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Bulletproof Screenwriting

Arnold Schwarzenegger Films Scripts Collection: Screenplay Downloads

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The amazing story of megastar Arnold Schwarzenegger is a true “rags to riches” tale of a penniless immigrant making it in the land of opportunity, the United States of America. Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger was born July 30, 1947, in the town of Thal, Styria, Austria, to Aurelia Schwarzenegger (born Jadrny) and Gustav Schwarzenegger, the local police chief. From a young age, he took a keen interest in physical fitness and bodybuilding, going on to compete in several minor contests in Europe. However, it was when he emigrated to the United States in 1968 at the tender age of 21 that his star began to rise.

Up until the early 1970s, bodybuilding had been viewed as a rather oddball sport, or even a mis-understood “freak show” by the general public, however two entrepreneurial Canadian brothers Ben Weider and Joe Weider set about broadening the appeal of “pumping iron” and getting the sport respect, and what better poster boy could they have to lead the charge, then the incredible “Austrian Oak”, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Over roughly the next decade, beginning in 1970, Schwarzenegger dominated the sport of competitive bodybuilding winning five Mr. Universe titles and seven Mr. Olympia titles and, with it, he made himself a major sports icon, he generated a new international audience for bodybuilding, gym memberships worldwide swelled by the tens of thousands and the Weider sports business empire flourished beyond belief and reached out to all corners of the globe. However, Schwarzenegger’s horizons were bigger than just the landscape of bodybuilding and he debuted on screen as “Arnold Strong” in the low budget Hercules in New York (1970), then director Bob Rafelson cast Arnold in Stay Hungry (1976) alongside Jeff Bridges and Sally Field, for which Arnold won a Golden Globe Award for “Best Acting Debut in a Motion Picture”. The mesmerizing Pumping Iron (1977) covering the 1975 Mr. Olympia contest in South Africa has since gone on to become one of the key sports documentaries of the 20th century, plus Arnold landed other acting roles in the comedy The Villain (1979) opposite Kirk Douglas, and he portrayed Mickey Hargitay in the well- received TV movie The Jayne Mansfield Story (1980).

What Arnold really needed was a super hero / warrior style role in a lavish production that utilized his chiseled physique, and gave him room to show off his growing acting talents and quirky humor. Conan the Barbarian (1982) was just that role. Inspired by the Robert E. Howard short stories of the “Hyborean Age” and directed by gung ho director John Milius, and with a largely unknown cast, save Max von Sydow and James Earl Jones, “Conan” was a smash hit worldwide and an inferior, although still enjoyable sequel titled Conan the Destroyer (1984) quickly followed. If “Conan” was the kick start to Arnold’s movie career, then his next role was to put the pedal to the floor and accelerate his star status into overdrive. Director James Cameron had until that time only previously directed one earlier feature film titled Piranha II: The Spawning (1981), which stank of rotten fish from start to finish.

However, Cameron had penned a fast paced, science fiction themed film script that called for an actor to play an unstoppable, ruthless predator – The Terminator (1984). Made on a relatively modest budget, the high voltage action / science fiction thriller The Terminator (1984) was incredibly successful worldwide, and began one of the most profitable film franchises in history. The dead pan phrase “I’ll be back” quickly became part of popular culture across the globe.

Schwarzenegger was in vogue with action movie fans, and the next few years were to see Arnold reap box office gold in roles portraying tough, no-nonsense individuals who used their fists, guns and witty one-liners to get the job done. The testosterone laden Commando (1985), Raw Deal (1986), Predator (1987), The Running Man (1987) and Red Heat (1988) were all box office hits and Arnold could seemingly could no wrong when it came to picking winning scripts. The tongue-in-cheek comedy Twins (1988) with co-star Danny DeVito was a smash and won Arnold new fans who saw a more comedic side to the muscle- bound actor once described by Australian author / TV host Clive James as “a condom stuffed with walnuts”. The spectacular Total Recall (1990) and “feel good” Kindergarten Cop (1990) were both solid box office performers for Arnold, plus he was about to return to familiar territory with director James Cameron in Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991). The second time around for the futuristic robot, the production budget had grown from the initial film’s $6.5 million to an alleged $100 million for the sequel, and it clearly showed as the stunning sequel bristled with amazing special effects, bone-crunching chases & stunt sequences, plus state of the art computer-generated imagery. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) was arguably the zenith of Arnold’s film career to date and he was voted “International Star of the Decade” by the National Association of Theatre Owners.

Remarkably, his next film Last Action Hero (1993) brought Arnold back to Earth with a hard thud as the self-satirizing, but confusing plot line of a young boy entering into a mythical Hollywood action film confused movie fans even more and they stayed away in droves making the film an initial financial disaster. Arnold turned back to good friend, director James Cameron and the chemistry was definitely still there as the “James Bond” style spy thriller True Lies (1994) co-starring Jamie Lee Curtis and Tom Arnold was the surprise hit of 1994! Following the broad audience appeal of True Lies (1994), Schwarzenegger decided to lean towards more family-themed entertainment with Junior (1994) and Jingle All the Way (1996), but he still found time to satisfy his hard-core fan base with Eraser (1996), as the chilling “Mr. Freeze” in Batman & Robin (1997) and battling dark forces in the supernatural action of End of Days (1999). The science fiction / conspiracy tale The 6th Day (2000) played to only mediocre fan interest, and Collateral Damage (2002) had its theatrical release held over for nearly a year after the tragic events of Sept 11th 2001, but it still only received a lukewarm reception.

It was time again to resurrect Arnold’s most successful franchise and, in 2003, Schwarzenegger pulled on the biker leathers for the third time for Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines (2003). Unfortunately, directorial duties passed from James Cameron to Jonathan Mostow and the deletion of the character of “Sarah Connor” aka Linda Hamilton and a change in the actor playing “John Connor” – Nick Stahl took over from Edward Furlong – making the third entry in the “Terminator” series the weakest to date.

Schwarzenegger married TV journalist Maria Shriver in April, 1986 and the couple have four children.

In October of 2003 Schwarzenegger, running as a Republican, was elected Governor of California in a special recall election of then governor Gray Davis. The “Governator,” as Schwarzenegger came to be called, held the office until 2011. Upon leaving the Governor’s mansion it was revealed that he had fathered a child with the family’s live-in maid and Shriver filed for divorce.

Schwarzenegger contributed cameo roles to The Rundown (2003), Around the World in 80 Days (2004) and The Kid & I (2005). Recently, he starred in The Expendables 2 (2012), The Last Stand (2013), Escape Plan (2013), The Expendables 3 (2014), and Terminator Genisys (2015).

Below are all the screenplays available online. If you find any of his missing screenplays please leave the link in the comment section.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple and Spotify’s #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar® Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

(NOTE: For educational and research purposes only).

THE LONG GOODBYE (1973)

Screenplay by Leigh Brackett – Read the screenplay!

THE TERMINATOR (1984)

Directed by James Cameron- Read the screenplay!

COMMANDO (1985)

Screenplay by Richard Tuggle – Read the screenplay!

PREDATOR (1987)

Screenplay by Jim Thomas and John Thomas – Read the screenplay!

TWINS (1988)

Screenplay by William Osborne & William Davies – Read the screenplay!

TOTAL RECALL (1990)

Screenplay by Ronald Shusett & Dan O’Bannon – Read the screenplay!

TERMINATOR 2: JUDGEMENT DAY (1991)

Screenplay by James Cameron & William Wisher – Read the screenplay!

TRUE LIES (1994)

Screenplay by James Cameron – Read the screenplay!

COLLATERAL DAMAGE (1994)

Screenplay by Ronald Roose – Read the screenplay!

THE EXPENDABLES (2010)

Screenplay by Sylvester Stallone and Dave Callaham – Read the screenplay!

TERMINATOR GENISYS (2015)

Screenplay by Laeta Kalogridis and Patrick Lussier – Read the screenplay!

 

 

 

 

 

 

BPS 257: Writing & Directing Legendary Science Fiction Films With Alex Proyas

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I can’t be more excited to bring you this episode. On today’s show, we have the legendary writer/director Alex Proyas, the filmmaker behind The Crow, Dark City, The Knowing, Gods of Egypt, and I, Robot.

Alex Proyas had a huge influence on my filmmaking life. The Crow was one of those films I watch a thousand times, in the theater, when I was in film school. He began his filmmaking career working in music videos with the likes of Sting, INXS, and Fleetwood Mac before getting the opportunity to direct The Crow.

The Crow was one of the first modern comic adaptations but as Alex puts it…

“The Crow was my anti-comic book movie.” – Alex Proyas

Both The Crow and Dark City had such a HUGE influence on films and filmmakers for years after their initial releases.

Alex’s films are visually dazzling and have the voice of a true artist. You can see a direct line from his genre-defining work to films like The Matrix, Alita: Battle Angel, Equilibrium, Underworld, The Dark Knight, Inception, and many others.

I feel Alex’s contributions to the visual aesthetics of modern cinema have been extremely undervalued. Director’s like Christopher Nolan point at Alex’s films as inspiration when he was putting together The Dark Knight Trilogy. The Matrix has Dark City visuals and style oozing from the screen.

Alex and I discuss his career, working within the studio system, dealing with insane interference in his creative vision, why he is shooting short films at this stage of his career, his new film studio The Heretic Foundation, and his misadventures in Hollyweird.

He has also launched a YouTube channel called Mystery Clock Cinema where he showcases his short films and amazing filmmaking tutorials, philosophies, and live streams.

Prepared to be inspired. Enjoy my thoroughly entertaining conversation with filmmaker Alex Proyas.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 2:59
I'd like to welcome to the show Alex Proyas. How you're doing Alex?

Alex Proyas 5:35
Yeah. Hi, Alex. Good, good. Good to see you. Good to speak to you.

Alex Ferrari 5:37
Yes, it's been I am. I'm honored that you come on the show. I'm a huge fan of, of your work. And I know the tribe is going to be very excited to kind of dig into your, your history, your films your process. You are easily one of the most visual directors of your generation without question. And I argue to say that a couple of your film specifically kind of changed the way films were shot afterwards. Because you could see the stylistically how things changed after the crow. And after dark city you just like okay, like the matrix picked up a couple of things from from, from, from the crow.

Alex Proyas 6:19
Thank you for saying thank you saying so and it's a mutual admiration society, because I very much appreciate what you're doing as well. I think it's awesome. In fact, I've been sort of scaring your your website. And I think it's a terrific initiative that you're taking. So well, well done to you, too.

Alex Ferrari 6:35
I appreciate that. Thank you very much, my friend. I appreciate it. So first and foremost, how did you get started in this insane business?

Alex Proyas 6:44
You know, it's something I've always wanted to do. I started making films when I was a kid like really 10 years old. All I got my first Super bugged the hell out of my parents. Being an only child, they eventually succumb to my, to my wishes and bought me a super eight camera. I didn't buy me a projector, I just save up for that myself. But yeah, that's how it all started is literally like, you know, my dad was a big film film goer. He loved he loved films and take me to like, totally inappropriate films for for a young kid, you know, like, you know, I remember him taking me to 2001 A Space Odyssey when I was when I was probably about six years old or something like that. And it completely, you know, fried my brain, you know, it was like, fried.

Alex Ferrari 7:30
So many more things are open, right? It makes so much more sense. Your whole career now makes so much more sense.

Alex Proyas 7:38
Yeah. That's right. I'm mainlined you know, big, bold commercial, experimental filmmaking, the ultimate trip, you know, at a very young age. So, you know, obviously had no idea what the hell was going on is most people didn't anyway. But, you know, from that moment, I think I went, you know, I want to, you know, the whole experience, the big screen, the big sound, and, conceptually, what was going on was just so amazing. It was transporting me into outer space. And so since then, I've always wanted to, you know, I think I started wanting to be an astronaut soon after that, and then I eventually over a few years, evolved into going well, I don't need to necessarily go there. I can create that sort of stuff, you know, and that's what I wanted wanted to do, you know, so yeah, that was the whole instigation of it all you know,

Alex Ferrari 8:28
And then you and then you your career started with music videos, correct?

Alex Proyas 8:35
Yeah, well, I I got into film school actually, you know, even before that, I was working in an animation studio straight out, you know, I left high school early. And because I knew what I wanted to do. And I went and worked at an animation studio for a while you know, and because I was kind of an I was kind of good at animating as well and and then got into film school and then through film school, we you know, we came out of film school, me and other my colleagues at the time and in Australia, there was very little potential for big getting in breaking into the film industry. Particularly as a young a young person, it was really hard to do, you know, there's so so few opportunities and still to this day, and in many ways, because we don't have the studio system, we have very limited you know, commercial TV stations and stuff to work with. So me and some friends set up this little company and by setting up a company I mean, we rented an office and rented a phone and a couple of chairs and a desk and and would sit in there and play card games all day long waiting for the phone to ring and you know, we had we had friends in bands, you know, we were all like the whole scene at the time was very music oriented. And so we started off doing a couple of you know, music videos for is for friends in bands and and you know, for like nothing for the cost of the film stock or whatever and, and eventually, you know, record companies started paying attention and I, you know, we got more and more into the music videos you know?

Alex Ferrari 10:04
Now what are some of the bad habits you picked up at film school?

Alex Proyas 10:09
Numerous numerous ones. Yeah, it's, uh, look, you know, it's it's a whole new world, you know, when I went through film school it was it's, that's like ancient history now, you know, people these days, I think, you know, YouTube is people's film school. And that can also teach you some very bad habits, I think as well, I hope you're not teaching anyone bad or

Alex Ferrari 10:29
I'm only teaching people how to survive, how to survive and thrive in the business, sir, I do not, I do not teach the latest camera here. I'm not teaching the latest camera gear and things like that. That's not my bag.

Alex Proyas 10:42
Yeah, because it's a bit of a trap these days that you, you know, because you can shoot on your phone and, you know, cut on your, your, your computer and stuff. And that's all it's fantastic. I mean, in my day, I just save up, you know, my dollars to buy a little cartridge, a separate film and wait for it to be processed in some other city and mailed back to me and stuff, you know. And, and, you know, these days with such a accessibility to the technology that makes film that's got its own fair share of traps as well. But in my day, I guess the bad habits that were taught to me, I mean, there were there were numerous, you know, and I was being taught by, you know, sort of, at that time, you know, experienced industry professionals who weren't really working in the industry anymore. anymore, they've, you know, started teaching and working as lecturers there. And, and I guess they were teaching us stuff, you know, the old school way of doing stuff. And a lot of that was how to how to sort of conform to the film industry and how to find your niche in the film in the traditional old fashioned old school, film, film industry, you know, and, of course, in Australia, they usually let you go and work for a TV station, you know, shooting news footage or something, you know, incredibly tedious like that, you know, and, you know, we were all you know, you're young and wanting to take over the world, and we wanted to be directors, we wanted to make films, you know, so, you know, I sort of quickly broke, broke away from that model to still subscribe to that, you know, I still go well, if you want to make a film, just make it Don't wait for someone to sanction you, or your budget or your story, you know, just get out there and do it. And so even in those days, that was my attitude, you know, even when there was no money, and, and, and I get to scrub the enough footage to shoot anything, you know. So that, you know, that's, I guess that was in a way, that's a good habit that was taught to me through bad habits in, in film school, you know, and I think it still holds true today, you know,

Alex Ferrari 12:47
So, so in the 90s. I mean, obviously, there was a couple movies you made that really just changed changed my world. One of them being the crow. And the you know, I was in film school when the crow came out. I was literally in films, it was 94. Right when 94 when the crow came out, correct? Yeah, yeah, I believe so. Yeah. And I saw, I must have seen it in the theater a dozen times. I just kept going back every weekend and watching it again and again. And that amazing soundtrack. That was so so good. That, you know, in many ways, that was one of the not one of the first we actually was an early comic book adaption it was before Hollywood became comic book happy. It was after Batman was obviously after Superman, but it was I think the first that's your indie comic adapted, correct?

Alex Proyas 13:38
I think I think so. Yeah. Yeah. spawn was also around the same. Yeah, I'm, I can't remember whether it came before us or after us. It was it was around a year. Yeah, it was about about the same. And, but you're looking Sorry, go ahead. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 13:54
no, no, I mean, it's gonna say like, how, first of all, how did you get involved with that? That film? Because, I mean, it was, it wasn't definitely not a guarantee blockbuster by any stretch of the imagination. But I guess there was something in the story that caught your eye.

Alex Proyas 14:12
Yeah, you know, look, I wasn't looking for guarantee blockbuster. I guess that was the part of the key. I, I, I got an agent in Hollywood. And this is like, you know, that many years between making music videos with my friends, you know, you know, one room office and and this of course, and through that interim, I'd made a lot of music videos, became very successful making music videos, some big acts and also started doing a lot of commercials as well. And I got involved with a company called propaganda films in LA that they got me out to LA that, you know, produced a bunch of very well established directors now. His name is you would know. And I started making videos in in In LA, and through that, I mean, I got an agent at the time, we're very open to finding new talent from the fields of music, video and commercials and, and I nabbed an agent, which was CIA, which is one of the powerful, very, probably the most powerful one at that time. And, you know, they started sending me out to producers and meeting producers and I got offers of, you know, films such as, and this is all on this. On the strength of my commercials, work, etc. I started getting offers things like Nightmare on Elm Street number something which I can't remember which number it was, I think it was five or four or something. And it's not really what I wanted to do. I mean, I've always been I've always had very specific, you know, desires and tastes of what I wanted to do, and I love genre, genre, but I like a particular kind of genre, you know, I'm not, I've never been a fan of franchise plugging into franchises or sequels or remakes or anything like that. I just because for me, the fun of it is building that world creating that world. That's what I get off on. You know, as we've cited 2001 A Space Odyssey transported me to another world. And so I've always, that's what I've always been hungry for, you know, creating that world is what's so. So basically godlike and exciting in filmmaking. So plugging into someone's already existing world and characters. And in situations, I just, I just can't get excited about it. You know? I like coming. Stuff like that comes out of my own imagination. So anyway, To cut a long story short. After I met all these producers, I spent like a month, every day meeting producers, where their producers would ask you this basic question, which is always impossible to ask. And I'm sure they're asking it to this day of young, young filmmakers, they say, Well, what sort of movies do you want to make? You know, these are people who, you know, haven't seen any of your movies or haven't? Don't you haven't made any movies? Yeah, you know, and of course, my answer to that as it still is to this day's good movies, right? I don't, I don't answer myself. It's a good answer. Anything other than that, you know, or excellent movies, but I want to make you know, because I like or I like all genres. I like all kinds of stories if they're good, you know. So eventually I after getting sick about asked answering that question for about a month, I walked into Ed Preston's office who is the producer of the CRO and he was refreshingly unique. He's a pretty eccentric guy, and really stood out after seeing or meeting all these very, you know, kind of Hollywood cigar chomping type types, you know, whatever they were, they were really cigar chomping, but that's kind of like,

Alex Ferrari 17:46
Oh, no, I know that I know exactly what you're talking about like that. And Hey, kid, all I need is a poster and a trailer and I'll sell anything.

Alex Proyas 17:53
Thanks. You met those guys too. But, um, yeah, so and he had this thing called the CRO, he gave me a script. And he gave me the comic book. And I didn't particularly care for the script. It was already a draft. But I liked the comic, I thought the comic was really intriguing. Again, and I really enjoyed working on love the central concept and, and because it was coming from a very unique, original place, you know, and I mean, I was in no, you know, I had no illusions about the fact that I was kind of reinterpreting the comic book genre, which was already as you as you've pointed out, established through Tim Burton's mainly through Tim Burton's Batman movies over the most recent offerings in that in that world up until that stage, so I went, well, this is kind of like Batman, but it's kind of like anti Batman, right? It's, it's, um, you know, even to the point of what he's wearing, the costume is wearing that long black leather trench coat. I, you know, Brandon, up with this idea, because I kept saying to him, this guy's got a got to have something like a cape, you know, wanting to have something that moves around, it's gonna be really cool in action scenes, if he's moving around, and capes gonna be great, but obviously, we don't want to Cape because it's not the character. And we want to sort of like an urban version of that a contemporary urban version of that. And we can, we came up with sort of, like full leather trench coat, which became a sort of iconic part of that genre ever since that point on, but that's where it came from. And it was kind of like reinterpreting some of the Batman stuff, you know, and just this the city, you know, it was like, the city that it took place, you know, was kind of like, you know, a sort of a Gotham City, noir ish kind of Gothic, you know, Gothic city, but it was kind of just completely flat up and sort of falling apart and just everything's broken down, nothing's working and people set it on fire now and again, you know, which again, made it Akin for me a contemporary kind of concept, you know, so that was kind of it was trying to ground the comic book genre and bring it into a contemporary, you know, milieu, like a contemporary sort of feel. Which was very much against the sort of, like, fantasy kind of over the top fantasy environments of, of, of something like that, you know, my reaction to that. And I also, you know, like it gets Richard Donner's Superman and all those Superman movies, which were very kind of light and frothy and kind of, you know, a little cheesy at times, you know, so I wanted to very much work completely go against that. And even Tim's movies were very, very, um, Phil had a tongue in cheek kind of, we can only do comic books with tongue in cheek, kind of humor, you know? Because, and, and, you know, I mean, teams not like these, but to a certain extent, it makes you feel like, the filmmakers are not taking the medium the concept seriously the medium seriously. So I wanted, I wanted my movie to be like, you know, serious, you know, I wanted, like drugs and staff and, you know, things that that are kind of scary and dangerous and real, real world, you know. So, yeah, that was my response to what had gone gone before.

Alex Ferrari 21:06
Yeah. And when you when you look at the CRO, which still ages is aged extremely well, I mean, extremely, extremely well, that, you know, I think you are right, I don't think the whole trench coat thing, which was so powerful, like it became a thing and so many sci fi, world building kind of films, I think equilibrium I think was one of them. And, obviously, the matrix. There wasn't a movie before then they had these kind of trench coats in a sci fi environment that I can remember. It was in this Gothic

Alex Proyas 21:36
We, we based it on Carlitos way, actually,

Alex Ferrari 21:40
Yeah,

Alex Proyas 21:40
because I'm a big 70s movie fan, right. And so actually, we were looking at, I've done that, I also do that in a robot with with wills wardrobe. And I remember we were looking at 70s movies and how they dressed the characters in sort of, like, you know, hard boiled crime type movies, you know, so pachino and Carlitos way had a had a, it wasn't full length. I mean, we came up with the full length because it was the was the cape thing, but we know I know for a fact that that didn't exist as an idea in science fiction or fantasy and, and it sure did exist afterwards. Matrix being the main one. But also, blade was also another one that had that sighs You know, every everyone everyone was doing it

Alex Ferrari 22:27
Afterwards. Yeah, afterwards it was but but i think i think you were right. I think the Crow was the first and you were the first really dark because I mean, Batman had a you know, Batman one and returns had a dark, you know, comic book field. But you're right, that's tongue in cheek was still there. But you were the first to really come up with a comic book adaptation that was dark. I mean, that's a dark film. dark, dark hero.

Alex Proyas 22:52
The hero man was dark, dark light. Yeah. Dark light. And it was dark, dark, you know? So.

Alex Ferrari 22:59
Right. Exactly. And I think Nolan's, I think Nolan's Batman was much more in the in the realm of the Crow, meaning that it's because, you know, dark night. It's a fairly dark, you know, as well.

Alex Proyas 23:13
Oh, yeah. Chris has been very influenced by angry Christmas, Tommy, he has been very influenced by both the Crow and dark city, you know, I mean, you know, the Batman Chris's Batman, it was it was partly because David Goya wasn't involved on the crows. There's a weird convoluted relay relationship there. David Goyer, who co wrote dark city with me was involved with writing Batman movies, Chris, and he was involved with writing the crow too. So he studied the Crow, the original Crow, it very intensely in order to write write the script for the crow crow movie. And so, you know, I was very amused to see literally lines of dialogue pop up in the Batman movies in Chris's Batman movies, the verbatim, you know, out of the original crow not out of David's grow out of micro, you know, that was quite that's funny, really. And, and, and yeah, Chris is, you know, I was I was working with Chris for a while, I wasn't really working with him, but we were developing something together for a short time. They didn't, they didn't work out. And he was, you know, going on about how influential dark city was, in particular to, to what he's what he's done. Now, he's very satisfied. And now I have much more success with myself.

Alex Ferrari 24:37
Great. Chris is doing okay. Chris is doing he's doing he's doing just fine. He's doing all right. Now. I remember buying the book, the white our I think it was the art of book or the movie book of the Crow, and flipping through it, and there was this character in it. That's not in the movie, which is the skull cowboy. Oh, you know, can you talk a little bit about what the legend of the The skull cowboy and wide never made because, you know, you shot footage of it, so why never made it?

Alex Proyas 25:04
Yeah, we shot him. Michael Berryman went through incredible, amazing, elaborate makeup to, to portray this character. And, you know, at the end of the day, I mean, you know, obviously, due to the tragedy on Necro, there was a lot of stuff we didn't get to shoot. And when we went back to Wilmington, to finish the movie, we had, I had to kind of rewrite and read, restructure to, in order to shoot the linking stuff, obviously, with our brand and to make it work somehow without him, you know, and digital tech, you know, lots be made out of the digital technology that we use to make it work, but it was very early days for that stuff. Oh, I remember very, yeah. Yeah, very, very stuff. You could do you get away with it. I mean, you know, it really big ended up being you know, take Brandon out of one scene, you know, rotoscope him out and put him into another that's really the extent of the digital, you know, expertise that we could could bring to bear you know, so yeah, the skull cowboy Hartley, but we'd shot the scenes with with with Brandon, one. I think one of the scenes, I think we there was another one that we hadn't actually filmed. We work with, it was just echoed I put this it just didn't seem to play in the story in the in the, it seemed like this other story worked fine. Without him, you know. And because he was used, he was used less than then we originally intended. And he needed a lot of VFX work to help him be more convincing than he was in the photography. I just, you know, every time he popped up in the film, when I was watching the Edit, he it felt like another movie, it just felt like something that was not the grounded kind of storytelling that I was trying to achieve. And And so yeah, I we had to excise him. And, you know, sadly, we try, we just removed him and looked at the Edit. And it seemed like the film didn't really suffer, because his role was really kind of like a, you know, an expositional one where he would appear until Eric Draven the rules of what was to happen, then, you know, he those, the, the, the important scene that I thought we couldn't live with is, is the the moment when Eric go is about to walk into the church at the end of the movie, to save Sarah, the young girl. And, and Scott cowboy appeared on the steps and said, you know, if you work for the living, you know, you're here to work for the dead, if you work for the living, you will be vulnerable, you will lose your powers. But it seemed like, you know, the people started to the audience felt that the crow itself was the source of Eric's power. And so when they shot the Crow, in the in the church, it felt like that, that was the moment when he lost his power. And then you know, it was such a simple way of doing it, rather than having a cow hollow the character appearing. Tell us the rule book at that, at that point in time.

Alex Ferrari 28:24
Sometimes it's sometimes it's difficult to let go of those babies that are there are beautiful on their own, like the skull cowboy by itself is a character might be but it might not work in the whole in the whole story. And that's where that's where the big boy pants Come on. And you got to go book that's got to go even though we love it.

Alex Proyas 28:41
Exactly, it's, it's a hard call to make usually always is a hard call to make. But you know, you make it sets that story where you make you make a different movie, one movie, when you write it, you make another movie, when you shoot it, you make another movie, in edit in Edit, and you have to try, you know, objectivity for a director is the most important thing and, and the tool that you lose most easily and most quickly, as you get stressed and tired. And you know, you struggle to make it all work through the production. It's very hard to retain that objectivity. But you've got to try and keep that because you need to be the audience as well as the filmmaker and you need to be able to step back and go, you know, is this really working? And if it's not, as you said, you say it's it needs VR, when in doubt, cut it out, you know?

Alex Ferrari 29:35
So you actually work there after the crow when when it was released, that obviously was a fairly a fairly big hit. If I remember correctly, did it did well at the box office obviously spawned a few sequels as well. You decided to do some shorts, right afterwards? Is it Can you tell me a little about the series of shorts that you did afterwards?

Alex Proyas 29:57
Yeah, the series called book of dreams, and I'm kind of still doing them all these years later, funny sort of way, not calling them that anymore. But

Alex Ferrari 30:06
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alex Proyas 30:17
I like shorts, you know, I like I like, I like your short form, it's like an author who makes he writes novels, it's great to write a short story now and again, you know, and get directly to this to the font of imagination, you know, in a short, so they can exist in a short story, you know, where you don't have to explain everything. And you know, it's just, so I started making these films based on people's dreams, and they weren't really there. I was pretending though, based on dreams. So just something I was coming up with, you know, but the the format is always someone who describes their dream on camera, and you then you see it acted out, and you can, a lot of them are kind of humorous, and you can kind of respond to what they're saying in a kind of visual, oddly, oops, you know, contradictory way visually. But they were fun. And, you know, we, we might have made three of them that were call that up to date. And they became increasingly more expensive until I found myself on, on the set of a 10 minute black and white science fiction 1950s science fiction homage, which was costing me $300,000 of my own money, right? And that's when I went, you know, this is just incredibly stupid, what I'm doing, and I've really got to get other people to pay for this stuff, you know, but look, it was, it was, it was, you know, they were great fun to do, and it was, you know, a part of my my kind of, you know, recovering from the horrific experience of the Crow and sing is sure a friend die. So it was a it was a way to reignite my love for being on the set and making films, you know, so I think it paid for itself, you know?

Alex Ferrari 31:59
Yeah. And, and there's, I mean, it when you're saying that you like and then I find myself on a set for $300,000. It's like, it comes to me, like I'm thinking to myself, because you're mad because we're all mad if you're a filmmaker, there's a spark, there's a spark of madness that there's no logic to, and it's so refreshing to hear that even directors like yourself, still have this madness in them. It hasn't been known.

Alex Proyas 32:23
We wouldn't be doing I mean, we are eternally shouldn't naive children, right? And it's we have to be do what we do. And you never grow up. If you grew up, you probably stopped doing because it's a mug's game from a from a financial point of view. I mean, that's the only thing that explains things like Francis is capable of making. Now there is no other explanation for why someone would a filmmaker, we put them themselves through that with their own financing and under such arduous circumstances, except for this absolute and explainable inexplicable love for this thing that we do, you know. But yeah, we're most of us, you know, dumber than we, then we

Alex Ferrari 33:09
Then the marketing the marketing problem than the marketing, the marketing or the branding, sir. It was so funny because I just had, I just had James v. Hart on a who wrote Dracula, and I was talking to him about and Coppola called up one night to James and said, James, I hate you. I hate the script. I hate the movie. I hate the actors. I hate you even more because you you wrote this damn thing and got me involved in this, come out here and see this rough cut it is garbage. And I'm like, and when anything we goes on to the deeper story. But the genius of that is is that if Francis Ford Coppola is having issues with a cut that that stage in his career, what hope is there for any of us? No matter who

Alex Proyas 33:55
Doesn't surprise me at all. You know, it's look, you know, and that's also to do with the fact that we you know, it's the reason it's such a wonderful medium is because you're always learning you never stop learning. Every film you make doesn't matter how many movies you make you make you're going to keep learning getting better and better at it and write stuff it doesn't mean the film's will always be better. But it because there's so many unknowables are going to making a movie, but certainly your craft as a director becomes better and your ability to to kind of navigate the whole process becomes improved, you know? But I think that's the thing is like you just you know, you're always going to doubt yourself. That's why it's so destructive when you end up with a studio that's doing all doing all the doubting, you know, which might be a good segue to go into iRobot I don't know. Well, no, because I want to I want to do anyways filmmakers.

Alex Ferrari 34:49
Yeah, I wanted to I want to touch on. I wanted to touch on dark cities before we get to iRobot because because you forgot about that little movie called dark city. Dark city was one of those films that has become a cult classic, because I remember when it came out it if I remember correctly, please remind me it wasn't definitely wasn't a runaway hit. But it was Oh, no, not at all. Not at all right. It'd be like people didn't know what to do with it like that, you know, and it was well beyond its its heyday. But it is so visual, and so beautifully crafted. And up to that point. I mean, I can't remember other than maybe the crow of something being so viscerally visual. In its storytelling tech. I mean, you mean, you look at dark city, there is a direct line to the matrix. Like there's like, I'm not saying that they took anything, but I'm just saying that there was definitely inspiration picked up from dark city, you could just, you could just see the you can see the through line. So clearly, yeah. And you and you, and you know, and that was the that was new line. So that was Warner's at the time. And you know, how does like a movie like that obviously would never get greenlit today do the crow would have been greenlit?

Alex Proyas 36:07
Oh, yeah, the crow would have a slightly easier time because it's based on something

Alex Ferrari 36:11
IP, right?

Alex Proyas 36:12
Original like that. It would be really hard to make, you know, very, very hard to make.

Alex Ferrari 36:19
What was the budget? By the way? What was the budget of dark city, if you mind me asking?

Alex Proyas 36:24
He was like 25 million or something at the time, which was even at the time was was not much, you know, it should have been probably at least 75 million for what we were trying to do in the film. I remember just the visual effects budget itself was $1 million, which sounds like an Austin Powers

Alex Ferrari 36:41
Is that is that all of us, it was only $1 million,

Alex Proyas 36:44
A million a million dollars was the entire budget, the VFX budget, you know, because we built a lot of a two layer sets and stuff and barely managed to well, you know, we we shot. We shot as much as we could. And we basically had to they shut us down we because we didn't we've just ran out of days. And they had to give us an extra some extra money like another million bucks. I mean, to get to bring the actors back and finish it. You know, I remember, they basically new line basically said, That's it, you know, I was saying, but I'm not done. I go We'll show us the cut, come over and show us that card. And we'll decide whether you're done or not, you know. And I showed it to them. And they said, well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a bit of missing I go well, there's a reason for that, because we're not done. So anyway, they eventually gave me some more money to finish the bits that were missing. And but yeah, it's it was a it was a low it was a low budget movie. There's no question it was it was harder. What we were doing in that for roughly double the budget of the CRO but what we were trying to do was actually much much, much harder than that.

Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yeah, I mean, look, I remember what you built a lot of the you did a lot of modeling in the CRO, if I remember correctly to right, you did models of the city and that and that's why that that's such an MC because that was all pre CG worlds. Really, I think Jurassic Park had just hit. So yeah, that whole world is it was just starting to come up. So you did a lot of practice. And I know you did a lot of practicals on on dark city as well. You know, anyone listening who has not seen dark city Do yourself a favor and watch it because you'll see it and go, Oh my god, there's so many movies have taken from this. It's kind of like you watch the matrix and the like, oh, everyone's stolen from the matrix. Like all it's it seems passe. But the matrix was leading one of those one of those films that kind of just, you know, blew the doors open on a lot of stuff. And so many people just took it and took it into I mean bullet time Jesus Christ.

Alex Proyas 38:44
Yeah. So you know, the matrix didn't invent bullet time. But time was invented on commercials, the gap and just to take a little bit away from the matrix for a moment,

Alex Ferrari 38:56
They have enough. enough.

Alex Proyas 38:57
Where I went terribly wrong in in dark cities. I should have had some more kung fu in which I think I would have been probably more successful

Alex Ferrari 39:04
If you would have a kung fu Absolutely.

Alex Proyas 39:06
Yeah. Yeah. So So um, yeah, it's all it's all related. Yeah, no dogs. It was definitely an influence, though. As you as you rightly pointed out, it was a disaster at the box office is partly a disaster because he took us they kept putting it off the release. Originally, it was to be released maybe a year before it came out. And they went. They said, oh, there's this film called The Titanic coming out. And it looks like it's going to be it's going to do Okay, so, listen, I think originally going to open on the weekend, the opening weekend of the Titanic, you know, and then we'd let's put it off a couple of months, right? And then a titanic came out. And of course, we noted that the Titanic and it kept building and getting bigger and bigger and building. And they kept saying, oh, we'll put it off another couple of months. Again, you know, and eventually it ended up being like, as I say, I think it was eight or nine months later than the rest Release. Now, wow, when the film was eventually released, you know, because they were just staying away from the Titanic, they had no idea how long they'd have to wait to stay away from the Titanic, you know? Yeah. So yeah, that was that was kind of amusing. But it's also the film was not it was not really promoted very well, because the studios themselves didn't really get it, you know, no one got it. No one's got the film. And you know, it was even like the trailer that came out was like a I think it was a good trailer I liked the trailer was done very creatively done. But it was didn't really tell you anything about the story. It was just a bunch of images, you know, and so people, people were kind of, you know, if you don't tell them something about a story, it doesn't matter how pretty the image the pictures are, they're just not gonna go and say,

Alex Ferrari 40:49
Can you?Can you remind me there's a there's a French director, who did a movie and it reminds me a lot of dark city. He eventually did an alien. He did alien resurrection. And they brought him over. Children. Is it

Alex Proyas 41:02
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 41:03
What's his name?

Alex Proyas 41:03
That some? Yeah, um,

Alex Ferrari 41:06
What was the movie?

Alex Proyas 41:07
Like when he's name but but the movie children are called city of Lost Children said I was so scared of beauty beautiful film, absolutely gorgeous imagery. You know, and, and, you know, cat came for dark city, but he was really conceptually very different. Oh, you know, there's some visuals. Hilarious. But, but yeah, I mean, we always my film was more about we were kind of riffing on metropolis, Fritz Lang's Metropolis without question. And Akira. era to ascending. So, you know, that's kind of more my it,

Alex Ferrari 41:48
Would you ever have would? Would you ever make akira if they offered it to you?

Alex Proyas 41:53
I'm not a huge fan of I mean, I love a cure. I love I love the comic, and I love the movie. But I'm not a huge fan of remaking stuff. Because I kind of go Well, I mean, it's been done. It's been done, it's been done really well. And so wise, why would a Hollywood version, particularly in our current climate, data, I just don't? I don't I don't think it's possible. You know, I mean, look at what, what happened to Ghost in the Shell? You know, that's a classic example. Yeah. You just can't, you know, this stuff can't be done. Can't be overly refined. If to put it nicely, overly developed, you have to go with the raw ingredients that you've you've got to work with. And there's I don't think there's anyone in Hollywood now, who would finance such a version of any of this stuff? You know, I just don't think it's possible.

Alex Ferrari 42:51
So after dark city, you know, which is obviously did not do well at the box office for that the reasons we spoke about, but yet still very well respected for the craft. And the film. I know. I mean, and you please tell me if I'm wrong. I know a lot of other filmmakers respect it, and were influenced by it. How did the town treat you after, you know, having a, you know, essentially a box office disappointment? And how long did it take you to get out of that? Because I always am fascinated with you hear the stories of directors gone out of it? When you've made a few movies since then, so I'm obviously someone games. You've made a couple more. But that doesn't mean it just out of curiosity, like how does that how does the town treat you? Because I mean, I know after a big hit, they treat you one way. And after a disappointment that you another way? I'm just curious, and I don't know, obviously, it's a different time period to I was in the 90s. But just curious.

Alex Proyas 43:49
Yeah, a different mentality, where people were willing to take chances, but only to a certain extent, you know, and the only reason they took a chance on dark city is because the crow had been so successful. That's really how it works, you know, you know, you make one hit, and you theoretically you get the license to do something that pushes the envelope a little bit. But I'd argue these days, that's less and less likely. Because these days, hollywood have determined that original fantasy and science fiction just doesn't work, commercially speaking, and sadly, to a certain extent, when it comes to big budgets in the cinema release the big screen release, they are probably right. You know, it's sad that we're in that place. And it said that I think the superhero movies have put us in that place. With the audiences but there you go, that's, that's it is what it is, you know. So yes, you're, you're absolutely right. You know, I was, I was courted after the CRO and everyone was cool. The studios were calling me saying, you know, we'll make anything that you want. And I had this thing already written dark city had written actually written dark city before the crow. And I said, here's this script, and this is what I want to do, and they I'd usually say, Well, what else do you want to do? You know? So I eventually found people who and we went through quite a development process through various studios, you know, Disney were on board at one stage and believe it or not, and, and then we ended up in new new, I think we, we ended up in new line and, and, you know, they were like it was all about the casting and Mike DeLuca and Bob shade, a new line, we're like, we don't care what the casting is, you can have whoever you like, as long as you support them with some, some names, you know. So I got got to cast Rufus Sewell, which was terrific, because that's who I wanted to be in the film. And yeah, and then after that, after the course, being such a disappointment. The, you know, it was very hard to to make the next one, you know, so I went back to Sydney and made this film called garage days, a very low budget, Ozzy Ozzy movie. I've got to say, though, that the dark city is built in a huge following over the over the years, I mean, it's often to rival the CRO as well. And it's, you know, the increasing rate of offers to do sequels or a T, you know, the big one is right now, because cinema is such in such a poor state is to do a TV version of like a series version of dark city, which I've turned down several over the years, but more and more, I'm thinking maybe that's a good idea, you know. So that's, that's quite a turnaround from, from a film that did bad. Bad box office, it's quite a, it's a, it's a great thing about I mean, look, I have, you know, physical media to thank for that, as we all do, which allows a film to have a shelf life is not about it's not just about its opening weekend, and if you make particular kinds of films that are challenging, not not the sort of the norm, that sort of slam dunk, then physical media has traditionally been a great support of that kind of long process of your success process. You know, and duck city is a classic example of that, you know, so many people, people over years discover more people discover it, you know, and it builds its its, its fan base.

Alex Ferrari 47:28
Yeah, well, I am, I'll be first in line to see the dark city series. So let us know when it's available. And I think and I think honestly a series for, if I may be so bold to say a series in with with someone in your, in your hands, you might have the budget and the freedom, especially with certain streaming services to do what you want to do with, hopefully not as much interference, because I feel that and we'll get into iRobot in a second, which kind of leads into that. I always I've always felt since since I started following your work is that like, you are obviously a very unique filmmaker, you have a very specific vision, you the specific stories you'd like to tell, but a lot of times they just don't leave you alone. And, and because of that, they just don't leave you alone. Like, you know, like, Tim, like Tim, I you know, I you know, I quote someone like Tim Burton, who has a very unique style, that's very him. And, you know, he built up a lot of credibility after Beetlejuice and then Batman, and then in then he started to be able to do his thing and they left them alone for the most part. But you never got like, really left alone. Like I would love to see you with a $200 million film where they walk away with an original concept and your school just let the man do that to ya. just for clarity. If anyone's listening with a million hot in their pocket, Alex would love but that but I always felt that I'm like my God, thank you for putting that message out. I'm putting it out there anyone to you'll take 175 I think I think we can work with 175 songs.

Alex Proyas 49:11
Hell, I take a lot less if they if he left me alone I take way less than that.

Alex Ferrari 49:15
But you're one of those artists one of those filmmakers that that you just need to tell your story and trust that you're going to go where you are and with the crowd Did you have a fair a fair good amount of creative control over that?

Alex Proyas 49:28
Yeah, I mean, look, I was I've been I was very lucky to a certain point which is why so blindsided when I did iRobot left me alone on they left me alone on it and everything and you know, this came out of a career of of commercials chosen or I'd achieved success in advertising and music videos where they also left me alone. So how I just thought that's what a director got, you know, I thought they just give you this film and sometimes they don't give you a good enough budget but they creatively they just they just bugger off and let you do your thing you know and and I've made for features No. Yes. For us. Yeah, for I made four features under those auspices and before I'd made iRobot. And so suddenly I was in, but suddenly I was in with the big boys. Right, suddenly, I had a huge budget. Would you start? Double it? It's definitely a double edged sword. You know, I mean, you get all these great toys to play with and stuff, but but then they're not, you know, and I also had the misfortune. I think I've working with one of the worst studio regimes at the time, in terms of micromanagement, right. And so, so suddenly, I had the studio, multiple people in the studio breathing down my neck at every stage, and actually, the weirdest thing is they cost the production money, because I want to move ahead with a certain thing, like, building a car, for example, for the hero to drive in. We were designing room, you know, wanting to build a car, and they're basically just holding us back to the point where it just became so expensive, and actually became impossible. And then we had to go elsewhere to get this car made in time, you know, just stuff like that. And I just found that just utterly infuriating that I was having to challenge I was being constantly challenged creatively and having to constantly challenge the studio and on a on a budgetary level, actually, to save the film money, you know, which I just thought was just absolutely insane. You know, because I'm a very responsible guy, I'm a, I'm a working class guy grew up in a pretty poor situation. And, you know, in working class in Australia means kind of, you know, poverty line, almost, you know, so I'm, I'm not, I take any very seriously, I don't waste it. And I like to make sure that it all ends up on the screen, whatever amount of money I've got, you know, so having a studio that we're taking these stupid decisions that would cost that production money, I just got, you know, I saw it as a personal affront, I'm going well, this is more money that my movie has to make for these these guys in order to be a success, you know, but yeah, it was a whole different world. And it was it was not a definitely not a good experience on any on any level. So I warn people that it's a that it's a you know, it's a it is a dangerous double edged sword, it's it's a it's a very ego gratifying you have all the big toys, but you get your hands get, get, I described it as a, you're running a marathon, which is what you do on a on any movie, big or small budget. But in this case, the marathon is all the studio execs lined up on either side of the road, and they throw chairs on Sunday, as you're running, like, wow, that's kind of the additional part of a big budget, big budget movie, you know. And because it is about, you know, you're right, I have a specific vision and a specific way of doing things. And that's what I like to do. And I like to make movies that couldn't be done by anyone other than me. A, you know, it's not ego, because I just happened to see things in a certain way. And I want to do things that feel unique, you know, so often i'll i'll i'll have I'll avoid a particular storyline, or a plot or a visceral event or a visual, because I've seen it done by other people. And I'll try and try and do it in a unique way. So it's an experimental, it's sort of an experimental approach, but it's, it gets more refined as I go, as I know more through the years, but I that that to me, is kind of what I bring to the to the, to the show. So when they're sick second guessing me and telling me to do my job. I feel like well, why am I even here? You know, what, what is it? Why do you want me to do it? Surely, you know, you want someone who's more bendable to your will as a studio executive, you know, who will give you exactly what others can give you You're exactly what you want. Want, you know which is even more stunning concept because often they don't know what they want, you know? And that's partly why I haven't done a lot of you know, after I robot I didn't do a lot of I haven't done any big big Hollywood studio movies. You know, I've Gods of Egypt was a big budget movie, but it was a huge indie movie, you know, there's a way they put the financing together. But again, even that was you know, from a creative point of view was really arduous because and it became clear to me that beyond a certain budget is not a playground that I should be playing in really because it's an absolute kind of correlation between how high the budget is and how much fear that the the studio executives have and fear is not a good way to create. It really isn't, you know, you don't want fear. You've got to be fearless in the way you create the best, the best acting comes out fearlessness out of being brave, and doing and going where you feel creatively is necessary. And it's the same with with a director with a filmmaker is you've got to be brave, you know. And you can't be brave when every, every other factor on the boat around you is like we've got work. We're gonna drown you know, I you can't you know eventually your your your bravery gets gets whittled down if you're the only guy saying, you know no we will we'll make it we're going to be okay guys, we're going to make it you know. So anyway, that's it. So it's just like, you know

Alex Ferrari 55:41
I mean, you were working with one of the biggest movie stars in the world at the time Will Smith, as well. And it was it was fun working with with Will?

Alex Proyas 55:50
Yeah, wills wills, an absolute wonderful person. And, and we had a great time, you know, and honestly, if we hadn't been on that film, and I'd had someone on who was less enjoyable to be making film with I may have actually actually walked off that film. That's how far they pushed me during production. Yeah, but but, but will will made you know, would often make my day and to the point where he made me laugh so much. Sometimes I'd have to say, just please stop with aquilo because it's on the on the video screen. But yeah, now he's, he's terrific.

Alex Ferrari 56:29
Yeah. And you forgot the actor who played the robot. What's his name? He was in Ireland. Ellen today. Oh, my God, what an amazing performance. I think that was the first time people were starting to have a conversation about letting go like nominating actors for their performances.

Alex Proyas 56:47
Alan's great you know, yeah, he, um, he and he's, and he's, he's done a few other robots, I think since.

Alex Ferrari 56:54
No, he's Yeah, he's he's he turned up some Oh, calves robot for something. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Proyas 57:00
This was very early days. I mean, Gollum had been had been, I think, had been around for one one movie, early Golem. But it was again, it was also early days for this kind of, you know, performance capture technology. And, and it was kind of have an amusing story. story to tell about Alex who we were, the I this is after the shoot, we were working out of digital domain that's in, in, in Venice in in Los Angeles, and I I'd be working with them as they're animating Allen's character, sonny. And I would go for a walk down at the beach occasionally just to get some some fresh air and get out of a dark room, which is what you spend your life in, you know, and I bumped it up into Alan and Alan turns Allen lives down there, you know, and, and I go, Hey, come come and have a look at what we're doing, you know, come and have a look at this incredible footage that we're making with your your character and, and he was really excited, he came along and we and we walked into a theater of their digital domain, sit down next to each other and they start running shots from from, you know, the film, the fully realized Robert Allen's like, this is amazing. It looks fucking amazing. It's great, whatever. And then and so then he's still there when we then go into the next part of our, our what we're doing, which is where I guide the animators in terms of recreating the Allen's performance to the CG animation. And in those days before we had fair facial captures, actually kind of keyframe animation, the way they did that is I basically, they'd look at Alan's performance that we filmed, and then they'd reproduce it with the with the sunny robot, right. So what that meant is, they would put it up on the big screen one side of a bit like our podcast right now. One side is Alan and the other side is this is the the crude version of the robot that they're animating in middle in the middle of animation. And we'd literally look at every frame and they'd show me the shot and I go great or I'd go you know what on frame 13 I think he raises his eyebrow just a tiny bit more and he like there's a little twitch twitch in his nose gives a little bit of vulnerability or whatever and we look at it over and over again and they go the direct animation right he goes you're right there is a twitch in his in his left nostril for about three frames from frame 13 to frame 16. And after we do this for like about 10 minutes Alan, Alan Tatiana challenges. I've got to put a go and go. Yeah, okay, well, thanks for coming. Yeah, I'm sorry, gotta go but this is like, this is insane. I'm going to I'm going nuts. This is going to destroy my acting for all time. The fact that someone is sitting here all these guys sitting here, looking at my performance like a frame at a time studying or not I just can't I can't take it. I'm sorry, I, you know, I've ruined that lives forever.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:08
I mean, it's true, but it's it's true. I mean, actors are, you know, actors, you know, are actors. And if you if you're telling them that, like, oh, we're gonna analyze every frame of your nostril, before shot, forget it, you'll never be able to get up there. It's just tough enough to be an actor, let alone being that kind of skirt. That's amazing. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So So, you know, again, we discussed those that dream of working in Hollywood making these big giant monster films. What, you know, we I think we talked a little bit about it. But are there any other misconceptions about working on such large projects? Is it just a loss of control? Because as that budget goes up, and there's very few directors, even some of the biggest directors in Hollywood, have had issues from Spielberg to Fincher. I mean, they are they all have, they all have What is it? Like?

Alex Proyas 1:01:13
I mean, part of the biggest problem right now is they don't want to work with guys like us, right? Because I'm talking about most of the movies that get done. I'm not talking about Chris Nolan, people, people like that, who they sanctioned and can spend big budgets on original ideas. Is there there's such rarities now real, really, you know, the the in particularly in the sort of science fiction domain, you know, it's, it's, they don't want to work with I think they want to work with people who are. I mean, I call them puppet masters, right? I call these producers people like the Marvel guys, and whatever. I call them, call them puppet masters. And there's a lot of sort of media coverage of the fact that, you know, they'll bring in a director, but they won't let the director do the, you know, shoot the action scenes. For example, I'm like, What the fuck saddle about I mean, it's like, because they've worked out, I mean, they've worked out their formula, when you do a Marvel movie, it's like, You're, you're a TV director doing an episode of a series, right? They've worked it all out, it's one of the reasons I haven't done, you know, episodic TV, because you walk onto the set, the actors know what they're doing. They know the characters, they got the costumes worked out, they got, they got everything worked out on, someone's going to shoot the action sequences for you. We've already pre visit them and worked, it all worked out all the shots. So yeah, well, what is it that a director is actually doing, you know, the scripts written? You can't change a word? So it's like, what? Well, why are you there? What is it that you're actually providing in that situation as a director, so I kind of go, Well, you know, the right to work, the producers are right to work with people that they can plug into that mission in, who have a, who have some kind of progress they want to make in their careers to allow them to do such a big, you know, ego gratifying projects, to make 150 zillion dollars, so that then they can maybe go and do something that they that they really want to do that they really love, you know. So I mean, I think from a career point of view, that makes sense. Unfortunately, I've already been through all that. So all I really care about these days is I you know, I don't particularly I'm not particularly driven by by finance, I mean, so I mean, it doesn't really matter money, they could offer me to do something like that, really. And as I say, I'm just not the right person to do that sort of stuff. You know, I would rather just sit at home and write and work out how I am going to make my films that I really, really care about, or if there's a great script that's in the, in the US, you know, long Ranger, I know, they're gonna let me do what I what I do, you know, I have much greater set and job satisfaction from that sort of stuff, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:02
Now, do you, uh, what advice would you give directors about directing actors on set? You know, because you've worked with some, some great actors, you know, any advice on directing and how you direct actors?

Alex Proyas 1:04:15
That's a very hard question to answer, because it really depends on where you're at in your career. And where and who the actors. I mean, every actor is different there is there is variable as every individual, you know, a lot of people ask me about storyboarding. And it's the same answer, which is, you know, I know how I work with storyboarding, but I can't give, you know, new filmmakers that advice because it doesn't, it's not what will work for them, you know. So yeah, it's hard to say I think the only nutshell thing I could offer is, is as I say, every actor is different. Every actor has different requirements in order to achieve what they do to get the best out of them. What I've learned over the years is Try and find what it is that they need, and try and try and give them what they need the circumstances that they need. And only and only so much, you know, I think, you know, the one, the one, the one that Dane, maybe new directors have, or the one or the one cautionary note I'd give them is, don't over direct an actor, don't feel like it's your job to sit there and specify every detail and give them line readings or whatever the whatever you might be inspired to do. If you're a writer, you might, you might be inspired to tell want them to say the words etc. You know, if you're having to do that you've picked the wrong actor, because, you know, the key really is to find the right actor for your, for your role for the cat for the role, and then let them work their magic as as studios interfere with director's vision and the frustrations that I've expressed from that. I'm sure actors experienced the same thing from directors, you know, and so don't don't overdo it. You know, and, and, and, you know, I mean, I have, I've had situations in the past, working with less experienced actors where they come up to me, and they say, one guy, one chap, in particular, we just said, I'm, I don't, why don't you ever say anything to me? Why don't you give me any sort of direction, whenever I go? Well, it's because I like what you're doing. Right? And so I don't want to fuck up what you're doing. So that's why I want you to, you know, if I start saying stuff to you, it's because I'm not happy with where it's going. But, um, and but I'm really happy, you're doing great job, just keep doing your great job, you know. And that's a example of I cast the right person for the role. They did exactly what I was hoping they would do, and they keep doing it well, and then it's, you know, you temper certain moments, you tweak certain scenes, you give them a one little bit of direction, and have them look at, you know, do you know, do it in a slightly different way, unlock it, but, but really, the rest of it, there's no magic, there's no trick to it, there's no, it's, it's, it's kind of just let the magic happen, you know, and, and if it's working, don't don't touch it, leave it, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:07
what is? Do you rehearse? Do you do rehearsal?

Alex Proyas 1:07:13
I do. Um, so I do look, for me, the most important part of the actor director process is what happens before you come on to the set, which is, through the about, I like to have at least three weeks with the actors before we start shooting, and what we'll traditionally do is start start with a table read, do move very quickly on to discussing character, discussing scenes, breaking down scenes, etc, etc. And we'll do that, you know, half a half a day in the morning, usually, and then the rest of the day, the wardrobe makeup pair, everyone else has them for whatever they're doing. But I'm, I think that's, that's the most important part for me. And that's more often it's not so much about actually acting it out, as about discussing in incredible detail backstory, and, and building those characters so that we come out of that process with them, the actors, each actor, owning in their character, and understanding their character, even if it's something that I've written, understanding the character better than I do, you know, or at least as well as I do. And that's when I start to trust them, I build trust, you know, we build mutual trust, I start to trust their opinion and their view of things. And sometimes I'll realign my, my view a little bit. And it all comes through that process at early disk and it's more about discussion, you know, than anything else. And if there's lines that don't gel eventually when they say to me, I don't think my character would say that which I'm very happy to hear from from an actor and I hear it often because I encourage that sort of collaborative spirit I'll will change it will change the line and or if they can explain to me why their character wouldn't say you know, I won't just do it willy nilly, but you know, and that to me is the that's the creative process as a collaboration where you bounce between between actor and director. The reason I like working with people like Will Smith so much and Nicolas Cage also is that they're fully storytellers. They're not just acting their their character they are they they're aware that they are integral to telling your story or telling the story and that's why I love both of those guys so much because they really bring that quality to their to their work, you know, and I'm sure with other directors as well, we and you worked on the film obviously called the knowing with Nick with Nick Cage. How is it to work with Nicolas because he's obviously become almost a cultural icon in the the performances that he puts out sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:50
I mean, he is a very, I mean, I absolutely love on the Wild at Heart and I mean, so many mean raising Arizona all these amazing performances over the years. How Is it to work with? Like, he seems like? I mean, I'm sure it's not, but I seem I see, I think he's like lightning in a bottle, you just kind of try not be able to direct them in a proper way.

Alex Proyas 1:10:10
I'll describe him as the Ferrari, you've acted where actors have, you know, four gears, he's got six, you know, anything go go there, if you need him to, you know, speaking, you're being brave. I mean, this is a thing about Nick and why he is such a kind of guy, you know, he's incredibly brave, you know, and to him paramount to, to, to the film is great story, you know, and it's not about him looking a certain way or acting in a certain way so that the audience like him, or or any of those those considerations, or big movie star people make, you know, he will go where the story dictates, and he'll go away into whether the story dictates you know, so he's completely brave, and fearless with with what he's doing. And that's a pretty much a unique thing in with actors of his stature, you know, so he's a wonderful combination of old fashioned character actor. When movie star, Ill, you know, they don't make him like Nick anymore. And that's why he's, he's, he's great to work with. And on top of that, I mean, he's, uh, you know, Nick is a guy's a, sees a surrealist, you know, he has a really brilliant mind. He's, he's really funny. And he's totally, totally aware of all this stuff. Everyone's kind of been going on about with his with his, with his, over the top crazy performances, but he's trying to push the envelope into different areas to keep himself fresh, you know, and it's kind of exactly what I do with films, you know, like, after dark city, I made this thing, erasure days is low budget, Ozzie Comedy, Romantic comedy, and go figure, the guy who made the Crow and dark city would make a romantic comedy, you know, and I did that for a very specific reason, because I want to keep exploring and pushing into new areas, and I don't want I don't want to feel secure. I know how to do this. I want to feel nervous in like, you know, excited about experimenting and coming up with new stuff. And that's very much the way he approaches his performances. He's He's a, he's a very brave explorer of new new frontiers, you know, so it's about it's about the thing I could say about any actor really, that I've, that I've worked with.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:38
Now, what do you wish someone would have told you when you started out in the business that you didn't know, now? Or that you didn't know when you started?

Alex Proyas 1:12:47
Don't go there. No, no.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:50
Run away. What did you do and get a real job

Alex Proyas 1:12:53
Run away Yeah, no, well, as we pointed out, that's impossible to say to any filmmaker, and it's impossible to say to any, certainly any young filmmaker, because when we're young, we we don't even believe we're going to die. You know, we're, we're a bortles. Right? It's, it's, you know, you know, look like, it's one of the things I just don't know, that you you can ever really, and as I say you constantly learning, so you never really, completely work it out anything anyone does. And you got to kind of go through it to go Okay, now I understand. Now, I understand what some of those other filmmakers experienced filmmakers, said what they did it, I try not to discourage people, because that's the worst thing you can do. You know, I think it's really important that we retain, you know, extra excitement for for this, this, you know, this craft, this is some, some thing that, making movies and you know, my excitement came from, as I say, the big screen, the big sound and that immersive social experience of going to movies, and it's incredibly depressing that we're looking at the sort of maybe looking at the end of that. And it's something that I try not to think about too much, you know, because it just does spiral into depression. But, um, look all I can all you know, I'm not answering your question just because I don't know that I can. I think all you can, all you can do is a, you know, be true to your own self, you know, be true, Be true to your own originality, right? Tell a story that you feel really, really passionate about and stick to that, like crazy. Don't let anyone talk you out of it out of if you want to make a particular killer film, that particular story. Don't let anyone talk you out of it. Just do it because the fact is, everyone He's gonna try and talk you out of it, you're gonna get knocked back by every single person. I mean, look at Star Wars is a classic example. Every studio knocked knock George Lucas back, and he finally managed to convince one last person to make the film. So that's how fucking wrong these people are, and they continue in it, today, they're more wrong than ever before, they have no idea, they wouldn't have an idea of a good script to fulfill over on them, you know, if they fell over fell over it, you got to just stay true to what you believe as an individual is having a story that you are about telling, you know, I've got this thing called a new country that I'm trying to make. I've been trying to finance it now for a couple of years. And you know, it's it's, it's, again, a very, it's a very bold science fiction piece. Genre bashing blending thing that I've not seen anyone do before. And that's why I'm excited about making it, you know, and I just, you know, I have to convince others of that, which is the eternal struggle that film filmmakers have, you know, so that's the thing is like, you don't you know, you got to be, you got to be thick skin, and you got to be tough, and you got to just, you know, you gotta have a real belief in your own vision, you know, that's the most important thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:19
And again, if it was 175 million work for that movie. I mean, if it does, we'll put the word out. Let's see if we Yeah, I mean, we'll get that crowdfunding for you. I do that 100 for 150. Okay, you're gonna bring it down. I appreciate that. Now, can you tell me about, tell me about the Heritage Foundation.

Alex Proyas 1:16:40
It's a studio that I've built in Sydney, which is a very sensibly a virtual production studio. And, but it's a it's basically an umbrella for all aspects of, of the production. So we, we, we edit we, we do all the VFX we shoot it without using Unreal Engine. And, and it's basically a way to, to make an entire film, you know, it also comes down to logistics and the budget, exponentially you have you I can work with small crews, but I can put them into environments and situations that are there. I don't reduce the scope of the scope is bigger than ever before. So for example, we've done this little short film, film, 20 minute film, finishing up, which we're hoping will be released in January of next year, which is rapidly approaching. There's a trailer for it, it's called mask of evil apparition is a trailer on YouTube at the moment. And it's a it's all been done virtually. And people are saying it's it looks like dark city and, and there's for that, because it's kind of partly intentional, I think a lot of it is is is as the imagery is as intricate as dark city, but dark city, we built real sets. And this way, we're creating computer generated sets. But I think, you know, visually it looks to my eye looks very, very similar. So you know, and it's a fraction of the budget that we spent on on it.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:19
So this is the same, this is the same technology that Mandalorians using.

