Bulletproof Screenwriting

Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
So it's my pleasure, Gary, because you are a person who I've had, who I've had, who I've wanted to have on here for a while. You see I'm already messing up, Gary, you see that I've had to, I wanted to have you on here for a while. And I know I say that a lot, but honestly, you and I have, you know, talked briefly before via Facebook and Twitter, and then there was like, a gap, and then we were talking briefly again. So you know, you're just a person who I've met years ago, who I now get to have in this medium, and it's so good to actually reconnect and and, you know, do something like this. I think it's just so cool. You know what I mean?

Gary King 2:31
Yeah, man, I appreciate again, you inviting me because Twitter, you know, years ago was actually a great place to network and meet people, actually physically meet people after you connect online, and it's it's changed a little bit into more of like a news feed. So I appreciate the fact that you would follow up. You did keep in touch, because I think we did meet years ago when it kind of first started and and I've just seen you blow up. And I have to kind of do a little side note here and say, you your voice and your style reminds me of, like, an 80s DJ back when I was, like, commuting to school. I'm kind of old, you know. So, you know, there was these, like, shock jock DJs, not that you do a lot of cussing and, you know, all these weird kind of antics and stuff, but you have that voice that really draws you in and stuff. And so, you know, I think this is a really cool thing that you're doing,

Dave Bullis 3:19
Gary, that is a huge compliment, because I love the 80s. It was the best era of all time, and in the in the course of all human history, the 80s is still the best time to ever be alive, and I appreciate that so much. I now, now my ego is gonna be out of control now, Gary.

Gary King 3:36
It is, it is. It'd be like, just to feed your ego one more time, like, you would be like, one of the guys in rotation at Wk RP,

Dave Bullis 3:43
I'm like, Hey, this is Dave. Wk RP, and I'd have like, a horn or something like, you know, like, exactly. And you're like, Man, this guy's either you think he's brilliant, or your dad would be driving and be like, What the hell is this clown doing on the radio? Exactly? Man, exactly. So, Gary, you and I again, because we met a few years ago, but you and I actually have a same, sorry, a similar trajectory, a similar a similar career path, because you actually started out in it and development and stuff like that, and then you moved to New York to become a filmmaker. And I want to ask about that, just to sort of start us at the beginning. So you, I assume, went to college for maybe computer science or something similar. So, so what point did were you drawn to? Like, the IT work? I mean, we were you always a big IT guy growing up?

Gary King 4:33
Actually, it was HR and not it, because I'm not really technical. I actually suck at that kind of stuff. My brother was the engineer of the family, and I went and fell into psychology for a while, and got a degree in psychology and did human resources for five years. And it just wasn't a creative world, you know, like HR is all about rules and regulations, hiring and firing, and it's just kind of a very depressing realm that you live. In. And after five years, there was kind of some layoffs going around, where it made me kind of wake up from what I was doing, what I really wanted to do. And I was very lucky having my wife answered me when I told her I wanted to make films for a living, instead of, like, What the hell are you talking about? Or, you know, there was nothing like that, she just said to me, okay, so let's figure out how we're going to get you there. I mean, it was like the perfect response, and this was like mid 2000s and yeah, so we've been going at it for a long time, and every film that I do just gets me closer to the goal, but I'm definitely not even close to where I want to be. But it was definitely something where I had a love for it growing up, because my parents showed me all these types of movies from different genres and different eras when I was a kid, and that stuck with me the whole time. Even when I went and studied psychology, I didn't realize there was film school. I didn't realize people made films for a living, and that was part of the issue. That's why I didn't go to film school. I studied something else. But thankfully, as you know nowadays, you don't actually have to go to film school. You actually have to just go make films, and that's part of the process of process of of learning,

Dave Bullis 6:04
Yeah, because, you know, everyone has a camera nowadays, and even making practice films. And you know, that's something that has been talked about on this podcast through a myriad of guests, is just that if, even if you don't have access to maybe, like a red package, or a Sony was the air flex package. You know you have, even if you take your phone and do it like Mark Duplass says, and just make a movie in your backyard for 100 bucks, or whatever. It's all training to build you, to make you get better. So you can do other things, to do more things, to do incident. Now, instead of $100 budget, you got a $200 budget, and then you just keep moving forward.

Gary King 6:39
Exactly, man, exactly. There's nothing more educational than going and like writing something, trying to translate it from the page to the screen, by working with your crew, working with actors, trying to produce the damn thing, you know, and then you're trying to edit the footage to make it seem like, you know, you had some type of you know idea that was that made sense at the time. I there's like, I'm paraphrasing Woody Allen, when he says something like, I have this perfect film idea in my head, and then I slowly mess it up as I write it and direct it and, you know, all that stuff, and when it comes out. So it's such a learning lesson to do every film I'm still learning. And the funny thing is, you know, all my films, the feature films I've done, are out there. And it's basically my film school. They're almost like student films, if you think about it,

Dave Bullis 7:22
You know. So you were talking about Woody Allen, and that's also a guy who, you know, some of the things that he talks about, and some of the pointed things that he says are just like, you're like, oh, that's exactly what the My problem is, you know, yeah, that's what I was doing, yeah. I mean, so, I mean, just to take a step back, you know, I want to talk about just in your background, you mentioned HR, and see, this is me, Gary, when I see Silicon Valley, I'm immediately like, okay, IT guy coding, you know, something with computer science. But so you worked in the corporate world, and that, that's where I was, you know, about what? A year ago or so, I worked at a college. And it was just like, you realize you don't want to do it anymore. It's such a grind. So you moved out to New York to become a filmmaker. I mean, did you, I mean, just to sort of to dig a little deeper to that? Did you have a plan that this was going to be it? And it drove like a day that you set and said, Listen, I'm not going to work this job anymore beyond this day and I'm just gonna go to New York and become a filmmaker. Or did you sort of just do it on a whim?

Gary King 8:26
It was kind of, it was a loose plan. It was definitely my wife had friends and family out in New York, so we, we were living in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, and we said, okay, New York or LA are probably the two most prominent places where you can get stuff down done and network and all that stuff. And she's from upstate New York, so a lot of her friends actually moved down into the city, and we had she worked for the hospitality industry, so she put out feelers to both New York and LA. And I just said, okay, so wherever you land your job, that's fate, telling us that's where we need to go. And those are the people I'm supposed to meet, because I had no connections, and I just figured, you know, I was just going to let you know fate play a hand in who I'm going to work with and what kind of stories I'm going to tell, what kind of locations I'm going to use. And it ended up being New York, and it was an amazing experience. Again, the part of the plan was my wife was going to have the stable job while I was just starting fresh, we did cash out my 401 k, which wasn't much after go to Uncle Sam took taxes away, but we used that to make my first feature film. I saved up a little bit more, and when we moved out there, I made contacts by doing some web commercials and doing some other smaller projects, first, to build up a network of people that saw my passion, saw what I was trying to do, knew there wasn't much money in it, but because of the story I've written and the things that I wanted to do, they were in it for a little pay, knowing that we were going to try to make something that was going to get a lot of exposure for them.

Dave Bullis 9:54
So when you made that first film, Gary, did you write for the budget? No, hey, listen, I can't make a huge action film. You know what I mean, I can't make a $4 million action film or something like that. So did you write, knowing this has to be a small, compacted film, small, not, obviously, you know, it's professional and everything I just met like small, as in scope, you know, again, because we're not right, we're not trying to make a $4 million action film.

