fbpx

BPS 396: How to Become an Indy Mogul with Ted Sim

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 2:37
I'd like to welcome to the show Ted Sim. The legendary Ted. How you holdin up man?

Ted Sim 3:48
Doing good man doing good. Hanging out working on a bunch of stuff wasn't without any phone podcast, man. Here we go.

Alex Ferrari 3:55
Yeah, baby. I mean, this is like I was saying earlier I think is a longtime common man. It's It's uh, you know, I've been I've been a fan of yours for a while I've been a fan of what you've been doing with aperture and now with Indy Mogul. And all the service that you're doing for the film community in general man, because we're such a small group. There's not a lot of us doing what we do as far as trying to help the community and trying to be of service and all that stuff. And we all it's so funny if we don't know each other personally, we know somebody who knows each other. And it's kind of like, it kind of goes that way. So it's it's very, it's very, but I've been wanting to get you on the show. I had Griffin on the show a while ago, which was so much fun.

Ted Sim 4:32
And it's so much fun. Is he seriously just that you think he's a nice guy when you watch the videos when you meet him or talk to him in person or online. And then you're like, Oh my gosh, he's like 10 times nicer than I ever thought he could be.

Alex Ferrari 4:44
Is he like, is he like Canadian? Nice.

Ted Sim 4:49
Really good question. I don't know how to answer that. But I will say I'm certainly nice. So however you define

Alex Ferrari 4:56
Canadian, Canadian nice is like so nice. It's like, I still remember the first time I went to Canada and the first time I ever went there and everyone was so nice. I swear I was like in a horror movie, like they're gonna kill me. This is way too nice. I don't understand

Ted Sim 5:11
Where you're coming from Los Angeles to Los Angeles. You couldn't ask for a more like, culture shock. horribly mean spirited people. community to come from?

Alex Ferrari 5:24
What do you mean sir la? What? How dare you, sir? Oh, Sandra, this is where all the friendly people are. Yeah, but they but LA is the nicest. They give you the nice efuse the nicest efuse ever. Like I've never it's an art form here. Just then they'll never you'll never hear the word. No. Never, ever. It's just we're passing. That drives me crazy. Just like you go to New York, dude, your stuff sucks. And I'm not going to do it. That's like what you hear in New York.

Ted Sim 5:56
I just I just don't I know it's true. I just don't want to admit that it's true, because I hope that it'll change someday. I'm from Baltimore originally, by the way. So I'm used to the same thing you get on the bus and the bus drivers, you know, to drop an F bomb in there and be like, Are you fucking coming on the bus and you leave in the bus? I'm like, No, you.

Alex Ferrari 6:13
Let's, let's move it along. kind of thing with the bus. All right. So before we get started, man, how did you get into the film business in the first place?

Ted Sim 6:23
That was a great question. Yes, I grew up in Baltimore. So basically, in Baltimore, if you tell people you want to make movies or working, basically like saying you want to be an astronaut, it's like, honestly, I think saying you want to be an astronaut is actually a more reasonable job, because there's the Goddard Space Center and all this stuff out there. And like there's actual NASA employees walking around. So it's not really the most plausible thing to tell people. But you know, I want to work in the film industry because I grew up and I love movies. And I think I fell into the trap that most filmmakers fall into, which is Oh, my gosh, watching movies is so fun. I wonder how much fun it must be to make a movie.

Alex Ferrari 7:05
Must be easy. It must be easy. I've seen the behind the scenes. It shouldn't be that difficult. Of course. Yeah. I mean, everyone's just having fun. You're eating snacks. So there's, there's trailers, there's sushi. There's lobster tail, I mean, yeah.

Ted Sim 7:17
So you fall for that. And, you know, you get into it, you start making movies. And since I was a kid, since like middle school, I was like trying to, you know, play with my own cameras and stuff like that. In high school, I actually got a job as a projectionist assistant, where I was actually, my grades were terrible in high school, but I would go to the local theater every day, and I'd work as the assistant over there. And eventually, I made the jump to go to film school came out to when I found out that film schools actually care about more than just your film experience, which, you know, sounds it No, it doesn't sound obvious, it was something I needed to learn. I buckled down and went to Maryland, studied my butt off and then eventually got the grades got into UCLA, did my film program there and then suffered the I think the thing that I'm sure a lot of listeners can say that they suffered from which is the post film school blues of feeling elite, and you feel like you're the best and you worked really hard to get into this program and you come out and people literally want you to like claim and shoot

Alex Ferrari 8:18
So you see you mean reality. You're talking about reality on reality TV? No, no, no, that's that's life. You mean life hitting you smacking you upside the head? And going No, no, no, you're not as cool as you think you are. Yes, we all

Ted Sim 8:38
The worst feeling in the world? Does anyone listening to this that feels like they're in that place in their life? I'm not gonna say that. It doesn't get worse than that. But I'm gonna say that that is a low point. And it's normal to be in a low point there and that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 8:52
Yeah, it isn't. It is a normal place out of I mean, out of film school. I was. I started working at Universal Studios, Florida, doing pa where I was in pa work. I was a translator for global guts, the Nickelodeon show. And then I just realized a while that's like, this sucks. This is not what I was told that I was gonna make 100 million dollar movies. This is this is you know, my last name should be Spielberg. I don't understand. To me who likes me so looking around, I can tell you who lied to you the one that you're paying that bill to every month to pay back your student loan. That's the one

Ted Sim 9:30
Your driving the hot thing now Alex in terms of you know, obviously the film school versus no film school debate. It's a hot topic, right? Yes. I gotta be honest, like when I when I first got out and for probably 10 years afterwards, I thought for sure. No film school, right because I was like the golden boy in film school to like I graduated like top of my class. I like a director spotlight all this stuff, and they came out and just no They write crickets. But I think it takes a certain amount of time to see the people around you grow up and become because I think when you first graduate, you look around, you look at your friends, and you're like, Man, I'm an idiot. And all of these people that I graduated with are idiots, like, what network are they talking about. And what you don't realize is that it's not an idiot. So it's not that you're an idiot, it's just that it takes time for everyone to grow into the thing that they become. And you know, now everyone that I looked to now is, you know, producing something, or shooting something and writing something. And it's a great feeling, because it's like seeds, right? I got to grow up into something someday. So now, I don't really know, I'm kind of torn on the homeschool thing. I do believe that if you're really motivated and dedicated, you can learn everything that you've learned in film, school plus more online, you can learn it from other people, you can learn it just by doing it. If you take that money and make a movie, you can do it. I feel the same way about business, but or a certain person out there that, you know, can't make that jump or doesn't have that self drive. I don't think it's a bad move anymore. I've flipped on that.

Alex Ferrari 11:05
But arguably, arguably speaking, though, if you don't have the drive to go to the self, educate yourself, do you think you're gonna have the drive to make it in this business? That's a really good question. That's a really good. I mean, if you're like, I don't want to like have to do work to learn. I need someone to tell me what to do. Because that's the way businesses Yeah, that's, there's going to be someone holding your hand through this entire process, especially indie film. Oh, absolutely.

Ted Sim 11:30
It's a nightmare. Right? Like, again, I'm speaking to people mostly that are in the States, right? Because, you know, you got publicly funded Arts in like Germany. Sure. And like a lot of places. Sure, that's a different thing. And I there's there's downsides to that. And there's upsides to that. But if you're doing indie film in the States, or any place that doesn't have publicly funded arts, man, it is. ain't easy.

Alex Ferrari 11:52
It ain't easy in this world. Alright, so you get out, you realize that the world sucks, and they lied to you. And now you're in this dark depressive place. Where do you go from there, sir?

Ted Sim 12:03
Okay, so I get lucky, actually. So I started. I just I just start on our operating I just I got a camera, I start shooting things that shoot every day, man, I shoot bad weddings, I see horrible commercials for people down the street. I started taking on just little gigs here and there. I find my way eventually out to a set until I started doing a kind of a spiff in terms of working in reality documentary. And this is back when I think, you know, Shark Week was I don't know if it's still as big as it was back then. But sure, it was a big. Yeah, still a big deal. I got him because originally from Baltimore, in silver spring over Maryland, discovery channels out there. So I had a couple friends that were from the Discovery Channel people and I met some people on set. I'm interested started working as the like go to guy for the Shark Week people. And I was the guy that was known as. And really this is because I was just some kid out of film school, I was known as the guy that could do it for really cheap. It would be okay, not that great. But I could get it done quickly. And for a budget that everyone else would be like hell no, we're not doing that. Eventually, the guys that I started working for were the company that would get contracted out to do Shark Week, they'd get contracted to do these kind of like big discovery gigs here and there. But, you know, just like any Freelancer or entrepreneur, company owner knows, you get reached out to from time to time with lowball gigs, right? And they used to just say no to those gigs, and they would just start throwing them to me. And I was the guy that was like, oh, you'll pay me the whole camera. Hell yeah. And shoot anything, I would work anything in matter. Yeah. Um, I did that for a while until eventually, I got I got lucky. Those group of guys actually reached out to me, after a couple years of doing videos, and I think what they were noticing is the same thing that I think everyone could say it's still happening now is that the budgets for all these projects were going down. And they felt like they needed to bring on someone that you know, was scrappy, that could do kind of a lower budget projects, but they got there often. So they actually ended up bringing me on as their c string director, which I didn't know what that was until the time but there's a director there's a B director and a C string directly. It's like legal firms right? Like when you hire like a law firm or something you go after the first person the name whose person is on the legal firm, but then they don't actually work on it they pass it to their B person that the person doesn't want to work on it the president is the person right? Well, that was me doing educational videos for McDonald's and doing you know I would do like the how to set up your car BMW videos and stuff like that.

Alex Ferrari 14:36
It paid it paid something

Ted Sim 14:38
they paid. And you know what I was I was really lucky because I think I got paid to direct really early on which is something that I think a lot of people

Alex Ferrari 14:45
Oh, that's awesome. I mean yeah, look, I would have killed to direct I was I was editing. So basically what you were doing a camera I was doing in post. So that's why my IMDb is like 100 credit long and that's not even including the idea of just post a name including commercials music videos. All this other crap that I did, and I did anything for Yeah, any if it walked in the door I did it.

Ted Sim 15:07
Were you an editor or were you like an editing assistant on scoping for a long time. And he was like, man, just glad

Alex Ferrari 15:15
No i did editing I did. I was an assistant for like a minute. And then I went off and start freelance editing commercials and music videos and things like that. Then slowly I got into feature editing. Then after that I got into color grading, after that I did online editorial, and then and then post production supervision, then VFX. So I started just adding more tools in the toolbox. Because if I couldn't get paid to edit, I could color if I'm not getting paid to color I could do post supervisor, and then package it all together.

Ted Sim 15:43
Dude, I think post is the smartest way to get it. Maybe the grass is always greener. But I legitimately believe that editing, if you want to, if you want to write or direct or any of that stuff, like let's be real, most people want to write and direct, right? If you want to do either of those things, I really think post is the way to enter because that's when you assembly, this is gonna sound like belittling a bunch of jobs that again, I'm coming from a very camera heavy cinematography world. So please, if you're hearing it from anyone, please read for me. Almost everything is like building the blocks, or someone to edit, right? They're like making a bunch of Legos. At the end of the day, someone's got to put the story together. That's the editor. So if you want to write and direct, I don't think that there's any better practice in the world than post.

Alex Ferrari 16:26
Oh, I would agree with you. 100% It helps me so when I started directing commercials and directing TV, all that kind of stuff it I can move so much quicker than anybody else. I mean, I was doing 100 110 120 setups a day. Just why and because I just knew what I needed. I didn't have to wait to like, oh, we're just gonna take that whole shot. I'm like, No, no, stop right there. I'm gonna cut there. Let's move on here. Yeah. And it just, it works. So so much better. And, and not that I'm a bit older than you. But so you know, I there, I didn't have the ability to learn editing at home, I had to do I had to drive an hour get there early work on the avid, stay late,

Ted Sim 17:06
that says I don't care, even if it was slower, even if it was harder, just learning how to assemble something. Yes. And just know and be that close to the finished product. I think it's priceless man, because everything else is just so vague and ephemeral. And you don't know what's important. Until you see it in the Edit.

Alex Ferrari 17:20
Absolutely. So then, so I wanted to ask you, man, you're obviously, you know, the first time I, you know, discovered you was through aperture. And that company, and you're the president of aperture. And for people who don't know what aperture is, it's a lighting company, a very cool lighting company. How did you get involved with that company? And and, you know, how did you jump from, you know, doing really bad wedding videos, to the president of aperture?

Ted Sim 17:49
That's a really good question. That's a really good question. So in between that, obviously, I had my stamp kind of doing the directing for that production company, which, which that was, that was good, that was fun. I would basically get asked to bid on a job. probably somewhere between 15 to 20 times a year, I would put bids in and realistically, I'd probably undergone a good year. And when I don't know what, six to seven on a bad year, I'd only win like three or four gigs out of that. And they were like pretty big gigs. I can spend my time and shoot that I can live off that for a while. At a certain point, things start to slow down. So I decided, oh, man, I need to find other work outside of just this being wrapped up this company. It's they're not giving me enough work right now. So I can't say the name of the people. But I went off and I eventually ended up becoming a channel manager for jumbo YouTube star and I'm talking like early, early YouTube.

Alex Ferrari 18:39
What year are we talking about? What years are we talking about? I don't want to say okay, okay. It's early. Look, it's only been around for like 1012 years. So it's not,

Ted Sim 18:47
You know, someone's gonna piece it together, I ended up working for a really early YouTube star. Which is why I say it too, because I wasn't really happy with a lot of the work that I was doing, but it was paying. It was regular. This is like the gold rush of YouTube. Money was coming in.

Alex Ferrari 19:04
And you could then you could still cheat. You could still cheat to get your stuff up on the on the on the front page.

Ted Sim 19:08
I actually To be honest, I wasn't doing a lot. I was basically managing the production schedule and make sure that the videos will come out on time.

Alex Ferrari 19:16
I actually had the rocket jump guys on and they told me their techniques what they did back in the day, you could just you could just do steel thing to tweak it and you were on the front page. That's why they have 9 million subscribers.

Ted Sim 19:27
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what that stuff is life changing. I still think that way about most new film technology that comes out if you're the first one to get there and break it before it is too hard to break. Do you reap the rewards on those guys? I see you working working on YouTube. So doing YouTube channel managing for a big guy out there. Eventually. I'm not happy with the work I'm doing there. I'm kind of getting this sort of I'm getting the the trickle of commercial dealings. I'm not really happy with a lot of it and I get reached out to By this person who is the he's one of my mentors, but his wife's brother reaches out to me and says, Hey, I have this gear company. We're doing really well in like Asia, and we're doing really well in Europe. But I don't really know why we're not selling anywhere else. And I want to hire someone in the states to come help out with that. My buddy Travis is my the guy that recommended me for the gig was like he says, it'd be a really good job for this. What do you think it'll pay? It's a regular gig. And I was like, fine, I will take full time regular work. I'm not really sure at the time I go, and I meet this guy. And this guy is, you know, the government found it becomes a very good friend of mine now. And he's he's amazing mentor, but I meet this guy in this warehouse. 30 miles east of Los Angeles, and I sit down, and I swear, it looks straight out of like a like a James Bond movie or something like lights, or Damn, I'm sitting in empty warehouse. There's like two chairs, and we're looking at each other. And we just talk, right? That's, to be honest, as soon as I walked in, like my first thing that I'm thinking is like, I need to get out of here. This is not a good situation like this is clearly not legitimate. Why did my mentor like recommend me for this thing, but we started talking about equipment. And, you know, this isn't that long ago, this is 2013, or something like that. And this is just after the DSLR booms happened, right? DSLR boom, happens. Everyone's shooting movies, all of a sudden, cameras are affordable. Oh, my gosh. And we talk about this thing. And the big thing that he brings up is talks about how he thinks that cameras have gotten affordable. Now, filmmaking and accessories are also going to need to get more affordable now because all of a sudden, the only people making movies are not just studios and Hollywood filmmakers is the first time that independent artists are coming in for the first time that businesses do make video. And we talked about it for a while. And at first I'm kind of I'm kind of dubious. I'm like, No, like gear is expensive, because it needs to be expensive. And like, he asked me to bring some of my gear. And I brought you know, I don't mind saying that's actually I brought I brought this red rock handle, but I like screwed up camera. Remember that handle right? Here. Remember, it was like, it was like a 300

Alex Ferrari 22:12
it's expensive as hell hell.

Ted Sim 22:14
And it used to be like the cheap option, right. And like, I was really tapped in on the gear, I was like hearing her. And so like, I did all the research, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, this shoulder rig is only 18 $100. And like, you know, he's looking at it. He's like, you know, like that's to buy candles and like some PVC like, do you really think that's worth 18 $100? Right? And you got to start thinking, don't get me wrong, I get all the people out there that say buy nice buy twice, right? Like, I'm one of those people too, right? But when you have a nice industry that all of a sudden becomes blown up. And the people that are providing for that industry aren't pricing it for a lot of people that are just pricing it for studios, like Disney comes over to you and says how much is a light? Yeah, dude. ftu your Disney 10 grand a light, right? Yeah. But the whole thing that he said was he was like, I think that there's going to be this change that's going to happen someday. I don't have a lot of experience in the film industry. But I'm looking for someone that is a shooter that understands filmmaking, that knows what the interview process looks like. And can actually just try to push this stuff, right. I didn't go to business school. I didn't do any of this. We had an off and eventually I ended up saying, Yeah, I think this is a Okay, I'll do this. And in the back of my head, I'm thinking like, okay, maybe I'll do this for like six months or something. I'll do this for six months, I'll put a notice I'll leave and you know, it's winter. summer comes around the gigs always rolling in summer, I'll just do something like that. Say yes to the job and make a Facebook page, Twitter page and make LinkedIn make does all the little things right. And it's fun to say that now because now those things are going up into something else. But make these pages and I just start posting it in the beginning, we have a $0 marketing budget. But the one thing that I think is okay, you know, what did I learn from all my days on YouTube? In fact, it wasn't even that conscious. It was just like, Oh, well, if I have this stuff, and I looked at it, and I tried it, and I was like this is good. And I don't see why people don't like it. Why don't I just start reaching out to people here and there. I start reaching out to not say that I was doing this now I probably would have reached out to you, Alex and Hollywood reached out to me, I would have reached out to derrius I would have reached out to anyone that has some kind of following online. And I just said Hey, I'll send you this thing. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you do like it, consider saying something about it. And you know now I say this and everyone's like Well, that's the most obvious influencer marketing crap ever. But you gotta remember this was a different time nobody was doing and what we found is that we were the only people that were doing that. So all of a sudden you've got all these YouTubers and online people being like, Oh my gosh, like, you're reaching out to me for this day and you want to send me like a $600 light like, that's like oh my gosh, like yes. Like, let me look at this and To be fair, the Bureau is pretty good but I think a lot of it was also that nobody was reaching out at the time nobody was taking them seriously. No one's taking please here's someone who's taking the online filmmaking community seriously. And I think even today we're still starting to see the online filmmaking get taken more seriously. It's blown up a lot. It's changed like crazy, right? Like we live in a day and era now where you know canon pays like a quarter mil to like someone like the top like crazy. Again, not not me, but like does like crazy something that was his name.

Alex Ferrari 25:29
Peter up what's his name? Peter something or other guy. And I okay, the big guys. I'd have no idea Peter cannon or something like that. Yeah.

Ted Sim 25:40
Yeah, I know that all those are huge. Now. It's, it's crazy to me, which is insane. But nobody was taking them seriously at the time. Because of that, we ended up just meeting these people talking to these people. And to be honest, it was kind of radio silence for a while. nav rolls around two months before nav actually put it on notice to quit. I say, Hey, you know, I've been here for 10 months, which is longer than I expected to be there for like maybe a month or something. Eight months, I've been there for longer than I had planned to be there for and I said, Hey, you know, I had a lot of fun. Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate being here. I still believe in the mission stuff that you're working on. But look, I'm looking at this Facebook page, and nothing's really moving. I'm looking at see two pages, nothing's really moving. And what happens is, all of a sudden, we go to nav one year. And the craziest thing happens. We're like this tiny 10 by 10 booth back in Asia corner, right? Like all the other cheap Asian brands, and where we're there and the weirdest thing happens day one, which is everybody from the internet just shows up at our booth. Like everybody you could ever think from the internet shows up to our booth, right? Like, like, I'm like mkbhd walks by at some point. It's so busy and packed and rupees online people that all of a sudden, all these fans of the online people see these online people there. So then random people are now at our 10 by 10. It's this swarm of people I think I did something like like 60 to 70 interviews per day. Because every time I saw an interview, like three other people would see it and be like, why is this company so high? I need to go shoot a thing now.

Alex Ferrari 27:14
Dude, I got to stop you when I was doing research on you. And when I typed you in all I would see you is doing any videos like that's all the other than the 1000s of videos you've done yourself. I would just see interview after interview of NBA MVP like Dude, this guy sleep.

Ted Sim 27:30
Now, so this became but now it's like a tradition or something. Right? It's like go to na P and interview Ted, which is I think it's very flattering and great. And it's a good thing for the company to but at the time it was we were just so shocked, right? Like we had like five people there. Maybe we're like overwhelmed by people. Like I think Shaq came by at some point. Like Shaq comes to nav ever he mean you mean Shaq Shaq Johnson or the real guy? I'm absolutely joking with you, sir. Yeah, Shaq comes by and you know, they like the booth is just so busy that he ends up walking by and people come to this crazy thing where at the end you know, one of the bigger gear companies out there actually asks like, Hey, would you be interested in sitting down to talk business? And the big question all of a sudden becomes one is aperture going to remain aperture by itself as an independent thing or two. And the second question when we all sat down and talked about this was he telling you still leaving and I was like it is supposed to be my last day I was kind of just going to show up and put in my time and be out but now you're like the face of aperture? Is they love me how life works and let me just say to there's like a lot of people that work in aperture that work super hard Yeah, I get credit i get i get way more credit than I deserve on this stuff. Really admins just because yeah, I can't say this enough. Seriously, there's there's so many people here that work super hard. So I do want to be clear that for the most part people think I'm like some like black magic wizard or something. We're just making products now that's not the case. We have a team of engineers that work So

Alex Ferrari 29:15
You mean you're not the one in the back actually designing and building it from from from scratch yourself, sir. That's

Ted Sim 29:21
And even the videos have like a team of people that help us make the video me

Alex Ferrari 29:24
You don't do all those videos by yourself and edit.

Ted Sim 29:27
This is what people think they want this feeling of some person doing something. It's absolutely not true. Anyways, a sub against the epic saga that has become aperture. That's awesome. A lot of changes have happened since then the teams grown like crazy, but we're now at a point now that you know, like Disney bought a whole bunch of lights, which is crazy.

Alex Ferrari 29:49
Did you try them? dollars? Did you charge them 10,000 ?

Ted Sim 29:51
No absolutely not. In fact, they sat down they were like, well, what's the Disney price and I was like, there is no Disney price because like you gotta realize that we sell or Average Joe Schmo filmmakers, right. Like I talked to hear companies that are like, we feel bad when normal people buy our products because normal people aren't supposed to buy our products, right? Like, I would feel bad if you charge some guy down the street 10 to $14,000 for some of these lights, I'm like, This is crazy.

Alex Ferrari 30:15
Now with today's technology, not I mean, before I would get it because there was an LED technology that it actually did cost a lot to produce a professional cinema. Light, you know, and I mean, I worked at those lights, I've used those lights, they're beasts, and they last forever. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Ted Sim 30:45
Yes, I think it's also that when you make them for a small quantity of people, then yeah, you can do that. Yeah, the same reason why like, you know, diving gear.

Alex Ferrari 30:54
Well, that's why an Alexa, look at it, Alexa, Alexa is $125,000. For for that's not for everybody. And, arguably, unless you're having ASC at the end of your name, it really doesn't matter as much when there's so many other options that can get you a really pretty picture that most people out there will never notice.

Ted Sim 31:15
And I've done me wrong. There are there are, you know, there are real differences between the expensive Absolutely. But if you aren't, I would urge most people to do a little more research because look, what is it when you look at the camera that shot Superman Returns? Oh, the Genesis? Yeah, it was some

Alex Ferrari 31:38
it was but it was like it was like a it was kind of almost a Frankenstein between a Sony and a Panis and a pan of vision. And it was a beast, it was a monster, I saw that camera it like the workflow was just built for 5000 post guys to work, it was just not a friendly candy. Only

Ted Sim 31:54
thing I just want to say and like this is not to castrate on people that use the super expensive stuff, because it's okay to use what you're paying for share what you're paying. But there's so many people out there that they see price equals quality. And it's just not true. A lot of the time. In fact, if I'm being honest with you, perception equals quality. So it's like, just be wary of marketing Be wary of because it does. And when I say marketing, I don't mean just like some Superbowl ad, right. Like I see this every time I watch a Superbowl ad, the first thing I think is Oh, if I buy that product, I'm paying for that Superbowl ad

Alex Ferrari 32:33
5.7 million

Ted Sim 32:35
Right, like, I can't buy it, I can't, it's really hard for me to buy a mophie cuz I'm like, Damn, mophie just bought like three Superbowl ads. I'm like, I just wanted a phone charger, I didn't want to pay for it. Likewise, I feel that way. The other type of marketing is where you stand back. And you just price things really high. And you just say we're the best. And this is the price they're paying. And that perception is something that some curse on the show. Some asshole is sitting there thinking that it's just like me at some company that's trying to market stuff and sell stuff to somebody sitting there and thinking by standing back, and by being aloof. And by pricing things Hi, this is how we'll get you to feel like it's worth more. And this is what you do to feel like it's royalty. And I have heard people say that I did in conversations about this stuff. And I just I want indie filmmakers to know, I think they already know this too. But know that one, it's not really the gear, it's the artists but to if you're going to spend the money know what you're actually spending the money. Wine purchases.

Alex Ferrari 33:44
I mean, we were talking a little bit before we got on air about my movie on the corner of ego and desire. And that movie, if you want to talk about quality versus investment, I purchased a 1080 p pocket camera, shot the entire movie on it. I blew it up to 2k and projected it at the Chinese Theater. And nobody believed that I shot it on a little camera the size of my iPhone was shot at raw, but I also knew what I could do with it and post because I have post experience I had those tools in my toolbox just like you know what you could do with certain cameras and certain lenses because that's your that's your toolbox. So I knew what I would get out of it. It's not like I just grabbed an iPhone and shot a movie. I'm like, oh, look how cool. But it's it's a perception where people were like, if I would have led with that people were like, Oh, this is gonna look like crap. And then when I saw projected for the first time I'm like, Oh my god, this is probably one of the prettiest things I've ever shot in my entire life. It was just stunning for the story. I was telling him if this is the Avengers

Ted Sim 34:43
That you know that's not going to fit right it's not it's not gonna fit. A lot of what you're paying for is you're paying for one is like intentional liability, which is that like this thing will last forever and it's built like a tank and it's never going to break too is that you're also asking for like certain ergonomic things of like I just needed to certain features that appear in any filmmaker, you might never use those features. Right? Right. Like DMX is an easy one, right? Like lighting boards and stuff like that. If you need that feature, you need that feature, and most high end shows need that feature. But if you're an indie filmmaker, you're not going to be bringing a light board onto your sets away.

Alex Ferrari 35:17
Unless, unless you're extremely pretentious. Hey, listen, let's I said that Ted didn't say that. If you're an indie filmmaker with a $10,000. Movie, you bust out a lightboard that you've got to evaluate your, your priority, sir or ma'am.

Ted Sim 35:34
There are there are plenty of plenty of talented people that can make it do unless maybe you're using different technology. But yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, I think. So now we're in this weird place where and I would say that the past two and a half years of aperture have been marked by this, right? We've been doing this for seven, eight years now. The past two and a half years in particular have been the indie community loves us. And we've kind of we really, like we came from the bottom zero. There's people that come to the top, if you're looking for the boat, we came from the bottom, we're going up. And we're now at the point that this is the first time I've ever heard this in my life that the low end is like aperture where you go in your gear is becoming too expensive and high end, which is mind blowing for me. But people from the high end are now saying, after stop playing with the kids, we like what you're doing, make it for us. And we're in this weird situation where we're in the middle and nobody's ever happy. And I will say that the high end and the low end of filmmaking they hate each other. It's

Alex Ferrari 36:36
no, there's it's it's two camps. I mean, like, Yeah, when you say you made a movie for five or 10 grand people look at you weird. They're like, how is that even humanly possible? And then in there you How dare you make cinema for that little bit of money? And then there's the high end Guys, look, I'm best friends with some ASC guys who look at what I do sometimes. And they just look at me like, I don't understand. I don't I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't why did you do this?

Ted Sim 37:03
It's, there's there's so much value in both of them. Yes. Yes. There's so much value in both of them. And they're both right. It's just what's the same either,

Alex Ferrari 37:13
But what's the name of each? Yeah, what's the end game of each? Yeah, good. Look, if you're if you if you're making $100 million movie, there's a there's a way to make that movie. If you're making a $10,000 movie. There's a movie. Yeah, that's this. That's better than I could ever say if you did just the so it is so people. But sometimes when you get the problem is and I love this, and I'm sure you've come across this. And so when you get the indie filmmaker, with the indie mentality and an indie film set, and then they get access to a high end dp who's working on a show who's got, you know, a genie budget that's, it's seen, and he can't even understand how he could do anything with less than an Alexa. And, and and what's an avenue, you know, 120 or something like that, that costs $110,000. He can't work without that tool set, because that is what he's used to doing. Where I'm used to just like, get a cool lens, get a cool camera, let's make it happen. And but I've also worked on higher end shows that the budgets, I'm not going to do that on a half a million dollar million dollar show. That's that's that appropriate for that?

Ted Sim 38:21
Yes. And that right there. What you said is what I wish I could tell everybody in terms of there's there's a high end of the low end, and for some reason they hate each other. And I wish I could just tell people on the low end, because it boils down to this, right, like the low end thinks that there's no reason to spend that much money on the high end. I know, I sounded like I was talking before to budget. Yes, you can achieve amazing results with affordable interior, you can do that. But I just want to tell the low end people, there is a really important reason for why people spend so much money on the high end. And that's because everything else costs a lot of money. That's because the details really matter. You're paying for the diminishing return, right? And you really need to pay for that. And those tools are incredible. But it costs a lot of money to really utilize them. Right, but

Alex Ferrari 39:07
you can't like you know, Chapo can't. You want Chavo to have the best paints, the best paintbrush the best canvas to do what he does, you know, or any of these high investor needs masterful tools. He knows the greatest tools, he needs the best. So I want him to have a 65 Alexa, I want him to have, you know, giant cranes that block off, you know, he's flagging off the sun. I want him to do that because that's what a master of his statute deserves to work with. And I'm not saying that he's better or worse than anybody else, but he is a master at what he does. So he you can't do what he does in the films that he does. With you know, with a $10,000 kit, it's just not but now on the other end, if you're making

Ted Sim 39:56
if I tell the high end, the low end is amazing and They can do incredible things for such little money. Please respect that.

Alex Ferrari 40:03
Exactly. And I think it's just like how that happens looking down like How dare you The bottom line is like up looking up and going. I screw you, you elite bastards.

Ted Sim 40:12
Yeah, you guys spend money frivolously you don't realize what you're spending money on. That's not true. The high end knows exactly why they're spending the money that they spent. And there's a precise reason for it.

Alex Ferrari 40:21
And it makes it it makes financial sense because the projects they're working on are by the time they're on set that conversations already be had. It's already been pre sold. They already know how much money they're gonna make. If they're spending $150 million. I promise you unless your cats you're going to make your money. shots. Oh, come on. My best. My favorite my favorite. To eat on cats. I've yet to see the movie. I'm dying to see the movie. I can't wait to see it. Because what happens once in a lifetime, you get once maybe twice in a lifetime of film my cats. Cats is the worst thing to happen to catch since dogs. Cool, good. Just the best review of that movie. Cats is the worst thing to happen to cats and dogs. I just thought that was amazing. So anyway, we've gone off track. Okay, so I'm glad we got into this talk about gear because there is this whole gear porn subculture in the in the filmmaking space. And I've talked a little bit I've had episodes about, stop it with the gear porn, it doesn't matter. I don't care what your cameras I don't care how much you spent. All I care about is the story. And I think and please let me know what you think. And you can deny, you could say you don't want to answer this. But I feel a lot of times that filmmakers use gear as an excuse not to do what they're saying they're supposed to do. Like for me, it took me 20 years to do my first feature, because I kept saying, well, I need this to make that feature film, I need this camera, I need these resources. I can't get out of bed for less than a million, I have to make this movie for a million. I just can't do so then you start using the gear you're like, Oh, well, I need to read this, or I need the Alexa or I need this lens or I need that. And it's an excuse. It's just an excuse to not have to actually get up on plate and take a swing. Would you agree on that?

Ted Sim 42:22
I completely agree to that. And let me the irony of this is, you know, run a frickin gear company. Like, are you Why

Alex Ferrari 42:31
would you want an affordable gear company, at least

Ted Sim 42:33
people can know. But let me just say people livelihood because now we're in a place that people say like aptitude is like the gold standard. For a lot of people out there, right. So let me just say our livelihood depends on people loving and liking and gear and needing gear. You don't. If you're an indie filmmaker out there, people use gear as procrastination, the same way that I see people want to try to make their own studios or buy their own studio, I'm just like the body that has nothing to do with the thing you want to make. You want to make that thing go make that thing, don't do a step a, that leads to a step B, step a that you don't like, with the chance, the off chance that it might lead to a B that you'd like to just do the B start off there start off with the thing that you want to do, just setting out to do. That being said, for the high end people right again, like seriously, though, I understand why. And I understand the results that you're better capable if you geek out about gear, and it's amazing. But for 99.9% of people out there, people just these gears are going to procrastinate. And to research something that research in the best use of our time research is research is code for procrastination most I did a ton of that got

Alex Ferrari 43:43
so much so much. That's why I knew what that red rock handle was because I did I did research on I did. I did so much research,

Ted Sim 43:53
because everyone does what they say I want to I want to work in film, and you know, they sign up for an AI. I'm just as guilty of this as anybody else. Like it's fun to research. It's fun to feel like you're learning when you're not actually learning in the fastest way possible. It feels good, right? Like, and you know, I have people that reach out to me for mobile or reach out to their aperture. And I'm sure you probably get the same thing on indie film hustle. But, you know, I want to say thank you for supporting stuff and being a part of it. But also like, dude, go, go make something if that's your goal, like, like, there's

Alex Ferrari 44:22
a two year old light that you bought from us a couple years ago. It still works. You're good.

Ted Sim 44:28
It thought works. Go go make something like big don't chase your dreams don't chase talking about your dreams. You know, I have no horse in this race. I have no horse in this race. I literally benefit from the opposite. So no, no.

Alex Ferrari 44:42
And the bottom line is that because there's as you know, I know this might sound as a shocking statement, but there are a lot of talkers in our business, who just like to talk and hear their own voice and they don't actually go out and do it. So that's why when someone comes up and says hey, I'm gonna go make something and they actually do it. It is a Revelation, it is an absolute revelation like, oh, he actually gets get something that she gets something done, as opposed to talking about it for a year. We all know that. That writer has been working on that screenplay for five years now one screenplay for five years. We all know, look, I knew a guy who directed a short film. And it lasted for years in post, five years in post, because he just kept tweaking and moving and this and that, because he never, if he let go of it, he would have nothing else. And he knew that was the only thing he was gonna like, he felt like that was the only thing he was gonna get. So there's that, that and then they use gear they use, oh, I needed to be perfect or this and that. And all of a sudden you wake up and you're 70.

Ted Sim 45:39
And let me let me just say to like, I think part of mogul is. And again, he's these kids all the time to that we talk to high end, like the best ASC filmmakers out there every week. And when we talk, they tell us, every single one of them has some story about like, Oh, we didn't really have the tool we needed. So we had to just Jerry rigged this.

Alex Ferrari 45:58
Right? Absolutely. Absolutely funny has that

Ted Sim 46:01
story. So if that story exists on the top of the top highest end production, why are you using your lack of gear as an excuse to not get something done on the lower production?

Alex Ferrari 46:12
Every dp I've ever worked with has had some sort of magic rig, magic light, that cost $5. That gives us like the coolest strobe effect or something like that. When I had I had Russell Carpenter on the show a while ago, he's amazing. Russell is amazing for everyone who doesn't know Russell as he was the DP of Titanic and the new avatars and Ant Man and stuff. And you know, everyone was and I was going to get into to True Lies and Titanic but the first question I asked him, like, so critters too. How was that? He's like, wha no one's asked ever asked me about critters to have like, Oh, yes. We're gonna get to Titanic and True Lies and Batman and all the other ones. But critters too. How did you like that? Because I want to know how you Russell Carpenter Academy Award winning as a cinematographer. Yeah, lit critters, too. And it was just such a wonderful conversation. But I put it in the show notes, because I know people are gonna go, I want to listen to that. So it was a fun, fun conversation. But it's so true cinematographers. I mean, I've gotten I've worked with so many cinematographers over the course of my career, and they will just come up with like these homemade rigs. Like I remember, I'm not certain that's a circle, like what is called like a rim, a gremlin ring, like a ring. Like, before ring lights were ring lights, you know, there was the wooden built ring light with light bulbs built in. This is like going back into the 90s for like music, video style. I

Ted Sim 47:47
still know DPS that are using like strip lights that are just like, they basically look like makeup lights, but they bring them on. And do they bring them onto big sets. And literally like a Home Depot strip of deacons

Alex Ferrari 47:57
did and deacons did that for like blades.

Ted Sim 47:59
Yeah. All the time. Absolutely. Most, your your, you know, everything goes according to plan until it doesn't right. And like your job is to when it doesn't go according to plan. So, you know, stop freaking out. Just don't have the tools you feel like you need for things to go according to plan, start moving and getting ready and preparing and practicing to just let things get out of hand and figure it out. That's the job. And

Alex Ferrari 48:26
so we could keep talking about gear for about another 45 minutes but or four or five hours, but I wanted to get into Indy Mogul man, because when I heard you, you went over to Indy Mogul. I was like, well, this this I didn't see this coming.

Ted Sim 48:40
And a lot of people saw it coming. And people are happy. Who knows? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 48:45
So I had Griffin on the show. And I asked him like, wow, to attend get involved. Like I didn't and he's like, he's like, No, I was great. He was great. He wanted to bring him in and it just all worked out and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, you know, Griffin is and like the sweetest like Canadian sweet. Canadian sweet. He's Canadian. Sweet. You could quote me on that. He's like super Canadians. But He's so nice because but so you so how did you get involved with Indy Mogul and explain to people who have not, God forbid have not heard of any mo because it is one of the original YouTube channels, teaching filmmaking on on the platform. So tell me how you got involved and how the whole story happened?

Ted Sim 49:24
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so basically, we we've always been been in touch with the YouTube community. We've always been in touch with the online community of filmmakers. And back when any mobile had its first little comeback, they were talking about it and I reached out and just said, Hey, big fan of the channel. I watched the channel. I honestly watched the channel, way, way back when Watson reached out just to say, hey, as a fan, if you ever need anything, just let us know. I'll send him some lights. You don't have to do anything. I don't care. As long as you know you don't do anything with it. I'll send it to you. And we started talking and as we talked, once called Justin, the original founder actually reached out and Then, do you have were thinking about bringing in another host? Do you have anybody that you think would be a good recommendation, because you know, all the online people. So I made this long list of like, all the people that I thought were great. And again, it goes through this podcast, I'm sure you probably have seen a video from probably most of those people on a long list of all the people that I think are great. And here's the reasons why. and sent it. And it's kind of radio silence, right? I didn't really get a response. But I was like, man, I was, like, kind of rude. I like putting all this time and like, you know, I was trying to support some people. And eventually, like, a couple months passed, and, you know, like, a good idea kind of stops you. It's doxy, right? Like, you can't shake it, you know, you're you're, you're eating tornados that 4:30pm in the afternoon by yourself. And the idea comes back. And the idea was really simple. It's just, you know, what would happen if I just asked and said, You know, I am a huge fan of the show, I've loved it since the very beginning, I know all the hosts. This is a point in which to that apertured been doing we've been doing wedding content forever. And you know, a lot of people like the channel, but so many people have come up to me too, and said, Can you teach things that are just lighting? Can you bring in people or experts that can show us other things and doesn't really make sense for aperture and teach like Chrome piloting, or like, script writing doesn't make sense at all. So I was thinking, it was already kind of cooking that maybe we just started like a separate channel, or maybe it'll be like a 10 cent channel or something different. I gotta be honest, a lot of the motivation for that. And the motivation of the after channel in the first place was I, the longer I was here at aperture, the longer I was offset. And you know, the film industry, man, it changes so fast. Every day it changes. It's so hard to keep up with it. And like that's why it's great to have online education and things like this podcast will keep up. But I was feeling a little bit like all the tools that people were using on set were changing. So for me at aperture, people think it's just an educational thing. But guess what, it's also educational for me because I get to go I get to invite my favorite freakin VP in the world to come out. Teach us some things about lighting, and I am always in the know, and they brought me back on the set. And, you know, it's made everything that much better with mogul. Basically, I reached out and I said, Hey, like, what do you think about this idea? You know? And I reached out, they were like, well, like, you know, this was like a part of the reason, you ask a question like, hey, do you know of anyone, we're

Alex Ferrari 52:32
Just trying to be kind, as we want to take you to the prom. It was.

Ted Sim 52:38
It was great. It ended up being like this perfect fit. And we ended up talking to Eric and Justin about it. And they've been talking about how they wanted to see the show have new life. And I think for me, one of the biggest things that I was worried about was you know, I'm not like Eric who's like a practical effects genius, right? Like, I'm not like Zach Finn rock who is like a props master who can like make you anything, you can build you frickin district nine robot out of his out of Legos and spare parts, I can't do that stuff. So for me, it was, you know, what? What can I do? You know, I really like any mogul. And just like how Griffin kind of brought this DIY kind of documentary angle, what can I bring? I started thinking about it. And I think one of the best things of being a part of aperture. And we also have, we'll have daily microphones students here too, is that we've been in touch with some of the most amazing filmmakers ever. So like, you know, we go to the ASC awards every year. We know all the people that shoot all the big features every single year. And I know all the teams that work under them, too. And I think one of the biggest things for me was I had already talked before, but hey, maybe bringing on those teams to do like an avatar video, but it's too branded, right? It doesn't make sense. So the one thing that I could bring to mogul is I can bring this network of people that I know. And I'm gonna tell you right now, too, and I say this on the show, too, but I'm not. I'm not like a set expert. I'm not a lighting technician. I'm not those people know more than me. But what I can do is I can bring someone and if you ask me a question, how do you do this thing, I can bring someone that's an expert about it. And I will happily sit there with you and learn. Because that's my job. And I need to be in the know about that stuff. So lately mobile has been a lot about bringing in we brought out like beating Papa Michael, who's the head VP of acbp, performance Ferrari ram launch here, which is Joker. So it's just it's now it's become this amazing thing where it's half me geeking out and fanboying because I'm sitting next to my favorite makers of all time. It's amazing. It's half me learning and being able to keep in the know and like when I asked questions on that show. I'm genuinely asking like, how did you do this? geeking out. Honestly. I think all the questions I asked on that show are like real questions. Now I sit there and I get to ask my favorite filmmakers. How did you do the thing that you do? And

Alex Ferrari 54:52
I feel Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what I do and how I've learned so much doing my show is when I asked when I asked a question I really want to know, like I had when I had Russell on? I'm like, so Titanic. Yeah. James Cameron, how was that?

Ted Sim 55:07
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of people look at it like it's just this like marketing thing or like a money making scheme. And like I'll say right now, like, Marvel doesn't make it, we really don't make any money. All the money that we make goes to the editors that make the show. And honestly, the editors that make the show are amazing. And I'll say the names right now 20. Austin, are just amazing. And the reason that the show is able to exist, and that I'm still able to do avature is because those guys do the heavy lifting of making the episodes happen. I come I spend some time I learn, I get to talk, I get to meet filmmakers. And then I'm out honestly, and those guys put together the show and all the episodes that people watch and enjoy. And what that does is it gives me the time and the ability to still be a part of the actor, dt team still work together and still be able to keep a company together.

Alex Ferrari 55:53
So that's amazing dude, and you've been able to accomplish in such a short amount of time, dude is pretty amazing. I mean, you, you're definitely hustling out there, man. And like, and like, like I said, hustle, hustle recognizes hustle, man. So yeah, I got an a side note, I think I told you off air. But I want to say it on air, the only light that I used on when shooting on the corner view and desire was an aperture light. And the few times we use light, because we were all natural lighting mostly was one little LED light. And we just I bounced it off walls and stuff like that. And it was great. It was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Ted Sim 56:34
Dude, you gotta you gotta you gotta let me know about like, if there's anything in terms of feedback, or features or anything like that, that you need, cuz that's, that's literally that's how we make everything now is it's just people tell us a list of stuff that goes into a little list. And then that's what the engineers work on. They just work on that list of things. That's like people. That's the thing is that most people that make stuff, they're not actually on set. And I'm not like the engineers aren't on set, you know? So let's just ask the people that are on set to tell us what the heck they want. And then we'll make that thing.

Alex Ferrari 57:06
Stop it. Stop it. That just makes way too much sense. That makes sense, right? Like, oh, that would break the easy rule. So you don't want to do that. You don't want to break the easy rule. Now, dude, what is the biggest challenge you think facing filmmakers today?

Ted Sim 57:23
That's a crazy question. Got a slanted view of this stuff to be honest. Um, do you mean in terms of

Alex Ferrari 57:40
Just as a child like as a challenge on as filmmakers as the industry in general? Because, look, there's always challenges with gear, there's always challenges was finding money. There's always fun challenges of making money with a film like where do you think you feel that the biggest challenges because before in the 80s, and 90s, it was technology was arguably one of the bigger challenges because you could just make a movie and it was sold? It's done? Did you accomplish the 35 millimeter movie you no matter good or bad again, sold? Today, technology is not really an issue anymore. Especially with good companies like aperture and Blackmagic. And some other ones that are really affordable, high quality, make things high quality, high quality, super affordable, make a movie? Absolutely, absolutely you could. But in the general in the in the whole industry. I just love to hear your perspective on where you think the larger challenge is for filmmakers moving forward.

Ted Sim 58:37
Me, let me say it was not the problem first, and I think I'm moving around on circles. If you ask anyone on the high end, what's the problem of filmmaking, they're gonna say, the low end, they're gonna say that that dude down there is taking my gig and shooting it for way less, and he's taking no money or working for free or whatever the heck, he's ruining my industry, right? And I'm sure there's someone listening that feels that way. Of course, if you look on the low end, and you ask them, you know, what's the problem facing the industry? It's, Oh, those high end people won't give me a chance, even though I'm just as good as them and just as technical as I can make something that's just as good. I've heard both of these. I'm not gonna be honest. Neither is the problem here. The Times have just changed, man. I'm sorry that, yes, don't get me wrong. I'm sure that there's someone out there, if you're on the high end of the low end person has cut and taken your gig because some company found out Hey, I can pay a third of the price and get the commercial somewhere else I get this. But you also got to realize that we live in a time where the demand for content is higher than ever than it's ever been. And because of that there's more jobs and gigs and need for video and content, whether it's online digital commercials, and I know everyone hates making an Instagram ad and in the vertical form. I know that everybody hates that right. But those are real content, jobs. Those are real video gigs. That didn't exist before. And guess what most of the people that take those jobs are more And filmmakers, right. So the problem isn't each other. And I don't think the problem is that there's less jobs in the industry, there's more jobs than ever. I think if you're an independent filmmaker, and you want to do narrative, a problem is marketing. And the problem is making a film that actually provides value to somebody. Marketing isn't the same way that it used to be if you're looking for talking about industries that have changed, oh my god, filmmaking and marketing together, and things like crazy. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:33
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Ted Sim 1:00:43
If you're a filmmaker that doesn't know how to market your movie, or yourself for that matter, or yourself, for that matter, you're dead in the water. And I think a great example of that is, you know, I think this year peanut butter Falcon came up. Yeah. We talked about talking to dp and the team amazing, so good. And they shot it for like, next to nothing, man. It didn't get into Sundance, it went to South by Southwest instead. I know a lot of people are like, yeah, of course, it went to South by Southwest. There's so many films that go to South by Southwest and don't go anywhere.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:13
Most.

Ted Sim 1:01:16
Most folks go and don't go anywhere, right. I'm sure people are like, that's not the case. The problem is that the traditional ways that I've worked for marketing, which are, you know, festival term, or there's people that will make it with festivals, but they're not as potent as they used to be. It used to be like, you get into Sundance, that was your way. And it was it was actually

Alex Ferrari 1:01:34
The ticket wasn't to get it was it was a golden It was a golden ticket. You got into Sundance, you got your movie sold, you had a career period.

Ted Sim 1:01:40
And and it was possible to get into Sundance because it wasn't this like super corporate high end Hollywood thing that it is. Now I'm not saying that it's super, super corporate. But I'm saying that, you know, a list of movie stars are now in Sundance movies, which is that's strange, right? That's strange in some degree. So you can't look at all these traditional, can't look to a PR firm, because you probably don't have the money. If you're doing an indie film. You got to look at yourself in terms of social media, and how can I promote this movie, that's why I bring up a peanut butter Falcon example. Because, dude, I saw a ridiculous number of advertisements for peanut butter. I saw a ridiculous number of advertisements for parasite that I got targeted on Facebook and on Instagram. And I know friends that got targeted those as well, like a 24 is doing an amazing job for social media marketing. And I think there's someone out there thinking, Oh, that I have to hire a social media marketing firm. No, dude, learn how to do this learn, I guarantee that you can learn this. And you can probably do this better than a lot of the the older marketing people out there that don't even have a Facebook or don't even have an Instagram or if they do they don't know how to use it. I think it's social media is kind of the computer of our generation, right? It's the thing that gives you an edge over people that have way more experience than you are able to use it to promote your movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:52
I mean, if you look at every industry throughout time, especially in the industrial revolution, when electricity was coming around, and the light bulb was coming around, people were like, No, no, that's too dangerous. kerosene is the future. Because there was an entire kerosene industry ran by Rockefeller who owned the oil. And he was like, No, no, I don't want you to mess with my kerosene business. Or when trains came in versus horse and buggy, or when the car came in versus horse and buggy. There's always the old, the old, the old guard does not want to let go of the power and the the money that they have. And the new guard is Oh, the new technology, the new thing is always going to win. Always, always, always. I mean, from the the record the record industry. When the mp3 showed up, they fought and fought and fought and lost. When blockbuster saw Netflix, they fought and fought and fought and lost. And you know, and it just goes industry and industry and industry. And a lot of what we're talking about the massive changes that have happened in our industry. We're talking the last basically the last 15 to 20 years. Basically since basically 2000 it's been like every year, it's like exponentially changed. I mean, when I released my first film, my first short in 2005 YouTube had just launched. Yeah, so you know, and there was streaming was like, you couldn't get like MMR YouTube's quality was horrible and all of this stuff and

Ted Sim 1:04:26
And a lot of filmmakers that blew up from those early streams. You know, it was like

Alex Ferrari 1:04:32
Casey Neistat, Casey Neistat is the nice that he was he was the first one but I have to say because I was telling you, I was gonna tell you the story of how I should have control. Yes, I want to hear this. Okay, so in 2005 when YouTube was a year old, maybe it was before pre Google and I I created a DVD for my short film broken that had like 100 visual effects shots in and we shot it on DVD x 100 a panda Sonics it was it was pimp asik with with a wide angle adapter. So we had a nice oh yeah, the screw on wide angle adapter dude Oh yeah. Oh yeah, it was nice to camera in the in the days he was like please give me something that looks like a movie, it was 24 p were you kidding me was like the first 24 p camera not that canon XL crap like real 24 P. So we had two camera setup, then we had we edited on Final Cut four, five, something like that. And we did our visual effects and shake. And we had like 100 visual effects shots in it. And I put together a three and a half hour gorilla film school on how we did it. Because in the marketplace, there was nothing about how to make an indie film. Nothing. There was just no, I mean, you you had Robert Rodriguez is 10 out of 10 minute film schools, which is great, Robert, you're making seven $8 million movies, not helping me. So I wanted to I wanted to create product that could be you know, help filmmakers, independent filmmakers, even in 2005, I started and then I'll tell you why I left in a second. So I created this and I actually put up tutorials on YouTube, which are still on YouTube, you can go back and check them. And I would have kept going. And if I would have opened up a channel and I would have kept creating more of these tutorials on how to do it. I would have owned everything I would have been viewed. But then this is where this nasty thing called the ego shows up. And the ego said no, no, no, you are a filmmaker, you are not an educator. You're not a teacher, you're a filmmaker, why would you teach? Why would you want to teach? And then I went off and stopped doing it. And then it took me 10 years to come back to 2015. And I opened up indie film hustle. During those 10 years I would Can you imagine dude, can you imagine if I would have started making Sean merge, it would i would have would have owned everyone, it would be a complete loser conversation. But they are still up there. I got like five or six of those videos that are still up there in their little tutorials and how we did stuff and there was just nothing else up there. So that's how I that that's the one of the many close calls.

Ted Sim 1:07:15
I think, you know, at the end of the day, it always comes down to whatever the heck you're working on and take it really seriously. Dude, I can say the same thing about my time adapter. I didn't expect to be here this long, dude. You just don't know. You never know. And you got to put. You got to take everything seriously that you do. And believe me, I feel the same way about like it. But the one thing about is that it's never too late. That's another excuse that people say all the time. I missed my golden window. I know people that you know, that's a lot of the reason why people don't start channels or they don't start an Instagram.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:50
It's gonna take it's gonna take too long, it's gonna take too long. And they say, look, the same thing happened with me with indie film, hustle. I started in 2015. There was other podcast going on at the time. I mean, I'm not the first indie film podcast. Yeah. But I'm the most forever too late dude. I'm the most prolific. You know, I got almost 400 episodes of justice one podcast, because I just kept pounding it. And all of a sudden, by just as daily and weekly, pounding and grinding, all of a sudden you look back and go, Oh my god, I'm almost at 400. And you get it? Yeah. And then you have to start. You have to start like I turned, I woke up one day at 41, almost 41 to 40. And I said to myself, I have not made my feature film yet. And I can't do this anymore. I'm not 25 I got to go out and make it and 30 days later, I was shooting my first feature. Yeah, that that's simple, not because of like, Oh, I need this. I need that. No, we just got to go out and do it. And if it's good or bad, irrelevant, you learn you move on, you keep going. I would rather make 10 bad movies. Then wait 10 years to make one good one.

Ted Sim 1:08:57
You know what, because I'll learn more because it takes you 10 years to make every movie to you are not in business.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:02
You're Cooper. Cooper hilleberg is the only one that can make that work.

Ted Sim 1:09:07
And even Kubrick has practiced, he practiced it, you know, and he was able to do this. I you know, it's the same thing. My brother works at Amazon, and people are listening. And they're like, Amazon has to do with filmmaking, one of the number one rules at any tech company. And the reason I had to study this too is because I run I run a tech company is you have to throw out your first draft as quickly as possible, you have to get it done as quickly as possible. That is the hardest, most painful thing in the building in the world to do is to throw out this like half baked idea, especially with art because it's like some reflection of your soul. And I'm sure that if you're listening, you probably told a lot of people. I'm a filmmaker, I'm a filmmaker. I'm a filmmaker, which is why that when you show someone a movie that's bad, and you and they watch it, they're like, oh this is bad. But this person has been telling me his entire life that this is the thing he's born to do. I get that right that is horribly painful. It is painful. painful thing in the world, it's hard to say I'm born to be an actor and then be put on a bad performance. But at the same time, you're never gonna do anything unless you just start throwing stuff out there, man. And Amazon does this tech companies do this on all the throw out, you throw out a horrible Bad idea in the beginning. And then you reiterate. And the faster you can start reiterating, the faster you can start practicing, the better the result, I would say, model is doing the same thing to when we first started, we were like, We have no idea what this is gonna look like, let's just start making stuff. And then you start to realize, what can I do long term what actually makes sense? What, what is fun, what is enjoyable, where's that balance? Everything's about?

Alex Ferrari 1:10:38
I actually talked about it in, in my book about the 10,000. We all heard about the 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell said horse, but but the argument was that there was a new thing, it's not 10,000 hours to learn one skill. It's a 10,000 experiments. So you have to keep doing it and doing it and do it because you learn more from trying and failing than you do from just just training to do the one thing again, and again and again. And example is Zuckerberg says that at any one time, there's 10,000 versions of Facebook going on every day, that they're the algorithm is constantly shifting, it's changing. They're trying new things. That's why Amazon's the same way. There's like, No, I mean, to get what Amazon has done and honed in, it's taken decades of just tightening and tweaking and every inch of that screen has been thought about it 10,000 times and we're you know, to the point where now you don't even think about it like you, I forget that I could buy something locally because it's so easy to buy it on Amazon you know, and I studied tech companies a lot because of their the new Rockefellers Carnegie's the or that they are the giants, the Titans are of this time, which is the information age. And then I've tried to bring as much of that information and knowledge to the film industry because there's a subgroup.

Ted Sim 1:12:02
Yeah. And because most filmmakers Don't even think about business. And unfortunately, this is a business it is and who is spending the most money on business? And what is the most efficient work process tech companies? So how are they doing it? Because there's some method to the madness. And the method is iterate as quickly as you can just start on things out there and I think it's harder in art than in tech because tech you can be like, Hey, we have this good prototype right? Take a look at this kind of sucks, but it'll be something someday, right? Yeah, a lot easier to do that than just someone your your bad writing and your bad movie, but I don't know any way around this.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:43
You know what to say? Look, look. I love the room. I think the room is one of the greatest films of all time. And maybe not for the reasons that Tommy was so thinks it was the greatest films of all times. But I personally think the room there's always something for somebody.

Ted Sim 1:12:59
How are you approaching this? Are you talking about like you love it in a way of like, he threw something out there as quickly as possible.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:05
And no, no, no, no. If you want to have this conversation about the room, I can have this conversation about the room because I love the room. And I'm not ashamed of it. I think I'm one of many millions of people who love the room. The reason I love the room so much is one Tommy was so is our modern day Ed Wood where there is so much passion and delusion in his filmmaking process that all he sees is his art form. It's not obviously an art form that anybody else saw because he was like literally having sex with someone's belly in the middle of a sexy there's you know, and multiple other millions of things that went on in the room that you know, we were shooting. Oh my goodness, I didn't I didn't when we were shooting. So when we're shooting on the corner of ego desire at Sundance, all of my crew and all of the actors had never seen the room. So one night we're like, you know, we're breaking I'm like Okay guys, we're watching the room so we go online and we we rent it and we start watching it and you can't watch the room by yourself you have to watch it with somebody else because if not it's just weird. I can't watch the room by myself I need another filmmaker I need somebody else to like you. Did you just see what I saw banter and chat and building and I would sit there and we were watching it and you just see people going Why is there why what's Why is it the same stock footage from San Francisco? What's going on? I'd like What is he talking to a dog what is like there's so why is your pictures of spoons What is happening? Like it's so bad. That has transcended good. Like there are movies that are just bad to be bad sake. Like I saw that documentary about the worst film ever made troll two which is an amazing documentary. And then I went to watch troll true. I can't troll to his horror I like it's so bad. It's just I felt a little bit of my soul die when I saw that film but the room here is so much passion and love behind the filmmaker that did it and I know people who worked on the crew by the way. Yeah, is as crazy as he is as As delusional as Tommy was when he was making it and it's stupid as the way the filmmaking process was, was shooting it on video on HD and on film, and all the craziness that happened, the passion of his vision spills off the screen in a way that you can't like it's not manufactured. It's not it's authentic. And that's what people are reacting to in the room is the authenticity of his insanity. is what people because we've all seen bad movies. We've all seen movies that are just so bad. You're like, I can't Why is this just bad? cinema? Why did someone waste time with this? When you see the room, there's just something magical about it that you just go in this can't be like that, because he's serious. Because if he was not serious about and he was inside the joke, it wouldn't work. But he really felt like he was making this. He really felt like he was making a masterpiece. And when everyone laughed at the the premiere, he was like, Oh, I meant to make a comedy. No, you didn't. But that's okay. And and look where it got him. Like, you know, he's blown up. And he's internationally still making millions of dollars a year off of this. This little movie that is horrible. But I loved it. And you're gonna and by the way, you're gonna see a cameo from someone from the room in on the corner of ego and desire. I'll leave it at that.

Ted Sim 1:16:20
Oh my gosh. You know, I, I will I will watch the room again, at some point, and I'll be sure to remember.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:35
You have to watch it with a friend. You got to watch it with friends. If there's alcohol. If there's alcohol in play, it's even better. Even better if you can watch it at Sundance even better. This these are the other things but um, it's so it just transcends like you watch it would you watch like pan nine from outer space you just go you there's there's so much love behind it. Like there's just so much insanity in mind. Okay, did you ever see Edward the movie? Tim burns movie, Edward. I don't think I have to do okay, you're okay. Okay. Your homework assignments. Ted. You need to obviously, watching Edward. Obviously watching myself on your watch. You're obviously watching my movie. But after you watch my movie, you've got to watch and would Tim Burton's and Edward any filmmaker? Yes, will cry in that movie, because you could just see the love ambition and the love and the insanity, the insanity of him and he has to wear his angora sweaters and like, and the carnival crew of people that he brought around him, like is like one of my favorite scenes in the movie, and you'll appreciate this. It's all shot in black and white. But he comes up at the the the the costume designer comes up and like what dress Do you want her to wear? Do you want to wear the red one? Or the blue one? And then Johnny Depp was playing it would goes, it gets a dp to come over and the DPS you know, some old really old dp. He goes, which one will work better in the movie? He's like, Oh, no, I'm colorblind.

The judge is like, well, they're right what it is all right, let's move on. Like he doesn't nothing stop nothing. Like he, like one of the actors bumps into the bumps into a wall, the whole damn, set shakes. And he's like, cut perfect print. Let's move on. And everyone's like, no, no. I mean, should we do another tech why that was perfect. He was so crazy. delusional. It's like you. There's certain human beings or certain artists that could do things like that. And they're once in a generation, I feel that Tommy was so is one of those guys. He can't do it again. Like it. He can't recreate that he can't make another movie. He's tried to make him be ridiculously Ernest, Ernest D. That makes it but he can't do that anymore. Because he understands what's going on. So he it's just never gonna happen to get that movie is such a unique snapshot in time. That will live with us, arguably, forever. It's, it is fascinating.

Ted Sim 1:19:02
I can see that in that in that view of art. I can see how that is a eternal Once in a Lifetime movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:09
Just you can't read. I couldn't remake that if I tried. Like if I want it to go out and make a movie badly enough. Because I would know the job possible. I would know the job was to software. It's not funny. It's Rebecca Black's Friday, right. Like, Ernest to be as funny as it is. Yeah, exactly. That's what makes it where we've gone completely off topic, but this is fine. I think everyone, I think everyone's enjoyed it. All right. I mean, we could keep talking for hours, brother. But let me ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Ted Sim 1:19:49
Think outside the box is everything that someone, everything that's worked for someone that is 2030 years older than you. I don't Like it's gonna work for you, because the times change so quickly. And yes, every right.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:05
It's not 1991 you are not Robert Rodriguez, it's not gonna happen that way anymore. Guys, it's gonna work the same way. It works a different way,like YouTube.

Ted Sim 1:20:14
That's what I mean by the research and things that you're doing right now. And you're guaranteed people are researching, they research the way that old people made it, it's not going to be the way that you're going to make and I'm sorry, it's just not the industry is changing too much. Try something new. Do it earnestly put all your effort into it, and just see what happens. And you might be surprised.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:35
It could fall flat on its face, or you can have the room. Okay. Are those the only two options we have? I really is that. I mean, it could be really bad. Or it could be the room? it I don't know, that's really.

Ted Sim 1:20:55
Now what is a horribly hard ban. I mean, everyone listening to this knows this, but it's just like, it's tough out there man took a look.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:03
If anyone, if anyone listens to my podcast understands how I mean, I've given a lot of tough love conversations and tough love episodes, where I'm like, you know, follow your dream, but Don't be an idiot, you know. And, you know, and all my work is about trying to break down the realities of the film business while still being supportive, while still being motivated, while still trying to educate them. And like I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's going to be harder than you've ever imagined. But I'm going to show you, at least from my perspective, tools that can help you learn that path. You know,

Ted Sim 1:21:33
Yeah, like, you know, I'm one of the things that I like to think is like, if you were doing this in any other industry, would this be a waste of time? Yes. Or, like if you were if you spent five years working on a screenplay. Let's just pretend like la has this weird thing. And so he has this thing. No one's got this

Alex Ferrari 1:21:54
Coffeeshops final draft and coffee shops. Yeah, I get it. I get

Ted Sim 1:21:56
Yes, definitely. It's got this, this way of making, wasting your time seem like a normal thing to do. And you you can fall into that into that vagueness, you can fall into that that lazy river, because you'll sit in the lazy river forever. And one of the things that helps is if you're not from that city, go home and just just look around and be like, if I lived in, you know, from Baltimore, so I'll say Baltimore, I lived in Baltimore, and I spent five years working on something. How would people view me, they see you as a bomb. I'm sorry, they would view you as a bomb. But for some reason, when you're in LA, and you tell somebody working on your screenplay for five years, they're like, oh, it must be really good. Just don't let yourself fall into that. Look at it. Like you're looking at it like any other job seriously. It must be really good. But let's let's just assume like, you know, like, say you did want to work and you want to be like a lawyer or something. And you just said like, Oh, I'm just like, studying this for the bar and contract for five years. What? So you're, you're a bum? You got a treat? You got to be that cutthroat about it. You can't just say Oh, because I'm in the film industry. This is okay. It's it's, it's not okay. And I don't mean this to say this as a bummer. Because I'm sure someone's like, Man, that really bummed me out. No, I'm not trying to say that I'm just, it's easier to say things that are nice and like, everything's fine. It is harder to say things like, you need to get your you get your stuff together, because that means that we actually care. And that's the only reason why I'm saying this is because I do actually care for this poor soul out there that's lost in the LA River of screenplays and coffee shops. The horrible situation but

Alex Ferrari 1:23:38
Like I always say, anytime I jump into an Uber, I always go so how's the screenplay going? And they go, How'd you know? It's either how, how's the screenplay going? How's the screenplay going? or How was the casting call? It's one of those two. And it's, it's sad, but it's true. And I'm not trying to lose. We all have to hustle. We all got to do our things. I'm, I'm making a joke. But you know if, if anything, I've done more than enough to help the community so I can make occasional joke. It's okay.

Ted Sim 1:24:15
If you're doing it for like six months or something like that, and get your thing started. Trust me that's different.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:20
No, no, it looks like you know, the duplass brothers right? Course mark and Jay right. So the duplass brothers when they first got back from Sundance with puffy chair, they were the toast of the town. So they went on the water bottle tour, you know, the water ball to around to all the agencies and all the studios in the lounge and you got to give it a water ball. Yeah. And you just end up with everything. You say no, and you and you meet them. You meet everybody like we want to work with you want to work with you. What's your project, let's put it up. Let's get in development. And a year goes by and they go, we haven't made anything. So they decided to call up their agents and say, we're not taking any more meetings. And they're like, but that's the way this town runs. You've got to take me He's like, nope, we're gonna go make stuff. Sorry. Yeah. And it worked out okay.

