Blog | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 478: The Untold Story of ECW’s Rise & Fall with John Philapavage

July 2, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Some documentaries are made to entertain. Others are made because the filmmaker becomes obsessed with understanding a world that most people either misunderstand or completely ignore. That’s what makes this conversation with John Philapavage so compelling. What began as a teenager’s fascination with ECW wrestling culture slowly transformed into a 13-year filmmaking odyssey that became Barbed Wire City, an ambitious documentary about the rise, chaos, mythology, and emotional aftermath of Extreme Championship Wrestling.

John’s journey into filmmaking didn’t begin in film school or Hollywood. It began with childhood creativity, VHS cameras, comic books, and DIY storytelling experiments with his lifelong creative partner Kevin Kernan. Growing up in Pennsylvania, surrounded by wrestling culture and underground fandom, they became fascinated not just by wrestling itself, but by the people orbiting around it—the fans, performers, promoters, and strange emotional ecosystem that ECW created. That curiosity eventually evolved into something bigger than fandom. It became anthropology through filmmaking.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the conversation is how John reframes the purpose of the documentary itself. While many wrestling fans expected Barbed Wire City to simply celebrate ECW nostalgia, John approached the project differently. He wasn’t interested in creating propaganda or fan service. He wanted to document truth—even when that truth became uncomfortable. That meant examining violence, manipulation, obsession, cult-like fan loyalty, and the emotional cost that ECW left behind for many of the people involved.

That approach created enormous challenges during production. Interview subjects often contradicted each other. Some intentionally distorted facts. Others blended reality with wrestling mythology until even they no longer seemed fully certain what was true anymore. John explains how difficult it became to untangle truth from performance in a business built on illusion. “There’s your version, my version, and the truth,” becomes one of the underlying themes of the entire episode.

The interview also becomes an incredible lesson in documentary filmmaking psychology. John talks openly about learning how to interview subjects without appearing threatening, judgmental, or overly fan-driven. Early on, wrestlers viewed him as “just a fan,” which often limited access and credibility. But over time, he learned how to position himself more like a filmmaker and investigator rather than a superfan seeking validation. That subtle shift changed everything. Referrals began happening. More wrestlers agreed to interviews. Trust slowly built over years of persistence.

And then there are the unbelievable production stories.

At one point, John describes interviewing New Jack while the wrestler casually held a machete across his lap during the interview. The tension wasn’t performative—it felt genuinely dangerous. Yet John also reveals something deeper about documentary work: often the filmmaker’s job is to stay calm long enough for the truth to reveal itself naturally. Some of the documentary’s most memorable moments emerged not from controlled interviews, but from simply allowing unpredictable personalities to exist honestly on camera.

The crowdfunding section of the conversation is equally valuable for independent filmmakers. John offers brutally honest lessons about Kickstarter, budgeting, rewards fulfillment, and the hidden costs creators rarely anticipate. He explains how many crowdfunding campaigns fail not because the project lacks passion, but because creators underestimate logistics. Shipping costs, rewards, travel, licensing, and production expenses can quietly consume an entire campaign budget if not carefully planned.

Perhaps the most powerful takeaway from the episode is the sheer persistence required to finish independent films. Barbed Wire City was not made with studio financing, giant crews, or guaranteed distribution. It survived because two filmmakers refused to let the project die. Over thirteen years, the documentary repeatedly stalled, restarted, evolved, and nearly disappeared entirely. Yet John continued gathering footage, building relationships, researching wrestling history, and refining the story until the film finally became real.

And in many ways, that persistence becomes the true story behind the documentary.

Not wrestling.

Not ECW.

Not nostalgia.

But the simple reality that independent filmmaking often becomes an endurance test between the creator and time itself.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:46
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:49
Joining me today is John Philapavage. John is the co-director and producer of Barbed Wire City, the unauthorized story of extreme championship wrestling. John, how are you?

John Philapavage 2:05
I am well. Thank you for having me, man.

Dave Bullis 2:06
Oh, my pleasure. The last time we saw each other was at the premiere of Barbed Wire City

John Philapavage 2:12
Correct! And full disclosure, because Dave's being awesome, I wasn't positive I had met Dave, and I probably had, like, a conversation with him, but as he noted to me, I was running around like completely overwhelmed, trying to like help run that channel. So I thought that I met Dave, but I did ask him off air if I met Dave. Yes, that would be April of what, 2013 We did that, so almost two and a half years now.

Dave Bullis 2:40
Yeah, I do remember that. I, and believe me, John, I've been there, man. I know how it is. You know, you go into, you go into, you're doing these events, and it's just like everything blurs together, people and events and time and everything. It just sort of all go meshes together.

John Philapavage 2:59
That whole night was such, it was a culmination of like 13 years of work, and not like I shouldn't even say it like that. It was, you know, got the idea in February of 2000 Started making notes. I was working with Kevin, the other co-director who worked with me on this project, and he's a childhood friend of mine. We were working together at a car wash. I started. I think I wrote four names down, and I said, "Hey, would you do this for me? And originally it was like I wanted to write a book, because a writer, and we did, you know, quote unquote "stoy" was videography. We were like, you know, even in 2000 I would have been.. I would have just turned 19 that month, actually. I was 19 when I had the idea. I wrote four names down. I don't even know that we interviewed any of those four people, actually. I think one, I think one, actually. And yes, this was 13 years later, 13 years and one month later, or two months later, we finished it, and like everybody that I ever know was there, plus all these amazing people I met through the raising funds through Kickstarter, including yourself, I had to, like, you know, so DIY, I had to, like, help run the thing. I was telling you off there that I said to somebody, like, "Okay, we have to do the Q and A, so I need to find these people and, like, let them in. I told them to come to this door, and, like, "Who's getting the cheesecakes? And one of the other people said, "Well, I have to do this, and now the person said, well, I've got to do this text thing, and so I had to run down to Tony Luke's and get the cheesesteaks that we had promised people for to do a Q and A with me, so I didn't get to have an ego moment and feel like a star, I had to go get cheesesteaks and give them to people and answer questions. The point is, it was like an amazing night that I never thought that we would get to that point, that was a big deal, and like you always want to do more stuff, but it is one of those things where you go, if I could just do this one thing for the in public, I'm not for the public, because really, I mean, let's be honest, you're doing a lot. It for yourself, you have an urge within yourself that you have to do, but it's amazing to get not just the validation, it's the buy-in from people. So, just meeting all these people that, like yourself, interacted with online, who showed up for it, and they seemed like almost like they knew me, and they were proud of me, because they had interacted with me so much over these months, but that was like this really cool feeling, you know, to do, to do that. But yeah, it's that whole night is like both I have memories of it, and it's also this blur. I just remember downloading somebody's, I think it was the Torches Pro Wrestling Torch, which is for those of you listening to this who don't know, wrestling, that is one of the major publications going back to the late 80s for wrestling. They did both men, Wade Keller and Bruce Mitchell, appeared in the film, and they did like a two hour and 15 minute, like a review of the film, and kind of a talk about history and different things. And I dropped my friend Gene off around, I think, 245 in the morning, and I drove back to the Lehigh Valley, listening to that, and that, for some reason, that memory of just being by myself and being like satisfied that I completed something is something that, like, it's that solitary thing sticks with you. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 6:14
Yeah. Well, you know, John, I heard a story that on the set of Quintin's last film, he had to get cheesesteaks for everybody, so don't feel bad.

John Philapavage 6:21
Oh, I'd like to have his career. I'll tell you that,

Dave Bullis 6:28
So you know, John I always usually start off with the same question for everybody, and that question is, could you just give us a little more about your background, and you know how you got started in the doing film?

John Philapavage 6:40
Sure, I let's see. I was born in 81 and I ended up very quickly living in Allentown, Pennsylvania, which, for you wrestling fans who are also history geeks, I grew up like three blocks from Ag Hall, which is where WWF, which is now WWE, used to tape their television. In fact, my first wrestling show ever was in, I think, 1990 like September of 90, at Ag Hall. And the reason I'm going on about this is because through an alleyway, which is like half a block away, there was an alleyway that kind of ended right near my row home yard through that alleyway. If you went directly from my yard through that path was a house that we nicknamed the Karen Mansion, and that's because when I was two, my mom took me on a walk, and when you're two, like, you can't go very far. So we went around the block, and there was a little boy playing in a plastic swimming pool that was blue and it had alligators on it, and I thought that was the coolest, and I said, "Mom, I want to play with that kid, but I was like really timid, so I probably hid behind her, and luckily Jolene, Kevin's mom, was outside, and my mom talked to her, and I ended up meeting this gentleman, Kevin Kernan, when I was two, and that's been my creative partner ever since, and so it's we just passed July. I met him in July 34 now, 32 years that we've been attached to each other in one way or the other. So, yeah, we got in here, but we were doing creative projects when we were kids. We used to make movies with those over the shoulder VHS cameras, yeah. Well, Kevin's dead ball, Kevin's dad traveling. He's like, I'm actually sitting in their property right now. He's like a second father to me. They, they not only helped kind of raise me, but they still, they still kind of take care of me, even now, and look out for me when we do holidays. A lot of times, I go to their house, I at least spend two hours with them, pretty much every holiday, regardless of whether Kev or his sister Emily are in town. Our studio, like I said, is on their property. I don't mean to make it like they're rich, by the way, when people hear me say this, they always think that Cass family has a ton of money, they bought when we were six, they bought this dilapidated old like farmhouse property, like it was just a mess, and there was like this building that, like in real people's terms, would have been condemned, it just wasn't like a public public building, there was a spring house, because there used to be a national spring on the bottom, and I remember being told very specifically, you were not allowed to go in there, because if you open the door at the top, there was nothing there, but there was no floor, and I remember being 16, and Kev took me out there, and I didn't know, I hadn't really been spending time around his house, so I didn't know, and I remember, even at 16, you know, you're near adulthood, I remember saying him, like, like, like, yeah, we're not supposed to be going here, like, it was weird to me that he was taking me there, because he's not a mischievous guy, and he opened the door, and, like, his dad had completely reservice, his dad's like a DIY handyman who like always has side projects for weekends and stuff, and he completely changed it into this like cool, like it reminds me like Lord of the Rings, like, like the kind of the kind of place that you like, the secret world you fall into, and it was like the place where he'd go to write children's stories and smoke his pipe, because he used to smoke a pipe at the time, and we took that shit over right away, dude, in ours, if we were 16, you know, we're going on almost 20 years, and I am sitting in it right now, and I love this place. So, this is where we, we started making tape to tape VHS to VHS editing on VCRs. Remember that stuff? Oh, yeah, do that. We made a comic book when we were 94 ish, 1994 93 We were really into making comic books, and I tricked one of my uncles into getting us like a computer program, which seemed amazing at the time. I'm sure now, if you looked at it, it would look like MS, the first version of MS Paint, you know. So we had a comic book, we used to make videos with the whole family, they'd let us write it and kind of direct it, and then they would just kind of push us and nudge us in directions, and then we started just making like silly short films, and I convinced Jeb to do the Barb Wire City Project, just because I had a fascination with the UC Dubs Arena and wrestling in general, and now this poor guy, who has never ever, you know, paid for a ticket for wrestling, and never was forced to watch it when he was a teenager, knows far more about wrestling than the average, you know, the rank and file wrestling fan who isn't an obsessive fan, so I guess I'm sorry for that, but at the same time it's fun, because now I can do wrestling jokes with him, and he gets it, so,

Dave Bullis 12:05
But basically, you know, I can imagine when you actually sat down, you know, with Kevin, and actually like put on wrestling for the first time, I could imagine his response probably would have been something like, what the hell we watching,

John Philapavage 12:19
He was always, he was never kind of defending about it. He would put his foot down here and there. I remember there was like a WCW pay-per-view in the early 90s, one of the ones where they were working with New Japan, so it was like from the Tokyo Dome, and like anything that was from a foreign culture was fascinating when he had a kid. I just thought foreign cultures were so interesting because they weren't my daily life, and I remember I got him like watching stuff on Saturday mornings when I'd sleep over, and then we'd wake up early, and like he wouldn't tell me, like, "Turn that crap off, or this or that, and he'd make comments about stuff, so like I was always trying to manipulate him into being a fan, so I had a friend, because I didn't have a wrestling friend for years, and everything, you know, it was like, especially by the early 90s, like it was uncool again. It was like you'd see, you were a loser if you watched it, and I kept watching, trying to keep it quiet, Dave. I couldn't tell people, but Kevin already knew, so I was always trying to manipulate him, and so I tried to get him to like buy the tape review, and that's when he was just like not a fan of this, and no, sit in the room if you watch it, I'll be nice to know. And then slowly but surely I got him to do this project, and over the expanse of 13 years, off and on, you know, now I get a kick out of the fact that, like, he's he's friendly with Mike Johnson, the wrestling reporter, so like, he'll, Kevin has this gimmick where he texts me random things, where his, he pretends his blog is called The Outsider, and the gimmick is that it's a person who doesn't really understand wrestling here and isn't a fan, but reports on it, so anything that Mike puts on his feed, he just like makes a joke of it and texts it to me. Hopefully, Mike doesn't listen to our Kevin will be in trouble.

Dave Bullis 14:08
Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned that there's that thing, KFAB news.com that I always first of all was sold. I was like, what the hell is this? I have you seen that?

John Philapavage 14:18
You know who showed that to me, Kevin, he He, I think that's pretty much kind of where he got the gimmick, although, like, I believe his idea, like, I'm sure it existed, but Kevin wouldn't know, he didn't spend his free time, usually, like, I think one of the people he said yes to on Facebook, when we, he had a lot of people trying to Facebook friend him during the film because I was everywhere and I was saying his name everywhere because I had to do all the media, he would, he did, I think two interviews, and I think they were both with Mike Johnson, because we're friendly with Mike through making the film, we became friendly with Mike and. Um, so Mike would kind of press him into it, and they were both like in person, because he would just bail on it if it was on the phone, but like Mike was there and had his like hot to Adam, like, can I do this, but yeah, he, yeah, I only know about it because I guess he saw it because one of the fans he said yes to on Facebook was posting stuff, and he kind of went down the rabbit hole one day, and when we got to the studio to work on on something else, like this is after Barbar City, he he showed this to me, and he and I was like, "Is that what you got that idea or something? And he's like, "No, but it's the same thing, I think I'm just gonna steal their ideas, like, just joking, so, but yes, I'm aware of it, because, because he's the one who showed it to me, oddly enough,

Dave Bullis 15:48
Yeah, I, you know, who showed up to me was the Blue Mini, and

John Philapavage 15:51
I love Brian in the world, and I'm sorry, like, I always call him Brian, and I'm not sure, I know in wrestling there's like, it's weird, because, like, it's Brian's a personal friend of mine, and I'm not gonna call him by, you know, no offense to him, I'm not gonna call him by, like, a pretend name, because he's my friend, like, I've been to his house, we've gone on, like, road trips together, you know, for conventions and stuff, like, he's the best man in the world, I'm sorry, I just had to say that

Dave Bullis 16:22
You don't call him like, 'Hey, mr. Meaney, like you know, you don't say, 'Hey, mr. Meaney, or should I call you Blue?

John Philapavage 16:28
I don't.. I don't remember my first.. I'm sure my first conversation with him.. like, I would call him whatever he wanted, and then at some point I just had a conversation.. I think he introduced himself as, like, Brian. like, I think somewhere in there, like, post interviewing him when he reached out to me when we started the Kickstarter thing. We just had a conversation. I'm calling by, and he never, like, said anything about it. And finally, just because I'm me and I'm super detail oriented, and I want people to be comfortable with everything, I said to him, like, is that, you know, is that okay? Like, I just feel weird calling out, like an actual friend of mine by this name, but if you think it's like disrespectful, because within your industry, you know, kind of like the thing where some guys you might be really good friends with a guy who is a heel in a company, and if you're, if you're, if he gets a comp ticket to sit in the front row, he kind of expects you to boo him, you know, in fact he wants you to really give it to him, because that's his job, you know. So, if he asked me to do something like that, I would, but you know, fortunately, I became friends with the guy who's like never going to be a heel in any room he ever steps into, so I don't have to worry about things like that.

Dave Bullis 17:38
Yeah, you know, just as a little side story. One time when I, when I was helping King Kong Bundy, and a friend of mine was training under him at when he was in wrestling school, and I would come and I'd help set up like the chairs and stuff like that. And then I, then he was like, "Hey, we help set the ring, and I was like, "Sure, you know, I'll help out. It was for free, whatever. So finally they came to me one day, and they said, "We want you to want to do an angle where this, this like this heel attacks a fan. So, my.. so this is when my friend was going to be a fan next to me, right? So, here's the thing. Okay, so we're sitting next to each other, my friend and myself, and one of their heels is coming out, and he says that, and he cheats to win, right. So, my friend, like, we now, he know, he has all his friends have found me there, and he didn't tell anybody about this, except for me. Now, I was only in on this, so he gets up, and he yells, "That's bullshit, you're a cheat, motherfucker, Pierce says, blah blah blah. So, he's getting into a brawl with his heel, and I have turned, and his fiance, and everything are looking at him like, what the fuck is going on here? And it was just, I couldn't stop fucking laughing, and they ended up, you know, scuffling in the ring, it's broken up, this and that, but it was just, it was hilarious. I'm sorry, that story really had much to do. We're talking about, but I thought,

John Philapavage 19:03
By the way, this is primarily a filmmaking podcast, right?

Dave Bullis 19:07
Yes,

John Philapavage 19:09
Most of your listenership have no idea what we're talking about right now.

Dave Bullis 19:13
Oh, they probably tuned out already, they probably heard me talk about, you know, wrestling by now. They're like, oh well, we'll come back next week, Dave, but no, but this is

John Philapavage 19:24
Glad I'm such a channel changer. Those are circumstances. What are you gonna do?

Dave Bullis 19:30
No, they're gonna hear me talking about King Kong Bundy, you mean like, oh well, he did work Richard Pryor at one point, so maybe Dave is a pointier, but you know, this is, this is film centric, you know, but I mean, we're, you know, we're talking about the documentary, and you know, it just happens to be about wrestling, so I just want to show that story, you know, personally, I think a lot of viewers will love this, because I actually have requests to do more things about documentaries, so

John Philapavage 19:59
My bad man,

Dave Bullis 20:07
Yeah, so I know people will definitely be interested in this, and you know, so I wanted to ask you, is you know, as we talk about your documentary, Barb Wire City, you know, how did you go about finally starting to put this all together, you know, in those initial stages, meaning, like, you know, how did you get started putting together? Like, okay, I have a list of people I want to talk to. Did you know how did you start going about, you know, reaching out to these people?

John Philapavage 20:33
Okay, let's see here. I am not good with brevity. I'm going to try to condense this, because it is a 13 year story. Luckily, at least I can sort of spin the tail at first, like I said, I think I said this on the podcast, and not when we were talking beforehand, I had a list of like four people, like I wanted to write a book about my like almost like a Hunter S. Thompson-esque, like fan journal of going to the arena, and why it was important to people, like it was a cultural thing. And I've always been fascinated with sociology, and I was one of those people when I was finally old enough to, and I got my license. I would go to the, in fact, the first two times I went to the arena, like, my aunt drove me there with, like, two or three friends. I just wanted to go so badly. I didn't get, I was one of the people who didn't get their license right away. I don't know, it's weird now for me to like think back why. I just think it was just I just probably figured my parents, they're not gonna like let me drive a car, and I don't have money, so like why bother. So it wasn't until I was 18 that I could drive myself down, and regardless, we would just stand in line outside, and, like, I know it's a status thing to sit ringside, and you don't have to show up until five minutes before the show, and you know this guy, like John Bailey, the straw hat guy, takes tickets, so you go in the side door and give him a hug, and all that stuff, and that's not well and cool, and I'm sure if I had that option back then, I would have taken. I eventually ended up taking that option, actually. Now that I think of it, but at the time I thought it was really neat to get in a car at 10 in the morning, take the long way, so to speak, get down there around 1130 noon, and be part of this kind of like carnival outside, especially in the later days. By the time I started driving down with friends in later 99 is when I actually started driving down. People were already lined up, like I like. We would show up the one time, I think we got there by like 11:30 We were nowhere near the first people in line outside of the arena, we were probably the 30th people in line, frankly, and I saw some crazy things in that line, you know. I think maybe only one or two things. The very final ECW arena show, I actually stood in line by myself, and I had a camera, and I shot footage, and I think maybe a total of 10 seconds made it into the film proper when we released it, and one of the scenes is actually like what I'm thinking of, which is that like people in line set fire to a bunch of like cardboard and discarded wood, because there's kind of this mythology about that area. It's really not a rough area, like if you go a block, like it's it literally is under I 95 and it's in kind of like this industrial kind of dead end, which is kind of commercial, low rent commercial space, and industrial park-ish stuff for a block or two, but if you go to the other side of 95 those are old ethnic neighborhoods, and I spent a lot of time in that area walking around, shooting footage in 2000 2001 2006 and then in the year before the film, carnivals in the summer. They're the kind of neighborhoods that still like get permits to close off roads and like rent those moon bounces, and like have vendors. Like, it's one of those neighborhoods where everybody kind of knows everybody, and they all know a guy who does something, so you can get these kind of things probably for free, and it's not rough, like I would. I have a nephew who's nine, I'd take him and walk around that neighborhood, you know. But on show nights, I wouldn't have taken him taken into Swanson and written a street. I'll tell you that, you know, the memory I was thinking of was these like set stuff on fire, and then we're chanting stuff, and I think partially that made it into the film. There was another where some underage kid was drinking like a handle of hard liquor all day, and then was out of his head and like slumped down against the post, and people were voyeuristically watching him, and then he threw. Up on himself, and just sat there, and people were chanting things, and it was both entertaining and bizarre. And now that I'm older, and kind of disgusting of people, still something that probably should be kind of documented. There's a good side and a bad side, all those things, and I think we definitely kind of touched on that in the film. If anything, my sadness is not being able to break it through to more non-wrestling fans, because they're such, like, you even joked about, like, there are people who probably turned off the podcast because they're like, "Oh, they're talking about wrestling and this guy did a wrestling thing. He probably, yeah, there's still this meme that, like, Dana White brought it up this week, you know, people who watch wrestling must not know it's quote unquote fake, which is a horrible word for it. It's kind of offensive, I think, and I think that's where the emotional knee-jerk reaction comes. I just don't think fans articulate it well because they get emotional, but it's this idea that you must be so dumb and low rent that you, you know, it's 1930 and you've been conned by the carnival that comes through during the summer, and that's not really it, you know. But unfortunately, it's a bad name, so we weren't able, except on very, in very small moral victories, to break it through to people who just were fascinated by sociological events and niche culture, it's in my opinion misunderstood, and that's really what the film was about, you know. I had some very combative interviews, I think, when I, when I promoted this the second time around. The first time around was Kickstarter to raise money, and you had to go - the wrestling circuit is where it kind of had to go, you know, so you try to intellectualize and talk about whatever, but you also have to be like, yeah, all your favorites will be here and all this stuff, and you're not lying, it's just you're playing your audience, and I think by the time it came out, and I would read reviews, we got a lot of positive reviews, but all the knocks would be like really to me fanboyish wrestling centric critiques, which I think is a generous word, considering what these people express, but that made me sad, because I realized that the film was being completely viewed, or 90 to 95% being viewed through the prism of pro wrestling and pro wrestling releases, and I think there was a massive difference between what we did and say what WWE would put out and call a quote unquote documentary, or what you know, even like high spots or RF video, you know, I get messages like, how come this is like this, because RF video did this, and I'm thinking, like, no offense to Rob, because obviously we licensed footage from him, and like, I have a fine relationship with Rob Feinstein, who the owner and operator of RF video, but like that, he's a rest, he's a guy who does wrestling tapes, you know, and I don't, I don't mean to say that derisively, but in comparison, when you're comparing like a documentary to like shoot interviews, that was really my beast, you know. Sorry, I'm jumping so far ahead, and like, your questions, yeah, that's something that was like, so, so these interviews like became sort of combative for me, like it became kind of like this intellectual battle to to make my point without being like a condescending dick to people, because I just I didn't have any more patience for like one interview was like the question wasn't, I would get these questions that weren't questions from these wrestling podcasts that were like the Dudleys in ECW, and now they've already seen my film, so they've seen us sort of take to task the idea that Paul Heyman allowed things to get out of control, and you know, the Dudleys would just go out there and bait fans, and it would result sometimes in, you know, at the low level, it would result in, like, yes, a lot of heat, but a lot of it was just creating an atmosphere that was kind of uncomfortable, unsafe for anybody who wasn't like a male in their early 20s who wanted to get drunk and like get crazy, and at its worst, it was like physical violence, you know, but the question will be like Dudley's UCW was pretty crazy, right? Where do you think it was crazier? Was it Dudley's crazier and failure in like the Elks Lodge? And so the whole premise of the question, it's not even like a really a question, it's more like, tell me how awesome it was that you guys did this, and I don't know that it was awesome, that's the thing, you know, like I don't, I think it was, you know, not even specifically the Dudleys, but the things that they were doing, I didn't think were necessarily good for them, I think it built on the cultishness, it built on the mythology, But I don't think that it helped them, obviously it didn't help them in the long run, you know. And I don't think it would be done, and well, certainly wouldn't be done today, because of the standards of the Lakespore usage, but also I don't think Paul Heyman would do it, even if those standards didn't exist. I think he would have realized and put the brakes on. One thing I do believe, when Paul Heyman has done interviews, and for some reason Steve Austin, like, really liked our film, and anybody who sort of even tacitly related ECW, he asks about, I all drove off the road the one morning when I downloaded the podcast to listen to him talk to Hayman, because to this day one of the most fascinating people that that I would ever research or would ever cover in any way, I think that I'll be 80 and I'll still, he'll still be top three at worst, and Austin brought Barbar City to him, and he said that he had never seen it, which may or may not be true, but that's kind of irrelevant to me. What's more relevant is that he said, you know, people always talk about the Hayman Kool-Aid, and all this. He's like, nobody drinks the Kool-Aid more than me, and you know, we kept damping up things, because part of the question, to Austin's credit, was about, like, you know, the violence, the way we covered the violence, and if he thought, looking back, it was necessary to go over the top, you know, did it hurt things in the long run, and his answer, I thought, was actually really honest for him, not that he's a liar, but I think he knows how to speak to an audience, you know what I mean, I think there's portions of truth, and there's portions of manipulation in anything he says, but he did say, like, he blames me, but I was the one drinking, like, it's my money, I was throwing all this money at this thing, and I believe him, you know, I believe, and I've talked to a lot of people that are, you know, that have been close to him, are still closer than, and UCW would have become very similar to early ROH, had it existed. It wouldn't have been a carbon copy of it, but that's the way he saw the landscape going, and it also would have had a much bigger mixed martial arts change to it. He saw that coming. I mean, I still see that guy as a visionary. If I had millions and millions of dollars, and I wanted to do something in the pro wrestling genre, or you know, or some version of that, I would be throwing money at Paul Hammond to join me.

Dave Bullis 32:36
Yeah, you know, when East W was in its death rows, I remember he was talking about bringing in guys like Spanky Brian, who was Brian Kendrick, guys like CM Punk. He actually had, yeah, Loki, he had, he actually was talking about these guys before anybody had a clue who the hell these guys were, and this isn't just him saying it's because they all brought this up too, that they were like, hey, you know, Paul Heyman, one guy who I know. Again, I'm sorry, going a little off topic here. One guy who I always wondered why he was in ECW was Mad Man Pondo, but that's a whole, you know, that I.. that's always something I'm always like, you know, I don't get why he, because he was wrestling in the 90s, yeah. And you know, a couple of, always wondering why he didn't go to ECW, even just for a tryout match, but any, but you know, but you know, with the way that's like I said, change, you know, I know, you know, in Japan they have a league that is similar to that, I think it's Pancreas, no, it's not Paincrease, is it what it's, could do, because they do like k1 fights, and they do some of like mixed martial arts, and they also have progressing bouts, and I can't remember the name of the company right now, top my head. Do you know what

John Philapavage 33:50
I know that those existed? Well, Pancras was the argument first pure MMA.

Dave Bullis 33:57
Yeah, as soon as I said, I know I was wrong. I'm wrong a lot on this podcast, by the way. John, just so you know, my audience knows not to believe a word I say about anything.

John Philapavage 34:11
Well, they basically like, there were several promotions, and I don't even know that they really exist in the form you're talking about now, but there were a bunch, like MMA and pro wrestling in Japan, even in the 70s, before MMA, like, really truly existed, like Antonio Inoki used to fight, used to always bring in people, and then smarten them up to, quote unquote, the business, like Muhammad Ali is the most famous example, and he didn't actually want to lose to Inoki, which is why they ended up having this horrible fight in Tokyo in 76 but like that whole mixed martial arts thing was a gimmick that Inoki did, because he had been to Brazil and trained jiu jitsu, but his goal was to make it so that pro wrestling was a fighting discipline, almost as like um. For work, okay. I'm trying to.. I should speak for the rest of the audience. He wanted to be part of storyline. That is the simplest way to put it. Was it the idea that pro wrestling itself was a fighting discipline, in the way we think of karate or jujitsu, or something like that, and he would bring these guys in and pay them a lot of money to lose to him these authentic people within their discipline to further the idea with his fan base that pro wrestling was a better fighting art, and that's really how UFC started, anyway. It was like the boxer versus the wrestler, or you know, this guy, you know, this guy does this versus taekwondo guy. So, yeah, I mean, that's always been intertwined in Japan, you know. That's why Pride was people look at Pride, which was an MMA organization that was huge in Japan, and they romanticize it, but like, if you go back, it's like a lot of pro wrestling stuff, or pro wrestlers fighting MMA fights, some of the finishes were like somewhat manipulated, you know, so yeah, that's existed,

Dave Bullis 36:04
Yeah. And, as you know, just as a side note, you know, guys like Sakuraba, you know, his whole style when he fought in Pride was Japanese professional wrestling, like when everyone had their, you know, they would say, like, their name, their weight, age, their weight, and the style, his style was Japanese professional wrestling, and that's, and that's when he was the Gracie Hunter.

John Philapavage 36:25
Yeah, I mean, and there's a guy who comes from UWFI. There were all these like splinter groups that splintered off of his little geek history for you and your listeners. In the 80s, there were all these like groups of people who trained in the New Japan Dojo, who then would be lower card guys, and then they'd split a group of them, would split her off, and they started like the UWF. Then there was a second UWF, and then there was the UW FI, which is something Universal Wrestling Blah Blah International, and they were like early stages of work shoots. Some of the sites would kind of be like real psychish thing, where they knew the finish, but they didn't care how they got there, and some of it was just a mimic, and the idea was like we're realer than pro wrestling, like those guys are phony, but we're real, kind of a thing, and that's where Sakura came from, and he would bounce in and out of New Japan, and he decided to be a straight up shoot fighter, and you know, tried to kill, I mean, look at the first try, pride only existed because I think, how do you say his last name, Tanaka or something? There's a wrestler, no, he, oh, I'm butchered, you know, I'm there, somebody yelling at their iPod right now, there's a gentleman who was, who was in the UWFI, and and was their champion, and then he had some big fights with when they were falling apart. He had title matches with the great Muda at the Tokyo Dome, and then another one, at least one more with Hashimoto, who was another new Japan star in the 90s. And then, and then the first pride was him, and he was essentially just a pro wrestler who pretended to be a shooter, you know, and he had, he had rudimentary skills for the times, sure, but he wasn't like, you know, Sakura, and the first pride was him versus one of the Gracies, who trounced him, by the way, and the big comeback was Sakuraba, you know, he was a Gracie honor, he was defending the honor of pro wrestling, that was the quote unquote storyline of this legitimate shoot promotion, you know. So they, they would blur lines too, even though they were, they were a shoot promotion in the way that pro wrestling would blur lines and work fights.

Dave Bullis 38:36
Yeah, I know who you're talking about. It's, I think it's pronounced no, you know, yeah, it's Takata, but it's a first names like Nobu keys, Caccato, yeah, Takata, you know, and I know, yeah, I know exactly what you mean, but, but, yeah, and you know, that's when all those promotions started, and I remember, you know, a lot of guys just sort of coming up at it, you know, through the ranks of pride, too, and you know that's we really to me that was the last time where you really saw somebody like the fighters who really knew what they were doing, and what I.. here's what I mean by that, they all had one style, meaning like soccer, Rob Hijab, professional wrestling, Mirko Crow Cop was a kickboxer, you know, Igor Chanchin, you know, he just did heavy boxing stuff like that. They didn't, you didn't see like the UFC. Now everyone sort of high as a hybrid style, where everyone does, you know, day one is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the next day some Muay Thai. You sort of get a jack of all trades and a master of nothing to a training like that, while in pride, I mean, you really could just tell just by the way the guy worked, that the way the guy fought, the way he moved, you know, whether he was like a Gracie guy or if he was a stand-up fighter, I mean, it just, I really wish it would go back to that in a lot of ways, and you're watching some of the Japanese fights now, it still is that way, because there's dream right now, and there's a guy that I, you know, absolutely love to watch, and that is, of course, I wonder, I just blanked out on his name, that is, I forgot his name, but I, I will post it in the show notes, I promise, unless I can remember it quickly, but I don't think I can, so, but you know, back to, you know, your, you know, everything was, you know, you, and in Barbed Wire City, you know, this documentary was about the subculture of ECW and all the crazy things, and professional wrestling, and people call it fake, but you know their injuries are all real, and you know if you've got guys being paralyzed, you've got some people real bleeding, and then it requires real, real stitches,

John Philapavage 40:58
It's just an irrelevant argument to me, because it's, it's like, it's like, if I really like the show Sopranos, and you kept telling me, and I would get, like, really into the storyline, and we were having a discussion, and you're like, "No, you know, it's fake, John, you know, they're not really mobsters, they're like fake. I'd be like, "Yeah, I know they're actors, I'm really into the show, the presentation. It's the way it's world building. They built it, built a world correctly. The narrative is good, and like that. I mean, I, you're doing a good job. You're giving the answer that a lot of, like, intelligent people give, but I even think that is almost too much of humoring these people who say these kind of things, because what they're inferring is that you're what they would call in wrestling a mark, which is kind of an offensive term for wrestling fans. It's like the N word in some weird ways, certainly not to that degree, but it's its derivative is from the carnivals, where, and I've heard different stories about, like, like kind of the mythologizing of the term, I think Dutch Mantell, in the late 90s, used to do a blog I read where he said he had always been told that when a carnival would come into town, they'd have a guy who went around and acted as though he, he was like poor and homeless and needed food, and if you know somebody was nice enough to give him food, he would mark with, like, chalk or something, marking a very subtle x in front of the gate to the house or the front walk, and what that meant was not that they were a mark, but that's what the term became, but it meant these people are willing, they'll kind of fall for your story, kind of a thing, but you can go house to house and get food or something like that. There was some sort of like manipulation there within that I'm that I'm kind of forgetting about, but that's one of the old wives tales that is probably not true, but is a great story. The point being is that Mark is this negative term, meaning that you're a fool. That is where it came from. When you're, when you, when wrestling people call, and it's not nearly as prevalent, because it's completely different. It's an entertainment industry now, but even, even in the late 90s, when ECW, ECW was like the last territory, you know, because wrestling needs to be in a territory system, and it wasn't a national thing, and there was some old school things, as they say in wrestling to it, and like calling somebody a mark is really like saying that they're a dumb person who believes that you're, you know, that you're balls mahoney, and you hit people with chairs in your daily life, and you're not John Reckner, and you don't have, like, a day chop or something, you know, or a cat or a wife, you know, you're dismissing logical sea monster who only comes out every third Saturday to the CW arena and tries to kill somebody for real, and I believe you, that kind of thing,

Dave Bullis 43:56
You're telling me Balsa Honey does not actually walk around blowing fire at any people with chairs.

John Philapavage 44:02
Well, now Baldone might, but it's another story entirely.

Dave Bullis 44:09
Yeah, like the one guy who I actually could seriously see living his gimmick 24/7 is New Jack.

John Philapavage 44:19
I think there's some validity to that. In a sense, he's crazy, but he's crazy like a fox. I was very impressed by him. He did his interview with me. Now, I told this story before, but you have a very different audience, and it's been at least two years. I was very nervous about interviewing Jack, and originally we were going to get him when we shot all the footage at the Extreme Reunion, which was a reunion of a lot of the ECW guys, and they were going to do a show. What was it at the point that they did the show? It was like 13 years or 12 years after it had shut down, something like that. And we had a room at the motel that they were all staying in, and we were grabbing people into. Interviews in our motel room, then across the hall we kept hearing this person yelling, and it's funny. Rob Feinstein, who I mentioned before, does this thing called shoot interviews, which is kind of a dying thing, because this podcast, because of what we're doing now. Back in the late 90s, he didn't create it, but he was one of the people who figured out how to monetize it, and it was before wrestling was very, very open as far as the gentleman wrestling talking as themselves, the person talking about their experiences. He would film that, and he would put it out on PHF tapes, and so he was actually doing one across the hall, and the person yelling and carrying on was Jerome Young, aka New Jack, and we put in a call to somebody working with us, who put in a call to Jack to get him across the hall to sit with us for 30 minutes, and he wanted to know how much we paid, and now we didn't pay for a single interview, so at that time he didn't want to do it, and then through some connections and machinations we ended up sitting down with him at one of these extreme, whatever that promotion became, they changed their name, extreme rising that was it, and he did the interview with me with a machete on his lap, and it was very.. I could.. Kevin did not feel terribly comfortable while shooting this, and I part of the gift of Jerome Young is that she's very charming, but he never wants you to fully feel comfortable. That's part of the control and the power of what he wants out of those situations, and so I pretty early on said I pointed to the machete on his lap and said, so is that so, is that for me? I forget exactly what I said, I would have nervous, I'm sure when I said it, but hopefully I pulled it off well enough. Basically, like that for me, if this goes bad, and he just gave me the crazy eyes, and then smiled, and I actually put me at ease, because it was one of those things where I was like, he knows what he's doing, like he's not, he's not here to mess with civilians, so to speak, in quotes, and we had the best interview, and in fact, like, I think on the DVD, we actually put an extra, like eight to four, it might have even been 14 minutes of like outtakes of stuff. He talked about so much stuff that had nothing to do with our narrative, but was so entertaining, and we put it on there. He is by far the person that non-wrestling fans come to me and say, I found him so funny, so entertaining, so charming, and all these things are true. And then I would say we finished signed the release with no trouble, and he made a joke, going like, you were nervous until I signed this, you know, making it, you know, official that we could use it. We shook hands, we chatted, we were packing up, and then he literally assaulted a fellow wrestler in front of us, and it scared the shit out of me, man. It was because you just see that visceral, real violence in front of you. It's, it's different, you know. I think at times we become desensitized, especially when we see it through a TV and things like that. You know, violence is an interesting thing to me, because I love MMA. I used to work briefly for about a year, year and a half. I worked, you know, part time for an MMA website or seven, and we used to go - we got press passes, and I would - I would be media at ringside and do live blogging and stuff like that. And it's kind of that same feeling, watch MMA on TV, and guys get knocked out, and you're like, "Oh, wow, that was great, and here they're alive, like you know, feet or meteor low. Generally, these things is like what, 10 to 16 feet away. It sits right there at cageside, and you get like these like light heavyweights, heavyweights in the ring, and they hit each other. You feel the vibrations, then there's that kick like out 15 feet away, and you cringe is very visceral and real, and in that moment you go like, "Oh, wow, that hurts. That doesn't just hurt, that could kill somebody if Dungall, you know, like that is something different. And that's kind of what I felt with Jack, like he's crazy, like a fox is the best way to put it. He knows exactly what he's doing at all times, and the trick is to charm you, but also make you think that this guy might do something. So, why did he assault another wrestler? That's the whole.. you know, what I don't even know that I can tell. I'll give you, like, the cheap version, because the truth is that it was very detailed, and I used to be able to tell it, but this happened like three years ago, and I don't remember exactly. There was a problem. Okay, so the other.. this isn't like non.. it's not common knowledge, but it's not like I'm not telling secret out of school, there had been a problem between New Jack and Balls and Pony, who we had mentioned before at the first reunion show, and this is the second one now, in like June, I think, and they had gone back and forth, and there was all this stuff, and like, in fact, when I got to the building, I ran into somebody who's like, "Are you interviewing Jack today? and I said, "Yes, and they said, "Oh, you better watch out, he hasn't generally heat, no, yeah, it was. He said he's gonna kill balls, and I kind of smirked and said, like, oh yeah, but see, I think I really think that Jack was working in again. I have to explain for people to understand. I think there's a weird thing about wrestling, part of Jack's income over the last decade, because he pretty much can't get a job with wrestling industry, shrinking his style, going out of vogue, some, and him just kind of being a nutty guy, it's hard for him to get work within wrestling, and part of his income was derived from doing shoot interviews, and he's smart, like I said, so Jack knows to do a shoot interview and have people buy it, and therefore make yourself a commodity that can demand, you know, two grand or four grand, or whatever you were getting paid for just sitting down and telling stories for three hours on one day. You've got to have stories, so if you do a lot of shoot interviews, you run some stories, and people don't want to buy it anymore. And I think that Jack likes creating hysteria, so that he would be more marketable. That's part of that whole Carney thing, that wrestler persona. And I really believe that Jack, I had a conversation with him earlier in that week where it seemed we were met in person because he was in town in Philly, and it was for that we both had to be somewhere for different reasons, and we ended up being around each other for about two hours, and talking for about almost one of them. I would say we did most of my talking with him, and my impression is that he knew that he didn't really have a problem with John Reckner, the person, or Balzac Mahoney, the character in real life, but he was creating one, and if he pushed hard enough, balls would say something that would lead to there being more kind of hysteria around it. This is how goofy wrestling is. I think that he was creating a situation, like in wrestling tolerance, they would call it working angle, but in real life he was kind of creating this storyline in real life, and not.. and I don't think balls, mining knew that he was part of a fake story, you know what I mean. So apparently, and I don't even think that this was true, but I was told, well, you know, balls is balls, no one is in the building already. Okay, so they're really gonna be a thing. He's like, oh yeah, balls showed me got like a little gun or something in his bag, and I'm like, so I was on edge, and and then he walked up to him, and balls might have said, like, two words, like balls tried to talk to him, like, and this wasn't other than myself and Kennedy. There was nobody in this room that was a fan or something, you know. It's like Stevie Richards was in the room, John Finnegan. It was a people I was friendly with, actually. You know, John Finnie is an old referee for ECW, and he's worked a lot of other places. He wasn't trying to fool fans to make money in that way in that room, but he was for real. Like, I, it's so weird, the psychology of these, especially I don't feel like the newer wrestlers, that's the thing they see it as entertainment. They all grew up on WWE, and they want to be good corporate citizens and apply their trade for the most part, or do it for the art. You know what I mean. The journeymen who get a lot of buzz on the internet, they do it kind of for their art, and because they love it, and in some cases, because they don't want to grow up, because you get to be an angel of the baldies for me from later today. ECW said to me, he's like, it's like you're always in high school, and every weekend is like a high school party, you know? You never have to leave. I think that all these factors go into this kind of thing, and then after a while, you don't know what else to do. It's not a transferable skill, pretending artfully to beat somebody. Got plan isn't something that you can go across the street and say, hey, I would like to sell cars for you, or I would like to sit in a cubicle and do tech support for your tech company. So, in this case, Jack created something, and I guess balls kind of fell for it, and that's all he needed, and he just walked up to him and punched him in the face a million times, and to Ball's known his credit, he never tried to strike Jack, which is, you know, somebody hit you in the face, you know, as soon as he just defended himself in covering up and kept trying to talk sense to him, you know what I mean, and I will admit that I'm the person who finally said, you know, this is going on way too long, and I ran and got one of the promoters, and I got Atlas Security, and they ran in and clapped.

Dave Bullis 55:54
Well, that is a hell of a story. I could definitely, you know, I remember seeing something about that a couple years ago with balls and new jet had a problem with one another.

John Philapavage 56:07
Postscript, by the way, they did do a shoot interview with Rob Feinstein.

Dave Bullis 56:12
Yes,

John Philapavage 56:12
Afterwards, and I've never seen the whole thing, but from what I saw by that point everybody was clued in, wink wink. I mean, Rob did this. I don't know, I haven't talked to Robin in quite a while, but Rob swore to me, even after it was shot, that, oh, it was real, and we got an off-duty police officer, And I was kind of shocked, because either he was trying to, quote unquote, work me, as they say in wrestling, which is like, do the whole fake thing, do the lie thing, or he just really believed it was real, and he pissed away money on an undercover cop to do security for this. No, I, by that point, I don't think that I think everybody knew what was going on, so to say, but they made their money.

Dave Bullis 56:56
Yeah, and you know that whole thing, you know, this whole story kind of reminds me of, you know, some of the obstacles you'll face when making a movie, but these are some of the obstacles you face, you know, making this documentary was, you thought that some of your, your, the people you're interviewing were going, you saw some of your subjects, you know, were going to assault you at any time, particularly New Jack,

John Philapavage 57:18
Yes, or lie to me, that was another thing, there's a lot of, we had so many theoretical slash, I hate to use this word because it's used in a dirty way, which kind of sucks, but intellectual debates, and what would, what would you call it, we would watch footage and there'd be three people saying three different things, and we would have to talk about, like, and it's also dealing with wrestling. You're dealing with something where people within that industry, they interchange truth and the real world with what they call working, which they have their own term for lying. It's called working. It's okay if you flat out lie to somebody, even like your wife or your best friend, if you're working now, if you're lying, that's horrible, you know. But if you work somebody, that's okay. So we would have these debates where you'd sit at the end of the day, but two of us would finally like kind of like shy and look at each other, and he has a return saying, like, do we know that so and so thinks this, or that he believes this, or do we know this to be true? Because now I'm the go-to wrestling guy, so I have to talk about the backstory of these things, and like what I've learned through research. So, a lot of this game was knowing all the stuff, you know, I did a lot when we, when we decided to finally do this and finish it. I spent two months diving back into every piece of notes, and then every, every, like I mentioned in newsletters before. I read every newsletter saying about ECW at that time. I would call journalists, and I'd have off the record chats about things, and that gets murky too, because the journalists aren't buddies, and they have different masters they're serving within, like any reporter has sources in that industry that they are trying to protect, and that might be personal friends, and they all have different perceptions about things, and so it can be a mess to untangle, you know, you have to worry about there were a lot of times when I interviewed somebody and they'd say something and I'd either my first, you know, cynical thought was, "Well, they're lying to me. Well, this is great. And then, you know, I'd watch the tape again, and I think, you know, I put all the pieces together and go, they probably think what they're saying is true. Now that I think of it, it's not. I know it's not that they don't know, you know, I mean, like, look in the movie, Balds Mahoney thought that ECW was being restructured. You know, I was, uh, I was barely 20 when I did that interview with him, and I had the legal documentation of the filing of Chapter 11. And I, you can see it in the film, we're talking about it, and he's like, "Oh, yeah, Chapter 11, restructuring. Yeah, there's a lot that you don't know that I can't say. And what are you supposed to say to that guy? Like, you know, no offense, but I'm pretty, you know, even being 20, I was relatively well connected. Obviously, I'm doing this project, you know, so I knew what the score was on that, but obviously his head had been killed by, you know, not only wanting to believe these things, because who wants to lose what they consider their dream job, but he also probably had people telling him just hold on, just hold on, you know. I got that a lot from people, even well, you know, 12 years after the fact, when interviewing people, you know, I have a whole role of people saying they just wanted, talking not only about wanting to believe, but talking about their emotions, either if they went to the last show and noble, nowhere that they, that they did, or several months later, when Paul Heyman, the owner of ECW, walked on to WWE live broadcasts, they do every Monday, which is raw, that's a big topic, topic with people, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:01:19
Yeah, and you know, again, you know, for all the listeners out there, you know what John is talking about is, you know, for anyone making a documentary, you know, he had to worry about, you know, not only obstacles of, you know, someone's gonna assault him, but also, you know, people were, would actually lie, and you know, I have had other people who've done documentaries about different subjects, and you know, that's some of the things that they have to worry about, too. Is mainly that, and I'm glad you brought up John. Is are people telling the truth? Because this is, you know, sometimes it's basically like the truth according to them. If you know what I mean, there's an old saying, and I forget who said it, but you know, there's there's there's three versions of the truth, there's your version, my version, and the truth, or what really happened, and I mean, you know, and you know, you took, you know, you just said, you know, you took over what, 12 13, years to, you know, get all this documentary footage and put it all together, and, and actually make it, I mean, so you, you were in this for the long haul to make this documentary,

John Philapavage 1:02:22
Yeah, I'm always quick to state just because I'm like an obsessively factual person, and I don't like, I don't really like mythologizing what I do at all, because I feel that flying and that phony, and I always think, like, well, if you go with this, you're gonna get trapped in Ohio one day, we weren't working every day for 13 years. We were working a lot in 2000 a ton in 2001 a little bit in 2002 Then it sat on the shelf, and then I think, oh, five, we worked for like half a year on it, and it sat on the shelf. And like, during this period, there would still be times where, like, you know, somebody would call me and go, 'Is Paul Heyman's email. Do you want to talk to him, blah blah blah blah blah, or here, do you want to talk to so and so, and this and that. And then I think once we made the decision in late January, early February of 2012 at that point it became an every day, 12 hours a day thing until not just the premiere, like I'd say until probably July, July of that year, every day, because that is the thing that you know there's so many things to worry about, like you talk about documentaries, like another thing you stress about is releases. Well, this person said a release, oh, this person walked in, I had one shot during the balls, I see the same people keep coming up, it's so goofy. You think this film was like so super balls, Mahoney centric. During my initial interview with Balls Mahoney in Virginia in 2001 a gentleman named Rob Van Dam, well, that's his wrestler name, walked in purposely, in fact, walk into the shot to say hi to Ball and to say some stuff to the camera, and then you know, follow that up by like, if you want to use this, you need to release, you need to talk to my agent. Now, he had no idea, and I already spoken to his agent the month before to try to get him. At the time, he was a hot commodity, I think he ended up in the WWE within by the summertime, and his agent wanted, like, two grand to sit down and talk to him. He just thought it was impossible for these people to wrap their head around the idea that anybody outside of the wrestling world would want to talk to these people, and in the wrestling world you get paid for it because they're shoot interviews. Like, now that's broken down again, but especially at that time, and it didn't help that I had been a wrestling fan, and that was, that was another pitfall, too. How much do I tell these people in pre-interview stuff? Not only when I make the call and we confirm everything, but I like to talk to my subjects, because I'm, I'm kind of a believer, like I'm in charge of the room, like Kevin would come and he would do all the tech, and he would film it, and then I would. Allow him for the co-creative process, you know, whatever is on my end, he has feedback on, whatever is on his end, I have some sayings. So, during the interview, I would, I would, he would just interrupt here and there if he thought I missed something, or if I would turn around and say, "You have anything at this point? He may or may not have, but in the room, before you even turn the cameras on, these people are picking your brain and trying to see what your quote unquote angle is, because they come from a world where everybody has an angle on screen and off. So then I learned very quickly to minimize the fact that I was a fan, because they view fans as the lowest common denominator. I mean, kind of the way people argue that WWE promotes to their fans, they're thinking of the dumbest yokel who doesn't understand anything and needs complete expository dialog and very simplistic angles with no kind of like real shades of gray. That's kind of how I felt a lot of wrestlers viewed fans, and it was my job to control my perception, I felt to get the interviews and to continue dialogs and get people to sign releases, and I'm not saying lie to people, but I just mean by the time we came back to it, I was a lot older and I knew how to like present myself, whereas I'm, I think I did an okay job when I was like 18 19, 20 21, years old, but I would get very nervous, and I didn't always know how to answer a lot of questions about things, you know, and by that time I knew that we didn't come back to it because I was a wrestling fan, and I always thought that's something that I think there was a big push in my interviews, too, was like, without asking me, they, I was being presented on radio interviews and podcasts as like a super fan, and they thought that helped, because in their mind it was awesome that a fan was doing this, and this was some kind of love letter to UCW, and that's not what it was at all, my job as a filmmaker was to document the truth, which was hard to get at. Some people would say, well, what is this? Is this just like an attack piece, or is this like they basically want to know there the paradigm they kind of set up, you know, was it's either a something that's relatively promotional, where they can lie, where they can just, you know, make up their own reality, or be I must be trying to get it on all things negative and bury them because they're martyred. That was part of the CW fanship, was that you were you were part of a revolution, you were part of something very like guttural and DUI, and you were a family, and anybody against you, there was a martyrdom about them, and there was, you know, it was the term revolution, and what it really means, you know what I mean, it's people kind of getting together, almost like a what do they call that, a flash mob of sorts, and doing something about a regime, it's usually political and involved countries and wars, and it's about a regime that you think is wrong, you know what I mean. There's all these ideological things that are attached to it, but basically that's what I had to penetrate. So it's like at least the regular documentary, if I was documenting, I don't know, an interesting guy who I don't know, like made billions off of popsicle sticks, and then disappeared, and I had the one interview with him, at least, like when I'm interviewing his family and everybody else, and then I finally do an interview with him, but they're not gonna.. I don't think they're necessarily gonna go into it thinking that I'm a bad guy, you know what I mean, or thinking that they need to feel me out, you know what I mean, and every everybody either like was questionable about us or didn't want to do it at first, and all these things, and like the funny thing was a lot of these people would be interviewed by me, and I don't know, I think it's almost egotistical to say that they respected me, because I think they did, probably, but it's not like somebody said I really respect you, and even if they did, I'd be like, well, you're a wrestler, so I don't know if that's true, because you'll just say things, maybe you want me to edit you favorably, because you just thought of something you said in like the 40th minute that we, you probably shouldn't have said, but I do, but the one thing that came out of it was a lot, a lot of referrals, a lot of our, you know, jumping through to get everybody had to do with one person liking us after the interview and saying that we were fair and that we were thorough and that we were that we presented ourselves well and wanting the project to succeed, and therefore calling other people and saying hey, and vouching for us, essentially saying hey, these guys are doing this documentary, and I think we were also very lucky, because when we started, we were just young enough and dumb enough to be likable, apparently and not a threat, and at the same time professional, professional enough to get in the room with these people, you know, which is like perfect. We lucked out, because if they thought we were just super fans, he had nothing to do with us, but if they thought we were like real journalists, well, the first thing you thought, especially when we started, the first thing you thought was, oh well, this is going to be, is this real or fake, and just an attack piece about how disgusting it is, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:10:38
Yeah, I, and you know, I know exactly what you're saying, and you know that that is also something you know that's important, is you know how you matured as a filmmaker, and how you choose an interviewer when you were going from, you know, obviously when you're interviewing them from your 20 to a few years later, but you know, you know a lot of what you're saying there is so important because when another, you know, some people, some of you are trying to make a documentary, they always wonder, how likely is it I'll be able to get to these people, because eventually, you know, you're going to have to, you know, talk to me if you want to do a documentary on the Beach Boys, for instance, at some point you're going to have to sit down with them and talk about them, otherwise it's just sort of this piece that sort of is about them, that now you know what I mean, not with them, but about them. I don't know,

John Philapavage 1:11:26
Then do they want, they want a piece of the action financially, do they want creative control? There's all these things. Yeah, I mean, we talked about that, even after, after Barbara City, is like, oh, what's the next project? And we took a little time to decompress and run the business aspect of it, and then you come up with ideas, and then you'd right away. I always think in terms of like logistics of the filmmaker, because one of the other big things, licensing, not just bringing people to sign releases, but licensing. So somebody would say something, an idea, Kevin, I would kind of studio kick around ideas, and I don't know, maybe he'd say something, trying to think of, he never said this, but I'm making this up. He'd say a comic book writer that was really hot a decade ago, Bendis. I forget, I forget his phone in, but I'm just gonna use him, so right away. Well, if you're gonna do a documentary about Bendis, and you know under the premise, like, well, he changed the way comic books are. It's okay. Well, first we have to prove if that's true or not. That's not really my genre. It's just kind of something that peripherally was, you know, I had friends that would tell me about him, but right away it's like, okay, well, where did he raise, where did he grow to be? Well, he writes like half of Marv Marvel's monkey book. Okay, well, now that's a problem, because you can't do a good vendor documentary unless you get Marvel on board, because you're going to need to show the stuff he drew or that he wrote, right? And that's in that a Marvel thing. Well, who owns Marvel? Oh, Disney. Okay, now you're dealing with Disney. How do you deal with Disney like those are the kind of things we'd have to talk about and think about and logistics. Oh, well, where did he live? Okay, well, who are the main players you'd also want to interview? Well, you do two months of research and you come back and you go like these 10 people, where do they live? California, Florida, Arizona. Well, okay, now your costs just went up obscenely because you've got to get them to say yes, and you have to have a few days in all these things, you need dominoes to fall. That was a big thing, a huge thing for us very early on was getting Todd Gordon. I remember I would bump him on the phone all the time, and when I lived in Philly, I went to the University of the Arts with Cam, and his jewelry shop was maybe a mile away, and I would walk there once a week and bug him. It's like this 19 year old kid, and he'd say, "Well, who do you have? And I remember saying to him, like, the three interviews we had at the time, like my marquee guy was like John Bailey, the Straw Hat guy, who, for those of you who don't know, was a guy who sat in the front row of every CW Arena show from the beginning, and he was just part, he was emblematic of the fans, you know, and he said, "John, you seem like a really nice kid, and I respect it, like you just don't want to give up, but you know, my time is really precious, and I've only ever done one other interview since I left UCW, and Todd, by the way, in case I get buried the lead on this, as the founder and the original owner of ECW, and he basically said to me, like, I don't know that I have time to do an interview where the only other guy participating is like the straw hat guy, and thankfully I said okay, and I didn't know what to say to that, and I called him back, and I pledged to him, I pleaded with him rather, and I said, "Todd, you know, I get where you're coming from. I totally do. You're that person, though. When other people ask who you have, I'm going to say Todd Gordon, and then we go from there, like, just give me a chance, and we didn't have all of our stuff to. Other, necessarily, like it was just so wide at that time, so my questions were like five pages instead of like a one sheet, and he sat through two and a half hours of us, you know, doing this stupid interview, and he made calls for it, to his credit, you know, that's the kind of stuff, though, that's the stuff you work about, getting these people dominoes falling, dealing with Disney, for us, a lot of it was, did you know, did Paul talk to you? Did Paul Heyman talk to you? Well, no. Well, I don't know if I want to talk to Paul, didn't, and those, a lot of those people came back and apologized to me once we did it, and said, I'm sorry, you know, I was worried about, you know, my where I was going to go after you, she got you, and you know, I didn't want to offend Paul, and this and that, in case you know jobs, because he was tied in with WWE, which is the biggest, you know, pro wrestling company in the world, kind of monolithic now, and some of them even ended up doing interviews with us after the fact.

Dave Bullis 1:15:56
Have you ever seen Escape from Tomorrowland?

John Philapavage 1:16:01
I never finished it. Yeah, that's the gorilla, the one you know, very stylistic gorilla filmmaking in Disneyland. Yes, was it Disneyland or Disney World? It was one of them. Yeah, they went in and they.. yeah, that's fascinating. That whole story.

Dave Bullis 1:16:16
Yeah, I.. I actually saw that one day on a whim, and I was just blown away by, for a couple reasons. First off, I got it, you know, it was kind of David Lynch in going for the other part of it was I had to look up to see what did Disney think of this, and there's a fascinating story behind it, but I, you know, I will link to that in the show notes, though. Everybody, but there's just a lot of moving parts, and Disney did find out about it. But you know, I don't want to take.. I don't want to take away your story time.

John Philapavage 1:16:55
Well that's nice of you.

Dave Bullis 1:16:58
To start talking about, you know, escape from tomorrow, but you know one thing I wanted to ask you about, you know, you ran a successful Kickstarter for this, so you know what, what sort of tips could you sort of give that you, that you could give to any, any people out there who are thinking about making a documentary and putting it up for crowdfunding?

John Philapavage 1:17:19
I have a big caveat to that, I may not, I might have more, but off the top of my head, my biggest one is I ran the campaign from mid August till mid September of 2012 So basically, we're coming up on the anniversary, is three year anniversary of running that campaign. I don't know what the perception, and or as fat, if you want to call it, of Kickstarter is that I know there was a lot of pushback from some people, the idea that you're giving away free money to people, and I know that some people on Kickstarter have famously burned people, the one that the one that I saw that always sticks with me, and this was thankfully well after we had made the film, or a year after, there was a guy who, like, yes, he was writing like trade paperback novels, I think that was it. Anyway, something printed, and he collected all the money, he actually made them, but he was doing everything by himself, and there's a bit of a temperamental arty type, and this is the problem, is like, you're dealing both the beauty and the horror of it is, you're dealing with artists most of the time. Now, some of the stuff is just pure commercialism, sure, on a low level, but, like, I mean, you're dealing with us. I'm not.. I know that this is another kind of, like, intellectual.. this is another dirty word.. artist. I never wanted to be an artist when I was younger. I wanted to be in the entertainment business, you know, that's how I look at it. And what's funny is, most people, when they're teenagers, they want to be artsy, and then they kind of quote unquote sell out and just want to be, they understand how business works, and they're willing to make concessions to be in the industry of their choice, and they know the reality of it, and it happened in the opposite way for me, because I wanted to be an entertainer. It was funny, like I would joke with Kev when we got older, like I was more vocal about it, but I, but he went along with it, and I think he, I think he admitted to me at one point he did feel this way too, when we were like, you know, 16 through like 24 we we wanted to be not literally rock stars like communications, we wanted to be rock stars who make films, we wanted to be media presences, you know what I mean, that was part of it, and we didn't want to just make crap, sure, but we wanted to be personalities first and foremost, I think, and what changed in both of us, especially me, more me than him, was that I really became more of an artist, and I think people are embarrassed to say things like that because they think it sounds pretentious, there's this whole cliche around it, and a lot of times I think people are afraid of it because. When you call yourself that, I think they think it infers like that you're successful, that your art is valid, and that your art is something really deep, you know. It's really, it's something that a normal person might not understand anything, and that's just not true. That's not fair. You don't have to have commercial successes to be artsy or think like an artist, so to speak. And that's something I slowly came to grips with. That's just kind of how I am, you know. They tend to be, I'm not a money person. Geez, I've given.. we have nobody shoots yourself in the foot or drops things on principle more than getting in and I, and we have real far less money to show for it. And in some cases, it was when it came down to it, it was about like I don't want to do something and look back in five years and be like, well, I did that for money, you know, because that's what is that, that's a prostitute. There's one thing like that, like, look, we all have to work day jobs a lot of time, most of us do. That's when I have to be a prostitute, you know. I don't want to do it with something that I feel passionate about, so yeah, I'm sorry, you get off on a whole thing. So my point is that artists, and thank you for sitting through this time again. I really do enjoy doing these things, and just talking to people, you know what I mean? Like, I hope I don't come off as somebody who's in love with their own voice, because I just, I love the back and forth, and the sharing, and all the stuff, and talking about these experiences. Yeah, you had asked about Kickstarter, you're dealing with temperamental artists a lot of time, and that can be troubling. And the biggest, I always think of this guy who collected all this money, he was doing everything by himself, and he got sick of. and I've experienced this too. Look, whenever you do, I think that the final tally for us was like 440 some people gave us money, maybe it was 480 some, it was just below 500 There's 500 separate entities giving you money, you know, most of the time it's person to person, and they believe in you enough that they gave you money, or at least your product is interesting to them, but the percentage of them are just going to be crazy people, and I don't literally mean crazy people, like you know, they would be in a mental institution, I mean they don't, that they're just not the type that have a lot of social graces, and they're dealing with you through a computer anyway, you know, so they can say whatever, so I guess this guy was.. I've dealt with it too, but I guess this guy could not deal with people going, "Where is this? I paid for this, I'm going to sue you, or some, some such nonsense, you know. And some people will probably, you know, I think the pressure probably got to the guy, just.. I'm sure some people were just like, "Hey, man, give your money six months ago, where's the books, you know, and so he puts up a video on Kickstarter of himself yelling basically the people who paid for this and burnt, and then shows video of him burning the first, like 300 or something crazy, he threw them all in a fight. He threw the first run of it in a fire pit and started burning them, and then threatened, like a hostage situation, threatened to keep burning the rest if he got any other messages, and said you'll get them when you get them, basically. And stuff like that gave, like, you know, artists on there like bad press. I don't know that the golden goose has kind of been killed. I know that in wrestling, I remember I remember being interviewed, actually, by Mike Jonathan Backsneijia, the show about three and a half months before the premiere, and he taught we were talking about Kickstarter on, and I think the video is still on YouTube. I'm much fatter, I won't watch it anymore, but um, he, uh, he asked me about Kickstarter, and I said I worried that people were going to kill the golden goose, and the question was specific to wrestling documentaries, because there was a whole rash of them at the time, and I learned nothing too. Even people would come up to me and ask me for advice, and they tell me their idea, and I'm just thinking, like, you know, I don't know that I'm necessarily even a filmmaker to this day, you know, in a true sense, but I have some know-how, and certainly Kevin Kiernan does too, and we accomplished a goal, and we had something behind it that was more than ain't this cool, and I was talking to people who seemed like really nice kids, who I could just tell I'm like, this is going to be a disaster, and this is going to hurt anything going forward for wrestling documentaries, and I don't know whether that completely bore out, but I do think that the fad kind of died down somewhat. I think the biggest thing is to personalize it to get people that you're not selling your film necessarily, or whatever your artistic endeavor is. Is you're selling that in tandem with yourself, and hopefully you find something like I was smart enough to know that I had to appeal to the wrestling internet wrestling and newsletter reading population. It was the only way that I was going to get enough money to properly fund this, you know, with all the licensing and all the other costs. Budgeting is really important, you know. I'm jumping around here. I apologize again. Basically, when you do these interviews, you have to talk about your real story and why you care about this thing and why it's relevant, and you have to convince people. And another thing is that this is what we realized for doing this, is we should have been picking a pre-order system. There's this idea that you're getting free money to do something. Actually, we screwed up our budget because the person who did our budget, who isn't myself or Kevin, and I don't want to say the person's name, because we have no relation to them anymore, but he was another person who was helping to produce this, and it's kind of a deal with the devil thing. After a while, and I knew that deep down, but I didn't want to fully deal with it, you know, because I needed this to get done. I didn't want to die knowing, like every few years people would say, 'Hey, man, whatever happened to that documentary ship? Yeah, I never did it. You know, I never completed it. I couldn't, I couldn't bear it. So I had the opportunity, and I had to be talking with the ones I did. Once you go down that road, you know, you're you're either all in and you're not. And unfortunately, we didn't have a proper budget, because not only is a pre-order system like it's basically like, hey, you give me money to complete the film and you'll get the film, but it's also, you have to give so many gifts that, like, I think, honestly, we probably spent, like, a third of the budget on, I mean, that's not a completely factual figure, but a good percentage of the budget went all the gifts we had to give people, because, first of all, even the film, even if you pledged just to get the film, I had to print the film myself. I had to send it to disc makers and get it professionally done. There's a cup, there's cover I had to pay for that, you know. Mass production, mailing it out myself, you know. So then you got to deal with, like, shams.com or the post office every day. Posters, posters cost money. Well, one of the, one of the things that made this possible is funny. I, you know, I haven't spoken publicly about this, haven't done this. The gentleman who co-hosts Ric Flair's podcast, Conrad Thompson, he's really the person who made this possible. At the end of the day, because I was, we were down, we had used up 20 of our like 30 days on Kickstarter, and we still had it was going to come down to the wire, if you did the math on it, it was like if we incrementally average this much every day, which we have been, we may or may not have this still at the 11th hour, and a gentleman named Conrad Thompson saw it on, I believe, Dave Meltzer's website, who is the author and editor of Wrestling Observer newsletter and website, and he gave us, I think, four grand, thanks, good amount of money, but here's the thing, because that, that at that level, I then had to go get a wrestler and fly to him and give him a private screening the week before, and that's costly, you know, for some reason, he really wanted Jane Douglas.

Dave Bullis 1:28:43
Oh, cool.

John Philapavage 1:28:44
Who's Troy Martin? And it was really.. I got to be is really neat. We flew down there. Conrad has a beautiful home. And real quick to wrap that up, once Conrad did this, it became obvious to everybody they're going to make it, and that's the funny thing, people, you realize in hindsight, people weren't giving you money, not because they didn't care about the film, but because they weren't, they were a lot of people still to this day think that you donate money and then never get it back, which isn't true, I never, and I also never had the other misnomer is that I handle your money. I don't know if it's exactly the same, but at that time, Amazon Payments, which was a subsidiary of amazon.com they did all the financial work for Kickstarter, and they take that's the other thing, they take a percentage, Kickstarter takes a percentage, Amazon takes a percentage, so off the top, 10% gone, roughly. You get, you don't get the money until you don't see any money in your bank account until like three weeks after this thing closes. If it's successful, but because it was successful, because Conrad did that, rather it exploded, and we actually got.

John Philapavage 1:30:10
More money than we had asked for, and thank God we did, because every penny got spent, man. Because nobody did a budget on what it would cost, what it would cost to get Shane Douglas on board, for that we were friendly with him, but he wasn't going to take a weekend away from his family, his boys to go to this place without, you know, being flown there, being, you know, being put up at least in a hotel, you know, and then we had to fly there because I had to be here too, you know, and it was a great experience, you know. Shane actually spent the entire afternoon answering every question in Conrad, Conrad, Conrad, and his family had probably the greatest shoot interview ever, in that you're it's an interactive shoot interview with a real human being who's not, who's not being filmed, and therefore not playing up things, and and then we all watched the movie together with Shane and myself commenting to Conrad, almost like a live director's cut before the film even used people, so this is really great experience, but it was a closely experience, had to rent the arena, which is a story within itself. That arena, we weren't going to get that arena until two months and a half before the premiere. It was announced the day we signed the deal. We did not think we were getting that building for the longest time, and we were worried about where in Philly there was going to be a career, actually.

Dave Bullis 1:31:43
Where in Philly's gonna be a career?

John Philapavage 1:31:46
No, a premiere.

Dave Bullis 1:31:47
Oh, premiere.

