This is Part 2 in a 3-Part Limited Series of conversations I’ll be releasing between the legendary screenwriter James V. Hart, the writer of Hook, Contact, Bram Stroker’s Dracula, and Tomb Raider just to name a few, and some of the top screenwriters in the game.
Today on the show we have Damien Chazelle, the Oscar® Winning director and screenwriter of La La Land. He bursted on the scene with his debut film Whiplash. The film is about a young musician (Teller) struggles to become a top jazz drummer under the tutelage of a ruthless band conductor (Simmons).
La La Land tells the story of Mia [Emma Stone], an aspiring actress, and Sebastian [Ryan Gosling], a dedicated jazz musician, who are struggling to make ends meet in a city known for crushing hopes and breaking hearts. Set in modern day Los Angeles, this original musical about everyday life explores the joy and pain of pursuing your dreams.
James and Damien discuss how he wrote and structured La La Land and much more. Enjoy this rare conversation between James V. Hart and Damien Chazelle.
Alex Ferrari 2:04 Well guys, today is part two of that limited series I am doing with James v. Hart. And today he is interviewing the Oscar winning Damien chazelle, the creative force behind lala land and whiplash. And in this conversation between James and Damien, they talk about the origins of lala land, how he came up with it, how he built the characters. It is a fascinating conversation sitting down and again being a fly on the wall of a great conversation between two master screenwriters. So without any further ado, please enjoy the conversation between James v Hart and Damien chazelle.
James V. Hart 4:47 Damien we're sitting in the this is where we're going to be showing your clips tomorrow. They're just slip right there. Wow. I never seen that before. What what model is that? And over here, the charts going to go And here's the whole gang, the tech crew setting up the ballroom. Oh, hey, guys, they had a man and a man.
Damien Chazelle 5:09 Oh, that room is cool. It's a big room and more of like a small classroom. That's awesome.
James V. Hart 5:15 No, that's why I want you to see that this is. There's a lot of excitement about this. And we really appreciate you authorizing me to take you apart. Yeah. So lala land. Yeah. Be Damien, the youngest director of ever winning Academy Award. And now he's old enough to grow a beard. Yeah, a little bit. But to today, today, tomorrow, we'll be spending an hour and a half going through the process with a chart of lala land. And you and I spoken about this, I just want all of you to know that Damien, approve the picks Eclipse. He picked the points in the film that he thought were the most important, and we built a chart around that. But you have some news that I think maybe we It has nothing to do with the movie business. Has nothing to do with working with Ryan again or walking on the moon. But you're about to take a big step in your life. Oh, yeah. I got engaged. Ah, yeah. I guess now two weeks ago. Okay. Yeah, a little longer. Weknew you weren't pregnant. But engaged is that's at least one or the other. Yeah.
No, no pregnancy. Retro. Congratulations.
Damien Chazelle 6:30 Thank you. Yeah, we actually met through Benj. passuk, Minar. Who wound up writing the lyrics on? Yes. So, you know,
James V. Hart 6:42 well, we also just saw the the Broadway musical, but they've also written the lyrics. Yeah. Which is staggering. So you, you've assembled quite a team? How many of the what what are the people that you'd had already known and worked with, that you bring into the production? Well,
Damien Chazelle 7:03 the only one who I knew from way back when was Justin Hurwitz, who wrote the music. And so that, you know, we had kind of played in this genre before together and right. I wanted to do a musical together. And so the next two people who, who I met to kind of make this with were the producers, Fred Berger and Jordan Horowitz. I know, you know, both of them, Jordi is pretty real. And so for the longest time, it was just the the three of them in May, me and Justin, Fred and Jordan, for a number of years, just kind of trying to beat this into shape, get it into script form, get the music out there, get demos written. Then we started to assemble other parts, the music team like Benj. passuk, and Justin Paul, who wrote all the lyrics, and Mandy Moore, choreographer, Marius devries, our music producer, and then it was kind of one step at a time trying to kind of get this fully fleshed out.
James V. Hart 8:06 I did, I did have the pleasure of meeting the executive at focus who put you into turn around. Oh, did you? He did, she said, I'm sorry. I'm the guy that son in law's movie in Jordan horror, which is my son in law that is and and so they did us
Damien Chazelle 8:26 a favor, to be honest, because first of all, they gave us the initial kind of, like, push to actually I mean, without focused features kind of getting this going initially. You know, I don't know that me, Fred and Jordan, that we enter each other's orbit that we and and then to their credit, once they decided that they weren't going to make the movie, they didn't kind of make us languish in development. Hell, they just let us go. Granted, it was a scary moment, you know, because we were, you know, felt that it feels like you're orphaned and and it was a number of years. Before we found another home for the movie took a while.
James V. Hart 9:05 I have two quick questions. And then we're gonna jump into the chart. You and I talked about what you think the ending of the movie is. And the ending has been a very stirred a lot of conversation, a lot of discussion, a lot of debate. Over the choice you made of the ending, you and I spoke about the financing, where media and said sort of have a they sort of settled, though they resolve their conflicts is after the audition, which is still my favorite song. That was my vote. The audition is staggering. And I'm sure in the Broadway show, it will be a showstopper. Wow, can you just talk about your process and everybody here is a writer, a producer, a director all three. A little bit about your process and what you why you chose it, the way to end the film you did and what your feelings were about the bench scene and what came after.
Damien Chazelle 9:59 The bench scene I guess probably came later. Because I think at the very, at the very start, I knew roughly where we were headed in terms of the final scene. I knew I wanted to tell a story about a romance that doesn't, you know, that doesn't last forever, something that winds up being a finite moment in these people's lives. And they're kind of like two ships passing in the night, they cross for a moment. And that moment is crucial for both of them. But they wind up going their separate directions. And I wanted, I knew I wanted the tone of the ending to be okay with that, you know, that I didn't really see it as a, as a tragic ending. I was certainly very inspired by the umbrellas of Cherbourg, French French musical from the 60s. And that similarly does not keep the romance going at the end. But where's the tone there, I think is a little more again, tragic. I think here, your I wanted to, I wanted there to be, I wanted there to be a real hope, to the ending. And also this idea that you know, some dreams come true, some don't, this wouldn't be an honest movie, if every dream and act came true. Wouldn't be an honest movie of every dream didn't. But it's a movie about dreamers. It's a movie about the dreams that kind of push us and guide us. So. So it was important to me that, you know, some things work out some don't that, you know, that Mia becomes the actress, she wanted to become that that in many ways, Sebastian becomes a version of themselves that he wanted to become. But sacrifices come with that. So I guess I saw it as still a positive ending, but just one that maybe would be a little, a little less predictable.
James V. Hart 11:47 Well, it's very grown up and very mature. And it pissed a lot of people off. But it also it also embraced a lot of a lot of people you gave that you gave the audience the Hollywood ending, you gave them that what if they live happily ever after? And then so the audience got that, that that rush got that emotional charge? And then you made it brought it back? And then we made it very responsible? very adult? Very?
Damien Chazelle 12:11 Yeah, well, I think sometimes it's also like, I mean, we talked a lot about me, friend and Jordan about, you know, the ways in which we wanted to really wholeheartedly embrace the musical genre, and then ways in which we wanted to, you know, try to tweak it a bit further. And, you know, sometimes I really feel life does feel like a musical, and sometimes it really does not. And so I think I wanted to make sure that we played with both ideas in this movie, the times in which life really feels like it's entering that magical movie movie round, like when you're falling in love, or that moment when a dream comes true. But then there's times where you really feel as far away from you as possible. The movie for me was about kind of this push and pull between life and fantasy, reality and fantasy, and that at the end, and in a way, you really want to put them side by side in the most direct way possible. That felt to me like what we were building up to the equation, building up to life and fantasy, side by side. And in a way, as a viewer, you can kind of choose which which you prefer,
James V. Hart 13:16 will you take us from the star dance, which is a total ultimate expression of falling in love. And you crash and burn us with the dinner fight. So you would go from that amazing peak, the beginning of that whole romance and I'm sure we've all felt that way. We're dancing and the kiss at the end of that sequence is dead center of the story. That you didn't you take it all away from us for dinner? Yeah, here's a question. We always ask him, and then I'll let you go. So we do the chart. whose story is it?
Damien Chazelle 13:51 Well, I mean, to me, I really think it's, it's just gonna sound like a cop out that it's both both Mia and Sebastian's stories. And I think, in a way, that was the challenge, because even a lot of the movies that we were inspired by, whether they were dramatic love stories, are romantic comedies or musicals, you know, ultimately kind of sided with one individual over the other. But I, I really felt strongly here that that, you know, both points of view had to be privileged. And it just depended on what you know which point of view we were, we were taken, at which point, but that we needed to kind of hop back and forth. It's also I guess, why I mean, I think in many ways, it's about it's about these two people as a couple in relation to the rest of the world. It's kind of why, after the opening number, there's no musical number outside of these two people, you know, so we use our opening traffic number as an entree into the world but then at that point, everything becomes more and more intimate, and more and more motivated by just those two people. So you don't have auxiliary characters have you know,
James V. Hart 15:03 I'm only charging two characters, I usually charge five or six. And it's a beautifully structured screenplay. And it's a beautiful structured film. On page 38 of your script is the dancing the stars, which is the dead center of your movie, which is 58 minutes into your movie. Okay, so I'm just doing this because the director to me decides what the time running time of the movie is not the page count. Right, right. Well, yeah, one minute page. And now you're working with Ryan again doing
Damien Chazelle 15:37 life after lala land? Yes, yes. The sequel? sad, lonely years of Tibet? No, yeah. I mean, we're, I mean, in many ways, it feels like a 180. We're doing a movie about the moon landing, and Ryan's playing Neil Armstrong. But you know, I guess you could say, one similarity is that again, it's a movie about very literally outsized dreams.
James V. Hart 16:05 I want to thank you, everybody here tomorrow will be applauding and cheering you and hopefully, I won't be able to live up to these expectations you've set for us, and I really appreciate it. It's great. And awesome. You'll love this festival. Writers Festival there. Yeah. This looks awesome. And congratulations on your engagement.
Damien Chazelle 16:26 Thank you. Say hi to Sam in a spacesuit for us. We'll do I'll tell them you say hi.
James V. Hart 16:32 Thank you, sir. Thanks, Alan. Elisha for doing all the Alicia for doing all the hard work for us.
See, it worked. out.
Damien Chazelle 16:42 There we go.
James V. Hart 16:42 Amazing walk on the moon.
Alex Ferrari 16:50 Thank you guys so much for listening. If you want to get links to anything that we talked about, in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 107. And we have one more in this limited series coming out in the next couple weeks with James v. Hart. And if you haven't checked out his new course, the hart chart screenwriting masterclass over at IFH Academy, you are missing out it is a game changing course. Head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash hartchart. Thank you so much for listening. As always. Keep on writing no matter what. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.
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Today on the show we have award-winning screenwriter, actor, director, producer, sketch comedian Rick Najera. Rick is also an author, playwright, coach and national speaker with an expansive portfolio of credits in all forms of entertainment.
From starring in films with Sidney Poitier, George Clooney and most recently Mario Lopez, to writing sketch comedy for Jim Carrey and Jamie Foxx, Najera is best known for starring on Broadway in his award-winning, self-penned stageplay, Latinologues, directed by comedy legend Cheech Marin. Najera is only one of three Latinos to ever write and star in their own play on Broadway.
As a screenwriter, Najera has written dozens of scripts for TV, film and the stage, starting out in the industry as a staff writer on the groundbreaking urban comedy series, In Living Color, for which he wrote more than 30 episodes. Najera went on to write for Townsend TV (10 episodes), MAD TV (47 episodes), East Los High – a Hulu original (21 episodes) and more.
He penned the feature film Nothing Like the Holidays starring Debra Messing, Alfred Molina, John Leguizamo and Luis Guzman, which won him an ALMA Award. Najera learned from great writers like Spike Lee, Quentin Tarantino and Scorsese to “write what you know’ and has been a pioneer in Hollywood telling his American experience, from a Latino perspective.
Rick and I discuss the raw truth about working in Hollywood, writing comedy, working with greats like Jim Carrey and Jamie Foxx and much more. This is a entertaining and informative episode. Get ready to take notes.
Alex Ferrari 0:09 I like to welcome to the show, Rick Najera, man, how are you doing, Rick?
Rick Najera 3:28 Good, Alex, how you doing?
Alex Ferrari 3:30 As good as we can be in this crazy mix up the world we live in today, sir.
Rick Najera 3:34 It is a crazy mixed up world. Yeah, it's so much going on. But you know, different stuff. I'm sure that everyone's tired of hearing about COVID interactions and things like that. Let's talk about film.
Alex Ferrari 3:44 Absolutely. Absolutely. So first and foremost, sir, how did you get into this ridiculous business?
Rick Najera 3:51 You know, it's very simple. Um, I thought of the, the one thing that would just totally destroy my life and make my life really horrible. And I went, let's go for that job. And it had to be writer, because that is the probably one of the worst jobs you can get in Hollywood. It's just, you know, really horrible.
Alex Ferrari 4:08 Now, why not? Why, sir? Why? Well, I
Rick Najera 4:11 Well, I mean, I have to tell you, first of all, it's a lonely business. So it's not like, you know, it's lonely. No one, you know how many times they go, Oh, my God, there's, that's the writer of that film. You know, it's even you could name off Star Wars. They'd go, Oh, my guts. Oh, wait a minute, is that James Earl Jones Oh, my God, not for you. Because people are are attracted to the to the man or woman in the podium. You know, and that's, that's the person I mean, we've had years of now, you know, the the cult of the director like Orson Welles and people like that, or, you know, Quentin Tarantino, but say Quentin Tarantino, Orson Welles, were also actors, they're performers. So they were hybrids. And I think that's kind of what's coming to the world now is more hybrid. I mean, yes. writer you know, I'm a proud member of the WTA I've you know written a lot of things but now I love my union are great. And my favorite things are screeners I used to get but we don't they don't really send at the screeners like they used to
Alex Ferrari 5:14 know that as much anymore now yes like you go online
Rick Najera 5:17 to see something like one thing I don't want to be online is a freakin pandemic. I don't want to be in five a screen.
Alex Ferrari 5:25 Yeah. I want to go to a theater and watch it theater. I
Rick Najera 5:27 want popcorn. I can't watch a movie without popcorn in my hand. There's so it's, it's it is the it is more of what I think I am in a lot of certain performers are and writers and people like that. We tend to be Heifetz. And the old world of Hollywood actually was the Model T Ford world. Right? Like, the the writer does eight hour, you know, he does the eight o'clock hour family sitcom, that's the guy and this person's the single camera guy. And that person's this no, this is a writer, but he's really comedy. And this is this. So they approach writers that way. It's being Latino. I had to always create my own job. You know, there wasn't, you know, we talked earlier on the show that there isn't a lot of Latino writers. And there's there's a reason for that. But they're just we're just few or a few and far between. I was on a plane I think was hosted in Lopez and one of the writers were going to some event, and there's like three Latino writers on the plane, I say, this plane goes down. We've lost half the writers in Hollywood. And at that time, it was kind of the truth. It was like it was like, we've lost half the writers the display goes down. I mean, and I hope I mentioned along with Josephina in the other writer, for sure it was it would go you know, but it was true. It was like What a tragedy is sad because, you know, no one wants to be the first in Hollywood. Or like, you know, people have called me a pioneer in some ways. You know, Pioneer I got I've never wanted to be a pioneer pioneer really is a bad job. Because pioneer gets killed by the bear gets cholera syphilis some mercury poison and a silver mine and some
Alex Ferrari 7:15 What's that? What's that? So it's like game Oregon Trail Oregon Trail trail. Yeah,
Rick Najera 7:19 just the worst things you can imagine Eagle the eagle takes your baby yeah your feet you have no fingers or hands you've got no personal hygiene fair enough fair to add and you're you're just hoping to syphilis kills you instead of a Native American and well that's it's just bad it's so I want to be the guy that shows up in the train you know what the you know the nice mustache and Joe show up with a train and and all that kind of world that's the kind of guy I want to be I don't want to be a better yet. The guy shows in a jet just right to New York even better. You know, it's great. But pioneers a bad thing to be you don't want to be a pioneer. It's just the danger level of Pioneer is really up there. I went to Australia to film something. And that place was dangerous already. I could imagine someone going that place and being a pioneer. They have everything there will kill you. spiders, snakes, every the people I mean, kangaroos box. I mean, it's crazy. Oh, kangaroos aren't even cute animals, like I saw King like seven foot high. And they will gut you with their feet. You know, so you go walk up with a carrot your mouth and what to feed it gently, you know, with a gill kill you. And so it's that's to me, Pioneer. So I do not want to be a Latino pioneer. Because first of all, they don't no one cares. And
Alex Ferrari 8:37 no one do. So by me. So when you when you started out? I mean, you started out? How did you like start getting work because I look, I'll tell you what, you know, I came up as a commercial director and in post production as a Latino in Miami. And, you know, I started off in editing Latino, you know, commercials and doing other stuff or South America and things like that. But it was a little it was hard to break through to the American market for and that was This is the mid 90s where things are a bit different now in regards to accessibility, like I mean before, get more and and then that whole crew
Rick Najera 9:14 and those guys aren't even doing what you say particularly Latino stories.
Alex Ferrari 9:18 No, they're no they're they're not there but they're still but they're still you know, Latino, you know, let's call it Latino directors and and Robert Rodriguez and and you know, and all that kind of stuff. It was it was a different world so I could only imagine what it was like for you as a writer coming up in the 90s
Rick Najera 9:36 Well first of all, they were surprised I could write in English what's the bigger surprise what could I do you understand the words it was very hard you know it's it's I got in this business because I believe you can be anything you want to be you know that was drilled in my head you can be able to ever you want to be and and I believed it So I said I'll be an actor because being an actor you can be any character want to be and then this business spends their entire energy telling you can't do that. And now those exceptions are starting to happen. I'm watching with Shonda Rhimes. I'm a big fan of, you know, people like that. But on the whole, for the 90s, just the 92, like when I first started out was, it was a 92 it was I got an in living color. And I got that after being an actor. I was, I was working a lot, you know, as I got into acting, I did you know, I mean that did shows every show from Colombo to whatever to you know, China beach and all these pilots and you know, West Wing, and I just didn't like the roles. I finally it was one day I was doing a film called Read surf with George Clooney. And we both were leads. And he had 1020 Auditions afterwards, I had zero. And we both release. And I said, Well, why what he's going on 20 shows why, why can I? They said, Well, he's going out for white roles. You only play Latinos. So it was ingrained. It agents, managers, everyone, you play Latinos now which led to can you play? At that time, it was like you're either gonna be drug lords, which hasn't changed terribly much because look at Narcos and shows like that, or you're the gardener or your you know, whatever it is, it wasn't like, you know, Dr. Sanchez, we need to We're losing him. Dr. Sanchez. We're losing. You know, it was always you know, you know, quick cut, you know, Pan left. And Dr. Sanchez is I'm just working here as a gardener, but part time I am also a doctor to help with this situation. So that
Alex Ferrari 11:46 I want to watch that I want to watch that medical drama. That's Dr.
Rick Najera 11:48 Sanchez. He's a gardener by day. But ER doctor at night. I learned this during the war, you know, salads. Teach people back up. And also
Alex Ferrari 12:02 gardening. Because I do like the gardening. It's steady when
Rick Najera 12:07 it calms me down. One night, er, gametime gardening. And I also have him. I bring the truck around. And I also make lunch for the people.
Alex Ferrari 12:19 Oh, of course, of course. Great. That's a funny
Rick Najera 12:23 dimensional character. I didn't know that. You know, so I just I just said, listen, these roles aren't, you know, they're dumb. I was very insulted by them. And I was I started off as a classical actor as an actual actor at the Globe Theatre in San Diego was as it lawyer playoffs, I did Time magazine 10 Best Production years American Conservatory Theater, all the best theaters in the nation. And the minute they found out I was Latino, there's like this. And it wasn't a secret was it wasn't walking around going. My name is Rick Nash. It sounds like an Arabic word cried. You know, nothing is exotic. And obviously not Anglo American is when I got very, you know, stuck in playing the Latino. So I said, um, if I'm gonna play a stereotype, I better written it. So I just started writing the roles. And I've turned the stereotypes upside down. I would I play a drug lord, but he was a news fanatic. You know, I talked about the news. I was I was watching the news last night, you know, talking about
Alex Ferrari 13:25 these Scarface who watches CNN?
Rick Najera 13:28 Yeah, I heard about a man. His name. He he was executed in Texas by lethal injection is ironic, no. Lethal objection. He was a drug lord. So I'm thinking to myself, for his last meal. He asked for steak, french fries and a Diet Coke. Why would you order a diet? Are you worried about the calories we're talking about? I would do that I would take care of and really create, you know, flip and flip them out and change them around. And it was it was a tough fight because you're you're in a battle with Latinos themselves. And that you you know, because it's because you're going to you every every time you're performing Latinos looking at you going, No, he's not that good. Or I don't like him or for 1000 reasons. Mostly. We're Vidya you know, Andy, of looking at someone. And so, you either people assume you're full of yourself, I gotta get that people assume I'm full of myself. You've done all these shows. You must think you're the most incredible person in the world. And I go, No, not at all. And I'm the most insecure person in the world. Those shows make you insecure. Okay, Hollywood is geared to make you insecure. It's actually geared when you walk in the door and they look at you and they said they're just not good looking. Or walk in the door. You're not sexy. Hey, you know, old, but it's like the words they used. I was like, vibrant, wonderful.
Alex Ferrari 14:55 No, it's not. It's not it's not a ton that builds you up. It's not it's not look like Brad Pitt and George Clooney were having problems getting roles when they were young. I mean, I mean, yeah, it took it took a minute. It's a George Clooney took a while before he actually hit.
Rick Najera 15:11 George Clooney. I'll tell you a story. I worked with George years ago, and we did that read serve together. And he invited me to his house to have two
Alex Ferrari 15:20 is this free? Is this pre or post? Er?
Rick Najera 15:23 Oh, this is this is I believe, pre er, like, like, so he's, he's still hustling at this point. Still hustling, still hustling? And he's hustling and I go to his house. And he has a pet pig. Pig? Like, yeah, so we're in his house, you know, doing tequila shots, and we're talking is a few of his friends over. And he says, you know, we do the movie, we'll get a bad guy, and I'm the good guy. And so we're gonna cut or not hang out together to keep that kind of denture. I said, understandable. No problem at all. And I look at his house with George. It's a great house goes out. Thank you. I go. So what do your parents do? What are your parents? So did
Alex Ferrari 16:08 he test himself?
Rick Najera 16:09 He looks at me and he just goes, it's my house. I go, I go, Well, what do you do? I'm an actor. I go. I'm an actor, but don't have a house like this. Because he really what he done pilots and stuff like that, but so he's making money, but he wasn't, you know, so I didn't know. And I said, Well, I'm an actor. How come I don't have a house? Like the house? Like there's so many because you just have to ask for more money. It's nice that Okay, last remember money? The truth is, it was just math. If you audition for 20 different roles, you're going to get one. And when you came to the Latino actors, there wasn't many roles. We didn't have many Latinos writing those roles. And even now, half the time when there is a Latino show, I almost assume I'll never get on there. Because Latinos, a lot of times they don't want to hire you themselves. Because they're looking at going no, I want to have this cast filled with all these white writers behind the screens and stains. And I am talking major Latinos who have told me no, I want to have some, you know, white writers around me. Because to them, that's success. So that's changing but but it's it is a very tough business. And it's sad because the least thing, the reason all of us go into art, and you know, I'm sure it's the same with you too, is it? You want to comment and explore the world you're living in and talk about it and show people look at this. This is such a unique way to see those I was just watching you know, Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad and I love that writer. And I was looking at I what I love about his writing is and in Shonda Rhimes to what I love about the writing is they'll take it anywhere. And a lot of times when you're dealing with Latino stories, particularly you have Anglos, you know, white Hollywood telling you what a Latino story is. There's the difference was
Alex Ferrari 18:09 like they did it with black, what's a blood? What's a black story? What's a gay story? What's with any whatever, whatever minority it is, I'll tell you what kind of story it is.
Rick Najera 18:17 Exactly. And that that is the problem. And so that's been the issue. And a lot. That's why I became so independent is why I produced my own shows and stuff like that, because I had to.
Alex Ferrari 18:29 So there's a you, you got started with a living color, because for people not for people who aren't aware and living color when it came out. I mean, Kenan was kind of like an 800 pound gorilla that could really do whatever he wanted, especially after the first season because it was such a runaway hit. And if you haven't if you don't know what a living colorize it was basically just you know, a Saturday Night Live sketch comedy,
Rick Najera 18:51 which is Chappelle Show. Yes, Chappelle Show before the Chappelle Show,
Alex Ferrari 18:55 right. And it was Yeah, and before that, it was like really, Saturday Night Live was the only thing on Yeah, honestly. But in living color just hit the mainstream in a way that I mean, it really hit the zeitgeist. So I could only imagine what was it like working with you know, was Were you there when Jim was there? Jim Carrey worked
Rick Najera 19:13 with Jim till four in the morning. I mean, this is this is my day. Okay. I'm working with Jim to like four to write a sketch called you know, the juice man. She's a fan sketches like juice, juice juice, his character Gray, and about 10 o'clock I go, Hey, what if he so crazy with his juice that he thinks he can fly or something and jumps out the window? That's a horrible idea. For the morning, Jim. Hey, what are you with the juice guy so hyped up the juicy things you can find jumps out the window and dies? Gets a great idea. Oh my god. Brilliant.
Alex Ferrari 19:51 You're gonna go far. Jim. I borrowed my words.
Rick Najera 19:55 And I say Jim's a very you know, and it's like Jamie Foxx was hiding in my office because He was in some fight with so and so. And you know Katie was upset about something and and Jennifer Lopez and walking and going Rick and I be an actress. Do you think it could be an actress? Right? I told her yes, you can. So it's like Rosie. Oh, you know, Rosie Perez, Perez and and, you know, Rosie, and I would and Jennifer would have lunches together because we'd be only Latinos there. Right? You know, the one of my favorite times in living color. I wrote a sketch because they wouldn't let me act. They're like, Dude, you really can't act you gotta write. No, no, just do it. Because most of the acting staff are the writers were actors and performers, some of the great performers. Some of the best performers were not on stage. They were actually you know, guys like Robert Schimmel are great stand up comedians, you're like, these were the staff. I mean, you know, the people you just it just goes on who's who's in fact, I'm the bliss famous person in that room. Like, one time has an event and Jennifer Lopez there and say, Hello, Jennifer, say hello to Jennifer my ad, spend some years you probably will remember me. I don't want to go up there and get amazed by her security detail. And I just would like to avoid that for my ego. She's gonna say something, and I'm not gonna say anything. So she's walking up was Marc Anthony, and I get to meet Mark entity years later. But she walks up, he recognizes. And she runs up and gives me a hug. That was such a beautiful moment. And she goes, Rick, we've done so well, haven't we? And I just looked at I was like, Well, I'm at the party, too. But I
Alex Ferrari 21:34 really well. But my security detail hasn't gotten here yet know,
Rick Najera 21:38 my security detail. Still getting the press pass and trying to get past there. My main security guys on the floor being arrested right now. priors. Yes.
Alex Ferrari 21:49 And this is a rented suit. This is a red.
Rick Najera 21:53 So a lot of times, you know, that was, you know, that's really what the day was like, you just had tons of people around. It was a very exciting time, especially for people of color. To me. Just amazing. And it was Fox and Fox would let you get away with stuff even though Fox now seems to be against people of color. Good. All right. There's a time,
Alex Ferrari 22:14 though not the time, but they let that when Fox first showed up, as far as the network was concerned, they had nothing to lose. So they just they just like we got married with children. Sure. The anti Cosby Show. Great. So why not? It was
Rick Najera 22:29 basically this kind of you had to be, it was the bad boys. Yeah, we were the true not ready for primetime players. And it was it was such a unique time in Hollywood, and it I'd still have my Living Colour jacket that they gave me. So give me a jacket. And I didn't know as a hit show until I work one day at an airport. Because remember, we're there all day long and a night to four in the morning or some amazing, you know, ridiculous amount, the price so many sketches do so much work. That meant none of us had a personal life. Right? You know, no one had a personal life. So I didn't, you know, you'd work till Friday, but you'd be done about four, whatever it was, you go to sleep the next day takes you one day to get yourself together, you feel like you just beat like a pinata. And then Sunday, you're like, oh, I should get my laundry done. Or I should get to pay some bills or do whatever. And then oh my god, what happened this time? I gotta be there. 10 in the morning to pitch. And one time the pressure pitching was so hard because you're in a room with Robert Schimmel. The greatest writers ears, you know, Larry Wilmore, all these people that are, you know, are in the room with you. And everyone's got to get something on the air. Everything's got a because if you don't you pitch and they say, Oh, I love that idea. It's great. Okay, well go with that idea. That idea that you're had to work. And this wasn't nice. This wasn't Oh, we're so wonderful idea. This is great. Let's go for with this. It was like, Alright, you got to 12 gets done. It's pretty
Alex Ferrari 23:59 brutal. Those rooms for my worst part,
Rick Najera 24:02 they'd walk in and say you got nothing. They don't want any of your pitches, you bet. You're going to pitch again in a few hours, some ideas. So you'd have to come back when you've worked all amount of time on this, to come back with a story. And if they didn't like it, for whatever reason, it just, you know, science was not gonna play that. Well. That's like work Nana, you had to come up with new ideas. So you're constantly coming up with I had one writer as you know, well known writer worked on tons of shows. He gets in there. And it was intimidating me because he walks up. So yeah, I've got 108 I kept a list sketches. These are 180 sketches that will just you know, no one will stop these ideas. This is the best pitch. I've worked for a year coming up with ideas for this show. He's telling me and stuff. I'm like, Wow, I'm intimidated. And I got my big list of sketches. I got about 200 of those. That means you know, not for you know, not guaranteed kill it's still good. Could you to my car at 300 those, you know, they're good premises, maybe Need some work? Maybe they do it to be, you know, BS or and maybe five days. And he's like this whole math Wow in a humble within a week, he comes to the office and goes, I got nothing man.
Alex Ferrari 25:12 They destroyed me mad they destroyed
Rick Najera 25:15 nothing. And he's like thinking ideas. So So I would see grown men cry. Wow. And I was people needed ideas bears like crack because like cracked in the 90s or 80s It's like, you know, it was it was sad so they would go through so much material and you would have to come up with ideas and you know like to work on other shows later years later, like mad tv. Or
Alex Ferrari 25:41 how has it worked because matte TV was like the kind of almost the, the sequel to live in color in some ways. In
Rick Najera 25:47 some ways. It was a sequel, but living color had more of the stand up comic sensibility. Jamie Foxx, that's the Mad TV had the Groundlings sensibility, yeah, more like sketch comedy from the Groundlings. There's a very particular Groundlings is a very particular style, they use a lot of wigs, they use a lot of different stuff. They're you know, they look at Pee Wee Herman and will Pharaoh as they're saints, you know, they pray to them. And so there you have a different style. But to me, it was kind of cultish in some ways, because you had to have that school. I like the stand up comedy schools, the chapels those guys like that, because they in stand up comedy of the Comedy Store. But then you've got the improv, then you've got the Laugh Factory, but each one has their own style and schools. So as much more varied. Groundlings was a very definite style. Then came UCB and all these other others.
Alex Ferrari 26:41 And What years were you at Mad TV?
Rick Najera 26:44 Gosh, I gotta think maybe like around 2005 or something like that.
Alex Ferrari 26:53 Starting starting around? 2005
Rick Najera 26:54 I think I think I remember. I mean, I wrote a lot of those things. And it's in my IMDb and i i read this stuff. And I'm like, What I didn't remember so
Alex Ferrari 27:02 you miss you miss the time that Julie was there. Julie Michelle Jones. Oh, yeah.
Rick Najera 27:07 What is a Julie Julie I worked with later on Julia and I work together and Latino locks either showed up on Broadway. Well,
Alex Ferrari 27:14 she's wonderful. She was my she was the star of my first feature. Wow. Which one was that? This is Meg. She and I directed her comedy special. And I've been friends with Jill for about a decade. Jeff. Tonto stages. Wait,
Rick Najera 27:30 this is a very close friend. I really like her like because because I interviewed her for my, my podcast now in America, you know? Sure. I don't want to siphon your million man. Audience.
Alex Ferrari 27:44 I'll put a link i'll put a link in the show notes. So
Rick Najera 27:46 yeah, put a link to the show. Because you know, Listen, guys like me don't have the audience to you do. So, but I'm here in America to hedge Julia and she's just a great person. You know? She did. She didn't, you know, I think it was Reno 9110. Yeah, she's like that. So it's it. The comedy school in Hollywood is very small.
Alex Ferrari 28:08 Yeah, that's one thing I've made since I got here. almost a dozen years ago, I met Julie three months in, by the way. Three months after I got here. I met Julian she started in a short film that I shot like, I was hired to do within within three months of getting here. It was like, and I when I got here, like this is Hollywood. Great. This is the way it's always gonna be. I'm just gonna like in that whole project turned into a shit show. And you know, but she was wonderful. We always stayed in touch.
Rick Najera 28:33 We say this is Hollywood. This is Holly. Now this is all I know.
Alex Ferrari 28:37 This is Hollywood. Yeah. But it's very small town. And everybody knows everybody. It's so weird. Because and the more I do these show, like when I do this show in my, my other podcasts. I'll talk to a guest and I'm like, Oh, I know. Do you know this person? Yeah, I know that person. Like, and it's just like, everyone knows everybody. So if you and this is something for the audience listening. Don't Don't be an ass. Because you will get back to you people will talk.
Rick Najera 29:06 I know, it's with me. It's like, you know, I go through through Mum, you know, normally for me, it's it's I've run into more just I don't think people understand. I don't think they've ever stood because I don't fit anything. You know, it's not like you go you're not in a box. I'm not a box. I write a director, actor, you know, I've done everything, you know, VP and network and, you know, do all this stuff. Not a big network, but it's still a network. And so I've seen the world very differently. And, and I come up like, I'm gonna do a T, a web show in February on a web show. A masterclass right, in February. So, so people go like, Hey, he's actually teaching are doing some like that. Because I came from school, you had to do everything. And that's very Latino. Like, oh, I know. I've never met a Latino that you You go to front of Home Depot. Can you do tile? Oh yeah, I can do can you do plumbing? For sure I got my tools. Can you do surgery surgery? Can you? Oh yeah, I can do quite crack open the heart. I need a donor. But then I got my tools. I guess you got a donor I got my tools. So it just, that's where people have been.
Alex Ferrari 30:24 I mean, look, I have a hat on this says hustle. I mean there's there's there's I mean, it's it's it's on brand for me, sir. I
Rick Najera 30:29 understand woke up this morning. Every day. I'm hustling Everyday everyday I'm hustling. Because, like, even even before Yeah, every day. That's our mantra. Everyone hustle.
Alex Ferrari 30:42 It's just, it's just the way it is. It's just the way this
Rick Najera 30:45 is where it is. And I thought about my son started acting as commercials and doing quite well. And he was like, how do you want to do commercials right now I want to study school. And like, in part of me was like, if I worked, if I was in Tijuana, you would have a box at Chick place in your hand going to a chiclet you'd work that's the way our Latinos are, you know, it's like, some, you know, people go I have children, because I love them. And also it's like Latinos. Like, we need a crew, and a little bit to get there. But my family that's hilarious, even though I can't stand it.
Alex Ferrari 31:26 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You you, you were able to make a, you know, an anomaly in Hollywood, which was a movie called nothing like the holidays, which was a holiday Christmas movie, which I saw. And when I saw them, the cast is amazing. And it was a Latino basically a Latino Christmas movie with a with a real representation of what it's like. And you know, it's always, you know, it's always weird with with Latinos, because we're, we're not just one block, where we're 30 or 40 Different tribes, if you will, depending, you know, I'm Cuban, Mexican, and, you know, you know, everything from everywhere, you know, from Chile every so everyone has their all different kinds of traditions. We all kind of have similar traditions. Yeah, but so you know, nothing, nothing like the holidays. I saw I saw myself in it, but it still wasn't a Cuban Christmas, you know, but it was
Rick Najera 32:32 it still there are certain things you relate to like, like, you know, do Latina logs as long as I did. And, you know, getting that show on Broadway is the first successful Latino play on Broadway. Right? They called it a play. Right, which to me, it was more of a comedy special series of monologues, but they call it a play, which put me in direct competition with all the big multi-millions. I'm like, No, don't call me a play called theatrical event or something like that. I brought Latino logs back, I could actually get Tony for revival. But, you know, a lot of times when you would do work like, you know, Latino logs and that kind of stuff. People didn't know what to label it. You know, we're hard to label you know, nothing like dollars we use Ah, I'll tell you where you can relate your Caribbean. Yeah. And are Ricans are still Caribbean now. Sure. The joke is Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico would call Cubans to vase in two ways. And that means basically I used to have so it's like every every time you meet a Cuban in Puerto Rico, like I call where they me back, that's not an avocado back on Ah, the avocados would fall from a tree kill you. You know, it'd be like, everything was just hyper beautiful what Cuba was. And of course, that's a human aspect that we're looking back. Like, I thought my years in high school are wonderful. Now I'm like, now I luckily Don't Look Back in high school. That was the best time of my life. Because but if people do they look back and they go I was a football captain are always so
Alex Ferrari 34:07 I'll tell you I'll tell you a joke. If I may be so bold as to tell you a joke. If what's the difference between an Argentine and a Cuban like so the Argentinian thinks he knows everything but the Cuban knows. He knows everything.
Rick Najera 34:20 Yes. It was like, it was like, it was an Argentinian if they can. If they sell you what they're worth would they think they're worth paying millions.
Alex Ferrari 34:33 But that's good, but those are those kind of look subtleties. When you're writing when you're writing. You know, it's like I remember doing commercials for Latin America and I literally had to version out. Yeah, 30 different videos. Because if you if you have a Puerto Rican vo guy in Mexico, that's not gonna fly. No, you have to It's so it's you know, that was the first time I kind of really understood like, oh, okay, this is like that's everything. is a little different. So when you're writing for this kind of audience, it's not easy. You're trying to appease a bunch of different audiences.
Rick Najera 35:07 What I would write like what I would my writing I've, I've worked everywhere in the United States and outside the United States. So I've worked for Mexico with fertility sit down in Mexico. You know, I've worked a lot of like, all speaking horrible Spanish, which is, to me the most amazing thing because I grew up Chicano in California. We're, we're known for getting a C in Spanish. That's like our deal. If, if that's Chicago, you speak great Spanish, you're not a Chicano. It's like, hasn't disappeared to America. They're interviewing me in Spanish. I'm like, Ah, let's give me a headache. Oh my god, I gotta get this thing. And of course, understanding and doing this but, but a lot of words, I just don't know. You know, like this, this quick side story. I was in, in Mexico and in Chihuahua, Mexico, and I had a bodyguard and it goes, his car keeps driving by me. And he goes, we have to leave and I go why? Because to guide us and I go oh, there's a there's a mural around here. I'd love it. I love his work. So cannabis is wonderful. I thought he said see get us you know, it got it. So finally I go back to the hotel and I go where's that mural? You're gonna show me because what mural like go see cantos because Sicario sees like directly me. I go. Oh, what does that mean? He goes assassins. I go assassins like those guys driving by me were assassins. Like, how do you know? It goes because they kidnap me I call the kid have you? Because yeah, go well, what kind of bodyguard are you if you're getting kidnapped by the same people that doesn't protect me?
Alex Ferrari 36:41 I'm gonna have to let you go. I'm sorry.
Rick Najera 36:43 Because I go who normally do bodyguard this the the chief of police of Chihuahua. So bodyguard for the chief of police. This guy was a major guy. It took him 24 Narcos along with army guys to capture. And but it's you know, I didn't know. So when I started working for you know Mexico and places like that I had to have an education because it's it there's so much different flavors. So if I do if I go to Miami and perform, and I do one of my monologues then the truth is, if I do a monologue, take Cuba Libre, which is about a Cuban prostitute and Cuba, you know, very, you know, gut wrenching hard monologue to perform not by me an actor and actress in the company would do that. And I'd hear people crying in the audience, because it affected them so much. Yet, when I was doing night monologue button 11 in New York on Broadway, a whole nother cry and feel sure. So I can tell what cities are performing. And if I'm doing if I was doing, say, Miss East LA on the West Coast about a beauty pageant girl that doesn't want to give up a crown. I would take to New York I did as Miss Puerto Rican Pride Parade. You have to shift it a little bit, you shift it you adjusted and in Miami. I'm doing alien resorts and I'm saying, you know, I'm basically yelling screw Cuba. Screw Castro. Right, right. Every Cuban is applauding me and loves me forever. Sure. So you're playing to the audience? You have to you it's what committee the RT did. minidoll RT was, you know, was a form of theater throughout Italy. And around I think it was, you know, the Renaissance area around that. People go to each town and listen to the gossip, listen, and the taking. If you live a Saturday Night Live, any of these shows now in Sketch wise, that's what they are. They're comedians are listening to the gossip. They're putting it out there. You got the audience going, Oh, I can't believe they went there. And what comedy is that cathartic release of ideas and expressions that you shouldn't be able to say on stage. But since you're saying it, you'll get an applause and laughter.
Alex Ferrari 38:58 Now, you I mean, you have you're very unique in the sense that you you had a Broadway show, a hit Broadway show. Excuse me. A what? It's not a show. It's not play. It's a it's a special
Rick Najera 39:10 special. On Broadway,
Alex Ferrari 39:14 it was on Broadway, and you did. So how do you approach as a writer? How do you approach a Broadway show?
Rick Najera 39:21 You know, a, you approach the same way you do with all writing, which is basically the story. It's a big beginning, middle and end. You're on the way I learned writing with my father. We were very poor. And he would go to see a movie, and he couldn't afford to take me so he'd come back the movie. And he would explain the movie to me was such graphic detail and this and that. And then years later, I see the movie and I'd be really disappointed. I was like, oh, it's boring. My dad told me so much better, so much better until the story and the man what he felt. And I learned storytelling to him. And that's really what it is is telling a story now. You can take a story. And like say Mandela Are you? Okay? That's Yoda as a child, and ever seeing Yoda as an adult. And then when you look at a story, like Breaking Bad and you go, well, Breaking Bad, here's Saul, before Breaking Bad. You know, here's his the early part of his career, let me understand where we're coming up, coming up. So we're all going through stories that we just don't know the ending most of time. And that's also true in life. It's like, we could sit there and have this great, you know, wonderful conversation and this and then it's like, Did you hear what Oh, do you mean? The COVID? Oh, no, not Alex. So it's like, yeah, immediately afterwards, somehow, he went out, a plane up and a plane dropped from the sky, or anything. And that's the thing is we don't know the end of the story. And that that is what life is. So as storytellers we're making up how we think the story is, but there is no ending. Because the biggest lie a storyteller tells is, and this is what said, you remember, as a child, what we heard was, and they lived happily ever after. Well, that's a lie. Because I saw OJ Simpson one time as a kid. I remember seeing OJ Simpson go out. Wow, he's with this blonde woman and like, I was like, impressed. I think it was a was a I think it was a busboy or something.
Alex Ferrari 41:15 He did the Naked Gun movies. I mean, he writes to me, you're like, Oh, my
Rick Najera 41:19 God. Now cut two years later, he's in a white Bronco going down the freeway in a slow chase and then stop there. And they lived happily ever after. Yeah, is it happening? So it doesn't we don't live happily ever after. So storytelling is a continual evolution of a human life. From before and after. And so that's why you know, stories are so you can take a story like Breaking Bad and go to the prequels or go to the sequel or go this is still a story, but there are every story has a beginning, middle and end. But the end is there will be no end. It continues until somehow. I mean, you look at the greatest books are. Our stories are never ending. You know, in fact, there was a movie called The never ending story.
Alex Ferrari 42:05 There was three of them, apparently. Three of them. I only saw the first and second I didn't even know there was a third
Rick Najera 42:12 gear. Is this true Hollywood. It's a never ending story. There's always a different way to tell the story. It's like, how many it's like you started noticing your older when you go. Oh, that's the remake? What?
Alex Ferrari 42:23 Oh, tell me about it. Are you kidding me? Yeah, as you start looking at like, how many Batman like I remember when Batman 89 showed up. And it was the biggest event of the year. I mean, 89 was an amazing was an amazing year for movies. And now what is there been like? 15 Batman's?
Rick Najera 42:41 Like Batman online. It's it's there's a guy who plays Batman, which is the voice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's scares his wife.
Alex Ferrari 42:49 Oh, that meant that bad dad bad that.
Rick Najera 42:51 Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 42:52 he's so good. It's so good. So
Rick Najera 42:54 many versions of Batman and then you kind of look any go. There's only so many versions of stories, you know, me with basic structures beginning, middle and end. And then you go, whose eyes are we swatching the story through? Are we watching it from the Father, the Son, the daughter, who's who have worked my entrance in the story. So stories as complex as they are really are, are very simple. You know, we learned them as kids and we need that completion. We need to feel that completion, like yeah, you fought, you know, like Alfred Hitchcock, when he's doing vertigo, and the man is standing there, he's conquered. You know. Jimmy Stewart has conquered his fear to be on top of that ledge. And you go, wow, that moment, but you know, there's a story after that he has to go down the down, walk down the stairs, call his office tells us you know, this is what happened, explain it fill out paperwork, then he has to go home, got to serve himself a drink. And later on he dies but his son takes up the mantle v you know, so it is This is what life is we're a neverending story and as as writers and people are telling people's story that we recognize and we hope they recognize it too. And nothing like the holidays is a family story that just happens to be Latino.
Alex Ferrari 44:15 Right, exactly. Now, you've done a lot of acting and writing in your life. What do you enjoy doing more?
Rick Najera 44:23 I like acting more for one reason this difference here's here's a difference acting omission hair ready for you on the set. Now, here's writing. This is a piece of crap. What are you talking about? We made it das Dogen is dead. He's not available. Guys in rehab. You got to write it for this person. What is going on with you? I said you're talented.
Alex Ferrari 44:47 I mean, this is supposed to be a positive show about writing. So I'm not sure No, no, it's
Rick Najera 44:53 positively miserable.
Alex Ferrari 44:54 And no, no. It's it's, it is I'm actually one of the more honest shows about the film industry that there is on on in podcasting. So I'm very real and raw about it. But what you just said is not wrong.
Rick Najera 45:10 No, no, it's not wrong. Because yeah, I remember being in living color. It was a very classy example. I was wearing sweats looking like, just the worst homeless person you could imagine. been writing for days. And I remember seeing this actor hidden under five, Michelle did one line. And he was like, there's all these women around me. He's talking and everybody's yeah, I've done this. I've done this. And, and me is like, a coffee. I need coffee. It's what are you doing in line? I just need food, you know, and they were totally different being treated. And so when I would act, it's it's just how well they treat actors is such difference, you know, a writer unless you're a major showrunner. You might be treated a certain way. But on the whole, they just, you know, the, the writers are the guys that were getting beat up in high school. You know, they were the ones who went to Comic Con and came back and told all their friends and things like that. I didn't sit that form of writer I tended to be much more street. I grew up with tough people and situations where and that's one thing about being a Latino is literally like, just in living color. Remember, Salma Hayek came to visit me one day and all the all the male writers who, you know, totally lost lost their mouth. Oh my God, look who's visiting you. You know, and she wasn't even famous this point. I took her Danny's actually. And we had lunch at Denny's and
Alex Ferrari 46:39 I came this is pretty this is pretty Desperado. Well,
Rick Najera 46:43 big time pre Desperado. She just flown into LA. She'd been maybe three months in LA.
Alex Ferrari 46:48 So the year a year a year away. Like that's probably like, she was like 9495 When she did that was like yeah, it was like 9392 I think it was sure she was Fresh Off the Boat Fresh Off the
Rick Najera 47:00 Boat. And here's an ironically, I'm talking to you know, Jennifer Lopez monitor lunch knob cool. Okay, I'm going to lunch. What are you gonna do? I'm gonna meet the guy. I just Latino called me up and she wants to meet me. Because some of Latino writers how rare we were. And she, I took her to Denny's gutter. You know, I got the Grand Slam, obviously.
Alex Ferrari 47:23 I mean, you want to treat them all right. So
Rick Najera 47:25 you're right. No, I just told her. I said, Look, I have one hour and Denny's is right next door to Denny's. Get guests on Denny's. Denny's. You know, a $2 biscuit too. And so I took her there. And we were talking she said, you know, you confuse me, you're a writer, you're an actor, you do everything. And I try to explain to her that she came from the world of Televisa, right? Where you were an actor, and you're a writer, and you're a director and all these different things. And I'm like, as a Latina, as a Latino in Hollywood, you have to do everything you just need to do because you, you always have to remain relevant. You always have to be doing something. And you always have to have something to say. And to do that to be fresh and be relevant. To talk you. You've got to be out. You got to be out and about. And I would luckily as a stand up or as a comic, when I'd go out and do stand up comedy. You're out normally. But once I got married, it was difficult to do that. I became a dad, I did a Showtime special called diary of the dad man, which was about becoming a dad. You know, it was a unique thing because I did not want to be a dad. You know, I've told my kids that many times. bargain with them. I did not want you I didn't even want you here didn't even want you. You are a mistake.
Alex Ferrari 48:46 On fact that one night of the kealan leuco came out you were
Rick Najera 48:51 right on your mother. No, it was you know, I I tell him joking. Of course the church did. I did not you know it, but men, you know, especially Latino men, we weren't necessarily taught, we were taught to work, you know, you're gonna work and you brought and never see your kids. But you better bring home money and you better do all these different things. That was your idea. You know, you don't see little boys playing with dolls going someday I'm gonna hold the doll like this in my hands and rockets asleep. And no, we're not. We're not trained that way. So, for me having spent so many years in the business and and it was it was um, you know, it's like, I can't believe I just got married, you know, and I am and she got pregnant right away. And literally right away. I mean, she told me she's like, it'll take me years to get pregnant. Of course, in vitro, most of my friends are doing in vitro. And I'm like, now here, I'm Mexican. There's one thing our people do extremely well. Pregnancy naturally,
Alex Ferrari 49:55 so you brush you brushed your shoulder against terrorism. That was I looked
Rick Najera 49:58 at her you know? look better and it was done. It was it was like, you know, I was ugly
Alex Ferrari 50:04 using the force and using the Force use the force. There you go. You're pregnant. You're pregnant at this point.
Rick Najera 50:11 So she got pregnant. And the kids right away. We have three. So you're still married? So, you know that's in Hollywood.
Alex Ferrari 50:21 That's a that's a that's a success in Hollywood.
Rick Najera 50:23 Well, I it was our 18th year anniversary. But I
Alex Ferrari 50:27 mean, you're so let's, let's put, let's just clarify for everybody listening. What a miracle it is that you're still married. You're in Hollywood, and you're a stand up. Yeah. And, and a stand up and a performer and a writer. So I mean, you really are you are an anomaly, sir. Because I know I've known many a stand up in my life, and worked with many and it's, they are very interesting souls.
Rick Najera 50:51 Well, the thing was stand ups. You know, it is it's a rowdy world. There's there's not no two ways about it. It's just a very rowdy drink, talk hang out, world, you know, it's like and that's, that's a unique thing. You know, that was really kind of kind of straight, I think. But you know, women don't ever give you extra points for that. They don't go so amazing. You know, it's like he expected and that's, and I think it is so yeah, we've been married 18 years and being married in Hollywood is probably the real toughest job. Not only but you
Alex Ferrari 51:25 So you started off as you started off as a stand up. First.
Rick Najera 51:29 I did. Well, I started off as an actor. I was an actor. I did. You know, I mean, every cop drama, Hill Street Blues, I'm at my age myself. But I was like the last year of Hill Street Blues that
Alex Ferrari 51:41 wasn't that shot in black and white. And it was like that invite by Gunsmoke.
Rick Najera 51:44 He was next to Gunsmoke set. I remember that. And and they were talking about a show called Gilligan's Island. They didn't do it years later. And I it was I did the Spanish version, Gilberto silent where we would go back to you'll hear something that sounds funny shirts getting cross what's going on?
Alex Ferrari 52:08 You're just too soon. Too soon. Too soon. Too soon, too soon.
Rick Najera 52:12 Yeah, it was. You know, I mean, you it was a it was unique in Hollywood, that, you know, it's actually I mean, in a weird way. It's tragic. Yeah. All it is, you know, you go and you say, my father was in Vietnam, and World War Two. And how many world war two movies ever seen a Latino? And then you go and how many do you see in Vietnam? Vietnam. I think the platoon has, has a camera pan and have a guy with a Virgin of Guadalupe, you know, statue or something? I think that was it. Anyone? Oh, they represents every single Latino that that went through Vietnam and, and did that whereas my family actually did it. So I saw how Hollywood never told her stories. What Diaz became my, my passion was a teller stories.
Alex Ferrari 53:02 Did you ever see the movie Hollywood shuffle? Yeah, no, I
Rick Najera 53:06 worked with Robert Townsend. I looked at his TV show.
Alex Ferrari 53:09 Right. So Robert, I mean, I and I, and I've said this on the show multiple times. I think he's, he doesn't get the credit he deserves because he before he was like, before that whole I'm gonna go do my movie on a credit card thing of the 90s and clerks and, and then by the Archie and that whole thing. He did it first. He and he did it in 87. I remember because I was working at a video store at the time. So I remember it,
Rick Najera 53:34 where it was rare things you hear? Yes, I
Alex Ferrari 53:37 was. I was working on a video so that time,
Rick Najera 53:39 and I remember, he's gonna bring back video. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 53:43 And he made that movie specifically because he was exactly what you're talking about in the Latino experience he was talking about in the black experience, which was Hollywood wasn't telling him a story. They're gonna tell you you're gonna be the slave or you're going to be the gangster or are you going to be this? And he there's this great skit in Hollywood shuffle where he's, he's like a duly like a Juilliard trained actor. And he's talking with a British accent. And he has a whole bunch of African Americans who are speaking British. And then all of a sudden, you have, like, the whitest guy in the world going Nah, man. When you talk jive, you got to talk like this. And you see them trying to train the African Americans how to talk gangster and so it's just so it was such a spear into Hollywood. It's so wonderful. It was
Rick Najera 54:26 so true. I remember that. Yeah, I was in. I was doing general hospital as an actor on General Hospital. And I played one from the Biscayne islands. And this has been me years ago. I'll tell you how long ago was I was I was at you know, Latino Golan kind of character. Okay. Oh, Monica. Poor traveler helped me Monique. So I thought
Alex Ferrari 54:47 this is this Armando Bondi. So Ricardo Montalban stop.
Rick Najera 54:50 I wrote for the guy new Ricardo my
Alex Ferrari 54:51 work with all these beautiful you know, everybody, you know, do you know?
Rick Najera 54:55 I do and I don't want to.
Alex Ferrari 54:58 Have you worked with Robert did you ever work with Robert,
Rick Najera 55:00 I met Robert Robert came to live in color and I brought him to I toured around and live in color. And he invited me to his his movie. And I saw as I went to the screening of it it or yeah, oh, yeah, he didn't know anyone in Hollywood. And I was like, Hey, you're Mexican, Latino, I am doing live in color. Please come by, I'd love to show you around. And that's how you do it. You'd actually call people up and say, Hey, man, I hear you're Latino. I'm letting them do alright, cool man. Want to come by are? It was it was a very much a feeling of helping one another. I don't think that is just now. But the time it was, there was Paul Rodriguez. And
Alex Ferrari 55:41 there was there was not many men. I know George
Rick Najera 55:43 Lopez. I knew George you know, we all knew each other coming up. So, you know, it's very much a small world where you said, you know, every buddy, you just call people up. I mean, you just you just did. So Robert, and guys like that. And George and so we were very rare. But before us came, you know, Ricardo Montalban. I remember working for him and writing him a speech for some, you know, theatrical event, and, and I was like, I felt like a kid. I was at his house. Beautiful house. And he was like, Ricky, Ricky, no, no, no. Ricky. What about he called me Ricky. I mean, that's how that's but as a Latino, we understood he was the adult he was the the man. So we had a great deal of respect for him. I mean, Eddie almost is my neighbor. So
Alex Ferrari 56:33 I've met Eddie's, Eddie's wonderful man. And he's wonderful
Rick Najera 56:38 guy. Yes. The guy's like, he's like family, just saying. I mean, I love the guy.