Ted Sim 1:25:05
I felt all mixed up and they will call it's the, you know, when I was doing commercials all the same thing it was, it was never because you had a great meeting. It was always because they watched something that they liked and they were like, Can you make? And let's be real. It's always Can you make this again? but for us it cheaper? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, you're lucky though. Like maybe we'll make it a little bit nice if you're lucky. If you're lucky.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:29
Yeah, it always comes from what you do. Once you do creates more action for sure. When you were doing commercials, didn't you love when they said, you go out and you bid a job for like, you know, puppies, there's going to be a horse in the shot and the like, but there's no horses on your reel. Dude, it's a horse. I don't need to pull a performance from the horse. Are you kidding? I mines was dialogue. I had done all non dialogue stuff I had no one's speaking because commercials you don't have to speak you know? And everyone's like, but how do you we don't know if you can direct act like can you get I'm like, Guys, this is not Godfather, man. It's like, hey, iPhone. Like it's not like it's your lines. Guys. Are you kidding me?

Ted Sim 1:26:11
It's people that are scared of looking down in front of their bosses. Right? Some some see some see some Greg's eye somewhere is like is holding on for dear life being like if I just keep working this job for 40 years, I'll be head and Korea head of creative at one of these places. But I just can't get fired in the meanwhile. So they want to recommend the safest option. Every single time

Alex Ferrari 1:26:34
Just in case,just in case you as a director screw up. I'm like, Well, everything on paper looked okay. It's not my friend

Ted Sim 1:26:40
I picked the exact guy that has lots of horror stuff on his reel. And he did the horse thing for our horse commercial I was there was no one could blame me for this decision. Truly, there was no one better, better.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:50
I mean, he is the horse guy. Like it's like, Oh, Jesus. Alright, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Ted Sim 1:27:01
I'm still learning this lesson, but fail fast. And everyone's heard this. Everybody has heard this, you don't really understand what it means. You don't understand what it means you think fail fast means like, write it write a first draft. And then like, look at it again tomorrow. No, I mean, like, write something that's awful, and show it to a lot of people. And you gotta gotta get used to that. And I don't care what industry you're in, I don't care if you're a writer, if you're a filmmaker, if your cinematographer go shoot something horrible, and stand next to it, and be like, this is the thing that I made. It's so hard, but just do it earlier than later get used to that feeling feel comfortable in that feeling. It's something that like, I wake up every day and again, you know, these days I'm doing I'm doing more company running through stuff. So I made probably five decisions that I regret every day. And you have to go back on them and say, you know what we tried? Because you can't just do the same thing all the time. Well, those are not going to go anywhere.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:59
Right? They're very good advisor. Now, what was the biggest fear you had to overcome to make your very first film?

Ted Sim 1:28:07
Oh, man. I don't know if I'm a great person to ask this question to

Alex Ferrari 1:28:12
Because you're fearless. Are you fearless?

Ted Sim 1:28:14
No, no, I don't think that you think Well, the question would be greatest fear.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:19
The greatest fear you had to overcome to make you first fear to make your first project to shoot your first thing.

Ted Sim 1:28:25
Just looking dumb. Yeah, everyone's afraid of that. Right? It's It's scary to say this thing I'm born to do and then make something bad. It's like, well, what were you born for them? That's literally what that's

Alex Ferrari 1:28:36
You've attached your personality to your job or to your career.

Ted Sim 1:28:38
And I'm born to do look at this thing. It's mediocre. was I born for a mediocre reason? No, that's the people feel that way. And I take that myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:49
Just be careful. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Ted Sim 1:28:55
I hate this question. actually asked this question for team members as a joke. And we just like it because I feel like no matter what answer you give, everyone, either they either give you the or they just rail into you. I decided that my answer to this question is Ratatouille and all movies are based on the Ratatouille scale? It does the movie have a rat in it? It's a six out of 10 got the movie cooking in it. It's a seven out of 10. Okay, the rat cooks, it's a nine out of 10 and up to two zeros on this list of movies over beers. Okay, fair enough. I get a lot of movies.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:32
So where can people find you and what you're doing online?

Ted Sim 1:29:36
Yeah, absolutely. Anyone that cares about technology and gear and again, I'd say this instant fully standing by all the stuff that I say about gear research to be procrastination. For some people, it's also just their true and deep love. They really love gear. And honestly, there's a part of me that really does love the technology behind it. sponsor. aperture is probably the easiest place for that. And then any model of courses where we're just having fun hanging out, learning about filmmaking, and I'm learning along just with everybody else, bringing on people, I think a lot of the guests that we bring on our recommendations from people that watch, so Indy Mogul as well to wherever on YouTube, we have podcasts.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:16
They're cool. But thank you so much for coming on, man. I know, we could talk for at least another four or five hours, but you're a busy man. And I got things to do as well. But I do appreciate it. I would love to have you back sometime. And it was it was great, man. So thanks for being on the show, brother.

Ted Sim 1:30:29
Yeah it's fun. Thanks, I appreciate it.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 395: The Art of Television Cinematography w/ Jayson Crothers

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:04
I like to welcome the show Jason Crothers, man. How you doing, brother?

Jason Crothers 4:02
I'm wonderful. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 4:03
Oh, I'm, I'm living the quarantine life. My friend. Live in that quarantine life.

Jason Crothers 4:09
You, you need some shaving like I just gave up on shaving. So

Alex Ferrari 4:13
I shaved my head. I shaved my head. I gave up. I've had longer hair for about two and a half, three years and I just said I looked at my wife and she's like, why don't you just shave it off? I'm like, really? She's like, yeah, just shave it off. Like you're not gonna see a barber anytime soon. So even if you just let it grow out by the time it's grown back,

Jason Crothers 4:36
Well you should feel you should feel privileged. I've actually you know, I've been living in like gym shorts for weeks. I've actually got pants on today which is weird to put jeans on.

Alex Ferrari 4:43
I appreciate that. Well this is this is this is my formal wear. Currently here at the indie film hustle for people not why not watching this. I have a hustle t shirt and a hat. What's below.

Jason Crothers 4:58
I am wearing pants like this. Like backgrounds You Can I can I can attest to that

Alex Ferrari 5:02
I can neither confirm nor deny what's happening below the waist. Anyway, let's move on. So, Jason, um, thank you for being on the show. We've been trying to do this for a year now. Yeah, we met a while ago and, and through a good friend of ours, Austin ordell, who's my dp on my last film on the corner of ego desire, and we've been trying to get you on because you are fat, you have a fascinating story about how you became a dp. You have way a wide range of experiences from low budget to, you know, a really complicated network show that we will discuss the complexities of shooting that show and all that but before we get into it, man, how did you get into the film business?

Jason Crothers 5:48
Um, that's a really good question. Um, so I I got my start. I went to Scottsdale Community College, which is in Scottsdale, Arizona. Now, they have like a respectable program. They have like a couple of small sound stages and equipment and whatnot. When I went there, like the film room was literally a closet that the marching band department and given them were just efficient because all the equipment they had fit into a closet. Like we didn't even have movie lights until like, I think like my third semester, like we're shooting like 1k scoops that we'd stolen from the theater department and like soldered baby spuds on to so I got my start there, which is great. You know, like my first like, my first day of class. like two hours into the class they were showing me a super eight camera in our hands and like, All right, great, came up with three other students go outside and shoot something. That's kind of how I got my start. I think like a lot of people like, you know, I grew up loving movies being fascinated by movies. I've told this story before like my dad. I grew up in Alaska as a kid amongst a lot of other places that my dad was like a projectionist, part time projectionist at a theater in Alaska. So like, I remember watching Gremlins, like when it first came out, but I remember I saw Gremlins dozens of times without sound because the speaker in the projection Booth was busted. So I didn't actually see that. That was the first movie. I remember seeing and seeing it dozens of times as you know, as a little kid, and understand that like oh, this is all make believe because I'm sitting right next to the projector. So I was fascinated by movies side note didn't actually see remnant from sound until I was a junior in high school,

Alex Ferrari 7:25
and then it terrified you and then it terrified that

Jason Crothers 7:27
I was like, I was like, holy shit. These people have names and voices. I mean, there was a time I could tell you every edit of that movie by heart. I remember in high school being like this is like seeing it for the first time all over again. So I always loved movies and fascinated by them obviously didn't understand. I think like most people, you're starting off with the director of director and cinematographer. What so I was fortunate that when I started to film school, I had a teacher that recognized like, oh, you're really interested in camera and lighting. That's what you're interested in your strong suit is, and very politely was like, maybe you should consider cinematography. And then when I picked up it's I mean, it sounds kind of hokey, but like, I picked up a light meter and you know, shot my first like, real thing. And I was like, Oh, this just clicked and made sense. So after that, you have to Scottsdale I went to a move to Chicago, from Columbia College in Chicago, intern for Penn division intern on the film, Barbara, the first barbershop movie for MGM, kicked around for a while went to a phi. And I again, it's a little weird now because now there's so much information like this, you know, there's like so much information available. When I was starting out, like there's basically two online forums. And then otherwise, it was like going to the library and like stealing books in the library to learn about cinematography. And also, you know, I started an interesting time to when the industry was transitioning from film into you know, HD, which then became a full digital cinema. So I started learning on film, and by the time I got out of school, it was making a hard transition into digital so I was like attending school and learning how to enter this industry while it was in the middle of upheaval, and it's a lot of change. I yeah, I mean, I just kind of fell into like, this is something I really love to do, and I think ignorance and a lot of luck and I just kind of kept stumbling forward and finding people that can ask me to shoot things and you know, here I am, I started at 18 and I'm 41 now and people are still foolishly hiring me to shoot things so yeah, eventually someone will catch on.

Alex Ferrari 9:39
Yeah, you and I both are of similar vintages. So that's a very nice way of putting it over itself similar vintages so when you're saying that it's exactly when I grew, I mean, I'm a little bit older than you but not by much. And I was exact same thing. I started off with film, and I learned, you know, in film school, I learned online editing and Film Editing. And there was like this nonlinear computer running Windows 311 in the corner called the montage, which never worked. And then I got out into the workforce and they're like, avid is the thing, and you have to learn an avid and 24 P and all this, you know that it was just a weird thing, because a lot of stuff I learned in school was pretty much obsolete by the time I got into the workforce. So it was it all sounds very, very familiar.

Jason Crothers 10:29
But it's also weird, because like, we were learning, you know, because I was always I took a lot of editing classes today, I learned very early on, I was like, oh, a big part of cinematography is editing. Like, it doesn't matter how you light and shoot if you don't understand editing, as well. So actually, I took a lot of editing courses a lot, you know, in conjunction all the cinematography course I was taking. And for me, it was always fascinating, like, I'm learning, you know, on Monday, I'm learning and getting experienced cutting on flatbed. And on Tuesday, I'm learning how to get avid certified. So I'm like, this is such, it's such a weird time and like years of transition of like, here's how to shoot 35 millimeter. But also, here's something you know, here's the F 900. And you're like, what, what,what is it?

Alex Ferrari 11:09
No, it's funny because I learned, I learned nonlinear then online, like the CMS 3600 Grass Valley. And then I went to flatbed. And when I cut a flatbed, I look literally looked at the teacher. I'm like, this is barbaric. You mean you want me to cut with a razor blade, the Edit? And if I like it, I tape it. But if I really like it, I use glue. What is this? What are we the Flintstones like what is this? It was we should have gone the other way. In hindsight, they should have started you there and moved you up to more advanced technology. But it was it was it was

Jason Crothers 11:50
I I told us in the past, I would did a show a couple years ago and we're doing our camera loadout you know, got a camera truck. And some of the other ACS were laughing they're like, oh, ask Jason. So I had a very young member, my camera department was like, Hey, we just they won't tell me they think it's funny. what's the what's that closet for? I was like, Oh, the dark room. They're like, yeah, the dark room. I was like, No, that's what it's called the dark room. They're like, yeah, the room. It's it's all blackout. It's dark. There's no light. There's like, yeah, that's called a dark room and not explained to them. Like you're actually young enough that you've never worked with film and you don't understand what a darkroom is, as I'm explaining, like, Oh, you go in there and you'd load your film. You don't love your film. They're looking at me like I'm a crazy person. I wait, you can't see anything you've done. And no one can see what they're doing and they're doing a bike feel like this is how you used to make movie. They're looking at me like I'm insane. Yes, I'm describing like a like a godless world like some kind of Mad Max apocalyptic world of filmmaking. I'm like, like, look up until a couple years ago. That's how it was done.

Alex Ferrari 12:58
Oh, no, wait a minute. You had a dark room? That's like the lap of luxury. You didn't? Did you tell them about the bag? Because there was the there was the tent. There was like the changing tent. It was like if you if there's a changing tent, which is like the next level down from the dark room, and then if you're ghetto,it's the bag,

Jason Crothers 13:16
it's the bag. And then after that it's you lock yourself in the bathroom and taping garbage bags over the window and hoping you don't bump into the light.

Alex Ferrari 13:23
Oh, is it we usually you look back and we were like we were savages. I mean, it was it was really it was really barbaric. You know, different the process. I mean, and it's so funny cuz I mean, I shot my first commercial all my commercials were shot on 35 when I was coming up, and I did my demo reel and stuff, I shot 35 and did the transfer and I've still remember the smell the smell of film is this that if something about the smell of it just takes me back. But I remember shooting one of my first commercials. And it was I was shooting at 125 frames a second. And it was terrifying. Because you hear that film going like flying through the the mag and you're like if it's not money, you're like

Jason Crothers 14:14
Every time you turn it on, you're like that's not a fan of film rolling. That's the sound of like dollars just flying out of my pocket.

Alex Ferrari 14:20
And I was just like don't break don't break don't break don't break. Does that does that does that snap? Oh, so it was in there but you go back and we talking about it? It was it was savatree it was savatree sir it was it was absolutely sabarish always Yeah, and it was worth shooting. Doing that whole process was very more artisinal in the way it was like you felt the film and there was like you really needed to know what you were doing. You needed to know lighting you needed to know exposure need to know film stock there was a level of education that you needed to have where now you know a read or an Alexa you know you You should have down the middle somewhat, you can save it in post and like if you could, you know, and it's still not going to be great, but it's acceptable. And unfortunately, it's become more acceptable now. And now in the corona COVID-19 world. This is what we're doing right here. So is fantastically acceptable right now for network television. Obviously, it's this this was a HD camera, I'm fine. It's good enough. It's, it's, it's fine. It's, I'm sure, cinematographers they have no problem with it. And it was funny that you're saying you were an edit, you edit it too. There was always that joke is like what would happen if the DP edited a film and it would just be long crane shots, non cut, no cut long crane shots, long Dolly shots, I would just basically the whole movie would be seven shots, the whole thing.

Jason Crothers 15:47
That's why in school I learned really early on. I was like, oh, like so much a story so much as tog Rafi is it's not just shots and angles and lighting. It's how those shots are going to go together. Because the power you know, like one shot by itself is one thing. But it gave the shot you know, shot a games, a lot more power and story significance when it's juxtaposed to the shot being rejected, shot, see, instead of you're like, Oh, this one image is powerful. But these three images together create something altogether different. And I learned very quickly, I was like, oh, if you don't understand editing, not only are you kind of cutting off, you're removing some of the storytelling tools you have. But also if you don't understand editing, you're shooting this stuff, handing it to an editor, and then later on going well, this just doesn't work like well, it's not beginner's fault. You didn't give them coverage of the material that cut well together. Right? I in school, like I never want to be an editor. I've never edited professionally, but I took a lot of editing classes and spent a lot of time studying editing. So I was like, Oh, that's I mean, at the end of the day, like, you know, cinematography is one thing. The way it's presented to an audience is through editing. If you don't understand editing, I think you are, you're, you're, I think cinematography, and editing shoot very differently than those that do.

Alex Ferrari 17:06
Right? Because you're giving you know, I came up as an editor. So when I'm directing, I edit in my head on set, so I'll be like, no, we're gonna need this angle here. And I'm already thinking about editing. So same thing goes for cinematographer, if you're not getting the coverage that you need, that's going to cut well together because it might be a great looking shot. But if it doesn't come with the rest of the stuff that's useless.

Jason Crothers 17:27
Or even even even if sometimes you go like, Oh, no, we can do the scene, you know, in one shot. Because the scene before this, you know, this is how we shot it. It's like it's it's, it's both within the scene, but also the film overall, like, what's the tempo, what's the pace be and you start getting like network to studios, you're like, oh, also, you know, great this movie, you know, I know, they're gonna chop this movie down to 85 minutes, you're also shooting something going, alright, I get that, you know, I'm in love with the directors love with it. But I know it's never going to this is never going to make it to air like this is going to get chopped down. So we have to shoot things play just practically this can't play out that long. So there's also it depends very much to like, there's a world of difference in terms of I think feature in television in terms of, you're shooting for an edit. And I think features got a little more freedom or especially with television, especially network television, you're going yeah, there's a different style and tempo. And the tempo is not just the language of the show. There's also practical things driving it like you know, commercial breaks. As you're like, you've got to think about some of those things too. And those are those have, those often drive the Edit far more than story does sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 18:34
Now, you you've been you've been you've got a lot of features under your belt, and you have television, but a bunch of television episodes under your belt as well. When you go into Let's go, let's start off with the feature world. You are approaching a low budget project. I'm not sure you're doing much of that now. But when you do, do kind of low budget, how do you approach it? Because I find that, you know, sometimes, especially with cinematographers, who are used to a certain box of tools, a toolbox with certain things that they need to get to do their job, as opposed to a cinematographers like, Look, we've got a iPhone, a light and an A dream, let's make it happen. And still able to do it. So how do you approach low budget cinematography, as opposed to more network or bigger budget?

Jason Crothers 19:28
Oh, yeah. I mean, I, I'm, I'm a very big fan of the idea that everything we do is scalable. So what you do on a $5,000 short, is scalable, you know, it's the same. It's the job you do and how you do it. At the end of the edits, core doesn't really change. So whether you're doing a $5,000 short, you know, a $50,000 micro budget, a $500,000 movie or you know, you're doing you know, a $5 million movie It's the same job. It's just a matter of like, what the expectations are, what the resources are that you and the production as a whole half. before I sign on to anything, you know, I asked some practical questions about what's the budget? What's the schedule? do those things track with what the script is? And what's everybody's expectation? So that in theory, by the time I sign on, I'm like, great. I, you know, I signed on to something, go for a cigar and say, like, Oh, it's a, you know, this is a $50,000. Movie. Okay, great. I, I know, you know, the script is reasonable for the resources that we have, and what everybody's expectations are, is reasonable for those resources. And then you, you know, you ask for you fight for the resources that you need to do those things. But yeah, if you're doing, you know, if I'm doing, you know, a $5,000, short for as a favor for a friend, the tools and the resources that I'm going to ask for and expect are wildly different than the, you know, than the $5 million movie, I'm going to go do you know, the week for you the month following? I mean, not every, I can't speak for anybody else. But I don't have like, you know, oh, here's like my, you know, these are the tools that I need. And that I always need. Because every project is different. And every year, I think every project, not only should it be different, but every project just practically it, you do, what I need on a $5 million movie is not necessarily what I need for, you know, a $500,000 movie. And vice versa. So it changes and I think you need to be open to that to your look and go like great. Okay, I would love to shoot on you know, I'd love to shoot on an Alexa. We can't afford that. And I can't get a favor for what we can afford. So what can we afford? Okay, that's great. That's sufficient, you know, what's more important in the camera? or glass? Well, I'll get this camera. So you have these lenses instead? And, you know, great, we'd love to have an 18k Well, obviously, that's not going to happen, can I get an 1800 watt HDMI, oh, I can probably swing that. Like, everything becomes scalable.

Alex Ferrari 22:03
Got it. And so when you're working with because I've worked with directors and DPS, who, you know, are unique in their style. And they're unique in their approach to the filmmaking process. How do you work with a director, as far as the collaborative art because there are, there are DPS who want to imprint their way of doing things on a younger director, or more inexperienced director sometimes, as opposed to a more collaborative way of working. So how do you like to approach working with director? Because I know there's so many different kinds of directors, there's the Martin Scorsese that's gonna tell you, I want the lens here. I want a 25 here, I want a dolly in here. Can we get this light over there? And that lead over there? And then there's the other guy that goes, just make it look pretty?

Jason Crothers 22:55
Yeah. I mean, and it's, I think, you know, it's funny, I think it's, I'm 41 now, and I've been, you know, shooting features and making a living since I was like, 25, right, like, I got, I got lucky getting an early start. I think the first few years when I started. I definitely, you know, the the the arrogance of youth, I was definitely like, Oh, I think I know better. So I definitely, the first couple years I was shooting, I definitely was like, No, no, no, I think needs to be this way, we should approach it this way. Because I thought like, oh my ways the best way. And after a few years that I was like, that's dumb. That's not true. I don't know, you know, I'm moderately okay at my job. And the real joy of collaborating with people is learning from other people. And I had a real big revelation. And it was in 2007. I did this, this very small movie called leaving Barstow is this, like 35 millimeter drama that we did for, like $370,000. And the director, the front of my name, Peter page was our first time working together. And Peter had a lot of experience as an actor. And so he'd worked with a lot of directors. And he was very collaborative, but very specific, and demanding in a good way, not like in an unreasonable way. But like he had high expectations and expected everyone around him to rise to those challenges. And that was kind of a revelation for me, because I was like, Oh, this is the director that that knows, at the very least as much as I do, but really probably knows a lot more than I do. And I learned a lot from him. And if anything, the biggest thing I learned was shutting my mouth and listening. Suddenly, I was like, Oh, no, am I learning a lot, but it's putting me in a better position, understanding what he wants, and puts me in a better position to going alright, if that's what's important to you, and that's what you want. then based on that, these are my ideas of how to get there. And that was a real kind of a rebirth and I think Ever since then, I have a big problem. When I come on board and a directors like, how do you like to work, I usually kind of throw it back at them and go, I'm happy. And I'm happy to work any way that my director wants to. If my director wants to come in and shortlist, the whole movie, once a storyboard the whole movie and go through with, you know, Artemis and figure out every shot every focal length, great, let's go do it that way, if that's the way they like to work, if I get a director who's like, you know what, let's just show up on the day, and we'll do a blocking with the actors, and we'll figure it out. Great, I'm happy to roll with that to every director is different. And part of the fun part of my job is every projects like oh, I get to flex a different muscle and work a different way. Because at the end of the day, my job fundamentally is, is to support my director. So if what they need to be comfortable is, you know, somebody, they can go, Hey, I want to be really specific about camera placement focal length, great, let's do that. And I'll focus my energies on lighting, if they go back, great. All I'll take care of, you know, the blocking and the coverage and everything else. Like every director is different. And it's, it's, I think, my job Our job is cinematographers to support that, whatever it is they however they they like to work. And with that, obviously kind of its own challenges. But you know, I think that's that's how to answer that question.

Alex Ferrari 26:16
Now, you got on the show Chicago Fire? And have you shot like at least two or three episodes of that? Two, three episodes. How about I mean, what did you do at? Like you were on that show, you shot a lot of episodes,

Jason Crothers 26:34
Somewhere around there, cuz I started on the show as their second unit dp in season two, and ended up shooting, I think two episodes that season. And then season three did second unit, and they ended up shooting, like another six or seven episodes. And they took over the show season four and then did it season four, or five and six. So I probably did between 70 or 80 episodes as the main dp and then probably another 30 or 40 episodes doing second unit for it.

Alex Ferrari 27:05
So I mean, that's a fairly large network show is a large network show that is a fairly large network show and also a fairly complicated show to shoot. It is not your normal police drama, which has its own, you know, car chases and fight sequences and things but you, you you the amount of practical effects on that show mixed in with I'm assuming visual effects, and I will ask about how

Jason Crothers 27:32
That's actually incorrect. Oh, a night, about 98% of what was on that show was real.

Alex Ferrari 27:37
So then it goes back to my first statement, but the amount of practical effects to shoot with. I mean, I remember watching, you know, I've never personally shot. I don't think I've ever directed fire. I don't think I've ever shot with fire before. Because that's the thing you don't do. It's not a thing fire bad. Fire bad. You know? So insurance don't like. So the I think the most experience I had was watching backdraft and then the behind the scenes of backdraft. And I think the Universal Studios, Florida backdraft. ride with a Wasn't that amazing how they showed you how they did and stuff? So that was my limited experience of, of doing that. How, how the hell did you shoot on a television schedule? Which I'm assuming is what how much per episode? Eight days per episode. So you're shooting eight days an hour of action content, basically, explosions fire everywhere, all the time, because I was you know, it was what I've seen some episodes of it, and I saw a bunch of your work. And I'm just going this hurts like this hurts. This hurts me watching this I can't imagine. And for the actors. I mean, the actors aren't, you know, in danger. I mean, they're not but they are like there's they've got gear on there's there's real it's real fire maybe be controlled, but it's still real. Yeah. How the hell did you do? How do you do something like that man?

Jason Crothers 29:11
Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, the real answer is the success of that show is 100%. On on the crew. Yeah, like the whole practice app, like you got from the top down producers that are really supportive. When you go like, hey, these are the tools that we need. This is the time we need these are the resources we need. They they get it and you get the tools and the resources that you need. To just every department It was one of the it was one of the shows that I think the success of that show is is just by kind of dumb luck, like a perfect mixture of the right people all came together at the right time. So you've got there's no weak links on that entire production, like every department is is firing on all cylinders at all times. And so that's the only way that kind of stuff can happen because also keep in mind that the show specific to like my role to dp when I was on even now, they didn't we didn't have rotating DPS. So as you know, 22 or 23 episodes every season, it wasn't like, Oh, you know, you're doing Audrey Eve and you're doing every episode so my prep was also basically a day was like a tech scout day and

Alex Ferrari 30:24
Sure Why not?

Jason Crothers 30:25
Why not? Or, like, you know, you're in between setups on one set, you know, the director for the neck come down, it's like, oh, in between setups, like, Hey, here's the blueprint for the burn stage. And here's what we're gonna put these like 30 flame bars, can we get your eyes on this here like spotting it really quick in between other setups, like, okay, hold that thought I have to roll in this scene cut. Okay, let's move on, run back, give some notes like, the prep is very much squeezed in between other things. To do the show, really, what it comes down to is it's just a lot of trust. And everybody else like it's the production designer, was a gentleman named Craig Jackson, who was fucking brilliant. Probably shouldn't curse. Too late. Too late. And was brilliant. Yeah, and also was great at not only designing sets that just looked amazing, but we're also very shoot, like very shootable and very friendly to lighting and camera placement in fire. And he thought about, he put a lot of thought into like, what, what looked good on camera. You know, so if you come by and show me his plans for setting his building, I was like, Okay, I have no notes, like very brief notes. The effects department run by john pneumonic. Him and His whole department, same thing, like they were just great about how do we how do we create a sense of danger? But do it obviously in a safe way? How do we give people options? Very rarely do I ever hear anybody go? No, usually like we can it'll take X amount of time and you're like, Alright, how important is it but it's really just trusting everybody to be on point and showing up and going great, everybody everybody is doing your job incredibly well. So when you show up you're like great all the elements are there. You just have to not screw it up at that point. But all that stuff is any Yeah, like 98% of what you see on that show was real like the only visual effects really was you know obviously like wire removal for sure, sure. But in terms of like all the fire and explosions The only time there's ever any visual effects are either if there's a safety concern more to the point like if one of our actors is running down a hallway on that show, they're wearing like real firefighter gear like they're completely insulated are completely protected but if they're getting like a victim out like you know victims usually like you know always in my bedroom, my apartment on fire so they're wearing you know, like t shirt and pajama pants, so they don't have the same kind of protection, but they're still running down the hallway that's engulfed in fire. So the crew has got firefighter gear on and the dollar grips and everyone else is suited up except for that one day player actor he's just wearing

Alex Ferrari 33:07
The one the red shirt the red shirt as we say the red the red shirt,

Jason Crothers 33:10
That's always a stunt person but they'll you know they'll put them up with burn gel but there's also like a limit so sometimes they all right great well they're running down the hall the victim maybe instead of the fire being you know at an 11 year old dial it down like a six just on one side of the hallway that you know that day players near and then they'll just do a little embellishment to make it match the bigger size before or if like there's a lot of wind because obvious shooting Chicago especially during the winter like a lot of the bad wind would make fire and explosion go off but the wind would physically push the fire down like visual effects might embellish it a little bit. But

Alex Ferrari 33:44
but there was a practice that was a practical basis

Jason Crothers 33:46
oh nine like said it's literally any firework is is minor embellishment 98% of what you saw on that show was done in camera for real.

Alex Ferrari 33:55
So the funny thing is that Chicago Fire set is arguably the safest set to be in in Hollywood right now because it kills Coronavirus quite quickly.

Jason Crothers 34:06
I hadn't thought about that. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 34:07
I mean the heat alone, I'm assuming the heat coming off with that show

Jason Crothers 34:11
And everywhere. Everybody we're wearing like a relic freighters and full bodysuit actually, you know maybe Chicago Fire will come back it'll just be nothing but 42 straight minutes of fires.

Alex Ferrari 34:20
I mean it's just everybody's wearing other gear all the time even when there's a love scene gears on surrounded by fire surrounded by fire at all times to make sure the virus is going you can't get dick Wolf and pitch this to him please I'm sure effects depart will hunt you down. Exactly. Kisses I've never shot fire. Really I'm curious about it. You're talking about fire bars. I'm familiar with what these things are. But you're literally just dialing fire up and down on a board essentially. And you have completely control of the fire and very different places where it is. So it looks like it's out have control, but it really isn't. And then the set itself is treated with multi anti flammable, you know, agents that even if the fire does move or something like that it doesn't catch fire right away or something along those lines.

Jason Crothers 35:12
Yeah, so the effects department, you know, a flame bar for me doesn't know is literally, you know, a two or three or four foot bar bass holes in it hooked up to propane. And they're just pumping propane into it, and you ignite it. And then so depending on the amount of propane you're releasing, you can control the size and the intensity of that fire. And then you just hide them around the set, often the sets were built, so you can put them in, you know, like into the floorboards like the floorboards are actually built. So, you know, when you look at it, it looks like it's just a normal floorboard, if you stand directly next to the wall, you realize there's like a, like a two inch gap. So you can put a flame bar in there. So it looks like the walls on fire. reality, it's just a flame bar hidden by part of the set dressing to the set were designed for these flame bars to be hidden in built into the set. And yeah, it's it's every I mean, shooting fun, it's funny shooting that show. You know, under normal circumstances, we might do 50 6070 plus setups a day, you get into fire scenes, and you get into like 10, maybe 12 setups, because suddenly everything takes 45 minutes or an hour or more depending on should you get into like a room, you're like, great, here's this room. Okay, great. So there's, for a sake of argument, say there's nine flame bars, you know, it's like a relatively small fire. So first, it clears the set effects departments already rigged up, and they're going to recheck the safety because they rigged it the night before, but they're going to recheck every single pipe every single flame bar, make sure there's no leaks, make sure it's all working, then the bring back on the set and you start doing you start setting levels for each individual flame bar. And then when you set individual levels, then you start turning them on in groups because obviously you know fire is competing for fuel, which is not just the propane, but also oxygen. So what worked individually some you start printing groups of two or three or four might change how the fires reacting, and then you see the whole room going and from there, you start determining, oh, well that fire is taking oxygen from that one. So we have to make adjustments or you start having safety concerns of this side of the room getting too hot that fire is getting too big. And everybody's you know in there, you know myself effects stunts, there's fighting a real firemen in there, the actors get involved and everyone's talking about what's happening, how it's happening, what's going to go on. What's funny is you have a shot at like one person running down the hallway. In reality, what's chasing that person is the operator. A Dolly grip spotting them affects people on set to keep an eye on fire. Real firefighters literally standing by with hoses. You got somebody you know on the controls of the propane. So if anything goes wrong at any point, anybody has a concern kill switch. Yeah, they turn everything off instantaneously. It's it's interesting for all of the like the chaos and the danger. There were so many safety nets in place, that during the five years I was on the show, nobody there's not there wasn't a single injury related anything because safety was obviously of paramount importance and there's so many safety nets in place. I remember talking to somebody once we had a day player operator whose concern I was like, totally valid and I kind of walking through it. I was like, look for something to go wrong. You'd literally have to have like seven people fail at their job. tediously in the most colossal way for anything to go wrong.

Alex Ferrari 38:37
It's it's fascinating that a show like that where the danger is that like the ultimate, I mean, it's literally really high and every shot, that mistakes could happen. And nothing happens but then yet alone on some, you know some other show or independent film or even studio film, a stunt goes wrong and someone and their moves a major accident or something like that. It's fascinating.

Jason Crothers 39:00
I think on that is different with flight to like i think you know, everyday we worked in the birthdays, you know, the ad is always had the same speech, which was usually started with I know we've done this a 1000s of times, we're going to do this again. And nobody gets complacent because the minute you get complacent and assume is when something goes wrong. So I think a big part of the safety of that show and again, the reason we're able to do those things is because nobody ever got complacent. Nobody ever cut corners. Anybody was like, Oh, it's not a big deal. It's like no, there's a there's a routine for a reason. Like we'd go through these steps every single time. Because we're not we're not doing them because we were doing them to make sure that the thing that you assume is not you know, maybe it's been that way for the 999 times we did it before and here we are in time 1000 and now there's a new variable that you just missed like we make we they made a point of going through step by step by step so that people don't get complacent cuz I think people get hurt on stunts. When you know, it's accidents, you know, it's like it's a future human. It's usually some kind of human error.

Alex Ferrari 40:06
Now this there is so much fire on set. I'm assuming there's a ventilation system that pulls all that smoke out, because I'm just a lighting standpoint. This does give off smoke. Am I wrong?

Jason Crothers 40:19
Although not, not as much smoke as you might think. I mean, actually, all this food, all the smoke on the show was was us adding artificial atmosphere. But yeah, the sets are the individual sets were vented. So after you set everything up, the groups would come in and literally, the ceiling pieces were built in such a way you could adjust ceiling pieces to vent heat, because obviously heat rises. So if you've got you know, a hallway, it's one temperature but when you've got that much fire going literally within seconds, the temperature is going to jump, you know, 100 some odd degrees within seconds, so they invent the ceiling to let heat out. And then stage is built with special ventilation as well to start trying to pull up you know, actual smoke and whatnot. Yeah, the whole set the burn save is literally the only thing to be shot. There were things that were on fire, I mean, basically a specially modified soundstage to handle all the interior burns up.

Alex Ferrari 41:13
So I have to ask, did you lose any Did you lose any lenses? Did you learn? Did you lose a camera ever?

Jason Crothers 41:19
Oh, I could eat a real testament to a real testament aeroflex we never had a single camera problem in five years. You show me the classic Alexa, like the original one.

Alex Ferrari 41:33
But it's I mean, there is still heat there. Like you're dealing It's hot. It's

Jason Crothers 41:37
A shitload of, heat there I mean, there's you but also getting a shitload of heat. But then you know, the next day you're going to go outside, you know, in Chicago in the winter with like, 25 below zero. You have both extremes, you know, where sometimes you start outside and come back in diverse states you're like, layered up for like 25 below zero and you come to the Bernie stage and like you're peeling down to like jeans and a T shirt because you're just, you know, it's like 150 degrees. We never had the closest we ever came was we did a locked off shot with the camera on a ladder like a 12 foot ladder for this high angle shot. And even I was looking at my key grip. I was like, oh man, there's a lot of fire in here that he's It's hot. Just putting the camera up there. This might be a bad idea, but we did it anyways. And the closer that happened is a little warning popped up in the camera. He was like, Oh, the camera body got really hot. We were like, oh, did we just screw up the camera. We let it cool down eventually took it down off the ladder. 30 minutes later cool down data was totally in the car was totally fine. So

Alex Ferrari 42:36
but lenses, no lenses,

Jason Crothers 42:37
no lens issues. Now we never actually like sorry, we lost I think it was in season three. We did a sequence where we flipped a firetruck. And I think we lost we lost a five we you know we put we put something like 14 or 15 cameras on it cuz you're only going to flip a firetruck once you know so we had a bunch of like five DS as crash cameras and I think lost like two lenses on five DS

Alex Ferrari 43:04
But that wasn't a crash that wasn't on a burn.

Jason Crothers 43:07
Correct? Yeah, but in a burn now we ever lost no damage any equipment, no damage any cameras or lenses?

Alex Ferrari 43:12
Now I want to ask you, I want to ask you this question because I have a lot of experience with this and I would love to hear your technique on shooting haze, or smoke in his scene is brutal how Tony Scott did it for every single movie he ever made, and made it look flawless. I have no idea or Ridley bolt and Scott brothers. They were master at the haze but Tony like you watch True Romance and like that scene between walk in and hopper and there's just this gorgeous haze with shafts of light coming in. I'm like this makes no sense. But it looks awesome. It looks amazing. So I've shot haze, multiple projects, I mean just a ton of them and so and I remember the difference between smoke and haze there's a huge difference between smoke and haze. But what is your technique if I said okay, Jason, we're gonna shoot this scene. I want a nice haze here. I want that I want the Tony Scott vibe I want Blade Runner how do you set it up prep it and shoot?

Jason Crothers 44:16
So to answer that I'd say cuz I don't think Chicago Fire is a good example because then they're like you're doing it is supposed to be simulate

Alex Ferrari 44:23
Sure Sure Sure.

Jason Crothers 44:24
Because in reality doesn't match up with interest because the reality is in a building on fire like that. The smoke is what I said that you can't see more than a couple inches in front of you. Right? We spent some time it like the the actual firefighter Academy like the the drill that they run people on and they're literally just shipping containers they'd like I said together to make like a maze. And you get in there you're like oh wait once you put the smoke and you literally you're you can see like two inches in front of you. So our fire advisors like he's like look it's not real cuz it was really be making a radio show. So you're trying to get like heavy levels of smoke to get the impression of what an interior burn would look like. But in that case, it's never about maintaining the levels it because you're you're not trying to you're not trying to do haze in terms of trying to light it like you're shooting that kind of smoke. Because now it becomes part of its ambience

Alex Ferrari 45:17
Its ambience versus practical.

Jason Crothers 45:19
Yeah. So what you're talking about it and it's funny, because like, you know, I left Chicago Fire 2018. And last year 2019 I get three movies basically back to back. And two of them were with Michael polish.

Alex Ferrari 45:34
Oh, he, you work with Michael. Yeah, he's my friend. Good friend of the show.

Jason Crothers 45:39
Yeah, I've done three movies with Michael. Oh, my good friend and one of my favorite collaborators. So I did two movies with Michael last year. And Michael loves his atmosphere. Yeah, like Michael loves atmosphere. So like a good example. The reason I bring this up is is like a better example is like Kenai did this world war two drama with with Al Pacino. I think it was last I think we should did that January through March 2019. And that had like a very kind of big classic approach. It was you know, a lot of big wide shots, and lots of hard shafts of light. And we basically add atmosphere in every single damn set for every single setup. In general, maintaining atmosphere is I use a technique of using a spot meter. So once I find a level that like, you know, I'll make I've got a technique I use where base I stand on the same spot on set, I take a reading of the same spot on the wall. And that time may end up checking that in between every setup, and that helps me maintain a certain level of consistency. Okay. Okay, yeah. The the real I think the real way to maintain that kind of level of haze and really work with it. is you need to have really candid conversations with the director like I always with the director in the ad and go, look, we can do this. I'm happy to do it. atmosphere looks great. Big Shots of light. It's all wonderful. But it is going to slow us down. slow us down because you have to maintain it seemed like shot to shot yes to take. But it's not just maintaining, its maintaining, but also, you know, it's not enough. Just like Okay, oh, it's a little thin. Let's wait, let's you know, blast them. We're in there. Like Okay, hold on everybody's wait a few minutes cuz now we have to let it settle because there's nothing worse than shooting and then like, seeing the smoke swirl.

Alex Ferrari 47:37
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Crothers 47:39
So more than anything, like there's a lot of like tricks and techniques to maintain consistency. But the real thing for me always is whenever that comes up, I'm like, great. Everybody needs to understand that we're going to work at like half the speed for the scene to maintain this consistency. Like the first movie, Michael I did. That was a big thing. And it was Yeah, we'd be set up and go great. We're going to add atmosphere. Okay, and everyone just sitting around like sitting on the dolly waiting for it to settle and going. And no, not yet. Not yet. Yeah, not that night. Okay, now roll. Okay, cut. Okay, let's add more atmosphere.

Alex Ferrari 48:15
Oh, it's brutal. It's brutal, is absurd.

Jason Crothers 48:19
I mean, unfortunate. The secret to it is time. Like if you want to do it? Well, you just you have everyone has to be understanding that you're going to have to be retouching and basically every single take, and you can't just pump it in, you have to pump it in and then let it settle and be right. And you know, when you start rushing it is when it starts looking like crap.

Alex Ferrari 48:37
The funny thing is, is that there's two on a post Sandpoint with Hayes is Hey, shots, because I've I've colored many films that had haze as well as my own projects. And there's two things one in consistencies within the cuts. At a certain point, I just let it go. Like you know what, yeah. Done. It's fine. You can't you can't find it. You can't find it. Yeah. And too, you can't really dig into the neg, the negative when you're in color. It's it's that haze that screws up the color. So like, I can't dig in the contrast. I can't wait.

Jason Crothers 49:12
It's interesting.

Alex Ferrari 49:13
Weird.

Jason Crothers 49:14
It depends on it depends on the look of the movie. It depends on

Alex Ferrari 49:19
the exposure.

Jason Crothers 49:21
Yeah. And I mean, so it's like, like the first movie with Michael like, we had like, every day it looked like the set was on fire. And we had so much Dan Hayes. But we also when we've done we've done test before him, we knew that the final grade was going to have a very heavy, a very heavy gray that added a lot of contrast. So we learned, you know, during testing, I was like, Oh, we have to pump in a shit ton of haze. Because what we're going to do in post is going to make most of the haze disappear, get all that contrast back and so on set. You know when you look at the set, you're like, This is absurd. You can't Yeah, it looks like the whole house is on fire. But once you got the grade and add all that contrast, did you go like, Oh no, this looks natural with that kind of nice, you know, the shaft light coming in. The one we did last January was interesting cuz that was also, for schedule reasons we had multiple cameras. So that became an interesting challenge of look, you know, like, if you want the wide shot with the big shots, like we can't do, you know, became or can't do this shot over here, you know, or we can run both cameras at the same time, but then we're just gonna have a very light hazy look to contest with, you know, cut to cut like, Oh, this shot doesn't quite match there.

Alex Ferrari 50:34
Yeah, it all depends, like what you're talking about makes absolutely perfect sense because you've actually given thought to the haze. And you've given thought to the entire workflow that the projects that I was working on and post a lot of times did not have that foresight. So they just there's different levels of haze I'm trying to match haze and Match Color and like if one super heavy and one super light, it was very difficult. And also the just the exposure, the camera Nana if I'm am I shooting at this a 1080 p machine to get a 4k is that a red is an Alexa, there's a lot of variables involved.

Jason Crothers 51:11
And a lot of that just comes from experience of Yeah, you can look at something Oh, oh, that totally. You know, you can look at my eye and go oh, that totally looks like the same level from the shot. I just did. Yeah, you get tired, but your eyes get tricked. And it's not until I think as a dp. When you see it all cut together. You're like, Oh, shit, this doesn't work at all. And I you know, I'm a big fan of like you, you learn your best lessons from your failures. Like, nobody really learns much from your successes. But you get spanked hard and you're like, well, that's a lesson I'm never gonna forget.

Alex Ferrari 51:39
So let's talk a little bit about COVID. And, ya know, cuz God knows, we don't there's not enough information about that. There's not enough discussion, if there's not enough discussion about COVID-19. The the world of production has come to a pretty much of a halt in the US. There are other countries that are starting to ramp back up a little bit. In Australia, I heard that you like you were saying earlier and off air that there is a production I didn't stop. And that whole process, how do you see production moving forward? In the next coming year? And what's your feeling? I know, you're no one knows. And there's no way that anyone could figure out what the hell's gonna happen. But in your opinion, how do you think we move forward?

Jason Crothers 52:28
I mean, look, I think first and foremost, there needs to be a better understanding. I again, I say this is like, I'm just a dp, you know, like, I'm not a doctor, I, I am, I am woefully unqualified to render an opinion. But I think first we need to get better understanding of, of, of the virus. So we actually we all can agree on what we're actually talking about. And I think there's so many other factors between, you know, insurance companies between it and sad and DGA. And there's so many factors that have to come together to all agree. I mean, look, if we're back at working by if I'm back on set, by the end of this year, I'm going to consider that a big victory. And I really hope both for my sake, because you know, I'm kind of bored, we don't want I love my I'm loving all this time off and hobbies and spend time My wife is wonderful, but you know, I'm a junkie for the work and I love being on set and I'm not on set. So I'm missing that. And then just the practicalities of you know, we all have to make a living. So yeah, I I hope I'm wrong. I hope I mindset, you know, August or September this year. That'd be wonderful. I will not be entirely shocked if I'm you know, I'm not back on set until next year. But I also think, I think right now anybody that says you know, oh well this is going to this is probably what's going to happen is wishful thinking because there's still so many variables that i think it's it's I think it's impossible to really make an accurate assessment because there's still too many variables.

Alex Ferrari 54:07
If history serves us correctly, when sag the DGA I IATSE all get together, they work very well together with unions and producers and should be coming we should be coming together very soon with this.

Jason Crothers 54:24
Issues like there's there's too many moving parts, people there's some there's so many moving parts and so many different people that all have to come together and agree on something.

Alex Ferrari 54:36
As you said it out loud. I'm saying 2022 I'm just thinking 2022 as you just said that out loud. It's just like In what world does the Teamsters DGA sag every other union that needs to be involved insurance companies studios Producers all come together.

Jason Crothers 55:02
You also get into like, I think moral issues too, like oh, yeah, like Yeah. Are you putting someone in risk or like a producer, a director going? Do I feel comfortable asking people to do to come back to this production? And can I create a safe environment for them? And for crew members going? Great, you know, everybody said, it's okay to do this. Do I feel safe and comfortable doing this and then weighing out like, you know, is my discomfort with it? versus like, I need to pay my rent. So I'll take that risk, like there are there 100 variables that I'll need to come together and we still don't fully understand the virus. So I think me look I'm glad that there's a lot of people talking about how do we get us back you know, how do we get production backup running? I'm glad that that everybody's talking about it, it's on everybody's mind and he's working towards it. I also, you know, hear and read all so many different different pitches and ways of approaching it. I think right now it's there's still just so many variables, I think, in my opinion, I think it's it's right now it's still too premature to really be able to say with any kind of certainty what may happen

Alex Ferrari 56:14
Well, the good news is that Hollywood is not a fearful industry and loves change and loves to adapt to change very fast very not risk averse and very fast moving with adopting change so I think we're in good shape

Jason Crothers 56:33
With that said, I think production is by their very nature are me look we work in an industry that's that's by its very nature is nomadic, like we you know, we're carnies. We're

Alex Ferrari 56:46
we're carnies. We're carnies. carnies,

Jason Crothers 56:48
we're high tech carnies.

Alex Ferrari 56:49
Absolutely

Jason Crothers 56:50
To a certain extent. I would also I can make the counter argument that we're an industry that's incredibly well equipped to try to figure out like, oh, adapt to this. Absolutely. So despite all the many hurdles, I also look and go, okay, but this is an industry that our specialty is like, Oh, these are curveballs. Okay, well, we're all paid. We're basically paid to deal with curveballs on a monthly basis. Like, that's what we're all paid to really do. So I'm wondering, I can make the argument. On the other hand, go Yeah, I'm a little I'm optimistic, because this is what our industry really, really thrives that is going, oh, here's a new problem that's never popped up before.

Alex Ferrari 57:31
How do we all collectively get together to solve it? And this is something that it's the whole industry trying to solve it? It's not like it's not, it's not like distribution, or like, oh, what are we gonna do with this streaming platformer? How are we dealing with film versus digital, or, like, it's not a pocket of the industry. It's the entire industry focused on one problem, which I really haven't seen in the history of our industry. It's never happened before where every aspect of the industry is trying to figure out the answer to one problem. Kind of like the world is trying to figure out the cure.

Jason Crothers 58:04
For this, it's interesting, it also impacts you know, it's everybody that works, you know, in the office of the production, the physical crew and everything post production and, you know, large budget studio films and independent film like every every one of our industry, YouTube, YouTubers, YouTubers, like content creators, so you suddenly have the literally the entire entertainment industry going, oh, we're literally all in the same ship together.

Alex Ferrari 58:31
Yeah, and that's never happened before. So it's unprecedented times without without question. Now, I want to ask you one question, that I'd love to hear your answer to this. What are the top five films to study for cinematography?

Jason Crothers 58:49
Oh my head Shogun you're like which? Which you which?

Alex Ferrari 58:56
You just five that come to mind today won't be on your gravestone.

Jason Crothers 58:59
Oh, oh, I wish I had a lot of time to think about that one. Um That's such a hard it's it's I don't know. Three, three. I can tell you I mean, like look, I the movie that got me into cinematography was was seven Um, so Oh, God, like I I remember seeing that movie. And literally, like staring at the screen and going I don't know what the hell's happening. But I was I was smart enough to recognize I was like, the way this movie looks like this is before I even really understood what the majority was like, the way this movie looks. It has a certain kind of texture that is every bit as important as the storytelling as the acting as the editing as the story like, the way this movie looks. is part of that movie. If you took that in the hands of a difference photographer a different approach visually, I think that movie would be completely different. That's a movie that I still go back to to this day. Sometimes I need inspiration. I'll just go back to that and go like, okay, yeah, no, that's inspiring.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:11
So can we can we geek out for a second? Because I studied serving heavily. I had one of my good friends who worked on seven. So I heard a bunch of the behind the scenes stuff that Fincher did have a lot to do with that look, with with the DP like they weren't, they weren't. Fincher is one of those directors who's just, he's on it. He's one of the most technical.

Jason Crothers 1:00:30
And it's also like, it's darious canggih. Who, by the way, if for anybody who's listening, like there's highenergy like Yo, like his hit, you had a heyday like the 90s. Yeah. But also recently, has been doing some mind blowing stuff like the lost city of z. Oh, yeah, Grant, like, both those movies are stunningly sharp. Like I watched both of them, I was like, I should just retire now. Come on.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:54
But I remember seven, because I had the laser disc, I had the Criterion Collection laser disc of it. And they actually, it was the first DVD The first laser disc that actually had the settings how to set your TV settings. The the contrast to set it so you can actually get the full experience of it. And Fincher he was doing something very unique with the negative, which was he was going below the toe, the below the toe of the black. So he was pushing it far beyond where it normally is. And I think he they added. Now they didn't add more silver to it. But I think they did.

Jason Crothers 1:01:30
They were Yeah, they were doing a silver retention process to it.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:33
They were so but the but but then the fun part about it is if you saw it in theater, there was a handful of full prints with the silver in it.

Jason Crothers 1:01:46
Yeah, there were the there were like yeah, like 50 show prints. Right. Have you had the process then to to those prints? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:53
Yeah, it was it was just too expensive to do for all the prints, but Oh, yeah. No, he just got it to that one. So funny. Side note, I was in college, and seven comes out. And I go see it. And I'm My mind is I'm like, What did I just see? And I walk out and I for whatever reason I looked into the garbage can that was right, by the, the, the the I exit, and I see film in it. And I'm like, What is that film? And my buddy's like, do you want to take it like it's in the garbage? Why couldn't we take it? So I start pulling because we're like, Are you kidding me? For 35 millimeter. I'm like, What is 35? Like? I'm like it's like the holy grail I found right. I'm pulling it out. It's the trailer for seven. Well, it's the trailer for seven so I yank the whole thing out. I pull out the garbage is an empty get bag inside of it. I pulled that and this is back in the 90s guys it's a different time. It's a pull that out I've put it in and took it home with me. I still have it. It's in my closet right now. I still have it. It's wrapped up.

Jason Crothers 1:02:57
I'm really taking this story is like the first time I saw seven I was rooting through the trash.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:04
So I actually took I threw it in the tub to clean it from the coke and the gum that was on its side cleansed it and I put it up to the light man and it's the frickin trailer a 35 millimeter print trailer amazing seven. And it's it's it's one of my favorite. That is by club are two of my favorite films of all time. Okay, yeah, but the only the other two or three films I would throw on that list Blade Runner. Of course that's a gimme. Yeah. Blade Runner is just one of those when I first saw blade runner was just like, What is going on? lesser known one searching for Bobby Fischer. Oh, that's fantastic searching for for the subtlety of how he did it. And then I did research on it how he was bouncing light off of mirrors.

Jason Crothers 1:03:57
Yeah. Or he would do things like your little light and put it on the pin like full spot and like you just aim it at somebody's waist off camera and like let the residual light come up. And that's what he was exposing from.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:07
I mean, it's just it was he was on a completely different.

Jason Crothers 1:04:12
I would also say this is the movie that very few people have ever heard of birth.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:17
Which one I'm sorry, say that again?

Jason Crothers 1:04:19
Birth. Birth have you seen birth?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:22
No, I haven't seen birth please.

Jason Crothers 1:04:23
Oh, you're in for a treat. So it was shot by Harrison. aetas. Okay, I passed away a few years. I don't actually don't want to do anything about it. But it's, it's, uh Yeah, I don't want to say anything. Visually, it's interesting because you see it now and obviously, you know, like, one complaint I have is is you know, when they do streaming or go to blu ray a lot of times they'll they'll do some cleanup for the noise. But I saw a print. And that movie is Harrison. He was down for massive underexposure Like you get movies like the game where it's like you have the right. Look. Yeah. But his most of his work was, you know, like elephant or like last days or he did a lot of really beautiful work that was very underexposed. That movie was so dark, so dark, but he just kind of masterfully rode that like that razor thin edge of just a couple of foot candles the wrong way and there's nothing there and had just enough that it was so grainy and so murky, but intentionally done. It's traditionally you'd say it's not a well photographed movie. It's not a pretty movie. But I would argue it's some of the most beautiful like lighting and underexposure I've ever seen. Like, I still watch that movie. I'm like, I still like my brain hurts trying to wrap my head around. I'm like, I understand what he's doing. Well, I mean, I just don't understand how I could ever possibly do it myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:58
Well um, if you want to if you want to start going into underexpose you need to talk about the prince of darkness. I mean, Gordon Willis. So yeah, I mean, if you look at you look at Godfather Part Two, and you just like, I still remember what's his name? Oh, God, the producer, the famous producer who fought with Coppola, aka, the kid stays in the picture. And they were both doing brain farts. Yeah, but you know, I'm talking about I see his face right in my head. He saw the dailies so like, what is this if I can't see anything and that was film and you know like it's all about how it's developed how the the timing is in the in the in the lab he was on even talk about Razor's Edge cheese's it's it's it's stunning man.

Jason Crothers 1:06:42
But I think also you take you know I think all if you go back to my other classes you get things like you like the conformance Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's Yeah, people are like Apocalypse Now. Like it's funny. There are movies that nowadays are thing like the Godfather. Do you think good fight, you know, godfather Apocalypse Now Blade Runner, there's those aesthetics, it becomes such a part of modern movie, it doesn't even look impressive. But when you go back and look and go, Oh, wait until this movie. Nobody was really doing that until came up on that hadn't happened. I mean, I would argue seem like like Citizen Kane. I know. It's like a cliche, but Citizen Kane is an OK, story. That's just me.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:23
No, no, I agree with you. 100% I can't I can't But personally, I can't watch it.

Jason Crothers 1:07:27
Watch it. Like that movie. Is that movies entirely done in the visuals? Oh, yeah. And you watch the movie now and go. Oh, and also, by the way, if you watch a movie like that, and go, you know, they're doing that with like, you know, as a like, 25 like you're watching that going? that's those are cinematographers. Those are people that have a complete mastery of craft. Yours nowadays are going like, Oh, my camera can only go up to 800 ISO, how am I possibly going to light this? Like, Oh, God,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:55
There was, there is one director and then we'll stop geeking out because I'm just geeking out with you. Now at this point. There is one director that's considered probably one of the greatest non cinematographers even though he wasn't officially the cinematographers of his films. Let's see if you can guess what it is. He's a legendary director, who was not officially the cinematographer, but has given obscene amounts of credit for the lighting and the look of their films. They could apply to a lot of directors. No, but this one's like he did things that no one had ever done. He had lenses designed for himself. Oh, Kubrick. Exactly. I gave it to you that one. Yeah, I mean, you look at Barry London. I just Barry Lyndon and you just just like what was the ASE? Like how,

Jason Crothers 1:08:44
But you know, it's the same thing with like, you know, it's the same thing if you take somebody like like Ridley Scott, I think it's awful to you like there's a reason Ridley Scott has worked with a shitload of different DPS. He's movies all have a certain kind of similar sensibility. Like I think there's very few directors you go, you know what, they work with a dp by choice. But if they want to shoot it themselves, they probably could.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:08
David Fincher Michael Bay. Tony Scott, they have such unique styles that they easily could have kept just, you know, I mean, like, you look at Michael Bay's movies from bad boys, the rock Armageddon to the Transformers films. That's a Michael Bay movie.

Jason Crothers 1:09:27
Yeah, it's just it's that there's not a conversation, different DPS, but a very similar sensibility.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:32
Yeah, and really interesting to me, Tony, I mean, I mean, Tony's were I mean Days of Thunder Top Gun. I remember topcon showed up top gun was like, everyone's like, what is this like he brought, he was kind of like I know really. He was the big boy but I think Tony I got I miss Tony too. With with top gun he brought this commercial sensibility, real heavy commercial sensibility to to the art form. And then it was just a very different energy as opposed to like Ridley who did alien Of course and Blade Runner. He brought that same kind of commercial thing, but it was just different. He was a slower hand where Tony was more, a little bit more positioning actually.

Jason Crothers 1:10:15
Yeah, there's a lot more there's a kind of a frenetic energy to it versus like really, Scott's always had a much more kind of classical approach to think of like, incredibly compose incredibly well lit return. He's got his movies look amazing, but definitely have a more of a commercial vibe to them. I mean, like, you take something like man on fire. Well, that was that

Alex Ferrari 1:10:36
He was in his experimental stage. At that point. He was doing crazy stuff I love

Jason Crothers 1:10:40
But I think that's my point. It's like you look and go that still has it seemed kind of frenetic energy, but a completely different aesthetic, I think largely part too often to the DP.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:48
Right, exactly. So even his last movie unstoppable. I mean, you watch that and that that last series, I think men and black amendment black man and a man on fire was the first kind of I mean, he was playing with no Domino. I think Domino was he went crazy. And Domino. Yeah. Domino, like the DP. I remember watching the DP what they were doing, they were just shooting reversal stock. They were they were doing bleach bypass and Oh, God, it was just like, they were going crazy with that. Cross processing. Yeah, that was a cross process act double exposing it. Yeah. And he's like, okay, now open, open mag, open the mag a second, or open the open the lens to just a little bit of lights come in. I mean, and this was a student, these are studio projects. I mean, when you look at something like even unstoppable, right before he passed, it looks like a 27 year old did it? Yeah, you know, it was it was amazing. It was really, really amazing to watch. We could keep geeking out for hours, sir. But I'm gonna ask you a few questions that ask my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jason Crothers 1:11:52
Oh, um, it's a great question. Um, I would say, I'm kind of, I'm always trying to make it very concise. And there's a term like a 20 minute diatribe. I think coming into business today, you have to have absolute certainty. That's what you want to do. I think somebody somebody gave me really good advice, which was, if you can see yourself doing anything to make a living and being happy with it, you should go do that. But if you can't see yourself doing anything else, stick with this. So I think you have to really be committed to this. Understand that, you know, making a career takes a lifetime. I think I find a lot of people especially nowadays, you know, it's like, Oh, am I film school? If I'm not, you know, making a living as a dp, you know, in five years, you know, I have I failed somehow, like, that's just not the way things work. Like, there's a reason, there's outliers are outliers for a reason, like, they're the exception, not the norm. For the other 99% of us, like it takes a long time, and a lot of work. And if anything, I'd say that maybe the best advice is, is humility. Like, you know, you're going to work hard. And you're not especially you're starting off, you're not going to be recognized, you're not going to be compensated for your work properly. Like, you're going to work really hard. And you have to learn your craft and learn to respect the process of making things. And just be respectful to people actually, I usually give the same advice, which is, it's just good life advice. Don't be a dick. Like,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:28
a great t shirt. It's a great t shirt,

Jason Crothers 1:13:30
I keep saying I'm gonna make a T shirt says Don't be a dick, because that's actually the best advice I can ever give to anybody. I'm like, look like when I'm hiring people. If I've got two people, like one person who's got an amazing resume, and is enormously talented, but isn't the best human being versus somebody who's young and eager, and it seems really cool. I'll go with the young cool. Absolutely every single time because for me, I'm like, I don't want to spend like I don't like spending 10 minutes with somebody who's unpleasant, let alone 12 hours a day for you know, four weeks or nine months. So

Alex Ferrari 1:14:04
yeah, no question. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Jason Crothers 1:14:10
Oh, I'm still work in progress. I don't know. I wouldn't say necessarily the longest time to learn. But I do. I do think especially estimator ographers. It's very, I mean, look, cinematography is obviously a key component to any film, like you take a camera out of the equation, you have a radio show. So cinematography is absolutely important. In cinematographers our jobs are very, you know, I don't say this to like, you know, like, toot our own horn. But I think practically speaking cinematographers have some of the hardest jobs on set in terms of, you know, writing the line between technical and craft and also schedule and budget and a lot of politics and have a lot of influence and a lot of control over Most. Especially if you're doing a TV show, like you often are running the set more than then like a director will. And that's not for a place of ego. Let's replace it like, Alright, they're here for one episode. But you're here for 22 episodes. So you end up kind of being a guardian of the show, and helping guide a director who's like, you've been doing this for years. This is my first time here. What do you think? So I think it's very easy for cinematographers to, to get wrapped up in that, and not understand that, like, yes, photography is important. But there are a lot of aspects to every production. And I think it's important to also step back and go cool. We're all gears in a bigger machine. Now is this photographer, I might be a very big gear. I'm not the biggest gear, and I'm not the most important gear. So if anything, I think I've learned like, again, that's humility, like, yeah, I always say like, I hopefully I don't have any ego and whatever ego I have is what shows up on screen like, I want the work to speak for itself.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:04
Can real quick, Can you discuss on set politics, and the importance of understanding onset politics, which is something they don't teach you in film school? And the only thing that you got to learn the hard way?

Jason Crothers 1:16:18
Yeah. Yeah, well, we could we could do an entire episode on on politics. Because Yeah, I think film schools, the thing film schools are lacking as they teach people about art and they teach people a craft. I don't think film schools do anything about career management, not especially when it comes to cinematographers. And understand that, like, you'll look at the seminar I prefer, if I get to, if I get to do lighting, and camera and visual storytelling, like 15 or 20% of my day, that's a good day for me, because the other 80% is spent with schedule and politics personalities. Yeah, yeah, everything that has nothing to do with lighting. Cuz that's you, you're a manager, like you're, you're an artist, and a manager and a crafts, crafts person at the same time. And depending on the production, your the project you're working on, and who you're working with, that will shift sometimes throughout the day, you're like, right, right now, I'm a manager right now, I'm an artist right now. I'm just a technician. In terms of politics, I mean, look, the easiest thing is, I've learned is like, keep your mouth shut and listen. Like, you know, very few people ever get in trouble by not speaking, you know, like, be quiet, keep your mouth shut until you are either ask your opinion, or you have a strong opinion that you think has value to it. But I think another thing also is, is again, going back to Don't be a dick. Like, I think a big part of politics is just being a polite, decent human being more, you should do it because it's just the right decent, decent human thing to do. Also, you don't always know who you're talking to. And you also don't know the person you know, the person you're talking to right now, you might be working craft service five years from now, they might be, you know, producing VP of a network that has a decision about whether or not you're hired. I told the story before one of the best movies experience ever had on the set, came about from a relationship I got called by a producer went in for an interview and went Greg got offered to do the movie. And at some point during prep, I was like, Hey, I never asked how'd you get my like, how'd you get my information? And they like like, Oh, my brother and he thought their brother's name. I was like, cool. I don't I have no idea who this person is. And so I had to go back. I was like, looking through my emails. And I discovered through serious conversations, I had done this terrible short film. And this kid was like 19 at the time had been the craft service pa wasn't even the craft service person was helping the craft service person

Alex Ferrari 1:19:01
On the on the totem on the totem pole of where you are on the set

Jason Crothers 1:19:05
Right. Yeah, helping the craft service person. And apparently had told his brother was like, Oh, yeah, I did this short. Yeah, no, it seemed like a good thing. Very good. But yeah, the DP was, you know, seemed to know they were doing and they were really cool to me and, and really nice. And like flash forward, like four or five years later, it was like, Oh, this guy was like, I'm doing this movie. And I remember my brother talking about you and then up, up, and I liked your work. And you came in and I was like, I got recommended for movie to end up being a great experience for me. Because I was polite to the craft service pa like you never know, where those relationships go, you know, come and go from so in terms of politics, if you're not sure, don't say anything. And just be polite to everybody. I mean, that's actually probably the easiest advice for set politics without getting into a whole other podcast about politics.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:56
So just basically Be quiet. Listen and And be nice.

Jason Crothers 1:20:01
Yeah, I've never gotten in trouble for not speaking usually what I got in trouble because I've opened my mouth and I was like, I should have just kept thinking to myself.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:11
Jason man, where can people find you? If they're if they're looking to hire a crack crack shot dp

Jason Crothers 1:20:17
To hire crack up? I get a website. It's just my name jasoncrothers.com. I tried a especially now with COVID. I stayed pretty active on Instagram and post a bunch of stuff up there. Yeah, my website, and Instagram.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:33
Very cool. Jason. It's been a pleasure. I'm sure we could talk for another four or five hours. Just on Kubrick alone, we can have an hour per director, we discussed the loan just going through their filmographies and just geeking out your

Jason Crothers 1:20:48
Michael Mann and David Fincher.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:51
Stop it. I'm gonna start talking again. Man, it was a pleasure having you on the show, man. Thank you. So I'm so glad we finally got to do this. So thanks again and stay safe out there.

Jason Crothers 1:20:59
Likewise, my pleasure to meet you, my friend.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 394: Lighting Big Budgets and Indie Films with Shane Hurlbut

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:03
I like to welcome to the show Shane Hurlbut. How you doing Shane?

Shane Hurlbut 0:06
Alex, how are you? I'm doing amazing. I'm doing frickin fantastic.

Alex Ferrari 0:13
I feel that's the pandemic talking, sir.

Shane Hurlbut 0:19
I'm want to I love to stay positive in every way, shape and form. And one of the things that I was told by a mentor years ago is like, everyone always comes in to work. And they always ask you, how are how you're doing and I only have two words, frickin fantastic. Every single day. It sets the bar.

Alex Ferrari 0:39
That's a great, that's a great piece of advice. And it does it does. It does set the day because if you're the cinematographer, you walk on set and your crews like, how'd you do and you're like, Man, it's gonna be a rough day. That's exactly kills, kills the day kills the day

Shane Hurlbut 0:52
kills the day. But when you say, you know what, because a lot of times I'll be walking in and you know, electric had come in and say, Hey, Shane, how you doing? I go, I'm frickin fantastic. How are you? And they're like, Whoa, this is gonna be amazing day. And it just never changes.

Alex Ferrari 1:08
A good piece of advice as directors listening as well. How you doing? freakin fantastic. I love it.

Shane Hurlbut 1:15
Yeah, stay positive. Stay positive. So

Alex Ferrari 1:17
Shane, your career has been very man, you've gone from indie stuff to all the way to $200 million plus projects. You've you've done, you've done it all. Pretty much. And that can't be done with us in cinematography. How did you get started, man?

Shane Hurlbut 1:35
Yeah, that was a interesting journey. I thought I was gonna be a DJ.

Alex Ferrari 1:41
I've never heard that before.

