BPS 423: From Instagram Mysteries to Indie Horror The Bold Experiments of Joe Kowalski

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Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
On this episode, we have a Cleveland, Ohio based filmmaker who recently made I am the doorway, a Stephen King Dollar Baby short film, and he's hitting the film festival circuit with another film of his called PRISM, with guest Joe Kowalski. No problem. And remember, the first time you were here, I butchered your last name and I called you something completely different. I don't remember what it was, and I compared it to a deal the team when John Travolta called, you know, again, he called her a delta,

Joe Kowalski 2:24
Right! I do remember this.

Dave Bullis 2:29
Yeah, it was, I was like, What the hell happened there? I was like, I knew his last name, and I called you something else. I was like, Wait, what the hell did I just do there? So I understand how John Travolta feels, but, but, but, but, since you've been on here, Joe, I think you were episode 84 I want to say, so that was actually, you know what, Joe, we're getting close to over 100 episodes ago, because I'm up to, like, one, yeah, right. It's like 160 whatever I'm up to now. And, you know, it's just, you know, it's almost 100 episodes ago. We're like, we're like, less than 20 away. And so, you know, Joe, I wanted to reconnect with you, because you're always up to something really cool. And I wanted to ask about a couple of things, you know, and as we sort of get rolling on this so, you know, since we've last talked, you've done, one, you've done $1 Baby Stephen King short film. Two, you've graduated from college, and three, you have started an Instagram murder mystery type interactive game. So I'm probably missed a couple other things. So I wanted to ask about all that, all that stuff, because I think it's awesome, and particularly about your Stephen King short story, the Dollar Baby. For those listeners, I've touched on this too. I had, I actually got $1 Baby done once. And I'll tell just real quick. I don't want to eat up all the time. Joe with talking about me, I'm trying to talk to you about your stuff, but you know, I actually did the Dollar Baby too, and I did in the death room. We actually shot an Eastern State Penitentiary here in Philadelphia. I got us a location for a pretty discounted rate. They wouldn't, they they also just let us skip down on the insurance bond. We actually had one, but it wasn't, wasn't the one that they usually recommend. It was, or ask for. It was a was a lower one that allowed us to, sort of, you know, make the production a little cheaper. We shot for that in that in there for like, a day. We shot at Ridley Creek State Park, here, right down the street from me, for here in media, and we kind of like put all this together, and at the end of it all the the editor just lost all the footage. And when about it, they were like, they were like, are you gonna sue that guy? And I said, he's a lunatic, as he came recommended to me by somebody, right? And we, were working with him, and he just kept sitting on the footage. I was like, What do you because he, you know, what happened with Joe? He had a Facebook addiction, and he would just scroll on Facebook rather than doing and I kept saying, I'm like, Just give me the footage back and I'll go to somewhere else. Well, finally, he got it together and we were gonna make all these adjustments. We were so close to having the final product done. And then he sends me this message that his Mac was dying. And I said, Look, I hope you pay for it. And then he's like, Oh, well, I don't know what I'm gonna do about this and blah, blah, this or that. And basically, that was the end of it. And he said that although his Mac finally died, and all the footage went with it, and I couldn't get a hold of him, you know, a lot of crazy editors out there. So honestly, here's my advice. Anyone listening to this, always have a backup of your footage, because my DP just gave him. My DP just gave him the actual fucking hard drive with everything on it, and said, Here you go, edit the footage. And I was like, Dude, I go. I can't believe you did that without giving it to me first and letting me copy all this crap, but, but, that was my Dollar Baby adventure. It's another horror story that I have about filmmaking, Joe. It's somebody else pointed out. They're like, Dave, all your stories are all end in, like, heartbreak and, and, you know, down on March, stuff like that. And I go, Yeah, it's the truth, man, because I have so many crazy people, but, uh, but, but, no, but, I want to hear about your experience. Joe, you know, how did you pick the story that you picked? You know, What story did you actually pick? You know, how did you shoot all this? How did you shoot everything? You know, being as it's, you know, it's very limited to being what you can do, because obviously you can't get investors for it, stuff like that. So you have to kind of work in a very shoestring budget, unless you have a ton of money, you know what I mean. But I want to hear all this about, all about this jokes. I'm fascinated. So What story did you pick from, from the Dollar Baby collection?

Joe Kowalski 6:32
And just to, just to clarify for the audience, the Dollar Baby setup is something that Stephen King has done whereby he has a select number of his short stories, a lot of older ones in the 70s and early 80s that are available to use, as long as you pay $1 to him. So there's probably about maybe 20 short stories on the list. And it's really cool, because people like me who don't have huge budgets and stuff, can technically make even King film without having to pay ridiculous sums of money. So I had chosen I am the doorway. This kind of came about because the girl I was dating at the time was a huge Stephen King fan, and she had heard of this before, and I had heard of it before, and we were putting together a film called PRISM that I that I released last year, that was a half an hour film. And we were thinking like, Well, half an hour is kind of short to bring in a whole audience and stuff. So we ended up doing is we kind of made a film festival event, and we featured some other short films from around the world in this theater in Cleveland. And I am the doorway, which is the one we ended up going with, was one of those we it was kind of another way to kind of make the ticket worth it for people you know and and kind of give them a full experience. So it was chosen by the girl I was dating at the time. We went through a whole bunch of them, though, and we read a bunch of them. We were trying to figure out, like, what is something that we could do having almost no budget and having only about a month's worth of time before this big event. And what we did was choose that one, because a lot of what the supernaturalness, as you see in a lot of Stephen King short stories, was kind of taking place off screen, and you were seeing more the results of what was happening, because you get this astronaut who comes back to Earth and starts getting these eyes that pop up on his body. And we kind of created a framework story where we had these two guys talking in a bar about this whole situation and and they kind of tie into the story. So it was, it was kind of cool doing that, because typically, I'm used to starting stories from scratch and building upon those and and working upon that with friends, but it was really interesting to take someone else's work, especially someone as you know, prolific as Stephen King, and try to adapt that To like a 10 minute short film.

Dave Bullis 9:22
Yeah, you see, I just as a filmmaker standpoint, I'm sorry, as a filmmaker standpoint, I just kind of think, even just trying to do something like that, Joe, we have an astro come back down to earth. I mean, it just sounds expensive. We're just wearing my producer hat, you know, even with doing with with death room, you know, I had that whole prisons, you know, a location, and even just paying for that, I was like, you know, what they're gonna charge us, you know, whatever they charge us. It was, you know, I think probably a grand or something, even for that day, even back then, I was like, Jesus Christ, a grand. And, you know, we got to make sure everything's set, so many problems that you know or and ended up being my fault because I to do this. I listened to too many people, and that was my fault for doing it. I've learned a lot of things on each and every project. That project was me listening to too many people, and I tried to sort of do everything that everyone was recommending. And I just, I, you know, we had, we had too much time being wasted, and there was a lot of production issues that could have been ironed out if I had not listened to all those people. If you know what I'm trying to say, like I that didn't even need to be there, that we could have just went. We went, we went, you know what? We don't even need this fucking thing. Fuck it, and let's just get rid of it. You know?

Joe Kowalski 10:46
Yeah, and I've worked with directors who have skewed one way or the other, and, and some of them are very well meaning, but yeah, you do have some people who will literally waste all the time on set. They see it just like, like, a party, you know? They got all their friends together. They're gonna, oh, wouldn't be cool if we did this and they take an hour. Oh, we gotta find a rope and takes another hour. Let's, let's just eat. We're gonna eat people like that. And then you do have the people who are like so anal about trying to, this is my masterpiece, you know, I gotta get every single detail right. Oh, more of a tiny little smirk in that performance and stuff. And so, one thing that I've learned over the years, and I'm trying, to always get better at, is finding the balance between like, I want this set to be enjoyable. I want people to be having a good time and not feel like they're miserable doing this, but at the same time, we also do have to keep, like, a tight schedule on this. And I there are some things I do want to be kind of specific about, and that I'm very certain that I went but I also have to know when it when to compromise on that, like if it's not going to work out, find another way around. If someone has a great suggestion, be willing and open to all suggestions if they're going to make the story better or help move things along better for everybody. So it is a really hard balance. It is very tough. So I can understand falling into that trap entirely, because I've been there before.

Dave Bullis 12:10
Yeah, it was funny too, because, well, funny now, but, but it was just because, you know, somebody was, who was a worked at, at a film festival, contacted me, and he, he actually was a local Philly guy, and we met, and I'll never forget this. I forget his name, but I never forget where we met. We actually met, and he asked me to meet up with him at the at the Philly anarchist paper headquarters. And I said, first off, I didn't even know Phil Yeah, I didn't even know Philadelphia had an anarchist newspaper. I didn't even know when anarchist newspaper was a thing we walk in, Joe, and I'm not kidding you, there's a big sign on the wall that says, Please no drug use allowed or sorry, please do not use drugs while on the premises. And in parentheses, yes, this includes weed and parentheses. And I, and I'm just laughing, going, you have to put a board up like that. Like, what the fuck is going on in here? Oh, man, I started talking to this guy. And as this guy was talking and, I mean, I'm sure he met, well, like, I'm like, first off, the neighborhood was terrible, and I'm sitting there going, Why the hell are we even like, Why? Why did I have to meet for them? This is another thing, Joe that always kind of like grinds my gears. People always ask to meet me in person, or they want to meet up for coffee or something. I go, why? Why don't we just do a Skype message? Or, why don't you just shoot me an email? Why do we have to meet face to face? Like, I don't get it, like, honestly, I gotta waste my time, get put gas in my car, drive up all the way into the city or wherever the hell you are, and then we gotta meet. And it never, nothing ever gets resolved, because we just go back and forth. And it's the same thing with that Stephen King Guy. We could have done that over a Skype interview with Sharon screen share and had the same exact thing. And we both could have just been in the comfort of our own homes. It just, you know what I mean? It just, I just, I'm not saying I'm like, gonna become some obese shut in or anything like that, like the mom from Gilbert Grape, but, but, but, well, I'm getting there, though, Joe. But, like, to me, if you're gonna meet somebody, you should have a clear objective, because everyone's I'm at the point in my life now where I just think time is money now, and I'm always, you know, when I was I mean, how old are you Joe, 24?

Joe Kowalski 14:19
I'm only 22 I'm a baby,

Dave Bullis 14:23
22 years young, and I'm sorry, and I'm cursing up a storm at you, sir. But okay, so you're 22 so I'm 10 years older than you are, and so basically I'm at the point now Joe, where, like, I've become, like, That guy I always didn't want to be where I'm just like, you know, everything's time is money, you know. But when I was when I was your age, Joe, again, I'm sounding old as shit right now, when I was your age, Joe, I actually, I would go out and I would go on random film sets, I would meet new people, and I would just, you know what, I'm just gonna treat everything like an adventure. I'm gonna treat everything like a learning experience, and I'm just gonna go out there and. Going to see whatever happens. And when I made my Stephen King Dollar Baby, I think I was 24 or 25 and then I used that experience to parlay that into making a TV pilot, which I won't go into because, you know, listeners of this show know that story inside and out, but with with the whole with that, what I did there was, I was always looking at everything as like a learning experience. And when, you know, meeting all these different people on the course of actually making this Stephen King Dollar Baby, I've met so many interesting people for both good and bad. But like, you know, I think, as a filmmaker, when you're that age, you know, 22 23 24 you know, you have to go out there and see all these, you know, make all these mistakes, and then when you're like, 28 29 that's kind of like you're, you're starting to be getting your prime. That's the age Quentin Tarantino make Reservoir Dogs. I think that was the age when, when Rodriguez made Rebel Without a crew, El Mariachi. I'm not sure. Though, that's the age where Damien Chazz made whiplash, and I, you know what I mean, so right? I kind of look at those experiences as kind of molding me, because that's what I'm sure that's the whole point of what I'm trying to say here is, you know, and you know, treating this as knowing the when these opportunities come down, knowing what is going to be a good opportunity and what's gonna just be a waste of your time. It's almost like doing me like, when somebody like, when a producer comes to you and says, Hey, listen, I got this. You know, a producer, quote, unquote, comes to you and says, Hey, listen, Joe, I gotta, I got this, you know, whole, whole TV pilot ready to roll. I need someone to direct it. Would you want to direct it? And in your at first, you're like, Okay, I'll talk to you about it. And you start to meet, and you go, Oh, crap, there's so many holes in this. It's unbelievable. You know what I mean? You start, you start seeing between the lines, if you know what I'm trying to say,

Joe Kowalski 16:49
Right! I think a big part of it too, is that I think time is the most important thing for everybody on set, not just because of how the schedule is and everything, but ultimately, especially on an independent film, and you don't have the ability to pay people, that's the biggest thing they're giving you, and that's the biggest thing they can give you, is just that time to be there and help make your thing come to life. And so I just find it so incredibly disrespectful when people don't value that time and don't take into account that, you know, these people don't have to be there. They're not, you know, they're not being paid to be there or anything. They don't have any obligation to you, other than the sense that maybe they care about this project too, or maybe they want to see you succeed. So I definitely don't, you mean when it comes to a lot of the points that you've made. And I I just, I try to respect that time, and I want people to get a full experience out of it. So like, like I said when I was trying to put together this festival event, I wanted to make sure that if people were going to come and and we didn't have a set price, but we just were kind of taking donations in general, but people are going to come and donate money. I want them to come out seeing like, an hour and 15 minutes of really top notch short films and and it's tough when you have friends who come up and say, Hey, can you include my film in this? And I go, I don't think I can. It doesn't quite meet the expectations of what we're trying to do with this. It's tough to be able to do that, and to be able to say like, you know, and I, I think you worked hard on this, but you know, deep down, you know that it's not quite the quality that you want, and it's a hard thing to do that, because you want to make everyone happen. You want to have all those contexts. But you're right. You do have to start getting more selective about how you spend your time and and what you choose to work on, right?

Dave Bullis 18:42
Yeah, you know, somebody once told me, Joe, that life is is all about creating a bubble around yourself and you, and you start to understand what you like and don't like inside of that bubble, and anything and everybody that's not within that confines, you push out of that bubble. And basically that's, you know what I mean. And I started to realize that over the years, and when I, when I meet people, and it's just like, hey, you know, because I, because I do this podcast, and I'll get an email, probably, maybe once, I don't, maybe once a week, saying, Hey, Dave, would you ever, you know, if you're ever up in New Jersey or in New York, or you want to come in Philly or whatever, why don't you come and we'll have coffee or whatever? And I just go, You know what? I just don't know, why? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to sound like a jerk. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I really don't like, I don't want to be like, Oh, I'm Dave bulls, but no, I'm just like, you know, why would you want to talk to me? Like, what, you know what I mean? And it's just like, I want, I want to make sure that we're each getting something out of it. And it's not just going to be, you know, turning to a pitch meeting, which, by the way, Joe has happened. I've had people meet me and they go, they're just like, hey, yeah. And there's like, Hey, Dave, you know, would you want to join this project? And I go, No, like, when they he was heartbroken. He goes, he looks at me, he goes, why not? And I go, Well, it's and it's like you were just saying you you try to, you know, you want to see people succeed, but you just want to. You know, you want to say, Well, it's because it's not going to work, dude. There's so many holes in this, in production, like, Hey, can we can we shoot a and you and I talked about this before, about shooting period pieces on a budget, like, hey, I want to shoot a civil war. I want to shoot a Civil War period piece with 500 bucks. Oh, okay, good luck. You know,

Joe Kowalski 20:34
I know what. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And you get the you get a lot of that too, and, and, you know what, if they do have a substantial amount of money, then those things are realistic, but otherwise I that's a big part of it too, is knowing what realistically can accomplish. And that's something I always try to take into mind when I when I write, the projects that I do, is I know the resources I have to work with primarily. I know the people I have to work with primarily, and and be smart about how you do it, because people will be so much more impressed if you make a really good film within your limits than if you try to reach too far. And that doesn't say that doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge yourself, and that doesn't mean that you know you might throw in something that might that might be a little more expensive, it might be a little bit more complicated, that you're going to have to figure out. You got to give yourself those challenges, but at the same time, don't, like you said, try to make like, a period piece of like this crazy futuristic sci fi, when you know that realistically, if you try to do that, you're only going to get like 20% of the way there, and people are just going to see it as a little silly,

Dave Bullis 21:44
Yeah and it's just going to be, you know, if you want to do, yeah, do all that stuff. And, you know, hey, do you have somebody that knows or rents period piece costumes? Because five, you know, even if I bumped up to $5,000 budget, like, you're going to eat through that in no time. Just, just the setting up the world, and it is gonna, and you're right, it's gonna end up looking just silly, you know, and it's just gonna end up looking, just look crazy. I'll give you another example, and then we'll get back to what you were talking about. Again. I don't wanna, I wanted to talk about your stuff, but like, you know, I had a guy before come to me, and he wanted to shoot a zombie film for, like, I think he said, like, 500 bucks. And I said, you know, it's possible. Because I said, if you look at Colin, and I actually had the director and writer, Mark V Prince, on this podcast, and we talked about how he did it for 50 bucks or and really did he shot for 50 bucks, shot a full length zombie feature called Colin, which is actually really freaking cool. And basically, with Colin, it's a he get this guy gets bit by zombie in the beginning of the film, and he becomes a zombie, and for the rest of the film, you follow this shambling zombie throughout the rest of the film. It's actually really cool. And in fact, the fact that he shot it, yeah, honestly, it was a phenomenal idea, and the fact that he got it, did it for 50 bucks. Makes even better, because I told him, I said it, Mark, if you had shot this for, like, let's just say somebody gave you a million dollars. I said you would have shot yourself in the foot. And you know what I mean, because you would have been like, holy shit. Now we can have a building explode, you know what I mean? And I think that's sometimes, you know, as again, we were talking about, you know, you got to weigh your opportunities, but, but Mark, you know, he was able to do whatever he wanted because he, you know, obviously 50 bucks is 50 bucks, but, um, but anyways. But, you know, as we talk about that, that guy was someone with a zombie feature. He wanted to shoot it for 500 bucks. And he basically was, was, like, real adamant about shooting this thing. And Joe, I am not kidding around with you. He wanted to shoot it in at three o'clock in the morning. He wanted to shoot this one scene at three o'clock in the morning, and I'm looking on Google Maps, and I said, What's this building right across the street from where we're gonna film? He goes, Oh, that's the police station. I said, are we gonna have permits? He goes, No, no. This is all gonna be guerrilla stuff. I said, so we're gonna run across from the police station with the army of zombies, and you don't think anyone's gonna say anything. And he looks at me, he goes, No, do you think they will? I go, Yeah, dude, I think the police are gonna look out their window and go, Hey, here's somebody filming without a permit. Yeah, oh, boy. So yeah, it's stuff like that, man. But you know, as as we go back to talking about your stuff, Joe, so what were some of the biggest production issues you had on making your dollar baby? I mean, did you start a crowdfunding campaign for it?

Joe Kowalski 24:28
No, like I said, this was kind of more of a side thing that we could show off for the festival. So we actually shot pretty much most of it all in one weekend. And one of the locations was a restaurant that I do some media work for that I got permission, then we filmed at a beach that was public, you know, just public property, and, yeah, it was just a lot of like, again, like using your resources and saying. Here I have this. So why don't I throw this in here, you know, and working with it and making it work within the stories context, a far bigger project was the film prism that I mentioned that we were kind of showcasing around this whole festival event. And that was that film basically took a year from the first first typing it to actually showing it off. And I could talk a little bit about that, if you'd like me to at all.

Dave Bullis 25:33
Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Kowalski 25:35
Basically, the movie is about six people from two different families, and each character is represented by a separate color. So that while the most the film you see is in black and white, when that character is on screen, you see their color pop out of the black and white. So like, if you remember, like, in Schindler's List, there's like, the girl red dress and and that photo effect comes up a lot, you know, you see, like, yellow highlights come out of a, you know, a picture of somebody or something like that. We basically did that with the whole movie. So like, when you our character Green was on screen, his shirt would come out because he was wearing green. But also the trees in the background, you would see them. And that was a very interesting challenge, from a storytelling standpoint, from a technical standpoint, because all that, I think if you're going to do something like that, each of the colors have to have a meaning to them. So that was something we were very certain about. And also the story kind of weaves in and out of these characters lives and how they relate to each other. And this person's cheating on this person, and this person's it has a crush on this person and and one thing I really had to learn from this film was really to just outline everything. And that's not something I'm very used to doing. I kind of like diving in and then just seeing where it goes. And sometimes that works, but it's a lot of work after the fact to try to make that into something cohesive, but particularly in relation to the families, we had to, like, sit down and write out a family tree and and figure out the relation of each character to the other. And that was something that was kind of difficult, because then we would say, well, this doesn't really work, because this character wouldn't interact with this person. It was a very unusual process for this whole movie, and we aren't really able to show it off yet because we're trying to get in some film festivals, and we haven't had any luck yet, but we're gonna keep trying. But the trailer is online, if anyone wants to check it out, if you look up like prism 2016 or prism short film 2016 or even on my channel, Pogie Joe, that's P, O, G, I, E, Joe. There's a couple trailers on there, so you can kind of get an idea of what I'm talking about with this color thing.

Dave Bullis 27:54
You know, Joe, I actually have some film festivals. I would recommend that you entered into number one being the Delco Film Festival. I think they that would be a good film festival for you to enter it into. That's actually right by my house as well. But if you'd like, I can actually introduce you. I can actually introduce you to the guy who runs it.

Joe Kowalski 28:12
Oh, that'd be, that would be amazing. And you know, if I was ever in that area, we could meet up and have some coffee. And I have this great pitch I want to sell you.

Dave Bullis 28:20
Yeah, yeah, no, go, Joe, no way. No, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, I would see like, like, somebody that I've actually met and talked to. I would be down for that. And the funny the founders Chris Pier miniko, and he's actually been on the podcast before. And Chris is, Chris is a very good guy, and before we got on the podcast, he said to me, he's like, please try not to curse too much, because I'm going to recommend this to my students, and don't tell any weird stories. And I go, that's all I have in life. Is weird stories and cursing. That's it. It's like, you take that away from me. I'm not I'm nothing anymore, right? You're a show. But, yeah, exactly. I'm just, like, a shell of a man. I'm not even, I'm not even my George Costanza self, but I will introduce you to him, and right after this podcast, and I'm sure Chris would love to talk to you about having that film there. And you know, so as you may know, your dollar baby too, because I'll link to everything in the show notes as well everybody. I'll link to the Delco Film Festival and every and Joe's channel and everything else. But when you're talking about, you know, your dollar baby, and you actually just, you shot it into a weekend, did you have any, like, real huge production issues come up that that, like, anything like we were talking about, or anything like, completely unexpected, like, hey, it rained on a Sunday when we thought it was going to be clear skies, anything like that.

Joe Kowalski 29:40
Um, actually, that was surprisingly straightforward. We were actually kind of marveling that it came out as well as it did. And the nice part about it is that the people we cast in it were people that we were considering for the other film prism that were really good, but they just didn't quite fit the parts we were looking for. So we're like, what's a. Capacity that we can use these people we were able to get four of these actors who were really, really good that I still wanted to work with into this film, and, you know, get to spend a couple days filming with them. And the thing about that, it was just basically a skeleton crew of me, my and my, my girlfriend at the time, and so I guess we didn't really have to worry too much about other casting crew members. It wasn't like the other film where we had, like a full cast and everything. It was kind of just us just going at it. And it was, it was almost a fun relief side project after having that massive project, like I said, kind of churning into that for a year. So actually, I'm really, really glad I did the Dollar Baby, because it was just such a nice, like, on what's the word I'm looking for? It wasn't, it wasn't a high level stress thing. It was something that we, we planned out and really just kind of had fun doing.

Dave Bullis 31:12
And, you know, that's something to, you know, I talked to Alex Ferrari about, Indie Film Hustle, and we were talking about that as well where, you know, at some points, and I mean, you you, and it's good that you learn at the age of 22 sometimes when you're making something, you just get this obsession with it, like everything has to be perfect. And then you start, you know, and everything that stress starts to get on you. And then you, by the end of it, you're like, I just can't wait to get this thing done, and I'll never talk about it again. And you're like, and honestly, that's what happened to me in my short, my student film. I By the end Joe, I was like, I just want to get these last shots I'm going to do the last day I was doing my short, my student film, I actually said I everybody. I said, we're doing one take of everything, that's it, and then I'm and then we're just going to call it a day. And everybody was just burned out from it. So we ended up doing more than one take on a lot of stuff. But still, it ended up and we're like, look, that's it. We're done. I don't want to talk about this ever again, but it's, you know, and then you want to do something fun where you just can have fun while you're actually shooting. Because, you know, at the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun, right?

Joe Kowalski 32:15
Yeah, yeah. And that's why I think you really, really have to care about the story you're telling with a big, long term production, because it is very easy to get tired of it, but you have to know deep down that when you finish it, it's going to be so rewarding, because it's a story you really care about. And in a way, you never quite leave it, because even after you show it, at least in my case, we did like crowdfunding, so you still have to go in and, you know, make the DVDs and the blu rays and the bonus material, and you still have to promote it for film festivals if you're trying to get into that whole realm and, and, and then you have to try to get the movie to various people and who didn't get chance to see it, and, and you forever are always kind of attached to it and and Pushing it and trying to get it out to people. So that's the thing. I think that's really important, and that's why I try to come up with good stories that are that I can care about even when I don't feel like caring about them.

Dave Bullis 33:18
Yeah, it is, you know, and when you're trying to have, you know, just a good time with this stuff. And you know, you want to be able to see, you know, have fun while you're making it. And then you see it up on the screen and something everyone can be proud of. And you because, you know, you all did your best. And you it's that feeling you get, you know, you okay, we've, you know, it was, it was a little tough. It was a little frustrating. We're all tired, but we all did our best. And now the the proofs in the pudding. Now it's all up on up on up on screen there. And, you know, some days you watch it and you like, oh, man, there's a mistake. There's another mistake, yeah. And, you know, and sort of, you know that, you know what I mean, like that, that that sort of seeps in after a while too. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think some of the best filmmaking advice is by Mark Duplass, where he said, literally, every weekend, go out and for 100 bucks, make a short film with your friends. He said, don't spend more than 100 bucks, and it'll teach you more about filmmaking. Then, then, then anything else could because you're actually out there doing it, and you're actually out there, actually making stuff. And you can, you know, and if you don't, and honestly, if it sucks, hey, we spent 100 bucks, if it's good you put up on YouTube.

Joe Kowalski 34:23
Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's one thing I'm really grateful for with things like YouTube, is because since I've been doing it for seven years now, fairly regularly, it is that kind of experience where I always am trying new things and and making cool stuff with friends and and you're right, like, you know, even if you're not even spending that much money, you're still getting the experience you're you're making something that can be a sort of time capsule. Like, I remember when I was hanging out with that friend in Cleveland, you know, years, years later. And I think, honestly, I think. That's how I got to where I am. It's not like I'm I'm not trying to brag or anything. I'm not saying that I'm, like, at the top of the top, or anything like that. But I think I've done more than a lot of peers my age because of that experience, and because I've always been interested in creating things, and I can't stop,

Dave Bullis 35:18
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know. And you know you, I think artists more than anybody else, obviously, because they have this desire to create. It's like this desire, this innate desire, you're kind of born with, and you have this desire to create. And sometimes you're when you're younger, you don't really know what it is. You just kind of do it. You know what I mean, whether it be like an arts and crafts or something like that. And then some people pick up a video camera if they're, if they're, you know, if they that's what they're, if their adolescence is filled with, if their parents had a video camera. And you, you sort of, you know, you start doing all this stuff. And, I mean, you know, because you're born with this life, and it's almost like this feeling of, we have to create something of value at all times. And it's something I feel too. And it's almost like this feeling of, okay, I'm here now. What should I do? Well, you know, and if you're an artist, you say, Well, I'm gonna create some more. I got this desire to create. And, you know, maybe other people are like chefs, and they just want to make, make food. And that's that sort of desire to create. And you know, when we start putting all these projects out there. And you know, you've been doing YouTube for seven years, I think that's phenomenal, honestly, Joe, I hope you keep doing it. Because honestly, I you know you're obviously, I know you're getting better. You're getting better and better and better. And also because I just think it's a great outlet too. Because again, like we were just saying, if you make a film for 100 bucks, and if you don't like at the end of the day, hey, look, I spent 100 bucks. But if you do like it, hey, put it on, up on YouTube, and who knows what could happen.

Joe Kowalski 36:49
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's, I think there's a lot of merit you were saying about having those, those projects that are just something fun. And one thing for me too, besides just the YouTube stuff, is also our podcast, which, which you've actually been on once before, and we're not, that's right, yeah, have Yeah, we're not as far along as you are, but we're getting pretty close to 70 episodes. And that's like a fun thing where, like, just me and a few of my friends can get together once a week and just have a good time. And it's not something, you know, I'll have it edited in a couple hours, and you still have to post it and promote it a little bit, get sponsors occasionally and stuff like that. But at the same time, when we're just sitting there recording it, it's just an hour where we can just just have a good time and talk whether it be about deep things or maybe it's just goofy, light hearted stuff. But that's been a really cool project to collaborate with my friends on, because it is that little kind of low stress relieving kind of project.

Dave Bullis 38:00
Yeah, it's, you know, the podcast is fun. You know, that's why I do my podcast. I actually made a promise to myself. I said, the day it stops becoming fun, I'm gonna stop doing it. I've broken that promise a few times. But, you know, I was listening, I was listening to Tim Ferriss one time, and he said, the whole idea, the whole concept of his podcast, was, he goes, I just want to edit it myself, but I want to make editing no more than 10 minutes. He goes, if I had to sit here and edit out stuff, he goes, I hate doing that. He goes, I think it's pointless. He goes. I just want to have a conversation and put it up online. And, I mean, look at his fan base. It's unfreaking believable. And you know that that's kind of like, what I wanted to was, you know, just having, not having to sit here for, you know, four hours a night going, Okay, let me edit this podcast and do all this stuff. I mean, I do do some editing to it, but I try to keep it as pure with the conversation as possible. Most of my editing involves like, I'm gonna boost your maybe I'll boost your audio a little bit, or maybe I'll put like, a de Hiser effect in there, just to sort of take out any sort of like that, that static noise, or D Hummer, something like that, you know. But, yeah, I mean, a podcast is a really cool way just to, sort of, you know, just it's another form of media, because the the the gatekeepers are all non existent. Because, I mean, literally, you can create a podcast with your phone now and upload it to like something like podbean.

Joe Kowalski 39:20
Yeah, absolutely. And I already had all the equipment I needed to to make something like this, because I already have a bunch of audio and video equipment from doing all the other work that I do. So it wasn't like I needed to go out and get some special stuff. I mean, eventually we did get, like, a nicer microphone, and, you know, we'd like to eventually save up to do more live shows, to kind of have the equipment to do that. But, I mean, most of the stuff was already there. All we needed was each other and an idea. So I totally see the appeal and and while I edit it in like 10 minutes, I do take out some things. And you. You know, we bleep out a couple words and stuff like that.

For the most part. It's, it is a pretty low stress project compared to a lot of other things that that I'm trying to do.

Dave Bullis 40:22
And, you know, actually, it's something else I want to talk about too, is, you know, what else are you trying to do? Because I know you did the Instagram murder mystery game. So I want to hear about this because, like, you know, I purposely don't know anything about it, because I wanted to actually talk to you about it. So, like, what is it like a game? It's a game that anybody can play, right?

Joe Kowalski 40:39
Yeah, yeah. As long as long as you have an Instagram account, you should be able to play it. And this is actually I was trying to make a capstone for an interactive media class that I was taking before I graduated this past semester. And you know, a lot of people were doing a lot of cool stuff with, like VR and with like, some interactive videos, but I was trying to think of something that I hadn't tried before, because I had done a little bit of both those things. And I was thinking a lot about how people use Instagram sometimes to create these picture grids of sorts. You know, if you upload the pictures in the right order, all of a sudden, if you go to that person's page, you know, one big picture can be made out of, like, nine pictures. And I just thought that was really cool. So I was wondering, like, Could you do something with that, like, how do you, how do you make something that feels self contained, you know, not like, it's like, like, it's like, you're inside this little experience through Instagram. And so what I did is I used those kind of picture grids, and I used the tagging system, whereas, like, if you, if you tap on a picture, it will come up with, like, a tag and that person's account. So I between those two features. Again, Instagram isn't designed for something like this. But I kind of, yeah, created a game of sorts. And if you go to the account murder mystery game, all one word, people can check that out. I mean, you start out with, like a map of Cleveland, and then if you go to the individual pictures, there are those tags where you can go to other parts of Cleveland and look for clues, and then you get the testimony from all these different characters. And you, if you tap on more of the pictures within those accounts, you can sometimes see these fake characters accounts and just little clues that are hidden throughout. And like I said, the whole idea is that you're trying to solve this, this murder mystery of this, this girl who was killed. So it was a very unusual project, because it's, it's not a linear thing where you just set out like, Okay, I have this scene and I have this scene, but at the same time, I was utilizing a lot of things I had learned from doing video and filmmaking and stuff like that. Whereas, you know, if you set up a schedule a meeting with this person at this time, we're going to record video of them. We're gonna stage a bunch of pictures with them, and then later on, we're moving to this person and and planning it out like that made it a much less scarier process, because I got way in over my head. One of the things I faced too was that for every new Instagram account, you have to have an email address attached to it. So I was just making all these Gmail accounts that were associating with all the different accounts. But then Gmail was like, Hey, you can't make that many accounts. And I was like, okay, so then I went to Yahoo, and I started making all these big Yahoo accounts to try to make more Instagram accounts. And Yahoo was like, Hey, you can't make that many Yahoo accounts, so I ended up going to like seven different email servers to try to create all these fake email accounts. I could make all these different Instagram accounts, which is just yet another way that proves that Instagram wasn't really designed to work like that. You know,

Dave Bullis 43:59
Yeah, definitely, you know, Instagram is cool and all, but there's a lot of things that are like limiting with it. I know they want to make like, for instance, the mobile uploading, you know, I tried to like post things. I can post things to my desktop, but you know what I mean? And sometimes they make it so difficult to just post, you know, stuff like that. But because I, hey, I want to take a photo, and I want to do some stuff to it, then put it then put it to Instagram. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I understand completely. Were you?

Joe Kowalski 44:28
Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's a little bit of a lag. So that's that leads to some of it. I was just gonna say I did run into that problem a lot too, especially given that I have a very cheap phone that doesn't have a whole lot of memory, so anytime I had to, like, download all these pictures, or, God forbid, when I had to download the actual video clips, it would take up so much room on my phone that I would have to, like, delete a bunch of apps on my phone, download the pictures and footage, upload them to this Instagram account, and then re download my apps again.

Dave Bullis 45:03
It's, I mean, I know there was a slight lag on your side. I don't know, you know, I think I might be just our recording host, Skype, but, but with your phone and you had to do back up all that stuff. I've been there before I used to have, like, I bought, when the I bought one of the smart, first smartphones that came out, called the LG revolution, Joe was one of the worst freaking fans I've ever had. It was so I bought it into 2006 or seven. It was little, literally garbage. And I kept having to, like, back up on every everything else I would try to, you know, it was so I've been there, man, but, um, but no, I so it's so, if somebody wanted to, like, solve the murder mystery, Joe. So if I had an Instagram account, let's just say, right now I say I want to check out Joe's murder mystery game. I went to that Insta. I have an Instagram account. I went to your Instagram account. So we're, how do I how would I go about, like, solving my first clue to see, you know, to seeing who, you know, obviously, we find out who was murdered. How do we go about, you know, sort of doing this? Or do you provide any clues? Or are they supposed to, sort of have to solve it themselves?

Joe Kowalski 46:09
It's very much on the on the user's own volition, that they have to find the clues. But there are a lot of clues sprinkled throughout, but there's a lot of red herrings throughout and dead ends. And basically when most of the accounts start with murder mystery and then end with a word. So like when you're at the beach, it's murder mystery beach, and when you're downtown, it's murder mystery downtown. So to figure out if they solve right, you have to go to an account that starts with murder mystery and ends with the the murder weapon used to kill the victim. So and then on that page, you get to, kind of see if you were right, and you get a little, kind of set of pictures and a little video clip, kind of explaining how that went down. So if you look around and you go to all these different accounts, you'll you should be able to find out what the murder weapon was, and not everyone I've shown it to has figured it out. Some people needed a little extra help, but I did have quite a few people who were able to get to the end successfully. So that was the one thing I was nervous about. Like, did I make this too hard? Like, are people going to be able to figure this out? But there are, there are some people who were able to get to the end.

Dave Bullis 47:22
So without done, Joe, just, just to sort of ask, when you get to the end, is there any sort of like, like, I don't want to say prize, but is there anything that, like, a little trophy, or something that, like, people would like, you know what I mean, like they could sort of bragging rights. Or, you know what I mean, is there anything at the end where people know it's the end, and is there any type of like prize, so to speak, as I'm trying tosay,

Joe Kowalski 47:43
Um, not so much, any external prize. But like I said, when you when you get to the account, when you solve it, there is, like a set of pictures and like a video clip that kind of explained how, exactly how it happened. You get to see how that how the murder happened. And I that's, that's, that's pretty much it.

Dave Bullis 48:07
No, I just wanted to ask, you know, I imagine would be like, you know, cool bragging rights in it. And it is a really cool idea. So I'm glad, you know, honestly, using social media that way, where, you know, it's very creative, and, you know, it's a lot of interactivity, which I which, you know, I think is becoming big now, especially with, you know, stuff like advances in VR and stuff like that,

Joe Kowalski 48:28
Yeah, and that's the thing, is that all these interactive methods are constantly evolving. You're never going to have the same technology used, you know, even two or three years later, I went to the Cleveland Film Festival this year, which is a pretty, pretty big festival, for those who don't know anything about it, and they I went to a whole VR demonstration. And I've always kind of had a cattle interest in VR. I've gone to some meetings where I've got to try out the Oculus and and some of the other more elaborate ones where you get, like, the full body experience, which is really, really, really cool. And I, and I really believe, especially, that virtual reality is going to continue to be a bigger and bigger factor in our lives. I think, not only in terms of gaming, but in terms of of how we learn and things used in schools and and how we promote ideas, and it's can be such an immersive experience. But, yeah, some of these films at the Cleveland Film Festival, it's really interesting to see how they used virtual reality, because I think some of them nailed it really well. And some of them were like, you know, like, there was, I saw this documentary where they took you to an area where malaria was really active, and it was about this family trying to move to a new area where they could have tents that had mosquito nets on them and being and like seeing and be able to look around in these environments really, really connected you with this family in a way that I don't think I would have felt quite as strongly if it was just a regular 2d image that I was watching. And of course, at the end, it was for an organization where you could donate to help these families. And that was like a really exciting use of VR that I think that could be really useful in the future. But then I also watched another one where the whole idea was that you died and you got, like, buried. And that sounds really cool in theory, but it was not done in a way that I felt was, like it just felt really gimmicky, like it was telling, like, a really compelling story. I think it would be more interesting, but it was kind of grainy, and it was to the factor that, like, I think within two or three years, the technology is going to make something like that a little less likely to hold up than this really engaging documentary. And I also got to see too, there's a short film called Pearl that was nominated for an Academy Award, and it was a really big deal because it was the first virtual reality project to be nominated for an Academy Award. And that was another one like it was, yeah, maybe the technology will evolve. And it this, this short film won't be as immersive or as as high tech as it is right now, but it was such an endearing story that I think, I think it will hold up. It was about this, this father and daughter playing music together and traveling in the same band across across the country, and it was, it was just very, very touching. So I think, I think the more and more people use this kind of technology, and the more it evolves, I think we'll keep finding what works and what doesn't and what will hold up and what won't.

Dave Bullis 51:57
Yeah, you know, you touched on something there that I feel about, about, about VR, and sometimes I just feel that they're using it as sort of like a gimmick, where it's like, it's not really about a story, it's about, like, it's an exp, it's a pure experience. It's almost like a roller coaster. Yeah, you get on the roller coaster and you're not being you're not asking to be told a story. It's just like, here's an experience. And if, and if that, honestly, if that's what somebody wants to do. Hey, more power tone. Because, you know, I think, you know, you can't really tell somebody, you know, if that's what experience that you want to have. Hey, man, you know, go for it. But like, as far as storytelling goes, I think VR is gonna fall short. I just, I just don't think see it actually, where people are gonna sit there, honestly, Joe, if, like, maybe two hours, maybe four hours, even with, like, a video game. I'm talking about video games right now, worth like, if I had a video game with the VR headset on, with a controller in my hand, and it was like a first person shooter, and I'm, you know, zombies are coming in, I honestly can't see anybody. I can't see like, a main portion of the population anywhere in the world wanting to do that for more than, like, 20 minutes. I honestly, man, I think VR has a lot of lot of things it's going to share with 3d I think where VR is going to come into play. And I mentioned this with Jamie Buckner, who was on the podcast three episodes ago, as we were talking about this as well. I think the big thing with VR is is going to be education. Because yeah, because I actually used to work in higher ed, and I got to see a lot of different stuff. And I think one of the big things is going to be, is going to be like you, your textbook isn't going to be an actual book anymore. It's going to be almost like a tablet that, you know, when you're learning about the human body, you're going to, well, now we're gonna kind of get an AR, but, but the there's just gonna be an image of, like, Hey, we're studying the human brain, and then image of the human brain will come up out of this tablet, and, yeah, to actually interact with it, and touch and touch, okay, well, this is, this is your cerebellum, and this is gonna be your, you know, frontal cortex and stuff like that. And you're and you're like, oh, okay, that's where this is in the brain and shit like that. And I think that's where I think VR is going to be very huge. By the way, you want to hear something really cool that I was shown in higher ed, and it never got to I've never seen it anywhere, and I don't think, I don't think it's ever going to be approved. They had a special paint that had nanotechnology in it that actually blocked cell phones. So, like, you were like, Yeah, and actually, except for to dial 911, that was the only thing that it allowed. I never heard anything about it since I honestly passed, because I good, because probably, there's probably gonna be some issue where, like, it probably what. Well, they said it did it block nine. It didn't block 911, but they probably ended up did blocking 911, or something. And I couldn't and I couldn't figure out how to get it passed or, or maybe some, you know what I mean, because, because, if something ever did happen at a school, God forbid, you would sit there and say, Oh, well, they didn't have their cell phones because, then, because of the pain on the walls, yeah, so you don't want to be, you know, a. You don't want to be in that situation and then be like, well, the pain in the walls, you know, stop them. But, but, yeah, I but, but it's a cool idea, though. I mean, honestly, it sounds like a really good idea, but, but I get why it wouldn't be too mainstream, and maybe, maybe they're gonna roll it out later on. Maybe it's one of those things that takes a few years to come out, but, but, but, yeah, that's where I see VR going, as far as VR and movies go. I just don't think it's ever gonna happen. I honestly, I think we're at the point now where, I mean, there's a video game that's out right now that somebody was telling me, like, Hey, Dave, look at this. You could make a movie out of this someday. And I took a look at it, and I said, this thing is so far from a movie, I don't even know where to begin. And it was, it was this big war game where you could have these two armies battle into each other. And I said there's no, there's no detail to the characters. Every character has the same exact stabbing motion. I said it's really cool in scope. But I mean in in when you actually get down to it, it's not really, it's impressive from a coding standpoint, but from a movie standpoint, I said this would be, you know, people would tune out after a minute. You know, there's no story to it. There's no, there's no there's nothing that that's being told and you know that that's again, when we when we're differentiating between a story and an experience.

Joe Kowalski 56:15
Yeah, I think, um, I think there's a way they could still coexist, though, because I do kind of agree with you. I don't think it's going to take over movies, that all movie theaters are going to be VR experiences or anything, because I think it does offer a different thing. And the thing I'm starting to notice is that when you're directing a VR film, you direct it more like a stage show or like a play, because you with a movie, you have the choice of like. I'm going to put the pic to the camera here, and this is what the the audience sees. Whereas, like, with with a VR film, you have to think more of like, what do I what do I want to lead the audience toward? Like? If I want to look over this way, I'll have something flashy over here, you know? Or if I I'll have them follow this character as they walk across the way, and it presents an interesting challenge that I think doesn't replace movies, but could be a very interesting thing in and of itself. And I have to say, when it comes to gaming and stuff, there was a really cool game I tried at one of these VR demonstrations where you were on top of Castle and you had to knock over these little Minecraft like figures from getting into your fort. And I have to say, after, after about a minute of being there with this bow and arrow on top of this, this tower, you know, shooting at these little guys trying to get into your castle, not only do you, first of all, forget that you're pressing a button that's in your hand to unleash this bow and arrow, you kind of forget that you're not in this environment and and I think that's the thing where I don't know if I entirely agree that I don't, I don't think it will take I take over. Game may be the only thing available, but it was such an incredible experience for me to do this that if I think, if it's cheap enough, and I think it gets, it gets into enough hands, I can't see a future where this isn't a huge part of gaming personally,

Dave Bullis 58:12
Yeah, I, you know, I think it goes back to how people want to play their games. I know a lot of people want to like stream and it, you know, and they can wear their viewer headset and stream at the same time. I mean, like, for example, PewDiePie, if he were to do something like that, you know? I think also it depends upon sometimes, honestly, Joe, I feel like I'm staring at a screen every second of my day. Some days, which I probably am, I'm staring at either a laptop. I have four different laptops I have to use. I have two, two cell phones. And I'm just like, when I drive, I also have a an onboard computer that's my GPS, and also collect cell phone stuff for me. And it's just like, you know, I just, I don't have to look at that, but like, driving is probably the only time left. I'm not staring at a screen. And I'm just, you know, do I really want to do? I really want to, you know, just keep staring at a screen that's now gonna be like, two inches from my face. You know, I actually played, when I played that Batman game, it was actually for for PS four. It was actually really cool to look around the Bat Cave and everything like that. And, you know, take a look at this or that. And, and my friend had that exercise bike thing where you can put the VR headset on, and you can, you know you're in the Alps or whatever, really cool. But I just wonder if it's something where you're going to want to use it every day for the most and I know there's people out there who would use it every day, but for other people, I wonder if it's just something that would what I'm trying to say is I wonder if VR would end up just becoming a real niche market, almost like 3d became what I think 4k blu rays might become, because I hear 4k blu rays, and I honestly, you know, I mean, how many people if I, if I gave them, and, you know, a screen, I said, pick up the 4k version. Could actually find it if it was the same TV with the same players with, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it's just, Because, I mean, if it's not shot in 4k I mean, it's not going to look like 4k I mean, honestly, mad, Max Fury, road shot in 2k I see a 4k release of it, and I'm like, Why? Because it's not even, was even shot in 4k I mean, I know they could do upscaling and stuff like that, but I mean, really, you know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of this stuff's gonna end up becoming a niche sort of market, if that's just my prediction.

Joe Kowalski 1:00:36
Oh, VR will definitely have to cross that hurdle. Very similar to what you said, like 3d where I think one of the big reasons 3d didn't catch on as big as it did in a home market, is because of the glasses situation, you know, if you wanted to get together, because, like, I saw like, demonstrations of like, 3d sports games, and those are really cool. It just looked like these little tiny people, literally on your screen, running around. But, you know, like, if someone's trying to get together a group of friends and watch a like a like a basketball game or a football game or something like that, I highly doubt they're going to want to put on a bunch of glasses and fiddle with that. Now, let's get the settings right and stuff. So I think you're right to a certain degree. I think if VR wants to not just become that little niche thing, they're gonna have to find a way to, A, make it more financially available to everybody, and B, find a way that maybe they won't have to have these big, clunky headsets on the entire time, and make it more of a maybe a more integrated experience where it's it seemed like less hassle. You know.

Dave Bullis 1:01:38
Yes, that is, that is exactly right. Man, with those 3d glasses, I had a friend of mine who actually bought actually bought a 3d TV, and he bought four pairs of glasses. He bought it on one Black Friday. He had, you know, we went over there, we put on the glasses. We watched avatar, well, it's really cool. And I was like, you know, but after, and I'm like, you know, by the end, I'm less like, I'd rather just watch a regular 2d movie. Like, I honestly, man, I'm old school in that method where I'm just like, I'd rather watch an 80s horror slasher like Jason. Jason for the Friday 13th part three. He tried, they tried to make that 3d and I was like, Yeah, it's cool. And everything where, you know, the arrows are coming at you, the with the one shot and this and that another thing. But I'm like, at the end, you know, somebody once told me, good 3d goes in, bad, 3d comes out. So if you're constantly, like, dodging stuff that's, you know, okay, that's almost like a wake up to the audience, or that's like a cool effect, or whatever. But good 3d like Avatar was, it goes in and you can actually just see as far as you can, actually, as the eye can see, literally, because it's just an immersive world back there. You know what I mean? And, and, you know, that's one of the things why I actually did like Avatar. I actually was dating a girl at the time. I went to go see it, and she goes, That was terrible. That was terrible. I was like. I was like, shut up. What do you know about Shut up. What do you know about movies? I said, I'll tell you if it's good or not. No, I'm just kidding around. But, but, but, but, she said she didn't like it. We were just talking about it, and I was like, you know, I'm a sucker for James Cameron, but, but just to get back, we were talking about, you know, with, with all this stuff, you know, I just think, yeah, having people having to put on, like, headsets and stuff like that, it, it becomes like a, almost like a, like, you know, because some people are gonna say, oh, Greg, I put on this headset again. Or I gotta put it away, and you gotta find it again. Or it's just like something, like, they misplace it, they may or, you know what? I mean, it's just more things that are the moving parts to a situation. You know what I mean?

Joe Kowalski 1:03:25
Yeah, I think it's a very akin to something. I mean, it could go either way. Because, I mean, look at something like a, like a computer tablet, right? Like, like, when the iPad came out, people were scoffing because people been trying to pitch tablets for years. I mean, there have been, there have been tablets that came out in the 90s, and it just never connected with the public. You know, it just wasn't. They were too pricey, they were too clunky. But Apple managed to make something that people wanted and found a usage for. They brought back an old idea and made it in a way that was consumable, and made it in a way that people really, really liked. So, yeah, I completely agree, I think, with VR. And I think there are, I agree that there are some good uses of 3d but I don't think there was enough of a of a of a difference, like, um, I think one movie that used it really well that I saw in 3d was Pixar. Is up because, like, at the beginning of the film, the 3d was very flat, because you're living in his life where he's cooped up and and he's just this old guy, this widower and, and he's lonely. And then, like, when he's out there in the middle of South America, like, gets really deep, and he's up in the clouds, and it feels big and vast. So I think people are gonna have to use VR like that, you know, like I said, don't just tell a story about, look, you're dying and now you're in a coffin. Like, take the gimmick out of it and really focus on the exciting storytelling potential of this medium and what can be done with it, and, and, and that doesn't mean you have to play it safe, but, but be smart about how you use. It and use it in a way that that people connect to,

Dave Bullis 1:05:05
Yeah, exactly right, Joe, it always comes back to the story. It always comes back to, you know, what kind of story are you telling and what kind of emotional core are we going with here? You know what I mean? Because character, because people have to care about these characters. They have to be, you know, not sympathetic, but empathetic. We have to empathize with them and you know, and with the story you're telling. You know, it's just we have to become hooked. And that's why I always get pissed off Joe and people say you got to hook them in the first 10 pages. No, you have to hook them the whole freaking story, not the first 10 pages. Maybe the reader, maybe the maybe some reader, the gatekeeper, has to hook for the first 10 pages, for he or she passes. But for when I gather most, most gatekeepers, who are script readers, who have to read those scripts. They have to read everything cover to cover. They can't read the first 10 pages and say, CF, you know, forget this and and you know what I mean. And they have to read, report it, about it. Afterwards. They through their weekend reads and as well. And from what I gather, they have to read every script cover to cover. So you have to hook them the whole script. And you know, you have to hook them the whole whole time, no matter what you're doing. And you know, as you talk about the experiences that too, has a hook to it. You know, even if you ride a roller coaster, there has to be something special about it that sets it apart, whether you put all the extra loops in, whether twists and turns, whether you sit down like the Superman roller coaster, all that good stuff. And, yeah, I mean, you know, so, yeah, you know, everything has to have, you know, it's its speciality. It's, you know, what makes it special? And, you know, because Joe, I mean, we, you know, we've been talking for about over an hour now, and I want to ask, you know, Joe, is there anything we could talk about that you wanted to discuss now, or anything you wanted to say to put a period the end of this whole conversation?

Joe Kowalski 1:06:44
No, I guess just as a whole, like it's, it's really good to talk about this kind of stuff with people who who share your interests and and also care about creating. And I think it's important to to connect with with people who are doing stuff similar to us. And I think you just, you do that so wonderfully on your show and and you create this conversation, because there are all these people out there who are making such cool stuff, and it's so cool that you bring a light to those things. And I just want to thank you for for creating that conversation.

Dave Bullis 1:07:23
Oh, thank you so much, Joe. I try my best. I, you know, with this podcast and everything like that. And one of the reasons I started this was because I wanted to actually talk to filmmakers out there. And I got to meet Greenough, great people like you. I've got to, you know, I honestly got to meet so many great people. And I just look at it as, like, this is the tip of the iceberg, and I actually want to keep, just keep moving forward with this and in a lot of different ways, and, you know, and start doing a couple more things. And people, people actually, you know, not to segue too far away. But somebody once said to me, what are you working on now? You know, you haven't worked on anything in probably a few years, and honestly, it's, it's, I've been taking a step back, to take Stu to take two steps forward. And, you know, that's something I'm working on now, is I'm working on a ton of stuff, and a lot of cool podcasting stuff as well, that that I've been talking a few people about. And hopefully, you know, I'm gonna hope, hopefully, do a bunch of stuff with that soon and, but I also got other, a couple other things planned, but, but, yo, Joe, thank you so much, you know for coming on and work. Where can people find you out online?

Speaker 1 1:08:24
If you go to pogiejoe.com P, O, G, I, E, joe.com you can see all the things that I've talked about. We have our prism trailer on there. There's, I think I just put a thing about the murder mystery game. There's links to our podcast. And we're on all different kinds of podcasting apps and sources and everything. My YouTube stuff is on there, so if you want to see any of this stuff I've mentioned at all during the show, that's probably the best place to go.

Dave Bullis 1:08:54
And I will link to all that in the show notes. Everyone Joe does some really, really cool stuff. And I like that nickname too, poji Joe. And, you know, and, and he does some really cool stuff, and I'm gonna link to that all in the show notes. Joe Kowalski, poji Joe, I want to say thank you so much for coming on my friend.