Alex Ferrari 56:43 Yeah. I said, I sat down with him talking. I had lunch with him once and I was talking to him about Miami Vice. And he was like, Oh, let me tell you about my advice. And he'll just go into this whole, like, all the backstories. Like, yeah, the other guy when I replaced them after three episodes, and then Don Johnson came in, and I set him straight, like day one. And that was the end of that. And like, he just started talking to all this stuff. And he was, he is so cool. And Blade Runner and all that. I mean, he's just, he's at
Rick Najera 57:07 all of us. He season. He's a legend. And that's, that's the thing is like, that's the part of Hollywood, like, we're people that, you know, like, got to work with Cheech Moran, he directed me on Broadway. He's amazing. And my other show Latino thought makers, right? Interview these these celebrities, star. I think, for me, it fits my purpose in life, that I feel Latinos are the solution, never the problem. And if you get to know us, you'll realize that. So what Latino thought makers does, which I do that show is introduce people to Latinos in a different way to see us as the solution, not the problem. And what comedy does comedy opens door like, I worked on culture clash, which was at Fox, I was one of the writers on that show culture clash in living color, mad TV, I could go off comedy wise, it's pretty, it's a pretty good resume, you know, in terms of who I've worked with, and all that stuff. But those aren't the moments, the moments you remember, are the silliest moments in the world, just like when, at the end of the day, when you're in a studio, and everyone's putting away all the equipment, and now it's, it's getting to be sunset, and you feel you've been part of a dream factory. You've done something. Those are the moments I remember, I just go that's such a beautiful, they taught the Martini shot. No, no, those are moments where you go, yeah, it's worth it. All the pains worth it. Yeah. And it's it. I remember that because I saw I remember, as a kid, I saw movies, black and white film, and the guys is that he's an actor, and his whole life has been every time he's about to make it. It gets he gets drafted to the Korean War. So he cut to just 50,000 Koreans coming toward my Chinese. He said, machine gun, shooting it and all these, I mean, just everything. Finally he gets the big roll of his life. And he's about to walk on stage. And someone turns them goes, is it worth it? And he looks at me goes, yeah, it's worth it. And this is after 50,000, Chinese, all these things, all the stuff he's gone through. And he goes, it's worth it. And I think that's what it is, is that when you do it, and it's we share a love for something that is hard for other people understand it's tangible. We love the business of making up stories.
Alex Ferrari 59:27 And but isn't it insane? But that's the insanity of this. This whole thing I've been saying for a long time that it's it's an illness. It's like once you get once you get bitten by this, it's in your bloodstream and it will never go away. It will flare up. It can be dormant for 20 years, but I'm talking I sometimes I talked to filmmakers who were like, Hey, I just turned 60 I'm retired. But what I really want to do is direct so what do I need to do and like and they were a doctor or something like that all their life? He's like, I really wish I would have gone down that road. But now I'm here and I want to do, it never goes away. Even I've, you know, I've been in this business 25 plus years now, and going in and out, and I've wanted to leave, because it got so difficult sometimes. And I literally just like, I can't take the pain anymore. And I would go for a minute and then I would come back, you know, and I'd always have one foot in or one foot. I never truly left it ever. You'd never
Rick Najera 1:00:29 truly retire. I always tell people because I every time I meet somebody, you know, they anyone who makes it announced that I'm retired. I'm not doing this anymore. They're always back the next year going okay, well, my God really bored. Alright. It's like just never say retired because it's not a, an occupation. It's a lifestyle. Yeah, when you sit down you say My lifestyle is being an artist, my lifestyle is creating my lifestyle is doing that. And I can do it through stage page or many different forms. And and this is just like us having this podcast and us talking. We're sharing a love for a craft or an industry. And you're not necessarily industry really for the craft for sure of it. And that's that's really what it is. We're sharing a love for something that we truly
Alex Ferrari 1:01:18 do love. Now what so what do you say to writers listening right now? And filmmakers for that matter? listening right now who are struggling to get their voice heard to get their thing out there to get their their work seen? Or? Or they're just going there? They're basically in the Korean War right now. And there's 50,000 Chinese coming at them. Or the enemy is coming at them? How, what kind of what's the words that you can say to them to keep them going? And to keep that dream going?
Rick Najera 1:01:51 Messy? It's actually it's, you know, I haven't thought about this for a while. So thank you for bringing this up. This is why I like talking about the industry with other people. You really kind of you think about Oh yeah,
Alex Ferrari 1:02:00 you work it out. You work it out. Work it out. So
Rick Najera 1:02:02 the workout is this. Um, my father was a door to door salesman, man, he would go door to door and I when I do stand up, I give him an accent. The truth is he didn't have an accent but no, but it's funnier with an accent. When you're with an accent. I hate to say it, but it really was people. Because if I did with his regular voice we would like so your you said your dad's Mexican. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:23 Oh, hold on a second one I my friend. Yeah. Okay. Okay, now, I understand.
Rick Najera 1:02:30 So, but my father, you know, would tell me this story. And he was a member of Toastmasters and all Stephanie's book beautifully. He told me it, Rick, I really want you to speak beautifully. If you spoke beautifully, be very proud of you. So that's why I became a Shakespearean actor at the globe, my 17 I wanted to speak beautiful. So I studied Shakespeare and I memorized it and all that. So one day told me, you know, I was auditioning for something, I didn't get it. And he goes home. Okay, so that ain't good debt. And normally, I was, as I lived, grew up in San Diego. So I was working all the time. I mean, I was like, an actor that could work. And because the, the talent pool was less none. I mean, there's great people, but there was just more more. I didn't have to audition to get 50 people, the National Search and 2500 It'd be 15 people, 15 people, and I knew most of them not doing so I auditioned for a second city, improv Chicago. They're doing a special in San Diego. And they hired two unknown actors. You know, for the first callback, I didn't get it. They weren't sure when the second callback finally got it. I told my dad, I'm auditioning for this thing. And I didn't get it. Because what let me tell you story goes every day I go out and I knock on the door. And I say, I try to sell my things. He pots and pans he sold. Because then I go to another door. But around the 100 door. Finally someone says yes. You have to knock on a lot of doors. You hear no. Before you finally hear the one. Yes. And that was it. Knock on doors. So I went back to the audition. I got I got the role. And the other unknown actor in San Diego was Whoopi Goldberg. So why Whoopi Goldberg and I got a second city improv special together in San Diego. So that was a
Alex Ferrari 1:04:21 true story. So that's, that's pre Color Purple. So we talked 8483
Rick Najera 1:04:26 It was it was pre her one woman show. Oh, oh, wow. So it was there. I was a kid. I was like, What 17 or something? Yes. At the Old Globe, and then I had to audition. I think I just turned 18 And I felt she was speaking in a bars. You know, she's a full 72 The bad influence but she was but she told me what she taught me that improv is saying yes. And you know what acting is and writing and all this stuff is saying yes, to a dream. But you you know if you remember the star outriders hearing that it's remember, you have to hear a lot of nose before you hear. Yes. And once you get that mantra in your head, you will you know, and here's a second one. What you think is success may not be read your idea of successes. Oh, yes, absolutely. So that's a that's a lot of times, you know, cuz I, I, I struggle with it. You know, like, sometimes I'm like, I'm the biggest loser in the world on my Lord. You know? Sure I get to play on Broadway. But Lin Manuel Miranda.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:30 Wow. Well, it's always that there's always a bigger fish. There's always a bigger fish.
Rick Najera 1:05:34 Hamilton. Oh, I did 137 performance with an extension, the first one like that, while they were off Broadway, and they said, Hey, you could be Broadway. So it got people thinking that direction. But the man just nailed it. And so. So you start to get that comparison. You know, and I think about it. It's like, well, Whoopi Goldberg wired I Whoopi Goldberg,
Alex Ferrari 1:05:55 why did I win the Oscar for gold? Yeah,
Rick Najera 1:05:57 you know what I mean, to Jennifer's just a fly girl, what happened to me, you know,
Alex Ferrari 1:06:02 but don't forget, look at what we've been where we are. Looking at some accomplished,
Rick Najera 1:06:09 you have to kind of look at it and go, you know, maybe success. To me, in the end, for my success in life has been my three children. That's it. If I looked and said, Look, if you go all your success in life that you've done, if your three children are your measure of success, then I'm a successful man. Now, if my measure of success was an Emmy, you know, I get a nomination. But if I got, once I get that me or if I got an Oscar or whatever. And you have to learn that your ideas, success is the process. It's the that's what life is life's a process, you wake up you, you try to find love, you try to keep love, once you find it, you try to you know, all these 1000 things of what our evolution isn't, you know, and I, I saw my relative Mike was much older now. And, and, you know, I gotta tell you, old age does not look pretty. It just looks like oh, man, this looks bad. But I've never heard them complain. I've heard them understand this is life, that they're happy when they wake up. And you know, and that's the word, their attitude is, you know, this is a good day. It's, it's if you stop comparing yourself to others, and compare yourself to you find and you find that happiness, then I think you're successful. Because in the end, the moments that truly make you a human being and can truly make you give back and what is our humanity is the love our kindness and how we you know, like you said earlier, don't be a jerk, because people remember, I constantly meet people every day that will walk up to me and they go, hey, you know, I work with you years ago, I always go was a jerk.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:57 That was that was a nice to you.
Rick Najera 1:07:59 And I've never heard anyone say I was bad. I've never heard that. You know, maybe because I'm asking him I look you're imposing and intimidating Batman, mask yourself. I'm simply, I add a simple rule was very much so of to judge a person by their character of how well they treat someone that can do absolutely nothing for them. Right? That's it. So if I walk on a set, or whatever it is, if I see a scar, someone else treating an intern or a PA or someone badly, that's my judgment of that person. But, but I gotta tell you, I've had so many actors and stars that I've met, that are truly nice people. Truly great people. You know, you know, I look at certain people and I go, they're a good person. And luckily, when I meet them, they tend to be I haven't been fooled that often. Where I go, Mother Teresa. Whoa, that was a surprise. She was rough man. Attitude.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:03 She still owes me 50 bucks.
Rick Najera 1:09:06 So close. I'm a miracle worker, watch this. Look, that's my leopard. Get away from the way I look at it, though.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:19 Yeah, that is wonderful. That's wonderful.
Rick Najera 1:09:23 If we fall in love with the process, and we enjoy it. That's the thing because, you know, you're constantly writing you're constantly doing stuff, you're constantly testing yourself and and it is a business that it's it's a beautiful art surrounded by a very ugly business. That's the reality. You know, that's, that's truly it. But then again, you know, some of the greatest stuff in our world can be bastardize or changed or you know, best intentions or whatever. You have to develop in yourself, your purpose. And once you find your purpose. And once you say this is my happiness is larger than you, then you giving it the best you can as long as you're grateful for little things, I mean, be grateful for you calling me up and putting me on your podcast and having a nice conversation. Being grateful for that, that's, I'm grateful for it. That's the thing to be grateful for you, you know that be grateful for the little things. And that way, when the big things come, you'll still use you haven't changed, you're still grateful.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:28 I'll tell you when I when I when I let go of that whole comparison thing. And, you know, it took me years before I got my first feature done. And I was capable of doing it 15 years ago, who could have shot I could have shot that was the dream is the dream is the feature the feature the feature. And but the thing was, I compared myself to Robert Quinton, because I came up in the 90s. So I was like, Oh, my first feature is got to be a mariachi, it's got to be reservoir die, it's got to be this big thing. And that pressure, the art can't handle that kind of pressure. Like it's not built to do that. So when I finally hit 40, and I was attached to another huge project, and that project fell through again. And I was just like, You know what, I can't do this anymore. I'm 40 I got it, I got to do it. And then within 30 days, I was shooting my feature with Julie. I called her up on my joke call your friends, we're gonna go make a movie. And we shot this kind of like improv, you know, Curb Your Enthusiasm, style, style, you know, you know, story about her loosely based on her life. Yeah. And we just did it. And but but I liked it. And I also never attached any outcome to it. And that's the other thing with art. Like, if you were like, I need to win the Oscar, you're never you're gonna you're setting yourself up to be miserable. It may
Rick Najera 1:11:37 not, you know, it may not be for you. You know, I mean, that's the thing is, is it. You know, if you if you as an artist, you believe there's a higher power because I think you have to as an artist, you have to me I know Ricky Gervais always talks about he's an atheist. But I think if you really broke it down, he would hope to believe there's a God and something great something, something, something that we all do. Because the truth is, we in the place of things in life, we need to have something we can look and go there's a reason we're here, there's some higher being that goes, there's a reason you're here. And we want to believe that because as artists, if you look at even the Bible, you know, I went to, I've read so many, you know, I went to seminary, very few people know that. So I it says, the beginning of Genesis says, Man, God created man in the image of God created, you know, basically, so you're creating the image of God, trust your creator was God. So God creates you, your wife, your children, wherever, in the image of this higher power. His act of creation, is what art is to create. And if we're in his reflection or her reflection, then we are creators itself. That is our natural thing to be as creative, be creative people. And so creation and be creativity is storytelling. And it may be done to a commercial, it may be done because I've cried over commercials when well done. Oh yeah. You know, you that to get haiku up in only 30 seconds or a minute. You're going to create this world that will will touch you, then that's beauty. I mean, think about it. So like I looked at and I remember you know I did want a character was Alejandra was a busboy that was a macho guy, all the women. He thought did a great character because I said I worked as a busboy. You know I was my only had three jobs in my lifetime there were not related to entertainment one was a busboy. It was so traumatic after three months that
Alex Ferrari 1:13:44 was a true a true artist. So
Rick Najera 1:13:48 that was my my my
Alex Ferrari 1:13:50 took dramas Iwo Jima.
Rick Najera 1:13:54 He asked me to bring water no ice out my foot. Remember that? Like it scarred me.
Alex Ferrari 1:13:59 It scarred me.
Rick Najera 1:14:02 Good. The waiters. And the busboys, were so confident. And I remember I'd see I saw a busboy in a 10 speed bike, drive up to a woman and start talking to her. And I'm thinking, you're on a 10 speed bike with no very little command to the language and you're going up to a woman go, Hey, how are you? Yeah, my name is Alejandra. You know,
Alex Ferrari 1:14:23 how would you do? How do you do?
Rick Najera 1:14:27 It kind of attitude. And here, I'm like this educated, you know, there's been actor type, working as a busboy for three months, just scandalized by this. And I'm thinking that man's a happy man. Yep. He's honestly happy. And his whole life is happy and he's loves life and all stuff. Michael asked what you want to be. You want to be the person because every day, every you know, I nearly died a few years ago and I came back from a coal mine. I bought stuff and people are like, Oh my god, I wrote a book about it almost white And it was about a Hollywood but it really was about Saxon in my head. And so I came back. And I remember being in a coma and almost sort of voice of God going, you want to go back or you want to stay like a literal voice. I can't remember exactly what the accent sounded like, so I can't go. God was Puerto Rican.
Alex Ferrari 1:15:26 He sounded like, he sounded like Tony Montana. It's like, did you wanna go back? Or did you want to stay here?
Rick Najera 1:15:35 They don't like. But I remember hearing you want to go back and stay. And I said, I will I still have some things to do. And so I came back on my body. And I, you know, once you feel the pain in your body, like, oh, no, because I changed my mind, I'm going to have it. But I worked myself through and I just said, a simple mantra. This is about six years ago, I said, I will do no harm. And I will be kind. And that'll be compassion of is not not that I was a bad guy. I will do what I just said, I'll be grateful. I'll remember being grateful. And that's the thing. That's what you do so. So if you sit there you say, you know, because a lot of times, I'm sure I think I'm reading right? And me too, is it? We're in this business? And we're constantly going we've got to do this, you know, our ambition is always the ambition of Yeah, why should I get any more and more, or I want them to recognize me as the genius that I am. Well, I
Alex Ferrari 1:16:33 let that go while ago I the time. Now I'm just now. I mean, this is what he did he just become more liberal. Like, you know, I just look, I just want to be happy. I want to enjoy the process. Yeah, that's much more important to me than Bhaskar.
Rick Najera 1:16:50 I'm Harvey Feinstein, I just want to be loved. I look at and I go, I want to make the world a better place whenever I can. If not that, then thank God for the world that I've been given. You know, thank God for every little miracle. And you know, I think wasn't me says, Louis CK actually said this. And, you know, he said, you're 40 you're in a plane, 30,000 feet or whatever. It's a miracle. And you think about that, and I go, I mean, you right now on a podcast, I'm seeing you you're seeing me. It's a miracle. It is. We you know, as a kid, I'm watching three channels, three networks, you
Alex Ferrari 1:17:36 know, and when you hear that,
Rick Najera 1:17:39 yeah, or, or better yet, when I was grew up in San Diego, we heard the Mexican national anthem, because the the disc were over on the side of Mexico. So you sit there go, that was I Love Lucy, then that the Da da da, da, da da. Standing tall singing the Mexican national anthem. But I appreciate what you got. That's what I tell anyone that's listening about this business is that you appreciate every single moment. You appreciate everything. You guys the miracles all around you. If you think that way, then it doesn't matter whether you so called made or not. Yeah, you're making it. You're making it?
Alex Ferrari 1:18:20 Yeah, absolutely. Rick, I I appreciate you coming on the show. It's been it's been an absolute joy talking to you, sir. Where can people find you?
Rick Najera 1:18:29 Well, you can always check me out on on on Aaron America. It's on revolver podcasts on Apple and other stuff. And then check out Latino thought makers. I'm doing a show with Cornel West, Dr. Cornel West from Harvard law college, and that's going to happen January 28. And then I've got a if you check out my site, you'll I will have a class on writing that I'm doing with Sanjeev Chopra, Deepak Chopra's brother, and Jackie Ruiz who just quit publisher. So I'm constantly even with this COVID You know, you got to work and keep going, keep going. You got you got to work because if anything, I just look at and I go, I go. Newton, came up with his best theories during pandemic. Shakespeare wrote Lear during a pandemic. And even though we're in this time of pandemic, and I'm, like you, you know, said you watch the news, you go, Can it get any worse? I'm expecting Godzilla walking down any avenue and anything that happened,
Alex Ferrari 1:19:30 the Mole People should be taking over any moment. Yeah,
Rick Najera 1:19:33 you know, maybe I'm even thinking maybe that lizard people idea is true. I have no idea. I don't,
Alex Ferrari 1:19:38 I don't know. Hey, whatever, you never know.
Rick Najera 1:19:42 But if I can love my life, and be grateful, and and be kind to another person every day, and I said, that's, that's what we're gonna do. And if the greatest production of my kids then I'm fine with it.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:56 Rick, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, my friend. Thank you so much for for what you're doing and continue continue making people laugh, man and making people think so I appreciate you, brother.
Rick Najera 1:20:05 Thank you. Great talking to me. Good. Consider your friend now for podcast brothers anytime.
Alex Ferrari 1:20:14 I want to thank Rick for coming on the show and dropping his hilarious knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Rick. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwritingtv/106. And if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast.com And leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
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Get ready to have your mind blown! I’ll be releasing a 3-Part Limited Series of conversations between the legendary screenwriter James V. Hart, the writer of Hook, Contact, Bram Stroker’s Dracula, and Tomb Raider just to name a few, and some of the top screenwriters in the game.
First up is the screenwriter that took the world by storm with his Oscar-WinningscreenplayGet Out, Jordan Peele. If you have been living under a rock for the past few years here is what the film is about.
In Universal Pictures’ Get Out, a speculative thriller from Blumhouse (producers of The Visit, Insidious series, and The Gift) and the mind of Jordan Peele, when a young African-American man visits his white girlfriend’s family estate, he becomes ensnared in a more sinister real reason for the invitation.
Now that Chris (Daniel Kaluuya, Sicario) and his girlfriend, Rose (Allison Williams, Girls), have reached the meet-the-parents milestone of dating, she invites him for a weekend getaway upstate with Missy (Catherine Keener, Captain Phillips) and Dean (Bradley Whitford, The Cabin in the Woods).
At first, Chris reads the family’s overly accommodating behavior as nervous attempts to deal with their daughter’s interracial relationship, but as the weekend progresses, a series of increasingly disturbing discoveries lead him to a truth that he could have never imagined.
This was recorded before Jordan’s next hit film Us was released. Listening to these two masters discuss character, plot, theme, and more is a rare treat. It’s like being a fly on the wall. When you are done listening to this conversation you can read some of Jordan’s screenplay here.
Enjoy this rare conversation between James V. Hart and Jordan Peele.
Alex Ferrari 2:08 Now guys, you are in for an amazing treat. today. I'm so excited about this. This is part one of a three part series that I am going to be releasing on the bulletproof screenwriting Podcast, where the legendary screenwriter James v. Hart, writer of Bram Stoker's Dracula, contact, August rush, and hook, just to name a few of his films, is going to be interviewing some of the top screenwriters in Hollywood. And first up is Oscar winner, Jordan Peele, the writer of get out and us in this conversation, James, and Jordan kind of break down, get out specifically, and how he came up with the story, how he worked the characters, how he developed the entire script. And James starts talking to him about charting the emotional journey of his characters using his story system, the heart chart. So without any further ado, please enjoy the conversation between James V. Hart and Jordan Peele.
James V. Hart 3:19 Thank you, Jordan for doing this. Not everybody in the audience is going to know the film, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? But Was this an urban legend? Or does this have something to do with with the, the genesis of get out, but was there were comparisons there were, it was very controversial for its time, in terms of race relations.
Jordan Peele 3:41 It did have a good deal to do with how I developed the story. I, you know, the the beginning nuggets of this screenplay, were really coming, coming from a emotional place of feeling. And the fear that I wanted to capture in this movie was this fear of being observed. And being being observed by a bunch of people who are acting like they're not observing you. And I think I quickly sort of tie that in with race and the feeling of being black in a white space. And I was writing the script, I had several, several different versions of the story going. And at some point, I realized, Oh, this is Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. So I think I was I was operating with a version of it where a girl brings her boyfriend to meet all of her high school friends and sort of inside joke and all that and at some point, I realized No, this has got to be a family thing.
James V. Hart 4:51 And it makes it more grown up and takes it out of the the kind of teen you know,
Jordan Peele 4:57 exploitation or horror film version. mood, and there's a wider, wider sort of variety of people to interact with. And there, there's also a, a certain of as you said, there's a certain adult relatability to the fear of meeting your potential in loss for the first time. And I recognize like, Look, you know, I guess I knew this was a tough one, a tough one to, to sell. Because people, I think people would assume when hearing the premise that there's no way this can be done, right. So, you know, looking back at how Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, I think one of the reasons that was able to sort of cross the the boundary of racism and become a popular movie was was that everyone knows what it feels like to meet your in laws. And that's, that's universal, even though this particular dynamic is, you know, makes it extreme.
James V. Hart 6:01 You started, I believe you started the idea. Forget it was that always the title was always the title?
Jordan Peele 6:08 No, for a while, the working title was get out of the house.
James V. Hart 6:13 Guess who's getting out of the house? Yeah, I guess there was a different president, when you I believe there was a different president, when you first started working on the script, or on the idea? Did any of the political changes and shifts from the Obama administration to the Trump administration that that had to get have any impact on the evolution of the story? Not trying to get political? I'm just wondering, how did your mood change? Did something change inside you? Or outside you?
Jordan Peele 6:41 Yes, I, you know, the Trump was was basically elected between when I shot the movie and when it came out. And so that was in the editing phase. And by the time we were in the phase of picking up some additional photography, Trump was a I don't think he had been elected yet, I'm not sure. But the climate was the surrounding race was becoming more out in the open. And there was this discussion of Black Lives Matter was happening in a way we hadn't seen. More specifically, there was attention being brought to him by people being murdered by police. And so because the Obama era was just surrounded with this post racial lie, as a, as I like to call it, all of a sudden, I was sort of showing this movie to testing it in a world that was race weary, you know, months later, but both for good and bad reasons, race weary. So but I remember specifically feeling that the the original when I showed the original ending, which was of course, as you probably know, Chris, it doesn't, it doesn't end well. Chris ends up in prison. And it's, it's meant to be a gut blow. But it's also a downer, it was an extra special downer. And because the state of the world had evolved, and that these conversations were happening. So that's when I made the decision to give us a happy ending, which I don't know if I would have in the Obama era, firmly in the Obama era where everyone was, you know, seemed to certain that race wasn't a thing.
James V. Hart 8:46 Well, it was one of the one of the struggle of the struggle that a writer, these are all writers, and they're all interested in the process. And the struggle with beginnings and endings, you know, is is what we all go, we all wake up at that nightmare, you know. So one of the principles that we'll be discussing today, instead of a happy ending, or a setting, I refer to it as a satisfying ending. Is your audience an ending that they're satisfied with? Not that they're pissed off by or feel derailed? Or cheated by? Is it satisfying? So? Did you you wrestled with this ending? Did you wrestle with it in posters? Or was it? Did you wrestle with it when you were shooting? How did you how did you find that satisfying ending?
Jordan Peele 9:26 When when I wrestled with it in the script phase, and I wrestled with it and pose. So in the script phase, as you do, I had many different ways this could go. And there were there was several different endings. Some, some nobody even knows about. But I, I in the script phase, I settled on the gut blow version, you know, hey, you know, you might only get to do this once, boom, hit them with it and rip the rip, though. Now for Monday, though, you know, you're already they've already given me their money sort of thing. Well, as we got closer, okay. Well, yeah, as we got closer to the, you know, the launch, and I really realized this is really happening, and I've done so much work to serve the audience. And I think that's just where I come from as a filmmaker. I think the other version, the badass. I don't care what you think of my film, I made my film. Thing is not really me. I come I come from comedy, you know, so I, in my soul, the one guy that's not laughing is my failure. Yeah. So I, you know, I went with the in the last hour, I felt very content with the decision that you got, we have to give him a hero. And more importantly, the moment the car comes up, the cop car come rolls up. And the audience goes, Oh, you're a guy. Yeah.
That that moment. achieves my point. Yeah, right. No matter how much farther I take it. They've done they've done the work I don't need to make I don't need to make a point. They've made the point. So it's even more subversive and more elegant to let that be and then give us our fun when as well.
James V. Hart 11:38 Well, that paranoia that paranoia is still creeps up on everybody, I don't care what your ethnic background is, when that cop car shows up. You're going fuck. No, guys, it's antler. Guys. Deer is Deer Hunter cop, you know, it's the down the road. There the So you mentioned something that I'm a big proponent of in the work that we do with structure is audience you talked about, you're an audience guy. And a lot of filmmakers, a lot of writers don't ever have the audience present in their process. And I'm kind of putting you on the spot here. But could you so they're not just hearing it from me? Could you talk about the audience a little bit in your when you're writing? And when you're thinking that you're are you? Do you bring them with you? what's what's your, what's your connection to the audience in the in this?
Jordan Peele 12:30 I mean, I you know, I've because I've been on stage a lot, and I and done a lot of comedy live live comedy, I think I do have a nice little extra voice of the audience in my head. And, you know, I'm always in with comedy, you're always thinking about the audience, because you're always trying to subvert their expectations. So that they don't get ahead of you and say, okay, you're you're dumb, or, you know, this is dumb, where this is trying to speak to somebody who's less intelligent than I am. As far as I'm concerned, the the audience that, you know, there's no movie without the audience. There's no, it doesn't exist if someone's not seeing it for the first time or whatever. So anything less than trying to get every single member of the audience is kind oflazy. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have to assume there is a way to get what you want as an artist and to give the audience what they want? I
James V. Hart 13:45 guess ultimately, they decide whether your success or not, no matter how hard you work, or don't yours, you slaved over
Jordan Peele 13:52 what the stakes are, you're going to be often your ability to do it again, do it otherwise, do. So that's pretty important.
James V. Hart 14:01 I appreciate that. two last questions real quickly. You said that this is a movie you have to see more than once. What is it that people miss? That they what what is it that we mostly missed in that first viewing that when we go back a second time we go Oh, I mean, I'm not sure it'd be interesting to hear your view on that.
Jordan Peele 14:21 Yeah, well, you know, any certainly any movie with a reveal or a twist? You can watch again and with a new perspective on the what what you saw the first time pre twist, a movie that kind of honors that second viewing. And the first really is a movie where clues were there. Yeah, if you if you know you, you you but you missed them. I think that's the most satisfying thing as an audience to feel like I wasn't treated like I'm a dum dum but because I'm not and I almost got it but I didn't and he then went and you can see the proof that he was given he was laying out the breadcrumbs for me
James V. Hart 15:22 yeah like the opening is I had to watch it twice to go Oh, that's the guy yeah, that's
Jordan Peele 15:28 that's that's a nap in the beginning that yeah, that's what i think you know there there's I put a lot of detail to make sure that second viewing it worked and there's these layers I mean, the big thread to follow Of course it is Rose. And you know now now what we know from rose you know, the first moment we see her she's you know, having a moment in a she's selecting a pastry with that weird weird little smile on her face that first time you watch it is just the sweetest ingenue you could imagine and it has a completely different sinister take the next time so there's all there's many of her actions that are mean something different going through and my favorite of course, is the is the thread with the Father, the grandfather and mother Walter and George. And this idea that grandpa had lost to Jessie Oh, and as as you know, she can run fast is always chasing that you know, he built this mythology that it was a race there was a racial reason he didn't win and that this whole thing kind of come from that. That's why of course we see Walter running
James V. Hart 16:50 well, that's what's diabolical about the ending. I mean, I specifically have not charted the ending until today when we do this live with our our group because the ending is diabolical it's I mean the roller coaster ride you take us on and the ups and downs and it's like whoa one reveal after another that all that's I mean, it's a very satisfying ending all of the conflicts all the threads you pulled together in a very satisfying ending. And she creeps me out. She creeps me out. Rose rose Really? Really? Oh, that is incredible. That yeah, I forgot her name but those Sandy rear replaced
Jordan Peele 17:27 Georgina
James V. Hart 17:28 georgene incredibly
Jordan Peele 17:32 Allison Williams is yeah the fact that she can do both sides of that performance just shows you how good a liar she is really?
James V. Hart 17:43 The same smile when I have got the keys that she is at the pastry store the same last last question. Okay, is there going to be a good outer
Jordan Peele 17:54 eye you know, as the farther I move from it I don't think so. You know, I will you know and then never say never I will I'll tell you this I would never do it as like a money grab I would only do it because I've got the story to make the whole the get out universe that much sweeter. And you know, I got some ideas but i right now I don't have it and I love making new worlds.
James V. Hart 18:30 Well, we really appreciate your taking the time to talk to us today. And I know everybody behind me and around me. I'm getting my breast Bradley Whitford in case you hadn't noticed is enjoying is about to hopefully enjoy this next hour and a half and we certainly have enjoyed your film and look forward to the next adventure that you bring us.
Jordan Peele 18:53 And thank you it's called us and it comes out March 15 19. So it's coming up I'm editing it right now.It's good
James V. Hart 19:06 are we gonna laugh more on this one?
Jordan Peele 19:09 You know what did you know it's is I'll tell you what I you will laugh You will be scared. You will like get much like get out there will be range.
Well coming from you will take it adjustable and nut and nuts to think that expect anything less.
James V. Hart 19:28 So here's your little tribute...clicking our tea cups. Actually, I'm actually in the chair. The chair right now. This is Mrs. Chair. I
Jordan Peele 19:39 love it.
James V. Hart 19:40 I love it so perfectly satisfying indeed.
Alex Ferrari 19:43 I want to thank James and Jordan for that amazing conversation. And if you want to get access to James V. Hart's masterclass, over on ifH Academy, just head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv/hartchart. Like I said before, this is a three part series. So part two, James will be talking to another Oscar winning screenwriter, which is going to blow your minds. I cannot wait to get those out for you. So keep an eye out for that. They're going to be mixed in with our regular scheduled programming, but keep an eye out for that. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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Today on the show I bring you one of the most influential and iconic writer/directors in the history of cinema, three-time Oscar® winner Oliver Stone. Throughout his legendary career, Stone has served as writer, director, and producer on a variety of films, documentaries, and television movies. His films have been nominated for forty two Oscars® and have won twelve.
Stone began his career as a screenwriter, though always had his eye on being a writer/director. He struggled years before being hired to write the true-life prison story Midnight Express, for which he won his first Oscar®. Stone further wrote Brian De Palma’sdrug lord epic Scarface, Year of the Dragon featuring Mickey Rourke, and John Milius’s Conan the Barbarian.
His first outing as a director was Seizure, an exploitation horror film he directed right out of film school, and the thriller The Hand, starring Michael Caine. Stone finally broke through as a director with his film Salvador, a violent look at the chaos of war as seen through the lens of an amoral photojournalist during the Salvadoran Civil War.
This is one of Stone’s most underrated works. It was critically acclaimed but commercially didn’t hit the mark.
After Salvador, he jumped right into directing Platton, the film that would catapult Stone into the stratosphere. Platoon would go on to be nominated for eight Academy Awards and won four including Best Picture, Best Director for Stone, Best Sound, and Best Film Editing.
Platoon was the first in a trilogy the Stone made about the Vietnam War, the other films were Born on the Fourth of July starring Tom Cruise and Heaven & Earth starring Tommy Lee Jones.
After Salvador Stone directed nine films in ten years. During that decade he created some of the most memorable films in cinematic history including the decade-defining Wall Street, JFK, The Doors, Natural Born Killers, and Nixon.
Stone says his films are
“first and foremost dramas about individuals in personal struggles,”
and considers himself a dramatist rather than a political filmmaker. Politics definitely are a subject matter he enjoys making movies about. 2008’s W., a film about American President George W. Bush, was the first film in history released about a sitting president. This film wrapped up his trilogy on the presidency which he started with JFK and Nixon.
Stone’s filmography is peppered with notable films and masterpieces including 1997 road movie/film noir, U-Turn, 1999’s Any Given Sunday, a film about power struggles within an NFL-style football team, and World Trade Center, based on the true story of survival during the September 11 attacks.
In 2004 Stone tackled another giant historical figure, Alexander the Great. His film Alexander, starring Colin Farrell, Anthony Hopkins, and Angelina Jolie, had a rough road and major studio interference.
Stone later re-edited the film into a two-part 3-hour 37-minute filmAlexander Revisited: The Final Cut, which later became a cash cow for Warner Brothersbecoming one of the highest-selling films in their back catalog.
In 2010, Stone directed his first-ever sequel, Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps. In this film, he returns to Wall Street during the 2008 financial crisis. Famous onscreen villain Gordon Gekko Michael Douglas returns. Gekko teaches co-star Shia LaBeoufthe ins and outs of criminal investments.
Frost/Nixon’s Frank Langellaco-stars along with Susan Sarandon. I personally have a deep connection with his film Wall Street as it was the subject of the first short film I ever wrote, directed, and edited in high school.
Speaking to Oliver was a dream come true. Many of his films have impacted popular culture in a way that is uniquely his. During my time working at a video store, it seemed every film he released was a cultural bomb. Natural Born Killers was the first time I saw a modern director use multiple formats in one film.
His last film Snowden tackles the most important and fascinating true story of the 21st century. Snowden, the politically-charged, pulse-pounding thriller starring Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Shailene Woodley, reveals the incredible untold personal story of Edward Snowden, the polarizing figure who exposed shocking illegal surveillance activities by the NSA and became one of the most wanted men in the world.
He is considered a hero by some, and a traitor by others. No matter which you believe, the epic story of why he did it, who he left behind, and how he pulled it off makes for one of the most compelling films of recent years.
Chasing the Light is an intimate memoir by the controversial and outspoken Oscar-winning director and screenwriter about his complicated New York childhood, volunteering for combat, and his struggles and triumphs making such films as Platoon, Midnight Express, and Scarface.
Before the international success of Platoon in 1986, Oliver Stone had been wounded as an infantryman in Vietnam and spent years writing unproduced scripts while driving taxis in New York, finally venturing westward to Los Angeles and a new life.
Stone, now 73, recounts those formative years with in-the-moment details of the high and low moments: We see meetings with Al Pacino over Stone’s scripts for Scarface, Platoon, and Born on the Fourth of July; the harrowing demon of cocaine addiction following the failure of his first feature, The Hand (starring Michael Caine); his risky on-the-ground research of Miami drug cartels for Scarface; his stormy relationship with The Deer Hunter director Michael Cimino; the breathless hustles to finance the acclaimed and divisive Salvador; and tensions behind the scenes of his first Academy Award-winning film, Midnight Express.
Chasing the Light is a true insider’s look at Hollywood’s years of upheaval in the 1970s and ’80s. I highly recommend every filmmaker and screenwriter read this gem. Click here to read the book.
The main themes I took away from speaking to Oliver was struggle and fight. No matter how successful he got, no matter what heights he reached in Hollywood Oliver Stone had to fight to get each remarkable film in his filmography on the screen.
To this day he still gets rejected all the time. Throughout his career, he would jump from Hollywood studio to independent film. He wrote both Platoon and Born on the Fourth of July over a decade before they were produced because no one in Hollywood believed in what he was trying to say with those films. Platoon, The Doors, Midnight Express, Salvador, and Talk Radio were all indie films.
I hope this conversation inspires filmmakers and screenwriters to never give up. Oliver struggled for years taking jobs as a production assistant, cab driver, office assistant, and any other gig he could find to help him survive while he was chasing his dream. He wrote and wrote, meeting his goal of one to two screenplays a year, no matter what. Never give up, never surrender. As Oliver says
Alex Ferrari 0:53 Well guys, today is the day I have been teasing this episode now for a little while now. And you guys have been clamoring to find out who the special guests I have on the show today is and a few of you guessed it, but if you don't know already, it is the legendary Oliver Stone. I cannot tell you how excited I am to bring you this interview. Talking to Oliver was like a dream come true because I'm such a big fan in his films. I've had such an impact on me, as a filmmaker as a person has made me think in different ways. He is such a unique filmmaker, an artist. His films, not only entertain, but they touch you they they make you think they quit. They make you question many things about our society about different areas of our society, from Wall Street, to war, to politics, to the presidency. I mean, he's talking about huge, huge stories, huge figures in history. In in, he's just there is really not a lot of other filmmakers who have a filmography, like Oliver Stone. The films that he has been a part of either as a screenwriter, producer, or director have been nominated for 42 Oscars, and they have won 12 he personally has won three Oscars. His first one came as a screenwriter for the film Midnight Express in 1978. And then he tells the story about how even winning an Oscar as a screenwriter didn't guarantee anything. He was hustling for the next five years trying to get his movies made. He wrote platoon and Born on the Fourth of July in the 70s. And he was using platoon as a writing sample to get him work on other little films like Conan the Barbarian, Scarface, and Year of the Dragon, which he all wrote. And they might be huge and monumental films today but when they came out, they were not well received. So he had a really tough go of it. And then he had this amazing champion called john Daly, a legendary producer, who gave him a shot to direct his script, Salvador. And then right from Salvador, he went into directing platoon as this little independent film that he was shooting in the Philippines with a cast that if you look at today, you will be amazed at who was in that movie, but they were all just young actors nobodies at the time. And his his story is just so remarkable. He's worked on films, and I'm just going to throw a few of these films out that you might recognize from him. As I've already mentioned, Conan the Barbarian Scarface, as screenwriters in Salvador Platoon, Wall Street. Born on the Fourth of July, the doors JFK, Natural Born Killers Nixon, any given Sunday, Alexander World Trade Center, W. Wall Street Money Never Sleeps, and the most recent Snowden. I mean, his his filmography is legendary. And I was truly humbled to sit and speak with an artist of his statute. for an hour, I was just so oh my god, it was just like a like I said, it was a dream come true. Now, I hope this conversation inspires filmmakers and screenwriters to never give up. Oliver struggled for years, taking jobs as a production assistant, cab driver, office assistant, and any other gig he could find to help him survive. While he was chasing his dream. He wrote and wrote, meeting his goal of one to two screenplays a year no matter what Oliver Stone is the definition of never give up and never surrender. And we also go into a deep dive of his new book, chasing the light, which is his memoir, from the beginning of his career, all the way up to the peak of Platoon, where he won four Oscars and was nominated, I think, for eight Oscars that year. And his entire career exploded after that. And I have to highly, highly recommend his book. Because I've, I've read it, and it is such an amazing, raw journey into Hollywood of that time, and then also just a peek into a career. That is just remarkable. And I will give you links on how to purchase the book in the show notes at the end of this episode. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Oliver Stone. I'd like to welcome to the show. Oliver Stone. Thank you so much for being on the show. Oliver.
Oliver Stone 8:00 Nice to meet you, Alex. Frankly, I heard about you yesterday, and Okay, here we are. Yeah, I know it's the fastest. That's how I heard about you. I put I put up Facebook and, or Twitter. And I forgot what? And you answered and you asked very nicely. First of all, that you were interested in the subject matter which was about about nuclear energy, but the fact that you contacted him and the invitation was very nice to join your show. So here I am.
Alex Ferrari 8:27 And I and I and I appreciate it very much. Like we were talking a little bit before the show started, you know I am a lot of the films in your filmography have had a major impact in my life. And because during the time when you were coming up in the late mid to late 80s and early 90s that time period was when I was working at a video store. So I was watching obscene Lee about so many movies and that period of time you were prolific. I mean, you were shooting you were making movies every movie a year almost movies in 10 years. Yeah, it was it was pretty insane. It was like every year you would get an every single movie you would do would be just like this monumental thing from Platoon, radio, talk radio, JFK Born on fourth in Wall Street and all those kinds of things. So they were really impactful into into my life. And I'm gonna tell you something when I saw Wall Street because Wall Street really just immensely hit me in 88 and 8788. I can literally recite to you the greed, the greed speech, I learned it from from that age and I've never lost that. I'm not like I've been rehearsing it. It's just always stuck in the back of my head. And that character and what you did with that, that film The the commentary that you were saying about things was remarkable
Oliver Stone 9:51 Over commentaries. Yeah, they were injured. I used to really work at the I cared about and a lot of people noticed that the commentaries are pretty pretty pretty remarkable, pretty deep. And I like that because it's the only chance we you know, after the critics finished with you, dry you out in the laundry room, it's really nice to be able to say, Hey, this is what I really intended, maybe it didn't come across, but to be honest with yourself, and also it helps you creatively because it, it gives you a feedback and says, Okay, this gives you feedback and it gives you makes you think about what you did and did not achieve. And often in the commentaries, I tried to be critical.
Alex Ferrari 10:30 Now, you have a new book called chasing the light, which I'm a little bit over halfway through and I love it so far. And I can't wait to finish the book. And I'm going to recommend it to everybody I know. That is a filmmaker to read it. So we're going to get we're going to get started with the beginnings of your career because the book takes all takes you all the way up to Platoon, if I'm not mistaken, correct that to the end of platoon. And you did a couple things after Platoon, just a few, not many, but you did a few other films after platoon. But the story of how you came up is a story that I hadn't really heard about before from I mean Salvatore's and and obviously Conan the Barbarian and, and Scarface, and in some of your older films is some of your older films as well. But the first question I have for you is, can you tell people because I really think this is important. How many screenplays had you written prior to directing your first film?
Oliver Stone 11:27 Well, no, I directed my first film out of film school, basically two years afterward, budget horror film called seizure, which I wrote. And I had come out of film school in 71. With the as a writer, director in my mind, and that's what I set out to be that was my dream. And you know, Godard and Barnwell and the European bag, you Italians, to Fellini, among them, I mean, the obvious ones, but they were all leaders in the culture. And I wanted to be one guy, they were writer directors, most of them attracted me to the concept. And I had been a writer before film school, when I was 19, I wrote a book called The child's night's dream, which was eventually published in 97. But so the writing in me was always strong. But then after my service in Vietnam, I explained this in the book, as you know, the intensity of that experience required a concentration at the highest level of your physical senses, smell, sight, sound, you walk in the jungle, and you know, you have to pay really 360 degree attach that intensity, in some way became the camera eye for me. Because I'd never concentrated on the camera as much as I did there. My camera in my head. And that's what I tried to reproduce when I went to film school on the GI Bill, which paid my tuition there, but it was, you know, going out and making a short film is is very chaotic. For most of us, it's, you have to get the cooperation of your fellow students. It's not easy. It's like a Chinese cultural critique session, you know, but it ECOWAS made films over the course of those two years. Some were successful, some were not. Short films are tricky, but you know, there are an art form in themselves and you'll learn a lot. You learn a lot physically, technically, you produce you, you edit you, you shoot, and you write. Now most of the kids were not interested in writing. That was what was amazing to me. There was no requirement at film school to go to screenwriting class. Not none at all. That always bothered me, because I went, I mean, maybe a few kids went. And I wrote screenplays during that period. And I learned from these teachers they were they were good teachers. They were NYU teachers. And I bought a lot of screenplays, and I read them because they were becoming more available in the 60s. So you could read the screenplay, not from American movies as much as from European films. It's very interesting that in a sense, that study of film starting with the Europeans and it only, you know, it was over the 70s it became more and more Americanized. And finally, they started to publish some screenplays. But some of the greatest screenplays in American film are no I have never seen any copies of them. acceptances unless you go to the studio vaults. So there's a big hole there. And screenplays, their screenplay writer was regarded as kind of a warm in the back room, and the director was a star. He was wearing the scarf, Bertolucci, and he would come out on the set. And he'd make up his ideas as he went along. And there was a kind of freeform improvisation That was fun. It was the beginning of a new thing. And yet, there was not the burden of money, the commercial feeling that you had to make your money back about that system, because these films in Europe were made for very little. So that was the environment in which I but I always was I was disciplined as a writer. So I, after I got out of film school and drove a cab and worked in various jobs, got married went through the whole hard hardship of trying to make it in the film business, which is very difficult. Even in those days, far more perhaps. And in that period, I kept writing screenplays. Every year, I set a goal for myself of at least trying to write one one and a half, maybe two screenplays and a couple of treatments to turn out stuff, sending them out to agents, no response. rejections, rejections. So you say how many I don't really remember, I would say about eight to 11, as well as long treatments. One of those treatments to cover up was my first break, it sold option option sold almost me and I got to work with Robert bolt, who was a great screenwriter of that time in Chicago and Lawrence of Arabia. Bought was a serious student, but he was overstyled screenwriter that you lay it all out on the page, your architecture is there. Every line of dialogue is there. It's a whole other way different than film school. So were you more of a treatment. So I was always between the two. I was trying to write the fallout screenplay. And at the same time I was. And when I became a director of finally in the business in 85, with Sal 86 was Salvador, and then platoon. I never have I still I stayed true to this screenwriter loyalty, which is right to script write it as much as you can get on paper before you do it. And I have that mindset. And I think a lot of people underrate that don't make money.
Alex Ferrari 16:42 Right? And then so your your second film was the hand, which was a with Michael Caine. And it was a horror film. And I always found it interesting that you started your career as a director with two horror genre films, essentially, horror movies was can you tell me how those how the hand came to came around
Oliver Stone 17:00 The hand is very similar to the hands an interesting movie, it's going to be actually released by shout factory next year on blu ray.
Alex Ferrari 17:08 Yeah,
Oliver Stone 17:09 It was buried at the time. I liked the movie. I saw it recently. And it's kind of it's very interesting psychological thriller, based on a book I bought by Mark Randell called the lizard's tail. But it was very similar to seizure, because it's about it's a similar story and that the main character, Jonathan frid, and the first one Michael Caine, and the second one, are haunted people haunted in the sense that they bring with their minds, they bring the doom onto themselves. They think they think the horror, they think the har, and in what in the case of the hand that he thinks his wife is leaving him, and he becomes insanely jealous. And he sees everything as that he loses his hand in a car accident, he sees it partly as her fault. He sees the hand, ultimately as a weapon of vengeance and a weapon of anger, to get it to get back at the people who took his hand as well as his wife. So it's pretty far out and very ambitious as a visually as a first movie. Very difficult to make a small hand work as, as a shark might. And I will put I was crazy to do it. But that was a kind of it was difficult for me. Prior to the hand, you forgot that I came through as a screenwriter in 1977. Eight with Midnight Express,
Alex Ferrari 18:31 Which is my next question.
Oliver Stone 18:33 Yeah. Okay.
Alex Ferrari 18:34 Yeah. So Midnight Express actually was what do you do consider Midnight Express to be the project that really launched your career?
Oliver Stone 18:42 Yeah. I mean, it got me into the Hollywood side of the business. I was in New York, I was dead in the water. I didn't. I tried. I tried. I tried, you know, to get to get all these rejections. I mean, I got hundreds of letters I can. It's no fun. I mean, going begging for things getting small jobs, production assistant here and there. TV work. I worked for almost a year well paid advertising film company for baseball films. I mean, I tried to make it happen. My wife, thank God was working at the UN and had a steady job. So that was we know we made ends meet. And I have to say it was a it was a I almost gave up hope many times before. By the time I reached 30 years old, I talked about it in the book, like 30 years old and you feel like in those days, you feel like you had to have started your career, you know, if not something was something was wrong. And I felt like I had failed in my life. And I go into that and why. And my father, my mother, my grandmother, all this comes into play it's so that's why I ended the film with protune. Because when I ultimately realized my dream, which is to have a success of international proportions, The unbelievable I mean, every country in the world it played, made big money, number three in America domestically. And then on top of it Academy Awards, and then it wins. And Elizabeth Taylor is out there on the stage, giving me a big kiss, you know, she was this, the movie star of my youth as a woman, she was the most glamorous. So you know, this was all unbelievable. And but I had been. So it was, it was a golden time. And that's why I wanted to end the book because that the dream had been achieved. And I showed you how it was achieved and how how much work was required, how much rejection. And I think it'd be very helpful to young people, I got to see the path that we had where I had in the 1970s. It's different now because in many ways, it's a different system, because now it's a lot technically easier to make a film, you don't have to kill yourself. It's much easier to turn out quality with a video camera. And it's up to you. It's much more inventive medium, and techniques are much, much easier. However, you have the audio, you have the consequent problem that if everybody's doing it, you have a huge volume and a limited distribution system.
Alex Ferrari 21:15 Right, right, exactly. It's easy to make the movie now that now the place you have to kill yourself is actually get anyone to see it or sell it.
Oliver Stone 21:22 Exactly, Exactly. I've seen so many so many young filmmakers have sent me stuff. I have piles of films that nobody watches, you know, it's really and there's some talent here some talent there, talents, but I i champion many films that have filmmakers that have gotten some distribution, but it never worked out. I mean, they they died off in the very hard to get through this barrier of distribution and publicity.
Alex Ferrari 21:52 Now you talk about champion, champion filmmakers. Can you talk a little bit about what john Daly did for you as a champion, because we all need a champion, especially in this business, if we can get one.
Oliver Stone 22:04 I dedicated the book to john. I mean, the book for me would took three years to write off and on. That was just a lot of work. I have to tell you, it's like making a movie in his own way. And I take writing very seriously insensitive, I just not scribbling now, I did this I did that. No, I'm looking for themes in the in the book, the themes of growing up themes of going to war and the themes of relationships with your parents, your mom and your dad, your grandparents, the history of that time what was going on World War Two, into Vietnam. And I think there's a lot of consequences at out of World War Two. I was born on the on the right at the end of it in 46. And my mother was a French citizen. My father met her on the street in Paris during the liberation and as an officer in the army, and married her and brought her back to the states in late 45 and early 46. pregnant. So there you go. I mean, it's a war baby, you'd say right. My mother was an immigrant in her way.
Alex Ferrari 23:14 But john, but john really
Oliver Stone 23:16 Is also an immigrant. I mean, I've always done well with immigrants. For some reason, the American movie business was not was was just not letting me get myself done. It was so frustrating by the time I made the hand. I was even with the success of Midnight Express, I was kind of a black sheet people knew me as outrageous somebody who broke barriers, who was trying to say things do different things was fighting for this Vietnam script that everybody said AI it's well written, but we don't want to make it's not gonna make any money. So I mean, that was kind of the guy who was one of those guys around that was known as difficult or not that I was crazy when I was, but I really was upset that things were not going. I wrote a script called born the Fourth of July and I'm platoon in both in seven in the 70s. I neither want to get mad. It was just frustrating because human they were making apocalypse coming home Deer Hunter nice films, but nothing to do with my experience on the on the on the ground over there. They're both the mythic films that come in home very realistic, but about a woman in a marriage in LA. The other two are gigantic films, but they have nothing to do with reality that I saw. I can say that, you know, Michael, Michael Cimino, I worked with him on your the dragon. Big Vision, Napoleonic vision, but reality not so much. And so Francis, also the Godfather.Anyway
Alex Ferrari 24:48 But john was the one but john was the one that kind of,
Oliver Stone 24:50 Well, it's it's just that I was out. I was kind of dead in the water. I may I wrote Scarface and you know, although it's claimed as a Now, at that time it It had a hard road it was I had fight with the producer. And he bad mouth me and around the business and frankly, it was filled with obscenity and violence and people thought I was crazy kinda. I'd done Midnight Express Scarface. Conan the Barbarian. These were tough, violent films. So people saw me as sometime the hand, you know, who is this guy? So it was tough. And I had to I left LA and I. I talked about my cocaine addiction, too. So that was a big problem at one point. But I gave that up. And then I fought my way back with your the dragon, which amino didn't do as well as they'd hoped. So my career was dead. And I said, I can't do it the Hollywood way, the LA way. So I'm going to do it this way. I was in New York at that I had moved back to the city. And I really set out to do Salvador, which was a gigantic film again, I'm crazy. Set is a civil war country in 19 8080s. We started in 85. Journalists, I knew Richard Richard Boyle, a wonderful, wonderful friend, Irishman, had been there and had had a whole story with the death squads down there, and with a woman, and he written about it in his notes, and I took that and with him made it into a screenplay. And I dedicated myself to making this movie at any cost, I would not quit until we made it, I was gonna use my own money I had. At that point, I'd accumulated some money from screenwriting. So I, I had enough to maybe get a bigger loan at the bank. I had a couple of houses when I owned, and so forth and so on. So I was scheming to make this film for $700,000. Now this involves helicopters involves Civil War, it involves involves death squads, but Boyle was so sure that we would get cooperation from the Silva in Salvador, which is a very cost wise, very inexpensive country to shoot him but they never shot a film. It was insane proposition that shows you how desperate I was, I wouldn't give up. And I wrote the script with him. And it was a good script, but nobody wanted to touch it. Because again, it was critical of the US foreign establishment. Oh, God, I just been so many rejections in my life. I can't. I have about 10,000 now. I think you know, I'm sick of it. I'm good at rejection. When you can, something of mine the other day important to me, and I kind of shrugged. It just doesn't add rejection. me. I'm trying to. I think that's the best advice I can give. I, john Daly was introduced to me as an English independent film that he just come to Hollywood, he was making his first steps. He was doing a film with the Falcon movie was Sean Penn. And he was doing he'd been involved with Terminator, the first one, but had had problems with Cameron and him had not gotten along and blah, blah, blah. And also he was involved with.
Alex Ferrari 28:00 Okay, so many. It's hard to keep track.
Oliver Stone 28:03 He was doing that he'd done a nice job with the Gene Hackman movie. Yes. gene editing with the basketball movie.
Alex Ferrari 28:10 Ohh the Hoosiers,
Oliver Stone 28:11 Hoosiers, I love that movie. And so he was he was trying to make films he had some taste. Although he was not known for he was a boxing promoter in Africa during the the alley fight one of them and he had a shady reputation and so forth and so on. But he was a lovely scoundrel. I loved him because he was a Cockney, he was unpretentious from the lower classes and he, you know, he he wanted he didn't have any respect for the establishment. So he was that kind of guy. He he read Salvador and he read it too. I swear this is true story. You never hear it. Very rare story. But he read both he and I, I went in to see him. By the way, I met him through Gerald green who those people who care Gerald green has another character and they were both kind of con men, but they're nice. They were good guys, but they were they were scraping by and I sat in that meeting and john said to me, God, bloody hell good scripts, both of them. Which one do you want to do for us all over? That's a piece of a classic dialogue because you just don't never hear that shit.