Shane Hurlbut 1:43
Oh, yeah, it's a good one. So I was I started doing the morning announcements at our high school. And everyone was like, wow, you got a really good voice, you should, you know, go for radio and. And up in upstate New York, we had this radio station that had this incredible guide. And I think it was like 94 rock, you know, and it was a station that I listened to all the time. So I started to become a DJ. So I started doing dances and a prom, and homecoming and all these different things, and went all over the local upstate New York area. And then when I decided to go to college, I was like, you know, I don't want to really burn my parents money. They were kind enough to say they would help me with my education. So I was like, let me test the waters. Let's meet. Let me see if I like this. So I went to a small community college just to see if I really fell in love with radio. Well, the first year was radio, totally loved it. The second year was television. And the television just blew my mind. That's where it just started to open up these kind of ideas and creative inspiration, everything. And then a friend of mine was directing. He was in the USC directing program. And he came back to our hometown, and he was doing a small movie that summer. And I just wanted to be a part of it in any way I could. And I was a PA and then I was a little I was a grip. And I was an electric and I was doing everything I could. And at that point, I got in with a full ride scholarship to Emerson College in Boston, and I went there. And that was where I just fell in love with film. And but the funny thing is, is I hated cinematography. I thought I was going to be a producer because I could I could convince anybody to do anything I wanted. And I was good with numbers.

Alex Ferrari 3:50
Fair enough,

Shane Hurlbut 3:51
right? I had that passion. I was positive. I was like, all right, you know, I could sell anything as well, you know, so I was like, all right. And you know, after about three months of me wearing my mom got me a nice three piece suit. And I was like pounding the pavement in Boston knocking on doors. And every one of them was just slammed in my face saying, you know, no, no, I went back and I said, Alright, let me go back to the internship that I had, which was at a local grip, electric and camera house in Boston. And that's where I started and I started to fall in love with grip and lighting and camera. And then I got to a point where within three months, I was running the whole rental division. And then I decided that I was starting to go out on jobs because I came from a farm, right? So that's my upbringing. I was we had like a 300 acre farm in upstate New York. And so I could drive 10 ton trucks, 40 footers, whatever it was, I could drive and I started driving trucks and I was the grip truck driver. I started going out, I was managing the rental division and also going out on jobs. And quickly I saw that the only way I was going to move up in Boston is if the guy or the girl that was above me died. So I knew it was a very limited pool there. So I, you know, my fiance at the time, who was my high school sweetheart, Lydia, who I met at three years old. I said, Lydia, let's go to LA, let's, you know, make this mission, this, this Exodus out of the East Coast and go to the west coast. And that's what we did. And I started right back at the bottom again, working in a small little rental house. And then I got a job that they asked me to be the grip truck driver, which meant I had to leave my job at the rental house, which was, you know, I finally had a full time job and I was starting to bring in some money, whoo, $5 an hour on steel toed boots and T shirts, jeans, working in the warehouse. But I finally said okay, I'm going to go for it. So I got on this feature. And this feature was called Phantasm. Two. Ball is back nice. And I worked as a grip truck driver, and I was averaging about 18 hour days, I was getting $350 a week. So it ended up being like, you know, 79 cents an hour or something like that when it was all said. So that was my break in and when I was you know, I was because I knew the truck and organizing everything. I got a call on set. Terry Wimmer, the key grip, no shade run me in an 18 by 24 flag. So I ran in, grabbed the flag off the truck and ran it in I was going down the steps into the crematorium set. And this best boy electric, Brian Coyne very good friend of mine is an amazing director of photography and directors. Well, he's walking up the stairs. And he goes, would you be scared? And I go, Brian, what the hell you're talking about. I gotta run this flag down into Terry. He goes. Would you be scared in the theater? Look, every nook and cranny is lit. There's no shadow. It was like cam from that point on. All I looked at was light. And I went from a grip truck driver in 1988 to shooting my first music video for Nirvana Come as you are in 1991 So three years, I aspired and it just from that on it was just off to the races. That's

Alex Ferrari 7:54
awesome. Well, what was it like shatter Nirvana man? I mean, that must have been

Shane Hurlbut 7:58
three I did come as you are I did in bloom and I did lithium. I did Stone Temple Pilots Vaseline interstate love song. You know, we did

Alex Ferrari 8:13
all the 90s all the great 90s

Shane Hurlbut 8:15
grunge era. Yeah, it was really hot on the grunge era.

Alex Ferrari 8:18
That's That's amazing. I have to ask you real quick when you were when you were coming up in the grip departments. Did you ever did anyone ever just point over to a pile of cables that were about a mile long and said detangle those for me? Oh, yes. So did I

Shane Hurlbut 8:38
absolutely. And yeah, there were a lot of lot of crazy gigs I got myself into Condor operation was the worst for me because you know they put you up in that Condor at 90 feet in the air. And I'll never forget one day it was one of those stories that you remember back in your history of like oh my god, I could have died kind of moment. I was working on some really bad you know D movie for deferred pay. Big thing when I was getting

Alex Ferrari 9:14
it. Did you get that? Did you get the defer pay? Oh, they never

Shane Hurlbut 9:18
did like 20 of them like they never got paid to die. So I'm in this kind door in the wind starts kicking up and it's got to 18 K's in it. And the gaffer says, you know, we need to bring it down. So I'm like, I go I need to come down. This is way before all the you know, high tech wind devices, everything and all the beautiful safety things that we have now that this would have never happened but I was freaking out because the basket was moving around like crazy up there. And he's like, you know You're not coming down, it's it's fine, you know? And I said, Okay, you know, and all of a sudden this big wind gust came up. And all of a sudden, that Condor just started to go. No. So the thing starts slowly going, and it starting to pick up steam and pick up steam and pick up steam. And I'm just looking and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna end it's over a ledge, right? It's over like this ravine, no. And that thing's just gonna go right over it, right. So I'm thinking to myself, okay, that's gonna crush everyone down below me and everything is coming down. So at about 20 feet, I disconnect my safety harness, and I jump. So I land, you know, and roll, I you know, just to the side of the ravine, so I don't go off of it. And this lift literally comes down and parallels. And everyone it was like, it was watching paint dry, even though it happened a lot faster, but it was like the, and that it just hung there. And and then all of a sudden was like, that just started gathering steam, you know, and everything. And then it just went like this and the 18k shot out of them. And it was the coolest lighting effect I've ever seen in my life because the ADK boom, and then everything went black.

Alex Ferrari 11:30
Oh my god. The gaffer

Shane Hurlbut 11:33
came over to me and he started yelling at me like yelling at me I was killed myself and I was gonna kill everyone else do because this thing would have gone right over the ravine it was gonna take out the whole camera department. Oh my god. Yeah, he yelled at me. Yeah, that was that's that's how it was done back then.

Alex Ferrari 11:56
So, you literally I mean, if you would have been it could have easily instead of stopping you could have kept going because of your weight.

Shane Hurlbut 12:02
Oh, yeah. would have kept on going because, you know, here was the this we are shooting on a road like this. And the Condor was out like this backlighting it up like so I was going like this over the ravine with the 18k. So I jumped just to the side of the road and rolled down this thing. So would have gone over, caught that neck and then the whole Condor would have gone over the edge.

Alex Ferrari 12:27
Oh my god, it's insane. What what he was this was in the 1980s. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the 80s were how we survived the 80s as a general statement is it's like, the kids today are like looking around like, oh, oh, this hurts or that hurts. I'm like, Are you kidding me? What we had a you are just looking at our playgrounds. In the 70s, and 80s.

Shane Hurlbut 12:55
I know our playgrounds were literally torture chambers. Now they're like, you know, they got the foam roller everywhere. So if you fall and you bounce, and it's beautiful,

Alex Ferrari 13:07
it was straight, it was straight concrete, it was straight concrete, five stories up on the monkey bars, you would fall crack your skull, or you would go to the top story of the slide that was metal, and then you shorts in the middle of the summer and get their degree burns. your skin's peeling off because it's so damn hot. You're like, now it's all plastic. And it's all like, Oh, it's that's why Yes, exactly. That's an amazing story. That's amazing story. So so you I mean, you've you've lit some very large sets, and some very big action sequences and thinking of Terminator. How do you approach lighting these massive set pieces? I mean, these these ads are massive, with, you know, hundreds, if not 1000s of people running around the effects, you're thinking about practicals? I mean, just as a cinematographer, how do you approach mentally to, to cover that and live it and then cover it?

Shane Hurlbut 14:10
Yeah, so you know, the big, the kind of big footprint. You know, lighting setups are something that I absolutely love. You know, it kind of you think about it, I kind of take it apart, like, let's say a football field, right? If you you can shoot three directions on it with the light. If I if I light it from this direction, then it's a sidelight to this way. It's a sidelight that way and it's a backlit in this way. So you got three areas that you can cover from creating one big light source, let's say, let's say Terminator Salvation, for example, the processing plant that we did, where, you know, all those people are being pushed by that bulldozer thing that you know, I embedded these spikes in it and these lights that he rubbed in, it starts pushing the people. And we kind of, you know, I wanted everything is is all about the, you know, lighting the background first, then lighting the mid ground, then eventually the foreground where the actors might be playing. So my big thing for that was okay, how can I create this incredibly, you know, really scary tone in this Terminator Salvation processing plant. So I was like, Alright, what if I get some metal halide lights and get like 60 of them and line them up on basically crates, stadium lights. So we created these massive 55 foot Petey bones with I think it was like 20 metal halides on each one. And they were like in racks of, you know, five across four high. And we catapulted those up and what I wanted to do, and you don't see it in the movie, because they cut it out beforehand. But what these things did is they aim straight up in the air, and they were all full spot. And it almost looked like a tractor beam. And that was the whole idea is through the fog and the dirt and all that stuff. This was the guiding light for, you know, the transporters to come in and settle down into the area, there's like this tractor beam, and then I wrapped them straight up. And then as they came in and landed, these things started to tilt down, and just, you know, expose the whole bed of several transporters that are dropping all these people off. So that was my first big approach for lighting something that was like five football fields long. And a football field wide, is just the the motivation of what the emotion is like, okay, these are the machines, let's go metal halide, let's turn it that blue green kind of nastiness. Let's inject these white beaming lights that flare the lens and, and are foreboding and dangerous for people and, and then do it in a way that, you know, I put a very subtle amount of fill. So it still had that dark, dark nature to it, but you can barely see into the shadows areas to to, you know, to see that emotion from their faces and stuff. So, you know, lighting the big venues is is usually starting with just one big source. And where is that one big source coming from? I could go to like greatest game where I would take a huge Grand Ballroom and calculate at like the Copley place and it was up in, in Montreal and we found this amazing ornate turn of the century ballroom and it's like, the the bones are there. There's beautiful, warm practicals and everything. But it's just that and just the window light. It doesn't feel grand. So it's like you have to bring that out with you know, I put a huge source on the right hand side that was out of frame that was 12 to 12 by 12.

You know bleach muslins, and I pounded 18 K's into them, and then shaved it with ciders and toppers to feel like more window light that we don't see. Like the the ballroom goes on for Right, right. Right. Right. And, and again, it's that's the also the thing of selling the illusion, right. So this, we still have a beautiful wide shot from the second storey and we're pushing in ever so slightly. But Wow, there's this light coming in. So the ballroom must be going on for even more, you know. So lighting, also, these elements create the illusion of bigger locations than they actually are. So just by bringing in that kind of cold tone mixed with the warm practicals and the sconces that are on the wall, it was a very easy light in that location because it just basically was started with practicals and one huge source. I try to kiss it, keep it simple, stupid. You add lights, the more complicated everything gets. So I try to you know, start with one big source and then slowly add on to that and the background is something that is is everything to me. So I like that first and create all the depth and dimension whether it's bokeh whether it's you know out of focus Other highlights or or whatever it is that plays with light and shadow back there to give it depth and dimension that three dimensional quality. And then I slowly moved to the mid ground and then to the foreground where the actors are moving and I generally try to light an area not marks. One thing that Harrison vetus taught me and he was so spot on with this, he goes Shane, light an area, not a mark, because you want the actors to feel that they can move in this area. And then it feels not so perfect. And, and a little, like its beauty raw, I would say. And that's where I'd say, Ben Whiteman, you know, he's a, he's another amazing director of photography, and he likes exactly like that. It's imperfect, but it's still beautiful, you know, it has that rawness to it. And, and you do that by just lighting an area and not necessarily lighting marks, because lighting marks, you're gonna they're gonna nail their mark. And you can have the perfect wrap on the key light and the perfect backlight and nice fill and everything. But when you have to light a larger area for them to move in, the imperfections of the light, actually add to authenticity and reality. And I feel it feels more organic.

Alex Ferrari 21:23
There's a movie that when I speak to cinematographers of all status from the early, you know, guys just trying to come up to establish, establish cinematographers like yourself, there's a movie and there's many movies we can point to. But there's one movie that I personally loved, but it is kind of like this holy grail of cinematography in many ways. There are many holy grails of cinematography, but this is one searching for Bobby Fischer is one of those because and I always asked him like, it's, it's a family film. It's like, it's not brand. It's not flashy. And but when I talked to some of Hogwarts about that film, it was Conrad rose, Conrad Hall,

Shane Hurlbut 22:00
Conrad Hall, yet,

Alex Ferrari 22:02
he was doing things that no one had done before he was using mirrors. Do you know what he did and how he lit that?

Shane Hurlbut 22:10
Yeah, I worked with Conrad Hall a little bit for a very short stint as like a gaffer kind of slash grip scenario. And one of the things I was amazed with is he's a hard light lighter. That's what he does. Hard Light is his best. That's his toolbox. And what he does is every light on set is full spot. Really, there's no full flood. So if he's trying to cast shadows, yes, of course, he's going to full flooded so you can get the hard shadows but when he's lighting a face, that light is full spot, and then it's scrim down to exactly the right level. So we were constantly like, I was like, when I'd walk outside, I was like, What is with all these double and triple scrim bags? Like somebody who the hell needs that many scrims? You know, and then all of a sudden he is like, you know spotting the thing in him like Damn, that's right now all of a sudden the whole house became the thing two doubles in a single boom you know full house it okay another full house and I'm like, How the hell does that even fit in there and they're you know, grip cooking the thing on the outside you know, right right down but that was how we lit and searching for Bobby Fischer use tons of that hard shadow and hard light to really show the emotions of them and all the characters and you know, another great one is rode to the audition. Oh, you know, that Oh, lit Hard Light. And you know, the way he positioned zoom and the you know, once working with him, I my moonlight is always silver. It's like he really dialed in the silver moon light there was nobody that did silver moon light like him and that's that's something that I responded to and I've always done my silver moon light is where it's at. And you know, another person that does that very well is Bob Richardson. like snow falling on cedars is probably within the top five greatest cinematic achievements ever. Well, I don't know if you've ever seen c No,

Alex Ferrari 24:25
I haven't haven't seen that one. I've seen that one snow falling

Shane Hurlbut 24:27
on cedars is an absolute masterpiece. And you know, it's people always say Shane What is this when your style of only lighting from one side I'm like, guys, just look at snow falling on cedars. It's, it's got it, you know, it's like because what I love is that, just that timeless light from one side, the film never crosses over to this side. Everything is lit from one side to the other. And then you use the background to separate The Dark Side. And

Alex Ferrari 25:02
that thing you don't feel good and you don't feel you do a little feel I feel

Shane Hurlbut 25:04
from over camera. I never feel from the opposite side. Really thing is 180 degrees. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 25:12
Interesting. So you never so you don't do standard three point lighting as they as they've taught in school, it's different.

Shane Hurlbut 25:18
No, it's it's three point lighting all from one side. Interesting. That's a real the backlight is on the same side as the key light, right? The same side of the fill light. So everything is coming. So the backlight is not a dead back, it's a three quarterback, right. And then you add the softness of a key or a hard light of a key. So you got to so that's like a key on key scenario as I call it, because you're keying with the backlight as well as wrapping the fill. And then what I'll do is I'll do this kind of kind of a j shape that goes from hard to semi hard to soft to super soft, all the way around. And that's kind of you know, if I'm doing any kind of scenario where where people are walking into frame, or I'm lighting an area, that's kind of how I attack it, it's like, you know, it starts hard, and then it moves around to like, you know, just a cream source with magic claw.

Alex Ferrari 26:20
Nice. Nice. That's very, very interesting way of going about it. Now there's a we get caught up so much with cameras, cinematographers and filmmakers get caught up with like, what's the latest? k? what's the latest? This? What's How many? I need? 45k? Really? Do you need 35k? Do you really? Are you shooting IMAX really for $550,000? independent independent feature you need you need to 45k so what is your The one thing I always tell filmmakers? When they're like, what should I invest in I go class, if you're going to invest, it's always glass, glass doesn't go unless you you're shooting 45k then you might need to figure out glass that's big enough to cover the sensor. But what glass Do you are drawn to for your projects? Is it a per project basis? Or is there a specific kind of glass that you really like as I know cinematographers in their glass is very, they're very specific about what they really love.

Shane Hurlbut 27:17
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it is based on per project because I feel that the glass is the soul the movie. The camera is the the tool, you know, it's it's kind of the, let's say it's the, the foundation of, of, of, you know, and that the foundation and let's say it's the mortar, but the bricks, the soul of the building is the glass. And, you know, I've gone like every project like let's say greatest game ever played, right? I you know, working with Bill Paxton, you know, we we stumbled on to a look of this book called Bound for Glory, which was all these reclaimed. They found them in some persons addict in Kansas City, Missouri, that were all these old Kodachrome prints from the FSA area era. And because the FSA and shot black and white throughout the whole time, but when Kodak came out with Kodachrome, in the late 1930s, they 1600 prints were were struck. And these were printed in this book Bound for Glory. And both Bill and I really resonated that this is going to be the look for the greatest game. We wanted it to feel period. But we also wanted it to have a contemporary style to camera. So it's like we delivered a period look, but the camera we flew with the camera, you know, with a ball and went into the hole and we you know, showed the power of each individual golfer got inside their head. And so I did a lot of research on you know, old glass and I went to panda vision and I just dug into their archives for about three days and I came out with these old Zeiss ultra speeds Mark twos, they were like, made in the late 60s. And their coating was not the greatest. And when you put them down to a tee to, they started to really follow

up on one three, there was even there was a lens that was specifically done for Stanley Kubrick and that was a 50 mil and a T one. Right so I had I always had that one in my arsenal. I grabbed that one. I had 55 We call it the jacked up 50 or the double nickel, there were all these weird focal lanes, a 20 a 2929, which was is the greatest steady cam lens on the planet, the 29. The, it had, you know, like the double nickel 255 it had 16 you know, just all these very weird focal lengths, and we did a series of tests, and I, it took me 20 different sets to find a matching three set, right, either yellow or just all jacked up. And they were, you know, everyone was like, why you shoot with these things? Shane, these things were $15 a day to rent. That's it. $15 a day. Wow. And then, once they were like panel vision kept on saying, Wow, Shane's really you know, when I did Semi Pro, I use that same glass. No, they did. We are partial, I use that same glass because it has a great period look. And they're like, what is going on with him? Why is he always shooting with these things? We got to investigate these. So then they took them and turn them into the classics now. So I think they call them the vintage primes. So all the mark twos were rehoused because one thing shooting with them, which is difficult. Some lenses had this some lenses that someone said that, you know, they're all over the map. So it created all these doughnuts and all Yeah, slows the filmmaking process down every time you change the lens, right? So they p vintaged. These put a new coating on them and then rehoused them. So they're all the same millimeter diameter. And you know, now they go for $150 a day. But it was the same glass I use for her $15 a day. And you can still get the mark twos that are not p vintage, and I go to those a lot as well. I'm always constantly, you know, bringing my set that I had resurrected done, like can you find the serial numbers from back in the day of your and they're like, Yes, we have them in your system. Here they are. And those are the lenses I end up shooting with. So I love the old vintage glass. I'm not the big anamorphic guy. I know. anamorphic is a massive craze right now, everyone's all into this thing. I couldn't be further from that. I like spherical, spherical, feels more real. Spherical, feels more intimate. And when you get those wide angles pushed in close and really into the scene, which you cannot do with anamorphic 's because they cannot focus. You don't feel intimate with the actors. I always feel anamorphic lenses. You're a pedestrian? Why would you want that. Now, of course, there's tons of movies that don't feel like pedestrian that have been shot on anamorphic that are awesome. This is just my point of view. This is how I look at lenses and how I feel because I'm much more of a person that not not a long lens here, stand back and lens in a much I like to be much more immersive that really started with all the sports movies I started to do because I felt you know, getting inside the action and inside the game was much more powerful than showing the audience what they've already seen on television, right from the outside. Now what you have to do is a beautiful balance of lensing from the outside to show geography and getting into the game you can't just do in the game because nobody knows where the hell you're on the field. Right? You do those outside in shots. And that's something where I call it the inside out. Right? It's like I tried to first take apart the scene from doing it all inside inside the game so you feel completely intimate. And then you say what do you need to tell the story geography and that's what you use from the outside. So it's not like okay, let's establish it you know, it's not outside it's inside out.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
Now did you ever have you ever shot with an optic can optic

Shane Hurlbut 34:20
oh my god guy got

Alex Ferrari 34:22
that thing to me. No, not the camera the lens the Synoptic the Oh, I thought you

Shane Hurlbut 34:27
were talking about that weird Chinese?

Alex Ferrari 34:29
Oh, no, no, no, no, that one. No the the this because that's just my I love vintage lenses. So I'm a vintage hound for lenses. The synoptic 9.2 which is what Kubrick shot shining inside the inside that made shining following following the boy and then in Clockwork Orange. If you pay the panning right before the break in the pan, that's all of its it's a it's a 9.2 without without fisheye so that's I got the 16 version of that. Sorry guys, we're gonna geek out for a second I got the 16 I got the 16 millimeter version of that which is a 5.7 and connected it to the Blackmagic Pocket 1080 P and it's stunning shot my last feature with it. It's done. It's just Nope, nope no fisheye, but you need light. It's great for outside inside you got to pump the light into it, but it's I always thought some dp is about that they're like, you mean no fisheye like it's such an old lens that it's I call it the Kubrick because Stanley love love shooting with that have you ever shot with

Shane Hurlbut 35:34
it? No, I haven't I gotta check that thing out i mean i i do love the cow was always so nice and at the cow was I really liked those I like the old you know the the lot of the the Zeiss that they took like the coatings off Oh yeah, yeah, those are no and all those guys have, you know, done a lot of reengineering on a lot of the older glass. But I do like I said it's project by project but one thing that I've been doing a lot lately is using Leica and I've always been a fan of like us if you look at all the pan of vision glass pan a vision the word lights glass, it was not pan envision glass it was lights glass, so and that's what I really responded to coming up in my career. I was all about the pan of vision Primo prime. So when the new Suma Crohns and Suma Lux just came out with the like as I did test on both and I found that you know, the sumo flexes with the one three give you an amazing you know, shallow depth of field and much more of a flatter field. They're they're very clinical, but the Summa krons at a T two and basically $10,000 less a lens, they have more of the imperfections, and they're better with skin. And they they don't flatten out a face. The face has dimension. So those have been like my secret weapon for a lot of the work that I've been doing lately is I just love the Summa krotz. And they I don't need a one three. I love my T two no problem. You know, but then you go for like Need for Speed. I shot with cook s fours. I love that fathers and daughters cook. Yes, fours. Terminator I shot with panda vision primos. I love the way they flared. I love the

Alex Ferrari 37:41
Yeah, the

Shane Hurlbut 37:41
flares were nice and contrast. And also the contrast of those lenses. They have a real good contrast ratio. So yeah, it's it's, it's really per project for sure. And I think, you know, I was I was interviewing for a project recently and I was like, there were kind of two different worlds. And I was looking at a lot of tests with the asure news, those new premier primes that came out. And that glass has a slight magenta to it. It's got a slight softness in the center. And it creams out beautifully. So I was going to use that for for this area of the movie. And then the more kind of, you know, raw and gritty, I was actually going to do with like the Zeiss signature primes that have much more of a bold contrast. He looks so just, we're using glass to tell the story and not necessarily your color correction.

Alex Ferrari 38:45
I wanted to ask you, I always love asking dpss What was the best time you've ever had on set like that, like the most fun that you like, everything was clicking either either just something that happened fun on the set, or the lighting was just like, man, I nailed it.

Shane Hurlbut 39:06
Let's see. There's been a lot of those moments. When I think that really comes to mind and it has a soft part in my heart was when I was doing we are martial. We were shooting and in Huntington, West Virginia for the first three weeks of the movie. And so we were all at those locations where it all went down. We went to the airfield where the plane crashed. We went to the University and and took all that flavor in and

there was a scene that we did out in the middle of nowhere on this lone road where Matthew Fox who is red, who did not hop on the plane he drove and It was my dad had come down with pancreatitis. And I've never had to leave a movie. And I had to, they told me he was going to die. So I went to MC G, and I said, MC Gee, I need a week off, I got to go see my dad, he's on his deathbed. So I flew back to Syracuse, New York, and stayed with my dad for a week. And he actually turned around. And when I flew back, the first shot I did was this lone road, with the isolated gas station in the middle of nowhere. And I just remember coming up, and I'm like, you know, alright, let's circle that thing with with yellow fluorescence around the exterior. Let's, let's put a mountain metal halide back behind the glow those trees and let's get one loan, you know, 224 light dinos on 120 foot con door, and just bring moonlight down the street, wet it down, so it has that glisten. And I just put the camera, the camera didn't even have to move. It was just like, bam. And we see that lone car with the headlights and he pulls over in the gas station. And it was like, this is one of those iconic moments where my god I thought my dad was gonna die, right, you know, stumble on set, basically got off the plane, right, you know, in night exterior, so I had to turn myself around into nights. And you know, this was the first frame that that came out of me, after all that emotion that I had been through. And that that was like a very defining moment. And then recently, I worked on this movie that was like a teen rom com. And it was with a director Emily King. And it was she was from Hong Kong. And she had a amazing pitch deck on the movie. And her vision was very strong, and we just completely bonded, shortlisting and coming up with this thing. And the last three days of the film, were our big dance numbers, because they did the musical Bye Bye Birdie. And I and Emily, and the production designer did not want to do it, like most high school musicals would have done it very literally, we wanted to take a very kind of surreal take on this and very abstract in the lighting. And then working with the dance, the dance team and the choreography to be able to put all these lights in and how they positioned and moved with the dancers. And I'm just telling you, I was at that monitor, and when the shit all came together, it was absolute magic. And it was like one of those kind of moments where you just look back and you say, Oh, my God, I just I love when, you know, it's all the departments just all, you know, fueling on 12 cylinders. It's like you got production design, just knocking out the set. And the abstract nature of it, you've got my lighting team that is just bringing the excellence and precision. You got the dancers delivering every single time no matter how many times I said, Okay, we got to do it again. And it's like the 80th time. And they were like saying, you know, Shane, we see so much of your passion and what you're in when you told us we had to do it for the first time we were all in even though we were spent, you know, and it's like that kind of positive nature and seeing it all happen on screen. And then the wave of accolades from the choreographer to the dancers to everyone saying that they just felt like, you know, this small little unit was was making everything so special, and they and we cared so much that they were represented so beautifully. And I don't know, it's just just one of those kind of moments where you kind of just, you sit back and you say, God, I love what I do.

Alex Ferrari 44:22
I love. That's awesome. Now, do you have any business advice that you wish you would have heard at the beginning of your cinematography career?

Shane Hurlbut 44:34
Yeah. The biggest advice I can give to people is that it takes time to be a filmmaker. It's not something that you can just pick up a camera and start making movies. Experience cannot be overlooked and it cannot be social. shortcut. It's not a shortcut, you have to go through the process of failure, and succeed and failure. I mean, I failed so much. When I was first starting out my God, I'll never forget my first gaffing gig. I was doing a Barbie commercial. And we had, we had started outside day exteriors. So I had set my meter at 50 aasa. And I was out there exposing film and all great. And then we came into the soundstage. Well, I forgot to Oh, oh, so we're lighting this thing, the whole thing. And then I went up to the, the DP. And I said, I just want to tell you, I've been writing this at 50 aasa. And he freaked out, you know, that was two and a half stops overexposed. He was worried with the Barbie and the client

Alex Ferrari 45:51
shot, but it was shoot, they shot at that at that essay, like they shot this is this is pre shooting or after you let it shot. We're,

Shane Hurlbut 45:59
yeah, no, we're shooting the whole time. And then I realized after lunch that I had set my Nita wrong, so everything that we had shot up to lunch was was basically stops over expose. So, you know, we had to go back to the agency and the creatives, and that put him in a very difficult place. And, you know, these are things that, you know, these are big mistakes, but you've got to learn from them. And and this is what I talked about, when the experience, you got to put yourself out there and you got to know you're going to fail. And, and, and I just, that's my whole mantra is like, I just want to continue to challenge myself push myself out of my comfort zone. You know, there's even as my career right now, I make mistakes, you know, I try new things. And I'm like, God, what was I thinking with this? You know, that didn't work. But you know, you pick yourself up yet, since those suspenders and you. And so my biggest advice to anyone starting out in this industry is you want to start at a rental house. bar none. If you want to be a director of photography, you got to get your hands on the camera, you got to listen to the people that are coming in, you got to listen to what they're using, you got to take all that in, that's experience that you're building that's happening just organically, it's like all you have to do is get that camera out there and you just listen, while you're doing stuff. Why are they using this type of filter? Or why are they Why are they setting the camera up this way? I'm going to mental note on that. And the same with a grip and electric house. You know, I started out at a rental house. So I'm Terminator Salvation, and the big mine escape, you know, where they go through the landmine and it's one shot, you know, beautifully choreographed or going with them and all that stuff. We had Xenon, 4k Xenon, and a scaffolding towers are quote unquote, search light. Right? When we're about ready to go, the light goes out. Well, everyone's scrambling and they don't know what's happening and all that stuff. And I had this Duster Jacket, they called me the crow. Cross and the thing flipped in the wind, you know, and I run to the Xenon, and I pop out the side panel, and the fuse is blown. And I take it, I grabbed some aluminum foil, I wrap it around the damn thing, jam it in there hit the transformer, and boom, the light ignites. And I run back and they're like, holy shit, how did you knew how to do that? And I'm like, well, these were work arounds in the rental house when, you know, we we wanted to see if the light fired and we didn't have the fuse. And these fuses were a specific one that necessarily we didn't carry all the time. And this was the workaround. So it's like I'm constantly at even to this day where you know, there's so many new people coming up the ladder and with this tax incentive states and Atlanta just exploding and there's not enough crew there to really support the the movies. So a lot of people are just walking off, you know, farming community and construction sites and all of a sudden, you know, right to work there. They're gripping electrics. So I'm constantly trying to, you know, teach this. You know, this, this new age of people that were quote unquote, did not go to film school. They just are doing it for the money. That's that new regime that I'm seeing interesting. Three, that's been a big shift that I started feeling in in 2018. When I went up to Canada, and all the all of my electrics were on permits. And they had all been on oil dikes just a month earlier.

Alex Ferrari 49:56
So they'd never been and they never been on set before. No How do you hire someone who's never been on set before to work and grip and electric? How's that work? If there's so much you have to learn?

Shane Hurlbut 50:06
Yeah, no, I No kidding.

Alex Ferrari 50:09
Like, what's what's? What's the flag? What's the C stand? I mean, like basic stuff? Yeah. And you're, so you're, and that was the crew that would have given to you and you're like, I gotta roll with this. And I got to teach everybody. And did you just send them to your Academy?

Shane Hurlbut 50:23
Basically, yes, I started after that moment, in 2017 2018, I created a grip and electric platform. So it teaches them how to use C stands, how to set flags, what they are, what they're called, how to run power, how to plug it in, how to distributed power, all that stuff. I just started doing grip and electric, because I'm like, I come up. And the first thing I do is I gift it to every grip and electric that's on my crew. And the people that are experienced, they're like, I got this or the people that aren't they they take it. And Elise, they have some kind of of infrastructure and and awareness to like, what things are called and how to use stuff.

Alex Ferrari 51:07
And so is that is that? I mean, obviously, I mean, you're a seasoned cinematographer. So some of these projects, obviously, you can't fly everybody in from LA. So you have to deal with locals. Yes. And that's the locals they have because there's just literally is no other crew in the area that could handle when they're busy on other projects or something.

Shane Hurlbut 51:26
Yeah, correct. When I did resident alien in the fall of 2018, there were 78 series and a film in Vancouver. Yeah. Right. So everyone was gone. You know.

Alex Ferrari 51:40
So you deal with you roll with whatever you had to roll with at the time.

Shane Hurlbut 51:43
And, you know, this is the new norm, I see. Because, you know, there's so much production going on. And it just literally, you know, in most of these places might have eight to 10 teams deep might. Right. So that's eight features. And then if you got rigging teams, then you're taking out a whole other plethora of, you know, technicians. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a sometimes you get just amazing talent. And then there's some times that you don't, and you try your best to work with it, but I've kind of, you know, set the a positive spin on it, because I do love teaching as well. And so I I tried to set it up, so they're learning as much as they can, and I take the time when I can to, to kind of educate them and get them up to speed.

Alex Ferrari 52:39
That's it seems like a pretty big load to carry as a cinematographer on a project live to be like shooting and also educating your crew saved. I mean, my from my experience on set, that's a pretty difficult thing to do. So God bless you, sir.

Shane Hurlbut 52:56
It is so funny, because all the ad is always give me a ton of shit. You know, they're all right. We're having a robot Academy moment, you know? Right, because All right, now this is how you know and I'll go into it and he goes, and then he goes, Alright, hold on crew. We're having a hurlbut Academy moment right here while I'm teaching the guy and I'm like, Dude, don't expose me for great

Alex Ferrari 53:20
I mean it's a people who haven't been on set it is it can be it can be a rough place to be sometimes especially when you get those those older gnarly you know gaffer grips, first IDs, production designers like heads, they they can they can definitely Rob, you know, question, do you have any low budget lighting tips for independent filmmakers? Where because there's so many features being made at micro budgets of 50 100 150 or lower to get a decent image? You know, because the cameras are really sensitive. I mean, you really, I mean, you could get a lot out of some of these low budget cameras.

Shane Hurlbut 54:01
Oh absolutely. I think that you know, like the Venice and the, the red Gemini, let's say has really opened up and the Panasonic very cam that the 5000 as a this kind of dual aasa scenario that the menace as well as the Gemini and now and Panasonic have the super sensitivity, you know, I would say you know practicals are your your best friends. And what I did with the Canon c 500 i need for speed and fathers and daughters as I would literally take that camera and plop it down. I call them shit sticks, right? So they're like, you know, those little carbon fiber, kind of plasticky sticks and I slapped the camera on it, and I would not light the room until that camera was up and turned on because the Gemini that canon, the Venice and And the Panasonic they see light that an add contrast that your eyes don't, right, it's gonna be on the eye now. Yeah, so that you can say wow, that practicals doing really well I don't have to simulate that or this is looking really good here and then I will roll my color temperature wheel and find that what's looking really good in the set. And then I start to light and, you know, from a DIY standpoint, you know, having practicals around that you can position and kind of help light the rooms and stuff is one thing. The other thing is just embracing you know, Home Depot and Lowe's. I love clamp lights, I still use them all the time. I'm using clamp lights all the time I'm I'm putting you know those under cabinet lights. The gorgeous Yeah, you know from Home Depot, I'm using the LED strips to stick underneath things you know, I I I tend to I like like the old dusk to dawn fixtures, the metal halide and sodium vapor. So I'll buy a couple of those and I can illuminate those because they match street lights perfectly so you don't have to worry about gel you don't have to worry about all those things obviously the sky panels will will match that you know source but if you don't have the money you know you can pick up a dusted done for under $60.04 100 water puts out a lot of light and you know you look at swing vote and crazy beautiful and oh yeah you know those films I lit all with those sodium vapor lights that were all from Home Depot and you know just going in and using fluorescence for when you want to use them I get shot fluorescence and cool white bulbs and that's what I'd hang in the ceiling for over the kitchen area because you know, they lived in a trailer and trailers always had that kind of, you know, weird recessed panel that was there with the fluorescent lights up into it. So you know, let's be real let's let's deliver the light. That's reality, you know, so I just screwed some shop fluorescence to the ceiling and put them up, you know, so it's there's a whole plethora of DIY tape tips you know, with the with the clamp lights with those fluorescents with the new LED sticks and strips and led ribbon.

Alex Ferrari 57:46
China balls Don't forget China balls, balls. Balls.

Shane Hurlbut 57:49
Yeah, always using China balls and then I shaped them with you know, black tablecloth, you know plastic tablecloth works beautifully ever. You don't have to use dooba teen you can use that black tablecloth because black tablecloth doesn't have the sheen of visqueen it's matte. So it's very much like Duma teen just not fire retardant and, and obviously thick and heavy. So the black tablecloth works beautifully to shape lights in different locations and ceilings where you can't, you know, be rigging these big toppers and everything because you can't compromise the location. So red frogs tape and black tablecloth and you're off to the races.

Alex Ferrari 58:35
Great, great tips. Which brings me to your online Academy. Please tell me about your labor of love. That is the whole URL Academy.

Shane Hurlbut 58:44
Yeah, so yeah, this is something that in 2009, when I was shooting act of valor, we literally flew around the world twice on that movie. We were down in Puerto Rico, where we are shooting the bad guys kind of you know, layer in Puerto Rico, and we stayed at this amazing hotel that was on the west side of the island. And my wife came down to be with me for a week. And we were sitting in bed one night and I was planning out my shot list for the next day. And she goes you know, Shane, what you're doing with this DSLR platform, and how you have kind of spearheaded this revolution, we need to talk about this. We need to share your knowledge and really ignite a revolution. I was like, What the hell are you talking about?

just shooting. I have a cinematographer and she goes I'm gonna brand you right and I'm like cinema I'm a cinematographer, not a brand and sure enough with her vision and and forward future thinking ways she you know, said let's start this blog and let's share now And I was like, Okay, sounds great. So we started this little blog and the blog just exploded during the DSLR revolution, because I was doing things that everyone was like what, you know, you're shooting a major feature film that's going to go in 9000 Theater screens on a DSLR. Still camera. Right? And, and I am like, yeah, and this is the settings that make your camera cinematic. And this is what I so you want to shoot at, to have the lower noise. And this is the lenses that you want to fabricate, you know, so it just like exploded. And based on that they wanted more and more, and ask for more and give, you know, let's start your writing. And writing is great. But we want video content. So then in 2014, we launched Shane's inner circle. And that was our first stab at a membership platform. And we really didn't know what the heck we were doing. All I knew is I had passion. And I had this God given talent to really inspire people and teach. And I just wanted to throw gasoline on anyone who wanted to be a part of it to just, you know, fuel that flame. And so we started out and we said it was going to be like the Netflix for filmmakers, you know, we made it super cheap. Because I didn't want all the way to the world on me to produce all this content. If it was really expensive, then the weight of the world was going to be on me and I wasn't going to be able to be a cinematographer. So we started out with just little longer blog posts and more depth and going down rabbit holes. And then we just started video content. And when the video content hit, and we saw how people responded to it, it was like, Alright, let's start to structure where I can be a cinematographer, and then do my movie and then come back and start shooting and creating this content. And we just started to do it at the grandest scale. We started 40 footers, 50, man and women crew, you know, full on catering and production and all the the stuff to be able to put this together. And it blossomed into what the hurlbut Academy is right now. Which is, you know, basically, our tagline now, which is going to be the filmmakers Academy very soon is master your craft. And we basically with this platform, we're bringing all my friends, and all my loyal, you know, vendors and everyone that have helped shaped me as a cinematographer, I'm now inspiring them and finding the ones that really want to teach and give back. And now we're going to get this team of a listers together. And we're just going to really come out swinging. And, you know, the filmmakers Academy is going to be all about that top level that you aspire to. Right. It's like I as much as I love the DIY tips and kind of the the popsicle sticks and gaffers tape stuff. You know, if I teach it that level, where do they have to aspire to, you need to teach at the highest level. And it's their, their learning and their experience that's going to scale it. Because if I do it at their level, then I've already filled in the blanks, and I've already done their job for him. What I want them to do is exactly what I did when I was a cinematographer coming up the ladder. I looked at Roger Deakins and Bob Richardson, and Emanuel lubinski. And I was like looking at the style of light and how they softened it and everything. And that was my mantra. Even when I was doing like the low budget music videos and little commercials and all stuff, where I didn't have the big 18 Ks and everything that they had. I just in my mind, I had to scale it. And that shaped me as a cinematographer. So I'm like, this is how we educate. We educate at the highest level. And but we do it in a way that's very fun. It's kind of, you know, enter. What do we call it? We edutainment. edutainment, you know, it's like I like to have fun I give people shit on on the crew I'm always like what do you do it you know, oh nice job you cut that one short Alright, but get another one you're fired. You know, it's like the set really light and airy and and you see every single stroke and because I came up on the technical side and did everything like grip and camera. I'm setting every flag I'm you know, painting Every light spotting every light in diffusing every light, setting the lens, doing all this so you see every finesse, and that's when it all started to happen for me, as an educator, as I saw, oh my god, we've, when we shoot this, like a live sporting event, there's like six or seven cameras, you see, you feel like you're on my shoulder, and you're a person. And that's what that's the way I make my movies is being right with you, and very immersive and the camera moves and flows with you. So I wanted the same thing with our education. And that's, that's when we really started to kick ass and and to take off.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:43
Well, I'll definitely put a link to the show notes. for that. I have a few questions asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Shane Hurlbut 1:05:52
break into business started a rental house, know that it's going to take some time for you to get your experience? Do not get frustrated? Okay, you you, you know, there's going to be times where things don't work out. And you're, you seem like you're working way too hard. And you know, I gave a robot Academy member because the first 100 people that signed up for all access, I gave them an hour long phone call. Nice. And I called me from Australia. And he had heard my advice way on the blog talking about going to a rental house. So he was at a rental house. And I said okay, so how long have you been at the rental house? And he says five years? And I said you've been there for years too long? And he goes, What are you talking about? I said, the rental house is your brick and mortar. That's where you're starting to figure it out. But you need to get on set. Now. You've you've already gone past your sell by date. So I'm going to tell you how to get off and how to get out on sets. So I said, Alright, so what do you do? there? He goes, Well, I'm the lead prep tech. All right. Okay, perfect. So you being the lead prep deck, you want to go into the marketing guy, and you say who's coming in? And obviously, you'll see the list that it is, and you call it that first day see? And you say hey, Alex, how you doing today? I am, you know, john doe, I am your lead prep deck at this rental house. And I was just wondering, you know, is there? Can we go get carts for you? Is there any place that you're storing your carts? And I can have the truck come and get your carts? And are you a coffee drinker? Do you like coffee? And what do you like for breakfast in the morning, he brought that stuff in, he started to do all those calls. And then I said and also take note of what they what you see them do. So if they are labeling the cases, then you label them the cases before they get there, label them with the millimeters, the close focus and the T stop. And every one of them. You know, they do that, you know, they're gonna do Velcro filter tabs, you know what their filter is? Start making those in your home. And he was like, well, that's a lot of work. I said, this is what you need to do to set yourself apart from all the other people that are trying to do what you want to do. Right. And literally, this advice I gave him, and he was out of the rental house in less than a month. And he's been working in the field ever since. The small little nuances and it's not brown nosing at all No, just preparing yourself to is this is exactly what you're going to do on the set. When you're a digital utility. What are you doing, you're getting the guy coffee or getting the guy lunch, you know, you're you're doing everything to set them up, you're coming in early, getting the carts off the truck, getting it all organized. This is you're showing him or her that you are already in that mindset that you know exactly what is going to be demanded of you. And you're not going to be the quote unquote, just rental house prep tech. And these are the things that set you above. It's the same way I did when I got out of the grip and electric. I was just like a guy who stacked you know, grip shelves and trucks. The only reason that I got hired on Phantasm two is because the guy the producer was making the deal with with the rental manager, and they happen to look out the window. And they saw me running back and forth from the grip truck to the warehouse and back and the guy goes, Who's that guy? And they go, that's that guy from Boston that just came in. His name is Shane. He is a scrapper, man. I we offered him $5 an hour and he took it and he just run circles around everyone. Oh, where was I was out of that place immediately. It's like, you have to do more than required. Amen. And when you do that, you set a tone, just like what I were gonna circle right back and bookmark this son of a bitch and bookend it right here because what did I say in the beginning, there's only two words that come out of my mouth. frickin fantastic. And it's like, you set the bar high, and you always do more than is required.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:34
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life,

Shane Hurlbut 1:10:41
to be a good leader? That took me a long time. When I was a kid, I was bullied like crazy. They did horrible things to me as a kid. And it was so weird because my dad was bullied by the same individuals that that their dads, kids,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:04
Oh, Jesus, it's like a movie. It's like a movie for God's sakes.

Shane Hurlbut 1:11:07
Yeah, Jesus, it was crazy. It's like the Nolan's bullied my dad, and then their kids bullied me, it was it was insane. So when I came up the ladder, I had a chip on my shoulder I had I was somebody that just, you know, I was gonna get to the top. And I was going to take out some people on the way. And I, I was angry at times, I think I was, you know, somewhat talk down to people I didn't want I it was my way or the highway. And, you know, it took me a long time to realize that, that I need to lead much better. And that was it. Like I said, it took me probably 15 years to learn that. And that was way too long. And now, I have crews that will go to the end of the earth for me because I set the tone in a way that they are all part of the mission, and no one is talked down to and we are all in this together. And I try to wear my heart much more out on my sleeve. Because I had to bury it so far down, when I was bullied, I was just tortured so much that I just buried that heart, I buried that compassion, I buried all that, right. And now I finally have come out of my proverbial shell, and have really through the education. And this is a tested testament to my wife. Because I think really in 2009 and 2010, that 12 that was the linchpin to really start to be a better leader. And trust me, I've, I've failed even along that process in 2018, I failed on a movie. And I'll just want to be very transparent. These are things that you go through as a creative, you know, there's a lot of pressure on you, there's a lot of, you know, things that are brought to the forefront and and you need to understand how to unite that team and take care of that team and understand listen to that team, as well as listening to production and having their best interests at heart. And then listening to the director. I call it the 33.3. Because before it was 100%, whatever the director wanted. And that's where I was not a good leader, because no matter what the director said, I just made it happen. Even if I had to push it through a dime size hole. That thing was pushed. And now I look back at my career. And I was like, You know what, now I I see that. It's 33% is the director's vision. And 33 per cent is the production is taking care of them and their budget and making things work and not just, you know, say this is what the director wanted. This is what the director wanted. This is what the director wanted more like, Okay, how can we reach a compromise that that worked for production, and the director feels very good about and it's supporting your team, and being there for them and thinking about the safety, right? And especially in these COVID times, being scared down in Atlanta just recently, where they just kept getting, you know, for positive COVID every other day and not just shutting down. I'm like, Guys, the protocols aren't working. Everything that you've put in in practice is not working. The people that we've Tired, obviously, you're not understanding and either, because you don't go out to block parties with 1000s of people, and then go in and start working on the lead actors, right? This is not the way you move and push forward in this climate, right. And that's a mindset, the COVID, if it's taught me anything, we have to stop being the me generation. And we have to start becoming the way

it's thinking about everyone, and how your actions are going to affect everyone, not just yourself. And that was the biggest takeaway, I just saw everyone being so narcissistic, and whatever they wanted to do, if they wanted to go out and drink and party, it didn't matter that they were doing the hair and makeup on number one on the call sheet, they just did it. Well, that cannot happen. That's that's not the days are gone. In that regard. We need to think about everyone, and that compassion and caring of each individual. And I constantly, you know, what I never did is I never put myself in the shoes that I was barking the orders out to. And that biggest switch, for me, it's like, Okay, if I'm gonna bark these orders up to somebody, how is that going to feel if I'm the recipient of it? Am I going to feel good when I tell him me that, you know, I call him out in front of everyone. There's some times when you need to do that. But you want to do it in a way that has an inspirational way. And there's one way to downtrodden. But then there's another way to say, guy, I understand you're trying your best. But you've got to do better, like we had a digital utility that showed up three days late in a row. And you know, in a pool of many technicians, that guy would have been kicked to the side. And I just went up to him and I said, here's the deal. I see the passion that you had during our prep, I saw how much you read all the manuals and made all my systems that nobody knows how to work, you made that all happen. So I see that you love what you do. You can't be late. And I'm going to give you one more chance I've given you three. But what you need to do is you need to come in 30 minutes earlier. Because you know what? I'm here. I'm usually here an hour before the camera trucks even open up. Why? Why am I there, I'm taking my time I walked through the sets, I'm looking at the sheets, I'm envisioning the light, I'm envisioning the blocking and doing all that. So you come in an hour early, you open up the trucks, you get all the gear ready for everyone, you get my monitors all set up, you get the comm system set up. So when I walk in, and the crew walk in, you're handing everyone their comp system, and communication is key. And that dude turned around the next day. So it's like it's it's tough love at some points, but also caring and compassion and trying to inspire them by seeing their best attributes and and really kind of fueling that and then guiding them in a way that has some kid gloves

Alex Ferrari 1:18:33
as opposed to calling him out on set or or, you know, abusing him or yelling at him or, you know, how dare you jump off the Condor that's about to go into the ravine. Like instead of that that way of going about I still can't believe that story. I still can't believe that guy yelled at you like a Yuki I just dumped two stories. Are you kidding me? Now you're doing and that you know what you've said is absolutely right. And you know, when I direct I do the exact same thing. I try to be as cool as I can. But sometimes you do need tough love. And sometimes you got to pull somebody aside and give them a good talk into because attitude is attitude. Ego is ego, especially in

Shane Hurlbut 1:19:11
this business. Like one thing that I've always tried to do and I think this is the last bit of advice I want to give Chuck is you have to be humble. Amen, because arrogance and ego will drive you in ways that are not good. And I always try to be humble when I walk on set, you know, everyone comes up to me and they're like, Oh my god, Shane, you're a legend. You know, I bow you know that I get all this praise, which is awesome. But at the same time, I never let it go to my head. I'm, I'm sitting there talking to them about you know, what they did this weekend. And you know, they're they're part of my team. It's not me being the hierarchy even though that's how it's set up. But I treat everyone equally and I want them and I want it Toss gasoline on anything that they have passionate about, and and trying to kind of flip the switch to them, even the people that have come off to the oil dike or just come off the construction site, I'm trying to fill them with that filmmaking passion that I had when I came into film school and started to have these aha moments and everything. I'm trying to bring that to them through the hurlbut Academy and through, you know, just being unsent, as a cinematographer, as somebody that just wants to continue to educate the future filmmakers of tomorrow.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:35
Shane, I really appreciate you being on the show, man. And it has been a fantastic conversation. I appreciate everything you're doing for the community, with your education, as well as just making cool films over the last the last year. So I appreciate what you do my friend Keep, keep doing what you do. So thanks so much, my friend.

Shane Hurlbut 1:20:53
Oh, thank you so much, Alex, it was an absolute pleasure. And I loved your questions right on the money. This is this is the kind of stuff that you know, I want to open up I currency with me. And that's what I think people really respond to as well. I, like I said, staying humble, I'm not using my ego and arrogance to say, this is who I am. And this is what I do know, I've failed a lot. And I've not been a great leader at times. And you know, I want to you know, express those and say that I I'm I change and even though that I met my 57 years old I'm I still feel like I'm a five year old out there and and absolutely love what I do. And, you know, I I've created a long successful career as a cinematographer. And I want to keep on going, my friend,

Alex Ferrari 1:21:41
I appreciate you. Thank you.

Shane Hurlbut 1:21:43
All right. Take care.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 393: David Fincher & The Art of Cinematography with Oscar Nominee Jeff Cronenweth

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

  • Jeff Cronenweth – IMDB

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Jeff Cronenweth how're you doing, Jeff?

Jeff Cronenweth 0:14
I'm excellent. Alex, thanks for having me on.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thank you so much for being on the show. Man. I've, I've been a fan of yours for a long time because I am a lens geek. I am. I'm a DP geek, in the sense of how, look, things look and stuff like that. And I've studied your work as a director and as a colorist, for a long, long, long time. Especially the work you've done with music videos, your stuff with Fincher yourself with Romanic Romana grazer as Mark Romanek. I pronounce it right.

Jeff Cronenweth 0:50
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 0:51
All that kind of stuff. So before we jump into the weeds with you, man, how did you get started in the business?

Jeff Cronenweth 0:58
Well, true nepotism, if you will, but longer story than that my great grandfather owned a camera store in Pittsburgh. My grandfather was a portrait still photographer for the studios on staff at Columbia Well, throughout his career, various studios, but they used to have an Oscar category for still photography, you have to put yourself in that era and realize like the technology prevented him to take it from taking pictures next to us on set, like, like people do nowadays. And so they had their own sets and directed the talent and built the sets. And that was the sole source of publicity for you know, the entire movie, so there was more weight on that and so he won an Oscar for action still photographer, the picture of Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney and 1941 and, and then my father, who's Jordan Crona with shot Blade Runner amongst Blade Runner Peggy Sue Got Mallard altered state state of grace, you know. And then including, Oh, Father music video with with Fincher and Rattle and Hum with with Phil's Juana. And so I always had been around it from early age, you know, visiting the set and just loved the camaraderie and the kind of common goal of accomplishing or overcoming that day's complications. And it just seemed like a great team creative sport to me. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew I wanted to do something in it. You know, it's like, every morning, they went to war, and every day, at the end of the day, they came back and kind of celebrate the victory of that day. So it was intriguing to me. And so I followed in his footsteps, you know, I went to, I started a junior college, and there was an opportunity with the goal of going to USC film school, and there was an opportunity to get into the Union. So my dad called and said, stop going to school right now come join. It was very difficult in those days to get in. And so I went and worked for about two years as a staff loader at a commercial company in Hollywood. The debate at the moment, in our family at that time was he was about to start Blade Runner. I was 19 years old. It was a very high scrutinized movie. It was the only going on on in town. Ridley Scott's first movie in United States there was all kinds of tensions on the set. It was a lot of nights when wet, you know, and he thought that it was a crapshoot. If I if I went for that, that I would get into the IA instead he said, you're better chances are of going working at this stuff as a staff loader at this company. And if no one's available in 30 days, you get in and then you learn all about camera gear. And so I didn't do Blade Runner. But quite honestly, you know, at 19 That movie was really a handful. And I think i i Instead I ended up like prepping five camera shows a day for commercials have different packages and distributor ups. And you know, I, of course what I love to have had a blade runner on my resume. Instead, I just went after work every day and watched until I got tired and went home.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
So you actually weren't you were on the set. You were actually hanging out watching your father where

Jeff Cronenweth 4:30
I was on a set as much as I could. Yeah, oh, I was working in Studio City. And they were at Warner Brothers on the backlot. So it was quite close. And then and then after I got in and after work for a year, I went back to college and graduated from film school at USC and in my class was Phil's wanna Robert Brinkman. John Schwartzman. We can go on but there was a few of us that all stayed friends three of us became DPS. Phil went on to dreck and he directed a movie that you know my dad shot state of grace, amazing looking, authentic looking movie for that for that period. And and then I worked for Phil for years after that, you know shooting commercials and music videos and all kinds of things. So I kind of went that and then I went the Craftsman route, you know? Like it's a great segue because Robert and Robert Brinkman and John and John Schwartzman came out and music videos are just starting to materialize. And so they shot a lot of a corporate moving industrials, we call them sure and learned, learned by making their own mistakes, but actually shooting. I did it the other way. I was a film voter and then I was a second assistant. And then I was a first assistant and I was a camera operator. But the sets I was working on were the biggest sets going at the time, you know, and so I watched, or the idea was that I would watch master solve problems. I wish I paid more attention later. But

Alex Ferrari 6:02
An't that Ain't that the truth?

Jeff Cronenweth 6:05
Like, man, how would he have solved this problem? And so you know, I had a had a great like I worked with, with my dad, of course, and John tall, and Laszlo and Gordon Willis and high school, and Bill most and I did eight movies with spend Nyquist, and, and they all they all had different styles and different personalities. But they all had the same kind of low key, not insecure, listen to anybody that had a good idea wasn't threatened, great camaraderie on the set, great control and set management. And so I was very fortunate to learn and watch all them. Ironically, Schwartzman and brakeman probably beat me by a couple years, until I was shooting the same size movies that they were shooting. But but we all got to the same place. So you know, there, I guess at the end of that long story, there's not really one way better than the other way. For me, I think we're individuals for me. I needed to mature more and watch and learn slowly. And but there is no, there is no replacement for hands on doing it yourself. So it's a combination of both.

Alex Ferrari 7:20
Yeah, I think it's also there's a lost art of The Apprentice. I mean, the apprentice I mean, that's the only way when I was coming up in the 90s. I mean, that's how I learned I was on set, I was learning behind someone who had done it before. And there is still that obviously, in the camera department specifically. But it's not as is not the apprenticeship is not something that is as done as much as it used to be. It's kind of like a lost art almost like all this. I mean, you just did laid out years of work, you know, working a couple years in in a camera shop, the amount of knowledge you got about those film cameras back then. I mean, you when you finally got on set, you were like, Yeah, I know that. I know that I know how to do that, because you've done it all. But so many DPS nowadays. It's just like, well, I got a RED camera, I'm a DP.

Jeff Cronenweth 8:09
And there is truth to that. But I fear there's no history behind the choices being made. Do you need it? Um, no, I suppose you can just make pretty pictures. And that's fine. But there's a lot of logic about where where the industry came from why we compose or photograph things a certain way, in continuity, which is a hard thing to learn. Because it's really easy to shoot a pretty master, it's really hard to do two days of coverage of that master to make it look like that same two minutes of time, but make each shot stand out and be beautiful. And that's what separates the men from the boys or from the adults from the children, if you will. And so that's something that that's harder to deal with. And then, you know, managing a crew is a lot of have been successful on the set, and dealing with studios and figuring out how to navigate through the complexity of that and egos and personalities. And, you know, getting what you need to get to visually support the movie the way you want to support it. So those are all things that I would not trade for anything and that I see could be something that's more challenging for young filmmakers that don't go that route. Yeah, that said that said when I was a when I went to USC, there was no internet and there was no downloading cable and there was no DVDs. And there was no VHS I don't think let me know that. There had to be tested.

Alex Ferrari 9:37
When what year were they just started

Jeff Cronenweth 9:40
82. But what I'm what my point is, you had to go to a place like that in order to see all the classic movies and review them and talk about them and dissect them. You couldn't just click on something and watch a scene. It didn't exist. If you were lucky. There might be a midnight show and some off off You know, small Theater in Hollywood, you can go watch a classic film. And so learning that and that history and that knowledge was something that today, you can click on a movie, you can dissect that movie, you can look at a particular scene that you want, you can count the frames, you can analyze the train. And usually there's a whole lot of discussion from either the director or somebody else on the on the, on the show that describes what happened and why it happened in those things. So in a way, you know, it doesn't replace doing it yourself. That's the thing. Like no matter what you read, or write or learn, or watch, you still got to make films and you still got a photograph, and you still gotta try to cut things together and find out why it works and doesn't. But that was the reason that it was so important at that time. And nowadays, I think there's such a enormous amount of resources available to filmmakers, that it does shortcut at some degree. Right?

Alex Ferrari 10:54
Yeah. Because I mean, yeah, I remember, in the 80s, there's like, there was nothing about filmmaking like nothing. You couldn't even you had the occasional Star Wars making of or Raiders of the Lost Ark making of VHS. And then you had criterion laser discs. And that was,

Jeff Cronenweth 11:09
That was later than LaserDisc.

Alex Ferrari 11:11
I'm talking about like, 88 to 92. And that world is when those came out. But in the early 80s, there was you got to go to libraries, and go like find books about what you are you apprenticed or you're apprenticed.

Jeff Cronenweth 11:23
And if you remember, there was like, one bookstore in Hollywood, and bookstore

Alex Ferrari 11:28
Ohh god. Yeah. Or French, French, French, something French. Yeah, it was over in Studio City. They just shut that they shut down a little while ago.

Jeff Cronenweth 11:36
It was an old one I in Hollywood as well. There's the one in Studio City off of Lankershim was Laurel Canyon, which you're talking Exactly, yeah. And those had a plethora of, of dusty film books that you can go and, and learn about, you know, a director that you you know, you're like that Right, right. Now, now you either just you download the book on your iPad, or you order the book on Amazon, or whatever you do. And it's all right there at your fingertips. So it's different, but it's still doing it. Getting a camera in your hand and doing it is ultimately what it is. It doesn't matter what the camera is, whether it's your iPhone or a camera, it's still telling stories starts there. And that's what you got to do.

Alex Ferrari 12:18
Now, one of your great collaborators of your career is Mr. David Fincher, who I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of Mr. Fincher. And I yeah, he's, he's, he's our generations, Kubrick, in my opinion, and the way he makes his films, specifically Fight Club, is anytime anyone asked me my top three fight clubs, I was on the on the top of that list. I've had Jim rules on the show who wrote Fight Club. And I got to find out first of all, how did you meet David? And you've done a few things prior to your music? You did a bunch of music videos as well. How did you meet him? And what is the working relationship? Like how do you work with David Fincher in 1995 versus David Fincher Gone Girl?

Jeff Cronenweth 13:03
Yeah, those are all great questions. I met him fortunately, through my dad, we did a we did a music video called Oh, Father with Madonna. It was the last video on that that album. And it was a black and white video. I remember it kind of alluded to a not great relationship with a celebrity actor that we all know. And, and we met on that. And then we did a couple commercials. And one of them. was at&t all about the what to expect in the future. And

Alex Ferrari 13:40
I remember, I remember that campaign.

Jeff Cronenweth 13:42
Yeah. they just have like a 20 year or 30 years? Yeah, yeah, remember that? rewatching of it, because it was so accurate. You know, it had an iPad, a pad, which we had never seen before. We didn't we wouldn't come to fruition for another 20 years or 15 years. But we had a guy and I with an iPad on a beach and in St. Yes, yeah. And toll booths that were operator list, you just had a sensor and I remember all these Yeah, a shot of a baby monitor with a dad somewhere else looking at the baby, and classroom with a computer and a projector that had the kids are all working off of laptops. And it was really clever, as you would expect with David, and they wanted to shoot they could only afford to shoot it here in Santa Monica at the beach scene and he just felt like it didn't have the weight to support the concept. So he took me and, and the ad and his producer and we went to St. John. And, and, you know, he told me Well, me go back one step. After the Madonna video he gave he gives me a call and goes I need to shoot an insert of Madonna's teeth with stitches and pearls dropping on the floor. And Panavision said they let us do it and I go great, you guys Meet me at Patterson had to go good. And he goes, bring your meters. I'm like what? meters, I'm gonna focus baller. And so when he goes, this is what I want to do match your dad's light. And he left and I'm like, Oh, God, and I lit it, and it all cut in, you know, it was great. The way it all fit together, and, and then he asked me to shoot this thing in St. John with him. Then I shot second unit on the game. I shot second unit on seven. I was in London with my dad. And when we started aliens three, but the studio, my dad had Parkinson's disease, he was working right through it. And, you know, truth be told there was a lot of animosity about foreigners being there at the time, you know, the film industry was dead. They wanted it all, you know, crew from from London, not just not just the Brits, the production company wanted at Fox wanted it. Everybody wanted it all to be local. And so we went and they felt as the scale of the movie got bigger, he wouldn't be able to keep up. So we got let go. And David heartbroken said, Listen, if you guys aren't here, it's just me, it's an easier armwrestling match for me because they don't have you to hold over my head and, and it'll just be me up against them. And so it was his first show and stuff. So all those things, were building a relationship. And then, of course, the game. And then and then he caught me too. He called me when he had Fight Club, and said, Come come over, and I went over to his house. And he's like this, you know, Brad, Brad jumped the wall the other night and knocked on my door, said you got to read this book and then sat there while I while I read it, he wouldn't leave until I finish that. And so I think it's a these are his words, I think it might be the best movie, he gets to act, and it would probably be the best movie I direct. And it may not make any movie and may not make any money. Uh, but read this and tell me what you think. And if you're interested in shooting them like the answer before he finished the sentence. But of course, I played it like you wouldn't like okay, and, you know, danced all the way to my car. And then read it, of course and was in love with it. I didn't know how we were going to shoot it. It was very complicated script and so much going on, is quite overwhelming at first. And I think a lot of us weren't 100% confident in how it'd be received until it got closer to being finished. You know, because it was such an interesting story. And David had a really had, in his mind, the tempo and the cadence of B and, and the nuances that that were pushing boundaries that we were all like, kind of like, I mean, that's what you want, of course, because you want to ruffle some feathers along the way. Right.

Alex Ferrari 18:03
No, no question. But it's really interesting, because I mean, you know, talking to Jim, I mean, that is an that's an on mapable book. That's an it's an adaptable book, first of all, so that the script was even made is remarkable that the script is almost unfilmable. I mean, you read the Fight Club script. It's like, how, and then the you guys actually pulled it off in the way that you did. I mean, it was it was a it's a masterwork. And I remember when it came on to theater, I saw it in the theater. And it wasn't, it is aged very well. It was not as well received. And it didn't make a whole lot of cash. When it came out.

Jeff Cronenweth 18:41
It's funny. We shot all these great commercials that were as irreverent as the movie was, you know, like Brad standing in a movie theater. Going, in case of emergency. The lights will light up on either side of the roads, here are the two exits. And remember, don't let anybody touch you in the bathing suit area. And, you know, Columbine had happened that summer before and so everybody was quite aware of violence. And so the idea was not to market the film as a fighting film, but because it's really not those are metaphors and sure, different things. But uh they didn't do it, you know, he didn't have he didn't have the publicity control at that point in his career. And they, you know, they put out all this fight footage, and, you know, my parents went to see it, because I made it but they thought it was a boxing movie, you know, based off function.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
It's called Fight Club. Yeah, that's exactly the way they marketed it. Yeah.

Jeff Cronenweth 19:45
And that's what they that's what they showed in the in the trailers and stuff. And so that was unfortunate. It did not work. It was a flop. But ironically, in that first meeting, Fincher was like, I want this to be Our generations Blade Runner in that it describes what the 90s kind of what what it feels like to be in the 90s. And and in Blade Runner was a failure when it came out as well. You know, it wasn't until 10 years later, five years later that it blew up. And the same thing when when the DVDs for fightclub came out, oh my God, it was enormous. And then it became a cult film. And then both both, both Blade Runner and fight club are in the National Archives. Right? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 20:31
So to go back for a second, that moment when David said, Hey, match your dad's lighting on this, these close ups. If you wouldn't have done a good job there. A lot of your career might have not gone the same way. Just that one is a possibility, right? Like if you would have screwed up that day, or didn't have the knowledge base to be able to do that, from all those years of working hard. Just for that one shot. And David, I think at that point, David, David was still I mean, David was David in the commercial world, like he propaganda was up and running. And you know, he was a big he was a big deal in the commercial world. So it's just it's fascinating that that one moment, I just, I just go back. I'm like, if he would have screwed up that, does he call him again? Does he does he ask him to do another video?

Jeff Cronenweth 21:21
He would call my dad so we would have worked together again, but I don't know that he would have had the trust in me to to do what later came, you know,

Alex Ferrari 21:28
Right. No, exactly. Can you can you explain to people what it's like, what was like shooting music videos and commercials in the 90s? Because that's my that's my sweet. That's my decade. I went to film school during that decade. And I actually had my one of my good friends was the vault operator propaganda. And he would send me VHS of David's reels. This is pre internet. You know, this is before everything was so I could watch him and Michael Bay and Spike Jones and Fuqua and all so he would send me these compilation reels of all this stuff. I saw like I saw the game promos, before anyone saw the game promos like that, with that, that moquette What is it the puppet flying in the air and all that stuff? So I was I was really deep into propaganda, specifically Fincher and like, how can you explain to people what is like, with those budgets? With that, I mean, it was an insane time for music videos.

