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BPS 145: How I Write and Direct My Feature Films with Edgar Wright

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In the house, today is the iconic screenwriter and director, of Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Shaun of the Dead and Blockbuster hit, Baby Driver, Edgar Wright. Edgar has been on the scene making and writing satirical genre films, while also acting for almost thirty years. 

He’s here today to talk about his most recent and upcoming film, Last Night In Soho. It is set for release on October 29, 2021, and stars the Queen’s Gambit star, Anya Taylor-Joy. The “Last Night in Soho” title is taken from a song by those Tarantino soundtrack favorites Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich.

The film’s plot: Eloise, a young woman with a passion for fashion design and a strange sixth sense, finds herself transported back in time to 1966 London in the body of an iconic nightclub singer of the era named Sandie. While in Sandie’s body, Eloise begins a romantic relationship; but she begins to realize that Sandie’s life in the Swinging Sixties is not as glamorous as it appears to be and both past and present begin to fall apart with horrifying consequences. 

Edgar is the ultimate creator. He’s worked across several genres of entertainment besides films. Some of the said expansion includes television, and music videos production, as well as video games.

Like most up-and-coming creators and filmmakers, we start off on a budget. Edgar began making independent short films around 1993 before making his first feature film A Fistful of Fingers in 1995. 

Some other projects he created and directed are the 1996 comedy series, Asylum, the 1999 sitcom, Spaced, and about twenty-plus others since then.

Edgar also created one of the most beloved films in all of geekdom, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.

In a magically realistic version of Toronto, a young man must defeat his new girlfriend’sseven evil exes one by one in order to win her heart. Scott Pilgrim plays in a band which aspires to success. … No one knows what her past is, but Scott will find out very soon as he tries to make Ramona his new girlfriend.

In 2017, he made waves at the Box office with Baby Driver, grossing $226 million globally. The commercial success of the film was due to the positive word-of-mouth support and flagging interest in blockbuster franchises. 

Baby Driver starred Ansel Elgort, who played the role of a getaway driver seeking freedom from a life of crime with his girlfriend, played by Lily James.

Other A-list actors joined the supporting cast of the film– the likes of  Jon Hamm, Eiza González, Jamie Foxx, and Jon Bernthal. The Sony Pictures distributed film earned numerous nominations; including three Academy Awards, two BAFTA Film Awards, and two Critics’ Choice Awards.

It was exciting chatting up with Edgar about his signature editing style, writing, and the success of his career.

Please enjoy my conversation with Edgar Wright, and be sure to check out his film Last Night in Soho which comes out tomorrow.

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Alex Ferrari
I like to welcome to the show, Edgar Wright. How you doing Edgar?

Edgar Wright
I'm good. How you doing?

Alex Ferrari
I'm doing great, man. I'm doing great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I I had the pleasure of watching your hypnotic, beautifully haunting film Last Night in Soho yesterday, and it was beautiful man, it was really, really well. It's like I was telling, telling someone earlier today, it's just so nice. watching a film when you have a filmmaker, a storyteller. You're in good hands. So thank you!

Edgar Wright
Ohh thank you!

Alex Ferrari
So, um, I wanted to jump in first and ask you what was the film that lit the fuse for you to become a filmmaker?

Edgar Wright
I think um, well, it wasn't exactly a film, but it was like a documentary about a filmmaker and it was related to the films. So I was a big film fan from a very early age. And you know, the first time I ever saw was style or size of that generation where, you know, my parents, two brothers each style was Superman Raiders, like Close Encounters, like, and I had a healthy interest in, in genre through that and you know, and certainly through like horror and sci fi and lots of films that I I wanted to see but wasn't old enough to see. thing so I was always interested in in films and in genre. But then the thing that kind of really flipped a switch in terms of I want to be a director, was a documentary on British TV called the incredibly strange film show, which was hosted by Jonathan Ross, you can actually find it on YouTube. And they would eat, they would do. They would do profiles on different directors. They do like Russ Meyer, Jackie Chan, George Romero, john waters, and this is on like network TV. And then there was one episode about Sam Raimi and watching that episode, and at that point, I hadn't seen Evil Dead or evil there too, but I certainly knew what they weren't. And because my parents didn't have a VCR, like, it was films that I was like too young to see at that point, but also, you know, it was not like I was able to see them even on VHS at that point. But seeing this documentary about Sam Raimi and seeing his story about being a teenage filmmaker and basically making a movie in Michigan did just kind of blew my head off I just thought wow, okay, that's what I want to do. And so because around the same time my parents bought me and my brother a secondhand separate camera, it was one of those presidents which went over you know, like a joint like Christmas and birthday present Of course, this was like for me and my brother so it was like one present went over for events. That's awesome. Hi, so my mom dad really so this was this was like a big deal present and so but so I had this separate camera and then I saw this documentary where Sam Raimi was making super eight films at school and then like you know, a matter of years later he's making a horror movie. So I just like completely that was the lightbulb moment and then after that I saw Evil Dead two first and then later saw Evil Dead because there was a period where it was banned in the UK and earlier not so that was the thing it was sort of like evil that too but through this documentary

Alex Ferrari
So so that brings me to your to the next question. Dead Right? I how did you get? How did you make it? I know we shot on super, super VHS for everyone listening Dead Right was one of your first short films, correct?

Edgar Wright
I mean, it's not a short film. It's like 70.

Alex Ferrari
It's quote unquote, a short film.

Edgar Wright
Um, so I, the first thing I did was make shorts in my school friends. And, you know, based around like impressions of celebrities that they could do. So I did this kind of silly, like, sort of so action spoof. That was about five minutes long. I won't mention like the name of the film because the the celebrity that it was based on has been involved in tech and national scandal.

Alex Ferrari
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Edgar Wright
Just happily like white from my CV. Yes. American people understand it is but British people were so I just I skip over that one. Sure. He's kinda like city comedy shorts. And then I made an animated film. For competition on TV, about wheelchair access in cinemas for this comic relief and So this national competition and I won the competition and I won a video camera which I previously would not have been able to afford. So once I got the video camera then it was around the time I was like 17 then I was really off to the races where I started making these longer form light films with my friends at school, one of which was dead right? So I did like I did three I did that superhero movie, it was called carbolic soap. Then I did a Western fistful of fingers not not not the film version, the video version, like the video version and then the final one I did was an It was a cop film called dead right, which was i'd shot like, over like Easter's, and summers, and I think there's like there's a lot of people in that movie I kind of figured as a sort of indie filmmaker or amateur filmmaker, that the more people that were in it, the more people might buy a copy

Alex Ferrari
It's great marketing good marketing.

Edgar Wright
People might buy a copy and the more family members might buy it like dead right and I was only 18 I think I sold like kind of 200 copies of it. And like 10 pounds each or something like that. go nuts nothing bad nothing better

Alex Ferrari
That to better return at all. Now what were some of the biggest lessons you learn from shooting those early films and I'm assuming dead right by the way was like a precursor to Hot Fuzz.

Edgar Wright
I mean, I didn't know that at the time Sure, of course. I mean, in a weird way the thing the thing actually sort of I think for I thought about kind of doing something more with dead right but then in a weird way Hot Fuzz is an inversion of dead re dead right there's this kind of like without without any like explanation. Like my friend Edward Scotland was playing like an American cop in you know, we're in like Somerset, where I was, where I'm from. And there was no explanation for why there was an American cop in this town. But then in a weird way the whole process was so doing some of the same things but just inverting it like so it was like doing an American style cop film in an English village with English actors. So that to me was more interesting than the idea of just having like a sort of, you know, I mean it dirty Harry's boobs had been done to death by that point you know, but that's it that's what I did did right. I think the thing I learned and this is something that I learned during my own stuff where I was like shooting and editing myself is the lesson that I learned that then you know, I kind of didn't kind of take heat up on the next thing. I think the thing that I learned during this stuff on video was just about coverage and editing because I did write I operated it I edited it you know i was i was there wasn't cameraman it was just me. Whatever Tree Lighting there was just me but thing is I just knew like WhatsApp very quickly, what how many shots and angles you need to edit something. And so kind of the best way of like learning how to direct is like, watching your favorite movies how they're constructed and trying to copy that you know, so the thing that thing Yeah, so so that was the big lesson was just kind of learning about coverage and editing itself.

Alex Ferrari
How did you edit? Did you ever like between VCRs

Edgar Wright
Yeah, like crash edited? Yeah, I've got pretty good at it as well. So did I back in the day. When I went to art college, I went to art college to do audio visual design, and I couldn't get onto the film course I wanted to get onto they said I was too young and said I should go on this other course first, which was like a audio visual design like a foundation course. But they had an edit suite they're like a tape to tape thing. And because it was in Bournemouth, which was a coastal town in the UK, it was like a beach town. Something was interesting as whenever the weather was good, nobody would be a college. Like everybody would go to the beach and the college campus would be deserted. And I took advantage of that because I think in as you can see, I'm not really a sun person. So I was told on my you know, classmates off down the beach sunning themselves, I'm going to get in that edit. So sometimes I'd sort of take the key and I go in on like Saturdays and Sundays and I just learn how to edit. And I'd be editing dead right on that machine tape to tape. And also, I would put together compilations of film clips, like to music, and I also sometimes would re edit movies like I had Evil Dead when it was released on video was re released. Cut by like kind of two minutes by the bbfc that a friend of mine at college had an uncut copy of Evil Dead, which was like ninth generation so it was pretty gnarly, but I thought Well, if I take my first generation copy of the cut version, and then I splice back in the cut bits, then it will be better than the ninth generation version. I remember telling Sam Raimi, I met Sam and I told him this story that I'd actually like, splice together my own VHS copy if he were dead. And I think he looked at me like I was insane.

Alex Ferrari
That's awesome. Now you I mean, you obviously a very prolific writer, how do you approach writing? Do you start with characters? Do you start with plot? What is your approach?

Edgar Wright
I mean, usually there's a storyline. I mean, certainly in in, in some cases, the storyline is very clear in my head, as it was with last night. And so with baby driver it sight eyes, he sort of had had a general idea, but it kept sort of just kind of like developing. But when I'm actually writing, I even if I have the story, a big part of it is just kind of like, I would call it creative procrastination, like you're in the lead up to writing, you're just like reading a lot like reading a lot of research, and listening to lots of stuff that's like, I like you to use music as inspiration. Or, you know, in the case of Soho, he was a lot of watching a lot of films of the period, not not horror films, or thrillers, but just like dramas and documentaries about the period. So it's just that thing to kind of get you in the mood. I think there's that point where you kind of keep sort of creatively procrastinating until, you know, your treatment document gets so much bigger and bigger to the point where now I'm writing screenplays. So it's not necessarily the most efficient way of doing something. But the way that I tend to work, it's a bit different when you have a co writer because then then you know, then it can be a bit more formal. Because, you know, with last and so her whichever it was Kristin was in Cannes, she came on to write the screenplay with me at a point where I had the story sort of, kind of pretty clear, when it was all mapped out. And tons of research, but it was a matter of like then Okay, let's sit down and write the screenplay.

Alex Ferrari
Right? So when you have a partner that keep you honest, is basically what you're saying.

Edgar Wright
So it goes both ways. I mean, I feel like somebody is always gonna be good cop and bad cop. Simon Pegg and he won't, he won't. You won't be annoyed that I say this and he cannot deny it. But definitely in the writing of like Shawn and hot furs. I was definitely good cop. I was like the headmaster, cracking the whip was kind of trying to sort of negotiate down the amount of time we spent in the writing room on a daily basis. Simon is an amazing writer. So it kind of all worked out. But I always found it funny that he was always you know, wheedling around, like, Hey, I might not be able to make it in until, you know, brilliant is, you know,

Alex Ferrari
Now, you've I mean, you've directed some amazing action sequences. I mean, from Scott Pilgrim and obviously, baby driver, how do you approach directing some of these big set pieces? I mean, baby driver alarm had so many car chases, and like big stuff going on, how do you approach it as a director? How do you even approach going to that?

Edgar Wright
I think just a lot of planning basically, I mean, in the cases of Scott Pilgrim and baby driver, you know, you I storyboard everything and you do like and yes obviously is what's written on the page which is almost like it's the screenplay but it's kind of like a beat sheet of what's going to happen then you draw it and then working with a stunt team that is embellished especially with something that Scott Pilgrim with like martial arts is that you know, we would draw like the key frames the what like sadly Les Brown would do is like sort of like he would do the sort of like, for every frame is like kind of like five to eight days. So you know, it's a kind of like sort of like brilliantly embellish on like the drawings because you don't like literally draw every punch with baby driver like there was so much more interesting situation where we have the songs and we know what the duration of the songs are. So we're kind of condensing the action into the songs which is quite good way to do it in a way because sometimes on big budget action movies, they just like shoot and shoot and shoot and just figure out on the Edit and they don't really have like the kind of like the shape of the sequence. But with baby driver and also with last night Sarah which isn't action but similar thing. The scene is only as long as the song so if you have the song kind of locked down and you know what that is, then it's like you kind of fit the story in the action into that and it's quite a good kind of gives you you know, really hard like You know, kind of limits basically, it's so easy because you're not going to start extending the music. It's like, let's make it fit into the song. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari
You're backing in, you're backing into it.

Edgar Wright
Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari
Now, you have also done some, I mean, your comedy and your action. I mean, you You're so known for both those elements and balancing them so well, as a filmmaker, as a writer, how any advice on how to balance comedy and action in the way that you do I mean, even baby driver had, especially the Michael Myers sequence, you know, with the band, how do you balance the two?

Edgar Wright
I guess it's just like, the comedy comes from the characters. So I guess it's sort of if you've got, you know, like, the characters have good voices, and they have their kind of like, strengths and weaknesses, and their attitudes are well defined, then the comedy just comes out of that, you know, so, you know, that Michael Myers scene is just the idea of like, the sort of the one gang member who's kind of, you know, not not quite listened to the debrief. I mean, it's funny, actually, they sort of keep reading on the internet. It's like one of those kind of like, facts, true, you know, trivia facts that goes out there. And it's wrong. Like people say, oh, Edgar Wright wanted to use the Michael Myers mask, and couldn't, they wouldn't, you know, the sort of the Halloween like sort of owners wouldn't let him use it. So he asked Mike Myers instead and got the Austin Powers miles. And that's not true. The original, the original scene was supposed to be to Michael Myers masks from Halloween, and one often powers mask. And that was the joke, because even in the setup of the scene, doc says bio masks separately, so it doesn't look suspicious. So the idea is that they've all gone to the same job separately and bought the masks, but one of them has got the wrong one. So that was the original scene. And then like very close to the shoe, we sort of, we were told that we did have the Halloween mask, and then it was clear that we didn't and to be fair to the, you know, the kind of the owners of the Halloween franchise, they just didn't want the mask to be used in a funny sequence, which is fair. So as soon as I knew that wasn't happening, I called Mike Myers, who had already signed off on the Austin Paris thing and said, hey, I've got a situation I don't have the Halloween mask late. And I sort of So I sort of said, What if it was three awesome powers maths, and luckily, he was like, yeah, great, you know, fine. So I guess you know, I didn't answer your question.

Alex Ferrari
No, no, no, you actually no, it was perfectly exactly fine. No, I think it's like you said the characters. If the characters are well defined, you kind of just throw them together. And, you know, chaos ensues in comedy ensues in so many ways.

Edgar Wright
Yeah, it's all depends on what it is. I mean, in the case of things like shown in the den in the worlds and it's like taking real people and putting them in a fantastical situation, right and the comedy in showing the den and worlds n for example, comes from sort of real grounded, quite naturalistic characters reacting to something absolutely insane. And that was always the thing is that that was the kind of the key thing was showing the dead when we were writing it. And also trying to get across to people was that we didn't want it to be broad. We want it to be real. And this sort of like keep the situation keep the situation serious, like the zombie, like serious and scary and could kill you. And there's the zombies aren't doing anything funny. It's like the cat, the human characters doing the funny stuff. But then even all of their reactions are we just tried to ground it in what we think we would do in that situation, or how kind of like useless we would be in that situation.

Alex Ferrari
Now your new film last night and so how, how did that come to be? I mean, that is a it's a very specific story to come out of your dreams. How did that come out?

Edgar Wright
I think it's like a sort of combination of things. I mean, one part of it is just having grown out with my parents record collection, which was all 16 Records. And there's that box well otherwise, say I had this box, they had a box of records, and they never seen when I was growing up, play those records anymore. So I sort of like you know, when I probably bet as early as six or seven, kind of inherited the vinyl player and put it in my room and just listen to their records. And they didn't have it's funny the records seem to stop down at 1972. So no 70s records or early 80s Records, it was just like this to their albums that they they bought before. So I just use this as that a lot. And then through that you start to form a perception of the decade of obsession with it and a decade that I was not born in I you know, like so obsessed with the decade before you. So that's really interesting. To me, and then. And then that kind of develops in terms of like I kept having sort of time travel fantasies about going back to the 60s, when it'd be great to go back to swing in London wouldn't be great to go to this club or see this film or do that show. And then the more I would think about it, and the more it would kind of just become an ongoing obsession, I started to wonder why that was, and whether that was healthy, and was nostalgia itself, like a failure to deal with the present day was I in retreat. So all of these things start to formulate. And then the other big inspiration, aside from the genre elements are in the film, but the other big inspiration is just being in London, like I've lived in London for 27 years, and I spent more time in the Soho neighborhood than any like couch in any apartment that I've ever lived in. And that place is very sort of, like compelling and somewhat disturbing, sometimes, in terms of a slant entertainment district, like it's the home of the big nightlife district. And right in the middle of London, it's the heart of the film and TV industry. But it also, you know, certainly going back is kind of the heart of the underworld, and the sex industry. And all of these things kind of strangely sort of coexist, like now the Soho that today is sort of been gentrified, in a way, but not quite, it still has the thing that after midnight, the other Soho starts to kind of make itself known. So it's a very, very interesting and odd place, it literally feels a bit like midnight, like Brigadoon the other Soho appears. And so it's a very sort of compelling and interesting place. And I'm the sort of person who can't walk around the city and not thinking about the past. And you know, when you're in buildings that are like hundreds of years old. You know, I'm the sort of person like Eloise in the movie who starts to wonder what these walls seen.

Alex Ferrari
Now, one last question, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today or screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Edgar Wright
I think it's a matter of like, finding your own voice. And I think the key thing is, and this is a difficult thing to do, the key thing is, is do things that you want to do, not things that you think you ought to do, I think sort of like, just kind of chase after things that you think other people want to see, rather than what you really want to do. Like, you know, you could certainly have success with that, but it but it's things that are from the heart or things that are real passion of yours will always I think score kind of like higher eventually. I guess as well, like, you know, in this day and age, there's more chance of getting your work out there than ever before. I mean, I know that kind of sounds like a pet response. But it's true just in terms of, you know, like people getting their shorts seen on you know, kind of various digital platforms wherever it's like, that wasn't something that existed when I was growing up. So you know, in terms of what people can do, just on social media, or even like on Tick Tock or whatever, or you see this kind of amazing things. People shooting stuff around the world. That doesn't I mean, I'm sure if I was like, sort of like that existed then when I was a teenager, I'd be like shooting kind of like silly comic comedy shorts and putting them online, you know.

Alex Ferrari
So in other words, you didn't look at Shaun of the Dead and said, where the money is, is obviously zombie comedies. And that's why I'm going to do shout out the day. You actually did because it came from the heart.

Edgar Wright
Well, at that time as well when we first started writing it in 2000 You know, there were there weren't there were the zombie film seems amazing to think of this because now you can't kind of move without knocking over a zombie film. Back then it was like the zombies it's sort of been gone from the Zeitgeist, you know, they've been sort of like died off kind of in the 90s essentially zombie movies. And it was around the time when the Resident Evil games were coming out. That's sort of what got me in Simon talking about it through the TV show, we did space. But when we started writing, showing the dead, it wasn't like they were really any other zombie movies on the horizon at all. Maybe there was the Resident Evil movie was the only one. Right? And we were writing the movie. I remember this. I remember vividly Simon calling me saying, hey, if he had the Danny Boyle is doing a zombie movie. And I was like, What the fuck? The first time I heard of 28 days later, and I was so mad. I was so absolutely livid because I was like, No, we're doing a zombie film. And as it turned out, in a weird way, I when I saw the movie, which I think came out maybe like 18 months before ours. You know, it wasn't anything like shown in the dead end in a strange way. It kind of probably tee this up, you know, in the sense that like, You know I think in a way like it helped showing the dead right and then you know, so it was it was actually sort of like a blessing in a way.

Alex Ferrari
Thank you so much for being on the show man I appreciate it and congrats on the new film man. It is a fantastic Feat. So continued success to you, my friend keep please keep making movies.

Edgar Wright
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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BPS 144: A Writer’s Guide to TV Development with Kelly Edwards

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This week I had the pleasure of sitting down with writer, producer, former studio executive and diversity thought leader Kelly Edwards. Many of us want to be able to pitch our shows to a network or studio but just don’t know how the game is played. Kelly not only knows how the game is played she wrote a book on how to do it.

Her new book is The Executive Chair: A Writer’s Guide to TV Series Development. 

To make compelling television, our industry depends on enthusiastic new voices with fresh ideas. While there are plenty of books about the mechanics of writing, this is the first time an insider has detailed the invaluable TV executive perspective. As key pieces of the entertainment puzzle, executives hold institutional wisdom that seldom gets disseminated outside network walls.

The Executive Chair breaks down the business from the gatekeeper’s point of view, illuminating the creative process used by those who ultimately make the decisions. Whether developing a project for the entertainment marketplace or merely probing the executive mindset, The Executive Chair dispels myths about the creative process and takes the reader through the development of a pilot script.

“There are a million ways to break into Hollywood. Your journey will be unique to you. Meet all the people. Work all the angles. But most of all, enjoy the ride.” – Kelly Edwards

Kelly Edwards recently transitioned from inside the network ranks into a writing and producing deal with HBO under her Edwardian Pictures banner.

In her former executive role, she oversaw all of the emerging artists programs for HBO, HBOMax, and Turner. The pilots she produced through the HBOAccess Writing and Directing fellowships have screened at major film festivals including Tribeca and SXSW, and garnered multiple awards.

Prior to HBO, Edwards was a key corporate diversity executive at Comcast/NBCUniversal for over five years where she oversaw over 20 divisions, launched employee resource groups, and introduced diverse creative talent to NBC, USA, Syfy, Bravo, and Telemundo.

Edwards’ career spans both television and film. Early in her career, she worked as a creative executive in features at both Disney and Sony under such talents as Garry Marshall and Laura Ziskin.  After moving to television, she served as a senior executive at FOX where she developed LIVING SINGLE, CLUELESS, and THE WILD THORNBERRYS.  While heading up UPN’s Comedy division as the SVP of Comedy Development she developed GIRLFRIENDS, THE PARKERS, and MALCOLM IN THE MIDDLE.

In 2000, Edwards co-founded the non-profit organization Colour Entertainment, a networking group for diverse creative executives in TV, Film, Digital, as well as assistants, all designed to connect current and future industry executives with one another.

Kelly and I had an amazing conversation about the business, how to pitch a television project to a studio, and much more. Enjoy!

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome to the show Kelly Edwards how you doin' Kelly?

Kelly Edwards 0:14
I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:16
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm excited to talk to you because you've got your new book coming out the executive chair, which is the executives point of view for of the entire television process, and actually what it takes to make a television show and all of that, and I really wanted to kind of dig in, because that's kind of the mystery that's like, the man or woman behind the curtain for a lot of writers. Yeah, they want to know what's going on. They all want to go to oz.

Kelly Edwards 0:44
Everybody wants to go does everybody thinks they want to go to oz?

Alex Ferrari 0:49
Oh, I understand. Everybody wants to be in the film business.

Kelly Edwards 0:52
There are a lot of wicked witches in Oz.

Alex Ferrari 0:56
And there's not nearly enough houses dropping on them. Anyway. So how did you get started in the business?

Kelly Edwards 1:04
Oh, well, let's see, I got into the business right after college, I came home. And my dad's like, you've got to, you've got to get a job. And I'm kicking you out of the house. And so I knew I needed to work. And I always wanted to be a part of the industry. I just didn't know in what capacity. And I ended up getting a sort of a hookup from a friend who was working for a very well known manager, talent manager. And he was leaving the job. And there was another person coming in a month later. And they said, Oh, would you bridge the gap between, you know, him leaving and this new person coming in, and it was only a month. And so I went to work for this manager. And then I proceeded to be terrible at it. I was just an awful assistant. And I screwed up more things than I care to admit. And before I got fired, there was another job across the street working for a casting company called the casting company. And I went I worked work there and vowed to be a better assistant that I had been before. And that was sort of you know, I was off to the races it was. I've always said that every job that I've ever had in this business has been a hook up for a friend from a friend. So one thing has led to another and led to another. I've never gotten a job as a cold call. I've never just blindly sent my internet my resume in and it had an interview. It's always been there's been some connective tissue from the last job to the next job. And so I got on this road working through as an assistant for this casting company. And one of the casting directors who was their days champion happened to be friends with a guy named Jerry was again, who was just coming off of a deal. He's just been writing with Don Segal on the Jeffersons and they were looking for an assistant. So I went to work for them. And that really was the real, I think, kickoff to what I'm doing now because I was a writer's assistant, and we were in development. And then there was a they had a show on CBS. And they weren't development on a number of projects. And I got to see the real nitty gritty of not only being in production, but also the develop development process from the writer side. And I really thought I was going to be a writer than but looking around the landscape of television at the time, there wasn't a lot of black women on shows. And, and so I decided, well look, I've got to get a job because my dad's breathing down my neck and I've got to make some money. And and so I ended up I end up going into the into the executive route, which I loved. And, you know, it was still working with the written word, it was still working with writers it was still being super, super creative. And I I went on that road for many, many years, I started in features, and then went into film, and I'm sorry, pictures. And then when I went into television and rose up the rings on the television side and then watch it at Fox worked at UPN as the head of comedy development and then decided that I needed to have another skill set because you know, there's a life expectancy to every executive and I could see my expiration date coming down the pike. And I left UPN to go have my own production company, I partnered up with a guy named Jonathan Axelrod, who had a deal at Paramount And together, we were in business for about six years, we had a show on the air, and I got to see, you know, the selling side of it, which was an incredibly important piece of the puzzle. Because as a buyer, you know, you're in this reactionary, you're receiving pitches, but you're not really in it. And then as the as the seller, and working with the studios and then going out and pitching. I was learning a whole new skill set that was really, really important to having career longevity. And so I did that for about six years and then We founded the company in 2007. And, and I went to work for NBC Universal on in the diversity capacity. And it was a very big corporate job. And I had 20 networks reporting to me and did a lot of work with the presidents of all the different divisions. We did a lot of diversity workouts and a lot of big, big gigantic projects in the diversity space. And then I went to HBO, to work for to set up their their diversity efforts, which really consisted of the writers and directors, programs, a set of topics and some photographers programs, and a lot of emerging artists programs over there.

And then, and then at the top of last year, they came to me and said, there have been a big shift, because, you know, the at&t merger had happened. And a lot of things were changing. A lot of people were, were changing chairs over there. And they came to me with a with a big offer and said, Look, you could have this, this huge, huge increase in pay, we're going to give you worldwide diversity. And you know, don't you want to do this. And I said, I said no, because by that time, over the last couple of years, I had gone back to, to school to get my MFA in screenwriting in TV writing. And also I had gotten into Sundance and the experience of those two things together really showed me that I had really been living in the wrong skin for a long time, I was probably supposed to be a writer all along. And I had poured all of my energy into making other people's dreams come true, and helping them and really learning along the way as I was teaching them about television writing. And this was my chance to do it on my own. And it was a huge risk, because, you know, you've given up a 401k and a Cush paycheck every other week, and great healthcare to, to go off on my own and start my own thing. So that was a long story. That's the that's the whole that's the whole megillah about how I got from here. But it's been a crazy, crazy, fulfilling last 12 months that I have been on my own. I do this, I'm gonna say it's a first look, HBO deal, but also I'm on a staff of a show. So it's, it's my dream has really come true over the last 12 months. And I feel like I feel so renewed where I feel like you know, many people get to this part in their career, and they just kind of go well, let me just write it out until retirement, I only have a few more years left for me just sort of enjoy it. And I'm just getting started.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Yeah. And you know, what I love about your story is that, and this is only because of age, because as we get older, we don't realize this when we're in our 20s or even our 30s for that matter, is that your I love the comment I was in the wrong skin the entire time. And we don't kind of realize what makes us happy, too late or some people are very lucky they get that right away. But most of us don't. And but we played in the arena. We weren't the gladiators but we but we help the gladiators put their armor on. Right We were next to it. We could smell it. We organize the the the battles, if you will, if you use this analogy, but we really wanted to be in the arena. And I did that for a long time. I mean, I wasn't sure I wanted to be a director. And before I started directing, was imposed and I lived in post I was like I'm close to it. I'm adding skill sets. And that's great for a year or two but then you fast forward 10 or 15 years just like am I I'm not happy anymore. I'm like I'm not happy at this. I got to do what I love and then when I start doing what I love, then that's what made me happy. I think that's a big big lesson everyone listening should really understand is Be true to that voice inside of you. Because you can you can muffle that voice for years. It'll come back, it'll come back out. It'll come back out at one point. But you're like I've turned down my God when I was I only had two staff jobs ever in my life and I got fired promptly from both of them because I was so miserable in them, but they were Cush jobs, obscene money for the time, and I just let but I'm not happy. So it's not about the money and it's not about this it's like you guys very seductive though. Oh, so I said oh man not having to hustle for that check every week. As you know, freelancing you gotta hustle. But when you got that check coming in. oh 401k oh, I don't have to worry about healthcare. Oh it's it's it's very seductive. But it's something

Kelly Edwards 9:37
Your soul could die a little every day inside. Oh I was feeling I was feeling after a while that my soul was dying. And I knew that if even if I got out and did it for only a month or two months or I you know if I had to go back and you know, you know work work for McDonald's or you know, scrape tar For somebody shoe or something after that, that that, however many months I had would have been worth it. And that's when you know that you just have to do something, it's sort of like when we get what I think of. I'm not even sure if I'm going to articulate this well, but it's almost as though you have this light inside you. And you know that if you keep keep trying to patch it over, you know, you keep trying to sort of put something or said it doesn't really shine, but then eventually it's going to eke out somewhere, it's gonna burst out somewhere. And you might as well just open up the bag and just let it burst out everywhere. Because I've literally never had this much joy in my entire life in any job. And I loved my job. I loved working, you know, in development, it was a great experience. But there's nothing that compares to what what I've been living this last year.

Alex Ferrari 10:50
And we were talking a little bit before the before we started recording about the angry and bitter filmmaker and screenwriter. And, like, I always think the joke is, you know, in front of a film of an audience, I'll go everybody here knows an angry and bitter filmmaker. And if you don't know an angry, bitter filmmaker, screenwriter, you are the angry and bitter screenwriter, those angry and bitter filmmakers and screenwriters are the people who are not doing what they love to do, and they're in a job or in a place, that they're not fulfilling what they want, generally speaking, right? They're probably variations. But because I was, I was pissed. I was so bitter and angry. And I used to be in an editing room. And I used to see like a 25 year old walk in with a $3 million movie I'm like, and I'm looking at the movie. I'm like, this movie sucks. I'm fixing everything for this guy. And he does. He's never even seen Blade Runner. What's going on? Like, it's

Kelly Edwards 11:43
So so what changed for you then

Alex Ferrari 11:46
40

Kelly Edwards 11:49
Okay,

Alex Ferrari 11:49
40, I was 40. And I launched Indie Film Hustle. And the film also was the thing that really took me to a place of happiness, because I was able to give back I found my I found my calling, my calling is to be an artist, and to be a creative, but in the film possible, affords me the opportunity to do that, whenever I want, when and, and also, my joy comes from writing a book, doing a podcast, writing an article, show a movie, shooting a movie, uh, speaking in front of people, I found all of that, and I was like, Oh, great, I don't have just one outlet anymore. Because if I can't, because that sucks. When you only have one outlet, if that outlet closes, you're screwed, I found five or six or eight different things that make me truly happy that gets me up in the morning. And, and they all work within the same world for the most part. So that's what kind of, and then when I turned 30, I was like, I gotta I gotta go shoot a movie. And I want to try to film my first feature, sold it to Hulu, and, you know crowdfunded into the whole thing. And that was that that was a turning point, really. But it was the audience that really gave me the strength to do that I was, I was scared to do that prior to having any film hustle. So for me, it was just like, you know what, I'm gonna go do this. And if it doesn't work, I got I got my show, and come back to my show. You know, and, and also just the joy I get to meet meeting people like yourself, you know, to sit down and talk to someone like you for an hour, there's people out there that would kill to have that opportunity to get that kind of access to someone like yourself, or any of the other wonderful guests, I get on my show. And I get that opportunity daily or weekly. And that is massive. And I get to talk to people at a very high level in the industry, and very high level executives and high level writers and Oscar winners and all this kind of stuff. And it just, it gets me jazzed.

Kelly Edwards 13:48
Right. So well you know, you said a couple of things that I think are really interesting. First of all, you didn't really wait for anybody else to give you that opportunity. Correct. You made that opportunity and not only that, but you said you found many avenues for that. And I love to tell people sometimes your vision you can't have such a myopic vision of what success looks like that you think oh I need to work at x like if you said you know to yesterday tomorrow whenever I want to go work at ABC you would then work you would then completely miss working for Hulu and working for you know, audible like your your creative muscle might might be doing something completely different. That still gives you that same satisfaction. And I think you did that you found the speaking you found the book, you found the podcast, you found the film. All of those are creative endeavors. And you're able to get that satisfaction of that love and that joy in your in your life through things that didn't necessarily look like well, I had to do my $50 million universal picture. Because I think that's what we sometimes when we when we think about oh we want this career. That's what it looks like.

Alex Ferrari 14:59
Oh

Kelly Edwards 15:00
All the things that can give you joy.

Alex Ferrari 15:02
Oh, there's absolutely no question. And I know people listening right now are like, well, what is what is success for you? Well, I have to go win an Oscar, I have to work on $100 million movie, I have to go work for Marvel or I have to go work for HBO. And do you know a game of thrones spin off and have to be in the writers? Like that's, it's a very specific goal. And my experience I don't know about you is, whenever I've made goals like that, the universe laughs at me. Because it's just does it does it never falls into, if you would have told me 10 years ago, and I would have a podcast. And that podcast would give me access to some of the biggest minds and highest big powered people in Hollywood. From my little room in Burbank, at the time when I was starting this now I'm in Austin, I would have laughed at you. Of course, it sounds ridiculous. Oh, and because of that, you're gonna be able to do this and this and this. And this, none of which were in my none of which were my plan. But you have to be open to what the universe gives you. And that's the thing that I always find. I found in my in my elder years because I'm geriatric now because I just broke my foot. But But no, in my in my years come is being open to what comes. And as a young man, I was not I was closed off. It had to be I had to be tweeting Tarantino had to be Robert Rodriguez had to be Steven Spielberg, do you have any directors walked into this? Because like, I'm going to be the next Steven Spielberg like No, you're not. Not because you're not capable. But you're talking about I'm going to be the next Michelangelo, like, that's who you're talking about. Like, there's a hand there's a handful of masters, who we all look up to. And even Spielberg was looking up to Kurosawa and Kubrick and all these other, they all do it. But you have to be the best version of you. And whatever that takes you. It's okay, as long as you're happy, and you're helping people and you're expressing yourself as an artist, and you're making a living. That's the goal of life. And that was the other thing. I don't need millions of dollars. And that was another big thing. Because a lot of people think filmmaking is about millions of dollars and fame and fortune. And when you're young, that's what you think about. But as you get older, you're like, you know, what, can I pay my bills? Can I support my family? I think I'm good. Like, I don't need, you know, $10 million a year, it'd be nice to be able to do some fun stuff with it. But it's not gonna make me happy. What makes me happiest,

Kelly Edwards 17:33
Right! I do so and it may or may not come the millions of dollars may or may not come? Who knows? And that's fine. If, if you're enjoying it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I think you're, you're you're just as much of a fanatic about film as I am. And I listen to your podcast. And I love the fact that you do these deep dives that you have the screenplays that you can sort of dissect on line, that I never get enough of just having conversations about content. And I think that for me, if I if I had to go work at a desk job and push paper, I would just shoot myself in a little ball. Absolutely. So any chance that I get no matter where it is, being in touch with other people who love this is life giving for me.

Alex Ferrari 18:17
Absolutely, it is a it is it is a joy to be able to do what I do every day, and I have the privilege and I tried it. I try to take advantage of it as much as I can every day. But it's about giving back Honestly, I mean, so much of our conversation, I'm asking you questions that I want answered personally. And then everybody gets to kind of listen into our conversation. These are conversations that you would have at a bar at a festival, or at a commentary or on a set. And I was like, you know, I want to have those. I've had so many of those in my career like Man, I wish I would have recording that one. Or always, you know, like that little gem that would have been great. And that's what I do for a living and I'm able to jazz myself up, but also give the opportunity to millions of people around the world to listen to to our conversations and hopefully help them along their path. Because I would have killed for an opportunity to have a podcast like mine to listen to when I was coming up in my 20s exactly Oh my god. It would have saved me but we've gone off

Kelly Edwards 19:16
Dealing with JVC tapes and you know,

Alex Ferrari 19:19
God don't don't go How old are we? Oh god Stop it. Stop it. I was cutting out a three leg. I was cutting I was cutting on a three quarter inch. Sony raises them putting putting reels together for a commercial house back in the night. And I was there I was there sell old I am. I was I was there Apple tech. For all the whole production company. I was the tech for all the computers which were all the little Macs and a little boxes. Yeah, axes. And there wasn't a Wi Fi. So in order to network everything you had to use appletalk and that was cable that you would cook and it was just like a long daisy chained cable across the entire company. And if somebody had to have I swear to God, if someone kicked one open and knocked the entire network out, and I would literally have to go and hunt down, where did they get kicked out and then plug it back. It was seen, but we have

Kelly Edwards 20:17
Okay, all right. Well, I when I was first, so I used to work on a Selectric typewriter when I was doing my first thesis and my you know, working for my, my two writers. And then I was so excited when we when we converted to Wang computers. So that was the big thing. And I loved typing on it because it made a little clicking sound. And I thought, Oh, this is so cool. So yeah, I'm gonna go toe to toe with the only person on the planet.

Alex Ferrari 20:45
Hey, listen, the struggle was real. The struggle was real. I just want to put that out there for everybody. And everyone listening is like, okay, Alex, enough with the old telling the two old farts. At least one old fart. You look much younger than me. Yeah.

Kelly Edwards 21:02
Sorry. I'm just I'm saying we're right there. This is this is the good news though. I just made a transition in my life and my career. And I'm I 30 plus years into the business. So I just turned 58. And I've just gotten stabbed for the first time. So if anybody does out there listening, go, I don't know if I can make a change. Absolutely. When I'm, you know, an adult. I've got three kids. They're all adults. They're all legal, then, you know, you can't you absolutely can't you just have to put your mind to it. And you have to make a plan. But don't ever let anybody tell you you can't make a change, man.

Alex Ferrari 21:39
Amen. Amen. Now, the executive ranks which is is a mystery to me. Executives get a bad rap. As a general statement in the film side and the television side. It's the evil executives, this is this is a lot of writers think this way. It's your evil executives who come down with their notes, they have no idea what they're doing, they don't understand what's going on. What First of all, what are the executive ranks? Is there like a specific kind of pert? You know, like, I have no idea what the ranks are. I mean, obviously, I know the studio head and head of television and things like that, but the hierarchy. And then let's first go into the hierarchy, what is the hierarchy of a standard, you know, executive ranks at a studio?

Kelly Edwards 22:27
Well, I delineate this in the book pretty early on, in laying the groundwork, because it is important for you to know what the levels are when people come in. Usually in the executive ranks, you start out as an assistant, sometimes there's a level lower than that, like an associate some of the programs that they used to have it I don't think they have any more use to start with associate, then you go to assistant and then coordinator, which is interesting, because years ago, back in the 80s, coordinator and assistant were were reversed. But now it's assistant coordinator. And the coordinator is really the junior executive on that track. And they they go from, you know, just answering phones to and creating, you know, coffee meetings, and you know, lunches, and all of that and scheduling. Travel to, okay, now you're a junior executive, and you're probably getting writer's list together, you're doing a version of notes, you're sort of you're in the meetings with the executives, and then you've got a manager. And that's even more on that scale. So as a manager, you're really fully an executive, but but you're still a junior executive, you're not necessarily running the meetings, you're not necessarily the person who's giving the notes to the higher the higher ups. But you are absolutely a utility player, you're reading a lot of scripts, and you're in the game. And then there's director level, sometimes there's an executive director level, that's really just a half step. You know, somebody, somebody HR is trying to squeeze in another steps that you don't have to get to VP, you can't be top heavy in your department. But then after director, it's VP and then Senior Vice President, Executive Vice President, and then you're going to sort of get into the, you know, the president ranks of the of the company, and then you get up to CEO. So there are there are steps in there, and you learn different things at different places along the way. By the time you're a VP you are, you can be heading your own department. Usually a director is not heading their own department, but a VP would be SVP for sure. EDP is in charge of a division most likely. And then present year and taught in. And I think, also what's interesting is that the more the higher up you get, the less creative sometimes it gets. So if you're a president of the network, you're not necessarily in the creative meetings all the time. You're not necessarily hearing the pitch you you've sort of aged out of the fun stuff. And I know a number of people who, who can get to that level they go oh gosh, I really Love the process of being in the middle of it with the with the writers. And now I'm dealing with marketing and sales and

Alex Ferrari 25:07
Ratings.