John Philapavage 1:31:47
Where we were gonna debut our film, you know. So, I guess be yourself, show your passion, answer every question, have an answer for everything. Hopefully, you pick a topic that has a fan base where there is media to promote to those people, because imagine if I picked I did the best documentary ever on checkers, which sounds silly, but I've seen some documentaries, honestly, where I didn't know anything about the subject, but I took a chance, and I said, this is amazing, and it doesn't matter if you're a fan of this or not, and that's kind of my pitch for my own film, Byron City. I mean, it's not really about wrestling, it's about culture, it's about the culture, it's a journey of people, and in this case, they don't, at the end of it, you know, Rocky doesn't win, you know, they don't win, that's the crazy thing about it, and like, where are they now, and how has this affected their lives, you know? So, yeah, I would sell all the things I just said, plus budget correctly, and realize that you are going to have to pay, realize 10% is coming off the top right away, and realize that you have to pay for all these benefits that you're giving to people, so that they will give you money. That's crazy thing. You're every time somebody pledges, you're closer to goal, and yet sort of further away if you don't budget properly, because they're they pledge, and I've never done the math on it, because I'm afraid to, and now it's over, and I don't have to. But there were certain pledges where I'm sure that at the end of the day it was kind of like, well, we're giving all that money back. I don't actually even remember how much it cost to fly down to see Conrad and to bring Shane and all that stuff. We probably gave so much money back to Conrad at the end of the day.

Dave Bullis 1:33:36
Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things I've, you know, learned about in crowdfunding campaigns from doing them too, is the perks, is you know the perks can get you, and we've had, you know, other filmmakers on here like Dawn Fields, who spoke a lot about that, and crowdfunding gurus like Eli Rigollatto, who would always talk about that too. So, I mean, that's good, you know, now, John, because if you do another one at some point, you know, you have that knowledge to build that into the price points, so you can break the breakdown list, so you know if it's $100 perk. Okay, well, we're getting $60 back, that's 60% of the perk, and $40 goes to the entire cost of making it, and you know stuff like, you know, and I think that is invaluable, because I mean everyone makes mistakes with our first crowdfunding campaign, you know. I certainly did, and I know other people have as well, but you know, and that is an amazing perk, by the way, is having somebody actually fly down to watch the documentary, because that's something you know, if I had the extra money, that would, that would be a perk that I would have looked at as well, because that sounds absolutely phenomenal, especially being able to get the wrestler, I don't know if I would have picked Shane Douglas, though, I may have actually picked, for the hell of it, the blue meanie, because I think he'd be a silent

John Philapavage 1:34:44
Pushing that, because it would have been so much easier, and he was a personal friend of mine. I pushed meanie because it was one thing I was scared to death of, like, what if they pick like me, then I have to fly new check down there, like maybe I'm the zero to hell room with him, because of cost, I don't know, you know, and I will, and I. I feel young, but I also, who knows what's going to happen here. I mean, it's kind of like having that crazy friend you take to a bar in your early to mid 20s, and you're like, oh, Jimmy, Jimmy's a great guy, he's a little like he plays it fast and loose sometimes, you know, every third time Jimmy's starting a fight, he walks up a few weeks and he's like, hey, man, that group of guys give me a dirty look. I'm gonna jump one of them. You got my back. You know, I have been in that situation with people, and then, like, oh my god, Jimmy's become a liability. Like, I don't think we could go out with Jimmy anymore. That's what I was afraid of with doing this. So, I was, I had a conversation where I was like, Conrad, don't you like the Blue Mini? Isn't the Blue Mini the coolest? How about Jerry Lynn? You know who's really cool and loves cats. Amy Richards loves cats. Let's all hang out. He picked Shane and Miller. It worked out great. I had a great time, and I am forever thankful to Conrad, who is a really fun, cool guy.

Dave Bullis 1:35:58
You know, what would be funny if he had picked someone like the Sandman

John Philapavage 1:36:03
That would have been trouble. Yes, that would have been trouble.

Dave Bullis 1:36:06
I have actually been around the salmon before, in like non-wrestling, you know, non-wrestling environment, and he is a guy who was exactly the same smokes like a chimney, is you know that this was like 2004 I met him again, but actually I heard recently that he's a completely clean and sober now.

John Philapavage 1:36:32
That's really good, because I know he, a few years ago, had some trouble and lost a lot of very long time friends who ended up kind of cutting him off. I mean, this is what I was told. It's hearsay, but I have it from very good sources. Certain people that are identifiable to him don't talk to him anymore, or they didn't for her quite a period of time. So that's the first time hearing that. I think that's really great. I didn't have the greatest experience with him in 2001 but I will say by the end of this whole thing, I heard a lot of horrible things about him. I've seen him be a really trashy guy and say a lot of horrible things, but having said that, my lasting memory of him, so you, he died tomorrow. The story that I would tell is I was at, you know, filming at one of the extreme reunion, extreme rising shows, and I went out back, coincidentally enough to smoke, because I have a horrible nicotine habit. So quit or don't start if you're listening. It's been very hard to, you know, going off and on with that. So I went out to the car to get away from the craziness of these shows and smoke, and there was this old guy playing like softball, or like, like a whistleblower with kids, and in the park in the adjacent parking lot, and I thought, well, that's weird, because we're kind of in an industrial area, but it's kind of charming to me, and he just seemed he was kind of like, hey, you go here and you do this, and he's like, "Oh, don't worry about it, buddy, you get the next one, and I'm listening to the voice, and I start hearing it, "Tyla, tell him that, let him let him back again, that voice, and I realized that old man is that hack, Jim Fullington, and I just found it such a great juxtaposition, and I also found it charming, in the sense that, like, the real human being, the one thing that I've never heard anyone say is that he wasn't good with his kids, and I saw it there, you know, he came in, I think he, I think he did it for free, that show, I think he did it as a favor to one of his old ECW friends or Shane or something, and he brought his kids, and they played whiff ball. He did his one run-in, everybody popped, he drinks his beer, you know, Metallica plays, and that was his night. And he just did it to steal friends and hang out, and really, he just, you know, he just spent time with his kids, and he introduced his kids to his crazy old family from the 90s, yeah, that's something that I can say about him.

Dave Bullis 1:39:05
Yeah,

John Philapavage 1:39:05
That is a positive.

Dave Bullis 1:39:07
Well, you know, I have a funny story for you too. He, when I used to work at what was called EB Games, which was an old, which was what was GameStop before GameStop became GameStop, and EB Games, we saw, you know, and I was up in Broomall, Bruma, Pennsylvania, and we're in this, you know, and it's kind of like an upscale shopping center we were in. Well, one day in 2001 in comes the Sandman, and he's got his kid with him, it was Tyler, and he's talking about buying a PlayStation, or PlayStation Two at that point, and my manager had no clue who this guy was, and I'm like, oh my god, it's a six. I was like, what, maybe it's 2001 so I'm thinking I'm like 1617, and I'm like, oh my god, it's a sandman, and I'm trying to, you know, and he's like, yo, what's up, buddy, yo, you got that vs two. Okay, hurts my voice. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And any.. and you know, I was like, yeah, sure, buddy. And so you know, and he ends up leaving. I was like, oh my god, save me. I just came in here, and we sold a PS two, and my managers like, who was that guy? So I ended up bringing in some VHS tapes of ECW. I showed him, and he was laughing his ass off at who he was, and he wanted to bring him in into the store to have a wrestling match with our assistant manager, who was this obese guy who was just a biggest curmudgeon, he had these like he had a completely bald head, he had like these like bulbous moles, he looked like a cartoon character, he looked like a real-life Homer Simpson, if you can imagine that. Okay, so he said to him, "Hey, I'm gonna bring the salmon in, and you guys have a wrestling match here in the store, and he wouldn't like, he wouldn't tell him it was a joke, he was trying to get him to believe it was real, and I just remember finally the assistant manager flipped out, was like, "No, I'm not gonna wrestle the sandman in the middle of the store, and it was like it just kind of hit me, like that was one of the things I never thought I would hear in my life was somebody refusing to wrestle the salmon in the middle of a retail store, just one of the funny members to have a Sandman,

John Philapavage 1:41:24
And real quick, because we bury the lead again for the people who are, who are saints and have stuck with us. There's a Sandman, the wrestling character, real name Jim Fullington, also goes by Hack to his friend, was a wrestler in the early 90s who carried around a kendo stick, which was popular at the time, because Michael Fay got in trouble in Singapore. It was this kid, he was this teenager who I forget what he did, but they ended up guilty of the trial.

Dave Bullis 1:41:54
He spray painted those cars.

John Philapavage 1:41:56
Oh, okay, right, right, right. And his punishment was they would whack him 10 times with a quote unquote Singapore cane, so the Sandman snake, which was originally that he was a surfer, very miscast in it. He maintained being the Sandman, but he was a guy who would come out in like Zuba pants, and then later jeans, once that when somebody told him that bad was over, and he would come out with that in a T-shirt, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, and hitting people with distain. This does not necessarily sound like the wrestling you may have grown up with, or even the wrestling you see today. It really worked in that environment. He became a cult hero. A big thing with ECW, which you could never do today, was the original music. They didn't use generic music, they used hits that were identified that you then identified with that person, and then you would hear on a radio, and they would be rock and metal, and maybe hip hop and rap. In the time when that was just now, it's that's music. Now hip hop is just a part of music, it is the dominant form of music, and Rock's chair in Music slips day after day, but at that time it was like a very forward-thinking thing to attach hip hop to some of the acts, and Haman was a Paul Heyman, the creative guy behind UCW, and eventually the owner, he gave him Sandman Enter Sandman by Metallica, which is a pretty big.. it was one of the biggest hits ever. And I hear that song to this day, and I think of it, and he would come out.. half of the fun of him was this five minute entrance where he, the music would build up, and he'd come out, and he started coming out in the audience, and he would drink a beer, and then smash it over his head, and he'd actually cut himself with bleed from the beer again, from smashing it, and he would go up to people, and I saw a million videos of this as I was going through the collection for our footage that we used to VCW. He'd walk up to a kid and go, are you 18? It's kind of like the worst version of a bouncer carding somebody ever. You walk up and go, are you 18? And the kid would go, yeah. And then you go, cool, and he would just dump a beer down the guy's throat from like a very high angle, and it would get all over the kid's face, and then he'd high five this interactive experience. And that's the family, that's the worst, the guy who basically leaves his gimmick that Dave and I just talked about.

Dave Bullis 1:44:26
My dad actually used to work in Wilmington, and it was right up the street from Hacks Bar and Grill, and that is, you know, I had friends who would, because eventually wrestling shows are happening there, but they said, you know, you could go in there and there would be the same man, just living the gimmick, drinking stuff like that. I mean,

John Philapavage 1:44:45
See the raw footage of our interview, it took place in there, and he didn't seem to understand that playing commercial music during our interview over the loudspeaker of the bar would hinder the process, considering we couldn't license us. Yeah, I'm sorry, continue, but yes, I know that bar, because we went there, and he wanted to just do it at a random table in his bar.

Dave Bullis 1:45:07
Well, you know, when I was at the premiere of Barbar City, I had, I was laughing when someone actually said to you during the Q and A, they said, 'Oh, I would just use a WF footage, and told Vince McMahon to go fuck himself, and I remember your reply was, well, maybe you have a very good entertainment lawyer who is a very expensive, you know, who's on, you know, the family or is on the payroll, you know, that would be a hell of a lot of money to pay to even sit down with them to talk about using footio footage.

John Philapavage 1:45:39
Oh, I had people steal the movie online, and when I would write them and say, 'Hey, I'm the director, like this is a really small thing that I hope you know to make money just to reinvest in us. I'm not trying to get you in trouble reporting to anything, like, could you just not? And they would be like, 'Oh, man, I'm just trying to spread it, you know? You know, stopping people from doing this is so un ECW or something, and I'm like, what the people who you a will use anything to justify what they do, but also be that again, circling all the way back, a big problem that I had was just these wrestling wrestling fans, specifically old ECW fans, they just don't get it, like you said, like I should just tell this giant worldwide global corporation that stock traded F you are using your footage like that. You would have never even been in the premiere. They would have sent a ceasing to shift months before that. I would, I would still be paying them today if I did that, oh, and for forget about today, it's only been three years, I would be paying them well into my 80s, I wouldn't have had the money, and I'd probably end up in jail or something. Yeah, oh, you can't do this,

Dave Bullis 1:46:54
Yeah, absolutely. And which is why, whenever, whenever he said that, you could just tell that he's never experienced on this path, but, but you know, John, I wanted to ask you, you know, Sue, you know, I've been talking to you, me, we've been talking about two hours now. I wanted, wanted to, I wanted to ask you, you know, what's next for John, you know, what are you working on next?

John Philapavage 1:47:16
Oh, we're pains me to say we are in a holding pattern right now. We managed to make enough money to really reinvest in ourselves, and we still have a few things that we want, you know, production wise. We wanted to upgrade. Like one of the things that you should know, first of all, go to Barbar city.com If you have not seen the documentary, you can download it. There are no more DVDs left. I have to go bug the guy who does our website, because I just.. I don't look at these things, because I made it, and I'm, you know, in a weird way, it's like it was over for me the moment the after party wrapped, and then I still had to deal with it, and that's like the creator part of it, you know what I mean? Like, I, I had lived it, I had accomplished it, you know. So I don't go to Barbed Wire City, because I know it's there, you know. I made the movie, but apparently I just saw last week randomly I wanted to see what the website looked like, and they're still.. it just says DVDs are sold out, and I'd say like once a month I get an email from somebody saying like when is that going to be restocked, and like it's just not everybody knows, like in February, in late January and early February, we did a kind of a going out of business kind of sale to liquidate our DVD stocks, because when you have a normal life and like a day job that you have to do in the real world, it's really difficult to then like run home and like find out what the orders are, and you know, run to the post office and send these things out and just manage the business, you know, it was just, it was, it was that time, so there there's a VOD there, I shouldn't say a VOD, but a direct download [email protected] that you can purchase if you want to see it, my point to bringing that up, other than a shameless plug, is it's in standard definition, and a lot of it was shot on a handycam in the early 2000s you know. Obviously, upgrade a lot of stuff, some of it we did have, but it made no sense to intersplice that into our phone, like it just would have looked like a mess to me. And so, obviously, everything has to be HD, and that we wanted better sound, we wanted better lighting. We wanted, you know, we wanted a lot of different things, and once we got near that, we started talking about different projects, and we finally settled on one, and it was going to be about gentrification, essentially. It was going to be urban renewal, which is like the promotional press release version, because we're going through that in, in the city I grew up in, which is Allentown, and the whole Lehigh Valley in eastern Pennsylvania, and we wanted to really study it. Does it work? Does it not work? I mean, there's a lot of things involving money. I had worked down there during, during, you know, it's still going on, it's like a 30 year time check. And they built an arena. The arena was supposed to draw all these businesses in and draw all the people who were in an economic state to spend money down there and stimulate the economy, and all of a sudden you know the dilapidated downtown area that people are afraid to go into will become this beautiful, you know, almost tourist attraction that the locals spend money in as well. And I just said, this is just such a good story, and we don't have to travel. When we looked at all the boxes from what we learned from making a documentary. We said, "This is awesome. It's in our backyard. We know some of the players, we know the people to talk to, we know the journalists, you know. In some cases, we knew them first person. And I spent a week researching, and I had a long three hour conversation on the phone with Kevin. We had another one in person, and then we even shot some test footage, we went down for the second event at the arena to interview people about if they were excited about the arena, what they thought, why this was good for the city, and I just figured some, there's got to be some weird financial thing going on here, it's like there's this special zone called the Neighborhood Improvement Zone and the state just gives that money back to the to the people who are developing the lands, and I was just like, this is a guaranteed their money back, and we're talking millions of dollars, and just from working down there for a few months, I was like, there's something about this, who's who's watching this, where's the oversight, you know, and Kevin said, like, look, you know, he was Kevin right now is in Alaska, he's Alaska for six months, he left mid-June, we had, we both had to go to a wedding of a mutual friend, and then two days later I helped pack him up and drove him down to the Philadelphia International Airport to fly out, so he wanted to put the whole thing on hold. He just said, "There's no point in starting this, and then me leaving, and this all being on your back, especially because he's far more tech savvy with the filmmaking. I'm the dreamer who puts the story together. I'm a very capable editor, but I'm nowhere near Kevin, you know, and he was just like, it's going to be a mess, you have to get a replacement person, and you're kind of running cat and running the creative vision when you interview people or shoot footage, so we kind of put it on hold, and maybe even like won't do it, kind of a thing, and then like two weeks ago, maybe three big headline article in the local paper, the FBI, like, rated the mayor, downtown mayor's office, and a bunch of other offices, and, and I guess in Redding, this happened to, or Lancaster, I forget, and now a lot of people, including the main developer, who is making a crazy amount of money off of this are under investigation, apparently by the FBI from afar. I emailed him the article, and I just wrote, like, of course, this would happen. We would have been.. when did we test footage, September, and I did all my research, so we would have been pretty thick into this by now. We would have almost been a year in, and we would have had the contacts and had everything, and we would be on the ground, kind of shooting as it happened, kind of a thing. And which is something that he does not like sit down, interview, tell the past kind of stuff, actually. His favorite parts are the more active parts at the reunion. In our documentary, we used a reunion of these guys, as I mentioned before, kind of his tent poles that we kept coming back to, bouncing between the present and the past. That's his favorite stuff. So he would have been in love with all of this, and now it's all you know, something is going on in that story that we kind of felt might be an angle of it, and we're not covering it. That's a long way of saying, like, hey, would you have liked to see this documentary? Yeah, well, we would have to, but right now we're in a holding. Did manage to make a wonderful five minute video for my nephew, though. So, for all of you concerned,

Dave Bullis 1:54:25
Hey, you always got to be creating, John. That's right.

John Philapavage 1:54:29
It was an outlet, and it was a great way to.. we did it not only to make, you know, make my nephew feel important, but also it was a great way to test out a lot of new stuff we had in Netflix, because it's something where you don't have to be perfect, you know, a little kid doesn't care if something's washed out or if the lights don't, or the mic, the new mic doesn't work right, or you're messing with the settings of your new, you know, HD camera or whatever. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:54:56
Very true, you know, and so. You know, John, I want to say, you know, thanks again for coming on the show. I know you know we've been chatting about ECW, and a lot of things that, you know, like I'm definitely gonna have the show notes filled, by the way, everyone. So, if there's anything John, I talked about that you're kind of like, "What the hell was that? Trust me, I'm gonna put a ton of stuff on the show notes, because I have a lot of notes in front of me right now. John, where can we find you out online?

John Philapavage 1:55:23
Oh, I'm kind of hiding from social media. I mean, if you Google my name, you'll find I don't do a lot of Facebook. I've been.. I've gotten back into Twitter only. It was a promotional thing that I really listen, you, if you're still listening to this, you know, I can talk, you know, I may, I may not be able to do 142 characters, so the Twitter thing is a little bit of a mess, but you can find me on Twitter, I don't even, I honestly don't know my handle, but it's the eye, there's only two John Phillip averages in the world, and one of them is my dad, and he doesn't know how to work this stuff, so you'll find

Dave Bullis 1:56:01
John's Twitter handle is at BWC Film.

John Philapavage 1:56:04
Change that, by the way. I don't know how to change it.

Dave Bullis 1:56:10
You can change that.

John Philapavage 1:56:11
Okay, good. Because, like, that was something that was literally just created for the film, and now life goes on. Like, I don't appreciate you having me on, and it's fun to talk about this stuff, but I do have friends who do podcasts that they have me on for different reasons, and always like you, come on, and you can promote Barbed Wire City, and I'm like, can I just not be the Barbed Wire City for once? Can I just have an opinion that's just valid because I'm me, and maybe I can present myself well,

Dave Bullis 1:56:41
So that's why I had you on. I want you, I mean, it was more of how to create a documentary in general, crowdfunding and stuff like that. Now, granted,

John Philapavage 1:56:49
Oh yeah, I wasn't throwing shade to you. I do need to change that, so I'll have to talk to you. I'll have to mess you. I'm like 45 minutes late to meet a friend who flew in from California, by the way.

Dave Bullis 1:57:01
Well, hey John, I want to say thank you, and please apologize to your friend for me, John Philapavage, documentary filmmaker. John, it was a pleasure and honor, sir. And I can't wait to see what you do in the future.

John Philapavage 1:57:12
Thank you so much, Dave. I had so much fun doing this, man.

Dave Bullis 1:57:15
Oh yeah, same here, buddy. And I will talk to you very soon. Let's catch up. Let's not make it another like three years before we talk to each other again.

John Philapavage 1:57:22
Definitely,

Dave Bullis 1:57:24
All right. Take care, John.

John Philapavage 1:57:57
You too, man.

Dave Bullis 1:58:02
Bye, bye.

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BPS 477: What James Gunn Taught Me About Success with Will Keenan

June 25, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There are careers that follow a straight line, and then there are careers like Will Keenan’s—the kind that seem to zigzag across every corner of the entertainment industry before revealing a larger pattern. What began with an unexpected audition for a Troma film eventually led him through independent cinema, Bollywood productions, digital media empires, and executive boardrooms. Along the way, he accumulated a rare perspective on what it actually takes not only to survive in entertainment, but to continually reinvent yourself as the industry evolves.

Will’s story begins shortly before graduating from NYU when he landed the lead role in Tromeo and Juliet, a cult production from Troma Entertainment that was written and heavily shepherded by a young James Gunn. At the time, Will wasn’t even familiar with Troma’s reputation. What he thought would be another creative opportunity quickly became the launchpad for a filmmaking education unlike any classroom could provide. Troma’s low-budget, guerrilla-style approach forced everyone involved to wear multiple hats, solve problems creatively, and learn every aspect of production from the ground up. As Will explains, “Troma was my film school.”

After Tromeo and Juliet, Will found himself immersed in the booming independent film scene of New York during the late 1990s. It was a fascinating period when indie filmmaking was thriving, festivals were gaining influence, and filmmakers believed they could break through without studio backing. Yet even during those years, Will began noticing the harsh economics of independent film. Projects required years of work, financing was difficult, and success stories were far less common than most aspiring filmmakers realized. Despite appearing glamorous from the outside, many productions struggled simply to recoup their budgets.

One of the most valuable lessons from the conversation revolves around budgeting and screenwriting. Will argues that many writers unknowingly sabotage their own projects by writing scripts that are far too expensive to produce. Instead of focusing on what they can realistically make, they create stories loaded with locations, characters, and logistical challenges that immediately push budgets into unrealistic territory. His advice is simple but powerful: write the version of the film you could actually produce. If the story resonates, larger production companies can always expand the scope later. Starting small dramatically increases the odds of getting the project made in the first place.

As traditional independent film became increasingly difficult to sustain, Will saw another revolution beginning to emerge. Long before many industry professionals took online video seriously, he recognized that YouTube and digital platforms were changing audience behavior. Rather than continuing to fight for shrinking opportunities in traditional indie filmmaking, he made a bold move into digital media. That decision ultimately led him to Maker Studios, where he joined during its early growth stage and helped oversee its explosive expansion before its eventual acquisition by Disney. Later, he would hold executive leadership roles at Endemol and Streamup, placing him at the center of the creator economy years before it became mainstream.

Perhaps the most provocative idea Will shares is that today’s filmmakers should stop obsessing over gatekeepers and start building audiences directly. Throughout the conversation, he repeatedly emphasizes that online platforms have become the new discovery system. “The new getting discovered at Schwab’s drugstore is the internet,” he explains. Rather than waiting for a festival, manager, studio, or distributor to validate their work, creators now have the ability to publish content immediately and prove audience demand themselves. This shift fundamentally changes how careers are built.

That philosophy extends to networking as well. Will admits that early in his career he underestimated the importance of relationship building. Over time, however, he learned that opportunities often emerge from long-term connections rather than isolated moments of brilliance. Some of the most important career advancements he experienced came from relationships cultivated over decades. Talent matters, but relationships frequently determine whether that talent ever gets the chance to be seen.

The final chapter of Will’s story may be the most unexpected. After achieving significant success in both traditional and digital entertainment, he chose to step away from Hollywood and create St. Babs, a nonprofit foundation named in honor of his mother. While it may seem like a dramatic departure from filmmaking, it actually reflects the same entrepreneurial spirit that guided every phase of his career. Once again, he identified a mission, assembled resources, and began building something from the ground up. The medium changed, but the creative process remained remarkably similar.

For filmmakers, writers, and creators, Will’s journey offers a powerful reminder that careers rarely unfold according to plan. The industry changes. Technology evolves. Opportunities emerge from unexpected places. The people who thrive are often the ones willing to evolve alongside those changes rather than fight against them.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
So, on today's episode, I have actor, stunt man and founder of the St Baptist Church. We're going to talk about everything from his first starring role in Tromeo and Juliet, where he was Tromeo, which was actually written by James Gunn, to moving to India to star in Bollywood films to becoming an exec at some of the biggest content studios around with guest Will Keenan. Hey, Will, thanks all for coming on the podcast

Will Keenan 2:22
Dave Bullis. How are you?

Dave Bullis 2:24
I am doing very well. Will, how are you doing on this on this fine Sunday morning?

Will Keenan 2:31
It's beautiful down here in Cape May County in New Jersey. And hey, just so you know, that you know this this opportunity to speak with you for your podcast, which I've now checked out, kind of came out of nowhere in a way, but I'm glad I'm glad we're doing it, and I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to now promote you as the podcast man in the Philly area.

Dave Bullis 2:49
Oh, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. Yeah, you know, that's the way I try to do it. I sort of come out of nowhere, and I sort of find fine people on social media, and I sort of go, "Hey, I'm Dave, I got this podcast. You want to come on and talk, but

Will Keenan 3:04
You know, I.. I'm like, you know, I'm a big deal in my own head, but, but I get, you know, opportunities via social media. People ask me to be on podcasts or speak at conferences, or whatever, and I always then check their social media. You'd be surprised, be surprised how many, how many people like reach out without having their own, you know, especially for something like a podcast that is social, at least the sharing of it, you know, online. These surprised how many people reach out for a request but don't have their own channels optimized, if you know what I mean, so all I do is in one click I know whether I'm going to say yes or no. So you were a big yes with the exclamation point.

Dave Bullis 3:47
Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. I, you know, I try to try my best with my social media, and I know your social media, that's great, and I agree with you, because you know I see other people who have podcasts and such, and you know, even you know actors, producers, directors, screenwriters, and I see their, you know, some of their social media, and it's just, it's like nothing, it's just, you know, it's just sort of sitting there, and you know, that's how they're going to promote their stuff, but, but you know, yeah, I'm glad that you could, you could come on, and I want to talk to you, obviously, you know, about your career, you got some awesome credits, and I also want to talk to you about, you know, all the great things that you're working on, so you know, just to start, I guess. You know, at the beginning, you know, how did you, you know, find yourself in the film industry? So, you know, what was sort of your impetus to start in this industry?

Will Keenan 4:32
Yeah, my first film was, was cast in right before I graduated, or went down the graduation aisle at New York University, and oh boy, is this before you were born, Dave? 1995 summer of 1995 right before I think the week before NYU graduation. I had been cast as the lead in trauma's film Tromeo and Juliet. That was my first film, and it was a starring role, and I was not familiar with trauma at the time. I throughout NYU, I had been doing a lot of kind of performance art, dance, theater, I mean, you know, that kind of thing, and, and prior to that, when a lot of my generation got into the trauma movies, I was out climbing trees and doing stunts and stuff, so when I saw the casting, like a week before NYU graduation, I was with a friend of mine. He's like, 'Oh my god, trauma's casting. I'm like, 'Who's trauma? And he was like, 'What? And then I went in for the casting and read for producer Andrew Weiner. And then I was called back for Andrew and James Gunn, and they were videotaping the, you know, the auditions, and I could tell, like, after the first callback I was, I was getting close, at least to be considered, and then word came back that Lloyd, the director, and mr. Shoma, you know, had seen the tapes and wanted to do a few more callbacks, would put me, put me through the grind, so to speak, but I think I think may have been Andrew Wiener, someone tipped me off to the fact that Lloyd's wife, Petty Pie Pad Kaufman, who was then the she had been for like 20 years the New York State Film Commissioner, that she really liked me, and she was voting for me. So, at that point, that point, I knew I was probably going to get it. And Lloyd told this story once, I think, a few years ago, in some kind of interview, where he said I walked in with a pizza box for the audition as a prop or something, and it's, it's very likely I would have done something like that, but I, but I don't remember, so look, that was my foray into the into the film industry, because when I was at NYU, and right before graduation, I had been a part of this, you know, performance art dance troupe called Via Theater, and we had done a few shows and got great New York Times reviews, and I was so fulfilled creatively that at the time I was like, even after spending it was like 40 to 45,000 a year on NYU with curriculum and room and board for four years. At the end of that, I was so happy with what I was doing, kind of, you know, avant-garde theater in New York City, that I said, I don't care if I never make a dime at this, I'm, I want to do this for the rest of my life, but then that fateful day, why don't you just go, you know, my friend saying you should go audition for Tromeo, so that kind of changed everything, because once I got that role, although let's just say Colt's film wasn't such a huge departure from avant-garde theater, wild, wacky, weird stuff. I caught the film bug because when we premiered Tromeo at the Cannes Film Markets, and I guess it was the year after 96 or maybe 97 I saw myself on the big screen, and I thought, oh my god, there's a, there's a huge difference between theater acting and film acting, and I didn't know the difference when I made, when I started that movie, and I thought I looked like a trauma monster, you know. So once something that, like that, usually happens, you know, then I want to figure it out, so it's not that I switched to film after that, but I did some theater, but you know, I think I racked up like 25 or more independent films during that period, right after Tromeo in New York City.

Will Keenan 8:12
There was kind of, it was like almost like the last hurrah indie film in New York City, I guess, according to Pat, you know, 9594 a boycott had happened, you know, a boycott was finally over, and then a lot of indie film in New York was getting made, and you know, Good Machine, Cineblast, Miramax, like so many great films and filmmakers were coming out of New York City at the time, so you know, I did a lot of them, and a lot, a lot of cool stuff, you know, a number of it got got distribution, some of it broke through that great distribution, and some of them were never to be seen again after that first screening, but you know, starting out as Tromeo, which, you know, it's one thing to be a lead in the Troma movie, or to be in a Troma movie, but to be branded as Tromeo, you know, even though I was able to to do a lot of other, you know, films after that, it was almost like almost like starting out in porn. I mean, trauma, drum is not porn, but you know, you know, it opened up some doors and it slammed other ones shut. So, after trouble me, I did, I had to work really hard, and this is no slight against Lloyd or trauma, there, you know, he was a mentor of mine in a lot of ways, and, and fiercely independent, and just a really good human being overall. So, I don't, you know, no slight on trauma, but I had to work really hard after Tromeo to kind of just be, you know, accepted in the legitimate indie film industry, if you can, if you can, you know, call it that, and at the time they were kind of like, you know, I think a lot of the, you know, the certain film organizations back that, back then, you know, kind of looked down upon trauma because of their genre of filmmaking. But you know they've been around for what, over 4040, some odd years, and I think the longest one of the longest running independent film companies in the world. So I mean, Lloyd's been awarded all over the place. He's never won the Oscar yet, but he says I should have won the Oscar for my, my, my second trauma movie. I did two of them. I started as the cinema's first hermaphrodite serial killer in Terra Firmer. He says I should have won for that until Chop, until Chop. What, what fans I have left say that playing the lead, and Terra Firmer was, was my best role, but Chop, I think, at least with my 10 fans left, they say they say that's the best one. Anyway, so that's how the career started. And then, like I said, there was, I think, it was timing, you know, it was the last hurrah of the indie film broom in New York City, and I was working real hard, and I just got into the scene. No, I said to a lot of actors, you know, I still have actors who come and either, you know, ask me to help them out, or you know, became a producer and financier to help them with their films, or to give them advice, and you know, definitely, if you're an actor and you're serious about it, and you're actually getting schooling, take audition classes, it's a completely different technique than actual acting on stage or film, and film acting is different from theater acting, is different from TV acting, is now different from like YouTube acting, but there's a technique for auditions all itself, and I out of, like, I don't know, 50 some odd projects, you know, films, short films, TV, so forth, and so on, maybe less than a handful, I actually got cast via the audition because I was just a horrible auditioner, and I even at NYU, with all that curriculum, I had never taken an audition technique class, which, which I would have done if I were to do it over, and same thing with, like, the business of entertainment or the business of acting kind of classes. I would have done the same thing anyway. Most of the most of the roles I was cast in as an actor were, you know, either someone telling the filmmaker that they should meet me or talk to me or see my work, or meeting the filmmaker at like an independent film event or film festival, and you know, I like to say I was cast more late at night at some indie film, you know, event after getting to know somebody, the filmmaker, than I was in auditions, but that's how it all started. And then, you know, indie film business is hard, and even though at the last hurrah, it was never a sustainable business. Out of all the movies I made, I don't think I ever made a dime. In fact, I lost a lot of personal money. And then, as the internet kind of gained influence, we saw, you know, the audiences for the format of a feature-length independent show. We saw we saw less and less people wanting to go see those, especially in the theaters. You know, I liken it to now, if I were to talk to someone pretty much under the age of 30 and say, "Hey, let's go see this really cool independent film, what I get is, "Oh god, no, please, you know, which is the same thing that I used to do to people when they had asked me, you know, in the late 90s to go see a theater piece, and I was like, "Oh, god, no, because I've seen so much bad theater, so many people by the early mid 2000s had seen so many bad independent films, you know, so that you know by the time the economic downturn happened, you know, and I was financing movies, producing movies, getting them distributed, and I was a distributor myself with Go Card for a few years back then, and you know, it takes years to at least most cases two years out of your life to make an independent film. You beg, borrow, and steal, and you know you're lucky to get into a big festival. If you do, you can have a healthy festival run.

Will Keenan 13:51
Unfortunately, that's like your theatrical now, because you're lucky if you get a real theatrical deal. People are like giving their movies away to distributors. You're lucky to get a TV deal, I could get a VOD deal, but at the end of the day, you know, you're lucky if 5000 people see your movie, you know. So this is like 2006 2007 and I had a number of projects that were, you know, some were high-profile and be films, but then I saw, you know, and I was very aware of online video, especially YouTube, when it first came out back then, and I just knew that that was essentially the future, and I think, like, 10 years ago I put up my Actors Reel on there, and I think it has over 100,000 views by this point, but you know, if I were to do it all over again, no regrets, I'd love my life and career, I'm doing fine, but I always think, like, okay, you know, if I were to have done things differently, I think I would have essentially switched to online video back then in 2006 rather than take another few years doing American Independent Film, and then when the economic downturn got really, really bad, I think it was 2008 910-ish, I went. Bollywood, I went to India at first on an exploratory trip, because they have the largest independent film industry in the world, and there's actually like four distinct film industries there - Bollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood, and so forth - that, that I started working there for a number of years, and worked with some of the biggest stars there, and made it, made a few movies there, and, and things were going great. I was, you know, I was, it was well received. They kind of rolled out the red carpet for me. My Indian friends tell now tell me that was because I was a Westerner and had some real, you know, Hollywood credits, but you know, my trips there kept getting longer and longer, and I was living like a king. I was on the on the cover of, like, the New York Post of all of the year, called the Bombay Times, of, I think, they called me a young hot Hollywood producer, and I had a driver, a chef, a gardener. I was, like, I said, living like a king, but at the time I was married to my last trip, there was eight months, my wife, who, who, as you know, has done very well for herself and Hollywood, said, "Hey, look, you don't come back, we're gonna have a problem in our marriage, and I'm not coming there because she, she was doing well here, building up her business, so I think it was within three days I was back on a flight to Los Angeles, and I think, like, spring of 2011 and this was the time I said, all right, this is some, this is a career transition, still entertainment, but I'm going to move from, you know, quote unquote traditional film, independent film, you know, studio film, TV, whatever, to online video to digital, so I locked myself in our house, and for about three weeks I put myself through like a boot camp of trying to learn everything I could about online video and, and YouTube, especially, because that's, you know, that's then that's when the, it was kind of the rise of the MCNs, the multi-channel networks, and I did that for about three weeks, and my now ex-wife will tell you that we have a big had a big dining room table was just filled with stacks of printouts with highlights and notations and underlines, and at the end of that three weeks I was like, you know, ha ha, I know everything about online video, which wasn't true, but I was confident enough that I'm one of those guys who thinks you know what you think about, you bring about, especially if you have positive, confident thoughts about it.

Will Keenan 17:28
So I think it was like two days later, after my, you know, boot camp that I put myself through to learn online video, I got a call from the then head of human resources at a company called Maker Studios, which was a growing multi-channel network, I think, was number one or number two at the time on YouTube as a network, and and then started working there. The it was very small operation at the time. The three founders hired me, and I worked with them directly, and I think I was the 51st full-time employee, and there's like 300 channels we had on YouTube at the time, getting about 300 million views every month across the network, and the company was valuated, I think, at the time at like 25 ish to $30 million and then by the time I left two years later as VP of Network Development and Original Programming, or wait a minute, I got that wrong, VP of network programming and regional development, whatever it was, a long title we had. I think 110,000 channels, almost 5 billion views a month, and the company was being evaluated, I think, at the time at close to $300 million And then right when I knew the sale to Disney was happening, or there was going to be a big transition, I had been getting other offers from kind of rival MCNs, and so forth, at the time, and then I accepted the job at Endobal to be their president of their first kind of digital division in North America, and that was another two years after that, which was great, that was my, so I guess transitioning from indie film, Bollywood film to digital, I, you know, I also went, although I, you know, truth be told, I stopped acting like 10 or so years ago, the movies that came out over the past, I don't know, four or five, six years, or ones that I had been involved with from somewhere or another years ago, but I haven't, you know, sought acting roles in many, many years, so, but that was the other part of the transition, I was, you know, going from actor, producer, so forth and so on, and traditional to digital entertainment executive, and and then did that for two years at End of Mall, which was great, we became, then I think the first six or eight months we got all these awards, and we're the fastest growing MCN, and there's a couple other monikers that that we were given, which was great, and and then after that again it was kind of like a mirrored maker, but there was a merger going on within the mall and another big company called Shine, and I had been told that even before I was hired that this merger was eventually going to happen during my tenure, and then I said, you know, and it was a, an old friend and colleague, Charlie Corwin, brilliant dude, who's at least reported about to take over a CEO, or actually at the newly formed position as CEO of Imagine Entertainment, so Charlie's killing it, so yeah, he brought me into Endemol, and he told me about the merger, and we kind of made a gentleman's agreement, I said, all right, look, I'll build what I say I build for two years, and then you know, kind of all bets are off, you know, because I like to feel like I've had my inquiries, I like to build things, and then essentially hopefully set them up with the right people to continue, and then, and then move on to something else, so that happened, and then, and then I took to prayer, I was asked to join Stream Up at the time, a fastest growing, or now the largest and fastest growing at the time live streaming network, and I was president of that for six months, and then it was during that six months I realized, you know, towards the end of that I was entering the 25th year my professional career, and I really just decided to take stock of it all, and I thought I needed a break. I realized my mother was falling ill, so I kind of, kind of announced and left that I was taking a sabbatical for six months, a true sabbatical away from the industry, and what I was really doing was, was doing that, but also spending time with my mother, and attempting to take care of my mother as she started to fall ill, and I thought, you know, she would give me, you know, at least the six months, but I got there, and my sister says she just kind of waited for me to come home to pass, because she gave me six days instead of six months, and that was july 5, and then instead of, like, you know, going right back to work or going right back to Hollywood, I decided to continue with the sabbatical and reconnect with family and friends, and then, you know, really kind of go on a walkabout and decide what I wanted to do with the next few years or with the rest of my life and career, and it kind of all, you know, came together. It's like divine intervention, because you know, my mother's little condominium in South New Jersey, when I would come home, and unfortunately, you know, the past few years it was only I was only able to get home two or three times a year, whether just to go see her and my family, or because I was at business, or was speaking at, you know, conferences or conventions in New York, I always visit them, but it used to be before she started to fall ill, a few years ago, you know, that everyone could come over, and we used to sleep six to the floor, friends, family, you know, when I was back in town, but you know, as she started to get sick, I realized, you know, I couldn't make her house the congregation house anymore. So I'd been looking for property to buy in South Jersey, but then everything happened. She passed quicker than I had imagined. So then there was this opportunity to buy this over, I think it's 108 year old historic church in Cape May County, Cape May Courthouse to be specific, one of the favorite areas of my mother, and I renamed it St. Babs in honor of my mother, her name is Barbara, and I started the foundation, a not-for-profit 50123 charity called the Barbara A C's Kenan Foundation, and it's essentially to continue her work. She was a registered nurse her whole life and career, and if you look at some of our online channels, you'll see that people have said that she was like the Mother Teresa of nursing, you know.

Will Keenan 23:54
So I really believe that my mother did not become a doctor, which is what everyone thought she should do, because she kind of raced through nursing school, and, and was the kind of nurse where doctors would defer to her, but I believe she didn't go, because she had to put me through NYU, and in that way, this was my way of saying, okay, like, you know, some people think I'm nuts for, you know what a lot of people would think is, you know, peak of my career right now, to kind of leave Hollywood and go do this, this not for profit, but I kind of think the opposite, to me it's I'm doing doing this to spread her, her good work, and to also take all the skills I've learned in Hollywood and apply them to something that you know I think can do some real good in this community and the surrounding communities where we are in South Jersey, but also it's going to have a very strong online digital component, so I hope to be able to, you know, do the same kind of, you know, services for people online as well. That was a long-winded answer to. You, so tell us about how you started your career. In fact, I started and finished my career. There you go.

Dave Bullis 25:06
It's okay. Will I tend to ask open-ended questions, and you know I love hearing stories like yours, and you know that was an amazing, amazing, you know, career you've had, but you know, and there's certain things, obviously. I want to ask some more questions about, you know, just, just sort of going back to talking about how, when you first got started, and you were working on Show Meal and Juliet. You know, James Gunn was a writer on that, and you know, James Gunn just

Will Keenan 25:35
He was more than a writer, yeah, he was, he was Lloyd's right hand, James wrote it, he was the, I'd say the main non-financial producer, you know, besides Lloyd, and you know Lloyd is the first to admit this, and maybe people watch, you know, certain documentaries, Farts of Darkness, the trauma apocalypse movie, no, Lloyd gives people like James and myself, and, and after me, I think it was Trent Haga, lots of people before he, he takes people like that, who, who show the passion, the drive, have the talent, and, and who will, you know, stay up all night to, to make, you know, make the trauma movie. He gives them a lot of autonomy, and you know, so James, James did so much. I mean, he, you know, he essentially, you know, people like James, myself for Terra Film, or Trent for Citizen Talks. Before, you know, it's an uncredited, uncredited kind of co-director position, and I think Lloyd has said that before, but you know, you work with all the actors, you rehearse them, you stage all the scenes, you know, there's so much, and James not only wrote a brilliant script, but you know, he was beside Boyd, he was the main guy on that movie,

Dave Bullis 27:00
Yeah, it's, you know, I've actually had Lloyd on the podcast before, and we've talked, you know, about, about, you know, James, and also about, you know, about Trent, and also about, you know, we were just saying where he, you know, he would find different people, and you know, sort of shepherd them along in different projects, you know, give him a, give him a chance, you know, to, you know, maybe write the next trauma movie, and you know, that's, you know, it's just funny, it's a small world, because usually most people have on this podcast, one way or another, have met, met, or worked with Lloyd in some capacity, because he's everywhere, right.

Will Keenan 27:27
And we've all learned so much from Lloyd. I mean, I didn't go to film school, right. So trauma was my film school, and it was the art of low-budget filmmaking, and the art of guerrilla marketing, you know, the art of the sound boy, the sound bite, Lloyd is Lloyd is a genius, and you know one of the things we all learn from him is that, you know, he's a very, very passionate guy, so his energy, especially on set, is is so, so very intense, but he's been doing it so long, and he's such, you know, he's a genius himself, that he has this intuition, the sixth sense about him. Like, I remember he'd be saying things, well, you gotta, you gotta watch out for this, you gotta worry about that. And I'm like, Lloyd, that'll never happen because of this or that, and he's just like, all right, all right, you'll see, you'll see. And then it would happen, and I'd be like, there was no rational reason for that to happen, except Lloyd just can, he could almost foresee the future when it comes to being on a film set, it was.. it's amazing. So, we've all learned so, so much from Lloyd. And then, you know, look, you know, there's so many people who've gone through, you know, the trauma school, so to speak. And look what they're doing now. I think James Gunn is put the latest, you know, you know, prototypicals, but a word example is one of the biggest directors in Hollywood right now, and you know, I am honored that James and I made our first movie together, that was Trommie.

Dave Bullis 28:51
Yeah, it's amazing, you know how far James has gotten, you know, when he made Super, and then he made.. and now with Guardians of the Galaxy, I mean,

Will Keenan 28:59
Well, here's the thing, I told James this, like super, although an awesome movie, and produced by someone I had worked with before, Ted Hope, one of the one of the best, you know, film producers in the world. He's now running Amazon film, and before Super came out, like Ted's got a bit, you know, pretty sizable social media audience, James had one, and if I, at the time, if I were to go by what social media was saying, I thought super, which I think the budget was around $4 million was going to be like a hit, you know, like with the indie film, the little $4 million indie film that could, but theatrically, and this is goes back to what I was saying, you know, about switching, when I decided to switch from indie film to digital, theatrically, you know, I think it made $100,000 at the box office, and as someone who started out with James, who you know is a supporter of James, and you know, a longtime friend of James, I was like, "shit, man, this could hurt his career, you know, and, and I thought he was gay, he would have been left for dead, you know, but Marvel, such an amazing, amazing company, and amazing movies, they.. I'm told not by James, like, you know, you hear stories that.. that they started to look at some of the properties and characters and brands that have not been licensed, either by others, or, you know, Marvel would make in partnership with others, and they started looking at, and then they started, you know, attaching essentially, you know, known fanboy directors, ones that have the cred, you know, the kind of the fan cred and the cult cred, like James, and then hire them and surround them with, with, you know, top above wine crew, and, and, wow, look what it, look what he was able to accomplish, you know, with essentially Marvel backing him after, you know, he, he had a movie that wasn't a huge, huge hit. I think it critically, it was, it was okay. But you know, when I was a producer and actually raising the money for movies, I started, and this is right before I switched to digital, I started becoming a tyrant in a way, because you know, every 200,000 bucks, every million bucks, you know, in an independent film, is it's because a lot of them go over budget, although not mine, where I was writing the checks, and it takes so much out of your life that hold on real quick. My dog wants to get in. Hold on. All right, Chairman, you're here. All right, where was I? What was I talking about?

Dave Bullis 31:41
Are you talking about your money in the producing indie film?

Will Keenan 31:45
Oh yeah, that.. oh yeah, I was becoming a tyrant, where you know, when it came to I'd source a property, I'd start to come up with the potential like talent and above the line crew attachments, and then I would.. I would talk to my pool of investors, and then start, you know, early talks with distributors and buyers, and so forth, and, and it got to the point where, unless the directors, you know, on my short list, unless their last movie was a critical and commercial success, like, I don't care if you made the movie for $1 did you make the dollar back, did you make $1.10 you know, because a lot of those things, when you're doing the financing of independent films, a lot of those things you know falls into the whole number crunching algorithm, you know, bankable or not, you know what I mean, and that was in addition to me trying to put in, and successfully the last few movies putting in directors' contracts that you know they were obligated to, you know, produce a shot list and, and storyboards and everything, because too many times in an indie film, I mean, it's like, look, if you're making a movie that costs $1 or 100,000 or a million, it's the same, it's essentially the same amount of work, you know. The crew could be bigger or smaller, but when you really break it down, this was a very smart production manager named Randy Turow in LA who taught me this when we were making a movie called The Politics of Love, because Shirley Maclaine, the Oscar-winning actress, was was in the cast and she wanted, she wanted her character to have like one of those little lap dogs, you know, almost as a prop, and she was an Oscar-winning actress, and I was a little not starstruck, but I wanted to make her happy, because if Shirley McLean isn't happy, you got problems with the production, okay? But when I was telling my production manager about this, he's like, 'No, it'll cost too much money. I'm like, 'What are you talking about? It was a dog cost per day, and it'll only be like, you know, I think it was nine days out of the 18 day shoot we would need the dog, and yeah, the trainer, you need a trainer, you know, legally, and all that kind of stuff. He said, 'Okay, there's that. This is how much that costs, he said. But when you break down our budget, every day of shooting, every 10 minutes costs this much money. And he said, 'If that dog poops on set, if that dog won't do the tape, you know, you're wasting five minutes, 10 minutes, there's 1000s, 10s of 1000s of dollars going out the door, and I was like, holy shit, man. So that was one of it, was one of the one of the lessons. I'm not what brought me that was I trying to get to another larger point.

Dave Bullis 34:34
It's

Will Keenan 34:36
James. Yeah, so anyway, Viva James gone, Viva Los James gone, Viva Lou James gone.

Dave Bullis 34:46
It's, it's just, yeah, like you were saying, with super, yeah. I was just gonna say that, you know, it's amazing, you know that, you know what he would, you know, where you know he's been able to do, and that's why I always, always, and

Will Keenan 34:59
He never. He never went to film school either.

Dave Bullis 35:01
Yeah,

Will Keenan 35:02
You know, trauma was his film school. So, and here he's, you know, how many, how many studio, like superhero movie, you know, mainstream like popcorn movie directors never went to film school. Yeah, I mean, I guess James Gunn did. He went, he went to the film school of trauma, but he was, you know, I think he had just graduated, or he was his last year or something at Columbia as a writer, you know, when, when we started trauma in 90 summer of 95

Dave Bullis 35:36
Because when you look at all the directors that went to that didn't go to film school, I mean, like Tarantino didn't go. I can't remember if Kevin Smith hasn't gone, but, but, yeah, and James Gunn, you know, yeah,

Will Keenan 35:47
There's not.. there's not many. I mean, who get, like, you know, even Tarantino movies, you know, they.. they limit that budget to a certain extent. You know what I mean? I think James Gunn's first Guardians of the Galaxy budget was. I'm just gonna take a wild guess here, considerably higher than all of Tarantino's budgets.

Dave Bullis 36:08
Yeah, okay, I think, yeah, I think the first Guardians was somewhere around maybe one or 120 think somewhere around there,

Will Keenan 36:15
Yeah. I, and you look, you would know better than me, and I'm, I'm guessing Tarantino got to play with 100 million at least for one of his movies, but maybe you know, maybe not. I think when you add the marketing into, you know, the budgets, but then you know, same thing, you, you add how much they spend on marketing Guardians, and it blows, you know, the overall budget of any of Tarantino's movies out of the water. I think I'm right. If anyone's listening to this podcast, please Google it right now and find out.

Dave Bullis 36:45
No, I'm pretty, yeah, I'm like 100% sure that you know you're absolutely right, will, because you know, I think the most money a Tarantino movie cost to make, just production without marketing, I think was was in Glorious or Django, and I want to say it was around 60 million, just to make it. If you had in marketing, it's probably, you know, bumped up to maybe 100 or so with Guardians. I mean, it's probably when you,

Will Keenan 37:08
Yeah, and there's a difference. I mean, Tarantino's movies are, although James wrote the script for Guardians, they were the original concepts, you know, the inception of the idea was his, right, when he, he, you know, his, I guess, his first real breakout film was Reservoir Dogs, and then, you know, with Harvey, and played the Miramax game for a while, and James was hired to write and direct Guardians, but, you know, that was, you know, that was, think, a long time coming for James, he's been a comic book fan for a long, long time. I'm sure Tarantino is as well, to a certain extent, but maybe, maybe not like James is. Although I have to believe Tarantino has been offered to direct and or write some kind of superhero movie.

Dave Bullis 37:58
Yeah, I think he was trying at one point to get on the Bond franchise, and I think when they were going to reboot Casino Royale, or sorry, yeah, and I think he made a pitch, and they were actually going to legitimately think about hiring him, and instead they went, they went, I don't think it was Sam Mendes on that one, but I forget who it was on the first Christina Royale, but, but, yeah, so that's, you know, who knows, but if Harentio could ever, you know, do the superhero movie the way, because I mean, you know, sometimes again, like you said, well, when you're working with a studio,

Will Keenan 38:28
He's gonna retire soon,

Dave Bullis 38:29
Well, after 10 movies, so he's got, he's got two left,

Will Keenan 38:33
Okay, so maybe one will be a superhero movie,

Dave Bullis 38:36
Yeah, cuz I know, cuz you know, when you're working with studios, there's expectations of, you know, like I said, intellectual property of presets and characters, and you know, making, and then you know, you have your artist vision, and you know, as we speak about that, that's something that has, you know, I've seen a sort of, it's almost a mis mixed match of styles, and I think James has been one of those guys who was even, this is even more rare now, because when you see these different styles, you know, you see the problems with Fantastic Four and Josh Trank, then you see the problems with, you know, like Suicide Squad and David Ayers. There's just.. there's a clash of styles, and it's just.. and I, they, a lot of these studios want to go out and they want to get, you know, avant-garde directors or maybe some indie darling directors, but it.. but it very rarely does it ever work out, and it worked out for James, but you know, as you talk about independent film, no, will you know, you talk about, you know, making independent films, you know, have you, you know, seen, you know, with all the advances in digital technology, and you work for Maker Studio, have you ever thought about, you know, maybe, you know, going on like Kickstarter, Indiegogo, or maybe crowdfunding like an indie film with, again, with a smaller budget, and maybe you know, shooting it on, like, you know, like a red, or you know, something like that, which is a digital format. Have you ever thought about that?

Will Keenan 40:00
Yeah, I mean, I, I have, and I may, you know, I have, I'm doing what I'm doing now in the St. Babs, the foundation I started down here in Cape May, but, and there will be, you know, there's a number of aspects to it, there's definitely going to be community services and self development, there's going to be a large recovery aspect. My sister, who teaches at U Penn, she's big in the recovery movement, so she's going to be doing a lot of those things here, and there'll also be, you know, kind of an arts education aspect to what we're doing down here, and I do plan on creating, you know, content for a number of platforms here, and as far as, like, you know, the format of feature-length storytelling, the narrative feature film, I have one or two, I think, you know, left in me, as far as you know, getting them off the ground and you know, executing them, and crowdfunding may be, you know, a way to go for one or both of those, we'll see, you know, when I was making indie movies back in the day, pre internet, and then after the internet, you know, before crowdfunding came about, I raised my money mainly from, you know, Wall Street dudes who would throw in 50 grand or 100 grand a pop and didn't expect it back, they really just wanted to meet the actresses, and you know, there was farm presales, there were a number of different, you know, kind of independent film financial products back then, which, which, you know, there was during that economic downturn, I was talking about, you know, a lot of the funders left in the film, and some of them, that you know, number of them have not come back, it's harder and harder, but the bright light, I think, for indie film, at least creation has been crowdfunding. When you look at Kickstarter, when you look at Indiegogo, I think they've funded more independent films, you know, then then true independent, you know, film finance companies, whether it's banks or hedge funds, or so forth, and so on, so a lot, you know, a lot more getting funded that way. And I also think it's a great kind of democratizer, because when people, you know, they have, they have an idea for an indie film, it's a story they've fallen in love with, you know. I still get people pitching me, you know, and they'll send me the script, or whatever, and even before I read a script. I'll have a lot of questions, and you know, I'm that guy who thinks he's so good at it that he can read a script and, like, what do you want to make it for? And they told me 4 million. I'd like, you'd be crazy to make this for over 400,000 because I'm also thinking about, you know, the back end. Like, what is the audience for this movie? Is it true that, you know, a number of people are going to go and see it, and make that 400,000 or $4 million back, because you know James is, you know, one of a million, because most of the time when you make a movie that doesn't make money back, you're making it, you're making it harder for yourself to make your next movie, you know. I've had plenty of mentors tell me, hey, don't rush into just making this movie, if it takes you four years to put together the right movie, let it take that long, because if you're just one of those filmmakers, like I just need to make another movie, and you make something and you do it quickly, and yeah, it gets into a festival or whatever, but you know, you beg, borrow, and stole hundreds of 1000s or more dollars to make the movie, and it didn't, and it wasn't critically acclaimed, and it wasn't some kind of commercial success, even just $1 in the black. Then, then you're actually hurting your own career as a filmmaker.

Will Keenan 43:30
So, the next movies I make, I mean, I may, you know, truth be told, I still, at least a few times a year, I get asked to, you know, star in a movie that's of the genre I'm known for, like, just comedy, horror, cold movies, and I may, you know, I've been saying no for years, because as an executive, you know, I can't, can't divide my focus, and I'm, and I was very, very concerned that if I continued acting while I was an executive, that whatever company I was working for, like, oh, see, he still just wants to be an actor, or whatever, you know. So I was, I really wanted to make that crystal clear to people, and I think it was one of the variety writers had told me that, you know, if you take Tom Cruise and all the big actors who created their own production companies out of it. I think they said I was the first actor who used to like starring real movies. Yeah, they weren't $80 million movies, but who then, of his own accord, essentially not creating a production company, but was hired to be an executive, and then kind of rose the executive ranks, at least in the digital world, within a short period of time. Where are we going with that?

Dave Bullis 44:49
I know we were just talking about independent film, and I was going to say you're a trailblazer in that, in that regard, will, because you know, just like, you know, they were saying, was, you know, you're actually. You know, sort of starting your own, almost like I guess I don't want to say marketing funnel, but, but in a way you are, if you know what I mean, because you're, you know, you're finding the scripts, you're then you're, you know, you know what, you know what, what's gonna, you know, what to make production for, so like you just said, you know, don't make this for 4 million, make it for 400,000 you know, because you know that production side,

Will Keenan 45:20
If you have to make it, and we've all talked to filmmakers, like, I have to make this movie, I have to make this story, and you know, I will grill directors, like, why, why do you have to, man, I'll keep going, because I'm trying to get down to, like, the essence of it, and I've had, you know, once I start to break them down, I've heard I've had filmmakers say to me, I just want to lock people in a room and force my emotions on them. I'm like, all right, no, that's evil. Or some of them say, some of them say, like, I just want to make the movie I would want to go and see. I was like, all right, that's eight people, here's $80 make a YouTube video, you know. And look, plenty of people get movies made just because of their, their force of will, but it's not to say that there's an audience for them. It's not to say it's not going to hurt your career if it doesn't do well. It's like you can be original by looking at what you know, by giving people what they want at the same time. You know, you can, you can add your own voice or your own style to something that people actually want to watch, that's why you know I'm looking at, I've been in the digital world for years now, and you know these are my mind's medications the new stars, they're putting butts in seats, they're you know, they're the new A-listers in a way, you know, and we're seeing them, these digital stars, these YouTube stars, or Instagram influencers, you're seeing them, but they can leave now and do to do TV, so I think you know it's essentially traditional and digital or converging, which is a really, really exciting time, because it also affords people just starting out, or even people who've been doing it for a while, there's a new avenue to want to express yourself, and, or to, you know, the new getting discovered at Schwab's drugstore is the internet.

Dave Bullis 47:13
Yeah, it just me, you know, making a YouTube, you know, channel, like when you were at Maker, you guys ended up attracting PewDiePie, and you know, now he, you know, he was discovered, and you know that just his whole career trajectory, now he's the number one YouTuber in the world, and you know, it's funny, as we, as you were talking about budgets, you know, well, it's funny because I had a friend of mine who actually wrote a one literal one location script, and it was going to take place inside of his own house, he could shoot it there, and you know, and I said, you know, it was kind of, it's kind of stereotypical of an indie film, it's a lot, it's about a guy who loses a girl, it's one of those, but you know, he's at his house, and so what happens is it was gonna be at his house, right, and in one location, and he ended up, you know, meeting me later on, and said, okay, I gotta raise $200,000 to shoot this thing, and I said, wait a minute, what do you need $200,000 for? Like, I read the script, I said you could shoot this in for like probably the change in your couch, and he was

Will Keenan 48:10
To see his top line budget and how much he was paying himself.

Dave Bullis 48:15
Well, well, it's funny, I was.. it's funny what happened was, I said, you know, where's all this money going? He goes, well, you know, I have to pay a cinematographer, I gotta pay this, I gotta pay that. Well, he ended up getting a production company involved, and he actually sat down with one of their producers, and she even said, like, I don't know where all this extra money, you know, where you got $200,000 from, and she got, she said, if we could do this whole thing for 50, and even I said, you know what I said, you know, even that, I was like, you could probably shoot, you know, probably for a little cheaper, but, but

Will Keenan 48:45
Still make it look good, and that's thanks to technology,

Dave Bullis 48:47
Yeah, yeah, and still make it look good, because you know, at some point, by the way, he ended up never making that film, by the way, so you know, it just, it wasn't the fact

Will Keenan 48:57
I always tell filmmakers is that if you can write, if you, the story is really, really good that you have, and you are dead set on getting this movie made, and in a way, budget shouldn't matter, right? And in a way, shouldn't matter where the money comes from, so forth and so on. But write the script as if you were going to make it yourself. In this case, your friend wrote, like, a one location script, you know, that's probably one of the biggest budget busters when people write scripts and stories, is that they have too many locations, too many setups, so forth and so on, too many, you know, characters, but many times people come up with a good, you know, writers, filmmakers come up with a good story and they overwrite it, meaning that it's, it's a good story, but because of the way they wrote it, with, with all the locations, now you can't make it for anything less than 20 million, 40 million, $400 million right, so, and that's, that's a tough, you know, mountain to climb, so what I say is that, you know, you. The essence of it, you know, if it can be done in five locations, do in five locations. If the story, when you start sending out the script, if the script and the characters, the dialog, the story starts resonating with people or resonating with, you know, big production companies, they'll find ways to make it a bigger movie and increase the budget. You don't have to do that for them. If you really want to get the movie made, write the script where you know you can make the movie for a certain amount of money, but you know if everyone still has the idea that, you know, Imagine Entertainment is going to option your script, they will if they like it, whether or not it looks like, you know, a $200 million movie or a $20 million movie or $2 million movie or 20 or $200,000 movie, you know, if this, if it's good, it's good, and you can always broaden the scope, and you know it's much, we, you know, in acting we used to say it's much, it's easier to go bigger as an actor and then tone it down than it is for someone who's very toned down to do a big performance, you know, so with script writing I think it's the opposite, it's like you know you have the story, then keep it, keep it small, but the good elements of, you know, of the script are noticeable, so that you can expand it from there, because it's much harder to take a really, really good script that, my God, I love it, but there's no way you can make this for under $100 million then there's a lot of work that goes into trying to pare down, pare down, and, and then you know, yeah, the filmmaker was watching his, you know, these, these, these, you know, $10 million scenes that he was so attached to, you know, get, get thrown out to make it for, you know, much less, that makes sense,

Dave Bullis 52:00
Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense, and I'm glad you brought that up too, will, because you know, you do have four writing credits, and I wanted to ask you, at least you know, touch on, you know, your writing process, because you know, I wanted to dig into that a little more, and ask you, do you, so actually, I'll just ask that, you know, what is your process on writing, will do you ever do subscribe to a method, or do you just sort of, you know, have your own process?

Will Keenan 52:25
Yeah, I think. Well, it depends on what I'm writing, right? I haven't taken part in writing a feature-length film script in a while, but if I remember correctly, you know, once I'm in the mode of knowing, I have to get it, get it done, and in most cases I think I wrote with partners, and then we would kind of divide work, you know, will you write this section or this scene, or so forth, and then, and the other one writes this one, and then when we're done, we, we pass them to one another, and essentially edit them, or or co-write the scenes, so when I was writing feature film scripts, whether it was a loner with a partner, you know, I went through a process, and I think I consider myself a fast writer, you know, there might be, I might be able to bust out a full script, or, you know, at least my what I'm supposed to do for the script, you know, pretty quickly, but then, you know, what they say writing is rewriting, and so it's always kind of like fine tuning and polishing, but just like what great filmmakers said, it about full movies, but same thing with scripts, it's like, you know, they, they're never done, you could keep going forever making it better, there's always room for improvement, essentially, right, but there's comes a point where, where you have to say, okay, it's go time, you know, there's not, it's, it's, it's, it's to the point where other people are saying this is great, let's, I want to be involved in this, even though you know there's still more refining to be done, but that can be done essentially later in the process, in pre-production, or even on set, or through rehearsals with the actors, and so forth.

Dave Bullis 53:57
Yeah, and you also talk about, you know, what you have to write, you know, as again the difference between you're writing an independent film, or maybe if you're let's just say you're going to write a film right now. I always tell people to, you know, do the Rodriguez list, you know, what actors do I have access to, what locations do I have access to, what props do I have access to, and build a film around that, that you know what you have, and then you can sort of make a film around that.

Will Keenan 54:23
Absolutely, and then rather than you're baking into the cake stuff you already know, and they say, write what you know, you know,

Dave Bullis 54:29
Yeah. Rather than, you know, make a script where it's going to cost, you know, $50 million in explosives and and stunt work and squibs and everything else, and you don't have, you know, we can't shoot that at my grandma's house, or anything, you know what I mean. It's, it's so, you know, when I was making money,

Will Keenan 54:44
These are filmmakers who actually want to direct their own movies, and we all know the stories about people who wrote scripts that they wanted to direct, and either didn't, or no, stuck to their guns and did, but there are some writers out there who just want to write a big studio movie, and that's, you know, that's different from what I was talking about, you know. About writing for budget.

Dave Bullis 55:02
Oh yeah, absolutely. I was just gonna say, when I was making my student film again, I didn't go to film school either. And when I was making my student film, basically, that's what we did. We figured out what locations we had, and we just pulled all our resources together, and we shot a film, my one friend's grandparents' house, and that became pretty much like five locations, because we would use different rooms for different things, and it's just you again using what we have, you know, we have access to, to sort of, you know, to make these indie films, and like I tell people, if you even if you make an indie film and you realize, you know what, maybe this isn't going to go anywhere, you know what I suggest, will honestly, I tell people sometimes, just put on YouTube, I know it's as weird as that sounds, because that way, at least you know it's going to get seen, and two, it could, you know, maybe you'll track somebody who says, hey, you know what, if you do that for nothing, you know, maybe, you know, with a big, let's see what you can do with a slightly bigger budget of maybe, you know, 5000 3000

Will Keenan 55:56
Exactly, without, if you finished your movie with a shorter feature, and it's, you know, wasn't getting, isn't getting accepted. The festivals generally recourse is to put it online, you know, and hope, and hope that you know you can attract some attention, like, you know, to me, the especially you're going up against you, finish your film, you're going up against so many other movies, a lot of them, well funded, especially in a marketing campaign, you know. So, you can't compete with that. How do you compete? Is one of the things Ted Hope was saying when he, he's been, he's been sounding the siren of the death knell of indie film for four years, and now he's part of, you know, one of the main people I think bringing it back with Amazon's backing, which is great, but, but Ted used to say, like, from day one, you know, when you're writing your scripts, you start putting online, you know, you create a page for your movie, and you start putting online, like, you know, taking a picture of the title page, the cover page of your script, and putting up there, and start engaging people, and they did that with Super throughout, that's why I thought it was going to be such a big hit, you know. You take pictures of casting, and there's so many, you know, there's can do live streams of your, your cable read, and so forth, because you're essentially engaging people who hopefully, by the time your movies for release, they, they feel somewhat invested in it, you know. And that, that's your audience, because you don't have 50 or $100 million to essentially, you know, the Hollywood business model of just moving butts and seats from one movie to the next via, you know, essentially TV and online advertising that costs a lot of money.

Dave Bullis 57:35
Yeah, absolutely, and you know that's, you know, again, you know, we have all these options that are coming out,

Will Keenan 57:41
I might go farther, and this is this is where filmmakers start to hate me, because I try to talk people out of filmmaking, because I know what goes into it, I know what the success rate is. I talk people out of acting, and that's what you know when I said, when I grill filmmakers or grill actors, I want to find out what their true purpose is with what they want to do, is it fame, you know, which is kind of shallow, is it, you know, you want to change the world, is it you want to impress some people, like, you know, and if I find that the, the underlying kind of, you know, foundation is, is you know, a positive one and makes sense to me, then I'll try to help them, but there's plenty of people who made films that should have been, you know, instead of finishing it and putting it on YouTube, because no one else wants to, will play it, you know, maybe don't make the movie in the first place and make a short film and put it on YouTube, that is the essence of your feature, and you know, yeah, long gone are the days where, you know, a short film at Sundance would strike a free picture feature deal, you know, but there is a version of that, and it's, and it's YouTube now, so it's like, was you know, a lot of people have gotten feature film deals from shorts on YouTube, but if you've already made your movie, then yeah, you got to put it online, and you got to try to show some kind of audience for it, because whether you're, you know, whether I was a digital exec or a film producer, if I'm looking at, if you know, if someone pitches me something and I like the idea, and I take a meeting, or I want to learn more, you know, either the movie played festivals and got distribution, and there's numbers to look at, or you know, I can see the film itself, but if I see it on online and it looks like it got 10,000 100,000 views, or there's engagement and people really like it, then that helps me, you know, that helps me as a green lighter, as a decision maker. A lot of people are still like, well, I don't want to put it up there, I want someone to steal my idea, that is long and gone. That's been gone ever since the internet came out. You know, you can hold your precious idea and never get it made, or you can, you know, start to put it out there and do it, do your idea better than anyone else could. So you become that person, you know, when it comes to that idea. You know, I'm saying,

Dave Bullis 1:00:09
Yeah, that makes absolute perfect sense. You know, I had a manager before, they weren't, I meaning they weren't representing me or anything, but I was talking to them about this project that I did, and he was very adamant. He said, "Don't put it online. He goes, "Don't do anything with it. And he goes, "Just so. And now other marketers who I really respect..

Will Keenan 1:00:27
How old was he? I'm not an ageist, but I'm guessing this was a few years ago, and they, they were unaware of the influence that comes with people engaging with you or your content online.

Dave Bullis 1:00:42
Yes, but this is probably about four years ago, or so. This is, he was, he's probably in his 40s, and now you know, talking to marketers, they were like, "Dave, just, you know, do your thing. So I'm actually, you know, that's been something I've been sort of,

Will Keenan 1:00:55
Yeah, the only people listen, the only people in my estimation who are getting signed, you know, by top agencies or managers, and I've seen it for the past number of years, and I was actually a conduit for a number of them, happening, you know, talents, whether it's on camera challenge or behind the camera talent, the ones who are getting signed are the ones who are building audiences by themselves online, you know, there's plenty of talent out there who are not putting their stuff online, and they're great. They could be better than the talents who are getting jobs now, but this is how to get jobs now.

Dave Bullis 1:01:29
Yeah,

Will Keenan 1:01:30
But no one ever sees your work. If no one ever sees your work, then, then you know, continue with that with that second career, and that's probably all you're going to get.

Dave Bullis 1:01:41
Yeah, it's very, it's very true. You know, I've had Jason Brubaker on here from Distributor. They actually put together a movie project for Netflix, all from all YouTubers. They got some of the top YouTubers, put them all together in a movie, and sold it to Netflix.

