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BPS 491: The Screenwriting Advice Hollywood Writers Actually Use with Andrew Bloomenthal

October 1, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There is an enormous difference between loving movies and understanding how filmmakers actually make them. Andrew Bloomenthal has spent years exploring that difference from both sides of the table. Andrew is an entertainment writer, screenwriter, and independent filmmaker whose work has appeared in Script Magazine, Creative Screenwriting Magazine, CNBC.com, and Variety. His unusual career has allowed him to interview accomplished screenwriters and directors while continuing to develop his own projects, giving him a perspective few writers have: he gets to study how professional filmmakers think while simultaneously confronting the same creative challenges every screenwriter faces.

Andrew didn’t originally plan on becoming an entertainment journalist. His professional background was primarily in financial journalism, even though filmmaking and screenwriting were always his greater passions. A friend repeatedly encouraged him to combine those two worlds by interviewing screenwriters. Andrew resisted because he wanted to be the filmmaker being interviewed rather than the journalist asking questions. Eventually, he listened. Previous interviews with Oliver Stone and Michael Moore gave him enough relevant material to pursue an opportunity with Creative Screenwriting, and suddenly journalism became his doorway into conversations with the very filmmakers he admired. Instead of pulling him away from filmmaking, interviewing writers allowed him to understand their struggles, victories, working habits, and creative processes at a much deeper level.

One of Andrew’s strongest lessons is the importance of treating every professional opportunity seriously, regardless of its size. When he started receiving entertainment-writing assignments, he didn’t divide them into important projects and insignificant ones. He approached each article as though he were covering a major studio release because every piece published online became another example of his work. For screenwriters and filmmakers, the same principle applies. That tiny short film, low-budget commercial, first screenplay, or obscure assignment may become the work somebody uses to decide whether you’re ready for a larger opportunity. As Andrew explains, “every story is going to serve as a calling card.” The industry may not see all the work that went into your career, but it can certainly see what you put into the world.

His approach to interviewing filmmakers offers another valuable lesson: preparation separates professionals from everyone else. Andrew became frustrated watching directors and actors endure the same generic questions during press junkets. Rather than asking a filmmaker what it was like working with an actor for the hundredth time, he studies the movie carefully and searches for something specific. While interviewing Ralph Fiennes about The Invisible Woman, Andrew asked about the technical construction of a particular musical sequence—how live vocals, sound, and editing were coordinated. Fiennes immediately responded to the specificity of the question, and the conversation ultimately led to Andrew being invited to conduct a one-on-one interview. The takeaway extends far beyond journalism. Whether you’re pitching a producer, meeting a director, interviewing for a crew position, or approaching a potential collaborator, knowing their work demonstrates something no generic compliment can: you actually prepared.

That preparation doesn’t mean becoming rigid. Andrew always enters interviews with questions prepared, but he remains willing to abandon the plan when something more interesting appears. He describes the process as being ready to “zig and zag.” A filmmaker might answer a question in an unexpected way and suddenly reveal a far more interesting subject. Following that thread can produce something no predetermined list of questions ever could. Screenwriting operates similarly. Structure and preparation give writers direction, but stories sometimes reveal possibilities that weren’t obvious during outlining. The skill isn’t blindly obeying the plan. It’s knowing the plan well enough that you can recognize when departing from it makes the work better.

Andrew’s journalism background also shaped one of his most useful principles for screenwriters: economy of words. Whether writing an article, interview, screenplay, or story, he believes the material must remain concise and interesting. Anything unnecessary should be removed. Repetitive words weaken rhythm. Clichés make writing feel generic. Every sentence deserves attention. Screenwriters should recognize the connection immediately because screenplays are among the most economical forms of storytelling. Page space matters. Dialogue matters. Description matters. A screenplay doesn’t reward writers for demonstrating how many words they know; it rewards them for choosing the right ones. Andrew’s advice is simple: care enough about the writing to make deliberate choices.

Deadlines are another area where Andrew’s professional journalism experience translates directly into screenwriting. He says he thrives under deadlines and considers himself almost “allergic” to missing them. Professional assignments make accountability unavoidable, but personal screenplays are more dangerous because nobody may be waiting for them. Andrew acknowledges that writers working on their own projects need to become the person cracking the whip. Without an external editor or producer demanding delivery, filmmakers must manufacture their own discipline. A screenplay that remains perpetually unfinished can’t attract an actor, director, producer, investor, or audience. Eventually, the writer has to declare that the work will be completed and hold themselves accountable.

Perhaps the most exciting part of Andrew’s story arrives when the conversation shifts from discussing other filmmakers to making his own movie. At the time of the interview, he was preparing to shoot a roughly fifteen-minute musical short based on a play that had stayed with him for years. The actors had been cast. Four songs had been recorded. Vocal tracks were prepared for playback. Locations were being scouted, props assembled, and shots planned. Andrew describes the process with obvious excitement because filmmaking suddenly transforms writing from an isolated activity into collaboration. A story that previously existed in someone’s imagination begins requiring actors, musicians, locations, equipment, schedules, and dozens of creative decisions.

That transition may be the most important filmmaking lesson in the entire conversation. Writers can spend years wondering whether they’re qualified to direct something, produce something, or finally turn a screenplay into a finished film. Andrew argues that much of that hesitation comes from doubt rather than an actual lack of permission. Once other collaborators become involved, the project begins developing an energy that doesn’t exist when you’re alone with a keyboard. At some point, preparation has done its job. The screenplay exists. The actors are ready. The locations are found. The shots are planned. And the only thing left is the moment every filmmaker eventually has to face: calling action.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Joining me today is Andrew Bloomenthal. Andrew is an entertainment writer whose work has appeared in Script Mag, Creative Scriptwriting Magazine, CNBC.com, and Variety Magazine. Andrew, how are you, sir?

Andrew Bloomenthal 0:00
I'm doing great. Thanks, thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I'm a big fan.

Dave Bullis 1:12
Oh, my pleasure, and thank you for saying so, Andrew. Just to get started, you know, a question I always ask everybody: Is how did you get started as an entertainment writer?

Andrew Bloomenthal 2:24
I've always been a journalist, primarily in finance, and it's always been great. I've always picked bills, but I've always had a more passionate love for film and filmmaking. I'm a screenwriter myself. I I made a film, independent feature a few years back, and so I've always been a fan of the art form of films and screenwriting, and I revere screenwriters and I revere actors. And I had this friend; we all have a nagging friend who tells us what to do, and we protest, even though they're probably right. And she actually suggested, you know, Andrew, you have the skills. Why don't you, you know, put your journalism abilities to interviewing screenwriters? And I just kept protesting and saying, no, I, I have no interest whatsoever in talking to filmmaker because I want to be the subject. I want people to interview me. You know, it was kind of a jealousy thing, but she was she was absolutely right. So one day I did a Craigslist search for entertainment writers, and lo and behold, Creative Screenwriting Magazine was looking for journalists. Now I did have one click in the realm of finance because I interviewed Oliver Stone when Wall Street Part Two, Money Never Sleeps, came out. I don't know if you saw that, or if any of your listeners saw that it was Sheila Buff and Susan Sarandon and Michael Douglas. You know, sequel to Monster Hit. So I interviewed him for the finance magazine that I I wrote it for because you know the the protagonist was a greedy hedge fund manager and so there was some kind of a tie into that world and so I had that writing clip and I also did an interview with Michael Moore when he did a movie and you're gonna have to forgive me because I forget the title, but it was all about Wall Street corruption. So that was another tie into finance. And so I interviewed him for the Pinterest magazine that I worked for as well. So I had those two clips like in my back pocket, and that was good enough to get the job ready for creative screenwriting, and it just my friend said a big shout out to her who she'll be listening to this. Hey Wesley, I finally took your advice and it changed my life. It turned out to be a blessing because it really is a chance to commiserate with like people screenwriters who. You know, only writers understand what writers go through and trials and tribulations and the ups and downs, and the victories. So that's how I got into it, and it's been it's been bliss. You know, I live in Los Angeles now, and I get to go to all sorts of screenings and press events and have sit downs one on ones with with well known writers and directors, and so it just kind of happened organically. And and next up for me, I'm going to be interviewing Don Cheadle, who is the writer and director for a a Miles Davis biopic called Miles Ahead that he's writing and directing into Onion as Miles Davis. So it's been it's been a great ride.

Dave Bullis 5:47
That sounds amazing that you get to interview all these you know awesome people. You know, I was looking at some of the people that you've interviewed. The way we met was even when you just interviewed the screenwriter for The Revenant. You know, I was just reading that that in Script Mag, and I'll link to that interview in the show notes to everyone who's listening. But it's just you know, like you said, you know, you you understand, you know, what writers are going through, how they sort of have to build this, and I think that's even more interesting because the the writer for the Revenant, and I'm very sorry I forget his name right now, but that's right, Markels, he because he had to adapt the work from from the book, and the person who wrote the book actually works for Obama and the and the United States, I think Treasury Department. So he can't even promote the the movie or anything. So I'm sure that you know that whole process of creating that was probably pretty interesting because I don't even know if he's been allowed to contact the original author to ask him, and if he just went in blind and just sort of you know made it his own without any input from the original writer. But again, you know, but again, you know, you've interviewed so many awesome people, and you know, one of the questions I always you know I wanted to ask you, Andrew, is you know with Script Mag, any of these other magazines too. You know, when you actually see those job listings, like we're looking for new writers. You know, is there any tips you ever have for anybody that that's you know submitting to those to those postings?

Andrew Bloomenthal 7:13
Yeah, I definitely like there to be a certain level of transparency. There's no way that an entertainment journalist is going to make a lot of money. That's not why we do what we do. So it's always important for you to find out, you know, what they're paying per article. So there's no surprises, and so you and the publication are kind of you know seeing eye to eye, and you have you know an equal expectation of what the terms are. So I would say make sure that there's a an easy communication between you and the the editor. That that other than that, I think it's about like a slow build to get your your I guess writing portfolio to escalate to higher and bigger films by starting out with whatever small assignments are offered to you and just say yes to everything. That's how I began with creative screenwriting, I was assigned certain stories, and I just I just ran with them, and I treated each one as if it was like a huge studio blockbuster. Because the internet is forever, so you got to put your best foot forward ever, and in every single case, because that's going to be every story is going to serve as a calling card. So treat every story like it's of equal import. That's one thing I would say in terms of doing actual interviews. I think the important thing to do is overlook the blunt and obvious cliched questions, like you know, what gave you the idea for the film, and what was your experience writing? You know, like things like that that are just like obvious, you know, housekeeping questions. I call them they're okay to ask, but I think the real the the riches are in the niches. I've heard some say, so I'm going to claim credit for that thing, and and by that I mean get granular, ask real specific questions, because that's that will that will wake somebody up. I'll give you an example. When I was interviewing Ray Fine for The Invisible Woman, which was a really lovely little biopic, where he was playing Charles Dickens, and it was about his affair with an actress who was like 30 years his junior, and this was like not done in polite Victorian society.

Andrew Bloomenthal 10:10
So he had to keep her in the shadows; hence, she was invisible woman. So, not to throw other journalists under the body, but during press day, we were doing this roundtable, and and people were just asking him questions, you know, in his capacity as the director, and they were saying, so, you know, you played Charles Dickens, so what's harder to act or to direct yourself? Like he's going to get asked that a million times, or you know, how did you do research on someone who's dead? Like somebody actually asked that question, and I just wanted to roll my eyes. I just felt so terrible for Ray Fine because he was like, "Am I really here having to you know entertain these these blunt questions? So I sort of like interrupted and I asked a very specific question, but a very specific scene about this moment where this his girlfriend, this young woman and her family, she had like several sisters and her mother. They were a band of traveling actors, and they were unpacking into their house after doing a touring show, and they broke out into this lovely song. It was just almost like this kind of lullaby that they were singing as they were unpacking their clothes from their luggage, and the way it was cut together, it was just beautiful. But they were singing live, and you know, as opposed to singing to a pre-recorded track. So I asked them about that scene. I said, you know, how did you how did you cut that together? Did you, you know, get the sound mixer on board with you when you shot it? Like a real technical question, and you instantly perked up. You're like, oh my god, someone's asking a question I haven't been asked before. And just as I was leaving that day, the PR person who coordinates these interviews, she grabs me and says Ray Fiennes wants you to do a one on one, so which is you know when it's just you and him. So people you know a screenwriter director they'll they'll notice if you take the time to really watch the film and really come up with very specific and very detailed questions because when you're making a film when you're writing a film, every bit of dialog, the names you choose, every every word choice is very deliberate and purposeful, and there's there's a story behind it. So that's my best advice when you're interviewing someone is come up with real specific, granular questions. You know, say I noticed she had a bizarre hairstyle, or you know, I I noticed there was a you know this this dialog was very one-sided, where it felt like one person was talking more than the other. Was that what were you trying to get get at in in in crafting a scene that that way, and they will respect you, and they will give you interesting things as opposed to, you know, very blunt phoned responses, which happens if they're getting the same questions asked over and over and over again. Because that's what happens when they do these press junkets: is they're getting these same questions over and over and over again, and they tune out. So, if you can go up with something original, yeah.

Dave Bullis 13:25
You know that that's something I've seen too, Andrew. Is when the person is, you can see a lot of these actors at the end of the press junkets because when that same person has been asked the same question about you know 1000 times, they they physically look almost beaten down, like they just the answer is that they it's it's not even they don't have to think about it anymore. It's just a reaction now, and you know what was it like working with John? Oh, you know it was great and he's talented. You know, blah blah blah, and and that's why usually if I'm gonna catch an interview with somebody, like for instance, like Quentin Tarantino, he always seems like he's upbeat. But I've noticed, I I think he's been more selective recently about all his interviews because after that, the the one interview he had where he sort of got testy with the interviewer, and I think now with with when he's doing the Hateful Eight, it's more like you know, he had Christopher Nolan interview him, and then he also had Chris Hardwick of of the Nerdist. You know, he had Brett Eastinellas interview him, and I listened to all three of those interviews I just mentioned, and not one question was the same in any of those interviews.

Andrew Bloomenthal 14:36
Right, because these people they they know that there's there's more to the story than the obvious things. I saw I think it was Entertainment Tonight or something when someone was interviewing Meryl Streep about you know the the role she played in what was called Ricky and the Flash. I didn't actually see it, but there were things. Her daughter in real life played her daughter in the film, and it said, and the question was, "What was it like to work with your own daughter? And like, you know, what the fuck is she gonna say? It it it stopped. She's like, you know, oh, you know, it was it was great. And what what what did you what what did you what did you think when you first did your first scene with her? And she was like trapped, you know. She's trying to, you know, put on a smile, and you know. So it's it's deadly for these actors, directors, writers, you know, fill in the blank to be cornered with these such trite questions. And but so if you get in there with something original, you're gonna you're gonna wake them up. Also, what's very important is you get press notes, production notes, which give you all these behind the scenes stories. So it's already there. So once you know the questions, like you know, the origin story. How did they come up with something? Then you can ask slightly derivative questions. Like, okay, I know you know it's well known that you you know got this story by reading this novel, but what would you? What was something that just disgusted you with the novel you had to eliminate or that you struggled with? Like you know, get the questions that are beyond the obvious ones, and and that makes for a good interview, in my opinion.

Dave Bullis 16:25
You know, Andrew, you mentioned you know you know a couple of things in this, and I wanted to tell you a little funny story. And when I was shooting a film about about three or four years ago, we actually had a student film, student, sorry, a student journalist. He was a senior at a local college, and he came by the set, and he wanted to interview us all for for the the college newspaper, and we said sure, and you know he interviewed everybody. You know he asked asked some typical questions, and when we finally got we finally got the copy. It was both online, and it was both. You know, we also got the physical version. I don't think he could have done a worse job if he had just made it up. And what I mean by that is he misspelled everyone's name. He got the name, the name of the production wrong. He gave credit to people that took like he credited other people as the director, other people as the producer. He got everyone all mixed up, and he also basically the whole the whole last paragraph was basically like talking about the film that had nothing to do with the film, and I was just looking at this, and I was like, "What, what, what, that, what happened here? And and his his professor actually called me to ask me about what I thought about the about the assignment, and I I actually asked him first. I said, "Did he give you my number? Because this is for his credit. And he said yes. He, you know, we have to do this and it's due diligence and this and that. And I told him flat out, you know, I'm kind of torn. I don't want to to to you know. I know he's a senior in college. I don't want to throw him under the bus. But at the same time, I was like, this whole thing's a mess. And and the professor, you know, I heard me out, and he's like, well, I'm very sorry about that. I actually saved a copy for myself just because I now use it as a laughing point because one guy's name he actually completely just butchered it, and we're we'd had to go back and we're like, oh, we think this is you because he because his name was Steve and he called him like he called him like Chris Woodward or something, but so we were like, oh, I guess he means you, Steve. So it's just, it's just stuff like that. You know, I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, Andrew. I'm guilty sometimes. Sometimes I mispronounce people's names on here. That's just because I'm an idiot. But other than that, yeah, I do my I do my best to to do to get everyone's names right when I finally put this up online.

Andrew Bloomenthal 19:06
Yeah, great. You can do great preparation, which is you know why I was enthusiastic about doing this interview or this this podcast because I've never done one before. But I you know clearly your subject is in good hands and you do do your homework. To be honest with you, I didn't know where this story was going to go. I thought you were going to be like, he was a wonder kitten, and he did the best interview ever, and it was in his nature to be a star. But you know, yeah, getting someone's name right-that that that sort of that kind of goes without saying that when you're in in the in the field of reporting, like it's especially when it's there are a lot of like with Alejandro Anaritu, like there are so many accents, and and and kill days and weird little marks, you know, on top of his name. That like I just cut and pasted from the the press notes to make sure I didn't fuck it up. But you always, yeah, that that that's. I'm not sure how much there's to say about that, but yeah, do make sure you get everything right, and make sure you run a spell check, and make sure you read your stories out loud because sometimes your eyes will trick you into overlooking mistakes because you know what it's supposed to sound like. But until you read it out loud, you won't catch all your mistakes. But you have to forward me this story. I mean, don't don't don't name the name of the the journalist. But now now you got me curious.

Dave Bullis 20:46
Yeah, I I actually forget the name of the journalist, but I promise you, as soon as we're off here, I I will find it online and I will forward forward it to you. It is it is good for a laugh now that you know the story behind it. And maybe I should maybe I should link to in the show notes too.

Andrew Bloomenthal 21:02
Say again.

Dave Bullis 21:04
Maybe I should link to it in the show notes as well.

Andrew Bloomenthal 21:06
Nah. Well, yeah. Like that would be you know, but as long as long as you can put out some kind of redacted document so it doesn't get like humiliated on on the internet. Remember. Yeah. But no, no. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm I'm curious. Maybe maybe he'll hear this, and he'll, and it'll inspire him to be more thorough moving forward. But

Dave Bullis 21:27
Yeah, I mean, it was about four years ago, so I'm I'm gonna, I mean, I know he's he's graduated by now, so maybe he's working for some newspaper somewhere.

Andrew Bloomenthal 21:37
Maybe he's like the editor of the New York Times. Maybe he turned it All around, yeah, we shall see.

Dave Bullis 21:45
Because you know about about pronouncing names right, you know. Just as another quick funny story, you know, there's only one person who I've ever interviewed who I was incredibly nervous about interviewing, and that we that was Cassian Cassian Ilves, who is a A-list producer out in Hollywood, he's done you know the Dallas Buyers Club, and for some reason I could not pronounce his last name, which is odd because I have said that last name 10,000 times, and it came to interview him, and I was like, it was. He's like, he's like Dave, listen, he's like, it's like pronouncing Elvis, but but he's like, just put the W. He's like, just, just, just listen. It's like it's very simple if you say it right. And I was like, oh my god, this guy is gonna hang up on me, and he's gonna be like, who is that Dave Bullis kid? I never want to talk to him again. But

Andrew Bloomenthal 22:34
That's a cute little hiccup because it's like you're tongue-tied because you're like geeking out. I get that. It's like you know, in print when you have the chance to you know double check that's what you can't. Those mistakes are more unforgivable. But yeah, we all butcher in in pronunciation from time to time. Ain't no big thing, but well, yeah, yeah,

Dave Bullis 22:56
Yeah. He was he he was you know he he was very understanding. Yeah, I mean I I was, but I was a little elated, but but yeah, I mean, he he was a very nice guy and a heck of a of an episode too. As we talk, Andrew, you know about about interviewing people, you know, you also, I mean, you have done such an extensive extensive you know portfolio of writing, you know, and I wanted to ask, you know, has your business writing? Because I know you've written for CNBC and the financial sector. Has that helped a lot when you write for like the creative sector? Because I I have a feeling that it it actually improves your economy of words.

Andrew Bloomenthal 23:33
Yeah. Well, the short answer is I don't care what you're writing about, whether it's um Whether expository writing, just pure information, or whether it's writing a story, or whether it's an interview, the same elements have to be in place for it to be a success, and that is, it it has to be concise. It has to be interesting, you know, and that and and that that flies across the board, no matter what genre you're dealing with. Especially, you know, when you have a chance to edit something before it goes live, you know that you know you gotta gotta cut out anything that's Superfluous things like never using the same, never repeating the same word in a sentence or in a paragraph, being very careful to look up different synonyms. You know, you make your thesaurus be your best friend so things rhythmically sound right, so yeah, I the subject matter may be wildly different, but you know you'd always got to just and there's no real you know alchemy to doing it. It just means you know for giving a damn and and really concentrating, but. Yeah, so that that all writing, no matter what it is, it it does have to have a certain you know economy of words without too many extra beats, and it should be interesting. And for God's sake, don't use like cliche things like this was an amazing story. There are a million other ways to say amazing, you know. Like so that that's that's my recommendation is it's try to use some of the take take the road we've taken when you can when it comes to choosing your your work because you have the entire vocabulary at your disposal why not why not strive to be interesting in its use.

Dave Bullis 25:38
So when when you're writing Andrew, do you outline first? Like, do you sort of outline whatever you're going to write about, or do you sort of jump right in?

Andrew Bloomenthal 25:46
Well, when it comes to that, that's a really, really good question because when it comes to interviewing people, and and and I think that's you know where people are reading my interviews more than say my you know business Writing, but but when you are interviewing people for you know whether it's an investment person or a screenwriter, be prepared to zig and zag by having that outline, knowing the must-have questions. But when they say something that's interesting and you can sense a more interesting hook that you hadn't thought of. Be be prepared to, you know, go off on that tangent with them. That's when the hook will find you, and you didn't even expect it. I I struggle to think of a specific example, but you know, if you think you know what they're going to say, and you know you're you're you're usually you're usually wrong if your question's rooted in something that's kind of interesting. Usually, they'll they'll come up with something anecdotal that you hadn't thought of, and then when you have to follow a question, that's when you hit the money and hopefully get something that no other reporter has ever asked. But yeah, it's critical to do your homework. I never show up at an interview without formulating, you know, a list of typed-up questions. And you know, sometimes when you're doing these press interviews, especially if you're doing them in person during a press a press junket, you might get 15 minutes. You might get 10 minutes. So you do have to sort of prioritize and jump around and try to squeeze in as many things as possible. But you're always trying to tell a story. You know, you you you hopefully a dialog starts to develop an organic rhythm and conversational, and I bet they're having a good time. And usually, when they are, they'll. What happens a lot of times is when you're doing these interviews in person, and let's say it's a 15-minute interview. At the 14th minute, a PR person will sort of walk into the room and put up a finger to signal we have time for one more question, and so you know to wrap it up and you know make sure you get the essentials that you wanted. But more often than not, if the subject is having a good time, they'll be like, oh, let them go a couple more, and that does happen more often than it doesn't. So I guess I, I can get some, you know, I can feel good about that. But yeah, preparation is is is definitely key. Just to have your your questions typed out, easy to read, big font, so you know you're not having to, you know, squint and search for them. They're just right there in your face, and get a highlighter pen, and you know, cross them off as you go, and and be be be frosty, be on your toes, and get ready to you know just jump in and kick into another direction if you're prompted.

Dave Bullis 28:59
You know, Andrew, not to ask a cliched question, but I guess I have to ask it, and that is, you know, what is your your favorite interview that you've ever done?

Andrew Bloomenthal 29:08
Ah, that's a really good question. Okay, my favorite interview that I ever did, and this goes back to when I was first starting, and I was just taking whatever assignments that were handed out to me. It was for kill your darlings, and the guys that wrote it. It was written by a team of guys, and I forget their names, so that's gonna sound bad. But they they they wrote it together. They were college friends, and they wrote it together. And then one of them took the directing credit, and we just sat down and just went for about half an hour. And it was almost like we were rapturizing. They were they were completely they they didn't expect the questions be so thoughtful, and you know, we did. There was a press conference beforehand where everyone was in the room asking them questions. They were sitting in front of the room at a table, and the questions were those mind-numbing, obvious ones, and they were just like they were just spent. But when it was time for my one-on-one, like they both perked up, and it just the answers were clever and informative. And so, I think I would say the the the team of guys who did kill your darlings, and by the way, that's a movie that that that was a story of Allen Ginsberg, the beat poet. They imagined his college days at Columbia University, just sort of discovering himself and sexuality, and you know, meeting other beat writers of the day, and you know Allen Ginberg was played by Daniel Radcliffe of Harry Potter fame, and so I think that interview is my favorite. My second one would be Nicole Hollis Center, who wrote and directed Enough Set with Julia Louis Dreyfus and James Gandolfini. Why? Because she was hysterical and sardonic and witty and funny, and we had this banter going, and it just it just made for a very lively discussion. So, kill your darlings and enough said would be my two favorite interviews,

Dave Bullis 31:38
And I'll make sure to link to those in the show notes as well to everyone listening, but but but again that that I had to ask that question, Andrew, even though it is very cliched, because usually you know it's like, so what's your favorite color? You know, but you know,

Andrew Bloomenthal 31:54
No, no, no. Let me say this: when I say like the the basic try questions, there's nothing wrong with them. It's that they're good to get sort of like you know they're they're obligatory. You have to ask them, but just don't like make the whole thing be sort of straightforward. I'm unimaginative, you know, blindside your interview subject with a question you know that they haven't been asked because it's so arcane and and and granular and unexpected. Like I said, you've got you've got your job locked down, or else I wouldn't be talking to you. I'm having a blast for for sure, and and and and I can say that having you know full disclosures, I you know I am slightly nervous to be doing my first podcast, but you've you've clearly come to the table prepared, so you know you've already got this locked in for sure.

Dave Bullis 32:51
Well, thank you, Andrew. Thank you.

Andrew Bloomenthal 32:52
Oh yeah,

Dave Bullis 32:53
I always try to keep this. I try to keep this just fun, and you know, like a positive. You know what I mean? Like I don't want to. I always try to keep the show upbeat as much as possible.

Andrew Bloomenthal 33:04
Yeah, and also you're listening to what I say, and then what you're doing, you know, because I'm, you know, I do Q and A's myself. You're also sort of putting it in context of your own experiences, so it becomes like a dialog, not a monolog, and and it puts the interviewee in a very comfortable place. So, no apologies. You're kicking ass and taking names.

Dave Bullis 33:32
Oh well, you know, I try, Andrew. You know, I and you know, as you know, as we as we talk about you know interview skills and your writing skills and everything. You know, one question I wanted to ask you was, you know, about deadlines. And you know, George R. R. Martin recently missed a deadline for his latest book. And he, you know, he said, you know, in a blog post, you know, I deadlines. You know, I've never been good with them. And you know, what I wanted to ask you was about, you know, your own personal experience with deadlines, which is you know do you feel that they they help or do you think that they maybe hinder just your own personal experiences?

Andrew Bloomenthal 34:11
Yeah, I I I thrive under a deadline because when you do your interview and prepare, and you're preparing for it, and you and you get it, and it's on the tape. Then you know you don't have to worry about scheduling or stressing out about whether I'm going to get good answers or not. You've already got your materials, and so then it's just quiet time between you and your keyboard, and that is like a sort of a charmed phase to the process. And you just know when your deadline is going to happen, you can manage your time accordingly. So I'm I'd like to say I'm allergic to missing a. Deadline, because you know when you're in the news field, like that'll get you fired. So you know that trained me well. But you know when it comes to submitting stories for their consumption online, basically you sort of build a trust with the the PR firm, and you ask them when would you ideally like this to run? Would you like this interview to run, you know, the the same day the film opens, or you know, maybe a week before to give it some build and some anticipation, or do you want to wait? You know, two weeks after to sort of like maybe get some exposure and give yourself some legs after it start after it maybe started to die down after you know its opening week. So they'll tell you when it's good for them, and and then you sort of reverse engineer it. You know, it's it's it's not a daily deadline when you're doing the interviews. There's a little bit of a long wick to the process because you know you'd have to go to a screening, obviously, and you're going to usually that happens on a studio lot, and you're doing that well ahead of you know the film's release, so you go to the screening, you get all your notes going, you study the production notes that the PR team will have given you. Usually, it's like a 50 to 60-page PDF where they tell you everything that you know not to repeat because you know going back to what we said, you know, those are the obvious things. So think beyond what is contained in the production notes and just use those as the launch point. So you get your questions ready, then you do the press day, either in person or sometimes it's a telephone interview. And so usually you have, you know, you're looking a month out, you know, when to get everything done and get it done well and getting getting it done on time. So you know there there there's really no good reason to miss a deadline. And you know when it comes out and the PR team is thrilled with it, and they just want to work with you again. So, I think respecting a deadline is a is is a given, just like you know, getting someone's name spelled correctly.

Dave Bullis 37:33
Yeah, you know, I concur, Andrew. You know, I've even if we give ourselves deadlines, you know, I feel that's more of you know incentive an incentive to get to get it done. You know, somebody once told me that goals without deadlines are just dreams. Yeah. And so basically, you know, if you let's just say you know somebody wants to write a screenplay, and if I just say you know, hey, one day I'd like to actually write one. Well, if unless you actually make sort of a deadline to actually start, you know, actually building that screenplay, it's just sort of, you know, it's just a wish. It's just a, you know, a dream. It's you know what I mean?

Andrew Bloomenthal 38:09
Yeah. Now, now, now you're getting into a whole other, you know, writer, you know, dilemma, and and and that for another podcast. But you're at, you're absolutely right when you when you when you're dealing with your own projects, you got to be extra vigilant, you know, and you got to be your own sort of guy who cracks the whip on yourself. But when you're writing for like you know a news outlet, you know, you just gotta you gotta be compliant. So, for sure.

Dave Bullis 38:48
And you know, speaking of of your own projects, Andrew, you know, you know what what what projects are you working on now that that you can discuss right now?

Andrew Bloomenthal 38:55
Well, I'm I'm glad that we're doing this now because like you know, a couple months ago, I wouldn't have had anything to say except that I'm working on a screenplay. But now I'm actually in pre-production on a musical. It's actually going to be a short film, about 15 minutes long, and it's a story that's based on a play that I saw in Manhattan, like I think in 2003, and I just like it. It moved me. It stayed with me for all those years, and now I'm finally doing something with it. It's a. I don't know if I should give too much away, but there it's it's singing. So there's four songs, and I've cast the actors, and we've already laid down the vocals for the the musical tracks because, like any musical, you have to have the songs in place so that the actors can listen to the their their own audio playback. So it's going to be like a almost like a long music video type thing, and it's an incredible story that a lot of psychiatrists and she's treating this patient who's been really destroyed and distraught over a traumatic breakup with his girlfriend, and she's trying to help him master, you know, the loss of his girlfriend. And she puts him under like the psychiatrist puts him under like a light hypnosis to get him to revisit the past with his girlfriend, and then in doing so, the psychiatrist sort of like falls in love with him and crosses all sorts of professional and ethical boundaries. And so I'll leave it at that. So it's more of a surprise when it comes out as to what she exactly does. But I've got the actors down. The songs are mixed, and we're going to be shooting in about three weeks. So deliriously excited. There's just nothing like planning out your own shots and getting props together and scouting locations and casting the the actors and all that good stuff. I gotta say, these are songs I I can't sing, I can't write a song, I can't play an instrument, but I know good songs when I hear them. So for me to be going into a studio and you know with a drummer and the the vocalists doing their thing, laying down these tracks, has been a new foray for me, and it's been incredibly fun, incredibly fun. So that's that's what I'm working on right now as we speak.

Dave Bullis 41:56
Oh, that's amazing, Andrew! Congratulations.

Andrew Bloomenthal 41:59
Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Dave Bullis 42:02
You know, you know. Again, like you were just saying, you get the storyboard, and you know, it's really great for a writer when you can finally start seeing all this stuff that it starts coming alive. You know what I mean? You start seeing all this stuff. You're like, wow, this is actually real. Because you know, as a writer, you know, you spend so much time, sort of, you know, in the quote-unquote cave, you know, writing and writing and revising, and you know, editing and everything else. And then finally, you know, when this when this creation, which you know didn't exist, you know, prior is finally done, you know, you and to see it actually come alive, it's it's it's great to see how this process all works. And you know, I mean, it's and see and just going through it, and you know, it's just it's just a phenomenal time to be a filmmaker right now, and you know, and it's a phenomenal. Actually, it's phenomenal time to pretty much be in, you know, in any and sort of any any facet, whether it's you know it's TV, the stage, film. So again, I you know, congratulations on that, and I know, you know. I can hear you know how ecstatic you are about this project.

Andrew Bloomenthal 43:04
It really, it really is like it. It it wakes you up in a way that it's like taking you to the next level. You know, writing something, especially when you know you've written something that's successful, and I feel like the allocation of this play into this script, it definitely has a great energy to it, but then when you start to involve other people, and it becomes this like cult of perfection where everyone's into it, it becomes just almost transcendental. And I think a lot of people fantasize about making the film, and. you may feel like you're not ready or you don't have the experience, but that's just that's just doubt in your own head. It's just there, there's it's indescribable, and I'm I just I can't wait to y'all action again, and you know, so I I agree. Thanks for the sentiment.

Dave Bullis 44:06
Oh yeah, I I know exactly how you how you feel, and you know I'm always always always always down to supports projects, and you know I I've been there myself, and you know it's been a gap since I've done anything where I've directed myself, and I know exactly what you mean when you just said I can't wait to do action again. And again, I wish you the best of luck, you know, with the project. And you know, you know, because we've been talking for you know roughly about 3035, minutes now. You know, so in closing, Andrew, is there anything that you wanted to say to sort of put a you know a period at the end of this entire conversation?

Andrew Bloomenthal 44:44
I just want to salute you for doing what you do. This was you know an unexpected outreach, and suddenly when I went from creative screenwriting, which is a wonderful publication, to to script mag script magazine. And they have such an incredible, you know, social outreach function that suddenly people are coming to me, and I've had a lot of opportunities to to speak up. And yours, your your your podcast, it just it was a no brainer for me. And this has been just like been part of my journey, and I and I'm flattered to be that you were my next step and allowed me to have this venue. So that's my final word: is just gratitude. Thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 45:37
Oh, again, it's my pleasure, Andrew. You are more than welcome, and you know, thank you very much for coming on the show. You know, you know, again, you know, I've read the some of your your articles through Script Mag, and they're phenomenal. And everyone, I will link to that in the show notes, by the way. And speaking of which, Andrew, where do people find you at online?

Andrew Bloomenthal 45:58
My I just have a website that's pretty much a crude online portfolio. It's just my name. It's andrewjbloomenthal.com, and Bloomenthal is B L O O M E N T H A L. So that'll have like everything categorized. You can tool around for a minute, Procrastinate and reach out to me if you, if the spirit moves you to do so.

Dave Bullis 46:27
Excellent, and everyone, I will link to Andrew's website in the show notes. And I found out, Andrew, you are on Twitter, but I, I found you have one tweet. But so if you have any

Andrew Bloomenthal 46:39
Terrified, terrified, terrified, terrible, I, I'm so allergic to like that kind of widespread like expression. I they made me do it. I I don't. It's like I'm trying to get comfortable with it, and because I sort of went to a new venue and they had a big social outreach program, I felt like it was important that I, you know, did my part as well, but I'm confident that now this podcast will be the subject of my second tweet. So, I mean, my theory is that, like, if you, for me, like, I'm, I don't know. Maybe this is a neurotic kind of thing, but if I only keep it to more milestone events, it'll be taken more seriously. My tweets. So, so how about that? How about I agree that you know the announcement of this podcast once it's ready will be tweet number two.

Dave Bullis 47:40
Oh well, thank you. I, you know, I, I, I will look forward to that because I followed you, and I, and I. If you ever need any Twitter tips, please let me know because anyone who listens to this podcast knows Twitter is like my bread and butter.

Andrew Bloomenthal 47:54
Oh, don't, yeah, man, don't, don't write a check your bank can't cash because I might call you on that and like literally, like email you with the most mundane questions about about tweeting culture, because I gotta I you know I I gotta embrace it and get over the fear. But

Dave Bullis 48:14
Please do.

Andrew Bloomenthal 48:15
All right, man.

Dave Bullis 48:16
I so I was actually approached one time to teach a class online about Twitter, and I said, you know, I I said, why me? And they they they gave me all these reasons. I said, no, thank you. I also was approached to teach a screenwriting course through the same website, and I also said, no, thank you, because I just think there's a there's there's better people out there. I mean, I you know, but but Twitter, I've pretty locked down. I mean, I so if you ever need anything screenwriting, you know I'm okay. But you know, and Andrew, I want to say thank you. But but Andrew, want to say thank you very much, and I look forward to seeing all your future work.

Andrew Bloomenthal 48:53
Thanks, man. It's been a pleasure. Good luck with everything you're doing, and keep up the great work.

Dave Bullis 48:59
Oh, thank you very much. Take care, Andrew.

Andrew Bloomenthal 49:00
Okay then. Bye bye.

Dave Bullis 49:01
Bye bye..

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BPS 490: He Waited 11 YEARS to Make His Movie—Then Jimmy Kimmel Changed Everything with Don Barris

September 24, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Hollywood has always sold aspiring filmmakers and performers the fantasy of being discovered. You write the perfect screenplay, perform at the right club, meet the right producer, and suddenly someone gives you permission to have a career. But Don Barris built his career around a completely different philosophy: if nobody is coming to discover you, create something they can’t ignore. Don is a comedian, filmmaker, producer, podcaster, longtime Comedy Store performer, and one of the creative forces behind the cult comedy Windy City Heat. His journey through Hollywood is a fascinating example of what can happen when creators stop waiting for traditional opportunities and start manufacturing their own.

Don’s path didn’t begin with a carefully designed filmmaking career. He was performing stand-up at the Comedy Store and gradually realized that nobody was going to magically walk into the room, recognize his talent, and put him in a movie. While hosting the Comedy Store’s potluck night, he noticed something interesting about audiences. Some of the biggest laughs weren’t coming from the polished comedians. They were coming from unusual personalities—the unpredictable characters who seemed completely unlike everyone else. Don began assembling some of those personalities into his own show, originally called Simply Don. Instead of waiting for Hollywood to create a vehicle for him, he started building one himself. The project developed for years before Jimmy Kimmel eventually noticed what Don and his collaborators were doing.

That opportunity took far longer than most aspiring filmmakers would expect. After leaving Michigan for California, Don made a commitment that he wasn’t going to quit. There were periods when his career was going nowhere. He was even kicked out of the Comedy Store and spent stretches of more than six months living in his car. But he continued performing and developing his material. Most importantly, he kept working on the strange comedic universe that would eventually become Windy City Heat. Don says it took 11 years from the beginning of that process until the movie was finally made. That’s the part of filmmaking careers audiences rarely see. They see the finished film, festival premiere, television appearance, or successful deal. They don’t see the decade of experimentation that came before it.

Jimmy Kimmel eventually recognized the potential in what Don had created and wanted to turn it into a movie. The result was Windy City Heat, one of the strangest experiments in comedy filmmaking. The premise essentially placed Perry Caravello inside a movie without fully understanding that the entire production was an elaborate prank built around him. Cameras could exist naturally because Perry believed he was making a legitimate film, while additional footage could be explained as behind-the-scenes coverage. Don describes the concept as the reverse of Andy Kaufman: instead of one performer playing a trick on the entire audience, practically the entire audience understands the joke while one person doesn’t. That concept turned Windy City Heat into something sitting somewhere between a feature comedy, mockumentary, hidden-camera experiment, and real-world performance.

From a filmmaking perspective, the production created an unusual challenge: many moments effectively had one take. When you’re shooting an elaborate prank involving someone who doesn’t know exactly what’s happening, you can’t simply reset the scene and ask everyone to perform it again. Don specifically remembers moments like the snack-table sequence because nobody knew precisely how Perry would react. If he suddenly realized something was wrong or refused to continue, the entire setup could collapse. That unpredictability became part of the movie’s energy. Instead of controlling every performance in the traditional filmmaking sense, the filmmakers created scenarios, positioned cameras, established the world, and then allowed reality to provide the reaction.

What happened after the movie was equally unexpected. Windy City Heat developed a passionate cult following, helped enormously by Jimmy Kimmel, who Don says would buy cases of the movie and give copies to people he thought would appreciate it. Eventually, filmmakers and performers began discovering it through word of mouth. Don recalls Quentin Tarantino enthusiastically discussing the movie and introducing Eli Roth to him backstage at Jimmy Kimmel Live. Jack Black also became a supporter of Don and the Big Three. For independent filmmakers, there’s an important lesson buried inside those stories. A movie doesn’t always find its audience during its initial release window. Some films slowly develop reputations because passionate viewers become their marketing department, repeatedly introducing the work to other people.

Don’s experience also demonstrates how much the filmmaking business has changed. He became increasingly interested in podcasting after watching creators such as Adam Carolla and Joe Rogan develop direct relationships with their audiences. To Don, the internet represented something filmmakers and performers previously didn’t have: their own distribution and promotional infrastructure. Instead of creating a pilot and hoping an executive chooses it, creators can make shows, podcasts, videos, and other projects themselves. Those projects can attract audiences, and those audiences can eventually support larger work. The principle is essentially the same one Don followed before Windy City Heat: don’t build your entire career around waiting for somebody else to say yes.

That mindset becomes especially relevant when Don talks about his plans to create his own entertainment network. He imagines an operation capable of producing podcasts, short-form videos, longer shows, pilots, and eventually movies. Because of his years working in comedy, he also has relationships with performers who might normally cost productions enormous amounts of money but are willing to participate because of those personal connections. That’s another practical filmmaking lesson that rarely receives enough attention. Independent production isn’t only about raising money. Relationships are production value. The people you’ve worked with, helped, entertained, and built trust with can sometimes give a small production access to talent and resources its budget could never otherwise afford.

The career of Don Barris isn’t a traditional roadmap into filmmaking, and that’s exactly why it’s useful. He didn’t follow the standard path from film school to assistant job to studio project. He created comedy, found unusual collaborators, developed a concept for years, connected with Jimmy Kimmel, helped turn that concept into a cult movie, and then continued experimenting with podcasts, pilots, live shows, and digital content. The larger filmmaking lesson is simple: make your own opportunities. Create the pilot. Shoot the short. Build the audience. Develop relationships. Keep producing work even when nobody appears interested. Sometimes the project that finally opens the door is the one you’ve been quietly building for eleven years.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
Joining me today is a man I've wanted to talk to since 2004. Joining me today is Don Barris. Don is 1/3 of the comedy trio The Big Three. Don starred and produced in one of the best movies and comedies of all time, Windy City Heat, which is actually one of the most elaborate pranks ever pulled. But we'll get into that later in the show. Don is currently the audience warm up for Jimmy Kimmel Live, and he hosts the Ding Dong Show, the longest running show at the world famous comedy store, every Monday night at 10 p.m. And if that wasn't enough, Don hosts his own podcast, Simply Don the Podcast, and we're also joined by his very lovely and talented producer of the Simply Don and the podcast, Mary Jane. Don and Mary Jane, I want to say welcome to the Dave Bullis Podcast.

Don Barris 2:36
Hello, Dave. Hello, that's Mary Jane. That's not me. The two people there. I don't know if you noticed. So what's up, Dave? You say you wanted to talk to me since 2004.

Dave Bullis 2:49
Yes,

Don Barris 2:50
You didn't see the Windy City Heat when it first came out, then, huh?

Dave Bullis 2:54
I saw it one night randomly, and I saw it. It started right when Perry knocked over the table, and ever since then I was like, "What? What is this? And I started watching it, and man, oh man, I was laughing my ass off, and I was tracking down a copy of that everywhere I could. So that's when I wanted to talk to you since then, Don.

Don Barris 3:15
Oh well, well, whatever you'd like to know, please.

Dave Bullis 3:20
So Don, I wanted to ask you. You know, I wanted to ask you about your background. You know, how did you get started in the film industry?

Don Barris 3:25
In the film industry, well, it it was kind of different than the film industry because I've always felt, especially now, I think that people live in a day and age where you don't have to wait for someone to just pull you out because that doesn't happen much. I started doing stand-up comedy, and I've been a regular at the the comedy store. And now, for about the last four years, except for a couple weeks here and there when I worked elsewhere, I've been the closing act at the comedy store every night. And so I was doing stand-up comedy, and I thought, well, this isn't working very well. This is one of those things that nobody's coming over to see me, pick me out, put me in a movie, to do whatever. So I thought, well, I'll make my own break. And one of the things that I saw at the time, the main thing that I did was host the comedy store potluck every week, and the comedy store potluck is just like new comics guys trying to get into the the arena of doing standup comedy. And I'll tell you something: it's very hard. And there are people that go there, and they will go out and try to go to all these potluck shows all over town, and they'll do it for 20 years and never get any money out of it. So it's kind of a sad thing, but it's a little group, and I I used to host the comedy stores potluck night. And I showcased with the owner Mid Sea Shore, so she'd showcase acts and all that, and I got to watch her. And the one thing that I noticed, the bigger laughs didn't come from the people that were somewhat good that had just started out. the The big laughs came from the guys that were out of their mind and just these characters. So I thought I'd put a show together, and that show it was originally called Simply Don. And what I did is I took some of the more colorful acts that I saw around the comedy store, and I put them together in one show. And then I had Mole come and play a character in it. Well, we worked on that for seven years, so it took a long time before anybody really noticed. And that person that noticed was Jimmy Kimmel. He wanted to do something with us at the time. He had just gotten the show Win Benstein's Money. I I knew him a little bit from working on the morning show out here in Los Angeles at K Rock, and so I didn't know him that well. But he said, "I want to make a movie out of this. About four years later, we got it done, and it's kind of cool because a lot of people really loved it. So, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Dave Bullis 6:23
Oh, and that movie. When you see the heat, correct on. I'm sorry about you.

Don Barris 6:26
Yes. No. No. You're not interrupting me. I just, you know, whenever I just thought I'd give you a quick background. So that's where I got into it. I didn't start out wanting to make a movie. I just wanted to do something else, and we made that film.

Dave Bullis 6:41
I mean, and that movie has become such a cult classic as well. I'm always interested in hearing about these stories, Don, which is why I asked you about your background because I know because you grew up in in in Michigan in Saginaw Township, and so what was the impetus for you to move from Saginaw Township out to L.A.

Don Barris 6:58
Well, I'll tell you something. If you look at a small town in the Midwest, I was always a little bit different. As a guy that became my manager out here, he said, "You never lived under the rules because, as most comics do, they always are thinking outside the box, and they sometimes struggle in school. And I know I did. I know I was school was very difficult for me. I'm talking about college because I just couldn't conceptualize how to remember all this stuff that I didn't care about, and I was more into doing screwy things. I remember having a creative writing class, and I got to just go into this crazy world. And in Michigan, people don't look at you kind of the same because, as a comic that I knew once said, people look at someone trying to do stand-up comedy is like somebody that goes to the moon and walks on the moon. They're both so far fetched for Sony admission because not many people make it. It's such a far fetched tale that you know, and I just couldn't live under that type of situation where I was kind of an oddball. I used to think, my God, what am I? What is this all about? And out here, when I came to California, made the big move, I realized, wow, this is something where I fit in a little bit better. So,

Dave Bullis 8:34
And so, literally, Don, you just packed up and moved. I mean, was there any specific like incident that just caused you to say, you know what? I'm just going to bite the bullet, and I'm moving out to L.A.

Don Barris 8:44
Not really. I just I was look looking for different things. I I wasn't enjoying my life out there. There was you know I was making money because I used to DJ in Michigan. I do uh like like fraternity parties and weddings and things like that, and I started a little business, so I was making money, but I just didn't like what I was doing. And I thought, well, you know what? I'm young enough. I'm gonna go out to California. I have no real commitments here. I'll go out there and just take a chance. And when I came out here, I said, well, this is my last chance. No matter what, I will not quit. And I mean, there were times, like in the first year, I got into a little trouble with other comics because I was kind of a cocky guy, and you know, these older comics, well-established comics, didn't like some young cocky guy coming out there and saying, "I'm after you, man. I'm going to take your spots. People didn't like that. They didn't realize that, but it was too cocky. So there's a few times that you know, I eventually got kicked out of the comedy store. I didn't know what to do. I worked at a strip club, but I made a deal to myself that I would never take a job that didn't have a camera in my face or a microphone in my hand. So I actually got to the point where, like two separate times, I lived in my car for like period of over six months, but I said, "There's no way I'm going to give up. No way. I mean, and everything that I've done has taken forever to do. It took 11 years to finally get the movie made from when I started it until we finally made it. 11 years, but I just said I'm not. I mean, I I sometimes would think about it because when I first moved out here, I was still of that college, high school way of judging time. Like every four years, you know, you you move on to the next step, and I would say, wow, somebody when they when first grade came out here, and it took that. They graduated high school by the time I got it done, but they were in first grade when I first came out here or first started the whole thing.

Dave Bullis 11:11
I think you know that's a really amazing story, Don, because you know I I think a lot of people hear about you know overnight successes, and I forget who actually said this, but this person said there is no such thing as an overnight success because they don't. Because when people you know see overnight successes, quote unquote, they really don't see all the years and and and the struggles and everything they went through, and you know to all of a sudden either when it's selling a script or getting casted in a movie or stuff like that. I completely you know get where you're coming from about the whole time thing. Just, I think a lot of people sort of sort of misconstrued that, if you know what I mean.

Don Barris 11:48
Right. Oh, absolutely. And I think that if you want to take a gamble and do something like that, it's going to take you a long time. You know, even great comics takes them a long time to kind of understand how to play the crowd, how to present yourself, and I think that anybody who ever wants it, who wants to come out and try and make it a show business, because in some parts of the country, I don't know if Philadelphia is, it's much bigger city than I came from, but I don't know how their view of things are, but for most people, it's such a far-fetched dream to even try to get it in show business.

Dave Bullis 12:29
We mostly Don. We mostly hate life in Philadelphia and hate everybody else too. So it's a lot of bleakness. A lot of you know we we we worship fictitious sports athletes like Rocky Balboa,

Don Barris 12:43
Right! You boo Santa Claus. It shows your hatred towards mankind at an Eagles game. So I understand a little bit of Philly, but it's it's a tough, tough gig, and anybody who ever wants to try to do it, the best thing, you know, I'm still far from where I want to be, but I've never given up. We have we completed an unbelievably funny pilot with the big three, and there's people that want to buy it. We were actually they wanted to give us money to make a pilot because so many times, you know, movies like that go away. But thank God, Jimmy Kimmel produced the whole thing because all Jimmy used to-he would constantly buy cases of the movie Windy City Heat, and anybody he thought would like it, he turned on to by giving a copy, made T-shirts, would give people just anything. I mean, so many huge celebrities came up, you know, to talk about how great the film was, why it was great, you know, ranging from Quentin Tarantino, who literally went out of his mind for it. But it was very good for me because at the time I was struggling, my claim to fame was doing the road with dice clay. But because of this movie, you know, Jimmy Kimmel was the producer of it, and thank God he came around. And when we finally got it, he was nice enough to keep me working ever since he kind of met me, so he got me some. He got me an audience warm-up gig on when Ben Stein's Money. Then that turned into four years of working on the Man Show, and then after that, he got Jimmy Kimmelage. I've worked in an industry that if you work 10 weeks a year, you're doing well, I'm working 40 some weeks a year on a TV show. So he's made he put me in a position financially. He's taking very good care of me. So it's it's a it's a funny thing. But you know, all you have to do is have enough money out here to keep a roof over your head. If you can make ends meet somehow, you can then pursue whatever you want. And with that, you know, I realized what a lucky break I had. And in that lucky break, I wanted to make sure I didn't blow it. So I've I have three podcasts I've made. We we finished a pilot that we've been trying to sell, which we could. We just need one person to say, "Hey, go ahead, do it. So it's it's a very funny, funny business, and it takes a lot, and it takes a lot out of you. But

Dave Bullis 15:40
I actually tweeted at Netflix one time, I because they were actually going. That's when one of their buying binges, the old Canadian show Kenny versus Spenny, actually got all their fans to tweet at Netflix. Hey, you should pick us up for another season because they haven't been on the air in almost 10 years. And I was actually tweeting at Netflix like the Big Three is not only hilarious, but they already have a built-in fan base, just like Kenny versus Spenny. And the reason I tweeted them was I was actually applying for a job with them at the same time to be like it was something to do with creative content. So that was going to be one of my proposals, by the way, was to to pick up both those shows because I mean, honestly, Don, I mean, when you see the Heat again, like I like I said in the intro is one of my favorite movies of all time. It's absolutely hilarious, and all these celebrities have heard about it too. You know, Dave Chappelle, I think, was into it. Quentin Tarantino, like you said, and didn't didn't Tarantino? Didn't he come by one of the Ding Dong Show performances one time?

Don Barris 16:36
He he didn't he came by and saw the ding dong show, but he was at the comedy store, and he mainly saw my band and all that stuff. But I bring the I brought the cast on stage, and I was lucky enough to say that when he was there, he was pounding his fist on the table, laughing, and it was like, oh my god! And a real quick story. Well, I'm trying to think. Hostel. Remember that hostel movie? Who's the guy that directed that?

Dave Bullis 17:11
Eli Roth.

Don Barris 17:12
Eli Roth. Well, I mean, I'm still a kid from Saginaw, Michigan. I mean, you know, and you don't see much about stars, so I'm anybody that's a star. I'm just in complete awe. So anyway, one night at Jimmy Kimmel, he had on Eli Roth when they were promoting Hostel, and he brought out you know Quentin Tarantino to help push it a little bit. So I'm the audience warm-up for Kimmel, so I'm out there doing my thing. And Jimmy came up and he says, "Hey, there's two guys that want to talk to you. And I walk behind Eli Roth and Quentin Tarantino, and he, Quentin Tarantino, this is what I walked in on. See, I told you, you you come to Jimmy Kimmel, you're gonna meet down Bears. You can ask any question about when you see the Heat, and I mean, I I'm in like in awe. I it was like, what in the hell is happening? And then Mary Jane was with me one night. What was that? It was.

Mary Jane 18:11
Do you want me to tell the story?

Don Barris 18:12
Sure. Do you want? Go ahead.

Mary Jane 18:14
So, Don and I went to a release party. What was it for for Adam Crola's boxer movie, or no, the construction movie, one of his movies around the time of the hostel, and you know when I go to these things with Don, I just kind of like you never know where you're gonna go or where where your place is. You know, you just kind of it's all in the busy to do of it, and so I'm following Don. Don's, you know, talking to to his coworkers and and just whatever is happening, it's kind of unplanned. And all of a sudden, I'm getting chased down because I'm behind Don by Eli Roth, just just to to say hi and to talk about all this stuff, so then I'm I'm in the position to where I'm not really sure what's going on, but Eli Ross is just so excited about Windy City Heat and dawn and what's going on and all that. So that that was the fun little little experience. Yeah, I believe that was that the Arc Light Hollywood. So it was kind of a weird little upper private bar type of release party.

Dave Bullis 19:25
Well, that's absolutely amazing. That is that is so amazing now that that that these people are chasing you down, Don.

Don Barris 19:33
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something. It wasn't like you know I wish you he was chasing me down. Hey, why don't you do something with me? He just you know. But who knows? I mean, yeah, I you you obviously know who Jack Black is.

Dave Bullis 19:47
Yeah,

Don Barris 19:48
Jack Black can us do his comedy. He has a yearly comedy comedy music.

Dave Bullis 19:57
Yeah, the Festival Supreme.

Mary Jane 20:07
Yeah,

Don Barris 20:07
Festival Supreme. And this year, he was just you know he was playing with us there. He he was going to come up with us on stage, but he had to be up with Amy Kohler. They had something worked out because we're going to be on at the same time. But I mean, he is such a good guy and a fan of this, and so we got to hang out with him a little bit all around there. And it was just every time we do something and somebody else comes around, it's just like my God, I'm just this guy from Saginaw Township, Michigan, and I did something that these people like. Very, very cool.

Dave Bullis 20:49
I know we've been talking about the movie. So, just for the listeners who haven't heard of it, Windy City Heat was a film. It was produced by Jimmy Kimmel. It was released on Comedy Central, and then you know it became a cult classic because, like you said, Don. You know, Jimmy would buy you know the cases of DVDs. You know, I found it one night randomly on Comedy Central, and when the DVD first came out, I actually bought that. I bought. I made sure that I could find this, and now whenever I see a DVD of it, I actually always make sure to buy it, and then I usually just give it out to somebody because that I want them and like I've always said to people, I'm jealous of them because they get to see it for the first time. They get to experience it for the first time. Yeah, because see,

Don Barris 21:33
You know who said that exact thing? Do you know who Gavin Mcinnes is?

Dave Bullis 21:37
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Don Barris 21:38
He's the guy that started Vine Magazine. He said the same vice. Excuse me, vice. But that's exactly what he said. That he gets envious of people that are about to discover this. So those words are pretty heavy and all that. But boy, thank you for saying that. Thank you for doing it.

Dave Bullis 21:56
Oh, my pleasure, Don. I put the movie on for a group of people one time, and there was one person who was a little hesitant because because he asked me what it was, and and I said I don't want to give too much away, so I'll tell you this: it's an elaborate prank on one guy, and he started to watch it, and by the end he he was like, I got to order my own copy off Amazon. I I have to order this movie. So, you know, just for those who listen who haven't heard of it yet. Windy City Heat is a movie within a movie that's a prank on one of the other members of the Big Three, Scary Perry Caramello, and and

Mary Jane 22:34
Wait, I thought it was Percy Caravelli.

Dave Bullis 22:37
Oh, Percy! I'm sorry, Mary Jane. It's my Philly accent.

Don Barris 22:40
What some people say Perry Caravello. I think I remember him saying that. That's how he likes to pronounce. But there are various ways of saying his name.

Mary Jane 22:48
Or Pear Bear, and the spelling is K A R.

Don Barris 22:51
Now let him figure it out. Okay, sorry. Okay, so go on with what you're saying about him.