Kelly Edwards 25:08
And ratings. Yeah, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 25:11
So how So how has the when I said the evil executives, because I mean, I mean there it's been infamous like that's in Hollywood for a long time. Can you just from the point of view of the executives now you've been on both sides of the of the table? Wow. I've heard from many writers, and, and filmmakers, there are some excellent executives out there that give great notes. And really, they have an outside perspective, and they really have an understanding of story The and to have that understanding of character, and they really do help. And then there's the the egocentric, you know, climbers who are just there to like, I can't, I gotta get I got to stick my nose into this. If not, why am I here? Kind of executive? How do you deal with that kind of an executive as a creative? And how would you, because they have the power, they have the keys to the car that you're driving. But yet, if you let them drive, they're going to run it off the road. So there's this balance of creativity versus politics, which is, there is no book that I know of, there is no course that I know of that talks about the true politics of this industry. And it is yeah, it is important to understand

Kelly Edwards 26:23
It is there are a lot of things. And I think a lot of little pieces to this, because you have to remember it's not just on the executive side that you're looking at, you're looking at the status of the writer. So if you come in and your baby writer and you're getting notes from somebody, you pretty much have to take them. If you're a baby writer who's paired up with someone who can help, then you have a different level of influence. If you are coming in and you're the you know, the top eat me Shonda Rhimes, you're not necessarily taking anybody's notes. So you're depending on what you're what you're, you know, you can listen to them or not. So I think it depends on where you are as a writer on the food chain as well. Here's the thing about executives, though, if every executive comes into the business, as someone who is a fan of entertainment, the way that we are, they hopefully they're doing the work that we are, they aren't always but they love content. So they love television shows, they love film, they love books, they love the creative side of the business, just like the writers do. They're just a different part of the process. And hopefully a good executive has taken the time to figure out you know how story what you know, they read all the good books they read, you know, the hero's journey, they read, they, they know what they're, they're talking about, some people don't do that work. And I think that's when you see a bad executive, when you see somebody who's come in who hasn't been on the production side, you can always tell I can always tell somebody has or has not been in production, because you see that they give notes that aren't doable, or workable or even make sense. But they don't know that because they're they're dealing with limited information. But the executive who is a really good executive, is trying to help you realize your dream, your goal, you have a story to tell. If you've gotten to the place where you're having a conversation with an executive, it's because they like your work. So already, that's a good thing. It's not like they're coming in and saying, Hey, I read your script, and I hate it. And let me you know, tear it apart for you. That's not the goal. Everyone's goal is always with good intention. So they're going to see your material and say, This is how I think you can make it better. Sometimes the way that they deliver those notes is not great, is it can be demoralizing. I think, again, that's part of the executives journey on trying to figure out how do they become the best executive they can be. And they may be. I was telling, I was talking to the director on our show this today, who happens to be Joe Morton, who's who's in our show. And I said, I just cringe at some of the notes that I must have given as a junior executive, back in the 80s. I want to apologize to every single person that I ever gave a note to back then because I am sure I came with so much arrogance, thinking Oh, I know better than you do. And I'm going to help you make this better. Not realizing that that's not the way to to anybody's heart. And I say now I actually don't give notes anymore. I I asked questions. Because I realized along the way that the writer had a goal in mind. If they didn't make that, that if they didn't hit the mark, then it's not because they didn't try is that there's probably some missing information you probably haven't earned those moments. You probably haven't given us enough information about The character you haven't done it done the hard work, but there's something missing. That's that's not connecting. So I ask questions because usually through a process of asking questions there's a revelation that happens for the writer it's not I'm dictating the note to you but it's I'm helping you discover what you want to say and how to say it better and that's how I put things down but people don't come into the business to be horrible to be to be to be negative and they're the goal is let me help fix it. And I think that's sometimes where the disconnect is between writers and and executives in a writer can can receive that information in a terrible way if it's not if it's not given with the spirit of collaboration

Alex Ferrari 30:49
Right and there's always that thing called ego as well that gets thrown into the mix on both sides of the table this is the deal and as we get older we you're right when oh god the arrogance when you um I couldn't even sit in a room My head was so big when I was younger oh my god and my 20s oh my god it was I will fix it you have obviously you people who've been in the business for 20 years you don't understand I'm here to exactly I'm here to fix this Just listen to me I know that we will guide you right to the promised land now how has how has streaming changed the game because you You came up in a time when there was no internet no streaming there was no Netflix there was none of that stuff both of us did. So in the 80s and 90s you know we were still you know, there was cable and then there was more shows but now there's literally how many how many scripted shows are there now the 1000 a year?

Kelly Edwards 31:44
Yeah probably a gajillion I'm sure

Alex Ferrari 31:45
It's insane how is the game changed and it's a lot of the stuff that we're talking about still apply in the streaming world as well as the network world or has streaming completely changed the paradigm

Kelly Edwards 31:58
It has changed it in very significant ways. And in some ways it hasn't changed at all. You still need a camera at a script and an actor so that doesn't change it's not like the it's revolutionized to the point where we don't recognize what we're doing. It's it's very similar in that way. You still call cut you still call to action and but it's changed it in obviously how the business works. monetarily change Did you ever zoom in on the executive residuals well yeah residual Exactly. But if you think about it even on the executive track you know if you go from working at a regular network to going to work for Netflix you all of a sudden become a millionaire in a couple of years so it's changed a bit a big way you know every no how's that work? No.

Alex Ferrari 32:47
So how is that work holiday let's back up for a second so if you're an executive working at CBS, then you jump over to Netflix why at Netflix is your what is the compensation difference? Why is it it's just because Netflix is just giving money away? Like it's water? Oh, yeah.

Kelly Edwards 33:01
Oh, yeah, it's it's many times just putting a time is next to that number. It's double, triple, quadruple what you can get paid at a regular network. But they also don't have contracts, they also don't have the same kind of titles. So things are different. You know, I don't think that they have pension plans in the way that you know, you have a 401k at an at another network. So I do think that there's given take a little bit but yeah, you are getting paid. Some nice, nice paychecks are coming into your direct deposit. But it's changing also in a lot of other ways in that if you think about the way people are developing content, obviously when when we went to from broadcast and a certain number of act breaks now let's go let's let's actually jump back in time, let's back in the time when I was coming up, and I was working for Don and Jerry, you know, we were working in for camera tape shows, you know, and we were looking at quad splits and we were and the directors were in the booth and they were you know, she kept the shots. It's very, very different that we went into more when I was working at UPN in particular we started to work in more of the single camera area and by that time you know Seinfeld was around and so shows became have our comedies were not just two acts with a you know, a teaser and a tag. All of a sudden it's three acts. It's you know, when Seinfeld came out the scenes were so much shorter. They were a lot of you know, comedy stings. And there's just a lot of things that change in terms of the, the way that we made shows if you watch the the pilot of Sex in the City, they have these little Chi rods in it, there's a lot of DIRECT address. There was a lot of gimmicks that were happening around that time. We don't see those necessarily as much as we do we did then. So things are always changing the evolution of television, always changing the boundaries in terms of what you can and cannot say, are always changing. When you get to streamers, we're now dealing with no act breaks. You know, we had that it. We had that at HBO, we had the HBO and Showtime and all that. But now we're dealing on a massive scale with no act breaks for your, for your, your shows. So you have to make sure that you are keeping a structure to it so that things are moving forward. Oh, there are you have to do, you have to find a way to get people to push next episode in a way that you didn't have to before. So in broadcast from before, you'd show up every Thursday night for mercy TV, or you show up every Monday night for whatever you're showing up for. And it was one episode at a time. And now we're in bingeing. But in order to get somebody to binge on the writer side, my goal is now to get someone to binge. Well, I then have to figure out what is going to get them to binge. That means a more serialized kind of storytelling. And that means I need to find a way at the end of episode one to get you to press episode, you know to get to next episode. So that changes storytelling quite a bit, you have to figure out a whole new paradigm for telling a story that might have been really successful as a one off. Let's just say you're doing lawn order SBU and everything is self contained. Well, the good news about lawn orders to you is that you might want to do next episode, just because you love Mariska Hargitay, but there's no reason that you need to do it next episode. Unlike watching queens Gambit, I have to get to the next one because the story's not finished. So we're dealing with very, very different ways of storytelling that we didn't have before.

Alex Ferrari 36:57
Yeah, like, you know, watched castle that was, you know, that was on forever on an ABC. And that was a procedural show. It had a small arc through the season, but it was a procedural show a fun, procedural SBU. So every week basically, it was a self contained episode, but there was a small like, will she ever find her mother who killed her father or something like that? There's always that one little arc that carries throughout the entire episode, or the entire series a season. But then something like Queen's gambit. Like that's just crack. It was absolutely it was absolute

Kelly Edwards 37:31
Or squid game. If you watch squid game

Alex Ferrari 37:32
I have not seen it yet. I my wife says no, because that means I have to do it on my own now and that's gonna take me more time to do because she saw she's like, that looks violent. I'm like

Kelly Edwards 37:43
It is so it's terrible.

Alex Ferrari 37:46
I've been hearing nothing about it. I have to but I have to watch it. I have to watch it right, or Narcos, when Narcos was the first three seasons of Narcos was just like Jesus every week he just wanted to keep every week every episode you want to keep going. And it just changes the whole way. You look at story structure. You were saying evolution? You know there was one. There was one show that really changed the game. I'd love to hear your point of view on it. You know when the sopranos showed up? And David chase created the sopranos. It really just changed everything. Like it changed. storytelling and television. And you know, you had you know, Breaking Bad Mad Men, Dexter, Game of Thrones, right? All of these the lineage goes right back to the sopranos, pre Sopranos. a show like Breaking Bad would have never even It was tough to even get breaking up the air.

Kelly Edwards 38:41
I really wanted a shield Come on, it was that just before it was around the same time it

Alex Ferrari 38:46
It was I think it was either around the same time or a little bit after this a little bit after I think the sopranos was the first time that was that anti hero. In a way. It was the episode The episode. It's fresh in my mind now because I just had the pleasure of talking to David chase on the show. And and that was a that was a trip. There was an episode five, I think it was episode four or five. It was happening. It was Episode Five was called college where Tony strangled a rat. On Air, like full blown. The rat didn't do anything to him. It wasn't like the guy what? And HBO had a major problem with it. They're like you're going to destroy this character before he even gets off the ground. Nobody's gonna want to follow this guy. He's your little and they murder him right on, like a glorious daylight like it's bright and everything. And that was the moment it shifted. Because prior to that, you just saw instances of that, but you never saw the brutality of Tony Soprano. And that moment, after that episode came on, everybody was even more jazzed about seeing the show. And the executives were like, oh, things are changing. We we don't need to have a hero anymore. We don't need To have a guy who has moral a moral compass, we can root for the pet guide. And that was right. It kind of just shifted everything. And movies have been doing that for a while. I mean, I mean, Goodfellas. You know, if you want to go into that genre, I mean, we were all sure we were all rooting for Scarface. I mean, you could I mean, we are all falling, but in television that would never done never ever prior to that. So what did you What's your opinion on the legacy of the sopranos and then also these other shows that kept pushing the envelope after the sopranos like a Breaking Bad like a madman, like, like, Dexter for serial killer. We're rooting for.

Kelly Edwards 40:42
Yeah, and I remember being out there, I think around the time that Dexter came out with something similar. We were pitching something with a with a couple writers under my deal at Paramount, and yeah, it was a it became a big thing. I think, I think a couple things happen at the same time, which is, when you think about the sopranos, it was remarkable. And I would love to I did not hear your David Chase.

Alex Ferrari 41:07
It just came out. It just came out, as of this week, as of this recording. Came out right there. So you can listen to that, like,

Kelly Edwards 41:13
Where is he? Like, what is he doing now? Because I, I mean, he dropped,

Alex Ferrari 41:19
He dropped the mic. That's basically I dropped the mic situation like he he's been in television for what 40 years braved the rock for files and all this stuff. But then he was given that opportunity to do the sopranos. And when he was doing the sopranos, he literally just like, I don't care. I'm gonna do it my way. And I'm gonna be bold, and I'm gonna fight for whatever I want to do. And that's and they just let HBO let them do it. It's an it's a weird. Just everything aligned. So perfect. Right at that. The timing for a show like that. And I think and I think HBO was really trying to get into television, and they're trying to make Yeah, big swings, right? And they took that. And I actually said that to David. I was like you I'm so glad you took the swing at the back because we need creators on the on Bay at home plate, taking those swings. And I go, what would what would have happened if you would have missed because it Sopranos could have absolutely missed, right? And he's like, Oh, no, I would have just gone back into something else.

Kelly Edwards 42:19
I don't care. Yeah, it was low stakes for him, I guess. Because Yeah, for I and correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is, I think the story was that he had it at Fox first. And they didn't want to do it. Well, it was

Alex Ferrari 42:31
It was a feature. It was a feature. And, and he he wrote a feature first and he still tried to go around town with it. Nobody wanted it that somebody at HBO pitched him an idea about it wasn't a feature about the mob. It was about. It was about a studio executive who had an issue with his mother, his psychotic mother, because it's based on his life. That's his mom. The Sopranos mother is his mother.

Kelly Edwards 42:58
So when they say right, which, you know, right, which you know, it's

Alex Ferrari 43:01
exactly that, but then someone's like, hey, do you want to do a mob, a mob show? And then he then he connected the two. And that's how, and that's how the sopranos game. And then he did pitch it. I think, I'm not sure who who paid. I got to HBO somehow. And then HBO said yes, to whatever I mean, I mean, the episodes the first season was, and they just kept going with it. But then it was just this, this magic that you can't, as a writer, as a writer, and a creator, you could do so much on the page, but then the actors show up, then the director show, then the location show up, and then you're rewriting there. And then on the edits, you're rewriting there, it's like it's, he said, it was like when you saw Tony talking to this other character, you're like, Oh, I didn't see that before. Why don't we try this? That's a magic that it's lightning in a bottle. You can't get the free, you know, this as well as anybody having the freedom that he had, at that budget range on a network like HBO is unheard of, especially at the time. Right? basically let the the lunatics run the asylum for a minute. And then by the time Yeah, and by the time the show was off, the lunatics completely, do whatever they wanted. Along the way

Kelly Edwards 44:17
Exactly. But that But see, here's the thing. Remember that? When I went to HBO, they make you read a book, at least they write made me read a book about the history of HBO, and they talk about the fact that it started off with, you know, sports and movies and Fraggle Rock, would you go that doesn't make any sense amazing Fraggle Rock, and then you've got Dream on and some of those shows that we're trying to burst out, then didn't make it really, you know, for the long haul. And by the way, where is Brian? Ben Ben, because I think three years Thank you. So I feel like then, and then they had to court. big name. They had a court people, they did court people because they didn't just like when I was at foxing UPN. We were the also RANS and Everybody wants to go to NBC and ABC and CBS because that's what everybody knew. And so when you're building a fledgling network, you need to, to entice people and so we we kept going out to people and saying, you can do whatever you want. Why do you want to do just push the envelope? We can't look like a ABC and CBS, we have to look different than they do. What? What would you like to do? We'll, we'll let you have creative freedom. I think that's probably what HBO was doing at the same time, which was like, let me bring the Michael Patrick kings over, let me bring the Darrin stars, we bring the David chases, let me bring the people who would like some creative freedom who have the ability to run a show, and who have something that has, that's a big swing, and let's just give them the keys to the kingdom. And then they had, you know, the David Simon's of the world and they they took off with that model of let's let the creator be the Creator. So I do think that there was probably an evolution to at HBO that was saying, how do we entice people over here because we need to be not the weird thing on the side of

Alex Ferrari 46:09
They were not able they weren't cable they're not even Fox or UPN whether they were networks. This is cable, it was like oh,

Kelly Edwards 46:18
How do you do that you make it really really enticing and you take a big swing on something that nobody else is going to do and what's that well nudity, it's going to be violence it's going to be pushed content and it's going to be freedom for your creatives to come in

Alex Ferrari 46:33
And as an oz came out before Sopranos which was also a very big show as well but it was different than the sopranos how they they worked it and it's it you know doing doing the research I did on on that episode just as you look at us it's just it's one of those moments that just changed television forever and and and we wouldn't have i mean i'm a big Breaking Bad fan like I love Vince Gilligan and I love everything he does and and you would have never had a show like that it barely got on yeah get right they got on to a network a network a cable network like AMC that like what do you don't you play like Citizen Kane and Gone with the Wind you want to make shows now. So that's the only reason again let the lunatic in. Let's but

Kelly Edwards 47:22
I think madman's the same thing. Yeah. Matt was like, you know, he was on the sopranos, he he was right. He had this thing that he loved and, and then somebody allowed him to do the thing that he loved. And he just went for it. 100%. And he asked, Where do you get those?

Alex Ferrari 47:38
Sorry? No, no, no, I'm sorry, Matt. They asked Matt, like, would you have been able to make madmen without Sopranos? And he's like, no, first, I wouldn't have been able to make it because it didn't exist. Secondly, I wouldn't have been able to make it because I didn't get to sit in that writers room for as many years as I did, and see how David broke it down and break down his stories and stuff. One other thing that was really interesting about and I'll get off the sopranos kick in a minute, but it's, it's just good. It's just a good educational television conversation. He now he loved doing singular stories episodes, that literally didn't really feed the plot of the series. Just like character development, just like right episodes of just like, Hey, we're just going to talk about these three characters that have nothing to do with the overarching arc of the scene. That was also new. That was something that was it's not a procedural it's it's it's the right so it was like a weird I

Kelly Edwards 48:30
Love that. Don't but don't you want more of that? Yes. I feel like I want more of that. And I don't feel like I get enough of that. I feel like sometimes we are. There's so much of a draw. And again, it gets back to executives who's got the courage to just let you have a two person conversation between you know what to do a play. Why don't we do more of that? Why don't we just sort of sit in the moment

Alex Ferrari 48:53
It takes it takes a it takes some courage. It takes some courage and he was able to do it early on like episode like Episode Five college is that is that that episodes his favorite. And that's the one that really changed. That's when the sopranos became the sopranos was Episode Five. And it was that whole episode had nothing to do with the story. It was about his relationship with his daughter, and this rat that just came out of nowhere. And the executive forced him to make an scene to make the rat look a little bit worse than he did originally, there wasn't even a scene. It was just like, Tony just killed a random guy that he says because they were scared that they were really scared. It was such edgy stuff at the time. And now you look at something like Dexter, which is like you're literally following a serial killer. And, and you're rude,

Kelly Edwards 49:42
But a serial killer with a moral code. That's the thing right? And you're invited into his thought process and you understand why he got the way he got. They were very, very smart about how they constructed Dexter I think, and how you really went along for that ride because you're just killing the bad guys. And who wouldn't want that.

Alex Ferrari 49:59
It's Yeah, it's when you're writing like that. And when you're creating a show like that, or a character like that, it is such a razor that you're dancing on. It's the bullet the blade of a razor, you're just like, at any moment, you can slip and get your head cut off. I mean, it's great, because if you're if you do one scene the wrong way, or you break that code that you've created, just just a smidge, you lose your audience. So you're on the creative, bloody edge of writing. And it's this is a terrible visual, but it's all visual. It's a horrible visual, but it's but it's you're really our omens dexterous, that's why I was bringing this horrible visual into mine. But your, as a writer, you you are dancing, a very, very thin line. If you if you just go a little bit off, you can lose an audience. And that's why I think in that episode of Sopranos, the executives were like, I think, I think you're going way off the reservation here. And nobody's like, well, no one's ever gone that far. Let's see what happens. And oh, right there with us. They're still with us. Oh, they want more. And, and you keep going. But again, Tony Soprano as a character, his, his, he had somewhat of a moral compass. And he wasn't just a horrible bad guy. He was a horrible human being. But yeah, you fell for him because of his mother issues.

Kelly Edwards 51:21
Right! Well, he was but again, you know, go back to the Godfather. Everybody has a code. And they he followed the code. And so what he was doing, he had completely understandable reasons for what he was doing, even though we wouldn't do that. It made sense in his world. And I think that that's when you when you do misstep is because you completely got out of the work. Here's a perfect example of that. I was just having this conversation yesterday was somebody about walking dead when they killed Glenn. Oh, and they said they crossed the line, because that's not the world they'd set up for us. That's they completely took our trust. And then they bashed it when they bashed his head in. And I stopped watching I was a rabid rabid fan, yes, loved every moment of it. But when neguin did that, I said well, that they have betrayed my trust, and I will no longer I will no longer give them my time. So I think you have to make sure that you're working within the rules of the world too.

Alex Ferrari 52:15
So can I also say I was a rabid Walking Dead fan, until Negan showed up. And it wasn't for me it wasn't the moment that he hit Glen that was pretty horrible and painful. But for me, it was a whole season because they made a cardinal mistake in that they created a villain that was too powerful. He they never gave him any wins. You didn't I don't know if you saw that scene or not, but they never gave any wins to our heroes that we loved. The problem with a villain is they have to be able to be balanced with the hero the hero has to have the ability to beat the villain. If not, it's a boring show, or a boring game story and that's the mistake they did because there was no the whole season it was just they were just getting beat up and be rocky was getting pummeled again and again by Apollo play and he never got a shot and and at the

Kelly Edwards 53:10
Lost battle every single episode exactly right. And then at

Alex Ferrari 53:13
The end of this at the end of that episode that season, they're like, Oh, look, you got to punch in FU. Screw you, man. I am angry. And we and we stopped watching. So even a show like that cuz and then you start and when neguin showed up, you saw that the ratings just go. They start dropping, because before walking dead was like the biggest show on television. Right. But neguin showed up and they handled it. That was that bloody edge I was talking about, right and mishandled it and the zombies had got cut off, I'm sorry.

Kelly Edwards 53:48
It was such a beautiful, beautiful show up into that point, it went really well.

Alex Ferrari 53:52
It was a wonderful show. Before that, I have to ask you, you've probably seen a bunch of pilots, you've written a few pilots in your life, I'm sure what makes a good pilot,

Kelly Edwards 54:01
That's like, wow, you just completely you want to be with that

Alex Ferrari 54:05
I just making you with that. I just love from cutting zombies head off to bam.

Kelly Edwards 54:12
Obviously, there are a number of things that make a good pilot, it's not just one thing, but it's a confluence of things you have to be you have to be timely. So even if that thing does not take place in this time, it needs to be relevant to that to today. So I think you have to be seeing something that makes a really great pilot, you need a great character with a new very unique point of view. And you need a construct or a world that they are in that is antithetical to who they are. So that makes the world hard for them to navigate. And I think if you have those things, you have the makings of a great pilot. So if you think about any of your, your favorite pilots, let's get back to Breaking Bad. He is a very nice chemistry teacher and he gets into the most violent world possible. So he is a very, he's got a very specific set of skills, just like Liam Neeson does. And taken, he has very specific set of skills, he is ill equipped to handle them against a very formidable world that he is entering into. So it's completely antithetical to who he is. And I think at the time, it was very, it was a, you know, we're dealing with, you know, epidemics constantly in terms of the drug world. So, I think it's incredibly prescient kind of television making. Think about any of your favorite pilots think about if you think about scandal, I talked about scandal in my in the book, and you've got a, a woman who is a hard charger, she's a badass from the very moment that she shows up on screen. And even before that, because there's a scene before she shows up on screen. And you have a character telling another character, don't you want to be a gladiator and a hat? Gladiator for this for, for Olivia? And the woman goes, yes, of course, I want to be Gladiator. And then you cut to Olivia Pope. At the time, I think it was a different name, but cut to her coming in. And she's she the way they described her in the in the, in the script. And on screen. She's just a badass. And then she comes into a scene where she's negotiating basically a kidnapping, and then you realize the kidnapping, they've kidnapped a baby. And you just go, I'm so sucked in. And I cannot wait to see what happens next, because I've never seen this character before. So she's a very, very great, amazing character. And what what world is she in she's she's a rebel, a rebel, she's a cowboy. She's in one of the most highly regulated rule. I don't know. regimented kind of businesses in the world. She's in politics, and only that but she's in love with the president united states. So we've set everything up against her she's gonna have to come up against the most formidable foes we tweet. And it's exciting and we're, we're leaning forward. And we're all into politics. We've all been in politics and you know, Brock, Obama's president, maybe it was, even Bill Clinton, where there were really charged, you know, sexy men. And then in the, in the White House, like, there's a lot of stuff that that you can sort of glean from probably the time that it was it came out along with his character and this particular place, but you want to then lean forward into character and into the world. So if you have those things, you're going to have a really great shot at pulling a pilot together.

Alex Ferrari 57:50
But so from what you've just said, the one thing I grabbed on to was that unlike movie, because you only have 90 minutes to two hours in a movie, you generally have a villain, you have one villain, maybe two or three or group of villains. But there's, there's a very specific, you know who the bad guy is. Whereas in those both those shows, yes, there are some adversaries, but there are brand new adversaries that can come in on a weekly basis, season wide basis, that will constantly give the character the leader that lead character issues. So I'm breaking bad. He's basically you're you're entering a new world. And in that world, there is 1000 things that can kill you. And that's what's exciting, as opposed to on Batman, you're the Joker. And that's the series that doesn't work that and I think that's where a lot of pilots make mistakes, if they lean you up against a villain and that could be one villain across a season, maybe even two or three seasons. But there are also others come you really should be. And correct me if I'm wrong, in Intellivision that we're talking about and we could talk about the sopranos, Mad Men, Dexter, all of them. They're not against one person or even a small group. It's generally an environment a world that they're entering, that there's 1000 places where they can get they can get their heads cut off. And absolutely, that's what makes really interesting television. Is that the fair statement?

Kelly Edwards 59:20
Yeah, they have to have many photos. Because it's if you whether you do it it's one it's like an SBU we go back to SBU or you go back to you know, whatever those procedurals are they're going to be it's going to be the bad guy of a week. Sure. But then there's got to be Yeah, a system in place it's the world is a is a dangerous place. So I have to fix the world. So yes, it's you're absolutely right.

Alex Ferrari 59:44
And it just keeps in that and that opens you up for many seasons. You can keep going. Exactly. Like with with Heisenberg, he, there was a point there was an end point there was a certain point where like You there was even even my wife when she was watching it with me. She was like, he's he's starting to cross the line a bit. He's not the guy I started liking. I'm not rooting for him anymore. He's turning into why am I Why do I like why am I following that guy? And that that it took us off the show still was a genius, so, but there were moments that you're just like, he's not a good guy anymore. He's not doing what he's doing. And he even said, He's like, I don't I'm not doing it before I first it was for my family. Now is because I like it. And you're just like, Oh, this is awesome. He's so is. It was like what it said, is turning Mr. Chips into Scarface.

Kelly Edwards 1:00:38
And Right, right. And it's and I think that that's also the beauty of Now, again, when you talk about dreamers, and how are things how have they changed, we're no longer necessarily going to 100 episodes. So we don't have to keep it open for forever, you can have a story that does arc like a movie over, you know, five season eight episodes, or whatever it is that you can tell the story that that needs to be told in that amount of time. And you don't have to belabor it, and you can see an end game, which I think is it actually makes our content better. You know, when you think about something like lost and you go Oh, lost was probably trying to figure out Hey, let's throw another monster.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:20
They were lost. They were lost. Yeah, they were definitely go.

Kelly Edwards 1:01:23
Well, it was probably a factor of Well, we've got a we've got another 22 episodes. What do we do now? We have to figure it out. Let's bring in what were those characters the three characters that nobody liked, and everybody wanted to kill off a monster. It's like the same

Alex Ferrari 1:01:39
Monster. It was I stopped I couldn't. The pilot was fantastic. It was wonderful. But at a certain point, you just like what's going on? And you're absolutely right. They needed to fill air. As opposed to the streamers you don't like I know Stranger Things has, I think they're going to do five seasons. And that's it. And I think Cobra Kai, another big show on Netflix. They're only going to do five seasons. And that's it. Like there's an out like there's only so many more seasons, we can see how many more characters you can bring back from The Karate Kid universe. Like at a certain point you're like, Ah, okay, so now Daniel and and Johnny are okay, they're fighting together against the ultimate bad guys. Okay, they're bringing back the guy from Karate Kid three. Okay, we ran out after Karate Kid three. So how many more seasons do we got here, guys? And they know in the Creator, Mr. Miyagi is not coming back. It would have been Mr. Miyagi would have been amazing magic Pat, was still alive. Oh, my God, I know, I would have made that show even better than it is. But anyway. Let me ask you, what are you up to now? What do you What's the what are the new shows you're working on now.

Kelly Edwards 1:02:44
I am a staff writer on a new show that just premiered on Fox, Tuesday nights at nine called our kind of people it is amazing. I have had the best time of my life working in this writers room. And it was again, it was a goal from when I was first in the you know, coming out of the gate, and never got a chance to get in the writers room. And this has been an amazing, an incredibly fulfilling ride for me. So we started in May, at the end of May. In the writers room, we are now shooting Episode 107, we have an order for 12. So we're writing episodes 910 1112. And it's I learned a lot I've learned a tremendous amount. I thought I knew a lot about the business and about development before I got in here, which has helped me quite a bit. But also just being in the writers room and seeing how stories are broken, and how things change and the reasoning for certain things and how to protect characters in the show. And it's been just phenomenal. And every single day is like Christmas. I cannot wait to get to work every day.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:57
Isn't that a great feeling? It's like we skip to work. Yeah. It's like you. Yes. It's like you skip to work and a smile on my face every day. And it's it's hard for people to understand, and I'm not doing it to rub into anybody's noses here that listening like Hahaha, no, it took us a long time to get here. And now we're like, oh, I'm happy. And you know, I'm like, it's just such a fulfilling feeling. As opposed to like, Okay, I got some money, but I'm miserable. I got that big paycheck. But I'm miserable. I'm like, Oh, the paycheck might be smaller, but I'm happy. And as you get older you realize happiness is a really big thing. Much more than money. Well, it's much I mean, you need money to live but at a certain point like okay, what's, where do I have enough? And I don't have to great doing something I don't like just to get more money to do what it's like happiness means so much more. And being creative is even. And being creative is even more than that. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions asking my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life

Kelly Edwards 1:05:00
I will say this, this sort of ties into what what you were saying and what we're talking about. I got. I was married for 23 years, the last five, we were separated. So my big lesson was that I deserve joy. And I wasn't living in joy. And didn't I deserve to live in joy. And so I had white knuckled it for quite a while. Now this is granted, I'm best friends. I love him so much. My ex husband is an amazing person. We are besties, we talk multiple times, we're always on. We're always texting. So I don't this is not about him. This was about I think this was really about being in the right place. And being the right being the right me being 100% mean. And when I found the right combination of what I needed in my life, my joy level just shut up. Incredibly. And I think it was all precipitated by the divorce because the divorce in 2015, when we started divorce proceedings, the year of 20 2016 was I did a year Yes. And I just say yes to every single thing. And I ended up on six different continents got a tattoo met, the Dalai Lama was at the White House twice. I was I just had a complete I did, I asked twice, I just had this complete, let's just busted open and do all the things that I felt like I had missed along the way. I had kept living in this very, very tiny little box and thinking that I was like, Oh, I'm an executive, I've got it all, whatever it is. And I thought to myself, what have I not tried? And why have I said to myself, that I needed to do certain things in a certain way. So I just started living a bigger life. And part of that was I needed to not be attached to my ex husband. Because I felt like he was part of that rigidity of you have the kids, you have the house, you have the dogs, and you don't do certain things. So I kind of went off the rails a little bit in 2016, which then snowballed into, let's go back to two to get my education. my MFA, I was almost gonna say High School. Let's get out of high school, it kind of felt like it. But I went back to school, I applied to Sundance and again, it was I was thinking, Well, what why? Why would I ever move out of this executive box? Because I'm, everyone's gonna know me in a certain way, you can't switch? I always have that mindset. You know, I was I was drinking that Kool Aid. And then I went, well, why? Why was I thinking that? So why not change that thinking, just start to challenge, everything, every assumption that I had made about my life, and get back to what I wanted to be and who I wanted to be when I was 15 and 1413 years old, loving content and movies and wanting to be a writer. So it really did take 35 years for me to get there longer. But it was so worth it. Because again, it's about living enjoy. And why was I why was I okay, not living in joy every day.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:22
Oh, because we could talk ourselves into a lot of stuff gateway. Oh, God, can we? Yeah, yes. But actually, when that check shows up?

Kelly Edwards 1:08:29
That's right. But if there's one, let me be honest, you know, I, my transformation, let's just say my becoming the butterfly out of the cocoon. I don't know, for everybody, I'd like to think it is. But I have friends who complain about being where they are, and just and never make the move and don't change. And I then have to say, look, I I appreciate that you are feeling this way. But I can't listen to this anymore. Because either you do something or you don't. But not everybody is equipped to make that move. And I completely understand that. And that can be their journey in their life. And that's okay. So what I say I went out and I made a big change it just not to mean that everybody needs to go out and quit their job and completely go off the rails and do something different. It worked for me because I think I had I had set myself up for it. There was a chain of events that made sense for it. I did go back to school and might get my degree. You don't have to do that. But I was working and I was writing and then I was starting to show my stuff on social media. And I was getting positive feedback that they gave me courage to go back to school that gave me courage to go to Sundance that they gave me courage to be to say no to a big opportunity at HBO. So there was a very specific chain of events. I didn't just walk in and quit and say I'm just doing this I was financially ready to do it. I had saved some money. I was rolling into a first look deal at HBO. So I Have a support system. So there were things that happened that made it possible. But as you started off talking about the universe, the universe making plans, you make plans, and then the universe blows them apart. The universe also will catch you if you're living in that truth. And I had a perfect example of that, which is not only was when I said, I'm going to leave HBO, and when they when Christina Becker had kept coming to me, and she said, Do you want to have this big motion? I said, I really don't I'm, I'm content to sit here for another 18 months off my contract. And I'll just write and I'll just enjoy it. And I know the job, I'll just write it out. And she said, Send me your script. She read the script within 48 hours, and she called me back and she said, No, you have to do this. Well, that's part of the universe say, there's support there in a big way. And by July, I had my deal in place, I was rolling out. And I was rolling into a deal. So the universe was then providing funding finances for me. Now, did I take a big hit? financially, yes, it's half of what I made at HBO. But it was still it was enough. And that's all I needed was enough. So I got this deal. And a week after I left HBO, so it was a Thursday. That was my, my last night was a Thursday, July 17, something like that was my last day at HBO. The last day I was gonna get a paycheck from, from my regular job, and I was rolling into this deal is gonna pay me half. And a week later, I had the book deal. A week later, I got the call that I had the book deal. So again, it's the universe saying, You think you're going to fall off the face of the earth, you think you're probably going to drown, you don't know what's going to happen, you may or may not sell anything, you may or may not get on staff. Guess what I'm going to give you I'm going to show you this book, this book is going to come and be part of the next part of your life. And I had that book to deal with, deal with to write over the next four or five, six months or whatever. And it was, again another another piece of the puzzle. So I do feel as though even though we sometimes feel as though the universe's is kicking us in the teeth constantly, the universe can also bring us some of these blessings and joy that we are expecting that can help nurture and satisfy us in a different way.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
And where can people find your new book executive, the executive chair

Kelly Edwards 1:12:24
It's going to be released on Amazon next week, on Tuesday, the 12th so that's, so by the time this comes out, it might already have been but it's gonna be on Amazon, it will be on mwp.com. The Michael weezy Productions website, it will eventually be at Barnes and Noble. I think you can probably search for it online and probably find other booksellers that that will have it but but if you like it, please leave it. Leave it out. Yeah, a nice review on Amazon. I hope people get something out of it. My goal with the book is really to give people the tools that they might not have otherwise had about how to navigate some of the ins and outs of the industry and to know what's an executive head so that you can navigate that more effectively than you might have not otherwise had the had that advantage. So it's with good intentions but I put that out there in the world.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:23
Kelly It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you on the show today. I know we can keep going for a little while longer for sure. We could geek out about television for a while but I appreciate you coming on the show and thank you for putting the book together. And I wish you nothing but the best in your new endeavors and I'm not to sound condescending, but I'm proud of you. I'm proud that you that you took the you jumped it's the it takes bravery to leave a cushy job and to leave a good paycheck and and and as you get older it gets even more risky so that you did it and you've landed on your feet and you're happy is a hopefully an example that everybody listening can can take to heart so thank you so much Kelly.

Kelly Edwards 1:14:04
Thank you for having me. This has been amazing. And I appreciate what you do. This is what you do is is is just gives me like it really does I love with your podcast. So thank you for having me.

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BPS 143: How To Become A Professional Screenwriter w/ Brooks Elms

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Brooks Elms has written more than 25 scripts over the term of his career for companies like Gold Circle Films, Base FX, and Broken Road. 

We connected through a mutual friend and I couldn’t wait to have him on the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast. 
Elms is a member of the Writers Guild Of America and a part-time screenwriting instructor at UCLA Extension where he’s shared his filmmaking and plot structuring skills with his students since 2016 through two classes he currently teaches; Story Analysis for Film & TV, and Story Development.

You may have seen films and television series he’s directed such as The Ultimate Fighter, Snapshots from a .500 Season, Montauk Highway, Drew, Trip and Zoey and So Happy Together.

Elms have consulted with all levels of creatives across Hollywood, including studio directors, rewrites for the oscar-winning writer while also writing and directing his own indie feature films. 

In his free time, Elms loves to coach other writers who have a burning ambition to deeply serve their audiences. We both should be working on a project of mine in the near future, so stay tuned.

I’m always down for a good screenwriting 101 conversation and my interview with Brooks will not disappoint

Enjoy my conversation on how to become a professional screenwriter with Brooke Elms.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:11
I like to welcome the show Brooks alums How you doin Brooks?

Brooks Elms 0:14
I'm great. I'm excited to be here.

Alex Ferrari 0:16
Thank you so much for being on the show, man. I truly appreciate it. You reached out to me a little while ago. I think you heard me that I was gonna write a screenplay. And you're like hey if you need any help man, I'll coach you through it I'll do that honestly and I appreciate that by the way thank you so much. I don't even know when I'm going to start writing this thing but but I'll I'll let you know

Brooks Elms 0:39
One of the many things that interests me about you because I you got on my radar like like maybe 10 years ago through a mutual friend Scott who did this podcast film trooper

Alex Ferrari 0:51
Of course and Scott yeah a friend of the show yeah

Brooks Elms 0:55
yeah he's awesome and it was funny because he kept going oh yeah there's this guy Alex Ferrari like who is this guy was like all jealous like who is this guy? Who is this man this guy's bringing it you know and so I I've watched how like you always help an indie filmmakers and then it's just kind of snowballs on now you're like the Amazon of helping indie filmmakers. It's amazing. That's

Alex Ferrari 1:16
awesome. I might steal that the Amazon of helping filmmakers.

Brooks Elms 1:21
You're welcome you're welcome to it I actually you can you can use that when I came up with the the tagline for the blacklist calm. Where Where? screenwriters meet filmmakers. There's something like that. They sent out their beta. And it had some terrible you know, line. I was like, This is awful here. You should do something like this. Blah, blah, blah. And they go Oh, that's great. We're awesome. I do marketing stuff too. So it comes comes naturally.

Alex Ferrari 1:47
So how did you start in the businessman?

Brooks Elms 1:50
Oh, man, I started making movies my friends back in high school. And it was just so much fun. I I got started. I was 15 years old. And my friends came up and said, Hey, we're making a kung fu movie you want it you want to do and I was like, Oh, hell yeah, that sounds great. So we made that movie and and then we have another one another we showed our friends. They were laughing their asses off. And I was like, Oh, my guy was so completely and utterly hooked and bite. And that was in high school. And I probably made 50 short film experiments before I even got to NYU film school. Because it was just it was intoxicating. And I loved it. You know, you know how that is? So

Alex Ferrari 2:27
the disease the diseases, I call it the disease? Yes. You get bitten by the bug and you can't get rid of it. It's it's with you for life. It

Brooks Elms 2:35
is it is yeah, consumers are recovering independent filmmaker.

Alex Ferrari 2:40
I'm a recovering independent filmmaker. is always Yeah, we're always constantly recovering. And then and then we and then of course, of course we fall off the wagon. Because we because we go and see you know we watch a Kubrick film or we watch a Nolan film you're like oh my god I gotta go back into God I got it I gotta make another movie. It's it's the we're we're very weird creatures. filmmakers and screenwriters. There's very strange in the world of all creatives, because it's just such a I don't think there's many other forms screenwriters are different but filmmakers need a team need to gather the troops need to get the parties together to put the tent up the pit put on the show. It is unlike any other art form not a writer not a painter even a musician could do something alone if they want to they could be a singer songwriter and do their own thing for us it's it's just weird we got to convince other people to jump on Crazy Train with us as an independent

Brooks Elms 3:42
there there was a moment So after I graduated NYU film school that summer I made my first feature and I was it was was about this based loosely on on the I play them mlu soccer team and the movie was about how our team was like perfectly average they were a great team there were a terrible team we were really good at drinking after games right? So I made this movie that was okay about about the soccer team and I was a four or five days into the shoot and we were doing the soccer sequences so there was like 3040 people on set. I'm 22 years old don't really know what the hell I'm doing but it went around I looked around I was like, oh my god this is the best thing ever. But it was it just and that's that it's just I guess it's like you know that love for movies. And then the love for creation kind of come together when you're directing.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
Yeah, when you're on set I love being on set set is one of the favorite places to be and we get to do it so rarely. You know unless you're Ridley Scott who's working 24 seven every day and he's on set every week. It's it's a tough it's it's tough because as an artist, you only get to actually do your art handful of times really unless you're doing commercials or, or doing something else but like as a feature director. If you're lucky once a year, and In a retina insanity if not you're working every couple years if you're lucky as getting a project off the ground getting the financing it's a weird art form and then you're depressed every the rest of the time. And is it like you when when we when you go off set, and it's the last day of shoot, I'm like depressed? Like I go into the post so it gives me something to look forward to. But when on on the day of like this family, these carnies are my family I've been with for a few weeks now. And it's like this whole, it's just, it's such weird creatures.

Brooks Elms 5:34
It's intense. It's absolutely intense, because it's just it's such a hurricane of intention, and hope and dedication and awesomeness. And then it just goes, Oh, there's a void when it's done.