Will Keenan 1:01:55
Yep,

Dave Bullis 1:01:55
And you know, it worked out well, because everyone, you know, they already have

Will Keenan 1:01:58
That's big business right now. I consider that a new genre of independent filmmaking, but it's the only one, and you know, you might have to check this too, but I'm going to make a grand statement that the only independent films that have made their money back and gone into profit, except for, you know, the ones that really break through and get nominated for rosters. The only independent films that make their money back and or go into profit in the past few years have been ones that have digital stars in them, and I'm talking truly independent films, you know. And if you, you know, and name me a time when a genre and independent film was profitable. This might be the first time independent film starring digital influencers might be the first time independent film can is a sustainable business, at least for at least for a minute. You know what I mean.

Dave Bullis 1:02:54
Yeah, yeah, it is true. And also, you know, they come with their own building audience and everything, and I mean, that's what, so it's so interesting for investors, and you know, it's why in distributors as well, and again, I think that as we slowly come aboard, you know, like you were saying, that's sort of being discovered in the old sweet shop, you know, there's old stories of Hollywood, where you know, an actress was discovered at, like, a malt shop or something, this is this is the new way, right?

Will Keenan 1:03:21
Yeah, no, that's it. I mean, that's how you get discovered, you know. Tell actors, too, it's.. it's like they're serious. They're even going to acting school, like some of them, you know, expensive acting schools, and.. and they're not online, you know? They're not.. they're not showing their acting talent online, and it boggles my mind, because when I was a young actor, before the internet, I would hope that I would have embraced it if the internet were there, and I would have, you know, essentially showed off my talent online, and in that way works, I've seen it work for a lot of, a lot of people in, you know, in the years after, but the ones who are like, no, they're still doing black, you know, an actor is still doing like black box theater, but, but they're doing nothing online. I'm like, well, you know, and I don't know if it's because they're their curriculum keeps them so, so busy, and they don't have time to be online, but to me it's the only way to get discovered now,

Dave Bullis 1:04:22
Yeah, that's so, so true. And you know, because I've had people on here, and they, we've talked about a lot of competitions and stuff like that, and I think you know it's sort of putting it all together as well. You know, I have a friend of mine who's been on here in

Will Keenan 1:04:34
Screenwriting competitions, or will say competition,

Dave Bullis 1:04:38
I generally mean screenwriting competitions, but what I was going to say was,

Will Keenan 1:04:41
Yeah, all that stuff's good. Submit your script, and if you get, like, as a finalist in nickels or ones that are known, awesome, it's like a feather in the cap, and it would make someone like me, or you know, other green lighters, or whatever, you know, put your script near the top, like, okay, someone you know, it's the group thing, someone else like. This, and I heard of them, and then we, we might still read your script, you know what I mean, but as, as important, if not more, is that you know, you know, let's say, instead of, instead of getting a screenwriting fellowship award for your script, which, yes, agencies, managers, production companies, if you have that on there, they'll be like, "Oh, okay, guess we should really read this one, but at the same time, and maybe even more powerful is, is putting some, you know, putting some kind of content online that gets, you know, 10,000 engaged views, people saying, 'Oh my god, this is awesome. Are you going to do a larger version? You know, because when people are making decisions about, you know, money, which is essentially life or death in the industry, you know, so many people, especially in, you know, an established Hollywood, you know, everyone's afraid to stick their neck out. It's like, okay, if everyone else agreed, then maybe we'll move forward on this, you know. So, one of the things that's getting everyone on the same page these days is, you know, look, if Nichols screenwriting fellowship liked it, great. You know, look at all the movies that they've awarded, and how many got made, and how many were successes, you know, in their since they've been around, but if I go online and there's just the cold open of a movie and it's got engagement and people are liking it, that where I am in my career now, if I'm going to continue to green light stuff and get, get it made, that's almost more important than the screenwriting fellowship.

Dave Bullis 1:06:39
Yeah, it's I actually had a friend of mine on here, Nick Murphy, and he actually started a YouTube channel, was called Continue, question mark, and they actually, you know, they do panels now because they're, they've just built that audience, and then they end up now they've done a crowdfunding campaign for another web series, I mean, so they've done very well with that, and again, you know, they,

Will Keenan 1:06:59
That's great, and, dude, to me, that's networking, and you got to do that too, and that's something that you know I became people think I'm like a master networker, and I think I'm pretty good, but everyone thinks I know everybody, that's not true, there's plenty of people I could name and know more people in entertainment than I do, but that's the perception, right, but it took me a while to learn that, if I were to, you know, have gotten good at networking everything in the beginning of my career, it would, I think, it would be a little, a little different, and I didn't want to think back then that I don't want to have to go in schmooze, I just want to be an artist, all that kind of stuff, but you know, this is the, the, you know, it's called, you know, the entertainment industry for a reason, you know, you got to have, you got to have both, you got to know the business side of things, which includes networking and schmoozing, because you know, sometimes, I mean, look, you, Charlie Corner, when you hired me at Endemol, that was a 15 year relationship, and then it culminated in me becoming president of the North American Digital Division of the biggest TV production company in the world. I think it's the largest independent production company in the world, and that was, you know, Charlie and I had tried to work together a few times throughout the years. We've met in like 96 or seven, and things didn't work out, but you know, you got us, you got to start, you know, not only building your community online and building up an audience online and having people say, hey, your work's great online, so that the industry of, like, hey, you know, the average Joe or Josephine likes this person's work, maybe we should, you know, give them a shot, but also, you know, you got to start building your, your network as soon as you can, and if you're an actor, it's just another role, you're going out to events and meeting people, and you're playing the role of networker, you know, and for filmmakers the same thing, you can't, in many cases, you can still be the shy, you don't like to talk to anyone, you're very introverted, but you're brilliant, you know, artist or filmmaker, and if you can't get a little more extroverted online, then you know these are all just learned, you know, kind of skills that you can always improve upon, you know. You know where you're at currently, if you're not much of a network or schmoozer, you know, read Hollywood and friends and influence people, and then just go out to one of that and just try some of the techniques, and all of a sudden you're like, hey, I'm pretty good at this, you know, but it's so, so important because talent, you know, sometimes talent rises to the top, and, and sometimes you know, the best talent never, never rise, and these are the reasons why. So, you know, if you don't do your homework and find out what it takes, then you shouldn't complain about not getting a shot, about it's life's unfair, about you know, I'm so talented, I'm more talented than this person, but you know they're they're getting jobs that I'm not, or they're getting cast and I'm not, or they're getting funded and I'm not okay. Well, then you know, find out why and I guarantee why is that they're doing some other things in some other areas that you are either judging harshly, rashly, and saying no, I don't want to have to do that, but then you know it's the same in every industry, it's just a little more, has a little more pizzazz in Hollywood.

Dave Bullis 1:10:25
Yeah, you know, you're absolutely right, will, and you have to go out there and network, and you know, I know we've been talking for about an hour, and I know, you know, obviously I could talk to you all day, will. I just want to say, you know, I wanted to ask, too, I want to get to talking about the Church of Babs. You know, you currently have a GoFundMe, and by the way, everyone listening, I'm going to put this in the show notes for his GoFundMe at, you know, at Dave bullis.com where the show notes usually are. So, will I just want to ask, you know, just about Church of Babs, you know, again, I sold the article about it in the philadelphia.com Inquire online site.

Will Keenan 1:10:57
Yeah, but put that link too, that was pretty good.

Dave Bullis 1:10:58
Yeah, I'm gonna make sure to put that in there as well, so I just want to, you know, as we talk about Church of Babs, you know, is there anything, you know, I know we talked about earlier, discussed it briefly, but is there anything else you wanted to mention about the Church of Babs, or Joe?

Will Keenan 1:11:13
Well, look, the GoFundMe campaign is gofundme.com/stdABSSaintBabs, and that you know, so we've raised almost $20,000 in very short time, and we need more. The reason being that I want to, you know, it's 108 year old church, I want to restore it, you know, and then also innovate a little bit. We also want to start a number of programs for the community and the online community, and you know, when I acquired this two acre property in K County, New Jersey, which is incredible, I'm surrounded by natural wildlife preserves of the Audubon Bird Watching Society, the New Jersey Motorsports Park, private beaches, public beaches, just an amazing, amazing area of South New Jersey that you know people think of Jersey, they think of Sopranos, but especially South Jersey, I think, gives gives Jersey its name on license plates, the Garden State, but because it's an old historical property like this, like I had to, when I acquired it, I had to pay all cash, and it wasn't, you know, I'm not a multi millionaire, because you can't get a more, or at least I couldn't get a mortgage for a property like this. It's commercially zoned, but there's no historical rental income, because it was a church, and it's not a private, it's not a residential place, so no residential private mortgage lenders would win. So I had to put all cash into it. So we're reopening grand reopening at St. Babs in May on Mother's Day in 2002 1017 coming up a few months, and for a whole week, we have a number of festivities happening, and certain celebrity friends of mine will be making appearances, and we'll be launching a bunch of initiatives, there'll be lots of great art and music, you know, showing, so the money from the Go Fund campaign is going to both the restoration and, and launching these programs, and I think you know it's a, it's not just one good cause, it's many good causes, and you know this is, we're just getting started, so I think you know, after the opening, and within the next year or two, just like I tried to do with Maker Studios, and end them all, and stream up, I'm going to turn this into something that people will be proud of, and really think well of,

Dave Bullis 1:13:26
And you know everyone, I'm going to link to again in that article in the show notes, and you know, will I know you're going to do an amazing job with this, and again, when I read that, or when I read the article, I said, this is this is amazing, and this is

Will Keenan 1:13:40
Next time we talk, what? Thank you. Thank you. Next time we talk, why don't you come? Like, I'm also building a studio in the church, and you know there's lots going on here. The whole place is getting wired. Why don't you come to your podcast down here? Maybe you know it's not during the grand reopening week, which I think would be fun. I think there'll be some press that come out of that, but you know that's the other thing, whether it's artists, people in need, people in recovery. I want this to be, you know, not their second home, unless they want to make it their second home, but you know, I'm opening the doors for people to create, to commune, and so forth. So, you know, feel free to do your podcast down here, man.

Dave Bullis 1:14:20
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm definitely gonna, going to go come down. I want to be there for the grand opening, you know. We can meet in person, and you know, yeah.

Will Keenan 1:14:29
Why don't we do, why don't we do during the opening in front of people? Why don't we do like a live podcast or something?

Dave Bullis 1:14:34
You know, that sounds amazing. Let's do it. That's,

Will Keenan 1:14:37
I'll be, I'll be a guest if you want me as your guest, but maybe we'll book one or two other people too, and I'll give you the list of, you know, the talent and the people coming, and you can look at that and say, "Oh, they'd be great on the podcast, and maybe we'll do it that way.

Dave Bullis 1:14:51
Okay, that sounds amazing. Will, yeah, and I think that'd be great, great, you know, tool for, you know, everybody, and because I. That's very interesting. I haven't done something like that yet, and I've been meaning to, and will before you know, just in closing, I wanted to ask, is there anything else that you wanted to say, just in closing, that we can get a chance to discuss?

Will Keenan 1:15:14
Oh, I heard from a very, very good source that Lloyd Kaufman of Troma is developing another movie based on a Shakespeare play, and I was told that not too long ago when Shromeo and Juliet played at the Museum of Modern Art in New York a few months ago, so I, if I do another show my movie again, that sounds like that'd be the one,

Dave Bullis 1:15:50
Yeah, that we know again, you'd be, you would be able to reunite with Lloyd, and you know, again, I, I think that would be amazing, because Lloyd is always, you know, now he's just making some, some really great movies too, because now with what was it, Talks Avenger Four came out, I thought that was very well done, and I actually bumped into the wood a few years ago, by the way. I'll tell you that story in person when I see it, but yeah, no, but I think that'd be great, though, because it's, you know, I always great, it's great independent film, and so again, will I want to say, thank you for coming on. Where we will find you out online, by the way,

Will Keenan 1:16:26
I'm Will Keenan, W I L L K E E N A N, on Twitter, same thing on Instagram, on Facebook. I think if you just search my name, it comes up. I have a blue check next to my name on Facebook. What else, LinkedIn? LinkedIn, look for Will Keenan. And now there's a St. Babs, the foundation I just started. Facebook and Instagram, please follow those as well.

Dave Bullis 1:16:52
Will Keenan, I want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Will Keenan 1:16:56
Dave Bullis, thanks for asking me. This was great. This is fun. Let's, let's do it again.

Dave Bullis 1:17:01
It sounds great, my friend. I will talk to you very soon.

Will Keenan 1:17:05
All right. Take care, man.

Dave Bullis 1:17:06
Take care Will.

Will Keenan 1:17:06
Bye everybody.

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BPS 476: The Cinematographer’s Secret to Making Actors Trust You with Jared Hess

June 18, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a strange misconception in filmmaking that success comes from mastering equipment. Cameras. Lenses. Lighting setups. Technical jargon. But after listening to Jared Hess, it becomes painfully obvious that the most valuable skill on a film set has almost nothing to do with cameras at all. It’s trust. The ability to walk into chaos, uncertainty, impossible schedules, nervous talent, dangerous environments, and somehow create calm while still delivering beautiful images. That’s the real craft.

Jared’s career path reflects the evolution of modern independent filmmaking itself. Raised around storytelling through his father’s screenwriting background, he entered filmmaking during the DSLR revolution, when cameras like the Nikon D90 suddenly allowed creators to bypass expensive film stock and traditional gatekeepers. Instead of waiting for permission, Jared began creating content guerrilla-style, teaching himself how to solve production problems in real time. That relentless experimentation eventually led him into professional work with ESPN, WWE, Bellator, and major fight productions.

What makes the conversation fascinating is how unglamorous professional cinematography actually sounds. Jared describes shooting in rough Miami neighborhoods where safety became part of the production plan. He talks about entering gyms with barely functioning electricity, unstable environments, and unpredictable personalities. Yet these difficult locations became his training ground. Instead of resisting chaos, he learned to adapt to it. And in many ways, that adaptability became his greatest professional advantage.

One of the strongest themes throughout the episode is the psychology behind filmmaking. Jared repeatedly emphasizes that talent management matters as much as lighting setups. Fighters cutting weight before a match don’t want to spend hours waiting for camera adjustments. Celebrities constantly surrounded by cameras don’t automatically trust another filmmaker walking into the room. Jared explains that the cinematographer’s energy directly affects the subject’s comfort level. If the crew appears nervous, stressed, or disorganized, the subject immediately shuts down emotionally.

That idea expands into a larger lesson about leadership on set. Too many filmmakers believe authority comes through aggression. Jared sees it differently. Calmness creates trust. Preparation creates confidence. Communication creates momentum. Even when productions go wrong—and they always do—the crew takes emotional cues from leadership. “You want them to feel relaxed,” he explains, describing how important it is to humanize yourself before interviews or emotionally vulnerable moments.

The conversation also offers incredibly practical advice for directors working with cinematographers. Jared stresses the importance of trust between directors and DPs. Once a cinematographer is hired for their visual ability, constant micromanagement only slows the process down. He argues that strong pre-production communication solves most on-set problems before they even happen. When the creative vision is aligned beforehand, the production day becomes about execution instead of confusion.

Another fascinating part of the interview revolves around modern digital cinematography itself. Jared discusses the challenges of judging images across different monitors, lighting environments, and workflows. He specifically praises OLED monitors as one of the most important technological tools for modern cinematographers because they provide more reliable image accuracy in unpredictable shooting conditions. While this may sound technical, it reveals something deeper: modern filmmakers are constantly balancing artistic instinct with rapidly evolving technology.

But beneath all the filmmaking advice lies something much more universal. Jared’s philosophy ultimately comes down to humility. He repeatedly returns to the importance of relationships, professionalism, and making others feel comfortable. Great productions are rarely built through ego. They’re built through trust, collaboration, patience, and consistency over time. The cinematographer is not simply capturing light. They are managing emotional environments while shaping visual storytelling under pressure.

And maybe that’s why the best filmmakers often appear calmer than everyone else on set.

Not because things aren’t falling apart.

But because they’ve learned that panic never improves the image.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
My next guest on this show, and I actually met by accident. I actually reached out to him originally because I thought he was the Jared Hess from Napoleon Dynamite, and he's actually another Jared Hess who's a cinematographer, so we still, you know, we talked, and you know, he agreed to come on, so you know, Jared is on location in this interview, so a few segments are going to be a little noisy, so just bear that in mind, but it's still very, very audible, and without further ado, with cinematographer Jared Hess. Jared is a cinematographer based out of Orlando, Florida, and Jared has worked in the indie film television market for over 10 years and has produced content for such clients as Bellator, WWE, and ESPN. Jared, how's everything going, buddy?

Jared Hess 2:39
Good man out here in sunny Orlando, so can't complain about 80 degrees, so now the rest of the United States happier quota right now. So

Dave Bullis 2:50
It's here in Philadelphia. It's been such a warm winter, it's been unbelievable.

Jared Hess 2:55
Oh yeah, I've heard that, you know, I was just out west doing some shooting, also, for the, you know, the weather's been great, like for the most part, so nobody's getting hit too hard by snow and winter, so,

Dave Bullis 3:10
So you know, you know, Jared, just to begin, you know, the, the question I always ask everybody is, you know, how did you get started, you know, you know, and what exactly is your background?

Jared Hess 3:19
Well, my dad was actually a screenwriter, you know, before I was born, and he had a business partner, Wayne Beach, and he, you know, they.. my dad went into other things. Wayne Beach kept going at it, and he sold a couple films to Wesley's Knife, The Art of War, Order 1600 and then he directed it on Slobod, you know. So I kind of always looked up to him, and you know, I was always into doing telling stories, and thought I was going to be an actor for a while. When I went to college, I decided to kind of pursue the kind of film element doing digital media video production, and then the birth of the D 90 came out, so I wasn't chasing down film stock and renting expensive equipment, and started making my own content. I'm doing gorilla style filmmaking, producing some short films, and then I started getting picked up, you know, primarily by ESPN, and then Spice Television shooting a lot of their feature content, and what have you. So,

Dave Bullis 4:36
So, how did they discover you at first? Did you send them a reel, or did they maybe, you know, happen upon your content online.

Jared Hess 4:42
Well, I worked with a couple individuals who I'd known with, and they kept pushing me and kind of exposing some of the things that I've been shooting, and you know, I did a couple of short films and was always looking to kind of self-promote, and you. Know there came up a couple opportunities where they needed some people to be kind of a film style look for some of the feature content, and so kind of created kind of that niche, or fell into that kind of niche of kind of doing the film look for, you know, features for different clients, you know, whether it's they're usually short form. I've done a couple long, you know, long form, hour long projects as well, outside of features, and when I meet features, I mean, like, you know, short form features for, you know, different, whether it's a fight or, you know, a big event, those kind of things, the story, the backstory, and the storylines that are primarily used without within the actual live event. So

Dave Bullis 5:50
Now you know, you got to work with WWE, you know, so, so you know, what did you do for them? What did you shoot for them?

Jared Hess 5:56
Done a couple of, you know, they've asked me to do a couple of different things, where I shoot, Eng, or do like some of their backstage kind of things, you know. I really wasn't able to commit to them because of Bellator, and then now I do Premier Boxing Championships, which is two shows on Spike Television. So, you know, I've been on there, I do a lot of elements, and I'm almost 30 weeks with Spike, and then you know, so I do a lot of their stuff. Right now, I'm shooting the project with Hoist Gracie, Ken Shamrock, and Kimbo Slice for the doing an upcoming kind of fight that they're doing an hour long project with those four guys, or those three guys, primarily, you know, and that, that's really cool. Yeah, it's, you know, actually, I'm, I'm not really a violent person at all. It's funny that I actually end up doing a lot of fighting kind of stuff, so I've, I've kind of become just the go-to guy when it comes to setting up shoots in some, you know, undesirable locations, but some of these gyms aren't always the most flattering of places to be setting up a on-location shoot, but since I've shot in so many of them and become known a lot to the fighters, some of the more prominent ones. I've, I guess you could say, I've kind of created a name in that environment,

Dave Bullis 7:29
So you know, are some of the more popular gyms, are they, and are like, are they in some of, like, the rougher neighborhoods, and you know, is that maybe a challenge of itself?

Jared Hess 7:37
Yes. Recently, it's funny you mentioned that. I recently I have shot in a pretty.. I mean, Miami, Florida has got several locations where you don't want to be caught after dark, but recently I did a shoot there, and when I was addressing my crew before we got started, I mentioned the first thing that we want to make sure we do not do is get shot, and that safety was a number one issue, because we were clearly could be considered trespassing onto into enemy territory. It wasn't a safe neighborhood by any means. So, yeah, I mean, recently I also shot it, you know, Mayweather's gym, which you know may arguably be one of the greater fighters of our lifetime, and you know, you go into like locations like that, and people have shot so many times, DP is have left in the photo bulb, sometimes you go into places and there's barely intellect any electricity, you've got, you know, it's you've got a garage door that opens, so you're often surprised, pleasantly or not, on what you're going to walk into, you know,

Dave Bullis 8:51
So you know on those locations, you know, I guess you know it really challenge also comes because you can't do a real tech scout, right, so you basically, I mean, I'm sure the location scout, if even there is one, is basically probably just them just showing, you know, taking a photo with their cell phone, you know, probably somebody from, like, you know, an entourage or an assistant probably taking a photo, right? And then you probably just, that's probably all you get, if even that. Correct, am I correct or not Jared?

Jared Hess 9:16
Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely, 100% Scouting locations is fantastic, and it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful thing to have if you can get it, but yeah, you're not. It's usually the lowest common denominator that's being sent up there, you know. So it's kind of one of those things that's an afterthought. So a lot of the times I'll do the research myself, and you know, kind of walking into situations where I'll have to just be ready, you know, and, and you know, kind of rigging up things and having things set up easy enough where I can, because a lot of times I don't have a director and I'm producing out there and during. Working myself, so having knowing every element and how to over, you know, to compensate and to use certain things to my advantages. You know, if you've got, you know, we're shooting 240 frames. I've got a guy who's fighting 20 pounds in a day and a half, he's not going to want to sit there and work out for me for two hours, so and be patient while I set up light. So I've really got to kind of be ahead of the game and be ready to go and be patient with these guys. You know, the number one thing I'll say I think I have going for me is, you know, what I try to tell people is that you got to be really good people person, especially interacting with people, and you know, showing that you're not stressed, even though you may be, you'll get the better through the data on things, and that's what's true, I think, with any kind of on location shoot.

Dave Bullis 11:07
You mentioned not having a director on some of these shoots, so when you go into, you know, to some of these shoots, then it's basically you just have that shot list that you want to get, and I'm guessing, you know, you're basically that, that basically is becoming, you know, you're the director, then, but just the shot list. Am I, am I correct in that?

Jared Hess 11:27
Yeah, a lot of the time we're working with certain story elements, you know, so if, if you know, we have certain backstory that's provided by, you know, different producers or different pre-interviews, so I'll be provided a lot of that information, so you know we'll get certain, I'll get certain shots and set up certain things that will kind of kind of help out and kind of captivate the story that we're trying to tell, so because if you know if we're shooting, for instance, somebody who's, you know, tried to, you know, try to escape Cuba or something like that. We don't have any footage of him trying to, you know, get on a boat and come over from Cuba and come to the United States, and in, you know, what we also want to use original footage, as opposed to trying to dive into stock footage, so you're trying to recreate kind of emotional elements that kind of tie in with the story. It's always, you know, not only an obstacle, but it's kind of a fun part, because you know it's a challenge. You create something that's still visually enticing, and but also ties into the story,

Dave Bullis 12:42
You know, very true, you know, you know, I've done some, you know, interview segments, not nothing of that caliber, what you're doing, and you know, usually you have that, you're the same question, you know, the same questions that you have to ask the subject, and you know, like, like, for instance, I put together, like, an educational, real educational package, excuse me, for a couple universities, and you know, you have to ask the same questions, and one of the things that I found was, was that basically, you know, they, they want you to, it starts off, you know, small, like you're just being the videographer, and then suddenly, you know, there's so many people having different say, you know, a different say in things that you've got to, you know, sort of please, like, you know, 567, or eight different people, you know. Do you, do you find that is the instance in some of these cases

Jared Hess 13:28
100% You're always trying to please other people, and not only that, you're, you know, you know, some of the things that I shoot get used on a million different things. I might be, you know, say, hey, this is supposed to be used in this location, but at any given point it could be used during the live show, could be thrown in with promotional stuff, so you're, you know, and then you always get the, hey, why didn't you do this for us? Well, I had no idea it was going to be used in that, that's not why I shot it that way. So, yeah, I mean, you're always trying to kind of be ahead of the game, please, people, communication, you know, is always key. So, yeah, you're always trying to kind of communicate with what's what's what's going on, and then not, not to mention you always wanted to make it look good, and how you want to make it look, you know, not just some generic, you know, flat shot of just coverage. You want it to make it look cool, make it look like it's your own, and kind of edgy, you know, and look like you really put some production value into it, and you've got to do that within a budget. And so, yeah, I mean, the other thing is it's always great to have a bunch of hands on set, but it also can get too many hands, and you got too many people putting their two cents in, you know. I feel comfortable enough where I can walk into a gym shoot with a fighter, you know, especially somebody that I know or account. That I know, and it could be myself, and you know, a PA, and in a shooter, or you probably have to shoot and send them to do it. I'm completely confident that I can get what I need to get done and communicate with the spider, because I kind of is also just like in anything else, there's kind of a unspoken rule book of what you're supposed to do within the gym or within a certain environment, and you want to kind of make it look like you've been there before, so once they get the feeling that they kind of know you, or you kind of have that cred, I think you're that benefit of the doubt, you know, you'll get the extra 20 minutes to get some extra stuff, he may, you know, that's that fighter, that, that you may be able to get some extra stuff, where maybe the initial interview didn't wasn't able to get, because he was nervous that you know he didn't want to relay that to anybody, but because if you created that relationship. Now you've gained some information that, hey, this would be a great storyline to kind of add into the piece. So, and then at the end of the day, you have a job to do as a producer that you know, DP, so you really got to kind of the guy just kind of sitting there, he's cutting 20 pounds, for instance, and he's just kind of a lump, you gotta, you gotta say, "Hey, let's get this done, let's try to sell this fight, and give me, give me all you can give me for, you know, 15 minutes, and we'll get you back to what you need to do, get yourself ready for this fight, well, let's get people to watch, you know, so it's a lot of give and take, and, and you know, at the end of the day, I'm just trying to make them look good, you know, that's one thing I try to really do. So, if the talent, I want them to look good, then they will be the ones that say, "Hey, I want to work with this guy, he understands me and makes me look good. So,

Dave Bullis 16:59
You know, you know, Joe, you mentioned being a people person, and how you know important that is. I, you know, I think that is a great point to make, because you know, I've been on set sometimes where you know, even the director cinematography, or even the director has just been a complete jerk to everybody, and you know, they're yelling, and you know, every everything is yelling at everybody, so you know by the end of the day they're just basically tuning that guy out.

Jared Hess 17:26
Yeah, I mean it's like I said, if things are gonna go wrong too. So if you know I've had fighter, which are notorious, or I'm the same fighter, that's what I'm working on right now, but it doesn't matter regardless who you're working with, you've got things are going to go wrong at some given point. Technically, flights get missed, all that kind of stuff, but if they, you know, you developed a rapport, maybe not that guy, but maybe his buddy or something like that, you, you're going to get the benefit of the doubt if you tiptoe around them and make them feel awkward. I think it's kind of create an environment that that's not conducive, not only to get your help you out, but I think it just creates something like a, like a trust, a mistrust situation, where you just want to create like a really kind of relaxed, you want them to be themselves, you know. Hey, help me out. I promise I'll make you look good. You want to give them the confidence that you're not there to make him look bad. Ultimately, as black and white as that sounds, that's really, you know, these especially if you're working with somebody who's, you know, if you're working with an Albert Pujols, or you're working with the Hoist Gracie, you're working with somebody who's always, he's got a camera in their face all the time, you want them to kind of develop a trust with you, so you know they're otherwise they're just gonna be like, okay, yeah, I'm just gonna give you the same answer I will give everybody else, you want the new answer, you want the new look, you want the thing that somebody else isn't going to get, you know, and it comes with, you know, I think confidence, knowing what you're doing, being ready, but also kind of developing that personal relationship.

Dave Bullis 19:17
Yeah, you know, that's an excellent point, you know. I always find if you're going to interview somebody, basically not, if you could give, you can talk to them, even through email beforehand, that's a huge bonus, but if you have to meet them the day of, which, you know, I've been in that situation too, you know, I find that, you know, just talking with them for five to 10 minutes, shaking the hand is important, sort of getting that, like a physical contact, you know what I mean, they know you're not going to be, you know, pretty, but basically a jerk, you know. And you know, one thing that I've, I've learned is whenever I'm going to interview a subject, so if, whenever I see they're nervous, I usually just roll the camera and I begin talking to them, and I said, you know, okay, you know, we'll begin, you know, whenever you're ready. So, basically, I'm just rolling, because you know we're all shooting on digital now, so there's no film wasting. So, you know, I usually roll and just say, you know, wherever you feel comfortable, you know, you can introduce yourself and start talking, basically, sort of, it makes them feel that they're in control of the situation, which some degree they are, but they aren't, if you know what I mean,

Jared Hess 20:29
100% man, yeah, you want to, yeah, if you, if you, if you're, you want to make them feel like you're ready, but you're, you know, not necessarily waiting on them, but yeah, you want to feel like just, I mean, I think it's creating an environment where they feel relaxed. If you know this is the sense of anxiety, whether they want to invade it or not. So, if you can kind of nip that in the butt right away, like, hey, listen, I'm gonna get out of your way, you know, and we're gonna get you, we're gonna make you look good. Everything's taken care of, everything's organized, you know, whatever, let's chill, you know, maybe you crack a joke, something to kind of humanize yourself, because they don't want you to think you're a robot, and kind of, yeah, it's at the end of the day, I feel like I've always been able to get the, you know, because you're always going to get the, oh, we need to get that, or, oh, by the way, so if you develop a personal relationship, you know you can text or call these guys and just say, "Hey, man, I hate to bother you again, but you know this really need to grab this one extra thing. I can't get five more extra minutes of your time, and I rarely have that, you know, that time where the talent is unless, unless they're really doing something, where they said no, you know, usually like, yeah, man, no problem, give me, you know, give me an hour, let's do it right before dinner, or something like that. So, and you know, like I said, that's kind of helped me in that, that avenue, you know, where I'm like, okay, yeah, no problem, man. Thank you for giving me your extra time. I'll work around you. You know, I'm in your environment, you're not in my environment, you know that kind of thing.

Dave Bullis 22:09
So, yeah, they develop never poor is very important. You know, I agree, agree 100% You know that that is something that I found over the years as well. You know, and you know, I know you also, you know, as you mentioned before, you work on on films as well, so you know, sort of to transition to that, you know, when you're on a film set, obviously, you know, there is going to be a director, you know, hopefully, hopefully, right, Jared, but, uh, yeah, but if you know you're working on a film set, you know, I, I think you know, building that teamwork and building that trust is sort of key, because you know, I've been on film sets where you know there is no teamwork, sort of everybody is off on their own little island, so to speak.

Jared Hess 22:52
Sure,

Dave Bullis 22:53
And you really don't feel like everyone's kind of working together, you feel like everyone's working and doing their job, but it's not to do the same goal, if you know what I mean.

Jared Hess 23:02
Yeah, I mean, I would say that whenever I have an opportunity to put together guys, or I walk into a situation where you know whether I'm replacing somebody else, or you know, you're you cut everybody's crude already, and you're kind of brought in to kind of manage the team, you know, you, you feel kind of like you're walking in enemy territory or something like that. You tell them once again, you know, I always try to nip that in the butt, you know, and if you can get along with everybody and kind of show them that you don't have an agenda, I think that, and your agenda is just to do a good job, you know. I think that, that, whether it takes time, more time than other times than not, you know, it seems to kind of work. That's kind of worked for me, is that, hey guys, are just, you know, not the best situation. I understand. I don't know, you guys, I'm sure you guys are all talented. Let's do a good job here. There's any confusion, I promise you, or you, something goes wrong, you know, I'll stick up for you. We're not here to throw anybody under the bus. Let's just do a good job and get and make this look good, and kind of go over what we, what you can, and the allotted time, because it's never enough time, you know that, so

Dave Bullis 24:23
Yeah, it's always time and money, right Jared?

Jared Hess 24:25
Are you kidding me? Yeah, I'm learning more and more as I do things to keep asking for even more time than I'm giving, because there's always the old, by the way, and there's always the, you know, I've changed my mind, you know. So, and is as much as you want to get aggravated and get angry, it's just, but it doesn't really help, you know. You just want to need to get on and hope the guys that are around you can kind of have the same mindset and are ready for it as well.

Dave Bullis 24:59
Yeah, you know, I. I find that you know the shooting schedules, where you know you're working like 1618, 20 hour days, and you're trying to smoosh all of this shooting schedule into a very short window. I found that, you know, over the years, that not only I think is that well, I just feel that that's not the right way anymore, and I think more, more filmmakers, more indie filmmakers are coming to their, to their senses that you know we don't have to emulate the big guys and shoot, you know, an entire script in, you know, this little tiny window. If we can, let's get a little more breathing room in here, and you know that way we're not, you know, burning ourselves out within the first week. I mean, is that something you're finding out as well?

Jared Hess 25:41
Yeah, it's, you know, stretching just depends, I think, where the lines are drawn, as far as what you are and aren't doing, you know, especially in regards to budgeting and that kind of thing, you know, you've got, if everything's laid out and everybody, and everything is very transparent, and you kind of see from beginning to end, all the, you know, ABCD, you know, everything's light out, pre-productions done, you should be pretty ready right on pace, and not really kind of burning yourself out, but as you know, that never happened, so you be, you know, but that's cool, and you know, for the most part, that's kind of what I was brought along in that atmosphere, so it's, it's not comfortable for me, it's not the most ideal situation, but I excel in it, and let's at the end of the day, you know, I still, still get the job done, I get it the way I want it to look, and I think that, which counts, and so, yeah, telling a good story, right, that's what you're there to do, so

Dave Bullis 26:58
Yeah, exactly, and that's actually one of my next questions for you. Was, you know, you know what advice would you give to directors who work with cinematographers? You know, maybe there's something they do that you know is grading on cinematographers. There's some directors, or you know, maybe they're sometimes not clear enough. So, you know, if you, you know, what advice would you give to directors when they're working with cinematographers?

Jared Hess 27:22
Yeah, I mean, I think number one, you know, if you bring in a cinematographer and where you do a good job, you know, you look at their work, you said, 'Wow, this guy's good, and you brought him in to do something, I think you just trust him with it, you know, especially I try not to carry an ego with me, so I can't, you know, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing sometimes, but you know, go in, just try to do a good job, and once again, develop a rapport with your director, and see how he likes to, you know, and get on the same page with him, and, and really do as much pre production as humanly possible, so you, when you walk in, it is something that you're, you're really ready to go, you know exactly how you want it to look that matches up with the end product, and so that when they're going through daily, they're looking for eight, I think it shortens your days, you know. I think at the end of the time, at the end of the day, too, keeps them on budget because you're not sitting there tweaking with things consistently, or doing pickups, and that kind of thing. And yeah, I mean, number one thing is just trusting, you know, really, if you bring in somebody, do a job, and you see, and you, or, or you know, you've worked with them in the past, it's just trusting their, their eye, and, and that they're going to be there, and do what you want them to do. Actually, I've got a director here calling me now. Do you take it? I can call him back here in a moment. Are we almost about wrapping up here?

Dave Bullis 29:02
Yeah, probably like three more minutes. Is that okay?

Jared Hess 29:05
Yeah, 100%

Dave Bullis 29:07
So, you know, is there any advice then you have for first time cinematographers?

Jared Hess 29:13
I mean, yeah, I would say, you know, you know, develop develop relationships with, with, with people in the business. You know, networking is always great. No, I think doing things the right way the first time, and getting off on that bad foot, in regards to, you know, showing what you can do, but not stepping on people's toes, kind of gives you, because you're going to develop a reputation one way or another, so it might as well be a good reputation, you know. And you know, making things look, you know, scratch that itch, man. You know, that's the one thing I started doing anyways. I was like, man, this looks so great. How do I do this? And how can I do this with what I have. You know, how can I attain this look with what what I have to use, and you know, trying to recreate certain looks and certain ways of shooting, and always trying to, you know, change things up, so it's not always the repeat, you know, it's not not everything you do is the same, you know, because I think everybody who's picking up a camera and he's trying to be a TP is really just, you know, it's really just, it's an outlet for creativity, you know, so that outlet of creativity, you're trying to always come up with new looks, you may not be the first person to do that, but it's always a, I think it's self-satisfying when you are able to accomplish something that you know you pull off a look that you're like, man, I, I want it to look this way, I've got my mind's eye has got it, and when you, when it's in the can, and everything looks just the way you want it to be, and the delivery was right there, you know, you get that, that self joy, and if you're able to do it the right way, without stepping on his and her toes, and you know, pissing off this guy and that guy, you know, I think that that's really, it's really cool, really cool moment that I have. It's like, hey, Victor was happy, the producer is happy, that you know, the town loves working with me, you know. The PA was happy just to be there, you know, that kind of thing. When everybody just like, man, I was like, I love being there, and you kind of helped be a part of it. And then you also get that, that end project that, that looks fantastic. It's really gratifying,

Dave Bullis 32:02
Yeah. And you know, I concur. You know, it really is great when everyone sort of, you know, comes together. You know, just to.. I know you have to go, so just.. just to sort of close this out. You know, I recently was on a.. I was working with M Night Shyamalans, producer, okay? And we got to go to this post-production house, and it was a beautiful theater, and the guy who works there was saying, you know, that the track lighting that they use on the floor there, those floor lights, he said, as soon as they started screening footage of another movie, the director of cinematography was like, wait a minute, he goes, this color is off down in the bottom left here, what the hell is going on, and then he turned off the lights, so now it's like pitch black, except for the screen, and the direct photography was like, okay, now this is now this looks good. I remember this looking like this now, and you know, and everyone sort of, you know, you know, obviously, you know, some people I probably wouldn't even notice that, but obviously, you know, he did, because you know, a, as that eye

Jared Hess 32:59
Details are always something that you're, you're especially, you know, you're looking now, it's even more difficult, I think, because you have, you know, everybody is shooting, you're shooting constantly, because it's cheap, and you don't have your money's not Quentin Tarantino, so I have yet the ability to shoot on film, so you're just constantly shooting because it's cheap. You can just take another director, maybe watch down this monitor, you know. So, if they're not calibrated correctly, who knows what they're seeing, you know? Who knows what they're maybe they're looking at is the raw without a lut dropped in, and you're just, you know, you're looking at nonsense, essentially. So, yeah, there's.. it's.. it's an interesting thing, where you never know who's going to be looking at it, and where they're going to be looking at it, and.. and what lighting, you know, set up. Are they sitting in a dark room, they sit in a light room, are they looking at a video monitor, are they looking at its 24k monitor? Are they looking at an OLED? Yeah, so it's that's another thing I would say, especially with the the OLED thing, that's that's DPS best friend is an OLED monitor. If you can have one on set at all times, I was just doing that, because then you know exactly what you're seeing, and at the end of the day,

Dave Bullis 34:25
Yeah, that post production house recommended that as well, because they actually had their workflow recommendation, and that was on there, the monitor,

Jared Hess 34:33
Yeah, I mean,

Dave Bullis 34:34
That monitor, I mean,

Jared Hess 34:35
Yeah, an OLED monitor is it's especially for run and gun stuff, you're walking into fluorescent, you're walking into, you know, just who knows, and you're trying to set up, you want to make sure that you've got one of those on on site, because there's a couple of them out there, the Odyssey now has one where you can. A drop in a lot, and match it up, so it's pretty close to what your editor is going to be looking at, or your colors is going to be kind of looking at, so you know, correct your blacks and those kind of things, which is just, I mean, just incredible to have on sites, you're not guessing, and hoping that the guy you know, the color decides to go this way or that way. It's just, I mean, I can't tell you how much that saved me. It saved my probably my careers, just having one of those on on site at all times. You know, it is not as the analyst see a close to end product on especially low budget type stuff.

Dave Bullis 35:48
Yeah, that's you know, again, like one of the things they were saying was, you know, again, like these cinematographers, they always tell them how important that the particular monitor is. So, anyone listening to this. I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. The monitor we're talking about, Jared. I, you know, I know you have to go, so you know. In closing, you know where people find you out online.

Jared Hess 36:10
You can check out jaredvideo.com I also do. I'm doing the new show with Probellator for the upcoming fight of february 19 with Gracie and Shamrock, so you can check out my work there. The show will be released the week prior. Yeah, and I'm actually doing some stuff this week for ESPN, Phil. We're doing a couple bow gang type stuff, so yeah, I'm all over the place. I haven't, yeah, I haven't stopped working since the 10th, so,

Dave Bullis 36:43
So you're on Twitter as well, right?

Jared Hess 36:44
Yeah, Twitter, Jared had 06 and Instagram is Jared has 06 as well. That's usually just patients of my son, so

Dave Bullis 36:53
I will link to all that in the show notes. Everybody, Jared, I want to say, thank you very much for coming on.

Jared Hess 36:59
Hey, thanks for having me, man. Good talking,

Dave Bullis 37:02
Good talking to you too, buddy. Take care.

Jared Hess 37:03
Bye.

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BPS 475: The Art of Networking in Hollywood – Real Strategies That Work with Erman Baradi & Brandon Waites

June 11, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we dive into one of the most misunderstood yet essential aspects of filmmaking: networking. Joining the conversation are Erman Baradi and Brandon Waites, two filmmakers who have built reputations not just for their projects, but for their ability to connect people in meaningful ways. Their journey proves that Hollywood isn’t simply about talent — it’s about relationships.

Brandon’s path began in the military, where he developed discipline and structure before transitioning into filmmaking. While serving, he worked security during the filming of Transformers, witnessing firsthand how large-scale productions operate. That exposure reinforced his desire to enter the industry, but instead of rushing into Los Angeles blindly, he focused on building connections strategically. Erman, on the other hand, cultivated his storytelling passion early, eventually leveraging social media to create a presence long before physically relocating to LA. He intentionally spent years networking online before making the move, ensuring he already knew hundreds of industry professionals.

Their philosophy is simple but powerful: build relationships before you need them.

Too many aspiring filmmakers make the mistake of leading with their script. They attend events, corner producers, and immediately try to pitch. As the conversation reveals, this approach rarely works. The better strategy? Offer value first. Ask someone for coffee. Start a conversation. Learn about their journey. Build rapport. Hollywood is a small town, and reputation travels fast. Being respectful, patient, and genuine leaves a far stronger impression than forcing a screenplay into someone’s hands.

One of the most compelling parts of their discussion revolves around understanding hierarchy. Assistants and interns are often overlooked, yet they serve as gatekeepers. Erman and Brandon stress the importance of respecting everyone in the ecosystem — from assistants to executives. Today’s assistant may become tomorrow’s producer. Building authentic connections across every level of the industry is far more sustainable than chasing a single “big name.”

They also emphasize patience. Success stories often hide years of persistence behind a single breakthrough. Doors rarely swing open overnight. Thick skin is mandatory. Rejection is constant. Sometimes the answer will be blunt — even harsh. But those who endure, adapt, and continue reaching out respectfully are the ones who remain in the game long enough for opportunities to appear.

This mindset directly influenced the creation of their platform, The Film Empire. Rather than launching another contest focused solely on prize money, they built a system centered around mentorship. Winners gain meetings with established producers and executives — real access that fosters long-term relationships. It’s not just about recognition; it’s about conversation, guidance, and getting in the room.

Ultimately, Erman Baradi and Brandon Waites demonstrate that networking isn’t about collecting business cards. It’s about cultivating trust. It’s about consistency. It’s about showing up professionally, both online and in person. In an industry where talent is abundant but relationships are rare, the filmmakers who succeed are often the ones who master connection before they master distribution deals.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:03
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
Without further ado, I talk to two guys who have been named some of the best networkers out in Hollywood. These guys are both fantastic. And we talk a lot about networking, getting your foot in the door, meeting people at parties. I mean, now, do they attend parties, but they also throw their own parties. This is episode with guests Erman Baradi and Brandon Waites.

Brandon Waites 2:19
Yeah, well, growing up, I always had a strong interest in going to the movie theaters and watching movies, reading books, and, you know, in my own imagination, create creating that book within my own mind. And as I got older, into the military, a lot of our off time we would watch movies. There's not much else to do. So I started watching movies over and over, and at a certain point it's more like, Okay, what else can I learn about this movie? So I started doing you know, whether it was research or watching behind the scenes, and I just got more and more interested within the filmmaking aspect, producing, directing, all that. And while I was in the military, I actually had the opportunity to do security for the guys Michael Bay and his team for the Transformers movies, and that just basically kind of reinforced my interest. I was like, You know what? This is definitely what I want to do. And once I got out, I, you know, started building my connections, and going from there, met Ramon, and we built a couple companies, and we're still pushing it.

Dave Bullis 3:23
So when you were working with security for Michael Bay, was that, like all the Transformers movies, or just a particular one?

Brandon Waites 3:30
It was the first one that was based out in Alamogordo White Sands area. And then I ended up moving, once I got out of the military, and moved out here to, you know, Tucson, Arizona at that time, and they started filming. I want to say it was the second one out here in the Boneyard. So I was around for two of the films,.

Dave Bullis 3:51
Gotcha, gotcha. I remember the the second one is the one where, or maybe was the third one where they went to Egypt. And I can't remember which transformers that is, but I remember they went to Egypt for one of them. And I just would, I just remember, but, well, not just Egypt, but they, I remember they were going to all of these different places like that. And I'm always just wondering, you know about, about security, about places like that, because you brought it up, because, you know, you see all these big, big productions. And even when they're here in Philadelphia or in New York, you know, usually they have pas that are like guarding entrances and exits. I always think of myself, you got to have somebody else, you know, a 20 year old pa telling you not to go down an alleyway or whatever is sometimes just doesn't cut it

Brandon Waites 4:34
Right, right! Yeah. Well, we did more. So was security for the actual like aircraft and the flight lines, anything that was military related, making sure no one was going where they weren't supposed to, you know, certain parts of aircraft aren't supposed to be filmed, and then making sure the filmmakers aren't being bugged by, you know, anybody trying to get on base just to see them. Yeah, so that was kind of my job at that time.

Dave Bullis 4:59
Gotcha. And that's. Yeah, and I wasn't completely off base when I was talking about the PA, because I was wondering, because you mentioned, yeah, you kept people off. You know, certain people off, the out of their way, which is important, really cool, quick story. I was actually one time filming at a, on an air at a on an airstrip, and we got approached by one of the, I feel, what do you even call it maybe a director of whatever. And she goes, Okay, you guys have to stop filming at this particular time. And we said, why? And she goes, there's a VIP coming in. And so as we're filming, these two jets came in, and then we were told that we absolutely had to end right now. And later on, we found that Joe bought that was Joe Biden coming in.

Brandon Waites 5:41
Oh, wow, yeah. What's was it on a military installation?

Dave Bullis 5:45
Or no, it was a, it was a airport up here in Philadelphia. Oh, cool, cool. So apparently, I don't think he landed there. I think the airspace, like everything, had to be cleared out. Or maybe he did, because they said, if we, if we didn't leave, we were gonna get stuck there.

Brandon Waites 6:04
Oh yeah, probably security was gonna get super tight or something, yeah.

Dave Bullis 6:08
And that's when there's all the Jets, like, these are fighter jets. And I was like, oh yeah, this isn't, you know what I mean. This is kind of odd. So that's when I, I, we just kind of broke down and left, but, but, yeah, that's, my one brush. Then I later on, I got to meet Joe Biden again at another event. But I'm sorry, that's a whole nother story. I don't think people want to hear me talk about Joe Biden.

Erman Baradi 6:29
No, you're good. That's for another that's for another episode.

Dave Bullis 6:34
Yeah, the Joe Biden episode.

Brandon Waites 6:36
So my question is, when you met him the second time, did you tell him thank you for interrupting your filming?

Dave Bullis 6:42
I only got to shake his hand for, you know, and it was like, boom, he was gone. I didn't get to talk to him or anything. So okay, because it was in passing, and it was, it was what, that's a whole nother story, though. But, and then also joining us is Arman. Arman, I want to say, you know, thank you so much for coming on, because you and I have been back and forth, and we you and I met way even before I met Brandon. You and I have been talking back and forth, and then I had on a mutual friend of ours who name escapes me at the moment. Damn, it always happens, yeah, but who's I always do this? I always blank out when I'm interviewing people, but she and I were talking and, oh, this is gonna kill me. She's gonna murder me that. I can't remember her name right now. Oh, anyways,

Erman Baradi 7:30
What does she do?

Dave Bullis 7:32
She lives in Dallas. She's a consultant. She does Whitney Davis, there you go. Yeah, as you tell, I'm an excellent storyteller. He remember that person, you did that thing?

Erman Baradi 7:48
So that that one city, that one state,

Dave Bullis 7:51
Yeah, exactly that person, she does that thing, yeah. So that's so she kept saying, when she was on, she's like, You got to have her mom on. You got to have her mom on. So I said, You know what? I've been friends with him for a while. I've been trying to get him on, but it's like we can never actually get our schedules to meet.

Erman Baradi 8:06
Yeah, we've been Twitter friends for what, maybe five years now. Yeah, yeah, we can't. We just kept, like, in passing, like, Hey, what are you doing this Saturday? Or, you know, like, it's like we always miss each other, but hey, we have each other now. So that's, that's what's important,

Dave Bullis 8:22
Yeah, yeah. It's like two ships in the night, my friend, we were just constantly. It's so, yeah. So yeah. I remember when I first met you on Twitter, too. Again, the power of Twitter through networking. And I remember, you know, us going back and forth. And now, you know, and then we, when you know, we got to talking again pretty regularly. I was like, Oh, great. You know, his, his, he's built up this following, I see all these awesome things you're doing, and now I'm glad that we can actually talk, because I want to actually, you know, we can sort of start getting into this stuff. But so I'm going to ask you, though, the same question, Erman you know, how did you get started in this whole, whole wacky world that we call the film industry?

Erman Baradi 8:59
So I also had a curiosity in storytelling. When I was a kid, I was just like anyone else in the 90s. I was a big fan of Power Rangers and all that stuff. So as a kid, I thought it'd be cool to be like that on TV. I thought I would want to be performer. So, you know, I would play pretend with my brothers, you know, at home, and be Power Rangers and others kind of superheroes come sixth grade, I entered a very smart school for it was a magnet school as well. We called it in Virginia Beach. And, you know, I found myself not so academically, academically gifted as other people. So I kind of used the outlet of writing to to get away, if that makes sense. And I was given the opportunity to join active class or other electives. But, you know, I didn't see them, a lot of Asian Americans on television. So I thought, okay, I probably need to go towards another route. So, you know, I would be sitting there in math class and science class, and while other people write formulas, I'll be writing like stories in my notebook, you know? So I kind of cultivated my love of writing in middle school and in high school, all my high school, all my English teachers were like, Yeah, you need to be a writer. You need to pursue this more. So, like every year they say this. Say exact same thing, and I'm okay. So I took their worst consideration, and I went to film school out of Virginia Beach. After film school, I, you know, did a lot. I did some internships here and there in Virginia Beach, and then it kind of led me to an internship in LA so I went to mosaic, which shares the same floor as Atlas entertainment. So Atlas, Atlas entertainment does all like the big movies, like they just did just League, they did Wonder Woman, they did the Dark Knight series. Mosaic was more so the literary slash management side. So I learned how to do script coverage there. I did a lot of script reading. And after that, I went back to bridgerton beach, and I hopped on social media and kind of created a name for myself on social media. So I created the name Irma in LA, because it was kind of like a wink wink, nudge nudge. People think I would. People thought I was in LA and I was not in LA. So I get all these organizations contacting me because they thought, because through social media, to thought I was in LA. So there was these conferences, these screen nightgown organizations asking to hire me. And, you know, I kind of played along. I was like, Yeah, sure, I'll do this. So when I did the conferences, when I did other script coverage for other organizations to kind of segue into doing events, segwayed into doing celebrity interviews and interviewing filmmakers, etc, so all that kind of snowballed into just a network of people. So I told myself, you know, before I move I moved to LA. By the way, it took me five years before I moved to LA. I want to know at least 500 people. So that was my goal, was to just create a network of people. Because I know a lot of people kind of rush into the city without a plan, without knowing anybody, and I was, I was not going to be that person. So, yeah, it took me a few years to just snowball my network. So that's why I started doing events. You know, me and Brandon do a competition, screenwriting competitions, filmmaking competitions. So it was a five year 656, year plan for me.

Dave Bullis 12:30
Yeah, do you find that that's that that's kind of common, where people just move to LA without a plan?

Erman Baradi 12:37
I've, I've had a lot of friends who lasted like a month, two months, because, you know, I get it. Lot of people just want to do it, you know, and it's harsh, man, because, you know, I nothing. I'm not talking bad about anybody. But some people come here to do the whole, you know, bartender thing, waitress thing, waiter thing, and they're miserable, and they don't know anybody in the industry, and they come out to these, like, you know, like club events, even, like, or they expect to meet, like a producer at the bar, you know, they it's funny and, you know, and I, like I said, I wasn't going to be that person. I want to know people beforehand, before coming out. So I just laid a foundation, you know, whether it be social media, through events, through just asking people to take meetings. That was my foundation. Sorry, I did that for many years, and it's, it's been growing. It's been growing. So for other people who want to come to the city, yeah, I would just, just have a, have a plan, you know, or even network beforehand, before coming out here, before you change your address, make sure you know quite a few people,

Dave Bullis 13:46
Yeah, and I know what you exactly, what you mean Erman I've had friends too who have moved out to LA without a plan. And some of lasted like, you know, a couple months. Some lasted a week. I actually had a friend who moved out there for a week. He moved Yeah, yep. He actually flew out there, and he was like, I just got to do it. He on a whim. He like, just got all this stuff together. He didn't, he didn't really know anybody, per se. He had a few friends here and there, but they were on the same boat. They were all, like, struggling, working as bartenders or whatever, hoping to meet somebody at a bar, just like you stay, you know, just like you said. And he was here for about here. It was there for about a week, and then he said, I just can't do it. He ran out of money, he and he had nowhere else to go. And he actually got the got the plane ride back, and that was it. And has never been back. So

Erman Baradi 14:42
I know. Oh go ahead.

Dave Bullis 14:43
No, I was gonna make a joke, but I was just gonna say the city, the city kind of crushed his soul, but,

Erman Baradi 14:50
Oh no, yeah, I know a film student of mine who came to LA thought he had the best script ever said to himself, you know, I'm gonna get hired in the month. Month, and a month went by. He nothing happened. So he left.

Dave Bullis 15:04
Yeah, so, you know, as we sort of talk about, you know, the the how, you know, a lot of people have gone and and experienced, you know, the, you know, the sort of the dark side of it. Have either of you, Brandon or Armand, have either one of you had somebody who's actually gone out there and gotten, gotten, you know, I hit or gotten, I don't know what maybe in play. I guess I don't always have your eight either of you ever, ever known somebody like that who's actually gone out there and kind of struck gold?

Brandon Waites 15:34
Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, we've had a few people from our mixology events that have, you know, networked through our events, and just by doing that, they've been able to secure some type of job. Iman, I don't know if we're allowed to, you know, say names or anything, but if we are all I should say,

Erman Baradi 15:51
I don't want to say Dave, yeah, but going off of what Brandon said, we had somebody come in for my home city, Home City. She came in, and a week after coming in, she went to one of our events, and, well, behold, she got a she got a assistant position with an actor that's pretty, pretty well known nowadays because he came to the event too. So stuff like that. I mean, we've, we've been blessed to help people, to help people, other people, but event, I do know somebody who came out here on, you know, having, having the talent she, she didn't strike gold right away, but can be, like, a year or two later, she got one of those, what do you call it? You know, those comedy troupes that have those writing initiatives. It was one of those things where she, what had like one of those writing she became a member of women's writing troops based on her channel. So it can't happen. It can't happen. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that people, it doesn't happen to some people, but a lot of people just don't have plans. So just going back on that, yeah, it's, it is kind of does kind of crush you here, if you don't have any goals lined up, you know, like, yeah, yeah,

Brandon Waites 17:04
I was gonna say it could also be a lot of luck, you know, being at the right place, at the right time, and bumping into somebody who you know has the ability to hire you, you know, at a Starbucks or whatever. So I recommend, if you know anybody that either they're not from more from LA, or they are from LA, get out to as many like networking events as possible, because you never know who you're gonna meet.

Erman Baradi 17:29
Yeah, and dress nicely.

Dave Bullis 17:33
Yeah. You know, it's funny. Erman I remember one time I went to an event here in Philadelphia, and I was going to talk to this, to this person, again, I'm not using any names or anything. It's just, you know, all just just a story. And I ran into this person who I was going to meet randomly, because I looked for him when I got there, he wasn't there. You know, an hour or so went by, and finally, as I was getting ready to leave, he There he is. This guy was so belligerently drunk, the bartender was trying to take his keys away from him so he didn't try to drive home.

Brandon Waites 18:09
Wow, yeah, yeah, don't do that. Don't do that at networking events. You know, Erman, I kind of have a funny story, and I'll try to, I'll try to make it quick so I don't want to take up too much time, but just to go off of you never know who you're going to meet, and you never know where Arman myself and Armand myself and another friend, we decided to go see a movie at the Arc Light in LA, and we ended up, you know, after the movie was War of the Worlds, right or not? War of the Worlds, War Of The Planet Of The Apes, right? Erman, yes, sir, yeah. So we finished the movie, and we walk out, and I tell her mom, I have to go use the restroom. So I go the restroom real quick. And while I'm in the restroom, he ends up texting me, but I don't get his text because the service in the little bathroom area. So I come walking out, and he's like, Hey, man, he's over at the bar area. He's all excited. And I'm like, who I thought he was talking about, our friend who went to go validate his parking and I was like, who our friend? And he's like, No man, didn't you get my text? And I was like, No. And so we're walking up the stairs during this conversation, and he's like, cutie, Quentin Tarantino. And I'm like, No way. Like, I started shaking with excitement. I look over and there's Quentin Tarantino standing at the bar with his fiancee. And I mean, that was such a cool opportunity. We hung out there for like 30 minutes. We chatted, shook his hand. Super cool, super cool moment.

Dave Bullis 19:31
So was he actually approachable when he went up to him?

Brandon Waites 19:34
Yeah, he totally was. He's gonna let me buy a drink for his fiance. But when she came back, she was in the restroom as well. When she came back, he told her, like, hey, these guys are gonna buy, these guys are gonna buy you a drink. And she's like, No, no, it's all right, I'm not thirsty. So, you know, he, yeah, he came over to us and told us, like, Hey, don't worry about it. So that was kind of a little let down, because, you know, we saw it as an opportunity to chat with him some more once we brought the. Drink over.

Erman Baradi 20:11
But funny story is, after that happened, we kind of like, took the L we took the loss, and we sat down for like 30 minutes trying to figure out how what's our next move? How do play this. So sat there for 30 minutes like just trying to figure it out. And finally we we got the courage again to re approach him and say, Hey, this is what we do.

Brandon Waites 20:29
Yeah, yeah. We give Him our business cards. And then we shook his hand one more time, and we took off. We don't want to bug him too much, but he was super approachable. He was cool, you know, I don't know if anyone's seen that clip of him where, you know, I think it was up in what's called parks, yeah, yeah, up at Sundance, where the paparazzi is filming them, and he kind of goes off on the dude at Starbucks, kind of pushes him. He's not like that. I mean, the dude just wants, wants his own space. And I think he asked that dude, you know, Hey, leave me alone, man, and the dude was kind of antagonizing situation. He's not like that. You respect him like a human being, and he's going to treat you like when I asked him if I could take a picture, and he said he like. He appreciated that I was there. He definitely shake my hand, but he didn't feel like taking pictures at the moment. So you know, I respected his wishes, and I didn't get punched.

Dave Bullis 21:25
Well, I mean, you were in the Air Force though, Brandon, you could take care of yourself, right?

Brandon Waites 21:27
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, go ahead.

Dave Bullis 21:32
Those gonna say like, you know, I don't know if they're if they're still doing the hand to hand, or if they're just going to all BJJ, but I'm sure either way to handle yourself, right?

Brandon Waites 21:40
Oh, yeah, they teach you all that. My career field was security forces, which people aren't familiar with that in the Air Force, it's basically the MPs for the Air Force, military police. So yeah, we have to go through all that training over at San Antonio, San Antonio's Air Force Base, which is also known as Lackland Air Force Base.

Erman Baradi 22:03
Yeah, Brandon can totally take on QT.

Dave Bullis 22:06
Sure. We got to talk to the UFC see if we can get this to happen. But, but so let me just ask you this, you guys, you know, you did everything professional. Obviously, you don't want to be that person to that goes up and says, like, Oh, here's my screenplay or here's my movie pitch. You don't want to be that person, obviously, because the three of us know better than that. So let me ask you this, just looking back on it, is there anything that you guys would have done differently?

Brandon Waites 22:37
Oh, yeah, yeah. One thing I would say, um, somebody like Quentin Tarantino. You know, there's a handful of people in the film industry that, you know, I would love to meet, just because I'm a big fan. And I kind of, I would say, we probably approached him before we gathered our senses. We were super excited. You know, you, your adrenaline takes over, and you kind of start shaking. So I would say, take a deep breath, realize that they're people too, you know, and approach them calmly. Because, honestly, Roman can attest to this. I love Quentin's movies, Pulp Fiction. Resort dogs, yeah, yeah. Reservoir Dogs. I was trying to think of the one with Jamie Foxx slipping my mind. Django Unchained. Yeah. Django Unchained, you know, I love all those movies. So when I saw him, I just, I kind of, like lost my senses. Instead of being like a, you know, a filmmaker who wants to work with him, one day, I became a fan, and I I lost my senses for that moment. And instead of, you know, approaching him to talk about, you know, like, Hey, I'm a filmmaker too, it was more so like, Hey, can I take a picture with you? Like, I didn't know what to say, you know, I kind of lost, I lost my brain for a moment. But like Ramon said, like her mom said, we sat down at the tables near the bar where he was sitting, and we kind of talked to each other, and, you know, took deep breaths and figured out how we could re approach him professionally. And he was super cool. He took our business cards, thanked us for for being respectful to him, and his his fiancee, tried to give a muffin to our other friend that was there. So, I mean, they're cool people, yeah,

Erman Baradi 24:22
Yeah, yeah. I would have, for me, just going back on the whole playing thing, we could have, I guess, you know, teamed up first and kind of strategized before approaching him, because Brandon, Brandon calls me like, Brandon calls me the less shy one of the other two. But for me, like, as a fan, I literally, brand could tell you, I stood behind Brandon. I was like, Brandon, like, I can't talk to him right now. Like I'm sweating, like my knees are shaking right now, dude. So Brandon. Brandon had a bigger call that day he approached, and I kind of stood behind him. Like, yeah, what he said, what he said? Like, I was just super shy, man.

Brandon Waites 24:59
And yeah. Right, yeah. He was my hype man that day. Yeah? Well, he said, Yeah, we, we want to take a picture.

Dave Bullis 25:08
So her mind was kind of like the Flavor Flav, yeah, exactly. You know, I've had friends who've actually on the actually, I've had people on the podcast who actually worked with with Quentin, and actually they worked on Django together. And it was, his name was John Connor, not the guy from Terminator, but Connor, he actually worked in the counter department for for Django. And he was like, Yeah, qt is one of the greatest guys to work with. And you know, he goes, he knows his stuff, and he's just, you know, he The days are long, but he goes, everyone's having fun. He goes, like, you know, Tarantino directs in his crazy ways energetic. And he goes, he's just an awesome guy didn't know, just in general to work with.

Brandon Waites 25:58
Yeah, yeah. I believe it, because when we met him, he was the same way. He was like, Oh, hey guys, hey, like, like, super excited to, like, meet us. So, yeah, you could buy a drink. Like, like, I think that's just how he is. He has a energetic personality about him, whether he's actually shooting a film or if he's, you know, hanging out at a bar. He's just a really cool person.

Erman Baradi 26:20
Yeah, I saw a behind the scenes feature at one time of a scene shot for for not wearing dogs Pulp Fiction. It's the the twist scene, and he's like, beyond the camera, dancing himself, so like that. That's a personality we want to work with in the future. You know, those types of directors and producers and cetera, who have fun while on set, not just like we're not just militant on set, you know, you do this, you do that, but who can provide a really energetic, fun atmosphere, exactly.

Dave Bullis 26:54
So is there? Has there ever been another time, though, like, where you sort of been going these networking events? Because, you know, I wanted to talk to you guys about, you know, networking and hustling. Networking and hustling in Hollywood. I know hustling sometimes can be, you know, a weird word. Sometimes it has a negative connotation, but I think it's a good thing. Now, you know, when people say hustling, it's not, you know, it just means you're, you're grinding it out, you're working, you're, you're trying to pursue something, you know, you know. And that's what I wanted to talk to you guys, mainly about, is these, you know, hustling and networking. In Hollywood and so just to sort of, to just continue this conversation, you know, what were some of the things that way, you know, when you first got to town, maybe that, or even just networking online with people like Arman, you, you mentioned this too earlier on about networking online, you know, what are some of the things that you've done or you do now that really have benefited you? And just, just finding and talking to people, like finding certain people to talk to, or even happy or, or even the best, when people reach out to you and say, Hey, or, you know, hey, Brandon, here, I'm on, I found you online, you know, like, so what are some of the tips that you could share that of some stuff that's that's helped you out?

Brandon Waites 28:02
Oh, yeah. Vermont, yeah, yeah, I'll go first. Just something that I've noticed, whether it's, you know, people reaching out to us because we are starting to produce projects, or getting in contact with finance areas who want to produce films that we're producing, or whatever, the big thing is, when you reach out to somebody is Don't, don't make it seem like you you just want to use that person for the resources you need to be more so, like you want to build a relationship or friendship with that person. So like, when Arman and I first reached got together. Armand was holding a event, and I could have been one of those people that just, you know, message her mom. And was like, hey, Armand, like, Can I can I get some tickets to your event? Like, hook me up, dude. I wasn't like that. I had messaged her mom. And I was like, Hey, man, you know what, I'm actually a student at one of your your school in Virginia, but I was taking the online master's program, and we from there, we just kept talking, and we built a friendship that turned into a partnership. So building a actual relationship and not just trying to use somebody for their resources, that's a very valuable tip I would I would share.

Erman Baradi 29:23
Yeah, and going off of that like people may find it frustrating that building my relationship takes over, takes time, but it does take time. You know you're not gonna work with so and so because you message him one time, be like, Hey, can I work with you? No, it's gonna, it takes, it's gonna take a series of conversations before you finally work with somebody. So that is very key. What Brandon said. Another thing I would say is kind of like podcasts like this. I I would take even starting it off, you know, the last three or four years. I would take any interview, no matter how big or small was you. Because if someone wants to work me, they can literally Google me and see my my history, my background. They can see my interview, see what I'm about. So if, if someone approached you about an interview, no matter how big or small it may feel, take it and yeah, so when I reach out to this, when we when we do events or do contests, and when we do some outreach, I say, Hey, here's some background on us. You know, would you like to do it with us or not? And because of the fact that we have searchable names, it does go in our feet.

Dave Bullis 30:46
So, you know, you mentioned big or small. I mean, so you've gotten so you're doing a pretty small interview right now, Armand, but, but no way. So, but no, no, yeah, yeah, it's, there's me, and then there's like, the Marc Maron podcast, right? So, so, but no, it's, you know, all kidding aside, you know, I realized that zu Orman is, you know, there's when I a couple years ago, when I was doing projects, I and I just sort of reached out and said, hey, you know what's out there? Because I didn't know. And there's so many people who were wanted to me to come on to do different things, or do a podcast or and that this is like it when it was still in it, and it's still, it's somewhat infant stages. And there were different people asked me to do, like, you know, articles or not articles, but like an interview, and it'd written up and stuff like that. And, you know, I started to realize when people are going out to do projects like, let's just say, you have a movie at Armon, and you're looking to, you know, get publicity for it and everything. You know, I think everybody wants to be in, like, The Hollywood Reporter variety. They also want to be on Mark maron's podcast. They all this and that. But then I go on the flip side, and I say, you know, what if you just did, instead of just doing, doing one interview to hit like a million people? What if you did 10 interviews that did 100,000 each, or 20 that did 10,000 each? Do you see where I'm going with this? And I think you have more of a shot with the latter, because, you know, most of us don't have friends that have, you know, a million reaching whatever they do, whether it be YouTube or podcasts. So I think that's, that's something that a lot of filmmakers, especially, you know, indie filmmakers, who have a budget of, you know, let's just say, under what, under under 4 million or under five, I don't know. Just use that as a barometer if they have that. You know, usually there's a market for that. There's a niche for that. And then also, there's a, you know, there's a lot of different ways you could play that, in terms of going on a podcasts, even, even when I get pitched to this podcast, it's, I get so many emails, and that's why, and I'm like, a little nobody in Philadelphia, I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to be like Mark Marin or Adam Carolla or any of these other guys. I mean, they must get floored every every five seconds.

Erman Baradi 33:04
That's so true. Yeah, yeah. But See also, if I was a celebrity and I was approached by a podcast like, that's brand new, and that had, like, maybe two listeners, I would actually take it, because what if that podcast blew up because of me, that I can be like, Hey, I helped us this new, you know, media company blow up. So who knows? Man, you might be able to get, like, a big time filmmaker one day, and they they help your numbers grow, and they can be like, Hey, I helped Dave bulls podcast become what it is today.