Gary King 10:30
Yeah, so yes and no, because my, my first feature film was called New York lately, and at the time, I was really inspired by Robert Altman and PT Anderson, and very a kaleidoscope of characters following multiple story lines like shortcuts and Boogie Nights. The thing was, I also picked that type of project because I was asking at the time, actors to work for no money. It would just be the wonderful meals, copy and credit. So what I wanted to do was have a lot of characters so that each actor was only committing three to four days of filming. It would still be a feature film, but you know, the majority of actors were only committing three to five days of their time, and not like 1620, 25 days of no pay, because I really feel like shit if I was doing that. But this was something where we're casting a lot of newcomers, a lot of people that hadn't had a lot of experience at the time. One of them actually is blown up. She's on. You're the worst. It's Keller Donahue, and she was in a small role in my film at the time. She had some credits, and she she filmed for one day, you know. So it was, it was kind of just trying to be practical about asking for people's time and commitment, knowing you weren't paying to make a multiple storyline, a lot of actors and characters, and then just being inspired by the type of films at that time that I was digging so I just wanted to kind of combine those two.

Dave Bullis 11:50
So let me ask you this, Gary, if Did you ever when, when Heather got, you know, was just gotten that a level, elite level. Did you try to reach out to her, and she say, Who are you, or something like that,

Gary King 12:04
Actually, no, you know, the funny thing was, I moved to LA, right, I think as she booked it, or was a little bit before she booked it. So she moved to LA before I did about four years ago, or something like that. And we connected for dinner and, you know, just cut up, and then she booked it. And so, you know, she definitely thanked me when I texted her, like, holy shit, congrats and stuff. And then, I mean, obviously he's busy now, so she won't write me back as often, but she definitely does respond. She's very sweet girl,

Dave Bullis 12:36
Yeah, and that's awesome. And you know, I always make that joke with friends of mine. If any of us ever, you know, won a contest or got distribution, it'd be like, immediately it all goes to your head and become, you know, like your ego just gets out so out of whack. And we all make that joke with each other that like, as soon as one of us hits like, we're not going to know anybody anymore. Big Time with everybody,

Gary King 13:00
Right! It's almost like, you make it you like, buy a new phone and don't import your contacts. So they're like, you're like, Who the hell is this now? Like, you're not gonna, you know, totally, you're gonna change your whole bike click of people or something. That'd be, that would be actually pretty terrible.

Dave Bullis 13:15
And you know that, that's the dream, Gary, that's the dream. No, I'm just kidding for everyone listening. I'm just making a joke. I don't want people, right? People writing me more hate mail, but, but no, but walking aside Gary, just to get back to, you know, to your career. One thing that you taught me, and this was what you taught me a few years ago, which I've always kept with me, was when you're filming a movie and you're the director, and you're directing these actors, and you're going through take and take and take. One thing you taught me that I always keep with me is each take, you need to have a variation of something, so that way, when you're editing, you have choices to go through. And as you know, poignant as that is, for some reason when I was making my first films, I don't know why. I'd never thought of just even trying to do anything different, because, like, my early films, everything was like, every everything was the same, like every take was literally like, exactly the same. And when you told me that, I was like, oh, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense, you know what I mean? And you make those adjustments. So, so that's something area that you've taught me, that I've kept with me, is just you gotta, you gotta have those choices when you're in the editing room.

Gary King 14:18
Yeah. Man, that's funny, because that basically happened on my first short film. When I was sitting there reviewing the footage with my brother. He was like, dude, like every take, like, all these takes are the same thing. You didn't do anything else. So what I'm like, What are you trying to even choose, except, like, if his hand, you know, happens to, like, randomly lift up at this line versus this other line, or whatever, you know, but basically, I hadn't, on that first film, didn't tell him to do anything different, because I was just looking for the single thing. I was so focused on trying to get this one thing that, you know, I didn't really ask them to play around. But, I mean, directors have different techniques. Some people like, definitely have one single thing in mind, and they're just trying to nail that one thing. And that's what it is. Is, and I've heard other actors say that, you know, why do I want to play around with stuff? Like, just tell me what you want. I'm gonna nail it. So it's funny. It's like, it's, it's this kind of organic thing that you feel on set, you know what you want, and you have to feel out how the actor and how the actor works and stuff. So it's, it's, it's really, really a weird thing to work as a director, because you actually don't get to do it a lot. Well, not me. I don't get to do it a lot, you know, you there's, like, years in between times when you're on set, you can do some smaller, short projects or things like that. But when you think about it, the director, if you're fortunate, maybe you get to do two or three projects a year. If you're you know, if you're playing around a lot more, that's great. But if you're doing, like, really big projects with a lot of money, the the opportunity work with actors is not as much when that, you know, when the money's going, when the crew's there and everything's on the line, like there's not, you don't get to do that very often. So it's not like you get a lot of practice.

Dave Bullis 15:54
Yeah, and very true. And, you know, that's why, again, we were talking about making movies yourself with, you know, even just for practice. So that way, when you do actually get up to the plate, you're actually able to sort of make the most of every, every single take and everything. And, you know, as we sort of, you know, talk about that, you know, these directing styles, one thing too. I forget who taught me this, but basically I think, I think I maybe heard it from somebody, but he said what he would do is he would just let, he would let the actors go. The first take was with no direction. They would just go through the script. And then he, then he would slowly come back in and start making adjustments here or there. And, you know, some people are, you know, maybe their, their third take is always going to be their best for some weird reason. And then the the other actor always has their best take is like the first take, you know, and just sort of working and knowing everybody sort of ticks like that, or knowing that, yeah, the thing you know, that also helps repair, which is also why Gary, I've noticed a lot of directors always work with the same actors over and over again,

Gary King 16:55
Right! Very true, very true. A part of the rehearsal process, if I'm lucky, to get it is finding out actors working style. You know, some people love to be told exactly what to do, like, look here at this line and look there. And others want to be told, What's my motivation? Like, why am I doing this? I need to know and feel organically. If you need me to go over here or do this. Like, tell me, like my internal characters motivation or behaviors or thoughts to be able to do that. So you can always explore that working relationship in rehearsals, if you have the luxury. But you're right. It's funny, because as you start filming, you realize, damn, this, this one actress, okay, her best, takes her to take one and two, and then it just starts to, you know, fills a lot, because she comes out of gates like, boom, you know, right there. And then there's others who are like, you know, we're not really gonna get anything good until it takes four or five and six, because we consistently see Matt and you start, you know, you know, switching up your shot list because of that, which is hilarious. So, I mean, there's so many different things going on set. As a director, it's funny that you got to think about things like that. And I'm talking to you about this because not really. It doesn't get talked about a lot until you actually do it. You realize, oh, that's how it works. You know, otherwise, like books, don't tell you this kind of stuff a lot of the time.

Dave Bullis 18:09
Yeah, that's so true. Because, you know, I have a ton of filmmaking books, and, you know, as I've sort of read them through different eyes, you know, you read the reading through the eyes of like a complete novice, you know, your complete needle. And then you real. And then you realize, some of these books, they're written by people who've either either never written or made a film, and it's a lot of theory, or they made a film, like, 30 years ago. And you're like, Well, you know, okay, some of it's still pertinent, but it's just like, you know, hey, here's a great deal of movie, Ola. And you're like, so it's, you know, it's just stuff like that. And you realize, Well, damn, this book's out of date and, but, but, you know, that's why I wanted to start this podcast, stuff like that, you know, really getting to the nitty gritty of stuff that people can actually take away. And it's actually full on, you know, actual practical advice. No theory. It's just, this is how it is, and this is what you can do when a situation like that arrives. Exactly.

Gary King 19:02
Man, the funniest thing i i definitely in the beginning of my my career, like 12, 10, 12 years ago, I bought a lot of screenplay books. And obviously, when people are writing and they're reading these screen how to you know how to write screenplays. You just take the golden nuggets from each book. Obviously, not every book is the Bible we have to follow to the T, you know. But it's funny, when you actually look at these authors, when you actually research, like you said, you take a look at their actual filmography, like, what have they done? And sometimes it's nothing. Or, okay, they've sold a lot of stuff, which is great, nothing has been made. Or some people like, have sold one thing. So obviously they have some type of credentials, but they're not the only one that knows how to do it, which is, you know, the funniest thing, because I had some people try to tell me, Oh, your script doesn't follow Robert McKee. It's like, well, that's fine, you know, I don't want to follow Robert McKee story. I this, this script doesn't want to, you know, do his formula. There's they prescribed just to one book. Which. Kind of drives me mad.