Alex Ferrari 29:13 Never.
Oliver Stone 29:13 No one says yes. Like that. No one says they all say maybe and then they forget. Or they all say no, but they don't really know what they're talking about. So anyway, I said I want to do Salvador because it's fresh. It's new. And I'm not going to do platoon because I almost made it three times. And it got destroyed on the way and never get made. It's a curse. It's a fucking curse. Phil. Phil here, Salvador. So I started on Salvador and he actually helped me get it made. And there was some road it's in the book. It doesn't end there. There was so many problems making that film. Jimmy Woods was great, but also an extremely pre Madonna and at that time, and I've become great friends with him. But my god, he made this he made the road. He was the star of the film. And anyway, we We pulled it together with about 4 million, 3 million and the money was always questionable. You never knew if it was going to show up the next day, that kind of movie it was. So paste it was pasted together. And you know what it works? Go see it again, please do.
Alex Ferrari 30:16 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. No, it's no it's a it's a fantastic film. I mean, there's a rawness to it. It's so raw, and it's so visceral. It is it's remarkable. So then you do Salvador and then then I get that almost killed me. Right? And then you just jump into another small movie.
Oliver Stone 30:46 90 speaking parts for civil war, helicopter fight battles, all kinds of shit tank battles. But we got it. We got we somehow finished it. And we ran out of money several times. It's a great story. Then john says to me, and we have fights all the way through the editing because john is concerned about the violence. And there was any length and all I had all the usual issues. Big Vision. Three hours, I had to cut it down to two hours and 10. And the violence oh god I had so they rejected it. Every fucking studio distributor in Hollywood rejected that movie that was heartbreaking. was good. It was a good movie, but too much violence too much
Alex Ferrari 31:29 At the time.
Oliver Stone 31:30 So what does he do? He says, fuck. I'm going to make my own distribution company. And he did. He made this Hemdale distribution company. And he literally distributed the film himself in April of 86. It doesn't it doesn't open I mean, he doesn't have any money to really distributed but at least it gets on the map. And there are some decent reviews that aren't people begin to see it and they get excited about it. But it takes time. Meanwhile, he says go make a go mate platoon in Philippines. So I'm going from Mexico, right to Philippines with $6 million now and I very little platoons a big movie. Again, I've been through the rough road now with my cinematographer Bob Richardson and Mike, and Mike and Bruno and various various people. And Alex Oh, so we made the movie at 6 million more efficiently than we did Salvador. Because we were more experienced. And we had all the usual problems with jungle and heat and sticky and rain and all that shit. It wasn't easy. But we plowed through it because we were tough. And, and, lo and behold, I mean, it really took off. I can't tell you how it took off right away. I mean, the moment there was nothing movie where it'd be be film in the Philippines, sort of a chuck norris thing or something. Nobody gave a shit. And you know, the moment we showed it, it was cut in a rough cut. People started reacting and Gee, oh my god, and there isn't anything like this. It's a reality that they did never seen before. A real a grid a reality, because I'd gone into the details of what I have experienced. And that was missing from film war films in general. I've seen a couple that close Korean films, Korean war films, but at that time, it was now it's almost standard, they do it. But it was hard to get the reality of the jungle and the perception of the jungle. And on top of it, it was critical. It was critical of the whole experience, which I think was the best part of it, it was a message saying this thing is a fraud. To say the whole fucking war was a fraud. There were three lies I mentioned in the book, I go into the details, you know, the concept of friendly fire people Americans right kill don't fire is much greater than people know, the concept of killing civilians in in Vietnam was huge. I mean, it was very abundant. And, and not always, but there was a lot of that going on, and accidentally spill overs and stuff like that. And number three, the biggest lie of all was that we're here to win. We're here winning. And that was never true. From the beginning. It was never true from 1947 on it was never true when we got involved with the French. So there was there's a lot of lying going on. And I go back into the concept, the theme of the lie and how the law influences American life. Because my parents had lied so much to me, at the age of 16, they rip apart. And I think we are the happiest family in the world. But no, it's not true. What's going on, boom, here's what's happening. Lie, lie, lie. This is what I learned in my life that people lie in not necessarily out of malicious intent, but out of comfort, or out of fear, various reasons. So that lie which extends from the divorce and 62 extends into Vietnam, for sure. Because that's all I see. I come back to the United States alive, fucked up. A lot of a lot of Vietnamese dope over there. But I learned a lot from actually from the black troops because they were really worried. To the music. I learned a lot about life humanity stain about love in a way it's it's an interesting story. That's suicide story. I got into some of that in platoon. Some of the Charlie Sheen's best friends are black and they kept me locked. They can't be human I say I say closer to me. And the character of Elias by Willem Defoe is very important too. He becomes a figurehead for the young man. You see him at the end of the war, he's divided, he very divided. He's a man of 242 fathers, he says, the sub two sergeants, the two sergeants represent polar opposites. And one of them one Sergeant kills the other. That's the crux of the movies, one sergeant, after he reports after he's reported for a war crime, but the other Sergeant kills that Sergeant under the cover of battle under friendly fire, and gets away with it, except that the young man sees it. And he has to get even. And it leads to its Dynamo, which is pretty strong, where you know what happens, I mean, it doesn't shut those, that kind of stuff doesn't get shown in more films. If you look at the ref, even the ones that followed, it's generally speaking to get the cooperation of the Pentagon, and the movie studios and all that you got to go along with the patriotic or the United States really cannot be criticized, or any of its wars. Now, considering that we relied our way into the six or seven wars since World War Two, I think the intelligence agencies have lied to us so much in the lie persists in American life. I this is a theme for me, obviously, you see it in JFK, and you see it in its, you'll see it again and again. And Snowden, my last one in 2016, I guess, the director who seeks out the lies
Alex Ferrari 36:50 And exposes them, and that's something that you've been that, since the beginning, since the beginning, almost,
Oliver Stone 36:56 I can't help it. And don't believe me, it's gotten me in a lot of hot war.
Alex Ferrari 36:59 I'm all I could only imagine what all over I can only imagine. Now, after the massive success of platoon by box off that success. And you know, Oscars and awards and all that kind of stuff you go into, in my opinion, a decade defining film, which is Wall Street, it really captures a segment of what the 80s were like, for people who wanted to kind of feel what it was like to be there at that time. And I feel that that's something that you do with a lot of your films, you you you define the era so beautifully, like with the doors and JFK.
Oliver Stone 37:34 I just set out to tell the story in the best style I could, I was able to get better and better at filmmaking. It's all about experience. You know, I'm no genius. And I said, I sat with my crew with Bob and Bruno and Alex, we set a style for each film that worked for that film. In other words, JFK was done in a very specific style for that story, as was Natural Born Killers. And so was in Wall Street was done this way. Born on the Fourth of July was very, very hard and almost cinema scope, vision of reality, literal linear story, we made it linear it was the book was not. So each film, I was never thinking about those as defining something. I think a lot of my work since then has also defined for me new things. But if people don't see it yet, they will wonder. I've gotten more and more into documentaries. I've done nine or 10. Now, eight or nine, including The Untold History of United States as well. I think one of my strongest efforts, it was done in 2012. And it was 12 hours long. It was the history of Untold History of this country from 1898 to 2012. with Mr. Obama. Please see it if you if you haven't seen it, you have to see it
Alex Ferrari 38:50 I highly recommend it. I highly, highly recommend it. Yeah, I see I saw when I came out back in the day and I see it. Yeah.I saw it.
Oliver Stone 38:59 You got to pay attention.
Alex Ferrari 39:00 No, it's Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, when you when you were making Wall Street, did you have Do you did you work at the Paris Mercantile Exchange when you were a teenager? Is that correct?
Oliver Stone 39:12 Have you ever had you know that?
Alex Ferrari 39:14 Well, I do I do a little bit of research. And is that one of the things that kind of drew you to that story? What made you make Wall Street because there's so much passion behind there?
Oliver Stone 39:22 Yeah, I worked on this on this stock on the cocoa and sugar exchange in Paris one summer. And my father was on wall street for most of his life from the 1930s on 1930 234. in that era, know it for you became he was he was a four walk right in the depression and then he became a stockbroker, an analyst, an analyst in those he worked his way up, it was the old system. He was the hell Holbrook character in a sense, or the more Nietzschean character from Wall Street. He was the old fashioned values the way do it the right way. Wall Street for him was a serious religion. It was The engine of American business and I mean, he meant it seriously because it was Wall Street was where you would go to get money, you would go to capitalize your business, for research and for and for capitalization. I mean, it's very important to build companies was his idea of America, it was building. And he saw Wall Street as the most positive factor, which I believe it was for many people, although, obviously, there's some privilege and abuse. Some people take advantage of two more. But my father was a good man. And I don't think he was money was not his goal. It was about his he was an intellectual, he wrote monthly letters, so he really cared about this. He wouldn't have, he wouldn't if he had lived past 85, he would have been, I think, surprised to see a Gordon Gekko type. When when I made the movie with the business was changing, I'd had friends who were making millions of dollars at that age at a young age, my age on Wall Street. Well, actually, I was that that time I was actually 43. So I'm saying that people were making money in their 30s in their some in their late 20s. This was unheard of in My Father's Day, all right now. And of course, it was revealed a new business was revealed the concept of businessmen like Gecko going into companies and getting their stockholders to vote for them and Bill breaking up these companies and in some cases, cannibalizing them, that is to say, taking businesses like big business and take a subsection of it and sell it off. cannibalize it. So what he does in the movie that Charlie Sheen's father is a union rep is a union rep at the airline, he thought he runs the union. I'm sorry. ignore that.
Alex Ferrari 41:39 It's blue star Blue Star, if I remember correctly.
Oliver Stone 41:41 Yeah, he takes on a tip from Charlie that was given to him. He takes advantage of the naivete of Charlie. Douglas, Michael Douglas does any buys into the company. It's one of his many things he's doing. He buys into the company and eventually gets control of it, and then breaks it up, destroying so many jobs. And I showed that it was a pain in that and I think that's important. And the father feels betrayed by the son. The father has a heart attack the son understands the, the scope of his mistake was is huge. So many people get hurt. And all his life, you know, he, in other words, he repents he gets his way, you'll see what happens in the movie, he, he goes, he changes. And he goes after Gekko reveals him to the SEC, and takes the fall, he of himself takes the fall he gets involved, he gets to go to jail. And presumably he's learned his lesson and comes out of jail. And he'll be a good man a better man. That's a true story. But the surprise of the movie, of course, was that first of all, they didn't want to make that either. Because who cares about business? There was not many movies before that. There were serious. This was and they they they distributed it very weirdly. So whole story they all right, right about the next book, but it that it actually hung around and it made money over time, it became a big cult favorite more than that it became a, as you say it affected a lot of young people who went into this and went into Wall Street. Some of them I've met since then some of them made fortunes on Wall Street, they owe me
Alex Ferrari 43:23 A small commission.
Oliver Stone 43:24 In a way I was my father's my father's continuation, because he was a broker made money for people not himself. The but the, the shock was at Michael Douglas, who was the supporting character, the bad guys just becomes the star of the movie in people's minds. And of course, Wednesday, fucking wins the Oscar. The film doesn't get nominated for anything, not even a screenplay. And there are many witty lines in it. But now he went to Michael and Charlie went his own way in his own career. And I think he was a talented young actor. But you know where he went, he went into it wasn't into girls and money. But he was the first part of the film. I don't think he was his second book.
Alex Ferrari 44:10 Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, let me ask you, what do you hope people take away from your life's work,
Oliver Stone 44:17 I have no such intention. I I make the films for to satisfy each inner need. And I try to make it as broad and, and entertaining as possible that you can never tell me if people walk away from Wall Street Oh, man. I'm here. I'm studying engineering and science. And I'm going to drop that I'm going to go to Wall Street and make a fortune. That wasn't the intention.
Alex Ferrari 44:36 Exactly.
Oliver Stone 44:37 So you can never offer the box office success is a misunderstanding between the audience and the other.
Alex Ferrari 44:45 All right, fair enough. Now, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business in today's world.
Oliver Stone 44:55 I would just do it the same way I would write direct myself. I would take The limited amount of money I would make the most creative imaginative film I could. Because you have easier tools, less money is involved. I wouldn't necessarily do it on an iPhone and unless I had to, but you know what I'm saying? It's you can get beat you can make the film The question, of course, is how good is it? And will it be distributed? that's a that's a tough game. And in that regard, I can just say, show it and show it at the right places. I a lot of people take the film festival route, which is pretty long and hard. Because there's so many film festivals now. But you know, you got to do what you got to do to show it to people show it. I would add a few few layers to that. I would say, if you can afford it, go to acting school. Yes, reading drama. Study writing. Acting is very important. You know, I took a triad. I wasn't very good, but you must watch actors, you must understand them to some degree. By going to acting class and seeing the fundamentals how they're formed, how people shaped the characters and some succeeds. I'm done. You see a lot. So that's a very important thing. And I would that's a no an acidic why Melanie? Okay. I have, oh, I would end writing. Keep writing. write a diary. Write write about incidents in your life. Write about your take it and translate the personal onto paper. Now on paper. It's a whole other ballgame. You this happened? It was serious. It was violent. It was this. It affected you. But now is it here on paper? And that's, that's another transfer of energy is it's it's what it's about.
Alex Ferrari 46:46 Okay, now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,
Oliver Stone 46:52 and read
Alex Ferrari 46:54 and read, read, read lots, read lots and not just film books?
Oliver Stone 46:58 She plays that scene, you know, structure plays, and movies. Oh, God, I saw how many movies? You forget movies. That's the problem in movies, you have to see more than once to really absorb them. As you know. You probably seen all the junk movies three four times.
Alex Ferrari 47:14 I've seen a few I've seen a few junk movies a few I've seen a few healthy movies.
Oliver Stone 47:18 I bet you missed frogs.
Alex Ferrari 47:21 I didn't miss frogs. Yes.I have not seen frogs. frogs.
Oliver Stone 47:26 Check it out. AIP 1974 five is a great movie is scared the shit out of me. I've never go back to horror films since then. Except for one the witch that that broke me up to I can't see horror films anymore. And that's why I didn't succeed in horror films because I was too much of a masochist. And I was always turning the the the horror was going inward into the guy's head. So to be a horror filmmaker, you have to be sadistic to some degree you have to want to nail the audience like Hitchcock did or dipalma.
Alex Ferrari 47:57 Now the lesson that took you the longest to learn you were asking me about something else? I'm sorry. Yeah. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the business or in life? Barbara Walters time? If you were a tree, Oliver, what kind of tree? Well, the longest to learn to love. Okay, that's great answer. Great, great answer. Now, where can people purchase your book chasing the light? everywhere? No, you can't. It's
Oliver Stone 48:28 For all I know, it's on Amazon. It's on. You know, iTunes, wherever you you check for your books. That's obviously the place to go. There are good bookstores in New York and LA and I guess in Texas somewhere. There might be that I'm sure I've heard it's in New York. I you know, the distribution in LA, I don't know it's spotty. This COVID thing is ruined so much. So many books that have not been open flat. You know, this book is doing well in spite of that. And we you know, it's there is an interest in it. And I think it's a good biography. But you can always get it somewhere.
Alex Ferrari 49:09 And when can we expect to sequel? And when can we expect the sequel? The next one?
Oliver Stone 49:16 I haven't, I have it in my head. I have diaries. It will take it out a year or two, too long story. It's a hard story. It doesn't end in 86. It's a great pie. And it's the realization of a dream. And it's the end of the act in your life, so to speak. You arrive, I was 40 years old. And I was on in my way I was on top of the world is feeling good. But it's a hell of a hell of a load to carry success. You don't have any idea how many people hit on you, or need things from you. And all of a sudden you're growing and your circle is growing and you have so many people in your life. It's a whole other ballgame.
Alex Ferrari 49:56 I can ask you one last question. throughout your career. You have worked within the studio system, somewhat, you know, finding money here and there. It's in the studio system. How do you work within that system and still maintain the creative fight that you have in all of your work and main fight for that vision?
Oliver Stone 50:13 You have to do it step by step. I don't, there is no formula. thing is I did enter into the into the studio system. You can't say platoon or Salvador were done inside that system. No, they were not. They were independent films. And they were recognized by the Independent Spirit people. But after that, yes, I had an entree and Wall Street. Yes, was made by Fox, what 20th Century Fox under rupert murdoch, and Barry Diller. And that was an eye. And then I worked. But I have to realize I always did what I wanted to do. I never, except for once or twice where I was compromised by the studio and I managed to always do it my way. Was my script, or I co written or even if my name is not on it, believe me. It was my It was my story. It was something I had totally stick put my stamp on. I never, I mean, I never I never worked from it never got scripts from the studio never worked. They'd say, Are you interested in this or lands? Sometimes it was a very big commercial film, but I couldn't do it. I couldn't get myself in. Because a commercial film in their minds and action film has to have a climax every 15 minutes or an action scene. And that's for putting a shape on it right away away. You know, Tom Cruise has to run here and he has to do that. And after 15 more minutes, yeah, you know, you it's it fucks you up? You got to do it. I found my way through it. I don't you know, talk radio was done independently again, with Garth Verbinski in Canada. And then president. The film that was followed by Born on the Fourth of July was done under difficult conditions with universal limited money. But Cruz was a movie movie star. And it was a story about a paraplegic. So obviously, they're not too keen on seeing Tom Cruise in a wheelchair for half the movie. You know, you understand these kinds of problems come up, always fighting about it. JFK, I sold it as a thriller. I sold it to Warner Brothers. They love the idea. It's a murder story. We they didn't think about nor did I have all the political implications of saying this. So but I had no doubt that I was following that a true path of Jim garrison who had started this horrible investigation that shocked the world, but he actually stuck to his guns. He was the first public figure a DA in New Orleans who actually did that. Nobody else opened their mouth about that awful crime that was buried in the bullshit of the Warren report. garrison had tremendous godson paid a huge price, that kind of thing. Nixon was done in from inside me, so made by Warner Brothers wouldn't make it it was made by an independent mariachis, not Mariota, Eddie Andy Vanya. Independent doors was made independent with Mario, because you see, I would go back and forth. These were independent producers became empowered in the 80s. From video sales, that was a whole difference. We have video sales, and that group of people Dino Doris was one of them. But Mary Oh, Andy, john Daly, they were able to carve out a little kingdoms from an Harvey Weinstein out of their little out of these video sales. And that became a business until it became abuse as all these things do. The numbers changed. And by the late 90s, the middle 90s the numbers were insane. And people were expecting too much. It's always the golden goose, you know, every okay video sale, and then we're gonna get we're mark up the prices. And we say it's worth this much. And it changes it distorts, and people accurate started asking for 15 $20 million, a picture, it all changed and became more corporate. And that's what happens. The corporations move in because the money is bigger. And these independent producers start to disappear. You can you can track the flow of them through time. And a lot of them disappear because the core studios or the corporations take over that business.
Alex Ferrari 54:19 Right. Oliver, I appreciate your time so much. Thank you so much for being on the show. And and thank you for doing being you all these years. Yeah. Thank you very, very much for that. And I recommend the book highly for everybody to read. So think it's going to fit
Oliver Stone 54:35 The question. Are you going to finish it because
Alex Ferrari 54:38 It's right. It's right here.
Oliver Stone 54:40 I won't finish it.
Alex Ferrari 54:41 Oh, no, I will. I will. I love I love books like this and you're writing in the book. I can feel like I'm there. And that's such a wonderful experience. And you're here and I'm hearing stories like I'm a movie geek. So all these kind of stories I love listening to and the inside stuff of stuff and I want That was when I picked up the book I expected to be like, you know, this is an Oliver Stone book. If it's anything like his movies, he's going to be raw, and he's going to tell the truth. And that's exactly what I've gotten so far, as far as I've gotten in the book. So I really do appreciate you putting this book out. And I hope this book and the show inspires many filmmakers and screenwriters out there. So thank you so much for your time, sir.
Oliver Stone 55:21 Remember the lie?
Alex Ferrari 55:23 Is the is the theme is the theme. Thank you, my friend. Merry Christmas.
Oliver Stone 55:27 It's a line of dialogue. And Nixon, by the way,
Alex Ferrari 55:30 yeah, of course,
Oliver Stone 55:31 it Nixon says that he's a great scene. Okay. Take care of yourself, Alex.
Alex Ferrari 55:34 All right, my friend. Thank you again. Thank you. Bye bye. I want to thank Oliver Stone so much for coming on the show and sharing his filmmaking journey with the tribe. As I promised this was going to be a legendary episode of the indie film hustle podcast, and I hope I did not disappoint you guys. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to read Oliver's new book chasing the light writing, directing, and surviving Platoon, Midnight Express Scarface Salvador and the movie game, all you have to do is go to the show notes at indiefilmhustle.com/425. And if you want to get a free copy of the audio book, just head over to free film book.com and sign up for a free trial of audible and you can download all of his books for free and listen, I will also put that link in the show notes. As a filmmaker Oliver Stone really loves to stir up controversy he is a larger than life figure. And again, such a unique filmmaker that was able to play it and still is able to play within the studio system, but many times is much more at home, outside the studio system working with less money and making independent films. And again, I hope this interview inspires filmmakers and screenwriters out there to never give up and never surrender their dreams. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.
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I have a treat for the tribe today. Last week we had screenwriter Eduardo Cisneros on the show discussing his new film Half Brothers. Today we have his co-writer and producer of the film Jason Shuman. Jason is a writer and producer who has made over 20 motion pictures grossing more than $500 million worldwide as well as produced over 100 episodes of television.
Shuman has produced four films that reached number one at the box office with Darkness Falls, The Messengers, Bangkok Dangerous, and the critically acclaimed Lone Survivor. Other well-known films include the 2017 docudrama Rebel In The Rye, Little Black Book, Daddy Day Camp, Middle Men and the beloved comedy Role Models.
On the television side, Shuman has also produced shows including TBS comedy Are We There Yet?with Ice Cube, and served as Executive Producer on the FX show Anger Management and the Emmy® nominated TV movie, Dawn Anna. His new film is Half Brothers.
Renato, a successful Mexican aviation executive, is shocked to discover he has an American half-brother he never knew about, the free-spirited Asher. The two very different half-brothers are forced on a road journey together masterminded by their ailing father, tracing the path their father took as an immigrant from Mexico to the US.
I first met Jason years ago at the Sundance Film Festival where I spoke to him on the Indie Film Hustle Podcastabout the film he had in the fest called Rebel in the Rye. In this episode, we discuss his career as a producer, how he went “all in” to become a serious screenwriter, how Danny Strong(Gilmore Girls, Empire, Billions) helped him become a better storyteller, and his epically funny new film Half Brothers.
Alex Ferrari 0:03 I'd like to welcome to the show Jason Shuman, man, how you doing Jason?
Jason Shuman 0:24 Hey, good. Great to be back. Alex. Good to see you. Thank you for having me.
Alex Ferrari 0:34 Yes. This is your first time on the bulletproof screening podcast but you are a friend of the show from indie film hustle back in the day. We we did a when I did my I think it was my first Sundance interviews. When I was at Sundance doing interviews and you were one of my I was lucky enough to talk to you while you were there with rebel in the Rye.
Jason Shuman 3:51 Man, that was a for me. That was an amazing Sundance, my favorite Sundance that I've ever experienced. It was so great.
Alex Ferrari 3:58 And it was the shining outside it was snowing so much that year it was like, like, but no joke was like a like a dilution of snow outside. It was insane. how crazy
Jason Shuman 4:12 It was special because I loved rebel and working long and so I was so proud of the movie, but also because I had so many friends that wanted to come to be a movie premiere. So I rented this like house and it was like about 14 of my friends. Some who brought their wives. So it was couples and it was like a fraternity house I had there were like four rooms and the rooms had bunk beds in it. So they were like husbands and wives sleeping together and bunk beds all so if there was this I had a great sort of thing and I was like, Hey look, I'll I can promise you as if you come with me everywhere. I can get you in if you roam on your own. Good luck to you. And so everyone was like it was like my little entourage Had the whole time it was best.
Alex Ferrari 5:03 Do you remember? Do you remember what we what we did the interview in that in that penta. And that kind of like penthouse area was like it was like that. That's where I was staying. So it's like this kind of kids camp for grownups going to Sundance. It's like camp for grownups, if you stay anywhere within the vicinity of Main Street, unless you're rolling really hard, and you're one of the big stars, you get your own private everything, but generally, but generally, there's just no space. So that you have to get you got people, you know, who are very high end, like people in the industry, big producers and directors and actors. And they're, they're doing exactly what you said, they're sleeping bags around the corner somewhere to Matt. They're like the two of them in a bunk bed. Like it's,
Jason Shuman 5:50 Happy to be here.
Alex Ferrari 5:51 Yeah, it's, it's, it is such an it's just an amazing experience. And I can't wait to actually experience it again. Hopefully, I don't get it back, you know, hopefully after it. But so before we get started, can you tell the audience how you got into the business because you have a unique path to your screenwriting side?
Jason Shuman 6:11 Well, I mean, I look i was i was a film geek. Since I was 10 years old, I was riding my bike to the mall to see everything in anything. I had a note from my mom, that in the movie theaters knew me to let me see R rated movies if I wanted to. Because I had that note that would never fly today, by the way, like I was just a little film geek dreaming of going to Hollywood and making movies and, and my dream was to go to USC film school. So when I got in, I thought like the heavens had parted. And like I was anointed the next coming. And then you get to orientation. And you realize, so did the other 60 people that got in everyone felt the same way. So you kind of have to have a big wake up call and say, all right, you know, I'm just an 18 year old freshmen time to work. And so I got to go to USC film school and meet the most incredible group of friends that I still am very close with to this day. And I had a wonderful experience there. I got to do internships because I was living at USC, and you get to be so close to Hollywood. And so I didn't know I was just doing everything in anything making movies on the weekends, doing internships on days, I didn't have classes, and one of my internships led to an internship with a guy named Marnell, Koeppel Sim, who passed away two years ago. But that was a big thing. Because he was he was a huge producer at the time, she's huge and won an Oscar for Petunia, just a couple years earlier, it had the fugitive, which was not only ox opposite, but got nominated for an Oscar. And he was in the middle of making seven devil's advocate eraser. outbreak. And so there I was interning for this for this company, this man, he had this huge production company at Warner Brothers. And so I felt like I had like the king of the world, even though I was just making copies and getting coffee. And that led to a job when I graduated. So I got some my first, you know, big break coming out of there. But to be honest, I kind of had wanted to be a writer, director, as we all do, and we, but because I was offered this job, everyone was like, Well, why don't you just take it? You can just learn what do I know? I'm 22 years old. So I took the job. And I spent a couple years there and it was a great sort of induction into the business from a Reno film school is not real reality.
Alex Ferrari 8:48 No, stop, stop. Stop it. You mean to tell me when you're out in the real world. They don't talk about Kurosawa all the time.
Jason Shuman 8:59 My favorite freshman year, my buddy herb Ratner, still a close friend. He goes, he calls me up. It's like a Tuesday night and he goes, man, there's like a sneak preview of Philadelphia, with Denzel and Tom Hanks, we got to go and I was like, I have a geology test tomorrow. And he's like, we're talking about, you know, who cares about the geology is let's go see this movie. And I was like, you're right. I'm a college student. Now I don't have to study for the geology does that though. So my, my, my going rogue as a college student was not going to that party and getting drunk on Tuesday night. It was like going to the man's Chinese and see a sneak preview. That to me was like being the rebel.
Alex Ferrari 9:45 This was your Animal House. This was your house.
Jason Shuman 9:49 So there was a lot of that in college, a lot of sneaking off. So, um, so I worked for Arnold for many years and rose up there. And then I had this most amazing opportunity to start my own production company with a guy named William sherek. And so we went off and I quit, I quit that job, I went, and we started to make some movies. And one of the original ones was darkness falls, which I can't believe now was like 18 years ago.
Alex Ferrari 10:24 And if I, if I can stop you for a second, because when we spoke the first time, I actually know the story of darkness falls, how it got produced. I'm, like, one of my co hosts was with me, Sebastian, he was like, how do you know that? I'm like, dude, I'm a film geek. And any story about a filmmaker who made it like that any because that was a lottery ticket. Essentially, he had a great short, that he had a great short that got picked up. And then they turned it into a feature, which then was a big hit at the time. And I was like, of course, I know that story every you know, if you have to know that just kind of like they'll mariachis and the clerks and like he was one of those. He was one of those guys that had that that window. Yeah. So it was great.
Jason Shuman 11:08 Like he was he is and was the nicest guy Jonathan, he became close friend of William and eyes. And so it was a magical experience, because we go off and make this movie. We're all in our mid 20s. And we shot it in Australia and, and anyway, we bring it back in the studio didn't know what they sent these three guys off doing. And then they just put it God bless Tom sherek. Who, who was like, let's put it out on Superbowl weekend. And everyone was like, Super Bowl Weekend. That's a two day weekend. No one goes to the movies on Super Bowl Sunday. And he's like, Yeah, but there's no competition. So we came out in 2003 Superbowl weekend and we were number one for this little movie. And that sort of helped William and I get a deal at the studio and and and then we were off to the races making a bevy of movies over the next 10 years. And we just flying over genres like we did the Messenger's Sony we did little black book, we did role models, we were just hopping all over the place with comedies with horror with romantic movies, some family movies, so it was a great run. I really loved it.
Alex Ferrari 12:24 Now, let me ask you a question though. How as a as a producing team or as a production company? Yeah. The the standard frame of thought is to pigeonhole yourself or at least it's your, your, the heart like Blum house, he's like, you can't Blum house, you know, slapstick comedy, I'm not gonna probably go see. But, um, maybe I would, because I'd be curious. But generally as a as a production company, or as a producer, you kind of want to knit yourself like Arnold was an action. He was the action dude, he was the actor. He was like, he reminded me very much of Joel Silver like him and and Joel
Jason Shuman 12:56 Intern are as well.
Alex Ferrari 12:58 Yeah. So that's, we have to have a conversation about that another day. But, but yeah, those kind of guys. So you were jumping all I saw me when looking at your IMDb, you're everywhere, like role models horror, like it's all over the place.
Jason Shuman 13:11 That's my own fault. And probably to my own detriment, because we had we came right out of the gate with two fairly successful horror movies and darkness falls and the messengers, and we were getting a lot of offers for people like can make horror here can make horror there. But the truth is, I'm just I love movies, and I love stories. And I love all kinds of movies. Like I'm just not I see everything. I don't care small, big, which genre you are. I see it all indie movies, and, and I just was like, William, I can't sit in another meeting and talk about the mythology of these of the ghosts and what their motivations are. And I started to become creatively stagnant because, you know, yeah, we had to meet in a row and they were hits but we probably developed 15 others at the time. So I was in so many meetings and reading so many scripts having to do with this thing and that thing, you know, blumhouse came later and certainly he grabbed that with paranormal and he wrote it and that's probably what William and I should have done. But I was so excited to read little black book. I was so excited to read Bangkok dangerous, so excited to deal with being meetings on role models and talk about like, the big set pieces because I loved Judd Apatow and I our offices were right next to Judd Apatow and I was like, but I want to make movies like him too. So it's great. Just to have my own wanting to flex the that muscle of like being just telling different kinds of stories. So that's what we just kept doing.
Alex Ferrari 14:53 And it seems to have worked out okay for you. You've done, you've done no complaints. It's like and I think Once you've set yourself up as either I mean for screenwriters would you recommend screenwriters stay kind of on, on on a genre at the beginning, so at least they kind of put themselves in that box. And then they can kind of spread out like once you're Aaron Sorkin, you can write whatever you want. Once you're Shane Black, you can pretty much write whatever you want. But at the beginning, the town kind of likes to know what you are, if you're a horror, got your horror, got your comedy, comedy,
Jason Shuman 15:24 because your reps need to know how to sell you they need to know how to introduce you to the town. And that is done easier for them. And for you, if you kinda like this is the I want to make the next blumhouse movies or I want to be the next jet Apatow if you can kind of sell yourself that way. It just makes their job easier, whatever that is,
Alex Ferrari 15:45 right. But but you actually because you were jumping all over the place that became kind of your brand. Like, oh, he he does everything.
Jason Shuman 15:54 That's what people don't. They're like, Well, yeah, you you can look at my IMDb and you're like Jesus, but I you have to understand when I went in to make daddy day camp, which seems funny now, right? But Sony called William and I and said, Would you be interested in producing it? Like the kid in me is like I grew up on those Herbie the lovebug movies and can't movies like meatballs. And I was just like, Wait a second, I am going to submerse myself in can't movies. And I am going to try to make the greatest can't movie for the this generation of eight to 12 year olds. So it's like you think like, Schumann, why would you go off and make daddy day camp? It's like, well, because to me, that was an exciting opportunity to give kids of that generation, a camp movie that maybe they would watch over and over again. And I went nuts. I watched so many camp movies, not just the ones that I remembered. I was trying to submerse myself and what made camp movies fun, what kids would want to see today. So it's like, even though the result may have not been this beloved, like legendary can't movie that was the attempt that was and that goes for everything. When we were making Bangkok dangerous, you know, it's like, we were thought we were making, we tried to make an action movie that could parallel, you know, the action movies that they and we thought there would be like, this was Bangkok dangerous, then there would be like Shanghai dangerous, then there would be we were trying to set up so people have to understand sometimes it works like role models, lone survivor, etc. And sometimes it does, you tried everything and just fell a little short. It's not like you didn't work any harder. Right? You did any more to make it a great movie. So you just put them out there and go, let's see what happens.
Alex Ferrari 17:56 Now I was when we spoke. When we spoke at Sundance those years ago, you were at that point talking about getting into screenwriting, and that you were moving to New York to work with the work with Danny Thank you, Danny, with Danny strong and, and kind of just like, you know, go under his wing a little bit. You were telling us like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn how to be a screenwriter. So what made you jump from being a producer to wanting to go into the very non competitive world of screenwriting?
Jason Shuman 18:30 There's many things, it's just you get a little older. And you start to say to yourself, how do I want to keep challenging, but there was also that kid in me who look I had what William and I got to do at the young age, we got to do it and the opportunities I had learning from Arnold at 22 years old. I wouldn't take that back for anything. But there was that 1415 year old and me that was like, but I wanted to, I wanted to write I wanted to create stories from the beginning not to sit with writers who and I love and respect Good, good screenwriting. So I thought either I put my money where my mouth is, and see if I have it in me, or just, you know, go and continue to be a producer and keep trying to evolve that way. And it was Danny who called me and said, I want you to drop everything. And I want you to move to New York. And I just want you to like, Come meet with me every day. And just let's talk screenplays let's I want you to write and I'm going to read your stuff. And I'm going to critique it. And I'm just going to give you a bootcamp and I was like, how can I turn this down? That's amazing. We had been pals since 18 since USC film school, but like Danny at that time was, was at the like he had just won every award for game change and the height of the butler coming out and he he hadn't even created Empire yet. Which I got to be sitting there with him while he wrote the pilot for empire that was pretty cool. He kept like turning his computer going like, Is it me? Or does this seem seem really fun to you? And I'd read it and it'd be like cookie, doing something like they have the vision for cookie way, way at the beginning. So I owe it all to Danny. Like, really?
He I did. I did what he said, I left my life in Los Angeles, and I moved to New York. And I sat and wrote every day with him, he texts me in the morning, here's the cafe I'll be at, I'd show up. I do my stuff. He'd be doing his stuff at lunch, I'd asked him a bunch of questions. And when I was ready to show him stuff, he'd read it. And he was brutal. He was brutal with me, but it was helpful. He'd give me all the ways he approached writing all the sort of mottos that he would take how he approached a blank page, how he would approach characters, how we would approach everything. And I just tried to make that habit. And it took a while he, it was a year and a half of writing, handing him stuff and him Wow. shitting on it. And finally, after a year and a half, he thought that maybe I had morphed myself into a writer who could be consistent. I don't think he was looking for a good scene here. And there. He was looking for consistency. He was looking for, like my storytelling to have evolved to a place where he felt like, now I could go off and maybe sell some stuff or, or or had honed my voice. I mean, that's a hell of a friend.
Alex Ferrari 21:39 I gotta say,
Jason Shuman 21:40 yeah. One of the greatest things he taught me. So any screenwriters listening was, he was like, sit down and write write down a list of things you love, and things you hate. Like things, things that anger you because that's where recount came for him. It's like, it's like, he hated that election process, the 2000 election, he was angry about the outcome, and it really boiled his blood. And so, you know, then he goes and buys some books and reads about the Florida recount. And that turns into a story that he outlines. And so that was a big thing for me. You know, like, if you look at a lot of the projects I'm working on now, this show I have at Apple. Eduardo and I are writing short circuit, my HBO show about the Lakers. It's all stuff in the 80s because one of the things I wrote down on that when I would do those exercises is I love the 80s I just do. Yeah, that was my era. I love the music. I love the television. I love the movies. I love the campiness, I love the outfits, I love my memories. I like what malls looked like I liked just that. And so it that list he had me do really reverberated in the work. Not all the work that I've done in the last four or five years, but a lot of it is like things that really angered me are things that I just love so much that I want to live in that world and with those characters. So that was just every I could we could do a whole couple hours on the Danny strong method and how well it works. But it really was,
Alex Ferrari 23:24 I'm not sure I'm not sure everybody can afford that, that that seminar for a year and a half. And I'm not sure Danny has the bandwidth. I know I'm joking, I'm joking. You should you should actually call Danny. Like Danny, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna put out a seminar, it's gonna be called the Danny strong method. I'm not paying you anything, unfortunately. But I think Danny strong. That's amazing. So you said something really interesting. Like, how do you approach a blank page? How is there? is there is there are there some tips because that is the most one of the most daunting things a writer has to do is, and it's not a page anymore. Is that blinking cursor? Generally speaking, yeah. How do you approach a blank screen?
Jason Shuman 24:10 This is it was Danny had always sort of taught me that. Don't get it right, get it written. I don't care if it's the worst scene you've written in the world. And Eduardo subscribes to that same theory. So when I started working with Eduardo was nice to see that like, I have friends I have very successful screenwriter friends, who they'll spend the whole day on that one page so they get it perfect. And God bless them. But I found that what Danny's method and Eduardo's method, which is just just write the worst version of the scene, I don't care because the rewriting it to us is the fun part. So I feel like I've written the most amateurish worst awful scenes that I wouldn't show like my closest friends, but then you go back and you immediately start to realize how lazy it is how cheesy the dialogue is. But at least you're not looking at a blank page anymore. At least you're looking at some semblance of a scene. And somehow, even if you're rewriting the whole thing from scratch, it somehow to me makes it mentally easier. If I'm rewriting a scene that exists, then then staring at that blank page. So that's what I've always done these last couple years.
Alex Ferrari 25:29 I mean, from I can't agree with you more, I always find the rewriting process so much easier than the writing process for me. And when I'm like, I write a lot of Britain, but my books and, and I do my writing, I write, like seeing the announcement from our iPod, my blogs and stuff, but it's just starting sucks. It sucks. But the rewriting part, so sometimes I'm writing I'm like, this sucks. I know. It sucks. I'm just gonna keep Yeah, that Oh, that was horrible. Let me just keep going. Or is this is this is atrocious. I'll never let anyone read this. And I'll just keep going. And then the next morning, I'll come back and like, Okay, this is exactly what I thought it was really hard. But why don't we do this? Why don't we move over this over here. And let me rewrite this, oh, I have a brand new that this really bad paragraph that I wrote, has now set me on another path in my mind. To write a brand new paragraph has nothing to do with the old paragraph. But it's a complete rewrite from basically and just go. So it's, it's it keeps it keeps the thing flow. And it keeps the things it's kind of like editing I've been I've been an editor for 20 odd years. So like when you edit the scene, you edit a horrible, just get it all just cut it just cut it. It's master shot theater, there's no nuance, get it up there, then you could start slicing and dicing
Jason Shuman 26:42 same, it's the same. And I wish you know a lot of writers beat themselves up and like everyone has their process. Everyone approaches it however they want. This works for me. And the tidbits that Danny's taught me or at least the ones that I retained are that way because I think they spoke to me. But like I remember I showed up one day. And I got a terrible sleep. And I was just kind of groggy. And I was like, Danny, I don't know if I feel it today. And he's like, doesn't matter. Keep writing. And I'm like, I got like two hours of sleep. And he's like, let me tell you something. When you read your screenplay, you got 126 pages of crap, that you're ready to sit down and read through. You won't remember which scene you wrote on that day when you came and you're like, Oh, I feel great today. Remember which scenes we felt great about which seat because it's all just sort of blends in. So the goal every day should just get those two pages done, get those three pages each day, just get that done. Because then when you stack it all together, you probably won't even remember and it probably won't even be as bad. Just like on those days where you think you wrote brilliance. And then you go read it next day. You're like, wasn't that brilliant? I mean, I walked away. I walked away the day before thinking like, Man, what a great day of writing. It's, it's it's the same thing. It's never as good as you thought it was. But it's also never as bad as you thought it was. And so just keep doing it. Just keep writing. Don't let yourself get excuses. And just kind of keep powering forward and like that. That's what makes Danny Danny because it's like yeah.
Alex Ferrari 28:31 I and I think it's I always find it to be better to be prolific than to be perfect. Yeah, there's a lot of directors, a lot of screenwriters out there who just put out stuff. And yeah, they're not all home runs. But a lot of them a couple might be strikeouts, but there's a lot of singles, a lot of doubles, a lot of triples, and there's maybe a one or two homerun situation in there. If I may, if I may be as cliche is to use a baseball metaphor with it, but but I always find that it works. Baseball metaphors work. That's why it's so cliche.
Jason Shuman 29:02 One of my favorite stories from Forrest Gump because I got to work with this guy, Charles Neuwirth, who was the UPN line producer on Forrest Gump. And he said like Zemeckis had been talking about the shots he wanted to get, and it took like six hours to set up, and they could only do it during a certain time of the day. And so they get it all ready, they're rehearsing it, they go to shoot the scene. It's not quite what he wanted, and he just turned to Charles and what they can all be gems. can all be gems, but when you mix it in with Forrest Gump, you have so many great things about it. Does it matter that not everything is and I try to remember that they can all be gems, but if you've got enough gems in there, yeah, it'll be good stuff. it sparkles. It
Alex Ferrari 29:48 will sparkles. Now, as you know, obviously you've been around town for for a while you've been working in town when you started to go out as a screenwriter. How did the town respond to you? As you know, because everyone used because this town is very loves boxes and loves putting people in boxes. So when you came out from, hey, you've been a successful producer. But here's my script I need you to read. How did the town respond to you? I'm curious. Um,
Jason Shuman 30:19 I had to fight that I had to convey my conviction in my heart and soul that that this was like, not just a thing I was trying that this was a full commitment that I was making, that I wasn't looking to just sort of dabble my foot in it. And I meant it. When I packed up and moved to New York. I was like, I'm all in. And so I had to convey that this was not just some hobby, and I was hoping that I was going to succeed by hook or by crook. And so yeah, I had to deal with it was nice that when agents would read it, and they didn't know who I was, because I'm not, I'm not Brian Grazer. I'm not just like, not everybody knew who I was. So I ended up having some, when I started sending my material out to agencies, tried to send it to people I thought maybe didn't know who I was, but who I knew and admired. And so those were some initial meetings that went really well. And I did, I was honest with them that I have a producing career, but I'm hoping I'm hoping that my knowledge and my background of producing will only make me a better, better writer, especially in television, where TV or TV show running and TV writing, a lot of it is producing too, I have hung around enough a TV shows to see that the the show runner, half your job is overseeing the writers and the other half is dealing with the network and the studio and dealing with the politics of and that is in itself producing. So I knew I could combine both in a way that could be advantageous to the writing. And then along the way, I almost wanted to call up every writer I've ever worked with as a producer, and say, I'm so sorry that you have to take notes from me, because now that I've given myself a grad school in screenwriting, and I feel like I understand screenwriting, so much better now than when I did as a producer. I'm like, you had to sit there and listen to my notes. Like, and now I feel like I was just talking out of my ass. Like, how did I not do this sooner, at least sort of dive into screen, right? I feel it makes you a better producer to sort of understand the nuances of not only being a writer, but just on how story works and structure and characters and God just like it's just crazy to me that that the way this town is built where you could get a really good job like I was given right out of college, and in a room with million dollar writers and have Arnold Coppola single, like Jason read the script, meet with me with that million dollar writer give him notes. And they have to listen to me. And they're very cordial and respectful. Because I represent Arnold COPPA Xin. But I'm like thinking back upon that now, not only was I I should call those people up and be like, thank you for not just being like your biggest moron Jason, who sent you into this room.
Alex Ferrari 33:39 And that's isn't that amazing. But that is that is the way this town works. It is just ridiculous that there's a huge producer, a legendary huge producer, who sends in a 20 something and goes, I kind of like I trust your taste, Jason, go read it. And then go talk to this million dollar plus screenwriter and give him notes. Who's been who's written probably 30 or 40 screenplays in his life, probably even more, you've never written one. And you've written you've read maybe five, so maybe 10 I'm being generous. So give him you're giving me notes based on the video store experience you have.
Jason Shuman 34:20 I would do that. I would prepare all night. I'd be like in order to make this character more three dimensional. This is what you should do this to do. And I was prepared on it. But Jesus Lord, okay, all right. I guess my youthful, like, fake it till you make it kind of stuff.
Alex Ferrari 34:41 And that's and that's, you know, that's a really good lesson for screenwriters listening today, because you're gonna deal with young Jason's. And by the way, Jason is one of the nicer ones that I've I've ever met in this business, but you're gonna get, you know, we all deal with people who are put in positions of power that don't have they shouldn't be there. Especially talking to creatives who might know it's, I mean, it's this. It's the oldest, I mean, manque. I mean, manque just came in late. I mean, so it's been happening since the dawn of our industry. Someone just said, you know, someone told Chaplin, you know, when you fall, it's not really ringing true. So can you put the banana peel over to the like, there's telling you, you're doing it wrong, or wants to put in their stuff. But so how did you deal with? How would you? How do you suggest screenwriters deal with notes? Because that is something that every screenwriter no matter what, what level they're at, unless you're Tarantino, or one of these big writer directors who have every does every Yeah,
Jason Shuman 35:46 sure. Yeah. Um, look, I think one of the skills of the good screenwriters, the ones who have a lot of success working within the studio, and the network system, is learning how to address notes and interpret notes without just being a typist, like your job. And I think they expect this of you is not to literally take the notes and just go and do note number one, and just go into the document and change it. They're giving you what's bumping them about what you've written, and they're trying to articulate it, hoping that you will get it. And then that's, that is an art form that I'm constantly trying to work on. And having Eduardo getting to work with Eduardo makes it easier because we're just two of us. So we can talk it through. You know, people like Danny who works solo, Danny just has an interpretive mind. So he's like, Okay, I know what they want. I, I can read between the lines. And so I guess it's just something you should, if you're a writer, if you have a partner, a room that you work in, talk it through, maybe from talking it out loud, you kind of like, oh, here's Okay, I see what they're and then you bring your own creativity to the note and your changes, so that it doesn't mess up the overall tone and theme that you were going for. That is an art form and of itself. And if you can become good at interpreting network and studio notes, you will be a successful writer. I'm still working on it to this day, I do feel like my past as a producer helps. But believe me, there are still plenty of documents I get, or I'm like head scratching like shit. This is bumping them. But the note is confusing me. It's confusing me and I don't understand what exactly they want. And sometimes it takes a few days of it. And I like talking it through like did they mean this? I mean, look, if you have a good relationship with them, you can call them and ask them to explain it. But a lot of times we've done that, and I'm even more confused.
Alex Ferrari 37:58 Exactly. Now how did you get it? Now how did you get involved with Eduardo and and what is it like writing with a partner? You know, because I'm also a soloist I I've written with partners before and sometimes it's been great sometimes it hasn't been good. Eduardo loves working with you because I had him on the show as well obviously. So he speaks nothing but high highly of you sir. Except off off air off off air. off air. He was destroying you, but on air. He really really enjoyed working with you wasn't working with how is it working with it with Waldo? And how did you guys meet?
Jason Shuman 38:36 Well, look, Alex, I'll go deep. I have had no luck in my personal social life finding a like as to my mother's dismay, like, finding some married started family. Yeah. Not for lack of trying. I just can't seem to click with with someone out there. I know. It's harder. Now we're in a pandemic. But even before I can't use that as an excuse, somehow in my business world. I've had two partnerships, me and William sherek. And me and Eduardo. And they both came very naturally. It was not forced. It was not anything. It was like I met William. In college, we totally clicked. And then naturally we got we just started working together. There was no sort of like, like formal like, thing. It just felt so natural that we were into each other's Yang like and then the same thing with Eduardo like I just met him. Coincidentally, it was kind of full circle from co Pilsen because my sort of mentor at Cobo Wilson was this executive named Sanford panitch. And he's sort of the opposite of what I was just describing. He was a young executive who was brilliant, just brilliant, even at a young age, and he found Arnold so many of those movies like like, seven and future And devil's advocate, and eraser, he found those scripts and he developed them. And he was like 2526. At that time, he's amazed. And now he runs. Well, he's president of Sony under Tom Rothman. And he's just that good. He's just that good. And I was having breakfast with them. And he had read some of my stuff that I had been writing and he thought it was good, thank God. And he said, Look, I just signed this deal with this guy, Eduardo Cisneros. He just wrote and produced this massive hit called instructions not included, which Sanford couldn't speak highly enough of. And he said, The guy is like the Judd Apatow of Mexico. He He's created all these hit shows. Now he's created his movie. I just signed an overall deal with them. Why don't you meet them? And if you guys come up with an idea that you can work on together. Great. Do it here at Fox at that time, Sanford was at Fox. And so it was Sanford. He kind of like
Alex Ferrari 41:01 Matchmaker, he's a matchmaker.
Jason Shuman 41:04 And so we we met in a conference room at Fox, and I came with like, literally 10 ideas that I had prepared. I was always the Judd Apatow when I had offices near him. He always said like, when he worked the comedy clubs, and when Sandler would say like, Hey, man, could you write me like three jokes. And he would write like 20 jokes, because he just wanted to show Sandler like that he was up for the challenge that like, he wasn't going to waste this opportunity. So that always kind of like, Okay, I'm gonna come prepared every time and I wrote down 10 ideas. And I pitched them all to him, and Eduardo hated all of them. So then we were like, well, then we just started shooting the shit. And then we just started talking. And then I somehow stumbled on a germ of an idea that he was interested in, but it was not fleshed out. And then we ended up meeting for coffee another day, talking about the idea more, which led to more meetings. And then we eventually took the idea to Sanford, he bought it. And then we were able to write our first script together. And I'm not kidding. It's kind of like, it was so easy. It was so natural, that, like, his strengths were my weaknesses. Vice versa. His work ethic was the mine, in terms of like, you know, being available for each other, we didn't have other stuff going on, like, that frustrated each of us. And so it was such a wonderful process that when that was over, he was like, hey, I've had this other idea. Maybe we could work on it together. And we ended up selling that as a TV show to Fox didn't get made. But we got to write another thing together. And in during that is when he said like, Hey, I have this idea for this movie called half brothers. And then he's like, now we just pitched that one together. So it just happened very naturally. Where would there was never like an official, hey, let's shake on it. We're working.
Alex Ferrari 43:05 We're writing tea.
Jason Shuman 43:07 It just happened naturally. And so I'm just grateful. I'm just grateful to the universe, that in my work life, they brought me to partnerships that have just been magical, where in my personal life, I'm like, still waiting, still dealing with the phone calls from my mother being like,
Alex Ferrari 43:26 Oh, my God, I dealt with that so much that my mom, my mother actually connected me with my wife, she actually matched make me with my wife, believe it or not. And it worked. It works. By the way, it was a swing and a miss of a handful of times before. But it was Oh, man. on that. Yeah. Cuz it was like, every time she would try to hook me up with something I'm like, this is Do you even know who I am? Like, why did you Why would you send her to me? Like, this makes no sense. But yeah, so that's, that's great. And then as far as writing, I mean, cuz you wrote by yourself for a little while before you start writing with a partner. So yeah, when you're writing with a partner, what Eduardo said at least was that you guys just kind of, you'd be you have, you'd have someone to bounce ideas off of, and you can kind of bounce things back and forth.
Jason Shuman 44:14 A lot of people have asked me, What, don't don't you get frustrated because I have my own voice. As a writer, I have all my life experience that I bring to it. Do you get frustrated and I could see how people could ask that because when you're just up by yourself, you may be get frustrated with yourself but you're not arguing over this jokes, funnier, that jokes funnier. But I think that with Eduardo and I, we just haven't had that issue. It's been a total sort of two one plus one equals 10. We feel like we get 10 times more done. We're not hurting each other's voice. Sure. Do we argue about like I think that's funny and he doesn't think it's funny or vice versa. But we just let it go find keep your joke. Um, early on, I Eduardo, getting getting to know him. He had such a mission with his writing. You know, my mission was just to try to make people laugh. I just grew up Jerry Seinfeld, David Letterman, Mel Brooks, I just I just wanted to make the world laugh. I didn't have specificity specificity that Eduardo did with what he not only wants to make the world laugh. But he wanted to change the stereotype of, I'll say, Latin x people for him, specifically Mexico. But he really had a goal with his laughter. And that changed my world, to be honest, Alex, because I had just sort of grown up thinking like, oh, laughter is the best medicine. But to meet Eduardo, and have him talk about, yeah, I want to make people laugh. But I also want to create characters that defy the stereotypes. And I'd like to do it by sort of, like putting cheese on the broccoli. Like, maybe we can change hearts and minds by creating positive Latinx stereotypes, like having characters that would normally just be a white doctor, or a lawyer or a successful businessman. But why can't we can Mexican Cuban, South American, and somehow the comedy can just come and somehow People will laugh and see the movie, but then they'll walk away, not realizing that like, Oh, it was a Latino character that wasn't just a garden or a made a Narcos, a rhino. And so, when, when he started to talk to me about that, it was to me, I was like, sign me up, Eduardo, sign me up, because I want to go on that mission with you. So to me, helped me understand where the last many decades have gone wrong in in their portrayal of Latino characters, and let's try to let's try to make a positive impact on the way it brought a whole nother depth to what I was just thinking of just gonna be another funny Jewish guy, to being to having more of a purpose to the writing. In an entertaining way, obviously, first and foremost, we're trying to entertain Sure. And so, with that goal in mind, can we also elevate what we're trying to do?
Alex Ferrari 47:45 That's, uh, if you can combine those two things in your professional life in your creative life, that is a very honorable way to to approach it. It really truly is. I mean, for me, I mean, I'm Cuban. And only two main Cuban influences in pop culture are Ricky Ricardo, and Scarface who happens to be Italian. So he, you know, so, and for years, you know, like, Hey, man, how you doing, man? Like it was constantly that throughout me when I was growing up, you know, because Scarface was the 80s By the way, nothing gets missed a poem. I think Scarface is a tastic film. And I think Chino did a fantastically a performance of what it was, it's a it's a bit over the top, I'm just saying just a bit over the top, and it's just a bit but he's a patina. But it's but it's true. And and I think now with what's going on in the world, and there is a lot more awareness of, of bringing these kind of characters, and I think you guys are at the forefront, and I can't wait to actually see half brothers, but from the trailer. It looks hilarious. Like, I'm like, I told my wife about it. Like, we kind of watch this when this comes out. This is gonna be amazing.
Jason Shuman 48:54 Thank you, I love the movie. It was everything Eduardo and I wanted to do when we set out to write it, to produce it, and bring on the team of Luke and Luis. Like, it's, I'm, I'm so proud to have been able to make a movie like this that is very contemporary, very, we think, but also follows the classic structure of movies that I grew up loving, like planes, trains, and automobiles. I mean, I, I worship these movies, and I've watched them hundreds of times. So to get to kind of live in the genre of some of my all time favorites, but try to create a modern movie with also the intention of like what we were saying to to just change the stereotype a little bit change the perception. So it was it was a fulfilling experience from top to bottom.