Jeff Cronenweth 22:21
It was fantastic. Because there was a bunch of very young filmmakers that were unbridled, and you you each, each job, each song that came up, someone was trying to do something that hadn't been done before or a different perspective on it. And you would watch that you're like, Oh, my God, how do that or you know, like Jake Scott shooting entire video backwards in reverse. Yeah, or shooting on Super Eight or shooting, you know, Harris vetus baking film, for a whole video, you know, so that it all had all the kind of warping, textures too, and everything. So it was a it was a wild west of shooting and almost anything went but there was an enormous amount of competition. And people, very creative people, you know, competing against each other. And so the budgets at that time this is pre Napster. So the videos were generating enormous amount of income and sales, record sales. And so the budgets were enormous, you know, I I, Harris betas photograph screen, but I operated in shot second unit on screen. And the screen, you know, is at least if it's not the top, it's right there at 7.2 million. With Janet and Michael Feathers.

Alex Ferrari 23:40
It was I think the bitonal was expensive at the time, I think still is.

Jeff Cronenweth 23:44
It might be Yeah, I don't know. But the budgets were incredible, you know, 1,000,002 million 500,007 50. All all were reasonable budgets. But the quality of the work was really, really interesting. And the ideas were new and fresh and interpreting different musicians and, you know, rap was just coming in and, and so you had the hip hop, you had hip hop before rap, and then you had you know, Jana and Miko, and Madonna and Bowie and George Michael, and you just had a lot of interesting artists that were all blooming at the same time. And the good ones like Madonna and Michael and Jana, they took the videos very serious. You know, there was a lot artists that were young and, um, they'd be hungover that so five hours late and you're looking just going, you know, this isn't for me.

Alex Ferrari 24:43
Like, this is gonna be out there forever.

Jeff Cronenweth 24:46
So you do you run out of money if you show up or don't show up today. So, you know, so there was a big difference between like, people dedicated and you know, they always had interesting concepts with good stories. that were that that did the songs justice, but weren't just like a band playing on a pedestal somewhere, you know, looked it up. And so it was really quite amazing and exciting. You know, I, I think I shot maybe 350 music videos or something, something that degree that's insane.

Alex Ferrari 25:20
Like when you did something like, you know freedom with George Michael like, which was a revolutionary music video because he wasn't in it. Yeah. And David and you put that together. I mean that's I still Well, first of all, it's an amazing song. But like the explosions of the of the, like the explosions on the on the base hit and things like that with the guitars blowing up and the jacket blowing up. I mean, it's just it's just, it's for people that weren't around during that time. I mean, I was working in Miami in the Miami market. And you know, we're Gloria Estefan. And all those guys were and they they were getting million million and a half dollar budget. Second and third tier artists, were getting 250 to 500. And I was working on those. I was like, can you imagine that today? Doesn't make

Jeff Cronenweth 26:07
I still do maybe one or two a year? Yeah. I love them. But, you know, I don't go out and seek it out. But they come one or two a year. And so it's like the last couple have been the Taylor Swift, Terry, Maroon Five, and they always have a fair amount of money to do it. Right. Right. Now, what changed? What changed a few years ago, is they figured out how to monetize the videos, you think again, and and the videos and kids by downloads of the music videos. So the videos have, not only are they presenting the song, but they buy them to watch over and over again. And so, you know, it'll never be what it was, of course, but, you know, it could come back to some degree where where you have decent budgets to, to make, to make videos that make statements and really promote an artist.

Alex Ferrari 26:59
Yeah, because now I mean, you throw up, you throw it up on YouTube, and you just monetize it on YouTube and you got a billion views, that's a it's a pretty nice chunk of change that's gonna come into your pocket or to the studio or the the labels pocket, but whoever's paying, so there is way there are ways still now where some of these artists even just naming every time they've dropped a video, it's 100 200 500 million, billion, you know, watches. So it can it can't happen but, but like the the, I mean, nobody names like second third tier X, having half a million dollars, those days are gone. Those days are definitely gone. Now. Speaking of music videos, you also worked with another, you know Trailblazer with Mark Romanek, who I'm also a huge fan of and his work with him. What is what is the how you also shot his film, one hour photo, which I absolutely adored with, with the late great Robin Williams, how did you approach that film? Because the look of it is so Oh, God, it just feels like there's that that fluorescent light coming down on you. And you just feel off? Watching it? How did you approach that creatively with him?

Jeff Cronenweth 28:11
It was a, it was a baby movie, in in comparison to fight club, budget wise, you know? Sure. And so there was certain strategies and things that you had to do that because you had to be financially responsible, and you had limited resources. But the wonderful thing about that movie for me, and what what I loved about it is it had three worlds that he lived in, it had the store, which was his safe place, his ethereal place where he was God, and he could view these people's lives and make judgments and then react. And then there was their house, the family he was obsessed with, which is very warm and loving. And at least on the surface as we as we find out later. And then his his cold and industrial apartment that he lives in that was void of personality, except for the wall of other people's likes that he made, right. And so that gave me three distinct worlds to light differently, you know, within that budget, and that was really fun to do. And the thing that I love the most is, you know, you're going to be in a store. And Mark really wanted it to feel overlap in the sense that it's coming from the top and it's a you know, big, big big box store. And so I couldn't I couldn't I I'm not necessarily a fan of top light, just don't like what it does in general to people's faces, but we created these fixtures that you could look at and see a little bit of light, but they weren't they didn't really have an impact coming down, but they shot up and we painted the ceiling white, and so it all was bounced softlight off the ceiling, the gate kind of ethereal glow in there. And then you go back and you can analyze it. And that's like, that's his heaven. And that's his world. And this is this and the lights coming down from there. But it was really, this is this beautiful, I mean, that all fit into the story. But it was this beautiful, soft light. So you took this really industrial building and made it something that was prettier, but still had the personality that Mark wanted reflected and, you know, visually to match the story. And so that was, you know, we bought all these old fixtures in from the salvage company and then cut holes in them and put them up and, and made those work and then shot in that store. You know, what was rather trying? Was, we shot in there for the first two weeks, I think, or three weeks, right? And so you want to you know, it's okay, to have to have, you want a balance to the movie, you want up and downs, light and dark shadows and things that are that you can't see. And going to dailies for the first like 16 days, all that footage was in that store. And it was all this white, low contrast thing. I was losing my mind. I'm like, What am I shooting this is like, there's nothing to balance again. But then of course, once we got out, we started getting into the other worlds and I was able to manipulate contrast and light and have direction now as opposed to top and stuff. It really like it really balanced out the movie, and it has a really cool look for it. And I definitely serve the story.

Alex Ferrari 31:36
No, you just brought something to my to my mind when you said contrast. I mean a movie like Fight Club, and seven that you did second unit. But on Fight Club. The contrast is so big. I mean, it's just beautiful. And that was kind of like a telltale Fincher ask thing. He loves blacks. He loves to go deep into the blacks. How much of that was? Was that all in camera? And then you tweaked it a little bit in the lab? Because in 99 Did they the I wasn't di hadn't come out yet. Oh, Brother Where Art then come out. Yeah, right. Right. That was lab. So that was shot that was in camera and lab work that got that insanely crisp and just pristine look, right?

Jeff Cronenweth 32:19
Yeah, yeah. Then that was straight up. There was no cross processing or any of the things that they had done on seven. Right, it was straight up. So the way we shot it, it's terrifying.

Alex Ferrari 32:31
Oh, yeah. Because you're on the edge. And that's the thing. Yeah. When you work with David, I'm assuming you're always on the edge. On a lot of things. I mean, the same thing with a girl with a dragon tattoo and social network.

Jeff Cronenweth 32:42
I'll tell you a little story. Yeah, but don't, don't lose your train of thought. It was my first feature as the as the main DP, right. So it was a big,

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Not a bad one to start with

Jeff Cronenweth 32:52
Not a bad one. I put more pressure on myself then then David or the studio did, because I was so I didn't want to fail him, I had so much respect for him that I didn't want to be the one loose like, you know, the bolt in the entire ship. So we were shooting a scene of Ed Norton with insomnia, laying in bed wide awake, overhead shot. And we had had the sheets tea stained. In other words, they took the white some of the bright white off the sheets. But it wasn't, it wasn't the level we wanted it to. And so we were really struggling with, like, making it feel like nighttime, being dark enough, still seeing him but not having these glowing white sheets. And he kept going. It's too bright. I'm like, David, it's not to write anymore. It's we're getting really close to not going to be an image there. He's like, it's two rights to write. And we shot it and it was too dark. And I was like, I was already like, oh, okay, that's it. Well, when they come looking for the guy to blame all I'm done, and I'm out of here and all that. And the next day is like, Well, you're right, we push too hard, we'll shoot it again tomorrow. And, and he looked at me, he goes, Listen, if we're not making mistakes every once in a while, then we're not pushing boundaries, we were in a safe zone that nobody wants to be in and we're not that's not what we're here to do. We're here to change things and push things and break boundaries and, and not repeat ourselves. And so it's only money. It's a big movie, we've scheduled time for things that don't work out and we'll shoot it again another day. And that was that kind of has served me to this day because you put it in perspective. You know, if you're doing something where it doesn't have a lot of money and you're risking losing a scene, that that's being irresponsible, but if you're pushing the boundaries and you're taking advantage of everything that you have and you and you are going for it it's okay to make that mistake now and then

Alex Ferrari 34:48
No question I mean because I mean looking at fightclub You know, I saw it in the theater and then seeing it on Blu ray and 4k and all that kind of stuff. Maybe you are on the edge because a lot of people don't understand like they look I'm like, Oh, they just fixed that in the computer. I'm like, no, no, this is old school. This is lab work. And like, craft, you know, because now you could choose something down the middle and gain a really crisp and crush the blacks and all that stuff in di much easier than you could back back then. So you actually were You were playing with stops? You were like, Am I Am I too far gone. Because you can only push a pole in the lab so much before the image is gone, and you don't have anything?

Jeff Cronenweth 35:32
Well, the thing that everybody has to appreciate is, in those days, you, when you went to the lab, when you're when you're color correcting a movie, you had red, green, and blue, and you had light and dark. That's it. No contrast, no other color

Alex Ferrari 35:47
No power windows, no power windows,

Jeff Cronenweth 35:49
And no stopping it, you know, there's a footage counter at the bottom of the screen. And you're sitting in there with you know, a guy that's been working in the lab for 40 years, he's got a piece of paper and a pencil, and you're going, okay 524, it's two points to green and 1.2 bright, and he writes it down and two other shots go by. And now you got to watch it over again and go, okay, and you have to keep doing this and keep doing this and keep doing this, you know, it's not like, stop, look at it. Bring up the shot before it. Let's look at those side by side do that. Yeah, let's add contrast, let's have 1000 shades of pink that we can now add or take away. Let's do this, and this and this. So it's a different world. Now, in all fairness, audiences are far more mature or educated than they were then than they were eight years ago. And so the expectations and the critical eye is all that much stronger. So I kind of feel like the technologies kept up with the audiences and the audiences expect a certain amount. And this technology affords us to go that much more in that direction. You know, it's really hard to to get away with something rudimentary when kids grew up watching Game of Thrones.

Alex Ferrari 37:04
Right, like you've watched it, that's a TV show, what TV shows that we have different strokes.

Jeff Cronenweth 37:11
Hill Street Blues isn't, you know, they were really Three's Company.

Alex Ferrari 37:15
Right! Like we were raised in television in the 80s. And you still Game of Thrones? Like are you kidding? So yeah, now, now that everyone's expecting so much more. So the game has, you have to take your game up to that to that level,

Jeff Cronenweth 37:31
You can stop a frame on your computer and analyze it. You know, shots have to match because they can go back and forth and look where before there was reciprocity, which is our human brain processing the image going by that you know, you think you match that to that shot, but God forbid you ever put them side by side? I bet they're, you know, the master. I bet Godfather doesn't have as many shots that are perfect as we all think it does.

Alex Ferrari 37:54
Oh my god. I mean, he did that the prince of darkness. Mr. Willis. I mean,

Jeff Cronenweth 37:58
No, no disrespect. I'm just saying like they didn't

Alex Ferrari 38:00
No I mean, I mean that in a good way. I mean, in a good way, like keep talking about pushing

Jeff Cronenweth 38:04
Did with that. Jesus. Unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 38:08
Oh my God, you look at godfather to you just like how did you have the balls to expose our Pachino on a Francis for a couple of movie on the sequel? The Godfather? That frickin low like you could barely see him and the mastery to get to that. I mean, he's literally a cough away from it not being exposed. It was it's just it's mashed. It's a masterwork. It's a it's a Master,

Jeff Cronenweth 38:35
I tell you what's missing from that, that that that was so great about it, my father and all and Conrad and all of them did it is they shot to a degree where there was no turning back. So that's what the movie is going to look like. arbitrator coming in, hey, you know what that's too too bright or too dark, or I need to open it up. You can open it up, it's it's gonna go milky, and it's gonna look really bad. So you have to live with what they did you know. And that's the drawback from the technology today is, you know, I can color correct a movie for three weeks. And when I walk away, there's nothing stopping someone from going in and dialing a knob. And all of a sudden, that's not what I thought it was. Now, most studios don't do that. But I've had occasions where I've left and people have made changes, which is a problem.

Alex Ferrari 39:21
Yeah, and exactly. There's when I was a colorist for 15 years, so I know, oh, I know, my friend. Listen, I, I sit there and I always try to work with the DP and the DP. You'd be in the room. But then when he left the producer who's paying me he's like, Okay, I need you to open this up a little bit more. It's just a little too dark. I'm like, Oh, God, what do I do? Like you're like, This is the dude that's paying me like, What do I What do I do? So there is there's this weird place but you're absolutely right. Nowadays you as as as the DP you don't have nearly the control that you did back then like when when your dad shot Blade Runner it was what it was, like they weren't going to tweak it.

Jeff Cronenweth 39:58
That's it. Like, you got what you got?

Alex Ferrari 40:01
So So going back, you know, we were talking about, you know, working on other films like social network and grow with the Dragon Tattoo. Social Network is interesting because first of all is is a masterwork man. Seriously, it is. so beautifully shot and you were using a red one.

Jeff Cronenweth 40:21
Red one, but we had the mysterium X chip, which was the new chip, you know, right. He had a SATA burghead taught Fincher into checking out red he had used among che, right? Yeah. And, and we were David and I were looking at, you know, we went through testing all the different cameras and stuff. And read was, you know, Soderbergh says, Let's try these new cameras. Try this new sensor, I think you'll love it. And we went and met Jim Dennard and Jared land, you know, they were down in Orange County at that time. And so we went down there and looked at the cameras and the footage, and then the new set, sir, and it was absolutely beautiful. And then they started asking what we want to change on those cameras, or what we need on this movie that isn't available. And we had all those rowing scenes, you know, on those years. What are they called mocker boats, I think there's something like they're super fragile, lightweight, and you can't overload them, you know, they're not met Matt to carry anything other than the guys rowing and stuff. And so they made us a carbon fiber camera body that weighed like, six pounds, red red one with a chip. And they made this and they made that and it started this relationship that Fincher and I have enjoyed, you know, since that film, were on social network. That was a that was the mystery max on Dragon Tattoo. That was the epic Sure. All prototypes, like you know, wires hanging out and open backs but Gone Girl was the dragon. I think so. Yeah. And so on, you know, and then he had the Xenomorph on Mindhunter, which was was meant to be handheld. But they ended up not not utilizing that style. But those were those ergonomic cameras that kind of looked like a little bit like Alien.

Alex Ferrari 42:21
I saw that. Yeah, they made that special for him. They call that

Jeff Cronenweth 42:24
Yeah, and everything was like the motors that drive the lenses you had to pick you know, is meant for like a glass. So the like Similac C's all have the same size. And so the motors were attached and no cables and all all these kind of nuances that over the years have evolved. And now you know, last year they did manque and that was monochrome which he had asked for originally for commercial

Alex Ferrari 42:50
It was I didn't he did the Justin Timberlake music video with that too.

Jeff Cronenweth 42:53
Before that he did. He did I know he did a black and white oh god what's it for? You did one with Rooney Mara. That was for some free?

Alex Ferrari 43:04
Oh yeah. I remember that. Yeah, that that

Jeff Cronenweth 43:09
Even before that there was something and then I had shot I did these Levi spots with them that are you know, all with the monochrome. And so he got they made Rangers which was the newest sensor but made the monochrome for Mank. And, and now

Alex Ferrari 43:28
So as a cinematographer, this is heaven you basically go into the toy shop and you go out with like this, I would like that, can you make this for me and they literally custom build the need for your projects

Jeff Cronenweth 43:41
Extremely supportive and helpful. And so yeah, and so i i The last film that I shot, it was on the Ranger but I use the Aerie DNA glass and I you know they tell me that I'm the first person to do that for the day because they had tried to keep it mostly restricted to using with the Aerie cameras and stuff, but then they open the doors a little bit and so I shot being the Ricardos with the 70 mil DNA primes that you know like from the Joker and different things and then the Red Ranger with the full sensor AK so

Alex Ferrari 44:19
I want to talk well I want to talk about the Ricardos because ya know it's it's it's stunning. On social network. There's two shots I have to ask you about the one is if you can and they're they're pretty they're pretty well known shot so I'm sure you can get them on the on the is it was it in? I'm thinking is the overhead shot on top of the buildings is that social network or am I confusing that with Matt

Jeff Cronenweth 44:48
Is with Jesse Eisenberg running through the heart.

Alex Ferrari 44:51
Yeah, and it's just like stays there and that the camera fought like it's attached to him almost it looks like and how the hell do you do that?

Jeff Cronenweth 45:00
That was a solution to the problem that Harvard generally doesn't allow you to shoot movies on their campuses, especially a movie that's doesn't put them in great light, because the infighting between all the students and then of course, the chancellor or the chairman. At So, we had to figure out a way that we could shoot a shot without moving the camera, but we wanted to do a pan and scan within the camera, because we had to leave the cameras locked off so that we could shoot when the sky changed, we could get the depth of the campus, we could get all the detail of the buildings in the background. And then we would tie all that together into a move. And so we put three cameras up there Frame to Frame to Frame and let Jesse Jesse run it, it was the only it's like the only building in Cambridge that's not part owned by the university. So we picked that point in the corner and had him run by he ran by the oldest arch going into the campus, which is you know, if you know anything about Harvard is a famous archway that goes into the campus. And it's pitch black, you know, there's like, I changed like I, I had the city fix all the streetlights on both both streets that you see. And then I put light bulbs on the back of the poles that you couldn't see that made down like the he could run in and out of these pools of light. And then we had this dilemma of not like the archway needed to be backlit for us to see it when he runs by it. And so we kept coming up with scenarios like I was like, let's rent like a fake power truck, go on campus, like we're fixing something and just use the bright headlights and stuff and a little thing on and, and no one will bother us because they'll think that, you know, you're fixing something with the power company. Fincher came up with this idea of making a battery cart light that was all self contained, and hiring a mind. And so the mind would take the cart onto campus behind the RTA turn on the light, and then start mining. The idea is that anybody would come around with think that he's lying to himself, they'd watch for 10 minutes, even if the cops came, he would do his whole thing where he's like, I can't hear you. And, and so we did that. Got the shot, we you know, we lit the archway from on campus with a mind and then tiled that shot, to get him to run through.

Alex Ferrari 47:34
So you so so basically, you I don't like to use the word stole the shot, but you stole the shot. Essentially,

Jeff Cronenweth 47:41
You stole the light source, light source,

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Which is amazing that a film, and the people involved with the film like social network would need to pull those kinds of indie moves to get the shot. But that's but that's the reality of the world.

Jeff Cronenweth 47:58
That's the way it works. You know, that's the great thing about film school is you're always borrowing and stealing and trying to whatever you can, you know, into it. And honestly, that kind of happens on commercials and music videos and everything. You have to kind of like go out and be aggressive to make sure you you get everything that you all the parts that you need to make the story.

Alex Ferrari 48:20
That's amazing. Now the other shot that I love, and it's is the rowing, the rowing sequence, the one with Trent's amazing score. What is the technique to make everything look so small? I know there's it's a photographic technique, but can you explain it to the audience how you got that shot? Because when I saw it, I was just like, wow, that's I haven't seen this in a film before.

Jeff Cronenweth 48:43
Yeah, two things. One, we were only given like an hour and a half to shoot in the area where the regard actually happens. And so we had to shoot some finish line stuff, and this and that, and then we had to get out of there. And so we were up river more from that, and it didn't look exactly the same. And so to avoid any of the matching issues, the idea of this shallow depth of field, super dramatic. And we had seen it on YouTube, where they done like shipyards, miniatures, and you see it moving, you're like, is that a model? Or is that real? It's gorgeous. It's just a matter of lenzing and shallow depth of field and perspective. And so we did that and it solved a lot of problems for us and and super energetic in the in the sense that it adds tension and kind of confusion to this race. So you don't know who's winning when or where and the energy keeps up. And I love the notion of locking the focus and letting the guys row in and out because, you know, on those boats, the boat slides underneath the guy kind of the guy stays and then the boat slides and then he catches up in a slot again. And so that that just was so dramatic to me really what

Alex Ferrari 50:05
It was. So basically, it was a workaround to, to solve a problem. It was not as much of a creative decision, but then it turned into a creative decision and how you worked with it.

Jeff Cronenweth 50:15
Yeah, I mean, we might have done it anyways. Because it was such a cool effect. We talked about it before we did those scenes, but then it became assault as well.

Alex Ferrari 50:24
That's, that's, that's amazing. Now, you've been you've been, you know, you've obviously been in the business for a long time, you've been around a lot of different cinematographers, young cinematographers, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see young DPS make, when they first come out.

Jeff Cronenweth 50:40
I'm not trusting their first thought to an image or problem being talked out of it. letting fear debilitate you, as opposed to embracing it so that you can stay on edge and fresh and push boundaries, you know, I think, I think, God, I've seen some people so hungry to get that opportunity, and so focused on films that they cherished, they tried to emulate them on their first time out. And that's a risky business, because you don't have the kind of support on set to back up those choices if they don't work out. And if you take too long and you don't accomplish your day's work, then all of a sudden, you know, you're you're sprinting through stuff and making mistakes and dropping shots. And, and you've not only have you not achieved your goal, you've you've kind of like undermined yourself. And so I think you have to keep perspective of of the task at hand and know your audience in the sense of like, How much money do you have? How much time do I have? How much sport am I going to get? And sometimes you want to paint with old brushes, sometimes you want to paint with a big fat brush, because that's the way to get through that.

Alex Ferrari 52:07
Right. And so it's the equivalent of me trying to go on shoot fight a scene from Fight Club with, you know, $5,000, and it's six hours for a scene that took you maybe two or three days and you had a much bigger support staff than I would.

Jeff Cronenweth 52:21
That's yeah, exactly. So

Alex Ferrari 52:23
And that is a mistake. Yeah. I can imagine that a lot of them with our trim, like I'm gonna go shoot like Blade Runner. I'm like, Well, he was a bigger budget.

Jeff Cronenweth 52:32
When I was an assistant, I saw guys light for two hours and have like, very specific like, after Husted here after I see him here, or that little Tiguan, but it looked great. The actor comes in as I'm not going to that mark. I'm going here and here. And now it's either a redo for another two hours, or they're dark and not in the light. Or no, you know, it, that's all part of that relationship thing to like, if you once there's a trust and a relationship with the with the cast, and then everybody knows that everyone's on the same team, then we all help each other out. But when someone feels like they're being manipulated, then that's kind of you know, that can be problematic for sure.

Alex Ferrari 53:14
Now, let's talk about your newest film being the Ricardos which I had the pleasure of watching that I absolutely loved it. I think it's one of the best films of the year is I mean, beautifully lit and when I was watching I'm like, Oh my God, these guys must had so much fun shooting it because you're like, you know, it's Lucy and Desi and you know, it's it's obviously Aaron Sorkin directing in wrote this remarkable script. And, you know, you were we were kind of talking about beforehand, the tightness of the script and how tight you know, Aaron writes his scripts. What was it like working with Aaron Sorkin on an Aaron Sorkin script? And playing in this you know, the golden age of television?

Jeff Cronenweth 53:57
Yeah, no, it's fantastic. I it's probably as much fun as I've ever had on the set and I think everybody that was involved in it would tell you that not not because it was happy go lucky joking around just because it was a joy every day to shoot the material to shoot Javier and, and Nicole and JK, you know, and actually the entire cast the sets were beautiful. The atmosphere is very supportive. And it just it just was the the chemistry was so good amongst all the departments and everybody cuz I think we all knew how good the script was. And and it's something that we all have, you know, I don't care where you're from there's everybody has a little piece of I Love Lucy and them. My girlfriend is me is and has been in the country for about 15 years now. And she knows every episode, you know from from Vietnam, Trent so yeah, so you know, it's it's, it has a little something for everybody. And then it's a period piece and it's the 50s And, and, and so it was very, very exciting. I had, you know, worked with Aaron in a different capacity on social network, right, wrote, he wrote that script. And funny enough, the last shot of that movie, I think Fincher wanted to avoid the emotional goodbyes. And I told Aaron to shoot the last shot, which was an insert of a letter coming underneath the door. So of course, I'm still the DP, we I stuff. So that was our first director, DP relationship was that insert on social network. And then, you know, he, he's, he's, his dialogue is so amazing, and his tempo. So exciting. And like I said earlier, he, he makes a complete story, it's tight. And within that, it just opens the door for creativity for all of us to contribute. And, and he's very open minded about it. And he's very, like, embellished as us to bring more to it. And for me, you know, he had done a couple movies as a director before, including, you know, Fagin shot Chicago seven got nominated last year for it. And that, but that movie was like structured in it, you know, is half the movie takes place in a courtroom, which is so, so difficult. And So Aaron, you know, being a guy that wants to progress wanted me to bring some of like the light choices and styles and stuff that Fincher and I had had used over the past. Now, of course, this is different kind of movie. And so you have to adjust your adjust your, your kind of style to whatever the subject matter of the story is that you're telling, but it did open the door for me to really play a lot and to you know, capture the era capture the romance and the magic. And then I have to, to play with black and white, I got to play with flashbacks, like in the 40s which I I tipped my hat to hurl and some of the Mount in my grandfather to the starlight kind of lights and I lights that came through, like barter. And so that was really fun. And, and then, you know, staying true to the era, but but modernizing it a little bit. You know, it's it's, it's, it's one of those dilemmas that you you don't want to be a parrot parody of an era. You want to bring that era to what it is. But you also have a responsibility to entertain a modern audience, right. So you know, if you're doing a picture in 1910, you wouldn't use glass from 1910. They only used glass from 1910 because they had to they didn't have 1980s or 2020 glass, right. So I felt like in exploring some of the choices and cameras and lenses and light sources and all that, that we would stay true as much as we could. But then I would, I would bring it to the future a little bit. You know, like, for example, the black and white footage of the television show I Love Lucy, you know, a DP named Karl Freund photographed I Love Lucy. He was a feature guy. He was an inventor. He was known throughout the industry as a really like a technical technological wizard and a master someone Darfur he won an Oscar in 1937. He invented the incident meter, which read reads the, you know, direct light spot meter that, you know, reflected light. And so Desi and Lucy knew this. And so they asked him to shoot this TV show with that with the idea of trying to solve this dilemma of shooting a three camera show, but shooting it as if it were a live show, but shooting on film, and shooting it in front of a live audience. So all things that had not been done before. You know, in that time, or that era, they you know, if you lived in New York, you could watch a show live. If you didn't live in New York, then they were they filmed a TV monitor. Right, right, yeah. And then sent that around and then rebroadcast it. So the quality went way down. And Desi and Lucy didn't want they didn't want to work on the East Coast, they wanted to live on the West Coast. And two, they didn't want they wanted everybody to see the same image quality at the same time. So they decided to shoot on film, which was an extra cost, which they absorbed, which they also got the rights to after it aired the first time, which was kind of the dawning of syndication, right. So so the idea was to light something from overhead light, something that create a lighting scenario that where you wouldn't have to move lights between setups, that you could move fast and that you didn't block the audience from being able to see the talent and the idea behind that was that Ricky thought that our Desi thought that Lucy performed better in front of a live audience and the rest of the cast did as well. When they interacted, so those things were were the kind of the tasks that girlfriend was given. And then when he solved it all, you know, it was such a hit show and technological kind of accomplishment that people would come from all over the world to watch them do this and then more or less, that's what uh, you know, the three camera sitcoms became forever after that, you know, to this day to this day to this day they had headphones they had a wide shot to close ups they had they talk to each other the super script supervisor Congo kind of regulated the the cameras, you know, and so and then and then Desi you know, he they would cut it take a week to cut. And he he didn't understand why you had to watch just one camera one reel on a movie Ola. And so he asked me Viola to make one where he could run all three reel so he could see all three images at the same time and know where the cuts were based on the tempo and performance as in so now you know, you do split screens, or you have seven monitors, you have whatever it is, but he had them build a movie Oh, where you could run all three cameras at the same time. And so there was a lot of innovation going on. On that set

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
That show Yeah, people don't realize it. They just look at us like oh, it's a sitcom I'm like, but that's it kind of changed so much about everything on a technological sense on the story sense with her being pregnant for the first time. They they still never said the word pregnant but you know that there was a pregnant woman on a national television was like a thing, you know, and even having Desi as a Cuban lead. Well, that was a biggie. I'm Cuban. So you know, I was Desi was one of the only Cuban people I knew that were in the business. Or Latinos in general. When I was growing up, and I just every every Cuban on the planet knows who Desi Arnaz. It's like he's a patron saint of American Cubans. But it was such a revolutionary and it must have just been such a ball to go back in there and play you were playing. It just seemed when I was watching the movie. I was watching it and it seemed like everybody was playing and having a good time from from the performances, which all four of the leads, all of all should get nominated. But there's no question about it because they were so good. Javier nailed Nicola JK, and the actress who plays ETHEL. Nina, Nina. Oh my god, I love her and Goliath. She's wonderful and Goliath. So when I saw her pop up there, I was like, she held her home.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:34
Or even Jay Karen Goliath together, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:37
Yeah, JK. No, it was Billy Bob. Billy Bob's in July.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:41
But also. JK has a part in it. Because right here, and I think

Alex Ferrari 1:02:47
That's right. They weren't Yeah. So. And she held her own with these. I mean, those three are

Jeff Cronenweth 1:02:52
Oh, yeah, she, she did, she does, I'm a huge fan of those. And then it's a funny thing, because you have a built in audience per se, because everybody holds that show close to their chest. But within that, and because of that, everybody is very critical about how it's been done and who represents who. And so I have so much admiration for Nicole to put herself in that position and take that risk. Because there was a lot of animosity before it ever, you know, long before we ever started shooting when they announced who was being cast in what parts and whatnot. And I'm really, really pleased to see as people take in that movie. More and more people are just like, blown away by how good she is in it. How much of Lucile character she embraces and the true spirit of her. And that's yeah, she's gonna get nominated.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:51
There's no There's no question she's gonna get nominated. She almost like she was channeling Lucy. Yeah, it's what

Jeff Cronenweth 1:03:57
That's what Lucy's daughter said. Wow, she was Lucie. arnaz was extremely, extremely happy and moved to tears when she finally watched the final version.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:08
Oh, God, I can I can only imagine. Yeah, and Javier was just remarkable. And, I mean, I mean, that the lighting of the film, I remember the one shot that uh, it's not a spoiler, but there's a scene where Lucy calls everybody in to the studio late at night. That that scene, and when that door opens, and it's raining outside and light shafts come in. I'm like, Oh, they had fun shooting that.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:04:34
I couldn't wait to do that. From the time I read that book. I had that in the back of my mind. And it's so fun when it comes to fruition, you know? Yeah. You're waiting. You're like, okay, tonight's the night.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:44
It's funny, because sometimes I can watch this. I can watch a movie. I'll go that's the that's the that's the one. That's the shot that got the DVD to do what to get on this project.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:04:55
You're still right

Alex Ferrari 1:04:56
Isn't it true that like someone you read a script, you're like, oh, Okay, I'm gonna I mean, unless obviously, it's just like with David or someone you've worked with before, but if you're working with them for the first time, you look at the scripting like what's in this? Can I, first of all, can I tell the story? But what's in it for me? What, Where's My Challenge? Where can I have some fun is that basically like, Oh, I haven't done that before.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:05:16
It's the good and bad, like, you're like, Oh, this is gonna be amazing, like, and then you get to like, oh my god, a boat in the middle of the lake at night? How am I going to do that? So you know, you go back and forth the whole time, and then you settle down, and then you start to analyze it and solve all the problems and, and then, you know, make the story work. And

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
Being at being a cinematographer is basically solving problems 24/7 all the time. Like you're, there's things that are coming up constantly, that you have no understanding of like, okay, alright, give me a second here. Let's figure this out here. Let's figure it out that they're in the Oh, the actor doesn't want to stand there. Okay, so let's do this. It's like it's constant with you. It's constant, like on the set?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:05:56
I feel. Yeah, I think I think it is, but it's also the same for the director. Yeah. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, how much money you have, or how many days you have to shoot. problems happen, you know. Rather, weather changes, things break. Someone doesn't come out in time, something's wrong with something else. And whoever makes the best creative compromises at that moment wins, you know. So that's what these masters and they solve the problems. You because you haven't, you don't have a choice,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:33
Right! You got to go through because there's like you watch, watch,

Jeff Cronenweth 1:06:37
Watch storming of Normandy and Saving Private Ryan. And you know, they shot there for a week, two weeks, obviously, the weather is gonna change every single day. And that's supposed to take place in a few hours, and it's sunny, and then it's cloudy. And then it's this and then it's that but there was enough smoke and enough action, and it's color corrected so beautifully. And it's like you're caught in the moment of the energy and another, you know, it doesn't matter.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:00
Yeah. And there's one other film that you did with Sacha Gervasi Hitchcock, Sasha, Sasha is a good friend. And he's, we've talked a lot about, I've talked a lot a lot with him about Hitchcock, and how he did it, how fun was it to go back and like, tread over Hitchcock's like, walk the path of Hitchcock walk sometimes, like recreating some of those scenes, man,

Jeff Cronenweth 1:07:27
Very exciting, you know, again, it's, it's not so different than then being the Ricardos. Right? Good. Go down one of the paths of your idols, and you get to capture the great Anthony Hopkins playing, playing Hitchcock and Helen Mirren playing his wife, and you know, you're so familiar with all of his movies, you know, all the shots. It's a little bit like being put back in that place. And so it's, it's a, it's like a little kid going to Disneyland for the first time. But it's a it's the magical movie worlds that we get to go visit, you know. And so it was really, really fun to shoot that pay homage to, and then try to, you know, Hitchcock was always an innovator. And he was always pushing boundaries. And he was doing the single take movies, and he was using this, he was using that. And we had this debate at the beginning of the movie about whether we should shoot it on film, or whether we should shoot it digitally. And ultimately, you know, it's like, is it sacrilegious to shoot a Hitchcock movie digitally, and ultimately, it became down a financial problem and the producers realize the cost savings and pushed us towards a digital world. But when you go back and you think about it, like if Hitchcock was around today, he would be the first guy using the newest technology so in a way you know, I didn't have that same kind of like, feel like I down the world by not shooting it on film.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:55
No, I don't think I don't think Hitchcock would be dying on the mantle there on the on the top of the hill going film forever. Like he's not that he had been like when he took he would have grabbed an iPhone and shot. Oh, could you imagine him? Like I always wonder is like what would Kubrick to today oh my god what would what would Stanley do with today's technology? Oh god the stuff that they you know the Masters if you would have given these the tools to those masters? What would have happened now

Jeff Cronenweth 1:09:23
Look how good the stories were that they told already.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:26
They were they and in a time when you really needed to know your stuff like like when you shot Fight Club and when you shot when you shot film. You needed to know how to expose properly how did you need it, there's so much more knowledge you need as a cinematographer. Whereas in the digital world, you you have a lot more leeway. There is more leeway. So I'm gonna ask you a few questions as my guest What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:09:55
Watch a lot of movies, study directors and shoot as much as you possibly can.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:01
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:10:09
That's a good question. I would I just think, you know, I kind of mentioned it earlier is to embrace your fears and utilize that, you know, because I look, I've done a lot of a lot of phones, but when you walk on that, to that elephant stage door the first time or even every day, that morning, or even before that, when you're driving up on a street, and there's you go past 22 trucks before you get to the they drop you off in front of the set, you start, you know, the insulation, and you're like, oh my god, this is the day that I'm gonna get discovered that I don't know what I'm doing. And, and you walk through that stage door, or into that set or onto that house, and you look around, it's all overwhelming, and people are coming up, like, whatever, you know, 1000 questions start happening, and you just gotta sit in process and you watch the scene, you block it out, you know, obviously, you've been there before and you have a plan and stuff, but utilizing it, making it come together. You got to trust yourself. And and know that it'll come and you'll solve the problems and, and embrace all that all that insecurity you know, don't let it get the best of you because that's when you make mistakes or in questioning yourself. And again, I said that before is like, go with what you thought the first time that's usually the right choice, whatever your guts telling you, you know, and if it doesn't feel right, you'll you'll realize it by first time you're watching the monitor and looking through the eyepiece and go, you know, I got something's not working out here. I got it. Change this and stuff.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:40
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:11:43
A Blade Runner, a godfather stuck between like No Country for Old Man or Shawshank?

Alex Ferrari 1:11:57
Oh, yeah. Nice. All good, all good choices. And one last question specifically to you. Was there a lesson? Or what was the biggest lesson you took away from your father when it comes to lighting and being a cinematographer?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:13
It's not what you liked. It's what you don't like that has the most impact.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:17
That's, that's great advice. Great, great advice. And where can people watch being the being the Ricardos? And when?

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:26
I remember 10th and theaters, you know, I, I kind of looked around and see where it was going to be playing. So I think it's a limited release. And then on December 21, it's on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:38
That's amazing. Jeff, man, thank you so much for being on the show, bro. I really appreciate it. I can geek out a little bit more with you, I'm sure. But I appreciate your time, my friend. Thank you again for being on the show and continued success and please keep making movies my friend.

Jeff Cronenweth 1:12:53
Oh, well. Thanks, Alex.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 392: From Clerks to Shooting Boba & The Mandalorian with David Klein A.S.C.

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:28
I'd like to welcome to the show. David Klein, man how you doing David?

David Klein 4:36
I'm good. How are you man?

Alex Ferrari 4:38
I'm doing great brother doing great man. We've been trying to get this ready and recorded for god months now at this point but you're busy you're busy man you're working on Boba you're working on Mandalorian you're, you know saving the world little by little. So

David Klein 4:53
I'm about all that. But the first two things are true.

Alex Ferrari 4:57
Exactly. So I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come and talk to the tribe, my friend. So first questions I have for you, man, why God's green earth did you want to get in this insanity that is this business?

David Klein 5:11
Probably because I didn't know that the hours were gonna be what they are.

Alex Ferrari 5:16
No one tell you that no one taught you that you didn't that you didn't have this podcast. Back in the 90's

David Klein 5:22
I thought it was gonna be I thought it was gonna be hanging out with cool, famous people and you know, doing cool stuff, which is which is true, these things are true. But man, the hours are crazy. They're absolutely just insane. But to answer your question, I always, you know, I always was into movies. I think it was Blade Runner. I know, it was Blade Runner that my father took me to do when I was like 13 years or so. And he took me to the driver, and we watched it the driver. And I remember leaving and saying to him, you know, Dad, I think I want to make movies and he's like, sure, whatever, you know, do whatever you want to do. And he you know, he was really supportive. And he actually helped me, you know, my grandfather gave me this 60 millimeter Bolex when I was young, and my father, you know, at the time we had the VHS camcorder that would that would actually plug into the, you know, the VCR that you had to take with you, you know, from the top of the TV. And so I had those two devices and started making you know, stop animation films. And you know, funnily enough I was a kid I ordered that special edition Boba Fett, you know, would you take like the Box Tops from from General Mills, I think it was and you got to check for my dad and you send it to somewhere in Minnesota or wherever it was. And you wait like eight to 12 weeks and you're supposed to get this little boat fit that comes with a rocket that shoots out of its back. Right? And it shows up? Weeks and weeks later. And the fucking rockets glued in? Its back. Right? So I blew the Holy hell out of that thing when we were making one of these little 16 millimeter stop animation films. And, you know, it's I think it's fitting that I would end up on some of these Star Wars shows. After that.

Alex Ferrari 7:11
How much and how much. Yeah, how much would that Boba Fett be worth today?

David Klein 7:15
I think about $18,000.

Alex Ferrari 7:18
Yeah, not bad. Yeah, that would be that's a good return on investment, I think. Oh, man, listen, we all do things to our Star Wars stories when we were younger

David Klein 7:27
That was fine. Yeah, you know, my dad used to help me with those, you know, those rockets, the little model rockets that he'd set up, shut up, no parachute. And so one day, I took one of the the engines to him and I said, Dad, if I cut the nozzle off on this thing and put a like a wick in there, will it just explode? And he was like, come again. And I think he thought maybe I should help you out. And, you know, so he became my my, he became my grip, my gaffer my special effects, man, everything. That's amazing. He was not in the business. But he was no slouch when it came to helping his kids out.

Alex Ferrari 8:08
Did you ever invite him on any of the sets that you worked on?

David Klein 8:10
I did. I did. I don't think he ever, you know, he passed few years back. But and I don't know that he ever really understood what I do. Same here. Were there were some times you know, I was doing a show in in Hawaii, actually. And I think that's why he came. But he came to set and he you know, spent a week on and off the set and had a good time, you know, but still, I don't think it's sunk in what what precisely my job is?

Alex Ferrari 8:36
Yeah, my dad, I invited my dad onto a set that a commercial said I was direct and commercial. And he just was like, looking around. And he went back and told his family and friends. Everyone just listens to Alex. That's all everyone. He says something and they move and they move. That's all I know. I don't understand that still, to this day, he still doesn't understand what to write, let alone this. This is

David Klein 9:01
for sure. I think at times I don't understand what I do. You know what I mean? I still have so much to learn.

Alex Ferrari 9:11
So when you started off in your career, my friend you started off in a little film, little black and white movie called clerks with a little unknown director named Kevin Smith and an unknown producer named Scott Moser now we've had the pleasure of having Scott on the show as well. So I I've heard it from his perspective on how a lot of this stuff went down. How did you get roped into this insanity? That was clerks?

David Klein 9:37
Well, it started the way so many stories start Alex I found a girl in college right? And, and about two weeks after we got there she she dumped me for another young woman which you know, totally understandable. Even cool now. At the time for an 18 year old young man it was heartbreaking. Right? And so I was like, fuck this place man. I'm No no film school, which I had always wanted to do anyway, but didn't have the courage I guess, to go and you know, just go for it. And so I found the Vancouver Film School which used to advertise very heavily in American cinematographer, which is where I saw it. And, you know, they were they have a sister school now, which is the Los Angeles Film School here in LA, on Sunset, they're almost identical programs. At the time, there was just a Vancouver Film School, and it was a one year program, and they have classes started every two months. So every other month, a new class started. And this young lady that broke my heart put me on a path to end up in the same class with Kevin and Scott, you know, had it not been for her and all that timing, which, you know, is the luck, part of how you get into this business and who, you know, what put you where you are, I guess she was the luck part of it. And she put me in the class with Kevin Scott. You know, her time that put me there. And and to be honest, after, you know, Kevin dropped out halfway through the program to save the rest of his tuition for the movie, and and Moser not finished. And the reason they wanted to bring me on to clerks, you know, to be told this because they didn't want a cinematographer who knew more than they did. And I had, I think I had focused I know, I had focused more in to the cinematography aspect of the Vancouver Film School. But still, you know, it was a one year program, how much can you can you learn in one year a hands on not a whole lot. But I think the biggest compliment I got from clerks was when we were doing the 16th, regular 16 millimeter 235 blow up. We did a lab called good fonti film lab or defund the homeworks in New York, and the biggest compliment I got was that I exposed the film properly and really well.

Alex Ferrari 11:53
You know, from from my point of view, I mean, watch Clerk's made it multiple times in my life. It's exposed. I mean,

David Klein 12:02
You're right about that. Alex, it is exposed.

Alex Ferrari 12:04
It is exposed. You didn't under expose you didn't over expose overexposed. I mean, it's man, you You did you exposed? And what's so fascinating, I mean, for people listening, the young uns listening, you shot this on 16? Not even Super 16 Just straight 16 Right. It wasn't regular regular 16 Right. Get the 16 Emma wasn't it wasn't MLS, it was

David Klein 12:24
No, no, it was think sound. And we got all the all the, you know, the camera equipment and the audio equipment from a guy named Mike Spera, who had a little company called, it was called Pro camera, I think at the time, and he actually went on to run the studio in a story, you know,

Alex Ferrari 12:47
Oh, yeah. The big one over there.

David Klein 12:48
Yeah, yeah, exactly for quite a few years. And I ran into him years, all those years later, when Kevin and I were there doing cop out, which was, which was kind of cool. But it was basically all we could afford this. This Aeroflex Sr, just an Sr.

Alex Ferrari 13:02
Was just straight up. It was

David Klein 13:04
SR one straight up of SR one. And it was all we could afford. I think we had $3,500 for all the you know, camera equipment and audio equipment for the run the show, which was about four weeks. And so he's like, that's the one you get, and it sounded like a machine gun. And it did. And we had we had the little Barney that comes with it. We also had I would end up operating the camera with that Barney and just leather jackets and all sorts of blankets and whatnot on my head. Just so we weren't recording some of that that machine got on my camera.

Alex Ferrari 13:41
Probably because you didn't Did you have a blimp or you didn't have a blip?

David Klein 13:44
We had just, you know, the standard that goes over it, you know, kind of leather thing,

Alex Ferrari 13:49
Which was useless essentially,

David Klein 13:52
It was relatively useless. All the sound is coming out of the lens. You know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 13:56
Right! I'll tell you Well, I my when I was in film school, the camera I got to use was the SR three. And that was that. Whoosh. We were the first.

David Klein 14:07
That was slick, man. I mean, but I think by the time we were we shot chasing AMI Super 16 on SR three is a great camera was one of the best cameras out there. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 14:17
Oh, yeah. Solid. And you can you can hook up your laptop to get like imports and stuff. Yeah, that was like the big thing. Like, you could hook up a laptop.

David Klein 14:25
I remember that. I remember but not with the SR three. But I remember plugging my laptop into a 535. And oh, yeah, during the speed changes and that sort of thing. And it was that it was that black and white MacBook Pro. Not even a MacBook Pro is a black and white MacBook with 110 megabyte hard drive, you know, which was which was screaming back then. Oh, yeah. You think I'll never fill this up. I said emails bigger than that. You know.

Alex Ferrari 14:50
Exactly. So I see. So I have to like the ins and outs I mean, you guys shot that movie what in what ferrets remember correctly it was like a Just a few weeks. Or is,

David Klein 15:13
It was it was it was four weeks, really. But, you know, the was on nights. You know, that's why Kevin wrote into the script that somebody jammed gum in the locks, because we couldn't, we couldn't have the store during the day. And so we shot nights, and we had the store from about, I want to say we had it from 11pm until 5am. You know, so they were, they were sure, but you know, we would shoot and then Kevin would actually work at the store, either either the community sort of the video store all day, and then we, you know, he finds maybe a little time for for sleep a little bit asleep, and then we get right back to shooting. So it was it was more days than you would expect. But they were shorter.

Alex Ferrari 15:55
Did you? I mean, I did I remember when I was coming up, and I would walk on set as a as a director and I early on, and you just don't know what you don't know. So luckily for you, was there anybody on set that knew more than you about the camera department? Or were you the top of the top of the hill at that point?

David Klein 16:18
I was the top of that very small hill. I was the entire department. So you know, operating the camera pulling focus. And, you know,

Alex Ferrari 16:29
Lighting too right or did you do the lighting?

David Klein 16:31
Well, I had a little we had a little help, you know, there was a cat named Ed half stack, who was a friend of Kevin's and and he would show up and Vinnie Pereira would show up. But they had day jobs too, you know what I mean? So they kind of, yeah, they come in and out. People got to work. But whenever we would go through, we'd burn through a mag, I would shut down and I'd go into the tent and change, you know, I reloaded the mag and unload the current mag. So it was a woman department, you know, oh my god. It's also why if you look at the credit clerks, the boom operator is credited as whoever grabbed the pole first, you know, I mean, because it was literally whoever grabbed it. There was I wish I had I wish I carried a camera around back then that's still camera, because there was one scene where Moser and had half stack and I were in the shot, we play the three people that run out from the funeral home after that whole business goes awry, right. Yeah. And so it was the three of us and Kevin were there. And so Kevin was literally operating the camera, sitting on the ground on the street. He had the Niagra down, you know, by his by his thigh. And so he's holding the boom, he's operating the camera. And there's the three of us running in the shot skewed the intersection. Sorry about that. It's no, but I just wish I had a photograph of Kevin sitting there with the SR one with the boom pole, which was I think it might have been a hockey stick actually, with more likely been attached to it. And one man band at that point, you know,

Alex Ferrari 18:07
Sorry. And I know he got the he bought or rented a steam back and edited the whole thing old school because

David Klein 18:14
Right there in the back of the video store.

Alex Ferrari 18:16
Right in there. So I'm assuming you were there. Part of that as well.

David Klein 18:20
Very just the very beginning. And then and then I was out. I had to go get a job to you know what I mean? Right?

Alex Ferrari 18:26
Yeah, cuz I'm sure you didn't get rich off that first job as far as.

David Klein 18:30
No not at all

Alex Ferrari 18:33
So clerks comes out, man, and you I'm imagining, what do you think was going to happen? Seriously, like, I mean, from a DP's point of view, when you do a show like that, you're not going to go, this is gonna go national, this is going to blow up, it's gonna become a phenom. I'm assuming that's not what you thought.

David Klein 18:50
No, it's not what what any of us thought I think at best, we thought that it would be a calling card, just you know, to a studio or a small production companies that hey, these guys can can get a film made. But so let's hire them to do the next one. Which, you know, that did happen and so much more, you know, we didn't expect it to, you know, go to Sundance and be the little sleeper hit that it was, you know, it took off like crazy. And to be honest, for me, eventually. It was it was a deep hole to climb out of because to have a movie that's successful. And look like that is not great for a cinematographer. The same thing happened years later with chasing AMI, which is a wonderful film, and I stand by it to this day, but it doesn't look great. You know, it's not well, it's not well, lens. We barely moved the camera, aside from some of the many arguments in the movie. But, you know, it was a successful film that didn't look that great. So again, as a cinematographer, it was a there was a hole of time out for sure. Yeah, because

Alex Ferrari 19:57
I guess you were like, Oh, this will be a little thing. I can maybe show around. A little bit, no one's ever really going to see this. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I am known for this, like, Oh, you're the dB of clerks, right? And so that was a bit of a bit of a challenge

David Klein 20:12
It's a struggle, it was a struggle, not as much as I might be jumping ahead. But when Chasing Amy was, was at Sundance, it wasn't in competition, it was just a premiere. And, you know, we had done Mallrats in between and Mallrats had been largely kind of ignored. It has since I think found a huge audience, but at the time, it had been ignored. And so Kevin, and the rest of us were nervous, you know, we were nervous about what was going to happen with Chasing Amy. And so, you know, Kevin and Scott had a meeting with with the morally repugnant Harvey Weinstein before our screening and Harvey, you know, I think Harvey knew what he had. He absolutely knew he had a chasing me, but it hadn't even premiered yet hadn't been screened to a large audience yet, so him was nervous about it. And so Harvey offered him a deal for his next movie. But there were stipulations. You know, Joey Adams, who was lead and Chase, ami was going to be the leading dog when Harvey said, No, he said, that's one of the things and he said, Joe is not gonna be the lead. And you know, Dave's not gonna be a cameraman. And whatever else it was, those are the two that I really remember. Because after that meeting, we were all staying in this condo together. And Kevin takes Joey into, you know, a bedroom, and Moser takes me in the bedroom and breaks the news to us, and then we all go to the premiere. So, you know, it was a very surreal experience to have this audience just adore the movie. And you know, I'm sitting in the back row again, and I don't get to do the bucket. Next one, you know what I mean? So it was it was a kick to the gut, for sure. And then for, you know, Ben Harvey kept me out for about 10 years. And in those 10 years, the first question I always got when I was in a job interview was, why aren't you shooting Kevin's current film, and I would tell them the story, and you know, whether they thought it was true or not, or that I was being kept out, just because I was too inexperienced, and not good enough, that didn't matter. You know, whether they believe this, or that it didn't matter, for one reason or another, I wasn't shooting his movies. And so I had to just get out there and work. And so that's what I did, as I put myself on a 10 year plan when I got to when I moved to Los Angeles, and, and I said, if I if I'm not wearing where I want to be in need to be in 10 years, then I'm gonna go do something else. But I'm gonna give it everything I've got for 10 years. And it took just about all of those years, to finally, you know, I think get a grasp on on, on the craft, and being comfortable and what I can do with the crew and set and telling a story. That's what it's all about, you know, you have all the experience in the world, if you don't know how to tell a story. It's irrelevant. It's all irrelevant.

Alex Ferrari 22:55
It's fascinating to hear that story, man, because it means so many people looking from the outside in, you know, unless like, oh, well, you know, you you worked with Kevin and you did a couple of his movies. And then you know, your career was set. And it's the complete opposite. It was actually you had a hole to climb out of in the first movie. And then the second movie, or the third movie that you did with Chasing Amy, you weren't happy with visually. So it wasn't a great calling card for you visually. And then the movie that might have been the movie that would have taken you to the next level would have been dogma, because you would have had a budget, it would have been a studio project, a real a real Studio project. And it would have maybe opened up a lot of doors for you. But you would literally have to hustle for the next 10 years to kind of whittle your widdle a niche in for yourself. So you feel like no man, I can actually do this, for sure and open and open those doors. That's a really great lesson for people listening because it's like,

David Klein 23:49
It's it's a good thing. It's a hard road to travel. Because I had to learn as I was doing it, you know, I think it's an easier path to work, you know, under somebody with a lot of experience because, you know, everybody you ever meet on a set or in life knows something that you don't and you can learn something from them, especially on a film set. If you work with somebody who's got a lot of experience, you're going to learn so much just by watching just by you know, watching what they're doing. Yeah, exactly. And so to do to learn it on the job was rough. And there are a lot of rough looking projects that I did. You know, it wasn't I don't think it was until 1999 when I really started to figure out and and figure out that I want to say how to light but who knows how to light it

Alex Ferrari 24:50
Until you found a groove that you felt comfortable in and felt comfortable with with the quality of the work that you felt from your own eye that you were comfortable with. Like I feel like I'm getting a grasp of this Take a look. I've talked to so many cinematographers over the years, man, and all of them say the same thing. It's an impossibility to master the craft 100%. There's just so much to understand and learn. And then you look at, you know, you look at someone like deacons, you know, and you see what they're doing. They are, arguably masters at what they do. But there's, you could probably count those on one or two hands that are alive. Yeah, that are just at that level. They're just like a. It's like looking at a director and going up, Chris Nolan, David Fincher, you're like, they are at the top of their game. Like, there's very few of those big Spielberg, there's a camera and there's very few of these kinds of people in the world. So it's tough. I have to ask you, though, man, when you were during those 10 years, did you ever get pushback from crew people? You're like, oh, that's the guy who did clerks. Did you ever get any any shit? Any any like, crap out of that?

David Klein 25:56
I don't think so. I don't remember any behind my back, and I'm sure they're all this guy. This fucking guy shot.

Alex Ferrari 26:07
This guy. This guy shot clerks. Jesus, I'm working on

David Klein 26:10
Funny movie but did you see that GarageBand have a fucking you know, and you know, you know story arcs the reasons why did it because we couldn't afford to balance the lights. Right? We're gonna be shooting, shooting fluorescent. And you know, we had a little tungsten kit and it was gonna be mixed all over the place. And we didn't have the money to either gel, the fluorescence or, or even get like an HMI package or a proper Kino package or any of that stuff. So we shove like wine, which is what gave it I think that GarageBand aesthetic, which I love. And now Now I can sit back and watch it and just adore that movie. But for a long time it was it was rough.

Alex Ferrari 26:53
And that's the thing. I mean, you look at the movie now and it's just so it's so it's beautiful. It's wonderful. It's so it is that GarageBand is that raw on filter, just EQ and all aspects from the writing to the acting to the to the cinematography, the directing all of it. And it's you know, but at the time, I understand your point of view. Look, Robert, Robert Rodriguez had the same issues with El Mariachi. He's like, Yeah, no one was supposed to see this. This is just my test film and you want to release it nationally? Are you crazy? So it's, you know, a lot of those movies were like that when I talked to Rick about slacker you know, is the same thing. And Ed burns with Brothers McMullen. Like all these guys. When you guys were coming up during the 90s. You know, it's just such it's true for people who weren't alive during that time. They won't, and they'll never understand the magic of the 90s. In the independent film space, it is a special it's a very special time from I'm going to say 1990 to 99, that that decade will never happen again. And it had never happened before. And it was the Sundance decade. We call it kind of the it was the Sundance independent film decade was where VHS really started to come up. There was a market for these kind of these imagine it and I asked this to everybody like if parks came out today. No one would even look at it. It would be gone. Maybe, maybe you could catch some fire because of the writing.

David Klein 28:22
Yeah. Well, that's what that movie is. I think it is. It's all writing and it could catch on. But if it came out today, it wouldn't look that way. You know what I mean? It would it's you would have shot? You wish. Yeah, it's easy enough to go get a camera that gives you a really, you know, your iPhone, for example, is shooting HD and, you know, what is it 4k now? Even. And it is it is it's pretty gorgeous. And it accepts mixed light, you know, like the Alexa to shoot mixed light all day long and it

Alex Ferrari 28:54
Low light and low light.

David Klein 28:57
And it would have been so easy.

Alex Ferrari 29:02
Not changing, not changing in the back, not changing the backs of the back.

David Klein 29:06
Non of that. You know, there's a funny story where we shot the salsa shark scene. And we had so little money. Kim wasn't happy with one night but we'd wrapped and I have my fucking hands in the bag in the tent and, and he's like, let's reshoot that tomorrow. And I'm like, What do you want me to do with this film? You know, because we he had decided we're gonna reshoot it. And we had so little money. It was like the sec throw it out. We didn't process it. We didn't want to spend the money to process and print because that's the only you know, that's what we were doing back then. And so you cross it out. Yeah. Deleted Scenes.

Alex Ferrari 29:47
You shouldn't have thrown it out. I should have just kept that maybe, maybe maybe develop it after after Sundance.

David Klein 29:53
We were thinking no one's gonna see this is gonna reshoot it

Alex Ferrari 29:57
So after clerks man after clerks do you have this it was obviously a very big hit. It was it was a phenomenal it was a phenom situation. And then you got an opportunity to shoot a studio movie, which was, which was mall rats, which had a bigger budget, arguably much bigger, bigger movie. What was it like jumping from the one man crew to running a crew of people who obviously, many knew more than you did, if I'm not mistaken is that

David Klein 30:37
Everyone of them

Alex Ferrari 30:43
How do you run the show how do you run a set like that man?

David Klein 30:46
Well, I think you've got to have a little bit of humility. And I was very upfront with with everybody that I was turned on to and basically hiring and I said, um, you know, I remember saying to Andy Graham, who's a really good friend of mine, he's been a friend of mine since then, but I met him on that picture. And he was the focus puller he sent has become an operator and he's operating for me in a lot of projects and a lot with Kevin as well. But I remember telling him that I was green. I said, I'm green man, and I'm gonna fucking lean on you. And he said, you know, this happens a lot. You're the first person that's ever said it. And so I That's it. Yeah. So I owned that, you know what I mean? And Nick McNealy was the gaffer, who had just one of our producers was Jim Jackson, he had just done tombstone, and MC MC Anita was the gaffer on that and so he introduced me to make, I'm like, You did fucking tombstone, we're really afraid. Yeah, I'm on board. And, you know, I was the same way with him. I said, I'm gonna lean on you, man. Because I'm bringing and I'm, you know, I'm in this position. It's very fortunate, I'm very fortunate to be in this position. But if I really want to learn from you, and I learned a lot from, from MC. And it was, you know, across the board, that ever every department, you know, so I think you gotta, you always have to surround yourself with with people who know more than you. But I think you got to be upfront about it, too. You know, and don't try and hide the fact that you don't know anything when you don't know anything. Because everybody's been there. You know, we've all been there. And it's one of the things that a lot of people try to hide, and and it comes out in really ugly ways.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Oh, yeah, the ego and they start snapping at people. Because if you see people doing that, you can see that they're insecure. insecure, people are insecure people with the loud ones. The white ones are generally not the ones you have to worry about. That is that scenario in that scenario. If there's a bar fight, and there's a quiet guy stretching in the corner, that's the guy you got to apply. Guy you gotta worry. Not the guy swinging is

David Klein 32:48
Not the guy. That's, that's, that's, you know, I'll talk. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 32:53
It's the quiet guy. But when it comes to being on set, like there's a quiet, there's a quiet a when you know, you don't need to show in that way. Like I don't have to be blustery. Like, I know how to do this. And I have if you sit if you're that dude, you obviously have no idea what you're doing. You're extremely insecure. And I'm sure you've worked with directors like that, especially in in God.

David Klein 33:17
We need to get into that. Yeah, yeah, it's like, you know, the showrunner of, of homeland he's, he's in any room is and he's the smartest guy, smartest person in the room. He's also one of the most mild mannered and soft spoken. And so you know, when he's very thoughtful, and he's, he'll talk about seeing when we're when we're prepping and rehearsing a scene, and he's very quiet. And like, everybody leans in to listen to what he's saying, You know what I mean? He never feels deep, never feels the need to be loud. And this is, you know, what I think and that sort of thing. And, you know, I run into that, you know, you run to that all over the place and like, composition or going with Dave Filoni and Jeff Albro. Now, the same way, you know, they never feel the need to be the loud voice in the room. It's the quiet voice in the room that, that everybody listens to,you know,

Alex Ferrari 34:04
Yeah, and when you're working at that level, man with that kind of caliber of people, you know, they've done so much each of them in their own right, that, you know, and I'm sure you've, you've you've had the pleasure of working with some amazing directors and, and collaborators over the years, you know, you start seeing when people know what they're doing, they just, they just are, you know, they just do they don't talk about it, they just very quiet very, like, why don't we move over here?

David Klein 34:31
Well, yeah, also also, I think at this level, Alex, you know, there's, there's an amount of preparation has gone into everything and, and I've done this enough times that I know that I gotta I have to prepare, I have to be ready. And whether that means knowing all the shots that we're going to do or just understanding how we want to like to set up to tell the story, you know, you just have to be I have to be prepared.

Alex Ferrari 34:56
Now after Mallrats which we you said, you know, I actually one of the five people who saw it in the theater.

David Klein 35:04
I actually saw the theater. So who are the other three?

Alex Ferrari 35:07
It must have been Kevin Scott. I actually saw it in a theater while I was in college. And I actually got it was it was a special screening and I got the Mallrats got the book. At the theater, they were handing them out at the feet. I never forgot this. The original book, I had it. And and I saw Mallrats I loved it. I thought it was genius. When I saw it, I was like, This is the greatest thing I've seen since sliced bread. This is amazing. And then it died on the vine. It didn't find an audience at the time. So Kevin was pretty much putting in director jail at that point, correct? No, he was like, Oh, it was a once it was a fluke kind of thing.

David Klein 35:43
Well, you know, he had the script for Chasing Amy. And I think what happened is, you know, we went to Universal for this, this project. And Harvey always wanted to work with Kevin, he knew what he added Kevin. And so Kevin had a script Chasing Amy. And he took it to Harvey and he had a meeting without without Scott Mosier, which may have been a little bit of a mistake, because Kevin agreed in that meeting to do it for a price, you know, without any script changes, and and and so when he goes back and meets with Moshe, he's like, Hey, I got our money, motors thing and, you know, couple, 3 million, 4 million whenever he's like, great, would you get to 50 grand, and motors coming in? What one. And so we ended up making that movement for turning 50 grand, which just, you know, kind of it was a bummer at the time. You know, we all wanted to make movies for more money, which which means more time you know, that's what it means. It means you can actually take the time that you want to devote to each and those things are more time anyway. You never have enough time. Nobody ever has enough time. Even the biggest things I've done, it seems like we're always scrambling, you know,

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Even even if I'm assuming no Marvel set, they're scrambling still. I've heard I've actually talked to some people have worked on this 100,000,200 $50 million dollar budgets. And they're like, Yeah, we stole this shot and like you stole a shot. What?

David Klein 37:12
You guys were shooting for 130 days. Why do you have to steal the shot?

Alex Ferrari 37:16
No, I think was chrome worth. Jeff Grant was on a show also network. He's like, Yeah, I stole this shot. And this shot. I mean, David, like, it was just me, David. And like another guy. I'm like, they needed a shot at Harvard. And they couldn't get it. So they stole it.

David Klein 37:28
That's right. I remember. I remember reading about that.

Alex Ferrari 37:31
And I was like, what? That's amazing. You can't forget your roots. Man. You can't forget that hustle. Man, you no matter how big you get them in the Oscars, you win.

David Klein 37:42
It's true. But anyway, so we ended up you know, we made that that for two and 50 grand. And then what I already mentioned, what happened at that, Sundance was 96. And I pushed out for for 10 years, I went to hustled and the same time, you know, Harvey didn't let Kevin use the same cinematographer. Twice. You know, Bobby almond shot shot dogman. Bobby was excellent cinematographer. And, and Harvey said notes for the next movie. And so then they did Kevin to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. And it was Jamie Anderson, Jamie and another great cinematographer. And he didn't like the way that looked either, and so on. Jersey girl gives them below segment ends up really not liking the way that looks either. So Kevin finally said, Well, maybe it's not the DP maybe it's the director that that you're unhappy with. And so after that, Kevin was basically like, give me my guy back. And so he and I got got back together for cliques too. So we've been apart for 10 years, nine, nine and a half, 10 years. And so we were bringing 10 years of experience of working with other people together to an existing friendship, and it was the greatest reunion I've ever had, you know, and then we went on to do another four or five pictures we did you know, after clerks two, we did Zack and Miri Make a Porno. And we did, you know, cop out and red state and we end up doing a pilot or two and, and it was just, it was wonderful because it was bringing 10 years of experience and and just just getting back together. And we had a language from before. But we had a new way of telling stories from all this experience. And that coming together, I think created some of the best work that we've done. commendation, which was Redstate, I think is our finest hour, you know, can we do together? I love that movie. I love I love it so much and a lot of blood sweat and tears. That was us getting back to our roots. And, you know, I was the Kevin I actually wrote a letter to see the poster, who was the president the union at the time to allow me to operate, you know, because that the union would have to allow this to happen and you know, it's got to be a creative choice. It can't be budgetary, and it was absolutely Be creative. You know, we were trying to get back to where we'd started. And, you know, Stephen understood that Stephen has worked with Kevin actually. And, you know, likes him a lot. And so they agreed to it, the union agreed to it. So I actually operated the camera, and we were literally we were back to where we begun. And it was a much bigger project, it was $4 million. But, you know, $4 million, as it goes far in 2008, or whatever it was 2009 2010 as it as it did back in the 90s. No question.

Alex Ferrari 40:35
And this man, after all the years that you were doing, you've been doing this? Is there anything you wish someone would have told you at the beginning of the career of your career besides beware of the sides, get out? Both sides get out and be beware of the morally repugnant Harvey Weinstein?

David Klein 40:52
You know, I think it's probably one of the hardest things that I've had to learn is that there's, there's an, there's an elegance and simplicity, you know what I mean? Because when you're when you're starting out, or when I was starting out anyway, I can't speak for other people. But when I was starting out, you know, I was, I was really trying to light a scene to tell the story. And I was, I think it was a lot of it was, was forced, you know, and it was just too much. And it took me a while to sit back. And, you know, when you're lighting a scene, you always got to look for the light to turn off. Because there's always at least one, there's always at least one that is unnecessary, and you don't need it. And it's not telling the story. It's just, you know, you're showing off or you're being, you know, you're being cute or something. But, you know, I wish that's the lesson that took the longest to learn. I wish somebody would have told me that just just fucking relax. And there is, there's a real elegant elegance and simplicity. And I think, you know, it's hard to describe, it's hard for me to describe what is simple, or elegant in lighting, because I can't tell you why I like to see in a certain way, it all comes from the gut. And that's another piece of advice. I wish I would have learned that, you know, just just follow your gut, follow your instinct and and don't second guess yourself, and even if it's gonna even if you're wrong, just fucking do it. And you're gonna learn from your mistakes. You know, if you are wrong, you'll learn from it.