Joe Kowalski 1:09:14
Hey, thank you so much. It's always a joy to talk to you.

Dave Bullis 1:09:19
Oh, thank you. And, you know, I appreciate at least one person wants to talk to me, but, but, but, thank you so much, Joe. No, it's really great. And honestly, man, I can't wait to see what you're gonna do next. And I also will introduce you to that guy who runs that film festival right now. I will shoot, I will make a Facebook message introduction and get you two talking.

Joe Kowalski 1:09:38
Thank you. That would be brilliant. I would really like to talk to him.

Dave Bullis 1:09:42
Sure, no problem, Joe. Joe, have a great day, and I will talk to you very soon my friend.

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BPS 422: The Unscripted Journey of Steven Bernstein From Cinematographer to Storyteller

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:38
I have my next guest, he has been the director of cinematography for such films as monster directed by Patty Jenkins, who just directed Wonder Woman, Kicking and Screaming, directed by Noah Baumbach, and Like Water for Chocolate, he's also been the director of cinematography for comedies like the Water Boy, Half Baked, Scary Movie 2, White Chicks. And he's on action films like Swat. And he also wrote a film a textbook called film production. And his latest films decoding Annie Parker and dominion have included actors like Aaron Paul, John Malkovich, Helen Hunt, just to name a few. And currently, he's actually teaching some really cool online and offline seminars, which, again, I'll link to in the show notes. We're gonna talk about a lot of really cool stuff on this podcast episode with guest Steven Bernstein. So Steven, just to get started, you know, you've done a lot of really amazing work. You've done a lot of work as a cinematographer, you know, starting in, you know, the the late 80s, and you've done all these wonderful projects. And I wanted to ask how you got to that point. I mean, that's sort of the, the impetus to a lot of interviews, and a lot of, you know, people who've, who've been able to really ascend up that, that proverbial ladder is, you know, how did you get to that point? So what I want to ask you, Steve is, did you just to sort of start this off? Did you go to film school, you know, to be a cinematographer, or did you do have a or did you have a completely different sort of entry way into this industry?

Steven Bernstein 2:15
A completely different entry way. I had wanted to be a writer and read or majored in a philosophy at university. When I came out, there were various job opportunities of different types, one of which was at the BBC training program, which I enrolled in and studied there as a writer, director, researcher, and worked in long form documentary, great because it allowed me to travel a great deal, which was an interest of mine then and I Got to go to China, Hong Kong, Philippines, Vietnam, South America, South Africa during apartheid, what was then Rhodesia, later became Zimbabwe. So a lot of adventures, a lot of really interesting shoots, and some great experiences, but not really that satisfying, and not as it turned out, my calling, I came back to London and continued working at the BBC. About the time that music videos became of interest, the first few music videos would be produced, and I got to shoot a few of those, and soon I was in demand, not as a director or as a writer, but as a what was called, then a lighting cameraman, a cinematographer, and shot a lot of really interesting music videos for some really, then very big bands in the in the 80s, Eurythmics and so. On, and that led to interest from others, and got into commercials. Worked with the great Tony Kaye, did some really important commercials with him, some of which won the Cong, Golden Lion da D award, and then I was kind of on the map. Still, my intention always had been to be a writer. So it's funny the way life works in that you tend to go with those things that are providing you income. Inevitably, you can have good intentions, but overheads, life expenses being what they are, you do what you have to do. So I was shooting, enjoying it, particularly the music videos and the commercials, but I was still writing plays, films, short films, some of which appeared on Channel Four in the UK. Some got on the stage in London, but really nothing that provided me any sort of success. And then along came Like Water for Chocolate, my friend Gabrielle barista, and had been offered the work completing that movie, which had run into a little bit of trouble, and he couldn't do it. So they asked me to go to Mexico and finish the film, which I did. It's a big hit in America, the highest foreign highest grossing foreign language film of all time to date. And I then came to America to see if there was work to be had here. And that led to all those studio films, those comedies with Adam Sandler, with the weigh ins and so on. And that in turn led to my meeting now the great Noah Baumbach, and starting an independent films in America. And that in turn led to Monster. So I've tried to compress what is now seeming a very long career into a very short period of time, but a happy series of accidents, doing what I never intended to do, ending up at a place I never intended to come to, and somehow working my way back towards my first intention.

Dave Bullis 7:04
Yeah, you know. And it's funny how it all sort of comes forth full circle, right? You start off with one intention, you have. You find yourself in all these new situations, but you took advantage of those situations, and, you know, you turn them all into opportunities. And now you're, you know, and now we're going, you're going back to writing. And I think there's something poetic in that, because I think as when we as filmmakers and and whether we're writers or directors, when we start our careers, you know, we have an idea of what it's going to be. And usually everyone has an idea that it's going to be. You know, you're going to make a movie at 22 you're going to win Sundance, you're going to make a million dollars, and then you're gonna move to Hollywood. And, you know, Steve, it doesn't really work out that way. It's a lot of zig zags towards that sort of path. And, you know, and it's just a that's why I do this podcast, because there's so many interesting stories like yours, where it's not just one way. In fact, with all these episodes of so many different ways of doing things, but, but the point I'm trying to make is, you know that that's the thing about the intention that we have, and how life sort of throws out all these obstacles, and how we respond to them, and how we you how we respond to them really dictates, you know, what course our life is going to go on.

Steven Bernstein 8:19
I think you're absolutely right, and it goes to great complexity that life offers us, which is, do we earn $1 do we do what makes us the maximum amount of profit all the time, or do we hold on to an individual dream and simply wait it out? It's very interesting, because I've done both. When I started, I made no apology to say that was kind of an opportunist. I was taking what was offered to me. And look, it was a fun ride. I got to, again, travel a lot, both first at the BBC and then doing music videos. I got to meet really interesting people, particularly in the 80s, and the bands we were dealing with and the concerts we were doing and the videos we were doing, all very, very exciting, but really it was the work that was offered, and I took advantage of that later when I went to make my first film at Decoding Annie Parker, I had seen other people try to make that same transition to director, and they tried to keep their day job as it were, and none of them succeeded. So I resolved that I would give up everything to do with cinematography. I would give up anything to do that didn't directly point me towards directing, and that's what I did. And sadly, decoding did not happen quickly. We were promised money, that money went away. We were promised other money. That money went away, and I spent nearly five years unemployed and went through all my savings and most of my possessions, and was in abject poverty on the day we finally got funded, and then went to shooting. So both courses interesting, I think ultimately, the latter one more painful. You sacrifice a great deal, but if you hold out for the dream, maybe you achieve it.

Dave Bullis 10:22
Yeah, and, you know, holding out for the dream. It's kind of like Sid Hague, you know, he, people once asked him about his acting career, and he had actually given up. He actually, you know, sort of went away for a long while, because he said every, every role that he was offered was basically he became in as a man with a gun. He came into the door holding a gun, or he came in, you know, he's already in the room with the gun. And what happened was he came back because, you know, he actually liked it and, and finally, he said, You know, I realize now he's in movies with Tarantino and Robert and Rob Zombie. And he said, You know, it's like Winston Churchill said, never quit. Never quit, never quit.

Steven Bernstein 11:00
I think that's absolutely right. And there's a great example of this that we know I mean Patty Jenkins, a dear friend of mine. Patty was the director of Monster, which I shot. The story is interesting both how our relationship began and how Patty built her career. I was shooting the big second unit on SWAT, 21 cameras, tons of effects. We're spending millions of dollars blowing up the front of the library in Los Angeles, crashing planes, shooting rockets into cars. It was everything I thought I dreamt of when I was a young cinematographer. And then after four months of that, I got a call from Clark Peterson, the producer of monster, and known for years the film was in some trouble in Florida, and he asked if I would read the script, speak to the first time director, and consider leaving SWAT and coming to Florida to shoot monster, and I read the script. I thought was great. I spoke to patty on the phone, and was struck by her intelligence, her sensitivity, her command of the subject matter and of herself. I just sensed that she would be a great leader. And agreed, and came down at 1/20 of what I was getting paid on SWAT arrived in Florida to this tiny little film that was underfunded, under equipped and in real trouble, and we began working together. And for me, it was a epiphany, because I saw people of absolute and genuine integrity, completely believing in the art they were undertaking to create. And Charlize was self sacrificing, and the role was agonizing and difficult for her, but she pushed through, as did patty and then, of course, monster, when we finished it, no one would buy it, which a lot of people don't know, Blockbuster would be the only people that would put forward a not very good offer, which was taken with the proviso the film would get a very limited theatrical release. And amazing to them, and I guess to kind of everybody, the film got spectacular reviews in the papers. Patty ended up along with Charlize on Charlie Rose, and then we went to Berlin, where Charlize won the Silver Lion, then a Silver Bear rather than the Golden Globe, then the Oscar, of course, and the rest is kind of legend. Right after that, Patty was offered pretty much everything from studios, and you or I, or I don't mean to speak for you, let's say someone like me would have taken that opportunity work on a studio, be paid a million or 2 million. I know what she's offered, but a lot. But Patty had a vision of what she wanted to do, and remarkably, and this goes to her character. She said, No, these aren't the films that I want to do. She wanted to a film about Chuck Yeager. She had some other projects that were interesting to her, and she was going to hold out, as I did on my film, for what she was waiting for and what she believed she'd be adept at doing and achieving. And waited and waited. Did some television pilots, very successful ones, the killing which she did a great job on. And then along came a Wonder Woman. And Patty said, yeah, here's a strong woman with a voice that I find interesting, a subject matter that I've always liked. I'm gonna make this film. And what did it do this weekend? I mean, it was spectacular. And it's not just the box office revenue we generated, look at the reviews it's getting. So that's Patty's remarkable. And I think in structural and structural journey,

Dave Bullis 14:54
You know, I once met Kane Hotter, and Kane actually said the best. Actor. Actress that he ever worked with was Charlize Theron, and he said she was, not only is she was she very nice to everybody, with no airs whatsoever, but he said when Nick time came, she was absolutely amazing every single take, every single day. He's like, she never did a bad take, not one time. And when you see something like Monster, it's, you know, because Charlize is a beautiful woman, and then, you know, She transformed herself with all the makeup, and she really became that role. You know, I had on a couple different acting coaches, and they said that was the secret of acting, is that you don't act like like you're a person. You are that person.

Steven Bernstein 15:41
I think that's spot on. And, you know, look, I have the remarkable distinction of being the one cinematographer that managed to make Charlize Theron look bad. So it's very, very special. And I'm very proud of myself, and Charlize was very proud of me, but she and I worked very hard on making her look bad. One that goes to her great courage. Because, look, an actress's beauty is in part, her commodity in Hollywood. And the fact that Charlize, like Patty before her, had such an integrity of vision that she was willing to sacrifice her commodity value from the pursuit of art goes to the person that she is. And secondly, you're absolutely right about the quality of Charlize performance, and she does this strange hybrid of method acting and more classical approaches. She knows the material. She's always off page. She gets it completely. She intellectually understands and engaged is with the topic and knows her character and the character's arc, but in the moment, she is a method actor, she is completely engaged. And as your acting coach, a person that you interviewed, said she became that character, we believe she was that person completely. You know, there's a remarkable thing that happened on Monster one day where there was a key moment when Christina Ricci and Charlie, Sarah, and the two characters were saying goodbye to each other at a train station, and they both had worked their way into this emotional high, this there was a sense of intensity. And if you know film sets, as I'm sure you do the crews, you know, just carry on eating their sandwiches and lying down their track and doing what crews do. But something remarkable happened this day, and the crew just sensed that they wanted to support Christina and Charlize and what they were pursuing. So the crew decided unilaterally not to speak that day, and the crew was communicating with each other with hand signals and with pointing and occasionally a whispered word, but it was dead quiet on that set for the entire sequence, and it was one of the most magical moments I remember in any film I've ever worked on This sense of synergy of all of us working together to support what we felt was the achievement of great art. And I think it facilitated those two performances in that remarkable film.

Dave Bullis 18:13
I mean, and see stories like that are just so interesting to hear. You know, just working with different actors over the years and seeing all the different methods and different approaches. And it's very interesting to see to the crew, you know, responding in that method of recruit, responding and being very, very receptive, and helping Charlize and Christina Ricci and doing something like that. It's just very interesting to me when, because, because you mean, you've been, you've seen a lot of sets, Steve, where the crew ends up in the crew and the cast, they end up becoming like a family, because you're spending, you know, days into weeks, into months, making this film. And it almost becomes like a child for everybody, you know, and and everyone's a team player, and they all want to see, you know, what's best for this project that they've worked for so long on.

Steven Bernstein 19:00
I think you're exactly right. And this is the thing I think that's most attractive about film, is you do acquire a family for a few months, or a few weeks, or one of the films I did in India for a year, where you're all under great pressure, but you're all mutually dependent on each other, and you're isolated from the rest of the world, and you feel somehow special, not special, as in entitled, but that somehow the way you are mediating the world is different from the way you mediate the world in the civilian or Non film world. So the camaraderie and friendships that are built on film sets, to me, are still singular, and my closest friends all come from film and the most intense experiences in my life, generally have occurred on film sets. And I must tell you, there's never been a film that I've worked on. However bad the film may have been where it wasn't, followed, at least for me, by a profound depression that would last days or weeks. And I think I speak for virtually all film crews and actors. When you walk away from your family and just say, Okay, this films done. I'm going back home. Now, home doesn't seem like home. The set was home. And there's a peculiar transition stage, which some people never get over.

Dave Bullis 20:35
You know, you're absolutely right, Steve, I've been on a lot of sets like that where it's almost, you know, it's, I don't want to use this expression, but I will. It's almost like a high. It's almost like this, this feeling, this energy, actually, energy is a better word than it's his energy that you feel. And, you know, you just sort of whenever, especially when everybody is is gelling together, and everyone's there and they're professional, and they're all working together. It's that, you know, you get that feeling and you want to, you know. And when you leave and the project's over, you sort of go home and you're like, What am I going to do now? I guess I better watch Netflix and order pizza, right? It's like, but you want that feeling again, so much.

Steven Bernstein 21:15
No, absolutely right, to the point where it's like, maybe high is better because you're like an addict. You'll be walking down the street and you'll you'll see another film shooting. You sort of wander over thinking that you might be able to pick up on some of that energy. Maybe they'll invite you to lunch, but it's a it's something that you that you absolutely miss when you're not doing it. And listen, that's one of the problems I have when I moved from cinematographer to writer, director and producers. That when I was a cinematographer, I would be doing sometimes two features, sometimes even three a year. I'd be working all the time, and I'd be on those film sets with my, with my friends, with my with my film friend family. When you're a director, when you're a writer, in particular, you're locked in a room, you know, with a computer or with a fountain pen and no friends at all, just writing and writing and writing, and it's not as much fun. I'm down with Dorothy Parker, who said, I love having written. I hate writing. Well, that's, that's kind of my view. I'm very proud of my last script in particular dominion, the one with John Malkovich, and I'm very proud of decoding and Parker and the next one coming up. But still, the process of creating those stories, those scripts, very, very hard and very lonely.

Dave Bullis 22:37
It is a very lonely process. And you know, I wanted to ask Steve, you know, when you've, you know, worked all these years as an accomplished cinematographer, and you, and you go back to your first love, which was writing. As odd as this question sounds, was there any skills that translated? Because I think there was. And here's the one I one skill I think that really translated well. Was you, you will obviously lensing all these wonderful films and like, like Monster. You know, how that you, you know, have, you have that image in your mind. You have that, that sort of mind's eye where you're saying, okay, I can imagine, you know, we're opening up on this mountain range, or, I imagine we're opening up on this sort of dark night, and we can barely see. I imagine that helps a lot with your exposition when you're writing scripts. Because when you're writing, you know, this, these action lines, I imagine they're, they're very, very well told, because obviously you know exactly what it's gonna look like. Because, hey, you're a cinematographer, you know, and you can bring all those years of imagery and seeing all these different things to your script. Am I right or am I? Am I completely off a Steve,

Steven Bernstein 23:46
No, you're spot on. And go to the very essence of my philosophy and understanding of film. What I discovered both from first my reading when I was a student of philosophy, and then later as a writer than as a cinematographer, is that everything to do with film is a language, and we have to understand what a language is. A Language is inevitably made up of two parts, that which we intend to mean and that which we present to create that meaning, or what I think the philosophers called the signifier, that which the audience sees, and the signified that which we mean, the idea that we're trying to present. As a cinematographer, you realize that when you compose a shot in a particular way, you can create a certain feeling in an audience. You can even suggest an idea. When you push a camera forward on a dolly, for example, into a face you're saying to an audience, hey, what this character is about to say or do is important. That's not in a script, but the camera movement is the signifier. The idea of importance is the signified. And then I began analyzing everything I did as a cinematographer, and. As a language. If I light with a backlight, that's the signifier. It's backlight signified mystery or uncertainty, an asymmetrical composition that is the signifier. The signified, possibly a character who's alienated, or a film like wait until dark, a character who's at at risk to edit a shot where you do an extreme close up, then go to a very wide shot where David Lean might have done you're saying, Oh, here's a person in a small little landscape. That's the signifier. The signifier is the insignificance of the human condition, perhaps, or the weakness of that individual at that moment. So when I realize all those things, I realize that everything I put in a written script is again a matter of what I signify and what it means, how it is indicated, and ultimately, what I'm trying to convey to an audience. But I also realized that not everything can be done with the spoken word, that sometimes the most powerful, although the most engratic elements, are not written but implied with the the photographic image. So as I write, I'm always thinking, is it better for the character to say this, or is it better to have the character say very little and imply something simply with a composition or a camera movement, or perhaps with the music or with the rhythm of the editing. If I begin to look at film as I suggest, everybody does, as a series of integrated languages, each with their own set of signifiers and each signifying different things, then I don't feel an obligation to put everything into a dialog, and the dialog can become more economical and more real, and the medium as a whole, integrating all these different processes becomes more effective. Does that make sense?

Dave Bullis 26:50
Oh, it makes perfect sense. You know, as you were describing, you know, your process, I was reminded of, there will be blood and There Will Be Blood the first 20 minutes, you know, there's no, there's no dialog whatsoever. It's a lot of of imagery. It's a lot of, you know, we see Daniel Plainview as he's coming down into that, into that pit, looking for gold. He doesn't find gold. However, he finds oil. And that becomes, he becomes that oil baron, oil tycoon, sociopathic businessman. But that first 20 minutes, there's absolutely no dialog. And when I first saw that movie, I was like, wow, this is a really bold choice. Because, I mean, I imagine the pitch meeting for that you say, if you're a pitch meeting on the first 20 minutes, there's no dialog whatsoever, you know, it's just kind of, you know it, but, but, you know, once you start getting into the movie, it's, I mean, I thought it was absolutely phenomenal. And, I mean, the only reason it lost best picture was because it was up against the No Country for Old Men. And, you know, I which is another movie, very heavy in imagery. Have you? Have you seen either those movies Steven?

Steven Bernstein 27:56
I've seen them both, and loved them both. And I would throw into that mix Terry malix films, Days of Heaven, which was the film, I think that inspired me more than any other to be a cinematographer. You know, malex characters relationship to nature and nature being indifferent. And again, the visceral effect that nature's power, sublime majesty and indifference to us as as living, breathing souls, is important. So in a terry Malik film, all the time, he's cutting away to shots of nature. Again, as you say, a pitch meeting or a description to some investor, you're saying, well, a lot of these shots won't have any obvious meaning or won't advance the story to the next plot point, but it'll be laden with meaning. It will make us understand how indifferent nature and a god or an absent God is to us, and how that should make us potentially feel. And he does that almost exclusively in Days of Heaven, with images, not with dialog, he's combining languages. My feeling is that as a writer and as a director, you don't write your film in spoken language exclusively. You write your film in five different languages like a very skilled linguist, and you combine those together to create meanings and choosing which language to use based on which is most effective and which goes to your audiences sensibilities.

Dave Bullis 29:29
You know, that's very true because, you know, as I've been, because I my first love is writing as well, and when, when I'm writing a screenplay, there's so many different pairs of eyes to sort of look at it through, you know, there's an editor's eyes, there's, there's, you know, the director's eyes. Sometimes you're thinking even in terms of being a producer, you know what I mean, and you're and you you're thinking of all these different of different ways and then, but when you're adding all these layers into your actual writing, you know, you're really, you know, because you're trying to sort of hook the reader, as they say, you know, hook the reader in the first couple of pages, but you have to hook them throughout the whole story. You're trying to always, you know, keep that tension in there. You're trying to figure you're sort of, you know, wearing a lot of different hats. You're doing a lot of different things at the micro and the macro levels.

Steven Bernstein 30:24
You're right, and it's very, very hard, particularly we start talking about producing, because, you know, the person or persons who may determine whether your film gets made may have never made a film, and may have no understanding of cinematic language, of what composition does camera movement. May not have seen a terry Malik film, may not have seen Paul Thomas Anderson film, may not have seen a Coen Brothers film. They may have read McKees book on story and take that template and apply it to your script. And if your script does not use that template. They may feel that your script is a failed one, and this is difficult for all writers and all artists to determine. Do you do what the orthodoxy in our film community suggests, or go giving you a better chance of getting your film made. Or do you protect your singular vision? Be it part of that orthodoxy or not, in the belief that you know better how best to express the ideas you hope to express. It's it's interesting because unlike other art forms, ours is so very expensive that there is a inhibiting element, and that's the one of finance people backing a film want to know their investment is safe, and therefore are looking for absolute metrics to determine what will make your film a good investment for them. They're not interested in your ideas about how to engage an audience viscerally with a composition. They want to know that if the rules of which they may be aware are applied, does that mean your film will succeed, and if it will, will they make more money? And that's a very difficult way to approach filmmaking.

Dave Bullis 32:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine, you know, we he and I were just discussing this as well, because, you know, he was a part of a film. The film was already, everything was casted, they were about to shoot, and then suddenly it just all went away. And he said, Dave, it's happened too many times in my career to count. And he says, it just, you know, it happens sometimes where, you know, the money goes away, and then there's been other times where he's been pitching a project for for years and years and years, and it's finally, you get a financier, and you can, you're able to finally find that money. I had seen obvious on this podcast, and he was discussing how he found the money for Dallas Buyers Club. And, you know, it was just one of those things where he had a connection from years ago who was willing to help him out, out of a bind. And it was, you know, one of those cases where your network really is your net worth,

Steven Bernstein 33:11
No question. I mean, you've got to build relationships and contacts, and then you've got to convince people to give you their money to make your film. And again, there's a natural conservative factor in all that, and that they don't want you to take a lot of risk, because they don't know that that will generate money for them necessarily. I mean, we all want the investor who says, just go ahead and make what you believe. But those are rare. Most investors want to get involved and say, Okay, we're giving you this money. What's our best way of guaranteeing this? Are you definitely going to have three acts, and are your plot points going to come on the right pages and all the rest of it? And again, that may or may not be the best way to write a script, but that's what they want, because that's what they've been told is the way to success, and that, as I say, could be very inhibiting for a writer, for creative artists. I'm sure that Terry may like doesn't work to that template, you know, I'm sure Charlie Kaufman doesn't work that template. I'm pretty sure that the Coen brothers don't, and they're some of the most successful, important filmmakers we have working. So these are some of the tough decisions that filmmakers have to make, particularly when you go to finance your film, because you want that money, but you also want to make a great movie.

Dave Bullis 34:26
Yeah, you know, absolutely. And I, you know when we when as because writing is my first love as well. And when we're writing these scripts, sometimes there's a tendency to write with that producers hat, because you're wondering, oh, would this be able to be, you know, will this be too much money? Will I be able to even obtain this, you know, stuff, you know, and that's sort of as I find writing the first dress, we have to kind of sort of brush that aside and just sort of focus on just telling the best single story possible that we can tell. And then later on, when you're maybe doing rewrites, or you're in different meetings, and you can sort of take things out and maybe add things in, you. Yeah, and then sort of, you know, the story sort of evolves, and it kind of ties in with what we were talking about before, where, you know, we set off in the beginning with these expectations that's going to go into a straight line, and then suddenly it's zig zagging all over the map and, and we're, you know, we're, you know, finding these obstacles. And we're, we're trying to turn these obstacles into either they can either set us back, or we can move forward with them.

Steven Bernstein 35:22
You make a great point. And I always try to write my first draft in seven days or less. And there's a reason for that. I call it a slot draft, not a first draft, because what I want to do is write so quickly that I don't have time to think so. First, there's the idea of just an intuitive understanding of character. But also I find that I write to know what I think that if I try to outline before I begin writing, the ideas are only are only notional. I really don't know my characters. I don't know my story that Well, I think I do, and I can try to plot it out, and I can draw all sorts of diagrams and put all sorts of index cards up, but it's not really fully realized. Then, if I take a different approach and simply start writing and say, I'm gonna write 120 pages in seven days, what I discover is that by the time I get to that last page, I have developed an understanding of character. I have developed an understanding of what the narrative should be, and I might even understand some of the subtexts. Then I go back and I begin the real process of writing, which is rewriting, but I couldn't have done that if I tried to make that first draft perfect, and you talked about wearing your producers hat. I think it's essential. I think you made a very good point that when you're writing, you're thinking of nothing except those characters. I don't care how long a dialog scene goes on for, or how outrageous what the characters say are or off, or if they begin in a Proustian fashion, talking about things that have nothing to do with the story at all. Because, in fact, that's what people do in real life, is talk about things that don't necessarily have to do with the advancement of their individual plot. And then when you write that version, that slop version, and look at it, to me, it is the door to all things, you come to an understanding of everything that's important about your film, and then you can put those things, those things in when you go back to rewrite. It's a crazy way of writing, but it works very well for me.

Dave Bullis 37:30
Well, you know, I actually think that's a very good way of writing, because even when I have, you know, started writing stuff in the past, and even now, sometimes when I sit down to start writing, one of two things happens. Number one is you get distracted very easily. I think as this happens to everybody, where you know your phone chimes, or somebody at your door, your friend calls you and says, Hey, Steve, can you help me move? I have to, you know, you take me to the airport. And the second thing is, you have paralysis through analysis where you're sitting at your desk, or wherever you're writing, and suddenly you're just kind of like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if, and you start brainstorming, and you're just, basically, you're just spinning your wheel, so to speak.

Steven Bernstein 38:13
No, exactly, right? And I think this is to me, it was a breakthrough. You know, I was so concerned with failing that I was preventing myself from succeeding. So when I was convinced ultimately that I should write badly, I sat down and wrote the worst script I possibly could, and when I was finished, it was truly terrible, but it pointed the way to a much better script, a script that was so good, this is what I did with dominion, that when I sent it to John Malkovich, he signed up immediately, and it was a low budget film. But John loved the writing of that script, because the dialog seemed so natural and so imaginative to him. If I had written dominion to an outline, my characters would have been speaking to deliver the next plot point, to get to the next subject, to keep the story moving along as it had been outlined. But the way I wrote to many was I simply had my characters talk about things that were important to them, and then went back on the next draft and then imposed a form on that and it was much more natural. The writing was much better, and it's a system that simply works. I say to all writers, and I have a lot of systems that work with me. Don't try to be perfect on the first draft, or don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Simply write as quickly as you possibly can, and then discover what you always meant to say and never realized it.

Dave Bullis 39:47
You know, I like that approach, Steve, where, you know, you gave yourself permission to fail, and you basically said, I'm gonna write the worst possible thing. You know, I was talking to another friend, a colleague of mine Jason Brubaker, And he had a theory about, you know, guys who always talk about making a film. They always, you know, and you've met guys like this, too, Steve, where they're always saying things like, Oh, I have this great idea for a film, you know me and my buddies, blah, blah, blah, but they never actually make it. And the and his theory, Jason's theory, was that the reason they don't make it is because if it does suck, if it is bad, it's a reflection of them as an artist, and it kind of encompasses their entire career in sort of one foul swoop. So if they do write a bad screenplay or make one bad movie. Well, you suck. You're never going to make anything. Do you know what I mean Steve?

Steven Bernstein 40:45
I know exactly what you mean. And I take just the majority of people, not just in film, but in life, most people would rather talk about something than do it. Most people rather criticize others than do it. Those who criticize and don't do are always safe because they can't possibly fail, and can always make clear how superior they are, because they can criticize that which you did look I, when I made dominion, a lot of people said, Oh, well, Stephen, you had trouble finishing it. There was some money issues, etc, all of which were true and those were resolved. But the thing is, I did it. Had I simply not done it and watched others, I don't know if I would have the sense of self that I have. I'm proud of what I've done. I've done it because I've taken risks. But you go to a very important point. If you want to make films, you have to make films, and if you're going to do that, it means you're going to take risks. It means people are going to criticize and ridicule you, and you may even fail. But I'd much rather do and fail than observe and criticize others.

Dave Bullis 41:56
Yeah, and that is beautiful, Steve, because honestly, that is so true. You know, I think we all have somebody in our lives, or we've known somebody that like that in our lives, where they don't want to actually do anything. They may talk a big game, or they constantly criticize what other people are doing and kind of like downplay it in that sort of condescending, sort of very almost like jaded type of attitude where they're like, Oh yeah, that you're gonna make a movie this weekend. That's cool. You know what I mean? They just like they and people like that. You know they never do anything. They're always just sort of criticizing others from the comfort of their couch. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Steven Bernstein 42:36
I completely know what you mean. And I look I pay tribute to anyone who takes a risk in their life of any kind. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't sometimes be safe, but you only, I think, have one life. You only have a few opportunities, and when they're presented to you, seize them. I know when we started decoding any Parker, we had spent a long time raising them on it, and I got a little bit of money from India, some from Canada. I was very lucky, and got the tax credit in California. And we were very, very close, within, like, $100,000 what we needed. And the producers all got the phone with each other, and we had to decide what to do. And at that point, Helen, haunted read the script and loved it, and had signed up for a very reasonable sum of money. We had Samantha Morton Helen, of course, won an Oscar. Samantha been nominated for two I had met Aaron Paul, and we had become fast friends. And Aaron Paul, who was at the height of his fame with Breaking Bad, had agreed to do it. Corey Stahl and I had gotten close as he had read the script, and we talked about the evolution of the characters, Rashida Jones, Bradley, Whitford, just this incredible cast we put together. And we were on the phone considering whether we should pull the plug because we didn't have quite enough money, and I ultimately decided that we would go ahead, and I realized it was a huge risk, and we nearly had to shut down. I think we did shut down for a day at the end of a week, and then we went and raised more money, and we managed to finish the film. Went on to win the Sloan award. The Hamptons had won Best Actress for Samantha Morton at Seattle, won the Milan Film Festival, two or three awards there, raised a couple of million dollars for charities, etc. We pulled it off, but there was a moment in that process where we had to decide whether to play it safe or to take a considerable risk. And I think those moments come often in film, because I think it was Hitchcock that once said that drama is life with the boring bits taken out. I would suggest that filmmaking is life with the com bits taken out. So it's a constant state of risk and near hysteria and certain failure. And from that you extract, hopefully. Be a film and a bit of a life.

Dave Bullis 45:03
And, you know, as we talk about your projects, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, when you started to actually go from that cinematographers sort of chair, so to speak, to being a director, you know, what were some of the things that you've picked up? I mean, because you've, you've had a lot of really cool directors, like Patty being the first example I can think of, you know, what were some of the things that you saw these directors were doing when they were talking to actors, or maybe even talking to you as a cinematographer, you know, and talking about, you know, a shot list. And here, and hey, Steven, here's my storyboard, you know, what are some of the the great things that they have done over the years that you sort of took into your projects.

Steven Bernstein 45:42
Well, it wasn't just pat, it was Jon Favreau. I worked with a couple of times, Jon and I are friends. Noah Baumbach, of course, I did three films with Noah Baumbach, which was fantastic. So I had an opportunity to work with lots of Taylor Hackford, of course, I mean, lots of other great directors, and I took something of value from each of them, certainly always grateful to my training at the BBC and always grateful to all my stage actors and what I learned there. But I learned, as I observed, about different management systems, different leadership methodologies and different ways of working with actors and with with crews. Noah and I, before we did both kicking and screaming and Mr. Jealousy and Highball, spent a lot of time prepping we were in Noah's place in in Greenwich Village, and we would go through the entire script, scene by scene, shot by shot, determining not only what we plan to shoot, but why we're shooting, what what the camera would mean. Going back to what I was saying before, about signifier and signified, again, wide shot or closed shot, Noah would show me clips from movies that he liked and said, this is very important to me, could we infuse this sequence with the same feeling from this film? I remember on Mr. Jealousy, he'd been much influenced by the French Nouvelle Vague, so we were using those kind of circular fade outs, and even the music that he chose was very much in that style. But also compositionally, the way the camera moved and the way I lit, it all had to be in the style of the Nouvelle dog. So that was exciting. That's what's so great about a collaborator like Noah, is that he had a very clearly determined vision of not only what his characters were, but stylistically, what he wanted to do. And that would be a great starting place for me to then run with some of my own ideas. I bring him books from painters or from designers or from other filmmakers, photographers for that period. So what about this? What if we did this, like this and so on, and we would integrate some of my ideas into his vision? Patty, I think I told you about her focus very much on actors. How Patty, at the end of every performance, rather than speaking to any of the crew, would drop the headphones and make a beeline directly for the actor. It doesn't matter what anyone else had to say to her. Her first point of contact after a take was those actors to tell them that they had been observed, that they're being protected, that someone is listening. Because that's what actors want most of all, is to know the actor be an experienced director or an experienced director. Those actors want to know that there's someone watching, protecting them, creating a rarefied, safe environment where someone's making sure that their performance is okay, and we'll tell them honestly if it isn't. And Patty really did that to a great degree. Jon Favreau, it was the atmosphere on set. It's kind of like he felt strongly that what happens on set somehow appears on screen. So his sets were fun and light, full of energy, full of comedy, and very, very gentle hand that everyone felt protected and facilitated, and again, that lent itself to what appeared on screen. Taylor Hackford, very, very well prepared and would cover things from every possible angle, knowing that whatever he planned, he knew that he might alter it in the cutting room, and wanted to make sure that he had plenty of material to cut that with. So for me, 30 years of observing some of the best directors in the world was a wonderful education for me, and it informs everything I do now. But was even better educationally, was watching some truly terrible directors get it wrong. And I got to watch that as well, and I'm not going to mention their names, but it helped me to know what not to do. So to accumulate all that knowledge and to be able to walk onto the first feature that I directed knowing what these great directors had done and what the bad directors had done, and what I should or shouldn't do was a huge help to me. It, it still is.

Dave Bullis 50:29
And you, you mentioned this too, Steven, you have 30 years of experience, you know, you you have, you know, started out as a writer. You became this accomplished cinematographer. You've won this just plethora of awards. You got to see all these great, sort of, you know, all these great directors, and all the things that they, they did, right and, and sort of put this all together for your own projects. But I know now you're, you're also doing some seminars, which, you know, you're, you know, gonna, gonna impart all this knowledge, which I think is phenomenal. So could you just, you know, talk a little bit about some of the seminars you have coming up?

Steven Bernstein 51:02
Absolutely, for years, really starting back to right about the time of that the BBC, I began teaching if somebody was a writer and wanted to know something about cinematography, because I had done both those things I was uniquely able to explain and a plain language for a writer or director what a cinematographer does, and then later, when I began directing, I could go into great detail to people about what each below the line crew member did. And when I was producing, I could explain to the investors why we needed money for different things, what the post production crew would be doing, what the on set crew would be doing, why we needed as many makeup people as we needed, and so on. So I was always teaching, and sometimes formally, I taught at the International Film School. In London, I had a film school of my own, and in the UK, in London, I set a film school up in New Brunswick in Canada. I've taught at universities including USC here and others all around the country, and I wrote a book about film production that covers all these things. And then finally, I just thought, you know, I should formalize this and make it available to a lot more people than I've made it available to in the past. So we're taking right now six of my most popular lectures, one on making the independent film, how you actually put together an independent film, how you find the money, how you use that money to shoot the film, how you take it through posts and get into sales and distribution? Another one about for stills photographers, because so many stills photographers have come to me and saying, hey, I want to be a cinematographer. I bought this camera. I've done stills work, but how is cinematography different from photography, and particularly with lighting? So I've done that so many directors and producers want to know about cinematography, how it works, so I I've running a course on cinematography for non cinematographers. And so many actors I've worked with, both on stage and on screen, feel uncomfortable when they first step onto a film set, and I wanted to run a seminar so that actors would know what it's like to come onto a film set, and what the assistant directors do, what the the first assistant directors do, what the the director wants, what the cinematographer wants. So, so all those things very useful for them. And then going back to something you and I talked about a lot in this, in this, in this discussion, is I wanted very much to run a course for writers so they would understand the technical aspects of filmmaking, and they could employ that in their writing to make them better screenwriters. So yeah, we set that up. We've got a website called somebody studios.com you can see all the seminars there. People can sign up, I think that they from the time they sign up, they've got a month to watch the individual seminar they've selected, or they can sign up for multiple ones. And the course has been very successful in the past. Not only do I teach the course, but then afterwards, I have a Q and A and we keep the lines open, and we make sure people have access to me in the future for advice. I want to help others, as I've been helped over all these many years, and I really very much looking forward to it, July the 15th. We go live with everything. So we're getting very close to that date. So I hope people go to the website, pick something out for themselves, and see what they might be able to learn.

Dave Bullis 54:53
And I will also link to link to the your seminars in the show notes, you know, as well as any other. Site you have Steven, and it's just great too, because it's something that I've learned over the years. Whenever I want to take a seminar or a webinar or read a book or a filmmaking book, one thing I always my one sort of barrier to entry to reading it or buying it is the person has had to have some kind of experience. I think you've also seen it, Stephen, where you sort of see a book in the in maybe in a Barnes and Nobles, or on Amazon, and you see that they're, you know, the person that wrote it has never written a screenplay or never actually made it, made a film. And you say to yourself, well, what would they possibly know about something that they've never done? It's, a lot like me teaching you how to build a car and then saying, Well, I'm not a mechanic, nor have I ever designed one. I see you. You've actually, you've been there, you know, you've done that. You've done it many, many times over 30 years. And you know, and again, that's why I was blown away by having you on this podcast. Because you know, you've, you've done I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, Steven half baked, I remember watching that movie on repeat over and over again, you know, growing up, because it was just absolutely hilarious. I mean, you've been able to sort of go in and out of, you know, comedy with half baked in Scary Movie two into Monster, which is more of a of a, not only as a drama, but it's also a personal introspective of the of these two women. Who are, you know, who are, you know, literal and figurative monsters, and then, you know, you now, you're doing your own projects, so it's always good to learn from somebody who's actually has gone out there and done it.

Steven Bernstein 56:33
Well, thank you. And I have done a lot of different things. I'm a producer now, a director, a writer, cinematographer. It's not to always been easy, but it's interesting. When you get to farther down the road, you realize how each of these things informs the other. I'm a better producer because I was a cinematographer. I'm a better director because I'm a writer and a cinematographer. And it's not just the films that have been made. I guess, in the last 18 months, I've been commissioned to write five other major feature films. It's been a very, very busy period for us. We have a TV series that's an advanced stage of development. And the reason I am now writing so quickly and so efficiently is that I'm borrowing from my other experiences as a producer, as a cinematographer, as a director, and I realize what I need to write and what I don't I understand what will work best and what works most efficiently, and it's a help. So look, if I can help others understand all these things based on my experience, I'm more than happy to impart it to them.

Dave Bullis 57:41
And you know, Steven, I know we're just about out of time. I want to again, say thank you so much for coming on and imparting your wisdom here for the past hour. And just in closing, where can people find you out online? You have any other social media links, and also you may, and just to give that seminar link again,

Steven Bernstein 57:57
Well, it's the key one to go to, and this links to pretty much everything to do with me is somebodystudios.com you can also find me, Steven Bernstein, writer, director online, and there's usually links to our courses or what's going on in my life there. Steve Bernstein, director, writer on Instagram as well. And of course, I say somebodystudios.com is pretty much available on all social media platforms, so we really hope that people might join us. Thanks

Dave Bullis 58:30
And everyone I will link to that in our show notes on the Dave bulls podcast. It's at davebullis.com Twitter, you can find me at dave_bullis. Steven Bernstein, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, sir.

Steven Bernstein 58:43
My very great pleasure. Was a great talk. Thank you so much.

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
This is a very important podcast, because we're going to teach you in this episode to how to survive a Sharknado. Now, Sharknado three is going to air on the Sci Fi Channel on July the 22nd this is going up the day before, but if you're a subscriber, it's going up about one to two days early, so you can get even even quicker preparation for battling this Sharknado. I know you're all very interested, so I'm gonna get right into it. And without further ado, here's the interview with Andrew Schaefer, author of How to Survive a Sharknado. Joining me today is Andrew Shaffer. Andrew is a humorist and New York Times best selling author who works include the great philosophers who failed at love the Goodreads choice semi finalists, 50 shames of Earl Grey's, oh, great tea. And sci fi is how to survive a sharknado and other natural, unnatural disasters. Uh, Andrew, how are you doing today, sir?

Andrew Shaffer 2:51
I'm awake. It's about 3pm here on the west coast.

Dave Bullis 2:58
So, very cool. Um, so could you just give us a little bit about your background, and you know how you got started as an author?

Andrew Shaffer 3:05
How I got started as an author? I've always sort of been, I was always into reading as a child, and I sort of thought that the natural thing then was to start writing, and I didn't, I don't think I realized early on that not everybody who, who reads books, you know, gets the inclination to also write them. It just felt like a very natural progression to me. But early on, as a child, I was very much into horror and science fiction, any type of mystery, any type of genre fiction, was really what I sort of devoured at the time. Then I took a little detour in terms of I went to college, where I studied at at the University of Iowa with with writers workshop students there, which is a very it's much more of a literary fiction sort of training. And I got into that for a little bit a while, but I found myself sort of gravitating more back towards genre fiction, young adult, just stuff that that that was sort of more entertaining, I thought. And that's kind of where I find myself right now. Is going from maybe sort of more of a literary non fiction books, moving more into genre, stuff like the How to Survive a Sharkndo,

Dave Bullis 4:37
Yeah, very cool. And that's a very important book, because we all know sharknados can happen. So I wanted to ask you, how did you actually pitch this book? I mean, did you actually pitch it to sci fi as as like you? Because I know in the book, you cover other of their movies too,

Andrew Shaffer 4:58
Yeah. I mean, the great thing about this play. So I watched Sharknado, the first movie, and I let my agent know I was like, if you know, if there's, like, a novelization or something, I'd love to do that. Of course, there wasn't with the first movie, but then she heard that Random House and the Sci Fi Channel were looking to do something with the second movie, some type of tie in. And they had the idea to do a survival guide, sort of like the Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks. And it was something that I did a so I don't think, I don't think originally, you know, they thought, really thought of me, because I wasn't writing any type of genre stuff at the time. I just had parody come out, though, 50 shames of Earl gray. So they kind of said, well, you kind of do the humor writing. And I did a sample for it. They ended up liking it, and asked me to write the book then. So it came together pretty fast. I had to watch about, I don't know it was like 30 or 40 different sci fi movies to to actually write the book and sort of ties them all together, sort of in one universe.

Dave Bullis 6:10
Okay, excellent. So you know when, when you did actually pitch to sci fi? Were they really open to using all their other movies as well?

Andrew Shaffer 6:18
We had a list to go off of. I mean, I had some that I wanted to use that we weren't able to but they had a list of, you know, somewhere, probably about 50 or 60, that they had licensing that we could work with. And then there was just so much that we're off limits. So it was basically I had to go with what they gave me, and then sort of narrow it down from there. And then we actually ended up creating a bunch for the for the guidebook. So there's about 10 or 12 in there. I think that that are actually unique and original to the book.

Dave Bullis 6:51
And what's cool is because if you haven't seen all the sci fi movies, you can actually go through and try to figure out which ones are created and which ones are actually real movies?

Andrew Shaffer 7:02
Yeah, that's, that's the funny thing. I've had some people pick up the book and go, How did you come up with some of this crap? I'm like, I didn't. It's just, you know, you can actually go. They're like, there should be a movie about this. And I'm like, well, guess what? You know, you you can go see a Corona conda movie. And it's pretty amazing.

Dave Bullis 7:24
So could you elaborate, you know, on some of the monsters that you wanted to use, but you couldn't?

Andrew Shaffer 7:32
I don't, I don't even really remember exactly which ones we couldn't use offside my head, but I know that, you know, there were, we had to sort of narrow it down to, to what, what was sort of, we didn't want to have, like, like 30 different shark based ones, you know. So there were some, but we used use most of the, the big Sci Fi Channel movies that that they've done that were kind of hits, like shark to pus and coronaconda and stuff, even stone eight. Oh, so it was, so it was, it there wasn't really a lot that was left on the cutting room floor I'd say,

Dave Bullis 8:16
Okay, interesting. So, you know, so when you're you're writing this book, and you're piecing this all together. Did you actually watch each individual movie and sort of make a list and make a lot of notes on each

Andrew Shaffer 8:27
Oh my gosh, yeah, I had to watch every, every movie that we included 3,4,5, times to really pick up everything that was going on and kind of look at different angles and stuff so, so it was, really, I approached it sort of like I did my non fiction books, which was just a lot of research, and then I had to try to figure out scientific explanations for how some of this stuff happened in the real world. And, you know, they're that's not something they're thinking about really. When they're making the movie, they're thinking, make something entertaining, but to write it down in a book, I was like, I need to come up with reasons why, you know, sharks can survive when flying around inside of a tornado. You know, how, what? How do I make that sort of believable? And so I, like, talked to like a marine biologist for that. And I was like, How did you know, is this, you know, not, could this happen, but, but what's a logical way to make this, you know, happen?

Dave Bullis 9:30
So when you, when you interviewed that marine biologist, did he or she know what Sharknado was before you talked to them?

Andrew Shaffer 9:37
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. The biologist spoke to she was a, she was a huge fan of these sci fi movies, actually, and and was, you know, really thrilled to answer my questions and stuff. She's like, she's like, we really love them. They're, you know, they're, I don't want to say, use the word terrible. I forget what. Word she used. But I mean, they're just, they're just entertaining. You can turn your mind off while watching them. And you don't have to worry about the scientific stuff behind it. They said this just, just for pure, you know, entertainment value,

Dave Bullis 10:22
You know, I was just, you know, when you brought that up, I was actually wondering, you know, if, if she hadn't heard of that, and you just went, you know, you know, could a shark and a tornado come together, and she would have been like, could you get this crazy man out of my office, please?

Andrew Shaffer 10:36
I know. I know. Yeah, so, yeah. So, some of that stuff we you know, was, was a lot of fun to sort of research, you know. And then there's other stuff. I mean, I think there was one movie that I watched that I watched it probably 10 times, and I couldn't figure out anyway, not only to make the science work in real life, but I couldn't figure out how the science worked in the movie. I was like, this movie doesn't really make much sense. And I was like, probably gonna cut this one out of the pocket.

Dave Bullis 11:07
So, you know, you know, you, you know, you wrote this book during the and it coincided with the release of Sharknado two. So, you know. So now, with Sharknado three coming out, you know, I wanted to ask you, what are some of your expectations about Sharknado three?

Andrew Shaffer 11:26
You know, I really didn't have any expectations even for the second Sharknado, because I hadn't, hadn't seen it at a time, or read the script or anything. So the second one itself was kind of a surprise. I kind of, you know, had an idea of that it would kind of be a little bit more meta than the first one, and it was. And so the third one I, you know, I was, I'm kind of hoping it goes a little bit back to basics, but which is, you know, really taking the concept as seriously as possible. I think it's something that, once it gets to meta, it becomes, if everybody's in on the joke, you know, then then the joke itself isn't that funny anymore. So I kind of like see a little more serious but, but I don't really know what direction they're going to take it. Yeah, I want to say a more personal Sharknado film. Maybe that's where you have to reboot the franchise.

Dave Bullis 12:31
Yeah, I really want to see a more like David Lynch a Sharknado film, you know. But, but yeah, you know. I completely agree with you on that point. I, you know, I also noticed that in the second one there was a lot more celebrity cameos. Like, pretty much, you know what I mean. Like, every time they went somewhere, there's a new celebrity. I hear now, there's, like, even more celebrities in Sharknado three.

Andrew Shaffer 12:57
Oh yeah, it's everybody wants it wants to, you know, be in on it, be in on the joke. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's a situation where the celebrities are just contacting them and say, I'll work for no money or something, and they're like, how can we refuse that? You know, they really can't say, you know, if David Hasselhoff wants to be in your movie or something, they for no money. It really can't say no to that. It's not like they're courting these celebrities. I don't think so. I mean, yeah, I think it's just gonna have, it's definitely gonna have more celebrity cameos. If you tried to play a celebrity cameo with drinking game or something with Sharknado two, you would have died. I mean, there were so many that are coming so fast, you didn't even know, you know, you couldn't even tell who was an actor, who was a celebrity. You know, it was, it was it came pretty fast and furious.

Dave Bullis 13:52
It did. And I think you're right too. I think there might have been called people who who attempted to do a drinking game, and the results probably weren't so well for them. So you're jumping back to your book, you know, in the chapter, you have an entire, you know, chapter, obviously, just to Sharknado. So, you know, I have to ask the question is, you know, how do you survive a sharknado?

Andrew Shaffer 14:18
How do you survive a sharknado, a lot of people said, just don't watch it. But I mean, I mean, the simple answer of, you know, how do you survive a Sharknado is, as some people think, Oh, well, I survived. I survived by, you know, going to the basement, same way I'd survive a tornado, which really doesn't work because a lot of times during a sharknado, you also have associated flooding with that. The only way to really escape it is to just drive as fast as possible out of town, which, if you're in LA or someplace else where there's going to be a bunch of traffic jams or something, that's just not going to be part. Possible. So, yeah, there's, there's really no good answer that you know. The answer in the book is, you know, Stand and fight. You know, grab a chainsaw, grab whatever you can instead, you know, and and fight back when these things fly at you. So, you know, but I, but personally, I'm, I'm not, like, a survivalist or anything. I mean, I had to research survival stuff for the book. But I don't, you know, I'm so bad about falling in real life, you know, I'm like, I don't have, like, a natural disaster kit. I don't have, you know, three pallets of bald water stored up here, which I probably should, after reading that New Yorker article on earthquakes on the Pacific Northwest this week. So,

Dave Bullis 15:51
Yeah, I read that same article. Apparently, in 50 years, Seattle is just going to be nothing.

Andrew Shaffer 15:57
Yeah, yeah, Seattle is going to get the worst of it. I think Portland, where I'm at is, you know, it's, there's gonna be some, some stuff fall off the wall or something. I don't know. It's not that. It's not gonna be too bad in Portland. I don't think,

Dave Bullis 16:12
Yeah, and just case anybody doesn't know what Andrew and I are talking about, I'll link to that in the show notes so you can read up on that. And then, you know, get scared to death. Be like, Oh my god. So, you know, Andrew, I've had some some fan questions come in, if you don't mind answering a few Sure. So the first question I received was, Andrew, what was the most unstoppable monster that you researched for the book?

Andrew Shaffer 16:39
The most unstoppable monster was the ghost shark, because there's just really no good way to stop a ghost like, like, there was actually a movie too, with, with the guy from bowl, from Night Court. I was in this movie, and it this shark appeared, manifested anywhere there was water. So it was in a swimming pool. One came out of a toilet, another came out of a bottle of water, and there was no way to get away from it anywhere you went. I was just like and it never got full of eating people. So it just went around and around us, eating people and stuff. And I'm like, how do you stop this thing? And I'm trying to think of, you know, there you basically, it's, you have to do some elaborate ghost trapping or something. But, but really it was like, it was like, on, on, on, you know, on a one to one level, you know, an individual level. There was nothing you could do to stop it besides find the, the whatever talisman it was in the movie. So, yeah, it goes straight, pretty frightening stuff.

Dave Bullis 17:59
Now, see, I'll check that movie out because I had no, no idea that was actually a real movie.

Andrew Shaffer 18:04
Oh, my God, it is amazing. Just, just the number of number. There's, there's this amazing bikini Car Wash scene where, where the ghost shark materializes out of a bucket of water. It's, it's just crazy.

Dave Bullis 18:26
So, you know, a follow up question is, Andrew, are you playing on writing a sequel to the book?

Andrew Shaffer 18:34
No, no. And basically, I think, you know, I don't know what else I could say about sharknados, or actually, about most paranormal threats or supernatural stuff like that, but, but I am working on another book that will hopefully be sort of along the similar lines as far as horror goes.

Dave Bullis 19:01
Oh, very cool. Could you tell us a little bit about it, or you want to keep it hush hush?

Andrew Shaffer 19:06
It's like super hush hush, right now.

Dave Bullis 19:08
Okay, so All right, then our on to the next question. We had come in from Michelle the trainer, who was a big fan of the show. Is Andrew a scuba diver, conservationist? Or so? I'm sorry, that was the first part of the question. Sorry, I was just reading a reading, reading. So are you a scuba diver? Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 19:30
No, I'm not. No, no, I've never gone scuba diving.

Dave Bullis 19:33
And the second part of that was any plans for sharktopus?

Andrew Shaffer 19:40
Well, like survival for the sharktopus. Yeah. So the shark to pus is in the book, but in terms of this year's new movie coming out, Sharktopus versus Whale Wolf, which is the third sharktopus movie, And which are which? Again, if you haven't seen the Sharktopus movies, those are phenomenally entertaining as well, but in terms of how to survive a Sharktopus again, it was like, I started to write some some of these, and I was like, the best thing you can do is just to to move as far away from the coast as possible. Because a lot of these threats in the book that I wrote about were all like, sort of water based threats. And I'm like, unless you like, live in Florida or LA or something, or along the coast, you're fine, but then you get inland, and then I said, then you find yourself in Nebraska. And I mean, I don't you, I don't know. So,

Dave Bullis 20:55
So the next question that came in was, if Andrew was going to create his own sci fi monster. What kind of monster would he create?

Andrew Shaffer 21:05
Well, I think that what kind of monster I would create. I had an idea for one that was not used in the book, and it was called a wolf Blizzard, which was a pun on the CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, and it was just a blizzard of wolves. And that actually got rejected for the book, because they were like, it's, it's the pun is too far. Like it's, they're like, there's like an there's like a line that we would never go past, and you just passed it. And I was like, oh my god, I can't believe I found the line where you will not cross so, but I would still like to I was like. I was like, I'm gonna go write this script.

Dave Bullis 21:55
So for all the aspiring writers listening to this, Andrew has just shown you the line in the sand that Sci Fi Channel will not cross.

Andrew Shaffer 22:04
Yes, yes.