Alex Ferrari 49:52 You know, you know what's funny is when I was watching the trailer, and I saw that scene with when he's running towards the car with the goat By the way, everyone You can see the trailer at the at the show notes. So it doesn't sound like we're like talking weird, but definitely watch the trailer. But when he's running towards the goat first image that popped in my head, I don't know why it was planes, trains and automobiles. Like I just like it just it just felt very john Healy to me, which was great. And I was like, oh, now that you said that, it makes all the sense in the world because you can see that, that that kind of tang to it, it has a flavor of of those kind of old midnight run. Especially midnight, I just recently watched midnight run again.
Jason Shuman 50:34 Oh, my God grown and consider anything, anything, even if one little moment in a movie that I'm a part of reminds me of john Hughes, like, we're good. I'll take it cuz that's, I don't I could never make planes, trains if I tried. It's such a brilliant movie. But we just tried to bring the funny in the heart and the warmth and the characters that were that could make it an entertaining movie, and still take you on a trip and take you on a journey. And so we can have another conversation after you watch. I'll come back anytime.
Alex Ferrari 51:10 I can't wait. No, I can't wait. I can't wait to see it. And, okay, just let me lose my train of thought. Um, we were talking about john Hughes. All right, I forgot. We'll go on to the next question. So with with half brothers, in you, obviously now, sitting on both sides of the table as a producer and as a screenwriter. What advice do you have for screenwriters on approaching a project approaching a producer? How What does that screenplay? How does that screenplay have to be? How should they approach it? What's the do's and do nots? Should we just show up at your house? and knock on the door with a screenplay? I mean, I heard that's the way it's done in Hollywood. I've seen movies. How do you? How do you look at it?
Jason Shuman 52:00 choosing a producer? It's it? You know, you got to be careful because there are a lot of producers around around town. And like I don't know. And
Alex Ferrari 52:12 can we use the air quotes with the words producers, because I
Jason Shuman 52:17 Hit a producer.
Alex Ferrari 52:18 But also you could just go down to the FedEx store and or UPS store and get a business card made up and say you're a producer? There's no accreditation.
Jason Shuman 52:27 That's the scary part. Yes, sir, is so important. Because as I've learned, if they give up on your script, it's good as dead, like the producer has to keep that boulder being pushed up the mountain, you're a screenwriter, you know, unless you happen to have a career as producing like I had luckily done. So we sold in this case, we sold the pitch to focus there were no producers attached at the time. But I knew what to do as far as how to get keep the studio as as we kept doing drafts. And we got Luis attached to star and we got Luke interested in directing. That was me just instinctually taking over and saying I've got a script that I'm really proud of. And I think there's a movie here, I'm just gonna keep putting it together. So when it came time to the studio saying like, I think we're gonna make this, then they were just like, Well, why don't you just produce it? Why don't you and Eduardo just produce it since you've kind of been acting as producer anyway. So that was just a lucky situation where I turned to Eduardo. And I was like, wow, that's, that was it? We get to make it ourselves. But I do I do. Really. I don't take for granted good producing. Because even in my writing career, I've I've now been able to work with producers, that unlike they have skills that I don't have as a producer, I think they are they've helped me see things that I'd like to do in my producing game. And people that I just respect immensely. And so if you're a screenwriter, and you've got a script, like you can, you can either take your chance on a young ish producer or a new producer, if they have a lot of excitement for your script. But don't, don't, don't, don't sell your soul away. Like if they dropped the ball, you got to be willing to change it up. Because you can just sit dormant with a producer's kind of given up on it. And then it's just the if you go with a big company, like a big grant, Brian Grazer type company, well, they're great and Brian's amazing, but you're probably going to be dealing with their executives which is okay to just make sure that you get along with them. Make sure that you have a rapport with that executive and you feel like this executives got your back has the same vision of you do of trying to get it where it needs to be? There's no right answer, Alex, because every producer is gonna have a different set of skills, they're gonna have different contacts. Like, I only know the people that I know. Right? So if you bring me your script, I know the agents that I've known for 20 years, I know the talent that I know. And I have a way of doing things that might be totally different than somebody else who's like, been doing it the same amount of time I have and their connections are totally different. So the attachments that they might pitch you the agents they might talk to. So it's sort of an instinctual thing. You got to meet with producers, you got to hope there's enthusiasm, you got to look into their eyes, male or female, and you got to say, I trust them. I got a good feeling. You know, bring another Danny strong story when when when he wrote recount, and HBO was like, Danny, like, Who do you want to team up with on this movie? Because Sydney Pollack, who was the original Director Producer of recount passed away, like months before they were going to go shoot. And so Danny was given carte blanche to like team up with so many different and I find named you some of the director and be like, Lord, but he met with Jay Roach, and Jay Roach at the time. This is before Jay Roach has gone on now to do a bevy of dramatic work. That's amazing. But at the time, he had had the Meet the Parents movies, and the Austin Powers movies. But Danny met with them. And I'm gonna steal his story. He felt much better. But he just said, I met with him. And I was like, this guy's a winner. This guy, it's like, could I go with some of these other people who have more dramatic stuff on their resume that I admire too? Sure. But I sat there with Jay. And there was just something about this meeting, where I was like, Yes, I want to, I want to go down a road with this guy. I want I just this guy's a winner. And everything he touches turns to gold and I'm in and that was just Danny's instincts. That was just Danny's instinct saying like, I you could talk me out of it. But But am I gonna let you because? And I feel like that's what as a writer, you gotta send your stuff out there. You got to be fearless in that and then the meetings you take. If somebody seems shady. If somebody seems a little suspect, don't do it. Don't do it.
Alex Ferrari 57:37 But that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen in Hollywood, Jase. I mean, everyone who is so nice and upfront, and they didn't do anything shady here. Right. That's sarcasm, if anyone did not pick up on the sarcasm, that sarcasm, I'm just both Jason and I have gray hair for a reason.
Jason Shuman 57:58 I was always taught, like, a good deal with a bad person is a bad deal. Yes. And a bad deal with a good person is a great deal. And I don't forget that like if I meet with somebody, and they're offering me less money, but, but I just feel like such a good person. And I asked around about them and people speak lovingly. And then there's this other person who just don't know but but they're offering me more money 10 times out of 10 I'll go with the less deal but with the good person because it will in the long run it will pay off to me.
Alex Ferrari 58:39 That's a great, great advice. And I've just remember what I lost my train of thought the one thing I was gonna say it's so great that Focus Features you know, is producing films like a half brother because in the studio system that's that was very commonplace, but nowadays, yeah, you don't you don't get films of this because that halfway there is not a tentpole. You know, it's not $200 million movie so generally the studio's that's what that's what they're doing. And now specifically with the way the world is like no, but like what Warner Brothers just released the other day was just like, holy cow. This is this is changing the game. I mean, who knows what's gonna happen in the next year? So it's so cool that they actually are putting so many resources in a really, it truly is. It truly is.
Jason Shuman 59:26 That was a testament to Eduardo his work with Oh, honey. Oh, derbez. Um, you know that that Eduardo had worked with him not only on instructions, but Latin how to be a Latin lover had helped him out with overboard. And so those movies, Oh, honey, it was a brand. So those movies performed really well. And focus was willing to take a shot to kind of create their own division or at least their attempt to kind of get into that market. If we're just talking about from a business standpoint. They saw that there is a niche being created by Eduardo and no henio and Ben Odell and their company. And it was just sort of like, and look, we're in a pandemic, so the movies come out. And it's doing fine for pandemic wise we're doing great. But you know, in a real world, the box office would have been more on par with like Latin lover and overboard and instructions, but the world's changed. And so most people will safely watch it on their on their things. But if they happen to be in and around a theater, or drive in, I went to the drive in this weekend to watch it was so fun. And but if you're in Phoenix, or Texas, or Florida, or somewhere where there's a theater and you feel safe, you can experience it how Eduardo and I intended it to be experienced, but eventually it will come out and hopefully still do the same kind of numbers that that those other movies did. Over the lot.
Alex Ferrari 1:01:00 Yeah, and I want to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests sir. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?
Jason Shuman 1:01:10 One, my first and foremost is network.
Alex Ferrari 1:01:14 So good. It's been Yeah, that's, that's been on that list a lot.
Jason Shuman 1:01:18 A lot. I refer to it quite a bit. And it's just brilliant to me in every way, shape and form. I could never use the word so easily that he uses. so brilliant. I really do love a Paddy Chayefsky as a writer but also the movie network. The other ones I sort of flip around from a genre perspective. I love Cameron Crowe's Jerry Maguire script. Because I think that drama D is a difficult, difficult genre, trying that the critics often crush you. And it's like, when you get it, right, though, when you do Terms of Endearment when you do a movie that has comedy, but also has a ton of drama in it. And it's about someone like Jerry Maguire, like just taking a small step forward in life. And so I love reading that script all the time, because I think how he pulled that off, we created a big movie about a sports agent is quite brilliant. And then, God, the third one that I would say, because I read so many scripts that I often refer to, I, I would this is gonna come out of nowhere, but Oliver Stone, his script for wall street is very influential to me. Because he created a world created a world that I'm very fond of. He created a pace and a character. And that character's goal is to make money and to be like this. This like Gordon Gekko guy who's supposed to be the bad guy, but turned into this iconic, like, good guy. And so when I read Wall Street when I read Wolf of Wall Street, also another great script, similar vein, they create these worlds that are so fun to live in. They're so intoxicating. Yeah, though, they're sort of nefarious worlds. And so I often refer to the wall street screenplay as well. So I know that's kind of all over the place. But I use those those three scripts have inspired me a lot.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:55 Well, you and I are of similar vintages. So Wall Street, in my video store days, I must have seen Wall Street It was a religious experience to watch Wall Street for me. I can read I can recite the greed speech right now off the top of my head. I'm not joking you I could go off the top of my head and read that because I just, it was such a you and I never really understood it. But you actually said something really, very pointedly there that it's intoxicating. That that world at that time was I wanted to be Gordon Gekko so bad when I was a freshman in high school. Like I was just like, um, like, I started reading Wall Street books. I started reading, you know, investing books. I started like, you know, oh, yeah. I mean, I had the poster, the greed poster. There's they said they sold greed posters, with the whole speech. And I had it framed in my room. Oh my god.
Jason Shuman 1:04:50 Wait, it's not just the greed speeds. It's like when he's in the limo and he says, You're either inside or you're outside. And I'm not talking about some schmo making 300,000 living comfortably I'm talking about liquid rich enough to own your own jet, you know as a 15 year old the movie's supposed to be a tragic of a guy who's sold his soul to the devil. Yes pays the price. But But our generation saw it as as like a beacon of light of like how to live our lives.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:28 The funny thing is that the devil is the thing that you love the most about the film and that's what the devil is good at. Yeah, he's good at it at a toxicated bringing you in. And and I actually like the second one, Wall Street. Money doesn't sleep.
Jason Shuman 1:05:42 I don't want to talk about that you don't like my good friend Allan Loeb wrote it and I love him. He's one of the best screenwriters. But it was hard for me to watch because I the first one is so perfect. why he's such a perfect movie, that it was just I don't think there was any version of the sequel that would have made made you happy. It's just like, if somebody made Apocalypse Now, too. I probably go like I can't.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:06 I can't do it. I can't I don't care if it
Jason Shuman 1:06:09 Perfection. How do you top that? Just let it be.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:12 I don't care if Coppola goes back in time and writes it in the in the jungle while he's shooting? The first one. I'm not watching it. I'm not watching
Jason Shuman 1:06:21 Can't do it.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:22 Now. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?
Jason Shuman 1:06:27 Very simply, I have a couple mantras I live by them. It's like, first off, you got to be all in. Yeah, like playing poker, you got to look at your hand, whoever you are, if you're whatever culture you come from, whatever males like female, binary, whatever you see yourself as whatever you look in the mirror and identify as you've got to look at the hand you've been given. And you got to say, I've got a lot to say, and I'm in it to win it. And you got to put your chips in and say I'm all in. I'm all in. And I'm gonna keep going until I die until I have a heart attack. And because it is so tough, it is so competitive. And you gotta just say, I'm just like, whenever my time is, and I do feel like everyone gets their shot. That you got to just keep writing every day. No excuse. Just tell your stories. I don't care if it's, as Danny would tell me. I don't care if it's making a list of things you love and hate. I don't care if it's just going off book and just in your journal writing extemporaneous scene, you've got to write every darn day, you have to even Sundays, like you got to adjust. Jerry Seinfeld says he has a calendar. And he makes sure he writes at least one joke every day. And then he puts an X in his calendar so that he looks back on the year. And it's like, okay, I wrote 360 a minimum I wrote 365 jokes. So you should be able to look back and say I wrote every single day. And I promise you, if you do that one year, then two years, then three years, stuff will happen. It just Will you unless you're just too scared to show it to anyone then I don't know what to tell you. But like, if you just do it, just just put your chips all in the middle and say whatever this hand is, I've been given in life. I'm all in on it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna keep evolving obviously as a human being and as a writer, but I'm I'm in it to win it as a filmmaker and a storyteller. That would be my
Alex Ferrari 1:08:41 that's awesome advice. Yeah. And again, just perseverance man, perseverance. Just that's it's it's a lot of times I found in this business. It's not about the who's the best or the most talented. It's the one who just keeps grinding it out and keeps going keeps showing up.
Jason Shuman 1:08:55 I don't love Jay Leno. I wasn't the big Jay Leno fan. But man, that guy had a work ethic. He would write he jokes on Saturdays on Sunday is in the morning at night. He was like, I'm not the best looking guy. I'm not the funniest guy, but I'm gonna work harder than everyone else. I'm gonna just if I'm, like, I don't have that natural charisma, like Letterman does, or everyone just loves Letterman. But you know, and my I have a lot of respect for people like that. And so that these are just the people like the Judd Apatow story I said, where he'll wrote 15 jokes. There's a theme to what we've been talking about. And that's just how I see it. I'm just like, I'll put in the work. I'll deal with the rejection. And it's no fun Look, I don't like it. I have plenty of friends who have dealt with lots of hours of phone call me being like, uh, uh, but then I get up the next morning and just keep going. Just keep keep it going.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:55 Keep keep keep the keep the hustle. Keep the hustle. Last question, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
Jason Shuman 1:10:06 So easy to answer that enjoy the process? Mm hmm. So results oriented, that you can't, you just cannot be, it can't just be the selling of the script, or just getting the movie made or the TV show made. You gotta try to enjoy the process of writing that you're like, every day, you get to sit there and tell your stories, you know, and some days are good, some days bad, but try your best anything in life. Try to enjoy that you today, the goal is to write three pages. And if you did that successfully, go have yourself a beer or a nice meal or pat yourself on the back. Because that, you know, enjoy the little victories enjoy the process, and then the outcome will be what it's going to be. I don't I have no control a lot over that. And yes, I used to. I used to start having grandiose things of like, oh, maybe I could sell this for a million dollars and get it made with Brad Pitt. And great, great when it happens. I've been lucky enough to have it happen a couple times like that as a producer. But in general things happen in ways you never saw come in. So just try to the process. And and then half brothers is out right now as we as we speak in theaters, and then as a coming up. Do you know when it's coming out? Oh, no. We'll be out on VOD, Amazon, all that stuff, but it will at some point.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:39 And I will I will put all that in the show notes. Jason and I appreciate you coming back on the show man on this show. First time, it was an absolute pleasure talking. I know we can keep talking for at least a couple hours. Just and I'm the first one to sign up for that Danny strong seminar you're going to be creating soon, so I appreciate that
Jason Shuman 1:11:58 Thank you Alex anytime.
Alex Ferrari 1:12:01 I want to thank Jason for coming on the show and sharing his journey with us if you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch his new film half brothers. Head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/098. And guys, if you have not checked out, indie film, hustle, TV, and all of the amazing screenwriting courses and filmmaking, lessons, workshops, movies, documentaries, things like that, head over to indiefilmhustle.tv and check it out. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.
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Today on the show we have screenwriter, Eduardo Cisneros. He began his screenwriting career in his home country of Mexico. Working on countless television series including Saturday Night Live: Mexico. His career took an upward trajectory when he began working with one of the biggest comedy actor/writer/producer and director in the Latinx world, Eugenio Derbez.
Eduardo Cisneros’s latest project hits close to home. Half Brothers, who he co-wrote and produced with Jason Shuman, is based on his experiences as an immigrant from Mexico in America. His father was the basis of the main character’s father in the story.
Renato, a successful Mexican aviation executive, is shocked to discover he has an American half-brother he never knew about, the free-spirited Asher. The two very different half-brothers are forced on a road journey together masterminded by their ailing father, tracing the path their father took as an immigrant from Mexico to the US.
“Half brothers is about bonding. It’s about empathy. It’s about the challenge of developing the ability to put yourself into somebody else’s shoes and realizing that you have more in common than things that separate you.” – Eduardo Cisneros
It was an absolute pleasure speaking to Eduardo and discuss how he approaches each story, what it was like work on SNL Mexico, how it’s like writing with a partner, and how he hopes his films change the conversation on how Latinx people are perceived in our culture. He wants to bring his Spanish-speaking audience a greater representation in Hollywood.
Alex Ferrari 0:49 I'd like to welcome the show Eduardo Cisneros. How you doing my friend?
Eduardo Cisneros 3:33 I'm pretty pretty good. How are you doing?
Alex Ferrari 3:35 I'm as good as I can be in this upside down world that we live in today.
Eduardo Cisneros 3:40 Yeah, isn't it wonderful?
Alex Ferrari 3:42 It is it's something it's something it's something like I like I said the mole people haven't risen up and Atlantis hasn't hasn't risen either to take over the world. Yes yet. But that's the only thing missing from 2020 honestly. Alien aliens Meteor. Yeah, what else is there?
Eduardo Cisneros 4:02 Well, they found this big sculpture of like a Buddha and then has had like a dead person inside Did you see that? And I might not leave that leave that alone. This is not the year like please put it back in the ground like bury that stuff like I don't think we can handle any more of that stuff.
Alex Ferrari 4:20 Don't open that today
Eduardo Cisneros 4:22 Just. Like dont
Alex Ferrari 4:25 Just let Indiana Jones just close the door and walk away slowly, slowly.
Eduardo Cisneros 4:31 Brendan Fraser closing
Alex Ferrari 4:36 A Brendan raise your friend Brendan Fraser reference. I appreciate that. Old School mummy.
Eduardo Cisneros 4:44 All sorts of stuff under my sleeves man.
Alex Ferrari 4:48 Well, listen, man. Thanks so much for being on the show. Man. I'm so excited to have a screenwriter but also a Latino screenwriter because we don't get many of those on the show. And as as a lot You know, filmmaker. When I found out about you, I was like, Yes, yes, I'd love to have him on the show. And let's, let's talk screenwriting from, from your perspective, sir. So before we get started, how did you get into this ridiculous business?
Eduardo Cisneros 5:16 Good question. You know, I was born and raised in Mexico. And in Mexico, and I would say in the Spanish language, world, radio is a big thing. So I always wanted to be a filmmaker, but we have less avenues, you know, to get to that goal. So my first opportunity was as a radio DJ. And specifically, because a lot of the radio there is very driven towards like comedy and humor would not so I would write sketches for radio, but that's basically what you would call it. So when I moved to Mexico City, which is the bigger hub of entertainment in Latin America, and the springboard in, I first started going around the radio, radio stations, who produce a lot of content, but it was all comedy. So I started writing the, you know, I took my tapes and my scripts and, and people liked what I did. And they hire me. And I happen to cross paths with one of many other business staff writers, and no henio was already at the top of his career. And he hasn't climbed down since he was it was, I would say, the first peak on the series of peaks. So I was fortunate enough that because of the funny stuff that I've written for radio, then I was then brought on to write TV. I'm summarizing it. It was a little bit of a trek, from very, very baby junior level writer to a full time staff writer for tenure. But that's, that's that's how it happened. And
Alex Ferrari 6:53 yeah, generally, it's not the overnight like, yeah, just one day, I got this. And the next day, I'm a staff writer, I just kind of worked out. Yeah. Now what is it like being a staff writer for at Haneul? And in also in just a staff writer, because your staff writer basically for anything he does or was a specific show? How
Eduardo Cisneros 7:10 does that work? Now, when you're, it's a weird system. And I rarely, I mean, I don't think that I will experience anything in my life like that as a writer. And I also think it's a very different experience for any writers. I don't know how many people in the world would have a situation like this, but because he is, but even more so at the time, he was a big commodity for fertility. So which is the biggest network and the only game in town for decades. And he was their biggest star. So they let him hire two or three writers. Full time it was job was only to write for anything that he did. So he was always surrounded by a team of two or three writers, which meant if he had a TV show that you would write for a TV show, if he was dubbing a movie, then you would add some jokes. If he was going to do some kind of public experience appearance even as a speech, then you would have to help him write the speech like you were, you'd be at his best 24 seven for a full year round. Didn't matter if he was shooting a show or not so but the reason why I think it's also unique it was because he, he basically was an artist who shaped pop culture in Mexico. So it was a very bizarre experience with you a write a sketch, and sometimes it was like a one off thing where his show was on hiatus, but he wanted to make fun of something that happened. So we would write a sketch, shoot it and put it in some morning show or something. And it would be water cooler conversation. This was pre Twitter kids. This was pre social media days. So you would go out on the street, you would go to the supermarket, you would go to the gym, and everybody was talking about this thing. It was like Game of Thrones,
Alex Ferrari 9:11 or something or Seinfeld back in the day.
Eduardo Cisneros 9:14 I always tell people that it was it was the most important thing was Seinfeld because ohanian was not only very commercially successful, but he was also admired because his brand of humor was very different and very observational and smart compared to other comedians in Mexico. So that was very bizarre. And we had another taste of it when instructions that included came out and we get to that in a minute but I was in Mexico City working on another project of henio when construction and include come out of Mexico, and I decided to live a more New York style way of life. I ditch my car and I would take public transit to the office every day and from my like from my door like my house. public transit during the gym to go to the office, everybody was talking about me. So it is it's a very weird and also very gratifying as a writer that you create something. And you put something on a sketch show where he shows up at an award ceremony and he does a funny thing. And everybody's talking about it the next day. It's also a big responsibility, but it was it was a great experience.
Alex Ferrari 10:23 So for people who don't know, Daniel is he's, he's an annual. He. He's like, like you said, a cultural icon in Mexico. And then he has crossed over he's done movies, like construction is not included like overboard. Who was with what's her name?
Eduardo Cisneros 10:41 I know Ferris.
Alex Ferrari 10:42 Thank you Anna Faris Yes. Which is, which was a remake of an old Kurt Russell Goldie Hawn film back in the 80s. And he's actually done a he's been in a bunch of American movies. So he has definitely crossed over. So the equivalent so for everyone listen to it's the equivalent of you getting a staff position with Seinfeld in the height of his powers in the 90s. Basically, where he is anything you wrote, people saw, and you were talking about, and you were just there in that, that hurricane in the center of the storm.
Eduardo Cisneros 11:15 And it was it was a weird experience. Because the truth is, I was I was barely out of college. I was very young as in my early 20s. I did go I mean, I did get the what I call a media degree in Mexico for my bachelor's degree. So I, I studied everything. I then I took a specific production workshop for like NYU, I went to New York Film Academy in New York, I shot I shot a bunch of short films. So I was always geared toward filmmaking and writing, but, but to have a job like that within a year or two, graduating college is insane. And it's why only so much that I thought, Oh, this is what life is gonna be like, this is the life of a writer. It's gonna be amazing. This is the first two or three years of my career. Wait until you see. But it didn't work out though. It didn't pan out.
Alex Ferrari 12:12 Yeah, generally, when when when I had a small amount of success when I came into the business, and I was making crazy money as an editor. And I'm like, Oh, this is just the way it is. Right? You just you just roll hard like this until one day, the gravy train stops.
Eduardo Cisneros 12:30 Yeah, and you have no control. You're, you're waiting there for the phone to ring and it's not ringing. And you're like, Oh, I guess I'll find a way to pay the bills. So it's Yeah, it's a very eye opening.
Alex Ferrari 12:45 humbling. humbling. It's a humble,
Eduardo Cisneros 12:46 It's very humbling, very humbling
Alex Ferrari 12:49 This business. This is what this business will definitely bring you to your knees. Every and I don't care who you are everybody that it happens to every mega star in the world, every success story, they all get humbled to their knees at one point or another in their career. Right? You know, it's not only the
Eduardo Cisneros 13:06 line, never too big. You're never too big to fall in your house. You're never too big to to eat humble pie. So, and by the way, the first person who told me that was when you know, can you tell me he wanted to warn me. He was saying he would always say there's always gonna be someone around the corner. Who's funnier than you? Who is more charismatic than you? So don't coast don't, you know, don't don't take these things for granted. Like, always make sure that you're always putting out the best version of the work in and I might Yeah, yeah. You know, he's like, You're like a kid. And you're like, yes, that you know, like, but he it worked for him. So like, Oh, I guess it should start paying attention. to it. This successful man is saying
Alex Ferrari 13:55 to be yes. Oh, yeah. I know.
Eduardo Cisneros 14:00 I learned my lesson.
Alex Ferrari 14:02 So uh, so you you were you were Tell me how you were involved with instructions not included, which was, I think, his first big hit here in the States. And I you know, was released by I think Lionsgate at the time. So it was a it was a big release. It's a big release for the film. So how did you get involved with it?
Eduardo Cisneros 14:21 Well, I was it was we started writing the movie at that point precisely in the early aughts, where we were writing this show and we were writing about I was writing a bunch of stuff for you. But it within that team of two or three writers, I just happened to be the person who had studied more of me when regards to screenwriter who is more interested in film, so when he said, You know, he called us to his office and he said, You know, I'm the most successful comedian on TV, but at the time, there was no real commercial business in Mexico was all art house a mortise barrows eat mama tambien. We've made they made like four or five movies a year. And he said, like, all those directors Don't take me seriously. So I'm going to have to come up with my own script of the movie. And he talked about his idea. And I was one of the one of the only people who was like, Yeah, I really would like to do that. Anyway, it was it was, at the time, it was kind of like a vanity project, he might as well have said, I want to record an album. Like, it was one of those things where you're like, Alright, sounds like, I'm sure. And then we talked about so him and I got a little more time to talk about the movies we liked. And at the time, we're very, we're very inspired by all this. movies that came from Italy, right? Oh, in cinema part of it. So Life is beautiful. And pristine, like all these movies that were very unabashedly emotional and cheesy and corny, but they were also had like a, they have paces and depth. And they also have a streak of comedy. And that kind of jive very well with the Latino sensibility. Um, so he wanted to do that he wanted to show that he could do, he uses comedic chops, but also make people cry. So we started watching those movies. And then we he partnered up with console as compared to produce comedy sparrows. And he brought on like a more seasoned screenwriter to kind of, so we can break the story together. And then eventually, after a couple of drafts where there was a bit of a story, then ohanian, I and another of his writers cope with MP, we worked on the script for another four years after that, again, because of him, he is a perfectionist, and he will do draft after draft and we would get every scene to his liking. And even then, after five, six years, if you could believe this, still, we can find people to Who would think that Daniel was a movie star. And I laughed because there's really nobody bigger than him at the moment in the Spanish language world. But at the time, it was more like now who wants to put money in the hands of the movie. But the thing is, like, I would spend so much time with him, that I would see firsthand how people responded to him and how the effects I was like, I think that I think there's a little bit of snobbery going on back then. So, but long story short, we got to make the movie and it came out and was a great experience. At the time, I had already moved to LA, I had learned my lesson I had, I just think that I decided to cross over before the movie came out. So by the time it came out, I already had an agent and also was in a position to kind of like capitalize the success of the movie. But, you know, I'm thankful that it came out when it did and it did the way it did.
Alex Ferrari 18:14 Yeah, it was it was a huge success, especially in the in the Spanish speaking world here in the States, but it also found a bigger audience. It's not just that Latinos who went out to see it. I mean, a lot of other cultures have seen it because it's just such a beautiful film. It really really is a beautiful film. And I my wife, and I just loved it when we saw it. Now you you also worked with SNL, but Mexico's SNL, right? I I've never spoken to anyone who's worked with any an SNL outside of here in the state. So what's it like? Like, is it just another sketch comedy show? But with a obviously with a Mexican twist to it? How is that how's the whole thing work?
Eduardo Cisneros 18:55 Well, so at the time, I was telling you that I was in Mexico City at the time, the reason why I was there, because I was already in LA, but Ohio called me and said, we're doing this now. And I was alright, I'll be there. So I, you know, he relocated me to Mexico City to work on this project, and he got the rights you have the rights to do the SNL franchise which I didn't know existed by the way. I didn't know that SNL had turned into this thing where they had an SNL and in Korea, Brazil, and one in Spain, which Funny enough, it's on Thursday night. I hate each one. That's amazing. Yeah. But it's so they because they've done this a few times. Now Broadway video has the whole way. This whole system to kind of train you to do this and they explain the process to you. And then you sit down and watch this video, of like behind the scenes of step by step how to put the show together. And then when we turned around and tried to put it together, they sent horatia stance to work with us along the way. They also sent somebody from Second City to make sure that we were kind of building upon all these tenets of improv comedy. They're the core of SNL. And it also happened that. So when I moved to the US, and I try to cross over, I was hoping for things to go as, as quickly and as well as they did when I moved to Mexico City. That was not the case. And so I, I said, You know what, I have to prepare as much as possible. And I went to NYU and took a bunch of screenwriting classes. I took every class that I could, there was a thing called media Bistro. I don't know if it still exists, but I would like went through, like, simulations of writers room that they did with like real writers from like the Simpsons and whatnot. But one of the most important things that that I did was take improv. And I went, I joined UCB. I completed the program. I joined a couple teams. So I was one of those annoying people that would go Hey, you're gonna come watch my improv show. I was I was at La guy.
Alex Ferrari 21:21 At least it wasn't a one man show. I mean, this is an improv show. Because there's, there's the improv show. And then there's like, Hey, can you come see my show? Are you right? And I have, and I have been to an LA one man show or one woman show. And it is. It's, it's, it's kind of like a rite of passage of Rites here in
Eduardo Cisneros 21:42 LA. Yeah, I think I would still, I think if I have to choose, I would rather do the band because at least you're like words. It's music. They can it can always play up Converse. But yeah, there was one man show. It's like the one man on stage and other just another one men in the audience. And that just show for one man.
Alex Ferrari 22:05 Exactly.
Eduardo Cisneros 22:07 Not no woman show. So so because I had that training, I was also able to transmit some of that too, because there was very little improv comedy. In Latin America. And in Mexico, it's growing more. But at the time, this was a few years ago, there were very few improv companies there. So I had improv training. And I used that so that was a great experience. And, and a lot of it was being truthful to to the brand, which is being topical, which is being political. You know, knowing how to cap, you know, capitalize on whatever is happening at the moment. So it was a great experience.
Alex Ferrari 22:53 Yes, it sounds awesome. Now, you've been you've written a lot of different, you know, comic comedy and characters, what is it, especially in the future world? Or even in scripted television? What is how do you create a memorable leading character for comedy?
Eduardo Cisneros 23:14 I think one of the things that was that heard that was more helpful, was, more often than not a script problem is a character problem, right? And I realized that was a very helpful thing to learn in general, but specifically for comedy, because when you have a character in comedy that has a strong point of view, and that you know, what they think about the world, and you know, what they do in the moment of crisis, then it's, it becomes easier, all of a sudden, to, to, to write and then I used to, you know, because when, when I was in Mexico, after I've been part of my, what I call it, the, was kind of like my Karate Kid training, which I was kind of training without really knowing that I was training but I was working as a consultant for Sony television in America. And part of my job was to do something like you see the ad Everybody Loves Raymond documentary with Phil Ruffin. Oh, yeah. Russia.
Alex Ferrari 24:25 Yeah. So great. So great.
Eduardo Cisneros 24:26 So I was working exactly with that with that company, doing exactly that. But for Latin America, it would take the nanny or what um, you know, what have you right? So a lot of I went through a lot of character Bible series Bibles, and I was exposed in a short amount of time, to a lot of, of the engines of very different shows. And in the process, I had to train writers and some of the exercises that I would give them, one of them was you Ask a question. And then write the answer according to each one of the characters from the Simpsons, right? So the characters on The Simpsons are so well defined that you know what the answer is gonna be, like, you know, what Homer is gonna be, you know, when this is gonna say, you know, what Bart is gonna say. So that's a great example of what do you want to do in comedy, you want to make sure that every one of your characters has such a specific point of view, that the audience knows what that point of view is. But also, they will be surprised, and kind of looking forward to see how they're going to express their point. So it's more about what how, Karen on willing Grace is expressing what they have to say how its array, like how each person on TV, you know, what they think you you're just waiting to see how they're going to express that point of view that you know. So as a writer, I think creating a TV show, or creating a feature comedy, where the character has strong point of view is essential. You really need to know that before you start doing any more writing. And I would say in TV is even more important because characters are even more important than story on TV, like people will forgive a bad story. But if it's a character they love, they will watch them do anything. They will watch them make coffee, if it's an interesting character. So from a community point of view, I think that's that's, that's very helpful.
Alex Ferrari 26:40 Did you ever watch Breaking Bad?
Eduardo Cisneros 26:43 I watched the pilot.
Alex Ferrari 26:44 You watch the pilot, okay.
Eduardo Cisneros 26:46 Yes, sorry.
Alex Ferrari 26:49 There is no reason why we can't we have to end the interview Now, obviously, no. Um, so there was an episode in that series, a very famous episode where they basically sat around and followed a fly the entire episode. And they like talked a bunch and they just and it was, it was honestly the worst. It's like a legendarily worst episode of the entire series other than bad and maybe a couple of other episodes. The it's almost a flawless series. But the reason why you stick with something like that is because you love the characters. Because if that was a new show, you're like, Oh, hell, no, I'm out of here. But you die. You know? Yeah. But I never thought of it that way that with comedy specifically, you know, you go through all of television, especially comedy and television, not as much in because it features the character can change. They have a point of view, like Axel Foley has a point of view. But he changes, you know, he
Eduardo Cisneros 27:43 you want them to change. It's a transformation machine. Right? Right. So movie, that's the distinction by television
Alex Ferrari 27:50 character. But Seinfeld is Seinfeld and Kramer is Kramer and, you know, Monica from friends is and they're they don't change, they might change a little bit. But overall, that point of view of who that character is never leave. So if you are writing for television, especially comedy, you definitely have to hold on to that point of view. Yeah, when is it? Not with comedy to? You know, I don't know if it's as much I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. The villain or the antagonist. You know, a lot of times comedy, the antagonist is not a Darth Vader style figure. It could be the situation, it could be, you know, odds or things like that. But, um, like, airplane, you know, which, all I have to say is the word airplane, and everyone just laughs because if you see that it's just such a brilliant film. But there is no villain there is the planes gonna crash that is the antagonists the plane almost as becomes the antagonist. So when you're writing comedy, either for television or for, or features, what's the key to a good antagonist, whether that be a situation or actual character?
Eduardo Cisneros 29:00 Well, there's two things, I think the key to any antagonist in any particular format is you just have to be able to see the story from their point of view, because everybody's the hero of their own story, right? So you have to understand why this person nobody does thinks to be evil, right? unless you really write a nutshell or writing that cartoon. If tonally, that's what it is. All right. But for the most part for a TV show, you would probably want something that is more grounded, unlike what is what is the why is this character doing what they do? What what why do they see themselves as the hero of the story? But even going further than that, I think that in comedy, The, the main antagonist is always that the main character, they usually in comedy, The reason why we laugh Because we see that this person is undermined by their own character flaws, right? So if you think about the comedic version of to your point like the the, you know, the airplane is not the airplanes fault that all these people are idiots, right? So it's the same thing that, that if you're in a car with four comedic characters with strong point of view and they get a flat tire, you know that because they're incompetent or because they have such character flaws, that this thing is just going to snowball into anybody walking three hours. Like if they didn't, if they didn't have these character flaws that were undermining them at every step. They would, it would be jack Bauer, right? It'd be like 24 B, people who are like fiction. I think usually comedy is a way for us to highlight how in life, we are the first person to step on toes, right? So yeah, so that I mean, it's the Road Runner story, like he's case, in the end is like, yes, the Road Runners can be smart, but this guy's like, so stubborn and in such an idiot. And just we laugh at that.
Alex Ferrari 31:17 Right, exactly. And I always thought I always thought the road winner was the villain personally, and that fill in those shorts, because I feel for Wiley so badly. Actually, the other day on Facebook actually saw a meme where there was a coyote who actually had a road runner and there's mouthy, like, Oh, my God, he finally did it, it was just finally did it. But that's really it. That's interesting, because I never really kind of thought about the point of view. I mean, the flaws, you know, if you look at a movie, like hangover, which is a classic now, you know, each of them have a very distinct point of view, each of them have a belief system. And what's exactly Zach Galifianakis his belief system is just brilliant. But the combination of those those points of views is when you get thrown into and those point of views, they kind of change a bit, but they, they, they stay, they are who they are, at the end, they may definitely have changed a bit. But those point of views have stayed pretty solid. But that point, but those point of views is like you said that the flat, the flat tire, like, okay, that's where the comedy comes in. I'm trying, I'm trying to dissect the comedy a bit more, and I just want to kind of dig into your brain a little bit. But you're, you're you're bringing it up in my head now that it? It is, it's just coming clear to me, I hope the audience is getting clear as well. Are they picking up a couple of nuggets along the way about what makes what's funny, because, you know, a dude stepping on a banana peel and falling? Well, that's funny. But when you but when you actually get that point of view of who that guy is, and a backstory, then it becomes even funnier. And then that's, you know,
Eduardo Cisneros 33:02 when it comes to movies, we think about the best comedies out there, what I consider classics, and if you are of those people who believe, like I am that, you know, after the midpoint in the second act, and I'm glad I can take talking to specific terms for all the nerds out there. But like after your midpoint is specific, the second act, you want to, obviously raise your stakes, right? And if you are writing a superhero movie, that's what they call the bad guys close and like this is more like an external villain coming in. And, you know, coming closer to where you are in a comedy, it's more about like, how can I put this schmuck in or how can you bring this all the all the look character flaws in this character that they're gonna just, you have to face them with those shortcomings to the point that you're going to push them to that turn. So one of the best examples out there is Groundhog Day, right? Which I think is one of the best screenplays when it comes to comedy. And he is really leaning into almost like the worst of him in, in the second act is really coming out and it just gets to a point that but what happens like pushes him so hard that he can't over. It's not until he is able to see those shortcomings that he's a jerk and selfish and uses everybody to his to his own agenda. And that is able to change as a character but before that he's blind and he's going he's repeating the same behavior literally the definition of insanity, right like repeating the same behavior and and you know, he wants to kill himself he can. So that's that to me, like look at every comedy with a with has a strong comedic point of view and you will find that that's the part where you're really challenging your main character because that that With the comedy, the first half, we're going to have all the laughs But then the second half is going to turn a little more challenging because this person is going to make everything very difficult for themselves. Yeah, what I love and then that's, that's only when they will change. Right? Yeah, I
Alex Ferrari 35:16 mean, what I love about Groundhog's Day it is it is, by the way, top five comedy scripts ever written. I mean, it's and performing at that movie is an absolute masterpiece. But put yourself in that scenario, which I know everybody in the world who ever watches that movie puts themselves in that scenario, like what would I do if I had to do everything again today? And a lot of us would probably just do that, like we would go down those kind of those places, especially, I mean, especially the younger you are, absolutely. But you just got to he gets to a point where he's like, I've, I've eaten everything I can eat. I've enjoyed every spoil I can enjoy. I've I've slept with every woman that's in this town that I want to sleep with. I've stolen all the money, I've had all the experiences. And it's not fulfilling me until he finally gets to a wall where he hacks to actually just gives up and it goes, I got it. I gotta change. I got to do something else. Because this thing is not letting me get off the hook. I can't kill myself. I can't go anywhere. That's the brilliance of that script. And that story, that character until at the end, he does finally he's like maybe I should do something to better myself. So I learned how to play piano I you know, I learned how to I sculpt that starts in this dish helping people on the way it is such a wonderful, wonderful, I'm sorry, I'm geeking out about Groundhog's Day with you. I'm sorry.
Eduardo Cisneros 36:31 About Groundhog Day, groundhog day all day. But as I think I don't know if it applies to every genre, because I've had the opportunity now to do but I think when it comes to just straight comedy pure comedy. You I like the idea in Mexico, we have the same no Kaito Kaito Kaito salir de la tonetta means like, I don't want any more cheese, I just want to get out of this mouse trap. Right? So to me, that's the moment where the characters like I don't want to chase anymore. Just get me out of the mousetrap. And I think Groundhog's Day is an example. And when you watch everybody goes in watch to watch half brothers, you will see you know you in even the trailer, you get an idea this, this character that we set out of the place is very judgmental. He thinks he's like a higher level than everybody else. And we found a very external manifestation of that he's an aviation engineer, right? He's literally flying above everybody else. So when you without spoiling much, but I think in that after the midpoint, you'll find him really trapped in this place where he just, he doesn't want anything else. But to get out of the mousetrap. And his biggest enemy is not even going to be this half brother is just going to be its own shortcomings as a character. Right. So I'm hoping that you get to watch it soon. And then we'll then I'm really happy to geek out and yeah, the mechanics of the script.
Alex Ferrari 38:02 So so so that's a wonderful segue, sir into your new film. It was very subtle. No, no accident. But no half brothers is your new film. Which can you tell everybody a little bit about what the movie is about? I saw the trailer of it. It looks it looks fantastic. I am dying to see it. I really am. It's definitely a Friday night, Saturday night, you know, movie night with your with your spouse kind of film, at least for us. But it's funny, it looks great. So tell a little bit of everybody about what it is.
Eduardo Cisneros 38:33 Half brothers, I'm very proud of this movie. I'm very happy with the work that everybody did in the movie. Obviously, not only myself, but like I think we got a really, as a team. And this movie is was a chapter right? Because Robbie and I feel like the road movie is often seen as low hanging fruit, right? Like, oh, it's good to be on a car, get them from A to B. How hard can that be? Right? And it's it's precisely the simplicity of it. That makes it super challenging. So I approached this the way I start approaching everything. Since ohanaeze words were resonating in my head I just prepared along with my writing partner we just prepared even before we wrote the first scene to be as familiar with this genre as possible. And we watched every version as from the most biggest commercial comedy to the smallest, more esoteric, indie porn like we watch everything to see what worked, what didn't work. So that went behind the brand. I think it was worth it. The other circumstance that was very special about this movie was that in a world where, you know, we know that the studio's are more more inclined to buying IP and superhero movies and this and that this was an original pitch, we presented it to Focus Features who and who don't get into producing that movie that easily, right. They're very, very picky about what they produce in house. It's normally either co co production or just an acquisition. So we were very lucky that they believed believed in the pitch. They bought the pitch and they developed it with with us. And that was also extremely helpful. Because these are people who have excellent taste in, in movies, who very experienced and who were again, because I was kind of coming off the Actually, I literally started fleshing out this idea. Right after around the time instructions included came out. So it was in this wave again, of thinking about all those 90s movies from Miramax that inspired me. And I was like, well, you don't really see those movies anymore. And part of it is because you know the people.
Alex Ferrari 41:15 Yeah, exactly.
Eduardo Cisneros 41:17 But leaving that aside, I think that, you know, there was there was something not cynical at all about those movies. And I think that the pendulum right now still in a very darker cynic cynical side of the spectrum. But I think because of the times we're living in, I'm like, I think it's time for a movie that wears its feelings on its sleeve. So well, long story short, we developed a script. And we were aiming for a similar thing, if you watch destructions, they're difficult tonal shifts that might look seamless, because we work very hard, but they're very tough to everybody to people who love and enjoy the movie. And luckily, it's been the majority of people who watched it. Even in script form. They said, I just loved that. And one minute, I'm laughing my ass off. And then the next one or two minutes later, I'm crying with this character genuinely going from and I'm like, well, that's life, right? Isn't that where we live? Like, we started out storytelling with tragedy and comedy. And I think it's become more and more more and more complex. I think we start need to start making mixing the sweet with a savory, you know, we need to start mixing one thing with the other and see what comes out of it. So this is all to say that that was a way to try and do that. And apparently, we did something good, because people are responding very positively to to the movie.
Alex Ferrari 42:46 And how was it working with your, your writing partner, Jason because Jason was on my show indie film hustle with his film, his Sundance Film, back in two, three years ago, now, Catcher in the Rye. And I had the pleasure of talking to him. And he was when I was speaking to him, he was starting to take writing seriously. He's been a producer for a long time. And he wanted to start writing. He's like, you know what I'm going to start writing. And this is what I'm going to do. So how did you guys get together? And then what is the process? Because I've only written? I've written with partners before, but I generally they didn't work out. Because I have I have since I've realized that I write well by myself. I can I can recall it. I could collaborate, but like the actual writing part process. How did that work out with you?
Eduardo Cisneros 43:37 Well, I again, this happened right around the time that instructions not included, came out and luckily sanfur panitch, who ran Fox international at the time, the International production division of Fox, he I said luckily he he knew what my role had been shepherding instruction on included creatively. Even before the movie came out, he was familiar with the process. And so when the movie came out, it was a hit. He offered me a to picture deal. So I I wrote my first movie for for them. And then when it came time to write my second movie, out of my two picture deal. He said you have to meet this guy pieces. Shuman, he's a producer. He wants to be a writer, etc. So I think you guys have a similar sensibility. And I was like, all right. Why not? So we, I you know, when you're in Hollywood, you have like, 100 meetings like this. Yeah. So I'm like, Okay, I guess one of those general meetings where you're like sitting there, awkwardly, it's almost like one of those,
Alex Ferrari 44:52 Like blind date. It's a blind date is essentially
Eduardo Cisneros 44:56 a blind date. But to me, it's almost like a play date where you're like, Your mom and this other woman are really good friends with you. Now you have to play with this kid. You might not even like them, you're stuck here with the sucker. Where do you go? Right? So, but in this case, it just, we started talking and he came, he came very well prepared, he came with like 10 log lines that he had, it was going one after the other in a minute now. And then, at the end, he's just started telling me this story that happened to him once and I'm like, oh, that that could be, that's a good, you know, jumping off point for a story, and we started fleshing it out. And we sold it and we're rooting for Fox, and that script has changed hands, and now it's now a searchlight. But I don't know what's going to happen to that story with it. But, you know, regardless of what happens to that script, we found that we just had a, you know, good chemistry, writing. And it's also so great, after years of being on my own, with the laptop, and inside my head, to have somebody to expedite the process where you're like, going back and forth, and ping pong, you know, mentally, and then something great comes out, I've been paired up with writers before, especially, you know, working for Hani or this and that you're always like, Alright, you two have to work on this, and I need to do your best, but you're like, I'm not enjoying this at all. Like, I have two ideas that very clear my head. Now, how would you explain this to this person, I don't understand what they're saying. I'm definitely laughing at their jokes. So this was just all I don't know. And he's a really nice person. And I also think that I, again, I keep mentioning handy, because he's such a formative person in my life, and as an artist, and professionally, but he's such a nice person to everybody. And he's the biggest star out there. And I might give, he can be the biggest game in town and the biggest person that market and be remember your name, and say hi to you, and each person in the room and treat them with dignity. Like I want to be that person to you. No, absolutely. So I think Jason shares that value. So we're like, I want to work with them. I want to work with somebody who's who shares those values as well, not only creatively on the page, but also how to behave as a human being. That's important.
Alex Ferrari 47:31 So this is essentially a buddy a buddy comedy, essentially correct? Yes. So what what is what makes a good buddy comedy?
Eduardo Cisneros 47:43 Good, buddy, buddy, come buddy, comedy. And comedy means it's, anyone makes the comedy work, it's, again, it goes back to two POV goes back to point of view. What I find useful when come when it comes to writing any story, but also comedy is just to know what you're talking about right to know what your movie is about? And to know what is the subject matter. And for a comedy, what do you want is to people who have different ways to approach this same subject matter whether is fame, or love or sex, what do you want opposing points of view, but at the same time, they have to have complimentary abilities. So they kind of need each other. And so, again, you have to decide what your your tone is, but there is Philomena, one of the movies that I watched and was very influential also right and half brothers. Steve Coogan is, I think a comedic genius. I love the old trip series. It's a road movie series on it on its own. And but what makes the movie even more than whatever their mystery they're trying to unveil as Judi Dench and her point of view and she's this very, quote unquote, simple woman who's very earnest, and she's has all this faith, and she's superstitious and this and this super skeptical, cynical, snarky British guy who Steve Coogan into the interaction of the two of them, whatever they do, they can follow them on the fly, right? The sparks that are flying from the conflicting points of view. I think that and I think that's what makes the comedy work.
Alex Ferrari 49:54 So it's something like so something like 48 hours, you know, you have very two different point of views with Eddie Murphy. acknowledge these characters and Lethal Weapon and, and and obviously half brothers as well. They're very and you can you actually like the main character when you see him? You can tell he's uptight. He's an uptight and uptight dude. And then you just put the complete mirror image of them the other dudes Like what? It's like very, very, it's so you just want to see the uptight dude get poked constantly. And it's even funnier. And the other guy, I think it's funnier to when the other guy doesn't even realize he's poking them. And look, I'm just doing, I'm just doing me, man, I didn't mean to. Yeah. What do you mean is, it's wrong to run with a goat? Yeah, just having the goat. Having the goat that was beautiful. By the way. I love that like, having a goat as part of like, walking around with a goat is amazing. Great image.
Eduardo Cisneros 50:56 Again, I think, you know, you're giving me a good, good opportunity to talk as an example of what is your subject matter? Right? We really we were really trying to keep always, in, always inner sight that this wasn't a movie about empathy, and about the ability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. Which Renato, the main character completely lacks, right? He's very uptight. He thinks he's the smartest person in the room all the time. He thinks he's very hard working self made. And obviously, what life is going to give him is the chance to meet his half brother who is the completely opposite, or what he thinks is, is the completely opposite, right? Because Renato was born in Mexico, his father left never came back him and his mom had to fend for themselves. And he was he teased himself because he himself like a self made man, and everything that he has, like, because he busted his ass. And so he has no patience for excuses. He has no patience, we will not drive. And then lo and behold, he has what he perceives as greeneville brother, you know, this millennial kid was like, wants to be an influencer and you know, make money really quick. And he's awesome person with a lot of empathy. He's a little bleeding heart person who like loves animals and the planet and culturally sensitive like us things. So it's the right kind of person that will test his patience, and he would not be anywhere near prison like that, if it were not for the circumstances of the movie. So that was, that was a lot of fun to write.
Alex Ferrari 52:42 And when when is the movie coming up?
Eduardo Cisneros 52:45 December 4, in theaters, in whatever is safe to go to the movie theaters. And I'm, I mean, there's also drive in theaters, etc. I again, this is a movie came out of watching all those movies that we talked about all the films from the 90s. And a lot of it is a collective experience, right? Like a movie that's a little democratic, that we can all enjoy together and share the laugh. And the laughter, the the emotion, the tears. So I'm hoping that people get to do that whenever it's prudent to do so. Right? And, and that they find a way to enjoy it in a collective experience,
Alex Ferrari 53:32 and I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?
Eduardo Cisneros 53:43 Um,
Alex Ferrari 53:45 I mean, won't be on your gravestone. So just off the top of your head.
Eduardo Cisneros 53:51 There's a few that I love. I love 28 days. Yeah. Sandra Bullock. The movie sent me She didn't write it. This is Santa grant. I think it's the writing. If I'm not mistaken, that's a great, dynamic character that I feel in this script form. They do a great job of earning every step of her turn, without hitting you in the head with anything. By using all these tools from a and recovery, it's a great it's a very smart way to show you how this character is evolving in a way that they need to evolve. Well, it turns out Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is another one.
Alex Ferrari 54:40 I mean, Charlie Kaufman is a general statement.
Eduardo Cisneros 54:44 I feel like should I say that?
Alex Ferrari 54:47 And Groundhog's Day, obviously, we spoke about Groundhog's Day.
Eduardo Cisneros 54:50 Yeah, I'm deliberately trying to not mention movies. So I can get a little bit more room but mean Casa Blanca, probably.
Alex Ferrari 55:06 And then the comedy. I always tell people like if you want, if you want good comedy to Blazing Saddles, you can't go wrong with Blazing Saddles.
Eduardo Cisneros 55:15 Yes.
Alex Ferrari 55:17 I have almost anything Mel Brooks Spaceballs, even even Robin Hood Men in Tights. Stuff that
Eduardo Cisneros 55:25 Well, I think, you know, I think the South Park movie has a
Alex Ferrari 55:29 What an amazing that what anything they do is amazing.
Eduardo Cisneros 55:33 And they they're amazing, amazing writers. And here's the other thing with comedy. It's, it's, it's so personal to that and we live in a world is becoming more and more personal because you can cater so specifically the comedy that you consume to your taste. And that because the content content exists, right before you like, well, there's one studio movie in the store. We have
Alex Ferrari 56:00 five nominees. That's it.
Eduardo Cisneros 56:02 There's five comedies this year. Yeah, exactly. You're bored TV networks, and that's whatever. Now there's like all these other avenues and all these other platforms. And you can if you're like a queer, brown, Latino, bilingual, there's something for you.
Alex Ferrari 56:18 So there's a platform for you, sir. 799 a month?
Eduardo Cisneros 56:23 Exactly. With a seven day free trial. So that's why studio comedies are suffering a bit because now comedy has become so such an individual experience. Right? But But again, and again, like if you can, at some point hit gold when you find the right comedy, and people do like being a room with other people. And when, when it's normal to do so again, but you haven't experienced again, I'd say comedy and horror, that when you do get a good one, and you're in a room with other people in screaming and or laughing out loud. That's such a great catharsis, that when you find it, and it's good and smart, and well made, I think it's gone. And there will be more.
Alex Ferrari 57:08 Yes, hopefully soon, hopefully. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
Eduardo Cisneros 57:18 How to keep interviews short? Answer say I don't think I've learned that lesson.
Alex Ferrari 57:28 And we'd love you for that, sir. We'd love you for that. And, and if and what do you have anything else coming out soon? Are you working on anything else?
Eduardo Cisneros 57:37 I'm working on a short circuit. I think we're talking another hour about it.
Alex Ferrari 57:42 Are you working on Short Circuit the reboot?
Eduardo Cisneros 57:45 Yes. And I want to say this, because I read this when when the mood when the news came out. This is a movie that I loved as a kid and been offered a lot of remakes after injection included, a lot of things came my way. I've turned down many remakes because out, because it's just tough to write a remake. It really, really is. And it's not that I'm like, this great amount of dignity, which I want to think I do. But it's more like, I want to do a great job, I want to do a great job writing the script is just really tough. But when I learned that the rights were available, and a light bulb went off in my head, and I was like, Oh, I got it, I know what it is. And on top of that, because I am a brown guy and Latino man, I'm always gonna tell stories from that perspective. So it wasn't like, Oh, I'm gonna brown stuff, stamp the story. And I'm gonna like just take this old story and put it which which happens a lot. In this case, I'm very passionate. I think Jason I found a very special new take on the story and even more so to see within the context of Latin x characters, which we rarely ever get to claim anything that is fantasy or comedy. So if I can call dibs on that sense. It's really amazing. So this is where we're working. We're writing a remake?
Alex Ferrari 59:21 Well, I've spoken to john on the show, john Burnham, the original director of the original short circuit many times and John's a just a treasure and a wealth of knowledge and I've told them so many times short circuits like one of my favorite 80s movie like I when I saw when I saw that when I was I was like, fifth grade I think when I was when I saw that so it was like Johnny five Johnny Oh my god, it was amazing. So I'm looking forward to seeing your your you and Jason's new take on it. It could definitely use with an update. It didn't didn't age. It definitely a movie of its time. So I'm really curious to see what you do with it. But But thank you so much for being on the show. I I appreciate what you're doing. I can't wait to see half half brothers. And I hope everybody goes out and sees it, my friend. Thank you so much.