Alex Ferrari 42:19
And you can you talk about the happy accidents. Because as cinematographers and directors we all want to control everything at all times, which is insane, and never happens ever. Yeah. But they're these little things you're like, how did that was perfect? How did that like, just hit the I chest? Right? The flare hit at the right moment? Can you talk a bit about that?

David Klein 42:44
Absolutely. I mean, some of the some of the coolest things that I've learned have been complete and total accident, you know, and when, when you're, when you're on a set you keep, you have to keep your eyes open for these things. Because you know, electrician will be moving a light, and it'll be on. And you know, because it's an HMI, it's not going to hot restrike. And so they want to keep it on while it's moving. And you'll still hit something that was completely unintentional. And it comes over here, and you know, it's reflecting off of that it's hitting the set, and you're like, fucking stop, just freeze where you are. That's what we want. And then the grips are like, Oh, great, now we got to contain the rest of it. You know what I mean? It's still off here. Yeah. turn those lights off. When your MO don't let him see the lights and your moon around, you know, turn them off. But you always have to be open for that. And even you know, in life you're you're out at a restaurant, you're you know, you're at a bar, you're at the movie theater, whatever it is. Pay attention to your surroundings because there's always, you know, I learned so much about lighting from being in far too many bars in New York in the mid 90s. You know what I mean? They were all dark. And a lot of them were dive bars and and you just see the way that these dimly lit bars had really cool things going on, you know, and always you always have to be open for that and keep your eyes open for it. Because you can learn just as much sitting in a seedy dive bar in New York, as you can be asked on set when it comes to lighting. Trust me.

Alex Ferrari 44:20
I've been at some time. No, you know, as a cinematographer, there's always a day on set, where the entire world feels like it's crashing down around you. It could have been on clerks, it could have been on Mandalorian are those Is there a day that sticks out in your head? That you felt like, I shouldn't be here, this whole I'm gonna get fired, this whole thing's not gonna work. And what did you do to to kind of go through that and get through that obstacle?

David Klein 44:49
I don't know if there's a day or a handful of days in particular Alex, but all that that happens all the time. Happens all the time, and you just have to push rule, you know, there's so many times when it feels like the sets falling apart and you're behind schedule, and you're not going to make your day and you're not getting the shots the way you want each set to push through. You know, you have to you always have to push through because it, it feels like that a lot. You know, I had there was a point I was going for, and I missed it asked me something else, man, I, I'll come back to that.

Alex Ferrari 44:49
Well, I mean, I, as I've been, I've been blessed to talk to so many amazing people on this show. I've realized that everybody from the Oscar winner to the first time filmmaker, all suffer from impostor syndrome. Every single one of them, even to this day, you know, I'm talking to some Oscar winning screenwriter. He's like, Yeah, I don't even know if this next script. I'm like, you just won the Oscar, what's wrong with you? Like you just are like, you're considered one of the best writers ever? Like, why are you? Yeah, he was I just, I just do. And I think I came to realize that everybody deals with it. And I think it's something that kind of keeps you sharp. I'm assuming that you have the same issues as far as impostor syndrome. Always. And,

David Klein 46:20
Yeah, you have to be I mean, you have to be your most your fiercest critic, you have to be your biggest fan, you have to be your biggest supporter, you have to be, you know, your most most critical eye against yourself, I think, because nobody knows what anybody else thinks all you have is yourself. So and you have to rely on all the people around you. Um, let me sound pretentious for a second quote, was it? Orson Welles said that, you know, a painter needs a paintbrush or writer needs a pen and a filmmaker needs an army. You know, and it's true. And no, no cinematographer, no director, no filmmaker is an island. We can't You can't do this alone. You know, what I mean, you have to have this this support this support system that is, is, you know, it's the most record is the most complicated and sophisticated recording device known to man. You know, and a lot of the times, you know, a lot of times it is like being deployed, you know, I did homeland for for six years, and we were either for seven months, either out of the state or out of the country, sometimes both within the season. And it is like a deployment, you know, I, it's, it's, I can't, I can't equate it to going to war. I can't compare it to going to war. I've never been to war. But in my life's experience, it is like a deployment. And you know, you're just in the trenches for seven months, eight months, you know, and it's nonstop. And it's hard to remember sometimes to get out of the way, you know, because if somebody looks at something that I this is probably paraphrasing, I think Deakins, but if if somebody looks at something that I've shot, it says, Wow, that's a great looking episode. You know, that's a great looking show. That's a great looking movie. Without talking about a story that I've failed. You know, I think it is our it is my job as a storyteller to be almost invisible. And it should be we should be the silence between the notes, you know, and if somebody looks at something about shots, well, you know, that was that was a great story, you know, then that's a success for everybody for all of us. But if they single out the cinematography, lighting camera work, then then I don't think we were, we weren't serving the story at that point.

Alex Ferrari 48:48
Very true. A lot of a lot of times, especially I don't know about you, but when I started out, I wanted to call the shots. And the story was the like, I'm like, I want to do that Scorsese shot and Goodfellas, I want to do that shot. That's Kubrick did I want to do that shot that Spielberg did like we all we all do it but as you get older, you start realizing like what's the story? What's the story because before it was a it was a lot harder to do those shots. It was super hard to do a lot of those shots back in the 80s 70s 80s 90s. To do some of those insane shots that those masters did was difficult. Where now that technology has gotten to a place where you know you could with a ronin you can run around instead of getting a full giant Steadicam up and you can you can you could do some insane shots run again jumping through going through like there's things that you can do

David Klein 49:35
Absolutely, absolutely. It's not and but but there's there's still, there's still always the next level. There's still somewhere to take it, you know, but it has to start the story I worked a lot during manda Mandalorian Season Two I worked a lot with Sam Hargrave. He was the main senior director and then he went on to do you know, extraction and some of the stuff that that he was doing and did an extraction is absolutely insane. And it was a perfect blend of it was a perfect blend of his background, being a stuntman and becoming a second year director and then a director. And combining that with all the new technology of the day, you know, there's that scene you look at the behind the scenes stuff, where he's basically riding on a four wheeler ATV of some sort, and he's actually directing and operating the camera and somebody you know, chasing a car basically going forward and in reverse and, and then somebody detaches him and he runs up and shoves the camera through the window. And then there was a takeover or some sort, they did a CG a visual effects blend, you know, going into the car, and then they're all all of a sudden in the car in another shot, they blend it together and the car drives away. And so it's it was beautiful choreography. And it was it was like, you know, watching a ballet dancer, except, you know, is more punk rock than that.

Alex Ferrari 51:02
Yeah, I mean, there's always a place to take. I mean, look at that shot that Spielberg did and where the worlds inside the car where the cameras just rotating around the car while the you know, the aliens are attacking and things are exploding and you just like when you know, when you and I sit there going? How the hell did they do that? Then they've done they've gone to another place. Yeah. Because we Graeme Jesus, I mean, you're just like, how did he do that? So it's, it's, it's it's pretty remarkable, man. Now I have to ask you about Mandalorian. Brother, like you worked on season one. You didn't work on season one. You worked on Season Season.

David Klein 51:42
I came in and season two as the second second cinematographer to bash anyone and Matt Jensen. So I was in seeking a matt Jensen got a little overloaded with prep work. And so he turned the episode six over to me. And as you know, when I met Robert and I had I had gotten here, I gotten here from an introduction to Fabbro. Through Lesli Linka Glatter, who was my main policy director on homeland and then you know, Matt Jensen also brought me up. And so that's how I kind of came to be here. After season two, you know, Matt and bass were going off to do their own things. They weren't coming back for their own reasons. And so I got, I guess, promoted to the main cinematographer on the Book of Boba Fett

Alex Ferrari 52:33
So so when you're, I have to ask you some technical stuff, man. Yeah. How the hell do you lighten the volume? Because I know, I have a couple of buddies of mine who are VFX people working who work the Mandalorian season one. And he was telling me that he's like, yeah, they shoot a lot. But there's still a lot of cleanup work that we need to do with some of the edges and, and, and creases and things like that, that it's not all in camera, but it's a lot better than where it's not a green screen either. So there's a kind of happy medium. But how do you like that? I'm assuming there's not an HDMI off? Like, how do you do that? How do you light it?

David Klein 53:08
You know, it's, that's a hard question to answer. It's kind of like asking, How do you like, how do you like anything? You know what I mean? It's got its own. It's a, it's a fucking process.

Alex Ferrari 53:21
I'm just telling you, it's fucking hard, dude. It's weird.

David Klein 53:25
There's nothing easy about it. I think I had a, I had a lucky introduction to it in that, you know, I was doing just a few days here and there during season two. And so I was getting to know and I was able to watch bass and Matt do their thing in the volume. And so I had a slow introduction to the volume and in season two, and then rolled right into Boba Fett shortly after that, and was thrown in the deep end, you know, where there's, there's a long prep, there was a long prep to Boba Fett, I think I was on for about five months before shooting started. And it has a lot to do with with lighting the content that's going on volume walls, you know. And so essentially, you're in the Unreal Engine, you're in a VR session, and you're lighting the content, the way you would want to light it practically, you know, and that's, that's one thing that is always a sticking point at Fabbro. Because the tendency for a cinematographer, when you get into the VR environment, and a virtual lighting environment is to do whatever the fuck you want, you know, because you can do just about anything. But you also have to match that in the practical set that's going to be inside the volume. And one of those things is like don't light it however, you could in a virtual environment, let it how you would in reality, or else it's going to start to look like a video game. It's gonna you know, it's yeah, you can put a source the size of the sun out there and do this but could you do that if you were lighting this virtual environment practically no, you could you You'd have, you'd have HMIs and whatever you're going to use, and that's also what you're going to use on the practical set. So, you know, it starts with lighting the virtual environment and, and knowing how to bridge the gap between the virtual and the practical, because, you know,

Alex Ferrari 55:19
You could actually move light sources within the volume itself that meaning the, the VR aspect of the Unreal Engine, you could put a light somewhere in the virtual space that lights through the LEDs on and there is an aspect to that correct?

David Klein 55:35
There is there is you're not gonna get, you're not gonna get directionality, you're not going to get hard light, you know, you're gonna get a lot of soft light, you're gonna get all the interactive stuff like that you get from the environment, but any, any direct a hard light, you're going to have to do practically and so when you're doing it in the virtual environment ahead of time you know, you have to know that I'm not going to be able to do this entire wash of sunlight in here I'm only going to be able to do this you know, these spots and these broken up bits of sunlight so that's what I should do in the virtual and then I'll do that also in the in the practical you know, with HMIs or we've also gone into tungsten now with with some of the loads started doing that on Boba Fett didn't didn't know if it was possible or not. And I've been told that it was not possible to get the tungsten in the volume but then I was talking to everybody from from state trapped and ILM and they said we can absolutely go tungsten I don't know who told you that and I to be honest, don't remember who told it to me either. But once we started using tungsten light in there it I think it made everything feel a little more real because it's just it's a full spectrum you know, light source and it just kind of fills in all the blanks wavelengths you know, and it just it just made it all feel a little more real for me.

Alex Ferrari 56:58
When I was talking to Dean Conde because he was on the show and he was right before he was heading out to Boba I think he chatted he did did you Boba, or do you shoot it shoot some episodes Ababa. He was telling me that he was lighting outside the volume as well getting some lights built it's something like that, or am I mistaken?

David Klein 57:16
No, you're not mistaken one thing that we haven't you know, we haven't been able to do and I don't know if it'll ever be possible is to do abroad, you know, sunlight source or you know, open moonlight even anytime you want to just just fill the volume with light, if that's what the scene requires, you need to take it outside. Because first of all, there's not enough room, it seems like it's a big space, but it gets it gets very small very quickly. And if you did wash it with with, you know, giant HMIs or big tungsten sources, the lights just gonna bounce all over the LED walls and render them useless. So, anytime we need open sunlight anytime we need, you know, say the desert at night where it's supposed to be Moon source, we'll go on the backlog. But if we need pockets, if we need, you know, a skylight here in there shooting some sunlight and then we have some some parts of the ceiling that we can take out big sections of the ceiling that we take out. And there's still there's a lot of rigging up there a lot hardware to work around. And so there's still not a lot of space to get lights, you know, away from where they need to be so you can have good shadows and so we ended up using mirrors a lot. So we'll have an opening you know, opening in the ceiling that might be five by 10 by by 12 Something like that. And then we'll have a big mirror of above and then we'll have an HMI Thompson for now whatever it is, another 1520 feet away so that there's a good amount of distance from the light and whatever's cutting it which is usually I go about hanging beneath the opening in the ceiling so that we're trying to get as far away from the light as possible so that we have good shadows you know, and there's there's just so much hardware to work around that it's difficult but we kind of cracked it a little bit and are getting better at it as we as we learn more which you know, we're learning something every day that were in there

Alex Ferrari 59:13
Right it seems like from season one to Season Two to boba and now hopefully I can't wait to see Season Three it seems that things are you can just sense things are getting a little bit more real and the way it's shot it just looks like the end sequence of you know the famous Luke Skywalker see and the season two like that's it's a masterwork honestly that whole episodes a masterwork it's absolutely absolute masterwork, I've watched the end sequence 1000 times because I'm a geek and and I got to ask you to use your your your your your similar vintages me, as far as age is concerned. So you got to keep out every once in a while dude, like you're like, You got to geek out

David Klein 1:00:00
For sure No, I'm turning into a 12 13 14 rolls very often on set, you know, I mean, you know, throw 10 stormtroopers in front of a camera and I'm 12 years old again.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:26
Yeah, the whole lightsaber, a lightsaber pops up. You're just like, Oh, forget it. I'm out. I can't.

David Klein 1:00:33
You know, it goes back to me blowing the hell out of that little little special edition Boba Fett. And, you know, I had all I had all the, the toys. I have some some of them in my office right now. Little baby clients to start with.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:46
That's, that's amazing. But so you on boba, you got to shoot with Robert. You shot for Robert Rodriguez, who is known very well known for being his own dp. So what was it like shooting for Robert because Robert is not used to working with other DPS generally speaking.

David Klein 1:01:05
I'll be honest, he largely left me alone. You know, he, I think he enjoys not having all the responsibility. Alright, you know, because he's still, you know, he's still he still edits everything. And even when we were prepping, ie, we were prepping remotely because it was the beginning of the pandemic. And so he was in Austin with his kids, and he was shooting basically animatics or a stump is with his kids and with some of his old, you know, Star Wars toys from when he was kid. So he's still very hands on. But when it came to the, the, you know, how are we gonna light this I realized, said he had ideas that we will talk about when we were prepping and when we were lighting some of the virtual environments, but for the most part, he left me alone. He would do you know, like most directors, so he'll tell me if he doesn't like something. But it wasn't like he was pointing me in a specific direction for lighting. You know, we he left me Well, let me do my own thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:09
He trusted. He trusted that you knew what you were doing?

David Klein 1:02:11
Yeah, I guess so. I dont know that's true, but he might think it is so.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:17
I saw I think it was in one of the behind the scenes that day. philon It was like, He's seeing the animatic that you're talking about? And he's like, can you stop? Can you stop it right second? Did you just shoot an animatic? With Star Wars toys in your backyard? He goes Yes. Yes, I did. And he's like, that is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. I think that was the moment that the book of boba he's like, wait a minute, let's bring Robert into the book of boba. And let's bring him into this because this is this is insane. And did you do with the season two? Boba episode or? No?

David Klein 1:02:51
I didn't. That was episode six. That's the that's the one that I did with Robert.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:57
Oh my god. Dude, you gotta I mean, okay, let's stop for a second geek out for a second when you saw boba show up for the first time. On set. What I mean, you guys have to be five year old.

David Klein 1:03:09
Absolutely. We are. That was a tough shoot, though. And, you know, it was I can't say it was anticlimactic. But we had shot a lot of the scenes with Boba Fett, you know, onstage and on the volume prior to the, you know, when he put your ducks up? The introduction? Yeah. And the introduction was was done out in Simi Valley because it had you know, we just needed the travel that scene needed the travel that you can't get in the volume. And it also needed that that open sunlight. And and so it, it forced us to go out to Simi Valley. And might be one of the reasons I got that episode because maybe Basma Matt didn't didn't want to go out there. You know, it was it was not an easy issue. It was It was rough. It was rough. It was five or six days out there. in Simi Valley was a lot of fun, but, and like I said, I can't say it's anticlimactic, but we had already been introduced. And so you know, I can't say that we were out there just to get it done. But there was a certain aspect of we got to get this done because we had a finite amount of time. And you know, what's funny is we only had six stormtroopers out there.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:19
Really? You did an alien style where they only had six aliens.

David Klein 1:04:25
Either that or I mean, there are a lot of complete CG VFX Stormtroopers. Wow, really, if you you know, and they're really good. They are really good. It's because I think it's, it's obviously much easier and the effects to do a stormtrooper than than version of face, you know. And there's, there's one that I'll point out and it's the last one to jump on the transport when the transports are taking off that you can kind of tell it's remember it I remember that one, right. I remember that. Yeah. So that's the One that that and I think it was only because I knew you know going in that that was CG and that only a portion of the the rest of them that were jumping on the ramp were actual troopers you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:05:13
It's pretty so much fun that out. But when I saw that episode, and I saw that episode, I was just blown away by how how cool it was. And you could tell it was the first time they were off the volume right in the whole series.

David Klein 1:05:28
Well, no, no, not exactly. Because there's a lot of backlot work. There's there's a lot of backlot work Correct.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:35
That was the first locate. That's the first location, first location.

David Klein 1:05:38
You're right about that. And in Boba Fett, we had a lot of a lot of backlot. And we had one location, which was Huntington gardens we went to for a few days, two days. For the for episode six, which was on the band before us, you know, the Luke Skywalker episode of Boba Fett.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:58
I thought that looks familiar. Like I was watching them like, oh, man, that looks like hunting diver.

David Klein 1:06:05
You know, we did. We did three versions of bamboo forest. In that episode. One was backlot one was on the volume and one was Huntington. And going back to, you know, being the silence in between the notes, some of the band before us that we did on the volume was some of the, that might have been the hardest volume that we did the entire season for many different reasons. But I think it blends in pretty well. And the fact that, that, you know, the transition from backlot to volume to Huntington is seamless. I did is is one is one of the things that makes it successful. But it's also like I was saying earlier, it's getting out of the way. And it's it's making, making that transition, you know, invisible and and just just having a sort of elegance and simplicity.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:57
Well, man, congrats on all the amazing work you're doing with John Dave up there. In Northern California, you guys are doing some good work with the Mandalorian. And we're all super excited to see the new season coming up this year. And it didn't just finish its production. It's not done now. I thought it was I thought I read it somewhere, brother. I'm not trying to get you anything. No, no worries. Don't worry. It's okay. I thought I read.

David Klein 1:07:22
Recently, I've recently finished another season of a Disney plus the streaming.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:29
Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, but no, seriously, man, congratulations on all the all the hard work you've done. And now knowing your backstory a bit more than I did before, man. I respect that even that much more because I didn't know about the 10 years in the wilderness that you had to go through like you were

David Klein 1:07:48
Los Angeles,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:50
Then years in the wilderness trying to trying to kind of carve your way in and climb your way back out of of the situation that that repugnant ly more the morally repugnant Harvey and, and those circumstances kind of hurt you on the way up. So kudos to you, man for keeping up there. And hopefully, this is a lesson for for the lessons for people listening that like, you got a castle doesn't matter where you start, or what happens. It happens, you know, things happen, that can slow your progression down in the sea. And then you have to ask yourself, How bad do you want it? Yeah, that's the question.

David Klein 1:08:25
You know, like I was saying earlier about, you know, advice to the young and up and coming. You know, my father was an orthopedic surgeon, he would not let me be a doctor, because he was a doctor, and his father was a doctor, my grandfather was a doctor, and they were never home. And so, I chose a profession with with ours worse than a fucking surgeon. You know what I mean? It's really, you really got to think long and hard about if you want to be in this business, because it takes a toll, you know, and I've got a marriage that was destroyed. I have a 14 year old daughter who as she was growing up, you know, from, from six to 11 or 511. I was doing homeland and I was gone seven months a year. And so I turn around and she's 12. You know what I mean? And I'm like, we're, we're all that time ago. I missed all that time. So you got to think long and hard about it.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:25
Yeah, it's something that they don't tell you in films will tell you that a lot of men, especially for DPS, even more so than directors, DPS are always working. You know, they're, you know, they're not getting the fat, you know, checks a lot of times, so they have to keep hustling, they gotta keep working, they gotta keep going. And that's time and that does break up. I know, a lot of note a lot of DPS with marriages don't make it. They it's, it's, it's, it's tough. So you really got to love what you're doing. You really really really got to love what you're doing.

David Klein 1:09:57
I remember being at a festival how Ah, festival in Bozeman, Montana. And they would always have a couple of cinematographers there. One one year I was there as one of the cinematographers in Haskell Wexler was the other. And so we were speaking to a group of university students and we were talking about the hours and you know, he was he was still promoting, who needs sleep, the documentary that he made about the working hours in the business and and we were talking about the hours and one of the one of the students, you know, ask the question, how do you guys make it work? You know, how do you how do you? How do you have a life live a life and work these hours? And Haskell just goes? I'm on marriage number three guys. You know it sometimes it doesn't.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:40
Bam. Oh, that's a drop the mic moment right there. That's, that's it that is raw and truthful as as it gets. That's so awesome, man. So awesome. I didn't I know you wanted to do a dress the the accidental shooting that happened on the set of Ross with your friend, can you can you discuss that a little bit.

David Klein 1:10:58
You know, I've known Halina for a short amount of time, you know, about a year. She was a wonderful person she was I thought she was a great cinematographer, I'd introduced her to some some members of camera department that we're actually working with her unrest. And I'll be honest, Alex, I, you know, when we were first getting into this, it was so raw, and I had a lot of emotional opinions about it. And I don't remember exactly what I wanted to say specifically. But I'm not, you know, I didn't see a letter that was going around at the time but a lot of cinematographers about No, no actual weapons ever again, you know, no, real firearms on set the suit all the effects. And I'm not that guy. You know, I've probably photographed 2 million routes, you know, obviously blacks in, in, in my day, and she was she, you know, she was a friend of mine. Like I said, not a longtime friend, but she was a friend of mine. And it's a it's a horrible tragedy what happened. But I think what needs to happen is there just needs to be a safety officer, you know, there needs to be a position created that that oversees all safety, because you can't you can't put that on the abs, you know, you can't put that solely on the armor, you know, you there has to be a checks and balances. And that there needs to be a new position, I think created that is that is safety. And we've seen it for the last two years. During the pandemic, we have safety officers that have been going around, you know, and for the first year of it, it was put your face shield down, keep your mask on, put your face shield down, and now it's now it's just masks, but still, there have there has been an entire department created. So I think there should be a safety officer, you know, there should be that, that at least that one position that is in charge of the thing, the things that we all think the long squarely on the shoulders of the abs, you know, you can't you can't put it on them because that it's just not right. I think we need a new position that oversees all the stuff.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:13
I agree with you on that because, you know, working with a DS all my career, man, it's a big, they can handle a lot, man. They handle a lot on their shoulders, and they should be one layer of protection, but it shouldn't stop with them so that the ad should still have some sort of say in what's going on and let everybody know. And you know, I'm shooting on set and he stopped it said, Hey, we've got a live live arm on set. Everyone be aware, this is it. This is that I get that part. And the armor should definitely also have, you know, have some sort of another layer of protection. But there should be the last stop gap. Someone who just finally goes, let me see the gun. Let me check it, make sure everything's good. All right, and go for it. You know, I've done both of I've worked with live rounds, and I've worked with VFX you know, the airsoft guns, and, you know, it's it. Can it be done? Yeah. But I,

David Klein 1:14:13
Here's the problem I have with Alex you know, even even a quarter load blank or a half load blank. An actor doesn't react to the way they act react to a full blank. You know, I don't even I don't like how it flows. I don't like quarter loads. I like full of blanks, because that's that gives them the correct reaction from the gun for them to respond to you know, and that's that's exactly and that's, that's my main thing. And like I said, you know, I hate it when people say I've been in this business for this amount of time. They usually lose me when they say that but I have photographed a lot. A lot of blank rounds and blanks and never had an issue never had a problem.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:56
I mean listen and I got called by variety in Hollywood for You know, quotes and trying to, you know, the asking my opinion on what was going on and I will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. said, Listen, guys, and they got this from a few other industry vets who said, how many stunt men have had been hurt in the course of the last 100 years on a set? Do we now do away with all stunts and do everything virtually? No, their safety, there was mistakes, you know, what happened in the twilight zone? You know, that horrible, that horrible accident that happened there? And there's so many other you list, you know, accidents that happen in the State Department. Things happen sometimes. But there has to you can't just wash everything away.

David Klein 1:15:46
Like, you can't, and I'm sorry to interrupt you. But I'd be willing to bet. I'd be willing to bet the Condor lighting cranes have hurt more people in the last 10 years than stunts. Have you ever been agreed? We have so many new there are so many new, you know, new safety rules and regulations regarding condors all the time. You know, I remember back in the day when they didn't need a harness.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:15
I remember I remember. Oh, just remember, you remember the cranes? How about the cranes when you're sitting down? I mean, those long cranes with the camera at the top, and you see the pictures? And I got up on one of those plans? Once I'm like, where's my seat belt? Are you are you? No, I'm not doing this. I'll do this from the bottom. I'm not gonna do this.

David Klein 1:16:33
Well, you know, going back to the 90s, Alex, we used a lot of those cranes, you know, the Chapman, the Titans, the Nikes, all that stuff. Because they were so much cheaper, when the remote heads were new, you know, remote heads were coming out in the late 80s, early 90s. And, and so they're very expensive. So we rode those trains all the time, and there usually is usually our seat belts.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:55
Just cheaper

David Klein 1:16:57
But you are you're up there, you know, you're 50 feet in the air or whatever it is, like, wow, this is this is, you know, it's the most treacherous thing I've probably done, aside from, you know, being being in stock cars, you know, as a camera operator being sent cars is pretty wild, too. But along with that, I've been, you know, what's more dangerous than any of the any of the work with blanks that I've done over the years.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:22
Wow, man! Well, I hope that I hope that there is some changes made, I think there will be I hope they're not just a knee jerk reaction, I hope there's a really thoughtful way of moving forward with it. Because, like, I agree with you, 100%, I think there has to be some sort of position created to help this to help this scenario, because obviously, there's a problem, especially with so many low budget, non union, you know, situations, which I've been involved with a lot in my in my day, I get that. And it's a while it's a little wild, wild west, no pun intended, because that was a question. But it's a little bit wild, wild west, in the sense that, oh, yeah, we'll do this, it's gonna cost too much, we're not going to do that. And there has to be some sort of rules has to,

David Klein 1:18:05
There has to be an account, you know, accountable accountability. And I think the way to do it is to assign a person to, you know, overall safety, as we've been during the pandemic, you know, our COVID safety officers will will give a speech, you know, to us about mask wearing and social distancing, and all that stuff. And so, it's easily done, you know, that position is easily created. And I know everything comes with a price tag, but there's no price tag as big as the one. You know. What? Oh, no, that's bad. You know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 1:18:39
Amen, brother. Amen. I appreciate it. I appreciate you will be willing to talk about that and bring that out to light. Now, I want to ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests now. Yeah. What advice would you give a young cinematographer or filmmaker trying to break into this vicious business?

David Klein 1:18:58
Still fucking do it! An actual an actuality, you know, I would say, take a long, hard look at this industry and really think long and hard about whether you want to commit this much of your life to to this because it'll take every every minute that you get this industry will take every minute, every hour that you give it and then so think long and hard about it and because none of them will listen to that piece of advice. I will then say, you know, you gotta get out there and work you have to learn. As I said, before everybody on a film set everybody in life knows something that you don't So learn from them, you know, and when you're when you're new in the business, you have to just get on set every in any every way that you can, because you'll learn more in a day on set, you know, being that fly on the wall, then you will In a year of film school, you know, at least in terms of the day to day hands on practical way of telling stories, you know, and that's what it all comes down to.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:13
Absolutely no, I learned more during my internship at Universal Studios, Florida than I did in going to go into my college. I would skip school just to go and hang out on on stages and just watched the grips going, go on tangled that cable, and I'm like, All right. All right. Um, this is so cool. You mean that big pile over there? That's been sitting there since 1976? That pile of cable? Okay, sure. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

David Klein 1:20:44
You know, I think and we, we touched on it earlier is, I think the longest lesson it took me to learn is that is to get out of the way, you know, and that there is an elegance and simplicity and the you know, don't, don't, don't lie things just to light them, you gotta you got to serve the story, you have to be telling the story, or all the experience, and all the knowledge that you have is irrelevant, you know, and all the slick lighting that you can do is irrelevant. You know, unless you're serving that story, if you want to be, you know, if you want to shoot just just slick images, then then do commercials. Absolutely. You know, because that's what they're all about. And that in and of itself is telling you a story as well, it's telling you a story of how to buy Bud Light, or whatever it is. And so it has to be flashy in in your face and and you know, high key and, and whatever else it is, but but just just tell the story and otherwise get out of the way, you know, be the silence in between the notes.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:54
And three of your favorite films of all time?

David Klein 1:21:57
Ooh, that's a tough one. I gotta say Blade Runner. That's that's one of the films they got me in this into this business in this industry. And not only do I think it's a great movie, but it it it looks amazing. And it's look is relentless, relentlessly devoted to its story. I mean, it's it's creating that world of what was it 2019 Los Angeles.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:27
Not too far off. Not too far off. I'm still waiting for the Jetsons.

David Klein 1:22:39
But it is relentlessly devoted to its story, the look a bit it's after that kind of target. Three favorite movies. There are so many. Number two, I'd say everything that Conrad Hall ever shot. You know, everything and just about anything. You know. I've been devoted to studying his his work for a long time. And

Alex Ferrari 1:23:03
He did Bobby Fischer. Right?

David Klein 1:23:07
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, again, talk about somebody who was relentlessly devoted to telling the story. You know, it's some of the things that he did with his lining, I still blowing my mind. And I don't know how he did it, or where he came where the idea came from. And I don't know that he knew either. It seems like he was somebody that that didn't shoot from the hip. But, you know, it all came from from the gut from the heart. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:23:34
He was channeling, he was channeling somebody.

David Klein 1:23:37
That's for sure. That's for sure. So, you know, that takes up my next two answers. I think it's all of his movies. Otherwise, it's it's so hard. It's so I mean, would you choose something like Susan, can you choose something? You know, like, like, 1917? Even, you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:23:54
There's, there's too many. There's too many. Well, that's, that's a good, that's a good, good start. And can you tell us what you're up to next?

David Klein 1:24:04
I'm prepping a new Disney Plus series yet to be announced

Alex Ferrari 1:24:14
Yet to be announcedokay. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. So it's going to be the Jar Jar series. I know. I know what it is. It's a Jar Jar series. You could just you don't have to admit it. No, it's the Jar Jar series. Rather than it has been an absolute honor and privilege talking to you, man. It has been so much fun. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us and the tribe today and continued success. Brother, you're you're an inspiration out there for us, man. So thank you.

David Klein 1:24:42
Thank you, Alex. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 391: Lighting for David Fincher & Michael Mann with Erik Messerschmidt

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:14
I'd like to welcome to the show, Erik Messerschmidt. Did I get it right, sir?

Erik Messerschmidt 0:31
You sure did.

Alex Ferrari 0:33
I appreciate it. Man. Thanks so much for coming on the show, brother.

Erik Messerschmidt 0:37
Thanks so much for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:40
So you've, you've done a few things in the business. So far? You know, you're a young man, and you've you've been playing with some bills, some heavy hitters over over the course of your career. It's pretty interesting.

Erik Messerschmidt 0:52
I've been really fortunate. Yeah, I've been I've been I've been really fortunate to work with some great people, for sure.

Alex Ferrari 0:58
Without question, so my first question is, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity? That is the film business?

Erik Messerschmidt 1:08
Well, you know, I, I was a kid that loves to make stuff, you know, I love to take things apart, I love to build things I was, I was terrible athlete. But I was creative. And I like to take photographs. And I like to paint and I like to play music. And I was you know, I was always doing stuff. And I got involved in in theater really early when I was kid. And I was I was never really interested in performing. But I was always interested in doing stuff behind the scenes. And that kind of led led me to a life in the movies, I think, you know, to some degree, I liked the camaraderie that I liked the the shared experience of it. And, you know, when it came time to go to college and think about what I wanted to do with my life, it just sort of seemed like a, like a fit. And honestly, it wasn't so much about the work and the beginning, it was about the experience, you know, it's about doing stuff with people, really, you know, sort of, like, you know, photography in the beginning really interested me, but it's, it's a it's a solo occupation, for the most part, you know, in most cases anyway, it's like, it's just you and your camera, which I think can be really meditative. But but it wasn't really what I want. And I wanted, I wanted to experience with a team, you know, so I just kind of landed in, in cinema, I guess, you know, went to film school and, and came out on the other end, trying to figure out what to do the next 40 years of my life or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 2:51
Now you came up in a time where you really needed to kind of go through the mentoring process, in the scope of like, you'd get on set, someone takes you under their wing, and you might have learned some stuff in film school, but it really starts it's all the film said. And you've kind of worked your way up and you did a lot of gaffing work you did second unit work until you became a cinematographer. On your own right. And so many filmmakers today, especially cinemabox young cinematographer said they just come out and they're like, I'm a cinematographer. Because I have a Canberra and and then I've worked with some of them, and I go, Oh, you you've never seen Blade Runner. Okay, then. It's like, it's an interesting time. Because now, when you and I were coming up, because we're similar vintage, a slightly bit older than you, but a similar vintage. You know, it was so expensive, man, everything was so damn expensive. The gear was so expensive, and, and you couldn't get access to this stuff. So you really couldn't practice on your own. And I'm assuming you came up on film as well.

Erik Messerschmidt 3:53
I did. I did. Yeah. I mean, I, my, my generation of film students, you know, we didn't have HD cameras, or I don't think, you know, when I was in school, even had the digital camera wasn't even part of the conversation. You know, we were processing 16 millimeter film or, you know, the, the senior students and the MFA students were shooting in 35. And, you know, it was like an investment to make a movie at that time. I mean, it's still a it's obviously but, but for us, you know, it's like, you had to two cans, you know, to do 400 foot rolls of 60 millimeter and you had to skirt counted, you know,

Alex Ferrari 4:28
Ohh, but every time you know, I know, every time you heard that little sting, like that's money. That's money just flowing now. Yeah. roll and roll and roll.

Erik Messerschmidt 4:40
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it was like back when rehearsal meant something. You know, I, you know, I, I think I'm really glad I had that experience. I'm glad I did it that way. And, you know, I I think it's important, you know, I mean, I know I don't think that what We do or certainly what I do. For A Living can be learned in school. I mean, there's something you know, it's like you learn things like how to, you know, you kind of learn how to how to react to imagery, I think and how to critique imagery and how to think about movies and how to think about, you know, the big picture idea of storytelling and stuff to some degree in film school, and you learn about your own tastes and what you're attracted to, and that kind of thing and how to communicate with other people, you know, all those skills that are incredibly important. But, but you don't learn much technique and film school, I, you know, because you just don't have enough time. You know, it's like, it's like, a film set is a complex environment, you know, it's, it's, it's an environment of, of technology and equipment, and it's math and science. And it's also personality, you know, storytelling and creativity. And it's, it takes time, I think, to learn how all those things congeal, you know, and how to navigate it. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I really believe that the kind of the mentorship idea or the idea of matriculating through the processes is a really good one. It's something worth protecting, you know, I mean, I came out of film school, and I was like, I'm a cinematographer. You know, I had business cards, I think so, I mean, prefer

Alex Ferrari 6:24
business. That's all you need is a business card. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Erik Messerschmidt 6:29
Fake it until you make it right. But you know, I, and I got to LA and, you know, I shot some music videos and some short films, and I was like, I'm gonna be a DP, and I'm gonna do it. And then, of course, the reality of life hit me and I had, you know, my parents, you know, we didn't have any money, I didn't come from a wealthy family, my, you know, my parents or teachers and librarian, you know, it's like, we, so I, you know, I kind of had to make it on my own to some degree, you know, and figure out how to make a living and pay my rent and all that stuff. And, and, in the end, I wouldn't have tried, I wouldn't trade it for the world. You know, I mean, I got to meet so many great people. And I, I learned from them, you know, you absorb their, their technique and their, their process. And I think that's crucial. It's certainly been incredibly important in my life.

Alex Ferrari 7:14
Yeah, you worked on as, as you started really coming up as a gaffer. And you did you gaffed on a lot of big shows. I mean, you worked on Ant Man. I know with Russell Russell did and with Russell, who is the sweetest human being ever,

Erik Messerschmidt 7:28
like, lovely. Yeah, he

Alex Ferrari 7:29
is such a lovely, soft spoken guy. And I'm like, how did you work with James Cameron for? Like, how those two personalities work, man? And he's like, I'll tell you some stuff off air. But well, I'm sure you've, I'm sure you've heard a couple stories as well. But but as a gap, so as a gaffer, can you explain to everybody what it meant to come up as a gaffer? Because the DPS I've worked with in my career, who came up as gaffers, I find, are so well versed on set, they just, there's just a different way of looking at the set how to do a set up, you've already been doing what you're telling somebody else to do? Because you're like, yeah, just set that over here to the end, they just do their thing? How did I prepare you? How did that prepare you to be a DP? Well, you know, I think

Erik Messerschmidt 8:21
there's a couple things. And look, everyone's got their own process, and everyone has their own, you know, their, their own path. And for me, I was, you know, I was lucky, I liked lighting, you know, I liked the I liked the stuff, initial, you know, like the process of being on a set and getting in the mix of it, you know, you know, when, when your Gaffer, you're in the movie quite early, you know, you're, you're, you're in a lot of the early conversations, depending on how much the Director of Photography chooses to involve you. You're, you know, you're often on the early scouts, you're certainly on the tech scouts, you're in a production office, you're negotiating with the producers, you're negotiating for equipment and labor resources and stuff. And you're, you're oftentimes in meetings with the director and trying to figure out how to accomplish certain things and you're in a great position to observe those conversations happen, as well as you know, a bit of a fly on the wall in a way that, you know, camera operators and assistants are not, you know, your, your camera operator, you're rarely on a tech Scout, you're very rarely in the office and prep. And, you know, you may have intimate conversations with a DP and the director about how they're gonna approach certain things. But, but, but I think when you're a gaffer, you're really kind of in the thick of it. And for that, you know, for me anyway, it was incredibly helpful to learn how to prep and how to, you know, learning how to read blueprints and draft and how to communicate with the art department. You know, your, you know, as I was a gaffer, I spent a lot of time in production designers, offices and art directors offices and sitting in there with a draftsman and you know, your, your, you know, you learn about all that stuff, and you have to get Good adequately, if you're going to survive, you know, so that, you know that process and that that part of my life was was incredibly helpful to me. And then, of course, you know, that's doesn't even include all the conversations you have with the DEP in Premiere, then also obviously, during, you know, during, during the shoot, you know, when you're shooting, you're, you know, at least when I'm a DP, my closest allies, always my Gaffer, you know, I'm on there, the person, you know, they're, you know, kind of the, the most effective weapon I have, and then also, you know, the shoulder that I cry on most cases, you know, so, you know, because they, they're sort of, you know, the gaffer isn't isn't a really good position to kind of observe objectively about what's going on in on a set, you know, the operators often in the mix, they're there with the, the actors, they're there with the director, they're in there, they're working every shot, and there's hyper involved, and the gaffer is, you know, working in the setup and getting a setup, right, and then they're in a position to kind of step back and watch the shot, take shape. And so I find the gaffer is really good person to kind of turn to for objection, objective feedback of what's going on and how the shot is taking shape, and what they think could be improved and all that stuff. I mean, you know, not not always even just in lighting, just in terms of generally what we're doing, you know, as filmmakers. And so, you know, I always when I look for a gaffer, you know, what I look for filmmaker first and foremost, you know, beyond what their what the lighting skill might be, or their personnel management skill is, you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:42
now, there's,

Erik Messerschmidt 11:44
I'm really glad I came up that way, you know, no question, no

Alex Ferrari 11:47
question. And there's something that that they don't talk about very often, anywhere, let alone in film school, is the politics on set. There are politics that you have to deal with, within the crew, there's different politics groups, there's the producers and the directors, but even just within the camera department, there's politics, they, you know, and on set and on, you know, the production designer, how do you approach dealing, because I'm assuming it hasn't always been a smooth, smooth a coast, the entire career, you've had, you've, you've probably run across some politics on set and how to deal with it and how to properly you know, not step on people's toes and how to even fight for your own, you know, as a DP even fight for your own vision, while still serving the director. But there might be other departments that are pushing on you, because it's easier for them, but might not serve this the movie, there's all sorts of agendas on set that they just people don't talk about. So can you kind of discuss that a little bit without obviously, naming apps?

Erik Messerschmidt 12:47
Sure, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, film set, film set is full of creative people, you know, people get movie business because they, they want to, they want contribute, you know, and they, they want to participate. And you know, I think I think generally people in movies sets and film crew, they have the best intentions, you know, generally people you know, they really want to make a great movie, they want to, they want to do the work, they want to participate, but also, you know, a lot of the work is sometimes just service job, you know, move this from here to there, do this, do that, and that can happen. You know, for someone in my position with a director, you know, if you're paired with a really strong director, and I just need to put a 29 millimeter lens here, that's the shot 29 millimeter lens here, you know, and you may personally think God would be so much better on 35 and pull back a little bit, you know, be you have to be careful about you know, when you assert yourself, you know, and you have to read the broom and understand what's going on and sort of you know it's, you know, I think it's about timing you know, and you're right it's it's there are people with agendas and there are people that desperately want to be heard and there are people who who are people who get frustrated when their voice is not heard, you know, and and and then sometimes you have to deal with that you know, and and it's you know, it's that is part of the job for sure, you know, I mean there's there's a bit of air traffic control and personnel you mentioned being a director photography, especially in a bigger movie, you know, where there's, you know, you might have an operator who's very outspoken and wants to communicate straight with the director you have to figure out how to when to assert yourself into that conversation when to allow that conversation to happen, how involved you want to get if you know decisions are being made that are outside of your you know, what you think might be appropriate for the scene when to interject without making someone feel bad, etc. You know, it's it can be complicated. You know, it happens for production designers to you know, so how do you, if you're director photography, how much ownership Do you want to take over things like color palette in our costume designers, production vendors to you know, you sort of have, you know, the direct photography, production design and costume designer are often tasked to sort of forming an aesthetic, the aesthetic principles of the movie, you know, you know, obviously, with the help, and with the leadership of Director, but you're, you know, in many cases that, you know, those three people, I think, end up sharing that responsibility, and to be honest with you, probably the Director of Photography gets a disproportion amount of which really should go. In many cases that should be more equally shared, I think, but, you know, it's, it's, it's challenging, you know, you I think you hope that you, you end up with enough people who are generous and thoughtful and are able to share themselves creatively, you know, the, the, you don't run into a lot of problems, it's not to say that they don't exist. And, you know, I also think that there's something to be said, for debate and disagreement, you know, on a set, you know, it's like, some of the best work I've done has come because a production designer, and I disagreed about a direction to go on a particular set, or a particular way to design something or, you know, especially like, complicated physical effects, you know, sort of things like that need, that, you know, there's that are different than a couple of walls in the camera, you know, it's those. Oftentimes, if, you know, two people meet and are strong minded, it's like, well, let's do this. Now, I think we should do this. And then, you know, if it's a safe space creatively, then you work something out if it's not a safe space, that's where it gets ugly, you know. But I think, you know, that's sort of the idea of it being a place for ideas that you can then, you know, debate is important. But I don't know centers your question. I mean,

Alex Ferrari 17:00
no, it is no, no, no, it's it's a complicated thing. It's a very tough, you're on eggshells kind of situation. And it is a case by case basis. Like as a cinematographer, you know, when you're working with a strong director, and you have worked and are currently working with two of the strongest directors in the business, Michael Mann and David Fincher on your on to have two projects are coming out next year. I mean, they're really strong directors, Fincher, specifically, you know, I had had your friend and colleague Jeff Corona worth on. And you know, I talked all about like, Dave is legendary for being so technically precise with everything. And he's, he almost has a Kubrick esque vibe to him in the sense that he could maybe like the damn thing himself, like Kubrick used to be able to do so technically good stuff. You know what I mean? So how do you as a cinematographer approach working with someone like David, cuz I know you've worked with 900 which, by the way, gorgeous love that. Please tell me. Another season is coming. Soon, please. I want another season. I think I'm not the only one. We all want another seats.

Erik Messerschmidt 18:11
Me too. I'm with you, man. I'm with you. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 18:14
But like, how do you like, that was a different? That was a different scenario. I think that was kind of when you first started to work with David directly as a cinematographer, correct?

Erik Messerschmidt 18:23
That's right. Yeah, that's right. So how did you? I, you know, I, I had seen Jeff work with David and I, you know, I mean, I have Jeff ism is an incredible mentor to me, you know, I mean, I owe him so much. And, and, you know, Jeff is a real master at managing the set and managing the environment and supporting the director he's working with, you know, I mean, I've worked with Jeff, when I was a gaffer, I've worked with Jeff on with many other directors, other than David as well, you know, and Jeff is always consistent at making, you know, he's protects the director and, and, and supports them in whatever way he you know, he can find that they need support. And I think that's something I learned from Jeff is, is, you know, the, the role of a cinematographer is fluid. And it's not a binary black and white thing. It's not like, Okay, I do this and you do this, it's, it's, it's much broader than that. And I think part of it is you you, you meet someone, you talk to them, and then your, your first day on the set, you really learn what it is they need from you. Or, you know, and they don't always tell you, you know, I mean, I think is some directors you know, often think they need something other than what they what they actually need to, you know, I mean, they're there. They're not always the best people at stepping back and observing what it is how best they need to be supported, you know, I mean, I think None of us really are, you know, you sort of have to inquire and ask ask him, you know, what happened there, you know. But, you know, David is not that case, Dave is extremely good at sort of recognizing where he needs help and what he, what he needs. You know, Dave is an extraordinary communicator, he's very clear and concise, and, you know, his tremendous economy language. So you can say, quite clearly clearly about what he what he wants to accomplish. But he's also, you know, he's, he's been, I think, a bit mistreated because he is incredibly collaborative. At least that's been my experience with him are the same thing, you know, very open to ideas. And yeah, and, and excited about ideas and wants people to bring ideas to the table, he just wants them to, he wants really a date ideas to be presented in a in a reasonable way, with enough time to act on them, you know.

Alex Ferrari 20:57
And helicopter shot right here.

Erik Messerschmidt 21:00
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, no, it's like, I think that's, you know, that's really what you want a director is you want someone who has, who has a vision, who has a plan, who says, Okay, we're gonna do this, and this, and this, and this. And if there's room for improvement, or room for other ideas, you can voice them when it's appropriate. And they could, you know, it's, it's up to the director about whether or not they're going to take that idea or not, you know, like, I don't think of my job as being one necessarily that that requires me taking ownership of anything. I mean, I think it's like, you know, I want a film I'm working on to be a dictatorship. I mean, I think that that's where the best work gets done. Honestly, it should be a benevolent, benevolent, you know, it should be ideally, but, you know, it's, it's, I hope that I, you know, I come and approach something, and I, and the director I'm working with, has brought me there, because they, they, like, are interested in my point of view as well, you know, so So I want to bring something to the party. And and I think, you know, it's certainly my relationship with David has been that it's like, we, you know, we make a very good team in terms of evaluating what's going on in the set and, and bifurcating our collective responsibility. So even though and you're absolutely right, David could for sure, show up and, and talk directly to the gaffer and say, put that light there, put that right there to, you know, whatever. But he also knows that I have a skill, and I have a communication method with the gaffer and I have taste, and I have a point of view that, you know, for whatever reason, he sometimes likes and is willing to let me run with, and then if he doesn't, like something, he points it out. And that's okay. You know, I mean, that's, I think that's part of the job, and it's really a lot of it is, is helping the director, you know, hold the walls up of their sandbox so that they can play, you know, and right. And that's the way I try to look at it, you know, as much as I can, I mean, it's ego always gets in the way a little bit, you want it, you know, you really want it. Sometimes you feel strongly about whatever it is you're going to do. And you know, and you you know, if you know if it seems appropriate you debate and if it's, you know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you know, you're not the director, and that's how it is.

Alex Ferrari 23:21
And I think you're right, I think you said that David kind of gets a bad rap. Sometimes I think it's because of the legendary number of takes he takes and that thing that kind of has been like the, the mythology of the myth of working with David like you're gonna do, it's like Kubrick, again, we'll go back to Kubrick, you're going to do 70, you're going to do 70 takes and he might take it, take three, but he's going to push you to 70. Because that's just the way his process is. And from someone who's worked with him, is that true? He does do 62 extra stuff, every take of everything. I mean, he will.

Erik Messerschmidt 23:58
I mean, David David wants to do until it's right. And I think he should, you know, I think absolutely should I mean, and, and you know, it's like, Look, I've been in a DI suite where we haven't done it. Right. And it's painful. Oh, you know, yeah. You know, and, and, you know, no, nobody walks out of the movie theater and says, at least they made their day. That's so great.

Alex Ferrari 24:25
You should actually get T shirts made and give it to give it to the department. And just like no one looks at the theater and say, Oh, they at least they made their day. Yes, you're absolutely right. But that's that's why but that's why it's me that's why his movies look the way they look and that's why they are the way they are it's I mean, there's something really magical about a Fincher from all the way back to you know, from seven even alien three with all the problems he had with that but seven and Fight Club and the game and, and all of those films. There's so much specific almost, when I look at him because I'm a huge David Fincher fan. He's almost surgical, with how he approaches telling the story. It's almost like a surgical scalpel almost like it's so clean and every edge is almost done. Right. And I think that just comes from 10,000 commercials and music videos he shot before he ever got onto a film set. Yeah. Yeah, I

Erik Messerschmidt 25:29
mean, look, it's like, I think I would what is important to appreciate about David and I think any any filmmaker is that the that? You know, David, in particular, though, is very aware of film technique and film grammar, and kind of, you know, the, the, the, he's, he's incredibly cinema literate. So if you said to David, hey, I need you to go out. And let's, let's take this, you're gonna take this commercial, but I needed done in the style of Gianluca, Don, you could absolutely do it, you know, it's like, David's, David's choice of technique is, is is in art. You know, I think. And, you know, I think I think people discount and it's, and I wish it was taught more in cinema is the idea of this kind of balance between between intent and working practice, you know, the idea that you have, you have, you know, the Kubrick methodology of like, this is the shot, I'm going to shoot, and it's going to be this shot, it's gonna be on a 2027 millimeter lens. And the focus is going to be here, and I'm gonna get it until it's perfect, right. And it might take all day, but I don't care because I need this shot. And then on the other, to have a kind of French New Wave or Cassavetes or whatever you want to call it. If this kind of Veritate idea of like, well, let's just go out and shoot, you know, Lars von Trier kind of thing. Like, let's just go out and shoot and be spontaneous and exciting and fun. And we're gonna get some stuff and we'll figure it out in the editing room, and there's some intent there. But you know, they're both completely valid ways to make a movie. But But both of them have a tremendous effect aesthetically on the movie. You know, and, and so it's so your point is quite right. Like you don't get the David Fincher look, once you do it until it's perfect.

Alex Ferrari 27:23
Did you imagine a John Cassavetes style David Fincher film? Can you imagine? That would be like, just David Cameron. No. But you know, the other,

Erik Messerschmidt 27:36
the other side is true, too, you know, if you you so it's, I think that you know, you have to kind of if there isn't enough attention made towards the environment of the set and the methodology through which you make the set has has a huge bearing on how the movie feels emotionally. You know, I mean, we love to talk about shots and in film school they live in okay, we do this handheld, and it will be exciting. What's way more nuanced than that, you know? Because you could do you know, I mean, there's handheld shots and and you know, the great example I was not handheld actually but some a dolly but you know, the shot include, or Jane Fonda is walking through the, through the through the club and she's she's eyeing or a shutter and it looks spontaneous, you know, that shot looks like it's just a walk through the club chain, and we're gonna follow you, we're going to pull back on the dolly and it's like, no, it's been if you watch it a couple times, you realize how incredibly rehearsed it is. You know, and, and, and that's, you know, I think that's the great example of like, the perfect card trick of cinema is like making someone believe they've seen something spontaneous, when in fact, it's incredibly rehearsed, you know, and David is, is, you know, better than anyone I know, at exactly that.

Alex Ferrari 28:50
Now, is there is there any story that you can share publicly? With? Have you and David working on said something fun, something like, I learned something that day by seeing him work, something that you can share publicly? We could talk after hour after we've hit the record button off, we could talk about other ones?

Erik Messerschmidt 29:12
I you know, think about that a little bit. I yeah, probably, I mean, there's every day, you know, we're sort of confronted with with stuff. I mean, it's like you know, I mean,

Alex Ferrari 29:25
well, let me let me ask you this. Let me let me ask you this. What was the what was the worst day for you as a cinematographer? On on working with David that you felt like the entire world was going to come crashing down around you? Which we all have those days on set. And how did you how did you overcome those days and it could have been anything from a camera foot fell on the lake to the actor didn't come out of the thing are the sun's going down? We're losing the light. What is what was that day for you and David? Sure.

Erik Messerschmidt 29:53
It was, you know, the first day we the first day of shooting on manque. We we had we had had plan, we were sort of like we had we had a plan that that, that MGM and Paramount would have two different looks. The Paramount would be this sort of soft lit very, like gray environment. And it was because it was sort of the low rent at the time. And MGM would be glamorous and hard lit and lots of contrasts. And, and that's how we would you know, and that was a conversation we'd had a lot in the beginning of the movie, you know, like in the prep, we talked about and talk. And then we, you know, implemented a bunch of lighting plans as a result. And the first thing we shot a man because the scene where, where Gary Oldman is gambling with his buddies in the writers room, and they're spinning the spin the coin, there's a whole there's a whole kind of bit with them. And they've got a, they've got to show girl who's who's who's they have a, they have a secretary who's dressed as a show, girl, it's the sort of like, it's it, there's, you know, levity in the scene, and it's sort of silly, you know, and we're going to do it softly. And we're just going to tempt the windows, blow them out of the soft sideline, you know, and that's what we did. And we showed up. We rehearsed the scene the day before, and it was lit. And, you know, we looked at it, and then we started shooting. And, and at lunchtime, David pulled me aside, this is not working. This is working is it's wrong, this is wrong. And, you know, I'm quite literal person generally, and and immediately internalized it, you know, it's me. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, and really what it was, was, it was a conversation of like, hey, we made this decision to do it this way. And we can't do it this way. We need to, we need to change change the look. And, you know, of course, yeah, I mean, I started feeling oh, my god, what have I done, but then it's, you know, it was a, it was a decision that we had made that that that was wrong, and he was quite right, actually, you know. And so we we quickly moved over to the second scene, we shot and they're playing cards, and it's, and it was intended to be this kind of very dramatic splashes of light. And there's patterns on everybody's face. And it's sort of classic noir kind of style lighting with a lot of smoke. And so, okay, so we'll go, we'll pivot, we'll shoot the scene, the next day, we're going to go back and shoot this differently. And he you know, so we finished the first scene, he was really happy when they finish the second seems quite happy with it. And then we went back, and we started talking about how we could do it differently. And, and, you know, we backed it all up, and we put hard light out through the, through the windows instead and talking, I explained to him what, what I thought we could do differently. And then we shot the scene, and it worked great, you know, but it's sort of like it, it was that moment of failure, you know, sort of like, Oh, my God, what have we done, you know, but in actuality, the conversation was really it was just, you know, between two people trying to figure out what what could be improved, you know, and that's, that's one of the great things about David is he's very open like that when it's not working.

Alex Ferrari 32:59
And it's so funny, because I'm, I'm sure there's other cinematographers listening right now going, if I would have shot a scene with David Fincher and then went to lunch, and he came up to me at lunch, and I came in, yeah, first half day didn't work at all. I can only imagine the internal Oh, my God, because I mean, I've been around DPS all my career. I know how they think they're like, holy crap, I've, I've screwed this film up. And that's at, let's say, my level. Can you imagine if David Fincher walks up? Or Michael Mann rocks up? Or, or or Joseph, up somebody like some of these big directors and say something like that. But it automatic isn't funny how you automatically thought just for? It's me. But it was it was a It's not that you like underexposed something that is unusable. No, we exactly executed what we had planned to do. But it is not working. Stylistically, it's not like there was a problem with your technique. What you what you went after you got, but it's not working. That but you internalize the difference.

Erik Messerschmidt 34:01
Yeah, of course. I mean, because it's, you know, it's, I think, also, when you're cinematographer, you are, I think, to be to be a working cinematographer. You have to these days, you have to be practical, you have to be responsible and practical and thoughtful. And you have to sort of, you know, the, the cost of the day on a major motion picture is expensive, you know, and it's, you want to use your resources wisely, and you want to make the right choice, you know, and, you know, the idea of reshooting something, because because it doesn't look the way the director wants it to look is it you know, immediately feels like failure? You know, I actually, I quite think that's it's actually the opposite. I mean, I think that the sort of that is the process of developing and creating something with someone is, is learning about what's working, what's not in in the end, because we sort of looked at it together and we thought it we thought about what could be improved. It opened up a lot of Thanks for us on that film and, and help. And, and also, it ultimately made us better collaborators and sort of it made it, you know, improve the film enormously. And so it was like, it just, you know, it takes fortitude to make that decision and that moment because there was technically nothing wrong with the scene, it just didn't look quite right. It didn't. All the camera direction we did is exactly the same, you know, the performances are quite similar to you know, I mean, it's like it's not like, like you say it felt like it was under mistaken, you know, slightly underexposed, three stops or something.

Alex Ferrari 35:38
Exactly. I gotta ask you, because you're working on some pretty big budgets right now. I mean, the movie you're doing with David the killer? I'm sure not an independent film. And the one you're working with, with Michael Mann, Ferrari, which, obviously I have to go see. It's my, my grandfather's company. But then, you know, you're talking about massive budgets, the pressures heavy on a normal cinematographer. On a basic budget, there's a lot of people asking you things on a director as well. But you know, your, your department, what's it like dealing with not just five people, you, I'm assuming your crew is fairly massive, and you've got a lot of things going on, and then you've got responsibilities here and there. And then, like you were saying costs and, and make it, it almost seems like the pressure of all the crap that you have to deal with, overpowers the creative pressure almost. So there's a balance that you have to do. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Erik Messerschmidt 36:45
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, you're right. It's, it's, I think that's really where the importance prep comes in. And, you know, it's, I believe, you make the movie and the prep, and, you know, if you're, if you do it right here, you know, you're coloring the lines, when you're shooting, it doesn't mean that there isn't room to go outside the lines occasionally and make adjustments, but it's, you know, it makes all that stuff easier. If you know, where you're going in the prep, and you sort of have, you know, you have a visual plan, you have, you know, you have a logistical plan about how you're going to move equipment and people and what your locations are going to be what your schedule is, it's, it makes all that stuff substantially easier. You know, it's it's complicated, if you if you haven't done that, obviously, and then you sort of are you're making the making the creative decisions and the aesthetic, sort of, you know, overarching artistic stuff, at the same time, you're trying to solve logistical problems and to meet, you know, that's a real recipe for disaster. So, you know, if you can, if you can prep the movie in advance with enough kind of understanding of what's going to happen, and, you know, with a little bit of contingency for weather, whatever, then it alleviates a lot of that stress, but you're right, I mean, you know, a lot of the job on a bigger movie, like that is is just personality management and people management and, you know, you're sort of, you're trying to get people pointed in the right direction, you know, I mean, the movie I did with Michael, you know, we had really big camera department, we're usually in a shooting three or four cameras at any given time. And so, you know, it's, you're not in a position necessarily, where you can control every frame, you know, I mean, what David and I, it's like, we kind of set every shot together, and we're like, okay, we're into this, and we're gonna do this, we're gonna, you know, we're picking each lens together and going through, okay, this is the camera and this is the camera and then that, you know, not every movies like that, you know? Sure. And, and sometimes they wish they were, you know, I mean, it's sometimes it can spiral out of your grasp a little bit, you know, you have to clot back but um, but, you know, there's, there's a bit of kind of allowing things to happen, you pay out lead, and then you kind of pull it back when you can sort of try and figure out who's who's right for which shops and you know, it's it's a process of like, anything, you know, any kind of massive creative endeavor like that.

Alex Ferrari 39:11
Now, I do have to ask, man, is it a, was it a dream shooting manque in black and white, like how you just don't get that opportunity? In cinema today? Like, I'm sure you got called by tons of your cinematographer friends at the ASC going. So what was it like? It's like shooting, shooting black and white at that level. Just I mean, unless you're the Coen brothers that does it once in a blue moon. But that's generally studios just won't allow it. So this was not only black and white, it was black and white in the style of, of the Golden Age of Hollywood. So what was it like as creatively just living in that in that world of blacks and grays and whites and all that? Well,

Erik Messerschmidt 39:58
I you know, I mean, honestly, I was really intimidated? I can imagine. I, you know, I wanted to make the right choices, you know, I mean, it's, it's hard. It's like a, you know, I, I was at the time, I was particularly conscious of the fact that the black and white could easily become cliche, you know, and, and derivative of something, you know, it's just I didn't want it to be like, Oh, they're doing the Venetian blind thing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 40:26
painting the shadows on the wall now painting the shadows on the wall. Yeah.

Erik Messerschmidt 40:29
You know, so it's like, I think, you know, I was, sort of, you have the idea about what you're gonna go out and make, and then you're confronted with the, you know, the realities of the limitations and locations present to you, or the stage sets present to you. And you start, you know, it's like filmmaking is compromised, you know, so you're always convert into, you're always sort of coming to a coming to an intersection figuring out okay, A or B, I'll do this, I'll do this. And you sort of hope that the decisions that you make, in the broad sense, congeal enough to make something that's consistent, you know, it's because it's really hard to see the movie, you know, on day six. And I, you know, I, I think, you know, if I've learned anything from David, it's like, and Michael, actually, a lot of the great directors have worked for him. It's like, you have an idea and stick with it, you know, don't get cold feet, don't get you know, and I did you know, there were moments on bank where I was worried. And, man, I don't know, are we being bold enough? We may not. I went out and had a beer with David one night. And I said, I don't know, man, I got worried we're not being bold enough and worried people are going to be critical of it. And he was like, fuck them. Nobody's doing exactly what you should do. Just keep his hold, you know, hold the course. And it was, you know, at the time, it was exactly what I needed to hear it because I was getting insecure about what we were doing. And I wasn't sure exactly if it was right. But yeah, I mean, I mean, in terms of black and white, it was, I mean, God would incredible opportunity, you know, to do something that that very few people get to do, and something I really was excited to do. And something I quite honestly was not comfortable doing. When we you know, when we started that film, and I got more comfortable with it. And I did a ton of research. And I looked at a lot of images and lots of tests, and so figured out what it was we wanted to do. But we also we, you know, we wanted to make our own look to sort of our own style. And that was scary, you know, yeah, it was considered in the subject matter. You know, so like, I you know, I just felt I felt the weight of honor and Greg Talan. And, and Orson Welles and the film in the film community as a whole, you know, when we were making the movie, I really, you know, wanted to want it to be respectful to what, you know, the kind of importance of that movies. Well, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:50
I mean, Eric, I'm stressed out, as you're talking about, and I didn't shoot the damn thing. I mean, as you're talking, I'm like, Oh, my area, Orson Welles. And it's Citizen Kane. And, and every filmmaker in the world is gonna see this because everyone's seen Citizen Kane. And I can imagine you could just drive yourself mad. Thinking about this?

Erik Messerschmidt 43:13
Yeah, easily. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Or you can just go to work and have a good time. And

Alex Ferrari 43:18
you know, and it's another movie, and you just have to, you have to look at it. Like it's another movie. If not, you'll you'll psych yourself out without question. Now I do. You know, you are working with Michael Mann, or I'm not sure if you're, I think you're in post production at this point in that film. If I'm not mistaken,

Erik Messerschmidt 43:32
we can just watch. Yeah. So what

Alex Ferrari 43:35
I mean, Michael man is a legend, man. He's a legend. In our, in our business, and, you know, as well, legendary stories, you know, I was in Miami, when Miami Vice was going on. So and I came up in my room. So all I hear is about Michael Mann, Miami, Vice stories from all the old crew guys that I used to work with on the commercials today. Yeah, I was on there when Michael and Eddie almost came on it like you hear these stories about what happened back then. So what's it like collaborating with someone like Michael, because this is your first collaboration with him? Correct?