Dave Bullis 22:56
He's the he's the king of Friday night comedy. So he is the you know one of the other members of the big three, and of course, there's Walter and Moleninsky. So Don, Mole, and Perry are the big three, and they go are, and the movie opens with Don and and and Perry on the way to an audition, and you know, the whole movie is a movie. It's it's almost like a real life Truman show, Don, and that that's that's another way I describe it because yeah, your bit it is just you know it's so well done. It's it's it's again everyone listening, it's an elaborate prank on Perry. So everyone else is in on it. There's hidden cameras everywhere, and they explain that the cameras you know in his face are either a a movie camera because they are you know filming this you know faux movie, or b it's a behind the scenes type deal, and it is absolutely brilliant from start to finish, and you know I again Don I know you probably hear hear it a lot, but it is it is absolutely freaking hilarious, and um and I mean I mean, just just you know, making the move, you know, making that, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, what was your one of your favorite things to actually film about Wednesday City Heat?

Don Barris 24:09
That I what? I'm sorry.

Mary Jane 24:10
Favorite thing that

Dave Bullis 24:12
Yeah, yeah. What was one of your favorite things to film during Windy City Heat?

Don Barris 24:16
Well, I'll tell you something. You know, it's like you have one take to do this, and we thought of some things to do, and that's so we had some kind of guys on. But I think when things worked, I think that you know the the snack table, the you know where mole knocks or peri knocked over the table. I think because that works so well, and you don't know what's going to happen. I mean, this guy could like, oh, this is bullshit. He never did, and I think that's the amazing thing. And when you look at this, but by the time we did that movie, we. Had been doing it for 11 years, and we did a lot of things, and we put a lot of scenarios in there. They're all things that we have that will eventually come out where people can see it. By the way, have you heard the the podcast? We did four years of a big three podcast.

Dave Bullis 25:18
I listen to every single episode, Don.

Don Barris 25:20
Good, yeah. See, that's I. You know, it's unfortunate the movie doesn't really explain what a character he really is. But you listen to four years of the podcast, and you can't even get a better idea. We, like I said, we put together a very cool. Made a couple episodes that we wanted to sell. IFC wanted to give us, you know, a budget to create a pilot for them. You know, instead I brought the money in myself, and so we're just trying to sell that. Hopefully, we can. But it's it's a it's a whole real world. The when Jimmy Kimmel came to me, I knew that he kind of understood when he came with with the thought. This is kind of like the opposite of Andy Kaufman, where in Andy Kaufman he was playing a trick on the world and he stuck to it. In this, it's the opposite because in this, everybody knows what's going to happen to Perry, just he doesn't. So it's like the world is in a prank on one person.

Dave Bullis 26:34
And you know, you talked about the podcast. I view the podcast as a sequel to Windy City Heat, because yeah, because the the the reason is I and you actually mentioned this yourself is it actually builds upon Perry the character. I mean, literally some of the stuff that has come out about Perry. I mean, it is just it's almost like one of those Russian nesting dolls. Like you know, there's a bigger doll, and then you you take that apart, and there's another doll, and you just keep going down, and it's almost like you're you're trying to to dissect Perry to it's like what is the core of this guy, you know, because because there's two things I'm always fascinated with, Don, and that is practical jokes and guys who live on the fringe of society, and Perry is both wrapped into one, and he's just such an interesting guy. And

Don Barris 27:27
Oh, you know, if I could throw this in there,

Dave Bullis 27:30
Oh sure, absolutely.

Don Barris 27:30
Interesting part comes in, but there's a lot of people their first thoughts. Wow, they've got a make-believe world around this poor son of a bitch. Well, two things come up, and as I was saying before, I learned about the world of potluck comedy people. They would do anything to be seen. They want fame. In the movie, Perry talks about he doesn't want to be a movie star. He just wants to be famous, and in that, that's what he got because that's all he cares about. He walks around, and if somebody doesn't know the movie Windy City Heat right now, oh come on, everybody knows that movie. His ego's unbelievable. He's a racist, homophobic pig, misogynistic. He's just an animal to women. There's a girl that came back to town that we've known for quite a while. All right, here. Talk.

Mary Jane 28:30
I'm not interrupting. Go ahead.

Don Barris 28:32
And say something. Go ahead.

Mary Jane 28:33
No, wait till after you go.

Don Barris 28:35
So there's a girl that came to town that kind of did this before. She needed a ride places. She came from Chicago, and he. They went over to her house. He went to the bathroom, came out with his pants off and a heart on. You can't not hate this person. So

Dave Bullis 28:57
That is a classy move, Don.

Don Barris 28:59
Oh yeah, it's he at least lets them know what he's into. There's no question about that. So I think that we can get away with it in the aspect of putting it together. He does gain. He gains exactly what he wants. But he's a horrible person, has no friends whatsoever, and any friend he gets, he just automatically turns up. So,

Dave Bullis 29:27
You know, you know that was funny because when when Facebook first came around, I saw Perry was on there, and I legitimately done dead serious. I sent him a very nice message, and I just said how big of a fan I was of Winnie City Heat. I I didn't tell him anything. I wasn't you know making fun of him or anything. I just said I'm a very big fan of Winnie City Heat. You know I said you know I I really hope the best happens to the big three. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And he sent me back a Facebook message, basically telling me to go to hell, and I was a loser.

Don Barris 30:11
Yeah, he he does that, and then he tried selling T-shirts. I think it he got them for four bucks, and he saw them for 35, and some guy sent him a letter. Hey, you sent me the wrong shirt and it's way too small. His response that was tough shit.

Mary Jane 30:33
Yeah, I believe that was the guy ordered an extra large and he sent him a medium. He felt that that was the closest size he had, but

Don Barris 30:40
That's all he had left, and then this doesn't fit me. Overpaying for a damn T-shirt, and then he goes through all that tough shit. So he's a class act, and you learn to hate him immediately. There's been many people that will actually say, "Wow, I I always felt sorry for this guy. Then he did this to me. Nova should feel sorry for him because number one, he gets exactly what he wants out of it. Exactly, I granted his wish.

Mary Jane 31:09
Can you tell him what happened the other day?

Don Barris 31:11
Yes.

Mary Jane 31:11
So just just the other day, I'm minding my own business. You know, haven't had contact with Perry since, you know, the the podcast or the pilot or whatnot, and I look at my phone, a private message from Perry calling me an unprofessional bitch. So I open up the message and I see that the last communication I had with him was 2012, and it was I believe the time that Mole and Perry surprised Don in one of the podcasts back in 2012, and so Perry accidentally he saw the correspondence from 2012 and thought it was yesterday or no the day before yesterday, and so the the full message was, I don't want to have anything to do with you guys. And then he called me an unprofessional bitch. And less than a minute later, he said, "I'm sorry, that was an old message, and and that was it, literally out of nowhere, just just for no reason, you know.

Don Barris 32:22
I mean, to to add more freaking Nick to him, when we we made a a series of stuff, and one of the things that we went out there and did was, we have all this stuff that we recorded with him, and during one interview, he was talking about the fact he got kicked off the school grounds because every day he worked for his cousin's print shop, and he would go and eat his lunch at this school so he could watch the girls. And they eventually came up and they told him, "Hey, you can't be here, and he fought it, and there's no way he thought it was wrong. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. I do nothing. I just eat my lunch and stare at girls. He is. He has no social etiquette at all. Terrible person.

Mary Jane 33:17
And just to complete that story, Perry was like over 30.

Don Barris 33:20
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 33:23
Because I imagine you know with with the story Mary Jane told about him on Facebook, I imagine Perry just sitting in in that dust bowl apartment of his, and just on Facebook or or Twitter constantly, just sort of stalking random people. That and that's how I sort of think he he lives his life.

Mary Jane 33:44
Absolutely, and I'm pretty sure I was called an unprofessional bitch because literally the night before he had gone out with the fans and exposed himself to that woman. So I think that in his mind he was like thinking that he was going to get in trouble or going to get like, oh boy, I did something. I might. They're going to call me on it, and so out of nowhere, he he thinks that I'm scolding him, and and replies to a message from 2012.

Dave Bullis 34:18
That is that is classic Perry, and you know to go on to the you know you were talking about the strong shirt size. I'm actually wearing a Scary Perry skateboard shirt right now. Wow! Because you know, like you said, Don, you kind of feel like you should throw him a bone. I remember I actually ordered this shirt. I was like, that is nowhere near anywhere what he charges for it. It's actually one of my one of the cheaper shirts that I actually have. I have shirts that cost like half as much that are much much higher quality. And then I made the mistake, Don, of of trying to buy one of his skateboards, and and the skateboard came came in for Christmas this past Christmas. December 2015, the board was damaged, and it wasn't signed at all. And I had to call Perry's manager to get him to, and he just sent me some stickers. He's like, just use these to cover up the damage, because Perry was gonna send me a signed eight by 10, but then he said, and I quote, "Fuck him. He doesn't deserve anything.

Don Barris 35:20
Yeah, customer care in his store is not that good. I'll be the first to admit that. Oh, he's just such a pig, such a pig.

Dave Bullis 35:31
And when when you hear of all these stories, it just adds to to Windy City Heat, and it adds to the podcast because like the layers on this guy, at sometimes he just he he almost looks like a a shrunken Steven Seagal because he you know he's got this this weird trash bag leather jacket on he's got like he he almost looks like Ben Franklin too at some point and he's got this big huge fanny pack on that is it looks like a book bag that's strapped around his waist and it's just you look at this guy and you're like, is this guy for real? Like he stands out like a sore thumb, even in like the even in like the craziest districts. He kind of reminds me in a way of of like, well, I would give him too much credit. I was gonna say like somebody like Tommy Wassow, somebody who's so oblivious, but I think Tommy Wassow is more talented than Perry.

Mary Jane 36:21
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 36:26
You know, so Don, is is there any any talk of of you know when you see the Heat maybe coming out on Blu-ray or even on on on demand or any time? Because I know there was a Netflix a petition I started by the big three fans to get it carried on Netflix, but I just know-is there anything else to to go forward with it?

Mary Jane 36:45
Well, I can answer that question. Basically, with Windy City Heat, Paramount owns it. So Paramount's the one that put it on DVD. Paramount's the one that put it on Netflix. I believe still Instinct. I mean, the disc, the where you send the disc only, not instant queue. And so, to the best of my knowledge, Paramount would have to make the decision to put it on Blu-ray, and or wherever else Windy City Heat could go. I don't think Don or even Jimmy really can do anything without Paramount and their system of deciding what happens with their stuff.

Don Barris 37:28
Yeah, it probably won't be released on Blue Wake, but a lot of people right now are trying to sign petitions.

Mary Jane 37:35
Yeah, he mentioned that. Yeah,

Don Barris 37:36
And yeah, and so there's a group of people that are trying to do that, and it's funny because a while back at the common store, there's a guy that I know that owns this big, like this multi-multi millionaire lives in Vegas and made his money from doing gambling magazines. Well, one night he was with the guy that was in charge of deciding what went on Netflix, and so I talked to him about that, and he was like, "Yeah, I'll definitely do this. I'll do that, you know. Never did.

Mary Jane 38:11
Well, I think that that Comedy Central has a deal with Paramount, and wherever I've seen, you know, like I don't know if this is good to say, but that Kmart and then whatever it turned into, they had all the Comedy Central shows on DVD for like a really good price. And I know that when it was happening, fans from all over America were like, "I just bought 10, 10 Windy City heats. I just bought, you know, 20. Like the the people were going in there and just buying as many as humanly possible. And when I went to look, I realized that it was literally all the Comedy Central ones in a bulk package, the Paramount. So it kind of Windy City Heat lumped in that that purchase selling situation,

Dave Bullis 39:03
I saw some of them too. The I know exactly what you're talking about too, Mary Jane, because I I saw a couple of those at the local big lots. Yeah, yeah, that's where I would buy them too, and I would that's where I was. You know, I would just try to give them out. You know, I would buy them whenever I could. They were like three or $5. I would just hand them out because I know a friend of mine. You know, he like I was telling Don when he saw it on on when I showed him my copy. He actually just went on Amazon and bought that one. You know, everyone, I'm going to link to a show notes, but in the show notes, by the way, where you can actually purchase Winnie City Heat through you know whether it's through Amazon or wherever. But honestly, this is one of those movies where if I had made a list of every every movie people should see before they die. Windy City Heat is definitely on there.

Don Barris 39:46
Wow. Well, so you know, I'll tell you something. The only unfortunate thing, yeah, I get that. If but you know what, you can also, I think they put it on YouTube. Look under Windy City Heat. I think it's on YouTube. So if somebody just wants to watch it. You can get it there, but I mean, you should tell people to listen to the podcast.

Mary Jane 40:18
Oh yes, do you remember most recently on Simply Dawn Drop podcast episode 100 actually was Perry with Don.

Don Barris 40:30
If you want to listen all those, go to simplydontheonthepodcastnetwork.com. We've got a few things out there. We do have the store. We're we're updating all this stuff because there could be some things that are happening even with the big three. So, but it's the big three podcast. What is it?

Mary Jane 40:48
thebigtreepodcast.com.

Don Barris 40:51
No, podcast network.

Mary Jane 40:54
Oh, simplydonthepodcastnetworkstore.com.

Don Barris 40:58
No, the network. Oh, jeez, it's simplydonthepodcastnetwork.com. Go there and there's a few different things. You go to the store and all that kind of stuff. So,

Dave Bullis 41:11
And I want to make the make sure to link to all that in the show notes as well. To even to what Don was saying with Winnie City Heat on YouTube, you know, I wanted to ask you know Don, I know, I mean, time is flying by here, Don. I know you have to go soon, but you know, I know you started your own podcast, which is simply done the podcast. You know, what was sort of your impetus to start that? Because I know, you know, you you you you ended the big. Well, I'm sorry, the the big three podcast ended, but I mean, I know you probably wanted to start your own podcast. But was there any real reason why you wanted to start your own brand?

Don Barris 41:41
Because I had seen what became of Joe Logan's network, and I saw Adam Carolla and all those guys. They started when this thing of the podcast first happened, and they got huge, huge numbers because you know they were kind of known, and like here was a way to listen to these guys. It wasn't out there that much. Now there's so many podcasts, it's really tough to get a share of the market. Who who cares? When they started, there was nothing else. So all these guys got these huge numbers, and they kept them. And I got a chance because the Big Three podcast was first on Ace Broadcast, which is Adam Carolla, and Red Band started. Who worked with Joe Rogan started Death Squad, and all the people that came out of Death Squad, you know, they have a podcast, and they started getting huge numbers of their own because they were part of the death squad network, and bottom line is, it's the new way to promote yourself. You can promote anything, you know. Joe Rogan's almost got the perfect life because what he does is like he does

Mary Jane 42:58
The UFC.

Don Barris 42:59
UFC, he calls those matches. You know, he books a someplace in that town for him to do stand-up comedy. Tickets sell out in minutes because he just goes on his podcast network, and he has so many people that listen on a daily basis. He just pushes it, and I realize that's the wave of the future. I mean, you have to get some sort of market in there, and if you're doing show business stuff, because now we live in the day and age, you can actually make your own pilot. You can make your own series, and if it's set up right, you can make money because you can have your own network, and I, you know, and that way you don't have to talk to anybody. You don't have to do anything. No one has to select you. They still can if they have a role in a movie for you. Oh yeah, here here's a guy. He'd be perfect for the guy stand. Boom, he's in the movie. Ah, but the rest yourself being able to do stand up and doing all that kind of crap, you can go out there and promote the hell out of yourself, and that's why you go on other podcasts. So, I'm sorry.

Dave Bullis 44:13
Oh no, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry, Don.

Don Barris 44:15
No, no, no. Continue.

Dave Bullis 44:16
Well, I was going to say I I agree with you, you know, immensely because you know that that's something that I found out too is you know there there is a crowded podcast market you know now there's a crowded film you know filmmaking market and somebody sent me when I first started this podcast somebody sent me an article called 1000 true fans and basically it was just about if you can cultivate 1000 true fans you can make a career just off those 1000 fans, whether it's setting up a Patreon, whether it's you know like you said with Joe Rogan and going to see stand up, whether it's a YouTube channel, if you can do it right, he said you know this whole thing is you could you could base an entire career off those 1000 fans.

Don Barris 44:56
Well, it's almost like a pyramid scheme because it's like. Hey, I'm doing your show, you know. I don't know what kind of people listen to you. What happens, you know? But that's what you got to do. You got to do all these other shows. And so, if you have a market share, let's say you have 1000 people that listen every time that you put a podcast on, those are probably 1000 people that don't know who I am, or most of your guests, and you turn them on to that. Well, the more of these podcasts you do, the better. Like I said, Death Squad. What I saw, like, wow, this is how it's done. I saw Adam Carolla. This is how it's done, and you watch those people, and I was close enough. You know, I knew the guy that kind of was the top guy over with Adam Carolla, a guy by the name of Donny Mizrahi. He no longer is part of it, but he brought me onto the network, gave me a chance, and I just kind of absorbed everything there. But I knew because of Red Band what he was doing. Do you know who Red bandas, do you know Devil? Yeah, so those guys are very successful, you know, and they make a lot of money selling T-shirts. They make a lot of money doing a lot of stuff. So I thought that you know all these podcasts can do is help you. So now I officially have three, and you know the ding dong show, which is which was kind of basically how Perry started my world, because I had this kind of like a bizarre show with like 678, comments that came on every time I'd have a show, and one of them was Perry. You know, I started that way, and so then I thought, well, I can still do that. I can just have it without Perry, and have Perry a separate show.

Dave Bullis 46:45
And this kind of ties into with a question, Don, from a from one of the fans. Basically, they can imagine that Perry that Perry is probably like insane to deal with. I'm sure I can't get through the question, Don, without laughing. So I'm sure you're insane

Don Barris 47:03
If you know Perry, you can understand he is the worst person, and just has no matter what you do for the guy, it's never enough. It's never enough, and I can't tell you how many times I just wanted to punch the fuck out of him. Excuse me, I don't know if you usually, but I mean, he is such a bad guy, and he does things that hurt him. But he does things. He now is at the point where he he knows if he wants to get me upset, he knows he can just like not do something the day of the show, or come you know tired or coming a bad mood. Oh, he's just such a bad guy. So go on. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 47:50
It's because one of the one of the questions was, how does Don manage dealing with all of let's say the quote unquote strong personalities between the Ding Dong show and Perry Caravello.

Don Barris 48:02
Who else?

Dave Bullis 48:04
This I think it was Chris. I forget who it was actually right now.

Don Barris 48:10
Well, Chris, that's a great question.

Dave Bullis 48:12
Oh, it's Chris Dorm. Sorry, it's Chris Dorm. So, how does the strong personalities from the Ding Dong Show and Percy Caramelli dealing with the craziness has to be very tough. How does Don deal?

Don Barris 48:24
Well, I'll be very honest with you. It's gotten to the point now I can't. And thank God for Mary Jane because she is now the go-between on everything. And I don't know how she does it because I went through years. Mary Jane, how do you go through it.

Mary Jane 48:41
Well, you know, there's in life. I I put it this way. There's there's facts, and there's things that you can rely on, and then there's those wildcards. And so you know, I know the end goal, and I know the the you know pieces of the structure that don't move, and the rest just kind of can be thrown into a blender, and as long as everything the basics get covered, you know the rest. And like with you know with with the Ding Dong cast, I I do get get a lot of crazy calls and crazy messages, and you know, once you get to know each personality, you can kind of figure out what what their motivation is, and and ways to you know shield them from things that would be stressful in their life that wouldn't necessarily stress out. Like if if you work in a in in any other environment where you know okay this person likes this better than that person, you know, and you just kind of like a manager would would mediate between you know the tasks that need to be done and you know what personalities or or job titles would would likely do it best. And and with Perry, there there really is no logic. You never know how bad of an attitude he's going to have, or how much he's going to try to ruin the ultimate goal.

Don Barris 50:23
He, he. I think the worst thing about Perry is, he now, as I started to explain, understands that if he does this, it's going to piss me off. And just to piss me off, he'll do that, and that usually involves him not coming to a big show, you know, because there's so many times we had a public access shows where I I worked with Perry at the comedy store. Then there were problems at the comedy store, so I took Perry on this public access show because you always have to have a carrot in front of Perry's face that he's always chasing, and so he would purposely try to ruin shows, and it was a lot of yelling and screaming till the last minute. It's it's torture, but you know people could say, "Well, you torture him. Yeah, so I guess it's it's fair.

Dave Bullis 51:19
You know, Don, as you know, getting close to to closing, I just want to tell a really quick story. I remember when you guys were doing the Festival Supreme, Perry was on one of your podcasts, and I can't remember if it was it was the Big Three podcast or simply Don, but he started to badmouth Jack Black, yeah, and he said how shallow Hal sucks, and he wanted a contract, and that that that that he was ripping you guys off. And again, Perry always says he's getting ripped off too, which I always find hilarious.

Don Barris 51:49
Yeah, well, I'll tell you something interesting about that. The main reason we did it is because I wanted to get that soundbite. Because when we went to the festival supreme, we I hear we're on the main stage, same stage as the Antwerp. Are you familiar with that band, De Antword?

Dave Bullis 52:08
Yes.

Don Barris 52:09
Yeah. So I mean, they're a huge band, getting bigger and bigger. So I thought, oh my God, there's gonna be so many people that don't know us. In a way, thank goodness, it was just a lot of big three fans of that. But what we did is, you know you come out you you say the same kind of phony stuff all day. Hey, I just want to thank Jack Black for biting us down here. So Mole does that, and then I said, "You can say, and he goes up there. I just want to thank Jack Black. I ripped the mic from. I said, "Well, you didn't say that on our podcast the other day, and then we played that. Jack Black thought that was the funniest thing ever. I saw him after that. He goes, "I it just killed me, and I do know that we had the guys that worked the sound booth and all that laughing. So it was beyond just getting the audience to laugh. I think it was really kind of like what the fuck is going on here? Type of moments. So that was kind of the story there.

Dave Bullis 53:07
I've never actually gotten to meet Perry, and that is on my bucket list. I know as we, you know, my experiences with them, but but but it's stuff like that, Don, where I just it's almost like it's almost like this weird, odd celebrity that you're like, man, he could he could just like disappear at any moment. I should try to meet him before he just dis vanishes, and that's the way I kind of look at Perry. I I I I want to come out at some point to just meet him. But again, like like Gavin once said, you're afraid you're gonna fuck it up, but you know when you meet him. You're afraid. You don't want to. You don't want to touch the magic. If you know what I mean.

Don Barris 53:44
Well, Gavin pointed out a lot of things because Gavin became the fan immediately, and just, just all he would do is tell everybody in the world, like you. I'll tell you, there's more people because of people like you guys that saw it and then just told everybody that they knew. That's the way this thing becomes somewhat popular, and that's the reason you know the the movie came out in 2003, and still, instead of becoming small, it's becoming bigger and bigger, and the fan base is growing because when somebody turns it on to somebody else. They find it for the first time. Then, so it's I. We still once in a while get big three podcasts that get into the top 200 of the iTunes. They get into the top 200, and we haven't done a show really since 2000, whatever, you know, years ago. You know, we we now if we do anything, it's on simply down the podcast. But back then, you know, we're making the top 200 on shows that are just basically repeats. So. Pretty happy with that,

Dave Bullis 55:01
Yeah. And that's just a testament to how you know how much traction you know not only not only the movie but like like I said earlier, I always view the podcast as a sequel to Windy City Heat because it it just adds all these layers to to everything, and I mean just you know and then of course the $10 shoutouts are always hilarious. I actually was able to send one in one time, and

Don Barris 55:24
What was your?

Dave Bullis 55:25
Yeah, mine was under. I know it was

Don Barris 55:28
May I interrupt you real quick? $10 shoutouts was where if someone sent in $10, they we would read their letter on the air, and what had happened? A lot of the fans knew the buttons to push on Perry, so he'd flip out and get upset. That's what everybody would do-just try to outtop everybody else. So that's what the Pen Dollar Shouter is. Now, pick up your story. What was yours?

Dave Bullis 55:53
Well, I know it was against the rules, Don, but I used a fake name.

Don Barris 55:58
Oh, really? You'd be the first one, right?

Dave Bullis 56:01
Yeah, yeah, I know. It's I went against the rules, and I tried to go for a long game with with my letter, and I parried it. Perry didn't take it the way I thought he would, but but it was actually towards the end of the podcast run where I actually sent in a letter, and I actually couldn't continue on which I was trying to do. I was trying to sort of put together this this kind of long joke on Perry, but it didn't work out so well. But because he again, he didn't respond like I thought he was going to. But

Don Barris 56:35
What was the letter?

Dave Bullis 56:36
The letter was about the Perry Caravelle School of Acting, and was signed. I think. I think my name was Googie Assler.

Don Barris 56:45
Yeah, I probably mispronounced the name.

Dave Bullis 56:50
It was the because it was formerly the Perry Carrello School of Acting, formerly the Perry Caravelle School of Heating and Air Conditioning Repair.

Don Barris 57:00
See, that's funny. You got the joke, and I'll tell you this. See, if I screwed up the name, I used to maybe one of the bad things is we would read the letters on air. We I should have at least looked at it before we went on, but I would just go out there and do it. So I would always screw up names and things like that. So if I messed up your name, I'm sorry.

Dave Bullis 57:26
Well, I actually asked Perry to read the letter to make it even funnier. But but he was like Googie Assler, and he kind of he said it. Yeah, I thought he was going to flip out and you know not know what I what what I was talking about. But he just sort of, you know, I I think that was where the letter before was either about his fake disability scheme or the incident with RC. So I can't remember, but I remember I think

Don Barris 57:52
I would have to say even taking over for the RC guy, which was a whole story that people should be forced to try to find out on their own. You can't tell everything, but I think that the fake disability thing pisses him off more than anything else ever thrown at him. Which is where he was like when he was like a teenager when he first got his car. He got in a car accident that put him in a coma for a few days, so it was a terrible car accident. But he, like most people, they needed excuse for failure, and his excuse is because of his because of his accident that happened 2030, years ago. And it's not that it's funny, but everything in his life was taken to be funny. So people started saying that it was a fake disability scam, and it would just set him off unlike anything else. So that's what you're talking about.

Dave Bullis 58:56
There is there is so much like I was saying before. There's so many layers to this, and it's just you know we would need like 10 podcasts to get through it all,

Don Barris 59:04
But still wouldn't be able to do it. And all the people that have been part of it just you know, but yeah. So I, by the way, I appreciate you being on. I it sounds like you're starting to wrap up. I want to make sure that we could promote a couple things on here.

Dave Bullis 59:21
Oh yeah, absolutely. Because I know you have to go, Don, and I don't want to keep pressing you for time. So, in closing, Don, is is there anything else? You know, you just want to put a period at the end of the sentence, or you know, is there anything you or Mary Jane want to say just to sort of wrap everything up?

Don Barris 59:34
Well, why don't you ask a question? We'll see if we can answer. You can ask any question you want about the Ding Dong Show, about Jimmy Kimmel about Big Three anything you'd like to talk about?

Dave Bullis 59:46
Okay, I actually all right. Um, for I want to ask this to you and Mary Jane. You know, we're honestly I don't want to sound like a like a guidance counselor, but where do you see yourselves in five years? You for both you and Mary Jane.

Don Barris 1:00:10
Well, I'm hoping because and Mary Jane may feel the same way. We put a lot of time into this to try to build somewhat of a network, because I think that you know I'm getting more people that help me out, and money is around the corner. Now we've been offered money from bigger companies, so hopefully I can start this little entertainment network that can have you know because the internet, believe it or not, not only is it the wave of the future, but I think it's either a great way to promote or it's a great way to have a show, you know. And if you can sit there and make all the calls you want, hey, let's shoot this. This sounds funny, and you can go out there and make a little money, that's spectacular. All I'm looking for is to make enough money to live, and we're getting close to that. You know, I'm lucky. I have a job that I work all the time. That I basically work a total of eight hours a week, and in that time, it gives me the money to be able to do all the other projects. So now let's hope all the other things start to click in, and you know, hopefully in five years I'm making a lot of money off things I'm creating myself.

Dave Bullis 1:01:36
You know, Don, I honestly, I I think you were going to get to that point. You know, like you said, with the internet, because you know, just with all the different avenues that are opening up, I actually was listening to a an investor friend of mine. He said, in he knows that about 50 to 70% of his income in the next couple of years is going to come from technology that that that doesn't exist yet,

Don Barris 1:02:00
Right!

Dave Bullis 1:02:01
But but so but but that's because of the way things are going now, you know. There's a lot of different avenues to approach things, and honestly, Don, you know, I think that's you know, I think that's what sort of what you were talking about.

Don Barris 1:02:14
Well, the great thing I'm in a position that I'm around a lot of people that are in show business, so to be able to do shows and to do if it becomes like videos, short videos, long videos, movies, I have an idea for a movie that I, you know, a very bizarre movie that I wanted to do, and just bring in all the people that I know in comedy to do cameos, and like we did a, I guess I can't really say names, but we did the pilot for the big three, and they all kind of worked for me for nothing. But to get the quality of talent, like I had about a cast of about 10, and to get them to do something for you and pay them their normal fee, you're talking millions of dollars. And these guys are working for free for me, so I know that I'm doing something right. But Mary Jane, you never answered the question: Where do you see yourself for five years?

Mary Jane 1:03:21
Well, when I started my my journey in Hollywood, very quickly I realized, and was given advice from from older successful people that it's not just one thing; it is a lifetime of work as an artist. And with all these these projects that we've discussed, and as of recently, I kind of finally felt what what I was I was told in that you know, and it goes along the the the thing. If you love what you do, you never really work a day in your life, and I feel I've finally gotten to a point where I do really enjoy everything going on. So the only thing I can say is that in in five years from now, I I wouldn't want to change anything except for to get to be doing the same things I'm already doing every day and every week and and you know with bigger more spectacular things, but just on a more comfortable level,

Don Barris 1:04:21
Yeah. Where I think that what it becomes, if you're paid, you're feeling good because there's nothing more fun than doing art and doing things that are fun and having because it is like playing. It keeps you young at heart, and it's like playing, goofing around as a kid. But you're goofing around, and your only goal is to have some money come in for that. I think. I think that's everybody's ultimate idea of getting in show business.

Mary Jane 1:04:50
Oh, absolutely. And and I don't even think of it as a like oh have to have money you know to survive. It's more like to get the opportunity. The bigger budget you get to create on you know one project or another, it it just lets the vision come out brighter and more clear.

Don Barris 1:05:12
Yeah, well,

Dave Bullis 1:05:13
That is great way to put it, Don and Mary Jane. You know, and I think you're right too. I think you know when they're able when when any and when he any artist is able to actually do their art and and get paid for it, whether they're a painter, a sculptor, an actor, a comedian, a writer, I think it just adds to it. You know, I think that that that's the dream. You know, when you're living that dream, and and and like you said, Don, you know, with with Joe Rogan now, he's sort of living that dream life because you know he's able to sort of have that synergetic effect where you know the UFC feeds off his podcast, which feeds into his stand-up comedian, stand-up comedy, stand-up move comedy, excuse me, and then which feeds back into the UFC. So it's sort of like this this network that's just feeding one another, and you know I think that's sort of what a lot of artists now are going for. You know whether it's with a Patreon or even some some artists even get paid to tweet. You know, like a company will come by and sponsor them and say, "Hey, you know, five tweets a week or a month or whatever, and we'll pay you X amount of dollars. You know, even stuff like that. You know, ties in with all that stuff we were talking about earlier, with all the revenues and and just all the things that keep opening up. Almost as you know, as technology advances, you know every you know every day now it seems it just seems like there's another avenue to approach.

Don Barris 1:06:26
Yeah, absolutely, and it's I'm I'm more happy about how show business and how you can make money now than when I first started. That's for sure. There's so many avenues. There's so many ways to do it, and you know, and you know, you know, hard it is to get guests to come on your show. Well, it becomes hard to get guests, but now I'm starting to do, you know, Hamlet de bars. Do you know what that is?

Dave Bullis 1:07:00
No, I'm sorry, I don't.

Don Barris 1:07:02
In the '70s, she was like the most famous groupie there was. You know, they say they base part of the character for that almost famous movie, you know, on this woman. I mean, she she has a list of people that she had sex with, from Mick Jagger, Robert Plant to Woody Allen. She had affairs and long affairs with a lot of these people. From what I understand, Robert Plant still comes to see her when he's in Los Angeles. So I mean, there's some interest there, and I'm I'm to the point now. I'm going to start interviewing people like that just to get things going, but it is hard to get gas, especially when there's no money or anything like that. But I just I believe so much that this is the future and this is what you have to have. You know, I'm nobody makes money at first, but I'll tell you, it is an interesting thing to do. And it's when you said that you wanted me to do this, and you honored me by saying that you wanted me to be your 100th guest. I was very happy to do that. I'm, you know, I'm happy that we touched somebody, and I have no problem talking to you about it. I hope that I was pretty good with you. Didn't do a lot of things that led to funny, funny bits. But I'm glad that uh, I hope that was okay for you. I hope Mary Jane was okay.

Dave Bullis 1:08:30
Oh, absolutely. You know, I wanted this to be. You know, I mean, honestly, you know, each show that I do here is different, but I wanted this to be. I know, you know, obviously that you have the big three fan base. I wanted sort of this to be like sort of a an add-on. It's sort of like as I said before, another you know peeling back another layer, and and sort of seeing you know the the Don Barris story, and then and hearing you know what Mary Jane is going through too. You know, just just about being a working artist, you know, stuff like that. And you know, honestly, obviously we talked about Perry, but I honestly, Don, I, I think that's gonna, I think Perry's gonna follow you for until until the until like the end of time. I think, I think

Don Barris 1:09:12
I'm the only one that's fucking up his life. I am the worst person ever. There's people have taken Perry and they they try to do their own little thing with Perry, which usually is terrible for us. But you know, but he is he's gonna be around unless I can get something else for him. That's what I'm trying to do, just so he can make some money off websites and things like that. I'm just trying to help him, but I got to get the fuck away from this guy because he's a terrible person. You know, if you ever want to have me on again, maybe we talk about the ding dong show and other stuff going on.

Dave Bullis 1:09:53
Yeah, absolutely, Don. I, you know, I would love to have you and Mary Jane back on sometime.

Don Barris 1:10:06
All right, very cool. Can we try to promote a few things before we go?

Dave Bullis 1:10:11
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Feel free to you know work people find you out online, and if there's anything else you want to talk about, please feel free.

Don Barris 1:10:18
Well, you know, on myself, Twitter. If you ever want to follow me, because it is a numbers game. So the more Twitter followers, the better. If you want to get in touch with me, I'm at simply Don One. That's the number one. Mary Jane is.

Mary Jane 1:10:33
A with a circle. S M O K I N G M A R Y J A N E.

Don Barris 1:10:39
There you go. We have we have the Ding Dong Show, which is we haven't put it up online yet, but we have about 100 shows we're going to put up of the Ding Dong Show, and I'd like to get people to start looking at that. But you can on Monday night because we have the Ding Dong Show, we've taken that we're making a podcast of all the live shows from the Comedy Store, but we have a right now it goes live. And Mary Jane, how could they watch the dingo Monday nights?

Mary Jane 1:11:10
Every Monday, if you're going to come to Hollywood at the Comedy Store, it's 10 p.m. But if you're elsewhere and can't come in person, you can watch on YouTube live stream and the channel to find is the the Ding Nang Show. Yes, that is 2 T H E S. So the the Ding Nang Show at 1030 p.m. California Standard Pacific whatever time.

Don Barris 1:11:36
Yeah. So that I'm I'm at Facebook at Don Barris. What else do I have out there? Oh, Instagram. I do a lot of ins. I just got a great video the other day. I'm starting around Sunset Boulevard. I always try to. It's about three 3:30 in the morning. I'm taking somebody home. In the middle of Sunset Boulevard came this guy with nothing but shoes, a helmet, and a skateboard, and he kind of completely naked. No, it wasn't Perry, but I sent the I put this vine video up, which is at Don Barris is my Vine. I put that up, and it was of a guy completely naked skateboarding at 3:30 in the morning, and so everybody said, "Oh, I see, Perry sold another skateboard there. So that was, they'll always tie it into Perry, but all he did was kind of tell me to fuck off, then threw a skateboard at me. But I I enjoy doing that. So Instagram him simply down one two, so that's do that, but it was very fun being on the show with you, Dave. You're a very good guy, and thank you for pushing the the big three. It's guys like you that made it more popular.

Dave Bullis 1:12:50
Oh, it's you know my my pleasure, Don. I actually also everyone just before we wrap up, I want to mention I um I've actually been working on a comic book of sorts, actually about Perry, a scary Perry Christmas, and you know, you know, I usually put that up in the Big Three fan club, and I want to, you know, offline. I want to talk to you, Don, about if it would be okay if I actually put it up on my site again. It would be free. It would just be, you know, I just want to make sure it's okay with you.

Don Barris 1:13:19
Sure, why not?

Dave Bullis 1:13:21
So that way, people can download it as like a PDF or there's one or two other file because people sometimes ask me to put up other file extensions. So I want to actually clip that up there again. It's 100% free. I'm not crowdfunding anything. So and issue four is about to drop down. I think you're going to really like issue four. It actually goes all into Perry's supposed car crash.

Don Barris 1:13:43
Whoa, that'll be see. I've heard about it for so long, but to see it'll be great.

Dave Bullis 1:13:50
Yeah, I think I think we really get to the bottom of this whole car crash thing. So, Don and Mary Jane, I want to say thank you so so much for coming on,

Don Barris 1:14:01
Thank you, Dave.

Mary Jane 1:14:02
Thank you.

Dave Bullis 1:14:04
And again, anytime you guys want to come back on, please. It's the doors always open, and I honestly, I want. I look forward to seeing what both you are coming up with. You know, I think there's a lot of interesting things that are going to be coming out from you two in the next couple years, and very soon actually, not just the next couple years.

Don Barris 1:14:21
Well, thank you very much. It was fun being here.

Mary Jane 1:14:23
Thank you very, very much.

Dave Bullis 1:14:25
Oh, my pleasure, and I wish you guys the best of luck and have a good night.

Don Barris 1:14:30
Alright, bye now.

Dave Bullis 1:14:30
Take care. Bye bye.

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BPS 489: He Made 1,500 Short Films Before Hollywood Took Notice with Michael Rousselet

September 17, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There is a dangerous idea floating around filmmaking that says we need permission before we can begin. Permission from a film school. Permission from a producer. Permission from an agent, financier, studio, distributor, or some mysterious gatekeeper sitting behind a desk deciding who gets to become a filmmaker. But the career of Michael Rousselet offers a much more useful perspective. Michael is a filmmaker, screenwriter, and member of the comedy collective behind Five Second Films and Dude Bro Party Massacre III, whose career was built largely by repeatedly creating work rather than waiting for someone to authorize it. His journey is a reminder that filmmaking careers are often constructed one ridiculous little project at a time.

Michael went to USC for screenwriting, but one of his biggest takeaways from film school wasn’t a secret formula for writing movies. It was the people. Film school gave him a community of filmmakers who were just as obsessed with movies as he was. Writers met cinematographers. Directors met actors. People interested in lighting, sound, editing, and production began finding each other. That network eventually became what Michael describes as his filmmaking family—the people he continued creating with long after graduation. He is also clear that film school isn’t mandatory. The technical information can be learned elsewhere. What matters is finding collaborators and creating an environment where you can make mistakes, learn from them, and keep going.

That willingness to make things eventually became Five Second Films. The idea sounds almost absurdly simple: create a complete film lasting approximately five seconds. But simplicity forced discipline. Every joke had to be distilled to its essential ingredients. Michael had notebooks filled with tiny ideas that weren’t substantial enough to become full screenplays, and suddenly those ideas had somewhere to live. After graduating, the group made the commitment even crazier: release a new Five Second Film every Monday through Friday. They maintained that schedule for roughly six years and produced more than 1,500 films. Initially, almost nobody watched. They might get fifteen or thirty views. Then one film hit the front page of Reddit, subscribers arrived, and something began changing.

What makes that story valuable isn’t the number 1,500. It’s what happened during those 1,500 repetitions. The filmmakers were effectively putting themselves through another film school. Every weekend brought another opportunity to write, direct, perform, light, shoot, edit, and solve problems. When occasional commercial work generated money, they invested it back into production equipment rather than simply pocketing it. They bought lights and microphones. They scavenged usable equipment. Their house slowly transformed into a makeshift production studio. Most importantly, they were building an audience while simultaneously building their filmmaking muscles. By the time they wanted to make a feature, they had something many aspiring filmmakers don’t have: years of completed work proving they could actually execute.

That became critical when they tried to make Dude Bro Party Massacre III. They initially attempted the traditional path. They wrote the movie and approached producers, but many didn’t understand the concept or considered financing a feature from an online sketch-comedy group too risky. Instead of allowing those passes to kill the project, the filmmakers turned toward the audience they had spent years developing. Their Kickstarter raised roughly a quarter-million dollars. Independent financier Keith Calder of Snoot Entertainment then offered to match the financing after seeing their body of work, audience, and crowdfunding momentum. The feature existed because years of seemingly tiny projects had accumulated into evidence. They hadn’t merely told someone they could make a movie. They had spent years demonstrating it.

Michael’s approach to screenwriting comes from the same philosophy. He starts by understanding the story he wants to tell, particularly where it begins and where he thinks it ends. Then he dumps ideas into a document without worrying initially about making everything elegant. Those scattered thoughts get arranged chronologically, gaps are filled, and eventually the mess becomes an outline substantial enough to attack in screenplay form. With collaborators, note cards can help visualize character relationships and rising action. But perhaps his strongest writing lesson is even simpler: stop demanding perfection from the first draft. “You can’t be afraid to write down a line that you know sucks,” he explains. The scene can be terrible. The dialogue can be obvious. Write it anyway. Finish the draft, then return with what he calls your “bullshit detector” and rewrite it.

There is also a fascinating lesson in how Michael talks about intentionally making a B movie. Dude Bro Party Massacre III wasn’t created by filmmakers sneering at the movies they were parodying. They genuinely loved 1980s horror films. That affection mattered because intentionally making something “bad” can easily become forced. Michael argues that the comedy needs sincerity underneath it. The filmmakers still cared about gore, scares, characters, motivation, and story. One of their biggest breakthroughs came when they realized their supposedly heroic dude bros were actually terrible people and that the killer, Motherface, could see herself as justified. Suddenly the antagonist had an understandable perspective and the third act began falling into place. Even inside an outrageous horror comedy, basic dramatic principles still mattered.

Perhaps the most useful lesson arrives near the end of the conversation when Michael talks directly to filmmakers preparing their first feature. Don’t write forty speaking roles if you don’t have the resources for forty actors. Don’t casually fill the screenplay with fifty locations, animals, children, fire, water, complicated stunts, and other elements that create enormous production requirements. Dude Bro did many of those things, and Michael knows firsthand how difficult they made the production. His advice is beautifully practical: write for what you have. Three actors and a few locations can still produce an extraordinary film. Your first feature doesn’t need the logistical footprint of Lawrence of Arabia.

That may be the thread connecting everything Michael Rousselet discusses. Make the thing. Finish the screenplay. Shoot the short. Learn why the lighting didn’t work. Fix the sound next time. Find people who are as obsessed with movies as you are. Build an audience instead of assuming one will magically appear when your feature is finished. Accept that your first draft will contain garbage. Accept that your first productions will contain mistakes. Then make another one. Filmmaking doesn’t become easier because we wait until we’re ready. We become filmmakers because we keep doing the work.

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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
So on today's show, once I heard of the movie, I knew I had to see it, and once I saw it, I knew I had talked to the guys who made it. So on today's show, I have one of those guys. The movie is Dude Bro Party Massacre III Yes, you heard me correctly. And the guy is Michael Rousselet. Michael is not only one of the writers and directors of Dude Bro Party Massacre Three, but he's also the main reason that the room was such a cult hit, because without him actually finding it and writing all about it and telling everyone to go see it, the room probably would have died out. So this guy has gotten himself into the cultural zeitgeist just by finding the room. So here we go with Michael Rousselet. Hey, Michael, I want to say thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing out there at what are you in now? L.A. Right?

Michael Rousselet 2:44
Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm out in L.A. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm in sunny California. Although I think it's kind of raining right now, so that's really nice.

Dave Bullis 2:55
You know, it's snowing right here in Philadelphia.

Michael Rousselet 2:57
Oh, that's beautiful. You should send some of that back. Put it in an envelope, mail it.

Dave Bullis 3:02
Oh, you know that's a good idea. I could make like a million dollars off.

Michael Rousselet 3:04
Yes, selling selling snow.

Dave Bullis 3:09
It's funny. I was actually out in this, and like every time I had to step foot outside, it was getting worse and worse. I was like, it's like a sitcom where the guy goes inside and it like it starts to ease up just a tad, and as soon as he's getting ready to leave, it just comes down even harder.

Michael Rousselet 3:23
Great.

Dave Bullis 3:25
So, Michael, you know, I wanted to get started. You know, by asking about your background, you know, I want-I always ask this this one question. That is, did you go to film school?

Michael Rousselet 3:32
Yes, I did go to film school. I've been making short little films ever since I got my hands on my dad's little video camera in high school, and yeah, I was just making stuff all through high school, and and went to film school at USC in the screenwriting program.

Dave Bullis 3:51
So when you were shooting stuff, you know, growing up, were you shooting it on all sorts of like different formats, like VHS, and and I'm sure you know other formats that are escaping it, like mini DV and stuff like that?

Michael Rousselet 4:03
Yeah, there was one of the really old cameras. It was kind of I can't remember the name of it. It was like this mini VHS. It was a to play it on a VCR. You had to put the really tiny VHS into a bigger VHS to play it on the VCR. It's basically that camera that Marty McFly has in Back to the Future One, that little red guy, and that's actually in Dude Bro. So that's I guess kind of how I started was with that camera, and then you know moved up to mini DV and was like high eight mini DV, and not as fucking badass and sexy as the cameras are now. You know, it's like God. I feel like an old man. It's like goddamn your kids in high school with your, you know, red epics and phantom cameras and 4K and 8K. It's nuts. Shit looks great now, but everything that you know, kids growing up are shooting. It just it looks professional quality. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 5:00
Seriously, it's even even like fight videos you see. And some guy just pulls out his phone. Yeah, it's like you know, it's like my God, the quality is amazing. I can read like the stuff in the background. Like it's um, it's unbelievable. Yeah. Uh, you know, I think you know, I remember that we were we were talking about. I think that was called VHS C, and I think that was the yeah that we needed a bigger VHS to put it in, almost like a ship.

Michael Rousselet 5:23
Yeah, yeah, that's what I started shooting on. You know, my dad would just take home videos, and he'd let me run around with the camera, and I just thought it was a lot of fun. Originally, growing up, I wanted to be a doctor, so I studied medicine, and I saved up and bought a skeleton, like a anatomical, like a medical, like a not a real one, but a fucking a full, full like five and a half foot tall skeleton pulling weeds out of the backyard, and I had that in my room growing up. It's kind of an odd kid, but I've always been a fan of horror films in the macabre, so I thought it was kind of funny and suiting to have, and as I grew up and got older, I I felt I was like, ah, medicine and surgeries-it's-it's too serious for me. I don't want to have that responsibility. So my other passion was films and movies. So I thought that would be safer instead of you know put a camera in my hand instead of a scalpel.

Dave Bullis 6:21
You know, I actually have a friend of mine who graduated with an MD. He for spinal surgery. He was going to be an orthopedic surgeon, and he started doing his residency, and decided he wanted to be a screenwriter.

Michael Rousselet 6:36
Amazing

Dave Bullis 6:38
And, and it and I mean I ended up meeting him through the through a TV pilot program, and we just got to talking. I'm like, "What? You were an orthopedic surgeon? And he's like, "Oh yeah. He's like, "I can actually go right now. I'm board. He's like, "I'm certified in everything. Like they they were they were calling him to ask him if he could come in and do like, "Hey, could you come in to to do some surgery on the ninth? He's like, "No way! You kidding?

Michael Rousselet 7:00
Oh my God!

Dave Bullis 7:02
So

Michael Rousselet 7:03
He's just racking up student debt. I just when I grow up, I just want to have debt. I'm going to go to med school and not be a doctor. I'm going to go to film school and you know just keep keep. Oh man, that's wild. Good for him. Follow your dreams.

Dave Bullis 7:19
Yeah, and so you know you're you you went to film school

Michael Rousselet 7:22
Yes,

Dave Bullis 7:23
And you you got you went to USC for for screenwriting you said?

Michael Rousselet 7:26
Screenwriting, yeah. I actually didn't get accepted the first time I applied. I was an idiot, and I only applied to one college out of high school. I was like, it's USC or nothing, and I totally didn't get in. I was like, ah, shit. And so then I went to a community college for a couple years to build up some credits to transfer into like a UCLA or UC program college, and and then I decided to apply to USC again out of spite. And everything I wrote was pretty cynical and and and not I wouldn't say condescending, but I definitely had a sharp tongue and opinion about some things. I was like, ah, here you go. Is your fucking application, and I got in. And I was like, what the fuck? Super weird.

Dave Bullis 8:08
Did they say anything to you about it? Did they say Michael?

Michael Rousselet 8:10
No, you don't get any feedback on on what you write. You just get, you know, I guess the the the best feedback you can get in is getting accepted. So yeah, I did that, and and and I think the the best experience, you know, the best thing I got out of film school was meeting all my friends who I continue to make films with, and I think you know you don't need to go to film school to make movies. It helps, but the most important thing is meeting people who are just as passionate and crazy as you are about cinema, and that's who you want to be working with. You know, like you meet you meet someone who has a camera, and they they just want to be a director of photography, or someone that loves writing, and and someone that likes sound and music, and and you meet actors, and and all these little elements come together, and that kind of becomes your filmmaking family for the rest of your life is is through these group of people, but yeah, you know, watching a ton of movies and reading about film and and having discussions and listening to lectures certainly does help. But that's something you can do on your own. Even Rocket, you know the the website Rocket Jump.

Dave Bullis 9:20
Oh yeah, I know Rocket.

Michael Rousselet 9:20
Yeah, that they have an online film school and it's fantastic. They post videos on all these different techniques and and theories and and they show you how to do stuff. It's great. So yeah,

Dave Bullis 9:33
I'm actually in talks to get Freddy to come on the podcast.

Michael Rousselet 9:35
Oh hell yeah, I love Freddy. Yeah, I should um, I'll poke him. He's really busy. They're they're working on a I think another Hulu show. Or those guys are those guys are machines. They just keep creating content. They're outstanding.

Dave Bullis 9:49
Yeah, he actually had his own pod. For a while too, and at 100 episodes, they actually said, "Hey, everyone, this is the 100th episode, and by the way, it's also the last episode.

Michael Rousselet 10:08
It's fun. They're just moving on. Yep, and we're done. We're gonna now. We're gonna do something else. It's great, yeah. And they also started. They went to USC, and I knew them from back in the day. I was not. I wasn't in the dorms with them, like Brian Ferenzi, creator of Five Second Films, they're they're old school dude bros. But yeah, I I knew about his videos on on YouTube. It was so weird how YouTube started really picking up. Was it 2006? And and it was just odd seeing. It was just such a weird time. Like it was starting off online and making videos on YouTube was it was this it was like the Wild West. It was unchartered territory, and and I saw the videos that Freddy did, and they were just video game stuff, and they were really fucking funny and creative, and it was so random running into him at school. I'm like, "Hey, you're that guy. What the hell? I was like, "That's so weird. But yeah, I think anyway, I'm rambling. But yeah,

Dave Bullis 11:12
No, no, you believe me, you're fine. I, I, I have that that that that effect on people. I end up making them start to ramble.

Michael Rousselet 11:18
Well, it's a podcast. I think I'm supposed to keep talking,

Dave Bullis 11:22
And now you're just keep talking, Michael. I got to fill time.

Michael Rousselet 11:25
Yeah, if you stop talking, the podcast will blow up. You know, it's like it's like that movie Speed, but on a podcast.

Dave Bullis 11:33
I think that Kevin Smith probably has an idea about that already.

Michael Rousselet 11:36
Yeah, probably.

Dave Bullis 11:38
So you know, I I know you touched on this briefly, but you know, if you could go back, do you think you would do film school again, or do you think you maybe you would maybe choose another route to go?

Michael Rousselet 11:50
Um, I'm, I'm, I, I would definitely do it again because I would not have met all my friends that I work with today. I mean, all the what ifs of the world. I, I could have done my own thing and then met another group of crazy people and probably made something else. But no, I would I would still do it because meeting Brian Ferenzi and Eric Sandoval and Michael Peter and all all those people that were in the cinema program with me. Those that's like my filmmaking family. Those are the guys I write with, and we shoot random videos. We did five-second films for you know six years, and it started in college. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't trade that.

Dave Bullis 12:31
The reason I always ask ask that question is that you know everyone sort of has their own experiences in film school, and some people you know come on the podcast and they would say you know I don't really think it's you know. I think the game has changed too much now, where I could actually go and do it and go a different route. You know, if I could, if I wanted to find crew, I go on Craigslist and open up a Twitter, and it's stuff like that. But I mean, you know, that's why I'm always interested in everyone's experience of the topic.

Michael Rousselet 12:57
I agree with that. That you don't need film school. You really don't, because like Rocket Jump, they have the online film school, and you know that's free. All the information is on there. You know, every frame's a painting. That there's so much great content out there that that's incredibly insightful and and educational. But I think what film school allows you to do is make mistakes without anyone, you know. Without you can make mistakes in film school and learn from them. If you don't have that outlet to do that, then you know you have to be really you have to be willing to make mistakes and fail a lot, and that's what film school is. It's just learning to fail over and over again, and then after you know four years, like, hey, I think I got a handle on this. But you don't need that. You just you just need to keep making content, and and and maybe it's kind of like the safety net of a film school. You feel that if you make a mistake, it's not the end of the world. It allows you to fail because that's why you're there. You're there to learn, but you just need to have that attitude all the time. If you're not in film school, it's like you're making stuff, and you know it's you know shit's gonna look. The lighting's gonna be bad. Okay, well the next one I'm gonna do better lighting. You know, oh I screwed up on the sound on this one. Well, the next one the sound will be better, and you just learn from you some snakes. And a lot of people say, "Oh, I'm just gonna. I I do agree. The amount of debt I have is absurd. I'm paying for it, but he's like, "Oh, I could have used that to make my own fucking movie. And yeah, you could, but it's such a risk because you have to you have to be willing to take care of everything and and and make sure that you're not going to make those mistakes. So, like, you can make your first film, feature film. Like, hey, I made a feature film, and it could have all these technical problems, and it just sucks. And if only if you just took more time to plan and and make the mistakes in the past, the little mistakes, so you don't make the big mistake. But it just depends. I mean, I. You you can you can take film school or you can leave it, but you just the most important thing is like you have to make content and you have to be willing to learn from your mistakes, and and failure. So

Dave Bullis 15:11
Yeah, and one thing you know, Michael too is you know I'm going to go back to screenwriting because I you know I'm big into screenwriting too. Like that's my specialty, and you know I know you went to school for it. You know, and one thing I've always learned-well, it's taken me a while to learn this, though-is to get good at screenwriting. You actually have to write screenplays. Yes, you can't. You can't. You can't read books. You can't. You know, watch any seminars on on YouTube or even go to them in person. You absolutely have to write them, and that's how you get better at them.

Michael Rousselet 15:43
Exactly, and then you have to let people read it who you trust their opinion, and not just people that are going to say, "Oh, it's great. I like this. I like that. Like you need constructive criticism. You need notes. You need someone to be blunt and say your whole third act is screwed up, and the reason why it's screwed up is because your first act. And you know, like oh shit. One of the most difficult things of after graduating film school, other than the crippling debt, is you don't have professors and and people you know like jumping on your back to to finish pages and turn in stuff because you know it's like hey you have to turn in your outline in these two weeks oh you don't. Well, okay, you're gonna fail, you know, if you don't turn in your script by the end of the semester and all that stuff. But when you graduate, you've got no one bugging you, and you're your own worst enemy and boss. So it's just you just have to fucking write. You have to do it, and you have to learn, and you just have to keep writing and and and understand understand that it takes time, and you you just gotta fucking do it. That's all. It's like going to a gym, you know. It's like yeah, you can buy the membership, but you don't go. It doesn't fucking help. It might help if you have a personal trainer because that's gonna be someone who's gonna be calling you and bugging you, being like, "Where the fuck are you? Why are you not at the gym? You know, but you gotta pay for that, or you just be disciplined and you just go. You don't even need a gym. You can just work out like at a park and just do basic, basic exercises. You know, it's it's like it's the same concept. You either want to get better and like tune a muscle, like your brain, or you want to tune your butt. Both both exceed a lot of shit.

Dave Bullis 17:22
So you know, I wanted to ask you know before you know I I wanted to ask about five second films. I wanted to ask you know one final thing about you know your your time you know in in college, and you know what is what is some of the best things that you think you've learned in film school?

Michael Rousselet 17:36
Oh, in film school, I was like, oh, best things I learned was how properly do beer bong and no film school? The best things I learned in film school. Fuck, it's it's kind of an amalgamation of things that I learned from my fellow students and colleagues, and it's kind of like information that they get that they got from their class, and it all just kind of like this spreads around. One of them was for a good editing tool and a good writing tool. Is what's the latest you can enter a scene and the earliest you can exit a scene with it still making sense? That's like, as in you don't need someone to walk in through a door and have a whole beginning, like you can just jump right into the middle of the scene. What is? But what's the the the what's the latest you can jump into it with it still making sense? What's the earliest? Just being get to the point faster, have a point of view, yeah, and talk. I mean, there's so much stuff, and there's a lot of stuff I learned by just doing. Because I was, I was really into lighting, and I was one of the only screenwriters who would just work on shoots as a grip and a gaffer, because I, I just thought it was so much fun to play with lights. You know, it was, and also because I knew it was expensive equipment. It's like, ooh, how much is that light? What? Why? Oh, here's why. Oh shit, that's cool. My friend, when I and here's another thing you can do when you don't even need to go to film school, you can you can volunteer to crew on a shoot, and that's a way to learn. And so when I was 16 or 17, a buddy of mine went to USC, older dude, and I wanted to help out on a shoot, and I just wanted to get my get my fucking hands dirty, and I said, "Oh, I'll be a production assistant. And he said, "No, don't be a production assistant. It's like you you're just going to learn how to like lock down a set and like throw away trash and keep craft service. He's like, just come on as a grip. I go, Andrew, I've never learned. I don't know how to grip. He goes, just show up, and you're going to learn. They need grips. He's like, it's basically the same thing. You're lugging shit. You're you're moving heavy gear. You're either moving water water or you're moving sandbags. I'm like, okay, I'll I'll learn about sandbags, and and do you know what? I don't know if your listeners or if you know you know what apple boxes are. Yeah. So my first day on a student film, I asked. I'm all eager and like, oh, I want to help out. I didn't even know what a C stand was. I didn't know what anything was other than a sandbag. And I go to the DP and I go, "What can I do to help you? She goes, "Go get me a half apple. So I run to craft service. I eat half an apple and I bring it back to her because I thought it was for something to put on the set, like production. Like she, she's like she was looking at a desk. She's like, "This desk needs something. And she said, "Oh, go get me a half apple. I'm like, "Oh, a desk? You want to have a half-eaten apple? And I handed it to her, and she looked at me. She's like, "No, what the fuck is this? And then a grip gave me. He's like, "No, here's this is the half apple, and it's a fucking box. And I was like, "What the hell? And she just needed it to sit on. Yeah, so I learned what a half apple was from top school. I don't know. Oh yeah, I literally watch it.