Dave Bullis 33:38
I've actually reached out to a lot of people to kind of do that. Hopefully I end up being the filmmaker that does it for myself. You know what? I mean, I can kind of be, like, there you go. Even better. Yeah, exactly. I like to be the guy who launched, you know, and then you kind of have the pot. You kind of live in both worlds because, you know, again, you just try. Because I see people online all the time, they're always trying to get, like, you know, Kevin Smith or whoever, on their podcast and, and by the way, I think Quinn Tarantino, I think he's very smart for acting on social media because, because I think he realizes if he got on there, it would be nothing, but people just pitching him with stuff. Oh, geez, absolutely. So as we, as we sort of talk you about, you know, and then that's what, again, one of the reasons it's one of the bad spots of social media, you know. But usually social media, you know, I always tell people, it's a tool like anything else, you know. So people sometimes can go really bad. Sometimes you can go really well. And that's why, you know, I think a lot of celebrities, though, they get pissed all the time, like, I mean, Kevin Smith uses it to kind of sort of dialog with people. Sometimes, Tom Cruise just talks one way, you know, I mean, so it's kind of, you know, everything is kind of, you know, how you wield it. And, you know, just before I forget, I wanted to mention to Arman, I You mentioned the people reaching out to you on Twitter. I actually had somebody reach out. It's been Instagram, and Instagram is slowly becoming my favorite social media site. And I had this, this company reach out to me, and they sell, they help you get their real estate company in Hollywood, and they started following me, and I followed them back, and they reached out to me immediately. So it's like, you know, an auto DM, and right off the bat, they're asking, if you know, I'm in the market for a home out in Hollywood, and I'm just, I'm just, I'm already, I'm like, oh, right, we're already getting the conversation just started, and you want me? You want to sell me a $3 million home? All right?

Erman Baradi 35:34
Sounds great. Oh my God, dude, wow.

Dave Bullis 35:38
People, yeah, it was just funny, man, because I was like, you know, usually you have some kind of, you know, I mean, I don't know, a pitch like that is really hard to swallow. Being like, Hey, you want to buy a house out of Hollywood. I'm like, no, what the hell. That's a hell of a way to start something. But yes, because I had the writer of John Wick on the podcast, Derek holstead and Daryl nice. And Derek was even joking about that. He goes, Yeah. He goes, my his wife. Before he wrote John Wick, was like, Listen, you know, when you write something well and sell it, we'll go and we'll buy a house in Malibu or whatever. And he goes, Yeah, we went looking at houses after he sold John Wick, and they were starting at like 1.5 for these little dinky houses that were like, absolutely nothing. He's like, this is $1.5 million Wow. I mean, it's just like, the real estate market is just crazy. The real estate market is just crazy, man. It's just, I don't know. I just always find that stuff funny, especially because I saw there was, there was a news story recently about this house in California. It was foreclosed on, and it went for like, 1.2 million, or something like that or something, and it was like, this little dinky house that was in total disrepair. But the real estate market out there is just in such demand that that's, that's how it's that crappy house sold so just, it just goes to show you, man. But you know, just as we continue talking about networking, you know, Brandon, I want to ask you, and then I'm going to throw the same question to you, Armand, you know, what was, what was, what is like the worst networking experience you've ever had?

Brandon Waites 37:18
That's a That's a good question. Um, can I think of anything? I mean, most of my networking experiences have been pretty good. Armani, can you think of anything I've told you in the past that has gone gone wrong for me? Safe? Um, yeah. Everything's going good.

Erman Baradi 37:47
Yeah, I've never met personally, like, I don't have any stories of me like messing up, but I will say this, I this is something I witnessed firsthand. We had an event back in my hometown, Virginia Beach, two years ago, and one of the main speakers was Alan lankets, who was Oscar nominated for straight out of Compton. Yeah. So after the event, we had this mixer with all the speakers and all the attendees. And, you know, we were fortunate to have all the speakers come out to actually attend and then hang out with the attendees. So that was cool. There was a person who approached a circle that Alan gathered like, you know, there's, there's five speakers, and so each speaker had, like, their own pocket of people talking to them. And so Alan was talking to somebody and or the group of people, and this random person, I guess, who came to the event, he approached him with a script in hand, not just any script in hand, but it was crumpled up. Like it was even, like, first off, don't give someone your script first and foremost, like in the middle of a conversation, but like it was like, crumpled up, like stains all over it. It was so professional, it was so bad. And Alex looked at him like, yeah. Like, I forgot he said, but I can just imagine what was going through his head. Like, Fine Time, buddy. Don't do that ever. So that was, like, a that's a big no no when you literally give your script to somebody in the middle of a mixer or middle of a conversation, that's, like, the absolutely wrong way to do it. So I'm I was very embarrassed about that, but that's a funny story to tell, like, looking back,

Dave Bullis 39:23
Yeah, it's the stories like that, you know, which I was kind of, you know, when I asked the question I was kind of looking for, because even, you know, most, I mean you and Brandon, I know you guys know what you're doing, and obviously you're not gonna, you know, go off the deep in or anything and but usually when you see other people at networking events, that's when things start to get go bad, especially when they're newbies and they're very, very desperate. You know, I've just seen, I've seen the gamut of things happen. But really quickly, a funny, funny story, speaking of Quentin Tarantino, a friend of mine ran into Tim Roth at a networking event. And cool and true story. This is a true story. My friend goes, my friend goes, Hey. He goes, so he meets Tim Ross I think is it was his manager or agent? And he goes, so what do you do? He goes, Oh, I'm an agent, manager. And he goes, my one of my clients is here, Tim Roth. And he and my friend says it Tim Roth, I shit you not. He goes, so what do you do? And Tim Roth goes, and Tim and Tim Roth goes, Oh, I'm an actor. He goes, You ever seen any Quentin Tarantino's movies? He goes, Yeah. He goes, well. He goes, I'm in pretty much all of them. And my friend was like, Oh, really. So my friend tried to give Tim Roth his business card. He was, no, no, I won't take yours, but you can take mine. And Tim just gave him his business card, and that was it. I told my friend, he should, he should, you know, whatever he has to do, even if he has to write a snail mail letter, just say, Here you go. Say, remember me. I'm the guy who didn't know who you were. I think he was. I think he would have stuck so out. You know what I mean. I think he would have, like, been so memorable that I think Tim would have remembered him if he had said that to him,

Erman Baradi 41:18
That I Yeah, that would be a fantastic story. Or, or kind of a throw, a callback, you know, like, yeah, do you remember you? Because you're the guy who didn't remember who I was, and thanks for having the guts to to remind me that

Dave Bullis 41:35
He's like, You're that guy who doesn't know anything, right?

Brandon Waites 41:41
Yeah! Oh, yeah. I was gonna say, I think that's a great story to tell, because when you are at those networking events, you should, you should do some what of your, of your research on the people that are going to be there. And you know, if you know somebody's name, you know, but you don't know what they look like. Google them real quick. I mean, we have the amazing technology within our fingertips. You know, you have a phone. Type in, you know, one of our good buddies, you could type in Jeff Howard. A lot of people, you know, they know his movies, but they might not know who he is. He's the CO writer of Gerald's Game on Netflix or Oculus or Ouija, Origin of Evil, and he's a great guy. So you could hear that, oh, Jeff Howard's going to be at this event. You might not know what he looks like, but before you walk into that event, Google his name. You see what he looks like, and then you can walk up and not, you know, make the mistake of actually bumping into Jeff Howard and saying, what do you do? You know, it makes you look a little more professional, if you know who these guys are, even though they're not as famous as the guys in front of the cameras.

Dave Bullis 42:48
Yeah, I don't know why people don't use the internet more, or you have your phone with you at all times. Everyone has a phone with him at all times. I know. Yeah, seriously, and I don't know why people don't use it more when they're going to go talk to people. I mean, there was a thing here in Philadelphia for M Night, Shyamalan, and, like, as soon as it was over and he was coming off the stage, people were like, asking him, like, Hey, how can I pitch you a script, this and that? And he was, you know, and he uses the answer, oh, just send it to my office. Well, you know, I know exactly what's gonna happen with that script, if they've ever send it where it's just gonna go right into the shredder. So, you know what I mean, but it's just, you know what I mean? It's just, it's they don't understand how anything works. I think that it's like someone's gonna read their screenplay right then and there, you know? I mean, it's just, uh, I you know? I mean, like they just think that it's everyone's gonna stop whatever they're doing. And I had a friend of mine who was trying to give a script to Lee Shriver, and I'm like, No, don't do that. Please don't do that. Don't just leave him alone. Because they she was like, I because they were in the same place a couple of times she goes, I think he's in here. I think I'm gonna give it to him. And I said, please don't, please don't do it.

Brandon Waites 43:59
That reminds me of the movie, the room with who was it? Joe Apatow in that movie. How so painful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Have you? Have you seen the room? Dave, yes, yeah, yeah. You remember the scene where he walks up to Joe Apatow, who's having dinner, and he wants to give him a script, and Joe Apatow is like, I wouldn't read your script in a million years. Like, get out of here. You know, that's what it reminds me of, is people trying to do too much. And again, it goes back to what I said earlier. Like, if you somehow find a way to build a relationship with these power movers in Hollywood, like, oh, invite them out to coffee. You know, that's a big thing that Armand and I do before we ask them to do events or whatever, we'll ask them if they'll meet up for coffee. And what that does is it lets them see that, you know, you're not just trying to make first contact. Say, Hey, let me send you a script. You're. Saying, Hey, let me buy you a coffee so we could talk. I want to get to know you. And yeah, I'm not that. I'm not saying the odds are a lot better, but that actually makes them more open to meeting up with you if they have the time. A lot of these guys are busy 11 months out of the year, 12 months out of the year, they don't have any time, but if they do, you know, they're more than willing to meet for coffee and give advice,

Erman Baradi 45:26
Yeah, and the worst thing they can say is no. Like, if they say no, it's like, okay, well, let us know when you are let me know when you are available. And I'd love to take your coffee then. So yeah, a lot of times we'll be out of town too busy, or they're not native, or they're not native with this current project. Like, okay, well, hopefully next time, when you're Do you have breathing, when you do have time to breathe, and let me know, and I'll love to take you then and just continue that conversation. Like, even if you say no, like, don't just drop off. Don't just end it there. Make sure you kind of just follow up. What is the worst that could happen? Then them saying no, you know,

Brandon Waites 46:00
Yeah, yeah. And another thing I want to say real quick is that you don't just need to build those relationships with the big producers, the big directors and whatnot. Try to find out who their assistants are, who interns for them, and build those relationships, because most likely those guys are going to move up in Hollywood. And if you already have a friendship, you know, with, I don't know, the assistant to Steve Carroll. You know that person might be the next studio head or the next producer of Steve Carroll's, Steve Carroll's production company, I don't know. And it works. I mean, Dana Brunetti is a big producer in Hollywood. He's done House of Cards, he's done Captain Phillips. And one of my really good friends is his assistant, and I think now he's his creative executive for her company. So, I mean, you never know where those assistants interns are going to end up. A lot of people, you know, see the assistant, and they're like, Oh, you're just his assistant. They don't realize how much work these guys put in for these big a list producers, a list stars, directors, and they get noticed, and that gets them bigger jobs. So that's something else I would I would share.

Erman Baradi 47:17
Definitely, it's the sense are important. And everybody said it's too like everybody who's been to our panelists, just said, make sure you get well. You make sure you get on the radar, since they will come bigger in the future, and you're a technical gatekeepers to anything you do with their podcast. You send them an email if you're if you're not nice to them, they can literally block it. You know, also agents, managers and publicists getting along with them too, because they're the ones who are the team of these power players. So make sure you have a good standing relationship with them as well.

Dave Bullis 47:56
You know, somebody once told me a tip, and I want to get you guys, your guy's opinion, that was excellent English, by the way I'm talking and like, you guys opinion. So I want to get both of your opinions on this. Somebody once told me that if you want to get a screenplay to like, let's just say, a producer, a manager, an agent, that you should send it specifically to the assistant first. And what I mean by that is you actually address it to them and say, like, if I was like, let's just say, you know, Brandon, let's just say you were Armands assistant and, and, you know, you and I addressed it and you said you and I wrote in the email, or I wrote in the in, you know, whatever. And I said, you know, Mr. Weights, I think this would be an excellent project for your for your boss, you know, Mr. Ferrari, you know, could you know, if you read this, I really think blah, blah, maybe, maybe even write something in the subject line, just to get an open the email like, you know, this has been script recommended by one of the script the script reading services, and in the body you write, you directly, you make it right to them that way. You're it's it, and you are sincere about it that way. You're not just kind of like, you know, treating them like, sort of like a lackey, you know what I mean, and saying, like, hey, look, I just want to get to your boss. What do you think about that?

Brandon Waites 49:18
I think it's a good idea. Honestly. I think that you don't even have to mention, like, you know if, if I was her mom's assistant, and you're sending it to me, I don't even think you have to mention her mom by sending it to me, because you know that if it's good, I'm going to get it into her mind's armand's hands, and if I get it into his hands as his assistant, then I'm going to get recognized for finding the material so you could send it to me like dear Brandon. I wrote this amazing script that I think fits your guys's slate of films, and I would like for you to check it out and give me your feedback. And you never mentioned her mom's name. Well and I feel like, okay, I'm being recognized. I'm his assistant, and this person recognized me as part of the company. And, you know, I read the script and I love it, and I'm gonna reply back to you. You know what? I think this has some potential, and I'm going to take a turn on. And I think by doing that, you're right it, it develops a relationship with the assistant. It makes them feel important as well. You know, because, like Roman said, they are the gatekeepers. They are the guys who get the screenplays, they read the screenplays, and they're the ones that tell the their bosses whether they're good or not,

Erman Baradi 50:43
Yep, yep. In addition to that, 100% agree with Brandon. In addition to that, I would go with these as a tool, because if you go to the agent or manager, the first thing I'm gonna ask is, you know, how much are you offering? So because they could think of it from the from the business aspect, but if you hit up the assistant, yeah, what Brandon said, they may think, Okay, well, this script is fantastic. This is the assistant. I think this is my end this is my way of getting getting bigger in the industry. So, yeah, I think it's smart to hit the assistant's first. Actually, didn't think about that way until you mentioned it. And I was like, that makes sense. So, yeah, I do agree with you guys on that one.

Dave Bullis 51:27
So, and just, just to continue along with that too, query letters, you know, I mean, you guys have, you know, interned agencies. You guys have been around, always, producers and now, and you know, as you've, guys have progressed in your careers. How have queer do queries that are like query letters? Do they still work as as well as they used to? Like, if I were to email somebody, you know, first off, do they even work still? And two, if they do, like, what are some of the things that you've seen or heard or producers have said that I've actually gotten them to either open up the email or the assistance to open up the email rather. And actually, you know, I think that's the hardest part, because I think you see all these emails that are coming in. And, I mean, I mean, I remember talking to somebody at William Morris Endeavor, and he said that he usually, you know, 90% of the time he just without even opening he just clicks on the on the side panel there and just clicks, delete, delete, delete, delete, you know what I mean, and doesn't even open them.

Brandon Waites 52:23
Yeah, I think it depends on the how busy the company is. You know, there's smaller production companies that are very successful. I interned with benders pink at that time. It was called benders pink under JC, Spink and Chris bender. They're the producers of worthy Miller, The Hangover movies, a lot of comedies. They were also what Oscar nominated for a history of violence. So I think one of the important things is there's so many companies like that that are successful but not really known, and by researching them, seeing what type of genres they do, you can send those query letters, and if, if your screenplay matches their slate of films, I think they would be open to it, but you need to, you need to be able to ward your, you know, your query a certain way. It can't be a whole bunch of rambling, you know, it has to be short, sweet, and to the point when I interned there, they did go through query letters, but there had to be something within the meat of the email that interests them. You know, and vendor Spink was known for mostly comedies, like I said, if they got, I don't know, some drama that didn't fit their slate, they're not going to look at it. They're looking more for the stuff. They have a first look deal with New Line Cinema. So they're looking for films that new line wants. You know what I mean?

Erman Baradi 53:47
Yeah, yeah. And on that same note, yeah, try to be succinct as possible. Don't make it a long letter, because obviously no one has time to read that. You know, don't send an email. Don't send an email with a message of like, that's to take up, like, five to six paragraphs. They're not gonna have time for that. Absolutely don't. If you're saying query letter, don't touch a script already. That's a big no no. Like, like, the point of a query letter is to get the attention of it, of the person reading, not to already send your your material. So that's a huge no no. And I've it's happened to I've experienced that at Mosaic, you know, when I entered there people doing that as a writer, I've done that in past, too, my mistake, but, you know, I've grown from it. But yeah, and on the same notes for queer lawyers, I think they still do work, but you got to remember that people like WME, they only they're going to work with you if you already had credits, if you already have a name. So if you're brand new to the industry like you, try not to send letters to agencies of that stature. You know, CA, WME, Uta, aim for the smaller ones. Aim for the ones too, because they're the ones who are still looking for talents, new talents. So my advice is to go for the. Are the quote, unquote smaller level management companies and agencies, yeah?

Brandon Waites 55:06
Because once it gets into their hands, they're the guys that can take it up to those bigger studios management companies. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 55:15
And that kind of leads into my next question. You know, you guys started the film Empire, and, you know, there's, there's a writing contest, you know, that that's sort of, that, that's sort of, it's kind of the nucleus of the whole, of the whole thing. And somebody once also told me that these writing competitions are really what they look for, because they can see now if this writing piece can stand out against all these other writers, you know, and that way you're not sending, you know, emails to managers whoever, just saying, hey, read my screenplay, because they don't know if it sucks. I mean, let's be honest here, guys, there's probably a good chance it does suck. You know, I remember there was a, you know, I mean, there's a guy on Twitter called the bitter screenwriter, or the bit of screen reader, and he just, you know, he's seen so many of these scripts. He's just like, What the hell is going on here, you know, so, so, you know, that's why I think again, screaming competitions. I think that piece of advice is really good, just making sure you focus on the, on the writing competitions. But, you know, just to, just to go into that, you guys created the film Empire, and when you guys decided to form a partnership, you know what, what is, you know, the your screenwriting competition aspect, you know, what is, was there? Did you think that there was maybe a feel, that there was a need for, you know, a different kind of screen guarding competition, you know what I mean, like? So, what was kind of the impetus to create the the film Empire and the writing competition?

Brandon Waites 56:41
A lot of go ahead Erman,

Erman Baradi 56:45
Yeah, so being, you know, doing events and all stuff for people, that was one level of helping people network and break in, right, having a face to face, we wanted to take it up a notch and reach people on a global scale. So because events are very brick and mortar, right? So when you do contests, literally anyone from anywhere in the world can can win and take a meeting and take a Skype session with any of the mentors. So what we want to do was mentor meetings. So it's one thing to to win a contest and get cash, right? Awesome, cool. You got $1,500 awesome. You know, it pays your your rent for the month. That's fantastic. But we wanted to, what we wanted to do was have people already in the industry give feedback and mentor meetings to our winners, because it's more than just a meeting. It's about cultivating their talents, and our winners get to ask questions that they may not have a chance to otherwise. You know, for example, one of our mentors for our our very recent mentor contest is Tommy Harper, who was formerly a Bad Robot, Bad Robot, but he executive producer for like the Mission Possible films and Star Wars films, etc. So on a on a regular day, someone in London may not be able to meet him, right? But through our contest, we break down our wall, our winner gets a chance to have a Skype session or in person meeting, depending on where they're located with people like him, because it allows them to cultivate their their their talents, and, you know, ask questions that they would have no other chance of of doing so in any other situation. So we want to give, we want to provide a kind of a platform, if you will, for blossoming filmmakers and generators that could use the extra push or advice from people already working in the industry.

Brandon Waites 58:52
Yeah, and to pick and to piggyback off of what Roman is saying and something that I said earlier. By doing this, our winners are able to in their mentor meetings, they're able to develop the relationship, you know, instead of, you know, just bumping into them and saying, Hey, read my script. This is their opportunity to sit in front of them, build a relationship if they hit it off. Who knows, maybe the producer they're meeting loves the script that they won through our contest, and that producer now wants to produce their pilot or their their feature film, or maybe just slice their attitude and want to hire them for some position. So our contest mentor meetings is the opportunity to develop more intimate meetings, mentorships for our winners, not

Erman Baradi 59:44
Yeah, the first thing to the first thing to any of the first thing to any relationship, is getting in the room with somebody you know. So where Brett said, even if they don't get their script made per se from this producer or whoever they're meeting, they may have something else for them.

Brandon Waites 1:00:10
Yeah, yeah, and the meetings are the mentor meetings are important. That's the person's opportunity to provide a first impression. So we're all about developing relationships. That's how Arman and I both have started off and made our way to where we are now within Hollywood, we're still young, we still have long ways to go, but that's that's like the core of where we've got where we are, and we're trying to help other people that may have the screenplays that are really good, but don't have the opportunity to get in the room, and we're opening those doors for those people.

Dave Bullis 1:00:53
And I think that's, that's the crux of all this opening doors. You know what I mean? I think that's this whole business about relationships. Hell, life is about relationships. And I think opening doors is one of the flip parts of it, exactly so. So how can people enter the screwing competition by the way?

Erman Baradi 1:01:15
Yes, either the filmempire.com or you can find us on Film Freeway. On filmfreeway.com is the platform we use. I think a lot of festivals and contests use as well. But definitely check us out at the film empire. filmempire.com

Dave Bullis 1:01:33
And I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. Everybody you know but before we sort of kind of, before we get to the parting thoughts, I just want to ask one final question, Brandon and Erman, is there anything so, Brandon, I'll shoot you this, this, this question you first, is there anything that you'd like to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Brandon Waites 1:01:58
Um, no, I just really, and I know I keep stressing it. To get into the industry, you got to have thick skin. You have to be able to you got to be patient. One of our good buddies, Adam robitel. He's a director of The Taking of Deborah Logan and a new movie calling called Escape Room. I want to say, when we met him over at Blum house, also, he didn't insidious the last key. He told us that he'd been pushing for what, 1015, years, Armand, yeah, and he said, You have to have a lot of patience. And it's been about 15 years. I want to say that he's finally getting his opportunities doing Sony Movie. Now. He's pitching all over doors. I mean, the doors have have been open for him, but opportunities are just coming for him, and that's because he's, you know, he's pushed through the ups and downs of being in the industry. And there's gonna be lots of downs. There's gonna be days where, you know, you get an email from producer that says, you know, leave me the excuse me, I won't cuss leave me alone. Okay? Yeah, I mean, I've gotten some where producer be like, leave me the fuck alone. You know, don't message me again. It happens, and it's gonna feel like a punch to the stomach, and it sucks. But the tough the people who really want to be in the industry, they're just going to shrug that off and go on to the next producer, to the next director that they want to work with and try to get into their door and develop a relationship with those guys. So develop those relationships. Have a thick skin. No, it's not going to be easy. Just keep building relationships, and those relationships are going to grow upon each other. So those are probably my parting words.

Dave Bullis 1:03:44
Do you think it's wise, though? Like when if a producer would say that, like, leave me the fuck alone, like he I mean, because you could be the next big thing, and you could come back and say, Hey, you're the guy who told me to fuck off.

Brandon Waites 1:03:56
I'm hoping. I'm hoping. But no, I don't think us. Yeah, you know, I the producer that I talked to. I want to say he was more so co producer, or whatever, but, you know, I'm not really gonna take that to heart if I work with him someday, awesome. But I don't know maybe he was just having a bad day the day he told me that, but there's so many producers out there in Hollywood, a majority of them want to see other people succeed, people who are dedicated and want to be in this industry, and they're willing to talk to you. But I mean, in every industry, there's a jerk out there, and those jerks, you know, their karma will come. But, yeah, you just have to have that thick skin, because you are going to get some emails from some rude people sometimes, you know it's going to happen, so just have that thick skin.

Erman Baradi 1:04:56
Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, because just like a few months ago. Know, I emailed this agent, and it wasn't even about me. It was asked. I was inviting him his I'm not him. I was inviting his clients on a band of ours. And this guy should have said, Please take me off your list. I'm like, I I'm asking you about your clients. Don't you want that? Like, don't you want something for your client? You know, and people like that. She's like, Well, you gotta consider, even though it is small town and where it gets around a lot, he's just one person, he she's just one person, you know. So there's always other people to contact industry. So don't, don't like, you know, don't put yourself down if you get a no, because it's gonna happen a lot, so there's gonna be a lot of no's. But once you get that yes, that's what, that's what, that's what that's what's important, you know, you can get 100 no's and get that one yes, but that one yes is what's going to be the the significant, you know, answer that you'll get in your career. So yeah, going with Brandon said to have a thick skin, definitely, definitely keep networking and for I don't know if everyone knows this out there listening, but you know what we think we mentioned earlier, is not from LA. He's from Arizona. I just moved to LA last year, so I've been networking for five years. So with that being said, you can literally network from anywhere, you know. So with the with the invention of the internet, there's no excuse not to be able to reach out to somebody and create that rapport from the comfort of your own home. So even if you're not in LA, you can still network. You know, networking isn't about the four, the four, the four walls around you. It's about the the action of creating a relationship with somebody.

Brandon Waites 1:06:46
There you go, Gary V. The Gary V

Dave Bullis 1:06:54
Yeah, you know, I see the a lot of Gary V stuff. I actually got his latest book, and I took a few notes. And I, you know, I, I have a friend of mine who does a lot of social media stuff, and he swears by Gary V and everything he does. And I have another friend who does social media stuff, and he goes, Don't buy books on social media. He was just, just do it. So I don't know, you know, there's so much, so many tips on social media. And, you know? And I mean, Arman, you got 26,000 followers, so I'm pretty jealous,

Erman Baradi 1:07:25
Is has start somewhere. Had to start at a point of where I can grow that, you know, I like to tell people this, to get a million dollar dollars, you to start with $1 you know. So for me, 26 didn't come overnight. I had to grow that for the last five years, and I want to thank like you asked to do interviews, because if you were to Google me, you can find all the interviews. I can't sell out an event because I can't sell at an event without people being to find an interview. It was like, oh, it's full event. But wait a minute, I I don't can't find anything on you. Why would I buy tickets to your event? Or why would I even go to the film Empire if I can't find interview? Fire? No. So want to thank podcasts like you and any other press that I opportunities like this, because you're the reason why we get 26,000 you know, followers. So yeah, social media is very important. Definitely grow it. I guess, to go back on the other question about, you know, a parting words, but definitely, to me, is important nowadays. So definitely grow your social media when you can. And social media is a different monster, but also kind of the what Brandon said earlier, you constantly do some outreach. You know, you might find some cool people on on Twitter that you may not meet in person in any other given situation, so definitely hit them up, you know, contact them and kind of build that relationship over time.

Dave Bullis 1:08:50
Yeah, definitely. And I think social media is important, especially when you use it correctly. You actually are using it, and you're actually out there, you know, trying to network and meet people and, you know, just, you know, generally, whatever your goal is, you're trying to achieve with that goal. But, yeah, seriously, that's how we met. Man, just randomly, and I've met so many people on Twitter, and now I'm meeting more and more people on Instagram. This is just a side note, by the way, I don't know. Maybe you guys see this too. I see a lot of these. I shouldn't get into it. I'll say that, do it okay. So I would, I will give I will give it a peer pressure. So I see a lot of these models, let's say, and I saw this girl the other day. I followed her her Instagram, months and months ago, and I this picture came up, and it's her, like, bent over on a balcony wearing almost nothing. And obviously, because, you know, I'm a heterosexual guy, so it caught my eye. But here's the funny part. Okay, in the text of the post, there was all this text about, like, she's gonna knock somebody out. She's talking about, like, empowering herself. She's talking about this. I mean, it was like, it was so many points of topic she was going back and forth on, and none of them had anything to do with the photo that she was that she took of her bent over on this balcony. And I'm just like, What message are you trying to convey here? Like I'm lost. I don't know. I don't know what to feel about this post.

Erman Baradi 1:10:35
Dave, first advice. I don't appreciate you talking about my girlfriend like that.

Dave Bullis 1:10:40
Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Erman Baradi 1:10:44
No, you'll get a lot of those nowadays. You'll have like, a model take a picture of themselves in the bikini, and they, they try to have some type of inspirational quote underneath it. It's like, what like? You're gonna get a like? You're gonna get a like on the picture because of what you're wearing, not because of the quote underneath it, you know.

Dave Bullis 1:11:00
So, yeah, it's stuff like that. And I just don't know, you know, I kind of go back with, you know, in social media, and we could do a whole podcast about this, but they always say the Vern, the vrin, which is, you know, V R, I N, which is valuable, rare in a minimal and not non exchangeable, or not non, whatever, non substitutable. And you look at that, and I kind of, as I've kind of had that my mind now is looking through other people's social media, and I could see now why some people have taken off and other people haven't. And it's just, you know, a lot of times when I see those, those photos from from different, you know, models and stuff like that, with the inspirational quotes. I don't know. It's kind of like, I don't know, because everyone, because other models are doing the exact same thing where they're posting, you know, and they're posing in a certain way, and they're also posting an inspirational quote or whatever. So the rarity of that kind of goes down, by the way, I'm a huge Gary V guy. I've studied, you know, some of Tai Lopez's stuff, you know, back and forth about, you know, some of the social media stuff. So, so I could talk your ears off about this, but I won't, though, because you'll be all bored and be like, What the hell is this guy talking about? So I'll just be like, You know what I mean? Like, it's just sometimes with social media, I honestly think it's very easy to go down a rabbit hole with this stuff, and I will save all that for another time. Everybody So Brandon, where did we will find you out online?

Erman Baradi 1:12:35
Oh, geez, I think we lost him. Well, if we lost I can give you socials, yeah, I also agree, yeah. So you can find Brandon Waites at, B, W, A, I, T, E, S, 07 that is bwaites07 on Twitter and Instagram. You can find me at erman_la, E, R, M, A, N, _ LA on Twitter and Instagram, and you can find the film empire on Instagram, at the film empire and on Twitter at the_film_empire. You can also find us at mixology on both Twitter and Instagram, M, I, X, K, N, O, W, L, E, D, G, Y.

Dave Bullis 1:13:11
Armaan, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Brandon, I want to say thank you for coming on. I think we lost you. In fact, I know we did. I could see he's not in the room anymore. But I want to say thank you for both of you for coming on.

Erman Baradi 1:13:22
Thank you, sir. Until next time!

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BPS 474: The Legal Mistake That Can Destroy Your Film Career with Nellie Akalp

June 4, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a moment in every filmmaker’s journey when the dream begins to feel real. It’s no longer just an idea scribbled in a notebook or a late-night conversation with friends—it’s a production, a team, a budget, a risk. And yet, for all the attention given to cameras, scripts, and performances, there’s a quiet, often ignored foundation that determines whether that dream survives contact with reality: structure.

On today’s episode, we explore that unseen architecture with Nellie Akalp, an entrepreneur and legal expert who has spent decades helping businesses come into existence. What becomes immediately clear is that filmmaking, despite its creative soul, is deeply rooted in business decisions—decisions that many filmmakers delay, avoid, or misunderstand entirely.

Her journey into entrepreneurship didn’t begin with filmmaking, but the parallels are striking. Starting her first company in the early days of the internet, she experienced firsthand what it means to build something from nothing. That same principle applies to filmmakers. A film is not just a story—it’s an entity. A living, breathing structure that involves money, people, contracts, and liability. And without the proper framework, it can collapse before it ever reaches an audience.

One of the most eye-opening ideas from the conversation is deceptively simple: every film should be its own company.

“A movie… it’s like an entity of its own,” she explains, emphasizing that each project carries its own risks and responsibilities.

This isn’t just a technical detail—it’s a shift in mindset. When filmmakers treat a project casually, as something temporary or informal, they expose themselves to unnecessary risk. But when they treat it as a business, everything changes. Decisions become more deliberate. Protections are put in place. The project gains a kind of legitimacy that extends beyond the creative process.

This is where the concept of the LLC enters—not as a bureaucratic burden, but as a creative safeguard.

An LLC, as discussed in the episode, offers something filmmakers desperately need: separation. It creates a boundary between the project and the individual. If something goes wrong—financially, legally, or operationally—that boundary can mean the difference between a setback and a catastrophe. And in an industry where uncertainty is the norm, that kind of protection isn’t optional—it’s essential.

But what’s fascinating is how accessible this process has become. There’s a lingering belief that legal structures require expensive lawyers and complicated systems. Nellie dismantles that idea completely. Forming an LLC, maintaining it, even dissolving it after a project wraps—these are processes that can be handled efficiently with the right guidance. The real challenge isn’t complexity—it’s awareness.

And that’s where many filmmakers stumble.

They wait too long. They skip steps. They assume they’ll “figure it out later.” But later often comes with consequences—missed opportunities, legal headaches, or worse, financial exposure that could have been avoided with a few early decisions.

Another key insight from the conversation is the importance of compliance. Starting an LLC is only the beginning. Maintaining it—filing the right documents, managing changes, keeping everything aligned with state requirements—is what keeps the structure intact. It’s not glamorous work, but neither is editing at 3 a.m. or troubleshooting a broken shoot. It’s part of the craft, just on a different level.

And then there’s the broader lesson, one that extends beyond legalities into the philosophy of filmmaking itself.

Filmmakers often think of themselves purely as artists. But the reality is, the most successful ones understand they are also entrepreneurs. They build systems. They manage risk. They think strategically about how each project fits into a larger career. The LLC isn’t just a legal tool—it’s a symbol of that shift in identity.

To create is one thing. To sustain that creation over time—that’s something else entirely.

In the end, Nellie Akalp offers something invaluable: clarity. Not just about LLCs or business structures, but about the responsibility that comes with bringing a film into the world. Because every story deserves to be told—but it also deserves to be protected.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
But on today's episode, we have a guest who's not a filmmaker, but it's a person that helps with LLCs. I know a lot of people have been sort of, you know, messaging me and asking if I could get somebody who's more legal centric on just for an episode or two, just someone to talk about, like, the legalities of some things creating LLCs, how do you stay safe when you're making contracts? So this is actually gonna be a pretty good episode, because she, not only, you know, does all the work on that. But she also is an entrepreneur, a small business expert, a speaker, and the CEO of CorpNet.com, with guest, Nellie Akalp. Hey, Nellie, thank you very much for joining us on the show.

Nellie Akalp 2:31
Hi, Dave. Thank you for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:33
Oh, you know, it's my pleasure. You know, you know, Nellie, you are the CEO of CorpNet, and you know, I wanted to, you know, inquire more about your background, because I, you know, I see that you always have sort of had this entrepreneurial spirit. So I wanted to ask you, Nellie, how did you get started, you know, down the road to becoming the CEO of CorpNet?

Nellie Akalp 2:51
Well, I've been in the industry for over 15 years, and got into entrepreneurship back in 1997 right out of law school when we found our first company and have been in the same industry ever since we grew our first company and sold it back in 2005 to a publicly traded company, and then took some time off focus on my family and kids, and decided I was too young, too passionate, too motivated, to take on an early retirement. So I got back into the legal document filing industry in 2009 and started my company, CorpNet.com, so, you know,

Dave Bullis 3:35
Obviously, you know, the landscape of entrepreneurship has changed since, you know, you first started in and I did believe you said 96 so you know, what are some of the things you know, the you've actually seen that have happened recently that sort of have helped or maybe even hindered entrepreneurship?

Nellie Akalp 3:47
Well, I think we're in a different climate than what it was like back in 1997 in 1997 when I started our first company, my corporation, it was at the birth of the Internet age. So it was really easy to, you know, put up a website and immediately start seeing orders come through online, even without having any sort of a payment, get gateway, whereas in 2009 when I launched CorpNet, the landscape, the economic climate, everything had changed, and now we're in this new age of social media. So in my opinion, there's a lot of difference between how I ran my business back in the 1990s versus now, and I have never worked harder in my life than I do today.

Dave Bullis 4:43
You know, it's funny because, you know, that's what a lot I've heard from a lot of other entrepreneurs. Because, you know, they usually quit their day jobs to, you know, you know, follow their passion, follow their their own desires, to build their own company. And they always, usually say, you know, we end up working even more, but they usually enjoy it a lot more. Because it's working for their own company, if you know what I mean,

Nellie Akalp 5:02
Absolutely, I think the greatest thing about being an entrepreneur is just being able to shoot as high as you want and really do it within your own climate, within your own creative box, without having any limitations, and being able to spread your wings as far and loud and high as you'd like to reach them. And I think that was one of the biggest realizations for me after selling my first company, because when we first sold, really there wasn't any notion of us wanting to leave, but after the sale, it really lost its culture, its entrepreneurial spirit, for us, and we thought it's perfect time for us to take some time off and really focus on growing ourselves as individuals, as entrepreneurs, focusing on my marriage with my husband and business partner of over 19 years now, and really focusing on our children, and had another kid on the way. And you know what? What it made me realize is that I really love being my own boss, and I really don't enjoy corporate America, and really like to start from scratch, create something out of nothing, and really create that culture that I envision wanting to be a part of on a daily basis.

Dave Bullis 6:29
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people in America have become burned out on corporate America. I think they've really just gotten burned out on the inter office politics, you know, on some of the other practices in, you know, corporate America. And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of entrepreneurship now, of people sort of, you know, starting their own stores, like, you know, you mentioned you started near, you know, the.com boom. And when I look around today, I see a lot of businesses, you know, starting up. And, you know, there's not a brick and mortar store at all most of the time. You know, they're, a, sort of like an all, they're an online store. And then, if they're like a T Shirt Company, they then just farm it out to another company. And then, of course, they farm it out to another company that ships the the goods. So it's just, you know, I think this is we're going to that now where more people aren't going to have the traditional nine to five, it's going to be an entrepreneur job where, you know, you make your own business and you or even become a freelancer, you know, and you sort of start, and you sort of start getting your clients and building up from there.

Nellie Akalp 7:29
Yes, exactly. And frankly, I think in this day and age, it's really about the relationships and the reputation that you're creating out there, and you're setting out there for yourself, because to me, with this age that we're currently in, which is the social media digital era, it's really about that personal engagement and that client nurturing and cultivation, and the relationships that you build with the clients that's going to determine the success of your business in the long run.

Dave Bullis 8:06
That's very interesting as well, because, you know, as we're talking about entrepreneurship, you know, I actually, up until a few months ago, I actually worked full time at a college, and, you know, when we were actually talking about, you know, creating a new course all about business, you know, a lot of the professors were they there was nothing about this, about this new age, about digital and social media. And I, obviously, I said something about that, and we ended up not making the course. But it got me thinking, you know, I read a book a while ago about, you know, college and where it's at today. And this guy basically said he thinks that a lot of college degrees and a lot of people going out and gotten in the real world now, they don't have the necessary tools to succeed, rather than if you just fresh out of high school went right in doing what you want in entrepreneurship. You know, I kind of see his point. I mean, I don't know. Do you have a thought about that?

Nellie Akalp 9:03
Here's the thing is, I think, personally, in my opinion, I think anybody who wants to become a successful entrepreneur, and if they really want to go through entrepreneurship, you can straight out of high school go into it, but in my opinion, I think it's super important to have education under your belt and get a college degree. Why? Because I think all of those junctures in our lives are again, extra experience, and the courses that you're taking in college are geared towards somehow helping you becoming a better entrepreneur. For me, it has helped me a ton. I mean, I got my degree in business and marketing, and some of the classes that I took really help me in my daily operations of running and growing my business. I'm not saying that every class I took helped, but I think again, they're geared to be a tool and a resource to make you a better person in life and a better entrepreneur, if that's really the way you want to go, others may have a different outlook on it, and others may have a different opinion on it. You may have those people who really have that vision, passion and determination to really write out of high school. Want to start a business and again, by all means, but I think it's really important to always better yourself, and always, you know, improve yourself as a person and an entrepreneur, and if you choose not to go to college, then at least, you know, take some online courses to really, you know, strengthen your skills as as a business person, if that's the route you want to go,

Dave Bullis 11:12
Yeah, you know, there's a lot of online courses now, and I see it, you know, with the massive online open courses, you know, A course here on Udemy, on Skillshare, and I sometimes wonder, you know, if that's the future, if there would be, basically, you could just take what you want to take meaning, there would be, we would have to redefine what degrees are, but you know what I mean, like, so it wouldn't be you taking, like a traditional bachelor's degree, you know, course or curriculum you would have. You would take the courses that you were interested in, and they would either give you a certificate. What I've seen them do now is there's like a mini program at MIT, for instance, had their their micro Master's course, and basically it was like, you know, five or six online courses that you had to pass, and then you could, you would be getting this, what's called a Micro Masters, and it would be about a year's time, rather than the traditional, you know, two years for a master's degree. It's just, it's just an interesting, you know, time to be alive because of all these different changes. And, yeah, I always look to get different people's, you know, feedback about this, and we know what they're, you know, experiencing. And, you know, in the quote, unquote, real world.

Nellie Akalp 12:17
Well, here's, here's my take on it. I have four children, and two of them are teenagers, and obviously they see me on a daily basis in my work attire and just juggling and trying to balance life with work, and they see my successes, and obviously it's good enough reason for them to be all amped up and excited about, hey, I want to become successful like you, mom, and I want to go into business for myself. But the one thing that I always tell my kids is that, well, you know, success, it comes with experience, and my path for success was not only going and, you know, through high school getting good grades at listening to my teachers going and getting my four year college degree. But I also decided to go to law school, because for me, every you know, every ounce of education that I received, both through my college years and my graduate years, was again, experience underneath my belt, and this is from somebody who not only went to college and graduate school, but at the same time maintained the job through college and grad school, and every one of those experiences, in my opinion, has led and paved the way for me to be a better person, a better entrepreneur, and really has paved the way to my success today, because those were all experiences, and those interactions to me is what really led me to be who I am today. So I think the more you can expose yourself to tools and resources that can make you a better person, a more rounded person. By all means, go for it.

Dave Bullis 14:06
And you know, that's wanted to talk to you about, you know, is your successes, you know, because, you know, I see what you're doing at CorpNet, and it's just, you know, it's awesome. And you know, I wanted to sort of ask you now, you know, if we were going to, let's just say, you know, let's, let's just say, my friend and I just given an example, we're going to create a business. And, you know, we were going to come to something like, you know, comes, come to CorpNet, you know, what would you recommend? I mean, you know, should we, you know, you know. I mean, I know that's a very open ended question, so I should probably, probably, probably reword that. So, you know, let's just say we came and we wanted to ask you, you know, the question of LLC versus, like, s, Corp and stuff like that, you know, because, you know, with film projects, they're a little bit different than, say, some other entrepreneurships, because me, because, you know, a movie in itself is its own entity, yeah. So, you know, you know, you build upon that. So if I was going to come to you with like, a film project, you know. What were some of the things that you know, you would say, and you know, what would you recommend between an LLC or maybe even something different than an LLC? You know, I'm always interested to hear about.

Nellie Akalp 15:08
Let me back up for a minute and just give you a two second version of what Corp net does, and then I can provide you with the differences in the business structures and what we see and would recommend as a resource to your audience. Our company, CorpNet provides business filing services to startups, entrepreneurs, movie film producers, anybody who's looking to start a corporation or LLC or any other type of business filing, or they have an existing business and want us to help them maintain the business structure. We provide the services online in all 50 states. And really what makes us different from all the hundreds of 1000s of other competitors out there is our level of personal service and really the dedication we have to our clients from start to finish. So you can visit us online at www dot Corp net.com, we have live chat experts standing by at any time of the day, Monday through Fridays, from 6am until 5pm Pacific, Standard Time. But specifically, what makes us different is that we have a very, very large customer base of dealing with the entertainment industry and movie and film producers. So we probably have about 30% of our clients are in the film industry, and really we consider ourselves experts in the field of really guiding your audience as to what's necessary, what type of legal document filings are required, and to be able to assist them and guide them into getting what they need. So in answer to your question, really for an inter a person in the entertainment industry trying to set up a business structure for their movie or film. You can go either way, LLC or S corporation, because, as you mentioned, it Dave a movie, it's like an entity of its own. So one of the things that we recommend, because we deal with a ton of producers is that they come with several different movies. Well, each movie should have its own entity. And as far as it being an LLC or an S corporation, it really, really depends on the level of formality that you want to deal with. As far as that particular movie with the S corporation, there's stricter requirements as to who can qualify, whereas with an LLC, it's a much more lax type of entity. Anybody can be a member of an LLC, and it's much less formal as far as the filing requirements that are required to bring the LLC into existence. In addition it, the only piece of document that really controls the LLC is the operating agreement. So if you are trying to set up a movie and the people backing the movie Up, some are in state, some are out of state. The LLC may be the better way to go, because there are no requirements with the LLC that bar and out of state or to be a member of the LLC. But as far as the protection, as to which one will afford you greater liability protection, etc, both the S corp and the LLC offer liability protection. They both offer the the double taxation avoidance, whereby you would otherwise have to pay by forming a C corporation. So it really depends on, again, the level of formality that you want to deal with, whether all the shareholders or members of that particular film are, you know, residents of the US, are citizens of the US. If they are, then S corporation is a great way to go. Otherwise, the LLC is a great type of entity and the most favored within and amongst the film industry and the entertainment industry,

Dave Bullis 19:27
You know, because my experience, you know, with LLCs came when we had to start buying insurance because, you know, because when, when, when I was doing, you know, student films, you know, you know, most student films are just, you know, run and gun. They really don't have, you know, the doing it, you know, the proper way. But when I started, you know, getting into buying insurance, because we started doing, you know, riskier stuff, you know, whether you want to, you know, blow up a car or whatever the LLC, and then you you know, I would get the insurance, and then I could, you know, go from there. And, you know, that's was, you know, couple years ago, when I actually the last time I actually produced something, that's what we did. We actually went the LLC route.

Nellie Akalp 20:12
Yes, LLCs are really, really the favorite type of entity these days. Again, as I mentioned to you, it's great for a small business, and literally, anyone can be a member of an LLC. It's very, very informal. I refer to the LLC as the entity where you can have your cake and eat it too, because not only it provides you with all the liability and asset protection that you want in creating a business structure, but with limited formalities, with minimal formalities, so we can take care of it for you. It's offered in all 50 states, and again, we can take care of filing the LLC for you in any of the 50 states, and all of the paperwork required to keep the LLC in compliance throughout the years the LLC is in existence.

Dave Bullis 21:10
So, you know, Nellie, I wanted to ask, you know, if a filmmaker listening to this, you know, wanted to come to you about starting an LLC, is there anything they need to do beforehand, before coming to you to start the LLC.

Nellie Akalp 21:22
Actually, not really. I mean, typically, speaking for a film producer, we normally use the name of the movie as the name of the LLC, unless they have another, you know, particular name that they'd like to use, such as their holding company, etc. But really what we need before they come to us is just the name, the members of the people that are going to be as part of the LLC, the business address, and then we take care of the rest. I mean, really, we take the hassle out of the movie producer, doing all the legwork and bringing the LLC into existence, and then we become your partner throughout the lifetime of the LLC, and helping you keep the LLC in compliance.

Dave Bullis 22:06
So what are some of the things you know, like the LLC, you know, I've been in my experience with LLC, some of the things, like a tax ID number usually comes up. So, you know, what are the some of the things that about being in compliance? You know, that should, you know? You know, we concerned about to for the LLC to be in compliance.

Nellie Akalp 22:22
So with our company, CorpNet, we offer three different packages. And normally, what I would recommend to any movie film producer or somebody in the entertainment industry is our deluxe or all inclusive, complete package whereby one, you know, not only we take care of handling the name check, we submit the paperwork to the state for filing for the LLC. Once the LLC is filed, we actually obtain and assign the tax ID number to the LLC, which is really the social security number for the LLC, that particular LLC, where the IRS can identify all the transactions associated with that particular LLC, and then once the tax ID is signed and we have all the paperwork, including the operating agreement all drafted, we forward all the documentation to the particular client for that LLC, whereby It allows them to go open up the bank account and then start conducting business under the LLC, and then within a year or two, after depending on the state requirements, we can file all the Statement of Information, annual report filings, all the compliance filings that are due for that LLC within their state, in addition to, for example, if the general principle of the LLC likes to make any modifications to the LLC, add members, delete members, we can help them throughout the lifetime of the LLC with all those needs as well.

Dave Bullis 23:58
You know, that's something that you know, I've learned that you need on a film project is either so you know, somebody who knows the legalities of things. Because, you know, when you get stuff like the tax ID number, and you start getting, you know, into into sort of, like, you know, lots of legal documents, I've realized that you do need to have somebody who you can turn to and be like, what does this mean?

Nellie Akalp 24:16
Exactly, yes. And here's the great thing about our business, Dave, is that we assign you your own business filings expert, your own dedicated account rep, and we deal with a ton of high end movie producers who will call here. And, for example, deal with our senior filings expert, Amanda Barron, who is literally has been with the company since day one, is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to forming corporations and LLCs in all 50 states. But she's also our specialist in dealing with people who are within the entertainment industry. Street, and who'd like to form corporations or LLCs for their movies. So we will assign you not only to an expert, but an expert that has expertise in your field.

Dave Bullis 25:14
So, you know, Nellie I wanted to ask, you know, we were talking about entrepreneurship, you know. And I always wonder, you know, where crowdfunding sort of comes into this. Because, you know, with the equity based crowdfunding coming into law, you know, I always wonder, you know, where that would fall within the LLC, because now, you know, with people being able to sort of buy into the project, I wonder if does that add, you know, another dimension or two to your LLC.

Nellie Akalp 25:38
I mean, we deal with all sectors, all verticals. And really, we're here to service any type of clients filing needs that they require. So you know, in my opinion, whoever needs assistance with setting up a corporation or an LLC in whatever business vertical or sector they are, we can assist them.

Dave Bullis 26:00
That's good to know, because, you know, like I was saying before, you know, with, you know, having somebody in your corner, because I've been down that road before, too, and it's just, you know, I've never done equity based crowdfunding. So I was doing crowdfunding, it wasn't around. But, you know, even when you're doing perk crowdfunding, you know, I had a producer on there going, is this legal? Should we get a lawyer on here? And I said, no, no. I said, you know, it's through their own website, you know, and they explained, in their terms and agreements, you know, what is entailed with this crowdfunding campaign. It's perk based, you know, etc, etc. But, you know, I just wanted to ask because, you know, with with that becoming no be rolling out more and more, I just wanted to ask if that would, you know, entail something completely different on top of the LLC, no, not at all.

Nellie Akalp 26:39
And in fact, one of the notions and the lack of awareness out there that I wanted to address, which you just brought up, Dave, is the fact that there's still this lack of awareness that a corporation or LLC can be done on your own through a reputable on online company, such as the services we provide here at Corp net, and most often, people think that they do have to go to an attorney or an accountant to get these filings done. Again, remember, this company and our other companies was found by attorney, husband and wife team, so we've been through law school. We are within the industry. My husband is admitted to the California State Bar, and frankly, you do not need a lawyer to form a corporation or LLC and merely act as a Scribner to file documents with the state. You can take care of these filings and more with the help of a company such as ours for literally 1/10 an iota of the price, and really save that money that you would otherwise pay to a legal professional, and really use it when it comes handy, when you actually need the assistance of a lawyer. So we're very capable, and consider ourselves experts in the field, and can handle all these filings and more in all 50 states.

Dave Bullis 28:01
So you know, Nellie, that's good point you just brought up, and I wanted to ask, you know, when it does come to time to dissolve the LLC, like, if it was a film project, you know, we've shot it, you know, we've, we've, no it's in post production. It's being distributed, you know, and it's there, you know, this comes up point in time when you have to dissolve that LLC, you know, is that a complicated process?

Nellie Akalp 28:16
Not at all. In fact, again, we handled the solutions in all 50 states, and we can help you in dissolving the LLC at the end of the film project. It's just merely a document that needs to be filed within the state. And obviously, every state has different requirements. Some dissolutions are much more tedious and require much more filings than others. But again, we handle dissolution paperwork in all 50 states, and can help you in dissolving the LLC as well.

Dave Bullis 28:50
So now you know, now we know we've talked a lot about LLCs and, you know, and making companies everything like that. Is there any sort of challenges you see, you know, in your daily or weekly you know, business from from entrepreneurs or filmmakers. Is there any sort of mistake that you see a lot of that? Is it almost like a common mistake that you see that people make?

Nellie Akalp 29:08
I think oftentimes the most common mistakes that we see is, again, the filmmaker, the entrepreneur, not having the due diligence or the information necessary, paying tons of money where they otherwise they could have saved the money and come to a company such as ours to you know, form, the legal paperwork for them, oftentimes not having the correct information and filing the LLC in a state other than the state where the movie is being shot and not that, not doing their due diligence and making sure the name is available before forming the LLC, and then after the LLC is formed, not having the proper information to keep the LLC in compliance. So these are all mistakes that we've dealt with and oftentimes have to have fixed. So again, it could all be saved by having a reputable company take care of these filings for you and just calling us and having us do a free business consultation over the phone with you, or taking advantage of our live chat feature.

Dave Bullis 30:27
So, you know, Neil, you brought up a funny, you know, brought up something, and it reminds me of a funny story that happened to me. You know, I have a friend of mine who's an attorney on my, you know, on my Facebook friends list, and when I started my production company, she actually sent me an email telling me that it was, it was a bad idea. I mean, it was called Iron Fist films, my production company, and she thought it was too close to the Marvel superhero Iron Fist. And I said, But, but my Iron Fist is based off of Iron Fist training from Shaolin Kung Fu. That's, you know, 3000 years old, you know. I, you know. And I was trying to go back and forth with her about this. But, I mean, have you seen something like similar like that happen, where maybe a trademark was a little too close to home.

Nellie Akalp 31:04
Absolutely, we deal with that on a daily basis, because as part of our products and services, we offer trademark registration, search and filing services, and oftentimes people, as I mentioned to you, do not take the time to check on that name to make sure it's available before they start the business. And they don't take an additional they don't take the additional necessary steps to do a further research of the name to see whether anybody has common law rights to that name, whether that name has a potential trademark right to it. And again, we can help and assist, because we have all those tools on our website, such as the free name search, the free trademark search, that can provide you with the necessary information so that you are prevented on being on the wrong end of a trademark infringement suit, potentially,

Dave Bullis 32:01
You know, no another funny story. It's involves a friend of mine. He actually was a private investigator and lawyers, trademark lawyers were actually hide or hire him out to go and investigate some different trademarks. And he actually had one one time. These four guys started a company. They just started, you know, opened up a actual physical store, and the name of the store was called Apple. And literally, they did, I don't think they made an LLC, but they just started to come, you know, the business called Apple. They had a they had a logo outside their their logo also was, was, you know, a green apple. And when he went in there to talk to him about it, they actually were, like, dumb. They were pretending they were dumbfounded. Like, we don't know anything about this other Apple. What are you talking about? Needless to say, they actually decided to shut it down. When, finally, when the trademark lawyers were like, look, we're going to sue you if you don't stop.

Nellie Akalp 32:51
Yes, that will happen. And again, you can save yourself a ton of headache and time if you just go about and do your due diligence before you start printing out business cards and letterheads and start using that name in commerce.

Dave Bullis 33:07
Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I concur, you know, that's when I used iron fist. I actually went through and I actually made sure it wasn't going to be a problem. But I know that, you know, when her and I were talking my attorney friend and I she, you know, brought that up just because she thought it was, you know, too close. But again, mine is based off something completely different, you know, that's a couple 1000 years old, so I don't really know if anybody could actually trademark that, although, you know, I hear Budweiser is changing the name of their beer to America, yeah,

Nellie Akalp 33:37
I heard that too.

Dave Bullis 33:38
I don't know how he would be able to trademark America, but

Nellie Akalp 33:43
That would be considered a generic term. So it's not trademarkable unless they do Budweiser slash America or something like that. I'm sure they have a great team of legal experts working on that as we speak,

Dave Bullis 33:59
You know, Nellie we've been talking for about, you know, 30 minutes. You know, I wanted to ask, you know, is there anything that we sort of haven't discussed yet, or anything you wanted to maybe mention that we didn't get a chance to?

Nellie Akalp 34:08
Actually, I think we've covered it all. And again, we'd love to assist any one of your audiences with any of their business filing needs, or helping them set up a corporation or LLC in all 50 states. You can visit us [email protected] if you have any questions, feel free to email us to [email protected] or just pick up the phone call, 1-888-449-2638, you can follow me on Twitter at CorpNet, Nellie, or follow the company at Twitter, at CorpNet, and then we're also on live chat Monday through Fridays, from 6am until 5pm Pacific, Standard Time,

Dave Bullis 34:53
And that's awesome. And everyone I will link to everything, all the links Nellie just said in the show notes as well. You know Nelly. I want to say thank you very much for coming on. Thanks. And you know my pleasure. And you know I want to wish you the best of luck with everything, with CorpNet, and you know for helping all the future entrepreneurs.

Nellie Akalp 35:08
Thank you so much. And thank you for the opportunity, Dave.

Dave Bullis 35:11
Oh, my pleasure. Take care Nellie.

Nellie Akalp 35:12
Take care.

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BPS 473: Why Moving to L.A Might Ruin Your Film Career with Will Ball

May 28, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a myth that quietly follows almost every filmmaker and actor at some point in their journey—the idea that success lives in Los Angeles. That somehow, if you just make the move, everything will begin to fall into place. On today’s episode, we sit down with Will Ball, a talent agent who has worked on both coasts, to dismantle that illusion and replace it with something far more useful: reality.

Will’s path into the industry didn’t begin with certainty. Like many creatives, he started in film school, only to realize that the traditional route wasn’t necessarily the most effective one. Instead of continuing blindly, he stepped away, explored acting, and eventually found his way into agency work through an internship. That pivot became the foundation for everything that followed. It’s a reminder that careers in this industry rarely move in straight lines—they evolve through experimentation, adjustment, and a willingness to shift direction when something isn’t working.

One of the most important takeaways from the conversation is how misunderstood the concept of “breaking into the industry” really is. For many, that means moving to Los Angeles. But as Will explains, LA is not a place where you go to find opportunity—it’s where you go once you already have momentum. The market is saturated with talent. Actors, models, writers, filmmakers—everyone is competing at the highest level, often without realizing how difficult it is to stand out.

What makes this especially challenging is that talent alone isn’t enough.

“There are people out there more talented than major stars who will never make it simply because they weren’t at the right place at the right time,” he explains.

That idea cuts against everything people want to believe, but it reflects how the industry actually works. Timing, access, and positioning often matter just as much as skill. And when thousands of equally talented individuals are competing for the same roles, the margin for success becomes incredibly thin.

This is where Will offers a more strategic perspective—one that many filmmakers overlook. Instead of rushing into the most competitive market, build your career where you are. Smaller markets offer something that LA doesn’t: visibility. When you’re one of fewer creators in a local scene, it’s easier to build relationships, get work, and develop a reputation. That momentum becomes leverage.

Because if you can’t succeed in a smaller market, you won’t suddenly succeed in a bigger one.

That principle applies directly to filmmaking and screenwriting. Too many creators focus on the end goal—getting discovered, landing a deal, breaking into Hollywood—without building the foundation first. The truth is, no one is waiting to hand out opportunities. You have to create them. Whether it’s starting a project, forming a writers group, or producing your own work, progress comes from action, not permission.

Will reinforces this idea through his own transition into building a talent agency. Instead of waiting for the perfect opportunity, he chose to create one. He spent months learning the business side—everything from legal structures to branding—because being good at a craft doesn’t automatically make you good at running a business. That distinction is critical in today’s industry, where creators are increasingly responsible for managing their own careers.

Another key insight from the conversation is how to evaluate opportunities—especially when it comes to representation. Many aspiring actors and filmmakers fall into traps by paying upfront fees or signing restrictive contracts with questionable agencies. Will is clear on this: legitimate representation only makes money when you make money. Anything else should raise immediate red flags. It’s a simple principle, but one that can save years of frustration.

There’s also a deeper theme running through the conversation about motivation. Many people enter this industry chasing fame, validation, or the idea of success rather than the work itself. And those are often the first to burn out. Because when rejection comes—and it always does—there’s nothing holding them in place. The ones who last are the ones who genuinely enjoy the process of creating, improving, and building something over time.

In the end, Will Ball offers a perspective that feels grounded, practical, and necessary. The film industry is not just about creativity—it’s about strategy, resilience, and understanding where you actually fit within the landscape. Success doesn’t come from chasing a location or a title. It comes from building something real, wherever you are, and letting that growth carry you forward.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:07
This guy is an agent for some of the biggest talent agencies on the East Coast. He's worked with all of them. He just returned from a one year trek out to LA where he worked with more of the top agencies out there. This guy has been through it all, awesome guy, a lot of knowledge. He's now returned to Philly. He's starting his own agency here called the vibe model and talent agency. We're gonna talk all about that and so much more, also about finding representation, which is a huge question I get asked a lot about, is finding representation. So I imagine this episode, and the one with Whitney Davis, is going to be pretty popular, as Whitney's episode is very popular. So without further ado, with guest Will Ball.

Dave Bullis 1:07
This is from seasons, yeah, free seasons pizza. Who would have funk it, right? So, you know, it's funny, because I was going to order Chinese or pizza, and I was like, no, let me, let me turn some cheesesteaks. Let me just see how. Because, again, you're right. We're in Philadelphia, and if you don't actually have a good cheesesteak, you get beaten savagely out in the parking lot. Yeah, seriously, but you know, you know, it's funny having you on the show will because, again, I had crispy on Two episodes ago. This is episode 152 Yeah, and real

Will Ball 3:08
Quick, yeah. Someone like, I hear correctly because I was listening to the crispy podcast one of your guests, like, murdered somebody.

Dave Bullis 3:17
Oh, it was Dan Mirvish, and the guy he was taught filmmaking by at USC, he murdered his family.

Will Ball 3:25
Okay, okay, so it wasn't an actual because it was at the beginning. And I was, I was kind of doing some of the same time, so I wasn't like, I was like, 80% listing, yeah, and I just heard, I was like, Wait, both his guests, damn.

Dave Bullis 3:38
It's Confessions of a serial killer

Will Ball 3:40
Deliver his manifesto.

Dave Bullis 3:46
The police are just out here beating the crap out of me because, but no, he's teacher. Basically. What happened was a concise story of this was his name was crazy, Aziz, and they called him that because he was kind of, like, always outlandish and deserve, you know. Yeah, what happened was one day they called him in the office, and he they said, there's a camera missing, and we didn't know who took it. And he said, I don't know. He got fired from from that from USC, okay, his wife then announced she was leaving him, and it kind of snapped, and he killed them both, and then drove away and shot himself in the head. But they but they didn't know he was dead yet, because he just vanished. So they had USC on lockdown. They so they basically, yeah, they had to, you know, basically everyone was scared to death because they're like, is he gonna come? Because he apparently had vendettas against certain people. So they were like, oh shit, huh, so, but yeah, no, no. Serial killers left about Yeah!

Will Ball 4:39
Well, I see, let's see what happens after this. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 4:40
Seriously, crispy. Who knows he could be crazy, because he's not the guys like me, because it's always the guys who are like, he's so nice and sweet.

Will Ball 4:49
If you're on the news, you're like, I would have never thought it was him, that guy.

Dave Bullis 4:54
Yeah, and just be like, crispy did out of nowhere. I. Fair enough. Fair enough. Oh yeah, no, no problem. It's good to talk about that. And that's, that's episode 149, damn average, right before crispy. And so what happened was, you know, we've actually known each other since, what middle school, I'd say. So yeah, about that? Okay, because I don't remember how I met crispy. Do you remember how we met? Because I because crispy thinks that we met at lunch one day. And I said, crispy, that's such a weird way to meet somebody at lunch, like,

Will Ball 5:27
Especially in middle school.

Dave Bullis 5:29
How do you do that?

Will Ball 5:30
Yeah, no, I'm that's confusing, I to be honest with I don't remember. I know you were a great above me. So there's always that kind of like distance that people have. I mean, it's like, yeah, you're in the same school, but like, you're just, like, years apart, because even though it was just one, but, yeah, no, I really don't remember. I just, I think it's just gonna game to be. And then I think in college, we had reconnected, because you had reached out to me about a film or something like that. And then then we just kind of got more involved from there.

Dave Bullis 5:59
Yeah, I do remember that. I remember that because I also remember, yeah, I was trying to think of this stuff too, because I'm like, Damn, it's been so I mean, what do you graduate to high school about 50 years ago? About that? We're about 70 years old now, it feels like it, and now I'm just like, how do I know these guys? Yeah, because, but you never know that. Like I certain friends, I know, I know exactly where I met them at other people. I'm just like,

Will Ball 5:59
I do remember where I met crispy, though, which we crispy tell it about, actually at a party, like a mutual friend's party. And I think we're just playing, we're playing some DOS game on the computer. And, oh yeah, there was no really. I mean, that's it really wasn't that

Dave Bullis 5:59
Prank them or something.

Will Ball 5:59
No, wasn't that that exciting, but, yeah, using then after that, I was like, Hey, will you want to be my films then, which obviously I was happy to do, and still am, but, uh, yeah, like, that's, sorry, nowhere.

Dave Bullis 5:59
Well, well, that's, that's a sign of what's gonna happen with the podcast.

Will Ball 5:59
You got another 15 minutes of stories which go nowhere.

Dave Bullis 5:59
Now everyone's gonna stop right now. Just be like, Oh well, this is the end of this podcast. Oh, man, it's, you know, just crazy, though, because, you know, so when you were making all those films of crispy, why did he? Did he select you because of your look, or because you guys were friends, because you knew something about filmmaking,

Will Ball 6:18
I think we were friends. Okay, yeah, that was first and foremost. And then I think, you know, he was trying to make a more spiritual film. And at the time, I was, you know, more into that. Obviously, I'm not now, but, you know, at the time, but yeah, and I, you know, and it was just happy to do it. I mean, just happy to do it. I mean, this is, like, you know, I really want to be involved in film at any capacity, and I was wanted to explore more acting. So, you know, the fact that there's someone in my backyard who was shooting a film was, you know, it's awesome. Like, I was so super happy to do it. And, yeah, and got to pretend make out with people. So, like, all right, even better,

Dave Bullis 7:57
Really, oh, wow. So, because I know, I know crispy was, like, put a lot of friends that he asked me to be in one okay, and I think it was, it was one of them, and he and he kept, like, canceling on me at the last minute. And I kept, like, it wasn't four times I said, Chris. I said, You're a nice, tough guy. But I said, I can't just put any more time into this. So I just kind of, that's where crispy and I stopped talking for like, a year, not because we're mad at each other, but just because, you know, we were just, yeah, exactly, just doing different things, you know, and then we reconnected, and I ran into one day at the gym, and yeah, at the gym, yeah, we were in the shower room together. No, at the gym, I actually used to be in shape. And I'm dead serious about that. I actually used to be in shape. And then crispy, I think was getting back into shape at that time. This is when we were in our 60s, like you're the gym.

Will Ball 8:49
I was just surprised. Never, I've never crispy at the gym. Not crispy. No offense to say, I just didn't, wouldn't picture him as a gym rat.

Dave Bullis 8:57
Do you know who Crispy's? Old gym Buddy was no, no. Kevin Coleman,

Will Ball 9:03
Oh, gee, Coleman. And I mean, I actually just saw Coleman the other day, and I know it's just not interesting to any it was like it was Coleman. He's actually living with my old roommate right now. Samarra, no, no, with, with Matt can cannon, with, with it, with Matty mooch, oh, I live in the media. He's in media with them and and Matt is just, he's like, he's died. The stories he tells about Coleman, like he cracks himself up, and it cracks everyone else stuff like, it's Coleman. I guess there's like two coma there's like silver Coleman and drunk Coleman. And it's a very two different people, and very, so very, very nice people. I had nothing bad to say about Coleman. He's a great guy. Just very, very funny.

Dave Bullis 9:45
Did I just say about the time I had to almost choke Coleman out in the middle of a bar on Christmas Eve? True story. Hey, Coleman. We were which bar Dexter's that used to be up here on the five in lovely Aston, Pennsylvania. So what happened was Coleman was drunk one Christmas Eve in a bar, and he won Christmas Eve. It was a snow who knows? Actually Christmas Eve, and he actually started picking a fight with a friend of mine because he thought my friend was kept egging him on. My friend didn't even say anything, and Coleman just went ballistic. So I just went in between them. I was like, Coleman just calmed down, and he just went ballistic. And I was like, and he started trying to grab me, and I'm like, oh shit, I pushed him. I mean, I'm a lot bigger than Coleman is, so I just, like, chucked it with the woman against the wall, and we and I hit another person on the way back. So three of us in the wall, and then I just kind of like, put my elbow, or my forearm into his into his neck, and I got my hand on the back of his head. And I was kind of like, doing this, yeah. And I was like, Coleman, Calm the fuck down. And he just was getting angry and angry. I'm like, now I have to put more and more pressure on him. So finally he starts like, he can't breathe, so I'm starting to like, he's starting to go down, and we get him out the door. I the door. I didn't choke him out or anything, but I said,

Will Ball 11:04
Like, forcefully, like, hey, we need to get out here.

Dave Bullis 11:07
Yeah, I was a calm so I'm not gonna let him go if he's not gonna be calm. And we got him outside, and he's just like, Oh, I'm sucking ass. I'm like, Jesus, how much has this kid had to Drake, Sweet Lord God. And, I mean, oh my God, but yeah, but finally, he ended up giving the credit card to somebody else. They came in and paid for all his stuff. The owner of the bar wanted to call the cops. And I'm like, and I'm like, I'm like, Well, I he knew me. So he goes, so what happened? And somebody out here fighting? Well, I said, Yeah. I said he was just calling that kid. He goes, All right. Well, I say he's out of here. I said, you know, we're sorry about everything. So he goes, All right. Well, you know, I won't do any coma cops or anything.

Will Ball 11:47
So, can I speak of a bar fights. Can I tell a crazy la story? Go for it, man. Many so. So when I was in LA, it was like the week I had moved to LA, a friend of mine was like, hey, well, let's go to this Armenian bar in north, north Hollywood. So I'm like, All right, yeah, why not? Let's go. So pretty sure. It started off at like, the bar elsewhere, and then it was like, Hey, this is Armenian bar down the street. Let's, you know, stumble in, what have you. So we're there and, and there's this too. This is short Armenian dude, and it's really tall Armenian chick, and they're talking to each other, and they like, just, like, ran into each other, and they're kind of ribbing each other, like, joking around. And they're starting to like, hey, like, you're so tall, you're so short, you're, you know, making comedy act. I'm just sitting here drinking, just looking at what's going on, and you can see it like, it's starting to just, like, get meaner. Like, the like, the it crossed the line from like, being just friendly and joking to just like it, like really kind of insulting, and they start to, like, get really, like, mean jabs at each other. Like, crispy and Matt Kelly, exactly. Yeah. So, so clearly. So then the smaller Armenian guy, he says something that, like, crosses a line, and she talks to lugi and spits on him, and we're like, Oh, damn.