Dave Bullis 22:08
So Andrew, I wanted to ask right now, you know, what are your future plans on publishing? I know there's a project that's very hush hush, but is there any other projects you're working on, or anything else you could tell us about right now?

Andrew Shaffer 22:20
Yeah, I'm also working on a on a young adult novel that that's something I've been working on for a while. I've got a few things that are like in the pipeline, but it's just like, you get a fun, you know, find the right sort of place for them, at a publisher, or either self publish it or whatever, and just got to wait for sort of the stars to align. And until that happens, I don't have any good news to announce. It's kind of boring, like it's something my mom calls me all the time and says, Oh, when's your next book coming out? And I'm like, I don't know. You'll be the first one to know. Don't worry.

Dave Bullis 23:01
So Andrew, I wanted to ask you too, you know, your book, Sharknado, was on sale. Is it still on sale right now?

Andrew Shaffer 23:09
Yeah, as of today, it is for us for like, $1.90 book. I don't know how long the sale is going to last, though.

Dave Bullis 23:15
Okay, so when this is up, you know, hopefully I will link to Andrews book in the show notes, hopefully it'll, if it's not on sale, it's still a relatively good buy. And I guarantee you it's, it is, you know, it's entertaining. It's hilarious. And, like, Look at me. I've learned a lot about the Sci Fi Channel movies because I'm, you know, I've known about ghost shark today.

Andrew Shaffer 23:36
Yeah, it's a value at any price, you know. And the book is like 40 megabytes because it has a bunch of drawings in it. So, you know, that's about 20 times the size of another file, download for a regular prose book. So, I mean, you know, that's what a deal, right? Yeah?

Dave Bullis 23:56
Because when I was flipping through it, I went to, obviously, I went to the Sharknado chapter. And greeting me is a, you know, a black and white hand drawn picture of a shark. Nano, right,

Andrew Shaffer 24:07
Right, right. I mean, and the book's got recipes, you know, excerpts from classic literature that I have completely trashed, such as Moby Dick. So, yeah, it's got a lot of stuff in there.

Dave Bullis 24:24
It's got something for everybody. So, you know, in Andrew, in closing, you know, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted to mention, or any, any, you know, closing thoughts or final thoughts?

Andrew Shaffer 24:38
No, my mind is, my mind is completely blank I do in like this meditation class right now. So I'm learning to sort of wipe away all thoughts in my mind. You know, normally I would have 100 things to talk about right now, but right now it's just like it's, I'm I'm learning to zone out and go blank.

Dave Bullis 24:59
All right. Andrew, where do you find you at online?

Andrew Shaffer 25:03
Oh, my goodness, anywhere. Twitter, Facebook, Google, you know, all someone has to do is Google my name. Andrew Shaffer, S, H, A, F, F, E, R, as long as they spell it right, they can find me, you know, which is, you know, kind of disturbing, but I'm all over the place,

Dave Bullis 25:25
And I'll make sure to to link to all that in the show notes too. I'll link to your website and your Twitter.

Andrew Shaffer 25:31
You don't you don't have to just make them work for it. Work for it. Okay?

Dave Bullis 25:35
I will not link to Andrew's info in the show notes, so you will have to work for it, then it'll be the first time. But I will not, I promise you, I will not link to that in the show notes. But Andrew, want to say thank you very much for coming on again everyone. It's how to survive a sharknado and other unnatural disasters that it's I will link to the, I will link to this and the show notes, but it's right to the Kindle version. And is there a physical version of this book too Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 26:03
There is. There is because, you know, once, once a sharknado or some other type of disaster hits, you need the physical version. You know, you can be able to charge your phone or whatnot. So, you know, I always advise people to get the e book and the physical version and just being on the safe side.

Dave Bullis 26:22
See, that's why you're the publisher, because that's that. That is forethought, my friend, yes, yes, you won't have That's right. So, you know, the physical the the ebook I have, you know, if it does, the power goes out, I won't be able to find it. So honestly, look into the physical version now too. Yeah. So Andrew, I want to say thank you so much for coming on everyone. The book is how to survive a sharknado. Andrew, thanks again for coming on and again. Feel free to, you know, drop me an email anytime, and I'd love to have you back sometime.

Andrew Shaffer 26:52
Yeah, great time chatting with you, Dave.

Dave Bullis 26:54
Oh, you too, my friend. Take care everyone.

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BPS 420: Out of Time and the Back to the Future DeLorean Documentary with Steve Concotelli

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Alex Ferrari 1:18
How are you doing, sir?

Steve Concotelli 3:30
I'm doing just fine. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 3:32
Thank you, brother. Thank you, man, thanks so much for being on the show. I'm a huge fan of your movie out of time. And you know, I'm obviously a huge fan of Back to the Future. And I thought this would be a beautiful melding of, of not only geeking out because we are going to geek out in this episode a bit, but also discovering how you made the movie and went down the road and your Kickstarter your distribution plan and get to the nuts and bolts of actually making the movie but while we geek out a bit. So what gave you the idea of making out of time? Like how did you even wake up one morning go? I'm going to make a movie about restoring the DeLorean?

Steve Concotelli 4:11
Well, it's interesting. It started back in 2011 when Universal Studios first announced that they were going to restore the screen use Time Machine. And at the time to give a brief history at the time the screen just car had really started falling apart. You know it had been out at the Universal Studios backlog for 30 years. It was not in great shape. And so universal and Bob Gale made the announcement they were going to restore it. And I was fortunate enough to be very close friends with Joe Walzer who was the superfan in charge of the restoration. And so here you had this phenomenal year long restoration project that was going to kick off. And you know, I said well, is anybody filming this is you know, is anybody going to turn this into a movie because fans would love to see the nuts and bolts of this restoration and it turned out nobody had any plans. Do it. And so, you know, I kept asking who's doing this? Who's doing this? And finally just kind of dawned on me like, Oh, crap, I guess it's gonna be me then. Right? And and so I took it upon myself to just start documenting the entire restoration in the hopes of possibly turning it into a film, which we then did.

Alex Ferrari 5:19
And now How did you get Bob Gill and universal involved and actually get them to say, Hey, you, you're official, we give you the stamp of approval.

Steve Concotelli 5:30
That was a very, very long and nerve wracking process and beyond. Well, yeah, because I didn't work for Universal Studios. And so, you know, when I started shooting it, it wasn't exactly, you know, done with official authorization, I'll say that much. It was done. I was part of the restoration team, I was documenting it. And that was fine. But you know, turning it into a film is something that was entirely next level, like when you work with a studio, there's approvals and IP and licensing, and there's a lot of things that back then I had no concept of

Alex Ferrari 6:01
And they are not. And Back to the Future in the DeLorean. It's fairly popular IP.

Steve Concotelli 6:07
Yeah, that's the among their most popular intellectual property. And so we did it very slowly, and very methodically. And essentially, what it boiled down to is Bob Gale. Now, now Bob, is the CO creator of the Back to the Future trilogy, you know, he wrote them produce them, and he is the Godfather, even to this day of all things back to the future. So if any product, anything back to the future, gets approved, it goes through him, he's the authority. And luckily, Bob was spearheading the restoration, he was directly in charge of it. So as the restoration progressed, I got a chance to meet Bob and know Bob, and we put together halfway through the restoration, we did like a little five minute, here's what's going on with the restoration update that Bob hosted. So I shot footage of him. And we got to know each other and kind of test the waters to see what kind of reaction you know, the restoration footage would get. And, and, but yeah, and then, as we progressed and got further and further into filming, you know, it became clear like, Look, I really need to get some official endorsement from Universal. Because, you know, by the time a year long restoration was done, and then say a year of an interview, as I was two years into a project, I wasn't even sure I could produce legal. And like, oh, boy, what are we going to do? So Bob, sat me down with universals licensing team, their marketing teams, to to essentially essentially make a pitch for me to say, Look, he knows what he's doing. He's been doing this a long time. And, you know, basically, Bob gave me his official endorsement. But even then, I don't think universal was quite on board until 2015. I mean, that's three, three years that I wasn't sure. And then that's when they asked me to possibly put together something for the 30th anniversary blu ray that came out, you know, and they said, Can you do you have enough footage that you can cut together? Maybe a 15 minute feature out? I said, Sure. No problem. And I'm sure Universal Studios was afraid that, you know, I was just going to make them look terrible, because the shape of the car. And then I sent them a quick cut. And they saw it and as soon as they saw my movie, as soon as they saw they, they're like, okay, we totally get it. We're totally on board. Because it's it's not about blame. It's not about you know, oh, criticizing this party. It's not about fans being you know, sniping at each other. It's about celebrating this great car and everybody coming together to get it restored. And yeah, once they saw all their fears were gone. This Yep, will license this. You can have access to everything you need. I got all the proper permissions and all that stuff. And we were off like a shot but but it was I want understated, it was three years of very nervous, is this going to happen? Because all it would have taken was one phone call from universals legal department and boom, the whole film would have been shut down. And this is you know, after two and a half years of my time. So it was it was a it was a tough long road that I'm sure a couple other any filmmakers out there understand

Alex Ferrari 9:01
Oh, yeah, i know a few.

Steve Concotelli 9:03
Yeah, you know, and it, it could have easily broken the other way. And yeah, I had more than a few sleepless nights, sleepless months about that, to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 9:12
So Bob Gale was basically you were Donnie Brasco, and Bob Gale was alpa Chino. Yeah. And he's just he's the He's fine. He's with me. Work. Yeah. So he got you in the door, but it was your work that kept you in the door.

Steve Concotelli 9:25
Correct. I mean, Bob. Yeah, that's exactly what it was he he opened the door and he wouldn't have gone to bat for me if by then I hadn't already proven myself as a professional. You know, and the story I was trying to tell and yeah, you know, once universal saw it, they they embraced it. So definitely, but it took a lot of convincing and a lot of baby steps. And, and boy, you could do a whole episode just on the difficulty of trying to license intellectual property from a studio because, like, like, I'm a fan. Like when I started this movie, I truly had no idea of what it took to make a movie like this because I'm sure a lot of your listeners are thinking, Oh, you make a movie with the time machine, you go and shoot your footage, and you own it. So you just go and go and make a movie. But it turns out not to be the case. Because the car is owned by DreamWorks, or, you know, a subset of universal for it, the intellectual property, and then Universal Studios owns the film rights, and then you have to get approvals from you know, the producers and any actors that appear in the footage. And, and I had no concept of how to do any of that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 10:26
Let me ask you a question, though. And this is just a this now we're getting into a little bit of the weeds as far as legal and documentary is concerned. But documentaries do have a lot more leeway than narrative do in the sense that like, you know, I can remember Fahrenheit 911 where, you know, Michael Moore was basically ripping apart the the president of the time, George Bush, and he was using him in his documentary, and he was he didn't get any obviously didn't get any permission for that. How does it work? Why can't you just document something and release it to a certain extent or not?

Steve Concotelli 11:00
Well, I bet if I wanted to put it on YouTube, I probably could have gotten away with it, but I wanted to release it and try to make money off of it. And that's, that's an entirely different ballpark. Because if you're trying to monetize somebody else's intellectual property, that's, that's the line you you have to have legal permission for. And, and to be honest, you know, like, I was getting to know, Bob and I have tremendous respect for universal. I wanted to do it the right way. You know, I, I wanted Universal Studios to endorse the film and, and, and be a part of it and not fight against it. And, you know, I did, I didn't want to just try to release it as like a fan documentary, I wanted their stamp of approval so that the world would know, like, Look, universal, has declared this the official time machine documentary, and, you know, it's, it's quality content. And, and thankfully, that's what happened. And yeah, and the blu ray in 2015 really kind of jump started that because once once I had a little 15 minute feature at on the official blu ray, I was an official part of the franchise and that right, and that helped that but I, you know, it's still involved, you know, licensing and paperwork and attorneys and title clearances. You know, I mean, even even the title of my film, which is out of time, like the Time Machine license plate, even that was like, when I started Can I use that? Is that owned by somebody does universal own that does the DMV on that? Who do I have to ask? And you know, all these questions had to go down this infinite rabbit hole of minutia and felt like okay, you somebody universal said it was okay, I use this, you know, and it's just, it's, it's so far out in the weeds when you're producing these indie Doc's that it just it boggles the mind. You spend like 75 or 80% of your time dealing with things that have nothing to do with making your movie, as I'm sure you can attest.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yes, absolutely. No, I was, I was working on a show for Hulu, and the characters that the ads director and the producers wanted to get some universal characters on some t shirts, like yeah, like that they live. And the Brian Frank glasses. Yeah, exact because the whole show was about the whole episode of that series was about guys putting eyeglasses so it was kind of like a wink, wink, nudge nudge. And they got it. You know, they it was, it was fairly simple, honestly, to get a right to get the they live logo or whatever. Put on a T shirt. And you have to make it yourself. It has to be custom. You can't sell the T shirt. But it was but it did. There was some paperwork. And then there was a back and forth and they wanted some other people that like, yeah, we kind of own that one. But it's also a quarter owned by somebody else. Exactly. So you might have to go somewhere else. So exactly like you're talking about, like the DeLorean his own partly by DreamWorks or Spielberg at that point, right?

Steve Concotelli 13:45
Yeah, it's, it's a subset of one of the conglomerates and somebody, you know, the appropriate person at the appropriate subset company had to have an email that says, you know, yes, we authorize this, you know, and again, they don't know who I am. I'm just a fan trying to make a film and, and studios, and rightfully so are very leery about, you know, fans saying, hey, I want to make a movie about your movie. Let me use your IP or your footage. Sure. And And so yeah, it's uh, I'll say this. If you're making a unique documentary about something like unrelated, go for it. But to make a feature Doc, about a very famous feature film is among the most difficult and dumbest things you can try to do. Well, there was a movie. The the shark, the shark.

Alex Ferrari 14:28
Shark is still working. Yeah, you're still working, which was legendary, because it took forever for it to come out. Like they had interviews with Roy Scheider before he died and, and they had Spielberg they had Dreyfus they had everybody and universal was like, I don't know and this is where everybody was like, when is this coming out? I remember that. And finally, it got released like on the 30th anniversary or whatever. 40th anniversary Yeah, release on a DVD somewhere and we finally get to see it, which was a great doc but What a one thing saving, but you were better?

Steve Concotelli 15:04
Well, I appreciate it. But I think they had the same thing to where, when the anniversary of jaws came around the studio was looking for content that tied into that. And here, you know, these fans had essentially made this entire film for them, like, oh, why don't we just give them the okay to release that, you know, and, and my situation on out of time was kind of similar. Were back in 2011, when the restoration started, and I started shooting footage, I was already thinking, look, in three years, they're probably going to do a 30th anniversary release. And then they're gonna want some of this content, right. And sure enough, you know, in 2015, universal called, hey, we're thinking about a blu ray, do you have something? I'm like, I got you covered. Believe me.

Alex Ferrari 15:48
I've got so I'm looking at your blu ray as we speak, sir. Yeah, I've got that. 30 that aversary.

Steve Concotelli 15:55
Yeah. And I have a nice little out of time feature right on there, which, you know, is a fan is no, I think that's something that I did completely by myself, like my own time. With my own crappy camera editing it on my own crappy home edit system is on the official back the future blu ray, like behind Doc Brown is mind boggling. I still can't believe it. But it happened.

Alex Ferrari 16:17
Now you you also started a Kickstarter campaign. And you knew you'd launch the Kickstarter game, which was fairly successful. It was very successful, actually. Yeah. Now, how did you prep and launch the Kickstarter campaign? Because I've had, I mean, I did my own crowdfunding campaign for my feature film. And but you know, this is it could be a beast, but you also have you also had a, a wonderful audience to tap into. So how did you prep it and launch it?

Steve Concotelli 16:47
Well, Kickstarter is its own separate nightmare. I'll just start by that. All right, Kickstarter, for all the people who think Look at all that free money. Now, if I had simply gone to work every day, and work a regular job, I would have made far more money. That's a simple true, amen. And Kickstarter is a nightmare. And even like, your worst fear with Kickstarter is that you won't succeed. Your second worst fear is that you do succeed. Now, why is that? Why is that? Well, because if you're wildly successful, suddenly, you know, like, I found myself with 600, bosses, all demanding, like, when is this going to be done? We know when, when or what are you doing what's going on. And it was like having 6600 managers emailing me all the time, asking questions, and vast majority were great, but you do get some squeaky wheels. And I was very, very sensitive, because first, I wanted to have a good Kickstarter. But second is that I didn't want anybody bad mouthing me to Universal Studios. Because whether whether I accepted it or not, by having this film, and Bob Gale was in my Kickstarter video, so by having by having his endorsement, I, whether I like it or not represent Back to the Future. I represent the franchise and I represent the studio. And I took all that very seriously. So every time I would answer a question or deal with the public, I did it professionally straightforward in the most kind of corporate appeasing way that I could, because the last thing I wanted to do was to have you know, Bob, get some angry email from a family who is this? Who's the Steve guy? And what's he doing? And he's running Back to the Future like that would have been the death of my film. Right. But but to backtrack, and in terms of what we did, we, we set the bar, our goal for the film was $25,000, which I thought was pretty reasonable. And I didn't think we'd hit it. And Joe Walzer, who is the head of the restoration, and he's the main guy in the film, he was very involved in one thing Joe does aside from making time machines is he's a master at marketing. And he said, Steve, we're gonna blow the doors off it. And I didn't believe him. And he goes, trust me, within 24 hours, we hit our $25,000 like one. And then I think we ended around 75,000, which was three times our goal, which is great. But nervous and, and the way we prepped for it was I would say, not enough. That's not exactly true. I I benefited because during the entire restoration, Joe had set up a Facebook page for the time machine restoration team. And it was for fans to kind of track the progress and Joe was very tied into all the Back to the Future online Facebook pages, the big ones, all of them. So he already had access to a very large very rabid Back to the Future audience. And that was the reason my Kickstarter was successful. I if I had tried building it from scratch, it would have taken a year you know, just to try to get up to speed and building word of mouth. But Joe had been cultivating this because of the restoration for two years and we had been putting videos online you know, so his own Facebook page had but 75,000 people and then the other back of the user pages had millions, right so once we decided to launch our Kickstarter he posted everywhere on all the Facebook pages for back feature. Check this out. It's official. And then when people clicked on our Kickstarter, there was Bob Gale sitting right next to me in my Kickstarter video. And Bob is essentially saying you can trust this guy, he's going to finish this project, you can trust your money with him. And that and that. Put a lot of people over the top because you know, fan docs are a dime a dozen. It's easy for anybody to do it. But to have the creator sitting there next to me endorsing me gave my huge Yeah, it gave me a lot of credibility. And then the other thing we did that was excellent is we had fantastic Kickstarter giveaways, like, like, tears, tears that nobody else had. And the most popular one was, we made small five by 7000 desktop display shadow boxes, with pieces that were taken out of the time machine that were too damaged to put back in. So we turn them into collectible display cases that were with a CFA signed by Bob Gale and Joe Walzer. So essentially, you could own legally a piece of the time machine for real.

Alex Ferrari 21:00
And what was the cost of that? Just curious, way too low.

Steve Concotelli 21:03
We priced them, we priced them at like 200 bucks, I would have thought that they sold out in like 15 minutes. And then we did a second round of them. Like I think I could have charged $400 for those suckers. I had no idea.

Alex Ferrari 21:15
No, you would have probably you could have easy, depending on what it is you could apart 500 or 1000 a pop and

Steve Concotelli 21:21
Yeah, all day. Yeah, that we could have been you know, in retrospect, hindsight is 2020. But we, you know, again, it wasn't about trying to, you know, rake them over the coals that was just to get those out and stuff and, and they were wildly popular. We had a really cool poster, I had some artwork that I'd taken over the finished car. But we had stuff that wasn't just like just the movie, it was real. Back to the Future, like official type stuff. And it just just blew the doors off. So it was, you know, and then at the end of the Kickstarter, I'm sitting there thinking, Oh, God, now I have to fulfill all this nightmare stuff, which that's, and I filled everything myself, right. Like I didn't have a fulfillment company, I boxed and shipped, you know, 600 individual items to our back guard backers across the world. That's an education in itself. Hmm. And believe me while you're sitting there boxing up, like, out of time license plates at two in the morning, you're thinking to yourself, man, I should, I should have just gone to work. I should have just gone to work.

Leading it's just and I know we all go through that every indie filmmaker has that same story about just like how much of a nightmare it is. And it's like a bootcamp Brotherhood in that regard.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
No, there's no question it is it is fairly brutal. And at your level, I could only imagine and again, you had such a responsibility, because you were representing Back to the Future. So that it's not like another little indie movie that no one ever heard of, like, You're, you're doing an official doc.

Steve Concotelli 22:50
And not just that, but I couldn't pull the plug like, you know, I wanted to quit the film about a dozen times over, you know, the years just because it was exhausting and too much work and just a drain. But you can't you know, because I am representing this giant franchise, and I have to represent the best of what it is. How long did it take you from start to finish? Oh, for a little over four years, which, at the time, I thought that was forever. And then I and then as I met other indie filmmakers, I realized that's on the short end of indie filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 23:23
Taya, Doc Doc's can go for a while.

Steve Concotelli 23:25
Yeah, I've got friends who've been making Doc's for 789 years, and they're still not done. So I, for years felt like a long time. But um, you know, it was actually bought right on par with most. And considering how much I did by myself. That was, you know, I think that was a pretty decent schedule.

Alex Ferrari 23:43
And you do come from an editing and post production background. Now, you couldn't you wouldn't have been able to make this movie unless you were the editor.

Steve Concotelli 23:50
Yeah, I don't think so. I, I've been a professional, like, television editor in Los Angeles for about 12 years now. So, you know, I knew that I needed to edit it, not just for myself, but because I had over what, 120 hours of footage. And it would have been too hard for anybody else to get up to speed on where this stuff was, you were shooting it as well. Yeah, because I shot it. And so I knew kind of where stuff was I knew how the how the restoration progressed. And then I shot all the interviews. And then I went through and logged all the interviews, so I knew where all the sound bites were. And I know several other friends who are top notch professional editors, but it would have taken them weeks just to try to get up to speed to find anything. And then you know, after working 12 hours of their day job, the last thing they want to do is come home and try to cut my film, you know, and and I couldn't have afforded any of them even if they wanted to. So it just it fell on me.

Alex Ferrari 24:42
Now can you explain to the audience and this is something I preach about a lot about tapping into an existing fan base when you're making a project because it's so invaluable? I mean, you I know. Yes. And a lot of people like Oh, he's making something for Back to the Future. That's monsters fan base. I'm like yes. But the concept is still the same is if you went out to create a product that was going to be sold to a audience, and you knew what that audience wants, and you gave that audience what they want it. And it's that that concept can go from narrative to documentary. But can you explain the power of that?

Steve Concotelli 25:20
Well, I think it would be hard to make a documentary, if you didn't already have, identify your fan base and who you're trying to appeal to. I mean, you're right back to the future. It has a gigantic fan base. And not just that, but sci fi fans tend to be very tactically adapt. You know, they're they're online, they consume digital media, they like blu rays, over DVDs, they are digital download and streaming so that they're very active online. And that's definitely the Back to the Future fan base. And, you know, trying to tap into that is is essential. I don't know if I could have made the movie without it. But even then, even with the gigantic fan base that they have, it's still difficult because my film from the outside is it's a niche film. It's a film about a car, where the car and or even a restoration.

Alex Ferrari 26:07
Yeah, is arguably it's the car.

Steve Concotelli 26:09
Yeah. And you know, a lot of people you hear that you're like, Oh, it's a, you know, it's like an episode of monster garage where they're, they're wrenching on a car for an hour. It's just like, Well, no, you know, and to try to explain what it isn't like, Oh, is it? You know, is it a documentary about, you know, behind the scenes of the filmmaking? No, that's, that's, that's not what this is. This is about the history and restoration of this screen use Time Machine. And so you know, like it, you know, every even that cuts back on the potential audience within back the feature that you can apply to? And yeah, you want to make your audience as big as possible. And, you know, thankfully, they had a very big fan base, but trying to build it from scratch. I I don't know if I could have done it.

Alex Ferrari 26:50
Well, then also, I mean, you're right, because, you know, like, perfect example. I always use this example. The Vegan vegan chef movie. Yeah. You know, you. Yeah, exactly. It's like you're like these people are interested in cooking like, Well, no, it's it's cooking. And people are interested in cooking, but it's vegan cooking. And now with vegan cooking, there's raw vegan cooking, correct. There's vegetarian, there's paleo. There's all sorts of other sub genres of the larger cooking. So same thing goes with here, there's a Back to the Future fan. And then there are fans of like, of the DeLorean. and would like to see that so that it is big, but it's still a smaller sub subset of that.

Steve Concotelli 27:29
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And that's, you know, when you're making this film, you have no idea how big or how small that subset is going to be. And that's, that's one of the biggest risks of any filmmaking is when you take on a passion project, you know, you're you're in it to the end and, and it could fly and it could flop and you just kind of have to write it out. And whatever happens happens.

Alex Ferrari 27:49
Now when you when you finish the movie, so the movies done now, how did you mark thank goodness, thank God, it's over. It's over. I've gave I've given birth, I'm done. Yeah. Did you distribute the film yourself? Did you market the film yourself? Or did you have universal help you How did that whole process go?

Steve Concotelli 28:07
Universal, didn't help market the film itself, because, and this is, again, is the legality of a major studio. My I had licensed footage, but my film wasn't an official Universal Studios film, The featurette on the 30th anniversary, Blu Ray was but when it came time, and I made my feature length standalone version of the film, you know, they were hesitant to promote it, because oh, it's not one of our films, and blah, blah, blah. They did give me some shout outs on their Facebook page, which was great. But in terms of marketing, actually, a lot of that was once again, Joe Walzer was him, motivating and kind of, you know, gathering the troops on the Facebook pages and other social media platforms to get the word out to all the big Back to the Future. Facebook pages and user groups, and I did some discussion on the prop replica forum. You know, those guys, they love props.

Alex Ferrari 29:02
So that's, that's a whole other sub genre to like, yeah, price is the ultimate This is the ultimate prop.

Steve Concotelli 29:07
Yeah, but but in terms of distribution, I actually have a domestic distribution company for North America. And so I handed over the actual, you know, creation and distribution and getting on all the streaming services, they handled that, okay. And again, that's a whole other subject is, you know, distribution distributor versus going with an actual domestic distributor, let's, if you don't, I'm still walking through that for international.

Alex Ferrari 29:37
So let me let me ask you a question that and you can say, I don't want to talk about it, or you can answer it. Do you think that because if you would have come to me and I would have been consulting you on this project, and you would have come to me like Alex, I have this movie, it's it's about Back to the Future about the machine Time Machine. What do you think I should do? Should I try to self distribute this or should I go through a distributor for domestic We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And I would have sold you 110% that goes self distribution purely because you had such a fan base that would have turned up for Yes. Because for internationals different International, absolutely, but for self distribute for domestic, which is what I did, you know, and I had no nowhere near the fan base of Baghdad. And we have been fairly successful with it. I think you could have done gangbusters so I'm curious on why you chose that route? Because it was what year was it? When you finally released this?

Steve Concotelli 30:44
The feature came out last year 2016.

Alex Ferrari 30:46
So distribute was around self distribution is the thing. Yeah, all that thing. I looked into it. So what was the reasoning behind you choosing a traditional distributor versus a self distribution outlet? And also do you know, Mr. If you want to answer this, are you happy with your choice?

Steve Concotelli 31:02
Fair enough! Well, I won't mention my distributor by name. But you know, at the time of my thinking was this is that because of the the subject matter. It was, you know, car car based and it was kind of the way I produced it was kind of modular, I have a TV background. I was really hoping to also get it on television. And to and to do that the distributor I went with had a very solid reputation for indie Doc's high profile indie Doc's, I vetted them, because I've heard horror stories about, but yeah, terrible. So Believe me, I did my work. I vetted them against several people and in industry, people, I trusted to make sure that they had an actual reputation. And then, but I was wanted to try to get them on television rights, because I felt it was a great property for like, you know, the Back to the Future trilogy, screenings on TBS. Okay, here's an extra hour of awesome content that ties in Sure. And, and I didn't really have the method to do that myself. That was the next level up of distribution beyond me. Sure. And I needed help for that. And, and to be honest, I had done so much of this film by myself that I was ready to ask for some help. Yeah, like, you know, like, I didn't so much, I dropped the ball on so much because I was doing it by myself and details missed that I didn't want to screw up my distribution. So I was like, I want to hand it off to a group of professionals who know how to get the marketing out there the messaging who know the easiest way to get these produced for the cheapest way and and it was just, you know, it, it had everything I was looking for at the time. And so that's what I went with I mean, you know, now what I choose different Yeah, it's it's been about a wash I distributor, I have friends who have done distributor, I hear decent things. And I would certainly consider them next time around. But for this one, it just seemed like the best way to go for the situation I was in and then you're now doing an A you went through somebody else for international Actually, I just went around and around I had a company in LA that wanted to distribute internationally and then a my domestic distributors like great, you know, go sign up, it'll be awesome. And then they gave me their what they were looking for and what they wanted was out rageous expenses just outrageous as for

Alex Ferrari 33:11
Oh, you mean as far as like, you know how much it goes? There can and

Steve Concotelli 33:14
Yeah, yeah, like their their caps were just were like, more than I would ever make ever. And she's like, no, right. So now, you know, now I'm actually looking at you know, I was on the phone with the stripper just like a couple of weeks ago in terms of, do I want to do that or, or for international? Can I just put it on Vimeo, which I could do by myself. And I'm going around around with all that stuff right now.

Alex Ferrari 33:37
Still, right! Well, when we get off when we get off this interview, I'll talk to you a bit about that. So yeah. So can you did you tour at all with this film? Did you like go to conventions? Did you do anything like that?

Steve Concotelli 33:49
Yeah, I did. Actually, I went to a couple of the comic conventions where we screened the film and then I gave a couple of Q and A's. I went to San Jose Comic Con Philly Comic Con, I went to Salt Lake Comic Con a couple weeks ago. And then I actually I went to DeLorean DCs, which is the DeLorean convention that they have every two years, I went and spoke there and showed the film. So not like a full fledged tour. But but enough that I'm tired of flying all over talking about it. But yeah. And that was great. Like the convention stuff is, is fun, and especially when Back to the Future, had a large representation at all those conventions I went to, like, I went to the ones that Chris Lloyd was at that Michael J. Fox was at so there was already just a huge back of the future fan base there. And that's why I selected those.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Now, did you sell anything there while you were there? Or I guess, okay,

Steve Concotelli 34:44
No, I whenever I went, I always had a table and I would sell some copies. And, you know, some days were more successful than others. You know, most of the time you sit there like, you know, the guy at the table with 20 copies of his movie he's trying to peddle you know, like I've been there

Alex Ferrari 34:59
A bit that night. It's Yeah, it's brutal.

Steve Concotelli 35:01
You know, you're that guy. But I always tried to at least hedge my bets, you know, so Terry and Oliver holler, they, they drive around the country, and they're, they're back to the time machine raising money for the Michael J. Fox foundation. And they're very well known, and they're at all the conventions. So if I was at a convention with them, I would try to get a table close to them, because there would be all the fans around the car, you know, and I tried to parlay as much as I could. But even then, you know, it's, it's still hard and, and breaking through and letting people know what my film was, was always the biggest hurdle. Just like, what what is this film? What is it about? You know, and that's, you know, I could I could list 1000 things that I did wrong on this film. And you know, and cutting through the clutter and having, you know, a clear title and, and letting fans clearly know what your film is about. It got a little muddy in there, and I'm even now I'm still trying to what is what's your movie about? I've never heard of it. What is it? Right, right.

Alex Ferrari 36:02
Now, did you? Did you get to meet? Meet Bob Zemeckis at all? I don't remember he was in the dock or not.

Steve Concotelli 36:08
No, no. Bob Zemeckis was not in the dock. I met Bob, very briefly once a few months ago and on it back to the future, an unrelated thing. But the only people I've met, I know Bob Gale, very well. I met Claudia wells, who was Jennifer Parker. I know her pretty well. Okay. I met Chris Lloyd. I met him a few times Tom Wilson. Never met Michael J. Fox, though because he was he was never at the same conventions that I was at. But, you know, like, it's if there's ever a Back to the Future thing in Los Angeles, and they're all there. I'm sure I will be there and get a chance to meet them. No, I mean, it's, it's it's cool. But again, like, you're in it for so long. After a while you're like, yeah, it's cool. But I'm okay. Sitting this one out. No, no,

Alex Ferrari 36:51
I did. Yeah. After you're on the same project for years and years and years. Because for you, it's not just a year that the movies been out. You've been on this? half a decade. Yeah.

Steve Concotelli 37:01
Yeah. Easy. Yeah. And it's just, and even now, you know, we're still promoting it and and back, the future still continues to be popular. And they're always talking about, you know, putting up fan events in the upcoming years. You know, they did a huge 30th back to the feature fan event in 2015. I don't know if you were a part of that at all, or if you went to it. Not at all. It was put on by Joe Walzer like the same guy who did the restoration. Of course, he's the one who put on this massive like five day back to the teacher, superfan event. And so like, you know, we were out at the pointy Hills Mall where they had a big like, they had a big twin pines mall sign built and put in the same place. And they had Doc's truck and you get pictures in front of it. I mean, it was it was like fan insanity. That's like a man like

Alex Ferrari 37:48
That's like mecca for back oh was like going like that it's going to that mall? Yeah, it's still there.

Steve Concotelli 37:54
Oh, yeah, the mall still there. And not only that, but they they screened the movie in the mall, like in the parking lot there. And then, of course, when they have the scene, you know what the terrorists they did, they reenacted it live in sync. So Marty drives the dorians driving around the crowd, and the VW is chasing around and there's 1000 fans just screaming their heads off. It's just like, like, this is just insanity. You know, like, it's so surreal. You can't even believe it's actually happening.

Alex Ferrari 38:20
That's that that must be insane.

Steve Concotelli 38:22
Yeah, Yeah,it was. It was mind blowing. And yeah, like 10 year old me like growing up in the Midwest and seeing Back to the Future on the screen. Like, if he saw that he'd be like, Well done, old Steve. Well done. Like that. That was a dream come true. Now, did you?

Alex Ferrari 38:37
Did you talk to Bob a lot. And you've been involved with Bob a lot? Did you discover any inside stories about the making of Back to the Future you could share?

Steve Concotelli 38:45
You know, oddly enough? No, I, I really, I really didn't. And actually, at the same time casting Gaines put out a book, which was like, we don't need roads. I think it was called the Back to the Future history, which had all those stories. So I just read his book. Oh, oh, these are the stories I didn't know. But but with Bob, you know, I honestly I tread pretty lightly. I when I when I'm around him. I try to be very cautious of his time. And I try to be very respectful because he's, he's still working. He's still a very busy guy, you know, he's got 1000 things to do. And, you know, I try to be cautious and I try not to, I try not to do the fan stuff. You know him. You know what I mean by that, like,

Alex Ferrari 39:28
I've been around like celebrity fans. And imagine when you're working with a person you idolize, or you're working with someone, you have a tremendous amount of respect, and you just want to kind of geek out to Yeah, it's tough. And trust me, I've been in I've been in a room with huge celebrities and movies that I want to that I grew up with, and I just want to go take a picture of you. Can you sign this for me? Like but you can't because you're professional?

Steve Concotelli 39:55
Yeah, you know, and I crossed over from that fandom into professional You know, back to feature filmmaker Domine. And you know, you don't want to, he gets the fan stuff all the time at the conventions. And that's great. And he loves it, but when I'm around him, I want to be the professional and, and you know, every time I would contact him because I needed help with something, you know, Shabaab, what do I do? You know, universal is not calling back. What should I do about this? And but, you know, it's mostly like, I'm in trouble, Bob, what am I gonna do?

Alex Ferrari 40:25
Right, as opposed to? So Bob, how was it in the first day of shooting?

Steve Concotelli 40:28
Yeah, no, I like every now and then he'd be telling those stories while people were in the room and I would listen, but I, I never really, really went down that road. You know, one thing I did say to him though, is when I was in production on and I was pretty far along I said, you know, Bob, making this film is the hardest thing I've ever done. I had no idea just how insanely hard it would be and he shakes his hand he goes yeah, you know, like nobody nobody understands how hard it is to produce a film and and you know, Back to the Future was a terribly difficult film to produce especially with Eric Stoltz Nadir reshoot a bunch of it. Like, I put myself in his shoes being what, you know, like a 32 year old producer, with this giant film and millions of dollars bleeding out and like, you're never gonna make another movie again. If this bombs, like the pressure, he must have been under you know, I think Bob's the bowels as they call it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I kind of think about that and empathize about that, because, you know, my film is is not even on the same level, but it's still stressful and hard. And, and I think that's why Bob and I kind of got along because he he understands that what being a producer isn't the sacrifice and the troubleshooting and just the misery that that's involved with it because he's done it

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Is the misery It really is. And for people who don't know they're listening. If you watch Back to the Future, that Michael J Fox was not the original Marty McFly. It was Eric stolte. And they'd shot what like, a third of it, I think third of the movie with Eric Stoltz. And you see some of that in the behind the scenes on the blu ray. And you just you that the call had to be made that someone that Robert Zemeckis had to go to Spielberg and go, look, yeah, we got to recast and like, yeah. Oh, can you imagine? No,

Steve Concotelli 42:11
I can't imagine that competition at all. It's just like, you know, the heartache or even like when you're when they're shooting with Eric Stoltz, you know, great actor, but just imagine looking at your dailies just going to yourself, JJ. This movie's gonna be bad. This is like he's just he's great. But he's not good for this. And just just imagine that that that sinking feeling, you know, of like, are we ever going to work in this town again, I I have nothing but tremendous empathy for them as producers now and you know, all of us who have been indie producers, because it's so it's such a hard damn job that you can't even begin to describe how hard it is.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Yeah, we were in we're indie guys. So it's a bit difference. We do have pressures, but I cannot imagine the pressures of millions of dollars. Yeah, totally. It just on top of you in a studio and, and a concept like Back to the Future, which was, it was a pretty out there concept. Yeah, it was with a question.

Steve Concotelli 43:06
Yeah. But again, what's what's great about Bob is he again, he's very producer, he were, you know, I'm like, Bob, I'm making this film. And his opinion is kind of like, you know what, go for it. Give it a shot, give it a try. And that's such a producer thing to say, No, just throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. You know, don't edit yourself. Don't stop yourself from trying it. Just go and try it and see what happens. Now,

Alex Ferrari 43:27
Why do you think back to the future is such a classic and is touched so many people?

Steve Concotelli 43:34
So you're you're getting into fandom now? I told you I was gonna get I know, I know. But it's, I think everybody listening who's a fan knows at all knows the answer to that already. And it's just because it's, it's a timeless story. It's, it's a sci fi movie. It's a romance. It's an action movie. You know, it's an it's all these different movies combined into one and every, every line of the script is perfect, and it's tight. And it just propels the story forward every single second, you know, not not a second wasted on screen. And, and you know, even when I saw it, I was too young to understand the going back and visiting your parents stuff like that time machine, man, just like still to this day when I see those scenes, like my heart still skips a beat. And I've sat in that car hundreds of times. And like I still like, get you know, I feel my pulse race just because of how cool it is. And my wife teases me. And just like how can you even sit and watch this movie? After all the times? You've seen it making your film I like because it still excites me. It is it is it for me. It's I remember I remember going to see it in 1985 Yeah, me too. I

Alex Ferrari 44:43
Remember going to the theater, seeing it and my mind being absolutely blown. You know, that was that there was that wonderful, wonderful time in the 80s that so many great movies were made like 80 from at Walmart. It's just so many great movies. 85 summer of 85 was amazing. memory

Steve Concotelli 45:00
Or Yeah, you're talking my language now like I was I was 10 when back the video came out so I was just a little on the young side, but I was still in that sweet spot for all those awesome, awesome 80s movies I mean, between Ghostbusters theaters gram backs future Gremlins and that Goonies but here's another one that it's one of my Joe Walzer. It's one of our favorites. And nobody ever talks about an explorer. So it's amazing. I love him waters, like so many people don't know, explorers at all. And yet, that's one of my favorite quintessential 80s teenager. You know, films. I

Alex Ferrari 45:34
Love everything about them. I would also throw flight of the Navigator in there. Yeah. And then I would also throw in Monster Squad. Yeah, Monster Squad. Absolutely. Toss those guys into that because those are also lesser known. Yeah, no, because The Goonies took you know, took over. But now we're geeking out in the 80s movies. And we could I could talk about 80s a whole episode on

Steve Concotelli 45:56
What's funny is actually in a way Goonies kind of kicked off my whole out of time movie in a way I owe it to Goonies. Why? And, and I'll tell that story real quick. In 2010, before I knew anybody, like actually was before that, but I, I had put together a parody trailer, you know, that when the mashups were really popular? Well, I did a mashup I did a mash up of Goonies of The Goonies meets Pirates of the Caribbean, okay. And I'm a professional editor. So what I did was I took both films, professionally, digitize them, and cut together like a professional trailer, not you know, not what and it looked, it looked real. And it was called Goonies of the Caribbean. And when you watch the trailer, it has a plot, like The Goonies discover, you know, the ship, and then the pirates come out. And it was this whole thing, and it was really well done. And it was popular online. And in fact, I got an email from dick Donner one day telling me how much he liked my trailer. And he's just like, and remember, Goonies never say die. And I'm just like, Dick Donner. Just make me a Guney. I'm like, I call on it. I'm on it. Like, yeah, he did. But that story aside, one day, I get an email from a guy who's just like, hey, you'd like Goonies and like, Yeah, because check this out. And he sent me a photo of Corey Feldman is an adult sitting in a time machine. And I said, Who are you? And where is that? He goes, I'm My name is Joe Walter. It's my time machine. And I'm like, I've got to meet you. And then like, two days later, I was at his condo checking out his time machine, and we've been friends ever since. And then

Alex Ferrari 47:25
I've heard that before I was checking out Scott. Okay.

Steve Concotelli 47:28
Yeah. And Joe ended up he is the head of the restoration. But that's how I met is because Joe saw my Goonies pirates trailer online and emailed me about it. Tell me how much he liked it. And that started this whole weird adventure. So The Goonies Goonies are at the core of everything. You got

Alex Ferrari 47:43
an email from dick Donner?

Steve Concotelli 47:45
It did it was, it was amazing. I couldn't believe it. Like, you know, like, oh, you're always afraid that they're gonna say, Thank you take that down. Right now. We will sue you, you know, like, something like that. But he, he said, it just tickled his fancy, and he really liked it. So I'm just like, boy, I'm framing that one. That's awesome. Yeah. I see smile thinking about that one.

Alex Ferrari 48:05
So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Steve Concotelli 48:14
Boy, I don't know. Because I feel like I'm still trying to break into the business to be honest. Like I don't like you should go ask a successful multimillionaire film producer that question because if I knew the answer, I'd be doing it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 48:25
But you've been doing it. You've been in the business for 10,15 years now. Yeah. You're a little, you're a little ahead of the film students. So

Steve Concotelli 48:33
Yeah, advice for that? I do have an answer. If, if there's one field that you want to do, whether it's writing for scripted TV writing features you're in or whatever you want to do, in college intern at the company you want to intern at in college, if you that will set you on the right foot for everything else that follows. So if you get an internship with, you know, like, say, NBC Universal or on one of your favorite TV shows, as an intern, you get to sit in the writers room, you get to meet the people, you get to know how things work, and then they'll be more inclined to hire you as a PA. And once you're a PA, they'll be more inclined to hire you because you know, all the ropes are ready. If you get you can get into the place. You want to work early as an intern. Do it and that will set you on the right path.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
That's a great advice. That's exactly what I did in college. I worked at Universal in Florida. Oh, there you go. Yes, I was working in the backlog all through all throughout my I actually skipped school to work for free. It was

Steve Concotelli 49:31
Oh, that was awesome. Yeah, I interned out here for a few companies. So I did it, but they were they were feature companies and I just didn't end up doing feature. So but yeah, great experience and that that will help more than anything else.

Alex Ferrari 49:44
Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Steve Concotelli 49:50
I wasn't prepared for these questions.

Alex Ferrari 49:51
I know you weren't. You have anything? On top of your head?

Steve Concotelli 49:58
No I don't you know, I will give a shout out I one book that that pops to mind that I really, really enjoyed is Rebel Without a crew. Yeah, of course, Robert. But um, yeah, I mean, that's just that's such a filmmaker go to, because any any book that details, the horrible struggles of any other filmmaker I want to read. Like, I want to know that every other filmmaker is having just as much of a miserable time as I did you know when that's comforting. I don't say that to be mean, I say that in terms of comfort, because because making films is hard. And it's an even successful people struggle with it. And I like knowing that

Alex Ferrari 50:37
You don't want to hear from somebody, you know, I had a great time. It was easy.

Steve Concotelli 50:41
No, no. Because odds are they're lying, or they just had some kind of CO EP credit where they just show up once a week and walked around the set and home like, No, you weren't involved. You didn't do it? No, now it's just like, yeah, like, I want to know, the real stories. And again, in making this film, one of the great things is that at the conventions, I get to meet a lot of the other indie filmmakers. And we all have the same stories about how hard it is, and the studios and this and that, and it's just, and you realize that when things go wrong, it's not that it's not that you're doing things wrong. It's simply part of the process. Like that's making if you're, if things aren't going wrong, you're not making a film, right.

Alex Ferrari 51:20
Got some great tag. That's a great quote, sir.

Steve Concotelli 51:23
Feel free to use it

Alex Ferrari 51:24
That's a great quote. Now, What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Steve Concotelli 51:32
In this film, it's Don't try to do everything yourself? Okay? battle, that alone was the biggest mistake. And the biggest hurdle that I kind of essentially threw up in front of myself, was I took I took on way too much of this project by myself. And I, like I wrote the film, I produced it, I shot it, I directed it, and I cut it. And I did all the graphics, I ran the Kickstarter, I designed the web page, I designed the DVD sleeve, like I cut the trailers, I cut all the bonus features, like I literally and I say that not as a source of pride, but more of a source of embarrassment, that, that I didn't bring in more people, but you know, at the time, this stuff takes a lot of time, and people people want to be paid. And I didn't have the money to pay people and, and when you and then if they do it on their own time, it would have taken another three years to get done. Because they you know, cut for 20 minutes here an hour here. And I was on a I was on a deadline. So I I ended up doing way too much by myself and details were constantly kind of falling through the cracks, or falling through the cracks and dropping and, and it was just, you know, the nature of trying to do too much as an individual and I yeah, having a team of like two or three people who are all equally dedicated, who will have an equal share in it, that will all support each other and not have anybody bail i think is critical. And makes things a lot easier because you can hand stuff off if you need to.

Alex Ferrari 52:59
Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Steve Concotelli 53:02
Ah, let's see Max, if I would. Well, actually, I would say on the top of the list I put It's a Wonderful Life, okay, which which is not unlike Back to the Future you know, it's it's seeing what happens life without you, you know, when a different path and there's a little bit of time travel and mystery in there. So I would say that and then back to the future. Definitely number two. I would put Ghostbusters at number three, I would put you know, the Star Wars you know, the original trilogy somewhere, you know, for Raiders five, and then you just start getting into all the other you know, awesome 80s movies. It's simply a list of babies and I totally admit it you know, it's Yeah, again, I put explorers up there you know, even though the alien third act is really weird and Goofy and a little a little clownish but I still I still love it. Yeah, I you can definitely tell that I grew up completely within the 80s and that's you know, they're they're my favorite films and

Alex Ferrari 53:59
So that's why you must love Stranger Things.

Steve Concotelli 54:01
You know what I do? I haven't finished second season don't spoil it but yeah, I'm I'm savoring this one. I'm savoring it going slow. Yeah, I love it's funny because when I watch Stranger Things, I think to myself, none of us made proton packs that look that good in the 80s since like, that's my eyes like we get cardboard boxes. None of ours look that good.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
I actually I was I dressed up i think i think it was the six I think it was at five actually. I think it was 85 I dressed up and we did a whole show on my school and I was one of the Ghostbusters and yeah, I did not look that good.

Steve Concotelli 54:37
No, but it's so funny because all of my friends like obviously since I made a movie about the restoration of the time machine. I have come to know a lot of very very good fan prop makers including all the Ghostbuster guys all the Back to the Future guys all the aliens guys. And so like you know their their proton packs and stuff now, our screen accurate and like they have the full sighs Actos like in their yard like that's how big my fans my friends are. But, but like, yeah seeing like all of us have pictures of us in the 80s dressed just like those kids like oh my god I almost have that photo being my friends dress

Alex Ferrari 55:14
Like Ghostbusters the 80s That's insane. And that is the genius of the duffer brothers.

Steve Concotelli 55:18
Yeah, that's Oh my god. Yeah, they they got everything right on that one, you know, but again, I would love to know the story of how hard it was them to try to get the series made anywhere else. Those are the great stories of you know how back to the teacher was rejected by everybody how jaws almost didn't get made because they went you know, over budget over time. The stories behind the your favorite films of how they were disasters are the stories I love the most.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
Absolutely. Now, where can where can people find you and find information about you your work, and also the movie.

Steve Concotelli 55:49
The movie, they can go to my website, it's outatimemovie.com and out of time is spelled like the license plate. It's outatimemovie.com The movie is currently available on iTunes, Hulu, Vimeo, and it's also available on blu ray and DVD. And we ship worldwide. And it's all All the links are available through the website. And if they want to email me if they want to criticize my film, you know, tell me that my filmmaking isn't that hard and that I'm wrong or that explores isn't awesome. They can contact me through the website because as I said before, I run the website because I literally do everything related to the film. It comes straight to me. It's not some big team of people, although I wish it were.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
Steven, thank you so much for taking the time out to do this man. It's been an absolute pleasure. geeking out with you and also talking, talking shop with you, man.

Steve Concotelli 56:42
Absolutely. And hey, I just want to say keep up the good work. I love the podcasts. I love hearing other indie filmmakers stories. And thank you for doing this. We appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 56:51
Oh, brother. Thank you, man. I appreciate that.

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BPS 419: Going Undercover and Directing for VICE with Natalia Leite

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Alex Ferrari 1:39
I'd like to welcome to the show, Natalia Leite. Thank you so, so much for being on the show.

Natalia Leite 3:06
Thank you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 3:08
I thank you so much. No, it's it's i was i was shown your work and introduced to you work recently. And I have to say I'm fairly impressed.

Natalia Leite 3:19
Thank you. Yeah, there's a wide range of thing that I've been doing here.

Alex Ferrari 3:23
So before we get into it, how did you actually get started in the business?

Natalia Leite 3:27
So I actually came from a visual arts background, I went to art school, I didn't have proper film education. I thought I wanted to be making visual art and then quickly realized that that maybe wasn't the medium for me. And I started getting into film just just out of my own curiosity and you know, eventually assisting other directors. One thing led to the next started writing my own scripts and just kind of like DIY being scrappy doing it myself and realize that I loved telling stories in this medium. And what was what so you basic that was the the genesis of you wanting to be a director as you just kind of fell into it. Like I really like this, right? Yeah, I fell into it and discovered that I really liked it. Honestly, it wasn't really in my radar. I grew up in Brazil, and I just, I don't know, it just wasn't like presentable a career path that was like presented to me ever that I really thought this could be an option, you know, right. But I knew I wanted to do something creative. And I knew I wanted to tell stories. It was just like taking another form back then. And I it all like one thing led to the next like I was assisting a lot of other directors and producers for a while and I started writing my own work and the the first thing that sort of started to put my work out there was be here now which was wish be here now wish which was a web show that I, you know, started directed row produced did the sound sometimes, like just lab services. Got it? Yeah, craft services did everything with a handful of friends. And that, you know, started to kind of putting the wheels in motion in terms of me doing this as a career,

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Which was fun, because I actually saw a little bit of that show, and it actually looks really good. Like it actually has great production value for being such a scrappy little show. So congratulations on that.

Natalia Leite 5:33
I'll credit that to Del Mar, who was our dp dollarway. For Madsen. She's shooting high maintenance now on HBO, and she is just the queen of just like, let's figure it out and still make it look gorgeous. So yeah, she's really lucky to have her as a friend and DP on that.

Alex Ferrari 5:50
You definitely need people like that on on your crew as a director, yes. Let's figure it out. And like, let's still make it look gorgeous. That's always like,

Natalia Leite 6:00
We're like pulling in, you know, like, whatever we could find just like bringing in lamps and just, you know, attaching things like just trying to be creative of how we're going to get a good image and not make it look super low quality. So she's she's really creative in that way.

Alex Ferrari 6:15
So let me ask you, how did you get that first project got that series up off the ground? I mean, obviously, you need some money. Where did you find money? How did you put this whole thing? How did you put that show together?

Natalia Leite 6:27
Yeah, so the show, we, you know, it really started off as, okay, let's do this on weekends with friends, like I just want to get, I just want to get work out there in the world, right. And then, so everyone was working for free, but then obviously, like, they came points when, okay, we really do need money, we can't just like keep this going for, for nothing. And we ended up doing a Kickstarter, we raised 20,000 on that Kickstarter, which was like, a lot of work. It's like not a lot of money at all for for making a series, you know, that ended up being like an hour and a bit long. But we really stretched it out and made those 20k on Kickstarter and, and through that met like other investors, it was actually a pretty successful campaign for us, because we just met a lot of people that then ended up financing other projects.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
And we're in where's it being shown now.

Natalia Leite 7:25
So be here now, which is still on, we ended up selling the first season to a company called aura. So they have it on their site. And then the second season, we had it with full screen, which is full screen no longer exists. So now it's just up on our Vimeo and we're trying to figure out if we can just like throw it up on YouTube because for us at this point, it's just about you know, why do people watch it? I mean, it's it's, you know, it's older, it's old now. I consider it for

Alex Ferrari 7:54
Yes and ancient, like two three years old. It's like three years old My God then it's like the 80s but I want people to still watch it you know? Alright aged a bit since I was Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, you look haggard lately. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's my you see, you can go back your youth. My youth is fading away in front of you. Yes. Those three years really killed is now what is it certainly ask you. So what is your process when you're creating or selecting a project?