Alex Proyas 1:18:24
It's the same technology. It's it's our Ozzie stripped down indie version, because obviously Mandalorian has the all the all the big pockets and the big bucks behind it, we have basically what's in my bank account behind it, which is not not not very much these days, I can tell you. So yeah, we've rebuilt that kind of concept, but in a Indy style, you know, and that was kind of the intention when we went into this is I went, you know what the, this you get this question, you know, this film, the short film we shot. It's a 20 minute film, we shot it in in a week right now, I couldn't shoot 20 minutes of film in less than a month on the big budgets, you know, yeah, probably about a month, you know, just because there's it's an extra exponential process. The more crew you have, the more support crew you need, the longer it takes to do everything, right. So so in this one, I was shooting as quickly as I would would have shot on a short film or in film school, you know, we had great fun doing it. We worked we worked reasonable hours, you know, what, almost nine to five hours. We weren't working a lot of overtime and we got 20 minutes of footage done. A very, I think very good, good footage. You know, there's one sequence where we have cloned a guy, an actor, you know, 100 times he plays 100 versions of himself in the one scene, which which we shot in, you know, we shot shots or scene in three hours. You know, we did a similar scene like that in Gods of Egypt with a character and the scene. Set, one of the things that didn't even make it into the finished film, we were shooting for, you know, five days just on that one scene, you know, he's so that shows you how much faster you can work with this with this, this technology nology, you know, he could shoot one environment in the morning, have lunch, and go, Okay, now we're going to the mountain top and press a button on a computer, and suddenly you're in another location, you don't have to drive the unit across town, you know. So this is the way forward, this means that we can create, we can compete as an indie, as indie filmmakers, we can make films very high visual standard, compete with the big the big boys, you know. But do it you know, and do it at a at a budget, you know, and this all works in with, you know, streaming and all everything else to sort of like reclaim our, our industry, strip back, reclaim our, our craft our art back so that we can do it. You know, I've always been jealous for all my career of writers and painters and composers, yes, I can wake up one morning, go down to the piano in the alleged room and knock out a song, you know, right? Right, the next chapter of their book or whatever, and I'm like, why can't we as artists be like those guys? Well, because other people have to anoint us and give us the money to do it. Well, I think Heritage Foundation my studio is is a small cog in, in turning that around, you know, as the technology has been, you know, as what you're doing is all it's all part of the same puzzle. That, you know, the technology, for example, is allowing us to shoot films, again, we can if I want to make a film in the morning, I can make it it's not going to be a Marvel superhero movie, but it's going to be it's going to be you know, it's going to be a film it film, you know. So that, to me is the exciting world that we're in right now. And if we can, if we can break that one, that one extra little piece of the puzzle of how to get how to monetize this stuff, effectively, the content effectively get it out to the to the audience, then to me, it's a brave, that I that I certainly want to be a part of it's visual,

Alex Ferrari 1:22:18
Now. And you also have a YouTube channel called mystery clock cinema, which is so much fun. And I recommend everybody go into that channel. It only doesn't only have your short films, but it also has some master classes by you. I love that video, what the bad habits that film school taught me. Things like that. You know, you know a lot of directors of your statute, don't, don't give back don't want to help filmmakers don't learn that they don't want to but they just don't want they just don't know, you know, they don't do as much. And I'm so glad that someone with your experience in your artistic design and in your abilities are making an effort to give back to the filmmaking community. And I just love that you're doing that. How did the mystery clock cinema come about? And why did you start it?

Alex Proyas 1:23:08
Well, mystery clocks, my production company that sets my the some of the some of the time. And you know, I just I started looking at stuff on YouTube and going you know what I should I could do this stuff, you know, and it's it's great fun. I mean, there's also an there's a there's a diabolical agenda behind it, of course, which is I'm trying to, as you're doing in a much more successful way than I am doing in a much level, but I'm trying to realign things into that new world that I was told brave new world that I was talking about. And I feel like it's important for people to hear people like me who've come out of the old world, and now embracing this new way of doing stuff. I think that hopefully is an inspiring thing and being and hopefully they can realize a lot of new talent that is going to help build this new world you know, so I'm still doing it for my own selfish reasons really. But also I'm you know, I look i like i like I really enjoyed talking to people. I've done a lot of, you know, live I've masterclasses before, before we weren't allowed to congregate in groups this year, but up until that point, I was doing a lot of live ones and going to film school and teaching there. And I just really enjoy I love the energy that young filmmakers bring to this and often they end up teaching you more than you teach them you know they if only just to realize, reacquaint yourself with the the enthusiasm and the excitement, the energy that that filmmakers can can bring to this to this craft. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:24:43
I mean, I remember I remember my first day in film school, I still remember it to this day when they were touring around the studios and the back lot and stuff like that where I went. And I just remember that enthusiasm that I could just do anything and there was no bounds and that that's something that Obviously, the business starts to squash little by little. And it's about you trying to fight your way back out of that to be able to still hold on, hold on to that flame. But yeah, you know, now both you and I are covered in shrapnel from the years of being in the business, obviously, you're still pulling it out. Oh, no, you've got much, much more shrapnel than I do, sir. But, but inside you, the key is to hold on to that flame and to hold on to that love of what why you started this journey. This insane. Yeah, business if you you know, it's just an insanity. It's insanity. But, but I'm so glad that you you're doing that as well. And I'm gonna just ask a few questions, I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to get into the business today?

Alex Proyas 1:25:48
I think as I said before, do do your own thing, you know, in sticked. stick to that thing, you know, what you love, find those stories that you you know, those? What kind of movie do you want to tell and, and, and, and stay true to that, you know, and really try and focus on that and don't be sort of sidetracked into into other areas. I have this pet peeve about it about people who film at young filmmakers who try and do proof of concept type movies to get a gig with, you know, with a superhero franchise, you know, and I feel like, that's really limiting. There are some people that that's all they want to do, then good luck. Best of luck to them, but all you want to do, then maybe you're better off servicing your own original vision, and showing people what it what it is that you can that you can bring, to even to the event to get a franchise movie, you know, I think those producers will surely appreciate that much more than seeing, seeing someone cloning something that they do and doing it, you know, on a much lower budget and not doing it as well, you know, surely that would be a more, you know, so make sure you you put your resources into something you can do well, and pull off well, rather than something that's going to be half hard. Because if anything that's going to just show people that maybe you can't do something, you try to show them that you can do. But the most important thing is is is staying true to your own vision. You know, I feel like as a as a director, I mean, I you know, I think writer, writer, directors, great writer is a rare and and even though they may have one success, maybe they won't continue to have successes. So you don't always have to be a writer, as a filmmaker, you don't have to be an or a writer, director to be an otter filmmaker. But I think that I feel like, you know, to be an otter filmmaker, to be someone who has a vision, who has a style, who has something unique that they're trying to bring that that's what it means to me, you know, it doesn't mean that you try and do everyone's job on the set. Because there's particularly if you're if you're new, you need to listen to other people's opinion. You need to value other people's opinions, particularly if they're more experienced than you. But I think, try and find what it is that makes you new makes you fresh makes you original and unique. You know, and try and stick to that. While people are telling you that that sucks. You know,I think that's really important.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:32
And what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Alex Proyas 1:28:39
Ah, God life, I'm not going to go into that. Let's stick to the film stick to the film business. I think I touched upon it early on, which is storyboarding, which is he took me a long time to when I first started, I would do very elaborate storyboards, shot shot descriptions are actually, you know, drawings of every shot I wanted in a scene. And often I'd written a script as well. So I was very specific with where I wanted the actors to stand and what I went, What line I wanted them to turn around, on and on and all that sort of stuff. Because I thought that's what that's what being directed was, you know, sort of controlling the entire process. And, you know, I'd read a lot about the my heroes like Kubrick and a lot of its mythology too, because Kubrick is a far, far better director. Rector, then some of this mythology might allude to, which is, you know, he does 150 takes someone walking down and down a corridor or whatever, you know, if he does that he's doing it for a reason. which hasn't been properly explained. But, you know, and also Hitchcock, which you know, there's mythology about Hitchcock, which set which is another filmmaker that I that I really admired. Where he said once I've, you know, once I've storyboarded the movie written the script storyboarded the movie, the movie, He's done, then I just get the actors to do you know, the

Alex Ferrari 1:30:02
I don't even look through the camera. I don't even look at the camera.

Alex Proyas 1:30:05
Yeah, yeah. Which is just it's a again, it's a complete myth, right? So so so I but I listened to those myths it's and I thought that's what you did is every single nuance every detail so I'd say to the actor, okay now he already know we're ready to rehearse the scene and you stand here on this spot mark that I marked out which works on my 24 mil lens, and then you stand down there, and you tell him that you love him, you know, and they go, but but I am too, too far away to tell him that I love you seems really odd. And again, never mind just do it. It'll work out, it'll be fine. You know. So there I am completely throwing away what is instinctively something important for the actor for the character and overriding them with my authoritarian rule. Right. Which, and that's not what a what a director should do? Absolutely not, you know. So I took me a while to learn that you need to be flexible, particularly when you're doing scenes with actors and I just someone running down the street being chased by a dog or whatever, you need to give them the flexibility to create this the same for you. And it's at the end of the day. You You can't you might have a view about how you want to shoot it. But you've got to learn to let certain things go in the shoot in the heat of the moment. Right. And that's something that took me a long time to understand that kind of comes through experience.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:25
And last question, sir, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Alex Proyas 1:31:33
Well, 2001 still is it has been for since I've probably since I saw it, I don't know. But it because it is, as I say the the biggest, most famous experimental movie of all time. And the fact that it found an audience at that time is mind boggling to me that if I had any at any level of successor,

Alex Ferrari 1:31:55
there was no there was some. Yeah. And there was also some drug use involved with that. That's what actually made it

Alex Proyas 1:32:02
He probably hit the desired guys. Well, in that respect. Yes. I believe that only came in the second because they pulled the film. I think it's correct, because it was not doing well. And then they rereleased it again as the ultimate trip. Right? And that they did it in bed literally.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:19
And they figured it out. And they because I'm a Kubrick fanatic. So I've done so much research on Kubrick is after the fact, they started he seeing that the hippies were really loving it. And that's when they're like, wait, I'm here. Let's remarket this as a trip, and boom, it was a hit.

Alex Proyas 1:32:35
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, we found our audience Hallelujah, you know. So there's that. And then stalker is my other one that I've that I've passionately loved since I saw that film. And I saw that film actually in film school. tarkowski. stalker, because it showed me again, and similar to that one in many ways, but it's, it showed me how to tell a more linear story. And I do believe it is more it's more linear than 2001. But it told me to how to tell that story through told me how to tell that story through visual poetry, you know, which I think is what it is, you know, you know, and I mean, both of those songs, what I think is why they will remain my favorite films. And I like and you know, I like normal movies, too. So, you know, don't worry, I do like a good grounded, well told normal story. But But I love those movies because they do stuff. Stuff only movie, right? You can't possibly tell the you can't not not just tell the story, but you can't express the experience in any other medium other than in cinema. Right? Right with those two movies. And that's why I love them both so much. And I'm struggling as I speak to think of a third third one that compares but excuse me, I'll throw the exorcist in which is another eternal favorite of mine. Because it again he gave me an experience that no other film has ever been able to replicate such a unique experience. reasons I'm incredibly driven, powerful terrifying. story that with with incredible simplicity. I mean, that's the amazing thing about a film is it's honestly it's the simplest narrative and it's the simplest amount of elements you could possibly use in a movie right and so many people have tried to replicate again that movie over the years and and with various levels of success but that one really was a again like a game changer in movies. So they've been they've been many there have been many I could I could list.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:51
One movie, I get one movie that just comes to mind when I think of you I think he must like that and I please tell me if I'm wrong Blade Runner.

Alex Proyas 1:35:00
I love Blade Runner. Yeah. As a kid when I saw blade runner and it was, at the time, it was that I heard is the most beautiful film I've seen. You know, compromised, of course, because it was the board Harrison Ford voiceover at the beginning where you go, why does that guy sound so bored? You know, it's like, you see this amazing world and he just sounds like he's bored out of

Alex Ferrari 1:35:27
You know, and we're down here on this replicants and blah, blah. I remember I

Alex Proyas 1:35:36
That's obviously an alien. Both of those two movies were incredibly inspiring to me alien was another one, alien, maybe even more so than then Blade Runner for me, because the the chestburster at alien again, was one of those moments in cinema that will never be reproduced. The impact that that thing had, at the time was just he just, you know, the audience were just like, I remember that palpable experience of being in that in that it's in that screening, you know, sure. Stuff like that, you know, and, and studying and stuff that you can't, he can't, I don't think we'll ever read reproduce it. That's it. Like, it'd be like, seeing psycho, which is another favorite film of mine, when it first was released in the theaters, which I'm too old enough to have seen, but I cannot imagine because I remember seeing it on TV again, as a kid and going. Well Hang on a second. Second, I just killed the girl who was supposed to be the hero of the film. It's like, Who am I? Who am I following? I'm completely lost in this film. I can't imagine that the the impact that would have that bold narrative decision would have had in a theater on the first release, it would be mind boggling, you know? And so stuff like that. I just don't think i think a lot of filmmakers we were trying to we keep reaching for those moments. I mean, I reach for that moment at the end of dark city for that incredible, like mind blowing moment when you realize the entire story is not what you were thinking is some something actually different, you know? And, you know, I was riffing off. Actually another movie that I love is the original plan of the Apes where you know, Chuck Heston ends up on the beach and you see the Statue of Liberty and you go, which I think has gone beyond being a sort of a

Alex Ferrari 1:37:33
Cultural phenomenon.

Alex Proyas 1:37:34
Or when you know, when you give something away in a movie, what is it?

Alex Ferrari 1:37:38
Oh, it's Yeah, the reveal the secret? Yeah, like in the six that six sense or psycho or like Yeah, yeah, what? The ending you that twist ending the twist ending? spoiling.

Alex Proyas 1:37:49
It's a spoiler, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:37:50
I'm sorry. Sorry. Spoiler guys, all those movies, you haven't seen them stop listen to this podcast.

Alex Proyas 1:37:55
Pretty sure. I'm pretty sure everyone's aware of this. That's that particular spoiler, you know, maybe not as many people are aware of the spoiler that I could give away dark city. But, but yeah, that was, again, one of those moments where it's like, you know, wow, this is not another planet. This is actually our planet, you know, the future, stuff like that. And I just don't know that you can do that. I mean, six senses, probably one of the last of them that were people were talking about it and you know, it film it achieved some soul God, incredible thing, you know, but it's like, I don't know that. People you just can't. I mean, and you do it anymore.

Alex Ferrari 1:38:34
I mean, well, I mean, I remember like I met I can only imagine being in the theater to see Star Wars, like, or jaws.

Alex Proyas 1:38:41
Yeah. When I was I actually there's another one that I that I, I look, I'm a big fan of the original trilogy, and I find it hard to wax lyrical about Star Wars on level just because I think it's, well, I won't say I don't like saying negative things about things. Now. I will I just think it's a bit of a disaster these days. But um, but yeah, I was there. I was in the original screening of the first Star Wars. I think I was, there must have been a me is 1414 in your mind must have been blown. Your mind must have been blown. He was you know, but look, the thing is, for me, at the time, I was big into science fiction already because as we've said, 2001 and I was looking at you know, I would there were certain magazines like this is amazing, called starlog time. Yeah, of course, I'm and a bunch of other magazines, that I would collect voraciously. And I would seek out any information on films like Star Wars that were coming that were coming up, you know, in those days apart from a trailer, it was really hard to find any detail. Films. You know, it wasn't the internet world that we now live in. So I was four, I was tracking that film diligently up until the moment it came out. So it was already a really exciting And also movies came out. They came out in the states first. So we already knew that it was a it was a cultural phenomenon already had been out a few weeks and people were lining up to see it. And so there were high expectations when me and a bunch of other kids. We we call wagging. We got out of school, we pretended we were sick. And we all went down to the Star Wars flu movie. Yeah, the Star Wars flu. Yeah, it was they they didn't do like midnight screening in seven days, as it was, we were there for the first post for morning or something like that. first session Friday, 1111 o'clock Friday morning. And we went down, we saw the movie, we went straight back in on the next the next session and saw it again, you know, of course, because it was just such a such an experience. You know, the last the last time I saw people

Alex Ferrari 1:40:51
Like the the last movie that I remember that happening to was probably Pulp Fiction. Like when I saw Pulp Fiction rock in the theater, I remember literally falling out of my chair with some of the dialogue. It was just like one of those events just like holy because there was nothing like Pulp Fiction before Pulp Fiction, like there was, it was it was one of those groundbreaking film, it was a week of keep geeking out about film for at least another four hours. But I will respect your time. Thank you, Alex. so so much for being on the show. It's been an honor talking to you and and thank you for sharing your knowledge and with the tribe. And I truly, truly appreciate everything you do. And I'm gonna do my darndest to get you the 100 and 50 million my friend.

Alex Proyas 1:41:36
Thank you very much Alex, much appreciated and lovely talking to you as well. It's been it's been great fun. So keep up the good work.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:44
Thank you, my friend.

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Billy Wilder Scripts Collection: Screenplay Downloads

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Originally planning to become a lawyer, Billy Wilder abandoned that career in favor of working as a reporter for a Viennese newspaper, using this experience to move to Berlin, where he worked for the city’s largest tabloid. He broke into films as a screenwriter in 1929 and wrote scripts for many German films until Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933.

Wilder immediately realized his Jewish ancestry would cause problems, so he emigrated to Paris, then the US. Although he spoke no English when he arrived in Hollywood, Wilder was a fast learner and thanks to contacts such as Peter Lorre (with whom he shared an apartment), he was able to break into American films. His partnership with Charles Brackett started in 1938 and the team was responsible for writing some of Hollywood’s classic comedies, including Ninotchka (1939) and Ball of Fire (1941). The partnership expanded into a producer-director one in 1942, with Brackett producing and the two turned out such classics as Five Graves to Cairo (1943), The Lost Weekend (1945) (Oscars for Best Picture, Director and Screenplay) and Sunset Blvd. (1950) (Oscars for Best Screenplay), after which the partnership dissolved. (Wilder had already made one film, Double Indemnity (1944) without Brackett, as the latter had refused to work on a film he felt dealt with such disreputable characters.)

Wilder’s subsequent self-produced films would become more caustic and cynical, notably Ace in the Hole (1951), though he also produced such sublime comedies as Some Like It Hot (1959) and The Apartment (1960) (which won him Best Picture and Director Oscars). He retired in 1981.

Below are all the screenplays available online. If you find any of his missing screenplays please leave the link in the comment section.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple and Spotify’s #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar® Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

(NOTE: For educational and research purposes only).

DOUBLE IDEMNITY (1944)

Directed and Screenplay by Billy Wilder – Read the screenplay!

THE LOST WEEKEND (1945)

Directed and Screenplay by Billy Wilder – Read the screenplay!

SUNSET BOULEVARD (1950)

Directed and Screenplay by Billy Wilder – Read the screenplay!

THE APARTMENT (1960)

Directed and Screenplay by Billy Wilder – Read the screenplay!

THE PRIVATE LIFE OF SHERLOCK HOLMES (1970)

Directed and Screenplay by Billy Wilder – Read the screenplay!

 

 

BPS 256: The High And Lows Of Working In Hollywood With Kevin Reynolds

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Imagine you are in a film school and you make a student film. Then that student film get’s seen by Steven Spielberg and he calls you into his office to offer you a deal to direct a feature film version of that short. Well, that is exactly how today’s guests go his start.

On the show, we have the legendary writer/director Kevin Reynolds. Kevin directed the worldwide blockbuster Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, the epic Rapa Nui, and the infamous and misunderstood Waterworld.

Kevin Reynolds made his big career leap from election lawyer and political speechwriter to pursue his childhood passion for writing – enrolling into film school at the University of Southern California.

In 1980, Reynolds’s debut film Proof landed him a shot right out of USC to work with Steven Spielberg. The film was later produced as Fandango in 1985, written and directed by Reynolds.

Five college buddies from the University of Texas circa 1971 embark on a final road trip odyssey across the Mexican border before facing up to uncertain futures in Vietnam and otherwise.

In 1991, Reynolds directed the $48 million action-adventure film of the time, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, that grossed $390 million worldwide. This action-filled fan favorite follows Robin and his Moorish companion’s adventure to England and his fight back against the Sheriff of Nottingham’s tyranny.

He followed up Robin Hood with the epic Rapa Nui. The film the love between the representatives of two warring tribes changes the balance of power on the whole of the famous Easter Island. The film failed to find an audience in its initial release but has since become a cult favorite.

His next directorial outing is the legendary Waterworld starring Kevin Costner. Waterworld was labeled the most expensive movie ever made ($175 million) until Titanic dethroned it a few years later. The press said it was the biggest flop of all time as well but nothing could be farther from the truth.

When the film was finally released it made $264 million worldwide. The film went on to become one of the most valuable IPs in the Universal Studios library. The company created a theme park out of the film that has last over 25 years in multiple parks around the world and has generated hundreds of millions of dollars for Universal.

In a future where the polar ice-caps have melted and Earth is almost entirely submerged, a mutated mariner fights starvation and outlaw “smokers,” and reluctantly helps a woman and a young girl try to find dry land.

Reynolds’s critically acclaimed historical adventure film adaptation of The Count of Monte Cristo novel in 2002, which starred versatile actor James Caviezel, was a remarkable comeback project after a five-year hiatus. The film is about revenge after a man, falsely accused by three jealous friends, sought to avenge his wasted years of somewhat imprisonment serving a wealthy Italian cleric.

Kevin and I discuss the highs and lows of directing in Hollywood, working with Steve Spielberg, his ever-changing relationship with friend Kevin Coster, how he dealt with directing Waterworld and so much more.

Enjoy my conversation with Kevin Reynolds.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:37
I like to welcome the show, Kevin Reynolds. Kevin, thank you so much for being on the show.

Kevin Reynolds 3:57
My pleasure.

Alex Ferrari 3:59
I am a big fan of your work for many, many years. Some of your films that specifically in the late 80s and early 90s had very big impact on my life. Because I was I was working at a video store back then. I remember putting together this standee for Robin Hood.

Kevin Reynolds 4:18
Why are you dating yourself, Alex?

Alex Ferrari 4:20
I am I am I will the gray hairs date me more and more every time.

Kevin Reynolds 4:25
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
So before we get started, how did you get into the business?

Kevin Reynolds 4:32
Ah, well, that's a bit of a long story. But I you know, originally I was a lawyer. I always loved film I what I really liked was to write I wrote since I was like a kid.

But you know, a career in the film business just seemed too far fetched. So, I followed a responsible career path and went to law school, even though I didn't like it and I practiced for a couple of years. I was in Austin, University of Texas, which had a fabulous facility and the nice thing about being a lawyer was I had some money. So I could, I could go in, they had a great facility, I could pay for film, I could do stuff I could I could pay to do movies. So that's really where I kind of educated myself. Initially, it was at University of Texas. And while I was there, one of the visiting professors was a, an old Hollywood character named Edward Demetrik. He was one of the Hollywood 10 and talked to him and said, look, I think this is really what I want to pursue, because I was practicing the daytime, I was staying up till two o'clock at night at UT, working on movies, and after about a year that I said, I gotta make a decision here. So I talked to him. And I said, I want to I want to go to film school at USC. And he said, Why? And I said, Well, I want to be a director. And he said, it's the toughest job in the world. And I said, No, no, no, I said, I really want to do this. You know, I've been practicing. I really wanted this. He said, You don't understand. It's the toughest job in the world. He said, You got a good career here being a lawyer. He said, don't do it. And, you know, I said, No, I want to. So anyway, he gave me a letter introduction. I flattened it, mort zarkov, who's the chairman. And I applied, and I got accepted. And the next day, I quit my job.

Yeah. Like a month later, I packed everything up in a car and moved to LA, and started film school. I had like $3,000 to my name. And it was, you know, taking a big chance. And I was there for two years, I loved every minute of it. I realized this is really what I'm meant to do. It was 24/7 for two years.

Alex Ferrari 6:41
Was it? What did your parents say? I don't mean to interrupt people. What did your parents or five.

Kevin Reynolds 6:47
I'll never forget the look on their faces. I got my car to drive away to LA. You know, but they didn't say no, you can't do this. They were just deeply concerned as well. They should be now as I would have been, you know, with my kid. Anyway, so I get there. Like I said, for two years. It was great worked on movies. My goal was to leave USC and have a screenplay I could sell and a movie I could show people. So at the end of the two years, I was very fortunate, I get to do what's called a 580, which was the highest level of film at USC. It was this little movie called proof. And at the same time, I was writing my thesis screenplay with something called 10 soldiers, which ultimately became the movie Red Dawn. And I finished the film. And I the next week, I got really lucky I met this guy who had known at UT he was working as an agent at William Morris on somebody's desk. And he just been promoted agent. So he read my script and said, Sure, I'll represent you. And I was his first client. name's Mike Simpson. We're like, best friends. Anyway. So I said, Hey, would you send us movie saving since Steven Spielberg says, okay, so like two weeks later, I'm still at USC. And I'm out in the courtyard one day and Mort Zarkov comes out in the courtyard. He goes, can you come here and and walk in zombies puts his arm around you guys, Steven Spielberg's offices on the phone, they want to talk to you. Right. Okay. So it was Kathy Kennedy, and she was even watched your movie and he really liked it. He'd like you to come in and talk to him. I think I can find time for that. So I, I went in the next day, and met with Stephen, he couldn't have been nicer. He was in the mess he was shooting at at the time.

And we talked for a long time, and I went back to my crappy little apartment Studio City. And the next day, I get this phone call from Kathy Kennedy. And she goes, hi, Stevens making arrangements for you to expand your student film into a feature.

Alex Ferrari 9:02
Oh my god. Okay.

Kevin Reynolds 9:05
Literally, I just sat in the chair for like a half an hour and I picked it up and I called her back and I said, could you say that again? I did not bling and she just laughed. And he did. He did he, when he you know, he went to Warner's and got him to make what became Fandango. And it was the expanded version of that short film at USC proof and that plus selling my script that became Red Dawn, that's how I got started. It was a you know if it was a things like that don't really happen.

Alex Ferrari 9:44
No, you are that is a man that is that is a lottery ticket. That is a lottery ticket times two. Because you you sold your first script out of film school and a short film you made Got the eye of Steven Spielberg? arguably the biggest at that time, easily the biggest director in the world, now one of the most legendary directors in the world. And he calls, he calls you out of film school. Hey, can you come in? I mean, it's an insane story. I mean, I'd heard this story a little bit, because I, I love hearing these kind of origin stories of, you know, accomplished directors. But this is, you know, this is I think what people hold on to so much sometimes film directors hope for this and it doesn't happen

Kevin Reynolds 10:28
I said to myself, I just, I couldn't believe it. It's like, How could this happen? I never expected to be that fortunate. And, you know, my whole philosophy about success in the film business, I guess, in any business is it's it's about a third talent. And it's about a third hard work. It's about luck. And not necessarily in that order.

Alex Ferrari 10:52
Yes,

Kevin Reynolds 10:53
I was extremely lucky. Now, I'm going back to your short film proof, which I saw, by the way, and it was fantastic. I found I found it on YouTube. I found it on YouTube. And I'll put links I'll put links to it in the show notes so people can see it. It was I could there was like this one shot that I was like, how did you get the camera in the cockpit? to look up at the at the pilot? Like because the cameras were not that small back? So it must have been interesting how to how you did that?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. But I mean, we were shooting 16 millimeter.

Alex Ferrari 11:26
And so you might have that little like a little ball left or something like that.

Kevin Reynolds 11:30
Small. It's a smaller camera. But I mean, if it was on on Truman, pilot, it was probably, you know, it was not. It was a saint camera. So it was a little bit bigger. But I mean, we we broke all the rules.

There were several times when, you know, we were lucky, nobody died. It was one of those kind of deals. I mean, the guy who was in my production manager who, you know, I was very close to at the time, he was a pilot, you know, he was 21 years old, and he was a pilot. So we would go out in the desert, outside of Lancaster, California, in this old airfield. And we didn't, we would go and rent a plane. Each weekend, we drive up there, we stayed in a Winnebago. And he would go over and rent a plane not telling them what we were doing with it. And we would fly and he would have landed on this dirt strip. And we would paint the plane. You know, we would spend half a day painting this plane, taking the seats and stuff out so that it looks like Truman's plane, and then we'd shoot all weekend. And then like on Sunday night, we'd have to put all the stuff back in a plane wash it, and then he'd have to fly it back to this place and turn it in. And we'd never tell him what we were doing with it. And he was doing stuff like diving down on the thoughts and stuff and all illegal. And we're very lucky.

Alex Ferrari 13:19
It's the insanity of youth, isn't it? It really is. It's the it's it cuz I did dumbest things when I was, you know, teenager in my early 20s things that you just like, what, I didn't do that. But I didn't say insane. But let's just let's just you know, call a spade a spade, you quit your law practice to go to be a film director. So you're not altogether there at that age. Is that a fair? Is that a fair statement?

Kevin Reynolds 13:47
That's a fair statement. And and I think one of the problems especially when you're younger, you know, think you're immortal. In a movie, you think nothing bad can happen because this is make believe. And because we're doing make believe, you know, all the Jeopardy is make believe too, but it's not. And you forget that. So again, we were very we were very lucky.

Alex Ferrari 14:13
Now what was you know, I was like asking this question, what was the biggest lesson you learned from that first short film because that was the first time you directed really right.

Kevin Reynolds 14:23
I had done smaller films at USC. But that was the first big one. They have to stab two levels gone. I don't know what they do now. But it was called for 80s in 580s. Before he did a 580 You were supposed to have directed a 580. And to do a 480. We're supposed to have worked in a crew position on the short film as either an editor or production manager or something cameraman and they gave me a waiver. They gave me a waiver and let me go ahead and direct a 580 having only edited a 480 again, you know I was I was very lucky but they like the script for USC, and I mean, that was such an amazing place to go to school. Again, I don't know what it's like now, but it was just, I learned so much there. I still remember when I, when I first went to see more markup, and I'm sitting there in his office, and he's telling me, you know, all the classes you have to take, and you were supposed to start at shooting these non sync little movies.

And I was at trying to get him to wave me. And let me just skip those and go on to the next level of film and stuff. And I'm talking to him, and he just stops me. And he goes, look, he says, we'll teach you how to make movies here. He said, We want people that have something to say. And that's always stuck with me then.

And I realized, finally, the strange collection of personalities that were going to school there, they were all from all different walks of life, I was an attorney, there were people that had been doctors, and stuff. And for whatever reason, they just looked at their resumes and said, this person might have something to say. And they're they're all attitude is will teach you the technical side, which they did. But then once you got there, you had to figure out how to how to have the wherewithal to say it. In other words, you had to be able to work the system to make your movie. And it was so frustrating at the time, because you're competing with all these other people with limited resources and limited slots for the movies that were allowed and stuff. And when you get out, you finally realize it's the studio system. What they're teaching you is the studio system that you have to fight other people, and you have to battle other potential filmmakers, for those slots. And you learn all the tricks, you know, like, every weekend, when you're making a student film, you had to sign up for equipment out of the out of the equipment room. And it was always limited. You know, you could always get the cameras you wanted or the grip gear and stuff like that. So I figured, okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do for my Chairman, I hired the guy that ran the equipment room

Alex Ferrari 17:11
Smart.

Kevin Reynolds 17:13
So we got whatever we wanted. And it's just stuff like that, that you learn, okay, this is how you have to work the system to get what you want. And it goes beyond film school, it goes on to professionally too. And to me that was that was, you know, the most important thing I think I learned at USC was how to game the system.

Alex Ferrari 17:37
A very useful skill in Hollywood to say the least.

Kevin Reynolds 17:40
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 17:43
Now, how did you come up with the idea for Red Dawn, because that was a pretty awesome idea. Just a concept was very, it's very cool. Yeah, the original, it was titled 10, soldiers, TN. And, you know, I did it for the no, in fact, there were 10 people involved, but I also liked the idea can tie in, so. But I don't know, I don't really know where it came from. I think at the time what it was, was in the early 80s, we were, you know, there was a there was a lot of drum beating against the Russians and stuff. And B, we're gonna let's go to war with Russkies. And I thought how stupid and people didn't understand why the Europeans weren't behind us and stuff. And I was like, Well, the reason is because they just had a horrible war about 40 years ago, and they know what it's like. And, you know, had been over 100 years since we'd, Americans had had a war in our own backyards. And so we were sort of removed from that experience. And I thought, Okay, what would it be like if we actually had to fight a war on our own turf? What would it be like for people to really have to go through that to fight a guerrilla war like they did in World War Two in Europe. And that was really the genesis for the for the screenplay, where the idea came from. And so I sort of incorporated that into what was going on at the time with the with the Russians, and all in it came out the way it did.

Kevin Reynolds 19:10
You know, John melius took it and

Alex Ferrari 19:12
Yeah

Kevin Reynolds 19:13
I think he made it a little more jingoist at I don't think he did he did he made it more jingoistic than what I intended it to be what what I wrote was more like Lord of the Flies and john was trying to make more of a political statement. And I just wanted to show this is what war does to people. This is what it would do to you if it happened here. Anyway.

Alex Ferrari 19:35
Yes, john. John has that does? Does that to say the least? God bless him, man. God bless him. Now when you when you were doing your first feature, Fandango, you hired a little unknown actor at that time. I think Kevin something or other I don't even know if he's doing anything anymore. Mr. Koster, Kevin Costner, you hired him and he did he actually is become, in your career? a collaborator for a lot of a lot of big films that you worked on? How What? How was it working with, like putting Fandango together? And because I remember watching Fandango, there's such a youthful energy. It's created by young filmmakers acted by young filmmakers. And you can sense that energy there. How was it like putting that whole thing together? And also having big daddy Spielberg? Like, in the shadows, must have been terrifying?

Kevin Reynolds 20:33
No, it was an interesting experience. I mean, it was just kind of handed to me, okay, go make this movie. And, but I knew it had to be an expanded version of proof. So I had to write a movie backwards, you know, I had to write, how do I take this one sequence and make an entire feature around it.

And, I mean, unfortunately, I think Stephen expected it to be more like Animal House, which is sort of the quality, a little bit of proof. But I guess at the time, I wanted to do something a little more soulful. And like so many filmmakers, you know, it was that sort of my first film was a sort of quintessential coming of age story that everybody has to get out of their system before they can move on to something else. And that's sort of where I found myself as I sat down to write it. And I think it was more soulful, which I don't think was a bad thing. But I think it was not necessarily what some people expected it to be.

And as for Costner, I actually met him when I was in film school, because when I was making proof, he came in and read for the part in the student film, he was. He was the stage manager at Raleigh studios. In Hollywood. He was in floors, trying to get gigs as an actor. And he came in and read for the part, and I really liked him. But I guess somebody else, as you can see, improved, but I called him and I said, Look, man, I'm sorry, I thought you were great. I really liked you. But I don't know why. You know, I've cast this other guy. Then he was, you know, very gracious and thanked me and all. And then, like, a couple years later, when we were actually making Fandango, casting it, he came in again to read for it. And we remembered each other and we talked and, you know, I remember him very well. And he sat down to read for the party gardener Barnes and literally within the first two lines out of his mouth, I know he was the guy. And

Alex Ferrari 22:32
Did he switch? Did he switch something from two years earlier? How, what is what what made no difference was

Kevin Reynolds 22:37
I don't know what it was, it was just I don't know, if the in those couple of years, you know, he'd he'd done a couple of smaller parts. He was, you know, cut in the Big Chill and stuff. But he was in that if

Alex Ferrari 22:47
I remember correctly, he was a dancing extra and night shift. Ron Howard's night shift

Kevin Reynolds 22:52
He was he was he was, but there was just, you know, he had he had the quality of the character. And I think it was more we had the quality of the character in the expanded version, because Gardner Barnes and Fandango is a much more complete character with a much deeper arc than the character in the short. And maybe that's what it was, was that the character himself had changed a lot in those two years, then he just, he just fit him. That's why I asked him.

Alex Ferrari 23:22
Now, when you're going into a film, what is your pre production process? I mean, do you do you rehearse with actors? Because I know some directors love long rehearsals, other directors wanted on the day, how do you how do you prepare? What's your pre production process?

Kevin Reynolds 23:37
You know, it's evolved over the years. And for me, personally, I, when I started out, I would have rehearsals and stuff. And a lot of times, it's awkward, because people show up, they don't know each other, and I and ultimately, I, I've come to realize it for me, the most valuable thing about rehearsal is not so much learning the lines and stuff, it's really getting to know the other people. It's, it's creating a rapport, and a bit of a shorthand before you show up on the set. So you're just not like showing up with strangers. It's really getting to know each other. You know, yeah, you'll sit there and you talk about the characters and you explore them, and you'll do scenes and stuff. But I think it's ludicrous to expect that whatever, whatever performance level you achieved in rehearsal is going to be the same thing you get two months later when you're actually doing it on the floor, because things evolve. And that to me is the greatest benefit of rehearsal is simply getting to know the actors and letting them get to know you.

You know, so that your there's a familiarity before you start to do it. It's easier to talk to each other. And that that's what I like about now. There are some actors that that really liked to rehearse to a tee. I respect that, you know, that's what they need. every actor needs something different and others hate rehearsal. They don't want to do it, they just want to show up on the day. And I get that too. And I think personally, that's kind of where I am, I prefer to just discuss the characters, maybe try some things. But don't say, Okay, that's it, that tape right there the way you played it. That's it. That's how we're going to do three months from now. That's BS.

And I've also learned and performance wise, on the set, when you're doing a scene, I don't like to rehearse too much before you shoot. I like to block it. So everybody kind of knows where you're supposed to go. And you kind of get a loose rhythm. And I encourage people, when you're rehearsing on the day of the shoot, to not get up to performance level, I just say, let's just loosely block this and figure out where you're going to be. Because invariably, what I find is you burn out. And you can spend a couple hours rehearsing something and they'll give you their good stuff, and then it comes time to shoot, and they've already given it to you. So I like to hold it back as much as possible until you actually roll cameras, I prefer to rehearse on camera, because you never know. You know, again, every actor is different. Some actors show up and they're just exploding, you know, they've been thinking about it all night, they're ready to go. And within the first three or four take, they've given you the best stuff. So if you rehearse, you know, six, eight times, you've lost it. There are other actors that show up, and they need a lot of coffee, because they're not even remotely there. And it may take them, the better part of the day to get up to a full performance level, they need to do it a lot. And so as a director, you got to recognize these differences in them. And so the guy that's right there from the get go, that's what you want to cover first, you know, and the guy is gonna build into it, you want him off camera for half the day until you turn around, start to shoot him. It's just, you know, it just comes from experience. It's just you learn these things about working with people, and you have to respect everybody's got their own way. And so you're trying to make all those different ways jive for what you're trying to do.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
It's kind of like what the what that the director told you in film school, this is the most difficult job in the world. He was right.

Kevin Reynolds 27:21
He was that, you know, and it's like, another thing I tell people, I think 50% of directing is just having the willingness to subject yourself to the process. Because it's not everybody can do it. And and to get through it, you have to want to do it. You really have to want to go through that process. I mean, you know, like, it's not like combat or anything like that something horrible. But it's strenuous. It's very strenuous. And you kind of have to put yourself in that place and be willing to run the gauntlet, you know, to get there because it is if you do it right, I think there's some people that just sit back and just let it happen and don't put themselves into it too much. But I don't I don't think I think the product is affected by that.

Alex Ferrari 28:11
It's not It's not for the weak hearted, you know, or weak willed to say the least. There's so many directors I've known over the years that I've got my start in post production. So I had directors sitting on my couch while I edited and color graded and did all this stuff. And you see it you see the personalities you see like this guy and going to make it this was the and I've had many directors who got that one shot. They got their Fandango, they got their Fandango, and then they're like, you know what, I'm gonna go back to being a lawyer. This is not for me. And then there's other ones that like, are just just in the mud, and you're like, he's gonna make it or she's gonna she's gonna keep going.

Kevin Reynolds 28:50
It's Yeah, it's crazy. It's you have to be a little crazy. You really do I don't know why this story. I can digress from Oh

Alex Ferrari 28:59
Sure, sure.

Kevin Reynolds 29:00
All right. The guy who was my producer of Fandango, Tim Zimmerman, great guy, and Tim had been an ad for a long time. He worked on a lot of shows. And I won't say which show but he worked on this one in the South Pacific. That was just a disaster. You know, delaurentis thing. And, you know, the chaos was crazy. And he had actors that we show up in Dino's office and rip your clothes off and scream at him and stuff. And anyway, the director was just losing it. And and he said one day, you know, the call was like seven or something. Everybody shows up, they can't find the director. They're on an island. They're on an island. And they wait and they wait and wait, can't find him. And Tim finally just starts walking around the island. It's not that big. He's looking for the guy. He's not in his quarters or whatever. Finally, he walks around the island like half an hour and on the far side of the island, he finally finds this guy sitting in the sand. Looking through binoculars, it crashed.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
He lost it. He lost that just quickly

Kevin Reynolds 29:59
He lost it. Gone.

Alex Ferrari 30:01
Wow, that's like a Terry Gilliam film. Like, that's something I would see.

Kevin Reynolds 30:08
You just yeah, you know, you don't want to get to that place, you have to be stupid enough to think you're right. And stupid enough to think I'm gonna power through this, I can do this, you know? And that, you know if other people can do it, I can do it. Because if you start to doubt yourself, you're dead. You wrong. But if you doubt yourself, you're dead.

Alex Ferrari 30:32
Absolutely, I couldn't have said it better myself. So as as you're going through your career. Your next film, I think, was the beast, if I remember correctly, which I remember recommending heavily at my video store, because it no one had heard of it. And I don't think Jason Patric was a very big star at that point. He might have just been starting out. But I was like, wow, this is really great. And I got a lot of good, good, good comment cards. For my recommendation of the beast, I remember. And as this is going on, Kevin, the other Kevin Kevin Costner, he's he's kind of growing as a star, fairly high, to the point where it comes to Dances with Wolves, which cements him as probably one of the biggest movie stars at the time. You also did a little part in Dances with Wolves. Can you tell me what you did? Or what you helped with? I mean, from what I from my understand.

Kevin Reynolds 31:34
Yeah, I went out there to the Dakotas for a few weeks and did some second

Alex Ferrari 31:41
Best second unit director, I'm gonna say

Kevin Reynolds 31:46
We knew each other and, and we talk a lot. You know, Kevin, and I spend a lot of time together. And so he asked me to come out, and I did it and tried to help him out. And there were rumors. You know, at the time that I was directing the

Alex Ferrari 32:02
Of course, there's always stuff. No,

Kevin Reynolds 32:04
That wasn't just wasn't true. But yeah, I worked on the buffalo hunt some other stuff.

Alex Ferrari 32:09
That's Yeah, that was awesome. And so that that kind of cemented him is a very big movie star. And then right afterwards, I think it was the next year or so. Were you guys already working on Robin Hood? During dances after dances? That's when Robin Hood showed up?

Kevin Reynolds 32:22
Yeah. I was a This was after the beast. And I'd been on and off a couple of different things that, you know, didn't happen. And I was actually on another picture at Universal, we were in prep. And they they'd asked me to come, they'd asked me to leave another project, come do that. And I was reluctant, because they said, Look, this is a $40 million picture, which at the time was a lot of money. Huge. They went up now it's not 40 man. I said, Look, it's a $40 million movie. And they said, Look, don't worry about we're making this movie. Come do it anyway. So I did a bale and I started doing prep. On the other show. We said production option, everything. And after about two months, finally the budget came in $39 million. And they go we're not doing that. And I'm like, I told you it was gonna be $40 million. Yeah, well, you got to bring it down to 30. Because we're not doing I was furious, because I've wasted all this time. Literally the next day I get this phone call. They said hey, you want to do Robin Hood? Little did I know. There was a there were a couple of competing projects.

Alex Ferrari 33:27
Yes.

Kevin Reynolds 33:28
John McTiernan. So I said, Sure. If you're making it, yes. Because I was, I was so angry. So I did I, I bail. And the next thing is that I'm out of here. And so I went on to this other route. And the next day after I got onto that, I get this call from Kevin and and he goes, can I talk to you? And I said, Sure. Just come on over. So he comes over to my new office and he walks in he goes, did you know I was on this other Robin Hood with McTiernan? No. He said, Are you serious? He goes, yeah. He said, You know, I was, we were talking about doing this other thing. And I said, I have no idea. And he was like, Oh, God, okay. Well, whatever. Long story short, the producer who was very widely realized costume was doing this. So he asked me to do the Robin Hood. And so Kevin bale on the other one came on to that Robin Hood. That's how it came to be.

Alex Ferrari 34:24
Yeah, there was a cup. I remember. It's it always happens. Like there's the asteroid movies where there's competing asteroid movies, Robin Hood's in the volcano.

Kevin Reynolds 34:32
Yeah, it's crazy. And you know, it's happened a couple of times to me. And in fact, just recently, I don't know why I had this idea. God, you know, an interesting subject for a film would be Edddie Murphy. And so I read a couple of books on him and stuff. I was like, this would be an interesting story. Literally. The next day I read this thing and in the trays somebody was doing an Eddie Murphy series based on my

Alex Ferrari 34:58
So I had been decimated. On on the show as well, who's the writer of, of Robin Hood for everybody in the audience. And Penn is just one of the sweetest human beings I've ever met. I absolutely adore Penn. And, and I told him the same story I'm going to tell you, I was working on the weekends and movie theater, I was working weekdays at a video store, working weekends, movie theater. I was definitely a glutton for punishment. And that year 91 comes out Robin Hood, me and my friend went to go see it sat in the front row, because it was packed, he couldn't get anything else, looking up at it, got out, walked right back and watched it again. It was it was such we were so enthralled with that movie, and it was so much fun. And it was it was just like such a fun movie. And I have to ask you, like you're taking on a character like Robin Hood, which is a beloved character, you know, obviously, the Errol Flynn thing from years ago. And he's just such a well known character. And I know from what I understood it, I've done research on that movie years ago, Kevin did not want to wear tights. He's like, I'm not wearing tights in this movie. So you can forget that. How do you approach a character such an iconic character? And did you feel any just pressure by tackling that kind of character?

Kevin Reynolds 36:19
Yeah. Yes. You know, I just plunged into that, because I wanted to make a picture, like I said, had been on and off. So a couple things. And finally, I was just like, okay, is this going Is this for real? Um, I'm in. And, you know, I read the script. And I liked the idea of it. I wanted to do some things with it. And the one of the problems was, how do we make this not, you know, look ridiculous, like,

Alex Ferrari 36:44
Right.

Kevin Reynolds 36:48
And I'll tell you a couple other things. But first off, when we were two weeks from shooting, and the wardrobe guy, you know, is working on it, and he wouldn't show me anything. I'm like, see, I gotta see what you're thinking about. And so he's Okay, come tomorrow afternoon, I'll have it laid out. So I go into the warehouse, where he's working. And he lays all this stuff on the table. And it's literally like, you know, green tights and the little scalp thing like, little green half with no

Alex Ferrari 37:19
Oh my god. So is there a flood? Is there a flood?

Kevin Reynolds 37:21
Yeah. And I'm like, this is a joke, right? Where's the real stuff? And I could tell from the look on his face. No, this was it. This was the wardrobe. \

Alex Ferrari 37:31
Oh, my God.

Kevin Reynolds 37:32
I was horrified. So I fired him.

Alex Ferrari 37:37
I as you should, sir.

Kevin Reynolds 37:40
And I hired John Bloomfield. And John literal, he came in with less than two weeks, and created an amazing wardrobe. John was a genius. And he saved, you know, he came in, he did something that was classy. You know, that really worked. And I mean, hats off to john, because we were in dire straits. You know, he did that. On the movie itself. And I don't know what it was about it. But you know, as I as I was reading it, something didn't quite, it wasn't enough. And as I started to explore the characters, and I was trying to find something that would get me excited. I realized I didn't want to take things too seriously, in places, and consequently, the sheriff evolved the way that he did.

And it was great, because when I met when I met Alan Rickman, we were both on the same page, that he you know, he didn't want to play him as some mustache twirling villain. He wanted to do something different to and we just completely clicked in that regard. And I think that, you know, that was a lot of what made the picture work was was Alan, you know, and that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun.

Alex Ferrari 39:07
Yeah, he he was fresh off of that other independent film called Die Hard. He played another amazing villain. So he started that, you know, you went right from I don't know if he did anything in between, but then Diehard and then Sheriff for Nottingham, it's just like, me, he steals, I don't say steals every scene, but he just eats up. Every scene he's in.

Kevin Reynolds 39:32
It was fun. It was fun. Because I you know, I'd say what if you do this and you go, okay, but then what if I do this, you know, and it just kept building on itself. And it was just, it was it was fortuitous.

Alex Ferrari 39:46
Without question. And then you have Morgan Freeman who's not a slouch. It was it was it was it was a good it was a good time. It was good times. Now that film claims comes out and explodes. I mean, it was a shame huge huge hit that summer, if I remember correctly, was miss a massive, massive hit. And and really, you know Kevin is on us, you know, Dances with Wolves, Robin Hood. And then and then I think the next picture with your next picture Waterworld right after that.

Kevin Reynolds 40:19
No, Rapa Nui

Alex Ferrari 40:21
That's what I'm sorry. I thought that was after. Yes, so rep rapid Nui. So yeah, after the success of Robin Hood, you went, What attracted you to that story? Because that's such an It was so beautiful. It's such a, I've never even heard of that story. It was such a

Kevin Reynolds 40:34
Nobody, nobody had and that that was what attracted me to it was just I'd done some reading about Easter Island. And you know what happened there so long ago. And from what they understand, you know, they think that Polynesians landed there about fifth century AD, and they think there were probably four cases they were fleeing political strife. There, they came, probably a couple dozen people landed there. They were led by a guy named hotu Matilda. And over the centuries, they populated the island. And it's the most isolated island and on the face of the earth, populated Island.

It's 2300 miles west of Chile, 1500 miles east of Pitcairn Island. And they live there, you know, for centuries without any contact that we know of from anywhere else. So I was fascinated by the fact that what they know is that it wasn't even discovered again until 1722 by Dutch navigator on Easter Sunday, and that's where the name came from Easter Island. But what they found at the time, was this just barren place, no trees, and all these toppled statues, and these people living in caves in the ground, just almost like animals.

And I'm like, how did that happen? You know, nobody could understand. But what they what they came to realize historically from the oral history was these descendants of Houma to populate the island they divided ultimately into two different clans, the long ears are kind of nobility in the short ears who were the commoners. And they basically degraded the island, environmental and they cut all the trees down. They overfished it.

Unknown Speaker 42:18
They overpopulated it, they think at one time, there were 20,000 people on this little eight by 11 Mile Island.

Alex Ferrari 42:24
Oh, wow.

Kevin Reynolds 42:25
And they ultimately fell into internecine warfare. And, you know, the showrunners killed most of the lawyers. There's this one guy named aurania, who's supposed to be the descendant of the lawyers who survived. And they had this huge statue building called nobody can understand really, why did they build them so big they were statue building throughout Polynesia, but nobody can understand why they did them so big there. But they cut down all these trees and, and cut all these statues out of these craters and roll them around the island and erected in their hundreds of each little community. They're called Mui. So my story, what I wanted to do was try to explore why did they do this? And what is it about human beings that no matter where we are on the planet, there's something inherent in us, that makes us destroy ourselves environmentally

Alex Ferrari 43:19
Rght? You take this isolated group of humanity without any outside influence, and they did it to themselves. So that's kind of what I wanted to explore in the story.

Kevin Reynolds 43:30
You know, and coming off Robin Hood, being hot and thinking I could do anything and you know, I can overcome any obstacle. I will go to Easter Island and shoot this. It's the hardest movie I've ever made.

Alex Ferrari 43:45
Wait a minute, let's rapanui is the hardest movie.

Kevin Reynolds 43:49
Yeah

Alex Ferrari 43:50
That's your filmography? Sir. That is a statement and a half.

Kevin Reynolds 43:54
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
Really? Yeah. Cuz I was because I saw it. I was like, I wonder if they shot this. I mean, it looks like they shot this on Easter Island. And I'm like, you, you you were crazy enough to go shoot this on these?

Kevin Reynolds 44:06
Yeah, we were. There's so many ways I won't bore you with it. But it was just it was nuts.

Alex Ferrari 44:12
It was it was insane. And, and, but it's beautiful. And it has that, that that Kevin Reynolds kind of style to it, that you carry throughout your filmography. And I think it's and I remember it coming out. And it did. I mean, obviously, it was it didn't do well. Nothing. It didn't it was it wasn't necessarily as successful as Robin Hood. That's a fair statement.

Kevin Reynolds 44:37
Yes.

Alex Ferrari 44:40
Yeah, I mean, really, it just like was it wasn't because of lack of, you know, because you don't have any major stars and I mean, Jason, Jason, Jason Scott Lee was just off of Dragon right. It was before dragon .

Kevin Reynolds 44:53
Yeah. And he saw Mirallas and yeah, it was it, you know, cast relative unknowns. But I mean, you know, we had to do it that way to try to cast people look like up a New Orleans.

And another part of the problem is the vast majority of public has no idea what happened on Easter Island. I mean, we would show it at screenings. And people would ask, Well, where is this place? And like, what what century was this? And, you know, they had no concept of what we were trying to portray. It could have been on Mars, for all they knew they didn't they just didn't grasp it at all, then I don't think I think in a lot of ways, the picture just simply didn't work. You know, it didn't translate from from screenplay to screen we had hoped it would.

It's the most, in some ways, I think it was the island itself, because that's the most haunted place I've ever been to.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
Really.

Kevin Reynolds 45:47
Yeah, it's almost like the island didn't want us to tell the story. It was. I know, it sounds ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 45:54
No, no, I get you. I get you.

Kevin Reynolds 45:55
It's a creepy place. I mean, God knows what happened in that island.

Alex Ferrari 45:59
I mean, God knows what kind of I mean

Kevin Reynolds 46:02
A lot of bad things. A lot of really bad. You can just feel there's a malevolence there that I've never felt anywhere else. And

Alex Ferrari 46:11
I'll tell you know, I actually, when I went to New York the last year, as if it hadn't been to New York in probably a decade, I went to to ground zero. And when I was literally walking onto Ground Zero, you could just feel I mean, I don't want to get hokey hokey pokey on everybody here, but you felt you felt something, there's definitely a heaviness there. So I can imagine. That's kind of like the only thing I can equate it to.

Kevin Reynolds 46:43
Or you have to you have to realize these people are isolated. They had no concept about what was out there. To me. It was like, our concept about where we are in space, because they had to wonder what's out there. They've been so isolated for 100 years, they had no idea what was in the rest of the world. You know, and so they they conjured up these notions themselves and this religion that they had. And I remember one day there was a guy who was a word with Jacques Cousteau, and he lived there on Adelaide Marietta, Rapa Nui, and girl Monday, he was taking me around on a tour, we went up to one end of it called the pinkie peninsula. And I'll place it like an open archeological site. But we we just pulled off the road near where we'd been shooting recently. And he said to me, I want to show you something we walk over and he just lifts this rock off the ground, there's a hole about this big. He says, Come on. So he gets a lamp, and we just crawl down in this hole, probably about 15 feet down. And I'm like, where are we going, and it's just so tight. And finally, we get down there to the bottom and crawl into this chamber that opens up and He shines his light. And there are 20 human skeletons in there.

And it's like this family place where people had buried their dead, you know, for centuries, you know, and the islanders know, is here, but you're not even aware that it's like everywhere. And

Alex Ferrari 48:04
Because there's nowhere else to go, like you're not shipping this off somewhere, nowhere else to go.

Kevin Reynolds 48:09
And I remember the first time I went, I mean, well before shooting a couple years before, just explore the place and there were no rules. And you could just walk all over it. I mean, there's, you walk up to the ahoo, which are the platforms that the mo is set on, and you look down inside, and there'd be human bones and stuff. And there are no paved roads. So we hired a jeep and we're driving around, we hired the Jeep, you know, from the guy and and he said, What are you gonna bring it back and I go tomorrow? He goes, Okay, we'll just park it there and leave the keys in it. And I'm like, Well, what if somebody steals it? Because where are they gonna take it? Like, it's good point.

Alex Ferrari 48:51
What is it eight miles by 10 miles?

Kevin Reynolds 48:52
Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 48:55
That's hilarious.

Kevin Reynolds 48:56
Yeah. So we were driving around the island off road, come to this amazing ahoo look inside and it's just, it's stunning. You can walk up in there all these human bones and being the asshole that I was I took this little piece of bone.

Alex Ferrari 49:11
Ohh

Kevin Reynolds 49:13
Yeah. It's like,

Alex Ferrari 49:15
it's like, it's like The Brady Bunch. It's like the Brady Bunch. It's like the Brady Bunch episode when they took the totem. And now all the bad luck starts.

Kevin Reynolds 49:24
We get over to the other side of the gun later that day, and we come over this rise, and it's you know, it's like windy and stuff. We're the only people there's nobody around us. And we come over and we're trying to get to this other giant ahoo. And, you know, it's amazing. But as soon as we come over this hill and down the hill, everything goes still. There's no sound. All the insects stop the wind stops. You can see the ocean and it's like a millpond. It's completely caught as just like creepy. We get out we're walking around and I'm looking around and saw who and out the corner of my eyes. I look up and I see something like a finger something dropped down behind this. Ah, who am I? What was that? And I walk around behind it. There's nothing there. Was it a dog? What was it but just chill just went up my spine. So I said, My buddy that I'm with Mikey, my agent Mike and I said, Let's get out of here. So we get back in the jeep and we drive away. And as we go back over the hill, all the sound starts again, the wind comes up, the insects start.

We get back to town and this little place that we're staying that night, the hotel, you know, it's after dinner, and we're talking to the lady that runs the place and describing our day. And I tell her about this, you know what had happened? And she goes, when I finish, take anything.

Alex Ferrari 50:46
Did you take anything?

Kevin Reynolds 50:49
I said, Yeah, she goes, put it back.

And she explained to me that every month, they would get packages from all over the world sent by people who'd taken things it said, I took this rock or I took this bone and ever since I did terrible things have been happening to me. And I know it's because I took this and the Polynesians had this thing called mana, which is this power that exists in things and they believe in it. And I thought it was just BS. This is why it's the most haunted place I've ever been to. So yeah, I put it back.

Alex Ferrari 51:26
So it was literally The Brady Bunch episode where they took the total

Kevin Reynolds 51:32
but I I must.

Alex Ferrari 51:35
Yeah, they had it was a lot It was Hawaii. They took a totem and and then they start all this bad stuff started. Wow, I'd heard of stories like that. In Hawaii then like you take a rock and you anchor the the Hawaiian gods. Yeah, there too.

Kevin Reynolds 51:52
Yeah. Yeah

Alex Ferrari 51:53
It's really wow. I'm glad I didn't take any rocks when I was in Hawaii. So So after Rapa Nui the you know, because of the massive success of rapanui. They decide to give you one of the most expensive because Hollywood. Hollywood knows what they're doing. Apparently they're like, you know this? No, I'm joking. But, but you you you get on to Waterworld. And how did that whole project come together? Was that Kevin leading the charge? Julie the charge? How did that whole thing fit together?

Kevin Reynolds 52:28
Well, Kevin and I weren't getting long after Robin Hood I don't want to get into it, but more. And so somebody sent me the script, man. And I really liked it. And it was Larry Gordon, who at the time was the head of Fox and he asked me to come in and talk to him. And I did and said there and I was telling me I really like this. You know, I think it's a really cool script is Peter Rader script. Yeah. And Larry as well, there's a huge movie star that's really interested in it to really wants to do this. I'm like, Oh, yeah, who's that? And he goes, Kevin Costner. I'm like, I don't want to do that. And anyway, long story short, Larry gets back together again. And we agreed to do it. And that was

Alex Ferrari 53:20
The beginning.

Kevin Reynolds 53:20
There were stories. You know

Alex Ferrari 53:23
No. I know. I mean, we everyone's heard the stories of, you know, the legendary stories of Waterworld. And I've had Peter on the show as well. So I heard a lot of a lot of stuff from his point of view. He was like, Alex, I was on set for two or three days. I don't know, you know, however long he was a week or two or whatever. He goes, I just got to sit and watch some of the stuff. But again, just like Easter Island, like, hey, let's go shoot on Easter Island. You said hey, let's go shoot this in the ocean. Which I get it makes sense. But I guess you underestimated the power of nature. And, and everything. How was that? Like being in the middle of that storm? Literally and figuratively?

Kevin Reynolds 54:02
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, when I first decided to, again, you're still in that mode. As you know, young filmmaker, like I can overcome anything you throw at me, I'll figure it out, and I'll make it work. But I called Steven Spielberg when I decided I want to do this. And I asked him, I said, Look, there's a project Waterworld. It's all set on the ocean. And, you know, you did Jaws, and do I do I really want to do this. And he goes, you may use that I would never work on the water again. Okay. And, you know, I didn't heed his advice. And I went and saw Sid sheinberg, who was the head of universal did the show. And I'm talking to him and I'm like, you know, we're talking about the budget and all this stuff. I go said, you know, we're gonna be responsible stuff, but, you know, I was talking to Steven and Steven tells me that the original schedule on Jaws was five days. And they ended up shooting 155 days. Instead just sit there for a second. Yes. I don't remember the schedule, but I do know they went 100% over budget.

Alex Ferrari 55:20
Wow.

Kevin Reynolds 55:23
Okay, is that I, you know, I hope you remember that he goes, Oh, I do. And they were they were aware of the, you know, the danger, dangers of what could happen shooting on the water. And the thing that annoys me about people, you know, criticize movies and stuff is a you know, there are a lot of people felt like, we were just being profligate that we just went out there. And we were just, you know, all sitting around eating bonbons and drinking, you know, pina coladas. And we weren't, it was, it was very tough, you know, yes, we were, you know, very well taken care of, but it was a very, very difficult picture. But anybody that shoots on the water like that is going to encounter it. And consequently, you know, 25 years later, that's why people do CGI. I don't know if that people ever do something like that, again, because so much of what we did was in camera, it was nice. And you just don't appreciate the difficulty. It's just stuff you take for granted where, you know, you set up a shot, you got a camera boat, you've got somebody on a boat in front of you, and then you've got background loads, you got a horizon behind because you're always having to shoot so that you've got a clean horizon, to maintain the notion that, you know, there's no land. And so we pick the west coast of the Big Island of Hawaii, where there was like 160 degree view out to open water, relatively little traffic. That's what we chose to shoot. But when you set up a shot that looks very simple in the in the film, like I was just describing, you don't realize their currents. And so your camera, and your subject boat here in the background, they're all drifting differently. So you can't hold a frame. So ever to try to move things back into frame just to hold the frame, ultimately, ever times where if the currents really bad, you can't turn a sheep towards land, you always have to shoot out toward the water. And sometimes the sun would be low, and it's looking, right, you're looking right into the sun. So you have to find all these variations for how you can get around that. There were times where we'd have to send divers down, attach a line to the boat or trying to shoot, anchor it to the bottom on a pulley where they could move it and pull it to try to maintain some control over the boat that was in front of camera.

And so when you see it on film, you go big deal. Yeah, it's a boat. And there's some background behind it. You don't realize what it took to do something that would be relatively simple on land to do it on water like that. And every day was like that every day.

Alex Ferrari 57:59
And and everything you just described can be done in about five or 10 minutes. It doesn't take a long time to send the divers down, lock in the boat. It control you know, it just what when when you're talking about Steven and Jaws, I mean, he had one boat and a mechanical shark. You had like a floating city. And it seemed to me I know, it wasn't hundreds, but it seemed like you know, 20 3040 support vehicles, whether it be you know, land, water skis or boats, or that it was it was what Peter said, it's Mad Max on the water. It's that

Kevin Reynolds 58:34
We had a Navy department that did nothing but run boats. I mean, if you think about it, we had this a toll was anchored about a mile offshore outside of a harbor called Kawhia. Literally, The Big Foot floating a tunnel and there were multiple lines from that went down to the bottom was about 100 feet deep and they anchored it on the bottom they had to otherwise it would drift away. And it would rotate on those lines. But when you go out there when you're doing a big scene, like a battle scene where you've got hundreds of extras, and you've got special effects and stuff, you don't realize, okay, you've got a whole barge is nothing but porta potties, you know. And so you get up in the morning, you have to run all those people through wardrobe, you have to feed them. You have to put them on boats and ferry them out to the a toll get them in position for whatever shots you're doing. And then once you shoot for a little bit, it's lunchtime. And so then you have to ferry all people back into shore to feed them and then go back out for the afternoon. And that's it. It's just incredibly cumbersome.

Alex Ferrari 59:42
I I'm just baffled that the studio agreed to go down this road. I mean, if everybody knew like there's no way you can make a day. Did you ever make a day? Like it's it's out of your control?

Kevin Reynolds 59:56
A few times? Yeah. Original I think our original schedule was I think we finally agreed on it, like 120 days, and I think we should, you know, almost shot 170 days.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:07
Jesus, that's actually impressive,

Kevin Reynolds 1:00:11
though, I mean, you know, I defy anybody else to, you know, overcome it, dude, do what I think we did. It was it was tough, like I said, and it's all most of it's in camera. Yes, there are effects in the show, but most of what you see was shot in camera.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
And and heard if I remember correctly, there was a was there a hurricane that destroyed a whole bunch of sets or something happened like that?

Kevin Reynolds 1:00:37
You know, that was that was the rumor that the whole a toll sunk? That's true. Yes, we had, we had we had an earthquake off the coast of Japan once one morning, we had to like, move everybody in shore up high, because we didn't know if there's gonna be a tsunami or not. It will happen. They have we not lost another half day just on that. But the thing that did sink, there's one sequence where the mariner approach is just it looks like this big. Oh, I don't know. It's like a big mushroom sticking up out of the water. It's a trading post. And the smokers and Dennis Hopper have arrived there and they've killed everybody. And they've rigged their arms to wave and stuff. And we shot that that sank. That sank. That was not the a tool.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:22
Okay, so alright, so I remember at that time, that the press and the town, crucified the movie before a frame of it was even shown to people, you were being. I mean, it was and I remember being I was I was there. I remember just from a distance looking at it and going, Oh, my god, they're pounding on poor Kevin Reynolds on this like, so how? How do you direct? Because I'm assuming you were aware of this? Yeah. So how do you direct? How do you deal with that kind of stress.