Alex Ferrari 5:46
Oh, and it's and then and then after post, it's worse. Yeah, now you're just like, Oh, I got I got nothing to do now except, like hope the distributor is gonna send me a check.

Brooks Elms 5:59
I actually love the marketing. So I even saw that film that I made when I was 22. When we finally finished it, I took it on like a college tour on the east coast. So much fun. I did that I like we showed it cuz it was a college movie. But we showed it. I showed a bunch of different colleges on the east coast. And we did like a month long screening event in in an off off Broadway space in New York that I called the New York City gorilla cinema. So I'm from the jump I've always loved the marketing promotion side as much as I love the the creation side

Alex Ferrari 6:29
as I do, as you know, as I love, I love the marketing promotion side it gets me jazzed up big time. Now you work with a lot of screenwriters. And you know you consult and you coach and you help screenwriters break through their own crap. As we all have our own walls we have to grow through Why do you think screen Why do most screenplays fail? In your opinion?

Brooks Elms 6:53
Because they Well, a we have to define how they fail right there's there's failing for story my own Yeah, story well, ultimately like if I mean it, because it's part let's take off the subjectivity right? Because what might be a failure for me might be my favorite or vice versa right so let's take that apart so let's say it's not even by the by the writers own standards it actually didn't hit the mark generally you're talking about its hero goal conflict the the hero probably wasn't as defined as it could be the goal probably wasn't as compelling as it could be. In the stakes, the conflict was it wasn't quite right.

Alex Ferrari 7:31
Now do you when you start writing do you write with starting with character with plot?

Brooks Elms 7:39
Neither I start with concept basically,

Alex Ferrari 7:43
concept. So concept would be more plot esque, I guess, kind of,

Brooks Elms 7:48
if I had a theme. If I had to squeeze one, I don't know I think concept kind of bridges them both right as a great concept, we'll have people kind of you can say in a sentence, and it'll sort of crack open people's mind, they'll go Oh, hey, that sounds like I get I get a lot of the stuff that's happening there. And it's really compelling. Oftentimes, there's a bit of an irony in there that helps you sort of unlock that sort of magic and you can do great work especially if you're a good director or you have a good director do your stuff with a sort of not a great concept right? But like when you start with a great concept everything else gets easier because of that quality of the foundation

Alex Ferrari 8:28
So talk to me about theme because I think that's also another where another place where a lot of screenplays and stories fail if they have no no no compass and the theme is that compass and they just they you see it all the time you watch some of these movies and you're just like there's no theme here there's there's just like Oh look there's a bunch of people fighting or there's a bunch of action or scares but like when you look when you study like a horror movie specifically, you study a Halloween you study you know Exorcist the storytelling is so solid that the scares are just bonus as opposed to films that just focus on the scares and not the thing and there's that theme underneath it that really is the backbone What can you tell me about that?

Brooks Elms 9:14
Yeah, that's it's interesting question so theme is tricky because it's it's a gravitational center point. And yet it's kind of ephemeral. If we kind of hold it too hard it kind of slips through our fingers and it's fine it gets more confusing right? One helpful way that feels kind of concrete with you because you can be theme is like, you know, crime pays or crime doesn't pay or or love conquers all, or we will talk about Shawshank at some sometime we hope versus despair, right? So, but like, a very sort of grounded concrete way of thinking about it is really sort of your character's misbehavior. And then their behavior. So they start out here with some sort of obstacle and problem and they're doing it the wrong way, right. And this is an expression have our own life like we've had, we all have life challenges. And when we're in no more human side of ourselves, we're not meeting our challenge and well, we're running away from something we're cowardly. We're, we're gluttonous, or we're doing something some sort of misbehavior. And, and our screenplays are a metaphor for this real thing going on in us if they're really great. It's some sort of metaphor for something we did. And we did it kind of the wrong way. And the script is about how we learn to do it the right way through painful trial and error. Your theme is a is a word that kind of speaks to that transformation. So in particular, with your idea of shooting for the mob, right? We were talking, I was watching your awesome Episode 501. RV, and I was, and I was listening to it, it was like I was interesting. So if, cuz my understanding of where you're at is, it's like you've written the book, and you know, and at some point, you want to do it, and maybe you have some great tours and might be helpful, but you're kind of like, I'm not sure kind of where to start my, to my mind, cuz that's sort of like my specialties I help I take, I take a writer, and I clarify their superpower. And I walk with them step by step on how to completely powerfully realize it. And what's exciting to me about, at least where you are with your stories, your theme is always is already so light and clear. It's like it's about uh, you know, and I haven't read the book, I'm just basically on the concept. It's about an independent filmmaker that that is so you know, urgent to make his movie that he ends up doing it the wrong way getting that with the wrong people and then realizing he can't do that, right. So that it to me thematically, you're in a really good place. And a lot of times, especially independent filmmakers, they don't have a theme that's so clean and simple. So to my mind, structuring your story, even again, having read the book, I'm sure it's probably pretty good cuz I know you and I, you know, I know what you're doing. But like, just based on a conceptual thing, what's going to make a good film, I can already see potential for how you could structure that thematically and really powerfully, just because your theme is so good.

Alex Ferrari 12:01
Well, I appreciate that. That for me is a tough conversation, just because it's, it's such a, it took me so long to get the courage to just even write the book, and the emotions that were attached to that story. And you know, it was real life. And I literally, you know, was crying through some chapters as I wrote it, because I was like, going back to the darkest times of my life. But I felt that I needed to get out there to help other filmmakers and other not only filmmakers, anybody in a tough situation that they can't they think they can't get out of, but they can. But for me, it's just tough to even think about starting to write it again, going back to that place mentally. Going back to that, that world, I don't mind directing it. And that's actually what I had to prove. It's a precondition of anybody who wants to make the movie with me, is that I have to have, I have to direct and my dp has to be the DP because he was Boris in the movie. And that was in the book. And that's it. Those are the only two. That's it, that's all I need. But I don't know, I think I might be too close to it. But I will I have to, I'll figure that out. Next year, when I begin that process,

Brooks Elms 13:05
I can help you out offline this really quickly in terms of how to, because this is the stuff I started doing. First I like I want a screenplay award at NYU doing this very personal senior thesis film, right. And it was about how I, the previous summer, I brought my girlfriend home to my hometown, and like she and my best friend didn't get along. So it was a very personal film about my best friend, I had to choose between my best friend or my girlfriend, right. And it was very wrong, because it just happened. And then and then the first feature I made was about my friends on the soccer team and how I was frustrated with the coach and blah, blah, blah, so and then when I broke through to the next level and started really selling scripts, I was able to take my superpower as a guy that could write grounded characters and tension, and then put it into a genre that was just more accessible. Because again, I wrote this alien invasion movie that was very gritty and grounded, and it felt like felt like a shooter event or a terrorist attack. But it just kept unfolding from there into being this alien invasion. And it did it did really well. So anyway, so and I work with writers who are working with all sorts of deep personal issues. So one of my specialties is figuring out how to because we have to come in from the personal places exactly what's going to make that movie really great, Alex, and yet you're right, if you're too close to it, it just triggers too much stuff because you lived it. And you wrote about it already. And it's

Alex Ferrari 14:23
and it's tough to make a move because a book is one thing but to make a movie, it has to change, his characters are going to be added storylines, and plots are going to be added that that have to be there to make it into a movie or else and that's the thing that it's hard for me to even comprehend. I'm like, well, that's not the way it happened. And even even if I even if I don't, even if on a conscious level, I say no, no, I'm gonna let that go. On a subconscious level. It's going to it's going to read or it's going to rear its ugly head. So it's your stuff,

Brooks Elms 14:53
and he will hear it and here's how I would advise you or somebody in that situation, right? Because it happens a lot. The key is that unlocking is thinking of it as the same but different of something else. So for example, the last script that I sold, it's a father and son story and I basically ripped off the the form of Kramer versus Kramer right. So Kramer vs. Kramer Dustin Hoffman in 1980 is a workaholic, add man, last guy that is actually a good father, Meryl Streep, having a nervous breakdown takes off and goes, you gotta you got to watch our kid. He's like, what? He has to learn painfully how to be a dad. And then at midpoint, she's like, okay, I've had my breakdown, I want to come back and take custody goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I like being a dad. So then it's them fighting, right? So I took that basic pattern, right? And I swapped out everything, all the characters all the same. And I wrote this script, called the art of the knockout that's going into production next year. And it's about this Bare Knuckle brawler that travels around the circus in the 1920s. he fathered this kid eight years ago that didn't even know about that kid's mom dies, and they stick him into the last guy that should be a dad, his bare knuckle brawler is stuck watching this kid, he hates it and tries to get rid of the kid is awful. And then slowly learns to actually really love being a father. And that has to fight to keep them at the end, right? So it's the same but different. And when that got set up, and I was getting notes, nother notes on the structure, structured, perfect, the only notes were they had a couple ideas on how to raise the stakes and this and that. So my invitation to you, or anybody like you that has something based on personal experience, see if it helps, it'll help you to vote and to sort of differentiate it from what actually happened and thinking that as a movie. And if once you think of it as a movie, oh, it doesn't have to be the same genre, oh, it's kind of like such and such, or this or that. And then what you think of as that, and then you use what actually happened in the book about as a buffet of elements to serve the vehicle of the story. Now you're just making it more accessible, that you might not want to do all that stuff, is independent filmmaking, we can do whatever the hell we want, right? So. So you got to do it the way you want. Most importantly, and if you want to lean into what Hollywood does best in terms of concept and structure, that would be my invitation, find a form of a story that you can kind of use you because you don't, because here's the other thing that happens, Alex, I kind of I liken it to people that put like a triangle wheel on a car, right? really creative, but that car's not going to go anywhere, because it's not gonna run. So what I say is, don't be creative, round wheels, big wheels, small wheels, fine, but round wheels. And then once we know it goes, then get creative. And so for me, for you, I think the most accessible and powerful version of what actually happened and sort of vision would probably be something like that, pick up a movie that you love, and then has an it around wheels from that, and then swap it out and make it completely personal to you. And to me, that's a way of being completely 100% authentic to the to that theme and the feelings because that's what we really care about. But the actual move that story that comes out, you know, is some things exactly what happened and some things that are just there to serve the new truth of your metaphor. That makes sense.

Alex Ferrari 18:15
Yeah, it makes it it makes all the sense in the world. I just had something that was really interesting. And I think it's a lesson that we can can we pass on to the listeners is the Utah Kramer vs. Kramer structure and swapped it out. There's so many screenwriters, working screenwriters, who do that all the time, that they'll take a movie their favorite movie, and they'll swap out the theme, they'll struggle, they'll swap out the conference, they swap out everything characters, it's not like they're stealing anything. Sometimes, sometimes it isn't, I'm going to give you an example of what it was. But, but but, but you can use that structure because the hard work has been laid out. It's kind of like already having a blueprint, and you're putting up new walls, you're dressing it differently, you putting new finishes on, but it's the structure that's been sound and it works already. And it's been proven to work. And that's something that a lot of lot of stress if you especially and again, it's also a good starting point to if you start looking at a movie and you break down there scenes, and you're like okay, I'm gonna replace this scene with this scene and this scene with this scene and I'm just gonna literally copy the the blueprint of that, that's a good starting point to get the juices flowing. And it could shift a bit as you go, it's not going to be exact, but the basic foundation is is is the is the same. And I found that to be really, really valuable. I always look at movies like What movie do I want this to be like it doesn't have to be same genre could be completely different. Perfect example of a movie that we all know that started one of the biggest franchises in the world. Point Break, Point Break. Wonderful film. Love it. One of the best action movies of the 90s Keanu Reeves and all of his glory pastor Patrick Swayze and all of his glory. It is Basically it was stolen. 100% is fast and furious. The first Fast and Furious is Point Break. Look at nice if you look at it and analyze it. Fast and Furious one is the it's actually the they just switched out surfers for cars. That was the only difference.

Brooks Elms 20:16
That's the only difference in the movies same but different.

Alex Ferrari 20:20
It's the exact same movie. It's like it's not surfers. And it's the same thing. And

Brooks Elms 20:27
another interesting example of that I in the script that I just finished now I was using the model of Dead Poets Society, a mentor comes in, gets really overly influenced that goes to a tragic place, but then they still celebrate the mentor at the end, right? And I was telling people when I was getting notes, I go Yeah, this is kind of like Dead Poets as it were, and people would read it and go, there's nothing like that posts it without you talking. So I had been so creative with around and I knew the screamer No, it was exactly exactly that pattern. Those were the exact same round wheels, but they couldn't tell because I made it 100% authentic to me and my characters, despite the fact that I had a rock solid foundation. So that's I think the key for you is that if you find a way of telling an aspect of what happened that feels like really beautifully in harmony with one of your favorite movies sort of patterns, dude, that that to me, I could see you just amazingly telling that story in a really powerful way.

Alex Ferrari 21:24
I appreciate that. Well, we'll see. We'll see I got a couple things I got to do this year.

Brooks Elms 21:30
And the broader thing for everybody is like anybody anybody who's doing memoir write something that's that's starting from a really personal place. It's tricky if we're too close to it, right? So this is a game of getting a real healthy distance. It's great that you're writing what you know, because it's going to resonate with authenticity, the game is to put it in a in a package that's more accessible to more people. depending on whatever audience size you want to serve. It's fine to do something obscure if that's really where your heart is. But if you want to do something that's really bigger and breaks through with a bigger audience, they're looking for a cleaner foundational package. And you can do that just by sort of, you know, understanding how the same but different works in terms of concept.

Alex Ferrari 22:09
Now, you mentioned Shawshank which everyone listened to the show knows my my love for Shawshank. And anytime we get to talk about Shawshank and analyzing and breaking it down, I think it's a benefit to every listener. I love to hear your thoughts on Shawshank and what Shawshank can teach us as writers as storytellers and the brilliance of what Frank Darabont did with a short a short story from Stephen King. Arguably still the worst title in movie history Shawshank Redemption it's absolutely horrendous title for marketing i'd love the title and it makes all the sense in the world but try to market that movie and they couldn't

Brooks Elms 22:53
terrible marketing decision

Alex Ferrari 22:56
but what do you call it though? But let me ask what do you call it if you can't call it a redemption will be but what do you call it?

Brooks Elms 23:01
No you it's about hope you basically not and obviously not like hope this or hope that but like something that evokes hope I would love to bring some really good title for that because I guarantee you won't look you can't do worse than that title right?

Alex Ferrari 23:15
Yeah it's pretty bad but it's like one of the worst titles that I still remember it was nominated for it was nominated for Best Picture didn't win anything down. I think it was not my first screening for I think it had to be nominated for Best screenwriting might have been might have been he got like it got like three or four Oscar nominations like some acting

Brooks Elms 23:32
i think i think its initial release I don't think it did very well i think it didn't buy but it kind of just limped along and then it got some awards and it got another bump but then it really picked up I think in in video dealing afterwards Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 23:45
yeah home video and then it then became number one on IMDB it beat the Godfather as the best movie of emotion love the movie of all time.

Brooks Elms 23:52
That's right That's right so um okay so here's here's here's my thoughts on the number one takeaway for anybody listening because I know these were all star fellow storytellers is to if you happen to like the movie, or especially if you love it, the best takeaway is really theme because the way they talk about hope versus despair is so beautiful and so powerful, and so clean and simple. But again, a lot of times with theme, it gets heavy, it's really hard to kind of track but with Shawshank it's so damn clear and compelling, but not like beating you over the head of head with it. But, but really easy to track. So and what you have is a really interesting dynamic of the way it's structured. So you have read play by Morgan Freeman, who I would characterize as actually the protagonist, even though Tim Robbins in 82 frame is driving the narrative so it's unusual usually are almost always our protagonist drives the narrative. But in this case, I would call read the protagonist because he changes in the end he goes from despair. Look, you can't use hope in this place. Hope will get you killed. You have to disappear. You have to be cynical about life. And then slowly he sees Andy like an effin freight train getting beat up and raped and all these terrible things happen over and over again. And he's afraid chain of hope and hope and hope and hope and hope and digs himself out and breaks out of with a break out of prison with like under a rock hammer for 10 years. I mean, that's the most magnificent expression of hope you could possibly believe. And he finally makes it out. And I think it's such a triumphant expression of hope over despair, and we all feel both of them. But to me, thematically, it's so powerfully laid out, and I think that's why it resonates so deeply. Plus there's some charm in those characters a warmth between that friendship between those two guys, but thematically it's a great model to study if you're confused about theme, or this or that. The thing

Alex Ferrari 25:50
that's so fascinating about about Shawshank for me, is that it on paper, it's it's a horrible pitch. It's a horrible, you know, you see the trailers like it's about a prison. It's a prison movie. It's like it doesn't hide that. Only once you experience it, do you understand the depth of it. And I remember seeing that it was what 94 so I think it was came out in 94. So I had just gotten out of high school a few years. And I was with a bunch of knucklehead friends of mine who were not movie goers, and they were touched. And when those guys were touched, I was like, wow, this is this hit this cut through everything. At that time, I even felt it. When I saw it into theater, I was just like, wow, this is this is a different kind of film. And Hollywood. Yeah. It was a very different kind of film. And I always my analysis of the film has always been like what I always ask the same question, why does it connect? Because we could all just pray for a connection with an audience like Shawshank, Kaz and in work What is it about that film because it's not obvious. It's not like rocky we get why people connect with rocky we connect with what people connect with. With Indiana Jones or or sort of Star Wars. We get it but Shawshank is so under the radar on the surface, you can't What do you think? here's

Brooks Elms 27:14
here's, you're gonna love this answer, because it's clear as day to me why it connects. And you can use that for your own story. It's because we feel despair. And the despair that I feel in my life as you know coddle white male and you know, in the richest country ever, is still hurts, it's scary to me. And when I see a depiction of it like that, like you know, the guys in prison and people are coming after him and he's his physical safety's his, and he was wrongly imprisoned and all these things, all these terrible things. And if that guy can have hope, in that place, holy crap, and then have it pay off by him actually getting out because that hope paid off after like, 1520 years, and it wasn't like, like a week. And to me, that speaks so deeply to all of us, because we all face oftentimes in a daily basis, an aspect sort of much lesser aspect, but an aspect of hope versus despair. Should I even got a bed you know, you feel despair. You don't want to get a bed and but you have hope and you climb out or whatever. So but it's that to me, it's so universal in our own way, that sense of Do we have hope? Do we have enough? Is there an opportunity for something to happen? And so like for your you know, your story about this guy who has this urgent hope that this movie is going to get made and he wants? He's got this beautiful dream? And then he's in this despairing place where he's getting involved with these people that are that are difficult so it's to me what you love about Shawshank? I you can bring out cinematically and what you love about your movie. In fact, when I work with people, that's exactly where I go to so I have the list of favorite movies. And we get into why they love them why Shawshank speaks so deeply to you? What does that hope versus despair really feel like in your real life? And I? Again, I haven't read the book, but I promise you, there are written there are things that went on in your real life that you sort of associate with this idea of hope versus despair that you also connect to Shawshank. And then what I do is I connect those things out so that when people write a movie that feel that has the same sort of pattern as Hollywood but it's authentic in a way that's really deep and personal. That's when it crackles with authenticity. And so that makes sense

Alex Ferrari 29:26
that may it makes it makes perfect sense. I mean I've always come I've always had a I've said this on the show before but I think the analogy of Shawshank and Andy the friends journey is what connects with people because you feel you are Andy defraying and in many ways, many of us in the world depending on where you live in the world. At one point or another feel imprisoned. Feel like the that the universe is doing is wrongly beating you attacking you. Bad things are happening to you, and you're innocent. And you're innocent of these bad things. And then that not only does he have hope to fight through all of that, but he literally crawls through a mile of shed. Then he literally gets out of that his cleanse from the gods of the shit, literally, this shit is coming off of him. He's taking the old clothes off of him, putting on a new suit, living the life that he has been dreaming about, for 15 years. And then on top of it all, he gets revenge the sweetest revenge on his jailers. And he literally lives on a frickin paradise. And that's, but that's why I think it feels so for me, for me, I mean, let's not get into the psychoanalysis of Alex Ferrari for a second, if anybody cares. For me, when I saw that movie, I didn't feel it as much as I felt it years later, where I hadn't been beat up by the business yet, as much. I had been beaten. I had I think when I saw Shawshank I hadn't The thing with the mob had happened to me yet. It was years away. So years later, that movie took another meaning for me, because of all the abuse that the business has given me. And failures that I've had that I'm like, why is this happened to me? Why can't I get the opportunity? Why can't someone open the door for me? Why can't I have my pickaxe, and to knock into some doors, and I felt imprisoned in miles. So there was a lot of that going on. And I think that's one of those things that when people watch it, they identify with,

Brooks Elms 31:47
so and that's exactly it, right? So the metaphor of being in prison, and even getting in and crawling through the shed. And all that stuff is, is a really good metaphor for how so many people feel about their life, how we psychologically process our life. And so when you do that, your own version of that, which is really great, because like most people don't experience prison, most people don't experience a run in with a mob. So it's a really beautiful, exaggerated metaphor for most people. Plus, you've got this hero with this beautiful, innocent Sweet dream. He wants to be a filmmaker, right? So it's, the key is in sort of, the takeaway I would invite for you to take it is just look at how much every scene there's conflict and conflict and conflict and conflict. So that allows us to feel like it's earned so much when it comes a lot of scripts you talked about what are some main things that sort of trip people up in terms of a great screenplay, a lot of times the conflict isn't strong enough. They, they take a little too easy, especially an Act to be when things that's when like Blake Snyder would say things are, because when bad guys close in, things can get much harder. A lot of screenwriters take their foot off the gas, we feel bad, because we love our hero, and it's hard for them. But now we need to burn their house down we need to because the more we torture them in act to be, the more powerfully they can rise from the act from the ashes in Act Three and be the hero they are meant to be.

Alex Ferrari 33:08
Without a good villain, you don't have conflict without a good villain, you can't have a hero be a hero. And that is as simple as that. And the balance is not to make the villain too powerful that the hero has no chance.

Brooks Elms 33:23
Well, well, I would I would do I would say it is, um, make the guy as absolute powerful as you can without losing plausibility. Right, that's Godzilla. I'm not going to win. It's stupid. Right? Right. And that's Godzilla then it's a decent fight.

Alex Ferrari 33:39
Right? Exactly. I know you want to make you know, Darth Vader's Darth Vader, you know, and you want that you want Hannibal Lecter to be Hannibal Lecter. But there's a chance like Apollo versus Rocky, which is I mean that there's not many movies from the 70s that still resonate To this day, in the way that they do, you know, like I could, I could show that to a 20 year old now. And they'll be like, Yeah, it looks a little dated, but I get it, and the music and all that stuff. But the Apollo and Apollo and the thing that was so brilliant about Rocky, in the first Rocky is that rocky didn't have any aspirations to beat Apollo. That was the brilliant move, and Stallone script. He didn't want to beat him. He just wanted to stay with

Brooks Elms 34:25
him was to let me jump in to things that I love about that as an example. So two things. One is one of my favorites is the double refusal of the call. He gets the opportunity to fight the champ and he goes, No, no, I'm just a bomb. I can't do it. Right. And then MIT comes so he basically says no, at first, right? And then Mick comes over and goes, dude, I can train champions, I can train you, you know, and he goes, No, No, I don't. So the double work because a refusal of a call is always a wonderful moment in Act One and they do it twice powerfully, then to your point at the end of Act Two I To my mind, I remember correctly he Oh, he once you committed to answer the call and commit, then he's like, Okay, I'm gonna take on it'd be the champ and at the end of Act Two, he's studying the tape over and over again and goes, I can't beat him. He's not darknight insulting. I can't beat that guy. But to your point, if I can go the distance, if I can hold my own, then I have the real win, which is my redemption and my dignity. That gives me chills just speaking. That's what we all want.

Alex Ferrari 35:29
I mean, it's it's fun when eight movies now it's more still, every time we're like, Okay, I'm gonna watch another one. I'm gonna watch it again. I could watch rocky 134 bolt six

Brooks Elms 35:44
and all the non renewals not a fan of Rocky two

Alex Ferrari 35:46
I don't mind rocky two as much I don't mind rocky two, but five is we should not discuss Five. Five is not to be discussed. It just goes right from four to Rocky Balboa. That's the way and that's actually the way he did it. I think. I think even still, I was like, Yeah, I don't know what I was doing back then. But the thing that was in it for everyone listening if you if you analyze Rocky, there literally could not be a villain like Apollo. There is absolutely no credible chance that Rocky Balboa should even be in the same room with him let alone in the ring with him. And as the movie goes on, you start seeing well wait a minute, he's cracking ribs of of cows. You're giving he's got a shot now is Kenny can he possibly beat the Titan? It's like the it's the mortal going after the Titan it's insane it's a wonderful thing.

Brooks Elms 36:38
It really is wonderful and I hadn't thought about it to to to just the way you said it there but but what's lovely about that construction is at the beginning Rocky's such a low point in his life he's so severely feeling self doubt and just hates himself and it just is and what is the opposite of that Apollo Creed perfect everything just content everything's the rich yeah with a beautiful mirror of each other which is a metaphor for us and part of us always feels that despair part of us feels that that power right and the movie really beautifully. You earn step by step to the point where the part of us that feels despair finds redemption in actually not even beating that beating the world champion just holding his own against the champ

Alex Ferrari 37:25
it's beautiful and the way and I love the way you were saying the the analysis of like he's the mirror image so he's the champ he's perfect he's got everything rock he's got nothing he's got self doubt so they're opposite they're mirror opposites of each other which is exactly what a villain and a hero should be his mirror opposites but as the movie continues and this is the brilliance of what Stallone did the the characters start getting closer together thematically, he starts to lose his confidence a bit he starts to gain it a bit till at the end of the movie they're even there even rocky has gone the distance with the champ the champ has now had a lost the fight or honestly lost the fight to rocky because he allowed a bomb to quote unquote bomb to hold them off and survive against the champ so when rocky two starts they're starting on even keel yeah that's the brilliant and it's just such a brilliant way of looking at it and you look at that now it's it's just it's been stolen a million times I mean how many times we've seen rocky it's like Star Wars

Brooks Elms 38:28
That's right. That's right well yeah and and if they steal it in the right way like we've been talking about the right amount of the same but different it's amazing and that's the tricky thing like when I do my own stuff and I work with other people it's really about dialing in the same amount of the same but different or the right amount because if it's too familiar then it's like boring. And if it's too different than it's like weird right? So you want familiar enough and fresh enough? You know the same but different.

Alex Ferrari 38:54
Did you see the movie warrior?

Brooks Elms 38:57
I did yeah. The MMA

Alex Ferrari 38:58
MMA fight. I absolutely love war. I think it's a master masterwork. It's easily the best MMA movie and there had been a few other MMA movies but then nothing that nothing that hooked it. But the thing that was so brilliant about warrior and because it's a rocky it's kind of a rocky ask there's an A you can mention rocky in the movie which is great. A Rocco you can bring Mickey that but the the emotion I remember seeing that in the theater I was bawling at the end I was bawling. My wife and I were sitting there and I was absolutely just like sniffles boogers coming out. I was on the ball and I connected so well. It because of the the emotional connection with the brothers. And the end of that, but it was just such a brilliantly constructed story. And then Tom Hardy was you know fabula it was it was amazing. It was amazing. Sorry, went off on a tangent there. But no, this is

Brooks Elms 39:55
great. My next project is like it's a fight film. So I love like a raging bull is my favorite fight. So

Alex Ferrari 40:00
I mean in Raging Bull, but like, you look at something like Raging Bull, and you just go, Well, why do I even bother? Sometimes, sometimes you make it. It's like watching you, you walk in and you see the Sistine Chapel. You're like, well, I just dropped the brush right now. It's, it's been done. But the thing is, it's not it's never been done to your, what you can bring to the table, and never underestimate that power. Not that you're going to be better. But there's something inside you that Martin Scorsese doesn't have. And vice versa.

Brooks Elms 40:31
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Exactly. Right. One of my favorite stories about Raging Bull is, is that I heard that when they went to get this thing set up at a studio, you know, dinero is in there with with Marty, and they're talking in the studio execs like, this thing. This guy's character is kind of like a cockroach. And dinero goes, No, he's not that it was just like, it was that conviction. And that non judgement of this is a human being. And I'm called the plan and that he was, he was a force of an actor, playing a force of a man. And it was to me that was like, yeah, that's why that movie is so good. The guy is really in a lot of ways. He's a terrible husband, a terrible brother, a terrible, he's what makes him amazing in the ring makes them terrible in his personal relationships, which you know, is this is a metaphor that lots of people can do. But like Scorsese, and Schrader and dinero all, we're so devoted to the authenticity of that character and those relationships, that they didn't judge them. And that made it so compelling because we all have those parts of ourselves that go too far in this way

Alex Ferrari 41:40
or that way. Yeah, there's no no question. And sometimes you you like to wallow in the dark areas of your life and you rarely wallow in the good I mean, sometimes you do, but it's it you have to learn, I know you have to learn it's a skill,

Brooks Elms 41:57
it for sure. So that's actually one of the other things I do in my own life. And when I help writers, we practice wallowing in the good stuff, because it makes it more you know, it's a marathon right? And it's easier it's less challenging to run the marathon when we have more good good feelings more often. So this this flow state I'm an absolute champion of getting people into the flow state staying in the flow state as long as possible when they get bumped out getting them back in because it feels better and be you get better results because it's more sustainable than then sort of cynicism.

Alex Ferrari 42:37
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that flow state for a minute because it's an interesting thing I've brought this up on on a multiple shows that I host because his I always find it fascinating when I when I talk to you know, some of these you know, Oscar winning or legendary writers or something like that, and I go, how how do you tap into that? Because you know, like when you're writing Forrest Gump, there's something going on, like you're, you're tapping into something else. And then and it's always there's the one offs that do that want a great script, and they never they never can reach that height again. That's one thing and they were just able to get in there for a second and then they left but then there's the people that just hold that career. And they just hit boom and boom and boom and boom, and you're just like, how do you continuously connect to that that state and what is that state and Where Where is that coming from? is always a bigger like Who's the man behind the Who's the man or the woman behind the curtain sending you this this information? I always feel that we're as writers we're just conduits we're conduits of something coming in. I think Spielberg said this, that his like ideas float around the universe and they pop into your head and if you don't do something about it, someone else will pick it up. And you might get the first crack at it and that's why he's always so like it was it was it him know as Prince Prince, I was talking to somebody who worked with Prince and Prince would call three o'clock in the morning to is like a singer. And like a musician like hey, when you're done like I don't know Prince's three o'clock in the morning. What do you what do you need? Ah, do you want to do want to come in and record like it's it's three o'clock in the morning? Can Can I wait four or five hours? He's like, no, if I don't get this Michael Jackson's gonna get it and I want to record it first. It's great. It's this great story but that's a true story.

Brooks Elms 44:33
It's fascinating that you went to a musician because the the the examples that popped into my mind right away are from a few different musicians because they just hear it. So one of them was Chris Martin in an interview and there was just and you just see it, he goes, it was like he was in a listening state. He just said it just I was listening and it came through it came to me, Paul McCartney was like, one of his best songs. He woke up in the morning. He heard The song in his head he was like, Oh, yeah. Who Yeah, who sings this one? Who's this? And he kind of is, like, I'm not I've never heard that one. You know this one? Oh, he realized, Oh, no, but it was me. So it's this thing. It's a state of listening as opposed to like leaning forward. I'm writing my story. It's I'm listening to the universe in this flow state. And that's when we get to the height of our creativity. Same thing with Bob Dylan. I listened to an interview with him a couple days ago. And there it was, like in the interview was a 60 Minutes interview. He's like, he said, You were blown in the wind in 10 minutes. And he goes, yeah. And it was like, and I was looking at him. And it was the same energy. I saw around the other two, same thing with Prince he. And he was like, Well, how did you do it? And you just see him. It's almost like he's radio tuning. You just see him going here. And he was like, yeah, it just, it just came to me, he opened up in a way, and it came through. And then he also didn't, he also said, the same thing is like, I haven't been able to get to that quite flow state

Alex Ferrari 45:54
channel, that channel again, I can't I can't tune into that channel, again,

Brooks Elms 45:57
that that's what he said, but but to the people that are musicians or filmmakers, or whatever, that are able to sort of sustain optimal creative flow over decades, they have a repeatable process of getting into that listening mode, a way of sort of opening up and being soft, and you, you know, you'd have you spoken to all these amazing people, and I'm sure you see, there's almost a lightness of energy, when you talk to those people that are really hitting on that level, at least when they're doing their thing, it'll open and it'll flow and then you don't know where to hide, you're almost like a stenographer. It's like Oh, I didn't write this there's it's coming through me through me in service to the audience. And so that's one of my as a coach is one of my favorite things to do is make choices in my relationship when I'm listening to somebody to induce that flow state really deeply and as often as possible, and then when they show up on a call in and they're, they're having a tough day or whatever, I make choices that kind of just nudge them slightly up or give them really hold space I listen to them and let them unfold into that flow state so that they optimize their creativity. I love it.

Alex Ferrari 47:03
It's no it's amazing. I've actually felt that in an editing I've done that a lot like you feel the flow of the cuts and you just and then all of a sudden you're like I've been sitting here for six hours that's the state

Brooks Elms 47:16
that's all you know. Yeah. But with my

Alex Ferrari 47:19
books my two books that I've written both of them I'll go back to and I'm like who wrote this because it's just channeled through me it really I mean yes I obviously shooting for the mob is my story but the words of putting the story together I would just write and then I would go back and read it I'm like who wrote this like I see Same thing with Rise of the entrepreneur which is a it's a more of a nonfiction it's actually a nonfiction book, instructional book. Even then I'm like the concepts and stuff I know all of them but like who put I don't remember writing that. I don't remember writing this like how who wrote the book? This is good.

Brooks Elms 47:57
So so here's here's an interesting thing. So um, one of the reasons I love one of the things I did about Shawshank I Shawshank Redemption, I made this video about how you can read Shawshank Redemption as a law of attraction story, right? So law of attraction is this idea that you basically, however you show up, you will attract the energy of how you show up. So if you show up feeling successful, you attract success in general, right? That's a lot of other parts to it. But I did a video where I was showing you sort of walking through Shawshank with that lens of law of attraction. So instead of hope versus despair, it was sort of attracting versus sort of repelling. But it's significant in this context. Because when we, because some of those law of attraction people that when they're talking, they actually say they're channeling and they're saying it's coming from some people say aliens, or some people say spirits, right? And look, they might be I don't have that personal experience. But from my perspective, exactly what you said, it's like you felt like it almost wasn't coming from you. And so when some of those law of attraction, people talk about it, they believe literally, it's not coming from them. And who cares, because it puts them in a state of them being able to say, I'm spreading more joy. I'm helping people better on coming up with really deep, powerful ideas more often more consistently. So to my mind, I don't give a crap where how you're talking about it, whether it's aliens or spirits, or just like you or I see it as a sort of the Muse or creativity that comes through. If you're getting to those really beautiful, powerful ideas in a flow state. Great. That's what matters. Yeah. And

Alex Ferrari 49:32
I'm always fascinated about where creativity comes from. You know, I've been fascinated by this. Why always, I'd love asking some of these heavy hitters that come on the show of like, how do you do it? Like, how, where does it come from? And I was I was interviewing on another show, Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer of Iron Maiden. Wow, cool. And what a great conversation that was. And when I was talking to him, I was I asked him I'm like, Man What does it feel like? Being in Wembley Stadium? With 90,000? People? Like what it like, I'm never gonna get that i don't i don't i don't i don't think anytime soon 90,000 people gonna show up to hear me talk. So maybe one day, I don't know, but that's not happening right now. So, not many of us are ever going to feel that. But what does that feel like? And then when you're singing? Where does that come from? Because it's it's one thing to sing. And then there's another thing to perform at a level like that. Regardless if you'd like his music or not, is irrelevant. irrelevant. And he's like, he goes, Oh, it's not me. It just comes through me. Um, am I gonna complete I don't even I don't even know where I'm at when I'm on stage, almost. So it's flying through me. And then I go, Well, how do you get off that train? Like when you're on it? He's like, Oh, I have I have a whole routine after the show. Because like how the high of 90,000 Pete that energy coming towards you. Like as read as screenwriters and filmmakers. We don't get that the closest we get to that is that audience in a movie theater, or at a festival? That's the that's the closest we get to it. And that's really intense. It's Oh, God, if you have I've had been that I've been in that room when that standing ovations and people asking you questions, and all that attention and all that stuff.

Brooks Elms 51:28
And that's hot, explosive energy.

Alex Ferrari 51:31
It is someone like but can you imagine 90,000? like Paul McCartney, like, if I ever got a chance to talk to him, I'm like, How? Like, how is it? How do you live as you know, being the most, most famous human being on the planet?

Brooks Elms 51:48
Here's a great little poll. If you look at the clip of when he was doing a carpool karaoke with

Alex Ferrari 51:56
who's that guy does. James James Gordon James.

Brooks Elms 51:58
There's a really beautiful exchange. And it speaks to this idea that lightness of energy, where they're, they're talking, and, and he's going a while, you know, this is amazing, my dad who died if he knew that I was talking to you right now. And then Paul McCartney goes, he is he's listening. And there was again, there was this this lightness and other worldliness of how he's able to open to something. And, and Dave coordinates are crying. And that's it. And we our job as storytellers are, is to elicit emotion really deeply. And when we can get into sort of this open sort of flowing, ephemeral, sort of spiritual state, those ideas flow, and we're able to elicit motion much more deeply. And so there's a craft to sort of inducing it more often. And if you sort of make those choices, and there's things like meditation, or all sorts of different things, but like, whatever your sort of process is to find your own way. And to make that really the priority, like my priority is I get up and I find that flow state and from that flow state, all these other good things happen, as opposed to my job is to write a screenplay or to cross this next milestone or whatever those are to concrete and they put you down to sort of earthy, what you really want if you're being in the creative, professional creative, to find a way into that floaty, daydreaming state as consistently as deeply as possible because that's where your best ideas are gonna come.

Alex Ferrari 53:25
You know what's funny, I talking about light energy. You know, when I talk to some of these, some of these amazing creatives, the ones that are like that are at the top of their game. Almost all of them had an extremely light energy. They weren't heavy, they weren't heavy. Then there's very accomplished writers and filmmakers who I've talked to who who it seems like they almost grind it out they almost like by pure force are grabbing and creating amazing things. But it's their own physic almost their own will that's pushing them where someone like a Paul McCartney could just go Hey, dude. Hey, dude, okay,

Brooks Elms 54:14
here's my theory on that I love you brought it up. My theory is the grinders are succeeding despite the grind, correct that it's the flow is what works for everybody. Some people are able to more easily flow. Other people have to grind it out and haven't learned to sort of soften the grind part. And they're so good and so talented. There's, they're succeeding despite that sort of effort, grinding, hard work, kind of constipated energy. You want to let that thing flow.

Alex Ferrari 54:41
And that's the thing and that's constipated. Energy is a great word to use. Because, you know, and we talked a little bit about this before we started recording, but like someone like Spielberg, he has a very light energy to him, and everybody and I've talked to a ton of people who worked with him, you know, and I've hear stories on air and OFF AIR about Miss Spielberg and you just go I understand I get I get I get why he Steven Spielberg

Brooks Elms 55:07
I've heard that same exact thing that it's not that you talk to him and there's a there's at once a normalcy. He's totally normal and totally infatuated with the process at the same time. And that's that and that's that sort of light light balances, it's Yeah, it's amazing, it's and, and he makes it sustainable. That's why he's able to hit in multiple decades, because he's able to put himself in that flow state so deeply, so consistently in so many different variables and variations, cuz you're, it is a shark infested business, right? So can I It's one thing for you and I to kind of have a cool conversation about flow here. But can I keep that flow going, a when I'm writing and be when I'm on meetings, and see when I'm in all the more places in your life, you can up that volume of that flow state and be in there, the more success you have in to me somebody like Spielberg is master

Alex Ferrari 55:56
and you but you, but I think also the thing that stops us from doing that is just the the, for lack of a better term, the crap that is surrounding us in living life, the the crap that then in the the frames goes through, like literally, it's this heavy shit that's been thrown on to us. And that could be childhood stuff that could be anger, that can be, you know, envy, that could be ego, all of that is, is holding us down. But if you can shed it, shut it, shut it off. That's when you can become lighter and open up to these other areas.

Brooks Elms 56:35
And here's here's how to how to help you shift that, who put that shit on me. A lot of people say, Oh, it was my parents. No, no, I put it on myself, maybe because my parents were modeling it or whatever happened to my thing. But here's the powerful thing is, I created that reality as a kid, I created how I respond to that. I'm creating my reality now. So if I have if I have a shitty reality, I have the power to create a little less shitty reality, less shitty, less shitty, and eventually really magical, amazing reality. It's us owning our own perceptual system. I mean, it's got to be based on on objective reality, right? There's a there's definitely a consistent reality outside of our subjectivity. But we have a tremendous ability to choose how we respond to objective reality. And that's where that real power comes in our life.