Dave Bullis 21:13
I mean, I mean that that is see that those are those experiences. I'm always talking to Michael. That you know, I mean, I mean, I didn't go to school for to for film. I went to school for business, and smart. I mean, the I I always wondered if I was doing the right thing, and because I I went to business school, and suddenly I'm like, oh man, I really want to do movies. Am I doing the right thing by being here? And the teacher was going on and on and on about micro versus macroeconomics, and you know, I'm just like my God. I just want to get home write that screenplay. But you know, I I mean, I did make my own student films on the side, and and and it was just you know all that stuff, man. It was just you know just trying because because you know your first student film or your first film period, you you get your friends and family, you know, you know, oh yeah, and your film putting them as in roles and stuff. Well, I shot it with all friends, and we ended up getting a friend of mine. His grandparents let us use two of their vacation homes, so we could film anywhere we wanted, all over the property. Oh, right. And we ended up, we ended up. We're filming this one scene, right, where my one friend is getting, you know, quote unquote, tortured, and his grandfather just walks in as we got like a power drill almost going to his head, and he just looks in those like this look on his face, like what the fuck, and he closes the door slowly, didn't say a word.

Michael Rousselet 22:36
Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. Oh man! If I had $1 every time someone looked at me, what the fuck are you filming? What is wrong with you people? God, I'm so rich. We'd shoot when we would shoot five second films at our house. We'd have we'd be filming on the streets and everything, and our neighbors are just like Jesus Christ, you fucking hipsters, you know, just running around in a giant banana suit, or you know, I'm dressed up as a hobo chasing a whole mountain of shopping carts going down down the hill, and fuck, what was it? I had a we filmed like 1500 films at that house. There was every every nook and cranny of the house we lived in once we graduated is was thoroughly documented by the fire fucking films era.

Dave Bullis 23:29
So you know, I actually wanted to talk. You know, five second films. You know, so you started that in college. So and then you just kept the ball rolling as soon as you graduated. Yeah, you know, making sure you. So so did you already have like a YouTube channel established before you graduated.

Michael Rousselet 23:42
Brian Ferenzi. I met Brian Ferenzi in screenwriting, and the teacher was, you know, right after the summer break, and the teacher says, "So, what did you guys do over the summer? And Brian said, "Oh, I made some five-second films with my friends, and I never met Brian. And but I, you know, when you you kind of have like this pretentious air. You're like, oh, film school. I like Godard and and Truffaut and Fellini. Yes, yes. And I don't care about these Michael Bay short things and and frantic cutting. And I was like, five seconds. That sounds so stupid. What can you do in five seconds? And I saw I saw some of the films, and I was like, holy shit, this is hilarious! And Brian was hysterical, and I was like, "You're my new best friend. I'm never gonna leave you alone. His five second films was like the perfection, the perfection of a gag, perfection of a joke, storytelling incredibly simplified and and distilled. And I I and I I used to keep a notebook. God, I used to. I need to keep doing it. Fell off the wagon. I used to carry a molskin around with me, and I have like 10 of them, maybe 15. And I just write down dumb ideas or dumb jokes, and I I wouldn't know what I do with them. I just thought like, well, that's a funny idea. Made me laugh. I better write it down, or I'll forget. And I just had a whole like library of all these dumb ideas and jokes that were incredibly half baked and didn't have anywhere to go. Like I can't write a script about a guy who loses a stapler, but I thought it was funny. And and and so meeting Brian and and getting involved with this this hilarious kind of filmmaking was a way to express all my creativity and and give these jokes a home. And so we became fast friends, and we started bringing in our other friends because everyone just thought it was funny, and it kind of grew grew out of that. And then in when we graduated in 2008, Brian said he wanted to do a website, and he wanted to do a new film every every day. And I said, "Okay, that's insane. I'll help you. So we did a new film every Monday through Friday, shoot them on the weekend, and we did that for six years. We never missed a day, and it was like something like 1500 plus films, and yeah, and so and we were just doing it for ourselves. It was never, it start. We did it for ourselves and our friends. It never, we never thought it would grow really because no one was watching us. Our our views were like 15, you know, maybe 30 views. If we got lucky, like hey, we broke 200. That's pretty crazy, and we did that for six months until we made the front page on of Reddit for Magic Show Volunteer, one of our films, and we're like, whoa, what the fuck? Just started getting all these subscribers, and we're like, okay, I guess this might be something, so we just kept doing it, and it was kind of crazy because we didn't have an end in sight. We didn't know when we would ever stop. We knew we wanted to make a feature film and do TV, but no one would ever give us the time of day. So we just kept doing these short films, kind of like it kept us sharp. It was fun. It gave us it gave us some sort of sense of purpose, and over the course of you know a year or so, it it started opening up some doors for us. We got some like web commercial jobs, and with that money, we were able to buy lights and increase our production value. So we didn't really put it in our pocket. We weren't really we weren't even making money, to be honest. We every now and then we'd get a job and get like 1000 bucks here or there, and then we would just invest that into our infrastruct infrastructure and buy lavaliers, and then we buy. You know, Eric Sandoval was working at a grip house, like a studio, and they would throw crappy gear away, and he would just take it, like a green.

Michael Rousselet 27:44
We had this green screen. We still have it, and it's huge. And they threw it away because they had a a coffee stain, like a big coffee stain in the corner. But we just hang it up in our garage, and it's fucking awesome. So, and it was, it was, it was yeah. We just took over our house. We made our house our little production studio, and every Sunday people would come over and we'd shoot, and did that for six years. It's crazy.

Dave Bullis 28:11
I mean, that that is some dedication to shoot. I mean, over 1500, you know, films. I mean, that that is some absolute dedication.

Michael Rousselet 28:18
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 28:18
And I mean,

Michael Rousselet 28:19
It was all it was just obsession and and I was so psychotic.

Dave Bullis 28:25
Was there ever a time where you just said, "What the fuck am I doing?

Michael Rousselet 28:29
All the like, yeah, all the time. And it's like you know what I'm wearing a dress and I'm you know I got this huge bouffant hairstyle and you know I'm walking around in the street, filming at the park, and I'm like, "What the fuck am I doing? You know, but I was goofing off with my friends, and and we were having a good time, and and we were gaining an audience, and you know, they liked what we were doing. We're like, "Well, fuck it, let's just keep doing this, and um, and and the whole YouTube thing again, YouTube allowed us to reach a big audience. Now YouTube has just grown into this crazy monster.

Dave Bullis 29:06
Yeah, yes, it has.

Michael Rousselet 29:08
Like it was, yeah. It's I don't even know, man.

Dave Bullis 29:12
I I remember when YouTube in 2004 when they first launched. I remember actually because I I actually just started college, and I remember I remember that, and I was like, "Wow! I was like, "You know, this is this is what that was kind of cool. And then I was like, "You know, and then like you know, 2006, like you said, it started to become really big, and now it's like everyone puts every cat video in the world up there now.

Michael Rousselet 29:36
Yeah. Oh, they have their the YouTube space. There's a big studio soundstage they have in Los Angeles, kind of like by the airport, and content creators can go there and you know get access to a soundstage and professional equipment and gear. And you know they can hire kind of freelance crews who volunteer to help out. It's it's crazy. Like it's it's you know it really shook up Hollywood. It's fantastic because if it weren't for YouTube, we never would have made our feature film because we were able to build a fan base, and and then we did a Kickstarter. It's like we proved to so many people that we can do this, and we're dedicated. And yeah, it's it's you know I look back upon it like holy shit, that was insane. The end goal was always to make a movie. That's what we always wanted to do, but no one would give us money, so when the Kickstarter idea, crowdfunding came out, that was we're like, well, fuck, let's let's see if we can ask our fan base because at that time I think we had we had like 350,000 subscribers. Wow, yeah, so drop so much compared to a lot of people.

Dave Bullis 30:58
So what was the sort of like the impetus? I mean, did you write the script? You know,

Michael Rousselet 31:04
Yeah, we all, we all,

Dave Bullis 31:05
And then and and then I mean, did you like we did you write the script and then pitch it to producers? Yes, or we tried to it that way first.

Michael Rousselet 31:13
Yes, we tried to we tried the the old fashioned way, and we wrote this ridiculous fucking movie, and no one wanted to touch it. They were like, "What, dude, bro? Party massacre three? Like, who the fuck? What? Where's the first two? What the hell?

Dave Bullis 31:32
So did did did they not just did they not understand like the concept, or do they just think like this is just way too over the top for us? Oh, really?

Michael Rousselet 31:43
A lot of the old old the old producers didn't understand it at all. They're like pass hard pass, and but their assistants who were younger were like, "This is hilarious. I'm sorry they passed. They don't fucking get it. And then there are other people that are like, you know, it's it's it's a gamble to invest in, you know. I know you guys are a sketch group online, and but sketch comedy doesn't really. It's a risk because you know. No offense, you guys are nobodies, so that's why we couldn't get a. We we did a bunch of pilots, and they never got picked up because they're like sketch comedy is really risky because you're a bunch of nobodies and it's hard to invest, and it's like sorry. I was like, all right, whatever. So we just did it on our own. We yeah, and got raised a quarter million dollars on Kickstarter, and then an independent financier, Keith Calder of Snoot Entertainment, reached out and said he would match the funding, so he got it, and and I think he was really impressed with our body of work, and he and the and the Kickstarter was going really well. He's like, "All right, well, these guys, these guys got something. They they they have an audience, so yeah, God bless him. Fuck me. So he came on towards the end of the Kickstarting campaign. So he was he was our white knight. God bless that guy. And and then and and then he financed Anamalisa, Charlie Kaufman film, which was nominated. So we're like, oh my god, I really we really hope this wins an Oscar because then Dude Bro Party Massacre III will be in like that kind of like company of like yes, the Academy Award winning company Snoot and Dude Bro Party Massacre III.

Dave Bullis 33:31
It's a shame I never saw the Kickstarter when it was going on because I I definitely would have donated.

Michael Rousselet 33:35
Oh, thanks.

Dave Bullis 33:36
Because, because this is like like I like you know in the in the pre-interview, I get this. I get this movie completely, man. Because even before I saw it, I actually had an idea for a movie, not similar, but you know what I mean. Like a like a movie where I said, you know what, it's like a throwback to the '80s slashers, but I said I don't think people would get it. If you know what I mean, like I was always afraid that that you know, if I if I went to like a producer, they'd say, "What the hell is this Dave Bullis kid smoking? Get him the hell out of here! Yeah. So so that's why when I saw Dude Real Party Massacre three, I was like, "Oh my god! I said, "This this is awesome. And that's why I was actually very very excited that you were you were successful because I was like, "Yes, it proves it can be done. So here we are.

Michael Rousselet 34:24
I mean, I don't know. Successful is such a loose word when it comes to the film industry. It didn't make any money, but the reviews were great. We're really happy with that. People either loved it or liked it, and and you know, a lot of people were just like, I don't fucking get this. This is stupid, and which is fine. I'm from the internet. I've heard so many worse comments. So reading reviews are actually kind of nice. Like, oh, that was such a very polite, nice negative review. That was very sweet of them, as opposed to the other comments online. But yeah, I mean, the fact that you liked it, we're having this conversation. The movie is a success. Like you saw it, and you didn't even. Know about five second films, so that is, that's the like the best thing ever because we figured only our fans would watch it and get it. So to hear that it's actually, you know, I I would say perfect strangers are are enjoying it is and discovering it is, uh, is a success. Yes, for me. Thank you.

Dave Bullis 35:20
Oh, you're very welcome. I mean, I mean, because it proved that you could do it. Because you know, you didn't take no for an answer. You, you, you threw together. You, I'm sorry, threw together, but you put together the Kickstarter. You know, you, you, you. I mean, because I, you know, I've been there too, Michael. You know, I know how hard it is to get you know movies and whatever, whatever else funded. Because you know you always get like you know 99 nos and then that one yes is what you're looking for you know, and and you have to just it's like an uphill battle like literally it's like you you play a game like what could go wrong today oh okay you know lead actor drops out I mean I mean I mean I mean you know you got Patton Oswalt in Duke Horner as well three which I thought was awesome.

Michael Rousselet 36:00
He is-he's amazing. He is a fucking saint. I love Patton. But how we got Patton Oswalt was he was a fan of five second films. He he tweeted out a bunch of our films saying he loved them, and we we flipped out. We were ecstatic, and so we tweeted back saying, "Hey, do you want to be in some? He said, "Absolutely. And then that was it. We set a time. He was free for an hour. We shot like three films in an hour, and and he had a great time. And he loved the. He thought they were hilarious. And every now and then he'd come back shoot some more. And then when he found out we were doing a Kickstarter, he donated the the price tier to be a co-producer and to guarantee a cameo in the film. It's like if you donate $2,000, you will make an appearance in the movie, and you'll get a co-producer credit. And we said, hey, thank you, we love you. So you you know legally now you have to be in our movie, and he goes. You you fucking better believe I'm in your movie. And we gave him, you know, he played the police chief, and he was awesome. We worked with him for one day, and you know, he paid to be in our movie. Like you can't, you can't get any nicer than that. He's the he's the fucking man. He's he's the he's such a stand up guy. I mean, you know, literally, he's a comedian. He's a great guy. Yeah, can't sing his praises enough.

Dave Bullis 37:26
You know, it's funny. One time, he was tweeting out some negative things about Philadelphia, and I retweeted it, and a bunch of people who followed me were like, "What are you doing, tweeting not negative stuff about Philadelphia for? Like, dude, it's all true. He was because he said like Philadelphia is the worst city in the world. I was like, "Yep, he's got that right. Retweet.

Michael Rousselet 37:46
Oh, it's fucking hilarious. It's great. Yeah. So you know, you just need that one. Yes. Just keep on, keep on plugging away.

Dave Bullis 37:55
And that's the thing that I think discourages a lot of filmmakers is you know when you're in that like that midpoint, because you know like mid 40s and mid 50s of hearing all the no's and we're gonna pass, I think that's where a lot of people, well, they probably quit before that, but they that's where a lot of people get. You know that a lot of people get into that valley. You know what I mean? It's like it's like hills and valleys. You know, and I think that's you know where people just sort of they give up. They go, "Look, I don't have time. I I might have a family. I might have uh you know I've got student loan debt. Uh, you know I got a car payment coming through, and they're just like, I don't have time to keep going around and trying to pitch this stuff. Uh, and then you know, and then they just sort of just put it away at a desk drawer somewhere, you know. And then, but yeah, that's why I was saying, you know, I think, Dude Bro Party Massacre Three is a success because you got it made, and I think anything, honestly, Michael, that gets made, I I think it has to be a success. And I know those movies, like like let's first let's take for example, Michael, The Room, which is a movie you know very well. I I you know that's you know I still think that's a success because the amount of movies that never get made are astronomical,

Michael Rousselet 39:04
And I-that's what I say. It's weird. I do a lot of-I've done a lot of interviews and talks about the room and lectures at colleges, and I-I always say the same thing. Like, say what you want to say about Tommy Wiseau. He made a fucking movie, and he finished it, and he released it and were watching it, and he could have pulled the movie and hid it from the public because of all the ridicule and people making fun of it. But he put his money where his mouth is, and he kept pushing it and letting people watch it, and that's that's brilliant. You know, he changed it from a an electrifying drama on the trail and he changes it to a quirky dark comedy. Like he rebranded it. He's that's brilliant. That's a success. He made a movie. So all those filmmakers out there that like to talk shit about you know Michael Bay or Tommy Rossell, it's like, well, are you fucking making anything? Then you can't really talk shit. Like, like fucking do it. Once join the, you know, once you join the club, then you can talk shit. I have a. I'm sorry. I think something might be coming up in a minute. I can hear like the door in the hallway. Oh, who's it gonna be?

Dave Bullis 40:23
It's almost like a horror movie, right? I know. See, who's it gonna be?

Michael Rousselet 40:25
Who's it gonna be? Oh, I guess no one. Oh yeah. All right, cool. The suspense was killing me. Yeah, I'm a film projectionist at USC, so I get to show films and I get to keep listening to lectures, which is fun. But it's it's like that's my office job, and I'm still writing and film and editing, so it allows me to do that while I work. So right, I'm just babysitting the booth for like the festival books. Anyway, cut that out or not, I don't care. All right,

Dave Bullis 40:55
I think it's funny. I think it's funny if I left that in. I accidentally just hit my mic, so I think I might. But I think it was funny though if I if I leave that in because that was pretty cool that it kind of turned to like another it turned to a horror movie right there.

Michael Rousselet 41:10
Someone's coming.

Dave Bullis 41:10
Someone said to get my.

Michael Rousselet 41:11
I'm in the booth. They kill the projectionist. Blood everywhere on the celluloid.

Dave Bullis 41:17
And and and we hear Michael get you. We hear you getting killed. You know, like this. I just leave it in the episode. I'm just like, all right, everybody. I guess, I guess Michael's dead. Yeah,

Michael Rousselet 41:27
Tommy. It's actually Tommy was so coming to kill me. I hear you talking about the movie again, huh? Yeah. And well, funny enough, with the room, we got Greg Cicero, who plays Mark, and he is in Dude Bro Party Massacre Three. Gregster. was the nicest guy, such a stand-up guy. There are a bunch of stand-up guys are in this movie, and and he, I became friends with him because of the room. He recognized me as like, hey, there's that fan that's been here since day one and started all that nonsense. Like, hey, this nice guy, and I just would see him at screenings. I ran into him at Vegas in like 2004 something or five, and you know this dude taps me on the shoulder, and he's like, "Hey, Michael, big smile, and I'm you know I'm a little drunk, and I'm kind of like, "Who is this guy? How does this guy know me? How do I know this guy? And then I was like, Oh my god, it's fucking Greg Cesterro because he had like the big Greg Sestero smile, and that's when it like registered, you know, from the room, and we just became friends. and And he was in some five second films, and and I said, Would you like to play a dude, bro, in Dude Bro Party Massacre three? And he was excellent. He was great. He's genuinely a good actor, you know. It's amazing what an actor can do when they have a good script with coherent lines and good direction. And he's he's great in it. And I love how he says, Greg says it's it's so refreshing to be proud of a movie you're in and happily tell people and promote it. He's he's yeah, he's the best. So whenever he does he does room screenings, he'll usually bring the Dude Bro Party Masaccre Three and do a double feature.

Dave Bullis 43:09
Well, that's really cool.

Michael Rousselet 43:09
Yeah, he's he's the man. He's he's the nicest guy in the world. I think probably a large percentage of of our screenings around the globe are because of you know Greg Sestero planting the seeds of Dude Bro, like he'll go to a screening and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, you're in Dude Bro, we'd love to see that. They watch the trailer and they go, "Oh shit, let's do a double feature. God bless that guy. But anyway, yeah, what the fuck are we talking about?

Dave Bullis 43:36
We were talking about just you know how how to actually a movie made and stuff. Oh yeah, it's good because you know

Michael Rousselet 43:41
I go on a room tangent and then I I hate my life.

Dave Bullis 43:45
Like, how did I get back there?

Michael Rousselet 43:46
I'm talking about the room again.

Dave Bullis 43:48
We were just talking. We were talking about good stuff. Now we're talking about the room again.

Michael Rousselet 43:53
I don't want that on my tombstone. It's like, well, that's why I want to. I think that's like the the scary thing that's chasing me. Is like I need to create because I, I don't want to be remembered as that guy that started the room phenomenon.

Dave Bullis 44:06
Yeah, you know, I I had a brief discussion about you with my interview with Robin Paris, and she was in the room.

Michael Rousselet 44:13
Yeah, she's she's great,

Dave Bullis 44:14
And because she's doing a like a a documentary called like the Room Actors. Where are they?

Michael Rousselet 44:19
There's a room documentary. I'm actually yeah yeah, and and we we talked about you because you know you found you know you walked into that midnight screening and we're like what the hell hell do we keep this going even midnight it was like a it was like 5o'clock 5p.m. at a theater in the valley I was like I saw a trailer for it at another theater because when once you rent a theater yeah you can show a trailer, and I saw it, and I was like, "What the fuck is this? I need to see this because it looked like a comedy, and it said it was a drama, and that conflict is like that's funny to me. I need to see this. So I saw it, and I dragged like 100 friends, saw it four times in three days. Yep, and then it ended. Of its theater run, but anyway, Dude Bro Party Massacre Three was such a challenge to make.

Dave Bullis 45:06
Yeah, I mean, because

Michael Rousselet 45:07
I was like, I don't want to talk about the room anymore. That's so sad.

Dave Bullis 45:12
It's like I I just keep bringing it back up. But but you know, so when you you actually did make Dude Bro Party Massacre Three, you know, did you know? Did you always want to release it through your own website, or were you hoping you know, you know, to to go another route with it?

Michael Rousselet 45:28
The dream was always like, okay, we wanted to play in theaters, but we're realistic and we know how the industry works and how how it's changed. Movies don't make money in theaters unless they're like in a theatrical run, unless they're big blockbusters or they're big stars in them, because of Netflix and Hulu and Amazon and all that stuff, it's changed. So we we were what we wanted to do was just take it to festivals and find a company to do distribution to just you know send out the DVDs, get it on Netflix, and we were happy with doing kind of these grassroots screenings. That's what we wanted to do. So when we wanted it to be in theaters, that with the intention of just taking it on the road and watching, and that's what we did a lot. We did a lot last year, and and we and we just showed it in Paris a couple weeks ago. The Alamo Draft House was fantastic. They kind of like took it on tour with us. We went all the way around Texas, went to Colorado, went to Virginia with Alamo. Yeah, just grassroots. That's that's how we were doing it. You know, it'd be fun if it was playing a week at somewhere in New York, but you know that's that's not gonna that's gonna you know we're not gonna pay for that. It's a waste of money because it's not gonna make any money. It's that's not how it works. So yeah, it's just grassroots screenings, and you know fans love it, and they either want to download it or buy it. I think we were before we released the downloads for the public, we were number two or three most torrented feature film that day on like Pirate Bay. It was like this weird like joy and like tears. It's like oh, we're like we're so excited. There's so many people downloading our movie illegally. That's so cool! Oh, so sad. You know, it's like, oh, I'm so honored.

Dave Bullis 47:28
You know, I actually, I had a friend of mine who would. What they did was whenever they went to like, well, I don't want to give any touring sites out, but whenever they went to one of these touring sites, they actually would contact the person who put up the torrent, and they would say, "Hey, look, you know, they wouldn't threaten legal action. What they would say is, you know, because it's anonymous anyway. So they would say, 'Look, if you take it down, we will mail you a copy of it, and you know, and a shirt or whatever. If you just take this torrent down, please, because it hurts us. And 50% of the time, he actually got a yes, and and it was like it was odd, and and you know I I mean it's an interesting strategy. I'm not you know I don't know if it's quote unquote the best, but it's very interesting how he was able to do that though.

Michael Rousselet 48:13
Wow, I never thought of it that way, huh? That's pretty nice. Oh, that's well. I mean, I mean, people are always going to download. You just can't escape it. That's just hell. Yeah, you know. And I, I kind of feel like, yeah, I've downloaded a lot of TV shows and stuff, and I was like, yeah, it's kind of justified. Like, I get it. Like, I'm just happy that people are watching it and enjoying it, and they want to have their friends watch it. I mean, as long as people are watching it, then that's a success. Like Roger Corman, I met Roger Corman, who is an amazing, like, the giant of filmmaking because he's made so many movies, and you know he's made some great films. He's made some schlock, but he, you know, he makes movies and he started so many careers. Joe Dante, James Cameron, and I asked him in an interview. It's like, how do you feel about such shows like Mystery Science Theater? People watch some of your movies and they just make fun of them and they kind of, you know, poke fun or tear them down. And he looked at me and he got really serious and he goes, "I'm a I'm a filmmaker. I'm a producer. My job is to make movies so they can be seen, and whether it's being seen at a drive-in, a movie theater, or a late-night television, as long as people are watching it, I've done my job. I'm like, oh shit, that's that's pretty, pretty, pretty on the note. That's correct, yeah.

Dave Bullis 49:40
So and now Dude Bro Party Masaccre Three is coming out on Blu-ray. It already did come out Blu-ray. april 1.

Michael Rousselet 49:45
We're trying to get. It's right now. It's just domestic. We're trying to work on hopefully finding finding international distribution. So we're kind of withholding sending it out internationally. So that we're trying to work on that strategy, but we're distributing it ourselves domestically. With you know, we're just shipping it out of our house.

Dave Bullis 50:21
You know, so I I got to remember to pick up a copy of that too. By the way.

Michael Rousselet 50:25
thank you. Oh God, thank you. Yeah, but yeah, it's it's fun. People are watching it. That's all I could ever ask for.

Dave Bullis 50:38
Yeah, and and you know and and that's what I mean you know and I I think you you know if you could and I know you're gonna you know use all this you know use the success again of Doobot Massacre three to sort of go into the next film whether that's Dude Bro Party Massacre four or actually so Michael you know what is actually your next project can you see can you talk about it or is it still

Michael Rousselet 50:59
I've written um I've written a bunch of scripts, so that's I'm kind of pushing those around. We'll see. That's it. I'm just writing a lot. A lot of the other gang of Five Second Films is is doing the same thing. They're writing, or they're working on other shows, and you know, some people are actually working for networks, like you know, for producing and content development, which is impressive. So we're all kind of like, I guess it was so traumatic of six years of just constantly making content with each other, and then the feature film that everyone's like, we just need a break, no more stuff online. Just like the internet has like consumed us for 10 years, basically, and we're kind of like, all right, we just need to like everyone just needs to like write and go to go to like a shelter and just just get over the shell shock. So yeah, everyone's just working on a bunch of stuff. Yeah, so I can't really say what because you know things yeah things are in the pipeline and things fall through.

Dave Bullis 52:02
So so Michael, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, I I know we're sort of almost running out of time, but I wanted to ask you, you know, your your writing style, you know, do you you know as you're writing, do you outline a lot, or you know, do you are you more of a person who writes a a pretty lengthy treatment, or so you know, how exactly do you do you uh you you know write your screenplays?

Michael Rousselet 52:20
Well, everyone does it differently. How I like to do it is I write. I just I kind of open. I guess you could say like a Google Doc, and I just write ideas. I have to go in knowing at the very least what story I want to tell, how I want it to end, or how I think it should end, and how I want it to start. So as long as I can figure out how I want it to, how I want to start, and how I want it to end, then that's when I start just throwing out ideas on a doc, and then then I kind of like put those ideas in chronological order. You know, because like the whole it's like five pages of just nonsense and stupid ideas. Then what I do is I take those stupid ideas and then you know arrange them chronologically and then start filling in the gaps of of sequential order of like okay well if they need to go here then they go to this scene is there anything in the middle I need to clarify and smooth over and then by the end of it I have what started off as a bunch of scattered ideas eventually turns into kind of like an outline treatment. I don't really, I don't really get the difference between a treatment and an outline. I guess the treatment is like really, really detailed and exceptionally long. But yeah, I just knock out a solid outline, and from there, then I, I start attacking it in script form. I also like doing note cards. My writing partner Eric Sandoval from Five Second Films also loves note cards, so he'll just like put note cards up on on a big wall and kind of so we can see everything. And he likes to do character stars. It's kind of like a a line graph of like character relationships, they kind of form a star or a triangle, and we like to figure out our rising action, like what's like the climax, what's the momentum building up to it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you just got to figure out who your who your characters and how what do you want to put them through, and how are they how they going to change or not change? They they at least have to learn something and be different and you know they have to be interesting. You can oh god I can ramble about writing

Dave Bullis 54:34
And believe me, Michael I I love to talk writing. I you know you know I I again screenwriting is like my-that's my special.

Michael Rousselet 54:43
How do you do it? Everyone does it differently. How do you do it, Dave?

Dave Bullis 54:46
I write a treatment that looks a lot like the journals of the serial killer from Seven, and it just is like, like if anybody ever saw this, they would be like, "What the hell?" Was basically, it's like you know, sometimes I just write almost like I'm writing a short story, and but it's not a short story though. It's like it's not really a novel either, but it's like a lot of you know different stuff. And then all of a sudden, I'll write like you know a slug line in the middle of the sentence, and I write like dialog that means absolutely nothing availing to me, and then you know we're going back, and now it's just you know it's like a narrative in the action lines. It's very odd, and then I usually get frustrated and throw it in the shredder, and then I come back and I start writing something else, and basically you know that's how I write though. Is I write the treatment style, the other stuff I was, I was kind of sort of kidding around with writing, writing it, throwing it in the shredder. But

Michael Rousselet 55:45
No, you can't throw. You can put it away, but you got to come back to it.

Dave Bullis 55:49
Yes, yeah. George R. Martin said that. He said, "Yeah, you have to finish everything you start.

Michael Rousselet 55:54
Yes. Well, everyone knows that the first draft is always garbage. So when you write a first draft, don't show it to anybody because that's that's just you just have to get it out. And what I've learned is you can't be afraid to write down a line that you know sucks. You just have to write it down. You got to write that scene that sucks. Like the character has to convince another character not to jump off that bridge. Just just write the scene, make them talk them down. It could be the shittiest, hokiest dialog in the world, and feel forced. Write it down and move on to the next scene, and then you have a completed draft, and you can go back with your bullshit detector and go through and be like, "This is bullshit. This is bullshit. I need to make this more interesting, and I need to make this more original. And you know, that's the first draft. So when someone hands you a first draft, it better be the third draft. You know what I mean? They they tell you we all lie. It's like hey, it's the first draft because we know there's going to be problems. But technically, it's like the second, third draft.

Dave Bullis 56:54
Yeah.

Michael Rousselet 56:54
With Dude BroParty Massacre three, we went through fuck hundreds of drafts, and the writing process was insane because there was like 12 of us because we were a big comedy group and it was the most I think the most intense part about the whole process other than the Kickstarter campaign was the writing process because there were so many jokes and it got to the point where we weren't even arguing about story we were arguing about what jokes which is funnier and you know what direction do we want to take the humor in this and that? So we went through a lot of fucking drafts, a lot of drafts.

Dave Bullis 57:29
You know, I'm really happy that all the fake commercials were kept in there because those I think really added that charm. Also, you know, because because you know, like it looks like somebody recorded this off TV, and I thought that was awesome too.

Michael Rousselet 57:44
You know that let me have the the kind of five second films tone of commercials, and and also like when you recorded, I don't know, kids kids each days even remember back in the day before DVR, where you use the VCR and you have to cut out the commercials if you wanted to have like if a movie's on, you wanted you didn't want to interrupt the flow. You try to cut out the commercials, but you'd always end up with a little bit of commercials. So that was a way that we could poke fun at the '80s and commercialism and and hokey commercials and and still have a five second film feel to the whole thing. That was a lot of fun.

Dave Bullis 58:20
And everyone, if you if you haven't seen it yet, I really recommend you check out Dude Bro Party Massacre three. And spoiler alert: there's no first two. So so if they so people, I'm sure we're probably gonna be like, "What the hell? I haven't seen the first two. A friend of mine actually said that he was like, "Why do I want to watch Dude Brody Massacre three? He's like, "I haven't seen the first two. I was like, "Trust me, it's it's part of the joke, and I put it in. And when he saw like oh was taped off taped off VHS, he was like oh okay I get it now. And then I mean he and he loved the fake commercials too.

Michael Rousselet 58:52
That's great, yeah. It was such a dangerous decision to name it the third film, you know. But we we wanted to do that. We thought it was-it's funny to us, and it-the third part of a trilogy. I mean, you know, out of a horror franchise, the third one is always when it gets a little ridiculous. Yeah, that we're like, fuck it, this is what we want to do. So it's a very difficult film to to market because people look at it and they'll be like, "What the fuck? First, but we catch you up to speed in the first five minutes, which is was one of my favorite things. Is kind of like telling the story of the first two movies that don't exist and building the mythology, and that was kind of an homage to Friday the 13th Four, where they tell the story through all the kill montages, and that that was directed by Joey Skoma. He directed the kill montage and the commercials, and and then there was myself and John Salmon, who was also the director of photography, and Tom Jacobson, who were the other three directors. We kind of approached it like the Zucker brothers. There's so it was kind of like a communal thing. We've worked together as five second films for years that we all know each other's style and we work great together. And it just didn't feel right to have one director in charge of everything because we're pretty democratic, which is great and also kind of a nightmare because sometimes you gotta, you know, gets to the point when you want to figure out a joke, you have to kind of listen to 10 other people, you know. But it helps because everyone brought their own unique style to the writing process, and like the movie is truly a five-second film collaboration, and the and I don't know if you actually know this, but Dubro Party Massacre Three actually originally was a five-second film, so we shot that in like 2009 as a joke, you know, just daily content and a agency company was kind of courting us, and they're saying you guys are really funny, but can you do anything longer than five seconds? So we made some sketches, and we made a joke trailer, and we made a joke trailer for Dubrow Party Master Three with no intention ever of doing it as a real film. We just did it as a as a joke, and and then years down the road, when we were getting serious about okay, what is our the feature film we want to do? And I think it was Joey Skoma said, "Let's do Dubro Party Massacre Three. I think that would be a hilarious movie. I said, "Yeah, like it's you know we're very we're a gory group, we have dark humor, and it just made sense. Like, all right, let's let's do this, and yeah. And then it took like two years to write it because we wanted to make sure it was fucking perfect. Perfect being bad, you know, like a bad, like a schlock B movie.

Dave Bullis 1:01:56
Well, because you know, Michael, it does. It takes a lot of talent to to do something that you know exactly looks like a B movie, you know it you know and and make sure that you know it it doesn't turn into something like I don't know uh because because like I don't know

Michael Rousselet 1:02:12
It has to be sincere you know you

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
Exactly sincere that's how I was looking that's what

Michael Rousselet 1:02:16
Otherwise have you ever seen the Lost Skeleton of Cadabra no I have not I seen a lot of. I hate that movie. I'm so disappointed by it because I saw the trailer a long time, and it's probably like two 2000 something, and it it's black and white B movie, kind of like about it's kind of like Ed Wood style, you know. It's like they're they're aliens, and then there's like a ghost and a walking skeleton, and it's all cheap, and the the trailer is fantastic. And then you watch the movie, you're like, "This sucks! This sucks so bad because it's trying hard to be bad, and it just there's no humor, and you know it feels forced, and it's just not sincere. It just it just doesn't feel like a sincere film. Like the why the room's so great is because it's very sincere. It's a very, you know, like he's pouring his heart out, and it's bad. Yeah. But with Dude Bro, we like you know Tom and Joey and I and we we love horror films. We love them. We love '80s horror films. So we wanted to have fun with it, but still have great gore and you know cheesy scares and like yeah. But you know the most important thing is like what's the story and and and and the characters and the problem with Dubro is like there's too many characters, but we still had to we still had fun telling them, and like you know, Brock is like his. He immediately tells you his motivation. I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to find out who murdered my dead my twin brother and get revenge. Like that's what he's done. That's what he's doing. It's a clear goal. He's like, oh, I'm here to find out who murdered my twin brother and get revenge. I'm not here to make friends, and of course, at the end, he makes friends. And the big joke that one of the smartest writing moves is Alec Owen had, and he became the head writer towards the end. He said the dude bros are terrible people. They're not the good guys. They're the bad guys. Motherface, who is the killer, is actually the hero and doing the right by killing these dude bros, and we're like, oh my god, you're right. That's that's the end of the movie. That's the third act. Is like these guys are monsters, and and that kind of cracked the code and opened up a lot of a lot of interesting ideas. It was great, like the big confrontation between Motherface and and Brent at the end came out of that idea. We're like, "Holy shit, this is this is how it's supposed to be. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:04:52
Yeah, that is a good piece of of writing advice because you know one thing I've I've learned too is. This writing teacher once told me that Dave, the antagonist of the film, is actually the person moving the film because it's their actions that cause a reaction from the protagonist.

Michael Rousselet 1:05:11
Absolutely, yeah. And the best villains are villains that don't think they're villains. You know, you know, like I mean, other than the horror film, you know, like you know, Jason. Jason doesn't know he's the villain. He's just doing it. He's getting revenge. You know, Freddy is evil, but he's having fun with it. You know, and that's what Motherface is. Like she's having fun with it. She's being a killer. She's getting joy killing it because she's enacting revenge because they killed her mother, and that's why she's Motherface. She wears the face of her mother, and yeah, she's she's she's actually right. The Dubros are terrible people, and and so the thing is, like, they're not likable characters.

Dave Bullis 1:05:53
Michael, I would definitely like to have you come back on sometime soon. You know, do a part two where we could even get even more into screenwriting, you know, and stuff like that. You know, some other guests have done as well, and it's really cool because we know one topic we sort of just hit on, and we end up coming back and doing like you know a part two type of deal.

Michael Rousselet 1:06:12
Yes, yes, that would be great.

Dave Bullis 1:06:14
So you know, well then, Michael, in closing, you know, is there anything that you wanted to say, or maybe thing anything you wanted to cover that we didn't get a chance to to sort of put a period at the end of this whole discussion.

Michael Rousselet 1:06:23
Okay. Yes. When you make your first film and when you write your first script that you know you're going to make yourself, don't have 40 speaking rules. Don't have 50 locations. Don't have animals in it. Don't have fire in it. Don't have water. Have people swimming in in a lake or or body of water, if you want to have union actors because you're gonna have to have insurance and all these things like stunt coordinators and pyrotechnics technicians and lifeguards and a water truck and you know like and we did all of that in Dude Bro because we were crazy and we wanted to make it our way. And it kind of was-it was a huge battle. So if you want to do your first film, just like three people and like in a couple locations, and just keep it simple. No kids got to get through studio teachers and all this shit. So if you don't have any money, shoot what shoot with what right with write for what you have. That's my advice. So the first film you're gonna do, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be Lawrence of Arabia. It can be very simple, like you know, short term 12 or something.

Dave Bullis 1:07:43
Yeah, you know, and that is very good advice because I did the same thing. You know, I once, you know, after I did my student film, my next film, I tried to do way too much and ended up needing needing you know squibs and stuff like that. I was and I and finally I said, "What the hell did I get myself into? It ended up just becoming a complete freaking mess. Yeah, and but that that is good advice.

Michael Rousselet 1:08:06
But if you want to fucking do it, and you you just have you just have to realize that it's not going to be easy, and it's you know just do it. If you want to do it, you got to do it, but you got to be willing to accept the bed that you have written,

Dave Bullis 1:08:22
Yes.

Michael Rousselet 1:08:22
So yeah, just you know, go out there and make movies. That's all I got to say. Just do it.

Dave Bullis 1:08:29
So, Michael, where can people find you out online?

Michael Rousselet 1:08:30
They can find me at mrrousselet, M R R O U S S E L E T, or at 5SF f five second films, and YouTube five second films or fivesecondfilms.com. But more importantly, dudebropartymassacre3.com to buy the DVD or Blu-ray if you are domestic, or you can download it on iTunes internationally or illegally if you want to be a dick about it. But the the iTunes, I mean the the DVD and the download on dudebropartymassacre3.com has a lot of extras, commentary, and a 45-50 minute featurette, and of the making up process. It's bonkers. You can see all the crazy shit we had to do. It's a crazy film, so I think you know if you open up a couple of beers and watch it with your friends, you're gonna have fun.

Dave Bullis 1:09:27
Yeah, and everyone, I will link to all of Michael's links in the show notes. Michael, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I was a big, I'm a big fan of Do Bro Pony Massacre three, and honestly, I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next.

Michael Rousselet 1:09:41
Thanks, dude. Really appreciate it, Dave. Thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 1:09:44
Oh, my pleasure, my friend. I will talk to you soon.

Michael Rousselet 1:09:46
Yeah, and if you ever want to talk more about writing, go ahead, hit me up.

Dave Bullis 1:09:50
I, I will. I believe me, I will.

Michael Rousselet 1:09:52
All right, rock and roll. Have a great one.

Dave Bullis 1:09:54
All right, take care, my friend. Bye bye.

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BPS 488: How The Asylum Makes Movies That Actually Make Money with David M. Latt

September 10, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Most independent filmmakers spend years trying to get one movie made. David M. Latt helped build a company designed to make movies continuously. As co-founder of The Asylum, the independent studio behind Sharknado, Mega Shark vs. Giant Octopus, Z Nation, and hundreds of other productions, David represents a very different side of filmmaking—one where creativity, production, distribution, marketing, and financial survival all have to operate together. His story is less about waiting for Hollywood to approve a project and more about constructing a system that allows filmmakers to keep working.

The Asylum didn’t begin with a sophisticated business plan. David and his partners had lost their jobs around the same time and simply knew they wanted to continue making movies. For years they worked out of an apartment, taking whatever opportunities came their way. The company initially released art-house films before creating relationships with major video retailers and eventually moving into genre filmmaking. One of the most important turning points came when they realized they couldn’t compete with larger distributors offering filmmakers substantial minimum guarantees. Instead of fighting for finished movies, they decided to make their own. An investor helped finance an initial group of low-budget horror projects, and the business gradually became a cash-flow operation where revenue from existing movies helped finance the next slate.

That production model explains one of the most interesting philosophies David shares: The Asylum doesn’t necessarily think of itself as making “small movies.” It thinks of itself as making large concepts under strict financial limitations. Rather than designing scripts around four characters trapped in a room because that’s cheap, the company embraces monsters, disasters, submarines, oceans, visual effects, massive action, and whatever else the story requires. “We’re not making a low budget film. We’re just making a big budget film on a budget,” he explains. The limitations are real, but instead of automatically shrinking the concept, the production team searches for creative ways to achieve it.

The other half of the equation is financial discipline. Because The Asylum operates as both producer and distributor, the company frequently knows what a movie is worth before production begins. If a film has already been pre-sold for a certain amount, David’s job as producer is brutally straightforward: make the movie for less than the guaranteed revenue while accounting for company overhead. That sounds obvious, yet it runs against a filmmaking culture where budgets frequently expand based on creative ambition rather than realistic revenue. The Asylum survives because the production budget follows the economics of the marketplace. As David puts it, they haven’t lost money because he simply refuses to spend more than they have.

That buyer-driven approach also changes how projects are developed. The Asylum usually doesn’t sit around brainstorming random movie concepts or waiting for writers to submit scripts. Networks, distributors, and buyers tell them what kind of content they need, and The Asylum develops projects specifically for those opportunities. If a network wants a movie involving sharks and a storm, the company manufactures the screenplay internally rather than hoping someone happens to submit exactly that idea. This is why David repeatedly explains that The Asylum rarely accepts unsolicited scripts. The creative process begins with understanding what the buyer needs, then finding filmmakers and writers who can turn that requirement into something entertaining.

No example demonstrates the unpredictability of filmmaking better than Sharknado. By the time the movie arrived, The Asylum had already produced around 150 films. Nobody inside the company believed this particular project would become a cultural phenomenon. David admits he initially didn’t fully understand the screenplay and worried that its comedic tone was too far outside the company’s usual approach. Casting was difficult because actors didn’t want their names associated with something called Sharknado. The production even used another working title while trying to secure talent. Yet Sci-Fi strongly believed in the concept, David trusted the buyer, and the movie went forward. What looked like another routine production became the project that transformed public awareness of The Asylum.

That unpredictability is also why the company keeps producing. David’s philosophy isn’t built around finding one perfect film that changes everything. It’s about repeatedly stepping to the plate. After approximately 150 movies, one happened to become Sharknado. The lesson isn’t that filmmakers should deliberately manufacture ridiculous viral concepts; it’s that nobody truly knows what audiences will embrace. The more sustainable strategy is to control costs, understand the marketplace, keep creating, and give yourself multiple opportunities for a project to connect.

The conversation becomes even more relevant when David discusses The Asylum’s expansion into television. As DVD, Blu-ray, and traditional VOD economics weakened, the company recognized that audience behavior was moving toward episodic content and binge viewing. Rather than stubbornly protecting the old model, The Asylum adapted, eventually producing Z Nation for Sci-Fi. That transition required operating at a larger scale, but it reflected the same philosophy that built the company in the first place: follow where the audience and the buyers are going, remain flexible, and don’t become emotionally attached to a distribution model simply because it worked yesterday.

Perhaps the most practical advice David offers has nothing to do with sharks, budgets, or visual effects. It’s about relationships. The film industry, he argues, is built through people. Go to festivals. Attend seminars. Go to parties. Shake hands. Meet filmmakers, producers, executives, writers, and crew members. Sending resumes only goes so far. Opportunities often emerge because someone remembers that you were reliable, enthusiastic, professional, and ready when the right project appeared. The Asylum itself grew through relationships, changing markets, unexpected deals, and the willingness to say yes when an opportunity made sense.

In the end, David M. Latt offers independent filmmakers something far more useful than a formula for creating another Sharknado. He provides a case study in sustainability. Know what your movie is worth. Control the budget. Build infrastructure. Understand your buyers. Adapt when markets change. Surround yourself with people who know how to execute. And above all, keep making movies. Because in independent filmmaking, the project that changes everything is often impossible to predict until after you’ve made it.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:43
On this week's show, I have David M. Latt. David is the co-founder of the Asylum, one of the most prolific independent film studios around. They have won dozens of awards and created such movies as Sharknado, Sharknado Two, Sharknado Three, and the upcoming Sharknado Four: The Fourth Awakens. We're going to talk all about how the Asylum comes up with their ideas and how they market it and how they make money. So here we go with David M. Latt.. Hey, David, thank you very much for joining us today.

David M. Latt 2:25
Oh, sure. Hey, thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:27
My pleasure, my friend. You know, you know. So, David, you know, as you know, the co-founder of the Asylum, you've produced all these films. You know, you have such a, you know, a really, really long IMDb. As I was looking at, I didn't even know you produced that many movies. So, you know, I wanted to ask you know, David. You know, how did you get started in the film industry?

David M. Latt 2:45
Oh goodness, I lost a bet. It's a well. I have a very, very, very boring story about that, which is that I just always made movie. You know, I'm the the nerdy kid that back in the 70s, yes, I'm that old. That had a Super 8 camera and made a lot of short films. And as my wife likes to point out, the Goldbergs, the TV series, is my family life. That's exactly it. And just always had a passion for directing, producing, you know, telling stories in this medium, and when I was 12, I saw Star Wars, and that kind of changed my life. Going, wow, you could actually make money in this business, and you know, tell stories at a mass level, and and that kind of just really focused me very cutely to to make movies, which for some strange reason in this life, I won the lottery, and I'm allowed to do the things that I love to do, which which I know is very rare. And trying to take advantage of it, but I kind of do. But that that's it. I mean, I'm not trying to. I'm not curing cancer and doing important things. I'm just making movies, being very self-indulking.

Dave Bullis 4:03
So, did you go to film school?

David M. Latt 4:06
I did. I have a degree, so I'm allowed to make movies. I I went to Loyola Marymount University, and I graduated there with some kind of degree. I can't remember what it was, and I think it was film production something, and here I am today.

Dave Bullis 4:25
You know, you mentioned permission to make movies because you know Lloyd Kaufman. When I bought his filmmaking DVD set, it actually came with a degree from Troma University, and he's just like, just write your name in there. He's like, just write it in with pen and hang up on your wall, and you can make movies too.

David M. Latt 4:41
I think Lloyd is probably the greatest human being in the world. So yeah, I that's that's awesome. That's awesome.

Dave Bullis 4:46
You know, I actually had him on the podcast.

David M. Latt 4:49
I don't doubt it. Actually, had him for dinner a couple weeks ago. So it's it's one of those weird things. Like, hey, do you hang out together with filmmakers? And and you look back and you're yeah. Kind of do. It's really a neat, you know, experience to be able to share those moments with people that you put on a pedestal and admired for so long, and and you look back and go, wow, they're friends, and Lloyd is his friend and his wife, and it, you know, he's he's the real deal. He's an auteur, an independent filmmaker, a guerrilla filmmaker, really enthusiastic, as you know, and and you know, genuinely just a sweet, sweet man that really loves what he does, which is it's invigorating. It gives you know gives me kind of this renewed energy, and I think he's like 103 years old. So you know, it's like to to do that at his age. It's crazy,

Dave Bullis 5:42
And now you have another story for when when you see him the next time. You could say, "Hey, remember that shitty podcast we were both on?

David M. Latt 5:48
Yeah, and they'll say like CNN, and I'll go, "No, no, it wasn't CNN. It was another one. So

Dave Bullis 6:04
The other shitty podcast we were on.

David M. Latt 6:04
Yeah, yeah, that one, that one. Bullis, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got

Dave Bullis 6:05
Lloyd is an absolute great guy, but David, you know, just to go back to you know to your career, I wanted to ask you know when did you decide that you wanted to start the asylum?

David M. Latt 6:08
It was that easy when I got fired from my day job. So my partner and I, David Romali and I, both worked at different businesses. He worked at a company called Village Roadshow, and I worked at a company called Shmera Multimedia, and I was head of production for that company. And I was there for a couple years, and I got fired. And I don't know why. If I was sober, I would have known why, but I wasn't, and so to this day, I still don't know why, but but and David got fired too at the same time. Except his fire firing was much more legitimate. Warner Brothers bought out the company and then went on to produce The Matrix with Village Roadshow, and you know they've done everything. But so we kind of were let go at the same time, and so we had previously made a couple films, like a film every year and a half, and said, "You know what? Let let's do this legitimately. Let's get into this and and start a company together, and we could actually start making movies. So we did that with another partner, Sherry Strain, who also worked at Village Roadshow. So it was the three of us, and we worked out of David's apartment for the first I don't know four years, just doing whatever we could. You know, we were young, we needed the money, and started you know actually releasing art house movies was our first kind of foray into the into the business side of business. But that was 19 years ago. That puts things in perspective.

Dave Bullis 7:42
So when when you first lost your job, and you know, I'm sure you know you and your partners were were sort of sitting around the table, so you know discussing what to do. Did you just decide? You know, did you make a list like, hey, this is the resources I have available now. This is how much money I have, and just try to go from there.

David M. Latt 7:59
No, we're not that smart, you know. We we just we had we all three of us had a passion of making movies, and we knew that's we wanted to do. And I think had we put together a real plan, it would have been we would be a lot more successful now because I think we kind of started around the same time Lionscape did, except they had a plan. So if you want to put things in perspective about where things, how things could have been, but you know, I think Netflix started around the same time too. It's one of those things of you know we just wanted to not be homeless, so we just you know I I immerse myself, and I'm a workaholic, so I do, and and I love making movies. So on on a set, I've done everything and continue to do everything in a lot of ways, and and enjoy every aspect of it. And you know, from catering to boom op to you know camera, whatever it is, I touched it in some particular way. So you know, it didn't matter what we were doing as long as we're making movies, and initially it was I was I was an editor, so I was cutting trailers and promo things for clients that Ramali was bringing in. David Romawi is more the business side of things, and I'm more the creative part side of things. As I always like to say, he finds the money, I I spend the money, and we both enjoy what we do. So he would find work, and I would do the work. And you know, and that's kind of the way it went. He found he he kind of got this great opportunity where his old boss's old road show started a thing called First rights, which was being set up in the native country in Australia, first-time filmmakers with an exclusive output every month to a one of the largest video distributors. In Australia, they were looking. They were looking for an American partner. So David O'Malley part became that bridge between Australia and America, and we created a an output deal with Hollywood Video, which was the second largest chain in America at the time. And every month, we would release art house movies from first time filmmakers to the tune of about six to 10 every single month, and that increased to 15 to 20 at a certain point. We had hundreds of titles. It was a very successful program for about three or four years, and that was what our life was. And what got us back into film production is that when we saw the writing on the wall, that was kind of waning. We needed to kind of diversify. We went to Blockbuster and started releasing with Blockbuster, not with First Life. They said, "Look, if you can come up with a film a month, you know, for us to distribute on the horror side of things, the genre, not the art house, we'll take them. And so we started finding movies. But the problem was we we were competing against Lionsgate and other big companies that were offering minimum guarantees to filmmakers that we couldn't do, so we couldn't come up with a product. And at a certain point, we went, "Well, you know, we're filmmakers. Let's try and find an angel investor to bankroll specific movies for Blockbuster, these cheap horror films. And we did. We found someone to give us, I think, half a million dollars, and that bankrolled the first like 10 movies. And by that time, because we were releasing a film every single month, it you know caught up to you know after about five or six months, it caught up to the investor and to us. We were cash flowing our films, and so for the first 10 years of our of our business, like we were a cash flow company primarily, where money coming in would go to fund the next project going out, and we're still to that degree, some somewhat to that degree. Although we're a little more financially sophisticated at this point with all the employees we have and the products that we make and everything else, but fundamentally the same kind of business, but yeah, we what I think kept us alive and the doors open is that we were very nimble and very flexible to opportunity that came our way, and it was rare that we said no to an opportunity. It's you know you just never know where those are going to take you, so you know, our goal as a good druggie was to always be taking drugs in the sense, and the drug being film, and to you know just always keep that process going, and and that led us into the business that we're in now. And it's not for everybody. Sherry ultimately left the company because she actually wanted to make, I guess, quality films, and and saw herself more, you know, in the art house world or bigger bigger shows, which is fantastic. And she left in about 12 years ago, and then we brought in a guy named Paul Bales. We still don't know what he does, but he does. Oh, and he's looking at me right now. So Paul Bales used to work for SAG for about 10 years over there, and came into the asylum, became a partner at the asylum simply because he just slept with the right people. Because Paul and and Romawi were fellows with friends in Michigan, growing up in Michigan, also with the same background of making movies when they were young, and Super 8 cameras and all that stuff. You know, we all share that kind of same initial passion. And Paul's been very invaluable to the or valuable to the company. He's the guy who says no. He acts as kind of our CFO to everything, and you know really regulates how things are done, so you know that kind of control has really, you know, aggressively grown the company in in very wonderful ways. Because we're not just out, you know, partying and being crazy and wild. We're we're actually being responsible human beings that have a payroll and insurance, and and you know, he made it legit, which is kind of cool. I just answer really long, don't I? No, yes and no. I'm sorry, yes and no. That's it for now on.

Dave Bullis 14:13
There's a funny side note between yes and no. I had a friend of mine. He he interviewed. Remember Bismarcky?

David M. Latt 14:18
Well, of course he was in Sharknado too.

Dave Bullis 14:21
That's right, he was. He actually interviewed him for his podcast, and and he said Biz literally answered everything with yes or no because my friend shot himself in the foot right out of the gate. The first thing he says is, "Hey, remember you say she's just a friend? And Biz goes, "Yes. He goes, "But I've done other things besides she's just a friend, and through the rest of the podcast, he's just answering yes or no. And my friend was like, "Can you elaborate? And Big was like, "And Bizman was like,

David M. Latt 14:49
Well, as a no, yes or no. And I'm sure, I'm sure, with Biz was more like, "Yeah, no, no, yeah." Oh man, I don't have a year job.

Dave Bullis 15:05
On your IMDb, I know you mentioned that you know the Asylum. No movie has ever lost money that from the Asylum. I mean, you know, I wanted to ask you. So, using that that that structure of you know never losing money, you know, do you write the script with a producer's hat mainly, so that way you know, like, okay, look, I don't, I'm not going to include things that are just way too outlandish, and I can't, I can't actually, we we can't actually do, or is, or do you sort of do that at the later point? So you're sort of always making sure that the movie don't sort of get all, you know what I mean, like out of control.

David M. Latt 15:39
Okay, so there's a couple things going on there, so this will also be another long answer. So just be prepared. You can go to the bathroom. I'll just keep talking. Which is, if you've ever seen one of our films, we do not limit ourselves with oh, this has to be four actors in a room talking about you know the monster outside in the hallway. That will never happen. And when people, you know, try and solicit scripts or pitches, it's like, oh, it's a perfect asylum movie. It's four guys in a room talking about a monster, and you know, the closet. It's like that. It's obvious you've never seen an asylum film because we never go there. I mean, we, you know, I don't think we've ever had the discussion of you can't do it, which, you know, it's part of the charm of the asylum films that you watch because they they really go pretty far, you know, with with everything, concepts, execution, story wise, and you know it's you can't really contain it. You don't. We're not making a low budget film. We're just making a big budget film on a budget. So you know, and we'll figure out a way to do it. We have you know at this point in our careers, we have everything's in house. So we have a whole room full of visual effects artists, and we have a whole room of sound designers. We have a whole room of editors. We have a whole room of everything. So you know, there's nothing that we really can't do. We just run out of time sometimes. So you know, may look a bit cheaper. We may be cutting corners here. There are tricks we do to make it look bigger when it's really not bigger, and so we can't afford it. So we never story-wise limit ourselves to anything. And in our in our, the only time we ever really felt nervous was doing Titanic Two, because we knew doing these big ocean sets and doing water were very difficult for us. We hadn't done them well in the past, and and I just was looking at going, really Titanic Two? We, you know, my partners had free sold it, and that was film we were making, and I was really nervous about you know doing it, but I'm like, no, we're gonna still we're gonna still jump into it, we're still gonna try, and I think Titanic Two is a success story, certainly just the way it sold and all that stuff, but just story-wise, the fun story, and it's a big story, and it looks great. I'm very proud of the film, and you know, it's because we didn't limit ourselves, and we made it all work. We had tanks. We were drowning people. We shot at the Queen Mary, which is out here in Los Angeles, to have that look. We shot in the submarine. We shot, you know, it's like, and yet we still didn't spend any more money than we had, and that kind of leads into why we haven't lost any money. You know, the asylum is very rare in the business. Usually, it's your distributor, your sales agents, or your production company, and they don't mix. We're all those things. Forget the sales agents, but we're we're distributor and producer, which make the a studio. I mean, we're the the only history between us and like the majors is we don't have a rodent for a mascot. We don't have an amusement park. I mean, which is really where you make the money. But it's we we do everything they do, which means that we pre-sell things, you know, to our to what we make, and so if we know that a film is going to make a million dollars because we pre-sold it, it's my task as a producer not to make it any more than that million dollars or less because we have whatever our overhead is. So if our overhead is another 100,000. So if I don't make it, if I make it for more than $900,000, we're screwed. We've lost money, and or whatever the budget is-half million, quarter million, 2 million, 5 million. But I have my constraints. Those constraints are limiting, but they're also really exciting too because it makes you have to really think how to produce a show for no money, and when I say no money, you're like picking up. Well, you just said a million dollars. Well, we shot films for 15,000. We've shot films for 100,000. You know, half a million. I mean, we've gone all over the place up to you know a few million dollars with the Sharknado series. And then certainly our TV series ain't cheap. It's cheap in the television standard of things, but not cheap for the very best endeavor. So we haven't lost money because I won't spend more than we have. It's a really odd concept. It's not the way the film business works. Then we get into big arguments with other people about it, in you know, in the studios and and whatnot. But it or other producers that want to produce at a bigger level. But it's just us. I mean, at the end of the day, we're still working out of, you know, mentally we're still working out of an apartment, and trying to live paycheck to paycheck. It's just now we have a staff of 42 that have insurance and and pension and health and payroll and you know two big studios and sound stages and equipment and all that stuff, and and you know it's a little bit bigger, but it's still the same feeling of we have to make X amount of money in order to keep the doors open. We've been lucky; we've had some great breaks and great opportunities over the last you know number of years, and so we've been able to keep people employed, and then we produce two films a month, including and and then on top of that TV series. So you know that's another 50 to 100 people every month. It's great. It's great to surround yourself with people that are very passionate about things and and love the the business and and want to succeed. Are you back from the bathroom yet? Should I wait? Yeah, I actually I just got back. Actually, okay, okay. Then you're the plus.