Dave Bullis 13:09
Like, and she had to spit down,

Will Ball 13:11
Yeah, yeah, I had to spit down, right? Like, walks away, right? And like, oh shit. Like, whatever. So, like, everyone's drinking, and it's coming around, like, two o'clock in the morning, so the bar is about to close. Well, he just got this look on his face. He goes back up to that Armenian chick and spits in her face all of a sudden, like, there's like, Armenian, like, bar fight. It's breaking out. And the bounce is just like, What the fuck? And my friend, she was very much like, oh, you dare Don't spit in like, a woman's face. And the bouncer was like, about to, like, beat the shit out of this guy. And I'm like, Yo, dude, listen, I want to tell you something. Like, I I don't believe that you should spit in anyone's face, you know, man or male or female, but like, she's spitting his face first. And I'm not saying, like, what he should have spit back, but I'm just saying it wasn't just, like, out of the blue, like, like, he just talked to Luke in some chicks face, like, and he was like, okay, cool, cool. I'll just let it kind of like, let's just kick him out of the bar, and that'll be it. I won't beat anyone's ass. So I'm like, well, anyone's ass. So I'm like, Oh damn. And that was like,

Dave Bullis 14:05
No, welcome to LA. Jesus, man, we'll ball stop and bar fights.

Will Ball 14:09
Oh no, I just stopped popcorn.

Dave Bullis 14:13
So I want to talk about you going to LA, but I just want to go back. No, no. It's probably because I want to actually ask. You know, right out of high school, you went to college, how did you end up getting into this whole agency field, man? Because I, you know, I just it seems like harder to me to get into that, because it's very niche. So I want to ask you, how did you find yourself actually, as an agent for all these, you know, actresses and models and stuff like that.

Will Ball 14:38
So when I was in college, I went to school for a film, and in my first few years of film, I just, I don't know, or years of college, I just knew that I didn't really want to be there, or I wasn't quite sure why I was there. And I had heard someone else talk about having similar feelings, and they suggested take a semester off, just do what you want to do, like if you want to do something else. And at the time, I really wanted to be an actor, and I really. Really wanted to explore the acting industry, like, just, just, just take it off. Still this to this day, I will give the same advice to anyone who's, like, in college and not liking it, or just not feeling it, just walk away and come back. Like I was able to. I took a semester off. I pursued acting. I was able I got, like, in a commercial, I got, like, some small print ads, things like that. And it's great. I, like, learned a lot, and then at that six months, and then afterwards, I thought, you know, Okay, it's time for me to go back to school. I was ready to go back to school, but I went instead of for broadcasting and communications, and it's a little more viable. I mean, the thing about film school is you really don't have to go to film school in order to make film. Like, honestly, I would recommend, instead of take that tuition money and invest in just equipment and books and your own film and, like, save yourself any you want to have loans that way. Seriously, man, it doesn't make sense to go to film school for film. And I kind of saw that as in the class. Like, wait, I'm in the class with just, like, 30 people, and this is just one class. Like, we're not all going to be successful. Like, and there's only so few jobs here. Like, best I can hope is to be a PA. So, like, I gotta find a way to, you know, be realistic. Yeah, I'm not saying don't pursue your genes, but like, You got to be realistic, yeah, degree. So, so then I went back to college and an internship. And I took an internship at an agency here in Philadelphia, and and it was called expressions, and the wonderful rear Lang, she's an agent. She's older now, but she's been an agent in Philly for, God, decades, and learned everything. I learned a lot from her, and she's really good. And then she generates most people that just loves being an agent and just it is what she does. Like she's this older woman. She gets on the train every day and rides the subway to work, like, you know, she's so dedicated and loves what she does so really, kind of fell in love there and just got really, really like being behind the camera as much as I did in front of the camera. Because it's very much like the best part of my job is sharing in my talent success. You know, I love calling up talent and being like, Hey, listen, like you just booked this job, and they're just ecstatic, and they're just beyond, you know, happy. And it's just for me. I don't know, I really like that feeling, and I really it's just, it's what drives me to do this job. It's the best part of my job, for sure. And so then after that, then I got picked up by another agency who was opening up in Philadelphia, and worked there for five years, got to know, really, the client base here and in Philly, even more. And then after that, that's when I went out to LA

Dave Bullis 17:19
And so just sort of to go take a couple steps back. Sure, I always have to talk about college. I always talk about, you know, film school and this and that that's something to that I just as I keep talking to more and more people from this podcast, that's one thing is to not everyone's going to succeed, whether it be screenwriting or directing or whatever. The other thing is, do you really need to go to make a film? I say no. I mean, I'm a big advocate, you know, people always ask me about film and going to college whenever. I'm actually the guy that talks you out of going into the film industry, and I'm also the guy tells you to quit college and never go there to begin with. So because, like, because, to me, colleges, it's a the more I experience people with degrees, you know, I talked to them. And more experience talking to people with who have these degrees, and they have a degree in, like, business, like me, or something like, you know, chemical engineering. And it's like, we don't even do in the go do anything in that field. And it was like, what was the point of that? I think that if we did more of, like a mentorship here, sure where it's like, you know, you gotta, even if you're in high school and you take a gap year, go, go work in the film industry, because you can find 10 kajillion independent films going on every day in this country and, you know, or even over the world, find out, this is what you want to do. Yeah, a lot of actresses, I mean, and I want to ask you this question. In my opinion, a lot of actresses, and I hate to pick on the females, but, but a lot of actresses don't actually like acting. I think they like them. They like the idea of being famous in this just speaking strictly in my experience in the New York Philly areas.

Will Ball 18:59
So, I mean, I do think that's, that's I think both genders definitely feel that way. That's a lot of people. And I'll take a step back real quick, just because I'm missing. You shouldn't go to college. You should never assuming. You should never stop learning. That's, that's essentially what it is. So like, even if you don't have to go to school to pick up a book, you know, like you, and you should pick up books and learn the basics of filmmaking, and then, because you need to know the rules in order to break the rules in order to break the rules. That's I totally believe that. But you don't need to go to cops like you can just pick up those books on your own. Having said about, like, about the talent, you know, yeah, a lot of people get into this industry for a variety of reasons. And it's funny, when I was actually starting off as an actor myself, I read in a book that was like, if you're getting into this for the money, you shouldn't be doing this. If you're doing this for fame, you shouldn't be doing this. And if you want fame, like, that's something you've got to kind of work on yourself for because, like, you know, like, that's not a reason to get into acting. And those are the people too, that once they start getting into acting, they get so discouraged so quickly. Once they hear no, you know, 10 times because they're not in it for the right reason, You know, like they start to doubt themselves, and whereas if you just genuinely love what you're doing, then you know, it doesn't matter if you're at the end of the day, you got you gained a new connection, you made a new had a new experience, like you learned something. But yeah, people are getting for those reasons. They definitely fall way harder and way quicker.

Dave Bullis 20:26
Yes, I mean, I've seen it too. Even just doing like productions around here, some people just, it's almost they like the idea of people telling them how great they are, this and that. And I think because this industry, even the modeling, the print the actress, where you know the filmmaking, whatever you know all of it is it ties in together, because it's under the entertainment field. You know what I mean. And I think a lot of times people use that for validation. I think they maybe get in there because they they feel that if they could succeed in this business, it's almost like a personal stamp on themselves. You know what I mean?

Will Ball 20:59
Definitely, no, I mean, and that's the thing, especially when you know, coming out to LA, oh my god, the egos out there are just insane. Like, I went, I walked into one party, one time in LA, and the guy who was hosting a party was watching his Snapchat stories on the big screen TV with all of his friends. And they're all just like, Latin like, What the hell am I looking at like? This is like, why are you like, you're watching your own Snapchat story on the TV, like your guests don't want to see it, but they were loving it. And just like, it's very like a, you know, everyone wants to, there is a part of that rat race. They just, they're trying to, like, I don't know, they're feeding into it for each other and like and for themselves in a weird way. And I don't know, like, if I had that same party, the guy was playing a record, and instead of just playing the record, he actually had a stand where he could showcase what record we were all listening to. And I'm like that right there. That's LA, right, you know, like that. Like, it's not just like, you can't just be cool. You have to be like, in your face too. Like, like, let me show you how cool I am. Like, and that not everyone in LA is like that. I'm not saying that, but I'm seeing a lot of people who are in the acting industry out there. They they're doing that because they have to be. They have to give so many other models and actors out there. They have to constantly be pushing themselves. So to some degree, they just don't know. They don't even know what they're doing. Until you're an outsider, you know, looking in, you're like, oh my god, what the hell like this is so egotistical and self serving and and dangerous. But like I said, those people, they crash hard. And I can, I don't, I don't have any of them at all.

Dave Bullis 22:26
Yeah, it's, I think some of them too, they, they still stay in because I think, I still think that they feel, maybe that they haven't given a fair shake, or maybe because some of them, I know, do burn out. And honestly, it's like that. That's what you need, honestly, because it's good for everybody, because it's good for them, because it shows them that they're going to waste their life, waste their time, waste their money, on something that, at the end of the day is going to make them happy.

Will Ball 22:51
I mean, more people need to be told, No, an hour of No. I very say that, yeah. But the thing is, like, just like, you know, which one of us wouldn't want to be, you know, a rock star or a famous actually, like that. Everybody wants that, you know, but like, very few are capable, let alone, or at the right time. I mean, I tell people this all the time, like, like, so there are people out in LA who are more talented than Johnny Depp Tom Cruise or whoever. You know, some of the these a list actors, and they will never make it because they weren't at the right place, at the right time, you know, like and, you know, so you can be as talent as can be, and if you're just not at that right moment, then you're not, you're not going to be discovered. You know, that's unfortunate.

Dave Bullis 23:23
But so do you think that's because they don't have good networking skills, or it's because maybe they just don't have, they're missing some kind of key ingredient, which maybe, you know, maybe that networking? Maybe that is it. Maybe do they just not have the ability to to build a network, or get somebody like you to just say, hey, this guy's talented as shit. Why isn't he working more?

Will Ball 23:49
You know, I don't think that is, I would say, I just, I think it's part of this industry. And then being successful comes down to luck. And I hate to say that, like, not and I hate luck. I hate like, I think, you know, you are the, you know, the maker of your own destiny, but at the same time, you know, there's only so much you can always so much, even I can do, you know, when I send out my talent to the clients, you know, I don't, I can't force my client's hand in picking someone, you know, I can't say, All right, I can try to coerce them and say, Hey, listen, this versus really great, and that person's really great, you know, you should, you, should you, this is the person you want. But the end of the day, it's really not even up to my clients. Sometimes it's up to my clients, clients. So it's really, you know, down, down the line, per se, or up the hierarchy. So yeah, I mean, networking definitely helps, and can increase your chances, but I think there are some people do everything right and just they still aren't successful. And that's that's unfortunate, but that's just how this industry is.

Dave Bullis 24:36
And well, I guess, you know, luck does play sometimes a bigger part than what we think. Yeah, and it kind of goes into the lottery. Some people who won the lottery, they've, I mean, that's all luck. I mean, you know, I don't think you can actually, you know, I don't think you compare to prepare to win the lottery, but we're trained to win the lottery. But some people have won the lottery. They've asked them later on, and some people said, Yeah, I deserve this. You know, and it's like, it's like the monopoly experiment, the monopoly experiment, which is, we play Monopoly against each other. And I started off with 90% owning everything, and then you had the potential to buy the other five, and I just dominated you. Yeah, they never this same. People never actually said, well, it was because I started off with a hell of a lot more than he did. They actually go, Well, I had better tactics, and I had a better strategy and this and that. Well, it's with Jesus, if you win the boy, if you're going into 95% of the board and you didn't win, either the other person was incredible, a genius, or, you know, just the odds were against you. But, but, you know, as we talk about this, why you moved out to LA? Did you move out to LA? Because you were sort of burned out from being in this area, which is the Philly area I'm talking about.

Will Ball 25:43
Not necessarily. I've a few reasons I moved out to LA. Number one, because, I mean, I've always lived here, and I've always wanted to live in LA, at least, just try, you know, if nothing else, just live in a different city, you know. And also, I had, contractually speaking, I had a non compete with my other employment. So I couldn't start my own agency, because I was doing by by these 18 months. So I was happy to do and and did and, you know. And so I figured, well, I might as well make the most of these 18 months. So let's work in the entertainment capital of the world, knowing that, you know, one day I would want to move back, start my own agency, and then to have that LA credential would just, I mean, dominate, you know, and just having those connections, let alone the experience, would make me so much more appealing to talent, to open up the names you like, said right here in Philadelphia.

Dave Bullis 26:30
So what was the impetus to actually move out? Like, what was it in your life where you finally said, You know what, I better just move out and then and setting that date? Was there anything that happened or you finally just said, you know, I better just do it.

Will Ball 26:41
So after I left my other place of employment, I took a vacation. Because I was, like, I have not had a vacation for three, four years. So I went out to Portland and in LA, and the people who I ended up working with in LA, they had a sister office in Portland, and I had met with them, had a beer with the, you know, the one of the guys who runs it, and he was, I mean, super great guy was just gelled so well, and I really respected the company, and they really dug me, and then, so that's essentially what happened, is, and when an opportunity opened up, I did tell it was, I would love to work in your LA office one day, when an opportunity actually opened up, he I was one of the first ones. He called and then interviewed through there. And that's so, yeah. So it kind of just so moved out. So up. So I moved out there without having a place to live, but I still had a secure job. And honestly, I think that would be my advice to anyone who's thinking about moving into LA is, do not move to LA unless you were invited. Like, there are enough people there. You, especially as a modeler actor like you, think it's glamorous to, like, be rough in it, but, like, you have no idea what roughing it means. You know it is. So everyone has these terrible, horrible stories about when they first got to LA, like, my one buddy, my fellow agent, he like, live with, like, in the house with, like, it was like a two bedroom house with like six people, and there was like a meth addict who lived in the in the garage, diamond laundry, he'd be harassed by her, like, it's not like in that. I mean, this is sort of saying, like, it's a model or action, like, like, God, like, no, no. Like, you don't realize the, you know, how hard. And it also just move out somewhere new and not know anybody. That's so frustrating. I mean, I was lucky enough to me and my girlfriend were out there, so we were able to kind of use each other and help each other out. But, like, even that was like, I mean, let's, you're here in, you know, in your where, you know, in Philly, and, like, your car breaks down, you can call someone, and they'll be there in LA your car breaks down, and you're just like, Well, fuck, I got number. Like, I have to figure this out. Like, I take a lift, or I've got it, you know. So there's a lot of like, it's very isolating out there. Oddly enough, even there are so many people out there, there's like, it's rough, like, it's really rough. And they said, and I don't envy talent, but honestly, like, that's why I tell now that I've been out there even, not even just talent, like, from writers, the you know, producer directors, is to stay home, like, stay in your in your home base, and like, and honestly, like, succeed there. Succeed there. And then, then move out there. Like, don't go to LA looking for success. Because you, I can guarantee you won't find it. You just will not find it. The market out there is so overly saturated. There are so many models, so many actors I'd walk into, like a Burger King, and it's just like a casting there's like, casting call for models. There's like, so many gorgeous people around. Like, what the hell around. Like, what the hell, where did I walk into it's just a Burger King. Like, it's just like everyone out there is trying to get the same trying to, you know, achieve the same dream. And, and it's just too many people, too many people, too many actors, too many models. I represent some talent out there who are, I mean, drop dead gorgeous. If they, if I represented them here, I'd be able to get them a ton of work, but out there, like, they sometimes they would only get, like, two, three callbacks a month, and they'd be like, Well, what happened? And like, I don't know, and be honest, what I think it is, it just, it's just too many people like, you have so many of like, yeah, you might be the top of you know, you might be the best looking person here in Philadelphia, but you go out to LA and they're the, you know, you're the best, you're with the best looking people of everyone in their city. So, you know, it's really and that kind of fucks with the talent said too, is just because, like, oh shit, like I was at the top, and now, like, I'm, you know, now there's people here, they're even prettier than I am, or more talented than I am, so that that's very frustrating, because there's just so many people, so many, so many models, so many actors, so many, so much talent. And that's why you see a lot of people leaving. And I think that's what needs to happen. Like, so like, to find success in your home. You know, if you're a director, right, or whatever, do it at home first. Like, because if you can't do it here, then you certainly can't do it out there. You know, absolutely not, you know, like, it's so much more easier to be known here in a smaller market than it is, you know, out there.

Dave Bullis 30:50
Yeah, I've told other people too, you know, if you live in if, let's just say you and I live in the middle of America, in a very small, small town, it would actually, it's actually a pro to live there, because if I make my movie, I know Tom at the at the, you know, the auto body mechanic shop. I know this guy, and there's actually a more of a willing to help you out, because, oh, that's cool. He's actually going out there and doing something. Because you go to LA and you're like, Hey, I'm gonna make a movie out here. Everyone goes, well, where's our paycheck? Yeah, I knew a guy who came out there, and every day he had breakfast in the same place, and he finally said, hey, I want to shoot a thing here. And they go, Okay, you could have to shoot up, you know, early in the morning. He was like, Okay. And they started telling him the rates. And he was like, Are you out of your freaking mind? I mean, he's like, it is astronomical. And he goes, I'm just gonna shoot here for like, three hours. Like, well, still, you know this and that, because not disrupting business, you know, you could still go out, you know what I mean. And it's just that's that whole thing is a big talent pool out there, and you have to be able to, you know, succeed wherever you are. And you know, I mean, you succeeded here, you know, I bombed out and started a palm kit podcast, but, but, you know, slowly building myself back up, and I think you basically now you're ready to go to the next level in your, in your in your professional life, right?

Will Ball 32:11
So that's why you start. You know, when I was in LA, like, I loved LA, I really did I love LA. I didn't really want to leave. I still miss it. I hope to one day open an office there. Like, I would definitely want to go back that being said, financially speaking, it is a bitch out there. And like to and people, you go out there and you think you can rise above it, you think that you know you can, you know you can overcome it, but you can't. Like for me and my girlfriend to see a movie, any movie on, like, a Tuesday afternoon, $60 for two tickets. Jeez, yeah, to 60 bucks. No luck everyday movie, you know, like, so it's like, if you're like, the cost of living out there, it's crazy. And that's, once again, if you go out there as an a model or actor, you better have a big nest egg, a really, and that's gonna go quick, even, even still, you know. So it is just, the cost is just crazy out there. I mean, it's a good Dairy Queen. A blizzard was like, eight bucks. I could live like a king. Here we came back. We're like, Oh my God. Like her money goes so much farther.

Dave Bullis 33:04
Like, what was in New York, I was saying I bought a Red Bull up there too, because I had to take it in there. There were $5 a can for the smallest can possible. I mean, the dinky little eight ounce ones. It was like 525, each. I'm like, Huh? I bought four of them. It was like, it was $21 No, no. It was 22 something. Because tax everything. I'm like, Jesus, God, yeah, yeah. And it's it just it was, but I was like, You know what? You win this Rambo day. I needed those Red Bulls.

Will Ball 33:33
And when we were leaving, I talked to a friend. He's like, Yeah, well, like, in order to make it out on La in order just even to get by, we're not even living comfortably. We're just saying, just saying, just to make it, you have to make at least 80 grand a year, at least. And honestly, and the wage gap out there is so apparent. Like, you see people, I mean, in Lamborghinis and Maserati, like all I drove, you drive through the hills every day, and you just see, like, the money out there, and there is a ton of money out there, but like, all these people brought it in, or from outside, or, you know, like, like, the gap between, like, the rich and the poor out there, it's just so evident and just so drastic. And so they everyone, like, you know, I hate to say, but there's, like, so many homeless people. There's so many home and there, there shouldn't be the amount of taxes you're paying out in LA, like, you should, they should take care of the homeless problem. There's so many homeless people there, and there are people on the streets asking for money, for rent, and it's like, damn, like, you know, like, that's how, like shit. I mean, I It's like, we're all struggling to get by with rent, you know. And there's also like, the gentrification is really apparent out there. I mean, that's how, you know, we lived in North Hollywood, which was also in the midst of being gentrified. And gentrification such a double edged sword, where that eventually happens is that you get priced out, like you live there until you cannot, you know, until you're told that to get moving. So, yeah, so, like, I definitely like the way there's some of that. There's one homeless guy out there. I just see him every day driving home from work. He had a sign. It was like, follow me on Twitter at that. La homeless guy.

Dave Bullis 34:56
Really that? La homeless guy.

Will Ball 34:58
I think, I think something like that. It was. Wasn't that specifically. It was like, Jesus, like, if we're in, LA, I actually have to follow him after, yeah, look him up. La, homeless guy, I'm sure he takes like, online payments.

Dave Bullis 35:11
Yeah, right. Oh, that's even better. I can, like, send him, like, Air Tip.

Will Ball 35:14
Well, that's honestly, like, most of the homeless people out there, I tell them, like, Listen, I don't carry cash on me. Like, if you had a card reader, give you a buck. But like, I literally, I have no cash on people.

Dave Bullis 35:25
I don't carry cash. When the Uber does, I actually, I pay for these cheeses with a credit card online. I was like, See, I order go online, order through seasons website, yeah, and they had to deliver it because I got, you know, I don't carry cash, yeah? Who carries cash?

Will Ball 35:36
And no, no one does. Yeah. That's why every time I go to restaurant, even here, it's like, oh, cash only. I was like, Ah, shit. Was that ATM, you know, but, yeah, so like, moving back, essentially, was, for me, was it was a step up, because I knew that like that, even as an agents perspective, you know, like, you know, you're making money for someone else. I want to make money for me. And you know, from a fairly purely financial aspect, it's like, well, then what is an agency really doing for me? That if I just didn't take six months off, I couldn't do for myself, you know, like, So, and that's what, essentially, I've been doing for the past six months, is just learning how to open up a business. Because just because I'm a good agent doesn't mean I'm a good businessman. So, and learning, you know, QuickBooks, learning how, you know, hiring a lawyer, doing all this stuff and branding and all that fun stuff. And I love it because it's something completely new. But in my mind, you know, I You want a job where you have people working to make you money. You're not the other way around. Yeah? Like you gotta, I don't know you want. You want to be upstream, for sure. So that's yeah,

Dave Bullis 36:34
Episode 99 I had on Morgan J Freeman, who set the record for Sundance. He actually became the first director ever to win like the Triple Crown. Very good story about him, about what you know, what happened to him? Sure, he's very open and honest about it, but he had, he had a saying that I still sticks with me. Now it's green light yourself. Green light yourself. He goes, Do not wait for anybody else. You have to green light yourself. And you have to put those opportunities. Those opportunities to create your own opportunities, yeah, because it's not going to come to your door.

Will Ball 37:08
You know, I think it's also true for our generation as well. Because, I mean, going back to the college thing, so like we have people right now our generation, when we were in college, we were told, my professors told me, all the time, you're fought like there are no jobs out when you once you leave college. And so we all left college, and we had a ton of student loans now, and which many of our generation is still paying off. That's why they can't afford to move out, because that rent money is essentially going to the student loans so. But so we graduated college, there were no jobs for us. There was a recession which hit, and then the job market start coming back. Well, then this is this gap, if you look at people which our generation, and there are people older than us who have experience, and people younger than us who have a better, more current college education. And then there's just us. So it's just like, we got no experience, we don't have a current education. So now what? And honestly, and part of my thinking is like, Well, honestly, it comes to starting your own business, you're gonna have to, like, you're gonna have to, like, I said, green light yourself, and you're gonna have to, if you want any chance of being successful, you've got to just do it on your take that leap, take that jump, you know, and just, if nothing else, just try.

Dave Bullis 38:09
Yeah, no, absolutely. That's why I started this podcast. You know. I wanted a chance this to I know no one will probably hire me as their podcast host. Started this podcast now I get people actually try me and ask me how to set their own podcast. Like other opportunities have come in where I've had to been, like, no, no, no, maybe yes to this, and just different stuff, and I have nothing that's yours.

Will Ball 38:31
That's what I love about my own business. It's my business, yeah? Like, like, you fail or succeed, it's all based on you. And, yeah, that's a lot of pressure, yeah. But the same time, like, use no one else to blame. You know, there's no you don't have anyone over your over your over your shoulders, telling you do this, do that. You just have, although we do answer to somebody. But you know, when you have your own business, it's like you, you are the one and only. And that's, I really love that feeling. I love that feeling, and I it motivates me, and I think it's, I'm sure it does for you as well. And just like, it's just great to know that, like it's your baby,

Dave Bullis 39:00
Yes, yeah. Because, you know, you get a chance to do everything here with starting this podcast, I kind of, you know, Mark Maron has his own setup. This was like four or five people. I kind of modeled this after the Nerdist with Chris Hardwick, Mark maron's WTF and a couple others. And you know, the one guy that I've kind of modeled this after, he's got, he does everything just like I do, where, basically he edits it, he helped promotes it. It's like a one man band. I'm trying to go beyond that right now and just sort of get, get out there a little more. But we know, going back to, you know, you starting your agency, you know, you I think it launched last month, right?

Will Ball 39:37
Oh, no, we didn't launch yet. Oh, you haven't launched yet. So I moved back here in October, still been learning, and still been, you know, taking the appropriate steps on how to form an LLC and, you know, get my EIN and all that fun stuff. And so we are not quite open yet. We're actually going to be opening up. I was hoping for April 1, but now I'm thinking may 1, just because I it's funny when you open your own business, when it comes down to just you, you can get a lot done very quickly. As soon as you start relying on someone else, your business slows down to a crawl, you know, and nothing you know. It's not you know because the other people being lazy. It's just because you have to rely on other people and they're swamped with other things. So when you have to start relying on other people, that's when, when things just really slow down. But you know, so right now we have our website is about to be built. It's the same people who do all the big guys up in New York City, Wilhelmina, affordably, same people who build their website, they're building our website, we're gonna get the top of the line booking software, which is gonna be awesome. So no one else here in Philadelphia has the booking software that we will have. So really, really proud about that. And so yeah, so right now we're doing that as well as, you know, doing some stuff with the state of New Jersey. I still have to get my licensing, but in order to get a license, you need to have an office. And then in order to get my sag, you know, become a member of sag, which we will be sag franchise, you need to have your licensing and then also have an office. So I didn't want to sit on an office for too long and not actually be using it. So we're actually going to start the lease probably next week, with the office, the actual office space.

Dave Bullis 41:16
How did you actually find the office space?

Will Ball 41:18
I mean, just in the when we looked at our startup funds, you know, I wanted a good portion of the store funds to go to the website, the website, because that is what I mean, makes or breaks a company these days, especially in this industry. I mean, it's all about the website and how professional it looks. So we want the best website, not only Philadelphia, but also one that we can heat up in New York City, because we're really focusing on on Philadelphia, DC and New York City. I'm trying to kind of bridge those three cities, which is why we open up in Jersey, or we're opening up in Jersey. But I'm sorry, what was the question again?

Dave Bullis 41:49
Opening your office.

Will Ball 41:50
Yeah, okay, the office, yeah. So the office, we just went with one of those. There's Regis, like, we workspaces, you know, it's not, no one's gonna be in my office. The office just for me. I'll say I'm probably not even gonna be my office most days, you know, like, I'm always on the go, always on the Rhine and working for my laptop and and so is everyone else in this industry. So so long as you answer the phone like, you know, like, then that's all that matters, no matter where you're working. My clients are in their pajamas, not the time I talk to them, so they don't care.

Dave Bullis 42:18
So I don't know how much you could talk about this. Yeah, but you mentioned startup funds, and I think that's pretty cool, because, by the way, you mentioned EIN number, which, by the way, everyone listening, that's the the dreaded tax number that you have to use to pay your tax. Oh, but I've been down that road many a times I see that I'm like, Oh, the tax fans are coming. You could piss off the mafia. You could piss off a lot of people don't piss the IRS. Well, they got Al Capone. Okay, you are not gonna get by them. So, so where, if you can talk, how did you raise your own startup?

Will Ball 42:52
Well, you know, it's funny. Like, one thing I thought, going into this business and or being on my own business, like, oh, I can find a loan, or I can find like, or the banks will hand it out. Fun fact, banks do not give out the small business loans. That doesn't happen. You know this, there's really not, you can't even use your reversal funds, really as leverage or your credit. It doesn't really work like that. A lot of a lot of companies are actually funded by on their credit card Yeah, which is crazy, because, you know, the credit card companies can jack up their prices, you know, or their interest rates, or what have you. So a lot of I just, I never knew that. I felt like the banks would be willing and happy to give me a loan. But, no, it's not management. I have a really good credit score, and it like not to brag, but I'm just saying, like, that's, I was like, oh shit.

Dave Bullis 43:34
Like, yeah, they want collateral, or they want some, like a co signer, or, you know, because I got to break your legs

Will Ball 43:41
So so a lot of, like I said, a lot of small businesses just done through bootstrapping. And for us, we were able to secure a private investor who was willing to front the whole startup cost with that is awesome. It was great. It was really, really lucky to have that. And really, I mean, that we wouldn't be able to run if it wasn't for that load, or rather, would have taken a lot longer. So really, really appreciative and grateful for that. But yeah, so that's essentially how we started.

Dave Bullis 44:12
That's awesome, though. Thank you. By way, I just took a bite of cheese stick. But Well, as you sort of go now, where did you come up with the name of VI.

Will Ball 44:17
So what I want to do is I want to make sure that, like when we open up our agency, we're not on the defense, we're very much on the offense. We want to compete, we want to attack. We want to make ourselves known. So by just definitely kind of fit more in tune with that, as well as even our I mean, our logo, or the VI lettering, is like a crimson red for a reason, because we want it to be, you know, known as, as you know, aggressive. So if I definitely was fit in real nicely, I just like to having a three letter name sounded good. It just seemed to fit well with, like, you know, forward, elite VI. Well, I mean, you know, just kind of fit nicely in there as well. I just having, you know, additional implications. And. Like, kind of going in with the brand, but then also the URL was a big thing. So we had vi agency, calm was available. No one else. I mean, and I had gone through, there was a good 10 other names which I also would like, but, you know, they weren't available because the URL was, like, $1,000 or, you know, so that's a, I mean, with the website, it's something you really have to consider when you're naming your business, is it? Businesses, is it available? And it's someone else? Does someone else have it? And, you know, and I think there is another, there might be another vi agency in, like, Germany, or something like that. But like, it's, like, it's so like, that's, you know, that's not a big deal, but, yeah,

Dave Bullis 45:36
Was one of the other names, like a play on, off of your name, like, on the ball on the ball agency here,

Will Ball 45:41
People ask they do, like, like, of course, like, you get like that the balls models, because the Zoolander thing, and like zulais is like, the bane of my existence. I hear fucking Zoolander jokes every day of my life, and it's so,

Dave Bullis 45:53
What do you think of Zoolander, 2?

Will Ball 45:55
I didn't see it. Oh, there's garbage. So I'm like, did you see it?

Dave Bullis 46:00
I see, I see, I see a lot of movies. Will I see a lot?

Will Ball 46:03
I mean, I do too, but I just that one. I was like,

Dave Bullis 46:08
There was one funny part and the rest of it. I was like, What the hell happened? It's like, it's almost like all of the the the funny and the scenes and the the the craftsmanship of the first film was all lost, really. And it was, like, it was just almost, like, like, we weird. It was almost, it felt like that early 90s comedy theme, yeah.

Will Ball 46:29
Well, that's the thing. Like, like, those kind of companies don't work anymore. Like, like, I think the first one's kind of like lightning in a bottle, in a way. And that's,

Dave Bullis 46:36
There was one foot. There was one funny part, though, in Zuleika. And I'll just tell you what it is, because you're probably never gonna say, I'm not. So what is it? Move Festo Mufasa, Mufasa, yeah, he's in jail, and His Will Ferrell, and he actually has a way to break out, right? So he gets Derek zulander come into the jail, and he's like, here's my plan to how I'm gonna escape. And he has fashioned a Derek zulander mask that is so shitty looking. And he's actually flashed in another Miss looks like him to put on Derek. So now Derek is chained up with the Mufasa mask on. Well, Mufasa walks out this Derek zuleira mask on. It's so blatantly obvious that was like, oh goodbye, Derek. He's like, it's act that was actually funny. Everything else. I was like,

Will Ball 47:18
I just watched the Dumb and Dumber. Or I just, I, honestly, I turned it off, and I never turned off movies, but like, it was like, I got, like, 25 minutes, and I'm like, I can't,

Dave Bullis 47:29
You know what that part is, it doesn't get any better. I very rarely ever turn off movies either. That's why I've always said the first one was so good. I was actually just talking about yesterday, and then, I saw that one, I was like, What the hell happened?

Will Ball 47:43
I feel like comedy is in a bad state right now. Like, you know, the funniest movie last year was pop star never stopped, never stop. Okay? I mean, that was, it was great. It was awesome, and no one saw it. But as far as, like, comedies are concerned, like, it just, they're so piss poor and just half ass. And it's sad. Yeah, comedy needs to come back. And now, like, the Judaizers are over. Like, those comedies don't work anymore. Even those guys are, like, I mean, I had really high hopes for Sausage Party, and that was just, you know, it wasn't bad. I definitely like the story of it, and, like, some of the plot points and the villain was awesome, but like, there's a jokes on a smaller level, just did not keep that movie going, you know,

Dave Bullis 48:19
You know, I think the big problem is, and I'll call King aside him. No, talking about comedy is gotta get that. I was saying, okay, aside but was that is the fact that it's almost like comedy has come down to two scenarios. First scenario was this, you're the straight man. I'm gonna be like, the you know guy. You're like, Oh, I got a problem, Dave, and this and that. And I go, Oh, yeah, why don't you give her the old motorboat, and you're like, motorboat. What's that? Oh, come on, it's that, that scenario.

Will Ball 48:45
Or second Dave Need Wedding Dates.

Dave Bullis 48:47
Or the other one is, the other side of this is, you know, we harp on something. Like you, you come in and do something, and I just harp and harp and harp on it. Oh, that was dude. Did somebody say boner or something like that? You know what I mean? Like, you come in and you and you like, do something like, oh, it's awful this. And we just keep harping on that. And I see every comedy they if you think, if you look out, you're not gonna be able not to see it. Now that I mentioned seriously, they're gonna follow one or two of those templates. They're gonna follow model one or model two. But every scene, no matter what's going on, that's what it's like, every joke has that's why, when workaholic season three, they had a board of shit that should be stopped.

Will Ball 49:25
Yeah, yeah. I like that a lot. I think that's a really, like, smart way to do that. And I mean, even, like, honestly, I think also this, this improv movement, has gone too far. That's why, like, Ghostbusters doesn't work at all. Because you can tell, like, they were just on set and they're like, all right, be funny and just keep going and just, but that's not funny. Like, that's like, that doesn't make good comedy. And it just doesn't, there's some degree of that movie just didn't make the jokes just didn't make sense. Like, it just it was so nonsensical and just so confusing. And, like I said, but like, you cannot just improv. Like improv. It's kind of like, only a few people can do that, you know, like looking at, like, the days of like, Reno, 911, like. I was so funny. Like, most of that was improv that's crazy. Like they were talented. They knew they were all on board. Even that was, like a niche that now everyone's doing that back then, and you don't need to, you can't make a movie out of it. Just write on your you know, when you're screenwriting. Just be like, make screenwriting, just be like, make jokes, you know, like banter.

Dave Bullis 50:25
You know, the best part of Ghostbusters, the remake was the ongoing joke that Melissa McCarthy in that Chinese place. Yeah, that was the funniest like

Will Ball 50:35
That, because I could relate to that. And like I did, and I know other people kind of sitting on that joke, but I did. I agree. The only thing that was like, Huh? Like, I just, like, gave a half smile, like, okay,

Dave Bullis 50:42
About the Chinese place she goes, it should be up here in 10 minutes. And it's, like, one prime or whatever. I thought that was hilarious. And I was like, that's the stuff they should have been heart focusing on more. And then when Bill Murray came in there, oh, geez.

Will Ball 50:55
Like, you waited, like, you specifically didn't do Ghostbusters just to get this role, like, got the fuck out of here. Like, you suck. Like, like, all, like, all those cameos were just, like, so forced and so, like, it's just painful. Like, and that's, it's not like, it's not, honestly, I blame the it's not the women. It's the man behind the movie who like, and I like feet. I think he has some good like, he directed some of my favorite office episodes. Like, he has the capacity, yeah. But like, lately he's not been bringing it. I don't know what's what this deal is, but whatever comedy. So comedy sucks right now. And like I said, Never see pop star. Never stop. Never stopping. If you have it,

Dave Bullis 51:28
Well, I'll link that in the show notes as well. But so basically, now VI, it's opened up now, and people can submit to be represented.

Will Ball 51:28
Yeah, we're so we're not, we're not open, like we're not, we haven't opened our doors yet, but we are accepting early applications.

Dave Bullis 51:33
Yeah, as I was trying to say, was that you're opening up for applications, like, meaning that you can now submit to you and to be represented. So basically, is there any criteria that for any actors or models or anything listening to this, should they be, you know, like, should, should you looking for certain somebody, or you're looking for a certain size shape, or you just open.

Will Ball 52:02
So, yeah, so obviously, there's different divisions. We have our modeling division and we have our acting division, acting division, we need people of every age, every size, every look, so long as they are experienced and they, you know, are talented by all me, like said, I want to see them. I want to know who they are. That being said, we are not representing any kids right now, just because, honestly, kids are double the work and have to pay, and I just don't, I don't want to deal with parents,

Dave Bullis 52:29
Just like, it being a parent, right?

Will Ball 52:30
Like, and honestly, like, I'm one person right now, so, like, I don't have time to deal with momagers and data jurors and just like that whole lot in a church. Oh, it's all it's also a great excuse for, like, when I go to the bank and people are like, Oh, you run your own business. What do you do? And I'm like, I'm with Allen agent. Like, oh, well, my kid. And I'm just like, Nope, we don't, we don't represent kids. Sorry, have a good day. So, but then, as far as actors, or to me, models are concerned, models definitely have a more a strict criteria. I mean, they should be above, if you're a female, they should be under or over to me, five eight, if you're a man, 511 at the very least. So I couldn't be a model. I'm sorry, I hate to shit on your parade or crush your dreams,

Dave Bullis 53:13
But because I am five foot 10.

Will Ball 53:15
Yeah, you just fell one in short. I mean, technically, two inches. But like, yeah,

Dave Bullis 53:21
Really, I could not be a model.

Will Ball 53:22
The reason being, because people always ask this is, like, so like, let's say a client comes to me and says, Okay, well, like, they have one sample size, and they say, That's and it's easier for them to find a talent who fits that sample size, rather than have 15 different sample sizes to fit that one talent, you know? So it's really not, it's not my decision. It's just like the clients are just, they have their sample sizes. So, so, yeah, but so and kind of like looking at who we're looking for, both models and actors, we want to represent two people, number one, people who have experience and have a headshot resume or have a really diverse portfolio if you're a model. Or number two, it's okay if you're green, but you have to, you know, be really on top of your thing. You know, you have to be professional, reliable, have a personality. So, you know, I we will be representing, you know, new faces, per se, but they have to be right on the ball. They've got to, you know, they've got to bring it so, and I have actually, like, a whole interview process that I go through that can kind of weed that out and figure out who really is. But, yeah, so, like said, if you're interested, by all means, just send me an email. Will at VI, agency, vie, agency, Comm, and I'll be happy to send you an early application form.

Dave Bullis 54:27
Well, see, I'm glad they were talking about this, because I we all know casting calls sometimes, and they charge for certain things. You know what I mean. And you and I have talked about this before where it's like, hey, you know why don't you come to this open casting call? Or you see him in the mall, you know what I mean, you'll see him on like a wall, like hey, we're looking for new faces for this or that. And then so people like me will come in and be like, hey, all right, I could be, you know, I could be an actor, whatever. So I signed, I go and they want to, want a fee. Well, here's the thing. I've seen this in Philly and New York too, in certain acts. Managers have posted on like, Facebook, whatever, hey, we I got an agent. Now I got a manager. And I'm, like, really this guy? Like, because, so it's not because. Forget about talent for a second. I'm gonna talk about personality. Some of these guys are such loose cannons. And I mean, like, I would never, ever cast them, even as a loose cannon. They're a loose cannon. I wouldn't cast as a loose cannon. So much of a loose cannon. So even the point I'm trying to make here is when those types of things happen, like, what's, what are some of the things that people should look for, for, in case something's a scam.

Will Ball 55:33
So like, the big thing that me opening up fine, the reason I actually came back from from from LA, was because I was being told by so many, both clients and talent, saying, Well, you know, there, there's a such a need here for a better agency, someone who, you know, knows what they're doing, who has experience in a bigger market, but also it's completely honest and transparent, and has nothing to hide. And that's really something we're really, really stressing. I mean, we go on our Instagram or our Facebook, like, very, very like, we are completely transparent. We have nothing, nothing to hide. We make our money only, or will make our money only through, through agency fees and commissions. So we only make money when the talent work, when they make money. So we will never charge for any sort of representation fee. No bullshit, website fees, like none of this stuff that, like even some honest agencies, eventually start tacking on, because they get start getting greedy. So, yeah, I would say, if you're looking out, looking for, like, trying to to, to prevent yourself from from getting involved with the scam, definitely the biggest red flag is, is the money, you know, if you have any sort of upfront cost, and because, I mean, if you run an agency like that, then you have a talent pool of people who are just willing to pay that money to get in, not necessarily, are they talented, you know. So it's a that's definitely the biggest red flag. Also, if you look at the contracts, if they're exclusive contracts, that's a big warning sign. You know, we offer non exclusive contracts. I don't want to limit anybody. I don't want to limit our talent. Like, hey, if you, you know, if you are already represented by someone and you want to go up in New York City, great sign with me. We'll see what we can do. But if, you know, you sign with me and there you get an opportunity out in LA to go work with someone. Yeah, I'm not gonna limit you. Go, do it. Go have fun, you know. Like, like, I never want to limit someone's opera, you know, opportunities. I just want the most and the best for our talents. So, yeah, there's a few likes these warning scientists honestly do your research, you know, and ask about that. Like, what jobs did they have they bought? Like, what, you know, who your biggest clients? When you go meet with an agency, you know, who tell us about some of the most successful models and actors that you've had and what they've done, you really got to do your research, no? And that's kind of, I see, too, is like people who sign with scams, you know, they just didn't do their homework, you know, like they or it's because, you know, some of these scans provide all these like services that you could really do for yourself, but because, you know, it's just like an easy, I don't wanna say lazy, but it is almost like a lazy way of getting into the business without really knowing many people or doing it the right way.

Dave Bullis 57:52
Yeah, yeah. And also, I've seen a lot of it as an excuse to sell, like headshots and stuff like that, like services, you know. ,

Will Ball 57:59
And that's like, like, we know that's the thing. Like, we never like, so for us, like, if you're I will say, if you're a model, are actually looking to get into this, like, you got to do a ton of work on your own before you come into an agency, before you go to an agent, you've got to get your headshot, you got to get your resume, you got to get your portfolio. If you're a model, like, you have to do so much work on your own. Like you're getting an agent is a step up, you know. Like, but you gotta pay your dues first. So, you know, you can't just come in with nothing like, because then I can't market you if you have no imagery, then, like, I'm not gonna charge. I will never ask for money to, you know, to get you photography. But instead, I'll tell you, go get some decent photography, like, and here, and I have a list of photographers, so I know and I trust, and I'll give them to you, but they charge. And, I mean, that's not my business. And, you know, but maybe you have a friend who's a really up and coming photographer, or you have a connection, yeah, shoot with them. I just need something to market you with, and I can't market you with nothing, but I'm never going to charge for that.

Dave Bullis 58:52
Yeah. And, you know, I've, a couple weeks ago, I saw a photo online from this from Italian agency, and they were saying something about, you know, we're casting models and this and that. And I looked at some of these models, and I'm like, yep, wait a minute here. I said, Am I missing something? And after this is over, I'm gonna show you the food. Because I don't, I don't know about this,

Will Ball 59:21
We will, yeah, no, I and, I mean, like, that is so sad I see that happen. And sometimes the nicest thing you can say to someone is, no, you know. Like, sometimes you know, and, yeah, like, that's where I think agents get, like, a bad rap, and casting directors get a bad rap. Like, I know as much as I love La La Land. Like, I hate that shit when they're like, sitting on casting directors or like, oh, you know, like, next, you know, like, oh, that woman. It's like, well, yeah, if you were in her position, then you'd be that mean too, because, like, you have to be, you know, like, sorry.

Dave Bullis 59:49
Well, can I say that I have never encountered a casting director like that, ever? Is that just weird? Like, I have never encountered,

Will Ball 59:55
Yeah, it's very, like, stereotypical like, and I have met a few who have been similar, but you know, at the end of the day, I said, even if you were to act that way, hey, you know you can, and you have to, in order to like, get the if you were seeing like, say, if you saw nothing but talent all day. You would be very short with people too, and you would be very like, you know, because you know immediately what you the client wants or doesn't want. So like, you know, like, it's easy to shit on casting, but they have such a hard job, you know. And I mean, it's not morally my job. I just, like, I'm an agent, so I work for the casting directors, but you know, it's just, I do not envy them. Like that is a very thankless and, like, it's easy to judge them and be like, Oh, you're so callous, You're so cruel. But it's like, they have to be, and a lot of people are, but you have to be.

Dave Bullis 1:00:50
So let me ask you this, when you audition for game over, which is my thing was, I was I good at casting? Right?

Will Ball 1:00:56
Yeah, you were great. Like, then you were, I very rarely run into that, that scenario, but, you know, but I still you should go in expecting, expecting it to be that, like, yeah, you know, like, like, so don't get your you know, don't get upset if you know, the casting director does just say, I mean, let's say next, you know, like, that's just part of the industry, you know. And like, just don't take it personally, you know. Like, yeah, you know, going back. Like, so there are a lot of, you know, sometimes you have to tell people No. You have to tell people No, and, you know, and

Dave Bullis 1:01:26
Big noise outside, ladies and gentlemen,

Will Ball 1:01:31
But you know, like, that's, I think, you know, you can tell a scam by just looking at their talent roster. Go to their new face board and see who's on there, and just take a look. And you kind of can, you can you can tell, I know when we open up, we're really going to be focusing on quality over quantity. So if we open up, we have 15 really solid, great looking people who are also reliable, reliable and professional. That's great. I'll just stick with those 15. I don't want to flood my boards. I don't want 40, 5060, people who I don't know are going to show up like I I tell all my talent all the time. I am not your employer. I am your business partner, and I do not go into business with someone who I do not trust 100% so, you know, like, I have to trust you as a person. I got to make sure you show up on time, you know, I gotta make sure that you in addition to being great looking or talented, you know? So there's a lot of aspects to being a talent.

Dave Bullis 1:02:16
Yeah, there really is Will, and you know, I know we're sort of talking about all this stuff. And, you know, I also wanted to ask, I know, not sure, it's just shift gears we start. No, no, it's bad, okay, but we don't. For forgets. Look at my notes, what I wanted to ask you. And for gigs, I know we've sort of kind of talked about, this is the writers group that you and I started, yeah, and, you know, I think that's another avenue of creating opportunities, sure, and what are some of the things that you took away from that writers group that we started? Like, about starting writers groups, because we don't do it anymore. You moved out to LA. I got burned out from everything in my life at that point, and I was kind of like, Get away from me. Everybody. Well, you know why? I mean, right, so, but, but, you know, what are some of the things that you took away from that group? That group?

Will Ball 1:03:02
You know what? Honestly, I think that I didn't really expect their writing group to be so much fun. I was really, I really loved and enjoyed going to our meetings, not even to talk about writing, but just to, like, hang out with, like, a great group of people, and that was really something that I really loved and enjoyed doing, and just to just be around hanging out, even busting each other's balls and sort of like that, like, that's fine, you know, but, you know, I learned a lot from that group. And see, like, it's hard sometimes, even just yourself to stay motivated to write, even if you did start the group like you, just sometimes you just lack the motivation. And then what I've kind of come to learn is like, you know, don't ever say that, like, you don't have time for something. You should instead say that like, that is not a priority right now. You know, like, and because you know it's any scenario, whether it's like, you know someone you're dating, or you know, or writing, you know, it's like, oh, it's not that you don't have time for that person. You don't have time to write. You do. It's just it's not a priority right now. And I think that's okay, that's okay to admit, you know, I don't think you should really force writing. You know, yeah, it's good to be in a habit. I think you got to look at to like, what your end goal is and what you really want to make happen. And especially as a writer, you really gotta, I don't know you gotta. It's easy to write these, like, huge sci fi epics and things like that. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, well, you're really limiting your chance of getting made. And that sucks. It sucks for a writer, especially because you're like, Well, I've really got to compromise now, and that's you have to compromise your artistic integrity. And you know, I know a lot of writers who are like, Oh, well, like, I will never sell out. I will never, you know, I could never. It's like, well, then you're never gonna get your movie made. I'm sorry.

Dave Bullis 1:03:50
Guys like me, who are like, you want me to sell out. Where the fuck do I? Sorry, I will sign right now. You want me to know, but, like, number price, just like, exactly that sums up the whole podcast, right there. I'm selling out. Everybody. I'm selling out. No, I, you know, all kidding itself. Side whenever, you know, I sit down and write a script, I always make sure, if I write something, it's like a big budget, and I know it's going to be, end up being a big budget, $200 million whatever. Always make sure I realize, I say to myself, this is like a calling card script, or a script you enter into a contest that could get you to the producers. And I've had friends who've done that very well because they wrote a script, the budget would have to be at least like one, 150 you have to get one of the top people in the world to do it like, meaning that the people who still can get movies made, which is a, which is a list, by the way, it's getting shorter and shorter. It's really like that budget. It really is getting shorter and shorter. If you don't have like, a certain somebody on there, like an A list actor, and that list is probably, you probably count on two hands. It's not gonna get made. So what they do is even get as a calling card script. And then finally, maybe someday, there's another star that Hollywood can can in a sort of, I don't want to say manufacture, but maybe Foster, line up. Yeah, because you know it. They see Hollywood for all their money and all the marketing, they can't actually choose the stars, because it's what movies get. You know, the public goes to see it, because what that's through mega star, Harrison Ford, when he was in Star Wars, didn't even think it was anything, you know, it wasn't gonna be. And he went to on vacation, I think, to Morocco, and they were playing it, and there was a big poster of him right outside. He goes, Well, he goes, I think this is the beginning of something amazing. And he said after that, like, people were just, you know, and then they became Star Wars. They did Empire Strikes Back, and then, you know. And now, now he crashes planes on a golf course. But seriously,

Will Ball 1:06:31
So like discouraging it, and just like disheartening to know that, like Han Solo is not,

Dave Bullis 1:06:39
Did you ever see the panel he did for Ender's Game at a comic con, and somebody raised their and he goes and listen as the moderator and listen everybody. We're not gonna talk about Star Wars. This is about Ender's Game. Yeah. First question out of the gate was, would Han Solo make a good pilot in Ender's Game? And he goes, Well, no, because he's a rogue. Second question, would Indiana Jones make a good pilot in Ender's Game? And he goes, that's the end of this. He left. He knew he was just gonna get killed. And the third question I would have been with Decker from Blade Runner, make a good pilot, because you could see where it was going.

Will Ball 1:06:54
Like, Bruno was not a very good movie. But the best part of that movie is when he goes up to Harrison Ford. Harrison for just like, Fuck her off an old curmudgeon.

Dave Bullis 1:06:54
Yeah. Chromogen, the Big Interview with Harrison Ford. Oh Christ. But you know, one thing I want that writers group, though, is Will is you start to realize that, and some of the things that I, as I was, you know, taking, doing the writers group I was taking, maybe taking maybe taking a course, or, you know, talking to the people who are out in LA or they're doing their own courses, or what have you. One thing is always that you don't, there's you shouldn't be obsessed with rules. Yeah, I think that's so. I mean, I think we all grew in that group. I think every single person got better.

Will Ball 1:06:54
They also have to listen to each other too, you know, like, yeah, you gotta, definitely have to be receptive to advice. And, and I would say, like, if one person is saying something, like, yeah, okay, it may or may not be true, but if, like, everybody in the group is saying something, then it's probably true, you know, like, and I think that's that's comes, you really, and that's hard, I think that's hard for writers to do, because you don't want to change. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes we've all been there, like, we think the scripts come like, like, really, go over really, well, everyone's gonna love it, and then you come in, everyone's just like, pissing and sitting on it. He was like, ah,

Dave Bullis 1:06:54
Every time for me, no,

Will Ball 1:06:54
It wasn't every time.

Dave Bullis 1:06:54
All right, 90% of the time. I honestly, I'm glad that the one script that I wrote that everyone liked was that crispy script, and I'm glad that nobody knew who wrote it. And everyone was glad Chris be was like, he didn't know who wrote it. Was it, was it you Matt. And Matt was like, No, we know. I will say, like,

Will Ball 1:06:54
I like our writers group, because it was so genuine. Whereas now, you know, after living out in LA, it's like, Jesus, you go to a bar. You're like, what are you doing? Like, Oh, I'm a writer. And just like, okay, like, yeah, one of, like, 1000 I've met today, you know? And I think, like, I said, it's just, it was nice to actually, like, do something and just be proactive and just be a group that was just very sincere. And I think, like, you know, we were all in it for the right reasons, if nothing else, just to create, you know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:06:54
And I think, too, that a lot of writers, I think, speaking as we talk about rules, I think the main problem with a lot of the screenwriters, whether it be in LA or New York or Philadelphia, I think everyone now has sort of gotten the quote, unquote rule books, and they're all writing for templates, yeah, and I think Now, because I've tried to write scripts through templates just to see how it would work, you know. I mean, like, you got to try it before, you know, you know. So I tried it, and I was like, this was okay. I wouldn't do this again. Because, I mean, you're really like, what the hell like, you're following, you know, step one, blah, blah, blah. So that step two, and it's just formulaic, you. Yeah, and it's just, I, you know, I look back so my favorite movies, and I don't remember any of them those guys, because I, you know, I'm a no, I tend to really get into what, whatever the project is like, you know what I mean? Like, if I see a movie I really like nowadays, we call it stalking. But I was like, you know, because, like, The Nice Guys, I thought the nice guys were the best movie last year. I thought that was a phenomenal movie.

Will Ball 1:03:04
I liked it. I unfortunately, I was a little I walked away a little disappointed. I didn't think I liked it as much. And there's a lot of people who I really liked, a critics, who I follow, who that was their favorite movie of the year. So I it was a really good movie. I really just, I didn't like it as much as I wanted to. For me, the witch was, was my favorite movie of last year. I just thought that was, like the horror film of of the past decade. Like, just, it was like, so like, damn, like this. It also feels like, generally satanic too, which is pretty badass. But, um, no, I think going back to that, like, I read some advice about screen rain that was like, screenwriting that was, like, don't worry so much about the act structure. Just keep building. So long as things are happening in building and progressing, then you're okay, you know. And I think that, to me is that's how I kind of, you know, took it, and just kind of really took that to heart, because I'm not really good at, like, the three act structure. I so it still kind of confuses me, to be honest, like, like, is any like, you have this structure, then like, people try to like, like, compare, like, the best movies in the past 10 years of this. And like, okay, really. Like, I can see like, that inciting incident, yeah, that page 20. Yeah, I get that. I think that needs to happen. But like, I just don't really. I think sometimes you, like, they try to force that template onto every film, and it doesn't really work.

Dave Bullis 1:03:50
Well, you know, I've realized this, and it's also from just talking to a lot of different people. One thing is, certain, some people who do that, who take a movie and they put it into their whatever template, or whatever, they're brilliant. They're not really screenwriting gurus or teachers or what have you. What they are is they're brilliant story analysts. They can take Star Wars, or they take Jaws, or they take Indiana Jones, and they put it to that template, and they sort of talk about it a little more deeper, and then they go to another deeper level. And hey, great. You know, you're that's great. We've just deconstructed Indiana Jones and jaws. But what does that teach us how to write our own scripts? Yeah, and, I mean, really, it's like a replication of it's like, hey, if I take a car and I totally take it apart. That's going to teach me how to build a car. It'll teach me about building a chassis, maybe, and maybe about what, how a car would actually work, because it'll be an internal combustion engine. We put gasoline. It's on four wheels. It has a chassis. But as far as the design of it goes,

Will Ball 1:03:04
Let someone else dissect your script too. Like it's funny, like I one of my short films was made by a group in Drexel film students and and they actually found me on a website, and they were like, hey, you know, and I'm like, Oh, I'm in the area, and they're like, Oh, would you like to come in and talk to the like, the class, because they would love to have you. I was like, Oh, shit. Like, yeah, it'd be great. Like, I'd be happy with you. So I went in, I talked to this full, big class of students, and there's just, like, picking apart my script looks right, and like, as far as like dissecting, like asking questions. And they're like, Well, what did you mean by this? And what you mean by that? And I was like, I don't know. I was fucking drunk and high when I wrote that. Like, oh, I met it. Like, you just, like, looked in into it, as much as, you know, like you wanted to look into it, you know. And like, and people, it's easy to do. And sometimes, like, you don't even realize it's right that you're doing. That you're doing that. And like best to let someone else, like I said, Yeah, let someone else pick it apart and gain meaning from it. You don't have to do that. Just, just

Dave Bullis 1:13:31
Write drunk and high, huh?

Will Ball 1:13:33
At the time. At the time,

Dave Bullis 1:13:34
What script was I ever read?

Will Ball 1:13:36
I don't think you did. Actually, that was my it was like, reparations or something that was like, it was about, it's like a interracial gay couple during the post Civil War. It was like, Yeah, is really convoluted, not that good, to be honest. And honestly, the film was film, but never saw the light of day. I don't know. I don't know the director failed the glass or what. But like, they had filmed, like it was a significant budget too, for the film too. And like, hey, how much I want to say it was about, like, five grand, really, yeah, like a Kickstarter, and they have people invest in it, and, like, and I never saw any of the footage of it. I was, like, really bummed out about it, too. So

Dave Bullis 1:14:22
I do remember when House of Horrors got picked up by that podcast, and they actually had a live show. Actually had a life that was fucking cool.

Will Ball 1:14:24
I actually had to take that script down, because I'm like, now that I'm opening up my own business like this, out in the world.

Dave Bullis 1:14:31
Did you ask me to take down the podcast too?

Will Ball 1:14:33
Um, you know, I don't know if I did. I should. I should get on that. It's something. No, because I asked him to make some changes to that and like that. I think, as a writer, you progress and they you definitely looking back. Definitely looking back of it like, it's just not like a script that I so I enjoy. But there's some smaller details on like, Nah, wouldn't have written that. Now, you know, like, things, things change. Culture changes. I change, you know, like, evolve.

Dave Bullis 1:14:53
Well, everyone gonna link to in the show notes. So listen to that as quickly as you can. So we'll, we'll, before will get that taken. Down because that's censored.

Will Ball 1:15:03
Listen, listen to the script. I still have a fun time with it. I just, you know, I just don't think, I don't think a lot of people would understand my either it's a few more. Like, what the movies I like to go see?

Dave Bullis 1:15:12
I think, I think it's, it shines through honestly. I mean, you're talking about the guy who wrote a script called slay the gay away, which was a, which was a, another satire script about, you know, a slasher to play the game.

Will Ball 1:15:26
I think there's a lot of times like, and I've done it too, where, like, I want the satire to come through, and I'm not necessarily, necessarily sure if it did, you know. And that's, you know, yeah, you see it a certain way, but how it's interpreted can be different and completely opposite of how you want meant it to be. So, you know, like, I think they have to be very mindful of that.

Dave Bullis 1:15:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very true. Well, very true, which is why, you know, lights competitions, I think, too, they're looking for certain scripts, because, like, certain scripts, I would never send other ones. I made that mistake one time. I actually sent a horror script that I wrote, but it was like a comedy horror in one of those competitions. And actually they teed off on poor bullets, man. They were actually went. I cried for days.

Will Ball 1:16:08
I went to, I submitted a screenplay to one of those Film Festival, horror film festivals as well. Didn't even make it through like the first round. And then I went to a movie when I was in LA I actually went to their like Film Festival and saw like, the top movie that had won for them, and it was garbage. It was like, terrible. It was like, I actually it was like, even, like, on an aesthetical level, it was so loud. And so, like, the noise was so, like, it was just constantly shrieking. I walked away with a migraine afterwards. And like, this is, like, so insulting on several levels, like, so, yeah, you know, the hell with it. You know, like, they want to find what they want. And if you try to be different or crazy or, like, especially my writing, I like to kind of push the envelope a little bit, you know, people don't. That's not gonna bode well.

Dave Bullis 1:16:49
Well, I think, I think that's why I always tell people gotta pick and choose what contest you enter, because that fee, no matter what, is an expense. Yeah, it does. That's what I mean. So that's why, when, whenever I hear somebody say, Well, I got this one script. I'm gonna enter in these 10 competitions. And I'm like, don't, don't, don't think, think smaller, smaller, less is more. And because I know a girl who won like 17 competitions, and it never got her job, yeah, it was just her network, yeah?

Will Ball 1:17:15
But yes, yeah, no, it's very true, very true networking. It's hard. I mean, it's cream links, it's just a whole different barrel jar. But luckily, with the internet, like I said, you don't have to be in LA, yeah, awesome. Like said, you can be here and right in the next award winning screenplay. And that's, that's what's so awesome about the internet, and that's even, that's where the film industry is changing so much, because you don't have to be in LA anymore, which is what I tell everyone, don't you have to be there. Don't have to be there. You moved to Atlanta. You're not gonna go to Atlanta. You know, they're filming tons of shit there. It won't dead, all the Marvel films. And go to Atlanta, you know, like, don't, don't, you don't have to be there.

Dave Bullis 1:17:49
Well, I want to tell you guys a vote of confidence. Well, that I'm gonna write my an award winning screenplay from here in Philadelphia. Yeah, acid on the mat. Well, I remember when we were doing game over and I was we got in the paper, we got in a bunch of different papers and websites, and this that the amount of people I had bugging me for shit was unreal. And I still have people coming to me, you know, from time to time about this podcast, not in a bad way, because all the people who tune in, I love you all, but no like, people who like message me and they're like, saying shit like, Hey, Dave, I can you get this producer to come talk to me? I had Cassian overs on here, who did Dallas Buyers Club. He's an A list producer. And they're like, Hey, we can we pitch him some can I get his contact info? Oh yeah, sure. I've built up all these relationships just to give them to you guy.

Will Ball 1:18:35
Why not? Like, people don't understand, like, how relationships work, and and some relationships, and especially this as an agent, like, are very new and very fresh. And like, you know, like, you don't want to test that like relationship, just yeah, like, you can't, like,

Dave Bullis 1:18:46
Remember that one guy who I won't name, who we always were talking about that he always seemed like a very needy person. Here, I'm gonna mouth his name to you.

Will Ball 1:18:55
Oh, yeah. And let me tell you, man. But also I can, as an agent, you can sense someone being fake from a mile away. I hate it about it, so it's the worst part of my job is when people are just like, you know that they just want something out of you. And, yeah, it reeks like, it just, it's like, the stench of just like, of just neediness and just, like, it's just, it's disingenuous. Like, I tell people all the time, like, like, and I've had people come up to me like, well, like, oh, you know, like, like, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm an actor. And like, let's just sit down and have a beer and let's be friends. I want to get to know, we won't talk about the industry, but let's just chill out and be friends. Like, no, I don't want to be your friend. I got enough friends. Like, if you came to me, it was like, Well, I want to pick your brain about, you know, acting or modeling. Let me buy you a beer and let me kiss your ass for like, an hour. I'd be like, Thanks for saying that absolutely, you know, like I'd be happy.

Dave Bullis 1:19:48
That's how I got you on this podcast. I lured you over cheesesteaks and ass kissing.

Will Ball 1:19:55
It's just so easy I feel like you don't need to pretend to be you. Someone you're not, you know, you don't like just enough people being fake and disingenuous in the world right now, you just be real and honest with people. And it's really refreshing to hear that in any profession you know, like, just cut through the bullshit.

Dave Bullis 1:20:21
Will Ball I think we're about out of time. Oh no.

Will Ball 1:20:21
Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun.

Dave Bullis 1:20:30
I know I hate to I we keep talking.

Will Ball 1:20:32
We have a lot to edit.

Dave Bullis 1:20:34
Yeah, well, I'm just saying we're just about out of time. Okay, where can we find you out online? Yeah, so I think it was a good spot to end it, by the way. I think just be seriously, yeah.

Will Ball 1:20:44
So you can go to my website via agency.com it is a temporary website up right now. I'm pretty soon that will be replaced by a much more professional looking website. You can just send me an email. [email protected]. You can find us on Snapchat, on Instagram, at vi agency, or you can just send me on Instagram as well. I'm just willy buttz, B, U, T, T Z, my dad used to always call me Willie Butts. So, W, I, L,L, I, E, B, U T, T Z, so yeah, follow me on Instagram. Say hello. I'd be happy to say and give any advice that I can.

Dave Bullis 1:21:15
Yeah, and I'll link to all will of Will's contacts in the show notes I know probably, and I always, as of right now, also link to all your show notes, or, sorry, all your social media channels, because I was obviously promoting this upcoming appearance. Questions did come in. I think we got to a lot of them. That's usually what happens, usually in the course conversation. Notice these questions get answered, unless it's something completely outlandish, like the first question for Cassian was, how can I pitch you? I was like, I told him, I said, and he's like, you know, let's just ask it. I said, all right. And I asked him that. And he goes, if you're really good, he goes, you'll know how to pitch me. Yeah, that was how he answered it. And I thought that was so it's a cool way to answer Yeah, because I was like, Well, I got his contact info now, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But, but, yeah, it's just, it's just funny stuff. Yeah, Willie Butts,

Will Ball 1:22:02
Thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 1:22:04
Appreciate it. Yeah, it's been, it's been a year and a half. Too long, too long. You gotta come back on some time when you're, when you're when you're rich and famous, and I really have to, like, kiss your ass me. I'm still gonna be, I'm gonna be living in, like a street, some corner, so I'm gonna be that guy on the street begging for change money,

Will Ball 1:22:26
Just like that. Aston homeless guy,

Dave Bullis 1:22:28
That Aston homeless guy. And that's all put Aston on the map. Willie Butts. Thanks a lot, man. I really appreciate it.

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BPS 472: Why Most Indie Films Fail Before Production Even Starts with Jenna Edwards

May 21, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a dangerous illusion that lives inside independent filmmaking—the belief that passion alone is enough. That if you just love movies deeply enough, sacrifice enough sleep, survive enough rejection, and keep grinding long enough, eventually the industry opens its doors. But on today’s episode, Jenna Edwards dismantles that fantasy with the kind of honesty that only comes from experience. Not theory. Not social media inspiration. Real experience.

Before becoming a producer, Jenna was an actress navigating the chaos of Los Angeles. She landed roles on iconic shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Malcolm in the Middle, experiences that taught her something most actors eventually learn: you’re never auditioning for just one role. Every audition becomes an opportunity for someone to remember you later. Sometimes years later. That mindset—staying open instead of desperate—quietly becomes one of the central themes of the conversation. Because desperation, according to Jenna, destroys careers faster than lack of talent ever will.

It’s a brutal truth that many filmmakers and screenwriters avoid confronting. Too many people approach the industry wanting validation before they’ve built anything tangible. They wait to be discovered instead of creating momentum themselves. And in today’s world, that strategy no longer works. “Create your own career,” she explains, emphasizing that filmmakers can’t afford to sit around hoping agents, managers, or investors magically appear.

That idea becomes especially powerful when the conversation shifts into producing. Jenna’s perspective on independent filmmaking is refreshingly practical. Most films don’t fail because the idea is bad—they fail because there’s no roadmap. No distribution strategy. No business plan. No understanding of who the audience is or how the investors get their money back. And that’s the part many creatives resist hearing. Because filmmaking feels like art. But surviving in filmmaking requires thinking like a business.

Jenna repeatedly returns to this idea of intentionality. If your dream is to direct grounded emotional dramas, then every short film, every networking event, every collaboration should move you closer to that goal. Instead, many filmmakers scatter their energy everywhere—making horror films because they seem “easier to sell,” networking with people they don’t align with creatively, chasing trends they don’t even care about. It creates careers with no foundation.

Her analogy is simple but devastatingly accurate: building a filmmaking career is like building a house. You can’t work on the roof before laying the foundation. And you definitely can’t build three different houses at once and expect any of them to stand. That clarity extends into her philosophy about producing itself.

One of the most eye-opening sections of the conversation revolves around ego on set. Jenna points out that many inexperienced producers mistake visibility for usefulness. They create unnecessary problems simply so they can be seen “solving” them later. Meanwhile, truly effective producers are often invisible because they handled the chaos long before production even started. That insight cuts deep because it exposes how much independent filmmaking is driven by insecurity rather than leadership.

And insecurity creates friction. Bad communication. Passive aggression. Endless drama. Entire productions derailed because people need to feel important rather than effective. Jenna’s solution is deceptively simple: remove ego and ask one question constantly—What’s best for the project? Not what protects your pride. Not what gives you credit. Not what makes you feel powerful. What actually serves the film?

It’s the kind of mindset that transforms productions from emotional battlegrounds into collaborative systems. And in an industry filled with fragile egos, that shift becomes incredibly valuable. But perhaps the most powerful part of the episode has nothing to do with filmmaking at all.

After surviving a horrific tragedy that caused years of severe PTSD, Jenna rebuilt her life piece by piece. That experience fundamentally changed how she sees creativity, collaboration, and purpose. There’s a groundedness in her perspective that feels earned—not manufactured. She understands what it means to lose momentum, lose confidence, and slowly find your way back.

And maybe that’s why her filmmaking advice resonates so strongly. Because underneath all the strategy, networking, and business talk is something much more human: sustainability. Not just building projects. Building a life and career that can survive the emotional weight of the industry itself.

In the end, Jenna Edwards offers something many filmmakers desperately need—not motivation, but perspective. The understanding that talent is only one piece of the equation. Success comes from clarity, planning, collaboration, resilience, and the willingness to build intentionally instead of emotionally reacting to every opportunity that appears.

Because filmmaking isn’t just about making movies. It’s about learning how to sustain the person making them.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
I have a guest who has been on Malcolm in the Middle. She has been on Buffy. She has actually been done a podcast herself. Now she's doing a lot of really great stuff in the producing space with guest Jenna Edwards. Jenna, how are you?

Jenna Edwards 2:10
I'm great. How are you?

Dave Bullis 2:12
Good! Thank you. You know, I was just reading your bio, and that's actually really cool that you, you know, produced the first feature with Hulu, and I definitely want to get into that, but, but the first question I have for you is, is, you know, it's gonna and I ask everyone this, and that is Jenna, how did you find yourself in the film industry? Meaning, is this something you've always wanted to do, or is this something that you sort of just found yourself in one day?