Eduardo Cisneros 1:00:07 Thank you.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:08 I want to thank and why there's so much for being on the show and sharing his screenwriting journey with the tribe today. Thank you so much, Eduardo. If you want to get links to anything we talked about in this episode, please head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/097. And don't forget to check out half brothers, his new movie available in theaters as we speak and hopefully soon available online as well. Thank you guys against so so much for listening. As always keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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I’m so excited to bring this episode to the BPS Tribe. Today we have legendary screenwriter James V. Hart. James is the screenwriter behind some of Hollywood’s biggest blockbusters like HOOK, directed by Steven Spielberg based on an idea by Hart’s then 6-year-old son, Jake, BRAM STOKER’S DRACULA, directed by Francis Ford Coppola, MUPPET TREASURE ISLAND, directed by Brian Henson, and CONTACT, directed by Robert Zemeckis. MARY SHELLEY’S FRANKENSTEIN, TUCK EVERLASTING, AUGUST RUSH, SAHARA, LARA CROFT: TOMB RAIDER: THE CRADLE OF LIFE, AUGUST RUSH and many more.
“No one has a job in our business until you type ‘the end’.” — James V. Hart
Dracula has a special place in my heart as it is one of the major influences that made me become a filmmaker.
James has served on the faculty of the Columbia University Graduate Film program. Served as mentor and advisor at the Austin Writer’s Ranch, Sundance Film Labs, and the Equinoxe-Europe Writing Workshops for over 20 years in 11 countries. Hart has also conducted the Puglia Experience for writers and producers held in the Puglia region in Italy.
During the making of Dracula Francis Ford Coppola called James up and told him he hated everything about the story and the movie they had shot. James sat down with Francis and beat up the film and story. Frustrated that this happened, James set out to develop a tool that could help him map out the screenplay’s emotion before they ever start shooting. The HART CHART was born.
Originally launched online at the 2015 Austin Film Festival, James has developed a proven story mapping tool for serious writers working in television, film, novels, plays, and other literary forms, with a guarantee you will never face a blank page again.
James and I discuss THEHARTCHART, his journeys in Hollywood, how he became a 20-year overnight success, what it was like working with master filmmakers like Coppola, Speilberg, and Zemeckis, and how he breakdowns a blockbuster story idea.
This is one episode for the record books. Enjoy my conversation with James V. Hart.
Alex Ferrari 0:48 I'd like to welcome to the show James V. Hart. How you doing James?
James V. Hart 4:55 So far, so good.
Alex Ferrari 4:56 Thank you so much for coming on the show. I am We were talking a little bit before we started recording. I am a huge fan of many, many of the movies you've done you, you kind of were there at the beginning of my journey as a filmmaker with with hook and Dracula specifically and we'll we'll get into all of those as well. But I mean, you've you've done a lot, sir. In your in your, your, your tenure in Hollywood.
James V. Hart 5:23 I did have a little help. Along with substantial help.
Alex Ferrari 5:28 Yes, exactly. And it's and of course, everyone always looks at you know, your careers like yours like Oh, God, he you know, he just started off with Spielberg but now he's, he was hustling a little bit prior to hook.
James V. Hart 5:41 I was 44 years old I was the overnight sensation has been standing in the corner for 20 years.
Alex Ferrari 5:47 So let's let's get into that. How did you get started in the business?
James V. Hart 5:51 Well, I grew up in the in the 60s, went to film school at a nondescript film school in Texas and and I had always my dad was a big driving movie guy. So he was always throwing us in the car and popping popcorn and going to the movies and, and we had a place in Fort Worth called the gateway theater. So on Saturdays, my mom would dump us there. 25 cents. We got two features, five cereals, 100 cartoons, and we spent the whole day at the movies. And then we go home and reenact the film's I didn't know you could I didn't know how to how to get in the movie business. And then and then we started going as teenagers on Friday night, we got really interesting. But I became obsessed with films and from very early stage and my parents were their credit never talked me out of it. And we didn't know. So I went to SMU which had no very little known film school but a gentleman named William Jones. Are the head of our department brought in some of the hidden relationships all over him all over the country. I mean, George Roy Hill came to you in 1969 with a wet gate answer print but you don't know what that is a way to answer.
Alex Ferrari 7:08 I actually didn't answer but I actually I actually shot film back in the day so I I'm aware I am a wet gate answer print of Butch and Sundance.
James V. Hart 7:17 Nobody seen it. There were just 30 of us. We spent five hours of George Roy Hill after watching the movie discussing Alan pakula brought still cuckoo Dennis Hopper hidden and and jack showed up with EZ rider. And I watched you know every co ed in the room sign jack Nicholson's arm with their phone number. So we didn't have you know, we could text in those days. Right. Right. So and so and we didn't know and we weren't we weren't UCLA we weren't, you know, NYU, or neither of us in the big film schools. But we had this amazing access. I mean, Robert armour brought mash the screen, oh my god, that's at SMU and it saved the film. They were gonna dump it because the they were doing Torah Torah or some big. They were just letters. And the reaction in Texas at the at our film festival changed the course of that film. So I was I didn't know how blessed we were. I thought everybody you know,
Alex Ferrari 8:16 Robert Altman and jack nicholson and Dennis Hopper walk and
James V. Hart 8:19 you're hanging out with him and stuff, you know, and and so and we made films, we made narrative, you know, 30 minute color films and at SMU and just nondescript film school and decided that, you know, I didn't go to Vietnam, I got lucky. And I just told my mom and dad I wanted to make a movie business.
Alex Ferrari 8:41 They said, okay, and this is what the time and this is a time when the movie business. That wasn't even a considered a career.
James V. Hart 8:48 Like that's not a thing. To the 60s and 70s were exploding in the indie film world national address. I have to point to lm Kit Carson, who came to kit was one of the leaders of the indie film movement. And David Holtzman diaries sort of set the standard the Jim McBride film, changed everything. kit was a journalist and also wrote criticism and everything was he was a an amazing person he got Wes Anderson started art BB was part of nobody starts with Andersen business. And he was part of that. So he came and lectured at our class that we only had 15 students in our film class. There were 30 in the department. Right? We were lined up bolex. As you know, I remember. And Kip came to show us David Holtzman diary, which if you haven't seen is an incredible first kind of mockumentary or first kind of documentary that wasn't really a documentary. And I asked a few questions during the session. And afterwards, he said, Come on, let's go have coffee. And he took me to the on the campus there and we went to the student center had coffee and he basically was saying, This is what you're going to do. You're going to Right. And in those days you didn't think about being a writer you thought about being a director, the director a superstar, you know, and, and it was right he was sort of outed me and got me thinking about the possibility and associate Coppola had started zoetrope there was independent film and didn't Dennis change the world with easy writer? Five Easy Pieces. Bob mapleson them in the in the money Helman. You know, were these groundbreaking directors that were doing stuff their way. So my friend and I got in our van. We sent our movie to Francis Coppola, American zoetrope and we drove to California in our van. And we went to Los Angeles and knocked on the door there at TPC at the rave, Wilson's production company, met with him. And then we drove up to San Francisco and set in San Francisco, his office reception room for a week. Really, every day we were the guys from Texas. We came here to see Mr. Coppola. We sent him our film, you know. And the dragon lady, of course said well, you know, he's really busy. And this was a British at the very beginning of zoetrope. This was like this was I mean,
Alex Ferrari 11:18 it had THX been released yet had THX been released yet or
James V. Hart 11:21 not yet. There's just just just released. He was doing rain people, right. And so George Lucas would come in and out, you know, there was a God who did the thing, the director who did write stuff,
Alex Ferrari 11:37 which was Oh, yeah, I know. He's talking about yeah, I forgot his
James V. Hart 11:40 San Francisco directors. That whole crew was brilliant. Brilliant. cinematographers cable Deschanel, Caleb Deschanel, you know, in and out. And we sat there all week long. We're back. You know, she will, you know, he's really busy. I've told him, you're here, you know. And finally, on Friday, we didn't get the hint. You know, it's like, finally she said, you know, he's leaving for the weekend. He's really not going to be able to see you. And we said, well, we'll come back Monday. She said, Well, he's going to be gone for a very long time. So about this time I see through the little glass hallway portal window, you know, your comms Copeland, he had Jerry Garcia hair in those days. Yeah. And he opens the door and walks into the reception room, we get Mr. Copeland Mr. Kabila where the guys from Texas, and I know the dragon ladies behind us going, you know, and Francis didn't say a word. He just wheels pivots and heads right back through the door and waved at us over his shoulder and says, keep making movies. And Steven and I went, Wow, Francis Coppola just told us to keep making movies. Wow. Not knowing of course, we were being really blown off. And Francis did get Steven, my my partner then in filmmaking, a drama, or Roger Corman kill that we're shooting in Texas. So he, he did come through, but years later, when we were doing Dracula, I told him the story. And he said, You know how many guys like you showed up my office? I have no idea. I can't remember a thing about this. Thank you, sir.
Alex Ferrari 13:13 Thank you. Mr. Coppola. Thank you.
James V. Hart 13:15 That gave us the bug. We went back to Texas at Princeton Kobo said for us to keep making movies, which wasn't a lot, which was a lie,
Alex Ferrari 13:22 which wasn't a lie.
James V. Hart 13:24 So we raised money in Texas and shot a film in Europe that Leon Capitan has directed who if you google him, you'll find out who he worked with the great directors and committee directors got in a lot of festivals. Ken brought it out to LA to sell it. It was it was when Dirty Harry was popular. We were doing a European style movie about two hitchhikers from North Carolina hitchhiking around Europe during the summer. And what was happening is we're more like Truffaut, we didn't have any killings or car chases or right but it got it got us It won a lot of awards at festivals and even Peter guber saw it said, I hope my first movie is this good. So we kept being encouraged. We kept being killed with kindness. You know, and, and I didn't start writing until I wrote in high school, but I never did know it was a job. And we were raising money for another couple of other bad Texas films that were nightmares. And the scripts kept coming in and I kept going, I don't, this is not good. So my friend Bill Kirby, William Chamberlain, Kirby, the Name of the Rose, that he wrote, he did Halla he wrote how he wrote stunt man a bunch of stuff, he was my mentor. And we started writing together and wrote several scripts and never got made but they they gave us a profile. And the first script I wrote by myself, I put my put another name on it. I was embarrassed. Anybody would think that I was raving about it was called frat rats, it was basically Animal House before Animal House became a big lawsuit. But I put a name of a person on it I hated in college. So you know, they're suddenly my disguise. And then people would give me criticism, not knowing it was me, which is a huge help. And also, it also taught me to be touched with developing a thick skin. Okay, and not react. But I started writing and got some I got a couple of blessing. I got hired to write my male cheerleader story, my Texas experience, which is a terrible film, but gave me a chance to get produced and find out what it was like to get paid to write. Because that's when it changes. So So paper, right, that's when it changes.
Alex Ferrari 15:51 You'll absolutely then it becomes Siri like, Oh my god, this is real. Yeah, I remember when I got paid to direct I was like, Ah, oh my god, this is this is a thing. I can actually do this. I'm not just do I'm not actually paying for the privilege of doing that somebody actually is paying me to do it. So okay, so from your male cheerleader, Texas movie, which I'm assuming that was the one that
James V. Hart 16:11 You give me an F
Alex Ferrari 16:13 Yeah, give me that's what I thought it was. Give me an FM assuming that give me an F. From Oh god, what was the covers like something from beaver?
James V. Hart 16:22 Beaver, beaver?
Alex Ferrari 16:24 beaver view or something like that? Like, oh, wow, I saw that. I was like, Yeah. Hey, you know, hey,
James V. Hart 16:30 we also when I wrote it, I wrote mash for girls. Yeah. The producers got a hold of them. Wait, we can't do that. We can't make this movie we'd have to do to an ass and you know. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 16:39 of course. So
James V. Hart 16:40 I watched the movie and I just go That was my last. My last comedy. Yeah, exactly. What I wrote was really Savage. And and and the way the girls talked and the way they thought. So more, it would be more
Alex Ferrari 16:53 kind of like, like Fast Times at ridgemont High because that was actually that was a more It was funny, but it was actually really raw and really authentic. But the producer Slap Shot slap shot.
James V. Hart 17:04 Shot. That's when I saw that. I went Hey, there it is. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 17:08 yeah. So Alright, so you go from, from your male cheerleader movie. How do you go from there to working on hook? Because this is a big jump there. There's a because in the IMDb the your IMDb. There's a big gap from 1984 to 1991. And there's I'm sure some stuff happened there. But I'm really curious on you know, that doesn't have to be the whole story. But just how did you get into the office? And how did you get that gig because I'm assuming in 91. This is pre Jurassic Park. So I know during that time, because my time my timeframe, I was working in the video store from 8788 to about 93.
James V. Hart 17:48 Kevin Smith,
Alex Ferrari 17:49 yeah, it can't turn to Kevin Smith. All that. Yeah, I was that time period. So in that time period, I'm pretty much excellent in trivia, like I know, all the movies got released during that time, and you made a bunch of them in that time. And I know from my recollection, Spielberg had already Stephen had already had a couple of, he was always Steven, and he was always a hit. But a lot of people were saying, Oh, it's over for Steven, you know, it's great. He hasn't really had a big hit in a while. This is pre special in this list and pre Jurassic Park. And a butt butt hook was a big deal when it was being produced. It was like, everybody wanted to be on the set. It was huge. How did you get that gig?
James V. Hart 18:28 Well, it wasn't a gig. I created it. My son, my son at age six at the dinner table, who's now my writing partner said what a Peter Pan grew up. It was a game we played this game. I was a very successful development deal writer who wasn't getting anything made. But making a living, making living in the development. Right, you know, made a living, put kids through private school, and my son would come home and say, dad, everybody wants to know what movies you've made. And I couldn't point to give me an app. Because when you said I showed him the wall of scripts I'd written I had written for Spielberg, I'd written for Frank Marshall, I'd written for Robert Redford and Paul Newman to reunite. I mean, it had some very prestigious gigs. None of them got made. So when it came time for I decided that there were two films that I had to make Dracula and hook. And I was actually fired by CAA and let go because I hadn't had anything made and I was in my 40s while I was writing hook and Dracula. Yeah, Dracula Dracula was set up as a USA movie for television with a budget of two and a half million dollars. And dear sweet Karen Moore, who were still friends today, paid me to write that script. At the same time, I was working with Craig, Craig Baumgarten and Adelson, Greg, Greg Thompson, on a development deal at Sony and they came to me and said, What do you have that nobody wants to do? I had tried I pitched hook all over again. When my son gave me the idea that my daughter now was part of that she just read her fourth film. When we came up with hook. It was blasphemy. You know, you were treading on sacred ground. You couldn't have been have a grown up Peter Pan. Steven was trying to do Peter Pan But Michael Jackson Coppola had tried to do Peter Pan Jose for a bunch of people had wanted, but john Hughes wanted to do Peter Pan. They all kept coming up with the same idea. The darlings, go back to Neverland are the darlings children go back in there. So there's always the same story. And it wasn't until Jake said in the doing our What if game, you know, dad did Peter Pan or up and I said of course he didn't. You know, that's stupid question being a good parent that I was. And Jake said yeah, but what if Peter Pan grew up and boom, the bells and whistles went off? we pitched it all over town. Everybody passed on it. Finally Craig Baumgarten said what do you have, that nobody wants to do? And I gave my 10 pages on Huck brought in Nick castle who I adored his film. Boy, you could fly we did. We made a lowball development deal with Jess against he had at TriStar Sony TriStar as a favor. Nobody gave a shit about what we were doing. So Nick and I went off for a year and smoke cigars and, and drink single malt and, and and took this took the idea of the story. From you know, what was the worst thing I could do to Peter Pan Europe making be a lawyer? You know? So we spent a year on the script just having a ball against he leaves Sony and Robert and Mike medavoy comes in. And usually whenever you know the drill, the studio head changes everything.
Alex Ferrari 21:42 Oh, yeah. It's all painted. It's tainted.
James V. Hart 21:44 Yes. The painted it didn't work with Mike medavoy reads the script goes, wait a minute. This is huge. I don't know this is going on. I mean, I'm trying to pay the light bill. You know. And so, Mehta boy got together with CAA, and they went out to five directors over one weekend. And I still don't know who all was on that list, but I know most of them. Stephen was the one who said yes. And and my wife always knew that if Stephen found out about hope that he would do it. Because it it lay it was a it was a it hit all of us, right. In our guts. This is we were all fathers, we were you know, Dustin was older. He had kids, Robin was was turning 40 he had kids and Steven was having a new family, you know, everybody who suddenly had that Father thing going on that responsibility of what happens when you grow up and and you've forgotten your childhood. So we were actually in Wyoming. Staying with friends, we'd rent and we rented out both of our apartments. We had the kids, you know, I was trying to help with my credit card work to pay the lunch bill, Cadillac jacks. And in those days, we didn't have cell phones. I had to go downstairs to the payphone, hope my credit card work and check my answering machine remember answering?
Alex Ferrari 23:07 I do sir.
James V. Hart 23:13 And there was a entry machine from john. And the message from john Levin has been mine was my agency a and it still isn't in my representative were like 35, almost 40 years. He said, call me. There's a very big director that that wants to do hook. So I called him and we spoke and I said, if it's not Spielberg, we're not having a conversation. Anyway, that's who it is. So I went back upstairs to my kids and to Judy, and we've all been there, you know, trying to figure out where we're gonna go next. And gave him the news. And it was, you know, it was it was a tremendous, it was like it, you know, it's one of those Hollywood stories, you know, you just it happened. And so, I and I had written the script long before Spielberg was involved. Right. Just still an issue, you know, that the so much creativity? I mean, I created roofie Yeah. You know, I created that whole multi racial last white thing we could, we had Wendy grow up with it be old and we did all the stuff we'd actually there's a lot more bury in the script. And that there isn't in in the, the Disney version, you know, so if suddenly the world everything changed. And, Nick, you know, Nick, it was difficult to watch Nick be replaced because we both worked so hard on it. That's why I insist and you get story credit, but within the same period of time, I turned in Dracula, six weeks later. Now this is an agency that fired me
Alex Ferrari 24:49 and you and but were they representing you at this point,
James V. Hart 24:51 I asked him to please stay us and I'm writing these two scripts. Well, nobody's gonna do those. Just represent me until I get to that point where I'm done. And then you can cut me loose. And my lawyers tried all over town to give you nobody wanted to represent me. While I was writing these scripts, Dracula had done 100 times, nobody was going to do Dracula. Nobody want to do grown up Peter Pan, and to john lemons credit john live and took cook, to Dustin and Robin. And they went, Stephen.
Alex Ferrari 25:22 Oh, that's how it went. So it was it was through the day went apple.
James V. Hart 25:27 Smart. Exactly. And john Levin went to Winona Ryder. And nobody could believe she wanted to do Dracula and she's the one who called Francis and said, will you read this script for me? Because I needed to know if somebody wanted to play a grown up, you know? Plus, you've stuck it to him on godfather three by walking out the door. And then we got to meet Sophia. Yes, I remember. Of course. So. So in a matter of two months, I went from the Abyss to the two biggest directors and in my world wanted to do two scripts that nobody wanted to do it that everybody everybody passed on. So I didn't handle it very well, I was, you know, all these agents, and they call you back and go, Hey, we were just kidding. You know, we didn't. I didn't make decisions, but somebody else's decision, and I'm just going you're on the same writer I was when you were gonna represent me. So I'll stick with john lemon. Yeah, that's a man. And that's, that's how I got the gig. And I watched I watched two of the greatest directors in the world struggle. I have such admiration for what they had to go through to get those movies man.
Alex Ferrari 26:41 Spielberg was dope. Yeah. Cuz hook was took was a challenging film to make, technically and creatively. And I mean, that's those sets. I remember hearing stories of everybody in Hollywood had to make a trip to the set because it says was so amazing. And it was a tough sell to I personally loved hook. And I thought it was amazing. And I and it gives me warm feelings inside every time I watch it. And now more than more than ever, because now I'm that 40 something with kids. And I loved it when I was 20 something but now it completely has a completely different connotation now, like, oh, wow, shoot, it's a completely different
James V. Hart 27:22 No, you know, your kids here.
Alex Ferrari 27:24 And now my kids seating and all that kind of stuff. But then with Dracula, Dracula was that first film, I remember seeing Dracula in the theater opening, it was a huge opening, I remember was
James V. Hart 27:36 at St. Francis his life and say, and set records, nobody could believe how big
Alex Ferrari 27:41 it was. And it was, if I remember correctly, one of the best trailers I had ever seen.
James V. Hart 27:48 It again is again, it's Oh, my God,
Alex Ferrari 27:50 whatever, a lot of trailer editor I mean, because that trailer sold the movie so beautifully. And the Witcher and then went in the way Francis went about it with this old kind of like turn of the century style filmmaking and using older technologies and reversing the film, and it was just so rich and the transitions and how he was able to do it. But you were telling me a story before we started recording that Francis made a phone call to you. Can you talk a little bit about that?
James V. Hart 28:19 grant, drat when Dracula sets for being built when hook was coming down, so it's kind of a heady time for me. But we'd had we'd had we were deep in post production and had a release date right around Halloween in 1992. And Francis had been in the editing room nonstop. And we've had two or three disastrous previews. I mean, just disastrous. And I watched this courageous man go, Oh, well, it's another rewrite. Let's go back, you know, and just the studio is panicking in there, want to shut it down and come and take over and what have you. So it was about mid, late summer. We're opening in October, mid December. I get a phone call at midnight in New York, from Francis. And when you know, Mr. Coppola calls you? You? Don't you wake up? And he says, Well, okay, Jim, I want you to get on a plane in the morning and come out here as fast as you can. To the I hate the film. I hate the script. I hate you. I hate the fact you ever wrote it. I hate the actors. I hate the studio. I hate the whole idea that I ever got involved in this piece of shit. I want to show you that movie.
Alex Ferrari 29:28 Wow. That's great sales pitch. Yay. I can't wait.
James V. Hart 29:34 So the next night on there and I'm in San Francisco and to God, I don't know how long I'm gone. I don't know what's happening. I don't know. The day trip. If I'm being fired the movies you know, I don't know what's happening. So, the next evening I'm down in The Godfather screening room there zoetrope is Francis called the Bohemian amblin you know, the big, big godfather couches and cigars and wine and liquor. And two women that spoke Romanian. I don't know why. They were there. But they were these two women. I think they were, you know, bite my throat. And Francis did even come down. He called me from the penthouse. Okay, good. You're here. You're fine. Yeah. Okay. So I want you to call me after you screen the movie, and I'll come down and we'll talk. This is about 10 o'clock at night. So, by 1030, I'm drunk. By the time the film is over, I'm kidding. I'm so angry. I'm so pissed. I mean, he was right. He was a piece of shit. You know, and I had been to all the dailies that we rehearsed, when we did this incredible prep that he prepped all the prep he did. I saw the storyboards we did. The screenplay was loaded by the actors, you know, there wasn't a bunch of people saying this sucks, throw it out, they wanted to add more. And then God, how did this happen? So then Francis comes down, and is dapper, you know, you were smoking robe and a Corvette and stuff, little pointed Turkish shoes, and, you know, and all happy and said, You didn't call me? I said, Yeah, I hate you, too. So he said, let me tell you that let me like a big kid, let me tell you the film I wanted to make. And I'm glad Didn't we just make this movie, you know, and he pitched me what I thought we'd shot. But what I begin to recognize is that during the shooting we had we set in the next two weeks and went through every footage, all the footage we had and went through the existing cut. And we begin to identify pieces of narrative that the film needed not whole scenes to be reshot. But pieces, transitions, piece of narration, and insert here, you know, and I kept saying, difference, there's got to be a way to head this off in the past. So you don't want to get the editing room, you fix some of this in the script, there's got to be a way to measure that script. And, and, and manage that script. So it's telling you a whole lot more than because we had we were thought we were golden. I had the greatest record in the world. And here we are in the interview and panicked. You know, especially indie filmmakers don't have the money to bring back, you know, when owner writer and, and Gary Ali, and everything, you know, they don't have that kind of money. They they're in the editor and going, we're pumped. Right. So this is where the heart chart came from. I'll just give you an example of the we didn't shoot any new scenes, we shot pieces, we realized that we had never seen Dracula and Mina together, I mean, his wife together before he went to battle. So when she hands him the helmet, you know, and he goes off to battle. The ending was the big controversy, because the ending didn't work. The ending, she stabs him and, and, and punches the knife into him, and she's redeemed and he dies at peace, and he's redeemed. And then she walks out the door and walks into the arms of Keanu Reeves. And the audience was like booing now, and I kept saying to Francis, that's not who they want to see. They want to see when they want to see when Ana and Gary stay together somehow, forever. Yeah, forever. So he had George Lucas and Mike. Ming, Ming Gala. Yeah. Hellboy. Watch the film, to see, yeah, we've done a cut we done, we spruce it up. And we told him where we were going to fill in these blanks and that sort of thing. We got to the end, and George said, You broke your rules, you you you don't have the right ending. She has to cut off his head, which is the rules you set up in the film, to totally redeem him. She's got to complete the mission, and then not walk out the door. Any kind of reasons aren't. So I'm here, Francis calling me and he said, okay, George saw the film. And he thinks that, you know, we got to do this. And he said, and he said, Do you think we can? I think Wynonna would, you know, come back and work with Gary, if she could cut off his head. And I said, I think that's the only way you would get her back. In law, you know,
Alex Ferrari 34:12 yeah, they had a rough a rough time on that set from what I heard legendary.
James V. Hart 34:17 So we came back and put that chapel scene backup together, he had built all those sets like theater sets, so we could just fold them out. That's incredible. Wow. Save the gargoyles. So in that last scene, where you see that all of that seamless work, some of the close ups and some of the shots are shot a year apart. And you've seen what they had to do wigs they had to do all this stuff, you know, and she cuts off his head and then Roman came up with the idea of the beautiful mosaic and the sealing of them together, you know, blend together. But I kept saying there has to be a way to in the screenplay form while you're doing the script to make Are these emotional journeys, your characters are going on in their head some of those off of the path, we should have caught the fact that she had to cut off his head. You know, we'd follow the emotional journey of what Kerry always had to do to say it by cutting off her head and taking out her heart, you know, if we, if I if I had been measuring that emotional journey instead of just admit a great scene, you know? So he said, Well, why don't you start with these three questions. And he gave me three journalist questions, which was the beginning of the heart chart. And the question were very simple. And I figured if I he said, Just answer those three questions before you start anything, again, before you start a story. And so I started using the questions. And then I expanded into 10 questions. And I started drawing these charts, these actual hand drawing charts to measure the heartbeat and the emotional journey of the characters. Not an outline, not cards on the wall, because even cars on the wall I get lost. Am I emotionally where am I pace wise? Where How important is this? So the chart? The chart was like your your EKG when you get your heart? Yeah, those of you who are old enough to do that. And I saw, so we started out by drawing them. That's the Austin Film Festival, one of the very early on. Yes,
Alex Ferrari 36:17 yes. Yeah, that's it.
James V. Hart 36:19 And then in 2015, guy, Goldstein came to me who did writers do it? And he said, I can do an app. But now we're an online app. Right? That is, that is the Dracula chart. The very first chart I ever did. Okay, there, there's the drawn one. So and I started doing it at the Austin film festival every year, but doing my films. And then people said, Well, do you wrote those films? Your your, you, you know, you did that on purpose. And so we started doing other people's films I've done Jordan Peele, get out. I've done Jamie, this is eels. lala land. Bo Burnham, eighth grade, the Wedding Crashers, you know, Batman, I mean, suddenly, you start applying these principles to it. And if you just follow this, you'll never face a blank page. You'll never be you'll never be writer's block. It does. I don't believe in writer's block. But my daughter just said it yesterday on her podcast, she doesn't believe in writer's block, either. That there are ways if you know crap, you're always jumpstarting, you're always writing and answering questions and solving problems. So the heart chart is this is my booklet. It used to be printed up and given away. That's how thick it is. How thick is Robert, Mickey's book? A bit thicker. And how much dust is it collecting on your show?
Alex Ferrari 37:45 A lot.
James V. Hart 37:47 Christopher Oliver has the only book that's as thick as makitas that should be used and listened Makita to great, did a lot for the screenwriting Training Unit. This is all you need. And it says right there and never face a blank page again. You have some shitty ones, you know, but you won't be blank. So this they finally begged me to put this together at Austin. And we just started it about three or four years ago, and it's caught on. And the app, the chart you saw is now available online. And it's an opt in opt out as a monthly subscription. And you can save everything in the cloud, every conversion you make every every change you make. And if you go to the website, you can see the examples. And you can see it come to life, I needed it because it showed me an emotional journey. What was pulling my characters through the narrative is that of being pushed. And that's what I've been doing all up until Dracula, you've been pushed, pushed everything. And even even hook I learned a lot on hook a finding character. If you do this, you will be writing character driven narratives as opposed to plot driven. And it's even now being used in some by some showrunners and TV to where they can take the chart and do a whole season. You know, really lets you see on one page, the emotional journey your characters go through, instead of an outline. You know, now there's a lot of work you do before that I mean, there's a lot of writing you do before you put it on the chart. But those three questions that Francis gave me is where where this all started, I went oh my god. And then people go, Oh, that's easy. You know, what does my character want? What do they need? What are they afraid of? What do you know? What what what what is their visible tangible goal? What is you know, is it a satisfying ending to the biggest one for me is do you have a satisfying ending? Not happy, not sad, not good or bad. But have you satisfied your audience with a journey you've taken? And I know everybody's got plenty of movies and TV series where they didn't like the ending of the series or like the end of the season. They didn't like the end of the you know, like last or so last is the battle or, you know,
Alex Ferrari 39:54 a good example of a movie that a show that did had a horrible ending that people hated was lost, but another Great one I feel is breaking bad. Like brick breaking badly ending was perfect and satisfying. And like, Vince did a perfect job. And that was a heavy, that was a lot of weight to carry, because he was so good. Almost every episode of that series was amazing. And it just kind of kept growing and growing. And if he if he missed the landing, the whole thing.
James V. Hart 40:29 Right Sopranos urban the last episode of Sopranos, you know, people like are the last even the last episode of Game of Thrones, like people pulling their hair out. So these are all things that I think you can vote on. I both agree on this, there's certain storytelling principles in the ether of the universe, you can't fuck with. Yeah, you can try and they're going to get you, right, or you could learn to manage them and use them to your benefit, like structure for me isn't is not a formula structure for me is like putting in a model. It'll actually liberate you, if you know structure. So my whole thing is about structure and about character driven narratives. And it's the only way I've survived it. You know, it's not one of those things where I'm a working writer, I use this every single day in my in my craft, I'm adapting a book right now for Scott Weiner. That's how I adapt. I actually do notes. Every day, I'm using this I use these principles, these questions, these signposts in every single thing I do. And you'll see some quotes from from some pretty big writers that that didn't want to know about it until they saw what I did with the chart. They went, Oh, my God, you know more about the movie than I do. Yeah. And I directed her I wrote it. So. So it's great for threshold writers, a lot of writers that are struggling to try to figure out how to how do I get to be that they I've seen him stop in the middle of my sessions and go and solve a problem and come back and say, I just solved it. I know what I'm missing. Now. And it's, I want it to be mechanical, not some, you know, spiritual guided talent that you can only half if you're special. It really, there really is a mechanical process to what we do. as writers.
Alex Ferrari 42:13 The one thing the one thing I and I just literally just had Chris on a couple of weeks ago, again, because it was 25th anniversary of writers.
James V. Hart 42:22 And I was on the trip. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 42:23 Yeah. And he and he's, I mean, I love Chris to death. And the one thing I was talking to him about in regards to plot and character plot and character because that's always a lot of people like on plot first only it's all only character based or um, or, you know, theme and all that. And people just try to pigeonhole themselves. But the one thing I think it was him or I think it was another guest that I spoke to, but this concept of all the great movies. What do you remember? Do you remember the plot? Or do you remember the character? Like I vaguely remember, I know I mean, I've seen all the Indiana Jones's. I remember Indiana Jones, I and I do remember some parts of Raiders of the Lost Ark plot like quote, unquote, plot, but I remember Indiana Jones. So characters are what we we don't identify with plot as a as a species. We identify with other human beings, other characters. And that's what you connect with, like you connect with Andy dufrane. In Shawshank. You know, the plot is the plot is fantastic. And but it's all about his experience in that. Did you ever heart chart Shawshank? Yes, I
James V. Hart 43:31 did. Frank. Frank, and I go way back. We did Frankenstein together. That was the last film he didn't direct. Frank talks about Shawshank in a very interesting way because a lot of writers don't want to know about structure and don't want to know about they want to be taught. They don't need any they don't have to learn anything. And Frank says will tell you that hey, I wrote Shawshank in five weeks. But he thought about it for eight years. Yes. When he sat down to write he had figured all of this out in his head structurally, character wise, where he needed a scene and why you know, he made so he did his chart in his head. Frank doesn't need my help. There's a lot of writers who do need this help. It helps a lot of threshold writers get off the dime. And I have I have writers from my Columbia classes that are now on directing and running companies and stuff and they still teach the heart chart, you know, to their incoming to their incoming writers. Shawshank Shawshank is probably one of the top 10 movies ever on anybody's list. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 44:34 it's my number one. I
James V. Hart 44:35 mean, everyone in this industry, looked at it his character, but it's also incredibly well structured. I mean, he'll be like yo bellows get shot. You know, you had to be you had to structure that character up to that point where you could not afford to lose him. And that's the point of no return. When he's dead. all bets are off. Right? Right, cuz you were like he's gonna get out. There's hope. Oh, Gotta hope there's hope and bang, pulls you right down the chart, you're up here, going, Okay, he's got there's news he's got he's gonna outrun you right down here.
Alex Ferrari 45:10 And then of course makes the villain even the the villain, even that much more villainous and like it completely just cements him as the absolute pure personification of evil. And by the way, that move that the end and by the way, anyone who hasn't seen Shawshank, sorry, spoiler alert on all this, but if he does that, and you will talk about satisfying endings. Yeah. I mean, that is that is a satisfying ending, seeing him do what he did the the, what's his name, Clancy, Clancy Browns character, get taken off, and then he's going to basically deal with whatever he was dishing out for the last 20 years himself as a prisoner. And then just that beautiful ending and from Roma, please tell me if this is true or not. The original ending wasn't what Frank had in mind, from my understanding that the studio executive said, No, they need to see meet each other on the beach. And that was added after Is that true?
James V. Hart 46:02 Yeah, that's true. Because I do think well, and that's, that's when the foot is, I don't know, where they where they came up with that where they came up with the ending part scripts days, if my my, my whole theory is you should be able to figure that out in the script stage, you're always going to learn something new from the footage. But if you track that emotional journey of those two characters, they have to meet on the beach. They have to
Alex Ferrari 46:27 and know when you say a match, so can I just kind of dive in a little bit deeper into the heart chart, because when you're saying you're tracking the emotional journey, what is exactly the heart chart doing to the character's emotional journey? Like how are you tracking this? Because it's, it sounds fantastic, but physically, like, physically, how is it working?
James V. Hart 46:45 I wonder, but they're gonna try to call up, call up one and show you. But by answering the questions, you get a series of pluses and minuses. This is good for the character. This is bad for the character, this progresses the character. This is an obstacle that stops the character, this decision that character makes is going to have a consequence is that consequence good or bad? So you begin to measure ups and downs, got it? setbacks, successes I have, I have a signpost I call the top of the mountain. And I have another one called the Cinderella moment, I have another one called resurrection opportunity. These are terms that nobody's heard before. I have veteran writers go I've never heard of a resurrection opportunity. What a great you know, and then where it goes and why on top of the mountain what I began to learn through fairy tales and really good narrative was that there's a top of the mountain dead center in your narrative. Where's as good as you're gonna get? Your it's the success that your main characters have had or something they've accomplished, where you're going. Yes, they've done it. Is it and where is it Chris Vogler. His center is the ordeal. Right? Oh, my ordeal is over here a little deeper in the top of the mountain. is is is become a term now. And how you structure the first half of your story. But this
Alex Ferrari 48:07 is the mountain but as the top of the mountain in the first act, second act, third act.
James V. Hart 48:12 Memories dead center, middle of a second. Okay. Even if you do five acts that matter. It's the dead center of your narrative. And I begin to measure certain films and look at them and go wow, I'm right. Indeed, they're good. The first one the good. Indiana Jones, the Primo
Alex Ferrari 48:31 Raiders of Lost Ark. Yeah,
James V. Hart 48:32 literally one hour into that film. He's got the ark. He's in the truck. He's got the girl he's on the boat. He's about to get a backrub you know, and, and boom, the movie is not over. everything after that is a serious complication to whether or not he's going to make it or not, or whether he and Marian are going to survive or how they're going to get to the end of the movie. Yeah. And I and Cindy and Dracula. I went back and looked at Francis cut and I timed the rules cafe scene where he gives you the diamonds and the tears and they actually meet. He takes her back and connects with her one hour and four minutes into the two hour and seven minute film. And that's as good as it gets for them. Everything else after that is complicated. And everybody's trying to pull you down the mountain Cinderella, which is where this started. Cinderella. She goes to the ball. Everybody has her phone number. You know the prince goes I'm not dancing with the sissy Edwards anymore. Mo Who were you? You know, she achieved her goal, which was in the real story was to get to the ball and plead to the prince for her father's estate to be given back to her. The Disney paid version and made it you know, I want to get married to a handsome prince. But that's the top of the mountain that's dead center in the narrative. And what happens Oh, damn, she stays too long at the ball point of no return can't be undone. You know consequences. Plan falls apart. You know the end of the second act. She's back home to change the toilets again. You know she'd never gonna get out. resurrection Oh, there's this glass slipper that she doesn't know about circulating town looking for resurrection opportunity. It gives your it gives your character that second hope and for the third act, so and I begin to measure really good filmmaking and really good even Tarantino is heavily structured.
Alex Ferrari 50:19 Oh, see, that's the genius that's the genius of quitting is because he's his films look like they were throwing together. But even Pulp Fiction you watch Pulp Fiction
James V. Hart 50:29 is perfectly perfectly perfectly structured. No, it's insane begin to be and begin to give me the feeling that structure and character go together. They're not. They're not competing with each other they are they are complementing each other. And if you, you learn this skill, mechanically, it teaches you how to do this. I don't think we're toward teachers, right? I don't like saying teach. It gives you strategies on how you're going to compensate for your work. In our chart also tells you how long it's been since you saw a character when they entered Oh, my God, I haven't had that character in 30 pages, or 15 pages or you know, so it begins to measure a pacing for you about when your exit stage left interstage right. You know, when, when a character shows up, and what their what the impact is they have one the other characters, sometimes your characters are going in opposite directions.
Alex Ferrari 51:18 But what I love, but what I love about your book, what you're with the heart, charm, love. And trust me, I'm doing this show, I've interviewed everybody. I've talked to everybody about all their different types of structures. I'm always fascinated when I hear something new that gets me excited. Because at the end of the day, we're all trying to get to the same place and we're all it's just different maps to the same place and some people might like Vogler better or true, be better or heart better. It's all relative. But what I love about what you're talking about is that you can see visually, the entire blueprint of your story. In a good word. Oh, yeah, a map or a blueprint of the whole thing, because the cards are one thing, but you can't physically you got to go into a graded. Yeah. But visually to be able to see how the emotion of your characters and the emotion of your store is being charted. Each one along the way, is fairly powerful. And when you see like there's a, there's a dip, oh, wait a minute, there's, there's no, there's a problem here. They're flat. They're flatlining. Well, you
James V. Hart 52:21 don't want to do Yeah, right. You're flatlining, you're dead. So that means there's something wrong over here. I
Alex Ferrari 52:26 haven't seen this character for a while. Maybe we should bring this back in. That is really fascinating. Can you tell me just the resurrection moment or opportunity in Shawshank? I'm trying to think in my head. I'm like, Well, where is that? Because he's lost? Oh,
James V. Hart 52:41 yes. Yes. When the restaurateur opportunity is when he was when Morgan goes into the goes into the the, the the review that he goes through all the time, and is he's been through all of this shit. And you know, they always turn him down. And this time he goes and tells the truth. He finally stops lying. And he tells the truth to the committee.
Alex Ferrari 53:05 But that's a resurrection for red but how about for Andy? Or is there an end?
James V. Hart 53:10 I gotta go back remember the movie?
Alex Ferrari 53:11 Because because i i agree with you. I think that the main character of the movie is red. It's not it's red. Red's the storyteller. It's his point of view. Everything's coming from reds point of view. But Andy, you don't see His resurrection moment because his resurrection moment is kind of shown to us.
James V. Hart 53:28 Let me think about that. Because it could be because when Gil bellows wood character gets killed, that's that's like disaster. It's all falling apart. So it's going to come after that whatever that resurrection. Opportunity is brandies and to come after that. And it may be it may be his that may be what prompts his brilliant escape. You know, his when he when he decided to get out. So in a way what he's facing in prison after Bella's is killed and he knows he knows that he's next that you know he'd the poster is the posters his fucking resurrection opportunity.
Alex Ferrari 54:07 When the one that when he when he clicks off in that first piece of plastic comes on?
James V. Hart 54:11 Yeah, but that was years before he puts the poster up. Right? Yeah. I don't remember when he did that. But the poster. It comes after guild's death. So whatever it is, it comes after Gil's death where he gets the impetus I'm getting out of here.
Alex Ferrari 54:31 Yeah, and it's it's difficult to kind of narrow it down because red is the main character and Andy's look and Andy's the back but but we actually the the resurrection moment for Andy is actually revealed to us at the end, when his entire story is kind of laid out. You're like, Oh, that's when it happened. So it's actually shown to us, but read you're absolutely right. And it's tracked so beautifully when he just goes you just tell the truth. Oh, it's people, the people who listened to the show know my affection for Shawshank Rita Frank efra and Green Mile I love Green Mile, love, love Green Mile as well. Now what is the biggest mistake You see? screenwriters make because you work with a lot of first time screenwriters. What is the one thing that you see like, Oh, god, this is the one thing?
James V. Hart 55:14 Well, again, that's why I did the toolkit. They don't understand structure. at all, they think that they think it's, it's really not your enemy. It's your, it's your friend. And once you discover the structure doesn't make every single film the same. Even though the signposts are in my work are the same. You can rearrange them can't change, appointed, overturn, can't change, plan falls apart, can't change, resurrection opportunity can't change top in the middle. You know, if you have those four things you can write, back, you go by I try to I try to unsatisfying ending. If you if you haven't know what those are, you can write backwards, you know what your first sight has to accomplish to set you on that journey. The other thing too, is I think that they're they overwrite dialog, and they say, they're not able to write behavior into their scripts, they say everything on the on the, on the nose dialogue, or acquisition all being being verbal. So I miss behavior. And executives don't like to read behavior. They like to read dialogue with a lot of white on the page. So tell me what's going on. But good writers who can write behavior into their characters. So the plan for indie, it's being afraid of snakes? You know, there's a phobia, you know, that that you know, is going to show up again, you know, that that snakes going to show up again, it's just when so that structure is anticipation structure. Maybe it should make you anticipate not go Okay, well, here comes the part where, you know, the monster is not really dead. Yeah, we know that. He's right. It's how it's delivered. And I get the my favorite example is always tell I've worked, I watched I've worked with Robin Williams, who was he and his family were great friends. And we
Alex Ferrari 57:03 know, I can imagine, here,
James V. Hart 57:05 but I watch Robin, the best structuralists I ever saw at work was run whims. Interesting. I just think that all this stuff came out of his mind he was pulled in from everywhere, you know, and all India, he did have a great database. But I watched him film live his stand up show for HBO three nights in a row. And at the end of in, at the end of each night, he would take the card out of his back pocket and start making notes and scratch things out and move, you know, and he would he would talk to you maybe maybe had dinner before or something, he would pick your brain on something and he would show up in the show. But I watched him rearrange his his cards every night. You know, to find to try to find that smooth ride that he wanted one thing led to another but it seemed like it came out of nowhere. You know? And the for those that don't believe me if you've ever seen the history of golf? My Robin Williams
Alex Ferrari 57:57 Oh, that was an amazing I love that doesn't matter how many times you watch it? How
James V. Hart 58:01 many times you see him do it. Same fucking punch line every time. Yeah. And you're laughing at all the same players that you've heard it for the first time, that structure, you know, and all your friends that do improv and dazzle you with Oh, how do you do that? It's structure. They have a set of circumstances and a set of Givens and a set of sign posts and a set of circumstances that they always resort to, to then invent inside that box.
Alex Ferrari 58:25 And and that's the interesting because I know exactly the bit you're talking about because I pissed myself every single time I saw him play do that. And and it was so and I you know what thinking back when I when I heard him doing that bit, which is like why did the Scottish create golf, and how and then the story of the dude that actually creates it, and how he builds stages sections and it's plotting and I never thought about that in joke writing because I'm not a joke writer or stand up. But he actually structured that so beautifully. Because when you think he's done, he's like, no, wait a minute, we're gonna do this, this this 18 die, and then we're gonna do Oh, yeah, we'll throw it sand in it. We'll do this. And then hey, let's do it. Eight to 10 you're just like, oh my god, this is amazing. We're gonna throw this little ball of 1000 you're gonna feel like it's a string. We'll call it a stroke. That's right. Because every time you miss you feel like you have a heart attack.
James V. Hart 59:20 You can't you can't you can't argue that he makes that up as he goes along, but it feels like it. That was his brilliance. That was it. And also anybody knows where they say about a comedian. He has good timing or she has good time he or she really knows how to land a line or that structure.
Alex Ferrari 59:35 Interesting. Interesting. So that yeah, it was it was and i and i had a short interaction with Robin, about three months before he passed and I he was such a gentle soul. And I just, I don't know, but because you were really good friends with him. There was something I felt off when I met him. I felt this kinetic thing that was coming off of him, even though he was quiet and calm that day. But you could feel that that was just the energy. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but he's just like this, this energy that just kept going on like, Oh my god, I must be insane to deal with because he was that thing that you saw on stage.
James V. Hart 1:00:11 Yeah, he's actually very shy, right? Very common, very quiet and reserved and, but but if you threw the match in the haystack, he felt obligation to he felt that obligation to perform and entertain and make everybody feel good. But I mean, when we dinner with his kids, I mean, the kids dominate the conversation and Robin would just sit, listen, but he, he was very attentive that way. And, and it was the side of him that you don't expect to see. And also just that he had a hit a lot of things going on in his life in himself anyway. I'll do a robin story is sure, please, it's my wife and I were there with them and happened to you know, what did never show up in a routine. But, and Marsha is good, his incredible life with kids. We're still very close. We were at we went to San Francisco and I introduced him to Albert do up until the very famous French comedian who he loved. And we all went to dinner at one of their cool restaurants in San Francisco, big high ceilings, and we have a long table, you know, and everybody's looking at Robin, you know, and, and on the wall, there's a group that are from Texas, or I can say this because I'm from Texas. And when I've had big hair, you know, and they're loud and having a good time. And all of a sudden we I see Robin Robin, would you do this a lot, you know, and I watched him looking up and he was starting to get kind of nervous and like he kept looking up and it was above his woman and sitting across from us and kept looking up the ceiling. And we were going and we all sort of took sneaky peeks and and there's this giant Roach climbing the wall in this super held in ritzy high in San Francisco with this giant rush the rush is that big. It is climbing up the wall to the ceiling directly above this woman's head.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:18 And Robin she's going Oh god, no.
James V. Hart 1:02:22 Yeah, and we're all going oh my god, is it gonna fall? And she starts looking at like, looking at the table, roll it and he didn't want to call the manager over Hey, there's a fucking Russian. And finally it happened. fall right up with her hair. No, Robin falls out he cannot control his laughter any longer. He is on the floor. He is guffawing you know he is sitting with the whole replaces lit up and she's like
Alex Ferrari 1:02:52 oh my god.
James V. Hart 1:02:55 And he's like I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to you. And she stands up and announces to the whole restaurant she points writer at writer Robin says Robin Williams. You're not funny. And of course then the whole Yeah. And he bought dinner and everything else but it was it was a you couldn't It was like a guest kitchen a skit a sketch out of center nightlife. paranoid calm no sound like an old old like Charlie Chaplin, you know, BIT bit, you know, and we're all we watched it play out in real time. And it was hysterical. And also fishy. They left the restaurant but he bought dinner and the manager came out and combined and a big fucking Roach in her hair. To get it out. You don't step on it.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:41 Oh my god, I must have been amazed.
James V. Hart 1:03:45 I'm so sorry. You know, you're not funny.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:48 First of which, of course, which of course everybody knows he is
James V. Hart 1:03:52 and was quiet. When she when she said that? He started laughing Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 1:03:56 because he's like, Oh, this is brilliant. This is I can't write this you can't write that you can't write.
James V. Hart 1:04:02 And to have sat there and witnessed it. It was even like I can't believe it's gonna fall it's gonna land right on her head.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:10 We're just waiting. You know that I could just as you're telling the story my director mind is like shot here. Shout out shout of the close up eyes like you could just you're just like it's a Hitchcock scene.
James V. Hart 1:04:22 It is it is very Hitchcock you know and and of course what what we all says was a roach went up there to commit suicide it had it I'm going to dive into a bowl of spraying it you know and suffocate brooch I'm done with this world. I'm we're out of here. We're Gone. And if I'm
Alex Ferrari 1:04:41 gonna I'm gonna do this right. Let's go all the way to
James V. Hart 1:04:47 whatever if you get tired, you couldn't hold on here with you. He give up
Alex Ferrari 1:04:51 on I'm sure Robin kept going. I'm sure he kept building up a
James V. Hart 1:04:53 backstory on top of the mountain and then put into return and disaster. That's amazing. A resurrection opportunity you're not funding changes. Anyway.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:05 Um,
James V. Hart 1:05:05 that's that now I can work that into a structure lesson. Okay?
Alex Ferrari 1:05:09 Yeah, absolutely. You should absolutely work that into a structure lesson. No question.
James V. Hart 1:05:12 I have a story. I'm sorry if I digress.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:15 No, no, no, I think it's, we it's an amazing story. And it actually works about structure, you actually turned it into a structure lesson as well. Now, I wanted to ask you, well, first of all, I mean, you've written all these amazing movies and and worked with amazing people. But I mean, obviously, the top of your mountain was writing for The Muppets. Obviously.
James V. Hart 1:05:37 They were my favorite experience. I did just under Brian Henson, I just exchanged notes recently on any birthday. Yeah. That was the that was the I guess that's the cat's pajamas or the bee's knees or, you know? That's, I mean, it was totally unexpected. Brian, Brian and I had met during hook. And another book that we wanted to do the Calico was a mandamus magic, which is a Gallico. novolin. Deputy now. And they, he, we've met and like each other. And he came to me, Disney was going to pull the plug on about the dirt around. It didn't like where it was going. And they came to me and Brent said, will you read the script? We're about that we're about to lose this project. You know, and we're having problems. Can you just read it? Give me some feedback. And I read it and there was no human beings in the script. There was no Jim Hawkins there was no lunch on sir. We were all met.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:37 Bob By the way, for people who are not catching up. You wrote Treasure Island, Muppet Treasure Island. Yeah, people might not know
James V. Hart 1:06:44 I mean, I came in and put my orange water with great people like Jerry Jewell and sir bill bought a lot of stuff later, but um, and I read it and said there's no humans you can't make this movie with no humans. You can't have Jim Hawkins be a puppet and, and and Robin long john silver via puppet you can't do it. It's like Lucas when he first did star wars are all robots. You know, you got to have the human being element. You know?
Alex Ferrari 1:07:12 Is that is that true is when Star Wars when he wrote first wrote it everybody
James V. Hart 1:07:16 was CPU Ember CPU and our 2d two they were the heroes.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:19 Okay, right. And then look showed up afterwards. Got it.
James V. Hart 1:07:22 So we would shut it up at my house in the Hudson River, which and and actually Brian's brother lived nearby and we snowstorms and piles of snow. So we spent three days working on the script. And and the reason there were no humans in the script is that Frank Oz did not like to work with children. He's got 12 of his own, but it isn't my work. And so I said, Well, let me write some scenes and see if we can convince Frank. differently. So we wrote some scenes, and they were they loved the scenes because I brought some some humanity back into the story, especially the relationship between Jim and London silver has been a seminal relationship in my my upbringing about villains. I mean, I have a whole thing on villains. why they're the good guys. You know? And so it was a you're able, we were able to do that emotional connection between Jim and john. Keep all the jokes and keep all the stuff in you know, but the funny part was casting the Muppets in their various roles because they are like movie stars. Yeah, I mean, I would, I would never suggest we they are having a hard time casting Kermit. So I would suggest and Brian was it now Kermit won't play that role? He's not he won't be good in that kind of part. Oh, okay. And, you know, what do we do with Miss Piggy? You know, but she had to have just the right role where she wouldn't do the film. But a bigger trailer or something. So you begin to understand that this that this, this world of Muppets is like an archeological dig. They have a history of the way movie stars have a history. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Incredible. And and the people that created the character are the only ones that could do them. There was a big controversy when Jim died if they were going to continue to Kerman. Oh, wow. So and that's what's interesting. I mean, when Frank has his hand goes up Miss Piggy skirt. He's Miss Piggy. Nobody else is Miss Piggy, but Frank Oz. You know. And so that was interesting to see that that the guy JOHN RIZZO, you know, I can't remember the performers name but they were created by the puppet here by the puppeteer. So as long as they were alive, they did the characters. Did you had other puppeteers who came in and did this sort of characters but casting Kermit and casting Miss Piggy was the most difficult part of the of the show. And we missed we may Miss Piggy Benjamin again. We've been marooned on the island and had a string of pirate lovers including London silver, And actually it was fun to watch Frank work on set because he had he was staying character in between takes
Alex Ferrari 1:10:07 did he read it you see
James V. Hart 1:10:09 yes that's a terrible line. Brian Let's shoot it again you know about the ship and and so and Brian and Miss Piggy would have a dialogue you know between takes with Frank because Miss Piggy Same thing with Steve Whitmire, who did Kerman they would normally stay in character between takes unless they took a break and right should that you know shift the shadow. And then when my kids were with me on the set in London and we had that in your they're alive I mean they don't have eyes that don't their eyes. eyes don't move they don't have you know, they're not marionettes, right? No, No, they don't. And we're leaving the set and we let x etc think about a Brian, the end of the day and there's a whole trolley full of all the Muppets hanging and payable on their on their spikes, you know? Oh my god and Julia, who just arrived just to register for film? She was I think 10 then she free tested. Oh my god, they're dead. Yeah, I don't want to see this. I mean, their eyes are suddenly there is of course. Right? So it was and getting to work with juries rule and the whole Muppet Henson team was extraordinary.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:32 Wow, it must have been so much fun working with them
James V. Hart 1:11:34 such a culture such it's such a culture of caring and concern about character. You know, those characters don't change they're like movie stars. No absolutely themselves.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:48 My my my Kermit the Frog I grew up which was Jim and the Kermit the Frog that lives today. The character is the same. His all his principles as him as piggies is the same. gonzos is the same. It bazis is the same. It's they are they're movie stars. But they it's they're they're actually it's fascinating. I just wanted to touch really quickly. You said something very interesting. You believe villains are heroes. Yep. Can you touch on that? Because that's fascinating. I'd love to hear your take on that real quick.
James V. Hart 1:12:17 Yeah, well, villains are how I made my career. And it all started with as a kid when I again, why is why is longines over the bad guy. Why is why is Captain NEEMO the bad guy. You know, I started as a kid I'm gonna wait to make Captain even wants to end slavery. He wants to abolish weapons of mass destruction. He wants to end war. You know, I'm voting for President. You know, my guy is and then you are in any any advanced nuclear energy. So so far I'm getting people's going good, good, good nuclear energy. Well, no, no. And then he destroyed nuclear energy because he knew what we do whether we got our hands on it. I cried. When? When James Mason goes down with a Nautilus. I wanted to kill nedlands and Kirk Douglas for throwing the bottles and having him blow up his stuff. I couldn't figure out why he was the bad guy. Right? Same thing with lunch on silver lunch. And so we're taught so taught Jim Hawkins so much about being a man and being loyal and being a mate. You know, when Jim had a chance to kill, to shoot blown John's team and he's stealing the treasure he let him go. He learned so much from lunch. Same thing with with with Dracula. When I finally started researching Dracula, Dracula was a fallen angel. He wasn't a guy in a tuxedo just wants to suck your throat there was a story. So villains to me are the villains, advanced history, villains, forced society to change. You know, they force us to advance and to achieve new and also they're visionaries. We may not always agree every one of us, Jules burns. The man who conquered the world, you know, the all these guys were visionaries. JOHN, john Galt in, in atlas shrugged. The visionary didn't agree with his politics, but he was a visionary. Yeah, so the villains sort of come jumping out to me like, wait a minute, why why am Why is the villain so misunderstood? And so you know, and then suddenly, we don't have all these are all villains from literature. You know, for me, Jekyll and Hyde is a big one for me that what Robert Louis Stevenson intended? His wife burned his first manuscript. That's the one I wanted to read. Yeah, yeah, she burned it twice. Sure, it reveal too much about them, you know? He but he led it, he led a double life in real in real life. He led a double life with his mates, he would take him to London, give them nicknames, give them identities. They'd horn winch around. Then you come back up to his little Calvinists, you know, so, suddenly, the villain was more interesting to me than the hero. The least interesting character in Star Wars Luke till he finds out he was Father is in. Something's interesting.