Dave Bullis 21:45
Yeah, it's actually it's down the hallway. So I got it. I was thinking about it.

David M. Latt 21:49
I get it, and I appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 21:51
Yeah. So you know, Dave, I wanted to ask. You know, when when you know you're making films, you know, obviously you know you were talking about your criteria and everything like that. But I mean, do you have a lot of brainstorming sessions where you kind of just want to come up with, you know, maybe something like, you know, someone's never seen before, or you know, do you sort of have like a people meaning like people in a room just sort of throwing out different ideas, and when finally something finally, you know, hits, you know, you sort of start developing that idea.

David M. Latt 22:17
No, we're very boring. I mean, let's let's be very clear. We're, I mean, we we are because you know the networks, our partners, our buyers tell us what to make. We don't. That's why we don't take pitches, and that's the one thing. It's like you know, in Twitter, and I've started to get much more active on my Twitter page. You know, I'll get at least 10 to 20 solicitations a day, going, hey, I wrote a script, or I have a novel, or I have an idea, and I have to say, look, we don't do that. We don't take. We're probably only student count. We don't take pitches. We don't take submissions. We don't read novels. We we don't care because when sci-fi tells us to go put a make a film about a shark in a storm, we're not going to have that script in the ready. We have to go manufacture that script. We turn around to our writers, our development team, and we produce that. We we find it. We we we we make it. So it's very very rare that someone comes to us with a project. The only time I can think that it really happens and happened successfully would be Nick Carter with Dead Seven, where he, you know, came to us and put it, you know, fricking Nick Carter. You know, it's it's hard to say no. Plus, he bought us lunch. You know, we're gonna we're gonna say yes anyway. But he said, "Look, I'm a huge fan of the asylum. I'm a huge fan of of the genre, the zombies genre, and I'm gonna come to the table with some money. I'm gonna come to the table with all my Backstreet Boy band members, and I'll get some NSYNC guys, you know, and and I'm going to give you a genre that you could sell, which is zombies. Now we wouldn't have gone forward if if we didn't turn around at that point to sci-fi and said, "Hey, look, we have this particular project. We don't necessarily do this, but this you know kind of came to us. Are you interested? And they said, "Yes. If they said if they would have said no, then we wouldn't have done it because we're just not in that business to to take scripts and and solicitations and submission. But we found a partner that was willing to kind of say yes, we will give this film a home at the end of the day and and promote it and do what we're going to do. So that's when we were able to work with Nick and to make it happen, and you know, I'm really happy that we did. I'm very proud of that film too. I think it came out really nice. Now, when you say, you know, where the where's the creative elements come into this thing, and you know, the fun and the rolling up the sleeve, that happens after the script is written, when you know you you've given the studio or your partner, what they want on this page, which is great, and then you get to talk to the filmmaker about what the style is going to be and how we're going to approach this and what we're going to do and and what's unique about the the the show that we're going to do. I mean, I the one thing that that I think you you can't look at the asylum movies that are all cookie cutter in the same films because. We hire tours, and we hire real, you know, people with strong vision and people that really want to to create something that unique and fun and interesting and not just cookie cutter and you know master shop close and close stuff. I mean, they they're really trying to make something special, and so that's when you really get into it and go, how do we make this special and unique and fun for the audience and and and enjoyable while maintaining what the story lines would be for our buyer and and make that happen? I'm you know I'm a firm believer that you know yeah you have a thriller and you know the you know heroine and the villain whatnot but you know you have those structural things where you can really do crazy stuff. You know, go go go nuts and go crazy. I mean, there's no reason not to. The audience wants to see it; they want to be engaged, and the filmmaker wants to do it. They want to be engaged, and you have to kind of know your audience too. I mean, we're gonna we're gonna go nothing crazy on you know, if Lifetime wants, we do a lot of stuff for Lifetime. But you know, we have to keep it in the in in the realm of Lifetime. You know, we can't shoot a black and white and you know close up of a of vase and go that's your thriller. You know, you have to you know know the audience a little bit. But otherwise, you know, these guys all want to have you know make a really engaging movie, and and that's where we have fun with the toys and get into the creative part of it.

Dave Bullis 26:26
So I have to ask David, what did Nick Carter buy you for lunch?

David M. Latt 26:29
Pizza. He actually oh nice came in and and got everyone from the office pizza. Came in with Cater, and it was he wines and dined everybody. So he couldn't say no. You know, it was it was a very unique approach to it to to getting our attention. But and in truth, we told you didn't have to do anything. You know, we're we're all old enough where Bash Street Boys and that that group was a big deal and still is. And Eddie just a super nice guy. So you know, it's it's hard to say no to to Nick.

Dave Bullis 27:03
Yeah, I was gonna say I'll make sure to edit that out because in case he wants to buy you pizza again, you know, I should probably

David M. Latt 27:08
Doesn't have to. You don't.

Dave Bullis 27:13
You briefly mentioned Sharknado, and you know when when when that movie came out when Sci-Fi Channel came to you about you know putting sharks in a storm. Did you ever imagine that it was going to sort of hit as well as it did?

David M. Latt 27:26
Yeah, we're fricking geniuses. We we know everything, and it's really weird. We just we we're 100% on everything. You know, no. By that by by coming main shark nano, I think we made 150 movies, and shark. was just one of them, and it was stupid. And I, you know, the first to admit that I did not understand the script, I didn't get it. And but Sci-Fi loved the script when it was written, and they were just like they couldn't get enough of the script. And and so my my role as a producer is not to get in the way, you know, of what the buyer was. And so sometimes I push back, but I was so lost with it. I'm like, how does this work? And he goes into the shark and the the chainsaw because we don't make comedies as much as you you you might want to think that we make comedies. Now we do in the sexy comedy, but we really, you know, lean heavily in the sexy, not the comedy. But on all these monster shows and creature shows, everyone takes it very seriously. There's no one's winking to the crowd, to the audience, and you have Sharknado, which is a huge wink, and it can be played that way certainly. And on the script, it reads comedy, and I'm like this. We got it. I I was also I had ages of notes to get back there and really kind of get more serious, more grounded, and and more believable and authentic and everything else. But because sci-fi loved the script so much, I completely backed off and said, "All right, well, this is our buyer, and they want this, and they love it. So let I'm not going to push the issue. And I really didn't think much of anything. And we had a bitch of a time casting it because no one wanted to be in a film called Sharknado. Tara Reid signed up first, but I don't even know if she even knew that she was in a a film called Sharknado, and that's not to say that she, you know, I know where the jokes are with that, but she's a busy person, and I think her her people just kind of said, "Look, you're doing this film; they're going to pay you X amount of money. You know, you're in it for a week. Just go and shoot this thing. It's good, you know, money that when you go to Barbados, you could, you know, spend on bikinis and mai tai And so I'm sure for hers that was just a quick and easy pay thing. But we couldn't find the lead, and we went through in in the history of the of the asylum from then and in that from beginning until even now, we've never had to push a title, you know, push because of cash. And we had to do that for Sharknado. We could not find a lead for Sharknado because no one wanted to be the film called Sharknado. So ultimately, we retitled it Dark to a film called Dark Skies, and repackaged it. We had previously even gone to Ein Zeering, but he turned us down. But we call the Dark Skies, and we got Hein Zeering. We paid him a lot more money than we, you know, at first on the first offer. And halfway through it, the show, they heard rumors that it was actually called Sharknado, and I instayed in this trailer and called his agents that I want off the show, and they all the capmates said we are not going to be. And I got calls from the agents and lawyers, managers going, "You cannot call this film Sharknado. We will not allow you to. If you want these actors to be in this film, we basically our threat was all right. Then they're running in. We'll recap. We'll redo the whole thing. But you know, we're we're like you know basically actually the the our our stand was we don't know what it's going to be called, which is true because sci-fi could have changed it to anything. That's not up to us. It's up to sci-fi. If they want to call it, you know, this is the craftiest film in the world. They can call it that. You know, that's up to them. We're and we're not gonna, you know, you know, pigeonhole them into what the title is gonna be. So, you know, there's a chance to call it Dark Sky. There's a chance they're gonna call it Sharknado. There's a chance they're gonna call it Shark in the Storm. Who knows what they're gonna call it? But let's go back to work. So it took a few hours, but everyone went back to work. But they were really pissed off that it was called Sharknado. I think the only one that wasn't upset was John Hurd. I think you know he got it from the get go. He was excited that it was called Sharknado. He thought that this was going to be a big hit. You know, you talk to him and he he knew it all, which is which is great. He probably does or did at the time because the man's insanely smart, and you know he's been in the business forever, so he he probably knew that we had lightning in the bottle. But he might have been the only one. I don't think anyone else did. I think everyone just looked at it as a either a forgettable movie that no one's gonna you know give a rat ass about, or you know it's gonna destroy their career. I mean, those were the only two choices, not a film called Sharknado.

Dave Bullis 32:24
It's it's like snakes on a plane when they were going to change the name to like you know, the terror on flight, whatever. Right. And then it became back to snakes on a plane.

David M. Latt 32:34
Yeah, and I mean, I know that happened with with a film we did called Mega Shark versus Giant Octopus. Debbie Gibson had never really done a film before, and her manager basically said, "Look, just do this film. No one will care. It'll be a forgettable movie. You know, at least then you'll have something on your resume, and you'll move on. And for us at the time, Mega Shark versus John Oxyvus was a big film we'd ever done. It became huge cult success. Not like Sharknado. Nothing's like Sharknado, but but big enough. We're like, oh my gosh, this is phenomenal! You look at us for a Jeopardy question and a crossword puzzle in New York Times, and this is bizarre and fun. And not knowing that Sharknado was right around the corner, we thought that that would be on the in the obituary. The producer of Mega Shark was during Octopus died today suddenly, but yeah, but that'll definitely do Sharknado. Maybe the nations. I don't know.

Dave Bullis 33:33
Now, now Sharknado Four is due out, I believe, in June. Correct?

David M. Latt 33:37
July 31.

Dave Bullis 33:39
Ah, July 31. So, is is there anything? I know you can't go into into specific details, but is there is there any even little tidbit that you you know the you can sort of mention on the show right now?

David M. Latt 33:50
Yeah, there will be sharks, there will be tornadoes, there will be ironserri Probably all the spoilers I could give you. You know, it's a challenge.

Dave Bullis 34:03
I do explain it all, by the way.

David M. Latt 34:05
It's a challenge because you know Thunder the writer has set the bar so high with all the fun gags and the fun things and the tweetable moments and whatnot. So you know you never want to go into these projects trying to do less than what the last film was, so you know I I hope that we got there. I think that we did. I think there's some really fun, like holy crap moments in in the film. We're done shooting. We're just editing now, and it's I think it's coming together really quite fun. I mean, it's it's you know, but how do you top sharks in space? I think we have an answer to that. So hopefully, the audience will agree. And I do like the title, the the Fourth Awakens. Yes, that that was courtesy of Sci-Fi.

Dave Bullis 35:00
I may make sure to link that in the show notes as well. That the premiere of Sharknado Four, and that will be on sci-fi, correct?

David M. Latt 35:08
Right, sci-fi. It's a Sunday night this year, which is I think really exciting. I think they're leaning into the family time. I think they, you know, after doing a lot of kind of who watched the show, they understand that it's really a wide range. It's not their typical sci-fi audience, you know, like 50-year-old men that are longing for Stargate. I mean, it it it it really hits a big swath of demographics. From I mean, we have so many kids that are Sharknado fans. So many kids. Oh my God, my kids haven't even watched it. I mean, it's they haven't, and they're like 25 years old. No, they're not. But it's it really ranges on the age thing. So I think Sunday night's a perfect night for it. Very excited. I think you know they're going to pull the stops out. They're going to do a lot of fun stuff. It's it's great that that they're still supporting the show after four years-it's bizarre. In fact, you know how much support they're putting into it. But we're very grateful, and they're amazing partners.

Dave Bullis 36:09
And just like your Twitter Twitter bio, you mentioned your kid in your Twitter bio. You have, of course, my kids tell their friends I work at Walmart.

David M. Latt 36:18
Right. I think they would like that better because they would get the swag, you know, the pajamas and the shirts and stuff. They like wearing that stuff. Like I said, they haven't seen my movies, but they do like you know wearing Sharknado shirts. That's for sure.

Dave Bullis 36:32
Yeah, I I saw the Sharknado pop vinyls, and I was like, wow! I was like, this movie has really arrived. And I even had Andrew Schaefer on on the podcast, and he wrote the book "How to Survivor Sharknado,

David M. Latt 36:43
Right! And that was a New York Times bestseller. For God's yeah, it was crazy, crazy. Yeah, the the you know it's it's it's it's it's you know as my partner Paul always says, it's like prior to Sharknado, you tell people what you do, and you tell them you know like oh great what films you produce and they look you like you know you talking in a foreign language but at least you can say Sharknado and everyone kind of goes oh okay yeah I haven't seen it but I heard about it which is which is great you know how many filmmakers get that opportunity you know we've made a lot of movies, and and just it's it's fun to play in that space and and and whatnot. But even even Thunder kind of kicked me in the nuts with it and said, "Well, look, you get you go to the you go to bat 150 times, you're bound to hit a home run. Okay, thanks.

Dave Bullis 37:35
We mentioned this briefly about one of your other projects, was which was which is Z Z Nation, and you know we I've actually had Doctor Murch on the podcast, Lisa Cornato, and you know I did you know think that it was very interesting that you know you know the Asylum did make a TV show because like you said it is expensive because you know instead of just being you know one product like a Sharknado it's you know it's episodic you know there's you know there's so many episodes per season. So what I wanted to ask, you know, is you know, you know, what was the impetus to start a a TV show by the Asylum?

David M. Latt 38:08
Well, we've always been we've been recently circling that space because that's where the world's going. I mean, what three years ago you had 200 TV series that were available now. There's over 500. I mean, the the I mean, there's a lot of content out there, and everyone's turned to TV because there's no DVD market, there's no Blu-ray market, there's no VOD market. The one-up that we do, no one wants in the sense that they wanted it, you know, a few years ago. So you know, if we want to survive, we have to figure out what is making money, and and series are you know we think is making money. We haven't seen that yet on our end, but we've been told that you can make money in TV series, and so you know we've been circling that wagon for a very long time, and nothing really stuck. But we we pretty much are convinced that the the thank you from Sci-Fi for producing Sharknado and doing the writings that it did because it broke records on their network and and and it became a big success for them. You know, at that station, the thank you was here to do the series. We, you know, they even though we've been pitching for a while, they kind of called up and said, "Hey, okay, take those pictures aside. But you know, you did this movie for us number of years ago called Zombie Apocalypse. Well, it was our number. It was our third like highest rated show, and and we're in the market to do another zombie, to do a zombie series, and we think that could translate well into a TV series, and you know, from what we hear now, you know, on on the back end of it is that, you know, we got really lucky because that. They ordered 13 episodes off the bat. They didn't do a pilot like the normal network would do. So they they really were very happy about Sharknado, I guess. Ultimately, and and so we were able to out the bat get a certain episode commitment, which was really helpful for us, and and the show found its voice very early on. The creator of Zombie Apocalypse also you know co-created Z Nation. We also brought in Carl Schaper, who's a veteran in this business, has been doing it for decades, and was sci-fi's top choice to be our quote-unquote showrunner. I say that in quotes because it's not a legitimate title anywhere, but the showrunner is like the main producer, guru, person that kind of drives the show. And Carl is just-I don't even understand him. I thought I was a workaholic, but he makes me like lazy, like my kids. I mean, you know, just sleeping all the time. He his work ethic is bizarre to me, where he's just 24/7, you know, working on unznation But he really created the voice and and the look and the style with his team and both him and and and Craig Engler, who was the other co-creator, and it's it's a hey, I've always said that if I wasn't producing the show, I'd be a fan of the show because it's just it's so fun. The Cats is so great. The scripts are phenomenal. The production is is amazing. I mean, there's just it it hits in all cylinders. So grateful for that show, and and it happens to be Sci-Fi's number one scripted series, so it's working on that level too, which is great.

Dave Bullis 41:49
And like you just said, David, you know, there's so much content out there now. You know, that's sort of what everyone's been sort of sort of gunning for now is a TV show. You know, you see like you know top actors in TV shows now, and now, you know everyone's creating their own original content, and most of the time it's you know a TV show.

David M. Latt 42:06
Yeah, I mean it's because that's where the interest is. People viewing Havoc have changed. They're now binge watching, which is a thing. I mean, and I know your audience like, of course, the only way you know, you know, everyone that younger than I am, which is a lot of people here in this office don't even own a television set. They have a computer and they binge watch. They wait until it's on Netflix and they watch certain episodes or something. So it it's a tough, strange, bizarre world that no one has an answer to on how to navigate, and we're just kind of all like you know zombies slowly walking towards you know a goal. We just don't know what that goal is at the moment. It'll it'll clear up in a few years, but for now it's like okay, everyone's thinking this is what we need to do, which is create television content, 13 plus episodes, and so we're doing it, and we'll see if that if it if it's full, or if we close our doors, because we're going to go bankrupt. But those are all real possibilities. I mean, this is you were we're playing at a higher level now, and it's tough. It's really tough.

Dave Bullis 43:13
Very true. Very true. You know, David, I know we're starting to run out of time now, and I know you have to run. So I wanted to, you know just ask one final question in closing. Oh, by the way, David, before I forget, um, the the number one question that came in you've already answered, and that was how do I pitch a movie to asylum?

David M. Latt 43:32
Yeah, and I get that a lot, and and I feel I feel so bad, but it's like, but you know, we just we just we're not in that business, and I know everyone's struggling out there, and I know they want a piece of something, a success of something, and I I'm just not in the position unless you're part of a boy band. I guess that's the like the one after to do it. If you're part of a boy band, probably I'll do something. But outside of that,

Dave Bullis 43:51
When when Nicola Shay did tweet me, so I guess he'll be in touch. So so you know, so in closing, Dave, you know, if I could just, you know, one final question, and that would be, you know, is there any sort of piece of advice or anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to to sort of mention that we didn't get a chance to, to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

David M. Latt 44:16
Well, you know, I will say that I'm grateful for the fan base out there. We seem to be hitting some kind of chord, and it's just really neat. And jumping into the Twitter space, it's amazing, you know, because I I've been so insulated, and so you know to see if there's people actually interested in what we do, it's bizarre. So thank you to everyone that you know has feels that way, and and and and screw you for those that don't feel that way. But you know, for those that really want to kind of get into business and to follow the passion, it's a very hard you know path to take. But it's fun. The biggest advice I can give is. What I try and give when people ask me the question of how do you do X, Y, and Z is meet a lot of people. Just meet a lot of people. Go to parties. Go to seminars. Go to festivals. This business is all about relationships. It's rarely by sending a resume to anyone. So you have to, you know, just keep putting yourself out there and and shaking hands and being a politician and and you know just getting yourself out there. That that's like the biggest thing. So and then the last thing is is just on a personal level. You know, for those that want to engage in the conversation about phylum stuff and what's going on here, you know, please follow me on Twitter. I'm at David M. Lat, and I pretty much talk to everybody on there because I have no life. I'm not producing a film. I'm usually on Twitter, you know, answering questions and talking to everybody, and fun. I enjoy it.

Dave Bullis 45:54
I noticed you're very active on Twitter, David, and you know that that's I'm very active on Twitter as well. But you're even more active than I am, and that's how we actually met again on Twitter. And you know, you made that mistake of saying, "Sure, I'll come on your podcast, and now you're going to regret that.

David M. Latt 46:08
Nah, not at all. I enjoy it, unless this is all about neo-Nazism, and I forgot. You know, and to look through the research, you know, it's like, hey, no,

Dave Bullis 46:18
Exactly, right, exactly. Do the research, like, who is this?

David M. Latt 46:21
So, how do you feel that Adolf? As a net, you know, no, it's not good. It's not good.

Dave Bullis 46:27
How did I get on here again?

David M. Latt 46:30
Yes, the problem of being my own public.

Dave Bullis 46:33
You know, David, I want to say thank you very much, and everyone listening. We're gonna, I'm gonna put all of the show notes. So I'm going to link to David's Twitter as well, David Mucklett. I want to say thank you very much for coming on, sir.

David M. Latt 46:46
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 46:48
Oh, my pleasure. I want to wish you the best of luck with all the future projects of Asylum.

David M. Latt 46:52
Thank you. Colony time.

Dave Bullis 46:54
Take care, David.

David M. Latt 46:57
All right, you too. Bye, Dave.

Dave Bullis 46:58
Bye.

David M. Latt 46:59
Bye.

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BPS 487: The Brutal Truth About Making Horror Movies with Harrison Smith

September 3, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every aspiring filmmaker eventually reaches the same crossroads. One path is filled with endless books, YouTube tutorials, podcasts, and discussions about filmmaking. The other requires picking up a camera, accepting failure, and learning through experience. In this episode, we welcome Harrison Smith, a filmmaker whose career has been built on choosing the second path. As the writer, producer, and director behind films including The Fields, Camp Dread, Six Degrees of Hell, and Zombie Killers: Elephant’s Graveyard, Harrison has spent years navigating the realities of independent filmmaking, and his advice is refreshingly simple: stop waiting and start making movies.

Harrison’s passion for cinema began early. Growing up in Philadelphia, Saturday afternoons were spent watching classic horror films with his grandmother, discovering legendary performers like Vincent Price, Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, and Peter Lorre. But one movie changed everything. Seeing Jaws in theaters as a child convinced him that filmmaking wasn’t simply something he admired—it was what he wanted to dedicate his life to. That dream eventually led him to Los Angeles, where instead of completing film school, he found himself working at Universal Studios. Looking back, Harrison believes those experiences on real productions taught him far more than any classroom ever could. His perspective isn’t anti-education; it’s pro-experience. If you want to become a filmmaker, he argues, you have to make films. No amount of theory replaces solving problems on an actual set.

That philosophy extends directly into screenwriting. Harrison doesn’t believe there’s a single correct writing method. Some projects begin with outlines and beat sheets. Others start with pure inspiration and evolve organically through rewrites. What matters most is getting the story onto the page. Too many writers become trapped trying to satisfy formulas before discovering the heart of their story. Harrison encourages writers to treat the first draft as creative freedom—allowing ideas to flow naturally before worrying about structure, pacing, or page counts. As he explains, writing is often only a small part of the process. The real work happens during rewriting, where difficult decisions must be made and favorite scenes are sometimes sacrificed for the good of the story.

One of the conversation’s most valuable lessons comes from Harrison’s experiences producing his first feature, The Fields. Based on true events from his childhood, the film represented a lifelong dream finally becoming reality. Yet the production quickly taught him that filmmaking is rarely glamorous. Managing SAG paperwork, coordinating locations, feeding crews, handling budgets, solving weather problems, and balancing countless moving pieces became a crash course in producing. The experience was exhausting, frustrating, and occasionally overwhelming, but it also shaped the producer he would become. Rather than discouraging him, it reinforced the reality that filmmaking is less about inspiration than perseverance. Every finished film represents thousands of invisible problems solved behind the scenes.

Harrison also offers thoughtful insight into financing independent films. Unlike many filmmakers eager to promise investors massive returns, he believes honesty builds stronger relationships than exaggerated projections. Independent filmmaking remains one of the riskiest investments anyone can make, and he refuses to pretend otherwise. Markets change. Distribution shifts. Audience tastes evolve. Even completed films face unpredictable futures. By being transparent about those realities, Harrison has earned a reputation for integrity that continues attracting investors who value realistic expectations over empty promises. In an industry built on uncertainty, trust often becomes a filmmaker’s greatest asset.

The discussion also explores why so many modern films struggle to leave lasting impressions. Harrison argues that technology has made filmmaking easier than ever while simultaneously encouraging creators to rely too heavily on polished visuals instead of compelling stories. Great cameras, digital workflows, and visual effects can make almost any production look impressive, but they cannot compensate for weak writing. Whether discussing horror classics, modern remakes, or blockbuster franchises, he continually returns to the same conclusion: audiences remember stories, not algorithms. Original ideas, memorable characters, and emotional honesty will always outlast trends or formulas designed solely to satisfy market research.

Perhaps the most inspiring aspect of Harrison’s journey is his unwavering belief in simply doing the work. He doesn’t encourage filmmakers to wait until they have perfect equipment, major investors, or studio backing. He encourages them to begin where they are, using whatever resources they have available. Every finished short film, screenplay, feature, or independent production becomes another step forward. Reputation grows through completed work, not unfinished ideas. Opportunities appear because people recognize consistent execution, not endless planning. It’s advice that sounds deceptively simple but has guided Harrison through decades of filmmaking.

The path into filmmaking will always be uncertain. Budgets will fall apart. Scripts will need rewriting. Productions will face unexpected obstacles. Critics will have opinions. Markets will shift. But Harrison Smith reminds us that every successful filmmaker shares one thing in common: they eventually stopped talking about making movies and actually made one.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
Joining me today is Harrison Smith. Harrison is actually the second person from Philly that I've actually had on my podcast, the other being David Greenberg. There's not a lot of filmmakers in Philly who've been on the podcast yet, but but Harrison's the second one. Harrison is the writer producer for The Fields and Six Degrees of Hell, starring Corey Feldman. Harrison made his directorial debut with the feature Camp Dread, which then Harrison followed up with Zombie Killers Elephant Graveyard. His upcoming film Death House is being called the Expendables for the horror genre. Harrison, thank you very much for coming on the show.

Harrison Smith 2:32
Thanks very much, Dave. It's really nice to be here, and thanks for taking the time to want to talk to me.

Dave Bullis 2:37
Oh yeah, my my pleasure, Harrison. You know, Harrison. You know, just to get started, you know, with everything, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, growing up, did you always, you know, have an affinity for film, or did you know from a young age that you wanted to go into the film industry?

Harrison Smith 2:50
Yeah, absolutely. The Fields. If anybody is is watched my film, The Fields, it shows a lot that I spent a lot of time with my grandparents growing up. My grandmother loved movies, especially horror films, so I spent a lot of time on Saturday afternoons with Creature Feature and Doctor Shock from Philadelphia and Creature Double Feature, all those things. And so by the time I was like eight years old, I knew the names of Vincent Price, Peter Lorre, Boris Karloff, Bela Lugosi, all of them. And so when my mom took me to see Jaws at the age of eight, I was in 1975. I saw it in theaters. I knew when I walked out of that theater, it's like this is what I want to do. Jaws is the movie that made me want to make movies.

Dave Bullis 3:33
You know that that's very cool. You know, I it's it's always interesting to hear everyone's background because some people really take to horror at a young age, like I remember myself, Harrison. You know, watching horror movies at a very young age, and you just be like, "Wow, this is just absolutely amazing. You know, and you know, it's just it's really just really cool how we can just sort of take that and you know make a career out of it. So you know, just taking all that, Harrison. Did you decide to go to film school, or did you go another route to get to actually do it for a living. Yeah, no,

Harrison Smith 4:02
I wanted to make movies. Like I said, I I was making movies as a boy growing up. I did it all through school, middle school, high school, the whole thing. I had a local cable TV show, a comedy show with my brother in it, and I decided. Well, you know, I guess when you're in high school, the the thing you want to do is one of them. I wanted to do was backpack through Europe, and my mom was like, "Absolutely not! Like you're going to, you don't go, you'll never go, that kind of thing. And so I ended up going to Penn State, where I didn't even last a semester and a half. I mean, I just partied my way right out of Penn State. So you know, I went to LA. I ended up getting a job at Universal Studios at Los Angeles, where I worked out there, made a lot of connections, a lot of you know, got a lot of knowledge. I think I learned more working on the set of Universal than I did you know going to school, but I really didn't give it the old college try either. However, I don't. I'm I'm still on the fence about film school. I'm not one to ever discount education. I mean, I have you know my master's degrees and all of that stuff. However, to go to school for film, not quite so sure about that. I mean, I know it can teach you certain things, especially in the way of you know, like let's say even computer design, you know, animation, you have to learn those things, and I get it. I'm still not sure about where I stand on where if you can teach talent. You either have that creative ability and most of all that gumption to get up and do it. I mean, the the number one thing that any good film production class should teach is you go out and you do it. That's it. You you can't teach how to produce. You you only know by doing it. John Carpenter will say that. I mean, you you grab a camera and you go out and you shoot. Dean Cundy will back me up on that. You know, to to sit in a class in front of a textbook and watch movies or whatever. You can learn things. Yes, I'm I'm never discounting that. But what I am saying is, is that you got to get out there and do it. It's as simple as that. If you want to make movies, go make movies. That's the best advice that I have.

Dave Bullis 6:08
And you know, that's actually similar advice to Harrison from from some of the other guests. Because I'm always interested to know, you know, if the guests went to film school or not. And it's always, you know, interesting to see, you know, what if they did, did they feel they gain anything from it? And if they didn't, did they do they kind of wish they did? And it's just interesting because you know, and you mentioned it yourself. You know, you didn't want to you know discount education, but it's just interesting to see everyone's sort of path to in this industry.

Harrison Smith 6:33
Yeah, I mean, we're in a society now, Dave, where most filmmakers will tell you that we're we're in a spectator society. We're in a society where everybody can get online and be a critic. But my answer always back is very simple, and that is, and and what film did you make? Oh, you've made nothing, but you snark on the internet and put anonymous comments on, and we've now confused the line between true criticism, which is great, and reviews, which are not reviews, they're they're not. They're they're just they're they're just posts. They're comments on on IMDb or Amazon or YouTube. You know, like like for example, look, I don't know where I stand on on the new Ghostbusters movie coming. Quite frankly, I just really don't care if it's good, great, and if it isn't, oh well. But you know the amount of piss and vinegar that came out for that trailer, mostly from people that have never made a film. They don't know what goes into it. They they have no idea what what it happened. Most of them are judging something based on a 32nd trailer or 62nd trailer. So I mean, I look you and I both know we've seen trailers where something looks awesome, and then you get there and you found out you saw the best parts in the trailer, and the movie is nothing like that. So we're in a we're in a very spectator society, I guess is my point, where we're losing the ability. Not all of us, but people lose the ability to understand what really goes into something. Like film is not a product, and the moment that film becomes product, it loses its its intent and its magic. Film is a laborious process. Any independent filmmaker listening to me now knows that. Whether your budget is 5000 bucks or 5 million bucks, the same amount of effort goes into it. It's all relative, and for the critics, they just go, oh, it didn't have those great special effects. Oh, it doesn't have this. It doesn't have a star in it. Well, yeah, that's because you're sitting somewhere on a laptop, a computer, your cell phone, and you don't do it. You're not out there doing it. You're not out there dealing with how do you feed a crew, how do you where do you lodge people, dealing with permits from cities or or any of that. So we've become a very A very comment-based society, and and that's that's tough for anybody listening to me that's out there, and they're putting their neck on the line, and they're they're you know taking someone's money that has been vested into them and trusted into them to to make the best possible product for a return on investment.

Dave Bullis 8:57
You know, there's an account on on Twitter called Amazon movie reviews, and it actually it harvests all of the most weird, craziest movie reviews. And some of the time, you'll see like a one star review. Wolf of Wall Street has as one of the most memorable ones. It was one star review. There were no wolves in this movie.

Harrison Smith 9:17
Yeah, yeah, that's what you're up against, right? This is this is definitely what we're up against. There's one guy on YouTube, and I have a post. I publish a series of film articles called Cynema, C Y N E M A, and it's on Horrorfuel.com. It's hosted over there, and you know I talk about cynicism in filmmaking and how dangerous it is, and I did a swipe at these supposed online movie bloggers and reviewers. Look, I have no problem with somebody qualified watching one of my films and going, "Well, I didn't care for it, and here's the empirical data as to why. That's fine. What I don't like is, you know, I've had people, for example, here's one in a review where they absolutely loved Camp Dread. I mean, they did nothing but praise this movie, Dave. And then, then at the end, they go, "It's it's probably the best sequel to Sleepaway Camp that they've made. Well, you just blew the entire review. My Camp Dread is not a sequel, and it is not affiliated with Sleepaway Camp in any way other than that Phyllissa Rose stars in the film, but she is not Angela Baker, and it has nothing to do with that original storyline. So all the praise that they heaped on my film tells me nothing because you didn't watch it properly. You did not even look at it, and then you have others that claim they're reviewers. And one guy in Camp Dread said, "Well, you know, Smith thinks it's creative to kill somebody at the end with a watermelon shot at their head. It's pretty damn clear that that's not a watermelon that's in that sling. So, and then when I contacted the guy and I said, "Look, I understand you. You may not have liked all of Camp Dreader that the ending put you off, but your information is incorrect. There there is no watermelon at the end, and anybody who's seen the film and listening to me right now knows that is not the case at all. And then the guy said, "Oh, yeah, I guess you know I I didn't write this review until a couple weeks after it, I guess I didn't look at my notes. You don't need notes for that. That's like saying at the end of Jaws, you know, it's a shame that the they launched the shark into space. No, they blew it up with a tank in its mouth. Oh well, I didn't have my notes. How do you forget something like that? So that's that's the issue I think that's that's out there now. The films are being looked upon as just product, and and they're not being looked upon as as you know something special or that people are working very hard on. And not all films people are working very hard on. I mean, there's there's truly some bad films out there that people have that American Idol attitude that they think theirs is the greatest. But I don't think we have a very well educated audience out there, I really don't. So with Har, like you said, there were no wolves in this film. Now, if that's a legitimate post and somebody was really expecting a wolf or a werewolf or whatever it may be, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Like I said, there's a guy on YouTube that does his whole review under a sheet, like as I guess he's like the unknown reviewer, and and it's just a shtick. There's there's no film analysis there. There's no criticism. There's there's nothing there other than that this guy thinks it's just really funny to have a stupid gimmick like being under a sheet and making fun of movies. I guess yeah maybe there's an audience for that, but then you have somebody as brilliant as Red Letter Media with you know mr. Plinkett's reviews, where I think his Star Wars critique should be studied in film school. I think he's brilliant.

Dave Bullis 12:49
Yeah, Red Letter Media. I I've actually seen all all of their videos, and yeah, I concur that their their Star Wars analysis is absolutely phenomenal. I actually had a a professor when I was in college, actually bring that up, and he said he actually showed a few minutes of it, and he goes, "Guys, when you go home, make sure you check this out. It is absolutely well, so well done because it's funny, but it's also insightful at the same time.

Harrison Smith 13:10
Oh, it's brilliant! I mean, you know, and he and he assesses so much more than just film criticism. He's he's looking at the the entire scope of the picture that allowed these movies to be made, and what I loved is, is they have a recent post now where he's he's like instead of the Force Awakens, Plinken awakens like he's been asleep for so long, and you know this this retro view now that oh maybe the the prequels weren't as bad as we said, and oh the internet drove poor George Lucas away from the Star Wars franchise, and now there's this ridiculous thing that you know we want him back to direct Episode Nine. No, no, and Planckit adamantly supports why this this should not be, and and all of the like I said the overall general big picture stuff that that contributed to a series of films that were not very good at all, and and really flew in the face of of what drove the original and and its subsequent sequels, and and that's that's what I'm talking about. We there's too much information out there now, Dave, and and a lot of people just you know they think well my opinion is the only one that should be heard. So we have now this my technology trumps experience, kind of thing. That's how I feel.

Dave Bullis 14:24
You know, there was a a documentary about episode one, and when they were actually watching the the the cut of of the Phantom Menace, and George said something like, "See, Jar Jar is the key to all this. If we can get him working, it makes everything else work, or something along those lines. And it was just very interesting to see how that all sort of came together because I think in that process I I think you know obviously there was a reliance on CGI and special effects and you know putting all the actors in a complete green screen a green screen room you know it's just very interesting to see you know how those movies movies were shot and the only real. Defense I've ever seen of those movies for like you know people who like the old Star Wars episodes you know four five and six they they always say about episodes one two and three they were mainly for kids and I don't really know if that's true or not if you know what I mean yeah

Harrison Smith 15:11
I agree I I don't know what look I'm not George Lucas and and I could only wish to rack up his type of failures. Okay, so it's hard to say on that. I mean, I wrote a two-part essay on it when George was out there belly aching about how unfairly he was treated or alienated from the process this time around of of making the new Star Wars film, The Force Awakens, and my answer, quite frankly, is is Disney. I'm not a big Disney champion nor fan, and yet I felt Disney did the absolute right thing, and that is they gave him a check for $4 billion and told him be happy to be on his way. And I think that was the smartest thing that Disney could have done. They made it very clear we're not interested in your ideas, we're not interested in your outlines, thanks for all you've done and contributed to this genre and and this film series, and we wish you well. And I think that was a very smart business move, and obviously the box office performance and overall reception to the Force Awakens I think reflects that. I think the Force Awakens was the the proper way to do things to kind of like reset the franchise. Yes, it relied incredibly on nostalgia. Yeah, you could argue that it's a remake of of a new hope. I get all of that, but there was really almost no other way that it could be done because of the damage that had been inflicted by those those three prequels. And so saying that the excuses while they were aiming for children, my question is: Well, who the hell asked you to do that? Since when did Star Wars become predominantly just for children, and why would you alienate an entire generation that grew up on those films and shut them out of the picture to make movies for that generation's kids? No one asked you to do that. There was no demand for any of that, it's almost arrogance. If if that's if that was Lucas's intent, my my question is: is who the hell asks you to do that?

Dave Bullis 17:07
Yeah, and also the reason I don't believe that either is because you know the storyline in episode one, for instance, is very very convoluted, and also the you know at the end you know Darth Maul gets chopped into two, and and Qui Gon Jinn dies, and I was like that that wouldn't be a kids movie,

Harrison Smith 17:25
And that's what I mean. It is you're right. It is it's a very poor excuse. What what it comes down to is, in my opinion, and it's nothing I wouldn't say to George Lucas to his face because apparently people have said I know Frank Darabont has pretty much said worse to him, and Lucas just stares back at you like I'm George Lucas, so I don't think he really cares. I think the issue really comes down to is you have the Elvis principle, and that is you know he became so big, no one's going to tell him no. So you have an emperor's new clothes kind of situation. Once that first draft of the Phantom Menace was done. It really needed to go through a team and have people go, George. No, that the dialog is horrendous. And by the way, George is the first one to admit in many of his interviews he hates the writing process, and he knows his dialog is wooden and stilted and not good. He's very much aware of that, and he even admits so much to say that he really doesn't care for directing all that much, so why is he allowed to do this? That was the question. Well, the answer is simple. He financed all those prequels out of his own pocket. So when you do that, you can do whatever the hell you want. I mean, there's there's a video I saw somewhere of of one of the the assistant producers sitting with him in a room, going, "Oh, okay, George. So I assume on set you'll be the one to yell action and cut. Could we suck up to this guy anymore? Yeah. Guess who yells action and cut? The director. Unless you want to be the first AD and do it because they do that as well too. What kind of a stupid conversation is that anyway, you know. Somebody needed to tell him this is not a good script. When when the opening crawl, that title crawl, comes out and it says the Phantom Menace, and at about one paragraph into it, three sentences or so, five sentences or so into this thing, we're talking about you know blockades, planetary blockades, and trade federations and and tariffs and all. I'm like, oh my god! Can my eyes glaze over? I mean, I knew within the first 30 seconds of that crawl, we're in trouble, and we were. You know that, and and you you just kind of approach those films as if you know. Well, I'll go see Attack of the Clones because it really couldn't be any worse than The Phantom Menace. Well, guess what it was, and then even with Revenge of the Sith. Well, I mean, everybody's saying this is the darkest one. Oh, this is it. No, that really that Darth Vader ending. That no, that was something you'd see on The Simpsons. You know, and when people are sitting in that theater laughing, and it's unintentional laughter. I mean, it was it was bad. It was just bad, you know. And and it's one of those again. It's the Emperor's New Clothes. Nobody wants to say it's bad because it's Star Wars. Well, guess what? They were bad from a production sense. No, they're beautifully made. They're richly textured. You know, you have top of the line stars in them. Look, there's a reason why. There's a reason why this guy isn't out there being proud and talking about his contribution to the Star Wars franchise. You know, the story is is that he signed on without a script. He wanted to be in Star Wars. Well, you got it, and he wasn't the only one who got taken. We all got taken, you know. I mean, we waited 20 years for that to to explain Minicorian, you know, to explain the Force as almost a genetic kind of of situation. Why do we need that? Nobody asked for that. We didn't ask for any of this. It's like now with this whole remake thing. Oh, we're gonna go back and give Jason Voorhees a backstory. Do do we really need that? Do we really need a backstory to Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees? Oh, so in Rob Zombie's Halloween, Michael Myers is the way that he is because his mom was a stripper and his dad was, you know, a wife beater, and oh, that's why he's. Why do we need that? Do we need to explain a tornado? Sometimes bad shit just happens. Sometimes bad things happen to good people, and there there is no explanation. Michael Myers, I always compare to in the original 70 film, is a tornado. He touches down in Haddonfield. This is before the subplot of Janie Lee Curtis's sister and all that soap opera garbage, but he touched down in a town. He's evil. He was born evil. Doctor Loomis said it best: like this, this kid is just evil. That's it. We we don't need any other explanation. We don't need that. You know, he tortured animals and he was picked on and he loved his mom, but his mom was beaten. And why do we need any of that? I mean, it's just fluff to make people feel like they're getting something more, in my opinion.

Dave Bullis 22:08
I wasn't a big fan of the remake of The Halloweens, nor did I like the remake of Friday the 13th, because that one. I, you know, I remember watching that, and and I thought to myself, wow, I don't know what I just saw there, because I I remember like two things from that movie right now. Because usually most movies I can remember pretty well. That one not so much. I remember something about a bus and Jason popping out of it.

Harrison Smith 22:33
Yeah, you know that's what I mean. Like that's cynicism in filmmaking, and and that's what I write about a lot, and that is: was this trip even necessary? Why not go back then? If you're going to remake stuff, remake the bad movies. Why are we remaking the good ones? There's no need to remake John Carpenter's Halloween. There, there's no needs. There's no need. There's no reason whatsoever to do this. None. And and you know people can say, well, it's to update it. What's there to update? Do we need to update Gone with the Wind? Do we need to take it out of the Civil War and update it to I don't know Iraq? Do do we need to do this? I I don't see the need for any of this. Everybody falls on that. Well, we're updating the movie. A good story is a good story. Do we do we need to update, you know, anything, you know, like the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. Do we need to rewrite that? Should we be rewriting Stephen King's Carry in the future? And people go, well, that's ridiculous. Well, why is it any different with remaking a movie? Does Jaws really need to be updated? What? Because some of the cars look old because they don't have cell phones in them? That this is stupid. It's just dumb.

Dave Bullis 23:41
Yeah, I concur. You know, whenever I hear about somebody's movies being remade, I mean, we you mentioned Ghostbusters earlier when they when they were gonna, you know, I know there's a female version of Ghostbusters, and I heard then there's gonna be a male version of Ghostbusters. I don't know if they're if they're necessarily a remake or a sequel prequel type deal, but I'm always wondering. You know, is is you know what's the intent behind this?

Harrison Smith 24:06
I don't know. I you know I I I it would be like like I don't care that it's an all female Ghostbusters. Like it's almost like that's a deliberate distraction to get people talking. You're like you're almost doing it deliberately to stir things up. Why is that an even an issue? I don't care. I mean, what what if they were all black? What if they were all Asian? Is is it an all Asian Ghostbusters? Is it an all black Ghostbusters? Who cares if the movie's funny? Go see the go see the movie. Who cares? Who cares if it's all women? Who cares if it's all animated? I don't care. Just make a good movie. But we create these things now to to generate the buzz on the internet to get people talking and fighting and bickering back and forth because in the end it's the old theory that you know there is no such thing as bad publicity so I'm sure that Apato and everybody were really upset that you know there was such hatred for the Ghostbusters trailer that. Out because they're sitting back going, but you're talking about it. Yeah. Now it's trending. It's everybody's the pre-awareness on the project is amazing. And let's just say it is a terrible film. It's not going to matter because people. A lot of people will go just to see if it is that terrible.

Dave Bullis 25:15
Yeah, and that that is very true. And you know, and you know, as we were talking earlier about you know everyone sort of has a blog you know reminded me of this you know of a couple different filmmaking blogs that I would stumble upon you know maybe you know a year or so ago and it would be people you know who went to film school who never really made a film just like you know like you were saying Harrison and they were they it seems like they wanted to but it was it was just a a rather a an easier way just to sort of watch movies and then just make these like real snarky comments about them.

Harrison Smith 25:47
Yeah, it's different when you go to a football game and some big fat load is sitting behind you talking about how the the coach made a bad move here and that player can't run. Really fat ass, get down on the field and go run. You know that that's how I feel. Yeah, and it's it's no different than a musician. Anybody out there who's working, it's like teachers. You know, you get everybody. Oh, teachers get you know three months off and they're overpaid. Really, go in and do their job. Okay, go in and do it. Look, I was a teacher, and I can tell you, the people that complain, I'll give you five days. You won't make it three, but I'll give you five, and and it's no different than construction. It's no different than anything that you're out there and you're working your butt off, and there's always somebody to comment. So it it doesn't just apply to filmmaking. You know, yeah, maybe I'm not in George Lucas's shoes. It's very easy for me to sit back and and critique because you know I'm not making $150 million motion picture, but when you see look all good films start in one place and that is with a script, you don't need a giant staff and you don't need a mega empire to write a good story, and the issue with all of the prequels comes down to one thing: it's on that page, that's it. You know, you you can once you if you don't have you're not improving on a bad script. That's all. And believe it or not, the computers still can't take that writing job over. They still can't write a good movie yet. So it still comes down to telling a good story. And those three films did not have good stories, and it's that simple.

Dave Bullis 27:23
You know, Harrison, it's funny you mentioned that because I was actually talking to a past guest about that just recently because she posted an article about a new screenwriting algorithm software, and they and she said to me, you know, one day she was like, "Are they just you know are studio execs just going to literally try to bang out a script by hitting a button saying like, "Okay, I want a a superhero movie with this and this and this. Enter and you know and you know it'll go through a million computations and all of a sudden you know out comes 100 120 page screenplay and they go, "Well, this is our next blockbuster.

Harrison Smith 28:02
And in some ways, didn't we have that with Jurassic World? Jurassic World is not a screenplay. I love when they say "written by. It's it's a to do list. That's all it is. I mean, they they basically remade all the best scenes out of Jurassic Park, and they stitched it together with some threadbare stories. So it's an algorithm. That's all it is, right? Introduce the kids, get the kids in trouble, rescue the kids, and in between intersperse it with some dinosaur action, and give us a Godzilla ending because that's basically what we got. The Tyrannosaurus walks off, you know, as the embattled hero, like Godzilla walked off into the sunset in the 2014 film, and then ends up on some type of helicopter helipad and roars off into the sunset, just like Godzilla does before he drops down into the water. I mean, that's an algorithm, is it not?

Dave Bullis 28:49
Yeah, and because that ending, I was kind of like, oh, okay. Everyone sort of teamed up. It reminded me of a of another movie I saw, which I actually think, actually, I think that was one of the sequels, the Jurassic Park, where some of the dinosaurs all teamed up at the end, and I was like, I think it was like, wow, I think I was like, it did seem, you know, you're right, it does seem like a to-do list.

Harrison Smith 29:10
It's all it was. I mean, you can see what they did. They they probably brought brought a Colin Trevorrow on as director and said, you're you're really not a director, you're a manager. Just get us from here to here, start us here, get that in. Make sure you get that. End it. Like that's all there is to it, right? I mean, I was I told this story to another interview. I was standing in line to see Jurassic World and the 3D version. I did not want to see. I'm sorry, the 3D version I was going to see, and it sold out. And all that was left was a 2d version, but it had already started. Like the first, I think the previews were on or something like that. So these guys, these college guys, were in front of me, and they were fretting, like, "Oh man, we're gonna miss the first 10 minutes. And so I stopped them and I said, "Gentlemen, let's really look at this pretty clearly here. What do you think we're gonna miss? I said I'll bet you it'll start with some kids, and they go to the island, and we hear John Williams's Jurassic Park score with lots of aerial sweeping shots of the island, and then we'll go down onto the island and see lots of dinosaurs, and everybody standing in wide-eyed wonder with their mouths open and agape. That's what we're going to have. And son of a bitch, if that wasn't the first 10 minutes of Jurassic World. And when I walked out, those guys said, "Dude, did you see that already? Yeah, technically we all did. We all did see this already. We we saw this before in three other motion pictures, especially the first one. Yeah, we did see it already. There, there. This is not a movie. This is an algorithm. So your previous guest is not off the mark whatsoever. You know, now will it be any good? I don't know how Jurassic World made the money that it did, but it did. And I think it's just because people. I wanted to stand up at one point in the theater and just turn around to the audience and say, "Don't you people see this is the same damn thing all over again? I mean, you can do a split screen, and I think some people on YouTube have done it. You can do a split screen and see scenes from Jurassic World, and they they show you right where they copied them from Jurassic Park. They're side by side; they're identical, and that's all it is. Terminator Genesis did the same thing. Went back, took the best scenes out of Terminator One and Two. Notice they don't do three, and they took the best scenes out of Terminator One and Two, and they remade them, and they stitched them into some threadbare story. And really, all it is is moving on. We start here, get us to the middle, get us to the end. That's not directing. That's managing. It's it's not directing a movie. There's no feeling there. There's no emotion. There's there's nothing original. And all we're doing is sitting there being reminded for another $10 of how much better the previous movies were.

Dave Bullis 31:53
Yeah, you're right. They didn't take from the the third one. And and you know I hear by the way I just read yesterday that that there's another one coming up, another a new Terminator.

Harrison Smith 32:03
Well, I you know I have no doubt about it. You know, I have no doubt about it. They said there wasn't, but that look, it's a franchise that I think Annapurna still owns the rights to. They need to make some money. Now, as far as I know, Genesis made money, you know, thanks to the the foreign market. I think the Chinese market that the film at least broke even and has generated probably some some type of profit. They wouldn't be talk about, I guess, if it didn't. But I don't know. I mean, there's all kinds of rumors about that. Is it going? Isn't it going? I I don't know. I mean, quite frankly, at this point, I I don't even know if Terminator is even relevant anymore? That's the whole issue. Do we are are these were these things that were pretty much '80s and early '90s escapist entertainment, and do they really apply to this world now? I mean, I saw where Genesis was trying to go with you know the eye in the sky kind of thing. You know, everybody being watched, everybody becoming a piece of information. I guess, but I don't know.

Dave Bullis 33:03
You know, I would have. I hate to be this guy Harrison, but I would have a pitch to how they could actually make the next one work. But you know, I don't want to be one of those kind of like quote unquote fanboys. There's there's there's a lot of different avenues they could take by because I mean the technology that you know I see almost daily now. You know, I it's almost like we're almost at the point where Terminator is supposed to take over anyway, right? I mean, you have security drones now out out in San Fran. You have fast foods going to be taken over by automation. You know, you have robot bartenders on cruises now. So it's it's almost like this film's almost writing itself.

Harrison Smith 33:41
Yeah, well, that's that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, does art imitate life? And we go through that whole thing. The real issue that that comes down to is you're you're saying it right there. You think you have a good story, right? That's all it is. It just comes down to I think I have a good story. So if there's a good, I mean, Terminator Genesis wasn't a story; it was a laundry list. That's all it was. It was a to-do list. There, there was no story, and the same with Jurassic World. Well, yeah, there was. People went to oh, well, where have we seen that before? I mean, what, what more can we do? I mean, we bring back dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat people. That's what Jeff Goldblum said, right? That there it is. So you know, I mean, at least I don't know where they being at least upfront and honest. You got me. I mean, I paid money; they got my $10 to see it. But I do believe that you know studios will look for that algorithm. I think they already are. They're they're trying to cover their their bases now by making sure their their demographics are all properly covered. Do they do they have something for foreign appeal? Do they have something for this? And and in the meantime, we're also worried about offending people. We got to make sure that things are sanitized. And you know the people talk about now the the uniqueness of of a summertime R rated comedy that. That might be a little quote unquote raunchy. We're in a world now where everybody drops the word inappropriate and awkward, like they're they're part of our lexicon now, and I don't even know what they mean. Everything's inappropriate. Everything is awkward. You hear kids say it all the time. Awkward. What what does that mean? You know, was would Caddyshack if it was released today, be awkward. I mean, is Blazing Saddles inappropriate? And if there's anybody listening to me right now saying yes, they are, then you don't know movies and go get a sense of humor because you're a jackass.

Dave Bullis 35:33
You know, I've I've actually joked around with friends that I could like if they were to remake Caddyshack, I said I I could see exactly how they would do it and who the hell they would cast. You know, I imagine they would put Paris Hilton in the in the role of of that one. I forget the guy. For the girl's name, but she was the the girl who came in. Ted back Ted Knight's character. Yeah, yeah. She would have. You know, she'd be played by like Paris Hilton. You know, and I and and I would. I just kind of went down a cast list, but I said, you know, and and that's sort of, and you touched on that, where they would probably say, you know, should they even be at a golf course? Does anybody play golf anymore? You know what I mean? Should we make it at sort of a drone racing seminar? I don't know, but it's just, it's just, you know, with all the remakes nowadays, I'm, I'm, anytime they're going to remake a movie. I'm not really that shocked anymore because it just seems like that's like the latest sort of you know hey you know this original movie bombed so let's just go remake Ben Hur. You know what I mean?

Harrison Smith 36:30
I mean they they kind of forget like what made Caddyshack funny, and most people don't realize unless they've watched like those A and E biographies on it, is that the movie never came out the way that they intended, that the film was scripted to be about the caddies, and instead, basically, Rodney Dangerfield and Bill Murray and the boys they all hijacked it. And yeah, Harold Ramis said it best. We we went to Florida to shoot it because at that time there really was no film industry in Florida, and we went out there to get the hell away from the executives, and we had really one big drug and alcohol party is what they did, and it shows on screen. Like you can see when Rodney Dangerfield farts at that table and does his round around the dining room hall. I mean, you can tell the director was just probably go ahead, Rodney, go do your thing, and that's what made the movie funny. Bill Murray was on set what a week, and he ad libbed everything. Pretty much, his whole Carl character is-you know-Carl Spackler is is ad-libbed. That's what made the movie funny. Now we have-you know-everything's got to be properly scripted, and everybody's worried. Like, why are we worried about an R-rated comedy anymore in in the summertime? How many growing up? I mean, I don't know how old you are, Dave, but growing up, that's pretty much all there fricking was, you know. In the '80s, it was all our rated Kaporkis and all that stuff. Now everything's inappropriate and offensive, and we've got to be careful. And you know, now colleges have safe rooms for kids to go to if they feel unsafe. This is nuts. This is absolutely crazy. This is beyond Brave New world, we we have become so sanitized that even now we're afraid of our own culture. This is stupid, you know. Everybody goes well. Blazing saddles is offensive. It's supposed to be you, dumbass. It's supposed to show the stupidity of racism. That's the point of it. Yes, it's supposed to be offensive. Yes,

Dave Bullis 38:19
I know exactly what you're where you're coming from, Harrison? I mean, I'm 30, but I've seen all those movies. You know, Porky's. You know, I mean, we can go on and on. But you know, I've seen all those movies, and I agree. You know, the movies, and even you know, and it's something I always talk about too. Is the slashers from the '80s? You know, even the worst ones had some heart that a lot, you know, when I see like news slashers, a lot of them I don't know if they they've ever seen the old ones or if they just sort of maybe don't have the experience yet behind you know to to behind the camera or if

Harrison Smith 38:51
It's even that I think a lot of them are just trying to be so slick now like even low budget I mean look low budget filmmakers now have access to equipment that you know let's face it. 30 years ago, you didn't have. Did the digital revolution has changed things? So even bad movies can look great. And now you see that horror has become like this overlit, overproduced kind of look to it that has no heart, as you just said. And you know what you didn't have in technology or what you didn't have in shortcuts 30 years ago, well, you you made up for in heart. So you're right. Not not all of them, but many of them that were bad, they did have an element of heart to them. Where people are, damn it, they're trying. Now it's like all these horror films. They all have that blue or green filter on them, and they they all look you know they're over lit. They're very bright. Everybody's trying to look slick. Everybody's trying to look not low budget, and I think that's a problem. John Carpenter embraced that with Halloween in a lot of his films. I mean, yeah, they used Panavision on Halloween, and that was important. But yet, Halloween doesn't have an overproduced look to it. It does look like it was a low budget film, but they used it smartly. John was a brilliant director. And and he used it correctly, and he made it work to his advantage. He was telling a good story, and he didn't try to slick it up. That's where I mean, Halloween H 2o is not a scary film. I don't even really think it counts as as even a good sequel. It gets love from the fan base simply because Jamie Lee Curtis returned, and there's some legitimacy there, I guess. But I mean, it's it looks good. I mean, it's beautifully shot. It's beautifully lit. I just it doesn't have any heart. There's nothing to it. I mean, it's a very forgettable entry into the pretty much all of them are forgettable entries except for one that I always champion and that's Halloween three. I think Halloween three, if it had not been called Halloween three, would have done far better. And I think it's a great comment on the commercialism of of the holiday and is a fun horror film with some heart.