Kevin Reynolds 1:02:07
It's, it's very difficult. It's not it's my least favorite filmmaking, because there's so many forces working on you, you're you're you really can't be flexible. Because when you have a shooting day that costs $300,000. You know, you can't change your mind about things is really, you have to kind of stick with the plan. Even if you get on set, you know, that doesn't work that well. But if we change that we lose a half a day, and we can't afford to do that again. So you can't be flexible. And you've got all these people looking over your shoulder. You know, and I understand because it's a hell of a lot of money. But it's it's not a fun way to work. It's just not a fun way to where I'll tell you one story that kind of summed up the whole press thing for me because we had you know guys who show up speedboats and try to combine shoot it and stuff and all these inflammatory things and exaggerations. One day, the we were shooting a sequence outside the harbor on the catamaran and I had a camera, the camera guys up on the mast at about 40 feet up to guys and it was trying to do a shot, we were looking down and on the activity down below and then tilt up to the horizon.

And we're anchored offshore in the swell comes up and the catamaran starts kind of going like this. And I look over and the mast is kind of bending a little bit like that. And so I turned to the boat guy, boat master and said Bruno, is this safe? He looks at but it goes now.

Okay, well, we have to wrap out of this and go inside because we can't have these two guys fall off here. So we did we had to wrap, go back inside the harbor, shoot something else lose another half day. Okay, the next day, our publicist from the States, some journalists who goes, Okay. I've had this confirmed by two sources. So don't lie to me. I want you to tell me about the two camera guys that were killed in the accident yesterday. Because what? You don't lie to us, we know this happen and you guys are covering up. So tell us the truth. We know you lost two people in an accident strategies. It didn't happen. That was the kind of stuff that went on.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:25
Oh my god, I can't look. Directing a film is arguably one of the most stressful things a human being can do. And that again, war and all of that I understand when the creative arts. absolutely one of the most difficult things you can do. Right? Working in Hollywood in the studio system is probably one of the most difficult things you can do working with 150 $175 million budget on your shoulders. And the stress of that is one of the most difficult things you can do and then having to deal with that kind of lunacy. I mean, you must have it's kind of the presidency like when you see one come in, and then four years later, eight years later, they've aged 50 years, I have to imagine that the habits with the end of this process

Kevin Reynolds 1:05:09
Yes, it does, and it changes you, you know, it really changes you, and your outlook. And you know, after that, I don't really like those kind of movies, honest. They're not fun. They're just not fun.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:24
And the making of them, or the kind of story or

Kevin Reynolds 1:05:27
The storytelling aspect of this story is interesting, but the making of them is so difficult, and it's not as organic, I prefer smaller pictures where you have more control. You can be more flexible than then big ones like that. I mean, you still see it that I mean, all these big superhero movies and stuff. They're very much like that, you know, but it's all CG, CG, CG, but it's still it's it's hundreds of millions of dollars in his filmmaking by committee. And it's, it's just not that organic. Some people thrive on that, and they like it. I'm not one of those people. I prefer to do smaller things where you're, it's more your domain.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:07
So the movie comes out. And everyone's like, it's the biggest bomb in history and all this stuff, which was such, you know, for to use a term of our of our time fake news. Because it ended up actually doing well. And then I was talking to Peter. And he said, it's one of the most valuable IPS and profitable IPS in the entire catalogue of Universal Studios. Right. So do you feel a little vindicated?

Kevin Reynolds 1:06:37
Yeah, I mean, I look at some of their pictures that were much people want, they lost a lot more money than Waterworld. It's just once you sort of get tainted with Oh, yeah. You know, you can't lose that. It's very difficult. I mean, Hollywood. It's more interesting that something's controversial, and it's going bad. And to hear that everything's going well, was boring. It's more interesting. Of course, it's more interesting. And so they thrive on that. And somebody told me the first time they screened a picture in New York or something for critics, and they walked out. And this one critic was so disappointed. He goes, Well, it didn't suck. And that was his comment.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:20
Right? They wanted it to be the worst.

Kevin Reynolds 1:07:23
Nope, play. Horrible.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:26
And I'm disappointed that it was not as bad as I thought it would be. I actually, I watched it when I watched it. I watched it again recently. It's fun. It's a fun. It's just a fun film. It's just a good, good adventure film. Dennis Hopper, again, chews up the scenery.

Kevin Reynolds 1:07:50
You're being kind I mean, there are a lot of problems with the movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:53
I know. But you got it. I know I look I under I understand like it, but it's enjoy. I look, I enjoyed it. It is an enjoyable film. And it's just a good fun adventure. adventure film, but it is, is one of those films that is historically, you know, tainted, but the truth. And that's what I tried to do even in my little way, with Peters interview and not with yours. I'm like, no, it's arguably one of the most profitable IPS that they have. And I think they're working. I know, you can't say yea or nay. But I heard they're working on trying to do something new with it. Because it's a, it's a great IP.

Kevin Reynolds 1:08:27
I, you know, I don't know if they're gonna do their picture or not, you know, they made a fortune off the ride

Alex Ferrari 1:08:32
Oh, we're

Kevin Reynolds 1:08:34
You know it's been gone for 25 years now.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:36
It's still it's still there. I've seen that show probably three, four or five times and maybe more in my in my life, and it's still going.

Now, I have to ask you, because you've had both you've had extreme highs in this business, and you've had extreme lows. How do you deal with that as a creative professional, like I said, like, I mean, because it's being being an artist, and being a creative in general is tough. But, you know, I'm just curious, how do you do with it?

Kevin Reynolds 1:09:07
You know, I think you just have to have something inside you that makes you want to continue to tell stories so badly that, as I said before, that you're willing to subject yourself to the process. And I don't know why maybe it's a masochistic thing. You know, they're probably certainly better ways to make a living, but it's a compulsion I guess

Alex Ferrari 1:09:31
I equated to an illness is once you get bitten by that bug, I always say that I've said this a million times. It's like if you're getting if you get bitten by the bug, you are infected, and then we'll never go away, it will flare up. And it can go dormant for 30 years because I got I got guys reaching out to me who are in their 60s, and like like I just retired, but I really want to do is direct, so I and it's like and I'm like how do I start? You know, I've been a doctor all my life.

But I've really just want to tell stories. And like if they got bitten, it was suppressed for 30 odd years and now it's it's flared up. It never, ever goes away. And it's it's fascinating that that whole thing. Now one of the one of the films in your filmography that I think it's not as you know, not as known is 187, I absolutely loved 187. And when I was directing some, some of my directing work, I actually would bring in my DPS, and we would watch 187 because some of the stuff that you did in that, with the color grading choices you did for the time, was pretty this is, was this pre I think this was pre DI right

Kevin Reynolds 1:10:42
There.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:43
It was pre di so there was no, no digital color grading. So you were doing stuff in camera. So it was really remarkable. How did you what what guided you in your color grading choices in that film? Because it's pretty, pretty intense?

Kevin Reynolds 1:10:57
Well, I mean, coming off of Waterworld, as I said, which was not fun, I wanted to do something that was more experimental, where we could just really take a lot of chance, you know, creatively. And God bless him. I mean, it was Mel Gibson's company icon that came to me with the project. And I have to say, you know, males had all kinds of problems. So but he was, he was, maybe the greatest producer I've ever worked with. He was he could not have been more supportive, and nicer.

You know, and though in the way he let me make that picture, he was wonderful. And so we were able to take a lot of chances. And I brought in a young guy named Erickson core his DP. And we just went to town we we looked at every scene is an opportunity to do something different, you know, from color grading, we use a lot of swing and tilt lenses, and the frame or some stuffs out of focus and some stuff sharp. There's a sequence where in a classroom we wanted to, we wanted to show one of the characters like on a TV, like on a TV.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:12
Yeah, TV, a TV monitor, yeah

Kevin Reynolds 1:12:14
TV monitor. So Erickson went out and bought a fisher price toy camera. And that's what we shot it with, and then took that image and translated it to film. And so we just did a lot of stuff like that. And it was really exciting. And it was really invigorating. And it just kind of rekindled. You know, a lot of creative energy that I'd lost doing. Waterworld. That picture didn't do that didn't do any business, but I'm very proud of it. Sam Jackson was great.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:44
That was his first starring role, like you've source like, you know, he was the leading character in it like it was out.

Kevin Reynolds 1:12:51
I mean, he done Pulp Fiction already.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:53
But that but it wasn't. He was it wasn't like, it wasn't the Sam Jackson show. Like it was he was the star of that movie. And I and I like it because I mean, you know, Sam has sort of a persona that everybody knows him for. And he really sort of went against character.

Yeah

Kevin Reynolds 1:13:10
That role. And he wanted to do it. He came to us, he wanted to do it. And I'm like, great. And he was he was wonderful to work with. He's a total Pro.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:20
Now. There was that one scene, by the way in in 187. That deer Deer Hunter seen. How do you How did you approach that? Because that's intense. intense. I just re watched it the other day. Such an intense he?

Kevin Reynolds 1:13:35
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:36
How do you how do you like directing a scene like that? Because both those actors have both Sam and I forgot. Clifton. Yeah, he, so there's just just two juggernauts in acting. How do you direct a scene like that?

Kevin Reynolds 1:13:51
You know, is they I still remember the day we shot that there was so much energy on set. I mean, everybody was amped up for that scene, really amped up, and everybody, I mean, not just the actors, but all the support personnel, cameras, everybody and everybody, it was great, because you could just see everybody kind of sitting back delicately and watching it unfold and trying to be supportive, you know, and their own way me for makeup effects everything. Everybody was really into it. You know, a lot of times when you shoot sometimes people don't care, they just kind of show up do their job, like everybody's really into that scene. And you feel it, you feel it. And it really imbued the moment with that energy. And, and that's why you do pictures is for those kind of occasions, you know, kind of energy to experience that.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:39
That's awesome. And there was one film in your filmography that I absolutely just adore, which is Count of Monte Cristo. I absolutely adore Count of Monte we just my wife and I just watched it I think probably like two or three months ago, we watch it every few years because it's such a wonderfully I mean, obviously the story, Dumas did okay. If you I mean, he's alright he's alright. But um, I'm gonna give you all the credit. No. But that's such a fantastic story. And the way that that the actors and Richard Harris and Jim Caviezel and Luis Guzman, I mean, just so brilliantly done. What about the revenge story? In not only in cinema, but in literature is so satisfying? Why do we love watching that? Because obviously, I think, Count of Monte Cristo is the ultimate, just wonderfully constructed revenge story. What is it about? About it that destroys, but everybody has things that go on in their lives that they'd like revenge for. And so they can sort of vicariously appreciate someone who managed to get it. And that's why I think people empathize so much with characters who've been so wronged. Turn the tables and on the people that have done it to them, because I think everybody feels like I've been wronged in some way. And I would love to do that, too. And I think that's why it's so appealing to an audience. That was a tough, I mean, Jay Walpert, the guy that did the adaptation did a really fine job, he changed a lot of things. And there are a lot of people that complain, because they say, well, this film is not the book. It's not.

Kevin Reynolds 1:16:21
My attitude is it can't be I mean that the book is 1500 pages long. It's like, how long did it take you to read the book? And they'll go, Well, it took me a week. Yeah, well, we didn't have a week to tell the story. So we had two hours. So necessarily, you have to compress and combine and do things to try to keep the spirit of it.

You know, it's just a necessity. And so, because of that, you're going to leave a lot of people's favorite moments out.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:49
Of course

Kevin Reynolds 1:16:50
Everybody's different area what you love this out. You love that? Yes, I'm sorry. But we had to pick and choose because, as I said, we only had two hours of screenplays, 100 pages, 120 pages, it's not 1500 pages. So you know of necessity. That's what happens when you take a novel and turn it into into a film.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:09
And then you also did the Hatfields and McCoys which you reunited with Mr. Costner? Well, first of all, I loved it. I saw it on the History Channel, and it came out and I was just like, this is awesome. How, how was it just working with an old friend, I guess, back, you know, back.

Kevin Reynolds 1:17:28
It was great. I mean, you know, we had a shorthand, you know, we knew each other could communicate in a way that you can't always communicate with other people just because, you know, the past and the relationship and all but that was avios McCoy's, ever. That was a special production. It was a great cast.

Oh, Bill Paxton. Oh, God, he was amazing

Bill Park. And I have to thank you know, Fern champion, who was our casting director and the Hubbard's from Hubbard casting in London, you know, put together fabulous cast, everybody was good. And that was what was great. And, and it was another one of those shows that you hoped for. I mean, we shot Romanian Romanian crew, and they were so eager, and so wanted to prove themselves. And they were just wonderful. And, and it was, everybody really got into it wanted it to do well. And it was a real team.

And, you know, I'll always remember that one time, like, yeah

Alex Ferrari 1:18:27
And, and, and one thing to be said, I mean, obviously, you've had your ups and downs with Kevin, over the years. When I saw you guys get back together again, for Hatfields and McCoys. I was like, okay, they, they've, they've, you know, they're they're working together again. Is there something to be said about, about just getting older, and just, you know, figuring things out? Because there's things like, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely I mean, I'm, I'm older, but I'm not, you know, I'm not older, older. Let's say, it depends what you say, I'm getting into the weeds here. My daughter's think I'm ancient. So there you go. They're like, Daddy, when Titanic came out, it was 97 was that before you were born? I'm like, Oh, Jesus Christ. I wish it was. I was born in it.

But, um, but how just as a director, the things you do as a young director, you age your filmography changes. There's things that got me excited in my 20s, as far as storytelling is concerned, that I wouldn't even think of doing today because it's just not the kind of stories I want to tell. How can you talk a little bit about that whole process and then just also working? Again, like we talked a little bit about it, but just like, understanding the maturity of an old friend, regardless of the ups and downs of relationships.

Kevin Reynolds 1:19:42
Yeah, you evolve, you know, I mean, like everybody does, as you get older, you kind of mellow and a lot of ways and things as you said that were extremely important to you 30 years ago aren't so important now and you have more perspective and that enables you to approach things, I think in a more objective way. The downside is, I think there's a lot to be said, when you're young of being kind of young and stupid and enthusiastic and blindly going into things and finding stuff out of your own stupidity, you lose that as you get older, you know, you do, you do kind of rely on experience more. And so it's a balance, it's a balance of trying to realize, okay, it's important to remember the prior experiences and to not repeat mistakes, but at the same time, be opento new experiences, and new ways of doing things to just keep yourself fresh. Otherwise, you get ossified, because God knows things change, especially in the film business. I mean, it is so not what it what I started today, it's very different. completely different. It's always evolved. I mean, look, you know, 100 years ago, we're doing silent pictures. It's it's always evolved. I'm a little disturbed by what it's become now. I don't know. And I'm sure I sound like a Keizer when I'm talking about, you know, wow, when I was doing it, you know, it was much more exciting. And we didn't do it that way. And it changes, it changes.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:21
Yeah, no question. And it's changing now, by by the month be like, every, every month, there's something new happening because of what happened with code, what's happening with COVID, and all that stuff. But up until the 80s, really, the business hadn't changed a whole lot. Like it was pretty, the 90s. It was the 80s, VHS showed up when VHS showed up that started to change. It did, it did. But I mean, you know, even the 90s, the studios were healthy. We were still shooting on film, to the agencies and all had not really changed that much. People saw it as a golden time and anything was possible. There's a lot of fear. Now, there's a lot of fear, because things are not as lucrative as they once were. Sadly, I think theatrical cinema is dying. It's, I mean, you can, you can pretend that it's not and, and, you know, God bless Chris Nolan and hisyou know, and his adherence to film as a medium, I mean, real film, but it's going away, you know, it, the digital age is here. And you have to, you have to be flexible enough to realize that technology changes, and this is the way it's going to be in the future. And the actual is just it's dying, there will still be showcased pictures out there. But in terms of the way the vast majority of public consumes their content, that's forever changed. And it's it's going, it's streaming inside the home. That's where it's going now. And I don't think we're going back.

Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. What is the one thing you wish you could tell your younger self?

Kevin Reynolds 1:23:08
25 words or less?

Alex Ferrari 1:23:10
even got 26?

Kevin Reynolds 1:23:14
That's a tough one. Boy. Be more flexible, be more flexible?

Alex Ferrari 1:23:25
That's Yeah, I always I always said, My answer is always be patient, because it's not gonna it's not gonna happen as fast as you think it's gonna happen. You You did you actually didn't move as fast as you thought was good.

Kevin Reynolds 1:23:39
Yeah, I mean, it's, look, I've had a great ride. And, you know, nobody does it perfectly. And yes, there are things I wish I'd done differently. As I'm sure everybody does, but I've been incredibly fortunate, you know, to get to do the things that I've been allowed to do. Because there's so many people that would like to be in my shoes and have the same opportunities and they're not able to. So I'm extremely grateful for all it's been handed to me.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:10
Now, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Kevin Reynolds 1:24:18
It's tougher than ever. It's the toughest job in the world. Like Demetri said, but don't let that stop you. Because you have to take the attitude. If somebody says, look, only 1% of people make it in the business succeed. You have to approach it and believe that you're that 1%.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:39
It's insanity. It's insane.

Kevin Reynolds 1:24:41
You may not be and the odds are against you, you know, but you have to believe you're the guy that's gonna make it because if you don't, you won't. It will get ground up and you may get beaten down. But if you're gonna try to do it, and you want to go down that path, you have an even have a chance at making it. You have to have that attitude.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:05
Can you can you own this? I want to say one thing I always tell two people and I want to see what you think about it. I totally junk filmmakers coming up all the time I go, look, I want to prepare you for the realities of the business. I have a lot of shrapnel, different shrapnel than you but I have shrapnel from 25 years of being in the business. You're going to get punched in the face. I don't care who you are. Everybody, anybody you look up to in the business, from Spielberg to Nolan to Fincher to Kubrick, everybody got punched in the face, not once.

Kevin Reynolds 1:25:41
Over, and over and over.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:43
And I want you to be prepared for the punch. Because a lot of times I see these young filmmakers who have these stars in their eyes, you know it we all I was that you had those stars, and I mean, to a certain extent as well. And they don't see the punch coming. And when the punch comes, sometimes it knocks them out for good. Like I said earlier, I want them to be able to take that punch. And then maybe as you get older, I think you would agree with me. Occasionally you'd learn how to duck.

Kevin Reynolds 1:26:08
You do you get smarter. But it all goes back to as I said, originally, you have to be willing to subject yourself to the process.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:16
That's great.

Kevin Reynolds 1:26:16
That's what I have to do. And you have to realize, as you said, you're going to get punched repeatedly. And you'll get up and you'll get blindsided because you won't be paying attention because you're focused on what you're trying to do. And you'll get hit again and you'll get knocked down. But you have to get up. And that's the career that you've chosen. If you're going to do this. It's a battle royale every day, the entire career. And you have to ask yourself, Am I willing to do that? Is it worth it to me? Do I really want to tell stories badly enough to subject myself to that? And if the answer is Yeah, then do it. If you if you waver and if you're not sure, don't go down that road because you'll be destroyed.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:00
And last question, and arguably the most difficult one, three of your favorite films of all time. Well, three that come to your mind right now. Three that comes to your mind right now.

Kevin Reynolds 1:27:11
Right now? I always say this because the one I remember had the most profound effect on me originally was Dr. Zhivago. I've always loved I've always loved David Lane, but I still remember that how that picture made me feel. And I guess maybe the second one is probably 2001.

And then the next two that immediately come to mind probably Butch Cassidy Sundance Kid and the I'll say the fourth one. Badlands Terrence Malick.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:40
Yes. Badlands those are good good good choices sir. Good, good propped up my head.

Kevin Reynolds 1:27:47
There's lots of them. But those those four, I can go down a Kubrick rabbit hole with you anytime I saw Jesus. But Kevin, thank you so much for doing this. It's been an absolute pleasure and honor talking to you and talking shop with you. So thank you for, for enriching my life with your films over the course of your career and for everything you do my friend, thank you so much.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's It's fun to sit down and relive these things with someone that can understand. Thank you, my friend.

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BPS 255: Richard Linklater – Slacker, Indie Cinema & How to Become a Writer

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Well, I put out an episode back in 2019 putting my dream list of guests out into the universe, and in the past four months, I’ve been humbled to have some amazing filmmakers and screenwriters on the show. Incredibly one of those dream guests has made his way on the show today.

We are joined by indie film icon and Oscar® nominated writer/director Richard Linklater. Richard was one of the filmmakers who helped to launch the independent film movement that we know today with his classic 1991 indie film Slacker. As a bonus, we will not only dive into the extraordinary career of Richard Linklater but also that of collaborator and longtime friend writer/director Katie Cokinos, the filmmaker behind the film I Dream Too Much. 

If this is your introduction to Linklater and his work, here are a few highlights you must know; Linklater helped launch the 90s indie film renaissance with his film Slacker.

The producer, director has juggled the TV, film, short-film, and documentary genres seamlessly over his career – typically focusing in fine detail on generational rites and mores with rare compassion and understanding while definitively capturing the 20-something culture of his era through a series of nuanced, illuminating ensemble pieces which introduced any number of talented young actors into the Hollywood ecosystem.

One of the talents to emerge from this era is the Texas native, Matthew McConaughey in Linklater’s third movie and VHS smash hit, Dazed and Confused. Based on Linklater’s years at Huntsville High School and the people he encountered there, the film shadows the adventures of high school and junior high students on the last day of school in May 1976.

Throughout his career, Richard has chosen to tell stories about the human condition, while many times making us laugh and cry at the same time. I found an immense philosophical undercurrent to most of his life’s work. From The Before Trilogy to Boyhood, his films tackle topics in an honest, raw, and deeper way that is not normally seen in filmmaking.

Many of the actors who work with Richard call him the “Zen Director” on set. His philosophy can be felt throughout his work. He often tells a long and transformative coming-of-age story over years, if not decades, something that is unique to him.

His Oscar® nominated film Boyhood is a groundbreaking story of growing up as seen through the eyes of a child named Mason (a breakthrough performance by Ellar Coltrane), who literally grows up on screen before our eyes. Starring Ethan Hawke and Patricia Arquette as Mason’s parents and newcomer Lorelei Linklater as his sister Samantha, BOYHOOD charts the rocky terrain of childhood like no other film has before.

Snapshots of adolescence from road trips and family dinners to birthdays and graduations and all the moments in between becoming transcendent, set to a soundtrack spanning the years from Coldplay’s Yellow to Arcade Fire’s Deep Blue. BOYHOOD is both a nostalgic time capsule of the recent past and an ode to growing up and parenting. It’s impossible to watch Mason and his family without thinking about our own journey.

Now the other remarkable filmmaker in this conversation is Katie Cokinos. She has made over ten short films and in 2000 wrote, directed, and acted in the feature film, Portrait of a Girl as a Young Cat which premiered at SXSW.  Katie produced Eagle Pennell’s film, Heart Full of Soul (1990); was a publicist for Richard Linklater’s Slacker, (1990).  She was the Managing Director of the Austin Film Society, 1990-95.

Her latest film is the coming of age story I Dream Too Much, co-produced by Richard. Here’s a bit about the film: Presents a day in the life in Austin, Texas among its social outcasts and misfits, predominantly the twenty-something set, using a series of linear vignettes. These characters, who in some manner just don’t fit into the establishment norms, move seamlessly from one scene to the next, randomly coming and going into one another’s lives. Highlights include a UFO buff who adamantly insists that the U.S. has been on the moon since the 1950s, a woman who produces a glass slide purportedly of Madonna’s pap smear, and an old anarchist who sympathetically shares his philosophy of life with a robber.

So much was covered in this EPIC two hours conversation. I need to stop here and let you dive in.

Enjoy my conversation with Richard Linklater and Katie Cokinos.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:12
I like to welcome to the show Richard Linklater and Katie Cokinos. How you guys doing? Thank you so much for being on the show, guys.

Richard Linklater 0:19
Right. Good to be with you, Alex.

Katie Cokinos 0:21
Yeah, so much fun.

Alex Ferrari 0:23
So, um, you know, I'm excited to talk to both of you about your latest project. I dream too much of the project you guys did together. I know. It's been around for a few minutes. So it's not the latest latest project. But we're going to talk about that that project a little bit. But I wanted to kind of talk about not only Rick's filmmaking career and what he's done, but Katie, how you how you've, you know, come up as a director as well and, and all these kind of other conversations about Phyllis philosophy and other things we're going to get into, but before we get started, because you actually, so because Katie, you were with Rick, when you guys were working. I mean, Rick, you were making slacker and Katie was around at that same time. Correct.

Richard Linklater 1:06
I first met Katie, I kind of was finishing it. Okay, you know, just right at the you with me those first premieres and yeah. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:19
you've been friends ever since?

Richard Linklater 1:23
Yes, yes.

Alex Ferrari 1:25
So let me ask you a question, Rick. What for so many, so many filmmakers coming up, especially have that magical time, which is the early 90s, which is the kind of like the birth of independent film as we know it today. You know, I mean, yes, there was, you know, prior to slacker, obviously, there was a month, you know, Easy Rider and things like that. But the whole Sundance, you know, for lack of a better term, kind of like the lottery ticket, kind of filmmakers like the Kevin Smith's and Roberts and those kinds of things. You were one of the first to come out in the early 90s. A lot of them look back at you. Like I just had Ed on the Edward burns on the show the other day, and he was talking about it was slacker I saw this the breakdown of the budget of slacker and it gave me hope that like, Oh, I could do it. There's someone else who did it. So you're like you broke the four minute mile, essentially, for a lot of filmmakers of that generation?

Richard Linklater 2:21
Yeah, you know, I think that perpetuates itself. Because I'm sitting there in 1989. Making my first I've made one feature before and a bunch of shorts, but I'm like, okay, I can do a no budget feature. But at that point, I'm thinking, you know, I was coming up there was an 80s paradigm to it wasn't Sundance based. I think that's really difference between the generations. It didn't have Sundance as a launch. It was just indie films. You know, john Sayles, right? wing wings Chan is missing. There were all these like 20 Eagle panels at Texas filmmaker Katie workwith. And I knew she has to make the low budget backyard. No budget personal movie that was a really kind of a archetype in indie filmmaking. He still is, you know, that's what you can do. You make what you know. And it's kind of interesting. And that's what I felt I was doing but at the time, I guess it was sort of a unique to Austin, that did mostly like horror films and things like that, right? Wasn't unique to cinema. You know, surely Clark had done it. And he had been happening in the 60s, the 50s. You know, there's a nice history of indie cinema. It just didn't really it was gaining more traction as a business as a, it had an outlet. There were these in a theater, there was a lot of festivals springing up, you know, cable and, you know, VHS tape, you know, there was suddenly there was an economy around it. So, in the 60s when you made your indie film, you showed it at a few film, the few film festivals, you played it at. You know, Jonas Mekas played in New York and they showed at Berkeley and a few it was a real scrounge around thing, you know, Cassavetes would hire a bunch of young, hungry, future distributors and like, Hey, we're going to distribute this film. We're going to get it out there, you know. So, it was just by the time I felt I came along and got lucky enough to get one of those distributors. The path was sort of a hit it already been. It was out there. I was just like a I was a 90s version of that.

Alex Ferrari 4:34
Right. And, and you um, yeah. But when you submitted slacker to Sundance, it got rejected right the first time.

Richard Linklater 4:41
Yeah. The first year 1990 number that Katie because we got Yeah, and it wasn't quite finished, you know, when I got it there, but I was still disappointed, but you know, came back the next year. In the meantime, I've had a very interesting year with it. You know, showed it in Berlin in the marketplace to four people.

Alex Ferrari 5:05
Stop right there. How did that How did that work out?

Katie Cokinos 5:09
That's a good festival. But when you

Richard Linklater 5:12
Oh, yeah,

Katie Cokinos 5:13
when you guys real breaking festival because it was we were standing outside watching all these people going in and we're like they're coming to see slacker like yes, it's sold out like here's,

Richard Linklater 5:26
we're in Seattle in summer of 1990. Right. So what does it look like? It looks like everybody in the film. Yeah, everybody in line looked like it was this perfect match. Yeah, you're preaching to the choir. I know. It was a first really great response that really was I had actually premiered it in Dallas, there was a thing called the USA Film Festival.

Alex Ferrari 5:51
Yeah.

Richard Linklater 5:52
And yeah, I got some really dismiss it. I remember waking up that morning to some really dismissive like, and this might have been a good short, but it's a bunch of awesome people not doing anything. You know, I read these to my first reviews ever, for something I worked so hard on it was just these total like poor reviews from Dallas. And then I think God, why even go to the screening? I was so like, oh, they're gonna hate it. I'm in Dallas, you know?

Katie Cokinos 6:19
It was Great,

Richard Linklater 6:20
but we did have a very good audience.

Katie Cokinos 6:23
They totally got it.

Richard Linklater 6:25
Yeah, so that was encouraging.

Katie Cokinos 6:27
But Dennis Hopper was there and it was a really fun festival. You're like that kit? Carson? Yeah.

Richard Linklater 6:36
Yeah, because meeting Sam are cough. Remember, they were featuring the great Spanner.

Katie Cokinos 6:42
terrible name. Mars needs women. Now that's a million dollar title. $30,000 movie?

Richard Linklater 6:50
Yeah he was like, kid. Yeah, I met it was just cool. All these you start meeting people. You're just so enthralled with meeting film history. sammarco Yeah, when he got to film here, well, what's your name? What's the title? a slacker. Oh, bad title. Bad title. You gotta have you like, how to stop a wild bikini. Now. That's a title. That's selling foreign. million dollar title $30,000 movie.

Alex Ferrari 7:19
And obviously, you've and obviously, you've been stuffing bikinis ever since in your career. And both of you guys ever since that's all you women.

Richard Linklater 7:29
Yeah, I remember watching all those movies on TV growing up. And you're meeting these guys behind it. He's like, we would have the poster made before we even did the movie just to see if it worked. If we could sell it. I go. There's a genius there studio should do that. You know, I've made enough movies where they go. We don't know how to market this is like, well, maybe you should. We should have done all that before. You know, if no one wants to see a movie called this that looks like this. And I mean, I'm glad I got to make it but you don't have yourself to blame. Do it. Sam arc cop did.

Katie Cokinos 8:00
Roger Corman. Yeah. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 8:02
I mean, he's the he's the king without question. Alright, so So who was? So for both of you? Who was the filmmaker? That was that catalyst that's that you said, Oh, I can make that because, you know, you can study Stanley Kubrick all day, and you can study, you could study the greats and the Masters. And we could all be depressed at 23 because we're not making Citizen Kane which is the the passage of the rites of passage, every filmmaker. Except so who was that one filmmaker, that you Rick and you Katie said like, you know what? They did it. I think I can make something.

Richard Linklater 8:34
Katie, why don't you jump in? Because we're probably on different timelines there as far as when we start thinking I can do that.

Katie Cokinos 8:43
Well. Okay, so growing up in the 70s and watching the Hollywood renaissance of cinema. I never thought I could do it. Because all I saw were guys names. And I would stay till the credits, just dying to see one. One female one Polly Platt, who was the production designer, one Elaine Mae, who was the screenwriter, you know, I'm never, I never thought I could do it. And it wasn't until college where my professors were turning me on to, you know, Agnes BARDA, Maya Darrin Shirley Clark. shawntel Aquaman. And so for me, it wasn't a budget thing. It was more of a I'm a woman. You know, and it looks like the boys club to me. You know, Howard hops john for john Houston. You know, and I, so, so do what I even have to say. would would that even be cinematic because I don't want to shoot Anybody, and I don't want to, you know, there's so many things I don't want. Don't want to do. It's like reading a book koski and going, Yeah, that's great. But, um, but I'm not an alcoholic, you know, or jack Kerouac going but I, you know, uh, you know, dude just says those things. So it took me a while, um, you know, but I do think I remember clearly checking I'm renting last night at the Alamo and taking it over to my sister's in Houston because I didn't even have a TV and watching it and thinking, wow, this was made for $30,000 because it was very well known Eagle got that film, from the National Endowment for the Arts grant. And it was all in one location. So that's when I started kind of thinking, Okay, you know, it's just First off, it's going to take some time to, to, to experience things that I even want to talk about, or even want to tell the story about. But then, you know, then then it you know, you just you get inspired, I'm in stages, I think, you know, so and then you see bad movies. I mean, Verner Hertzog is always telling, you know, don't see, you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:29
masterpieces.

Katie Cokinos 11:31
Yeah, don't see, you know, Chinatown.

Alex Ferrari 11:35
That's gonna depress you,

Richard Linklater 11:36
it's gonna depress you

Katie Cokinos 11:38
watch a movie. That's, that's, that's terrible. That's how you want to make to make movies. But anyway,

Richard Linklater 11:45
that kind of gives you confidence. At some point, when I say this. I just talked to a big class of grad students two days ago at University of Texas, via, you know, zoom, of course, but the thing we ended up talking about was confidence. You know, just how do you get the confidence to lead a group? How do you get the confidence to think you're worthy of a film? I mean, I didn't have that same restriction in a certain way that you had Katie, like, you don't see names that make you think you're wanted. It's just the way you would as a black or brown or Asian person. He's like, that's a white space. You know, right. I didn't, even though I'm a white male. I saw it as a white trash kid from East Texas. I saw it like, that's not open to people like me who come from where I come from, we're not gonna make a film. Why would they don't let us do anything? We're just stuck, but I didn't feel I also, the more I got into it, I thought, well, you know, you can work hard. And I don't know, I just I definitely felt outsider II but not as much as what you were describing, you know, I mean, I but I think as a white male, you, you definitely have no, there's some doors you can potentially get to that. You know, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, both. It's closed off of arts always feels open. I mean, everyone feels that way.

Katie Cokinos 13:21
It's Yeah. Olympus. Are you kidding? me growing up in Beaumont, Texas, you know, you'd walk into the theater, sit down and watch, you know, reds. I mean, you just like, it's hard to process.

Richard Linklater 13:38
question though, Alex. To me. It was a slow formation of I went from feeling I was a writer to being a playwright. And then at age summer, when I was 20. I started watching movies seriously for the first time and very systematically. And I realized I was discovering like, oh, film, it's kind of the way my brain was working. And that was right that I remember that. Summer I watched return this to caucus seven, the john Sayles film, and it was there were these indie film, American indie films were happening. And I was watching a lot of foreign films. And it was a great time I was at these, you know, repertory theaters in Houston and college. You know, I was just seeing four films a day. So it started to dawn on me that Oh, yeah, you you know, maybe just by camera and you see enough indie films, but I'd studied it for several years and it's funny, I'll reference the same movie, Katie talked about last night, the Alamo by Eagle p&l which there's been a restoration of in the last few years you know, I showed that film in Paris recently and I showed it and public film around the world sometimes when they asked me to show some films from Texas. I'll show like tender mercies and last night Alamo to show like, some a variety of Texas films. But yeah, ego pinel got a $25,000 I think $30,000 NEA grant. He had made one feature before that I hadn't even seen at the time. But it was playing at the Houston Film Festival. I remember going to that screening and they showed it in 16 millimeter. And I was I was inspired just because it looked like a lot of other indie films I saw but he had done it in Houston, the town I happen to be working out of. It's just starting to feel closer.

Katie Cokinos 15:25
Yeah,

Richard Linklater 15:26
yes. But also like, oh, okay,

Katie Cokinos 15:28
At this point like closer.

Unknown Speaker 15:29
Yeah, cuz Yeah, we have Hollywood is a mythical Yeah. So far with the films from there. And they are the special movie star, hollywood people who make them and all we do is consume them, you know? So there's really two levels of falling in love with them. Cinema as a future filmmaker. There's films that just make you love cinema, and that is your Kubrick's and your you know, all those. It's like, Oh, my God, cinema is the greatest art form. Ever invent? You know, it's just like, it's everything. But it's intimidating in its essence. But don't you think kind of films that you see, and you go, Oh, that's a little closer to home. That's how my brain works. Maybe I could do that. Yeah, cuz

Alex Ferrari 16:15
you can't you can't watch 2001 and go, Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can do that. Like, that's not a conversation version of that. Yeah. Like it's hard. For Tarkovsky.

Katie Cokinos 16:26
It's very important, though. And this is, this is, um, it's important that we do have the gods sitting on Mount Olympus because it's something that you need to work towards. And I think, yeah, that's where the Film Society came in. So, so great. Well, I was interviewed recently from somebody from Texas Monthly asking me about the early days, the thumb society, or just working Film Society. And it just it hit me in this talk that, yeah, you're working on slacker. But you're also like, showing some of the greatest films ever made. And it's this nice, you know, um, what you want it where you're headed, where what you'd like to be, but but what you're dealing with, you know, with your own personal vision, your own, you know, what you want to do with cinema?

Alex Ferrari 17:27
Yes. I was talking to Katie OFF AIR a little while ago. And when I asked it kind of asked this question, she said that she hadn't seen anybody that, you know, no, no female names or anything like that. And for me, it was I'm a Latino filmmaker from Miami. So I didn't see any like, there was no Latino filmmakers. So for me, it was Robert, like he was the first one. Robert was the first one that I saw. And in 91, I was working at a video store in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and mariachi showed up and I went to the theater See it? And I was just like, and it was right next to a picnic. It was right next to a poster of hardboiled. I'll never forget, a hard boy, john woo with the with the baby and the shock, and I'm like, What is that? So that was a double feature that day. That was a fantastic feature. But it was the first time that I saw someone that was and that he came up with this book. And I studied all that kind of stuff. But it was the first time I was inspired to like, you know what? And I'm not I'm not, by the way by any stretch, alone, and that he inspired multiple filmmakers. But for me, specifically, as a Latino filmmaker, it was someone that really, really drew me I think we all need that we all need to see ourselves. Yeah, do it at that level. Because, you know, you can look at you know, there's a lot of Latino filmmakers out there, maybe who look at Guillermo del Toro. And they're like, Oh, that's great. But he's at a, at a whole other level. It's nice to see someone be able to make something like, Oh, I just need 30,000 bucks, and maybe I can make something.

Katie Cokinos 18:55
yeah.

Richard Linklater 18:56
Yeah. Well, it's inspiring on a couple levels. I mean, it's interesting with Robert, you know, he was like, a year or so too, after me, even though he's, he's younger. And I met him around that time, but really, with Robert all it's that last name, Rodriguez Roberts, a kid from San Antonio. He didn't really speak Spanish when he made that film, like so many of that generation. He picked it up, you know, but it's just like, yeah, anyone can do this. And then you see those female names. It's like, and then the black filmmaker, the Gordon Parks, you know, we all just, it's so funny. It's like politics. You know, just we were all look, there's identity and identification. And yeah,

Katie Cokinos 19:33
And yeah identification

Richard Linklater 19:35
feel open. I think that's what's so exciting about the world right now is tumultuous as it is. And I think barriers are really down for everybody. I mean, they're they've either come down or they're coming down. I don't think anybody feels that they're technically not. Well, it's still culturally they know it's difficult, but I just think it's an exciting time. When I don't know, I just think the access, is there. The I don't know. I think it's,

Alex Ferrari 20:04
I think

Katie Cokinos 20:06
I love the Cocteau quote, about film, he says it will only become an art form when it's as readily available as a piece of paper and a pen. You know, when people can you know, and, and, and on another level, which he didn't also speak, but was that the representation is there to that you feel like what my story is? Yeah. Telling and, and it's, you know, and I can do this I think it's only it's, it's, it's gonna Yeah, I think it's really exciting. I think you're right.

Richard Linklater 20:42
It's finally come about it was always a theoretical, you know, Francis koplow there's that little girl in Cincinnati is going to make a film. Well, exactly when he first started saying that's like how No one's going to give her 30 camera. But that thing from decades ago really has happened. You know, there's no barriers,

Katie Cokinos 21:01
but he also said it was the last vestiges of dictatorship. Don't making

Alex Ferrari 21:09
it interesting.

Katie Cokinos 21:12
He said that he said that while making the Apocalypse Now.

Alex Ferrari 21:15
He wasn't in a good headspace at that point. He wasn't in a real good headspace and Apocalypse Now.

Richard Linklater 21:20
Yeah, I hope.

Katie Cokinos 21:22
I don't have a problem with that. That was not a comment.

Richard Linklater 21:26
I just wish in the political sense with the rise of authoritarian thinking everywhere. If it was the last vestiges, I would sign up right now. about it. I'm worried about that spilling outside the arts. only accept? Exactly. Yes. Society not so much.

Alex Ferrari 21:44
Yeah. So um, so you both have made films of coming of age and of youth and, and youth kind of going, just kind of analyzing youth and also not only youth, but specifically with, with you, Rick, that you know, obviously over the passage of time, but I really want to kind of focus on youth because there are a lot of young filmmakers listening to this. And I've got some gray in my hair. Right here my beard. So I've been around the block a little bit, you guys have been as well. There's something that you could only see when you look back at your youth. Why is it and I'd love to hear your perspective. This. Why is it that youth always assumes that the world is there for them? That it is everything is owed to them? And it should have gotten here yesterday? Like, because I remember I remember what I was gumming up like I'm like why am I not in Hollywood already? Like I Why haven't they given me $20 million already? Why is that happening?

Katie Cokinos 22:39
Well, frontal lobe isn't fully formed in their 2425, is that

Alex Ferrari 22:49
that's just science.

Richard Linklater 22:52
Yeah, I tell these film class, you know, that I speak to I said, it's gonna take twice because you know, the world doesn't really reward your passion in the way that you put it out there. It's on its own time schedule, all you can do is try to outwork it, you know, but yeah, it's not, it's going to take twice as long. It's like building a house or something, it's going to take twice as long and cost twice as much. I said, it's gonna, it's gonna require more of you than you think you even have to give. But that's not a bad thing. You know, it's kind of like a long term relationship or something, you know, it's gonna, yeah, there's gonna be a lot of effort you're gonna put in you're not thinking about right now.

Katie Cokinos 23:35
So Alex, are you talking about the characters we created in boyhood, and I dream too much? Are you talking about

Alex Ferrari 23:43
youth general youth in general? Like because you guys have you guys have obviously studied and have delved in those kinds of characters a lot and explored youth and what it means to be young and, and the naivete of being young. And by the way, I wish I had some of my Navy tape back, because you become very jaded as you get older about because you just been around so you just know things. But really great art is done by I mean, slacker. El Mariachi clerks, mean a bunch of you know, young filmmakers who just did she's got to have it like they just went out and did it. Not thinking about how you're going to sell it, where you're going to get your money back. Who's how is this going to, you know, build my career. There's none of that thought. So there is some power in youth. But it's, it's hard to it's like a wild stallion. It's hard to kind of.

Richard Linklater 24:34
It's so interesting to be in the throes of that too. You're a little crazy. I remember the era that I was doing slacker. I mean, my God. I think I was technically crazy in a way you know, you have to be obsessive crazy. you're risking everything. And you're you're kind of at this pitch of and there's there's no guarantees. You're you're risking everything but you're so compelled to Do it and that's what the the arts, it should be doing scary things that you're just compelled to do. And without any thought of what the results will pay,

Katie Cokinos 25:11
you have, you have to bring yourself to the point where you cannot not write out a story. I mean, if going out to the lake and hanging out at the lake or going to the beach sounds so much nicer than sitting home alone and in your room, you know, cultivating and picking at your psyche and trying to create characters in a certain story. I mean, it, it has to be almost, it has to be almost not to sound hyperbolic or hyperbole. You know, it has to be as you breathe, I mean, it's got to be Air, Water shelter, and you must get this story out, or else on a certain level, it just doesn't really make any sense. And having said that, I also recommend short films. Do as many short films as you can, you know, just I, you know, I did? I did. I was inspired by music, I would just create little narratives to songs I did, you know, 32nd films, I did three minute films. I mean, my 10 minute film was like, I was making Berlin Alexander plot.

Alex Ferrari 26:36
Like, yeah,

Katie Cokinos 26:37
yeah, tell us for 10 minutes. And, you know, I just I think it really has to be something, it's got to be steps, I'm very much into steps, you know, you don't skip things, you you value where you're at, and you have to be okay with that, you know, you might go see, you know, so and so's biggest film that just came out. But when you come home, you got to bring it back down to what is it you want to say in the medium of film? And how to how to say it, you know, and I do. I do think short films for me, were always extremely liberating. We showed them in Austin. I mean, raheel had her Short Film Festival, and I would walk out there going, Oh my gosh, you know, I mean, with every, um, you know, Bob Fauci film or, or, you know, Kubrick film, there was a Stan brakhage film that made me feel just as happy because it was an artist, figuring it out, just figuring it out, you know, and just creating your own vision. But,

Alex Ferrari 27:47
but isn't that like the greatest kind of films when you're actually watching a film where you see the artist, figuring it out, like literally, as you're doing it? Like, they didn't really know what they were doing here. They're just kind of like, oh, here, they went over here. And that was, and it's not only with film you could do it with with writing with art and any kind of art in general,

Katie Cokinos 28:05
just figuring it out. I mean, I felt like all of them vendors, early films, he was figuring it out. And they're so beautiful and so spiritual. I mean, I go back to Allison the city kings of the road. I mean, you just, I don't know, that is the nature of cinema. You know, it's a feeling thing. It's not a thing.

Richard Linklater 28:30
For me that feeling to it's a question that the films are asking questions. Yes, they're seeking answers, but they don't have an answer. The absolute goal in making the film is the process of the question that they're trying to answer. It's not like, Okay, I'm gonna make this whole film to deliver you this answer. I already have their quests, you know, their visual quests, and you can feel that, you know, and I, I feel sorry for when that artist suddenly has answers, right? Things start to change a little didacticism and I hope that's not just with age, or, but that is kind of the great thing about youth because you're just talking about youth and cinema. Youth, by definition doesn't really have answers. It's being formed. And that's why I've come back to that over and over again. I mean, here recently, I've made some middle definitely some middle age films, you know, about that stage of life. But I think youth is always very unknown, evocative. We were all young ones. You know, we're all still attached to that young, unformed person who's just figuring out the world, you know, so I've done that a lot of just people searching for their own identities or, you know, figuring out how the world works, you know, that's kind of a, that's kind of a constant, you know,

Alex Ferrari 29:59
well Good,

Katie Cokinos 30:01
I'm sorry, no good. Well, I was just, you know, a quote that really literally hung above my computer while I was writing I dream too much was, you know, when you're at sea stay far from land, you know? Because, like you said, you know, when you're, you're young, it, you have all the, all these questions and, and, you know, and and looking back on this time where Dora is 20 years old graduating college, one life is over and another hasn't formed. I really was trying to do like, a love letter to that time saying, Just don't rush into anything, don't want to know everything just be in that ditch, be it be lost. as uncomfortable as it is. There really is so, so much there, you know, and I I'm really sad when I see kids you know, want want everything to be fixed. And done. You know, the minute they graduate, and they're done. They've got their job. They're all you know. Oh my god, you're just headed for a midlife crisis, you know?

Alex Ferrari 31:19
at 22 at 22 you're gonna have a midlife crisis.

Richard Linklater 31:23
yeah. You see it though all the time. At that age. We all were we just talking about we're all in patient. We think we want tangible Yang's world that because we're passionate about it should be giving us this and yeah, then know what you don't know. You know, I just try to encourage young people I said, it's all about the process. I mean, your whole 20s is going to be just build that foundation under you, you know, read every watch everything and work hard. And you know, but

Katie Cokinos 31:51
both of our characters, I think it's interesting, your character and boyhood and my character, and I drink too much, essentially both turned to the arts. I mean, we're left with him in college with a camera, and Dora is just got up and read a poem. Yeah, he wrote him. And to both of us it was the arts. What created this inner freedom? Yes, is extremely valuable. And I just, I, I, I really can't emphasize it. Yes,

Richard Linklater 32:25
you can make that leap with that I made that I think even as a teenager, I said, Well, I just really wanted my life to be full of literature, and music. And it wasn't even movies yet. It's just the arts thinking, what expression? So once you kind of jump on that path, everything else is just a practical consideration, like, how do I pay my rent? How do I raise money to make a movie that I've picked an expensive medium, I wish I could just write a novel, I could afford that. Or paint, even painting that requires supplies. And you know, that can be expensive to canvases. It feels it when you don't have anything.

Katie Cokinos 33:01
You know, the tension? Yeah, tension, you have to have that tension. And that's what

Richard Linklater 33:11
I've been talking about. lately. I've been talking to Ted class and young people I said, film really is and I made a short film. Katie, did you?

Alex Ferrari 33:20
Yeah, I saw it. I just saw it

Richard Linklater 33:23
Pompidou the 20 Minute.

Alex Ferrari 33:25
Yeah, yeah.

Richard Linklater 33:26
The one with that with the therapist.

Alex Ferrari 33:28
Yeah, I saw I just saw, I just

Richard Linklater 33:31
you saw it.

Alex Ferrari 33:32
I saw it. I watched it. It's amazing. It was I was just sitting there going. This is this is awesome. And I could just tell you here just kind of like it at least the way from what I saw. It's like another day at the office is calling another day at the office or something like it's got Yeah, any the other day the office and watching it. And first of all that conversation with the development execs or that whatever that I'm just sitting there going steaks, you got to lean into. All that stuff was great. But when you went in with the therapist and started talking to the therapist, I truly felt that you were working stuff out like that, at least from my point of view.

Richard Linklater 34:06
It was so interesting at this point in my life, like seriously, that film is like the most personal thing. Imagine what, Katie, I'll give you the assignment, like in the spring of the year before I had, oh, the Pompidou had gotten in touch with me and said, Oh, next Thanksgiving. Yeah. Well, I looked at the calendar. They said, Oh, we want to do a retrospective, a complete retrospective, all your films and everything, but we want to fly you out. I said, would you bring my family over? And I asked him, Well, I have twin daughters to go to Paris next Thanksgiving. They're like, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 34:39
You said that in a short. You said that in the show.

Richard Linklater 34:42
I know. That's what I'm getting. I made a choice in February or no, it was even earlier. It's like it's so far in the future. It'll be a little family vacation to Paris. Okay, I'll do it. Sure. That's kind of how you make your decisions at a certain point in life. And what They said, Oh, when he director does this, you have to make a short about where you are, where you are right now. And I saw some others. And they all did like little documentaries. So I put it off. It's like that term paper, I put it off, put it off, put it off. And then at the last minute, it's like, over that summer, I said, Well, I got to do, I started thinking about it. And I didn't do it. I actually wrote it. I wrote a script about where I really was at that moment, which was kind of in development hell on one project, and, you know, with feedback, that was annoying, my transcendentalist thing and then a Yeah, visit because I had kind of been diagnosed informally for at for ADHD, which once I really got into that it explained a lot of my own explain me to myself to some degree, right. You know, I think filmmaking really is like, being a director is kind of the, it's the territory for like, Okay, let's go on the spectrum, ADHD, Asperger's full blown OCD. You do well, those you can hang out in film, because it's that

Katie Cokinos 36:13
I have ADHD. I you, you are able to sit and focus, like I've ever met.

Richard Linklater 36:24
That's one of the ADHD things is an inch deep. But absolute focus on a very limited amount of things. Like,

Katie Cokinos 36:36
okay, yeah,

Richard Linklater 36:37
that's what I found out. Like I was, I was a really mediocre student, because my brain wasn't couldn't process. It was thinking so.

Katie Cokinos 36:45
Yeah.

Richard Linklater 36:46
But I did have my one gift. And that's what came out in his therapy session. So well, you know, pick a task. And so I really just wrote it like a short. So I'm actually I'm an actor. Yeah, a movie. It's all scripted. But it looks like kind of a documentary.

Alex Ferrari 37:02
But what I love about it, but what I love about it, you bought it love about is when you're talking to the studio execs. You're like feeding horses and doing stuff on the farm and you have your like your earbuds on. And I'm just like, that's just so brilliant. It's like the one line. I think it was just the one line you said that just it just rang so true. One line that you said that they said to like, Well, you know, if that thing is not in there, I think it was something like if that lines not in there if that part is not in there. Why? Why no one's gonna miss it not.

Richard Linklater 37:35
We wouldn't miss it.

Alex Ferrari 37:36
Yeah. And then you said, Well, we didn't make the movie. No one would miss it either. Which was just the best. Never

Katie Cokinos 37:42
It was like, Yes. Great.

Alex Ferrari 37:44
I'm so happy like that in the next meeting I have with studio. That's amazing.

Richard Linklater 37:53
I've been sitting on that line for a while. Where did you see that? Did you go on the

Alex Ferrari 37:57
Pompidou website? No, it's on YouTube.

Richard Linklater 37:59
It's on YouTube. okk. You can watch it. I said.

Katie Cokinos 38:04
I'm so excited. Oh, I

Alex Ferrari 38:05
have so much fun. Short,

Richard Linklater 38:07
I felt great. Because, you know, before I made a couple features, I made about 20 shorts. For when my first short got over. I made a 15 Minute. It was like a 17 minute epic. I was like, Oh my god, it took me six months. It was like, Oh, yeah, so yeah, it's a little bit sad. Cuz you're like your head's in the clouds with the greatest films ever made. But you do. Yeah. filmmaking absolutely necessitate you pull your head out of the clouds and out of your own head focus on your the reality in front of you. Like, okay, here's who I am. Here's what I got. How do I work from here? You know, that's all you can do. And people who can't do it are the ones whose brains are just too far too far ahead of themselves and not accepting and also accepting. It's a real craft, it takes a long time to kind of get you can have these flashes of you know, it just takes a long time for your skills to catch up with your ideas. Put it like that. Oh, that's

Alex Ferrari 39:11
that is. I could not have put it more perfectly. Yeah. Because when I when I walked onto onto into film school, I went to a film school in Orlando. And I walked onto a set and I had like, shots and things laid out because I had been studying Scorsese and Kubrick and I had these all these like, no cut takes and everything. I had no idea how to do any of this. None. None. What did you just know I didn't even understand it. But my ideas were so even to this day. I have ideas that cost lots and lots of money. I have a little bit better understanding of how to do it. But you really, when you're young, you just your ideas are so far ahead of your skill set. It's pretty fascinating.

Richard Linklater 39:52
Yeah, bring it bring it back to reality. That's, that's always the challenge. But you know, I admire the guys who you know can create this unreality and get it, you know, the Kubrick's or the the

Katie Cokinos 40:05
yeah to have he never made Napoleon

Richard Linklater 40:09
no, he sure didnt

Alex Ferrari 40:12
make the polling he didn't make. What is it the? The papers?

Richard Linklater 40:16
Yeah, so many people it's the frustrating thing. Remember Antonioni wrote that book, toward the, in the last, I guess, 15 years of his long life. It was just, he was called bowling alley on the Tiber. And it was all the films, he's never gonna make just like a page or these ideas. And, you know, I have a, I have a book of those myself, but it's important to probably not make every film that crosses your mind. But it's great. If the film that crossed your mind is still in your mind 10 years later, 20 years later, maybe you should pursue that.

Katie Cokinos 40:50
Well, that is, that is a good point. I mean, I do. I do give certain ideas a test of time. And still, if it's still kind of nine, then then you got to kind of start putting it down on paper and, you know, bringing it down

Richard Linklater 41:07
into but that's because there's different kinds of filmmakers, though. Yeah, someone like we mentioned Kubrick numerous times. He didn't do that. He, he was looking for a great narrative out in the world as he self, it's a different skill set to create a great character out of scratch, you know, yeah, a great story he talked about a great cinematic story is like a pop song. It's a really rare thing, and you only write or do like a pop hit. You know, it's really hard. So he was looking for that, that narrative that he probably own his own blank slate, not his skillset. That's not the his brain works. Yes, it thinks stories, that doesn't mean you're not a great, you know, so there's a kind of filmmaker who's working super close to home in a personal way, characters coming out of their own lives. A lot of people don't do that. They're, they're really in the form. Kubrick wanted to make a science fiction movie that didn't suck. You know about space drive. That's where he started. He started with genre and the form and he just knew he had something in him. So and that's, that's really valid. You know, so many great filmmakers work that direction. I think the indie world, by nature, we all work the other direction.

Katie Cokinos 42:27
You work more like Fassbender were FOSS bender wanted to make sure that he actually what he experienced actually did, he actually did experience the emotion. So then he would, you know, create from there.

Alex Ferrari 42:47
Now I wanted to I wanted to touch something about both of your films. You're from I drink too much and kind of a bunch of your films. The in your filmography Richard, I mean, Rick, the spiritual, the spiritual aspect of your projects, and your characters and the journeys that they make the spiritual, philosophical tube, I mean, obviously, the first scene and slacker with you spouting off philosophy, you pretty much set the tone for your career in so many ways, but the spiritual aspect of things. I love to see it because I see and this is just my interpretation of the art. I see it in both in both your work a spiritual undertone in it, is that something that you are placing in it purposefully or you kind of organically it just comes out of the characters, because there's definitely something there and majority of of your work, Rick and as well as yours, Katie

Richard Linklater 43:46
I was always kind of obsessed, or naturally I fell in with the what Schrader calls the transcendental, you know, style and film, The ozuna is a sawn dryer, and Mizoguchi you know, you Bergman tarkowski, you know, the people who had these kind of spiritual concerns, and he see it in in his, it's in a lot, you know, it shows up in American cinema. Plenty too. It's just usually, you know, it's around the edges of narratives. Often it's not the sole subject. But yeah, I think it just kind of, if you think film is kind of a spiritual art, on some level, it sounds kind of pretentious, but I don't know when you're talking about life and representing. I don't know the world and I think that's there, but I don't, I never had anything I really wanted to say. In that on that front. I really don't I don't have any practice or any thing. I think it's just what's on the mind of young people and how they communicate and what they're going through. Or maybe there's some magical thinking sometimes that, particularly at certain points in your life, you know, I feel I felt myself change, you know, like, I go back even 20 years, I wouldn't be making waking life today probably because I just think differently about certain things. I'm more skeptical. I'm more science based, I kind of had these ideas, or I think I used to be a little more into just the pure aesthetic of ideas, whether I mean, you see it a lot in slacker, the conspiracy thinking the, the kind of, I'm just kind of magical ideas, not that they're that necessarily, but just just alternative ways of thinking, let's say, that really just did me a lot. You know, I felt that that was very real in the world would fade was a certain kind of buzz of the world I was experiencing. And you could say it's kind of schizophrenic. It's kind of crazy. But I thought, well, that's the world. That's what I'm feeling. But I was a certain age. And I don't know, you kind of see it play out in the public arena, like, say, conspiracy, for instance. And that's taken on a real malevolent, I think super damaging where it was kind of fun in the 80s to talk about, oh, some of this stuff. I don't know, I just think when it's kind of the ideology now of a large percentage of our population. What I want now is like, well, I want verify, I want like us to be on the same page, I want there to be like, actual deeper thinking and factual, you know, but I don't think that affects the film so much, but it's just, I don't know, certain flights of fancy maybe not so much. Got it? How about you, Katie?

Katie Cokinos 46:46
Well, I think it um, I think it's sort of circles back to what we were talking about, about the question, you know, the filmmakers who are seeking questions, and to me that that's spiritual, you know, and, and Rick, you are very, you know, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and conditon Hamsun, you know, these were all writers that were very much alive to you and inspired you and they certainly, you know, come from a very spiritual place. And, you know, I, I, you know, I think of a film like you said, tender mercies, where there is, you know, Horton Foote was going after something, something else, but as per song says, keep the important stuff hidden. Yeah. And I, and I wonder, again, I wonder, you know, through that tension of, of telling us a story, but, but trying to connect it to something greater and something that, that we could all participate in, does sort of make it something a little bit more spiritual, you know, I mean, I,

Alex Ferrari 48:11
I mean, to me like to me boyhood like, it's a commentary on the human condition. I mean, there's no question and about the journey of dismissal this this boy going through life and also not only the parents as as you get older you like, I watched it when it first came out. And then now as as a father of older children, you just are like, Oh, I Whoo, I feel a different and that's what good are does it changes with you as you get older? Um, but there is, I mean, I guess, I guess anytime you're dealing with the human condition, there's, in many ways you touch you touch the spiritual in some, some way, some way somewhere, some way or another without being like, I'm not talking about religion or anything. Like I'm just talking about just the human condition.

Richard Linklater 48:56
I know I think we're all looking for connection that is what's makes cinema such a powerful medium, because you can really, it the spirit kind of permeates the images sometimes it does. If you're not too direct about it, you just you lay it out there and let we're all feeling Yeah, wanting to connect, you know, in a film like boyhood. I was kind of amazed. But on the other hand, I wasn't it's sort of what I was going for, but the way people did connect to it even all those years, I was thinking like, Am I not going I'm not going very big here. I'm making it about this minutia of life. Right not i'm not even doing the first kiss. I'm making it the little things I remember and just the smallest things, but I had a I had a great belief in the cumulative power of of that of time and what that would maybe just feel like as a human to experience watching it, you know, like to see life. Just move like that. That's what I thought. would be interesting. I didn't want to weigh it down with a lot of heaviness. I mean, it's plenty heavy, it's got a lot of detail that runs the gamut. But I just thought the the physical process, I did kind of think it would be this kind of moving thing. So it was amazing to me to get the feedback from people saying what they liked about it. And it was unique to me, it was very similar every time it's like, oh, my parents divorce or, you know, my kid went off to college, or I just went off to college, or, you know, it was always some detail from the film triggered so much from their own life. So I got to hear so many people's life stories, or, you know, what they connected, and I said, Oh, that's really beautiful, that people are just connecting with some aspect. But every film, you go for that the thing is with boy, there was an overabundance of it, because that's all there. I got back an overabundance. But I like a film, if I can just, if there's a couple of scenes that, take it to that level, that you just get a rush of feelings, you think maybe the whole movie moved up, was for that one moment, right now, look on someone's face, or just the contemplation of something. But it's gonna be different for you know, you just got to leave some room for it. But it's really just how you got to give the you got to give the power to the medium we're in it, you have to acknowledge the power of cinema and work with that you don't have to it carries so much itself, you have to work with,

Alex Ferrari 51:39
I think, and then also, Katie, in your film, I drink too much, the grandma character, and in so many characters in your films as well, Rick, I find that, you know, human beings as we are, we constantly are carrying our past with us. And it completely determines our future. We're unique as an animal species on this planet. We're the only ones that do that. I mean, there's not many dogs who are carrying around their past and, and really affecting their future so much. Why do you think we do that to our detriment? Like it is, we know consciously, it's hurting us. But yet we still kind of thrive in it. And I know a lot of characters in your, in your films do that? Because that's the human condition. I just love to hear your take on that. Well,

Unknown Speaker 52:22
I mean, it's funny, having just watched the Ken Burns Ernest Hemingway series that was gone. It reminded me how it Veera, I was really I created her in honor of, you know, Hadley, Hemingway, or Martha Gell. Horne, you know, one of the, you know, married to the great journalist, and she gets cast aside for a younger woman and they take their death and, um, you know, I completely forgot about that and how Veera holds on to it, it becomes like, her her reason of being and Dora kind of lands lands into this into this world, and they both figure it out. But, um, so you're asking, why, why

Alex Ferrari 53:15
we do it, why we do it as a as a hold on to things Yeah.

Katie Cokinos 53:21
Just sacred. Feel it takes you out of the ordinary,

Alex Ferrari 53:27
you know, but to our detriment, not like hold on to the past, like the good stuff. But like, we have things that like we hold on to that constantly are hurting us and hurting our forward motion, completely. I've done that in my life when an incident happens, and and you just hang on to it, and it stops you from going anywhere. Why?

Katie Cokinos 53:43
well I think you create a narrative or watching it with you, you have a trauma, then you form a narrative around it. And then, you know, you create, to live up to that narrative. That's who you are. And you create it until you, you know, sit down and write a script about it.

Richard Linklater 54:05
You know, it seems like we're in some therapy session. But yeah, that narrative is are you the hero overcoming great odds? Right? Think through all the muck that's been thrown at you? Are you the victim, who's held back by these traumatic, you know, it's like, you can, you know, we do have to some degree, you know, how we, where we put it, you know, in our compartments, you know, you can hide it away completely. You can deal with it, you can you know, my sister said watching boyhood is like, Oh, we went to therapy, you made a movie. Or your upbringing. It's like, Yeah, I was allergic thing to therapy. But I wanted to deal with some of this somehow. So again, the art solves all problems. It is there, but that's why

Yeah, what about religion? I said, you know, all the great things that are in the great holy books I said, you know, all that exists in the arts and science. You know, if you really focus on Arts and Science, all the questions, are there, so many answers are there and all the beautiful mystical feelings? Are there everything, it's been expressed throughout time, you know, there's, it's so much there, you know, if religion is not doing it for you, and you have this other thing, it's really tangible. So I just, I really do believe in the art as a sort of church, as it will provide all meaning. Yeah, myth and whatever you, whatever you're questing for, you know, it's, it's all there, you know, well, even person

Katie Cokinos 55:48
quotes, the liturgy, in his notes on cinematography. I mean, you know, the Greek Orthodox, and the liturgy on Sunday was supposed to do what art does. I mean, you get the whole operatic vision in front of you for an hour and a half. You're supposed to, you're supposed to walk out going, huh, I feel so much better. But now I think art is now you know, that taking over that.