Alex Ferrari 57:34
I'll tell you from my point of view, you know, coming up, I was an angry and bitter guy, because I felt that it was just I wasn't getting that. First of all in my 20s I'm like, why hasn't anyone recognize my genius? I mean, obviously, why don't they don't they understand? Don't they understand who I am? I mean, come on. So when that didn't so you when you didn't become Steven Spielberg or my our generation Robert Rodriguez, because he was the one that kind of like that was the that was the lottery ticket for our generation, no question. So like, if we're not Tarantino or Robert or Linkletter or Smith or any of the guys that came up in the 90s, we have failed. So when I couldn't get to that place, or for whatever reason the universe didn't open up that that those opportunities I became extremely angry, extremely bitter, and that completely stifles any sort of creativity. It stifles everything the moment I launched indie film hustle and let go of Allah all that anger and started to give and started to be of service and start writing my energy became lighter. Don't get me wrong I am perfect I'm definitely not Gandhi. But but I noticed it and this is something only us old farts can talk about. As you get older you start seeing these things some people never learn in a lifetime yeah but I started seeing that entered in then that's when things start then I made my first feature that I made my second feature that I wrote my books then doors that were shut to me all my life doors that would i would kill to talk get into are wide open now. So it was it's really interesting and if you look at some of the I don't want to get religious if you look at some of the spiritual leaders even some spiritual like a Gandhi, sure, sure. There they are not a heavy energy. There they there's a very light lightness to it and I don't want to get Fufu about it. But when we say light energy is kind of like this. You feel it when you meet somebody. People feel like when you meet somebody you just like, I gotta take a shower or Oh my God, I want to be around them. Like I don't know if you've ever been in a room with a movie star. Before I you know, when you when you meet a movie star, who is a real, real movie star, not a fallen star, not a star up and coming movie star. And when you're in the room with them, you'll go Oh, I get it. Don't say Word, and you just get that energy from them, you're like, Oh,

Brooks Elms 1:00:03
this is that's it's that it factor that they talk about. And it absolutely is an energetic thing. They're one way or another able to sort of, sort of show up with a certain type of energy that just is different than the way most people can do it. And part of its, there's an authenticity to it, and a sort of probably a lack of attachment to it. I mean, there's a qualities of how you sort of, sort of facilitate that in yourself. But you're right, they have a politician, I had a friend that met Bill Clinton, he was at some show, like at the Met. And he said, Man, after he walked on stage, and he said, he'd literally never seen somebody that like, literally looked like a million bucks. It was just an aura of energy. And he's not like an energy guy. But he was like that dude had this. And that's the thing. It's like he just, and obviously the President is there's a lot of stuff going on, right. But in terms of like, I mean, that's a need, but like, but movie stars have. And what's great about everybody that's listening, it's not anybody can do it every all of us can be we all are limited by what our own sort of biology believes. But we can be at the max of our own ability. By looking into these in your own way. What sort of spiritual shifts are energetic shifts, there's things you, I promise you, you can do in the return on that investment. It's so phenomenally better for your joy. And as you do that inside job and make those shifts, everything else is better. You write better stories, you have better relationships, it all happens, but it's got to start inside first. Like Like, if you don't do that, and you win the Oscar or whatever, you still feel miserable. And sometimes you feel even more of a fraud because you haven't got the inside job worked out.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:42
Oh, yeah, I've seen I've spoken to people like that, that have won an Oscar and I'm like, so what's it like afterwards? You're like, I feel worse sometimes. You know, it was cool that night, but then afterwards, then what? Then at last for a little bit, and then it's heartbreaking. It's you got a gotta get back up there again, like and then just like, this is like one of the Super Bowl like, Yeah,

Brooks Elms 1:02:05
well, that was where I was going. My one of my favorite stories around this is Phil Jackson's is he, before he like after the bowls, I think when he started coaching the Lakers, he wrote this book called sacred hoops. And he talked about when he as a player won the NBA championships for the Knicks. And they went to like Tavern them green and Robert Redford was there and Dustin Hoffman was there. And he was like, Oh, my whole life was like man to win an NBA championship. And I'm here, and he felt empty, F and felt empty. And he was like, What the hell. And it was because he was, which most people do, he was saying, the outcome defines who I am, as opposed to, I'm just, I'm just a soul that's expressing myself and my, my, my, my sort of purpose on life is to be happy is to be in this flow state. And then from there, I'm a great athlete, or great this or great, whatever. And he and for him, it was a real threshold moment that he was supposed to be the happiest point in his life. And he wasn't, it was a big part of the spiritual journey. So no, it's every day I show up every day, I chop wood and carry water. I can't go up and find my state of happiness in service to people. I love that story for you is that you found that that that place from I'm kind of a victim, things are happening to me to No, no, I'm going to take ownership in my life, you knew so much about independent film, and you started helping people this way and that way the other way. And that spiraled you up and up and up and up, and you can see it your your energy really shines in a way that's different now than it was 10 years ago. It's really awesome.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:36
I appreciate that. I truly appreciate that. And one other area that we all go through we talked we've talked about a little bit is failure. And we all had those those those blocks those things, you know, things not working out the way you go through how do you approach failure in the business in you know, because that script didn't get picked up, that didn't sell that script, I couldn't get the money for the movie. Oh, that's that that actor dropped out or a million things that could have happened. me with my shooting for the mob, I literally got as closest to hanging out with Batman at his house. And I mean, that's as close as you're going to get literally other than being on set, and then getting yanked from you. And that threw me in a two year depression and all of that kind of stuff. So how do you break through these because we all go through it. And it doesn't matter what level you're at. I mean, Spielberg still goes through it, you know, all of them do. Yeah, they go through their own versions of failure, obviously. But how do you get through it?

Brooks Elms 1:04:31
It's exactly what I just said it's it's prioritizing flow state and joy and service above all, right, because when we can be you know, and it's and it's a practice, right, and I'm really, really good at it, and I still stumble with it, right? But when my priority is I'm going to show up, and I'm going to find, you know, authentically, you can't just be like DS, you know, head in the clouds, whatever. You have to sort of be in your body and be of spirit right is the balance of those things. And when you can do that legitimately with authenticity, differentiated from outcome, that's when you know you're nailing it. And so the outcome could be deal goes through good or deal goes through bad you can be gotta be differentiated from either one could be a health crisis, relationship, crisis, business, it's all the same thing, all those things, you will be happy to the extent those things are secondary to your number one priority is I show up, and I'm an open human being. And I'm existing, and I'm trying to help other people. And that's, again, it takes practice, but anybody listening to this, if this sounds like Oh, you know what, there's some truth in it, find your way to practice, because you can do and I promise you, the more you practice this in your own way, in own style, the dividends are amazing. And what happens is you get the end, once you get the inside job shifted, that everything else out in your life, your relationships are gonna get better businesses getting better, you're just not because you know how it works in Hollywood. So you can't be desperate, and you can't be boring, right? You're not boring, you're authentic, and you're not going to be desperate. If you differentiate from outcomes, then you become that cool kid in high school. It's like, Okay, all right, everything's fine. Everything's great. And so wherever you are in your journey, if you have this energy of it's perfect the way it is. Now, it's effin awesome. More good. Things are coming and I'm already here. Everybody wants to work with that guy. If you're the crankier one, then it's it gets sketchy.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:26
Yeah, and the that energy of death I I always joke about the desperation as a cologne. We all can smell it in the business. It's it's called desperation by Calvin Klein. And we can and we can smell it, Amelie, and I know it because I used to wear a desperation quite often, especially when I first got to LA. And you would meet one producer somewhere in a set and you'd be on them like white on rice. And you were just like, what can you do for me? How can you help me How about Baba Baba? And is the wrong way of approaching it. And it's only afterwards where you just go when you sit back and you're like, hey, that works out great. If it doesn't, it's all good. You got that kind of energy to it. People want to work with that energy is much more so than somebody like me. Maybe I can help Canada desperation. It's horrible. And I don't know about you. I've only met a couple of desperate screenwriters in life. Not many. Not many. Never just as rare to meet filmmakers or screenwriters who are desperate. No, I'm joking. I kid who I love. Because we all have been there we've all been that desperate person and if you can break through that, that's where that's why you see some people make it

Brooks Elms 1:07:40
and what's so interesting is screenwriters. What do you Who is the screenwriter, you imagine stuff you imagine worlds you imagine things so screenwriters imagine this beautiful life for yourself. And again, an authentic way, not in a BS way. But like, look at the abundance in your life, the abundance of air, the abundance of like you're going to eat today problem, you're going to have all these few friends, there's so much you can frame legitimately, again, not be asked but like, authentically frame your life in abundance, no matter what's happening. And when you do that, in using the same muscles that you write screenplays in use, imagine this grounded, beautiful, blissful life for yourself and frame it that way. There was a way it struck me. A couple months ago, I was walking to Trader Joe's with my, my, you know, 14 year old son, we're going in there to you know, run an errand. And I had this really beautiful moment of going, Oh, if I was like 10 years, or 20 years in the future, thinking back to this moment, it would be so sort of romanticized and lovely. And then I was like, oh, but I can do that now. And so in that moment, totally mundane error. Aaron with my son, I romanticize that and it was so beautiful, just to be there as a as a dad with his son did nothing. We picked up some lettuce for lunch or whatever, you know, but it was so beautiful. And that ability for me to go, Oh, I can frame my existence in a way that's really beautiful the way we might frame a shot as a director, whereas the way we frame a scene as a screenwriter, you can frame your own existence. And I'm telling you guys, the more you do that, everything slowly up levels.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:15
And I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Brooks Elms 1:09:25
Um, the longest to learn? Yeah, was was that the nowness you know, that I that I have the power to celebrate, right now.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:38
What did you learn from your biggest failure?

Brooks Elms 1:09:43
Um, that it was not the failure. It was my response to the failure and how I what I was talking to myself about what I said, you know, because I failed, that I'm not good enough for this enough or whatever. And as I got more familiar with that voice, And kind of befriended that inner voice then the failure became a really beautiful lesson but in the moment that it happened it didn't feel that way.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:09
And what are three screenplays every screenwriter should read

Brooks Elms 1:10:13
Oh, your favorite three Oh really? yeah yeah no I hate and one of the things at NYU film school I had this one instructor that was like oh you have to watch this Lester's movie and I was like you know what if you I'm never watching them and it was a movie I would have liked but I just I resented that he was telling me I should so I'm very much the mindset that whatever you personally want to read or watch and just the amount that you want to watch it or read it is the ideal amount so five minutes in a Netflix you don't like it, turn it off, five minutes into my screenplay. If you're reading it five pages you don't like it put it down I want you to put it down I want you guys focus on what you love most by your personal perspective because to me that is the most powerful thing you can do for yourself

Alex Ferrari 1:11:03
and where can people get a hold of you and find out what you're doing?

Brooks Elms 1:11:08
Brooks alums coaching comm is my website for if you if you want to sort of explore working with me and there's two main programs that I that I do one is helping people develop a script one is helping people get it sold and and if not me I mentors that I that I because I don't I don't do hourlies sometimes people want our leads and I have other people that that I basically refer them to Although you are the guy to hire if for any sort of independent films guy's telling you because here's the here's the thing let me let me plug you for a second because he's got the Amazon of of internet information for for independent filmmakers you got right and you got everything a lot of it's free. You got premium, you got the whole damn thing. But I'm telling you guys, you don't know what you don't know. And so hire Alex for a couple hours and tell them I think I know this about making my next film or I think I know this or that. And he will go Yeah, you're right here, you're This is correct. But this, you're totally off. And you'd rather get that in one hour from a master like Alex and grow for years to figure it out for yourself and go god dammit, Alex could have told me that last year, but I didn't figure it out. So hire somebody that knows at whatever budget you can, and I'm telling you that's going to speed up your game so much,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:22
I I appreciate that wholeheartedly for that plugs. Or I can tell you from my experience, coaching could save you I've literally sometimes I've had someone give me an hour of their time. And they hire me for an hour and I save them. He's like you just saved me 50,000 bucks. I'm like, because you didn't know I mean, I know I've walked this path man, hire someone who's walked the path. It doesn't have to be me, it could be anybody that you feel comfortable with. But if they can give you an hour to talk into someone coaching that could be Oh my god, it's it's seen what you can learn in in an hour and 16 minutes on your story. It could save you six months, it could save you $60,000 it could save you so much time talking to someone who's just walked and they don't have to particularly be a master, they just have to be ahead of where you're at.

Brooks Elms 1:13:15
Right? Exactly right. It doesn't exam because some people will talk themselves out of getting that help because oh, I haven't heard of anything they've done or this or that or blah blah blah. But it doesn't matter if the guy at Trader Joe's has a good idea to help you with your script or whatever hire him do whoever can help you move one step forward is great. And you don't we don't know what we don't know. So even if here's what happens, this is never gonna happen. But if you guys hire Alex, and he goes, do you got it? Awesome. Yeah, I'm not worried about this, your ideas great, this is great. And he gives you no other tips other than to you are in great shape. That's like the best money ever spent, you're gonna have so much more confidence. It's so great. And of course, that's not going to happen. He's got all sorts of good ideas. But like that feedback loop is really where we make the most progress as quickly as possible. So find some sort of mentor in some sort of way. And that's the fastest way for us.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:06
Brooks. It has been a pleasure talking to you, my friend. I'm sure we'll have you back on the show in the future day. But thank you so much for all you do for screenwriters and filmmakers and thanks for being on the show brother. I appreciate it.

Brooks Elms 1:14:17
Completely, my honor. And my pleasure.

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BPS 142: Changing Television Forever with Showrunner David Chase

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The legacy of the crime drama television series, The Sopranos remains a defining art of storytelling for mob TV shows. We have the genius behind this hit TV series, David Chase as our guest today. 

As expected, Chase is a twenty-five-time Emmy Awards-winner, seven times Golden Globes winner, and highly acclaimed producer, writer, and director. His forty-year career in Hollywood has contributed immensely to the experience of quality TV. 

Before getting into the nitty-gritty of Chase, let’s do a brief of the HBO 1999 hit show, The Sopranos: Produced by HBO, Chase Films, and Brad Grey Television, the story ran for six seasons, revolving around Tony Soprano, played by James Gandolfini, a New Jersey-based Italian-American mobster, portraying the difficulties that he faces as he tries to balance his family life with his role as the leader of a criminal organization.

The series has been the subject of critical analysis, controversy, and parody, and has spawned books, a video game, soundtrack albums, podcasts, and assorted merchandise. During its run, the film earned multiple awards, including the Peabody, Primetime Emmy, and the Golden Globe Awards. 

Even though David has continued to dominate his craft, with other works like The Rockford Files, I’ll Fly Away, Not Fade Away, Northern Exposure, Almost Grown, Switch, etc, he is still most known for his television directorial debut, The Sopranos.

The genius is back with the Sopranos prequel, The Many Saints of Newark, which stars Alessandro Nivola and James Gandolfini’s son Michael Gandolfini as a young Tony Soprano. It has been in theaters and on HBO Max since October 1, 2021.

The plot explores the life of Young Anthony Soprano. Before Tony Soprano, there was Dickie Moltisanti, Tony’s uncle. Young Anthony Soprano is growing up in one of the most tumultuous eras in Newark’s history, becoming a man just as rival gangsters begin to rise up and challenge the all-powerful DiMeo crime family’s hold over the increasingly race-torn city.
Caught up in the changing times is the uncle he idolizes, Dickie Moltisanti, who struggles to manage both his professional and personal responsibilities-and whose influence over his nephew will help make the impressionable teenager into the all-powerful mob boss we’ll later come to know: Tony Soprano.

We also talk a bit about David’s five-year, first-look deal to create shows for HBO parent WarnerMedia. More culture moments, please!

Let’s get into the chat, shall we?

Enjoy my entertaining conversation with David Chase.

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

  • David Chase – IMDB
  • The Sopranos (Season 1) – Amazon

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Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome to the show, David Chase. Thank you so much, David, for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time.

David Chase 0:16
Nice to see you.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thank you, my friend. So, you know, I'd like to just start off with how did you get started in the business? How did you What was your first entry into this business?

David Chase 0:34
I went to film school. And while I was there, I co wrote a script, a spec script, which our film, which our screenwriting teacher sent to a TV producer named Roy Hogan. And so we created Maverick. You know, that is, of course,

Alex Ferrari 0:57
it was Jim's spot for us, I think garden

David Chase 1:03
Maverick and run for your life and a bunch of other stuff. And he liked the script, my friend had given up and go back to Chicago. And like a year later, this guy called me or I don't forget, we got he got in touch with me universal, gotten in touch with me and said to call him and he hired me to do an episode and professional writing job.

Alex Ferrari 1:34
Now how but what made you want to become a writer? What made you want to become a filmmaker in general?

David Chase 1:43
Well, something was drawing after a certain age. In high school, I think something was drawing me to what we now call showbusiness. Right. And we call it that then, but it wasn't showbusiness that was drawing me it was. I didn't realize it then. But it was art, I guess. We didn't say it was pop art, but it was art. because of things like Twilight Zone

Alex Ferrari 2:21
I chose.

David Chase 2:23
But mostly, it was the Beatles and The stones that plan doing that got me interested in creating things. And I wanted to be a rock and roll performer for a long time. I played the drums and I was also lead vocalist in this nothing band that never went anywhere. And at the same time, I was I had switched schools and I was going to school. No, no, I remember now see you ever gonna regret this? I went to a school, a college in North Carolina called Wake Forest college, which is now Wake Forest. University. And it was a very, I don't know why I went down. There was a was a mistake. There was the South in 1963. And the Klan was active and all those bad things were going on. And I don't think there was one black student there was one black student in the freshman class. And I believe he was from Africa. And Ghana gambling wasn't allowed on campus. Dancing wasn't allowed on campus. Drinking wasn't allowed on campus and playing cards was not allowed on campus. It was it was the Sunday I don't know whether they owned it or who was affiliated with the southern baptist church. And somehow or other on Friday nights. So you can imagine. Listen to Tim. Well, here's the thing. It was still. It was a good college. I mean, the teaching was good. It wasn't really anti diluvian. You know, we're not talking about Jerry Falwell Academy or whatever. And on Friday nights, I don't know who did it or why they had a foreign film night. And so I saw Well, you name it. All the ones you need to see. I saw eight and

Alex Ferrari 4:35
of course our Fellini. Yeah.

David Chase 4:37
Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't know how many weeks you're in the semester, but it's all one every week. And I was I was completely blown away. I mean, I had like movies. And so I was a kid and I like television, you know, I just liked it. And maybe always wanted to be part of something like that. So I saw I saw those movies. And then comes Bob Dylan. And then comes the Beatles, and within a few months, the Rolling Stones, and that to me, was art. And that's what I wanted to do. And I had seen one Fellini film the age of 15 or 16. It was part of a trilogy. I forget what it was called but the his part was called the something of the temptation of Dr. Antonio anyone I've seen a movie like that. I couldn't conceive. It was just so wonderful. It was so imaginative It was so out there.

Alex Ferrari 5:52
Selena

David Chase 5:54
always loved movies but I'd never seen a movie like that.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
So all those years that you were working in, especially in the early years working in the writers rooms on on shows like The Rockford Files and and things like that. Did you what was the biggest lesson you took out of working in a writers room like you know either tips or tricks that to survive in a writers room or thrive in a writers room or how to crack a story? What does that less than that the one thing that you took from the early years

David Chase 6:25
well, I did not work in writers rooms until until I got the Northern Exposure okay there were no writers rose at the time when I was starting Rockford house was written by Stephen Cannell Juanita Bartlett, me and occasionally Gordon Dawson. There was no writers rooms and we our whole way of breaking story was different. And I before my time, I guess when I was still a kid, the standard I guess the Writers Guild definition of television was there was a producer, a story editor. And like for the defenders, you know, that is I remember the defenders. Yeah, but the defenders are Naked City or whatever. There was a producer, a story editor at an older writers were hired from a freelance world of freelance writing. And we've got more and more group oriented as time went on,

Alex Ferrari 7:37
do you like the older way or the writers room way?

David Chase 7:47
I think I like the writers room way. Honestly, because you could, you were swapping stories and memories. I mean, the other way was great, too. But when you sat down to break a story, that's what you did. You talked about the story. And it had very little to do with your real life. But writers rooms for whatever reason, at lunch, or even whatever it was, people would start the bullshit, start to shoot the shit. And that was always fun. Obviously, it's like, you know, like, seminal guys hanging out at a gas station in Virginia, you know. And let's read a lot of the stories we come from. If you and I were in with six other people, you tell a story about what happened to you when you crash the car into your father's station wagon or whatever. And that becomes a story somehow not in that form. But of course, it was a story. And I really liked I liked the socialization of the writers.

Alex Ferrari 8:51
Now when you when you had the idea for the sopranos, how did the sopranos come to, to life into an agenda?

David Chase 8:59
It came to life because my mother Norma Jace was I would say, mentally ill. And he took care of me. He wasn't like institutionalised, but he took care of me if you worried about me, she was a good mother. She did. But she was full of fears, obsessions, hatreds, and all that which was passed down to me. And also which were many of which were ludicrous. And I would tell people stories about my mother and I would always get a laugh and I My wife said to me when we got we weren't of your late 20s. So you got to write something about your mother someday, you got to write a show about your mother. And I didn't, didn't have any idea of how to go about that. And then later on, I was doing a show. I was I created and was running called, almost grown. And one of the writers Robin green said, you ought to write a series about your mother, like a producer with a mother, a troublesome mother. And I, I heard that, but I thought, who wants to see that a TV producer and his mother looks like anything. And then I realized, well, maybe if it was a tough guy who was a guy in the mafia, and his mother, maybe that would be good. And I tried to pitch that as a movie with Robert De Niro and Anne Bancroft. And wasn't much interest in my agent told me forget about it, mob comedies are going nowhere. And mob movies, so I let it be. And then someone. Years later, when I was signed with a company called Brillstein gray, to develop TV shows, they told me that they thought, how would I like they said, I had a great sick TV series, and it's inside me. I had never thought of and didn't want. I wanted to be in the movies. I was intelligent, because I'd gotten in there and and took the jack took the money. But I didn't want to be there. I want to I was always writing movie scripts on spec. So they said, How about do a TV version of the Godfather? And I said, No, I have no interest in that random. I thought the Godfather has been done. You get a bunch of guys, long coats and 50s cars. And then I was driving home. And I thought I'm going to a movie but the model mid level mobster with a troublesome mother tries to kill him because she, he put her in a nursing home. I thought maybe that'd be a TV show. And about him and his family and his work. And maybe that would work in TV because it's got a lot of interesting women in it. And TV, in many ways is kind of a was a woman's medium. At least that's what I thought. And so we pitched it to Fox, they bought it. I did a script. They didn't buy that. But two years went by Brad gray, the head of the company, went to Chris Albrecht at HBO told him the story pitched it to him. I went there. And then there's it also in my version, they bought it.

Alex Ferrari 13:02
And so when you when you started doing the it seems to me from watching the series, that I mean, you were breaking rules left and right. I mean with the you know, with Tony Soprano is the protagonist and, and the anti hero and television It was kind of like not really, there was nothing like that in network television before. No, nothing like that before. And you You didn't just sit on that you kept pushing. You kept like Episode Five, specifically a college, which is one of my favorite episodes. It's really a game changing episode because of the way Tony is the first time you see the main character of a TV series, do some extreme violence. On screen. No, no fluff. I and I've heard from from other interviews, you've done that. At the studio, HBO was like, you're going to you're going to destroy the show before I even get started.

David Chase 14:00
Chris Albrecht, who never gave me a moment's aggravation about anything. And said some very smart things when we were getting started. Crystal Breton's really angry. And I said, Well, you had the script. You know, that's the purpose of giving you the script. So you read it say they at that time before we spent all this money. Stop. Well, it didn't dawn on me until I saw it on the screen. Anyway, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 14:33
And, and, and I also notice that you love to do kind of almost one offs. Kind of like episodes that are standalone, that are not specifically about the overarching plot of the season, which is also against the grill against the grain as well, because normal normal shows, at least prior to its paranhos would you know every episode had to move things along, but you almost went to crap. character development in life, specifically, episode college. You know, it really didn't have anything to really do with the overarching plot. But but the development of Tony Soprano and his daughter's relationship is, is game changing? Is that is that did you did you love going into this when you were doing series? to do these stand? alones just to kind of explore characters? Oh, yes,

David Chase 15:26
I did. Well see, my whole thing was okay, I've got a, they want me to do 13 episodes of this thing. But what I can do, what I want to do is 13 little movies that are just making movies. But with this show. And I think it was, I don't know, HBO or Brillstein gray or whoever it was said notice the the the episodes she tied together, there should be an overall plot in in the season, and I was really against that I don't want to do that. It's I said, it's gonna be like Dallas, like a fucking soap opera. I don't want to do that. Right. And I don't know whether they talked me into it. All right. I just knuckled under. And actually that you know, they were it. I think we really made something that I think it became one of the best part to the show.

Alex Ferrari 16:32
But you but when you're doing all of this, I mean, you're you're really going against the grain on on so many things of television. I mean, when you were doing the

David Chase 16:44
officially because you said something like normal show, all the episodes would have to be connected. Not true. Most television the episode, it's the same fucking characters, but the episodes are not connected. Just Maggie and David, fall in love. Next week. Maggie and David are involved.

Alex Ferrari 17:08
Yeah, but like you were saying like Dallas like soap operas, it was kind of like that kind of overworking thing is what I was talking about. But when you were in the middle of season one, when, you know, did you know that you were pushing in breaking these rules that had been in place for so long? With these characters? Did you? Did you consciously understand that you were really just, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I want. And, and I'm just gonna go for it.

David Chase 17:31
Yes, I did.

Alex Ferrari 17:34
That's exactly. So you're literally just like, I know what I'm doing. And I'm just going to push the envelope to see how far I could push it before someone stops me.

David Chase 17:43
That's true. Except for I did not say I know what I'm doing. Usually what I said was, okay, put your money where your mouth is. And it's all a big experiment. And that's what life is like. So

Alex Ferrari 17:59
you just went in? Yeah. You just wrote this kind of like, Okay, let's go. Let's see what happens.

David Chase 18:04
Yeah, I had been in the TV business a long time. And I was so fed up. And I hadn't gotten. I hadn't gotten my dream come true, which was to make movies. And I've been in TV a long time, I was thoroughly fed up and disgusted with network television. And I was 54 years old. And I thought, you know what? If it doesn't work, doesn't work. You'll have to come back and try something else, if they'll let you back in.

Alex Ferrari 18:40
So this was your swing at the play is what you said this was basically a similar play.

David Chase 18:44
That was it. That was my swing at the plate. And and I'm trying to keep the baseball analogy alive. But

Alex Ferrari 18:54
it's either well is either I mean, if when you take big swings like that, which I'm so glad you did. But when you take big swings like that you could easily strike out and then kicked out and get kicked out of the ballpark, which could have very easily happened with the show. Or you hit a Grand Slam, which is

David Chase 19:10
right. Yeah, right. And whichever happens more often a Grand Slam or getting escorted out three to nothing.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
Or getting escorted out of the game, period and make sure that when he can't play anymore anyway. Now, I'd love to hear your opinion is what is the job of a writer in network television today? What should they be? What should their goal be?

David Chase 19:41
What is the job of a writer and network television to the

Alex Ferrari 19:45
story wise, story wise or what you know, just in the end the craft of it not as much the actual technical job at the the craft of it. What should they be striving for?

David Chase 19:56
Well, I mean the way you phrase it If it's a job, that means you've been hired to do the job. Yeah. You have to give them some with what they want. That's why you're there. No, that's not why you're? No, yes, it is. I mean, you're there because they saw something which they think could be beneficial to them. So you need, you need to be aware of that. But you have to express yourself, that's your your, they wouldn't want you to, they wouldn't want to say this. Your job, if they're paying you for it, is to express yourself the best way you can, as completely and thoroughly that honestly,

Alex Ferrari 20:59
in the entire run of the series. Was there an episode that you said, I think I might have gone too far? No, not one.

David Chase 21:08
You just know, we're somewhere I said. I don't I don't like this as much as other ones. The Italian of the trip to Italy. probably could have done with that. But no, I never thought we would go too far. Never.

Alex Ferrari 21:25
And I also and I know I mean, one of the more controversial parts of the entire series was the ending. I personally loved the ending because of what the ambiguity of it and that he I know everybody wanted to see Tony's face in a bowl of Marin era, but many didn't. Many did. Many did. But you see, that's the thing. It's so it's like you're either on one camp or the other. But I just love that you left it open to the interpretation of the viewer. And I love the song that you chose is at the end, which was a nice nod.

David Chase 22:03
Well, you know, Steven Van Zandt, please Silvio, and, you know, was guitarist in any street van was in Florida when the last show aired. And he had booked an appearance the next morning on a talk show, radio talk show. And he All he did was defend and fend off all this criticism, people cursing at him. That's horrible. You know, motherfucker, this and we got robbed and all that stuff. And finally, he said, All right, well, what's your ending? Did you want to tell you to be killed? Oh, no, but you want to be here? Oh, what? Did you want to get away with it all? Oh, but I mean, well, what's your what's your great ending? Let me hear it. And most of them just, you know, some of them went away saying I see what you're saying. Now. I'm sure what they're really thinking was I'm not a professional writer. Don't ask me what I would have done. David. Jason had done what he was supposed to do. But nobody knew what that was.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
And honestly, as much as it's kind of, you know, divisive. You're absolutely right. Like, did you want to get away with it? Did you want him to die? Did you like there's no way to make everyone happy? There's just no way?

David Chase 23:29
No? Well, not many people have made everyone happy. You've seen the Wizard of Oz?

Alex Ferrari 23:36
No. But with the with the show with show endings in general are very difficult to pull off. I mean, did you when you were going into that last episode? What would I mean? I mean, I can only imagine the pressure that you were under, just because of the fans and everybody and it was the biggest show on HBO when all this stuff like how do you feel as a creator when you're ending something that you created?

David Chase 23:59
Well, the show was so popular. And it was such a you know, at that period of time, you'd read a news. People would always in newspaper Ruby's editorial, that's what Tony Soprano would have done. Or that guy behaves just like one of the sopranos. You kept hearing that all over the place. Sopranos Sopranos, Sopranos, it was that it was a phenomenon really not just a TV show. And I guess, like gave me a lot of balls.

Alex Ferrari 24:36
That's so big because of the success. It gave you the the wind underneath those wings.

David Chase 24:41
And most likely, had it not been a big success. It would have probably been more angering to a lot of people who knows what I would have done out of anger and disappointment. Just Kneel ism?

Alex Ferrari 25:01
Did When did you realize that? Or did you ever realize while you were making the show that it's kind of changed the game a bit, because after obviously years after all these other great shows with anti heroes like Breaking Bad and Mad Men and Dexter, which were some of the writers worked with you on your show? At what point did you kind of realize like, I think I might have changed the target directory of television? I mean, that's a fairly large statement to say. And maybe you don't want to say it. But many people have said it. Did you ever realize, like, maybe I've given other creators, I've opened the door for other creators to explore these kinds of characters.

David Chase 25:41
Well, that's a hard one. I guess I did feel that way. Good. This, other people can now do more interesting stuff. But what I also saw was like a lot of like, copying Sopranos I don't mean, like plagiarism, but just not doing something really, like the sopranos was way off the mark for network television. And I was hoping I guess that people would start to do things that were way off the mark. But they didn't really, you know, I was good shows. But I did feel that I felt glad that something had cracks and couldn't be replaced. I did, I did feel that way. But I remember saying at the time in print, which is also true, I don't take responsibility for any of those shows. But I don't take any blame either.

Alex Ferrari 26:44
That's a great, it's a great way of looking at it. Now, what made you want to go back to the world of the sopranos with the many saints of Newark? How did you Why did you? How did that come to be,

David Chase 26:57
you know, in 2012, coming off as, as front as over in 2007. And my dream was coming true, I was hot, and I was gonna be able to do a movie, or two. And I could do anything I wanted to do. I remember my agent telling me that back in 2004, you're a brand now you can do it, whatever you want to do, you'll be able to do. So we've reached the end of the sopranos, what I wanted to, and I wanted to do the story, semi kind of autobiographical about a rock'n'roll band in New Jersey that never makes it. And I wanted to do that. And I thought people would like it. And I got a chance to do it. Because Brad gray, who had been an executive producer with me on the show on Sopranos was now head of Paramount Studios. And he gave me the money to do that movie. I don't think any other studio would have done that. I don't think that movie was going to get made. And move No, but nobody went to see it. Nobody saw it. I mean, a few people did. And some people thought it was very good and liked it, but it was basically ignored. And there's a reason for it. Really, if you want to tell me the movie was shit, I wouldn't argue with you. But I also know that the movie had no support, or no marketing support, no advertising, because the guy was really in charge of that hated it. Anyway. So from that I did a couple of other projects. I wrote a couple of other things. One for HBO, which fell apart because of money budget. And then another another feature that Paramount bought, but they would only make it was an A list actress. And we got some actresses that were interested in doing it. But they weren't big enough. They couldn't open the movie, right? So I wasn't really doing anything. And then there was some illnesses in my family. And they had a warner brothers had been after me for 14 years, having coffee and talking to make a Sopranos movie. And he right around that he hit me again. And I thought you know, my friend, Larry Connor said, Yeah, you should do this. We should. You should work. Let's get back. And as well, this will get made you back.

Alex Ferrari 29:39
And that's it. And that's how it came back to me. And with the with the release of the film, how? Oh, hopefully it's going to be it's going to be released. I think, as of this recording, a Friday, Friday, Friday. What do you hope to happen? How do you hope the fans Receive the film.

David Chase 30:04
They love it. They love it. We had a premiere in New York. I've never been through anything like that in my life. The amount the amount of joy, excitement, laughter, suspense, it went over like, gang, like gangbusters. That's amazing. Unbelievable. I can't even express it. 2000 people in the Beacon Theater? Will we ever have another audience like that? No.

Alex Ferrari 30:39
That's amazing. Now, with all the success you've had over your career, what advice would you give a writer starting out in the business today?

David Chase 30:57
Well, you have to write. You can't talk about writing. You can't plan out stories that you don't write. You have to write as much as you can. And there is no simple no single way to quote unquote, make it just any opportunity that comes along. That brings you closer to the business say yes. Even if it's not what you're interested in doing. Just say yes. You will learn something from it, and you'll be one millimeter closer. I even use that phrase to business, you'll be even closer to a lot of people okay to business. You'll be one millimeter closer to your dream of being an artist. I mean, obviously, if you have to clean toilets, you're gonna say no, but Well, I don't know about that.

Alex Ferrari 32:02
Well, I mean, if you're cleaning toilets in the mailroom, it's like the mailroom is a perfect example like that.

David Chase 32:08
Yeah, say yes. Because you won't be cleaning toilets for long you're gonna be promoted in the mailroom. And then from the mailroom you go on, but you know, that's really attract to being an agent or a producer. Sure, of course. Oh, mailroom sorry. Yeah, what?

Alex Ferrari 32:34
The game has changed so much the game has changed so much over the years,

David Chase 32:37
the game changed so much. And well, we will go into that. I wish I could say something that

Alex Ferrari 32:52
Well, let me ask you this

David Chase 32:54
bold, but I guess it just be bold, on the page, and in the road, or on the street.

Alex Ferrari 33:05
Great advice. Not when you're about to sit down to write something like when you set when you sat down to write the the many saints in New York? And how do you be? How do you do outline? What is your process? When you're writing? Do you outline? Do you start with characters when you're starting a new new project? Or are you starting with plot? How do you approach the craft?

David Chase 33:28
I've done it both ways where we outline outline the whole movie or TV, well, each one of Sopranos episodes was complete outline, that you will see the outlines, you would say, this is really like naked, there's hardly anything here. That's true. It was just the scenes in order. It was the writers job to bring that to life. I've done it that way. And I've done it where you just start writing. And I think probably most of the great writers just start writing.

Alex Ferrari 34:04
Because they've already have a lot of the stuff that you have to work on in regards to structure and, and subplots. It's what it's

David Chase 34:13
about is they, they don't really know what they've got. But you only find out what you're doing. from writing.

Alex Ferrari 34:24
From just going down the path, you only find

David Chase 34:26
out Well, really into reality, you really only find out what your movie is, or your TV show is after you've edited it. Because all those pieces that make up the show can be rearranged to it the only difference where the emphasis is completely changed. And what you thought it was about isn't what it was about. Because two actors who sparked off each other. We're not around when you wrote it. But now you see all of that relation. That's when you Yeah, and I know, that's what's so great about it. They call it a plastic medium. And that's what it is. But they can be moved on.

Alex Ferrari 35:09
Yeah. And it's like, As the old saying goes, you write you, you write the story three times, once you write it, once you shoot it, once you edit it, each one is a different, different version, or draft of the story.

David Chase 35:22
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Yes. All right. When you

Alex Ferrari 35:27
write, do the characters talk to you? Do they? Do they talk and you dictate? Or do you like, because I've heard that so many times from writers where they're like, I've just said, I'm just a dictator, I just do this. But is that the way it works for you? Or do you creating the dialogue for them? Feeling it?

David Chase 35:45
I've had it happen a couple of times, where there was this transcendent experience, where I felt that some power was working through me. But that doesn't happen all the time at all. But do it to the characters speak to me, like say, hey, David, do this and David do that? I don't

Alex Ferrari 36:08
know. Like the dialogue like, you know, two people sitting in a room and you're just like, you're sitting in a room,

David Chase 36:13
I pictured it. I picture a conversation we do. And Tony and Carmela and I

Alex Ferrari 36:25
just talk,

David Chase 36:27
say,

Alex Ferrari 36:28
you touched on something there real quick, when you said you had a transcendent moment. And I mean, I've had it and so many other writers and creators have it it's almost the zone, or when you feel like something is you're channeling something. You're like, when you're writing, and you're like, Who wrote this? This is this, this, I don't know who wrote this, and let's just spurts out of you, without you actually thinking. It's worthwhile. It's in those moments when you can, when you can, when you can literally, I don't know, tap into tap into that thing that brings in the creativity, where it's just flowing through you. And you're just a conduit.

David Chase 37:06
I think it's the closest we come to being a musician.

Alex Ferrari 37:11
Yeah, that's right.

David Chase 37:14
Yeah. And being a musician. I mean, I have always wanted to be one and I have great. What do you call? Jealousy, especially to be one of four musicians and you are playing together? One going off the other and it's coming out of your head. There's no pre that those moments when you're writing are the closest we come to that?

Alex Ferrari 37:41
Yeah, like I can only imagine Lennon and McCartney. I've seen some of those, those sessions when they were just like writing stuff. And just like, like, all of a sudden, hey, Jude just showed up.

David Chase 37:50
Like, right? No, I mean, I mean, those sessions where you're writing big, um, something's working through me or when you're finished, you go, woof. I was always coming through. I mean, a musician playing. It's the most like playing music. Got it. But like you're it's all you're you're feeling all of it. You're not thinking it.

Alex Ferrari 38:17
Now, is there anything you've learned from your biggest mistake? Or biggest failure in your career? Something that a lesson that you learned from one of those?

David Chase 38:49
Don't take the money?

Alex Ferrari 38:52
It's a great. Don't, don't do it for the money. Don't do it for the money. Alright, and working? And where can people watch the new movie?

David Chase 39:06
Their movie theaters, movie theaters? That's it's also going to be on I shouldn't even say it's also going to be on HBO max on the same day, October 1. Okay. As it opens, the mutated it's going to be on on TV. I'm disgusted by that. But

Alex Ferrari 39:24
I would say everybody goes see that in the theaters without question.

David Chase 39:27
It's really good. And you didn't do that.

Alex Ferrari 39:30
I couldn't good. I couldn't. But But David, thank you so much for your time. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thank you for all the work you've done. And everything you've done for television and for storytelling in general. So thank you, my friend.

David Chase 39:45
Thank you. And those are good questions.

Alex Ferrari 39:47
Thank you, my friend.

David Chase 39:48
Okay. Bye bye.

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BPS 141: Selling Palm Springs for $17.5 Million at Sundance with Max Barbakow

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I believe that most indie filmmakers have a dream of making a feature film, getting accepted to the Sundance Film Festival, and that film would be fought over in a massive bidding war that generates millions of dollars for the filmmakers. I’ve called this dream the lottery ticket mentally. I always say that someone wins the lottery every week somewhere.

Well, today’s guest is that lottery ticket winner. Today on the show we have director Max Barbakow, the filmmaker behind the largest sale at Sundance in history. His film Palm Springs sold for a record-breaking $17.5 million and .69¢. Those last cents are what broke the record.

The film stars Andy Samberg, Cristin Milioti, and J.K. Simmons and was acquired by NEON and Hulu at the festival.

When carefree Nyles and reluctant maid of honor Sarah have a chance encounter at a Palm Springs wedding, things get complicated when they find themselves unable to escape the venue, themselves, or each other.

I’ve always wanted to know what it was like to be a fly on the wall during a bidding war at Sundance. In today’s episode, I take you through the improbable journey of this first-time feature filmmaker and his adventures of getting his film Palms Springs from the page to the Sundance record books.

You can watch Palm Springs on Hulu.

Enjoy my conversation with Max Barbakow.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:02
Well guys, we are in the Sundance Film Festival season. It is just finished up but I wanted to take you on a journey I wanted to take you on the dream path that all independent filmmakers dream of making your first movie, getting accepted to Sundance and selling it for a record breaking $17.5 million. Well, that's exactly what our guest did. Today's guest is filmmaker max Barba CO, who is the filmmaker behind Palm Springs, which holds the record for the largest purchase price of any independent film ever at the Sundance Film Festival. And it holds that record by 69 cents. That's right, they paid him 17 point $5,000,000.69 there's a whole story behind that I promise you now in this episode Max and I talk about his rise on how he got the bill made how he was able to get Andy Samberg attached and JK Simmons, how they got into Sundance and I've never been in the room when there's been a bidding war at Sundance for a film. But in today's episode you're going to be a fly on the wall on what it's like to be in that bidding war in the middle to three o'clock in the morning in a hotel room somewhere at Sundance while the lawyers and the agents are all battling it out. And you know Max was literally there just front row seat just going oh my god oh my god. Oh my god and we are going to go through that journey. I hope this episode is inspiring to you because it inspired me so without any further ado please enjoy my conversation with Max barber co I'd like to welcome the show max barber co How you doing Max?

Max Barbakow 4:24
Good man. How are you? Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 4:27
There thank you for being on the show man. I've always said I told my wife this and it didn't happen when I was going to one of my wife was pregnant I said if we have boys my boys gonna be named Max Ferrari which would be dope man. That would be an amazing they I actually wanted to go Maximus max for sure. I mean, let's just go straight up. Let's do this if we're gonna go and she's like, I'm so glad we didn't have any boys because that would have been an argument.

Max Barbakow 4:54
The girl My mom wanted to name my brother max. My brother's seven years older than me and my dad. It was like, no veto Max is a name for an old dude who smoked cigars. My mom was like, Alright, whatever. And then I come along, and I guess he changed his tune. Initially, I'll take it though

Alex Ferrari 5:13
I have absolutely bad. So, um, before we get started, man, how did you get get started in the business.