Dave Bullis 40:58
Yeah, I actually just showed Halloween three to some friends of mine last Halloween, and I said to them before I showed it to them, I said, "Listen, this is just Halloween in name. I said, "Michael Myers is not a part of this, even in the slightest sense. And one of my friends he watched, and he said, "You know, I think I actually enjoy that one sort of more than than than any other because he's like it was just so different. He's like it's actually different than a lot of other Harley movies I ever seen. Oh yeah, I mean,

Harrison Smith 41:22
Dave, you're right. Your friend is correct. I mean, look at Halloween Two. All Emmy picks up the same night. That is a dreadfully mediocre bad film. I mean, Halloween Two was just a contractual agreement to make some more money. It had nothing. I mean, the first Halloween movie was made by a bunch of artists who tried to make the best damn horror film that they could. The second one was just a complete knockoff. Is all it was, and and they could have made Halloween Two about the phone book, and people would have come to see it just because it was the sequel to Halloween. So you know, then you've got Halloween Four. I mean, Danielle Harris is great in it, and Danielle is a friend of mine. But let's face it: was Halloween Four a classic? It's the same damn story all over again. And then Halloween Five, Halloween Six, and then we've got Halloween H 2o, and then we've got Resurrection, and then we. What's different about any of these things? Nothing, you know. At least Halloween Three, which it should have never been called, like you said. It's only Halloween, a name only. Tried to branch out and do something cool, and you have to admit, man, Cochran is a wonderful villain in Halloween Three. He's terrific.

Dave Bullis 42:31
Yeah, you know, it was just such an interesting idea too, because you know, I mean, and and they all like the idea too. You know, the whole masks, the the song, and that song in that movie, by the way, does get in your head? You know, you know, you know. As we talk about horror movies, you know, I actually did want to actually talk about you know your films. You know, you actually have some impressive films that you've actually you know wrote, directed, and produced. Thank you. You know, so if you don't mind, I really would like to sort of talk in depth about so much about your process.

Harrison Smith 43:00
Okay.

Dave Bullis 43:01
Um. Really, you know, I guess we might as well start at the beginning, right? So, if we could talk about the fields, you know, you wrote and you produced the fields. So, I wanted to ask, you know, was the fields one of the first things that you've you've written? And you know, if so, you know, what was your process? Well, actually, even if it wasn't, you know, what was your process about on on actually writing the fields.

Harrison Smith 43:21
Well, the fields is based on the true story of what happened to me as a boy growing up on my grandparents' farm. So it was written totally from memory, is really what it was. I mean, Cloris Leachman plays my grandmother in the film, and I always say this almost in every interview: she didn't play my grandmother; she channeled my grandmother. Chloris became my grandmother, and seeing her on set and watching her in that movie-that's the closest I'm ever going to get to seeing my grandmother again. So it was written based on memory, and it was not hard to write because it was a true story. And you know, you get people going, "Oh yeah, they always say that. No, this-I-it happened to me. Like I know, it was based on true events because I lived them. So the little boy in the film is based on me. Tara Reet played my mother, and the Fields was not the first script I've written, but it was the first one to get produced, and it was a very grueling process. I mean, as I said, you want to learn about producing, get on a film set and just go produce. You'll find out real fast, you know how to do this. You'll you'll either sink or swim. The Fields was a baptism by fire. It really was. I will have to say, of all my filmmaking experiences, the Fields was the most unpleasant. It was extremely rough. It was one of those that by the end I was asking myself, "Is this what I really want to do? And I felt kind of cheated because all my life I've I've wanted to make movies, and then you finally get to make your movie, and it was not the sunshine and puppy dogs that you hoped it would be.

Dave Bullis 44:54
Was it a lot to do with like location issues, or because I mean, I mean, I I know how you know hard produced. A film can be. I've produced things myself, and you know how you know. And Harris, you know, and you've experienced this too, where you look at it on paper, and it looks like okay, you know, this should be a gimme. This is a gimme, and then all of a sudden, everything just sort of turns on its head, and what you thought was going to be easy became hard. Where you thought was hard became easy, and it's just sort of, you're just like, wow! What the hell did I get myself into?

Harrison Smith 45:23
I think it's like you know, if you produce something, then you know. I think a lot of it had to do with that. You're you're kind of thrown naked out on the stage is really what it is, and you know there there were a lot of things from SAG paperwork, and I don't care who's listening, SAG is a nightmare to work with. It it is just, and I think most independent filmmakers out there will agree and are probably nodding their heads. And if they're listening to this driving, they're going, "Oh yeah, you're you're thrown into all of this and dealing with you know pension and health and taxes and and how your taxes are broken down and then agent fees and you know the salary plus 10 and then line item budget issues, and then feeding people, and making sure that your caterers all work out. Because, look, I know someone who worked on a House of Cards, and I think they had close to a $4 million budget for catering. And he told me, he said people still complained. You know, they had chocolate fountains on set, and people are still like, "Oh, this food sucks. So you know, you you quickly realize you're never going to please everyone on the set of a film, and then you go into like you said, location issues, weather, all of the stuff that goes into it, and most of all, watching your screenplay in the hands of other people, two directors that sometimes put their own spin on things where you're kind of feeling oh you're you're kind of diverting from the source material. I wasn't I've been very vocal about this before. Nothing I haven't said to them. I wasn't always 100% supportive of the changes that they made to the screenplay, but it was their choice because they're directors. In the end, I feel I was pretty fairly treated as a first time writer, but as a producer, I walked away pretty bruised from it, and not to be over dramatic, but just it was tough. And as going into any type of career like that is, you know, any anyone can say that. Well, you know, I started out in this, and this is how you learn. So I I made my bones. I guess is the best way to to sum up the fields.

Dave Bullis 47:20
You know that's an excellent way to put it, Harrison. I made my bones. I actually, you know, I've had other people come on who've also written, you know, screenplays, or you know, it was a first movie that you know actually got produced, and they said, you know, for the for the better or for the worst or however it turned out, they were like, I'm just happy it happens, and you know, you know, sometimes you know, like you said, things go beyond your control, and you just sort of have to make peace with that because you can't control it. You know,

Harrison Smith 47:46
Yep, make peace is a good word for you. Just make peace with it.

Dave Bullis 47:50
So your your your next film was Six Degrees of Hell, and they actually had you know Corey Feldman in in it, and you know it was actually funny. I actually got invited to the screening of this. I I forget who invited me, but I actually couldn't make it. We actually would have met each other if I had attended this screening because it was in Philly. So you were you wrote and produced Six Degrees of Hell. So you know how did you go about writing this about writing this film, Six Degrees of Hell?

Harrison Smith 48:14
Well, it came from I went through a haunted establishment at Halloween time with my ex-wife, and we went through, and she hated those things. And we went through this one room, and there was a guy tied to a table. And I'll never forget as I walked by him, he reached out and he grabbed me and he said, "You don't get it. They're really killing people in here. Like they're going to kill me. Please, when you get out of here, call the police. And as I walked out of the room, I said to my ex-wife, "I said, well, you know, how do we really know that he's not telling the truth? Like, what if they really are going to kill this dude? Like, we won't know. You know, I mean, this is all part of the the game, right? This is all part of the illusion. And so I thought I would build on that for a film, and then I added a supernatural element to it, and we we got what we had with six degrees.

Dave Bullis 49:07
So what if what if that guy really doesn't bubble felt?

Harrison Smith 49:13
I don't know. I hope he's alive.

Dave Bullis 49:17
That's I thought you were going to say is like you know later on you're like wow

Harrison Smith 49:20
I never found out what happened to him. I'm kind of assuming he was okay.

Dave Bullis 49:24
So you know, when you went about writing this film, you know, actually, you know, your process of writing, I wanted to ask, you know, do you subscribe to any method? I always ask this to screenwriters, you know, meaning like you know, there's Save the Cat and there's a Sid Field method. So do you write like a heavy outline or treatment though before you begin?

Harrison Smith 49:38
I mean, sometimes you you I outline it. My business partner Mark is always like, outline it, outline it. Look, sometimes the best advice for any writer is write. That's it. Nobody can teach you the best way. Everybody's got their way. So you want to write, write. So sometimes something hits me, and I'm like, oh my god! And I'll I'll plow into the first act. I'll I'll get through the first act and the second act. Yeah, an outline. You know, Sid Field way. Sometimes you need to make sure your beats all hit. Yeah, I get all of that, and sometimes I do a beat sheet, but it depends on the project, and sometimes it depends on the mood I'm in. If I'm really passionate and I've been taken over by the moment, I just write, and then I go back and I constantly correct. I mean, writing is writing, and then it's pretty much 80% rewriting, is really what it is. I mean, you got to be smart enough to know to go back and rewrite, and I don't know who gets the credit with this phrase, but I think it was Stephen King who said, "You go back and you kill your babies. What you think may be brilliant on that page, you might have to get rid of, and that's something George Lucas could have learned.

Dave Bullis 50:54
Yeah, you know, I've also learned too in just writing myself. You'll drive yourself crazy if you sort of try to do like the the outline that so the the quote unquote script writing gurus always talk about like it has to be this by page 17 we have to see this and and what about this and I think that sort of I know at least my my own experience it's been very it almost makes a difficult task damn near impossible oh yeah because you're

Harrison Smith 51:19
You're not writing I mean, it's that balance. You can't write just for you, and you have to keep an audience in mind. But if you start trying to to write to the algorithm, as your former guests had talked about, you're defeating yourself. It's a self-defeating process, and then it becomes unpleasant, and you no longer want to write. You should write at first, almost like a mental vomit, in my opinion, and that is get it all out. There's plenty of time to go back and organize and make sure it hits the proper beats. And by like you said, page 25, all the major characters should be introduced. And by the end of Act One, something really important should have happened to close Act One. And I get all of that because in the end, we are making movies that I've seen movies which go on way too long, and you're like, ah, man, they should have just ended it here. They should have done this here, and they didn't do that. So, but I think in the end, the final analysis is just right. That's it.

Dave Bullis 52:12
Yeah, I concur. You know, something. I mean, even even now, when I when I'm you know in line somewhere, I sometimes pull out my phone and I'll pull out like Evernote and I'm like, oh, that's a good piece of dialog, or you know what I mean, like that's a good idea because I, you know, I don't really have a pen on me anymore, so it's like now with my phone, I can at least you know write on Evernote, you know, till I, so I at least have it. Yeah. Did you do you do that too? Do you do you ever

Harrison Smith 52:33
Tell people I'll hear a great line of dialog and say I'm going to steal that? Just you know, that's going to make it into a film someday What somebody said-

Dave Bullis 52:41
That's something I think a lot of writers do. I had like G. Michael Hoff on, who he he does-he's not a screenwriter, but he-but he's trying to get into it, or he's getting into it, and that's something he always was saying. Like he'll be in line for a Starbucks, he'd be like, "Oh my God! He'll be just listening to people talk behind him, and he's like, "Oh, that's a that's pretty good. I gotta get I gotta write that down. Yeah,

Harrison Smith 52:58
Oh, that's that's the best stuff. I mean, Mark Twain said it best: "Write what you know.

Dave Bullis 53:03
Yeah, very true. You know, Stephen King's on writing. By the way, I think that is the best book on a radio.

Harrison Smith 53:09
I own it. Yep, absolutely. And and I I follow it. You know, especially about um you know adverbs and things like that. Get rid of them. So I mean, I I've I've listened, and and it does improve your writing. It really does.

Dave Bullis 53:23
And I don't think you know. It's just to you know what he he usually writes novels, but I think you know anything screenwriting, you know whatever you're writing. I mean it's just everything he was talking about hit home. And I mean obviously he's a man who walks the walk because I mean how many number one bestsellers has has he had?

Harrison Smith 53:38
Well, and and that's the point because King does what is best. He just tells good stories.

Dave Bullis 53:44
Yeah,

Harrison Smith 53:45
You know. And people go, "Well, wait a minute. You know, the movies. No, no, no. You don't go buy the movies. You just go buy his books. And I mean, he's he's just there. Won't be another Stephen King for for generations to come. I mean, these these kind of people emerge every so often, and you know you don't want to be the next Stephen King. What you want is to be your own next thing instead of trying to ape or mimic Stephen King. Stephen King is successful because Stephen King came forward as Stephen King, and you you read his writing and listening to or reading, I should say, King's books and his prose, yeah, you you just kind of just settle back, and it's a very comfortable world because he's such a master storyteller.

Dave Bullis 54:27
Yeah, yeah, he he really is. To everyone listening, if you haven't checked out on writing, it is you know obviously I just said the best book on writing that I've ever come across by far and away.

Harrison Smith 54:37
It's terrific.

Dave Bullis 54:38
So you know, Harrison, you followed up Six Degrees of Hell with your directorial debut, which was Camp Dread. How did that come about? You know, did you write the screenplay, and then did you did you pitch it to anybody in particular? And you know, how did you get about you know actually getting the the director's job?

Harrison Smith 54:53
Well, I had a an investor who said I want to make this kind of slasher movie, and. I want you to do it, and he said, "I only want you to direct it. So I was like, "I guess I'm going to direct it. And he said, "Basically, I want Tit's Blood and Ass. Make sure it has that. I said, "Well, can I also write a good story? And he goes, "You can do whatever you want, but make sure it has those three things. So that's what I did, and I love Camp Dread. I think Camp Dread is a lot of fun, and we got a great cast in that. We have Daniel Harris, we have Eric Roberts, we have Phyllissa Rose, and that's how it all kind of started with Phyllissa Rose because I did not know her at the time, but in making this, I wanted her in the film to be a camp counselor, to be the big camp counselor in the film, and a guy was interviewing me for Fangoria, and he said, "You want Felicia Rose? And I said, "Yeah. He goes, "Well, I know Felicia Rose. And I said, "You do? He goes, "Yeah, you want her cell phone number? I'm like, "No, but you you could send her an email because I don't want her to think I'm some crazy stalker who's just calling her up. And he did an email introduction. Felicia Rose and I talked, and we became friends, and now we're business partners, and we've been ever since. She lives in L.A. I live on the East Coast. She's been wonderful, and she's great in Camp Dread, and most of I want a Camp Dread to be fun. It's got a great message, I think, at the end when you find out who the real villains really are in this movie, and I just I just had we had a great time making it. It was a lot of fun, and I'm very I'm very pleased with all the performances. And I think Eric Roberts. I don't know if you've seen the film, but Eric Roberts just makes such a great Hollywood scumbag.

Dave Bullis 56:40
You know, actually, Harrison, that is the only movie of yours I haven't seen.

Harrison Smith 56:43
We'll see it. Okay, it's a lot of fun. It really is, and it's just one of those you put it on at night, especially like a summer night, and you you just sit down and and let it seep into you. That's what I wanted. I we did not want just a lot of naked girls being killed, and I'm an equal opportunity offender. There's plenty of of male skin as well as female skin in the movie because chicks love a good horror film, and you know whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, it doesn't matter. Just enjoy what we put on the screen for eye candy, and we knew we were playing to a wide horror audience, and we gave them what they required, you know. And and most of all, we gave a good story, and it makes a big comment on on the search for fame and the extents that people will go to to be on TV or or win a little bit of money, and what they will do to sell out.

Dave Bullis 57:40
Yeah, I will check that out. Actually, as soon as I'm off this podcast episode with you, I'm actually going to check it out. Probably going to order it off Amazon or or wherever because I I actually have yeah, like I was saying, and you know what's funny? I actually Brian Gallagher is in the movie Camp Dread, and he's I'm actually a friend of his, and he he's a terrific guy. I'm not sure what role he plays in Camp Dread, but I remember he he actually shared a photo on set, and it was of Eric Roberts with a butterfly.

Harrison Smith 58:09
Yes,

Dave Bullis 58:10
And I was like Brian, what do you what movie is this? And he's like, I don't want to talk too much about it, but he's like, this is just you know Eric Roberts you know with this butterfly. I said, okay.

Harrison Smith 58:19
Brian plays John Hill in the film, who is a former slasher star, who's now on the convention circuit kind of thing, and he's been called back by his former director, where they were always at loggerheads while they were shooting this franchise in the 1980s. So Brian is now older and wiser, and comes back and kind of sees through what what this guy wants to do. Like Brian is not very supportive of what's of what's going on at at this camp, and it's pretty cool. I don't want to give away too many of the secrets because the ending is is a really good ending.

Dave Bullis 58:55
Very cool. So I I won't won't press you on that one because I want to see it myself.

Harrison Smith 59:00
So if you like it, please let me know what you think, and please be honest.

Dave Bullis 59:03
Oh, I will. We'll do. We'll do, Harrison. You know, and you know, you followed that up with Zombie Killer's Elephant Graveyard.

Harrison Smith 59:09
Yeah.

Dave Bullis 59:10
So you know, again, I you know, when you were writing this, you know, did you want to do something completely different, or you know, because I mean, you know, this is probably, I mean, again, I haven't seen Camp Tread yet, but I mean, it it seems different than everything else you've done to that.

Harrison Smith 59:24
It is, yeah, it's it's pretty def different. It's look to to be really you know quite frank. When I was brought the project, I tried to talk the investor for an hour out of doing it. He came to me and he said, "I want to make a horror film. I'm like, okay. He goes, I think you're the guy to do it. That's what I'm told. I'm like, okay, and we'll make you a good one. What is it? And he said, well, want to make a zombie movie? I'm like, no, you don't. He's like, yes, I do. And I said, no, you do not. I said, you wanted to make a zombie film about five years ago. Not want to do it now. The market is saturated. He's like, well, Harrison, you know, I want you to do it. If you don't want to do it, I'm going to find somebody to do it. So, look, we all have bills to pay and lights to keep on. So, I did it. I wrote a script for him that had to incorporate the sport of paintball. Now, how you do that without being laughed off the screen? Zombies and paintball. I think we managed that. We used it very organically as a training mechanism for these young orphans that were left behind, and we gave a film that had a very new and and fresh origin story for why these zombies are returning, and so good that Z Nation copied us because my zombies are generated from the results and the side effects of fracking from the natural gas and shale industry, and Z Nation stole that right from us, and I know they did because we had this way before, and the copyright proves it. And not only that, but I was in a pitch session with some people that went on to make Z Nation, and that's what they used.

Dave Bullis 1:01:12
So they basically just said, "Hey, you know, we have a similar idea, or did they say, "Hey, did you ever see?

Harrison Smith 1:01:17
They said anything. I said, "I never said anything, and all of a sudden, somebody sends me an episode of Z Nation where they said, "Look, the the fracking industry is causing zombies. I'm like, "Yeah, I wonder where the hell they got that.

Dave Bullis 1:01:28
You know, did you ever bump into somebody from Z Nation? Say, "Hey,

Harrison Smith 1:01:32
No, not yet. But I'll I'll be bumping into them. I'm sure you know in L.A. probably after April. Yeah, and I'll be like, "Yeah, you fairly stole it. You know what I mean? Like that's fine. You know, I mean, we-it's not like we copyrighted the issue that they can't use it. You know, but it just shows that we were on the right track because they took it, and we were the first.

Dave Bullis 1:01:53
So when when you said you found the producer, you know, he approached you with this project. Was that because of all your past, you know, past success, or was that because your people from your network were the ones recommending you?

Harrison Smith 1:02:04
He had done his research on me as a filmmaker, and he also knew that I wasn't going to rob him blind. You know, a lot of these guys that want to get these movies made, they take them to people that have like two or three producers, and instantly the producers pad the budget with their producer fees. So we made zombie killers for just around a million bucks to make this movie the legitimate LA way would have been three to 5 million. No, I don't know. I mean, I think the best thing is is that you you just have your reputation, and that is you're making movies. Like that's it. You you can go onto IMDb, and a lot of these people, you know, I call them IMDb whores because they they have like you know five pages of IMDb stuff, and a lot of it is just bogus, you know, filler that they post on there. If you go on my IMDb, it's very simple. What I've produced is there. You don't see 20 things in pre production or in development, what I've done is there, and what I have in pre-production is actively being worked on in pre-production. So I think when people see that and they go, "Okay, you're not trying to blow smoke up our ass, that helps. So you know, we we get movies made. That's that's the difference. You you come to me with a million bucks or under a million, we will get the movie made, and we will make a good movie. It will look good. It will get great distribution. All my films have solid distribution with great titles: Anchor Bay, RGL Entertainment. You know, Image. We've done well, and and that's really what it comes down to. Well done is better than well said, and that's the way you have to operate in this business. Anybody can talk, and I've I've taught people that don't go to an investor and tell them, oh, this is going to make $500 million and it's going to be the next this. Don't tell them that. Just tell them the straight up, and that is filmmaking is a very volatile business, and it's probably the worst investment that anybody with expendable cash can put into, you have a better chance of making your money back by going to Atlantic City and putting your money on the roulette wheel and getting something back than you do making a profit on a film. And although many people say, "Well, I would never tell them that, that is the honest answer. The real answer, or the the fluffed up answer that people give, is, "Oh, it's going to do this, and we're going to make this. You don't know. You have no idea what a film is going to do. You know, look look at what happened when that guy shot up the theater with The Dark Knight Rises. That cost that that picture money. Now a lesser film wouldn't have survived something like that. But because you know it's The Dark Knight Rises, yeah, took a hit, but it's going to still make its money. You don't know what's going to happen, or or how the political or economic climate of the country is going to change by the time your film is ready for release. Anything can happen. You never guarantee an investor their money back. You tell them it's a risk. Then that's why it's called an investment. Otherwise, it would be a guarantee. It's not a guarantee. Nothing is guaranteed in this industry. You could have your star die halfway through the film. How do you know what's going to happen? A tornado could wreck your set. You don't know, so if you're honest with them, they respect that. I mean, my first investor, he told me, said, "Kid, you're you're talking yourself right out of the film. I said, "No, I'm just being upfront with you. You should know that I'm I'm telling you the truth that you can trust me on this, you know. And and that's that's the best way I operate. I mean, I I never tell them this is going to make 500 million, 200 million, 20 million. How the hell do I know that? I don't know anything about that.

Dave Bullis 1:05:30
Yeah, and that is true, Arison. You know, you know Jason Brewbaker, who works with Distributor. You know, he he often says that. He says, you know, you can't guarantee this is going to get into Sundance. You can't guarantee it's going to go into slam dance. No. So you know

Harrison Smith 1:05:44
You could have the greatest star in the world. I mean, I could get Brad Pitt to. I mean, I can't. But if I did get Brad Pitt to even do something for free for me, how do I know that movie's going to make money? You know, how do I know that you know people aren't tired of Brad Pitt? I mean, look, zombie killers. You know, I tried to tell my my investor, you're going to deal with zombie fatigue. The Redbox, all of them, they're they're going to be tired of this by the time this film is out. Now we've done well with zombie killers, but if this were made five six years ago, I think we would have done even better. But you have to try to know your market. I mean, zombie movies. I've written a piece on it. Why I made a zombie film, and that is, I wanted to try to do something legitimate and different, and most of all, good, which we did do. We made a good film, but the real problem with the zombie film is, is I still stand by it today. It's lazy filmmaking. Everybody makes a damn zombie movie because they think it's easy, you know. And really, the plot doesn't change. I mean, it's always about people surviving. That's all it is, you know. And and people like that. It's a comfortable routine. I mean, no matter how good The Walking Dead is, which I believe it is, I think it's well made and it's well produced. And I've said this a number of times in interviews. It's still the same damn thing every week. People argue and zombies attack. That's it. That's all it is, and that's fine if that's what you want from your horror.

Dave Bullis 1:07:04
You know, you mentioned zombie fatigue. I actually remember what I was going to say to you. Now, a friend of mine, she's actually been on the show as well. She actually had a zombie film. It was just a screenplay a couple years ago, and she went out to one of these pitch fest out in L.A. And before she was about to pitch. They, the the one person, put up their hand. You know, us stopped and just said, "Now before you begin, we don't want to hear any zombie pitches. And she said, "She goes, that's that that's what I'm about to pitch you. And she said, and the person said, "Well, we're gonna, you know, we're very sorry, but we're we're she's like we're we're not gonna hear any more zombie pitches because you know we're we're hearing them left, right, and center.

Harrison Smith 1:07:44
Sure, and there's reasons for that because everybody thinks you know look get a get a red camera and get 25 of your friends to spit goop out of their mouth and run around and rip shirts and you got a zombie movie. That's not how it works, and it it it gives off the illusion that they're just really easy to make, and they're not. But you know, and and I got flack because I wrote in one piece. I said that the zombie movie is kind of like the NASCAR of horror, and you know somebody's like, oh, so he thinks anybody who goes to NASCAR is stupid. No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is though, it goes around in a circle. You know where it begins. You know where it ends, and you you face it. You hope for a couple interesting crashes in between. That's it. You know what? What more can we do with zombies, Dave? What what more can we do other than stick them in space? What more can we do? How many spinoffs of The Walking Dead do we need? I mean, when you see these people on Twitter, oh my God, Sunday's coming. I wonder what's going to happen. I don't know. What do you think's going to happen? You think some zombies are going to bite some people? You you think somebody might die? I mean, the only thing that that show really does is who's going to be the next big cast member to die? Like that's it, right? That's all it is. Who's will will you know Daryl be killed off? Will Norman Reedus make it till next season. I mean, that's all it is. You know, it's it's kind of like a constant who shot Jr. kind of thing. That it just keeps you going to the next one. You know, so I don't know. I mean, if that's what people like, then what's wrong with that? They like it. Great. I mean, the movie's making far more money than Zombie Killers is. So I mean, the show is. So good luck to them, you know. I mean, if that's what people want, good for them.

Dave Bullis 1:09:24
Well, my my next idea, Harrison, is zombies in space. So they put they they put Jason in space. They put Jason in space. I'm gonna put I'm gonna have zombies in space, right? No, you know, a friend of mine who I used to a podcast with said he thinks zombies will have jumped the shark when they can fall in love, and then out came. Yeah, that's right. Warm bodies.

Harrison Smith 1:09:45
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:09:46
And and he was like, "There you go. We are officially done.

Harrison Smith 1:09:50
It is. It jumped the shark a long time ago. But I don't know if you know. Again, other than *Night of the Living Dead* and those films, what more can you do? It's you know. I mean, everybody says, "Oh, I love The Walking Dead because it's a soap opera. Well, why does horror have to be a soap? I don't know if I want my horror to be a soap opera. But if that's what you like, good for you, man. It's making money and it makes people happy. So if if they love it, good for them.

Dave Bullis 1:10:25
I still don't think that anybody, any you know, zombie films or even zombie TV shows. I mean, I I still love the original Dawn of the Dead. is my absolute favorite zombie film that I've ever seen by far and away. And it's just it's just because it just it feels like it just hit every important you know issue at the time, and also it's just entertaining as hell.

Harrison Smith 1:10:48
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, it's it's just great.

Dave Bullis 1:10:52
And you know, I'm I'm a huge Romero fan anyway. But I don't I'm sorry I don't want to get sidetracked about talking about whatever Romero. But but you know I actually do want to talk to you. You know your upcoming film, Death House. Now I I know you probably can't talk too much about it because you know it's it's it's obviously it's still in the whole pre production process. But you know I saw the IMDb, and so far you have casted you know Danny Trejo, Robert England, Michael Berryman, Kane Hodder, Bill Moseley. You know I just imagine from a producing standpoint that it must be damn near impossible to get that accomplished because those guys are always working. You know what I mean? And just getting them all in the same time, it must be like one of those things where like all the stars have to align and the planets are coming into into you know.

Harrison Smith 1:11:38
Yeah, I'll I'll be able to give you. I have to go in about like five minutes.

Dave Bullis 1:11:42
Oh, okay.

Harrison Smith 1:11:42
Sorry about that. We've been on like an hour.

Dave Bullis 1:11:47
Yeah, we've actually been talking for an hour and 15 minutes.

Harrison Smith 1:11:49
I love it. I but I do have a commitment that I have to get to in a second. However, yeah, I mean, you you said it best about the stars aligning. You got to be getting these people at the right time, and the hardest part, Dave, with all of that is is ensemble casting. You know, it's it's it's one of those where Gunnar Hanson really wanted to get as many of these names in as he could, and a lot of people in in this industry knew Gunner, so it's it's hard, you know, to to get them all to the table and you know, make sure that everybody is feeling treated fairly, if that makes any sense. That that they all feel that they're being approached for the right reasons and not just for stunt casting or or things like that. And and believe me, none none of that was the case at all. We want to include as many of these luminaries as we can because I look at it as more than just that the media dubbed it the the expendables of horror. I look at it as more of it's a mad, mad, mad, mad world where you're you're taking some of these really great names who are not going to be around forever. I love Death House like 30 years from now to have people you know come back and look at it again and go, wow, these were you know some of the crown jewels of the genre at the time, and so you know we're trying to make it out of respect to the names. But I can tell you this: we have a damn good script, and the reason why I know that is I sent the script out to a number of film critics, respected and established horror trade magazines, that I told them, I said, listen. If you hate it, all I ask is you wait until the film is out, and then you can trash it all you want. But I'm giving you a scoop. Not a single one of them came back and said, "Oh my God, this is not good. They said, "If you make this script the way that you've written it, you got a winner, and that's how we're going to make it. So that's how confident I was in the script. And one of them was a prominent horror critic as well too, and I said, "I want you to be honest with me. If it's not good, or you feel that this has problems, I need to know. And that's how confident I was.

Dave Bullis 1:13:52
That's amazing that you're able to, you know, you know, not have any feedback. I guess you know what I mean. Like it's so good. You okay? If it's bad, tell me, and you hear nothing, right? So that I guess you know that has to, you know, that has to fill you with such confidence going forward that you're like, you know, I I know it's a damn good script, and now I have somebody else, you know, other people tell me it's a damn good script, so now it's like all engines forward.

Harrison Smith 1:14:17
Yes, and and you know, it's it's not even just confidence. It's just simply we're doing the right thing here. We're not making a gimmick movie. We're not making like some people think. If you can make this clear on your podcast, this isn't Michael Myers fighting Jason or Freddy Krueger. That's not what this is. These those are copyrighted characters. These are the actors who happen to play these people, but they're all in different roles, so it's not like you know Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, where we're going to mash up all the monsters. That's not what we're doing here. So that's that's something I want clear. And then on on the second end of it, we're treating this as you know a really good commentary, you know on. This story, okay, and and and most of all, the genre. We're treating the genre with respect, and that's important because it's not just about throwing in a bunch of horror names and killing them off one by one. And Gunnar never wanted that. Gunner wanted something that was substantial and that it was a definite tip of the hat and a tip of a respectful tip of the hat to the genre to the horror genre.

Dave Bullis 1:15:22
Yeah, I'm I'm glad you said it, Harrison, because I remember reading when when when news of this broke on some of the sites. Remember some of the comments were like, "Oh my God, it's going to be Leatherface fighting Jason and and I and I I mean I knew because you know like you just said they're all different copyrighted characters and and getting getting all of the trademarks for those names and likenesses and all that that would be a a legal nightmare.

Harrison Smith 1:15:43
Couldn't do it. So you couldn't do it.

Dave Bullis 1:15:43
So I know you have to go. Somebody actually walked into your room there. I could see. It's but it's like a horror movie itself. Like oh my god, there's somebody behind you.

Harrison Smith 1:15:53
Like unfriended or something like that. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:15:55
Yeah. Yeah. They had unfriended, and there was also a scream on one of the screams too. They had the people were behind them. They couldn't see,

Harrison Smith 1:16:01
Right! And and Halloween Resurrection, they did that too, or something. But

Dave Bullis 1:16:05
Yeah, remember it was with when oh Busta Rhymes and Tyra Banks, right?

Harrison Smith 1:16:13
The Jaws, the Revenge of Slasher Films.

Dave Bullis 1:16:18
Harrison, I know you have to go, but before you go, where people find you out online?

Harrison Smith 1:16:22
Oh, you can find me online at my my company site, which is www.class85.com, and you can find me on Twitter, HarrisonSmith85, on on Twitter. I think that's my handle. I'm pretty sure I should look.

Dave Bullis 1:16:36
Yeah, yeah, I think that is. It is okay. Yeah,

Harrison Smith 1:16:40
I'm not really good with self promotion in that way, and yeah, I mean you can find all my films. They're everywhere. They're on Amazon. They're on iTunes, Hulu, pretty much everywhere. You can find them, and I've had plenty of people tell me that they're torrented like crazy. So, oh,

Dave Bullis 1:16:55
I actually have a Hulu account, so I'll check out I'll check out Camp Dread on Hulu.

Harrison Smith 1:16:59
I think Camp Dread's on Hulu. I know the fields and six degrees are definitely on Hulu as well, but yeah, and if not, I know that you can stream Camp Dread right off of Amazon.

Dave Bullis 1:17:09
All right, cool, awesome. I usually prefer the physical copy. I actually started going back and forth between digital media and physical media. Now, big

Harrison Smith 1:17:16
Physical media person, I like it on DVD.

Dave Bullis 1:17:19
Yeah, that that that's what I've I've come back to now. I'm like I'm making sure I get everything criterion like Blu-ray if I can, or you know now because I'm you know I'm always a little leery now about digital media, but that's a whole nother story, right?

Harrison Smith 1:17:34
Yes, it is. I I share your wariness,

Dave Bullis 1:17:35
Harrison Smith. I want to say thank you very much for coming on, and I wish you the best with with Death House.

Harrison Smith 1:17:40
Thank you, and we'll we'll give you some updates as we get moving on that. We start shooting april 4.

Dave Bullis 1:17:44
Oh, wow! So you're like you're you're like feeling the pressure right now.

Harrison Smith 1:17:49
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:17:50
Harrison. Again, I want to wish you the best of luck, and I look forward to hearing how how well it turns out.

Harrison Smith 1:17:56
Thank you, and thanks for having me on the show.

Dave Bullis 1:17:58
Oh, my pleasure, Harrison. Take care, buddy.

Harrison Smith 1:18:00
Have a good weekend.

Dave Bullis 1:18:01
You too. Bye bye.

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BPS 486: Wes Craven’s Secret to Writing Great Movies with Glenn Benest

August 27, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every screenwriter begins with the same hope: that the first script will somehow reveal hidden genius. Reality, however, has a different lesson planned. In this conversation, Glenn Benest—a veteran screenwriter with films directed by Wes Craven and decades of experience mentoring writers—offers something far more valuable than shortcuts. He presents a philosophy built on persistence, revision, mentorship, and the understanding that professional writing is less about inspiration than continuous refinement.

Glenn’s journey didn’t begin with Hollywood in mind. He initially dreamed of becoming a playwright, studying at Harvard before earning an MFA in playwriting at UCLA. Theater gave him a deep appreciation for dialogue, structure, and performance, but it also taught him a practical reality: very few playwrights make a living. That realization led him toward screenwriting, where storytelling skills could reach larger audiences while still honoring the dramatic craft he loved. Looking back, he makes a compelling distinction. Film school can be invaluable for directors and cinematographers who need equipment and crews, but for screenwriters, the true currency isn’t a diploma—it’s an exceptional screenplay. Your script, not your résumé, opens doors.

One of the defining chapters of Glenn’s career came through working with Wes Craven before Craven became a household name. Collaborating on A Stranger in Our House and later Deadly Blessing, Glenn witnessed firsthand how a master filmmaker approached horror. Craven understood something many writers overlook: audiences come to a genre expecting emotional payoffs. Horror fans want unforgettable scares. Thriller audiences crave suspense. Comedy audiences expect laughter. Character and dialogue matter enormously, but they must ultimately serve the promise made by the genre itself. As Glenn explains, the most memorable films are those that deliver moments audiences have never experienced before. Originality often comes from reinventing familiar ideas rather than inventing entirely new plots.

The conversation becomes especially fascinating when Glenn reflects on mentoring Kevin Williamson during the development of what would become Scream. Rather than merely celebrating the film’s success, Glenn explains why it worked. The screenplay respected horror traditions while simultaneously playfully dissecting them. It balanced wit with genuine suspense, allowing audiences to laugh without ever forgetting they were watching a horror movie. That careful balance of tone is one of the most difficult skills for any writer to master, and Glenn’s recollections demonstrate how workshops, constructive criticism, and collaboration elevate promising ideas into enduring films.

Perhaps the strongest lesson throughout the discussion concerns feedback. Glenn repeatedly argues that writers don’t simply need opinions—they need informed guidance. Random notes from friends or family often create confusion instead of clarity. Productive feedback identifies genuine structural problems while preserving the writer’s confidence. Like elite athletes relying on experienced coaches, writers benefit from mentors who understand both craft and psychology. Every rewrite should move the screenplay closer to its potential. If revisions consistently make the script weaker, the problem often lies not in the writer but in the quality of the advice being followed.

Glenn also dismantles one of the biggest myths surrounding first drafts. Too many writers freeze because they expect perfection immediately. Instead, he encourages writers to simply let the story pour onto the page. The first draft isn’t meant to impress anyone—it’s meant to exist. Only after completing it can real rewriting begin. Problems become solvable once they’re visible. Each successive draft addresses different weaknesses until the screenplay evolves into something genuinely compelling. This patient, iterative approach stands in sharp contrast to the romantic notion of effortless inspiration and offers a far more sustainable path toward mastery.

What emerges from Glenn Benest’s career is a vision of screenwriting built not on talent alone but on discipline, humility, and community. Great scripts are rarely created in isolation. They grow through collaboration, intelligent criticism, repeated revision, and the courage to remain confident even when the work feels unfinished. For aspiring filmmakers, that’s perhaps the most encouraging lesson of all. Excellence isn’t reserved for the naturally gifted; it’s earned by those willing to keep rewriting until the story finally becomes everything it was meant to be.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:32
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
My next guest has written two films for Wes Craven and has been in the film business for over 30 years, so here we go with Glenn Benest. Hey everyone, thanks again for joining me for another episode of the Dave Bullis Podcast. Joining me today is Glenn M. Benest. Glenn is an award-winning writer producer. He received his bachelor's degree at Harvard University and his master's of fine arts at UCLA in playwriting. He has seven produced film credits, including two films he wrote for Wes Craven. In 2004, he wrote and produced his own independent film, Hungry Heart, which was picked up by Shoreline Entertainment for worldwide distribution. Glenn, how are you, sir?

Glenn Benest 2:33
Very good.

Dave Bullis 2:34
Excellent. So, you know, just to get started, you know, so you went to Harvard University and you got your bachelor's degree, and then you went to UCLA to get your master's in playwriting. So you know, when you were going to school at Harvard, did you know exactly what you wanted to do? Like, did you know you wanted to become a screenwriter?

Glenn Benest 2:50
No, I actually wanted to be a playwright, and I was very involved in theater. I love theater. I love the great playwrights that I read, like Harold Pinter, and people like that, and but I knew very little about the actual mechanics of theater. It was mostly just what I had studied. So I decided that I would get a master of fine arts in playwriting and really learn the learn about acting, learn about directing, learn about the stage, and so I went to UCLA, and it was a great experience because we put on plays and we acted, we did certain things like that. But when I graduated, I realized I really couldn't make a living as a playwright because very few people do, maybe a handful of people make a living as a as a as playwright. So I didn't want to do it as a hobby, and I was in L.A. anyway. So I thought, well, playwriting isn't that different than screenwriting. So I'll get into screenwriting. That was my thought process.

Dave Bullis 4:01
So you know, I wanted to. I always ask this to everybody, you know, because you went to school for specifically for playwriting. But you know, I always ask for those who actually went to college for film. So do you do you think it benefited you a lot? You know, looking back, do you think that it was very beneficial that you went to to to Harvard and then to UCLA, or do you think you know? Looking back, you would have taken a different path.

Glenn Benest 4:23
Well, for me, just because my background had been academic, and you know, at Harvard is a very intellectual place, so I really wanted to know the industry. I wanted to really know the ins and outs of theater. So for me, having a theat going into a place that that was big on theater and actually being part of putting on plays was extremely beneficial because it wasn't just some abstract thing anymore. But my point of view about you know. A lot of writers ask me, "Do you think I should go go into a film school, like after they graduate undergraduate and go to a film school like at USC or UCLA or NYU or those places? I for screenwriters, I don't really think that you need to do that. Number one, it's extremely expensive to get a two-year degree at MFA in in screenwriting. Let's say at UCLA or USC or NYU, those big schools, because all you to really make it as a screenwriter, what you need your calling card. Nobody cares if you went to film school. Absolutely nobody. All they care about is can you produce, and if you have a great screenplay, that's your calling card into the industry. People read it and they realize, wow, this guy is a really good writer. This woman is a really great writer. And even if they don't buy that screenplay, they can tend to get you to write a project that they have, so they hire you to do other things. So what you need is not a diploma from USC. You need a great screenplay, and it's a lot cheaper to create a great screenplay in a in a screenwriting workshop or take some classes rather than spend $30,000 a year to go to USC. If you were a, if you wanted to be a cinematographer or even a director, I can see the benefit of going to a film school because all the equipment is there, and you have crews that you can put, you can cobble together from your other students, and you can do shoots. So that's very beneficial. But for a screenwriter, I don't, I don't see the point. I really don't.

Dave Bullis 6:56
Yeah, you know that's a good point, Glenn. Because you know there's such a plethora now of resources to for people who do want to do screenwriting. I know you can't see me right now because this is the podcast, but to my left, there is just books upon books on screenwriting. There's a few DVDs that I I have been I've collected over the years, like you know the the one of Chris Vogler's DVDs, and like you said, there's online. There's even online screenwriting classes now, you know, where you can actually take a class and actually work through your screenplay through a coach, you know, and you could be living anywhere in the world and and still be in touch with one another.

Glenn Benest 7:30
Yeah, I, you know, I mean, what I would try to do is I would try to study under somebody who really has been in the business, has gotten films produced has has their own films produced and really knows what it takes to take a screenplay and to get it to the point where it can be sold, and that's that's a really unique talent. Not I wouldn't study under anybody who hasn't done that because they can talk all they want, but until you get a film produced, you have no idea really what it takes and what what a screen where you need to take a screenplay, and it's not just writing one or two drafts; it's writing many drafts and keep pushing it to be better and better and better. When I was young, I was lucky because I hooked up with Wes Craven, and Wes Craven at that time was not famous. He had just done a few little independent horror films, but he was definitely someone on the way up, and he knew film. He knew how to get a film made, and he knew what it took to get a screenplay into good enough shape so that it could be produced, and working with him taught me so much. And everybody needs a mentor like that. If you want to be a world-class athlete, you're going to have a coach, and that coach is going to be able to push you to the point where you could win a gold medal, and it's the same with every other athlete. It' the same with tennis players who are professional tennis players on the tour. They all have coaches. There's not one that doesn't have a coach. So, if world-class athletes need coaches, so do artists. Because we're really not that different from athletes. We're trying to get to a higher level of performance, and we really can't do it on our own. We need somebody who has that outside point of view that can keep pushing us knows what it takes and gives us great feedback, just like a great coach would be giving a tennis player great feedback into how to improve their game and that's what writers need as well. So, however you find that person, you know you don't want to just take feedback from just anybody. You know it's got to be not just some friend, your girlfriend, your wife, or whatever. That that can help you absolutely. That does absolutely no good. You need somebody who's a professional who knows what to look for, who knows how to give you really great feedback, so that every time you do a path on a screenplay, it gets better and better and better, and the talent to do that doesn't come around all the time. Even people that work for studios and work for networks, and their job is to give notes. Even those people who supposedly know what they're doing don't always give you the best notes. So you really need to find that mentor, and that is going to be a lot more valuable than going to USC for me, anyway, to to become a screenwriter.

Dave Bullis 11:13
So you know when when you first met you know Wes Craven, your first movie that you that you wrote and that he actually directed was Stranger in our house, which was in 1977, 1978. So, Glenn, if you could, could you take us through, you know, how you wrote the screenplay, meaning your process to actually write it, and how you actually first met Wes, and how you guys developed that relationship?

Glenn Benest 11:34
Well, A Stranger in Our House was based on a book, so I already had it was a novel by Lois Duncan, who's a pretty well-known writer, writes mysteries in suspense. So I already had that groundwork of the story, and that's extremely helpful, as you can imagine, for a screenwriter. You already have the story worked out. So I adapted it as a screenplay, but to tell you the truth, I didn't make that many major changes, and we wanted. It was already sold to NBC. They had a deal with Linda Blair to do movies with her. This is after The Exorcist, and she was a kind of a. I think she was around 16 or 17 at that point, something like that. And so they wanted that movie for for Linda Blair, and we were looking for a horror director, and we knew we known about Wes because he had done he had done The Last House on the Last, and he had done The Hills Have Eyes, but like I said, he wasn't at all famous. Very few people knew about him except people in the independent world, and so they sold West to NBC, which was a great thanks for West because it was his first television movie. It was really his first real mainstream thing, and he did a really good job with that. They it got good numbers, and so when so when I and I wrote the screenplay called Deadly Blessing with my writing partner Matthew Barr, and so we wanted to set that up as a feature, and of course we thought of Wes because we already had this relationship with him, so we worked with Wes. He gave us notes, and we we wrote the script a couple times according to his notes, and then he even did a pass of his own on it. And then we were fortunate enough at the time. It was funny because Deadly Blessing had been around for about three years, and we always got great feedback for it, but nobody was willing to buy it. And then all of a sudden, everybody wanted horror movies. I don't know why that was. It was just like these cycles come and go, and so literally in in a one week, we had two or three offers after three years of not being able to sell it, and we already had Wes attached as a director, so that made it way more attractive, because if you have because it's hard to find the right director if you've already got a great director attached, then it's that much easier to sell a project because they can go right into production, and that's what happened with Deadly Blessing. So they just bought the script, they had Wes, and they started to cast it. It was it was real easy.

Dave Bullis 14:33
So now just going back to what we were just discussing about a mentor and writing you know different drafts of the screenplay. You know what were some of the things that you learned by working with Wes on this film that you were able to sort of carry on to the next project, the next project throughout your whole career?

Glenn Benest 14:50
Well, you know, Wes is the master of horror, so even though I was always attracted to horror, I didn't. Understand horror the way that Wes did, and what he brought to the screenplay was those horror set pieces, where you know a series of scenes that build to a horrifying conclusion. Right, those are set pieces, and they're set pieces in horror, just like they're set pieces in action, or they're set pieces in comedy. And those are the best moments of the film. So you really want to milk those. You have to identify number one: what? Why are people coming to this movie? Okay, they come to a horror movie to be scared, they don't come for character development. They don't come for great dialog. They don't come for great characterization. Not to say that you don't want those things, but that's not why they came to your movie. They came to your movie to be scared, and I think Wes understood that better than anybody. So he would find these moments and then really milk the hell out of them to make them scarier and scarier. So I learned that from him, and it was because I you know after I wrote after I did Deadly Blessing, I didn't do horror anymore. I decided I wanted I didn't want to spend my entire career writing horror movies. I wanted to try new things, so I got into suspense. I did comedies. I did drama. I did westerns. I mean, I wrote in every genre, and but in every genre, like I say, you need to be smart about what you're selling, and if you're selling a thriller, you've got to have great thriller moments. And I think that's the most obvious thing. And yet, writers don't seem to understand that, especially beginning writers. They get so caught up in their characters and their story, and they don't, you know, pull back and go, how, what's going to sell this movie, and what's going to sell your movie if it's a thriller are great moments of thrills. What's going to sell an action film are great action sequences, and the more original they are, the better. So, if you do an action movie and you do an action sequence that no one's ever seen before, like if you do like car chase, is a perfect example. We've seen a million car chases, but what makes this car chase different and original in comparison to all the other car chases we've seen. So you you have to come up with those things, so that audiences who came to be thrilled, to be shocked, to laugh, to whatever they came for, you have to give them that, or they're going to leave unsatisfied, and that goes beyond, like, you know, artistic concerns, esthetic concerns. These are things that you kind of learn as you become more of a professional, and I think Wes, like I said, he taught me that about horror, and now I'm kind of going back to horror. I just wrote a novel called Ink I N K, which is kind of a horror romance. It's a novel that just got published last year, and when I wrote that, I was also like very aware of where am I paying off? People came to be scared. Where are they being scared? And how original is that? And how many great moments can I find like that? And the same now. I just wrote a teen horror film, and I'm very aware of paying off the expectations of the audience, and they, you know, audiences today are very jaded. They've seen everything, so how are you going to give them something that is going to be a little different? That's going to make them when they leave the movie theaters, and they tell their friend, "Oh my God, you've got to go see this movie. It can't just be the same old thing over and over again. It has to be something unique and a little bit different in some way. Even though all plots have been done over and over again, but it's how you tweak those plots to make them your own.

Dave Bullis 19:43
So, Glenn, have you seen any movies recently? Like, let's say in the past five years, like any horror movies that have really stuck out to you?

Glenn Benest 19:51
Yeah. Well, you know, I've I like to see horror movies. Most of the time, I get very disappointed and bored, but there was one I saw last year that I was impressed by called "It Follows, and that was pretty cool. That was different. It was very low budget. It's just these teens, but then I won't. I won't go too much into it because I don't want to ruin it for people. But that is a that was a unique plot that I had never seen before, and it had just enough scares to keep you on the edge of your seat, and it was pretty freaky. And I think the freakier it is, the better. You know, you learn like what is it that horror fans like. Well, one thing they like is freaky stuff. They also like it. They also like gore. You know, when you when you watch The Walking Dead, which is like my favorite TV show now, there's lots of gore. It's it's pretty. I mean, they really pay that off with the with the zombies, and you. though they have great characters and good character development and interesting relationships, but they do pay off the horror. And I'm really surprised today. One thing I'm surprised today about horror is how many women and young, in young women, teens, girls, love horror. That was not so much when I was starting to write horror. It was mostly guys I thought who went to horror and they brought their girlfriends along, but that's not the case anymore. There are a lot of women and middle-aged women, older women, especially younger women, who love horror, maybe more even than guys, and I think that's that that really surprised me.

Dave Bullis 22:09
I actually know I have some girls that are that are friends of mine. They all love horror. Some of their favorites are like the Paranormal Activities,

Glenn Benest 22:17
Right!

Dave Bullis 22:18
Stuff like that. They they they really like that stuff. Not so much like the Saul or the hostiles, but the the paranormal activities, like the spirit supernatural stuff. They really enjoy.

Glenn Benest 22:26
Yeah, I'm not a fan of hostel and and those and saw no, they're just that. Just is not appealing to me. I like core that has really good stories. That used to be, you know, when John Carpenter was making horror films, and like The Thing, and with Craven was at the top of his game with Nightmare on Elm Street and Scream. Scream was written in my workshop, one of my screenwriting workshops, so I know that film really well. That's you know you really good stories with great characters, really good dialog, but it paid off in the the way that you know it was scary. It was very. I see a lot of horror movies. I just don't think they're scary, you know. And I just go, "Wow, this isn't gonna work. I mean, so it's a whole separate genre when you talk about horror. Even though it has similarities with other genres, it's really a genre unto itself, and it has its own rules, and they're not necessarily the same rules as a typical drama or thriller or something like that. But you know, there will always be horror. There will always be zombie movies. There will always be vampire movies. There will always be werewolf movies. But you just have to find a unique take on them. Something that

Dave Bullis 24:06
So so so, but I have to ask. You know, I'm sorry. I sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to ask you really quickly. What did you think of the Walking Dead finale? Without giving too much away,

Glenn Benest 24:16
I thought it was really good. I you know I've I love The Walking Dead. The one thing that I, the one criticism I have, The Walking Dead, even though I love the show, it's one of the best shows I've ever seen, is that it seems like it's gone downhill a bit. And one of the things that they do that really annoys me is that they'll start a storyline, like for example Rick and Michonne, you know that love affair, and then they just drop it, or they'll start a storyline like with Carl, Rick's son, that he was he said, "I'm a monster too, and he was getting kind of dark. And then they just stop it. They just drop it, and you get nothing more about it. And I don't know why they do that. They just seem to lose interest. They'll start something going, and then they just seem to lose interest in it. I think that's really frustrating for the audience. Or yeah, or they oh they do something that doesn't make a lot of sense, like Carol, who all of a sudden decides to leave them. She says, "I can't kill for you anymore, or whatever she said, and then she just left, and that made absolutely no sense to me. Like, why would she leave? Why would she want to do that? You know, she's been killing people for for a number of seasons now. She didn't seem to have any problem with it, and now all of a sudden she does, and then she just abruptly leaves. And I just thought, like, this makes no sense. So there's there's there's certain things that they seem to be having problems. I don't know. They, you know, they when it's it's very hard to keep the quality of a show going. You know, year after year after year. This is what their sixth season or something.

Dave Bullis 26:15
Yes,

Glenn Benest 26:15
And and you know it's very difficult to keep the quality up, and that's why you know shows like Feinfeld or Friends or Cheers, you know, they kept the quality up for you know many years, and that's a remarkable thing to do, because most times a show will go five six years and then they just burn out. They they don't know what to do anymore, because it's very difficult, and it looks like they're having those problems now on The Walking Dead. They don't seem to have a good direction of what they want to do. So, although, like I say, I I love that show. I'm absolutely crazy about. I'm on Twitter, and all of my followers basically are like Walking Dead fans.

Dave Bullis 27:04
So, because with the way you know this season, the sixth season ended was the introduction of the character Negan, and yeah, and then when he got you know he he ends up you know killing one of the main characters, but you don't see who because we went to that POV of the character. You know, now some fans are like, "Wow, that was a very cheap way to end it, because now we have to wait to October for season seven to see who we killed, and you know, right? It's you know, I I I mean, I really didn't have that much of a problem with the ending, but you know, I can I think I can see why some people would have you know have an issue with it.

Glenn Benest 27:37
Oh yeah, I mean, the the one good thing that Walking Dead is it about killing off like characters that people like, you know, because like if you really invest in a character and then they kill them, I mean that can drive you crazy, but they seem to have done pretty good. Like one show that has not done well in that way is Game of Thrones. They've killed off the most, you know, the the the characters that you really are rooting for, and that after a while you just go, okay, that's it. I'm not going to watch this anyway, and then it's because they kill off the the characters that are actually the ones rebelling against the Lannisters, and that's really what keeps the show going. Who's going to destroy the Lannisters? Who's going to, you know, lead the rebellion? And once they killed off the main characters leading the rebellion, they just floundered. There was nobody to follow. Like, who am I going to follow now? Who do I care about now? And if you don't do that really well. I know he's the the same with the books. The books are the same. I mean, they follow the books very. Do you watch that show, Game of Thrones?

Dave Bullis 28:49
Oh yeah, absolutely. I honestly, Glenn, like that. That show was one show I didn't even want to get into, and then when I did, I honestly I couldn't wait till every every every episode. I was like hooked beyond belief.

Glenn Benest 29:02
Yeah, no, I love the show, especially except until it hit this the season where they killed off you know the mother and the son who were leading the rebellion, right? And then that which was and then the last seat, which was last season, was after that, and I just thought they were floundering. They they really didn't know. Okay, who am I following now? Whose story do I care about? And I and I I thought they, you know, the only character I think that's worthy of being the protagonist of that show is the Khaleesi, you know, the mother of dragon. She's a great character, unbelievable character, and she's worthy of being the star of that show. And you would follow her anywhere, but she was still kind of in the background. So I think they've got to put that figure out. You know, I think they lost some of their fan base because of that.

Dave Bullis 30:18
And now with this new season coming up, which is going to start at the end of this month, you know, April 2016. The new season now starts, and it's not based on any of the books. Well, it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sorry. I meant to say is, it is based on the books, but these books haven't been released yet because last season they caught they are all caught up now. So this new season will all be stuff that is going to be. So now it's going to be out before the books are out.

Glenn Benest 30:42
Oh, that'll be interesting. I just hope it's they bring in Khaleesi a lot more because she's got a great story, and she's a very, very interesting character. Very complex. You never quite know what she's going to do. She makes interesting choices, and they all kind of make sense for who she is. But yeah, she's a terrific character. But I mean, like here's like the perfect example: first season of Game of Thrones, the guy that you were following, who you thought was the star of the show, gets killed at the end of the first season, and it was like, what? You know, any other show would never do something like that. You invest in a character, and he's the star, and then you kill him. It was like, oh my god, I can't believe that happened. But you know, that's what they've done.

Dave Bullis 31:38
So you know, Glenn, you know, just to, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go talk too much about The Walking Dead, but I wanted to talk to well, you know, just to talk more about you know your career and your work. You know, you mentioned that you know during your one of your screenwriting workshops, you know, one of your students actually wrote Scream. You know, that's actually that's actually you know incredibly interesting because I remember the first time I saw Scream, you know, I got it. You know what I mean. And what I mean by I got it means I what I mean by that is it was it was a it was a love letter to the slasher genre because I they they elevated it because they you know it had so many you know twists and turns and and you know Scream was you know created by Kevin Williamson. I actually read the screenplay in a horror class I actually took, and so I wanted to you know if we could you know about developing that screenplay. I mean I think you know any any sort of you know anecdotes or any stories you have about that were you know about you know guiding Kevin through that. If you could tell any to myself and the listeners, I you know I think that would be very beneficial.

Glenn Benest 32:38
In my workshop previously, we had developed another screenplay that he wrote called it ended up being called Teaching Mrs. Tingle, which actually did get produced eventually after Scream. You know, he's a brilliant writer, and he loved horror. Very clever, you know. So part of what I think made Scream so great was that the dialog was very clever, very witty, and then he did the the thing that he did that was so different was that he basically made fun of the horror genre. Right, he deconstructed the horror genre by the characters who you know that were horror fans, and they kept saying, "Well, you know, in all horror films, as soon as you have sex, you get killed, which is really kind of true. That you know, as soon as a couple has sex, you know they're going to die. You know, so he took all those kind of you know little platitudes about horror, and he made fun of them, and at the same time he had a really good story. He had a backstory for the main protagonist about her mother being murdered, and she put the wrong person in jail, and so it had a complexity to it. The same time, he came up with very original scary moments. Very original, like the one where they're in the garage and they try to go through the doggy door, and then the killer comes and then raises the door, and they basically get decapitated up there, I mean that's like I'd never seen anything like that before. That was just totally original. See, that's the kind of suck you want to come up with, you know, horror moments that you go, oh, that was killer, you know, and you'll tell people about it. Those are the kind of things that you you want, but with the only thing that I was a little concerned about with that screenplay was that it verged on comedy at times. You know, and a lot of times when you you don't want to confuse a reader or a studio, whatever. Is this horror or is this comedy? And some people have gotten away with writing horror comedy, like Zombie Land. That was kind of a horror comedy, but it's hard to do that, and it can easily confuse people. Well, am I supposed to be laughing or am I supposed to be scared? You know. So all I I was advising him to stay away from the comedy. Not to say it shouldn't be witty and have funny stuff, but you're never confused about what the tone of this thing is-that it's horror-and it does. And not to say you know really good horror has good moments of of witty dialog that can be funny and humorous, but you're never going to be confused that this is supposed to be funny. It's comedy. I mean, it's horror. So that was the only thing that I kind of was trying to advise Kevin about. You know that you stayed with that tone, but you know what's great about being in a in a writer's workshop, and especially we had a great class at that time. I had I had Melissa Matheson. I'm sorry, Melissa Rosenberg was in that class. She wrote, ended up writing all the Twilight movies. She was the exec. She was a executive producer on Dexter. I mean, she became a major, a major writer, and she's really well known now. I had another student in that class named Dana Barada, who wrote a film called Andre, a true story about this seal that got captured and became like this legend in this town, and she was in that group. So we had a bunch of movies that were produced out of this class. So the better the group is, the better the ideas you're going to get, and that's why it's so great to be in a workshop, is that everybody is throwing out the best ideas they have, and a lot of times you'll go, "Oh wow, what a great idea! I'll I'll use that, you know, and it just makes for better writers, it's just like when in all comedy workshops they work in groups, and everybody throws out funny ideas, and the writer takes what he can, and you just pump up the script that way. Well, it's the same in any workshop.