Alex Ferrari 1:15:03 You're absolutely right.
James V. Hart 1:15:07 Harry Potter is another kid who's gonna learn bad magic for bar mitzvahs until he finds out who his father is. Right? Yeah. So it the villain is also what makes you special. And I think Bob and I both agree on this is what it's what? It's what forces the call to action which forces a hero to emerge the villain. So the hero, the hero is really indebted to the villain and I don't call them villains anymore as much as a nemesis. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 1:15:32 right.
James V. Hart 1:15:33 The villains me sound like a cartoon cardboard thing in a video game or, you know, tort mustache twirling.
Alex Ferrari 1:15:40 And that's what and that's one of the things about villains that even without a good villain, that the story doesn't go forward. Like you could have that you could have Hercules. But without, you know, all of the the like, well, perfect example in today's age Marvel movies. I mean, Thanos was an amazing villain, and that they built it up over a decade of films and how they built that up to the point where at endgame when everybody literally the entire universe Marvel Universe has to, has to come to fight him all at the same. That's why it's that's such a cathartic moment. But that without that knows, it's just, if it's a weekly and he's not as you know, it's, it's a balance, too, because when you have when you have a villain that's so powerful, that there's no hope that he could ever be beaten, then it's like, why are we watching this? Yeah.
James V. Hart 1:16:29 And that's why Darth Vader when you get Darth Vader's backstory, and that's why Georgia there brilliant job in Jedi of actually getting to see anniken as that gentle old elder man who you can see as being Luke's father, you know, and even anniken I mean, I I do this is just to my students. Why is why is Darth Vader bad? But did he do so terrible? Well, then you go back to the lore and he went to the dark side to save his wife. Yeah, he chose, he chose the dark side, he saved his wife's life. That's love. So that also gives you some redemptive quality of this worse, the script I'm writing right now, another Gallico novel, The love of seven dolls as a horrible, terrible Nemesis in it. And, and slowly began to reveal what it why he's like this. Why he can't stand it or be anything pure and uncut. He has to corrupt everything. There's a reason why. And when you find out that reason why when you find out what that villains Achilles heel is, it's not just a way to kill them, it's a way to understand them, and empathize with them.
Alex Ferrari 1:17:34 Well, like in perfect example. Thanos he just wants to know, he is overpopulation. It's too much overpopulation in the world. My solution is wrong, which is wrong, he's not wrong, how he approaches it is wrong and that's where the villainous aspect is to these characters. But it's not like the olden twisting the mustache to be bad just to be bad there's no depth there and that's what drives a good story. I mean, James I can keep talking to you for at least two or three more hours, but I'm just gonna I'm going to ask you a few questions I asked all my guests and and and then I will leave you on to write more more things.
James V. Hart 1:18:07 All the answers are in here. Okay, www bit hard. chart.com us is a 20 inch or discount code.
Alex Ferrari 1:18:16 So what three threes? What three screenplay should every screenwriter read?
James V. Hart 1:18:22 Wow, Shawshank.
Alex Ferrari 1:18:24 Oh man after my own heart. I'm
James V. Hart 1:18:28 probably godfather one. Great. And not just a transcript of the movie, but you get you know, get the get to publish the public screenplay. I'm trying to think probably Bonnie and Clyde.
Alex Ferrari 1:18:50 Another great one.
James V. Hart 1:18:54 It's me again, with the characters, not the plot, two characters. And I would I mean, I'm proud of some of the stuff I've written. But if someone someone's read, I actually read. Actually, we'll actually have George's first American RPG script. We were supposed to try to finance it for him. Godfather one, Shawshank. I would read some TV episodes too. I'd read some I read some events, his episodes of Breaking Bad. Let's see to show you what you can do in 45 to 50 pages.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:32 That pilot is a genius.
James V. Hart 1:19:34 Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:40 If someone was going to read wonders, if someone's going to read one of your screenplays, if you're like he could only read one of my scripts. Which one is it?
James V. Hart 1:19:48 100 I read Dracula.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:49 Yeah. That would agree with you. Yeah. Yeah.
James V. Hart 1:19:52 I don't know how it exists in some form or not because we we did all that extra work. Also the August restaurant I'm real proud of August 1 of the last time I worked with Robin. I thought Pearson does such a good job directing reading that film. And it didn't get the acknowledgement that it should have, because I should have put once upon a time. It's a really it's a screenplay, right? I used everything I knew about the heart chart, everything I knew about character, everything I knew about structures in that film. And to me, there's a talk about a satisfying ending. Some people are not satisfied because they don't see them together. But for me, is credibly satisfying. He, he accomplished his goal. He brought his parents together. Now I can watch it 100 times and it still gets me every time I get to that part.
Alex Ferrari 1:20:39 Now what now What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?
James V. Hart 1:20:44 Well, the business has completely changed and it's wide open for for writers that way it wasn't for me when I started out. blacklist, inc, inc. Inc. Well, Austin Film Festival, screenplay contest, all of the fellowships that are being offered through Nichols and through Warner Brothers and Disney and if the international screenwriter Association, I think are wonderful. Yep, they've done a lot of I've done a lot of work for them. screencraft, stage 32 these are all platforms that didn't exist when we were trying to start out there was no helping hand. The Austin Film Festival is worth submitting to keep submitting your and your scripts are now being read. They're not just going into the black hole, they're actually being read. You know, you've got 200 readers on the on the on the blacklist that are there to find scripts, that's their job for their for their, their producers, their studios, their networks. They're they're looking that's how my daughter got her first film made was his blacklist. She just read her fourth film and Amazon I'm I'm your woman is Julia Hart. Star girl is Julia Hart. And the n plus the business is looking for the new threshold writers. There, they had it with me, you know, when they don't want to put up with us anymore. They want the new fresh voices who are coming out of not necessarily film schools, but you're coming out of workshops and masterclasses and we didn't have that access. You've also got 100 more buyers than we had.
Alex Ferrari 1:22:19 Oh 1000 probably Yeah, yeah.
James V. Hart 1:22:22 And then it'll change the COVID COVID thing will come and go, not nothing is going to go. But we'll find a way to live with it. And we're already trying to get into production. As soon as production starts. And some of that development moves off the shelf. They're looking, okay. And I think it's a great time to be a writer, especially in TV, we're finally that it is true. The writer has the power and television. You know, they used to say that and then but now it's true.
Alex Ferrari 1:22:50 What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
James V. Hart 1:22:56 To listen? Okay? No, that's I learned that from Francis and a few other people to never be, never speak first in the meeting. And, and listen, and listen to everything they have to say. And nod your head a lot. And go, that's a good idea. Well think about that. make notes. And then go back and press two said whatever. Even if you disagree with everything they said. You know, you go back and you take you look at your notes, and the ones that keep haunting you the ones that keep coming back and bite you in the ass. Those are the ones you have to address. No, but I think listening is the listen and collaborate.
Alex Ferrari 1:23:37 And work can work.
James V. Hart 1:23:38 You don't want it you don't want to collaborate, go sculpt or you know, go do a painting. You know, we're if you if you're not able to collaborate, you're gonna have a hard time. And where can people find more about the heart chart and everything you do Heart, heart heart. chart.com is the website you'll find there. We just put up our for masterclasses that we filmed in Austin last year, they were available for a special bundle. The toolkit is there for download which I'm going to send you one good sir.
Alex Ferrari 1:24:04 Thank you. Sorry, I look forward to that.
James V. Hart 1:24:06 And the chart is a monthly subscription. You can get in and out anytime you want to it's 899 a month. But I recommend that everybody sort of spend time with the toolkit before they try the heart chart. It's a great tool I've just had just in this last week, we had like another 30 or 40 subscriptions based on the last masterclass that I did. And we're updating the we're updating the the story mapping tool all the time. You get a two week free trial, you can go in and play with the examples and see what the other films that we have there. Like us on Facebook, like us on Twitter, and I will be doing some more classes in some online classes in in 2021
Alex Ferrari 1:24:45 Sounds good. James, thank you so much for taking the time out to to share your story, share your information, and talking talking to our tribe. So I truly appreciate it and thank you for all the good work you've done through your career and continuing
James V. Hart 1:25:00 Now you've got to do what you told me you're gonna do now you know about the heart chart so yeah, I'll be talking about it Don't worry about it said you know this is a great I think what you guys are doing a great the podcast is a whole nother network that we never had access to so I appreciate the exposure. Last thing. Just remember when you're down and out on yourself that nobody no director no writer no no actor no producer no costume designer no dp nobody has a job in his business until a writer types the end so as the advice I can give you is go type the end.
Alex Ferrari 1:25:38 Thank you, James.
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John had been a writer in the film industry for 35 years and won the Writers’ Guild award for best script. He had also been head of the creative department for three different studios. He is the author of the best-selling book, “The Perfect Pitch.” He tutored John on how to write screenplays that sell, and all of John’s acting and directing experience gave him the ability to analyze dramatic writing with a fine eye and ear.
In the March/April 2003 issue of Creative Screenwriting (vol.10; #2), John’s deeply closeted script analysis service was outed when he was rated the # 1 analyst in the country. Overnight, he was flooded with work. What an astounding experience! Instead of screwing up his courage to call producers, they were calling him! And there is nothing better for learning the craft of screenwriting than to analyze lots and lots of scripts and explore ways of fixing the distractions. John started getting a reputation as a great script doctor.
As a result, he not only became a script consultant in high demand, but he has also taken numerous options (deals) on many of his own spec screenplays. He is told frequently that his scripts are easy reads and he attributes that to the writing style that he has developed, which he shares with his clients, as well as his stories. Even if producers turn down one of his scripts, they frequently ask for other scripts that he has written. He has been through many development (rewriting with the producer) processes. Taking assignments and doing rewrites have been exciting creative measures of his craft.
Alex Ferrari 0:03 I'd like to welcome the show John Winston Rainey. How you doing, John?
John Winston Rainey 2:16 Doing well, how are you doing Alex
Alex Ferrari 2:18 As good as we can be in this crazy upside down world that we live in today?
John Winston Rainey 2:22 Upside down, upside down
Alex Ferrari 2:25 I feel like we are in the upside down like Stranger Things like I keep telling people that I feel like we honestly are in Back to the Future to in the alternative timeline. Were a bit awkward. Yes, we're Biff. Biff runs the world. Yes. It's just insane world. I mean, there's a meteor coming now and
John Winston Rainey 2:49 Night before the election
Alex Ferrari 2:51 Yes, obviously, because the universe has a sense of irony.
John Winston Rainey 2:57 Well, we're we are going through a massive transition from the third dimension through the fourth dimension to the fifth dimension. So everything is becoming energy, less matter and more energy. We have to become acclimated to that. That's why we are quarantining ourselves so that we can become self sufficient, mentally and emotionally without having to go out and grab and push and shove.
Alex Ferrari 3:25 Well, well, man, I there's definitely something happening. There's no question about it. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime.
John Winston Rainey 3:34 It is very quantum. It's very quantum very, very
Alex Ferrari 3:38 So um, so let's talk a little bit about screenwriting and that process, but before we do, how did you get into the business?
John Winston Rainey 3:48 Well, okay, so it was late at some time. And this young lady told me she didn't want to see me again. And instead of this was over a Thanksgiving weekend, and I thought, instead of crying in my beer, I'm just going to sit down this weekend, write a screenplay. I did. And I wrote, I wrote it longhand on on legal pads, because I didn't. I didn't have a computer back then. And of course, I have a huge background in acting and directing. And so you know, like, I kind of knew what dramatic fire was all about. And a friend of a friend of mine, new Ken, Rod cop, and we got the script to him. He read it. He said, Yeah, john, come on down. And so I was in his workshop for four years. I wasn't in there. Six weeks when he asked me to be his associate, which means the gopher, you know, but he's but I mean, he loved my writing and did all the way up to the day died actually passed away this past year, unfortunately. But anyway, yeah, so I wrote that script. Play that first green play got option, actually. And by Bill Duke.
Alex Ferrari 5:05 I now know Bill. Bill's a good guy.
John Winston Rainey 5:08 Yeah. Very good guy and really, really super intelligent. Very smart guy.
Alex Ferrari 5:13 Very smart.
John Winston Rainey 5:14 Yeah. Yeah. And so I went through a development process with him on that very first screenplay. And boy went to school their school there. And yeah, but before then I had been I'd been a big fan of love The Dramatic Arts, but also Joseph Campbell. The first time I read here with 1000 faces back and God I don't want to tell you, Ben because you know exactly how old I am. But, but it was, it was a long time ago. And it was extra curricular reading, you know, I didn't I just read it. Because it was there.
Alex Ferrari 5:54 It sounded interesting.
John Winston Rainey 5:56 Well, a professor that I knew, recommended it and, and so he wanted me to read it so we could discuss it. And so I knew about here 1000 paces before George Lucas started touting it.
Alex Ferrari 6:12 Well, now you give me a little bit of your age there just by saying that. Now I wanted to, I wanted to ask you in regards to the hero's journey, because the hero's journey has been, I mean, abused in Hollywood now for a very, very, very abused for four decades now. And it has been kind of set up as like that is the only way to tell a story. And that is the only story and everything falls into that story. Where I know by my own experiences and and working in speaking to other other people on the show that that the hero's journey isn't the end all be all it is one and it has a lot of elements to it. But can you talk a little bit about that? Because I always use the example of like, if you throw the hero's journey on the detective story generally does not work.
John Winston Rainey 7:06 Hey, it doesn't because the detect unless the detective has some inner issue that that needs to be resolved before you can solve the case. Because your theme really comes from Well, I mean, caffeine has two aspects to it. And I'm getting a little off subject because you have the your conceptual thematic things like racism, people call that a theme. What it's not really a theme as much as its subject matter. You know, the theme would be how does a racist you know, like take the defiant when the black band white band chained together trying to escape the law. And they hate each other primarily because they're conditioned to hate by virtue of skin color, and that's it period. And over the course of the movie, the story, they realize they have to depend on each other and they come to respect each other. So that inner journey is really the theme, coming to respect. You know, all things all life or what is considered the other. The subject matter is racism. So it's really two different aspects. But back to the hero's journey, you know, Aristotle said, you know, he said, You know, there's every story has a beginning, middle and an end. And then Gianluca dog comes along and says, Well, yeah, every story has a beginning, middle and end, but not necessarily in that order. And so you take a look at momentum, and you say, Okay, so how is that structured? Where's the beginning, middle and end up? It's there is there but you it or you take a look at traffic. There are five different stories to traffic. Each one has their own structure. It's Pulp Fiction, and Pulp Fiction, same thing. Pulp Fiction has three different structures, but the stories are just intertwined. And as yanaka dog says, you know, the the end is sometimes the beginning. There's another great movie that I like even more than Pulp Fiction is called before the rain. It's a Macedonian film written and directed by a photographer, and I can't pronounce his name mucho something or other. But it's a brilliant, brilliant movie that came out a year before Pulp Fiction, and it doesn't same thing. The theme to that is, the circle is not round. I mean, it's just so beautiful because and he does that structurally. He shows that structurally as well as thematically, I mean, as well as the character arc. So anyway, I don't know. So yeah. I don't think I'm answering your story.
Alex Ferrari 10:01 So I mean, so like, I just I just wanted to kind of, you know, bring it to to the audience the question because a lot of a lot of specially young filmmaker or young screenwriters, when they're starting out, you know, they read the hero's journey or Chris Vogler book the writers journey, which are amazing books, but not every story needs to fit in. So if you take a standard Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes story, which Sherlock generally doesn't, it's he's not about changes, he never changes it.
John Winston Rainey 10:29 He's a James Bond type character, James Ryan doesn't change. Ethan Hawke and Mission Hospital, they don't change. The only James Bond movie that actually worked for me, in that way was Casino Royale.
Alex Ferrari 10:44 Yeah, but he changed it he changes in that movie.
John Winston Rainey 10:46 Well, that's what I'm saying. He's got an arc, he has a character arc. The rest of them, you know, they get boring after a while. Yeah, it's
Alex Ferrari 10:53 just a guy, you know, weaponized?
John Winston Rainey 10:57 You know, I think for me, actually, and this is going to shock a lot of people, one of the most boring films that I've ever watched was the hangover. Because not, you know, a lot happens and nothing changes. You know, in that in that movie, the cannabis market now there's no they don't they, they have a really nice Mercedes going to Las Vegas, they come back with a beat to shit Mercedes. And you know, and they find the guy, you know, so they succeed in their quest. But what do they learn? Now, I've had to come to terms of this, Alex, I, you know, because for me, there's no real point in telling a story, unless you have something to say in that story. And that you That's what I'm saying is really not about the plot, the plot is the vehicle, or the change that the character has to make in order to achieve whatever goal that they set out to achieve. And that goal that they set out to achieve is something that they originally were afraid to go after, but some compelling new information comes to them. And this is basic, Joseph Campbell stuff, you know, that the mentor, the boom, whatever, you know, I call it new information. And they say, oh, as strange as I am, I do have to make this emotionally challenging decision to go after it anyway. You know, and so then they do, and they get into the river, the unknown, and an act two, and, you know, and shit happens. And they have to make adjustment, inner adjustments, internal adjustments, until they finally reach some paradigm shift. And they go into Act Three. And, you know, that's the basic structure. Now, let me just say you're talking about new writers. I think that a new writer needs to learn that basic capability and structure before they try to do something really fancy when they do Pulp Fiction, or any power, or you and I think they should stick. This is for new writers. Now I think they should stick with a single protagonist. I generally separate protagonists, which is an archetypal story function story driver from main character, main character is the one that from whose perspective we see the story. And main characters, one who actually carries the emotional theme, thematic arc. They are often in Hollywood, the same character. But they are at times like a Million Dollar Baby where they are different. Right? I'm just saying Maggie drove that story in a Million Dollar Baby. But the Frankie character was the change character. He's the one that carried the emotional arc. He's the one that had to make the emotionally challenging decisions. Maggie, there was no emotionally challenging decision. I want to be a boxer. And by God, I'm going to be the best. And that was it throughout the story until she was hurt. But Frankie, all the way through. Yeah, and there are many reasons we won't get into analyzing that story. But there are many reasons why he was afraid to take her on as a boxer why he was afraid to take Iran again at the midpoint, etc, etc. Am I talking too much?
Alex Ferrari 14:20 No, no, keep going. Keep one It's fantastic.
John Winston Rainey 14:22 But But generally, I think a new writer is to combine those two aspects of character protagonist, which is the story driver, main character, which carries the emotional art makes him a singular character like Danny Kathy and a few good men. He's both protagonists he drives a story. He also has the emotional arc, he has to resolve his situation with his fear of being being compared to his very famous father litigating father and he has to resolve that And, and so he has an ally in what's his name that
Alex Ferrari 15:08 Kevin Pollak?
John Winston Rainey 15:09 Yeah, I think is it Kevin Pollak?
Alex Ferrari 15:11 Yeah. Kevin is or no Demi Moore the Demi Moore and Kevin Pollak?
John Winston Rainey 15:14 No, no, no, no Demi Moore is a conscious character. Right? He's the one yes forces him compels him to make the right choice. But the Kevin Pollak character, he's the one that corrects his his mindset about his father.
Alex Ferrari 15:31 Right, exactly.
John Winston Rainey 15:33 So really, right, what I'm saying there is the protagonist and the main character are the same. You can have in different, I'm a new writer, or someone who's you know, and there's first second third script, they need to, like, make sure they have the basic craft down the fundamentals down, then they can start, you know, playing games with it.
Alex Ferrari 15:57 Yes, the equivalent of a building a shack in your backyard before you go after a mansion or an office building.
John Winston Rainey 16:03 Well, yeah, and also, if you get it from IKEA, you want to follow the directions.
Alex Ferrari 16:08 Yeah, before you get before you start getting fancy, you should probably follow the directions. And then once you follow directions a lot and you understand the basic Yeah,
John Winston Rainey 16:16 you know, I You see, Robin, you see all these bookshelves, right? Well, I actually ordered 12 of those building Bob bookshelves or whatever, building bookcases from IKEA. And so I built one I followed the directions assiduously did I did the same thing with the second one. By the time I got to the third one, I knew what it was, by the time I got to the 12th. One, I could build those things in 20 minutes.
Alex Ferrari 16:42 Right? Cuz you have to have experience
John Winston Rainey 16:44 already. And that's exactly it. It's a craft, it's a craft. And you cannot become the artist until you first of all, have got the craft in hand. That's true of anything. You know, you go to play the piano, you start, you know, you learn your basic chords and scales and, and how to sight read in later on, you know, you start getting fancy,
Alex Ferrari 17:10 yes, get fancy. So So I wanted to ask you in regards to a specific genre film, The Revenge film, let's, I was going to use that as an example. And the revenge film, generally speaking, there is no refusal of Germany, generally speaking, like if you look at the Count of Monte Cristo, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but if you look at kind of Monte Cristo, he, it's not that he doesn't want to go is a he's afraid to go or doesn't believe he could go. But the want it's
John Winston Rainey 17:43 by going by talking about going going to break down break out of this
Alex Ferrari 17:47 event, just generally revenge and going after that, that mission. And because once he gets into jail, it's about not about his revenge sits in the background, but it's about survival. It's about trying to get and then when the moment when the moment appears that he can actually break out even if as miniscule of an idea that might be great. And then that he sees that the the old man can actually teach him all these things. And then revenge starts getting a little bit a little bit more coherent. But it's still a dream until he gets out. And then he finally go, there's no refusal there. I don't think
John Winston Rainey 18:22 well, I, I I understand your point. And, hey, you could argue that he's a, he's a, he's a victim of that circumstance. And he could be giving up, you know, like, there's no hope there's no, right that could be that could be considered as a refusal. But I'm glad you brought this point up, though, because, for me, generally, the refusal of the call is the beginning of the thematic journey. The refusal of the call bridge, you get a call to adventure, we're talking cam cam belly and structure here. For anyone who's not aware of that, me because a lot of people talk about inciting incident this and that inciting incident call to adventure can be the same, but they can also be different, right? And the refusal of the call, for me is the beginning of the thematic journey, because why would we refuse to go after something we want, except for some underlying, perhaps unconscious, like in a few good men unconscious fear, or an emotional armor that we're protecting ourselves from? And then some new information comes along, and then we said, Oh, damn, I've got to go after that. You know, I've got to take that decision. And there are there are places Yeah, I agree with you that there are Successful movies that have no refusal of the call, and I think that's a missing beat that would have enhanced the story even more. Had they had that.
Alex Ferrari 20:13 So what is the theme of a Monte Cristo? Then? Obviously revenge is the theme, but that's not a
John Winston Rainey 20:19 revenge is a Yeah, it's,
Alex Ferrari 20:21 it's the subject matter. But the thing that how does Dante change from I mean, he obviously changes a lot from before he gets, you know, you know, thrown into jail and all that stuff and to the end, but the thirst of revenge is like, towards the end, he realizes, you know, it's not worth it until he's drawn into the final
John Winston Rainey 20:42 battle. Well, and that would be if he I mean, Hamlet, the same way, right? Yeah, Hamlet, you know, he has that speech. In, in Act five, scene one with a ratio, you know, where, you know, just let it be, you know, whatever will be will be case or restaurant, you know, he's watching, you know, they take up your skull, and then they bury over you. Yeah. And, and, and he's shocked. And he, you know, he comes to, you know, there's a Providence is part of the sparrow. And then you're in So, in a sense, it's the same thing. There's another movie too. Oh, yeah.
Alex Ferrari 21:30 The graduate. Yeah.
John Winston Rainey 21:32 You have you have Dustin Hoffman going after Katharine Ross. And you know, he's banging on the windows. You know, any finding you and they run out of the church together they now this is a this is actually a Mike Nichols, Mike Nichols touch, because they rehearse that last bit where they're in the back of a bus. Yeah, of course, of course, is that iconic scene, and the actors were so tired. You know, they they completely beat it was supposed to be a happy ending. But the actors are so tired, got the shot was over. And they just kind of let go, and they start looking at each other. Mike Nichols left that in because it's like, What now? Right? What now? Yeah. What's the point of all of this? What now? And I think it's the same thing and counter Monte Cristo. And what's the other one that I mentioned? Yeah, yeah.
Alex Ferrari 22:33 Well, I forgot the other one. But Kill Bill. Let's use it because that's a very famous revenge film. Yeah. You know, how does? How does kiddo change? From the moment when she starts to where she is? Is that the bride? The bride? Yeah. I think they called her kids and her name was kiddo. I think, arguably, but the bride Yes. The bride. The bride.
John Winston Rainey 22:58 Let's just call it
Alex Ferrari 22:59 Uma. Uma. Let's go Uma
John Winston Rainey 23:01 oh my God. He never did that again. Never did
Alex Ferrari 23:08 that again. So um, so basically, at the end, I mean, that's just such a straight revenge film. There's no Yeah, I don't even remember towards the end if she actually I think she regretted it a little bit. At the end, like she was crying and this and that, that she had to go. I can't I can't. I can't remember. Yeah, she
John Winston Rainey 23:30 you know, I mean, she'd love this guy.
Alex Ferrari 23:32 Right. And she had to kill him because of that. Sorry. Spoiler alert, everybody. It's called Kill Bill. So I mean, sorry. But um, but she did love them but yet still had to to do it. And she didn't, I think towards the end. She didn't want what she got to that moment. I think she didn't want to do it anymore. But I don't even remember if she
John Winston Rainey 23:55 says yeah, but she had to watch it. Again. This brings up Hamlet again, you know, he's not really interested in killing anymore. But he's forced into this into this short bite, kind of short bite fitting thing. charities. And so you know, and everyone winds up dying. And and you know, and it's not his fault, because he's already resolved his issue, you know, with with Claudius. So yeah, and you know, like I said, Bring up hangover again. There are if you are adept, as a storyteller as Tarantino is, some movies aside. I never got through The Hateful Eight.
Alex Ferrari 24:39 I you know what, I'll go on record stating that's my least favorite of his films. Yeah, it was it was I think it was just a lot of talkie talkie but like once upon a time in Hollywood, I thought was well. Brilliant. That was brilliant. Yeah. Well, I
John Winston Rainey 24:52 there are a lot of, you know, Pulp Fiction.
Alex Ferrari 24:54 I mean, he's he he's generally has a really good batting average
John Winston Rainey 24:58 in his career in Glorious bastards I love doing that. Matter of fact, in our book, I'm gonna quote him. But the book that we wrote the dialogue you taught that
Alex Ferrari 25:10 Yeah, the dialogue books he wrote with
John Winston Rainey 25:13 us that I use that open. Thank you. I use that opening scene of the Nazi got into the bathtub. Really? Oh, you seem
Alex Ferrari 25:25 to match. It's a masterwork that that those seven or 10 minutes is a masterwork of cinema. It's Yeah, it is so good on so many levels. it's astounding how good it is. And he has those throughout his career. I mean, he is just such a unique voice in in cinema, there is never been someone like him nor I think will ever be anyone like him.
John Winston Rainey 25:46 Well, he does pay homage to a lot of people that he would that were in the heat that influenced him, or that he was influenced by
Alex Ferrari 25:54 which which is a good it's, which is really interesting, because which kind of brings me to another point, paying homage so if you watch the movie Point Break, which is a classic 90s 80s 90s but I I don't remember because it was during my generations time, like when I woke I was I was a teenager, there was a there was a
John Winston Rainey 26:18 fight in a bar somewhere, right? There was no
Alex Ferrari 26:21 bar fight, there was no bar fight in that movie. There was fights with alcohol around but there was no bar fight. But that movie essentially was taken and re completely paid homage to and fast and furious. So fast and furious is literally a blueprint from Point Break. Yeah, yeah. I feel that's a little heavy handed as far as like if you look at like it's the same other than you just switched out surfing for
John Winston Rainey 26:50 fast cars car.
Alex Ferrari 26:51 Yeah, for car racing, and then Fast and Furious turned into james bond with cars. I mean, it's ridiculous now. But fun. So but paying Oh, Mize how careful Do you have to be because I think as a screenwriter as storytellers we're all taking from everything and everybody. Yes, you know, Tarantino as much as they might be criticized for it. Everything he does is original. He might take from other people, but he just mixes it. He's like a giant mixtape. You know, he samples from everything and create something completely new.
John Winston Rainey 27:24 And and all artists do that. There. There's some famous quotes that I don't that I forgot. But paraphrase. It's like we're, we're all thieves. You're good artists,
Alex Ferrari 27:34 good artists copy great artists steal. There you go.
John Winston Rainey 27:37 Yeah. And yeah, and, you know, I've watched tons and tons and tons of movies in my time. And you know, you don't know. Like, for instance, I don't think George Harrison was consciously copying. He said fine was with his song, My Sweet Lord. But they won the copyright thing, because I think there was like, four notes that were the same. But I don't think he was consciously. But you know, he was such a sponge from using that.
Alex Ferrari 28:14 Something's gonna pop out. Something's gonna pop out.
John Winston Rainey 28:16 Exactly. It will. You know, Dylan used to take old folk songs and just rewrite them. Yeah, just rewrite the lyrics, you know, keep the melody and, you know, that's been done since time immemorial.
Alex Ferrari 28:31 I mean, shit. So as screenwriters, especially young screenwriters starting out, I mean, obviously, read as many screenplays as you can watch as many movies as you can as as a young screenwriter. Could you take structures from older films, and kind of start using them as a starting point to and start? Yeah, I mean, start using them as a starting point to get because it's not even if you start with like, I'm going to take, do the right thing. And I'm going to take its structure, and I'm going to translate it to another language or another set of circumstances or another thing like that. But at the end, by the time you're done with it, it's changed. It just naturally changes unless you're literally ripping off dialogue. And
John Winston Rainey 29:16 you can't you can't do that structurally. I mean, yeah, I mean, songs do this all the time. You have a you have a basic chord structure. And, you know, you've got your basic 1625 chord structure, which in the 50s and 60s was used. ubiquitously. You know, as a matter of fact, I was just doing a song. Oh, I was playing the theme to the apartment. Just yesterday, I think. And it is in the key of F. And it goes f D minor. What was it F. Jose. Oh, yeah. EP D minor, and then what's up with a poor boy didn't have See no see seven a back to app. So it's basic. It's a basic structure but it's got this elaborate harmonies to it and melody to it. Yeah. And you can do the same thing with screenplays I did it with North by Northwest. I took North by Northwest beat by beat and I just totally rewrote the whole thing. different characters, different situations, different locations. Certainly different dialogue. Because, yeah, I know August funnier than
Alex Ferrari 30:31 Hitchcock's.
John Winston Rainey 30:34 Yeah. And yeah, that's it. That's a good place to start. And otherwise, I started just sit down, start writing, and then structure it after that.
Alex Ferrari 30:46 Do you outline first or do you just go?
John Winston Rainey 30:50 Mostly I just go. I just started like, and I have a, something, some impulse hits me. I can. I can tell you two quick stories about screenplays I've written. JOHN Denver, you know, bought the farm back in 1997, I think and my wife and I, a few weeks later, we drove up to IOC. She was a choreographer, and she was looking for music for her next gig. And so I was touring around in the store, and I looked up at the billboards, top 10, top 100, whatever. And john Denver's three Greatest Hits albums. Were in the top 10. And his Christmas album was number 12. I turned to my wife, I said, Why this guy had to die because he couldn't have he couldn't give his songs away the last 10 years of his life, primarily because of marital issues. You know, he married after and he married somebody that was not support anyway. So I said this guy had to die in order to make his, you know, become famous again. And she looked at me, she said, that's a screenplay. So I mean, she just said that I said, What? And so on the way home, we were talking about all kinds of Elvis sightings and things like that. And I wound up writing a story about it over the hill country western star, who was Uber famous living in bel air, and they repossess his house, any he goes up in the mountains to talk to his manager, and everyone thinks he's dead. And he can't get back to LA for a reason I got to get into and winds up on a dude ranch Chevalier horseshit for a living. You know, because no one recognizes him, I'm not gonna get into why he has a major car accident. He's out for six weeks, and they have to shave his head and
Alex Ferrari 32:49 right, and then his music starts
John Winston Rainey 32:51 blowing up again, plays movie stars blowing up. And yeah, and so he has to get back to LA and cash in. But in the meantime, he's finding out who he really is, instead of this facade. Another one was, we owned some land in Iowa. And I was walking back through and 30 acres, all forests and fields and lots of Briar patches, lots of berry bushes. And so I'm out there one day, and there's this huge briar patch, instead of going around it. I said, I'm just going to go through it until I've gotten in the middle of it. And I started getting hung up on the briars, you know, as well dressed. And, and all of a sudden, I couldn't move. And this little bit of panic went through my body. And instant I had this whole story about a briar patch that eats people. And so I wrote that that's, you know, become really popular, you know, in the option world. So,
Alex Ferrari 33:48 yeah, and that I wanted also to touch on that because this is something that a lot of screenwriters don't understand about professional screenwriters in Hollywood, is that I know guys who have, you know, made one or two massive movies like they were big, you know, giant films. And yet, when you go to their IMDb, they might have not had anything else produced with the next 10 or 15 years of their life. But they've been non stop working for all of those times and and their scripts have been optioned left and right and it gets optimal once and then it gets optioned again, and it gets moved over to another studio. And they make a living off of things that never get produced. And can you talk a little bit about that kind of like, underground world that nobody talks about?
John Winston Rainey 34:36 I actually I actually make most of my money, or a lot of my money doing what I call vanity projects. You know, people come to me and they want their life story and on film and all that and your mind is so unique and everything no one lives a unique life. I mean, you talk about structure, our lives are structured similarly. Right. But anyway, yeah, people can They want a screenplay written or you know, a producer will come to me and want a screenplay written. And my spec scripts I've had numerous options on I've got about 15 spec scripts, 1500 ami. And I've had numerous options on them because my writing is very contagious. You know, you start reading my scripting you you can't I there was a story. I was in Morocco, doing a script for a producer, actually. And he was good friends with Ridley Scott. And he read one of my samples. I'll actually the one that I just talked to you about the budget over the hill country western star, which is a basically a rom com. And so he was sitting here on the on the, on the table, and Ridley Scott was hanging with his guy over in Morocco, and not Bangladesh. What's the Marrakesh marriage? Yeah. And he was gonna go to bed and he says, Can I take this to bear with me? You know, he just needed some reading material, something to put him to sleep.
Alex Ferrari 36:13 That's all what you want to hear is like, really, Scott took my script just to go.
John Winston Rainey 36:17 Well, interestingly, he comes down the next morning, he slams my script down on the table, and he says, this damn thing kept me awake till one o'clock in the morning. And he says, Is he fast? And my producer said, Yeah, well, I'm still waiting for that phone call. But nevertheless, the point is that your writing style has to be contagious. It has to be you've got don't get it in the way of your story with your writing style. And I mean, that has to do with structure, character development, and also how you put the words on the page period. So all of those things have to come together. What was the question? Oh, what do I do I just sit down and write or do I? No,
Alex Ferrari 37:01 no, the question was just to talk a little bit about the the the whole optioning and making
John Winston Rainey 37:07 Oh, yeah, yeah, well, yeah. So you can make a whole living without ever being on IMDB
Alex Ferrari 37:13 which, which I've met. I've met so many of those screenwriters, some, some of them literally have no IMDb credits, or like one or two little ones. And then there's other guys or gals who actually have one big credit one monster credit. And then silence nothing. Yeah, but there but in town. They're known as they're doing script doctoring there. And that's a whole other script doctoring. And in that kind of world that dude make a living doing that.
John Winston Rainey 37:44 Yeah, john sales, john sales. Oh, he makes a living doctoring scripts, rewriting scripts. He makes, you know, a ton of money from the studios doing that we're used to I don't know where he is now. And then he'll take that money and he'll go and make his own indie films, you know, on you know, you know, you basically Well, now he doesn't have to find that his own films, but yeah, and melius used to do that as well. back then. He
Alex Ferrari 38:11 was he was he was amazing. Screaming he's amazing script doctor.
John Winston Rainey 38:15 Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 38:16 he wrote, I don't know if you knew this. He wrote the scene. The scene in jaws when they're drunk, right before that whole scene was on the boat in
John Winston Rainey 38:26 the boat. Getting where they get out. That's Milly's.
Alex Ferrari 38:30 Yeah Spielberg Spielberg called him it's like can you do me a favor? And he's like sure. All right, that's he for he wrote that scene like the night before.
John Winston Rainey 38:37 fingerprints all over that.
Alex Ferrari 38:40 Millie's has his fingerprints all over it all the movie brats stuff he touched at one point or another
John Winston Rainey 38:46 well and the thing is is guys like that. You know, if you give them a thank you, you know they're fine with it. Just pay me basically that's what it really is. You know, just I I've got some skill. I've got the craft and you know, I got it down. Just you know, pay me
Alex Ferrari 39:03 is like gunslingers basically you're like, yeah, you're exactly. You're good. You're a gunslinger. Like, how do you how do you clear out this? Do you need me to clear out this outlaw for you in this town for me? I just I'm I'm a mercenary.
John Winston Rainey 39:17 Yeah. IBG pieces are a few dollars more exact have gotten out of Gun Will Travel.
Alex Ferrari 39:25 Yes, no, I remember those. I remember those.
John Winston Rainey 39:28 You remember, Paladin? The Richard Boone character? No,
Alex Ferrari 39:31 I didn't remember that one. I've read. I've seen so much stuff. And especially I worked in a video store. So I saw a lot of stuff when I was very young Jared, you know, I was five years in a video store for all through like before High School and after high school and then maybe a little bit after high school before I went to college. I worked at a video store. So I watched. I watched it. I was watching films at a time or I could literally watch everything released that week. Can you remember like it was like, because they would release five movies? Six movies a week? Yeah, I would watch all of that. That was a moment in time where you could actually do that. Now that's absolutely. I need multiple lifetimes just to catch up with what's right. Now, I mean, you've worked with a lot of screenwriters in your time, what is the biggest mistake you see screenwriter, especially young screenwriters make?
John Winston Rainey 40:23 Other than writing style?
Alex Ferrari 40:25 Yes.
John Winston Rainey 40:26 Other than using too many adverbs, too many passive verbs and that sort of thing. Would you guys be crazy? Or overdoing your dialogue? Another one, I'm listening a bunch of go for. And first of all, a screenplay is a lot like a short story. And people have to absorb that is not a novel. Short Story. Yes. You know, you you have to get in under two hours, because that's about as long as the bladder lasts for your audience member. Yeah, seriously. Yeah. And, and they need to sell more salt and sugar. Yep. In the
Alex Ferrari 41:06 backend? Well, back when, when we used to be able to go to the movie theaters, not so much anymore. So we'll see what we're at.
John Winston Rainey 41:14 I mean, there, there are a bunch of them. And I actually, and I talked about writing style, because I used to say the same things over and over and over again. And I finally just wrote a book. And when somebody wants me to consult with him, I just send them to book, you know, but the other thing is not setting up the emotionally challenging decision that drives the story. I, I don't know if this is proprietary or not. But I talk about emotionally challenging decisions are dilemmas and decisions and decisions of the main character are what drive the story basically. And then you have a reaction from the antagonist. And so they have to reconsider and revise. And so the intention changes, but the object, the objective remains the same. And those decisions are not well set up. And often people will put those major emotionally challenging just decisions off screen somewhere. And you can't do that. You got to put it on the page. And also overriding shame. That's another one. You know, that's a technical issue. So
Alex Ferrari 42:38 you mean to tell me this should be as little whitespace on this on the page as possible?
John Winston Rainey 42:44 As much?
Alex Ferrari 42:45 Exactly.
John Winston Rainey 42:47 Yeah, this is a case in screenwriting. This is a case where less is definitely more but you have to have the you have to have the correct less. In the right words. Choose every single word.
Alex Ferrari 43:02 I mean, I'll tell you when I wrote I mean, I've written screenplays in my career. But uh, but I've written I read I read a both I read two nonfiction books. One was based on a story of my life because my life was very interesting, sir, thank you very much. And it, but I found it so freeing writing a book. Because I did not have to be so easy. I found it's so much easier writing 60,000 words than it is writing whatever the amount of words is in a 90 minute screenplay. Because in the screenplay, you have to be so surgical, so surgical with your words, but in a novel, you could just and that he floated across the screen, and he did this. And you could just, you could just like, paint the picture. You could take a paragraph just to discuss how the wall looked if the wall is really important, but in the screenplay, you've got three words to explain the wall.
John Winston Rainey 44:00 Yeah, no, that's a designer's job.
Alex Ferrari 44:04 Right,
John Winston Rainey 44:05 but how can we make this wall important? There's a character in the story. So how can Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that and the way to do that Alex is you know, I'm a big one for avoiding adverbs at all costs. And if you choose the correct action verb, you will not need an adverb do not need the modifier. Also, never, ever I've written entire screenplays with not a single adverb, passive verb helping verb or passive present tense. And I challenged myself all the time there time. There are times when, you know, I'll spend an hour on a sentence on a single sentence, you know, and and I'm Believe me I'm, I'm not shy about going to thesauruses dictionaries and I'll look all around. So yeah, next to songwriting and writing poetry within a particular form, screenwriting is right up there with those guys.
It's like the Haiku of writing. It is Haiku. If you approach it like it's Haiku, yes, you will get you will get better. Absolutely. No, you cannot you cannot just sit there and, and splashing on the page, you have to, you know, maybe that's good for you to get your story out, then go back and rework that damn thing. So yeah,
Alex Ferrari 45:32 like if you I remember reading Shane Black's early screenplays and the the way he describes the scene, his descriptions were so vivid and so beautifully written, and so concise. It was wonderful. Then I read other scripts like that, literally, it's three or four paragraphs just to talk about like the alley. I'm like, dude, like, you need to move along here guys like I did the alleys. Not that. But in the writers I like the alley is. So
John Winston Rainey 46:00 the alley, the alley is for the location manager location scout.
Alex Ferrari 46:04 And that's something else I feel that a lot of young screenwriters make a mistake in is that they feel that they're almost proxy directing. When the writing I mean, worst thing you could do is put a camera move in, don't ever put a camera move in.
John Winston Rainey 46:17 I just took that note this morning, actually, I was working, I was consulting on it on the script. And I said leave the directing to the director, I said, you got you, you must acknowledge that you've got co creators here, you must lend them the space to do their work. Just all you do with a word is Be as specific as possible. And then you let them expand upon it.
Alex Ferrari 46:44 I mean, it's very similar like to an architect, the architect lays out the blueprint but blueprint. The blueprint is the foundation of everything as you're building the building. There's going to be a couple of shifts here and there. And there's going to be in the in the guy who's paying for it. This isn't Isn't this the way it is in Hollywood, the guy who's putting up the money that the finance this building is going to go You know what, I want to move that wall over there. I want to paint the pink cuz my girlfriend wants or the orange or
John Winston Rainey 47:12 what have you probably do is say, instead of making these, these studs 16 inches, what can we make them 19 inches apart? right? Exactly. It's it's all the time. And then a lot Yes, building code, but nevertheless,
Alex Ferrari 47:26 right? And they'll start doing that. And then that's when the building just doesn't if it all comes crashing down. But that's what happens in Hollywood,
John Winston Rainey 47:34 all the time. Where the structure just absolutely sucks. Now, I'm not a big one to talk about structure up front. Because I want because everything for me comes from character, right? Even structure comes from character because you have this symbiotic relationship between plot and theme. But if all of these elements together don't co here, because a producer wants to throw in because his girlfriend is acting as though she can't do that. Can she do it this way? No, no, we can. No it because it screws up your story. And I'm I'm actually amending my words here. But it yeah, it messes with the story. You can't do that, you know, write another screenplay. Don't use this one.
Alex Ferrari 48:20 Yeah, it happens.
John Winston Rainey 48:22 That's what happens in Hollywood, is they'll buy a property, and then they'll totally jacking around and rewrite them bringing theirtheir own kitchen sink for writers. And no one's communicating with anybody else. It's like, you know, well, I
Alex Ferrari 48:38 mean, it depends on I think the smart. I mean, look what Marvel did it the best as far as like they understand their properties, and they have complete control and this and when they went away from their model early on, and you can see that in I'm not sure how verse you are in the MCU. But the first film, I remember when Hulk came out angley did a Hulk years ago with Eric Bana. And oh, yeah, remember that one? It was a while ago when when the visual visual effects really not know. It didn't work out. Hulk was horrible. But they let the director and the creatives force rewrite the mythology of the Hulk. And it was this hodgepodge of craziness. He really was angry because of what his dad did to him and all this like supercycle, it was like, that's not the Hulk. We, we want to see Hulk Smash. That's what we wanted to see. We want to see Hulk Smash. I don't understand Hulk Smash. It's not complicated, but because all these other people came in. But then from that point on, they took control of their properties and and kept going. But
John Winston Rainey 49:50 yeah, but this goes back to our original topic of is there are there other stories other than the hero's journey, right? In this case, yeah, you know, and you know, I mentioned the hangover and other things like that, where you tell a story purely for entertainment, you know. And I, I had trouble getting on board with that. But
Alex Ferrari 50:17 apparently, a lot of other people didn't because it did very, very well and sponsored
John Winston Rainey 50:23 a lot a lot of movies, a lot of people just want like my brothers. I asked my brother, I said, Why do you go to the movie? She says to escape? And, okay, that's, you know, and that's what I think that's with a large a large demographic is I just wanted to go and let go of my life. What I mean?
Alex Ferrari 50:41 Yeah, absolutely. But if you look at hangover, hangover, I agree with you. They don't really change at all. I mean, there's not a change in the characters. They just don't
John Winston Rainey 50:52 they go on an adventure, essentially. But not only that, a lot of it wasn't funny to me. I mean, I could tear that thing apart, you know, but the funniest part to me actually was when the the naked Vietnamese guy. And that guy was funny.
Alex Ferrari 51:11 He's so great. Ciao. Ciao was great. There it looks so I mean, comedy is always relative. Some people will look at an airplane and go and be Blazing Saddles and get offended,
John Winston Rainey 51:20 like, Well, no, no. Okay, guy you just mentioned two of my favorite, which they're amazing.
Alex Ferrari 51:27 I mean, the airplane is is an absolute classic and so is Blazing Saddles. But there's a lot of people who look like my wife will watch airplanes. She's like, this is ridiculous. Why would I watch that? She's she does not get it. And there's so comedy is also relative. But on a structural standpoint,
John Winston Rainey 51:42 I'm so lucky. I'm still looking for the whacking material.
Alex Ferrari 51:49 Or the the the chanting or non chanting section, which is which is great, but they are Christians. But if you look at hangover, hangover one hangover two and a half or three are essentially the same.
John Winston Rainey 52:01 I don't I quit.
Alex Ferrari 52:03 When I went to see hangover two, which was basically hangover one. But in Thailand, it was all it was. It's just the exact same story.
John Winston Rainey 52:10 But just a bit Alex's because the audience loved hangover one. They love that structure. So let's give it to him again.
Alex Ferrari 52:19 Absolutely. But that same director then wrote directed Joker, which was arguably one of the better films in the comic book genre. In my opinion, I don't know what you felt about Joker, I haven't I haven't seen it. So Joker is basically a taxi driver. It's taxi driver, but with a comic book villain. And he's Travis Travis critical to the point where they hired Travis Brickell to be in the movie. So Robert De Niro is in the movie. And Scorsese was gonna originally produce it, he had to walk away from other products, because he had other projects. But I mean, it was it was so involved. So if you haven't seen Joker yet, you should watch Joker purely because it's taxi driver. That's why people were losing their mind. People were like this is because if you if you released taxi driver today, Peter wasn't that disguised? Oh, I mean, to anybody who's ever seen taxi driver could go, Oh, this takes place in the 70s. It's really I mean, he's not literally a taxi driver. But the themes, the everything. The aesthetics,
John Winston Rainey 53:26 it's like the psychotic.
Alex Ferrari 53:28 Yeah, the, the break the psychology, the psychotic breakdown, the the aesthetics of how its shot. It is so clearly taxi driver, and they make no bones about it. They're like, Oh, yeah, we weren't completely inspired by it was it was a combination of Kingdom Kingdom comedy and taxi driver. It's a mesh of those. Okay. Oh, go watch.
John Winston Rainey 53:48 You've got a lightweight. Speaking of taxi driver. You know, our title of our book is you're talking to me. The thing is, is it's a book about dialogue, how to write dialogue. Yes. I'm being revealed here. That line was improvised. Yeah, I know. It wasn't written.
Alex Ferrari 54:07 The funny thing is I one of my friends who passed away he was the first date. I think it was the first ad or the UPM on taxi driver, and he was in the room when they showed me that. Okay, so you know, he told me the solar He's like, yeah, that was just like the kind of Marty just gonna
John Winston Rainey 54:27 read it. No, no, Scorsese asked De Niro. He says, We need something with the mirror. Can you? Can you improvise something? And change? Oh, yeah, exactly. Did it once. And the gun mechanism didn't work. Right. So they had to do it again. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 54:41 it was nuts. But those are the things that people also a lot of screenwriters also think that like, Oh, that was a genius writing like no, a lot of times they do come up with it on the set.
John Winston Rainey 54:51 Now here's, here's the thing. If I were directing something that I had written, we would first of all have a lot of table reads and I would make sure The script is ironed out. See, because I'm from the theater now. Yeah. And I've done Shakespeare and I've done Sam Shepard, and I've done all of these, you know, things in between. and I would want them to nail down the dialogue. Before we get in front of the camera. I don't want people you know, let's make sure that we have it. And we know what our beats are. We know what our our motives and intentions are. And let's, let's do it right, if you're good actors. I've worked with those actors who say, Oh, I don't want to mess up my creative thing when I would just say go back to acting school.
Alex Ferrari 55:38 Agreed. Actors need but like, like structure and understanding the craft, you need to understand the basics first, but have to have some leeway to play.
John Winston Rainey 55:47 Okay, I'll tell you that I watched, interestingly enough, I don't know how well, Jennifer Aniston is. But I saw some outtakes of her doing the same scene over and over and over again. She stuck to the script. Exactly. But every single take was different.
Alex Ferrari 56:06 Yeah, she just presented it.
John Winston Rainey 56:08 That's that's great skill. No, I think that she's in the moment. I think she's right there in that moment, and that's what what was it? Is it Sanford miser, or somebody who says that? a great actor. No, is Antonin Artaud is, the French crazy guy wrote a theater in his double. He said, a great actor is one who is able to repeat a moment as it for the first time. And that's what I'm getting at. If if the line doesn't work, let's fix the line. But then when you're in front of the camera by God deliver,
Alex Ferrari 56:51 right, exactly. But But with that said, there's also those magical moments that you can't write like in like a Midnight Cowboy in Midnight Cowboy crossing the street. I'm walking,
John Winston Rainey 57:01 walking here, yeah,
Alex Ferrari 57:03 that you can't write that you can't write. And then there was a taxi. He's like waving his hands like so.
John Winston Rainey 57:09 We actually had the same Bible on that. That that was absolutely a lot of people don't know that. That was an ad. And that taxi driver was real real.
Alex Ferrari 57:21 He almost almost ran over Dustin Hoffman.
John Winston Rainey 57:26 Writing character, though. I mean, it was brilliant. It was absolutely brilliant. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 57:31 I know. We could keep talking for at least another two or three hours. So but I'm going to I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read? Oh, God,
John Winston Rainey 57:43 I had no idea. I
Alex Ferrari 57:50 I I don't think three of your favorite screenplays any of them? Boy.
John Winston Rainey 57:58 Chinatown is a good one for me.
Alex Ferrari 58:03 And hang over obviously.
John Winston Rainey 58:06 You got that one? Yeah. China's chown
Alex Ferrari 58:19 if you can't come up with any other ones, that's fine.
John Winston Rainey 58:21 I mean, I I've got so many of them that I don't want to like
Alex Ferrari 58:26 me, it's not gonna be on your gravestone. You could just throw it out three names. It's fine.
John Winston Rainey 58:32 Okay, you know what? Butch Cassidy and back in the day, you know, William Goldman was the go to guy. And, and I constantly quote one of his or explain one of his scenes about, you know, Sundance, not wanting to jump off that cliff, but he has to make the emotionally challenging decision not because he's afraid of dying, because he's afraid of humiliating himself, which I think is just a brilliant, brilliant choice. You know, you know, for an actor to me. You know, that was emotionally that's what when I talk about emotionally challenging decisions. That's one of the things I talk about is fear of death. Is is less than the fear of public speaking or Yeah, or humiliation. Yeah, humiliating yourself. Yeah. So. Oh, god. What? I think you're good, man. It's a good
Alex Ferrari 59:31 it's such a crazy Sorkin Yeah. Sorkin Yeah.
John Winston Rainey 59:36 I wouldn't recommend godfather only because Coppola did his own thing. And I think for a new writer would be you know, it would take them off in a track they can't quite
Alex Ferrari 59:48 well. It's kind of like it's kind of like studying, you know, Beethoven and Mozart at the start at the start.
John Winston Rainey 59:56 Before Yeah, let's let's start with the baby stuff.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:02 Let's Yeah, exactly. Let's start reading hang over first and then we'll go into the Godfather
John Winston Rainey 1:00:08 would be would would be a distraction.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:13 Well, no, no, no, we got him. We got it. We got it.
John Winston Rainey 1:00:16 Well, no, I gave it to you know, I did copy North by Northwest but I totally changed the content, right? Well, my agent at the time he said take an old classic and then contemporize it and disguise it. And then so I had another very close friend say Oh, do North by Northwest. And so I did. And so I think that's a
Alex Ferrari 1:00:44 that's those are those are three. Great. Those are three great starting points.
John Winston Rainey 1:00:47 All right. Okay, so I'll leave that at that.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:49 Now. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?
John Winston Rainey 1:00:54 What advice when I give them? Yes. Well, what you just said read lots of screenplays, watch lots of movies, but read all the beginning books you know and read. I would suggest other than for the first two books I suggest for new writers is Bulger's book. And David tried two years book and read Linda's book to read Linda's making a good script. Great. Yep, read those three you can read the Sinfield book in the in the Michael Hague book. But also in conjunction with those books. Also study Darren Mark's book inside story because it's all about character character character character, DERA and I feel the same, that everything in a in a story comes from character, you name me something and I will take it I will track it all the way back to carry the only thing that doesn't is the outside the story genre. So the mood, the tone, the pace. And a good example of that is,you know who? Well you know who Dr. Anton Chekhov was? Yeah. And he wrote four great plays, you know, a seagull cherry orchard, three sisters and Uncle Vanya, and a bunch of one acts. And he wrote them as social satires. They were social satires and standard philosophy read them. And Constantine Stanislavski. But he says, No, no, no, these are not satire. These are tragedies. And so, and the rest is history. He produced them as tragedies instead of a social, but what I would love to do is take those plays and direct them as social satires. Okay, but anyway, the point I'm making is that everything comes from character except that except possibly genre.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:43 Now, what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
John Winston Rainey 1:02:50 Letting go
Alex Ferrari 1:02:53 Yes.