Natalia Leite 8:32
My process so I need to gravitate towards things that I feel a personal connection to, that I feel really passionate about. Because, as you know, it just, you're going to work on this thing for so long. Sometimes you don't even know how long and you got to just like, love it. And I feel like for me, I need to feel it's an instinctual thing. Like I need to feel like there's like a cord from my heart to whatever the script or concept is. That's like pulling me towards it. And there's been a lot of times, you know, now I'm reading other people's scripts, I'm deciding like, what to do next, writing my own stuff as well. But for me, it's always just like, I have to just check in intuitively to Is there a really strong pool like do I feel called to absolutely have to do this? You know, otherwise? I, I might love a story and be like, Oh, this is great, but I'm not feeling so passionate about it's probably not for me like I shouldn't be the one to do it. You know, and I think it's really good to discern that

Alex Ferrari 9:30
Well tell me a little bit about your work with Vice and how that came about. Especially that amazing documentary every woman life as a truck, truck stop stripper, which is when I saw that I was like a half to have her on the show. I need to hear all about this.

Natalia Leite 9:47
Yeah. So I had been writing on my own a script for my first features called bear. And a big part of the script took place in a strip club, but I didn't want but it's sort of like a strip club. In a small town, and I was looking for something that was like, you know, just off the off the highway ideally, right? Like I didn't want like a big nightclub a strip club in

Alex Ferrari 10:10
In the city. Right?

Natalia Leite 10:11
Right. And I had friends at the time, I didn't know where I was going to shoot. But I had friends who were living in Albuquerque, and I went there on like a month, you know, hiatus while I was writing the script to go live in Albuquerque, and ended up like touring all the strip clubs in the area. As I was like doing research and ended up finding out about this club, that is about 45 minutes away from Albuquerque, in the middle of nowhere, like you're driving on highway 40, nothing, nothing, nothing, you pass a Walmart, then there's nothing, nothing, nothing. And then there's like the signs there's like topless. And then there is like club 203. And it just cater to truckers. So the truckers passing by, they can tune into a CB radio, and they'll pick up the signal. And it'll be someone at the club being like, tonight on stages candy, and you know, whatever they say. And they'll like turn off into the side of the road. And I found out about this place. I went there alone for the first time. And I was just like, what is this?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
Sounds? It sounds like it sounds insane. Yeah, it was just like, it was like straight out of a David Lynch movie. And it's expecting people to start talking backwards. And there'll be a little person just walking by.

Natalia Leite 11:27
I was like, wow, this is really fascinating. And it was just, you know, that I'm Ryan, who's the guy who owns it, it was like very much a no rules type of place. And that there was like in terms of the dancing like you could do whatever you want. They had this rocking horse, they would pull on stage sometimes. And there was like, you know, just like mom and dad daughter dance, like it was like, yeah, there was like this survey stuff going on to this. Like, I don't know about this.

Alex Ferrari 11:55
That's just Oh, okay.

Natalia Leite 11:58
A lot of stuff that didn't end up in the piece. But anyway, so I was like, wow, this place. Aside from I wanted to put it in my feature film as a location. It deserves a piece on its own right. So I put I pitch to vice. Well, I went there, you know, I had gone there alone filmed a little bit of just filmed on my own a little bit to show a sample of like, what this really is, and then went back and then went to Vice with my friend Alexandra, who I was working with at the time to pitch as like a standalone piece of advice. This was like Eddie Moretti, who was the the, you know, creative there. He was like, Ah, you know, we get pitched like stripper concepts all the time. Like we're not interested in I was like, No, no, no, what universe sound like, I want to go and work there. He's like, Oh, okay. Like you're that's that sounds crazy.

Alex Ferrari 12:49
It sounds

Natalia Leite 12:51
Right. Yeah. And you went and worked and lived there for about 10 days

Alex Ferrari 12:56
So before we continue that story. How did you get to Vice? Because I know a lot of filmmakers would love to have that conversation with somebody advice. How do you how do you approach a company like that?

Natalia Leite 13:05
Yeah, so Okay. I went to a panel where Eddie Moretti was speaking, it was a Tribeca Film Festival organised panel. And at the end of the panel, I cornered him

To say, you accosted him? Got it? I did. So did like 30 other people, right, right, as you do at panels,

As I as you do at panels, and I was like, I have something that you're gonna be really interested in seeing? And he's like, yeah, okay, great. Reach out, and just gave me his assistance, email, you know, and I reached out and I sent him a link to a piece that I had shot. In Cuba. This was like, before every woman that was very, like, I had, you know, edited, like really fast, very, like, by style, and I just sent him the link and I didn't say much else. And he called me like, right away, was like, get come in come in tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just sometimes that stuff works, you know, but you've got to be, like, smart about how you're approaching it. Like, you've people, these people don't have time, right? So it's like, hey, like, what's gonna grab their attention? And what, what do I have that they want? Right? And that was it. Like, I just met him at a panel, there was no, you know, from there, like, it opened up the scope. And then we did every woman and then he called me back to do you know, direct other things and, but that stuff is possible, like the just cold calling, sometimes. Well,

Alex Ferrari 14:34
It does. And I'm actually I'm quite jealous because I am actually Cuban. And I've never been to Cuba yet. So when I saw that piece that you did, I was like, oh, that would have been amazing.

Natalia Leite 14:43
Yeah, he was really special place. I felt really lucky to be there. And at that time, especially and film it.

Alex Ferrari 14:50
So Alright, so So now you're back at Club was a club tool to about two or three because I was just the highway exit, right? So your club 203 and You're there for 10 days.

Natalia Leite 15:01
I'm there for 10 days. And that was me, Alexandra, who, who came in was working with me at the time. And vice sent us with one producer. This was prior to Vice land. So it was a little bit like still, you know, no rules. Like, I mean, we were putting ourselves in dangerous situations like I would fly today. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:23
You think I saw? I saw it? Are you? Are you kidding me?

Natalia Leite 15:26
Yeah. really dangerous. And I don't know that I would do it today. Because now I know a little more.

Alex Ferrari 15:31
Obviously, you're much older, obviously.

Natalia Leite 15:34
I have a lot of gray hair. Interview isn't a video? No, I see what I look like.

Alex Ferrari 15:41
Exactly, exactly. No, I mean, I mean, when I saw it, I was like, This can't be I can't believe that these girls did this. Like this is so and the guys you met were? I mean,

Natalia Leite 15:54
It was a intense Yeah, I think what I realized too, but you know, the whole idea about it was I wanted to go in there to try to debunk what are the stereotypes of the stripper and like why women decide to do this, and the stereotypes of the truckers that go into these clubs, right. And I really feel like, it sort of opened my mind to what's possible, and our what kind of, you know, what the, our like own limitations are and who those people are. And, you know, there's like one woman who we interviewed Daisy, who was talking about how she feels like, it's her calling, it's, she loves doing the work, because she feels like she's a therapist to these men. And that's sort of like, Oh, we we never stopped to think about that, you know, maybe. Yeah, like the that's a version of it. And also some of the guys all across the board, but people just wanted someone to talk to and a connection. And I think it was like a less about being naked and more about them feeling like someone was caring, caring for them and wanting to listen to their stories, you know, of course, that's just there's also then like this, the creepy guy who tries to like, grab you. And

Alex Ferrari 17:05
There's these streams, there's the extremes of both ends.

Natalia Leite 17:08
Right, exactly. But it's not all bad, you know. And we definitely saw that and some of the stories from the men were really intense. And it was hard to listen to

Alex Ferrari 17:17
Let me ask you a question when you were in that when you are in that moment, how, I mean, psychologically? How was it for you? Because I mean, I'm watching this, and I'm going, I'm just thinking to myself, this is your young lady who's put herself in this situation with her friend, for God knows what reason. And and I'm thinking how, what's the psychology What's going on? Because this is not a one one night thing you were there for, for 10 days. This was a day in day out. It's not like, I'm going to try this for one night, and I can go back home, you came back and again and again. And like how did that were on you? Not only as the subject of of it, but also, I mean, you were directing that as well. Correct? Yeah. So how did you do that?

Natalia Leite 18:05
I don't know. I think a lot of sometimes I look back and I think about my best work is stuff that I'm terrified to do, or they're terrified to talk about. And it's almost like, I just keep that I just keep the ball rolling. And then you know, and then eventually it hits a moment when there's no turning back. Right? And you're like, Ah, this is happening, like this is now out in the world. And I feel like this project was exactly that. Like, I was terrified to be there. I mean, it was also having fun with it. But it was just like, really intense, emotionally draining and physically draining. And I was terrified of like putting this out in the world, you know? So

Alex Ferrari 18:45
Because you're, you're exposing yourself and not in that way. But you're exposing your your basically your soft underbelly to the entire world.

Natalia Leite 18:52
Yeah, exactly. So it was just a lot of exposure. But you know, eventually you just hit a deadline. And you're like, you just press send and that's it. And then it's out. It's like has a mind of its own and it's going to be whatever it needs to be. But I think it was just Yeah, like every day was a bit of a challenge. But you just kind of keep going because that's there's no way there's no other way around it. You know, push yourself to keep going.

Alex Ferrari 19:15
No, you are it from from what I see in your work. You are extremely raw and vulnerable. Did that? Is that something that comes naturally to you? Or do you have to work at it to be able to kind of expose yourself as an artist?

Natalia Leite 19:28
Yeah, no, I think it comes naturally to me. I think I'm just naturally have a can tap into that sensitivity and being very empathetic. And you know, I do end up just feeling things intensely. And then sometimes I wonder if that's a hindrance, but more so now I feel like that's an advantage that I'm able to, you know, when I'm connecting with actors just like feel what they're feeling deeply and just look at performance and scenes and just be really connected on it. emotional level, I think it's actually really important for my work.

Alex Ferrari 20:03
And I and you agree that that's probably some of your best work is, the more scary it is, the more extreme, it might be more vulnerable and might be, is where you find that your work really shines.

Natalia Leite 20:15
Yeah, I do. And because that's what I want to be, you know, pushing the conversation forward, I want to be just doing stuff that is making us think about things differently and making us feel more connected. And that sometimes goes in and you know, deals deal with things that we're not talking about. So like, for instance, and even be here now, I wish there was I wanted to do a storyline about a guy who was HIV positive. And how do you deal with that in the dating world? Right. So like, there's just a little piece of it in the scene in the series, but it's like, why are we not talking about this? Right? Like, I have a cousin who's HIV positive. And, and the stories are interesting to me. And there's just not enough of these conversations out there. So but it's always scary, because you're like, Oh, this is kind of going into dangerous territory that is it gonna offend someone like, right, like, you just don't know. And, um, I always try to push myself to, to have those conversations, at least open it up,

Alex Ferrari 21:21
I find that, you know, by doing the kind of work that I do, and also just being a filmmaker myself that it's it's extremely difficult to be raw and vulnerable with your work. And I find that so many filmmakers hide behind falsehoods or create these walls that you can smell on their work. You can just smell it like, Oh, they didn't go all the way. Oh, they just they pull back at the last moment. And it's only the ones that go all the way that you go. Oh, there it is. And you see that in performances, you see that in directors, you see that and writers. So that's why I find your work so interesting. Because you are still early on in your career. I know you're ancient, but you're still you're still early on in your career. And I'm really curious to see the kind of work that you'll do in 10 years. Because you only by the way, being someone who's older than you. You only get braver, I feel as you get older because you start giving less of a shit.

Natalia Leite 22:19
Yeah, you know, it's, it's good to remember that. Thank you. I always like yeah, I always feel like I have to push myself. And it's always scary. But I do like feeling sometimes, like you're just standing on the edge of the cliff, you're like, Oh my god, am I gonna do? Am I gonna do it? And you just have to, like, jump into the waterfall or whatever. You just have to do it.

Alex Ferrari 22:36
Yeah, that's why we're here. That's why we're here. Why are you gonna play it safe? That's not boring. I mean, I'm not going to go and be a stripper for 10 days at a truck stop in Albuquerque. Because that's just not my path. And really, I would get no tips. But nobody wants to see that. You know? Nobody wants to see that documentary, I promise you. So, what was it like with your first feature film bear, which was based, not based on but kind of, in the world of every woman when it got accepted to Tribeca? I mean, what was that experience? Like? I always, anytime I have a filmmaker who gets into like Tribeca or Sundance or Cannes or something like that, I always want to hear the story of when they find out.

Natalia Leite 23:24
I mean, so thrilled you just don't know like, you go into it all just hoping for the best and it was the best It was really the best case scenario for me. It was like I wanted so badly to premiere there. And you're just waiting and waiting. And I was so thrilled and I was so impressed because the festival they do such an amazing job. They take such good care of their filmmakers. We weren't you we didn't know what to expect. But you know, they gave us the red carpet they gave us at party like it was it felt incredible. It was really yeah, it was really phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 23:59
Now I see I see that you like putting yourself in yourself in your work? How do you handle being in front and behind the camera?

Natalia Leite 24:09
So it's a little challenging for me, which is honestly why I'm not putting myself in my work as much anymore because I feel like it's hard for me to focus on two things at once. being totally focused on my character and then also like directing the scene, you know, so I still like throw myself a little scene just for fun because I like that. You

Alex Ferrari 24:31
Pop your pop yourself in once in a while. Sure. Yeah, you'll do your Hitchcock Got it?

Natalia Leite 24:35
Yeah. But I just really I'm staying behind the camera right now because I want to craft the story and I think like just staying you know, more connected to the actress and the whole picture is really important. I really don't know how people are managed to do that. And like being the lead of a movie and also like directing. It seems really hard to me

Alex Ferrari 24:56
Like the Clint Eastwood's of the world and to George Clooney is of the world like I'm like how do you how do you do that? Right?

Natalia Leite 25:02
I mean, maybe like there's a point when you have a really solid support system that you can, you can lean on them. I think for me, I'm still building out, like who those people are. And when I find crew that I love, I'm just like, okay, like, We're family. Now you're coming with me everywhere, because it's so you know, being on set is so intensive, you just want to have that rapport with, you just want to assemble the family that you're going to carry around to every project without question. I

Alex Ferrari 25:31
Mean, my last film I the feature, I just direct that I was in it, unfortunately. And it was, it was difficult for the one scene or two scenes that I did, I was just like, oh, how do you do? How does people to

Natalia Leite 25:44
No it's really hard? Because you can't, you can't be in the moment and also be thinking big picture, or at least I can't

Alex Ferrari 25:50
Write or unless you unless you have that trust behind the camera that you like, Okay, my dp is going to cover me while I'm in the scene. Right? And then and then you just after you're cut, you're like, Was it good? I have no idea. Right? That's how I always did i do think good. Is that and is there is that really, and then all of a sudden, you turn to the actor you like you're looking for, like, approval or like, yeah, did I do good? Can I do it again? But then no one wants to tell you no. But that's when you want that dp to go. Dude. did do it again. Just Yeah. But generally, they're going now it's the light was off. And I'm like, I don't care about the light. I care about the performance right. Now, what do you enjoy to create more narrative features series or documentaries?

Natalia Leite 26:40
I love I love narrative features. I love like having an arc like a very clear introductory, beginning, middle and that we're going through and thinking about how like the character is transforming and that I think series like it can just go on forever, right? So there's like, less of that clear hook. I like just even like, as someone who like read so many psychology books and thinks about how we transform as humans in the world. Like I love that beginning to end journey. But yeah, and I but I also think like sometimes on the, like, features is so hard, I would say like, because you have to have a clear end, right? Like you can't just be like, and then maybe in season two, this happens, right? Like it has to stop. And I like crafting that. And the doc stuff for me. It's just fun because I like dealing with real people. So more. So I've been trying to find ways to merge the two, right? Like puts put real people in my scripted work and then also get actors to be in non scripted situations and surgeons create a fusion of that

Alex Ferrari 27:50
Kind of like Shaun Baker does. I love Shaun Baker. Yeah, I'm a big fan of his work. Sean's awesome. I mean, the Florida project I have no idea why that was not didn't get more issued a one more stuff. It was just

Natalia Leite 28:03
So great. He's Uh, yeah, he's lovely. And we've talked a few times. He's just been really supportive, awesome friend as well.

Alex Ferrari 28:10
Now, tell me a little about your film MFA, which I haven't gotten a chance to see the movie, but I saw the trailer and I was I was again blown away by the by the the subject matter and how you twisted something that normally doesn't get shown that way?

Natalia Leite 28:26
Yeah, so MFA. Leah Mackendrick was the writer on it. She wrote it. And she is also an actress. And she had just seen my work and just send me a cold email and was like, Hi, I'm looking for director I'd love for you to consider this. And normally I'm like, Oh, I don't you know, like, normally this stuff is not good. But when I get these emails, but I read her logline, and she sent me the script, and I was like, oh, wow, like this is really, really strong. And it was just surprising to just get an email like that. And so her and I started talking, she already had some financing in place. It was a small movie. So private investors, piecing it together. And, and yeah, and then we were shooting pretty quickly, but it was it worked out really well. It was like also one of those magical collaborations because we didn't know each other at all. I didn't know any other people that she had already assembled, you know, producer wise for the project. But we all got along really well and made something really special. And the story, you know, has I had like a deep personal connection to it. Having gone to art school, I had been sexually assaulted when I was in art school. So it was almost like, Oh, I have to make this project right. And Francesca Eastwood who played the lead was just I was just so blown away by her and her performance and throwing herself into some pretty difficult scenes. Like talking about like things that make you terrified right? Shooting that rape scene with Francesca was terrifying to me. And I was so and we did so many different cuts of it. And I was so worried that it was. It's truly disturbing. Like a lot of people have imagined, of course, that scene up as like it's too raw and real. And but yeah, you got to just push yourself to go there.

Alex Ferrari 30:22
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And again, when you do that is when it starts to shut the work starts to shine, more and more, if you would have held back there, the movie might not have had the same impact. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it took you tell. Just tell the audience a little bit about the logline, if you will, of the movie.

Natalia Leite 30:47
Yeah. So MFA is about an art student getting her masters of Fine Arts. And she has a crush on a boy in her class, which was played by Peter vac, and he ends up raping her at a party. And she acts she kind of from then on ends up seeking revenge and hunting down slash killing the rapist on campus. So it's a great revenge story, but in a very different tone than what we've seen before.

Alex Ferrari 31:16
It's not as much I spit on your grave?

Natalia Leite 31:18
Not at all. No, no, it's very raw and emotional. It's very much her point of view.

Alex Ferrari 31:24
And really, yeah, it is it is a kind of a, like you were saying it is a little bit of a combination of the real and the fictional, because of the way you shot it, at least from the trailer. It doesn't look like a Hollywood flashy film. But it also doesn't look like a documentary. It looks a little hybrid, hybrid ish.

Natalia Leite 31:45
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I wanted it to be accessible to people, right? So I think about that, too. Like, who's the audience for this, and I want, I want it to be fast and fun, too. And there's a version of it, that could have just been a really depressing movie. And I didn't want to be it. You know, I wanted you to be like, cheering for her and excited when she gets her revenge. And there is a part, especially in the second half of the movie, where it really is more like playing off of the fun and excitement of her getting what she wants. Well,

Alex Ferrari 32:17
There's some humor in the trailer without question. So I can only imagine. Yeah, there's humor in it, though. It's kind of like a bridge of different genres here. Which isn't, which is an interesting take on the subject matter. Because you're right. It could have been it could have just gone straight, dark, real quick, and stayed there. And it's hard to get an audience back from that. But

Natalia Leite 32:37
Nobody wants to watch that. You know, we need to also have some levity and fun with it. We need to be able it needs to feel cathartic for people watching it.

Alex Ferrari 32:45
Now, what are some of your greatest challenges about the process of making films? greatest challenges, I mean, onset creative dealing with Hollyweird dealing well on Hollywood, for sure. How Yeah, how does that work? Like I just can't see you in a room with an agent talking about this stuff. Like I love that term, Hollyweird. No, Tom. Yeah, I mean, I'm an East Coast guy. So I've been out here. I've been out here for 10 years. So I have a completely different perspective on on living out here. I wasn't raised out here. So I see it. And I've been around long enough to just go Yeah, this is Hollyweird. But I've just because so many times here in Los Angeles, people just don't get things that are outside the box, where you live outside the box, you know, you're not ever in the box in any of the work that I've seen. So I would just love to be a fly on the wall. If you have a conversation with a Hollywood agent, or Hollywood producer, or studio like so, Natalia, what would you like to do next? Well, you know, there's this stripper thing that Yeah, I've been really into body horror lately. I've been itching body horror idea. Body. What is it body whore?

Natalia Leite 34:06
Body horror. So like Cronenberg? Yeah. Oh, does a lot of that. Right where it's like horror, but it's really like happening to you and to your body.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
Very, very, I think Disney is involved. I think Disney should get involved.

Natalia Leite 34:20
Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's really interesting. And some people you know, I just keep trying to remind myself because you can try to remind myself to like, stick by my integrity stick by my morals. Just do what I feel is right. And dockets persuaded by these the Hollyweird port part of it, which is a lot of people who just, you know, you know, maybe they're even presenting you with like a shiny opportunity, and it looks really good and you want to go there, right? But you're like, wait, this isn't me, I can't do this or it's an opportunity. That means you'd have to like, like, burn bridges on something else or upset or that you No. So it's like, you just have to stay there. It is a crazy industry. And you have to, I just keep always like checking back into myself and be like, does this make me feel good? Is this me? Like, do I really want to do this? Like, does this represent what kind of work I want to put out in the world? And I think that's so important. I mean, I'm lucky right now, because my agents are actually really awesome. My, my managers as well. And the people that I'm in touch with, but I've, I've circled, I've cycled through agencies, you know, already been in that, like, short career that I've had already, like, jumped around to different agencies. So hopefully, this is the one that I stay with, like long term, because I really like these people. And it's all about the relationships, you know, that you're building?

Alex Ferrari 35:43
And do you have any? What's the like, the greatest challenge of you like onset, like, what's the biggest thing you have to deal with on set, that is just a big challenge for you.

Natalia Leite 35:52
Collaboration, I think collaboration and always try to be super clear with your vision, like from day one, because other people might not get it. Making sure you're on the same page. But it's always hard when you want to push, sometimes it's hard to explain things, right? Like in MFA. I like really want to push for a certain thing, but it's not 100% my project, and the more of work you do are, the bigger the work gets, the more that's going to be the scenario, right? Where there's other producers and other people and weighing in on what the final outcome is. And it can only be your way. So. And while all that can be quite amazing to have that collaboration, it is also like a huge challenge sometimes, how to get people to do what you what you really ultimately want out of it.

Alex Ferrari 36:42
Oh, yeah, I agree with you. 110%. That's

Natalia Leite 36:46
Hard. But you know, you have to, like, make some sacrifices to and I felt like, in every project like that, it was like, Alright, you know, you get this, but then I have to keep I have to keep this thing. But you know what? I'm trying to

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Go I'm sorry, to interrupt you.

Natalia Leite 37:01
So that's it just trying to find a compromise? Like, let's let's split up like so we're both happy here.

Alex Ferrari 37:07
I find that, you know, I've been you know, in my career, I've been challenged on set by crew, people, by actors, by egos constantly. How do you deal with it? Because I could only imagine it being even more difficult. You know, being a female director, it's getting easier. And I can't say from my perspective, it seems like it's getting the doors are opening, cracking just a slight bit more nowadays, than they were 20 years ago. But I can only imagine it being a little bit more difficult, especially if you have a rough crew or something like that. I'm just curious on what you do, and how you deal with that.

Natalia Leite 37:44
It's like, yeah, I think it's it's a challenge. I think also I present, you know, I'm small, I'm like five, four, I'm pretty I'm petite in size to you know, like, Latin, small woman, and look, and you know, people like don't it's and I'm also like, I want to be really friendly with the crew, you know, I want everyone to feel good that they're here on set. But that sometimes that gets like misinterpreted, and people think they can just

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Walk all over you.

Natalia Leite 38:12
Yeah. And I've had to, just to, you know, be really firm. Sometimes they're really like called call out the bullsh that like, hey, do you want to be here? You do actually want to do this? Because you don't have to you can walk away like I've literally said that someone

Alex Ferrari 38:28
You know, so if I Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Natalia Leite 38:32
Yeah. And then they you call them out on their bullshit. They'll be like, Oh, no, what, whoa, whoa, like, they'll step out of it, you know, but I think it's always better to be super upfront, and call it out. And even if that means having a super awkward conversation, than to pretend like it's, you know, that to like, go around to other people or pretend like it's not happening or just be giving someone shady look, right.

Alex Ferrari 38:55
Yeah, it's, it's, I feel sometimes it's like a prison yard. Like they're gonna test you to see what they can get away with. And season crew season crew, if they don't respect the director, it's done. Any crew for that matter. But if a season crew, like a seasoned dp, a seasoned, you know, gaffer and, and production designer, if these guys or girls don't respect you, or think that they can pull one over on you, it becomes a very difficult shoot.

Natalia Leite 39:24
Really difficult. I've also had situations where, you know, I was working with like, season, men, particularly who were like, a lot older than me, and who just couldn't even look me in the eye, you know, like they would be addressing my producer, even though the question was to me, and it was so odd, right? And I just felt like I was like, I have to say something because it's so obvious that this person is uncomfortable that I'm in this position with them, right. They came in, look at me in the face, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 39:59
Yeah, you have to I think the best advice is you just got to call him out on your shit on their shit right away. Because if you let it fester, it can actually grow as a cancer on the rest of the set. Right and exactly and all of a sudden, you've got a mutiny on your hands. And if you're not on a 10 day shoot 20 day shoot you it's gonna be hell, and it's going to be tough to get them back. So what

Natalia Leite 40:20
Are you know what the other thing that that makes me think of is just like, I think sometimes, too, because people I've had so many people tell me like, this is the right way to do it. Right? And I'm like, what is the right way to do it? No way to do anything. There's no right way to do it. And just because, like, yeah, I didn't go to film school. I don't know what the right way to do it. But this is the way that I want to do it. Because I think it works, you know, having people let go of like, the ideas of what is how it's supposed to go, you know, I'm not talking about like union rules or anything just like forms of directing or of putting things together. It's just challenging. Well, no, yeah. I

Alex Ferrari 40:55
Had a conversation with the filmmaker the other day that you know, he does all of his films improv, he does the, you know, Mark duplass style, Joe Swanberg style, you know, kind of work. And I gave the example is like, Look, you know, if you give, you know, Jason Paul, Jackson Pollock, Van Gogh and Dolly, a canvas and paint, they're going to paint a picture differently. Right, the only common denominator is the canvas and the paint and the brush. And only common denominator in filmmaking is an actor, a camera and a lens. You know, and how you tell that story is completely up to you. You know, as long as you get that story in that in that camera, somehow, it's, it's all relative.

Natalia Leite 41:39
Yeah, exactly. Anything else you have to like, push for what is your vision and your style, otherwise, everything ends up the same.

Alex Ferrari 41:45
And one, one piece of advice I got from a director and old school director, I've never done this, I haven't had the balls to do it. But I think it would be fantastic to do it, just use it as a gag, the very first day on any set, nobody knows who you are, bring one of your friends on, and fire them. Just bring that they're just there. They're not supposed to be there. Just bring one of your friends tell them that they're like, you know, a part of a department and they do something wrong. And literally fire them as loudly as you can, in front of everybody and let them take off. And that will set the tone for the rest of the shoot. That was totally set the tone that would terrify people, you know, but I'm not sure if that's the vibe you want on set. But I've always wanted to do something I've never done. I've never had the balls to do it. But I think it would be hilarious.

Natalia Leite 42:35
Hilarious. That was so funny. I mean, that's not my style. Right when people just get along and be exactly

Alex Ferrari 42:43
like, you know, Ron Howard's not doing that, you know, James Cameron probably would.

Natalia Leite 42:48
Okay, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:49
It all depends on the style of directing that you do. So tell me a little bit about your commercial work. I see that you've gotten gotten into that world a bit.

Natalia Leite 42:58
Yeah. So on the commercial side, I've been working with a production company called humble. And I signed with them earlier this year. And it's been amazing, really good team there. And they've we've crafted, you know, they've sent me like already to different parts of the world for different shoots. So I did adopt style shoot in India, for vans, we did a thing for North Face here. And I actually just got back from Saudi Arabia to do another commercial out there, which was pretty wild. So it's been a really rewarding and fun part of my career to be able to travel deal with real people. And have obviously like the money support behind it as well.

Alex Ferrari 43:40
Yes. When you're writing your scripts, it can be very lonely, and the bank account can be very low. Yes, I agree. I I do commercials and series and stuff every once in a while between my features as well. So I completely understand what you're saying. Yeah. So it's been wonderful working with them. So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Natalia Leite 44:05
I would say you have to have a lot of grit. And you have to really stick by what is it that you're putting out into the world? I don't think it's enough to just, you know, here's like, oh, here's like an entertaining story. Like we live in a world where there's like, a lot of change happening constantly. And I'm all about like, what are you saying with this? Why does this deserve to be here in the world for people to watch, right? And just like, Don't give up, there's going to be there's so many people that give up along the way, you know, it's like, there is just be patient and persevere. And that's how you get it. You know, it's like not people want a lot of like immediate gratification. And like you have to enjoy the journey to like constantly keep reminding myself of that, like, yeah, I want to do this big thing, but it could take years, I don't know, I just have to keep going. But I know I'm gonna get there.

Alex Ferrari 45:03
No, I always love when actors or film directors or writers come to LA and they go, I have a six month plan, right?

Natalia Leite 45:13
For these things to happen in six months, but if they don't, don't get involved,

Alex Ferrari 45:18
It's a 10 year plan, minimum,

Natalia Leite 45:20
You have to have the five year plan. I have my five year plan, like every, every and I reevaluate it every year. I'm like, okay, here's where I want to be five years, like, what are the steps to getting there? Like, here's this crazy, big budget project that I've been wanting to do already for a few years. And I feel so strongly about it, I'm not gonna give up on it. I'm just gonna keep finding ways to, to get there. You know, having that like long term vision is really important.

Alex Ferrari 45:48
Nothing you told me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Natalia Leite 46:01
Well, I mean, this is a hard question, just one book, but I watch everyone comes to your mind. You know, I think Rebecca solnit comes to my mind right now because I read all of her books, and I love her writing. And I feel so connected to her voice, and how she thinks about the world. And it's just always like, I've really read her books, and it just always, like, opens up possibilities for me.

Alex Ferrari 46:29
Awesome, awesome. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life confidence I'm still learning it, they you need that we need to have some

Natalia Leite 46:46
That that the lesson being just like, you got to believe in yourself, you know, it is the best lesson to believing in yourself. It's just like, so easy to forget that your voice is important.

Alex Ferrari 46:59
Now, what are the three with what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Natalia Leite 47:06
Three favorite films. Okay, we think for a second. I'm gonna say, I love the piano.

Alex Ferrari 47:21
That's a great movie. I love that movie.

Natalia Leite 47:23
It's a great movie. I've watched that film a few times and was just like, so beautiful. And there's so much emotion behind it. And Holly Hunter is incredible. I love this. This is hard. Wait, let me come back to it.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
It could just be like, it's not gonna be on your gravestone, such as three of your faces. Yeah, don't put it on my gravestone. No, no, it's whatever. three movies come to your mind today.

Natalia Leite 47:54
Okay, I loved fish tank. That's been like a film that I referenced a lot that was really loving trailer and old. There's this filmmaker called busua penzo. That did a film called x x y. Have you seen it?

Alex Ferrari 48:08
Yes. Yes. Yes. I know that movie.

Natalia Leite 48:11
Yeah, I really like her work. I thought that film was just so subtle and emotional and just strong subject matter. Very cool. same vein right now. Maybe that's just how I'm feeling in the moment.

Alex Ferrari 48:23
It's it. Listen, tomorrow, I asked you this question. Yeah, something else? Exactly. It's, it's, again, it won't be on your gravestone, so don't worry. And where can people find you? online?

Natalia Leite 48:36
You can find me on Instagram or Twitter, or on my website, which is just my name. NataliaLeite.com. And I'd love to stay in touch with people I love to talk to people. I always write back so unless you're sending me like a creepy comment.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
Natalia, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your process with us and you are an inspiration to I know a lot of filmmakers who are going to be listening to this. Thank you again for taking the time.

Natalia Leite 49:05
Thank you so much, Alex.

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BPS 418: Drugs, Sex and Higher Love with Slamdance Winner Hasan Oswald

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Alex Ferrari 2:03
I'd like to welcome the show Hasan Oswald, I thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Hasan Oswald 3:11
Of course. Alex, longtime fan. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 3:13
Oh, man, thank you for being on the show. And you are the first filmmaker that I am interviewing from not only the other side of the world, but you can you tell the audience where you're at right now, sir.

Hasan Oswald 3:25
Sure. I'm in northern Iraq, the Kurdish region of Iraq,

Alex Ferrari 3:29
Vacationing,vacationing

Hasan Oswald 3:30
Yeah vacationing, it's really beautiful this time of year 105 at sunrise, its peak. It's awesome. Now I'm working. I'm working on my next project. And I've been working on and on and off for the last year and it came back in February for what was supposed to be a three week wrap trip and going on for months with really no end in sight is all the airports are shut all the boards are shot. So yeah, that's what I'm calling from.

Alex Ferrari 3:56
Like you're basically trapped in a hotel Baghdad, if you you can check it you could check in but you just can't check out.

Hasan Oswald 4:04
You can't check out.

Alex Ferrari 4:06
So before we get to your movie, it's your movie. How did you enter the business man?

Hasan Oswald 4:11
Um, how I got in. So I actually I my film background is very vague. I'm definitely a new face in the business. I I went to something I don't know if you've heard it's a Waldorf school. It's kind of like Montessori based. Yeah. So I went to Waldorf School in upstate New York just outside the city actually. And you actually you do not have to watch movies, no media. So my whole childhood I watched very few movies. We didn't have a TV in our house. And when we finally got one I remember I used to when my parents were out I used to watch TV and then I put an ice pack on the TV because they would come home and feel it to see if I've been watching TV so that's that's how little exposure I had to movies. So I wasn't This movie buff who, you know, had a camera, his dad's camera and learn how to edit on to VCR. That wasn't me. I remember I was I was rad to watch one movie a month. And we just go to this video store giant video that was before like Hollywood video, Mom and Pop around little place. And every time I go in there with these big ideas, I'm gonna watch this new movie. and nine times out of 10 I'd come home with Waterworld. And I have no idea why but Waterworld was my was my go to and I just absolutely loved it. And I still I still love it. So I didn't have any kind of a background in film, I would go to Costco and had all the TVs lined up and my mom would go shopping and I'd get my TV in there. And I was so it was really a precious, precious finite resource for me. So I didn't have that background. And after I went to school at Villanova, I studied creative. I was an English major, but studied creative writing and had some journalism, journalism minor or concentration. And so I always had a interest in storytelling. I wrote a good bit of novel novella, short story, that kind of stuff ever any screenwriting, but as always fascinated with storytelling. And when I graduated, I had no idea what I was going to do. I applied and was accepted to work on a cattle ranch in Australia, they still have these, you can still be a cowboy in Australia, million cattle ranches. And then my visa got messed up. So kind of on a whim, I moved to Thailand to become an English teacher. I just had no idea what I wanted to do. And there goes here's our watch time so I had no idea

Alex Ferrari 6:51
So for people for people listening he since he's in Iraq, there are power sword surges or outages every every Yeah, so every few minutes, but everything is on a on a journey. So we won't lose his connection. But if you're watching, he will go Blair Witch.

Hasan Oswald 7:07
Exactly. So only my fingers is lit off about every 15 minutes. So yes, so in Thailand, I went to be an English teacher. So I wanted to do this kind of European gap year, I spent a lot of time abroad as a child. And I wanted to kind of gap here and find out when I was doing really film I still film was not a big part of my life. I you know, I love and love, love actually like till then I was certainly not watching. Certainly not watching old classics. If it's in the theater, if it was

Alex Ferrari 7:48
You know, sitting there watching like Kurosawa and Scorsese,

Hasan Oswald 7:52
Who. So we, as a teacher in Thailand, we would take a lot of trips. And I mean, it was just, it was incredible life. We live there, and we had a GoPro. And so we would film everything. And this is right about the time where you could get 1080 on I got an Android. So really in your pocket, you had a bunch of good resources for pretty cheap. And so all my friends had these GoPros and cameras, and so we take trips, weekend trips to Vietnam, bus trips to LAO, and we just gather material and then at the end, we were like, Alright, what are we gonna do with this? And so I was like, Alright, I think I can do this on iMovie I can do something. So I remember I laid a track down it was Moby play, which is got to be the most overused

Alex Ferrari 8:45
Oh, Most sampled album in history.

Hasan Oswald 8:51
Yes. And it was glorious. So it was that, uh, that paradise song from the beach?

Alex Ferrari 8:57
Yeah, I know. It's in my head right now. I don't have the rights to it. And I can't play it on the show. But I have it in my head, sir.

Hasan Oswald 9:02
Yeah. So the beach, the film The beach with Leo. That was the soundtrack. That's why we used it. And I remember I remember cutting to the music and loving it. Like I thought this is really cool. I mean, it was trash put it I mean, trash, but I really liked it. It was we were creating something. Um, so we were just doing that on the side and teaching I still had no I had given up drip my journalism routes as well. I was throwing through an English teacher. I had I felt I was teaching second grade, seventh grade and I fell in love with my class. So I thought I got it. I applied and got accepted to Columbia to do my Master's in education. I was going to come back to New York City and become an English teacher and that was my career. About a year and a half in. We were set to renew, renew, renew our contracts and instead My friends and I, we quit, or didn't renew our contracts and just traveled throughout the region. We tried to go by train from Southeast Asia, all the way to Europe. So there's trains all the way up. And then we took the Trans Siberian cross, and we recorded the whole thing. When I got back to Europe, I had a bunch of new footage. And I added, I, we called it or I called it 1818 countries in 18 minutes, and there's an 18 minute video that went on Vimeo, and it made the front page or a front page, I think the travel of the front page of Reddit 10,000 views I think, which was just I can't imagine, I still can't imagine why 20 people watched it. And it's still one of my favorite things I've ever created. It was the first thing I ever created. And just the feedback from that. And the kind of the creative process that went into it. I just I fell in love with, I guess then editing. And I still had no idea how to shoot, but because I taught myself editing through YouTube tutorials. Just books. I, I could edit, I just couldn't shoot at all, but I knew I could teach myself to shoot. And of course, that's when I found Rebel Without a crew. And I thought, oh, wow, like this, this can be done. And of course, it was stupid travel videos. But those travel videos turned into kind of my education. And so I didn't go home. When I got to Europe, and do my Master's in education. I stayed in Barcelona and started doing these freelance gigs. totally fake it till you make it. I remember I connected. I remember I went to different hospitals. And I'm still teaching part time at an international school in Barcelona at this time to kind of make ends meet. But I remember I went to a hospital. And I said, Oh, I make these promo videos. Can I do one for you? Because each hospital in Barcelona, I've got a party night. And I don't know. So they said, Sure. Just send over your reel. I was like, My what? So I remember doing my first kind of Franken cut off Rip Cut off of different people's videos on YouTube. I mean, it was that will never see the light of day again. And then so and then I did another kind of similar thing to with my friend had an apartment complex used to rent to students and I remember pulling my camera on a string across a marble countertop. Yeah, my Pan Pan shot. So that was kind of the the the genesis of of how I got into film and

Alex Ferrari 12:50
That's awesome. Yeah, no, that's a really that's, that's I always loved hearing these stories, because everyone has a different path in and obviously you found your path and kind of Miranda around literally continents, trying to figure find this out. So let's get to your film, hire love. Tell me about hire love and how it came about?

Hasan Oswald 13:12
Sure. So I guess just kind of a brief synopsis. It follows a man named Daryl Gant in Camden, New Jersey. Darrell is a factory man from Camden. And he his long term girlfriend, Nani are ginetta. She is a heroin addict on the streets of Camden. And how she pays for that habit through various while she lives and works in the streets. And she becomes pregnant. And so the first half of the film follows his obstacles his journey well to every morning, he leaves she she leaves the house runs away to Camden. And it's his journey to find her over two years. And then once the baby is born, a different journey begins. So it's on the surface. It's this, this search for the love of his life. And he as he tries to protect his unborn baby. But it's also each obstacle that Dale faces it. It's kind of a obstacle that a lot of these cities face. It's not just Camden. It's you know, Flint, Michigan, Cleveland, these post industrial cities that the American Dream is kind of crashed and burned in. So that's kind of what the movie is about. And it it came about kind of in an interesting way. So if we backtrack a little bit, I still was doing travel films. But they were kind of turning into a more more interview based we're doing. I remember getting darker and the people were filming these travel films for we're like, we don't want to listen to the Sri Lankan lady about losing our family and the tsunami of cheese like we we will Yeah, we want to we want to live. We want Wanna hear about the best beaches in Sri Lanka? So already the disconnect was beginning. So at the end of filming that travel show, it was my now ex girlfriend and I, we both, both things were coming to an end. So it was time to do something different. And so at the end of that travel show, I went to Lesbos, Greece, where the refugee, so that's where the Syrian refugees were, they kept drowning in the Mediterranean, doing that crossing into Europe and their raft. And so I went there with more skills than I had and better cameras, but still very new. And this was kind of my first documentary. And I made, I joined a rescue squad. They're the ones who pull the rafts and the people from the from the ocean. So I joined a rescue squad bear and did a 15 minute short, and came back, edit it myself, colored it myself, figured out that color was the thing. So yeah. And I thought, Alright, here we go. Like I have a 15 minute Doc, this is good. I don't know, 700 views. Maybe? It was it was that was gonna be my big ticket. And I'm living. I'm out of money. I don't know if this film thing's gonna be, you know, if this is my way,

Alex Ferrari 16:29
Right. But then Jesus, I had to go to do a very not uplifting documentary in the streets of Camden.

Hasan Oswald 16:37
Right. So well, how that came around was maybe a month after this film's public, the refugee film was published. Stephen Fry tweets it. And then a few more, Neil Gaiman. guimond is the author of a few bigger names, tweets, tweet it. And then I get, you know, 100,000 views under this amazing one, 1000 views. And from that, so National Geographic saw that saw a tweet. And they call me and I'm living in Boulder at the time with my with my girlfriend. And they so gold crest films was contracted by natgeo. So they're making a film for natgeo. And the director and Nick quested and Sebastian, younger, they call me and are the existing calls me and says, Hey, can you come do the Can you, the director would like to meet you? And so I'm thinking, Oh, great. This is an interview. So I get up, packed up. And then right before I leave, I email them. I say, hey, just making sure we're on for tomorrow and interviews in New York. So we're on for tomorrow, no response. So I'm like, Alright, I gotta go. So I just fly to New York on miles, get out of the airport, go to the interview, go to the interview spot. And I'm just thinking, like, I don't think I have an interview. And so I go, and like five minutes before they respond to my email. They're like, Yeah, he's still planning on me meeting you. And from there, within a week, we hit it off. And within a week, it was my first kind of film job ever. I had $10,000, taped to my chest, heading across Turkey meeting with smugglers. I'm with the director. He's teaching me all these things, all these cameras. And so this is my first documentary, real documentary experience. And I just, I fell in love with it. And I came back and I continued working for them, and learned a lot of great stuff. But after about a year, it was time to move on. And that's where I knew that I wanted the whole time, I knew that I would. Eventually, if I was going to fail, I'm gonna fail big. So I knew I wanted to direct and my father's from Camden, New Jersey, where higher load takes place. Got it. It was I had no budget, I'd son save some savings. For my time with the natgeo film campaigns, only a two hour drive from New York. Because my family my dad's family is all from now they all still live in the surrounding area. So I knew that all I was gonna have to pay for with gas money. I had a strong enough backing and editing and filming and producing that, well, I didn't have a choice. I had to wear all the hats. But I knew that I could make this movie and Camden kind of had this. Throughout my life or just from my dad's background there, I've kind of had this morbid curiosity with that city and cities like it, as you mentioned, like the post industrial decline the empty factories. It's America's most dangerous city or one of them for the last decade. So I thought, you know, this is a story that needs to be told.

Alex Ferrari 19:38
Now. So what was the budget of this film? If you'd want me asking?

Hasan Oswald 19:43
The budget was less than zero.

Alex Ferrari 19:45
Okay,

Hasan Oswald 19:46
To start. It was a it was I, I knew that a camera and a dream, basically a camera and a dream. So I knew I was gonna have to do everything to start at least before I could kind of To show people that, that this was a project worth investing in, this was a project worth joining. So I had some savings, as I mentioned, but I would so there are still expenses, this food, although my uncle was amazing with that he's an associate producer on it on the film. He took great care of me, but there's still food, there's still gas, there's still, that's a lot of stuff that go into it. And so to make ends meet, there is a lot of tricks that I used to start, I knew right away, I could sell my blood. So I've sold my blood plasma, twice a week. 50 bucks a pop. And that was more than enough to make ends meet to get going. And then and then I need a drone. And then I needed another lens, zoom lens, and then I needed other things. So we would it's it's not a lot of blood, but it's it's a lot of fun out there. We're out of blood, the blood, literally the bank.

Alex Ferrari 21:07
Literally suck the blood out of you.

Hasan Oswald 21:10
Out of it. Yes. So the next step was I figured out that and I had nothing to edit for I made the mistake of filming and it turned out fine. But I couldn't edit 4k on my laptop. So I needed a new laptop. So what I would do was, this is frowned upon, but I would go to Apple and I buy their best system. And then I edit for 30 days straight 29 days straight and then I'd return on the system. Because there was no restocking fee, there was no anything. Right. And so that's how I was doing the Edit. And then I was the next 30 days when I didn't have an editing system and I didn't want the local Apple Store to become wary. I would shoot that whole time the next month so what I would do

Alex Ferrari 21:52
3030 on 3030 off

Hasan Oswald 21:55
and then the next 30 on was for lenses do the same thing for lenses camera body steady cams at Best Buy a 29 day rental for free. So that's how I was that I had an amazing kit. I had you know top of the line stuff rented and I know you know i it skirts the bounds of efficacy but

Alex Ferrari 22:18
You know I look. Sometimes you've got to as a as as the as the the glorious Axel Foley once said, Sometimes you've got a fracture and occasional law. And you don't break it. It's just kind of bend it a bit and look you are working with in those guidelines. Look, when you're starting out, you do what you got to do to make it happen. You're not the first person I've ever heard that the Best Buy deal. I'm sure people listening now they're like, wait a minute, you could do what a Best Buy. I'm like, Yes, you can go to Best Buy, buy the best camera you want and use it for 30 days. I did not think about Don't drop it. Yeah, don't drop it. Don't scuff it. It's got to be it's got to be pristine, because they will check. But if you're good, you've got a hell of a kit. I never thought about Apple because I've never there was no Apple computers when I was coming up anyway, like that. They there was no Apple stores, let's say. So that's interesting. So that you would edit and what did you edit in just out of here? I'd like Final Cut or veggie?

Hasan Oswald 23:23
Yeah, so I learned I learned in Thailand on iMovie. And then I taught myself Final Cut, Final Cut 10 and then quickly moved into premiere because I remember I was back in the studio one day and they were like, what are you using Final Cut? I was like, Yeah, what am I using Final Cut? I have no I still don't know what I prefer. What's better, but now? Yeah, we did the whole editing in Premiere.

Alex Ferrari 23:45
Okay. that's, that's amazing. So, so you would you would edit one month that go shoot footage for another month, then go back and buy another laptop and edit for the next 30 days. How long did you keep this up?

Hasan Oswald 24:01
Yeah, cool. And we used to use different credit cards. We used to use like I borrow my mom's credit card and then Venmo her the money and then she went she'd get the money return on our account and then we use my uncle's credit. It was it was bad. So I mean, I probably did that on and off for about eight months. Oh, that's amazing. So probably four rentals from each rental area.

Alex Ferrari 24:29
I'd like to rent us I love that I love that you've now just automatically just called it a rental even though it is absolutely not a rental but yes

Hasan Oswald 24:38
yes. zero budget rental

Alex Ferrari 24:41
Cheeses. No, I mean look like I said sometimes you got to do what you got to do to make it happen and and it's it worked. It worked. Yeah. Did you did you keep any of it ever or is it all gone?

Hasan Oswald 24:55
No. So I mean, we we eventually kept once we brought on a little Money we kept stuff that I'm still using. And but it also I mean, it really caught I think having zero, that zero budget kind of made the movie what it was. We were going to there are other we would go to. If you go to eBay, eBay, YouTube, you can learn how to make a $1 $2 rig with pvc piping. Oh yeah. And so we learned all that stuff too. We would buy all our stuff aftermarket on eBay, it would take you know, four weeks to get there from from China, we could never have anything that we really needed. But um, so we use those tricks also. And then yeah, once we found out kind of our go to kit essentials, we kept those. I got a laptop that can handle 4k. And so while we were coming up, we were, you know, playing with some ethical boundaries, but we eventually got on the straight and narrow and did it the right way.

Alex Ferrari 26:03
Look, I mean, I'm assuming you know who Werner Herzog is? Of course, yeah. Okay. So Warner, you heard that story of him with the with the papers. Yeah, with 4g. He literally forged his papers to get when the police came to wherever he was shooting, he forged papers proving that he was able to shoot there. You do what you got to do. You know, as long as you're not hurting anybody or literally stealing, literally stealing. Yeah, you do what you gotta do?

Hasan Oswald 26:33
Yeah, and we did a lot of that stuff, too. I mean, Werner vanner was one of my original inspiration. So yeah, we copied a lot of that stuff with just fake it to make it and if they're gonna assume something going into a shoot, you know, I guess I didn't tell them I was with HBO. But if they're gonna call me the HBO boys, I didn't say it. Someone else said it. So like, we we faked it till we made it with a lot of those tricks.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
Did you? Did you have an HBO shirt answer? Is that, that HBO hat that you bought it? At the souvenir shop in downtown Manhattan?

Hasan Oswald 27:10
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 27:14
Look, look. I mean, look, I could tell you stories and stuff I did. And when I was coming up, I mean, I don't think I've told this story on this show before but when I my first edit reel was based off of raw footage that I got, from an OS from a European group of filmmakers that came into my commercial house that I was in Miami, and I grabbed all their footage and I re edited distance was insane, like million dollar budget footage, re edited, it all slept the Nike Nike logo at the end of it. And I cut together five or six reels, and then I quit. And I went out with that reel. And people were like, they assumed that I was that guy. When they asked I would go No, no, no, that's just a speck spot. But if they didn't ask, there you go. Yes. Exactly. You know, it's, if you assume that's up to you, you know, it's like I was asked for forgiveness, not for permission. Yes, shoot, shoot birth. escalator. Yes. As my entire my entire last film was Sunday. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Alright, so alright, so you've sold plasma? Or you have you have skirt the line of the return policies over at Apple and Best Buy for eight months? And and then you've gotten you finally got some money together? And then how did you remember you saying to me that you kind of mariachi camp done a little bit in the sense that you became very well known in the area? Can you tell us a little bit about how you kind of started having almost free rein in that in that town?

Hasan Oswald 28:49
Yeah, so I think having no money helped us in a bunch of ways. Like, for example, I mentioned that we didn't have, I didn't have a zoom lens, I was filming everything with a fixed lens. And so there are some really great shots where we wouldn't have gotten and I had this incredible access to my characters and out because I had to be I was a foot away from them. And it lends this kind of like raw, this pure Verity almost, that I wouldn't have gotten if I could afford a zoom lens, I had to go in without a foot of all my characters. And I think that kind of was the case. In one way or another with a lot of these things. I didn't have a producer, I didn't have anybody. So I had to go to Camden, which is, you know, it's one of the most dangerous cities in America. And I was terrified and I had to go knock on doors and meet these characters where they were. So I would go you know, I'd start out I'd go to town meetings and kind of find out who the town leaders were and the different advocacy groups and then I would branch out to I would go knock on the door. Have were known drug houses, but I would be with one of those town advocates. So they would kind of give me an ounce of credibility.

Alex Ferrari 30:10
It's like Donnie Brasco. They were Donnie Brasco when you like he's a good guy. Yeah, it's fine. He's a good guy. Exactly. he's a he's a real guy. He's a CSV, okay. csv. Okay.

Hasan Oswald 30:19
Yeah, trust him. So, they, I mean, they really appreciated that. Camden, it's been a drive by a guest to drive by city, but also a drive past city, a flyover city, one of the first titles for our film, actually, for a long time, it was titled below the brine. It's, it's after a Thai poem by Walt Whitman, who's actually from Camden. And it's about this world that exists below the brine below the surface of the ocean that nobody ever sees. But there's life down there. There's heartbreak down there. It's society down there. And that's Camden. They, you know, they build the retaining wall in the highway, so you can't see into it. No one goes into this place, no one talks to these people and learns their story. So when I was knocking on doors, just because I had to, I didn't have a producer. They really appreciated that. And so the guy was nice.

Alex Ferrari 31:13
I'd like how did you how did you? Because I mean, from watching portions of the film, like ye they're doing not only illegal things that you end, but they're allowing you to come in film this. Some of it's extremely personal. And yeah, I mean, there's there's characters who are high on screen, there are characters who are pregnant and high. And there's, there's so many, like, how did you get them to agree to do this? Like, what, what was in it for them for them to be able to allow such access to their lives?

Hasan Oswald 31:47
Yeah, and, yeah, a portion of why they did that always comes down to an aspect of they will, people want to be on TV, you know, the second a camera turns on, no matter what anyone says, it changes the dynamic, however, I think because I where I went and met them where they were talked to them first. And really, I didn't just come in for a weekend and film a bunch of people shooting up. I knew them became really entrenched in their lives. Night after night, day after day. They respected that I wanted to and this is how I approached it, I wanted to tell their story, the story of Camden, the story of this opioid epidemic, I want them to tell it, so I wanted to see it through their eyes. And they right away, kind of, we're open to that. And one of the first scenes in the motel where our pregnant character is injecting was my first kind of realization of what trust and what access they had given me. And that carried for the next year and a half. And after that motel scene, I received a very angry phone call from who turned out to be the protagonist of the film, Darrell, about filming with his pregnant drug addicted wife, long term girlfriend and was very angry said meet me the next day, I thought, why the film's over, maybe my life is over. And he basically just he pulled up, he said, Listen, let me tell you my side of the story. And so that's where we learned his side of the story. Every morning, he wakes up goes to search for Nani who's trying to save his unborn child. And so when he said, let me tell you my side of the story, I think that's why I was so embraced by cam tonight. because nobody's given these cities a seven second look, no one. No one, no one ever stops to say, oh, you're living on the streets, in in on heroin highway, as they call it, in America's most dangerous and one of America's most dangerous cities. You know, how did you get here? What What went wrong? Why people think, you know, who in the right mind says, I want to give up everything, lose my kids, my house, my car. I want to give that all up and live in a gutter for 1510 years. If I'm lucky, no one stopped to ask the question of how they got there. They just treat them you know, as animals almost. And so that trust was kind of achieved right from the beginning of me even coming into their doorstep. And then they just gave me the permission almost to give the means the agency to tell their own story.