Glenn Benest 37:38
You have really great writers are going to give you good ideas, and you take them and you say thank you. Well, where would you get those? I you know those great ideas if you weren't in a workshop. You'd be all by yourself and you come up with stuff and you do the best you can. But I want to be around really creative, smart people who give me great ideas, and that's why when I you know as a screenwriter myself, when I was working with a producer who was really good with giving notes, those are the scripts that got made. When I was working with a producer who was like really good with business and he was great in selling stuff and he was had good connections and whatnot, but he didn't know how to give great notes to the writers; those movies never got made. So you really, you know, you're only as good as the feedback you're getting. You're only as good as the feedback you're getting, and you. So I keep, you know, telling writers, and you know, you need great feedback, and it's like the same with athletes; they're only as good as the coaching they're getting. And so, you need a great coach, you need a great team behind you, and you're going to help them, and they're going to help you. So, your script is going to end up becoming at least 25 to 30% better, and that 25% can make the difference between selling something and not selling something.

Dave Bullis 39:12
I agree, Glenn. You know, I've been a part of their own writers' groups. Some notes I think are you know I find very helpful. Some notes I'm kind of puzzled. I'm like, what does what does this mean? You know, and that's sort of you know some of the things that I used to have. Like you know, like for instance, in one screenwriting group, we would write 10 pages of each screenplay, and then that way we would get notes about you know development and stuff like that. And some people, you know, really you know you wrote an outline before they did so, and other people, they just went in there completely blind. They just said, "You know what? I'm just going to find out like the characters, and I'm just going to go in there and write these 10 pages. And it was interesting to see all the different notes you get because some people have you know backgrounds in theater. Some people had backgrounds as as as you know because they're a huge movie buff. And they've seen, you know, you know, 20,000 movies or whatever. You know what I mean? And they they would use that knowledge to sort of okay, this is what this reminds me of. You know, and this is where you could take the story, stuff like that. You know, if you know what I mean.

Glenn Benest 40:20
Sure. I just think it's important that you have somebody really knowledgeable who's leading those groups, because otherwise, like when I was in getting my playwriting degree, we would do these staged readings, and you know, it'd be open to anybody who wanted to come, and they would throw out all this stuff, and you-you could easily leave the reading going. I don't know what to do now, you know. And a writer, because one person says black, and one person says white. One person says I love this, the other person says I hate this. You know, you really need somebody who can lead the group and really identify exactly what is the problem here, and then they you bring they you know we brainstorm with the writers. Okay, we can solve it like this. We can solve it like that because there's always an answer to a problem. So, but it's extremely important to identify exactly what's wrong, and then and then you brainstorm, and you may not like all the suggestions you're getting, but at least you know okay, this is the problem I'm having. So even the ideas that you get are maybe not the right ones, but at least you know exactly what you're supposed to solve, and you should never leave a workshop being confused, never or not knowing exactly what to do next, and that's why I say it's so important. Like when I was a young screenwriter, I would give my scripts to whoever you know, give it to my girlfriend, give it to you know, and and they would give me no, and sometimes it would set me back because they didn't know what they were doing, and they told me some stupid shit that had nothing to do with anything, and you never want that. Like it's very important who you show your scripts to, and who's giving you the feedback, and and that they're knowledgeable, and they they know about screenplays, and they know how to fix screenplays. They're not just somebody who's like either oh that's so wonderful, honey, you know, or they come up with something that has nothing to do with what's really relevant, and they totally confuse you. So, like I said, it's very important who you're getting the feedback from, and you should never be confused. And that's how, when you get the right feedback, every time you do a path on a screenplay, it gets better. And that's the the key, and the evidence that you're on the right track. Okay, this draft is better than that draft, and the next draft was better than that draft. But I used to write drafts, and they would get worse. You know, and that has never happened. Never that you're writing something that gets worse. No, should never get worse. It should always get better and better and better. So all the work you're putting into a screenplay is just elevating that screenplay. And you know, really, you can read all the books in the world. Not to say it's not good to read some books about screenplay, about screenwriting, or you know, take these different classes, but the only way you really learn is by doing it. That's the only way you really learn. You you you start writing screenplays, and the first one's probably not going to be very good, but the second one hopefully will be better, and the third one will be even better than that, and you you're getting really good feedback. Not just somebody who's you know seen a lot of movies and they think they're an expert because analyzing screenplays is a real talent, and even people whose job it is to do it are not always very good at doing it, so it's so valuable when you find somebody who really knows how to help you. You know, go from one great draft to the next great draft to the next great draft, right?

Dave Bullis 44:36
You know, like what I was just saying about getting the notes. You know, that's something too. Is you know sometimes I would come in with a draft. Okay, for instance, you know I wrote this slasher that was kind of like a throwback to Friday the 13th, and you know some people would just give me notes, and some people really enjoyed how I set this up, and then other people would just give me notes that I would say I don't understand. You know what. So I was I, so you know I realized that you know the ones that sort of made it I knew would were I knew as soon as I heard the idea I knew I'd be like okay like a light bulb went off above my head I'm like okay that could actually work

Glenn Benest 45:13
Right right and you will you you know the the when you hear something that's right you will recognize it as right you know you'll go. Oh, of course. Yeah, that's you'll. It just rings true. But like I said, if you're getting a lot of mediocre feedback or stupid feedback or whatever, it can literally set you back, not not help you go forward. And so much of being a writer or any artist is self-confidence, and just like athletes, when athletes lose their self, I don't know if you follow tennis, but Rafa is one of the great tennis players of all time, right? And lately, he's lost his confidence, and he's not winning tournaments anymore. He's not winning majors. He's like number five in the world now, or something. He he used to be number one in the world for many years, but he kind of lost his confidence. So as an athlete, confidence is is everything, and it's the same for artists to be confident about what you're doing. So if you hear the wrong feedback and it makes you start thinking in the wrong direction, and then you get confused, now you're losing your confidence, and you never want that. If you hear the right feedback and you go, oh, of course. And here's how to solve that problem. Now you're feeling confident. I've identified what the problem is, and I have some great ideas on how to fix that problem.

Dave Bullis 46:53
Yeah, you know, when I interviewed Corey Mandell for this podcast, he actually mentioned something along those lines too, because he actually recommended a book about to all screenwriters, and it was a book on psychology because he says you have to have this confidence inside you, and you know he's there's a in the book I think it's a book by I think it's Carol Zwack is her name and inside she she actually talks about the theater of your mind and if you give you know seating so to speak to all these negative thoughts inside your brain, it's like they're getting front row seats on of the stage. But she said, "You you need to take them, put them in the back, and put all your positive, you know, thinking in the in the in the front seats. So that way, you know, it's about having that confidence, about having that you can do that and that positive mental attitude.

Glenn Benest 47:38
Right! No, that makes a lot of sense. And you know, the players like I I relate a lot of things to tennis just because I know a lot about tennis and I watch it. Is what gives a lot of confidence to these players is their team. They all have a team around them. They have a coach. They have a nutritionist. They have you know people that they hit with, they they travel in with teams. You know, and they and they have five or six people that travel with them, and those people give them confidence because they're on totally on their side, and they're doing everything they can to elevate that player to excellence. And it's the same for an artist. You need a team of people around you who are going to be there just for you. They're not there because they're jealous. They're not there because they want to knock you down. They're there to make you great, and they're saying the right things to get you to that next level. So that's why it's important to have that team, that team around you. And and you know when I mean I have many workshops, and every once in a while I get a group that's just unusually talented and great. And as a team, we can do so great on people's screenplays because we're just giving the best ideas, and we're there to help them, just like they're there to help us. So you know that can make all the difference when you're working on a screenplay. You have all these bright, brilliant people who know film, and they're there just to make your screenplay better, and that's your team, and that gives you confidence, and that gives you you know a leg up.

Dave Bullis 49:28
You know that's very that's very true, Glenn. You know I I notice you know by the clock we're we're almost running out of time because I know you you know I don't want to keep to eat up too much of of your time, but um one of the questions that came in um which is that I'm just going to ask because a couple of the it actually came in at a couple different iterations. It's actually do with what we were just talking about about building the team and and you know writing and ideas and stuff. And basically is you know what advice do you have for a screenwriter that's writing their first draft?

Glenn Benest 50:06
Don't be critical towards yourself. In other words, don't number one, don't expect that it's going to come out good, okay? Because most first drafts are not good. Just let it pour out. Don't judge it. Just you know, hopefully you got a decent outline. You know where you're going. You have a beginning, middle, and end, and then just let it pour out. Don't worry about how long it is, how short it is. If you're you know you're having trouble, your your dialog isn't so great. It doesn't matter. Just let it pour out, and then once you've written it and you've got it all there, now you've got something to work with. And then in the second draft you can solve certain problems. In the third draft you'll solve other problems. In the fourth draft you'll solve other problems. You can't solve everything at once. You only solve a few things, and all you want to do is just let it pour out of you, and don't, you know. People, the reason people get blocked is they expect that it's going to come out wonderfully the first time in it. That's ridiculous. I mean, if you were going to learn to play the piano, classical piano, you wouldn't think that you would just sit down and play Mozart. I mean, you just would never think such a thing. And yet, for some reason, people think if I'm writing my first screenplay, it's just going to come out. It's going to be great. No, it's not going to be great. It's going to be very rough, and it's going to need work. But that's okay. You just want to get it down for now. So my biggest advice is to don't judge yourself. Don't don't think it's going to be wonderful. It you're you're just trying to get it out. Let it pour out of you, and you're going to discover things. And then once you have a first draft, that's when you start looking for feedback, and really good feedback, like we talked about, where somebody who's really knowledgeable can help you identify exactly what's working and exactly what's not working, and then you solve the problems of what's not working.

Dave Bullis 52:22
That's a you know great advice. You know, like I said, you know the there's a couple different versions of of that was like the number one question that came in. So I wanted to make sure to ask that. So you know, Glenn, you know, in closing, do you have any any sort of final thoughts that you wanted to sort of add to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Glenn Benest 52:39
Well, you know, for anybody that's listening, please feel free to call me at my home. You're perfectly. I like to talk to new writers. I like to help writers. You know, I've been a professional screenwriter my entire career. I'm still at it, but I've also been an instructor, and I have these workshops. I've had six films produced from my groups, and I like to work with young writers. I like to mentor people. So, feel free to call me at my number is 818-396-5724. That's 818-396-5724, or you can email me at [email protected], and I'll be happy to talk to you. And you can tell me what your if you have any questions or any way I can help you. And you know I get I get a great deal of satisfaction from that, especially like something like Scream. You know, if I can help somebody get Scream produced, it gives me a tremendous amount of satisfaction. So I like to work with with young writers, you know, and I like to be a part of the process. And every once in a while, we're lucky enough to get a film produced.

Dave Bullis 54:05
Well, you know that's amazing, Glenn. That you know you allow people to call you, and and and you know everyone. I want you to check out Glenn's website at glennbenest.com. I will link that in the show notes, along with Glenn's latest novel, Inc. I'm going to link to that in the show notes as well. But Glenn, I want to say you know thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for talking to us for you know 50 minutes. I really appreciate it, and you know honestly, Glenn, I I really look forward to just seeing you know everything you come up with, and I might actually email you too. I have some screenwriting questions. Okay, great.

Glenn Benest 54:36
All right, Dave. Well, it's been a lot of fun talking to you.

Dave Bullis 54:38
You too, Glenn. I will talk to you soon, my friend. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

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BPS 485: The Screenwriting Blueprint Every First-Time Writer Needs with David Hohl

August 20, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every screenwriter starts with the same confidence: a great idea and the belief that inspiration alone will carry the story to the finish line. But somewhere between page twenty and page fifty, reality sets in. Characters lose direction. The plot wanders. Momentum disappears. It’s a struggle nearly every writer experiences, and according to David Hohl, it usually has nothing to do with talent. More often than not, it’s the result of skipping the most important part of the writing process: preparation.

David has spent years helping screenwriters develop stronger stories as a screenplay consultant while also teaching writers through Horror Movie School, an online platform dedicated to the craft of writing and producing horror films. Throughout the conversation, one lesson rises above everything else—great screenplays are built long before the first page is written. New writers often rush directly into dialogue and scenes because they’re excited by an idea, but David argues that enthusiasm without structure almost always leads to frustration. His own first screenplay, written when he was just seventeen years old, contained interesting scenes and promising dialogue, yet lacked a cohesive story because he hadn’t learned the importance of outlining. That early failure became one of the most valuable lessons of his career.

Instead of viewing outlines as creative limitations, David sees them as creative freedom. He compares story structure to the blueprint of a house. Before painters choose colors or designers select furniture, architects must first create a solid framework. Screenwriting works the same way. Once writers understand the major turning points, sequence goals, and dramatic progression of the story, they gain the confidence to be more inventive within those boundaries. Structure isn’t the enemy of creativity—it’s what allows creativity to flourish without losing focus.

One of the most interesting discussions centers on David’s use of the classic eight-sequence method. Rather than treating a screenplay as one intimidating 110-page document, he encourages writers to divide the story into manageable sections, each with its own dramatic objective. Breaking the script into smaller creative goals makes the writing process feel far less overwhelming while also giving writers a clear roadmap from beginning to end. It’s a system that has allowed David to meet incredibly demanding professional deadlines, including writing feature-length screenplays in just a few weeks because the heavy creative work had already been solved during the outlining stage.

The conversation also shifts into one of the most practical subjects for independent filmmakers: choosing the right genre. Having worked extensively with low-budget productions, David noticed a consistent pattern. Horror films found distribution while many dramas and comedies quietly disappeared. Unlike other genres that often depend on recognizable stars, horror audiences actively seek fresh concepts and memorable scares. A strong premise can become the selling point, allowing independent filmmakers to compete without celebrity casting or massive budgets. For aspiring filmmakers hoping to produce their first feature, David believes horror remains one of the smartest and most accessible paths into the industry.

That practical mindset carries over into filmmaking itself. Reflecting on directing his feature In Search of Lovecraft, David shares the realities of making a film with limited resources. Shooting a feature in just ten days meant constantly sacrificing ambitious camera moves in favor of simply completing the schedule. Time—not creativity—became the biggest obstacle. His experience reinforced a lesson every filmmaker eventually learns: larger budgets don’t simply buy better equipment; they buy time. More time for rehearsals. More time for lighting. More time for performance. And perhaps most importantly, more time to capture the shots you originally imagined.

Networking also emerges as one of David’s strongest recommendations. Rather than waiting for opportunities to appear, he encourages writers to actively build relationships by joining writers’ groups, attending seminars, studying produced screenplays, and reaching out to filmmakers whose work they genuinely admire. Small creative communities often become unexpected launching pads because today’s beginner may become tomorrow’s studio writer or producer. Careers in filmmaking are rarely built alone—they grow through years of authentic relationships and mutual support.

Perhaps the most encouraging aspect of David’s philosophy is that he rejects the idea that expensive film schools are the only gateway into the industry. While he respects traditional education, he believes today’s writers have unprecedented access to books, seminars, online courses, podcasts, screenplay libraries, and professional communities. Anyone willing to consistently study, practice, and improve has more educational resources available than previous generations could have imagined. The challenge is no longer finding information—it’s developing the discipline to apply it.

Ultimately, David Hohl reminds filmmakers that writing isn’t about waiting for inspiration to magically appear. It’s about preparation, persistence, and continually refining your craft. Great screenplays rarely happen by accident. They are carefully constructed, thoughtfully rewritten, and strengthened one decision at a time. The writers who succeed aren’t necessarily the most naturally gifted—they’re often the ones willing to put in the work long before anyone ever reads page one.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:46
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:56
With me today is David Hohl. David is a screenwriting teacher and currently runs horror movie school, an online film school that focuses on the craft of making horror films. He is also a producer and director, which will we will get in today in the show. Dave, how are you?

David Hohl 2:12
Great, thanks. I'm excited to be on your show. Thanks, Dave.

Dave Bullis 2:16
Oh, thank you very much for coming on. This is actually the second time, because the first time the recording got a little messed up, but hopefully I was a charm, right?

David Hohl 2:25
Yeah, I hope so. Hope second time, not third time, but it was fun. So I look forward to it again.

Dave Bullis 2:32
Great. So you actually already know the question, so if it sounds a little rehearsed, it's like, well, David, it's like almost like David.

David Hohl 2:38
Well, I was just thinking about that today, and I was thinking all my answers will probably be completely different, because they're just off the top of my head.

Dave Bullis 2:46
Good. So, then it's really like a total new, totally new.

David Hohl 2:48
That's right. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 2:50
So, Dave, the first question I have for you is, you know, what advice do you have to people that are writing their first screenplay?

David Hohl 2:59
Okay, for people that are just fresh into it and don't have really any education in your, I'm assuming you were talking about that, right?

Dave Bullis 3:07
Yes.

David Hohl 3:08
Well, I mean, there's a few people that might go on the route of going to film school and UCLA or USC or whatever it be, but you know that's not an option for a lot of people, because it's rather expensive, and personally I think there's, there's better ways to get in, and the first thing I would just recommend is get as many good books as you can, with the internet nowadays, you can see, you know, the reviews on the books, and see you know how well screenwriters like them, so just try to find some good books, study them for a few months, read as many screenplays as you can, watch as many movies as you can, especially ones in the genre that you're interested in, and and then start writing, but I would recommend, you know, learning how to do an outline and doing that properly first, and then, and then going in, doing your, your first draft, and then going and meeting people that are screenwriters or screenplay consultants or writers groups, like I know you had a writer's group. It's very helpful, and you can run your material by them. And then after you get it to a pretty good level, then you can send it to a consultant to give you final critiques before you send it out into the market. You really don't want to send it out early, because if you send it to producers before it's at its best, then you know if there's problems in it, they're going to remember that, and then if you submit something again in the future, they might not be interested in reading it, even if it's better at that point.

Dave Bullis 4:54
Yeah, you know, I also heard, Dave, that like certain screenwriting competitions, they actually. Will take the name of the script and the writer, and then they actually have that in their catalog, so if you do submit it again, they actually will base it upon that. So I know the Nicole Fellowship actually mentioned that in a Q and A, and they were like, make sure this is as good as it possibly can, because if you submit it again, you know we have our database. And thanks for mentioning my screenwriters group, Dave, which is the first draft screenwriters group. You know, we've been meeting for over a year now. We finally have a name.

David Hohl 5:29
Okay, great.

Dave Bullis 5:31
And you were gracious enough to come in as a guest, and which was very good.

David Hohl 5:36
Yeah, well, I really recommend that. I mean, putting a group together, you know, gives you people to talk to that have a like mind, you can share, you know, new things, like maybe you know the people in the group don't have a whole lot of money, so you know one person can go to one seminar, another person could go to another seminar, and then sort of share the information amongst each other,

Dave Bullis 5:58
Yeah, that's a really good idea, and so, Dave, I wanted to follow up with that question. I wanted to ask, what challenges did you encounter when you were writing your first screenplay?

David Hohl 6:10
Yeah, my very first screenplay, I did, I believe I was 17 years old, I was in high school still, and I thought, I want to do that movie stuff, let me, I can write a screenplay just like anyone else. So I just wrote a screenplay, and you know, I had my ideas of what characters I wanted and the basic ideas, and I had some scenes in my mind, and so I went about and I wrote this script and had some cool scenes, and I think it probably had some good dialog for a 17 year old. I'd probably not like it now, but when I went back and read the entire screenplay, it really didn't have any focus, and that's because I just wrote off the top of my head I didn't realize that there was this whole art to screenwriting and having structure and, and knowing how to do outlines and things, so I would suggest to others to really learn outlining, and that was my biggest challenge, is is trying to write without doing those things that I just recommended. I read like one or two books, but nowadays there's a lot, a lot more education out there. There's more seminars. A friend of mine, David Freeman, has a great seminar called Beyond Structure. That's one. Michael Hague has seminars, Chris Soph, you know, there's a lot of great seminars out there, and then there's specialty seminars for different genres. I have a class on horror, so I would just recommend getting the education and learning how to do outlining before you go into it, because that was my biggest mistake when I first started,

Dave Bullis 7:54
And that's something I found out too, is that outlining is so key, because you have to know where your story begins, and where it ends, and you need to see that in a whole, you know, whether it's, you know, in just one sheet, so you could see, like, you know, just in one glance, or whether it's like, you know, writing it over the span of cold pages to add in, like, a beat sheet, it's just so important to know, you know, what's going on, the scenes, everything, like, and what's happening in those scenes, and then you can really start to develop that move from there.

David Hohl 8:24
Yeah, and and when I did my first screenplay, I did know what my beginning and end was, but I didn't know all of the signposts along the way. I just sort of tried to fill it in as I was writing, and just because you, some people think, just because you have an outline, it means you're being rigid and you're being formulaic, and that you're not being creative, but that's really not true. The structure just gives you the spine of the story, or if you look at it as building a house, it's a blueprint of the structure of the house, but that doesn't mean you can't be creative and go in and paint the walls however you want them, or put the trim on the on the ceiling or the doorknobs a certain way, so that once the structure is there, it gives you freedom to go in and do all the real creative stuff, in my opinion.

Dave Bullis 9:18
Oh yeah, and I agree on that too. And speaking of resources, there's other places online now where you can literally pull off screenplays, and you can pull off even, like, you know, things like about sequences, and about, you know, the, you were speaking about the signposts on the road, were you speaking about, like, the nine main beats, like, you know, like an inciting incident, the first, yeah,

David Hohl 9:40
Generally those things, yeah, they're different according to who you talk to in terms of terminology, but the basic - that's what I meant by signposts, the basic plot points, you know, the major plot points, and then the lesser plot points along the way.

Dave Bullis 9:56
So Dave, what challenges do you encounter when you're writing a screenplay now?

David Hohl 10:04
Now, well, I joked last time about it being my daughter, because she's five and she's always tugging my leg, gasping for something, it's actually true, so I'd say the challenge is just working in a schedule with everything else that's going on in life, and I know that's something that a lot of people have problems with. There's a lot of people interested in screenwriting that work full time, and they have kids, or they have spouses, or they have other obligations, so just being able to schedule things and having a time where you can really get in and, and write, that's a challenge, and you just have to be persistent. You have to just write it out, you know that it's this time, and you know you could be creative. Some people say there's there is no time. I have no time. Well, that just means that your priority is low. If your priority is not to do it, then you won't do it. But if it is a priority, then you will do it, even if it means waking up an hour early and you know, getting to work an hour early and getting your laptop out before and in writing a few scenes or or something, you can, you can do it,

Dave Bullis 11:26
Yeah, and you've heard of a lot of writers doing that too, where they've either gotten to work early or they stay late just to knock out something, and you know that with that extra hour or so,

David Hohl 11:35
Right, right,

Dave Bullis 11:37
So and Dave, your approach to writing is, you know, I know you break it down into eights. Do you want to talk more about your, your real method?

David Hohl 11:47
Well, yeah, I won't get going to a lot of detail, because that might take some time, and people can learn that on my website too. But it's basically, it's based on the sequence method from USC, where they break it down into sequences, and the reason I like that is because they're bite-sized pieces that you really, you could understand what each section is attempting to do within the story, and then also gives you a goal, a really clear goal that you know you can make, and then once you make that goal, you know of the 12 pages or so, or 15, depending on what you're shooting for, once you make it, then you just go on to the next, and then you have another clear goal, so I think it is easier to get through the whole script doing that, and my real outlining technique is basically taking that sequence method and putting it onto an outline template where someone can just easily, you know, put in the major plot points of each of the reels, and then build it, and you can look at it from an overview. It's like a bird's eye view, and see this entire structure of the screenplay, and you could play around and move, move the scenes around, and things until you know it's really clear, and then you can write a first draft really quickly, and that's that's my goal, and I found it very successful when I've been hired to do something with a tight deadline, you know, I've had to write features in three weeks, which is crazy, I think, and you know, but if I have the outline, then three weeks is actually, actually a long time. You can do it quicker than that. So, usually, if I had three weeks, I would spend, you know, a whole week just doing the outline, and then I would zip through the first draft, you know, in the, in the two weeks or less. So that's what, nutshell of the out the real outlining method,

Dave Bullis 14:05
You know, I found that that also helps a lot with outlining, just sequencing it out and breaking it into eights, you know, so you know you have two sequences in act one, four and act two, and then two and act three, and it really helps to sort of just see this and break out into manipul pieces, it really helps you. Now you can say, "Hey, this isn't as much as just if I said, you know, okay, we're gonna act one to act two to, and then act two, deck three, and then you know to a conclusion.

David Hohl 14:31
Yeah, and that's why, you know, in the early days of screenwriting, when people just had Sid Field's book, they always would say the same thing, that as soon as it got into act two they would get lost and bogged down and and it would take forever because there weren't really those clear sign posts along the way so it got difficult and the whole idea of reels you know come from. Them, when in the theaters, they actually used reels of film, and they were broken down into it wasn't just one giant reel of the entire movie, they'd have to switch the reels, and so they would be in, in, you know, I think they were 11 minute, 12 minute reels, and then they would switch it over, so that's the the idea of a reel, and if you take those eight of them, they pretty much come to the exact perfect length of a feature. So,

Dave Bullis 15:31
So, and we're talking about all the resources online, and, and you know, you can learn online pretty much anything now, any subject you want. What was some of the reasons why you started her, excuse me, the horror movie school.

David Hohl 15:44
Yeah, it's horrormovieschool.com And the reason I started it is because when I worked in Hollywood after school, the first job I had was in post production, and I had that for several years, and I saw all of these films come in, you know, where we would do the post production, we would do music, we would do sound effects editing, and, and all that, and I got to see, you know, the films worked on, and they were mainly independent films, but, you know, they were anywhere from a few $100,000 to, you know, maybe 10 or $15 million as independent films, and I got to see them being worked on, and then I got to see what happened to them, you know, in a year or two down the line, and I'd always find that the horror movies ended up on the shelves of Blockbuster, or or sold, distributed, and I'd see them, and I'd rent them, even, and I say, "Hey, this is one of the ones I worked on, but the other ones, the comedies, the dramas, they disappeared, and I figured they're just shown at Christmas time at the director's house, you know, for their family or something, and yeah, yeah, so they, you know, they spent $500,000 of their life savings, and and now it's just something that their friends watch, and you know that's sad, because maybe it was a really good story, but the thing that I learned was that genre is something that really sells, and it's something that you don't need star power for. So, that comedy, you know, if it had a star in it, it might have been very successful, because people would have wanted to see it, but if there's no one in it, they recognize no one's going to want to rent it, but horror, they're going to want to rent it simply because it's horror, and because it's a cool idea. It's a star unto itself, that's what I say. And so I figured that I can help people learn this genre. It's something I've been working on for many, many years, and it's something that can help people break in. There's a lot of producers out there looking for low budget horror things to make, and you know, once you break in, then you can do what you want. You know, you could be Sam Raimi, and you know, do Evil Dead, and then decide you want to go do a western or Spider Man or something, but if you love horror, you know you can stay in it too. It'll just give you a way in.

Dave Bullis 18:25
Yeah, because you look at movies like Paranormal Activity, and you look at other, you know, other movies like The Blair Witch Project. They were basically like a no to, well, they would be classified as like a no to micro budget films, and then they had minimal locations, but they really focus on the horror, and they did, I mean, both those movies did extremely well, and I know they're outliers, obviously, because you know, because they both made a couple 100 million dollars, but yeah, that is a good point, though, because if you know, if we had such a $5,000 to make a movie, which is basically considered no budget, if we were, we could actually, you know, get a one location, whether it's someone's house or what have you, and then you know we could actually film the movie there

David Hohl 19:09
Exactly, and, and you know, you can do that with a drama too, but the difference is you have a lot better chance of selling the horror film or getting someone to, you know, rent to watch it, whatever. Just because it's the genre, you have a fan base built in already. Yeah, I mean, I think paranormal activity, the last time I checked, which maybe something's changed by now, but I think it was the most successful film of all time in terms of return on investment, the amount of money put in, according to how much they made, it was just insane, how much they made.

Dave Bullis 19:49
Yeah, it really is. And you know, a little side fact, one person I had on the on my previous show. Actually, used to work with Oren Patelli, and they worked together at Sony, and they actually were both coders, and all Oren one day just quit because he said, "Guys, I sold a movie to Sony, or whoever, and he said, "I, that's gonna do now, and they thought he was kidding around, he was serious, and now that guy's into filmmaking now, and his name is Scott McMahon, and he just had him, Oren, on his podcast to discuss, to discuss how he did it. So it's actually, if you want to look up Scott's podcast, I'm gonna put the link on the show notes, but it's really, really interesting. How he talks to Orrin about how the movie got discovered, and how Oren was able to get, get it to where it was.

David Hohl 20:48
Oh, that's great. I'd love to hear that. What's the website address again?

Dave Bullis 20:53
It's.. I forget what he's.. I think it's called Filmmaker Fridays, is his podcast name, but the guy who runs it's called Scott McMahon, I'm going to put the URL in the show notes.

David Hohl 21:03
Okay, fantastic.

Dave Bullis 21:05
And you know, just to just continue with the online learning, you know, Dave, do you ever think that, like, online learning, or you know, distance learning is sometimes called? Do you ever think they'll replace standard universities?

David Hohl 21:18
It's never going to replace it, because the universities are too large, and they have the reputation, and there's always going to be someone that has a lot of money and a lot of time and wants to have that, you know, just the name saying they went, went there. I don't think it's necessary to go there. There's lots of people that have been successful that haven't gone to the major universities, and there's a lot more people that now have access to education and, and learning, like I was saying before, there's a whole lot of people out there that, you know, they have to support themselves, they have to have a job, they have to, you know, help their families, or what have you, and online learning gives them the opportunity to, you know, when your kids go to sleep, you pull out the computer at any time of the night, and you can get that education, you can do the practices, you can learn from seminars, audio, video, what have you, you know, whenever, even at lunchtime at your job, so there's no excuses for not doing it, because there's so many opportunities out there, and it just online learning just is great. I mean, I use it all the time still. I, whenever there's a little class or seminar that I want to learn, I go online and I just do it when it's convenient,

Dave Bullis 22:41
That's great, because you know, and even like there's apps now for the phone, you know, whether of Android or iOS, there you know, I've oftentimes, so I'm taking some online classes right now, and I can just pop it open, and that can go through a lesson right then and there,

David Hohl 22:55
Yeah, that's that's great technology makes it easier, and not only classes, but just like things you're doing, you're doing this podcast. It's a great educational tool for people to learn things, and you know, a lot of times you'll learn things that you'd never even learn in a film school, in places like this.

Dave Bullis 23:16
And it's also a good place to network, too, because I know you're people with different experiences, and you may not get exposed to them, you know, without that.

David Hohl 23:26
Yeah.

Dave Bullis 23:26
And then, so, Dave, just to move to production, now you wrote and directed a feature-length film called In Search of Lovecraft. Yeah, what challenges did you encounter when you made that movie?

David Hohl 23:41
Well, primarily, I am a screenplay consultant, that's what I've been doing for over, I think it's over 15 years now, and that's what I'm known for mainly, but I've done production also. When I very first started, you know, when I was a teenager, I was doing national commercials of Prodigy and Macy's and Dodge and things like that, I would work in production, so I've always worked in production, and when I was studying screenwriting, when I moved to Los Angeles, I also did a whole ton of low-budget films with students, and some really low-budget horror movies features, I worked in production, but I'm always the script person, the script analyst, but I, I was talking with my wife, and we were just saying, you know, do you think you can make a feature, and I said, sure, and it was sort of a bet, you know, before your birthday, which is in three months, can you get a feature put together, and so just for the experience, I did it, I wrote it really quickly, and started casting it, and got all the locations, and got some really cool locations. Actually, we are the only production, at least at the time, which was, I think, three years ago, to ever shoot at Coit Tower in San Fran. Cisco, because normally they wouldn't give you permission to go in and shoot, but we sort of talked our way in with the manager, and, and got in to shoot there, that, and that, so that was cool, and we have a lot of high-profile San Francisco locations that we shot in, the biggest obstacle was time, we'd run out of time because we had almost no budget. We shot the whole thing in 10 days, and so all of these things I had on my shot lists, you know, I would say, okay, we're on this shot now. Now get the dolly ready. I want to do a dolly shot here, and at the same time, you know, boom, the arm up, so we can get a shot. So dolly shot with a boom, and they'd say, "No, I don't think so. We don't have the time for that. We're going to put it on sticks and shoot it, you know, straight. And a lot of that happened, so that was disappointing, and that taught me just that the next one I do, I just need a bigger budget, so we have more time, more time,

Dave Bullis 26:12
Yeah, and that's something I've learned too, is I would much prefer to have more days,

David Hohl 26:17
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 26:17
But and make them less hours, because I mean, you hear sometimes like 14, 16, 18 hour days.

David Hohl 26:23
Oh, yeah,

Dave Bullis 26:24
That just grinds out your crew more than anything.

David Hohl 26:27
Yeah, we were doing for 10 days, we did 18 to 20 hour days every day, and yeah, the only thing that kept the crew from mutiny was having really, really good food, so I would, I would definitely don't skimp on food if you're making your crew work a lot.

Dave Bullis 26:49
Yeah, we was actually shooting a zombie trailer with a friend of mine and business partner, Chris Witt, and we actually had this catering company actually donated food to us, so like, all the lunches were like this amazing food each day, and because we, I'm glad they worked out that way, because it was raining every single day, we were shooting, just like putting the cast out there was so brutal, it was cold, and you know that thing, that is one thing I really made up for, it was the fact that we had awesome food.

David Hohl 27:22
Yeah, that always helps. And I need to talk to you sometime on how you got it donated. It's pretty good,

Dave Bullis 27:30
You know. It's different producers. I always say different producers have different skill sets, and sometimes it's just, you know, connections, or it's just me, like you were able to, you know, talk your way into shooting in certain locations, and you know, like, I forget who told me this, but someone said that a producer with a large rolodex is actually like your best, is like your best asset, because, yeah, you can just call around, and that's

David Hohl 27:53
True, that's true.

Dave Bullis 27:55
So, if you were to make another film, Dave, do you think you would go the crowdfunding route?

David Hohl 28:01
Say that again, which route,

Dave Bullis 28:03
The crowdfunding route. Do you think you may use Kickstarter?

David Hohl 28:07
I, I might.. I think you know, I know several people that had success in it. One of my friends did a short film successfully and got funding through that. Another friend did a documentary. Any budget that I want to work with now, I think it'd be probably too much to raise through that. I know there's been some success. I know there's a, there's this game maker. I'm a big Lovecraft fan, being horror or a person, and there's this game designer named Sandy Petersen, who designed the Call of Cthulhu Horror Lovecraft game, and he did a Kickstarter to raise $90,000 to make a new Lovecraft game, and he ended up raising, I think, 1.4 million instead of 90,000 so you can definitely succeed if you do it right, and you have some kind of a name there, but I think I'd be more likely to go private investor route and just do, you know, business plan and get a lawyer and go to private funding.

Dave Bullis 29:23
Yeah, and you know, I've often talked about this. Maybe you could do a mix of the two, because I've talked about this to other, to other filmmakers, and just to say, like, you know, maybe not crowdfund your entire budget, maybe crowdfund, maybe you know 20 30% could use that as, like, a almost like a proof of concept, but, but you know, sometimes I, you know, gotten to discussions before about if you need to crowdfund, like, $5,000 is it really, quote unquote, worth it? And some people say yes, some people say no but you know, I see what you mean about, you know, you having a name attached, because you have to have, you know, the perks have to be right, the project has to be, you know, low has low quality, you know, everything has to, you know, there's a whole checklist, and you know, I did a podcast with John Trigonis, a couple weeks ago, I'm gonna have him on again, and we always get into that, about, you know, sometimes filmmakers just, they set this unrealistic goal, and there's absolutely no way they're ever gonna make it, like, you know, like, you know, $500,000 to share a simple zombie movie, and you're like, what, what's costing $500,000

David Hohl 30:42
Right, or Or how do we.. you know, who are you? Why are we going to give it to you?

Dave Bullis 30:46
Yes, exactly.

David Hohl 30:47
You know when we can, you know, do it ourselves or give it to some person we've heard of. And if I.. I'm not exactly sure, but I've been told that in crowdfunder, you know, if you know, correct me, that you can ask to raise a certain amount, and if you don't hit that goal, you still receive the funds, while in Kickstarter, you don't receive any funds unless you meet the full goal.

Dave Bullis 31:17
Yes, Indiegogo, or Indiegogo, I keep calling it Indie Agogo, but in Indiegogo you can have it set either way, whether it's, you know, whether you meet the goal and get nothing, or you meet the goal, and even if you don't meet the goal, you still get something. So you can have it set either way. Kickstarter, it's all or nothing, so yeah, $1 short, you get absolutely nothing.

David Hohl 31:38
And I, in a way, I think I like that better, because then that way the people that are getting involved in giving you money know that the project is gonna, you know, go forward, as opposed to, you know, you get partial funding, and then it might not ever be finished,

Dave Bullis 31:54
And you know, there's been discussions about that, you know, online too, about, you know, what is actually better, and really, it does come down to the project, you know. I was talking to Trigonous about this, and he.. I didn't even know about this, but there was a whole zombie-like, you know, crowd in within Indiegogo, and basically he was touring out the idea of just having your hashtag GoGo Zombie, because there's so many zombie projects on there, and they all get funded too, which is, which speaks a lot about the horror genre, and the zombie, the zombie subgenre. And so, Dave, just to continue with the whole conversation about your projects, what are you working on next?

David Hohl 32:36
Well, I'm working a lot on, you know, student things. I have the horror movie school.com and then I have my consulting business, so I do screenplay consulting for a lot of writers. I just talked to someone today, actually, about a really, really big project, which I'm not going to say until I get it, you know, signed, but that's something I'm working on, and then I have my own spec projects that that I'm working on, I think I mentioned to you this before, I'm actually getting away from horror on this project and doing a kids Disney type, Disney type film because I have some a good friend that works in directing for Disney, and so that's an open opportunity, and also I'd like to have something that my daughter can watch, and I can tell her I did it. I can't show her any in my horror stuff, but I mean, I, my true love is still horror, but I like to be diverse. I mean, I watch romantic comedies too, it's not that I'm stuck only in horror; it's just happens to be my specialty.

Dave Bullis 33:46
And speaking of Horror Disney, we were just talking about Escape from Tomorrow.

David Hohl 33:50
Yeah, you turned me on to that last time, and I'd never heard of it, actually. So I looked it up, and I read a little bit about it, and I guess the guy got an inheritance from his grandparents, and he spent 600 650,000 on making this film, and he shot it guerrilla style, and in Disneyland, or Disney World, I guess it is in Florida, and it's in black and white, and I watched a few scenes, and it has a really interesting look to it, and it's just amazing that he pulled this off, shooting the whole thing guerrilla style, and not being caught. I mean, I read that he and the crew would go and take these rides, you know, 15 times in a row to get the scene right, and nobody noticed anything that was going on. He used his, their phones had their scripts on them, like you were telling me, and and they were using cameras that looked consumer, you know, that other people in the park might have. So it's very interesting. I'm gonna, I'm gonna watch the whole thing, but. I wouldn't recommend doing that. I mean, if that guy came to me and said, 'Should I do this? I would tell him no, and I guess in this case I would have been wrong, because it was successful and went to the festival, but you know that's one out of a million. I know another person, a friend of mine, that shot something similar movie where I told him he shouldn't be doing it because he didn't have the rights, and he said that's no big deal. And then as soon as he finished it, the first advertisement he put out, first marketing thing he put out there, he got calls from lawyers saying we're going to sue you out of existence if you show this or market it at all. So I was really surprised that Disney didn't go after this guy, but luckily they didn't. So you can see it looks very interesting.

Dave Bullis 35:57
Yeah, I definitely would check it out. Sorry, I definitely recommend it to filmmakers who just interesting, how he actually did it, and it obviously just feel what he did with the, with you know, although he had a larger budget than most people had, it's just how he went about doing it. But yeah, like you said, Dave, I would, if somebody asked me about this, I would say no way, do not even attempt to do something like that.

David Hohl 36:19
Yeah, and the funny thing is, he knew that there could be major trouble, because I read that he, as soon as he had everything in the can, he went to, I guess, South Korea, and had all the visual effects done in South Korea, because he didn't want any of the post-production houses to talk about it, and it to get to Disney, so yeah,

Dave Bullis 36:43
Yeah, that, that's a good way to do it, I guess. I mean, I don't know how much that extra would have cost them, but yeah, it's really interesting story, you know. It's only some of these films, you know, like Bowfinger, there was a that was based off a real movie where apparently the, you know, like actors would just walk up this actress on the beach and just say lines to where, and she go, what? And then, you know, they use that as the actual movie. I don't know the name of it, but that's what Bow Finger was based off of.

David Hohl 37:10
Okay,

Dave Bullis 37:12
So yeah, it's, you know, it's crazy silly stories.

David Hohl 37:15
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 37:16
So, so Dave, you know, just to wrap everything up, is there anything else you'd like to share or discuss that we haven't talked about yet?

David Hohl 37:24
Oh, just a couple of tips, maybe we talked a little bit about this last time. I would just suggest, you know, if you know what genre you have a love for, you know, watch as many films as you can, and get the scripts, because you can't just get it from watching the movies, you have to get the screenplay. So, pick up copies of the scripts, the spec scripts, preferably before they're turned into shooting scripts, and read them, and read them, read a lot of them, and also, whenever you see a movie, rent a movie, or whatever, write down the names of people that did them, you know, write down the names of the writers, the producers, the directors, or cinematographers, even, and then, you know, you could probably look them up on IMDb Pro, you know, IMDB Pro is not that expensive. I think it's 15 bucks a month or something, and and it gives you contact information, and just, you know, write them, and you know, tell them you're a fan, and you really like this. How did they do the scene, or whatever? And, and I find that when you're honest and you're not just making it up if it's true, and you're also, you know, telling them that you like what they've done, they're more likely than not to respond to you, and you know most of them are nice people, and you know if you could build up a conversation and then let that last for several months, then at some point they might consider reading something you've done, you know. So just constantly build those relationships any way you can, and a writer's group is another good way, you know, because you might be in a writer's group with a bunch of guys that are brand new, and then in two years one of them just made it big, and you know he's writing sci-fi action movies, and in a studio told him about a comedy, and he knew that you did comedies, and so he tells you about it, you know, so there's always those possibilities to just keep up the networking,

Dave Bullis 39:42
You know, Michael K. Sutter, who's on the first episode, actually, you know, he's been able to pitch to some absolutely amazing people, and he actually wrote a script about Mickey Mouse and now he got to pitch that to Disney, and now I don't know if they sign it or not, but I know he's got a lot of meetings from that, at least just from that script alone. Great, and you have two books that you're working on, correct, Dave?

David Hohl 40:20
Yeah, one is 101 screenplay tips, blasting down the gatekeepers doors. It's a, it's a book with 101 different things that I've come across over the years. They're little tips that are expanded out and explained in this book, and they're just little things that you can read at your leisure, you know. Whenever you have a free few minutes, you can pick it up and read one of the tips, and I think they all will help your writing overall. Your screenwriting, you can get a condensed version of it, sort of a cheat sheet of it that just lists them with basic information on my website, which is davidhohl.com D A V I D H O H L.com and subscribe to the newsletter, and then that will get sent to you, and that's free, and that'll just give you all the basics, and then the book coming out will be more expansive, and then I have a horror writing 13 steps to terror, which is a book on the horror genre, and you know, I looked out there and I didn't really see anything good for horror screenwriting. There's a ton of general screenwriting books and some good comedy books, like Steve Kaplan's book, get that if you have any interest in comedy, but there's nothing really good out there that I've seen for horror, so I'm bringing that one out. Hopefully people will learn some good pointers in there,

Dave Bullis 41:56
And I would also recommend Steve Kaplan's book. I think Steve is awesome. I got to talk to him a couple times. I actually hope to have him on the podcast in the near future.

David Hohl 42:05
Yeah, he's a great guy, very funny, very interesting, a lot of good stuff in his, his books. And even if you're doing horror or any other genre, you know there's always a place for comedy within within what you're doing, as well as just the genre itself. So you should know comedy elements like anything else.

Dave Bullis 42:24
I agree, and you know, I've actually taken Dave's course, by the way, the Horror Movie School, and I highly recommend it for anybody out there wondering. You know, after I got done the class, I did have a couple people ask me about it, and I always, I did tell them, hey, is it definitely a worthwhile course?

David Hohl 42:41
Oh, good, thank you.

Dave Bullis 42:42
So, the amount of materials and everything you get, and so definitely to check that out, especially if you're interested in horror screenwriting. And so, those two books you're working on, are there's going to be Kindle or Nook only? Are they also going to be in physical copies?

David Hohl 42:58
The 101 screenplay will probably only be Kindle, and I'm hoping the horror one will be with a bigger publisher and be hard copy as well.

Dave Bullis 43:10
Okay. Excellent.

David Hohl 43:12
Yeah. So, oh, can I just get my website really quick?

Dave Bullis 43:15
Oh, sure.

David Hohl 43:16
It's horrormovieschool.com so www.horrormovieschool.com and and you could subscribe to a newsletter there, and it'll give you a lot of free stuff, some free papers, a couple of free seminars, audio seminars, and then information about the class if you're interested.

Dave Bullis 43:36
I think you actually beat me to the punch. It was actually the next thing I was going to say.

David Hohl 43:39
Okay, thanks.

Dave Bullis 43:40
No problem. But you know, Dave. Thank you very much for coming on, and again, everyone, check out Dave at Horror Movies school.com and you can follow him on Twitter at Script MD. Dave, was there anything you like to say to end the show?

David Hohl 43:56
No, just keep writing, and great work what you're doing, Dave, it's a good resource for people, so, so, keep it up.

Dave Bullis 44:03
Oh, thank you very much. I'm actually working tomorrow to get this on iTunes. I think I finally found out the problem of why it won't import right, so hopefully once I've done that, you know, because people been asking again and again why this isn't on iTunes and why it's just on Podomatic. Potomac is good, but iTunes, obviously, is a brand name, and people, and people already have the, you know, the podcast app on their phone, so you know, I do want to get it on there eventually, but you know, and again, Dave is a great script consultant, I'm actually, I was just before the show, I was talking to him about a script I'm working on, which is another horror comedy, and I've mentioned this in one of my podcasts about two weeks ago, when it was just me, and it's, you know, it's a fun slasher movie, and I hope to, you know, maybe just write it for fun, or maybe, you know, produce it somewhere down the line, you never know, right? So, all right, again, Dave, thank you much, very much for coming on, and I hope you have a great night.

David Hohl 44:59
Okay, you too. Thanks, Dave.

Dave Bullis 45:00
Thanks.

David Hohl 45:01
Bye!

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BPS 484: How One Tweet Can Change Your Screenwriting Career with Jeanne Veillette Bowerman

August 13, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Some filmmakers spend years searching for the perfect camera, the right producer, or the ideal connection in Hollywood. But sometimes the most important investment isn’t a new lens or another screenplay competition—it’s simply showing up consistently, sharing what you know, and building genuine relationships. That philosophy sits at the heart of this conversation with Jeanne Veillette Bowerman, whose remarkable career demonstrates that success in screenwriting isn’t always about geography; it’s about generosity, persistence, and putting yourself where opportunities can find you.

Jeanne’s path into filmmaking wasn’t conventional. Before becoming the editor of Script Magazine and one of the most recognizable voices in the online screenwriting community, she owned a motel and restaurant for fifteen years. It wasn’t until later in life that she decided to pursue writing seriously. Like many first-time writers, she began without fully understanding just how difficult screenwriting could be. Looking back, she believes that ignorance may have been an advantage. Had she known every obstacle waiting ahead, she admits she might never have started. Instead, she embraced the challenge, learned through experience, and steadily built both her craft and her professional network.

One of the strongest themes throughout the discussion is the transformative power of social media when it’s used correctly. Jeanne explains that Twitter wasn’t originally part of a marketing strategy. She joined simply to connect with fellow screenwriters while adapting the Pulitzer Prize-winning book Slavery by Another Name into a screenplay. Those conversations eventually led to the creation of #ScriptChat, introduced her to Script Magazine, and ultimately helped launch an entirely new chapter of her career. Rather than viewing social media as a place to constantly promote projects, she believes filmmakers should approach it as a space to contribute, educate, and build authentic relationships. In her experience, people remember those who consistently provide value.

The conversation also offers practical advice for writers trying to break into Hollywood. Jeanne emphasizes that representation rarely comes from simply sending cold queries and hoping for the best. Instead, she encourages writers to develop exceptional material, attend pitch events, participate in respected screenplay competitions, seek thoughtful feedback, and continually improve their craft. Most importantly, she reminds aspiring writers that managers and agents are looking for projects they believe they can sell. That means understanding the marketplace without sacrificing the passion that originally inspired the story. Finding the balance between creativity and commercial viability remains one of the industry’s greatest challenges.

Her writing process is equally fascinating because it reveals how experienced storytellers continue experimenting with their craft. For years Jeanne relied heavily on detailed outlines before writing a single page. Recently, however, she challenged herself by collaborating with a writing partner whose process was almost entirely instinctive. Instead of mapping every scene beforehand, they began discovering the story as they wrote, allowing characters and situations to evolve organically. The experience pushed her far outside her comfort zone but also reminded her that no single writing method fits every writer. The best process is ultimately the one that keeps the pages moving forward.

Another valuable takeaway involves maintaining momentum despite the realities of everyday life. Like countless independent filmmakers, Jeanne balances multiple responsibilities including a demanding career, family obligations, editing dozens of contributors, and her own creative work. Her solution isn’t waiting for the perfect uninterrupted weekend. Instead, she writes whenever she can—even if it’s only fifteen minutes. Those brief sessions keep the story alive in her mind throughout the day, making it easier to return to the page later. It’s a practical reminder that consistency often matters more than marathon writing sessions.

Perhaps the most memorable advice she shares has little to do with formatting, structure, or pitching. It’s about reputation. Jeanne repeatedly returns to the idea that filmmaking is a relationship business. Whether interacting online, attending conferences, or collaborating on projects, generosity creates opportunities that self-promotion alone never will. Helping other writers, sharing useful resources, making introductions, and treating people with respect all contribute to a professional reputation that lasts far longer than any single screenplay. Success, she suggests, is built as much on character as it is on talent.

In an industry filled with uncertainty, rejection, and constant competition, Jeanne’s journey offers something refreshingly practical. Great careers rarely happen overnight. They grow through continuous learning, authentic connections, disciplined writing habits, and the willingness to keep evolving. Technology will continue changing the business, new platforms will emerge, and distribution models will shift, but the fundamentals remain remarkably consistent: write exceptional stories, help other people whenever you can, keep improving your craft, and never underestimate the opportunities that can begin with a single conversation.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
All right, everyone, thanks again for joining me. Joining me today is Jeanne Violette Bowerman. Jeanne is the editor and online community manager of scriptmag.com and she's also the co-founder and moderator of the weekly Twitter Screenwriter Chat, which is #scriptchat. And she's also wrote the narrative adaptation of the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel Slavery by Another Name. And furthermore, Jeannie has a script in the top 25 of the tracking board, and was named one of the top 10 most influential screenwriting blogs by Stephanie Palmer. Well, Jeanne, how are you?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:28
Good, how are you?

Dave Bullis 2:29
I'm doing pretty good. It's, you know, just another mild day here in Philadelphia. How's everything in New York?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:35
It's, it's, it's actually mild, little, you know, compared to the storms we've had lately, it's nice,

Dave Bullis 2:43
So, so, Jean, just to get started, could you give us all a little bit about your background, and you know how you got started.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 2:50
Well, I actually went to the hotel school at Cornell, and I owned a motel and restaurant for 15 years, and then, and when I turned 40. I kind of was like, okay, I'm a stay-at-home mom with no kids at home, and I had closed the business, and, and, and I always want - I had always wanted to write, and so I started writing a novel, and I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and one of my friends from college said that once you had a screenplay, they're, you know, they're easier, and well, and at the time it, I could see why someone would think that, because it's only like 110 pages, you know, compared to hundreds of pages for novel, and but obviously, as you know, as the years progressed, and I kept writing more and more, I realized that the unbelievable art to, and to writing a script that's so different than writing novels, which I'm also, I'm also writing some novels too now, but it, so I kind of just got started that way, just kind of went into it without knowing what the hell I was doing, which is probably, in some respects, looking back on it, the best way to do it, because I think if I had known how difficult it was to break into this industry, how hard it was to write a screenplay effectively and well, that might have intimidated me. And so I think for me, definitely ignorance was bliss, for sure. And then I started, well, writing slavery by another name, I started getting on, I got on Twitter, so that I could kind of meet other screen readers and get a buzz going to the projects, but I didn't realize at all the power of Twitter and the incredible network you could develop there, and because of the network from Twitter, it's really how I got Script magazine found me, and I was first a columnist there, and then now the editor. It's how I've met so many people. My current writing partner, who's on Twitter, known as Unknown Screenwriter, I've made so many incredible connections, and also how Script Chat was formed. So, really, social media is in a. Incredible way for somebody who lived outside of LA to make some groundwork,

Dave Bullis 5:05
And that's how we met too.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 5:07
Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 5:10
So, what exactly were you tweeting so that Script magazine was able to find you?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 5:16
Well, when we started Script Chat, Joshua Stecker was the then online editor of Script magazine, and he is amazing at social media, really great with Twitter, and he noticed the hashtag Script Chat, and since it's Script magazine, it caught his attention, and he's also a big history buff, and so when, and a journalist, you know, and so when he saw the project I was working on, Slayer by Another Name, he and that my partner in that project was the author of the book, who at the time was a senior national correspondent of the Wall Street Journal, and Joshua was just really intrigued by the whole project that we're working on and offered us an opportunity to just do one blog online about the project, and after getting to know me for over the course of the following year, that one blog turned into my weekly column, Balls of Steel, which I don't have the time to write weekly anymore, but and that's how Balls and Steel was born, and that's how Script magazine found me, and then once Baldwin Steve wasn't deal was born, and then they needed an editor. I raised my hand, you know, because it's nice having a day job that's in the, in the industry.

Dave Bullis 6:32
So, so you know, you use this as a great networking tool, you know. Have you gotten other, like, you know, writing jobs just from people finding you on Twitter, like sort of, like, you know, they try to contact you to write scripts for them.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 6:43
Yeah, like, there's a guy who's from London, Clive Frane. He got me together and some other people he was in at the time, he was in Milan. We had a writer in New Mexico, one in LA, and one in London, and we were working on a TV project that we were going to have that was going to be picked up in London, and ended up losing funding at the last minute, but it was an incredible experience to work on a TV show that, even though it didn't get greenlit, I still learned so much, and it was in my episode with a whorehouse hostage takeover, which was so much fun to write, and it was great, because it was just another way for me to.. I didn't know what the hell I was doing, but I just rolled with it, and it's another way to just step. I totally stepped outside of my comfort zone doing it, because I didn't know what you know. I wasn't a TV writer, you know, and I just kind of imagined someone standing behind me holding remote control, so that, you know, at any time they could click away, and that that really helped me. But yeah, so I got that, and I got another gig writing like educational videos that we wrote like in a sitcom format, and that was from some director I met on Twitter. I mean, I've gotten a lot of gigs, side gigs, and my job really from people I met online,

Dave Bullis 8:17
So I'm sorry, I have to go back for that. It's hassle taker, it's actually a hostage situation at a whorehouse.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 8:24
Yeah, it was so good. And then when I wrote it, they ended, and I killed this character in it, and they ended up the character who I just made up for the episode in order to kill him, and and they loved the character so much, they were like, okay, you have, you can't kill him now. You have to keep him alive, because we want to use him in another episode. I was like, "Oh, shit. So, I had to come up with a whole other way to figure out how to, you know, what the climax of my episode was going to be now, because they just took it away. But it was, but it was really, really fun experience.