Dave Bullis 20:12
You know I have I did the same thing. The first book I ever read was actually a screenplay formatting book. It was called the screenwriters Bible, and I did read a story, and, you know, by McKee. And, you know, I've read all these different books, and I think, you, you know, I'm in the same boat with you, because I think a lot of times there's so much theory going on that eventually you have to say, what can I use out of this book? It's kind of what Bruce Lee you always would say, you know, you get rid of, take what's useful and get rid of the rest. And you're always, you're always looking for that. You're always looking for, like, what is that one quote or golden nugget that I'm gonna read that's good? I'm gonna go, Aha. I have an aha moment. And now my perception has changed, and that has given me a new way of thinking to solve a problem or a dilemma or something like that. But you really, those books are really it's far few and far between, because you're trying to, you know, constantly have all this theory and worry about all these formulas. Like, oh my gosh, does this scene have a positive or negative charge? Like, what the hell does that even freaking mean? You know, you're, you're have all this theory in these books. And you sit there and you go, Well, you, how do you? How do I actually implement that? You know, you know, you can't be writing and go writing to a formula or writing to a template, or writing to, Oh, does this scene have a negative or positive charge? And eventually you start getting lost in your own head, and then you never actually, you get stuck in indecision and never actually do anything.

Gary King 21:35
Yeah, that's totally true, because you're right. You just start overthinking things, and part of the goal is just to finish a script. To me, I have so many people that have said, Oh, I'm working on a script. I'm writing this. I'm writing that. I've got an idea. I always say, Have you finished it? Have you finished a draft? Well, no, I haven't. It's like, man, you know, it's like, you got to get over that hump. There's a lot of people that have this fear of just like, actually finishing it and getting that feedback. And I call I call it the vomit draft. There's a million different names for the first draft. You just got to get it out there done and give it to some trusted readers, and just get that kind of feedback. Because, again, almost like making a film. It's writing a script is a learning lesson, because after you write it, you've learned so much. You have something on the page to analyze and dissect now and get some feedback and then rewrite. Because, as they say, the cliche is, writing is rewriting.

Dave Bullis 22:26
Yeah, writing is rewriting, definitely. Because once you get that out, you have to, then you can go back and figure out what actually things are. Oh, this is what this means. And I think a lot of times, too, that's where you get sort of caught up. I think a lot of times where writers get caught up honestly, Gary is input versus output. And here's what I mean by that. I think a lot of times when writers are writing a script, or maybe even on the filmmakers are making a short film or a feature length film, they're more focused on the output of what the movie is going to give them, meaning that, oh, this movie is going to go to Sundance and we're going to win and we're all going to become millionaires overnight. And I

Gary King 22:59
Guilty.

Dave Bullis 23:01
I think we've all had that honestly, man. I think we've all had that where it's like, hey, this, this short film, this, I'm gonna put this up on YouTube, or I'm gonna do this, and we're gonna become, you know, overnight sensations, and that's gonna be our meal ticket. And I honestly think you have to have that attitude at some point, because you have to have some kind of passion or in the game that you're going to be the best one. And I honestly, I think that's actually a good thing. But I think the other part of it is it's like a double edged sword, because then you become so focused on what it's going to give you, that you're not focused on that input of actually making it a good movie, or focused on the right parts of it.

Gary King 23:38
I totally agree it's a hard thing to balance. You definitely, you know you want to make a living at it, so you want that type of success, but it shouldn't be your driving goal when you're creating because then you're kind of guessing what some other person wants when it should be your story. It should be what you want to tell and the byproduct of that. And as always, you see that, especially at the film festivals and the festival darlings, usually it's the more personal the story, it's actually the more accessible it is to an audience, because they still relate to it, because they see that struggle, regardless of race or gender or sexual orientation and whatnot, they relate to that struggle, you know. So it's something where the more watered down, and the more you're trying to guess, the more story by committee the film is, and it just becomes something that nobody really cares about.

Dave Bullis 24:28
Yeah, there's universal themes that really could, you know, hit home and and also, when I noticed when a movie does come with a story, like, Hey, this is my bio pic, or, Hey, this is, you know, something that's actually happened to me, and it's, uh, you know, I mean, I've had, you know, different people who, I actually had a Sundance award winner on here, which was Morgan J Freeman. Now, he's episode 99 he was actually on here. He actually won Sundance, I think, in what, 92 or something. And he was explaining, you know, how the whole thing sort of came together. And, you know, it's, you know, it was a movie. About these kids in New York, and a lot of people were, hey, you know what? That's it has a universal theme. Or you can go grow up anywhere like this. And you know, you'll feel some of that, you know, you'll feel some of that, some of those universal themes like ostracization, being a kid, you know what? You know, stuff like that. And you know, that's, that's why it's not a bad thing to put any of that stuff in a screenplay. You know, I was part of a writer's group one time, and people were actually saying, like, Oh, why does everything have to have universal themes? Blah, blah, this or that. I'm like, because it, you know, it's what draws people into your story, you know, feelings, regret and stuff like that. Everyone has those. And I think that that's a key element to sort of why some screenplays sell, get made, etc, you know?

Gary King 25:41
Yeah, it's funny too, because there's, there's not a formula at all. I mean, I made my most successful one to date was in festival wise. Critically wise was, how do you write a Joe Sherman's on my musical, and it's about Broadway musicians, about Broadway people aspiring for success. And some characters are people that haven't reached it, and they almost have to give up their career. And it's about, you know, striving, but not getting there ever. And even though it's about Broadway, I had so many people at the festival circuit come up to me and say, Man, I just really felt for this character or that character is me, even they're not a dancer or a singer, but within their life, they had some type of goal that they never reached. They never got to get there, and they will never get there. And so it's, again, like you said, a universal theme. It can be in any topic or subject setting, but there's something there that people relate to, and that was powerful for me to learn from that film, because I made other films that I thought were great, and they, you know, didn't turn out how I thought they would going to be. And, you know, the festivals didn't really take to them audiences, you know, some some liked it, some didn't. So it's just, you know, once you have that type of critical success, it's not like you can just copy and paste it to the next thing, you know, it's always, it's such a organic, interesting process to try to just create something that people will respond to,

Dave Bullis 27:06
Yeah, and that's the key. That's why, I think a lot of times when people take these movies and they sort of, they deconstruct them. They'll take, like The Godfather or Raging Bull or whatever, and they take it, they reverse engineer, and they go, how can I make that? Oh, you see this one scene here in in Scarface, where he kills the guy unexpectedly. Well, that that's what you that that's his hero's turning point. Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, you know, at first you when you when you reading screen, when you're reading the screen books, you're like, oh, wow, yeah, that's a brilliant that's a brilliant thing to say. That's a brilliant analytical statement. But then, as you sort of realize, well, but how does that work towards us? You know? Mo, maybe, yeah, you might be able say, hey, if someone's reading your screenplay, hey, remember in Scarface when he did this thing? Oh, yeah, it might be cool here. Maybe, I don't know, but, I mean, like, you know, but to write using that whole idea, I don't know if that's that's that holds a lot of weight to it, you know, you want to, you don't want to be ripping off movies. I actually had a friend of mine who was in a screenwriting competition, but he was a judge, and he literally said he would read these screenplays. And he said, Okay, this is a scene from The Godfather. This is a scene from, you know, casino stuff like that. And he realized they're just copying these movies because, you know, that's what they like, and they're trying to make a version of that, right?