Alex Ferrari 56:21
Oh, oh, no, he did. And he just busted it out. Not.

Katie Cokinos 56:25
Did you get a first edition?

Alex Ferrari 56:28
sign? You see, all right. Now you're just now you're just bragging. Now you're just bragging. Okay, look at that little person. Let her let her

Richard Linklater 56:45
gift. It was a gift someone gave him.

Katie Cokinos 56:48
That's awesome. That's

Richard Linklater 56:52
I had it right here on my shelf. I thought,

Katie Cokinos 56:54
thank Robert,

Alex Ferrari 56:55
that's amazing. That's I'll have to bust out my George Lucas autograph on my Akira Kurosawa as well. So

Katie Cokinos 57:04
the Anderson, he autographed by john Ford, the john Ford book he wrote,

Alex Ferrari 57:09
that's amazing. I don't know where it is the one thing one thing you said Wednesday

Richard Linklater 57:17
I'm sorry? No, I think of Lindsey quite a bit and I carried the torch for him Lindsay Anderson. You know my daughters have recently become very cinema literate just finally this lat the pandemic put us together in a theater once a day to watch a movie and there What are we watching tonight before I thought I lost them to you know YouTube ever all the other things that kids are distracted by but yeah, they finally kind of got cinema. And we watched so many movies but their favorite film and these are kids that just turned 16 was if and then the whole Mick Travis trilogy, going back and revisiting those was really profound, truly radical beautiful movies. I just admire him so much and we were lucky to have hung out with him.

Katie Cokinos 58:04
Yeah, this sporting life is not be shown enough. We watched that

Richard Linklater 58:09
and did you see Malcolm McDowell? No apologies his documentary about Malcolm McDowell did this one man show. It's just him on stage with slides and images. And it's really all about Lindsay his relation with Lindsay and his own career, but it's beautiful. You can get it on VUDU can rent it on VUDU just no apologies. Okay, Lynn, everyone dals tribute to Lindsay Anderson. It's It's beautiful. It's a beautiful light from to a mentor and a great artist from a guy whose life he affected profoundly, who loved him dearly and kind of saw the contradictions and frustrations Lindsay went through, personally, professionally, you know, it's great. It's a great portrait.

Alex Ferrari 58:57
That's wonderful. One thing that you said earlier, Rick, you said that it's going to take twice as long and you're going to work twice as hard than you think. Which is great, by the way. Great, great quote. Can you just just dig a little deeper into the patient's

Richard Linklater 59:14
and you and you're gonna there's one more thing if it was meant to be you're gonna love every minute of it, you know? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 59:21
that's a good that Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a great addition to that quote,

Richard Linklater 59:25
because you're you're doing what you love in this life. You're serving your cinematic you know, destiny I I look back at those years where I would just take the windows of black in my windows and edit around the clock for days and days just to finish that short that no one was ever gonna see. But I was like, what was driving me? Why was I wasn't a good boyfriend. I wasn't a good I didn't go do anything. People would ask me out for dinner. I'd like no, I'm there's a film I'm watching at 730 and then I'm that I just didn't have time. I was so obsessed and on a track, you know that and I look back at those are kind of like the greatest years ever because I was just, it was some pure about just doing exactly what you wanted to do with your time. And when it when you're fully dedicated to something like cinema, which is so multifaceted for me that meant, you know, starting a film society, it was booking films, but it was watching films it was seeing every film was editing, was writing film, you know, you can really dedicate your life to this, if you see it just especially outside just your own thing. You know, it's a bigger, cinemas much bigger than all of us, you know. So there's a lot to contribute to, oh, it really can be a life to call ever it gives you, whatever it gives you back. You know? Like, what you what you put in, you know, it's kind of like sports. You know, you get back what you put in? And

Katie Cokinos 1:01:01
I don't know, I think cinema is so heartbreaking. Oh, yeah. That incredibly heartbreaking.

Richard Linklater 1:01:09
but So is sports. Like,

Katie Cokinos 1:01:13
yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:01:14
you know, it's like I was just saying things that the athlete or the artist devotes their life to I think they're, by definition heartbreaking. No. I mean, you talk to these people who have successful, you would look at and go, Oh, that's a successful career. And you get a little closer. And there's a lot of heartbreak there. Well, yeah. What's the point of this? How you categorize it? You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:37
what I mean? It's what both of you, I'm sure, I mean, I know, Rick, you you've gone, you've obviously had some highs, but you've also had lows. And even to this day, you're still hustling to get your movies made. And that's the thing that filmmakers and young filmmakers think that like, Oh, it's Rick Linklater, he's, he's this and that. And as I talked to more and more filmmakers that are accomplished filmmakers. I've just completely understand that like, No, man, I still them hustling for the money. I'm still trying to get my projects made. Like it's not like they just oh, well, you want you got nominated for an Oscar. Well, here's how many how many $20 million checks do you want? Like, it doesn't work that way.

Richard Linklater 1:02:17
Really? It's amazing. Yeah. people when they think like, Oh, you have trouble. I was like, Well, I'm having trouble getting this particular thing. Maybe, maybe, maybe it's, I don't know, not fitting into the marketplace. But yeah, it's it's, there's no easy path. Although I do think certain friends of mine are certain people I know. They seem. I think they're pretty made, you know, they get to do whatever they want. But I look at him and go well, they kind of earn that, you know, in a way I haven't. So I'm like, Okay, I'm not complaining. You know, you're on the roster. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:56
look, look Scorsese, Scorsese still having trouble. I mean, Spielberg couldn't even get Lincoln financed. I mean, they still there is moments that, you know, they say, Oh, well,

Richard Linklater 1:03:06
he got it financed eventually, it's there. So fronted by the the initial fear that the world the world gives you. Like, didn't I remember when he took Schindler's List into universal? I guess it was, and the head of the studio, can't we just make a donation to some Holocaust thing. And that's the kind of thing Spielberg someone like Spielberg, you don't forget that. And that didn't mean it didn't happen. But it's that that initial the world gives you no matter what you say, it gives you a little stiff arm back,

Katie Cokinos 1:03:39
it would just

Richard Linklater 1:03:40
it meant or it's something but you know, you're not supposed to feel sorry for those people. You're not supposed to know. The world doesn't necessarily want to give you everything you want. You know,

Katie Cokinos 1:03:53
we'll leave even between Slacker coming out in 91 which I think this is 2021 Isn't this an anniversary? Is it 30?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:04
Yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:04:05
we're in but our Austin premier 30 year and our national will be Yeah, no. Yeah. Are this coming summer between

Katie Cokinos 1:04:16
between slacker. And then with my first film portrait of a girl is a young cat, which came out in 2000. I was I was hearing from independent, you know, distributors, and festivals, you know, will do you have any names attached to it? So this internet became indie would you know that it became commodified where you needed, you know, names to get it out there. So it's just this constant like flux of, you know, what can we sell, what can we sell?

Richard Linklater 1:04:54
That is the, the kind of the, the shadow side of what we were Kind of rhapsodizing about the Sundance era. Yeah, Andy is Renaissance. What went with that is commercial expectations. And this amped up industry, you know, minor league system with names attached for no money. Yeah. So, there there has always been that, you know, that there, there's kind of an inflation that ran through it all that kind of, you know, you could say, like, Miramax sort of ruined Miramax, and then like Fox Searchlight when they kind of landed on these formulas, and this is just pure business. But, you know, it was really kind of insidious. It's like how they made money. And they worked a formula. They would overspend. They over advertise overtake build up grosses. And then take their cut and then have it all stopped right at the point they're supposed to pay the filmmakers that you know, writing the point it was gonna achieve. They were taking their fee off the top. So I was like, wow, what, what did what a kind of business he awful formula that started working and then it wasn't, it wasn't enough to you know, slacker they gave us 100,000 advance it made 1.3 million at the box office. It was seen as successful. They made some money. It just it that was okay. It was in the sports term that you they were hitting singles and doubles. That's okay. But it became a much bigger thing. And everyone started sort of playing that game. So you know, you just got to deal with inflationary

Alex Ferrari 1:06:46
relation Eric tations. You know, and slacker, if slacker comes out today. It's it's drowned out do agree.

Richard Linklater 1:06:55
You know, part of me says, yes, you know, wouldn't get into the narrative competition at Sundance, it would definitely be a midnight or, or at best, you know, you think that But then I also go, Well, there's still room for that film that is so weirdly different. So find a path. So part of me the optimist in me has to believe that, you know, it would find a way. The way it did, then, you know, it was just a different film. It didn't have a story. There was so much it wasn't. But what what, but even it's a product of its time to you know, it's very much. I mean, in a way it spoke to a moment in time. Yeah, the agenda was cinematic. But it kind of not that it was a design of the film, but like anything that just kind of catches a zite guys through your pop culture way. That's just justice. And I think that's just been it's that's kind of the the upside of naive youth, like you don't know it. Right. You're, you're, you're surfing on some waves that are in the culture, that are youthful and different. And you know, so that's what music does. So well.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:20
Now, you guys worked on a project together, I dream too much, which was directed and written by by Katie. So Katie, can you tell us a little bit about that project? And then how did Rick get involved in that project?

Katie Cokinos 1:08:33
Yeah, um, I, let's see, I had done portrait of a girl as a young cat that came out in 2000. And then I grip

Alex Ferrari 1:08:42
right, by the way, great title. I mean, not as much as stuffing stuffing in the bikini title that we talked about earlier. I mean, not that good, but still good.

Katie Cokinos 1:08:50
Yeah, I do have to recommend to listeners out there that have a good title really helps you write every day. And something that you don't know what it is. Like, I really didn't know what a portrait of a girl is a young cat was while I wrote it. So something to write for. And the same with I dream too much. I didn't really know what that meant. So it really helped sitting down and creating these characters and creating a plot. To do I with I dream too much I really wanted to capture like I'd mentioned earlier that time, right after college. When you're done with college, and your life hasn't begun yet, and so you're you're you're moving away from one life, but but nothing's been created yet. So I always saw my character Dora is sort of in a ditch throughout the writing, just not not sure where where she was going. Her last name was what By the way, it also helps, because I thought about Orson Welles every time I sat down in good ways and bad ways. So yes, so she, she wants to travel, she wants to go to Brazil. She's just graduated and her mom wants her to go to law school, which that was me. graduating from college. My dad wanted me to go to law school. So it was a little personal. She door it takes off goes upstate New York, we shot in upstate New York over three weeks during one of the snowiest times ever February 2014. So I made my Dr. Zhivago movie too. And so yeah, she goes to live with her aunt Veera. And, and she, you know, through the story, she, by the end, she sort of decides what, definitely what she doesn't want to do, but maybe what you might want to do. And it I there were no, unlike portrait, which was very much influenced by Jacques de me. And Godard, like Viva savvy. I dream too much. I really didn't think about any other films. There weren't a lot of coming of age with female character films, I could really go to saw I looked at Jane Austen. So to a certain point, I realized I really wanted to write a story as if Jane Austen lived in 2014. So it very much draws upon the themes of the poor relation going to live with the wealthy relation, you know, it's a lot of walking with landscapes, and, and there's even a running thread throughout it, where she actually sort of daydreams that she's in a Jane Austen. He said, anyway, it was it was really fun it like I said, it's definitely like this love letter to that, that time in your life where things are open, you know, but there is there is a little bit of anxiety too.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
So and then Rick and Rick, you've never come out with me. You've never EP to film before you never executive producer from like that, or have you?

Richard Linklater 1:12:27
Some docs and things, but I don't think a narrative. Think I had no. So yeah. How

Alex Ferrari 1:12:34
did you get involved with the project?

Richard Linklater 1:12:35
Well, as I remember, Katie, like only a year or two before have a couple you had a different on the girl

Katie Cokinos 1:12:43
issues. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Richard Linklater 1:12:45
You were sort of going on that. And then you did a segue into this. Yeah. Okay. All your energy went there. So I thought, well, that's really interesting. And I just loved the script. I love what it is about, like, I love that territory. Obviously, I've done it from let's, you know, kind of a male point of view. Let's say I just think there's it's female, young female, that that thing is woefully underrepresented. So I thought, Oh, wow. And you're the one to do it. Because I know it was so alive with you. so personal. Yeah. You that law school, retention, and that parental and all that. I just thought it was beautiful. And I just loved your cats too. When you got eaten. Diane Ladd. They're just so perfect. I just thought you did a good job. So it was just fun to see you get that chance, you know, so I didn't really do anything. But I came and visited and I was there, you know?

Katie Cokinos 1:13:39
I mean? Yeah, having your your name attached, absolutely helped us navigate in

Richard Linklater 1:13:48
scale. And that's why I don't do it casually. You know, I wouldn't. Yeah, I only did it on something like truly believed. And it would it would Wow. Yeah. It's called with answer. You know, it wasn't.

Katie Cokinos 1:14:01
And, you know, Alex, when I was writing the script, early on, I kept thinking, Oh, Rick is really gonna like this story because it had a lot of, you know, a lot of ideas working out and, you know, talking and it had a, you know, I did have him in the back of my mind when I was, was writing it. And Diane was really fun to work with, I have to say when we first met her. In California, she lives out in Ohio. We had lunch, I was with my two producers, Jay and jack and we sit down for lunch and she all sudden starts telling me a story about working with Tennessee Williams and how she told and I told Tennessee, he needs to change this ending. And he did. And I thought oh my god. I nearly I knew Let me know like, why you know things coming up I like oh my god, she's telling Tennessee Williams out of right

Richard Linklater 1:15:10
into because if if she can get Tennessee Williams Zoo yeah what she can say yeah actors that are all that first meeting can you're setting a relationship town? You got to be careful.

Katie Cokinos 1:15:21
Oh my god was Yeah, that was very telling. I mean, you know, she had great. She had great stories about working, you know, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. You know, she told Scorsese that he needed another shot of Ellen Burstyn and in some sane and, you know, working with with them? You know, David Lynch on Wild at Heart and, you know, working on Chinatown, and yeah, she's so great to work with that. Yeah, that initial meeting, I mean, Tennessee Williams, not via Guana? Well, God,

Richard Linklater 1:16:03
I think what she's telling you, it's a good lesson is that writers, directors, you have a lot to learn and a lot to benefit from listening to the people who are physically manifesting your ideas via acting in your movie. I know. And I think a lot of them have run into younger directors who don't want to think oh, what I wrote a year ago is perfect. I don't want you messing up. And it's like, no, if you really want to know it's a collaboration, I think they're kind of telling them actually the best directors, listen, listen very closely to who they're working with in those those so much. that next level getting it to that. Yeah, that level comes from that collaboration. So she's just

Katie Cokinos 1:16:52
that is the best I mean, you know, if it's all in the script, why make the movie, you know, you have to have, you have to have that actor, the input, you have to take it to a whole nother level.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:03
And it's also the lightning that you're going to capture on set. Like there's that lightning in a bottle that you have to be prepared for.

Richard Linklater 1:17:11
Yeah, you gotta leave room for it. Yeah, you got it. It's your you're leaving, you know that 7% or that 10% or whatever. You know, I'm a big reverser. And I sometimes make actors nervous or going in that Oh, rehearsing. Is it going to be like acting exercises? Are they going to be laying down on the floor?

Alex Ferrari 1:17:31
Calling Lalala Lalalala

Richard Linklater 1:17:33
Lalalala said, Well, my rehearsals are actually my rewriting. I do it for me. I want to hear you say it. And I want to talk about it. I want to answer all your questions. I want to have new ideas, right? This is a process for me. I'm still discovering this movie. I don't I'm not 100% sure yet how I'm going to shoot it. You know, I'm not. I'm feeling my way through this.

Katie Cokinos 1:17:56
No, I think that's great. And I'm sort of did one of these as God is my witness. I will never make a movie where I don't get rehearsal, because I got no rehearsal time with my actors. And we were shooting five pages a day. And I just it it you know, I just would have loved just to have a few days just because I you know, I don't want to hear my writing back. I want them to and it was great. One time Danielle Brooks. You know, in a scene, she just came up to me. She's like, I just I don't get it. I don't buy it. It's you have to rewrite. It was like, great. So I had to rewrite this whole scene and it made it so much better. Yeah, that's, that's what I that's what I live for. Totally. Yeah, I

Richard Linklater 1:18:42
I try to do that weeks before production.

Katie Cokinos 1:18:46
Well, like I said, on my next film, I want a week of rehearsal.

Richard Linklater 1:18:55
Early on, someone told me it's like, for every week of rehearsal, you save a day of production. Yeah. That's a pretty rich formula. Because a day of production is expensive and a day of rehearsal cost very little, right? You get these bureaucrats who they just want to keep actors away until that necessary, you know, like, Oh, no, they're gonna come in and neat things for two three weeks. Like Yeah, hotel room. It's really expensive. Food, your budget? Yes. live here, and we're going to work and we're going to make a better movie.

Katie Cokinos 1:19:29
I'm so glad to hear you say this. I mean, I knew you. Yeah, I knew you. But I yeah, I don't

Richard Linklater 1:19:38
have the insecure director and I the my nightmare that I dream. Probably every six months I have this dream, where I'm honest, my own set, shooting and I'm meeting actors for the first time I owe them. I don't know who they are. And we're trying to worked together. And pretty soon I realized, Oh, I don't even know my own movie like, what's this trip? You know, I've just lost

Katie Cokinos 1:20:07
a half of you.

Richard Linklater 1:20:08
Yeah, watch it again recently, the new criterion beautiful,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:13
obviously, obviously.

Richard Linklater 1:20:15
But it is that kind of fear of just not being prepared. But for me, that's a comfortableness with the cast that I want them to be comfortable, and I want to be comfortable.

Katie Cokinos 1:20:28
So Rick, when you do get rehearsal, because I this, this film on my script I'm working on now is a is more of an ensemble, like a family ensemble piece. So when you do get rehearsal defined, you don't have to talk as much on the set to the actors. And being you don't have to, because they walk in, they're like, okay,

Richard Linklater 1:20:53
yeah, that scene we worked on. And ideally, if you can do it with you're in pre production, if you have the locations, you might have blocked it on the set before, right. So that's been in the morning, what crews waiting around figuring out, oh, let's then you walk through that door. I'm figuring out what the geography is. I've been in a position plenty where I'm in rehearsals, and I have to go to the set separately, but if you can get the actors there, yeah. And then kind of just feel, then they're that much more comfortable that they're like, oh, let's go so I'm a big, I'm a big rehearse on location.

Katie Cokinos 1:21:30
Yeah, the location Wow,

Richard Linklater 1:21:32
this whole other hang out with no, with no clock ticking, let's do it. Again, talk about that, and feel our way through, it's really process very organic, and it just makes everybody more relaxed, a little more confident.

Katie Cokinos 1:21:48
Yeah, that's the location changes everything to just like Antonia,

Richard Linklater 1:21:55
you have new ideas, you know, like, it's these words, you're hearing out loud for the first time via the person is gonna say it. And then these locations you found, let's say, in the last couple months, are replete. And you know, you're kind of putting those together. And that's really like, how you're going to shoot it how you're going to,

Katie Cokinos 1:22:12
yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:22:13
I like it just feeling your way through your own movie. And that's okay. And I wish people would respect that. You know, what they ask of directors is to answer questions, and I get it. You have to answer questions all day long. And as Truffaut says and Day for Night, sometimes I even have the right and I even but yeah, you know, they need and I learned early on to not be vague, because, you know, people don't want to hear that from the boss that Oh, I'm feeling my way through. Yeah. If you're managing a restaurant, like hey, like, Oh, we want people who are working for people they want answers they want so I learned early on, have those answers, but also have the right to change your mind you know, if you can be with them, locate the locations person asks you, hey, we're gonna do need to park the trucks here. You're gonna see there and you know, like, okay, we won't see out that window. So you can park there, you know, whatever.

Katie Cokinos 1:23:12
Yeah.

Richard Linklater 1:23:13
So the best of your ability answer their question, but then also say, in a few times in the production, you'll go out and hey, you know what I told you the other day, it's changed. don't respect it. Because you gave them 97 answers and three times change it? Well, who they really hate is the person who gave them zero answers. Yeah. Right. You know, you say, Hey, I'm gonna give you I'm process oriented things change. I'm looking for it to change a little. But if we were shooting today, we Yeah, you can park the trucks there in here. But yeah, so we plan on that, I will let you know the second that if when and if that changes. You gotta ficient but they have to you get you need everyone to buy into your process, you know, and there's a million it takes it took me a few films to get that by No, it was it's nothing but like, oh, here, you're working with a lot of professionals. Here's how we do it. Here's how we make a movie. It's like, well, that's not how I want to that's not going to make my movie. I'll accept, you know, the parameters of a schedule a budget, a call sheet, you know, overtime meal penalties. That's all bad enough. But don't tell me I can't rehearse because the actors are professionals and will come in and say their lot, you know, don't, don't tell me. Things like that, you know, I will then need to rehearse or whatever. So, guys,

Katie Cokinos 1:24:38
thank you. For night two is when that that guy comes up to him and is like, why aren't you doing a movie about pollution? And you Wait, why There's more sex, you know, you need more sex, more pollution, you know, pollution is something we need to deal with. And it's like, Yes, right. I mean, get those those questions will never go away, you know, on the set, why aren't you you know, and the Godfather is playing around the corner. And you know, it is it's like, like he says it's you get on a stage coach. Take off if you have no idea if you're going to make

Alex Ferrari 1:25:22
it and the bottom and the bottom. And the bottom line is everybody on set knows that they can make a better film than you. Everybody knows that they can make a better film.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:31
Certainly do your first like two or three films.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:34
Yeah. Afterwards, I hopefully have some sort of some sort of respect.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:39
I've enjoyed making it to elder statesman, you know, I the the upside of that is that, like those first three felt the natural thing and an employee situation is the emperor has no clothes, right? They have no idea what they're doing. They have no idea. They're totally faking it. Obviously, that was in my third film days. That was the vibe at the studio. Oh, this guy's a complete amateur. He has no idea what he's doing. And you know, he's doing it all wrong. And yeah, and I could be doing better. You know, that was all there that slowly started to get away. They might not like what I'm doing. But they couldn't say I didn't know what I was doing. Right. And I couldn't say because frankly, I didn't. There was a lot I didn't know. You leave yourself vulnerable. So at some point, I was happy to get there. Like, you can disagree or not like, but just don't tell me. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, right. I my joke is I when they ask some obvious question, like, Oh, yeah, I was like, Oh, this only seems like my first film.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:48
My 21st

Richard Linklater 1:26:52
might seem like my personal I didn't tell Shirley MacLaine that like, Well, do you have wardrobe? Like She challenged you? She challenges you know, yeah, you know what? in pre production like, surely, this isn't universal. What is an indie film? We don't have any money that it's not. We're eight weeks out. I don't have any started in the costume depart. We don't have, you know, I don't have EDID head coming over to costumes. Like don't, you know, there's the indie film, but just don't tell me I don't know what I'm doing. Because this is my, you know, 1314 or whatever, you know, so you just have to kind of give everybody, you know, their comfort zone or their assurance, oh, it's

Alex Ferrari 1:27:33
gonna be wasted, you know, cat as a director, there's so many skill sets that they don't tell you about, like the politics of a set. I like being the politics and, and human relationships. And just and it's a psychology of it all. Like, all they teach you is like, this is the lens that Kubrick used. Now, this is how Scorsese got that shot in Goodfellas. Yeah, here's the That's fantastic. That's, that's like, oh, but when you get on set, like that perfect example of Shirley MacLaine. Like when you when you run up against the wall, like, like, surely who, like worked with Hitchcock among a million other other people that you work with

Richard Linklater 1:28:08
everyone We've talked about

Alex Ferrari 1:28:09
this? Right, exactly. You just go? You, they don't teach you that. That's something you've learned on the job. Yeah.

Richard Linklater 1:28:17
I did that. Eight weeks before production. Thank God. So a hotel room in LA, you know, like, we got that done. So by the time we were on set, it's it's smooth. You know, everything's great. We're making the same movie. We had rehearsed. We had, you know, things were good, you know?

Katie Cokinos 1:28:35
Yeah. But she didn't have any respect for Vincent McNally. So I think you're in really good companies cared about was the color of the curtain.

Richard Linklater 1:28:48
Hal Ashby was, you know, I realized, Oh, yes, some people.

Katie Cokinos 1:28:52
Yeah, you're in good company.

Richard Linklater 1:28:53
Have good? Yeah.Wait,oh, for her cuz

Katie Cokinos 1:29:01
he was Wilder. Yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:29:04
he was like, Well, do you want this or this? I said, Well, I don't know. Surely Which one? Do you think you're there you go? I don't know. I said, You know, I said, I don't when they're conference, confronting me with something. My first thing I said, I don't know. I mean, everyone else in East Texas has said very carefully to what I say right after I say, I don't know. And I'm probably telling you what I think leaving the possibility that you might have an idea of your own that you want to bring in here and collaborate with, which is,

Alex Ferrari 1:29:37
which is scary for a certain generation of actors, like they just want to just like, tell us where to go. It happens. I've worked. I've worked with some actors like that to the older generation and very established and you work with them and they just, they have a way of doing things that they

Katie Cokinos 1:29:52
really want. daikon with Billy Wilder, like show exactly or am I thinking of Lubitsch were they Just exactly what they wanted. They would act it out.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:03
kind of imagine. I'd imagine Billy Wilder wasn't a very Lucy. No, no, I don't think, Billy.

Katie Cokinos 1:30:10
I'm thinking of Lubitsch, then that would just totally acted out. This is exactly what I want you to do and do it. It's like

Alex Ferrari 1:30:17
worse than a line reading. Yeah.

Katie Cokinos 1:30:21
For some actors, maybe that that works. See, I I have, I get as not shy as I am, I get really shy around actors. So that's, I need to work on that. That's my thing. I really, I mean, probably Eden and Diane. And Danielle would say that's not true. But

Alex Ferrari 1:30:40
yeah, they smell fear. They smell fear. They smell fear.

Katie Cokinos 1:30:44
Hmm. Yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:30:47
really like you. I thought you were given them a lot. I love the way you work with the actors and the vibe on your set. and stuff. But yeah, that is true. You said actors smell fear. But that's like, that's why I was always an acting class. And I was always kind of became an actor myself. Not that I ever wanted to be an actor. But I thought, Oh, I want to be able to relate, you know, at least, it's good to know enough to know how hard it is, oh, they're doing you know, so they so hard. So you have you come from a place of appreciation,

Alex Ferrari 1:31:23
empathy.

Richard Linklater 1:31:24
Acting is and, you know, empathy of how difficult it is. And you're just they sit, you're on their side? I know, there's a reason in sports. Most coaches, they always have played, they know. Yeah, and they know the situation you're in. So wouldn't it make sense for a director to have played the positions before or been in that game? You know, so it kind of makes sense. I tell students and be like, go go, go get in an acting class, get up in front of 20 people give a five minute or three minute log, show your ass of how you're not good, and live with it and get better and be embarrassed? And because that's what they're doing with for your camera. And they're, you know, you're asking a lot of people. Because actors, they can smell it, like, are you on my side? Or do I have to work around, you

Alex Ferrari 1:32:17
know, to protect myself to have to protect myself? Yeah,

Richard Linklater 1:32:20
you see, and it really calcifies careers. You see these actors who've, you know, they go through a long career and they they've been burned. You know, they believed in a director who told them to do something, they see the move, and that's stupid. Why do I look so dumb? Because I listened to that idiot telling me to, you know, and they don't like what they did. So they they're like, Okay, I'm not gonna work, what am I going to give, I only give so much of myself for all only, I'm not going to go outside. Don't tell me how to act, because I've already got all that. So you see, really good actors giving are not really finding any new notes in their careers. They're just being good over and over in the kind of the same way. But you know, the best actors, the ones who really push themselves, the ones we're still talking about, you know, though, we work with a first time director, and they're like, they're so confident actually, in their own abilities. They're like, telling, I mean, they know, the film's only going to be good if they're good. So they want to help you be good. They're not in opposition, you know, that lackey director who just you know, they really want to director to the best player would like the best coach. You know, that's the way you're gonna win.

Katie Cokinos 1:33:34
Right? Absolutely. What's heartbreaking, I just finished reading a biography on Clark Gable, and to hear his experience on the Misfits. And, you know, you get the set on time, he was ready to go. And everybody would just sort of trickle in, and it really killed him.

Richard Linklater 1:33:52
And there was Lake Maryland

Katie Cokinos 1:33:56
was late. I mean, he would just be like, What? What type of filmmaking is this? You know, and it's just, it's to end the book, you know, he's like, 60 years old, and this is you have to everything he's gone through. And it was, it was really interesting. I never, I never thought from that perspective, I guess, you know, an actor who was prepared, ready and was just getting, you know, it was just such an awful experience.

Richard Linklater 1:34:25
Well, actors, you do enough films, you're gonna have some really weird experiences based on for your work and within the circumstances they're in, right. I mean, it's like, Yeah, what's his quote, like a week or two before he died of a heart attack? He talked about misfits like marilyns that she likes to give that she gave me a heart. I thought she was gonna give me a heart attack. Well, she did maybe.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:50
So, so guys, this has been an amazing conversation. I have a few questions. I mean, I could, I could go on for another three hours, but um but I I'm gonna give you a few rapid, rapid fire questions that I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Richard Linklater 1:35:12
I would say don't focus on the business so much. Focus on your own. Getting good. You know, yeah, the business, the business will come. Yeah. Don't be too business to work. Don't be too business oriented. How about that? Think about just what you're doing and make it really good. And then the, or that? I don't know, is that dumb?

Alex Ferrari 1:35:33
No, no, that makes sense. Makes perfect sense

Richard Linklater 1:35:35
around when it does, but don't. You know, I see these grad students that are really worried about getting that first one. It's like, You're not even you're so far away from that. Perfect your own mechanism? How about before you're thinking about your career? Don't even think I would say don't think in career terms or business terms?

Katie Cokinos 1:35:53
Well, no, I mean, wasn't it Tarkovsky, who said, you know, this isn't a career was, yeah, this is calling. It's a calling. And if you look at it from I think perspective is very important. It's, it's, you know, it's it, you know, we don't need another director making action, you know, action hero, you know, whatever, movies, we need more personal visions. And I think that's what came out in that great book about Chinatown. You know, it was like, one of the last times that, you know, there was a personal vision that was brought to the screen. So that's my advice. And like, like we said earlier, short films, just keep figuring out what, what you want to say about? And, and, you know, if you don't have anything to say yet, then get a diary. Yeah. And write something, you know, to go to Africa and go on a safari like Hemingway or, you know, but put yourself out there, you know, feel. And so you'll have something I mean, for me for a long time, I just didn't have anything to say, you know, and that takes, you know, I did portrait, I wrote that when I was, I don't know, 30. And I didn't even really write it, it was just a bunch of loose scenes. And I, I was in the film, because I didn't even couldn't even tell somebody how to act and know what I was doing. So I do think we need to do a little nod to experimental filmmaking, like, truly, I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm gonna use the craft in that way. You know, I'm gonna, you know, maybe, and I shot over a year, you know, so yeah. It's

Richard Linklater 1:37:53
what I just thought of one thing, like, Don't even think of business, or career or anybody support until you've found your own voice. So you feel what you've and that can take a long time. Young people are born with more that than others. And that's a combination of your own, experience your own confidence, but you only get that confidence by doing you know, so again, you thinks it's all gonna be given to them, but you know, it's not, it's, you know, you're gonna have to find your own way, but save everybody some time. Amen, amen. Amen. Remember that I had a script I was trying to get done. I was like, I was like, Yeah, why would anyone Invest in me? I haven't done a, you know, I've done this one shitty, you know, like, yeah, you better just keep on your own path a little longer. You know, look, do something on your own again, before you think Put your foot out in the world and expect others to rally around you or your your film or your cause, you know, just do the do the personal work.

Katie Cokinos 1:39:04
So wonderful. Freedom. I mean, I remember when you wrote to Monte Hellman about what you wanted to do. And he almost he envied you. You know, he was like, I envy that, that you don't have any constraint. Yeah. And I remember Robert Altman saying the same thing when we brought him to Houston. You know, someone raised their hand, well, it's easy for you to get a movie made. What about me? And it's like, he's like, No, actually. It's not, you know, don't don't. Again, it's his perspective. You know, it's, it's, they know what I've done. You haven't done anything. And so is your oyster.

Richard Linklater 1:39:42
I know. He said, anyone in this room has a better chance of being financed in Hollywood than I do. Yeah. At that point.

Alex Ferrari 1:39:51
You're right.

Richard Linklater 1:39:53
That was the quote. Yeah. And it was like he was so right at that moment. At

Katie Cokinos 1:39:58
that moment. You just can't Any right? Really? I mean talk about boy that was that was so ahead of its time. Was it Tanner Ada? Yeah. Yeah. And and you're looking at you know, cinema God and and

Unknown Speaker 1:40:16
yeah. So why are him so much altman every passing year he get or I saw I hosted a screening of Brewster McCloud at the film side, we put it in the Texas film Hall of Fame last year. Yeah. Last Words Brewster McCloud. Yeah. And that film is so crazy and wonderful. And I just, you know, the respect for Altman, he he's perpetual

Katie Cokinos 1:40:42
and inners mind about him. He just felt like everything was just new and fresh. It's like, don't get

Richard Linklater 1:40:49
a jump a decade, where he's kicked out of Hollywood. Yeah. And he's making you know, five Jimmy Dean. Yeah, streamer. Watch secret honor again recently. That's really I mean, this guy was making films for 100 grand again. Yeah, nobody really stopped him. I just, I just admire that so much. Yeah, he's

Alex Ferrari 1:41:13
now. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? You both You both look the exact same way? Like the answers, like the answers over here. So

Katie Cokinos 1:41:31
I want to be honest, I feel like I have a I mean, I just made my first. I mean, I dream too much as my first feature film. So I feel like I haven't even I barely stepped up to play, you know, as far as filmmaking, because portrait was, you know, a 60 minute film. So it was kind of not considered feature. But to ask the question again, what

Alex Ferrari 1:41:58
is it that what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life in general,

Richard Linklater 1:42:12
you'll learn that lesson than

Katie Cokinos 1:42:15
I've never.

Alex Ferrari 1:42:17
For me, for me, it's always been, I always say the same thing, patience. That's for me, that's the lesson that I finally figured out, like, Okay, this, it's gonna take forever. Everything I want is going to take a while. Not as fast as I want it. That's my lesson. That's the one that I've learned.

Katie Cokinos 1:42:33
Yeah, is that thing, whatever you're doing, slow it down. You know, you know,

Richard Linklater 1:42:40
I was blessed in that area. I had some weird patients. That I mean, I was impatient internally, but I was patient externally, like, I always thought approach, I would always ask myself, well, where are you going to be a year from now? Or date? You know, I could sit there and build to the future. I keep them sitting down going like it 22 or 23. You know, like, oh, getting a camera and equipment. I was thinking like, Okay, well, good dog said it. Like, they don't let you make your first film to your 30. So I've got I got seven or eight years, I just kind of put the bar, I just have achievable goals. Like my goal was to do one feature film by the time I was 13. In fact, when I got there, I'd done to, you know, but it was like achievable goals that you can work really hard for and like, no, patience is definitely required. Don't get anywhere near film if you don't have the trait of deferred gratification.

Alex Ferrari 1:43:42
Yes. Very much, though. Well,

Richard Linklater 1:43:46
yeah, existant gratification. How about that not even deferred

Alex Ferrari 1:43:51
does not exist yet. Because you never, but I mean, to be a bit To be honest, Rick, I mean, you're you're you're like the king of the long play, as far as storytelling is concerned, from boyhood to the before trilogy. Like you definitely have delayed gratification.

Richard Linklater 1:44:07
Yeah, it turned out that way. But I didn't have that plan, of course. But I think that is a trait of being process oriented. Like I love every day that I'm making a movie so much. I really do. If I could just be I was quoted one time, saying, like, if I could just make movies and they never had to come out. I would be happy if I could just make them like the coming out part is the least that you

Katie Cokinos 1:44:31
think all filmmakers are what most filmmakers are like that.

Richard Linklater 1:44:36
I maybe, I don't know. Oh, really. It's, it's made for the marketplace. And it's

Katie Cokinos 1:44:47
always said like doing the Film Society we'd much rather show, you know, came running than one of one I don't work at all,

Richard Linklater 1:44:57
but rather talk about another film.

Katie Cokinos 1:44:58
Exactly. You know, as

Richard Linklater 1:45:04
Yeah, no, that's the downside of this modern era is so much personality of the people involved, you know, like directors in the old studio system. And, you know, it wasn't bait. No one knew what a director did. I grew up in an era, right? 60s 70s I didn't know who a director was. I mean, Hitchcock was the only one we knew. And I didn't know what he did. I just knew that guy was associated with those kind of scary movies or something.

Katie Cokinos 1:45:34
Well, I'm reading David Brown Lowe's book on the silent era parade passed by, and they really didn't know what a director was,

Alex Ferrari 1:45:45
they just sort of were making it up as they went along.

Richard Linklater 1:45:47
Yeah.

Katie Cokinos 1:45:49
Because it was such a craft, it still is a very crop oriented. Medium. And so. Yeah, um, is it the john cage, quote, everyone is in the best seat. I think that took me a long, long time, to realize isn't the bed seat. So I think it kind of, cuz I never wanted to be in bomont nature of creating art, or especially filmmaking is you you want to create a world, you know, that you latch on and you inhabit. So you're not really that happy where you are. But in order to create that, you have to sit down and be happy in the seat you're in. So I think that was something when that clicked in for me, I think I was finally able to create in, in film, because it's such take so long to make films, which I think is why I love people in the film business more than any other type of people, even the worst film people. And I remember in Austin, going to parties where there are a bunch of musicians, and no one wanted to talk. That's all we did was talk about what movies we saw talking about, you know,

Richard Linklater 1:47:26
yeah, films, the best atmosphere, because the people who are attracted to it, it's such an external, it's really intelligent, excited people about ideas and stories. You know, whether they read a magazine, I just love the innocence of like, Oh, I just read this great story. I think it makes a great movie. Yeah. And I'd like you like that. So like the odds of that magazine article, they read that they becoming a movie or like, point 0001. But it happens. And just that impulse, that beautiful impulse to like, fashion, this thing bigger and amazing. And to tell a story in film, and, you know, it attracts people who are optimistic, who believe, yeah, dream and want to be in this kind of parallel world. Yeah, like, every crew member, everybody there, they could be doing something else, you know, they could have taken their college degree or they could have, you know, but they're here because they love it. They love storytelling, they love being a part of this, you know, nomadic Gypsy, you know, cannot make a movie, that they just love that life and to be a part of the magic that is in the process. And you know, there's a certain confidence in the world that they want variety. They want different people coming in going, you know, I tell people, like, if you want a weekly check every two weeks and you want a two week vacation, you really, if you care about things like that you can't be in the film business. You have to Yeah, like the uncertainty the absolute lack of you know, anything that you can any

Alex Ferrari 1:49:09
security any security any, any,

Richard Linklater 1:49:12
any any day, the industry is going to take it away from me, you're going to go through personal ups and downs. Like Alex when he said like, oh, I've had highs and lows. Yeah, I think, but I never considered them lows. I considered them like, well, this is a this is where you find yourself. It's like, I wasn't like physically threatened or harmed. I was just like, Oh, this kind of sucks. But I would run into other filmmakers. And we'd look at each other and go, can you can you believe how bad it is? Like you can't get money for neither can I? And we're like, and then you go like, well, we got lucky by age. We lived through a generation where you could and then it turns around then it goes from being like the worst time to being the best time ever. And I think that's kind of where we are today. You know, like

Katie Cokinos 1:49:59
yeah, It's funny, I was watching Age of Innocence with my daughter.

Alex Ferrari 1:50:05
So beautiful Oh,

Richard Linklater 1:50:08
summer with my daughter. Like the 12th time I've seen that, but it was my greatest screening ever. That film skits more sublime and beautiful.

Katie Cokinos 1:50:18
Please, I always wanted to write a little short film about what Newland Archer does. After he turns away and doesn't go into the apartment. My daughter said, Oh, no, Mom, we want we need to do a series of madama lenskart. Pre coming to New York. I went to see her life in Europe.

Alex Ferrari 1:50:43
All that, you know, I'll see that

Katie Cokinos 1:50:44
for the first time. I was like, you know, well, of course. I think that's a great idea. But it's like that actually. Could that actually could be something. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:50:55
Got a call Sony, Rick. Let's call Sony. Let's get this. Let's get this project going.

Richard Linklater 1:51:00
They're going into films all the time now. Like, aren't they Clarice? They're doing a Silence of the Lambs show. There. You go into these iconic movies, you grab a character out and you make a show about them. So there we go.

Katie Cokinos 1:51:13
Let's get because I mean, the count was awful. Like, yeah, know how bad please don't let her go back. You know, the Secretary. It's like, Why? What happened? What happened?

Alex Ferrari 1:51:29
Sorry, so guys,

Katie Cokinos 1:51:30
incomprehensible education Really? Was that you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:51:35
so Alright, so this is the last question. And it's arguably the toughest question of the entire conversation. Oh, three of your favorite films of all time. For everyone not watching Rick's eyes just busted out of his

Katie Cokinos 1:51:52
tree

Richard Linklater 1:51:53
wants to ask this question I produced a list of 250 Films 300 of these at any moment could be in my top two the top 10 and I was asked

Alex Ferrari 1:52:04
so this so in this moment, ending on the day and how I'm feeling so today today how you're feeling this moment in time three of your family

Katie Cokinos 1:52:12
narrowly down and say the films that we showed in films in whatever

Richard Linklater 1:52:19
genre pika I don't know. You know, what you

Alex Ferrari 1:52:24
It's a tough

Richard Linklater 1:52:26
tough tough one out

Katie Cokinos 1:52:32
here it is the film like right now that after we're done with this that we had, we have no problem just sitting down and watching Okay, I just sit down and watch it right now. Three of them.

Richard Linklater 1:52:44
Yeah, you could Yeah, like they say the one that you flipping through the channels it's on you watch it from

Alex Ferrari 1:52:51
the Romo throw. You throw away the remote movie, okay.

Richard Linklater 1:52:56
At this very moment, but it's place I'm seeing so many this summer with my daughter's like watching films again. So I won't say any of those because I just saw but some of the ones I would like to see right this second. Wow. Um, Katie, you can jump in here while I think I'm over. I'm overdue a berry lendon screening. Oh, I

Alex Ferrari 1:53:21
just saw that a year ago. That's Oh,

Richard Linklater 1:53:24
I'm ready to watch Barry Lyndon again. With in mind this thing I'm working on. I'm ready to watch. I just think of certain directors.

Katie Cokinos 1:53:36
I'm gonna think of more spiritual films since we did talk about that.

Alex Ferrari 1:53:42
Let me be very, very Linden is very spirit. Any Kubrick film every Kubrick film is spiritual to me as I watched as I go to the church of Kubrick.

Richard Linklater 1:53:51
You know, I'm kind of in a new york new york mode to relationship.

Alex Ferrari 1:53:57
Wow, New York. We

Richard Linklater 1:53:59
talked about it here. You know, like, creative people get together and just the possibility that making that work or that's

Katie Cokinos 1:54:09
so sad.

Richard Linklater 1:54:13
Yeah. So Joyce the musical. I don't know. It's a it pulls something off. That's

Alex Ferrari 1:54:18
rare. Very rare.

Katie Cokinos 1:54:21
Well, in honor of my dad, then got his hard hat right back here. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:54:27
that's beautiful.

Katie Cokinos 1:54:28
I have to say, Gigi. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:54:32
yeah.

Katie Cokinos 1:54:33
It's a coming of age film beautifully. It's it's a jewel. It's everything comes together. It's it's really just, I could I Perfect, perfect film. Every it hits all the right notes it you know, it's so I can watch that anytime. There's gg gg

Richard Linklater 1:55:00
I'm Gigi.

Katie Cokinos 1:55:01
And

Alex Ferrari 1:55:05
I don't want I don't want this to turn into a painful thing so we can move on if you'd like.

Katie Cokinos 1:55:09
Me and Alexander I really abala Bergman's film. I sort of I break for Fanny and Alexander. It's really so beautiful. And

Alex Ferrari 1:55:22
yeah, I mean, honestly, the one the one of my favorite Kubrick films, his Eyes Wide Shut, and it gets for me I absolutely love Eyes Wide Shut. Okay.

Katie Cokinos 1:55:32
Do we have to do another podcast where all we talked about his Eyes Wide Shut? Yes. love that movie. And to me it was Madame Bovary meets Lost Highway

Alex Ferrari 1:55:45
Oh, so it's

Richard Linklater 1:55:46
yeah remark shut it's amazing you know another film that I've I've come around on completely and I think a lot of people I mean, I I didn't dislike it the way others seem to but watching the great trilogy this summer. my godfather three is actually Ah, so much.

Alex Ferrari 1:56:10
It's so much is that the new cut the news? Is that the new cut Are you agreeing with

Katie Cokinos 1:56:15
no. Okay would have been killed. She would have not been allowed to live first off Eli Wallach comes in way too late in the film for him to be any sort of any don't make that film without Robert Duvall.

Richard Linklater 1:56:36
Sorry, they would have had the ball but they they worked it around now. It's It's It's completely underrated. It's it's really a mature middle A i don't know i totally

Alex Ferrari 1:56:52
look at the bottom line. The bottom line is when you have when you're comparing it to godfather one and two you really can't you can't

Richard Linklater 1:56:58
you can't win that fight like Eyes Wide Shut. How do you compare it to the body of work? You know, it was kind of misunderstood as they I think I found the three is ascending. That I just marked my work.

Katie Cokinos 1:57:08
You think Michael, who kills afraid is gonna allow K to live with all that she knows. No. I have to go with David Thompson on this. He she would be dead. Dead. Yeah, let's

Richard Linklater 1:57:26
he could do that.

Katie Cokinos 1:57:27
Yes, he could. Listen. The third one. Let's just do the one we love. Come on. Yeah.

Richard Linklater 1:57:37
Oh yeah. The Vinton Minnelli boy I bet that's really I almost hesitate to show that to people post like, in this year, it was always pushing the boundaries in the me to era how poorly they treat women or at least fit up of women.

Katie Cokinos 1:57:54
You can do like what Turner Classic Movies is doing. Which is is talking about it reframing it. Yeah, I mean, like they did that with the searchers.

Alex Ferrari 1:58:05
I mean, how does how does blazing set how does? Yeah, how does Blazing Saddles come out today? Like? Well, I mean, seriously,

Richard Linklater 1:58:13
I mean, some game running is so beautiful. I do love it. It's still a perennial top lists, cuz you know Frank, Dean Shirley. And I haven't seen it just lately. I want to show it to my I'm almost scared to show it to my daughters. They won't like it.

Alex Ferrari 1:58:35
Well, listen, listen, I love that this has been like film film geeks united I mean it's fantastic that there's been so much debate about cinema and it's almost it's just been wonderful. Like being a flat well I think everyone listening is like a fly on the wall on a just on like just some filmmakers who just saw a movie or sitting in a Denny's somewhere at midnight after watching a movie that just talking about cinema essentially

Katie Cokinos 1:59:00
how much fun we get I hop

Alex Ferrari 1:59:04
yeah I have Denny's whatever that what was that whatever was open at the time. Whatever's near the theater that Yeah, you just but it has been an absolute absolute pleasure. Where can I where Can everybody see I dream too much?

Katie Cokinos 1:59:17
Oh, right. Okay. Yeah.

Richard Linklater 1:59:20
I'm glad it's finally getting out there.

Katie Cokinos 1:59:23
Yeah.

Richard Linklater 1:59:25
its own path has

Unknown Speaker 1:59:27
my producers told me to and of course I don't know. So it's I definitely Amazon and like

Alex Ferrari 1:59:36
Hulu to ban and those.

Katie Cokinos 1:59:43
Yeah, and all the all of the usual like your TV

Alex Ferrari 1:59:50
And I will put a link in the in the show notes. But guys, I really appreciate you taking the time. This has been an absolute joy. Just geeking out with you guys about sin. All right. Wait, listen, listen. Let's call a spade. Let's call a spade a spade. We're cinephiles. I'm sorry. So, but it's been absolutely wonderful. But thank you so much for your time guys. I truly appreciate it.

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BPS 254: Free Screenwriting Masterclass – The Anatomy of Story Genres with John Truby

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John Truby is one of the most respected and sought-after story consultants in the film industry, and his students have gone on to pen some of Hollywood’s most successful films, including Sleepless in Seattle, Scream, and Shrek. The Anatomy of Story is his long-awaited first book, and it shares all his secrets for writing a compelling script. Based on the lessons in his award-winning class, Great Screenwriting, The Anatomy of Story draws on a broad range of philosophy and mythology, offering fresh techniques and insightful anecdotes alongside Truby’s own unique approach to building an effective, multifaceted narrative.

His new book, Anatomy of Genres, is NOW Available!

A guide to understanding the major genres of the story world by the legendary writing teacher and author of The Anatomy of Story, John Truby.

Most people think genres are simply categories on Netflix or Amazon that provide a helpful guide to making entertainment choices. Most people are wrong. Genre stories aren’t just a small subset of the films, video games, TV shows, and books that people consume. They are the all-stars of the entertainment world, comprising the vast majority of popular stories worldwide. That’s why businesses―movie studios, production companies, video game studios, and publishing houses―buy and sell them. Writers who want to succeed professionally must write the stories these businesses want to buy. Simply put, the storytelling game is won by mastering the structure of genres.

The Anatomy of Genres: How Story Forms Explain the Way the World Works is the legendary writing teacher John Truby’s step-by-step guide to understanding and using the basic building blocks of the story world. He details the three ironclad rules of successful genre writing and analyzes more than a dozen major genres and the essential plot events, or “beats,” that define each of them. As he shows, the ability to combine these beats correctly separates stories that sell from those that don’t. Truby also reveals how a single story can combine elements of different genres and how the best writers use this technique to craft unforgettable stories that stand out from the crowd.

Just as Truby’s first book, The Anatomy of Story, changed the way writers develop stories, The Anatomy of Genres will enhance their quality and expand the impact they have on the world.

Enjoy my conversation with John Truby.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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John Truby 0:00
Hollywood is in the business of buying and selling genres. That's what they're actually buying. And therefore, if you're going to be a writer who sells to them, you've got to write a genre story that they want to buy. That's their product.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome back to the show returning champion, John Truby. How you doin John?

John Truby 0:32
Doing great, Alex, good to be with you again.

Alex Ferrari 0:35
Yeah, man, I listen. We're here to talk about your new book, anatomy of genres, how story forms explains the way the world works. And as we were talking before we started, this is the most insane book I have ever seen in the screenwriting space there is, or in the story, space period, it applies to all sorts of story, which is very smart on your part, sir. But it is, it's 700 Plus pages. And it is a manual that I've never seen. It doesn't exist. This thing is comprehensive. Of a book about story, story forms genre, there's just nothing else in the world that's ever been written like this in my in such. I mean, it's insane. And it took you you told me six years to write this thing.

John Truby 1:29
Six years into writing. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:31
Oh, God. God bless you, brother. I mean, I mean, they got you did because God knows. It's a lot. I wrote ever 50,000 words, and I was exhausted.

John Truby 1:41
Yeah, I it was, it was exhausting. And I didn't know if I could do it, because it was such a marathon. But you know, what, what needed to be covered? what needed to be said about these different story forums, because they're so massive and so important to writers, whether it's screenwriters, novel writers, whatever, is so huge, that that that was kind of what kept me going was to know that this is going to provide help to writers that they have never had, and that especially in the current worldwide story, situation, worldwide story world. It is absolutely essential.

Alex Ferrari 2:24
Yeah, without question. So my, my first question is you in your book, the very beginning, you say world, you look at the world as story, can you kind of dive into that? A little bit of what you mean by that?

John Truby 2:36
Yeah, it's, it's, it's super important to start with that. Because, you know, we always think of the world tells stories. And we tend to think, well, this is you know, it's for entertainment. And that's great. So on, but you know, it's not a big deal. No, the world is story. The way that we understand the world is always done through story, including the way we understand ourselves. Because it's one of the things I talk about in the detective chapter. Your, your image of yourself who you are, is a story that you began telling from earliest consciousness. And it is a story that you play out every day. But so story is how we understand the world and how it how the world is organized for us. And it's done through characters. And you know, we are the hero. We have opponents out there antagonists out there that we have to deal with obstacles we have to overcome, we have goals that we want to succeed in our life, and so on. So that's how we work through the world. And what this book does is not only talk about how story shapes our understanding of the world, but how these different types of stories give us a different world view of how the world works. So each one is its own separate model of how the world works, and the genres that you write, and the genres that you'd like to watch and read, really mirror your view of how the world works. And it's something that is super important in the book that to get into each genre expresses a life philosophy, and that's why they're so powerful. That's why they're so popular with audiences is not just that they're a sequence of plot beats, that that are really compressed to tell a great story. No, each genre has its own view for how to live successfully in this world. And so, the the stories that you go back to let's say you love action stories, it's because the philosophy of life that an action story tells is something that that generates that that appeals to your sense of how you want to live in the world how you try it'll live in the world. And it it reaffirms your values by which you live. And so and so you know, for example, you you have people, you know who go who read tons of romance novels, love romantic comedies and so on, they go back to them again. And again, they're not going back to those stories because they are looking to be surprised by the plot beats, they know the plot beats, they love the plot beats, they love to see it played out, but there's no surprise there know what's playing out, what they are really going back to again, and again is to get that reaffirmation of the values and the life philosophy that Romans gives us.

Alex Ferrari 5:44
So it's, that's why revenge films are like montcada. Monte Cristo is so you know, well, people love revenge stories, because it's a form of justice, you're wrong doing something that was you were wrong than many of us, if not most, if not all of us feel wronged at certain points, and we'd love to get what we consider justice in our life. So that's just a small example of what you're talking about.

John Truby 6:07
And in fact, the crime chapter is all about justice is all about that's the larger thematic issue that it's dealing with. And what what each of these genres do is they come up with a dramatic sequence of plot events, to express that deeper thematic view.

Alex Ferrari 6:29
So you mentioned something that was very powerful. And before we get into the nuts and bolts of story, but when you said that we have been telling ourselves and living our own stories, since conception is basically since we came out into the world, and that story is told to us by our parents, our community, our religion, all of that is, is kind of imprinted is downloaded into a Matrix style, because we come in pretty much a blank hard drive, if you will. Yeah. And that's brought in, and then a lot of the limiting beliefs that humanity has about themselves, is stories, we tell each other like, oh, I can, I can never make more than $100,000 a year, I can never lose that weight. These are stories that we tell ourselves. Right?

John Truby 7:12
Right. Absolutely. Right. And and those, those stories are miniature ideologies. They are many, they're not just different thoughts. No, they're a pattern, a sequence of thoughts that hang together, that we formed very early on. And therefore changing those is very difficult, because we keep going back to playing out that same script, that that same story sequence, that maybe it worked, when we first created that story. But typically, when we get older, we don't need that story. And that story is not actually justified by our life. But we are so hung up on that story that we made, what I talk about in in the anatomy of story book, in terms of stuff that I call the ghost, is that it's it's so deeply embedded from very early on, that's a very hard story for us to get beyond and one of the, one of the marks of a good story is to get you as the audience's the reader to see the ideology, ideological story in your own mind in your own life, and say, Hey, wait a minute. There's a lot of flaws in that you can do better than that. And, and, and by showing us characters going through a similar life situation that we are doing, basically creating an avatar for us. We then are able to say, Hey, maybe I can have a self revelation of my own, and say, Wait a minute, I'm making that mistake, too. And it's really holding me back.

Alex Ferrari 8:50
And I mean, when you look at I mean, I don't know how many times you've read a story or watched a movie, and afterwards you were a changed person, especially when you're younger when you watch certain movies. You watch the godfather. Yeah. And I mean, it's all about family. It's not about the mob, it's about family, you watch Goodfellas in the same genre, you might want to go to Shawshank you know those kinds of films, move you and change you the matrix, right changed people's perception about life and their worldview and their ideologies. And and it's such a powerful tool. It's honestly a very powerful responsibility as storytellers of what we put out into the world because it does. It does affect the world in general.

John Truby 9:37
Yeah. And interestingly enough, all of the films that you just mentioned, I talked about heavily in the book because they are so fundamental, not just as a story that was meaningful to us. But the stories that actually formed that particular genre. You tell him that, you know, the godfather in Goodfellas, they're right up there in the top five gangster stories ever made. And they when we think of the ideology, the life philosophy that's embedded in the gangster story. A lot of it is coming through those particular films.

Alex Ferrari 10:18
And those films. They, like I said, they change society, there are films that that just change the way you look at life. And again, in there's novels upon novels that changed the way I mean, when when Frankenstein showed up, it completely changed the way I mean, when Christmas carol showed up. It completely changed. You know, when Shakespeare showed up, it completely changed the perspective of story. And is it because when we when we were watching or reading story, or listening to a story and around the campfire, when we identify ourselves, we put ourselves in that story. We're like, hey, you know what? I feel like I was wrongly imprisoned in my marriage, or in this partnership with this business person, a businessman that I'm with. And that's why I connect so heavily to Shawshank, let's say, or I feel wronged. And that's why I just love Count of Monte Cristo, and I want revenge. And I want to feel that getting getting justice, is that why these stories move society in so many ways?

John Truby 11:22
Well, there's a couple of things going on. One is the impact that they have on the individual viewer, individual reader in terms of touching something, either an experience that they've had from early on, or wrong that they've experienced, but remember it is it at that level, it's even below genre, because we're talking about, we're taking the basic setup of any story, including our own, which is on the hero, but I've got these opponents who are preventing me from getting the goal in my life. And so when when I am prevented or even wronged, this is so deeply felt, because you're talking about your entire life passage. And if it's a big enough, wrong, it can destroy you for your whole life. So when you see something like Count of Monte Cristo, which is probably the greatest revenge story ever done, and it's so beautifully done, and it's got all fantastical elements with the Chateau de F, and all these kinds of things, and you know, it's still fantastic. What he's got, and he's got these, but what it's interesting, that writer was probably the apex of plot in the history of story. So it's interesting. You mentioned that particular one, this guy was the master of plot, do and do loss. Exactly. And and what genres do is, they are plot systems. So it's not just that it's about revenge. It's about the way he shaped this revenge story. wronged by three people. He goes to prison this and fantastical prison that he escaped from it. And then he takes revenge, not on one, not on two on three guys. And it's so beautifully plotted out. That's what in this is really the source of why I wrote the book was it was a deep need, and pain that I saw. And I've seen for the last 10 years that writers have it, especially in screenwriting, but also a novel and television, right, which is the great distinction that between the top 1% of writers, the top 1% of professional writers, and everybody else is the ability to plot. That's it. You know, character development, super important dialogue, obviously, very important, so and so forth. But what distinguishes those who really succeed, and in screenwriting, we're talking about a very small percentage to do. So what is it? What is it, I had to put my finger on it, but what it is, is the ability to plot and unfortunately, for decades, the tools that writers have had in screenwriting, to be able to come up with a plot that would work at the top 1%. Were just, they just weren't there. I mean, 3x structure, save the cat these kinds of things. They're fine when you're first starting out. But if you're talking about for example, in 3x structures, two or three major plot, plot beats in the story, that's not going to get you close to a plot that's complex enough to work at that high professional level. Just to give you an example, a successful film will have anywhere from 10 to 12. Major plot beats not two to 310 to 12. And in fact, the last 20 years one of the biggest trends in screenwriting and in film industry in general, is the densification of plot. And there was there droop, demanding more plot per two hours, because that's all you got. Right? Unless you're James Cameron, you just got two hours, right? So how do you get more plot, what you do is a, you have to use genres. And two, you have to mix genres. And this is something I talked about in the opening chapter, when I talk about the three unwritten rules of the entertainment business today. One is, it's a genre world. Hollywood is in the business of buying and selling genres. That's what they're actually buying. And therefore, if you're going to be a writer who sells to them, you've got to write a genre story that they want to buy. That's their product. Right? The second rule is, you have to mix two to four genres. It used to be 30 years ago, you could write a single genre story, no more, especially since the initial the original Star Wars came out. It's all about combining genres. And why because you give them you give them two to three times the number of plot beats. That's the real reason. And so you got this super dense plot, because you're bouncing back and forth, for between the 15 to 20 plot beats of each of those genres. So you've got upwards of 60 plot beats that you're working on, in a script, which, which, in a mixed genre scrip, so this was what I was trying to see was, Okay, if that's the world we're dealing with, as writers, what is the solution, the solution is, you got to write a book that lays out all the plot beats for for the 14 major genres, from which 99% 99.9% of all stories in the world come from either singly or more likely, in a mixture of two to four. And so that's where I started laying out. Each chapter, lays out the plot, first of all lays out the plot beats, the unique plot beats of that particular genre, because that's your first job. As a writer, you got to beat those beats, you've got to hit those beats, if you don't hit all the beats of that form. People who love that form will get really pissed off. Right, you so that's your first job. But that's just job one. Then what I talked about, which, with the third unwritten rule of Hollywood, is that if you just hit the beats of that form, that's going to get you in the ballpark. But how do you separate yourself from everybody else writing that job? Right? Because I always tell writers, you're not competing against everybody in Hollywood writing a script, you're competing against the people writing in your genre, you got to write it better than they do. And how do you write it better than they do? You have to transcend the genre.

Alex Ferrari 18:10
So in you know, I remember growing up in the 70s and 80s, where plot points and stories were simpler. And if you go back in the 40s, and 50s. I mean, they're super, super simple. were things that would get what you would get away with, then you just couldn't get away with in the 70s and 80s. And now that we are bombarded with so much story so often, from so many different mediums, whether it's video games, or store plays, or screenplay movies, or novels, or you know, social media stories, like there's just so many different kinds of stories, we've also seen, like my generation is probably the first generation because I'm the video store generation to, to watch movies again and again in the cable generation. And there's just so much content that we grew up on that we've seen plots. Now I see my daughters who are young, and they call out plot points in movies, they're like, that's the bad guy. Oh, he's just gonna and I hear and I'm like, my god, they're so trained already. Right? That the writers of today can't write the script of the 70s or 80s or 90s, early 2000s Even Oh, it has to be more complex it has to do and I love the IDF and if we can go through the top 10 or 20 movies of all time every single one of them combined genre Yes. Every every there's not one that's a straight story. It's a love story to tell the story action store and they're all called together and anytime you make genre, like a horror comedy, with maybe a love story tapped in there. That's that's the thing and people always ask like, Why did avatar become the biggest movie of all time? It's such a big like a lot of people Call it a basic plot we've all seen it's like Dances with Wolves meets FernGully meets Pocahontas. Yeah. But not only because of the spectacle, but he through how many genres are in that movie,

John Truby 20:11
You come over to just a perfect example. Because avatar, and this is what Cameron does repeatedly combined these genres, myth, action, love, you don't get three better genres for worldwide success than those three. And he knows those forms form backward. And he knows how to combine the forms. And this is one of the difficulties that writers have. Many writers understand that they can't write a single genre story anymore. So they say, okay, yeah, I gotta mix genres. But saying it and doing it are two very different things. It's very complex, because the the genre beats in one genre may cancel out the genre beats in another genre. Because they're telling, they're telling that the overall story, what makes a great story, they're telling it in different ways, with different beats and different sequences. So mixing them is very tricky. A guy like Cameron with avatar, not only was able to combine those three very popular forms, in an almost perfect seamless way. But in this is the other part of what the book is all about. It was that. And this is something that that almost no writers get now, which is that that top 1% is not just writing complex plots, with mixed genre stories, they are expressing advanced theme through that complex plot. And that's why I want to talk about in the second half of the chapter after I've gone through the beats of that particular form. I've talked about what is the theme, what is the life philosophy that this genre is expressing. And if you can tap into that, and do it in a new way that we haven't seen before, then the audience is going to just go through the roof. And that's what that's what camera is able to do with avatar. And something I talk about in the myth chapter of the book. I talk extensively about avatar, I talk about it as the first of the new female myth story. Female myth is a story form that has been gone for 3000 years in Western culture. And just in the last 15 years, it's come back and it's come back with a vengeance, I believe it's going to be one of the major forms in worldwide storytelling in every medium for the next few decades and beyond. Why, and and it's because the female myth, you know, with things like hero's journey and so on, we hear about Joseph Campbell, we hear about this mono myth that supposedly all the all stories are this mono myth. Wrong. I have a bit of a major disagreement with Joseph Campbell. And of course, I, I presume to the root because he's one of the greats. But I believe this mono myth idea is really wrong. It's based on the fact that the stories that he's talking about, were all male myth stories, because it says the female myth was wiped out 3000 years ago, when Hunter societies basically male myth, societies wiped out gatherer societies, which is basically agriculture societies. And so what happened was, you have this, the this male myth that that Campbell is talking about, is really a male warrior myth. And those beats, yes, those are the beats of a male warrior story. But those are not the only kind of myths stories that are out there. And with avatar, what happened was, you see not only the overall movement of that story is not only from a technological society, to a nature society. More importantly, it is the movement over the over that script and over that film, from a male myth story to a female myth story. And the way each handles the basic beats of myth. And the basic beats of story are radically different. And he was able to see this and lock into it. And then you had things like gravity inside out. These are female mysteries with massive worldwide appeal. And if you break them down, you see that they're telling the story to myth, form, and overall story structure in a fundamentally different way than male myths. maleness stories are told, and what they're very hard to do. They're very and I talk about exactly how you do that how you write the female ms story in that chapter, but is going to be huge on talent. I keep telling people, this thing is huge. And if you want to express the theme of the female myth, which is, in my opinion, a superior theme than the male myth theme, you need to learn how to tell this story because it is going to be huge.