John Winston Rainey 1:02:55 Yes. Realizing that you cannot. And I actually, my father said this when I was 11 or 12 years old. But I didn't get it until many years of actually teaching piano and also consulting on screenplays that you cannot teach anything. You can facilitate another person's learning when they are ready to learn it. That's good. And, and even then you have to be able to I think the true gift of a teacher is understanding what doors are open that you can enter, and what knowledge can be dispensed as a result that will build upon what's already known. But you cannot teach and you cannot impose knowledge on anybody. That's the biggest thing I had to learn. That's great. In my obsessive compulsive manner, I had to learn to let go of needing to get other people to get something.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:06 Fair enough. And where can people find you and your work and your new book with that you wrote with Linda
John Winston Rainey 1:04:13 Well, the book is on Amazon,
Alex Ferrari 1:04:15 And the name of the book again.
John Winston Rainey 1:04:18 You talking to me? How to write great dialogue. And they can find me at john Winston rainy.com. And what else?
Alex Ferrari 1:04:29 That's pretty much covers and you do swip Consulting, and
John Winston Rainey 1:04:34 I do Yeah, I do. I I yeah, consulting analysis, but those are not the real fun things. The fun thing is just writing a good screenplay. And I do that on, you know, people hire me all the time to write a screenplay, and I'm pretty fast. Alright, and I actually am still not in the Union by design by choice. Because I can charge whatever I want to charge.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:02 Fair enough. JOHN, thank you so much for being on the show and dropping the knowledge bombs on the tribe today. I appreciate it, my friend.
John Winston Rainey 1:05:11 Well, it was it was a joy. It is absolute joy. I hope it works for you.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:16 I want to thank john for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank you so much, john. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including links to his books, you talking to me how to write great dialogue and screenwriting style that sizzles. Head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/093. And if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast.com and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you so much for listening. And as always, keep on writing no matter what. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.
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Today we have a special CROSSOVER episode of the BPS Podcast. Our guest is Derek Kolstad, the genius behind the extremely successful John Wick franchise. An ex-hitman comes out of retirement to track down the gangsters that took everything from him. With New York City as his bullet-riddled playground, JOHN WICK (Keanu Reeves) is a fresh and stylized take on the “assassin genre”.
He is also the screenwriter of One in the Chamber, The Package (starring Steve Austin & Dolph Lundgren). This episode is from the archives of The Make Your Movie Podcast with Dave Bullis available from the IFH Podcast Network. Dave chats with Derek about bad movies, screenwriting, the film business, and working with Keanu Reeves.
Alex Ferrari 0:05 Now guys, today we have a special cross over edition of the bulletproof screenwriting podcast I have today on the show, Derek Kolstad, who is the creator and screenwriter of the amazing john wick. Now this episode originally aired on the make your movie podcast hosted by Dave Bullis, which is part of the indie film hustle Podcast Network. And I had to bring this episode to the bulletproof screenwriting tribe because it is pretty remarkable. If you want to know how Derek was able to create this insanely wonderful world that john wick lives in, and how he was able to get the project up off the ground and how Keanu got involved in the whole ball of wax. This episode is for you. So enjoy this special cross over episode. Without any further ado, here is Derek Kolstad.
Dave Bullis 2:51 Joining me today is Derek Kolstad. Derek is a screenwriter of john wick, and the upcoming john wick to Derek, how are you doing today, sir?
Derek Kolstad 2:59 Doing well, man tired, I can't remember the last time I had a weekend. But those are good problems to have.
Dave Bullis 3:04 So, so just to get started, could you give us a little bit about your background?
Derek Kolstad 3:08 Yeah, I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin. You know, I'm 41 this year. And when I was a little kid in the early 80s, that's when the VHS boom happened. And, you know, people ask me how I got into this. And, you know, a lot of people don't remember but like in line at shopko, or wherever you shop, you'd have a bargain bin of VHS tapes. And my mom would would purchase them and we don't have cable, we could afford it on Sundays, especially Sunday nights PBS would actually show like the conversation of the Godfather, that kind of stuff. And so it's not downstairs, and my love of movies, you know, just began there. And what's really interesting though, is, you know, growing up Madison, Wisconsin, you have a very red family, very conservative, very supportive, like an ally coming home from sneaking into the theater, and they asked me what I had seen, and I'd seen Robocop which any other kid would have gotten into some serious trouble about. But in reality, they they looked at each other after I told them and just said, Hey, you know, we should probably support them in this. And so, you know, being a Midwestern kid though the idea of getting into film was a dream. And so when I went to college, it was for business, but I kept writing and became I worked for Dale Carnegie in Chicago. And what got me out here is my little brother called, and he's asked me how is doing like, broke down and started crying. And I'm not an emotional guy. And the realization was, I had to come out here to see if I was going to fail. It wasn't a matter of success, you know. And so I had my little golf PDI and half the backseat was taken out by a large fucking Dell computer and a CRT monitor and drove out here. You know, I was 15 years ago and apparently 15 years is an overnight success. So that's a little bit of a background man.
Dave Bullis 5:00 It was a great movie to pick By the way, Robocop.
Derek Kolstad 5:03 Oh, dude, dude. Yeah, you know the other favorite story I tell almost everyone I meet I was allowed to see, you know, raise last arc but Temple of Doom was to demon, you know? So my parents went saw it and they got back and I'm so excited to have I had my dad Sit down. Tell me that the movie right from beginning and it was awesome. So three years later realize my dad is falling asleep in the movie and just make up a story. It's still my favorite man.
Dave Bullis 5:32 That's absolute. Did you actually when you saw the movie? When you finally saw the whole movie? Did you go Wait a minute, this is nothing like what my dad said.
Derek Kolstad 5:39 Well, I could it was funny because I could tell the point where he fell asleep. You know, it was the opening sequence in Japan, which is you know, just legendary. And then you have that kind of slow jaunt between the first and second act. And my dad, my dad's notorious for falling asleep in movies, most notably animated ones. And so I mean, some of the stories we all share, is we the mood start, and I'd hear from the end of the hour. Oh, it's animated. 30 seconds later, you heard him snoring. So good guy, but still.
Dave Bullis 6:11 Yeah, my, my dad fell asleep at Star Wars Episode One. And he had like, afterward somebody asked him about the movie. And he was like, I had no idea. I don't even remember anything. So you know. So Derek, when you say, you know, you were you were in college for business? Did you actually graduate with a degree in business?
Derek Kolstad 6:32 I did. I did. And I went, got Business Administration, and then a minor in English. Well, a lot of minors, because let's be honest, it's pretty easy a bunch of minors. And then I went and worked for the family company back in Mesa, Maine, Wisconsin, which is WIC homes, which was a construction company. And then I moved to Chicago. And during this time, I was still writing, but I wasn't. I was writing short stories and screenplays I wasn't really sending them off. I was reading books about screenwriting is just in college, I suffered from insomnia. And the only thing that could actually get me to sleep is putting my dreams down on page, you know, and it wasn't until that phone call from my brother where it's like, fucking, I gotta try, you know.
Dave Bullis 7:15 So when we were writing, were you focusing on screenplays? Or do you actually, you'll focus on just writing like, you know, short stories, long stories or anything in particular,
Derek Kolstad 7:23 you know, I have huge respect for people who write novels, simply because, you know, the screenplay. It's like feigning exterior interior. It's one sentence and you read a great novel, and it's like, holy crap, they're spending time to just craft the world. And what I'm trying to do is, tell a good story that fits in 90 minutes, you know? And so what I loved about screenwriting, what I still love, love screenwriting is, I'm a tourist and fast, but more importantly, I can move from one story to the next. And that's why I like short stories as well. In fact, you know, when I was a kid, I was the guy who was teased at sleepovers because everything scared me. And so as a, you know, as a temperament to that I got into reading Stephen King and Stephen King short stories to this day, you know, are are a massive influence, and I still have them all. Behind me on my bookshelf. I mean, that, that's glory, dude, I can't I want to do what he can do in the short form, but he's the master.
Dave Bullis 8:19 Oh, absolutely. Did you have his book on writing?
Derek Kolstad 8:23 I do. It's one of the few books on writing that I I've read.
Dave Bullis 8:27 So I just what other books on writing? Do you do you recommend? You know?
Derek Kolstad 8:34 Not many. My thing is, like, just write, you know, I remember someone, I don't know what the book was, again, I'm a more of a writer nowadays and a reader. But someone told me once about the 10,000 hour rule. I don't prefer that. Yeah. In reality, like, I look at the stuff that I wrote even like four years ago. And it pales in comparison how I'm writing now simply because I've been doing it for so long, that it's not writing and rewriting especially that's where the skill comes in, it becomes like an algorithm like, it becomes something outside of the English language like you. If you make one change on page three, you know, the ripple effect, you know, to look for and to get to that stage. You just need to do it. So you know, people always like get the bad screenplay out of you in reality is that you first screenplay is terrible. And then you keep writing and writing and writing, rewriting. And at a certain point, you find your stride, not saying that everyone will become a writer, but you get better over time. And the other thing too, is, especially when I talk to college kids nowadays, I watch the films of my grandparents and my my parents. A lot of people haven't watched the films of their parents nowadays, like I'm very fluent in film, but a lot of people nowadays when you hear they haven't seen Casa Blanca are the godfathers if you name them, like you look around my office like Butch Cassidy or frickin Pulp Fiction or Miller's Crossing which is arguably my my Best Film my best. My favorite film. Watching right man? Listen.
Dave Bullis 10:06 What's that movie called? castle? What? fucker was funny? I heard Robert McKee whenever he does one of his seminars. You know, I don't know if you've read story by him, but he always shows Casablanca, like day two, or three or whatever. And he says, has anybody in here truly never seen this before? Or more people are raising their hands. And, you know, he's like, well, well, we're gonna spend the next 10 hours on this movie. So, you know, get conference funny, too.
Derek Kolstad 10:35 Because, you know, you hear when people do their top 10 lists of films, and you find yourself almost rolling your eyes like, of course, Citizen Kane. But then you put it in, and you watch it at minute 30 minute, five, you're like, God dammit. That's good. You know, and even if you're, you know, I know a lot of people who won't watch black and white films, which astounds me, you know, and yet you watch, like, for instance, it's a wonderful life. Everyone's like, Oh, that's a smarmy piece of Hollywood crap. It's an incredibly dark drama. I mean, he's killing himself. I mean, stuff like that. And when I encourage people to watch film, it's like, dude, ask your grandfather, ask your mom and dad, like, what their favorite movie movies was. Because even though, you know, the timing of movies has changed. You look at the Blue House horror movies compared to those in the 60s and 70s. They're sprinting, you know, Rosemary's Baby is really extremely slow. It's genius. But it's slow. But you have to watch at least once to respect what was going on, like, Lawrence of Arabia, you have to see once, I'm not gonna watch it again, it's long, but you have to see it once you know, just to know that everything on screen is real. They really shot that into respect that and learn from it.
Dave Bullis 11:53 Yeah, and very true. I remember in one of my film studies class in college, by the way, I have a degree in business administration, too. And I right, so you and I are very similar already. So
Derek Kolstad 12:03 I gotta admit, though, the BA degree is kind of bullshit. But you know, we got it.
Dave Bullis 12:08 Every day of my life, I tell everyone how it's bullshit. I sit here and go, like, what I still want to pay my student loan payments. I'm like, What the hell did I learned?
Derek Kolstad 12:18 Yeah, I think the big thing about college though, is it really doesn't matter. Like you know, what your degree is, you learn to learn. And I think you know, when people don't go to college and Come on, you're great. If you do to go to college, come on, you're great. But having a college degree gets you into the mailroom, you know, unless you know someone you still need to have that sadly.
Dave Bullis 12:40 And a true a lot of the positions that I see too for like anything if you want to work at the studio, or you know, like for instance Comedy Central, I just filled out an application to work there. And they all want a bachelor's degree, like that's a minimum requirement. You have to have a bachelor's in something.
Derek Kolstad 12:57 You look at guys like you know, Kevin Smith and Tarantino, br our flat men not flashing pants wrong saying they mean they're one a billion mean, these guys are incredibly talented forces nature, and yet, they're one of a kind, you know, not very few of us are, you need to actually have that degree in your belt to get into the industry. Even when it comes to, but when it comes to like screenwriting or acting, they don't care. Yeah, good is good.
Dave Bullis 13:25 Yeah, very true. And especially to cuz, you know, Tarantino, he just took a I mean, from what I've heard, he just got like a two day film course, to get an understanding and when he wrote Reservoir Dogs, that's where he met Terry Gilliam and Terry Gilliam really set him you know, this is what you have to do. And then when he finally got around to making Reservoir Dogs, he was like, prime and ready. I mean, having Terry Gilliam sort of mentor you. I mean, that was just like, you know, one genius showing another genius the way
Derek Kolstad 13:52 Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and I remember reading an article with Django about Django and changed. And he said, the line that only Tarantino can say, and it was I had to teach myself how to make a Western. No one else can say that. I mean, Tarantino is a guy who devours film devours movies and has a respect for the shitty ones as well which you should I mean, you can you can pile shit on. Roger Corman flex, and the stuff that you know, a lot of these trauma is done and yet you watch you like to kind of get it I kind of get it and yet tanti loves it and he applies it, which is huge respect there.
Dave Bullis 14:28 I always heard Orson Welles too loved. I don't know if it's true or not, but he loved to have film parties at his house and he would show like these odd movies and I will be like, What the hell are you watching Orson? And he was like, No, this is this is just something unique and they didn't know if he was like, you know, making a joke of everybody or uses as this you know, playing is this practical joke everybody or he was dead serious.
Derek Kolstad 14:51 Well, that's what I love, though about where we are technical. Technologically. You know, when you think back that when I was in college, you know, 2020 years ago. I didn't have email yet. And there's no cell phone. And the only foreign movies that the video plays had with the douchey ones, like, of course, it's good, we want to get more that kind of stuff. But then as time progresses, and I remember being living in Chicago, and the video placed on the way had a large Asian section, as suddenly you're introduced to chalian, fat and gently and you're like, holy shit, well, how could I not know about this crap, you know? And now, you know, with Amazon and everything else, like, I can see movies like The Man from nowhere, I can see movies like I saw the devil, these ones that back in the day, I might have stumbled across on cable but now you're like, Okay, I get it.
Dave Bullis 15:43 Yeah, and it's very, it's very true to cuz I remember going to the video stores. And you know, just having like, look at different covers and stuff like that. I remember the some of the first time I discovered it. And it's like, you know, holy crap. This is freakin awesome, man.
Derek Kolstad 15:57 Yeah. Well, it's kind of funny when you think back in the day. Everything in Madison was the video station and you'd go in. And I still have a couple of horror titles just kind of emblazoned on my brain because of the whole how horrific. The VHS box looked. And you and I finally seen the movie like, Oh,
Dave Bullis 16:18 my friends. And I used to have this like little game we used to play where whoever could find the weirdest box art. That's what we did. They would have different deals like I think it was it was five movies for five nights or whatever. Yeah. And for $5. And what we do is we find like the, the craziest, like box art and whoever can find the craziest. That's one of the ones who definitely rent and stuff like that.
Derek Kolstad 16:41 What is funny about that is we used to do the whole, like, who can pick out the worst movie, right? So you get two or three movies. The problem with worst movies is they're boring. You know? You've never I mean, the worst movies that are fun to watch are actually fun to watch. When you do that. Let's find the worst you're gonna be going usually looking at your watch going, Oh, god, it's still going.
Dave Bullis 17:02 What was the worst movie I've ever seen by doing that?
Derek Kolstad 17:07 Let's see. I would argue that man skeeto is up there.
Dave Bullis 17:12 And
Derek Kolstad 17:14 they're kind of I think the worst movies I've seen tend to be the Friday night premieres on sci fi. And yet, what sci fi did is they embraced it. You know, like shark NATO. I get it. You know, you're totally making fun of the shit you're trying to, you know, give us years ago. I'll say this, that I've only walked out of two movies. The first one was the road to Melville, which was with Dana Carvey and a slew of characters back in the day. Do you read that one?
Dave Bullis 17:44 Yeah, Matthew McConaughey was in it. And a few of the I forget who the person was. But yeah, I remember wrote Well,
Derek Kolstad 17:50 it was just it was all and then the second one was sliver with Sharon Stone. Because it was like this psychosexual thriller that nothing happened. And every time we had sex, she like cried, and after about 20 minutes, I'm like, Yeah, I kind of miss the sunshine right now.
Dave Bullis 18:08 Anthony Hopkins, he was in Roseville. That's right. That's right. You know, you know, that movie was actually based off of Kellogg.
Derek Kolstad 18:15 Yeah, I know that guy. I mean, the movie is crazy. But that life story is even crazier. Still. I was really close to walk out of frickin episode one though.
Dave Bullis 18:26 Yeah, I remember episode one didn't leave much of an impression on me either.
Derek Kolstad 18:29 And I and part of the reason I stayed is, you know, everyone I was with was a massive Star Wars fan. So they had like the rose tinted spectacles on, but I was just kind of like going this whole thing's a cutscene of the PlayStation game.
Dave Bullis 18:46 When I was when I first saw it, I you know, I forget how old I was. I was like, you know, something's missing here. I I didn't mind at that point in time. I my my brain I didn't have I didn't wasn't into film like I am now you know. But something was was inside was telling me because I never felt this way about the original three, like the original three, like, I'll just watch and like I'm entertained from beginning to end. Episode One. I was kind of like, what's going on? Who's doing Who's this guy? And
Derek Kolstad 19:15 also, it's like, the plot is the is like a political Trade Organization treaty thing. You're like, wait, this is what we're after. But you know that everyone becomes a cynic at some point because I remember seeing Return of the Jedi in the theater, with my family, a bunch of friends and I was the guy I was one of those guys who was a growing number leaving going I think I hate he walks
Dave Bullis 19:41 Yeah, I don't really I haven't got that point yet where I hate the he walks but you
Derek Kolstad 19:45 will love it. Ah, I don't know why it just happens.
Dave Bullis 19:49 Well, Harrison Ford hated him right away. He called him the teddy bear picnic. You're at college. Where were you got your degree. You should writing your writing in your in your spare time. And you know, so where is it that you started to say like, you know, should I write screenplays was before your brother call to call you? Where's the answer your brother college
Derek Kolstad 20:11 I was actually in high school we went my family one on a Alaska cruise we know we saved up for this thing. And I wrote my first screenplay because I love movies on in longhand on a yellow notepad and came back and at a time, you know, we have WordPerfect and I built up a template. And I wrote it and gave it to my mom, who she gave me back my first notes, and they were brutal. And yeah, looking back and reading that first screenplay and senior notes, she was actually being very kind. I think it was just, I was I wanted to emulate what I loved, you know, and I love and I still love movies, you know, and short stories and movies were what I do, but I just want one show anybody you know, in fact, for a couple of years, the cousins, you know, I come from a large extended family. When I got someone's name, like, for Christmas, I would write them four or five stories and kind of bind it together. And that was my gift. I just enjoyed doing it. You know, it was never, it was never work. And even now, like, I would argue that your first draft of anything isn't work. That's fun. Work is the reracked and making 15 people happy and keeping it afloat, you know. But to answer your question, man, I just, I watched so many movies, and it gave me so much joy. I wanted to emulate that.
Dave Bullis 21:39 So, you know, a little feedback. So I moved to LA and then you you start writing again. So like what was your first, you know, professional screenplay that you would call it, you know, that you actually were using, as soon as I get your foot in the door, so to speak. And as far as
Derek Kolstad 21:59 the first one to get my foot in the door, I was called the wayfair. And it was a it was a sci fi thriller in the vein of matrix by way of the shining what's called and my two leads were African American. And I got a bunch of movies. I mean, got a bunch of meetings. And they were surprised because I'm a six foot two white dude with red hair. You know, they thought it was something else. But I was wanting to see Denzel Washington and who's Murtaugh? I can't remember his name right now. From
Dave Bullis 22:30 Danny Glover.
Derek Kolstad 22:31 Yeah, I wanted them. I wanted them paired up, you know. So got a lot of meetings. And, you know, what happens is, I was used to the, you know, the professional world, but you move out here and you get involved in the industry. It was different. And it was hard. And I just kind of I stepped away for a bit. And then I stepped back and I did a couple of you know, what would you call them direct to DVD or VOD movies was the package and one was one of the chamber. And they were hard, simply because you look at you look at the package. They had like 12 days to shoot. And you have very little money. And you have people who don't care because they pocketed their paycheck and other people who did care. Because it was a movie we known as movie they were part of. And so after, after those two, I was close to quitting again, because to pay the bills. Even with those I was doing a lot of nonprofit stuff like doing videos and websites for NGOs and like, and it wasn't until I wrote this wrote the screenplay called acolyte, aka simple man, that Sonia, who's we lovingly refer to as a script pitch, because she's the first line of defense for quality. She read it, and she said, I think you should try again. And a buddy of mine, Mike Callahan, who was a producer on those two titles I mentioned, introduced me to Mike Goldberg and Josh Adler were a new wave at the time. And they saved me, you know, everyone in their life at some point has individuals who saved them professionally, and those two saves me and they brought me to where I am today.
Dave Bullis 24:17 So, you know, just to dig a little deeper into the script, Eric, when you were writing out You You You told me you don't you didn't see a lot of screenwriting books. I don't know if you if you had read them at that point. But do you did you subscribe to any sort of of you know template, whether it's you know, enter if you read solipsistic Syd field screenplay, or save the cat by Blake Snyder,
Derek Kolstad 24:39 which I did. The cat I didn't say the cat that was great. I haven't read anything by Sinfield. But uh, I think my big thing is, when I was a kid, I was a my whole family were ravenous readers. You know, I would probably read when I was in grade school, I read a book a day, just because you know, I love I loved reading. And I've always been imaginative. But when you read and see where other people's stories go, it's awesome. And my favorite authors at the time were Alistair MacLean. You know, and Dashiell Hammett, and Tom Clancy, and then when I was in high school, it was shipped CIT who wrote the firm.
Dave Bullis 25:21 That was
Derek Kolstad 25:24 crap. JOHN Grisham.
Dave Bullis 25:26 Yeah, it's very, it's on my bookshelf behind me, I could just turn around.
Derek Kolstad 25:29 But a lot of like, especially when we play, you know, hearing of guns of navarone. And what I loved about his stuff is if you look at, for instance, what's the movie? Ronin did it best is? You know, at one point, Max says, ask the question, Do I know you by way of the germ or something like that? It's never addressed again. But by just by having that one line, the world kind of expands a little, like a little bit bigger, and asked him a claim. And Hitchcock especially, they would have these lines that made their their movies seem bigger and more complex than they were, when in reality, they were very simple. You know, you take john wick, I mean, it's a revenge story, but he's not. You know, I'll let people argue about it. But it's more than just the dog. You know. And I think the best movies are that it's more than just the sled, you know, Rose, but it's more than just the ring. It's more than it's it just, it hints at a larger purpose. And I think by not answering what that larger purpose is. That's where the movies I love come into play.
Dave Bullis 26:39 Yeah, and I know exactly what you mean. You know, in in john wick, you know, it is more than when they, when they do whatever happens, the dog. I don't know, if anyone who hasn't watched it yet. I probably should stop now and watch it, and then come back. So I am going to be talking about I do want to delve in deeper to the movie. But be at your I agree with you wholeheartedly. And you know, it isn't I always am fascinated when I ever, you know, talk to an accomplished screenwriter, like yourself, Derek, who, what they've read, and what method methodology they subscribe to. Cuz some people swear by, say the cat, and I've had others here on the podcast who say, Don't ever even read it, keep it away from you at all costs?
Derek Kolstad 27:17 Well, you know, everyone functions differently. everyone learns differently. I don't know, like, people ask me, like, where did these ideas come from? To be honest, I don't know, a lot of it is, you know, what I've read, and who you are and where you are, and where you see and how you see it suddenly comes into play. But what I tell everyone is, as soon as you've finished a screenplay, write the first page and the next one. Because it's kind of like, you have to keep that flame stoked, or else a lot. For me, personally, I've talked to other writers is, when I finished a screenplay, it's kind of depressing. You know, because you've been with this story. And now it's done. You're like, shit, you know, you you are crafting this world. I mean, they hand it off, you have to start the next one, or else you know, for some of us, you know, you know this, when you talk to writers, I understand a great deal why people turn to the bottle, or turn to the needle or turn elsewhere. Because when you get to the end of that novel, bring you the end of that screenplay, or even a short story, you feel very alone. But if you keep it going, you feel very alive.
Dave Bullis 28:26 So Derek, I want to ask you, are you? Are you a part of a writer's group of any kind? I mean, mean? Like, do you have like a group of that you meet with me once a month just to exchange, you know, whatever you're working on?
Derek Kolstad 28:36 I actually I don't, you know, Sonia, is very key. She comes from a house of readers as well. And so between her and Josh and Mike, they tend to be my readers. And but what I am a part of is, you know, a guy named screenwriter named Matt altman invited me to his screenwriter forum on Facebook. I can't remember what it was Josh invited me anyway. And what's really cool about that is the first thing I want to do until I, until after the first week, I realize it's just a bunch of people encouraging each other. And I think that's incredibly important. You know, to have that group of people that when you have a question to ask, they're excited to answer because you were excited to answer them. And I love it.
Dave Bullis 29:25 Yeah, I'm a part of a writer's group right now. We we started about two years ago, when it was a will. A friend of mine got inspired. Because we were watching the Oscars, and Tarantino gave a speech about Django, and it just sort of hit me like a lightning bolt. And I was like, holy crap, why don't I just that story of writers group with some of the people that I know in the area who I trust, and just see what goes from there, you know? Yeah,
Derek Kolstad 29:49 right. And that's the thing though, is like you I'd argue almost in every capacity, you can't be a solitary person. Even though I'm happiest alone. I'm happiest alone with my computer. No music on and just I love that. And yet I know if I stay within that bell jar, I'll get worse because I have to have those outward influences to make what I do better. And, you know, those who writes, I'd argue, you know, seek out even on Facebook or any other site or even locally, people who think like you, because a lot of things that you worry about, they do too. And that's important to actually connect on.
Dave Bullis 30:28 It's a very good point. And so, you know, as we know, we talked about writers groups and everything like that, you know, a little later, I wanted to ask you another question. Sorry, sorry, for the bad segue. But I, I have a note in front of me, I want to ask you say after, afterwards, but you know, as we're writing, you know, I, you, you, you had the May fers, you, and then you I assume now, once you were done that you started your next project. So what was your next project to that?
Derek Kolstad 30:58 I don't know. He's, here's the thing is I write, I write a lot, and I write fast, you know, and, but a lot of times too, and you might have been the same place, like a lot of times write the story to get it on my head. It might not be good, you know, but at the same time, like, it's haunting me that it's still in there. I think I think of stories as people in line at the bank, you know, if it's 15, deep, you're pissed. But if it's 3d be fine, you know, so I try to get those 12 out of the way. But I would argue that acolyte, which is, you know, making the rounds again, that one got me on the radar, and it was john wick. That made me may be able to say that I'm a professional screenwriter now. And you know, what's really fun about the john wick process was, I'd written it, and it was originally entitled scorn. And the character was in his early 70s, because, again, I loved the movie, Ron, and I thought, how cool would it be to grab like a comedy Jones or a, you know, a, you know, just an older actor, and do an action piece that made sense, because, you know, I just wanted to see that the dog was like 15 years old, the wife had passed two years ago. So my, my agent at the time, Charlie Ferraro, well, you know, but over UTA, he called me after the screenplay and went out and he's like, we've got like, three or four offers. And I'm not going to tell you the numbers, but I really think we should take the lowest one because they want to make it now. And you know, you got a great agent who is looking at the long game, you know, it's more important for me to get an okay payday and a made movie than a million dollars and no man movie, you know. And so, they set it up with basil monic, over at Thunder Road. And, you know, we developed a back and forth for a while, and then he went out to directors. And on a Friday afternoon at like, one o'clock, Keanu Reeves called basil. And he's like, Hey, man, I heard about this screenplay. I really liked to read it out. Can you send it over? So they couriered it over? And at 430 Keanu Reeves called back and he said, I want to do it. Now basil called me again. And I grew up with a guy. And I was I was, I was excited. No, because this is a very violent movie. And I'd love to see him do this again. And the first time I went over his house, I walked past his den. In his desk, I shoot, you know, like 200 screenplays. This guy's hobby is reading screenplays. And in that moment, it was probably the most humbling I've ever known going. Holy shit. I was one of those who picked it, you know? So that's how I want Canada and honestly, the title came about because Canada would not refer to it as scorn. You'd always refer to the project as john wick and it stuck.
Dave Bullis 33:44 You know, I, by the way, did you actually get to meet Canada? Oh, yeah.
Derek Kolstad 33:49 Yeah, I mean, Canada is a incredibly bright cat. I mean, you sit down with anyone and their first two notes. You're like, man, oh, shit. He got to his third note. I was like, damn it, that's better than what I had in mind, you know? And so he was. We spent a ton of time together on every character in every scene outside of his own. And he is equally responsible for what's up on that screen. I mean, Chad, Dave, basil, Erica, and I mean, this is an awesome production crew. But at its heart and soul, it's Canada because Canada loves the character. And I can't you know, honestly, I'm not pandering. You can ask around. You've probably heard stories, but he's a genuine dude. And he's, you know, for instance, when we shot in New York, he got to know all the guys at the coffee shop, because he would join them for their smoke breaks. And I was last day it was like saying goodbye to your best friends at camp. And you don't see that a lot with especially guys of his caliber.
Dave Bullis 34:50 Yeah, I've always heard that he is an absolutely awesome guy.
Derek Kolstad 34:53 Oh, yeah. In fact, you know, my, my most surreal story like something like that. Nice guy, but I, I like being alone. He everyone knows his address out here. You know the
Dave Bullis 35:06 little little
Derek Kolstad 35:08 buses that go by with tourists. They stopped by his house and you know all that kind of stuff. My favorite was one day we're working on john wick. His doorbell rang and he's got a little you know, you know, it's like Who's there? And this woman says, Hi, my name is so and so from Boise, Idaho or something. Huge fan of yours or just wondering the the picture and he's like, okay, she goes outside and hangs out with this teenage girl in her family for like five minutes taking pictures then comes back in. Like who does that? That's, it's unbelievable. It's awesome. But that's the kind of guy he is.
Dave Bullis 35:44 Yeah, that is absolutely hilarious. I mean, I don't know if this is true or not. But I saw that apparently, he gave his matrix two and three money away to the special effects guys. I don't know if that's true or not, but it is
Derek Kolstad 35:55 true. And the other thing that I thought was really cool is because you know, Chad was his stunt double in the matrix. He can Oh hired who's the guy who makes the custom bikes motorcycles that Jesse didn't know. I'm talking about?
Dave Bullis 36:12 Yeah, it was Jesse James for a while it wasn't it
Derek Kolstad 36:14 was I think, I think it's Jesse James. But like, Kanno as not only do they give away his bonus money he had everyone on the stunt team made customized motorcycles that were delivered by Jesse James. and stuff like that, where you know, you don't have to do that. And yeah, you could argue that he's a multi millionaire, whatever. But again, he's just he's a unique and genuine, you know, generous man.
Dave Bullis 36:41 And it's no, it's absolutely awesome. And, you know, for him to get into the john wick character, you know, when you finally saw the movie, and you finally you know, saw everything playing out, you know, what, what were your initial thoughts when you finally saw his finished product?
Derek Kolstad 36:54 That's a great question. Because we, when we saw the friends and family, you know, that like the first cut in the movie with I had no idea I because when you get to a point and rewriting, you're not seeing words anymore, you're just seeing kind of numbers, if that makes sense. And so when we saw it, I remember looking over it, it's Sonia, first join. Was it good? Like, I didn't hate it? I didn't I didn't know. And she was and she by her expression. I know, it was, you know. And the moment that hit home for me is we when we did our initial screening at the dome out here at the arclight. We're doing a q&a afterwards and said I don't it's 700 seats, and it is a pretty big forum. But I you know, I showed up and I didn't watch the movie, because at that point, you'd seen it so many times. But I scan the audience to find the people who don't want to be there. And at about minute 20 everyone would have this huge grin. And you know, my favorite movie going experience in my life. And I tell almost everyone I meet is when the raid came out. Have you seen the ride? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay, When the rain came out, I love the trailer. And I love to Meranti which are think that's mainly when the movie made before that. We walked into the theater with the arclight here in Pasadena and it's a smaller theater like 130 seats, or even maybe even less. And if you look at the audience, it was every sex every age, every color, every creed. It was weird. It was like a serial killers Daydream. It was bizarre. Like, if you ask people what are they here to see, you know, but we sat down it was sold out. And when the reverse door guillotine happened, I leaned forward and my seat and looked around like you did when you're 12 years old. At the end of the I was a 17 year old Korean man who's doing the same thing. And he pointed at me and mouth.
Dave Bullis 38:44 Did you see that?
Derek Kolstad 38:46 Oh, and when I watched people watching john wick, especially during that house invasion, and to see a guy who's 68 years old lean for as chairman around that may my MA my life man, you know, cuz that's, that's what that's what I wanted to bring out of people. And so I want to bring on people now, you know?
Dave Bullis 39:05 Yeah, it is phenomenal with that, you know, movies can bring people together like that.
Derek Kolstad 39:11 Especially what I loved about a john wick process or even release was the number of older people or, you know, again, yes, action movie, but it's got a huge female fan base. Just because, you know, a lot of people will say, you hear the term grounded, which means deep, elevated, which means good. You know, it's like I want to make an elevated horror, like we you know, we want to make a good horror or good action piece. And what I loved about the john wick process is from this, the original spec of the bones and the muscle mass remained the same. It was just the skin and the hair that was massaged in by everyone involved. And again, Thunder Road and the directors and Kiana about Lions Gate. They just, you know, at any point, any production, everyone hates everybody because you're just tired and yet when we do That q&a following that you just saw the joy in gone. You know, it's, it's a major miracle to have a movie made. It's even more so to have it be anything good or let alone critical and financial success. So I use the term a lot like I'm humbled and I am, you know, because, you know, you look at all the other stuff I have on my platter, it's It's horrifying, because you're like, Can I can I can I do what I just did? We'll see.
Dave Bullis 40:27 And speaking of that, you know, I saw john wick, too, was just announced.
Derek Kolstad 40:30 Yeah, yeah, in fact, I mean, he has got the latest draft his script, and we're going to be talking about this Sunday. He loves it. I mean, the body count is probably three times bigger. And that what I love about piano too, is you look at a guy who is he 5051. I don't remember. But he wants to do. He hates when people refer to what he does his stunts because it's not it's him. He's really doing this stuff. And when you look at that movie, and try to copy what he does, I can't 12 years younger than him, it's like, I can't do that. And yet he beat the shit out of himself. And he did it with a grid. And he is kind of like, you know, he sees that, like, I I love that man's workout.
Dave Bullis 41:16 And that, you know that that's awesome. And that's indicative. Everything I've always heard about Kiana was that he is, you know, a guy that's willing to go the extra mile, you know, and so when so I want to ask you is Derek is? How, from what point did you start working on john wick? Two? Did you know that? I mean, did they did they immediately greenlight it and say, Get to work on it, Derek, or did you start working on it already?
Derek Kolstad 41:39 No. I mean, I, I hadn't started working on it. Because when you start when you get a movie in production, your life is rewrite hell, and it's just, it's continual. And what I learned too, is when I was out in New York, on the shoot, it was hard for me to do anything else. Because every 10 minutes, even though you're doing very minimal labor, you have someone coming in asking, Hey, what's the nurses name? You know, the hospital, like I, who gives a shit, but, you know, they came to me for that. I spent I spent about five weeks just playing civilization five on my laptop, because I couldn't, I couldn't work on anything else, you know. And yet, you know, for a couple of days, every week, Kiana would come back, we'd have lunch, and we'd lunch with a buddy of mine named Todd, who, you know, he does all the, the, we call it all the artwork, you know, all that kind of stuff. And canowindra asked me is like, so you know, where do you see john going next, you know, how many have you seen in your head? And I liked him. I was like, I got seven. I got seven of them. And he laughed, and I pitched him two and three and four. And you could see him kind of not grow pale. But go Okay, let's just focus on the next one. All right. So I didn't start it. And to be honest, it's even in you know, even with the greenlight, we've we've chaotically gone between different storylines. And yet, what we've remained true to is, I don't want to look at it at it as a sequel, I want to look at it as you know, john wick chapter two, because what the Fast and Furious did so well is after the third one is they weren't sequels anymore. They were chapters, and I think those are the best. Those are the best franchises to have, you know, I would you know, Empire Strikes Back is not a sequel is a chapter, you know, most sequels or remakes are the first one. And with this one, you want it to be unique, but familiar, you know?
Dave Bullis 43:38 Yeah. And that's a great way to put it to different chapters.
Derek Kolstad 43:42 Yeah, I mean, and that's why you can't help but respect about the Fast and Furious movies, even if you don't like them. Each one got better, you know, at a certain point. And, you know, people ask me what I watch and like, I gotta be honest, I haven't seen it yet. But you know, I'm gonna love Mad Max. I mean, I've been watching that trailer every day on a deafening TV screen with my arms out wide grinning, because that's what I want to do, you know?
Dave Bullis 44:08 Yeah, everyone I know who was seen as not that. I haven't seen it yet, either. Yeah, did you see fast, furious seven.
Derek Kolstad 44:16 I'm really behind on everything. And you know, what I've learned too is when you when you write like this, or you get to this, you know, degree of success, I would argue, I don't, I don't like going to the theater. Simply because I'm alone most of the time. And when you sit down with a bunch of strangers, it's a bit of anxiety. And you're watching a movie and when you find yourself not liking it, you're suddenly reminded that people don't like what you do. It's weird. You know, I like it. It's It's weird. I mean, I love movies, man, but I like him now in the privacy of my own home.
Dave Bullis 44:50 Did he teach his own you know, and and sometimes I I totally get what you're saying because I sometimes just like to watch movies in my own home too. That's why like when it follows was coming out and they were like, oh, by the way, we're gonna do VOD the same day as theater. I was like, go good. I can just stay home now order a pizza, and I go watch it follows at home and they pulled out the VOD. So I ended up, you know, because it did better in theaters than they expected it was going to do. Yeah. So now I, I've pulled up Netflix and watch or watching something else.
Derek Kolstad 45:19 Well, it's like the event movies. I, you know, I go see in the theater. And to be honest, my favorite movies to see in the theater are the ones that are aimed directly at kids. Because, you know, the cynicism really hasn't sunk in, and to go watch, like, you know, anything by Pixar, you know, are a lot of Disney stuff, and to look across, and, you know, when we saw the movie, Frozen, it was a couple of weeks out, and the little kids in front of us were singing along to every song And in that moment, like, you could be irritated, oh, man, or you can go like, that's movie magic. You know, these little kids love the movie so much. They're singing along and you know, in this day, that was all that's love that memory.
Dave Bullis 46:00 And, you know, that's what movies do. They help me give those memories. Yeah.
Derek Kolstad 46:04 And I mean, you think of the movies that make you cry. I was a little kid. I mean, I wept a frickin Fox in the hound. You know, I wept when he came back to life, you know, then as you get older and older, it's always it changes like what affects you. I think the last movie I cried in was big fish of all movies. Like I was dating Sony at the time. And it's, you know, any kind of father son by any story gets me. And when he tells his father, the ministers breaking down, I was a blubbering mess. And it's like, you got me, man. Congratulations.
Dave Bullis 46:40 Yeah, man, what's
Derek Kolstad 46:41 the last movie that made you cry?
Dave Bullis 46:43 That made me cry? Yeah. I'm not even sure.
Derek Kolstad 46:48 Yeah.
Dave Bullis 46:51 That's a good question. I have to think about that. Derrick.
Derek Kolstad 46:54 My favorite was I went to go see Wally. And I would argue the beginning of Wally's one of the best in cinema, because it just showed you true loneliness. And as a writer, you'll know that you tap into loneliness. And at the end of the island, my buddy JC it's, there's a quiet moment. I just hear I hear quite tears from his eyes like goddamnit Pixar, you got me again.
Dave Bullis 47:21 They are phenomenal at that.
Derek Kolstad 47:23 But they respect the process, man, they take their time.
Dave Bullis 47:26 Yes, they there's so many good points about Pixar that like of what they do with their stories and how they structure them. And the characters and the and everything you know, and it's just, that's why there's so many. I mean, if you go like speed of screenwriting books, if you go like, look online, there's so many screenwriting books now about like doing it the Pixar way, whatever, you know what I mean? Yes, because you know, they are the guys you want to emulate.
Derek Kolstad 47:51 But also, you know, I think the best filmmakers Love, love their characters, you know, in the Pixar movies, you can tell that they love their characters, even the bad guys, you know. And I think that's important. I mean, what's been great in developing john wick, too, is we love john wick, you know, I mean, he was the Baba Yaga. He was the devil. And there may be a bit of that still inside of him. But there's something about that you love, you know. And the best movies are either the ones where everyone hated each other on the set or loved.
Dave Bullis 48:24 Yeah, and I heard there's a lot of frictional madmax it so Oh,
Derek Kolstad 48:27 yeah. Well, did you read that article with Tom Hardy hardy said, as soon as he saw the movie, he apologized to George. Yeah,
Dave Bullis 48:35 that's that's what I saw. And then I saw apparently like it at the Cannes Film Festival. They were like, he apologized for some of his behavior or something, or apparently something. There was some friction about something.
Derek Kolstad 48:45 Well, you know, and that's the thing about the industry that a lot of people don't understand until you really hear is, you can we can bemoan the fact that stars can be odd people who are assholes from time to time, but I do not envy their position. I mean, especially when you see it firsthand how people treat them. And I wouldn't I can never live in that kind of world, you know?
Dave Bullis 49:12 Is it really? Do you ever see anyone ever like trying to treat Kanto bed?
Derek Kolstad 49:17 No, it's not a matter of treating them bad. But it's, it's a matter of going, Hey, I recognize you from all your movies. See, I say we're buddies now, you know. But like when he's having dinner and just having people come up, and, you know, continuously come up to them. I don't get that, you know, New York is different. And I'd argue various sections of Hollywood are different simply because they're used to it and it's a different culture. But when you have you know, people from the Midwest, where I come from, you have two kinds, the kind of comes up to Canada goes, Hey, I love your work and then move on. And then it's the or the Hey, I love your work. We're friends now. Right?
Dave Bullis 49:57 So do you have a lot of friends in the Midwest, calling you They'll be like, hey, Derek, you sold a screenplay. I have a screenplay idea. Do
Derek Kolstad 50:04 you know? Not really, because I, I'd argue one of the greatest things about the Midwest is you're instilled with a work ethic. But more importantly, it's like one of my best friends out here is Austin Bryan, he played a little kid in Last Action Hero, you know, his Lawnmower Man, and all that kind of stuff. And he's a very successful photographer now. And he was kind of stressed one day when he was going to meet my cousin, who was a big fan of his. And my cousin, Joanna, came to a party, she walked up to him, shook his hand said, Hey, I really love your movies. And I went to the kitchen to start cooking something I don't know. That's, that's what I grew up with. And I think that's awesome. But every now and then you have people come out of the woodwork, of course. And that's just kind of nice Facebook is you can ignore them. And yet at the same time, like, the reality is no one helped me, you know. And what I mean by that is, of course, people helped me. But when it came to this, to getting into the industry in the screenwriting, it was years of incredibly hard work and work for free to get to this point. And yet, I kind of wonder, would I be the same guy had the success happened at age 30? Then 40. Hope so. And so a lot of times when students reach out to me, or people reach out to me, those conversations tend to be very healthy, because they're grounded. You know, I'm, I'm a screenwriter, man, the crazies don't come to me.
Dave Bullis 51:30 And sometimes, Derek, do you have annoying people to ask to be on a podcast?
Derek Kolstad 51:34 You know, what I what I love about podcasts, though, is this medium has given so many people like yourselves an opportunity that didn't exist 10 years ago, you know, I love that. And I mean, who knows what the next generation is gonna, you know, face as well. But you have the opportunity to be and create and manage your own brand. And how cool is that?
Dave Bullis 51:56 Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, and I think the next generation is gonna be robots are just gonna, are gonna call you and they're gonna interview you, and then, you know, just whoever's around, be listening to it.
Derek Kolstad 52:07 Let's see, that's what I like about podcasters though, is, you're not, you're not a cynical bunch. I mean, you're doing what you love. You know, it's one thing doing an interview for the international press. It's nothing doing this because we're, we're fanboys to a certain degree of films themselves. You know? I'm, I have not seen the most movies, any, any person I know. yet. When I see a fellow person who loves a certain movie, like, you know, I asked last night on Facebook, like what movies you watch when you're down or drunk, or, you know, alone. And my response was, like, I've seen cabin of the woods and Evil Dead to too many times to count. And yet, when people hear that, you can kind of see the Amen, brother.
Dave Bullis 52:49 Yeah, it's just so interesting. You know, I remember this, this this anecdote that Kane Hodder, I don't know if you can't hotter race, but he was Jason Friday 13th from seven on. And he wants they actually were talking to him once. And they said, who was the best actor you've ever worked with? And his response was, Charlie's Charlie's Theron. And he said she was just absolutely phenomenal monster. And he said that she just blew everyone away. And he's never worked. Someone you know, it's just it's it was she was just beyond, you know, what he was used to? You know, I mean,
Derek Kolstad 53:22 yeah, a friend of mine who saw Fury Road was just like, thrones, amazing, because she's looking in the rearview mirror. And acting. And you're kind of like, I can't do that. Like to have volumes of backstory in a look. It's huge, you know?
Dave Bullis 53:42 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why I think does work. I mean, I haven't seen it. I'm just here. works behind him as well. But, you know, I mean, you've got Tom Hardy, who's phenomenal. And you have her? who I think is absolutely phenomenal. I loved her. promethease I don't know if you saw previous.
Derek Kolstad 53:57 Yeah, I wasn't the biggest fan of that one, man. I loved her, though.
Dave Bullis 54:02 Yeah, she was I you know, I just have a big soft spot for that movie. I know it has for
Derek Kolstad 54:08 everyone has. That's the thing is everyone has those movies that connect to you on a certain capacity. So there are very there are very few movies I will refer to as horrendous or terrible, simply because you connected with them on a certain level. I mean, I have movies that are indefensible, but I love them. Because they they amuse me in a way that only that movie could, you know?
Dave Bullis 54:30 Yeah, I totally, totally understand. So, you know, they're talking about and an hour now, I know you have, you know, I don't want to have too much your time. So, you know, I have one question or actually two questions that came in from the fans if you don't mind. The first question I actually I briefly referred to earlier was about what the question is, I'm just gonna paraphrase this is, you know, with a lot of talk in the industry about script consultants. Where do you feel that they fit in to the whole screening process?
Derek Kolstad 55:04 You know, it's hard for me because I'm Sony is my script consultant, you know, and so, between her and Josh Adler's my manager. You know, that's, that's where I've gone. But I would argue that, you know, my dad used to say that phrase that when you bring in someone to do a job, and you're getting a quote, get five quotes, you throw out the biggest one, throw out the lowest one, and was screw consulting, is if you look at the numbers, if it makes sense for you, great. And a lot of times, especially nowadays, you can find some good ones that all you need is to hear back. Both that criticism and encouragement make you better, you know, I would argue that a lot of us have people who serve the script, consultation, capacity in some respect. But for the pros, they're reading tons of scripts, they know that they know, they know what's selling, they know what's not. And I think, even though I haven't done it before, I can see the value in it. Just don't spend, you know, an ungodly amount, you know.
Dave Bullis 56:11 So, in your opinion, you know, what's, like, do you think there should be like a cap of $100 $1,000 or something like that?
Derek Kolstad 56:16 But, you know, you can't really say a finger because Who is it? You know, you know, at a certain point, like, if you buy a luxury ice cream container for $8, you're like, Oh, sweet, would you buy it for 80? fuck knows ice cream at a certain point. What is it that you're buying, you know,
Dave Bullis 56:35 very true. Just as a funny side note, I actually just saw in, I think it was Abu Dhabi, or somewhere in the Middle East, they actually have ice cream. Now. That's like $1,000 an ounce.
Derek Kolstad 56:49 What's in it?
Dave Bullis 56:50 gold flakes, got diamonds, and caviar and something else. But it's, but it's like the way they make it is they it's all freeze dried. Right. So they make it literally, they make it right in front of you from scratch everything from scratch. Totally not not not the diamonds, of course, but like the ice cream. And then what they do is they put it into this, they mix it up with everything. And then they top it with gold flakes.
Derek Kolstad 57:13 I don't know who told me this years ago, but they're like, it was when the Trump hotel I think was serving up this $800 hamburger, you know? And he said, If I ever found myself wondering about that burger and ordering it, I should just give that money away. And I think that's the truth or most likely Well, if I find myself wanting to buy a Bentley, I should give that money away if I had it.
Dave Bullis 57:39 So yeah, I know what you mean. Although I would say I probably would buy a Bentley. You know, it's funny. Joe, Esther Haas once said that, there's a there's a great way, if you ever stuck on a screenplay, he has found the perfect way to get unstuck and cure writer's block. And he says what you do as you go down to find your local exotic car dealer, and you either get like a Lamborghini or Ferrari and you take it out for the weekend. And he said, What by the time you get back, you're going to do anything in your power to make sure you come by once you could drive out again.
Derek Kolstad 58:15 I like that.
Dave Bullis 58:17 Yeah, and I'm actually trying to get him on the podcast, by the way. Might be a little subtle. Is he
Derek Kolstad 58:23 still writing? He kind of had a big blow for the industry and kind of took took some time off.
Dave Bullis 58:29 Oh, he's the writing. Okay. And because he is he his last work was actually a book. It's an E book called heaven and mail. And it's all about working with Mel Gibson. Nice. And the other question that came in, Derek was how do I go about getting a screenplay mentor?
Derek Kolstad 58:49 Good question, man. If I look at my own life, find someone in your life who reads and reads voraciously, simply because when you read you, you know what's good, you know, what's, you know, what works. And, you know, the other thing too, is my thing about screenwriting, especially the industry, I said at the beginning is you have to be here. I know you can hate LA and hate New York even but you have to be here. You could honestly move to LA right now. jump online and find a group of people who will read your screenplay in 48 hours because they're trying to do the same thing. And it's kind of like the Brotherhood, the script. And you know, that's the bet if you really want to see if you can fail at this move here, you know, but if you don't and you want advice, seek out the people who love the medium. And it's amazing too. The other thing too is you'll know if you have a good script when you have your friends sit around and read it out loud. Because it's amazing, especially with comedy something that intimidates the shit out of me where It's funny to you. It's funny on a page when it's spoken out loud. It's just like gravel, you know? And that's what I'd say.
Dave Bullis 1:00:09 That's a very good point. Did By the way, directors that sort of add on to that, did you see the blacklist has its own podcast now? They're actually reading some like unproduced screenplays. Oh, really? Yeah. That's a really cool idea. Yeah, the the first one they did was a balls out.
Derek Kolstad 1:00:24 I've I haven't read that one. I've heard of it.
Dave Bullis 1:00:27 Somebody once told me about it. And then I heard Craig Mazin mentioned it again. Craig Mazin, you know, he is right. Yeah. Okay. So he mentioned it, and I looked it up. And I was like, Wow, it's easy to find. And apparently, it's been circling around Hollywood for years, but nobody actually wants to make it. But everyone's like, this is fucking hilarious. Haha. And they just pass it on. And and it's been like, why the hell so? Apparently, it does get like pretty outrageous and stuff. So I'm actually going to read it one of these days. But I've read the first 20 pages. I thought it was hilarious.
Derek Kolstad 1:00:59 Like, have you read the screenplay? passengers?
Dave Bullis 1:01:02 No, I haven't. Dude,
Derek Kolstad 1:01:03 that's that's one right now. I think. I think Chris Pratt attached? I don't know, do the female leaders right now. That's one that every exact I talked to us. Like, that's the best game plan read in five years. But we passed on it. And the realities of this business are it's like, let's say you read a screenplay, and it's your favorite ever. But you're like, that's $120 million. You know, pG 13 R rated sci fi thriller. That's unique. You know, it's not based on anything. You know, you've got shareholders, man, it's, it's a huge risk. So when people pass on certain stuff, like I've talked to a number of people passed on gravity. You're like, wow, and then you realize, Oh, yeah, if you hadn't seen the visuals, and read it, I get it, you know? And yet, every now and then, especially being an aspiring writer, like yourself. Oh, fuck that. You're a writer, you know, is when you go to the theater. You're like, you get 12 minutes into the movie, like, how is this made? And a lot of times, even the people involved like I don't happen.
Dave Bullis 1:02:09 Yeah, there's a there's another podcast too. called How did this get made? And? And I first I was like, What the hell? But But yeah, I know exactly what you mean. You know, they even mentioned you What the hell happened here. But you know, it's funny Derrick member landed the last one that came out with Will Ferrell. Yeah, that that studio, they they bought the book so much on that. And then what happened was when a failed, everyone got fired?
Derek Kolstad 1:02:35 Yeah. That's the kind of thing though, that you can you feel for certain people involved because I remember talking to the producers of Jonah hacks. And they, you know, this was after the fact they were like, Derek, the screenplay was fun. It was a blast. The table reads to great. Three weeks for shooting, they carved off like $15 million for a budget, we thought we do fine. And then when we started seeing dailies, we were like, what happened? It's just, again, it's a miracle, and you get a good movie. And it's simply because, you know, it's it begins and ends with a script, sure. But at certain points, people step in, and the script gets muddied. And things happen, you know, often a bad movie. That's only bad when it hits the second act, you know, that's more often than not.
Dave Bullis 1:03:27 Yeah, very true. Yeah. Something I've always heard is the the second act is where movies go to die.
Derek Kolstad 1:03:34 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would argue that the movies I write the I love, just actually I love thrillers love sci fi. The work is an act to me an act one you come up with, when you're out for a walk, or you're having a meal. x three is just fun, because you can finish the fucker. But act two. That's where the writing comes in. And when you start receiving notes, all your notes are an act two, not one or three.
Dave Bullis 1:04:06 So you know, Derrick, in closing, uh, you know, I mean, we could talk all day, you and I could tell we have you know, we have we have the same taste in movies we've got
Derek Kolstad 1:04:14 we're both give a shout when the next film comes out, man.
Dave Bullis 1:04:18 Okay, definitely. Because you're both have degrees in business. We both do writing. We both have red hair.
Derek Kolstad 1:04:25 Losing my I shaved my head.
Dave Bullis 1:04:28 But thank you for that writer comment, by the way. Yeah.
Derek Kolstad 1:04:33 I have to stop myself because it's kind of like Kiana said about he doesn't do his he doesn't do stocks. He's really doing it. And so when I talk to people, it's like, you're not to say you're an aspiring screenwriter means you want to be a screenwriter. He's being paid, but to be writers to be a writer. And as soon as you have one person read it, you've affected their entire life. And I think it's it's a difficult career, and yet it's a it's a fun one. I'm not saying john wick is going to be out there changing people's lives but I want making movies that like predator diehard for instance, we are you're at a hotel one night. It's 11 o'clock you're tired. You turn on the TV halfway through predator like fuck gotta watch it. Those the movies I love.
Dave Bullis 1:05:16 I mean, I remember when I when I was beyond the commercials for john wick. I was on Facebook one day and a friend of mine who's kind of a hard guy to please movies actually was like john wick Anyway, you know, dot dot dot the ellipsis anyway, that was pretty fucking good.
Derek Kolstad 1:05:31 See that's the best. That's what I want, you know. And in fact, I had people on Facebook who were like, in their late 70s, early 80s friends of my grandmother, who hadn't seen an R rated movies since maybe the Godfather. They went to see it sparked me there just like that I really enjoyed that.
Dave Bullis 1:05:49 He gigs, I mean that there's a couple things in john wick. Like I said, people if you're listening to this troja job was gonna dig into it. But just you know, real quick, I know, you have to go. But when john wick he was going through the nightclub, and he's all action scene, and we're following the whole time. And it's just everything about that we're just all came together beautifully. And I was like, and I was like, Damn, that's a really good action scene right there.