Gary King 28:23
That's true. But you know what, Dave, I think every script needs the line. You know, first you get the power, once you get the power, you get the women. Like, everyone needs that. No, I'm just kidding, but yeah, no, I mean, it's so true though. Like, you can't, you can't just, like I said, copy and paste things. They can definitely be inspired by stuff. But, you know, you can be influenced by things. But to try to just say it worked there, it's a moment I can think that, that I think will just work here, because it worked there. That's, that's a little hard to kind of like force it in. So, you know, it's something where it's it's a learning lesson. Again, I think people definitely, once they finish that script and get that feedback, you can tell when something's, you know, authentic and should be there. Whereas people be like, This feels like it's from outer left field, because it was doing this, and all of a sudden, you put this scene in here, and it's totally doesn't make sense, you know,

Dave Bullis 29:19
Yeah, and, you know, I do agree that that line should be in every movie. By the way, I've take that back. It should be in every movie. And that, that that is, you know, that is something that it just lets you know who the guy is. You know, who that guy is, and they wants the women in the power and and everything. So, you know guys we're talking sort of too about you know, you make writing screenplays and and actually, all these sort of fine points about directing. I wanted to ask about your second feature film. Because, after you made your first feature, after you made your first film in New York, you know, you were, at what point did you start wanting to make your second one? Were you already like, look, I'm going to use this momentum and push this right into my second film, which was, I think I. It was, dying of the dead, right? Or

Gary King 30:13
It's actually, I got lucky. I got hired to make a horror movie called dismal by some producers who were based in North Carolina, and we went to shoot in Georgia. So that was just a director for hire, and I wanted to gain that experience of working with somebody else's script, working with a producer, working on location. So I was out in Georgia for like, I think, five or six weeks. So it's something I, you know, got very lucky with. And I was really excited because I started looking like Woody Allen, or, you know, Steven Soderbergh, like, I was pumping out, like, wow, this this year I got two movies coming out, and then the next year I had What's up, lovely, which I was doing on my own, and I made it for like, $2,000 so I had three movies coming out in two years. So I was like, this is cool. This is something I'm gonna keep doing, because that's it feels so easy, you know, like movie a year, yeah, this is a great pace. Obviously, it doesn't, doesn't work like that.

Dave Bullis 31:04
Yeah, sorry. Eventually the break starts to slam, and you're like, oh man. And, you know, and I think we've all been there too. We were like, well, what the hell is next? And you just want to make something, you know? You're like, I make anything. Let's just do this thing. So I, but I, but I wouldn't meant to say was death of the dead. I'm sorry. I call it dying of the dead, but death of the day. So I'm starting to, like, all, you know, all the Romero movies are coming in too. No, but I'm but, uh, but when you actually, so, when you started to actually go back and make your own films, you know, there, at what point were you just like, you know, I want to go back to making my own stuff. I mean, you did say you got a director for hire gig, and you got to work with somebody else's script. But at what point were you like, you know, I want to go back to this, you know, doing some more of my own, my own material.

Gary King 31:54
You know, at that time, I was really, really inspired by Steven Soderbergh and his body of work at, you know, his commercial peak was, I think, God, the the late 90s, mid 2000s where he was doing, we were saying, we were calling it the one for one for me, one for them, one for them, one for me. So he was doing, you know, Aaron Brockovich for the studio. But then he'd go and make, like the limey, or he make out of sight for the CEO. Then he'd go and make some, gosh, full Is it full frontal? I think it was called so he'd make, you know, smaller independent films, experimental stuff, like the girlfriend experience. I was in love with him, doing smaller films that were taking risks and doing different type of storytelling. And then he'd make something for the studio. And obviously I was doing on a way lower budget, way lower scale and scope. But that was kind of like my idol at the time, just like, you know, if I can sustain this thing where I'm going to make something for myself and then go get hired to do something, and take some of that money and, you know, funnel it back into mine to make another film for myself. Like this could be kind of cool, and that's what I was trying to do in my early, early career, with the first, I think, four films or so.

Dave Bullis 33:04
Yeah, you know Steven Soderbergh, he's always up to something, and it's always really cool to see directors like that. I have a friend of mine. He loves Richard link letter, because Richard just does whatever he wants. I mean, if you watch same thing, yeah, exactly. Because if you watched his latest one, which I think is called, everyone loves some, or everyone wants some. That one that was at last year. I had a friend of mine who watched it, and was like, Dave, is there a plot to this movie? And I said, I said, Well, no, it's Richard Linkletter. It's just, you know, it is what it is. And you know, it's, I knew what to expect going in there, you know. And that's sort of what I think everybody wants to have now, the director's career, who everyone wants to have is, of course, Damien Chazz a because, you know, he did, he did La La Land, and then he did without a whiplash, thank you. Yeah, I just black down that name, but, but, yeah, but, you know, and that sort of the thing is, you know, again, I think a lot of people are focused on that output, because, again, saying, well, Damien now can pretty much do whatever he wants. It used to be Tarantino. Everyone wanted his career because, and that's where I'm guilty at Gary, I still want his career just because he came out of nowhere working at a video store. That's what I love, is that he didn't go to film school or anything else.

Gary King 34:21
Yeah, yeah. Man, I mean, that's, I remember you on your other podcast, you mentioned that you worked, I think, at a video store. I worked at a blockbuster up in Seattle for summer, one summer while I was in school. And it was awesome, man. And I, again, I didn't go to film school either. And so it's something where just watching films, absorbing them, and then again, is more about the actual making of them is is the education you need? I mean, Film School is amazing. Don't get me wrong. If I had the chance, the networking opportunity is amazing. The people, the connections you get, the alumni connections you get, once you start entering the industry, are told. Totally, totally amazing. And that's something I wish I'd done, but I met so many people that have gone to film school, or know people that have gone and they say, Oh, well, they, you know, they don't really, they don't really make movies. So they don't really know how to do, like, direct movies. They they've done some shorts, but they've never done a feature or whatever. So it's, you know, it's still a lip sword, but it's something I think everyone was living that dream when you wanted to be Tarantino or Robert Rodriguez back in the 90s. And like you said, Damien Chazelle, now it's, there's so many that's a good thing, like you have idols to aspire to be, which is, you know, keeps your fire going.

Dave Bullis 35:38
So when you worked at that blockbuster in Seattle, do you have any funny stories? Gary, any funny customer stories? Any?

Gary King 35:45
Oh, yeah, yeah. The best one I remember was we had a tape, you know, the drop box, the overnight drop box. So we come in the morning shift, we go through the bin, empty the drop box, and you always have to do the check. So, like it says back in your last Mohicans, you have to open up the case and to make sure it's last mohicans in there, you know? So we're doing through the check to make sure the tapes are correct. And I open up the case, and the title is just, let's say, last Mohicans. I can't remember exactly it was, but it was this. Wasn't that tape. All it had was this label that said X, handwritten x. What's this? You know what? I'm not sure what this is. We better check to see what it's I have a feeling what it might be. The store is not opening it. I'm gonna put it on the overhead monitors just to see. And it was full on fucking, like it was a total porn. And someone had to turn on the wrong tape. And it was funny, because we had to look up the customer. We had to make that embarrassing call, and as soon as we called, as soon as we called, hey, this is a blockbuster, the customer just said, Oh, you got the porn. Didn't you? Like? He knew, somehow he knew. And so that was, I think, probably the weirdest, funniest story. Because, I mean, who the hell returns a porno to Blockbuster? It's just crazy.

Dave Bullis 36:58
It just called X,

Gary King 37:01
And it is, yeah, they label it x. I mean, what the at least, name it like, you know, Debbie does Dallas or like, like, title of us and his house. You think his Fauci is, like, x, x1 x2 x3 and he has, like, a database, because he doesn't want his wife to know those are like porn. So he's got, like, you know, some secret, you know, filing system or something.