Alex Ferrari 25:30
And on top of that with other other genres Heath Austin, there were obviously action and sci fi and, and a few other dazzles that hit in the notes. As you were talking, I was thinking back through his filmography. And you're absolutely right, every single James Cameron movie for other than Parana to the spawning. But from Terminator on, it's all he combines those three main things. But there's always a love story. There's always a love story in his movies. And there's always action. And there's always myth. There's always cultural, you know, societal conversations like in Titanic, and in the abyss. He has big themes. He deals in very big themes where, you know, you've got corporate, you know, in Aliens is all about the corporation, and the Abyss it was all about the corporation and the humanity of connecting with aliens underneath the water. And in Aliens, it was connected with that. And I remember I think I watched I think it was his masterclass, which, if you haven't seen, it's just wonderful to watch. But he talked about aliens. And he goes, if I would have made a movie about a bunch of Marines fighting a bunch of space roaches, it wouldn't have worked. This movie is about two mothers protecting their young. Yeah. And I was like, Holy crap. I can't believe I never saw that before. But he's, he broke it down. It was pretty fascinating to see.

John Truby 27:04
Yeah, and this is this is what I try to get across to readers in the book, which is that the many of them will understand the importance of knowing what these plot beats are for each genre. What what but for decades, there's been this idea that if you want to, you know, there's a famous line, if you want to send a message, send it Western Union. In other words, you know, don't get heavy handed with the theme. And there's a certain truth to that you don't want to be heavy handed with. But that doesn't mean that would you go to the opposite extreme. And you say, Well, I'm not going to get into theme at all, no, the real key to success is having that complex plot that gives the reader and the viewer, this really exciting, twisty kind of story that they're not expecting, but also a deeper theme with which is expressed under the surface, through the plot beats through the genre beats, that tells a larger theme that the audience can hook into without being preached to. This is the key thing, if you can combine. And that's why Why saying the book genres are plot systems, they are also theme systems. The theme systems are the part that most people do not understand and therefore are not tapping into. And if you as the writer can tap into both of those plots system and theme system, there's nobody's going to touch you, you are not going to be a whole different league.

Alex Ferrari 28:32
Right! And if you look like I mean, and I can will bring up Shawshank probably a few more times in this conversation. But when you look at Shawshank, I mean, the spiritual undertones of that film, which is not preachy, in the least they never mentioned it they never say it. It's but I mean, literally him coming out. Sorry, spoiler alert. If you haven't seen Shawshank guys, you could fast forward for about a minute or two.

John Truby 28:57
Who in the audience is going to have not seen Josh?

Alex Ferrari 29:00
I mean, if you haven't heard this fast forward about a minute, guys, but when he comes out at the end, and literally is spit out of crap into a basically a resurrection scene, and he's resurrected. There's so many themes, so many things that that is touching upon, that Frank Darabont did and see the Kingdom I'm not sure how much about Steven or was Frank, but it was so beautifully and artistically done. That that is why it connects I think at such a high level with so many people. And when I ask people about why do you like that movie? They can't put their finger on it. There's just something about that story that just makes you connect to it. Is that fair?

John Truby 29:44
I think it's one of I always thought this is one of the hardest movies to try to explain to people why it was so popular. Because on the surface it looks it's a prison escape movie.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
How simple it's basic. Right?

John Truby 29:59
You know? The guy is gonna get out of prison. Okay, so, you know, it's like, what I made one of the biggest mistakes in my, in my life. What before Titanic came out, I said, this isn't going to be successful or I know what's gonna happen? You know? It's not

Alex Ferrari 30:15
You're not the only one, I said the exact same thing. Like we all know the boat goes down, like why am I watching this

John Truby 30:20
Right! Not only do we know what's gonna happen, it's really depressing. So but you know, that shows you what I know but but the point is in Shawshank. It's not going to be up, although how you get from point A to point B, the plotting in that, and that's one of the reasons that I am such a huge fan of it is that with plotting within a confines like that is much more difficult. And, and in what he does plot wise. And then, as you just said, tying the theme, which is also expressed through his friendship. Tying that theme into that plot beat in that overall success story is brilliant. And again, I don't know either. How much of it is Stephen King, and how much he was the screenwriter for Shawshank. But I do know that it is a beautiful example of what I'm talking about in terms of knowing your plot beats, but also using them to express a unique and powerful theme.

Alex Ferrari 31:24
Right. And also, I mean, there's a love story in there between read and an Andy. I mean, there's a friendship love story there that is so powerful as well. And so it basically drives the movie that that relationship just drives the movie completely. It I mean, we should one day, John, you and I should just sit down and have a two hour conversation about just Shawshank and let's break it down for everybody because it's just one of those movies that you just like, why is it so like you're gonna look at the Godfather and get it and you could break it down. You could Goodfellas you get it? You look at Titanic, you get it? And you look at these popular films and you just go okay, I understand. You can break it down. But Shawshank is one of those slippery stories the way like it's the worst pitch. It's the worst title in history of cinema. And, and it took a while years before it actually got it started to pick up and pick it up. People started liking it. So alright, we'll get off the Shawshank for night now guys. So um, so let's talk about genre specifically, and I'm going to read off. And this is really interesting. I'm going to read them all off and then we can tie and talk about what you mean. Because there's there's the genre and then what it means I guess the theme of it or what it is a whore is religion. Action to success myth is the life process. memoir and coming of age is creating the self science fiction a Science Society culture is yes, Science is a story for crime is morality and justice comedy manners and morals Western The Rise and Fall of civilization. Gangster the corruption of business and politics fantasy, the art of living just so interesting. Detective and, and thriller, the mind and the truth. And love is the art of happiness. So some of those I understand. Yeah, but like horror and religion. I know you said it Adam and Eve is is the one of the first horror stories. Yeah. Can you just dive in a little bit of why horror is connected to religion. I mean, I understand an exorcist and things like that. But what is it? Sure theme.

John Truby 33:29
Let me let me let me just back up for a second. So your listeners have a little context for what those things that you just read off or because I was just talking about, if you want to step out from the from the crowd, from everybody else who is writing in your genre, you have to transcend the genre. Now there's three major ways you do that. One is you twist the beats, you do them instead of the normal sequence of beats, you flip that around, or they are an individual beat, which is normally done this way you do it that way you do it the reverse of the way it's normally done. That's the first way on the plotline. The second way you do it is that a mention that each genre expresses in underneath the surface deep down a life philosophy, which is a view of how to live a successful life. And the third way that you transcend the genre is that you explore the life story form, the life art form that is embedded in that in that genre. By that I mean these these these major activities that we do on our life are not just activities. They have a story or shape of a story. They are themselves a story. So for example, religion is a story and we're not just Talking about religious stories we're talking about religion itself is a story form. You talk about, you mentioned morality, morality and justice, which is the art form of the crime story. Morality is and I break it down in the book, it is its own story form. And it's expressed through story through your particular story. So when you're really getting to the deepest part of this, of each of these genres, you're not just expressing its own life philosophy, you're expressing that larger activity of life that we do that is so important, it shapes our entire life. So you mentioned the, the example of Adam and Eve, as one of the talked about as one of the first horror stories. And what do we have there we have the, the two heroes, Adam and Eve, they are in this utopian world. And they are visited by a monster in the form of a snake. And this snake gives them basically poise. And because of that, because the because they bite the apple, because they take the boys, they commit this moral crime, and who is this crime against the crime is against the Father, God the Father. And because they have made these mistakes, made this mistake, they are sentenced to eternal hell. And in other words, what they in this particular case, they are driven out of the garden, and this utopian world, into the harsh world outside, and they are now more, they will die. Religion is basically as a story form, when you analyze it as a story form. It is basically a combination of myth and horror. Because the sequence of beats that it goes through or miss beats, but the overall theme is horrible, which is, if you do the proper thing, you go to heaven. If you do the improper thing, you go to hell. And this is, and what I talked about in that whole first chapter on horror. And this deeper, these deeper themes that horror talks about is, it's hard. It's really about how do we avoid death? It's it is, and that's why it's the first genre I talk about, because it's the most, it's the most fundamental, it's the lowest level, but also the most fundamental of all genres. And it's, it's because as human beings, we're this magnificent artistic creatures, who are able to create amazing castles and, and, and beautiful symmetries in this in our entire world, and, and in our lives. And then all of a sudden, that stops, and it just disappears, it's gone. This, this is fundamentally impossible for us as human beings to get, we cannot see this. That seems so wrong. That seems so unfair. But it's a game that we will all lose. And so what do we try to do try besides horror, which is a form of way that we deal with it. religion itself is a story form that deals with it, and it says, okay, yes, you die. But if you act a certain way in life, you're going to have life after death. And if you don't act a certain way, you're going to go to hell, which is a dystopia forevermore. So this is, and this is, so it's, you know, it's punishment, reward and punishment. And, and I go through, I love the heart chapter, because I go through it. And I talk about one of the stories I talk about it is A Christmas Carol, which is one of the most influential, in my opinion, the most influential story about Christianity that there is, and it is, you know, very much this concept of, do you do you act? Well, in this life, if you don't, you're going to pay a price. Right? If you do, you will get eternal reward. And so this, these deeper art forms that each of these genres talks about, only the very top stories, explore those get into what that deeper thing is, and what I'm trying what I try to do in the in each chapter in the second half of each chapter, is explored how this genre it expresses those deeper art forms. And therefore how can you as the writer do that too. Because once you tap into that, again, you're you're dealing at a level that no other writer is dealing with. And, and, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if I, if I pointed this out to you before or not but, but the way that the genres are sequences, very important in the book, because what I found out, as I was always looking at what each life philosophy for each genre is, I realized that there's a ladder going on here, there's a ladder of enlightenment. And that's when it goes from the lowest to the highest, the lowest is our next. And then myth, and what are the highest three, the highest three are fantasy, which is the art of living detective and thriller, which is the art of the mind and truth, and love, which is the art of happiness. And so in reading, you know, I think of it I think most readers will, most writers reading the book are going to go to the genres that they specialize in. But if you read it in that sequence, you will track a sequence of enlightenment for how to live in this world, the way genres express it.

Alex Ferrari 41:14
John Hughes, you just blew my mind open open, sir, I, it's, it's this is this, this whole book is so revolutionary. And the way it approaches story is remarkable. When you go back to horror, horror is primal. Religion is primal, the stories of religion had to be told to us, in order for us to deal with a cause with the knowledge that we're gonna die. It's especially at the primal level, at the primal level, this is something that needed to happen. And then it also might have turned into control and instead of morals and like, you know, do this or you know, the big bad, you know, someone's gonna get you kind of thing. So you were talking about Christianity, and love for you, if you can look at, let's say, an Eastern philosophy, or Eastern religion like Buddhism, which doesn't have as much, it doesn't have a hell, it doesn't have the hell is this we are in hell, we are trying to escape this hell into enlightenment, which is to, to leave my to leave this illusion, and go into enlightenment everlasting. So it's a kind of a twist on the Christian story. Did you talk a little bit about that? And because we've been taught, we're talking about enlightenment?

John Truby 42:31
Absolutely. Because if you again, if you, if you look at all of these art forms of life, through the prism of story and story beats, it immediately breaks down so clearly, and you can see oh, this is why this is this way. And that's that way. So for example, Christianity and Western religions are very much goal focused, and it's very much goal focused to what are the things what are the actions I need to do to get to that afterlife to defeat mortality? Right. Eastern religion is the opposite of that. And what is the difference in terms of the basic seven structure steps that I talked about? Starting with weakness deed, second step is desire? Well, what is Buddhism but taking that desire step and says, No, reverse it. The trick is not to desire because your desires will take you down the road of addiction and take you into love of false value that is not going to be good for you. So it's very much anti materialistic. It's very much anti live for the future and future meaning after you're dead. No, it's how do you live now? No, all religions have moral stories. Because they're all about how do you live this life? In something like Christianity it's about how do you live this life to get you into the future life? Isn't religion is not that it's how do you live this life best and of course, keep in mind that you're also doing but much more hierarchical societies that when these when these particular region religions evolved, and so but but the point is in certain if you look at it from these basic structures steps you see the the fundamental ways in story terms of how these different religions express the right way to live but they're all expressing a view of how to live well.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
Right their roadmap on how to live basically that's what a religion generally it's a set of either philosophies or rules in Western is more rules and Eastern is more philosophy based on how to live a good life a proper life and but I love that you did You said in regards to the Western religions are much more focused on goals because you're absolutely right they are. And the Eastern philosophies and religions are not like Taoism and, and they're completely differently focused, but they all have a story on how to live life. And I bring this up because of as storytellers we can start tapping into these because these are very powerful themes. We're talking about extremely powerful themes. And, you know, if you start analyzing, I mean, something like The Matrix, the themes in there are so multi layered. Yeah, and goes so deep in the philosophy and philosophical terms, that it's, it's mind blowing, you can watch the matrix 100 times the first one 100 times and still get something new out of it, because it's just so dense.

John Truby 45:54
Well, it's in the book, I go, I talk a lot about the matrix. And one of the things I talk about is the concept of the chosen one, which is a major element in many myths, stories. And of course, the matrix is basically a combination of science fiction and myth. And that says, part of the reason that it has such power is it combines these two forms. And one of this this element of the chosen one, and a distinguished that was something you also see in science fiction that you don't see in religion you don't see in myth stories, which is the niches Superman concept the also known as the over man, and what the differences between the chosen one versus the overmanned character and Neo is basically he's, he's both his vote. In my opinion, they don't quite get to the level of requirement in philosophy, although it's a very philosophically savvy story. They don't get quite to the level of the overmanned but then, but then as I pointed out in the book, no writer has ever been able to express in, in fictional terms what the over when each is over man character would would actually be because he's a character who is of a higher level morality than than humankind.

Alex Ferrari 47:18
But isn't that isn't that Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, you know, Confucius and the list goes on and on.

John Truby 47:24
Yes, if it is commonly thought that these great religious characters are the closest actual human beings to get to Nietzsche his view of the over man, but in case of the matrix, they were they're able to ask the questions, but they don't quite go far enough in terms of and they probably are doing that on purpose. They, you know, there's a, again, there's a fear that a lot of people have, I don't want to be too, too forceful in my thematics. Because I don't want to hit people over the head with I don't want to be preachy. And you definitely don't want to do that. But the matrix is obviously one of the great science fiction films ever made. And as I say, I talk a lot about it as an IT, but especially in terms of it's because it's not science fiction, it's not myth, it's the combination of the two. And that's what kicks it to this higher low,

Alex Ferrari 48:22
And obviously has some kick ass kung fu in it, that doesn't hurt. For for its day as well, which is, you know, the term that, as far as storytellers go and spectacle is part of a spectacle is part of the storytelling process. Avatar is spectacle, as well,

John Truby 48:40
Talking about what you're talking about, there is a sub form of action, which is basically the samurai movie, it's the same thing in Star Wars, it's the it's the same thing in a lot of these movies that have the big spectacle. So you're talking myth, action, and science fiction, that is an incredibly powerful combination of forms. And one of these I talked about in the book is that it's really a great technique for success is to combine genres that are not normally combined.

Alex Ferrari 49:12
Now, right, mixing them throwing them all together,

John Truby 49:14
Exactly. But But doing in ways and there's a reason why certain ones are not combined. As I mentioned earlier, some of them come into conflict. They're, they're fundamentally different messages. And they're fundamentally different sequences of plot beats. So there's certain ones that don't go together. But if you can figure out how to put ones together that are not normally connected. The fact that it's so new, the fact that it's never been seen before on the worldwide market means everybody goes, Wow, that thing's incredible. Let me give you an example. Inception. Inception is a combination of science fiction, and heist. Science fiction, also known as caper. It's a science fiction caper story. Now, nobody does that. Nobody does that. They do it by doing it in such a way that, you know, with the kind of brilliance that they can do it. They, they had one of the great science fiction movies. And this is what you try to do in terms of use, because you think, well, if it's a genre world, and I have to hit all these beats that everybody else is hitting, how do I do something that's original that stands out? Well, as they say, one way you do is you twist the beats. Another way you do it is you mix genres that are not normally mixed together. But again, the main way to do it, is to get into that thematic level to express the life philosophy, and to express that deeper art form of life.

Alex Ferrari 50:41
So just looking at your genres here, which is I mean, I would suggest every writer take that list, I read off, photocopy and put it on their, on their wall, because you could just start looking like well, what if I threw a comedy Western, that's Blazing Saddles, okay. And you start throwing things together, and the one that I just threw together as we were talking, horror love story. That's Bride of Frankenstein, essentially. Right?

John Truby 51:07
That would be an example. Yeah, but there's not that's not a very common one is not it is not, it's a great idea for a combination

Alex Ferrari 51:15
Because it's just it's you're taking the highest and the lowest on the, on the on the ladder, and slamming them together where they shouldn't mix because love is at a much higher quote unquote, vibration than horror, which is at a very low, primal, right? Vibration, if you will,

John Truby 51:33
Especially when you break it down into structured terms. And the plot beats, you see exactly why, which is the desire. And the desire line is one of the most important things that determines that defines the genre in terms of how it works. What is it is Ireland? What is it Caroline is the goal of the hero? Okay, what does the hero want in this story, and so that the desire Line tracks the entire plot. So all those plot beats, or, or landmarks on that desire line, on that goal line there steps beats to getting that goal. So the one of the reasons that Har is the lowest level is its desire line is the lowest desire you can have, which is to escape. And so it's a very reactive desire line. Love is the most active and it's the highest level in terms of, it's not just I want to form an attraction with another person. No, it's how do I live my life in love with another human being, so that both of us are at the highest level of human being that we can be. So combining that escape with how do I find that person who I can be my best self with? That's why they're almost never combined. But that's, that is the challenge, but that's always the opportunity, which is if you can figure out how to do that. Nobody else is doing it. And you stand out and everybody says, Wow, that person is brilliant.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
Well, that's what exactly what happened with Jim Hart when he wrote Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula with Francis Coppola, that is a perfect example of a love horror story. And this is pretty, I mean, as beautifully executed of that genre of that mixture of genre that I've ever seen, because it is a true love story. Pretty off

John Truby 53:32
I admit to you, I have not seen it since it came out so I don't really remember it.

Alex Ferrari 53:38
But it is about remember I made a post that literally the tagline is love never dies. Because it's this you know, gender you know, multi, you know, generational love story between the two main characters. And it's just, you know, reincarnation and multiple, I mean, it's just a pretty deep conversation. But again, that's one of those examples of that. Now, Ken, let's because a lot of people are probably listening going, okay, great, multiple genres. Great. Let's throw let's throw some movies out. And let's see how we can see what those genres are combined and see if we can kind of give examples so people kind of understand why certain things are successes. So we've talked about avatar and the matrix Fight Club let's see if you can you can you do something with Fight Club.

John Truby 54:24
Fight Club is really interesting. And I talk about fight club, in the in the detective story. And I talk about it as because I talked about really high level detective stories are about the mind itself. They're about how does the mind soul problems? How do we How does the mind operate at the highest level which is truth? And this end quote is a detective form. The way you live a good life is you become very good at understanding Finding where is the where does the truth lie. And then, of course, in a social world, with all the facades that we face day every day, that's very hard to do. But it's essential, it can mean our life, we could die if we don't make that we don't have that understanding. And so what you get with Fight Club is, it's a story about I talk about it as one of the sub genres of transcended detective stories, which is a story about the self, the story of the Senator Lee, literally, the first thing that we talked about, we were talking about, you know, what is story story is, we live through story from the day we're born, because we're, we start to immediately form that sense of I am a unique individual, I am a self. And I'm different from that person, who may be an ally, to me, that's mom, or is a little bit older, people who try to prevent me from getting my desires, those are opponents, right. And so we formed this sense of self. But that sense of self is not necessary. And it usually becomes hardened into someone I saw ideology, which we talked about. But at the level of Fight Club, what happens is that and there's other stories like this, to deal with this, like breathless, which is a famous French New Wave story, which is, when you get into the technological world, it's highly technological, the ability to divide the self from the image becomes magnified exponentially. And as soon as you are able to divide the image of the self from the self, then the ability to essentially destroy yourself goes way up. And what you get there in Fight Club, is, you get a guy who is he is in deep trouble, right? And so he creates again, I don't want to give it away to anybody who's never

Alex Ferrari 57:10
Again, for it fast forward about a minute or two right now, if you haven't seen Fight Club,

John Truby 57:13
Yeah. But he creates this alter ego, who we think is his ally, becomes his opponent. But it's actually the image of himself that he would like to be. But in doing that, and dividing himself off from himself, and having it be somebody who is basically, you know, the Id run rampant. He goes down a series of path of destruction that can only you know, they've, he basically pulls back from it at the end. But it is a very destructive sequence. So that's why I think fightclub was very unique and very advanced, in terms of what it's trying to do, of focusing on the war within the self,

Alex Ferrari 58:05
Which is a war that we're all fighting. Yeah, throughout life, you know, they were always get That's the voice in our head, telling us not to eat the cheesecake, or to eat the cheesecake and then beat ourselves up afterwards, later that night.

John Truby 58:20
And that's why it's so fundamental to the mind itself, which is the is somebody talked about throughout the book, that all this comes off the ability of the human mind, to project to create an image of not only itself, but of anything. And so, so examples you just gave a perfect example. I am me, but I'm also somebody who would like to eat that cheesecake, but I know I can project forward, if I eat that cheesecake, I'm gonna add five pounds into I'm really gonna like the way I look with five pounds, and all that extra fat. No, I'm not, but I really want it. So we're at war with ourselves. Every day, in every decision that we make, there is some level of conflict going on. And if you don't learn to manage that, and of course, Fight Club has many stories zoo just takes it to its logical extreme, you get this massive destruction.

Alex Ferrari 59:16
You know, I want to go a little deeper into what we're talking about here about the self because I think this is and the ability to project because as storytellers and anybody else listening who might not be a storyteller, I think it's fascinating to understand that the reason why stories even work is because of our own ability to project into the future to connect with the characters. That's why when a dog watches it doesn't, doesn't do so well. Unless there's, you know, a cat in the video or something. But generally speaking, that ability in when we're all these examples we're talking about, let me throw an example out to you because this is such a classic. It was one of my top 10 films of All time and arguably one of my favorite Stanley Kubrick films, The Shining. Yeah, there is so much going on in The Shining. It is such a dense, dense film. But on the on the surface, it's not every I think every single movie we've kind of brought out on the surface, it doesn't seem like what's going on behind. There's multiple layers about it. There's something psychological about the shining, that just just digs into you in a way that normal horror. Doesn't doesn't do, because it's yeah, it's horrific. And yeah, there's some graphic Gore in it, but it's, it's not?

John Truby 1:00:43
Well, Alex, that's, that's because you put your finger on one of the main transcendent our films ever made. Right? It is a trend, it's because it transcends the form. And I talk in a book, I break it down, I talk about why is this a transcendent horror story. And one of the things is that, you know, in a basic horror story, you've got this external monster, who's constantly attacking, and we get the problems are hitting the same beat, and bam, bam, bam, and so and so the very low level plot, that's why Asia heart is probably the least respected over all genres, although when it's done at a high level

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
Silence of the Lambs, yeah, right.

John Truby 1:01:28
Well, Silence of the Lambs this is actually thriller, but thriller, and I talked about this in the book thriller is actually a combination of detective and horror. Got it. And, but but the point is, with with the shining, you get, instead of the external opponent, he is the external police, both the hero and the external opponent, because he is projecting this image. And what he's really fighting against the prison that he is, in is of his own making. And so you know, he's his, his sense of responsibility, his drive to be successful, you know, his, and it's so great that it's about a writer. We all know what it's like, you know, all work, and no play makes Jack a dull boy, generically. You know, and he is so driven, because he's going off to this Overlook Hotel, to try to write this book. Right. And, and so all that's doing is putting him into this, this haunted house, basically, it's a haunted hotel, but puts him in a haunted house. And I talk in in our chapter, that haunted house is simply the character's great fear made physical and then we force them to live in the opponent, especially in a transcendent horror story, is the opponent's the heroes greatest fear turned into a character that then attacks him constantly. Now, most horror stories don't get to that level, they don't get to that metaphorical thematic level. But the shining does. And and one of the things that that I talked about in The Shining dim that why it's so great is because they connect the heroes, great flaws, weakness need, with the flaw of the house with the flaw the hotel, the hotel has a ghost. And it's the same ghost that Jack has only Jack's goes to the beginning, which is that he's gotten in trouble with social services, with physically abusing his son, whereas the ghost for the house is that this guy murdered his family. But what you see there is Jack's ghost, Jack's weakness is at a much lower level than that of the house. But it plants the seeds of potential for him to commit that same crime at the very end of the story. So there's just all kinds of reasons why the shining is this transcendent horror story, in my opinion, one of the all time greats. And it's, but it again, it goes to that idea that if you want to get to that level, as a writer, you've got to go to the transcendent level. And you got to know how to do that. And so and that's why, basically, this book was not just about how do you write a story in this form? It's how do you write a great story in this form?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:20
And I love that what you're saying is like, instead of the outside in, it's inside out, yes, fight and that's what makes that horror movie. So so because it is it's a representation of what we deal with on a daily basis, which is more horrific than any monster trying to come at us. It is the monster inside that little voice, that little thing that is being projected out to an extreme, obviously in the story, but that's probably one of the reasons why it is so unsettling and that's the best word I can use for that though. It is on settling. It is horrific in a unset way where, you know, Friday the 13th or nightmare before November, and I'm St. They are just fun rides of like I get scared, right? There's none of that in the shining, the shining, I always said shining was psychological I couldn't, I didn't have the language to understand what was going on, I think you've finally just helped me with that.

John Truby 1:05:19
And one of the major things for transcending every form, every genre is this personal psychological element. In other words, what we're trying to do is because Because keep in mind, the hero of each of these genres, is in some way a mythical character. It is the cowboy, the detective, and so on. They're an iconic character. So and there's great power in that that's why they're the genres. And that's why the genres are the All Stars of the story world. They've got the each one is led by an iconic type. But the trick then is use the power of that type, but then individualize it with those psychological dramatic elements. That's why I talk in the book about the really top transcend stories in every genre, take that, that genre plot system, combine it with drama techniques, which is not actually a genre, technically speaking genre. But it's, it's, it's story techniques that are very personal, with a very highly detailed hero, with a very personal opponent, typically within the family, typically, to deal with moral problems, and so on. So you're taking those kinds of techniques, combining them with these genre beats and genre elements and type elements. That combination is incredibly powerful. And shiny is just an example of that. You got all the elements of horror, but it's coming in at this really super personal psychological level, that you can't watch it and not think, man, especially if you're a writer, not think, hey, that could be me.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:56
It is it is pulling strings, that you as a writer know what strings you're pulling, but the audience member is not aware of it. Right? And Hitchcock did that so beautifully. In that special in that run of 678 films that he did that were you know, from psycho on that were, they just connect and they're pulling on certain strings in your psyche, that you walk out going, I don't know what I just went through. It's like when you watch the shining, you're like, I can't express to you, the Shawshank I can't express to you what I'm feeling or how I got there. So I think this is a, this would be a really interesting exercise. Can we go through a few of the genres? And can you give an example of a transcendent film in the genre?

John Truby 1:07:43
Absolutely. So Action. Action, first of all, you got to start with Seven Samurai with the greatest action film ever made, and it's transcended. And I'd make the argument that it's probably the best film ever made. Now, obviously, that that's a that's a personal opinion, but I go through a lot of reasons why it is and why is it because it is a it is a action epic, it's basically combining acts taking action, the act the key action elements, putting it to it, the epic level which in epic, the definition the story definition of Epic is the fate of the nation is determined by the actions of a single individual or family. And so, when you and by the way, this is one of the ways that all of the genres can go to the transcendent level, you take the form and you make an epic out of it, you take it to the national level. So seven you got to start with Seven Samurai other other story action stories that define the form diehard is is to this day, it is beat for beat. It is great stories if you look at you go all the way back to the original great action, great action epic, which is the Iliad. And you look at and in this in the book I talk about about sub genres, certain sub genres of each form. And the because action is about keeping score. Actions about do use How do you succeed and so in anything where you keep score, that's what we're action is involved. So I talked about some form of sports stories. And there you've got things like Rocky which is a combination of sports story plus love story. And you've got what I think is probably the best quote sports story film ever made, which is the hustler brilliant script. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, who also did what was the chest thing that that that was on? It was on Netflix a couple years ago?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:51
Oh, um, the intimate intimidation game. No, no intimidation game. No. Yeah, the God I know which one Queens gambit. Thank you. Thanks.

John Truby 1:10:00
Written by the same guy does Queens gambit which is also terrific. But then you look at you look at also talk a lot in the action. form of Mad Mad Max Fury row. Oh, yeah, I mean, this thing is just No, it's very simplistic action on the level that you talked about action as the cleanest desert island of St. John. And basically it's restored here. We go to there, we get to there we find it, there's nothing there we go back, straight, literally straight line run right there. But the way that he adds, he kicks those action elements up to the epic level and adds horror to it. Again, it's as good as it gets in that action for

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
Now, let's talk about myth. Yeah.

John Truby 1:10:49
Well, with myth you've got, you know, again, you go back to the original I talk about the Odyssey as one of the keys to is one of the transcendent ones. Lord of the Rings, of course, is in myth form, I break down Lord of the Rings as the ultimate male myth story. Also talk about Wizard of Oz as a female Mr. It's one of the first and it she goes on a journey, but the way she handles the beads is very different than a male in that story. also talks about Star Wars A New Hope. This story is a combination of that four or five genres. The most important one is myth. And, and that brace basically brought on the modern world of film, everything, everything after Star Wars, it talked about this right in the opening chapter, the book, everything in everything before Star Wars was was primarily a single genre movie, everything after his multi genre movie, and it was, it was all that because Hollywood, Hollywood execs realized, oh my god, if we mix up these genres, we get four times the plot beats than if we have one genre. And and, and the fact that its primary genre was myth, and that combination is key. Mixing genres. Myth is the most popular genre form there is. So and that's why, for example, James Cameron Hughes always uses it.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:25
But why, why is it so popular,

John Truby 1:12:29
Because it transcends cultural differences. So for example, comedy is very tough to get a worldwide hit with because so many of the references are to that particular culture. And even within a subculture, where as myth, the story beats of the myth journey, are, are something that everyone will pass through, because what myth is, as they talked about, in terms of what that art form is that that myth is actually dealing with, it's the life journey. And so it's, it's a, it's a metaphorical expression of the life journey, we will all go through. And that's something everybody around the world in any culture can understand and can be moved by. So So in terms of you get Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Wizard of Oz, I talk about Black Panther, extremely important film on for a number of reasons. And, and Avatar, those are the big ones.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
Coming of Age, which is also really interesting one,

John Truby 1:13:30
Yes. Coming of age, I talked about that in the memoir chapter, because they're both what they are fiction and nonfiction versions of creating the self. And so with coming of age, you've got things like moonlight. Cinema, Paradiso, Koto, recently, was tremendously powerful. I think you look at that movie, and you think, you know, that that was basically TV movie from the 80s. Right? What Why would that be? Why would that be so popular and so powerful? Well, it's because the things of the TV movies of the 80s did, which was tell a dramatic story that is highly personal, that is highly moving, but done it with a twist. That's really powerful. You know, it's like when King's speech came out, won the Academy Award. You know, that's a TV movie when he's talking about well, what they're doing there is very powerful. It's again, you using genre with tremendous dramatic elements and that combination is unbeatable. So you got caught up and and of course you've got To Kill a Mockingbird

Alex Ferrari 1:14:43
And yeah, now one of my favorite genres is sci fi. Yeah, I can I can. I mean, ones that I think that do it and now tell me if you agree or not, Blade Runner, alien but aliens throwing horror in there as well, too. Terminator, Jesus and Terminator two, both are bat at the abyss, you just got that James campus.

John Truby 1:15:06
Those are what you're talking about a lot of those are at least some of those are they're not primarily science fiction, in turn, why? Because, yes, they have the science fiction overlay in terms of the world in terms of setting the future, for example, but what you what you want to look at when you're trying to identify what is the primary genre that's being done here is where the structured beats, what are the plot beats that they're tracking? Okay. So when you're talking about science fiction, and sometimes it's difficult to pull them apart, you can't see what a what the primary form is. But I in science fiction I talk about the matrix is primarily science fiction, but it's got a myth addition to it. Of course, you got 2001 arrival, which is a female myth, science fiction story. It's very holistic, it's not about battle. It's about preventing battles from happening. Very advanced this film very advanced me huge fan of that. So and you got things like Inception and inner star? These guys, these guys are the best in terms of film, understanding techniques of screenwriting, I'm not talking about necessarily, would they make a great science fiction novel, but in terms of science fiction film, using the benefits the strengths of the film medium, there's nothing there's there's no rebirth. Nice guy.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:43
One of my favorite as well, comedy, I love to hear what is a transcendent comedy?

John Truby 1:16:51
Well, first of all, comedy is really interesting, because in a way, you could argue that it is the opposite of every other form. Almost almost every other form is about accomplishing a goal. Comedy is about failure as a goal. It's about every other genre is about how things work in some way. You know, we've got problems, but they're fixable, and we're going to society is going to succeed. Well, comedies about how things don't work, right, how things are screwed up, and how the hero is incompetent, and yet somehow succeeds at the end, in spite of his incompetence. To me, the I use a lot of TV examples, because I believe that especially over the last 20 years since the sopranos, but we're really farther back to Seinfeld. TV has overcome film, in terms of the best storytelling in the world. And I think it's even close. And so I use a lot of TV examples in in comedy. The biggest example I used transcend a comedy is Seinfeld, Seinfeld revolutionary, in my opinion, even greater than then sopranos, which I put number two is the greatest series ever made. But Seinfeld, the excellence the level of excellence, per episode, per season, over nine seasons, there's nothing that matches that level of brilliance. But it's rare. It was revolutionary in terms of character. It was revolutionary in terms of plot, in comedy on revolutionary in terms of character, because you had four equal characters, not just the star, four equal characters, and you had their own like, in the classic sense of the term, that was unheard of. It was unheard of at the time, you did not do that. Right? Not just one, four of them. And then it was revolutionary and plot because you were tracking for typically four different storylines within a 22 minute episode. And they track for each one of those characters and then woven together with a kick at the end, in terms of how it all wove together, you never know really how it's going to come together. And it always did. And it was always brilliant. So in terms of comedy, I think you got to start with Seinfeld I talked about a lot about Little Miss Sunshine,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:18
Which is just watched that the other day Oh, so beautifully

John Truby 1:19:22
Groundhog Day. Perfection, perfection and the most philosophical comedy ever written by far by far. And and an interesting I talk a lot about Wedding Crashers in terms of combining Comedy genres. Because you're there you're again, why because you're getting the densification of plot, and a lot of times comedies don't have the densest plot. So what do you do? You've combined comedy forms. In this particular case they combined buddy picture with romantic comedy. Both Both of them are very popular. You put the two of them together and it's almost never done. You put the two of them together, and you have this massive hit

Alex Ferrari 1:20:09
In something like Oh god, it's just I mean, it will Dumb and Dumber. Is a buddy film mix with a quote unquote love story.

John Truby 1:20:17
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:21
But you started looking at the biggest hits of all time as far as comedies are concerned. And you can start seeing how they it's not a simple, right straight line as far as like, Oh, it's just a buffoon, you know, doing stuff. It's, it gets complex. But the thing about common is that when you said Wedding Crashers, I was like, Oh, that doesn't seem very complex. But with the second you said, are those two general like, I guess it's, it's not on face surface? On a surface level? You really can't tell. That's what's about with other genres you can't.

John Truby 1:20:54
It's also the level of the quality of the writing. What I've said that early on that a lot of writers know that you need to mix genres, but they don't know how, because mixing is very difficult, because you don't what is the main line? What's the main desire line? Who's the hero who's driving the story? Who's the main opponent? What are the main beats that we're going to talk about, so on and so forth. So it's hard to do. So when you can mix genres in a seamless way. So the audience can't see it. That's brilliant. That that's that is, that is the level of craft that we're talking about. And that's why I wrote the book, which was to say, here's how you do it. Right? You know, these are all these great films that we love. Well, you know, what she has to I have to write something on that level? Well, it's technique, it goes down to technique, and using the old things of three act structure, and so on and so forth. That ain't gonna get you anywhere close to that the technique that's required to, to write these kind of transcendent stories.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:52
You're talking about scripts, and movies and novels and stories that are at the top 1% of nought point 1% of all stories being told right now, you're literally laying things out that these are the top five or the top 10 screenplays. Yep, of every year at the Oscars like this is what this is the kind of storytelling we're talking about, is to elevate yourself to that level. Yes, by understanding these genres and being able to combine them. And I think that so many, so many young writers don't understand that. The key, as we've been saying, in this entire conversation, is combination of genres, because that's what's interesting. We're far beyond the straight hero, woman in distress villain hero saves her from the trip. We're way beyond that, at this point.

John Truby 1:22:44
Well, you pointed out earlier, the viewer is so knowledgeable about storing because he's seen 1000s of them from the earliest age, that you know, I talked about this, and Detective Detective Story is a game that the author plays with the audience, can I get you to the end of this thing before you figure out who did it. And it's gotten harder and harder because the audience is so savvy, they know what tells to look for in terms of oh, that means that that person is probably not guilty. And that means they probably are guilty, and so on. So you got to take it, one step above that. And and what I'm saying in this book is, that is how all these genres work. The level of story that is required story mastery that is required to succeed in any of these genres is so high. And what I'm showing you, you know, me from things we've done in the past together, I'm all about being honest with riders in terms of this is what is required to be in that competition to be at that level. You know, it's like, it's like you want to play professional sports, you type at the top point 1% athletes, right? You want to play at that level, this is what you got to do. This is a training you got to get and so what I and that's why this book is 700 pages, because to break down each of these 14 genres, to the degree required to write professionally in those genres. That was the kind of detail that was required.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:17
And unlike sports, anyone could intended if you have a typewriter and a brain that understands this, you're not limited by genetics, right? Because you and I are not going to the NFL or the NBA or the MLB or NFL.

John Truby 1:24:32
I have always wanted to be the point guard for the for the Lakers.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:37
And I wanted to be a wide receiver for the Miami Dolphins. You know, it's like it's just wasn't in our cards or we're doing God's work though. I'll go with that. I'll go we're doing God's work. We're trying to tell better stories out there. But that's something that it's kind of a reality bomb and truth that this is what you need to do to try Ansem to really get to a higher level of storytelling, if, if this is the craft that you want to go down. Look, we all aim to be that top 1%. But you have a better chance if you start understanding the technique a little bit more and use. And there's only so many times you can read a Tarantino script or a Shane Black script or an Aaron Sorkin script. It's kind of like reading, in many ways, unless you really understand technique. It's like reading a physics equation. Exactly. And someone's telling you this, this really is important. I'm like, I kind of understand what x is. But what is why that go?

John Truby 1:25:39
What if you don't know what you're looking for? You read those scripts. And what that's really that was a really fun script, it was really great. You have no clue as to why what is really structurally going on, that produces those effects. That's why technique is so important. And added, you know, I talked to us that sports analogy again, you know, these guys that the top athletes in their field, they weren't. They didn't just show up on the court being super talented from the beginning. Yeah, they probably had some real DNA, great natural ability in certain ways. However, they also have been getting training, coaching, deep training, probably from the age of six years old, if you want to get to the professional level. So what I'm what I try to do with this book, whereas as I mentioned earlier, it's not just how do you write the shot? Or how do you write a great one, because that's the what's what's going to be required to get set you above everybody else and get you into that 1% You got to get professional level training. Right, you got to know what to look for. And you got to know the techniques for producing it yourself.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:50
Now in the detective genre, things like knives out more recently, yeah, that I feel did a really amazing job because when I watch television shows that are like, you know, let's say procedurals, you know, cop shows, which are, you know, they're everywhere. I've gotten to the point where I could watch them and my wife and I, oh, watch him. Oh, sit there going. It's a janitor. No. And then as you and your rights that game, you're like, how far can I go till I figure it out? Yeah. And at a certain point, you're like, Well, there's only one character left that has to be that person. So it's just kind of like in TV, you kind of run out of time to do that. But in a feature or in a show, let's say if it's a long show, you have more time to kind of throw a lot of red herrings out at people. But in your opinion, what are some transcendent detective stories? Obviously, you know, we'll go back to to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who I think it was Edgar Allan Poe, who created that detective story. But gone, Doyle really took it to another place.

John Truby 1:27:51
Well, you know, I think Sherlock Holmes is still the greatest detective ever. And, but But you're right. Edgar Allan Poe created the form and hidden and had many of the beats that are still the key beats in the form. I mean, this guy Edgar Allan Poe was was so underrated in terms of his influence in the world, in the history of story. Because he not only was probably the premier master of the horror form, and what I call the psychological horror form, where you're getting that Stephen King thing with the psycho psychological elements, infusing the horror and making it even greater. He also created the detective form two radically different forms in certain ways, opposite forms. So I mean, you know, that's an incredible achievement. Um, Sherlock Holmes, to this day is probably the most popular character in storytelling and in television. One of the main ways that you pitch a show is Sherlock Holmes doing X. You know, house was Sherlock Holmes was pitching Sherlock Holmes in a hospital you know. And and what was The Mentalist was pitched as? What would happen if Sherlock Holmes and Angelina Angelina Jolie had a baby. I mean, it's just incredibly influential. But in terms of transcendent ones, I go back to vertigo. Which is, I think in many people in terms of film historians, it's in the top 10 of films ever made. But I break it down extensively in the book in terms of why is it a transcend detective story, what are the key techniques that kick in it kicked it up to that level and make it to this day that great more recently I think knives out did a lot of unique flips to the form that was very necessary now because detective story is almost completely left film and gone to television. police procedure is an example. As you say, Detective form is the most popular form in television worldwide, not just the US worldwide, but it's for that reason, it's rarely seen in film. But you have talked about Chinatown. My opinion, probably the most creative. Transcend transcendent detective story of the last 100 years is Murder on the Orient Express. And I don't want to get into why that is. But some of the things that Agatha Christie who is still in the top three in terms of detective writers, the things that she is doing there that that thematically have so much more powerful than the normal detective story, or just you just phenomenal. So I have great respect for her on the Orient Express. And, and so Chinatown and and then in terms of I talked about transcendent detective story where we're talking about the mind. The key film there is Rush Limbaugh. Oh, because you're right, were influential.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:08
But then but they also he also created a new genre of story. Oh, of course, I did that multiple times in his career, but with Russia, man, there's like the Russia mon movie like, yeah,

John Truby 1:31:19
It's the Russia mon effect. And now you can't do that without somebody saying, oh, yeah, you're doing the Russia mon effect. Yeah, he he now owns that.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:28
I mean, yeah, it was it's a historic one incident from three different perspectives, all in the same. And then you have to make the choice who's telling the truth. Right. Yeah, I mean, not only that, but it's a beauty of how we shot it. And all that stuff is crazy. Another genre love the love story. I love to hear your opinion and transcendent love stories.

John Truby 1:31:49
I could have picked all kinds of things here is just such a beautiful form. The problem with love story is that so many people write it. You know, it is romance is the most popular genre in novels, by far, by far. And romantic comedy. It's a it's a lovely combination of romance and comedy. It's extremely difficult to write well, and because it's been written so many times, again, you get that problem that you get with horror, which is you just doing the basic one. It's predictable. You can't succeed with that. But recently, I think some ones that are really stood out are Silver Linings Playbook. Yeah. And 500 Days of Summer. Yep. A you know, in the in kind of an indie thing, small level thing, but super creative in the script. Super creative and how it is flipping a lot of the beats of love story. I think you have to go back to When Harry Met Sally. As masterpiece, we Yeah, it's certainly in the top three of romantic comedies ever made. And I go back to its predecessor, which is still in the top three, which is Philadelphia Story.

Alex Ferrari 1:33:09
Ah, yeah. I mean, yeah. And then of course, there's,

John Truby 1:33:14
You look at you look at Alex, you look at the you look at that again, and it's basically a stage play, but you'll look at it again. And you will see techniques that are still used predominantly in the form. Because what we have here is we have the female lead with three male suitors. And it is the where does that come from? All comes from Jane Austen. Jane Austen is the mother of romantic comedy. She created the form, she is the master and everybody else is using her techniques. But Philadelphia Story does them beautifully in the sense that it the whole point of the love stories and not just about the guy and the girl. It's about comparing, comparing love. It's comparing marriages, it's comparing, in this case, the men because you have three very different kinds of men who will produce three very different kinds of marriages with her, and the way that they treat her and the way they look at her. And so it's just

Alex Ferrari 1:34:18
Again like my mom, it's like Mamma mia, Philadelphia stores kind of like Mamma Mia. And

John Truby 1:34:22
Remind me how that works.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:24
Mamma Mia was the three fathers. Oh, they were trying to figure out who the father is and the seizures are and and then they throw the daughter and and there's Meryl Streep singing Alba. And

John Truby 1:34:37
Yeah, I don't necessarily think of Mamma Mia with Philadelphia Story. But you make a good point you made Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:34:44
Exactly. And then if even going back farther in cinemas, like it happened one night with Clark Gable. That was another one. And I mean, you can't talk about romantic comedies. You know, you know politically correct or not Annie Hall is still masterpiece. Oh, yeah. I mean, is what you can separate the director. That movie is a masterpiece and it based the form of modern date romantic comedies, would you agree?

John Truby 1:35:12
Absolutely. I it is, unfortunately, because of the person. And I'm not making any judgment one way or the other. We can't talk about him. But in terms of which cannot be denied that any Hall is one of the three greatest romantic comedies and majorly transcends the form main

Alex Ferrari 1:35:37
Events in it was a 1980 that came out I think it was like 79 He 77 Yeah, something like that. It was around that time. Can you imagine that time of it's, it's, it transcends today, if that movie came out of transcendence. is it's such an influential film. There's two authors I want to just ask you about because I think both these authors transcend their genres, in so many ways, and the first one is Shakespeare. And what he was able to do, not only in one genre and multiple genres, what is going on in his storytelling that connects so much with all of us? Because he was a playwright, like many other playwrights of his day, but there's something about his storytelling. What is it about the themes of like, I mean, obviously, Romeo and Juliet, you know, is the ultimate love story tragedy? You know, you know, King Lear, Macbeth, Hamlet, I mean, Hamlet, arguably one of the most perfect stories ever written? These, what is he doing? on a on a nuts and bolts level that makes us connect so much with his storytelling?

John Truby 1:36:48
Well, you know, it's such a crucial question. That's why I talk about it quite a bit in the book. And we talk about it both in the tragedies, and in the comedies. And his, his skill is equally in both of those areas, I think most people would say is tragedies are, are at the highest level. But that may be because of the bias towards serious storytelling as opposed to Congress. And I'm not sure that that's justified. But having said that, you know, when I'm in my story class, I've always talked about him, as you know, we all consider him the greatest writer of all time. And one reason for that is that of every level of story of every level of technique, whether it be plot, character, theme, etc, etc, he is the best at that level, dialogue, he is the best at that level. So so, you know, we could go on forever in terms of what he's doing in the book I talk about in the tragedies I talked about one of the tricks that he uses, is that he matches the story with the psychological flaw of the character at that age. Zone. So in, in the romantic tragedy of Romeo and Juliet, if the tragedy evolves from the flaws of these two young people, they're very young, I think they're 14 or something in the in the play. It could be wrong, but they're very young. But but this is from the tragedy evolves from the overwhelming passion of first law, and the inability of these young people to understand how they can put not only deal with their, their families, but how they can more importantly, deal with their own passion. And that's where the true that's where the true tragedy lies. You then go to Hamlet, Hamlet is a young adult. And so the great flaw for Hamlet is he is trying to make moral sense of the world. And his flaw is not that he's not normally talked about as well. He didn't know how to make a decision. He didn't know how to act. Well know what his flaw is. He is so conscious of the moral conundrum that he is dealing with, and whether the right and wrong of what his response is going to be that it leads to the tragedy that ultimately kills him. And this is the flaw of a young person, a young adult who is still formulating their moral code. Then you get up to a Macbeth Macbeth is middle aged. And what is the key flaw there? It's when you're in middle age, it's all about ambition. You know, it's it's it's it's, it's how far do you go to get the life success that you're looking for? And then we jump way up to lear. That is the flaw of an old man. That is a flaw of somebody who does not cannot recognize When His power is over, and he cannot recognize which daughter really loves him. And so he again, these are all characters who create their own demise. Now, in the comedy chapter I talk about Shakespearean comedies and all of the techniques that, that he uses the major structure techniques that he uses to get his comic effects. One of the most important which he also used in Romeo and Juliet is mistaken identity. And this is a major This is a major technique in all comedy is mistaken identity. Or, and, and playing, taking on a role taking on a disguise, because comedy is all about facades, it's all about people put on facades to be successful and worker and loved. And then the story tracks how we pull those facades down. And so and so, you know, the second identity and, and, and role playing is one of the ways people put on facades, but because it's done in a comic vein, we get to laugh at it. Whereas in when when there's mistaken identity in Romeo and Juliet, it creates the tragedy.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:16
Yeah, something like Much Ado About Nothing or Midsummer Night's Dream it, I think, much ado about nothing, there is a mistaken identity that kind of spawns the whole, yeah, spins the story to start, I mean, and it just keeps going and going even though it was planned, you know, false identity, things like that. But that is the brilliance of that film. Or excuse me of that story. Another one I wanted to talk about author wise, and it's an ask about these authors, because it's so important, because these are the top level of these are the All Stars of writing. And it's really interesting to deconstruct why they're successful. JK Rowling, and the Harry Potter series, you know, on the surface, it's about a wizard, going to a school, some spec, there's definitely spectacle in there. We've all heard wizard stories before I met in magic stories. But there was something that connected with the worldwide audience that sent kids standing in line at a bookstore for a book and you imagine, what is it about? That that those eight books or seven books assuming those seven books that just connected with us at such a deep, deep level?

John Truby 1:42:31
Well, again, there's a ton of reasons, but I believe you have to start with how she mixed genres. That is a definitely somebody who is pre, before the writing process spent major time figuring out how am I going to combine genres here. And what did she do, she took fantasy. She took coming of age, she took elements of horror. And she used a sub genre that is very much in British storytelling, which is the Public School Story, meaning private school,

Alex Ferrari 1:43:13
All of her

John Truby 1:43:15
Boarding school based learning school. And the combination of basically coming up with a boarding school for wizards. is just is just when you think about it, of course, why didn't I think of that, because it's just so brilliant. But then you get the elements of the, and I talked about it in the coming of age check, because you get because it's such a unique coming of age story, because you're tracking every year and this kid's coming of age, you're breaking it down into literally literally seven years of his coming of age from 11 to whatever 70 And so you've got you're tracking that which makes it very personal deserves the drama elements again, you tracking that coming of age within a school environment, which is a school that everybody would have loved to go to. Right. And you're doing it with all of the great fantastic stuff that comes with the fantasy form you know, in You I mean but the immense amount of inventiveness that you know we're including the sport that they play Quidditch, you know that an entire sport that she's going to have these people play you know the the Mogul mogul, Mughals, Mughals, Mughals. Yeah the different characters in you know the fantasy character web is among the greatest ever done. The you know, the use in terms of plot of a does something I talk about my story class a lot, which is the use of the, what I call in between characters flip characters, which are characters that appear to be an ally but are really an opponent or they appear to be an opponent and they're really an ally. If she does that would just even one character Snape, that track attracts the plot for seven books?

Alex Ferrari 1:45:07
And you really don't know, you don't until the end is Yeah. Is it for me? Or is he against because sometimes it's for me, sometimes it's against me. And it keeps you like, you know, like, and then people who you who are like, Oh, this professor, he must be he's so nice he must be. And then it's Voldemort in disguise, like,

John Truby 1:45:24
Right. And that's what I was talking about earlier in terms of this is a level of plot excellence that she has, that when you combine it with the right mix of genres, and again, these are genres that have never been mixed before. You combine that with amazing cast of characters, you combine that with the technique of The Three Musketeers, really characters been one of the most popular again, we go back to do ma that the height of plot in the history of story. I mean, it's just just so many things that she's bringing to the table. Not to mention one of the best story worlds ever created, which is story worlds one of the most important trends in the last 20 years and worldwide storytelling in every medium. I mean, it just goes on and on with with what she's done there. And that is why it is the most popular series of books ever written.

Alex Ferrari 1:46:21
It is it is remarkable what she was able to do with that book series. And, and we'll be talking about I mean, there'll be talking about Harry Potter, and a 200 years, 300 years, it will be it'll be just, they'll just keep talking about it forever and ever. Because it's just done so well. And so, like when I first read the first book, I felt like, and I hadn't read a book at that age for a while. And I was like it was I called it literary crack. Because you just, you just couldn't put it down. And it was so apt. That's why I was wanting to kind of deconstruct what she was doing there. Because if we can even get a little bit of that magic on our stuff. It is a man, it definitely elevates you to another level. And the last, the last big author of our time is Stephen King. Yeah, who is a master of horror. Obviously, we I mean, I'm not saying anything that nobody knows, but and there's so many different stories and so many different things, but like just take into stories like Carrie, which was his first book, and it you know, the psychological things going on there. And the themes that he touches on? What how can you how can you kind of deconstruct what he does again, and again and again and again. And he does it so fast? And how many books is even 100?

John Truby 1:47:45
Yeah, I don't know, the guy is incredibly prolific and yet incredibly good. Really, for me, to understand Stephen King, you have to go back to Paul. And what Paul was really crucial for is, he was really the first and in certain ways the greatest obviously not nearly as prolific as Stephen King, but still may be the greatest in terms of taking her with all his very symbolic elements, very mythical elements, and grounding it in the psychological in the personal in the real. And this is like the tell tale heart, the House of Usher on the pit in the pendulum, these these kinds of things, you're getting all the power of the horror form, with making it so personal that the reader can get the terror of it, because that's really what we're talking about horror or terror. That is it is it is a genre that is about one emotion, care. Right? How do I get that? How do I get that or the reader or the viewer? And so what I think King did was he brought that to the, to the modern day. Because she you look at the great stories that he's done. They're very personal, they're very, most of them are there within a family. There is a person with a tremendous psychological flaw, that it's not some weird, otherworldly thing. It's very personal that we all can see. You know, Carrie is an example Pet Cemetery is an example. But he then takes the the foundation of the of the real individual within a family and then creates, he spells it he spins out a greater and greater harm coming from the internal flaw of that person. And that, again, is where you're combining and that's how you transcend in every in every one of these genres. You get the power of the tight the power of of the genre. And genre means type. It's a type of story. And then you combine these highly personal dramatic elements. And that that combination, I've said this in my story class forever. That is this in terms of a single strategy, there is no greater strategy in terms of having both a popular and a critical success, then those then combining those two elements, and King within the horror form, does it better than anybody's ever done?

Alex Ferrari 1:50:30
Now to start wrapping up this because we could keep talking about this for days, even if you just sat here and read your book, it would be nice. I wanted I think one of the main reasons you decided to put this book together was the art the business of selling, genre buying and selling genre and whatever form you're using, whether that be novel, whether that be screenplay without the video game, whether it be anything, can we talk a little bit about the business of buying and selling genre, so people really understand what the marketplace is looking for?

John Truby 1:51:04
Sure. The, as I mentioned, where this really happened, there's before Star Wars and there's after Star Wars, before Star Wars and I talked about in the introductory chapter, the book. The I believe it was the year before two years before Star Wars, JAWS came out. Jaws was a massive worldwide hit. Single genres story done very, really. Okay. Two years later, you have Star Wars. And everybody turned down that script, everyone. Yeah, everyone literally ether. Now, it did this. Basically what this is, is, who is it? Who is the what was the old TV show sci fi TV show, Buck Rogers, Buck Rogers, right. I see. Come on, and nobody's going to come to see this is fine. Nobody wants to watch stuff. No, no, of course. And there was a reason for it. Because sci fi films of the 50s because they didn't have the special effects. There are a lot of times they just look ridiculous, you know. So they had this unintentional come comedic effect. But the what was what they were not seeing was what that was in the script was in the script, in that he was combining all these genres in a seamless way. And that had worldwide effect. Because no matter the culture, I love that story. And I love how plot dense it is. And so what I what I was told, you know, up and up through probably the 80s the perception was in Hollywood, that Hollywood buys and sells movie stars. After Star Wars, and definitely into the 90s. And beyond, especially when you had massive success, like Pixar, no movie stars there. You hear some voices, but they're not successful because of movie stars, and other newer movie stars. Its story star, they're selling the story. That's why it's so it's not a movie star world in Hollywood anymore. It's not certainly not directors, we like to think we know the names of these directors. So what has nothing to do with that? It's and certainly not buying and selling writers, because we're screenwriters are still low person on the totem pole. Right? They're selling great story. And what that means is and what has come to, to me, especially over the last 20 years, is dense plot. And what is the key to them? It's genres. Because genres are platforms that have been tested over centuries, centuries, they've gotten rid of all the drawers, they've gotten rid of all the wasted time. It's pure story. And especially in screenplays, you know, it's all about the bones. It's pure story beat. There's no time for any padding there. And so what genres do is to give you this vehicle for telling a really well plotted story, and at the same time, hooking in a really powerful thing that also has already been worked out. That's what Hollywood that's what the Hollywood money people are looking for. And you don't think they know that you better believe they know that? They know because they've heard all the stories about Star Wars and reading Joseph Campbell and so on and so forth. They know that which is why the most popular story form genre, as I mentioned, is to this day myth because it has worldwide appeal. So typically, least with all the superhero movies, what are you getting, you're getting this story plus action, maybe love but but not even they're not really but you're getting mythic plus action, and you're getting a savior store, which is a sub form of men. So the money guys know that they know that what we're buying, we're in the business of buying and selling genres. And so you need to bring us what a story that is one hits the genre beats two dozen away we've never seen before, because if you can surprise us, you can surprise them.

Alex Ferrari 1:55:16
So is that why Marvel has basically taken over the box office? Because if you pull up Marvel and Top Gun 2022 is not a great year in the box office. There's just not enough product going out to the theatrical experience. So why is that why Marvel has just taken over? I mean, they literally taken over Hollywood. I mean, it's either a Marvel movie, or IV, obviously a big IP, but Marvel is one of those most arguably the biggest IP in cinema today. Is that why they're so successful? Because I mean, comic books have been around superheroes have been around since the 30s. In origins, in the sense that they

John Truby 1:55:59
Didn't know the power of comic books could have in terms of cinematic appeal, right, because they were comic books. But as soon as Star Wars came out, you essentially had a comic book story form with comic book characters, but done really, really well. And Stan Lee, what was the what is the trick to Marvel is that Marvel took the mid form with the superhero character, and brought in drama elements. What do I mean by that? I mean, they had main characters with flaws. And the real distinction here that you have to understand it wasn't a marvel. But this is where their lesson is clear. This is the difference between Superman and Batman. Superman was the first superhero, right, but he's perfect. The only flaw he has is a physical flaw. It's kryptonite. Right? But basically, and of course, it's also based on one of the greatest mistaken identity jokes in the history of story, which is, you know, he puts on a pair of glasses, we can't tell who

Alex Ferrari 1:57:04
Where did Superman go?

John Truby 1:57:07
Oh, but the point is, Superman would love to see his success. And he does all these great things, and he flies and blah, blah, blah. But by far the greater character. And the greater story for him is Batman. Why? Because he has massive internal flaws. And all this story plays off of that. And all of the problems with Justice play off of how far do you go to get justice before becomes revenge. And then because then you have a moral decline. And so, Marvel, if you look at all their characters, they're all whole console. And they all have these internal flaws, which in the old days, is early as the 70s are, Fargo is the 760s 60s and 70s, the the conventional wisdom in Hollywood was, you want a superhero with no flaws, because then they're not unlikable, and therefore, it'll cut into box office. And then all of a sudden, Marvel comes along and shows us and there were other examples of this. But Marvel is probably the best example of it shows us that just the opposite is the case, that when you have a superhero with real flaws, we we can feel this guy, we can understand what they're going through. And it's not just a sequence of stunts, where they fly around and you know, knock somebody across 10 buildings, and so on, so forth. So, so this is, this is why, and Marvel was able to do it not just for one superhero character, they've been able to create an entire universe of characters that interplay this story weave on their films, is amazing. I would love it's very similar to a TV writing room, in terms of how they're doing this. And, and what you what you see the complexity of how these characters are going to interplay with and interact with each other is incredible. But that's how they, they take films and basically hit the same story beats all the time, and still have that kind of success.

Alex Ferrari 1:59:18
Well, I mean, it's going back to Greek mythology, I mean, the gods, literally the gods all had flaws, the human flaws, to make them accessible, because if it was just Zeus and Venus, and everyone was perfect, and we were like, who cares? Yeah, what's interesting is that they have flaws and they in in the storytelling, whoever came up with these stories of Greek mythology, or at the time the religion of of Zeus and and all of that was that they added human elements to it and watching them you know, sleep around and do this thing and there was anger that's what made those those those characters if you're looking at it, historic point of view, so interesting, to watch.

John Truby 1:59:59
That's why That's why I talked about in the book that that Marvel and superhero movies in general, are the modern religion, they are doing exactly the same thing that the Greek gods did 2500 years ago. So there is option there are a collection of hero superheroes with superhero abilities with that also have human all too human flaws, and that combination who then go around and save the world, it's, as I say, it's, it's a sub form of myth and religion, which is the Savior story.

Alex Ferrari 2:00:36
And it's so powerful that there is a universe or a timeline where, let's say, we wipe ourselves out, and only a handful of primitive human people are around and they find the stories of Superman, and Spider Man, they they become gods. And this this, this, this mythology would easily become, or Star Wars, the myth of the Jedi, that's many people consider that a religion, because it's all the beats,

John Truby 2:01:02
It does! It is a religious story. And one of the things that contained in the book is that if you can do if you can get theme to that level, because theme at the highest level is essentially your religion that you're expressing to the audience. It's a collection of stories for how to live. And so if you can get your theme to that level without appearing to be religious, there is nothing more powerful than that. You have to hit the jackpot.

Alex Ferrari 2:01:32
And that's what all of these stories that we've been talking about have hit in one way, shape or form. I mean, the matrix and Shawshank and the storyteller is telling you their perspective on how to live life. And it was George Lucas said it very easily. Back in the day, he said, stories are the meat and potatoes of our society. That's how we, that's how we transfer over the moral code that we live. We live by this. And that's why he wanted to create something like Star Wars that passed along this insanely powerful moral code. And he wasn't hidden about that, by the way, it was hidden with all the flashiness in the spectacle.

John Truby 2:02:16
Right!