Dave Bullis 8:57
You know, it's funny. I have a friend of mine, he wrote something called House of Horrors, and basically it's like, imagine if Hostile, the movie Hostile and Home Alone mixed, that's what House of Horrors is, and it's like they have all these, they sell these traps, and they find out, like, you know, these prostitutes are leading these guys into this, you know, this truck stop area, and then killing them one by one, and then they, the guys triggered the other hand by saying these traps, and it's just, it was funny, because he told me he sent it out, and some of the reactions that he gets, just by the name alone, he's like, people are like, I don't know if I want to read this, to, you know, you know, this, I don't know, because it's a comedy horror, so it kind of falls that gray area, have you seen a lot of things like that, you know, where sort of scripts sort of get passed over, mainly over, over, like, you know, just because of, like, the title, or even just, you know, the logline.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 10:01
Yeah, I mean, I think it's so much easier for them to say no than it is to say yes, and, and it, you know, because when you think about it, like in the publishing world, like I've got a lot of friends who have met online who are novelists, and I watch them pump out novel after novel after novel, whether it's with traditional publishing or whether it's felt published, because it doesn't take millions of dollars to publish a book, you know, but to create a turn a screenplay into a movie takes can take millions of dollars, so it's so much easier for them to say no and not get in trouble with their boss, you know, for saying yes to something that you might bomb, you know, and also the way the economy is now, you know, after the crash in 2008 it's just different, they're not, they're not willing to take as many chances, you see so many more writers now doing web series, doing things that you know, looking to put their shows on YouTube, like you know, just anything outside of the box of traditional production, because it's just you have to be creative and think of a different way to get your story out there. I even encourage writers to write their scripts, turn them into novels, because then they're intellectual property, and half of what Hollywood does is half of the films that are out are out of patience, so you know now you're opening up your script for 100% of the market, not just passes the market by being a non-intellectual property, so and I am seeing some writers do that and give that a shot, I mean, and then they, and some, I've got a friend who fell in love with, with the process, and now just wants to write novels,

Dave Bullis 11:48
Interesting, you know, I actually have a question from the, from one of the audience members, they, they actually, I guess, let me actually ask it now, since you know it is just about what we're talking about, it says I want to turn my screen, my screenplay into a novel, novel, excuse me, a la William Peter Blatty, who wrote The Exorcist, and he says, Do you think that this is a viable way to get my screen to get my screenplay and further work noticed by creating a website and then directing everyone there? So I think what he's doing is he's trying to, you know, create a book, and then when, if someone was adapted, you can automatically say, 'Hey, I have this screenplay.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 12:25
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think I think one of the, one of the many lessons I learned from Doug Blackmon, who wrote Slavery by Haber Name, is when you have this piece of, you know, this this thing that you created, whether it be a book or script, or whatever, you know, to think about all the different ways you can tap into that to utilize that piece of property, that instead of just thinking of this is just a feature film, you know. Period. You know, the keys got the book and turned it into a documentary for PBS. I wrote that at the narrative adaptation with him, he, it's, it's study material for classes, he'd love to make a play out of it. I mean, like, you have to think about, like, all the different things you can do with that piece of intellectual property that you have, and, and so, if it's the other benefit, too, just as a writer, is knowing that if you turn it into a book, if you publish it, and self-publishing is an absolutely credible option. Now it's not considered vanity publishing anymore. So, you, you killed yourself to write this script, you killed yourself to write this story. You must love it if you're going to be pitching it and staying with it, if you haven't abandoned it yet, so why not put it in some sort of form that people can read it, so it's not just sitting on your hard drive, and even if it never sells as a screenplay, people are out there reading your words and reading your story, and you're getting some sort of validation back from that, and it's part of why I blog, because when I blog, people are reading my words, even if it's just 1000 words, somebody's reading it, you know, and it makes me feel there's a sense of satisfaction in that as a writer, instead of having everything I do just sit on my hard drive, and, and, you know, if it doesn't get made into a movie, nobody sees it, so yeah, I would definitely tell them, yes, do it.

Dave Bullis 14:22
Oh, excellent. And you know, I, that's something I brought up too, too, because I actually brought up graphic novel adaptation, because you know, I was actually listening to another podcast, and they brought up, you know, how to go to Amazon, and you can create a Kindle version, and then they also brought up how to create an actual physical version that's basically print on demand, so that way you know it's a win-win for everybody, so you know, and like you said, it's not vanity anymore, you know, self-publishing. I was talking about a guest, I forget off the top of my head which guest was, but they actually brought up the fact that it would take a lot for them to actually go back to, you know, pitching again to like Penguin. Right, or you know, random books, because they, they think it's more viable now to just self-publish yourself, create your own Amazon store, and go and grow off your own website, like, like you have, if you have your own blog, and now you have people going directly to your website, which is genieveebee.com and you know, people can now, you know, see all your other work, so it's like you're your own marketing department, pretty much, and your own, your own content creation, everything.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 15:26
Well, and one of our, one of our script chat co-founders, Jamie Livingston, and I should mention the other co-founders are King Garland and Zach Sanford. Jamie took a little break from screenwriting and started writing novels, thinking she would just, oh yeah, write a couple novels, but her novels have become so popular that she can't stop writing them, because their audience wants another one. And she joined together with, and forgive me, Jamie, if you're listening, and I get this wrong, but I think this is how it went. She joined together with six other authors, and they are the unlucky seven, and they, they sell their books collectively together, these thriller books, seven thriller books, and they are like USA Today best-selling authors. They might even have just become New York Times best-selling authors. I don't know, I'll have to look that up and see, but if you look up Unlucky Seven, you can find them, and, but, and this is this is a woman who's, you know, a screenwriter, and said, I need a break, I need to do something different, and started writing these novels, and she did easily turn them, these new series, because she has series of novels, so she could easily turn them into a TV show, into what, you know, all different kinds of things, and but those stories are out there to get attention from people, and you know, you gotta write, if you're a writer, you need to write, and, and there's no point in writing something that nobody ever gets to read.

Dave Bullis 16:50
Yeah, I'll link to that in the show notes to the Unlucky Seven, but yeah, that's pretty interesting, and you know, and again, you know, just creating like this podcast too, is it's just a different way, I know it's not writing, obviously, but you know, I just use that sort of ethnic, it's good because it's something I wanted to do just to do it, it was sort of like on my, my 2004 things to, you know, get started list, because I was part of other podcast, you know, and, but you know, but you know, it's also, I think, another way to, you know, get exposure for not only me, but the guests, you know, somebody ever stumbles upon something, you know,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 17:29
Absolutely, absolutely, and Script Chat did that for us very much, though, like it got us exposure, it got us recognized by people, you know, people then would start contacting us to say, you know, I want to be a guest on Script Chat. I mean, it's a great networking tool, and it also is a.. it's not just that, it's.. it's.. it's a pay-it-forward thing, you know, where you're.. you're talking about something you love, and you're also giving this, you know, content to your listeners, so that they can learn, and it leaves you feeling warm and fuzzy, and leaves people feeling warm and fuzzy about you, and it's just a win-win.

Dave Bullis 18:06
Yeah, absolutely. So, so you know, Jeannie, you know, could you give us, you know, just to switch topics, but could you give us, you know, what is your daily writing life like? I mean, like, what is your daily, you know, your daily routine, like

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 18:23
Insane

Dave Bullis 18:27
With two questions, and I figured, you know, what I might as well just ask this with Kill Two Birds One Stone.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 18:33
Yeah, well, okay, there's things about my life that people, you know, I'm one of those feels like really open about stuff, I'm not. I don't try to pretend I'm something I'm not, or anything like that. I mean, I am. I am my reader at Script magazine. I'm hustling, I'm writing, I'm trying to juggle a day job and a family, and.. and I have one daughter in college, and my son is a senior in high school, and so we've been applying to colleges and doing all that kind of stuff, and I've got pets, and I've got an at Script magazine. What a lot of people don't know is I don't have a team at Script, it's just me, and I have 60 contributors, so I manage these 60 contributors and edit all of the work that you see online, and so it's, it's juggling, it is challenging, but what I've discovered is that, you know, I think one of the biggest blessings for me that works for me, for other people, I think what really works for them is to have the nine to five job, where you go, you just focus on your work nine to five, and you come home, and you don't have that kind of job where you know you have to take it home with you, you might have to work on the weekends at night, and then you can just focus on your writing on those off hours. For me, my job is not like that, because I have people from all different time zones. I've got writers in LA, and I have writers in London, so I get emails all the time. And since they're freelance writers, a lot of time they're working and writing their articles on the weekends. They don't have boundaries of nine to five, so I can't have boundaries of nine to five, so that's the challenge for me in finding time to write, and, and when your kids are hungry, your kids are hungry, they want dinner on the table, I'm, you know, and I'm still pretty old-fashioned that way, you know, like I still have dinner on the table every night, and you know, all that kind of stuff, but so what I do is, I find that I never used to be a morning writer, like right now, while we're talking, my, my daughter's texting me because she's at the supermarket, and one hold on, okay, I'm gonna ignore her, so and so, so what I do is I get up in the morning, and I, and I try to just write, like, as soon as I get the kid off to school and get the dog fed, I sit down and I try to write, because I find that if I try to do all my other stuff first and then write, I'm too tired at the end of the night, like I can't write after dinner, like I know a lot of people can write at night, late into the night, I can't do that, I'm too tired. I want to, I want to drink, I'm done. So I start my day writing, and then I'll pop in, check my email at work, make sure everything is okay, and then as soon as I'm like okay, capped out, wrote that scene, wrote whatever it was. My goal was for the day, even if I honestly, Dave, even if I only write for 15 minutes, I have to write something, because, or else I'm just a bitch. Like, it gets me irritable, like I didn't take care of myself today. It makes me, then, as the day goes on, I start getting resentful, because I didn't, I didn't do what I wanted to do, so I try really, really hard to do that. I'm not always successful, but I do try to write in the morning, and then, and then I, and then I go full, full on into my day job, and just work, work, work, work, work, and then if, but if I'm inspired, and I want to keep writing in the morning, and I just am on a roll, I keep writing, and then I, then I will many, many nights I will end up doing my day job until 11 o'clock at night, because I have to do what I didn't do during the day, but I'm very blessed to work from home, so that I have that flexibility to tap into my creativity when I'm feeling it, and I know a lot of other people don't have that, but and then I try on the weekends, I dedicate Sunday fun day, you know, and so I try to do all my mom's stuff on Saturdays, so that on Sunday is my day, and I can just write, that's how I find works for me

Dave Bullis 23:02
Excellent, so you know, because a lot of people do work the nine to five, and sometimes there are like, you know, people who are on call, so like, if they do work the nine to five, suddenly they're getting, you know, calls at, you know, 8o'clock at night, you know, yeah, exactly. So is

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 23:18
The other thing, too, other than interject for a second, the other thing, too, is to try to write on your lunch break, like you know, just really be disciplined and write any second you can. I'm actually one of my friends had contacted me the other day, nervous, he had an opportunity for to take on a gig to write a script and actually get paid to do it, and he was very nervous to say yes, because how am I going to find the time to do this, and and so I put a call out onto Facebook and onto Twitter for people to give me advice about how they work a day job and get writing done, and people sent in a ton, ton of comments and tweets, which I've collected, and I will write a future balls and steal about this, just bullet listing everybody's ideas of how to get, how to get that done. I probably won't write it for a couple of weeks, but when I do, I'll shoot you the URL.

Dave Bullis 24:11
Oh, thank you. You know, because you know, I speak of, you know, you said writing at least 15 minutes, and I remember I got advice before from somebody from an actual working writer in LA, and he said the same thing, because basically he said as long as you can just even get a small amount done, he said by the end he actually timed it out. He said if what he tries to do is it's at least 15 minutes a day, and at most he said he'll just do it till he like sort of burns out, and on those magical days when you know, sort of everything his schedule clears up, and basically he tries to get a rough draft done within like three to four weeks. Have you heard? I mean, is your style similar to that? We try to get, you know, just that first draft, bang guys quickly as possible.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 25:05
Well. Yes, I'm actually trying a different process right now, which I'll discuss in one second. I just want to say this about what this current topic, so that I don't forget, but one of the beautiful things about the 15 minutes is even just, even just getting, if you spend it, what's going to happen is your mind is still going to be thinking about it all throughout the day, and, and so that 15 minutes really is a lot more than 15 minutes, because even if you're not putting words on the page and you're thinking about it, that counts as writing, because you're digesting and developing the story in your head, and, and the other trick I would say that helps you pick right up quickly, would you only have 15 minutes, is don't finish like never, never completely finish a scene, so that you have, and say, okay, now I'm done today, because I finished the scene. If you, if your goal is to finish that scene, finish it, but then start the next scene before, and then stop for the day, because if you've already started the scene, your head's going to be thinking about that scene throughout the day. So, when you sit back down, you're not looking at a blank page, and you've already been digesting it, so you can just kind of hit the ground running. Those are little things that I think have helped me.

Dave Bullis 26:27
So, so then, so what process now are you using to write this new script?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 26:35
Oh yeah, oh my god, I am so far out of my comfort zone, Dave. It, I just, I just had a long talk with Unc about this yesterday, because I was freaking out, because it's so different than what I normally do. I normally outline, I'm like an outline junkie, and I think part of it is because I hate starting things, so outlining, I just, you know, outline, outline, and I kind of sometimes use it too much as a safety net, I, and even though I never really, I stick to the outline somewhat, I never have a problem when I'm writing, going off the outline, exploring characters, all of that kind of stuff, but for some reason I just kind of need an outline, and, and, and so an unk never writes with an outlier, he might have just sort of a broad brush stroke, but he's been doing this for years, and, and I don't know if you just to clarify, unknown screenwriter is a ghost writer, he writes for hire with no credit with NDAs, he's written, he's written with some incredible people and rewritten some incredibly talented top writers. I mean, he's he's been at this for a very long time, so he is challenging me to try to embrace with this new project that we're working on his style, which, and I'm, I love challenging myself, I love trying different, different processes and seeing what works best for me, and discovering new ways to do things and new ways to tap into that creative energy. So we are literally writing the first draft like it's like we're brainstorming, like I have when I send him this, when I write something, and I sent him the script to pick up where we left off. I never know what he's gonna do, like this last scene he sent it back to me, and he'd kill someone, and I'm like, okay. And we're like exploring characters, where.. and so I was like, okay, I'm struggling with this. I'm really struggling. I'm feeling like I don't know, like I'm standing blindfolded in the middle of a forest, you know, like, where am I supposed to go, you know, and, and he, and so he's just encouraging me to, he's like, you know, you might am reminding me of things like, and this is what's great when you have a writing partner who knows you well and knows and knows, you know, like, what might he could look at my fear objectively and not emotionally, and remind me, look, you're a martial artist when you're standing in the dojo and somebody starts fighting you. Do you do you sit there and think about it? You just react, you just, you know, block, punch, kick, whatever you have to do, you just muscle memory, and you just relax and do it. So, do the same thing when you're writing, like shut the door, like Stephen King says, and just write, and, and, and take that pressure off of yourself, and just think of it as like you're just brainstorming, but in script format, so that then by the end of the time of brainstorming, instead of having an outline, we have a script, and then we can play with that, and so I am, I'm trying that, and I think I'm going to like it, but it's a little, it's a little scary for somebody who's used to outlining, but there's tons of people who do it this way and don't outline, so I'm just trying a different, a different process this time,

Dave Bullis 30:02
So, so, Jeanne, when you outline, do you like what exactly do you.. how do you outline, and what I mean by that is, do you like go by like Sid Fields two points, you know what I mean. I forget the name of something my head, I can't believe..

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 30:25
No, I know, and there's all those different ways, like beat the beat sheet and the hero's journey, and there's so many different structure ways. I think I think once you, when you're starting out, it's really important to pay attention to that kind of stuff, and then at a certain point, a certain point, you sort of get to a point where you know story well enough that you don't have to look at that roadmap, kind of thing. One of the things what I started that I really loved was Michael Hague and Chris Vogler have a DVD called The Heroes Two Journeys, and I thought that was that was something that really helped me when I was beginning, because it talked about not just the structure in terms of plot points, but also the structure in terms of the character's arc and evolution, and and that I thought was a really great resource for a beginning writer, and even to remind yourself I would go back and watch it, you know, right before I would start any new script, just to kind of refresh my mind and memory of it, but then it just becomes intuitive. So, what I, what I had been doing.. Oh my god, like, was Slavery by Another Name, that that script has become Slavery by Nottingham in some respects, like six years, you know, into it, but we had a 31 page outline, and by the time that it got to that point, it was like slug lines. I would then do this really detailed outline, and then put it into the screenwriting software, and with complete with slug line and a paragraph for each what was supposed to happen in the intent and purpose of that scene, and that helped me, because I was never ever looking at a blank page, so I would go in and I would look at this, is what I'm going to do, and then I would just sit down and write that scene, and sometimes things would change, scenes would get deleted and added and change, you know, you don't, the trick to outlining is never to think of it as something that's set in stone. You have to, like, let it go, you know. But at least it gives you sort of a little map, and you can veer off of it, or, and whatnot. And that has.. that was always my comfort zone, knowing that I had this. Okay, this is.. I'm a planner, so it helped me to know I have a plan. This is the plan of the scene, and this is what's going to happen.

Dave Bullis 32:42
Yeah, you know, I've outlined too, and I'm sure other people have. And suddenly, you know, when you start writing, you either realize you've not written enough or you've written too much, and you're like, oh my god, what I thought was gonna be, you know, a two-page scene is now spanning 15 pages, and that's when you sort of, so when that happens, do you just sort of continue with the just doing it, and then then you edit later, and when you're finished a rough draft?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 33:09
Yeah, I just, I just let it go, just write however much I want to write. The first draft is Slavery by Know the Name was 175 pages, and and it's an epic story, but nothing's worth 175 so it's, I think it's now like 132 but it's, but it isn't, it, you know, it's a little lengthy, but it is an epic story, I wouldn't, if it was any other story other than this, I wouldn't have it be that long, but, but, yeah, you just let it go, and then, and you cannot mean that's what rewriting is all about, because you never know what's going to come out, like even, and even when people would give me notes, and I wouldn't like those notes, I wouldn't agree with them, I would still try them, because you know, there might be something in that note, there's something in it that's worthy of something, it might not be this, the exact note they gave me, that their solution might not be the solution that I ended up using, but by trying something, I could always find a solution that worked for me and the note giver, and that, and when I say solution that will work for the note giver, it only needs to work for the note giver if the note giver is your producer. If it's just somebody who's reading your script to give you notes, you don't have to worry about pleasing them. You just listen to what they're saying and see if it works for your story or not. But when I had producers, definitely pleasing them is important.

Dave Bullis 34:40
Yeah, I'm part of a writer's group, and we always, you know, give each other notes, you know, we hand in, you know, scripts each month, not completed scripts, but usually like 10 to 20 pages, and when you get notes, you see a lot of different ideas, you know, stuff like that. So that's a very good point. The point you just brought up was take the note for. The other readers, and see if you agree with it, and see how it would help your story, and also see, you know, the person saying it, and why they're saying it. Me, like, what are they trying to convey? Some people have, you know, certain things, like they just want to read horror scripts, or some people just want to read comedies, you know. And, you know, it's, I think, that that also obviously weighs into whatever they're trying to convey.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:21
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 35:22
Yeah. so Jean, do you want to take some questions, because you have a lot, but I'm not going to take, I'm not going to ask all of them, like I was just, just mentioning to you, as we started this, there was a lot that came in at like the midnight hour,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:36
Whatever you want to ask, go ahead, sure,

Dave Bullis 35:38
So I'll ask probably the best five or so, so the first question actually had came in. This is by John, who's a producer on the screen, producer of the film The Walking Fool, and his question is, Does one script actually mean, does one page of the script equal one page on screen?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 35:57
Yeah, I mean, I think it, it, it typically, that's the rule, like when you're writing, you think of one minute is one page, but it depends on what's on the page and what the director decides to do with that, and you know, but that's the basic standard rule, it doesn't exactly like if you sat there with a stopwatch, you know, like it doesn't exactly make a minute, but that's just a way to gage.

Dave Bullis 36:25
Yeah, by the way, have you seen that yet? The commercial, because they're doing India, go, go for it, and he actually, the film was all about a guy who actually walked from New York all the way to California. Oh, cool. And I don't know if you, if you've heard of it yet.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 36:42
He had a walking stick, because I'm really into walking sticks lately.

Dave Bullis 36:45
He did. There's different pictures of him going through all the different states, and some states he actually had a walking stick.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 36:51
I want one that has like a little button that you push that a knife comes out, because I live with the country, so I'm walking on these back like dirt roads, and they're bare, and you know there's a lot of stuff out there, you know. There was a completely different side note, but no, I haven't seen it yet, and I would love to check it out.

Dave Bullis 37:11
There was a walking stick that I saw that actually unfolded, and there was a sword inside, so like it was that this steak, this stick was actually the sheath, so you would pull it out, and it was actually a double-bladed sword, so I guess if there was a bear, you could actually fend it off, at least you had something, and then you could just resheath it, and then it's a walking stick again.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 37:31
Oh my god, I totally want that. I totally want that. So badass.

Dave Bullis 37:38
Yeah, I saw, like, a couple years ago I was looking, my mom was asking for a walking stick, and I found it, and I was like, "Wow, no, I didn't get it, because I don't think she would probably be like, "Oh my god, I'm never using it, because she'll, she'll only use like certain stuff, and I know if I showed her there was a sword inside, she'd probably like, "Oh my god, I'll get arrested, but

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 38:01
S he'd probably send you the therapy,

Dave Bullis 38:06
So the second question is, How does an unknown screenwriter get representation?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 38:14
Oh my god, this is like this. This we could talk all day about. I think basically what there's, there's a lot of stuff that, that, like, I've moderated a lot of panels at conferences where we set panels of agents and managers, and everybody, everybody wants to know, like, this magic trick, you know, and actually wrote a post called The Magic Trick of Selling Your Screenplay, it's one of my balls and field posts, where you know, I talk about some of that, but basically, in terms of getting representation, specifically not selling it, from what I don't have representation, and but I have gotten my script read by like the top agencies and and great production companies and things like that by hustling like I learned, learn how to pitch, and one of the best ways to learn how to pitch is to go to pitch fast, and you're not, honestly, you're not going to sell your script at a pitch fest, but you're going to learn how to, how to pitch your script, how to get comfortable talking to executives, you're going to make connections, you're going to get part of, you're not just trying to sell your script, you're trying to sell yourself, and because if they say yes to the script, they're going to have to work with you. So it, it really is helpful to practice those pitching skills with people in those in that pitch fest environment, because you can do every, you know, the pitches are only for five minutes, so you just, you're in line, and you just go, go, go, go, go for, for hours all day, and you can easily get in, like, you know, 1518, pitches in a day, and those are 15 or 18 people who if you had to drive all around LA and try to get meetings with you, never would be able to, and yeah, I mean, there's no question, a lot of them are assistants, you know, but today's assistant is tomorrow's studio head, but people change companies so often in this industry that they may be at XYZ Company today, but over at ABC Company tomorrow, you know, and that may be the fit for your script, you know, like so, and they might just, and the trick is, is getting read, so that people know whether you're a good writer or not, and if you're a really good writer, your script is going to stand out, and so the other way to do it is by entering contests, like, like this tracking board launchpad. The whole purpose of this is not, it's to try to get these 25 top writers to launch their careers. The blacklist is another great way to, it's not a contest, but it's a great way to get feedback on your script and get it listed, and so many executives do look at the blacklist to find material, you can tag your, your stuff. I just, I just entered Slavery by another name into it. I'm waiting for the feedback, so that it could be listed, because I'm curious to see how the process works. I know you know they've got, they've had people get representation from that as well. The best, you know, the big contest, like Austin, the Austin Film Festival, one is really good. Final Draft, Big Break, Script of Palooza, Blue Cat. When it's the big contest, executives will notice they will read those, and you may not even know they're reading your script. If it places as a finalist, people will just read them. They will.. it's not like they'll even contact you to say we're going to read your script. They just get them, and so. but don't I would say don't bother with the contests that are, that are smaller, that unless they're, it's like a contest that gives you, like, you know, money as a prize, that, and you need the money, but if you're, if it's a smaller contest, they're not going to really notice the representations, the reps aren't really going to notice those, you know, so unless they offer feedback or something else that you find a personal value, they probably aren't going to help you career wise, but you know, just and write a lot, like write the other, you know, the other thing is you've got to write something that's marketable, something they can sell, there's no point in them repping you, like, and that's this is why this is probably why I don't have an agent yet, because the thing that I'm most known for is Slavery by Another Name, which is a very, very difficult thing to sell, and everyone who reads it says, "Oh my god, this has to get made, this is such an important story, and it's about slavery post civil war, everything that's going on right now with Ferguson and all of this relations between the law enforcement and the African American community, Slavery by Eve Nain is all about prison laboring, and how the South, after the Civil War, how the South created these laws to reinstate, to re-enslave blacks by arresting them for these false crimes, and then leasing them as prison laborers, and that's why slavery by another name in this is, and before those laws were created, blacks and whites were there, 50/50 blacks and whites in in prisons, and then after these laws, a disproportionate number of African Americans were imprisoned, and that leaves a stigma in society where people start thinking, oh my god, there are dangerous people, and they aren't. It's, you know, it's the laws that were created, and you know, years and years of that happening, you know, changes society's perception of a culture, and, and so it's extremely timely right now. So I'm hoping that that helps us, but it's still a very difficult sell, because it's a period piece, it, you know, it's not going to be a cheap film to make, so you need to get representation, they need to know they can sell something and make money off of you, so I'm writing other things right now with Ankh and myself that are much more marketable that are easier to sell, so that then hopefully I can get those sold, and then someone will get slavery, so you know, don't pick, don't do what I did and pick that monumental herculean project, you know, and and have that be your, your, your thing that's on the forefront, you know, think, think smaller and marketable, and something that they can sell, because that's, you know, that's how they put food on their table, is to sell your stuff.

Dave Bullis 44:47
So that ties in with the my next question, you know, speaking of a sellable screenplay, is how to tell, or how do you tell if you have a good concept or not. Oftentimes I'll do. Up a concept and begin writing, only to hit a dead end,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 45:07
That is the million dollar question. I mean, if it, you know, I mean, really, I think it's, it's one of the things that I did. I, you know, we're working on this project now, it's a horror project, and, and over Thanksgiving, I pitched it to my nieces and nephews, who were all like in that target audience range, 18 to 25 you know, and they were all like, oh my god, oh my god, I would totally see that, oh my god, you know, like, so you want that kind of reaction from your target audience, but also think about, think about budget, think about because those are also things that matter, you know. 18 to 25 year old males are, are like, I think the biggest audience for films, and they'll go see them multiple times. So, if you can tap into that, you know, but you also have to find not just the marketable idea, but that idea that you can be passionate about writing, because if you aren't, if you're just writing a horror piece, you know, whore, that horror, but like a total, like horror piece for money, for whatever, just to see if you can break in that way, but you aren't passionate about it, it's it's going to show on the page, so the trick is finding something that you have you can tap into and and and really enjoy writing that somebody can sell and there will be an audience for it that has not a monumental budget because that matters too, you know, so it's, it's tricky. I mean, there's a high concept, you know, is, is it is really tough. I, I was talking to a professional writer, Joe Zoom, one day. He was a guest on Script Shot. He's, I think, one of his scripts is on track and boards hit list, and he was telling me that with his manager, he will literally go over 100 ideas, 100 or more ideas, and his aunt, his manager will say, "This is the one you're going to write, so if you can get representation, they can certainly help you decide which one they think they can sell, but I would say look at things like the hit list, look at the blacklist, look at, look at the top 25 on the tracking board launch pad, look at log lines of things that are selling, and and sort of research and figure, and it's not about following the trends, it's, it's about figuring out what made that, why was that log line so good, you know, like it, it takes a while to hone that skill of figuring out what is the project, and honestly, I think you're better off spending a lot of time figuring out what to write than just writing any idea that you have, because you know if you, you write it and you can't sell it, you still learn stuff from writing things, even if you don't sell it. So, it still helps hone your writing skills, but if you're really trying to get representation and, and sell something, spend a lot of time figuring out what it is you're going to write that would attract somebody, would attract the audience, isn't going to cost a fortune to make, especially if you're just breaking in, you know, because if it's not going to cost a lot to make, you can also do it as an indie film too,

Dave Bullis 48:35
Exactly right, and you know we were talking about that with past guests as well, was, you know, if you had a, if you sort of reverse engineer it by taking a list of what you have, which is sometimes called the Rodriguez list, so hey, I have access to, like, this farmhouse and stuff like that, and suddenly you're building, basing a film there, you know, settings entirely inside this farmhouse, and you know that way, if it does get noticed, that way you can just try to crowdfund it, or you know, pull every resource you have together to make the small film, and maybe just put up on YouTube, just try to get noticed.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 49:07
Yeah, I mean, and people do it all the time, they make these these films, and then they go, they submit them to film festivals, and they get noticed, and they win awards, and then they go on to do something bigger, you know. It happens all the time.

Dave Bullis 49:19
And speaking of million dollar questions, this is this ties in with what we're talking about, and this is this is another million dollar question, is getting discovered, which is I'm hoping to get discovered with my screenplay, but I don't know where to start. This person lists the blacklist, tracking board, script shadow, is there a specific website that they should put their material on for a better chance of getting noticed.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 49:46
The first thing I would say, before you put your script anywhere, make sure it is the best possible script that it can be, and so get feedback. You know, don't put it out too soon, the because there's like, you know, there's they keep track of stuff like that, you know, like whether, whether to consider the writer or not, not just the idea, but the writer, so you want to make sure that it's written well, because you don't want to have like a red mark next to your name. So one of the things that, like, the tracking board does, and the blacklist does, is you get, you get feedback, and I know a lot of people talk about not wanting to pay for coverage, don't want to pay for notes. I think I've always done it. I've always gotten some sort of coverage, and not coverage so much, but you know, notes and script notes, especially when I started off. Now I don't. Now I don't really pay for them anymore. I mean, I did on the blacklist and on the tracking board, but because I have great respect for them, but for the most part, I mean, I have I have friends who are great writers, and we trade scripts with each other, and we give each other notes, but for these opportunities to get noticed, I'm not opposed to paying, and I look at it as it's like you're paying for a tutor, you know, it's part, it's an investment in myself and in my education as a writer, and so I always learn something from notes that makes me a better writer. So, before you list it anywhere, make sure it is the best possible script that it can be, and then submit it, and I would definitely say all of those things that I mentioned in those contests that we talked about earlier are all great ways to get noticed.

Dave Bullis 51:52
So, you know, just to continue that question, what if somebody just put a screenplay up on their own website, like they actually created a website, you know, they got wix.com and they just built their own website, doing very simple stuff. What do you think of that idea? Just sort of to, just to get it out there.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 52:09
I wouldn't do it.

Dave Bullis 52:11
Okay,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 52:15
I'm not even sure I can. I can articulate why, but I'm a big Spidey sense person. You know, my media spidey sense was no, no, no, don't do that, and I trust my gut. I think there's, there's, because you know, because you're going to change, I mean, you know, you're going to change it, you're going to rewrite it, you're going to evolve it, so if you put it up and it's not just fucking amazing, then you know, you kind of blow the opportunity to really have it be this, you know, the best it can be. I think you know, because what if somebody reads it today, but then tomorrow you do a rewrite that's just killer, but now they're not going to revisit it, because they already read it, you know, like it's. I don't know, it's just not something I would do. I think that you're better off just querying people, and or going to pitching events, or entering contests, and having people request it to read it. That's that's me, you know.

Dave Bullis 53:20
No, I just, you know, I just wanted to ask, since we're talking about it, and I heard there somebody once suggested that to me, and I was like, I don't know about that. So that's why I kind of,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 53:31
And I think if your spidey sense immediately says I don't know about that, I think you have to just trust that and not go with it, you know, not do it, and sometimes you don't need like a absolute rational reason why to do or not do something, just trust your gut, you know.

Dave Bullis 53:48
Yeah, I know what you exactly mean. So, you know, Jeannie, I've - we've been talking about for about an hour, I've taken up a lot of your time, so you're a busy person, I know, so you probably like, I gotta get writing. Oh,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 54:03
It's a nice break, actually.

Dave Bullis 54:05
So, is there anything that we, that we haven't discussed that you will like to bring up?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 54:14
Yeah, you know, I would like to say on a little bit about social media and social media etiquette, I think it's really, really important when you're participating in social media that you are mindful and respectful of people's time, and, and, and, and, and really, what you're there for, you know, like you're there to connect, you're there to be social, you're there to build a network and build a relationship, so it's important for people to not be selfish online and to be giving, and, and you know, like what you're doing with these podcasts, what I do with script chat, what you know. Lot of other people do with just simply, you know, and obviously these are big platforms that not everyone can wants to do and wants to dedicate that kind of time, but even I'm talking just as simple as you found a great article you want to share with other writers, tweet it out, you know, you know, if you meet, if you meet people online and you think this person might like, say, say you want to write a graphic novel, but you want to have, you need somebody who might, you know, you might need an artist, or you might need something else that, that they say, "Oh, I know somebody who could help Dave, you know, and then introduce those two people, you know, it's, it's, it's not about you all the time, you know, like it's it, it is about it's a community of people, and and the best way to get the most value out of that space is to be a giving person, and it does all it does truly come back to you, and then every once in a while you're going to need some help, and you can say to somebody, say, 'Hey, I, you know, I want.. I'm doing a crowdfunding campaign, or I'm doing this, or I'm doing that. I could use some help with this. People will be much more likely to come and help you if you've been helpful to other people. That's my two cents. And, and just don't suck, like, you know, like to be a good, decent human being.

Dave Bullis 56:23
You know, it's funny. I actually knew somebody who would take to Facebook every time they had a problem with somebody, and they would just like go into this person, and people all over were like, 'What the hell is wrong with that person? Like, why would you do that?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 56:40
The delete tweet feature is a very good thing.

Dave Bullis 56:47
That's why I always try to make jokes, or you know, or networking. That's why I kind of social media. I, if, if you notice, I stay out of politics completely

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 56:56
Because I talk about them at all.

Dave Bullis 56:58
Yeah, there's just.. I don't think it's conducive to any, any sort of dialog or anything, that's why it's either self-deprecating jokes at myself or like, hey, it's a useful piece of information, and then you know, like, the third one's like, oh, hey, I got this podcast, I suck, but the guests don't, so it's

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 57:13
Yeah, and I find that whenever people do talk about politics, even if it's even if it's my same political viewpoint, they always, it always pisses people off, and people start on following them, and, and you know, it, and then it'd be, it's, it's, what is, what is the point of that? Like, first of all, why can't we all, isn't this what America is all about, that we all have different viewpoints of view, and why can't we celebrate that? Why do people have to get so pissy about it? I just don't want to engage in it, because I find it's just really, really - it ends up being biting and negative, and that's not what I'm there for. I don't really, honestly, I don't really give a shit, like you know, everybody can feel the way they want to feel, and they have a right to feel they want to the way they want to feel, but I don't have to feel the way everyone else feels, and everyone else doesn't have to feel the way I feel, just like any advice I've given today on screenwriting, there, you know, there's going to be somebody who disagrees with it, and I'm totally fine with that, because I only speak from my experience as a screenwriter, and, and so this has been my experience. Are there other ways to break in? Are there other ways to get a manager? Absolutely, you've got a friend who, who knows somebody, I mean, it's definitely like who you know. Don't be afraid to ask people you know. Do you know somebody who might like this script? You know, ask your friends. Like, there's so many different ways to go about it. There's as many ways to break into the industry as there are people. There's no one right way. And so I think in social media, people have to be open to different viewpoints and different philosophies and different angles of breaking in. Some people hate pitch fest. I love them, you know. They worked for me. They haven't worked for other people. It's everybody's going to have a different experience. So I would suggest to everyone that they just try to dip their toe in and try a whole bunch of different kinds of things and see what feels organic and works for you, and then go with that.

Dave Bullis 59:06
Yeah, that sounds amazing. And also, you put on the point is there is a ton of different ways to break in, and and you never really know who's watching on social media, too. Because I mean, you hear about that almost, I don't say all the time, but you hear about them more frequently, is someone was found on Twitter, or someone was found on their blog, like Diablo Cody was found because of her blog.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 59:28
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,

Dave Bullis 59:31
Yeah. So, you know, never know, that's why you should always stay away.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 59:35
I think screen readers really should have websites and have had blog about something. I don't give a shit if you're blogging about your cat, you know, just blog about something, because it helps people know that you can tell a story, and, and even a story just in 500 words, or whatever it is, for the blog post that makes them more confident requesting your script, if they see that you can at least write and. Be articulate and, and tell an engaging story. Make them laugh, make them cry, make them feel something. Plus, practically it has all your contact information on it. Like, don't make it hard for people to find you on Twitter, you know, there's not there's not always people that if they don't have a website, there's nowhere for people to really know, like to get your email address, or to, you know, so make it easy for executives to discover you, and having a website is the best way to do it.

Dave Bullis 1:00:40
Yeah, that's good point. I've actually gotten a ton of contacts through my contact form on my website, and yeah, so it's, you know, and also it's good because I can filter through all some of this stuff. Some of the stuff's usually like, hey Dave, I don't know who you are, and you don't know me, but here's my crowdfunding campaign, give me money.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:00:59
Oh my God. Yes, you should see some of the things I get in my email inbox, but we won't go there, because that's a whole other.. we should do like a genie's mailbag.

Dave Bullis 1:01:14
I, anytime you want to come back, Jeannie, please let me know, and we will do that. We will go through all the different emails you get, because actually that not only is fascinating, but I think would be educational as well.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:25
Yeah, oh yeah, and and you might need to be drinking for that one.

Dave Bullis 1:01:30
Why not? I mean, I was, I'm drinking coffee right now, but I'll switch to like Wild Turkey 101 or something.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:38
Perfect, my favorite.

Dave Bullis 1:01:42
Do you like wild turkey?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:44
Yeah, I do love it. And you know what's really great, if you soak Rolo's in it. Oh my god, just

Dave Bullis 1:01:50
Really?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:01:50
Yes, poke little holes in the bottom of the rollers and stick them in a, in a, in a shallow bowl and put wild turkey in there. It's great.

Dave Bullis 1:02:00
I've never, I've never heard of that before, but I'm gonna try it now.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:03
Happy holidays,

Dave Bullis 1:02:05
That's all I get through Wild Turkey 101 I got addicted to the American Honey Wild Turkey, because it's just so smooth.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:13
Oh yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
I had a Thanksgiving party with some friends, and I, they normally, they're like, oh, we don't drink whiskey, and I put them a little bit of the American honey wild turkey, and they're like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. This tastes so good. I was like, "Yeah, it's smooth, and you know it's like my go-to drink.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:02:30
Yeah, it's great. We need that.

Dave Bullis 1:02:34
We get too many emails about crowdfunding campaigns. I actually just became a moderator of a board of all called the Launch Board, and it's all about, you know, tips and tricks about crowdfunding, and this and that, and one of the rules that the person who, who made it said was, "Do not post your crowdfunding campaign. He goes, "Asking for advice and trying to promote it are two different things, and he's like, "You know, because he and I were talking, he said he had to leave a bunch of private groups on Facebook because of that. It was just so many crowdfunding campaigns, one after the other, and you're like, this isn't even a group anymore, it's just, you know, like a.. it's a.. I'm getting marketed to, and just.. it's like spam, you know. So

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:03:14
It is, and it's.. and I, you know, I did it once for our short film, Impasse, and we raised over $15,000 and I'm so, so appreciative to everybody who helped us with that, but I wouldn't, I really, if I never have to do another crowdfunding campaign again in my life, I'll be thrilled. It's, it's, it's exhausting, it's hard work, it's, you know, it's, and it's, and I don't know, I just, I hope I never have to do one again.

Dave Bullis 1:03:41
I'm sorry, even people you know I know who had the quote unquote rich relatives, even they struggled. I'm not saying, you know, if anyone's listening, I'm not saying not to do it, because you, as you know, I've had a ton of guests on the recent background.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:03:58
Incredible, it's an incredible resource, and there's some incredible platforms to do crowdfunding. Now, you know, Seed and Spark, I mean, there's so many great, great platforms for people to help independent filmmakers get the money to make their dreams come true. I mean, I think crowdfunding is great. I have no problem with it. I'm just saying, as somebody, to do it, it's, it's a, it's a lot of work, you know.

Dave Bullis 1:04:20
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:04:20
You earn every pay a lot of work.

Dave Bullis 1:04:24
Yeah, oh, absolutely, it definitely is a lot of work. That's what I always caution people on before they start one. I always say, you know, this is going to be a lot of work. This isn't going to be like, oh, I'm going to send one tweet out and suddenly I'm going to be, you know, rolling in six figures.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:04:37
But you see, it all comes down to the don't suck, because if you stop on social media, no one is going to want to help you in your crowdfunding campaign. I mean, you know, it's.. and you can't think about that after the fact. Just to think about that from day one, when you start tweeting or start connecting with people online, it.. you have to always be mindful of that, like I say to my kids, you know, don't. I don't, you know, put anything out there that you wouldn't want to see on the front page of the newspaper. I just happen to be very comfortable with seeing anything on the front page, like I'm not very guarded, you know, online, but I think some people should be a little more guarded than they are.

Dave Bullis 1:05:18
Yeah, I think we all have friends like that, where it's like maybe you should take that tweet down, maybe it's not a, you know, you're trying to get investors for your film, and he's, and he was, you know, tweeting about random stuff that could be taken very out of context, but, but, Jeannie, this has been awesome having you on work, oh, thank you, you know, again, like, if you want to come back on, please let me know, because I would love to do the Jenny's mailbag, or Jean's mailbag, and you know, go through all the crazy emails,

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:05:50
A file for that, like the crazy,

Dave Bullis 1:05:55
So Jeanne, where can people find you at?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:05:58
If you go to JeanneVB V, as in Victor B, as in boy .com There's a contact page there that has all the different ways you can stalk me at all different social media outlets, and my email address as well. And careful, careful, if you email me, you might end up on the show.

Dave Bullis 1:06:17
Yeah, don't suck and write something crazy, and I'm going to link to that in the show notes, and as well, I'm going to put a link to everyone to find her script mag articles, because as we've talked about, Jeannie writes The Balls of Steel, and she has a wonderful, wonderful articles in there that can help you out. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Jeannie, thanks again for coming on, and if you're anything, always give me a holler.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:43
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Dave.

Dave Bullis 1:06:45
Oh, my pleasure. All right, have a good day.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:48
You too.

Dave Bullis 1:06:49
Take care.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman 1:06:49
Bye,

Dave Bullis 1:06:50
Bye.

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BPS 483: The Filmmaker Who Turned Failure Into a Feature Film with Mark Phillips

August 6, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Some documentaries begin with years of research, development meetings, financing plans, and carefully structured production schedules. Others begin because someone gets locked out of work.

That’s exactly what happened to Mark Phillips, whose documentary The Walking Fool emerged from one of the simplest creative sparks imaginable. Working as a graphic designer in New York, Mark found himself standing outside an office one cold morning while waiting for a perpetually late boss to arrive. Instead of sitting around, he decided to take a walk. During that walk, he noticed details he had driven past for years without ever seeing. A plaque. A historic home. A forgotten piece of American history. That small discovery triggered a much larger question: what else do we miss when we move through life too quickly?

That curiosity eventually evolved into an audacious idea: walk across America. Not drive. Not cycle. Walk. One step at a time from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. At the time, Mark wasn’t even thinking about making a documentary. He viewed the journey more like an extended public-access television project, a giant adventure that would allow him to capture interesting moments and share them with a small audience. The goal wasn’t fame, distribution, or film festivals. It was simply the excitement of doing something unusual and documenting it along the way.

Like many first-time filmmakers, Mark approached the project with enthusiasm that far exceeded his preparation. His original attempt began in 2001 with limited planning, minimal resources, and an almost reckless willingness to figure things out as he went. Maps were printed, routes were considered, and supplies were packed, but within days he was already improvising. The reality of carrying equipment, managing weight, finding places to sleep, and navigating thousands of miles of unfamiliar territory quickly revealed how different execution is from imagination.

What makes the story particularly compelling is that the first attempt failed.

After making it all the way to South Dakota, roughly halfway across the country, Mark made the difficult decision to quit. The reasons were complicated. Money concerns. Loneliness. Fatigue. Boredom. The psychological burden of constantly documenting the experience while simultaneously trying to live it. He realized that walking across America and making entertainment out of the experience were often competing objectives. The more he focused on filming, the less connected he felt to the actual journey. Eventually, he boarded a bus home and accepted what felt like a devastating personal defeat.

For many filmmakers, that would have been the end of the story.

Instead, it became the beginning.

Over the next decade, the unfinished journey remained in the back of his mind. The experience haunted him. He found himself replaying the decision, questioning whether he had truly given everything he had. What started as regret slowly transformed into motivation. Eventually, after years of working, saving money, and rebuilding confidence, he decided to attempt the journey again. This time, the mission wasn’t about proving anything to other people. It was about finishing something he needed to finish for himself.

One of the most valuable filmmaking lessons in the conversation involves audience building. Mark openly acknowledges that if modern social media platforms had existed during his first attempt, the project might have evolved very differently. He stresses the importance of communicating with audiences throughout production rather than waiting until the film is complete. By sharing updates, involving supporters, and building a community around the subject matter itself, filmmakers can create an audience long before release. In today’s independent filmmaking landscape, that relationship with viewers can be just as important as the finished film.

The conversation also provides a fascinating look at documentary storytelling. Unlike narrative films, documentaries often discover their structure in the editing room. Mark discusses the challenge of transforming years of footage into a coherent narrative while preserving the emotional truth of the experience. Every creative decision becomes a balancing act between entertainment and authenticity. Some of the most powerful moments were never perfectly captured on camera. Others existed only as audio recordings or memories. The challenge wasn’t simply documenting reality—it was finding the story hidden within it.

Perhaps the most inspiring aspect of Mark’s journey is its reminder that failure doesn’t always mean the story is over. In filmmaking, projects collapse. Funding disappears. Scripts stall. Productions fail. But sometimes unfinished work has a way of calling creators back. What matters isn’t avoiding failure. What matters is deciding whether the story is important enough to continue despite it.

For Mark, the answer was yes.

One step at a time.

One mile at a time.

One unfinished dream finally completed.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:46
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
With me today is is Mark Phillips. Mark Phillips is the star and director of the Walking Fool documentary, where he attempts to actually walk from New York all the way across the country to California. Mark, how are you?

Mark Phillips 2:09
I'm doing fabulous. How are you doing, Dave?

Dave Bullis 2:12
Pretty good, thanks. Pretty good. So, Mark, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Mark Phillips 2:18
Well, I'm from the New York City area all my life, and I was one of those people that was sort of, you know, always interested in acting, never really pursued it actively. So I did what most people did, just got a job working in the office in front of a computer, where I could just sort of just sort of think about dreaming of being a performer on stage, and I did that for about 10 years, and finally it sort of kind of snapped, and I thought about doing something different, and that's sort of how we evolved into what I'm doing now in the documentary, is walking across the country.

Dave Bullis 3:00
So, Mark, how long have you been a filmmaker for?

Mark Phillips 3:02
Well, I was back, goes back to high school, I was sort of, you know, I got a, I remember getting a video camera, one of those big VHS things, you know, top-loading VHS things was probably about 20 pounds for Christmas, and just started making little, you know, short films, and back in the 90s, that evolved before YouTube, that evolved into what was known as a public access show, which is, you know, all the cable networks, for those who might not know, those cable networks had to have these public access stations where people were allowed to put their own local content on there, so that kind of evolved, the it gave me an outlet, also for that actor in me to sort of perform and be silly,

Dave Bullis 3:48
You know. It's funny that you mentioned that, because I don't think there's any more public access shows around.

Mark Phillips 3:53
Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I'm, I mean, I'm in New York, and I don't have cable anymore, so, but I'm assuming they still exist, because it was actually written in as a law, I believe, when cable stations started developing, people were, you know, saying, "Well, we don't want to have you guys digging holes and putting all this power lines and all that. So they made a compromise saying, "Well, we'll allow you to put up your little, you know, your little shows and your little public community shows in exchange for that. So they may still be built into it, but no one probably really watches them.

Dave Bullis 4:24
Yeah, that could be the case, because I actually, I do work for local township, and Verizon and Comcast actually helped foot the bill for like upgrades and stuff.

Mark Phillips 4:34
Oh yeah,

Dave Bullis 4:35
So that way, yeah, so that way we can like build new stuff, but so, so work when you started making this documentary, Walking Four, what job were you working at when you decided to make this to make Walking Four?

Mark Phillips 4:48
Yeah, I was working in graphic design, so I was originally working at Macy's, and then I started working then for one of the VPs at Macy's. Just left and start her own design firm, so I just basically worked with her, and that's in sort of Westchester County, which is just north of New York City. So I was kind of doing the reverse commute, I was sort of going up into sort of the suburbs to work in a day, and it was actually when I was working there that I came up with the idea of walking across the country because one of the, one of the bosses, who was a notorious alcoholic, was late to work one morning, so I was locked out of the building and had no way of getting in, so when I called him, he's like, "Oh, I'll be there in 10 minutes. Of course, he lived on Long Island, which is about an hour and a half away, so I knew he wasn't gonna be there too quickly. So, instead of like, sort of, it was like October, so it was getting kind of cold, and I was like, "Well, I don't want to just sort of sit on the sidewalk, I'll just go for a little walk. And on that little walk around the town, I sort of discovered things that I never really had the chance to look at. It was like this house, it was on the main thoroughfare that I've driven by many times, but never, you know, looked at too closely. When I got close to it, I noticed that it was actually the home of Madam CJ Walker, who was the first African American woman millionaire, and that was her first mansion. So it was basically the first black woman's mansion in America, and I've been driving by, and if I didn't walk by, I never would have noticed that plaque and figured out what it was, and just sort of, it sort of sparked that excitement of, like, oh, you know, when you're really walking, it's the macrocosm becomes a microcosm, you really get to find the details, and in a sort of, sort of inspired me to say, well, you know, I just, just, just keep on doing this, and just go from one town to the other, and then one state to the other, and ad infinitum.

Dave Bullis 6:48
So, when you, when you decide to do this, Mark, did you tell anybody about it?

Mark Phillips 6:53
Yeah, well, the story is that I actually, this is going back to the year 2000 and and I told lots of people about it, I was so excited, but I was also wary that people were going to my mom, I thought my mom for sure was going to say, Mark, now this is just not very reasonable, I think she's gonna offer something a little bit more reasonable, like why don't you just go for a walk, you know, to Long Island, Long Island. How about that? But she was actually very enthusiastic, and she, she embraced it pretty wholeheartedly. So, and pretty much I was kind of surprised, because almost everyone was enthusiastic. I think there was a few people that were a little, you know, suspicious I was going to make it, and but almost everyone said go ahead and do, which is actually a little disturbing, because I was hoping for a few like naysayers, because I think it motivates you to sort of like prove people wrong, kind of.

Dave Bullis 7:53
So, so did you have a lot of naysayers at all, or was there just mainly everyone was very supportive?

Mark Phillips 7:58
I think almost everyone was supportive. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think, I mean, I had a.. I had one friend who, you know, I remember we were sort of working on the route I was going to take, and when I said, okay, you know, I think I think this is the route I should take after I go to Chicago, and as soon as I said Chicago, he gave me a look like, come on, you're not going to make it to Chicago, it wasn't really him being a naysayers, just him saying, being a realist, saying you're not gonna, and then he actually said, I'll get, you know, I tell you, I'll give you 500 bucks if you make it to Chicago. So that was probably the most sort of kind of like challenge that I got, but I remember my dad actually said he was like, actually jealous, he's like, ah, wish I could do that too, like, oh, Dad, sure,

Dave Bullis 8:40
Did you ever tell that alcoholic boss that did you ever say to him, 'Thank you, because for you being an alcoholic, I had this idea for this journey.

Mark Phillips 8:49
No, I haven't done that, but though that might be part of the documentary, because part of the documentary, which I'm working on now, all the footage has been shot on the road, but I'm interviewing other people walked across the country, and I want to interview other family and friends to sort of just paint a sort of, you know, just get a general picture. And I thought about maybe I should interview him, but I don't know if I would necessarily want.. I don't know if he's gonna want to be portrayed as the alcoholic employee slash motivator, so I don't know. So,

Dave Bullis 9:20
So when you did go across the country, how much before you went, though, how much planning actually went into you walking across the country? Did you map out each city you wanted to visit?

Mark Phillips 9:31
Yeah, and actually, again, maybe to clarify for the audience that I actually did do it twice, I back in 2001 I attempted and I failed. And then 10 years later, I built up the courage to finally do it again, and I started from scratch, and I made it across. So on the first one I immediately decided not to do very much planning at all, because I was already dubbing myself the walking fool, and part of that, I thought part of the charm was sort to sort of kind of go in head first and try to figure it out along the way, I did do a little bit, you know, planning. I sort of like back then there was no Google Maps for those MapQuest, so I was sort of mapping it out, printing out all the maps, but then by day two of my walk, I ended up throwing them all out because it was too heavy. I'm like, oh, this, I don't need this, so I, and at that point, I think I was about two days into the walk, I was already pretty much sure I wasn't going to make it, so I, the idea of me having maps of, you know, South Dakota seemed kind of absurd, so I immediately just sort of tossed all those, but I mean, you know, you do plan, and actually my friend, who did the challenge to get to Chicago, he, he was definitely a firm, he did a lot of camping and hiking, and so he was definitely a firm believer of, like, Mark, once you prepare a little bit, once you go for a little test run or something, and I was like, I put on the backpack once, I'm like, okay, this is good, I walked around the city for about, you know, an hour, I'm like, "Oh, this is good. And then it changed very much on the day one of the first walk, because all of a sudden you're putting in more stuff in your pack than you thought you're going to put in, because you're like, "Oh, wait, I need this, oh, I need that. And then all of a sudden you got like an extra 10 pounds on your back that you weren't expecting. So it was definitely a rude awakening,

Dave Bullis 11:39
And you did have that camera you got for Christmas, right? That's how you recorded this with

Mark Phillips 11:43
No, actually, that the old VHS that went to the electronic graveyard by that point, but it was when it was right at the beginning of sort of the mini DV tapes that were coming out, I think in the thing around 1999 is when they started coming out with them, so it was kind of like a high eight camera, so it was small and compact, but still definitely much bigger than the cameras are today, and it used these little miniature tapes, which were digital tapes that you could sort of actually, in theory, transfer the digital material straight onto your computer, so it was technology wise it's kind of funny how technology is changing so rapidly in the film industry right now, but back then it was like kind of a big deal to have like this kind of small and decent quality camera that you could bring on a trip.

Dave Bullis 12:34
Okay, that's, you know, that's because when I was reading about the documentary at something, I was wondering, because I said, man, if he had to carry that thing around by the, by, I mean, after he got into, you know, Pennsylvania, he probably just wanted to throw into the river, because those, those big heavy VHS top loading, top loading on cameras,

Mark Phillips 12:52
Right! Yeah, no, fortunately, technology wise, by that point we did make a slight advancement, and, but it was in that period, like I said, where it wasn't very common, you know. It was before smartphones, obviously, and before video was easily compressed onto a small little device or a disc. So it was really the idea of sort of bringing a camera back in 2001 was kind of a novel idea, and I heard of other people have walked across the country, but no one at that point had filmed it, as far as I knew.

Dave Bullis 13:24
So, just to ask, right now, Walking Fool is your first documentary. Is there any.. I mean, this is before crowdfunding and everything, even before you know social media got big, because this is still 2000 Is there anything that you want to, like, recommend to, like, filmmakers, first-time filmmakers who are making their maybe their documentary or even their first feature film project or short. Is there anything you want to share with them that you've learned at this point?

Mark Phillips 13:50
You mean in sort of relationship with your audience? I mean,

Dave Bullis 13:53
Yeah, sir. Because if you, you with this project, yours, is there anything? Because I mean, I'm just stopping right now and just, you know, before we get onto the journey, is there anything that you actually learned about filmmaking that you wanted to share? This is your first documentary.

Mark Phillips 14:08
Yeah, I mean, what's interesting also is, is it.. I think I mentioned this to you earlier, before the show, is that I, when I did this, I wasn't intending it to be a documentary, so it's difficult to sort of get that my perspective of how I was approaching it. I was approaching it as a public access show, kind of like a web series, if you will, without really much intention of a mass audience. And I'm definitely learning more now as I'm sort of completing the project. It's just changed very dramatically, where you definitely want to constantly be communicating with your audience and trying to get your audience as involved as possible. We could, it was great that we have, I mean, if I had Twitter on my first walk, we've been, it would have been a perfect venue to sort of give updates of my walk, and then you know, build a following. There, so then when you're ready to sort of do either, you know, campaign, you know, to raise money, or if you're trying to do screenings, you already have your audience, because they're interested in the project itself, the subject matter itself. So I think that's the key is to sort of find your audience, or just have an interest in that, and not necessarily maybe in films, but just like what you're, what you're interested in, and what the documentary is about.

Dave Bullis 15:26
Okay, good points. And so, to go back to your first journey, you know, it's 2000 and you're about to start your first journey. So, take us back to that first day. You know, where did you start your journey? And also, you know, what was going through your mind when you first started?

Mark Phillips 15:42
Yeah, I started in New Jersey, and anyone who is from the New York area knows that's the best place to start any journey. No, so it was.. it was mainly because of conveniences, like if I wanted to start in New York, I wanted to start with the Atlantic Ocean, putting your hands on the Atlantic Ocean was sort of the, you know, ocean to ocean was the main parameters of the walk, so if I had to start in New York, I would have had to start way into Brooklyn Lake Coney Island, would have taken me like two days just to get out of, you know, the New York City area, so I figured, well, let's do a shortcut, let's start in New Jersey, I had a bunch of, so I took a ferry with a bunch of friends and family. We, they came over to Sandy Hook, New Jersey, which is just North Shore, and it was, it was great, because you know, it's kind of like you sort of felt like a celebrity for a brief moment there. And then 10 minutes later, on my walk, I'm by myself, I'm like, oh boy, I am really doing this. It's just like it seemed kind of surreal, where you're like, it was like a joke before, and now it's like, okay, now it's I'm really doing it, and I'm like, am I really going to be doing this for the next, you know, six to nine months of my life? It's like it weighs on you really quickly, but it doesn't hit you until you're actually making those first steps,

Dave Bullis 17:02
And then when you first started, was there anybody in particular, like when you were traveling, that you specifically wanted to meet, or did you just want to go town to town, and whoever I meet is that's who will be in the documentary.

Mark Phillips 17:15
Yeah, I mean, again, it's like I was approaching it sort of as, you know, oh, I'm just gonna put together some goofy, you know, fun, you know, video of me walking, and I mean, I used to enjoy just videotaping anything. If I was, like, had a, you know, trip, you know, to the museum, I'd film it and make it into a little goofy, you know, five minute video. So I was sort of just seeing this, like, oh, it's the same thing I've been doing, you know, kind of for the last 10 years of my life, but now you know, times 100 or whatever. So I didn't really have any real goals of meeting anybody. It was just more like I just wanted to sort of go on an adventure and just be able to share it in a humorous way with maybe only a small audience, but you know, hopefully try to, you know, have my pain and suffering be the comical fodder for somebody else,

Dave Bullis 18:04
So in the first trip you, you actually made it all the way to South Dakota. Yeah, and that's where you quit. Now that's not a spoiler for anybody listening, it's not a spoiler or anything that's on Mark's blog, but you actually quit in South Dakota. Was it just too much at the first time, and you just said I can't take this anymore, or

Mark Phillips 18:24
Yeah, it's one of those things. It's one of those questions that people ask me, and it's one of those.. it's a difficult question to answer, because it's hard to know what the factors are. It's.. I mean, you can name the things like.. okay, yeah.. I mean, I was. I was getting lonely, I was getting bored. I was actually running out of money, so it was, you know, the mosquitoes were bothering me. So, there's a lot of things that, you know, we're sort of building up, building up, and you do become reflective, and you're like, okay, why am I doing this? And, like, I said, my original approach was just like, okay, I want to go on an adventure and film it and make it, you know, funny for people, and I sort of felt like, well, I did accomplish that. I think I've, you know, at back then we had, you know, blogs, so they're like Twitter, but longer, and so I mean, we, so my friend was doing a blog, so I felt like, okay, I got it, you know, a bunch of people, they enjoyed it, but part of it also then got to a point where I was like, I didn't like the idea of people knowing what I was doing, is sort of, they were conflicting with each other. The walk itself is a very personal, private kind of thing, in a sense, but then also, you know, you want to turn it into something that's, you know, public and entertaining, but they don't really work well together, so when you're walking, when you're really embracing the walk, you don't really want to feel, you don't want to feel about how am I going to do a joke, how am I going to get this camera angle, should I film this thing, you know, all these sort of logistical things to make a TV show or eventually a documentary. You don't think about those when you're walking, so I think at that point I was like I was too focused on the other thing, and I wasn't focused enough on me and a personal journey, so it kind of made sense at that point for me just to go back home.