Erik Messerschmidt 44:11
Yeah, it was, I mean, you know, I don't really want to talk a lot about the movie because we just finished it and we just, we just made the sausage and now we're going to age it a little bit and a little while someone's going to cook it up, and then you guys are going to taste it and you have to let us know if we did any good, you know, but I you know, look, it's like the great thing about this job is coming in and and watching other people, you know, learning how other people make their movies. And, you know, as a cinematographer, I think it's your you know, it's your job to come in and, and kind of like I said earlier, they figure out how it is you can help you know, what is it this person needs from me? And it's often very different, you know, it's, it's, it's often you know, doesn't. And so there's, you know, there's a process of discovery, I think creatively with people and also just just straight up logistically about where, where does my cog fit within this machine. You know, and the thing about Michael is that he is probably the most tenacious person I know, I mean, he will fight for forever for his film, and he will fight for his actors, and he will fight for the you know, but most importantly, he fights for the story, and he fights for what he thinks is important for the scene. And nothing else matters. And I really admire that about him, you know, I mean, he, he is not distracted by the kind of incidental stuff that that, you know, me and my fellow cinematographers would go crazy about, if it detracts from something that is dramatically important to him. And I think, by the way, that he's, he's absolutely right about that. And it's something I really learned from him, is, you know, you protect the film and the story first, and, and, and all the other things are, are secondary. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting environment to participate in, and, you know, the kind of energy that that feeds is, is exciting, and sometimes complex and, and frenetic, but, but, you know, but Michael, you know, he's a, he's a force and, and he's, he's incredible, you know, and it's, and the thing is, you know, I have been fortunate to work with a few directors of his vintage and, and, you know, they, they, there's, there's something really special about working with people that have been through, you know, we're not talking 10,000 hours, we're talking 100,000 hours, you know, of, you know, understanding instead of a language understanding, blocking and thinking about the same thing about and then doing it their way, you know, and they're not distracted about, like, well, this is how you're split, you know, you need an over the shoulder, and then you need a two shot and you should get the pod and you know, Michael doesn't work that way. It's not, you know, he's, he's, he's working in, in his language exclusively. And, and that's, that's really cool, you know, because a lot of filmmakers, especially younger ones, will turn to you and say, Well, what do I need? Now? You know, how many shots to tell this scene or whatever, and you can have your opinion. But, but, you know, I think it's, you know, as cinematographers we're sort word failure to provide guidance and assistance, and, and, and interpret things visually and contribute. But but, you know, I think of all the directors that I admire, the ones who speak through the frame are my favorites. You know, the directors that really kind of our, you know, appreciate it, you know, approach it holistically, are, are the ones that I respond to the best and so, so I'm really cautious when I when I inject too much of my personal opinion, into a director's workflow, they haven't asked for it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 48:27
if I may piggyback on your sausage analogy, the, it's kind of like a great chef, who has made the sausage 1000 times the way that it's in the textbook. And now they're just, they're just kind of riffing. It's kind of doing like kind of jazz, in a sense. And like, well, well, you really need to put the meat in the casing first, as a no, I'm going to put the casing in the middle, I'm going to wrap the sausage or the meat around it. And then I'm going to bread it, and then I'm going to deep fry, and then there's the you're just approaching it a different ways. And everyone's like, Oh, wow. But he understands the basics of how to make or how to shoot a scene exactly how its textbook supposed to be done. But because he has so much understanding of the medium of the language, just like David, they could just riff and do whatever they you don't need a two shot. You don't need a once you can cut the whole damn thing on a long shot on 100 mil through a tree, and it works. You know, you're like, oh, but on the textbooks, any film school teacher would go, don't do that. But they just understand that language is like a Tarantino, like they understand the film language so well, that they just they riff, it's jazz. It's like watching jazz play and you are one of the collaborators in the band. Working with a master jazz players kind of like you know, if I may use jazz as an analogy. You're there and you're just like watching just go on. I handed him the trumpet, but holy cow, I didn't know he was going to Do

Erik Messerschmidt 50:00
that with it. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's like, yeah, you know, it's I mean, if you're going to run with the allow me to run with that analogy a little bit, it's like if you know, for playing jazz, then then then in that, you know, in those situations, I'm really just trying to make sure everybody's in tune. Oh, great. And you just want to make sure that we're just trying to, like, you know, it's like, okay, I get it. Now we're gonna go, Oh, we're going to do alright, cool, let's play Dr. Lewis around your little sharp, you know, like, let's just like just sort of attenuated a little bit. Enough. You know, and, you know, that's, that's a wonderful thing about this job is, is watching how people make movies and learning how they're different types of movies, you know, different ways to make movies. You know, and also learning about the kinds of movies that you want to make, you know, I mean, it's like, every time I finish a film, I think about the types of collaborators I'm going to seek out to, you know, and the types of work I'm interested in doing the things I'm less interested in doing. And, you know, I'm definitely someone you know, I quite like the kind of surgical type of filmmaking I like, puzzle pieces of figuring out how to, you know, you know, I, you know, Hitchcock is like, machine and filmmaker, you know, this sort of, like the puzzle of, of, you know, show the person seeing something and show the audience what they see, you know, even the, you know, it's a vast simplification of it, but um, you know, thinking about how to break a scene down into its bare bones and tell the story that way is is, is the type of filmmaking at the moment anyway, that I'm interested in. But you got some notes like,

Alex Ferrari 51:51
you got some good collaborators, that kind of, I mean, David, for me to to talk about puzzle piece directors. He is he's definitely that guy. And Michael, exactly the same. I mean, but David, specifically, like he is looking, not to blow smoke up David's ask, but he is our Hitchcock. He is our Kubrick, they will never be anyone like Kubrick or Hitchcock. But in our generation, there's very few filmmakers who are surgical as him. And then Michael has his, there's never going to be another Michael Mann. And people will be studying Michael Mann's movies, in film schools 100 years from now. And same thing with David, you know, and same thing with Tarantino and Nolan, and, and some of these other greats, there's a handful, that are our generations, Hitchcock's and our generations, Kubrick's that you just you sit back and you get you're lucky enough to get to work with with some of these guys, man. I mean, you must smile every day going to work, I imagine most days.

Erik Messerschmidt 52:53
Most mostly, I'm worried about whether or not that Condor got parked in the right place.

Alex Ferrari 52:58
Is the techno crane here, why is it the technical? i? So, you know, it's like, go ahead. No, no, if there's like, if you had a chance to go back and tell your younger self, who's just starting off in the business, one thing, what would that thing be?

Erik Messerschmidt 53:24
It has nothing to do with the equipment. Oh, great. Thank you. I'm worrying about it. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 53:31
You mean to tell me I don't need the latest. I don't need to shoot 24k or 48k? No, and by the way, you're coming from? No, but the thing is that you're coming from the perspective of one of the most technical directors and working with David who is he's always on the cutting edge with reds and, and what you guys did with manque. And, and even then you're saying it's not always about the latest camera or the latest lens or the latest lights? No,

Erik Messerschmidt 54:03
I mean, some some of the best Doc's we didn't make with it with a 60 watt light bulb, you know, I mean, it's, it's, I mean, you know, it's sure, I mean, technology helps you, you know, technology makes things easier. But it doesn't give you better taste, and it doesn't it doesn't give you better ideas. You know? And, and when I was younger, if I had spent more time thinking about the ideas and less time thinking about the equipment, I would have had a better chance you know, I got you because you get seduced, you know, you get seduced in film. Oh, by you know, you read Americans for magazine and ICG magazine and they're all the advertisements and everyone was trying to sell you this and that and and you start to think, oh man, if I shoot through five millimeter on my film, my film will be better. You know, if I get an 18k Then I'll be able to, you know, and it's Yeah, it's funny, it's like, the longer I spend this business, you know, and the more I have to kind of repent for the, the, the requests I make to producers, the more I remind them that, that the things I need are generally scheduled driven, they're not aesthetic, you know, you know, for example, if if, if I, you know, if I can shoot the establishing shot at 9am, when it's backlit, and it's beautiful, and there's, you know, mist in the air and stuff, I don't need anything, I just need the camera. But if this the actor isn't available till 3pm, than I need all this, you know? And, and that's, that's unfortunately, the problem of the big movie, you know, the small movie is nimble enough to make that choice. Yeah, great. You can shoot at 9am or shoot at 9am. You know, let's figure that out. You know, um, on a on a big Marvel production or, or, you know, a big war movie, like devotion, you know, where you're sort of, you're balancing, you know, you're balancing aircraft, and you know, when, when the, when the ceiling is lifted, so the the planes can take off, can't necessarily shoot it at 6am, when the light is perfect, you have to shoot it 11 or whatever, you know, so you have to figure out how would you know, and the compromises become about seeing the big picture and not being myopic around? What is what is immediately important to the image versus what's important in the movie, you know, and, and that's kind of, I think, ultimately, the biggest lesson for me, it's been like, learning to recognize how my needs impact the rest of the film, and how to best navigate it and sort of advocate for what I think is important without detracting from what's important for the film as a whole. You know, and I think a lot of younger cinematographers fall in this trap of like, no, no, no, it has to, I have to shoot anamorphic. And I have to, you know, and then they spend $4,000 a week on lenses, and then there's no money for costume, you know, it's like, so it's, it's, you know, it's it's important to be thoughtful, I think about how you, how you absorb the resources of a movie as a cinematographer, and how you how you advocate for the things you need.

Alex Ferrari 57:21
Now, you brought up the version, which is your new movie, which another small, independent film you've been doing. Can you tell everybody a little bit about the movie? And I mean, it looks gorgeous, man. I saw the trailer for it. It absolutely looks stunning. Again, you get into play with some beautiful toys in a vintage piece. I mean, you really get to have some fun, man, you're having some fun with some nice toys. I know you. I know. You had to suffer in Italy, with Michael Mann on the latest film. I'm sure the food was horrible. The weather was bad. I mean, you're you're you live in a tough life, sir. But But devotion tell me about devotion.

Erik Messerschmidt 58:01
Devotion, you know, I got I got a phone call from from a friend of mine. First, Franklin, who was whose first ad that I'd worked with a lot with Joe Kaczynski and, and an old friend of mine, and he called me up one day I was in Chicago doing the finale of Fargo, the TV show Fargo, my phone rang and he said, Hey, I got this script, you should read. I'm producing and I said I didn't know that he had started producing and I said, okay, cool. Bruce Yes. And over. And he sent me the script. And I read it. I was like, Oh, my God, this is so great. You know, it was a it was it's a war film. But it was really a drama in the under under the guise of war film. And, and he was period. And he's he you know, he said, Look, I've got airplanes, we're going to shoot it for real. We're not going to do a bunch of visual effects. We're going to land an aerial unit, they're gonna go up and they're gonna put these planes in the air. We're going to choreograph this. And I think you're the guy to do it. I want you to meet with the director. And I said, okay, cool. Yeah, getting on the phone. So we met I met JD dealer the next day. And we had, I don't know, two and a half hour meeting, and we just talked about everything. We talked about the movie. We also talked about life. And we talked about cinema, and we talked about history and race and politics, and, you know, a lot of things that related to the movie and a lot of things that didn't just because we became fast friends and, and I, you know, I finished the Zoom call. My phone rang, and it was Bruce and he said, Hey, do you want the job? Yeah, of course, I want the job. So we did it. And it was great, because I had, you know, they had they knew that they had they had bitten off a big chunk, and they wanted to do it right. The producers really, you know, wanted to support the film and they were prepared to sort of support the film. So I had a lot of prep time and I sat with JD and we you know, we we sat in LA and we Ah storyboarded and, you know, brainstormed ideas about how we can approach and what worked and what didn't we talked to people, you know, the guys that have done Dunkirk and guys that have done midway, and we, you know, we sort of just did our research and we looked at stuff we liked and stuff we didn't like, and, and, and then, you know, when Thomas production designer joined the movie, and then the three of us would sit down and talk about different ways to call, you know, how much of the aircraft carrier to build and you know, how we're going to shoot the Bucks stuff, and what can we do for real and, and then Kevin LaRosa, and Mike Fitzmorris joined the party and they were there are aerial unit makes it space areas up and Kevin area coordinator and a second unit director, aerial director, anyway, got involved, and that was like, a whole new world opened up to me and I, you know, I hadn't a shot scenarios, but mostly like helicopter, establishing shots, very simple things, you know, and, and they had a whole different set of tools available to them, that they started explaining to us what they could do when we started, you know, hold little model planes up in the air and storyboard as she, you know, kind of Lo Fi previous videos and thought about how those sequences were going to work together. And, you know, it was great, we had some incredible experience making a movie, it was, you know, a lot of people that really, really cared about it, and one of the sports ad and the project, and we're excited, and we had producers that were just incredibly supportive through the whole process, and really wanted us to succeed, and we're willing to listen to an outlet that that maybe otherwise would have been expensive, you know, there was certainly plenty of visual effects solutions to our problems, that would save them a lot of money, but I think would have would have been detrimental to the film and, and, you know, that fortunately for us, they agreed, and they were willing to go down the road with us and try to figure out ways to do a lot of it for real and that, you know, that I think, in the end paid pay dividends. So, you know, I'm really thankful to them that they were forward thinking in that way, you know, I guess maybe it's backward thinking because it's how it would have been done 75 years ago.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:14
So so they pulled like a Top Gun Maverick. They had like, no, no, we're gonna put the they're gonna put the planes in the air, and we're gonna shoot this. Do you see a movement? Because you're working in the bigs in the studio projects like that? Do you see a movement or almost a slight backlash against so much visual effects? So heavy visual effects and be like, No, let's get it for real. Because I mean, even Nolan, on on dark night, when he flipped that 18 Wheeler, he did it for real. You know, and you can tell, and you can sense that there's something organic on screen, that when you're able to do things real it you I mean, I think that's one of the main reasons Top Gun Maverick was such a massive hit, among other reasons. But just something we just haven't seen before. You don't see that in today's world. So I'm assuming that yeah, you know, what you are, what you guys did, and devotion is going to be, you know, similar in the sense that you did it. But do you feel that as a cinematographer, that there's a movement towards like, let's get the see if we could do this for real back? back the way it was done even 20 years ago?

Erik Messerschmidt 1:03:19
You Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, so called Richard Donner did it? You know, I mean, I think it's, I think, you know, I mean, I, yeah, he looked, the audience knows, we can do anything, you know, I mean, the audience seen Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, no disrespect to Guardians of the Galaxy, but they know that, you know, they know we can take them face when you know, we can put you on an alien planet, we know we can, you know, fly to the center of the earth. So it's it's not you know, that it's it used to be the David Copperfield event magic show, you know, that's what the the audience would go to the theater for, right? They go for the spectacle. And now I think the audience goes for the car, the sleight of hand car trick. You know, they want to they want to feel it, they, they would prefer to they would prefer to not even notice that it's happening instead of seeing this kind of all the razzle dazzle on screen. That's my opinion anyway, but so I think I think when you can do it for real and you can do it for real with with the assistance of visual effects, maybe you clean up the clean up the stick that's holding the camera on the plane. Things like that. Right? It's different than making a plane you know what I mean? And it looks different, and it feels it feels different and I also think in some ways it forces filmmakers that that mode of thinking and and look there's there's plenty of visual effects and devotion, but but we set some rules for ourselves and say, Okay, well, we're going to put the camera. We're only we're only going to put the camera in places where we could put a camera on real aircraft. So we're not going to, you know, we're not going to put the candidate play in front of a blue screen, and fly around, fly the camera around it on a techno crane and give you all these crazy shots and go, you know, go through the landing gear and up over the flaps, and you know, we're not going to do that stuff we're going to do well, we're going to do things that you could really do, basically, that, you know, that apply to physics to some degree. And I think you're gonna see more like more of that. And I think actually, you know, Tom Cruise deserves a tremendous amount of credit for as someone who is, is promoting the idea and saying, Hey, look, you know, Sam is important, and it's worth protecting, and it's a national treasure, and we have to, and we have to, you know, the, the audience deserves something better than then then, you know, revisiting the virtual camera through, you know, through the wormhole, or whatever, you know, I mean, it's there's, there's, it has to be story forward and thoughtful and considerate and respectful to the audience, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:08
and again, there is plenty, Pandora's not going to be shot practically, you know, that's not a practical, you can't go to fly to Pandora and shoot those things practically. So there is a place for that kind of storytelling, you know, when you go into the quantum realm, and man, probably not going to build a set or a miniature for that it's going to write, but if it's something that can be directly, if something that can't be done, it should try to be done, especially at that budget level.

Erik Messerschmidt 1:06:34
Yeah, yeah. I think so. And, you know, I think also, you know, with all due respect to to other filmmakers, it's it when you do it, if you do it digitally, you can make it up later. If you do it for real, you have to decide in advance. And that's intimidating to some people, you know, you have practical considerations, you have to think about, you know, if you're, if you're Dick donner, and you're going to, you're going to drop the drop the gasoline truck, you know, for real with a real pyrotechnic explosion, to be considered of how big the explosion is going to be, and are the cameras gonna be and what the, you know, what the location considerations are, and you have to plan and you have to go and tech Scout, and you have to say, Okay, we're gonna put the camera here and put the camera here to put the camera here, and we're gonna suspend it from a truck, or we're going to drop in there, it's gonna explode them, and it's going to be four days of cleanup, and we're going to pay off all the local businesses, and it's, you know, like that it requires advanced thought in the way that doing the gasoline truck, you know, shooting a plate doesn't, right. But there's obvious, significant advantages to doing it for real, it's just more difficult. And it requires, you know, sort of consider it requires directing to some degree, you know, and I, so I, you know, I'd support that idea. I just, I just wish more people did it. And I wished and I and it's part of why I like working with older directors, because they understand that, and they, they advocate for it, you know what I mean? They don't go for the easy solution, because it helps location department, they have to pay off that business or whatever, you know, we're gonna drop the truck for real and we're gonna blow it up. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:16
can I have the can I tell you story really quickly, because it's it this is going to exactly what we're talking about. I had Simon West on the show, who was a legendary action director, and he was telling me how he did the Con Air gag when the plane crashed in Vegas. And they found a hotel that was going to be demolished and like, hold on. Can we run a plane into the front for our movie? And they said yes. And there was it's shut down Vegas for a minute. But the thing was, and this is goes to your point of like, you have to plan ahead. He had six cameras on that on that shot. It was a one take you had there was one take someone said something over the over the the walkies the cameras, they just took off but none of the cameras were rolling. First they do is like oh crap. Oh crap. Get to turn it on, turn it off and turn it on. We're going we're going and everyone's like, freaking out. And then he's like, I had six. But then to have four of them didn't work. So I had two. And then we're like, okay, and like he told the whole story like three when three didn't make it. There's all film by the way. And then the two made it and then at the end we only really one was out of focus because it's the first ad. Oh, that's right. The crews Couldn't the crews were eating. crafty. And they everything was going to the cameras were going and they had to run to turn them on. All right. So at the end, they had one shot, one take on one angle, and that's the angle they got for us like I can't go back and shoot it again. This is why you had six if I would have had five we would have been in trouble. But there's a diff Well, you

Erik Messerschmidt 1:10:00
know, it is it is it is, you know, I think I think it's sent if filmmaking has been made, it's easier now. You know, it's a lot easier. I'm, you know, when I was growing up, and I was, you know, I came out of film school with one film, you know, and it was like, I had, you know, it was it had been transferred to beta SP and I had a VHS tape and I would go and show it to people and hand them the VHS tape and look at my movie is NTSC, you know, had locks on it great quality, you know? Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, and if I wanted to make more copies, I had to go find a place that had had an sp deck, because I couldn't do the VHS, you know, it was like, long before DVD. And, you know, kids come out of film school now. And they have like, six movies that have all been made, you know, on a RED camera, or, you know, an Alexa or something. And, God, I mean, I would have been, I would have privilege, you know, what a tremendous privilege to have. And, you know, so that, that, and I think that extends outward into cinema. So you know, so when people are like, Oh, I don't have any opportunities. I'm, I'm not that empathetic.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:10
You know? I'll listen. I mean, I spent 50 grand on my first demo reel versus a commercial director shooting on 35. Because you had to shoot 35. And that would make beta SP masters and then I would convert them to three quarter inch. And that's what I would send out to the agencies because VHS that's that was for amateurs. So then was the cost. I'm at the big with the big clam cases. And I read the FedEx I'm all over the place. And, and it was like, and now they're like, oh, yeah, shot this thing on an iPhone. And I'm like you sent

Erik Messerschmidt 1:11:41
like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you know, there was no video when I was, you know, when I first came on the show,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:49
there was no internet certain let's just go there was no internet. There was no, there's definitely no video. There was no video online, especially when I came out. Yeah. Not Not good. Not good video, at least. Now, when does the motion come out?

Erik Messerschmidt 1:12:07
November 24. And

Alex Ferrari 1:12:09
2002. Right. So just for the holidays, it seems like it seems Yeah. cinematic experience. You gotta go see it in the movies.

Erik Messerschmidt 1:12:18
I hope everyone does. Yeah, we did it. There's an IMAX release. If you have an IMAX theater near you can see it. That's exciting. First film I've done it's been IMAX and yeah, I think it's you know, it's it's certainly a story and a film that deserves to be seen Bay, it was intended to be seen big, you know, we shot it to be seen big.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:38
So now, I'm going to ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Erik Messerschmidt 1:12:45
Everybody's going to tell you no, and your work isn't any good. And you can't do it, and you got to ignore

Alex Ferrari 1:12:50
them. Fair enough. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Erik Messerschmidt 1:12:56
that there's always another job, but um, but you have to, there's, there's always another job. And the time off is is more important than the time at work. So you got to prioritize, you have to you have to prioritize your time off with the people that you love. That's, that's, that's the thing. That's, that's most important, I

Alex Ferrari 1:13:17
think. And as I've talked to a lot of DPS in my day and worked with them, they're like, dude, the divorce rate is pretty high. I mean, it's, it's no joke, it's no joke, especially when you become successful as a DP. The balance is really difficult. It's difficult to do. And that's something they don't tell you, when you start walking down this path.

Erik Messerschmidt 1:13:38
No, they don't. But that was really, I mean, look, you know, I I think I spent 28 days in my bed last year, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's challenging. You know, I spend a lot of time in hotels, a lot of traveling, and it's a lot to ask for your loved ones and your family. And, yeah, you know, if they don't, you're right, they don't teach you that film school. And they should, and we know when I speak to students, or whatever I try to, I try to say, Listen, you know, if you want to get in this, make sure that you're ready for that, you know, because it's, it's, it's, it can be quite, quite challenging for sure.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:15
It's the carny life, sir. We are just carnies and putting up tents, putting on shows, and taking the tent down, getting everything on the train and going to the next location, setting up shop again, we're carnies at the end of the day. Now and last question three of your favorite films of all time.

Erik Messerschmidt 1:14:33
Oh, God, how much time do you have?

Alex Ferrari 1:14:35
Just three, three of your three of your favorite films that come up in your mind today?

Erik Messerschmidt 1:14:41
Oh, my God. I mean, I, you know, people ask me that question all the time. I think Chinatown's way up there. Close Encounters you know, I should pick up I should pick a foreign film because it's underrepresented in the list. Fair enough. Bear. And my colleagues will judge me, but I'm not going to do that. I mean, I think Raiders of Lost Ark probably, I mean, it's just it's like those, think about the movies that I, they're the movies I admire and I respond to creatively and then they're the movies that I have seen 100 times and that is one of them. It's like one of those movies that I've just probably, I've probably seen it on written 50 times

Alex Ferrari 1:15:23
and they move and they move the the medium forward, all three of those movies moved the medium forward in one way, shape, or form. And Steven for sure. And I can't even start talking about Steven, I mean, Jesus, I mean, I've had so many people on the show who have worked with Stephen and I just yeah, I'm not gonna gush over Stephen. But yeah, but brother man thank you so much for coming on the show sharing your sharing your experiences with us and I can't wait to see devotion and hope everybody goes out into theater and actually sees it sits in a theater just like they did Top Gun Maverick and enjoy the real life spectacle that you kind of put together brothers I really appreciate your time and and continue doing some great work I can't wait to see Ferrari and the killer that those to another to film. I mean, again, you're you're doing okay for yourself right now, sir.

Erik Messerschmidt 1:16:13
Thanks. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying one day at a time. A pleasure, brother. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks. Cheers.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 390: Becoming a Jack of All Trades Writer/Director with Greg Mottola

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:07
I'd like to welcome to the show Greg Mottola. How you doin Greg?

Greg Mottola 0:22
I'm very good. Nice to meet you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 0:24
A pleasure to meet you as well, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I like I was telling you earlier I've been a big fan of yours for quite some time. Back from the days of day trippers all the way through Superbad and keeping up with the Joneses and Paul, which was a genius, electric lovely, fun, fun film and your new film, confess Fletch, which I had the the pleasure of seeing early and fantastic. And we'll talk all about that. But my very first question to you, sir, why in God's green earth did you want to get into this business? And how did you get into this business?

Greg Mottola 0:56
You know, like, like, all of us grew up loving movies. I had a pretty sheltered childhood on Long Island, you know, middle class, not my parents weren't like foreign film goers. But I would discover things my dad loved older movies. So he pointed me in the direction of things to watch Saturday afternoon, black and white films, on channel 11, and stuff like that. And so I already started to get a love of old films and, and would see everything that came out and had some teachers in high school turned me on to like, you know, one teacher showed us Citizen Kane and, and that kind of blew my mind. And, and then I went to art school, I drew a lot. I, you know, like many kids read comic books I taught, I drew pretty well. And I did a lot of other kind of art stuff in high school. And I thought, you know, this skill, let's see if it'll take me somewhere. I got to art school and realized I don't want to be an artist. This is way too hard. There's no money in it. Fine Art is is I have respect for it. But I don't, I don't, I don't see myself as a great painter. But I was a painting major at Carnegie Mellon University. And at the same time going to every single movie they showed on campus, like the first time I saw Clockwork Orange was on campus at Carnegie Mellon. And, you know, I'd go to once again go to everything, so a lot of foreign films for the first time. So my first Fellini film, my first Bergman film, first Corolla, and and I was like, this is the best possible thing a human being can make as a movie. And I really wanted to do at the end, and I really wanted to learn to be a writer. school didn't have any film classes, they had a video class that was that was a conceptual art class, I once made the mistake of showing my teacher a short film I had made and he gave me a C for the semester, because Because narrative movies were the devil to him. You know, just wanted it all to be non nonlinear art. So I found a space called Pittsburgh filmmakers, which is a little was a little group of basically, documentary filmmakers and experimental filmmakers. And they would teach you how to film a stick of bollocks in your hand and say, Go shoot it, cut it on this little thing that you just your hand rolled the reels, not even a Steenbeck not even a machine. And then you're going to you're going to cut the negative and get it printed in a lab in Pittsburgh. And I made I started making short films, which were not great, but exciting to me, because because, you know, I was seeing how lenses worked. And I was loading cameras, and I was cutting negative and one of my teachers, Tony Booba, great documentary filmmaker, kind of in the style of the Maysles brothers, he he would make these kind of personality movies about funny people, weirdos who lived in his town, which is called Braddock, which was a big steel mill town where that was very economically depressed because the mills were all closing and he would make these sort of social commentary, short documentaries, focusing on on big, big personalities in his area, and they were great. And Tony's brother was George Romero's editor. Tony got me a job working for two weeks in the art department of Day of the Dead. The third Romero zombie film, I was making zombie vomit out of glue, Elmers glue, paint and Rice Krispies and whipping it against a wall with a rag as one does to simulate. And I don't know if you've ever seen Day of the Dead.

Alex Ferrari 4:58
Oh, it's yeah, it's a fantastic film.

Greg Mottola 5:00
It's great. It's great. And so yeah, but we were as I was putting out a vomited, Bubs like little cell. And then I was helping with the r&d of the there's the shock moment where all the zombie hands come through a cinderblock wall. Yeah, I was there when they were trying to figure out how do you score Styrofoam, make it look like cinderblock. Like you know, all the little experiments and so they'd say, Okay, go over there and score 400 pieces of Styrofoam that was you know, because I was unpaid intern.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
So what was that? Let me ask you, though. What was it like working on the set with George Romero? I mean, at that point in your career, he must have essentially been almost godlike to you as a hero.

Greg Mottola 5:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, he. This was probably the year after creep show. Certainly, it seemed on I mean, night, living dead Dawn of the Dead bunch of times. I loved his movie, Martin. I tracked that down and we saw it at a theater. Somehow in Pittsburgh, maybe there was a great rep theatre near my college. I remember seeing doing that. And when it opened, it was very exciting. Even though people kind of trashed it. I was like, I don't know, this is sort of awesome and terrible, same time. And, and so so yeah, I you know, I was too shy to talk to him. I didn't, I wasn't a precocious. And still I'm not a terribly precocious person. So I just watched him and I watched him and Tom Savini talk a lot. And, and was just excited to see how they were going around making decisions. I was my work, my work there, whatever it was, was done before they started shooting. So I just got to see them prepping. It was there shooting in this cave, deep in a cave, we'd have to take golf carts and their bats flying all over the place. It was, I was so happy. To me. It was like I was missing all my classes and getting more C's and I was on a movie set. And you know, and I have a great affection for independent filmmakers. Here's a guy who worked and lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, making movies his whole life. Not exactly. Beverly Hills or, or Universal Studios. And the only other time I was on a movie set, I got a day as an extra and gung ho, the Ron Howard the Ron Howard.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
Yeah, I love that movie back in the day is great.

Greg Mottola 7:25
Yeah, I watched it not that long ago. It holds up really well. It's it's, I thought like it's this I kind of like it is yeah, it's great. And so, so you know, I and then I was making, I was taking the video equipment from a video class and shooting short films and they just wised up and stopped showing them to my teacher. I just made them for my own learning purposes. But the minute I finished film, school, I mean, art school, I I went straight to Columbia University for film school, I thought okay, now I need to, there's a lot of skills they need to learn. Now, during straight to grad school,

Alex Ferrari 8:04
Now so during that time, if I'm not mistaken, you were starting to come up in the 90s where it's, you know, I look at it as the kind of golden age of independent film as we know it. The Sundance movement is many have coined it because from basically from 89 to early 2000s. I mean, Sundance was just popping out. Amazing film after amazing filmmaker after amazing filmmaker, as a filmmaker, what did that impact that because I know daytrippers came out in 96. So you were kind of like in the middle of that Renaissance, you know, but you know, Robert had already come out. I think you came out at around the same time as Ed Burns did with Brothers McMullen. Yeah, that around that time as well. So this was just like, I anytime I haven't any, any of you guys on the show that we came up in the 90s. I always say it didn't feel like that every month. There was a new Kevin Smith's story, or Robert Rodriguez story or Spike Lee's story or Rick Linkletter story isn't wasn't at a crazy time for filmmakers.

Greg Mottola 9:01
Yeah, it was kind of amazing. I mean, I graduated from film school I had no I had no real connections to the business. I wrote a script. I thought it was pretty good. Campbell Scott read it. I had a mutual friend and he wanted to do it, but we couldn't raise the money. It was a little too expensive as a first movie. So I sat down and wrote daytrippers in about a month because I just wrote it thinking okay, I could set a scene in an apartment and get someone's apartment for free. I can set the scene on the streets and get permits and like anything that could be free. We shot on my parents house, we shot you know, everything was a favor. And during that time, I'd also met Steven Soderbergh. I met Steven right before sex lives came out. I made a student film that was kind of making like the student film rounds. Someone showed it to Steven. We met I went on one of my first trips to LA I went to meet Steve and he was prepping or starting, I think to prep Kafka. But sex lives had been like a Sundance. This phenomenon and there was a big article about him in Rolling Stone but it hadn't opened yet. And so, you know, we got along really great and Steven and I stayed friends and a couple years later when I wrote daytrippers, I showed it to him and he said, let me help you make this he put in some money he got some friends to put in some money, you know, we shot it, we got it in the can for like $60,000 but it you know, Steven called in favors he got Kodak to give us a huge discount on film stock and, and and, you know, I the same time was meeting people like HAL Hartley, one of my best friends from Colombia, she was dating Rick Linklater, I was hanging out with him. So I was meeting all these people I met. I met no Abom back. Yeah, it was it was, it was a great time. I mean, they're like, people were just saying, fuck it, we're gonna go around the system and make our ship for very little money. And yeah, well, like when daytrippers came out. It played in our houses, there were a handful of prints that would travel around the country, and it took, you know, months for it to get to every city. But to me, that was a dream come true, because it got to every little art house theater in America. And we were able to sell at some other countries and pay back everyone who worked on it. And it's my first paycheck ever as a filmmaker. And yeah, it really felt like a time like I remember, you know, going to a bar with some of those people and like, no, or how and just like, complaining about Hollywood and saying fuck those people, and they're slick movies and, and they don't have any soul. And we can pretend to be rebels and yeah, artists, they don't get it. And you know, and Soderbergh and I have stayed friends this whole time. In fact, I just worked on he did a bunch of short, humorous black comedy shorts that I was like quasi producer, you know, essentially just a friend helping out on that were shot like you would shoot a student film, even Steven, you know, has wounds. He's, he's, he can do every job. And he was shooting these on iPhones and, and he certainly didn't need my help. It was really fun to be there and watch him work and, and I helped, you know, bring some actors into it. I like got Michael Cera to be in it. And Liev Schreiber and you know, it felt very, very full circle. That, you know, we're still here and we're still there. We're still doing it. But the 90s were, it was it was it was it was a unique, Kathy, I kind of feel like I knew everyone because there's so many of them were in New York, Mary Heron was a friend, Nicole Harlow center I went to film school with she and I are still friends. It was it was cool. It was I mean, it's, you know, because of technology. It's become easier to make movies on a low budget and have them look good. Look professional because of digital technology in both shooting and post production. But and there's a lot of great stuff. And you know, it was very heartwarming to me to hear from sort of the next generation of indie filmmakers the what were they called? The mobile mumblecore Yeah, they do philosophy. Yeah, like Mark Duplass told me so like daytrippers was a was a big inspiration to him, because he's like, Oh, you can make a film for nothing. And it's okay, if it looks like it was made for nothing. I think that's a compliment. But it was true. It was absolutely true. And, you know, I

I, at that point had absorbed many different genres of film and whether it's low budget American films from the Corman years or in like films from Europe that were made on a shoestring and and I still believe and I still, I still feel half indie and everything I do. Maybe that's because I have a really hard time getting enough of a budget for anything, but I've been very lucky. I've been very, very lucky. I I've no complaints.

Alex Ferrari 14:31
No, it's really interesting. When you brought up Steven because I knew that Stephen worked on day trippers, and he's been quietly behind the scenes, helping filmmakers make their movies open doors. It wasn't at him that help Nolan get on inside. Yeah, without without without Soderbergh like going. I always call it the Donnie Brasco effect. He's a good fellow and he's alright. And it's kind of someone shouting about you. And he, he does that a lot. Very quiet. Yeah. Spielberg does it too and he does it as Well, I've heard so many filmmakers and screenwriters who've come on the show who just like, yes, even opened this door for me. And so it's really fascinating to see these kind of guys do that.

Greg Mottola 15:10
He's very, it's very unselfish. And it's, it's, I mean, it's totally authentic. He just, he, if he thinks, you know, your hearts in the right place, and you could do something interesting, he wants to help you, and He will, and now he's the greatest guy. I also had an interesting, this is a daytripper story, which, which is sort of another corner of the filmmaking business, which is that two days before we're gonna start shooting the film, I got a call in my shitty little tenement apartment on Thompson street. So from James L. Brooks, who I'd never met, and don't have, we had my number. It turns out, I had given us a copy of my script to a friend who had a friend at the New Yorker who was good friends with James L. Brooks. And James likes to you know, he likes he told his friend at The New Yorker, have you ever read a script you think is interesting, you hear about a young filmmaker, I want to, you know, I want to know who's out there. I want to try and help people. So somehow, my script for daytrippers got into got onto James Brooks, his desk and, and, and months had passed. And unbeknownst to him, I was about to make it on a shoestring. And he called me up and said, I really love the script. What's going on with it? I'd like to help you make it and I said, Well, we're shooting in two days. And he said, what's the budget? And I say, Well, we have $60,000 It was like a long silence who's like, No, I said, What's the budget?

Alex Ferrari 16:40
Craft services for the first week.

Greg Mottola 16:42
Yeah, exactly. And so and so I told him how we were making in who was in and he said, Well, you know, obviously, I don't want to stop you. If I were to get involved, I do have some notes. And I would do it on a different scale and and it would be a different kind of cast and I don't want to screw you up, just know that I like this enough that I would help you make it if you wanted to make it a bigger budget. And, and I was credibly flattered. I think that guy is great. And, and I slept on it the next day I called the bank. So I just, you know, I feel like I have to follow through. You know, all these people are ready to go. And as tempting as it is, I'm gonna go ahead and make it and and being a huge man. She said, Well, you know, $60,000 is a little ridiculous. I'm just gonna send you a check for $10,000 Just make me a silent partner, whatever other investors are getting, give me you know, the same proportionate amount. And the day we started shooting, I got a DHL package that had a check for $10,000 from James L. Brooks. I mean, not knowing me whatsoever. Just never done anything before except for a student film. Just based on the script, that guy sent me your 10,000 bucks. Which, which, when, when you're working on $60,000, that's huge. That's a huge addition to your budget. And yeah, it was 95, the end of 94 when we were starting shooting, and you know, that's, that was a big deal. And I'm forever grateful. And I've, you know, since hung out with him a bit, and we tried to make a movie together. It didn't all come together. But you know, I will, I will always love that man. And, you know, it's like people say to me, young people say how do you get started? And I say, get really lucky, and hope that people like Steve. James Brooks, take pity on you. I don't know what to tell you. I got super fucking lucky.

Alex Ferrari 18:46
It's my favorite. I asked that question all the time on the show. And I heard Quinton once, say, at a panel somewhere, I think at ComiCon. I heard him years ago, years ago for like 15 years ago. And some kids like how do you make it into the film business? He's like, right, Reservoir Dogs. He goes, I don't know any other way to break into the business. Right? Reservoir Dogs, direct Reservoir Dogs. That's how I did it.

Greg Mottola 19:13
Yeah, I mean, you know, daytrippers got my foot in the door. And almost, I almost got a second film made that was set up at Sony. That was real labor of love. And unfortunately, even we were in greenlit, we were in pre production, and the studio got cold feet and thought it was a little too indie a little too depressing. And I was like, yeah, it's depressing. That's what I did. They put it in turnaround, so that one didn't get made. And then eventually, I said, Well, let's go to LA and direct a lot of TV and then once again, I was super lucky. But yeah, I mean, what I tell the one thing I try to tell other, like when I go to Columbia film or something and speak with students there is there are different ways to skin a cat. The way I chose was get a real The great cast of actors who are working professional actors who are taking, we're taking, you know, shity shity, sag special low budget salary. And don't use that much of their time, shoot it as fast as possible. That was that was how I did it. I shot daytrippers in about 15 days, and, and was thus able to get people like Stanley Tucci and Campbell Scott and Parker Posey, and, and, and Mira, and, and, you know, I couldn't ask them to do that for, you know, meet me every weekend for the next seven months, and we'll make this film. But you can't ask your friends to meet you every weekend for the next seven months. And if you've got some really charismatic, interesting people, you know, who are patient, and who will say, okay, when you call me and say the lights really good. Let's go shoot the scene. Now it's gonna look really pretty. Or, you know, I got this location for the next two hours, come meet me. You know, that is a way to do it. I mean, you can take a really long time to make a movie, if that allows you to get all the coverage you want. You just have to have people in the movie who love you enough to put up with your bullshit.

Alex Ferrari 21:14
Which, which, yeah, I mean, look, it's an insanity. What we do is a general statement, and the independent filmmaker as a creature is one of the most insane of the bunch, without question because, I mean, unlike you, at this point in your career, you have success in your career, you've built a career for yourself. And when you're starting a project, there's, you know, there's risk and things like that. But when you're starting out, you're doing the work without ever knowing if it's gonna pay off, and so many filmmakers in today's world, because there's so many. I mean, when you were coming up in the 90s, it costs still cost money to make a movie, even $60,000. If there still needed to be a technical amount of knowledge to make it look presentable, you shooting film, you needed a real DP. Now everybody in their mother can make a feature film look good. But now who can know how you're going to get seen?

Greg Mottola 22:06
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's, you know, as we all know, there, it's hard to get on a screen and in great indie films do get on screens. Even more, so we can get to this later then sort of mid tier entertainments, like confess flash, actually, I have a very hard time getting on screen, because because Hollywood puts most of those kinds of movies straight to streaming. But even for an indie film to get on streaming, you know, it's, it's you have to you kind of have to hit that home run and make something like Coda or, or everything everywhere, all at once, something that's going to, that's really going to land with an audience, but someone will get behind it in some way. And there are there are, thank God still art house theaters, places that will show that are dedicated to showing new new foreign films and new American Indies. But yeah, because a lot of people can make a film. There are a lot of films.

Alex Ferrari 23:19
It's a gluttony in the marketplace. Without question, there's just so many. I mean, I think Sundance got 40 or 50,080 1000s of submissions last year or something. Oh, my God, like something insane. And there's like 125 films, including shorts, picked. So like the, the level of you even, you know, that wasn't the case when you guys were in the 90s. There were there were still a lot, but it wasn't the competition wasn't as fierce. And I always I always love asking this question of, you know, guys, and filmmakers of that time, because like, Do you like it? When I had burns on the show? I go, Ed, do you think brothers with Mala would make it today? And he's like, Absolutely not. would have would have been lost in I had no stars in and nobody you know, so I'll ask you the same question. Do you think day trippers if it showed up today, I mean, with this cast, obviously, because now there are big stars but generally speaking, what do you think the chances of it actually finding an audience's today?

Greg Mottola 24:15
Hey, look, we got rejected from Sundance back then. So we wouldn't even Yeah, that was I took some pride in that. That was the year they rejected us and swingers so it's like, okay, well, you're in good company rejected by another with another good movie. Yeah, no, I think absolutely not. It would be it you know, it was so modest. The, you know, it's comedic. Comedy is less serious.

Alex Ferrari 24:44
It's not real filmmaking. Comedy. Yeah. Right.

Greg Mottola 24:47
Yeah. Even though like in the history of American film, if you if you went through the list of what people actually remember so many of them are comedies, or silent movies. You remember, like 90% of them are comedies?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Because it was easy to translate back then. Yeah, Chaplin, and Keaton and all those guys. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 25:08
But still not to get on the comedy versus drama. Thanks to them both. It's yeah, I think it would be I don't, I have no idea how I could one could break through. I mean, I mean, there's a lot of movies with political conscience consciousness that, I think is great. But I'm sure now there's tons of them too. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be really hard for people coming up to figure out how to get their foot in the door. I, you know, I was very stubborn at the beginning, I thought I was just going to write and direct my own stuff. I'm going to be an auteur. And then, and then I started after my second film didn't get made, I started to try and write a third one and had writer's block. And I've ever, you know, slight propensity towards depression and writing became basically napping. And I was in New York, and running out of money quickly and thinking shit, I'm gonna have to go back to the job I hated that paid my way through film school. And then I got a call from Judd Apatow, who said, Do you want to come to LA and do undeclared? And I think before I hung up the phone, I was in his office. He's like, I didn't, I didn't offer you the job yet. I just saw

Alex Ferrari 26:32
Like a smoke outline of you was in the front like a cartoon. Like yeah, exactly. So you saw it. So is that how you got involved in Superbad?

Greg Mottola 26:42
Yes, I went doing undeclared. Which was a weird process only in that it was only in one season, but it was done in three different groupings. Because they'd say, okay, you can we'll let you do seven. And then they start to air and it's like, okay, people seem to like it enough. We'll let you do a couple more. And then they let's do a couple more, and then they canceled it. So I was back and forth. But I did like five or six of those. So I was around Judd, and you know, it was a great writing staff. It was Rodney Rothman, Nick Stoller, Jenny Connor, all these people. Jake Kasdan was one of the directors, I became friends with all these people. It was like a really fun group. And of course, Rogen and and so, one day toward the end of the final batch of undeclared. I was told there's gonna be a reading of Seth's script that he wrote with his buddy Evan, of Superbad that they were trying to get made with Seth and Jason steagle is the needs. And it was pretty much the funniest script I've ever heard. And it had a great authenticity to it. Because, you know, Seth and Evan Goldberg were writing about their lives. They started a version of this when they were kids. They wrote The only joke that survived the kid version was the name Nick lovin, which only I think a 13 year old could think of. I mean, nothing, you could never top it. And so So and but it was amazing. And it at the end of it just said, Would you consider directing it if we can get it set up? And I was like, Fuck, yeah. I you know, even even I was still a bit of a recovering snob, and I thought, well, teen movies. I was like, Fuck, yeah. What am I an idiot?

Alex Ferrari 28:33
I mean, Orson Welles never did a teen movie, how?

Greg Mottola 28:38
Exactly. I remembered, you know, Bergman, and Fellini did teen movie, so that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 28:46
You know what's interesting? When I was moving to LA from Florida, I was 2007 2008. And I remember the marketing blitz for that movie, which was arguably at the time one of the most brilliant marketing pushes for a small film. It wasn't a massive tentpole stretch. It became a tentpole film afterwards, but it was just I mean, I was I was I was taking meetings, I was doing the water bottle tour on some of my projects around town. And we were like, people were like, Yeah, we need something like super bad before it even came out before it even came out. They were like, Yeah, we need something like a super bad thing. Like that's lightning in a bottle. I was like, What the hell is like when it's super bad. I saw the trailer like that looks freaking hilarious. And then it came out and it exploded. I mean, in a massive way even culturally in the zeitgeist MC Levin is still MC Levin like I know

Greg Mottola 29:41
I still see kids with the McClellan ID T shirt.

Alex Ferrari 29:46
It's it's, it's it was insane. So I have to ask you, like you were the kind of thrust into you know, being the belle of the ball in Hollywood for a moment. There's always that moment that if you're lucky, you have a big hit, and then everybody wants to work with you. What was that kind of hurricane? That MC lovin super bad hurricane like being in the center of it?

Greg Mottola 30:06
Well, you know, I, the first time we screened it, we did a test screening. And it went incredibly well. And I was sitting with Bill Hader and build nudged me and sort of look at the girls behind us. And they were like holding each other and crying at the end of the film. I was like, Wait, I didn't expect that. But, but I didn't like when I first heard it, I thought the way in to this movie is that is the ending, which is that hovering behind everything is the fact that they're gonna get separated soon. And that's going to be the first big test of them. The first big loss in their lives like this, this is the scariest thing that's ever happened to them is losing this, this best friend who helps you go through adolescence not knowing anything really about women and how to get how to score. Talk to a girl. And the fact that they're both really scared that underneath it all they're really scared that like even though Jonah Hill's character says the most horrible things, Jonah intuitively got it, he's the only actor who came in and play that character, as you could tell under the bluster was terror. And that made it acceptable that he said such terrible things because he's, he's not toxic masculinity. He's living in a world of toxic masculinity. And he's trying to survive it. And he's trying to, he's trying it on because that's what he thinks you're supposed to do. And what he learns over the course of the movie is that's not him. And that's not how it works. If you want any if we want a woman to respect you, and get to actually know her, and then that's okay, that's what everything's leading up to. So we have to just keep that simmering underneath the movie. So anyway, I thought, you know, that'll give it a humanity. That'll make it feel real. Plus, we get this great luck of that nobody was making our rated teen movies anymore. Right? Yeah, it was, like PG 13. Kind of glossy, you know, fine movies, but they they they didn't have that. That chaotic, irreverent, but it was really on your nose and adults thing.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Yeah, it was it was the it was, I think that was the overcorrection of the 80s of the revenge of the nerds and the poor keys. And, you know, and all of those kinds of, you know, classic teen movies that were all hard ours, I mean, hard, hard hours in the 80s. But then it was they overcorrected. And then like, hey, it's been a while. And then America American Pie was probably one of the I think it wasn't that that wasn't 90s. Wasn't that the American Pie? Yeah. Yeah. But had been a while since American Pie when Superbad showed up. Yeah, exactly.

Greg Mottola 32:52
And in fact, when I went to that reading, it took three years for Judd to get the film greenlit. I mean, everyone was saying, we don't want to do an R rated comedy. Yeah, the script is good, but R rated comedies. Like why would we make a movie with the people with the audience? It's for can't come see it? And it's like, of course, they're gonna come see it, they're gonna find a way into the theater. I mean, I wasn't 17 When I saw Animal House, but I thought so so anyway, so the film, you know, we knew that people liked it. We showed it at Comic Con, which was like a rock concert, vibe. It was amazing. And so it's like, I can't believe like how well, but still, no one knows these actors really, will this translate in a bigger way, but Sony was selling the hell out of it, they were doing a great job. And the first day when I got a call, saying, we these are the projected numbers for the weekend, and it was like late August, mid, late August, and it was a time when like, it was like a dumping ground for moving. There's not considered a time you're going to open a movie that's going to open it millions of dollars, whatever, whatever was considered good back in that year, I forget. But anyway, we opened at a number that was considered very good. That times, especially for an August movie, and and it was so bizarre. I mean, I'd go on the street, and I'd hear people talking about it. I hear people talking about on the subway. And and it was, it was crazy. I mean, it was it. I you know, I have to be honest, it was super fun to be attached to something like that. And I loved everyone involved. I loved, you know, all the people who made it with me. And it was great to share that with this group of people that I had such affection for some of whom I know, you know, Judd and Sapphira, already known for quite a while, and I'd work with Michael Cera on Arrested Development. And yeah, it was a thrill. I have to say it's a thrill. At the time, I thought I may never experienced this thrill again and that All, that's remains true. But that's fine. That's fine.

Alex Ferrari 35:06
It was literally lightning in a bottle. I mean, look, I mean, those are skis hit the matrix, you know, you know, they'd never really hit the matrix again. You know, it's like, it's okay. You know, and you still, you still have a fantastic career. But you're right. There are those moments in time that you're, I've, again, when I've spoken to some other directors have had these kinds of kind of just rocket launchers. A lot of them said, Man, I wish I would have enjoyed it more. I didn't know that this was not this, this situation was really Right Place Right Time. Right, right film. And it will never be like this again, even if it may be I have another hit later on. It's never going to be the first one. It's never going to be this again.

Greg Mottola 35:51
I think I think I had some sense of telling myself you better appreciate this. I mean, this may may be the stupidest person alive. But shortly after Superbad came out, Judd asked me if I wanted to possibly direct bridesmaids, and I was trying to get Adventure Land set up. And because I am an indie at heart, I decided to pursue Adventure Land and pursue one of the other most loved successful comedies of all time.

Alex Ferrari 36:26
I've never heard of that, sir what movies that I've never heard.

Greg Mottola 36:29
And and, you know, on paper, everything about bridesmaid sounded fantastic and and, and I loved Kristen Wiig, and I ended up begging her to be an Adventure Land and you know, so I I may be frittered away a chance to build on a kind of more mainstream success. But I am I am a half indie guy. I really am. I mean, I don't Yeah, I don't regret making Adventure Land, you know, wasn't big box office movie, but I have to say like, it's for certain people. Like, I have more people come up to me and talk to me about that movie than Superbad, possibly because they think Judd Apatow Patrick Superbad. Now. Although I do remember one review of adventure that was really cruel, it said, Well, this proves that it was Judd Apatow was hand that needs Superbad as fun oh, oh, dude, it's a different movie.

Alex Ferrari 37:27
A movie? Oh, come on. And you still remember it? And you still remember it?

Greg Mottola 37:33
Oh, yeah. I don't remember any of the good reviews.

Alex Ferrari 37:35
I was gonna say there must have been 10s of 1000s of good reviews.

Greg Mottola 37:39
Very well reviewed. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 37:40
There's the one that you like, son of a bitch. That dude.

Greg Mottola 37:44
The thing of thing about indie filmmaking and making something personal that you know, some people are, it's just not going to be for them is that it's that feeling of like seeing a movie and saying, I know this is for me. And it's not for everyone, but it is really speaks to me. Right? And that's, you know, that's another kind of very satisfying thing to pursue. There are certain Fellini films that I love, and I know like, a lot of people are gonna get bored and a Fellini movie, but a movie like nights of Cabiria moves me in a way that I will never get from a certain kind of mainstream movie. It's just, it's a different experience. And I want to, I always want to try to be able to do both. And I thought, that'd be cool to get to do both. So So you know, yeah. So I, I've gone back and forth. Now, of course, I'm one of those people out there clamoring to get an indie filmmaker. So I wrote a script that I've been working on for years in between projects that I love, and I feel it's the best thing I've ever written. I've only shown it to a few possible financiers. And the basic line is like, well, this is more drama than comedy. And unless you come back with some really huge stars, I don't I don't see you getting as financed.

Alex Ferrari 38:56
You know it I want and I want to just hold on that for a second because so many people listening to this show think that, Oh, it's great Matala. You know, he's had he made these big hits, and he's had a great career and he's worked so much. He can get anything done. The more I talk to people on the show, the more I understood long time ago, that it doesn't matter who you are. Even Spielberg couldn't get Lincoln financed. Yeah, I mean, it's a struggle all the time. Almost all

Greg Mottola 39:29
Yeah, I mean, I'm basically like, I do want to do another indie soonish. And I'm thinking if I can't do this one the way I see it, because I don't want to do it the wrong way. It's a movie that does require it would be like an eight to $12 million film. I don't see a version of it. That's $3 million. But I could write something that I could do for $3 million dollars. I mean, the call Hall of center, wonderful filmmaker, wonderful writer and she designs her movies that that could be made for a number that that's that works in the marketplace and people's minds and she That's very true that way. And she keeps making really great movies. And so maybe I need to think about that, as I'm trying to attach the right cast to the one that's a little more expensive, and see if somebody, you know, find the right or the right or maybe the right moment in my career where I can cash in, uh, you know, it helped me get eventually made because Superbad was about to come out. And there's enough buzz about it, that I eventually got set up before Superbad even came out. But it was, you know, I got a lot of passes. And and a lot of people telling me, yeah, well, we'd like the funny side characters, but who, you know, the central story is just kind of like a love story.

Alex Ferrari 40:42
How, this is another thing that so many filmmakers and screenwriters have to deal with on a daily basis. And I think people in general in the creative industry, is, how do you deal with the nose? Because this business is all about knows and no, and the doors closing on you? All the time? So especially when you're coming up? How do you keep going, what is that thing that keeps driving you to keep going, when everyone's just telling you no kid, you're not, it's not going to happen.

Greg Mottola 41:08
You just die inside, and then you're fine.

Alex Ferrari 41:12
I yours years.

Greg Mottola 41:17
You know, it's still it's still a struggle to this day, but you just take the attitude of, it's a real waste of time, too, to lick your wounds for too long, I feel sorry for yourself. And I made that mistake, when my second film almost got made, and didn't I spent years trying to set it up elsewhere. And, and it I couldn't, and it was just it was, you know, the writing was kind of on the wall that it wasn't the right time to try and get that movie made. Ironically, people have come to me and tried to make that script, but there is a legal problem with someone who I was in business with at the time that I've never been able to solve. And that person has never let me free. So ironically, I could have made that movie, but I can't. But you know, that attitude of like, put it in a drawer, maybe the day will come is actually not impossible. And, and just, you know, fuck it. If I'm doing a pass on this grip, because it's a New York City story, I was going to go out with it a little bit wider to try and finance it, then the pandemic hit New York City changed a lot. And I thought, it's not going to seem viable to people. The way New York City is now during the pandemic now that New York City's pandemic is never going to end it appears but it's more itself. I'm doing a rewrite kind of address New York City at this very moment. It's a real sort of, you know, Hannah and Her Sisters multi character in this case, it's three stories that are being told simultaneously that are all connected. But it's kind of like three main characters and you're following them and an inter cuts between their stories. And it's ambitious, and it's it's, it's, uh, you know, I'll, I'll do my Polish, I'll send it around. I'll try and attach a few more actors. And if and if it seems like it's not the right time, I'll put it down and do something else. I won't. I won't waste time in this

Alex Ferrari 43:25
Seems like a film that would have been financed easily in the 90s. Because those are the kinds of movies that were being made and

Greg Mottola 43:30
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. God dammit.

Alex Ferrari 43:35
It was a big super battle chi teen damn comedy. So I always always like to ask this about of directors because we all you know, when we're on set, there's a day that the entire world's coming crashing down around us. You've lost your camera, you lost your actor, you lost your location, the sun's going down. You can't make your day. What was that moment for you on any of your projects, including the new one, we're going to talk about to talk about fledge that you felt that the entire thing was coming crashing down around you, and how did you overcome it? And yes, I know every day is like that, but there's that one day that is just like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it.

Greg Mottola 44:15
Well, for me, luckily, it was the very first day of my very first movie, we loaded out all of our equipment in our production office on daytrippers in New York City. Took our super 16 camera we at one and our small package of lights in a truck to a location on Long Island where we're going to shoot the first set of scenes with hope Davison Stanley Tucci, and I get to the location, we start to rehearse and my ad who's one of my good friends from film schools named Brian Lindstrom. He's talking sort of nervously or worry has a word expression on his face and I'm I'm sensing this behind me and I'm thinking what the hell could be happening. And he's like, just just keep rehearsing, doing a deal. And so finally, we work out the first scene, now we're ready to set up the camera, he said, If here's the camera has been stolen, and we trace it back to the loading of the truck in New York the day before, it somehow got taken off the sidewalk or something, and nobody noticed. And that's, you know, low budget film, and a lot of people working on the film, were first timers. And, and, you know, mistakes happen. So, you know, we don't have the budget to really absorb this problem. To come back and pay for locate this is one of the few locations we're paying for. And we had all these things locked down for the next few days, which, you know, going to lose actors, because they had lives and careers. So they scrambled and found another camera in Manhattan by the time they got it to set we had about two hours. And I shot, like three scenes and two hours

Alex Ferrari 46:16
I'm assuming and a lot of oners,

Greg Mottola 46:18
A lot of oners or a lot of one one takes and and you know, like various you know, man, what's the you make plans and God laughs at them. Like a lot of my my shot was went out the window and and you know, we shot in and we got something and it works. Okay. And we put it in the movie. You know, I remember the next day we're shooting in my parents house on Long Island in this town called Dix hills. And a bunch of us slept on the floor of my parent's den. Because we didn't have hotel rooms. And people didn't feel like doing the drive back and forth all crashed and sleeping bags on the floor. And I remember waking up surrounded by other crew members, thinking this is it. I'm done. I'll never you know that whatever we got yesterday had to be terrible. I can't do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I've never been to film before. This, I just felt a complete crisis. And then people started to show up, we started to set up and I'm like, I'm is there Can I run? I know the neighborhood. Well, I grew up here. I know. I know hiding spots. And you know, and then yeah, then I add mirror looking and be like, Well, where do you want me to stand where you want me to do and I'm like, Buck and mirror will kill me if I try to run she's going to Tufts. So I was like, Okay, I have to pretend I know what I'm doing. And I don't I'm not freaking out. And and luckily because I'm I'm an introvert and pretty poker faced I could I most of my anxiety goes straight to ulcers so I I think my way through it, and and then watching them act started to get exciting. And the actors would have suggestions that were making the scene better and started to get more and more exciting. And, and I started you know, Okay, should I freak out and say like, my parents are here do they realize I have hired two actors to play them? That's, that's a little weird. But my mom made a big tray of baked ziti for us to eat. And obviously, and and I started to really enjoy it and I realized I like being on set it's terrifying. And it's you feel so alive and I love actors. And I am so grateful to anyone on the crew that they're willing to help me make something I got over it pretty quickly. I'm always I always get a little anxious right at the end of prep before shooting. It creeps back in this feeling of oh fuck What if I fuck this up? Or there's so much to think about there's so many variables can you control them so I'm gonna steal my goddamn camera again.

Alex Ferrari 49:07
You still wake up in a cold sweat over that even on the

Greg Mottola 49:10
I'm still trying to crack that case? I'm still investigating in my spare time. Who the hell in that camera call and the cold case?

Alex Ferrari 49:18
And that cameras worth what 15 $15 Now $20

Greg Mottola 49:21
Exactly. The bastard only got that on eBay.

Alex Ferrari 49:26
Listen, I tell you what I mean I have to had a full blown panic attack on my first shoot day. Like I had a full blown panic attack. Like I had to you should. I literally was the biggest thing was shooting an action sequence for the short film I was doing. And I go guys, can you give me five I gotta go to the restroom. I went to the bathroom and I literally had a full blown panic attack for 1015 minutes, had to like meditate. And I didn't even meditate at the time. I was just like, I just need to calm myself like water on the face and then just like okay, there's like 20 people out there and we've got an action sequence to shoot and I just No He went out and did it. But it's it's something that they don't teach you in film school. They don't talk about this in film school. But this is the reality of what it's like being a director on set at any level, whether it's on a $200 million movie or a $60,000 movie like daytrippers, like you know, shit happens to your camera getting stolen on day one is a pretty rough.

Greg Mottola 50:18
Yeah, and that's

Alex Ferrari 50:22
But, but I'm flush you didn't have that problem. No one stole a camera, Fletch?

Greg Mottola 50:25
No one stolen camera we yeah, we've managed to hold on to all of our equipment.

Alex Ferrari 50:32
Tell me, tell me about so let's go into this new film, confess flach which is, you know, for a for a certain demographic of my audience who is has a little gray in their beard like I do. will remember the original Fletch, which is a legendary movie series by the the great Chevy Chase. And when I was when I was pitched this for you to come on the show was like, Oh, they made a movie called Fletch. Did they know that there was like I couldn't. Because it was like it was Jon Hamm starring in it. And I was like, and I was watching that. I was watching Jerry Taylor. I was like, man, and then I saw the logo. I was like, Oh, it is flat. Okay, they're remaking it. Okay, fine. Okay, because it was just so different because it didn't feel like the original. It didn't have the kookiness of the original. It's a completely different approach to it, which is wonderful. And I did get to see and I loved it. So tell me how you got involved with Fletch and how you approached dealing with a movie that for a certain generation has a shadow over which is chevy chase this kind of shadow over it.

Greg Mottola 51:32
In fact that the second movie I was going to direct the got set up at Sony was gonna start with John CUSEC. Steve's on and Chevy Chase, and I met with Chevy a bunch of times, and he did table read. And I was so excited. I was I've always been a huge fan and I grew up you know, watching SNL from the first season, I was Braden, eight or nine years old. And, and that was when it fell apart. One of the things I was most sad about is not getting a chance to work with Chevy. So cut too many years later, Jon Hamm, who I'd worked with twice before, and has a friend now. We were hanging out, he said, What did you think of doing a Flash movie, Miramax owns all the books except the first one. And then he told me when he saw the first movie, he loved it and then discovered there were books and read them and saw that the books have a slightly different tone in the movie that Chevy brought his own style of comedy and really influenced the Flash movie. And that there was another way to go with it. And he loved it. He claims he was so broke. As a teenager, he stole the books from Rome, a Walden books store, the various fudge books that are published and thanks. So I think they're probably not I think they're out of business. So they're not going to come after him. We should be okay. Okay. So so I had always heard the books are great. And I love detective stories, but I'd never gotten around to them. So I went off. And I love the first movie, for sure. And really enjoyed the second one. So I went off and read a bunch of them. The one John was thinking would make the most sense, was confessed flach. That book starts with him already having retired from being an investigative reporter, but he can't keep out of the business of investigating mysteries. And it gets sucked into not one, but two. And I thought it was fantastic. And I also saw where you could go a different way with it. And I felt as much as I love Chevy. I felt like I'd seen a lot of sort of 80s Reboot nostalgia fest movies that some are great, some are less great. And I just thought that doesn't interest me as much as a filmmaker. It's you know, I did the movie, Paul, which has an enormous amount of paying homage to Spielberg and Lucas and 80s science fiction, fantasy movies, and I love doing it. And that was really fun. That was baked into it. And that was, to me, that made sense. But in this case, I thought, you know, there's a new generation, I think that might not know this character, and they're between TV and movies, there have been 15, Philip Marlowe's, the famous Raymond Chandler detective character was played by Humphrey Bogart and Elliott Gould, and James Garner, and a whole lot of people. And I thought, you know, people have tried to revive it, and I can understand why it's been hard and it's in the shadow of Chevy's performance, which is unique. He's a unique, brilliant comic of our time. I thought the only way to go really is to go a different way because trying to impersonate Chevy, I thought would be a disaster and John didn't want to do that either. So um,

Before I was involved, this ReadySet borrow was working on an adaptation and and I'd read some of his outlines and we consulted he was letting me read pages and My gut feeling was like this is very funny. It's really funny stuff. It feels a little too much like a Chevy version. But I wanted to let ZEV finish his script. And he turned it in and John first words were like this is a great movie for chevy chase but not for me. And so I said let me take a crack at it and I went back to the book Zedd hadn't used as much of the book as I ended up using I went took more characters from the book, we're translating it from 70s to 2020s. So I had to kind of find 2020 is equivalent to some of these characters. But I really I took more stuff from the book I underlined lines I really liked from the book and put them in the script and and thought this is a comedy of manners this is this is you know, this character flechas has a lot of bait in his DNA is baked in a lot of similarities to what Chevy does. But in the books he doesn't have disguises and funny names and isn't quite doesn't quite. And one things I love about the Chevy movies is he just comes into a room and just confuses everybody with this deadpan acting absurd like almost like the Marx Brothers just complete a completely absurd no one knows what's going on. Right? And in that movie, everyone's kind of a straight man to Chevy and I thought, well, there's funny interesting characters. Maybe if we cast this right, we can let them be funny too, and not just be reacting to John. Let him interact and something I felt in this series of flesh books is Fletcher's a character likes weirdos and loners and outsiders, people who are authentic and he hates phonies. So he any any talks with people will lie to anyone anytime, but he has sort of a good heart he does. He does wrong things to make the world a little more, right. He doesn't believe in the cops and the justice system getting there. He does it his own way. And I thought well, that's great. And I think John is being both a comedic and dramatic actor he could really kill this and I saw the style little maybe a little more old fashioned dialogue driven talky comedy, less slapstick, and broad more behavioral comedy with hopefully, you know, still a bunch of good lines and I stole a bunch of ZEVs really good lines in his script. And I took a lot from the book. And and this being a genre hadn't quite worked in there wasn't like a semi autobiographical thing. I did what I've watched people like Judd do which is get some of your really smart comedy friends to read it and pitch you some some ideas which really helped me unlock some things that I could write to. Bill Hader gave us great ideas. John's really good friends with Robert Carlock 30 Rock he gave us great ideas he gave the script to Neil Gaiman, who Shawn knows from Good Omens Neil Gaiman loves the flesh books and, and I was so thrilled because he liked the script. And he gave me he gave me a cup of like two notes that I absolutely did the made things much better. So, you know, I thought, Well, why not take advantage of all these great people? I know that's something take advantage of the great cast that I think we can get. And that's where we began

Alex Ferrari 58:21
I mean, look, if you've got to deal game and on top I mean, if you're gonna Yeah, I mean, I'll take advantage of that. You know, what kind of idiot we're not. Shit. That's, that's amazing. Like, yeah, Neil, do you what do you think so yeah, here's a couple notes. Like, sure. It's great if you could get that access. But that's me. That's, that's remarkable. No, it was a really fun movie. And the way you approached it was really an A John's performance is I've been a fan of John's. One of my favorite things John ever did was the SNL sketch with Michael Buble. A Hammond bubbly, one of the I mean, my wife and I watched that, like every every, like six months, like you remember it, let's, let's bring that back. It's just his performance. It's a John is such a great great, great comedic actor. And he has such great timing. Um, he's a fantastic dramatic actor, but in this movie gets to play both really, really, really well.

Greg Mottola 59:13
Well, that's what I was excited about for to get to put John in the middle of you know, these weirdos and let him do both and let him Yeah, and let him really lean into his timing and, and, you know, ya have a real sustained comedic performance with be a very specific guy who's unconventional who looks you know, like there's a lot of sending up rich people in the movie and he looks like he could walk into a yacht club or a really upscale art dealers gallery or rich person's apartment or whatever, and, and they all let him in and they'd all open up to him. They think he's one of them. And I really believe Fletch has a different value system and all these people, he just happens to look like, you know, handsome loss. And so and so he can, he can go around taking advantage of that to to get the information he wants and to trick people. And so I thought he's kind of perfect. If you go back to the character from Book Three, he is a character in the book is younger than than John is so but what kind of worked about confess Fletcher's? He's a retired investigative reporter. So that made some sense that he's, he's been away from this world, and he's kind of getting sucked back into a version of it. And you know, some people have reacted to like, you can't make Fletch with someone who wasn't like Chevy Chase. And I think I think I can see that. That's what that's what they want. They want, you know, they want more movies with Chevy doing the part

Alex Ferrari 1:00:51
98 Chevy from 1980 Something which he is now and I

Greg Mottola 1:00:55
And then I would have loved that too. I wish I wish they had I mean, maybe they made a mistake by making the second movie not based on one of the books, maybe they should have tried to stay a little more faithful to the books, who knows. It's not for me to decide. But But I would have loved to have seen Chevy do all the books. But at the same time, you know, the long goodbye by Raymond Chandler has been adapted probably three or four times.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:21
Stars but for God's sakes, yeah,

Greg Mottola 1:01:24
I thought I thought you know, for people some people say this is sacred, you cannot touch it was like now you know, it's it's an adaptation. You know, if it doesn't float your boat, you have to watch. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:36
Like I was I was there at the premiere of Footloose when they made the remake with Craig Brewer, who made the remake of it. And you know, the remake was the remake was fine, but it's not the it's not the Kevin Bacon one. It's just, it's never gonna be the Kevin Bacon. It's a moment in time. Just like Fletch in the 80s was a moment in time that can never be reproduced no matter what you tried to do now?

Greg Mottola 1:01:57
Yeah, exactly. So that's why I thought we'll use a different book. And we'll have a different tone. And we'll you know, we never really talked much about making it a period piece, that's probably wouldn't have been too expensive. Anyway, we had to, you know, part of the way we broke the flesh curse was that we were willing to work really fast and work but within, you know, felt a little more like do daytrippers than I expected. But that's the kind of the way the world now is like, certain they give a billion dollars to Lord of the Rings, and then the rest of us have to have to work on the catering budget from Lord of the Rings.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:36
I mean, but if you were to put a John in a cape, I mean, you would have gotten at least another 50 million.

Greg Mottola 1:02:42
Yeah, yeah. If you can we make Fletch

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
I can imagine in the studio, get flush superpowers, can we? Can he be like a mutant that dissolves Croc?

Greg Mottola 1:02:54
Yeah, just you know, people who love the books won't have a problem with that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:00
Which is millions of people. Now when is it coming out? And when people can where can people see it?