Alex Ferrari 2:02:18
But it's pretty clear. Yeah, I mean, the Jedi said, AI

John Truby 2:02:20
The Jedi is a religion, it may not be a very defined one, but it is very definitely a religion. It's it leans more toward an Eastern religion than say, a western region. No question. But the point is, that is that that combination of mixed genres, execution of the story beats, and the fact that is theoretically, a powerful religion, you know, may the force be with you who the hell on this world doesn't know that line? So the point is, that combination is unbeatable. And George Lucas, show the world how that would be in his defined storytelling. From then on.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:02
John, when is this insane book going to come out? So people can buy this book, start reading it, and, and spend a good part of their life reading it because it's pages. But where can they find when is this book coming out when it's going to be available to the public

John Truby 2:03:18
The best way, the best way to get it is to go to this website anatomyofgenres.com.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:27
And now have links to Amazon and

John Truby 2:03:29
It has links to all of the bookstores, wherever you want it. The book comes is officially out on the 29th of November. But if you would like to get your preorder in again, go to that site anatomy of genres.com. And you can make your order now and they'll send it to you as soon as available.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:49
And what and where can people find out more about you your other book anatomy of story and the courses you teach and seminars and all the stuff that you do?

John Truby 2:03:57
That's at truby.com truby.com and it has all the information you need.

Alex Ferrari 2:04:04
John, it is been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I mean, seriously, we're gonna I want to have like some spin off episodes where we just sit down and break down Shawshank matrix, Fight Club. I'm just all my favorite movies. We're just gonna sit there and wear them down to see what makes these things tick so beautifully. But I appreciate you, man so much for everything you're doing for storytellers around the world. But I think in many ways in this conversation, it I think the conversation transcended a bit in the sense that this is more about not not as much, only about not only about story, but about the self, and about our journey through life and the power. The stories have to help us along that path and the responsibilities of storytellers that we have, and you've given us a great toolbox to go into to really understand how to do that at a very high level. So, John, my friend, thank you so much for coming. back on the show, and we will do that other episode one day soon.

John Truby 2:05:03
Alex, it's always a blast talking with you, you're the best in the business. I will talk with you about any film you want anytime you want. There's nothing more fun for me to do. So thank you so much appreciate it.

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Sam Mendes Scripts Collection: Screenplay Downloads

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Samuel Alexander Mendes was born on August 1, 1965 in Reading, England, UK to parents James Peter Mendes, a retired university lecturer, and Valerie Helene Mendes, an author who writes children’s books. Their marriage didn’t last long, James divorced Sam’s mother in 1970 when Sam was just 5-years-old. Sam was educated at Cambridge University and joined the Chichester Festival Theatre following his graduation in 1987. Afterwards, he directed Judi Dench in “The Cherry Orchard”, for which he won a Critics Circle Award for Best Newcomer. He then joined the Royal Shakespeare Company, where he directed such productions as “Troilus and Cressida” with Ralph Fiennes and “Richard III”.

In 1992, he became artistic director of the reopened Donmar Warehouse in London, where he directed such productions as “The Glass Menagerie” and the revival of the musical “Cabaret”, which earned four Tony Awards including one for Best Revival of a Musical. He also directed “The Blue Room” starring Nicole Kidman.

In 1999, he got the chance to direct his first feature film, American Beauty (1999). The movie earned 5 Academy Awards including Best Picture and Best Director for Mendes, which is a rare feat for a first-time film director.

Below are all the screenplays available online. If you find any of his missing screenplays please leave the link in the comment section.

When you are done reading take a listen to Apple and Spotify’s #1 Screenwriting Podcast The Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, with guest like Oscar® Winner Eric Roth, James V. Hart, David Chase, John August, Oliver Stone and more.

(NOTE: For educational and research purposes only).

AMERICAN BEAUTY (1999)

Directed by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

ROAD TO PERDITION (2000)

Directed and Screenplay by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

JARHEAD (2005)

Directed by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

REVOLUTIONARY ROAD (2008)

Directed and Screenplay by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

SKYFALL (2012)

Directed by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

SPECTRE (2015)

Directed by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

1971 (2019)

Directed by Sam Mendes – Read the screenplay!

 

 

BPS 253: How to Attach a Bankable Movie Star to Your Indie Film with Steven Luke

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Today on the show we have writer, producer, director, actor, and Filmtrepreneur Steven Luke. Steven and I discuss how he attaches bankable movie stars like Dolph Lundgren, Mickey Rourke, Chuck Liddell, James Cromwell, Thomas Jane, Sam Worthington, Tom Berenger, Ron Perlman, and Billy Zane to his independent films. We also discuss his misadventures in film distribution, how he presells his films and if he actually makes any money with film distributors.

Steven also has a Filmtrepreneur mind when it comes to his film productions. He has found his niche, war films. Understanding his niche market, he uses the films he produces to advertise his company Man the Line. It is the internet’s number one source of recreating war!

Man the Line is a small South Dakota business offering original military and quality reproduction uniforms and headgear for collectors, reenactors, and film productions. By doing this, Steven has created additional revenue streams for himself by using his films. This is the Filmtrepreneur way.

His most recent works include “Souvenirs” starring Academy Award nominee James Cromwell and “The Deep End,” for which he earned a Best Actor recognition at the 2011 Fischgaard Short Film Competition.

Steven’s work in the short film Paper People’ has also earned him the Best Actor in a Short film for the 2012 Best Actors in a Film Festival. Steven utilizes his skills as a historic military technical adviser and supplier for the motion picture and television industries when not in front of the camera.

Enjoy my conversation with Steven Luke.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 2:24
I'd like to welcome the show Steven Luke, man, how are you brother?

Steven Luke 3:50
I'm doing excellent staying. COVID-19 free up here in South Dakota. So

Alex Ferrari 3:58
Yeah, you don't have too many. You're not like LA. You don't have it's or New York.

Steven Luke 4:04
I mean, we literally have like the population of like, one high rise building in New York. So we're pretty pretty safe out here. For the most part.

Alex Ferrari 4:12
Are you are you staying quarantine? Are you?

Steven Luke 4:16
I mean, I guess this is gonna be recorded. So yes, I'm very quarantine safe. Secure in a bunker and, you know, old missile silo from the 60s? Yes, no, we're, we're kind of Yes, we kind of have, you know, doing the social distancing. But trying to like is a little bit kind of like normal here. So,

Alex Ferrari 4:37
Got it. Got it. It's fair enough. Yeah, you're a little bit more spread out than the big cities. takes two months to get to us. So I'm sure in August. That's where you're gonna have some stuff going up. Well, um, thank you for being on the show, man. Before we get started, how did you get into the film business?

Steven Luke 4:53
Okay, that's no, that's a fun story. So I think like with everyone else, you start off when You're young, and you kind of just the magic of cinema hits you. And you get really excited to, you know, see films, and you want to tell stories. And I think that's kind of how I wanted to get involved. And, you know, wanting to tell stories, and you know, just kind of progressively working up to that point throughout my life and career and how to just kind of, you know, tell stories and make movies and getting bigger and better.

Alex Ferrari 5:29
Very cool. So you were bitten by that bug, basically.

Steven Luke 5:33
And you can't get rid of it. No, it's, it's, you know, it's like that artists lifestyle, right. So like, if I wasn't doing this, or I mean, whatever I'm doing, I'm sure I'd be doing something artistic. So

Alex Ferrari 5:51
No, but you also got into the acting side of the business, as well.

Steven Luke 5:55
Yes, yeah. So I always, you know, I do act. What's fun about the film business is it really is a business. And there's lots of pieces that come come to that. So the acting stuff that I do, I consider that usually, like my art, like, it's more of an art form. To me, if I come in and act, it kind of gives me a chance to dive into a character and develop them and be someone else. And that's very, it's fun for me to do that. Some of the other parts of the film making experience are more business related or more kind of world building, or writing or something like that. But the acting is, is an art to me. And it's, it's always kind of fun to get to jump in someone else's shoes.

Alex Ferrari 6:37
But did you start off as an actor and then moved into producing? Or did you start off as producing and moved into acting?

Steven Luke 6:45
I think I mean, acting, you know, in high school, you know, you do plays and stuff. The acting was kind of always kind of that, what you want to do, I kind of realized really, right off the bat, right, as I kind of graduate high school that I wanted, that I could act and produce, those are my two things that I enjoy doing the most. So I kind of found myself, when I produce things, trying to find, you know, pieces, you know, is a part that I can play to kind of kind of have some fun with it as well, because producing for those that know is a little stressful.

Alex Ferrari 7:18
Bit a bit a bit, and you've got to wear like 1000 different hats, and

Steven Luke 7:23
You got to know the industry really well. So it's like when you get to act, you know, you kind of can just one character and then no one bugs you either, you know, like I don't want to disturb him when he's in character. Like, yes, yes. So leave me alone. Until, until that's over, then you can deal with all the craziness.

Alex Ferrari 7:40
It's fun, because I've always been, I've always worn 1000 hats in any of my productions. It's just the nature of what I do. I'm a jack of all trades. So when I get to just do one thing, it seems so light. Like,

Steven Luke 7:54
Definitely does, well, you sit there and you're like, like twiddling is like yeah, it's like to be doing for bed should be helping someone. So

Alex Ferrari 8:03
Yeah, from from my really micro budget films where I'm doing a lot to where I'm working on a, you know, on a series or something like that, where I have a full blown crew. And like, I don't have to worry about lighting. I could just tell someone to go light. It's just kind of, what am I gonna do? What am I doing here? I don't. I'm waiting. 30 minutes for the lighting setup to set up. I'll be like, what do I the actors are ready? Like, I don't know. It's crazy. Yeah, I guess I'll sit down. I guess I guess I'll relax. I guess. I don't know. I'll have a coke. So then how did you get into you know, producing full features, because I saw you did a lot of shorts prior to kind of to get your your feet wet. How did you get into doing full blown features?

Steven Luke 8:46
Yeah, so I yes, I always think it was important to do some short films, tests, test your craft, do some, you know, make some mistakes, learn a lot. To me in shorts, were kind of a great way to do film school. I never I didn't go to film school, I took more of the business side of things than got up, you know, kind of when I was in college got a business degree because that was what I felt was going to be more helpful to me just in terms of what I kind of wanted to pursue. But yeah, short films a great way to kind of hone your craft. And then you want to make that leap to a feature film, if you know your goal. And there's lots of goals, obviously. But if you want to try to tell bigger and better stories, if you want to try to make money, I mean, relatively speaking, that you kind of the feature film game is where you need to be. And naturally, that's kind of the next step that a filmmaker should try to pursue. It has its own I mean, making a feature film and a short film, they almost they almost have the exact same challenges and go through the exact same steps you just our feature film takes is longer days. So it naturally was that next step that that one takes.

Alex Ferrari 9:58
So one of the reasons I wanted you on the show is because a lot of the lot of the movies that you've produced have been with, you know, named talent talent that actually brings money to the table. And, and I always wanted to have someone on the show that has produced these kinds of films, worked with talent like Dolph Lundgren or Ron Perlman or Mickey Rourke, Tom Berenger, Billy Zane, these are like kind of go to character actors who have have a following and also have a value of monetary value in distribution and overseas. So I wanted to kind of dig into the how you do this. And I also want to take away a lot of these myths and illusions that a lot of filmmakers have, like, Oh, I could never afford, you know, adopt, you know, Dolph Lundgren, or Mickey Rourke, or, or Ron Perlman, or these kind of actors, because they must be billions and billions of dollars to to get, and I've been in the industry long enough to know that that's not true. But I wanted to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. So how do you go about first of all attaching named talent like this?

Steven Luke 11:03
Right? Okay. So I think the I'm a big proponent of this always, the first step with named talent is your script. Now, obviously, that kind of complain a lot of key points with a lot of things. But if you have a script, that, obviously is what you feel like a winner, something you enjoy a story you want to tell, that is definitely like the number one way to get talent to say, yes, they've got to like that script. And, and so kind of hand in hand with that the role that you might be offering them, it has to be a role that, you know, like, you see that person, you know, like, okay, like, take, take, Dolph London, like Dolph will have fun with this role. are, you know, so like, when you come to those towns that and sometimes that might mean you adapt your role a little bit for the specific person that you're going after, but like, they have to like, Okay, if they read this, they've never done that character before. Or maybe it's a character that they enjoy doing. I think really tailoring your story and the role that you're going after, before you present it to them. is, is, is vital. Because if it's just generic, you know, office worker, you know, they're going to pass on that.

Alex Ferrari 12:20
But unless, unless the paycheck is extremely high.

Steven Luke 12:24
I mean, that's gonna take probably double what maybe they would actually cost to pay me that. Like, why would you?

Alex Ferrari 12:32
Why would you bring Duff longer does the office worker, unless it's a comedy? And then yes,

Steven Luke 12:37
If you have the budget to do it. And that probably actually would be hilarious. Dolf is a great guy, too. I mean, he's a fantastic actor, and super smart, man.

Alex Ferrari 12:51
No, I hear he's like, he's like, genius level. He's like, really, really smart. Even when he did The Expendables, they would make jokes about it in the movie that like, what do you have, like a rocket scientist? Like,he is like, literally, he,

Steven Luke 13:04
He is that smart. And so like, when you first kind of meet him, you when you talk to him, it? I don't wanna say it throws you for a loop. But, you know, most people grew up with, I will break you. And when he talks to you, you're like, geez, this guy's way smarter than me. Right? Not like that. I'm filming. You're just, it's just, it's a fun story. Okay, so back to so you got your script, you got your, you got your role for these guys. So probably that, like, they always talk about, like the gatekeepers that come that are in Hollywood, yes. Or the talent, it really as their managers and agents, I mean, manager, agent, they guard those guys and all their clients, which is that that's what they get paid to do. So we try to probably the best way then to like, you know, to get an agent manager, okay, you know, having a producer that maybe has worked with them in the past, having, you know, maybe a sales rep that has worked with them in the past. You know, personal contact, emailing them straight up on IMDB, sometimes even can get you to the door. I mean, I hate to say that, but like you're only having to sit, but they read, they read, I mean, they have an assistant, they process that stuff. So that doesn't necessarily mean you know, you're going to get darklands in your film if you just email them with an offer because they don't work that way. Or it doesn't work that way. But if you have a level of if you're attached to someone that maybe has worked with them, the legitimacy of that offer of the script and the role and maybe the price tag that you're offering them, it they they will take it to their client, that they're they're required to take those things to their client if they feel it's actually a legitimate thing. And so by having someone and I'm just going to use like me, for example, like I've worked with Delft, London, you know, for me to maybe put up Like a filmmaker, in touch with his manager and saying, like, Hey, I think that, you know, that, you know, x y&z wants to, you know, it's interesting having dealt with the role, you know, I'll let you, I'll let him present it over to you, they will take that as a sign that I've vetted that person, I wouldn't be doing that. Unless it was a real thing, just in terms of of real because if I do that,

Alex Ferrari 15:25
You're Donnie Brasco in it, you're, he's a good fella.

Steven Luke 15:29
This is not like a real thing. I might not never get to work with that agent ever again. So that's why it's such a big, you know, it's a big deal to be able to be, you know, when that happens, they'll take you seriously. But I'm not saying that they don't just email them straight up doesn't work.

Alex Ferrari 15:46
Real quick. So let me let me jump on that real quick at one question. And this is this is a big question when it comes to talent. And I've heard both sides of the story, I would love to hear your thoughts. If you have a personal relationship or personal connection to the talent, do you bypass their management and talk to them directly? Or make an offer to them directly? If you have a direct connection? Now, if you're good friends, it's one thing? Yeah, yeah. If your buddies, it's one thing, but let's say my producer, like I know somebody who knows the actor personally. And I'm like, Hey, you look, I'll make you an associate producer, if you make the introduction to me, and then I go have coffee with Dolf. And then, like, Hey, I really like your thing, and I make him the offer directly. And then I've completely bypassed, I've just ended up just throwing out the scenario. Hold on before you say now. And you like talk to them and like, hey, look, you know, like to offer it to you directly. A lot of people will do that for PA, which, in my opinion to you shouldn't offer them directly, unless it's a conversation. And like, I always say, when I'm working with talent at that level, I go, do you want me to submit a formal offer to your agent, or manager? And sometimes they're like, no, what do you want? What do you got? And then they'll just want to negotiate with you right there. There's those those that that that talent? Well,

Steven Luke 17:12
Yes, I would say like, if you're in a situation like that, that that, I mean, they're open to it, that that might be different, I would say, in my opinion, if you were in that situation, where you're like, talking to the actor, and they're loving the role, you know, like just offering role and having them say, I love this, I want to do this is like a win. And then I would automatically go to Alright, great, I will get in touch with your agent and manager and work out the details. Because at the end of the day, you still got to work out the details with the agent manager, because there's not only is that mean? Oh, is that their price, there's their green m&ms that they need, there's their flights, you know, I mean, like, there's an entourage that might have to come. So like, you're still gonna have to work with the agent manager on the deal memo. And so you should at least then that way the agent manager feels, I don't wanna say useful because they're very useful, but that's their job. So respecting them right off the bat and saying like, hey, great. Dolph loves this role. Let me go work it out with agent manager, they will instantly I don't want to say like, you have an ally, but you won't make them mad. Because agents and managers do not like to be circumnavigated. They don't like it. And I can, you know, as much as like, sometimes you wish, you could just go right to it. And you can sometimes when you know the talent, you know, get them excited about the role that's already a win for you. Because you know, that they're going to want to do it, they want to do it, and then go back to that, you know, Agent manager, that way everyone stays happy. And then the actors not having to deal with any you know, the other than the money the other the other things that entail that agent manager can be the good guy, bad guy, good cop, bad cop. You know, there was a it's a it's definitely an industry and I had an eight a manager tell me this. So just you know, like always like, great, you know, the talent. They want to do the role then just come back to me and keep it keeping that line Hollywood very much like

Alex Ferrari 19:15
Yeah, there was a there's a story of a couple filmmakers I knew that were they bum rushed an actor at a film festival and got them literally in the back alleys an Oscar nominated actor. And and the actor was cool. He was like, tell me pitch me and he showed him like this, the sizzle reel, and the actor was very taken by their story. And this actor does not do an independent like he's only studio, but for whatever godforsaken reason, he fell in love with the story and wanted to do it. And he was at over at CIA and CIA did everything to torpedo that deal, like everything, but that

Steven Luke 19:57
Those guys did mean what the thing that those guys got, they knew the actor wanted to do it. So ca lost all those playing cards now they might not have been happy about it. But like that's, that is the one nice thing if you can get around them and you just find out if they want to do it, then you got right, you got to,

Alex Ferrari 20:16
But then afterwards that the actor just turned to their ages like, Look, I don't care what you say I'm doing this. So let's make this happen. And now and that's but that's a risk. you're rolling the dice when you do something like that. That's extremely risky.

Steven Luke 20:30
An actor in a back alley and corner him. I mean, literally, I would do it but

Alex Ferrari 20:36
Right. And they were just they were young, independent filmmakers. They weren't like, you know, seasoned professional season.

Steven Luke 20:41
Not that sometimes. That's literally I mean, you get lucky like that. I'm just lucky. He everything the stars lined up. And that worked out great for him. So I definitely not opposed to having that happen. Because sometimes when you're trying to get your film made, I mean, you got to you got to play hardball. The old that is hardball, man.

Alex Ferrari 21:05
Absolutely. Absolutely. I see you we're continuing. Alright, so now. So what's the next part of the process as far as attaching these guys?

Steven Luke 21:12
So let's story script, contacted agent manager, you know, so then you're you're wanting to it's the it's the money, you know, sometimes it's a lot of this talent, it really does come down to you know, they're gonna assume after they read the script, that they're gonna, okay, this is a worthwhile story script. I can enjoy this character, then it really comes down to their rate, you know, what are they willing to do it for? And it really is, I mean, oh, and let me back up because it is money, but like it like, Okay, well, who's who's who's maybe Who am I acting along with? Could matter to like, who's the director, the director? What's the budget of the film? Like, do I have to fly to Taiwan? Because that makes a big deal to them like, or can I just wake up and roll out of my bed and go 30 minutes over to Pasadena and shoot and then come back. I mean, that's what makes it huge people to do that for them. So like, accommodating them along with that offer with like, Hey, we're going to be you know, 10 minutes away from your house. So all you have to do is just get out of bed and woke up and go, we'll come pick you up. And you know, sometimes like literally, that if the money's good, and doing that and be like, well, I don't really care who I'm in with, and who the director is a day,

Alex Ferrari 22:29
Yeah, it's a couple days, and I'm home, back home to sleep on my bed. So one day, or two days, or whatever it is. So that's the thing that a lot of filmmakers, especially young producers don't understand is that if you have, you know, Dolf, let's say, or Mickey in a roll, and you have them on the cover of the poster, it doesn't mean that you shot them for three or four weeks, you know, you could shoot them out in 234 days or less, depending on what how big their part is. But you can shoot all their scenes out quickly. and affordably. Because if you tried to hire them for three or four weeks, it wouldn't be it would be cost prohibitive.

Steven Luke 23:08
Yeah. And they don't do that either. I mean, they they wouldn't, they wouldn't sign on to doing a three four week thing, unless it was a big studio or per bag or a studio are a big project. If you kind of live in that world of a week or less weeks, and go to court coordinate the character around those those scenes. I mean, a good rule of thumb, I think, right now with distributors is, you know, they need about 12 to 15 minutes of screen time, at least out of those guys, which is about the equivalent about 15 pages. So if you can get 50 I mean, how quickly can you shoot 15 pages? Now, I'll tell you this, like, you know, usually, I mean, I've knocked out an actor, and with 15 pages in one day, oh, yeah. Oh, it's doable. But I will tell you this with the talent, like they will not be happy about that, per se. I mean, they're not gonna be angry. Yeah. But it could take cue cards, and it could take, you know, like hiding their lines in you know, spots, or they can just do their thing, and they'll take your

Alex Ferrari 24:10
Earbuds don't forget the earbud I forget about the earbuds. I literally had a whole a whole VFX job once that I this was an Oscar winning actor who was later in his career. And he had earbuds because he couldn't remember his lines. And we had to digitally remove all the earbuds in all his shots because it was a period of peace. Sure. I mean, it's insane.

Steven Luke 24:38
Yeah, I mean, you. I shouldn't say you would think the actors would come prepared, they usually are prepared, but you know, if you can just get them there. I mean, they know they know, you know, a lot of the actor, you know, like when they're named actors. They understand that it's got to be my name and my face on the poster that sells it. So who cares if I know my lines, I mean, that's not saying that they don't know that but like, you know, you got to accommodate them. Sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 25:00
So this is the big the big question, you know, can we discuss the cost? And now we're not going to call anybody out directly, we're not going to go well Dolphus this much. And then you know, Mickey is this much nothing like that. But can we talk about a range? You know, per day? Because I have, I've worked with certain actors, and I know of prices of certain actors, who are name actors. But what is a range price? Because I think people still filmmakers still think like, Oh, I can't afford that guy, even if it's for three or four days? And you'd be surprised that you might?

Steven Luke 25:34
Yeah, well, I think you're looking at and I don't mind saying these things. Because I think they're, they're stuff that the, you know, the industry should know. And I think, you know, I mean, the more kind of money that can go, like, with projects that can go to actors, I think, always the better. You know, so let's talk about, so let's talk about money. So maybe, let's put a range of say $50,000, to up to $300,000. That is your, that is your budget range. And you might get an actor of a name caliber for one day to eight days, or seven days, seven, let's say seven days. So, I mean, that and to say that, that's, obviously there's a lot of factors and a lot of ranges, that that can play into that. But that's really not it is a lot of money. But for those guys, you know, that that could secure the the rest of your budget, and that could propel you know, your film into going to that next budget level. And like, like, I'm not trying to get down on any micro budget filmmaking, but because I love I mean, that's like, my forte, I love, like, how can we not do it the cheapest, but like, I mean, jeez, you get caught?

Alex Ferrari 26:55
Yeah, get the costume

Steven Luke 26:57
With those micro budgets, you're gonna hone your craft. And if you want to try to, you know, those stars will automatically jump your film out of a micro budget capability, just because of how much they cost, if you were to try to pursue them, just in terms of like, you know, let's say you spend an actor $100,000 on an actor, well, you might have an additional 20 to $30,000, other costs, you know, with different crew lighting, you know, green man's, you know, you should report that there are those days that you're shooting with him. So that's the, that's the fact that you got to you got to play, but I feel like it's it's a, you know, with filmmaking and movies, to go to that next level, and to have named talent, you know, it's a, it's a, that's what it will take, in order to take that kind of next baby step, you know, in terms of like, maybe then moving on to having a studio or distributor, you know, trust you with maybe more money, and with more name, talent, you know, and that next step, and if they can see that, you know, hey, this film with this talent, you know, these guys made this and it turned out great, or whatever, it was profitable, you know, different things depend on what you're trying to do, it will help you just kind of take those steps in a filmmakers journey, if you want to pursue that. So I highly recommended, recommend, you know, all the filmmakers listening to this, you know, that can help really be the next little baby step for you, in order to take the bigger leap to bigger budgets, and, and bigger, you know, productions. That's not to say, you know, there's always that wildcard, you get lucky and stars, new jump, which is every everyone's dream, but you know, baby steps sometimes,

Alex Ferrari 28:46
But you have to look at it as an ROI. So like, if you're, if you're spending, you know, $100,000 on a talent that could justify a $2 million budget, without that talent, you're looking at a $500,000 budget, you know, for the same movie, or less or much, much less, you know, so it all ranges you have to just kind of think about it. So you know, if you have Mickey or Dolf in your movie, you've you've got the movie sold almost done in pre sales and we'll talk about pre sales in a minute but it's almost sold automatically because of their because there's an automatic market for that kind of talent involved. Now as far as ranges is concerned, I've heard you know 50 to 300 1000s of good rains but I know guys who will show up for five grand a day and 10 grand a day and and if they go oh for a week, give me 25 grand and we're good. And they might not be at the level of the 50 100 200,000 but they start peppering the cast and you can it can you talk a little bit about the peppering of the cast where you get these known faces, they might not be box office draws, but their faces. One of the big ones was Trey Hill for the longest time, and now he's Danny. Danny, I've gotten to work with Danny, I've always wanted to try but isn't it by law that he has to be in every movie? I mean, that's law now, isn't it? I mean, he has to be in every movie him and Sam Jackson has to fight by? I think it has. You're right. I think it has I think I think the Supreme Court is checking on that right now. But I think it Sam Jackson and or Danny Trejo have to be in a movie. That's the law, I think.

Steven Luke 30:27
But I, if I remember, right, the law also states they can't be in the same movie together, otherwise the world will be

Alex Ferrari 30:33
the case that space time continuum explodes, I understand completely. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. But um, no, but I remember Danny before, you know, machete, and he was before he became a leading man, he was the character actor, and he wasn't. I mean, he's literally in everything. You know, he just shows up. It's fascinating to watch Danny. And he's the first to say he's like, oh, did you have a check? I'm there. And can I bring my typos? And he has this. And that's not racist. He has his own taco company. Because Trey has tacos here in LA. But it was fascinating. So how can you talk a bit about the value of peppering some of these more character actor faces in a movie, which kind of also gives you a little bit of weight when trying to go after a bigger fish to like, Oh, look at all these other guys who've been in a million things?

Steven Luke 31:37
Yeah. So I would say, if I was approaching, like a film, where we're going to pepper in some, some, you know, decent, you know, some some recognizable faces. So maybe TV actors? Yes, you'd want to try to get as many of those guys as possible. One of the nice things that if you were to pursue that route, okay, yeah, that will help. I always, it's always hard to say like, and then for your next project, but like maybe bigger talent, that you know, for a future work that you do when they look back and they say, Okay, well, we've got all these things. Let's see what they've done. They've Okay, well, they've worked with Danny, and they've worked with this. They're like, Okay, well, they, they've, they've worked with some industry people. So sometimes, you know, establishing yourself of being able to work with industry, people will help propel that next year also be a little bit of a baby step for you to kind of if you want to make bigger things. Now, I'm peppering guys in I would say, Yes, I mean, like the more recognizable faces, you know, obviously, the better. I would also throw this in with a caveat, like, really do your homework and research, because there might be like, Danny Trejo, I'm not super familiar with, like, I don't want to put like actors as if they have values. But I know Danny trails super popular in the United States. So like, you kind of get a distributor to bite on having a Danny Trejo in the movie.

Alex Ferrari 33:02
Oh, with that said that, Can I throw a caveat in there real quick? Sure. Yeah, there was a movie, there was a there was a movie that I worked on, which had Eric Roberts in it. And, and Eric is is the face and distributors generally liked Eric Roberts. And do still, unfortunately, Eric did 25 movies that year. So when so when the director went to go sell the producer went to go sell his movie, every distributor, like I already got three Eric Roberts movies this year, I don't need yours. So there has to be a balance as well. You know, so

Steven Luke 33:34
I think that that's why it ties into like, if you're gonna pepper it with, with with faces, you know, really do your homework, right? Because you don't want to have, I'm not trying to put down Eric rabbits, but like you said, you don't want to be in the season where there's 25 of his movies already.

Alex Ferrari 33:49
Right? He's losing his value. He's diluting his value, losing his value. So

Steven Luke 33:53
Just you know, do if you're going to pepper and use some different faces, which can work great and maybe be easier. Do your do your homework, do your research. You know, don't you know, don't be afraid to call like producers from other films with talent that you're looking at. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I would love to have someone email or message me. And so I can tell Mickey Rourke stories. I don't mean that like in a bad way. But like, I can like, Listen, this is what you need to do. This is what you you shouldn't do, you know, try to do this. Like, I mean, I feel like, you know, when you're in the filmmaking community, especially the independence, you know, we all have war stories and battle scars, and to be able to help the other the next person like, avoid, you know, like, Okay, well, this is a pitfall Try not to do that if at all possible.

Alex Ferrari 34:43
You know, we're Lieutenant Dan, we're Lieutenant Dan, the new privates we're Lieutenant Dan, the privates are coming in. It's like, Don't salute me. Get down, do this. You're gonna get burned over here. Like that's who we are. That's what we try to do.

Steven Luke 34:56
And like a lot of producers, a lot of us are very much Like that, so give him give those give those guys a call shoot him an email message though, they'll shoot you straight because you know, at the end of the day, it you know, the younger filmmakers, like you don't wanna say like who you help could be the next whoever but like it really could be beneficial you know, to just relay some information and and because you paid for it and blood sweat and tears so you know don't let it die Don't let it sink with the ship. So that's my thing.

Alex Ferrari 35:26
So with that said, Can you tell some Mickey Rourke stories or Dolf longer and stories that are, you know, you know, appropriate for the show, and that won't blacklist you from the industry?

Steven Luke 35:38
Oh, boy, let's let's okay. Okay, so a quick Mickey Rourke story. So, one of the things when Mickey work first showed up on my set, he, or at least when he showed up on our shooting location, he arrived late at night and me and my other producing partner Went, went, went to go meet him and we we kind of we brought his costumes and everything and Mickey Rourke, he enters the hotel, and he looks right at us. And he walked right on past us, right on passes and his assistant. Yeah, we were like, Did he did he not did because we had the costume. So we assumed like, okay, we must fit the film. I mean, we said that we were going to be there with the film. And you know, like, well, maybe he didn't see us. I don't know what's going on. And later, his like, assistant came out of the hotel and just said, like, Look, we need the costumers here. We don't want to see the producers like, oh, okay, well, okay, well, okay, fine. And so we, we get the customers in there, they're doing their thing. And later on, like, I don't remember if is later that night, early the morning, we find out like, um, Mickey would not like to have the producers on set. If Mickey sees the producers again, he's gonna punch him in the face. And we're like, not leave his trailer. And we're like, okay, so well. So like, literally the whole day when he was shooting, we were hiding in like a back room. And I, you know, I was a little bit younger than so I like, as an actor in the movie, if I screwed up my face, and I went in with the grips to go meet him. So I met Mark as a grip on my own film production. So that way, I didn't get punched in the face, or you have him not leave his trailer, that

Alex Ferrari 37:19
You hear stories about actors not leaving trailers, and, you know, being difficult sometimes on set, and you hear these mythical stories, you're like, this can't really be true. And, and I go, No, no, it can't.

Steven Luke 37:34
Now, to back that up Mickey was he got through the day, we got all this stuff shot, he seemed he was working great with the director, working great cast members. I don't know if it was more of like, just, you know, sometimes actors they like to say or do things just to see if they can get away with it, or just whatever. But you know, as the producer, you don't want to take that chance, hey, I didn't want my face punched. And B, I didn't want him to not leave his set their trailer. So

Alex Ferrari 38:01
Let me ask you, on a producing standpoint, just on a legal standpoint, if I'm paying somebody half a million quarter million dollars, and they do not perform the service, I hired them to do meaning like they are doing things that are creating havoc or not coming out of their trailer, I always wondered, there has to be some sort of legal ramification for this kind of behavior, right? Or if you don't want to answer that, please don't i don't want to put you in a bad spot.

Steven Luke 38:29
I don't know. I don't think that's a bad spot. I mean, obviously, you have a contract with them. And there's obviously some stipulations. And one of them primarily has been that they have to add

Alex Ferrari 38:40
Should I mean, to be fair,

Steven Luke 38:42
You know, that's where it kind of can get really great. Like, if they show up to set and they do a scene or two, and then they start making demands, and they don't get the day done. I mean, they're not, they can get really great. I mean, it really can with some of these things, like, you know, can you you can't put, you know, like, I'll just say for instance, like state law might dictate that or wherever you're shooting might say, like, Listen, you you, you can only work our normal eight hour day or sag rules. They only are an eight hours a day. They might do eight hours and then say hey, I'm out. I did my day. So, I mean, you just I've never experienced that myself where an actor has has not, you know, they're more, you know, if you treat them well. With respect, with respect, you're doing everything that you can in order to, I don't want to say accommodate them, but you know, just like just like they want to work, they want to work. And they know they know the situation of like what you know, like maybe you have them for three days. They know this, and they have so much they got to do and they're more than willing, if you if you treat them with respect, if you're accommodating if you're you know, going out of your way to you know, make sure that they have a good time just in terms of like experience set, you know, they will go that extra mile for you. Because they they are those I mean, they're the artists they want to they want their work to be good.

Alex Ferrari 40:14
Did you want to look? So did you ever hear the story of Marlon Brando on the on the set of the score with dinero and Ed Norton?

Steven Luke 40:22
Oh, I want to say that I have but please tell it

Alex Ferrari 40:26
Because what's Marlon Brando is legendary for being difficult. I mean, even the Godfather, he was being difficult, because he was already Marlon Brando when he did the Godfather. And he was on this movie called the score which was directed by Frank Oz. Now for many people who don't know who Frank Oz is he's very well known director but he also is known for being the voice of Yoda. And also being the voice of not the voice but he puppet puppeted up Kermit the Frog, he where he became up he came up as I'm up, I'm up at you know, a puppeteer. And and Marlon refused, refused to even let him be on the set. Now, when those two forces like the director, and Marlon Brando, that like in the Marlins, like I'm not acting if that puppet director and you know, expletive expletive, is there I'm not going to work so De Niro had to direct Brando on the set. While poor Frank Oz was in a trailer. radioing directions to Robert, while they would leave and like you're like and Roberts, like, come on Marlon. He's like, No, I'm not gonna work. Bobby, I'll work with you, Ed, I'll work with you. I can't work with this puppet director. I did this puppet guy with this frog frog effort. And he was saying, but I heard this story. And he just like and I've heard it multiple times from different people you just like those are the that's where this stuff happens is where these myths start coming like people becoming difficult. But also what you do that once this is a small business and everyone hears it. And then the next so you know when you're Marlon Brando, Marlon Brando, like what do you what are you gonna do? It's Marlon Brando. But you know, when you're an actor, you know, a paycheck actor, meaning that you've got to work to keep the bills common, he can't be pulling that kind of stuff for the most part.

Steven Luke 42:30
Yeah, and for the most part, they don't bite right. If you have a situation like that you find yourself in with with like Marlon Brando type of situation, you got to pick your battles. And at the end of the day, at least in terms of a producer, like you just got to get their footage, you got to get them shot, you got to get their face on camera, get their scenes, much, you know, I mean, like, just and, and they know that, you know, the actors know that. So, you know, they're being difficult because they know, you got to get them shot. So admission, say they're being difficult just because of that. But, you know, you got to pick your battles. And sometimes you got to, you know, you got to have Robert DeNiro directing with?

Alex Ferrari 43:10
No, I mean, do you find it that a lot of named actors, and seasoned actors in general will test, the director will test the production? We'll test to see how far they can push some things sometimes just to see what happens. I

Steven Luke 43:29
would say, I would say yes. So always be prepared for that. But at the same time, like they're doing next, they want to see how cool how quality you are, like, are you do when they're under pressure? Or is this like a real thing? You know, so don't don't, you know, be hesitant to speak your mind? And, and, you know, challenge them right back? Potentially not like in a bad way. No, no, no, absolutely like a test every once in a while. So be prepared for that. But you know, really, for the most part, like right off the bat, to to avoid, like the testing is to like, if it's the director, the producer, whoever it is, with the main talent, like, Go straight and try to establish rapport, they're almost always if they sign on to your project, they want to talk to the director, they want to know, like, go pick them up at the airport, you know, like you been if it's if it's all possible, I'm talking about maybe more of the director, like, be there, be there talk, I mean, then they have to talk to you in the car, and you can tell funny jokes. And you know, if they've written a book, read the book, read the book, you know, you can talk about their book, you don't do you know, talk about things that they enjoy? And like, Is it the end of the day, we're all human beings, and, you know, they approach like, where, like, maybe for us as independent filmmakers, movies or likes, like, this is my life. This is what I do. But for them, you know, they've been made more established in their career, like, this is their job. So and sometimes people don't like to talk about their jobs, they talk about dogs, they like to talk about their cars, but you know, I mean, like, like about talking about just things and Just kind of establishing that right away with them, that you're, you know, not that the film's secondary, but like, you really are excited to have them there and you just want to connect as a, you know, hey, let's just talk about, you know, funny stories and this and that. And that will really loosen them up to like, okay, they're artistic, you know, because at the end of the day, these are artists, and you just have to really, you know, like, the shapes can be very shy people very, you know, personal people, and to be able to make them feel comfortable is is so important. And it honestly will defuse a lot of the issues that you might have with problems, because if they feel comfortable, you know, then they then they're just they're free to express themselves as artists.

Alex Ferrari 45:42
Yeah, that's, that's, that's my feeling as well, that actress is a general statement, but let alone high profile actors. They want to feel safe. They want to feel that they're in good hands as a director speaking from a director's point of view, and that the second that they see that there's some buffoonery going on, or they don't feel that they've directors got their back, or they can't, they're not safe. That's when the acting up happens. That's where I've seen that happen, and they start because they're defending themselves. They're like, you know, what, if this guy's not gonna take care of it, this girl's not gonna take care of me that I'm going to take care of myself. And this is how I'm going to do it.

Steven Luke 46:16
And I always say, like, anyone can put up with anything for one day. Now, that's not to say that you need to abuse people by any means, but like, you think for a day. So, you know, like, when it comes to just, you know, be be upfront. And like, you if you're having issues on onset, I mean that with being like, oh, to the actor, apologize, say, hey, we'll work on you know, just, yeah, just work it out. And, you know, put up with it, if they know that you're, you know, they're not there. They know what, that they know that they're not on the studio set. Right. And that's not down what you're doing by any means that you understand. And if you are, you know, responsive to them, as such a being cordial that you won't have any issues.

Alex Ferrari 47:03
Did you ever listen to that? That vo session with Orson Welles that legendary vo session with you have heard that one isn't that brilliant? isn't for everyone listening Orson Welles did a vo session for I think some sort of commercial as a wine commercial or something. And this poor vo director oh my god he just ripped him for like 30 Let's just it was like a train wreck you couldn't you couldn't look away like that with the Christian Bale and all that was that was that was that was brutal. That was that was brutal. Now, let me see. Oh, the well Do you have any other fun stories? Dolf story Ron Perlman story.

Steven Luke 47:51
Intel so one, fun one London story is and this will kind of tie in with we're shooting with off and I happened to be in a scene with him as well as if we were knife fighting. So we only had him in for the hour, we were doing a knife fight. And we didn't have any practice space. And he was only available for two hours. So we literally brought him into the production office this little like 12 by six to block the knife fight. So we're with everyone else running around blocking the knife fight and, and I was literally like, on the phone with sag, like right before I was supposed to talk to him. They told me it and I won't go into the details. But basically, I still need to get the actors cleared. So they let me know that I need to get the actors cleared. And then I had a knife fight doll. And then as soon as I got done knife fighting dolphin the tournament's were steps I'd get back on the phone with sag to try to clear, you know, the actors and Dolf to actually be in the film. So that was kind of a fun he was and like, for, you know, obviously Dolf knows what he's doing in terms of action. Yeah, and I mean, we're like, in a production office, like basically a little room, everyone's copiers going and we're blocking our knife fight scene. And, and I'm just thinking this whole time, like, there's no way that he's not that he couldn't remember it, but like, there's no way this is gonna look good. Or, you know, like we're, but no, like, we shot it seven days later. And he knew it. He knew that knife fight, like as if he had been practicing it for like, you know, months to prepare for it. And like, knew every step and he was just like, dude, like, he knew it. And we literally had 20 minutes in an office. So I thought that was just professional. Talk about a professional.

Alex Ferrari 49:26
So let's talk about financing. Because, you know, this is all sounds great. You know, we got a great script, you've talked to the actors, the agents are happy, and they're ready to go. Then there's that whole money thing. You've got to pay them and also have money for the budget of the film. How First of all, how do you finance the film? How do you finance most of your films in what part of pre sales come into that? And secondly, when you're when you're trying to lock in an actor, a lot of times they need proof of funds or something along that Correct, correct?

Steven Luke 50:01
Yes. Um, so, at least for me and kind of what I've gotten blessed to be able to do is with a lot of with pre sales movies, and, you know, kind of your so the financing then in the distribution in a pre sales movie are kind of tied hand in hand. So let's, let's say, we'll do we'll use Mickey Rourke as an example. You might go to a distributor and say, Hey, if I get Mickey Rourke in this movie, so let's, let's take it say it's a horror movie. And if I get Mickey Rourke attached to this movie, what do you think that's worth? What would you give me? And they might come back to you and say, Hey, we'll give you 100 grand to distribute your movie. And so you take that kind of offer. And you go and say that's in the United States. And then you go to Germany and say, Hey, I have this horror movie with Mickey Rourke in it, what would you give me they say, they'll give you 10 grand, okay, great. 10 grand. So right now you got 110 and then you go you so you go to different territories, potentially, and say, Hey, into distributors there and say, Hey, will you give me and maybe you add all that up to say, let's say $500,000? Okay, so then you've got you, my friend have not necessary. I mean, there's, there's some more steps in there. But here you've got $500,000 worth of value with your movie and Mickey Rourke. Okay, so while that might not be money, that is worth something. Now, that's probably worth something to say like, Hey, we could actually probably approach Mickey Rourke. Well, assuming you hadn't maybe approached Mickey Rourke to do the movie in the first place. Let's like, okay, now we know we actually can have some money if we have Mickey work in this movie. So then you go to Mickey Rourke and say, hey, what would it take for you to do this movie, you know, you make an offer, bam, bam, bam. So, you know, and then so once you once you connect the two, pre sales, and we'll just say Mickey Rourke, then you can go to, there's a couple options for you. You can go to a bank, I've lost it. I mean, I want to say like a Los Angeles bank, any bank will do it, like a bank? Could you could take these pre sales with the actor attached and say, hey, how much will you with this? With these kind of offers? How much is that? Would you loan against that. And they might say, hey, we'll give you you know, $300,000. So there, there's your money, there stirner, $1,000, make movie, now you got to go out and find maybe $200,000 more, or maybe you've got, I don't want to say you've got $200,000 in your pocket, but then you got it, you know, so automatically, your ability to then kind of go out to investors, you know, you just you've just added you know, if you go out to investors, and you only need that's way easier to raise, maybe $200,000, than it is to raise $500,000. And as opposed to even having to raise, you know, the budget of your movie without having any of these things, you know, an actor or any, any sales beforehand.

Alex Ferrari 53:15
So two things. One is pre sales is more rare nowadays, rare nowadays than it used to be before you really could do exactly what you're saying, with doesn't even need to be at a caliber of making work. How would you feel that the today's not literally today? Because we're an upside down? But pre COVID? Like, you know, just late 2019? What was the world like for pre sales? And is it Have you seen it become harder or easier?

Steven Luke 53:44
I think it's been it's been better. It's been bigger? I think the giant myth is that pre sales are no longer a thing. Now, the actual value amount of what your presets can be is down. Yes, that is that is true. And that's where like, the value is down. But like that's where if you're like a micro budget filmmaker, that's where your value as being able to do that has just increased, right? Because you know how to do things way cheaper than maybe someone else knew how to do it 10 years ago, because the value the values have come down. And that, in my opinion, is across the board, like on everything. And that has primarily to do with the DVD market, just shrink. And they haven't been able to completely monetized VOD, or, you know, streaming VOD. As soon as your movie goes, you know, on the internet, it's or even released on DVD and released anywhere. It's pirate city and everyone watches it for free. But you know what I mean, give or take. Yeah, he's just now it's available free and now you're fighting pirate city.

Alex Ferrari 54:47
So that's the part that's the hard thing. So then we've got this whole chicken and egg situation where if you go to Mickey works people and go Hey, look, what would it take? Well, we want 250 But I'm sure Mickey is getting hit up by producers in this, I've heard this, I've seen this happen. He gets hit up by producers daily, and they just want his name to go to go raise the funding now, but a lot of them they will not let you attach their name to the project unless they see verifications of them. So you kind of need that money first, in order to attach a Mickey Rourke in order to then go off and get pre sales to get you know, it's kind of like, so how does that work in today's world with you?

Steven Luke 55:26
Yeah, so it That does sound convoluted, and complicated. And it's almost circular. My answer to that is yes. Okay. And it literally, I mean, it's a fine dance. And I would record I mean, that's why I like bringing in having maybe someone a little bit experience and being able to do that is is very valuable to project. Not that they because it it's like it literally is that I mean that that and that is the film system. In a nutshell in a smaller world, because like, I'll let you in in the secret of Hollywood and our cheap right now this no one has any money should so tell them what no one does. tell anyone. And so, but I think that's a fun, that's a basis to start with it. When you know this, okay? It makes it a lot easier to work in the circle to try to get the money to make a project because everyone that's a basic building block of films is no one has any money, and everyone secretly knows this. And so that's why it's like, okay, you know, a Mickey Rourke might say, okay, we won't let you attach your name unless you have the money and then you but you can kind of softly then approach someone with money to get the money because you make you work softly attached. And then it's all kind of tied together. And you just kind of keep working. You just keep working it in a circle until it so I wish it simpler.

Alex Ferrari 57:04
Oh, it should be.

Steven Luke 57:05
I mean, I mean, it should be but like I've done several of these now. And each time I'm just like, it's just so easy. You just know, it's it works in a circle. And you just got to keep the circle going. Right? Because if it stops, things will fall apart.

Alex Ferrari 57:20
Right? The mute if the music stops, you're gonna run out of chairs. Yes. What's the old? What's the old joke in Hollywood? How do you how do you have? How do you? How do you get it? How do you get a small fortune? And how do you make a small fortune in Hollywood? I don't know this. How do you make a small fortune in Hollywood, you start with a large fortune. I mean, it's insane. Now, one thing about actors, and I have a lot of experience with this. And I would love to hear your point of view. And if this is actually a thing, but I my feeling is it isn't but letters of intent. What the hell? Is it really worth? Is it worth anything? Is it just, it's just kind of fluff? You know, because I remember when I was, you know, in my first book about making a movie with a mobster. And well, we have this actors letter of intent. And we had Oscar winning actress letters of intent. And we never got money, it doesn't really mean anything. From my point of view, I'd love to hear yours. Yeah.

Steven Luke 58:27
I would say, like to have an actor with a little letter of intent. The value to that is if you've had someone, and I'm just gonna say like a director that has worked with that actor with the letter of intent. Because then automatically, you know, it's a it's a like, it'll tell investors or like a financing bank, that that's a real thing.

Alex Ferrari 58:51
Because there's a relationship there. There is I mean, they, yes. So if you if you all of a sudden have a letter of intent from Dolf, and for Mickey to be in a movie, and that's what you have, you can go to investors like, well, he's already done movies with them. So this this is a real thing.

Steven Luke 59:06
Yeah, this is a real thing. Yes. Yes. And that's why it's me. I hate to say like, yeah, you need someone kind of like that on your project. It's super helpful. It's very helpful because and not that those guys would then do it because this person's in the project, but like, it adds to that level of like believability, but no, no,

Alex Ferrari 59:30
no, it's, it's it's a smoke and mirrors. It's smoke and mirrors. You kind of like, Look, look over here, look at the dance, look at the dance going,

Steven Luke 59:37
you got to keep that circle going. And if, you know, like, if, if have someone that has worked, I mean, like, I'll give you an example. Like I could message like probably, I'm gonna say Mickey Rourke because I know he's switched agents. But in the past, like, I couldn't leave message Mickey Rourke's agent and say like, Hey, I am doing this project and this and this is Mickey Rourke even available, and he would get back to me because a, you know, we've paid him for something and he would he would at least respond, he would say like, oh, Mickey schedule is, you know, not available for nine months, or whatever that is. And that's why like having that kind of value of a producer or someone attached, the project that has that ability is so helpful because it kind of cuts through all the BS right away. And you can know like, I mean, it's not that Mickey Rourke not interested in your project, it's because he's just not even available. I mean, he could be, you know, on vacation, so, you know, then you can move on, you're not wasting time.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:37
There. Fair enough. Makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now, with the distributor and pre sales, when you in your experience when you're getting mg. So essentially, you're getting mad and you're getting mg is basically before you're not just giving the movie and doing a profit participation.

Steven Luke 1:01:06
Like you said, like Promise, Promise, Promise letters. Pay you this once the movie is finished,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:13
But they are paying you once the movie is finished. So it's not like this isn't These aren't not speculation. It's not? What are those called? what they think the movie is going to make? This could be worth? Yeah, this would be cash, cash in the pocket. Right? So after that cash in the pocket comes in, you're hoping that all the cash that you're going to make off of the initial MGS is going to be not only enough to pay back your budget, but also maybe make a nice little profit it because do you actually see back end? Do you actually you know, with the way distribution is worked, is worked in the whole system is played out? I don't know. And dude, just say Alex, I don't feel comfortable asking.

Steven Luke 1:01:59
I think this is a great answer. Okay. So they always say in, in when you're trying to do distribution, whatever you're going to make, if they offer you, let's just say $20,000. That's all the money you'll ever see. Right? And I would say that like you, you can take that same to the bank every single time. Because if it but barring, okay, barring that, if your film is like a sensational hit or a hit, and then maybe you can, you'll see some more money later on, like down the road, like maybe two or three years later. And I'm not saying that's a lot of money. But like, you'll see some royalties come in, maybe two or three years later down the road. But whatever they are going to offer you up front is about all they'll see. I mean there, I mean, all you're gonna see from whatever that territory is, or let's just say us just to make things simple. So yeah, whatever, whatever that mg is, if they're offering you know money, and they're going to pay you are off of I'm not saying you shouldn't do that deal. Just like just know that you will not just put that in your brain, you will not see any money ever.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:11
It's what I've been up in the mountains for a while now.

Steven Luke 1:03:15
And I know you have you say in all your shows I want for those that are listening, like I listen to Alex's shows, like from the beginning. So I've taken a lot of his advice to heart. So start at episode one. And then you know, what are you on two, maybe 300 and out?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:32
We're getting close to 400. Now,

Steven Luke 1:03:34
Listen to all them. They're all irrelevant. No, and you can stop fine. And then you can be done. Yeah, there's no you'll learn everything. No, no. So very important. But yes, I mean, please, please, please, please. And that's to say like, if you're if they're offering you just to distribute your film without paying you something upfront, you won't see any money. I mean, the odds of you seeing a money are very, very slim. And so like, and maybe I don't mean to paint doom and gloom on that scenario, because maybe, you know, obviously, you want to try to make more money off your movie, but maybe that just but literally the act of getting distribution for your movie has its own value. That means something when you're ready to make a second one or third one, you know, take it on the to take it on the chin is you might have to take it on the chin it on the chin on the first but you might have to take it on the chin. So just realize that if you're in that situation, you have you know, you might have to take it on the chin in order to get that distribution because that act of distribution literally will help you on the next one that's 100% it 100% will help

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
Right so if you if you get picked up by Lionsgate or you know Warner home movies or you know or one of these distribution companies like that, that are upper echelon not Yeah, not lower Echelon, but higher echelon

Steven Luke 1:05:00
But even lower guys, I mean, just that act of like, being able to get, you know, I mean, there's a lot of things but like they always say like we can get your movie in Walmart. You know, I don't that might not equal any dollars but it means something

Alex Ferrari 1:05:15
or theatrical or or limited theatrical. Don't even what do you think about limited theatrical? Well, I mean, obviously right now theatrical is a big question mark. But before COVID?

Steven Luke 1:05:29
Like, forget theatrical. Like, if they're trying to tantalize you with limited theatrical, that means they'll play it in if they play it at all. I mean, if they actually do it, they'll play it in 10 cities, and they'll run it on a weekend in some small theater that no one they won't have any press about to play. I mean, it will be limited. And away then to charge you, you know, a lot of money in expenses. So

Alex Ferrari 1:05:59
he just used he used he just use air quotes for people not watching this. There was sorry,

Steven Luke 1:06:04
I forgot. Yes, I put expenses in air quotes. And but I will throw I will throw if it if it means but saying that. Okay. theatrical run a limited theatrical run could help the film out in order to get on Netflix, let's just say,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:23
right? How about how about for foreign if it's a US

Steven Luke 1:06:26
limited me for foreign discipline. So you know it. So maybe you got to take that on the chin as well.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
So I want to be very clear about this. everyone listening, you the way that you're making money with your films is by stacking the cast with value that has presale value to distribution companies around the world in different territories. If you don't have that pre preak, that that valuable cast, pre sale value cast, you won't sell your movie, you won't get any pre sale money, you will not pre some money, but you won't even get any offers, you will get no MGS. And then now you're in the world of I'm going to donate my film attacks a non tax deductible donation to a film distributor. Is that fair to say?

Steven Luke 1:07:15
Yeah, I mean, yes. But I like I said, like, maybe that's what you have to do in order to take that next step on to the next one. I'm speaking maybe more for those micro budget filmmakers, right,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:26
you don't want to throw a million dollar movie?

Steven Luke 1:07:30
Yeah, I mean, if you, you know, if you make a film for $5,000, and you're able to go through all these steps and get distribution, and even if you're not gonna make any money, do you only have five grand and you get distribution on your movie, that's huge. That means someone in the distribution world sees value, at least enough for them to even just put on this go, they have to spend a little bit of money to put your stuff out there. Like, that's a huge deal. And, and don't let that discourage you, you know, and you're only out you'd only be out five grand, which is like, huge, because when you get into that, you know, let's say $100,000 Plus, I mean, you could literally you could be in the exact same boat except the out $100,000.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:11
Right. That's why my first film cost me about five grand, and I got sold to Hulu and sold it overseas and, and you know, got it on different platforms and stuff. And it's five grand, my last film was three. And I got distribution for that. I was like, Okay, great.

Steven Luke 1:08:27
And it's a big deal. Because, you know, like, it would it that helps for things like when you approach talent or investors, right? And they're like, Okay, well, at least he got a film to the distributions point. Like, we know, he got out there to start selling. I mean, they Oh, there might be some things that investor might not totally understand. But they definitely understand like, hey, his last movie, at least got to distribution. And I can actually watch it on a physical like on almost a DVD, but they can actually see it going to market. And then you can still get the known the market.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:02
How important are filled markets to your process? Like AFM can.

Steven Luke 1:09:08
I mean, I think they're important. You know, for the producer in me hates them, because all it is is just a bunch of added expense, in my opinion, that film will have to go through, especially in today's world when you can like send out a screener out to just about anyone and they can go watch the film and check out they can see it from their home and if they want to buy it, they'll go after it. If not, I won't, but it is, um, for the industry. You know, sometimes it's that showmanship factor that you know, you got to be in that game to some extent in order to be taken seriously. That's not to say that you're not a serious person. But that's still that part of that Holly perception

Alex Ferrari 1:09:49
is perception keepers.

Steven Luke 1:09:51
Yeah and market you know, with maybe an established sales rep selling your film, you know helps you know What helps you and your filmmaking journey and career do now that might say be financially, but it does help?

Alex Ferrari 1:10:06
Do you use sales reps? I do. And but these are pre built relationships, they have sales rep that you actually trust.

Steven Luke 1:10:14
Yes, yeah, I've got honestly, like, I've got one go to sales rep team that I use for, like all of my stuff. And I've had that relationship since the first movie that I've ever had. And that, you know, if I can give a piece of advice to like, being able to establish, I think there's like a misconception about sales reps. That is partially true, but also built, you know, like, just the nature of the beast. First approaching a sales rep. And your, I don't wanna say nobody, but like, you don't have anyone in your movie, you don't, you know, it's maybe not a genre, that's super sellable. And if they take you on, you know, like, there's a lot of, you know, like that movie, we'll have a hard time selling, like, it's just, you know, and my family's in does real estate, like, I always did real estate, and one of the things that I've always learned is that, listen, I can get up and, and you can price your house, at this price, at the end of the day, I still got to show the house, and someone still got to buy it. So if it's not the house, you know, I mean, like, if the house is not worth it, the buyers will let you know. And so a sales rep company, they they'll give you all the lights, the showmanship and the lights and glamour and the estimates, but at the end of the day, your movie has to sell, like, it's your product that they're selling, they can't sell it for you. Now, obviously, there's some things that they can do to, like help. Like, it's the product. So my my piece of advice then is like, just realize that like it's your product, so sometimes that doesn't mean it's bad, but like then to so pick a sales rep for your project that you you feel maybe comfortable with and trying to build and establish that relationship. And then but and also realize that maybe they're not going to make it have, they're not going to make me any money off this movie. But you know what, that 10 year relationship potential that you could develop with them will pay off in dividends, just because, obviously, you know, like, you'll establish that rapport, they know you're a filmmaker that can deliver a movie, you know, then you kind of go maybe the next one, you have a talent, well, then all of a sudden, you're like, they know you're a filmmaker that can deliver with talent, and they'll help push you. And they'll help guide you into things to help your career along, they will be there for you. But you got to you got to you got to build that relationship with them. It can't be, here's my product, how about you sell it? And when they don't do that, then you you you burn the house down and you leave? I mean, now saying all those things like, yes, are predators out there. And you Oh, that's why it's so important to call other producers. But, you know, there's a lot of really great established sales reps. And you just want to, you know, go in there thinking, hey, I want to start I know, people that sell my movie, I want to start a relationship with them.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:12
You know, I think because I know a lot of sales reps as well. And I know the handful that are I know a handful of good ones I got ripped off by one early on in my career episode, I think number two or three of this show was me ranting about producers, sales reps. Because I was still I was still 10 grand off of me back in the day. But I feel that a lot of times that producers reps and sales reps get bad raps is they'll pick up a movie that has no talent, quote, unquote, no marketable talent. And they try to do their best. And generally the market will say no, but if you but if you show up with a movie with Dolf, or RA, or Ron Perlman or someone have, you know, some sort of marketable talent, it makes their job a lot easier. They can pick up the call and call Germany call two or three buyers in Germany and go, I got a Mickey work movie here. What can you give me for it? And that's the that's why you hire someone like that, because they have those automatic connections to all these buyers around the world, that you just don't,

Steven Luke 1:14:12
yeah, and they'll play ball with you. So like, Look, if your first film totally tanks, just because of the you know, not because it's a bad movie. It's just because it just didn't have the glitz and the glamour that it takes for a distributor to sell. Probably, you know, to the best of their ability. You know that if you kind of if you do approach them with like, hey, I've got this horror film, then if we had Mickey work distributor might go Oh, let me make some calls for you. Right there.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:39
And the guy. I'd work in it. Exactly. Now, which leads us to my final question COVID-19 and how production is going to be moving forward, how the film markets are being affected what you think in your personal opinion from being a veteran in the business. How do you think things are gonna move moving forward, like I know nobody knows the answer to this, but I just like to hear your opinion about first of all production and then also film markets because I don't know about you like, I'm not going to AFM this year, even if I'm invited on, but I'm not going to a public event in 2020, pretty much. So how can you do a film market without hundreds of 1000s of people together?

Steven Luke 1:15:23
If you want my opinion, Now, granted, this is my opinion. And let me give you some background. I'm a history major by trade. Okay, so I always approach things, just naturally, because it's who I am, by looking into the past to predict the future. Okay, let's just, I put

Alex Ferrari 1:15:39
very slow sound advice. Sound Advice, sir. Okay,

Steven Luke 1:15:42
so my advice would be, history has always rewarded the bold, and this is an opportunity for the bold to us, I mean, I, I'm not recommending that you go out there and make your movie. You know, people at risk can pay for all these things. But I mean, they're a whole industry is ground to a halt. And those that are willing to go out and be creative this craft and create will be rewarded. That's just my opinion. So and, you know, and I'm not saying they like, that's a. So that's my right now, I think, eventually, if we looked into the future, I think things by, I think by, like productions will limp along here this fall, like in terms of just what's happening, like there'll be, they'll, they'll try to make some things work. I think by next year, this will all be in our rearview mirror. I think things back on track. I think we'll see a giant spike in you know, profitability, potential off of VOD, because a lot of people are staying at home and getting used to watching now things on TV and streaming. I think that will only help boost the streaming markets from the into into the future. And so that will be which is great for independent filmmaker independent films, because that's been the one area that's been a real big hit on just our ability to make income from our work. Um, I think unfortunately, you know, theaters will have a really hard time. You know, but I, I always foresee like the big tentpole movies, the big budget stuff, you know, the Marvel movies, I think that's the only way to really experience them.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:41
I agree with

Steven Luke 1:17:43
that. relief. So though the theaters will be okay. But I do think it will, you know, very, it won't be it's, you know, it's hard to be profitable as independent doing theaters anyways, I think it just won't be the death be a real death sentence to like, Don't even bother taking two years. That's not to say that there's not some allure to it,

Alex Ferrari 1:18:02
you know, but also, and I'll be, I'll play devil's advocate here, if there isn't a lot of studio product for all these screens, there might be opportunities for iPads to come in, and to intake because honestly, beforehand, the studios are only making 30 movies a year 40 movies a year,

Steven Luke 1:18:23
you've got a lot of great videos on how to market and distribute your movie. And I think that there is, especially with theaters, there's a giant missed opportunity to just focus in on theaters and marketing your film, and keeping it that world. And I could go I could mean that's its own like, Oh, no, it's its own thing. And I have had guests on who've made millions, millions theatrically self distributing, and for walling and booking their own theaters, and it's a thing, but it's a lot of work. And it's a lot. And if you're you know, if you're in the most creatives like to do the project, get it out there and then move on. And that's what I it's hard to, it's hard to you know, like live in your film for another two years, or whatever, you know, oh, no,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:11
I I've been trying to tell people like the the real work starts at the end of the cut. That's when the real work started. Like, the hardest part is not getting the movie made. The hardest part is getting the money

Steven Luke 1:19:23
back. Yeah, well, and so Alex, that's why with the pre sales that we've been talking about, you, you can do that process of, you know, attaching the talent to the you're doing a lot of work. But you're doing it almost before you start shooting it and as opposed to after. And so like the same, it's the same amount of work, except that you're taking that took risks. You're taking that risk away from what you're trying to do, and you're putting it on the front end. And so that's why it's, in my opinion, if you're able as a filmmaker To be able to get to that point where you can like, okay, hey, we're gonna raise. That's why that the distribution and the financing, you can tie together and put it towards the front end of you trying to make a movie, because then you could spend two years in that circular motion. Oh. And it's way better to do that than to have done six months in pre production, trying to raise the money, scrape out money, shoot the film, post production, and then spend two years trying to sell it. It's just,

Alex Ferrari 1:20:30
Yeah, you just want to hedge your bets. If you can, it's like, you know, when, when Apple creates an iPhone, they know that they have a market, they have an infrastructure, they have sale predict, you know, they know that they're going to recoup whatever money they spent to make or design or invent that product. filmmakers never think about that. They're the only business we were, when I use the term business. It's very loosely in our in show business. But we're the only product that's like, I'm gonna go spend a half a million dollars and then figure out how I'm going to get my money back. There's no other business that does that.

Steven Luke 1:21:06
Yeah, no, it's very true. And that's why if you can, if you can take that the business side of things and throw that in on the front end of your movie, you know, yes, will make your life not easier, but it'll be more enjoyable, you'll enjoy the product and so much mean not that you're not gonna have stress. But man, it's a lot easier to you know, only have to worry about maybe, you know, 10% of your budget coming back, as opposed to like, 100% of your budget coming back.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:33
Even just breaking even is a win, win. It's a complete win.