Max Barbakow 5:19
Um, just I mean, it kind of happened with Palm Springs, but I grew up in a family that really like valued movies. So it was always kind of something that I was allowed to dream about doing, which is cool. And a lot of people it's like a very foreign thing. And I grew up in Santa Barbara, California, just up the coast. So la was kind of like, right nearby too. And it demystified the whole exercise of making stuff. And I just always knew I wanted to be a filmmaker. So like, started documentary filmmaking, which seemed like a little more attainable, just because you could go out and shoot and then figure out what the story was kind of like as you were doing it, you know, there's like a low, gray, less involved, less of a blank page just to stare out, let's say, started doing that was doing freelance documentary stuff, I made a documentary about my adoption. That was a that was a feature length film that was kind of the first real thing I ever made coming

Alex Ferrari 6:14
out of college, which is Mommy, Mommy, I'm a bastard.

Max Barbakow 6:17
Mommy. Which, by the way,

Alex Ferrari 6:18
that's a great story. I saw this, I saw that clip on your website. On the website, it was so hilarious when your mom was telling the story, like, hey, my mama bastard. But that must have been me as a filmmaker, that must have been cathartic, just to kind of go through that whole process.

Max Barbakow 6:35
Totally. I mean, just to start something, it was the first thing I started finished

Alex Ferrari 6:40
to, you know, like, that's, that's a big, cathartic, that's a big thing for a filmmaker, and a feature no less.

Max Barbakow 6:46
Exactly. And then to pour yourself into it in a very intense way, and kind of do a lot of personal inventory in the excavation and kind of feel like I had become someone else, by the end of it, you know, and kind of like evolved was a super cool feeling. And I think I kind of got addicted to that, which is why Palm Springs is a little bit of the same way. It was a very personal movie, and a very intense kind of personal process with my buddy and DCR, who wrote the movie. And it's, it's, I love doing it, because that's I think I liked when I realized what making movies really was, I always like that to the idea that you would kind of chart your life through projects and kind of always go back to a moment and look at a project that you'd made or something and think about where you were, as you were making it. So it was always I don't know, I didn't I didn't know what I was doing. I was making a new bastard, which I also always trying to get back to, to that feeling of just like be like kind of learning a new language every time you're making something, and kind of just jumping off jumping into the deep end. But it really was just a great exercise in every facet of the process. Like I cut that movie myself, shot that movie myself. I kind of like, produced it myself. My brother did the music. But I got my feet wet. And I was able to get a job. I took that movie to a film festival and met a couple of producers that had done Silver Linings Playbook it was the year that that was out and I got a job is one of them had a kid that was adopted and kind of connected over the film. And I bothered the other one for a long time trying to get a job on David O Russell's next movie, which at that time was American Hustle and I got a job doing locations on that movie out Afton which was an incredible thing. It was kind of like I knew I wanted to go into narrative. It was a dream but that was kind of the bridge to go do narrative like the next year I went to film school at ASI. I kind of got into film school at the same time. And I was like well just watch that guy make a movie just made my my own movie. Now I could like kind of really feel like I kind of earned or like you had the necessary experience to go into like directing on a set, you know, working with partment heads and stuff like that. And then if I was great and and that was kind of like I met mbcr there who was a good buddy and a great collaborator and made a lot of stuff together. there with him and out of school decided we wanted to do a feature together, went out to Palm Springs to brainstorm came back with the idea of Niles and they kind of was in very unruly creative process from there like I know you said you like Groundhog Day, but it did not start as a time loop idea. Initially, we were very much arrived at that little into the process. But that's that's kind of how I got into making stuff.

Alex Ferrari 9:37
So okay, so you did a bunch of shorts with Andy as well. Um, yeah. And so I have to ask, because, you know, you're you're you basically lived out the dream of most filmmakers around the world. Where as in you make a movie. It's Yeah, there. You make a movie you you kind of live it You're living the dream that every filmmaker dreams of, which is essentially Hey, I'm gonna go write my movie with my buddy. And, and we're gonna go attach, you know an Oscar winner and really famous comedian and some other really amazing talent and, and then we're gonna shoot it and then we're gonna go to Sunday we're gonna get good assented to Sundance, get accepted to Sundance. And then we happen to go there and sell it and make it the biggest sale by 69 cents ever. at Sundance, I mean, you're essentially living the dream. So before we get to all of that amazing part of the story, how did you go from making shorts, to go into Palm Springs to figure out an idea for a script? Which, by the way, everyone listening right here is everyone's got an idea. Everyone's writing a script. Yeah. How did you get that package? How did you get Andy and JK involved in the project? Like, how did you get this whole thing up off the ground?

Max Barbakow 10:56
Um, well, the, the idea of going to make a feature, after a lot of shorts, and film school is just kind of an idea of desperation, kind of, you know, like we didn't, we didn't want to wait around and be and wait for an opportunity. And we had been given the opportunity to make a lot of stuff already. And we didn't want that to go away. So it's like, we got to make something we got to make something also, as I have been drilled so much in film school that I felt like I lost my instincts a little bit. So like the the mission with the movie was never to go attach big actors like that, or even make it on the scale that we made it out. It was like, let's go make something weird that feels like us, and could you know, around one location in a way that would help us rediscover our instincts a little bit. And it evolved from that place into something, you know, after, it wasn't even a wedding movie to begin with. It was it was like a I think it took place on New Year's and it was an existential comedy. We like to say it was like an absurd version of Leaving Las Vegas, like the dark comedy version of that movie, like a hipster goes to that Las Vegas to die, and then learns the meaning of life and decides to live. But it just evolved, it was kind of leaning into the process that we had kind of figured out for ourselves, Andy and I, which was locking ourselves in a room and trying to make each other laugh and try to make each other kind of acting as each other as each other as each other's therapists a little bit. And that's how a lot of those philosophical conversations about life and relationships. I mean, the movie was born out of a very busy wedding season where stuff started to feel the same. And I was like, hopeless, hopelessly single. And Andy had just gotten married in Palm Springs, and was kind of looking down the barrel at his life really stoked, but wondering if he was ever going to be as happy as he was on his wedding night, you know, and kind of those things were ingredients in this kind of this alchemic exercise, and it just got to a place where, you know, putting to commitment phobes stuck at the same wedding together felt like a really fertile premise for a movie, putting characters in their own version of hell. And we just follow the idea and worked really hard at it. And by the time the script was good, it it obviously gotten way bigger than a little movie, you could just go shoot in the desert, you know, there was like a time portal and dinosaurs and shed. So we you know, it just Andy's car siara got a manager who kind of knew what to do with it, he kind of became the third collaborator on the film and sent it around towns and around LA and it just got it got good reads. And it got passed up through UTA where Sandberg is represented and Sandberg Reddit was like, Okay, I'll meet these guys. And we went in to go meet with them and had a conversation and I kind of pitched the vision for the movie. And we got super lucky and that he was seeing the same movie that we were seeing, which was like, you know, comedy, yes, but something a little more driven by pathos, especially for him. There's, you know, it's a different term for him. And when we had the opportunity to meet with him in the lonely island as like potential producers, and then you know, him to star it was it kind of clicked. It's like, Oh, yeah, this could be our version of Eternal Sunshine, or punch drunk love a little more hard to comedy, but like, a generational talent and a goofball in terms of comedian doing a different turn something a little a little edgier for him, and it all kind of it all kind of clicked into like, Oh, this could be something pretty cool. And when he said, you know, that he wanted to do it and that they would produce and he would star and that I you know, was still gonna get to direct it to that level. It was an incredible thing.

Alex Ferrari 14:32
Yeah, that's so that's one thing I want to ask because I've sat in those meetings I've been in I've been in those meetings with with actors and things and getting you to be the first first time director and them giving you the reins. And I don't know what I don't know if you've even mentioned what the budget is. Can you say what

Max Barbakow 14:50
it was like under five or six credit but it was like at the time there was like four or something like that.

Alex Ferrari 14:56
So too, you know, and that's a fairly Large first film.

Max Barbakow 15:01
Oh, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 15:02
yeah, with basically your only narrative being a handful of shorts, and you and you and your documentary that you had done, you know, samples

Max Barbakow 15:09
for it, you know, that weren't similar in any way to the idea. So it's not like you're here's the short that could be the feature.

Alex Ferrari 15:15
Right, exactly. So that way. So it was basically you had a champion and Andy Sandberg, he was he basically said, I see your vision, you're gonna direct it, let's make it happen.

Max Barbakow 15:26
Yeah. And it was, it was, it was beautiful, because I don't if we had an Indy car and I hadn't gone in together, I don't think it might have played out in a different way. I think they recognize because they're buddies, like the Lonely Island came up together. And their friends, I think they saw us as buds wanting to make this thing. They saw how they could help us make it even better. And they're like, that's cool. Like, well, we'll do it. You know, I'm so lucky. They were into that. So we spent the summer after we first met them kind of doing a polish on the script together in that room that Andy and I had been in exercising our romantic demons make each other laugh, it just kind of got bigger with those guys. And Becky servitor, who was our other producer ran their company. And it was it was it was amazing. You know, it was it was unreal. That's no,

Alex Ferrari 16:14
it is very dreamlike. I mean, as a director as you're walking through this path, I mean, you've heard that any every filmmaker has heard these stories has heard you know, I always use El Mariachi or you know, yes. You know, you use it the Kevin Kevin Smith, or, you know, these kind of stories that you hear of this happening, but you're like, but when you're in it, like how does that feel? Like you're like, did you have a feel? Because I know I did. I like I came, I've come close to many damn times to even count. But at some point, do you just go this is gonna fall apart at any effing second? They're gonna fire me any second now.

Max Barbakow 16:54
That's it? That's it. It's totally it. It's like, not really, you know, but what you can focus on is like, is the work you know, I think it would have been totally different if, if, again, we weren't seeing the same version of the movie, you know? But like, we got we got so lucky in that way. They really did. And it was it's not a normal, lonely island movie, either. It's not it's a little nuanced, you know, there's a blended tone. They definitely made it funnier, and helped us like with the comedy and stuff. They helped us with everything. But like, yeah, it's it I you quickly learn to there's no room for that kind of insecurity just because there's so much you so much stuff to do, you know, so much stuff to think about. And especially on an indie movie, too. It's like, you're it's still the same scrappiness that we probably would have made the smaller version with you're just dealing with incredible actors, which is makes life easier. Everything so much better. Yeah. So like, that was a thing when you're dealing with like, it's like anybody like niyati Sandberg JK Simmons on set, they'll do it. We didn't have we shot the movie in 21 days, too, so didn't have any time. And you're like, they'll do a tank, you know, like, that was good. And I have to go like pretend to talk to the grip or something to come up with it. Like a note for them as I'm like, I'll go talk to this guy. Because, you know, it's, it's, we got so lucky in a way. And I was across the board with all the department heads to who had the same twisted sense of humor that we all had, and you know, just really got what was at the core of this thing. So it was an incredible experience. In that respect, which is what I was thinking about being a filmmaker, I always kind of thought about that. It's about having partners in crime, you know, you want to feel like you get away with something.

Alex Ferrari 18:31
Yeah, absolutely. And Andy and I've been a big fan of Andy Samberg for a long time. Back from the SNL days. I mean, I've just followed his career. I've watched Brooklyn nine, nine, I mean, like he's, he's, he's awesome. He's awesome. And he's a very unique voice and the way he does this thing

Max Barbakow 18:47
don't really take years to I didn't really realize it until we were working all together. But those guys were some of the first filmmakers that I looked up to when they were making there because they were just making stuff together and putting it on the internet channel one on one YouTube all that stuff and you're, you know, in high school you're like, Oh, these guys rule you know, like, we should do that. Like the first step I made was like, you know, like rip offs of like, dear sister in the doing stuff. So it was really they they're filmmakers do not not just comedians or performers.

Alex Ferrari 19:19
No, absolutely not. So what point did the story turned into this? Groundhog's Day? esque you know, time loop thing because it please correct me is Groundhog's Day, the first time there was a time loop in a movie in a comedy or is it just the most famous version of it?

Max Barbakow 19:38
I think so. There's like as with anything that's successful, I think there was like controversy when it came out that it was stolen from something like a boardroom or something like that, but I think it's

Alex Ferrari 19:49
probably it's a French film. It's a double leak. It was like dabbling.

Max Barbakow 19:57
But yeah, it evolved. I mean, it Really, we just started thinking about it really came from a place of character because we spent so much time working on like thinking about who these people were. And they're kind of compartmentalised versions of both like mbcr and myself, Sarah and Niles, that came first the foundations and Roy came in like, way, way later. That was like the last thing we put into the draft like a third person, he was here. It was so great. I sent it out. Yeah. When

Alex Ferrari 20:25
I said when that happened, when I watched it, that's a spoiler alert to everybody. But when that happened, when I saw that arrow, just show up. And then when you see it's like, oh, it's JK, oh, yes,

Max Barbakow 20:36
that's perfect. is the best. He's like, no, I we're gonna, you're trying to be on schedule. Right now I need to I will be running through the desert, I will be doing all that stuff myself. Like, this needs to happen, which is awesome. Which is the subject.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
All right, so so is working as a director, especially your first time working on a project of this magnitude? How do you direct an actor like Andy Samberg? Who's basically you know, he's, he does very, very good improv. And he's kind of like, you just kind of kind of like corral the lightning almost, cuz he's like lightning in the bottle all the time. Right?

Max Barbakow 21:15
Yeah. But he was very aware, because we had done work on the script together. And he comes from a writing perspective, too. And he's producer on the movie. So it was like having a real Christian came in, it was the same way. We had less time together like improv, but it was having like creative partners, you know, less than like, it was not like a mystery that you're trying to shroud an actor and they were very aware of like, what this thing was and why it was special. And their chemistry was going to be the engine of the movie. So for Andy, I think he was attracted to it, because it was a completely different term for it, that means playing like an indifferent defeated person. For the first part of the movie, you know, challenge, he was like, always very aware of anything that would be considered to arch, you know, or, or to wild or to goofy. And we were always kind of checking each other. But like he, he had it in, you know, he's done like, he's done turns on that are a little more serious, like in Celeste and Jesse did that movie. And that was one of those where you're like, oh, he has that, like, Is it like I could is a romantic lead for sure. He just had never met never made the decision to do it. So it was honestly just like a lot of communication, you know, and it was like, on this one, I realized every actor because we had a pretty big ensemble, it's like a two hander, you know, at its core, but there are a lot of different actors, and everybody worked in a really different way. So it's just about kind of like having that conversation upfront. How do you like to work? Like, what can I give you as a director, so I like to do things it's like, let's, let's talk about how it can be of help to you. And it with with Andy It was a lot of interest into was always a lot of like, conversations beforehand, like we did some rehearsals, and then just trying different versions of it on the day, you know, because we'd have a lot of time, like I said, so it's like, let's get it right. Just that intangible feeling where it's like this is this is the best version of it. Now let's go way this direction, way this direction, and then we'll do one that is completely out of left field. And then you kind of make choices in the

Alex Ferrari 23:13
Edit. So in you so we're working with someone like JK, who, obviously as an Oscar winner, he's he's amazing. He's an you know, he's played some very intense guys in his films. I'm assuming there was some sort of intimidation, just just meeting him and and having the potential of working with him. How does a first time director direct an Oscar winning actor? Like what is that process? Like? I mean, I had I've had other guests, and I've worked with Oscar nominees as well in my work. And I just go How do you want to be directed like, dude, I'm like, I'm just here. Because there's some people like if you're like, how can you direct Meryl Streep? Like, how, how does that work? So I'm assuming JK similar.

Max Barbakow 24:03
Yeah, I mean, he's intimidating just because of the roles that you associate him with. And he's also just been doing it for so long. And you know, he's, he's such a pro and such a legend. But the thing that I realized is everybody wants to be that that's what they're there for, actually want to collaborate actors want to be directed, you know, like he, he connected to the script and really liked the script. And he had worked with Sandberg before, too. So there was that familiarity they had played father and son and I love you, man. So they were they were friends. So he was there to have a blast and give it a go and like I, you know, you again, it's just communication. It's just something to work on. So like, how can we make this as easy for you as possible? A little movie for you legends, and it's like, I think he appreciated that too. And he, he came with so many ideas. That's the thing. It's like these people are legendary because they're so smart and so and so talented, but it is for them about the work if they're you know, they're not JK Simmons is not resting on his Oscar, you know, like and I'm sure Meryl Streep isn't resting on any of her nomination. She's just trying to do work that can make make her feel alive. Probably.

Alex Ferrari 25:14
Yeah, it's just about how I think you your answers absolutely on point, which is communication, like just seeing because everyone's different like Meryl and Denzel might want to be talked to differently and worked with differently than JK did and just have to have that open and then adjusting your directing style accordingly to them, not them adjusting towards you, because that's not gonna work as much.

Max Barbakow 25:38
Yeah, one thing I realize, like in it, it helps, even when it is everybody knowing what the coverage was, you know, obviously, like, was at the top of the scene and there again, there was no time. So just like, communication is everything. And if you if you could get through a scene, then you then you could have time to give people opportunities to play around, which is always great, because I mean, JK especially just had so many fun ideas. And we were shooting out of borders. And sometimes it was like, ah, who can't. We've already established that side. Like we can't do that. But that is like, that's why you're human.

Alex Ferrari 26:12
Right? And when you work with people of that caliber, you just like God, you make things so easy as a director makes life so much easier than having to pull everything. Now what was your expectation for this film? I mean, obviously has Andy Samberg has all these big, you know, big stars, but it's still in the you know, how, you know, 5 million below indie film and a marketplace that is full of, you know, good content, what was your expectation for this? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Max Barbakow 26:50
I mean, initially, before Sandberg, it was like, let's raise $50,000 or something like that from friends and go make something just get one, get an auction about and that still is what it still was. It's like, let's go, let's ride the creative energy of this and go make it and then when Sandberg comes on board, like in that first conversation, we all agreed the goal was to go to Sundance, you know, and sell the movie, like we weren't trying to go to a studio next It was like, let's go make this on the fly and have a Sundance experience and see what we can what we can do. And that was awesome that that we got in you know, we got, I got the call. And it was I was didn't pick it up because there's like a four It was like a I thought it was spam. And I picked it up. And it was a couple weeks earlier than I thought it would be calling. And it was a sprint to the Sundance deadline in the Edit to you know, that was kind of crazy. And they wanted us and then they wanted us in the US dramatic competition too. Which is like the real that's the, like 12 movies. Yeah, so like, oh, man, they're taking this seriously. So it still was like, let's go, let's have a good time. Like I learned very early on. Even going into that first meeting with the Lonely Island, it's like don't have any expectations. Just like enjoy it. Enjoy the ride. If you have any expectations there, it's going to be way different than you think it's going to be. So like we knew we had made something that we liked, we had no idea what to expect. We thought we had a good chance of selling it, but obviously not at the level that we did. And like a lot of people kept telling us when we're in the Edit, show to friends and stuff. And it would be Yeah, it does really feel like a like a Sundance movie demands like that's good sucks.

Alex Ferrari 28:26
Like, thanks for the next night. Thanks.

Max Barbakow 28:28
I think it helped us in ultimately in this in the sale and in the reception that it was there. You know, we were in a year there were a couple comedies but not really, you know, I think people it was kind of a cathartic release for people in that festival experience to go see something that was like, kind of full of joy and irreverence and a little different and, and kind of a kind of an escape from what normally is a lineup filled with like, amazingly poignant films that are really intense, heavy, heavy and darker. Yeah, heavy. So that helps but like, you know, I sat in the back and our screen and Park City or premiere and I had no idea how it really played. I know we got a laugh right at the beginning because it opens with a lonely island classics card and it was a roomful of acquisitions, people. So like that got a laugh. Okay, we got one out of the way. But, you know, I had no clue until we went to our after party and like offers started rolling in and then revealed like the response on Twitter was cool. So it was just, it was a blur, man, it was, it was truly insane.

Alex Ferrari 29:26
It was the first time you've ever been to Sundance.

Max Barbakow 29:29
Yeah, I never I never having a movie and so is cool. And it's what was that? Like? Everything? It's like the last film festival Film Festival for the foreseeable future.

Alex Ferrari 29:44
Exactly. So what was it like? I mean, because I've been to Sundance Scott's like, seven eight times in my life. And never had the pleasure. I've always been rejected. She's like that. Be the hot girl that always kind of teases you like maybe maybe we'll go on a date and Maybe in your mind, we're gonna go out on a date. But you just you ran up in first first one out. You got that day mean, even when you're there and you're gonna leave like is this? Isn't it the same feelings? Like at any moment someone's gonna come in the door and go, you don't belong here. Yeah. That's amazing. So you go to Sundance, you get, you know, you have this amazing, these amazing screenings, you're getting good stuff and then the offers are starting to come in from studios.

Max Barbakow 30:34
Yeah, from from, from like platforms and distributors and stuff. You know, it was at our premiere party it was, we were drinking really for the first time that weekend, like celebrating and then go to dinner. And it's the thing where they're like, Alright, stop, like sober up, like, we're gonna have gonna have some meetings tonight. And it became the experience that you read about and like, Oh, you know, all the books about and so on. I fit in one thing where we went back to a condo, and people just different companies came in, and were pitching us their vision for the film. And it was just so surreal to hear. Like, I always I love in prep, you know, like, we got meetings or you know, just page turn meetings and going through the shit that you're trying to pull off in a movie and everybody taking stupid stuff like blowing up a goat. So seriously, like talking about it. Like, it's great. Like, it's funny to me on that level, when you haven't really thought about pulling stuff off. And now you're dealing with acquisitions, people, like pitching their passion for a movie based on the same stuff, you're talking about, like, loads of money, you're just sitting there like, what is this is crazy, but it what it meant was that more people were gonna have a chance to see our movie, which was so cool, you know, that I kind of had contextualize the entire Sundance experience to it's like, well, the all this means is like, it's no longer ours really, like we've lived with this for so long. And like, we're going to this festival, people are gonna see it. And then like, people are either gonna hate us or they're gonna, you know, they'll be okay with it. But like, it's not going to be our little thing anymore. And, and when there was a response from from buyers, it was their offers and stuff. It was incredible because it just went oh, my God, like more more people beyond this festival are gonna see the movie, you know, are gonna bring it. Were you involved in

Alex Ferrari 32:17
that process? A lot. Because you producer as well on the project,

Max Barbakow 32:21
not not a producer, but they were super cool. And we were all you know, we were up all night and all in the same meetings and stuff like that. And

Alex Ferrari 32:27
so you saw you saw first that you were front row on all this stuff?

Max Barbakow 32:29
Yeah, yeah. No, I just didn't I just like this is great. Yeah. How much? Like how much

Alex Ferrari 32:33
do they like? I'm sure the first offer that came in, you're like, yes, take it. Yes. No. 5 million. 5 million. Yes. Take five. Yes. breakeven. It's fine. Let's just go Let's go.

Max Barbakow 32:47
I never I never understood I was all I was thinking while we were going through and I'm like, can't read this all go party and do this tomorrow, or go to bed and do this to really get down understand. And then it's like, oh, yeah, you do it all night. So they can't say like sleep on it and change their mind. That's why you go a night like that. That makes

Alex Ferrari 33:03
sense. That makes us exactly if you go to sleep tomorrow morning. This will not be here. No, yeah, that's how that's basically because if they wake up in the morning, you know, that wasn't that good. I can't, I can't. Is that high? It's that high of the Sundance screening. Was that too? How did you handle the altitude By the way, that must have been rough.

Max Barbakow 33:24
I was like, I honestly was just all adrenaline like, yeah, after I stayed the whole time, too, because I had never been so I wanted to see movies, and I wanted to meet other filmmakers and stuff and other like everybody else in the world kind of left on which it became this other experience, which I loved. Like I just was kind of like a film fan. They're seeing seen other stuff, but I I crashed after that, man. I like like, I like the adrenaline when and I was like, I I heard all over. Like,

Alex Ferrari 33:53
I'm not 20 anymore.

Max Barbakow 33:55
Yeah, I've been taking care of myself. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 34:00
Sundance, he has time. Isn't that does that to you? Yeah, that I've gotten sick almost every time almost every like last few times. I've figured out how not to get sick but you always altitude weather change. No sleep around a lot of people. It's I'm really curious to see what's going to happen this year with Sundance now because it's COVID and I can't force me they can't have a you know, there has to be a virtual version of it. But they can't be Park City is not there. Like you can't go to parks.

Max Barbakow 34:32
Yeah, though, and it's it's way different. I mean, I'm just so grateful that we had the Sunday live you could have played south by or Tribeca which would have been awesome. But that would have been a completely different experience. You know? So there's so many it's such a crazy year and there's so many great films that are you know, are getting lost. Change. Yeah, they got lost in there.

Alex Ferrari 34:54
Now what how did you guys come up with the whole 17.5 and 69 cents like how did that how does That happened.

Max Barbakow 35:01
That was a that was a key that one of our producer, like, just came up with that I think we're getting they're going back and forth. And 17.5 is the record. And rarely will ever gonna tie the record when they add like a little 69. And I just love that so much. It's like my favorite. It's my favorite thing because it also just holds a mirror up to the absurdity. And like, that was Akiva like, at 4am. Like she's Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 35:32
And now the thing is, to me, the amount of press that you guys got off of this off the sale was massive, I read somewhere that Hulu got like $50 million worth of press, just because they bought it for 17.5 and 16. And that 69 says, probably got it about another million or two of President would have gotten like that. But that must have been like, and I'm assuming everybody was bidding on it. But by the way, how did the neon get involved prior to the sale to Hulu or that together? They came in they

Max Barbakow 36:06
came in together it was partnership. And under looking at it, yeah. Which to me to begin with was like, pretty cool, because that just feels of this time, you know, it's like everyone, everything is gonna live on a streamer, you know that. But if you could have and you're gonna have a great theatrical release. And we did do drive ins with neon. And it's out film nation is now taking it out, like around the world, like it's playing in Italy in theaters, and it's in Russia and Taiwan and Taiwan and stuff, which is really cool. But like that to me, I was like, Oh, that's cool. That's a cool partnership like that feels like what how most movies should enter the world. Now. It's like you figure out where it's gonna live on a streamer. But then like team with a really cool taste making company to give it a little bit of a cultural moment, right and create a ripple so that that was always exciting to us. And they were great when the pandemic hit to just kind of like calling an audible and figuring out a way to still make it special. Despite the crazy circumstances, but then we did together and they they were great. They were when did it get released? What

Alex Ferrari 37:07
was the time like, what month July

Max Barbakow 37:08
time? so rough? It was rough, like in the neck you like so long? I was like, I don't even know. But it was definitely like, it was definitely the beginning just felt like one big snow day or something. You know, you're like, this is like, you know, like this is gonna be wacky and a little bizarre and maybe a little fun for a while. And July was definitely the point where like, God,

Alex Ferrari 37:36
everyone, just everyone just strapped in because the garden that I just started just started giving me tomatoes. And I learned how to make a mean sourdough like it's exactly, exactly. Now I have to ask you about how you know. So you have, you know, again, you you've got, you've lived the dream you've lived, I talked about the lottery ticket mentality, like so many filmmakers, what you said was basically their entire distribution plan is we're gonna make our $50,000 movie with no stars attached. And we're and our distribution model is to go to Sundance to get basically what you got. But the scenario, the timing, the cast the story, everything kind of it was a perfect storm, which is what a lottery ticket. You know, like I've said, and many I think even Robert and Kevin said this, like, El Mariachi shows up today, no one cares. You know, clerk shows up today, it's that no one's gonna see it. It's not gonna get you know, we don't see these directors. We don't those voices get squashed. Or it's not what we know it as today. So everyone's always looking at this lottery ticket. You know, at Sundance, Sundance is the lottery ticket. You won that lottery ticket. So I want to find out. What is it like winning the lottery ticket in regards to your career in regards to how the town treats you now? Because you're the belle of the ball, man, you won Sundance the biggest movie, and then you just didn't win Sundance, you sold the biggest movie ever at Sundance. So I'm assuming that comes with some sort of dancing, some sort of courting from people around. So how did the town treat you? And what was that experience? Like?

Max Barbakow 39:13
A lot of meetings, you know, you get to meet a lot of people, you get to just see you get kind of a fuller concept of what the, because you learned a lot putting the movie together too, right? We were trying to going out to try to find financing after the Lonely Island came on and we got to know kind of what the landscape was through the agencies and all that, but um, yeah, just get into to meet a lot of people. Getting to see what projects exist getting to kind of flirt and dabble and like think about projects and then realize, Oh, yeah, you always want to be self generating, like, like, anyway, you know, like, it's, I just, I'm stoked that I'm gonna get to work again. You know, that was the other thing at Sundance, when it went well. I'm like, Oh, yeah, we're gonna get someone someone's gonna pay. My mom is Like, employment, you know, it's like there's still a lot of speculative conversations, which are, it's always hard to sort out like, what's what's real or not. But that's just kind of, that's part of it. And I and I do say, I will say, like, I think the healthiest thing happened, which is that all this happened, and I've been at home, you know, like, there wasn't it, I think it would have been a little different if we were able to go places or go do a press tour, and it just like, it doesn't quite feel real still, it feels nice. It does feel real is having like certain work to do and projects to, like, get off the ground and stuff. That's really cool. And they're, they're actionable now because of the success of the movie. So, I mean, it's been, it's been cool, man, it's been, it's been a dream. It's like, it's always good to see something awesome to see something you made. People are engaging with it and makes you It puts wind in your sails. You know,

Alex Ferrari 40:54
that's why we do what we do. I mean, we, we make movies so people can watch it. Yeah, exactly. You know, and the more people that watch it, the more people connect with it, and actually like it. Oh, my God, that's the dream, you know, and if you can get paid. If you get paid somehow it can continue your continuous career. Why not? I love that, like, Hey, guys, we're gonna make another movie. This is awesome. Like, I'm actually employed for at least another couple years, at

Max Barbakow 41:24
least. Another movie and other thing and like another thing that we like, like and can choose from it. You know, it's like that, too. It's not just like taking the job for the sake of taking the job.

Alex Ferrari 41:34
And you said something, I want you to kind of clarify for people who don't understand when you say self generating as opposed to being like a director for hire, because I'm assuming you were pitched ton of stuff to direct and all that kind of stuff. And you've chosen I don't know, what what is your next project? And, and how do you

Max Barbakow 41:49
love that there's stuff that I'm attached to that, that were like directing assignments that but like, for me, it's always I'm, I'm about having that balance, like I want to work, I want to be working. And it's, I like I'm writing something right now. That's like a, like a passion project. And it's a labor of love. And I'm less, I like working with Andy a lot too, because there's another person in the room. And it's harder for me to stare at a blank page. And but I'm very passionate about this, I could do that. But like, I also want to go get back on set and stuff. So if there there's stuff that I could find a way into emotionally, and I think deserves to exist, you know, and I think it'd be really special. Of course, I'll go engage on that and try to get involved and make it. So for me, it's kind of like it's a balance.

Alex Ferrari 42:38
There. What is your next project? What's

Max Barbakow 42:39
the next project? Not not sure I'm writing this movie right now. That's that's about the the amazing Randy who actually just passed away yesterday. Rest in peace. That is super exciting.

Alex Ferrari 42:53
Isn't there a Jason momoa project that you're working on?

Max Barbakow 42:56
Yeah, they're trying to figure out when we could do that because of COVID stuff and scheduling stuff with that. Yeah, that's it's called the good, bad, good, bad and undead, and it's a it's very similar. It's Peter Dinklage and Jason momoa. It's like a buddy comedy. Nice, like a very, very self aware fantasy universe. I think we're just playing. The last Van Helsing version of Van Helsing is like, an alcoholic and a gambling addict. And no, as a vampire, we've taken a vow not to kill and a con artist comedy, they go around the village to village gone and people do this pretense to, to, to get them out. And they split the money. And then pretty soon, like a big bounce is put on their head and it becomes this giant chase movie. So it's like a very grounded human story about these two outcasts, you kind of bury a lot of their shame in this heightened world, which is kind of similar to Palm Springs. Right? That's, that's why I read it. I was like, this is really fun. Like, I could apply similar tools. You know, that sounds? That sounds awesome. I can't wait to see that. I

Alex Ferrari 43:58
hope I hope we are actually able to get that off. No big round one day, hopefully,

Max Barbakow 44:03
one day, hopefully

Alex Ferrari 44:04
to get on a set again, man. Just Exactly. I mean, do I mean, as I know, if I know a lot of directors and cinematographers who are working right now, depending on where they are in the country, or in the world. I mean, as a director, I haven't been on set since how, like, I don't want anyone to die. Because I'm making a movie. Like it's so yeah. How do you how do you how do you feel that you're going to get to back come back on the on the job?

Max Barbakow 44:31
I think from from what I've heard and and read it's it just is a lot you know, there's zones, it's a lot just very differentiated, like between shooting on film and shooting digitally. It's you have to be like very deliberate, you know, when the stakes are a little higher, and there's there's less room for for error. So I think it just is being very thoughtful with the number of people on set, which I think is good too. I think it's an opportunity, like redefine how many people you actually need to go make these things right. Think it's probably pretty hard for actors because you can't be as intimate. And for me, it's like, a no go go make something up. I think it's safe. But it's also you want to make sure that you're not. When you make something unsaid, I feel like it's already a set of compromises always. It's like once a compromise after caught, you know, you're always you're trying to just get it get into cancer, like this COVID thing is just a huge conference for everybody. Yeah, so it's, I don't know, man, I'm not I don't think I'm close to going back to anything. But hopefully soon, hopefully, in the new year.

Alex Ferrari 45:33
Let's hope man, let's hope now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests, all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? past COVID? Like,

Max Barbakow 45:43
yeah, they don't quit, you know, find a way not to quit. Like, that's the number. I think a lot of people just quit. But it's about perseverance. You know, and also recognizing, what idea is the idea to or project to really put, because I do, I do believe it's important to I mean, you want to have a lot of irons in the fire, but you want to put all your eggs in the basket that deserves those eggs. So it's about having the self awareness and like the taste, to know what the idea is worth, what ideas worth kind of really investing in a lot of your time. And because I see that a lot. Just, there's a passion project that it's like, Man, this is not, this is not the one you know, it's like, you just have to know you just have to kind of be aware of that way. And a lot of times it comes from that's a gut, a gut feeling in an instant, you know, it's the one it's based on character, and it's based on on emotion.

Alex Ferrari 46:39
Now, can you also let everybody know, because I'm assuming a lot of people listening right now think that you are an overnight sensation that you made one script, and it's just you walked it over to Andy. And Andy said, Sure, and you got 5 million bucks, you won Sundance and your career exploded, that, please tell everybody how long this overnight success actually took.

Max Barbakow 46:59
We went to Palm Springs, to I'm talking about like, the beginning of your career. Oh, like, I started, that I graduated college in 2013 or 2011. And started like, doing freelance doc stuff and writing then, you know, and then what is it 20 2020. So like, nine years of, like, chasing it in a way, but not kinda like that, that's, that's part of it. It's the journey, you know, you're never ready, like, nothing to put into the work if it just happens, you know, you have no, you have no foundation to stand like you need that. Always. And now, it's about even when you're done with a project, it's about starting over, you're back to zero. So you also have to, like, figure out who you are now, to, like, put that to put that into the project, which is a whole nother, you know, layer of, of the process, at least for me personally, yes, but input Palm Springs that started in like, 2015, the first seed of the idea and kind of, you know, in, in just in like 2000, mid 2016. So it's been, it takes time, you know, we're not doing just this, but it's like, you know, that's the one like I'm saying, I'm like, this is, this feels special, this feels like it could be really cool. So we can't quit on it.

Alex Ferrari 48:15
Now, um, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life,

Max Barbakow 48:24
I think patience. I mean, we're talking about it, but like, patience, you know, and being okay. With being in the moment, being okay, like very being sad about the work, you know, like, and just persevering, and not also not being turning off that whether it's writing or in the editor, whatever, turning off that critical voice in your head, and just kind of leaning into the process that that, that takes, I think, a little bit of experience,

Alex Ferrari 48:56
and what is the biggest fear you had to overcome to make this film? What was that thing that you had to kind of like, I gotta get past this in order to even be able to set foot on set?

Max Barbakow 49:07
I think failure you know, just just just, you know, getting past that and not putting the carpet like before the before the horse so to speak. And yeah, just not not even thinking about what it was going to end up as just kind of again, engaging with the process.

Alex Ferrari 49:26
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Max Barbakow 49:31
Oh, man. I would say Boogie Nights is definitely in there. I would say he gets alone either Fellini movie is really good. This makes sense.

Alex Ferrari 49:55
Both films that makes perfect sense so far, so far. You're on point you're on brands. So far so far.

Max Barbakow 50:03
And I would also say I look basketball a lot. I watched that again. Forever somehow under a movie. It is it is aged well, I think it's gotten much better with age, like sports fandom has become even more ridiculous on that, you know, it's like it's so

Alex Ferrari 50:25
and then it's that they actually created that entire sport. Yeah, like this rule. commitment. That's what like, again, learning from the Lonely Island and it's just like the silliest stuff. It's such commitment goes into that. And that's the genius of it. It's so all that silly stuff is always like so dense and so smart. And so well thought out, basically, boy, I just love that excellent, excellent choices. My friend. Excellent choices. Max has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, brother, I wish you continued success. You are an inspiration to all of us independent filmmakers out here you you have walked the path that many of us dream to walk. So I truly appreciate you sharing your adventures with us and, and continued success. Man, I wish you the best.

Max Barbakow 51:10
Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 51:13
Want to thank max for coming on the show and inspiring the tribe today. It is truly amazing to feel like you were in the room when these big deals were being made at Sundance. And again, it really, really inspired me tremendously. And I recommend everybody listening to go watch Palm Springs on Hulu. It is a really really great film. Now if you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, please head over to the show notes at indie film hustle comm forward slash for 38. And guys, I know most of us were not able to make it to Sundance this year. But if you want to feel like you're at Sundance, you should check out my movie that I shot at the Sundance Film Festival about three crazy filmmakers trying to hunt down a producer and sell their movie at the festival called on the corner of ego and desire. You can check that out at ego and desire film.com it's free on Amazon and on ifH TV. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always keep that also going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.

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BPS 140: The NO Bullsh*t Guide to Making Your Indie Film with Jeff Leisawitz

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Have you ever been in a place where nothing is going right creatively? Do you ever feel like you are standing in your own way? Me too. Today’s guest is author Jeff Leisawitz who wrote Not F*ing Around— the No Bullsh*t Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground.  This little pack is quite a punch.

I wanted to have Jeff on the show to drop some knowledge bombs to wake up the tribe a bit. To help you get out of your own way; to get you out of any creative rut.

Jeff Leisawitz, Not F*ing Around: The No Bullsh*t Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground

This guidebook is a manual for creatives who can’t quite get their creative juices flowing? The day job sucking your soul? Fizzled out before you put the finishing touches on your amazing creation? With relentless positivity, full-on authenticity, and a punk rock thunder spirit, author Jeff Leisawitz pulls back the curtain on the creative process and reminds us that we are all creative SuperStars.

It’s time to get off the couch and get on the path. It’s time to tap into the cosmic heartbeat that thumps in your chest and shines from your soul. It’s time to get NFA!

About Jeff Leisawitz: Jeff is an award-winning musician/ producer, a critically acclaimed author, and an internationally distributed filmmaker who has devoted his life to creativity.

As the guy behind Electron Love Theory, Jeff fused interviews with Seattle’s WTO demonstrators into electronic music, garnering more than a quarter-million downloads worldwide. Jeff has released five studio albums and has landed thousands of music placements in film, TV, and multimedia for clients like HBO, MTV, Discovery, Microsoft, NBC, and many others.

As the founding writer for Seattle’s taste-making alternative rock station 107.7 The End, he chronicled the alternative grunge scene in the 90s.

 

After training as a Life Coach and practicing NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Re-Patterning) Jeff landed a gig as an adjunct faculty member at Pacific Lutheran University— teaching college students to rock. (Seriously)

When creative businesses, schools, and organizations like Brown Paper Tickets, Tacoma School of the Arts, Gage Academy of Art, Northwest Film Forum, and others need to amp up the creativity, Jeff leads workshops and events to fire up the creative spirit and empower people to tap into their true potential.

Enjoy my conversation with Jeff Leisawitz.

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

  • Jeff Leisawitz – IMDB
  • Jeff Leisawitz – Website
  • Not F*ing Around–the No Bullsh*t Guide for Getting Your Creative Dreams Off the Ground – Amazon

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Alex Ferrari 0:28
Now I know all of us have problems getting our creative dreams off the ground. And we always struggle with our own demons, or obstacles that we throw in front of ourselves or obstacles that are thrown in front of us trying to just go down the journey go down the path to get to where we want to be, wherever that might be in our careers in our just life journeys. And today's guest, Jeff Leisawitz wrote a book to help you with that part of your journey. It's called no effing around the no BS guide for getting your creative dreams off the ground. And I had a chance to read this little book and it is just plumb full of amazing little stories, guides, things that to just kind of help you. And it's kind of like a reference book that you can go back to again and again. And again, when you're feeling down. Or if something comes up against you. It really helps you break through a lot of that creative bs that that we put in front of ourselves, I had to deal with that for 20 odd years of just constantly getting in my own way. And this book hopefully will help you get out of your own way to make your dreams and your creative dreams come true and your professional dreams come true as well. So this episode, me and Jeff really dive into the book go over a lot of the tips and techniques that he came up with to help creatives just get out of their own way and also just be able to achieve those goals that they're going after. So without any further ado, here is my conversation with Jeff Leisawitz. I'd like to welcome the show, JJeff Leisawitz. Man, thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Jeff Leisawitz 3:36
Hey, thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Alex Ferrari 3:39
So you've written this wonderful book, called no effing around the no BS guide for getting your creative dreams off the ground. And I wanted to have you on the show. Because I think everybody in the tribe listening definitely can help have to get a little bit of assistance in that they get in their creative dreams off off the ground, myself included. So why did you decide to write the book in the first place?