Alex Ferrari 34:36
That's That's fascinating. You're right, these stories are a little too few and far between. and, and a lot of the stuff that's going on right now, back here in the states that you have been safely in Iraq avoiding which is Corona and and what's going on with the death of George Floyd. I think that's one of the reasons why these There is such uprising here now is because, yeah, it's because of stories like this that that these these people have have been handicapped from the moment they were, you know, they were evicted from their womb, their mother's womb. Yes. Yeah, you know, there's no doubt about it. And these stories are so, so important. And that's why it's so much more beautiful on the way how you did it. Which, like, if you told me like, yeah, we have like two 300,000, we had an Alexa. We shot with cook lenses, we had a full rig, it wouldn't have you can't make this movie like, you need to. You need to go to Best Buy an apple and do what you did. It goes to the whole story. Now. Now, this is your first feature, right? This was your first feature?

Hasan Oswald 35:46
Yeah, it's my first feature. It's only the second. My only my second credit. So I worked on that National Geographic film. So I was really, I'm still of course learning everything as I go. But that was my film school. That that a year, year and a half in Camden. That was my film school, you'll see. I mean, if you look at our Instagram, you'll see some funny things of a first time director. But also, there's so many stories of I had no idea what was what I was doing at the beginning, especially, you'll notice things in the film, if you watch it with a close eye that I can point out after you watch it. It's a first time filmmaker it but we did do an amazing, they did an amazing job of saving a lot in post and it looks incredible. But there's some funny things that I learned the hard way.

Alex Ferrari 36:33
But did you but the question is, did you wear a director hat or a director t shirt?

Hasan Oswald 36:38
No, I just carried the chair around. And you know that like that, that gift where the guy just unfold the chair and sits at a director's chair.

Alex Ferrari 36:49
I I always make a joke because when when I was first coming up, I had the director hat and a director t shirt on because that's what a just a pompous film student would do. So anytime I see a director walk on set with a director shirt on, I'm like, Oh, god, oh, god, oh, no, this is not going well, this is not going to go well. And every single time has ever happened. I've never I've never been disappointed. So you you submit your films to all these film festivals, right? And not only did you get into slam dance, but you also got some interest from South buy of this of this last year. So can you tell me what happened between slam dance and south by? And then how did it actually? How did it all workout?

Hasan Oswald 37:35
Sure. So we we really, I'm not the only young filmmaker on this team. It's really an inexperienced team of four people probably still is, which I love. And now we're actually really good. So we really didn't really even know what we're doing going to festival season either. So we got into slam dance. That was our first. Well, first we got rejected by Sundance, obviously. I mean, we all fantastic. Yes, exactly. It was our first you know, welcome to the Welcome to the show. And then we got into slam by which we were really blown away. And for those, we were unfamiliar, I was unfamiliar, but it happens the same exact week, the same time as Sundance. So actually, if you say it fast enough. Oh, yeah. Honestly, a lot of people think so we post on social media and a lot of my university friends. They just assume I once Sundance and there's no I'm not gonna correct them

Alex Ferrari 38:42
Again HBO HBO guys. HBO

Hasan Oswald 38:45
HBO guys. Yeah, we're HBO guys who won Sundance. So we got into slam dance. And it was just it was an incredible, incredible week. But we had Sunday slamdance deadline to accept was right around the same time that South by was their deadline was for their notification deadline was and in our minds, my mind at least I would lean toward not anymore, of course, but I was going to lean toward our premiere at South by just has the big name. And just as a first time filmmaker, I just was going by the name. So there was disagreement within the group. Eventually we decided we're going to premiere at slam dance. We ended up not getting in to south by so we're at these parties and everything and we're retelling the story and how we chose to premiere at slam dance and it turned out that through various programmers, I guess and I'm not 100% sure on this but um the rumors on the street, the rumors on the street. The rumors are street that South by does not take kindly to slamdance Especially if you're wanting to choose between the two. And we had gotten kind of a cryptic email from south by that before we got the rejection email, and so they knew we were choosing between the two. And we chose slam dance and didn't end up being accepted to south by, which turned out so we won grand jury at slam dance so amazing, the best, the best choice. And then a week after we come home COVID hits and south by is the first one to go. So it really was the right the right decision. They are all worked out in the end.

Alex Ferrari 40:39
Now what was your What was your Sunday slash slam dance? Park City experience like because you were you were like Fresh Off the Boat. This is your first movie you've never been it is your first film festival if I'm not mistaken, right? Like,

Hasan Oswald 40:55
I didn't even I couldn't even I wasn't exactly sure what I knew what a film festival was. Obviously, I thought of it more as like a market. And then my only background is the entourage episode, which I watch. You know, again, right before I left, right and I'm so I'm a director. I'm going to a major film festival. I'm picturing a lot of entourage stuff. And there was a lot of entourage stuff. I mean, we already is amazing parties. Yeah, we had a great PR team that hooked us up. We went to like the cinetic party. We went to the HBO HBO party of course,

Alex Ferrari 41:32
obviously because you the HBO guys.

Hasan Oswald 41:35
So we had a great time there was you know, the hot tubs the late nights, it was amazing. But then there was also the side. So that was the entourage side. And then your film comes to mind at the corner of ego and desire. So these, For those unfamiliar, you shouldn't be it's a great movie, go watch it. But it's three young filmmakers go to Sundance to try to pitch their film, and everything kind of falls apart. And so we had a lot of those moments. We, you know, we just first time everything, and I didn't, and I just didn't know anything. So there was a lot of mistakes made. You know, what's a sales agent? You need one, we went in very, very excited. But I'm excited in green. So it was a brilliant mix of the entourage episode and and your day in your film.

Alex Ferrari 42:27
No. And I mean, I've been there. As you know, I've been at slam and Sundance many, many times over the years. And slam dance is an experience. And I love slam dance. As you can see, I have my I represent this lambdin shirt all the time I do. I do love them. I always found myself even though I was rejected from slam dance, and I'll call them out all the time because Dan, co owner, co founder was in it. And I still got ridin Yeah. But to be fair, I think I said the word Sundance like 50,000 times in the movie, so they probably didn't want to promote slam dance. Like we were talking about that earlier. Like, you know, maybe I would have just said slam dance slam dance, slam dance. Oh, they would have accepted it in a heartbeat. But of course we always go for the for the girl that doesn't want us. Yes. The hot girl that teases us constantly. That is that's the relationship with 99.9% of every filmmaker ever.

Hasan Oswald 43:26
And then we keep saying that. So southpaw was the hot girl that didn't want us and then it got canceled. So every time we don't get one, we're like well that hot girl is about to go down cuz it's gonna get canceled and it keeps happening.

Alex Ferrari 43:37
Yeah, God knows what's gonna happen in the future. I you know, I'm still in the in the camp of I don't think Sundance is going to happen in 2021 in the same way, I can't you know, I can't even imagine it happening. But we'll see. But you once you say you won southpaw. Excuse me, you, you you excuse that you want slam dance. You want the jury, the Grand Jury Prize is slammed. So that's a big, that's a big deal. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Hasan Oswald 44:14
We were just it was really just a dream. It was. I still I'll never forget when they call her name like it was. I mean, I blacked out just from the adrenaline. I'm not even sure what I ran up there. I'll never look at what what that acceptance speech was. Yeah, I'll tell you the Alex was not good. It was it was fine. It was bad. But um, it was Yeah, it was just it was a dream come true. When that and then we so that was our first festival. It's the you know, the first festival, one of the first festivals of the year. And so from that we got waiver waivers to maybe everywhere and can't It was so strange being contacted to show your film. So we just We just this weekend we did our European premiere at Krakow in Poland, which is an amazing festival. Yeah, and we're, I think one or if not the only North American film, selected for competition. And it was online, which was a new experience. But that was right off of we actually got the news about Krakow right after the grand jury win. And then also, we were accepted this past week. Sorry, we were in this past week in Brooklyn, where we won best new director and Spirit Award for, for Documentary Feature loss. And so that grand jury win, just, yeah, that snowball into everything. And we have a bunch of festivals coming up, that are either going to go online and be canceled.

Alex Ferrari 45:47
So I want I want to clear exactly who knows what's gonna happen. So I want to I want to be real clear. So I want to bring this and you've been listening to my podcast now for a while, and everyone who's listening automatically, but he won slam dance, like he won the Grand Jury Prize it slammed and so that so when the when the trucks of money came? Did they just did they unload by the pallet? Or did it just dump it all on your front yard? How does that work? They just they delivered it in their hands, a little bit at a little, little by little, just like a little 14, the 14 quarters, the fourth thing called the 40 quarters that they gave me, I want I want people to just understand that just because you win the Grand Jury Prize at a major festival like slam dance, it does not mean that you automatically get checks. It's not 1994 anymore.

Hasan Oswald 46:38
No. And we have that kind of a lotto ticket dream. And I will stick by that it is important to have a dream. But also, it's also important, and I'm so happy I I didn't have any money. So I actually had to build up technical skills. Sure, along the way, while maintaining that lotto ticket dream. So yeah, when we when we won grand jury, I thought, you know, here comes HBO again, again, comes up, here comes the big deal, like Netflix is calling flicks. And we did yeah, and we got all those calls, and it's a lot less money than you would think, a lot less money to any deal any offer that you would think there's no truckloads of money coming. And we found that out pretty quickly. However, I will say that it not only did it open up doors for other festivals, which is really, really important for a young team, such as ours. And I know festivals, I learned this the hard way festivals, you know, they don't, we can win a Grand Jury. And still, that's not going to move the needle on a higher even when three grand juries it's not gonna move the needle on a higher, it doesn't make sense, like people like your movie, but it's not gonna move the needle on your, your your distribution deal. So festivals really aren't going to do much for that. We found that out. But it really did. These festivals are great for myself and the team. Even so I'm in Iraq filming now. And we have some really big names attached to this film. This is the my second film directing. And that's all from, I'd say 90%. From these festival wins. Yeah, it lends credibility. So know that we're not, we're gonna be lucky in all honesty right now to break even even though our budget was so so we kept it so low. And down the road, hopefully, we're turning it we're working on a narrative version as well. So hopefully that will drive interest that way as well. But it it pays off in ways such as now I'm over here filming, as I like to call it my real directorial debut since I actually know what I'm doing now. I couldn't have done that. I couldn't have patched these names to it. Without without that grand jury win.

Alex Ferrari 49:04
Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. filmmakers need to understand that the film festivals, especially if you're a new filmmaker, oh, my film festivals are the best. Like, yeah, you got to go into the red carpet into the parties and meet other plumbers. It's amazing. It's wonderful. Take, you know, go to those seminars, go to those workshops, you know, meet people network, it's great for all the obviously that's been put on hold right now for the next foreseeable future. Because of COVID. But when it comes back, it's still a wonderful experience to go through. But I am just constantly beating my audience over the head that it is not 1994 anymore. This is not what it was. They don't have the same kind of poll as it did before. So but they do have a place in the ecosystem without question, and I would have killed to go through your experience like I've never gone through that experience. Like I've been to hundreds of festivals, and won awards and all that kind of stuff, but I've never won a Grand Jury Prize at slam das nor have ever been yet at slam dads are accepted into slam dance. But that's amazing, dude, that's an amazing story. And I'm glad that that you did it the way you did it and you're trying to get the story told and get it out there. And it's not over yet the story's still continuing, you still got to figure out how you're gonna make money back with this what type of distribution deal you're going to finally land on. If you're going to self distribute, there's a lot of different avenues you can go down.

Hasan Oswald 50:24
Yep. So yeah, definitely, it's, yeah, it's exciting. It's still very exciting. And mistakes will still will be made. But at least there is gonna be we have more people on the team who know what they're doing a sales agent, good PR, good, good. Everything. So mistakes will be made. And it's it's still a learning curve. But um, yeah, it was definitely a great experience.

Alex Ferrari 50:47
Awesome, man. I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all the guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today? Obviously go to Best Buy an apple and do your trick. But besides that?

Hasan Oswald 50:59
Yeah, um, so I guess for advice for someone who did it like myself with no zero film background besides. Waterworld. And

Alex Ferrari 51:12
By the way, it's like a side note. I did have the screenwriter of Waterworld on the show. But we never he did on a documentary. I had never talked to him about Waterworld once, but I found out later a failure is a complete failure I have to get I have to get him back a paragraph to get Peter back on just to talk about Waterworld. But yes, I found out later after I interviewed him, because we were just focused on his documentary that I did. But yes, so Waterworld is like your godfather. It's kind of like your Star Wars

Hasan Oswald 51:39
It is my godfather. Yes. So I guess advice for a real real new. I was an English teacher. So I had my my baseline was zero. So for someone and you can right now is a brand new filmmaker. I mean, you can buy amazing 4k, you know, five year or a seven s, you know you can get those bodies for how to use for 1000 right now, even if you don't want to do the return trick. You can film 4k amazing 4k in your cell phone as everyone knows. So

Alex Ferrari 52:14
Look like a Panasonic G gh four, I can get that usually, for under 50 bucks.

Hasan Oswald 52:20
Yep, yep. And then you can also learn how to you can learn everything I'm so not only did I learn the three different editing software's just on YouTube, but still, when I have a problem, you know, I was trying to figure out how to pin a graphic in, in Premiere the other day. And I just googled those words how to pin data in in Premiere, and there's 50 tutorials how to do it. So really, all the resources are right there, the gear for the first time is available. So if you're a brand new filmmaker, just kind of do it, I did just get a camera and go do it. Now keep your expensive expenses low. So choose a story. I really want to tell a story that, you know, really, really moves them. But meat meat in the middle do one that you care about, but it's also doable. So I you know, I stayed with family I could drive to and from Camden. So yeah, I would say just kind of go do it. And there is this kind of I don't know how to say it not. There's a hierarchy in film. And a lot of the older generation, especially if you get into these editing houses that have been around for a while. They're going to want you to pay reduce. And I ran into that a lot. I was told after I guess two months that I had to pay my dues before and I quote I was allowed to sit at the big boys table who said this like this was the job I was working I won't say names but basically you're getting to you're getting way ahead of your paygrade with your I was bringing story ideas. I was I wanted to really go go go and I was in my in. In reality I was you know assistant to the assistant to the assistant editor coffee, coffee getter. So I was basically told to go and I had skills I had I really knew what I was doing. So I was told and I quote you're not you can't hit the big boys table yet. So I've kind of carried that with me forever. I think that this pay your dues thing is nonsense. I think you can go do it you if you can. If you don't have that stuff $1,000 at $500 to get the camera go do that.

Alex Ferrari 55:03
So your plasma

Hasan Oswald 55:05
About your blood plasma, if you really want to learn, you can learn on YouTube. So there's kind of not that many excuses why you can't go do it.

Alex Ferrari 55:14
And I want to just add something to that. And that's excellent. I agree that there is the old system of you have to pay your dues in order to play that game. If you want to play that game, you've got to pay your dues, if you want to play in those in the in other people's sandboxes. Yeah, but then what you did is you still paid your dues, but you paid your dues in your own sandbox, and creating it on your own project and learning along the way yourself. So you no matter what you're going to have to pay your dues one way shape or form. But I would much rather learn it in my own world that I control. And I have all the power in and it's my own Big Boy table. Then playing in someone else's sandbox at the beginning.

Hasan Oswald 55:56
Yeah, and I read a great quote, quote, somewhere it said, film scores, sorry, film school has never been more expensive. And film gear, film gear has never been cheaper. So use that. And the reason these these kind of pay your dues hierarchies are starting to shake is because anyone can kind of go out and make a film right now. I just went out and made a film. So I understand that they kind of want to hold on to this, this control they have but as you said, Go play in your own sandbox and make that sandbox something. And you can be the big boys table after not not much. Not that much time.

Alex Ferrari 56:37
I mean, you won. You won the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance with your very first film, sir. So I mean, that's if that's not the big boy table. I know. There's I know, there's guys and gals who've been working 1520 years. I've never gotten that opportunity. So yeah, there's something to be said about that. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Hasan Oswald 57:00
Oh, yeah, I guess. I'm still definitely definitely learning, especially during this lockdown. There is a lot of time to do a lot of stuff. You don't waste that time. I so when I was wrapping up my time at this post house, I knew I wanted to go and direct something. But also the same time, I was, you know, physically addicted to every app on my phone. I went out three times a week in Manhattan. I just wasted time I was buried and things that weren't going to benefit victory my head. And I realized I realized that and so I moved out of my Harlem apartment, Airbnb it, because somehow you can make a lot of money doing that move back in with my parents. And I remember the first few times, and this is at age. So I'm 31 now. So I guess two, three years ago, I was too old to be living back with my parents. But I knew that I had to fund I had to save up a little money to go do this when I eventually left the post house. So and I remember when guests would come over family friends, I'd you know, not come out because I was so embarrassed to be back at home. But I kind of retreated from everything I gave up. I gave up actually alcohol and partying for a year. I deleted all the apps on my phone. barely ever use my phone. And that might not sound like a lot. But you'll be surprised if we look at that screen time thing how much time you waste. So, I had so much time to dedicate toward screenwriting books, every movie that I missed out of watching because I wasn't allowed to have a TV and I can now watch them with a critical eye. And I could I mean, I just learn podcasts like yours all the no film school type websites, I just absorb everything, everything everything. And within not too long. I had enough skills to head to Camden. So I guess I'm still learning it and this this lockdown is made it extra issue is even more magnified because there just is so much time on my hands lockdown in Iraq.

Alex Ferrari 59:29
That's the name of your next move locked down in Iraq.

Hasan Oswald 59:32
Yeah, so I guess the lesson is that there is enough time to make this happen. Whatever that dream that end goal is for you. There is enough time in the day to make that happen. There are going to be some sacrifices but if you're as long as you're not wasting time, there is time to get this stuff done.

Alex Ferrari 59:51
Now And last question, what are the three favorite films of all time besides Waterworld, obviously is one so

Hasan Oswald 59:59
Whoo. Yeah. Waterworlds? One a and one B? Let's see three favorite movies of all time. Okay. There's a Swedish movie called let the right one in.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:12
Yes. Great Movie movie. Yes. Oh, it is. Absolutely.

Hasan Oswald 1:00:17
I don't like vampire movies. I don't like horror. Do not watch the trailer if you want to watch this movie, because you'll never you'll never turn it on. The trailer is nothing like the movie. But yeah, let the right one is definitely top three. And also don't watch the American version. It's good but not nearly as good as the Swedish version. Let's see the lives of others. The German film a fantastic film district nine that really I love the idea so I love documentary obviously but I'm actually starting to move in to narrative. I mentioned I wrote a screenplay for IRA love. And that's moving forward and so I really love the idea of mockumentary bridging the gap between what's what's narrative what's documentary and so yet district nine is definitely definitely up there for me and I guess a close close fourth you will never really hear is great I just saw that with with Phoenix really dark film Yeah, so that's a that's a top four your top three

Alex Ferrari 1:01:30
and I forgot one other question. I have to ask you who is your such a Waterworld fan? Have you been to the Waterworld ride at Universal?

Hasan Oswald 1:01:38
No. And I actually was this is gonna sound I remember when I was talking about Don't waste time and you'll have a lot of time I was wasting a lot of time the other day and was researching Waterworld cuz I mean, it's actually you know, it's it deserves a laugh or two at its expense. But there's a lot of people who really do deep dives on the internet about this. Oh, don't

Alex Ferrari 1:01:59
don't question no question. I mean, just let's be clear, real quick about Waterworld and I this is a topic I have to talk about. In all of my episodes. I've never Waterworld has never come up. But But Waterworld is honestly Yes, it you absolutely can laugh at it. There's definitely things you can laugh about it without question. But it was a fairly successful film. It is done. It did really actually did well, box office wise. It launched two rides at both universal parks. It has a lot of merge that it's sold. Like quietly it's it's not cats. Let's just put it that way. It's not as bad as like cats. You know, it's or anything like that. It's it's not showgirls, because showgirls is a perfect film, obviously. But yeah. But so people might make fun of it. But it's not as you know, it's not as a color. It's not as bad as the postman. Now, if you watch the postman, that is a horrendous piece of film.

Hasan Oswald 1:03:05
Right and it certainly Waterworld certainly did well, at my local videos, rentals. Oh, yes. rented like crazy. And also, I mean, I think everyone carries this kind of, for example, I don't think six months ago a year I would be on a podcast admitting to a loving Waterworld, or, I guess, basically, I think everyone carries this kind of imposter syndrome. That they feel like they don't belong. And I certainly felt and feel to an extent that I don't belong. And I think it's natural for all humans that way, but especially in the film industry, especially in artistic endeavors. And so while we're laughing about Waterworld, I don't think I would have talked about it. That I love that I would have made up something you know, to make me sound like I knew what I was talking about. I don't

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
Seven Samurai Seven Samurai, taxi driver,

Hasan Oswald 1:04:05
Taxi driver. This you know, these black and white? Casa Blanca, I just know, I would have gone that route. Because I think this imposter syndrome is is really real and it still is really real for me. But I think that no one really everyone's got it. You just got to kind of remember that. You got to remember that not only in this kind of gorilla indie filmmaking, especially documentary filmmaking where, you know, I really didn't belong. So I guess. Now I belong a little more than that. But um,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:42
Like, at the end of the day, we all have that imposter syndrome. I think we all have it on a certain level different levels of it. I mean, I even you know, speaking to some of these big giant directors and writers, they have it you know, and they have billion dollar movies behind them and they still have it. So it's it's an all of us. But I think as you get older, you start becoming a little more comfortable in your skin. So I have no problem saying that the room is a fantastic film and I would watch it not by myself ever, but with a group of people that show girls is great. Again, not but I could probably watch your girls by itself because it's it's it's it transcends how good it is. There's a new documentary out about it. By the way. I don't know if you know that. There's a showgirls documentary. They just broke down. What showgirls is, and I'm like, I still haven't seen cats, but I'm actually dying to watch it. Because when something is that bad, it will eventually transcendence. Yes, that's a morbid curiosity. The same reason I went to Canada. Well, cats in Canada, we can't connect those two. I don't know how we connect those two. But you haven't. So you haven't gone to the Waterworld ride yet?

Hasan Oswald 1:05:59
No. So yes, I have not gone to the Waterworld ride yet. And I actually just assumed what I was saying I was doing a deep dive. And before that, I just assumed why would that still be open? Oh, it's it's still open? Yes. So that's definitely on the on the bucket list.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:16
I saw in LA and I saw it at Florida when I was in Orlando back in the day as well. So it's still there. It's actually a fantastic show. I have to say it's a fantastic show you I think you will enjoy it even more than most. Definitely for sure. And then where can people find you find about more about higher love and what your other projects gonna be?

Hasan Oswald 1:06:39
Yeah, sure. So um, I guess the best way to find so for hire love, that's a feature documentary. It's higher love film, Instagram, and then higher love film.com. We post all of our screenings, we have a bunch of festivals coming up. The next six months, at least a bunch of festivals that will be online, which actually makes it more accessible for a lot of viewers around the world. So yeah, higher love film, the website and the Instagram. And then if you just go to the Instagram, you can under the info that you can find me under the director Hassan Oh, that's my Instagram handle. And then for the film I'm working on now, that'll be it's just briefly it follows a certain sect of the Iraqi population is easy. It's an ancient religion. And they're still after. So ISIS was brutal to everyone in the region in 2000, during their their reign of terror, around 2014. But I'm especially brutal to these, this sect of Yeezys. And they took three to 6000 of them as slaves and two to 3000 of those are still missing. And in ISIS, ISIS captivity and no one's really doing anything. So I've been bedded with a group of rescuers and smugglers trying to get those those mostly women and children back. And because of the sensitivity of the material, we cannot as of yet but anything social media wise, but we are we are approaching that that point where we can so we'll definitely if you follow the other page, the higher love page or my personal Instagram, which I'd love. I'd love to I love connecting with fellow filmmakers, especially members of the tribe, I'd love to start dialogues on my personal Instagram page. So yeah, we'll update that with my current project. As well,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:45
Hasan man, it has been an adventure talking to you. It's been a very inspiring story. I love hearing these kind of stories, man, I really really do because anytime I hear someone hustling and hustling without any understanding of what they were doing, it's even better and that you at the end of that it wasn't a disaster and you actually created a fantastic film is a rarity. So what you have done is no small feat my friend seriously so congratulations all your success and and that stay safe in Iraq until you get back here because here in the states were much safer than it is in Iraq. Obviously. We're we're good and COVID there are no riots. That's all fake news. Don't worry.

Hasan Oswald 1:09:31
Right. I'll bide my time to get back. Don't worry. And also Alex, I wanted to thank you not only for having me on but just what you do is incredible. I don't think I don't know. I don't know if I'm here without your podcast and seen in 2015 which is the same time I came onto the scene. And you know, this is great, great resources out there of which you know, you're you're one of the best. So I'm proud to call myself one of the tribe and I don't think this this hustle would have happened without a indie hustle.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:02
Thank you. I truly appreciate that. And I'll pay you later for that. So thank you.

Hasan Oswald 1:10:08
Alright, sounds good Alex.

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BPS 417: How I Got My Film Directing Off The Ground with Sean Mullin

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Sean Mullin 0:00
You know onset as a director, you have to, you have to really listen to what your actors are doing, see what they're doing if they're doing great stay out of their way, if something's rubbing you the wrong way you got to investigate.

Alex Ferrari 0:07
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Sean Mullin 1:35
Great! How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 1:36
I'm good, man. I'm good, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Brother. You we're gonna talk about your new film. Eight ain't over. Which is of the late great Yogi Berra. And, and I learned so much about you, you watching it. And when when your pitch came across my desk, I was like, Well, I gotta gotta I don't want to wait until it's mainstream. I got to see it now. And I fell in love with it. Because as I'm sure you know, you probably fell in love with it, making it make you fell in love with the okie just making?

Sean Mullin 2:09
Absolutely no, it's definitely a surrogate grandfather for the pandemic for me, and a lot of a lot of folks involved. So absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 2:15
So before we get before we get down to the your latest project wanted to go back back into the archives. So why God's green earth? Did you want to get into this business?

Sean Mullin 2:27
Um, you know, I don't think I wanted to I think anybody who wants to? I don't know, I'm a little skeptical of maybe. Yeah, I don't, you know, it's, I just was more of a I mean, it just came out of me. You know, I just felt like it was something as a kid, I was always writing short stories, I was always the one kind of getting people together and telling jokes in the corner class, I got in trouble a lot, obviously, for that. And yeah, I just was always a storyteller. And I got a kit when I was at, you know, going to West Point for College. And you know, about a video camera, and I recorded on my buddy's telling stories and all that stuff. And so and, you know, I just always wrote and always, you know, that just kind of, I don't know, came came out pretty organically. So I just feel like it's who I am, really is, instead of like, who I wanted to be

Alex Ferrari 3:14
Fair enough, because I agree with you. If somebody wants to be in this business, you got to look at them a little outside, especially now that if you've got some, especially if you got some shrapnel on you, you know it literally like you know, battle hardened through through business, it's you look you like, do you really do you want to go down to like, my son wants to be in the business, I don't run away. Is there anything else you can do? If there is and you love it?

Sean Mullin 3:41
I do that I've been teaching on and off for the past decade. And that's one of the first lectures I give is like, Listen, if you can live with yourself doing anything else do that. But if you can't, if it's a calling of it's something inside you, well, then you're screwed. And just, you know, good luck, you know, go go after but, but but be passionate, don't give up and work hard and you know, collaborate and all the things you need to do to create great work.

Alex Ferrari 4:05
I call it the beautiful illness because it's it's a thing you stuck with it. You can't get rid of it. It's with you for life. No, no vaccine is gonna get rid of it. And it could, it could go dormant for decades. But oh, wait. I have 60 year olds coming on like I was a doctor but I really want to do is direct.

Sean Mullin 4:26
Grab a camera, grab it.

Alex Ferrari 4:28
Grab a camera doc, and you can finance your project.

Sean Mullin 4:31
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 4:33
Now, I have to ask you, you had a very interesting start to your, you know, your career, if you will, outside of the film industry where you were in the military. And then you were also one of the 911 first responders. Is that correct?

Sean Mullin 4:48
I guess I was in Manhattan. I was the plans officer for the New York National Guard on the morning of September 11. So before before the attacks, we didn't need too many plans and then we needed a lot obviously that De and so I ended up ended up spending the first two weeks full time and then I was kind of part time for a couple of months. And then in January of oh two it would have been they, they gave me a new title and promoted me to captain and put me in charge of the soldiers at Ground Zero from from like, January until August about to and I was I was in charge of the bridges and tunnels in Manhattan and Ground Zero, just making sure you know, Everything was running smoothly. So and at the same time, though, I was, I had, I had moved to New York City, I'd left active duty and moved New York City a couple years prior and become a stand up comedian. And there was a new theater had just opened Upright Citizens Brigade UCB Theater opened in 99. So I started doing improv theater, and I was, so it was kind of a weird double life of working at Ground Zero and doing comedy at night. Kind of. Yeah, well, it was it was.

Alex Ferrari 5:48
It doesn't even say a joke back then. I remember like, yeah, that Saturday Night Live episode, like, Absolutely. Can we be funny?

Sean Mullin 5:55
Can we be funny now? Absolutely. Yeah. Giuliani wonder whatever happened to him? i But yeah, I mean, I don't think I did comedy for until probably at least October, November, you know, it definitely took about a month or so off. And then it was hard. It was hard. Time was a crazy time in the city, but very formative time for me. And while I was at Ground Zero, I applied I said, screw, you know, again, this is what I this is what I'm going to do with my life. I'm going to be a storyteller. So I applied to grad school. And I got accepted spring about two into Columbia's MFA program for film directing. And that's why I left the military summer Oh, two and right. I mean, I was in my uniform one day, as last day I shaved actually was August 15 2002. And I and I went to Columbia the next day for grad school.

Alex Ferrari 6:37
I imagine that the work that you did at Ground Zero and also in the military prepared you to be a director, in many ways, because of just organizing large groups of people making sure things get done.

Sean Mullin 6:50
Absolutely. No, no, it's interesting. The first thing some people will hear, you know, or some people say to me, when I tell them I've gone to West Point and all that they'll be like, well, how are you? How are you a filmmaker, this is a completely different worlds. And I you know, I jokingly I was interviewed by West Point Magazine did a little piece on me after my first film, and I was kind of tongue in cheek said, West point's the best film school in the country. I mean, I obviously, you know, a little bit of a joke there. But, um, leadership is really what it's all about, and being able to command your unit and you when you have a film set, it's the same thing creating this environment where everybody where you're inspiring people, you're not, you're not just telling people what to do, you're actually inspiring them, inspiring them. And yeah, I mean, I think there's so many parallels to being a good leader in the military and, and a director who can get the vision across, while also, you know, navigating all the obstacles that arise during production.

Alex Ferrari 7:40
Now, I was going back into your IMDB and I went all the way back to the bottom. Where you get that first pa gig? Yeah, sure. What was that with? I'm sure I'm sure.

Sean Mullin 7:56
I do. Yeah, the best thief in the world was the name of the film. And I was a PA, they found out I had come from ground zero. And so they put me in charge of all walkie talkies, they put me in charge of anything. even remotely all logistics. I mean, I was running all the truck. I was doing everything I but it was great experience. You know, it was? Yeah, it was the summer that would have been summer oh three, my first real onset gig.

Alex Ferrari 8:17
And I'm assuming, of course, you were paid very well. Very handsomely, handsomely.

Sean Mullin 8:22
Still living off it actually still living off the interest?

Alex Ferrari 8:26
No, but so what was the biggest lesson you learned? On those days, those first days on set, because I remember when I was I was a PA. I was just absorbing everything. Like I just absorbed what the director was doing, what the production was doing. I worked in the office I worked on set. I was just absorbing as much what was that lesson? That was the thing that you learned that first those first few weeks?

Sean Mullin 8:48
I think the biggest lesson for me was I had just finished my first year of grad school. So I'm on a real set. And I interned for the production company that produced the movie in the spring. And so I was had been involved and read the script and got to meet the director and everything. And I I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is that I can do this, like I pictured myself in the director's chair, and I felt competent. I mean, yes, I was a PA, you know, but I felt it didn't feel like such a far stretch and demystify the process a lot. And it actually got me really excited that I knew, you know, once I had the funds and the ability to make a first feature, I would be able to I felt confident I'd be able to pull it off.

Alex Ferrari 9:28
Isn't it funny that most pas are sitting there going I could do better

Sean Mullin 9:35
I could, you know, but I just it didn't. I didn't feel like it was beyond the reach of my capabilities. I felt like I felt good. It felt like vindication. Like okay, I see what he's doing. I see he's got a shot list. I see he's gonna stop and I can talk to actors. I know that world to a bit. So yeah, it was really it was really kind of an exciting time, to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
And as well as when you're standing because I've worked with a ton of stand Throughout my career, and it is a it is a, such an art form. And it's so hard to do good stand up like it's one of the hardest things in the planet to do, honestly. And knowing that you are stand up as well that you got up in front of that mic and everything. What did you bring from that to your directing? Because there, there are some skills that overlap, but what was it that but it wasn't anything you brought up,

Sean Mullin 10:25
I think the biggest thing was just being in the moment because even you know, being in the moment as a director is the most important thing, you know, I mean, in all this years and years of headache and, and sweat and tears and blood that go into like getting a script in the right place, and getting everything attached and getting the money, all that matters is what's between action and cut, right. And you've got to really, really to be locked in. And I'm extremely focused right there in the moment. And that that's always will stand up to you had to be it but you also have to react, right you have to react to the audience and you have to you know, and stand up and then you know, onset as a director, you have to you have to really listen to what your actors are doing, see what they're doing, if they're doing great stay out of their way, if something's rubbed you the wrong way, you got to investigate. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing I got was just the ability to really be in the moment and, and receptive to shifts in tone, or, you know, anything else that might throw off the story.

Alex Ferrari 11:18
I mean, to be fair, I mean, directing is compromise. I mean, the whole thing was constantly compromised. I always love I always love coming to set with this obscene lips shot list. And I gave it to the first ad in the first day. He's like, you know, we're not gonna make it. There. It's there just in case. I have to have 50 shots before lunch. I know. I got it. I got lunch. I know we'll get the five case.

Sean Mullin 11:42
I did a lot in grad school because again, the military, you know, I'm a six foot five military guy, you know, so they everybody's like, Oh, he can tell people what to do without being a jerk. And so So I did a lot of a dealing. And that really helped that helped inform my directing as well. I'm, I'm very selective with my shot. I'm much more I'd rather have less setups and more takes is kind of my approach. So

Alex Ferrari 12:01
Yeah, exactly. Now, how did you get your first film Amira and Sam off the ground?

Sean Mullin 12:09
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's definitely a long story. But it was just, you know, it had been about set it took me seven years from the time I got my MFA and Oh, six till that time we shot we shot summer of 13. And it was just a real struggle. I had written some other scripts. I had worked as a screenwriter I, I got hired, right. I got hired to write two scripts pretty quickly out of grad school, one for Britney Spears, which was pretty insane working with her for a year to say the least. And then another one and another script that couldn't be more different. A military drama for an Oscar nominated documentarian, Henry Alex Rubin, who had did Murderball that documentary Murderball, I wrote a I wrote a I wrote a screenplay for him. I actually got hired write that screenplay when I was in grad school, and oh five, and the film actually got made 14 years later it came out. But two years ago, it's called Semper Fi. And so that that script, so I was working as a screenwriter, I was doing other things. My creative partner from Columbia, Mike Connors is my best friend and we have a crush coming out here in LA, he, he made a feature that I produced, called allegiance in 2012. And so producing his feature, I really started to understand, you know, what it takes that really, if you're going to make an independent film, you you've got to especially don't come from any means, you know, you've got to you gotta figure you know, figure it out, you know, last thing my parents ever bought me was a one way plane ticket to West Point, you know, so I, you know, I've been I've been out here hustling, trying to scrape together scrape together money to get things made. And so yeah, we just, I was able to kind of get I got, I landed with a great production company. I got very fortunate, we introduced a burst company, Matt Miller and Eric Lochner at the time, have a company called vanishing angle and they actually fast forward that they are they vanishing angle? Is the production company on it ain't over as well. So it's just a good a good lesson in keeping up relationships, but at the time, it was it was Matt and Eric Now it's run by Matt and Natalie Miller, Natalie Metzker. But, um, but yeah, so we I got, you know, we got the script, I got the script to them, we, we got some money together, we thought we were gonna make it for 600k We went out made offers, we got Martin star attached, which was incredible, was really exciting. He had never been the lead in a, in a in a feature film before, let alone or romantically, let alone a special forces. You know, Greenbrae. So it was really something different for him a real departure, but he, he was really drawn in with a script, and I think I was able to sell him over over lunch, and we got him attached. And then and then we got Deena Shahabi, which was like this incredible, incredible actress. She was still in grad school at the time getting her MFA at NYU and acting she's since blown up she's doing a million things and she was just on this archive at one which was a big Netflix thing but she did Jack rock Jack Ryan and all this other stuff. She's an incredible actress, but this was her first film as well. So lead role and yeah, so it didn't we killed ourselves, you know, and then and then half the budget, you know, half the money. felt, you know, we had, we thought we had 600 we have kind of verbal commitments for 600. And then by the time we're shooting, we had 300. So I had to cut another week. So instead of a four week shoot or three weeks shoot, and it was just a mess was we shot 97 pages and 16 and a half days, which was a real, real, I mean, a real difficult difficult thing. But, you know, through all the through all that through all that trial and tribulation, we ended up having a really wonderful premiere and we ended up winning, winning awards, you know, over 10 film festivals and we got, you know, picked up by Alamo Drafthouse, Tim League, saw the film, watched it, bought it, and put it out in Alamo Drafthouse theaters, which was really exciting. And I got signed it, an agency and all that stuff. So it kind of it served this purpose of what I needed to do. And I also just, obviously, love the film, so means a lot.

Alex Ferrari 15:46
It's fascinating that, you know, I'd love to hear this kind of stories of like we had 600, then we really only had 300 that you kept going is a testament to your ability and everything, your team's ability to just make it happen because it happens so often. And so many filmmakers coming up, they don't understand, like, when the money drops that the concept of the money dropping until it's in the bank until it's an escrow that you can pull, pull a check. It's nothing.

Sean Mullin 16:14
It's nothing. No, no. And when I said we had 600, I think we have 10 grand in the bank. I mean, we have 600 And then that money in I mean, Meg Jarrett, I mean, she's the real angel to that project. She was she was she wrote the first check. And then actually, Peter Sobel off, who was who ended up producing, being one of the lead producers, Peter, and Mike's, who were big producers on the yogi doc, they actually, you know, came in as well and brought some money. And so it was just nervous. We were raising money all the way up through prep, and it was a nightmare. still finding locations, it was a real mess. But at that point in my life, also the film, the film was anything that I would, you know, I think it's too much. I think I cram too much into it. I just I was like, this is like, this is my shot. This is it. This is the only film I'm you know, this is, this is the only film I'm ever gonna get to make. It's been seven years since grad school. And it was really tough, was married, had a young daughter, you know, I was like, what, um, you know, this is it, this was my shot. And if it and so I just, there was no way I was backing down. And if it didn't, if it didn't succeed, I, you know, I don't know for sure what I would have done.

Alex Ferrari 17:13
As they say, you went up to the plate, sir. And you and you and you took you took a swing. And that's, I mean, I've been there. But I've been there that, you know, you're like, This is my shot. I got this has to go the train is left, this is leaving the station on this day. It's over. Regardless of what happens. We're making something

Sean Mullin 17:31
If I'm following if I'm following Martin and Deena around with a camera, you know, for a few weeks, we're gonna get something but everything fell in place. I just had an incredible, incredible support. And Terry Leonard was a producer, who, who really came on board and really helped out with that. And my cinematographer Danny Vecchione, he, Danny, also cinematographer on worked with him on multiple projects since he shot the yogi doc. So again, a lot of lot of my key creative relationships were started with that film.

Alex Ferrari 17:57
Now, as you know, many times when we're on set as a director, there's that day, that moment, Dad, you're losing the son. Camera breaks, the actor can't get to set. How was that moment for you on that film? And how did you overcome it?

Sean Mullin 18:16
I mean, there were there were about 13 of those. But no, I mean, there's one in particular, Dena still brings up uniques I'm still really close. I mean, Dina, and Martin and I, we get together for dinners all the time, and we're really still close. And we really bonded during that, you know, again, that's another kind of similarity to the military, but you bond through the stress. Right? Um, and, and so there was one so we, you know, the film, you know, there, there are different days, you know, we were averaging over seven pages a day. So that was pretty tricky. But there was one day where we had a ton, there's a long scene that takes place in a in a bed, which is like a 10 page scene. So that was night, we got like 14, like we got like 12 or 13 pages that day, which is huge. So but we had an Action Day where we had all of our boat scenes and all of our motorcycle scenes, which were it was just our kind of most logistically challenging day and we had the weather had to be right and everything had to just be perfect, like we had didn't have a minute to spare. And we couldn't, when we got on the boat to shoot the boat scenes, we we didn't have enough people as myself DP producer sound, and then the actors that's all we could fit on the boat. And on one of the take we you know, on one of the takes, we it was a perfect take, I loved everything. But Deena had left on her jean jacket because she was cold. And so the continuity it wouldn't cut it all and it was a big Medius part of the scene and and I I just I almost broke I mean that was the closest I came to breaking because we I didn't know if we could do it again. So we had to circle back around something has to match and then the weather and then I've got this motorcycles waiting for us which we've got to get to them in time to get the sunset motorcycle shots and I'm on the boat and it's just so that that was probably the closest I came to, to kind of breaking. I mean, there's a lot of emotional moments. I mean, the the most emotional moment making it though was when you know when we told all the agents and everything I knew there was a six $7,000 movie. That's what went out to Martin and everything like that. And for Martin Starr is like, Oh, that's not a lot of money. I can't believe it and, and about two thirds of the way through the shoot, we were shooting the scene at this mock police station, and Martin pulled me aside. And we had been through a lot at this point. And he, and he said, You know, I don't know how I go, Sean, I just need to tell you, I don't know how you guys are pulling this off for 600,000. And I just, I just started, I just started crying. I just started crying. Tears came out of my eyes. And he's like, what's he's like, what's up, and he gave me a hug. And I said, God, we only have 300. And, and he hugged me back, and he started crying. And we're just there hugging and crying each other outside this, you know, made up police station, that we shot somewhere. So anyways, it's moments like that. It's a lot, you know, it's a lot.

Alex Ferrari 20:50
Now, is there something that you wish somebody would have told you at the beginning of your career? A piece of advice or something?

Sean Mullin 20:57
Oh, man, I don't know. You know, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a big like, regret guy. I have looked back. I don't you know, I just I've never been good at that. So no, I mean, you know, I'm sure, yeah, I mean, it could have taught me a lot of things. I feel like,

Alex Ferrari 21:09
Hey, you're not gonna get you're gonna get through

Sean Mullin 21:12
Your 300. I mean, you know, just how, you know, I mean, I think I was ready. I think I was prepared for how hard it was. I mean, I, you know, it's just been, it's been very difficult been very difficult on even personal relationships and stuff. And, you know, it's just been hard. It's been a hard, hard road.

Alex Ferrari 21:28
It's and that's the thing that so many young filmmakers coming up, don't understand that this is not an easy path. This is the art the artists path is not an easy path. But the filmmaker path is even more complex, because we cost so much for us. And we have to convince other people to come along with us. It's very difficult to do it all by yourself, if not impossible. So it's, it's it's I always like bringing these kinds of stories up. So filmmakers listening, especially young filmmakers understand what's ahead of them, not to scare them off, but just to understand the rules of the game. Mm

Sean Mullin 22:02
Hmm. Yeah, you almost have to just be possessed, you know. Yeah. Which is, you know, for better for worse, but, but you need a lot of collaborators, you need a lot of support, you need people to vouch for you. That's why I now, you know, vouch for younger filmmakers of whenever I can, and help out. I've had interns over the years. I've got another one this summer. Giselle does Nia, she's really great. So I'm looking out for her, trying to, you know, trying to pass along any advice I can. And actually, I teach a class I teach. I teach two classes over at AFI, AFI the MFA program and directing and I teach in the fall. It's like a directing 101 is a four semester program I teach. In the fall, I teach a, like a direct one on one class shot, shot selection, shot progression, you know, kind of basic directing class, Intro to directing. And then the fourth semester, I teach a class called the first feature where we go through and we do case studies of dozens of first features and you know, what works, what doesn't so I'm doing my best to pass along any knowledge I've gotten over the years to make things a little bit easier, but it's never gonna be easy for anyone.

Alex Ferrari 23:04
I mean, you could you could tell somebody don't put your hand in the fire because it's gonna it's hard until you get into that fire baby. You don't you really don't really don't know. That's true. That's so true to hear all these stories by us old timers sitting around talking about it, but until you're in the interior, as they say, you're in the shit. You really won't know what's what's going on. Now. I when I was looking at through your your filmography, I'm like, okay, so he did this amazingly wonderful romantic comedy. How does he go from I mean, a romantic comedy to Semper Fi which is complete one ad you know obviously much bigger budget you know, a bigger cast and action and different tone How did you get like as a as a as a creative and as a director?

Sean Mullin 24:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't really when I'm looking at stories, I don't look at the genre. Or, you know, even even you know, I don't really necessarily pay attention to format you know, I'm doing more docs now. But I it's really about to me, it's about character and story and for, for me that the stories that have resonated the most are stories where there's some sort of tension between perception and reality. So for Amir and Samos, the perception and reality of a veteran returning from war and an Iraqi refugee, it's this kind of star crossed lover thing where Are there there's a tension there. And with Yogi I mean with yogi, the perception of Yogi versus the reality of Yogi. So I, for me, that's what I'm really keyed into is every story I've gotten involved with has some sort of tension between perception and reality. And so I don't really, you know, whether it's a comedy or drama or dark or scripted, I don't think any of that matters it to me, it's about kind of, you know, the story and the characters. And if I can, undercover, some sort of tension that is compelling.

Alex Ferrari 25:27
How did you approach the action? Because you hadn't at that point, have you shot any action at that point?

Sean Mullin 25:33
Or are you top up for Semper Fi? Yeah. So actually, so I did not direct Semper Fi. So I, you wrote, you wrote down? No, no, no, I'm sorry. Yeah. So Henry, Alex Rubin, who did a Murderball Oh, he ended up No, no, he directed it. So I was just a, I was a co writer, I co wrote the script with him. And then I was a co producer on as well, because I was involved. I mean, I mean, this is 155 drafts over 14 years and not one dime until I until until, until, you know, the first day of shooting really so.

Alex Ferrari 26:01
So at that point, you should like yeah, I'm going to be involved a little bit.

Sean Mullin 26:05
Well, I tried. Yeah, I tried to be as involved as they'd let me

Alex Ferrari 26:09
Now when I saw Beer Fest. And it was really interesting because I love the way you shoot docks. It's very interesting, very cinematic. It's, you know, there's some term documentarian, so shoot it like a documentarian. But you seem to shoot it like a documentarian with a cinematic eye. And

Sean Mullin 26:28
Kingsbury, you're talking about? Things were different. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 26:32
I just had I just had Jay on the show. I'm sorry.

Sean Mullin 26:34
Oh, did you know Jay was amazing. No, no, that was fun. Those little those. Yeah, that was my first my first documentary was called kings of beer. And yeah, I tried to bring again, I brought my DP who's a really incredible cinematographer Danny Vecchione, and he, he's got a real cinematic eye. And so we, you know, we visually try it, we tried to visually design it, you know, as kind of, you know, to make it look kind of, I don't know, as cinematic as possible. And yeah, I'm glad I'm really proud of it was my first doc. And, you know, it's also it got a little bit a little bit of a stink on it, I think for some people after the release, because it was financed by Budweiser. So a lot of people were like, Oh, this is propaganda. This is stuff, but I was like, Listen, you know, I did get paid. First time in my life, I got paid really well. I was like, Oh, this is what directors get paid. Or this is like, this is this is I could do this, like every Yeah, exactly. I got I mean, and so I understood, I understood that end of it. So yeah, Budweiser, did finance it. But they weren't involved. You know, they weren't super involved with the editor or any of the stuff. It was really up to me. And I was really, again, went after care and went after perception versus reality. When I touch again, this is a perfect thing is probably one of my best examples where if I tell you who are the top five Brewmasters at Budweiser, you probably will firstly you didn't know they had multiple Budweiser as theirs, but you probably like oh, they're heavyset, white, bearded white dudes from the Midwest, like just pressing a button. Homer Simpson taken a nap right? But no, I mean, it was. It was the five top brewmaster there 65 breweries around the world that brew button the top five that I followed for a year, where African American female African American male, a Chinese man from Wuhan went to Wuhan, actually, which was crazy shot there right before everything happened. didn't speak any English. And then another woman from Canada who brews in New Hampshire, and then and then the white dude, who was an Army combat vet, which was like really fascinating story. So you know, it again, flipping flipping people's perceptions of what a brewmaster might be. And I'm really proud of the film and it taught me how when I was finishing up post with that is when I got the call from Peter microblogs, saying, Hey, we know the bears, we've got an incident would you be interested in directing a documentary about yogi? And I was like, I actually my initial reaction was like, Well, let me give me a B because Yogi seems to perfect like what's the drama? What's the tension? Right? What? And then I started reading I read some books and I went online, I watched some videos and I was like, oh, no, there's there's something here. There's there's a real tension between who he was and who people thought he was. So I dove in.

Alex Ferrari 29:02
Yeah, so So let's talk about anything over because Yogi agreed with you like I when I watched the film, I knew Yogi is a pitchman. I mean, I knew him as a baseball player, obviously. But I really didn't understand the impact that he had had on the Yankees. And not only on Yankees on the baseball on baseball itself, and how he was not respected as or putting the light that he should have been in because he was as good, if not better than any of those guys on those teams that he wants championships there.

Sean Mullin 29:35
There's one stat that's and this is just the baseball people out there. But there's one stat that we didn't, we couldn't share in the movie, you know, you have 90 minutes to tell this guy's incredible, you know, 9090 year journey and so we couldn't fit everything in. But there are only two players in the history of baseball to finish in the top four of MVP voting for seven straight years. And that's really tough to do because it's really about consistency and finish that high and MVP voting. I mean, you'll give one three of them but he finished the top four set Been years in a row. The only other player to do it was Mike Trout. So, you know, he's not talked about though, in the same same kind of levels of some of these guys. And so that was definitely something we were we were going after it. He's also an again, just from the Yankees legacy. I mean, he's the only I mean, if you look at his life, we kind of we cover this on the dock, but like, you know, he came up as a rookie and met Babe Ruth and shook hands with Dave and got to know him a little before they passed. And then and then he was mentored by DiMaggio and and he was a, you know, he was a, you know, teammate of mantle. And then, you know, he's a coach. He's a coach. Yeah, and Maris Of course, and Whitey and that whole crew and then and then fast forward to he's a, he's a coach for you know, Guidry and Willie Randolph and reds. And then And then he's the manager for Mattingly. And then he mentors, you know, Jeter and Gerardi and that whole crew too. So there's no Yankee, there's nobody who's done that front from shaking hands with Babe Ruth to mentoring Derek Jeter. There's, you know, he really is the connective tissue. Absolutely. The backbone of the Yankees.

Alex Ferrari 31:03
Yeah, it was and then you know, that whole 14 year bit with him and George Steinbrenner. Yeah, I mean, that that was insane. Do you know that I when I was down in Florida watching spring training, I got George Steinbrenner to sign my baseball.

Sean Mullin 31:16
Well, there you go.

Alex Ferrari 31:18
He was citing Baseball said I made it onto ESPN. Like even some kids were looking for George Steinbrenner.

Sean Mullin 31:25
Yeah, I mean, he was an interesting guy. I mean, you know, I think Bob Costas put it well, in the in the documentary and he was a polarizing figure. But but you know, he did love the Yankees. And he did love Yogi they had, they had obviously a bit of a falling out. But we were able to interview Georgia somehow. And he was he couldn't have been more kind and just really wonderful about things he had to say about yogi. So it was really nice to be able to talk to so many wonderful people. I mean, you saw the interviews, we got some great ones. So

Alex Ferrari 31:50
Oh, no, some amazing ones. But I have to ask you, so when I've had other people on the show, we've tackled large, you know, you know, just kind of like big shadows of people, massive personalities. How do you approach someone's legacy like this? Because I know you were doing it with the help of the family. So that actually helps, obviously, that you're not doing it against the wishes of the family and everything. But how do you even approach telling that story? I mean, the pressure on you, like people are going to look at this documentary, this is going to be what people look, go back and look at about yo, because there really isn't a definitive documentary. God.

Sean Mullin 32:26
Not I mean, not. Yeah. I mean, there is no, there is June 11. Yeah, there will be. No, we were really proud of it. And know, the family was incredible. Like, the biggest concern from day one was to not make it some sort of like hagiography, some sort of puff piece, some sort of AI that's documentaries that just put their subjects on a pedestal. And then I call these things and this is very, I was very upfront with my producers on day one. I said, I don't want to do a Wikipedia doc, a wiki doc, where it's just like, they were born. They did this they did that there's a difference between emotion, right, which is what I'm after, and information, which is what you can google right. And so I I'm really, really had to play emotionally. I think it does play. I don't know, I let you leave if you agreed, had agreed.

Alex Ferrari 33:11
I teared up a few times. Yeah.

Sean Mullin 33:13
Yeah. So in if it doesn't have those emotional, that emotional component to it, I'm not interested in directing it. So I was very upfront with that from day one. So it was like how are we going to tell the story in a way that is going to really get to the heart of audiences and so but at the same time without, you know, without it being, you know, just too much of a like it's like a puff piece.

Alex Ferrari 33:37
Yeah, absolutely right. Because some documentaries are just very informative. Just a second Wikipedia style erotic that we can dock with the concept.

Sean Mullin 33:45
Yeah, I just I'm working on two docks right now two other docks and and yeah, that's just my that's my number one thing is what can what can we offer people that is actually truly cinematic that is actually going to engage them in a way emotionally, you know, in lives right here instead of living up here, you know?

Alex Ferrari 34:00
Yeah. And then the whole new Yogi Berra knew that whole backstory, but I didn't know how deep it went. Why he was called yogi. I always wondered why he was called like, that's obviously not his Italian name. Right, right. Yeah. There was no there was one piece in the in the documentary that blew my mind. I just could not believe that to happen. Because he's, I think he was the first he caught the first no hitter in the

Sean Mullin 34:26
game. He got the Yeah, he got Yeah, he called he called all 97 pitches. So like, you know, so Larson was just like, locked in like, tell me Yogi what to do.