Steven Luke 1:21:37
Yeah, don't you know, if you break even on your movie that is a win

Alex Ferrari 1:21:42
100% win? Again, no other business? No other business is that a win.

Steven Luke 1:21:47
But you know, here's the here's the the other secret, like, you keep at it long enough. And you will have, you will have that catapult and I mean, one of the things I know we didn't really talk about, or maybe like investors, investors, one of the, I always like to tell investors is like, Listen, maybe it's not this movie, I'm asking you for this. And, and, and this is why, you know, this is gonna work. And maybe it's not this movie that we make a lot of money on. And but it's gonna help us get to that next level. And then when we get to that next level, maybe you know, I'm gonna ask you for more money. And maybe it's not that movie, that's gonna make us the money, but I'll get you, I'll get you, I'll get your money back, you'll get on the red carpet, you'll get to meet some stars. And then when we get to that next level, I'm gonna ask you for even more money. But that'll be the point where we're going to hang off really, really well. And you know what an investor can see that, because it's just like any business, they understand the risks. And they see like, hey, this person has got a plan and a future and they know where they're going. And they know that this is, you know, if you're not an investor, I shouldn't say they're not worried about 20%. Because they are, but like, they're investing in movies, there's a lot of glitz and glamour, but they want to have the huge hit. Where they you know, I mean? Like, that's what that's why they're investing. That's why they're investing in the upsell

Alex Ferrari 1:23:09
the upside?

Steven Luke 1:23:11
Yeah, you have to you have to explain that to them. Like that is your goal as well. And but it might not, you know, like, it might not be the project that you're making for him right there at that moment. But you have to get you have to take those steps in order to get there. That's the only way. It's the only way to be able to to proceed forward. Fair, and they'll see that they'll respect that. And it'll add that level of like, I've solidly we'll invest in in the steps that maybe we're gonna take.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:42
Very cool. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests, as you know, if you've listened to the show yet, these are what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Steven Luke 1:23:52
Collaborate, collaborate, the film, filmmaking is such a collaborative business at all levels. And, you know, even collaborate with everyone on your team. I mean, we all know if you look at the back end of the credits, there's hundreds of people that work on your film, and collaborate with as many you know, of all the people that you know, all the all the people that help you make your film and your project, collaborate with them, they're going to have good ideas, they're going to have bad ideas, roll with it, take it, let it sink in. And it's like producers, all this stuff, because it's such an it's an art form. It's like molding clay. You know, there's things that will happen that you got to collaborate and you got to trust those around you to be immersed in that process. And I think of all the things that, you know, filmmakers have a tendency to lose is just that that art I mean, they don't forget it. They don't forget about the art form, but that art takes others especially in our business, and what bring their bring, you know, other people's, you know, art to life with them and it will just There'll be magic there. And that's when the magic is created. So collaborate, collaborate, collaborate,

Alex Ferrari 1:25:05
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Steven Luke 1:25:11
Perseverance, reservere, don't give up. Don't stop. You're gonna have so many pitfalls in life in filmmaking, and they're gonna seem like instrument hurdles. And maybe at that moment in time, it's gonna seem insurmountable, insurmountable. But with some time, and, and persistence and patience, like, you'll get past those things, life will go on, things will keep moving forward, it's just like this COVID-19 I'm literally sitting here, just like, I have a couple projects that were literally I mean, literally, like I was on a movie that I'm producing, I literally had just driven to Montana, the day before pre production, we're supposed to get started in March to start shooting, like for pre production to start. And that's when the national emergency started, all the dominoes are falling, everything was put on hold. And I just was like, Oh my gosh, we're just like, at that point, this movie is gonna get made, as the Debut Movie was supposed to get made, you know, I mean, like, where everything would have been sealed. So I only tell that because like, you just got to be patient, that your timing will come, your moment will be there. And you just got to be ready for it. And I think that's hard, especially in our business to be able to just, you know, sit still. So

Alex Ferrari 1:26:34
Three of your favorite films and three of your favorite films of all time.

Steven Luke 1:26:37
Okay, so I know you asked this to everybody. And I was like, I have a list of like, like art films, I was like, that are my favorite but and not that I don't want to get those boxes. Like I want to like talk to Lord of the Rings. Which one which one, the whole thing? Fellowship of the Ring, okay. First time I sat in a theater and I saw when those guys when that when the hobbits and everyone was going across the I'd read the book, but I'd seen the book come to life. And I just sat back, I was like, I want to do this. I want to make this whatever this is. I want to do that. So that was a big deal to me. Probably the other one is a Star Wars Empire strike. I know I'm given like generic, generic, big, big budget ones. But you know, like this. They're like ones that I watch all the time. And then a world war two movie called Kelly's Heroes. Yeah. Mmm. Kelly's Heroes. Yeah. It is a comedy. It's so funny. And I would recommend if you have not seen Kelly's Heroes, watch Kelly's Heroes. It's like the best combination of story. You know, historical accuracy actors and comedy. It's great Donald sutherlands in it.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:49
It's fun. It's a it's a good flick. I remember it. And now where can people find you? Like in terms of how they can get a hold of your personal your personal address if you could and phone number now I'm joking. But how can people find you online? Sir? If you want to even put that information out there. Yeah.

Steven Luke 1:28:07
Just get my wallet out. And here you go. Just for people that are going to see the video you get a sneak peek

Alex Ferrari 1:28:14
Social security card will be fine.

Steven Luke 1:28:16
Everything. So the probably the best way is you know IMDb me, Steven Luke on there. I think I got my email on there. shoot me a message. You know, say hi, check in. I'm always open to give advice, especially via email. I mean, that's easy. I say that because I have a lot of stuff going on and emails kind of the best way for me to keep track of like, not what I said but like, Oh, yeah, okay, I can I tuned myself back into the maybe a conversation better that way. So that's probably the best way to get ahold of me. You know, you can some of my stuff is on. I'd recommend you know, I'll do a shout out like, some of my stuff is on amazon prime. Give it a watch. I need the seven cents per hour but because

Alex Ferrari 1:28:58
First of all, you're getting seven cents. Holy cow down to five. It's a penny.

Steven Luke 1:29:04
A penny now?

Alex Ferrari 1:29:05
So it's a between Penny and 12 cents. So if you're good, you get up to 12 cents. But generally everyone's at a penny.

Steven Luke 1:29:13
Oh geez. Well, I've got to film at least at seven so let me give you the wow whoa,

Alex Ferrari 1:29:19
Wait a minute. You've got a seven cents an hour movie. That's quality. Its quality.

Steven Luke 1:29:25
I didn't know that was such a big deal. Now I'm more excited about the seven cents.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:29
Oh you kidding me? Seven

Steven Luke 1:29:31
Check out my films then online. I mean, she's apparently I'm making bucco bucks.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:35
Oh no. Seven euro seven cents an hour filmmaker, my friend. That is something I put on? That's like an Oscar like you're you're up there.

Steven Luke 1:29:45
I don't know about all of my phones. But I've seen one a couple years ago. I don't know. I know. I feel it. You know, it's funny as we're having this conversation. It's like, oh, seven cents an hour. Oh boy. Oh boy.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:58
Do you see what Where this is a ridiculous business. We're in an absolutely ridiculous ISIS button. Since we can't do anything else. We're stuck here.

Steven Luke 1:30:09
That's storytelling, start telling stories. And you know, it all bites us and we all got a story to tell. And yeah, man, best format film.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:20
Luke it has been an absolute pleasure man talking to you. This has been a just knowledge bomb filled episode, which I knew it would be. And I think it's I'm gonna make sure this is mandatory listening for all filmmakers because it, I covered things in this and you and I covered things in this episode that we've never I've never really had on the show before. So it is it's really, really great stuff. So

Steven Luke 1:30:46
Why don't I share with everybody and I want to at least leave with this last like, I am a filmmaker out of South Dakota. I went to Los Angeles for a few years, and now I'm back doing the films where I live. So let that be an encouragement to all those people sitting and saying like how can I do this? totally doable. You can do it from even little state of South Dakota. So just keep hanging in there.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:10
Thanks again, my friend. I appreciate it. Stay safe out there.

Steven Luke 1:31:13
Awesome. You to stay safe. We'll talk soon, hopefully real soon.

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BPS 252: The Ever-Changing Film Marketplace with Producer Bradley Gallo

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Today on the show, we have producer Bradley Gallo. His production company, Amasia Entertainment, is behind the upcoming Wild Mountain Thyme, starring Emily Blunt, Christopher Walken, Jon Hamm, and Jamie Dornan.

His 2019’s Official Sundance Selection Them That Follow, starring Olivia Coleman, Jim Gaffigan, Walton Goggins, Kaitlyn Dever, Lewis Pullman, Alice Englert, and Thomas Mann, is now on Showtime.

Amasia has also recently acquired the rights to the Green Hornet franchise. Bradley’s other credits include Mr. Rightwith Anna Kendrick and Sam Rockwell (available on Netflix), The Call with Halle Berry, and Careful What You Wish For with Nick Jonas and Dermot Mulroney.

Bradley and I discuss the ever-changing film marketplace, how he is positioning his new project to adapt to the new rules of the game, and much more.

Enjoy my conversation with Bradley Gallo.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:02
I like to welcome the show Bradley Gallo, man, how you doing Bradley?

Bradley Gallo 3:24
I'm doing great.

Alex Ferrari 3:24
Thanks for being on the show my friend. How are you holding up in this weird and wacky world that we live in today?

Bradley Gallo 3:30
You know, I'm too busy thinking about all the development projects we have that I actually just sort of block it out. But I'm I'm sure that everybody is suffering in their own right. And, and I totally understand, you know, it's tough.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
It's it is it is tough. Like I was saying earlier the struggle is real. Without question. And you know, I you're either gonna use either Chicken Little or an ostrich. I think those are the two you either just like I don't see anything. I'm just moving forward or Oh my god, the world's coming to an end. I tend to be more the world's coming to the guy but I know people who are very ostrich like You know what, I can't deal with that right now. I just got to focus on what I can control, which is a lot healthier, sir, than where I live.

Bradley Gallo 4:14
I'm trying to be positive. I have a similar mindset. Sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 4:20
I always say prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And that's and that's all you can do. Now, how did you get into the business?

Bradley Gallo 4:27
Oh, wow, I got into the business a long time. But first of all, if you look at my fifth grade yearbook, I wrote, I want to be a movie star. And I think a lot of people who are in this industry always wanted to start out by being an actor. I like that was kind of the thing you're in plays and all that stuff. It didn't come around to bite me as a bug until later around. 1718. When I was trying to be a veterinarian, I thought I was going to go to college to be a veterinarian. I was at all the different vet like tech, you know I worked at every single Veterinary Hospital in Long Island, New York and picking up poo most of them time. But you know, I had an issue with putting animals to sleep that was my big like I couldn't do it. But I was in love with these these veterinarian books that were written by James Herriot called all great and small. And it was just like it was stories. It was storytelling through animals. And for me, I realized at one point that it wasn't about the vet thing that I like, it was the stories that I liked, and it came right back around to I need to be in film and TV and I have to figure that out. And that became a very long journey. Starting in graduating college with a totally different degree, and then becoming a production assistant on sets in New York keeping the faith with I don't know if you remember that Edward Norton Ben Stiller movie, yeah, an autumn in New York, which was a Richard Gere movie. Yes. Back with the back one on a writer. Yeah, with one. Yeah,

those were the production assistant jobs that I had when I first started. So that's kind of the entry. And then I realized it was a 30 year old, I was 21. At the time, there was a 30 year old production assistant on that set. And I said, there is no way that was what went into my mind. Oh, no, during the time of, you know, when, you know, Edward burns would make his movies and go Sundance and there was you can make movies for like, 30 grand, but you were like, thinking it was so weird time it was very Sundance related in the 90s. So I said, Well, okay, like everybody else, I'm gonna go right and direct and produce them Sure. And raise the money. And, of course, that's a lot harder than you think. So I had a lot of energy then a lot less now. And then I I sort of accomplished that I raised money from doctors and lawyers and family and all the stuff that you do then. And I wrote a screenplay and I started the movie, and I put it together. And I actually shot it in a summer camp because I knew at that time, summer camps were the thing like you made horror films at summer camps, right? So I knew you can make them for real. So I had a connection because I've gone to a summer camp. I rented out the camp after the summer was over $10,000 to feed the crew, how's the crew and use all the locations sold? Oh, so I wrote a screenplay around it. And and and that's literally how the first movie came to be. And of course, that went to festivals. There's no easy way of how you get there.

Alex Ferrari 7:13
It was also different. It was also a different time you're talking about you were still in the 90s. Right?

Bradley Gallo 7:17
Yeah. 90s. Right. Yeah. Early cost there. Yeah, that's it. That was a whole other world. Totally, no, but you're asking how I started. China then and then. And then when September 11 hit, it was impossible to raise money for movies, like 2008. Like now that this stuff always comes around. And so I pivoted to television at that time. In reality TV was blowing up and I needed to pay rent, I had come out of my family home at that point. And, and so I worked in reality TV, I ended up on a reality TV show, called America's next producer.

Alex Ferrari 7:51
Really, I never heard of this. I never

Bradley Gallo 7:53
heard of this source. Because it lasted one season, it was on the TV Guide network. So like, was there a TV Guide network? Remember, they had the stream across the bottom? Yes, they actually made programming above the top. So I was in one on that show. That's amazing, the top 10. And, you know, I then had my breakdown, because you know, they don't, they don't feed you. They don't you don't get to just sleep. It's purposely set up for you to get into fights and all that stuff. So I did all that. And then and coming out of there, I kind of was sort of fed up with my dreams of like, I wanted to be in film. And then there was reality TV. And I just said I want to do something a little bit better for the greater good. And I went back to school when I got my masters at Columbia, in journalism, which I did really well in the school and came out with a CNN fellowship and started working for CNN was eventually rotated through the shows ended up on anderson cooper show for a bit. And then journalism got to the way it is today, which is what massively by, you know, polar. Where we're on one side argument, the other side of the argument. And I would just I it wasn't it wasn't speaking to me in the way I wanted it to speak to me. It's nothing wrong with journalism. It's just, it's changed. And it wasn't. It was again, back to the stories it was, it was less about the stories and more about the headlines. And I wanted to get deeper into stories. So I I moved, I made a couple of phone calls. I had some connections in LA and I took totally moved way late into my 30s to LA to start my career all over again from the bottom with somewhat of a background in media. And then I was sort of a creative development Exactly. And in a company called Troika and then headed their production and development and started producing the films and sort of built my career there. We had a hit early the call with Halle Berry. Yeah, it was a very a hit movie very early. And then of course, I made subsequent movies at some work, some didn't. And, you know, the rest of the career is where we are right now, which we can talk about.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
Now. Which which I always find it fascinating because I've had so many Many people on the show and I've talked to so many filmmakers, successful people in the industry that they go, yeah, I went to college and I got a degree in ballet, like something so

Bradley Gallo 10:11
In horticulture

Alex Ferrari 10:12
Yeah, exactly that like, but I, but I, what I really want to do is direct, you know, it's always, it's always fascinating because I see people like like that all the time. Like I went to film school, like I always knew I never wanted to be an actor, actor, thank God, I always knew I wanted to be a director and a filmmaker. So I went to film school. So when I hear people, like, I went to a four year school and got a degree in something else, but then I'm like, Yeah, but I really want to be a director. So I be I piayed. And I've seen those 30 year old PS, I saw a 40 year old PA, okay, and it is terrifying. I got when I, when I started playing when I was I was playing in college. And then once I got out of college, and got my first jobs, I started playing on the side. And I just said, this sucks, I'm going to go into post because at least there's an air conditioned room. Sure, and I learned posts. And that's how I kind of went down

Bradley Gallo 11:03
a lot of post production. In fact, that's even better. I've learned a long time ago that I wasn't going to be the director. And I'll tell you why. I mean, I can direct a film, if you hire me to director film, I know exactly what you have to do to do. Sure. But can I be good to the level of getting above the noise? Do I have the talent that's so creative, that it's so like universal is going to be calling an enforcement, like that kind of talent, there are so many more talented people that may that that's not where I lie, I lie in the journeyman version, I can make you the movie with that script. But in terms of the angles and the thinking and the way to be even more beyond, I didn't have that that level of talent, in my opinion. And so from a producing, sampling, what I liked the most about it, and why I got so into it was that I get to be a part of every single part of the process, and have a little bit of an effect. And then think of it from a big picture perspective. So I'm involved from the idea to the script, to the prep, to the production to the post, to the distribution to the collection, to the accounting to the end, you know what I mean? And nobody is able to do that everybody comes in and out. Yes. Um, and, and, and, and that is a good thing for me, because I'm very good at sort of managing people to do their best, as opposed to being my best isn't going to be as creative, if that makes sense. So know that that's kind of what I came to this

Alex Ferrari 12:27
That takes a tremendous amount of self awareness, to be able to, to be able to say, you know what, I can do this and I, it's kind of like me like I can I let my first feature. But I was like, Can I light up? Can I be a cinematographer for a feature? Yes. Am I going to do it like Deakins? No, I will never even get to the remote close. I wouldn't even be in his shadow anytime. So can I make something look decent on screen?

Unknown Speaker 12:53

Nice.

Alex Ferrari 12:54
I'm like, No, I'd rather hire somebody.

Bradley Gallo 12:57
Yeah, and that's what, that's how I ended up trying to, because a lot of people always asked me like, how do you figure out which one you want to do. And it's like, a lot of the directing thing is ego, either you have it, and you want it and you need it. And it's everything you've ever been, or you are just ego. And those guys that doesn't pose that doesn't bode well for an actual collaborative process. So, so frustratingly, you know, I've run into that.

Alex Ferrari 13:23
So let me ask you something. Because I've made my last feature I did was called on the corner of ego and desire, which is about filmmakers, and their ridiculous egos and how we are delusional and all that kind of stuff. So I what do you do as a producer, when, because the ego doesn't show up in the interview process. A lot of times the

Bradley Gallo 13:44
ego shows up I it's absolutely shows up for me only because I'm so in tune, typically and open to it now. Okay, good. But saying there are people who can be a certain way to get the job and then it starts to get really intense. I always look at the person in the interview, and I go, what where's the level in the interview? And then I'm going to times that by five or six, and then I can I work with that? Sure if the level of interview is at the 10 Oh, you know, you're done. You're not know

Alex Ferrari 14:14
if he does. So how do you do? How do you as a producer, how do you deal with ego centric directors, actors, co producers, collaborators, like how because your your your papa bear, you kind of like you're overlooking the whole thing. So everyone it comes to you, when something goes wrong, the producers like the most abused.

Bradley Gallo 14:36
So the first thing you do is you set the tone early and you have to have the relationship with the director. If you don't feel like you're having that relationship from the interview to the prep, then you got to get out. It's just you got to find a new director because it's a three year process, you know, in making a movie and and in the director, it's at least a year of that. So you are like 24 seven with that person you have first of all you have to enjoy That time if you want to be with that person making that vision, and if you're not feeling that early on, even in even in like early prep, it's over, you got to move on if you can't sustain that, but let's say you get past that, and then the ego is still gonna be there, you need a healthy amount of ego because they have to drive decision making, they can't be like, I don't know what decision to make, what do you think, what do you think they have to have a vision, and a decision has to be made. But they have to have somebody in their ear, sort of swaying in a direction that works for everybody. So sometimes I call myself the bridge between art and commerce. But you can't make a film without understanding that. So there are times when you have to, you have to say to the director, look, you don't need this big concoction with a drone in the thing, and then we can shoot it like this, save a bunch of money, and then you get the scenes you want it over here, right? So there's a lot of that in indie filmmaking, and that's about the comp, but then there's the other side, you know, we're gonna need some extra money talking to the investor, this idea that just came out of this is amazing, and it's going to change the way the film is gonna look. And so we need this extra money, and here's why. So I'm bridging that back and forth. But when the ego is flying in the middle of that, that's when you have to check the director. Why do you need this? What is your reasoning for acting this way? Tell me I want to understand artistically, how important that is, or isn't for this vision. And when I get that, I'm either able to, I feel a very strong internal talent to say, you know what, you're right. Or you know what, you're wrong. And, and I have the answer for why they're wrong. And then they have to sit with that. And, and they start to respect you early, you have to set this tone early. And when they start to respect you, either by your body of work, or by what you're saying, because you really understand your shit, then they're going to go in a way that starts to work for you that the ego starts to work for you. If they don't respect you, and or they are so stubborn in their ego, you're likely in trouble. And in that scenario, it's not gonna work. And it's just, it's just not gonna work. And I just sort of set the tone early that, yes, I'm the boss, but you are the boss of the vision. And I want to support that the whole way. But I will have to sway you, depending on how far off you're going from the original vision that you pitched us speaking in the beginning, from the original vision of the script, and what the finance ears and or studios are expecting. And that's my job, protect your art, but at but keep you in the line. And, and that's that's kind of how I feel.

Alex Ferrari 17:39
I always I've been saying for a while now that you could do exactly what you said the current commerce, there's the word show in the word business. And the word business has twice as many letters as the word show. And there's a reason and there's and there's a reason for that. I always say like, you got to look at the ROI of a specific thing you want on set. So do you need the techno crane that day? Can you know, what's the ROI? If you spend 4000 bucks to get the techno crane in for that one shot? Is it going to put in 4000 extra bucks in return? Is it like what is what? Like, do you need to go shoot off this giant thing with 1000 extras? Or can you do it another way that's going to be more cost effective and still tell the story appropriately? So we can make some money with this? Because it is and I have to? I have to believe that if you think this is true. It's tough to make money with

Bradley Gallo 18:28

movies nowadays. Very tough, much tougher than it's ever been. In fact, I got to my peak in career, let's say at the moment that I would consider that would have been around 2013 or 14 that there was shockingly like why can I actually not make a living at it? Can I make a living at this? Like you actually Wow. Yeah, about that. Which is not something that you think about in 20 years ago, when they were making hand over fist but it was very insular. There's only five people and the DVD business all that stuff. Now it's in the indie side, it's a struggle, you can make a lot of money and the big side if you had you know you're fast and furious, right? That's a whole nother story. And even when you go to the streamers, they're they're setting it up in a way where they're getting, they're giving you a little bit of vague above what the budget is that you can make some money on. But you better do 10 or 15 of those to have a real specific amount of income that then funds your company and then also has to fund your staff and and your lifestyle whatever that is. So you're actually looking at this as a regular job now not as the way people used to think where if you make it, you now are good zillionaire driving the Bentley's not true we have we have definitely changed that in this business.

Alex Ferrari 19:44
So I mean, so you did you did the call with Halle Berry who obviously she was just one of the biggest movie stars in the world very well known Oscar nominated an Oscar winner, all that stuff.

Bradley Gallo 19:53
Oh, fantastic person.

Alex Ferrari 19:55
Yeah. And from what I hear a fantastic I fear she's here. She's a wonderful person to work with. Film like that. When did that come out? Again, that came out a few years ago. 2013 2013. Alright, so 2013 is a very different time than 20. Let's say 20 1920 2020 is a whole other conversation fine.

Bradley Gallo 20:12
But think about that. That's seven years years.

Alex Ferrari 20:15
Yes. Yeah, six years, right. So six years, the industry changed dramatically. If you had the call today. Again, let's not let's take COVID out of the picture, let's say 2019. And you had the you had the call today, do you think you would have made the same kind of revenue? With the call today that you did back in 2013?

Bradley Gallo 20:35
I don't think it would have been in the theaters. And that movie was a wide release in the theaters. Yeah, that's how far they've come. But I'm saying that was a wide release in the theaters, it made a lot of money. So the question to you is, I don't think it ends up in the theaters. So that's a whole nother ballgame. Now, I'd say that movie gets made, it ends up on a streamer, and we make a lot less money. Unless we made it independently for less than money budget, they bought it for a huge bidding war moment. And even then, it wouldn't have made as much money as it made as a successful theatrical film. So no, it's a double whammy, it's no wouldn't have made as much money. And it wouldn't have been on the theatres. And so now I think that that that business has gone so dramatically, you know, theatrical has to be something massively IP, or massively when I say IP, now I think of I think of producers and directors as IP two. If it's Neil Moritz, that's an IP. If it's Steven Spielberg, that's an IP, right? that everybody's talking IP all the time, but not thinking about brand IP, too. So if it's not them, or content that warrants that, like our film, The Green Hornet, which has a massive property, wide release, big time, budget, those types of things, then why are they going to put, especially not, they're not gonna roll out the red carpet for sort of a smaller film on a wide release? They're not going to do it.

Alex Ferrari 21:57
But isn't it funny that all the IPS, you just talked about these IPS were developed in the 70s 80s 90s? And very 1000s? These are not IPS. So like, to have an IP? There's just no, yeah, it's a harvesting old IPS that are harvesting. greenheart It's from the 60s. You know, you know, so it goes

Bradley Gallo 22:17
back further than that. Right. Exactly. Radio Show in the in the 40s.

Alex Ferrari 22:21
Yeah, like the shadow like the shadow was, um, so it's, it's fascinating that, you know, a lot of people like, oh, there's very few directors in today's world that have the IP of a Spielberg, the Nolan's The finches, but those even those guys came up in the 90s in the early 2000s. You know, there it's you know, Rodriguez Tarantino, you know, these guys that have marquee names, they still all came up, then like, I'm curious, like, what's happening like, Ryan coogler? Did Black Panther. But Ryan coogler is not a brand, like people aren't gonna go see Ryan coogler films. I mean, unless they tell him Oh, this guy who did Black Panther, it's gonna take,

Bradley Gallo 23:00
yeah, he's getting there. It's gonna take time, you know, he's gonna take time, but he couldn't get there. And he probably will. But but it's rare. Like you said it so far. and few between that get to that level. So if you have a handful, let's say there's, you know, 20 names, you matter, right? And you have maybe 100,000 actors per state 100,000 directors per state. But I mean, I'm just saying like, it's, it's very hard, it's very hard, right? There is a tremendous amount of content that can be made and sold, but just not at a level that you think you're going to be sustaining some rich and famous lifestyle. So I always used to say, when I was younger, of course, inflation needs to adjust for what I said. But if I'm making $50,000 a year, and I'm making movies, that makes me a happy person. Now, it's like, you probably say, a different number, you probably say 150, or 200,000, right? It's like, what is the number, but it's not going to be the way it used to be. So you have to think about that, too. If you're if your egos in this, and it's all about rich and famous and all that. It's just, that's just not a goal. You have to love film forth and or television, and or storytelling, for as much of that as you love it to do it on a regular salary. Because you'll have a couple of moments. Maybe you have a year that you had, you did, you made $300,000 a year, and one year you made 25,000 if you're not planning for that, and averaging it over, and then you have kids and you're married and whatever that means your life is leaving. It's really hard. So keep keep that in mind. Now when you're going through the future of of content, which eventually is going to be AI, which is a whole nother thing.

Alex Ferrari 24:40
Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is I think Hollywood has been selling that story. I mean, for years. I mean, I talked to filmmakers all the time to think that they're going to make an independent film and send it to Sundance, and I'm telling them dude, even if you get into sun if you're the 100 if you're one of the 118 or 19 films that they accept, it doesn't mean what it used to. Don't get me wrong. If you get into Sundance, it's fantastic. It's great, but it's not a golden ticket like it was in the 90s.

Bradley Gallo 25:05
Now, it's give you a perfect example. I made a movie, it's called then that follow it went to 2009 teen or 2018 or 2019. So a very recent Sundance Film Festival. It has, you know, all really great actors, Olivia Coleman and Walton Goggins and you name it, there's Katelyn Deaver. I mean, there's a lot of a lot when a bunch of but this this film was made for, you know, under $2 million dollars, and independent and, and really well written and directed by to first time filmmakers. So exactly what your audience is dreaming about your gets in, does not have a bidding war. One company buys it for not too far off from what we spent, right, and then releases it. And then it didn't, it didn't have like a huge release, it had a very limited theatrical release, followed by the typical streamers and everything else. So it was playing on Showtime and so forth. good movie. Really good movie. I'm very excited about that film, actually. And it's launching a bit of careers around it some of the talent, but financially, we did our we did, okay, everybody made a little bit of money, a little bit of money, that but I have to go right into the next one to make some more because we're kind of like, you gotta hustle. I was even saying that on purpose. You gotta hustle more now than ever, to make the money that you need to sustain a lifestyle. And that's what and that's

Alex Ferrari 26:46
the message I've been trying to preach from the top of the mountains. I'm so glad you you know, someone like yourself is on the show telling people this because it's one thing hearing from me again and again and again. But I always love hearing it from people who are actively working and doing that's a perfect example. Like, oh, yeah, we just had a film. Exactly. Yeah. Just had a film in Sundance, it was a two mil undertone with first time directors, first time filmmakers. And this is a reality of what happened. Did we make some money? Yes. If that's all we did that year, would it have been good? Probably not. I would have probably had to do something else. Like we have to keep the ball going.

Bradley Gallo 27:19
We have to. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 27:20
yeah. It's a you know, it's not like, again, we'll

Bradley Gallo 27:24
go back to the 90s, where this myth began, where you go to Sundance, you get a buyout of a million or $2 million, the movie cost $50,000 to make and you're good. And you're good. Well, I'll tell you where the misconception is. Right? That and it's dangerous, because it's the streamers early on. And yes, the recent times of streamers, even in my year, the NFL there, which was I've been to Sundance a million times. But that's the first time I had a film in Sundance. So here's a guy who's been in the film business for a while, and it took me forever to get to Senator. So I finally get there. And it's like, you know, great. It's a wonderful experience. I'm so happy to have the film here. But I wasn't the film in the same year, late night came and sold for like, $20 million. Right? You know, another couple of films like Britain, all these movies, they they sold for a lot of money. But the misconception there is, who funded it? Where did that money go? And how much was the budget of that film? Right. So so there's a bit of that, that people don't think about, Oh, my God, they made an independent film for $20 million. The movie cost 15. And then there's 12 other people who are taking part of that five, right? So it's like, you don't really think you don't know you don't know the formulas of those movies. It's amazing that it got bought for that much that it went to Amazon, that it was a great movie, which it was. So something it's always as well with that they have, every movie is really actually very good for it's for whatever the genre is, or the person that's making it. They're good at finding talent, and it's wonderful experience. I can can't take them. But I want people's misconceptions to come down. The streamers are going to slow down on that. They're not going to

Alex Ferrari 29:03
well, they really have to do they already have they already have I mean, I

Bradley Gallo 29:06
don't go I mean, what hope owl but

Alex Ferrari 29:08
but I mean, look when I was I was in Sundance in 20. I don't know 2016 I think 2017 and at that year, Amazon said, If you got into Sundance, you have an open, we have an open bid, we'll buy your film for $150,000 if as long as you got accepted, and that was the thing that they were doing. Like if you don't get anybody else will buy $450,000 and then Netflix was buying a budget with like Netflix bought a ton of stuff. They don't do that anymore. Like you'll get the one or two three outliers

Bradley Gallo 29:32
to actually definitely Yeah, Netflix definitely does not they were not buying that year at all. But Amazon was going to the commies they bought like four comedies. You know if there's something they need, and it's really cool, and it has a lot of stars, they'll go and they'll pay big for it when they're ready.

Alex Ferrari 29:48
But that's the thing with some stars. He stars

Bradley Gallo 29:50
Yeah, yeah, no big stars, big stars, for sure. So yeah, it's it's a different beast. But yeah, it really comes down to it.

Alex Ferrari 29:58
Really you're saying late night me In a trip to late night, late night was with Emma Thompson and Mindy forgot her last name. And she that's over $20 million in a comedy. But that's, but that's not an indie.

Bradley Gallo 30:11
Look, it is not an indie. But it is it is. But it isn't. That's fair. There are big companies behind it. The agencies and the and the financial companies that Yeah, big. And then and then of course, it's really a good romantic comedy, which usually doesn't go to Sundance. Right. You know, there's that. And and then there's also the concept of, you know, what was the budget? I really don't even know what the budget was. But if the budget was 15, again, is 20 a huge deal? You know, you don't know who's taking that five.

Alex Ferrari 30:47
Yeah, I mean, we're exactly what kind of back end percentages that we got. And it's at the end of the day, it would just be like, yeah, we all pulled in 100 150,000 200,000 each, which sounds great. But, you know, if you live in LA, that's, you know, that's a month's pay. No, I'm joking.

Bradley Gallo 31:07
No, it's expensive to live here.

Alex Ferrari 31:08
Oh, it's, it's really it's ridiculous, sir, to live here. Now, let me ask you, what do you think the biggest mistake you see with first time filmmakers, you know, in either the pitching process, or working with them? Or, you know, just like pitfalls that you see, they should try to avoid. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Bradley Gallo 31:35
I mean, a lot of time, it's ego. That is usually the biggest one inability to compromise inability to, you know, adjust or see their, the script that they have, or that they wrote in another way, or make revisions or, you know, they get caught in that hole. Like, I don't want to be noted. Listen to too many podcasts about being No,

Alex Ferrari 31:57
no, no, I am not my podcaster I tell them, Look, I've had whole episodes dedicated to how to deal with notes. And you you're going to have to deal with notes like nice and but sometimes highly good. Really. Like they're not idiot executives. Like they everyone thinks like all this executive doesn't know storytelling,

Bradley Gallo 32:16
you know, they don't get to those jobs for being idiots. It's just, you know, there are times where there are executives who might have a note that doesn't totally make sense. I get that but then you explain it and and that executive understands the explanation. You know, and and I just think that's a mistake because you're getting somebody from an outside perspective, coming in and telling you from their experience, having know what gets green lights, what makes things work, right? or What even is right for story structure and character. Come on. So notes is an issue. The the attitude of uni me more than I need you. My genius,

Alex Ferrari 32:55
my genius, Sir, my shoes do not do not understand the presence, you're in my urine. My genius, I need three hours to tell the story. I need three hours to tell this story.

Bradley Gallo 33:06
And I just don't think anybody out there realizes at that earliest stage, that it's a collaborative process. Your movie at the end of the day is not necessarily because of you solely. It's because of your script supervisor, me pointing something out on the set your editor coming up with an ingenious way to fix a problem that you messed up in your shoot. Okay, you have to that's why I always think the film by Okay, I'll film by, no, it's not. It's everybody who was on that list at the end, that put that film together a film by the whole whole crew, you know what I mean? Sure, like, not a film by one person. So that that's where the ego starts. And you got to think about that. So more collaborative you can be the more taking on the best people the Best Cinematography the best for your budget that you can get, and then listening to them because you hired them because you think they're great. Yes, I am putting that together and then letting the producer sort of set the stage in the tone of the schedule, and the timing and the and the money and how that works. And then you just focus on your vision and getting everybody to just sort of to that. That's how you do it. That's the mistake of first time filmmakers

Alex Ferrari 34:20

if you can, I'll give you a little window into where my mindset was, when I first started my first production company when I was 22 was called a tour pictures. So that alone

Bradley Gallo 34:34

by the way, I am here because I had that energy and that ego at 21 to say, Well, I'm not going to be productive. So I get the aggressive I but there's a I did that in a collaborative way and anybody who worked on a film, that first film on the way I handled the process, and He always talks about it to this day. It's just it's a way of understanding and being appreciative of everybody else coming to the table to make That just happen. Not because you are the guy next Scorsese, you know or female.

Alex Ferrari 35:05

Yeah, so everyone's the next Scorsese Sofia Coppola or, or David Fincher, Chris Nolan. It's It's his Yeah.

Bradley Gallo 35:13

We can talk about people who are going to get there there are. But they come, they come once every five to 10 years. It's not necessarily you. And by the way, it's better to be you if somebody else is telling you that it is, rather than you telling us that it is.

Alex Ferrari 35:33

If you're telling yourself, you're telling everybody, you're great, as opposed to somebody other people telling you that you're great. There's a difference in that situation.

Bradley Gallo 35:40

You're the next AC, they will let you know.

Alex Ferrari 35:43

You don't have to tell anybody. Marty didn't go around saying hey, do you know who I am? I'm Martin Scorsese. And do you know what I'm doing? No, everyone else said it in the future. And then let's just hold on for that thought for a second everyone listening. Every great director that you know of Spielberg, Scorsese, Noland Fincher Kubrick, none of them went around with a billboard saying, Hey, I'm amazing. That generally is not what greatness does. greatness just works on the work and lets everybody else tell them how great they are.

Bradley Gallo 36:17

Yeah, and look, there's a huge push, which is long overdue in the industry, to get diversity and female directors going. And 50 to 60% of my films have been directed by females, not by just trying to be diverse, but by they sent a great script, or they pitched a great project, or I just thought this was a great movie to make or whatever it is. And so as long as you keep that in mind, yes, there is a significant way to go. I think it's like 4% of projects are directed by females, of course, that's in the film world of television was getting is much more progressive in that which is great. But you know, a great idea can come from anyone, any size, any color, any everything. And I think that's another mistake that I would say, first time producers make and just sort of how they were raised and how they were thought things were and because because, you know, when we mentioned greatness, we go see this building a little model. And we say essentially, we say, but it's hard to say, you know, you know, Catherine Hardwicke, or you know, Kathryn Bigelow, Kathryn Bigelow, or Catherine's, the Katherine's know, just anybody, like, it's hard to go and give you like a 10 person list. It's very done. That's, that's ridiculous. It is. So we have to get past that. And, and I'm hopeful that first time producers will will will, will be a part of that.

Alex Ferrari 37:48

Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, how can you in today's world mitigate risk when making a film? Like what what is there things that you can do to your project, in your opinion, that can help you if there is no guarantees anymore, but at least mitigate that risk a little bit, because making a feature film is probably one of the riskiest financial investments you can make. Unless you're unless you know, how to package how to do things. You have those output deals, you have those relationships, all that stuff, what can you do as an independent filmmaker to mitigate that risk?

Bradley Gallo 38:24

Well, if you don't have those relationships,

Alex Ferrari 38:27

just don't do it. Just run away

Bradley Gallo 38:29

your risk by keeping your budget as low as possible in that scenario. And to do that, you have to start with something very contained. You know, whenever you whenever you see the movies that are made by first time filmmakers, and they're just like in a room, or they're just in one location,

Alex Ferrari 38:45

or summer camp, or summer

Bradley Gallo 38:46

camp, exactly. You need to think contained to keep that budget down. If you have zero relationships. And then you relate you're, you're literally going to cold send to streamers, or festivals or producers to say look at my film, can you help me sell this? You know, that's one way. Another way is you make a short of that film, which that's been going on for since two decades. And I do have to say, it does work for me as a producer. I don't know about the streamers. But like if I get a short and then the script, and I love the short and I love the script, it certainly gives me the opportunity to say okay, you're a first time director, but I feel strongly about taking a chance on you. So just a heads up on that. And then the other thing is, you can actually it's not that hard to find out where who are and where are the the foreign sales companies. And what they do is they mitigate risk by selling pre selling your film. overseas. I did that on my first film, where they pre sell all the different territories ahead of time to get you contracts that you can then bank for your making of your movie. So if you made a $250,000 budget, but you got 100,000 by selling the world early You then have another 150,000 that you need to, to get for the US or for other remaining territories. That's another mitigation risk thing

Alex Ferrari 40:10

is there, it's pretty simple. It's pre sale still, as much as me I know before it was a lot bigger than it is now.

Bradley Gallo 40:16

No, it's it's definitely changed. And I know that everybody always talks about how that markets dead that markets dead. It's not

Alex Ferrari 40:21

dead, it's just it's on life support, it's on life support.

Bradley Gallo 40:26

It may be dead for the mid range films, right 12 to $15 million films or even the $5 million films. But when you're talking about $100,000, and you're going to, you know, making that $200,000 film, and you can sell $5,000 to each territory, it adds up very quickly. I'm just saying in terms of getting a movie made not about upside, you're losing the upside by giving that away, right, but you make your money, but you're making it right there, there's, that's another one. And then the last one is to is to actually, you know, have a script. And, and literally go into the streamers or go into the companies and get somebody to say we're gonna make this movie with you, which, you know, there are places like, you know, certain festivals enter a contest and or platforms that will do these types of things. And I've seen that, and I don't, I'm blanking on the names of them right now. But there are ways to do it that way. And you'd be surprised how many young people are in these streamers, they have so many employees. And you know, they're gonna hate me for this, but I'm just giving it away. Like I you could find them on LinkedIn. And so you see this, like, lower end, you know, just at a college executive that's, you know, in Netflix, and you can connect to them, or you know, them or you ask 25,000 people, you know, in your orbits and say, Does anyone know anyone who knows anyone who works in Netflix, or you have these Facebook's are like, connected to this guy who's who's at Facebook, it's like, there's a wait to get to these companies, through the youth, who now have to make a name for themselves in the company, who then found and discovered you with your great script that's going to be made for $20,000. And then they say, you know what, we'll give you a million dollars, go make this film, will you need it for our thriller silo? You know, yada, yada, yada, yada, or those young executives start moving up within Netflix, or Hulu or Amazon or whatever. And as they move up, they become more important and have more green lighting and set and you've been friends with them for 10 years. And now you have a new film or a new project or a new person to bring to the table. And I'm just saying or IP. I was a big time there was something called the Hollywood creative directory. Yeah, in the day, yeah. thick book, oh, yeah, to 300 names. And I called every one of them for any project, before I would fly out to LA and then meet with the five that actually answered me. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's people used to write letters in the old days, or before email. So you still have to do that just on whatever the new version of that is. You have to and the new version of that is LinkedIn, Facebook, you know, you know, whatever connection, I mean, look, I've,

Alex Ferrari 43:09

I've tweeted people and they've got I've connected with people, because I tweeted them, it's I'm a grown man saying the word tweet, it's just it, but it works.

Bradley Gallo 43:19

I mean, even on Bumble these days, you can probably see what they're doing and, and figure it out. But anyway, the point being, that you have to be aggressive, you have to care about this. And you can't think that it's about rich and famous. And if you can get that out of your system. You'll get there if you're really if you're really persistent, and generally competent, and somewhat

Alex Ferrari 43:39

count. And Nice. Nice, just nice. Nice, huge.

Bradley Gallo 43:44

It's huge. attitude. humbleness. Yes. Oh, that is so huge. Let everybody else, you know, help you along the way, because you're just a good person who's talented. But that's the way to go.

Alex Ferrari 43:56

Now, how is How is COVID affecting you right now? How do you think it's affecting the business currently? Where do you see the business? Because I know no one has a crystal ball. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on in the next six months, in the next year. What's gonna happen? Yeah, no, it's

Bradley Gallo 44:15

a good point. It's actually already affecting the industry already changing the industry in dramatic ways. We see the studios are making different types of deals of when theatrical starts and when, you know, universal afterwards that universal do that though, AMC and all that it's all ever changing. And the reason why we don't have a crystal is because we don't know how many people are going to go back to the theaters when it's all over, which by the way, is probably after November 3. But once all November 3 comes and they announced this miraculous vaccine and the miraculous treatments. You know, people go back and will they go back to the level they were before and does something like attendant does something like a Milan or whatever the new thing That comes out, you know, quiet place to do something, make everybody go out, get comfortable and feel good. And then that's about the capacity, they're only opening 30% capacity. Will they open 100% capacity? And we're losing streams wired on. All that. Yeah, screens. All that. So my answer about COVID is we in the beginning, the first three months of code, we're just like, Alright, we'll just focus on development, right development, development and get the PPP load, hold ourselves over. We're not in production, that's okay. We had a movie in post called wild mountain time, which is, you know, hopefully, eventually coming in. And then we were focused on Green Hornet development, we're focused on movies that we were going to shoot in the next couple of, you know, months, but now we'll just push. So everything just pushed a bit. And we were able to hold and sustain. Now, if after November 3, this still sticks around in a long term kind of way that isn't solved visa v these these options. I think a lot of companies are going to go down a lot. And, and that's going to be a whole new world. And even as small as our company is, and as low as our overhead is, we will we will struggle if it continues, or we can't go actually into production. And the reason why indie film is affected the most. And I love how everybody was like, well, indie films are going to go first because they'll be able to valve less crew, and they'll be no, that's not how it works. What works is the big boys go first, because they can insure themselves, they can pay for that extra PP, they have, you know, huge amounts of money that they can they can set up their franchises and shooting weird locations and, and make it all work locked down a studio that they own. Right, all that stuff is going to happen before indie, indie has to like, can't take a risk that one person gets COVID or one person gets something. It shuts us down for a week and we lose half of our budget where we're at a risk for that. So I think we're we're slowly trying to figure out how we can get into production, as Indies. But most of its focused on development, just to see what the crystal ball brings. I really don't have any answers. Other than I know that the streamers are getting more powerful. And the big studios are going to have to either buy or merge or create their own streaming systems to keep those eyeballs.

Alex Ferrari 47:18

Yeah, I mean, that's what I mean Disney, what did they have 60 70 million now subscribers, they did that less than a year, it took Netflix forever to get that I mean,

Bradley Gallo 47:26

HBO still Disney has a built in though. Brent biji has a built in like guarantee that they were going to be able to be successful. And I never doubted that. Walmart is interesting if they come into this space, because they have a huge following that they can really work. And of course, Amazon. Netflix actually although huge and not going anywhere. They're not tied to other things yet. And it'll be interesting to see if they like Amazon's tied to groceries or, or tied to books or identity or just selling they're

Alex Ferrari 47:59

not diversified. They're not diversified at all.

Bradley Gallo 48:01

That'll be interesting. Do they get acquired? Do they acquire? Do they start to diversify in some way half. That'll be very, very interesting to see what happens there. And then the middle, the little ones like the peacocks and the when they're starting to build the HPA axis as they're starting to build. You know, it seems like as you can see with HBO Max, which is very interesting. It was really I knew it right away as soon as they named it HBO Max, I was like, You know what, HBO is going to get folded into a climax, of course, HBO max thing, and he was gonna fold it. And and it's already happening. So. So peacocks might have to do something similar to what I mean, how are they gonna, you know, fold in an

Alex Ferrari 48:40

apple and there's, I just literally no, I'm behind the times. I just got Hulu, like, a month or two ago, like for the first time ever? And I'm like at Disney though. No, no, I just got the Disney. I just got Disney. I got Disney A while ago. I got it. But before I was I have kids.

Bradley Gallo 48:56

So get a package for all three. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 48:58

but I don't watch ESPN. So it's like it's a little bit cheaper. I don't know if it's cheaper. I don't know how it is I have to actually look that might be Who knows?

Bradley Gallo 49:06

It might be free.

Alex Ferrari 49:07

It might be free, right? But I just got Hulu and I was like, oh my god. There's so much content, so much TV and movies. And I was blown away at HBO because it Hulu has the best of everybody. It's got a little bit of this, a little bit of that. A little bit of this network, a little bit of that network. It is massive. So the whole streaming, the whole streaming wars as they say, I still feel there's three big players who are sitting on the sidelines with a lot of cash, who's going to come in and gobble up some people Apple, Facebook and Google and they all have the money and they all want to get into this space because they do have diversified product lines and having a Netflix like if Apple which they've already been talking to Netflix, if Apple bought Netflix.

Bradley Gallo 49:52

I mean no i mean it's it's such a juggernaut. Anybody who buys Netflix is gonna be a juggernaut.

Alex Ferrari 49:57

Right exactly, but Apple specifically Because of their infrastructure and because of what they do, I mean, imagine you buy an iPhone and you get Netflix for free like it just because it's like Amazon.

Bradley Gallo 50:09

But to get back to the COVID of it all, do you think that everybody's gonna want to stay home and just watch content all day? Like, I feel like there has to be a backlash that when this is over, or we're past or people just say whatever, like, we're good. People want experiences, they go, they love to travel, if you've been told they can't, right? They love to go out to the movies on dates and do things and like they love their cars, or I'm just how I just don't know if the Add home experience will last like that, if it will be the the opposite black backlash scenario? I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 50:45

I personally think that I can, from what I'm seeing, I think that it will won't ever get back to where it was, in my opinion, I

Bradley Gallo 50:54

don't know expecting. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 50:56

don't think you'll ever get back to January 2020. I those numbers I don't think will happen again. Because we're losing theaters, we're losing screens in that capacity within those theaters, once we open up, so it's gonna take time to get them the trend was going down. The only thing holding the cards, that house of cards up was Marvel, like, if you imagine taking Marvel out of the box office for the last 10 years. What do we have like Marvel is basically Disney has been holding up the theatrical experience between all their brands, really. And then you have some universe with Fast and Furious, maybe a James Bond here and there. But all these tentpoles is the majority of them has been Disney, Warner Brothers and universal. Those are the three big boys that basically held it all up. I don't know, if I think people will go back to theaters. I want to go back. I was attending an IMAX. I absolutely want to see that. But I'm not probably doing that this year for sure. And might be till next summer till I feel real comfortable. And I think people are I think a lot of people will rush out to go back to the theaters. But I think a lot of them are going to stay home because now they're used to it. And there's and let's not say anything. The contents pretty amazing.

Bradley Gallo 52:07

The TV shows our conference. Amazing.

Alex Ferrari 52:10

It's the stuff that we have it accessible to us at any moment. I mean, we've got

Bradley Gallo 52:16

a one thing that doesn't work is I am not gonna be able to assist nobody in the middle of this country or even in the middle class of this country. I was gonna be able to sustain on having Hulu, Showtime, Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 52:29

Oh, no, you got to pick and choose. You got to pick and choose.

Bradley Gallo 52:32

Yeah, but that sucks. Because I want let's say somebody says like, I want to know what's the best content, right? So if somebody says to me, okay, Hulu has got the best show on TV, but I don't know, I'm now going to become a member just to see the show and then take it. Like that doesn't work. There has to be a scenario where, okay, tonight. I just want to buy that show on Hulu. I'm not gonna be a member of you. Because I'm already doing this. But I'll give you $15 to have the show. We're because nowadays you just bought the DVDs of the set. Yeah, but the show didn't matter what.

Alex Ferrari 53:01

Yeah, I feel you. I don't think that'll happen. I feel you though. I wish Yeah, cuz I like I wanted to see Handmaid's Tale for a while. And now I've watched it. I'm watching it now. But before I was like, I didn't have Hulu. So I did watch it. And I you know, like I'm

Bradley Gallo 53:15

weird, though, that there's a demand for your show. And you can't find another pricing structure that allows me to, to see that show. It's like this way you should say about the theaters needs to be variable pricing, I would hope that that comes through, where if you go to see a demo that follow, it's only $6. But if you go to see a Marvel movie, it's $25 I'm totally up for that. You know what I mean? Like that. That is another way to drive people back into the theaters is variable pricing. So it should be the same thing. If I want to watch a show on Hulu, but I don't want to be a member of Hulu cuz I can't afford as a middle class person. I have to have Disney and I have to have whatever and it's like boom I can't have a $300 a month of all this.

Alex Ferrari 53:54

I mean but you're talking crazy talk sir. You're talking crazy talking. You mean you you want the entire industry to to come together and create a pay structure with multiple different companies multiple different business models. It's

Bradley Gallo 54:09

I thought we were in a dream man.

Alex Ferrari 54:12

No circus. I don't know about you. We're in a nightmare in 2020 I have no idea it's definitely the worst year

Bradley Gallo 54:17

ever. I often go through my own personal life will tell you how bad this year was was the worst year ever.

Alex Ferrari 54:22

I mean it's it's horrible. It's a horrible horribly and people like I can't wait for 2021 I'm like don't you don't know. You don't know 2021 can make 2020 look like 2019

Bradley Gallo 54:33

Do you remember when the year 2000 y2k pours the world was gonna blow up 20 years later.

Alex Ferrari 54:41

I mean, that is seriously That's exactly right. You're absolutely right. Because in I remember y2k was ridiculous. I actually watched that that made for TV movie The y2k movie. Oh, it was great playing for fall in flames were falling down. The visual effects were horrible. Oh is great, then agewell doesn't age. Well. That movie. But, but that was the people were losing their minds back then. And now 20 years later, this is exactly what's, what's going on. And I wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for attaching bankable talent, to our project base, having an amazing script, and a lot of money in the bank, besides those two things,

Bradley Gallo 55:23

partner up with the managers, the managers or producers. So if there's a manager of that bankable star, he or she would love to produce the film. So if you, if you if you, I find it interesting for somebody who doesn't have any connection doors to try to figure out how to get stars attached, you know, you have to do a couple of things. One, you have to, you know, start to network and a level that you say, Okay, this measure reps like 10 really well known actors, if I manage if I can get them a couple of good scripts, and they like them for even if it's one of their stars, that sort of like, you know, down right now that comes back, you know, there's tons of those and when john travolta went and came back, and when Michael Keaton went and came back, like they, you know, find the Michael Keaton and the john travolta is before you know, Pulp Fiction and whatever. And, and, and put them in your movies, but the manager is trying to get them work and needs to find something really great. And, and let that manager produce with you so that they feel comfortable handling the star. And, and at the same time, you get to have a movie with a banker. So I think that's another option to think about. Besides that, you know, your stunts. You know, people do stunts all the time you, you and then all of a sudden, the star finds you because they want to work with you, because you did some crazy stunt that involved the viral video that shows a good heart that this person was trying to do something like I've seen that, you know, somebody that you've never even heard of.

Alex Ferrari 56:52

We like the Fresh Prince, The Fresh Prince, the video that the serious, Fresh Prince trailer, and then Will Smith like, and by the way, that does actually look quite incredible.

Bradley Gallo 57:04

No, no, I know. But it's constantly, it's weird, little like things like that happen, they get viral, and they get called, and they get brought in and all of a sudden, they're there said like, Look, I'll do I'll do, I'll be in your short to make sure to this. And I'll be in your short, and that'll help you and lift you up in so many ways. And, you know, I think there's a bit of that going on. And then it's again, there's always the go find out what restaurant they're at, and, you know, pop the script into the back of the car. And I've heard all those stories, too. No, I think it's hard. There's no real, real answer. There's two others working for companies that do it and, you know, be you know, be in the mailroom as a young person in one of the big management companies, and you'll interact with stars, and you'll learn what people want. And you'll become friends with those managers and those agents. That's the barrier. That's the first barrier. There's no miracle beyond that, you know, right

Alex Ferrari 57:55

place, right time, right project.

Bradley Gallo 57:57

Yeah, or really good script gets around town, if it's really good.

Alex Ferrari 58:01

And since you're producing you do see the entire process from development all the way to final output and distribution. Is there a part of the distribution process you wish could change?

Bradley Gallo 58:16

A part of the distribution process? Sure. I mean, absolutely, the answer would be all those fees that they put

Unknown Speaker 58:26

that they take off, the top of the tickets

Bradley Gallo 58:28

are down here. And that by the time as they spend on PNA, right, your number gets pushed down. And but the movies doing better, but they have to get their pa and their percentages, and you just keep going further down. I would I would change the structure of where, where the producers can, you know, get some money out of the distribution agreements have gotten to a level that even I think the distributors are tired of. It could be 80 to 150 pages, just the distribution agreements. So you know, that process of precedent I, we can only do what we've done before, is archaic at times. And I do believe that even the distributor, probably frustrated by it, but it's sort of it needs to needs to change a bit. So that would be the part of the process. The other part would be a lot of times, the distributors have have to they're spending a lot of money. So they have to blanket sort of everything. They have to get billboards, and they have to get ads on TVs and they have to, instead of trying to, I guess revolutionize a system that goes directly to the consumer. It's it seems to be better for them to blanket the world, in essence, or the United States on all types of advertising platforms, including digital to get the attention for their trailers, their movies, their posters, and And it would be nice for somebody to come up with a system that sort of gives data to it. That isn't streaming. I mean, obviously, Netflix has figured out a streaming way to do it. But a data system that helps them use the money in a more specific way. So they instead of paying $30 million to or $100 million to release a movie, you can spend less and get to more people. And that's going to come through technological advancements in programs and software's.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:26

And I think after COVID COVID is going to I think I've been saying for a while I feel that Rome is burning in the distribution side of the world and in the space because the system is I think you're saying archaic, I agree with you. A lot of these companies are going to go down and

Bradley Gallo 1:00:41

that they know that they know it's that way. And and the question is, are they which ones are being inventive enough to to survive the change that's happening so fast every month? It's a new change.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:53

Yeah, exactly. And I think after the after the out of the rubble, something new has to come. Something new hasn't come yet, because I've been I've been at these film markets. And I mean, from three years ago to 2019 film, like I went to AFM I was like, This is fairly different than it was AFM is extremely different. Do you go to like those film markets,

Bradley Gallo 1:01:18

I'm actually on their panels, I actually enjoy doing the panels for them. But you know, it's a different type, what in the old days, it would be much more like very industry focused. Now, I think it's a very much independent filmmaker. I guess the word would be like fans, or educational, we're trying to break in educational, it's going more in that direction. As opposed to the industry saying I need to be at de FM specifically to do the buying and selling. I mean, they do it. There's tons of it, all the booths are there. It's wonderful. But again, even the foreign sales market, so if it wouldn't change, I'm sure AFM and all these foreign sales markets are doing a lot more virtual stuff now have to and that saves a lot of companies money because they would have to fly out get the suites spend a ton of money to be a part of that process that they have in their budget every year. And now they can't spend that as much anymore. So instead of spending like literally like 50 to 100 or even three $400,000 per company to come out here to go to Cannes right to do that. You're telling me I saved a couple 100 grand and I'm virtual and I made the same sales like there's going to be a bit of that they'll send maybe one representative instead of the whole company now is what I'm betting but don't worry

Alex Ferrari 1:02:33

but they'll but they'll still charge the filmmaker full full monty don't worry about that that's on the on the expense sheets are still going to be that three or $400,000 in expenses even though they went virtual but that's another conversation for another day.

Bradley Gallo 1:02:48

Now what now what not the world itself set it up where that they needed to be. It's just I don't know how to change the model. They have to change the model. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:58

Now what what projects do you have coming up?

Bradley Gallo 1:03:01

So I have a movie that's in post. We're in the music elements right now called wild mountain time. It starts Emily Blunt, Jon Hamm, Jamie Dornan and Christopher Walken.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:12

So you guys you guys ever heard of fantastic.

Bradley Gallo 1:03:15

It's awesome. It's really well done. It's written and directed by john Patrick Shanley, who is a famous playwright also wrote and directed doubt which won an Oscar for Viola Davison and Moonstruck, Moonstruck which won the Oscar for him for writing. And, and he's, he's, he's an amazing romantic fairy tale, comedy that is pushing all of these actors to different, you know, muscles of their own acting. And, and it's sweet. And it's family oriented. There's not one curse in the movie. And, and it's lovely, and in a time that we're dealing with sort of nothing but morose news coming at us. And so I think it's gonna play extremely well and sort of break out. And hopefully even for award season, because I think some of these actors have done an incredible job awards wise, if possible. You never know what that again, that's about timing.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:13

And when is this going to get released this year?

Bradley Gallo 1:04:16

So we're, we're, we're debating it, it's already got its distributor, which was meant to be theatrical, which is Bleecker Street. And the goal was to, you know, do this in in the fall, but now we're talking about possibly, maybe the first of the next year because they've extended the award season to like February. So like, you can qualify if you put out a movie January in February. So there's talk of that sort of feel out what's going to happen and can we release and are they 100% capacity, because a movie like this one, we make independent films, and they go out and sort of a build the old Fox Searchlight method, you build like 300 screens and then you go to 500 screens and you go to 1000 you build if it's working. Well, you don't want to do that with 30% Pass it, you want to do that with 100%? passing? Because you'll never know if it's really building. But so we have to make a decision, you know, and how we're going to do it. And, you know, there's obviously talk of things that are like that are other avenues besides theatrical? So we'll see. I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:17

Yes, it's a weird and wacky world. So

Bradley Gallo 1:05:20

that's, that's me. And then we're working on green on it all the time. You know, we're in talks with a fantastic a list writer, who will impress when, when whenever announced, and and we're going to try to, you know, go from the writer to attaching a director and then get some cast and build that the goal for that would be shooting somewhere in 2021. And maybe at the end to release in 2022. But you know, all that stuff could get pushed, we don't know. But it's a big property. We're going to reinvent. Yeah, it's not going to be in this Seth Rogen bench. It's not gonna be as dark is a dark night, but it's going to be what is right to that brand. And you know, thinking more like bondish tones.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:04

Yeah, because that that film is, you know, for better or worse, it was introduced to the world in the 60s with that, that can't be show with Bruce Lee, which was the highlight of the show was Bruce Lee. button. And then Seth was just super campy as well was kind of like a fun, funny film. But I would be interesting to see how that could be turned into a more serious James Bond esque,

Bradley Gallo 1:06:29

yes,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:30

style gold style thing. And

Bradley Gallo 1:06:33

yes, it's when we pick the right writer for that. But But no, we're going to do it as a two hander so it's going to be not the driver. Kato No, has to be the B it's actually called the Green Hornet and Kato. And so we are going to have it as a two hander, we're gonna have an interesting new sort of storyline. And we will build it for generations so that it can be, you know, multiple sequels.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:59

Absolutely. And it's, as they always say, sequels baby sequels, lots and lots as far

Bradley Gallo 1:07:04

as it's coming back to Universal universal had at one point. And so universal has been super supportive and extremely rolling out like every red carpet, you know, going after the best of the best for this movie. It's a top priority for them. And, and we're, we're so happy to have our team there.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:21

Yeah, I'm sure they want another IP that they can be you can make 1212 movies from

Bradley Gallo 1:07:27

Well, you think about it, they don't they're not like Disney is connected to marvel and Warner Brothers connected to TC and so they have the monsters universe. But in terms of the superhero stuff, and what we like about Green Hornet that's so great, is it's not a superpower type of figure, this is more of a real man superhero than it is of the spectacular, you know, big time powerful, effective, more

Alex Ferrari 1:07:49

james bond is more James.

Bradley Gallo 1:07:51

I think that's what I'm excited about. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:53

very cool. Now, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Bradley Gallo 1:08:01

I think I gave a lot of advice in this whole thing. So far. They're asking for a new piece of advice, or

Alex Ferrari 1:08:07

just a specific.

Bradley Gallo 1:08:09

If you're trying to be a filmmaker, you need to understand every single part of the process. If I were you, I would be an actor, I would be a writer, I'd be a director, I'd be a producer, I would go and put the lights up, I would learn how to move to be the grip. Like those things that they do in the film schools are for a reason. And well, you're the grip on somebody else's film. And then you're the so like, do that if you can't afford film school, and you can't afford to make a movie, try to like take little jobs and be in the construction side of the production design, like learn what everything's going on. Because no matter whether you're the producer, the director, the writer, the actor, you will now have an appreciation for the whole process, and how much hard work goes into it so that when you're talking to them, they're not low level on the totem pole. They are a job you've done that you understand. And I think that's the best way to start.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55

What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Bradley Gallo 1:09:00

or in life? Man, the lesson that took the longest to learn in the film business was that nothing is instant and that it takes for ever I projects on my development projects that have been there for 1012 years. No, still, we're still at and so I mean, that when you're young, yeah, we just go make a film and I went and made it and it happens. And as you progress in your career, that that doesn't happen and and to stay humble about that is really hard. And a lesson in life. That what was it? What was the first part

Alex Ferrari 1:09:40

it was the longest? The lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Bradley Gallo 1:09:45

Well in life, every time I say I'm not going to do something, so I'm not going to move to the valley. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go into TV. I'm not gonna whenever I say I'm not going to ends up not only happening ends up being The thing that I should have been doing a long time ago, yeah, never gonna move to LA, whatever you're fighting internally in your life that you're like, I'm never gonna do that. But you really, probably should, or really want to. I say do that as soon as you possibly can, as opposed to nice. So it's inside your body, you feel this, like internal struggle, you're stopping some flow to actually open up your life. And I can't tell you how often I have handcuffed myself still to this day, on stuff like that. I'll give you a perfect example. I've always wanted to do a podcast. I feel like I'd be pretty good at it. But you're fantastic, sir. You're fantastic. But I have this internal struggle and never actually do it. Because I'm like, just can't seem to get over that hump. And of course, there's time management issues for me. But the truth is, whatever that is, that is, is internally like, I'm not going to do this, but I really want to just open up and do it and stop being afraid. Kill fear, go for it, and do it as fast as you can. Because the older you get, the harder that is to do. The harder to take those risks. Remove those barriers. And and I can't employ that enough. That's life and film.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:18

Ops eight preach, sir, preach. That is that is some of the best advice. And after doing over 400 episodes of this show, probably one of the best answers to that question I've had and is on the show, because it is so so true. It took me forever to go out to LA from Florida. I was in Florida, and it took forever. And I might look to my girlfriend, who's not my wife, I go look, we have no kids. We do it now. Or the SEC if we if we it's gonna be harder every year we wait is going to be a bit harder to do it. And absolutely great answer. Great answer. And the toughest question of all sir, three of your favorite films of all time. Ah, I

Unknown Speaker 1:11:59

hate that.