Greg Mottola 1:03:05
It's what's getting kind of this hybrid really is because we live in a brave new world where where, you know, the pandemic screwed with movie distribution. And this kind of medium mesh comedy is adult skewing to a bit. I mean, it doesn't really, you know, it's not a lot of pop culture references and and, and dirty shit like and super bad. I apologize. They can't do it every time. And and so you know, it's not perceived as necessarily a big theatrical moneymaker, which I get, especially as moment time is everything all bets are off. People are scrambling trying to figure out what are movies now. Anyway. So we're getting this limited released in theaters starting this Friday the 16th It'll be in about 450 theaters around the country in the main major markets. You know, it's not getting a Top Gun level promotion. But I didn't expect it to I'm actually quite honestly, I always thought this will go straight to streaming in this moment in time, the kind of size of movie it is and the style of it being not super broad. And how many movies how many comedies have even been on screens lately? It's I feel a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:27
I can't fit in the theater system right now.

Greg Mottola 1:04:31
Come from studios.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:34
No, no, not not in a big not big releases. No.

Greg Mottola 1:04:38
I mean, like you know, these big Yeah, all these you know, like, Kevin Hart. Movies go to netflix. I mean, he was he suffered any BS Yeah, yeah, definitely tons of movie. He's his movies made tons of money in the box office and now they're all going to Netflix and

Alex Ferrari 1:04:54
I mean, the rock is going to Netflix for God's sakes. I mean, yeah, black Adam coming out soon, but But yeah, I mean, when you got someone like one of the biggest movie stars in the world going straight to streaming whatnot going straight it started in streaming. But yeah, I mean, could read notice could read notice if it was released? Because that's an action comedy. Could that have made a couple 100 million dollars in the box office?

Greg Mottola 1:05:15
Yeah. You think, but you know, but the pandemic changed things and yeah, and and, and you know, people are strapped for money and I get it. But so I'm glad that it's getting kind of theatrical, I see it as kind of an indie release. It's sort of like getting the thing that's, that has changed. But it's interesting is that even maybe a year ago or two years ago, the major chains, AMC Regal, so forth, would not take a movie that's also opening on demand the same day, and we are opening on demand the same day. And they're, the major chains are willing to show Fletch, so so

Alex Ferrari 1:05:57
They don't have a choice. Now,

Greg Mottola 1:05:58
I mean, they're negotiating. Exactly the you know, the whole, like, we won't take anything with less than a 90 day window has all gone away. And, and which is good for me, because now some people can see it in a theater. And I think, I think you know, because a lot of the jokes are not pointed out, they're a little more dry, or just happened without, without elbowing the audience in the ribs. I think it I've seen it with, with an audience a few times. And it, it plays nicely. I think people actually laugh and focus in a slightly different way. But I'll be happy if you watch it on any form. If you watch it on your Apple Watch, I'll be grateful. And then I was just gonna say, at the end of October, it's going to be it's going to move to showtime.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
Okay, so perfect, perfect. I tell everybody, they have to go watch it. It's a really, really fun film, whether you like the Chevy one or not. It's just a good film stand alone. It's, it's a really nice approach to that material without question. Now, I do have to ask you one question, because you worked on one of my favorite shows of the last, you know, 1015 years. newsroom is it was a masterpiece of television. It's one of those it's up there for me up there with the sopranos and Breaking Bad. It's just such a well written show and such a well done show. And you were obviously a co executive producer on it. You worked with Aaron, I just have to ask you, what was it? What did you how did you approach working with Aaron Sorkin and how was that collaboration on the newsroom?

Greg Mottola 1:07:32
Well, it's I mean, yeah, Aaron's brilliant, there's no question of that. And I, you know, for better or worse, I thought, well, let's up approach the pilot slightly differently than his other shows, which are very sort of classical, beautifully directed often by Tommy Shlomi, who's a fantastic director. But I thought I don't want to ape his style. What if we give it a slightly edgier more? You know? All green grass handhelds? Yeah. So dirty or five? Or you know, and I actually ended up getting I've terrible memory the DP who shoots who shot like United?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:23
Oh, yeah. 93 93 Paul's Paul's DP?

Greg Mottola 1:08:27
Yeah, and I can't believe I'm forgetting space and just my terrible I'm getting old. Great guy, great DP who operates himself shoots off Ken loach's movies. And, and we shot everything with three cameras going at all times. I kind of wanted to shoot 35 HPSI Well, that'll, you know, get a little expensive and the cameras are heavy. What about 16? So we shot the pilot on 16 then moved over to digital. And, you know, 16 has its drawbacks, because it is it is Granier and maybe maybe a bit too grainy, but I feel like it was an interesting experiment for the pilot. And the cool thing about pilots is you can change a lot in episode two and people tend not to notice. Like all the offices we built this amazing set for for the pilot which was like the bullpen and the and the control room and the little stage where he does his broadcasts will roll McAvoy sets and it was all live and wired. You could have one camera in the control room with Emily Mortimer another camera with Jeff Daniels and me shooting live. And it was fantastic. It was so much fun and it was exciting. And I think it gave it a it gave it a very special feel. But they didn't want to spend all the money to then build all the offices so we shot on location for the offices and of course they all changed in the second episode. No one's ever no one's ever asked about it. And I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed if I was the fear. So so? Yeah, so we took that approach but with with Aaron's writing, actors need to be fully prepared. The way every scene would start was Aaron would come down to set. We just read it sitting in chairs, and the actors would read it. And Aaron would give notes on performance and and lions and sometimes on punctuation. Aaron's the kind of guy who says, like, No, that's a double dash. You need to clip it at the end, or you need to cut her off exactly at the beginning of this syllable. I mean, here's a musical imposes it in his head. And he wants to he wants it to be acted the way he heard it. Because it's not like he wrote it and said, this is perfect. No, he wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it until the music sounded right to him. So there is there is a real mastery to how he's writing. And some of the actors are used to that some of the actors are in love theater, people are used to it. And so the actors like what the hell and then once they start to do it, they see why he wants it that way. And so often, we would start shooting the scene and slowly speed it up. As we go along. We get the beats down. So the psychology and the behavior all felt right. The moments all felt right. And then I'd say, Okay, now do it a little bit faster, and a little bit faster. So then it starts to feel like an Sorkin which is that incredibly bright people. Yeah, who with, with neurons firing way faster than mine do. And, and, and it's great. It's great. And he's also a lover of, you know, I watched, I watched His Girl Friday a bunch of times before starting because because I was saying this to someone the other day, those are Hollywood movies. The scripts are like 150 pages, because people talk so fucking fast. And that's the way that's the way Aaron writes. And it's so pleasurable when you've got great actors doing it. And that cast cast was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:10
Oh, my God. And Jeff, I mean, Jeff, well, that whole opening monologue on on about America. Oh, my God. I mean, I've seen that on YouTube. 1000 times of like, you know, how America is not great and all that stuff. But the way he did it was so loving, so beautiful, so truthful, so raw, and it's just like, the cadence of a Sorkin script. And it's like, you're right. There's people firing on all cylinders, like everybody is. So like, even the intern in the scene, is smart as a whip and had some amazing luck. That's just the case. So that's a simple that's a circuit with kind of like a Tarantino script. Like Tarantino has his own air vibe of that. And yeah, people don't talk like that. Human beings don't talk like that. But that's what's beautiful about watching. And listening to that.

Greg Mottola 1:12:56
Yeah, that's his. That's his. That's his style. That's his artistic choice. And it comes from theater. And he tends to write scenes that have movements in them. You know, some writers write for the visual medium that something happens and butts up against something else in another scene and butts up against something else and the story unfolds. Aaron writes, like a playwright, and he writes things that happen and unfold in front of the audience. And I think it's totally valid and quite exciting when it's done by a master. Because it is a different experience, watching things change, watching the actors, attitudes change, watching watching them affect each other, in real time in the scene, as opposed to seeing the change happening over a series of you know, over the course of an episode. You're seeing the drama happening in front of you, which sometimes I think people forget is a tool of storytelling. Because they you know, look, I'd love things being cinematic. But there there are a lot of ways to do it. And his way is a really interesting one. Endlessly watchable Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:11
Thank you for making helping make that show what it is, man. I like literally just love, love love. So sad. When that didn't come back. I wanted more and more

Greg Mottola 1:14:18
I was there's five seconds where they thought they really would revive it in the Trump age. And I think probably the end of the day, they were just like, what, how, how would you even take this on?

Alex Ferrari 1:14:28
Oh, like, I mean, how can you make it? Yeah, you can't like Yeah, I can't even go down that road. No, Greg, I just have a couple questions. Ask all my guests really kind of rapid fire questions. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Greg Mottola 1:14:43
Um, listen to me the longest learn was probably that I shouldn't have touched on this earlier. I insist that I have to be an auteur who writes and directs is on movies. I really thought it was still had cheating to direct other people's words. Uh, that it had to be personal because those are the films that affected me the most. And I realized I'm a slow writer, I'm sometimes a neurotic not terribly confident writer. You know, I have to I have to be doing it for a while to get back into it and believe I can do it. And I also like being on set I really love being on set and in Soderbergh is when the first people said to me, like, it's okay, if you direct someone else's screen screenplay. It's it's fine it's like those take really long time to write spend more time on a set and you'll get better and better at making movies and TV and and it was great advice and and I was so lucky that when I moved to LA I got to work on on declared Arrested Development the comeback? I mean, I worked on only fucking kick ass shows. So so like, you know it with great writing. And then and then later the newsroom and got to work with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost who I absolutely adore. So, yeah, so but then I thought you know, I have done more writing in the last decade. Some things that haven't gotten made in addition to my little indie film, but you know, I take the attitude like I said earlier the lesson is, is it's okay I'm gonna I'm gonna direct everything that I write everything I drag that's okay. And and I'm much happier for it and it's okay to take time to write and and wait till it's ready and but not waste time feeling you know feeling sorry for myself if things fall apart.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:41
And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time.

Greg Mottola 1:16:48
This is fun. You know, it's hard not to pick movies that are giant classics. I know like if I were to be honest 2001 is one of my favorite films of all time. To me it it takes the spectacle movie and turns it into something completely different in our house. Yeah into it it takes a spectacle movie in terms of our house film and yet stills also like a cat and mouse thriller for the whole house section. And is brilliant and gives you so much to to think about and and wonder about, no matter how many times I see it. And when my parents took me to see it when I was nine they fell asleep. And it stuck in my head like a crazy dream for my entire life. So there's that the movie I'd probably if the world was exploding and I was told I can save one movie would probably be eight and a half. I love Fellini deeply. And I love everything about that movie. That movie to me is the most entertaining. Exploration of self that I've ever seen. And, and I love every detail in it. I love how it's shot. I love the music. I love the performances. I just it's another film I can watch a million times now picking a third. It's gonna be a little tricky. Um There was a time where I might have picked a Woody Allen movie, but I'm not going to touch that right now. I mean, to be honest, I can't I can't lie about my experience when I saw those movies. I know what I felt.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:42
Hey, look, all I gotta say is I had someone say the other day is like, can I say any Hall make any halls a great movie? I'm sorry. It's a great movie. It's you know, it's, it's really good. But I understand where you're coming from.

Greg Mottola 1:18:56
I would probably say I probably say Goodfellas. Goodfellas is, you know, being a New Yorker, being I'm half Italian American being a lifelong Scorsese, lover. Of course fascinated with that world, and just the explosion of cinema that movie is but everything is there for a reason. There's there's just it's not it's you know, endlessly inventive. cinematically, but it's not somehow it's not. It doesn't feel show offI it doesn't feel like hey, look at me I can do this. This looks this is cool. It's like it is cool. But it's better than just being cool. It's fucking telling the story and and in immersing you in the emotions, and expressing everything about that world. What's exciting and dangerous and compelling, and just horrifying and awful and vicious and inhuman about that world.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:06
You know that in so many filmmakers, especially when we're starting out, we all want to do the Scorsese shots. We don't want to do the Kubrick shots we don't want to. Yeah, we all want those like, you know, long crane shots, the whiners that this kind of stuff, right? Yeah, but even in Goodfellas, the wonder that everybody wants to try to do which is that bat that going through the kitchen, Steadicam shot, it's not there to show off, it's literally there to tell the story. And is truly don't under like, as a director looking at that scene. I'm like, how do you tell that story without the one? Or like, how do you tell that bit of information about Henry Hill without that one? And I wonder is so economical? In has all this so beautifully done?

Greg Mottola 1:20:47
Yeah, you could tell it in shots, you could break it up into shots, and you can you can show his walking through all those places. But it wouldn't have the emotion of the passing through the kitchen and all the other life going on and ending up at that table on the table being plopped down in front of them. And ending on fucking any young men.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:11
What do you do again, how it construction.

Greg Mottola 1:21:15
I mean, ya know, and it's, it's, and it is, it is incredible mastery of the form. But it isn't just there to show look on the master, it's there because that is the best way to tell that, that that part of the story, and it's yeah, it's amazing. And I can watch that movie. Again and again and again and again. And again, come away from a second boy on mediocre computer.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:40
And how and by the way, and this is the last thing I want to say how many of us growing up look at the masters the Kubrick's the Scorsese's The, the wells, the you know, all Spielberg's, and you look at their films, and you're like, I can't get out of bed because it's just an insane filmmaker. Like, I'll never be Kubrick. I can't get out of why should I even try? It's kind of like, I'll never paint I'll never be Picasso. Of course not. There's only a handful of those masters in the world. But you can do something. I hate to say look, Kubrick would have made an interesting super bad, but but probably not as good as your super bad in my opinion, though, would have been a very into Scorsese could have done an interesting, super bad, no question. But also in I think, as Denzel Washington says, like, you know what scores it's Spielberg could have been an interesting Goodfellas. And Marty could have made an interesting Schindler's List. No question. But those films were built for those filmmakers from their perspective. Yeah. Life. And, and, you know, everyone has that, that that path they walk and that everyone's going to be did actually there's going to be no one that's going to be a Nolan. There's no one that's going to be a Fincher or Soderbergh or Spielberg because they've already taken that mantle. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 1:22:53
Well, there's a great Albert Brooks story. He became friendly with Kubrick because Kubrick really liked comedy. He loved Woody Allen. He loved Albert. Yes. And he talked to strain he, yeah. And he wrote, he became like a kind of a phone friend with Albert Brooks. And at one point, he Albert Brooks was writing last in America. And Kubrick said, let me read it. I'll give you some notes. And so he's like, Oh, my God, Stanley Kubrick is going to read my fucking script. This is amazing. And then the notes came back. He's like, they were terrible. It was really cool. Still, it's like, but they weren't funny. It's like Stanley Kubrick's lost in America would be very, very different. And Albert Brooks, I think, is brilliant. And he's one of my favorite comedy filmmakers of all time. But yeah, it's like, yeah, to your point. Yeah, you just have to try to be the best version of yourself. I, I try to approach them and say like, Well, what do I think I could do here that the other guy wouldn't do? That might actually be good. So that's how I go in.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:51
Greg, man, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, my friend. Thank you so much for being here.

Greg Mottola 1:23:56
Alex. This was much fun, man.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:58
Thank you for all the years of amazing entertainment and and continue to do what you do and continue doing what you do, sir, even though you're mediocre, as you said, but no, seriously, my friend, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you, man.

Greg Mottola 1:24:12
Thank you. Thank you so much, Alex. I hope to do it again some day.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 389: From Short Films to Narcos with Josef Kubota Wladyka

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Josef Wladyka. How're you doing, Josef?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 0:14
Doin well Alex, thank you so much for having me. I first just want to say it's a great, great honor. What your podcast stands for and continuing the indie hustle of filmmaking and the array of different types of people you have on the podcast. It's great. So I'm just I'm just very grateful to be on. So thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:33
Oh, man, thank you so much for coming on man, I appreciate those kind words matter. You know, let's, I wanted to create something that you know, that can help filmmakers along this insane path that is being a filmmaker and, and try to just try to warn them before the boulder comes and crushes them. So just like you know, just let them know that the Boulder is going to come. And they can run away from it or duck it or something else Indiana Jones style, but most people don't even know that they're boulders lying around. So

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01
Yeah big boulders and is really kind of shine a light on how each individual person's journey is different. You know, there's no, there's no right or wrong way of doing it. And just to hear everyone's different experiences and how they kind of survive it, you know, I think is a great tool and a great asset for for indie filmmakers, and we need it. We need indie films more now more than ever, you know. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:26
I agree. 100% I think most people focus on the idle and not on the boulder that's gonna come down across them. Right, exactly. So Joseph, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:43
Yeah, man. Well, um, you know, since I was a little kid, I was always obsessed with films. I think the influence definitely came from from my parents. My mother was from Japan, and my father's from Poland. So they were both cinephiles, you know, arguing over Kieslowski and Andre Vida and Ozu and Kurosawa. So that sort of residue was always around. Me and my brothers, I'm the youngest of three brothers. And, you know, my mom really always tried to get us to watch different types of films, she would take us if Seven Samurai was screening in like Washington, DC, she would take us there to watch it. But you know, we, me and my brothers would want to go see Terminator two and sneak on our bikes in sneaking sentimental place. So so, you know, it was always there that influence and, you know, we mean, my brothers used to take like little VHS cameras out into the woods and make these silly little films where we chop off her head and roll a cam cantaloupe into the camera and cutting all in camera. And in high school, you know, I was I was a pretty terrible student in high school. And so a lot of the times the writing papers and stuff, I will just make sort of like these really bad VHS, little short films. And also, our morning announcements at the time we're on, we're on TV, and we come into class and watch more announcements. So I used to, like, make videos for that to promote the school dances so and so forth. But then, you know, the reality set in when I'm the college, that, first of all, like I didn't, I never thought that filmmaking was something that I could actually do make a living doing. You know, I grew up in Northern Virginia outside DC. So there was, there was no one. I wasn't around any artists, you know, I wasn't around anyone who, who just made films, or was a part of that world at all. And so I was just kind of like, falling following the status quo. You know, I went to I went to college, and I studied business, because that's what all my friends were doing. And I figured, I would just, you know, come back, I would graduate college and get a get a nine to five and sort of, I guess that's what my life supposed to be. And then when I got an internship, one summer doing a job like that. And I quickly realize that this is absolutely something that I do not want to do. And I need to figure out what I really want to do, you know, so, oh, there was an opportunity after college, a friend of mine was making like an indie film, a low budget film, and I had the opportunity to work on that as like an assistant in a PA. And that was the first time I saw the, the the whole process really in front of me, you know, of a film being made. And I think I was a 22 at the time 23 And once that once that happened, you know, the bug bit me and it was it was over and ever since then I've just been obsessed with trying to make films you know. So you know, I got about Rebel Without a crew and the the guerrilla indie filmmaker handbook.

Alex Ferrari 4:50
It's right back there.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 4:51
I moved back I moved to DC. And I was a I was walking dogs during the day and waiting tables. At night, saving up money, and I bought a you know, a dvx Panasonic dvx200 or whatever it was the great camera

Alex Ferrari 5:07
100A, it was a 100A That's why I shot my first short on it was a full 24p camera. Oh, so great.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 5:14
Yeah, man, those cameras look great, they still look great. I think to this day, they have such a great look to em. Oh, yeah. And then I just started hustling, I just started saving up money to make my first like short film. And I did that for for a few years. And I was very, you know, I was a person that was very adamant about not going to film school. You know, I was part of the like, film school, you know, I'm just gonna do it myself, and so on and so forth. But for me personally, and you know, everyone's journey is different, you know, if some people have, there's some people that have just had an amazing talent and skill, they really don't need to go to film school, you know, like a PTA or something like that, you know. But for me, I just, I kept making these short films, but I found myself sort of hitting this wall of, I don't know, just like, I just knew that there was more to it. And like I didn't, I just wasn't making anything that interesting. I didn't know anything about working with, with really working with actors, you know, and all that stuff. So and also my mom, you know, education is very important to my mom, and she's Japanese and my oldest brother's a doctor, so on and so forth. So, you know, that's when I started to think about going to film school. So and then, you know, I started to kind of look more closely at some film directors that I admire. And I was like, whoa, hold on a second. Like, you know, Aronofsky went to AFI, Scorsese and Spike went to NYU, you know, there are people that went to film school. So maybe, you know, maybe this is something that maybe this is what I need, you know, at this time. So, yeah, I had made all these shorts there. I knew there was only one film school, grad film school that I was going to apply to, which was NYU, new grad film. One of the main reasons is because it's the only film school that doesn't make you take the GRAri's. So

Alex Ferrari 7:07
I understand I understand. I understand this, bro. My high school transcripts were horrendous. When I got to college, I was like, first in my class. But when I was like, I went to film school, I was, I think I was first or second in my class. And then I went back to college just for fun, just to learn, like I went to a community college just take philosophy courses in psychology courses and stuff. And people like, what's your major? I'm like, I'm just here for fun. And they're like, What do you why do you what? So I get it, trust me, it does, I say decent GREs,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 7:36
Terrible standardized test taker, I got 1000 them, they tease like, so I knew there was no way you know, all those other films that I was, like, if I take the GRPs forget about it. And then, you know, a jury was always always a dream of mine to live in New York City, and to be like, the filmmaker living in New York City with all the like, the legendary iconic directors that have come from there. So I applied to NYU grad film. And, and I don't know how to live, but somehow I got in, out of the 3535 students that they accept. And then I think, you know, that's when, you know, there's a real pivot in terms of, I just kind of, you know, really ate, drank and slept cinema for that amount of time when I when I was in school, and I was around other great talented classmates and artists, and just studying film. And it was really, it was a tough time in a lot of ways. But a really, really special time. Because all that's all I really had to worry about. Now, obviously start to accrue a lot of student debt, which was, which is another thing which we can get to later later down the line. But yeah, that's, that's, that's basically, you know, I went to film school, I started making shorts. And then I made my first low budget feature film, in 2013. Film called Manasu CS and that actually, that was my thesis film. From from school. So So yeah, that's kind of

Alex Ferrari 9:11
The kind of the general the general like, I have to ask you. What did your Japanese mother say? When you said I want to be a filmmaker.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:19
You know, my mom is amazing thing. She has a she's a strong, strong Japanese. I didn't we didn't really have much of a relationship with our Father. We were raised by a single mother, me and my brothers. So you know, just raising three boys on your own. There's already a sort of toughness to her. But I think because she loves movies so much, you know, and she she's Yeah, she just she appreciates the art she's that she was like a ballroom dancer, professional ballroom dancer for a long time

Alex Ferrari 9:51
So she gets it she gets she got it

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:53
So she totally got it. I mean, I think she was very extremely worried for me many times, many, many Just along the way. But, you know, my oldest brother is, you know, neuroradiologist. So she got the doctors so that's good, you know, so, so I guess it could have been my youngest is like

Alex Ferrari 10:13
Yeah, you can have your it's your you can have fun. You're the artist, you're the artist. I have the doctor, I can have the artist as well, who is the best of both worlds? No, I get it, man. I get it. Now, was there a film that lit your fire? That your flame for this? Like, was there a movie you saw you just like, Man, I gotta, I gotta I gotta do some. I gotta, I gotta go shoot some movies.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 10:36
Oh, man. I don't know, man. It was like, it was it was all of them. You know, like, I was the 90s kid kind of like, I kind of feel like every filmmaker. There's like a window of their, their life. Maybe you say from like, eight. So like, 22 or something in the films that were sort of coming out in that time really, really impact you, you know. And so for me, yeah, it was like, you know, the, I mean, when I saw Fargo for the first time, I was like, Holy shit, you know, that's a movie that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:08
Dude, I was. I was, I was in college. And Pulp Fiction came out. I was in film school and I went to the theater down the street to go see Pulp Fiction. I literally remember falling out of my chair laughing at some of the scenes that were just so not because they were they were they were funny. But the audacity of what the filmmaker did, and how he was writing. And I was just like, what just happened? And I've had that moment a few times, watching a movie like Fight Club, the matrix Shawshank. There's certain movies that when you see them, they just like, I just things have changed, like Pulp Fiction is one of those movies. Yeah, No Country for Old Men Jesus, like, you know, if you want to go down the Coen Brothers filmography that's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 11:59
I mean, that's the perfect. It's the perfect film like that is like, I don't know. It doesn't get any better than that. And I love that movie. Unconditionally. Love that movie. Yeah, so I mean, it's all those films. And then it was kind of like a golden era of cinema in the 90s. No, people were doing their thing. Spike was doing this thing. Coen Brothers. Yeah, the matrix came out in 99. Right? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 12:22
Yeah. 99 Fight Club and the matrix both came out. And but 99 was a great year for movies. If I remember, there's a bunch of other movies that got released that year. They're just like, Jesus, like that was good in the 90s went out with a bang. My that time period for me was the 80s. And up until probably like the mid 90s. Up until I was around that time. And those are the movies that you know, Terminator.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 12:47
Terminator is probably the the film I've watched the most in the theater, I think. Because me and my brother would sneak sneak in, watch it over again. And it actually my mom took us to see that and I remember crying when when when Arnold's getting

Alex Ferrari 13:09
Cameron, one of the most underrated writers of his generation. I think he's a he's not an underrated filmmaker of his generation. But he's an underrated writer. They don't talk much about his writing, but he is one of the best writers of his generation and he might not be as flashy as some of the other more known screenwriters. But man you look at you look at Terminator, man and people listening if you were a kid, if you saw Terminator two in the theater, you like i Dude, I had I think I still have in my mom's house. The card like the the sporting card collection of the Terminator. Movie cards. Yeah, I had everything do I bought everything Terminator two, the books that it was just such a phenomenon. when that movie came out, it just it made Arnold Arnold. I think that's that was that was the one that really made him explode.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 13:59
It's a great film, and it's a great film. Yeah, but I would say, You know what, it was not a good, um, you know, there was something like, you know, I had studied business and you work if you do you want to lose, it's like you're working. You don't really know what you're really your job is what do you do contributing to really know and for me, like, filmmaking was tactile in the sense of like, you know, I write something, you know, 10 minutes short, I write it, and then I shoot it and I edit it. And then I can't remember what program I used to put it on the DVD, you know what I mean? And then I can I can show it to people, you have product in that, you know, that seeing that whole system, like that made sense to me. Like, it was very simple, you know, you write something you make something and then you try to show it to people. And when I was waiting tables, I would have stacks of my burnt DVDs with my really shitty I'm talking really shitty short films. And I would just give them out to like, people that would come into the restaurant, you know? And so So I think that was a big part of it. It was like the first thing in my life that I that I just understood. Obviously, there's the complexities and how deep it goes was I was so naive, you know what I mean? I was just young, just jumping off the ledge and in doing whatever, but but just something about, you know, you write something, shoot it, you make it, and it's there. It's very, I don't know, I just, it made sense to me.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
No, without without question. And I mean, I've had, I actually had a, like a nine to five as an editor in that corporate environment multiple times. And you just feel like, you don't, I don't know you. It's a paycheck. And it's nice when it's a nice paycheck. But it's not really fulfilling your soul in many ways. You know, definitely a creative soul. So I rather sometimes be broke and having fun. Especially when you're younger, when you're younger, you could do things like that when you get older, it's a little tougher to do these things. But when you were saying like, Oh, yeah, it was a really great time. But a tough time when I basically all I had to think about in school was film, and you just absorb yourself in watching movies, talking about movies, and making movies, learning about the process. And that was what film school was for me, like, I literally had three or 400 VHS tapes that I brought up to college with me, and I just watched them and I would rent stuff. And it was just five, six movies a day, it was insane. It was just, it's just something that you don't get an option, you don't get an option to do as much anymore. And the world we live in. Now, you also mentioned about school debt. You know, I've had multiple, I've had multiple conversations with filmmakers who one poor guy $300,000 in film school debt, you want to call? Yeah, and it was like, and he's like, I'm, I'm never gonna get that that's I'm done. I can't ever pay that off. You know, sometimes it's, it's all a value, it's a conversation, I'd love to hear your point of view, because I'm sure you still have a little bit of student debt. Maybe you've been lucky enough to pay it off, I was lucky to pay mine off pretty quickly what mines was, like 1820 grand for my entire film course. I went to a Tech Tech film college. And I was able to pay it off within a few years, but some of my friends just still around their neck. So what's your opinion on it?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 17:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't, man, it's tough. I've been really lucky and fortunate to have been able to sort of establish myself as a television director, and episodic television director. But there was some really dark times, especially like, after I was done with grad school. And basically, you know, you could at the time in the program, you could keep matriculating and taking out loans to live. And, you know, I don't know how I how good it is like, but you know, like, in terms of like, being responsible, but basically what I was doing is I would take out loans, and then I was going on, like research trips, and I was as I was, I was trying to make my first feature film, you know, so you think you could matriculate for like two to three years. And then you have to make your film and then you have to graduate. So, so I did that. And I and I went in so I took a big gamble, you know, and I went to a lot of a lot of debt, which is really, really, really terrifying. And then there was a moment, you know, after I made my feature film, and it got into film festivals and stuff like that, right. And I had a manager and I had agents and stuff but like I was I had no idea how I was gonna how I was gonna make money, you know? And so I was Yeah, I was thinking about moving back in back home and like working at the restaurant. I used to work there before I went to film school and like, you know, it was it was it was it was very very dark and also happening at the time was I was getting a lot of you know, scripts sent to me you know when different projects sent to me but I was saying no to everything because to be honest, the stuff that was being said was really bad. You know, there's a lot of bad shit out there. And you know, I'm not Scorsese and I'm not gonna get stuck in Sorkin so I can script sent to me I'm gonna get the fucking you know a piece together talk it's been rewritten like 20 times generic fucking programmer script and they're gonna want me to you know, I mean So yeah, there was a rough there was a rough like year there and then what actually ended up happening is my mom was a legend. You know, she was like, basically like, well, you need to you need to stop saying no to all this shit. She was like, in the fucking work. She was like, I I don't care if you think you I don't know who you think you are, you know, but you're not.

Alex Ferrari 20:04
I was I was thinking that in my head. I'm like, Look, I get you, man. I feel you. Because I was said crap too. But it's like, sir, like, I would rather direct crap to get my mug get something on the off the ground. And then and instead of work, you know working at you know, waiting tables. I mean look man, Tarantino, Tarantino, Scorsese. I mean, he worked with Corman, everybody worked with Cormen, you know, every, you know, Cameron did Parana too I mean, like it's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 20:34
No and then and then she was like, I think I think it was it was probably like, I can't remember those 2014 or 2015. But basically it was New Year, personnel worried and shit. And my New Year's resolution after talking to her was I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna say yes to everything. I'm gonna fuckin say yes to everything. I'm gonna go up for these films, I'm going to so and so forth. Anything that comes just let's let me read program my mind. And it's amazing how much everything changed once that once I did that, because, you know, so I started going up for these studio films and stuff that I'm, you know, I'll save you watch films, and stuff like that. But, um, but you know, I was pitching to Michael DeLuca, who was the head of Sony at the time, I was meeting with all these people I was, you know, my, my people were seeing me, and I was practicing a big tool that's part of being a director, which is basically being a salesperson of yourself, you know, pitching in on stuff, and is one of the one of the things that they really didn't teach us that much in film school, which I, I mean, I don't know how you prepare for that, you know, it's kind of like, you just have to be thrown into it. So I just started saying, yes, those stuff and like, you know, more and more things started. I almost got, you know, I never I was like me, between me and one a director, but the other director had made all this money for us to do some No, so no, but what came out of that was just more opportunities. And then finally, there was an opportunity. In my writing partner who I wrote my first feature film with, there was an opportunity to write a pilot for HBO, for the director, Tim Van Patten. Who's the legend? You know, he's directed the most of the episodes of sopranos, the pilot for Game of Thrones. And so that was our that was our first paid gig. And at the time, really, oh, my God, we made it. Lots of lots of lessons to learn about going through that process. Because after you're on your 10th rewrite of it, maybe you're not getting paid as much as you think you're getting paid when you see the first initial number, you know. Sure. Um, so. So that came and then, um, and then really, yeah, and then and then the opportunity to direct Narcos came. And again, I was in this like, yes. period of my life.

Alex Ferrari 22:56
It was this season was season two.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:00
Yeah, it was season two. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 23:02
So Narcos was Narcos at this point already.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:05
Yeah, it is. Yes, Narcos. Well, I'm so crazy. We're going in the Time Machine. I mean, Narcos was I think, you know, Narcos was well, I mean, there was House Of course naugus is one of the first original Netflix shows, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 23:20
It was one of it was one, if I remember correctly, it was in that first group, I mean, House of Cards, obviously is the one that crashed the door open but Narcos was then when I think within six months Narcos was announced

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:33
It's like the first 10 and I'm in Yeah. I mean, and I think the I think when I was interviewing for it, like the I don't know if the season had even really come out yet. So they didn't know that it was gonna be this like huge sort of global like it was it became their, like, big show internationally for a little while there. So, but when I was interviewing Florida, you know, it was just I, I didn't I didn't really know about it. So

Alex Ferrari 24:04
Did you know about Pablo? I mean, you obviously might have heard of Pablo Escobar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 24:08
I mean, I mean, the whole and I mean, this is why, you know, for all the filmmakers out there like you, you just have to make stuff you have to make stuff because that's if you don't have stuff to show people you got nothing in the only reason why I got Narcos is because my first feature film, which I shot in Colombia, in one of Ventura Colombia, it touched on you know, it was it dealt with the drug trade, but in a very, very different way. It's sort of the people that are most exploited by the drug play drug trade. But because I had made that film, my Colombian producer on that film was friends with the producing director on Narcos, his name's Andy bass. He's a he's a wonderful director, Colombian director. And he showed my film I had never met him before, but he it was like his favorite film that he'd seen in a while and, and then he showed it to the show, right? Eric Newman and then Eric Newman liked it. And I was on a, you know, Skype interview going forward. Basically, I mean, yeah, that's basically how it how it all started.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
So then so then you were on a plane down to Colombia. You shot and the shark won't be right or they didn't get Colombia. So yeah, I mean, I'm, I was fairly obsessed with those first few seasons. I've watched God let me because I've, I have a family who work, you know, who are Colombians, and like, you know, deep friends and family that were Colombians. I'm Cuban. But I you know, I'm fascinated by Pablo, huh?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:42
Yeah, I was gonna say Cubano

Alex Ferrari 25:44
Cubano de Miami. So I, it was it was I mean, it was such an amazing thing. And you didn't just direct one you drag it like five episodes. So I think you have five episodes. Right?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:58
I directed a five of Narcos and then the first two Narcos Mexico so I was a you know, a resident director. And I you know, again, I'm very very grateful for Miss amazing, that whole experience and and also I was the only I'm the only gringo to ever direct Narcos. They probably they all the other directors are these incredible Latin Latin American Direct. There's like Josie Paddy. And you know, Andy, obviously, Escalante, all these really, really amazing filmmakers. So for me, I was the lone gringo which very, very great. Yeah, it was yes. So I made my tiny little film right for like nothing. Basically, we shot on C three hundreds that were donated to us by Canon. And in this in cinema lenses had just come out the canon, similar lenses. And then my DP had to do light panels for my to shoot my whole entire first feature, that was the only lighting you had. And now I'm on a plane, correct? Blind down to do this ginormous television show with a crew of 200 people.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
I got to ask it, so I got to ask you, man. Alright, so how do you walk on the set the first day, I always love hearing these stories. Because when you walk on the first day of set, and you're like, I'm in a pretty intense scenario, even for a seasoned professional. It's a pretty intense scenario. And there's Narcos and yeah, it's all movie, but there's still you know, people around who are not nice guys. You know, so there's that stress as well. You know, where are you like, I'm sure security is off the chain on that plays in on the set everything. But when you walk on the set, and you talk to you look at the cast you had I you know, working on that second season, how do you walk on that set? And like what was the feeling you had when the day one of shooting like what what did what was going through your head man?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 27:57
Man, I mean, I was just it's interesting, because yeah, sort of my naivete was, in a way was a gift now that I've read, like six hours of television now. So like, I know what it's really all about, you know. But I gotta say, I just, I was really, really lucky. And I mean, I'm sure you know, all the people you have on your show. It's like, you got to work hard, and you got to be ready, but you got to have be lucky to Oh, yeah. And for me, what I was extremely lucky about with Narcos, my first this was my in mind you, I tried to like you interview for it, right? And they're like, oh, yeah, and then you know, in like, four months or whatever, that's when you're gonna go shoot so and you don't hear and you don't sign anything, you don't hear anything. So then I was like, Oh, I guess maybe this isn't happening or something. And then it's like, you know, about a couple weeks or a month out, and then they start engaging again. And I'm like, Holy fuck, I'm what's, what am I getting myself into? So I do like a mad frantic email to my team. And I say, you know, is there you know, you're the biggest fucking agency, can you because there's someone that I can like shadow here in New York just for a day just to see like, you know, I have no idea what it's like, you know, and they're like, Yeah, enough, nothing, nothing came out.

Alex Ferrari 29:24
Ofcourse, of course,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 29:25
The seat man is shooting this thing. And then you get on and I was like, but But I think, you know, it was too it's not on them. You know, it was me it was I was just too was too late. So luckily, again, all these little seeds of things that happen along the way. Because I had written or wrote that pilot for Tim Van Patten. I had established a good relationship with him and he's basically kind of come my main TV directing mentor like when I when I'm in a pickle or a tough situation. I always call him and he gives me the most I mean The most wise amazing amazing

Alex Ferrari 30:02
Yoda Yoda advice

Josef Kubota Wladyka 30:04
Exactly he's yoda. So it's about a week out. And I'm, like, terrified. And I in and I go over to his go over to his house and sit with him. And he's very patient and kind and he's like just asked me anything, there's no dumb questions, you know, there's no nothing. And so, you know, I sat there for three hours, you know, asking the dumbest dumbest questions. You know, I didn't know what, you know, the that he taught me what a tone meeting was, and like what you do, like in your first weeks of prep, and all in all of us, totally, I didn't know any of this stuff, you know. So, so that helped just kind of, at least get me the courage to get on the plane. But then again, once I flew down there, um, I was very, very lucky because I had an incredible first ad. His name is Oscar Farkas is Colombian, Colombian American, but we're very, very good friends to this day. And then Louis son sons was the DP that I worked with. And I was lucky because they were really, really patient with me, they were really, you know, I was very honest with like, where I was coming from, in my experience, you know, and so, so they really, they really kind of just helped kind of hold my hand through the whole process, which is incredible, you know, because, for example, like, my film, my films, both my films really, but I, I've made with non actors, basically. So for my first film, you know, I had built this relationships with these kids that act in my film for months, you know, months, and then we were in like a four week rehearsal camp before we started shooting. So we're basically family, you know, on a TV shoot, you show up, you shake the actors hands, and you block the scene, you start shooting. So for this, for me, was all the other stuff I could figure out, you know, like, where to put the camera and you know, that type of stuff, the tech stuff. That's, that's it, but yeah, that's like, that's the that's just second nature. And then at the end of the day, you realize it's all the same shit, it doesn't matter if you're on a gajillion budget thing or a no budget. It's what's happened. What's the life in front of the camera? Right, right. That's everything. So for me, that was the real big mystery part was like working with the actors, because you don't, you don't really know them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm used to having this close, like relationship with them. So Oscar, my ad was like, you know, I can really dumb questions like, you know, so like, what happens? So they come and like, you know, do we rehearse for a long time? Or for like, what are you doing? And he's like, he's like, here, here, this is what you do, you know, usually read the scene, read the words. And then you know,

Alex Ferrari 32:50
This is insane. This is insane. Like how can like a multi million dollar production is bringing bringing you in, and they're like, you're, like schooling you along the path of the process. And it's wonderful that they did that. But I find it so fascinating that the showrunner saw enough talent in you and said, he'll figure it out. We've got a support team around him. He'll figure it out. But I want his vision in my show. That's, that was a good showrunner does.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 33:22
Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's the magic of Eric Newman. You know, he is that's he, he finds these amazing filmmakers. And at that time, it was so amazing about Narcos that they really empowered you to try stuff. You know, I mean, so once I got comfortable. And once I figured out, you know, I mean, it's out, like I said, a couple days into shooting and you're like, Oh, you very, it's it's you get it. It's the same process, you know, but I remember one of my episodes, we did this crazy, one shot sequence, it was like a three minute, one wonder. And this was my first time doing television. And, and normally you have, like, you know, three weeks to rehearse and prepare that none of us none of that, that it was chaos. There was none of that. But we still managed to pull it off. But what was so great about Eric, like I said, is he's the type of showrunner that, if you pitch it to him, and he and he, and he likes it, you know, then then he'll fully support you for doing it. And for this particular one, you know, I wanted wasn't trying to do another cool one, or for the sake of being a cool one. Or it was actually the first time that Pablos family was actually in the line of fire in danger for the first time in the whole series. So I wanted to ground the audience subjectively, with his family in this house as everyone from around but sort of closing in so we're just experienced with them through this one shot. But again, you know, Eric, was 100% on board and supported it and, and yeah, I got really lucky with that whole team son sons, the DP they were just amazing, sweet, sweet, really, really great people. And yeah, And it's like, you know, I had I had spent a long time in Colombia, I shot with a lot of crews in South America and all that stuff. So it was a fun loving everyone is just, you know, fun, everyone's happy. It's had that kind of love very, very good vibe to it. And Vagner Mora, the actor plays a Pablo is just like, I mean, amazing, amazing to work with. You know, he watched my film The first. The first time I came on set, actually, we were we were, we were scouting, but they were shooting. And so I went to kind of say hi to some of the people and he was like, so nice, man. He gave me a hug. And he's like, I loved your film. He like watched my film all this stuff. I was like, what this is, I think I'll be okay. And I still wasn't okay, you know.

Alex Ferrari 35:44
So, so So let me ask you, I cuz I love asking this question, because I think we all as directors have this day. Is there a day on that first season of Narcos that you felt like everything was coming down crashing around you? You're losing the sun? The camera doesn't work? Something happens? And what was that day for you? If it wasn't every day? Which happens? And how did you break? How did you get through it? How did you figure it out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 36:12
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that, I mean, yeah, in television. I mean, television is a different beast, you know, you that's the that's the first thing you're shooting seven to 10 pages a day, it's a totally different than, like, when it's like your film, you know what I mean? And so there was a lot of days like that. I mean, there was one particular day where we were shooting this, like, huge set piece, you know, of course, they like dependent of course, we're behind schedule, the fucking sun setting all that shit. And it's like a three convoys of like, different, like military and lost pet bears, and everyone's can converging on this one spot, and we had to block off this whole fucking thing. And like, in like, and, you know, the scene was just Hell's written, or like how man, um, I just, I just knew, like, I was like, this wasn't clearly like, laid out, you know what I mean? And, yeah, and Pedro Pascal, who's fucking just a gym at the gym. I was kind of emailing him ahead of time, you know, like, you know, what do you think about this? Like, I don't know about this, this, this? And he's like, you're right, you're right. We'll talk about it when I got some. And so we just run out time, we're trying to work out the scenes to just make it make sense. And I remember we were shooting it. And we just, we had to put three cameras up this one on an 85, you know, one long and then the, you know, and just kind of just hose it down, which is not ideal, but I will say,

Alex Ferrari 37:46
I love that term. hose it down that first time I've heard hose it down before I love that.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 37:52
Yeah, but But in that chaos, because a lot of the times the chaos makes its way that energy into you know, and it's that classic thing. So I was sitting at I was like, Holy fuck, this is like, this is gonna be the fucking worst. And then, when I saw the editors assembly of it for the first time, I was like, Oh, hey, this works this way. And then we worked on it some morning, and it ended up being like, I'm actually one of the parts of the episodes that I really liked. So there you go. So they never know.

Alex Ferrari 38:25
Now what was, you know, what was the biggest lesson you learned working on Narcos, you know, as a director as a person as everything because I mean, that's a pretty, you know, Trial by Fire scenario. You know, you're kind of taught you were tossed into the deep end of the pool. On on one of the world's biggest television shows the second season coming back. So everybody was waiting to see what happens to Pablo. We all know what happens the Bible, but like, the story and everything. What was that? What was the biggest takeaway you had from that working on that first season?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 38:59
Mmm hmm. I mean, I guess. I mean, there's so much I'm trying to I'm trying to think trying to jump in the DeLorean. And what I was thinking, I mean, I mean, I think a big thing I learned is what I said earlier, is that when you jump to something bigger and scale, the every, you have more tools at your disposal, right, but the process is still the same, you know, and then again, the life in front of the cameras, that's what's the most important thing always. So I think that that after I did Narcos, it gave me a confidence in terms of like, knowing what's really important. And obviously, as I as that went on, as I continue to, especially in television, direct and television, you kind of you learn how to kind of dial in, what what you need to focus on because when everything is at your disposal, it's easy to get lost in like Oh my god, I can park and I can do a drone shot I can do this, you know, but but again the drama of life in front of the camera and what's what's the story and what's what does the characters want? And what are their obstacles and all that stuff is all that matters. It's the same. It doesn't matter what size production you're on.

Alex Ferrari 40:19
Yeah. And it's, it's good. It's like I know it's kind of like, It's like that old saying like, baseball is a simple sport. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball, and it's for for filmmaking. It's like there's an actor, there's a camera, there's a lens, and there's light, and, and a location and it could be 1000 million people on the set, or it could be just you and the actor, and you hit the record button. And you're doing everything. Yeah, as long as what's in front of the lens is impactful in the storytelling. That's all that really matters. One thing I think the Hollywood has kind of lost its way they have a lot of spectacle but at a certain point spectacle with Look, when we first saw Terminator two men, Terminator two had a lot of spectacle. But there's so much heart. So much heart so much story so much character in that movie. Jurassic Park, you watch it, you're like, oh my god, there's a dinosaur. No one's ever seen a dinosaur before. But the movie was good. The story was good. The characters were good. At a certain point spectacle were just like, like it really at this point. We're at this point in what we're as of this recording. How what else is there to be put on screen that's gonna make us just go. Oh, wow. Like,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:38
Video game lesson? Yes,

Alex Ferrari 41:40
Avatar, like the avatar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:42
Spectacle without drama is nothing, right. Like, it's so the reason why Terminator two is incredible is because the fuck ins the set pieces in the action are grounded in the dramatic experience of what the characters are going through. So it's not just spectacle for, for the sake of spectacle, you know? And I mean, yeah, I mean, this, we could talk about this for five hours. But yeah, movies now or I don't even know it. There's a lot of spectacle.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot like, there's a lot of spectacle, and we could talk about, you know, what's going on in Hollywood and all these kinds of things. But it's all you know, corporations have taken over and filmmakers aren't in control anymore to a certain extent. And then the UK and then you occasionally you know, give Marty $200 million to make something or you give, you know, James Cameron or you give Spielberg and you give these guys or PT or somebody a little bit of money to go off and do what they do. But I'm not seeing a lot of the new generation of those like, we're, we're still, we're still, we're still squeezing the juice out of the 70s 80s 90s and early 2000 filmmakers. But there really isn't. I mean, don't get me wrong there. Obviously, there's a lot of great new filmmakers like yourself and others. But you know, you know what I'm saying like, you know, people, when Quinton makes a movie, everyone shows up, you know, when Petey makes a movie, everyone shows up like licorice pizza, and you know, all these kind of stuff. But they're coming rare and rare, unless they're on Netflix.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:12
And listen, and like in those, all those people, all those great directors, Jane Campion, and all of them there, they're there, they been grandfathered in, you know what I mean? They're there, they came in a totally different generation. I mean, the conversations I have all the time with, like my colleagues that are filmmakers and stuff like that. It's just like, it's just totally different. Now, it's a totally different time you make your first feature. And, you know, you can you either, you know, you can become an episodic television director and manager, I'm not saying any of this is bad. Or you jump to like a $200 million. Huge movie,

Alex Ferrari 43:48
There's no in between.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:50
But, but the Yeah, like, it's just, I'm constantly fighting with myself, like, how do you? How do you differentiate yourself? How do you make yourself build a body of work? As a director, you know, and it's hard. I think it's just, I think it's a it's a, it's a harder time right now. But that's why I give a lot of props to like this podcast, and this whole idea of keeping the indie film flight going. Because I, what I always come back to is, we just got to make our movies, we just got to make our art, we got to make bold movies and take chances and like, look, the streaming wars in the void that they go into, yeah, I don't fucking you know, who knows how they're going to be seen. But if we don't make them, then we're really at a loss, you know, so I think just people gotta keep pushing through and trying to make their weird little indie films, and we need it more now more than ever, but like, yeah, the days of like, your film premiered at Sundance, and then you get a three picture deal. And like in the Weinstein Company, it's gonna, you know, give you 15 million to make your little drop. They don't make those movies anymore. You know, I mean, if it's a genre film Yeah, you have a chance like if it's a horror film, you know?

Alex Ferrari 45:03
Or an action. Yeah, yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 45:06
But you know, it's just we're in a I don't know. It's a totally different There is to be the next PTA I don't know. I don't know

Alex Ferrari 45:15
Why i mean look. I love I love to I love this is just to film geeks talking now. But you know like would if PT and Quinton show up today as 20 Somethings? Do they go into episodic? Is that is that the is that the route is that is that the route they go? Because they're not going to get you know you're not going to get but there's no way Pulp Fiction gets Produced by Studio. There's just no way it was barely. It barely got produced then because it was because of the because of Miramax. Miramax had to juice at the time it was it was a certain time period that those kind of films were being made. But no major studio was going to do Pulp Fiction. It was a it was read by a bunch of major studios and they didn't do it. Or Boogie Nights. Can you imagine doing a movie about pornographers in today's world, like, you know, or taxi driver? You know, try to get taxi driver made by Sony today, which is what who owns it? You can you imagine these kinds of films, these films don't get made anymore. It's very rare, rare for those to get made. And so many filmmakers now think that it's still the 90s. And they're making their films thinking that that's what's going to happen, like all I need to do is get into Sundance or South by or Tribeca. And I'm like, Nah, man, I've talked to all those guys and gals. It ain't no rainbows and butterflies, even if you can get that it's just, it's just not, you know, I'm

Josef Kubota Wladyka 46:41
There's way more competition now, man. So many filmmakers now. I mean, there's numerous filmmakers. I know that films that premiered at a huge festival and they still, you know, they still haven't gotten distribution, or if they do if it's some streamer, you know, they offer them like nothing, nothing, you know, like 5g and 5000 mg or something like, so it's a different time. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I don't know how we can. I don't know, again, like I said, I just I just gonna keep trying to fight the fight and keep trying to make my films and I'm very grateful and lucky that I have television to help pay my bills, and so on and so forth. Oh, so getting way back to the debt question. So long story short, so I did Narcos had all this debt. And then I was like, basically, I am gonna do I think I did. It was a really rough time, like six or seven. Anyway, I'm gonna do like seven episodes of television all in a row, and pay off all my debt at once. And that's what I did.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Yeah. God bless you, brother. I mean, listen. And the thing is that most filmmakers don't get that opportunity. You know, they don't get that chance to look, dude, I threw down 50 grand on my commercial demo reel, shot on 35. Back in the 90s. And I'm like, I've arrived. Everyone recognize my genius. And I sent my demo reel out. And it was it was a rough go for a bunch of years. And I wanted to dead. And you know, I wrote a whole book about the darkest time where I almost made a movie for the mob. And that whole time and that whole craziness that I did. But, you know, it took me a long time to be able to get back out of out of all the debt that I put myself in it might have not been film school debt, but it was just debt, trying to chase that dream. And I've had people on the show who've lost their house, you know, with families and things. So you've got to be smart about this dream. It's unfortunate that we have chosen an art form. That's probably one of the most expensive art forms on the planet. And I wish I could. Yeah, I wish I could. No, I wish I could just pick up a guitar. And I'd be like, Okay, I played for three or four hours today. I feel fulfilled. Like I wish I could do that. I wish I could draw, you know, but it's just not the not not mine. I got bit by that damn bug early on, and I can't get rid of it. Now it's stuck with me. Now I want I wanted to ask you about your new film. Catch the fair one, man. How did you because you wrote and directed it correct? Yes. How did you come up with like, how did that movie come to be? It doesn't seem like a film that everyone's jumping the throat $300 million at so how did you get the whole thing off? How did you get it off the ground? How did how did you come up with the script and everything?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 49:29
Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, again, we that a five year journey to get to get this this one made. And in between doing television I kept making sure chasing the dragon like I got to make my second film. I gotta keep fighting. I gotta keep fighting. So I actually the I wrote the script, but the story I came up with the lead in the film. Her name is Kaylee McLennan, ogg Reese, and she's a professional, indigenous world champion boxer. And I met her. When was this 2004 by viewers five years ago, I actually found her through social media through my friend's boxing gym. I myself was really getting into boxing, and I started following her. And, you know, I just, she's a great advocate and artist, and she uses her platform to touch on things that she wants, you know, to bring awareness to, and I was researching and studying and learning more about like the missing, murdered indigenous women epidemic in North in North America and all this stuff. So something in my gut just like reached out, I was like, I want to meet this person. So I reached out to her. I borrowed my friend's little for my front, my friends, Hyundai Sonata that barely works. I took my DSLR and I went up there, and I just spent started spending time with her started hanging out with her and telling her you know, I have an idea about this film about this, this woman who's you know, looking for, for searching for a sister and I want but you know, I want you to I want to see if one if it's something you would be interested in acting within? Can I just hang out with you? And, and she was, it was one of those things where it's similar to my first film where like, I drove up there at the time, she because she's a like, legit world champion boxer. She was she was training for a fight. So she had to go to the gym to train in Providence, Rhode Island, right? Big six bucks thing. So I was like, Can I just can I just go with you? Can I? Can I hang out with you while you go and bring my camera? She's like, Yeah, sure. So we go into this our typical boxing gym, right that has like, you know, all these jacked, sweaty dudes and like, checks champion, Golden Globe champions. They're dudes talking shit in the corner and everything. And you know, people are talking, She's the only woman in there people talking to her. And she's like, you want to go a couple rounds, whatever. She's like, Yeah, we could spar a little. And she takes her piercings out, she gets in the ring, and she just starts firing these dudes. And it was in that moment, the inexplicable thing of a filmmaker, I was filming and I was like, Alright, this is I don't know exactly what this movie is. But, uh, but there's no turning back, you know, we're gonna go on this journey. So cut to many, many years of us spending time together working together. She we developed the story together. I, for many years prepared to act in it. And yeah, and then we shot we shot this crazy film. And we shot it in 2019. Right before the right before the pandemic. So we literally finished it right at the end of 2019. And yeah, it was a you know, in terms of, you know, she's not she's not a star, it's the classic in the, you know, it's is the classic in the story, like we had to piecemeal and hustle to find the money to make the film. And we I'm not going to say how much but it was, you know, we didn't make the film for a lot of money. But I was lucky to have, you know, amazing producers on board with me. Two of which I went to film school with. I like I constantly try to keep working with my colleagues from film school, because I feel like that's really important. And yeah, you know, there was a lot of nose, there was a lot of ups and downs. There was a lot of I should just give up on this. You know, all that classic stuff.

Alex Ferrari 53:09
Oh, yeah. Like, like, that's the thing, too. I always love asking as well as like, how do you keep going, man? Because so many people listening right now have a project they've been trying to get along, I'll get off the ground that a lot of them probably are in year five right now. You know, it's take acne and I remember I was hustling my, you know, a couple of my projects for years. And it's like, how do you just keep going? How do you not get defeated? By all the nose? Because it's constant? No, it's It's constant nose? Yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 53:33
Well, that let's say, you know, one thing that so you know, I get inspired by real people. Right. And so, like, the one beautiful thing about making a film, and it's similar to how I made my first film. So for me, writing and dreaming the film before everyone gets invited over to your dinner table, you know, what I mean? Is is amazing. I love it. You're just dreaming the movie, you know, and and you haven't, you haven't gone out. And you know, started to ask people for money, all that stuff. So like, I love that part. Then when you transition, this is the part that I'm not, I don't love but it's necessary, right? Is when you have to turn into the used car salesman or whatever, whatever the fuck, right? And you have to start putting your film out there getting your script up there, you know, your deck and all that and you have to start getting nose, but not just nose, you get all the criticism and feedback and all that stuff. And so and then like, you know, time will just it just starts flying by you know, and then again to to stay afloat. I have to go do a couple episodes of television and then come back, you know, but I'm building this relationship with this real person. But what was for me, what I love about that process is at any moment during this time, which is like the worst for me is like finding the money basically up until you're greenlit and then you're going to go into pre production. At any moment. I can grab my kid, I could grab my camera. I could go meet up with Kaylee. I could Bring my friend who's an actor, and we could work on the scenes, you know, we could shoot these scenes, we could explore the scenes, we could change the script, you know, we could keep working on it. In for me, I realized, like, I think I do that subconsciously, because it makes me feel like I'm making it feels makes me feel like I'm making the film, even if it's like, no one is gonna, you know, this is just for us to explore. But I feel like I'm being a filmmaker, I have actors, I have a camera, and we're working on the material.

Alex Ferrari 55:27
Sure. So that kind of that kind of it makes you feel like you're doing something because you're working and you are doing something but you're not there just yet. But you're doing, you're working on it, you're bidding up the material, you're you're, you're putting the you're putting paint to Canvas, if you will, it might not be the big canvas you want but you're practicing essentially, which is that just

Josef Kubota Wladyka 55:47
It made me feel like I'm being a filmmaker, as opposed to just like a salesperson, you know, begging begging everyone to make your film which I said again, is a that is a necessary part of the process. But

Alex Ferrari 56:00
Unfortunately, it unfortunately it is my friend it is now after watching the film, and how did you stay sane as a filmmaker and as a creative making a film like this that's so dark. And it has so many dark scenes. And you know, the subject matters rough and there's the scene some of these scenes are just like, I just didn't want to be in the room, which is great as it's a testament to you as a filmmaker, because I'm just sitting here watching it. I'm just I don't want to be here. This is some some terrifying, I don't want to be here. How did you as a filmmaker and an artist, stay sane during that process? I see it for four minutes, but I know what it took to make those four minutes. So how do you stay sane during that process, man? Cuz you don't seem like a dark dude. Maybe you were working some stuff out jail? I'm not sure. But I mean, because when you first got when I first got on the call with you, I was like, this is not the guy expected. made this film. Like he seems like such a nice, well balanced dude. So I don't know how you made this film, dude.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 57:03
Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it was a lot through the collaboration with Kaylee. And, you know, it was it was one of the best artistic collaborations with with someone that I've worked with before, like, and I think like, you know, from very early on, when we were just talking about trying to make this film together and everything we in just the themes and stuff that it was touching on. And, you know, she has a lot of experience going around, and she's met people that's lost loved ones, and so on and so forth. And like, her perspective was so important to me. And, you know, she was like, it's got to be dark. You know, she, she, you know, she was like, We if we're gonna go into this world, and we're going to fictionalize it, and it's our artistic interpretation, well, then we got to fuckin, you got to kind of rattle the audience a little bit, you know, you gotta you got to make people feel uncomfortable. And then, of course, as a director, I think, you know, for me, just with the tools of being a filmmaker, when you're in there, constructing scenes that make the audience evoke something, you know, it can be you know, laughter can be as as gratifying. But also, you know, suspense and terror is also really, really fun using all the different tools using the sound using the music using how you shot it, you know what I mean? So, so yeah, but I will say it's been, I've lived with it, it's just been the next movie is very, very,

Alex Ferrari 58:34
It's a slapstick comedy. It's a it's a sequel, two, airplane. Got it. That's what you're doing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:40
Now I'm reading it now. And trust me, it is. It is very, very different. It's another film that will be impossible to finance. It is a 6060 year old Japanese woman who loves to dance ballroom dancing.

Alex Ferrari 58:51
Oh, that's huge. That's very high concept. Right? You'll be able to get to 300 million easy for that. What are you talking about?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:59
We keep fighting the fight? Right?

Alex Ferrari 59:01
That's great. And that's the insanity of what we do. I mean, that is the insanity of being in this business. And I joke about the I call it the beautiful sickness are the beautiful illness because that's what it is. We're, we're not Well, I mean, and artists aren't, you know, that's why we're not wired the same as everybody else, you know, and it's this, this compulsion to create that drives us in our lives, and it's something very difficult for people who aren't artists to understand.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 59:32
And it Oh, yeah, we're aliens to them.

Alex Ferrari 59:35
Yeah, it is. It is a compulsion. It's almost an act. It's a sickness. It's kind of like this thing that you just kind of keep doing it but it's beautiful in the same set in the same breath so that you're going after that storyline is awesome and I can't wait to watch that movie and, and you'll get you know, get and you'll get the financing for it and you'll get it made I you know, but I it's it's so Yeah, that's the funny thing too, you just finished a really difficult movie, you're like, instead of like, you know, picking maybe a little low fruit, like going a little, you know, just something like hanging like low hanging fruit that you might be able to pick off. Like, maybe I won't make the main character completely impossible to cast or fight. But you are as an artist you like, this is a story I want to tell. And that's powerful. That's a powerful, that's, that's a powerful.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:00:25
I mean, look, I grew up with, like, I grew up in a very diverse area with all different types of people. And, you know, it's wasn't the type of people that I was hanging out with my friends. And I, you know, it wasn't really in the movies and on TV, you know. So it was just one of the first things I said, when I became a filmmakers, that's one thing that I'm always gonna try to do is just, is just to put, you know, more diverse people in leads, you know, and because once you do it, then people will be more open to once they see a movie, you know, with someone, then it's, they're more open to, and then we can continue to keep making movies, you know, it just opens up everything. And it's, like I said, it comes back to just making stuff. You just gotta, you just gotta make, you just got to make this stuff. And yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
I was running. I was I remember running around town, with with my project, and it had a female lead as an action star. And people like, nobody wants to see an action star an action movie with with female lead. Nobody wants to see that. And I'm like, Guys, can you please I mean, and then Kill Bill came out. And then and then slowly, but surely, hey, women could be badass, too. It's but that's just the, you know, it's just, it's just the world we live in. But let's, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01:50
Mm hmm. Hmm. Yeah. It's tough because I still feel like I'm very inexperienced in green. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:06
But, enough, fair enough.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:02:09
I would say there's a few things I'm thinking but I would say don't get caught up in the result. Enjoy, and embrace the process. I think when I was younger, and I was starting out, I was just fixated on the end result of my short film that would then get into some huge festival, and just thinking about all the stuff that it could do for me, but that's not the real work, the real work is being present and working through the process. So I think, gum, you know, it's easy to get fixated, especially now with like, I mean, it's so hard now because like, with, like social media and all this stuff in like, houses, who's gonna see your movie? And is it going to be? Is it ever going to get distributed and I those are valid things to think about. But if you really want to do it, you got to just not think about that. And you got to make the film because I mean, how many filmmakers do you know that have been talking about making their first film for years and years and years? And I think what happens is when you're thinking too much about the result of things that paralyzes them and then they look they don't make anything, you know what I mean? So you got to be an artist and you got to make second piece of advice I would say is you gotta you got to experience life to a certain extent you have to you know, fall in love get your heart broken, go travel to backpack to South America, like I did go learn a language, see the world, Rabobank, whatever it is, kind of mess up your life a little gain some experience, because your perspective and your point of view, when you're directing is kind of, it always falls back on that, you know, it's going to come through subconsciously. So the more life that you've experienced, the more you understand other people and human behavior. It's just the stronger and more empathetic in, I think, filmmaker he'll be so I think you gotta, you know, obviously make your movies make all your stuff, but you know, don't just sit in your apartment all day get. And it's ironically, it's horrible to say now, because that's what I've been struggling with that you can't fucking go anywhere, you know, the pandemic. It's like, you know, I'm a I'm a drifter, man, you know, and I was, I was lucky enough, I just shot for seven months in Japan, this television show during the pandemic, which was really hard, but in retrospect, I was so grateful for it, because otherwise I'd just be sitting here in my studio apartment for six months. So yeah, sorry, sorry, I went on a long tangent

Alex Ferrari 1:05:00
No worries, no worries. No, but I agree with you so many times young filmmakers, the first movies they put out are just basically rehash stuff that they've seen. And that's what you do as an artist. When you first start, you know, you draw, you draw what you've seen, or you paint what you've seen you play music of the music you listen to, that's how art starts, but you have to find that voice. And that voice is found by living. Not my job, not robbing a bank, but everything else you said. Joking. Hey, man, we we live in weird times, brother, we live in weird weird times. But I agree with you, 100% it's that you, you have to live and, you know, I'm getting you know, I'm 47. So I've been around the block a little bit, I got a lot of shrapnel in me. And I remember the stuff that I was writing when I was in my 20s I'd look at it now. I'm like, this is this, this is no idea what he's talking about. Like he could tell right away where I was my mindset there. And as you live life a bit more you become a more more, you know, fully formed soul that you can actually put into your work. And some people have that liquid some people have that right off the bat and they're masking their their anomalies, you know, but others Exactly. But you can't you can't and everyone listening, you cannot compare yourself to masters. You cannot compare yourself to Talentino like, oh, I can't write when I quit, and nobody can write like quit no one can write life's work. And no one can write like Shane Black. Like these guys are, who they are. And don't feel bad. Just like I can't make I can't write music like Mozart. Like don't feel bad, man. It's okay.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:06:40
Let me tell you, I have a little posted up on my wall. Here's what it says. Comparison is the thief of all joy. So you can't if you compare yourself to all these other filmmakers in every every video, every filmmaker does it. person made their first feature when they were like 26 and then it

Alex Ferrari 1:07:00
It starts with it starts with Orson Welles at 23 Then you're like, Okay, how old was Spielberg? Okay, so

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:07
But then what ends up happening is like I said, all that all that sort of going down those rabbit holes, all it does is paralyze you and you don't make your stuff. So I think another thing that this all ties into is like you're saying, it all comes down to patience as well because you want it all at once. You know, you want it you want to break through. And it's a it's a long journey.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:32
It is man it is it's it's a it's a miracle that anything ever gets done. It truly is. But we love it because we're crazy. And that's the way that is our plight in life is to be artists and filmmakers. And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, oh man of today of today of today.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:54
Oh, yeah, every you could tell me this question tomorrow and it could be three different films. I would say one that's always on the top of my list is Milos Foreman's Amadeus. That's so good. One of my all time all time favorite films. My mom had it on LaserDisc. For me, my brothers used to watch the tone of it. It's hilarious. F Abram Murray performance is incredible. The production design, it's just such a watchable film like and I love films that have a lot of music involved in them into the editing and visual language. And that's a film where it just blends everything. So well. And I also love classical music. So that's, that's one of my all time favorites. Mmm hmm. It's tough to stop. I think my old time one sock film would be Goodfellas. Yeah, you know what the one sock fit what it wants to film is?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
No, I don't know what a one sock film is. What is the one sock film?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:02
Oh, okay. So I might be quoting this wrong. But so I don't remember when this was but at some point, I think it was Guillermo del Toro, I could be wrong. He tweeted or wrote that that was the film. I think he was saying Zodiac was a one sock film. And then he explained what it once I've done it so once I film is your TV's on, right, movies on you're getting ready to leave, right and you're putting all your clothes on. Right? And then you put one sock on and you're watching the movie and then you just sit there with one sock on and watch the rest of the movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:35
Great. That's awesome. Goodfellas is a one sock film.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:39
Yes. Without question Goodfellas is my one sock movie because it doesn't matter where I am. I just watch it. And when I'm on a flight in there's all these other movies that I should watch. I usually just watch Goodfellas. And again, I think you know, the energy and the filmmaking that Scorsese the language he uses it Just so watchable you know, I mean, there's just the energy to it that like, sure it's It's low. And then third film. I don't know. I feel like I have to do like something classic problem. Do whatever you want it.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:14
Oh, great. We'll talk. Yeah, talk. Your story's amazing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:17
I got some love to the Japanese. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:21
My friend it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today man. I know we can geek out for another two, three hours but I appreciate you coming on the show man. Listen to continued success. When does your the new film come out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:32
So IFC is distributing it much love the ISC. Thank God. It's been amazing working with them. It comes out February 11. There it will be in theaters and on VOD at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
Fantastic.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:47
And certain cities, they're still I think they're still figuring out all of the exact cities and you know, but yeah, February 11.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:54
I appreciate you brother. Continued success, man. And thank you for thank you for taking me down the journey with you, man. It was fun.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:11:01
Thank you. I really, really appreciate it.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 388: Hemingway and the Art of the Documentary with Lynn Novick

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'd like to welcome to the show, Lynn Novick. How you doing, Lynn?