Dave Bullis 37:19
He's hiding it away. And it's weird,

Gary King 37:22
But they're all they're all laid you know, they're all displayed nicely on the shelf, but the wife thinks. They're like, Oh, it's like, X man or something. Like, who knows. But then it's something else totally.

Dave Bullis 37:34
There could be a movie in there too, Gary, like, some guy returns a tape, and the blockbuster, uh, employees, like, watch this, and like, oh my god, this is like a smut film, and then the guy comes after them. There's almost like a movie in there.

Gary King 37:46
That's like, I love Brian De Palma, uh, blowout or that's like, blow up. That's like, that's totally dude. That's like, and you could set it in the 80s, because, like, they don't have video stories anymore, video stores anymore. It's like, 80s or 90s, dude, I think you got a film.

Dave Bullis 38:01
Yeah, we should, we should write that together man.

Gary King 38:04
Well, okay, so dark comedy or a suspense thriller.

Dave Bullis 38:08
Oh, you know what? I think dark comedies work better right now, but it could be a cool Suspense Thriller to throw it back, you know, just almost like that, Brian De Palma style, kind of like sisters.

Gary King 38:22
Wow, that'd be really dark. But I would love a female lead. That'd be cool if she's the one that finds it. And then, you know, this guy starts trying to, like you said, trying to get that tape back, or whatever. That's interesting. That's That's pretty cool, man,

Dave Bullis 38:37
By the way, everyone listening to this. That's Gary, and I now trademark, right?

Gary King 38:42
Licensed

Dave Bullis 38:43
You and I gonna be in the theater, just like eating popcorn for a preview of something, the new Tarantino Manson Family murder movie, and they're gonna see that's gonna be a trailer this idea, like, wait a minute, that was that podcast I did with Dave. That was our idea.

Gary King 38:57
Right, right from Paramount Studios X.

Dave Bullis 39:01
She was a lonely video store, and then it changed. Yeah, it'd be, but it would be, you know, that that would be a fun idea to do, because I know a lot of times Kevin Smith, you can't say, because this is a podcast, but I have a Kevin Smith podcast finger in front of me, and he always uses his podcast as sort of like a way to sort of get new movie ideas and stuff like that. I think it's great because I think podcasting is such a really cool tool some people, some people make books out of it, like Tim Ferris and James Altucher and stuff like that. And I really Kevin's idea, though, just using it to sort of facilitate, you know, making new movies and stuff like that, or, you know, or what have you. I think it's just really cool as a creative outlet, you know what I mean?

Gary King 39:45
Yeah. I mean, that is really cool. I didn't realize he did that. It's, I think, if you have. An audience. Podcasting could be amazing, you know, because it is the way to directly talk with them, instead of having to like write tweets or like a long Facebook post. I mean, it's definitely something where it's a lot more you get to like express yourself a lot more quickly, and something like you said organically, instead of having a proofreader writing and then just sharing with your audience and then getting feedback that way. That's that's interesting. That's interesting, man, it's something, again, if you had a pretty good listening audience, that's something that really could work, you know. And he has, he has huge audience. I mean, he has a huge audience.

Dave Bullis 40:32
Yeah, he does. And, you know, I actually have, I've had on the Thornton brothers, and they had a really cool idea for a film that centered around a podcast. And basically it's about a guy who was in his basement, and he's this real far right radical guy, and he has this podcast that he uses to sort of just through all this venom and hate to out in the world. And then one day, a listener comes to silence him, and it's a really, really quiet thing. It's called Cactus Jack, and I can't wait to see them do it. And I really, you know, just hope that that they keep pushing forward with it.

Gary King 41:07
Now, did they? They pitched it on the show to you, or they were already working on it, and they just kind of told you, this is what we're doing. Oh yeah, they were already working on it. They pitched it. Okay, okay, yeah, that's cool. I mean, it sounds like a, like a one location type of thing. There's like, a smaller budget to be able to just, or is it like a huge scope tech movie?

Dave Bullis 41:24
Oh, it's just one, one location, almost like, Don't breathe nice, which I think is awesome. And I'm like, guys keep going with that idea. Man,

Gary King 41:33
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, because it totally reminded me, and it's totally not the same film. But just pump up the volume with Christian Slater from the 80s, and he wasn't even like a far right guy in that movie, but he was just this underground college DJ. But I just kind of see that setting, just like if they can get an actor to be, you know, charismatic as Christian Slater from back then, or if it's a female, who knows if they're actually thinking it's gonna be female, but, I mean, yeah, whoever's playing that DJ better be fucking charismatic, because they're going to be carrying that movie a lot as that's really cool.

Dave Bullis 42:02
Yeah, they actually did some test screening, and he's actually real, real interesting. And by the way, I apologize for going off topic, and I'm talking about other people's,

Gary King 42:11
No man, no, that's awesome. That's awesome.

Dave Bullis 42:14
So let's talk more about Kevin Smith, but you mentioned one of your movies, by the way, that you crowdfunded, which was, how do you write a Joe Shermer song? I wanted to ask you about that, you know, you successfully crowdfunded a large portion of, I believe there was gonna be an orchestra as part of, like, one of the extended goals, I believe. So I wanted to ask Gary, you know, where did the impetus for the idea come from to actually make this film? And, you know, and really, how did you go about, you know, actually, actually making it.

Gary King 42:45
So I've always loved musicals. Growing up, my parents showed them to me, and it was something that I always just enjoyed, like I did not have a problem with people just breaking out in a song and dance. And they showed me, like, singing in the rain, The Music Man, my fair lady, and I loved them. And then I discovered West Side Story, which is a little bit darker, but they still broke out into song and dance. And I was like, This is awesome. You know, musical is one of my favorite genres. And then I discovered all that jazz. And I was like, Wow, this blew my mind, like the editing style and the the way the songs were incorporated into the film, versus them breaking out in a song and dance, like I, you know, that's a totally different type of musical. And then once came out, and I was like, man, okay, so this is, like, low key, smaller film, but amazing songs, you know, but shot $450,000 so I was like, okay, like, I love musicals. I don't think we make enough of them. And I wanted to do something from modern audiences, which kind of blended both the spectacle and being realistic. So I wanted to write a story that kind of was grounded in reality, but still had some amazing songs, but I never had the songs, so I just had that idea for years, until after I moved to New York again. I was there for a few years, networked, made a few films, and Mark deconso, one of my lead actors from New York lately. Had a friend named Joe Sherman, and he said, Dude, I want to show you something. We were we were at, let's see, trying to think North Carolina. We were in North Carolina at a Charlotte Film Festival, and it was in Mark's room, and he pulls out his laptop, because I want to show you something. He's like, dude, Mark, I don't want to watch porn right now. You know, we're at a festival. It's all good. And he's like, No, no no. This guy named Joe Sherman. He writes music, and it's awesome. And he showed me some songs, and it's like, there's this guy for real. Like, is he already signed? Is he doing Broadway movie, Broadway shows? He's like, No, he just moved from Minnesota, and he's just, you know, fresh off the boat, and he's, like, trying to make his way in New York. And I was like, I gotta meet this guy. And we did, we talked, and I told him about my initial idea about aspiring artists that are anonymous. In New York, there's so many you know, amazingly talented singers and dancers in New York, but they're your waiter, they're your server, they're your bartender, you know, and you'll never know that they're actually talented. That was the first spark of the idea of the film to be like, I want to show what these people. Do, and the struggles they go through, and the fact that you'll never know, because they'll never make it. And that evolved a little bit after but that was the beginning, and with his songs Incorporated, and just starting to do a few drafts, and just, you know, honing in the story, that's how it became the movie that it is.