Jenna Edwards 2:37
It's a great question. I have a two part answer to that. I always knew I wanted to be in the entertainment industry. I, truth be told, came out to LA to be an actor in television and got into film, producing kicking and screaming. So not really by choice, but I love it, and I'm so grateful to my friend who kind of drug me into it, and that's really the answer to that question, kicking and screaming and joyfully. So

Dave Bullis 3:10
Well, usually the kicking and screaming part, I can relate to, but joyfully so not so much. But no, I'm just kidding, but yeah, you know, I did look at your IMDB, and I did see you have some really awesome credits, you know, as an actress. So that's why, when I saw that, I said, Wow. I said, Jenna either has tremendous connections or luck or she, you know, she started off as an actress, and that's exactly what happened. Because, you know, you were on a on an episode of unsolved mysteries.

Jenna Edwards 3:40
Yes,

Dave Bullis 3:41
You were on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Jenna Edwards 3:43
Yes,

Dave Bullis 3:44
Malcolm in the Middle. And I mean right there. I mean those two shows, right there, not even counting Unsolved Mysteries, those two shows, right there are cult shows that, especially Buffy,

Jenna Edwards 3:54
I still feel like it wasn't me. I sound like, wow, that was really cool. How lucky am I? Yes.

Dave Bullis 4:03
So, so, you know, how did you know, you know, you get the job on Buffy, did you just go to a casting call? Or did you actually, you know, know somebody who just, you know, said, Hey, you know, Jenna, why you come to this, to this casting call, and you know, we'll see what happens. I mean, so, so, how did you get on the show Buffy?

Jenna Edwards 4:19
Sure! I Well, it's all started with Unsolved Mysteries. Actually, I moved to Los Angeles, and my neighbor was an actor as well, and he was here longer than me, and so he introduced me to his manager, and his manager got me the audition for Unsolved Mysteries. And it was I hate saying this so much, because actors hate me when I do Unsolved Mysteries. Was my first audition in Los Angeles, and I booked it, and I got my sag card, and people were like, really? I'm like, Yes, but I did that show, and then I was able to sign with this really great agent. And because I had my site card, and I did a showcase, not an actor showcase, traditional in the traditional format, but I was in a class that had a showcase at the end. And I met this agent, and we met and we got along really great. And I actually started working for him, which I I strongly suggest every actor get their butts into agencies, management companies and casting and see if they can intern or be an assistant, because you learn so much about the other side of the table that I think makes actors much more hireable. But I digress. So then I had an audition for Buffy the year before it see its last season. And you guys, literally, I was the day before the I got this phone call. I was like, That's it. I'm done acting so hard I'm gonna leave you, though. And it was more like just a release of not caring so much about the outcome of certain things, like when, when we're acting, we get in our heads and we're like, so tied to getting this one role. And I literally, the next day woke up and my agent was like, You booked Buffy? And I was like, I don't understand the words that you're saying, because I haven't auditioned for Buffy in over a year, and so I feel like they've made a mistake. He's like, no, they really liked your audition the year before. And I was like, Whoo Buffy. And then I got the script, and it was just this one little seven second scene. And I say that with all the respect in the world, but at the time, you know, as an actor, you're like, oh, they hired me because I can I'm sturdy and I can block a punch. That's literally why I got cast in that role. But then I've had so many amazing experiences with it, because that role, I don't know if you saw it, Dave, but it was the last episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and she was doing this amazing speech, talking about how, like some guys decided that there would be only one Slayer, and we're deciding to change all of that. And so basically, anyone who would be a Slayer is now going to be a slayer, because we need everyone to be empowered. And during that montage, I blocked a punch and rose into frame and inherited her power. And that seven seconds has literally had a huge impact on so many people that I've met that are fans of the show. I had one woman say that it inspired her or empowered her to leave her abusive boyfriend. And so it was this true testament of, there are no small roles. And, you know, you just have to be grateful for every opportunity that you get. And now I get to say I'm a slayer. It's pretty freaking mad,

Dave Bullis 7:55
You know, I agree with you completely, you know, because I have seen, you know, some actors, they'll get a, you know, a role, some in a part in a movie or TV show, and they sort of don't like the fact that they're not the star, right? And, and I have, you know, I've had friends who are actors come to me and they say, I don't want to be in this, in this film, because about blah, blah, blah. And I said, Are you kidding me? I said, you know, we actors would would kill for this, because they could turn that into something else. Because you know what it means. It means you can, you know, you take this, this part, no matter how big or small it is, and you use that to parlay into something else. And I don't mean that in a bad way, like, you know, but I mean that in a good way, because, you know, you know, like the saying Jenna in Hollywood, you're only as good as your last project,

Jenna Edwards 8:38
Absolutely.

Dave Bullis 8:38
And that way you could say, hey, well, hey, you know, I'm sure when you went auditions, they probably you they probably, you probably said, Hey, I was in Buffy. I, you know, I've done, you know, I've, you know, I was the girl in Buffy, you know. And again, the fans that resonated with them,

Jenna Edwards 8:51
Yeah!

Dave Bullis 8:51
Because, like I said, that's a cult show. And, I mean, you know, that has a pretty rabid fan base,

Jenna Edwards 8:55
Yeah, it does. And they're so amazing. It's, it's fascinating, you know, that was my experience with, there are no small roles. You know that saying there are no small roles, only small actors. And then the Malcolm story. I have stories for everything. It's so funny. The Malcolm story was like my realization of, you're never auditioning for one role. You're auditioning for any role. Because I went in there, the audition was for one line in the show. And Bryan Cranston, who is like one of the coolest people, you guys, he directed the episode that I was in, and it was so fascinating to watch him go from how the goofy dad to director. He's just brilliant. And so anyway, I went into the audition to audition for one line, and I ended up booking a whole week's worth of work. Like they they were like, Oh, you need to read for this other role. And I booked the bigger role because I just wasn't attached, like I said in the beginning, to the outcome of what was going to happen. I was just in there so excited to be auditioning again, because I had, I had taken off quite a bit of time from it. And so it's fascinating. It's fascinating the experiences you get to have when you just open yourself up to all the possibilities.

Dave Bullis 10:28
Yeah, I concur. And I, you know, before I continue on, I wanted to ask you, I just want to take one step back very quickly, tell you a funny story real quick.

Jenna Edwards 10:36
Awesome.

Dave Bullis 10:36
Because this is, you know, because just as we were talking about unsolved mysteries in Buffy, I had, I had a short little story I wanted to tell you, and I think you'll get a kick out of this one time. You know, I really don't act, you know, I'm more of the behind the camera type of guy. And I had a friend of mine who was, he owns his own production company, and he said to me, Hey, why don't you come to this casting call we're doing, we're doing it for this, this barbecue thing. It's gonna be a national wide commercial, you know. He's like, you know, and he's like, I just have a feeling, I just want to see you in this, in try out for this role. And I said to him, okay, sure, you know, I'll come, you know. I said, you know, if you want me to, I'll come out. So I went in and, you know, there's, there's the, you know, there's the, it's not a green room, but it's, you know, it's the room, everyone, you know, all the actors, and everyone you check in, and you sit down, you know, everyone's, you know, reading their lines. And well, as I'm sitting there, somebody comes out, I think it was his assistant, and he recognized me. Well, then everybody comes out, like the casting, like, you know what I mean? Like, they were in there doing the auditions. So he so, you know, three people come out, and they're all shaking my hand, like, oh, good to see here, Dave. And the funny thing is, like, some of the actors were giving me a look, like, Who is this guy? And how the hell is do should we even audition? Does this guy already have the role? I was like, I was trying to explain to everybody, like, Look, I'm not anybody famous. I just know the, know the product guy who runs the production company. And I swear, I was like, there's not a shot in hell. I'm getting this. They ended up not giving it to me anyway, but you know, and it was funny too, because afterwards, they were like, Hey, Dave, after these auditions, why don't we go out and grab some lunch? And I was like, Yeah, sure. Why not? So it just funny, because it's really like, you know who you know, but that just was like overkill, because, you know, it just was a funny, funny little story. But I thought you'd get a kick out of it because, because it just, it seems so redundant, but, but, but, you know, so I didn't, I didn't get the role, though, but, but it just reminded me, you're saying, but, but,

Jenna Edwards 12:45
Yeah!

Dave Bullis 12:45
I'm glad that an, you know, an actor who was probably, you know, trying for years it, you know, at their craft, got the, got the commercial spot, and not me, just because I'm friends with somebody, but, but, you know, so, you know, you were on Buffy, The Vampire Slayer. Now, did Josh Whedon direct that episode

Jenna Edwards 13:02
He did.

Dave Bullis 13:04
So what was it like working

Jenna Edwards 13:05
So trip out about it. He you know, so first of all, because I hadn't auditioned. I mean, I was really young when I booked that and and I hadn't auditioned for that specific role, I literally walked around all day on set, thinking they had the wrong person, and that the minute I meet Joss, he's gonna be like, Who the heck is this chick that I don't know. It didn't happen that way, thank goodness. But, um, you know, like, Buffy was my first experience on a really, like, big production, and it was fascinating to me. First of all, I'm going to tell you two stories about Joss Whedon, because it just to me, tells the the story of who he is as a person. The first is, you know, my my role was seven seconds, but I was being abused. That's the whole point of it. Like I was able to finally stand up for myself, because I inherited buffy's powers and there was no way anyone was going to hit me again. But because I was being abused, I talked to him and I said, you know, should I be crying or not? That was my question. And not only did he so let me back up, most directors would probably say no and then walk away and continue to do their thing. Not only did he stop and look at me and acknowledge that I had a question, he explained to me why I shouldn't be crying, and he was like, no, because it's too much for the audience in that small amount of time. And as an actor, when you can get a why to the answer, it makes it so much easier for you to accept it and internalize it and become the character even more. You know, it's like, it's a different way of asking, what's my quote motivation? But the fact that he was like, so amazing. You know, to. Job and give me that attention that or that time that I needed was just, it was, for me, just incredible. And then so I get done. And little trivia, here I was the last scene ever shot on the show. And so when they called, you know, cut, then they said, that's a wrap. It was literally the last time that that crew was going to hear that in this production. And so when they did it, you know, people started crying and they were hugging, and here I am all awkward, like, I have known you people for a total of maybe two minutes now, and I'm gonna go, like, I like, Okay, I'm gonna let you guys have your moment, and I'm going to leave, and my set was in this giant warehouse, and my my role was actually quote trailer girl, because I was in the trailer that was my set. And so I'm in this, like, big Airstream trailer, and I stepped down, and I go to walk across this giant warehouse to leave, and all of a sudden I hear Jenna Wait, like, really loud, and I'm like, Oh crap, do I have, you know, microphone? But no, I wasn't, you know, there was no sound. And I'm having all these thoughts running through my head, and I turn around, and here's Joss Whedon sprinting across this warehouse. And he's like, I just wanted to say thank you, and that you realize you're Joss Whedon, right? Like you realize that you just let me be in your amazing show, Buffy, and you're now thanking me. I was like, shut up. I can't even handle you. And then we took pictures, and it was just really great. It was such a fun experience. But that's the kind of guy he is, you know? He's just, he's just a good guy, and I was so grateful to have that experience,

Dave Bullis 16:45
You know, and that's amazing to hear, because I've always wanted to meet Josh but, and I've always, I'm always interested, because when people who actually work with him, you know what, he's like, his style, everything, I mean, I've always heard nothing but good things, by the way. So because I've never met anybody who has anything bad to say about Joss.

Jenna Edwards 17:02
I can't even imagine somebody having something bad to say. I just but again, that's my experience. So even if you did have a bad experience, I would ignore it, because I love mine so much.

Dave Bullis 17:17
So hopefully one day I will meet Joss and I won't have a bad experience. Yeah, because, because if I, if I, if I did have a big experience, I'd have to call you back and be like, Jenna, I've had a bad experience with them,

Jenna Edwards 17:25
And then I would have to, like, figure out how to get a hold of him again and be like, You need to apologize, because nobody in the world can think you are not the most wonderful human,

Dave Bullis 17:36
You know. So you know, after, you know, buffing the Vampire Slayer, you did take a break.

Jenna Edwards 17:40
Yes,

Dave Bullis 17:41
Now, now I know the story about what happened. Now, do you want to, you know, sort of fill in what happened between, you know, Buffy and when you went back to work as an actor.

Jenna Edwards 17:50
I'm a total open book, but it opens up a can of worms. Are you ready?

Dave Bullis 17:54
I am I am ready Jenna

Jenna Edwards 17:59
So a Buffy aired, and I thought, as an actor, my whole life was about to change, and it was going to be great, and my career was going to take off, and all of this stuff was going to happen. Mind you, this was before social media. I believe that if, if social media existed, it probably would have taken off, and then things might have been even more complicated than they were. My life did change. It changed dramatically, but it wasn't because of acting. It was because I was on a break at work and a man drove through the farmer's market in Santa Monica and killed 10 people and injured over 60 of us, and he hit me, they say at about 60 miles an hour, and I suffered severe post traumatic stress disorder, and I couldn't read, and I stuttered when I talked, and I forgot basic words, and I didn't sleep for eight months. And I ended up in the psych ward, where I thought my whole life, let alone my career, was completely over, and I just didn't, yeah, it was very devastating, and obviously life altering, and it took me three and a half years before I could work again, and over seven years before I didn't have a panic attack or A flashback.

Dave Bullis 19:21
So how did you, you know, start to, sort of, you know, I guess, you know, overcome all this, you know, were, you know, I'm sure you, you know, there had to be, you know, building blocks. You know what I mean, like step by step. So, so where, how did you start your road to recovery?

Jenna Edwards 19:34
Well, it was, first of all, I, my, my family has a history of addiction, and so I I refused medication because I was so afraid that I would become an addict. It nearly killed me, because the my chemicals were so off that I needed that medication to regulate the chemistry in my body and be able to sleep. Then become we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Like I always say I had a mental injury, not a not a head injury or a brain injury, but a mental one, where, just like, things weren't being processed the same way, and so I had to accept that I would be on medication, but I was very clear with my doctors that I wasn't going to be on this medication for forever. So we needed to have a full plan in place, and I needed to see that plan before it even before I would do anything. And then my road to recovery really started when I accepted that I needed more help than I could get outside of a hospital, because I was trying to get the chemicals regulated at home, and it was a really scary process, because some of them were, were affecting me in ways that they weren't supposed to be. And on top of the like people dying in my head every time I closed my eyes, I was also really scared of what the medication was doing, and so I checked myself into the psych ward after a really horrific episode with the medication. I won't get into that, but while I was in the hospital, my recovery started, I truly believe, because Drew Barrymore was sharing her story at the time, and what I mean by that is Drew had a history with addiction, as we, most of us, know. And at the time, there were all of these articles coming out about her coming back into her career, and what she was having to do and all of that. And even though I couldn't read and process all of them, I was like, this woman's an inspiration. And so in my hospital room, I literally put up all these pictures of Drew Barrymore just remembering her story and remembering how, you know, people have the ability to come back from things that they don't think they can come back from. And not only did that experience kind of propel me towards recovery on my own, it also is a really big catalyst for what I believe part of my purpose on earth is, which is sharing like it's so important to share not just your triumphs, but your struggles, so that people that are struggling can see what it looks like when you're done. You know when you're done struggling with whatever you're struggling with. And I also attribute you probably are thinking of this if you've heard any of my interviews, Dave. But I attribute alias a lot to saving my life. And everybody's like, really, alias, yes, alias, listen to me. Like, alias is the best show. I think it's the best show ever made. And it when I when I got out of the hospital, they said you have to create a routine for yourself in order to kind of pavloney and train your brain to go to sleep. And so at the time, alias was my favorite show. So I literally watched an episode every night before I went to bed, and it, when I would watch it, it would train my brain to start to get sleepy, and I started to regulate my sleep, and I, you know, recovered. And I never thought that would happen. While it was happening, I thought this was going to be my life forever, and so when I say that alias saved my life, I'm not kidding.

Dave Bullis 23:48
So have you ever met anyone from alias to tell them this? You know, tell the story.

Jenna Edwards 23:53
But I kid you not. If I do, I'm gonna look like the biggest nerd. Like, how do you even say that to someone I'm sure. JJ, Abrams wasn't thinking, I'm gonna create this awesome show that's gonna save someone's life. Like, what do you even say? Oh? JJ, thanks. No, but if you know anybody, I'm happy to tell them and thank them profusely for doing the work that they did.

Dave Bullis 24:21
I don't know anybody offhand, but if I ever stumble upon anybody, I promise I'll tell them. Do you have to talk to Jenna.

Jenna Edwards 24:29
Oh, thanks. That would be awesome. I would be so excited. I'd probably be I look at me, I'm even nerding out now, like a grown woman is nerding out so bad right now at the idea of meeting those guys.

Dave Bullis 24:44
Yeah? And, I mean, you never know, too, because there you know, there are cons, you know, the comic cons, and then there you know, so you never know where you could bump into them.

Jenna Edwards 24:52
Yeah, I know I've always wanted to go to the cons and stuff, but because the crash happened right after Buffy. See, I feel like it's been way too long, but who knows? You know what? The thing I've learned in my life is, you just never know.

Dave Bullis 25:10
Yeah, very true, because there was actually monster mania was this past weekend, and had a Buffy, wait, yeah, I think I'm sorry throwing a Buffy reunion coming up. That's what it is, because I actually saw it, yeah, because it's, but it's the Buffy the movie, and so with Christy Swanson. So, so I am, but I know they do Buffy the TV show as well. I know. I mean, I've seen them all, you know, all the time.

Jenna Edwards 25:36
That's awesome,

Dave Bullis 25:37
But, but, I mean, I mean, again, you never know, because, I mean, there's always so many people at these cons now, they just keep getting, you know, the more and more. And, I mean, so, you know, you know, as we continue your story, you know, you were able to get, you got on the road recovery, you're able, you know, to get back to, you know, to doing what you wanted to do, and you got the job, you know, on Malcolm in the Middle. So, you know, do you feel? I know this is, you know, an interesting just a question from an actor's standpoint, do you feel Bryan Cranston understood actors in a different way because he is an actor?

Jenna Edwards 26:09
Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure he, um, I can't imagine him not understanding actors in a different way just because of who he is and how he's trained, because he's a very well trained actor, you know, because I was just really excited to be on the show and watch him that I didn't even think about how he interacted with me or the other actors. It was just more my fascination with his ability to switch so efficiently from his character to who he is as a director that I that's all I remember. I do remember one thing, and I'll tell I'll tell all the actors listening this. So I had an insecure actor moment. We all have them, right? And I went up to Brian, and I said, you know, is that what you wanted? And he was so gracious. And said, Look, I'm giving you a piece of advice. He goes as a director, if I don't like something, I will tell you otherwise, just as an actor, assume you're doing brilliant. And I was like, that's amazing. And now, as a producer, and watching the directors that I work with, direct actors, I can totally see that. So any actor listening, you know, you got to kind of hide that insecure actor moment and really understand that if you're not getting notes, then you're doing it perfectly.

Dave Bullis 27:43
You know, that is a, an excellent piece of advice. Absolutely excellent piece of advice. I think that does that. That does well too. If you're directing a, like a, like a scene where that includes a lot of actors, like you're like, three, four or five actors, because, you know, you know what I mean, it's hard to give adjustments to that. You know what I mean.

Jenna Edwards 28:01
It was a big crowd kind of scene that I was asking, actually, now that you say that, let's

Dave Bullis 28:10
See, I'm reading your mind.

Jenna Edwards 28:11
I know I love it, I love it, but, yeah, I've been so lucky to be able to work with people who are really great at giving advice. And I like, I'm so grateful to that, you know, I think that's why I've been able to kind of move my career forward whenever I choose to, because I get to be surrounded by incredible people. You know, so many, so many people think that they're just all sharks in Hollywood. And I just, it's not my experience. My experience has been just gracious, wonderful, creative, collaborative people, and Brian is absolutely at the top of that list.

Dave Bullis 28:52
Yeah, you know, that's something I found too. I mean, not to deviate too much from this conversation, but you know, I have a friend of mine who just posted online. He's a screenwriter, and he's been trying to be a screen reader for like, 20 years. He can't, he can't get anybody to be his agent or manager. And when you see what he posts on Facebook, it's like, this is probably the reason, very angry, very bitter, very condescending and and I'm sitting there thinking to myself, I wonder how he talks to agents and managers. I wonder if he probably just walks in there and goes, You know what, I'm the biggest deal in this town. You just don't recognize my brilliance, you know. And you should be signing You should be begging to sign me. I kind of have a feeling that's what he does when he either, you know, cult makes an email, you know, sends an email or query letter, or anything like that. And, I mean, you know, I've had,

Jenna Edwards 29:46
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 29:47
I'm sorry.

Jenna Edwards 29:47
No, I, I love talking about this subject because so thank you for bringing it up, and I'll let you continue. And then I have, I have stuff to add.

Dave Bullis 29:58
Oh, I was just gonna say excited, one other person, and they actually their production deal fell apart with a producer, and he actually made a post calling the producer out, saying, I mean, oh, I mean, just, just going on and on, and I'm sitting in my sitting there, thinking to myself, who would want to work with you after making a post like that?

Jenna Edwards 30:24
Oh my gosh, yeah. And that's exactly it, right? So I always this is mostly to actors, but really any crew, my whole thing is, and if you could see me now, I'm raising my hand in one hand, you have to be really good at your job. But guess what, guys, there are a lot of people really good at their jobs. I mean, I hate to say it, especially here, like we're in Los Angeles, where the cream of the crop come, you know, to try and make it so it's like, you've got to be not only really good at your job, but on the other hand, you have to be really easy to work with. And I'm not saying you have to be a doormat. That's not easy to work with, but you have to be like my litmus test is, can you do your job? And can I spend 30 days in the middle of a cornfield in Nebraska without wanting to kill you? That's literally how I choose, or how I go through the actors, because and crew, because that's really what happens, like we shot, you know, I've shot several movies in the middle of a cornfield Nebraska, which is hard work, and you don't have all of the luxuries and and available items that you might need when you're shooting in Los Angeles. So you've got to be able to roll with the punches and still do a great job and be fun, and we have to be able to laugh. And people always talk about how much nepotism there is in Hollywood, but here's the way I look at it. I want to work with my friends, you know. So I want my friends to be really good at their jobs, so that I can justify working with them because I trust them. You know, my reputation is on the line when I hire someone or when I cast someone, and if you're going to make life hard for everybody on my team, then they're going to come to me and they're going to be like, what the f did you do? And I'm going to have to justify it. So, you know, you got to be gracious and understand everybody's position. And that person that posted that thing about the producer and the deal falling through, I mean, I don't know the details, but I've had deals fall through that I've worked tirelessly on and so if somebody was going to call me out on it, it would be just like, first of all, untrue, because there's no way I would go into a project without wanting to actually make it happen. And second of all, like, it just shows to me that that person making that post is amateur and doesn't understand the process. And so you've got to be just careful about, you know, showing your hurt feelings, because the producers probably hurt just as much. You know, they put They work tirelessly to get these, these deals together, and a lot of times, they work tirelessly for free to get the deals together, and then, you know, to have their reputation drug through the mud because something didn't happen. It's just not fair.

Dave Bullis 33:30
Yeah, I and you know, this, this screenwriter, there were two different screenwriters, and both of them, you know, always complain about not being able to find money, and especially the one and the other one usually complains with not being able to find representation. And I always go back to, I don't think anybody wants to work with you, because they can tell that you are going to be a huge pain in the air. Yes,

Jenna Edwards 33:51
No, it's true. Well and desperate. I mean, I hate to say it, but I'm sure everybody's heard like you. You can smell desperation. And this goes to pretty much anybody but writers and actors, especially, which is such a great segue into one of my missions, which is empowering people who feel disempowered in this industry. That writer does not need representation. It is 2016 if he really wanted to be a screenwriter, he would figure out how to get his movie made without an agent. You know what I mean. And so it's almost like this gut check for certain people, where do you want to do you want to write because you love to write, or do you want to have a career in writing? Because they're very different. You know, one leads into the other, but the idea of having a career means that you have to treat it like a business. And if you're going to treat it like a business, then you're going to get off your butt and you're going to figure out how to get your writing seen right. Whether it's by an agent, whether it's by other writers, but more the way that I would suggest is go out and find a producer that you do work well with, and get your project made, even if it's a short film, so that you can show people what you've got, instead of counting on them to discover it's the difference between creating your career and hoping to be discovered. And I feel like it's the same with writers and actors and creative people in general, because nowadays you can't. You know, I always used to say this when we were shooting April showers, which was like 2008 you guys. So it was way before social media was what it is now. But I would always say you can't talk about making a movie anymore, because some kid with their iPhone is recording it, making it into some video and putting it up online and making millions like you have to actually make your content now. And if you got a big, giant script that is going to be, you know, the next transformers, then obviously you need to write something smaller that can be made as a calling card.

Dave Bullis 36:08
Yeah, you know. And I understand completely what you mean, you know, because back when I was crowdfunding, you know, 2000 or nine, 2010 you know, nobody knew what Indiegogo was. I had to explain to so many people what Indio was. And they were like, is this legal? Is this bill? And I said, Yes, yes, it's legal. And I got, I had people send me messages saying that it was, you know, you can't actually ask for donations unless you are a for, you know, a charity, yeah, yeah. And he says, he said, You can't, you can't unless you're that he goes, and you can't ask for, you know, money, unless you know you're actually have either actually a corporation yourself, he goes. So crowdfunding that, you know, I don't know what this is, and blah, blah. And I said, Listen. I said, I was I? So I sent back this email explain what it was. I had a producer on the project. All my projects go. He looked at it. He goes, I think we need to make it clear that they're not buying investment in the movie. I said it's clear on the website. I said it's clear as a bell. I said, I don't know what more I can do. And every, every person that I would get aboard the project was, was like, baffled about crowdfunding. And, you know, I hope to crowdfund another project by the end of the year, you know. But I actually want to, I'm actually gonna go with Indiegogo. I mean, with Kickstarter this time, but, but, you know, I, I think, I mean, this is a problem that I find myself, and I don't know, you know, maybe this is something that you find with a lot of your clients, is that I tend to write things that either are too expensive because there's a location that I can't get, or I require some kind of, you know, explosion or whatever. And on the flip side, you know, when I try to write stuff that's more low key, you know, it's just it doesn't have exactly that's my problem, or maybe it's a little too off beat, is what I'm trying to say. Because, you know what I mean, like, it's almost like an indie film that if somebody read the script without having, like David Lynch, or somebody else, you know, on the on the cover, or, you know what I mean, like somebody who can make a film for, you know, four or 5, $6 million and you know everybody, but you know it's going to be, you know, it's a person who, who's who knows what they're doing. You know what? A person who because, because, you know what I mean, they don't want to spend $5 million on some, on somebody new, and you know they're gonna say, well, what's the biggest budget, you know, you ever work with? Do you have a producing team? And you know what I mean, and they don't want to at that point, I I mean, and I still don't, I still don't have a producing team that comes with me. You know what I mean? It's just usually just me, just little old me, Jenna. And they usually are like, Hey kid, you know you're, you know, you got talent, but call us back when you have, you know, when you have some more stuff on your belt,

Jenna Edwards 38:50
Right! Well, here's the way that, if you want, I would advise you specifically regarding that, is create yourself a business plan like so many times I talk to filmmakers, and they have no idea what their ultimate goals are and how and what the steps are to get there. So if you're if you're wanting to create movies that are David Lynch esque, then you make yourself the new David Lynch. And how do you do that? You say, Okay, my ultimate David Lynch movie. David Lynch esque movie, is this project? What other smaller projects do I have, or can I write that will cost maybe, you know, under half a million? Let's say that I can make in order to show people what I've got, so that they'll give me 5 million for my ultimate project, and so that during the making of let's say there's three, they could even be short films, but there's three films that I'm going to write, or I'm going to direct, or I already have in my arsenal that I can use as building blocks to get to this ultimate $5 million project. And along the way, I'm going to get myself a producer that I really love working with that sees my vision. I'm going to get an actor that I know is going to blow up because he's going to he or she is going to be the perfect lead for my $5 million project. Like you start to gather your your team while you're building up to getting that $5 million movie done, and you're building your team with product, right? Like we have to look at our films as product, in order to make some of like, show that you can distribute so you can make the money back on this, like, under half a million dollar project. So that when you do go to investors for the 5 million, you can say, look, here's my track record, not only in the creative sense, but in the funding sense. I made, you know, 10% profit on this one. We were able to check out just or test out distribution models on this one, and we discovered that this works and this doesn't, and this pays and this doesn't, you know, like it's time for filmmakers to start thinking of their careers as true production companies and businesses.

Dave Bullis 41:21
Yeah, you know, I agree. You know, there it should be more of a business acronym to this, there should be more of a thought about, you know, how the investors are gonna get their money back? You know, Jason Brubaker, who I've had on the show, even said, yeah, Jason's a great guy. He even said, you know, hey, we're gonna get my movie into Sundance. Isn't a business,

Jenna Edwards 41:39
Yeah! No, please, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 41:44
But you see, it's funny

Jenna Edwards 41:45
Business plan,

Dave Bullis 41:47
Yeah,

Jenna Edwards 41:47
Which is the business plan, but it's absolutely not a business plan.

Dave Bullis 41:53
And, you know, I had on an I had on Morgan J. Freeman,

Jenna Edwards 41:58
Okay,

Dave Bullis 41:58
And he was episode 99 and he actually won Sundance, and was the first ever, I think, what Triple Crown Champion. And, I mean, he has an, you know, an amazing story about, you know, why the movie was never released. Basically, it all. I mean, he even admits this. So I'm not, you know, not, not, you know, spreading dirt. But he even went all to his head, and he, he got into trouble when he was blowing off meetings with Steven Spielberg,

Jenna Edwards 42:24
Whoa,

Dave Bullis 42:25
Yeah, and, but, but now he'll, he works for MTV. And, I mean, you know, everything I just said, we went over with the interview, but, but, yeah, but, you know, just, you know, that's why Sundance, you know, maybe winning, it isn't the, you know, the best thing that could happen, because, you know, it doesn't, you know, there is no guarantees in life, right?

Jenna Edwards 42:45
Absolutely. And you know, it's so funny, because my first feature, April showers, like everybody behind the scenes, Sundance was our goal. That was our business plan. And so as somebody who made that their business plan, and then was, sadly, like we, we made this amazing movie, but it was about us, about the Columbine story, so not the feel good movie of the year. And while we were shooting, the market crashed, and Sundance started taking comedies, and they shifted their, their kind of film selection criteria, and they, they started to program differently, and our film didn't get in. And so we had to then figure out how we're going to pay our investors back. And we, we did the second day and date, which was on iTunes and in the theaters at the same time. And at that time, it was like, so unheard of. One other film had done it, and the theaters were freaking out. They called us the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, like, like you said about your Indiegogo campaign, like we had to explain how it wasn't going to affect the theatrical release the way that they were thinking. And I kept saying, I kept using the analogy of Wolfgang Puck. I'm like Wolfgang Puck's restaurants didn't go under when he started to serve frozen or put frozen dinners in the grocery store. His profits went up like it wasn't they fed into each other. And so it was a lot of convincing that, you know, the internet isn't actually going to kill your theatrical release. It's going to be a great way for people to, you know, learn about the film in different avenues. And it's like a rock concert. If you want to go to a concert, you want to go to a concert, but you're not going to not buy the CD from the band. I almost think, and this is my theory. I think that theaters need to start selling digital copies of the movies in the lobby. I think after you see like an X Men, and you're so excited about it, you want that. I bet you people would make, they would make so much more money if they started selling digital copies. But that's just my soapbox.

Dave Bullis 44:59
Well I actually think that, you know, going along with that, it's what's gonna happen is a graphics start selling like packages, like, you buy a ticket, you buy a shirt, you buy a hat, you get a digital download when that's released, and maybe some other like, hard to come by collectible that you know can't be 3d printed as readily and, you know, and you get that together, maybe even get to, you know, it's sort of like what Brad Pitt did with World War Z, because it was getting all those, you know, all those, you know, all that bad publicity. And then, you know, he was going to mystery tours around, you know, people were like, oh my god, what if he comes to ours and that? And I think that helped it out and but, you know, it's funny, they're actually, I'm not a sequel to that with David Fincher directing, which I think is completely odd.

Jenna Edwards 45:39
Love this business.

Dave Bullis 45:41
Yeah. I mean, I mean, where was he? I actually, I actually read the book, yeah, and the movie. I was like, What? What is going on here? There's so many times where I was like, What the hell is, why are they doing this? Like, this is, this is my this is the part that really had me laughing there in Jeff, you seen, what was it? Okay, so they're in Jerusalem, and the Israelis have, like, walled off the city, and they're letting in everybody else one by one. Well, when the, I think it was, the Muslims started to sing, suddenly, that what attracted all the zombies? And they said, but I'm like, what about all the helicopters and people talking and like, so what are like this? Is this singing, driving them nuts. And, I mean, it's just, I was like, What the hell is going on here? Because usually I'm the guy everyone asks after we see a movie, like, you know, they want me to explain stuff. And I go, I have no idea about this one. You guys got me how they the zombies can tell the dudes throw these noises and stuff like that. I just don't know. But I'm sorry to get sidetracked there, but

Jenna Edwards 46:40
It's all good. I just, I like action movies, so I'm very good at not analyzing action movies,

Dave Bullis 46:49
You know. But like, something like Die Hard comes along and it's just like, it flips everything. And, I mean, now, because, because, you know, that's how people pitch stuff, it's, it's die hard in a blank I had a friend. I had a friend of mine, pitch die hard in a haunted house.

Jenna Edwards 47:04
Nice,

Dave Bullis 47:08
Yeah. And I was like, how did this not sell? And he's like, Dave, that's a question I ask myself every day. You know, I and, you know, Jen, I wanted to ask, you know, just to sort of continue with this, you know, part of the conversation, you know, what are? What do you think are some of the main roadblocks to getting your film made?

Jenna Edwards 47:26
I'm not having a plan. Is probably the biggest. So, yeah, go ahead.

Dave Bullis 47:33
I was gonna say, so do you think filmmakers, do you think that this, this script, is just too much money, like we're like, we're just saying with me? Do you think that the script maybe isn't, you know, feasible. Maybe they should, you know, aim, sort of smaller scope, you know, make something for maybe 510, 15,000 you know, and shoot that short film first that you know, cost that raise that, you know, crowdfund, that money go from

Jenna Edwards 47:56
Depends on what the goal is. You know, it's, it's really interesting how many filmmakers and actors and people in this industry will just do anything. And what I've learned is until you're at a certain level, you really have to focus on one thing to start. And what I mean by that is like, if you really want to be doing romantic comedy and that's your ultimate goal, please don't make a horror movie because you think it's easier to sell, because then you're you're dealing with distribution companies that aren't in line with what you want to be doing. Ultimately, you're dealing with financers aren't in line. You're dealing with cast and producers and like every single person that you're putting your time and energy into developing a relationship with, when you're making a horror film, they're not over here. They're they're not going to be the ones that help you make your romantic comedy. So instead, start to focus on networking with people in the romantic comedy space, maybe getting some if you want to be a director, getting on some TV shows in the you know, more comedy space, going to film festivals that focus more on romantic comedies rather than the horror like all of the things that you should be doing should be focused in the genre that you really want to be working in. And I'm not saying that you can't make friends with people that are doing things outside of your genre. I'm just saying Be a little more strategic in the choices. Let me rephrase that being a little more specific with the areas that you spend your focused time on. Does that make sense?

Dave Bullis 50:00
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Jenna Edwards 50:02
And I mean, I It's heartbreaking to me, because I've seen so many filmmakers not working in the area that they want to be working in, and they work for 10 years, and then they don't have the contacts they need to make the project they actually want to make. You know, this whole business is all about building. It's like, you have to think of it like a house, your foundation, then you got your walls, and you got your drywall and your paint, and, you know, it's, it takes years to build that type of career, but if you're, you know, working on the foundation on this one house, and then you're going over and you're working on walls in a different house, and then you're going over and you're painting a different house, like, it doesn't make sense. So it's really important to think of it as a business. Like, if you were in banking, you wouldn't be networking with a ton of people who were in film. Like, it just doesn't it doesn't make sense. And that's specific networking. And I do have to say that Los Angeles is built for networking, so the people that are outside of of LA or a really strong film community might not have the opportunities to network the same way, but and they also might think of it as a four letter word. And I really want you to stop that, because I used to think that way, like we think, Oh, you're just you just want to meet me because you want something or you need something. But the reality is, in film, everybody wants something and everybody needs something, so when you're networking, it's not an icky thing. It's not like you're going to come in and take advantage, because you're literally like, I of course want to network with directors because I'm not one, so I need one. And they of course want to network with me because they're not producers, and they need one, you know. So it's this wonderful dance of needs and wants, and how can we all help each other, as opposed to thinking, Oh, how I feel gross because I'm just gonna ask for something. It's a big mental shift that needs to happen for a lot of people when it comes to networking and then being really specific about who you're networking with, and not wasting your time networking with somebody you don't like, you know? Yeah, I've really made a deal on myself. I don't work with people I don't like anymore. It's just not worth it. There's too many awesome people in this industry that, you know, why? Why bother? And then you're wasting this is a really great way to look at it for me anyway, because I did really feel icky when I first came to LA but the reality is, if I'm if I'm spending time with someone I know I'm never going to work with, or I know I don't really like, but they might be able to help me. I'm wasting their time as well, and that's just no good for anybody. So only spend time with the people that you actually really want to work with, and you really like and you really you're aligned creatively, you know, you and and energetically, to not,

Dave Bullis 53:09
Yeah, yeah, no, I know what you mean, because, you know, I've had friends who have had producers, you know, they're directors, and they've had producers come on and they just don't gel. And I've always said this to people too, if you're going to be, if you're the type of guy where everything is by the book, and you have to be professional, you have to work with people like that, you know, if you hire, if you hire a producer who's like, you know, hey, nothing's a big deal. Let's just have throw everything to the wind. You know, it's, it's not going to work well, because you're just gonna be a Mitch miss, a mixed match of styles, and it's just not going to work. And, you know, even you know myself, my own projects, I have worked with producers and DPS and actors who just aren't my style. And that's, you know, and I came to the same conclusion, I don't want to work with these people anymore who are time and energy vampires, who want to call you constantly to complain about something that someone did or might do. For instance, I had a project one time, and this one guy kept calling to complain about my producer. And I said, What is the problem here? Like, why do you guys keep freaking arguing? I was thinking myself, how much overlap do you guys even freaking? Have you think being like, what do you guys like bumping into each other in the supermarkets like, you know, any and he would tell me, Oh, the producer is condescending. And I said, Listen, that might this producer is, like, one of the nicest guys. I think he's too nice. In fact, if you told me that, I would agree with you. But you know, it's just, it's just stuff like that, you know what? I mean, yeah. And I mean, some people's egos get, get the Have you ever seen the movie overnight? By it focuses on Troy. Troy Duffy, who did The Boondock Saints?

Jenna Edwards 54:46
No

Dave Bullis 54:47
It basically follows him at the minute he gets his deal to make The Boondock Saints with Miramax. His ego goes off the freaking rails. And, I mean, he ends up the movie gets in turn around. Um. Then they have to, they had to find funding somewhere else. And, I mean, it's just basically about, you know, a guy getting his dream and just destroying it because he's his own worst enemy. And I think it's happened to a lot of people in this business.

Jenna Edwards 55:10
It does

Dave Bullis 55:11
Is that there is their ego just gets in the way.

Jenna Edwards 55:14
No, I love that you're talking about ego, because it's something I I talk about immediately if I'm about to go into a project, because my whole thing is, we have to know what we want to do with the project. So what's the project's goal? Basically, is it to go theatrical? Is it to go to Hulu? Is it to go, you know, a film festival route? Like, what is it? And make that decision, because that's the thing. Also, back to your question earlier, about, you know, what do you think the the things filmmakers don't have in place? And that's part of the plan. Part of the plan is, what are you going to do with the film once it's done? You know, it like it's great. If your mom thinks it's great and you want to show it in the basement, more power to you. But you can't raise money with a plan like that and so, and you also can't make an effective movie if you don't have a plan. So we sit down, my whole team and I, we sit down, and we decide, this is where the project's going. This is how we're getting there. If some other great opportunity comes up in the meantime, we'll obviously talk about it, but this is the plan, right? And then there's a whole conversation about ego, because ego tends to like negative. Ego tends to come from insecurity. And as a producer, I feel like it's my job to make sure that people feel secure in the process, especially the director and the creative people in the project. Because you have to feel secure in order to create big, is my thought on it. But the thing is that in that creating big, if they feel secure, they can remove their ego from it, understanding that everybody is working towards the same goal. And so I do, I flat out say there will be no ego, because our biggest question whenever we're having a conversation and there's a difference in opinion has to be what's best for the project. And so that phrase comes out of my mouth at least 1000 times on every project I work on, because if you can really go, Okay, this issue that we're having, like you've given an opinion and you've given an opinion, but what's which opinion or which plan of action is best to get us to the goal at hand, what's best for the project, and then that way it doesn't matter whose opinion it is, it's just what's best for the project, and all ego can be removed, and everybody can feel happy about it, and it's all good. I found that that's like, literally the secret to having a harmonious production.

Dave Bullis 57:56
You know, that's a very good tip. And, you know, the next film project I do that's, that'd be something I want to talk about, you know, when doing, you know, getting everyone together, all those producers, especially because a produce, you know, because and the producers, you know, I mean, because I've had some producers before, they've come to me to figure out a problem. And I said, I'm trying to write the project here. Why are you coming to me to talk to me about a problem and

Jenna Edwards 58:22
Not okay,

Dave Bullis 58:23
And me and the producer, in the middle of this set got into a huge screaming match. And I'm a fellow ginger, Jenna and and and my I can out scream a lot of people. I those people who hear me on the podcast are like, Nah, Dave's No, and believe me, when I have like that, that ginger temper, where I just start screaming, and she actually walked off and was like, I don't know why you're so angry. I said, you don't know why I'm so angry. You know, it's like, it's one of those. And then she walks away and leaves me with the problem. And then I'm like, then, then she was later on, her and I are arguing again. She's like, well, you weren't directing the actors, and why isn't the camera? Why isn't the this equipment set up? I said, Why aren't you talking to my first ad? Why are you talking to me about this? And again, now we're going back. It's it. So

Jenna Edwards 59:14
Why?

Dave Bullis 59:16
Why she was telling me the problems.

Jenna Edwards 59:18
Yeah, it's because most people who are producers don't actually understand what producers do. It's such a problem like I have to educate people on what producers do all the time. And so another tip that might help is to if you have multiple producers and there's no clear lead producer first. If you can remedy that, if you can put like a lead producer on the on the books, do it, because then the buck stops there, and they would be more like your producing partner as a director, like they would totally be your eyes and ears in production, so that you understood what's going on. But then also, if you have multiple producers, assign them something to be in charge of, because oftentimes they don't know where the buck stops, because there's four of them, for example, and they, you know, there's so many different duties that are going on, and they're like, well, who's in charge of it? And then the ball drops. So you have a producer in charge of of the cast, like, that's really crucial. You have a producer who's in charge of locations and and shaking hands and kissing babies while we're on set, crucial you have a producer who's in charge of crew, and anything that goes wrong with crew, you know, like just making sure that there's one person who's in charge of of these different areas will help, I think, alleviate you getting bothered on set with things that aren't your responsibility.

Dave Bullis 1:00:59
Yeah, you know, very true. I part of the problem was my, my producer was supposed to be, you know, when I'm not around, he was supposed to be the lead producer. He had a crush on this one producer and and that, you know, that whole thing, you know that. So he never really wanted to admonish her or say anything to her. And was always like, everything she did was, you know, the work of, you know, of a god. And we had a long talk about that as well. He and I, after the production. And,

Jenna Edwards 1:01:32
Unfortunately, after the production, right?

Dave Bullis 1:01:34
Yeah, well, because I, you know, I kept saying, you know, why are you making excuses for this woman? And And finally, you know, because I'm very, I'm very see, I have my background in business, and I'm always higher, slow, fire, fast, and as soon as I start seeing problems, I want to start firing. I'm like, I don't even want to deal with this. Because me, you want to me, it's like, pull it's like, going up a mountain top and, and you're going up this mountain, and people are trying to pull you back because they want to talk to you about, hey, hey, what about this? This base camp we were just at, should we talk about this? I don't like the way we're climbing. Why are we in these work clothes? It's too cold up here, you know? And you're like, No, if we just move forward and keep rolling this police. Problems aren't actually problems. You're a problem inventor. You know, there's a problem inventors and problem spot problem spotters and problem solvers. And I kept telling the producers. I was like, You guys are problem spotters. You don't fix problems. And then, you know, of course, I get the whole I get the Conde saying, apply. Jenna, well, we're not as smart as you.

Jenna Edwards 1:02:33
Oh my gosh, too. I feel like indie filmmakers do not feel empowered to fire their producers. And I've been in that situation myself, you have to work in a clause in your contract that you you can't get stuck with people who aren't helpful.

Dave Bullis 1:02:54
Yes, and that is something too I learned, because when I when I went to my entertainment lawyer, I was saying, you know, we weren't drawn new contracts. I was like, I for next project. I was said, I want to have in English, you know, in written word. What happens if they get fired on day one? What happens if they get fired on the last day? What rights do they still have? You know, you know, all that, all that stuff. So basically, by the time I'm done, Jenna, these contracts are like, you know, you could hold it in front of you and it would be like, it could.it could stop bullets, yeah? What I mean?

Jenna Edwards 1:03:26
Totally, yeah, I do. Well, it's interesting to go back to your $5 million project, and that is that this is you testing out which producers you can bring along on that project, which ones are going to actually help you get that project done so that the investor can see, okay, we've worked together before. Here's the thing. With investment, they're not investing in the project. They're investing in you and your team. So it's crucial to remember that and to and to realize that the that you need to stack the deck in your favor, as far as you, as the filmmaker is concerned, you know, I mean, obviously they're going to care about the project, but they're going to care more about whether or not you can get the project done effectively, without any of the drama. And if you can show that you've done it successfully on a couple of other films, then you're more likely to be able to get some money in hand,

Dave Bullis 1:04:26
Yeah, yeah, you know, as you know, as far as when I go to, you know, actually present some of this stuff, that's right, you know, they are trying, they are investing in, you know, in the you in the production and all that, and your team, yeah. And, you know, you have to have that track record and and you know, they want to make sure that you know you're not, you know, obviously you know what you're doing, and you know it's not going to be wasted. You're not gonna come back. I mean, because I've had people who've crowdfunded money, and they've wasted it all because they didn't understand how to budget that money. I mean, yeah, seriously. I mean, I. Go on and on about that. I know we're starting to run out of time. Jenna, but I actually, I had a question come in over Twitter. Oh, I wanted to ask you. And this is from podcast reviews at the hippo critics. And he, his, his, her question was, as a producer, what is the best way to present yourself on set to the cast and crew without overstepping your role?

Jenna Edwards 1:05:21
Ooh, good question, right. Here's the thing I wanted to actually say this before. A lot of times, producers are creating problems that they can solve so they can be the hero on set. Here's the great thing about good producers. Production happens before set even exists. So a lot of times, what I mean by that is crew will complain like, oh, that producer is not doing anything except sitting behind video village there. If they're able to sit behind video village and everything is running smoothly, it means they did their job, because your job as a producer is mostly in pre production now, to be able to be a confident producer on set, don't create problems that you're going to just fix right away, and if you if there is a problem, just handle it. Not everybody needs to know that you're doing your job. You know, like we had a set, a saying on one of our sets, because we had a producer like that on it, where we were, like, it's kind of your Epping job. Like, just do your job, you know. But the way to that, I've learned, is the most effective way to get the crew to understand kind of where you're at is be completely open to if they need anything, if they have questions, never, ever say no without looking into it, like if somebody says, hey, I need an extra $1,000 to get this piece of equipment that we really need for this shot, your your response is always, let me check on it. If you and then actually check on it, don't just say it and then sit there and then be like, No, I've seen people do that too, like it's just being a genuine human and not having ego and understanding that everybody on the set is there to create the same vision and be supportive and be, you know, fun. And I think the people that overstep when they're producing on set are the ones that are feeling insecure, and so their ego comes into play. Like, do you know who I am? I'm the producer. Like, honestly, if you don't, if all you have to say is, Hey guys, I'm the producer. I'm here for you. If you need something, let me know. Otherwise, I'm going to be sitting behind the video village, you know, or I'm going to be over here, or whatever, just that's how I would suggest not stepping on people's toes, but still being the leader. And if something is going wrong, feel absolutely free to speak up because it is your I mean, the director likes to think it's their set, but, you know, creatively, it's absolutely 100% the director's set. But if you see a safety issue you go to the ad, understand what people's positions are is really important too. You know, like you said about, like you said Dave, about the producer who is coming to you about schedule and ad stuff. It's like, Don't bother the director with stuff that's not his job. Like, I think it's this important thing to understand that once you're on set, there are jobs, and there are our departments, and there are guidelines, and respect them as much as you respect the crew, they'll respect you as a producer.

Dave Bullis 1:08:46
Yeah, that's very good advice. And you know, because respect is a two way street, right? So yeah, and I know people you know Can, can definitely tell when you know a producer has it together, and then they can also tell when a producer just doesn't give a shit. And they just, kind of, you know, and, I mean, I had real quick to, just to, sort of had this. I had a friend of mine. He went on a set one time, and the there was two producers who were on, just sitting on crates, just playing NBA Jam on their iPads. And he was like, What the hell he's like, they should be getting this to go. This is the first day of film, yeah, and they were just playing, and he said they, you could tell from the get go, there was not going to be good, a good production. Jenna, I know, yeah, it's at that. I honestly, I mean, I guess the The director just, basically, just at that point, just gave up,

Jenna Edwards 1:09:39
Yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:09:39
At the beginning, which this network.

Jenna Edwards 1:09:42
I know that we're almost out of time, but Can I comment on that really quick?

Dave Bullis 1:09:46
Sure.

Jenna Edwards 1:09:46
So here's the deal with what I was saying before about educating people on what producers do. Oftentimes, producers that are inexperienced think that making a movie is literally just me. Making the movie, meaning shooting, getting all the things ready for shooting and then post. But the reality is, a true producer, an indie producer, is somebody who can see the entire project from start to finish. And what that means is, you know, working backwards from distribution to marketing to PR to post to production, to pre production, to development, to funding, all of those areas are the producer's job, right? And so those two producers who are playing freaking MBA jam, like I'm all mad right now, like I would have literally went up to them and been like, are you serious? Do you have distribution for your movie yet? Do you have a marketing plan? Do you have the PR in place? What are you doing to make sure that this film doesn't just die once it's finished? That's the producer's job. So if you're ever on set and you've done a great job getting the set together and you think there's nothing left to do. There's so much more to do. So, you know, get out there and do it. Is basically my advice,

Dave Bullis 1:11:11
And that's very good advice. Jenna, Jenna, where people find you out online.

Jenna Edwards 1:11:16
Jennaedwardsmedia.com at Jenna Edwards on Twitter. Jenna Edwards, media on Facebook and Instagram.

Dave Bullis 1:11:26
Jenna Edwards, I want to say, thank you so much for coming on.

Jenna Edwards 1:11:28
Thank you so much for having me. This was really, really fun.

Dave Bullis 1:11:31
Yeah, it was. It was a total blast. And you know what? I'll have to have you back on some time. We can continue to talk about because, like, there's a lot of stuff we didn't, we didn't get we were, we went on these you know that. And that's, you know that. That's the sign of great conversation. So Jenna, I want to say thank you, and I wish you the best of luck.

Jenna Edwards 1:11:46
Ah, you too. We'll talk soon.

Dave Bullis 1:11:48
Talk to you soon Jenna.

Jenna Edwards 1:11:49
Okay, bye,

Dave Bullis 1:11:49
Bye, bye.

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BPS 471: Why Most Creators Never Finish Their Film (Hard Truth) with James Altucher

May 14, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome James Altucher, an entrepreneur, author, and creative thinker whose approach to idea generation and execution offers a surprisingly practical blueprint for filmmakers and screenwriters. While he’s not traditionally from the film industry, his insights cut directly into one of the biggest challenges creators face—how to consistently come up with ideas and actually turn them into something real.

One of the most striking takeaways from this conversation is the idea that creativity isn’t something you wait for—it’s something you train. Too many writers sit in front of a blank page hoping inspiration will strike, only to get stuck in overthinking, outlining, or self-doubt. James flips that completely. He argues that ideas are a muscle, and like any muscle, they weaken if you don’t use them. His solution is simple but powerful: come up with ten ideas a day, every day.

These ideas don’t have to be good. In fact, most of them won’t be.

That’s the point.

By forcing yourself to generate ideas consistently, you remove the pressure of perfection and replace it with momentum. Over time, patterns start to emerge. Your brain begins to connect concepts faster. And eventually, something clicks—a concept worth developing into a screenplay, a short film, or even a series. As James explains, the goal isn’t to get ten great ideas—it’s to build the ability to recognize one when it appears.

This approach directly applies to screenwriting. Many writers get stuck trying to outline the “perfect” story before writing a single page. But as discussed in the conversation, over-outlining can become a form of procrastination. It feels productive, but it delays the real work. The better approach is to start writing, let the story evolve, and refine it through drafts. The act of writing itself generates clarity.

There’s also a strong emphasis on execution over theory. It’s easy to read books, watch tutorials, and study structure, but none of that replaces actually making something. Whether it’s writing a script, shooting a short film, or creating a web series, the process of doing reveals far more than preparation ever could. James shares examples of creators who started with minimal resources—using basic cameras, simple setups, and limited budgets—and still managed to build something meaningful.

That idea connects closely with filmmaking. The barrier to entry has never been lower. With modern technology, anyone can shoot, edit, and distribute content. Yet many creators still hesitate, waiting for better equipment, more funding, or the “right moment.” In reality, those are just delays. The filmmakers who move forward are the ones who start with what they have and improve as they go.

Another key concept discussed is persistence. In the film industry, rejection is constant. Projects don’t get picked up. Scripts don’t sell. Shows don’t move forward. James shares his own experience pitching ideas, including projects that never made it to air despite initial interest. But instead of viewing those moments as failures, he treats them as redirections—opportunities to pivot and create something new.

“Persistence plus love equals accomplishment,” he explains.

That mindset is critical for screenwriters. A single script rarely defines a career. It’s the body of work that matters—the willingness to keep writing, keep improving, and keep putting ideas into the world. Each project becomes a stepping stone to the next.

There’s also an important discussion about feedback and growth. Improving as a writer requires interaction—with mentors, peers, and even audiences. James describes a system of learning that includes mentors (people ahead of you), peers (people at your level), and students (people you teach). This creates a feedback loop that accelerates improvement. For filmmakers, this could mean collaborating with other writers, sharing scripts, or even teaching what you’ve learned to others.

Ultimately, the conversation comes back to a simple but often overlooked truth: ideas are everywhere, but execution is rare.

You don’t need permission to start.

You don’t need perfect conditions.

You don’t need certainty.

You need to write. You need to create. You need to finish.

In the end, James Altucher offers a framework that strips away excuses and replaces them with action. For filmmakers and screenwriters, that shift—from thinking to doing—is where everything begins.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:48
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
My next guest is a multi number one Amazon bestseller and hosts one of the top podcasts in the world with guest James Altucher, Hey, James, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

James Altucher 2:07
Dave, thank you so much for asking me to come on the show. I'm really grateful.

Dave Bullis 2:12
You know, James, you've been a mentor of mine for years now, ever since I've heard of you, like around 2010 I think I heard of you around then for your article about how much of a scam college is. And by the way, when I read it, I was like, This guy's 100% right. And you know, from there, everything that you published, everything that you know, I have, all of your books, everything so and also, basically, you've been an indirect mentor for me this whole time.

James Altucher 2:38
Well, thanks very much, Dave. Yeah, that college article, I got a lot of backlash on and even lost friends over it, but, but I still believe it like you know, and now we're seeing the outcomes, which is that, you know, most people are graduating and taking jobs that don't even require a college degree, and you have people even like Google saying they're no longer looking at whether or Not someone has a college degree. So I think gradually, what used to be controversial is not being a legitimate discussion. So so I'm glad that's happening,

Dave Bullis 3:09
Yeah, because I actually knew a guy who was a head hunter for Google, and he said what they were doing now was they were looking at kids in high school, because with the you know, we're in the information age, so we said by the time they're in high school, they're most likely nine times out of 10, or maybe even 10 times out of 10. They're already online learning this stuff, and they already know what they're going to do. And some of these kids are geniuses at artificial intelligence. The other these other kids are geniuses at coding. And they don't need College because they already know at that age, they already know more than the most teachers do.

James Altucher 3:39
Well, the thing is, to college is teach, and this is not always the case. So I'm not I'm not throwing like 1000 colleges into one basket, but college is teaching kind of slightly older knowledge, like something that's already been put into a textbook. Now, normally that might be a good thing, because it's knowledge that's been studied and curated and thought about and experimented on and so on. But technology is changing so fast right now, and opportunities and innovations happening so fast, like I just saw a help wanted ad the other day for a self driving car engineer. In other words, an engineer who specializes in self driving cars. Well, there's no degree in college that teaches that, because self driving cars on the road didn't even exist a year ago. So things are just happening too fast, and what you need now is to develop skills, and not necessarily a paper certificate. And there are many, many ways to develop skills. College being one, maybe not even the best of them.

Dave Bullis 4:38
Yeah, which is another reason why I started this podcast was one I was inspired by, by you, and two, because this is basically like a film school, you know, each week. You know, the way I always tell people to think of this podcast is each week, it's like having a different instructor come in and, you know, I'm always the same, but you know, I'm always talking to a new person who's actually out there doing stuff. Off, who's, you know, like yourself, who's worked at HBO, like other people, who's closed come in and they've done their own indie films, or other people who've caused come in and like they, I had Alex daniellaris on here, who wrote Birdman. He won an Academy Award. So it's like, yeah, so that's a great get. I actually reached out to him through Facebook, and I we had a couple mutual friends. And I said, Trust me, I'm not, I'm not crazy or anything. And he got to talking, and he said, Yeah, and I've had, you know, I've had the writer of John Wick on here. I've had, I've had so many great guests on here, James, I've been so very fortunate, but that that I want this to be like a offshoot free Film School for people

James Altucher 5:41
That is so great. Are you, I don't even know. Are you heavily involved in in film, like, is that a passion of yours?

Dave Bullis 5:48
Oh yes, I am. I love writing, and so I'm real big into screenwriting. And then I also like doing filmmaking as well.

James Altucher 5:54
Have you worked in any screenplays?

Dave Bullis 5:58
Oh yes, I have actually.

James Altucher 6:00
Like screenplays that, like that, were produced, or are you working on one and trying to get it bought? Or what's your what's your goal?

Dave Bullis 6:08
Well, I've actually done both. So, so as far as screenplay is getting produced, I've produced everything that, anything that I wanted to do. I sort of produced, for instance, in 2010 actually, I actually wrote and directed and produced my own TV pilot I got to. I was the first person to shoot at this brand new sound stage here in Philly, right after me, the production that came in was After Earth with Will Smith and M Night Shyamalan. So I took this TV pilot we got to, I pitched it to NBC, and then I pitched it to G for right before they closed, and the guys at chief for were like, This is amazing. This is exactly what we would have bought and had on this had on this network, but we're where we're going out of business, so unfortunately, we can't buy anything.

James Altucher 6:49
But still, you know, that's great, because you keep doing stuff like that, and persistence wins. Persistence plus love equals accomplishment. Is what I always feel,

Dave Bullis 7:00
Yeah, and again. So I always read your blogs, and you know, especially about writing and creativity. But you know, actually, James, I wanted to ask a lot about your background. And you know, again, I touched on it briefly about HBO. But you know, how did you find, you know, as you were sort of, you got out of college, I think you went to Yale, I think, and

James Altucher 7:17
I went to Cornell.

Dave Bullis 7:19
Oh, Cornell, I'm sorry. And so after you got out of college, you landed a job at HBO in their IT department. So how did you land a job there?

James Altucher 7:27
Well, I was thrown out of school. Actually, I was studying artificial intelligence. And even back then, in the early 90s, I was studying virtual reality, and I pitched HBO on this idea that I wanted them to fund about about kind of virtual reality and storytelling and virtual reality. And they said, No, it's a little not advanced enough for us, because back then, you know, VR was, was not like it is today. And but they said, anytime you want come to come work for us, you know, leave, leave the academic world, and come work for us. And so I didn't think I was qualified enough. I felt like, oh, I need to, like, write a novel or something before I'm cool enough to work at HBO. Like, I loved HBO. I loved all the shows on HBO, everything. And it took two years before I, so to speak, chose myself and said, You know what, I don't need to write a novel. I'm good enough to work at HBO. They already asked me two years ago, and so I started working there about two years later.

Dave Bullis 8:38
And you so where did you actually pitch them the idea for your TV show, which I think is brilliant, by the way, 3am the TV show is called 3am for those of you who don't know. And James, basically would go around outside and talk to people at 3am in the morning. So James, how did you actually end up pitching that show to them?

James Altucher 8:55
Well, what happened was, I, I started first off, they didn't realize they needed a website. Like this was back in 1994 1995 nobody knew. No corporations realized at that time that they actually needed a website because the web was relatively young and not that many people were on it. And I convinced them they needed a website, and that's a whole story, because at first they really resisted, and then I was in charge of creating their website. So I went up to the CEO, who's now the CEO of time, Warner, and I said, Look, HBO is really great at original TV programming. This is how HBO was making their their brand. And you know, HBO was the first to do this. Now, everybody's doing this now, even, you know, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, you know, Hulu, they're all doing original TV programming, but at the time, HBO was the only company in the world doing original programming other than the kind of the broadcast stations like ABC, NBC and CBS. So, so I said, You're so good at original TV programming, why don't we do original web programming? Because the web might end up being a bigger medium than television, which is, of course, is what ended up happening. And so they said, Sure, just do whatever you want. We don't even care. And so I started doing this original web series called 3am which was, I was always curious, what are people up to at three in the morning in New York City? What? What are, you know? And of course, they're up to nothing good, particularly on like, not like on a Saturday night, where everybody's sort of out going to a party or whatever, but like on a Wednesday night, if you're out at three in the morning, you're you're up to something, and it's probably not good. So I would go out this like this for three years. I would go out and just interview, essentially, prostitutes, drug dealers, homeless people, criminals, anybody I could find at three in the morning on a Wednesday night. And then I would transcribe the interviews, design around them, and put up four interviews a week that I did from like 1996 through 1998 and then eventually, during this I pitched Sheila Nevins, who was the head of documentaries and family programming for uh HBO. I pitched her on the idea of doing it as a TV show. She said, Sure, let's do it. She gave me money to shoot a pilot. I shot a pilot. It was about 45 minutes, and then ultimately, she didn't, she didn't air it, even though I was still doing the the web series for HBO and I continued doing it, she didn't air the pilot because, she said, and you know, mind you, this is the head of HBO family programming department. She said, You know, for a show like this, we either need to see you catching footage of someone fucking their mother, or we need to see your neighbors fucking and so, so it didn't air, but, but it was fun doing it. And, you know, I pitched other shows to HBO as well. And as you know, you have to pitch like lots of shows to get one going, and everyone is all happy and loves you for a long time, and then you realize they're just saying that, and you have to keep going, and it's persistence. But ultimately, rather than continuing pitching TV shows, I ended up starting a business creating websites for entertainment companies, which was kind of more my skill set.

Dave Bullis 12:28
So, you know, James, it's funny, because, you know, with TV the way it is right now, I think a show like 3am would be a hit. I really do. Because, you know, everybody, every network now, every time I talk to an agent, a manager, etc, they're all looking for TV pilots over everything else.

James Altucher 12:46
Yeah, I think there's so much opportunity out there in TV right now that it's almost like it's crazy, like there's so much original programming, and then there's so many reality shows, and there's so many channels for reality shows. It's, I think we're in a whole new world now for for quality TV.

Dave Bullis 13:06
Oh, absolutely, you know. I mean, Game of Thrones is amazing. Again, another HBO show. Everyone tells me to watch Westworld. I haven't watched that yet.

James Altucher 13:14
West world is a great example. A, it's an HBO show, and not to go on about HBO, but B, I just noticed that, you know, Charles Yu who's a great science fiction author, is a story editor on West world. And Ed Brubaker, who has been one of my favorite comic book writers for 20 years, he actually wrote an episode of Westworld. So it kind of shows you that all the talent, all the best talent in the world from other media are moving towards TV. It's why you see like, you know, Kevin Spacey, stars in Westworld. Or Woody Allen does an Amazon sorry, stars in House of Cards. Or Woody Allen does an Amazon show. Or Brian Koppelman, who wrote Rounders in oceans 13, he's doing the TV show billions. So all the all this great TV talent is also moving into the movie space, like Stranger Things has Winona Ryder and Matthew Modine, two movie stars being a star on a, you know, 10 episode TV show on Netflix, yeah.

Dave Bullis 14:17
And Netflix also, I mean, that's another opportunity, you know, as we talk about opportunities, you know, you know, anytime I talk about my TV pilot, people always say, Well, have you tried Netflix? Have you tried Hulu? Have you tried Amazon? And I always say, I haven't tried those, those avenues, yet, because I want to have even more stuff to pitch. Because, like you, like you just said, James, you have to have a ton of ideas to pitch, and they'll probably take one at you know, at most,

James Altucher 14:43
Yeah, and you know, Netflix is a company that's committed six and a half billion dollars to buy original programming that dwarfs every other company like including HBO. One thing I want to add but one more last thing about. HBO. That's very interesting is that, if you look at all these companies that are doing original programming, starting from the very first one after HBO Showtime, but then moving to, you know, Bravo, and now Netflix, Amazon and so on, there's always someone from HBO who who who originally worked at HBO, who is involved in the original program, and all these other networks and websites and channels and everything, I think, you know, you have these, like, hotbeds of people. Say you're the average of the people you spend your most time with. And you have these hotbeds of talent, and they, they create, you know, essentially the people and the talent that gets spread out to create entire industries. That's why you see things like the Homebrew club of the 1970s who came out of that, Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, the founder of, you know, Osborne computer compact, like all these, like founders of the original computer companies came out of this one little, kind of nerdy club in San Francisco that spawned all this talent. So whatever it is that you're interested in and passionate about, you kind of have to find, you know where that that homebrew club is, and basically spend time with those people and you'll rise up with them. I was talking to a guy yesterday who is an astronaut. He flew in the space shuttle twice. And he was talking about how, 20 years earlier, you know, there were 10 people in his lab at MIT. He was a he was a student. There. Three of them became astronauts. And so again, if he was just hanging out of some random bar. You could never say three of these people at this bar became, you know, flew in outer space, but he found the place where he wanted to be an astronaut, and he found the place where these were the where all the future astronauts were,

Dave Bullis 16:53
Yeah, you know, we talked about spending, you know, you're the average of all the people you spend time with. You know, that's why, also about podcasting. You know, you get to spend time with all these, you know, different. You know, different people. Because, you know, again, you spend a lot of time with Brian Kopelman, and every time, you know, I was actually just listening to the interview you did with him. And you know, you two together are amazing, because it's always about creativity and writing, and it's always, you know, about, you know, discovering new things, always pushing boundaries with yourself, you know. And again, I think that's just amazing. That's another sort of avenue that podcast actually helps people with, is this sort of discovering those new ideas and finding out, you know, maybe I should, you know, spend time with people who like this instead of the one I am right now.

James Altucher 17:36
Yeah, you know, it's, it's so important, like, all you know, this is where, like, it's so important to say no to all the things that aren't good for you. Like to really, you know, each person has to blaze their own path, and that path is kind of carved out with your yeses. But if you say too many yeses, if you don't say the right yes, then you won't find the people you need. You won't find the places you need. You don't you won't find the knowledge you need. And it's very unique to you to choose to, I hate to say the phrase choose yourself over and over here. It's very unique to you to basically choose the right things that are good for you when so many other people need other things from you, like, Dave, do this. Dave, do that. Dave, why are you wasting your time doing this? Everyone's got their opinion on what Dave should do, but you've got to carve out what Dave should do.

Dave Bullis 18:28
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right. And you know, I want to talk about, choose yourself too. I again, that is a phenomenal name for a book. And on episode 99 of this podcast, I had on Morgan. J Freeman, Morgan has an amazing story, absolutely amazing. And basically, to give you a concise, sort of a version of it, James, he basically, he won Sundance. He was, he was an award winning Sundance director, and he partied it all away. And he ends up now, now he's working for MTV. He's been very, very, you know, open about it, but he had a phrase called green light yourself. And he said, if you have a film project that you want to do, and he said, You, no matter what it is, he goes, Don't ask anybody for permission. Green light yourself and just go do the thing. And it reminds me a lot of of, choose yourself, you know, give yourself permission to succeed. Give yourself permission to do these things.

James Altucher 19:19
Well, I'll get I'll give you two examples. One time, a friend of mine who was very familiar with YouTube. He worked for a YouTube advertising network, so he literally was behind the making of millions for many YouTubers. He was telling me he wants to create his own YouTube channel. And I said, well, and he had all these great ideas. And he said, Well, what's stopping you? And he said, Well, I don't have the camera equipment yet. And he said, I'm saving up for it. And and I picked up his iPhone, and I said, What are you talking about? This? The video camera in his iPhone is is much better than cameras from 1520, years ago. The entire movies were shot on so, you know, that's just an excuse. Like, just use this camera like you take Michelle Phan, who now has a $30 million you know, cosmetics company. She started making YouTube videos. Her first 64 videos were horrible, and then she did one video that went viral, and using the ads off that she she's finally bought some decent camera equipment, is and has now built an empire. You kind of just have to go out and do like our comfort zone is papered by completely papered layer six layers deep by our excuses. And you kind of have to just punch through that and just punch through that and just start doing, you know, the the, the other example I have is a well known one, Robert Rodriguez, with L mariachi. I'm sure you know the movie. He shot it with just eight, an $8,000 budget. And what he did was he made a list of and it's like famously called now the Robert Rodriguez list. He made a list of just all the things he had access to, like his brother, his cousin's brother's trailer, his fire hose is whatever. And, you know, just with all he said, I'm gonna make a movie using all these things. And he made a movie on a tiny budget, and then it became, it made him millions of dollars, and it became this huge hit, and won prizes at Sundance and everything. And now he's, like, a well known director and writer.