Bradley Gallo 1:12:03

But I'm gonna name a film that nobody talks about it from. Guys don't say this is their favorite film. But it's in my top five. I have a top five and I'm sure this is in my top five. Titanic. I'd love to tell you why. Love, don't talk about it as a producer, at that time, making that movie for $200 million, making it feel and historical with a love story and action and special effects. All it was it was incredible. And it deserved to be at that time the greatest, you know selling film of all time. Titanic baffles me. I see the only movie I've ever seen in the theater. With the ticket for the movie theater five times. I mean, go back to see our movie five times. I was that was a big one. Goodfellas is a huge one. I can't stop watching Goodfellas. I'm Italian. But I'm also a Scorsese fan. You know that that's a near perfect movie. I wrote a dissertation on it. Like I'm that's a big movie. For me. goodwill hunting was a huge movie for me because at the time that those guys were 25 I think I was similar to their age. And they had written a movie won an Oscar. It had all the elements. I want Robin Williams doing a non comedy. You know the struggle of a real life person in that world. I just love that movie. It reminds me of the Dead Poets Society and the standby movies and this kind of genre that I love so good wanting was up there. Cinema paradisio one job fair. A fantastic film. Anyone who's a film lover loves that movie. Again, Italian but just just just sweet with it with a mentoree grandfather he rolls and the kid in the love of film. I mean, I even if you're not a film person cinema paradisio is just like, bam, but of course, there's incredible movies. Sure, sure, sure. Better than these three that I probably mentioned, but I just you know, I can't you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:00

those are the ones I hate. It's it's that comes to mind what

Bradley Gallo 1:14:03

affected me. It's what affected me during that. That's,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:06

that's the question I've had. I've had, I've had

Bradley Gallo 1:14:09

big time to make that that question is to say, what three films are the ones that affected you the most, as opposed to say the greatest to you of all time? Just an idea just

Alex Ferrari 1:14:18

I you know, I mean, after after 400 episodes, I might have to switch you right? You might have a bit but I've actually had people come on. I've actually had people that are big time filmmakers and they'll say the weirdest movies I'm like, really like like, I would think you would say Goodfellas or you know Seven Samurai or Citizen Kane or what have you. And they'll say like you know them Yeah, but like I had one guy said into the dragon and I'm like really into the dragon like I love into dragon Enter the Dragon. And I was like, I'd be I love to dragon but on the scope of like the greatest films of all time. It's It's wonderful, but it's from this from this person. I was like, Wow, he says, I saw when I was a kid and in fact To me,

Bradley Gallo 1:15:01

it affected me exactly. That way. I'll tell you a movie that affected me. But I don't consider the greatest film of all time, but I can't stop referring to endorse talking about a movie that nobody's seen. I'd be shocked if you saw it. It's called stir of echoes.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:16
Yes. The one with Kevin Bacon.

Yeah. And it was directed and it was written and directed by David Co Op.

Bradley Gallo 1:15:24
Yeah. David cap, right. Yeah, yeah.It's did no business so nobody knew about it. But like, I had that DVD I had this special edition. Just the end Get Shorty. Another one that I could not get off of get you a just a comedy side of like, you know, the john travolta being like, sort of that mafia type. It was just weird. I just had I just had Barry on I had Barry sonnenfeld on the show the other day.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:51
Yeah. And and we talked about it. Sure. I mean, that's one of my favorite interviews of all time.So he's so good. It was like, first 10 minutes, just the first 10 minutes alone is how he started off as an adult film. cinematographer. And that's the first 10 minutes and the most

Bradley Gallo 1:16:09
graphics. Well, that's everybody knows that about him. The great

Alex Ferrari 1:16:12
most graphic conversation about a porn set I've ever heard in my entire life. Within the first 10 within the first day, he goes, how hard you want to be Go Go bury. You can go as hard as you like, sir. Okay. And he lays in within the first 10 minutes. I'm like, this is gonna be an amazing conversation. And we did to our conversation. such an amazing guy. I just love talking.

Bradley Gallo 1:16:36
Listen to that one. That's awesome. That honor that fun. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:16:40
Yeah, it's available. I'll send you a link. I'll send you a link. But listen, we can keep talking for at least another two hours. Bradley but I appreciate you coming on the show. I appreciate your your time and and you dropping amazing knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much for doing what you do. And I look forward to seeing all your projects.

Bradley Gallo 1:16:57
All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate it be well.

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BPS 251: How to Sell an Original Show to Hulu with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti

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Our guests this week are stars from the early 2000s teen drama television hit show, One Tree Hill, James Lafferty, and Stephen Colletti. The buzz the show had was undeniable, and if you were a fan of the show, then you would be glad to know that your favorite characters, Nathan Scott and Chase Adams have a new project together and they talk all about it this week’s episode. 

But first, a summary of our guests’ track records in the industry. Both James and Steven landed their first acting gigs in their late teens and have since expanded their skills to writing, producing, and directing. 

James, started out as a series regular on One Tree Hill in 2003, having appraised one of the lead roles of the show for which he was nominated four times by the Teen Choice Awards. Actor and television personality. Stephen joined as a regular after recurring his role as Chase Adams since the show’s premiere.

Half-brothers Lucas and Nathan Scott trade between kinship and rivalry both on the basketball court and in the hearts of their friends in the small, but not so quiet town of Tree Hill, North Carolina. Here’s a first look at the characters in its pilot episode:

Steven has consistently worked in film and television hosting MTV specials Beach House, Spring break and the VMAs backstage live among others. He’s made appearances on TV shows MTV reality television series Laguna Beach: The Real Orange County, VH1 2013 romance drama, Hit The Floor, and Taylor Swift’s White Horse music video.

Between 2009 to 2012, James began testing out the directing pond. He directed four episodes of the nine-season run of One Tree Hill and five episodes of The Royals, which he played another lead role on. In 2016, he briefly graced our screens in six episodes of Underground, the series, as Kyle Risdin.
With the country on the brink of the Civil War, the struggle for freedom is more dangerous than ever. Underground follows the story of American heroes and their moving journey to freedom.

The guys creatively reunited to create an original comedy television series, Everyone Is Doing Great that’s streaming on Hulu. They co-directed, produced, and wrote the show.  What was remarkable was that they sold an independently produced show to a major streamer, which never happens. We dive in on how they were able to do that. 

The seven episodes show follows Seth and Jeremy, two guys who enjoyed relative success from ‘Eternal’, a hit television vampire drama. Five years after their show has ended, they lean on each other as they struggle to reclaim their previous level of success and relevance, awkwardly navigating the perils of life and love amidst a humorously painful coming of age.  

I had lots of laughs with these two and can’t wait for you to listen.

Enjoy my conversation with James Lafferty & Stephen Colletti.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:24
I like to welcome to the show James Lafferty and Stephen Colletti How you guys doing?

James Lafferty 3:58
Fantastic.

Stephen Colletti 3:59
Thanks for having us, man

Alex Ferrari 4:01
Thank you for being on the show. Man. I heard we have we have some friends in common in Dinesh Nelms who were on my show a while ago promoting or will talking about their whole career. But at the time promoting fat man, which is obviously one of the best Christmas movies ever made. It in my audience was going crazy for that episode, because it is just just hilarious if anyone listening has not listened to go find that episode on the back catalogue because the boys were great. And then they reached out to me. They're like, Hey, I got these guys who did this insane thing. We're part of this project and they pitched it to me and I was like, well, I've never heard of that before. How the hell did these guys shoot an independent series that got picked up by a major streamer? Like I know they picked up indie films because my film was picked up. My first film was picked up by them for a license for a year back when they were doing that kind of stuff, but a show is unheard of. So we're gonna get into The weeds about how you guys did that, because I'm fascinated it's really, really want to know how the hell that happened. But before we get into it, how did each of you get into the business? We'll start with you, James.

James Lafferty 5:12
Yeah, so I started really young, I started doing extra work. Actually, when I was about six years old, my, my mom would bring my brother and I and from Riverside County to LA just to get on two sets, just to sort of expand our world a little bit. We didn't really know, you know, at a young age, what we want it to be, you know, obviously, we didn't, you know, we weren't like, theater kids or stage kids or anything like that. It was really just for a mom to, you know, help us understand that the world was bigger than a small town that we came from. And we just fell in love with it. Of course, I mean, you can't really take a kid to a film set and play around with the kids and get to experience that atmosphere and have them not catch the bug. And sure enough, we did. And so from from about 10 years old on I started auditioning. And from there, it was just like a steady progression of you know, working my first Mervyn's commercial at 12, to, you know, getting a guest spot on, you know, Picket Fences or something like that. And then, you know, just continuing on from there to reoccurring roles. And I basically, yeah, by the time I was a senior in high school, I had booked this little web team drama called One Tree Hill, which ended up becoming sort sort of hit, I guess, I made at least ran for a very long time. Until about 2011. And, yeah, that sort of takes that takes us up to, you know, I guess, when I was an adult, right, you know, that's sort of how I was my way and really,

Alex Ferrari 6:40
but how about you Stephen?

Stephen Colletti 6:42
Yeah, I was a little more unconventional, I, I kind of first started working the business in 2004. The working with MTV, I started out doing a reality show with them completely victim of circumstance out of nowhere, did this show land in my community and dropped my lap. But I was interested in in hosting and wanting to get in there in entertainment. And so, in fact, one thing I want to do was, was to be a vj. You know, watching Carson Daly growing up and doing that gig, I thought that was a pretty cool thing and wanted to pursue that. So I looked at MTV is like, Well, alright, I feel like these people can get me in over there. So what I'm doing the show called Laguna Beach, for a season two seasons. And then I started hosting for MTV. And then I did a little bit of acting growing up it you know, just just in school and stuff and enjoyed it. But didn't think it was gonna be something I'd take seriously. And the more I kind of got into hosting wasn't so excited about it found acting interesting, wanted to study it and did and so as I was hosting for MTV, I was working on on acting and studying and from there, I booked my first film something called it was actually wind up being havoc, too. It wasn't that wasn't it wasn't supposed to be the sequel originally. But that's what who today new line, I think it was, it's what they want. I'm selling it as called normal adolescent behavior. And in that film, actually worked with a girl named Hilary Burton, who worked on One Tree Hill, and I want about shooting for One Tree Hill and getting a part there. And then it was kind of set on working on the show with James for about five or six years.

Alex Ferrari 8:34
So you guys, so you guys are coming out this whole thing very unconventionally, because you're coming from the acting side. So you guys were on a hit show, for a good amount of time. You've been obviously you guys have been on sets a lot throughout your careers up to this point. And then what what made you guys get together and say, you know, we're going to take the power in our own hands and build our own content and try to sell that. So you essentially, stop asking permission to do what you love to do and start creating those opportunities for yourselves very, very Ben and Matt, goodwill hunting style in that way, so what what made you as actors decide to like, you know, is there something that caused you to do it? Or is it something that tickles your fancy or just like, you know, what we you really need to kind of get our own stuff going?

James Lafferty 9:22
Yeah, I think it was a mixture of things, as it always is, I guess, you know, it's, it's, it has a little something to do with, you know, coming off of a TV show and thinking things are going to be easy and actually not being that easy. It's you know, getting to a certain point in your life as an actor or I guess, as a professional in this business where you realize that things are cyclical, like you're going to have, you're going to have times that are you know, really good for a while you're gonna have a great cycle and then you're going to have a really dry cycle and then you're going to it's going to come back it's a sort of pendulum swing situation and you start to realize that at a, I guess around for us, it was around that 2526 27 age when One Tree Hill was ending, right? But then also, you know, I don't think you can be on a show for that long and not learn something, I mean, really have to not be,

Alex Ferrari 10:09
you have to be pretty dense and you have to be pretty.

James Lafferty 10:11
Yeah. And I think, you know, we, we were always paying very close attention, because we always knew that behind the camera was where we want to be eventually we just we knew that we would want to tell stories, you know, for me a big part of it was being able to step behind the camera and direct on One Tree Hill. And then I know, you know, Steven can speak to, you know, the fact that he was producing coming out of One Tree Hill and stuff. But um, you know, that's, that's sort of where I was coming from is like, I know, I want to tell stories. But you know, and I know, I'm gonna want to write, right, so I'm writing scripts, and these scripts are like high concept and very expensive. And this is obviously as you know, and your audience will know, these, these ideas are very hard to get made. So at a certain point, for me, it was like, Okay, what can I make, that can be made? You know, what can, what can we make that that can be made for a reasonable budget, and that we can actually shoot so that we can prove to people that we can tell stories, and hopefully, take that next step as storytellers not just people who are, you know, auditioning for jobs?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
How about you, Steven?

Stephen Colletti 11:16
Well, I think it's, I feel like it was always somewhere. Yeah, it was something in the back of my mind knowing that, you know, in this industry, especially just with technology, these days, what it affords you, you better be able to figure out stuff on your own, because, you know, I just, I know that where I stand in this industry, and I was not, you know, God's gift to the entertainment industry as an actor. And so I knew to do certain things that I wanted to do, you know, you're gonna have to create those opportunities for yourself. And so I, you know, it's just kind of been a steady evolution of, you know, trying different things, you know, realizing I had all my eggs in that inactive basket, when I was in my 20s. And realizing that the opportunities that were coming to me, were kind of out of my control, you know, you go audition for things, and something's you really, really want and it's almost like, the more you want something more, you want it not getting it, and then a job that you're like, yeah, I really don't care if I get this job, and it's like, you booked it, you know, you gotta get I gotta go take it, because I need a job. So I think that, you know, to really, as I got a little bit older, and a little more, Yeah, a little more edgy about the business realize, I, if you know, what I want to do, I'm gonna have to, you know, take the bull by the horns and try to figure out to do it on my own. Because, you know, that's not going to all just line up with landing the perfect audition at the best time and booking it and then Off you go, you know, it's just not, that does not happen every day or, you know, likely at all. So, you know, yeah, I think from there, you know, it's, it's been an evolution of certain projects that, you know, haven't gone very far. And, and just, you know, whether it be a little bit of writing a little bit of producing, but, you know, kind of learning is something from each thing. And then, you know, with this one, with, everyone's doing great kind of felt like, all the pieces started to, you know, fall into place where, okay could take, you know, what I've learned up to this point, and in trying to get stuff made, and go out there also to say, you know, partner up with somebody, you know, realizes I can't do stuff, you know, on my own, and, you know, you got to get good people around you to help you, you know, you know, fill in your weaknesses and get, you know, get things made.

Alex Ferrari 13:29
So, how did you guys come up with everyone is doing great.

James Lafferty 13:35
Yeah, it was, it was sort of out of necessity, I guess. You know, I think we had, we had lived enough life coming out of One Tree Hill to realize that we had lived a pretty absurd life in our 20s. And to have that amount of success at such a young age is completely it's absurd, it's, it's insane what happened, and we were insanely fortunate. And then to have, you know, some some years that weren't so successful, you know, to really humble you and to make you look back and go, Okay, I see a sort of like arc forming here, where, you know, we had a late coming of age, you know, and we had a late coming of age in this really crazy industry, where the hilarious things are happening all around us. And there's, you know, extraordinary, extraordinary things happening all around us that really make for great comedy. You know, and we've never, we've never felt sorry for ourselves throughout this whole process of, you know, auditioning and rejection and all this stuff. Like, I think, you know, we've always found the narrative that it's, you know, a really tough thing to do a little bit tiresome, because it's what we chose to do, right like nobody's gonna feel sorry for you because you just keep coming back for more and you know, you're always going to come back for more. So really, for us the the catharsis and all this was just a laugh at it. So get together to share our stories, and they'll be like, you're never gonna believe what happened at this audition today. Like you're never gonna believe what I saw this party or this person that I met or, and, and and just laugh at these things, and you You know, this is something that we really wanted to bring to a show that that lined up with our comedic sensibilities, right. Like, we knew that we wanted to make a show. That was up to the standards of the shows that we love to watch. We love shows like fleabag, you know, catastrophe. We love the trip with Steve Coogan and Rob bryden. Like, we love will that best show on HBO doll on em, things that are feel really naturalistic and feel really dry. And mind humor, a lot of out of a lot of like, awkward and cringy moments, to the punch lines. And we we just felt like we were like living in this world where all of a sudden, we could see, we could see this happening around us, we were sort of observing it. And so we decided to sort of, I guess, take that and, and try to create some characters that we could map on to these things, and onto this world and into these situations, and create a story around it that would also line up with our storytelling sensibilities, which is really we gravitate to stories about, you know, friends, families, and, you know, families basically, that full of people that are just there, they probably shouldn't be friends, but they have this shared experience, or they have this shared past, where they're sort of forced to continue to deal with each other. And whether or not they stick together is based on whether or not they love each other. Right. Like, those are the stories that we're onto. So it was just all these things as sort of confluence of things that came together to at this time to make us realize that we might have, you know, a story to tell here through everyone's doing great.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
Now, Stephen did teach your agents and managers and your friends around you say you guys are absolutely that this is not going to work. No one's ever, you know, done an independent show before and sold it anything major before me did that happen?

Stephen Colletti 16:44
You know, I got kind of the status quo from the the reps were, that's, that's really nice. You know, they're like, Okay, you go to your little bit, you're gonna be auditioning, right? You should still be sending you stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, no, of course, we please do. Like, okay, just making sure. But you know, I think that they hear that and the expectation on there. And it's like, oh, man, I got a nickel for every time I heard a client talk about something that they're making on their own and never seen it even myself, they probably have a few nickels for me, because I definitely have done it before. As you know, try to shake them down to help you, you know, get some traction on a script or, like get something, you know, get them to read something that you wrote. So, there, you know, there was that kind of like, you know, yeah, they're just playing along. It friends. It was, you know, there was we had some good support from friends at rooting us on like, you know, I think people in the industry were like, Fuck, yeah, man, like, go do it. You know. And I think that it also, you know, with the community of people that God around our show, when we were crowdfunding, I mean, that really helped lift us up and continue. have us continue to move forward on it was that, you know, people were on board and excited, they heard about the concept, they would just be looking at a log line and being like, you know, what, that seems interesting. I'd be into that. And we're like, yeah, like, I want to contribute to the show. Go on and do it. So I think it was, you know, for the most part, it was positive feedback, and to have like, our communities of family and friends, saying, you know, go for it is really cool, and definitely helped propel us to the finish line.

Alex Ferrari 18:22
So I find it fascinating. You said that the agents play the long because I actually, you know, earlier in my career was I had a full films, and I got a star attached. And it was, you know, she'd done TV, and she had done a few movies and things like that, and we go in, and what you're saying is exactly what the agents would do. They came in, they did this show, they sat around the conference table, like, okay, so you know, oh, yeah, we can go out to this person. And, yeah, we might know this person to try to kind of play along and I was so green. I'm like, Oh, my God, we're gonna get this movie made. This is amazing. And then, you know, nothing ever panned out. But they needed to play along to keep the client happy. So I'm so like, I didn't know that was a thing. And when you just said it, like, that makes all the sense to me. Because I've been in that room when we're like, oh, yeah, cuz she's the producer on this. And she wants to put this all together. I was like, No One No wonder nothing.

Stephen Colletti 19:14
You don't listen for us. You know, it's like they don't they know, the road. And it's enough. It's time. They don't have the time for that. They're like, Look, this is the bottom line game. I'm here with my clients for like, you know, like, I know if this person is getting started on a project, like this film is not going to be made next month in six months. And wow, if they make it in a year, that's incredible. So they're like, I don't I don't have time for something that's two years out.

Alex Ferrari 19:40
To get paid Now. Now. I need my 10% I need my 10% I need my 10% Yeah. So

Stephen Colletti 19:46
10% in 2024 Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 19:50
luck. Good luck. Yeah, exactly. Good luck to you, my friend. But you're still gonna go out. We could still send you out. Right. We could sit now we could still say yeah, I love that because we still need to make our money off. Right now so it's, it's fascinating.

James Lafferty 20:02
You're gonna be supportive 100% Oh, yeah. Just just means like, you know, saying like, yeah, sure we'll help out. And then we'll step in later.

Alex Ferrari 20:12
Yeah, we if you bring in 5 million, we can get the rest. up, bring 5 million and Will Smith to the table, we can get you. The rest of it. No problem. No problem. Yeah, that's, that's the way the game is played. So Alright, so guys, how did you put this this cell financed? I mean, because it doesn't look like it's like a you know, it's not Game of Thrones for sure. So I'm assuming the budget was, you know, indie. But how did you guys raise the budget?

James Lafferty 20:43
Yeah, well, it was, um, it was, I guess it was a sort of a tiered process, sort of just like the entire process was, you know, we, we didn't know that we were going to shoot our entire season independently. We started off with a pilot, and the pilot was self financed. And very naively, we thought that we would execute this pilot and the money be money, and they would sell it. And then somebody would be like, Oh, yeah, we want this to be a, you know, who the original or whatever. Yeah, that didn't happen. Didn't happen for a lot of reasons. You know, first of all, I think the pilot that we made was a pilot that we wanted to make, and we were really, really proud of it. But it was 2017. And, you know, a lot of the streamers that exist now didn't even exist back then. And a lot of the, you know, bigger ones. Now, we're just sort of booting up. And you know, they're different departments and sort of really defining what kind of things they want to do. And we just didn't anticipate the challenges of shopping around and independent TV show, we didn't realize just how kind of, I guess, unprecedented it was, it's just not something that happened, there was no template for selling it right. further than that, we didn't know that we even needed a sales agent, really, we didn't know the sales agent game, right? We were having our talent reps reach out to development people at these companies. And seeing if, like, you know, they would get it, you know, if they could push the ball forward. We weren't even we weren't considering the acquisitions departments and things like that. You know, we'll talk about this later about, you know, we didn't actually know how sort of nebulous that world was as well, and how many gatekeepers that there were and how relationship based it is. So we just didn't have any of these relationships or any of these connections. So once we realized we weren't going to sell the pilot. And that if we were going to produce the rest of the season episodes, two, three through eight, we were going to have to do it independently. We were we had always considered the crowdfunding route. But we didn't know for sure if we wanted to take that plunge. It was our last, it was really our last sort of final option, because we had heard that it's going to be the hardest thing you ever do. Yes, I've done it's over like, yeah, and you know, the gnomes brothers, who you had on in the past. Like they, they did it as well. And I watched them do and I watched them break their backs for the money they made for post on their first movie or one of their first movies. And, you know, they were they were encouraging us to do this as well, like the Noah's brothers had our backs on the crowdfunding front, they're like, you should do this, because it's going to help you retain creative control whatever money you can raise your budget, it's going to help you maintain that leverage, and that control over the project or for its life. And so yeah, I guess you know, once we had exhausted all options, we took that plunge, that crowdfunding plunge crowdfunded For how many days even 45 days?

Stephen Colletti 23:40
Yeah, at least 45? Not all July, June, July, and then we extended a little bit into August. So what's it been up to about three months?

Alex Ferrari 23:48
And what platform? Did you guys use Kickstarter, Indiegogo,

Stephen Colletti 23:50
Indiegogo.

Alex Ferrari 23:51
Right? And how much did you guys raise?

Stephen Colletti 23:54
we wind up raising about 270k. And that's after. Yeah, after fees. And we had to take some money for of course, for the perks and stuff like that, we were able to, to use about at least 200 210 215 in our budget. And then we had to bridge the gap a little bit to get to where we can, you know, still have enough to finish the season.

Alex Ferrari 24:18
That's amazing. But that's, that's a success man. Like you pull in over a quarter million on a on a platform for a television or streaming series. That's a pretty, it's a pretty good goal. I guess you tapped into a lot of your fans and things like that. To help with that.

Stephen Colletti 24:33
Yeah, no, I know, for sure.

James Lafferty 24:35
Yeah.

Stephen Colletti 24:36
To have people, you know, contribute for a you know, a show they haven't seen before, you know, this was not the reunion or these equal or something. So right, you know, people were having to take a leap of faith for us. And yeah, I think that was that. You know, we struggle a little bit out the gate, trying to get people on board for this, but it was, you know, Really, it was that community behind, you know, One Tree Hill that, you know, got involved and and wanted to see us, you know, where we wanted to support us and whatever our next venture was because they knew that maybe, you know, the reunion wasn't gonna be happening anytime soon. So yeah, incredible community of fans, they're been very loyal. And we're very grateful for that. Because without them, this doesn't happen. And it ultimately was, you know, about two weeks in we're like, we need some sort of kick, you know, we really need something to to boost the finances there, or at least the on the money coming in for the Indiegogo project. And we, we came up with the idea of, of doing some live watches, where we would invite some cast members from the show from our old show, once your Hill and and watch an episode. And, you know, it offered us a great opportunity for us to, you know, see some of our cast members that we hadn't seen for a while and kind of, to fill a little bit of that, that want for what the fans are looking for is they're trying to hear the news, and whether or not the show's gonna have a union or whatnot is like, well, they just want to see some of these people back together. And, you know, to get, you know, four or five of us sitting in a room chatting about the show, it was, you know, an experience that fans really enjoyed. And they came back, you know, four or five times as we did a few of them, and they wind up just being, you know, the most lucrative thing for us in our project. Yeah, raising up. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 26:25
mean, you leverage what you have. So, you know, if you've got a fan base, and I'm assuming, how did you get to that fan base? I mean, did you just hit the Facebook groups? I mean, I don't think you have an email list with a bunch of One Tree Hill fans. So like, how did you how did you reach out to these these communities and get them to, to watch and to contribute?

James Lafferty 26:43
Yeah, are following us on social media were a huge part of it. I mean, pretty much everybody that follows me is a One Tree Hill fan, unless they're my mom or my friend. So you know, that was that was that was really important is being able to connect with people through social media. That was what brought in, you know, I think our first wave of people, but I think another really important thing was that we were able to show these people that that just, you know, this first wave of people that we have a product that you're going to like, right, because the challenge with an arts project is that you can't really show them the content of the arts project, right? You can't really like have virtual screening for people on the movie you're trying to make. Fortunately, we were making a TV show and we had shot a pilot. And we were able to take this pilot around to some festivals that were really, really great, like at x festival is a television festival in Austin, that showcases all kinds of television. And you know, they they showcase a few independent pilots every year, they chose us for one of theirs. Series fest is an all Independent Television festival that they hold in Denver, Colorado. At the time, New York television festival was one. So there was just, there's a bunch of different festivals that we were able to hit and we were able to invite fans out, you know, people that knew about us from One Tree Hill, and invite them to the screenings, talk to them after these screenings, meet them after these screenings and get there first of all, creatively get their feedback, right? See if the show was actually funny to them. But then also they were able to see the first episode of the show. And then you know, tell other people on our Instagram feeds or on our Twitter feeds or you know, on the message board on Indiegogo like yes, this is a good show, you will like this show, you know, there's there's something here. So I think that that was a huge, huge asset to us being able to take out that sort of, you know, if this wasn't a TV show, you call it like a proof of concept, right? Wasn't TV shows a pilot. And it just it just the timing of that taking out those festivals, we in hindsight, we realized just how incredibly, you know valuable that was for us.

Alex Ferrari 28:47
And how many days did you shoot? Like how many total days? I mean, assuming you just sat and just just shot it all out in a row. Right? So how many days did you shoot eight episodes and each episodes? What 30 minutes? Less than that?

Stephen Colletti 29:00
proximately 30 Yeah, we got we got anywhere from 25 to 37 minutes. so thankful for the streaming services to be flexible. Right. Exactly three never to kill as many babies as we had expected. But yeah, we want up shooting over the course of about 35 days. eight episodes that's a lot and yeah, obviously block shooting everything getting locations wrapped up in was was you know key. Michelle Lange Who?

James Lafferty 29:31
those seven episodes right that we shot because we had already shot the pilot the year before and then we shot seven episodes, this seven additional episodes over that 35 day period.

Stephen Colletti 29:40
Thereafter, minus one is seven that is confirmed. This is why we make a great team. So we Yeah, and Michelle Lange who works with the nelmes brothers. She's married to Ian there they she you know was so clutch in getting ours. Schedule all dialed up and and and making sure that you know, we're maximizing our locations. And it was fluid to that schedule was changing constantly. And she did a good job matching mapping it out in the beginning. And we kind of had an idea of where we were going to be for the next 35 days from the jump, of course, but, you know, she was always kind of looking to adjusted, where can we make Where can we save a buck? And you know, having somebody like that on our team, just, you know, thinking about things that we are not even anywhere on this same universe and thinking about what that scheduling and how we can save some money. Because especially when we're doing our shoestring budget was key. So we it was it was hectic, but we we got it done. And you know, Michelle Lange was a big part of that.

Alex Ferrari 30:45
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So you guys have been you guys have been on onsets pretty much, almost all your life. At this point, you were like, really were on sets for a long time. And a couple and you've directed, you know, a few episodes here and there. How much did that play in in the success of what you guys we're doing it because obviously you knew what a professional quote unquote set was. But you knew that One Tree Hill set is definitely not going to be the all the bells and whistles that you're going to be using on this show. So how was that transition? Because you know, you're used to being on I've been on network sets, they're they're nice, they're plush. The craft, the craft is fantastic lunches, you know, lobster, you know, it's really it's really a nice scenario, depending on the budget of the show. But generally speaking, that work shows are really nice. So how was that transition from? Hey, I need something Oh, we have a department for that, too. We need something figure it out. Hmm.

James Lafferty 31:50
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. Because I think there are things that we that we learned, you know, from being on larger sets that helped us, and there were also things that totally blindsided us as well, right. You know, there was, I think that the general concept of time management really sinks in, when you work in television, you know, on whatever budget you're working on, like, you know, working on, whatever, whatever network TV show, you're still trying to shoot an ungodly amount of pages a day, no matter what, there's not enough time, you never have enough days to get the show to get the episode that you want to shoot. And as an actor, you sit around and you just watch people like run around like their hair's on fire, trying to make this impossible thing possible. So and you learn about time management really well, because you're always watching your clock, right. And so I think that's one thing that we were able to carry into, to everyone is doing great is his clock management, right is that time management is is making sure that, you know, we have contingency plans that we have this space in our schedule to shoot things that we might have missed, or that we're able to adapt, if you know, we didn't get this one thing at this location, what other location can we put it that we had seen enough of this sort of sleight of hand be played, you know, throughout our careers to be able to employ it ourselves, and obviously, with the help of our producing team, but then also, there's nothing that can compare you to, you know, or that can prepare you to for the, you know, first week of our shooting in Stevens actual apartment, and you know, the fact that there's going to be 35 crew and a two bedroom apartment, you know, wearing their work boots.

Alex Ferrari 33:27
And did you get from it? Did you get permission? Or are you did get permission? You didn't gorilla?

Stephen Colletti 33:32
Yeah, but you know, we, you stretch permission for a couple of people just for like, two days? Not necessarily. We won't say how many people were there. And we won't say For how many days but it didn't really work out to that

James Lafferty 33:49
when I quoted. And you know, you gotta like hand it to Stephen, who is you know, this is his apartment, he's producing, writing the show, he's directing one of the episodes that we're shooting at that location, and he's gonna be thinking about all these different things. And he's also thinking about the fact that like, this person today didn't wear social soft soled shoes. Yeah. So like, we might get kicked out, you know what I mean? Or he's worried about you know, getting Starbucks gift cards to all of his neighbors and making sure that they got them so that we've got you know, we're in the good graces of the building. You know, it's not a it's not a completely conducive mindset to creativity. Nothing can really prepare you for that nothing in our experiences on

Stephen Colletti 34:29
me right now. Seriously? Yeah, like you said,

Alex Ferrari 34:30
You started you're starting to see the twitching I could see the Twitch, you

Stephen Colletti 34:34
know, how we I don't know how we got through those those days. But yeah, I mean, I got sick in the middle of it as well.

Alex Ferrari 34:41
Oh, yeah.

Stephen Colletti 34:43
Anytime an apple box was just scraping across the floor. Mentally murdered that individual and then carried on with my scene.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
I'll tell you what, man like I've shot so much in my own places during my career like on my own house like my first my first like $50,000 I spent on my commercial demo reel back when I was doing commercials, which I shot on 35 and all that. I did it in my house, I'd like to two full shoots in my house like doing different areas, like in my living room, I'd set up a set. And I like because I had to. And that exact thing someone like a grip would just drag something along. You just like trying to direct it. And then you have the money. So this is basically exactly the only thing that you did that I didn't do is I was an act in it. Thank God. So I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything else. But I feel you man like you that Apple box kiss drags, oh, god,

Stephen Colletti 35:34
oh, we had a, I had this, this deck. That was great. Because you know, people can go have lunch out there and we can store gear out there. And but you know, we fired up breakfast there at like 615 in the morning.

James Lafferty 35:52
Oh my god, how did we get away with it?

Alex Ferrari 35:54
Starbucks Starbucks cards go a long way.

Stephen Colletti 35:57
Yeah, basically, you know, there was some supportive people, some supportive neighbors, but then there wasn't some supportive neighbors. And there was we did get a noise complaint, like on the first day, you know, there was a the manager who I'd spoke to how to talk to somebody else. And so they showed up and they were like, what are you doing? And I was like, you know, I talked to all that I Okay, all right, right on. But at first there I thought, you know, they had come to basically shut us down. So yeah, I mean, it's still Yeah, once

Alex Ferrari 36:34
he stressed out, he is stressing, it's over, Bro. Bro, it's over. It's over.

Stephen Colletti 36:38
It's felt like a mistake. Because after all this build up to get to this point of wanting to shoot the show. And it's our own. We're so excited. And we got our first couple days of shooting. And then all of a sudden, it's just back to back days, like in my apartment with one thing after another and I couldn't you know, once we got to the finish line, and we were like halfway through that last day there and I'm like, Okay, we got it now I know we're gonna get through this location. The shoot started for me but I couldn't tell you what happened on any of the scenes my characters department because I've my brain was just ping pong off the walls.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
And that's it they I mean for filmmakers listening now, man, until you're in the into you're in the weeds, or as they used to say like when you're in war, when you're in this shit. You really, really feel it because, man it's 1000 things going on at the same time. You've got money dealing with you've got your act, you You're acting, which is insanity to me. Like I can't even begin to begin to try to think about acting in a scene while doing all this stuff. It's it's brutal, man. But I think this is a comment that no one's ever asked this is a sentence has never been uttered in Hollywood. All I have is too much time and too much money to make this project like that. That's never been uttered in Hollywood since the days a fucking Edison. No one is ever said that.

James Lafferty 38:02
Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 38:03
That you know, it's it's insane. So

Stephen Colletti 38:05
we got another week. You sure you don't want to use it?

James Lafferty 38:08
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Good. Do you want another month? I mean, we could just do another month if you want. Like, yeah, you've never you never hear that. It's insane.

Stephen Colletti 38:18
I mean, I go to Panama and get a shot on the beach. You don't want it? You don't

Alex Ferrari 38:22
want it. That's fine. We'll just green screen it. That's fine. Yeah, I can imagine the culture shock for you guys as being, you know, regular actors on a hit show. And never having to think about any of that. Like even when you were directing on the show, you still never had to think about that. You were just directing the show. And it's all your family and friends around. You know, you've been with these people forever. You don't think about all that other stuff. Really? I mean, time management. Yeah. But when everything's on your shoulders, I gotta believe that the culture shock must have been what at what moment? Did that hit? You guys? Like, was it day one? When you said on the on day one on the pilot even like, Did you just go? Oh, we're not in Kansas anymore. Like, what was that? I mean, I'm sure someone told you. It's like, it's like having kids. Someone could tell you you're gonna have kids. But it Oh, it's gonna be bad. You're gonna lose sleep until you have a kid you have no idea. It's like writing your face. So when was that moment? Yeah, guys.

James Lafferty 39:21
I think for me, it was when we were at Stephens apartment. And I don't know, this is probably the first time we've ever told the story might get crucified by our producers. But I just think it's too interesting. You know, we had at when we started shooting, we had about two thirds of our budget. And we had a contingency plan in place like we were starting in Stephens apartment. We're gonna shoot all this contained stuff. We knew that we could shoot a version of our season for two thirds of the budget, right? We just have to change a lot once we left Stephens department. And, and we were still waiting to see if financier was going to come on and cover that that final third. And we were getting to the point I was probably like four or five days in when it was really like a breaking point and Michelle laying had become set and like Sydney and Steven down and city and and Ashdown and Jaya Durango or other executive producer. And you know that like that was like the rest of the crew setting up a shot over at Stephens apartment and we are like down the hall and sort of around the corner and like a little outdoor lounge we can see across the gap to Stephens apartment, and it was nighttime. And Michelle is walking us through the fact that we might not get this money and could change a lot. And but everything's gonna be okay. I remember just having like a bit of like an out of body experience where I just sort of like, I just sort of went numb, and I just sort of left like I was sort of seeing the world from behind my eyes. And I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what they talk about.

Alex Ferrari 40:45
This is I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying.

James Lafferty 40:47
I don't mean to do much. And it's all on you. And yeah, something either really, really miraculous is going to happen, or this is going to be a horror story. You know what I mean? It's like, this is the moment that it hinges on. And thankfully something miraculous happened in that particular scenario. But that was a real. Yeah, that was a real moment. For me.

Alex Ferrari 41:08
It was it was like, you guys had a coming to Jesus conversation, like come to Jesus conversation is basically the set up is like this guy's Look, it's this is. And I've had, by the way, I've had those conversations with my first ad on projects, or my UPM on early, early early projects are like, Look, man, I know you've got 752 shots you want to do in four hours. I understand that. But this is the reality. You got four shots, let's do this. Yeah, see, we just say, Steve,

Stephen Colletti 41:38
I was gonna say, yeah, I think in I feel like, you know, James Nye, we've had this, like, you know, go get 'em attitude. So it was like, there's nothing that we can't handle, like, we could we will figure it out, you know, we'll figure out how we'll do this. Like, we're just not going to take no for an answer, blah, blah, like, just learn on the fly. That's why I like working with James. Like, he's resourceful. He gets it, he just shuts up and does the work, you know. And, you know, there was definitely times where like, Oh, you know, what we've Southern. So we've taken on too much. It's like, you just can't do this, like this isn't, there are people that have gone to school for this, or have trained to do this for a while. And some of the tasks like we just took for granted, like, for example, locations, like I was doing locations for a while, and then we got closer to shooting. And it was like, I missed a lot of locations that need to be actually locked. And then it was like, Well, those are kind of in the second half. So we'll start shooting, and now we're shooting and there's some locations in the back half that we're still trying to lock I'm trying to we're trying to negotiate like at every single location, it was not taking their you know, their their first offer, letting them know, like telling them the story, you know, we're crowdfunded, we're shoestring budget over here. So like, please, like, you know, what, what can you do to help us out, and it just there was, you know, you're just juggling those, and we actually had in the middle of the shoot to bring somebody on and say, Okay, this person is going to just handle locations, like stop worrying about you tried, you know, you got some good stuff, but like, it's starting to, you know, distract you from other things. So

James Lafferty 43:14
you can be driving from Northridge, down to down to Downey every day. like trying to, like putting the finishing touches on the script. It's just not.

Alex Ferrari 43:23
Yeah, and that's, that's one of the biggest mistake, first time filmmakers in the indie space do is they'd like, Oh, I can do all of this, or I could do this, I could Yeah. And they take so much on that you get nothing done. You have to bring you have to bring in people and you have to have help in one way, shape, or form. And sometimes it's it's educated help. Sometimes it's not educated help, like, you know, you get your, you get your brother, your buddy who wants to be in the business, like let's do location scouts. Sometimes it works out great, sometimes not so much.

James Lafferty 43:52
You know, I think the line is blurred these days as well with, you know, what you can learn and what you can't execute, right? Like you can learn, you can learn a lot like and this is this has been a blessing for us, you know, the fact that technology has come so far, the fact that our access to information is just so exponentially better than it was even 10 years ago, you know, but it also it gives you this false sense of security, it gives you this, you know, false sense of capability, really, I think, you know, we did learn to do a lot. And we did we were especially in post production, right? Once we got into the editing process, we were able to save ourselves a lot of coin just by doing things ourselves and learning to deal with things by ourselves. But the same time, we had to we had to recognize where we had to draw the line where like, you know, okay, we can we can keep banging our head against the wall with this thing that we just learned to do on YouTube three days ago, or we can sort of, you know, reach a point where we realize, Oh, this is what they pay people big bucks for, okay, let's go find somebody who knows what they're doing right before we, you know, you know, carve up our project more than we need to hear, you know, do something, you know, make some sort of fatal mistake, right?

Alex Ferrari 45:00
So you guys didn't shoot your own movie. You weren't a DPS as well.

James Lafferty 45:06
We did not Soderbergh it. Now

Alex Ferrari 45:07
he did. It is.I found out I honestly, within like a couple years ago, I found out that solder Berg was his own dp. And he'd always been his own dp, I had no idea because he changes his name on the credit.

Stephen Colletti 45:19
I didn't know that

Alex Ferrari 45:20
all of his and then you go back and like he did Ocean's 11. And che and I mean, Erin Brockovich, and like, he, he was a toy, you start thinking about it, like, and he was the writer, and he was, like, he's a freak of nature. He's like, an absolute freak of nature to do all of Yeah, very, very few very few guys can do. And trust me, I, my first feature I was the DP on. And mind you, I was already 20 years in. And I have been a colorist for 10 years. So I'm like, you know what, let me just get it down the line, I tried to sit it down the middle, expose it, I'll fix it in post, which is exactly what I did. But after after that, I was like, never again, never, ever, ever again. It's too much, man, it's too, it's too much. It's the takes a special brain to do all of that stuff.

Stephen Colletti 46:08
But I was just gonna say another thing we learned, like real quick was, I think was important to take, being able to understand like a pulse of your set, that I felt like I recognized as I'm sitting around on a set waiting for, you know, to act on certain acts, just the, you know, how, how quickly, like a dynamic can change, it's almost like people are, especially these long days, like people can get, you know, they get edgy, naturally, I totally understand it. And so it doesn't take much to set people off. And so to kind of, you know, be a little more aware of, of, you know, the treatment of people, especially for us, when you know, there's no room to go anywhere, we were crammed in an apartment, and we're crammed in whatever location, you know, all on top of each other that, you know, to try to, you know, respect people for the jobs that they're doing, give the attaboys and, and, you know, also, I guess, still try to provide some decent food because, you know, our, you know, we had them, there's no comfort for them whatsoever, and they're working completely full days. And, you know, I think Michelle Lange was, was key and saying, well, we're gonna, we're going to pay for a decent caterer, you know, we got to get some, we got to get them fed well, but, you know, just trying to just check in with with crew and, and have, like, you know, you create a cold, cordial relationship with everybody. And I think that also helps at the end of the day, when the going gets tough. And people either want to get the f out of there, which I understand or just so sick of like, This lack, like, we're missing a couple of resources, and you're having to wear an extra hat, you're not certainly getting paid for it, but like, you know, what, they're gonna step up because they believe in the people that are running this project. I think that that helped us a lot. And, you know, we also had young, we had a lot of young filmmakers, people that are just getting started in the business. And that was really crucial. Because while they're not getting paid, you know, big money, they're ready to hustle, you know, they're ready to, you know, to be on a set and make a film project, you know, so that was, you know, something that was also very vital to, you know, fill in the blanks of not having a comfortable set that you would get on a major network, you

James Lafferty 48:21
know, did you guys that we learn, oh, sorry, I was. I was just gonna say, um, that's something that we learned from the Nelms brothers as well. Being on set with the knowledge brothers, I learned very early on with them that like, the reason that their sets are so amazing, and people are so happy, it's because they realize that they're not being asked to do anything that the directors wouldn't do themselves, or wouldn't don't have the utmost respect for right? Like, these are guys that these are not directors that go to the directors trailer in between setups, and do whatever the hell they want to do. And they're like, these are guys who are they're on set every single, every single moment. They love the process, they truly love being that, and that is contagious. And that's what gets people through those long days and those long nights is, is knowing that the person at the top still really cares about this and really cares about, you know, really wants everybody else to care. And is is willing to put in the work just like they are. I just yeah, I mean, we learned that from that from them very early on. And just we tried to be those guys on set every day.

Alex Ferrari 49:23
Now, did you guys happen to feed your crew spinning wheels of death? Do you know what those are is that this is an old this is this is the best stuff comes from old DPS. So a buddy of mine who's like he's been in the business 4050 years, and he was DJing something I was directing. And it was a low budget situation. And we talked about lunch, and I said, Hey, do you guys you know, maybe we should just get some pizza. He's like do not bring out spinning wheels of death. Do not bring out just because that's what they're called because it just drags the crew, cheese and bread and it just slows everyone down. He goes, don't do it. Don't do it. And he also, he also always used to say every time he couldn't get something the way he wanted to say, I'm surrounded by assassins surrounded by everywhere I'd look surrounded by assassins, and I use that like constantly on a setlist surrounded by assassins. Goddamnit. But did you? Did you do the pizza thing at one point?

Stephen Colletti 50:20
We actually didn't do pizza.

Alex Ferrari 50:21
Good. That's a good producers

Stephen Colletti 50:24
producers shout out was a Spartan catering. James

James Lafferty 50:28
Spartan brothers. Yeah, but yeah,

Stephen Colletti 50:30
they were they were solid. They had good food. And, you know, we tried to make sure, yeah, you have you other options for, you know, people with with allergies or whatever, and just made sure we're on top of that, or, you know, there was a couple days where they might have forgotten or maybe those first days, you know, working through the kinks that there weren't enough of those meals. It was like, Let's go, you know, let's get this fixed right now, you know. And other than that, we kept them well caffeinated. That's for sure. This This started well, I know myself, but RDP was was a caffeine theme. And so we just made sure we got the Starbucks runs in the coffee going and, you know, thankfully, it was a small enough crew that were like our and this is something that James and I we just handled. We're like, you know what, just take our card and go. Let's get everyone whoever wants something from Starbucks or

Alex Ferrari 51:19
just go Yeah, it's the cheapest is the cheapest investment you can make in this film. I'll tell you a quick story. I come from Miami originally. So in Miami, onsets, there's a little old Cuban man, who's he's hired. It's always a little old Cuban man who walks around but two to three times a day with a tray full of these little thimbles of coffee called Puerto Rico's which is Cuban coffee or little. There's like this big and you look like that can't do anything. And I was just alone. I'm Cuban. So I was raised with this stuff. So I I see, you know, people who are not used to Cuban coffee, like oh, there's just a few of them. That's, that's so little. And they would chug like four or five of them at once. And within 15 minutes to just like she's like freaking freaking out and I like it we and all the all the people who are used to that coffee like let's let's watch let's see what happened to that act. That actor and you just see him just start freaking out like trying to do a scene. So Cuban coffee earlier, I

James Lafferty 52:15
love that. That's that sounds efficient.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
And there's a there's a little way he does it with the sugar and like, he he makes it all foam up. It's a it's an artistry thing. And it's just their little little thimbles man not even shot clock like symbols. That's how powerful and dense the human coffee is. Oh, he makes

Stephen Colletti 52:34
the card the Starbucks runs. And it is I think Starbucks you know, those are sure people that will shit on the coffee naturally, because it's not that great. But there's still a lot of people that are like, it's a desert to that right. A couple people. You get that dialed up for right after lunch? And yeah, you know, it's it's a little gift, that gift goes a long way. Those those anytime that the crew was feeling down, it was like, Alright, let's on the double with the the Starbucks runs in and then when someone would show up with them, you know, everyone perked up. And it was it was

James Lafferty 53:07
it was as much for us as it was. We needed it.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
You got to keep Yeah, you got to keep Yeah, keep the ball rolling. I mean, look, if you don't have money to pay them, the normal day rates, at minimum feed them well. And get them Yes, feed them over coffee. That's I mean, you could you could pay them nothing. Feed them. Well. Yeah, that's at minimum you have to do and that's going to be the best investment you can have in your projects. Without question. Sorry. So you finally get this whole thing together, guys, it's it's finished. It's done. You guys are feeling good about it. And you're like, Okay, now what? How the hell do you go out? How do you get hulu's interest in it? And like, you know, I'm sure you hit walls everywhere you went? Because like, this has never happened. No one's ever done this. How did you do it?

James Lafferty 53:54
Yeah, it was a series of unfortunate events, followed by one very fortunate event. One single very unfortunate event. Well, let's see we, we finished with it took us about eight months to finish the show, in post to you know, get all the episodes to where they needed to be. As we were doing that, we also we got to see, sorry, we got Episode Two across the finish line. And then we took Episode Two out to some of these festivals that had accepted us and you know, our pilot episode. We also use episodes one and two to shop really to take out in this sort of soft way. Right, like to take out some contacts or some you know, in rows that we had made. So we continued that festival circuit. We continue to take it out a bit but again, it was the same thing as with that pilot episode. We still didn't have a sales agent. We are still going to our talent agents to reach development executives. We are still running into walls and we couldn't get anybody to tell us what to do. You know, we there was no That whole side of the industry is so relationship based. And we didn't have the person with the insight or the or the relationships. Or if we could talk to somebody that didn't have the relationships, we had something that they didn't know what to do with. Because there was no template for it. They're like, You brought me a movie. If this was a movie, it would be one thing. There's a million ways you can go. But this is a TV show. And we don't know what to do with this right now. And so we got to I guess we finished the show sometime. And what was it mid mid 2019, Steven, something like that. Or maybe fall 2019, we started really getting to a place where you're happy with the show and felt like it was finished. Yep, yep. Yeah. And we're still taking it out. We finally realized that this whole sales thing is probably not going to happen for us. So we start getting ready to sell distribute, we were going to go through Amazon. We were getting our music finished, we were getting all our contracts in line. We were about two weeks away from hitting from hitting submit to Amazon's platform to

Alex Ferrari 56:07
but so for basically for s VOD, and T VOD, or just

James Lafferty 56:11
for for rentals. First, I think Yeah, to purchase for rented or buy a

Alex Ferrari 56:14
transit and transactional first. So, but you knew that I mean, your budget was,

Stephen Colletti 56:19
I mean, based on the numbers, you're saying your budget was well north of 250. So to generate that in transactional takes obscene amount of work, and luck, and magic from the film gods to make that work. So we're going we're taking that as we're gonna take the show on the road, like that, we're gonna do that. Now, we also got to go to what was successful for us and go fill some theaters, you know, like, tour around, make some stops, and do some parents kind of stuff just to leverage as much interest and bring in some income to try to get back our budget?

James Lafferty 56:56
Yeah, we came up with a pretty good game plan for that, you know, we did the numbers, and it seemed like we could get somewhere close based on you know, we've done fan conventions before for One Tree Hill, we knew that there was a certain amount of a built in audience for everyone is doing great itself anyways, you know, we felt good about our odds, really, we knew that it would be really, really tough. We knew that it would be basically like crowdfunding all over again. Fun, fun. Yeah. Just wanted to get the show out there. And we didn't know any other way to do it. And so yeah, that took us to, I think about january, february of 2020. And then, my brother, who was a producer on the show, as well, his name is Stuart, he just made a random phone call to a friend of his who is a producer who has a relationship with endeavor content. And so my brother sent this producer, our show our first couple episodes, the producer was like, Oh, this is interesting. I don't know. By the time he sent it to endeavor, this agent and endeavor had taken a look, and we were going into lockdown were blocked down wasn't far away. And this agent went, Okay, well, this is, you know, interesting. Like, he really is credit, like he really saw him himself in, in, in these weird ways. When we finally got on the phone to talk to him, he sort of pitched our show back to us in a way that nobody else really had, which was really cool. He seemed to just connect with it on on one level, but then on another level, he was like, you know, we don't know when people are gonna be making stuff again, there's gonna be a real hole in, you know, and buyer schedules, you know, come, you know, quarter three, quarter four, and, and, and this could be a possibility. So, endeavor content took it on. And then there was a list of about 17 different buyers that they were going to go out to with the show. And over the course of what, three or four months, each of those buyers passed, really, really painfully and slowly and slowly, and slowly and slowly and painfully. And yeah, we were worn down to the point where we were pretty much just like, you know, going to the park and laying down and staring at the sky waiting to die.

Alex Ferrari 59:04
Because there was no tour anymore. The tour was shut down. There's no tour. There's none of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

James Lafferty 59:11
And then we got the Yeah, we got the call from endeavour that said, Yeah, really wants to make an offer. And that's, that, that changed. That changed literally everything.

Alex Ferrari 59:21
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Wow, so is the same. It was literally the timing right place, right time, right product? Yeah. a year earlier. Maybe not so much. A year later, maybe not so much. But that moment in time, was the time and similar to my film, like at that moment in time, it worked like they would never buy a film like that today. So it just happened to be the right timing, man, that's, you know what, like, like I always say to people, look, luck has a bit to do with this whole thing that we do, there is luck. But the thing is, if you hadn't built that product, all the luck, and we're really willing to help you, you needed something to sell. So it just happened to work out.

Stephen Colletti 1:00:12
It's kind of like it's a create your own luck scenario, you know? And there's no, you everyone's looking for like the recipe, right? How do you do it? So how did you get your independent show to Hulu? Right, tell us the secret. And, but ultimately, there was a lot of hard work that then fell on chance, you know, and fell on a right place, right time opportunity, which you do hear all the time. I think that the way you get the hair at the end of the day, is, you know, you pay your dues, you work hard, you get, you know, you're trying to you're bringing people in to you bring in smart people around you keep you motivated, keep you pushing where, you know, you're overextending yourself. And I think that's when invites the opportunity for for maybe that luck to strike, you know, and it's no guarantee, but this is also what we sign up for. But, you know, had we tried to do these buyer screenings that didn't work well, had we tried to shake down our reps for months, slash years to, you know, get it to the right people, and never feel like we got the right shot. You know, have we not done all of that? Would we have gotten to this gotten to this moment of right place? right time? You know, I don't think so. It just, you know, there was no shortcuts. So, you know, you can you can help your fate, I think I'd like to I'd like to believe you know, I believe,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:33
no, there's, there's no, there's no question about it, man. There's absolutely no question. So when does this so you basically sold Hulu for domestic only. So this still has an international opportunity as well for sales.

James Lafferty 1:01:45
We're going to be in Australia, in the Nordics. And in Latin America courtesy of paramount plus, and their rollout overseas. Which is, which is really, really incredible. And another one of those another one of those things, it's like, you know, man, it's just, it's just, it's crazy, because, you know, we didn't get Hulu, then our show is never legitimized enough to get on, you know, Paramount plus for overseas, you know what I mean? It's like this domino effect of, of things of things happening. And, you know, obviously, it shows the power of getting on to, you know, a streamer like that. But we're just really grateful that we're going to get a reaction from other cultures as well, because, you know, we've seen to have gotten a really good feedback from our domestic audience. People are still finding the show, most people seem to like it. But you know, comedy is hard. When you take it when you export it, cultures find different things funny. We were actually really inspired by some Australian comedy, and Australian stories, storytelling in general British storytelling, so we feel like it will export nicely there, we hope. But we know non English speaking countries, it's really impossible for us to tell. And so yeah, we're kind of waiting on pins and needles to see how it does. And it's gonna be really exciting. We got a call from endeavour actually asking if we wanted to, if we wanted to have a say, in the voices for the Latin American market and the Portuguese market for dubbing and we both were like, I think we could be hands off with this. Yes, this is the one we're comfortable delegating.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:20
If I keep up I would.

James Lafferty 1:03:24
I gotta brush up on my Portuguese, right? No,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:28
no, dude, I used to do I used to do translation not translations, but versioning out for commercials from Latin America. I had to do 30 different versions because every country has their own Spanish. So you you can't you can't send you can't send a Puerto Rican vo guy to Mexico you can't send a Mexican guy to Argentina there's such a different and accents. And that's when I discovered that you just can't it's not one spouse can't send a Spaniard down to Mexico like it doesn't it doesn't translate well doesn't get accepted well, so that that that that's going to be a process for you guys down there. whoever's doing that with you as hands off of that it's going to be an interesting

James Lafferty 1:04:08
You're making me very glad that we said no state

Alex Ferrari 1:04:11
stay away. Stay out of it. Stay out of that, dude, just collect the checks or just take the check a gadget. That's great, man. Listen, it's in this is an inspiring story. I know that there's a lot of actors out there who you know, have maybe been on shows or has a following and are frustrated just like you guys were with, you know, having to go and hustle out jobs and asking for permission constantly. And I'm not saying you're still not doing that, obviously, because not the ages will get very upset. So you're still going out on jobs and stuff, but at least you have a little bit more, a little bit more control of your own destiny, where you're like, you know, we have a track record now. Now we can go out and do it on maybe a movie or or another series and maybe get hired to do be on that side of the fence and now you're building a different level of your career. Um, you know, what, what advice would you give any actors listening out there right now, because I know I have a few actors who listen, as well about trying to do something similar to what you guys are doing.

James Lafferty 1:05:13
Yeah, I think I think, you know, one thing that was easy to forget, the more serious the process got for us was that we started this thing as an experiment, a creative experiment, and we agree with each other that, you know, if that pilot episode sucked, then nobody would ever see it. And that would be okay. You know, we only spent as much money as we were comfortable losing on that pilot. And we went at it experimentally. And I think that gave us the freedom to be creative, as creative as we could possibly be to be uninhibited, and you know, and being creative. And it really helped us to just enjoy the process. And that was, that was extremely important in finding the tone of this thing, and determining what it really was, you know, and shooting it. And also, you know, getting in there and edit and making sure that we just had the time, and we were giving ourselves, we were giving ourselves the luxury of time to learn and taking the pressure off, right, as much as humanly possible. At least with that, that first episode. And I would say for you know, that's the advice that I would give to an actor that's going to go out and make their their first movie is like, Look, you won't get this right the very first time it, you might get it right, but you won't get it as right as you could, because you will be learning every step of the way. And that's okay, that doesn't actually mean that it won't be brilliant, like, it could be incredible, but you're going to see the mistakes in it, you know, the finished product, you will see the mistakes. And so don't worry about getting it exactly right all the way through, worry about setting out to tell the story that you want to tell. And by the end of it, you know, hopefully you will, you will have told it, I think you know, know the story that you want to tell. And also make the kind of thing that you would want to watch. And that's all you got to worry, that's all you got to worry about the first time around, you know, surround yourself with people that can worry about the other stuff for you and treat them with respect and pay them well if you can. But at the end, at the end of the day, just just try to make, just try to make the show or the movie that you would want to watch and, and see what happens. And you know, if you make mistakes, that's okay, you will learn from those mistakes, and you'll get you'll you'll get it right the next time.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:29
Have you seen? Yeah, I

Stephen Colletti 1:07:31
would, I would say, you know, check your ego at the door from the jump, you know, it's it's not, you're not the star of the show here, I think anybody can come on, and work for hopefully a decent meal. And that Starbucks coffee after lunch is now the star for you, you know, it's it's, I think getting those people around you that that are going to be able to, you know, help push you with this project, help get it to its finish line, and have it you know, the quality in a way. You know, I think that creating those relationships and supporting them wherever they need support is is very vital. So you know, this isn't about just work on your project here. You know, you offer your ass up to carry gear for them on another project or whatever it is, you know, I do that and get that experience in and create those relationships because this is not something we're not Steven Soderbergh over here. You're not going to be able to do everything on your own. You need a lot of help. And and so you know, people are going to work with people that they you know, believe in and that they enjoy working with, especially when the going gets tough, you know? So,

James Lafferty 1:08:41
yeah, you have a really good script supervisor. You're gonna be in front of in front of him behind the camera. As a really good script supervisor,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:51
a good a good first ad doesn't hurt either.

James Lafferty 1:08:54
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55
Yeah, definitely doesn't really yeah, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. I asked all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

James Lafferty 1:09:07
True? Get off your button, do it? That was that was one that took me the longest to learn. Definitely, really? Yeah, definitely. I mean, coming from, look, as an actor, you are very single minded when you get to set your and that's the way it should be like you were there to take care of your job. And, and be present for the other people that are in the scene with you. You know, I worked in I worked as a director and television as well, which was incredible, which was one of the most like animating and eye opening things that ever happened to me because that's where I realized just how much of an ecosystem every single set is right? And how much every little component depends on the next one. That was a big eye opener for me, and it was a whole level a whole other level of working hard and and it was something that I enjoyed, but still You have that safety net, still there is a machine working to help you get everything done. You are not pulling the thing along, you are more of a facilitator. Right. But yeah, it wasn't until, you know, working with the Nelms brothers and Michelle Lange and Johnny Durango on their sets, that's when I realized the power. And the gratification that can come from just getting off your butt and doing something, you know, yourself pulling something yourself, together yourself how much you can learn how good you can get at what you want to do. You know, you want to tell stories, the best way to you want to tell stories this way, I think the best way to become a master at it is to is to, you know, try to pull something together yourself. That's what they they taught me. And it took me a while It took me a while to learn that I didn't meet me till I was like 25

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
How about easy?

Stephen Colletti 1:10:53
Oh, man. There's a few things I figured out I'm still getting.But I thinkman,it's funny. Like, I do believe that. It's tricky that, like, once sustaining your own lane is is an important thing to know, like what you can't do. But the same time with this spirit, this project, it was like tried to do is figure out as much as possible. But I think that there was I still need to understand, like, knowing my, my boundaries, and and once I know what when I know what those are, like, just don't try to pretend like you know, anything else, you know, we're no further trying to, you know, take on something that you're like a wall, just figure it out. You know, I think it's okay to to seek out help or admit that you just don't know how to do something, you know, the sometimes we're fearful of, you know, feeling inept, at whatever, you know, at being able to finish a job. And so you know, you try to overextend yourself or try to say you got it, but, you know, and ultimately don't now you've set things back. So I think it's, it's understanding, you know, my boundaries, and I feel like I'm still, I'm still trying to figure that out. You know, like, you know, I can't say that I can do this when when I can't or you know, I'm just not everything I could figure out on my own. Right. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
and, and the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:12:23
Oh, gosh.

James Lafferty 1:12:25
Alex, I listened to your podcast and prepared myself. Because I never had the answer to this. You say? Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, I planned. I planned it this way. at Ferris Bueller's Day Off Nice, nice. And Silver Linings Playbook. Nice because I I feel like I learned something from each one of those films at the time in my life that I watched it. So it was like, you know, when I was a tadpole, and then when I was like, you know, pubescent and then as an adult? So there's something for me in each one of those stages. So God beat that, Stephen.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:06
Wow. Well, he just left it dangling in the wind there, brother. I'm sorry about that.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:10
I'm just gonna say. But we had, we had like, three VHS tapes in my house growing up. And one was like somebody had left a Blockbuster Video, which was predator over at our house,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
obviously one of the greatest action films of all time.

Stephen Colletti 1:13:31
And Forrest Gump, which I thought like, the scope of that movie was always something that just like stuck in my mind. And the way Yeah, the way the story is told the way we go throughout all these different parts of history, and that sat with me I think, of late. Well, obviously not of late, but it was actually James little brother introduced me to True Romance.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:56
Oh,

Stephen Colletti 1:13:58
by Tony Scott. And that is a that is a favorite of mine. Dude,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:03
I remember walking out because I'm a bit older than you guys. So I remember walking out of the theater, watching True Romance. And me and my friends just looked at each other, like what the hell was that? Like, we were just so shock.

Stephen Colletti 1:14:18
That's another movie that another feeling that I had there. I'll give you two other movies that for me going to the movies with like the experiences about kernel activity when that movie, like just the reaction in the theater was amazing. And then also, Interstellar was another one which was amazing going into the bathroom afterwards and just getting everyone's reaction just like oh, wow, like that was like it's that when it's kind of hard to step back and society. It's not just the glare of being back in the sunlight. It's like whoa, like where did I just got

Alex Ferrari 1:14:53
I missed that I missed do I miss going to the theaters man I miss go in and get all that experience. I just saw a picture of Nolan in Burbank, oh, yeah, is going going to that's the theater I go to. That's exactly that's the exact theater I go to. He's just sitting there with his wife and his friend just like that. We're gonna watch. I think it was watching the Snider cut there. I'm not sure what he was watching, but he was watching something there.

Stephen Colletti 1:15:15
I was honestly trying to Google that as well.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:17
I think he was watching. I think he was watching. I think it was Justice League the four hour cut of that at the theater. It's Yeah, man. No one is me. Jesus, there's only one of him running around right now. That's for sure. Listen, guys, thank you so much for for being on the show and being an inspiration to a lot of people out there hopefully, listening and maybe they'll pick up their, their, their, their, their chariot to take it to the finish line, and try to get something done. So I appreciate that man. And good luck to you guys. Keep going. I can't wait to see what else you guys do next.

James Lafferty 1:15:51
Thanks so much, man. Yeah, I appreciate appreciate your podcast too. Great work.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:55
Thank you, Man.

Stephen Colletti 1:15:55
Thank you, man. Keep hustling.

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