Dave Bullis 45:21
And you see that's, that's sort of how those ideas sort of ferment, you know, those ideas sort of come out of nowhere, you know. And it's just, it's just amazing how even a simple thing, someone showing you a video, can just open up a whole new sea of things and a whole new sea of ideas and possibilities,

Gary King 45:37
Right! Man, I have, like, literally, right now, 15 different ideas. And back then, you know, I was tooling around with like, three or four and but the thing that always happens is I meet somebody, or I find a location, or something happens where all of a sudden that idea bubbles to the top. So for among us, the film that's coming out, the horror movie, come out August 8. Gotta plug it. That film. I had always wanted to do a horror movie, but, you know, didn't think about it. Other than that, I just want to make something scary. And again, Mark dican, so my usual guy, the actor, said, my family has a lake house up in Maine. We could totally shoot for next to nothing, as long as we just, you know, we can stay there, just make sure we don't screw up the house or anything. And then, you know, and I was like, Okay, you can't blow it up. Okay, we won't blow it up, but we'll make it a haunted house. But I want to twist the convention to play with the genre, so it doesn't feel like paint by numbers type of movie. But that's, you know, again, like, that's why that movie came about. That's why we shot that one next. So there's always something that comes into play that brings the project to the to the surface.

Dave Bullis 46:39
So you can't blow up the house. You can't, you can't go through the walls. You can't, you know, put blood everywhere. All your fun Gary.

Gary King 46:48
I know. Man, I know. So then we just wrote a, you know, one room talky movie with white walls behind it, and shot on high eight VHS and all that stuff. No, just kidding, no. I mean, we definitely that was, that's the part of the fun is like, Okay, so there's a little bit of, you know, constraints. So how are you going to be creative around that? And that's what, how the film became what it is.

Dave Bullis 47:11
You know, it's funny. And I do want to ask you about the about the film again, just one second, I would say a little anecdote about filming in a friend's house, a friend of mine, a friend of mine, when I did my student film, which was my first ever film, I actually he said, Hey, we can film my grandparents house. He goes, they're away. They have like, three houses, and this is the one house that they're not going to use, and they're not using for the time, for a long while. And we can film there. The first day of filming, we accidentally knocked the entire door off the hinges, and because this guy had to burst into a room, right? So rather than rather, and what happens is the door, I've never seen a bathroom like this, the door hits into the sink. There's no stopper or whatever. So he bursts in the room, and he hits the door, gets the sink, and literally, the door comes off in his hand, like he's now holding the door, like it's like a prop. And he's like, What guy goes What the fuck did you just do? And now we're like, We're trying, and we're trying to actually figure this out. So then it becomes the idea of, do we call a carpenter, or do we try to fix it ourselves? And it's almost like a sitcom. It's almost like a bad 80s sitcom where it's like, Oh, great. Now we got to fix this door. And as we fix the door, something else has to break but, but we ended up. The guy's dad was actually had a carpenter friend. He came in and we he actually fixed the door for us at a later time. It just, it was just the incident itself

Gary King 48:48
That's so two things come to mind with that story. So number one, hopefully you use that take in the film like that made it into the oh yeah and okay. And two, you could totally tell you guys are film nerds versus, like, sex freaks, because, like, risky business, like, if someone's house was empty, like party, but you guys said, Let's make a movie. You guys were film nerds, which is great. Kudos to that

Dave Bullis 49:13
Exactly a couple of guys fill a house to themselves. Time to make a movie, right?

Gary King 49:19
Right? That's the first thing that comes to my mind.

Dave Bullis 49:23
It's funny too, because that same guy, his grandparents let us use their beach house. This is, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to keep calling these stories, but no, this is great. This is great. He said, hey, my grandparents let us, gonna let us use their beach house. So, you know, of course, hey, let's, let's bring down some beer. Let's bring out some stuff. Well, he when we get there, he says, oh, there's only one rule. And, and I said, What's that? He goes, there can be no girls here. And I said, why is that? He goes, Well, if somebody were to come in, he goes, my like, for my family, he goes, then they told my grandparents they would get upset because they're very old fashioned. And, and this and that,

So I said, Well, we can all we can make another movie while we're in here. And he stared daggers into me, and he goes, he goes, I'd rather just have a party.

Gary King 50:21
Nice,

Dave Bullis 50:22
Yeah, because this guy was, I think, a little burned out of movies into the first one, but, but no, it was just hilarious and and that, that was, we ended up just actually driving the AC anyway, because he's right by, he was right. So we ended up, I ended up winning like, 200 bucks at a slot machine that night, but, but that's all, but I want to get back to you with your your actual filmography, and your latest film is actually due out the August the eighth. So if you could, you know, could you just give us a sort of a summary of the film? Give this log line and, and, you know, just a little more, any more information you give us about the film?

Gary King 51:03
Yeah. So among us is it's a supernatural thriller. A horror thriller. It's about two it's a married couple of two characters. Mainly, it's very character driven story about my original idea was to start the movie off with people just leaving the house already, because with most horror movies, you always ask, if the house is haunted, why don't you just leave? So this one, we already address it. They leave the house and they get into a car accident, the husband gets paralyzed, and we flash forward a few months, and they're struggling with their marriage now that they're living in an isolated area, hoping they escaped whatever was haunting them. They've lost their child. They're a broken family, and the story is really about trying to move on and trying to still stay together and still love each other amongst all this tragedy, and there's a haunting still. So it's something where I try to make something a little bit different, but still play with a lot of stuff, where there's, you know, some scares and some suspense, but there's definitely more there. And I don't want to talk about the other, you know, elements that I put in there. Other than that. I love to I channeled Brian De Palma, Little John Carpenter. But also I had films when I was writing it and making it that I showed the actors and my DP that I wanted to kind of feel in terms I wanted our film to feel like in terms of the tone. So it'd be like Eyes Wide Shut. That marriage. Think about that marriage that they had, the gray with Liam Neeson, Joe Carnahan, the gray, Three Colors Blue was another one insidious, the descent Rust and Bone. So these were the ones that I kind of told people like, these are the films that show people that are struggling, and you you really care for them. And that's the kind of movie that I really wanted to make,

Dave Bullis 52:46
Yeah. And I love those, those movies, by the way, that you mentioned, because, because those movies, you know, are those sort of movies where it's more about the character and more about, you know, using the location you have, rather than again exactly, rather than again, exactly. I'm sorry, Gary, oh no, just that. Yeah, I'm agreeing with sorry. I thought I kept cutting you off. I'm sorry about that. No, so, because sometimes I, you know, accident cut people off. I'm sorry about that, but I always like, whoops, sorry. I didn't mean to step on your line, but, but what happens is, you know, movies like that are really, really cool. And I mean, like the gray for instance, I remember the selling point for me was they had a production still, or maybe it was, it was just a quick video, and Liam Neeson had those broken mini bottles on his hands, ready to fight those wolves. And I went, Well, this movie is going to be great. I mean, how can you go wrong about that?

Gary King 53:36
Right, right! It's, yeah, that movie is amazing. I was one of my favorite movies that year. I mean, the the performances, and again, just the kind of movies that I love is like, you really get to know the characters, you care about them, and then the shit goes down, you know? And that's something I analyze. And this is how we're talking about scripts. Like, I didn't analyze the script of The Exorcist, Exorcist, but I watched it, and I remember it was about 40 minutes into the running time before anything really anything really, you know, spooky happened. So it was 40 minutes of character development. And I was lucky enough to talk to William freaking at he did a book signing, and this was in Brooklyn. We just had watched sorcerer, and he had an autobiography come out. And after the screaming, I got gone to sign, and I just said, Hey Mr. I said, Billy. No. I didn't say Billy. I said, Mr. Freakin what advice you have for me if I'm going to go shoot a horror movie in a few, a few weeks? Actually, do you have any advice? Just simple advice. And he just said, no bullshit. Scares make us care. And that's exactly what what I aim to do.