Dave Bullis 21:31
Yeah, when I was making my own student film, I didn't go to college for film, I went for business. And so, you know, while I was making going to college for business, I was, you know, making movies and stuff. And I made a movie. And the one thing that I made, I made it with one, a $99 digital camcorder that, at the time, was, like, amazing. And this was back in around 2008 I believe, or two, yeah, 2008 and I had the book, Rebel Without a crew, by Robert Rodriguez, because he talks about making El Mariachi and yo, yeah, it's absolutely phenomenal book. Absolutely phenomenal because you can't beat that empirical, you know, discussion, because, you know, it's all nothing, no theory whatsoever. There's no theory. It's all about. This is exactly what I did. This is the nuts and bolts. And the other book was make your own damn movie by Lloyd Kaufman. And it was just those two books together taught me more than I I mean, I couldn't imagine a better film school than those two books. But hopefully this podcast is a good film school as well. But, but, you know, but, yeah, I agree. Man, Agree. Agree. James, it's just going out there and making something for even, like, like the duplex brothers even say, you know, make a movie for 100 bucks this weekend, a short film for 100 bucks, you're not wasting a ton of money, and it teaches you how to actually make a film before you start getting those bigger budgets and you so we don't make all these expensive mistakes.

James Altucher 22:54
That's amazing. I didn't know that about the Duplass brothers. They're kind of intriguing me more and more because, I mean, I forget the name of which brother, but I see him in TV shows all the time, and he's just, he's just really funny and brilliant, but, but then I realized they were, they were actually making shows and movies. What were some, what's some stuff that they've made recently that I've liked, I forget.

Dave Bullis 23:17
Well, the one I think you're referring to, I think, was Jay. He's been on the league, you know.

James Altucher 23:23
The league and Mindy,

Dave Bullis 23:24
Yes. And they actually have, I think they have a deal with Netflix. I might be mistaken, but there's actually two movies that they've made for Netflix. One is kind of like a time travel movie, basically, they sort of go to this, like cottage, and then there's a guest house in the back, you they and whenever they go into this guest house, they they get the optimal idea of their, of their spouse. So, so it's, it's, I think it's J or mark is the, is the, is the husband, and I forget who his wife is. But whenever they go into this guest house by themselves, they see the optimal version of their of their spouse. So they're now with, kind of plays out which, which one do you want more? And there was another one. I forget the name of it, but, but they play a version of a psychopath who lures people, you know, off the internet, and then they sort of, you know, he sort of tells them, you know, makes stuff up. And then, you know, this person is trying to sort of figure out, you know what's true and what's not, it's really good, but, but, yeah, there are absolutely phenomenal and if you could ever give him for the podcast, James, I'm sure they would be phenomenal guests.

James Altucher 24:28
Oh yeah, and they did togetherness on HBO, which I really liked.

Dave Bullis 24:33
Oh yeah, togetherness. That's right, I forgot all about that show. I actually haven't seen that.

James Altucher 24:38
That was a great show. I loved it.

Dave Bullis 24:40
Yeah, I haven't seen that yet. It's again, it's on my list of things to watch. Because I, when I when it got canceled, everyone said how great it was. And I was like, we know what odds a list of things to watch,

James Altucher 24:50
You know, but that's such an interesting thing that so, yeah, it got canceled. And by the way, it got it had Amanda Pete, it had had some guy. I was a famous actor. I forget his name, and had the duplex brothers who have been so successful, and yet it's still still network executives cancel things. So it's almost like it's like, it's like a case study, and how you can't be disappointed. You have to do what you can. You have to keep pushing forward. Can't give up. Louis CK is a great example. He had lucky Louie on HBO. He had other sitcoms, you know, that was canceled. He had other sitcoms canceled. And then finally, he has this little, tiny TV show on FX, which becomes this huge, huge hit for him. No one would have guessed. They didn't even they barely wanted him to do the show. They gave him the lowest budget possible. Came this huge hit after so many cancelations, after so many disappointments. I mean, he made a movie that was just the worst movie in history, according to the reviewers, and he never gave up. And now, I mean, I just watched him live in Madison Square Garden. He sold out Madison Square Garden five times this year, and just a phenomenal exhibition of what persistence can do.

Dave Bullis 26:05
And so, you know, James as we, you know, we talk about persistence, you know, I there was an interview you did for your podcast, the James Altucher show, and you had on a guest, and I think it was, I forget his name, but, but you were talking about tight feedback loops, and you were talking about, you know, this is how you get better. Was basically, you know, a mentor would help you out with this, but because they're already doing that tight feedback loop, and you know exactly where you're going wrong, you know exactly where you're going right, and you can, sort of, you know, break this out, sort of like a big puzzle, like, you know, okay, I'm terrible at this, so I should get better, and I slowly build it up. There was a, there's a book. Forget the guy by John waits in, I think his name is, but in the art of learning, yeah, yeah. And he had a really great analogy, because, again, you're a big chess guy, where he would start off with just the king, and then he had, you know, then, then his, his mentor, would say, Okay, now you're going to use a king and a bishop and then a king and a rook and etc, etc, so he could focus and not get lost in the chaos. So what I'm trying to say with all this is, do you think that you know Louis CK and all these people like Brian compliment too? Do you think that they always had a tight feedback loop, and they always were just sort of not, not just trying to work harder, but they were also trying to work smarter, too, if you know what I mean.

James Altucher 27:21
Absolutely. So, so let me go down two different angles with this. So one is, and I write about this, and so I write about all these people in my book reinvent yourself, which is coming out January, that about, essentially how we're all in a constant state of reinvention. And, you know, we all need, we're all trying to get to the next level of creativity. We're all trying to kind of move forwards and figure out, what does it mean for our lives to have meaning and so on. So, but I talk about this concept of plus equal minus. So you want to find a plus which is both a real and virtual mentor. So like in Josh, wait since case he mentions how he had a mentor, he had a chess professional teaching him, then you want to find your equals, so people you could play, who are roughly your level, or people who could challenge you, whether, no matter what your career is, who are roughly your level, who challenge you back and forwards. And that's how you get feedback, is you get, you know, challenged by your equals, and then your mentor can kind of analyze how you responded to it, and then a minus. So someone you can teach, and because that solidifies learning, and also, the people you're teaching will challenge you to they'll ask you questions that you don't necessarily know the right answer to. So plus minus equal. And you know, in in chess is a great example, or tennis, or any sport like let's just take tennis. You know you're playing against an equal, and let's say your serve, it doesn't go well for five serves in a row. Well, your mentor can tell you what you're doing wrong. And then, of course, when you're teaching a serve, you'll understand much better the mechanics of what a serve is as you're teaching and so that's a great example where plus minus equal will make you a best a better tennis player?

Dave Bullis 29:02
Yeah, and it's one another thing that I found out too, is there was a book I was reading where they were talking about the discussion the point of the psychology of small wins. So you build up momentum and confidence, because what you're doing is even these tiny little victories, you sort of string them together, and now suddenly you feel you're feeling better, and your confidence and your skill is doing a lot more than say, if you just try to tackle this problem all at once, you know you so when you break it down and you you're winning those little mini battles, it does a lot more for your confidence.

James Altucher 29:37
Yeah. I mean, I think the book you're referring to is Little Bets by Peter Sims, and in there he discusses Chris. The very first chapter is Chris Rock will build up a new act, you know, he'll spend, like, a year creating an act that he'll then, you know, eventually be an HBO special. But he doesn't just sort of like write that act and then, you know, risk everything in one HBO special, he'll go to the Laugh Factory in New Brunswick, and he'll have just like notes on the napkin. He'll read straight off the napkin. He won't even do his whole kind of Chris Rock thing. He'll just sort of read straight off his napkin. And if it gets a few chuckles, he'll note the one the jokes that got some chuckles, and he'll start working on them and crafting an act around them. He'll really kind of test stuff out with these little bets, these little experiments.

Dave Bullis 30:34
Yeah, and I think that's what you know again, when we're talking about reinventing ourselves and also with writing. So I want to talk to you about, you know, your writing, and you know that's something that we sort of these little, these little changes, you know what I mean, like these little, these little things that can make you have more confidence and make you and sort of let you also propel you forward with that momentum. Because, you know, sometimes when people are outlining something or staring at that blank page, they sort of freeze up, or they, or they start writing. And, I mean, we've all been there, James, you start writing, and you go, Oh God, this is, this is just terrible. This sucks. Who the hell is going to want to read this stuff? And then you just sort of throw it away, and you keep starting this process over and over again. But I think if you you know, our perception of how we write is also a big, a big factor in this, which again, comes from changing our perception. So we're allowed to, actually, you know, have these small wins.

James Altucher 31:25
Yeah, no, I agree. And look, writing, writing is a very good way for me to find these small wins. I write every single day. I've been writing every single day for 25 years, and much of that time I've been publishing every single day. And look, when you not every, not every writer does that, by the way, but, but I do. And when you publish every single day, you have a chance to see, oh, do people like this? Do people not like that? And that doesn't necessarily make you a better writer. Like it's not always like you're catering to public opinion, but you know, you just use it as one component among many, on the feedback you're getting to your writing.

Dave Bullis 32:04
So as we talk about, you know, your writing, James, so what does you have the same routine every morning? Meaning, like you get up at a certain time, then you sort of, you know, you're gonna have a cup of coffee and start writing. Or is every day sort of different for you?

James Altucher 32:16
I think, I think most days, or, let's say, more than 50% of the days are, I wake up, I have coffee, I read, I write, I always read before I write, but, but, you know, some days are different, and I don't like to have any one routine, because it's important to mix things up so that, you know, basically a soup with just hot water, and it is kind of boring. You have to have lots of different ingredients. So I like to have lots of different ingredients in my day and and if you just eat the same ingredients every day, you'll get bored so, and you'll even forget that you're eating your taste buds won't congratulate you anymore. So, so you want to have different ingredients make up every each day, so that you know your creativity as that is at its heights. Now, other people do the exact same thing every single morning in order to keep doing things, but I don't like to do that. It's sort of like if you drive the same route every day, sometimes you get to the destination and you can't even remember how you got there. You can't even remember driving because you were sort of daydreaming the whole way. If you do something different, if you don't commoditize kind of, your your your habits, that you do your or your routine, then you'll, you'll be much more aware of everything that's happening around you. And I think that's very important.

Dave Bullis 33:36
So James, what is your writing? You know, method look like? I mean, do you sort of outline exactly every article? I mean, I imagine you have to outline every book. But, I mean, when you're writing sort of, you know, articles, do you outline what exactly it's going to be, and you just sort of try to get it out as fast as you can.

James Altucher 33:53
No, I don't necessarily outline. I mean, sometimes there's a rough outline, like, let's say I interview Barack Obama or whoever, and I'll say 10 Things Barack Obama told me. So that's kind of makes up a rough sketch of things. But then storytelling, I don't really outline so much. Like, I just let that kind of come out. Like, I'll, I'll kind of just start with the first line, like, you know, and then this was the time I stole money from my mother, and I'll just let the star story kind of unravel itself from there.

Dave Bullis 34:26
Yeah, you know, one thing I've learned is that if you do think too much, and you do, you know, outline too much, it's a way of you think you're doing something, but it's just a way of it, but it really just keeping you busy, and you're not actually getting anywhere, you know what I mean, and you just sort of keep, you know, outlining, going back, revising the outline, and then you're on a third version of the outline, but you're never actually doing anything. It's so important. I realized just even this year, how important to actually just just thrusting yourself into the work, you know, if it's a screenplay, open up final draft or fade in and just start writing it. And. And sort of letting it fall as it may, if you know what I mean, James,

James Altucher 35:03
Yeah, you have to just keep doing that's the important thing.

Dave Bullis 35:08
Yeah, it's, you know, I was reading Ryan Holiday's book about the obstacle is the way. And, you know, one of, one of some of the things that he was saying in there were just really amazing about how the obstacle is really the way. Your perception of the obstacle is very key, because if you view it as a way to gain A further advantage, it doesn't look like an obstacle anymore. And the impediment to action leads to more action itself, like Marcus Aurelius said, and again, just changing that small perception has such a huge advantage as you're trying to sort of do do your work, whether it be writing or solving an IT problem, or, you know, building a website or what have you. I mean, you can just see how that sort of ties in through everyday life.

James Altucher 35:51
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I had, I all of us have obstacles all the time and what we want to do so, so, you know, one that I spoke about earlier was, you know, HBO rejected a couple of TV show ideas I had, even when they had expressed interest. Okay, no problem. That's when I sort of said, you know, you always have to say, well, in what way will this work out the best for me? And what I ended up doing was starting a company rather than doing a TV show. You know another thing, you know, sometimes you have arguments with partners, and you could, um, you can, like, if a partner turns out to be not so good for you, there's no point in, like, explaining to him how he or she is wrong or no good for you anymore. You what you do is you end up finding another partner to buy out the old partner, or you end up starting a new business like that. What I tend to do is, I tend to lean into the problem and say, Okay, this is a problem or an obstacle. How can this work? Rather than trying to fight the obstacle, how can this work out the best for me in some other alternative way.

Dave Bullis 36:56
And you know, this sort of ties in also because, you know, in choose yourself as we sort of go back to that book, which I'm going to link to in the show notes everybody, because that book is absolutely phenomenal. You know, you talk about making an idealist, and that really pushes the boundaries of your creativity. So whatever you know, your idealist, the subject is going to be, you know, making these 10 ideas makes you sort of broaden your horizon, broaden your perspective. So, you know, in fact, James, do you want to, you know, maybe just talk about idealists. Just for those of you, for those out there who've never, maybe read, choose yourself. You know, I think it's, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to say because, but, I mean, you're the, you're the man who created this. And I just wanted to ask you, do you want to talk about idealist for a little bit?

James Altucher 37:39
Yeah. I mean, it kind of came out of a time when I was just had no ideas and no creativity, and I was dead broke, and I needed to, I had two kids, and I needed to make something of my life, or at least make sure I didn't go broke and die like I was kind of suicidal, like I was spending tons of money, and I had already had sold a company, but then, like, blew all the money and gone broke, and I just needed to try things but, but everything I was trying was just failing, and it's because I wasn't having any good ideas. And I realized, you know what, my creativity right now is pretty weak, like I'm not doing anything to improve my creativity. And the creativity muscle, or the idea muscle, is just like any other muscle really, like, if you don't walk for two or three weeks, like, let's say you were in a coma for some reason, and you were in bed for two weeks, you actually need physical therapy to walk again because your leg muscles atrophy so quickly. So it's the same thing with the idea muscle. And so what I do to exercise the idea muscle is I'll write down 10 ideas a day. And doesn't have to be good ideas. In fact, you can't, they can't be good ideas. Most of your ideas are really bad. You can't come up with 3650 good ideas a year. And so I'll come up with all sorts of ideas, like I don't know, ideas of where I'm going to take my kids over a Christmas vacation that they've never been before, or ideas for businesses I could start, or ideas for virtual realities I'd create, or ideas for Airbnb to be a better company, or ideas for Uber to be a better company. And I'll just come up with ideas for other people. Ideas for Dave bulls, guess I could introduce him to for his podcast. You know, I'll just come up with ideas for anything. And then gradually, what happens is, and I noticed this very quickly, between three and six months, you'll start to really feel like an idea machine. And it just keeps getting better and better until your creativity is at an enormous height compared to where you were before, and maybe even compared to other people. And it just really works. It works for anything like, like, if I want to meet somebody, I'll come up with 10 ideas for them. And invariably, there might be, if I do enough research and work, there'll be one, at least one good idea for that person. And eventually I'll be able to arrange a meeting, or, you know, I run a business. So if I'm coming up with 10 ideas for my business, invariably, there's a good idea in there that will make my business more money. And so, you know, this is a very important topic, to improve creativity, improve your idea ability, improve your ability to make money, improve your ability to network and help other people make money and so on.

Dave Bullis 40:40
You know, one thing I did with the idealist James was I would share it on my Instagram particularly. And what I started doing was, for a whole week, I was coming up with 10 different movie concepts and just, well, thank you, James and I tagged you a couple of times. And some of them I stopped, because I was, like, James, pissed off. Like, thank you, bullets, tagging me again. So what I did was

James Altucher 41:02
Pissed off about that.

Dave Bullis 41:04
I so, like, when people were responding to it, they were like, Hey, where are you, you know, why are you doing this? Where did you get this from? And I would always say, you know, buy, choose yourself. It's 99 cents on Amazon, you know. And I would say, you know, for the Kindle version. And I would just say, you know, the, you know, these are concepts that I would any the best ones, I would actually turn into a log line. And then from the log lines, the best log lines, see what I would do in terms of actually making a screenplay. Well, there was one I came up with that I actually really, really liked, and I ended up turning that into a screenplay. And I'm gonna go back, and it definitely needs a couple more drafts, but I was blown away that it just came out of almost, almost nowhere, because I was just writing, writing, writing, trying to be, you know, keep my brain out of as much as possible, and just focus on the subconscious and let that flow, you know, that flow state that writers always talk about, and just getting there and making it seem that, you know, where you can actually just keep writing without actually thinking. It's kind of like what Ray Bradbury says, Don't think while you're writing, feel while you're writing.

James Altucher 42:06
So what's the screenplay about?

Dave Bullis 42:09
It's a story about five kids who are trapped in a tree house and with a monster down at the base of the sort of this tree house, so they can't get out. And they're basically stuck during the snowstorm in this tree house with this sort of unseen monster, creature force down there that's sort of stalking this tree house.

James Altucher 42:29
That's neat. And what are you gonna do with it?

Dave Bullis 42:32
Well, once I polish up the drafts, I'm actually gonna send it out to a few contests, and if it never goes anywhere, then I would probably end up shooting it myself.

James Altucher 42:42
Cool. That sounds great.

Dave Bullis 42:44
And, you know, I actually want to ask you, too, James, you know, as we talk about, you know, you know, creativity and writing, is there any sort of, you know, film ideas or TV ideas that you have right now that you're that you wanted to, you know, either talk about or even just that you maybe are going to pitch at some point, or maybe there's just ideas floating in your head for for different movies and shows.

James Altucher 43:03
You know, it's funny. There was a recent article about me in the New York Times, and it kind of went into what I about my minimalism philosophy. And afterwards, a couple of television companies called me some really big, well known ones that you would know of, and asked me for ideas, but I'm not sure I really want to put in the hard work for a TV show. Like, right now, my podcast has a very big audience, and so I almost say it's like my podcast audience is the same as, like a bad cable TV show audience, in the sense that, in terms of the numbers and which is good. It's growing. You know, I feel that podcast audience is growing, so it's only going to continue to grow. And I've really decided I'm going to, I'm going to double down on on the podcast and focus on making that as good as it could possibly be, although I am working on fiction right now,

Dave Bullis 43:57
You know, what if you, here's just an idea, what if you actually started like a podcast, sort of series, almost like serial was where they had sort of like a pot, it's almost like an old timey radio show. And basically, you know, it's a radio play, you know. And I've thought of the thought of this myself, you know, if you ever have an idea that's more like an like, like, that's more suited towards audio, you know, podcasting is a great way to release it. Because, again, no, there's no more gatekeepers or buyers to entry.

James Altucher 44:24
Yeah, no, I've been thinking of exactly that like so in addition to doing the interview show, which I always do, and I always, and I won't stop, and I love interviewing, you know, people and everything doing kind of like mini series, alongside of it, within the same show, within the context of the James Altucher Show.

Dave Bullis 44:45
Yeah, and your podcast numbers, by the way. I mean you probably get, you know, 100 times what I get. But I mean, your podcast is one of the best podcasts out there, the questions you ask and the guests that you get. I mean that. It's important because it's not just about the guests you get. It's also the questions and what you're talking about. I've always learned something every episode of your of your podcast.

James Altucher 45:07
Well, you know, and as you know, it's really not I mean, look, guests are having kind of guests that people recognize is part of it, because then you know that that helps with downloads. But ultimately, you have to bring the job home with with the questions and the preparation, as you know, and everything, and that's what really drives the podcast.

Dave Bullis 45:29
Yes, absolutely. And James, I don't want to take up too much your time. I know you're extremely busy. I had some Twitter

James Altucher 45:34
Enjoying this. Thank you so much, David for having me on.

Dave Bullis 45:41
Oh, you know, I appreciate you coming on, James. I really do. And I, you know, I had some Twitter questions come in. Do you mind answering a few questions?

James Altucher 45:48
Sure.

Dave Bullis 45:49
So the first question comes from Martin Tiller, and Martin wants to know, how long have you been doing the 10 ideas a day,

James Altucher 45:56
Since 2002

Dave Bullis 45:59
And this kind of ties in what we were just talking about. It's Martin. Again. He wants the question is, how much time do you put into researching your guests for the podcast?

James Altucher 46:09
Oh, my God, I put in so much time like you know. So last week was Steven Pressfield, was on my podcast. I probably read, I read 10, or no, maybe 11 books by him 11, and took notes on each one, came up with questions about each one. Watched two interviews he did, one with Oprah and one with Marie Forleo. I tried to find other interviews he did, but he doesn't really do many interviews, not in the past, like five years and you know, I watched the movie The Legend of Bagger Vance, which he wasn't as involved in, but I still wanted to watch it. I've done. I read more about the history of, you know, the 300 which he writes about in the novel Gates of Fire. I mean, I probably prepared maybe 40 or 50 or hours for that, for, you know, one or two hour interview. And I flew to, I live in New York City, but I flew to LA and drove to Malibu to interview him, and because I wanted to do it in person, because I admire so much his books and but that's like an example of what, of what I do. I'm preparing an interview right now with somebody who's an expert in nutrition that I really admire. And, you know, he lives in a SouthWestern State, and I'm planning on flying to visit him, doing a ton of research, and I just, I put my all into into these things.

Dave Bullis 47:42
Yeah, I know what you mean about Steven Pressfield not wanting to do or doesn't do a lot of interviews. I've actually tried to get him a lot to come on this podcast, and each time he politely declines. But like, you know, The War of Art is an absolute essential read if you're going to be an artist, no matter if you're gonna write, paint, make movies, whatever the Art of War is required reading.

James Altucher 48:06
Yeah, no. War of Art and its companion piece, turning pro are just brilliant, like they're very good. And you know, his novel, Legend of backer Vance is very good. Gate spire is very good. And then he has a new novel, which is kind of almost a fictional version of The War of Art, which is called the knowledge, which is about what he was going through to battle his own resistance in the 1970s and it's a great book. So, you know, he's very interesting. He's very a big inspiration for writers and creatives.

Dave Bullis 48:37
Yeah, absolutely. I actually had his editor on Sean coin. And it's funny, because I actually won. Do you know who Robert McKee is? Yeah, yeah, of course, wrote dialog and story, story, yeah. So I actually won first place in a writing competition that he had, and I got to and one of my my prize was to go to New York to take his his four or three day seminar story, and it's basically the whole book. And it's funny because Sean coin is also his editor. So when I went up afterwards, as the seminar ended, I said, you know, Hi Bob. You know, we have a mutual friend, Sean coin. And, and he goes, Oh, well, how about that, you know? And, but I wanted to bring McKee up, because I think he'd be a great guest on your podcast, James,

James Altucher 49:23
Yeah, I think he would be also, like, you know, I'm interested in him. He's, he's a fascinating guy.

Dave Bullis 49:30
Yeah, absolutely fascinating. The story seminar was actually really good. I actually what I learned, what I learned, I learned about the principles of of story and again, you know, what I did was I made a deal with myself. You know, I realized you have to sort of make deals with yourself sometimes. And my whole thing was, I bought a whole pack of pens brand new, my favorite pen in the world, the pilot V sevens. And I just everything he said I wrote. I would not stop writing for anything. So even if I already knew it doesn't matter, you just keep writing. And by the end, I had so many notes that I could now go back and dissect story, and I could also, I found supplementary notes. Even before I went to the seminar in New York James, I actually listened to every podcast, every video interview he did. Found any crib notes I could of the actual seminar, and I put them all together in this sort of like big binder slash file. That way. I was so prepared for this that, you know, I was hoping to come out and just be, you know, an absolute genius a story by the end of it. And, and were you, um, yeah, I actually, I would say that I definitely had more confidence in myself going out.

James Altucher 50:56
What would like help me out? Like, what would be like the main thing that you learn like, what's what makes a great story? Telling the truth, what does that mean? Be specific.

Dave Bullis 51:08
So telling the truth, it doesn't mean the facts of what happened. It's the why of why they happened. And when you get down even deeper than that, there's two things that you have to focus on, the philosophers of the world either thought that you were being or becoming. So basically, they thought that everything is in constant flux, or everything is not in flux. It's just always the same. It just appears that it's in flux. And he talked about all the philosophers throughout time, what side they stood on, either being or becoming, being or becoming. And he said, as you write your story, you have to make a decision about which one you think it is, and the principles of that will guide your story throughout. So if you think that everything is in flux, well, then you know, then Nothing, Nothing ever stays the same. You can't, you know, it's kind of like what Heraclitus said, you can never step into the same river even once, because it doesn't exist at all, or you're what on the other side, where you think that it's always being it's always the same, and these principles are going to stay throughout. So it's kind of like you have to make that decision, and that guides your story throughout.

James Altucher 52:14
Okay, I like that. That's interesting. I'm gonna I have to read story. I know that's like the key book for for screenwriting. So I want to read it.

Dave Bullis 52:24
Yeah, there's always, like, there's three books that everyone talks about for screenwriting, story by McKee, Screenplay by by Sid field, and obviously, save the cat by Blake Snyder. Those are, like, the, if you could read even just one of three of those books, most screenwriters and most, you know, Hollywood producers, they sort of go back to those three books. There's actually, no, there's actually another, I'm sorry,

James Altucher 52:44
Go ahead. No no. Keep recommending.

Dave Bullis 52:48
There was gonna be another screenwriting book that I recommend, that I think is the best one out there. It's called the 90 day Screenplay by Al watt. That is, that is the best book of screenwriting I've ever seen. I never read.

James Altucher 53:00
So here's, here's an idea I had for, like, a fun little sitcom type TV series. So it's called gurus gone wild. And it's, instead of Girls Gone Wild, gurus gone wild. And it's basically, you know, I know a lot of people in kind of the self help and personal improvement industry, and of course, all of us have our own share of problems, but many of these people kind of put forward this public face that's like perfect in order to kind of attract their, you know, whatever, their people for their seminars or or whatever. And I was thinking it would just, it would be like, almost like this Seinfeld type thing where, you know, the character based on me would meet with, like, the character based on whatever well known person, and then they would just be complaining about relationships the whole time, and stories would kind of like veer off from there. And I just thought it would be, like a funny idea, and kind of like The Larry Sanders Show meets Seinfeld type of thing, but with, but with, like, the self help industry.

Dave Bullis 53:59
And the self help self help, self help industry is huge. And I'm, by the way, I'm glad you mentioned The Larry Sanders Show. I love that show. And, you know, he passed away earlier this year, and I hope more people actually find that show, because I think it's a, it's a gem James.

James Altucher 54:15
Well, well, think about the hotbed of talent. You know, we talked earlier about places you could go where a very small group becomes this amazing, amazingly talented group of people later on. So of course, Gary shambling already was, was amazingly talented. But look who came from there. Bob Odenkirk was on the show. And of course, he's, you know, well known for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul Judd Apatow was a writer for the show, and of course, he's made the funniest movies of all time ever since then. Jeffrey Tambor was on the show, and then, of course, he did Arrested Development, and now he does transparent for for Amazon. Gosh, I was just reading about an Oh, Jon Stewart was on the show, and he. Went on to do the daily show. So it's just, it's non stop the talent Janine Garoppolo was on that show. It's just non stop the talent that was on that show almost, almost every week, and the writers of the show and everything,

Dave Bullis 55:11
Yeah, it's absolutely phenomenal. And you know, when you can get those sort of hotbed of talent, you know, then it becomes almost the opposite problem, which is, how do you keep all that talent? Because, you know, at some point, you know, when somebody comes so talented in those, those writer writings, writers rooms, or something else, you know, they end up getting offers to leave. I mean, it happens a lot on late night. I have a friend of mine. He actually writes for Jimmy Kimmel, and he actually talked about the same thing. You know, it's a lot of the times you get a lot of offers. There's a lot of really cool things. Because when you're when you're doing good work, constantly, people come up to you, to to to make you more opportunities.

James Altucher 55:49
Well, you know, Jon Stewart had a philosophy about this. I mean, the Daily Show is a great kind of management study, because you He created all this. He created this environment with all this amazing talent, also like Steve Carell, Stephen Colbert at Helms and all of those guys left, and John sewer encouraged them to leave. I mean, Jon Stewart even helped develop Stephen Colbert's show, The Colbert show. And why did he do that? Well, because he knew that. You know, talent needs to be, needs to flourish. It needs to grow. It needs to go on to their own thing. But because of the high standards set by that talent, new good talent will come in and and take over. And that's what's happened. That's what happened. I mean, the Daily Show probably never had a year over year where it was worse one year in the year before.

Dave Bullis 56:38
Yeah. And you know, again, you know, as we talk about all the talent, you know that that's always that idea, too, is having that farm system and always being able to pull and recognize talent. It's kind of, you know, what, like a professional sports team does the same thing, right? They always are on the lookout, having scouts, making sure that they get the top guys over somebody else. And but by the way, I do like that Guru idea, you know, as I'm thinking about it, as I talk, that would actually be a funny show, because, again, the self help industry, James is so huge. I mean, I used to go into borders back when they existed, and now Barnes and Nobles, and there'd be a just a huge wall of self help books. Also, you know, it's kind of that family guy joke. Brian wrote a book called, like, think it, do it, want it or something like that. And it was, you know, most of it was blank pages so you could fill it out yourself.

James Altucher 57:30
I'm sorry, James, that's great. That's a funny idea.

Dave Bullis 57:33
Yeah, it's just because, you know, he was on Bill Maher, Brian the dog was and he was like, we Oh, Brian isn't wanting it and wishing it the same thing, and why most of the pages blank. He's like, isn't that lazy as hell? But, yeah, I think that a guru idea. It would be awesome, James, especially. Now I think, I think the self help industry, I think it maybe started off in the right direction, but then, you know, as other people sort of get into it, it sort of loses a lot of, I guess, I don't know. I guess maybe a lot of it sort of comes watered down, if you will.

James Altucher 58:05
I mean, you could imagine, like, two, I mean, look, there's all these, look, getting real help requires hard work. It's not like I'm going to read an Instagram quote and suddenly be helped, but you could imagine these two guys who have like, you know, tons of followers or whatever on Instagram or Facebook or wherever they're meeting, and like, one of them sad because his latest quote or post didn't get as many likes. Another person might be, like, upset about, like, a girlfriend and, you know, just kind of, you know, you kind of, kind of see the real thing. But meanwhile, the, you know, some side stories might be problems at a seminar or, you know, the, you know, how they come overcome their problems with the girlfriend or whatever. Like, you know, there's, there could be many different sub stories in there. I probably should write, like, well, how you know, it's like a page a minute, right for a script. So if you're at a 22 minute show, it's 22 pages and you need, what do you mean? You mean? Do you need, like, three story lines intersecting and kind of a beginning, middle and end for each one? I'm asking you. I'm learning from you.

Dave Bullis 59:09
So, so TV shows, depending upon which what like, what kind of show it's going to be, the the way that the format works changes a little bit. So if you're writing something like Seinfeld, it's a lot different than something like, let's say, The Walking Dead, because if you're wearing a one hour show, you write it like a movie. If you're writing a half hour sitcom, it's everything becomes like double spaced, and it looks almost more like a stage play, how that's laid out. So if you're going to do like something like, you know, Seinfeld, everyone loves Raymond, it would actually be double what you think, because each page is at now 30 seconds instead of a minute. So it would be for a 20 minute show. It becomes like 40 to 50 pages and etc, etc, so that. So if you whatever software like, if you use Final Draft fade in writers duet, there's so many out there now You know, it does all the heavy lifting for you, so you can focus on writing, and that's key.

James Altucher 1:00:14
What So, other than just the spacing and stuff, what are the what are the beats of a sitcom?

Dave Bullis 1:00:19
So again, you know, there's so again, like if we use Seinfeld in his example, Seinfeld was revolutionary because all four main characters always had their own storyline. So Jerry had a Kramer, Bb, George C, Elaine D, and you know, all of them would end up intersecting at some point or another throughout the show. And what I love about Seinfeld was everything is different. No no two episodes are ever the same. And I think that was the genius of Larry David, because, you know, I actually knew a guy who wrote a couple screenplays for Seinfeld, and I was Fred stoller's His name,

James Altucher 1:00:51
I'm Facebook friends with Fred Stoller. He's a good guy.

Dave Bullis 1:00:54
Yeah, I've tried to get him on the podcast, but we can't make our schedules sort of coincide. I'm going to keep trying, though. And you know, he would say, whenever he would hand in a script, Larry David had, we always go through it, and he would add the final touches to it. And sometimes he would change a few things up here and there, but, but basically, you know what exactly, you have a beginning, middle and end. And you know, the beginning and the end are 25% each, and that middle part is 50% so that would you know at the end you have 100% and, you know, you sort of have these story lines. They can sort of intersect as they are, depending upon how you're going to write the story. So with Seinfeld, like I was just saying, it's a lot, you know, each episode was different. And then sometimes at the end, everything would sort of all intersect with each other. All four storylines would intersect, you know, and then sometimes there'd be only two storylines that would actually intersect, or sometimes it will be two storylines, period. That was a brilliance of Seinfeld. You never knew what, how actually the story was gonna play out. And that's why I think Seinfeld still one of the best TV shows ever, if not the best TV show ever.

James Altucher 1:01:53
Yeah, that's really interesting. It's probably a good model to follow. He, and I'm sure you're referring to he had a he wrote an excellent book my Seinfeld year, where he writes about this stuff.

Dave Bullis 1:02:02
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I actually bought the Kindle version, and that's actually where I started saying to Fred, I said, you should come on this podcast and we can, you know, dig in a little deeper talk about TV writing and how it's changed, if it even has changed, and, you know, all that good stuff, but, but, yeah, my Seinfeld year is a fantastic ebook.

James Altucher 1:02:22
Yeah, no, I, I'm a fan of that one. Yeah. I just got seinfeldia, which is kind of a history of the Seinfeld show. And it's, it looks interesting.

Dave Bullis 1:02:33
Really, I haven't heard of that. So basically, is it like, all about how it got developed and stuff, yeah, see that? Yeah, I love stuff like that. It's very interesting. I actually have a book about lost, of a TV show lost, and it was the only one that Damon Lindelof actually signed off on. And I think he wrote the foreword for it as well. But it's basically goes into the whole mythology of lost.

James Altucher 1:02:52
Oh, wow. What's the name of the book?

Dave Bullis 1:02:56
You know, I don't have it right, handy. It's actually buried in amongst my library of books. I'm gonna, I'll tell you what I will. I will message the title to you.

James Altucher 1:03:04
Yeah, yeah. Cuz I just finished, um, re watching loss for probably the third time. I watched it with my 14 year old.

Dave Bullis 1:03:10
So did she like it?

James Altucher 1:03:13
Oh, she loved it. Yeah. It's a great show. I mean, a lot of people hate the ending, but I love it. Might I have no problem with it. I thought it was a great show.

Dave Bullis 1:03:20
Yeah, I think it was a phenomenal show. I spent season one, I literally was always like, What the hell is going on? You know, it's been in a good way, not like, you know, in a bad way. And you would always be guessing about, you know, what the hell would are these things, and how, how this actually is, and, you know, and then they actually started doing a podcast about it. I mean, this is, you know, a couple years ago, when the show was on the air, they would actually do podcasts about the episode and, you know, answer some fan questions was actually really interesting. Way they did that, I think it actually helped out, you know, interaction, and also helped out, you know, the fan base, to make them, you know, to make them much more inclusive.

James Altucher 1:03:56
Yeah, no, I loved every aspect of it, so, but you're right. The first season was great. But I loved, I loved the last season too. I like the whole story of, you know, Jacob and the man in the butt and black and so on.

Dave Bullis 1:04:07
Yeah, it was phenomenal. And, you know, I know a couple people who wrote a couple episodes of loss. I want to have them on the show too, because they would explain to me how they actually wrote the episodes. And basically what they would do is, he said, you know, either JJ or Damon would come in and they would say, Okay, this is what has to happen in this episode. And now, okay, this is your episode. Now episode two. This is what has to happen, so this is your episode. So that's why a lot of times you would see things that would never actually explained, because writers were just encouraged to use their creativity and come up with this stuff, but they didn't necessarily have to tie in with anything

James Altucher 1:04:41
Well, and I'm fine with it. Like everybody wanted, like, very nice explanations for everything. By the end, I'm okay if you know not everything in the world needs to be explained. Like, it's okay that not that you can still use your imagination to understand what's happening.

Dave Bullis 1:04:57
Oh yeah, absolutely I agree. James and. You know, that's why, in the first episode, there was all these, you know, strange things going on. And I was, again, I was cool with them, not explaining a lot of stuff. Yeah, so, you know, James, again, I don't want to take up too much your time. I know you're a busy guy, so I

James Altucher 1:05:14
Really appreciate this, though.

Dave Bullis 1:05:15
Oh yeah, I again, James, I one of the reasons I saw the podcast was because of you. And it's amazing that we're, you know, you're going to be episode like 141 I think. But I just wanted to ask, you know, James, just, you know, in closing, is there anything that we didn't discuss and maybe you wanted to talk about, or anything you wanted to say to sort of put up here at the end of this whole conversation?

James Altucher 1:05:36
No, I mean, I'm really, I it was a good conversation for me. I learned more about screenwriting, which is something I'm always interested in. I just want to mention, if I'm going to be promotional at all, which I which I don't like doing, but I'll do it anyway. I do have this book that I'm really happy with called choose your called reinvent yourself, which is coming out January 5, 2017, and and I'm super excited about it. And you know, if people want to learn more about it and the stories that kind of inspired it, then, then I would, I would get it,

Dave Bullis 1:06:13
And everyone, I'm going to link to that in the show notes as well on Amazon. And James, you can count on me buying a copy on day one. I'm gonna buy the minute it comes out. And you know, because again, I have every single one of your books, and I think they're all phenomenal.

James Altucher 1:06:29
Oh, well, thanks so much. So I appreciate that.

Dave Bullis 1:06:33
And James, where can people find you out online?

James Altucher 1:06:37
People can find me at jamesaltucher.com or at they could find me on Amazon, or they can, I don't know, I mean, Twitter at Jaltucher, Instagram at altucher, all sorts of places. I'm everywhere.

Dave Bullis 1:07:02
Again, I want to say thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure. And again, I if you ever want to come back on, please, the door is always open. And I wish you the best luck with everything.

James Altucher 1:07:13
Excellent. Dave, thanks so much, and good luck with everything.

Dave Bullis 1:07:14
Thank you very much. James, thank you very much. Yeah, again, again. It was great talking to you, and I wish again, let's talk soon James.

James Altucher 1:07:22
Okay,

Dave Bullis 1:07:23
Take care, buddy. Bye. Bye!

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BPS 470: Why 99% of Indie Films NEVER Get Distribution with Bill Ostroff

May 7, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome Bill Ostroff, a filmmaker, producer, and founder of the long-running FirstGlance Film Festival, who has spent decades on the front lines of independent film—watching thousands of projects rise, fall, and fight for attention in an increasingly crowded marketplace. His experience offers something most filmmakers don’t get until much later: a clear, unfiltered understanding of how the industry actually works.

Bill’s journey began like many filmmakers—passion first, clarity later. Coming out of film school, he had scripts, ambition, and the belief that breaking in was simply a matter of getting the work in front of the right people. But reality quickly set in. The traditional pathways—agents, producers, studios—are built on layers of protection and gatekeeping. Unsolicited scripts don’t get read. Cold submissions don’t get opened. And even when opportunities appear, they often vanish just as quickly. It’s a system that forces filmmakers to rethink their approach early on.

That frustration ultimately led Bill to create something for himself—and for others. The FirstGlance Film Festival wasn’t born from a grand business plan, but from a simple need: a place to show independent films that didn’t fit into the traditional festival ecosystem. At the time, many festivals were essentially preview platforms for studio films, not true showcases for indie creators. Bill built FirstGlance to fill that gap, starting small and growing it into a respected platform with a loyal filmmaker community.

Over time, one thing became clear—making a film is only part of the equation. Getting it seen is the real challenge.

Bill emphasizes that today’s filmmakers are not just creators—they are marketers. From the moment you have an idea, you should be thinking about branding, audience, and visibility. Secure the domain. Create social media accounts. Build anticipation early. Because in a world where thousands of films are made every year, the ones that succeed are not just the best—they are the most visible.

One of the most important realities he shares is that distribution has fundamentally changed. The traditional dream of theatrical release is no longer the standard outcome for independent films. In fact, the vast majority will never play in theaters. But that doesn’t mean they fail. As Bill explains, there are multiple legitimate distribution paths—VOD platforms, streaming services, licensing deals, and niche audiences online. The key is understanding where your film fits and how to position it accordingly.

“99% of the films that true independent filmmakers make will never see a theatrical screen,” he explains, not as a discouragement, but as a reality check.

Another major issue Bill highlights is the rise of questionable film festivals. With the explosion of digital platforms, many “festivals” now exist purely to hand out awards without offering real screenings or audiences. These events can look legitimate on the surface, but they provide little to no value for filmmakers. Bill stresses the importance of doing due diligence—researching festivals, understanding their track record, and ensuring they actually screen films in front of real audiences.

For filmmakers, this means shifting focus away from collecting laurels and toward building real momentum. A strong festival run is not about how many selections you get—it’s about where your film is seen and who is watching it. A single meaningful screening can often be more valuable than dozens of empty accolades.

He also dives into the importance of quality control—particularly in areas many indie filmmakers overlook. Sound, for example, is one of the most critical elements of a professional film, yet it’s often neglected due to budget constraints. Poor audio can ruin an otherwise strong project, especially in a theater environment. It’s a reminder that filmmaking is a technical craft as much as it is a creative one.

Beyond the technical, Bill’s biggest message is about strategy. Filmmakers need to think long-term. Each project should build toward something—whether it’s a portfolio, a network, or a reputation. The industry rewards consistency, not one-off success. Relationships matter. Community matters. And the ability to adapt matters most of all.

There is no single path into the industry anymore. The old system still exists, but it is no longer the only option. Today’s filmmakers have more tools, more platforms, and more control than ever before—but that also means more responsibility. You are not just making a film. You are building a brand, an audience, and a career.

In the end, Bill Ostroff represents a filmmaker who understands both sides of the industry—the creative and the business—and has built something that bridges the gap between them. His insights are not about chasing trends or shortcuts, but about understanding the fundamentals and playing the long game.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:29
On this episode, I'm talking with a man who started one of the largest and longest running indie film festivals out there today. The First Glance Film Festival actually started in 1996 way up the street from me, right now, in Center City, Philadelphia, all those many years ago. We're going to talk about all that stuff all his career, making the film festival getting the word out. How do film festivals work behind the scenes. We're gonna find out with guest Bill Ostroff. Hey, Bill, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Bill Ostroff 2:29
Thank you excited about it.

Dave Bullis 2:32
You know, I'm glad to have you on, Bill. You know, as you know, as I was saying before, you know, just you know online and you know, you're a guy I've always had wanted to have on the podcast. You know, you run the first glance Film Festival, huge, huge online presence for with first glance. And also, you know, people have, you know, talked about it more and more, as obviously, as you know, with film festivals, the longer they're around, you know, the more, the sort of more cash that they carry, if you know what I mean, the more you like look at Sundance. You'll look at, you know, slam dance, all those great film festivals. And, you know, we're gonna get to yours in a second. And I just want to ask you, before we get to the talking about the film festivals bills, I wanted to ask about, you know, your career particularly, and you getting started. So when you were first starting out, you know, in the in the film industry, you know, did you grow up always, you know, you know, watching movies and trying to make your own movies as a kid.

Bill Ostroff 3:25
Yeah, I kind of was, I didn't have the unfortunately, the technology was much different back then. We wouldn't really call it technology. It was celluloid, it was film. So it was a it was a much more expensive hobby back then, and it wasn't something that I could really afford. But I was a huge movie goer. I was a comic book reader. I've always been into the fantasy, sci fi, horror, all that kind of stuff. And when I decided what I wanted to do in college, it was make movies. So I went to Penn State, and then to temple, and learned everything I thought I needed to know to make movies. And then got into the real world and realized I didn't know anything. And and started pa ing and working all, you know, I did all kinds of stuff. It was, it was kind of interesting. In high school, I was working for local companies, shooting, you know, going out and shooting like weddings and sweet sixteens and bar mitzvahs and things like that. And then I did get the opportunity to do some sort of industrial stuff and things like that, where I was like, Okay, well, even though they're boring, they're a little bit more exciting than a wedding or a sweet 16 and having to spend 14 hours with a camera on your shoulder. And back then, cameras weren't like cameras today. Of you know we were talking about like a 25 pound beta can SP on one shoulder, and a 40 pound deck hanging off your other shoulder and 25 pound belt to keep it running. So I definitely learned the nuts and bolts from like, high school into college, and learned how to use lots of different technologies and cameras, and it was, it was a pretty interesting thing for me. I wanted to be a writer, I wanted to be a producer, I wanted to be director. I didn't really know what I wanted to be, but I just know, knew that I wanted to be involved in hoobs.

Dave Bullis 5:42
So, you know, Bill, you know, obviously, because I live in Philadelphia, and I live probably about 40, not probably about 30 minutes away from Temple. You know, do you still keep in contact with temple? And do they know that you run the first glance Film Festival?

Bill Ostroff 5:56
You know, they kind of sort of do one of the things that, one of the things, the main issues that I feel that, that I've had with Temple is that their alumni outreaches is is, especially for the theater and film division, is really minute. You know, I'll get the once a month in the mail. Hey, you know, can you support us? But when I turn around and ask them for support, it's kind of hard to get through the red tape and things like that. And being an alumni, you would think that there were, there would be someone to talk to, someone to call and say, hey, you know, been running this film festival since I graduated temple. Just thought you might want to know, you know, tell your students to come out, blah, blah, blah, but yeah, it seems to be a hurdle for us, and it's sad, because I know I have a couple of friends that have been that have graduated USC and UCLA, and they have very, very active alumni. They have Student Film Festival. They have student film festivals open to the public. So it's like, they do a lot more, I think. And, you know, Temple, back then was sort of the go to film school after the big three, which is, you know, UCLA, USC and NYU. And it had a pretty progressive film school, but I just, I don't know, I haven't been back to temple and in a long time, so I really don't know if they've kept up.

Dave Bullis 7:30
Yeah, you know, that's something I've talked about too with a lot of other guests. Is not specifically temple, but just their experience at college and sometimes, you know, obviously, even even with me, you know, the schools are very eager to ask for, like, alumni donations. But you know, when they when it's come, when it comes time for, like, hey, look, this is what I'm doing, there's not a lot of support. You know, when I, where I went to school, our communications department was so bad bill that they used to ask me to teach the classes for the for the communications professors, because they never picked up premiere, and they never picked up, you know, like, encore to make DVDs. They never picked up any of that. And it was funny. And I started asking, I'm like, am I getting, like, gonna, am I gonna get like, two paychecks for this? And they said, No. Well, Dave, you know, and when, you know, even when I worked there, there was always a bunch of crap about, you know, all we can't, you know, the Alumni Association, blah, blah. I mean, honestly, I so I feel you bill, it's so frustrating. But at the same time, when they ask for money, they want to know why. No one's giving back, it's like, well, you're, you're basically constantly asking and never actually helping at this, you know what? I mean?

Bill Ostroff 8:37
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's even, it's even funny to me that we have to go, you know, we even have to go out of our way when it comes to like Twitter and Facebook to try to contact whoever the person is running the social media at the time. And you'd be surprised considering, you know, I would consider myself, and I think that most people in our industry would consider first glance film an influencer on social media, as far as as far as the amount of followers we have, any engagement we have in the community, and we have to beg temple to even tweet us out, and they'll retweet every once in a while. But you get like, well, if it's not a temple, you know, sponsored event. And I'm like, Well, you know, you have two temple alumni that run the run the film festival, so it might behoove you to help us out a tad. But you know, it is, it is what it is, as they say in the business,

Dave Bullis 9:33
Yeah, that's very, very true. Bill, I've heard that a lot in this business. It is what it is. So, you know, as you know, you sort of go out, you know, you graduated from Temple, you know, you went out to LA and you started doing a lot of different, you know, productions and stuff. You know, what was sort of the impetus to start the first glance Film Festival.

Bill Ostroff 10:03
Well, first glance just came out of my frustration again, of there being at the time there were no independent film festivals in Philadelphia. There was the, I can't remember what the what they used to call it, the International Festival, World Cinema, or something like that. There was that. There was like the Jewish Film Festival, the Asian Film Festival, and the gay and lesbian Film Festival. I believe those were like before, and they were all pretty huge events. And at the time, I had approached what was now the Philadelphia Film Festival and said to them, Hey, you know, there's nothing independent. Can I help you build sort of an independent film festival for local filmmakers, for filmmakers that aren't going to get into these big, what I like to call film preview events, because that's really what they are. They're not a film festival. They're just more of a film preview of what's coming in theaters in three or four months. And you know, can we grab the main characters, the main actors and the producer and the director, and have, you know, a Q and A after and charge people $75 a door to get it. So at the time, I was basically hanging out with three or four other temple grad they were, or not, Temple grads, Temple students. And we had a small theater company, and we were doing theater, musical theater, at the divorce building, which I don't think exists anymore, but it was on Fifth and market, and we used to do all these really cool little, you know, original musical theater productions. We'd run them for four or five weeks in the space. It was in the bottom of sort of a cabaret space in the bourse. And I just came up with the idea, you know, why don't we, you know, why don't we just do something movie ish, and I was like, I don't have anywhere to show my films. I have a couple of films I want to show that. You know, I tried screening at school. And, you know, when you when you scream something in that in front of your class, you never get the kind of reaction that you think you should, because you have a teacher that's, you know, that's teaching you in critical cinema, and I'm trying to build, you know, stuff that's sort of mainstream. So I decided, You know what, I'm just going to see what I can do. And this was sort of before the internet. So basically, it was more about just getting the word out through postcards and putting up signs at school and putting a couple of ads in the city paper and the Philadelphia weekly. And the first year, I basically spend my own money. And we had a three night event in the Bors building, in that cabaret space, and I showed my films along with 30 other local films. And that was sort of it, I thought. And then I was starting to get phone calls and emails about when the next one was going to be. I never really planned to have a next one. I just wanted to show myself. And what I realized was that there were people out there that wanted an independent, a real Independent Film Festival, and that's sort of where first glance was born. You know, back in 1996 and you know now we're, as of January of this coming year, it will be our 20th Film Festival in Philly. So it's, it's pretty huge. And then after a couple years, I decided I needed to move out to LA because there was no production going on in Philadelphia. And this was actually before and night started getting hot, so there really wasn't anything. The Film Office was sort of just there. It didn't really do a whole lot. There wasn't, weren't incentives, you know, it was a different time. There was, there really was no internet as we know it, you know, 18 years ago. So I decided to go up to California, and I was like, you know, what if I can start something in Philly like this, let me see if I can start something in LA. You know, it took me a couple more years to kind of formulate how I wanted LA to work. You know, we started in a really small space in Burbank, and in about three years, moved into, you know, 200 seat theaters. And come April of 2017, it'll be our 17th event in LA and we'll be at a 350 seat theater for four nights. To be our biggest Los Angeles event in our history. And, you know, plans for Philly in year 20, where we have some really interesting ideas, and we hope that's going to be our biggest event as well. And you know, we, we've been, you know, we've been Philadelphia's independent film festival since 96 and we're going to continue, and we've been, we've been really successful at it. I mean, filmmakers love us. They come back. We have hundreds of alumni, 1000s of alumni, that contact us on a almost a daily basis, sometimes to let us know what's going on with their films and their careers? And you know, anybody, whoever comes through first glance, if they do get distribution, you know, we end up putting it out there on social media. So it's one of the things that we've been doing since the very beginning, but the internet has made even easier for us to share that information with the with the masses, you know.

Dave Bullis 16:05
And it's you know ties in with what I was saying before. You know about some of these bigger festivals. Well, you know, obviously Sundance and slant dance are some of the biggest in the world. But you know, the in my experience, you know longer that a film festival, you know, goes on, you know, every year, you know, five years, 10 years, etc, it builds its cash. And that way you can actually say, Listen, you know, you're, you're submitting now to a festival that has a track record of 10 years. We've been going strong 15 years, and now, you, like you just said, 20 years. And this adds a, you know, a lot more, amount more to the festival than, obviously, if one that just started, and when I think the benefit of this is like you just also touched on, is you have filmmakers that have started at first glance, and they said, you know, now we're able to build our career and and keep in touch with, you know, all the things we're doing at first glance. And I think that's how you know some of these things, you know, build upon each build upon each other, is because, obviously, you're giving them a space to, you know, show their movie, and then in turn, you know, hey, you know that new hot filmmaker, well, he started at this film festival. It's so similar what Elliot Grove did at Rain dance. You know, you know Christopher Nolan, you know, debuted following at Rain dance. And you know that. That's why I'm I, you know, I'm so glad that you know, again, like you said, you started it here in Philadelphia, because in 96 you know, you're right, there was no, you know, real filming in Philadelphia. And now, if you actually flash forward today, Bill, you know, a lot of the productions that were in Philly have all gone to Pittsburgh because of just the the taxes. And, I mean, it's sort of this ebb and flow with Philadelphia. And believe me, sooner than later, Bill, I'm going to follow you out to LA and because, really, there is nothing left here going on in Philly, I'm telling you, but, but, yeah,

Bill Ostroff 17:50
I know. I know. We've, we've tried, we've tried really hard. We've been big supporters of Sharon. We try to get filming done in Philadelphia too, because, you know, I want to be able to be able to come back and actually work on these movies, you know, I'm a DGA ad, and I'm, you know, Philly. I would love for Philly to be my home base, but unfortunately, there's very little going on. And when that one production or two productions happens, it employs the people that actually need to work in Philly. So that, you know, and it's a shame, because it's very piecemeal. It's like if Philly were to create something like Atlanta, where there is no cap and the incentive is ongoing, you will never see it die. And I think that that's the key. And Atlanta has built up its community, its skilled crew members. It's building studios and stages all over the place in Atlanta, it also helps that you have a really, you know, one of the most popular shows on television, being shot there, like, seven months out of the year with The Walking Dead. And that's something that I know, that Sharon has worked really hard to try to get a series in Philly. But again, the problem is that if you, if you were to shoot a series in Philly, you really can't shoot from like, you know, November through March, because, you know the weather, so you have this, this period that's really not that doesn't really behoove most networks, because, you know, they want to start shooting, you know, August through December, and then January through March, and you lose, you know, you lose a lot of your momentum in this in the wintertime on the East Coast.

Dave Bullis 19:36
Yeah, very true. You know, that's why Hollywood, you know, obviously, was used to be stationed in New Jersey, and they finally moved out to Los Angeles because of the weather. Because, you realize, you know, the weather out here from November to, you know, February, March, you know, it's, it's, it's tough. Sometimes, you know, it's tough to do a lot of things, even October. Sometimes it gets really cold out here. And it's just, it's, it's just hard to do stuff, you know. And, yeah, again, you know, putting a TV show in Philly, there's always something in Philadelphia, you know, because some, you know, some people have actually, you know, asked me about, you know, do they film here a lot. And I said they film here less and less each season. And I think last season, I think it was, they weren't here at all. They just shoot the whole thing in LA, yeah, it would be tough to get. But you know, again, you know, I know the Film Office does whatever they can and try to get a series here. You know, it's just, you're right. It's just, it's, it's just tough right now, but, but again, it is again, I will probably find that to La sooner than later, but, but, you know, so you know, as we talk about, you know, film first glance, you know, and you know, you're just building this up. And, you know, building up this, this great sort of reputation, you know, where do you sort of see first glance going within maybe the next five to 10 years.

Bill Ostroff 21:05
Well, you know, it's been something on my mind over the last few years, because, you know, 20 is a big, sort of monumental year for us, and I really want to do something different and special and magical in Philly. And you're 20 next year. And again, it's rough because, you know, we are a self sufficient, self funded Film Festival. We don't get corporate sponsorship. We don't have big companies or, you know, big city grants coming in to help us. So it really is powered by the filmmaker and by the attendees, and that's how we've grown. And you know, it's like, what I would love first glance to be is an end all be all for filmmakers we're looking into starting a social media marketing company for independent film. We've been doing it over the last year, sort of under the radar through Twitter, you know, and it's been working pretty nicely. We've also, just last year, I've helped four campaigns for crowdfunding campaigns raise over $100 million I mean about what I was trying to say was $100,000 I would wish it was 100 million, but about $100,000 including film threat, which we raised about $60,000 for, with Chris Gore for his Kickstarter campaign, which we're really excited about, because, you know, Kickstarter is going to help film fright come back next year, and we may have some things that we're going to be getting involved with next year With Tim, which is great for us, because our expansion, what we're trying to trying to find ways to expand into is, I know, from the many years of first glance, the many years of watching the landscape change, is that there are networks out there. There are SVOD companies, VOD company, you know, straight to DVD, that that court me pretty much on a weekly to bi weekly basis, to ask us, hey, we want your product. I think the thing that that indie filmmakers need to understand is that 99% of the films that true independent filmmakers make will never see a theatrical screen. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't make money. There's pay cable, there's cable, there's you know, subscription, VOD, there's VOD services, there's syndication. There are, you know, YouTube channels with, you know, millions of subscribers that could get them, you know, 10s of 1000s of views a day and and, you know, yeah, they're not gonna. They may not necessarily make back all of their money, but it is considered legitimate distribution. And our goal with first glance, and we're in conversations with a couple of YouTube channels and a couple of fvod companies as we speak, is the possibility to syndicate that product, not exclusively, not taking the right from the filmmakers, basically, sort of a lease deal is, I guess, the Best way to kind of place it in layman's terms, is that these companies want to lease your product for a certain period of time, and then you get it back. And I think that that's the direction that a lot of these companies are going in because filmmakers that are making indie films are making them because they. Want to lose the rights to their product or their IP or their web series or whatever it is, and YouTube has sort of become too big for its britches. The amount of content that goes up on YouTube on a daily basis. You can't market yourself hard enough or well enough, to get yourself those kind of views that used to happen 10, you know, 10 years ago when YouTube first started. So finding an avenue and finding the right distribution partners for first glance and finding the right avenues so that it doesn't cost filmmakers any money, and it enables them to get onto platforms that are, you know, that have cred, that have some sort of quality content. And you know, not to, not to, you know, to downgrade YouTube. I mean, it is a great platform. It gets, you know, more eyes than any other platform out there. But you know you're fighting with cat videos. You know your your 15 minute, your 15 minute masterpiece short film isn't going to be watched for 15 minutes. You know, you're lucky if you can get them to watch your trailer. So it is there is that downfall of YouTube being too big, you know? I think Vimeo is an interesting idea. But again, Vimeo also doesn't spend any money marketing, so it's still the independent filmmaker having to do it yourself. And and DIY is is a concept that's interesting and sort of outdated too, because there's not enough time in the day for any one filmmaker to actually do it themselves. And no matter what you do, no matter what you you know you need to spend some money. There needs to be some money spent. You're not going to be able to market your film with with no money. And I think that as far as independent filmmakers go, they should always think about if they are crowdfunding, if some of that money should be put aside for marketing once you're done, and probably for film festival entry fees. You know that it's another you know it's another rough spot, because I know that a lot of filmmakers get aggravated in entry fees for film festival but I try to explain to every filmmaker that you know, 99% of the film festivals out there make no money. And the ones that you see on the big screen, the sun dances and the flam dances and the tribecas and the Philadelphia Film Festival and South by Southwest. And these, these are funded, I mean, millions and millions of advertising dollars and grants coming from, you know, city, state, federal, you know, car companies, vodka companies, I mean, is the, you know, these, these companies spend a lot of money because they know that there's going to be a, you know, a type talent at these events. Now, the other 99% of the film festivals out there are run by an individual person or a couple of people, and, you know, and many of them are legitimate, you know, my biggest, my, my biggest, I think, pet peeve over the last four or five years is sort of this quest for laurels, thing that's going On, and the pop up of all of these I would call fake award type film festivals that aren't actually even film festivals. They're just a dinner, and you're spending your hard earned money because you know you'll get a laurel, and it's sad because you're never going to be seen by anyone. No one ever screens them? Yeah, they might be a $10 entry fee or a $15 entry fee, but again, you're only getting digital laurels. You're not going to sit in a theater and watch your movie with anyone because no one's watching. And I've seen them pop up all over the place. And one of the things that we've been doing over the last four or five years with film freeway is when Film Freeway first came out, you couldn't make you couldn't make the decision like there was no there was no checkbox to filter a film festival from an actual just a film awards program. And we worked really, really hard with them so that there would be distinctive categories, because we feel that it's very unfair for filmmakers to be entering a quote, unquote Film Festival that isn't actually a film festival. And they pop up all over the place. Philadelphia has one, San Diego has one, Los Angeles has one. And I'm sure that if you do your due diligence and research, you're probably fine. 50 or 60 of them, and they all look the same. They're all promoted the same. They're right up there exactly the same. And their websites are usually pretty shitty, but it's been aggravating, because I get filmmakers all the time. They're like, Oh, you know, X, you know, I, I need a fee waiver. And I'm like, you know, I would, I would love to do that for you. But you know, one of the things that first glance has always been known for is the quality of films that we show. And it's a it's a huge process. We watch everything. Every film is watched by me. I watch every single film, and I've been doing it since year one, because it's first glance, and we want the quality to be there. And I'm not just going to let anything through, just to sort of let it through. Even people who become friends of mine, they're like, Hey, first glance is coming. I'm like, Yep, go enter. You know, I'm, you know, the the idea of the ethics of the festival is that if I had to waive a fee for one person, I would have to waive the fee for everyone who asks, and if everyone who asks gets a fee waiver, I can't produce the film festivals. So to me, it's it is sort of a double edged sword, and I know that a lot of people complain, Oh, well, Sundance gives waivers, or slam dance gives waivers. I'm like, Yeah, but clam dam makes $250,000 a year in entry fees, you know. And up until about three years ago, they showed in a coffee house. So, you know, it's obviously not costing them $250,000 to produce their events. So it's been, it's been interesting how, sort of, the growth of the internet, the growth of sort of film festivals, and then the sort of this hybrid thing called a film award, which, you know, unfortunately, you know, big festivals will look at the laurels on your resume. But you know, if it's like, you know, the blah, they blah Film Awards, like, what is that?

Dave Bullis 32:23
Yeah, you know, I agree with you, Bill, I've seen some of these film festivals pop up, and it's kind of like what I was saying earlier about, you know, sometimes, hey, you know, it's, it's the first year of, you know, the blah, blah, blah Film Festival, or maybe it's the second year. But that's what I was saying with, with something like yours, or, you know, with your film festival, it holds more cash, and that way, you know, people know, oh, this is a trusted Film Festival. I know what I'm getting involved in with, with the festivals that have a an actual, you know, history, you know, they know that there's, you know, a solid foundation there. And it's not just some people that are come by, you know, okay, everyone gets a laurel. Or everyone, you know, everyone becomes the Critics Choice Award. Or where, you know, there's certain awards that everyone sort of gets. Now, I've noticed that there was a film festival I entered years ago, Bill and they gave out the same award to like everyone who entered. It was, I forget what the hell was called, or something like the Critics Choice Award. And I was like, What the hell is this? Thankfully, I've never, I've never told anybody I've ever won it, because I'm, like, probably 8000 other people have won the same damn award for just entering but, you know, but, but, yeah, you know, just to take a step back, you know, Chris Gore was on the podcast, and we were talking about, we talked mentioned you briefly, and we also mentioned film threat. But, you know, I think Kickstarter is the, you know, even when I was doing it, you know, years ago, you know, I think it is the future. And I think, honestly, the only thing I could see that could take it down is, is this filmmakers who raise their funds and then never keep anybody in the loop about what happened. And I actually had, I've donated to campaigns run by people that I've known, that people that I know. And you know they though they get all the funds they get, you know, 10,000 20,000 30,000 whatever. And then, you know, they get the fees. It all goes through, and then you never hear from them again. And I'm sitting there going, man, these are the type of these are the types of situations that are going to kill crowdfunding for filmmakers. And you know what? And you know, Bill, they never made the movie. So, like, for instance, yeah, I mean, and it's just, it's, it's sad, man, it really is, because then it hurts out. It hurts legitimate filmmakers like you, myself, and everyone you know, the all the other great people I found on this podcast. It hurts all of us, because then people go, Oh, I was burned one time on Kickstarter, so I'm never going to donate again.

Bill Ostroff 34:43
Yeah, yeah. But I also think it's due diligence. I mean, you know, look into I mean, look into it. I mean, if you're here's the thing, I think, if you are a filmmaker and you've made films, I mean, I today, I did a crowdfunding for my own project about four years ago called. Jedi camp, I raised everything I needed, plus a little bit more, which was great, which helped me to pay for some other outstanding production cost that I thought were going to come out of pocket that ended up, you know, being, you know, greatly appreciative of the funders to fund it for me. But you know, my goal had always been, is that if I get this amount of money, we are going to make this project. And I think sometimes people just throw a number out there and think, Oh, well, if I get $35,000 I can make a feature film. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, $35,000 does not go far. And you have to look at it legitimately. I think a lot of times it's one of the things that me and Chris looked at when because prior to this past year's Kickstarter for film threat, he had tried the year before and didn't make it. And, you know, we sat down and had multiple meetings about what I think sort of the pulpit would be for us if we tried to raise money for film fair again, and where I felt like the sweet spot was, where, where I felt like, you know, if you could make this amount, can you get can you do this? And we sat down and we really budgeted it out to the dollar. And I think that that was what enticed people to come back. First off, because, I mean, a lot of times if you run a failed campaign, people are like, well, you know, they failed last time. Should I put my trust in them this time? And I think that I would say for probably, for every one project on Kickstarter and or Indiegogo, you have 100 that are really legitimate filmmakers trying to make their passion projects, trying to get stuff done. And, you know, yeah, it's just like, it's just like, film a filmmaker who enters a film festival and doesn't get into the film festival they want. You can't blame all the film festivals for not getting into one. So I think that that there, there is that, like, sour taste in your mouth, but you know, in most cases, people, on average, I think as of right now, as of like the latest numbers, like, $30 is about the average crowdfund donation. So unless you've really invested in something like, maybe as, like an associate producer, a producer on a project where you're spending a couple $1,000 and it's, it's a huge amount of money, then I think, yeah, you know that's, that's pretty shitty, that you couldn't make that film, and that, whoever you know the project manager is, or the director of that film, what do they do with the money? And that's kind of sucky. But I think if you look at Kickstarter for the whole and indigo and any of the other crowdfunders, but on the whole, the projects get finished. So I don't, you know it's hard. I think you know you're always gonna have bad apples and you're always gonna have people trying to take advantage. But you can usually tell within the write up and their video and, you know, I usually look at a lot of things before I support them, especially through first glance, because we definitely want to have a good relationship with filmmakers. But we also want to make, you know, make them understand that, you know, we're pretty much an equal opportunity supporter of crowdfunding, and you know, it's one of the reasons that we created the support indie film hashtag back in the day, which is, I mean, over the past year, has just been gangbusters. It's just, it's amazing to me how many people are adopting the hashtag and using it on all media now. I mean, we're we, you know, we're bigger on Twitter than we are anywhere else. Because I feel like Facebook is dying as far as reach, and Instagram is becoming like every third post is an ad. But I mean, if you search support indie film on Google, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. And we're really proud of the fact that that not only did we create the hashtag? But we also, if anybody wants to look we use it every single day.

Dave Bullis 39:48
Yeah, I actually think I'm sorry, Bill, yeah,

Bill Ostroff 40:03
And I think it's, it's a it's inspired a lot of people. It really has so, so, yeah, we're excited to see where that you know that part of the industry goes to,

Dave Bullis 40:17
Yeah, I actually, I followed it myself. Support any film, and I use that hashtag whenever I tweet out the podcast at all, because, you know, I can see that people who are really out there doing things are using that hashtag which is good, you know, no one has, you know, hijacked it, you know, stuff like, and none of the film hashtags, no one has really taken yet, like, you know, hashtag, script, chat or whatever, but you know it, which is, but I love the support in hashtag support indie film hashtag you came up with. And you know what? I agree with you on Facebook, by the way, Facebook, to me, is, is because they want you to pay for everything now. They want you to pay to reach your own fan base that you've built up, and they want you to pay for this. And that's why I stick with, you know, like, I stick with Twitter, Instagram, and now I'm getting more into YouTube, but I just, you know, it's just Facebook. I'm just always like, Man, I hate this whole set, this whole network. And again, you have to pay, you have to pay it. It's like, dealing with the mafia. You know, you want something done, fuck you pay me.

Bill Ostroff 41:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's like, you spend, you spend all this time building your family, and then it's like, oh, well, if you want to contact your family now, you got to pay us. And it really is an awful concept, and I think they would have much. They would have been much better off, especially for everyone who runs a small business, is, instead of playing that kind of game is, and I've said this to a lot of people, and most people agree with me. I don't know if it'll ever happen, but I would rather pay them 395, or 495, a month to get all those people back. I just give me back my facebook so I'm willing to take, you know, a monthly I will take a monthly subscription if I can talk to my 4000 followers on on on Facebook, and actually invite them to my events and not be caught at 500 it just, it's a really, it's a really smart me way to do business, I think, and you know, to boost a post to get in touch with the same people that you used to get in touch With. Is it's outlandish.

Dave Bullis 42:20
Yeah, it really is, and that's why I've tried to steer away from Facebook. Every time I want to close down my profile, just my main profile, just me. I always have an excuse why I have to keep it open because someone's trying to contact me, or this, that and the other thing. And God damn it, because there's only a few groups I actually still use on Facebook, and they're mainly like podcasting groups, and the other half is film groups, that actually some there's a group, you know, the groups out there, they hold some validation, you know what I mean. And there's actually some validity of some of the groups, but, but for the most part, you know, if you want a fan page, you want to get a, you know, of hold of those 1000 people, you have to just, you know, you obviously have to boost the post, but, but, yeah, I mean, that's why, again, you know. And I'm also going to link to your Twitter and everything in the show notes, and also the hashtag, you know, support indie film that way. You know, people can find it. But you know, you know, as we're talking more about, you know, getting into film festivals, I had some questions come in, bill that actually relate to first glance. You want, you want to take a few questions. Sure, this one is by, by the way, Whitney Davis, I want to say thank you for all the great questions. She actually sent one in. And I love this question. By the way, Bill, she said, What can writers and directors do to set their indie film apart from everything else out there?