Alex Ferrari 34:35
And he never he never called me never didn't check them off.

Sean Mullin 34:38
They didn't check them off once in 97 pitches.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
So he got so then and then. Yeah, later, decades later, he makes up it's Yogi Berra day.

Sean Mullin 34:48
Well, you can't Yeah. You can't. Well, it's that, you know, it's the type thing in a documentary too. I'm always looking at where if I were to script it, it would the producers would throw it out. They said is ridiculous. And that's when you know, I think you've got a doc that really works is when there's a moment that is so unbelievable that you couldn't have scripted it. And that definitely that moment, you know, had that, you know, and it's also a great example of that information has been out there forever. Like, you could have read that on Wikipedia, and you can read it and but it's in books, it's a fact that he was part of these two, you know, these two perfect games. But but until you see it until you are involved in two, you're experiencing it through everything he had gone through, that's the difference between again, you know, kind of, you know, a cinema treatment and just a, you know, just a little wiki doc thing.

Alex Ferrari 35:35
Now, on a business standpoint, when you know, because I've studied docs for you know, most of my career, I'm a big fan of docs. But on a business standpoint, it's I always find it so interesting when filmmakers work on Docs to have a built in audience. So especially when it's a larger than life figure like yogi, how hard was it to get the financing to put this whole thing together all that because people think, Oh, you're making a Yogi Berra Doc, I mean, the money must have just been rolling it.

Sean Mullin 36:09
Listen, that's a whole nother. I mean, you know, I was extremely, extremely fortunate that from day one, Peter and Mike Sobel off, who were the first to, they're the ones who put the whole kind of project together at the very beginning and called me and asked me to direct they went out and raise the budget themselves. I mean, the two of them, you know, they and I mean, I couldn't have been more fortunate to work with, you know, to more supportive, you know, you know, just bold, you know, producers and the first thing that they did, they went out and, you know, they were out while they were out raising the money, I went and I turned right back to vanishing angle, Matt Miller and Natalie Mesker. Again, who produced my my first feature mirror and Sam, you know, years ago, and I said, Hey, would you guys want to team up with the cellblocks has to be a good team, they can kind of go out, raise the money and leave that front. You guys can handle the production side of it. And then I got my old editor, Julian Robinson, from Amira and Sam has incredible editor. The film is very well edited. And all the archival he had to he had to dig through and all this stuff. So I got Danny, my old cinematographer who kind of put the band back together and made it happen. But as far as raising the money, fortunately, you know, Peter has really good ties to a lot of folks who are huge Yankee fans, and he's a big finance guy in New York. So he was able to, you know, him and Mike were able to to make it happen somehow.

Alex Ferrari 37:27
Right. Exactly. Because I mean, yeah, if you tap into there's a certain pool in New York.

Sean Mullin 37:32
Yeah, absolutely. No, it was nice. Well, the craziest thing, the craziest thing is over the course, over the course of making this documentary, Peter and Mike have gotten involved in are now minority owners in the Yankees, actually. So they actually own a piece of the Yankees two, which is, which is totally totally aside from the doc just happened. So. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, they're great. They're a great team.

Alex Ferrari 37:53
Yeah. So and then you've gotten to Tribeca, obviously. So what was it like getting that call, man?

Sean Mullin 37:59
It was wonderful. It felt like the right place. You know, it just felt like this is where we this is, this is where we wanted to premiere the film. So we knew it. We knew it. We were hoping, and they called us right away. And they called us super early back in like November, like I think November, you know, way, way early. And wow, that's really I mean, yeah, before they even closed, you know, before they even close submissions, and they're like, hey, we want this we want this and we got excited. And then we were able to get an incredible incredible you know, if you know the indie film business, you know, you need a great sales agent. And so we you know, we started at the top and we took a stab at John sloths at Cinetic. And, and and he you know, he flipped for it. He's been so caught him and the whole team is Cinetic have been really incredible. So they're selling it so that's great. So yeah, just started putting all the all the all the pieces together.

Alex Ferrari 38:45
Man, I really hope it gets out there. Because, you know, for for any baseball fan out there. I mean, Yo, he's just, I mean, even if you're not a baseball fan, if you're a certain age, you know, Yogi is purely because he did 1000s of commercials. Versus man, it was like even the doc he's like, I don't know, I'm doing some it was Aflac or something like that.

Sean Mullin 39:08
Amtrak Aflac. Didn't know which one it was like, it's one of those. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 39:13
I'm getting a check. It's fine. Yeah, but you seem like such a sweet guy, man. And such an authentic guy. Like it was one of those people that you just, they don't make souls like that anymore. Like, they truly don't.

Sean Mullin 39:23
He just, I mean, this is what I tell people about the film is, it was a real, real honor and pleasure to tell a story about someone who just always did the right thing. He just always did the right thing. He just that was that he just had every turn, whether it was you know, you know, breaking the color barrier and help, you know, help him you know, befriending you know, Jackie Robinson and Larry, Adobe, and all these guys who are coming into the league who, you know, whatever, just a return. It's really the film is really about a life well lift. And it's a broader, you know, we you know, one of the kinds of templated films we looked at when we were looking at these docks was the the Mr. Rogers stuff luck, you know, had come out. One of the things that and that was one of the films that's that actually sparked the Sobel off to call me today because actually I got the call from them in July of 18. So it was the summer that moved. So this this projects been going on for years. You know, and I got the call in July of 18. And they had just seen that dock and they were like, we need to do something kind of in that vein for yogi. And so, yeah, just a real. I mean, I was extremely honored. And, you know, and just the fact that, you know, Lindsey is happy with the great granddaughter, she's incredible. She narrates the film, and, and I'm just excited for the rest of the bear the biggest audience to have seen the film so far has four people. And we're premiering in 1000 seat theater next Saturday, so it's gonna be it's gonna be something

Alex Ferrari 40:41
Now, really important question is, though, did was Jackie safe?

Sean Mullin 40:47
You know, what's the craziest thing? I mean? You can you know? Yeah. Did you like that little piece in the film that back and forth

Alex Ferrari 40:53
Oh, fun. It was, as I'm talking about Jackie Robinson, there's a very famous play at a play at home plate where Yogi thinks he got him. But Jackie was ruled safe. Jackie, great Jackie Robinson and to his grave.

Sean Mullin 41:08
Oh, is he right?

Alex Ferrari 41:10
You know, he was. Even when you sell frame by frame, I was watching it. I'm like, What do you think I first saw it. When I first saw it. I'm like, Nah, he's he got him out. There was like that one sequence from the other angle. And I'm like,

Sean Mullin 41:25
That's what's really great about it. So from the front angle, he looks out and then but from the reverse angle, he definitely looks safe. So but he I mean, it's the safe route. It's great. I mean, what it's what's great about baseball too, right? Is that, yeah, that was game one of the 55 series. And it was a really big deal. And, you know, he was at his height. And Jackie was, you know, these were these were characters who were larger than life, you know, and to have that massive play at home plate, but in the steal of home and who steals home anymore. So it was just, it was a real, it was yeah, it was really great. But now if you look at that's the great thing about if you look at it from one angle, he looks clear, clearly out and another angle, you know, he looks safe. So what's great,

Alex Ferrari 42:01
Now I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. Ask all my guests are sure. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Sean Mullin 42:10
What advice, um, you know, that's, you know, start making films, no matter how big or small just start start shooting, start learning learning, learn the craft, understand what a shot means, understand. When you're subjective, it means something when you're objective, it means something, learn how to compress, learn how to elaborate, learn how, learn the fundamentals, you know, just through, you can shoot, you know, one of the one of the classes I teach at AFI and I taught at USC for for a few years before as well. They've got a great program there. And, you know, I, I just would run my students through these, like very basic exercises, like character a wants something from character B, and, you know, create a story, you know, dialogue, and just how do you articulate beats? So just like learning the basics of like, how do shots add up to, you know, an emotional impact, you know, with with an audience and so I would, I would just say, start shooting, you know, on a video game on your phone on whatever, start telling stories, start writing, you know, if you can write, you got a leg up as a director, I'll tell you that if you can write you really do because nobody's, you know, nobody's gonna just give a director a great script. You know, the great scripts are few and far between, as we all know, and so nobody's going to give one to you if you're starting out. So if you can write that's great. If you can't write find a writer, team up with a writer, co write with a writer, you know, adapt a short story, it's amazing how many first features are adaptations of short stories or something that exists. So don't be afraid to grab a piece of material from somewhere else. Tchaikovsky's you know, childhood is one of the great all time great first features and it was an adaptation. So yeah, anyway, it's just that'd be my advice is just to go out and learn. Hone the craft. It's the same thing with acting. And some actors, oh, I want to act like do some theater. Like get learn how to act like learn the craft. And you know, before, you know, you try to make it big, you know? So that that'd be my advice.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
No, and what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life?

Sean Mullin 44:11
Well, I'm still I mean, I don't know, man, I'm still learning just from the lessons take me the longest to learn. Gosh, I'd say you know, how important relationships really are relationships and collaborations. I think, you know, I knew it, I knew it, it kind of instinctually but looking back at the past 15 years, you starting to see, you know, people pop up again, again on my projects and just knowing that like it's really building this kind of, again, to use a middle you know, military term, you know, unit you know, this, this this kind of, you know, brigade or whatever you want to call it, of supporters and cultivating support from other filmmakers, but also just, you know, financiers and just champ you know, understanding that it takes a lot of people to believe in you in order to To make it through this and being very respectful of that, anytime anybody does believe in you, I'm really honored that to be grateful for it. And yeah, I think that's, that's the biggest lesson that I've, I've taken away. And three of your favorite films of all time, a Russian film from 1959 called Ballad of a soldier, which I think is probably one of the all time great, great films I recommend. It's also a film a lot a lot of people have seen, so I highly recommend checking that one down if for anyone out there I love the 55 movie. Marty Petrowski is Marty is really high up on my list as well. And then good as I mean, I'm a big welcome to your fans of reprise his first feature. This is one of my favorites, too. So I don't know. I mean, geez, I could I could name I probably about 50 favorite films, you know, but those are three that just popped off my head.

Alex Ferrari 45:49
Sean man, I appreciate you coming on the show. Brother. Congratulations on a great a great film. And I look forward to seeing more stuff from you in the future brother and thank you for bringing Yogi out of the shadows and showing showing who Yogi really is in your film brother, so I appreciate you man. Thanks again.

Sean Mullin 46:04
Yeah, no, thank you for the time. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

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Alex Ferrari 2:23
I'd like to welcome to the show Jeff MacIntyre. Man, thank you so much for being on the show. Brother.

Jeff MacIntyre 3:51
Me. Yes. Great to be here, Alex. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 3:54
I appreciate that

Jeff MacIntyre 3:55
Let me just say right to kick things off. I think I have to state the obvious, you know, with everything that's going on in the world right now. I don't think there's any bigger warning sign that the end is near by the fact that Alex booked a failed filmmaker on his show. I mean, come on. If that's not proof, the end is coming to start digging your bunker. These are desperate times.

Alex Ferrari 4:16
Listen, listen, my friend. I hope I'm the host. And I'm a failed filmmaker in many ways, as well. So don't don't worry about it. So we have all failed in one way, shape or form. So it's all good. But I also also Do you believe that you learn much more from failure than you ever do from success? So that's why you're present. And that's why you and I which are I'm assuming similar vintages as far as age is concerned. That we wait we have enough old enough sir Exactly. We have the shrapnel and and you What is it? What's that saying? My wife says it all the time. The devil is more devil because of how long he's been around how old he is. So it's not because he's a devil.

Jeff MacIntyre 5:01
Oh, yeah, Oh, yeah, he's had more practice. perfected devilish. And we have the shrapnel but we've also got the medicine to help soothe the wounds.

Alex Ferrari 5:12
For people listening wrote that film. I think he's holding up a wild turkey is that

Jeff MacIntyre 5:19
This is High, West. High, West. Oh, you like good Bourbons and whiskeys. They are just knocking it out of the park.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
There you go. There you go.

Jeff MacIntyre 5:28
I know. I could see you possibly don't believe in you need a little proof. So what I'll do for the community, I'm taking one for the community here. And this guarantees this show is only going to get better.

Alex Ferrari 5:39
I feel that this is going to be a good episode. Jeff, I'm just have a feeling that this might be a fun episode. So first and foremost, how did you get into this ridiculous business?

Jeff MacIntyre 5:50
That is a key word. I'll take you way back to the ripe young age of 15. I got started in radio at this cheeseball local radio station.

Alex Ferrari 6:00
What is it? What is this? What is this? What is this radio you speak of? I don't understand. Oh, Is it like a podcast.

Jeff MacIntyre 6:06
No, no, this was a real FM radio station back in 1985. It was a true cast. Yes, not a podcast. And they eventually acquired even a cheesier cable access station. So that's kind of where the ball started rolling out 1617 started doing on camera stuff. But the real pivotal moment where things really broke open and I really owe a lot of my career to was ASI. Not not the the film school. Alternative fact interpretation. Asi. I told a couple really big lies to score some really sweet positions with ABC TV. This is back in the 90s and they desperate spot they needed technicians in shooters editors, and the bar was so low anyone with a pulse and one working good. I probably could have gotten a gig. So I come in, I meet with the head honcho this gruff, old grizzled news guy. Yeah. Well, who are you? What do you what can you do for me? Well, I am an editor. Sure I am Why not? I can be anything the guy wanted that day. And granted to that point, I had edited, very prestigious productions, like weddings and bar mitzvahs. So I understood the basics of cutting, but maybe not on the broadcast news level, but the interviews progressing. Can you edit? Sure I can. You can do news? Well, it would be news to me if I couldn't do news. Wow. Oh, this sounds good. So you'll start tomorrow? Oh, just out of curiosity for your news. Business here. What kind of equipment do you use to edit your news? Oh, the Sony arm 450. Old Of course. Great choice. That's what I'd use. Thank you. I'll see you tomorrow. So I get in the parking lot. And I break out my big huge cell phone I call a buddy who owns a production company. Hey, Greg. It's Jeff. I just got this sweet gig at CHANNEL SEVEN. But I have to learn how to edit. Do you have a Sony Rm 350. And he said, Come on over, he got me up to speed. And that's what really started the professional ball rolling. And from there, I told some other sweet lies. And sure I know how to shoot professional stuff and produce in the field. So they sent me to foreign countries. And that's what I tell young filmmakers and professionals don't wait till the door opens for you the moment you see a crack you bust through that door and show up with confidence. And if you know in your heart, you're not going to screw people over and you probably can learn on the job and do so quickly. You do it because those opportunities rarely come twice in that those moments.

Alex Ferrari 8:42
And that is exactly what I did with my fake editing demo reel which I used by grabbing other people's commercial spots, raw footage, re editing them slapping a Nike logo at the end of it. And I would go they were like you know 20 like 10 million $5 million commercials, whatever like, but they were foreign raw footage from like Europe. And I was editing I was working at a production house I grabbed it all put it together, send it out. And I started working as an editor really quick. But you knew you had the skills you had not had to make a make a claim? Correct. That's the thing. That's the thing when you're going to get your fake it till you make it you need to understand that you might have to bend the truth to get in the door. But you've got to produce once you're in the door, or learn on the job and things like that. And I did that multiple times while I was coming up and I think all big you know all all professionals have one point or another extended the truth of what their capabilities or experience was and figure it out along the way just to get the opportunity because you're right. If you see that crack, you gotta bust through that door. Without question.

Jeff MacIntyre 9:48
Definitely. It's not like today where we all own the transmitter. Basically, we all have our own channels, but back in the days you and I were coming up. I mean there were a huge gun. Go To gun guarded gates, they weren't letting you in me. And

Alex Ferrari 10:04
That's for damn sure, sir. Now tell me about your new film The Great cookie comeback. Tell me about it.

Jeff MacIntyre 10:10
I really prefer not to talk about that film. I'd like to talk about interpretive dance. What?

Alex Ferrari 10:19
Oh my god, oh my god, it's gonna be like

Jeff MacIntyre 10:22
Okay fine, we'll talk about that film. So, I don't know, too long to admit about four or five years ago, I producing partner Jason. He lives in Hawaii, Honolulu. And he crosses paths with this guy named Wally Gaines. And this by namesake Yeah, well, Amos. I don't know. I've never heard of them. But then when you learn that he's the Amos behind famous Amos cookies, which we've all enjoyed at a gas station. near you. vending machine. Yes. And these actually have the shelf life of gravel. The package version so this is good bunker. Good material. So you know, back in the day, so Wally aim is the cool thing about walling. I'm sorry, I the booze is kicking in. So sure, the focus here, so my buddy crosses, crosses paths with them. And then the idea is, oh, let's do a reality show with Wally. I'm like, No, no one wants to see reality show with his 80 plus year old guy. Let's do a documentary. His life is so rich. And most people only know him, you know based on his sweet treats, but his life or cookies was just jaw droppingly interesting. He was a music agent, one of the first black talent agents in the US work for William Morris. He discovered people like the temptations he signed Diana Ross Marvin Gaye, he discovered Simon Garfunkel, she says so, but exactly, so that part of Wally's life is really, really interesting. And so that's how his entree to cookies came to be. He was representing an actress Sheri summers, who was in Harold and Maude, which is one of my, one of my more favorite classic films, very quirky. And as they were finishing up a meeting, Sherry busts out this bag of chocolate chip cookies, and was like, where'd you get these? Oh, I made them. I just loved them a cookie. So while he started eating them, and it reminded him of simpler days of his past when his aunt used to make cookies. So he went home that night, and just started making cookies. He was so he fell, so in love with the process of baking cookies, and giving them away, that in Hollywood at that time, that became his trademark. Whenever he take a meeting, he'd bring a small bag of his famous chocolate chip cookies. So he kind of he had this reputation around town as the cookie man. So one night, he's meeting with Quincy Jones, his secretary, they're having dinner on the Sunset Strip, and she says, you know, Wally, you and I should start a cookie store. And he left that meeting. And that idea has stuck in his head ever since decades later. So in 1975, Wally opened the very first chocolate chip cookie store. And I hope by today's standards, or there's, there's candy stores, there's cookie stores, back in the day, that wasn't, he took a big risk to try something brand new. And it took off, he became a pop culture icon. He was on every TV show. And for 10 years, he kind of ruled the roost in cookies until he didn't, and he lost it all. But should we go there do anything?

Alex Ferrari 13:37
I mean, we have to watch the movie, they have to watch the movie. So that's

Jeff MacIntyre 13:42
I don't want to give it all away.

Alex Ferrari 13:43
Exactly. Well, I actually, we were discussing before we got on air that I actually saw while he on Shark Tank, he was pitching his new cookies that he was trying to his new cookie companies trying to launch. But just just just know everyone that watched the movie, but generally speaking that while he lost everything, lost his company. It was pretty it's a pretty brutal story, a pretty brutal entrepreneurial story. And and then this, this documentary is about his comeback. I'm assuming hence the name.

Jeff MacIntyre 14:13
Right. And it digs into some of the pitfalls along his path. And it's a great lessons for anyone in business. You don't sign contracts without really understand what you're signing the big thing that kind of crippled them since the 80s. And what he's been trying to overcome ever since when these companies would take him over, he signed away the rights to use his own God given name and likeness for any future big good company. And that's all he does cookies. So they prohibited him for using what everyone knows him for. And he started like 12 other cookie companies since famous Amos, but nowhere along the way was he able to say hey, you out there cookie lovers. I'm the guy who started that cookie that you remember in love That really hurt him and That's why he didn't get a deal on Shark Tank because he has no access to one on that show said, Yeah, you're just another random cookie on the shelf now, we can't tell the public who you were. So that was really tough. But I think the better takeaway from the film, the inspirational lesson is, despite of setback, after setback, nothing stops this guy. He continues to persevere at 85. And he's trying to start his quote, unquote, final final cookie company. But nothing slows him down. And that's a great lesson for all of us, especially in this space. Really hang on to?

Alex Ferrari 15:35
Absolutely, absolutely, you can never, we filmmakers we have, like I said, we only have a sickness that once you're bitten, you can't get rid of it. And it flares up and it goes dormant, but it's always there. It's always there. Now, you have to be smart in how you manage the symptoms. It's good. I like that. I'm going to use that one. I'd like that. Hashtag, baby. And now, if you don't mind me asking what was the budget of this documentary?

Jeff MacIntyre 16:01
Since I wear all the hats, mainly, because I like the cover of my bald spot. I shot it produced it, edited it. So hard cash, hard costs, were roughly 15,000. And that included everything. It's nothing, I tried to keep my productions low.

Alex Ferrari 16:22
And that's very smart. I've been yelling that for the top of the mountain for a long time, keep your overhead as low as humanly possible. So 15 grand for a documentary with a known entity like famous Amos was, I mean, everybody, you just say famous Amos, every one of those other cookie guy have his documentary about the cookie guy. So so you actually have a winning formula. Here, you've got a known person who's very recognizable around the world, just by the name at least. And then you also have very low cost. So this is a perfect like, if you were coming to me and I was consulting you on this, I'll be like you are a perfect candidate for self distribution, without question. So what made you decide to go down to self distribution route, as opposed to going down the traditional route where you could have easily, I think, gotten a distribution deal off of this. And you might even been able to get some sort of MG because of the topic. And because of the star of the documentary.

Jeff MacIntyre 17:21
One step back before I try to dodge your question. And so another great thing that was in our benefit, and I think it's smart as filmmakers to really zoom out and survey the entire landscape of what's going on and some of your main subjects lives. What is your network like? And this was right at the time, we embarked on this, we knew he was going to be on Shark Tank whenever you can leverage somebody else's Free Press. I mean, this episode is rerun probably eight, nine times. And if you were I were trying to drive by a 10 minute slot on that network, forget it. There's no way we could afford that kind of ad, ad money. So that was great to put him back on the radar of public consciousness on that show met helped in our efforts. And But yeah, I mean, I'm kind of in the same rocky leaky boat as other indie filmmakers thinking, well, it let me Google film distribution. I mean, listen to Alex's show. I know he interviews some distributors now and again, these must be the good guys. So I'll blast them all with emails, links to trailers, get them excited. I did all that. And I was met with 90%. of FSU. We have no interest. Thanks. But no thanks. The one or two who bid on the chocolate chip. You know, the standard crappy offer. I threw they threw the flame in the dumpster to see if I wanted to buy the dumpster before the fire really took off. And it was at this time I was getting really frustrated. And that's when I stumbled upon your buddy Rob hardy had a course film audience blueprint where it taught you how to go find an audience for your film, identify niches and then market directly to them. And that course really was an eye opener. Because at the moment, I knew I couldn't take on Hollywood's marketing machinery there was no way I can compete with their ad spends, match them around spending them we will always lose on that front. So the the shotgun approach Hollywood uses to spray out their message to everyone hoping that everyone is their niche and their audience can't work for indie filmmakers. So I thought the only way I could survive this is do a laser targeted niche focus with my market. Find the niches that I think the story resonates with and market direct. And through taking this course it gave me the confidence to step out on my own after getting a couple crappy offers from distributors and I just felt that I could do better. Maybe not. Maybe I didn't the first round. Didn't back that principle. But I still have hope that when I do launch 2.0, I'll be a better arm to make a much bigger splash the next time.

Alex Ferrari 20:10
So how did you focus I because now I'm, I'm kind of breaking this down and analyzing the film and how I would approach it. It is a niche film, but it's a fairly large niche. Are we talking about? You know, seniors? Because he's older? Are we talking about entrepreneurs because of who he is? Are we talking about cookie enthusiasts? Like, who are your niches and how to hack my Excel talk? How to do all that? So how did you first of all identify those niches and, and the thinking in those three niches I just threw out there. Some of them are obvious. Some of them are not like senior seniors is not an obvious choice. But it is a niche that I think that you could address with this film. How did you first of all, pick your niches? And then how did you plan to target them?

Jeff MacIntyre 21:00
So we just broke down? At its core, what are this film's two or three major messages? What groups of people would make them say hell, yes, I want to get to know Wally, I want to hear his story out and be moved by it. I want to find similarities. So seniors, of course, and that was just kind of a no brainer based on Wally at the time when we started shooting, he was 82. And his story is so inspirational. And it really plants to seed and other seniors, people who are retired, it's never too late to start a fresh chapter. There's always a blank page waiting for you to turn your passion into something profitable to start a business even if it's crocheting toilet seat covers, if you love crocheting, look at Wally, he turned his love for chocolate chips into a viable concern, and it brings him joy. So I think that's a great lesson for seniors. And as you know, today's seniors have never been more active. So thought they get and then of course, there's the entrepreneurial the small business owners. And I think when I do my kind of phase two revenue run, I will reach out to business schools. And I will cut to different versions of this film to sell to the educational space, because his story is so chock full of great business lessons that are timeless, really. And that brings a lot of hope. And I'll also, once again on the phase two revenue scheme reached out to all these assisted living facilities, retirement communities that are in desperate need of programming. There's activity directors in every one of these retirement communities that are dying for fresh content. So instead of just selling them a DVD, I put together a whole activity in a box. So this includes the film a discussion guide, it includes activities, and it includes an opportunity to start a club. And this really eases a lot of their pain, like what should we do with all these retirees? Well, I think if you could solve other people's problems with your art, I mean, those are just checks that will hit your account eventually. So that's really the two main niches I considered bakers and cookie lovers, but it was too broad early on.

Alex Ferrari 23:27
Well, I mean, to be to be fair, though, like seniors and entrepreneurs are two very broad, their niches but they're pretty large. They're pretty large

Jeff MacIntyre 23:37
Incredibly broad. Yes. So maybe I didn't drill down enough. I got lazy, and I did I mean, as you know, is is a grueling process. To make the film to finally get it out. You're pushing it through the creative birthing canal, and it's painful point. That's where a lot of filmmakers have run out of gas, not only physical, psychic, creative gas, monetary gas for for many, and they don't have the juice to take you the next mile. And to me, I know you probably agree the next mile is the most important the marketing mile. Oh, absolutely. We better have our best shoes strapped on for that last leg of the journey.

Alex Ferrari 24:15
Most filmmakers don't understand that before. Like when you and I were coming up, making the movie was the toughest part. It was the most expensive part. There was no access. You know, just doing a color grading session would cost you $300 an hour. You know, it was it was insane. But now making the movie technically is the easiest part of the entire filmmaking process. And we've been trained, and Hollywood has been putting out this message that you put out all the audio, you put out all the art first and then you hand over the business of somebody else to handle where in the new film economy, you've got to know everything from script all the way to how to generate revenue with your film. And if you don't understand that, that last part after that final cut is cut and the deliverables are ready, you're done. You're done. And and most filmmakers don't get that, but they learn the hard way.

Jeff MacIntyre 25:13
They do. And it either drives them away, or it makes them stronger once their wounds heal. And to me this this last leg of the race, the marketing, it's like, it's like climbing a mountain. It's a slog. It's climbing a mountain barefoot through three feet of snow with COVID, positive Puranas nipping at your heels just to get into the summit, right. And for many, the first time they get a blister on their little toe, oh, my feet hurt, I'm going home, and they throw in the towel. But this is where strength and resilience and perseverance for us will carry us to the top and get us to the summit where we pop the cork we celebrate. But not only do I believe is it a win for our own films to make it across the finish line. But it's a win for the whole indie film community because we show it is possible to win. Yeah, absolutely. And the more examples of that, I think the more inspiration will provide other filmmakers who may be too scared to, you know, go through the pain of the climb. So that's the vital I think where we're at today. That's one reason I released that brutally honest case study. Because we have to all be more transparent. If we truly are a community. It's up to us to start sharing our wins and our losses so we can learn from each other.

Alex Ferrari 26:28
So you so now you've just you've identified your niches, and you've identified your audience and you have your film and you've decided to go self distribution, what platform did you decide to use or platforms to decide to use to put the film out online?

Jeff MacIntyre 26:44
I guess let's one step before that I had to start generating buzz in marketing. You want to talk about because I did spend a good amount of time you building the Facebook page?

Alex Ferrari 26:56
Well, let's let's talk about that. Let's talk about the platform real quick. The next question is all about the marketing. So what platform Do you got it? I used gumroad. Okay. And then and you didn't put it on any of the other major platforms, iTunes, Amazon.

Jeff MacIntyre 27:08
Oh, okay. No, thank you. Thank you, Alex. I'm sorry. That also as part of phase two, I kind of got sidetracked I wanted to try this launch by myself to market direct to the fans with to sell and rent stream only. No, yeah, to own or rent that the film through gumroad. Which I control the majority of those profits. And then I'm going to do the whole, you know, svod a VOD tvod. That still is on the list. But to date, no, no, I have not ventured into those waters. So I'm excited to get it up on those platforms, for sure.

Alex Ferrari 27:42
Alright, so we'll come back to the platforms and your ROI in a second. But how did you now start planning on putting the word out on this film?

Jeff MacIntyre 27:51
I think two years. Two years before I released it, you know, I launched the Facebook page, and tried to start building up an audience producing a ton of original content, custom graphics meems clips from the film, so I hustled to just drive engagement and to build the numbers, I boosted posts, I put tons of money in Zuckerberg pocket with varying degrees of return. And so I mean, at the end of the day, right before a launch, maybe I had close to 3000 Facebook fans,

Alex Ferrari 28:30
Yeah, which is it's it's not It sounds like a lot but in the scope of Facebook, it's it's it's nothing. Yeah, it's not a whole lot, not for a film launch. Now, Mike, so you decided to focus all of your your energy towards a Facebook page as opposed to a homepage or blog or something like that?

Jeff MacIntyre 28:48
I know, you Good. Good question. I also had the film's website where I had set up, you know, a squeeze page. So a lot of the campaigns on Facebook would be to drive traffic to the film website where people I could capture their email, get them on a news, again, my email list, I could send them newsletters, because that's what filmmakers have to. The first thing you need to do is start building your list that is so important. And whatever you have to do I, I tried a couple different enticements, to see what would move the needle, I offered some people his recipe for free. For others, it was a discount movie ticket. And then I tracked what gave me the most bang for the buck.

Alex Ferrari 29:30
And those are called lead generators for people listening. So that's basically a lead. So you give away a freebie of some sort to get people on your list. So you can start building a relationship with them. And you provide a tremendous amount of value to them with that lead generation, whatever that might be. Could be video, could be PDF, could be a recipe could be a checklist. It could be 1000 different things as long as it's really irresistible to the audience you're targeting. So that and then if you don't mind asking how big was your list when you launched

Jeff MacIntyre 30:02
Pass.

Alex Ferrari 30:03
Okay, so the email

Jeff MacIntyre 30:05
Wait, no, dammit, you're driving me to drink it was pathetic. Okay, it was truly pathetic. It was no, it was like 121. Okay, so big fail, big fail there.

Alex Ferrari 30:21
Alright, so, okay, so you brought you brought your UI. So you have a small, very small email list. And you've, you focus a lot of energy on Facebook, and you're getting people into your funnel and things like that. So out of all of that, and you have gumroad as your, your main place that you're going to be selling your film. So, right, the Okay, how much did you spend on Facebook ads on your launch? And how many ads to use?

Jeff MacIntyre 30:50
Um, so I ran 121 ads. Now this Keep in mind, this is probably to you. through February into February right to the launch. 121 ads, I dropped $1,383. Not a penny more in ADS. And not anymore? Hell no. is Zuckerberg got enough of my hard earned money? Yeah, there he is. And this is just to build on your last point why it's absolutely crucial to own your audience's info because with one algorithm change, poof, all your connection to your potential fan, oh, it's gone. You don't want any other social overlord to control your fan base, you must be able to reach out directly and communicate with your people. That's why you have to build a list.

Alex Ferrari 31:42
And well, that's exactly what happened with Facebook originally, if you can remember, like we're talking about eight years ago or something like that. You used to be able to post something on your Facebook page and write 30 40% of people would see it. Yeah, now it's a half a percent for free it unless it goes viral unless it gets shared. And unless something else happens organically, generally speaking, it's a pay to play. So that changed the business model for millions of companies around the world, millions of people around the world overnight. So you always have to play in your own sandbox, you have to control the sandbox, because you play in somebody else's sandbox. You play by their rules, YouTube did the same thing. People were making a lot of money off of their ads, and all of a sudden Facebook just when Amazon their affiliate marketing pack, they turn no more. And people lose their minds, because you are, you're completely dependent on that platform. So 100% agree. The email list is the most powerful thing. Any marketer has more powerful than 1,000,002 million followers on Facebook. It doesn't mean

Jeff MacIntyre 32:46
You're exactly right. And to do it again, I would focus more effort on pointing all my ads to that landing page. But keep in mind and I think a lot of indie filmmakers suffer from this early on. We really we get drunk on the dopamine likes and shares it is intoxicating

They like me they really like me.

Oh my god, I don't have to spend money on those therapist I just have to post something. But listen up You damn indie filmmakers. Yes hustlers. This is really important. never confuse the like button with the buy button. One causes a temporary chemical reaction. The other produces a long lasting financial one. And never get wooed in by a like or share. Because those are meaning their vanity metrics that won't pay your rent. You can't call your landlord and say, Oh, you know what? This month's rent? I'm, I'm a little short. You take likes tonight.

Alex Ferrari 33:47
I can give you I can give you 20,000 followers is that because I pay my right? Well, that may have some value. You're awesome. But though it doesn't, because if you just given followers away, this doesn't mean it doesn't work. You could buy followers, right? You can empty it like tomorrow, you can spend i think i think the number is like 20 or $30,000. And you can have a million followers. It seriously that's literally the cost of buying followers. But it means nothing. It's complete vanity because you their people, their robots, or their fake accounts or their people from God knows where, who have no interest in what you're doing. So it's basically just like, look how cool I am. I remember I was spoke to a filmmaker, that that decided to spend. I think he spent like $7,000 on YouTube views to get his trailer to be viewed over a million times. And the movie cost like you know, it was like a low budget $50,000 like action horror film or something like that with like, you know, I think Michael Madsen was in it, or Eric Roberts or something like that. So and he was using his his mind. And he was a little bit out there as far as ego is concerned. And that's saying a lot because we're We're all crazy. But he then called all the film distributors like, Look, there's a million people who saw our film, you've got to buy it, guess what, it didn't really work and they lost $1,000 because of it, because that's vanity. Total vanity, it's command entity.

Jeff MacIntyre 35:17
And that's the thing, you know, likes can be bought, but sales have to be earned.

Alex Ferrari 35:23
And, and before you commit, the thing is with sales, especially with independent film, you've got to put your value proposition has to be massive. If you're if you're trying to go outside that normal world of like iTunes, Amazon places where people are very comfortable spending their money because their credit cards already on file, they just click a little button. And it's done. When you're going to a platform like gumroad, or Vimeo, Vimeo or something like that. They are announced, they don't know who this is. So now you want me to pull out my credit card, type it into the site that I have no idea about to watch a documentary about cookies or to watch an independent film that I made about filmmakers running around Sundance, like it doesn't, you know, it's it's it's not it's not a good business strategy. And I love gumroad Don't get me wrong, I think they're great. And VA checks before they were bought by Vimeo was great as well. Right? But if you're adding another few layers to the process, which creates less sale, so let me ask you, since you've been so forthcoming with your numbers out of that 1000 level those 11 $100.83 1383 1383 Okay, 1383 1383, what was your ROI was your return on investment.

Jeff MacIntyre 36:39
So these numbers, I think, covered the first two weeks of launch. That was all point in that video to say, Hey, this is what self distribution can do for you if you follow all the steps the gurus give you. So the grand total, that week was $36.94.

Alex Ferrari 37:01
Now that's a toy, that's 36 American.

Jeff MacIntyre 37:06
USD USD. But keep in mind, but then I it was that was already depressing enough. But then I said, Oh, it's not 36. Because to test gumroad, I did a couple of test transactions. So the grand total now let me check my math here. It was $29.96 for a launch of a film that took five years. 1300 83 bucks in advertising.

Alex Ferrari 37:34
Wow. Yeah, exactly. So So do you mind if I can kind of dissect this situation a little bit. Get your chainsaw out. I want I want to, I want to because I want to I think this is really great. And I think why you put the video out originally. And I will put that in the show notes. That video is amazing that it's like 40 kilometres an hour. It's insane Manifesto. It's a manifesto. It's a fantastic video. I think because you want to help filmmakers. So I think this is a great learning moment. So you did a lot of the concepts, right? You You found you have a niche product, which is a niche film that's aimed at certain groups, which you could arguably get to it is a valuable a good value proposition because it really isn't anything like this out there. And then the now that's the good stuff. And you you wanted to self distribute, you put it on a platform so you can control the money also good. There's a lot of that stuff. And then you started doing targeted Facebook ads, and you even started building an email list to a certain extent. So I think you've discussed it already. We said it. The biggest mistake you made is all of these ads that you were spending money on. We're not into a funnel. We're not direct the aimed at that email building list. Now, real quick before you slaughter me, guys, I'm not beating them up guys. Listen, I'm not beating him up. This is why he's not

Jeff MacIntyre 39:08
No, he's being incredibly kind to other things I did, or I attempted to do. But the other party's bailed on but I really believe in and I think this is really key for especially documentary filmmakers. I reached out to influencers, who I felt would gel with this film who have an audience that totally would love Wally's message. And let's say for example, a business blog or one of the top business ball bloggers as a podcast, that decent audience, and I analyze and I think every filmmaker you should come up with is this spreadsheet where you put your list all the influencers, that that could relate to your niche and then you also put all their social numbers, how many followers do they have? That's important. You want to align yourself with big beefy networks. I reached out to him I said, Hey, listen, I want to try something new for marketing a film. I'd like to work with you and create a course, I want to create a course that uses Wally's story, to really drive home some of the principles you teach part of your mission statement, and you you're watching the film, you'll pull out five key business lessons in this film, and then I'll produce it for you, we offer it to your audience as an add on to the film, or if you want to give it away as a value add great. But if you make a course, because as you know, courses are huge, and all these guys are looking for fresh content, I thought it would have been a slam dunk, and I got one or two people on the hook, and then they just they vaporize. But I think that is key because then they they have skin in the game. And they're going to work to promote this course that they can then monetize themselves. So I recommend that

Alex Ferrari 40:49
Yeah, absolutely. Education, online education, especially post COVID. Is, is a huge, huge, huge, huge. And as I'm sure you following what I do, I've added a tremendous amount of education to my business. And that's something that I've because that's what the audience wants. That's what my, my, my tribe wants, what my customers want. And the people that I I'm trying to serve want. So yes, absolutely. In my book, film, Rise of the entrepreneur, I talk about courses as one many of many ways you could do it. So to break it back to you. Yeah, so that was great. So like, if I was gonna, if I was gonna go down this road with this film, I would have, first and foremost, I would have seen if there was this, he couldn't go after another cookie company because he's competing with another cookie company. So that that you can't kind of leverage that you might have to, you can maybe find some sort of entrepreneurial organizations, nonprofits, things like that, that you could have maybe partnered with, to get the word out, get on their email list, start leveraging their emails list. And then why you haven't created a course specifically an entrepreneurial course of your own based off of his, that's something you should be doing, because I think you'll make a lot more money selling that course off of his name and getting caught him into it, by the way, and can you give him? Oh, yeah, I plan to Yeah, absolutely. So you partner with him on a course on entrepreneurial course. And that's a huge that would be a huge, huge moneymaker revenue, it's kind of like really low hanging fruit. In my mind, where I see this personally, as the film is elite, lead generator, it's a it's a loss leader, there is if you can make some money with it great. But if you can't, it's all good, you should be able to generate enough other things that could do it. Like if you could reach out to sort of the top or those kind of like sheffy, bakey kind of companies, and see if you can incorporate that into their world somehow, where you give the movie away look, Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead did this so beautifully. I use them as a case study in my book. And he literally gave the movie away. And he partnered with the Breville juicer in the movie, and that when I went to go buy my Breville juicer, because that's the juicer I was going to buy, because that's the movie I saw. So it was great marketing, right, I went to Bed, Bath and Beyond. And when I went to go buy it, guess what was sitting right next to it, a DVD of the movie, if you buy it, you get a copy of the movie for free. And it just was he built an entire business around this concept of juicing. there's potential for that here. In the cookie side of things in the baking side of things you can partner with companies have in regards to how you how you create your baking educational baking packages, there's so many different things that you can do to kind of combine him and and the film and try to generate other revenue sources, obviously, t shirts, hats, aprons, baked goods, things like that. But if you're able to create this, but you're now creating an ecosystem, with your film, and if you can create that ecosystem and I think that's one place where you could you could do probably a bit better now it's actually not focused on so much on the getting the revenue from the movie itself, but from all these other revenue sources, because it is a it's a it's a absolutely film intrapreneurial play like it The movie is a giveaway almost

Jeff MacIntyre 44:30
100% and there's a real evergreen quality to it too. Absolutely. And that's something like I said for phase two, it's institutional sales to it's reaching out, like I said to the senior homes, business schools, right and repackaging it in that form. And I think I forget which hotel chain maybe radition they one of their trademarks is they actually leave out hot chocolate chip cookies for guests. So I've while back you know, I just try to be unconscious. with them, too. Why not put Wally's face on these cookies or use his recipe, and we could put the D we could stream the movie on the hotel video on demand systems for a couple months. Airlines. Oh, there's Midwest Express. It was a Wisconsin based airline years ago used to give out hot chocolate chip cookie. Once again, pivot, give out Wally's new cookie, and you get to watch his the movie free in the in the seat back, or stream it in?

Alex Ferrari 45:28
Is there a package? Do you have a package where you get cookies and the movie? For Sale?

Jeff MacIntyre 45:35
Early on? Yes. But once again, the thing with Wally is when we embarked on this, this journey, he actually had kind of a good thing going he had started a cookie company called cookie Kahuna, which when you watched him on Shark Tank, that was the company he was promoting, but wouldn't you know it? couple months before we release, he splits from that company.

Alex Ferrari 45:58
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Thank you. Moment of silence, moment of silence. And then for all the one one table.

Jeff MacIntyre 46:16
Yeah, I'm not gonna pull the bottle up again. And drink. I already did that when it happened. But yeah, he really threw us for a curve. But then the story only got a little more juicy, because then he had to do so he had to leave his home state to try to start another company. And it was a victim of elder abuse in this other state he went to so the story got really wacky. Um, but yeah, that's just kind of in true Wally form. He's and he'll tell you, he's never been a good businessman. He's a great marketer, but he never truly, you know, understood the whole business thing.

Alex Ferrari 46:50
Well, I mean, like, it might even even that you can go down to Costco and buy cases a famous Amos cookies and package them yourself and sell them. I mean, you could arguably, right? There is Yeah, exactly. You know, like, if he's like, Look, I mean, if you could, you could do something like that. I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot of potential here. I think you said this, you said this in the in your video is like it wasn't lack of plan as much as it was execution. And figuring out under percent, those kind of dialing in those certain things. Because of like, if I was trying, like, it's serious, like if I sat there started thinking about how to market this, I would be creating a bigger value propositions, like crazy like cookie packages, and baking and all these other kind of revenue streams, and seeing what I can leverage as far as audiences through other companies and things like that, as opposed to going down the road of influencers are great. And going down the business side is great. And I love your ideas with the senior living and the cruise lines in airlines and business schools and all that. That's excellent. I know. I know. One documentary filmmaker made over a million dollars with a senior based film with the age of champion. Yeah, those guys yeah. And Chris. Yeah, they killed I based a lot of this on them. They're incredible what they did.

Yeah, and I think you could go to that same Senior Living convention Once COVID is done right and sell and sell licenses. There is just no question. You could do that as well. So there is definitely a bright future for the great cookie comeback. There is definitely a bright future. So we discussed what you've done right in a few things that you did wrong as well. Let me see Hold on a second. Cuz we covered a bunch now that so yeah, we covered a lot of stuff already.

Jeff MacIntyre 48:53
I mean, if you want to if you want to dive into I did get a couple offers from distributors,

Alex Ferrari 48:58
So Okay, so with distributors specifically because let me tell you what, let me see if I can guess. So. Okay, let me see if I can guess these deals. No money upfront. No, one zero. So no. MGS Okay, great. So no money upfront. I'm gonna say it's gonna be an eight to 10 year length, give or take. If I was lucky, but okay. Yeah. All right. A little 15 years. Yeah, I was trying to be nice. It's about it's about 15 years. Right. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, then there was also called the the marketing expenses of course, which still cap and it's gonna range. I'm gonna say on the less predatory side 50,000 on the more predatory side 100,000 little lower, but yeah, 40,000 30,000 think they Yeah, yeah. Like 20 20,000 Okay, that was actually that's not a bad marketing cap. But then that means you'll never see. No, I'll never see anything. Anything. You'll never see anything. It's basically a loss leader at that point. Um, those were the deals you've gotten. But that's the standard deal. And if you would have been a lesser filmmaker in the sense of your knowledge, you would have just bought bid on one of those and prayed because you're like, oh, it only cost me 15 grand, you know, I'll, I'm sure I'll get at least that back.

Jeff MacIntyre 50:19
Never, which you won't, which you won't. And thanks to guys like you and Rob Hardy. I mean, you've, you're really rattling the cages and shouting this from the mountaintops, and you're keeping us awake. And it's all of our responsibilities to stay sober, and not be wooed. Because once again, just like likes and shares, it's very intoxicating when you get an email or return email from a distributor, oh my god, they like my film. And then you know, the Hollywood red carpet fantasy starts playing in your in your mind. But no, you have to shut that down. You got to pull the plug on that projector. Because it rarely ever works out that way. And it's just it's like waiting. It's high school prom, all over again, where you wait a week before the big dance to ask a girl out. And your options are so limited by them. And you're really nervous and you're desperate. They all smell that on you. And you get a bunch of noes in a day three, two days before the prom and eventually this one girl says yes. And you're so elated and relieved. Despite her reputation. She still said yes. Right. The chances that she'll show up or, or actually be there at midnight or dance with you. lopper comes on time after time.

Alex Ferrari 51:32
Well, obviously, isn't this the beginning of every Blake Edwards film? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Jeff MacIntyre 51:44
Um, and oh, and then by the end of the evening, absolutely. No. Distributing will be going on.

Alex Ferrari 51:51
No. There'll be no distributing. No distributing, no distributing at all is going to happen. Now, did you think of possibly going with a film aggregator to get your film up on these platforms? Is that something you're thinking about doing?

Jeff MacIntyre 52:05
100% and this is an area that I really haven't dipped my toe in the water enough. I mean, filmhub seems very intriguing. No,

Alex Ferrari 52:14
I'm sorry. That was just a twitch in my neck. I apologize.

Jeff MacIntyre 52:17
Oh, gotcha. I think it was Friday and I'm going to replay the video. But aside from them tell me who should I call or all all of us are on the edge of our futons Alex teetering on the edge

Alex Ferrari 52:34
Well, because because of the the whole distribute debacle and how I heavily promoted them for two years it's one of the reasons why I came out so heavily guns have blaring against them when I found out what happened I try not to recommend any specific company because a company that could be good right now is not a company that's going to be good six months from now and I found that anytime I've released one of these podcasts, they are evergreen and I hear people are like oh I went with this distributor because they were on your show and then I'm like oh but they're not good anymore because they did this or that and their companies this now and I have to delete that episode so I Wow Yeah, I've become ever since distributor have become very militant. So I if I if I hear any negative thing about a past company or guests that I've spoken to that could possibly harm filmmakers, I go back and delete it and I delete it from everywhere.

Jeff MacIntyre 53:33
Well, thank you, but on behalf of all of us, thank you because we do look to you and others in the space for kind of sage advice because we don't have access to these big guys so you're in a really I think a unique position and you know it to be able to bring us people that we cannot connect with so we take that to be almost an endorsement when I get your position. But the the deal I got was from a guest from one of your past podcasts a distributor that I've checked your library to see if they're still on not to say

Alex Ferrari 54:04
Oh, I know they are sharks. I know exactly. You just by the terms. I knew who they were. And they are no they are no longer on the on the podcast.

Jeff MacIntyre 54:13
Right? Yeah, rhymes with crappy toss, but which was the nature of the deal?

Alex Ferrari 54:21
No one will get that I have no idea what you're talking about, sir. But oh, what a world what a world it is. It is it's an insane world and it's getting insane Are you know can 2020 be over with please is a general statement, let alone everything else. If I would have told you in January, that not only will the entire world shut down and the economy would shut down in the United States. But all movie theaters will be closed. There would be no summer blockbuster season whatsoever. Without any real foreseeable future of movie theaters coming back to what they are, and that the only lone film that might hold some sort of theatrical hope. And it's a, it's a, it's a Hail Mary, not because of the film, but because of the circumstance is a film that has very few stars in it. And it's based on based on an original IP created by Christopher Nolan called Tennant. And right that, and don't get me wrong, Robert Patterson and stuff like that. But you know, they're not just not a giant Marvel film. So actually, the Marvel DC and James Bond films were pushed, because they were scared, but they're hoping the tenant might open and they're still talking like, as of this recording, you know, it might, we might, we might hold on to it. I don't know. That's a $200 million. Plus, gamble. theatrically it time. And by the way, you have to watch that film theatrically you that's the way you watch a Christopher Nolan film. You watch it in IMAX, if at all possible. But if I would have told you all that you said, Alex, you're insane. You're insane. Put the bottle down, Alex. Come on. Exactly. But that's the world I live in. And I've been, you know, I've been saying this for a while that Rome is burning. And the Coronavirus, unfortunately has added a lot of gasoline to that fire in our industry. And it's gonna it's never going to die, but it will shift. And as filmmakers need to shift with it need to pivot need to figure out new ways to make this work and use the new technology at our disposal that we can use to empower us level instead of defeating us. So to go back to what you were saying as far as aggregators are concerned, I'm not sure that it makes financial sense to go with an aggregator for your film, and I'll tell you why. Because if you're spending money to get on iTunes for t VOD,

Jeff MacIntyre 57:00
No, never I'd never do iTunes. Okay, so for a film like this, there's so little what I've heard there's so little return on investment. I'm not going to spend granted a half to make $24.

Alex Ferrari 57:12
Correct. Exactly. So it so it ends you're not going to well, first and foremost t VOD, as a general statement is pretty much a dead. It's dead for independent filmmakers unless you could drive. Unless you can drive tremendous amount of traffic to those spaces, then you can make but being found organically yet not not going to happen. So iTunes, Google Play Fandango and those kind of T VOD places not worth it. Amazon, you could upload yourself, it will take a lot longer if you upload it yourself. But other than if you went with, you know, another a distribution company or an aggregator, but you could do it yourself. And they do take a big chunk, but they are the biggest marketplace where everybody's on it. And everybody's comfortable hitting that, that that that rental, if you're gonna put it on TV, I will put it up for 99 cents. Because it's better than the three cents you're going to get per hour screened on amazon prime. So that would be my suggestion. Don't spend three to four or $5,000 with an aggregator to get them on all these platforms, because that's a mistake that a lot of filmmakers make. And you really should try to focus your energies as much as you can on one major platform, if at all possible. And I think Amazon will probably be the best bet for you. If you can find a way to get on a VOD, that's where I think your money is going to be made. And I think a VOD is right now as of this recording, a VOD is where the money is. And I agree LIKE TO BE TV to be Pluto. Peacock is coming out. There's so many of these. These a VOD platforms coming out where that's the only place people are making money right now. It's six months. I have no idea. In a year. I have no idea. But right now. That's where money is made it look like when I released my first feature. I sold it to Hulu. That's not possible. No, not No, not not possible. So I actually sold it to China through foreign distributor. Not possible. Not possible though. So there's moments of time that things are available. Like there was a moment for TiVo in 2010 1112 13 t VOD was killed it was killing it. s VOD was not there and there was no Eva then S five started picking up and so on. You might is a big might, you might want to talk to a good qualified producers Rep. To see if they can pitch it to a Netflix or a streaming platform and see if they would take it take it on. I actually will Glenn Reynolds and Sebastian Torres. Both of them have been on the show. They're both really good producers reps who actually do what they say they do. And they actually care about filmmakers might be a possibility. No, they don't exist. I know they're they're unicorns they're actually unicorns in the space. But that might be a possibility as well. Again, it's a conversation. It's a conversation is not a guarantee there's a conversation.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:00:18
It's, it's worth having. I did speak with a couple of producers reps and they just really turned like in your other job do you sell used cars? Yeah, really slick and slimy?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
Yeah, and most producers reps, most sales agents, um, you know, a lot of them are very predatory. And a lot of them are very slow. Yeah, I can get you this or I can get you that. And I could do this. And I could do that. And like, you know, Look, guys, do you believe you can make some money with this from make a frickin phone call submitted to Netflix? If you make it? We're gonna cut we'll cut we'll cut the deal. All right. If not, forget it. Well, yeah, moving on, you know, that's what I need you for, if you can make it happen, great, let's cut a deal. If not, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of money for one platform, you know, or this or that. It's just not that kind of film. But that's those are, those are some the avenues I think you can go down. But listen, man, I appreciate, Jeff, that you've come on and talks so freely about this process. It is a rarity. I do anytime filmmakers want to do this, I generally, if it's a good story, I definitely want to bring them on the show, because I've had a few of these bad distribution, story kind of situations on the show, and they are very popular. People love them. And I think it's a real good service to the community to actually hear people who are in the trenches, going through it, figuring it out. But what I love about you is that that was 1.0 release 1.0 now you're planning release 2.0, which is a whole other world. And please let me know what happens with release 2.0 I'd love to hear what happens, how you're able to generate revenue, I think you have a lot of potential with this film,there's just there's a lot of money that could be made. And it can help a lot of people to watch this and inspirational wise and, and things.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:02:02
And and that's the gold turning a loss into a win. And these are all I think losses are real, they're teachable moments and lean into it because I was kind of part of the struggle. Do I really want to release this to the world and say, Hey, I failed. But the community has been really supportive. And, and I have to give a shout out you know, who kind of inspired this was a guest you had on your show? Naomi?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:27
Yes.Naomi McDougal Jones.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:02:29
Right her bite me film. She did the whole cross country tour. And she's amazing. She cut an incredible YouTube series, which I implore every filmmaker to watch her little tear her road trips, it

Alex Ferrari 1:02:40
Its available. It's available on Indie Film Hustle TV.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:02:44
Oh, wonderful. Watch it, you'll learn a ton. And maybe it'll light a fire under you. Yeah, she was great. Try something new.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:51
And she interviewed a couple filmmakers who then I brought on as well who had a horrible distribution deal as well. And they actually like they were brutal. They just like, Oh, this is the company. And this is what they did to me. And they haven't paid me. So screw them. And this is don't say I'm like, Okay, all right.Let's do this.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:03:12
Yeah, how do you really feel that's so important. And to your audience, I just want to follow up with thank you for posting the manifesto. But to let everyone know if they actually make it through that and they're still standing. We want to continue the educational process and offer a free course. Yeah, that's where I teamed up with Rob Hardy, your buddy. And for people who watch the video they can opt in and we would like delivering over an hour and a half of free content to arm people with the right steps to find a niche and market to them directly. That's totally free.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:45
Yeah, I'll put it up. Put all that in the show notes without question. What's next? What's next for you?