Dave Bullis 20:23
And how did you get home?

Mark Phillips 20:26
I walked home. Oh no, wait a minute. No, actually I took a bus, and there's probably nothing more depressing than taking a bus in general, and when you're taking a Greyhound bus after deciding to quit, you know, a magnificent sort of massive undertaking, it's, it's, it's, you know, deeply, you know, saddening, but it was, it was kind of, it was, I had to make that decision in that point, because it was, as I sort of saw it, as the point of no return, it was the South Dakota border, was kind of the halfway point in the walk. I always tell people, if you take an atlas, United States, and open it up, it's usually the crease is right about where I quit. So it was kind of, I had to make that decision at that point, and I knew that it was either continue all the way to the Pacific Ocean or go home, so I went home.

Dave Bullis 21:23
So then at that point, you know, you know, years later, you fast forward to years later, you sort of feel like the plan, do this again.

Mark Phillips 21:31
Yeah, it's one of those things that I sort of was enjoying, you know, the excitement of the travel, but you know, telling people about it was, it was a great conversation piece, but in the back of my head it was, it was, it was always, it started praying in my mind, you know, almost immediately I started having those anxiety dreams, similar to like when you're back in high school and you're late for that, you know, you didn't study for the exam or something, I had the things where I would be all of a sudden back walking across the country in some distant state like Wyoming, and I would be all of a sudden I would accidentally get on a train back home, and I'd be like, "Oh no, I ruined it again. So it was one of these things, just like, "Oh, I got to get this done, because I have to do it for myself.

Dave Bullis 22:18
Did you have a day job at this time too?

Mark Phillips 22:20
Yeah, I went there. I went back to the same job I had before I did my walk, and then it continued on. I'm in graphic design, moved around from one job to the other. I fortunately got into working for an ad agency, a decent ad agency that paid very well. So, part of the inspiration was that I was able to save up a lot of money, or a decent amount of money, so that was kind of key. I knew that if I was gonna do the walk again, that I wanted to build up a bigger nest egg, just to have a bigger safety net, and in case I just wouldn't.. I didn't have to worry about that's one thing I didn't want to worry about, like, oh, can I afford this hotel? Like, if you're going crazy, like I want to take a break for two days. Can I afford this hotel? Yes, you don't want to worry about that.

Dave Bullis 23:06
So, just have cash and no credit cards?

Mark Phillips 23:08
No, I basically had.. yeah, I carried $10,000 and no brilliant move. It's funny people ask that question. I always think.. I always think the answer is obvious. I just had a debit card, so I just saved it up, put it in my checking account, and just sort of, you know, unfortunately, in America now you can find it, you know, an ATM machine pretty much anywhere, and even McDonald's, they'll have a usually an ATM machine there. So I was just, you know, take out money as you needed it, and yeah, and sometimes you're lucky if you were low on cash, you, I looked pathetic enough that you just sort of sat in front of a store, someone probably eventually give you money, so that helped too,

Dave Bullis 23:54
Because you know, I know it does seem like an obvious question, but when I was thinking, when I was reading about the documentary, I'm thinking, what if he did just take a wad of cash around? What if we just threw caution to the wind and just decided to walk around with, like, you know, 15k

Mark Phillips 24:09
Yeah, that would probably be impractical on many levels. One being, you know, being robbed, and then two, the weight, just like, oh, paper, you're always thinking about poundage and ounces, you're like, oh, I mean, you really make it, really makes a big difference between one tent and another tent. It's like a medical, well, this tent is like $100 more, but it's three ounces lighter. You're gonna go over that one at three ounces lighter, because every little bit helps.

Dave Bullis 24:35
So, when did you officially start the second journey? What, what year was that?

Mark Phillips 24:42
Well, I'm not, I'm not revealing the year only for dramatic purposes on the documentary, but we'll say it was, it was approximately, you know, it was a few years ago, so it was about 10 years after the first one.

Dave Bullis 24:55
Okay, so and then, you know, did you also just. You had to quit that job, and then obviously you started across the country. So, what were, without giving away too much, what were some of the craziest stories you have from filming?

Mark Phillips 25:10
Well, certainly, and yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, it's like, oh, you think about all that, all the different crazy things, like every day is like a crazy day, because what's not quite the answer, what you're looking for, but one interesting thing is that when you're walking, time moves extremely slow, so when you are thinking back of what happened earlier that same day, it feels like it was several days ago. It really, it boggles the mind sometimes. You're like, oh, when I did that on Tuesday or Wednesday, I'm like, no, wait, that was this morning, so all the sort of the craziness gets sort of jammed in there, and like I said, it's like a microcosm, so every little bit becomes magnified in your mind, but I got a shotgun pulled on me in West Virginia, so that was crazy and rather unnerving.

Dave Bullis 26:05
Well, you know, I was actually just watching a documentary about West Virginia too.

Mark Phillips 26:08
Yeah, was it a positive or was it a negative?

Dave Bullis 26:11
Negative, very negative. And it was actually called the well, it wasn't, it wasn't about West Virginia per se, but it was about the people of West Virginia, and you know, just about the mining operation there, and, and some of the locals, so I can totally believe, as they're seeing that document, I can totally believe you getting a shotgun pulled on you in West Virginia.

Mark Phillips 26:31
Yeah, I don't want to cast dispersions upon the, the good folks at West Virginia, but

Dave Bullis 26:35
It's all in good, yeah, obviously, you know, I'm just kidding, but

Mark Phillips 26:38
Yeah, no, but, but I mean, one thing I did notice in West Virginia, I mean, when you're walking, one of the keys is you got to find a place to camp out, and so you got to find that right sweet spot where it's like a patch of woods, you're sort of hidden, but also you don't want to be like obviously on someone's land, you know, because you know, I mean, you're going to be trespassing, but you really just don't want to be invasive in your trespassing, so you try to find that nice sort of sweet piece of land that's hidden, but also a nice buffer from anyone's, you know, sort of obvious home, and where they could see you. But at West Virginia, I noticed that it was very difficult to find any spot that wasn't somehow occupied with some sort of hovel structure, like West Virginia, like land, I don't know, just seem to be a lot of sort of squatters on the land, where you think, oh, that's gonna be perfect on camp right here, and obviously you see a little box made out of, like, you know, piece of pieces of sheet metal, and, and, like, you know, a barrel with a fire going there, like, okay, I guess that's some moonshiners, you know, residents there, or something, so it's a very, it's a very interesting, different kind of mentality there, and I think they're certainly a little bit more wary of sort of strangers coming into their area,

Dave Bullis 27:57
I mean, that is, that is, you know, pretty scary that I have a shotgun pulled on you, but again, that you know, thanks for sharing it with us. I want to give too much away. If there was some kind of, you know, you know, incredibly crazy story, because documentaries coming out, but we'll get to that soon. But when the document is coming out, but

Mark Phillips 28:13
Right, yeah, no, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, also part of the fun is, I mean, there's also some stories that, you know, which is were crazy, but you didn't, didn't capture on video, so that's also that's part of it too. So, I mean, I did get the, again, goes with sort of the filmmaking, and I did happen to get the audio of the guy when he pulled the shotgun, but I didn't get the video of it, so it's one of those things, it's like you don't know how that's going to work out when it comes to the final, you know, the final cut of the film, whether even to use it or not, because if you don't have the video, I mean, if you don't have the, you know, it's just a shot of the ground basically, but there's also a certain charm, and I think to sometimes in a documentary we don't have that perfect shot, I'm always a little bit suspicious of those documentaries that has nothing but beautiful shots, so I think that's something to go with as well.

Dave Bullis 29:06
Yeah, you can always just superimpose the text on the on the the on the shot too, as well. So, if you have a shot pointing to the ground, I've seen that before too. We know where they, yeah, they don't have the perfect shot, so they just superimpose the audio just in case.

Mark Phillips 29:19
Yeah, I'm actually, and I'm toying with the idea, because I do - I'm working with an animator to, to basically do graphics of the map, more or less, to show the progress, because I find it's very important to sort of get a bird's eye view of like the progress you're making, but I'm also toying with the idea of some of these moments that weren't captured on film sort of do a little animated little sequence of them, especially if I have the audio of it, might be kind of entertaining to actually do a little cartoon with the actual audio, but that's one of those things that you sort of develop when it gets closer to the final edit.

Dave Bullis 30:07
Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, and yeah, I wish you the best, but animation stuff. I know that can be tricky sometimes, just to find, you know, the right animator and everything.

Mark Phillips 30:16
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, I have a friend who, well, sort of a friend of a friend, who's an.. I think he's a fantastic editor, but yeah, it's also a matter of, like, you know, when you're doing a low, ultra low budget, you know, documentary, it's like you want to, you want to spend, you want to make the best film you can, but also you want to know where to spend your money, your priorities of where you need to spend the money first,

Dave Bullis 30:38
Exactly, and I think that's another, you know, a trait that of having a good producer comes in, even for, you know, documentary or feature film, what have you, is just knowing how to allocate budgets properly.

Mark Phillips 30:49
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 30:49
That's a skill on itself.

Mark Phillips 30:51
Yeah, absolutely. And I, it's certainly one of those ones, as you know, as a director, you don't want to think about as much, because you, you want to think more about how can I, you know, how can I make this a great, entertaining film that's going to maybe have some meaning to an audience out there, and it's hard to sort of put on the different hats, and that's why I agree it's good to have a producer that has the enthusiasm, but also has the ability to be able to pull away and say, listen, we can't do that, you know, we can do this, you know.

Dave Bullis 31:21
Yeah, exactly. So, Mark, do you want to take some questions right now from the audience?

Mark Phillips 31:27
Sure.

Dave Bullis 31:27
From our Twitter audience,

Mark Phillips 31:29
Sure.

Dave Bullis 31:30
The first question I have, and this comes from at Emily Russell Act, is: Where is the weirdest place you ever pooped any lot lizard story experiences.

Mark Phillips 31:43
Okay, I don't understand what the second one means.

Dave Bullis 31:46
I don't know what that means either.

Mark Phillips 31:48
Okay, I know what the first one means. Yeah, I mean it's funny on the first walk, I. I never. I never. should we use the the verb poop? I don't know,

Dave Bullis 32:05
Use whatever, whatever verb you'd like.

Mark Phillips 32:07
Okay, no holds barred. No, I mean, I never went to number two, never defecated, other than in public restrooms. But on the second walk, you sort of learned at some point you're like, okay, you know what, I remember the first time I actually shit in the woods and felt like a bear, and I was like, it was actually rather liberating, because you're like, okay, you know, this is, you know, this is part of what we're doing here, I mean, you know, I was always very careful of it not being on again someone's property, but I'm glad we were able to finally get that controversy out in the open.

Dave Bullis 32:46
It's surprise, is that surprising? That's the first question.

Mark Phillips 32:50
It is sort of the as an opener, yeah, that was more, that'd be a closer type of thing, you know, where I could just laugh it off. Anyway, it's great been talking to you.

Dave Bullis 33:00
See you later. No, the second question is this: is by Zia Taylor, and it at made underscore by underscoresia. How many pairs of shoes did it take to walk across the country?

Mark Phillips 33:15
That's funny. I mean, that's actually that was usually like when I was walking, and people had the questions while I was walking, that's the question they loved asking, how many pairs of shoes, and I always, for some reason, I don't know why I was resentful with that question, I'm like, who cares, you know, kind of was like, yeah, who cares about that, and I never had a good answer, because also you're always sort of rotating your shoes, so you're going kind of, you have your main pair, you have your, so your backup pair, but I would say I had probably three main pairs of shoes that sort of got me across, and then probably another two or three secondary pairs I sort of had as backup, and I can even, I can name it out of Merrill's, and and then I ended up with Columbia's, which were super cheap, actually. I got in Casper, Wyoming, and they got me all the way from Casper, Wyoming to, to the, to the sunny shores of California.

Dave Bullis 34:12
Oh, nice.

Mark Phillips 34:13
Yeah, as I mean, then they were pretty cheap, and I was like, I was kind of surprised they're getting, they're getting kind of, you know, getting kind of holy, and, or you know, torn apart by by that time, but they did make me there. They make, get me, get me there. So,

Dave Bullis 34:28
You know, it's interesting. If you, if I wonder, if you ever pitched this to a shoe company, I wonder what their response would have been. Like, if you pitch it to, like, a Nike or an Adidas.

Mark Phillips 34:36
Yeah, I mean, I'm still, I mean, of course, you're still open to that, because I mean, we're, you know, only just now, sort of, you know, entering post production, which can actually be very costly part.

Dave Bullis 34:46
Absolutely,

Mark Phillips 34:47
Especially on a documentary, because that's where kind of the storytelling is being developed. So we're still not, we're not close to the idea of finding any sort of, any sort of corporate sponsorship. Them, if they're willing, but I mean, again, talking to about being first-time directors, it's a little bit more difficult when you don't have a big resume under your belt to be able to get some of those corporate sponsors, but that's also the advantage of sometimes getting a good producer, because if you get a good producer, even if it's only a name that has a decent amount of credits. I definitely found, find that that will open up more doors, at least get you to talk to some people, and maybe pitch some ideas.

Dave Bullis 35:30
Oh yeah, absolutely. And the next question that comes in from at Google Bartel, which is any trouble from police or hostile locals,

Mark Phillips 35:42
Well, we talked about the hostile local. There were a couple other hostile locals, but actually not many hostile locals. It was mostly, but I did encounter the police. Believe it or not, pretty much every state you walk through you get stopped by the police. It just, it's they always claim that just because they give a lot of different reasons why sometimes they give false reasons, you know. Oh, we got a complaint about this or that, but a lot of times it's just strictly you look a little strange, they want to write your name down, and actually a couple of the encounters, encounters do make it into, well, should make it into the final cut of the film, so I did get a couple on video, so definitely, you know, I mean, I built a certain resentment towards our law enforcement people, but I mean, I sort of also understood, you know, why they were doing it, so half the time I was usually okay with it, the other half the times I was like, don't be bugging me, man, I'm just doing my thing,

Dave Bullis 36:44
So it was not gonna be like a police brutality incident in the documentary thing.

Mark Phillips 36:50
Yeah, y'all been brutalizing me ever since Dobbs. Sorry, it's a David Cross thing. Yeah, y'all been brutalizing me. So I mean, but it is, I mean, it does sort of ruin the flow sometimes. Again, if it's the timing is off, you're like, wow, it's.. it also sort of is a good, interesting comment about how things change sometimes from one county to the other. When I was counting from the other, because I was in Kentucky, I was in this one county, went to this one town, everyone was wonderful. There was this.. I was gonna stay in this town for like just a few minutes, just to pick up a package at the post office, but all the people were amazing, they were just like so enthusiastic, they had a great sense of humor, you know, they understood, you know, what my walk was about, it was just like this instantaneous like understanding, and then you go over just a county line, and the next thing you know, you're getting called on by the police, by you know, a nosy neighbor or something, and you're getting this sort of real sort of negative attitude. So I'm just a matter of a couple miles makes a difference in America, which is very unexpected.

Dave Bullis 37:54
Yeah, you know, just as a side, and I think a lot of people in front of European listeners, so you know, I always say this is that America really is like 50 different mini countries, because really I've been all over this country too, and you, you know, just going from state to state, you know, not only does each state they make up its own laws, but you know also you find like different customs, different locals, I mean, really it just, it is amazing how different this country is.

Mark Phillips 38:20
Right, and I always sort of understood that, and then, but it was very fascinating when you discover how it works on even on a smaller level. Just from going from one township to the next township can make a difference too. And it's like you notice there's certain rivalries going on between these towns, like that's a sort of, it's a weird, like understated thing, where like they won't even acknowledge the next town over. I'm like, oh, how far is it to Lewisburg? They're like, I've never heard of Louisburg, and I'm like, it's the next town over. Well, I don't know anything about that. So, it's like, okay, so you.. it's.. it's very.. people are very.. and on that, what is the sort of nationalism on a very local level? So, I don't know, townshipism.

Dave Bullis 39:00
So, our next question is, what was the biggest pain you experienced along the way, mental or physical, and specific incidents, please? And that was from at the, I think, to the Hetherington, I'm sorry, a Hetherington. So again, to reiterate that, that was what was the biggest pain you experienced along the way, mental, physical, and specific incidents, please.

Mark Phillips 39:21
That's now we're getting, now we're getting into deep sadness.

Dave Bullis 39:27
Want me, you want me to come back to that one?

Mark Phillips 39:29
Yeah, maybe we can come back to that one.

Dave Bullis 39:30
Okay, now I have about two or three more questions about you, you know, dropping a deuce or your bathroom habits.

Mark Phillips 39:37
Okay,

Dave Bullis 39:37
Want me to skip those?

Mark Phillips 39:39
Yeah, well, we will. I'll tell one little mini story of actually, there's not much mini story. I just have actually two words for you: Taco Bell. We'll leave it at that. So that caused that, caused a couple close calls, if you will and then, and then the solution usually is a bridge, so going underneath the bridge is sort of your kind of is like a little safe haven, which actually it continues on, obviously, not just, you know, dropping a deuce. It's also it applies to sometimes when it's raining and you want to escape the rain, or you want a place to camp out. If you can't find a place, a lot of times just going underneath a bridge, I found a certain amount of comfort, and that's something I discovered more on the second walk. The first walk, I didn't really do that very much, but on the second walk I sort of started embracing the bridge concept, and maybe I was more hobo or at that point, but you found a certain comfort and you sort of got used to that sound, that whirring sound of the car is going over the bridge above you, you sort of kind of, that was almost like a lullaby, I would send you to sleep.

Dave Bullis 41:03
So, okay, so your advice was, you know, Taco Bell, which is, you know, give run for the border, and then bridges,

Mark Phillips 41:09
Yeah. Well, yeah, I did talk about run for the bridge border, you know, whatever. So that's that's usually what you have to do if you eat Taco Bell. So I would highly recommend not eating Taco Bell when you're walking across the country, but to each their own,

Dave Bullis 41:24
And Cool Saint three is where did, where in the hell did you charge your phone?

Mark Phillips 41:31
Actually, it goes back a lot to the fast food sort of world. A lot of fast food restaurants, and McDonald's was actually one of my favorite places to go, for multiple reasons. One was cheap food. Two was a lot of times they would have an outlet where you could charge your phone and my camera batteries. I had to, you know, I had to charge my battery, the batteries of my camera as well. And it was usually run by, you know, a bunch of teenage kids that didn't really care that much, so you could sort of sit there if you wanted to for hours and hours, and no one would ever, you know, give you a hard time. So those were also really nice places to sort of go. It was kind of like your little pit stop, where you can sort of regroup and do a little quick, I don't know, you would call it a little quick mini mini bath in the bathroom, and get ready for your next leg of the walk.

Dave Bullis 42:26
That's cool. At least you know that's always helpful when you find a group of kids who are just like, yeah, you know, we're not going to take this too seriously.

Mark Phillips 42:33
Yeah, no, and even the adults didn't. I mean, so I mean, I spent a lot of times in like fast food places, and I remember actually I was at a subway and the I was like I was in the corner and I was like looking for something, so I was like pulling everything out of my bag, it was just like I had like you know dirty socks, I had just like you know I had cords for my, you know, my camera all you know all over the place, I'm like looking for them in the manager sort of steps up and it's like hi what's going on and I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get in trouble, I'm gonna get hassled, and he's like, I'm walking across the country, and I'm looking for my battery, and it's like, oh my god, that's so great, and so let me give you some coupons for some free sandwiches you can use along the way, and he was like, so excited, so you, you find most people are so excited about when you tell them what you're doing, because two things: one, it's a great adventure, but also I think they appreciate your exploration of our country, because they just know, hey, this is someone who's taking the time to not just know about Chicago and New York and LA, and you know, maybe Dallas, or whatever, you know, it's someone who's like learning all the little bits and pieces of America. So, I think a lot of people really appreciate that.

Dave Bullis 43:49
Yeah, definitely, I agree with that. So, that is the end of the questions, because a lot of the questions mark are just repeats of what we've already been over, and again, there's a lot of guys seem to want to really know what you did with it for bathroom wise, for

Mark Phillips 44:03
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 44:04
Seems to be like number one question.

Mark Phillips 44:06
It's a number one question about number two. So, yeah, I know it's funny because it does seem like, again, one of those kind of obvious questions. It's like, well, you know, you were in college at one point, at least you know how to do, you know how to do number one, so I'm surprised that people are asking about that, but you know it's a..

Dave Bullis 44:26
I think someone's hoping you're just gonna say, like, yeah, I just threw crap right in the middle of a street, that's what someone's hoping out there,

Mark Phillips 44:34
Maybe that's what they're hoping, but I, not to disappoint, but I did feel like taking a dump in the middle of Las Vegas when I was in there, so only because it's just, it's not a town you want to necessarily walk through, it's not there's some towns are definitely more geared towards walking, and Las Vegas is not one of the ones that sort of, it doesn't really open. In its arms, to you know, to walk as well, it wasn't terrible, but just, it just, you just felt it just didn't feel right, you didn't, you didn't quite mesh in there quite well, which is

Dave Bullis 45:09
Gambling away a college fund or anything.

Mark Phillips 45:11
Yeah, exactly. I wasn't, you know, and it was interesting, but one point I was walking, you know, I had the whole stick and walking through there, and someone just, I definitely got a few stares, and actually, I remember it reminds me when I was walking through New Jersey, I was like, just in Newark, New Jersey, just outside of Newark, New Jersey, walking with a stick, and this big black dude in a football jersey was walking, you know, coming towards me, and he just pointed me and goes mountain man, and just kept on walking, so I was like, hey, you know, again, it was, that was things like that, actually boost your, your energy, because it's just like it's just somewhat acknowledging that you're doing something, and it's like a little moment that you just share with somebody, it's kind of exciting and rewarding,

Dave Bullis 45:57
And as we were talking about before, before the show actually started, you actually were on weeding it on, but you actually tried to get on The Price Is Right, correct.

Mark Phillips 46:07
Yeah, yeah, I was hoping I was hoping that, you know, some people, because actually one time I remember seeing On The Price is Right, someone said I drove 2000 miles to be on The Price Is Right, so I thought, well, I walked 4000 it's like, how could that, how could I not get picked on there? So it's one of those things where you know you're dealing with TV producers and you never know what's going through their minds, and and it's just one of those things that you just are, you hope, hope you're gonna get some excitement, and I got, you know, I got a lot of, definitely a lot of people that were interested in it, so I was like, a lot of times the host of the show was very interested in it, but the producers were never so keen to put anything on. I don't know exactly why, but it's one of those things where it's like a thing, it's just sort of a creative sort of rivalry going on there a little bit.

Dave Bullis 46:55
Yeah, again, yeah, you never know if those TV producers, you know what they were thinking at the moment, and so

Mark Phillips 47:02
Because Bonnie Hunt, I was in the audience of Bonnie Hunt when she had her daytime show, and she, you know, she did a little Q&A, and she found out that I was walking, she was like, "Oh my god, you got to get on the show, we got to put you on the show. So then I went and I talked to one of the producers, and then she, it was like a junior producer, she's like, "Okay, I'm gonna go and see what they think, and then she came back. When she came back, I saw that she had a Bonnie Hunt sweatshirt with her, so I'm like, uh, oh, that's a consolation prize. They're not gonna want to put me. Well, we can't wear the youth right now, but here's a sweater, so whatever. So, but yeah, I mean, that's also part of the perseverance you need in general, making a movie. I mean, talking about producing films, is you have to be confident in it, and you're gonna, you're gonna sometimes hit roadblocks for maybe no real apparent reason, so you have to just sort of keep on going and being confident that what you're producing, the, you know, content and the story you're telling is something that you think is worthwhile.

Dave Bullis 48:05
Yeah, absolutely. And now you have you and your producers are forming an India Gogo campaign for the end of the summer to cover post production, post production on the film, correct?

Mark Phillips 48:18
Yes, that's correct.

Dave Bullis 48:19
Do you have an exact date when there'll be India Gogo campaign supposed to start.

Mark Phillips 48:22
We don't have an exact date yet, because we're, we want to finish up our the interview, so we're trying to finish up sort of the production of filming these people, so but we are anticipating end of the summer, so we're thinking either end of August or beginning of September, so it's coming up soon, but we're gonna hopefully have a solid date by, you know, by July. We'll know when we're gonna be launching that.

Dave Bullis 48:48
All right. Excellent. Then, obviously, after that, you'll know exactly when the film's gonna be released.

Mark Phillips 48:52
Yeah, I mean, you know, certainly then we'll, I mean, we have a timetable, but again, when it comes to the editing, especially on a documentary, you never know exactly, you know, where it's going to be. I mean, there's a great documentary called Cutie and the Boxer, which was nominated for an Academy Award last year, and they, they spent almost, I think they spent almost a year editing. They first started off, you know, doing it for seven months, they thought they were ready, but then they all of a sudden got some new footage that they weren't expecting to get, and then it sort of just changed the editing process again for another three months, so that's the one scary thing. One good thing about my walk is that there's a sort of temporal story there where we are sort of going from one end to the other, you know, of the country, so you can't really mix around with the time, with you know, the narrative of the time, you can't really jump from California to back to Pennsylvania, doesn't really make much sense in most instances, so hopefully it will streamline the editing process, but we are looking for 2000 beginning 2015 to start shopping around with some festivals and look for a distributor.

Dave Bullis 50:20
All right, excellent, and you know, when everything's up, whenever your crowdfunding campaign up, let me know, and I'll definitely tweet it out for you.

Mark Phillips 50:26
Oh, yeah, I'd appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, it's like you're hoping, you know, you're hoping that you have an interesting enough story that at least bring people to the Indiegogo campaign page and sort of at least check it out, and then hopefully from that get enthusiastic to maybe drop a bill or two,

Dave Bullis 50:45
Yeah, yeah, you never know, and you know, maybe even by then one of those shoe companies might even hear about this project, be like, "Hey, yeah, that guy walked our country with our shoes,

Mark Phillips 50:55
Yeah, and what's also great is when you're walking, you have all the little things that you might be able to, which were also very handy, like Mountain Dew was handy too. So I drank a lot of Mountain Dew, so I'm always looking towards maybe getting on sponsorship from that,

Dave Bullis 51:10
And it can't hurt, because a lot of some of these companies, they're always looking for a new way to just get sponsorship out there, marketing out there, and even something organic like that would be beneficial,

Mark Phillips 51:21
Yeah. And, as a little teaser, I do have a video, a short video, which is basically a montage of me drinking Mountain Dew across the country, so it's kind of a time lapse thing, like, as you've probably seen before, but instead it's me guzzling Mountain Dew across the country. So, look forward to that. It's going to be hopefully I'm going to try to release that leading up to the Indiegogo campaign, get a little an interest from there.

Dave Bullis 51:47
And I wish you the best, Mark. And you know, I thank you very much for coming on the show. Is in closing, is there anything that you'd like to mention, or that I haven't gone over, we haven't talked about already?

Mark Phillips 51:57
Well, also, you know, they're interested, go to Walking pool.com which is the name of the movie. Did we mention the name of the movie? Yes. Okay, I wasn't sure. Yeah, I'm sure you did in the end show, but to remind people, it is called The Walking Fool, and you can go to Walking fool.com which does have a trailer on there, so they can, they can sort of see it, and just from there, you know, try to spread the word. If you're, if you're excited about it, you know, just try to spread the word, because, like, like we've talked about, when you're on a small level, it's important to sort of get your audience, you know, not just people who like documentaries and independent films, but also people that are interested in the actual subject, so hikers and walkers and lovers of America,

Dave Bullis 52:38
Yeah, camping enthusiasts, stuff like that, you know, and again, it's called it's at Walking Full Doc on Twitter, again, I'm a big Twitter guy, and you know, just discuss with a lot of filmmakers, Twitter, you know, it always comes up in conversation, yeah, when they were building a campaign, when they were building an audience, about just getting the word out there,

Mark Phillips 52:57
Absolutely, and what's great is pretty much Walking Fool, the phrase Walking Fool is pretty much your number one hit anywhere you go, and Google or such, so you can always find it just by, you know, doing a search for a Walking Fool, but yeah, Walking Fool Doc is the Twitter handle, and the website is Walking fool.com which you can then you can find Twitter account from there.

Dave Bullis 53:19
Okay, excellent. And again, Mark. Thank you very much for coming on.

Mark Phillips 53:23
Oh, thanks, Dave, for having me. I appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 53:24
Oh, no problem. Again, like, if you ever need anything from me, just let me know. Again, everyone, thanks for listening. Please subscribe to this on either Potomatic or iTunes when it's over there. You can reach me at davebullis.com and again, find me on Twitter at Dave_Bullis. Again, Mark, thanks a lot for coming on, and have a great day.

Mark Phillips 53:42
Keep on walking, Dave.

Dave Bullis 53:44
I'm starting to walk more and more now, because the weather's starting to get nicer here in Pennsylvania. You know, we've had a brutal winter again, and I'm finally starting to get outside more and start to walk.

Mark Phillips 53:54
Yes, enjoy it. That's, and that's also, I'd love to be able to do that, just inspire some people to go for a walk every once in a while, be great.

Dave Bullis 54:00
Yeah, I'm just usually stuck in front of my laptop, trying to work on like 8 million things, and then you know, I was out in the sun yesterday, and I got sunburned from a little bit of sun. I go, man, I have been with doors way too long, but I'm a ginger anyway, so it kind of happens, right?

Mark Phillips 54:14
I don't see what you look like, but I see what your little cartoon avatar looks like, so I assume that you're a little sensitive to the skin and the skin section,

Dave Bullis 54:23
Yeah, I get burned by like heat later to buffets and I'm just like just getting crispy, so it's a constant, you know, I've been constantly on my guard.

Mark Phillips 54:33
Wow, you can never work together, never worked a fry station at McDonald's, then I guess

Dave Bullis 54:37
Yeah or Taco Bell, I can't work there either.

Mark Phillips 54:39
Yeah, it's probably that's probably all for the best, Dave.

Dave Bullis 54:42
So, all right, Mark. Thank you very much, buddy. And again, everyone, check out Mark at Walking Full Documentary. Please Google that and look him up. And again, there are any Google campaign hits on kids very soon, most likely the beginning of August or late July. And again, Mark. Thanks a lot for coming on.

Mark Phillips 55:01
All right, so long, Dave. Thanks.

Dave Bullis 55:02
Take care, buddy.

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BPS 482: How a Hollywood Creature Creator Made His First Feature Film with Hiroshi Katagiri

July 30, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every filmmaker dreams about directing a feature film. Few spend more than twenty years preparing for it. In this fascinating conversation, Hiroshi Katagiri shares a career that followed an unconventional path through Hollywood—one built not from directing chairs or screenwriting seminars, but from sculpting monsters, creating creatures, and mastering practical effects for some of the industry’s biggest productions. From Pacific Rim and Cabin in the Woods to Green Lantern and countless other projects, Hiroshi built a reputation as one of Hollywood’s most respected creature and makeup effects artists before eventually turning his attention toward directing.

His journey began in Japan, where a fascination with special makeup effects inspired him to leave home and move to Los Angeles immediately after high school. Armed with little more than determination and a passion for movie monsters, he enrolled in a makeup effects school, built a portfolio, and started looking for opportunities. Like many careers in filmmaking, his began at the bottom. An internship with special effects veteran Screaming Mad George opened the door to the industry, and from there Hiroshi slowly established himself through consistency, craftsmanship, and relationships.

One of the most valuable lessons from the conversation is how simple his advice remains despite decades of success. He repeatedly emphasizes that aspiring artists should stop waiting for permission. Don’t wait for school. Don’t wait for connections. Don’t wait for someone else to teach you. If you’re passionate about something, start creating immediately. Build a portfolio. Learn independently. Prove your commitment through action. That philosophy helped launch his own career and remains his primary advice for anyone hoping to break into filmmaking or visual effects today.

As the conversation shifts toward directing, Hiroshi reveals an interesting creative process. Unlike many filmmakers who discover their movie during production, he prefers to solve every major problem before cameras roll. Storyboards become essential. Visual sequences are mapped out in advance. The finished movie must exist in his mind long before production begins. This approach developed naturally from years working in practical effects, where creature designs, prosthetics, and makeup applications require extensive planning before arriving on set.

That preparation became especially important when he began directing his own short films, including Pulse, Crayon, and Hindsight. Rather than chasing large budgets, Hiroshi embraced limitations. He selected locations first and built stories around them. If he had access to a single house, he wrote a story that took place entirely inside that house. If resources were limited, he simplified the concept rather than compromising the execution. The result was a series of low-budget horror projects produced with small crews and minimal resources, yet driven by strong visual storytelling and clever use of available assets.

What emerges throughout the interview is a filmmaker deeply influenced by classic genre storytelling. Hiroshi cites Steven Spielberg, Robert Zemeckis, James Cameron, David Cronenberg, and The Twilight Zone as major influences. Interestingly, his love of horror comes less from graphic violence and more from atmosphere, suspense, and psychological unease. He openly discusses his admiration for Japanese horror traditions, where unsettling ideas often create more fear than explicit gore. This preference heavily informs the direction of his feature project Gehenna.

The story behind Gehenna demonstrates just how much patience independent filmmaking sometimes requires. Hiroshi spent nearly eight years developing the screenplay. Part of the challenge involved writing in a second language, repeatedly translating and refining drafts between Japanese and English. At the same time, he continued working full-time in the effects industry. Rather than rushing the process, he slowly refined the script until it reflected exactly the movie he wanted to make.

The concept itself cleverly combines his personal background and professional expertise. Set on the island of Saipan, a location shaped by intense World War II history, the story follows characters trapped inside a hidden Japanese military facility where supernatural events begin unfolding around them. The contained setting allowed Hiroshi to keep production costs manageable while still creating an ambitious horror experience filled with practical effects, mystery, and creature work.

Another fascinating aspect of the conversation involves relationships within the industry. Hiroshi explains how actor Doug Jones became involved with Gehenna simply because of years spent working together on various productions. The story serves as a reminder that careers in filmmaking are built not only on talent but also on long-term professional relationships. Every collaboration creates future opportunities, often in ways that are impossible to predict at the time.

Ultimately, Hiroshi’s story is about patience, preparation, and persistence. He didn’t rush toward directing. He spent decades mastering a craft, learning visual storytelling from the inside out, and gradually building the skills necessary to lead a feature film. In an industry obsessed with overnight success stories, his journey offers a different blueprint—one where expertise accumulates over time until opportunity finally meets readiness.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Hello everyone, welcome to another edition of the Dave Bullis podcast. Joining me today is Hiroshi Katagiri. Hiroshi has worked in the special effects field for over 23 years, and he's worked on films such as Escape from LA, Pacific Rim, Cabin in the Woods, and he's currently working on his first feature film, Gahanna. Hiroshi how are you?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, good, fine, thank you.

Dave Bullis 0:00
So, Hiroshi, just to get started, the first question I want to ask you is, how did you get started in the film industry?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, after I was like born and raised in Japan, and I just wanted to do special makeup effects and working for like Hollywood movies, so after graduating high school, I just moved to Los Angeles and just went to the, you know, the makeup school, like for 1010 weeks, and which is pretty short. Then I started building my portfolio. Then applied to some studio, and I just started as the intern when I was 19. I met the guy named the Screaming Matt George, you know, he, he has a, he owned a studio, Makeup Perfect Studio, he had to work for, like, Poltergeist Two back then, or Abyss. Then, yeah, then I just started as an intern there. That's my, my beginning.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Oh, cool. And then, you know, I see, then you went on to work on projects that escape from LA and Pacific Rim, so, so how did you get started working on those projects in the beginning?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Ah, wow, Escape from LA, it's about a horrible film. It's funny you mentioned that title, but it's the basically, you know, it's a, so that's 91 my like I first started, and it's like a golden age of makeup effects industry, you know, it's like a lot of like a direct video, low budget movies, and you know, bunch of big movies, like everything was happening in LA, so like everybody's working, pretty much, so, and also it's kind of small community, so you know, you get the recommendation for, you know, from other place and other studio, and so always get call, so that's the issue, keep doing a good job, you just keep asking for work and getting getting jobs,

Dave Bullis 0:00
So Hiroshi, if you had any advice for, like, a beginner who wanted to do what you do, what would that be?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
It's the basically just don't wait to learn from the school or anywhere you, if you like it, you're gonna start building your own as many ways you can get the instructions, you know, from internet or just you, you gotta, if you like it, that's a proof that if you, without the forcing by anybody, if you, if you can start building your own, you know, something, anything. So that's the, that's the first advice that you have to like it, then you have to prove. So build your portfolio to start,

Dave Bullis 0:00
Yeah, and that's really good advice,

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 0:00
And I think that that's true too, for you know, even if they want to be like a writer or director, and you know they have to, you know, it's it's a little easier now they say, because obviously with with the way cameras are now, you can, you don't need to shoot on film anymore, you can, you know, shoot on digital, and you could, yeah, and you know, but with special effects like that, you still need to have makeup, you still need to, you know, mold things like you do, I mean, you make those, I mean, amazing, I saw that one you did at Pacific Rim, and you had that mini puddle, and I mean, that was just amazing artwork.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Oh, thank you.

Dave Bullis 0:00
And I also saw the thing you did for Cabinet in the Woods, you, you made a Merman,

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah.

Dave Bullis 0:00
And I mean, that, that is, you know, that takes a lot of artistic ability to do that, even with the, even with the advent of a digital, but I mean, yeah, I can see what you mean. So, do you recommend that anybody who wants to do this, do you recommend they should be in LA?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Well, not really, you know. Nowadays, it's LA, it's the.. I would say, like, a worst place for working for the major movie. Yeah, I recommend going to, like, Vancouver or the London. Yeah, they're making more movies now over there.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Yeah, and you know, Georgia was just ranked as the number one place in America right now that's making movies.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Oh, really? Georgia, wow.

Dave Bullis 0:00
And number two is Louisiana.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, I've been there a couple times for several different movies.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Oh, really? Really, Louisiana?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, the Green Lantern and the.. no, no, that's the Green Lantern. Yep.

Dave Bullis 0:00
So, what models did you make? What special effects work did you do for the Green Lantern

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
During the Avensir character?

Dave Bullis 0:00
Yeah,

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, I sculpt the makeup for Avensir and dead body of him.

Dave Bullis 0:00
Oh, cool.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, and makeup design for Sinestro. Yeah, so just the first makeup design, just I sculpted on his live cast, and just know for that, for the test

Dave Bullis 0:00
Sinestro was played by Mark Strong, and it was turned out for it, but that was pretty good work.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah, it's an unfortunately movie was horrible, yeah, in the many digital digital characters, then the abs stands out pretty well because it was makeup,

Dave Bullis 0:00
Yeah, and Sinestro, and the, and you know, some of the villains in that movie, which is some of the most memorable parts.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Oh, yeah, the Hector, too. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 0:00
Yeah. So, so you know, around 2006

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:00
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 0:00
You've been working for a couple years, you decided to direct your own short film, which was Pulse.

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:46
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 0:46
What experiences did you encounter when you first made that film?

Hiroshi Katagiri 0:46
The biggest issue for me is, you know, I'm not the native English speaker, so the writing is the biggest issue. So, yeah, I just started writing, and I think I started in Japanese, and then just I made the English myself, and there's give it to my friend, the American friend, and he correct or the language mistake, and he bring me back, and then when I see that, and the nuance, and some details, like if I feel different, then I just change it, then just give him back, so just back and forth so many times to get the script, so it took me, like, I was working full time in the makeup effects industry also, so it took me six months before I start filming, so that's the biggest, hardest thing you know for starting the movie, and and also I'm pretty specific about the visual, how to shoot, and so the script has to be done, then I have to be in my mind has to be completed, you know, film has to be finished in my mind before I shoot, so it's harder before shoot, then then once shooting starts, it goes a little bit easier because I have the vision already, so

Dave Bullis 9:22
Yeah, so do you storyboard a lot, or just mainly have it in your head?

Hiroshi Katagiri 9:27
Yeah, I storyboard, yep.

Dave Bullis 9:30
So, you know, I found that to be a very invaluable tool as well. Is that, you know, storyboarding, and even I don't think they're, in my opinion, I don't think you can really storyboard too much, because if you break down it into very most minor details and have it along the wall, or have it, or however in a pamphlet, I think it really helps not only you but everybody else understand what actually is going on in the movie.

Hiroshi Katagiri 9:52
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep,

Dave Bullis 9:56
And so you know, I had David Hall on the podcast. I don't know if you're familiar with David Hall, he's a script consultant, but he always recommends having horror as your first project, because horror movies are, you know, quote unquote easier to do, because obviously horror is a character of the movie itself, you don't have to depend on actors per se, you don't have to depend on a location per se, but you know horror is sort of, it sort of goes across all boundaries and all cultures and all language barriers, do you feel the same?

Hiroshi Katagiri 10:38
Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

Dave Bullis 10:41
So then you, after as you shot Pulse, you shot two other short films, which are Crayon and Hindsight. Now, did you know with Pulse, Crayon, and Hindsight, did you craft on any of these projects?

Hiroshi Katagiri 10:52
What's the question? Did I,

Dave Bullis 10:54
Yeah, with Pulse, Crayon, and Hindsight, did you crowdfund any of those projects?

Hiroshi Katagiri 11:00
No, it's all my personal money, but the money I spend for all three movies, but maybe like 3000 altogether. And the first of all, you know, it's all the effects pretty much free, because you know I do, and I have friends, and all I need is material. And then, of course all my friends helped everybody, like actors and DP, and I didn't have to rent anything or the pay to anybody, and I was so, so fortunate, you know, I got the all talented people just helping out, so and also just writing is so important, so I just write the story, I decided the location first, then okay, so here I see I gotta use this house, then everything, every drama is gonna happen in just this house. Then what can I make? So that's my start to make the movie, so we say I know I can't spend too much money, so then I just see a location is so important, then I just think of the idea, what can I do, you know, to shoot in like a single location, make it interesting, so

Dave Bullis 12:11
And Hiroshi, that idea has, we've seen that it works very well too in recent years with like your paranormal activity that shot in Oren's house and it made hundreds of millions of dollars, and

Hiroshi Katagiri 12:23
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 12:23
And a $13,000 budget. And when you shot these movies, Hiroshi, did you have a skeleton crew, or did you have a fairly large crew?

Hiroshi Katagiri 12:32
Oh, skeleton crew, there's the very minimum, maybe 12 people altogether, and sometimes like a four people in some someday in as four people, everybody including an actor, yeah, it's interesting. One DP, me, one actor, and 180 that's all.

Dave Bullis 12:55
So you put those three shorts together at DVD, where can people find the horror theater for that's the name of all three movies combined? Where can people buy that hard theater DVD?

Hiroshi Katagiri 13:07
Oh, just check on Amazon, then search by the Hora Theater, then you can find it.

Dave Bullis 13:13
Okay,

Hiroshi Katagiri 13:13
Yeah.

Dave Bullis 13:14
And I'll put a link to that too, up on the show notes.

Hiroshi Katagiri 13:16
Yeah, thank you. Well, also, you can just watch it free on my YouTube channel.

Dave Bullis 13:21
I'll put a note, I'll put a link to that too.

Hiroshi Katagiri 13:23
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 13:24
So, so when you were making these movies, Hiroshi, you know, and as you make films today, you know who are your filmmaking inspirations.

Hiroshi Katagiri 13:32
It's a, yeah, it's a tough question. There's so many, and when I was younger, my favorite director was the robot Jamaica, so loved the like Back to the Future series, especially in soul entertainment, and it's the horror too, and I take the horrors not as a scary movie, but you know, still entertainment movie, and have to entertain audience, and Jamaica was, and Spielberg, you know, of course, and those, those guys are incredible for amusing people, I mean, later period, and they changed, but the earlier days, especially, and of course, Cameron, James Cameron, and yeah, huge influence, and especially the effect. I was like 15 years old, and there's a double feature in Japan: aliens and the fly, and shocking day, shocking day. Yeah, this was the aliens, and it blows my mind. So amazing, and I was expected. Okay, no way, no way. Next, gonna be next movie will be as big as this one, and then they watch the fly as amazing too. So much in one day, and as there's a huge influence for me, like. James Cameron and the Cronenberg, yeah, and as many, many directors, many movies, you know, it's like I can't speak forever, but horror movie, yeah, as I mentioned on my project, is the Twilight Zone got a huge influence, you know, it's the, it's really low budget, and depending on the actor's performance and idea of the story, and always, you know, there's endings that it's really shocking and surprising ending, and that's the model of my story, always was the I was so interesting to just keep watching, and then at the end, just surprising, yeah, just the, yeah, the whole setup is, it's just amazing, so probably you know the biggest influence me is the Zohos, you know, Twilight Zone, especially for my movie. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:08
So you know, I'm a big fan of J-Harr. You know, I just heard that the remaking audition, which is by Takashi Meke.

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:16
Oh, really?

Dave Bullis 16:18
Yeah, they were making an American-made audition now.

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:20
Okay, so

Dave Bullis 16:22
Have you seen audition?

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:23
Yeah, of course. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:24
You know, I, and you know that reminds me of the same model, where it's almost like there was another feature, like Pulse, and like a one missed call, and there's a whole with J Har, it's more of an unsettling, I guess I would say,

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:40
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:41
The actual scare or heart, you know, if I know what meme, but, but it does it very well, and I was just wondering, you know, how good the audition, because the Japanese audition was, was pretty gory,

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:52
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:53
So the end thing, I don't think they'd be able to do a Samaritan version,

Hiroshi Katagiri 16:58
Yeah, my scaredness taste is more, yeah, J Hora. It's the Japanese, like a creepy style. And audition is an excellent movie. I love it too, but I, I'm not good at the, like, a torture or the painful scene or movie. Yeah, it's the Evil Dead. I love the evil. Dead, no, the first one, original one, Sam Raimi's.

Dave Bullis 17:24
Yes,

Hiroshi Katagiri 17:25
And there's a scene of the stabbing with the ankle with the pencil. That scene I couldn't watch, you know. I watched the countless time of, you know, that movie, and only that scene I couldn't watch. As always, close my eyes,

Dave Bullis 17:43
So you have a new project called Johanna. It's your first film project, so.. so why don't you tell us about you, this Gehana industry? I know this is, you know, your first feature film, and I know it's.. it's very important to you. So, why don't you tell us about it?

Hiroshi Katagiri 17:59
Yeah, so I. so the next big step is to make feature film. I made the three shots already, and then, so the feature film, I just needed the great idea, and also I'm gonna take advantage of my background, which is, yeah, I was born and grown up in Japan, and then I mean I'm in the industry for like over 20 years in the American makeup effects industry, so then I was thinking, what can I do, you know, to take those advantages. So then I, I found the good location, which is takes place in Saipan. So Saipan is the huge battlefield between Japan and America during the World War Two, and then also the location. I know it's my, it's going to be first feature movie, so I cannot spend too much money. So I just, the thinking of the story that's the takes place in isolated place, which is the Japanese secret military base from World War Two. Then I got the great idea for that, and so it started. Maybe just got this idea, start writing maybe eight years ago, and took so long as the may you know complete the script and show my friend has correct everything as they change it many times and I try to apply for like a Japanese movie, I just rewrite everything in Japanese also and trying to pitch to the direct producer of the ring, and when he told me he's looking for English script, so then just rewrite that, so it's the crazy story. So it took me like seven eight years to complete the one script. Now, of course, because you know I'm working full time in the makeup defects industry.

Hiroshi Katagiri 20:08
So, but anyway, so, so this movie is so important, you know. So, my desire, long time desire, is this in it, and I'm just spending all my effort to make it really, really interesting movie in a scary movie, so yeah, anything more I should speak about,

Dave Bullis 20:34
The just the synopsis of so far of Gahanna is, you know, an American real estate agent finds, you know, looking for a real estate project in Saipan, and you know, she ends up finding, you know, this World War Two bunker in this place, and then obviously that's where, you know, all hell breaks loose,

Hiroshi Katagiri 20:56
Yeah, and they encounter the creepy, super creepy old man, which you can see in the, like, Kickstarter campaign, Doug Jones playing it, and then accidentally they killed the old man. Then some explosion happening, so you don't know the cause of explosion. Then everybody knocked knocked down to the floor and lose conscious. Then when they wake up, then old man's gone, and before that they find the dried-up corpse from somewhere, looks like a Caucasian in a Japanese military base. Then all those corpses gone too. Then also the exit is closed, so they are trapped inside, and then just try on the way to, you know, the looking for the exit from there, then they encounter the like a mysterious series of mysterious events, and each one has the fear for something, then then they have hallucination, or the they experience the those fear each one then yeah then then at the end you know there's the all the answer you know who was old man or the where the dead body gone and if they can get out or not know every answer is you know there's surprise ending at the end,

Dave Bullis 22:22
Awesome, And it does sound really cool. I've actually, I've actually pledged you Kickstarter, and you know, I watched the video twice. It actually is very well done.

Hiroshi Katagiri 22:32
Oh, thank you.

Dave Bullis 22:32
And so, and also, How did you end up getting Doug Jones on the project? And for those who don't know, who Doug Jones is, he's done a volume, a lot of work with Del Toro,

Hiroshi Katagiri 22:48
Yeah,
Pan's Labyrinths, yeah, Hellboy, Abby Sapien, and Angel of Death, many car, yeah, any, any skinny creatures in, oh, Fording Sky TV right now. Yeah, he's an idiom. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 23:06
Yeah. Thanks for helping me out there. I forgot his movie Pan's Labyrinth. But how did you get Doug on board the project?

Hiroshi Katagiri 23:15
Okay, um, Doug Turner is, of course, you know, famous among us. No, I, I worked with him for many, many different films, like a Time Machine or The Doom, and The Hair Boy, Hair Boy Two, Buffet, The Vampire Slayer. There's so many, as the every time when we make something skinny character, it's always him. Yes, he knows me, and I know him, and I just emailed him that if he could support my Kickstarter project, and he, yeah, and he's just totally cool, such a nice guy,

Dave Bullis 24:01
And that's amazing, and no, it just goes to show you, you know, you have to make relationships in this business.

Hiroshi Katagiri 24:07
Yeah, yeah, it's so fortunate. Yep,

Dave Bullis 24:11
So, so Hiroshi, what are your plans for the release for Gahanna?

Hiroshi Katagiri 24:16
Oh, the plan for

Dave Bullis 24:18
The release, are you hoping to get this in the theaters, or just like VOD,

Hiroshi Katagiri 24:22
Yeah, yeah, so my ideally love to release in theater. Then, so there's a way that's the reason I'm using the Kickstarter, is you know, there's a several way to get funded for movies, so I could approach to a distribution company to get funded, and if they like it, of course, but what comes with it, with the money, is their control for the movie, so it's a lot of things, news, the my plan is before looking for distribute distributor. I make just great, great film, then then I just look for the other distribution, so that's the, that's this idea,

Dave Bullis 25:12
Very cool.

Hiroshi Katagiri 25:13
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 25:15
So you're currently, you know, crowdfunding on your Kickstarter for Gahanna.

Hiroshi Katagiri 25:19
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 25:20
I'm going to link to the Kickstarter in the show notes, so I mean, honestly, I, if anyone's listening, I really recommend you check out Hiroshi, video for it. I check out, you know, the project page, because it's actually a very cool, well done video. It looks like it's going to be a great project.

Hiroshi Katagiri 25:37
Thank you,

Dave Bullis 25:39
And Hiroshi. So, you know, in closing, what were any projects you have in mind for the future? I know you probably don't want to answer that question, because you're so busy with Gahanna, but yeah,

Hiroshi Katagiri 25:50
I do, I do, yeah. So I have another script called the Bushido, no, it's the, it's a job I practiced aikido for like 23 years, you know, same as my career, 23 years. So, with my instructor, I just wrote a script to show the value of the bachelorettes. So, American Guy is a main character, and it takes place in Japan. It's like last summer I meet Karate Kid, and, but you know, that's a bigger, bigger movie, so then I need to, you know, I, of course, I want to direct. Then, in order to direct that, then I have to make smaller movie to start the master. I need experience to direct the feature film, so then, which, you know, Gehenna is my first film. It's a low budget and takes advantage of my career, so the second one I'm looking for the making the action, but I want to make create a bunch of characters, creatures, and the characters with the cool makeup effects, so something you know I can get the experts, of course, and all my friends gotta support me for that still, the cool practical effects creation movie with action. Yeah, you know, a ninja scroll,

Dave Bullis 27:14
Yeah,

Hiroshi Katagiri 27:15
Yeah, it's something like that, but again, you're trying to make it cheap too, like it takes place in one mountain, so you know, guy wakes up, and he here, he has no memory, and he's wondering of who he is, and then some, some like the characters are attacking him, and he has a bandage wrapped in his hand is wrapped in a bandage, and then he like his instinct, he avoiding this using his hand, then the bandage fall off, and that's a creature hand, then yeah, once his hand exposed, and he kills everybody, like, like a crazy power he has, then then struggling his discovery in who he is and who his enemy is, and he's trying to find out, you know, just his identity, so you know, bunch of characters, you know, like a ninja scroll with, you know, special power characters, and visually it's cool, but you know, first of all, I have to focus on Gehenna to complete fund it, first of course, and complete, yeah. but yeah, I have more ideas in the future.

Dave Bullis 28:26
Awesome, with aikido, it's interesting, you know, a keto really, you know, was big in the 90s when Steven Seagal was, you know, doing his movies, and now it's sort of,

Hiroshi Katagiri 28:36
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 28:36
You know, they say that every decade has its martial arts, the 90s was a keto. Now it's like mixed martial arts. In the 80s it was kickboxing, and the 70s it was kung fu, and the 60s. So they always say that every in the 80s also is ninjutsu, but they always say that every decade, but it'd be cool to see a keto come back, yeah, especially the guys, because when they can actually, you know, use the throws and, and stuff like that, it's, you know, it's pretty interesting, you know, and you know, because now it's, it's more of like a Brazilian jiu jitsu thing, but I've actually practiced a kilo, I've practiced Brazilian jitsu, and really, yeah, yeah, I actually practiced at a place called Max Exercise in Philadelphia, and it was actually the oldest judo club on the East Coast, and it's been there for years upon years, and they practice judo, keto, and Brazilian jiu jitsu.

Hiroshi Katagiri 29:34
Oh, that's cool, that's great.

Dave Bullis 29:37
Yeah, it's pretty cool, but yeah, I've done practice, I know exactly where you're coming from.

Hiroshi Katagiri 29:43
Yeah, and there's many like old old techniques in a year, something you have never seen in the movie yet. Then I'm just researching, and you know those, and my instructor has got lots of ideas, and it's pretty interesting. So I'm just making test action action cuts. and you want to show something unique, and it's not the typical, like a Steven Seagal Aikido, or the, you know, some some other movies. Don't want to make something new, new action. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 30:23
I'm waiting for Sistema to make us debut.

Hiroshi Katagiri 30:27
Yeah, I met the Mikhail.

Dave Bullis 30:32
Oh, Mikhail Rio Boco.

Hiroshi Katagiri 30:34
Yeah, yeah, he, he hit me pretty light, but it was heavy. Yeah, incredible.

Dave Bullis 30:43
Where did you meet him at?

Hiroshi Katagiri 30:44
In Japan, actually.

Dave Bullis 30:45
Oh

Hiroshi Katagiri 30:46
Yeah, I had the scouting seminar in Japan, and when I was there, that's happened. The he has a seminar over there in the same, same area. Yeah, it's just attended, and it's a great experience.

Dave Bullis 30:59
Yeah, it's a pretty interesting martial art. I, I actually didn't learn from him, but one of his disciples, disciples, Vladimir Vasily, in Canada, one of his guys actually started training with him.

Hiroshi Katagiri 31:12
Oh, cool.

Dave Bullis 31:12
So that's that's what I've been doing now. So it's a small world, right?

Hiroshi Katagiri 31:17
Yeah, I love the training method. Yeah, it's great. It's very similar to philosophy, is really similar to aikido.

Dave Bullis 31:25
Yes, and I, you know, the similar to also I've noticed the Tai Chi Chuan.

Hiroshi Katagiri 31:31
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 31:32
Yes, yeah, it's powerful relaxation, but yeah, it's pretty cool. And so, so you know, Hiroshi, I know you're a busy guy, I know you're busy with the movie, everything, so I won't, I won't keep you anymore. But is there anything else you'd like to talk about that we haven't touched upon?

Hiroshi Katagiri 31:49
Um, yeah, I just want to just say about the Gehenna, you know, it's the, this is really, really great original story, you know, I don't, I don't know anything similar to this, it's pretty original, and the visual, of course, you know, it's the I'm working with the top effects guys in the world, so yeah, it's gonna be a great movie, and I'm not gonna turn it down, turn you guys down, it's gonna be great movie, so please, please support my movie, and please pledge, so that's my message.

Dave Bullis 32:24
And again, I repeat Hiroshi's message. I would advise you guys to check it out, link to the show notes, but I think it's gonna be a cool, really cool project, and, and you know, hope you guys check it out and donate. Hiroshi, thank you very much for coming on.

Hiroshi Katagiri 32:39
Yeah, thank you, thank you

Dave Bullis 32:40
Anytime, and all right. And make sure you check out Hiroshi, it's called Gehanna, which is G E H A N N A. It's the Facebook page. Oh

Hiroshi Katagiri 32:49
No, G E H E N N A.

Dave Bullis 32:55
Oh, I'm sorry, I.. that's bad on my G E H E N N A

Hiroshi Katagiri 33:03
N A,

Dave Bullis 33:03
Yeah, and, and also, you could, is there a website anybody can view your work at?

Hiroshi Katagiri 33:09
Yeah, gehennafilm.com yeah. Then you can look for the Facebook Gehenna

Dave Bullis 33:39
And Hiroshi thank you, very much for coming on again.

Hiroshi Katagiri 33:42
Yeah, thanks so much.

Dave Bullis 33:43
Anytime, buddy. Take care.

Hiroshi Katagiri 33:48
Yeah, take care.

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