Dave Bullis 54:42
So, and using that advice, that's what, when he says, no bullshit scares, using that advice, I does he mean, like, none of the sort of stuff where, like, you know, a scare happens or and it's like, turns out to just be a false, you know what? I mean, like the person sort of looks behind the curtain and there's nothing. There and then, because that,

Gary King 55:01
I remember, because the exorcist had a moment when, you know, the mother goes up to the attic and there's a big candle, and then a flame, and she's scared because the caretakers up there. So that's like a genuine thing, because that happened, I think it's the one where the hand comes off and touches you. You know, when they're like, I'm trying to think of what movies it is, but like, a characters looking around a spooky house, and then a hair, I mean, a hand comes from a frame and then touches a shoulder, and then the music is jacked by, like, you know, 10 times louder now. And just just to give you that scare, versus, like, a scare that's earned, you know,

Dave Bullis 55:35
Yes, and there's actually a really good sort of movie school, if you will, about that where, if you look at the first Halloween with Donald Pleasance is sitting outside Michael Myers house, and those kids go up there, and they're like, Hey, knock on the door and Donald's Pleasants as Dr Loomis goes, Hey, Mike, you know, get out of here, you motherfucker, you little shit. Yeah, and the kids freak out and they they run away. Well, Donald pleasant so proud of himself. Well, the sheriff grabs his shoulder real quick, but there's no music whatsoever. There's none. It's just, it's just loom is going, Oh, my God, Jesus, you could have been Michael Myers, you know. And it just that, that right there. And I realized I never even thought of it until I watched it again. I'm like, Man, there is no musical cue there. And it's brilliant. It's almost like that guy, John Carpenter, knows what he's doing,

Gary King 56:20
Right! I think he might have something. He might go places. No, but like, yeah, Halloween is an amazing film. And I think there's another scene where Jamie Lee, Curtis Laurie, is walking in the daytime, and she's walking home from school, and I think she's staring at the house, and as she's staring at the house, she bumps into somebody. And again, I don't believe there's like a music cue there, but it starts the shit out of you, and it's exactly, you know, the point like, so we have something in my movie where I totally didn't purposely try to make it a jump scare, but there's a moment like some character says something to someone whose back is turned, and I didn't put in a cue. I didn't put in, like a student to try to, like, just make people jump because it's not earned. That's like the joke, that's like a startling moment, versus like a truly, truly terrifying moment where you're startled because it's actually happening to that character in that scene, not because the score is making it happen.

Dave Bullis 57:13
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because I think that that, and that's the main problem I have a lot of modern horror movies too, is, there's no real there's no real idea of there's no real core. You know what I mean? It's it just feels like it's sort of put together. You know what I mean? And it's just, I actually has a problem. I have a lot of movies lately, but I digress. I mean, I, trust me, I watch so many movies Gary and I, I have a 20 minute rule, if you can't draw me in with the first 20 minutes, I turn it off. You know, I'm done with that, but I just feel sometimes that there's not a lot of, there's, there's a there's too much money not to create, not enough creativity, or maybe there's, there's too much focus on the output, enough on the input, you know?

Gary King 57:57
Mm, hmm, yeah. I mean, thankfully, there's a resurgence of solid horror movies lately. But like you said, I mean, for every solid horror movie, there's like 10 that copy it or copied the one that came before it that was a hit, and they don't really know what they're doing. They're just trying to copy the formula. And that's that's when it just becomes stale. Or, you know, something where you're like, this, this, has no this had no reason to be made except for money, because obviously, people really didn't care about it.

Dave Bullis 58:26
But so with your new movie among us, coming out on August the eighth, you know, where are they? Can people view that at?

Gary King 58:34
It is actually available on every major cable provider, which is amazing. This is my first time. My film is going to be this wide to basically be on demand. So if you're at home on August 8, you can just turn on your cable provider, and among us, we'll be there. You can also get it on iTunes, Amazon, Google, YouTube, like all those kind of streaming kind of services, VOD services, you can get. And it also is available on DVD and blu ray on amazon.com, and the DVD and blu ray have some bonus features. So has a deleted scene, alternate ending, and some bloopers, so you get some fun stuff that way. I love physical media. I still collect physical media. I know I'm old school, but I wanted to make sure our distributors, gravitas ventures, put some bonus features on if they're going to put out physical media, I think you got to put something on. You can't put out you can't put out bare bones stuff. You got to put something fun for people to be able to want to collect it.

Dave Bullis 59:26
Yeah. I mean, gravitas is awesome, by the way. I mean, congratulations on everything, Gary. I mean, you know, just, just from meeting you a few years ago. I mean, you have just exploded. I'm like, Man, he's Twitter verified. He's got a wiki page. I mean, man,

Gary King 59:41
Well, yeah. I mean, if that's, uh, if that's success, then sure I'll take it. But you know, obviously for me, and the funniest thing is, like. If there's You're never satisfied where you're at because, man, 10 years ago, I would have loved to be here now, where I'm sitting, being like, man, okay, a film with distribution, that's awesome. Because, you know, when I first started, the first two or two films I made went in terms of distribution, didn't get picked up. And so now I'm like, I have distribution. This is great. They actually gave me a sweet deal. We're making money. This is awesome. But now, obviously I want something bigger. I want something a little bit more, and that's the thing that drives me to keep going. So thank you again. I didn't I totally don't mean like not to sound like I that I'm not very appreciative. I totally love the fact of where I'm at, but it's just there's so much more to do and so much things to to create that I just want so much more. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 1:00:50
Oh, yeah, I completely understand Gary. I completely understand man, you know, there's nothing wrong against universal theme. There's nothing wrong with wanting a better life for yourself.

Gary King 1:01:00
Right! That's true. Man, that's very true. But yes, for the funniest thing is the I was shocked about the Wikipedia page. I have no clue who created it. I was really shocked about that piece. I mean, I still don't know some sometimes I see it being updated and like, wow, I don't, I don't know who's doing this. This is funny. See, I expect Go ahead.

Dave Bullis 1:01:21
No, no. I was gonna say, See you. You've got this fan base you've been developing, and they're doing it, you know? And they're, they're, they're holding the Gary King. Or they could think you're that guy from that world's end with that Simon page.

Gary King 1:01:32
I think that's the page. I think that's the page. They're actually, they thought they were doing, and then it turned out to be me, yeah, that's, that's pretty much, right?

Dave Bullis 1:01:39
When I saw that movie, I was like, oh, Gary King. I know that guy.

Gary King 1:01:44
That was part of the fun of that movie, because my friends said, when they were watching they would giggle every time. Not, I mean, the movie's funny, but they're like, it was the extra funny factor, because they'd be like, Gary King, and it's like, they just think of me start giggling.

Dave Bullis 1:01:58
Yeah, it's again. That's how I got another layer of enjoyment out of that movie, too. Just because, by the way, Gary, speaking of which, some Twitter questions came in, do you have a few minutes just to answer maybe one or two questions? I Yes. So this question came in. I'm sorry. Let me go grab my phone. I know this is a not good for an audio podcast. As I grabbed my phone, I know everyone's like, All right, so this one came in and it said, I demand to know what Gary's favorite records are to write to all caps, this is the most important question. So Gary, Gary, what are your favorite records to write to

Gary King 1:02:39
Jesus man, oh god. So yeah, it's, it definitely varies from script to script. Obviously, when you know you're writing a certain genre, you kind of pick, make, create a playlist for your stuff. So I actually did a music drama that's done, and we're in development almost, you know, hoping to shoot soon as being shopped around. It's kind of a road trip movie about a singer songwriter. So I pulled up, man, I made a playlist of this, these random people, you know, the beauty of Spotify, and I'm not being sponsored by Spotify here, but, I mean, I can pull up the playlist right now, since I'm sitting at my computer, I can just, I'll, I'll name a few artists from that playlist that I that I had, but so you went to your phone, I'm going to my laptop. Let's see here.

Dave Bullis 1:03:28
By the way, I actually just submitted to have this podcast on Spotify. So if you are endorsed by them, Gary, please put in a good word for us.