Derek Kolstad 1:06:11 Yeah, it was fun is, you know, Chad and Dave, their background is, you know, his his stunt direction and that kind of stuff. But what I loved about working with them. And what I love about where he would have now is a lot of the action beats I wrote into the script are on the screen, like to see that john shoots the guy's foot aliens for and shoots his head. And like that was in the screenplay. And so I know for a lot of like the Marvel movies or the bigger properties. They say john wick fights 15 guys, like in the script, they gave me the opportunity to help them along the action, action wise. And what I love about their directing style is there's no quick cuts, they're doing all these moves, they're landing all of these blows. And it's it's kind of like an ode to the kung fu I grew up with, you know, and we had fun with it then and we're gonna have a blast with it when the next
Dave Bullis 1:07:05 is there a rough date for the release date for the next one? Not, not, not
Derek Kolstad 1:07:09 really. Lionsgate really wants one there. They're talking with various people in Cannes right now. So we could shoot in the fall, or we could shoot in the spring. The Lions Gate has been very, very generous. I mean, it's very rare to be in a place where you have a greenlit movie, you know, and it's greenlit, and they're like, the sooner the better. And yet they want to massage this into a franchise and Kanno who's, you know, implicit in all of this is very careful to do so as well.
Dave Bullis 1:07:40 And that's absolutely phenomenal. And you know, Derek, I want to say congratulations on all your success. He's you know, you've definitely earned it. And you know, I wish you nothing but the best with you know, john with two and hopefully john wick three and you know, all the other future products you have.
Derek Kolstad 1:07:54 Thanks a lot, man. I enjoyed talking to you.
Dave Bullis 1:07:56 Oh, my pleasure, man. Anytime we get talking about like movies like anyone who's seen man skeeto or were killed dozer or future or you see rubber. Yes, I did see rubber Yes.
Derek Kolstad 1:08:11 That you know,
Dave Bullis 1:08:11 if you ever really want to punish yourself, and this goes for finale, you Derek or anyone listening? If you want to see the worst film that I've ever seen, I know exactly what it is. And it's called Nuki. What Nuki it's NUK ie, it's a movie about two aliens that crash land in Africa. And it is it was supposed to be like a kid's movie like a ripoff of et. And it is so odd and bad and boring and dead. It's It's It's hailed as you know, they usually have the worst movies ever made. They usually put plan nine on but plan nine is actually entertaining. This is just bad. So so if you ever and I'll link to in the show notes too, if anybody actually wants to venture out to see Nuki but it is absolutely barn on the worst movie I've ever seen in my life.
Derek Kolstad 1:09:01 Obviously, martyrs, martyrs No, that is one of the most disturbing horror movies I've ever seen. So
Dave Bullis 1:09:07 okay, I'll make I'm making a note of that.
Derek Kolstad 1:09:09 That and three extremes is awesome.
Dave Bullis 1:09:12 Yeah, I've seen extreme extremes.
Derek Kolstad 1:09:14 Yeah. And go for hours, man.
Dave Bullis 1:09:17 Yeah, seriously. I mean, we could always be talking I mean, that's a that's what helped me fight you know, find somebody like yourself, who just says seen all these random movies that I've seen. And I'm gonna check out that movie Casablanca you mentioned I
Derek Kolstad 1:09:30 don't Hey, when you're out, man, give me a shout, dude.
Dave Bullis 1:09:35 We'll do Derek.
Derek Kolstad 1:09:42 I don't do Twitter anything.
Dave Bullis 1:09:44 Okay.
Derek Kolstad 1:09:46 I just I just a private guy, man.
Dave Bullis 1:09:50 Cool. And, you know, everybody can find me at Dave bulls.com. You can you can find you can find me I'm a I try to be private but I got way too much social stuff going on. You don't even need channels. Um, but actually, Derek, I want to say thanks again for coming on. And please, anytime want to come back, just let me know.
Derek Kolstad 1:10:08 Sure. Thanks. Good luck, man.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:10 Like I said, that was an awesome, awesome interview. Derek. I'm a huge fan of Derek and I'm a huge fan of the john wick franchise. So if you do want to get more episodes by Dave Bullis on the make your movie podcast, just head over to eye f h podcast network.com. And check out all of the other amazing podcasts that we have in the network that is focused on filmmaking, film history, analysis, and screenwriting. And if you want to take a deeper dive into the mind of screenwriters, definitely check out our new podcast inside the screenwriters mind, which is an archive of all the best screen writer interviews that the IFH Podcast Network has, and you can check that out at screenwritersmind.com. Thank you guys for listening. Next week, we will be back to our regularly scheduled program, and I got some amazing new stuff coming for you in the coming weeks. Thanks again for listening guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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Today on the show we have screenwriter and director Jeffrey Reddick, who is best known for creating the highly successful Final Destination horror film franchise. The franchise has grossed over $650 Million world-wide. Not bad for an idea that was first conceived for an X-Files episode.
Jeffrey also co-wrote the story for, and executive produced, Final Destination 2 (2003). Jeffrey made his first connection to the film industry at age 14 when he wrote a prequel to Nightmare On Elm Street(1984) and mailed it to Bob Shaye, the President of New Line Cinema. Bob returned the material for being unsolicited. But the young man wrote Bob an aggressive reply, which won him over.
Bob read the treatment and got back to Jeffrey. Bob, and his assistant, Joy Mann, stayed in contact with Jeffrey for over five years. When he went to The American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York at age 19, Bob offered him an internship at New Line Cinema. This internship turned into an 11-year stint at the studio.
Aside from Final Destination (2000), which spawned four successful sequels, Jeffrey’s other credits include Lions Gate’s thriller, Tamara (2005), and the remake of George Romero’s classic, Day of the Dead (2008). Jeffrey’s directorial debut is Don’t Look Back.
When a young woman overcoming her traumatic past is among several witnesses who see a man fatally assaulted and don’t intervene, they find themselves targeted by someone, or something, out for revenge.
Jeffrey has had an amazing career so far and I can’t wait to see what he comes up with next.
Enjoy my spooky conversation with Jeffrey Reddick.
Alex Ferrari 0:52 I'd like to welcome to the show the legendary Jeffrey Redick, how are you doing Jeffrey?
Jeffrey Reddick 3:43 I'm doing well. How you doing? Brother?
Alex Ferrari 3:44 I'm good man. I'm good, man. It's as good as we can be in this horror script of a year.
Jeffrey Reddick 3:52 I know. I know. It's just like when you think you hit the final act, killers dead killer pops back up again. And it's like,
Alex Ferrari 3:59 I mean, like I was talking to another guest the other day about is like this is so on the nose. Like, you know, studio would produce the script of 2020 it's just too It doesn't even make sense.
Jeffrey Reddick 4:11 Yeah, absolutely. No, it's been. It has been like, you know, you try to stay stay grateful and you try to stay positive about stuff but you can't not take in the fact that like the world is like suffering through something really. Absolutely.
Alex Ferrari 4:26 Absolutely. And getting getting crazier and get it getting crazier but but we as filmmakers and screenwriters are insane enough to go yes, I know the world is burning. But how do I get my my screenplay produced? I need the budget for my film.
Jeffrey Reddick 4:44 We can still make this movie we can do it safely.
Alex Ferrari 4:48 This insanity of the psychosis of a filmmaker or screenwriters you're just like how do I get this movie made this crazy this is that I imagined there filmmakers in the Mad Max world and I know we have no gasoline, or cameras, but we got to shoot something.
Jeffrey Reddick 5:05 Yeah, I would say no starting an only fans page, not not doing the stuff that they normally do on there, but just only just me typing just to somebody. I'm sure there are some people out there that will be like, Oh, that's so relaxing to watch every type all day. Just pay me a couple of bucks a month.
Alex Ferrari 5:23 You could just walk why, exactly. It's the it's the new generation of the burning log or the fish tank video. Yes. So Jeffrey, how did you get into the business?
Jeffrey Reddick 5:37 Um, how I, how I got in business is a pretty funny story. It all started when I was 14. And I was a, you know, 14 year old hillbilly living in eastern Kentucky. And I saw this movie A Nightmare on Elm Street that blew my mind. It's still my favorite movie ever. And I went home and I banged out a prequel on my little typewriter. And I found out who owned new lines in it, who ran New Line Cinema, Bob Shea. And I got the address. And I mailed it to him. And he sent it back to me. And he's like, you know, we don't take unsolicited material. Thanks for sending your thing. So I had to look up unsolicited because I'm 14. I didn't know what that meant. And then I wrote him back. I sent it back to him. Because I was kind of perturbed. I was like, Look, sir, I've seen three of your movies. And I spent $3 on your work. So I think you can take five minutes to read my story. And he actually read it.
Alex Ferrari 6:29 But this is so what yours is so we're talking like at this was at five. So this is the time that you could actually call up Bob Shea's office, get a receptionist or get her his assistant and actually maybe possibly get through.
Jeffrey Reddick 6:44 Why didn't get through to him on the phone, but I okay, yeah, I got it,
Alex Ferrari 6:47 but even get through them, period.
Jeffrey Reddick 6:50 Yeah, I think but then I wrote the letter. And and, you know, once I wrote that second letter, he wrote me back and he's like, thank you for your aggressive introduction. And he read the story. And he was very constructive. And basically his assistant joy man who was a wonderful woman, she's not with us any longer. She her and Bob kind of took me under their wing from afar. And so they would send me scripts, and movie posters and just things that, you know, a 14 year old kid in Kentucky like flips out over. And they stayed in touch with me till I was 19. And I went to college in Kentucky at this great University College called Berea College. And I went to New York for study for a summer program to study acting, and Bob and Joyce said, Well, how do you want to intern at new line? I'm like, Are you kidding me? Of course I do. And I got an agent and decided to stay in New York. And you know, my internship turned into a position at new line. And I ended up working there for 11 years, and they ended up you know, producing final destination. So
Alex Ferrari 7:46 that little thing yeah, that little little film that you liked what you just dropped that into? Yeah, that's the final destination. Well, one of the more successful horror franchises in history. Now, how did you get well, first of all, how did you come up with the idea for final destination?
Jeffrey Reddick 8:05 The, the colonel for the idea came when I was I was flying home to get a lot of stuff was as Kentucky base, I was flying home to Kentucky, and I read an article about a woman who was on vacation. And her mother called her and said, don't take the flight you're on tomorrow, I have a bad feeling about it. And so she changed flights. And then the story, they said the flights that she was supposed to be on crashed. So that put the idea in my head, but I didn't know the story to go with the idea. And then, you know, years later, I was trying to get an agent for writing. And so I had to write a spec script for something that was on TV. And I loved the X Files. So I use that idea is a setup for an X Files episode. And I got the agent. And then my friends and newline were like, this is a great idea. Like don't, you know, don't send the script in, like for an X Files episode, like make it a feature. So I ended up writing a treatment, you know, because back in the day, you could sell treatments for her projects are no pitch or a pitch. Yeah, you can do that back then. And now it's like, hey, pitches the story and tell us who your star is.
Alex Ferrari 9:04 And you have and you have 50% of the financing in place already. And you have distribution in place.
Jeffrey Reddick 9:07 Yeah, it's like, yeah, the business is, is changed so much. But But you know, I one of my friends, Chris bender that worked at New Line had just started working for Craig Perry and Warren Zeid, who were producers that had to deal at new line and I knew that even though I worked at new line, and I had a straight kind of pipeline to the creative team, I knew that it would give me more juice if I had producers on board because they would just take it more seriously. But it was a hard Honestly, it was a hard sell. Like they were like we don't get death being the killer. Like you can't see it. You can't fight it. And we're like, that's the point. And so it wasn't until we threatened to take it to Miramax or like we'll buy it. All right, well buy it. It will take a chance on it.
Alex Ferrari 9:54 No, it's a great it's a it's a great idea. It is such a you know in your And you're right. I can only imagine back then, because there was like you had Jason, you had Freddy, you had Michael Myers, you had Chucky and all these, like, you could put that on the poster, you can't put death that has no figure on the poster. So it must be it must have been a difficult sell for the marketing team.
Jeffrey Reddick 10:19 It was and I think they did a great job with Oh, yeah. But, you know, the whole reason that we, you know, the whole reason that I, I want, and I'm glad that when James Wong and Morgan came on, they fought to make sure that that that death never had a forum, and they came up with some some other amazing thing, like the whole Rube Goldberg aspect of it. But the reason that I wanted to not give death a form is because I wanted it to be as universal as possible. And if you put like, if you put like a Western kind of Christian version of death, you know, like Grim Reaper with sickle or something like that, then then it doesn't appeal to people who either are have different religious beliefs or spiritual beliefs or don't have spiritual beliefs. So I thought it was very important to not do that. And, and I think that's why it's been as successful as it has been.
Alex Ferrari 11:05 Yeah, it travels very well around the world, because everybody has death in their culture, that is something that concept is in every culture, the figure of it is different from culture to culture, right. But that's it. You can project they can project their own version of what death is on to the movie, which is fantastic. And I remember the trailers of that film. They just as the sequels kept coming, they kept focusing more and more on the deaths. Like that was like, that was the selling point. Like, what is the craziest way we could kill? So?
Jeffrey Reddick 11:38 Yes.
Alex Ferrari 11:41 That became the the hook I guess, as as these kept going, how many? There was five? Right?
Jeffrey Reddick 11:47 Yeah, there have been five of them. And there will be a sixth one. There. It was definitely in the works before COVID hit and now COVID just kind of put the brakes.
Alex Ferrari 11:56 Are they? Are they good? Are they going to kind of reboot the whole thing? Are they going to just make a straight up sequel? Or you don't know? You can't tell?
Jeffrey Reddick 12:03 I don't Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't know if reboot. I think reboot is too strong of a word. Um, you know, because it's the final destination, you know, films have their formula, you know, a big set piece at the beginning and then death comes after people. So I don't know if reboots the right word, because that that intimate,
Alex Ferrari 12:23 but bring a new generation, I guess. I mean, but but every but every cast was like you didn't have one cast member that ran through the whole thing.
Jeffrey Reddick 12:30 Did you remember Tony Todd is the is the recurring has been the recurring character and Ali Larter was in the right and second one. Yeah, Tony Todd's been, you know, he hasn't been in every single one of them. But he's been in like, a lot. Yeah. Yeah, he should be in every one of them. There are a few where they can put him in there. And they they they got they got the message that people love Tony Todd. And
Alex Ferrari 12:54 now I do remember when you and I originally met 10 years ago on a panel here in LA, a horror film panel. And I remember you saying on the panel that like, Look, I they can make as many of these as they want. Because every single time they make one I get a check. So yeah, I know. residuals, residuals
Jeffrey Reddick 13:16 know what that sounds like. Good. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds better on a panel. There are people there, then I sound like a douchebag.
Alex Ferrari 13:25 No, no, no, and I don't even I don't mean to make you sound like that. I completely. And I know that and I listen, I look, I know a lot of I've had a lot of screenwriters on board that like they work on a few of the first ones. And then I had the guy who did Air Bud, who created air bug. And they made 12 of those films. He was only involved in the first two or three but every single time they make a new one, he gets a residual check. So that's nothing to be ashamed of as a screenwriter. Well,
Jeffrey Reddick 13:56 I know when it will even as a horror fan, though, it's like I want there to be yes, the money is nice, but I want there to be more because I can't think of any other franchise that's been this successful. And they've only made five of them in 20 years, like every other. There have been like 20 Halloweens and 20 Friday you know there have been like even you know even nightmare downstream there have been like it's like come on, make some more because the fans want it and I need to get some new shoes.
Alex Ferrari 14:27 As we were saying residual checks are nice. They're very very nice. Now how did I wonder I always like to ask this of a screenwriter who has a hit because when Final Destination came out it was a fairly large hit for for the but it was a fairly small budget to I'm imagine it wasn't a huge budget.
Jeffrey Reddick 14:44 No, that was that one. I have to say they It was 20 million which is actually big for a horror movie back then. Big Four horror film. Um, but yeah, it was a it was a big hit. sleeper hit it opened it like number three or four and then the next week it went up and then the next weekend. Number one, so it was definitely a word of mouth hit two, which was nice to see happen. And that rarely ever happens. Especially with horror. Yeah, usually they open big and then they drop. Right, exactly.
Alex Ferrari 15:10 So I always like to ask screenwriters who had that kind of success? How did the trap the town treat you? What was the experience of being in the final destination? hurricane, if you will?
Jeffrey Reddick 15:22 Well, the funny thing is I, I missed the hurricane because I was in New York. So I worked out of the New York office of new line. So I wasn't in LA, we're kind of all the, you know, the hurricane like action happens. So I was, I was aware of how well it did. But I was in a different world. And so I stayed at new line because I, I just loved the company so much. I'm just one of those people, you know, creatures of habit that gets very comfortable. I actually stayed at New Line, until I sold the sequel, the story for the sequel, in 2000, in 2000, and then finally, my bosses were like, you know, everybody knew I was like, we love you to death, Jeffrey, but you sold two movies. Now it's time, it's time to
Alex Ferrari 16:09 go out into the world, Jeffrey, it's okay. Like they were pushing you out of the nest,
Jeffrey Reddick 16:14 out of the nest. And, but I was happy in New York. So I was going to stay in New York. But unfortunately, you know, 911 happened. And I lived in Battery Park City, which is not far from the World Trade Center. So once that happened, I then I decided to move out to LA. So you know, typically, when something like that happens, even when you sell a project, you kind of, you know, looking back, you kind of you know, you move to LA immediately, you milk that movie as much as you can till it comes down. And if it's hit, you're out here, but I kind of missed all all of that stuff. So by the time I got out here, it was funny because people, my agent, you know, I got an agent, he pretty much had to introduce me to the town. Because, you know, James Wong, Lynn Morgan, who, you know, co wrote the movie and also directed it, you know, they were out here in the hurricane. So people didn't really know who I was until I actually got out here. And then they read my script. And they're like, Oh, I'm like, Well, my name is all over the poster. But they don't you know, it's a town where if you're not sitting in a room with somebody, they don't actually go and look at a movie poster in the credits.
Alex Ferrari 17:19 Yeah, out of sight, out of mind,
Jeffrey Reddick 17:20 basically, out of sight out of mind. So, so I missed the craziness of the hurricane, which I think was probably a good thing. For me, just as a person, because I think if I got out here, I may have got sucked into like, just the world of craziness that I wasn't prepared for I I got sober like 15 years ago. So I think if you know, and mine was my my advice was drinking and it was, you know, just wasn't anything like super crazy. It was just kind of more like, sitting at home being sad, drunk and not being happy. So I think if I had been out here, in that celebratory party kind of scene, healthy. I think it would have been very unhealthy for me. So I think it was a it was probably, you know, God looking out for me in that that that way. But um, it's funny now kind of, you know, as the years go by, though, seeing how much of an impact the movie has had, like, you know, when I hear somebody say, this is a final destination moment, like, even when I'm not around, like, they don't know that I'm involved with it at all. I'll just be out in public and somebody's like, Oh, it's like, final destination. And it's like, holy shit. Like, this is like part of the culture now like,
Alex Ferrari 18:31 Oh, it's in the it's in this guy. So yeah, it's it's definitely transcended, like, I mean, I'd argue kind of like a Freddy or a Jason or a Chucky or Michael, but in its own its own very unique space. I mean, you have a final destination is a very unique niche within the horror genre, because there is no killer. Yes. Visual killer. It's a very, you know, very, very unique in that has more than one movie. It has five movies, you know, so that it's in itself, and I guess they kept being successful because it kept making them.
Jeffrey Reddick 19:07 Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it's, you know, it's, it's just as somebody who's been a horror fan my whole life. It's been, it's been very gratifying, you know, it's but it's also a dragon that you're chasing, you know, you find yourself chasing that dragon dragon. Something's like, Well, why don't you bring to something like Final Destination? And I'm like, What? idea and they're like, Oh, that's too much like final destination. Well, that was not enough like final destination.
Alex Ferrari 19:28 So that is something that is something that's real because a lot of filmmakers and screenwriters don't realize that but when you're you're a hit in town for something. That's the box you get put into and you a lot of times have to fight your way out of that box. I know. I know, for a fact that Wes Craven, one of the greatest horror directors of all time, I knew his personal assistant. That was his personal system for many years and he was dying to get out of he wanted to do something different. He'd been doing horror for such a long time. And that movie music The heart which was called 500 violins. The only reason he got that was because they wanted scream to He's like, what do you want me to do scream to Harvey? I need Give me the budget to make. Yeah, to make this. And that's how he got it. But he was I felt that he was, from what I understood. He was frustrated that he was only able to do horror. I know he wanted to venture out as an artist. Yeah, and that happens, doesn't it?
Jeffrey Reddick 20:27 Yeah, they it's it's it's it since I love horror. It's I don't mind being in that box as far as writing goes. But yeah, the idea that it's like, we need you to bring us something like, final destination, that unique thing that you created. But then we didn't actually we were very concerned about it because it was unique until it became a hit. It's just a hard place to be in but you know, I The good thing is I find myself like branching out a little bit like right now I'm working on two animated series for the car for Netflix. You know, in their, their their kid animated series, and one of them has some creepy, fairy tale dark fairy tale elements and the other ones like a spin off of the saga Yojimbo, the Japanese comic. So that's like Samurai rabbits, you know, and it's so much fun to do it. So I'm finding myself Finally, branching out a little bit, but I always will come back to genre like I love this genre so much that
Alex Ferrari 21:22 well, if you love it, you love it. But you but you also want to break out from like, I don't want to write another final destination. I did that. Let's, let's move on.
Jeffrey Reddick 21:29 Let's do something else.
Alex Ferrari 21:31 Now, were you involved with the sequels? I know you were involved with a second sequel? Did you? Were you involved with the other sequels at all?
Jeffrey Reddick 21:37 No, not not not physically involved. I mean, I I'm very good friends with a producer Craig Perry. So, you know, he'll call me up and a lot of times and bounce ideas off of me and let me know what's going on. So I definitely kind of know what's going on with the franchise. And it's, it's actually been fun to see. Other people kind of come in and put their their mark on the brand. I mean, the first one, it's always been this almost incestuous circle with the first four. It's like, you know, I worked on the first one in the second one and James Wong and Glen Morgan worked on the first one and the third one, Eric brass, and Jay maca. Gruber worked on the second one, and then Eric rested the fourth one. And then we brought in somebody due for the fifth one. And it was like, you know, I love the fifth one. But it's just fun to see, like other people kind of come in and take that concept and put their spin on it.
Alex Ferrari 22:21 Right? I'm imagining what the George Lucas feels like with what they've been doing with Mandalorian. And, and all the other cool films and stuff that they're doing with his his baby that he had put out so many years ago? Yeah.
Jeffrey Reddick 22:38 I think it all depends probably on personalities. Like if I like I'm not sure like that, cuz I know some people get very protective and precious of their work. But you know, I think that's part of working at a studio, what that helped me kind of separate my ego from a lot of that stuff. Because I realized, like, you know, once you write a movie and somebody else buys it, you're kind of handing it over to other people. So you just hope to create a good enough relationship with those people that you can have some say and how they execute it. But again, it's a quality problem. It's a quality problem to have if you have other people doing sequels to your stuff. So I definitely don't complain about
Alex Ferrari 23:15 writing first world problems. As I say it's first world problems. Now, you are such a fan and a student of the genre of horror films, what makes a good horror screenplay?
Jeffrey Reddick 23:28 I mean, I think for me, it it all, it starts with the basics of, you know, having relatable characters. I think if you make me fall in love with these characters and care about them, then I will follow the journey wherever it takes me. Sometimes scripts go off into bizarre directions, but if it's grounded in characters that I can really relate to and care about. That's always the most important thing for me. I do think, you know, for horror, you know, you want to, you know, you want to have some kind of hook that can bring people into the story, some kind of concept that doesn't feel like we're reading the same story of, you know, a family moves into a house and, you know, something horrible happened there. And now a ghost is like haunting them. It's like, we've seen that so many times, it's like, you do want something that we haven't seen 100 times unless you're putting a very unique spin on it. scares and suspense are obviously important. And if you're doing a straight up horror film, obviously, the kills in the set pieces are important too. If you're doing a movie, because you you, you're also you're writing something for for people, but you're making it for an audience out there. So there's certain things that the audience expects in a horror film. So you either want to deliver on those expectations or subvert them in a cool way.
Alex Ferrari 24:47 So very cool. Now, what are the biggest problems you see with horror protagonists? Because, you know, it's almost a cliche. You're like, why are you doing like you're yelling at the screen. Don't go in there. The Killers in their The what? What is the biggest problem you see with protagonists in horror films in general?
Jeffrey Reddick 25:06 I think that you pretty much ended on the head. I mean, I think a lot of movies require and you know, and I'm sure, like, there, there are movies that I've written where this happens to. But you know, when you require, because the thing is audiences, I read this somewhere where a psychologist said that that film audiences always think that they're braver and smarter than the people on screen. So like, you know, when a character wouldn't do something in the film, they're not, they're like, well, if I was there, I'd have jumped on that killers back and done it. But the worst thing you can do is have like, an I've seen so many good movies just get undermined by this, where they just have the main characters, stay in a location when any rational person, right have left and do stupid things that any rational person wouldn't do. So if you have a character that keeps making bad choices, just to keep the story going, that's the biggest mistake I see are I wrote somebody scripts where it's like, you know, this is the city, this is any good movie talking. This is like a human being like, I cannot think of any person, no matter how tough they are, that would stay here after what they just saw. Right? You know, like, you know, I read a script recently, where, you know, a person gets invited to like, some mysterious party and doesn't know who invited them and walks in, and there's like, some weird orgy going on. And, you know, she backs up into some strange guy. And he's like, Oh, don't worry about that. Follow me, I'll show you what's where the host is. And I'm like, Oh, this would be gone at that point. You know, she's, she was horrified by the origin wasn't like she saw the orgy was like, that looks fun. She was like, horrified. And so who's gonna follow some strange man, you know? So when I see stuff, like when I read stuff like that in scripts, especially when that happens over and over again, I think that's the biggest mistake I see in horror films is making your characters continually do silly things just to keep the story going. Well, when
Alex Ferrari 27:00 I when I was thinking, thinking of three films, specifically that are horror films that are so good, that they transcend the genre, almost, which is Jaws, Exorcist and Silence of the Lambs. The stories, the characters, everything is so well constructed. There's never a moment in Silence of the Lambs. I'm like, don't don't like why are you doing that? Like jaws is perfectly it's as as perfect of a film, it's period as you can get. And the actresses like, those, the situation is structured in a way where, well, the priest is trying to get the devil out of this girl. So he has to be in there. Because that's his job as opposed to, you know, oh, let's get this all split up in the woods. Yeah, so the killer could knock us off one at a time.
Jeffrey Reddick 27:52 Right? And you don't get a pass because I see a lot of this in the scripts to where people will be like, really? Now you want to split up now? Have you seen a horror movie and then they still split up? It's like, that doesn't give you a pass by
Alex Ferrari 28:04 exactly now, and that was the perfect thing. Well, that started with scream when scream actually was so self aware of its own faults. Yeah, I mean, that is a brilliant script. And that's Yeah, love scream.
Jeffrey Reddick 28:16 I that's one of my favorites.
Alex Ferrari 28:18 I mean, so brilliantly done and the first opening sequence with Drew Barrymore I mean, it's it's the psycho and you killing it. I mean, spoiler alert first 10 minutes drew dies. But, but it like it was shocking for a new generation. It was basically what what psycho did back in the day, but it was so brilliant. I remember when that came out. It was just like a revelate like everybody, it was such a monster hit
Jeffrey Reddick 28:44 at the end because I went to a screening of it and I didn't I you know, I saw the poster in the trailer. I thought Drew Barrymore was the star of it. I just went in there with my sweet ass going, Well, I can't wait to watch Bruce. Bruce scream for like 90 minutes and get and I was like,
Alex Ferrari 28:59 What? What? What's going on?
Jeffrey Reddick 29:01 Oh, it's like one of the most brilliant 10 minutes of cinema.
Alex Ferrari 29:06 Yeah, it's it's amazing. Now, with the blue we know what the problem is with protagonists. But what can you do as a screenwriter to make a horror villain legendary? Because we've already rattled off a handful of names that are all you need to do is just say their first names and in the horror genre, they know what it is. So what do you do? Like what makes Michael Meyers Freddy? Jason you know, those characters so so legendary, as opposed to other horror, you know, other horror either franchises that either come and go, that have those kind of looks from the poster. The same elements is Jason or Freddy, but they don't live up to it and they don't what's that magic? What's that thing? In your opinion?
Jeffrey Reddick 29:54 You know what I think? I don't think that there's I don't think that that that's almost an answer because it's it's almost like catching lightning in a bottle. Because sometimes the characters are so like you mentioned Simon lamb like Hannibal Lecter is such a delectable like, you know with its with just the portrayal and the way that he was filmed and everything is that it's mesmerizing that so you have sometimes you have villains like that, or Freddy Krueger, I think is probably the best example of the of the slashers. Because especially in the first movie, like he was so feral, and so there was just something so wicked about him, like he cut himself, he cut it, people he was just horrible. Like, we'd never seen anything like that. And Chucky had such a distinct, you know, it's a toy, you know, it's like, look like a little toy. You know, you almost had as much fun with the Chucky movies when the dolls getting knocked around, knowing that, knowing that it's possessed, like, so it's, there's something about that. But, you know, I think, you know, with Michael Myers, he didn't say anything. And it was just, he was an embodiment of evil. But also that movie came out at a time, you know, we were kind of in, you know, the suburbs, everything was about the sub suburbs and how the suburbs were safe and the last bastion of safety in America. And, you know, Michael Myers came in and kind of took that over. And with Friday the 13th, you know, like people forget, you know, Jason's mother was a killer. And the first one, he wore like, a sack over his head. And the second one, he didn't get the hockey mask on the third one. And I think that that, that by that point, it you just were our culture was at the time. slashers are so hot. And that just happened to be the one that like exploded Friday, the 13th exploded. I don't know if it's necessarily because of Jason per se. Time Bomb.
Alex Ferrari 31:38 It was timing,
Jeffrey Reddick 31:39 I think with timing on that one. Because again, most people think of him with a hockey mask. It's like, well, he didn't have the hockey mask till the third movie. And he wasn't the killer in the first one. So I think timing has a lot to do with when certain movies take off and when certain movies hit but I think good. No, I was gonna say, but I think when you create a villain for a horror film, especially if it's like a slasher film, you do kind of want to come up with some kind of iconography, some kind of look that's unique, where people will like, they'll remember that, that that killer if your movies fortunate enough to like, really strike a chord with people and take off. Like, that sucks about finals nation. It's like, we could have had a Halloween costume and a toy line, but we don't because it's we don't have a killer. So
Alex Ferrari 32:25 we have five but we have five movies. And hopefully, yes, yes.
Jeffrey Reddick 32:29 But it's funny because it's Yeah, because I love like collecting, like, you know, stat you know, movie posters and statues and tchotchkes. So it'd be nice to have one for mine. But that's our
Alex Ferrari 32:41 they should they should actually sell the statues of the kills. So like the, the sequence of a kill like that chap.
Jeffrey Reddick 32:50 That would be awesome. Like the log going into sheriff's car. Exactly. All those kills a B on the balance beam. And the fifth one, like I love that kill, too.
Alex Ferrari 33:00 Yeah, but you look at things like leprechaun, and I'm like, how did that thing become? How did that become a thing? Like they ran off? Like, how many of those are the things that they just took off? So and then something like candy man did it? Like there should be 20 candy men?
Jeffrey Reddick 33:15 Yeah, there should be. I mean, well, you know, what's interesting, too, is we have to also look at the time when these movies came out as far as what was accessible. So, you know, back when, when I was young, you know, there were like three networks in HBO. So everybody was watching the same things. And so people were seeing the same movies. There weren't as many movies that were coming out as there are now so, you know, you didn't have a, you know, when scary movies came out, like everybody rushed to see them. But everybody across the country was seeing like the same movies and watching the same things on television. You know, like, back in the day, it was like 60 million, you know, viewers was like a hit for a network show. And now it's like, well, we got 10 million viewers, it's a hit. So you know, the country used to be much more the choices used to be a lot more limited. So a lot of the people would get around, especially the horror fans with with reading Fangoria. You know, you'd see what was coming up and Fangoria, and then all the horror fans would rush out and see those movies. And they're, you know, they're cheaper to make and they turn a profit. So I think that's why you have a lot of horror franchises. You know, they seem to have burned themselves out a while ago. Just because I think the marketplaces got bigger with like the streamers and so many theater chains now with so many movies coming out like it's you really have to like rise above all the clutter out there.
Alex Ferrari 34:32 Right and and I can't imagine being I think it's in the camera ready that Jordan Peele remake
Jeffrey Reddick 34:38 Yes, Kenya is gonna come out but they had to push it but you know, Candyman is one of those movies I mean, it's it's it definitely appears in like the top rated you know, as far as it's a it's a beautiful movie. Um, but I do think you know, people you know, I don't I like to say delicately because people get their hackles up when when you start talking about at all, but you know, you have to look at the time when that movie came out. Right. And, you know, it's basically an interracial love story. And, you know, people weren't quite ready for that. I mean, I just read an 85. You know, there was when they put up commando, there was a love scene between Arnold Schwarzenegger's character and the female lead. But when they cast right on Chong, they cut this loveseat out because they're like, the country's not ready for this yet. And there was there was still a lot of that I think itchiness that people had about interracial relationships. And I'm like, screw you. Because if it wasn't for interracial relationships, I wouldn't be here so.
Alex Ferrari 35:37 Exactly,
Jeffrey Reddick 35:38 exactly. But But, you know, it was a different time back then. So I you know, but that I mean, that movies from the acting directing?
Alex Ferrari 35:47 Yeah, I remember it.
Jeffrey Reddick 35:49 I mean, everything is like, it's a I mean, it's a masterful movie, like you. Such a beautiful movie. And I thought the sequel was good, too. I liked I liked the sequel a lot. But yeah, it did. I think the reason it probably didn't take off as it was, it was, it was it wasn't the, you know, hot teenagers getting slashed up. You know, it was like dealing with like, you know, racial inequality and racial injustice. And it also had an interracial love story at the center of it. So I think people you know, I again, I just think people weren't quite ready for that at the time that it came out.
Alex Ferrari 36:22 So how do you see from from the moment that final destination was released to now and moving forward? How has horror changed because I don't see as many slasher films anymore. That's not as in vogue as it used to be. Right. You know, it's not like the 80s the golden the golden era of slasher films and that kind of horror, what kind of and then there was the Was it the horror porn or not poor porn, but, um, so I saw it torture. Yeah, the saw and the hostel and that that whole era of, of kind of horror, where do you see horror going? And it Are we going to come back to some of this, you know, nostalgic slasher, because I know they tried to remake Friday, and they did it. They did as good of a job, but you can't catch that. Robert England is ready.
Jeffrey Reddick 37:12 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think right now we're, we're very much in a supernatural kind of
Alex Ferrari 37:19 write up, contract,
Jeffrey Reddick 37:20 kind of horror kind of world. But but I honestly, you know, because I know that the business tries to the business tries to stay ahead of the curve and kind of run the ball about what's going to be popular, but then something popular comes out and then they everybody tries to start making that so everybody's, you know, trying to make the next get out now, like socially relevant kind of horror films. So I think we'll be seeing some more of that coming out for a while, but I think we're just one, you know, fresh slasher film away from having any of these genres come back. I mean, I still love it good slasher movie. You know, I, you know, there have been a glut of zombie movies, like, you know, and I get on Netflix and Amazon Prime and Hulu and everything. I'm like, you know, from every country, it's like, there's a good zillion zombie movies out there right now. So I don't know. I mean, I think people go to see horror films to escape, though the horrors going on in the real world. So I feel like escapism or like supernatural kind of stuff, is probably going to always be popular, and slasher stuff, because that's still escapism if it's not sadistic. You know, like, just mean spirited. I certainly know when COVID first hit, you know, all my friends were like, we're writing a COVID script. I'm
Alex Ferrari 38:41 like, No, no, I said the same thing. And like I had, I talked to some executives, like we got 20 COVID scripts a day, and nobody is going to produce a COVID script. Because the last thing I want to watch is a COVID script. Like you didn't want to watch a 911 movie after 911 or Vietnam movie while Vietnam was going on. Yeah,
Jeffrey Reddick 39:00 yeah. So I think that um, I think the escapism horror You know, I think supernatural still goes strong for a long time, but, you know, I think slasher movies are always going to be popular, it's just you got to, you know, you got to hit that right slasher kind of combination with characters in the slasher together.
Alex Ferrari 39:17 And in the end, that's the one thing I love you said that said something a second ago mean spirited with those those slasher films of the 80s that we all kind of love and grew up with. They're not mean spirited. I mean, Freddie is funny. Like, he got funnier, he got a lot funnier, after sec, the second and third and fourth, he became almost a comedy act, you know, killing people towards the end and towards the end of that series, and, and, you know, it wasn't mean spirited, even Michael and those in Jason who are kind of basically voiceless, they don't say anything. And when Freddy vs. Jason came out, I mean, that was hilarious. That was so much fun, but That is a key isn't it not being mean spirited in the way you do it and I think a lot of those torture kind of torture porn films, kind of, I think a little bit were a little bit mean spirited, like salt one was amazing.
Jeffrey Reddick 40:13 Yeah. And I think that's it, you know, it's all a personal it's a matter of taste for sure. Like I don't, you know, cuz I know certain people, like certain types of movies, but I shouldn't there's, there's a difference, like, and I'll just use hostel as an example. Like I thought the first hostel was very entertaining, like it had an add humor to it. You had, you know, male antagonists for the first time in a long time in horror movies. So and it was also kind of commenting on how like, you know, you know, American men will American anybody will travel internationally and they're just we have an arrogance about it. Like we, you know, we go to like France, and we're like, annoyed that people don't speak English. And then we're here demanding that everybody speak English, but when we travel, we're like, why does anybody speak English everywhere? So they kind of played up that whole thing and made the character you know, the characters were kind of, some of them were sympathetic, but some of them were kind of jerks. And the torture didn't come to later was I think, if you watch saw too, you know, in my humble opinion, I like it. It kind of did everything right that hostile did I think hostile to did wrong? You know, because it had, you know, women it had the, you know, Heather amaszonas character who's like, tied up naked, hung upside down, like begging for life as this woman like, slowly like, slices her for, you know, it's just, there's a difference in tone. Like, there's a Yeah, there's just a mean spiritedness about, like hostile to and there's a mean spirited is about certain of these kind of torture porn movies, where it's, you're not just you know, because you want to go have fun at these movies. It's not like, it's not like watching it. You don't want to go and watch somebody you know, you don't want to watch a mortician dissected the body correct in real life. So for a horror movie, it's not like you want to sit there and watch a killer slowly like to torture a person to death. You know, it's like watching somebody torture academ you know, online it's like, that's not entertaining. That's just feels gratuitous and is mean spirited. And I think that that's why those films don't tend to have as big of an audience because even the Saw movies they're, they're not I don't feel like they're mean spirited. there's a there's a sense of like, with jigsaw, you know, giving people a choice to like, save themselves or save somebody else. You know, sometimes, I don't feel like they're, you know, they're gruesome but I don't feel like they're mean like it feels like you're like
Alex Ferrari 42:30 I remember hospital being like costal was a hostile to specifically was I agree with you was mean. Yeah, like, there there was just like, I don't want to watch this like this is, then you watch Friday. And you're like, well, this is fun. Like it this is this is just fun. Chucky is you know, like, when when my wife saw Chucky the first time she's like, and she watched it years later after it was really she's like, this is ridiculous. I would just kick the damn thing. It's a doll. Like, it's so it's a doll. What's wrong with you people like it's like, but that's kind of what makes it funny, and that he's so wonderfully written and his dialogue and everything is so yeah. And the bride of Chucky and all of that. It's amazing. Now, what do you feel? Because you've I'm sure read a lot of scripts in your day. What is the biggest mistake you see young screenwriters make?
Jeffrey Reddick 43:24 Um, I don't know if this is a quantitative light. If this is like a literal mistake, I can say I think the problem that I find with a lot of young screenwriters is they think they're great. writers are a script. Right? Right away. Yeah. And, and any, in any, you know, just if you think logically, no matter what if you're no matter what you're, if you're an artist, whether you're a painter or a writer, thing, or you get better with practice, and the more you do it, and if you're a craftsman, if you make stuff out of wood, you get better, like the first thing that you carved out of wood isn't going to be the best thing that's ever been carved out of wood before. So I think the biggest mistake that I see with a lot of young writers is they kind of come out with this attitude. Like, I understand that you have to believe in yourself, because trust me, this business is like, you get rejected, you know, 1000 times and then you get one person saying yes. So you have to keep your ego. You know, you have to keep your spirits up and your ego right sighs but I just see a lot of young writers where they're like, this is the best script, you know, I've ever written and you got to read it. And if you read it, you start giving them notes, they start arguing with you. And you know, not that I think that my notes are the end all be all, but it's like, there's an unwillingness to recognize that they're young, like, trust me my first couple of scripts, I went back and read them. I'm like, wow, these are, you know, years later, like, these are crap. You know, these were awful. I can't believe I thought these were great. But you have I think the biggest mistake young writers make is they don't understand that. You know, it takes You've got to keep doing it to get better. And you know, every script that I write hopefully is better than the last script that I wrote. Because I've learned something in between. So I think being open to that process and realizing it takes time, like there's a lot of people that think there's some easy shortcut, like, and I'm sure you've heard this, too, every time. You know, I speak at a, you know, any place, whether it's a high school or a college or a horror convention, or a screenwriting convention. The two questions that people ask me are, how do I get my script to a studio head? And how do I get financing? How do I get an agent? Yeah. And how do you know and it's like, there aren't any. think that there are like, it literally, like I heard, there was a 10 year old somebody, and I can't remember who it was, I wish I could, somebody very smart and famous at the time, it said you have to be if you're an artist, you have to be willing to dedicate 10 years of your life to struggling before you finally succeed. And they said, we say succeed, we don't mean that you're going to all of a sudden be rich and you know, have all the money in the world, we mean to get something done. And, you know, I thought that Rose Bowl, when I went to you know, New York as I was 19, I got an agent, I was interning at New Line, I was like screw that 10 year rule, it was 10 years to the to the year I graduated high school that I sold final destination. So it took all that time of me writing scripts, getting them rejected, almost getting jobs, not getting them, it took 10 years to actually get my first project like produced and made for when I graduated. So people have that's, you know, I think that's a rule that people need to keep in the back of their head. Because there's so much clutter in the business, where you have people who are like, Alright, I'm going to try this acting thing for two years, because my dad has a lot of money, and I'm pretty, or handsome. And if I don't make it, I'm going to quit. So you, you have like people who are dedicating their lives to this plus, you have all this clutter of hundreds of people coming to Hollywood every day, you know, with with rich families, and you know, their good look, the best looking person at their school. So there, they've got to be the most beautiful. And so you have to outline it's almost like survivor, you have to like Outlast
Alex Ferrari 47:04 What is it? What is it? I'll think out last?
Jeffrey Reddick 47:07 Yeah, it's like, You got it, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta be in it for the long haul. Like, you know, this, this isn't a business, you know, like that you that can be kind of a side hobby. You know, it's something you really have to like, jump into the pool, and you have to, like swim in that pool for up to maybe 10 years. So there aren't, there aren't any shortcuts. You know, because it's even this stuff. Like when I wrote that letter, Bob Shea, I wasn't I didn't have any grand plan about oh, this is going to lead to this. And this and this in the future. I was just like, I have a story I want to tell and I want this. He He owns the he does the Friday movies. And I want him to read it. You know, like that was my only goal. Because I had a story to tell that I wanted somebody to read. So I could never have planned that, oh, he's going to kind of take me under his wing. And then I'm going to get it Yeah, I could I you know, I never planned any of that stuff. So I found that what people call like luck has, has often been years of me working really hard over here and it not paying off like I thought it would but then somebody else on this side of the you know, this side of town reads a script. And they're like, oh, let's call Jeffrey and, you know, so there's been a lot of that. So all the work that you put out there will benefit you somehow, but you just don't always know how it's gonna be. So you can't expect like a shortcut, like, somebody at a convention is going to, you know, have their agent sign you and then all of a sudden you're gonna sell your script and then that's it, you know, it's just
Alex Ferrari 48:40 it's no it there is no shortcut. I completely agree with you. And and I, I we both got wrapped up lots of it in our business, lots of shrapnel, lots of wounds, lots of wounds. And when you say put work out there, you know, when I with this podcast I've been, you know, that's why a lot of podcasts fail because they just like I'm gonna do 20 I'm just gonna keep dude like after 20 they're like, well, no one's listening. I'm not making any money. I gotta go. And it's the outlasted almost all of my contemporaries. And by putting out these episodes, it's amazing. Who listens to this stuff. Yes. And all of a sudden, I get a phone call or I get an email going, Hey, I listened to this one obscure episode. And this guy who directed some of the biggest movies ever wants to be on your show, because it'd be a good fit for what he's doing. Right. I'm like, like, what? Like, how is that? But that's the thing. It's it's putting work out there without any attachment to the outcome? I think is I think the biggest piece of advice.
Jeffrey Reddick 49:38 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Alex Ferrari 49:40 Now, can you tell me about how you transitioned from just being a lowly screenwriter to now being a writer, director of a new film?
Jeffrey Reddick 49:54 Well, yeah, it's so funny because you know in features Yes, the writers are like look slowly at TV.
Alex Ferrari 49:59 But yes,
Jeffrey Reddick 50:00 I started, I worked, I worked. I started working in TV recently, I'm like, I've been missing out. On the party, like the good stuff is in TV, oh my god. But you know, it's it's funny, like I, I had a couple projects that I said, I have to direct these because if I give them away, I already know how people are going to change them. And I These are things I want to direct. And when I first went out with good samaritan, I just went out with it as a project I didn't go out with, you know, with the idea of me directing. But the thing with this story is, you know, you're not sure if it's a supernatural force that's after them. Or if it's a killer that's after them over, it's all on the main character's head because she's had some trauma in her past, and every place that wanted to do the movie was like, just make it straight up supernatural, or just make it a straight up killer. And then we'll do it. And I'm like, but that's not the story, I want to tell like, that's, that's kind of the easy story until like, I want to tell something a little different. So I realized that if I wanted to do this movie, the way that I wrote it, then I would have to direct it myself. And I'd been on enough sets and been a have been in the business long enough that I knew the basics, I directed a short in a in a, you know, like an indie music video for a friend. So, you know, I knew that I knew the basics, but you definitely don't know what you don't know until you actually get on a set and start directing yourself. So, you know, that was a little that was some hubris on my part. I'm thinking, well, I've been on a lot of sets. And I did a short, so I'm ready. That's awesome. But I have to say it was like, such, you know, now that now that we're done, it was it was such a fulfilling experience. And it was such a learning experience, too, because now I know the areas that I need to fill in that I didn't know before. So I'm excited to do it. I'm glad that I did it. It was you know, again, and my friends, always, my director, friends were like, well, you trust me, when you direct your first feature, you're going to be like, screw that I'm never directing again. Or you want to do it again. So I definitely want to do it again. But yeah, the reason the reason for me doing it was out of necessity of not wanting them to change. You know, the story into like, just a straight up supernatural movie or straight up, you know, slasher movie. And it's, you know, like Final, but I mean, this definitely didn't have anywhere near the budget of final destination. But like final destination. It was a, it was a concept where the people that wanted to do or like well, it's not horror, supernatural enough to sell it as a horror movie. And if we sell this as a thriller, then you need a list stars. So we have to get a list stars attached so that, you know that whole all that business kind of crap that came up with even with final destination where people weren't there, like, Oh, you can't do something that's not easily put in a box. I'm just kind of motivated me to like do it myself.
Alex Ferrari 52:50 Yeah. Because you were you were trying to go down the road with the film, like traditional like, go to the studios trying to get financing, do it a little bit, you know, do it the normal way. But you kept getting so much stuff, so much resistance on your vision, you're like, well screw it, let's just go do it indie. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about first of all the name of the movie, what the name of the movie is? And what is it about?
Jeffrey Reddick 53:11 Oh, yeah, the movie is called don't look back. It was originally titled Good Samaritan. Some people might get confused by them. It's called don't look back. And it's about a group of people who see somebody getting fatally assaulted in a park. And they don't help and one of the people and it gets the video goes public, the victim's brother outs, the witnesses and somebody or something starts killing them. So our lead character is a woman named Caitlin who's gone through some trauma in her past. And she's convinced that something supernatural is after them. So she's trying to solve the mystery of who killed the guy in the park. And everybody else is like, there's a killer after us. And then she kind of ends up popping up but a lot of the scenes where the dead people are because she she's kind of seeing these supernatural signs around her that are pointing her into a direction of It's Supernatural, but you're not sure if it's in her head or not. So yeah, that was a bad elevator pitch because I kind of jumped around a little bit.
Alex Ferrari 54:09 I can't I'm gonna have to pass on this one. I can't I can't, I can't I can't finance this one. Jeffrey, I'm sorry. Yes.
Jeffrey Reddick 54:16 Five, six sentences. And, but, but yeah, it's, um, it was it was a really fun film to make. And, you know, again, what was great for me too, is I got to, I just had a lot of creative control, like, again, and there were definitely areas like, with locations and things like that, where we had to, you know, compromise because we didn't have a budget to do certain things. But, you know, I got to work with a wonderful cast. You know, our lead Courtney Bell is a wonderfully talented black actress. And, you know, I got to find the Best Actress for the film who was, you know, a black actress, which, you know, if I done this with a studio, the people that they were throwing at me were, were not, they were like, you know, and you know, that's, that's Always an important that's been important to me for so long because I've written, diverse cast in my films before. And they always end up being cast with all white actors and actresses. And I just tried to explain to people because again, people, when you talk about diversity, it's again, like certain, you know, hackles start rising because people start getting like defensive. But it's, it's, it's more about, you know, when people read scripts in Hollywood, or when they cast movies, their default for every character is a white actor or actress. So that's just the default for a leading, like, we'll send out a casting notice for leading ladies or leading men, and we'll say, you know, all ethnicities, and 99% of the submissions will be white actors and actresses. And even if we send out, you know, note saying, we were looking for black actors and actresses, they'll send us a lot then but then, you know, they're still throwing in more white people at us being like, look at these people first. So for certain roles, people of color are just not in people's brains, even the casting people's brains when it comes to leading roles, and so we're starting to course, correct that now. But it is frustrating when they've cast like, you know, white actors and actresses in roles that were written for people of color. And they always say, well, we just went with the best person. But I've seen so many, I've been in the rooms with casting with people casting projects, and their thinking is what is going to be the most palpable to people across the United States and across the world. And that's why they make that decision most of the time. So now we're seeing that course corrected a little bit. And I've just seen so many wonderfully gifted, lead talented actors and actors of every race, you know, white, Latino, man, you know, Asian, black, it's, there's so many talented people, that just giving people an opportunity that, you know, like Courtney would not have been cast as the lead in a horror film, if it was done by a studio, but I think what people see your performance now they're gonna be like, holy shit, who is this girl? So I'm really excited about that.
Alex Ferrari 57:00 Well, I'm looking forward for it to get to released and I will put links to all of that in the show notes. I am going to now ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What are three horror screenplays every screenwriter should read?
Jeffrey Reddick 57:17 Um, well, I am going to say A Nightmare on Elm Street. I think that's a really, really strong script. I think the A because I consider aliens or a sci fi ish.
Alex Ferrari 57:31 It's it dances the line of horror I get you, I get exactly where you're coming from. There's a monster. a predator arguably is is a monster film. I mean, if you think of monsters of the Frankenstein, and Dracula of our generation is aliens and predators. Yeah. But they they danced the line between action sci fi horror. But yes, aliens. Aliens is just an amazing film period.
Jeffrey Reddick 57:54 And it's a it's such a great script. And that's a script where you can tell a director wrote the script, because when you visualize the movie, you visualize exactly what ended up on the screen. So that's how James wrote that script. But that's probably not a good rule, because I always tell screenwriters not to direct in their scripts.
Alex Ferrari 58:13 But alien, the alien script also was terrifying. Yeah, the original the original alien was terrifying as well.
Jeffrey Reddick 58:21 And what's another great script? I feel like I'm cheating because it's just like, I just think of silence the lambs to like, that was another script that I read that, you know, I'm trying to think of those obscure horror scripts. Like, you know, the scream script is really fantastic.
Alex Ferrari 58:37 Yeah, but extra ILOG extra extra cyst obviously, is is a good screenplay. jaws. I'm not sure if the screenplay is as powerful as the film. I haven't read the screenplay. Have you read the screenplay now? Yeah, I don't know if that translates. But But I think the exorcist if I remember correctly reading that script. That was pretty terrifying.
Jeffrey Reddick 58:59 Yeah, yeah.
Alex Ferrari 59:02 Okay, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?
Jeffrey Reddick 59:11 Write a lot. By, you know, reading scripts online, I think finding a genre that you're passionate about is very important, because they again, the business does tend to pigeonhole you or put you in a box based off your first kind of hit. So I think, you know, if you like, horror, if you like sci fi, feel like action. Find some of your favorite movies in that genre and find the scripts online because reading scripts will give you a lot of, you know, a lot of inspiration and, you know, even instruction on how to write stuff. So I think that's really important. And I tell people to it's like, you know, we live in an age now where people can shoot movies like 4k movies on their iPhone. And, you know, the reason you write a script is because you want to get it made. And if you're I think if you're a young screenwriter, especially surround yourself with the creative people like find a good friend of yours who's a director. You're especially if you're in like school, studying screenwriting, you know, like, I was talking to Craig Perry at UCLA to like their screenwriting class and Craig asked the class you know, screenwriters, raise your hands, directors, raise your hands. And he's like, how many of you all hang out together, and none of them did. And Craig's like, guys, you're crazy. Like, you're a writer, you should be a director, you should be hanging out with the writers because you need scripts to write. And I think people don't think that way. When you're, when you're younger, it's like you think a little bit more myopically. And I think if you think about that, you know, connecting yourself with a good director writing a really amazing short and having a director direct, it can get you a lot of attention. You know, I think that that those are the things like it's, it's continued making sure that you keep growing as a as an artist, like, have friends who will give you honest feedback, you'll, you'll find out your friends pretty quickly, you'll have the friends that hate everything you do, like, you don't need those friends to give, because they just hate it, they're gonna hate everything you do. And you don't want your mom reading your script, because she's gonna love everything you write. But you'll find that right balance that people who give you constructive criticism, and it's just be open in that to be open to learning more, because you're always going to grow as an artist.
Alex Ferrari 1:01:13 And what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
Jeffrey Reddick 1:01:21 What if I haven't learned it completely. Trying to control things that I have no control over? is, is, is the lesson of life that I still also struggle with? You know, I still try it. I try not to, but I think it's a very important lesson is to, to, you know, let go and let God because there are certain things, you know, you can beat your head against the wall for 20 years trying to do something or, or be angry about something that you have no control over and kind of letting that go as much as possible, I think, let you have a much less stressful life. And you can kind of go along with the flow of life. Like when you know, when the acting thing hit a wall for me. I didn't quit the business. I started writing, you know. So it's kind of going with that flow and seeing what life brings your way being open about. Jeffrey, I
Alex Ferrari 1:02:09 really appreciate you being on the show. Thank you so much. I want to congratulate you on making the jump from screenwriter to Writer Director and finally getting I know that's a big step. It is a big step. It's not done very often. It's definitely not done well very often. So I am I am I congratulate you. And thank you for bringing Final Destination into our into our world into the Zeitgeist. It is still very entertaining when I go back and watch those films. So thank you so much for everything you do my friend and I continue success.
Jeffrey Reddick 1:02:45 Thank you for all your support. And yeah, yeah, just now you got me all like blushy Yeah, I just really, I do. I appreciate the support. You've been a great supporter for so long. So and you know, you know, I've got your back on this side, too.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:59 Thank you, my friend. I want to thank Jeffrey for coming on the show and dropping the horrific knowledge bombs on the bulletproof screenwriting tribe today. Thank you so much, Jeffrey. Please don't forget to check out his new film, don't look back and get links to that. And anything else we spoke about in this episode, after show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/090. And if you guys haven't checked it out already, please head over to ifhacademy.com. And check out all of our amazing courses, including screenwriting courses, how to get money for your film, how to produce a film, film distribution, blueprint and so many more courses and education to help you guys on your path. So thank you again for listening. If you are going to go trick or treating, please, please be safe. And as always keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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