Bill Ostroff 43:40
Wow. Okay, I would say number one. And even though we're right now anti Facebook and anti Instagram, as soon as you come up with the idea or the title of your film, buy your buy the web.com, if you can start a Twitter page, start an Instagram page, start a Facebook group, and start to build your audience, because the only way that you're going to make it stand out from others is that people know about it, and the the issue now is because it's so easy to make a movie, And it is, I mean, people are making them on GoPros. People are making them on their iPhone. People are, you know, you can go to Best Buy and for $450 by, you know, a canon, t5, I, and you can shoot a movie. You know, you could shoot it on your iPad. You can, I mean, and that's the thing is, there's so many ways of shooting them. And yes, there are movies, but are they films? And I make a distinction of like, anyone can make a movie, but not everyone can make a film. And a film is a beginning, a middle and end, a story, something that's cohesive from beginning to end. And. And and I think that you know, to make it stand out, there's a couple of things that you can do, and I would say, you know, in your budgeting of time and energy, and in hopes of finding yourself a good graphic designer, because a good movie image, good poster image, a good postcard image, something to put on your your Facebook backgrounds and keep it all consistent, too. I feel that like for branding purposes, and I think that, you know, a lot of filmmakers like, well, I make a movie a year, and I'm like, well, that's great. You know, you have to brand every single one of them, because until you're an actual name, nobody knows who you are. So you really need to brand each of those films, so that people know where to go, what to see, and then you keep people in the loop. I mean, it's similar, in a way, to a crowdfunding campaign, where from day one in crowdfunding, your goal is to get the word out, to get people to join you. And it's really like a snowball. You have one fan or two fans, or three fans, and then suddenly those three become nine. And it's like, like that old commercial from TV where it's like, that, you know, you tell one person, and then I tell one person, and then I don't remember, it's like a hair product or something, I feel like, but it was like an 80s commercial, and all of a sudden you have like, 700 people on the screen in these little, teeny boxes. So your goal is, is to find champions. And the great thing about what first glance has been doing over the last few years is that we found a lot of champions, and you can, you can find them very easily. You just hit support indie film hashtag, find our list, and that is a huge amount of supporters of ours, skip Bolden and Patrick Russell and Paul Mackey and Russell Southern and I mean, there's people from all over the world that follow us, and the reason they follow us is because we're real and because we share. And a lot of people on social media toot their own horn, and that's all they do. And social media from from day one, I've always learned social media is social. So if I retweet you, you will likely retweet me, and then it becomes a relationship. Doesn't necessarily have to become a close relationship, but if you like what we're doing and you retweet, well then I'm going to look for stuff that you're tweeting and I'm going to retweet. So it's a community, and you're building your community. And for any writer or any filmmaker to stand out from the crowd, they need to create a brand. And create that brand, you have to use social media. And right now, I would say Twitter is the best place to go, because Twitter is the only place that doesn't throttle you, that doesn't push at I mean, yeah, pushes ads, but it doesn't push ads on you the way Facebook and Instagram do. But, you know, create a great image. You know, I think one of the things that make some filmmakers stand out, friends of ours like Jessica Cameron, is they they push a certain envelope, like horror, and they continue to stay in that genre. So you have that ability, but if you're going to make all kinds of movies, well, then, you know, you need to brand those. And I think that it's really important that you understand that social media is not a nine to five job. It is a seven day a week, 365 days a year, and you got to work at it. You got to learn how to get good at you got to learn tips and tricks. And there's all little different things, you know, you got to find champions because, you know, you tweeting out, hey, you know, come see the day. Bullish podcast, if nobody retweets it, then nobody comes to listen.

Dave Bullis 48:52
Yeah, yeah. Very, very true, Bill. And luckily, I have been very fortunate people have retweeted it. But you know, this question in your answer to, you know, it's something that has come up before, and I'm always interested to hear everyone's answer. You know, I've had on like Paul pedito from script gods must die. I've had on Jason Brubaker from filmmaking stuff, and the list goes on and on about, you know, how do you set yourself apart? And you know, one of the things that I go back to, of how you can set yourself apart is even before that. And one of the things that I have said on this podcast more so recently is, I think the hallmark of our times right now is going to be, can you make a micro budget film? Can you take a camera and a and probably one to two or maybe a couple more crew members and a few actors in a few locations. And can you make a gripping movie using all locations and resources you have at your disposal right now, at this very minute, and you can sort of test the waters of this movie by, just like what you were just saying, uploading it to YouTube and just seeing, you know, I mean, I'm not saying you're gonna get a huge amount of traffic, but just to see if it's if a few people can watch it, see if they give you a thumbs up, see if they give you any comments. And you know, if you have a built in market, but prior to that, even if you have, like, a social media account prior to that, you know, obviously use that. But honestly, I think that sometimes Bill people come into this industry with the wrong ideas and expectations. And I think sometimes

Bill Ostroff 50:39
They definitely, yeah, yeah, they definitely do, I think. And I had it too. I mean, I came out of college, you know, with, you know, five feature length scripts in the hand, and I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna go get, you know, I'm gonna become a screenwriter. And blah, blah, blah. And, you know, you come out to LA and you find out that that almost every agency won't take an unsolicited script. So how do you get your script to an agent if they won't take an unsolicited script and you you you get sort of in this catch 22 or Rock in a Hard Place kind of thing where it's like, I have this great screenplay. I want to make it happen. How, you know, how do I get an agent? Well, the only way you get an agent is the air referral. And you don't normally get a referral from an agent. You get a referral from someone higher up. So how do you get a producer or director to read your script? Well, if you send it to a producer, the producer like, well, I can't read this because if some way, some time down the road, a film that I make is partially similar to yours, well then you're going to sue me. Okay, so producer won't read my script a director, all right, how do I get my script from the end of a director? Directors are too busy. They don't have time. Directors have 16 other people that work for them, so if you can even get it to the assistant of the assistant or a script reader, again, chances are it's never going to see the light of day, because most script readers, as we all know, are aggravated screenwriters, and they're, you know, they want their script to be Read, not yours. So there's a huge catch 22 there's lots of there's lots of doorways and things that are that are locked, even for someone like myself, who's been out here for 1520, years, I still have unless it's an upstart company, and it's someone who said to me, Hey, there's this upstart company looking for product, and they're small, and they're looking for like, one to $3 million future films. Well, then I go to my friends that I've read scripts from, I'm like, Hey, I have an avenue right now. You know, it may close up in a year, because if that small company ends up under the umbrella of something larger, like a Comcast universal, or a paramount, or a Sony, well, suddenly they can't take those scripts anymore because of the lawsuits and the fact that they're, you know, everybody's worried about, you know, being sued about this, that and the other thing. So there's this very small winter opportunity. And then if this company then develops a film, and the film goes out, and then it goes, well, well, then boom, you know, like, for example, like, five years ago, you probably could have gotten your horror script in the hands of Jason Blum. Of Jason Blum. Nowadays, probably not. So there's that, that whole window of opportunity where, you know, you come out of college and you're bright eyed and bushy tail, and you're like, oh my god, I get this. I'm gonna get this. And then reality hits you, and you're like, holy shit. This is not easy. You know the story. You know the stories of like Steven Spielberg, like, you know, walking into, you know, the universal lots, and walking into an empty office and just setting up office, you know, quote, unquote, that would Good luck. Good luck getting into the front gate. You know, you know. And if you got through the front gate, just wait to get arrested, you know, 100 feet in. So, I mean, there's, it's a whole other animal now. And I think that the best way to do it now, and quite honestly, like, if you have a great script, pull a great scene. Pull a great scene from that script, something that that you, with your abilities, can shoot. And it doesn't necessarily have to be you shooting it. You know, get Find yourself a good DP, somebody who wants something for the real shoot that scene. Get that scene up, because that scene will show possible investors down the road. You know. You know, there are the chances of it going viral. I mean, limb, but, you know, I can't tell you how many people contact me about I want to make a viral video and like, well, that's not really how it works. You know, you don't go, if someone knew the formula to making a viral video, they'd be like a multi trillionaire. Yeah, you. Yeah, because there is no rhyme, there's no reason you don't know why it goes viral. It's just, it's 100 different elements to why something goes viral, and there's no rhyme or reason. It's just like there's no rhyme or reason you know why. You know an actor who is on their last dime suddenly gets the callback of their lifetime and for the next 10 years, works in sitcoms. There's no, there is, there is no real, actual book that tells you how to do these things. I mean, there's hundreds of books out there that that try to but take those with a grain of salt, because, you know, you can write the greatest script, but if it can't get through a door, then it just, it's just paper, or now it's just the PDF file.

Dave Bullis 55:51
So yes, everything's digital, right?

Bill Ostroff 55:55
You'd be surprised. I do work in the film industry. You'd be surprised at how much paper we should go waste. Well, but yeah, it's um, it's hard to differentiate yourself, and it's not something you're going to do right away. It's something that's going to take you years of work to do. And, you know, get yourself out there and put yourself in networking situations and go to local film festivals and watch what other people are doing. Because that's also another thing that I tell a lot of filmmakers, like, Well, what do you guys accept? And I'm like, Well, go to our, you know, go to our YouTube page and look at all the trailers. You can see the kind of films we accept. Come to our film festival, and you'll see, I mean, I've even invited, you know, enraged filmmakers who didn't get into our film festival, like, why did we get into your film festival? And I'm like, Look, come to it and see and maybe I'll understand why your project didn't get programmed.

Dave Bullis 56:56
Do they ever take you up on, you know, huh? Do they ever take you up on that offer.

Bill Ostroff 57:01
I've had one. I'd had one, and they actually were, they were apologetic afterwards. And they were like, I get it. He's like, he's like, I don't take my film Well, pretty well on a big screen. And he goes, and I know that I had sound issues. And I'm like, see, oh no, there you go, you know. But and all that. Note with sound issues, I implore every independent filmmaker out there that if you're going to make an independent film, please, if there's one person that you have to pay, pay a sound mixer. Because yes, the sound might not be great on your computer when you play it in a small version, but imagine putting that up into a theater that has Adobe surround or something of the like, and you're hearing this buzz throughout an entire 17 minute short film, that'll drive an audience crazy. So it's one of the things that it's It's my biggest pet peeve, and probably every time we do call for entries, and every time we're doing our pre screenings, I will put up a tip on Twitter, please hire a sound person. You know they are going to be your best investment, because you cannot fix bad dialog in post, unless you're Lucasfilm and you have millions of dollars to do that, because it's really, really expensive. So that would be one thing that I would definitely tell filmmakers to make sure that they do. You know, even if that's come out of your own pocket, because in the end, it's going to come out of your pocket and post and or you're just going to be so aggravated that you can't figure out how to do the film right on your final cut, or your Adobe Premiere, or whatever it is you're using, because the problem is, is that you didn't get good sound to begin with. And if you don't get good sound to begin with, you can't make it better.

Dave Bullis 59:09
Yeah, very true. Bill, very true. I've had on Kelly Baker, who he runs angry filmmaker, and he's, he's done all the sound work for Gus Van zandt's movies, and that's something he always whenever he's doing a sort of film class, or, you know, teaching sort of like a film seminar, he always says, Trust me, guys, as a guy who works in film, he goes, and whose specialty is audio, trust me about this, he goes, You have to have good audio, because it's almost like everything becomes, you Know, they usually don't think about it until they need it, right? And it kind of ties in with what we're talking about with marketing. Most people don't realize they need it until they that most people don't realize they don't have until they need it. And it's right, you know, it's like tying into that market. I mean, I've had people on here who said, you know, they they've made movies, And then all of a sudden they realize they're like, We don't have any presence. We have no media presence. We don't have a way to distribute this thing. They weren't even thinking about anything until, you know, obviously they needed it, and at which point, you know, it's probably, it's not only much harder, but it's, it's almost like it's tough enough, but now you got to really, sort of, you know, climb, you know, two mountains, because now you got to build it as you need it. And then you got to, also, you're pitching to festivals, you're trying to get this done. You're trying to, I mean, it's just, I mean, you know, obviously, you know, you've seen it before, as have I and but I think now I hopefully with, you know, as I said before, you know, with this podcast, I hope to not only use it, use this as an education for other people, but also as an education for myself. And you know, I hope my goal is that every episode you know somebody out there, if I can just help you know one person, or one person finds this useful, or whatever, then that episodes of success, you know, but thankfully, more than one, but yeah, and, but thankfully, though I've had, you know, more than it's, it's been, you know, I've gotten a lot of excellent feedback since I started this podcast. And I'm really but, but again, it's just for that issue, man. You know where this is I want this to be like a film school where the teacher is a different teacher every, every single week, there's a different teacher who is telling you not theory, but actual practical advice based upon their years of experience actually doing it.

Bill Ostroff 1:01:33
Oh yeah, yeah, I've thought about it. There's, there isn't a there's like a school, I think in Philly that does, and I think it's Harry casting or something that does it. And they're always looking for like production management and courses like that. And a couple of years ago, I actually had contacted them and said, Look, I'll come in and I'll show you. I'll show whoever, if you have the equipment, I will show people the nuts and bolts on how to build a film from beginning to end. I mean, on top of, on top of, not just social media, but, you know, writing a decent script and and, and getting real actors. Because, I mean, the other thing is, the other thing is the, you know, the getting your mom and dad to act in your film is, is probably the worst thing you can ever do when there are plenty of actors out there that would do it for a good script. And you know, it's, you know, when you've watched, you know, almost 20,000 independent films like I have you, you see things over and over and over again that just are like, Oh my God. Like, you know, amateur error, or you've gone into production too soon, or you're like, Well, you know, I just want to get some I just want to make movie. And I'm like, Oh, don't just I want to make a movie. Make it the best move you can, because you're going to waste your time and your energy, and everyone else is putting together a product that is just going to end up on YouTube, sitting there doing nothing, or wherever it ends up. You know, a lot of times it ends up nowhere. I mean, it's still sitting on hard drives and, well, I mean, from from our inception, it's still sitting on beta SP and 16 millimeter and 35 millimeter. And filmmakers have you know, there's nothing they can do with it anymore. So I think that you know going back to branding, is that you know you have to think about the marketing, because as a filmmaker nowadays, you are your own marketing. Yeah, you know, I mean, first glance film. We are our marketing, you know, because we know how to do it best, and it shows. I mean, if you know 50,000 followers between Twitter and Facebook, and it's not a mistake, I don't buy, I don't buy my followers because I want real followers on people that are going to engage with us. So I think that's, you know, the key. So it's definitely, it is a way to make yourself stand out. But on top of that, you got to make good products. And if you're not making good product, you're amongst the million other people making movies.

Dave Bullis 1:04:21
Yeah, there was a, there's a saying in social media that once read that was the with the invention of social media and how democratic it is, everyone owns marketing now. And you know, to Bill, you know, if you are, if you're on Twitter, and you go to a restaurant and the service sucks and you hate the food, you What do you do? You immediately go to Twitter and say, Oh, this place fucking blows and me, and now you know everyone who's marketing so all your followers.

Bill Ostroff 1:04:45
I may not say it exactly that way.

Dave Bullis 1:04:49
I think you're the Philly has left you, Bill, because you know that. That's it, Philly, that's everyone songs. But I'm just kidding, but I'm just having good fun.

Bill Ostroff 1:04:59
But I say. I may say, I may say something like this, John sucks, but I probably would not. I keep up. I keep up. Yeah, John, you know, you're, if you're more, if you are more like, you know, if you're more sly about it, sometimes it'll get you free meal. That's like that. But you know, I have had my issues with companies, and you know, when you have the amount of followers that we do, they get touched pretty fast. I have to say, you know, it becomes sort of a customer's always right sort of thing. But it's also become sort of like, I see it with Yelp too, you can't, you know, I see restaurants that have hundreds of great, great, great, great experiences, and five stars, and then you see one or two that have like, like two and, you know, one star. And I'm like, I don't know this seems like the person and not the venue, and I think it's just like anything else. It's you got to do your your due diligence if you're going to look at the shitty, you know, the shitty stuff all the time and the negatives, well, then you're probably not looking at it the right way. You know, yes, if the majority of things are negative, then yeah, maybe it's not something you want to purchase or buy or go to ahead, you know, if you know it already. But you know, every server can have an off day. Every bartender can have an off day. Every cook can have an off day. Every film festival can have an off day. And it's, it's unfortunate, it's just the way it works. I mean, you you're not going to get 100% from everybody, 100% of the time. And you have to think about, you know, putting yourself in their their shoes, just for a minute, just to kind of, you know, maybe understand where they're coming from. And I think as a screenwriter, it's something you need to do, you know, because what does complaining get you?

Dave Bullis 1:06:53
Yeah, very true. It's just a waste of time. You know, complaining

Bill Ostroff 1:06:57
It may get your free Dunkin Donuts, coffee, though,

Dave Bullis 1:06:59
Yeah, it's, yeah, you might, you know, Bill, I wanted to ask you to have you ever approached Twitter about verifying your account at first glance film, because I know they open up the verification process.

Bill Ostroff 1:07:11
I'm actually talking with Twitter about it right now. Twitter, Twitter is, it's, it's in a weird situation right now. It's trying not to verify too many people too quickly. They're trying to do they're more about verifying individual people at the moment. So, you know, TV and radio and movies and those kind of people and the big films and that kind of stuff, they verify that stuff pretty quickly. But because, technically, first glance films is not an individual, it's been a little bit harder now that they've started to verify the larger Film Festival. Though we're we're like, right on the cusp. We've been in conversations. I know, you know, I already know the people that I need to talk to about it, and it's just a matter of you know, my goal is, is to try to revisit it when we hit 50,000 and I'm hoping that'll happen within 2017 because we tend to grow about 1000 followers a month or so. But yeah, you know, it's something we're definitely looking into we don't know what verification is going to actually do for us. And then I've talked to people that have gotten verified, and they're like, Well, you know, it just it gives us more set there's more sets of valuable information that you can call from, from Twitter analytics and things like that. But otherwise, they say it's not like they've seen a massive amount of new people jumping in, or they're still having to do the same amount of work to build their communities. But yeah, I mean, it'd be cool to be verified, but business wise, I'm not exactly sure what it would do for us. But yeah, you know, it's definitely something I've looked into. I've also looked into Facebook verification, but I don't know that that's not gonna do us any any good anyway. I mean, you know, we put up a post, put up a post on Facebook, and our 4000 people, 35 see it. I mean, that's awful,

Dave Bullis 1:09:14
Yeah, yeah, it's I've actually tried to get Facebook, I mean, Twitter verified. They've turned me down two times. So now I'm just going to sort of put it by the wayside. And you know, it's something that I thought that, you know, at least I could. I thought there was going to be more of a process to it, but it was basically just like, No, we can't verify it this time. And I gave all external links, not from my website. And I was like, Well, I gave it a shot, because so other people, you know, so, but, oh well.

Bill Ostroff 1:09:44
But we'd much, I'd much rather be, I'd much rather be an Oscar nominating Film Festival than verified.

Dave Bullis 1:09:52
Yes, I concur. I'd rather you know that those are the good victories. you know, and and as we talk about, you know, all these victories, you know, we talked about, you know, your career and everything like that. And you know, I'm just want to say, you know, Bill, it has been, you know, great talking to you about, you know, all this stuff. Because, again, film, because indie film, is changing so much, you know, and it's just good that, you know, we were able to sort of, again, people who have their finger on the pulse of what's happening, you know, people who you know, talk about, you know, micro budget filmmaking and all and all the good things. And you know, obviously, you know, then you get, you know this, your budget grows, you know, piecemeal by piecemeal. As you know, as an independent filmmaker, you know, the idea is, you make a film for, you know, micro budget, I'd say 1000 and then you can build into others, bigger budgets, as you sort of get, you know, more cash. No pun intended, you know, towards yourself, because, again, you're trying to, you know, always further your career. Because, you know, Bill, we've been talking for about an hour now, about an hour and five minutes, and I wanted to ask you, in closing bill, is there anything that we didn't sort of talk about, that maybe wanted to talk about? Or do you have any sort of closing thoughts to put a period at the end this whole conversation?

Bill Ostroff 1:11:13
Um, I think, you know, the one thing that that I think that we maybe glossed over quickly is the fact that you know, every every filmmaker should make their film, it's just that they have to understand that not every film festival is going To accept their stuff, because every film festival has limitations. One of the things that we've tried to do over the last few years, which we think has been really successful, is we added a short online contest. It sort of like goes along with our film festival. So we invite between 20 and 40 other films short that we can't program because we don't have the time to program them into an online portal which is safe and secure, that you know, it's not like people can share your movie. People come in and they watch and they vote, and then you know that winning film ends up in our next film festival. So we've been trying to expand our reach, both online and offline. We're really close to potentially doing, and it depends on logistics and things like that, but we're hoping, with our new partner in Philly, the painted bride Art Center, that we're going to start doing monthly, sort of, what would we call it? Sort of short film networking mixers, and we're looking to do possibly the same thing out in LA on a monthly basis, to allow filmmakers a great screen and a great venue to come out and show their film in a non competitive and a non judgmental way, so sort of like an open mic night in a way. So we're looking into expanding there. We're also talking to lots of again, we talked about this in the very beginning. VOD and other YouTube channels which have millions of subscribers, to potentially create a first glance channel YouTube, we have almost a million views, and we have almost 1000 subscribers. And once we hit 1000 subscribers, we can then offer independent filmmakers an opportunity on our own channel. So, you know, we keep on building and keep on moving forward, and we try to stay with the the technologies stay up with the, you know, the divergence of all the technologies together. So, you know, we're just, we just keep on trying. And, you know, we change every year, just like filmmaking changes every year. And that's, that's always been our goals. You know, we don't want to be stale and stagnant. We want to continue to grow. We want to be able to give value back to filmmakers for their entry fees. We want to be one of the best film festivals out there. You know, having done, you know, has them this year 38 you know, producing 38 film festivals, and having watched, probably, by the end of next year, over 20,000 films, I would say that we're probably one of the only film festivals that does that. You know, go talk to the slam dance and Sundance directors. I'll bet you none of them watch any of these movies that are entered. So, you know, you have somebody with it, with a kid with an eye for indie film watching. And I think that it's something that will bring more confidence to a filmmaker knowing, oh well, it wasn't, it wasn't watched by some 17 year old kid in high school because they raised their hand in the class and said they would volunteer. It's being watched by me. And you know, they can feel, feel free to IMDb me. And LinkedIn, whatever, to connect with me, to see my experience, if they don't believe it. But yeah, I mean, before, before the films in our festival go to the screening committee, they go through me, and they they're watched by me first, and then they're dropped into the next level. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's been an amazing experience. And, you know, I, I would love to be able to offer more to filmmakers down the road, and it's something that we're working on pretty much every day. So, you know, if, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't, but we're gonna keep on, keeping on. And, you know, bringing great films to great audiences on both coasts.

Dave Bullis 1:15:47
And those are some great ideas, Bill, especially about getting the YouTube channel, because I think, you know, that is a great avenue that I, you know, this direct sort of pipeline, you know. And I think that is is phenomenal as well. And it's something you touched on, too, where not every film is going to have a theatrical release. But then again, maybe some of these films shouldn't go theatrical. Maybe they should go, you know, to YouTube or somewhere else. And something Jason Brubaker, too has been on the show talks about, because he says some, sometimes he just says, Put a big Buy Now button on a you know, or put it on YouTube or Vimeo or something like that, and go that route. And you know, again, though, Bill, I think what you're doing is is phenomenal. And again, like I said, you're somebody that I've wanted to have on this show for a while now, and I'm finally glad that you could come on. And what are some of the links where people can find you out online?

Bill Ostroff 1:16:38
Oh, yeah, so you can find us at Facebook, at first glance Film Fest with an F, I believe you can find us on Twitter. At first glance film you can find us on YouTube. I believe at first glance film festivals. You can find us at first glance films.com and you can find us once a year in Los Angeles and once a year in Philadelphia, at our film festival. We're hoping to be back at the painted bride in 2017 and our goal is we're finalizing the crest Westwood in Los Angeles for next year. So, you know, come out and see what we do. You know, see the kind of films that we show, and see why we have the reputation that we do, and see why 97% of the feature films that we do, screening both feature and documentary, end up with distribution. I have a very keen eye. You know, how else do you get a keen eye but with experience? And, you know, I marketed myself to, you know, distribution companies for the last few years. And, you know, basically tell them you're not going to find someone who's watched as many films as I have.

Dave Bullis 1:18:09
Yeah. And you know, you get better by doing. And you know, again, like he was saying, Bill, when you watch so many you know films, you know now you're you know exactly. You know what to look for. Again, you know that they have a, you know, your distinction between films and movies. You know films have a beginning, middle and end, and you know there's some production value to them. And I'm sure you know, you know, sort of by, I'm sure you probably know, within a few what, maybe 30 seconds to a minute, you probably know if this is a professional or an amateur sort of production, right?

Bill Ostroff 1:18:44
Yeah, yeah, I mean, but that doesn't necessarily take away from the value of the project. I don't want people to I don't want people to think that if it's an amateur film, we don't put it in because we do do student film.

Dave Bullis 1:18:58
Yeah, I probably, I worded that a little wrong. I'm sorry about that. I should have said, I should have said, maybe one that would get in, one one that wouldn't get out, you know what I mean, like one that would,

Bill Ostroff 1:19:06
Well, yeah, well, yeah, yeah. Well, I've also learned what my audiences are interested in. So I also look at it as an audience member, and I look at it and going, you know, would would first glance audiences want to watch this. And I think that it's something that that as a filmmaker, too, once you make your movie, you have to think about that look at it from an outsider's perspective. Would an audience on a big, huge screen want to watch what you just made? You know? So, yeah, but again, I don't want anyone not to make their film, because you never know. You never know that the chemistry that you pull together in a group might turn into something bigger and you might work together year after year after year. It's what trauma does. It's what Kevin Smith did for years. It was like the same group of people. You know, go back to. Go back to the 60s and 70s and 80s, and you got Mel Brooks and everyone that he worked with, it was almost always the same people. So you will potentially learn things and network and find friends that potentially maybe, if you're not going to grow, they do, and you know, hopefully they take you with them on your journey or or it's you that goes on the journey. But it's important to have those kind of cogs and those people around you, because if you think that filmmaking is a do it yourself industry, it certainly is not.

Dave Bullis 1:20:38
Yeah, very true, very true bill, and it does take a it's a Spanish proverb. It takes a village to raise a child, and each film is like a child unto itself. And Bill, it's been absolutely phenomenal talking to you, everyone. I'm going to link to all of Bill's social media channels, in the show notes and his website and all we can find him out on Facebook and Twitter and on YouTube. Bill Ostrov, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, sir.

Bill Ostroff 1:21:06
No problem. Thank you, sir.

Dave Bullis 1:21:08
My pleasure. I will talk to you soon Bill, take care.

Bill Ostroff 1:21:10
Bye. Bye.

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BPS 469: Why Most Filmmakers NEVER Finish Their Movies with Rob Dimension

April 30, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There is a peculiar illusion that haunts the creative mind—the belief that someday, conditions will be perfect. That someday, the right gear will arrive, the right connections will appear, the right moment will unfold like a carefully written script. But what if that moment never comes? What if the only thing that ever truly exists… is now?

On today’s episode, we welcome Rob Dimension, a filmmaker, creator, and storyteller who has built his journey not on permission, but on action. His path is not polished or romanticized—it is grounded in trial, error, frustration, and relentless forward motion. And perhaps that is what makes it so valuable.

There’s a moment in every creative life where ideas begin to pile up. Scripts unwritten. Projects unstarted. Conversations about “what could be” that never quite cross into reality. Rob cuts through this with a kind of blunt clarity that feels almost uncomfortable. He reminds us that the barrier isn’t access—it’s execution. “If you’re not doing it,” he says, “you don’t want to.”

It’s a statement that strips away every excuse.

Because today, the tools are everywhere. Cameras in our pockets. Editing software at our fingertips. Distribution platforms open to anyone willing to press upload. The gatekeepers have changed, but the hesitation remains. And so the question becomes less about opportunity—and more about willingness.

What Rob illuminates so clearly is that creativity is not a grand event. It is not a lightning strike of genius followed by immediate success. It is repetition. It is showing up again and again, often without recognition, often without reward. It is three hours of work for seventy seconds of finished content. It is releasing something into the void… and hearing nothing back.

And yet, this is the work.

There is also a deeper lesson here about integrity. Not the kind we speak about in abstract terms, but the kind that reveals itself in small decisions. Do you settle for “good enough”? Or do you redo the shot? Do you rush the project? Or do you take the time to make it right?

Rob is unwavering on this point—“good enough” is a trap. It is the quiet compromise that slowly erodes the quality of the work and, more importantly, the standard you hold for yourself. And once that standard drops, everything else follows.

But perhaps the most sobering reality comes in his discussion of crowdfunding and audience-building. There is a romantic notion that if the idea is good enough, people will come. That support will appear, that funding will follow. But the truth is far more grounded. Trust must be built. Value must be demonstrated. Effort must be visible.

No one invests in potential alone.

This is where many creators falter. They want the outcome without the process. The recognition without the repetition. The success without the structure. And when it doesn’t come, they blame the system, the market, or the audience—anything but the work itself.

And yet, there is something profoundly liberating in Rob’s perspective. Because if the barrier is internal, then it is also within our control. You don’t need permission to begin. You don’t need a perfect plan. You don’t even need certainty.

You just need to start.

There is a quiet power in taking that first step. In making something small, imperfect, and real. Because from that, momentum begins. Skills develop. Confidence grows. And slowly, almost imperceptibly, the gap between where you are and where you want to be begins to close.

And perhaps that is the deeper truth of creativity—not that it leads somewhere extraordinary, but that it transforms the one who commits to it.

So the question is not whether you have the resources, the time, or the connections.

The question is simple.

Will you begin?

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:07
You know Robin, you're a person I've always wanted to talk to. You know, you and I actually met a couple years ago, even before I started the podcast, even before I started, you know, my journey in filmmaking, because we actually meant, when I believe you were a manager, I think was, what is it PWA, ?

Rob Dimension 1:07
TWA, yeah. TWA in Voorhees New Jersey, right?

Dave Bullis 1:07
What was the one in Pottstown Pa?

Rob Dimension 1:07
Oh, PWF,

Dave Bullis 1:07
PWF that was it. Yes, that was the one we actually met there first, and we all those years ago,

Rob Dimension 1:07
That was myself and Steve Carino that owned that company.

Dave Bullis 1:07
Yeah, well, that was a great you know, I remember the first show I ever met you at was, it was Masato Tanaka and Shinji Otani versus, I think Carino and CW Anderson, that was an amazing show, by the way. Okay, great. Yeah, vast energy, yeah. And, you know, I we actually met briefly after the show, and I doubt you remember me all the way back then, but then, you know, now here, fast forward. What? 10, 12-14, years, here we are.

Rob Dimension 1:07
Yeah, it's been a long time, for sure, it's been, I think it's been 14 years, to be honest, because I'm 16 years now in being involved with pro wrestling. So that was probably 2003 I'm gonna guess ish somewhere in that area. I'd have to look back at it, but it's probably been around that time. So yeah, it's been, for myself in wrestling. It's been a crazy long time. You know, I've seen and done lots of stuff, so it's been very, very crazy.

Dave Bullis 1:08
Yeah, and, you know, I wanted to just bring that up, because I very rarely do. I actually have ever met anybody who's on the podcast. Usually it's, you know, people from all over the world. And it's just funny though that because now you're like, the you're, you know, I'm 116 117 episodes deep, and you're like, the third or fourth person I've had on who I've actually met in real life.

Rob Dimension 3:51
That's great though you're actually, you know, you're, you're, I mean, podcasting is really, I don't know. I feel like it's, it's a flooded market, but it's a very lost art, because so many people go on, and I don't know if they really put together the best show, but I feel like you're trying to create. You're trying to bring positivity to a lot of filmmaking and stuff too, which is great, because, you know now, with everyone having cameras, anybody can really make anything. You know what I mean, and and I think that there needs to be some sort of motive for people to want to go out and actually make movies and put forth positive effort. You know what? I mean? There's so much that can be done out there. It's insane.

Dave Bullis 4:29
Yeah, and one thing I always tell people is, you know, there, there's a, I think it's a half a million or something, that they're of podcasts on YouTube, I don't know, YouTube, iTunes, and out of all of them, the number they usually stop at, like, I think, seven episodes or five episodes, and they usually stop so there's a ton of podcasts. Some are just, you know, they're artifacts now, legacy, you know. And they, there's nowhere you know, they're they just sort of given up. And other podcasts, you know, have just, you know, kept, kept going on. Yeah, and you know, that's I've always wanted to dig deeper into why, you know, and one of the reasons why, I mean, I've done podcasts in the past that we've had to quit, and you know, Reason is time, time and logistics. So whenever I'm telling people about podcasting and putting them together with, especially friends, you know, to make sure that everyone's into it, because, you know, you don't want to be sitting there, right? You know, everyone in the same room, you've driven, like, half an hour to an hour, and then you're like, Man, where the hell is Dave at he was supposed to be here, you know, half an hour ago. And it's a lot like filmmaking, you know, Rob, it's, it's, you want to have people that you can depend on, if you're, if you're going to take it seriously,

Rob Dimension 5:36
Yeah, you know, I've had several ventures in podcasting, myself and Steve Carino, who we've talked about, we did the extreme odd couple podcasts, and that was really successful. But what happened was, is that Steve moved to North Carolina, so I was more of a fan of being able to podcast with someone in the same room, more than just via telephone, you know, or via Skype or whatever. And they just kind of fell apart, you know, where he I don't know, like, I feel like the what made the extreme, odd couple podcasts successful was that we both were kind of grumpy, you know, and, and he had gotten married and had a new a new son, and he just wasn't, wasn't miserable. And to be honest, I wasn't miserable, you know. So it just kind of like lost some magic. We kind of like lost things to talk about, because our interests really aren't the same. I mean, while we both were involved with pro wrestling, and that's kind of where it stops, you know, he likes baseball, I really don't, you know, I like horror movies, he has no interest in that whatsoever. With the comedies I like, he really doesn't like we both, you know, has interest in stand up comedy, but that's kind of where it stops. And then other ventures that I had, I was involved with Monster mania radio, and that became a time issue, just like you had said. And then I've had other opportunities with people, and they just kind of flake out, you know. And I know that I try to do one on my own, and I really, I really tried to make it more of of a 45 minute sketch show with characters and stuff. It was really a bizarre kind of thing. That was my last venture. And I was like, you know, why am I doing this the podcast? And why am I not doing this on video? Instead, that kind of brought me to where I am at now, where I'm kind of trying to do that, but podcasting, it really is very proper dedication, you know. And I do agree that, I think that they said originally that the average podcast gets like seven listeners. So if you're doing more than seven listeners, you're doing great, and it's very It hurts, your bruises, your ego, you know, you know, you put together, put forth this effort to make this great podcast, you get like, six listeners and just like, What am I doing wrong? And not that you're doing anything wrong, just that there's an array of, you know, material that's out there, and everyone because of the fact that you can actually podcast in your phone now, there's, there's so much variety that's out there, and everybody's doing it. It's crazy.

Dave Bullis 8:01
Yeah, very, very true. You know, that was something a couple episodes ago I had on Paul petito. And Paul is a college professor, and he was saying, he was saying the same thing. He goes, you know, all my students always ask me, How the hell do you stand out? You know, how do you go on iTunes? How do you get that and and I said, you know, I've had so many people on the show, and they each have their own method of how they have how they went about doing it. And some use aggregators, you know, some, some basically just use the concept to sell it, because it was so outlandish. And they knew going in that this was an outlandish concept and that people were just going to talk about it. And you know, to doing podcasting now where you know, I mean, I didn't even know how many podcasts were out there. And you know now that, you know, people sort of come to me and they asked me about, you know, starting a podcast. I've been doing this for about two years now, and they say, you know, what? What mic should we get? What board should we get? And that's why I'm writing this whole because there's all these articles I'm writing, and they're all free, and I just go into the basics, like, you know, because I don't want to, I think if anyone's out there, you know, who's thinking about starting a podcast, I don't want them to rush out and buy all the really expensive microphones. And, you know what I mean, like, I think that there should be a sort of a litmus test where you test it out for, like, you know, 1010, or so episodes, and if you like it, and you have the funds go out and buy all the expensive stuff. But if you, I mean, if you're just going to start, you know, you might as well just use the basic stuff and just see if you like it. If you know what I mean, Rob

Rob Dimension 9:28
Yeah, I do know you mean. I feel that what happens a lot of times is we live in an immediate society where we need to have results immediately. We need to know things immediately. No one really wants to work for it. So, you know, I actually also have done the same thing where I wrote notes on Facebook that here's how you party podcasts, and it's very, very simple. You get yourself a microphone, you get yourself audacity, and you sign up for a hosting site, whether it you know, blog talk or whoever. You know, there's it's really simple, and you just learn how to edit your podcast. Go from there. But I also feel that people need to do their homework, and I think that that's what when you have when you're successful. I feel like you're an example of someone that's done their homework and didn't rush into it. When you're not successful, most times it's because you didn't do your homework, you asked a lot of questions to the wrong people, or you maybe just took the cheap way out. And sometimes you just can't do that. Sometimes you have to put forth effort. I know that, like, I just started on YouTube for for example, we've always had stuff on YouTube, but I started dedicating time to that. And so I've done homework about how to make, you know, thumbnail cards and just every little possible thing about what the duration has to be to get the most views and stuff like that. And I, I put forth a lot of effort. You also have to put forth money, you know, I put forth, you know, 30 to $50 a week of just Facebook advertising to try and get people to get subscribers. And I'm not really looking to be, you know, YouTube famous or anything else I actually, you know, went on like a mini rant on Twitter about this, is that I just want people to be aware that, you know, there's so many people that want to create, and everyone just sits there, and no one really moves. It's like, Oh, I really want to do this. I really want to do that. Well, what's stopping you? Like, I'm creating content on YouTube for free, like I'm not, I'm not monetizing it, because I really don't have much of an audience yet. So what's the purpose of monetizing it? And some people say, Well, you know, it's gotta be worth something. But in the in the beginning, I feel like I just want to share, I just want to create, you know? And so that's kind of the concept of trying to learn what you want to do, and then kind of starting out from scratch and going forward. And I'm not young, you know, I'm 45 so I don't know. I definitely think I'm the the right demographic for a creator on YouTube. You know, most of the creatives creators are, you know, late teens, early 20s. That seems to be the demographic of viewers also. So I'm, I would say maybe, you know, looking at an older fan base. But I feel like the material that I'm creating is stuff that you might see on Adult Swim, or maybe geared towards, like, you know, I don't want to say a Saturday live, but maybe, you know, just it's a different type of of material that's out there. It's not simple vlogging or anything like that. And that's to say that that's simple, but I'm trying to actually put forth, you know, write scripts, have content, and I'm doing it 234, times a week. So it's a lot different,

Dave Bullis 12:42
Yeah, you know, yeah. And that's great too, because you hit on something, which is you just wanted to put out, you know, great material, you know, you wanted to do what you wanted to do. And I think that's how a lot of YouTubers got started, you know, I actually know the person who represents some of these YouTube personalities now, because they all have lawyers now, because, years ago, a friend of mine, his name is, is Chris Peter Minko. And Chris actually used to represent Numa Numa. Do you remember the Numa Numa guy?

Rob Dimension 13:13
I don't know. Okay, I never, I never watched YouTube like and I think I had the same perception that I feel like a lot of people has, and I what I found is that not not to change the subject, but what I found is that most people associate YouTube with young audiences, music videos and just people complaining on on YouTube or doing dumb things. And there's really a whole wide, I mean, for every one minute, from what I understand, every one minute, there's 48 hours of new content added every minute to YouTube. And it's, it's mind blowing, how much stuff is out there. And if I mean not to say that, you know, like they have the deep dark web, but there's actually a deep dark YouTube, we know when you start to chase that rabbit down the rabbit hole, and you're, you know, clicking for this and clicking through that, and all of a sudden, you're just like, What did I just watch? There's so much variety that's out there. It's crazy. And I feel like, for me, I'm excited about it, because I've seen so much creativity that, I mean, of course, there is the stuff that I just described, like the people complaining and doing dumb stuff, but it gets views. And I'm not just particularly looking for views for hahas. I'm looking for views to build a brand so that when I do turn around and make my next film, that there is a built in audience there that I can capitalize on.

Dave Bullis 14:39
Yeah, you know. And that's a very good point too. Because, excuse me, I, you know, I thought about that too, even with this podcast. You know, at least there is a, you know, a fan base. If you ever did want to turn around and crowdfund something, there is at least a fan base. Who knows who you are. Because, again, you know, I always tell people this, you know, crowdfunding is, is, is sales and. Sales are all about relationships. And then, you know, I on my, I don't know if you get this, Rob, but on my Twitter, constantly, I'm getting people saying, hey, check out this. And I'm like, Who the hell are you? These people like some, some random person from like Norway is telling me to check out their project about mirrors. Or some company from Japan is telling me to check out their new robot toy. I'm like, what? How did they even find me? Are they just going through Twitter and going, you know, mass per, you know, going, copy paste, copy paste. Well, yeah, that's exactly what they're doing. They're just, you know, pasting tweet, send that out, you know, and that, you know. And I, honestly, I think they're the same people who their crowdfunding fails, and then they go, Oh, gee, crowdfunding doesn't work. And, you know, that's because they didn't. They didn't focus on their pre launch. They didn't, which is, you know, building that fan base up.

Rob Dimension 15:47
Yeah, you know, crowdfunding has changed. I crowdfunded three times, four short films, and was successful every time. Our last film rabbit hole, we literally met our budget within, I think, like, 30 hours, which was crazy. And I was, you know, I'm really grateful for that, but for me, I feel like there's a couple different layers of it. Is that one of not doing really horror right now, and I'm focused more on comedy, which is weird so, and I'm not trying to abandon that fan base, but now I kind of have to kind of start over from scratch a little bit and build on to new people, because you're going to get like, let's say my audience is is split now, because 50% of people say, Well, if he's not doing four films, then I don't really, really care. And the other 50% are like, okay, cool. So let's say now that I started with a pool of 100 people, just as a number. Now I'm only at 50. Now I have to build another new 50 of people that actually care about comedy, that I might be able to catch some of that new 50 that actually care about or also that actually can, can kind of depending on where I go in the future, it might benefit, might benefit me also. So there's a ton of pride, and I do feel like I know that I get more of people messaging me on on Facebook for like, Oh, check out my check out my thing and stuff. And I do feel like a lot of people crowd fund the wrong way. The days of of you know, people donating $100 for a DVD are completely over, completely you. You don't have your your base perk, she you should have $1 perk, a $5 perk, a $25 perk, or either 25 it's usually the average for a DVD. And you know, you can do 10 for a digital download, and then you can work your way up and stuff, but people have to be. The big problem with with crowdfunding now, since we were talking about it, is that people don't finish, people don't come through at the end. So there's so much, so many crowdfunding projects that are out there that Who do you trust? And that's the hard thing is like, I feel like I have a proven track record. So it's a little bit easier. If I was to say, like, hey, I want a crowdfund for 10,000 for this movie. I think I can probably get 10,000 for it, because you need, first of all, you need to have a slick if you're filming, if you're making movie, you need to have a really slick trailer. And I've said this for years, the trailer that you're going to put together for your for your pitch, your pitch trailer is going to be an example of what the finished product is going to look like. So if you don't have something that looks good, if you shot it, it looks shoddy, but it's not lit well, if the sound doesn't sound well, if there's no thought put into it, if you're just putting the camera on you and you're talking, it's not going to work. You have to literally spice it up, which means, you know, if someone put, if you watched, if you watch TV, and made a commercial McDonald's, and McDonald's showed just one of their normal hamburgers that you get when you actually go to the store, you go there, you would say, I don't want that. But then, you know, when they have it artistically done with all the lighting and all the bleached colors and everything else, the dyed lettuce knowledge, and you're like, oh, man, that's what I want. It's the same theory you're just creating, you know, a look, and you're trying to show people, this is what I can do. So you can invest in me and know that I get it. And it does help that you have a brand like we're discussing, it does help if you have that and people, and you built trust with people, because if you build a trust with people, then they know in the end that you're not going to screw them. And that was the one thing that I was really curious about, was like, Look, if I'm taking anyone's money, I'm a very honest person in real life. I just am. I have then I, you know, I went to a Catholic school and saw the ninth grade and, you know, I did everything. I'm an adult. I'm a parent. You know, my kids are good. The whole thing, like I'm just not a scumbag. And sadly, that there's a lot of people that do off of the crowdfunding that just take the money and then never complete the project. And that makes me crazy, because I'm like, you're, you know, you're mucking up the water. You know, crowdfunding water, at one point was was crystal clear, and now it's just muddy and murky, and I see it so many times, especially within the horror community, but it's everywhere. It's just because I'm more involved in that community that I see people on the way at the year later, I'm still waiting. Oh, this guy just banners. You know what I mean? Like you just see it all the time, and it makes me crazy. You have to fulfill the promises that you make. And it's, it's really not about, I mean, you think anybody could crowd fund anybody, but if it looks slick and you're and it's not always a guarantee. If you hire, you know, a B actor that and you know your favorite horror movie, if you hire that person, it's not a guarantee that you're still going to make your budget. You have to really collaborate with other people and put together a solid project to make sure that you're going to get what you asked for from me. I worked with artists to make sure that I had artwork available. I, you know, posters. I worked with sound design guys I had, you know, and a lot of times the art, the the actors that we dealt with, our last one that we did, we did a dark comedy called Mortimer Trump played, you can actually see on our YouTube channel, I'll plug it real quick and go to youtube.com, backslash Rob mentioned she go to that, and you see, like, what had happened was I had, I just, I didn't crowdfund for that at all, but we use The sag actor in that, and I really like it, but because it wasn't, or it didn't do well, and I said to my wife, I was like, you know, I don't think I'm going to bother crowdfunding, because I really didn't have any special effects. The amount of money that we do affects was like 1000 bucks. And I was like, we'll just cover that. And then I tried to do something different, and I see a lot of other people doing it now, where I pre sold copies ahead of time. I had shot some stuff. I had some stuff in a can, so I was able to put together, like a little trailer, and I pre sold copies of the DVD, not for anything higher than what they would be. I think it was like 10 bucks. So, because it's short film, so I was like, am I pre film for 10 bucks? I'll make it. I was able to pre sell. I had a limited edition DVD cover that I was able to offer, and I think I offered an extra disc at the same time of whatever I had on it. I don't remember it was last year. And so, you know, I tried to put forth the effort, and we were successful in the with that. And I feel like that's another avenue that you could take with crowdfunding, is that you can pre sell. It's not always trying to get all the money up front. You could work on the project, and then, you know, on the back end, try to recoup some of the money that you may be invested. Just go in knowing that there's a really good chance you're not going to make it. But in order to create sometimes you have to, you have to invest in yourself, and I'm a big advocate of that. If you don't, if you don't invest in yourself, why would anyone else? That's probably the best saying that I think I've heard in in quite a while,

Dave Bullis 23:13
And I agree wholeheartedly. Rob, you know, if you people ask me about crowdfunding, you know, I started crowdfunding when Indiegogo was in its infancy stages, and I used it to crowdfund two projects. And every other question was, what, what's crowdfunding? And the next question was, what's, what's Indiegogo? So now, you know, when everyone has their own project, you know, it's like, it's, it's maddening, because now I'm like, you know, when I remember when I started doing it, everyone was like, Oh, that'll never work. You know, the crowdfunding is never gonna become big. And now look at it. You know, the word Kickstarter has entered the lexicon. And you know, it is, you know, and so. But what I'm trying to say is, whenever somebody comes to me to ask me about crowdfunding, I always tell them, how much money are you going to invest yourself into this project? And they usually say, well, well, well, nothing. Because they don't want to invest. They don't they don't want to pay to for anybody, like an experienced cinematographer, to come help shoot the pitch video. They don't want to have anybody come to help to graphic design. They don't want to have a crowdfunding consultant come in and tell them, you know, this is how you have to do this. They want to just, basically, you know, pre planned for like a week, launch the thing, and then someone in just money, drops $50,000 into their lap, and then they go, Okay, now we have the money to make what we are promised. And I say, you need, you have to figure out a way to get that seed money. Because even with like veg, even with like startups, whether they don't go to VCs right away, venture capitalists, they go to the first people that they always go to are themselves, and if they don't have any money, they go to their friends families. And if they don't have any money, they go to angel investors and grants and stuff like that. So I always tell them, though, if you think of a crowdfunding campaign now, like you were like, like you were starting a actual. Startup, a lot of the same tactics are the same across the board. There's parallels, because you have to figure out, you know, where are we going to get this seed money? How are we going to do this? And you and basically, it's the same thing as even auditing, you know, you have to, you know, some startups, they order, or most startups audit themselves monthly with a crowdfunding campaign. That's the same thing. Because you're, you know, you're, you're, you have a movie in mind, let's say, and we have to have, we have to raise the funds, and then we have to start the shooting dates. We have to set this, you know, and then when we end this, okay, now, when are we going to distribute it to every, everybody? So you got to have, you know, a pretty detailed plan in place. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. And, you know, you mentioned when, you know, people don't come through with their crowdfunding perks. You know, I've seen that too. And where I've seen that most is in when they crowdfund for, like, video games, or they crowdfund for like, some kind of odd, maybe like an oddity, because there was a, there was a guy who crowdfunded for some book, and the book was a huge success, and he didn't know how to deal with it, like he literally did not. He couldn't, like, figure out how to, how to deal with it. And he actually told people, you're never getting your books. I, you know, I can't deal with how to get all these, these orders, you know, made. I mean, it was just, you know, it's a shame, because some of that stuff is, you know, bloggers pick that up. Journalists pick that up and it makes, it does. It makes, you know, like you said, it muddies the waters of crowdfunding for everybody.

Rob Dimension 26:26
Yeah, and I feel like, if you're gonna crowdfund for a film, you need to think about pre the filming and then the posts. So after you're movie, what are you gonna do? And what makes me crazy? It makes me crazy when someone crowd funds and to finish the movie, and then they crowdfund again to complete the film. That makes me crazy like you that just prove that you are a core planner. Proves that you are a poor planner. You have to if you're going to crowdfund, crowdfund for the total in the beginning. Just make it simple. This is what I need. And if you're going to lay out a game plan, this is what, this is what I need. Let's say you're gonna make a short film, and you need 5000 bucks, okay, to create this film. Now you also have to play and say, Okay, well, I need X amount of dollars for the DVD. I need X amount of dollars for the person that's creating the DVD. I need X amount of dollars for the artist that's creating a cover for the DVD and the supply I need X amount of dollars and a distilment to film festivals. I need X amount of dollars for to make the t shirt for that promise. You need to make sure that you completely write out a detailed list of everything that you need so you don't have to go back to that well, because nothing is worse than saying, Hey guys, I know that I asked for this amount, but now I need to ask for a little bit more, because it makes you look incompetent. And it's the truth. It really does. It does. It's very unprofessional. And no one wants to give money to someone that's unprofessional. They just don't, you know, it's very, very it's a flooded market for for crowdfunding, you really have to have your shit together to be honest. And if you don't, you're not going to succeed. And I see so many people try and fail, and they'll they'll complain about how no one supports anybody, and blah, blah, blah, and it's like, Look, man, you're missing the points. Look at what you've done compared to what other people do. And I'll talk about another thing is that people get really mad when someone like Rob Zombie crowd funds. And the bottom line is this, the same person that's going to crowdfund to mine is probably not going to crowdfund to Rob Zombie Rob Zombie crowdfunding. He has this built in audience. He's smart. He's using that money. And if the fans want to invest that money, who are we to tell people how to spend their money? That makes me crazy. If Rob Zombie wants to crowdfund, let him crowd fund. Let him. Let him use that. Let him use that platform to make the movie that he wants for the people that want to see it. Because he's not making that movie if those people don't want to see it. That's what he's doing. It for the same reason that you are sure is it was crowdfunding designed for the little guy, absolutely. But if he has the capability to reach out to his fans, and his fans want to pay for it, then let him do it if, if anything, it's only going to draw more attention to crowdfunding. There's a positive to that. It's going to draw more attention to crowdfunding and successful crowd punch. Oh, did you hear about Rob Zombie? Oh yeah, his new movie, 31 I didn't hear about that. Oh yeah, you raised money through the fans. Oh, really. How did he do that? You know? I mean, like, that's kind of how communication starts. If the people on the lower level get so mad when he when someone like him uses that instead of saying like, Hey, let me see what he's doing. So I can capitalize on that, and I can duplicate what he's doing on a smaller level and generate the money, the money that I need. I can make a flip trailer. I can talk to artists. There's comic book artists everywhere your local comic book shop. Hey, is there any local artists around here? Yeah, well, and then talk to them. Chances are they're starving, just like you are. And if you say, hey, look, I want to do, like, some some art for this, for this thing. Okay, cool. You know, might cost you 100 bucks. So now it's $100 out of your pocket to invest to make it look a little bit cleaner, you know, I mean, like, there's so much, so many things you can do to add to your project that can make it look as fancy as Rob zombies. It's not like, you know, sure he has money in his pocket to be able to put it forth. But if you're trying to raise $10,000 for a film, you can make. You can raise $10,000 for a film by making a solid effort and making it look good and making it work look like it's worth 1000 It's just that when you when you want to raise 10,000 bucks, and you gather your friends and have no lighting and have shitty sound, and you film it on your phone, your crowdfunding video. No one's going to donate because it sucks. It's the God's honest truth. And I feel all the time, you know. People say, Well, hey, share my project, and I'll just go look terrible man, like you didn't put forward in any effort. And they go, Yeah, you know. But we just need money to get started, you know. Well, then maybe you need to make smaller projects to build a portfolio so that you can then go on to the next project. You know, you can. You could use YouTube to capitalize on that, where you could make a three minute short film with something with some of your friends, and have lighting and learn about that, and you could put that online, and maybe that gets 3000 views, then you could be like, Oh, that worked out pretty good. Let's do another let's do another one, and really not invest much. And then all of a sudden, you can turn around, in a year's time, and you can say, hey, look, this is what I've done now, this is what I want to do. And people be like, oh, yeah, I saw that. That was really good. It's just baby steps. It's not like instant gratification. You're just not going to be able to not be a filmmaker, and then say, oh, I want to make a movie now that doesn't happen that way. You have it's a gradual process. If you are a filmmaker and you're taking the cheap way out, don't always be mad when when you don't meet your goals, because you're not always going to meet your goals. Sometimes you have to say, Well, I wanted 5000 that gave me three. So now what can I do for 3000 instead of being like, Oh, well, you know, I blame Rob Zombie? Well, you can't just blame Rob Zombie. There's a million factors that are going to fall into it. So, you know, you kind of have to take some responsibility on your stuff. A lot of people don't want to do that. So I know I went off on a rant, but it's just.

Dave Bullis 32:33
Rob it's okay. I actually it happens on this podcast. I bring out the rants and people. So the other body as like, I bring it.

Rob Dimension 32:42
I'm very passionate about, you know, about maintaining integrity in any, in any kind of genre that we're in. And you know, for me, the horror genre is very, very it's important to me, because I love I've grown up on horror films my entire life, entire life. And when I started, you know, I've spoken about a lot of times that I was depressed, and when I was really depressed, my life was falling apart. I wrote a movie, and I made that movie, and I was fortunate where I had enough of an audience already built in, because I had done things within the horror community where it wasn't really difficult to raise. I think I raised, like, 2000 bucks for no planning around which is also available on YouTube for free. And, you know, I just wanted to make this movie that was kind of my life, you know, like, in essence, like it's, it's all the the images and stuff that are on there is, like, in some warped way, it's part of me. And then when I had success with that, I was like, oh, okay, well, let me try this other movie. I did baggage and but I was fortunate where I had a guy that, you know, had 25 years of cinematography experience, you know, help me. I had a director that Jeremiah KIPP, who was fantastic. He was there to help me. I was able to be the actor. And we really didn't need a lot of actors as part of it, because it's really a one story. We, you know, we had a good special effects guy, we had lots of health we were able to get a house, you know, for free, you know, like everything that we were able to get, we just kind of fell into place. So a movie that would have cost me 20 5000s because of the cinematography and all the bills and stuff that we would have had cost me like 4000 so I was able to put forth this great movie. And sometimes you're going to fall into opportunities like that. And then with rabbit hole, I worked with another guy named Michael Mahoney, and that was another film where it just, it did really, really well, because it's so bizarre and so weird. And again, we just kind of fell into the right people. So, you know, you kind of got a, you have to have some sort of of pride. And I do take a lot of pride in it. Now that I think that I'm kind of venturing towards comedy, I feel like I have a lot of pride in that too. That's why I won't put I'll never, ever say, like, if you're shooting with me, you'll never, you're never hear me say that's good enough, because that's just not the. Mentality that you want to have, oh, that's good enough. That's that's pretty good. It's good enough for what I'm doing. That should never be the case. It should be Is it is it good, or is it not? If it was not good, then redo it. If it's good, then run with it. So, you know, a lot of times I'll jump to YouTube, because that's, I know that. I know how much time that we really have left. But so I started YouTube, and this has been, like a year coming where I just kept saying, like, I want to do it. I want to do it. Aren't really what do. And finally I just was like, You know what? I was home by myself. I had the camera. I have all the sound equipment, I have everything else. I was like, let me just start filming stuff. So I started filming stuff on my own, and put putting together, like, 2 3 4, minute short shorts, like, you know, not really short films, but really weird things. And I'm kind, I can draw, okay, so I was able to do some special effects stuff. Like, because I'm, I'm influenced by a guy named Rob Schwab who did, like, Scud. He did the Sarah Silverman program. He's the director of the New Lego movie that's coming out, Lego Movie two, and a lot of people don't know who he is. And he did this rawless animation stuff back in like, the early 2000s which I just I flipped out or still, and I was like, I just want to do stuff like that. I, you know, like, like, Kim and Eric did their awesome show, like, very, very bizarre stuff. I want to do stuff like that. So that's kind of like where I started out at and now, you know, it's kind of warped into more stuff where I do some stuff, you know, like with which you would typically see on YouTube, but like taste tests or food challenges. But at the same time, I'm making shorts, you know, and different things, and I'm really happy the way that it's going, you know, but, but I'm just the one guy army most times, you know, it's, most of the time, it's just me with, you know, maybe my son will be here, and he'll be able to, he's 16, maybe he'll be able to help run the camera, or my wife, she can help run the camera. She can be in it, or whatever. So there's only, like, two or three people that are involved, and then often I'll edit it, and I'll do all the sign, sound design and stuff. But what it's really doing is being a filmmaker. I never was one person. You know, I was, I started out as a writer, and I was like, I'll write these movies. And I was an actor, and because of my wrestling background, I could act in front of a camera at least decent. So I was like, okay, cool. And writing, I got, I started out as a writer, like I worked for the Warner Brothers network, like when they first started lighting commercials, and I never really talked about that, but that's actually how I got my start. And then, you know, for directing, I just bought myself a camera and started messing around with the camera. And for lighting, I'm still learning your lighting, you know, lighting is really hard. And then for editing, I was like, Well, I can learn how to edit a little bit, you know. And then for sound design, I was like, Oh, I can kind of mess with this or mess with that, and it's just building pieces. So now what happens is, let's say that next year I want to make, I have like, three scripts for actual short films that I want to make. One could be a web series. And it's like, well, next year, I don't really need anybody, besides some actors, to film what I want to film, because I'm learning how to do it all on my own. You know, that's learning every aspect. And of course, I need other people, because I really would need, like, a sound design guy, and I would need other people involved, but then I feel like confident enough in my in my filmmaking experience and and everything else that I'm creating enough content, I feel like the editing, the editing style, is much different on YouTube than it is in in film editing on YouTube is much faster paced, and it can be way more abrupt, and it's acceptable there. Then compared to editing on film, because editing on film, people don't want to see like jump cuts and stuff constantly, but on YouTube, that's acceptable because you have a limited timeframe. You know you only really are going to get they say it's like two minutes and 40 seconds is like average, like view time for one video, and sometimes it's a lot less. I know that on some of mine, I get like, 33 seconds, like, sometimes it's a hit or a miss. So, you know, it's just a matter of trying to fit that. But I'm trying to learn as much as possible so that it makes me a more well rounded filmmaker, and plus, it's allowing me to be creative and do whatever I want, and with really, no real cost. I mean, we did a Ghostbusters episode where we did, like a short Ghostbusters thing and and all of the special effects. I drew all of this. Instead of having CGI, I drew Slimer. I drew the safe off car spell a man, you know, like and painted them and stuff. And then for the Ghostbusters outfit, I took a $5 painters outfit and spray painted it tan, and then in marker and cardboard, I wrote my name on the lapel and the Ghostbuster symbol and everything else then it should. I think all that's acceptable on YouTube, but it would not be acceptable on film. Obviously, I would have to take a different route, unless people knew ahead of time. Hey, this is what his style is. You know, I want to see more of that. So it's kind of like just kind of testing the waters. But I I just, on Friday yesterday, I released birthing an idea, and if no one thought it's the true creative process, and I've done some stuff on there, I did a Pokemon episode, because I find Pokemon is so bizarre. And now everyone's playing Pokemon Go. And I do a new thing called acting with Andy, which is, you know, basically like the Saturday Night Live skit with a guy that believed he is the world's best actor, and he's teaching acting, and he's terrible, but he's he doesn't understand that he's terrible. Everyone else gets it. He done. And again, that's just me in front of a camera, you know, with fake teeth and, you know, parted hair and in a Hawaiian shirt and the sweat pants that are up to my chest and, you know, and Croc, thinking that I'm, like, this amazing actor. Of course, I'm not, you know, at all. It really is this just taking bits from people that I've worked with in the past that drive me crazy, because they think they know what they're talking about. I'm just handling them, you know what I mean. So hopefully people will check out the channel, because I'm trying to look for subscribers so I can keep creating. Because I expressed this today. It sucks, and it's just like, you know, it's just like the podcast. That's why they stop, because you're just like, ah, you know, I like birthing idea was 74 seconds long. Okay? It took me an hour to just film, and then it took me another two hours to juice sound design and edit. So there's three hours worth of time in there for 74 seconds, like yesterday, like at the end of the day, I had like 30 views, and I was like, What the hell you know? Like, it's, it's, it's crazy to try and get people to watch. So if people go to rob dimension.com, the link is there. If they go to youtube.com, back black, Rob dimension, they can check out the stuff on there. And if you like it, give it a like, subscribe, give it a comment, you know, like all that stuff has a YouTube has a built in algorithm, just like Facebook and just like you know Instagram has now, where you know that stuff, the stuff that's seen more and that's that has more interaction, floats the top, so the likes and the subscribe and the comments and the shares and all that stuff. All that stuff helps, and I do put it on Facebook also, but Facebook has a very weird algorithm where they don't like you sharing videos, especially on your fan page. Like, if you notice now, on your fan page, you can't even share videos from there that you have to upload them direct to that otherwise they won't let you submit through YouTube on Facebook fan pages anymore. So it's, it's, you know, and I spent money. I've spent, you know, 50, $60 a week to try to get people to click on it. But it's tough, man, it's tough, tough, tough stuff to to get people to to watch. So all I can do is stay, you know, like, and I'm always, I'm always on deadline, always, you know, against the deadline where I'm, you know, for I think I new content goes up every Wednesday and Friday. So on Wednesday this week will be a new acting with Andy. With Friday will be a new dimension chat. So I'm already planning what I'm going to do, because I'm going to put up extra content on Monday and Tuesday, probably, and then I have Wednesday for acting with Andy, which I'll shoot on Monday next Friday, I'll shoot on Wednesday. So I'm always trying to be ahead of time, like today I'm going to shoot something for Monday and tomorrow and shoot something for Sunday. I'm trying to stay ahead of time. So it's tough. You know what I mean? Like, if anyone's ever done film work and you're always on on deadline, it's tough. It's tough to make sure you can't be lazy, you can't sit around feel like it's doing it today not gonna work, you know. So it's tough. And podcasting suck, man. I just decided that it's just not for me anymore, you know, like it's tough to constantly come up with guests, or to always have, you know, something to talk about, you know. And I do feel like it's just it's flooded, but everything's flooded, you know, every, everybody's making something because everything's accessible and easy to make now, just quality is the heart is the hard thing.

Dave Bullis 44:30
Yeah, very true. And, you know, with the whole Facebook thing, I remember that whole, you know, Facebook, actually, I think they said something in their announcements where, you know, because they're taking on YouTube head to head now, so they don't want anybody sharing any links from YouTube anymore. They've completely blacklisted YouTube. So that's what Jack they want to do, is they want you to upload it, and with everyone making stuff, you know, it reminds me of a talk between Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino, and it was a panel interview, and somebody said, you know, how do I make something now, if the marketplace is just too crowded. And Robert Rodriguez, you know, said, just keep plugging away. And he said, You know this? And Tarantino said, Well, he goes, if you have something of quality, he goes, it doesn't matter how many people are in the pool, you will stand out. He said, trust me. He goes, I have seen it before, and it will always be that way where something of quality will end up becoming, you know, the top, you know, it will rise to the top. And I And honestly, I've seen that too in viral videos. I've seen people who've made one viral video, and they try to do it again, and they can't do it. They still have a lot of subscribers. You know, they have, like, a couple 100,000 subscribers, but their views, though, always, aren't the same as that one viral video. And, you know, even the number one youtuber in the world, you know, I've noticed a trend with his videos as well, which is Pewdiepie. I noticed a trend with his videos how, whenever he does an anthology of playing a game and commenting over it every, you know, the first episode always has the most and then the second episode. And literally, it goes in order. And you can actually look at the views as a as the as it goes down and down and down and down. So it's just, you know, it's sort of this things that I'm trying to pull out. You know what I mean, like of analytics and truisms and stuff that seem to be true across the board. And, you know, Rob, I know we're running out of time, but, you know, just in closing, I wanted to ask one final question to you, Rob, and that is, you know, if there was any advice you could give to anybody who's about to who's who wants to make films. Let's just say, you know, there's somebody out there right now who's listening, who has, who wants to make a movie. They don't have, you know, contacts, you know, and they don't have an idea yet, but they want to make a movie. They just don't know what to do. What? What advice would you give that person?

Rob Dimension 46:39
My advice would be to just do it. If, if you sit and you're always coming up with an excuse, you'll never do it. You have, there has to be a moment where you just snap out of it and you go, today's the day I'm going to do it. And you write down an idea, and you film something, and you do it. And if you're looking for connections, I tell people this all the time, because people will say, like, Oh, I really want to break in the movie. Well, you're on Facebook. Everybody's on Facebook. Facebook is people are always looking for zombie extras. As an example, looking for zombie extras this weekend. Why are you not there? So you should be there. You should be there talking to people, making contacts, starting out small, saying, don't expect to get paid. Just go because you want to go. You know, not everything has to be about money. Sure, it would be great if you could get paid, but you're not going to, because you have no experience. You just have to start doing it. I don't like procrastinators. I don't like lazy. Laziness bothers me so bad because I've worked, I've worked, you know, and collaborate with people that are just, they're just not go getters. They just have a million ideas, and all they do is sit and talk about it. And I'm not that guy. I've always been someone that I don't need anyone else. And it sucks to say that, because I've just been burnt so many times where you're just like, you know, oh, what? Well, what's going on? Oh, I can't make it today, you know, I got something else to do. And people just are committed. And then they want, then once you're doing it again, then they want back in it. And you're just, like, nobody, you had your chance, you know, like, I really, I don't need you. I'm good. So that's you have to learn to, first of all, be around positive people. That's number one, if you're around people that are always going to find an excuse for you not to make it. You're not going to make it. You have to be positive, and in turn, have to have positive people around you. And sadly, your inner circle is going to be very small, because the amount of people that are positive are very small because you live in a negative society. And that's just, that's the truth, it is. And I encourage people all the time, you everyone has a cell phone, everybody, and if you have, like, I have the iPhone six. The iPhone six camera is super, super good. You know, make a make some sort. And iMovie is this free. I think if you download on your phone, it's like five bucks. So there's no reason why you can't make an edit a movie, a short, two minute movie on your phone. No reason. The only reason that you can't is because you don't want to. That's it. You can say you want to, but if you're not doing it, you don't want to. You can have lighting, lighting. You can go get lighting. I think that those those aluminum lights that they have, like for construction sites or whatever, to like, $8 so if you can't invest, like, $20 to make a project, I don't tell you, then you really you're not cut out for it, you know. I can't tell you how much I lose on a weekly basis just trying to make little stuff. You have to invest, you know. And now for me, you know, I try to to involve other people, and it's hair, miss, you're going to get some people that are going to be like, yeah, man, I really want to help. And then you realize they really don't. You get other people that genuinely do want to help but you have to drop off the people that are that are the Yeah, the Yes, man, you know where they're the like, yeah, I really they're the Yeah. But people, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but if you're a Yeah, but person, you're never gonna make it. You have to be the Yes. I'm gonna make it kind of person. That's the kind of people that I want to hang out with, and I want to do projects with. And there's a lot of people out there you can collaborate with. Lots people are always looking for people that are genuine and that want to make movies for no other reason but to just create. For me, it took me a long time to realize that I want to create like, like I said, I'm 45 I really didn't get started, so I was, like, 37 years old. So it just hits you out of out of nowhere, you know. And I'm super, I'm super happy with, you know, I look back at my work, I'm proud. You know, like you have, there has to be a level of pride, and you can't just, like I said, Never, ever, never say it's good enough. Never say that. Just say, you know, if it's good, stick with it. If it's not good, then go back and redo it. You know, no one knows you're gonna go back and redo it, except for you. You know, when people are watching that movie, you're watching whatever. Let's say that me and you are doing this podcast right now, and you just say, You know what, I really didn't like it, and we have to redo it again. No one's gonna know it unless we say it. No one, yeah, except for us. So you have, you have to be aggressive and and, you know, upholding your standards and and pressing on and doing what you want to do. You know, like the too short man, we get one light, and it's not long, you know. And we never know when it stop. So I would like to see everybody you know be able to fulfill what they want to do. And that's it for me. But if you want to follow me, I'm at at Rob Dimension on Twitter, like I said, you can go to robdimension.com. You can go to youtube.com/robdimension and follow me on there. I am on Facebook. I'm on Snapchat at Rob Dimension. I'm on Instagram at Rob Dimension, everywhere is pretty much the same thing,

Dave Bullis 51:58
And I'll link to all that in the show notes to everybody. So you can stalk, you can stalk Rob online, and you know, it's just you, but, but, yeah, I'm gonna link to all that in the show notes. And you know, Rob, I want to say, you know, thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I've always wanted to talk to you, and I'm so glad we got we finally got to, we finally were able to connect. It's been great talking to you. And I will talk to you soon, my friend.

Rob Dimension 52:22
Yeah, I appreciate that. I really I had great time, so I appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 52:26
Oh, my pleasure Rob. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon, buddy.

Rob Dimension 52:29
Okay, thanks.

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