Lynn Novick 0:19
Great. Thanks so much for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:20
Thank you so much for being on the show. I am a big fan of your work. I've seen many of your documentaries over the years, I've gifted many of your documentaries, especially to to my father who just devoured baseball. And other things like that. And jazz. I know you were part of those projects with Kenya, as well. So and I dying to ask you how the hell you do these things. So before we get started, how did you get into the business? How did you get into being a filmmaker?

Lynn Novick 0:52
Sure. Well, first, before I get started, thank you for having me. I'm a little bit subconscious, because I had some dental work, and I'm missing a tooth. And so anyway, I asked your forgiveness about that. But it's a temporary situation. So there you are

Alex Ferrari 1:02
in there it is, in looking in the world that we live in a missing tooth is very low on the priority list of things that could happen so anyway.

Lynn Novick 1:20
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:21
in the grand scheme of things, the way the world is working, a little bit of dental is, I'll take that over the worst things that could happen to you in today's world.

Lynn Novick 1:29
So for sure, especially nowadays, my goodness, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:32
exactly.

Lynn Novick 1:32
Minor nothing. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:34
So how did you get it? Yeah.

Lynn Novick 1:36
So you know, I was, I would say, if I look back on my trajectory, such as it is, now it didn't, wasn't clear to me when I was first starting out. I didn't know what I went through. When I got out of college, I was very kind of lost. And I actually saw a number of documentaries, both on PBS and in the movie theater back in those days, which is in the mid 80s. That made me think, wow, you know, I don't really know what I want to do with my life, I might go to law school, or maybe I'm gonna be a professor, I really didn't know. And I just was so transfixed by the power of storytelling, true stories on a big screen based on history and things that really happened. And I love photography, and I loved history. And I just thought maybe I could do that. No idea how or what it would involve. And you know, if a film is well made, you really don't see the effort. It's like the swan going along, and you're just gliding on the water, but you don't see the feet, doing all this below the surface. So I had no clue what was involved in making a documentary, or how challenging it can be or how rewarding but I just naively thought I'd like to do that. And I actually applied to film school. And I got in. This was in the mid 1980s. There weren't many programs where I couldn't find any that taught documentary filmmaking. They're all narrative, scripted, based. And so I decided not to go to film school because I didn't think I had the imagination, frankly, to make up stories and to tell them on the big screen. And I really want to tell true stories. So I decided to apprentice myself if I could. And I really did go through kind of an apprenticeship starting at the PBS station in New York City WNET, for six months. And then I worked for Bill Moyers on a series of programs that he was doing at the time. And then I freelance for a while and I kind of each job I had, I learned a little bit more about the process, and different pieces of it that I could sort of master. So archival research, filming interviews, organizing material, writing a script, you know, different aspects of what kind of goes into any particular film. And luckily for me, I did hear that this filmmaker named Ken Burns was working on a film about the Civil War. And I thought, wow, that that's my dream job. And I managed to meet someone who knew someone who knew someone who can, and literally was so lucky that somebody quit as he was finishing the film. And he really needed someone to come in and help finish up the sort of administrative licensing process for all the pictures they used. So I just walked in the door at the right time, I had enough experience to do the job he needed done. And when we finished that, I was looking for another job. We only had a six month job when I first came. And he said, Oh, wait, don't leave. I'm going to do the series on Baseball, and you should stay and produce it. Wow. That was for me jumping off the high diving board. I had never produced a series I didn'y know about baseball,

Alex Ferrari 4:26
like a 38 hour looking like

Lynn Novick 4:31
joking the other day because the original proposal he told me was five hours. It turned out to be 18. Exactly. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:39
So when you work when you work with Bill, memoria, did you work on a power of myth?

Lynn Novick 4:44
I did.

Alex Ferrari 4:45
Oh, my God, you were. So you were there with Joseph Campbell. And we're not there. But

Lynn Novick 4:50
I wasn't there. Actually, when I came onto the project. This is a series of interviews with this incredible philosopher Joseph Campbell about the power of myth and different cultures and how there's, we tell this Same stories in different cultures, whether the Aztecs or the Greeks, or you know the Norse gods, he found these incredible patterns of kind of the human journey he had passed away. Before I came on the project, he was quite elderly when Bill started interviewing him. So they were organizing the material. And my job was to find the visuals. So he mentioned the Aztec ballgame. I had to figure out what are we going to show where he mentioned, you know,

Alex Ferrari 5:25
Star Wars, the Wayne

Lynn Novick 5:26
and the, you know, the Holy Grail, we had to find stained glass that could show sort of he he covered such a wide range of topics. And I was in those days, sending snail mail letters to the far flung corners of the earth trying to get images to show.

Alex Ferrari 5:42
Right, and I'm assuming, how did you get the licensing? Well, I guess the licensing for Star Wars was pretty easy, because you could just start talking to George.

Lynn Novick 5:48
That's what Bill did. Exactly. So the Star Wars, right. So George Lucas was hugely influenced by these works, and this writer. And so that is how the project I believe, got started that Bill Moyers and George Lucas basically agreed that bill would do the interviews of Joseph Campbell, and they had them at Skywalker Ranch. And then George Lucas, let them use the footage, I believe for, you know, some nominal fee. So that that was the organizing principle. And I have to say, when we were working on it, I did not realize how popular it would be. I thought to myself, what did I know who's gonna want to listen to some old guy talk about the Aztec ball game and Hercules and whatever. And it was huge. It was huge. So it was really it was a wonderful experience to see that people really responded to it.

Alex Ferrari 6:31
Oh, no, absolutely. And I actually saw years later, Bill did an interview with George Lucas on the power of myth on just George Lucas's version of that. I remember watching as well, no, I was a huge fan of that. I mean, I've seen that power of myth thing. 1000 times. It's just so awesome. And any filmmaker, any favorite maker listening today should absolutely watch that. Because also the narrative structure that he talks about, is involved sometimes in documentary and documentary work as well. Just the the, because that's life. That's what the myth, hey, it's life in all our lives as the call to adventure, the refusal, I don't want to go take that new job in, in New York. You know, I live in Kansas, and I'm scared, but then I go and the adventures and the tricksters, and that's life. So it is really, really powerful. So I think why it's so popular.

Lynn Novick 7:21
I agree. And I was just very naive. And I just didn't appreciate the power of what Joseph Campbell had to say and how it touched that deep nerve. And people have tried to find meaning, trying to understand our human condition. And the moment we're in and how it resonates with what happened, people in the past, you know, had the same questions that we have. It was it was, I should go back and watch it again. Because I think it also does have some storytelling lessons for, you know, how to put the pieces together so that the story unfolds in the way that people can watch it.

Alex Ferrari 7:54
So I've always been fascinated, because when you can go down this road to make a just, just ridiculous 18 hours. I mean, they're, they're obscene. They're obscene. How long jazz? How long was jazz? jazz was like 10 hours, eight hours, I

Lynn Novick 8:09
think it was more like 20 because it was 10 parts. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 8:12
expect that going on. So how do you start a project like that? Like, how do you you're not just covering like Hemingway is a fairly large. We'll talk about your latest project in a minute. Hemingway is a man's life. I know you guys didn't, Mark. I'm sure if you did. I know Ken did Mark Twain. And you have Frank Frank Lloyd Wright's poster in the back. So those are specific people's lives. And that's pretty extensive. When you tackle a concept like baseball, or jazz, like the obscene amount of knowledge that you have to comb through? How do you start a project like that?

Lynn Novick 8:45
Yeah, I find the beginnings of project probably the most terrifying, because you don't at least for me, I usually don't know that much about it. So I have a huge amount to learn. And then to figure out well, how does this fit into something that could be on television, people would want to watch. And, you know, I have to say that one of the critical ways that we go about doing this is in collaboration with other people. So our writer, Jeff Ward, who Kent has worked with for longer than I've worked with Ken, he wrote the Civil War script and several other scripts before that. And he wrote baseball and jazz and all the other films Ken and I've made together so he dives into the deep end of the pool. Also, we order a lot of books, we start to read them, we start to take notes, we started to make outlines. And then we also figure out who is a smart people who are experts, in whatever subject, it happens to be, who are they and can they help us? So when the history of jazz it was when Marsalis you know, we went to see him early in the process and said, Will you help us? And he said, Yes. And then he said, here's the 10 people, you should talk to hear the 20 books you should read, and that lead to other people. So we build a kind of a team of people who really keep us on the straight and narrow in terms of what's important to include and what we don't have to include and you know how to understand that A picture that we're trying to tell. So in the start is hard.

Alex Ferrari 10:04
And I'm assuming though, as you're going through this process that, let's say you have a structured outline, and then all of a sudden you read a new book, or you hear something new from a new interview, and you're like, Oh, God, everything's got to be shifted. We got to insert this here. Now. Now, everything has been all. And I'm assuming that's a constant. It doesn't happen once in a project that happens constantly, because you discover new things in your archival or archaeology. archaeological dig, that you going through

Lynn Novick 10:29
Yes. And once the word goes out that we're working on something, people are always sending us stuff, which is so great. So the worst thing that can happen is after the film is done, and then that happening has every project Yes, of course. And it's just you sort of just feel I wish I knew about that two years ago, but what can you do? So you know, but we don't try to be the last word. So new materials always coming out about every subject. And someone else can take up the baton and continue telling that story in some other way. And you know, that's fine. With baseball, one of the challenges was there, you know, so much, there's more to now but there wasn't a lot of serious academic historical scholarship on the topic. Frankly, there were, you know, history of the Boston Red Sox, or biography of Babe Ruth, or you know, something about baseball, and the Black Sox scandal, but there wasn't really a big shelf of serious kind of academic historical work. So we really had to find historians who knew American history and happened to be baseball fans, and they could help us kind of get this in the context, because we weren't just doing a sports show, we really wanted it to be about the story of America through the lens of baseball,

Alex Ferrari 11:34
right in the watch national national parks one was, because I'm a huge national parks fan. And that's actually kind of my dream project as well, because you guys got to travel to every single

Lynn Novick 11:44
measure the water, I did work on that, but I, I know, an invitation to go to all those incredible places may have it

Alex Ferrari 11:51
must have been a rough job, like okay, we're gonna go to Yellowstone again, oh, we gotta, we gotta go to Yosemite again, you know, but those, that's another thing that you guys get to do. And sometimes, obviously, depending on the on the, on the topic, but you get to meet some of the most interesting human beings who've ever lived, you know, and, and you're talking to people who either know a lot about a subject or are part of the subject, like you said, a jet and jazz with Marcellus. He, he is like a living legend. So to talk to someone like that. I mean, that must be amazing as a documentarian to be able to talk to you talking to history, essentially,

Lynn Novick 12:28
yeah, that's one of the best parts of my job, I would say is the chance to meet and get to know people, really spend time with them and hear their stories. And, you know, you inevitably understand the history in a completely different way, once you've talked to someone who lived through it. So, I mean, I will never forget, we're working on a film on the Second World War. And some of the people we meet don't end up in the film for whatever variety of reasons. So we were trying to find some people who had been on D day and Omaha Beach, and I remember going to visit the veteran and his daughter had contacted us, and this happened a lot on that project where a family members would say you should talk to my dad or my uncle. So we would go to their home. And I remember going into this man's kitchen, and his daughter said, Dad, Dad, you know, Linda's here that they're making the document tree, they want to hear about your time in the war. And he was saying, okay, okay. And I said, so, you know, after chitchat, whatever, just not talking about the weather, then I sort of got to my point. So I understand you were on D day. And he said, Yes, I was in the engineers Battalion, which means I had to get out early to kind of take out the mines and blow up things that shouldn't be there and credibly dangerous job. Okay. So he said, so I'm sort of trying to understand what he's saying. And he said, I got out of the boat. And for me, D day, I always think, how do you get out of the boat? I mean, I would not be able to get out of the boat. But everyone's getting out. So you get out, even though you're getting fired on. He said, I got onto the beach, a shell came in and killed my best friend. And then he started to cry. And then he didn't talk anymore. So he he and he had to leave. I mean, he couldn't actually speak. understandable, right. And his daughter sort of said he never talks about this. And she had hoped that he would be able to but he actually was so traumatized. Even 60 years later, he couldn't speak about it. And even though we didn't put him in our film, because he he couldn't really participate in that way. Spending that morning with him helped me appreciate in a very visceral way. What we're asking people to do by reliving these really difficult moments and how hard that can be. And the gratitude and humility you have to have because you just, you know, the generosity of someone to even try to do that is is is sort of inspiring.

Alex Ferrari 14:48
Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to talk about jazz and talk about my good times playing baseball. Right another thing about like the Vietnam War, you did the Great War, World War Two and all these other like dark dark times in American history. That's what I love. What you can do is you really are historians of the American experiment. You know that you all I mean, is there any, it's all American based pretty much if I'm not mistaken, right? Is there anything world based? I don't?

Lynn Novick 15:20
Well, the Vietnam War is the first time for that in work that Ken and I have done together where we really tried to represent a story that was, you know, as Americans were interested in it, but the Vietnamese story wasn't as important to us, right. So we tried very hard and I, I made a number of trips to Vietnam with Sara Botstein, the producer, to get to know Vietnamese, people who had lived through the war and to hear their stories, and hear how they talk about it and what it means to them, which is very different than how we talked about it and what it means to us. So, yeah, so that's the first time we've really ventured to another country, another culture to that to gray so that the film hopefully really represented, you know, as best we could do, not just an American story,

Alex Ferrari 16:07
right? Exactly. Yeah. It wasn't a completely American point of view is like the oppressor and the pressy. kind of vibe, or that's not the proper word, but the

Lynn Novick 16:17
four antagonists or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, antagonists attack Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 16:21
So you got the point of view, because to us, to them, we're the bad guys to us. They were the bad guys. Like I always tell people, we're all everybody is the hero of their own story. Nobody goes to sleep twiddling their mustache going. Evil. No, everyone thinks that they're the good guy. If they're right,

Lynn Novick 16:40
which is, and you're right. And for Americans, the Vietnam War was the first time and if we really had to face as a culture, maybe we're not the good guys. Maybe we're not always good guys. And that was a reckoning, that we still haven't really sorted out.

Alex Ferrari 16:54
Because after World War Two, we're just like, you know, as you were, we're g we're super we're Superman. We're, you know, American Pie and baseball. And we saved the world. And that and we're still kind of on that high. In you know, that pr, pr is still running. But I think from the Desert Storm and all these other wars that we've gone into people's like, you know, maybe, maybe we're not always the best guys. We try. We try.

Lynn Novick 17:22
But like any human try,

Alex Ferrari 17:24
but the thing is, like any human being, we have different, you know, we can't be perfect.

Lynn Novick 17:30
Well, we're certainly not perfect. Yeah. I think if we're perfect, it would be so boring. It's exactly sitting here talking because there would be nothing to tell. So I think it's especially hard for Americans, though, to really examine our flaws and our failures. I do think culturally, like you said, We'd like to think of ourselves as the good guys, and that we're always on the right side of history, and that we, you know, stand for something that's good, and, you know, inspiring and noble. And it's a lot more complicated

Alex Ferrari 18:01
as a human being is like, you can't it like there's so many layers, like as they say, Shrek, like Shrek, you're like an onion, multiple layers, multiple layers. Now, the other thing I find fascinating about documentarian work is and I've worked on documentaries and post editing them, but nothing like a 90 minute, you know, documentary. So I have some very small experience doing that. But the durance that you need to have as a filmmaker, to sit like some of these projects not only takes years, I mean, some are like, Did you do anything to quit like a decade? Or am I exaggerating? Well,

Lynn Novick 18:41
the national parks, I think they really did work on for almost a decade. And that allowed them to visit all those parks and film them at different seasons and accumulate all that material. But but in fairness, it's not the only thing that they were working on. Right. So it's not your only project for 10 years. But you know, we might work on it a part of the time and work on something else that shorter term, and then come back to it depending on

Alex Ferrari 19:04
Yes, yeah. Cuz I'm assuming you guys don't just sit down and just do like, okay, we're just doing jazz for the next three years. You've got four or 568, different little, some like Hemingway over here and, and a jazz over here in the Vietnam War over here, Frank Lloyd Wright over here, and you're kind of like dabbling in a bunch. It kind of keeps you all busy and sane.

Lynn Novick 19:24
Yeah, well, I mean, Ken does work on I think he says he's working on eight or nine projects right now. Right. And they're all at different stages of production. So he can be in a room with one project. And, you know, the film is being let's say, they're shooting interviews for another project and developing a script for another project. So using different parts of his brain for different aspects of that, for me, I like to work on maybe no more than two or three projects at a time. So my brain can't handle it. So but that's enough. So, you know, today I'm working on one or two projects and tomorrow, but like eight or 10 I don't know how can does it honestly, it's amazing.

Alex Ferrari 19:57
It's exact, but even two or three is like you know, because as As narrative filmmakers, you generally are working on one. And that one could take two years. You might be writing maybe something else, but I've been on projects that's take two years, three years. And that's all you do all the time, it becomes kind of crazy, but the endurance is remarkable. Now I have to ask you, what do you think the job of a documentarian is, in your opinion?

Lynn Novick 20:23
Wow, you know, documentary and the time I've been working in this field, which is more than 30 years, it's really evolved. And, and even the genre such as it is, is so capacious, there's so many different kinds of documentaries and different approaches and different kind of philosophies. So, you know, it's almost hard to pin it down, because different people approach it with different expectations. So I like to think that it's a way of putting on the screen, it doesn't have to be the big screen, it could be a small stream, a true story, not based on a true story, or inspired by a true story, but an actually true story, something that really happened with real people. And that, then, you know, that's the number one for me, then is it going to be sort of a story of something that's happening right now, that would be sort of a, you know, present day story that you're following action as it happens? Or is it something that happened in the past, like what we have mostly done or though not exclusively, where you're excavating? A long ago story and trying to put the pieces together, like you were the jigsaw puzzle, of, you know, figuring out what happened. Hopefully, it has a beginning, middle, and end Aristotelian poetics of just, you know, a story that kind of makes sense, and the way that we think of narrative, which means you have to impose some kind of order. And some kind of, you know, right, you have to pick out the things that you think fit to get your beginning, middle, and end, you can have some detours along the way. But ultimately, for me, it's has to touch people, it has to have a human dimension and mean something to the people who watch it so that they are engaged in care about the story that people the information that is true, you know, and that you come away with some new perspective, or deeper understanding of some aspect of history, the human condition, what it means to be alive, you know, those kind of things,

Alex Ferrari 22:21
the because, you know, a human story, you know, history generally is not so neat, as have a middle, it's not constructed in the middle, a beginning, middle and end a human life. I mean, yes, does have a beginning, middle and end, but it could be very anti climatic, it could be very wide open, it could be multiple different things. So it's interesting how you, you are able to put together you have to put a structure, there has to be some sort of narrative story put into history, which is so much more complicated I feel than just writing what I know, I've seen in some of your other interviews that you're like, Oh, you just said it here. It's like, I can't do afresh come up with the story. I'm not that creative. But I'm gonna give you more credit than you're giving yourself is to construct a narrative out of history. Yes, sometimes it falls. But sometimes you just kind of really work it and understand the structure of story. So well, even more so than I think when you're creating it.

Lynn Novick 23:17
That may be I've never tried the scripting adventure. So that seems like it would be harder and easier for me that, you know, I came to understand this in a deeper way, when I was working on documentaries that I made over a number of years called college behind bars where we were filming not history, but life as it was happening. And it was filmed over four years, as we got to know people, Sarah Botstein, a producer, and I got to know people who were in prison who were enrolled in college, which is very unusual, because most people in prison don't have access to college of any kind. And they were in this incredibly rigorous and impressive program called the Bard prison initiative in upstate New York. So you know, we would come in and out of the facility multiple times a year with our cameras, sometimes without our cameras, other times, get to know people, or hopefully earn their trust over time, and follow them around through classes, into the yard into their selves, you know, meet their families, and kind of understand the beginning, middle and end was basically you're enrolling in the program. And hopefully, four years from now there'll be graduation. So luckily, school does have a beginning, middle and end, right. So we knew, we hope we begin with, you know, orientation and end with graduation. But along the way, we had 400 hours of material of all kinds of things, you know, that we didn't know how they would fit into our film or not, and you just be kept filming. And a lot of the times we wanted to call the company seat of the pants productions, because we just had I felt we had no idea what we were doing. But if we sort of showed up enough, maybe it would all make sense later. And working with our editor, Fisher Reedy and assistant editor chase Horton meet eventually managed to kind of wrestle these 400 hours into four one hours where you really get To know people and see how they evolve, and are transformed by the process of education, and overtime, get to know why they're in prison and their families. And some of them came out of prison while we were filming. But at the beginning, we had no idea. And we really did have to impose a structure on each scene. And each episode, and on the whole thing,

Alex Ferrari 25:20
there wasn't any structure. Right? And that's the thing that I feel that with, with the historical documentaries that you do you do those? They're safer in a sense, because, you know, you're discovering the archival, yes, you'll have surprises. And yes, you'll have things but it's not gonna hit you not gonna blindside you. Whereas if you're following real life, it's unfolding in front of you are on the edge, you really have no idea and you might start the documentary and the story in one way. And then all of a sudden, it just turns like, that wonderful document or Hoop Dreams back in the day. Oh, my God, like, how did that like, you know, just the like, Oh, my God like it. So something like that you really it's a completely different kind of documentary and different kind of filmmaker to go down that. How did that feel jumping from? From very safe, historical, very long, laborious, you know, process to? I'm on the edge? Like, you're like, Yeah, what's happening? How did that?

Lynn Novick 26:21
I mean, it's kind of exhilarating and terrifying, and exhilarating, in a sense of is exciting, because you don't know what's gonna happen. Right? And you sort of are open to whatever happens, we'll figure it out. But it's also certainly scary to think, wow, what if I mean, I had the feeling okay, we started this film. But what if the Department of Corrections which gave us incredible access, or the students, the people in the film decided they didn't want to do it anymore? Right, that could have happened, someone could have said, you know, what, actually, we're not doing this anymore, for whatever reason, that could have happened or, and things did happen. People got in trouble and was transferred to another facility and couldn't be in the program anymore, or something happened in their personal life or, you know, academic things, whatever. Just all kinds of things happen that you can't predict in life. But when you're trying to make a film, it can be very destabilizing. You just have to stay open to that. But you know, even with historical films, I mean, for the Vietnam War, it may seem like it made all sense when you see the final film, but at the beginning, we're not at all sure what the hell we're doing. Yeah. Because, first of all, I've never been to Vietnam, I don't speak Vietnamese, we have to go and want to go over there and meet people and figure out how to what questions to ask them, and who to talk to, and how we're going to do that. And we've never really thought about the Vietnam War, from the perspective of the Vietnamese get turns out, it's really complicated. So even just, and we wanted it to be from the ground up ordinary people telling their stories, but then we have to figure out well, we're not going to interview john mccain and john kerry and Henry Kissinger, we're going to talk to regular people with regular people. So it was you know, word of mouth and sort of going out into the world and trying to find people who fit certain criteria that we had of being in the anti war movement or being on a college campus or being you know, a soldier who then turned against the war, we had like different ideas of things, or someone who covered the war. But we didn't really know what that would be. It all makes if we do our job right at the end. It looks like it all fits in and makes sense. But it really doesn't at the beginning. And even at the middle of we're not too sure.

Alex Ferrari 28:31
Now with college behind bars, I wanted to wanted you to kind of express to the audience what it felt like because I was I was I had the privilege of doing location scouts for a film that I was going to direct and every prison in Florida, I went to every prison that would allow us to I was to shoot there if we wanted to shoot it. I got access to it. And I'd never been in, you know, in prison. I you know, I was a boy from Florida like, I mean, I I'm a good boy, I don't have never been in prison. So when you walk through those gates, and you feel the energy, and we were in empty areas, we weren't within you anywhere there was inmates, though, we did see like some of them were very low, low security, low security areas, so that you see them walking and stuff. But I never was in a place where there was like, you know, as as they said, the HBO show oz or something like that. I wasn't in that. But that feeling of that place, the energy the almost the ghosts, if you will, of that place. Did you feel that? And you were going into a place with live, you know, people and interacting with people. Can you express to people about how that goes and how you put that onto the screen with college behind bars?

Lynn Novick 29:48
Yeah, thank you for asking. You know, I do think it's important for all of us as citizens to try to have some proximity to the problem of criminal justice and incarceration. In our society, which is horrendous and appalling, and it's, it's not easy to get access, if you're not don't have a family member that's caught up in this, you know, it's far away from most of us, and it's behind walls. And so I had never had the experience of being inside of prison until I got invited with Sarah to give a lecture basically, in this college program, and that we went into that we went through the, you know, the double gate, and then the other double gate and then walking through the, you know, long hallway and kind of could see the yard over there, and then down another hallway and then update, you know, I remember every step of this way into past an officer into a classroom. You know, it's, it's an oppressive, dehumanizing, really just degrading and oppressive environment. And it's meant to be that way, nothing, there's by accident, it's all by design. It's very purposeful, and especially, probably do in Florida. But in New York State, the majority of prisoners are black and brown, the majority of the officers are white, the dynamics of how control is managed and security is done is I found extremely disturbing. Just, I did feel, you know, it's just I found it really, really upsetting and disturbing, to say the least. And yet. I also think it's easy for us if we have seen Oz, or locked up, or the other kind of Hollywood versions of incarceration, to have a very skewed perception of what is actually like, and one of the most profound things that one of the students that we've gotten to know really well said, is that suicide is a much bigger problem than homicide inside prisons. It's about despair, and loneliness, and isolation, and giving up hope, and a place where there is no hope. And people, you know, to compensate in different ways in that environment. And so we have this image of this violence and you know, awful things happening, but actually, it's most, a lot of it is really designed to make people isolated and lonely. And to not care.

Alex Ferrari 32:11
Yeah, I'll tell you the one of the officers, that was our tour guide, he actually is like, do you want to go on one of the cells and I went into one of the cells and they shut the door behind me. And that's sound, I'll never forget the sound, I'll never forget the sound because I'm like, I'm playing, I'm cosplaying this right. Now. This is right. This is not real for me. But I can, I can feel it. It is a feeling and you were like, it was visceral. And I was a young man, I was in my mid 20s at that time. And boy, was it powerful. And I agree with you. I think if any of you ever, everybody could just feel that. I think our opinions of that whole system, honestly, needs to be needs to be addressed in a very, very, very big way.

Lynn Novick 32:55
I agree. Well, that office experience that we had, you know, we did, we spent a fair amount of time inside people's house with them. And when you see the film, people who are the people that we got to know are college students, so their cells are full of books. So you're seeing American literature, art, history, philosophy, economics, algebra, Mandarin, you know, all the things they're studying, they're their selves are full of books, and they're doing serious academic work, while in this very inhumane space. So there's kind of like a cognitive dissonance about that. But also, it's extraordinarily inspiring to see that even in this dark place. They hold on to and many of them have talked about this just a sense of hope that there's something other than this place. And the way to move through it is to make sure you use your time the best you can and to, you know, open your mind in whatever way you can.

Alex Ferrari 33:47
Yeah, I would, I would, I would completely lose myself in in books, I would completely lose myself into that I would escape into that, because that just makes the most the most sense. The most sense without question. Now you were talking about 400 hours for this project? 400 hours, cut down to four hours? Uh huh. I mean, I've edited 25 years. So I understand the process. I've never had 400 hours of footage. So how do you be? I mean, I'm assuming it's a team. There's not one person?

Lynn Novick 34:23
Well, you know, in all honesty, because we're shooting digitally these days of cameras rolling, especially if we're in a prison where you just, you know, yeah, just keep rolling, because you never know. So there's a lot of that 400 hours, probably 50 hours, you don't even ever look at that just as just like, you're walking down the hall or whatever, and you're not really you know, but nonetheless, we filmed interviews, so we transcribe them only pick out the best, you know, moments from those. We filmed a lot of classes because it's a film about college. So in those an hour long class might be five minutes. That's really interesting. So we sort of like whittled down from the beginning, that what we'd say the highlights, and then we basically put them in a String out and watch it and our string out was like nine hours long. So then it was just that's not bad, though. 400 to nine, you know?

Alex Ferrari 35:08
Yeah. Right. And in the scope of the projects, you do nine hours, bad.

Lynn Novick 35:12
Yeah, well, we were planning to make a feature length Doc, though, at the beginning, we had nine hours to boil down to 90 minutes. And I realized that's not going to be possible and make what would be possible, of course, but we just decided to go back to PBS and saying, you know, what, this material is so rich, and they actually had said at the beginning, you know, you might end up with something bigger than the feature because this is a very profound and, you know, rich story to tell, and to get to know people and see what happens to them. So you know, we, it, I have, our editors do an enormous amount of the time spent looking at the material over and over and getting to know it really, really well, and picking out the things they think work best. And then we would react to that and kind of fine tune and home with them. And we also brought in the people who were in the film, if they had been released from prison, especially to see it and kind of help us to get back to my point about being authentic authenticity and being true. You know, they live this and we've got a version of it, that we captured with our cameras, right? But we didn't want to put something out that didn't feel authentic and true to them. Because you know, you have the camera on for a little while you turn it off, or you look over here, but something else happened that you didn't notice. And just there's a lot of subtleties to what gets into, you know, gets captured on film or whatever we capture things on nowadays. It's always

Alex Ferrari 36:39
it's it's hard because I need to Xerox like, it's just film film is gonna be film, I need to film it or I need to tape it. You know? It's just the way it is. I just heard I heard a newscaster the other day say like, Oh, yeah, we were taping this. I'm like, they were on it was on an iPhone. It was on an iPhone, come on. But it's just it's just it's part of the lexicon. Now, tell me about your new project Hemingway, which is a fascinating subject. He is such a larger than life figure in American history. In the literary world, he is a giant up there with Mark Twain and Shakespeare. I mean, he is our Shakespeare in many ways, a give or take. But he is a giant and has so much information or like, even I, I've read a bunch of Hemingway, you know, growing up and right, but and but the myth of who Hemingway is, is larger than life. It's as art like I don't know much about Stephen King's personal life, though he is a giant in the literary world as well. Different than Hemingway. But, you know, other than a few things he's not there's not a myth about him. No, there is a myth about Hemingway, how did you go to tackle this subject matter?

Lynn Novick 37:56
Yeah, well, you you you really hit the nail on the head there because Hemingway is unusual in the sense that he, the myth is sometimes bigger than him. And I think many people that we talked to said it kind of gets in the way of actually seeing him. But he's so famous because of this myth. His work is extraordinary, as he said, but it's the myth that people know. And he created that that didn't just happen to him. He was the reason why there's a myth. He very consciously created this persona, and then kind of fed the flames of that throughout his life in very conscious and sort of

purposeful ways. Was he branding? Yes, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 38:39
He was branding himself. He was he was, he was an influencer before they were influencers.

Lynn Novick 38:44
Exactly. He understood all of that in a way that I think a lot of writers don't, or wouldn't want to more than like a movie star, or a rock star, you know, he had a sense of his brand. From a young age. It's fascinating, really. And that's a story in and of itself.

Alex Ferrari 38:59
Before there was ever a concept of a brand, like a human being being a brand. Like, you know, Marilyn Monroe became a brand but Maryland did not know about it when you know, those big movie stars of the day did not think about that. But you're right, we're using rock star movie star, he essentially is the rock star or movie star of the literary world.

Lynn Novick 39:19
Yeah, I agree. And that's not necessarily the best thing for a writer, just to say, you know, he's not playing arenas, you know, anything like it on the big screen, right? So he's writing in his room on his typewriter. So but what he was famous for was kind of these escapades, you know, hunting and fishing and you have, there's, I can't tell you how many pictures that are of him posed with the enormous fish he caught or the animal that he shot, you know, or in kind of like pretending to be boxing, you know, all these really macho sort of what we would now call hyper masculine poses. And even in his own lifetime, it got a little tired, and there was criticism of it. You know, Even then he was he was at the extreme of this masculine persona. And he also kind of knew that, but I think he was trapped by it at a certain point. And it's true. He did enjoy the things that he was famous for doing. But having to perform the role of being Hemingway must have been sauce very tiring. Yeah, exhausting. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Yeah, cuz once you build a myth like that, you've got to live up to it.

Lynn Novick 40:27
Right? And it's

Alex Ferrari 40:28
a beast that you can't control. And that's the thing about brands and about your career, your legend or your myth that you create. It goes off and you can't, if you build to a point, it becomes its own monster. And I think I think the myth is the monster that ate Hemingway. Unfortunately, unfortunately, at the end, it was too much for him. Yeah,

Lynn Novick 40:50
I mean, it is it's a tragic story back to our hero's journey from Joseph Campbell there, you know, it's, there's hubris, and there's just tragedy that happens to him and some things he's responsible for, and some things he isn't. There's a family history of mental illness. And so, you know, you're born with that that's a something you can't control and the time when he was alive, certainly true now, but even more so then there's such stigma around mental illness, depression, anxiety, no one talked about that. They would say, somebody went for a rescue here, or they're just taking a break or something, you know, you would rather I don't know. I mean, the shame of going to a mental hospital. You know, he didn't want that. And he was suffering from very serious psychotic depression, among other things at the time that he should have gone to a mental hospital.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
Did he write any of his works? While really going through some episodes?

Lynn Novick 41:50
Yes, I I'm, I'm not sure I can line up everything chronologically. Exactly. But he also suffered from alcoholism, chronic alcoholism, which no one does affect your power to

Alex Ferrari 42:06
mission, mythical alcoholism. I mean, yes,

Lynn Novick 42:09
he glorified drinking, right. So but then he, you know it that got the better of him. And then also, he suffered from a number of serious concussions, head injuries, over the course of his life, probably eight or nine very serious concussions, which now we know that does really serious damage to your brain and your capacity to think and function and your moods and can cause depression and paranoia and all the horrible things we've seen happening with people who have suffered from traumatic brain injury and CTE. He had no idea about that. So he, you know, one of the psychiatrists who studied his trajectory suggests that he had a kind of a dementia, which is not like you don't know your name, but you there's a kind of confusion and lack of capacity to really do organize thinking. And he really struggled with writing. The last 10 years of his life, he had a lot of projects, he couldn't finish any of them. He couldn't figure out how to edit himself. He was just sort of overwhelmed with a lot of ideas, but nothing really jelling. And he did manage to write the old man to see in the middle of all of that, by some miracle, they had a few months of clarity. But before and after that he was really a mess.

Alex Ferrari 43:24
It's it's fascinating. What was the one thing that you discovered by Hemingway that you did not know when you started this project? that surprised you?

Lynn Novick 43:36
Well, I mean, a lot of things surprised me because I was not an expert when we started the project. So it's hard to say the one thing but one of the more fascinating themes that emerged in the course of making the film was an eye maybe I kind of vaguely had heard this, but I don't think I really understood it, that he for this hyper masculine guy, who played the part of the man who was the man's man, right, who was always strong and tough and didn't betray weakness, and, you know, courageous and morally right, and all these things that he, you know, held such high esteem. He was vulnerable. He was anxious, he was empathetic, he was concerned about how male behavior affected women. So he writes about that really beautifully in ways that I don't, I didn't fully understand. And that, you know, we have this phrase now toxic masculinity, which I didn't have that in my vocabulary 10 years ago, but I understand what it is now. Hemingway could be the embodiment of that in his personal life, in his relationships with his wives and other women in his life, but in his work at times, and not always, he critiques that, so he writes a story called hills like white elephants, where it's a man and woman at a train station. This is written in the 1920s. So it was quite, you know, I don't know, risky thing for him to do. But it was unusual in that it was about an abortion. man wants a woman to have an abortion. Now, she doesn't want to, they never say the word abortion, he just keeps saying to her, it's just a simple operation. They just let the air in, and then you'll be fine. We'll be just like we were before. I promise. It's just a little operation. And she's not sure. And he keeps at her and at her at her. And when you read the story, you're not thinking, Well, what a great, strong, tough guy this is, you're thinking this guy's a jerk. I don't care if you're a man or woman reading that story, your sympathy, and you're the hero where the moral center of the story is the woman. At one point, she just says, Tim, will you please, please, please, please, please, please stop talking. And, you know, the Hemingway the myth of Hemingway should be capable of right having the sensitivity to write that story in the way

Alex Ferrari 45:58
that he does. And that's that's the beautiful duality with Hemingway is that he portrays this complete macho man drink until you're you fall over, then get up and smoke a cigar and write a masterpiece, you know, while while you're in the keys are in Cuba, and then you're hanging out with Fidel and all this, like all of that, that's the myth. But if once I did, I've seen parts of not all of them, because again, it's six hours, and I have children. But the parts that I have seen that he when he was younger, was dressed as a girl, and his sister was dressed as a boy. And above that, through the through his life, he actually had his wives cut their hair short. And they would this gender kind of thing that they he would like he would play with. there's a there's a sensitivity behind all of all of that macho pneus. And I found that to be true with. I've mean, I've spoken to many, many people in my life. And I've met many, many interesting human beings in the entertainment industry, the more macho, big they are, generally, the more insecure, the more scared, the more they lash out, because they they want to show any, and they can't show any weakness, because of something that happened in their childhood or something like that. It seems very similar to with Hemingway, he put this, this shield up, I think it was almost a protective thing for him, because he didn't want anybody to know who he really was. But it would slip through in his writing, he couldn't hold it back there. So that's really, he's such an interesting character.

Lynn Novick 47:34
I agree completely. And you know, that, that what you just described is something I was sort of focused on, we started the project on this kind of obnoxious mess, and some beautiful writing that I loved. And I didn't understand the complexities of what you just described, until I've gone all the way through the whole life. And, you know, late in his life, he he started to write more explicitly about his interest in gender fluidity and in gender role playing and in a kind of vulnerability in his intimate life. He never published that during his lifetime, but his family has allowed some of this material to be published, especially in the novel called the Garden of Eden, which is not my favorite in terms of Hemingway, great work. But in terms of understanding Hemingway, the man, it's really fascinating. You see a man, his wife is sort of transitioning to male, I would say in the story, and they bring in another woman into the relationship. So there's a polyamory component to this, the husband becomes kind of the female in bed with her, the wife who's more of the becoming more of the husband, and then this other woman, and it's very interesting and relatable to us today, in a way that in his lifetime, I think, you know, what, if he couldn't publish it, let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 48:48
Right. I mean, it be interesting to see how, because and there's that whole concept now kancil culture, and you know, like, you know, oh, you can't say that you can't do this. You can't do that. There's a lot of stuff in Hemingway, that is arguably like, when's that? When's that shoe gonna drop? And he second now, when is it? When is someone going to go? Well, we can't we got to pull out these books that I mean, Hemingway's, which, what do you think? I don't want to talk about canceled culture in general, but specifically with Hemingway? Why do you think that he kind of transcends that? Because there's nothing like if they're, if they're knocking out, you know, the Swedish chef, and, and Dr. Seuss, I mean, anyways, a much easier target than Dr. Seuss. So what do you Yeah, makes his work kind of almost impenetrable to that kind of, you know, what makes him stand away from that?

Lynn Novick 49:43
Yeah, you know, we'll see how it all plays out.

Alex Ferrari 49:46
We're still early.

Lynn Novick 49:49
And I'm glad we're having a conversation as a society about you know, reevaluating these icons of the past and looking at them honestly for who they really were and what they really said. And what They say about us good and bad. And I think that's healthy. And I'm not big on the Pantheon, where you can only have so many people up on Mount Rushmore, or you know, it can only be four writers and you have to pick, I think we have room for a lot of people to be read and discussed and to whose voices matter. And it certainly shouldn't just be Hemingway by any means. But taking him out of the equation is a mistake, too, because he helps us understand some of the problems and challenges in his limitations, as well as his strengths, raises incredibly offensive words, hurtful words, he, there's anti semitism in his work that I personally find deeply offensive. But it doesn't mean that I don't want to read this on all survivors, it means that when I do read this, I'm also rises, I'm going to be thinking about anti semitism in our culture, and why does it exist? Does it still exist? Why would you know, what does it say about the people who read this book then? and loved it? You know, it's in other words, it's part of our history that we have to face, like it or not. And there's also potentially a critique of those things in there, too, if you want to look at it that way.

Alex Ferrari 51:10
I mean, look, you know, look at Mark Twain. I mean, you look you read Huck Finn. I mean, he's saying some stuff. That's probably not the most PC stuff in the world nowadays to listen, but I always find it, especially in history, and you're much more more of a historian than I am. But from my, my, my limited perspective is in history. It is a product of its time, and has to be looked through those that lens. If it's being brought into today's world, there's a conversation to go, you know, what, what they said, there isn't appropriate from our point of view, they're just like, and I promise you and everyone listening in 100 years, they're going to be looking at stuff that we're doing and going Yeah, well, we really the social media thing, not really the best idea, you know, you know, polluting the entire planet and killing ourselves. So not denying the global warming, not the smartest thing. So we're going to be judged as well. So

Lynn Novick 52:04
I think we should be and we should be right. Yeah, look, I mean, just because you brought him up Shakespeare, there's racism, there's anti semitism, there's misogyny, you know, and we don't just say, well, we're not going to read Shakespeare or we aren't going to ignore those things. We're going to have that conversation. You know,

Alex Ferrari 52:21
it's as a teaching tool, I feel it's a teaching more than anything. With my daughter's with my daughters, as I'm watching things sometimes now, you know, things that I grew up mechanical things I grew up with. I mean, I'm stuffed suffice on TV, some episodes of Tom and Jerry, some Looney Tunes episodes, which are straight up just racist, completely racist. And we didn't think twice about it. And then my daughters will watch something. And they'll point out what is that? And then there's a conversation to be had about it. It's a teaching tool at this point in the game, but you can't sanitize it. Because,

Lynn Novick 52:57
right when,

Alex Ferrari 52:58
let's say a child is sanitized from all of that. And when they hit that, imagine getting hit with racism for the first time at 30. Yeah, you can't. It's a difficult, like the concept of racism, like you've

Lynn Novick 53:10
been so sheltered. Now. It's out there, right?

Alex Ferrari 53:13
You shouldn't really

Lynn Novick 53:14
Yeah, I do think with children's literature and children's books and children's media, it's maybe a little bit different criteria, right. And for adults, because we have the tools hopefully to kind of have that critique in conversation. We're working on a film, Ken and Sarah Botstein and I about America's response to the Holocaust. Right? So we're, and we're trying to understand anti semitism as a factor of life in Germany, and we came across a book that the Nazis put out a picture book, about the horrible Jews and how they are, you know, subhuman. And, you know, we'll destroy you and put you in the beautiful illustrations, incredible, you know, with a devil. And I mean, if you were a kid reading that you would just, it's captivating. So I kind of think, well, maybe for children's literature, we have to have different criteria, because children don't have the framework

Alex Ferrari 54:06
or the tools

Lynn Novick 54:07
to read that. Right. Exactly. So I understand the impulse to remove some Dr. Seuss books, because, and that was done by the estate, when they decided they didn't want these books out there anymore. You know, the cat in the hat is still great.

Alex Ferrari 54:21
Look at the cat hat is still great. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, we're living in very interesting times, and I'm as a documentarian, I'm assuming you're looking around going, Jesus, I'm just pulled there's so much I want to say right now, there's so many different projects I want to do. But out of all the projects you've done, which is the most difficult which is the one that was the longest, just even if it wasn't timewise just difficult to get through because you've tackled some tough subject matter.

Lynn Novick 54:48
I you know, I think, truly the Vietnam War series and the college behind bars which we were working on, more or less at the same time, both were dealing with enormous trauma traumatic extreme. variances and tragedy. And cause behind bars was also an uplifting story of transformation. But there's tragedy and devastating human experience within it. So and the Vietnam War is just an unending tragedy. So spending the time to get to know people who are still carrying that loss and grief, unprocessed, and anger and rage and disillusionment, especially with our country. As we said before, sort of, you know, we weren't always the good guys, and our leaders lied to us and let us down and told us we were there for one reason, or other reasons, or the reasons kept changing, or said, we were winning when we weren't or minimize casualties on all sides, just the kind of the betrayal, I would say, of the American government, of the people by the government, and the Vietnamese government. Not a whole lot better, by the way. So you just have epic tragedy on all sides, kind of sitting with that, for all those years was

Alex Ferrari 56:02
difficult to to me day in, day out. I've been emotionally spiritually it must been rough.

Lynn Novick 56:09
Yeah. and spending time with the people who were still carrying that weight. And then, you know, watching the film, as it evolved with some of the veterans that we got to know and some of the people who protested the war and still felt very raw about it. It was it was really painful, I think. So that that experience that sits with me, and there are some days both on both of those projects of, especially filming interviews with people who shared extremely difficult stories and really open themselves up in ways that I have never experienced before. was just a profound experience that I will never forget.

Alex Ferrari 56:51
Now, I have to ask you, I because I'm not I just need to know your opinion. What do you feel about the rise of the docu series? Oh, of Tiger, King of those kind of, you know, that's why I want I know you cringe right there for people that watching she cringed. I want to know what a true documentarian who's, you know, considered a very serious award winning someone who's deadly serious about what you do. For debt. You know, for decades now, there is a rise of docu series, and some are really good. Some are, you know, Tiger King is just what it is. I'm not specifically asking you to comment on specific ones unless you'd like to, but just in general, the whole rise of docu series, because there are some docu series that are fascinating to watch.

Lynn Novick 57:38
Absolutely, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 57:40
We just, which is the one that we just want. My wife was watching the one on the Menendez brothers, and now that there's a whole movement to free them Menendez brothers, and I'm like, are you like, there's a bunch of millennials? Oh, like freedom. They were like, What is going on? And watch that whole series? My wife and I were just like, are we free Brittany? Like that, you know, that whole thing? That was a fascinating document. She's just sitting there going again, and please. Well, you can do

Lynn Novick 58:07
it. I'm just curious, oh, wait into this. I don't I you know, I look. Sometimes I feel there's a very fine line between telling someone's story and exploiting them and sensationalizing them and actually using them. And, you know, and sort of having the it's really a reality TV kind of ethos in the documentary, space clothing or whatever, right? And so the people are kind of performing, you know, outsize version of themselves like Hemingway did. Right. But you know, they're not there. They're, yeah, they're on camera. So but, you know, how much are they able to really have agency and that maybe a lot? You know, there's it's just it gets very complicated, I think in terms of what is a documentary and what is kind of a performance. Now, everybody, when there's a camera on them, including me, right now, we all perform to some degree, we're, you know, if I were just talking to you on the street, it would be a different conversation. We all know that. But if you are being filmed, and you're sort of the more you act outrageous, and the more you just play it up, the more you're going to be on screen, then you know, that's what happens. So everybody gets it, and everyone is part of that. So some So anyway, I think some of the some of it is in that mode, right? And Tiger King I would say I didn't watch the whole thing I heard it was great. It was beginning of the pandemic entertaining, entertaining as heck back great. It totally entertaining. But after a while, I just thought, where's this all going? I don't know if I really care in the end. So

Alex Ferrari 59:47
it was it was it was a I think the timing of that release. It was the beginning of the pandemic. That's why I was at home. And everybody was like, What is this? I saw it come across my screen. I was like, what I saw my wife I was like, why are you watching this? And I'm like, because I it's the pandemic and there's nothing I gotta watch this. And it was a UK it was it was but it was a train wreck. It was a train wreck and you were watching the train wreck and that is very reality show style stuff. Whereas in you know Oscar winning documentaries like searching for sugar man, or, or the wire? Is it the wire or the Yeah, the

Lynn Novick 1:00:22
wire is actually not a documentary. A great TV. No,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:26
no, the one about the guy who, who won the Oscar. Yeah, man, a man or a white man on what? You watch those kinds of stories and you're just like, Oh, my God, that's like amazing storytelling.

Lynn Novick 1:00:38
I, you know, I look, I mean, I think a docu series is wonderful, because it's like reading a novel or having an extended podcast where you really dive in and get to know people and a story from multiple perspectives and over time. So if you listen to cereal for eight hours, you get really sucked into Who are these people. And there's different ways to think about this. And, you know, if it's artfully done, it's totally captivating. And I'm really thrilled that these that there's a huge audience for this kind of storytelling and these kind of stories to be told. I just when it gets into the sort of sensational, almost exploitation, exploitative realm. I get uncomfortable. So like making a murderer, right. That was fascinating. Right? You know, that was landmark docu series. I'm not sure in the end, that they fully gave you all the information you needed. They sort of shielded certain parts of the story from the audience. I think that is problematic. I loved oj Made in America. I thought that was one of the greatest amazing share brilliance. Yeah, absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:43
But there's, but I think at the end, that opens the appetite for other documentaries. And I think that's a good thing. You know, so Tiger King probably brought in a generation or a bunch of audience to the concept of a docu series. And now there'll be more interested in might be watching, you know, one of your projects or college behind bars or something along those lines, because they associated the docu series. I could jump into them. It just yeah, I think it helps everybody. It does help everyone, even though some of it might be more exploitive. It does open up hopefully the audience to other great documentaries.

Lynn Novick 1:02:15
I agree. And to get back to what you said at the beginning. It's about real people. You know, so there's something absolutely fascinating about this is not an actor, right? So person doing their thing, whatever it is. This is not somebody wearing a costume,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:30
right? Or superheroes outfit or a giant lizard or giant girls. But yeah,

Lynn Novick 1:02:36
there's something is absolutely fascinating for us as human beings to be eavesdrop on somebody else's life.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:42
What's the voyeuristic is that voyeuristic thing that you know why voyeurism is such a powerful thing. I mean, Hitchcock knew that extremely well.

Lynn Novick 1:02:50
I know, I was thinking

Alex Ferrari 1:02:52
extremely well. We're all fascinated, like, Who's What? What's going on behind that closed door out there? What's going on? And that's what documentaries do. They peek you through the door like yours. Like in Hemingway, you're seeing things that were not made public, you know, and you're seeing things behind the scenes that are really, you know, almost voyeuristic in a way. I had one other question for you in regards to because the kind of the kind of documentary you are is you tell the story. You tell the truth. You put it all out there. But there are documentarians and filmmakers who put themselves in the story. They're the guy they're the narrator. The supersize me the Michael Moore, the michael moore's very famously, who put themselves in the documentary, how do you what do you feel about those kind of stories? And that kind of, I mean, just not specifically just filmmakers, but just, it's a different kind of documentary?

Lynn Novick 1:03:41
Yeah, it's wonderful. I mean, I think in a way, it's very honest, because then you know, who's telling you this story? Here's the guy or the woman whose story this is there's no kind of objective, anonymous, invisible force of story, God, whatever. It's, here's the person who's you know, Michael Moore is going to walk you around and tell you what it is. And I think if it works, it can be really powerful. I actually admire filmmakers for being brave enough to put themselves in. And, you know, be in front of the camera. I hate to do that. My partner is a psychiatrist. His name is Ken Rosenberg, and he's also a documentary filmmaker. And he when I first met him, which was five years ago, he said, I'm working on a film. And it's about serious mental illness in America. And he, he filmed at the LA, the emergency room in LA for a number of years, and people who were in psychotic states, and then followed them over time. And as he was working on the film, he realized he needed to put himself in it, which is why so he ended up basically narrating it and being on camera, talking about his own story of his sister's descent into schizophrenia and how she died and how he'd been carrying this burden as a doctor who couldn't help his own sister and how many families suffered so and he very consciously chose to use himself and his story. To kind of ground the film, and so then, you know, well who's telling me this story? And why should I care. And it was, you know, he didn't start out wanting to do that. But it was a really powerful device was also helpful for him to exercise his own demons and tell the story. The film is called Bedlam. And he got to DuPont last year. I'm very proud of him. It's Yeah, so but it was a really good example of the power of the on camera filmmaker, being inside the story and helping you guide you through it, and also being really transparent about why this story is even being told in the first place. So it can really work well.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:34
Yeah, it's a way to connect the audience to the subject matter sometimes, because something's like jazz or baseball, you don't need someone walking you through it. It's not a weird, it'd be weird. Like, Hey, hi, how you doing? I'm Alex. And we're gonna back in the day like that's just like, it seems very kind of kitschy, and it doesn't really like something you would see on Sunday at like three o'clock on. Unlike you're not even local public access, it would just be like, it's a weird thing. But certain topics like supersize me was all about him going through the process. He's the subject, you know, which was, I mean, I mean, he literally changed McDonald's. I know. Like, it was remarkable, that whole world. And I have a couple questions I want to I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a documentarian wanting to break into the film business and into the business of making documentaries today?

Lynn Novick 1:06:29
I'm of two minds.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:31
Let's explore less explicit. Yeah.

Lynn Novick 1:06:34
You know, I think, you know, be sure you're passionate about the story you want to tell? And why you want to tell it and really drill down on that, why you care about it, and what you can say that hasn't been said. And then most important, how will that affect the people who you're going to be filming? which is sort of back to our Tiger King point? You know, is this going to be something that will, your subjects will be okay with when it's over. And I'm not talking about expos day of, you know, corporate malfeasance. If you want to make a documentary about Purdue pharma and the sacklers. Go for it. They deserve whatever bad things can happen to them as far

Alex Ferrari 1:07:13
as I'm concerned.

Lynn Novick 1:07:14
Right. But if you're talking about ordinary people, and you're gonna write so but if you're gonna film just your neighbor, and their relationship with their dog, or something like the truffle hunters, let's say, you saw that right? So is this, why are you doing it? And what are you trying to say? And is it honorable to our larger point, but if you're passionate, and you have a story that you think needs to be told, then you should go for it.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:39
And it's so affordable to do it nowadays? I mean, the cameras are expensive. It's super inexpensive and made before you had to get the film camera and the dad and all that stuff. I'm assuming you guys shot some film back. Yeah. And cut it on flatbed. And

Lynn Novick 1:07:54
the four guys who repaired the scene bags went out of business about 20 years ago. But yes, yes. infrastructure of that world. So, you know, yeah, I think the mode of production is much cheaper and more available and more democratized. You can film it on your iPhone, you can cut it on your laptop, you can put it out on YouTube, you know, so the barrier to entry is zero. So it's more just, is the story worth telling? Is it really important? Is it gonna be worth your spending X amount of time of your life to tell this story?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:22
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? Oh, wow.

Lynn Novick 1:08:31
That's such a profound question. Not sure I can answer it. A few things come to mind. The longest to learn. I've learned a lot of lessons. So I, you know, pop this, I don't know if that took me the longest to learn. But it's something I hold on to is how important it is to just be present. And especially now, it's so hard because we're so distracted. I haven't looked at my phone the entire time we've been talking. And that's maybe a record, you know. So, to really, but that's, you know, I'm here with you. I'm not doing anything else. And that's great. We've had a great conversation. And I think we lose that so easily. Just, you know, yeah. How often have I been doing something and I get distracted, and then I'm lost. And then I don't come back to where I was. And so trying staying focused and being present. And just letting things happen because you are present is really, really important. And I think it's it takes a lot of discipline to do that. Especially now it's really really hard.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:35
And three of your favorite films or documentaries of all time.

Lynn Novick 1:09:40
Oh, wow. Okay, well films of all time. I don't have the Godfather way up there on high on the list. Yes. Which, you know, I don't know that's a desert island movie. I could watch it over and over again. So there's there's a few others. I've just documentaries. There's so many I don't know. That's really hard to say. Wish I was prepared for that I have a list.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:02
What comes to what comes to the top of your head?

Lynn Novick 1:10:05
Well, interestingly, under Francis Ford Coppola sort of genre the hearts of darkness. As such, it writes

Alex Ferrari 1:10:12
Eleanor Eleanor Coppola hits Wow. Oh my god, what

Lynn Novick 1:10:17
an amazing documentary amazing documentary. It's about the making of Apocalypse. Now, for anyone who doesn't know an apocalypse now, it's kind of a flawed film, but has moments of brilliance in it. And her telling him how challenging that was. I wasn't a filmmaker when I saw it. But it really stuck with me, eyes on the prize, which was a series on PBS in the 80s, about the civil rights movement, had a huge profound impression on me because it was first time I'd seen that kind of storytelling, just regular people who were witnesses and participants in history, telling their stories. It's such an important historic experiences of our country that I had read about in books, but I did not understand and seeing eyes on the prize brought that epic time in our history, vividly to life and just indelible ways. So that's way up there on the list for me,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:07
well, Lim, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you all things documentary, and I tell everybody out there to please go watch Hemingway and all of your films, honestly. I mean, if you if you've got like a year or two to put away cuz it's gonna take you a minute to watch it. How many hours have you like, I read somewhere, like 80 hours or something like

Lynn Novick 1:11:29
that, if you like that, but it's been 30 years.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:31
Right? So I mean, it's not like you just did that last week. I mean, it is, but but Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for doing what you do and fighting the good fight as a documentarian and telling the truth out there and helping get a little bit bit of clarity on your subject matter. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Lynn Novick 1:11:48
Thank you, Alex. It was a great conversation.

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show?
Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 387: How to Protect Your Film from Online Piracy with Evan Zeisel

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. AudibleGet a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Alex Ferrari 0:09
I'd like to welcome the show Evan Zeisel, man, how you doing?

Evan Zeisel 0:14
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thanks for coming on the show man. We're going to talk about piracy and copyright infringement and all sorts of sexy beautiful, cool stuff that filmmakers love to talk about. but

Evan Zeisel 0:29
Johnny Depp being on the internet pretty much right exactly,

Alex Ferrari 0:33
exactly. It's a really I mean, it's it's it's one step above financial breakdowns for for feature films, no, but it's so much fun. But the bottom line is it is something that's affecting so many filmmakers not just the Avengers and Game of Thrones, but also

Evan Zeisel 0:53
a lot of money and cant afford

Alex Ferrari 0:55
can't afford to right exactly but then the Indies like myself like I had my my film pirated I think 11 hours after it got put up on on online that was already on the pirated board. It was like that's

that's pretty fast. I mind just took under a week.

Yeah. mine was 11 hours I counted. I was like, holy cow. So I did a whole episode. I'm like, this is what happened to my film and,

Evan Zeisel 1:20
and there are fake ones too. They're amazing. They're fake ones that pop up on films that are in festivals that are just up on IMDB, and they pull from IMDb, the the name and the description and everything they and then they say, you know, click to watch. And then you have to get all description to watch. But it's all about, it's all about the traffic for them. It's about the actual watching of the film, they just want either the ads or the person to show up to the site so they can add malware to their system and then you know, sell that or they've got these weird click through things. I mean, it's so many will get they make their money. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:58
yeah, I want to get into the the whole piracy business as well. But first of all, how did you a mild mannered filmmaker? You know, the Clark Kent a filmmaker? So how did you get into the copyright? You know, piracy game, like how to protect filmmakers from copyright piracy?

Evan Zeisel 2:15
I feel like, I feel like we all as filmmakers start off as I would say, instead of Clark Campbell, go young Bruce Wayne. Even better, even better. And then somebody comes in and murders our parents in front of us. And then guess what Batman shows up. And then Batman is never gonna leave. And Batman gets angry and Batman tracks people down. But yeah, I sort of the story of every indie filmmaker, I did my first feature film about 10 years ago now. And we, you know, my two festivals, got a distributor. And then within a week of going online, I think we started on back in the day when Apple TV was the big thing. We started on Apple TV, but then went to all the other ones. But yeah, within a week of being on our first subscription video on demand, or add whatever, I guess it is a VOD site. I we started popping up on all these piracy sites, and they had to film in with modern technology. You know, people just record though somebody rented it once and then recorded the whole thing. So it's pristine quality. And instead of people going to our site, or even when it's on amazon prime, it's free to watch. So but we get money when people watch it. But when they go to other sites, it's there. And so I was like, Well, I'm gonna stop this. So I did my research and sort of the positives and negatives of the copyright world, especially online. Because it all goes through this. This law, this US law called the DMCA, which stands for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which was enacted in 1998. To give you a reference for how old it is. Back Back when people were on. AOL, AOL. Sure,

Alex Ferrari 4:02
right. compuserve sir, compuserve, sir,

Evan Zeisel 4:05
yes, exactly. So, you know, as created then, and it's got this sort of double sided blade. So on one side, it is meant to protect copyright holders from their works being stolen. On the other side, it is meant to respect the First Amendment and to protect people who don't realize what they're doing. Unfortunately, that opens up the door for people to essentially run amok. And what the what the DMCA says is, if you put somebody's copyrighted items online, and you don't know it's copyrighted, and it is not illegal, until the copyright holder contacts you and says, hey, that's mine. That's illegal. If you use it for commercial purposes, then they can say you know, okay, you've, you've used it to so now you owe me for that benefit. But Until you're contacted by the copyright holder, it is not illegal. And so what happens is these piracy sites, put them online, and then you as the copyright holder, have to track them down, and then figure out how to contact them, and then send a very specifically worded document that matches what it says in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to them. And then when they receive it, they have to quote, the DMCA, a reasonable amount of time, which the court has deemed, I think, between 48 and 72 hours to comply. And if they don't take it down, then they are in violation of law. But essentially, when I was seeing I spending, I don't know two hours a day finding sites, looking and finding the contact info filling out this form, emailing it to them. And then, you know, usually they take it down because they don't care about my film, they just care about people coming. And we got to, but I was doing two hours a day, and I burned out. I mean, as you know, as indie filmmakers are not, we don't have the Warner Brothers army of attorneys, we don't, we're often small, if not individual, kind of productions. And it's just overwhelming. And I think that's one of the things that sort of the pirates bank on. And so I with no coding knowledge, contacted a college friend of mine who's in it, and I was like, Hey, I got this idea. Let's Let's help indie filmmakers, like fight this thing that screws them. It's mainly focused on these, you know, the Avengers, the the big budget films that make all their money in the theaters, or make them on, you know, their HBO, Max's or whatever, and it doesn't hurt their bottom line. But, you know, I remember calculating at one point, if I got a 99 cents, actually, I think I calculated if I got like, 50 cents for every view, I would have made back the entire budget easily in the first year, if and, and had excess. But, you know, you go to these sites and people like, Oh, I don't want to pay, and they just and they watch, and they've got more and more advanced. So they look like a Netflix, they look like a professional site until you sort of delve into them. But the normal user isn't going to delve into them. They go Oh, this looks awesome. I can watch this for free. And so yeah, so we so my friend and I, we created copyrights lab comm that essentially, automates the process, so that it's so much faster to do so that we can send you know, hundreds of these takedowns in seconds. So that producers don't get overwhelmed.

Alex Ferrari 7:45
So, okay, so the when you're when you're doing copyright infringement, so like, there's that we're it's a gray area, and it seems like the the the pressure is on the copyright holder, not the pirate or the person who just doesn't know any better yet, because

Evan Zeisel 8:04
there's there's people who upload to YouTube, you know, the Avengers, the entire movie, because well, yeah, and will you run into? And so one of the things that balances out is this idea of fair use versus copyright infringement, which I was looking for. Yeah, yeah. And so fair use is if you use a piece of copyrighted material, but it's either I believe, transformative, or it's used for commentary. Yeah, or for kind of reporting.

Alex Ferrari 8:37
Reporting I think edge is educational even in there.

Evan Zeisel 8:40
Yeah, I think educational I think educational. Yeah. Is is one of the big ones in there. And that allows you to to use it but you can't upload an entire film because it

Alex Ferrari 8:52
just put a commentary on it. Yeah, like that's

Evan Zeisel 8:54
not but you know, you know, the ones that the YouTube channels that do the breakdown of the films, right, and sort of like Well, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong. They're not using the whole film. They're using clips and they're talking specifically about it and it's not people are watching that video not to watch the film they're watching it to watch that video that is the commentary

Alex Ferrari 9:14
right and then they actually in YouTube is become very ridiculous about it now where now these copyright holders like Warner Brothers and stuff like that they'll just start they just blanketed go after anybody that even has a second of Avengers and one of these talking points that's no one's talking over. Because I've gotten hit with that we have a series on on an indie film hustle that's it's called the director series which is it's a commentary series about breaking down famous directors and their work and I've been hit with that constantly. I'm like dude, it's it's completely fair use but then the big boys will start pushing back on you and just like what we don't care.

Evan Zeisel 9:50
If you want to be you have technically you have the law on your side there. I'm so I am a big supporter of protecting those who have the cops Right, and then not getting screwed out of earnings. But I also believe fair use is fair use. And there are times and places for that that are appropriate. And one of the things that we we sort of say to our our users is, know the difference between copyright infringement and fair use. If somebody is doing a commentary on your film, people gonna watch that and then watch your film. Like, you want that that's a positive thing. It's, it's kind of goes to the, you know, the Disney copyright thing related to cosplay, where they used to, I don't know, if they still do, but they, they don't allow people to dress up because they don't want the name, you know, injured or whatever. And at the same time, if you think about it, everybody watching these cosplay, people are like, Oh, yeah, I love that film. I'm gonna go rewatch it. It's free advertising. And it's, and YouTube is only started doing that, because they've been losing lawsuits. They would they don't do it on their own until they're pushed, it's it's all about the money.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
It's always it seems to be always about the money. But that's this, as as they say, a tail is all this time.

Evan Zeisel 11:08
I mean, that's, it's both sides at the boat, the piracy is not about them actually caring about your film, it's them making money, and YouTube, they make their ad sales, regardless of if it's a copyright infringement or not. until some giant copyright holders start suing,

Alex Ferrari 11:26
when then that's the thing was that before before the internet, it was just DVDs. And people would just burn out DVDs or burn out VHS is or copy and then sell them on the street. And it was a lot harder to kind of break that down. But it also was a very limited amount, like you weren't losing. It's not like well, in China, they do that still. And you know, it's insane. But ever since the internet showed up now, it's like, few hours later, it's around the world and you're done. It's a second it hits so that's why like all these big movies are hitting HBO max right now. You know, I mean, Godzilla versus King Kong, which is a quote unquote theatrical release. That's that's been pirated moment it hit the online. Oh, yeah. It's gone. It's like,

Evan Zeisel 12:09
I mean, I remember. I remember back in the day, well, remember back in the day, the handheld videos in the theater. Oh, my Seinfeld. Down in

Alex Ferrari 12:18
town, there was like, there was like a Seinfeld episode where Jerry accidentally became like, the ultimate bootlegging a tour, and he would just like, you know, it's like how he shot it and everything. Yeah, and those are Riddick Yeah, you just see, do you see people get up in the scene and

Evan Zeisel 12:33
walk around, but those are still those are still available, those are still being done in other cities in other countries. And then I mean, but now unfortunately, with with modern technology and computer

Alex Ferrari 12:45
a lot easier, you can

Evan Zeisel 12:46
just screen record, and it's a perfect copy. Unfortunately, I'm not. I'm not telling anybody anything they don't know. Sure not telling pirates how to do the job. But it's, it's easy, and, and really annoying, because at least when there's somebody standing in the way, the viewers like, okay, maybe this isn't legit. Or maybe, maybe I'll buy the real thing.

Alex Ferrari 13:07
But the thing is, I think one of the things that I found that piracy, what the studios have done, and I think independent filmmakers need to do as well is they've made it so easy to consume the content, that it's harder now to go out and bootleg something for the for the most part, like go in scope, find the file, download the file, get that file to play either on your computer or try to figure out a way to play it out on your TV. there's a there's a technical process there. Most everyday people aren't going to this is just my my opinion.

Evan Zeisel 13:44
Yeah, I'm biting my tongue on this one. What do you think? I think on certain things, and I don't want to tell people how to hire it. Of course movies. Yeah, I mean, you're sort of talking about torrents which are one of the aspects of it. But these days, unfortunately, this streaming websites,

Alex Ferrari 14:02
oh, yeah, I saw my movie. Oh, yeah, I saw a movie there's

Evan Zeisel 14:06
my partner will kill me. So when I, when