Jeff Leisawitz 4:05
Well, I wrote this book, really by accident. I was minding my own business going to the coffee shop on a weekend morning as I often do, to do some writing, whether it's on a screenplay or journaling, or poetry, or just whatever. And I just wrote this piece, which was, you know, sort of this empowerment kind of stuff. And when I was done, I was like, geez, this is pretty good. Maybe I should write a book. Why not? I've never read a book before. Let's do it. So I wrote an outline, you know, shortly thereafter and then busted the thing out. But it wasn't until after I wrote it, that I realized why this was such an important piece for me and hopefully for the world as well. And that is because on one hand, I'm this big creative. I've spent my whole life as a musician, as a writer, as a filmmaker, as a photographer, all That kind of stuff. But on the other hand, I'm also really big into empowerment empowering people. So everything from being a summer camp counselor with the arts and crafts program to teaching songwriting to college students now, I also am a life coach, right practicing life life, life coach stuff, and something called NLP Neuro Linguistic repatterning, which is sort of fringy philosophy, psychology practice, where you help people untangle their subconscious blocks, so they can move forward and make better choices around their worlds and you know, the things that are sort of built in with them. So this book really put both of these pieces of myself together in the same place and seems to be working.

Alex Ferrari 5:51
Now, why do people get in their own way, specifically in the creative world, because I know I'm, I'm definitely a victim of that.

Jeff Leisawitz 6:00
People get in their own way as creatives for about a zillion reasons. But I believe it all comes down to our psychology, because the way we think, both consciously and unconsciously, seriously affects and maybe even totally affects everything we do. So if you have a belief system that was sort of programmed into your brain, when you were a kid, right about not taking risks, okay, and that's in there. And that's, that's your thing. And now it's time for you to take a risk in your creative life, guess what, you're probably not going to do it. On the flip side, if you were programmed with an idea that says, Take every risk possible, anything goes, right, maybe you sneak money out of your mom's retirement account, to make the film in black and white. Right, right. Right, because hey, any risk goes, both of these strategies are really not that helpful. Both are too extreme. So if you can understand where you're coming from, and the forces that are driving you, as a creative, you will then be much better able to make better choices.

Alex Ferrari 7:25
Now, how can you discover what you love to do? Because I know a lot of people listening, you know, they listened to the podcast, because obviously they want to be a filmmaker, or screenwriter, or some sort of creative, but but how do you know what you love to do? There's so many different things you can do even within the film industry, there's 1000 different jobs. How do you find that thing that it that makes it I gotta do this for the rest of my life?

Jeff Leisawitz 7:50
Well, the the biggest way to dig into that is to keep asking questions. And the question that at the end of the day is always Why, why why why. But before we even get to that, take a look at what you love. Right? If it's, you know, for talking about making films, what do you love about films? Is it the story? Is it the way the character emotes on screen? Is it the special effects? Is that the sound, right? I mean, this is pretty obvious, but it's going to drive you towards what you love. If you if you love experiencing it, you're then going to love creating it or working with it or something like that. So really just taking a look around. And then the next question is why? Why do you want to write a story? And what kind of stories do you want to write? There's a concept out there called make your mess, your message, right? What is your pain? What is your What is your tragedy? What is your, you know, the difficulties that you've had in life? And then create a story from that if you're a screenwriter, right, or director things like this. So those are ways to start digging in, you know, another way might be to look at what you do want, like aspects around the sort of job or career path? Would you want to work alone? Do you want to work with people, right? Huge difference, and that's going to separate you from you know, separate these jobs in huge ways.

Alex Ferrari 9:34
Also, I would also throw in there, ask yourself why you want to do something even if you find something you think you love. Ask yourself why do you want to do it? Because are you doing it for money? Are you doing it for fame? Are you doing it for Fortune? What what's what's the purpose? Would you do it if you weren't getting paid? You know, that's, that's always a great if you could do if you can answer them like I would do this and if I and I get paid, I'll be happy.

Jeff Leisawitz 9:58
That is absolutely True. Because if you are being driven by something that is not true to your heart, in any career, it doesn't even matter if it's creative, it can be anything. If your head and your heart are not aligned, you will never be able to take action that is that is balanced and focused. And it will never get as far as you would like it to go. If you were just doing it for the money. You know, that's not a it's not a real good driver. And hopefully there should be something else in there when we all got to get paid. And you know, of course,

Alex Ferrari 10:37
I guess you're on course, of course. Yeah.

Jeff Leisawitz 10:40
But it's not the only factor. And you know, fame. Like what is fame? And you know, the question, like you said, is why? Why do you want fame? Because guess what, when you get it, if you get it, it's not going to be what you think it is, I promise you that

Alex Ferrari 10:55
I just had the pleasure of doing a pre screening of the new movie coming out called the last movie star, I'm going to be having the director on soon, which is starring Burt Reynolds. And it is a story about basically a washed up actor, who was at one point, the biggest movie star in the world. And it is heartbreaking to watch, but rennels, for everybody who doesn't know on, you know, for all the millennials out there who doesn't know, Burt Reynolds was Burt Reynolds was basically Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt thrown together. And he was the number one star in the world for probably like six to 10 years, making the most money out of all of them. And you know, he's fallen on hard times. And you know, he's kind of fallen off. But the movie was brilliant. But the one thing I loved about watching that is, when you're talking about fame, it doesn't get more famous than Burt Reynolds at the point of his peak, like he was the biggest star in the world. But at the end, does it matter? What did you do with your life? Were you happy?

Jeff Leisawitz 12:03
Exactly what are you contributing? And what you know, what do you How are you healing? through your creative work? I mean, it's a huge part of my book, and my workshops and stuff like that, you know, sort of the the main theme of what I've got going on over here is using our creativity, our creativity, to be seen, expressed and healed. Right. So what do I mean by that to be seen? Well, you know, as we're running around in the world, it's easy to become anonymous, right? It's just people everywhere. So there's that piece, but then the next piece is like, Okay, what about your inner circles, your friends, your family, your you know, significant others, co workers, people like that? Did they see you and understand you? Yes, hopefully somewhat a little bit maybe. Right? But do they fully see you and understand you. So if you can use creativity, to you know, create something, whatever it is song movie piece of writing, whatever, it's a new way to be seen. The second piece is to be expressed. So what do I mean by that? It means to go from the potential to the actual. So the potential is, you know, the dancer who knows all the moves, but she's sitting in the corner, on the day, you know, on the dance floor is right there. And the music's playing in that moment, she has just potential. But as soon as she gets up there and actually does it, that's when she becomes actualized as a dancer. So once you're seen and expressed, then the healing comes in. Right. So a lot of creativity, a lot of films, a lot of books, a lot of stories, especially are, you know, away, to have a catharsis create a catharsis for yourself? What are my tragedies, what are my struggles, all this kind of stuff? You get it out there for the world, but it's even more than that. Right? That's the sort of obvious healing. But there's also a healing, I believe that goes on. When, you know, if you write a love song, right, sure. Where's the healing in that? Well, the healing and the love song is all the loneliness that preceded the celebration of that song. Okay. So when you're seeing expressed and heal through your creativity, something really cool happens. You give a gift to the world. That's your film. That's your screenplay. That's whatever you're up to. And then here's the even cooler part because it comes around in a circle. When you when you're seeing expressed and healed and you give your gift to the world, and by that I don't mean you know, a major release of your film or this or that. I mean, it can be a small thing, right? It can be a poem to your your friend or your girlfriend or something. Right. But when you do this, you become the gift, right? Because you show Others in the world that they can be seen, expressed and healed. And this is freakin huge. If we all did this with this kind of intention, the world would rise in a way that would be huge.

Alex Ferrari 15:17
You know, and one thing as I gotten older in life, I've noticed this with films, going back to features, that when you when you see a movie by a filmmaker or group of collaborators, who truly love what they are doing, who truly have an amazing intention, it spills off the screen, it spills off the screen. But it does, but when you watch something like and I've bashed this movie enough, but I'll bash it again, the Justice League, you watch that, and you can see people in it who want to, but the box is not, you know, the the, the car is not really well put together to go on the journey. You know, and it's just this, this Hollywood, like, flashy stuff. And we've seen it a million times, you know, with all the transformer movies, you know, all that kind of stuff, you can tell that it's not coming with the right intention. But you watch a movie like Black Panther, and it spills off the screen, the intention of that movie is you know, it's it literally, and audiences can pick it up.

Jeff Leisawitz 16:28
I totally agree with that there is a you know, I believe almost like a metaphysical energy that is imbued or infused into our creations. So an example I like to use on that is, you know, your basic pop star. Right, you put them up there, and yeah, they can sing. Yeah, the song has a hook. It sounds good.

Alex Ferrari 16:50
It's already He's good looking. Yeah, sure.

Jeff Leisawitz 16:52
Exactly. And you might even like it, and you might even like it for, you know, a minute or a week or a month, but then it disappears. Yep. And then you've got a song like Aretha Franklin going Ari SP CT. Mm hmm.

Alex Ferrari 17:06
And you can feel that oh, my God, can you that song? Oh, God, you can feel like almost any song by YouTube.

Jeff Leisawitz 17:15
Exactly. It's because they're coming from the heart. They're coming from real truth. And they're tapped into it. And that is what audiences always respond to.

Alex Ferrari 17:27
I think also, I know we're going off track a little bit, but I think we're still on topic is, as as filmmakers, as storytellers, if we can if we can tap into truth, and authenticity, because in today's world, there's so much Bs, there's so much fake news, if you will, fake this or fake that, or, you know, people putting out these fake lives on Instagram that like, Look, my life is perfect. Or on Snapchat, when you know, and I know, it's not one, but when you put something that's truth out there, people so so can feel it, and are drawn to it because they want authenticity in their stories. They want truth, they want to feel something from the artist, not something that's manufactured truth, because manufacture truth might have worked in the past, but people are so savvy now. And that's why Hollywood's having such a tough time. You know, they're having a really tough time. You know, unless they're able to tap into some of those real truth. And I'm not saying you can't have a fun movie and have truth. Like, again, Black Panther, I saw it was wonderful, so much fun to watch. But you could just see it spilling off the screen authenticity of that movie of Ryan coogler, who wrote it and directed it. It was amazing. It was amazing. But would you agree with that?

Jeff Leisawitz 18:49
I totally, totally agree with that. And I believe there is a major paradigm shift coming and actually underway right now. With artists and thinkers and business and all this stuff, because you're right, people are sick of the crap. They're sick of corporate, you know, agendas, they're sick of just just things without any soul or truth or that's

Alex Ferrari 19:15
Why artisan foods and artisan crafts and you know, in you know, they don't want to buy a table that was made in China, they want to make it they want to know who made their table, you know? Exactly, it's to an extreme I mean, I don't want to get hipster on everybody but but but artisan food like understanding where food comes from where organic food comes from, as opposed to McDonald's. That's why McDonald's is having such a an all these fast food places are having such a tough time because the world is changing and they're being left behind in their wake. And people want that authenticity in their food, in their in their entertainment in their books. You know, you can go back there's certain books you go read 1984 tomorrow today and it's still gonna ring true. Right gonna threw in another 50 years, maybe a little too true.

Jeff Leisawitz 20:03
And this is a huge opportunity for us as independent creators. Right? We have tools now, obviously with, you know, cameras and all kinds of computers and the internet and podcasts and all this stuff, right. As well as distribution that, you know, we've never seen before, you know, so we can tell powerful stories without spending $100 million to do it. Oh, yeah. Right. Absolutely. So that is a key piece that, you know, I think filmmakers really need to hear it's like, Yeah, it's great to have the production values and all that kind of stuff. But what's really going to drive the story is a great story and actors who care, right?

Alex Ferrari 20:54
Exactly, and not actors who want the biggest, the biggest trailer, it's about the story and about getting into the weeds and exposing themselves, not physically, but emotionally and spiritually on that screen. That's why when you watch Meryl Streep, god damn man every time because she knows how to do Daniel Day. Like, every single time, they just know how to tap into that truth. Without question. Mm hmm. It's pretty insane. It's pretty insane. So let me ask you, you suggest people fail fast? I agree with you. And I understand what you're saying. But can you explain it to the audience? why people should fail and fail fast?

Jeff Leisawitz 21:41
People should fail fast, because failure is an absolutely necessary step to success. Okay. I have talked to the hundreds of success, like very successful people in different fields. And they all say the same thing. Thank goodness for failure. Right? So here's the deal. failure. First of all, it First of all, it's looking at it in such a way that it's not you are a failure, it is I failed, right? And there's a very big difference. And that goes back to the psychology again, right? If you identify yourself as a failure, that's not good. And you really got to work on that. But when you look at it as I failed in this particular, you know, event, or or creation, or whatever you're going for, that's fine, right? You separate it, you deal with the pain of it, perhaps. And then you step back and you're like, what can I learn from this? Okay, here's what went wrong. Here's what could be optimized. Here's what could be better. Here's what could be cheaper, or here's what I want to spend more money on, you know, whatever, just ask a million questions, because remember, the better the questions that you ask, the better the answers you're gonna get.

Alex Ferrari 23:04
Right? It's like, a question like, why did I suck at this? Not a good question. Not a good question. Exactly. It's gonna Yeah, as opposed to like, what can I learn from this situation to make myself be a better filmmaker or person? Exactly. better question.

Jeff Leisawitz 23:21
Exactly. So you know, my philosophy of fail fast is you get it together, the best you can you get in the car, you you step on the gas, you crash into the wall, you step back, you learn what you can learn, you get in the car, and you step on the gas again, and hopefully you go a little bit further this time.

Alex Ferrari 23:40
You know, the funny thing is that with that mentality, I've done that so many times in my life where I just get in the car and just drive to see what happens. And I've crashed multiple times. Like as you as you should. Exactly. And then with my latest film, I actually got in the car, and just put the gas to the floor. And I didn't crash, which was very odd. I was like, Oh, my God, it's things are things are happening. Let's go. It was a fast trip, but I got it done. And I think well, I wouldn't have been able to do that unless I crashed a million times before. And I could just weave and dive through the obstacles that I knew were coming. Right, but you need to fail. And I would say not only fail fast, fail often. Yes, absolutely. as well. Now, are there any tips on how on how to handle the world just slapping you're kicking your ass on your journey because reality in the world always comes in and just slaps you across the face. It happened to me in my early 20s. And anytime I see someone young or even someone older, who's got a complete chip on their shoulder or completely arrogant, I'm like, I don't care who you are. It will happen at one point or another. The world will come crashing down on you Some sometimes bigger than, then than you expect, what do you? What kind of advice? Can you give people on how to handle that first slap across the face? From the world?

Jeff Leisawitz 25:13
Sure. Well, the first, the first thing I would consider is not taking it personally. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that sounds pretty basic, but it's true, because as creators, you know, somewhere within us, we believe that our creations and our projects are us in a way that is different from the way an accountant might think of this and accountants screws something up, ooh, you know, sorry, you know, that's my bad or whatever. But it's not like it's their baby, right? It's not their child, right. But creatives tend to believe that what they are creating is them. So you must separate this conceptually in your head. Right. And that is going to give you a lot more distance, and a lot more breathing room, from the pain that the world will definitely give to you at one time or another. And really, really, a lot of the time. You know, if you're going for it, you're gonna get way more rejections than success and failures than successes. In any of us. You know, when I was in college, and I was getting ready to graduate, you know, I've got all my creative dreams and stuff. And my advisor sits me down, and she says, you know, if you're going to be an artist, get ready for 97%, pain and rejection. And I was like, You gotta be kidding me. And now it's like, yeah, I maybe pick that up to 98 and a half percent. It's like, there's a lot. So there's the one piece. The other piece is sort of what we talked about before, which is process and product, right? If you genuinely and deeply love doing the thing that you are doing, there is a gift to bear. As opposed to, I got to make a ton of money. I got to be famous. I've got to win some award, like like the ego stuff. Right? So if you genuinely love writing screenplays, hey, of course, it's great to sell one, of course, it's great to produce one and go for it. And I'm totally down with that. And you're going to have a lot more longevity and a lot more health, in your hearts and being you get value simply out of doing it.

Alex Ferrari 27:47
Absolutely. And yeah, so much more. Because that kind of lessons, that's a great decimal great advice. Because if you love doing it, regardless of what the outcome is, which is one thing I've always said is don't attach outcome to whatever you're creating as much as little as possible, because that's when you really get hurt. And that's when those slaps really, really hurt. Without question. Now, can you discuss the two major motivating forces that guide most of every decision that we make, which is avoiding fear, and gaining love of one way, shape, or form or love of something?

Jeff Leisawitz 28:26
Absolutely, those are the true, the two forces that will guide everything, we are either moving towards love, or avoiding fear, and you know, in pain, and you know, those kinds of things. So, it's really critical to, again, ask yourself questions. What are you doing? And why are you doing it? Right, and if you're moving towards love, and there are reasons to move away from fear, and again, conflict and pain and all that, I mean, there's definitely a purpose there. But to use these powers, and these motivators in such a way, that helps you, you know, move towards the truth of who you are and what your expression is. And if you do that, the outcome might not be exactly what you thought it you wanted. But it will still be valuable for you. I mean, I'm sitting here now talking about this book and all this stuff, you know, around empowering creatives, guess what, up until, you know, two years ago, I had no idea this was like really my mission. You know, I want to be a rock star and a filmmaker and all this stuff. And I you know, I still love all that stuff. But again, I was attaching this huge outcome to these endeavors. Now, it's like, Hey, you know what, I'm going out here. I'm doing my thing. And, you know, hopefully people will get some value out of it.

Alex Ferrari 30:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And same exact same thing for me. Three years ago, I had no idea that I was going to be doing this, interviewing people like you doing a podcast, doing a website, doing all this kind of stuff. And if you would have told me, oh, you would have shot to feature films, and you, you know, have this podcast and, you know, in this community you've built up and helping people, I would have never would have never believed it. So it but when you find it, you're like, Oh, this feels good. I'm gonna keep doing, I'm gonna keep doing this.

Jeff Leisawitz 30:40
Okay. And, and again, I believe that's the alignment of our head and our heart and our action.

Alex Ferrari 30:48
Yes. Yes, without question. Because I mean, I've been I know, you've been on projects like this too, but you're on a project, you're doing it for the money, or you're doing it for something other than what really you should be doing it for. And it never turns out, right? It always becomes painful, it always becomes stressful. It always is. It's a car crash car. Hey, man, I've crashed that car plenty of times. And it's tough sometimes, because you want to take them, you know, sometimes a gig is a gig. And you got to do it for the money sometimes. And don't get me wrong, I've done that millions of times.

Jeff Leisawitz 31:27
And that, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But as we move forward in our lives, you know, the question is ask the questions of what can drive you towards sustainability, you know, as you know, making a living or whatever? And also, what, why do you want to do the thing that you want to do? Because that is going to make a huge difference. And again, you know, we're sort of talking about this in terms of, like career stuff, like, but it doesn't have to be, you can make films on the weekends for the hell of it. You can write screenplays, because you like writing screenplays and not even worry about selling it or making things right. It's just, you know, again, it comes down to the process and the product, what are you trying to do? Why are you doing it?

Alex Ferrari 32:18
And it's never too late. That's the other big thing I love to preach is like, Look, if you're 50 if you're 60 and you want to start writing screenplays start writing screenplays. Sure, that was a Julia Child's was 6465 when she started. Oh, wow. Yeah. And the colonel from KFC. I think he was like 70 when he opened up his first KFC. That's a good piece of trivia. I like that, you know, like these guys started late in life, it there's no reason why age should stop you. You know, and a lot of ways as you get older, you have a lot more tools in those toolbox to get started, as opposed to a 20 year old getting started. In the exam field. Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. Now, how do you handle that wonderful little voice in your head? That tells you you're not good enough? Why are you even bothering doing this year? You have no talent? Look at you. How do you handle that guy?

Jeff Leisawitz 33:20
I call that little voice in our heads the IQ or the inner critic, right? You've sort of heard that before. And it is true that if the IQ gets loud enough, or talks long enough, it will kill any creative dream that comes across your your heart. Right? So how do we deal with this thing? Well, first of all, we have to realize that it's actually there for a reason. Okay? The reason is outdated, outmoded, whatever, but the reason is to keep you safe. Okay? So, you know, you go back, you know, 10,000 years or whatever, it's to keep you safe from the tiger and you know, all those kinds of things. But now, the world is a lot different. We're not faced generally, with that many physical threats. Now, what's more emotional threats, or possibly financial threats? Right? Are we fitting into the group? Are we you know, are is our ego balanced and healthy or not? Things like that. So, first, by acknowledging that IQ, you know, the, your inner critic, is there for a reason and to honor it for that, right? Actually lessens its power. Right? Then, you sort of you can get into meditations I do this in my workshops and my you know, stuff like this meditations where you go in, you go into your mind, you go into your heart, and you'll be like, Okay, again, thank you for your service, but you are not needed here. And I've got various exercises where you can essentially turn down the volume on what the IQ says and how it says it. by loving the EQ and letting it go, you take away its power. And that is tremendous. Because if it's too loud, it is going to screw you up. And we've all had it.

Alex Ferrari 35:24
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my IQ is Mike was on full blown. He was full blown. But eventually you kind of you kind of wrangle them down. It's, it's that little voice, I always tell people the story, the little voice, like, Look, the little voice in your head is the is your best friend and your worst enemy at the same time. We all we all had a dinner. And then we're stuffed because we ate this huge dinner. And all of a sudden, dessert tray comes out. And you want to like, Alright, let me just have a piece of cheesecake. It just looks too good. And that little voice inside of you is telling you. Yeah, I just had the cheesecake going, you'll go to the gym a little bit more, you'll you'll burn it off. Don't worry about it. That night, when you get home and you take your clothes off in front of the mirror, that same voice goes to you fat pig. Why did you eat that cheesecake? You've got to control that voice? Because if not, they will control you. Exactly. Exactly. Now, there's a there's a chapter in your book that says say yes. And agree to whatever is in front of you. Can you explain a little bit of that? Sure.

Jeff Leisawitz 36:33
So years ago, I took an improv comedy class, I guess, right? And there's a bunch of different tenets about how to do improv comedy. One of them that really struck me was say yes, and, and what they meant by that was, you know, when you're improving a scene, you need to take whatever facts or information that everybody else is putting out there and assume it's true. So if somebody else says the aliens are coming down, and they're spaghetti all over the floor, right? You buy it. And then you move on, you know, okay, maybe we should feed the aliens, some spaghetti might be your, you know, what you do as an actor in there. Okay, if you don't accept that reality, the whole thing stops dead. Right? So I thought this was really a really smart way to think about the world. Because if you say yes, in your life, what that essentially means is I am accepting reality as it is as objectively as you can look at it. Okay, that's the first piece. Where are you? Really? What are your skills? Where do you want to go? What's your thing? Right? And then the second piece is, say yes. And blank. What can you add to what's already there? How can you create value? How can you move forward? How can you do all this kind of stuff? That is going to essentially step the scene up? Right? Just like it does an improv comedy? What's the scene in your life that you can step up? So you know, if, if, if the reality of your life is I can't afford a big fancy camera, but Jeez, I've got my iPhone. That's the Yes. Okay. And then, what's the end? Well, jeez, I know, a couple friends who are actors, and I have this little script. Let's bust this thing out. So now, you've accepted reality, and you've created value and move forward with that, which is a lot different from the mindset of, well, geez, I only have an iPhone and not even realizing you have an iPhone. I can't get up my $30,000 to do my scene. You know, I have to hire all these people and stuff like that. Sure. It's great if you have that, but that's not your reality. Right? Right. So by clearly looking at what is your reality, you can then step forward in more meaningful and powerful ways.

Alex Ferrari 39:11
That's a powerful really powerful statement. Honestly, it really is because I was caught in that or in that world for so long. of I can't make I can't make a move until everything's perfect. So I have the right camera, the right dp, the right cast the right store, like it froze me for 20 years, you know, till I finally just said, screw it. I'm tired. Wait, I'm just gonna and I actually just said, This is my reality. This is what I'm gonna go do.

Jeff Leisawitz 39:43
And that I mean, that's my exact story filmmaking wise to I was trying to sell my screenplays, you know, to Hollywood producers and stuff and like, you know, getting the bites but you know, no sales. And finally, like, screw this. I'm just making, I'm making short. I'm just doing it. I just did. Man, isn't it. It's amazing. It's also amazing. By the way, it's might be helpful for your listeners, I put that thing out. It's called mystic coffee. I put it out to tons and tons of film festivals. And I got shot down by every single one of them. And I was like, oh, man, wow, that's a major fail. Right, right. And then I get a call out of the clear blue from a company called Gaia TV. Sure, right. Conscious media is what they do and call themselves and they're like, somebody showed us your film from a film festival, you know, or, you know, a curator at a film festival or whatever. And we love it. We want to give you a 10 year non exclusive deal worldwide. Like, sure. Like Okay, now the films out there, it's making money and people are seeing it. So you don't ever know. The way it's gonna go.

Alex Ferrari 40:59
It's never the way you think mostly. It's rarely the way it's it's rarely that way. And it's generally sometimes it's better. A lot of times I find it's better than what you imagined. Or at least different. At least different at least definitely different without without question. Yeah. It the whole Oh, by the way, I don't know if you knew this or not Steven Soderbergh just made this his latest film on an iPhone. Really, purely because, you know, obviously, Steven, because you in on whatever he wants, right? He decided to go on an iPhone, I watched the trailer of it, I was like, looks pretty good.

Jeff Leisawitz 41:37
And I'm sure I would love to hear his, you know, his reasoning for doing that.

Alex Ferrari 41:43
I think he just, I think he's one of those guys. He's like, he's never gonna make a movie for a studio again. He's done with that. So he, he just said that he's going to be doing his movies the way he wants to make them, and just go out and shoot them. And just, he doesn't care. And because he's got the clout of who he is, actors will come and work for him. And, and he's gonna just do his movies. And I think he wanted to, I think he wanted to prove that it can be done, which is a lot of stuff that he's done is like, I'm just gonna prove that it could get done. Right, you know, and he's just gonna do it. And it looked pretty good. You know, I mean, if you watch tangerine, which is Shawn Baker's beautiful movie, shot on the iPhone, it looked great. It was like, remarkably great. Did you see his latest movie Florida project? I have not. Oh, such right. We completely, completely snubz he should have been should have been an Oscar nominated film, without question. But anyway, um, so let me ask you, what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Jeff Leisawitz 42:53
Well, basically what you just said, which is just do your thing and love what you're doing. If you're a screenwriter, write screenplays, put them out, you know, do whatever you got to do there with that kind of the business stuff. But write the screenplays for the right reasons, the reasons that matter to you. Same thing with the filmmaker, bust out your iPhone, or borrow your buddy's camera. I don't like just do it. However, you can do it. You're going to be moving forward, you're going to be getting better at your craft, you're going to be failing fast, and you're going to be getting better and you're going to be stepping closer towards your goal. And at the end of the day, if you love what you're doing, you're already winning.

Alex Ferrari 43:38
Amen. Yeah. Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Jeff Leisawitz 43:52
I've read I've read a lot of books. I, the first one that the one that pops into my mind is Catcher in the Rye, which I turned on to probably as a maybe 12 or 13 year old was sitting in my parents bookshelf. And I read that book literally, every year from probably 13 to 25. I love that book so much. And then I stopped and then you know, maybe when I was sitting around 40 or so I read it again for the first time since then. And I was amazed at the difference of perspective that I had between being younger and being a little older. So what did I get out of that book? I think I related hugely to obviously it's a Holden Caulfield, the character specifically, in ways that he could see through the bullshit of the world. Half of this book was him looking at stuff and saying, like, Man, this school that I'm at, everybody's a phony, right? And here's the beauty in this little piece of the world over here that nobody's even looking at. Right? And over here, this is this is a bunch of crap. Right? So, you know, grown up, and even now still, I have the same mindset. I'm like, Where is the beauty? Where's the truth? And where is the nonsense? And let's get rid of the nonsense. Let's think, for ourselves. Please write, we are so inundated with media, with, you know, peer group, with advertising and marketing, with social with, you know, like educational institutions and government, like all this stuff, has a gigantic effect on us. And if you're not, if you don't have your filters up, this stuff will brainwash you. So, again, being more conscious and asking questions, why do I think I have to buy this expensive thing? Hmm. Is it because you really need it? Or is it because you've seen 40,000 ads for it?

Alex Ferrari 46:20
Great. If I if I if I may translate that for filmmakers? Do I really need to buy an Alexa? Or can the iPhone work? Or can a Blackmagic Pocket camera work? You know, or cheaper? You know that that whole gear, people buying gear again and again and again and again? Do you really need it? What do you what's the minimum thing you need to do your art?

Jeff Leisawitz 46:41
Exactly. And it can be an excuse? Oh, guys, I need I need all this expensive stuff in a huge budget to do my thing. Now, you know, you know, the freakin Beatles made Sergeant Pepper's with a four track. Right? So if they can do that, what can you do with all of this stuff? Most of which is so cheap and even free.

Alex Ferrari 47:09
Right! It's pretty, it's pretty remarkable. And for the kids in the audience, The Beatles were a band back in the signum joking. I just saw amazing documentary on how the Beatles changed the world and just completely changed my perspective on them the death before but I really loved them after I saw that document.

Jeff Leisawitz 47:30
I just saw that too. Isn't that good?

Alex Ferrari 47:31
Netflix and Netflix and amazing documentary? Right? Yeah. I didn't know that. They literally changed the music industry multiple times. Yeah, it's remarkable. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Jeff Leisawitz 47:52
Wow, well, I'm still learning it, I'm sure. But something recently came up. That is really pretty extraordinary for me. And this goes down into the psychology. So I was I was with some people. And I was saying, Hey, you know, my business or my book and my workshops. In some ways, it's going great. I'm getting out there. I've got clients, and you know, people showing up to the events and all this kind of stuff, fantastic. But it's really not getting as big as I would like it to be, I'm not having as much impact as I know, I could write. So there was sort of giving me advice or thoughts on it. And one person said, you're not confident, I'm like, wait a minute, I'm confident when I started, I was not confident, you know, of course, I'm starting a new thing. It's out of my comfort zone. Now I can talk about the stuff I know what I'm doing, et cetera, et cetera. So I really felt in my mind that I was confident. However, somebody else said to me, you're you are confident in your mind. But your heart is not fully ready to be seen. And I was like, Oh, my mind blown. And this has, you know, without getting too far into it, this has been sort of an issue under an undercurrent of my consciousness my whole life for various reasons. And so I took this little bit of wisdom, and I'm still doing this journaling on this, why is it that I'm not really ready to be seen? And how can I be seen and how would it feel to be seen because that's vulnerability, right? That's huge. You're putting yourself out there as any creative does. And then meditations around this stuff, again, using some of these NLP techniques that I know to re essentially rewire my subconscious and let me tell you Have something within days of this happening. And this was really just like two, three weeks ago, within days of this, I have gotten a ton of new clients, a ton of new opportunities to speak, and do my thing, and workshops, and all this stuff without changing my outward actions in any significant way. Amazing, isn't it? It's amazing. And, and that is why I really believe so deeply, that it's not just your head and your action in the world that will help Of course, you know, move you towards your goals, but it is the energy within you. And if you can unblock that, and move that forward. That is it will help you in tremendous ways.

Alex Ferrari 50:52
And sometimes it takes a lifetime for people to understand that it does that they just they they die, bitter and angry, because they didn't achieve their goal. But a lot of it was like you just didn't find this one key inside of you to unlock that part that stopping you. Because at the end of the day, if you keep pushing forward. And obviously if you keep hitting the wall in the same place, and the walls not moving, you got to change your direction, change your attack, if you will, sure. But at a certain point, if you keep at it, you will have to make some sort of some sort of headway in, you know, look, if your goal is like, I need to win 10 Oscars, I'm like, this is not, this is not First of all, a horrible goal, to start the journey on. If that's if that's the only way you're doing it is to get 10 Oscars, that was the point. But I think that people do get so they see that thing inside of them, or they don't see that thing inside of them that stops them. Like me, it took me 20 years to get out of my own way. And once I got out of my own way, it was like a rocket ship. It just took off in a way. And it's only happened in the last three, three years or so. For me, and it was because I got on my own way. And I got a lot of these preconceived notions out of my head, you know, like, Oh, god, what is going to be my first movie, my first movie has to come out, it has to be Reservoir Dogs. Right? You know, it's got, it's got to take the world by storm. I'm like, No, dude, it does not. You could just make the movie. And if it's good, great. If it's not, you make another one. And so on. So it is it's sad. But anytime I see that in people, I always try to help as much as I can. Because I'm no expert by any stretch. But I always try to, like, look inside, what's stopping you? Because you've been doing this for 10 or 15 years? Do you agree? Like there's something there's something? It's more likely something inside of you?

Jeff Leisawitz 52:58
Exactly. It's it's always let me just say that it is always you to some extent, and usually, to a large extent, right. So again, that's what I do with my coaching. And that's what I do at these workshops is, you know, help people not only with the practical actions, because that's important too. But dig into the why unblock these pieces that are screwing us up, create different identities. Did you fail? Or are you a failure? Right? The all this kind of stuff? Are you ready to be seen Why or why not? Right? And if we get into that stuff, it changes. It just changes everything.

Alex Ferrari 53:40
Absolutely. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Jeff Leisawitz 53:44
Oh my. Well, gosh, three, I'm going to go with you know, it's so easy to say it but Pulp Fiction because I mean, that's just some great first Star Wars movie. You know, I feel connected with Luke.

Alex Ferrari 54:02
We all do. That's why it's why it's Star Wars.

Jeff Leisawitz 54:05
That's right. I sort of escaped my home planet and i've you know, believe in the forest. I'll turn that freakin scope off for that last, you know, killer shot.

Alex Ferrari 54:15
Yep, yep. Yep.

Jeff Leisawitz 54:18
What's another one I love? Well, I love contact.

Alex Ferrari 54:21
Oh, wow. Yeah, I love contact.

Jeff Leisawitz 54:24
No, I mean, that's essentially faith and, and science

Alex Ferrari 54:29
McConaughey and Foster had absolutely no chemistry but the movie was correct.

Jeff Leisawitz 54:33
Yes. I and one of my screenplays is thematically similar to that panaceas dream about a shaman, a scientist who invent a pill that cures any illness and it works. But they don't know why it works. And you know, when the scientist sister starts dying and the pill doesn't work for her. The scientist has to figure this out. Sounds Yeah, you Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I could list a bunch more movies, but

Alex Ferrari 55:05
No worries, no worries, threes good threes. Good. Now where can people find you?

Jeff Leisawitz 55:10
Right! best way is jeffleisawitz.com. Hopefully you can spell that right, or our show notes. And yeah, sign up, you know, for the newsletter, and you can have free chapters in my book. So that's cool. And then again, I do the coaching, and both creativity and business coaching, by the way, you know, branding, social media, all that kind of stuff, and online workshops. So you can be anywhere, and we can do this.

Alex Ferrari 55:40
Awesome, Jeff, man, thank you so much for dropping some beautiful knowledge bombs on the tribe today. I really appreciate it. I hope it inspires some people to ask the deeper questions on there.

Jeff Leisawitz 55:52
Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 55:52
And on their journey.

Jeff Leisawitz 55:53
Thank you. And again, if we can all do this be seen expressed and healed through our creativity, the world will become a better place as well.

Alex Ferrari 56:02
Absolutely, my friend, thank you so much.

Jeff Leisawitz 56:04
Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 56:06
I hope you enjoyed Jeff and I's conversation. I learned a lot from it. And I really want to thank Jeff so much for being on the show and dropping some major knowledge bombs on the tribe. So thank you, Jeff, so much. If you want links to anything we talked about in this episode, head over to indiefilmhustle.com/226 for the show notes there, you'll have links to the book, which I highly recommend you get to small little book, but it is just plumb full of great, great stuff to help you guys on your path. So please check it out. I also want to remind you that Suzanne Lyons, and my indie film producing masterclass is coming out April 9, if you want to get in early, please email [email protected]. And you'll get on a list to get it a little earlier than everybody else. And maybe even a slight discount. And it's going to be $90. And, and for retail, and it's going to stay at that price. We're rarely ever going to have any specials. But if you email now and put yourself on the list, there will be a $15 discount. So please email at [email protected]. And if you guys really want to understand indie film producing from someone who's been doing it for many, many years and has worked with big stars, and done budgets from $50,000 budgets, all the way up to $15 million budgets, understand all the legalities, all the paperwork that you're going to need contracts, all that kind of stuff releases all of that's included in the course that you can download as well. So [email protected] to get in early. And as always keep that also going keep that dream alive. And I'll talk to you soon.

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BPS 139: No Film School Needed – Direct & Sell Six Features in Two Years with Elizabeth Blake-Thomas

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I have an inspirational treat for you today. On the show, we have writer/producer/director Elizabeth Blake-Thomas. She has recently financed, written, directed, and sold six feature films in the past two years, with no professional film school training. Elizabeth has been involved in the creative industries for over 30 years. Studying drama from a young age led her to run theatre schools, train other students and companies and work in various creative industries, culminating in where she is now, a director and writer.

When I heard her story I had to hunt her down and find out how she did it. BTW, she’s not stopping, Elizabeth is currently in prep for three more feature films. Talk about hustle. She is the definition of the phrase “INDIE FILM HUSTLE.”

She is proof that no film school is needed. Enjoy my conversation with Elizabeth Blake-Thomas.

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Alex Ferrari 1:52
Today's guest is Elizabeth Blake Thomas, who is a writer, producer director, who has just directed six feature films in two years. And the kicker is she didn't go to film school. She didn't know anything about the film industry per se. Before she got into it though she had been around the entertainment industry for 30 odd years in plays and working with actors and things like that. But she had never shot a feature film or even a short film. And she just hit the ground running, learn what you need to to learn, and started making movies. And not only did she make movies she had these aren't like movies that she pulled, you know, five bucks out of her pocket to make. She had them financed and sold and continues to make more and more movies. And if that's not enough, she has two or three feature films in prep as we speak that she's going to shoot back to back and we'll get more into that in our conversation. But I really I heard this story. And I reached out to Elizabeth because I was like I got to get her on the show. I got to get this inspirational story to the tribe. Because I want you guys to understand it. You can put obstacles in front of you, you can go out and do it. And it doesn't matter. If you're not educated in filmmaking. You learn along the way, as long as you have the will to learn, you can make it happen. Please enjoy my conversation with Elizabeth Blake Thomas. I'd like to welcome to the show Elizabeth Blake Thomas. Thank you so so much for being on the show.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 3:26
Oh, thank you for having me, Alex. It's an absolute treat to be here.

Alex Ferrari 3:30
Thank you. Thank you. And and if if the tribe if you hear some noise in the background is because Elizabeth is literally hustling on the streets of Hollywood as we speak. So you might hear some things in the background.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 3:43
Do you know what that's that's one of the wonderful aspects of being in this industry, isn't it? We never know where we're going to be. And today I happen to be on the streets hustling.

Alex Ferrari 3:53
Right? And you're going meeting to meeting, jumping, jumping in the meeting. So that's awesome. So I wanted to have you on the show because I read an article about you on stage 32, about how you were able to make six feature films in two years, which is a feat in itself. So that's the reason why I wanted to bring you on the show because I wanted to hear your story. And you have a very unique story and very unique background. So before we get started, first of all, how did you get into the film industry in the first place?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 4:25
Well, I was a theater director back in the UK, I ran my own Theatre Company for about 16 years old. And I love that side of things. I love characters. I love actors, but I'd never considered the film industry, I think, coming from the center of England. theater was something that we all you know, loved. We did it at school. It was something that was obtainable, and you had the West End. Film just didn't register with me until my daughter was nearly five years old and got lead in a TV show. And then she kept being given these wonderful opportunities to be in films, and I would be on set. And I would be naturally immersing myself in this environment. But again, in all honesty didn't didn't register with me that that was possible. And then Isabella, my daughter got off the opportunity to be in LA. And, and I was like, wow, this is Hollywood, this is this is fun for her, again, nothing to do with me, right. And I kept being asked on set to help out, they kept seeing me instruct Isabella or, or kind of have an understanding of what was necessary in a way, you know, producing on a very simple level. And so I thought to myself, this is quite fun. Maybe I should do something for my daughter. So I produced just a short for her. And it went really well. And it was a very good friend of mine. Sean said to me, You should be a film director. And I said, How do you do that? And he said, you just say you all. Okay,

Alex Ferrari 6:09
What a ridiculous What a ridiculous business we are in.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 6:13
But I would like to make sure that there's a caveat of understanding that this wasn't just that I was some random, I don't know, a let's call a swimming pool maintenance person. Never been involved in any form of industry. You know, it was it was a shift, a big shift, but a shift that was within something I understood.

Alex Ferrari 6:35
Right! Exactly. You've been you've been a theater director for a long time. You've you've worked with actors for for most of your career. So you you knew that person. Now all you need to learn was the technical aspects of things, of actually how to work within the media, but film.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 6:50
Absolutely. And and of course, that is never ending. never learn everything. And so that's, I think that's what gave me the courage to do it. Because I thought, well, I don't have to turn up to this job knowing everything. I know what I like, I can use my own insight to what I already know. And if I surround myself with incredible knowledgeable people, then that might work.

Alex Ferrari 7:17
My oh, my God, that's that's, that's actually smart, and intelligent and logical, as opposed to so many first time directors who hire first time, DPS, first time production designers first time grips. Like, you're like, why would you do that? hire people who are smarter than you, and have more experience than you so you can learn from them?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 7:41
Yeah, always, I always surround myself with people that are much, much more intelligent than me.

Alex Ferrari 7:48
And that's, that is a, that is a sign of a good leader, and a good director, people who, who feel more you feel comfortable in your own skin, you don't have to prove yourself. So that's why you're hiring people who know more than you and their departments, so you can learn from them. And that that's why your films come out good.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 8:05
Definitely, definitely. And don't get me wrong. You know, we started with a very basic crew of 10 people, and it grew to 35. So everybody learned along the way, I kind of took everybody under my wing and said, Do you want to join me for this crazy ride?