Gary King 1:03:36
Right! Okay, so I had, let's see. So I had some Johnny Cash. Joni Mitchell, Marvin, Gaye, Beach Boys, let's see. Iggy Pop Ario Speed Wagon, Joe Cocker, the WHO future islands. Let's tell this this reader, I'm not this reader, this listener. I will share my playlist with you. If he tweets me, I can, I can always send this off to him, like, I can make it public, but, but, yeah, no, it was, it's definitely like, it's a road trip movie. It's, it's a singer songwriter, and she meets a guy who plays like the blues. And so it's all these different styles that are going through. And she's remembering her father passed away, and he loved, you know, older kind of music, like the Beach Boys and stuff. So it's like, so it's like a mishmash of all these types of musical styles. So it celebrates various types of artists and genres as this movie goes along. So I'm really happy about it, and I can't wait to make it.

Dave Bullis 1:04:33
The guy did actually tweet both of us. So it's Dave Mahal, and so you can see, you'll see the tweet on your timeline,

Gary King 1:04:41
Right! Nice. Okay.

Dave Bullis 1:04:43
And the second question that came in Gary was, was, sorry, I put my phone down, but I know the gist of it was basically, was, basically, you know, where, if, if you could give any advice for a person to start making a film, where would it be? What would it be? I'm sorry,

Gary King 1:04:59
Um. Um, any, like, first time, first time ever.

Dave Bullis 1:05:02
It's like, a first time filmmaker,

Gary King 1:05:05
I would it's funny because I remember. So there's pieces of advice that Altman says is, basically, don't take any advice. And he's a maverick, and he's one of those guys who didn't take any advice and you just did his own thing. So that's, that's, you know, one thing that you can say with the other one is, for me, is just not to give up. Definitely see it through to the end. Because once you do, you either know if you love it and if you've bitten by the bug to want to make more, or if you've had enough and think, Okay, I did that, and I'm going to try something else now, because filmmaking is not easy. There's a lot of work into it, a lot of different people that come into play. I was very fortunate to meet people early on in my career that believed in me and wanted to work with me for very little money. And I know the duploss brothers say this to where they say, you know, if you're if you're making a movie and people, you're paying people 100 a day just to be there, but you know others are asking for more. Those aren't the people you want to work with, and you're starting out because you want people there for you, for the story, not from the money, because at that stage, at that level, everyone's there trying to make something great, trying to elevate their careers. So it's something just do it. Do it for the love, and then do it again.

Dave Bullis 1:06:16
And you know, that is excellent advice. Gary, don't take any advice. No. But

Gary King 1:06:21
Right. So whatever, I just said, just delete it, and then just go do what. Go do what you want.

Dave Bullis 1:06:26
Yeah, and seriously, and getting together, and this is not to, not to keep you for too long. I'm sorry, Gary, I know we're going over, but it I just wanted to mention one thing that I've been listening. I listen to a lot of podcasts on my drive to and from work, and I also listen to a lot of books on audible, via audible. And one thing I've noticed is, you know, building that mastermind, building a crew around you, you know what I mean, of people who are not only supportive, but also are striving to make you better and also bring you opportunities and stuff like that, and, and, and it's a mutual beneficial thing. You know, it's not just all them giving to you. But I think just, you know, building the finding those people is like a skill in of itself. You know what I mean, like finding a producer who just would work with you, almost like finding like your your Frank Marshall, or finding like your Lawrence Bender, something like that. You know what I mean, right? And people have asked me to, because, you know, I do. So I'm okay. This is the only time where I'm gonna get a little cocky Gary. I'm not a very cocky guy. I am actually, I'm not gonna just just make stuff up. I'm actually very good at networking and producing stuff. I that is the only time I'm ever gonna I've realized I'm it's just like a natural thing for me to do, and I'm always meeting new people and stuff like that and that.

Gary King 1:07:46
That's gonna be your sound bite to promote this show. By the way, you're just gonna use that piece right there.

Dave Bullis 1:07:51
Like, who is this guy again? Why do I listen to the show? But that's actually what I'm really good at. And honestly, when I've been able, when I've been asked to do other people's movies, I'm always like, I don't want to fucking do that. I don't want to make it somebody else's movie. I want to make my own movies, you know? And it's just kind of, you kind of wonder where to draw that line, though, because that's what I've been wondering in the in the in the past couple of years, because I've turned down so many movies projects have been offered me as producer, because I'm just like, well, there's no money. Just, well, you know what I mean, and it's probably good for both of us. I turn it down because I, you know what I mean, like I was just looking for money from this one project, or I might, you know what I mean, and it's not what I really want to do. So my heart's not into it, you know what I mean. So I think it's good for everybody. If I, if me saying no,

Gary King 1:08:38
Yeah, no. I mean the a great producer is hard to find. I produce myself out of necessity, not because I love it, but finding a producer that loves it is rare, and if they're good at it, you got to hold on to them. And that's why I'm sure, like you said, Lawrence Bender worked with Tarantino for like, three or four films, and all these other people, if they partner up, they partner up for a very, very long time, and it's something my wife does very well, and she does for my films only because, like you, you know, it's like, I believe in these projects, I don't want to be hired to do something, just to do it. So it's something where it's such a hard skill and it's such a it's not only hard, but it's something it's something. It's very delicate. Like you said, you have to be very good at what you do to get things done right away. And it's, it's again, if I might be giving you a call later about producing, but now I'm just kidding you definitely. The cool thing is, as a filmmaker, for yourself too, you know what it takes to produce something, so as you're writing it or as you're directing it, you can wear both hats to know what you can demand of the crew or of yourself based on what you have with the with the project, and if that's a a really great skill like that's what I'm proud of as a director, having produced, I know when to ask for things and when not to ask for things based on what's going on and the producers really. You know, appreciate that.

Dave Bullis 1:10:16
Anytime you want to call me Gary to talk about producing, let's do it, man.

Gary King 1:10:21
All right, sounds good.

Dave Bullis 1:10:23
I was just telling the story the other day about how I got a bunch of different locations for free, and people were like, how the hell did you do that? And I said, Well, it's a funny story. So, but, but, you know, it's just, you know, I've been doing a lot of writing for the past couple of years, and I hope to actually enter some scripts in a slam dance this year, you know, just to sort of get that juice back. And that's when the main reason I created this podcast was not only just to do something creative, but I get to meet all some people. And, I mean, it's just been all positives, you know about this podcast. And it's just, you know, it's just awesome, man and Gary. I just want to say thank you so much for coming on. And where we go. I just want to have one more question. That is, where can people find you out online?

Gary King 1:11:06
Thanks for having me. First of all, I, you know, this conversation went really, really quickly, so I enjoyed myself a lot, and they can find me at the best place is grking.com that's grking.com I believe there's links to my Facebook, to my twitter there, and there's information to all my films where you can find them. So New York lately, what's up? Lovely, and how do you write a Joe Sherman song? You can see a little bit of information about them, as well as links to Amazon Prime, where you can watch them for free. And you can find out information about among us, my latest horror movie coming out, where I would love for you guys to check out, and I appreciate the support. Gary, I want to say, thankfully, you have to add one link to x, the project. The working title also

Dave Bullis 1:11:50
Just x, a handwritten X. And yeah, by the way, was X? Was it a VHS tape, or was it a DVD?

Gary King 1:11:56
VHS

Dave Bullis 1:11:58
I'm hooked. That's it. Let's pitch this tomorrow, right?

Gary King 1:12:02
I'll make some calls. We'll get some meetings.

Dave Bullis 1:12:04
Seriously, let's do it, man, let's do it. One, yeah, what's stopping us? Nice, nice. Gary R. King, I want to say thank you so much for coming on buddy,

Gary King 1:12:14
Dave. Dave B, thank you sir, and hope to come back again sometime, and definitely we'll be talking soon too.