Jeff MacIntyre 1:03:50
So two days after the lockdown orders came? And you're in LA you remember those texts? The the mayor sent out?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
I'm still getting I'm still getting texts about the riots, sir. So

Jeff MacIntyre 1:04:03
Oh, right. The curfew. Oh, we're cutting to close. But we better wrap this up and shut the shades. But I had met a guy at a party in a couple months earlier. And this party I only found out the next day on Facebook. It was a who's who a former child stars like every child actor was at this party. It was a birthday party for a guy used to go to junior high with and he actually was a pretty big child star Keith Coogan. his grandpa was Jackie Coogan. He was in class and he was in my million. Okay. He was in adventures in babysitting. Don't tell mom the babysitter's dead. Every 80s TV show. So I contact this guy who hosted the party who happened to be a screenwriter and said Hey, Ryan. We're not doing anything. Now. Let's do something wacky and creative. Let's come up with a show that we could, you know, put child actors in and shoot it on zoom. So we came up with the first kind of scripted zoom comedy. It's called the quarantined bunch, and we've got like six former child stars on here. Even Ted lanes from Love Boat Isaac, he makes an appearance. Guess ours. And it's a hoot the premises all these child stars, you know, the reputation they're all little. Yeah. It's called fall Thank you said it. So they used to have a support group where they met in person. But since the quarantine now they have all their meetings on zoom, or everyone could tune into their drama. So the quarantine bunch was born. And it's a fun little show, but it just shows the necessity of being able to pivot, when you can no longer produce content in a way you're used to. We have to quickly turn on a dime, and then channel our creativity in another format.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:43
And well, you first of all, you had me at support group now, but like and this is something that filmmakers today don't understand is that you know, when you and I were coming up it everything was pretty well established. Like things really hadn't changed in I mean occasional little things here VHS showed up it kind of threw a little monkey wrench in right then. Then DVDs showed up cable Remo cable was gonna knock out your channel, select TV, yeah, all this. So there's things and then you know, but then once it once Netflix showed up, and in a way, in the in the streaming space, not in the other space in the DVD rental space, but in the streaming space. Everything's accelerated so quickly that the marketplace, the technology, everything has changed so much prior to the 90s. Really, I mean, when I went to when I went to college, I learned on a flatbed. But I also learned on that Sony and the CMS 3600. Let's let's start data and the Grass Valley as well. But then I use the this is for the for the folks listening, the montage as my editing. Yes, the mind size. The montage was the the nonlinear editing system I learned on which was on Windows 311. And then I would take the floppy and walk it over to the CMS 3600 plug it in and try to get that EDL to work which it never did. Good luck and never did. But then by the time I graduated, dV mini DV starts showing up and then he started showing and then avid showed up and then every so it was kind of like it was weird. I was right in the middle of the shift. So a lot of the stuff I learned in school was pretty much useless like I I know what timecode is, I know a drop frame is you know all this kind of stuff that I needed back then betas, SPS and Digi betas and all that stuff. I mean, all that kind of crazy title safe. Oh titles, I can remember

Jeff MacIntyre 1:07:51
My wife working on movie trailers, marketing and the young bucks who come in there. When they kick back a spot because it wasn't QC properly and they come to my website. What's this thing called? titles? title safe already, because they're on a screen. Nothing's threatening them. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's these little things.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:13
But but then but now? Yeah, no, no, but that but then you have to pivot because things started changing so rapidly. You know, I went from an avid editor to a final cut editor because I couldn't find any work as an avid editor in my market. Because there everybody started using Final Cut. Because everyone started all these in house agencies in house production company started buying Final Cut because it was more affordable. So I learned that then I jumped into color. Then I jumped at the post supervising then I was directing, you know, not just commercials, but other things. So it was just this constant pivoting and shifting, where if you do like, I'm only going to make my movie this way. And I'm going to get it out this way you're done. You've got to pivot, you've got to be able to change.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:08:53
And you have to continue to evolve. If you don't keep evolving, you start evolving. And then you do a circular spiral back into the earth from where you came. And I think a lot a lot of filmmakers, the seed is planted. If you're a movie guy, the seed is planted early on when we went into this year, we were mesmerized by the flicker the 24 frames per second flicker of dreams on the screen. And we love these icons are film heroes. And a lot of filmmakers still think that's the only way they can produce their their craft their art is through the template that their icons used.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:27
Correct. And that doesn't I remember I was I remember I was coming up. And I just in 2005 I released the DVD that I sold to to filmmakers about how I made a movie a short film back then. And in 2005, there was no online education. There was no educational products for independent filmmakers. I know it's hard to believe but there was none. And I decided at that point I made $100,000 off of a short film and we sold 5000 units and we did a lot of great stuff back then. But I was if you go Back to YouTube. I actually have the first tutorials filmmaking tutorials up on YouTube. It's still there. Oh, that's awesome. And I but I do enjoy when you watch it. No, it's actually really fun. They're gonna find me there an SD in there. Yeah, look, I look so much better than I did now. But But the problem The point is that I decided not to keep going down that educational route one because no one knew what YouTube was going to be in no one knew what the whole I didn't see that much ahead. But secondly, I said, well, Spielberg never did this. Why should I Scorsese never did this, I, I'm not gonna, like I don't I'm not gonna be an educator, I'm not gonna go down this road or do something else that my icons my, my idols didn't do. And you can't think that way. You've got to think about what's new. What's the space? What's the technology? What are the platforms? How can I get my message out? How can I move my career Ford, when I jumped into podcasting five years ago, there was a lot of podcasts out there. But not nearly as many as there are now in the filmmaking space. Now, it's everybody has a filmmaking podcast. But I'm one of the few that have stayed. I'm one of the few that survived these last five years, where a lot of my contemporaries decided to just, you know, leave. But it's because I found that niche, I was like, Oh, well, there's not, there's somewhere here, I can make some noise here, as opposed to jumping onto YouTube and trying to do it there. So it's always about pivoting. It's always about shifting and adjusting and putting more tools in that toolbox.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:11:29
And staying persistent. And I think that's really the foundation of your success is you remain vigilant and persistent. And we're most don't, once again, we come back to the views. conundrum where it's tough to create content these days is a lot of competition. There's so much noise out there signal to noise, oh my god, how do you pierce through it. And it is only through consistent, creative output. And that's a lot of work to feed the beast. But then when you don't get the views the social proof. I mean, it's easy to to turn tail and say, You know what, I put eight videos up. They didn't hit I'm going home. I'm trying something new. So to stick with it. Oh, and get over the hump like like you did with your podcast. That's really the formula for success sees they'll just show up, it's digging down.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:15
Showing up is half the battle 100% and you don't have to be perfect. Don't wait to your habit all. You just got to learn as you go. But keep producing. Absolutely building your library. Absolutely no question. No, I'm gonna ask you if you get a question to ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Jeff MacIntyre 1:12:36
I'd say really explore a good trade school. I mean, refrigerators always need repairing. plumbers are in demand. During this time about

Alex Ferrari 1:12:43
Boat engine lock toilets, boat engines

Jeff MacIntyre 1:12:45
Boat to get the hell out out of the country. But what if you have to? Yes, if you're so moved by your inner child to pick up a camera. I mean, really stay sober about this big career choice and make really smart decisions. Don't give all your money to a school with the promise that they're going to arm you with the tools and the career possibilities because they won't you don't need anyone but yourself and an internet connection to be a self taught success story. So don't spend money on a film school. I'm sorry, I that pisses off a lot of people who are still in debt to their film schools. But you don't need that static anymore. Because you've got the only tool you need to start creating.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:32
Oh, no, there. Yeah, there's so much it's so much education out there either free or even paid at a much, much more affordable rate than it is to to go to a film school, which, honestly, when you start film school, if you go in there for four years, do you think everything you're learning is going to be even up to date by the time you're out? Like it doesn't make any sense.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:13:52
I mean, journalism schools up to three years ago, they still were focusing heavily on print. me Hello. This is a sign of the times calling it's 2020. Maybe you've heard Yeah, it's it's a really I mean, it's such a disservice because then you put some money in a vise grip and economic vise grips. Oh, and so write your relevant information and you get them on the hook for the next 20 years to pay you for information that won't produce a dime in their pocket and pisses me off. It does. It's, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:14:22
I mean, it's all about ROI.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:14:24
Yeah. And you have to stay focused on that. And suddenly, some, the purists will say, Oh, no, but uh, I'm an artist. I fixed my baray I can't focus on the money. But if you don't focus on the money, you'll never have the backing to create your art and buy your braids.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:40
So there's a balance and your monocle Don't forget the monocle. Oh, the monocle, sir. And let me ask you. I went to film school I went to a trade school went to full sail and Mike my education was fairly affordable. At the time, asked me how many times I've shown my degree or have been asked for my degree Like, how many times have you shown never once? Has anyone asked me? Where did you go to school? Let me see your degree. What are your qualification? Where do they just go? Can you do the job I'm going to hired to do? Do you have a real Do you have a resume? Do you have references? That's all I care about. We are carnies. And the sooner people understand that we're Tech High Tech carnies, that's what the film industry is built on. High Tech carnies, who either are in post in a closet like I was for many years, or onset, directing or onset, you know, doing other jobs. You are a carny in one way shape, or high tech carny. And in the carny world, they don't care about credentials.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:15:42
No, but in the corner word, it's all about your game. Yes, just stop someone for a second, catch an eye, hook a heart, grab someone, and then your patter. And you have to bring something very different than someone else in that marketplace can't bring. So once again, it's really getting in touch with your unique sorry for the cliche, unique value offering to the world. And you can't be scared off by maybe going down a different path. It's so important to stand out these days and have the courage to be your unique self, as the market wants that mean, we're in this era of you know, Authenticity, and authentic storytelling as a currency. So lean into that. I think that's what the market really wants more of these days. It's the only value one more tip, this episode's going on three hours, but I thank you Skype for not shutting the server's down. Another tip for young filmmakers. And this really helped me, especially if you're thinking about going into documentary, I learned so much of every facet of the process by working in TV news, because you have to be a one man band. And it may not it may because an IRA Oh, I don't want to tell those kinds of stories, you know, you're not there for that you eventually will tell the stories you want to tell. But you learn every facet of the technical process, and you become very quick. And that is really key. I don't want filmmakers laboring for five years, there's zero ROI. If you spent five years on a project, you need to turn your your your productions around much quicker and spend less money on them.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:10
Yeah, yeah, like you made your your major film for $15,000. And that's not that's doable, because of your tools and the toolbox you've put over the years 100% if you don't have to pay people to do your job, and you just be the artist, don't forget, if you were just the artists, you had your baray that's 150 200,200 $50,000 job, film. And same thing goes with me with my last film, I spent around $3,000 making my feature, but it was, but it was a you know, it was a different ballgame. But it was I just did a lot of it myself and hired key people that I do. And when I say key, there's three, um, you know, other than the actors, and you but I did that because I have 20 odd years under my belt that I have a lot of tools in my toolbox, and I carried a lot of that way to my own shoulders. If not that movie costs, you know, 100,000 bucks. You know, if we do it right,

Jeff MacIntyre 1:18:01
There's no way to get that back as indie filmmakers where a lot of us are, really have to, to learn the craft, so you can perform at all levels of it, not rely on others. And we know people, older filmmakers who still bring on a dp a sound version, and they have to hire a crew of five, which maybe you and I can single handedly do.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:22
Correct. Correct. And it's all just different, but and I think the generation coming up behind us, and behind them. They're very self sufficient. And they're handling

Jeff MacIntyre 1:18:32
And that's exciting. That is exciting.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:34
Yes. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Jeff MacIntyre 1:18:44
This sounds really crappy. It's it's multifaceted. Nobody gives a damn absolutely about your film. They don't are you. And that is, it's liberating once you can lean into that zero expectations from the world or your audience. And it's on us to help people care about something that is important to us. And you can find a common ground to where people will lean in a little if you're offering them something of value. But also, you're not a slave to what the the market thinks of your work. If this if this project causes you joy while you're creating it, Wow, that is 100% ROI. Your happiness during the creation process is huge that can never be discounted. And we forget that once we labor for a year or two, we put it online, and it just flops. And we think because we got 12 153 views, it's a failure. But we forget how much you know, fun we had and how much we learned during the process of making it.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:49
Yes, without question, great answer, and three of your favorite films of all time.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:19:56
I knew you're gonna ask that. It honestly, I'm not a real Guy

Alex Ferrari 1:20:01
three of your favorite documentaries, documentaries. Okay. I do have some favorite my favorite film is airplane. Oh, I don't know if anyone's ever given you that. Oh has it's been on the show. It's a really, you could turn on airplane right now. And piss yourself. It's so funny. I picked the wrong day to start sniffing glue. I mean, it's just so good

Jeff MacIntyre 1:20:23
You ever been in a cockpit ever seen a grown man naked?

Alex Ferrari 1:20:27
Anytime you like watching, watching barbarian films Johnny I've ever spent any time in a Turkish prison and a Turkish prison. Like

Jeff MacIntyre 1:20:37
There's easter eggs throughout that you could watch it like 10 times and you'll find something laughs So good. So again, it's I actually I sat on the plane. Next to we were going to Beijing for a project. Next to one of the I'm blanking on who are the two guys. J is J. Abrams, Abrams, Abrams and sucker, sucker. Tucker. Zuckerman. I sat next to Tucker chairs. Hilarious guy, but I mean, I love quirky. I mean, there's a guy wrote this guy's name down because I love Steven Conrad. He on the TVs, perpetual grace the Patriot on Amazon. He did Secret Life of Walter Mitty. Have you

Alex Ferrari 1:21:20
I love secret level? Well, to me, it's a great film.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:21:23
I love quirky. Just different.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:26
Fair enough. Now where can people find you and your work?

Jeff MacIntyre 1:21:31
As if they want to after this

Alex Ferrari 1:21:36
If anyone's still listening?

Jeff MacIntyre 1:21:38
I don't know good. Go to moviemarketingmakeover.com . That's how you can get this free course you could find me there. I mean, I don't know you can. Oh, I have a company. By the way. I've only had it for like 25 years. But I have a production company called Content Media Group here in Los Angeles. So you could find me there too. I love you know, opening an ear to the the up and coming generation of filmmakers. So feel free to reach out with any questions. But we're all here to support each other and to keep indie filmmaking alive into the future.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:11
Amen. Brother preach their preach, preach. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Amen. Pass the plate. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show, man, I really appreciate it. And thank you for being so honest and raw about your experience. Thank you for allowing me to beat it up a little bit. And for the scope of education of our audience, I do truly appreciate it. Because I think we do learn much more from our mistakes than we do from our victories, as I have put my mistakes out there in many, many ways, many times in my books everywhere else. But I think it's really great of you. So thank you again, for everything you've done. And good luck to you with launch 2.0.

Jeff MacIntyre 1:22:53
And thank you for keeping us all awake to the possibilities of what we can become as indie filmmakers, Alex, thank you for building this great community.

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BPS 415: From Indies to Producing Oscar Winners with Cassian Elwes

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Alex Ferrari 0:12
I'd like to welcome to the show, Cassian Elwes. How you doing Cassian?

Cassian Elwes 0:26
I'm doing great, Alex, thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:28
Thank you so much for coming on the show. My friend. I know you're in the middle of producing 75 movies this year alone?

Cassian Elwes 0:34
Yeah, you know, I keep I keep myself busy, which is getting you know, I literally wrapped a movie about eight days ago on Saturday, and Kentucky and then started shooting another one. Three days later on Tuesday here in Los Angeles. So you did I do I really do. You gotta keep hustling. You gotta keep trying, you know, you can't give up. It's a very difficult thing to make a movie happen. But I you know, I'm very driven.

Alex Ferrari 1:04
No doubt I saw your filmography for God's sakes. I mean, you've been doing it for a while and, and, you know, before you get started, thank you for making some amazing films in the 80s and 90s, while I was working in the video store, so I appreciate that. I was like, Oh, I remember that one.

Cassian Elwes 1:20
I remember that was the days of blockbuster, you know, where you go down there and go go over the racks and look at all the ones that that had multiple copies, and a bunch of them were at, you can tell the success or failure of each one. They were stocking and how many that were at rent at that particular moment. It was a different time, you know, the video stores will pretty much buying almost anything, and you can just make a movie, you know, three or $400,000 and which I you know, dead exploitation movies and sell them off to cut two companies here that in America that were looking to try to stop those video shows and and it was a great business.

Alex Ferrari 2:01
Well, yeah, and those VHS is were like, retail was like, 79.99 That's crazy. It was insane. It was I mean, I always tell people, You have no idea how much money you could have was being made in the 80s in the night,

Cassian Elwes 2:16
You know, it was interesting, you know, I got I got one of the first Betamax machines. So you know, because I decided that that it was easier to get the Betamax tapes, because you know, the video stores, they would suck some Betamax and some very few people that had Betamax machines. But I thought I'd get one because the quality was slightly better. At the beginning anyway. And then. And then I you know, wouldn't have a problem, being able to read whatever I wanted to see. And then just the sheer ease of it, being able to take a movie home and watch it happen. People don't realize how incredible that experience was. Because now of course, you can go online read anything you want to see and see it and you know, three seconds later is up on your screen. But that wasn't the case in the in the 80s. You know, the you really had to go see movies in the movie theater. And then occasionally they would play on network television. But you you the advent of the film rental business, you know, the getting getting VHS, getting VHS tapes, and Betamax as of movies was incredible. So I mean, they were literally companies like restaurants, that were just putting out hundreds and hundreds of titles. And people.

Alex Ferrari 3:21
Yeah, Canon canon trauma, fullmoon all of them.

Cassian Elwes 3:24
Yeah, they just were making money hand over fist on these things and making you know, trauma. Love, you know, the the Lloyds the greatest, you know, I'm always I've always been a big admirer of his. But you know, those films were horrific. And but people rented them. And he's the first one to say it, too. was doing.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
And I was and he's, by the way, he's one of the most intelligent people I've ever had on the show.

Cassian Elwes 3:49
And it's really was the New York Film Commissioner, you know, he's He's a lovely, lovely guy. You know, I always would love when I can, you know, we'd have an office on a quiz that with a window looking down on the present and see the Toxic Avenger and the whole kind of parade of, of his characters going down the street, you know, you look at Oh, my God, I'm surprised that no one's actually made the toxin venger yet, and to kind of studio level kind of action franchise

Alex Ferrari 4:15
Like a real like a real

Cassian Elwes 4:18
Marvely version that talks

Alex Ferrari 4:20
You know, it's so fascinating. I always tell people that in the 80s You literally if you finished a movie, you made money if you just if you were able to finish it. And then that

Cassian Elwes 4:31
One picture called the invisible maniac. And I did it with with a friend of mine cool Adam Rifkin. And we're like talking to each other. And we were both completely broke. And I said, Dude, we just need to go and make a movie. And we just need to make something really cheap. And I'll get the money quickly for it. And then we'll just turn it around. We'll make a bunch of money out of it. If we can shoot it fast. He goes, Well, I've got a great idea. I go, what's that he goes, and he was using the pseudonym riff Coogan because he didn't you know, wanted to have you know, we want to real careers Movie Maker. And we did some films together doc backward and, and the chase you for example but um, you know, he he he said I got this great idea for a movie it's called the invisible maniac and it's it's kind of a homage to the visible man. And but you know it's like a guy who's janitor in high school go invisible seal, the ghosting that close up in the, in the in the locker rooms. And and the beauty of it is we only need the star for a day because he's invisible for the rest of the picture. I was like, Oh my God, that's brilliant. We were shooting it 11 days later. And, and we shot the whole movie in 12 days. And I was joking around with him the other digs, we're still friends. And I said, Nina, do you remember the last day of shooting we were shooting in this place that was like it was at the bottom of Laurel Canyon Adventure and it's now some kind of Korean university but at the time, it was like a it was it was like a university campus, small one. And it was being used by some foreign university as a staging point in Los Angeles for for, you know, students that were taking the year off. So they had it looked like classrooms in there. And on the last night day of shooting, we shot for 18 hours straight, which, you know, if you make films, you know, that's pretty gnarly, to be going for 18 hours, you know, the as each hour winds past the 12 hour mark, you're doing less and less because everybody's just exhausted and they can't even like function anymore. And it's diminishing return because you're not getting that many shots and the six hours later that you've been shooting, and it was our last night late. Well, it's you've got to keep going and get these shots. And I said to him, do you remember that the last thing I just remember you standing in the hallway and there's like the scene where they they pulled the fire alarm? And you would like, okay, was that shot in focus? They were the guide camera was like, yes. Because was it in English? He goes, yes. All right, fine. That's good. We're moving on. And that was literally it. You know, it was, it was hilarious. But yeah, it was a different kind of filmmaking in those days. You know, really, I learned how to make films, actually in that period of time.

Alex Ferrari 7:08
So I don't mean shorter. But is that where you got your start? How did you actually get started in this in this business?

Cassian Elwes 7:15
Well, you know, it sounds kind of privileged but I when I was about 10 years old, my mother met an American movie producer was in London making a film with Warren Beatty, called Kaleidoscope his name was Ali Kassar, and they fell madly in love and moved in together. And two more children. I had two brothers already. And then they had two more, my little brother sister, and and the so from from 10 years old, we were suddenly thrown from a very normal sorry about that, for a very normal existence into this movie existence. We come to California and we would see movie stars and movie stars go to film sets. And you know, he was making films with me Missouri Breaks with Jack Nicholson and Marlon Brando. He did harbor with Paul Newman, multiple films with with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. So you know, they, we met all these mega movie stars, you know, as kids. And, and so from, from the time I was 15, I was desperate to do it. I really wanted to do what he was doing, you know that one day, I'm gonna be like, Elliot, I'm gonna wake up at two o'clock in the morning and yell at people in California, on the phone from London. And, but I don't yell, I'm not that person. He was he was he was quite a yeller. And, but he he made like 60 movies or something like that, which I just thought was credible number of movies. And you know, I've actually finally made almost twice as many. Right, he made some really good movies, he made some really good movies. And so I would watch, you know, he knew by the time I was 15, or 16, that I was really interested in what he was doing. And I'm not sure that I would do this, but he would let me go to meetings with him. He was saying, shut up and sit in the corner. And you can listen to what I'm saying. I listened to him hustling people for money. And so I kind of, you know, understood what the what the game was. And then, and then, you know, during my vacations, he'd make me go work, you know, very early age, on sets, basically getting tea and making copies of scripts and things like that, like really menial jobs. But it was good, because it was, you know, got exposure to have problems with being made and see the directors working with the actors. And, you know, that was that was an incredible thing. And then, you know, went to college, but I dropped that the parents were furious in California after I worked on a movie called The Dogs of War and had a bit of money and said I'll stay in California to like get a job, got a job worked for a company called film ways, which was you know, had success with a with a movie called dressed to kill the brand department movie. And, and then they all went belly up, ended up being sold to Orion pitches, but by that point, by the time I was 22, or 23, my my stepfather and I had had a refreshment and he said, Listen, why don't you come up with an idea for a movie and we'll do it together? And I said, I've got a great idea. I saw this movie called Fast Times at Ridgemont High and I think the idea of taking the characters Nikoli, the, you know, the Sean Penn thing of the guy with a pizza, and taking that kind of separate dude, kind of crazy thing, and putting him into Oxford University would be a funny fish out of water story. He said, I love that, let's do it. And we develop a script with a guy called Robert Boris by bars. And then we made it school awesome blues with Rob Lowe. And it wasn't quite what I had in mind. But you know, it was more romantic version of the story than I thought it was going to be kind of more kind of wacky, funny comedy, but it was it was a charming movie. And he sold it for a lot of money. And I didn't make any money out of it, which said it. But if you make a lot of money at this, at this point in your life, you'll never have any appreciation of it later. And it was a great lesson life lesson.

Alex Ferrari 10:48
But so, yeah, so you made you made a lot of film. I mean, it sounds like you were born into this, and you were just ready to rock and roll.

Cassian Elwes 10:55
I was a child of an athlete, you know, I was ready to do it.

Alex Ferrari 10:59
So then what is it? Because this is the biggest question I get from producers. How do you get money? How does it change the difference between raising money in the 80s and 90s, versus today's marketplace, which is so vastly different.

Cassian Elwes 11:16
Here's the crazy part of it, you know, it's like, it never changes. And it's the same, it's the same thing is the faces change, but the, the but the, you know, the posture of the studios remain, the face has changed. You know, there's different buyers, different people, different names, different companies, different whatever, but the same basic tenant is still true, which is that you got to have the package, you got to have the script, you got to have the idea, you got to have the director, you got to have some of the actors and, and the money. You know, I'm always a great believer that if you, you know, I I'm crazy, you know, I'm a I'm a complete gambler, I find things I want to do. And I just set the start date. So I just said about it and say okay, I'm gonna make the movie and somehow or other, you know, when the chips are down, I somehow or other theory that and also a great believer making movies for what I can raise, meaning that, you know, I can say to myself, Okay, this is a $5 million budget, but all I can do is raise $3 million for it. That's the best offers that I've got on the table and then got attached, but it for, you know, half a million dollars, I gotta figure out if I can make this actual movie for three and a half million dollars instead of $5 million. So I'm a great believer in making films. I know, there's a lot of people in our business, they get caught up in the idea of like, I gotta have my 7.3 to $3 million,

Alex Ferrari 12:38
Can't make it for a penny less.

Cassian Elwes 12:40
And the like, you know, come on, that's a joke. And you know that that was that was a skill set. Because I have, I had a whole career in the middle at William Morris, when when ran out there independent film division, just out of the blue, they hired me to come and run it for them for 15 years. And that's why I was so successful with them is because my mindset as a producer, which I brought to the agent, and part of that was totally different from anybody else inside the agency, you know, they, they would go well, I says he's got this budget for $5.3 million, and he has to have $5.3 million, or the phone's not going to be made. And I'm like, I'm in touch with me, let's meet, let's go over this, let's trigger that. And we would go over it together. And we ended up making some of the greatest independent films ever made. Because we weren't worried about budgets, we were worried about, you know, the quality, of course, you want to make sure that you're not compromising the quality of the sounds, but you know, the cost of a movie is relative. And, you know, I've seen films that cost $30 million dollars that look like absolute garbage and symbols that mean that were made for $3 million, that look incredible. So it's like, you know, the relative costs of films, to their quality is not necessarily the perfect ratio.

Alex Ferrari 13:51
So let me ask you the whole, the whole chicken and egg thing, which is like you need the package, but will you need the money to get the package and can you can't get the package without the money unless you are someone like yourself who has relationships, and you have a track record. And you might be able to put the, you know, you call up somebody like oh, it's costly. And this is gonna go, this is a serious dude. But for young producers coming up who might not have 120 films on their belt? How would you go about trying to package a film to raise money and vice versa?

Cassian Elwes 14:21
Well, you know, I always tell people that, you know, if you partner up with somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, because, you know, the business is about relationships, it's about how you meet people, how you get to know people, how you meet the agents, how you meet the people that are making decisions, how you get to, you know, somehow or other actors. You know, I've always tried to be very friendly towards the actors that I'm working with hope that I'll get to work with them again. Good example is Garrett Hedlund to I just finished a movie with I met him while we were doing my band and just hit it off with him right away. He's such a great actor. He really is incredible. And, and we tried for three and have yours for years, quite another patient that we want to do together and finally found one desperation road wishes shot, as I said, we wrapped in about eight days ago. But, you know, it's keep those relationships intact with the people that you're working with. You know, if you look through through my, my bio, you'll see that I've worked with lots of people multiple times, you know, the trick is, is to, is to keep those relationships going. And then as far as the financing is concerned, you know, there is keep your ear to the ground, as I said, find somebody who actually doesn't know what they're doing partner out with them, because only 50% of a film that is actually going to go is a lot better than 100% of something that's nothing. And you know, so people go, I don't want to give away a piece of my movie to somebody else. And they all they did was make an introduction to that. But you know what, honestly, if that was the thing that triggered the movie, then it's worth it. And then at least you have a movie under your belt. So when you call up an agent and go, I produce blah, blah, movie, you actually have a movie you've produced, as opposed to saying, Look, I've never made a movie before. But I've got this great script, and I want to make this film and agents are like, oh, yeah, please. Alright, everyone's got a great script. You know, I can't tell you how many times people call me up and said, I got this fantastic script, it's going to win a bunch of Oscars, everyone says that the movie is gonna win us. That's how many films actually do. And there's very few, you know, certainly not the ones that there's only really a few that came to me, the people patient that way, and they ended up winning or being nominated for Oscars. And so you know, but that is the dream, that's what everybody's looking for is, is that golden ticket, somehow or other the film that they make is going to be the one that scores, the the, what you have to do is keep at it, keep making movies, keep, keep doing it, because each film that you make, is another incredible learning curve. And I'm still learning and it's, you know, many, many, many movies later. And things continue to happen to me that I wasn't expecting to be hit with. And but I'm very calm. You know, that's the other thing for me is I'm very sad about it all. And you know,

Alex Ferrari 16:58
I can tell I can sense your energy already, just by talking to you just you are a chilled producer. I've talked, I've worked in the business for 30 years, I've worked as a director, and I've worked with many producers, and I've spoken to many producers. And you could tell pretty quickly that you're not the guy who's going to be on set, yelling, I'm sure there's moments. But generally speaking, that's not the thing. And that's the good sign of a good producer. But I have to ask you, though, agents, that's one of the the these not roadblocks. Gatekeepers, the gatekeepers of, of actors, so many young producers have problems, just getting through any tips on how to approach an agent of an actor or a director or even a writer when you're young producer? Well, interesting thing.

Cassian Elwes 17:41
As I said, I was an agent, I went to William Morris for 13 years. So I got to work and see the inner workings of the agency very closely, because I was, you know, as the head of a department, you know, I'd be in the department head meetings, I would be involved in a lot of the decision making in terms of what was going on inside the agency. I was, and I was working on, you know, 25 movies a year, a lot of films, anything that was not a studio 100% A studio movie was something that I would work on, meaning that if there was a studio film, but it was partially financed by independent film financing by some big company that was going to co financed with the studio, they would bring me in to help to help figure out how to make those deals, I really did watch the whole way that agencies operated inside the studio filmmaking business, and also inside the independent film making business and I, I hope, actually that I've influenced quite a bit, the way the agencies now operate inside the independent film space, because they are basically copied the formula that I came up with, of how to do it. But you know, some projects will come from people that you didn't know or never heard heard of. But somehow rather they got that script in front of somebody. Now they maybe they met somebody in a bar or restaurant and they've given the script to an actor, an actor read it. So it's pretty good. I'd like to do this. And then the first thing they do is call their agent say like, I don't know, this agent is this Matt, this producer for madam. But the script was actually pretty good. I'd like to do it, or I'd be interested in doing it. So there was there were lots of different ways that people would get into the game. Another one was that they would make friends at parties with agents assistants, and, and the agents assistant would read the script and say to their boss, I read the script, and it's really good, you know, like, all the agents really want is to make great movies. Now that doesn't always happen in our business has changed so much now that it's fact it's, it's rare that great movies are being made. They're mostly studio battery pitches that are some copy of another picture that's already been done, or a sequel or prequel or another comic book that they bought the rights to using the metaverse of that or the universe of that character to spin off a bunch of garbage that looks the same as the one that you just saw. But you know, the great and great movies that are being made are being made within the independent film sector and in the international, independent film sector. And, and so the, you know, the again, that was trying to get the scripts in front of directors, directors would would meet people in the most random ways, read the script and go Yeah, like that. So I would say don't, don't give up again, try to find somebody who does know people that is that you are sympathetic with and that or some particle within that you guys, women team up together to make something come together, it all comes down to the same thing always spin the spin the golden rule from the day I started, it's about the screenplay, if you've got a great piece of material, I'm a great believer that that movie will, that script will somehow rather find its way into the hands of the right people to be made. And because there's so few, so few scripts that are out there that are really fantastic. And if your script, your friend who wrote it, you have a fantastic piece of material, then you know, then you've got a chance you got a chance to read or read of the interest, you got a chance to act or be interested, you got a chance to other producers would read it and say we'd like to be involved in the financing company, we'd like to be involved. You know, there's many, when you have something that feels like it's a movie, and it's a real movie, a lot of people will appear out of the woodwork that will help you get this on me.

Alex Ferrari 21:22
Now, I'd love to hear your point of view on this because the film independent film space specifically and cinema in general has been devalued, so dramatically by the streamers. We're now on Amazon, you're getting fractions of a penny for an hour long play and, and you know, in the beat and we were talking about the video store days, there was a value there, there was a value went to the theater, then you would maybe you know rent it or it was a 79.99 product that you would give to video stores then sell through, there's still a $20 value there than a rental was. So there was and then it just kept getting diminished, diminished diminish, even when TVOD showed up on iTunes, it was still kind of the model of rentals. But now films are, you know, almost almost doesn't have the value. The same thing happened in music before it was an album than it was a single. And now, you know, Beyonce is not making a whole lot of money on Spotify. Not that I'm she's hurting. But you know, the the idea is it's the devaluation of art. How can a producer in today's world, you know, without the connections, like maybe you have with output deals, and maybe pre sales and things like that, that are automatic make money with an independent film, especially in this in the genre you'd like to play in dramas?

Cassian Elwes 22:34
Well, that's a very good question. And I you know, I struggled through it every day, because you see the market changing constantly, you know, part of the problem with the streaming companies is that they're making all these series, there's just so much material that's appearing, this new material that's appearing every week or every month, on their platforms that are endless, you know, is eight hours of this 10 hours of that or six hours, you know, so and also with recognizable movie stars, because, you know, during that COVID period, when when a lot of films weren't being made, there was a lot of streaming platforms that were making television shows, and they were hiring. bonafide movie stars, you know, the mayor of East East way or whatever it was the one with with with Kate Winslet was like a movie, but it was fantastic was six hours or eight hours of the movie. Really good. So you know, that they they are making and competing in the independent film circuit, because they're making films, they're making television shows that look like independent movies. And so yeah, it's getting harder. But again, I don't want to give up because I believe in what I'm doing. I don't want to give up and just say okay, it's all over the streaming companies and just making you know, independent movies that look like independent movies or eight hours long. That's okay, you know, you know, you just gotta get keep making something that turns out to be really good. And I just made a picture called robots. That is a comedy futuristic, romantic comedy with with a wonderful British comedian called Jack Whitehall, and a fabulous American actress Shailene Woodley. It was directed by Anne Hines and Casper Christiansen he's Casper is the sort of Larry David Denmark. He is long running show called clown and that he writes directs and stars and there's kind of a Larry David Danish, Larry David. And Heinz is Sacha Baron Cohen's guy. He's been running with him, Sally G. He's written everything and was nominated for Academy Awards for four out one and two. And the movie is fantastic. And I think it has a chance to really work that has been acquired by one of the one of the top independent film distribution companies I can't say who yet because they haven't made and that's why, but that movie has a shot. That movie has a real shot, and it has a shot to continue to have sequels and prequels for it because the funny funny idea And so, you know, you gotta you gotta keep keep plugging away and

Alex Ferrari 25:06
There's no easy answer is there?

Cassian Elwes 25:08
No, there isn't, you know, I, I just made a pitch with desperation rope. As I said, I wanted to work with Garrett had, I been very involved in gender politics over the last few, you know, several years on my programs that promote female directors and female writers one with a blacklist one one that I set up myself with Christina shadow, Lynette Howell and my partners in color rising what, and we bring directors, female directors that come out of colleges across the country to some instrumental ships. So this picture desperation road is directed by a woman, I've worked on one movie with her that was tiny, $600,000 movie that was incredible. And I put her into this or wanted her to direct it. And we assembled a great cast for it, you know, how do we make money from that? I'm not sure because we haven't really made any money from it yet any of us, but we will. Because it's going to turn out to be good movie. And, you know, we all work for low money upfront, but we will gambled on it. So, you know, that's the other part of it is that, you know, if you're coming into this business, because you got to make some huge score, don't chase the money, and money ain't gonna be there, you got to chase a great product. And if you grit make a product that hate to use that word, it's not a product, that's how the studio's view movies. But if you make great movies, the money will come to you somehow or other, I really do believe that, and, you know, may not be on that movie, but it'll come on the next one. And you know, you got to try to keep making something great. Because, you know, if you're just coming to like, make some huge score, that's not going to happen, then it might get lucky. But it's not it certainly on the independent film business, not gonna make some huge score up front, you'll make a big score at the back end if it works out if it turns out to be good for them.

Alex Ferrari 26:50
So you're speaking of the back end, which is, you know, that's the long running joke. Like, you know, have you ever made any money off of a point and

Cassian Elwes 26:57
That's true, you know.

Alex Ferrari 26:59
It's one of those. It's one of those things, but I wanted to ask you, though,

Cassian Elwes 27:03
The studio's most creative part of the studios is their accounting departments.

Alex Ferrari 27:07
Oh, brilliant. Which brings me to my next question. I'm assuming that every movie that you've ever made, has been sold to a reputable distributor who get your payments and reports on time, every time and you've been paid all he's choking ladies and gentlemen. So how do you deal with that?

Cassian Elwes 27:31
Yeah, I don't I don't I'm not trying to work with the back ends although on some films I have gotten big backhand like gone on the butler we you know, is so huge that it but that was a bit that was a studio film, though, wasn't it? It was Weinstein's? Yeah. So it was released that was released. But now it's bankruptcy. And I don't know what's gonna happen with that. But but, you know, the movies really good movie and there was was so successful, there was hard to hide it all. Although they did their best. And they it was it was made as an independent movie. So when we made the deal with them, it was a very aggressive deal for us. I like to take some credit for that, because I know what I'm doing in that area. And we made extremely aggressive deal on that. So I'm for were the people that invested in it. And they all made a lot of money out of it, which I'm very happy about. But, you know, I'm not in the game of like waiting for the back ends, I hope that they'll come. But that's not necessarily the way that I think about making films, I think about making a film for X and selling it for y, which is more than what it costs. Hopefully that the way we try to make more money from the films that we're making, independent films that we're making. So it's not, it's not about the back end, necessarily. Or that sometimes it comes to that you can sell the movie for anything, you know, close to what you really wanted. So you make some deal where you make aggressive back end, and you hope that the movie performs. But, you know, as you said, the business is constantly evolving is changing, you know, the day and date, which was one point is unknown, you know, was never wasn't being used at all, it's now become the norm. You know, one of the first one of the first movies that ever was a success on the day and date release was movie entaco magical, and wonderful picture at the time. We were so depressing, like, oh my god, it's not gonna be great for the movie, because we've got to come out day and date on it. And and then, you know, we got very lucky because two weeks before the film was got released that way, Wall Street, you know, the whole kind of Wall Street, whatever that thing was cool, though, is that? Yeah, they were all like, you know, if you want to know what, what that whole thing is about, you got to see this movie because it explains it very well. And, and so yeah, it was a huge success. And then after that, a lot of people started using it, they platform now it's the norm for independent films, because, you know, they realize that if you're gonna spend a bunch of advertising on a film, you might as well get it into as many different ads to the consumer in as many different ways as you can imagine, while you're spending the advertising And, and so and so that that's become the norm because in the past, we're in the old days, old days, you know, the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, you know, you'd release movie independently replayed for six weeks, then you release it on DVD and then you spent a bunch more money promote the DVD release, and then you would you know, do the pay television and then Sony, you know, it's showtime or HBO or ever bought that window would do a bunch of advertising for the film on their platform. So, you know, that's, that's all changed. People realize that, you know, why are we spending all this money three different buckets of spending money on promoting a film, we might as well just spend it all in one go and put it into every single hand that we can find whether it's on a movie screen, and home on that computer or a television screen or in the DVDs at Redbox and the supermarket might as well get it all out at the same time and get people buying as many copies of that movie as you possibly can all in one go.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
So you mentioned the butler that year wasn't a bad year for you because that's the another year another movie came out that your Dallas Buyers Club, which on paper seems like a very successful wildly well known like, it doesn't is a pitch. You know, it's not a feel good movie. But it's a fantastic film. I know. I heard the script had been bumping around for what a decade or something like that?

Cassian Elwes 31:20
Yeah, you know, I was a movie I was desperately I loved. I thought it was when I first read it, I was an agent at that time, I'd worked on a tiny film called everything put together with a guy called Mark Forster. And then Forster and I had gotten to be friends, even though I didn't represent Him. And we worked on the second picture, Monsters Ball, and which then became a huge success. And it was a little budget movie, low budget movie, but it became Yeah. Halle Berry won the Oscar for it. And then I said tomorrow, we'll come on, what's the next one? And he goes, Well, I just read the script. That's incredible. It's called dad spies. But, and I read it. I was like, what, this is a really good script, but it's very risky, risky, because it was and that 10 years, you know, it's now 15 years ago, 20 years ago, it was still very, you know, Ace was still very much a risky subject matter. And, and so we we, I said, Listen, you need to get a real movie star for this because like who I go, I don't know, like Brad Pitt two weeks later becomes vaccines. Brad Pitt's going to do it. And, and this is a long story, but I won't go into it because I tell this story a few times. But basically, Brad Pitt and his team sold a script to universal, they developed it for 10 years, nothing happened. And then there's a rule came into place at Universal that, that if a film isn't made for 10 years, the writer has the right to get the script back for a year and see if they could set it up elsewhere because they don't want the writers to never have a shot to get that movie made. And so the script came back to the original writers. And I was making a movie called The Paperboy with Matthew McConaughey. And I didn't know him. So I was chatting him up. And I was like, if you find your next pitch, he goes, Yeah, I have I go, what is it? Now? This is 10 years later, he goes the phone call the Dallas Buyers Club. And I'm like, fuck, and I called the producer. Sorry, my bad. I was rubbing Brenner. She was a friend. I'm checked in with her over the years. And she's like, Yeah, I was gonna now we're gonna do it. Right. Because like, I think it's gonna be the guy did, you know, this director that he wants to do it with and never happened, you know, and universal developed, like five different versions of the script. 1.8 we're just developing it as the cops who are chasing them, which is ridiculous. And and I said, I said, Robbie, what's happening? But she said, Well, I've got this great director called Sean McVeigh out there, and he's gonna do it. And we're shooting a cannon. We raised all the money and $78 million film and you know, we're going to do it. And as I said, bombax I really wanted to do that script. I loved it. And then as luck would have it, about three months later, the agent who'd worked with me on the butler called me opposite he can't believe this I go what she said that the Dallas Buyers Club just fell apart the people in Canada with financing it can't finance it. You know? And sometimes this is also famous stories out of the rap I've written this stories and you got the rap to deep dive you can find it how I raised the money in five days. They basically told me I have five days to come up with the money or forget it. And I did the money and five days for the phone which was insane. But I you know, I got I was making a movie called Ain't Them Bodies Saints with David Lowry. And I got that crew that was there out in Louisiana to stay on and go go to straight to New Orleans. And, you know, we set that we we shot that whole picture in New Orleans even though it's also in Texas tonight. You know, it's a fabulous Matthew McConaughey and Jared Leto are fabulous. You know, interestingly enough on that picture, the John Mark, you know, who's who tragically died last year. He wanted to use the sky Ezra Miller to play the part that Jared ended up playing and I was nervous because I didn't really know who I was. I said please let slip use yard lead. I've worked on a picture with him before and I was a huge fan of his. And and I and the director said, not only why there was a lot of hemming and hawing, but in the end, I set up a zoom because Jared was touring. We couldn't do it meet face to face with Shama. So he came onto the zoom in full costume at the end. Shot and Mike Sharma. And at the end Shama is like, Yeah, fine. Okay. And he won the Oscar, which is, you know, incredible.

Alex Ferrari 35:33
Yeah. So the Matthew.

Cassian Elwes 35:35
Yeah, that movie was something that's very near and dear to me. And I, you know, I got to to work with Jim Seamus brand focus at that time. And, you know, it was it was a, a, who I'm a big admirer of, because, you know, produce some of the greatest films, independent films ever, in the prior 10 years. And he was running focus at that point, he got movie and, you know, it was, it was it worked. That's the beauty of that patient work.

Alex Ferrari 36:05
So, after doing so many projects, I mean, as a filmmaker, I think, no matter what you do, there's always that day on set, that the entire world is coming crashing down around you. And you feel like Oh, my God, I don't think we're gonna be able to make it through today. What was that day for you on any of your projects? And how did you overcome it?

Cassian Elwes 36:22
Every habit every day, every single moment? Of course, every day, every single day that I'm shooting, it's like, how are we going to make this day? How are we gonna make the state you know, we've got the entire movie in 16 days. Now that that was kind of a record for me. Insane, that means a shooting six pages a day. And, you know, was the only way that we can figure out how to actually get the movie made. With the money that we had, you know, each day is like a nightmare. And then you're worrying the whole time, it's anybody gonna get COVID It's gonna get shut down on a movie, two summers ago, with Aaron Eckhart for 18 months ago, called rumbles through the dark, turned out to be a fabulous movie with these two young directors, brothers who wrote it and directed it co directed it. But on the fourth day of shooting, this was at the height of COVID, they had 22 cases on the set, the movie got shut down. For two weeks, everybody's split. You know, it was quite hairy, trying to get everybody come back. You know, that took a lot of negotiation with all the various different parties, including the actors. When we didn't start shooting again, until about six weeks later, in the end, which was you know, nightmarish and movie turned out to be fantastic. The story behind the making of it was very difficult. So yeah, every single movie, there's some kind of story, everyone's got the war stories of what they went through making multiple war stories from all of them, but I I'm a sucker for film. So I keep doing, keep I keep this, I want to do it. And I kind of, you know, my family, my two daughters both want to be in the movie business. Now, the oldest one, and I just produced a movie together called Bella Thorne. This summer, these they tell people that I actually thrive on the disasters, that I look forward to the disastrous results, because that's where I really come into my own. And I don't know if that's necessarily true. But I am very, very good in those disastrous situations in terms of trying to stay calm, figure out what the what the what we should actually do. And since I'm extremely experienced, I've seen a lot of that, you know, think touch one, I've never actually killed anybody on a set. You know, that's the worst case scenario. But people have been injured. You know, it's the filmmaking can be dangerous sometimes. But it's what they recovered fine. You know, it's it's not easy making films, and it's not easy making films.

Alex Ferrari 38:59
But how do you deal with the stress, man, I mean, this, it's so stressful. You've made so many?

Cassian Elwes 39:04
Well, like I said, I, you know, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. In the early part of my career before I became an agent, I spent a lot of weeks. Sure I was making,

Alex Ferrari 39:13
I mean, it's 2022 you can say that,

Cassian Elwes 39:16
You know, I was get very, you know, get stoned whenever there was a disaster, which I realized later on probably wasn't a good idea, because it wasn't necessarily like, Oh, I got a great idea. Let's do this. You know, I'm like, No, I it is very, very stressful. Very stressful. As I've gotten older, I've realized that, that there is going to be enormous amounts of stress all the time. And, you know, the film I did with, with Bella Thorne that was mentioning that my daughter produced we were three weeks out I was prepping the movie with with my own money. And we still didn't have the male star for the film and the distribution company that was by the thumb said low I think we're out of my tears of people. put in this movie. So I went back to one of the ideas that they had had prior who said no to me, rank really big. And I called him up. And I said, and I know him really well. And I said, right, you have to do this for me, I'm gonna pay a lot of money for five days, I gotta come and do this. And I know you want to direct this other film, I'm aware of the horror picture that you're interested in directing, I will make that movie, you just got to come into this movie with me. And he came saying the film. So you know that that was a very stressful situation.

Alex Ferrari 40:28
Yeah, and it's, it's, they don't tell you that in film school. I mean, this the amount of stress that you do on one movie, but you are doing, you've met, you continuously made four or five, six,

Cassian Elwes 40:42
Between four and six a year, which I'm literally shooting a movie every two months, and then the stress levels are very high. And then

Alex Ferrari 40:50
I mean you got a system, you got a system, I'm assuming

Cassian Elwes 40:53
It's kind of you know, then you're, you know, while you're shooting the films, you're actually delivering the ones that you've already just made, right, polishing one's editing, the ones you just made, delivering the ones that you made, like six months before, you know, it's a constant stream. You know, I had one friend who said that it's like an assembly line for you. And, you know, that might be doing to that, too.

Alex Ferrari 41:12
Do you have a core group of collaborators that you've been using? Post houses, and yeah,

Cassian Elwes 41:19
I, you know, work with everybody. So I figured out which ones are the good guys, and the bad guys, you know, I, I have I do have a support system, they don't work for me, but they will work with me if I find the right things to work with them on. And so each film is like Mission Impossible. It's like picking the right people for each thing. You know, what, if you accept that if you choose to accept this mission, you have to come with me. And I have great libraries that I've worked with, I'm now working with the best line producer I've ever worked with Italian women. And I've never worked with somebody so good. And she is hilarious to me because she's a chain smoker. And I feel like I'm in an Italian 70s movie, when I'm around her all the time, like Fellini is gonna pop out. And he's like, oh, yeah, so I feel like I'm in the in a spaghetti western, you know, and which I love, you know, because making independent films is there's, there's a history to it, you know, there is a real history. And I was it makes me think about the history of what we're doing. You know, there were some incredible filmmakers that have been behind me, and there'll be some incredible filmmakers in front of me. You know, I want to make films, people say, Well, what do you want to do? And it's hard to say I want to do this kind of movie, I want to do something that I haven't done before. I want to do something that I feel like, will actually outlive me later, you know, like, Butler and Dallas will be films that will be talked about a long time after I'm gone. And that makes me excited, because that means that somehow that did something that actually become more became part of the Zeitgeist as opposed to just being another title. You can switch on your pay per view, which I'm sure you do, and a lot of people do. And you scroll down, the films are available, the new titles are at this week and click on the one that you want to see, you know, you want to you don't want to just be part of the cannon fodder. You want to be the one that people like, Man, I'd like to watch that movie again. You know, 10 years later, or five years later, and those are the films you want to be making. You know, you don't do it every time. It's very rare that you do do it. I mean, that year that you're talking about, was incredible. Because they worked on cat when Kevin Costner and worked on their body sights, you know, it was like, it was like the Year of Living Dangerously for me. I literally kept throwing sevens. It was incredible. It was, you know, fabulous. Fabulous. Yeah, they don't come along that often. But when they do, you got to enjoy the ride. And, you know, my band was there kind of hear from you, too. When we made Medan, you know, got nominated for three Academy Awards. Netflix bought, it was one of the first acquisitions. Awards were the pitcher for them. They were willing to spend a lot of money on it, because they never heard of them that they wanted to move to the Oscars before they treated us like I've never been treated in my entire life. I mean, that by limos every night taken to the screening and first class flights to London and like, it was it was fabulous. Because it's an independent filmmaker, I go coach, you know.

Alex Ferrari 44:08
We give me to tell me that independent filmmakers aren't just loaded with cash all the time?

Cassian Elwes 44:12
No, you kidding? Listen, if I really want to make some real money, I'd be doing something else.

Alex Ferrari 44:17
Do you know what I always tell people like how was that the old joke? How do you become a millionaire in the film business? Start with a billion.

Cassian Elwes 44:27
That's that that's not you don't go into it for the money. You go for the love. And you hope that the money will come along during the way during now when you're prepared.

Alex Ferrari 44:38
So another question. I'd love to hear your perspective on. What do you look for in a film director? When you're packaging a project? What are the elements?

Cassian Elwes 44:46
Okay, well, first of all, you got to have seen that films that they've already made. You got to understand what it is that they're there, their vision, you know, what, what are they capable of? And then you got to listen very closely. I listen. Really closely when they come to tell me what they're gonna do, because, you know, I can tell in five minutes, they have no idea what they're doing, I can tell them five minutes, if they're going to make something great. If I liked the material, like the way they're talking about it, and I like the way that they're, you know, they're thinking about it and the actors that they kind of want to work with. And, you know, the way that they want to make it where they want to shoot, and all of those things, those are all kind of secondary on some level, it's, it's got to be about understanding their passion, and understanding their ability to deliver what they're saying that they're going to deliver it by watching what they've done already. So I think that's, that's what I'm looking for in directors all the time. It's not necessarily that, of course, there are directors that that I hear about, or like to work with multiple films, when they hear something negative, something because I don't really care about any of that stuff. My my own experiences with people are totally different from other people's experiences with them, I run a very different kind of ship from a lot of other producers. And I think that's why some of these filmmakers gravitate towards me that as I've gotten older, I tend to find that there's a lot of young directors coming back, because, you know, they, they're the ones that want to work with me, you know, the guys that are big star directors have a career, they don't, you know, they can pick up the phone and say, I'm gonna make this and Quentin Tarantino, they don't need me to make pictures with that producer movie. So the film directors that I mainly have been working with over the last few years are the ones that are coming up that really need me, or the older ones who can, who are struggling, and in need some energy behind them to figure out how to change their careers and start over. So that tends to be the types of directors and I work with. As I said, I work with any level of director, I just got to make sure that I understand what it is that they're going to do and that we're on the same page.

Alex Ferrari 46:49
Now, if you could go back to your younger self, at the beginning of this journey as a film producer,

Cassian Elwes 46:57
By the way, this is a good one I can feel.

Alex Ferrari 46:59
What what would you what's the one thing you would say, hey, you know, What, did you want to go for a hell of a ride, but this just watch out for this one thing?

Cassian Elwes 47:11
Really good question.

Alex Ferrari 47:12
Thank you.