Alex Ferrari 8:22
I did. No. Speaking of the crazy ride you did you set out to do six features? Or do they just happen to be that you'd made six features in two years?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 8:31
Oh, that's a good question. Again, I was given a great piece of advice that once you shoot your first move straight on to your next one, and it was the best piece of advice I've been given because I'd seen a lot of my friends creating their first film. And then 234 years later, deciding to work on another one. So for me, it was within two months, I thought yeah, absolutely. Let's make another one. So I did. And then from that one, I naturally found an exact producer, he wanted to find the next one. And I said, Okay, well listen, if you're gonna give me that amount, I could make two for it if you give me a bit more, so I made two. And then suddenly I was able to make the next one. And then the next one. And it's a lot of hard work and I I often laugh because I am absolutely exhausted all the time. When I'm on such a high the whole time. Then it kind of you know, outweighs each other.

Alex Ferrari 9:26
Because I know look I've directed a few features myself. I understand the the the the amount of energy it takes to direct a feature film, let alone to prep it, let alone to write it let alone to do the post on it. Are you done with the first film when you're starting? The second Are you still kind of in post

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 9:47
I will say I basically had six babies over two years. That's how it feels. birthing a baby every time. No they they did coincide. Which again is always fun. One of the days we were I was finishing shooting one film. And the next day, I was screening my other two, back to back at an Arc Light. And we were finishing them. I really under some pressure. That's insanity. I know, I know that if you don't make yourself accountable, and yeah, I mean, I do work in extreme conditions. But you know, you make yourself these deadlines and dates, I find that you stick to them.

Alex Ferrari 10:30
Well, yeah, when you have no choice like that absolute choice. I mean, I mean, so how did you finance the first one? And tell me the financing strategy behind all six? Because as I'm sure a lot of people are like, Where does she find the money for these things? And how did that come about?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 10:49
Absolutely. Well, the the kind of, again, the caveat behind all i got six films funded needs to be taken back to, you know, many, many years ago, when I was able to learn the skill of networking, you know, networking being around people being a good person. Because what I didn't realize was, my films were funded from people that I met, just by being a good person, 510 15 years ago, maybe maybe even a wee bit longer, and not knowing that then I didn't even know I was going to end up in the industry. So it's very important. I think that people understand the skills of networking, being a good person, and having a good heart. And that might sound a bit naff, but it's very important that I, I get that across.

Alex Ferrari 11:37
And so then, so those people financially, like you basically went after financing for your first film, and you said, Hey, I'm going to make my first feature film. Can you give me some money to make it to somebody?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 11:47
Well, well, this was a, this was a wonderful lady who actually had been a location for a film that my daughter had been in. And they actually really liked. The people that had this location, really liked my daughter, and myself, and I just stayed in contact with her. And then when I thought I was going to do something with Isabella, I remember she said, If I ever wanted to approach her about something I should, and I did, and I thought I was going to get you know, about $5,000, which for your first film, I was quite excited. And then, and then she actually said, Hold on a minute. Now I want to produce I've got a story to tell, do you want to make this, and here's a lot of money. And, and so I did. So my first film was actually funded brilliantly by this wonderful individual. And I was able to work with my crew for the first time. But the thing that then got me on to that next one, again, was okay, I need to make another film. How do I fund that. And actually, what I did is I approached six friends who all had children, who were all proper actors, and wanted to be in the industry. And I said, if you all give me a myself included, four or 5k age, I can make a feature film. So we put this together. And again, I use the same crew, but I make it a fun experience. So it's an enjoyable thing to be part of. And all the friends and all these wonderful people said, I'll help I'll be in it. I'll be in it. So we shot that film. And from that film, there was someone that said, I believe in what you do and who you are. I'd like to fund a couple more. So again, I said, Okay, well, instead of just funding this one film for X amount, would you put some more into that? And I'll make two and I shot two back to back. Because I just knew that last I had this momentum, you have to keep on going. Yeah. And then that's what happened with the next one and the next one. So it's really about building that momentum. And that's what I do. Now. The minute I have something the minute I'm there, I keep it going. Because you never know when it's going to stop.

Alex Ferrari 13:56
Now, how many days did you shoot like on your first feature?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 14:01
12 days is what I average. But I have given myself 15 days if necessary.

Alex Ferrari 14:07
On a on that second feature that you did when you put you pulled together all that money. You made it for about 30 30,000. Yeah, that was probably only eight or nine days on that one in all honesty. Okay, so but even for 30, even for 30 or 40 grand and that general world, that's still a good amount of time. And how did you do post production? Did you do edit yourself?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 14:30
No. Now I have, again, this wonderful team that have been with me, and they all basically they all believe in me, I seem to have created this wonderful confidence and trust in what I do. So because they'd seen my first film, and this is my second and I said there will be more. Everybody did it almost as a favor. I mean, I still was able to pay them something but I said look by doing this for me. You know, I'm going to give you more work. And I did. And I couldn't have continued to do that. So it's people believing in you. But you know, I always say you can never ask for a favor more than once. And that was my favor, right? No, that was the Come on, guys believe in me, I'm going to make this happen.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
And you can say you cashed in that favor, and then and then followed up with more and more work? And then just build from there?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 15:25
Yes, definitely. And we have this wonderful little team now that I love and adore. And we're very, very much like a family and work hard.

Alex Ferrari 15:34
And you've made six of them. You're already in pre production for the second, the seventh one?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 15:38
Well, I'm in pre production for two, I'm shooting back to back in two weeks time, of course, these of course,

Alex Ferrari 15:44
Why wouldn't you be? Why wouldn't you, you should be shooting right now you should be shooting, right? I'll get my camera out. I could I could be shooting myself doing I mean, seriously, that's the see.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 15:56
I'm letting it down and letting the whole side down. Now those two are very simple features, they are being shot over, you know, five to six days, each one single character. They're very artistic. They're very experimental. I'm working on these two subject matters. One is a death of a child and grief. And the other one is, you're kind of coming of age being a 15 year old teenage story. So those times shooting in the next couple of weeks. And then after that, I'm actually in the scripts development. So they've been all developed so far. So I've got six scripts that I will then shoot over the next. I don't know, what should I give myself?

Alex Ferrari 16:41
I say I say 12. I say 12 to 18 months. I mean, yeah, I mean, you've you've been I've been, you've been a little bit lazy, semi sick. You're sorry. Let's push. So you have a book that came out as well. Yeah. What? I was gonna talk about your book in a little. Okay, so what is your writing process for these for these books? I mean, for these

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 17:06
Very technical, very technical, I write a vomit draft. So again, surrounding myself with excellent people, I seem to have a plethora of ideas. I don't know why. They just come to me titles, concepts, ideas, I will write a vomit draft, which is a very bad version of a screenplay. And then again, I've surrounded myself with excellent screenwriters and support. And I find there are certain certain people that take on those certain scripts. So I have somebody that's currently working on that the family comedies, I have someone that's working on, you know, the, the serious version of something or whatever it is, I have three or four screenwriters that then help and support me?

Alex Ferrari 17:48
That's insane what you've been able to? I mean, it's literally insane. It really, really is. Now, the big question I have for you, distribution plan. It's great to make movies, and we a lot of people can make them, but can you make money? Can you sell them? How are you getting? How are you? Are you? How are you getting your money back? How are you making profit for your investors? And how are you distributing these films?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 18:14
Okay, so I won't be able to mention exact names, of course, but I can give you the, the basic understanding of how I achieved it. Okay, so I, I have a my best friend is head of acquisitions at a very large company. And she gave me advice on the stories pre kind of pre finalized scripts, because to me, it's about saying, hold on a minute, what is the element of this story that is going to be interesting for the the audience, you know, if this isn't for an audience, do I want to make it and of course, that's why I'm making my next two, they're very arty, that, you know, they will get some form of distribution, but not the masses. So I was able to work out. Okay, this is a Christmas script. This is a Halloween story. This is a so in my head, I already had a target audience. Once I've done that, and I've made a script that I believe is suitable to get distributed, I will then find out what those distributions are looking for. Actor wise, you know, obviously, I can't get Angelina Jolie in my films at the moment. But who is it that they like? What are they looking at? So I do quite a bit of research behind my ideas. I might sound like I'm crazy and just do it. But I'm quite business oriented in the, in the kind of the behind the scenes aspect. And so again, once that's sorted, I actually don't think about that, until I have shot the film. I make sure it's the right length. It's got the right characters, I know where it's heading. I will have looked at what other distributors like these kinds of movies.

Alex Ferrari 19:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 20:07
And then I have, I mean, the world nowadays is so different. I don't have expectations on things being able to get out theatrically, unless you have certain elements, you know, that's great. They don't have to be nowadays, right? So if I make my budgets affordable, then the way my, the exact producers or finances get their money back, is because it doesn't take very long for those films to recoup that money, because of all the various platforms. So each film actually is with a different sales agent distributor does nothing, that's the same. And if that my next films, every single one has got a different producer behind them, again, enabling me to have a different market, different target audience.

Alex Ferrari 20:54
And then basically, because you've now proven yourself six times over it's becoming easier.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 21:01
Oh, my gosh, unbelievably. So because you have evidence, you have proof of what you've done proof of concept, proof that you can do it. I'm being asked to direct things now, which is a wonderful position to be in movies. And also I have that belief in myself, I very much believe in earning where you are. And so there is no way that after my first film, I would have been happy going, yes, I know what I'm doing. I needed to earn it. Every single film I've gone through, I've learned through something I've learned through something that's happened, whether that be a good thing or a bad thing. And in fact, I've written everything down because my book that will be out later this year, filmmaking without fear. Why not? is based on these six films, and very, you know, the truth behind them? Because it's not easy. You know, it's not, it's not like I'm going to make a film today. And it just go ahead and do it. You know, it takes so much effort behind the scenes, which a lot of my you know, crew might not see your, you know, other people involved. In fact, it's quite amusing when I get a phone call from a friend of ours I see met at the cinema, like, probably not any good, or they don't think it means that it's worth something. Sure. We have all these platforms now that make everything so much more obtainable for so

Alex Ferrari 22:29
I mean, there's 1000s of movies made a year only, like 50 or 100. Make it to the theater. If that. If that if that. That's insane. So basically, you are the personification of what I preach. You are the personification of indie film, hustle. Without question. I mean, you you basically done everything I preach about you, you, you have a system in place, you start you started on you keep your budgets low, you started smart, you hire people that know more about things that you do. And you start building in a building and you're doing it so fast, that you have to succeed at a certain point. And you know, your marketing, you know, your distribution, you know who you're making it for, you're already speaking to the distributors before you make the movie. You do it everything I've ever preached about on this show. And

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 23:24
I'm so I'm so pleased about that. Also, one other thing that I think is important, I have surrounded my for myself by very supportive people that are in the industry. Again, I've met them organically. I haven't gone out and looked them I've gone to film festivals. When I first started, I had a nonprofit, which enabled me to go to film festivals. And that's where I started to learn everything. And it was after about a year of interviewing these filmmakers that I thought Hmm, I know what they're talking about. I understand this. So that that and that hard work that went into that enabled me to meet these wonderful people who now support me and mentor me and, and I do a lot of mentoring because I believe in giving back and my next two films. I have some incredible, all ages, actually male female people that I mentoring that are shadowing me. And that's really important. Really important to me.

Alex Ferrari 24:18
That's That's amazing. And then again, during all of this time you had time to write a book.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 24:23
I did I did what angles a divorce. Oh, I have to throw that in. Oh, like, top of it all. I will say that first film was one of the hardest, most painful times in my entire life. And I actually think by me working on that film, I got through everything because I could focus on that. It was it was an intense time. It was life changing. And I learned an awful lot about myself.

Alex Ferrari 24:59
Now what What is the biggest lesson you learned shooting six feature films in two years?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 25:04
Oh, good question. Oh, I think the biggest thing I learned, hmm, ah, the biggest thing I learned? Oh, my gosh, that's a really good question. I mean, because every time I did something, I learned something, I think it was definitely, maybe to have the belief in who I am and what I do. Because if you can have that your team respect you and follow you. And I have a very definite way of running my sets. They're very holistic, it's very family oriented. I try to be environmentally friendly. I try to, I think, having set myself the way I do things, and having belief in that. I think that's what what I learned was okay to do. And I'm very happy to say it works. I mean, you know, again, changes can happen. Of course, that belief, I think, and who you are and what you're doing.

Alex Ferrari 26:03
Now, what drives you to hustle as hard as you are, as a very good guy seriously, because people ask me that all the time. But like, why do you do this? I'm like, Yeah, I do it because I have to. I have no other choice.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 26:16
Yeah, I get it, I get it. And everyone's gonna have a different answer. I mean, there's this, there's a deep psychological reason behind it, as well as a much simpler reason. And the the deepest psychological reason is that I feel due to various experiences in my life with various fathers and things that have happened to me and friends, that I needed to prove myself. And that was a, you know, that can be a negative thing if you're doing it for other people. So that was a, I was able to shift that over time to know that I do it for myself. And I like to prove to myself that I say, I'm going to do something, I do it, that I have learned something new. So there's this innate belief system in me that says, if someone says you can't do it, and including, you know, sometimes your own self doubt, makes me want to do it even more. I love this conversation. I love the fact that I can sit here and say, I did that. Everybody said, it wasn't possible. They say, it's not possible to me every single day, I hustle and say, I've got this, I'm going to do that. And someone say, oh, but you haven't I say no, no, but I will have Don't worry about it. And it's that it's that proving to myself,

Alex Ferrari 27:41
You know, it's fascinating, because it's, it's, it's, you know, I haven't met many people like you in the business. Because, because because you remind me a lot of what I do, because I'm crazy like you and doing what we do. And I want to ask you the question, what, because I've had this happen to me so many times with people in the industry, when you tell them you're going to do something that they tell you is impossible. You see the look in their eyes, it's kind of like a glazing over that they cannot comprehend what you're achieving, or what you're doing.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 28:17
Yeah, in fact, somebody last night question the amount that I make a movie for. And of course, I get that. But for me, it's about everybody has their own Hollywood's and so I think people immediately go to a place that they, oh, this can't be made, because I'll be done. Because it needs theatrical release. And because it needs this amount of money. And because you need this star, we all have the ability to make our own Hollywood's, for me the passion every morning is getting up writing, creating, knowing that I'm going to get a group of people together to make something that could maybe make a difference in someone's life. Whether that's even just to make them smile and laugh. It doesn't matter. That's what drives me. And so yes, there's there's definitely a lot of people that look at me and say, well, that's impossible. That's ridiculous. You can't just go to a film festival and meet an investor. And I very much with the belief of the universe and putting things out there. And the minute I verbally say something, yes, and I've put it out there. So it has to happen now, and I but I'm not someone that says things that aren't going to happen. Right, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 29:25
Like I'm going to go win an Oscar, which is a horrible, horrible goal to go.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 29:32
Well, I think if that's your only goal, then you've lost the reason to do it. Christ would like to have the highest accolade possible for the accolade but more because I've made something that has really affected millions million people, millions of people exactly. So that's why I'd like it's just the posh Film Festival, but it's it happens to be the most famous film festival in the world. You know that that's if that's a goal again, it's why Are you aiming for this, we have to have the right reasons for why we're aiming for doing what we're doing. And I think that's why I've been able to do what I've done. Because my sincerity behind it and my belief system behind it, and the way I'm doing it is so far so good.

Alex Ferrari 30:17
I think that one of the reasons for your success is that you're one of the, you're something that is very rare in this town, you're genuine. Oh, you're genuine, like that. But you can hear it in your I've, we've never met in person, but I could hear it in your voice. I could hear it in the passion behind it. And it's real. And then you know, as well as I do in this town, that is rare. You do not meet people who are genuine. And then when people do meet people who are genuine, honest, real, coming from a good place with good intentions, they want to help you because hopefully, I feel that at least in this in this business. There are good people who really do want to do good work and help people. And you attract those people to you by the energy you put out.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 31:03
Yes, yeah, I agree. And that energy is huge. Because I someone said to me, I think again, yesterday or the day before, they said, Gosh, you're on you're very happy person. Because even if I'm not feeling happy, or something's not good, I will always default to that feeling and that emotion, because that is what I'm very privileged. I've worked my way to get here, but I am hustling the streets of Hollywood making films. I remember actually going to a festival and someone said to me, so what do you what do you do? And I said, Well, I'm a director. No, but what do you actually do it? No, no, I'm a director. So I feel very privileged. I'm allowed to say that and be that right?

Alex Ferrari 31:46
Look at this. Exactly. You're not a director who does Uber on the side, you're

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 31:51
I fell very lucky. But I will say again, I make that happen. I'm very frugal. You know, I don't live a lifestyle that maybe other people would like to live if they earn that money. I'm very savvy with it. I think okay, I need to put this into the next project. How am I gonna make this work? And you know, we all have different ways of living and doing things and this happens to suit me again, it would not suit everybody at all.

Alex Ferrari 32:21
We got to you got to find what works for you. And and again, a lot of people want to fit the Hollywood system of movies, or the this kind of directors way of making movies or this kind of directors way of making movies, the all the very successful directors who are in our world in the indie world. They find a way to make movies the way that they can make them and make them happy doing so. Like the duplass brothers like Joe Swanberg like Lynn Shelton, like Kevin Smith or Richard Linklater, or these guys are Robert Rodriguez, these they found their way of making it and they're not trying to insert the Hollywood system because if you talk to someone in the Hollywood system, you're a lunatic. You're You're a lunatic, I'm a lunatic where you're crazy, like, make a movie for five grand, it's gonna look like something you shot on a home video, but they can't grasp the concept that like no, you can make a movie for a certain a certain budget if you know what you're doing. And you can tell a story at the end of the day.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 33:22
Yes. And that's what it's about, isn't it? It's about telling a good story. We all know that. We all know that. That's what makes a film. Because even those massive budgets if they've not got a good story, no one sits there goes. Yeah, but the camera was excellent. Wasn't it? Or the quality of the lighting works. You know?

Alex Ferrari 33:41
The CG was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Basically is imperative. Absolutely as as the almost the entire DC Universe that's proven. I will I will only one of them is good. And other than the Batman movies, original Batman movies that Nolan and Wonder Woman Other than that, just horrible. Anyway, alright, so I'm going to give you I'm gonna ask you a few questions to ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 34:16
So and they haven't done anything, this is something that they'd like to do. Okay, I would, first of all, do as much research as possible. And that means going to film festivals going to the markets, finding out about the you know, the behind the scenes of filmmaking, because I think that's quite hidden. And, and for you to interview and ask and talk and research for as much information as you can on what it is that the filmmaking is not not about the cameras or the equipment or the styles, none of that yet it's the background information behind I you know, what, what a film needs to have what film is about because I went to the Cannes Film market for you know, many moons ago with my daughter actually had a film there. And I'll never forget that day of walking into the marketplace and going, Oh my god, there's a film with Sharon Stone in and that can't sell. Like what? Yep. So having that expectation and realization of what it really is about, that's what I would do first.

Alex Ferrari 35:24
Okay, now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 35:32
Oh, gosh, um, I think actually, nothing to do with film or drama. I'd say a lot of the Malcolm Gladwell books, okay. You know, I love the way that you have to have had 10,000 hours before you become an expert. I love the fact that it's all about who you surround yourself with. Yeah, I'd say the Malcolm Gladwell any of his. And actually, I also do like he's called Ken, and wrote a book about education. Because the whole point I'm going to I think it's Ken Livingstone, but that's, I think, also might be my ex, Mayor of London. I don't know. Anyway, he wrote a book about how education has an impact. So for me, that actually helped me bring up my daughter. And I did things I do things very differently. She writes screenplays with me, we have mother and daughter entertainment together. We she's only 15 and a half. And to me, it was about creating something bigger than the norm, what everybody does, and going to school. So I think Malcolm Gladwell and can something or other. I'll remember it. We'll put it on your blog.

Alex Ferrari 36:44
Yeah, we'll put it on. We'll put it on the in the show notes. Now, what lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? You've got good question. I wish you'd send them to me. I don't I don't often I don't often I

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 37:03
I know. Okay, a lesson a lesson. Well, I have to say, I am always learning. And I would say that even yesterday and the day before. And today, I've learned a new lesson. One of the most recent ones was about my words, actually really thinking about how a word has an impact on somebody that's in life as well as on a script. And that's, I think that's quite a good lesson. I wish I'd learned maybe 30 years ago.

Alex Ferrari 37:35
Yeah. Now what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 37:40
Oh, are you getting to laugh?

Alex Ferrari 37:43
No, go for it.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 37:44
So okay, so Gone with the Wind.

Alex Ferrari 37:46
Okay, cool.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 37:47
Okay, um, probably, it's difficult one between sound and music, Mary Poppins, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, but I like all of them.

Alex Ferrari 37:55
Why does all of those Make sense? I have no idea.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 37:59
They are wonderful. And then I would also say, Hmm, I probably like Midnight in Paris.

Alex Ferrari 38:08
It is a good movie. I'd love

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 38:10
to you know, because I just love that era. And then I know you said only three. But I do like all the old Gerard Depardieu movies. They really affected me growing up, man on the sauce and 200 about jack and yes, I loved those.

Alex Ferrari 38:25
Awesome. Awesome. Now, Elizabeth, where can people find you online?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 38:30
Online? I was gonna say in Hollywood.

Alex Ferrari 38:33
Where are you right now?

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 38:37
Sunset Boulevard. Exactly. Well, I am I have an Instagram at Elizabeth_B_T. I have a Facebook, Elizabeth Blake Thomas. My website, ElizabethBlakeThomas.com, mother and daughter entertainment. And all my details are are there as well.

Alex Ferrari 38:55
Fantastic. And I'll put all those links in the show notes. Elizabeth, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, you are an inspiration. Hopefully you've given a lot of inspiration to the tribe, to prove that you can do it and not to be afraid of doing it.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 39:11
Well, I'm very, very grateful that you invited me on I really, really am. And thank you. And if anybody ever needs any help, they can just contact me. I'm always available.

Alex Ferrari 39:20
Be careful what you wish for.

Elizabeth Blake Thomas 39:23
Thanks, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 39:26
I like to first thank Elizabeth for literally doing the podcast on the streets of Hollywood while she's hustling between meetings. That is what I call an indie film hustler. So thank you so so much, Elizabeth, for not sharing not only sharing your story, but sharing the inspiration that anyone can go out there and do it. If you're willing to put in the work and educate yourself. Surround yourself with good people. You can make it happen. Every single filmmaker, even the biggest ones in the world. All started out just like you and me. With a small indie film, small project and got their feet wet, so don't put obstacles in front of yourself. As a famous quote says, if you don't have the best of everything, you need to make the best of everything. Never give up. Never surrender, just keep on hustling. I'd also like to thank our new sponsor streamlet comm now if you're selling your film on amazon prime and noticing that you're not getting a whole lot of cash for nowadays, think about also putting it on streamlet. It is a SVOD platform, a subscription based platform where your movie will not be buried. It's free to submit and has a royalty rate three times as much as Amazon, so you get to keep all the rights. So if you want to submit your film today, go to streamlette.com. That's streamlette.com and I'll leave a link to it in the show notes. And those show notes our indiefilmhustle.com/253 for links to Elizabeth and everything we talked about in this episode. And as always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon.

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BPS 138: How To Write a Blockbuster Film Career with Chris Sparling

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It’s always way fun to have a guest who is also a fan of the show. This week’s guest is definitely a member of the tribe. We chatted up pre-interview about some of his favorite IFH podcast episodes like Ed Burns and Joe Carnahan and I knew front hen on we were on for a treat. My guest today is award-winning writer, director, and producer, Chris Sparling.

Chris has written some of Hollywood’s most original and fascinating screenplays like Buried, Greenland, Mercy, Down A Dark Hall, Reincarnate (featuring Leonardo DiCaprio), The Sea of Trees with Matthew McConaughey, etc.

One of his latest films, Greenland, which premiered in 2020 started streaming on Amazon prime this February

The disaster thriller film starring Gerard Butler and Morena Baccarin follows a family who must fight for survival as planet-destroying comet races to Earth. Butler’s family struggles for survival in the face of a cataclysmic natural disaster as the planet-killing comet races to Earth. John Garrity (Gerard Butler), his estranged wife Allison (Morena Baccarin), and young son Nathan make a perilous journey to their only hope for sanctuary.

Amid terrifying news accounts of cities around the world being leveled by the comet’s fragments, the Garrity’s experience the best and worst in humanity while they battle the increasing panic and lawlessness surrounding them. As the countdown to global apocalypse approaches zero, their incredible trek culminates in a desperate and last-minute flight to a possible safe haven.

With its reception and regardless of the COVID 19 Pandemic, the film grossed $52.3 million at the Box Office and was announced that the sequel, Greenland: Migration is already in the works. The continuation of the story will center around the Garritys’ journey across a frozen European wasteland to find a new home. STX has already acquired the worldwide distribution rights for the film at the 2021 Cannes Film Festival for the sequel with a $65 million budget.

Chris’s path to becoming a renowned Hollywood blockbuster writer begun on the actor’s path. He was inspired to take up writing after the 1997 hit psychological drama film, Goodwill Hunting which was directed by Gus Van Sant and starred Robin Williams, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, and others.

He left Los Angeles on a home (Rhodes Island) bound to recalibrate and focus on completing college and writing because it was a challenge juggling that and acting auditions. After completing college, Sparling returned to Los Angeles. With no connections or leads, he returned to Rhodes Island with the plan to make a movie of one of the many scripts he had written by then. Though he had no formal film production experience at this point, Sparling wrote, directed, and produced An Uzi at the Alamo which is about a young writer in search of his identity, pledges to his dysfunctional family that he will commit suicide on his 25th birthday. As the fateful day approaches, he stumbles upon love and a new sense of self. Fearing family humiliation if he backs out of his pledge, he prepares for his last birthday with the feigned support of his family.

Of course, the film did not do well, but this is when things became interesting for Chris’s writing career. He dusted up and sent out about one hundred specs to studios, managers, producers, literally anyone he could contact. He received back, only three responses and one of which was from a manager who became his manager and still is till this day. That was his first open door.

When I saw the trailer for Chris’s 2010 film, Buried, and the success of it, as an independent filmmaker, I was in awe and slightly jealous of how easy (cost, and production-wise), revolutionary the film is. Buried is a brilliantly twisted suspense and original screenplay that is a nightmare for claustrophobes. 

Sparling found mainstream success when his feature-length screenplay Buried was purchased by producer Peter Safran starring Ryan Reynolds.

Ryan plays Paul, an Iraq-based American civilian truck drive. After an attack by a group of Iraqis, he Wakes up groggy in pitch darkness, to find he is buried alive inside a coffin. With only a lighter, flask, flashlight, knife, glowsticks, pen, pencil, and a mobile phone.

It’s a race against time to escape this claustrophobic death trap. He is left to rely on his cell phone to contact the outside world. But the outside world proves not to be very helpful at finding a man buried in a box in the middle of the Iraqi desert. Paul must rely on his best resource–himself.

The film premiered at the 2010 Sundance Film Festival and was sold to Lionsgate Films. Buried was shown at several major European and North American film festivals. It was nominated for and won a plethora of European films awards because it was produced in Barcelona by Barcelona-based Versus Entertainment, in association with The Safran Company and Dark Trick Films.

Some of the awards included the Goya Award, for Best Original Screenplay, a Gaudi Award in the same category, and the best European feature film of the year award at the Strasbourg European Fantastic Film Festival in September 2010. This $2 million budget indie film made a gross splash of $21.3 million worldwide. 

Sparling had an immediate success from Buried; between the script going out in March of 2009 and the movie premiering at Sundance in 2010, and he suddenly needed an agent, an attorney, and everything legit in between. 

Intrusion, Sparling’s latest film will be streaming on Netflix in just one week (September 22, 2021), starring Freida Pinto and Logan Marshall-Green. 

It is about a husband and wife who move to a small town. A deadly home invasion leaves the wife traumatized and suspicious that those around her might not be who they seem. Even though it was self-defense, it was still a homicide. However, it turns out that the home invasion was not a one-off, and there are many other missing person cases in which the invaders may be involved. Meera falls into a rabbit hole as she takes it upon herself to find out the truth.

Enjoy my entertaining conversation with Chris Sparling.

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

  • Chris Sparling – IMDB
  • Watch: Buried – Amazon
  • Watch: The Sea Of Trees – Amazon

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Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome to the show Chris Sparling, man. How you doing, Chris?

Chris Sparling 0:15
I'm good. I'm good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:16
Good, man. Good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I appreciate you reaching out and wanting to come on the show that you you've been listening to the show a bit and been our fan and you heard a couple of your friends on the show. You're like, hey, I want to jump in on this action.

Chris Sparling 0:31
Yeah, yeah, I heard I heard Eddie Burns on and he was talking about him and Aaron Lubin who I know. And I was like, man, it sounds fun. I want to do this. And so yeah, you're right.

Alex Ferrari 0:42
Yeah. And we were talking about one of one of your favorite episodes, Joe Carnahan, who's a friend friend of the show, and one of the easily one of the most entertaining episodes I've ever had.

Chris Sparling 0:53
Without question, well, it's easy. I don't I don't know Joe is easily one of the most entertaining episodes I listened to for sure. That guy was like, I'm like, that guy's fucking cool, man. I don't meet that guy.

Alex Ferrari 1:02
Joe is arguably one of the coolest filmmakers I know and I've ever met. He is he is definitely a force of nature without question. Now, before we jump in, man, how did you get started in the business?

Chris Sparling 1:14
So my thing was, I started as an actor, like eons ago by this point. And so I did the struggling actor thing and, and I was gonna stay in Rhode Island. That's where I'm from in LA for a couple years. And I mean, that's a tough, tough racket, man. I don't I mean, a lot of credit, people do that and stick to it long term. I did it for about two years. And it was during that time that goodwill hunting came up. And so between like anyone honestly talking about it like that, I think macmullan had come out a few years prior and everything. So it's like, between that, and then Good Will Hunting come out came out. It was like the worst thing in the world. And best thing in the world that could have happened to an actor, because all of us started to think we could write our own shit. And so, you know, thinking would be that easy. Okay, so that's what I did. I started writing when I was, you know, as trying to go on auditions and etc, etc. And so after about two years, I headed back home to to Rhode Island, which is where I was from, because I had left I would not tell us, I was really fucking young. I was like, 20 years old. So I left college midway through, to do this to chase the dream, as it were. And I was kind of, like, Man, I'm doing too much. Like I was taking acting classes I was working. I was, I was taking school classes, you know, and doing all these things. I'm like, I'm not really excelling at any of these things. Because I'm doing all of them. Let me just focus on getting school done at least, kind of recalibrate, regroup, see where I'm at, you know, with the plan of going back to LA, which is exactly what I did. So I went back to the east coast, finished my degree, and then spent the summer here, then drove cross country back to to LA and arrived the night before September 11. So, yeah, so I mean, it was like, as you probably remember, I mean, you know, as it pertains to our business, here, we're not doing for like months and months. Because this is the part I think a lot of people forget about that time is that's also when the anthrax scare happened. It was right in that same window. So it's not like now where I would imagine everything is you know, it is everything's digital, you know, just you've had shots or whatever else all gets all reels or all digit back, then you were sending a hard copy headshots. And during the anthrax scare, no one was opening mail, because they were afraid to. So I mean, if that's the way you get auditions is you know, by your headshot resume going out and no one's open. So I was like, I'm doing nothing out here. So four months passed. And I was like this, this ain't it. This is I just felt completely had no control no agency in my own life. So I'd started by that point, I'd written more. I was like, You know what, I'm going to move home. I'm going to write a movie that I'm going to direct produce star in. I've no idea how to do any of those things, really. But even with the only way I can see this working, and that's what and that's what I did. Frankly, that's that's what happened.

Alex Ferrari 4:18
And that movie was the is that the one that Uzi at the Alamo? Yeah,

Chris Sparling 4:22
yeah. Which is a total fucking shit show. It's like, I mean, it's, it's like looking back to your high school. Like ninth grade High School picture and going cheese. I thought I was alright looking. I was like, No, you are not. You are not at all good looking.

Alex Ferrari 4:40
You know, listen, I have to interrupt for a second on the side. But I just went back to visit my mom and then in my mom's house. As my high school picture in a giant frame in the front, circa 1992 blue like glamorous Shot picture like your blue like stripes in the neon stripes in the back and you had the whole Oh my God, my daughters are like, Daddy, what? What is it? Man? I have no idea you know, right? The cavalry cheese all day all day. Every guard Absolutely.

Chris Sparling 5:24
So anyway, that movie, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna add context in just a second. But I mean I had never made a movie I had no business making a movie. I barely I didn't even know how to write a movie. Honestly, I at least written at least one or two screenplays by that point. But I still didn't know what the hell I was doing. And it's a mini miracle the movie even got finished. It really is. And so that's why I'm saying on add some context. So I imagine you and I are roughly the same age. So like you and I kind of straddle the analog and digital world. We were there when it all started to change. Right. So this was at a time when the digital world started to kind of become a thing. But it still was expensive to make a movie. You know what I mean? It wasn't expensive. Maybe it was to shoot on on film. But it still was expensive. Oh, right. And so I think I made that movie all in for like, $20,000 which, nowadays, if you say that to someone, they're like, $20,000 that you made this free piece of shit for $20,000? Like, what? Just you, that's all you can do.

Alex Ferrari 6:34
And when did you shoot out

Chris Sparling 6:35
on the GTX? 100? So dv x what was the 100?

Alex Ferrari 6:38
Acer or the 100? Because obviously there's a difference. You know,

Chris Sparling 6:42
it wasn't in the a it was the GTX 100

Alex Ferrari 6:44
all you got the first gen you got the first gen I got my. Yeah, my first film was on the 180. Which, by the way, arguably best little independent film camera ever. It was. It was gorgeous looking. Yeah, it was the first 24 P. And of course, and when we saw we're like this is looks just like film.

Chris Sparling 7:02
No, it looks like a movie is amazing, right? But it still wasn't cheap.

Alex Ferrari 7:08
It was not it was not.

Chris Sparling 7:10
So it took me about two and a half years to finish the movie, because I shot it in about two weeks. Again, I had no business making a movie. I mean, I'm I don't know how people just didn't leave. organized, it was organized enough to happen, right? And I obviously were treated well. And people were paid a little amount of money. But I mean to ask people to show up day after day. And these are again, I'm shooting this in Rhode Island. The people that are actors, but they're not. They're not full time actors. They are people that maybe do like community theater, or this this is like kind of a hobby or maybe a little more than that for them. Anyway, it it's a fucking shit show. But I love it for what it was at the time. I would not have a career had I not done it.

Alex Ferrari 8:00
Right? What how so what did that do for your career? Because as you're just saying, it's like, it's I can't believe anyone even looked at that thing. What did that do for your career as a writer and and or director.

Chris Sparling 8:12
So it was, again, going back to the time it was, you know, back in the day, it was like, Well, if you had if you wanted to contact anyone who's like the Hollywood representation directory, big book, you know, just scouring those books, trying to find representation, trying to find basically just querying everyone under the sun that I think is right for this, say, will you watch my movie? That's, that's really what I was doing. And I guess the benefit of the time was that unlike now, because it's so easy to create content, the barriers of entry are basically gone. There wasn't as much content. So to reach out to someone, if you had a film that actually was meant something.

Alex Ferrari 8:50
It's like I've been saying to people a long time, like in the 80s All you had to do was finish a movie and it was sold, it was sold. And you made money the Toxic Avenger got made during that time. I mean, it just it was theatrically run, there's the 90s was a watered down version of that. Now, the the waiter or the Uber driver has a feature.

Chris Sparling 9:10
Right? No, so true, but it and so, you know, I don't know how many queries I sent out. Maybe 100. I have no idea. But I think I heard back from maybe like five people that said, Yeah, sure. Send me your movie. And of course, in the meantime is doing trying to get in this festival. But of the five I heard back from maybe three and of the three I think two said they liked it and all the two. One said it was a manager and he said he goes I liked it man. I laughed out loud. And then the word you always want to hear it what else you're working there right and so that was it. I mean, I was a kid from Rhode Island man. I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anyone in business. I didn't have any connections. So, so that was my first open door. And it was like that's it. I'm fucking going that's it. I'm this door which will open the door. Excellent. And now just fast forward. That's my manager. He's my manager still, to this day still.

Alex Ferrari 10:06
That's awesome. That's great. All right, so then, you made you wrote a film in 2000. We came out in 2010, called buried. Now, I was telling you before we can afford, it's like when I saw that trailer, and saw the success of that film, and everything. As an independent filmmaker, I was like, God dammit, why didn't I think of that? That's like, the easiest, cheapest thing you could shoot like, it's a dude in a box. Oh, my God, why didn't I think about? And it was it was, I mean, it was kind of revolutionary when it came out, especially for for Indian, and that you got Ryan Reynolds and all that stuff. But how did you come up with an original concept of yours?

Chris Sparling 10:50
Yeah. So that was a basically, the lesson learned from that feature that I make Where's. So I made that and that movie had all these locations of all these actors. And it's like, things you don't I didn't know, man, I didn't know like that stuff. Like, I shouldn't be doing that on the budget and all the time for all that stuff. I just didn't know any better. And like I said, thankfully, no one just left the project, which could have happened. But anyway, so this time around, I'd made a shorter to be in between. And I mean, I think it's worth pointing out I didn't go to film school. So I had, like, I had no other practical knowledge of how to do this. But the thing I learned from making that first feature was like, Man, this time around, I can't do it that way. Like, I can't have all these locations. I can't have all these actors because a that shit cost so much money and time. And and on top of that, it's like, again, I could run the risk of people just not showing up for work. So I was like, Alright, well, I have about at this point, I was working like a regular job again. And I'm like, I have like five grand that I can save. What movie Can I make for five grand? That's it. And I made the conscious decision by that point, Paranormal Activity come out. You know, I toyed for a minute about like, well, the found footage thing seems like that's an affordable way to make a movie. As I don't really think I want to do that right now. And so then it just really became what movie Can you make for five grand, so naturally, it gets smaller and smaller, and literally, your people. And I was like, I was left with a guy in a box on the phone. And I was like, fucking man, if I need to do half of the voices that on the phone, I'll do half of the voices. And then who was going to start it? I don't know. You know, here's something that I'm talking about buried is at one point. So like, this is like very early on. You know, I've written a script, and I'm thinking I'm gonna shoot it in my apartment for five grand. And I'm like, Well, I want to try at least to get some food and some semblance of a name. Right? In this movie. I'll try. I don't know if it'll work. And I was thinking like, I was actually thinking like, maybe like, thinking about the some dude from days of our lives. The guy that plays bow, I don't know why. Maybe I can get him I mean, not to not like, disparage him as if he's like, I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel but I'm thinking like, I'm not gonna get a movie star there's we're just gonna face a face somebody Yes. Somebody right, just to kind of just add some sort of credibility to me, I'm a nobody, you don't mind. And, and long story short, so I talked earlier about how my other thing opened the door with that manager. And kind of what happened in the time in between is after that, I send them an I'd write a new script, I would send it to him. He would like it, but wouldn't set the world on fire for him. So he'd be like, well, I liked it. But let's keep talking. And that went on for like, three, three and a half years, Alex, where you know, and I made it made a couple more smaller contacts and then contacts in the meantime. So hustling, hustling, hustling. And so finally, it's like six months into pre production, or at least me figuring out how I'm gonna make my $5,000 version of buried in my apartment. And, and I didn't send him this script is the only script I'd never sent it. Because my thinking is, he's like this big Hollywood manager, like, why is he gonna? Why is he gonna care about my guy in a box won't be like, I don't want to risk destroying the relationship. I've now spent three years cultivating right? And you do these things. We've all been there Everyone listen to you. Like, it's like, that's been part of the struggle. You're questioning every move, like yanking everything cuz you think Oh, is this gonna be the landmine I step in? Oh, I don't know if I should do that. Right. And it's just it's, it's such an excruciating process. But anyway, one night, I was caught, like, it was like the Jerry Maguire moment where I was looking at my career. You know, I was like, What is going on? Is this ever going to happen? Is this movie gonna happen? Is my career gonna happen? And I was like, You know what, fuck it. I'm gonna send it to him. And I did. And he flipped for it. He's like, Oh, my God. Like this script is amazing, dude, like, what are you doing? What are your plans like? What my Mine was to make it. And these are our that's cool. He's like, what? I think this can be a spec that we can go around would you be? Would you be willing long short, would you be willing to step back from directing it? If we can go out with it as a spec? And macro? I was like, Yeah, man. I'm just trying to break into the business any way I can. So long story short, that's what we went out with it. And this is this is the crazy thing. So I went from being I'm sorry for being so long winded. You know, I went from being a guy from Rhode Island that had no contacts that was you know, banging his head hustling, trying, trying trying for years, maybe little progress. That script went out. I remember correctly. It was like march of 2009. The movie was in Sundance. 2010

Alex Ferrari 15:47
Yeah, I know. That's insanely fast. Yes. So Alright, so you went out and didn't get Did you get the director attached? First? Did you get a producer attached first.

Chris Sparling 15:58
So it all came like I mean, it's crazy. Like that's why I drive home the point that it was like almost like a just an overnight sort of flip where I went from being someone who tried for years to get representation tried all the different things that we do, to all of a sudden now I have a manager who gets me an agent, UTA, who gets me a high powered attorney. But the overnight success, if you want to call it that was like it, like they say is like 10 years in the making,

Alex Ferrari 16:24
right? But he's like, boom, boom, and all of a sudden, there was a switch and, and that's what the power of good content will do a good piece of material. We'll, we'll do that for you. So it goes out. You get a producer you get until At what point did Ryan Reynolds get involved cuz Ryan Reynolds was yet I mean, he was Ryan, he was a star, but he wasn't Ryan Reynolds. Yeah, he's not dead. He's definitely not Deadpool, Ryan Reynolds.