Cassian Elwes 47:13
Not sure I, you know, not sure what the answer is to that. Because, you know, I don't think that I would want to alter the way that I approached any of the films that I worked on, by having some hindsight to what I what I learned later on, I think that each firm, this might sound like a pat answer, but it's really not. Each film, I learned something new about myself, I learned something about my own abilities. I learned something about my persistence, I learned something about my, my, my, my tastes level. Each firm was really something that pushed me into thinking a different way. And I you know, so I don't think I would have necessarily want to go back and say, Hey, watch after this. Don't do that. You know, I, I think that, um, you know, maybe I maybe, you know, I people say, Well, you know, you made psycho cop and invisible maniac and some of these other small pitches when you were starting at, I don't regret them, you know, honestly, kind of embarrassing on my, on my resume, but I don't regret them at all. Because, you know, what, I learned how to make films that way, then was incredible learning curve, you know, make a film for $300,000 is insane, actually. But I learned how to do it. And it taught me much. And it was such a great learning curve for me later, when I became an agent to be able to talk to filmmakers about how to make their films as opposed to just being an agent saying, Okay, here's the script, here's the budget, or whatever, try to set it up. As you get into it. You know, one of the filmmakers that I got to work with quite a bit at William Morris was Gus Van Sant. And he taught me how to talk to directors, talk to artists. You know, I talked to a lot of directors, I mean, a lot of movies, but he actually taught me how to how to deal with an artist, which was incredible. And one of the greatest going back to school ever, and I was being paid to do it, which was incredible. But we worked on worked on elephant which won the Palme d'Or. Last days we worked on Paradise Park worked on Jerry, which I love, people think I'm insane, but I love that movie. It's it's like a zen experience. You know, melt he's, he's a brilliant dude. And one of the best directors out there. And I got to spend five movies worth with him. Which was a longer period of time obviously than we buy movies of baby. And I really learned how to how to talk to him and learn how to gain his confidence and, and be able to to understand where his mind was coming from. valuable lesson for me later on with other directors. Valuable

Alex Ferrari 49:53
No, no, I'm going to ask you a few questions ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Cassian Elwes 50:01
Don't give up, you know, look, if you really want to do it don't give up. I mean, that's, that's the, that's the best advice I can give you, you know, it seems daunting, it's a lot of these things seem insurmountable and go, I got a script I really want to make, but nobody wants to deal with me. I mean, any movie can be made for any amount of money, you know, it's a question of how much you're going to compromise on it. You know, you can make films for $50,000. I mean, tangerine is incredible movie that was made for $25,000, you know, on an iPad, you can, you know, that guy Schonbek is brilliant. And, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to be limit, the way you think if you really are an artist, you can do anything. And you can create anything as a piece of art, you know, whether people appreciate the movie on the other end, you know, that's, that's, that remains to be seen. But you shouldn't be limited by the, somebody told me you have to get $3 million to make this film, to get the star to be in it today, you know, that that should be the all those filmmakers that we all love and admire, they all started somewhere, they all had to break into the business, somehow or other, they all wrote a script, mainly wrote scripts, or developed scripts that they attach themselves to, that somehow or other that some producer somewhere introduced him some other producer somehow or other got the money to make those vows, you know, you know, they can't give up, if you've got something great, it's probably going to happen. And, and so I wouldn't, I wouldn't be, you know, you can't give up your day job, obviously. But you got to keep your eye on the prize, which is get my movie made, even if you make a little short, and that ends up playing in a film festival somewhere that you made for $5,000 that might find you an agent that might get so get you get people interested in your work. I mean, i i There are great agents and sign directors that I mean that I know they'd sign off from shorts, and, and turned out to have incredible careers. So you know, there's so many routes and you can't be limited by your, your fear of that you gotta be you gotta be very aggressive about yourself in front of figure out how you're going to make it and, and that means just making stuff. Because you know, you're not really a filmmaker, unless you're making films, and you've got to get out there and make stuff and show people what you can do, because one thing will lead to another and promising.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Cassian Elwes 52:24
I don't know, I'm constantly still learning. So I don't know if I've learned any particular lessons other than I guess that? That's a good question, too. I don't know where you come up with these things.

Alex Ferrari 52:35
I've been doing this for a few years, brother.

Cassian Elwes 52:39
One of the things that I that I'm constantly surprises me, honestly, is that the lack of loyalty in our business, you know, and that's, that's the sad part of it, you know, they're people that I've helped get their careers going, who like, Cassie, you know, but I, you know, it's, it's, it's a long business, and sometimes I'd get back with them, you know, when they need me again. But I, you know, that was that was that was a good lesson early in my career. Some of the people I was working with and ended up having like, huge careers outside of me, you know, ratty, Harrington, did Jack's back with got to meet Roadhouse. John McTernan, who I didn't know events with his first pitch of these were both of those movies, ended up going straight from my film to predator and then to die hard. And it was like Cassie knew that they did come back into my life later, because I was in a position what could actually help them? But, but you know, that that's the thing as I did think you can sit there and go, Well, if I discover all these people, they're all gonna stick with me, they're probably not you know, that everyone, everyone's some type of stepping stone to each other. You know that that was a hard lesson that I've learned, but I accept it now that that's part of the game and that, that not I'm not sitting there going. Why don't they come back? Make the next movie with me? You know, I gotta get on to the next one.

Alex Ferrari 54:02
What did you learn from your biggest failure?

Cassian Elwes 54:07
To Dust yourself off? You know, I mean, that's, that that is the real thing. You know, I funnily enough, we had such high expectations for the chase, you know, we, we sold that pitcher to 20th century box. I remember. Charlie Sheen was a huge star at that time, Chris theta, Kristy Swanson, who I knew because my brother dated her, Carrie. And we thought that issue was going to be hit and and then we went, you know, the head of the studio, or the head of distribution at the studio. Lovely man invited us over to, to sit there on Friday night and listen to the first returns coming in from all the different offices around the country. And it wasn't working. And he he told us he knew it wasn't going to, but he said I wanted to be here with you guys. You know that my other young partner We were both in our late 20s, at that point was a big deal for us because we finally made a studio level film. And he said, I wanted to be here with you. And I wanted to tell you that, you know, it's just about getting up to the bat, you got to keep swinging, because one day, you're going to just hit it out of the park. And I'm tearing up thinking about it now. Because he, you know, he really, really, really, really helped me at that moment, because it could have been just down in the dumps for months afterwards. And I wasn't, I was like, he's right, I'm gonna get back up.

Alex Ferrari 55:32
He was me. He was a human being, he was a human being, which is not what you don't get often in this business.

Cassian Elwes 55:39
And, you know, he that was, that was good, like, less than two feet in he was, you know, I'm trying to remember his name. I'm totally blanking. This is what happens when you get older. But he was he was a lovely man, and very good at his job. And he, you know, he told us, took us down the corridor and goes, boys. Not all movies work out, most of them don't. But you just got to keep swinging. And you know, what's crazy about it is that movie has continued to have a big life. And whenever I mentioned people like a lot that the chase, I remember the day, of course, you know, I had a crazy idea on that picture, which is the, you know, the Red Hot Chili, chili peppers were huge at that point. And as they finally get the Red Hot Chili Peppers, you know, we'd have like crazy out of body experiences in our chili peppers. And I called their managers and we weren't Anthony and flew to be in our movie. And they're like, Sure, great. What is it that we tell them? And they're like, great, they're in, they're coming over. And they came and they were on the set? I got to meet these guys. It was fantastic. You know, you're only limited by your dreams.

Alex Ferrari 56:39
And last question, three of your favorite films of all time.

Cassian Elwes 56:43
Okay, well, the they're they're really, you know, there's a number of films that I have, obviously, my favorite movie of all time is 2001 A Space Odyssey because, you know, Kubrick was a friend of my families. When I was a kid, we went to the zoo shooting that picture.

Alex Ferrari 57:00
No! you were on the set of 2001?

Cassian Elwes 57:05
Yes.

Alex Ferrari 57:06
Oh my, you mean, you saw the wheel and the whole

Cassian Elwes 57:08
Oh, yeah, we saw the whole thing. Hollywood shooting it. They were, you know, the camera was on, it was on a kind of a man with gimbal spin around and made it feel like that they were inside. And that was sad. Kubrick was a genius. absolute genius. And we were too young to appreciate it, actually. And then when I saw the film, I didn't understand it at all. But now, as an adult much later on, I was like, That is a total work of genius. And the man was an absolute genius. So when you think about it, like when the woman in the spaceship comes in, and whatever the kind of pan app, which doesn't exist that thing and but he's on it, he's on the, the spaceship that's taking him to the middle planet before they go on to whether they've discovered the the talking, right? The she comes in, and then she she walks in a circle. And then she comes back that comes into like the pod where they're they're sitting in there and kind of airplane seats, you know, but it's really on a spaceship. And his pan is like, do you remember this is floating off the course and puts it back into his pocket? Right? All done on wires. But you know, all the all the things that were in that dump, I don't think you can look at it and go, that's any worse than a lot of the big visual effects films. And much later on, you know, like the one with George was the name that was stuck in space and George Clooney was in it. Yeah, there you can't say that the visual effects of gravity were like 1000 times better than 2001 because they're not he he came up with all those credible imagery that Doug Trumbull and, and then you know, the production design light, and they were they would throw the paint into a huge pool with other types of paint and it would just explode like that. And then that's what it would look like on screen. You know, he was so ahead of his time. And that film is an absolute work of genius. Later on in the early 70s. I was at the Cannes Film Festival because as I said, my staff on the producer, we would go to the Cannes Film Festival every year. He says, Hey, I got I got a couple of tickets to this movie. I heard it's a total piece of shit. I don't want to see it. Why don't you go ticket? You go see the film. And I was like, what is it? You said? It's called Apocalypse Now. Can I have this awful. And so I went to see it. I literally sat there with my mouth hanging open for two hours. It's one of the greatest films ever made in greatest war pitches ever made. And I literally came out of that movie theater guy. Holy shit. That is one of the greatest films I've ever seen. And it still is to this day, I watched that film ever or never. I mean, I've seen the elongated version. When it gets to the French chateau along the river. It's not as good. The final version of his original version is the best version of that movie. And it's incredible. And you know, I know what I know because I'm such a movie buff about viruses how that picture was made. We you know, I I, you know, it was it was insane what they went through, they went there for three months to make this movie, they ended up staying there for 16 months, the making of that film. Oh, I started to a bar to darkness. Yeah. My my friend George Hickenlooper, who sadly died later on. But we worked on a number of films together when I was an agent, and I loved him.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:21
But that documentary is a must

Cassian Elwes 1:00:23
Greatest single greatest line of any movie of any film documentary feature, whatever ever, in any movie whatsoever, which is then when he finds that he's in a tent in the middle of absolutely jungle where there's no no connection to the outside world whatsoever, etc. He's got a satellite phone machine has had a major heart attack, and has been helicoptered out of the out of the camp. And nobody knows if he's alive or dead. He's, he's on his way. And he had a major heart attack, you know, the, because Amelia and Charlie are good friends of mine. And they were there as kids you know, watching their dad making their movie. They it was very touch and go they didn't know if he was going to survive. And you know, Joe, their uncle. Their the uncle came in, and they shot over his shoulder because he had the same kind of body type as, as Marty. So they use Joe to do a lot of this, you know, over the shoulders and do some scenes just keep shooting while they were waiting to see if Marty was going to recover. But as I said in the documentary, he's on a satellite phone to his office in California. And he says to them, and motherfuckers he's not fucking dead until I say he's dead. That's the greatest line I've ever heard of anybody ever say that's so brilliant. Oh, my God. That's Francis. Francis that I love that line. And he's like, I don't see it. I mean, that was not a fun experience.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:52
That was that. And going back to that 2001 gag with a pen. From what I remember, you know, studying that film, he did that on tape. It was clear tape that he they stuck the pen on a piece of tape, and you couldn't see it in the film. And she just plucked it right off. And did that. To think that way? Is, is brilliant. So that's to Apocalypse Now. 2001? What's the last one?

Cassian Elwes 1:02:18
There's so many other films that I just look back at and go. I love that picture. I love that picture. You know, the I can't say those are the two main ones for me. You know, they, they they're so different from each other. But they really kind of resonated with me in a very special way. That's different. You know, there's a ton of other movies. I love Eastwood pictures. I love the Westerns. I love the spaghetti westerns. I like the you know, I love the love of those movies from the 70s Taxi driver, you know. And then later on as Spielberg pitches, the close encounters, whatever, but I met films that are that really sit with me as an adult later on. I mean, those are really good movies. They're just solid, solid, good, original pictures.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:01
Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're in the middle of 5000 movies, producing them right now. So I do appreciate you taking the time to share your stories. But thank you, my friend and continue fighting the good fight and getting us these great movies. And keep keep keep swinging the bat. Brother, I appreciate you.

Cassian Elwes 1:03:18
You keep swinging to man. It's the as I say, as I'm looking at this thing behind you. It is hustling you know you are a hustler on some level of your app raising money. You know, that's what hustlers do. They try to raise money now. It comes up with a negative connotation because people go you know, if you're hustling, that means you're trying to get money out to somebody and you know, it's not they're not going to get their money back. That's not true. I think every time I go out to try to raise money, my assumption is that it's a risk. But if I play if I do it, right, and if I make the right movie at the right budget level, I am going to get these people their money back. So my my mindset is different. I'm constantly thinking, How do I get money back to them?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:00
You keep doing your thing, my friend, I appreciate you.

Cassian Elwes 1:04:03
Thank you!

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BPS 414: Billie Eilish and Truth to Filmmaking with RJ Cutler

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Alex Ferrari 2:26
Today on the show, we have filmmaker RJ Cutler. And RJ is not only a narrative filmmaker, but he's also a very, very accomplished documentary and nonfiction director as well. He has worked on films like The Oscar nominated the War Room, a perfect candidate, the September issue the world according to Dick Cheney, if I stay Belushi and the brand new film, Billy Eilish, the world's a little blurry for Apple TV, and he's also one of the CO creators of the hit television series, Nashville, RJ and I had a fantastic conversation. It truly is a masterclass in storytelling. I love the way RJ tells his stories in documentary as well as narrative film. And his new documentary Billy is the world's a little blurry, his fan tastic. I knew very little about Billy Eilish, before I saw this, my, of course, my daughters knew a lot about them a lot about her, but I did not. And I was fascinated by this artist, his journey, and RJ was able to capture that in this documentary. So we're going to talk a bunch about that, as well as his process, and all the other films that he's worked on in his career. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with RJ Cutler. I'd like to welcome to the show. RJ Cutler, how're you doing RJ?

RJ Cutler 3:52
All right. Thank you very much. Always good.

Alex Ferrari 3:54
Very cool. I love your mic. It's much more impressive than mine. So I I appreciate the audio.

RJ Cutler 4:01
You know, mic envy is a easily addressed issue.

Alex Ferrari 4:07
I won't feel too bad about it.

RJ Cutler 4:10
Amazon can, can take care that

Alex Ferrari 4:12
That's very true.

RJ Cutler 4:13
Two clicks

Alex Ferrari 4:14
Two clicks and it's done. Exactly. So I wanted to ask you, let's let's just jump into it. How did you get started in the business?

RJ Cutler 4:24
Hmm, I mean, it depends on how thorough and answer you want. But you know, I started directing plays I think I was in first grade and I was I was forcing my my classmates to to adaptations of Charlie Brown Books on the on the school, the baseball field outside of my elementary school, and then we'd invite the whole school to come join in and, you know, I was always I always was a was somehow I was just a kid who liked to put on plays and I also loved journalism and I pursued a career had a career really as a as a young theatre director. It's what I studied at school and and and for eight nine years in New York I directed I you know, I was I was James lupines assistant director on the original production of into the woods I did a the original productions of Secret Garden two productions before it went to Broadway and ran for several seasons I you know, I had I had this wonderful life in the, in the theater, but I always kind of, in the back of my mind somehow thought that I would combine that passion with my equal passion in, in in journalism, or, you know, curiosity about world events, which was, which is just something I always add. And then in the summer of 1992, I had this idea to make a documentary about Bill Clinton's presidential campaign which was which was heading towards the election and and I partnered with a dear friend of mine Wendy injure and we pursued that idea of found our ways to our way to the the brownstone of Da Pennebaker and Chris Hedges and Fraser Pennebaker, the legendary document tree filmmakers and and pitch them this idea and you know, as I say, they're long stories and short stories but the short story is I produced the war room that was my first film and it was not only a fantastic experience and a great success you know, we were nominated for an Oscar and had an incredible time and witnessed the campaign from within it and and introduce the world to James Carville and George Stephanopoulos. But i i along the way, receive this incredible education and documentary filmmaking and cinema, Verity filmmaking from the at the feet of the Masters, you know, da Pennebaker and Chris editors who were so incredibly supportive of me and, and generous with their time. And I, you know, I literally would sit next to Chris as she was editing on the Steam back and ask her questions. And, and Penny, who was a great teacher and philosopher, verite a, was always sharing lessons. And and that's how I got started, you know, since then I've been, you know, that's 1992. So we're nearing 30 years of doing this. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
So you've done a couple things since then. Without question. Now, the War Room specifically, there is a visceral energy in that film. I mean, you can sense it coming off. I mean, that must have been insane. Just being in that room that energy. I mean, I mean, I was, I mean, it's, it's been 30 years. So I was a young, I was a younger man, back then, to say the least. But I remember the excitement around Bill Clinton. And around was crazy. Amy, there's this thing,

RJ Cutler 8:07
That we're rock stars, he and Al Gore, they were young man, they were they 40 If they were they were barely 40. And, and, and they had these young wives and all these young people around them and Pennebaker, who had done a great deal of filming with Bobby and Jack Kennedy in their prime in their, you know, in their, during their rise to power and and until both of their deaths. He said that it hadn't been since then, that he he had experienced anything like this he recognized immediately in the Clinton campaign that kind of youthful energy and vigor and vitality and passion and certainty that that that this group could change the world and and you felt it You sure did feel it, man. It was you really you really felt it, you know, and when you when you when you talk about that it's something that the film was able to capture so beautifully so beautifully.

Alex Ferrari 9:07
Yeah. And and Carvel and Carvel? I mean, he's, I mean, you couldn't see Central Casting couldn't have sent him. I mean,

RJ Cutler 9:14
They couldn't have and, and they did. And you know, we had to wreck it. You know, Penny, first thing, Penny said, James. I remember after the first day or two of filming, he were like, well, maybe we make a film about him. And he was like, I don't know. He's kind of like the drunken uncle that won't leave the party. But then then we got the film processed, and we put it up. And I remember clear as day Penny watching it and saying that guy's a movie star. That's a move we can make a movie about him. And and he was right. And he was right. Because we thought, you know, I didn't know what I believe. No, I didn't I didn't know what I was doing. And I was like, well, we'll follow these two guys because the first time I mentioned depending Chris, that you know that I was like, I got access. I did. I pulled it off, I got to see him were in the campaign. And they said, well, when do we start shooting with Governor Clinton? I was like, Whoa, not Governor Clinton, but the guys who are running the campaign are the guys who are running the campaigns. What are we gonna do with them? I was like, I maybe, you know, we'll we'll Bill take us to Bill Clinton. And when they leave, we'll stay. And I didn't quite know that that's not the way it works. In the whole film. We thought we were making a film about Bill Clinton and one day would you like that? And it just, I remember being disappointed. I remember, on election night, we we never quite got to be with Clinton. We filmed his speech to the world. And we were with James and George and and he hugged them and we filmed that. But then the camera ran out of film. And we couldn't go and we were we couldn't. We we I remember sitting in a cloak room in the governor's mansion, waiting to get access to finally be with Clinton on election night, and just not getting it and into the cloakroom came outdoors, daughters, and they were waiting, and we were all just kind of waiting, you know, and they got brought into the party, of course, but, but we didn't, but it you know, that was that was an as everything was on that film, that was a great lesson in the fact that, you know, you don't always know what you have until you look at what you have. And when we looked at what we have, when we looked at what we had we you know, especially in the hands of his brilliant editors, as Manny and Chris, who could bring it to life and bring the humor to life and bring the characters to life. I mean, man, they used every frame, we shot on that film every frame, but they they made a masterful film

Alex Ferrari 11:51
It is absolutely a masterful film. Now as a documentarian, how do you bring out the truth of your subject, the subject that you shouldn't? Because I mean, human beings generally have a veneer, a wall, sometimes sometimes a wall with arm guns aimed to protect. Sure. So as a documentarian, sometimes they'll agree to do a piece. But that doesn't mean that they're allowing you in yet. So how do you kind of bring the truth out of a subject?

RJ Cutler 12:19
I mean, what a what a great question. And really, to be honest, the only question there is about the work that we do. And the answer is you earn their trust, you earn their trust, and you earn their trust by, you know, being trustworthy. You know, there's a, there's a common misnomer, which is that we're flies on the wall. And that's our goal is to be a fly on the wall and to vanish into the woodwork, that's another one, and to disappear. So you don't even know were there. None of those things are our actual objective. I can't be a fly on the wall. I mean, I'm six one, I got some, I got some, some presents to me, my, my camera person has a camera with them. My sound person has a boom, where people were people in a room, there are only few of us, and we're not hanging lights, and we're good to get out of your way. But we're human beings. And the key is for us as human beings to have a relationship with you as a human being you the subject. And if we have a relationship with you, were in yours, comfortable being yourself with us, as you are with anybody with whom you trust and are fully comfortable being yourself, then we can capture that on film. And that's all we aim for. We want to earn your trust, you know, on Monday, and if we do, we know that we still have to earn it on Tuesday, and we still have to earn it on Wednesday. And as I say, the way to earn people's trust is to be trustworthy, the way you earn their trust in any relationship, you have to be who you say you are, you have to, you can't say hey, there are only three of us and we never use lights or heavy equipment or any cables. And you and I always like to leave 10 minutes before you ask me to leave and, and that's um, that's my approach and trust, you know, you'll see you'll trust us and we'll we'll that's that. That's how we'll make it. You can't say that and then show up with 30 people likes cables, trucks, and refuse to leave until you get it. You know, you can't you gotta be who you say you are. And you know, what we who we say we are people who are there to observe, we just want to see life. We want to see how it happens. How if you're Billy Eilish, how you how you're handling all the things that are going on and how you're living your life and how you're writing your album with your brother and what that's all about, and simply there to see that we I don't want anything else. You know, people ask me, What would would the film have not worked? If she didn't win the Grammys? I don't care if she wins the Grammys. I don't care if she sells a single album. I'm there to tell the story of a remarkable young artist coming of age and a remarkable young woman coming of age and that story however that story unfolds is the story I want to tell. I don't want anything else, I just want to see clearly. And then I want to be able to tell the story truthfully, as you said

Alex Ferrari 15:11
Now in in this and what's remarkable about your career is the subject matters that you've taken on. And, you know, some have obviously been of great, you know, legendary people like Jim Belushi, who have passed. But a lot of John, John John sorry, John. Sorry, Jim. Jim. Jim, still, Jim is still with us.

RJ Cutler 15:31
Harvesting the cannabis. On behalf of us all.

Alex Ferrari 15:34
Oh, yes, yes. Oh, no, no. So that mean, so you do subject matters, like that's a different kind of documentary and work as opposed to, you know, Dick Cheney, or the head of Vogue, or Billy, these are, these are very big presence. You know, these are big people present in very heavy presence, their shadows, especially like Dick Cheney, and, and I forgot her name, the head of Anna Wintour. And yes, having you know, they the shadow that walks in with them on the tour is massive, the trust that they must have to open themselves up because I've seen those films, and they're just, I mean, they open themselves up. And you're right, there needs to be a trust. And obviously, your track record does open some doors as well. But at a certain point, I don't care if you want an Oscar, you didn't want an Oscar, whoever you've worked with, at a certain point is just you and me. I'm here, it's a camera, I don't care who you are, what you are, but I have to trust you. And that's the human aspect of it, regardless of how do you cut through all the celebrity and all of the other stuff that is thrown upon these the souls if you will, and just get to them?

RJ Cutler 16:45
I mean, it's a, there are a number of ways of answering that. One is that what what connects the subject to the process is their desire to have their story told, and that transcends that's a very say it's one we're sitting there, it's two human beings. Well, one of the most human beings wants to have their story told, and the other human being wants to tell their story. So we're actually very much in harmony. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm there. I'm there with you, man. I get it. I know, I don't know why you want to have your story told? I don't mean to say I don't think you should, I mean, to say, I don't ask why. That's, that's on you. And, and I, I trust you that you want to have your story told it's a very human desire, and I'm connecting with you on that level. And, and, you know, to be honest, that's really fundamentally it. It's, it's, that's what, that's what draws me to you. And, and then, you know, there are other things that I, you know, I'm an empathic person, I'm a curious person. I, you know, I, I'm present. I'm well trained by you know, by da Pennebaker, grid sagittis, and all my experiences, I'm trustworthy, because I know that, you know, I want it these days, I can say to somebody, you know, feel free to call anyone I've worked with and you'll, you'll see, but, you know, fortunately, the work, you know, is there and, and stands for itself. But that's really what connects us. And that, you know, I know that we're all you know, we're all our parents, children. We're all the little boys and girls that we were one day long ago. I know that it hasn't been all that long since then, no matter how old we are. And I know that one day is, you know, that we're all dust in the wind. And I'm, you know, so celebrity, doesn't it? I honestly, you know, I've made plenty of projects that aren't about celebrities. I mean, I made films about high school kids and college kids and, and young physicians and young men and women in the military and, and those projects are every bit as rich as the celebrity driven projects. But it's not celebrity that is as interesting even though it of course, has been a subject. It's a subject in the in the Billy film. It's a subject in the Baluchi film there's no question but what what what drives my curiosity are people who are you know, who are great at what they do and who care a tremendous amount about it and are doing it as well as they possibly can under high stakes circumstances. I'm you know, I've as I mentioned, I come from the theater I want to put on a good show, and I want to spend a great yarn and I want you to laugh and cry and stomp your feet and share when it's over I you know and leave the theater, grateful that you devoted you know that you you gave up your time to be there. And I want to have earned that gratitude. You know, I want to have spent your time well You're putting your trust in me too. So. So those, those are my goals.

Alex Ferrari 20:06
Now, with those first few projects, like the War Room and the projects that a few projects after that, what were the biggest lessons you learned? Because you were brand new to this medium? You know, what was the biggest lesson you took away from, let's say, the War Room? Because that was such a, I mean, you were surrounded by such amazing, you know, collaborators, what was that one lesson, you're like, Oh, this is the thing I'm taking away one of the big things I'm taking away from this process,

RJ Cutler 20:29
It really is that you have to trust in the process, that the principles reveal themselves, or that they work out. And that the things the characters reveal themselves. The, if you stick very early on, I mean, the different things Penny said to me that I think about every day, you know, one of the very first things he said to me was, you know, if you want to do this kind of work, you better have a bank robbers mentality, travel light and be ready to make a break for it at any moment. And, you know, I didn't know what he meant, but I know now. And, and that, that's you gotta you know, you got to be light on your feet, you got to be, you got to be able to, to adjust. It's you got to you got to make a if necessary, you got to make a break for you know, you gotta but but he also said, you know, the first thing he does when he used to do when he walked into a room into a shooting environment, was find a table to sit down next to and take his camera apart and clean it. Because his he wanted the people who he was filming to know that he was a guy with a job too. He's no different than them. He doesn't he's not, he's not a body with a camera on its head. You know, he's a human being who's there to connect with you on a human level. There's so many of those lessons. One of the one of the kind of lessons that I share with others that to me is the is the, in a way, the kind of Earth lesson of how to approach this kind of filmmaking came to me from from Wayne Gretzky, the great hockey player who never gave, never gave interviews and and but one day, I remember watching an interview with him between periods, somehow they got a hold of him in the and the announcer The interviewer said, Well, tell us great one, what how do you what is your secret? How do you do it? Tell us please tell us. And and and Gretzky said, Well, it's quite simple. I just followed the puck. And I remember thinking, Oh, my God, everybody else on the hockey rink is trying to get the puck to do what they want it to do. But there's Gretzky somehow communing with the puck and letting it lead him. Well, that sounds odd. But it's the key was the key to his success. And I think it's the key to, to the success that I have in doing this in that in that I'm following life. I'm not asking life to do something. I'm not trying to force it. I'm not trying to force the puck into the net. I'm just following the puck man, because it's on a beautiful journey. And if it ends up in that goal, even even, you know so much the better.

Alex Ferrari 23:13
Oh, that's yeah, that's one of the most amazing quotes in sports history. But I think is this tree general. I think it was like, follow, he follows the puck, and he also likes to be where the puck is going to be. And I think I just

RJ Cutler 23:25
That's right. All of those things. Yeah, all of those things. You know, Penny, another thing I wish, you know, we could talk for an hour just me remembering different things kind of Baker said to me at different times. But one of the things he said was that directing is what happens to you don't direct while you're in the field, you're not telling I'm not saying put it over there, put the camera over there for him. And I'm doing that's not directing. Directing, he said is what happens in the bar at the end of the day. And what he meant by that was that after the shoot you you sit around and you and you and you say to each other, what did you see? What did you hear? What was your experience of the day? What moved you What questions did you have, and as long as everybody is communicating about those things, you're ready for the next day, and you move along? Another thing, Penny said I remember wrapping the War Room. And, and I had I had been out at some event and I had I had met a Riley, Pat Riley that who at the time was the Knicks coach, and and I he had seen the War Room. He Yeah, it was out the film was out. So we were in our kind of like, you know, we were we were going to parties. And you know, people knew that I produced the film and someone introduced me to Pat Riley. And we had this great chat. And I said you know we should make a film about you. And it's like, oh, you know, he was he was not uninterested. And that was enough for me and the next day I saw a penny and I said to him what I think I think I found our next film I'll produce and you guys will direct and will tell the story Pat Riley, the New York, the greatest one of the greatest coaches to ever be in all of sports, and he's right here in town down the road at Madison Square Garden. And Penny said, I thought you wanted to be a director. And I was like I do. But look, another project fell into our lap and I love producing and this has been great. And you guys are there. He's like, no, no, you want to be a director, you find a film to direct because you're not a director until you wake up in the middle of the night screaming. And you don't you don't wake up in the middle of the night screaming when you're producing a film only when you're directing it. And then I was like, wow, I was, you know, it was and it was the it was generous, truthful. And a month or so later, I was at my college reunion. And I ran into my old friend, David Van Taylor, who's one of the brilliant documentarian. And he and I started kibitzing about, you know, different stories that people would tell. And he said to me, you know, if you really want to tell a story about America and American politics, Oliver North is going to run our brand contra Ali is going to run for Senate. And we should tell that story. And I said I'll do it if you'll do it. And off we went. And we directed a film together. And and I love that film. It's called a perfect candidate. It's really I'm so proud of it. It's it's if the War Room is a celebration of the kind of joy of American politics that the perfect candidate is its dark underbelly just filthy nasty, just been like I can't believe it. And we got it. We were there. We were inside it. And man did I wake up screaming in the middle of the night, like, more times than I wish to remember. But I learned I learned what directing was what directing one of these films was and you know, you're dealing with powerful stuff, it's, you're harnessing the, you know, you're in that you're, you're you're you're being given an opportunity by the gods to harvest that power and tell the stories of human life and it's, it's it's intense stuff. So you know, now Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night I don't have to scream because I've I've been through it before but but Penny was right. You're you haven't directed one of these films until you've until you've woken up in the middle of the night screaming

Alex Ferrari 27:28
And now you wake up in a cold sweat. You don't scream but there's there might be a cold sweat.

RJ Cutler 27:32
Fortunately, my wife here, isn't it my wife isn't here to to refute your observation. Let's let it stand.

Alex Ferrari 27:40
It Fair enough. Now, you did this a great documentary on. I mean, I'm one of my favorite comedians of all time, John Belushi. And, I mean, his story's remarkable when you go down the rabbit hole of John Belushi. I mean, what was that? Like? Because, I mean, obviously, he's not around to interview. So you had to do this from perspectives of everyone who was close to them. What was it like going down that rabbit hole? Because it was I'm assuming somewhat scary and, and hilarious and everything?

RJ Cutler 28:11
Yeah, it you know, it was a it was actually a big riddle. You're, again, you're asking the exact right question, because, you know, how do you tell the story John Belushi you know, dies of an overdose the early 1980s It's, I'm making this film in 2016 1718, whatever, I've lost track of time. And then post COVID Did who knows what but right in the late 20 teens, that's 30 years later, I'm making this I'm making this this film and and how do you capture it? How do you capture the rawness? How do you capture and my objective with this film is to tell the story of not of what it was like for John Belushi to die, which is one of the most oft told stories in in entertainment history. But the story of what it was like for John Belushi to live and that's a very that's a rarely told story and a story that Judy Belushi and John's family had not granted anybody the opportunity to do since they felt so burned by Bob Woodward when he wrote wired, so they just shut it down. Well, Sean battsek My dear friend and producing partner on the Belushi film and had had one Judy over and had persuaded her in part because he is such a persuasive charming man in part because he spent a decade doing it in part because he brought me in to direct it and in part because Judy saw our film Listen to me Marlon, which, which John and I produced and, and shared it with her. And so she was ready to give us the opportunity to tell the story, but we still had the I had the huge Riddle of how are we going to bring to the audience what it was like for jumble as she delivered all these decades later.

Alex Ferrari 30:08
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

RJ Cutler 30:18
And as I started to do kind of preparatory interviews, talk to people on the phone, have lunch with people who knew John, those kinds of things. I was like, huh, everyone's telling everyone's either talking about themselves as people do. Or they're telling that they're telling the story that they tell about John when they tell stories about John. So they've told this story so many times, and it things felt lost in the foggy haze of memory. They weren't present. They weren't raw, they weren't edgy. And again, if you're going to make a movie about John Belushi, you need raw present edge you need, you need to capture the man and the man was an exposed wire. Well, these conversations I was having was not we're not exposed wire. And, and I was concerned. And fortunately, when I went to Martha's Vineyard and spent time with my team digging through the archive there, we discovered that in the wake of the Woodward book, Judy, and a couple of her friends, including the journalist, Tanner, Colby had set out to collect an oral history of John, they didn't know what they would do with it. They knew one day these tapes would come in handy. They did a book that was kind of the tip of the iceberg. But it came and went. And there were these dozens, hundreds of hours of conversations they had had with people in the years immediately following his death. And boom, there was the there was the solution. Because well, you hear it in the film, those that we the our ability to capture that was a function of the great gift from the gods. And from Judy and Tanner of these of these interviews.

Alex Ferrari 32:07
Yeah, remarkable, absolutely remarkable film. And anybody

RJ Cutler 32:10
And incredible people, you know, we're talking about Harold Ramis and Dan Ackroyd and Lorne Michaels, and, you know, on and on and on, and you're you're hearing from Carrie Fisher, who's who was kind of John's soulmate and addiction as well as his one of his dearest friends, your, you know, your, your, you're getting into the guts of it all. And we got into the guts of it all. And that film does, you know, it definitely does

Alex Ferrari 32:35
In the family was very happy with the way it came out from what

RJ Cutler 32:38
I just spoke to Judy, this morning. She we were just you're just reminiscing, and and, you know, expressing our, you know, our mutual gratitude. And yeah, and Jim has been great about it. And, you know, he's, I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you, he's no easy customer. So. So his response to the film was very meaningful to us. That's awesome.

Alex Ferrari 33:08
Now, you, you, you are one of those rare documentarians, I get the jump in from narrative to documentary and you are able to go back and forth. How do you transit for how did you transition from documentary to narrative? And was there a little bit of because I've spoken to other documentaries who have that, and it's always a little bit like, Well, yeah, you're you can tell people you don't know how to tell you don't have to work with actors. You don't know how to tell a story. That's a narrative, you just tell these documentary stories? Is that what you're feeling? Or how, like, how did you like with with if I stay? How did that project come along? And did you have any, any issues breaking through to get to be able to make that moment that movie?

RJ Cutler 33:46
Well, once again, remember that I am I'm a theatre, a theatre director by training. I mean, I spent 20 I, you know, I started working with actors. When I was in first grade. I was directing my I was directing my fellow first graders and and I and I studied theater and I directed plays in college, I was I was a graduated undergraduate from, from Harvard and in those days, there was no Theatre department, but we all did plays constantly. We just produced them ourselves. And there were theaters all over campus. And we that's what we did, and we were so passionate about it and and and and the teachers who did pass through for the kind of special classes now and then in theater practice or or theater drama history or any of the dramatic I had a constant my my major was dramatic theory and literature, but I had to kind of apply through the special concentration thing. We we we studied, we were imbued with kind of, you know the the importance of of the of the message the importance of the of the of the themes, the importance, you know, Making sure that the audience's time was, was well spent to be they've you know, I can't tell you the number of teachers who, who said to me, you know, you're asking people to come out and spend two and a half hours sitting in a dark room with you, you better have, you better have something important to say you better know what it is, and you better damn well be entertaining. And I mean, so many people, they I was drilled into my head, but so was the importance of how you communicate with your collaborators, actors, designers, everybody writers, everybody with whom you're working. So those are things that I personally am trained in I then as I said, spent many years directing in theater. So working with actors is a great joy to me and, and and working with designers is a great joy to me, I'm working with writers is a great joy to me. So it's not new in that way. But it's very different than documentary work. documentary work is, in a way documentary work is more like the theater than film work. Because because you have time in documentary where a lot of time you lie, you have time in in the theater, you spend weeks and weeks rehearsing and weeks and weeks in previews. And you take your time and I love that in the in the in film, you show up on set. And the first thing you hear is somebody were losing the light, they are running out of time, you know, it's all day long, you're in a frickin panic. That's, that's, that happens not to be my preferred way of going through a day I like to chill. And I like to you know, I like to follow the puck, there's no denying to follow the path. We're making a movie,

Alex Ferrari 36:38
You're creating the puck, you're creating the puck at that point.

RJ Cutler 36:40
And maybe and by the way, maybe in the hands of someone who's more masterful at it than I it's different. And they know how to I'm sure that I am certain that Scorsese doesn't feel all day long. Like he's being rushed. I'm certain of it. But I don't know, man, I got on set. You know, I It's I'm telling you, the first thing you hear is you're losing the light. So, but I did love I did love making that film because I got to work with Chloe Meretz and I got to adapt the Scaleform and brilliant Californian book and I got to buy my I love my produce. I loved everybody. And we had a wonderful time and it was a great experience. And equally equally rich was the process of creating with Kelly curry, the Nashville the television series. Yeah, and directing the first two episodes of that. I mean, the pilot of Nashville is one of the one of the all time great creative experiences I've ever had. And I am I I'm I'm grateful to all who made it possible. My work with Kelly query was just like, incredibly, incredibly rich and satisfying. And she so she created these characters and it was and she was so brilliant. And they kind of arrived fully formed and, and and she understood the language and the music and the air and she's you know, she she Gigi. So that was a an incredible honor and and you know I get to direct Connie Britton it's just like what a thrill what it's so many things and and and and the kids who were in that the younger actors the whole Hayden happens here the whole experience and the music you know to be on the stage at the Grand Ole Opry and work with T bone Burnett on and on it couldn't have been richer couldn't have been more joyful in you know my soul was and my heart were were full with those experiences again the process I like i i You know your right to describe it as going back and forth because I went there for a little bit and really these days I'm super focused on my nonfiction work and and and and it's it couldn't be richer in terms of you know what I'm what I'm trying to do with it and the different the different projects so it's it's it's very exciting, but it's different. You know, we like to say well documentary is scripted stuff is documentary backwards because you do the you do the script before in the in the in the narrative and you do the script in the edit room. And it's kind of that but there was a lot the differences are are just massive. And then the similarities are thrilling. It's your still cinema, it's still cinema. It's to me these documentaries. They are not I'm not interested in I'm not actually interested in the politics of it. I'm not interested in the message. I'm not here to give you facts and information. Google does that far better than any film I could ever. I'm here to tell you a story about the human experience to spin a yarn to make great cinema as or to aspire to make great cinema you know as an end to engage you and to move you emotionally and to tell you stories about the human condition. Those are my those are my only interest. Others make documentaries for other reasons. They're great documentaries that are kind of, you know agit prop, they want it. They're there to as there is great theater the tagit prop as the rose Great Cinema that's after Prop. Not really my thing. My thing is, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm telling stories about people.

Alex Ferrari 40:29
Yeah, very, very well, might I add. Now, I have to ask you about two subjects that you had an in two of your films, who are both very polarizing in their own way, Anna and Dick Cheney have very different human beings, obviously. Sure, from very different walks of life, but both polarizing in their worlds. How, like, in, regardless of your own beliefs, either political beliefs or anything like that, I know you have to be kind of you just got to let happen. Whatever happens, what is it like? Just juggling, you know? I mean, obviously Dick Cheney very, very polarizing political figure. And then Anna, to a lesser extent, but very polarizing in the world of fashion. How do you approach these two kind of juggernauts in their space?

RJ Cutler 41:21
Well, your question is in the context of it, there's a there's a present, not a presumption, your there's an assertion in your question that there polarizing figures. And I and I understand why. All all politicians, I think are, especially in this climate. You know, it they, I remember when I can't remember. But I remember when Ellen Powell, was, was, was flirting with running for president. And everyone knew he was starting with running for president, but nobody knew if he was a Democrat, or a Republican, and his numbers were in the 90s. And then he declared that he was a Republican, and boom, his numbers went down to 49%. Because that's the country we live in, and fats weren't gonna support him anymore. And that's, you know, so of course, the Vice President Vice President Cheney, is is is polarizing. And he and I don't I do not I, you know, I think he's, I would never pull the switch for him, I would never pull the switch for any any of his policies, I think he led us into a war that has been a catastrophe and 70 different ways. And, and I wish he hadn't done it. But I do know that he is as impactful, a non presidential politician as this country has ever seen. And, and, and when I started pursuing him, he was his heart was in failure. He had a battery in his heart, for what for, for a heart, as some would say he had a block of ice for a heart, but he literally had a battery for a heart. And he was frail. When I first met with him. He was weak. He was he told me in our first meeting, that he would look in the mirror and see the ghost of his father. And he knew that he was that his time was coming. And pretty much he was sitting around waiting for one of two things to happen. Either transplant would be available, because he was on a list like everybody else, or he would pass and he was at peace with that. This is what he told me the day I met him for lunch in his in his home, by the way at an address that I couldn't find on Google, because they they there was a Google Maps doesn't have Jamie's address. The next time I met with him, he you know is Liz called me his daughter called me right? Um, right. After he awoke from surgery, it was literally like the day he got surgery from the heart transplant. And she said to me, I just want you to know, the Vice President is doing well. And one of the things he said to us before he went in was that if he survived, he wanted to make sure that making this movie was one of the was one of the things that he did this year, so we're ready to go. I mean, it was crazy. It was it was the day and I'd spent a lot of time waiting for them to say yes or no. And will we do this? And again, human beings want their stories told Yeah. So my my ice I said all this to him. When I met him, there was no mystery. I was introduced to him by a Mary matalin who of course, I knew through James and through her we filmed with her on the war room. She knows my politics, but I wasn't I didn't keep it secret. But I my interest wasn't in debating politics. It was in discussing politics. But my interest was in this human, this guy, this guy who, you know, flunked out of Yale multiple times and and was a was a drunkard working the lines and hanging electrical lines in Wyoming with no future, but was in love with a woman who said to him, you won't get it together, man, you're too good for this stop drinking. I mean, he was on the sleeping on the floor of a of a jail cell because he had been picked up too many times for drunk driving. And they finally threw him in the tank. And and his girlfriend, Lynch Lin, I'm sorry not to remember her name. But the woman who would become limp Janie said, if you want this relationship to go anywhere, if you want to spend the rest of your life with me, you're going to sober on up and get it together. And he did. He did. He got it together. He changed his life. He went to you know, he went to graduate school, he was a incredibly brilliant man. He was he was respected by all of his colleagues in Congress. He he he was admired in the administration, he was, uh, you know, he played this instrumental role during the, the first George Bush administration, George HW and in the Gulf War, and they were reasonable. And they they drew the line, you know, they didn't turn it into a long war, they got in, they got out. And they and and they recognize that certain balances, you know, they did, there was a lot to talk about with him, then something happened on 911. And something you know, and we tell that story. But this is a movie that I think for, you know, I want people to watch this movie 50 years from now I want them to watch it. I want them to know who this man was, where he came from, what he did, how he did it, how he defends himself. And he had to defend himself in this film. But, you know, he, he he he put duty versus honor. And he he said your you know, he dismissed honor as a value in this film. Well, that's a really interesting thing. In a person who's leaving a country to war, he had to defend torture in this film, that's a really intense thing that someone has to do. And as I say, I think he's the single most impactful non-presidential politician who's ever I mean, you know, it's no mystery George George W. Bush gave him gave him a lot of rope. He was a he had a lot of power in the administration, and he wielded it and he did some, he did some questionable things. I as a voter would say some bad things. I as a filmmaker, left them as question a little so that he could defend them and you could hear them and we could be on the record with it. You know, and so that's how I approached that, you know, with and I'm just telling the story about a Greg Dino, one of the world's great editors and what is you know, this this bird like little cumin, who also has her father's daughter, you know, that's a big part of it. The the great you know, a Charles Wintour, chili Charles Wintour, the, you know, legendary Fleet Street editor who, who, you know, who, who, for 20 years ran ran the most important paper in England and, and, and who was for her very much a role model and someone who she always wanted to please but but she single handedly when we were with her she was single handedly running this global industry, this multi billion dollar global industry and, and and how does she do it? How does she do it? Powerful Women are very interesting, fascinating. They tend to be by the way, they tend to be controversial, just because they're women in power cord now and they man they got to, you know, I'm starting to film now about Martha Stewart talk about talk about a person in power, who was kind of punished for being in power, you know, for being successful. So, and there's more to say about it, but but, you know, look, ended the day people are fascinating. People, you know, they're able to remarkable, there's some extraordinary folks out there and it's, they've got great stories to tell. And you know, as you point out, I've had the great good fortune of being able to, to tell the number a number of, you know, fascinating, certainly, you know, complex people's stories.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
Now, your latest project with Billy Eilish, can you tell me a little bit about that film and how that came to be?

RJ Cutler 49:27
I was invited to meet with Billy and it came to be because I accepted the invitation and I sat with her and Phineas and her folks and some people from her team and I, I mean, I instantly was engaged as I'm sure that's no surprise. She's an incredibly magnetic person who's gifted artist and this, you know, incredible young woman and and, and they saw in that first meeting, an opportunity to see simultaneously tell the story of a of a young artist coming of age and coming into her own, and a young woman coming of age and coming into her own. And I loved that I loved how real it could all be. And that's, you know, that's the film. It's really very simple. You know, then we just followed the puck, and the puck went to some amazing.

Alex Ferrari 50:23
I love that. I love that analogy. So wonderful. Yeah. But the isn't a true and you've been in rooms with with these kinds of people, there is an energy to people, especially like to celebrities, or artists like that. There's this thing that he can't explain. Like, there's this energy that that they suck the energy out of the room, like all the attention goes to them. It's like you can feel when someone like this walks into the room, and I've spoken to many, many people of that magnitude have been in the room with many people have done the magnitude. And when you could just with their back turn and they walk into the other side of the room, and you just go someone just walked in and you could just feel that energy. Was that what it was like being with it? It doesn't matter what age it is, by the way, it could be. It could be Michael Jackson at seven years old. It doesn't matter.

RJ Cutler 51:11
Yeah. I mean, Bill is a very magnetic personality, there's no question and she, she, as I understand it, she's she has been her whole life. There's and her her, her talent, her brilliance, her poetry, her, her her vision are all exceptional. And, but but she's also this very real kid, you know, that's around, you know, making fart jokes and eating burritos and wanting to slip that slip out the back door with her boyfriend and, you know, watch porn and whatever, you know, and she's just a kid. And who's got the curiosity of the kid and the outrage of the kid and the, and the and, and the ambitions and the and it all, and she met and she's made a music, you know that she sets the fridge. She says her family was one big fucking song. It's true. It's true. And and, yes, one of the questions I had, upon meeting her was what planet does this person come from? And I and I certainly, and what planet does Phineas come from? And I certainly, you know, I remember thinking and feeling that this is, you know, on some level, she's part human part deity, you know, and she really is She's a shaman, you know, she has a power. She stands before hundreds of 1000s. And, and, and literally on a daily basis. She's on the telephone of 75 million followers on 80 million followers on Instagram. And she she leads she is a she is a modern day, you know? I don't know what the what the what the best way of describing it is? Not enough to be like, yeah, da da, da da, is it is it's very powerful. And it's a it's shamanistic, it's very, you know, it's all of those things and and you feel it, you feel the power, and she Pierce's her, the her audience's hearts, she connects with them, they all feel like she's singing directly to them. I've been in tiny rooms with her singing, I've been in enormous rooms with her singing, there's no difference. She she can be in an arena in Miami, that seats 22,000 people. And the kid in the top, the top bowl of that arena in the back row is connected to Billy Eilish the same way the kid in the front row is or the kid in the club. It's just amazing. The space is feel tiny, she has a power. And you see that you see that in the film?

Alex Ferrari 53:51
How in there's no explanation for it. There's no explanation for that kind of,

RJ Cutler 53:55
Well, I don't want to say there's no explanation. I just want to say, you know, those who explain those I'm not. I'm that's not my business. It's my business to show it. And to tell the story about it. Sure, and others can explain it. But I think the film is, you know, certainly reveals the power. I mean, it's a lot of in there a lot of things involved. Let's talk about the fact that first of all, she's not a she's not an only child prodigy, she's one of two prodigies in that same house, they and they need each other, they make each other even greater than either, you know, she and Phineas, they, they, they are up a partnership. So when I say What planet do they come from, on some level? The answer is, you know, Planet Maggie's womb, that where they both spent nine years, just nine months just stating to the same heartbeat. And then they were raised by the same parents and you see all the complex and they were raised in a particular way which as Billy says in the film, You know, first and foremost, they were encouraged to be themselves. And first and foremost, their family was one big fucking song as she says in the film, you know, those that by the way, those two lines I just quoted are pretty much the first line in the film and the last line in the film. So the whole film is about how those things come together. But there lots of explanations. And then some things are just can't be explained can

Alex Ferrari 55:26
There's just this thing is that thing that is it, you know it when you see it, but you just can't articulate well, with it, you know, by Jim Belushi, John Belushi, John Belushi all this life's, you know,

RJ Cutler 55:37
Again, this is a, this is my, you know, I, I have a lot of gratitude, because I'm able to tell these stories, and these stories kind of live in the landscape of people are just, you know, fascinating. And there are so many remarkable people doing these incredible things. And, you know, I'm not kidding when I say it's dust in the wind, we're all here for a blip. Listen, Billy is nothing if not an existentialist, and raised by Patrick, who is nothing, if not an existentialist, as we see in the film. And she's like, you know, I remember early on her being interviewed, and somebody was like, why do you why do you? You know, why do you do it all your way? Why don't you Why don't you think you'd have even more success if you conform? And she's like, Well, why would I do anything that I don't believe in? Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live I'm gonna die. You all you're gonna forget I was ever here. Why would I bother with doing anything? That wasn't true to myself? What's the point? None of it matters. It's like songs that are going to come and then one day no one will even know I was here. And why wouldn't I have spent my time here? There's a child talking. I was gonna say the wisdom your why wouldn't I spend my time being true to myself. And that's our whole thing. That is the whole Billy Eilish thing. Be true to yourself in the way you work. Be true to yourself and the way you treat others. Be true to yourself in the in the art that you put out in the world. Be true to yourself in the way you dress, be true to yourself, be yourself. That's, you know, that's might be considered a kind of radical philosophical approach but hers, and it resonates the world over through her through her, her art and just her persona.

Alex Ferrari 57:20
And where and where can people watch this film?

RJ Cutler 57:24
The world economy according to I'm sorry, we're according to Billy Eilish. Billy Eilish, the world's a little blurry is on Apple TV. Plus there's another series we have on Apple called Dear which is a which is a wonderful project that we did about also about how work impacts people and and then on Showtime is the is the John Belushi film called Belushi. And we talked a lot in this conversation about the war room that's available on criterion. And of course, all these phones, you know, they're all They're all on a streaming service. And, and what a pleasure to chat about it all with you.

Alex Ferrari 58:05
And I can ask you last few questions. I always ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

RJ Cutler 58:13
Make a movie

Alex Ferrari 58:16
Best advice,

RJ Cutler 58:21
Please don't go to film school. Film School is an old paradigm that allow that provided for equipment. And that's it. It's provided for equipment. It gave you access to equipment you couldn't afford. You couldn't afford a camera when it was a film camera steamed dead processing you couldn't afford now. Guess what? Here's a camera. Here's a camera. There's some holding up a telephone. Here's a camera, the new iPhone. It's got an editing equipment on it. Does that trap. It's an upgrade. But you got it all or buy a thing buy a camera from Amazon and return it in 29 days there. It's not illegal. It's their policy. It's how they became the biggest company on the planet. And Jeff Bezos became one of the richest men to ever have lived. He's a Pharaoh. And he says, Please buy stuff from me make a movie and return at 29 days later, and I'll give you your money back. I'll pay for your film. That's what Jeff Bezos says he does. He says it's so so that's what my advice to young filmmakers don't talk about agents. Don't talk about showbiz. Don't talk about film school. Don't just make a movie and guess what? It may suck. Then make another movie it's going to be better than the first one. And that is absolutely my advice. Carry on man. Tell stories with your friends.

Alex Ferrari 59:41
A men preach my friend preach. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Unknown Speaker 59:51
Oh goodness. I hesitate because the left and that took me the longest to learn is when I'm sure I'm still learning. Sure, but But uh, but you know, it's I think it's all going to be it's all going to be alright. It's all going to be fine. Is a good lesson you know, I listen, I mentioned that I was James lupines assistant on into the woods the Broadway musical, the legendary lupine Sondheim musical, that I think it was 1987 or 88 that we did it. And I remember one night James saying to me, you know, the biggest part of my job, you know, what the biggest part of my job is? And it's like what he said, just saying, everybody, it's all going to be great. All gonna be great. And I was like, Oh, shit, that is you say that all the time. Like, that's because part of my job, it's all gonna be great. So how can it be great. So, you know, I say that's a lesson that's that's worth remembering. You know? And so there you go.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:51
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:54
Oh, my goodness. Uh, the Lady Eve. Mm. Preston Sturges film? Mm hmm. Um Let's just leave it at the get. Here we go. Give me shelter. Allen David Maysles. film about the Rolling Stone Maze it out DeMont. And let's see and I'll put on this list. Don't Look Back da Pennebaker, his masterpiece about Bob Dylan.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:30
Fantastic. RJ. It has been a pleasure talking shop with you today, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it, my friend.

RJ Cutler 1:01:38
Likewise, really, really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:42
I want to thank RJ for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, RJ. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch Billy Eilish, the world's a little blurry on Apple TV, head over to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/478. And if you haven't already, please head over to filmmakingpodcast.com Leave a good review and subscribe. It really helps the show out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always keep that also going. keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

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