Chris Sparling 16:44
No, no, no, he his big thing. At that point, he had done the proposal when he said that it really kind of elevated him, right. And I remembered so I again, I didn't go to film school, my I my degrees in criminal justice. So I at the time, I was working, doing fraud investigation, which is a boring fucking job, it sounds. And so I remember like, by this point, I had my team around me, I knew we were you know, things were happening with my career for the first time, but you know, it, that's also a weird phase to be in your career where it's like things change, but yet they have changed, because it seems like something's gonna happen. But you're, you're still, I'm still working a regular job. And I remember I was doing a case. And I'm in my car, like you spent a lot of your time in your car and that you're watching. It's a boring job. Anyway, long story short, this is before cell phones, smartphones. So I have my I have my laptop, and I'm picking up a Wi Fi signal from some random person's house, whatever, I'm just using their Wi Fi. And I remember getting an email with a link to a variety article saying that Ryan Reynolds was on the project that he had signed on to the project. And I was like, holy shit, I'm like, This is crazy. And I remember like, the next day or so. And here's a little cautionary tale is that I remember, I put in my two weeks notice, because I'm like, I made it. I made it. I made it. Right. And thank God and like, if they got it actually happened, because it's I was so green at the time. Like, I didn't realize how many 1000s of things could have gone wrong. At that point for not to happen. I think God,

Alex Ferrari 18:19
that's, that's that's to say, I mean, I feel you because when I was coming up as well, I would have a meeting with a star for a project that was trying to get off the ground. And then I'm like, I had to go back and you know, doing my day job. And just like, there's such a disc, there's such a weird disconnect. Like, you're talking to a producer, you're flying out to LA or doing something and then you get back home and you're just like, oh my god, how am I gonna pay the rent this week? Like

Chris Sparling 18:46
that weird Limbo phase? You're still in it? He's like, you feel like, Oh, right, I finally broke in. But your life hasn't changed at all. Good. It was like that in that sort of limbo phase until the movie finally got made. And thankfully, happened fast.

Alex Ferrari 19:03
And the thing is, I've had I've had guests on the show, too, that they'd like literally, their movie was, like just released and they're still in their day job like the money has kicked in yet. Like, haven't really, you know, hasn't really started yet. But, but I do remember that when Barry came out it was kind of like an indie film. Like a little indie film phenomenon because of the writing the directing. The director did a fantastic job because how many how can you make a box interesting visually like at a certain point? He did it was it was brilliantly shot. But the story did you conceive it always as a real time movie? Like 90 minutes? Yeah.

Chris Sparling 19:44
Yeah, yeah. never leaving the box. I mean, again, but that was born out of and I always wish I had a cooler answer. People ask me a lot. Like why did you make this move? Why'd you write it this way? Because I couldn't afford to get them out of the box. Getting out of the box is expensive. Like then you have to see the desert and all this other stuff. Like, I can't afford that. So, you know, it's one of those cases where, you know, where you you have, again, I was going to direct a movie. So I vision for what this movie was going to be. And Rodrigo Cortez came in and just I was like, holy shit. Like, I would have made a decent movie out of this, I think because it does a pretty cool idea. But I'm like, he made it into something truly cinematic. And it was just like, wow, I was also as blown away as everyone

Alex Ferrari 20:26
else was thought. And that movie, and then it did did gangbusters at the box office. For the budget that it had. It was it was a really, really well received.

Chris Sparling 20:35
International Yes, it didn't, it didn't get a big release here in the US but internationally made like 20 million off like a $3 million budget.

Alex Ferrari 20:41
Wow, that's crazy. And then just continue to grow Ryan, Ryan's ya know, profile up more and more. So let me ask you that after after buried. I always love asking because you have a hit now under your belt now Now you've got a bonafide hit and you're the writer of it. And there wasn't to my understanding, there wasn't like four other 15 other writers on it that tweaked it and script doctor did or anything like that. Right. So. So the town knows that you? It's not you know, it's not a script doctor or anything like that. That's come in. How does the town treat you? What's the next step? Do you do do the water bottle tour? Like what happened?

Chris Sparling 21:18
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was happening. Again, it's been a long time now. But that was happening before the movie even came up. That stuff was and that was that Limbo phase again, where it's like, Yeah, right. You're like going to these meetings and meeting all these people, as producers and at the studios, and then you're like, let's go back to your normal life at home. So that stuff was happening prior to. And then after you get on, you know, the lists, everybody you know, the list you want to beyond and kind of like the incoming call business, which is great. And that was the case for a while. And so yeah, I mean, that's, that's the nature of I think that's what, you know, that's I think you learn with your maturity and just doing this for now. I've been doing this for over 12 years, I think professionally, and it's like, you learn how like people are the toast of the town, and they're the new hot, cool thing. And then it's somebody else's turn. And then maybe you it's your turn again, down the line. But in a weird way, Alex, it's the kind of thing like if I had found success, when I first started out doing this, like all of this, it may sound cliche to say, but I think it is true. It's like I don't know if I would have been mature enough to handle it. Because especially when I wasn't the flavor of the moment anymore, because it is a very fleeting moment. We're kind of within like, Oh, well, I was like, You guys made me think I was like, cool. And I was the shit. And all of a sudden I'm like, you know, come that doesn't feel like as much anymore. And, you know, I think I was settled enough in my normal life. And sure enough, those older to be like, I'm just gonna keep working. You know, I'm just gonna keep hustling and working, that's not going to change and then come with me.

Alex Ferrari 22:49
Yeah, like, like, I had Troy Duffy on the show who's obviously infamous for boondock saints. And he had all that success at the beginning of his career. And I told him straight up like, man, I don't know if I would have made a whole lot of maybe slightly different decisions than you would have made during that time. But I imagine if you had that kind of success at 2425 you'd self implode? Yeah, you'd self implode, it's it takes a strong, mature 25 year old not that there isn't any obviously. But I wasn't that guy that's for damn sure i would i would have been eaten alive myself.

Chris Sparling 23:25
Yeah, I'm sure I would have to that the fall would have was what would have hurt me because I was used to the client, like, like the trying to climb better, you know that pushing the boulder up the hill as it were like, I was used to that, and I was fine with that. But when all of a sudden you get to the party, you know? And then like, oh, what happened? You know that like that would have been tough to kind of deal with as a younger guy.

Alex Ferrari 23:49
Yeah, and there's a lot of screenwriters and filmmakers coming up, they don't understand that they if they're lucky enough to get that moment. And it doesn't have to be huge. You don't have to be like blown away at your paranormal activity. You can have slight smaller victories get into Sundance or, or you know, something along those lines that you get a little bit of attention on you. That moment is very quick, especially in today's world. I mean, it was a little longer when you happen like you know, 12 years ago that window was open a little longer because there was less competition and the world was a lot different right out now. It's your it's so short and if you don't hit when that door is open when you if you don't crash in with something. Did you have other scripts? Is that the I mean, obviously had other scripts ready, right or? No?

Chris Sparling 24:33
Yeah, I did it. I mean, my next movie, the one that came on after the one I did is called ATM which did not turn out well. I mean, it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't reviewed. Well, it was it came together fast to kind of came together in the course of kind of a follow up to bury another contained little movie. And, you know, you kind of you know hindsight being what it is you look back and say I probably should have waited instead of rushing into my sophomore effort as it were. I should have waited too. To do something a little stronger, I guess, you know, because after that, that I saw the kind of the fall off. That movie was like, all of a sudden the poster said from the writer of barity. So it was like, Whoa, like, this means it's, it's, you know, there's value there, then all of a sudden that movie didn't do well. That means like, it was, it was me that really took the hit. You know, I feel and, and I blame myself. I mean, the script I thought was okay, it was good. But again, it was, you have like this, this energy because you finally get there and you want to, you know, you want to like keep it going, because you worked so hard to get there everything else. But then, you know, after that, though, but what you realize too is the work matters, like the struggle matters. It does. Because you I always look at it this way. I don't know how you feel I was looking at as I started off with nobody in this industry, right? Like a lot of people I'm not unique in that way. It's like a lot of people. And even even up till now frankly, we're on like women now I know. Like I've been doing this for 12 years. I know all these friggin people, like why am I going to stop stop working as hard? It's like, No, I'm gonna work just as hard if not harder, because now I have more like all the sources world like I can. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's that's kind of what happened after I think my second old ATM where it's kind of like, the phone stopped ringing as much, you know, and it was like, what's going on, dude, like, What is going on? I'm not the belle of the ball anymore. And it had the struggle, I feel like the culmination of all those years are what made me realize, Oh, dude, you have to fucking get back to work, you have to create more content, you have to make turn this around. And, and frankly, it was I had now done two of these very, very small contain movies, I was like, I at least need to think bigger, I need to change the industry's perception of me. And that's what led me to write the sea of trees prize like, this is going to be you know, because no one's gonna do it for me. You know, I I've got a I've got to change the narrative here.

Alex Ferrari 27:06
Yeah, and that, and that's the thing. It's a lot of writers and filmmakers coming up don't understand that, that that Hollywood is they love to put people in boxes, because it just makes it easier to categorize and be like, Okay, he's the, oh, he's the guy who does the contained movies, if we have a contained idea, we'll call him. Or, you know, he just does action. Or he's just a comedy writer. He's a, he's a he's a Polish guy or gal who just does polishes for comedy or joke write dialogue writing or you know, things like that. And it's your job to break out of that. And it's some people love staying in their box, and they build an entire career out of their box. But it's hard. Especially if you've been in a box for a while you weren't in a box for a while. But it's hard once you're in that box, to change perceptions, and see if trees argument is a little bit different than buried.

Chris Sparling 27:56
Yeah, it is. I mean, I will I will actually push back a little bit on what you're saying. I'm in even to this day, I still find myself. People who have that perception of me are like, Oh, you write these small containers? Really? Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's me. We'll get to Greenland, I'm sure. But that's largely where green was born. I've worked like a really? I'll show you. I've been I've been a stubborn bass. Not stubborn in a mean way. But like, if you grow like if someone told me when I was younger, like Oh, dude, you can't like playing basketball, dude. You know, you can't shoot. That's it. Fucking next day. I'm out there in the snow shooting all day long. Yeah, I mean, it's gonna go through my head over and over again. I early on. I'm sure we all have these stories. I remember very early on I talked about that. No, I call it a movie I made the first one. I remember going to a small again, this is a sign of the times to get a replication done of the of the DVD. I do that myself.

Alex Ferrari 28:57
Right. There's not duplication, a replication which is a different Yeah, you went to go get the class master made back in the day. Yes. So

Chris Sparling 29:04
so so I and I go to this, like this small little video place here in Rhode Island. Right? That I don't even know what they specialize in. But whatever, there they are. Currently, the only place I can find that does it. And there are a couple guys are, you know, they're probably honestly, they're probably my age now. But back then. And like really just kind of like, it's sort of, like cynical. And, and so I was like, you know, a young kid. I'm like, you know, I'd love to you know, this is what I hope you guys could do here. You know, I need this done. And kind of looking at me with this. Tim was like sneering sort of look like Well, so what do you want to do? And and I told him I was like, I want to make features. And they kind of looked at it. It was almost like a bad movie. See like a scene from a bad movie. Like they look at each other roll their eyes. And the guy says something to the effect of Yeah, kid we all we all like, is it to say like, it's not gonna happen. This is what you're gonna do. You're gonna be doing We're doing Right, right. And like, I clearly remember that to this day cuz I was like, fuck you motherfucker, that's not gonna be me. Because that's not you're not I mean, and, and that shit to me is like fuel, right? You know that sort of stuff people say, I can't do something and and, you know, it's I've never you know, again like a lot of people I'm not unique in this way they I've never I didn't you know things never really came easy to me like I'm not I'm not I was not a gifted writer, I was a pretty good writer growing up I, whatever, whatever it is, you know, and so this stuff has taken me a long time we're resolving people, half the time. Where was I going with this? But anyway, so So, so with when when ATM comes out again on the you take you take a few hits, because you're like, oh, man, no phones aren't ringing anymore. I was like, no one's gonna do it for me, like I have to get I have to go again and show that I can do something different and see trees was a drama, you know, I was like, I'm gonna go not at all what I've done,

Alex Ferrari 31:01
right. And it's, it's a, it's a completely different kind of drama than what you would with anything else that you've done. One thing I wanted to kind of touch on about that, that kind of, not to, not to demean it. But the spunky attitude of the East coaster. There's an there's, there's, we have chips on our shoulders I'm from I'm the I'm an East coaster, too. I was raised in New York, but but then, you know, spent most of my time down in South Florida. And when you're coming up as a filmmaker on the East Coast, or arguably not only East Coast, but arguably outside of LA, you've got a chip, because you got to struggle that much harder to get anything going like that you made a move in the 90s on a dv x 108 in Rhode Island, right? For 20 grand. That's a like you said it's a miracle. You know, I did something, I did something similar in 2005 with the dv x. And it was just like, I can't believe I look back at it. I'm like, how God's green earth did I do that? Like it's but there's a thing. And now you've lived in LA, obviously, and I've I live in LA, for 13 years. When you get out to LA, you realize it's just it's everywhere. It's everywhere. Every Starbucks you walk down to has final draft on all the laptops. You know, I always did I always say the joke when I walk into it when I get an Uber, pre pandemic, what I used to jump into when I used to world Yeah, in a different world. I used to jump into Uber and I would say how the audition go, or how's the script going? Like without even saying hello. And then like, how do you know I'm like? I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened to you in an Uber I actually had a composer like bust open, like music This time, because I told him, what do you do? I'm like, oh my god. I'm a director and like, Well, I have some music. I'm a composer here. And they would like play them. And it was so bad. I was like I didn't. And he's like, Can you give me the honest truth? I'm like, do you want to meet you want me to be honest. And I, I'll be constructive. But I'll be honest, and I gave him the honest review. And you could just see. Just deflated. I'm like, I rather you hear from me, man than if you go into a room somewhere. When if you if you get into the room somewhere, and you play that it's not ready.

Chris Sparling 33:18
Yeah, but that's the sort of stuff honestly, like, hear that you get deflated. But then you go one of two ways. Either you're like, I just you stay I guess stay deflated. Or you're like, later on that you're that guy, you're talking guy. I'm gonna make myself better. But you take the lesson, you're like, there's something to be taken from that I had that. Again, I'm talking way too much about movie that I'd rather not talk about at all. But nonetheless, that same movie, I remember showing it to some like filmmaker in Boston again, I was, I don't mean to keep using the word hustle. Because it sounds like I'm just sucking up to you. It's fun.

Alex Ferrari 33:55
It's fun. Once you send me a dime every time you say the word though, but that's

Chris Sparling 34:02
what's like in the course of that struggle, that hustle like I remember finding about finding this filmmaker in Boston. I was like, again, well, there's a filmmaker, I've tried to reach out to them. I just talked to him. And I remember I sent him the movie. And I was like, oh God, like you might like my movie this guy. And, and he I remember getting an email back. And it was something to the effect of like, I tried, like, I tried watching it, but I turned it off after half an hour. And I was just like, oh my god, like, Oh, you know, and what do you do at that point? Either you just go I guess one of three things. You say well, I'm just not cut out for this. And that's the end of it. Or you just I guess stay you accept the fact that you're not good at and continue to be not good. Or you recognize there's constructive criticism in there and and then you get better. You know, you have to keep working till you're better.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
So,

Chris Sparling 34:53
so yeah, that's, yeah. There was something else I was going to tell you. Well,

Alex Ferrari 34:58
I wasn't okay. We'll get to it. So I, I, I don't mean to sound like I was being addicted, that poor guy in the that was in my Uber driver who was selling me the composer. But the thing is that the you and I got hit card Jesus with my films. I mean, I would send them out and I would get just, you know, people wouldn't like it, but then some people would love it. And it's like, Am I pled out for this is is this the thing, at a certain point, the universe is going to continuously throw punches at you constantly, they're going to be throwing crap at you thinking it's going to test you all the time. Because arguably, this is one of the most difficult businesses in the world to break into. Sure. It's just, it's just a very brutal business to break into. And the universe continuously is going to test you and test you to see if you've got the metal to make it happen. There's always the there's always the Robert Rodriguez story. Everyone always talks about the Robert Rodriguez story, or, or the paranormal activity or these kind of lottery ticket. Even Eddie, you know, when I talked to Adam, like a year, you earned a lottery ticket he goes, but then when you hear the story of how you got brothers with bolaven I'm like, Dude, that was brutal. as well. But you got it. I think the universe tested us like, do you have the metal to keep going? Because the people who actually make it in our business and and you know, you have you've been in the business and have had a lot of successes and know a lot of people arguably, it's not always the most talented. It's not the nicest, no,

Chris Sparling 36:27
no, it's not. Um, you know, yeah, it's not, I mean, on both sides on our side and say, the executive side, all all

Alex Ferrari 36:36
sides of all the business, but it's like, but it's about who stuck in there who write it and give up and they're the ones that make it. And there's I know some I know, some talented screenwriters man, whoever reads the scripts, I'm like, why hasn't this been produced?

Chris Sparling 36:51
Sure.

Alex Ferrari 36:52
Yeah, this is great. And you just like, sometimes it pops. Sometimes it doesn't like the way the world works. I don't understand it. But like you got

Chris Sparling 37:01
talented Pete a lot of talented people that are truly waiting to be quote, unquote, discovered there. There are a lot of people out there that are, you know, they've made a career. And then you wonder how sometimes and that's, like I said, on the, on the executive side, I've met some really, really great executives. They're like, these are brilliant men and women that you're like, you know, it makes perfect sense why you're successful as you are. And occasionally though, you come across someone and you ask yourself, like, how did you even get your job? Like, how did you, you know, last this long, I mean, because it's shocking. Sometimes it is, Oh, God, I've

Alex Ferrari 37:35
seen them. Oh, god, oh, no. My post days, when I had my post house, I would get these guys come in. And it's like, you know, some 24 year old who got three or $4 million to make their first feature. And I'm sitting there like stewing as I'm color grading or editing the project. And I'm like, Yeah, do you want me to make this look like a little Blade Runner esque. And they're like, I've never seen Blade Runner. I'm like, get out of my sweet. What is wrong with you? Like, like, how did someone give you 3 million? Why did I get that 3 million God?

Chris Sparling 38:04
And it's looking, it's just how it works out for everybody, you know? Yeah. And the thing like no one listening to this is gonna say, Oh, that's what Chris farlington said, that's what I should do. No, don't like don't because it's not going to your way is going to be your way and not to sound like an old man. But it's the truth. It's like, this is this isn't, you know, this isn't. These aren't the hard sciences. Like if that's what you're looking for, if you're looking for a profession where you get concrete answers. Go become a mathematician, I guess you're you're a scientist, where you could say this is the this is the fact like, I know this for a fact that I accomplished this, and this is what it is, is settled. This is the kind of thing we're we're all doing our best and and hoping that the stars align when they do. They're certainly tried and more tried and true, I guess, approaches for sure. But at the end of the day, I think it really just comes down to kind of, you know, the amount of effort you're putting in.

Alex Ferrari 38:57
Did you make the same mistake? I did, because I when I was coming up, I you know, Robert, Robert, Eddie, Rick, Linkletter all these guys, you, you know, Kevin Smith, you I just kept looking at all their paths. I'm like, Well, I'm going to do what Robert did, or I'm going to do what Kevin did, or I'm going to do, thinking that I was trying to hack the system. And I was trying to figure out a way like, how can I get in? Okay, well, they snuck into the party this way, maybe I can go down that road. And the thing is that every one of those, the door slammed behind them. Because it just was there time with their project at that moment. You know, when I had Rick on the show, and I even I think I even asked Eddie this I go, do you think brothers Macmillan would make it today? And I think Eddie said probably not like just just too much. This is not the time for that film. It was at that moment, you know, so did you make that mistake?

Chris Sparling 39:48
Yeah, I think all of us do. No, it's like that we it's it's part of the process, right? Even say just finding your voice like at first. We're all like, we're all like cover bands, right? Like that's the way we learn to play is that we play couple songs at first. And so like, that's a great analogy. It's like you have to create eventually you want to kind of do your own thing. And so you learn to and and but what I think the takeaway is what what you can emulate or copy even what they did is that they did it. Like they went out and did it you don't you don't want to copy what they did you want to copy the fact that they actually got off their ass and did it. And I, you know, I have to imagine this is your experience as well. There's something so interesting about this business, because there are so many people that are in so many of us are always talking about the things we're going to do and going to make and that's our side, on the executive side is right, like all these projects in development and etc, etc. And it's all it's not to say that it's it's just bullshit. Sometimes I suppose it is. But like, it's these are all like desires like we want. And it's amazing thing when you are making something. It's amazing how people just lean in. And they're like, well, what, and I had that experience, I had that experience. When I did, I did a small movie called The Atticus Institute with Peter Safran. And, and so, I made that movie, there's like a $200,000 movie that we did. And there's a good movie, my opinion, but anyway, you know, I'm in post on it in LA, meanwhile, doing some meetings, etc, etc. And I wasn't really mentioning it. You know, like, they just came also, when you come in Delhi, just for the meetings, I'm like, Well, usually that's what I'll do. But I'm here because I'm in Poland. I was like, I'm and post on a movie I do. And you watch it. They're like, What movie is that? And the converse, like the, like the blinders they could put on because I think there's just something and it happens to me, a buddy of mine just made a movie. I'm so proud of them. He's been in LA and actor friend of mine. Like he, he's been in LA for 20 something years, or whatever it's been. And he just he went out and produced and wrote and produced his own movie. And I was like, Yeah, and I was like, and I find myself I'm like, holy shit. And

Alex Ferrari 42:02
Can I see it?

Chris Sparling 42:04
Yes, because it's real. Like, it's what separates you from a lot of people who in our business, just talk about making movies, or talking about making district that. And I don't know, that's what I think that's what I think you can take from people like Robert Rodriguez and Eddie Edwards. And I said this. I've actually spoken to Aaron, Eddie producing partners since hearing them on the podcast. I told him, I was like, Yeah, I was I reached out like, Hey, I heard it on the podcast, etc, etc. And I told them, you know, those guys, that story inspires me all over again, every time, you know, where I hear what they did and what they're doing currently. Because, believe me, I'm not I'm not I'm not dumb. I recognize that I'm talking from a pretty privileged position now where I am a morning writer, I get, you know, hired to write and rewrite stuff, etc, etc. So it's easy for me to kind of make this Cavalier statement of like, fucking man, I was inspired. I'm gonna go make something my own. Well, it's Yeah, it's like, Yeah, dude, you because you're already making money. You're lucky, right? But, you know, to be fair to myself, I was the guy on the other side for a long time, a very long time. You know, just trying to hustle trying to whatever my point is. I heard them like, what would they always call me Marlin? 2.0. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's just inspiring every time I hear them where it's like, you know, and I've talked to him over and over about it to where it's like, man, tell me about Tell me about how you guys go out and you're making movies or whatever else for very little money all you know, relatively speaking and, and, and, you know, something they said early on, which I thought was really, really interesting is like, just like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter ultimately, how many people are in front of I'm sorry, behind the camera. People don't know. They if it looks you know, you want to make something professional but they don't know they see what's in front of the camera. So don't get caught based. Don't be caught up in missiles that maybe we now know, it's like you need this you need that it was like remember, go back to the beginning. No, you didn't. And and you end up not doing stuff because you think you need all these extra things. And the same thing with you know, we were talking before about like maturity and certainly what happens if we were successful? Or look look at a night like m night was she called the next Spielberg and like, what 26 years old or whatever it was. Now I did I know night fairly well I did a project with him. And I got to know him and I got to know like his producing partner cousin Ashwin, they're just fucking great people you know without you know, like I was working remember that project the movie devil that he did? Okay, so that was part of something called a Chronicles that night was going to be kind of godfather three projects that he wasn't he was going to produce but he wasn't writing or directing. But they were his ideas. samples. The first I was brought on to do the second one it just ended up Never happening. Long story short, it was this was all occurring like he brought me out to his chicken ranch in, in, in Pennsylvania. Whatever it's occurring at a time when he was like I think he had done last airbender. He was about to do After Earth, it was a tough time in the night sucks. And so like, I saw that and I saw him just on a human level kind of being like, you know, this is kind of the shit we're talking about now. It's like the same conversation of like, fuck man, like what's going on? Like, how do I? How do I get, you know, get the engine going again? And what my point is like, what fast forward a few years after that, he puts up a visit, where it's like a self funded found footage movie. Now, to do that, to step back from being the next Spielberg, right, who made arguably one of the best movies at least of our generation with the success and breakable right? to step back, check your ego. And say, I'm going to make a small found footage horror movie for like, whatever amount of money, no one full Well, people are going to be like, what this is what you've become like you've been reduced to this. Because it's like, he's like, No, I'm a filmmaker. So this is what I'm going to do. And I don't know I give the guy all the credit in the world. I'm so glad that it worked. Because now his career is where it is again. I don't know I guess I'm just saying like, I'm so endlessly impressed by the an Aaron doing it by night doing it. And it's just so inspiring of a thing.

Alex Ferrari 46:19
I mean, I'll tell you when I I've been a fan of night since since success, like everybody who saw success was just like, you know, unbreakable, arguably one of the best superhero movies of all time, as well. And I saw I saw the decline, you know, with Last Airbender, and then after Earth, you know, where we're, everyone's like, he's done. It's over. It's over. And what he is, but he is single handedly reconstructed his career to the place where it is today. And it is a success story that is not spoken about enough. Because people love to crap, everyone loves to see, the Giants fall, they all love to see that. I was you know, I remember, you know, in 9091 90, after hook Spielberg is over, it's done. He's good. He had a great run. It's over. I'd love hook, by the way, but you know, it didn't it didn't perform as well as everyone wanted it to perform and all this kind of stuff. And he's like, Oh, really? Okay, I'm gonna do the dinosaur movie. And I'm gonna do Schindler's List on the same year. And then, as Spielberg showed up, but I'm not I mean, now like his new movie old, which looks, you know, terrifying. It's like he's again, he's again tapped into a fear that every human being on the planet as you know, it's it's it's amazing to see what he's been able to do with his career. But it is that thing that you were saying. It's like the, you know, Edie is is a filmmaker Rick is a filmmaker Roberts, a filmmaker, at the at their core, and they're indie filmmakers, no less. They come from a generation. They're like, they're their indie guys. And I love like when I used to watch at nights, behind the scenes and special features on his movies, he always put short films is like high school short films on duty. Yeah, you would see him like acting out in his own little short films. I'm like, he's a filmmaker, man. Like, right? He's a filmmaker, you edit. And no matter who you are, and I've had the pleasure of speaking to amazing people on my show. At the end of the day, I don't care if you've made $200 billion, or you've made $2 filmmakers, a filmmaker, and it's and you connect at that level, even if it's Spielberg, or if it's a new film student that just came out of out of film school. It's, it's the same thing. And is that hustle no pun intended? Is that hustle that you can't you can't let go. So I wanted to go back to see a trees mad because people who don't know about see of trees, it was directed by a young up and coming director. Gus Van Sant, dude, what is it like writing for Gus Van Sant like, if you like we're referring to Goodwill hunting. Like, right?

Chris Sparling 48:54
I know. What's that like deal in that way? Because it started, like I said, it started me off as a writer was Google hunting is you know, that had movie. And so I remember. I remember telling him that and Gus is Gus is a very nice guy, you know, but he's Gus Van Sant. He's kind of eccentric, eccentric. You know, not no crazy way. But like, you know, and I remember telling him I was told that story. You know, it's, you know, you're not doing this right now as you're going through the script, etc. I'm like, it was your movie that inspired me to become a writer. I think it's kind of cool that you know, he already kind of looked at me He's like, why didn't write it? I was like, Yeah, dude, I know that. When you when you cool? movie.

Alex Ferrari 49:37
Like Gus Crockett, whatever, man. Let's just talk about the scripts. I guess I i understand that Gus. Because I saw the Oscars like everybody else did. And and Matt and Ben and Ben Ben wrote it. We know that. But you were a big part of that film, which inspired me to become a writer, sir. Because without you, Ben and Matt. God knows what would have happened to them. Right. Right. So

Chris Sparling 49:59
So I mean, that was Wild that project was a wild ride because, again, kind of what like, prompted me to write it was again trying to break myself out of this box, no pun intended. And, and, you know, and then it got into Cannes and it was a, I was like, holy shit like I have a project going to can That's amazing. And this is obviously after the movie, you know, shot with Connie and Naomi and Gus and Ken Watson episodes like, and as a producer on it. So it was like, Wow, this is amazing. And then it got to can and they did the they did the I don't know why they do it this way. But they do it can they do with the press screenings before the like the real screening like red carpet screening whatever, in the press fucking destroyed it. They booed it they like and so I met my wife and I. And again, this is still fairly early in my career. I mean, it's like, you know, I had done very, and I didn't especially, you know, this was like a big thing, you know, to go to can with a big movie star. Big director. Yeah, right. Like, so I'm like, I'm like, wow, this is fucking cool. And I remember being out to dinner and a friend of mine, producer friend that got prepared actually one of the producers. He's sitting at dinner, any Spanish and he just kind of, he's just not having to look in his phone. And he just looks at me goes all preseason. I am so sorry. And I was like, what, what are you sorry for talking about? And he just showed me the phone and it was just said, like, buried gets booed at can screaming. And I was like, Oh, my God, like, No, No, this can't be happening. And, and, and that night was tough. It was kind of like I remembered going for a walk and, you know, um, it's it's the sort of thing and maybe this is like, a, an East Coast thing. And like, I mean, look, I grew up working class, and you're used to kind of taking your hits, it's just the way it is my friends and I, to this day joke about it's like The Clash of the Titans. That's what we call it. It's like, Clash of the Titans bends like your little figurines that the gods played with. They see you doing a little too good. They have to knock you down, like and I like and it felt like that more than like, I told my buddy, Clash of the Titans, man. You know, it's like, I got to I can but they fucking said nope, nope, you're not gonna you're not gonna get that far. We're gonna knock you down. And you know, so it sucked in that way. But thankfully, I think it was the next night or two nights after was the the screening screening. And I mean, we got a we did a four minute standing ovation. And it was nice. And did the movie deserve a four minute standing ovation? I don't think so. I think some people I think it was kind of like, it definitely didn't deserve to be booed. So we'll give you I think it was a little bit of that built into it. You know, but the movie, I think the movie turned out fine. There were, you know, it's interesting to see it now. Because it's found a new life in recent years on amazon prime, where it seems like it's found its audience. But if people like there's a certain audience that loves love that that movie, you know, and I think, again, there are, let's be honest, there are certain there are definitely like critics, like high minded critics that, you know, they just oh, you know, like, it doesn't meet their, their, their, I don't know, whatever it is their threshold for them or doesn't cross that threshold, or it doesn't reach a certain level for them. And so they're gonna have to just destroy it. I think there were those people for sure. And I think maybe people who just appreciate the movie for the movie, and the message and the themes, etc, etc. I think it's like, and the filmmaking Don't get me wrong, but filmmaking as well, I'm not discounting that. I think it's been a nice journey. It's kind of by this point.

Alex Ferrari 53:36
So yeah, and it and don't feel too bad. I mean, the press the press account is infamous of being just brutal. Like they, they those press screenings, I've heard legendary stories of them just destroying things. And yeah, it is what it is, man. Like, if it was me, if it was me, dude, I'd be like, EFF you guys. I'm in cash. That's it. I'm happy. No, I did a movie with Gus Van set, starring Matthew McConaughey. Go zombie. And you're just like, still, it's not for everybody. But I'm having a I, uh, you might be like you had sent yet Sundance with Bert buried. So you hit like, you know, double, basically at Sundance at can. And not only a can but with, right, with an amazing cast. A legendary director. It's got to care what anyone says at that point. I'm, I've already I'm just happy to be nominated. Yeah.

Chris Sparling 54:31
Like I said, it was another instance Alex of where like, it's the gut punch. Yeah. I take it No, but then you have to decide what you're going to do. Do you know what I mean? Are you going to say that's it? This was my Big Shot, let's just say, Yeah. Or, you know, or you're gonna say, fuck you.

Alex Ferrari 54:50
I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna at least try to get better. I'm gonna do you know, maybe the next one you won't hate. And though and that is that's that. I hate to say it. That's it. That's an East Coast mentality. That really kind of like a working class East Coast mentality. You know, because, you know, it's just the way it is, especially when you're working class and you're coming up, you know, I was definitely the same as you. I mean, I was, you know, I was I was raised in Jamaica, Queens, you know, lived in an apartment, it was probably, I think, 500 square feet, you know, and, you know, you just take, you get used to getting hit, not physically but like the world just pounce on you. And that's just, that's, that's your your path in life. And that's nothing wrong with that. But you get stronger, your skin gets harder, you get more shrapnel on you, from the stuff that you go through. And those are the people that make it in this business. Not the walk right, this this way, Mr. spurlin. Come right on. And how much do you pay for your project? Oh, 100 million, here's 100 mil rat, that kind of scenario, if it does happen, and that's the only thing you know, the second you get tapped, you get flicked, you're, you're on the floor. Not now. Yeah, you're fragile. You're very fragile. And I think that's, I personally, as a filmmaker I've enjoyed, I can't say I've enjoyed the struggle. But I appreciate the struggle that I've gone through throughout my career throughout my life throughout everything I've done, because it has made me who I am today. And arguably, when I do get punched, which I've said this 1000 times on the show, we all get punched, I don't care who you are, how big you are, you're gonna get punched by this business. You learn how to take it, and you just keep going like insane people that we are. This is insanity.

Chris Sparling 56:35
Because we like you were saying before, it's like because we love it. We love doing it. It's like if it were something we hated, we'd be like, Fuck this. Why? Why am I going to keep taking these hits?

Alex Ferrari 56:45
Did you ever try? Did you ever try quitting? No,

Chris Sparling 56:48
when buried when buried happened, though, I was approaching kind of that turning point where I was getting to be a certain age, my wife and I were shoes, my shoes, my actually the girlfriend becoming fiance at that stage. You know that it's that's all part of life, you know, where you kind of re evaluate where you are. It's easy when I was a 20 something real kid living in LA by myself with roommates as an actor, it's like, you know, and then and then even to say, you know, I I just like who you know, your friends and family around you like life changes always changing. They can find yourself in different circumstances. And I think that really does your decisions. And that being one of them. Where I was at a stage I was like, man, is this time to throw in the towel? Like I've given this a go? Like I can't, I can barely say to myself I that I've tried, right? He's it would be one thing if I was like, and I kind of have fasted, and I was like, No, I've tried, I've really worked at this. I guess the difference is I was like, well, as a writer, there's really no reason to stop, I can continue to write, you know what I mean? It's like, if that, you know, the acting thing is, as I said that almost the outset of this, that's what makes it a particularly difficult struggle is like, there's really no other version of it. It's like, you have to be there, it's you. It's like, that's your are the professional you want. And it's a it's a very inconsistent profession, and so on and so forth. Like, as a writer, even though I was at that crossroads, I was kind of like, I don't know, if this is going to happen, I don't know if I can continue with the level of output that I've been trying, you know, at for the past X number of years at that point. But I think I can continue to write because I like doing it. And I still think maybe there is a glimmer of hope in there for me somewhere. You know, and it's interesting, because I look back at when varied happened. And, you know, it's easy to add add meaning and symbolism to shit, you know, you know, like, it's it really, if I can, there's, you know, in a way, I felt like trapped in a way I felt like I needed to break out in a way I felt like time was running out all of those things, and whether it's subconscious or not, or whether again, I'm just like retrofitting it to make it sound cool. I don't know. But it's all it's definitely true. All of those things are what I felt at the time I was writing it. And, you know, when we talked before about the stars aligning right at a certain time now. I don't I personally, I don't believe in fate, or deterministic or determinism sort of thing. I don't teach there. Oh, that's not what I'm saying. What but what did certainly happen is that this was around 2008 that this all kind of started this process was buried, you know, I mean, between starting to write the script and figure out how it's gonna make it, etc, etc. That was around the time. That was the financial crisis. That was right after the, you know, 2008 when the the world was,

Alex Ferrari 59:39
yeah, the world's upside down.

Chris Sparling 59:41
Yeah. So that I think, factored into, you know, talking about the stars aligning, all of a sudden people were crunched for cash, you know, and I don't mean just people I mean, companies and you know, studios and this, so all of a sudden it wasn't, you know, it was like the heyday of writing checks and big make it wasn't happening as well. Because people were really, you know, paying attention, their bottom line and their Ledger's. And along comes a movie, where it's like, fuck this movie could be made for like next to nothing. And I think that helped. I think the timing of it helped it, because, and it happened again, during the pandemic for me, where I can get to a project called Lakewood later, but again, I didn't set out for it to happen for it to be, and I hate the term but a COVID friendly movie. But it turned out to be in this, you know, just happened to be in it. The stars aligned again, in this case for, you know, particularly bad reasons. But, again, that's not that's stuff that's out of your control. I don't know if buried if I had come along with Barry even a year earlier, people might have said how to what my thinking was at the time is that no one's gonna give a shit about my guy in a box movie. Why are people in Hollywood in the care about that?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:50
Right? And I'll tell you what, I feel you 100% in regards to symbolism in your script, at the time and you feel trapped and all that stuff. I wrote a script that literally you it was a revenge movie. And it's you I I think I almost it was the DNA of that film is my anger towards the industry. The anger towards not being able to make it and I'm like, I'm seeking revenge and the bad guys the industry for not giving me a shot because God dammit, I you know, I might not be the next Spielberg. But I could definitely roll you know, I could definitely Exeter movies, I can definitely I proven myself why like God dammit, Evan, I got in the whole script. And that energy was in the script. And I've gone back and read it a while ago. And it's just like, you can just sense the anger in it. It's really weird. But it was cathartic to get it out there. And I think you know, sometimes that works well like you with bear in mind. My script didn't get made, but it's still like, it was just really interesting. And I think writers sometimes have to pour that energy into you. You have to switch between anger and bitterness and I think there's a little bit of bitterness I think you've heard me say this on the show it everybody knows an angry bitter filmmaker screenwriter. And if you don't know an angry or bitter screenwriter, you are the angry one that everybody else knows. So you you were talking about being in a box again, this is coming back around to this box. No pun intended, but you weren't a boxy energetic. Okay, so you're the, the the small location, you know, one location kind of writer, okay, now, you've done sea of trees, and I knew the drama writer, but you really is still small. It's a small movie. You're not big and you're like, Oh, yeah, well, then I'm gonna make a big movie. And then you wrote Greenland. And tell me how that came about? And what how that whole project came to be because I just recently saw it. Because I've been dying. I was dying to see it. When I saw the trailer. I was like, I love those kind of disaster. disaster movies. And I loved Jerry, I love Jerry Butler. And I wanted to see it. So I was like, when I found out you wrote it, I was like, Oh, God, I left I want to get the story behind it. How did I get it done? Because it was it's a it's, it was a runaway hit for what it was.

Chris Sparling 1:03:12
Right? Yeah, it was, it was the purpose of it. Really. I mean, I should I should back up. So I try to write at least one if not two specs a year still. And, you know, it's To me, it's just, it's just the stuff I like doing more because it's, you know, they're my, they're like my babies as opposed to me taking care of somebody else's baby which, again, I, I, I'm endlessly grateful for being able to do that for a living to write screenplays for a living and, you know, people hired me to do that. But at the end of the day, I just do like writing my own stuff, too. So, um, so I was like, Alright, how do I really kind of really just convinced the town frankly, that it's like, I don't just write small and not even contained, but just like small. I'd gone from being the guy that for the very small, small movies, right? Yes. to like, I write these kind of smaller in scope

Alex Ferrari 1:04:10
character character pieces. Yeah. characters. Yeah. Right. Character pieces,

Chris Sparling 1:04:13
right. And, and so are what end of the world moving really. And so I came up with the idea. I was like, you know, what did then at that point, and because you can't help but go back to when you hear things like an asteroid or comet hitting the earth, or then it's like, Alright, well, there's Armageddon, and there's you can't help it do. It's like jaws anytime you mention a shark movie can help compare, but I was like, What didn't been long enough. I feel since that kind of that movie, those movies has come out. And so, but I wanted to approach it in a way that still felt like my, for lack of a better word brand. And someone recently talked about Greenland to me in a way and they they use the term that I'm totally going to steal going forward and I will right now called a keyhole epic. And I was like, I was like, Yes. That's like that. What I wanted to do, and that is, you know, effectively having, you know, this epic thing happening in this case at the end of the world. So this, whatever it is, but in this case that, but we're seeing it through the keyhole, we're seeing it through a very specific lens. In the case of this movie, it's just we're following this one family, as opposed to checking on the president and checking on this, these people that people like the rolling average version, again, which I find interesting and fun, but it's a different movie than than Greenland. And so what I tried to do in writing Greenland, I like, I was like, No, I want to write the impossible. Like, what is the more fun version of the impossible? were fun. It was a great movie. I loved it.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:41
Oh, God. Yeah.

Chris Sparling 1:05:44
So like, you know, what is the more entertainment I guess, base version of that. And without going too far in the other direction, either though, like, I didn't want it to become ridiculous and over the top, but I wanted to, so I kind of just stuck to what I felt like by this stage in my career, I'm pretty good at which is again, just focusing more on like, the characters seem very specific lens, and through a specific lens. And, yeah, and that was it. And then it was just a matter of like, what is going to make this different or potentially unique? And, and, you know, Greenland's like, why not that you're asked the question, but you know, I'm sometimes hesitant to say it, because it's weird how these days everything can be spun out, like, become either political or like this or that, or whatever, you know. But the truth is the like, this isn't why I wrote the movie, but it's the the, what's the word? I'm looking for? The allegory, the allegory that's built into that movie? is about it's about climate change. Yeah. And that's why I named it Why is why it's named Greenland, why they should go to Greenland is not by accident. That's where I chose of all the places on the planet. Because I wanted to basically say, look, you know, with climate change, this is happening, this is happening, especially now as we say this, is we have this conversation like this is happening fast. But just because if it were an asteroid that was coming in like five days, we would be reacting accordingly, we would be, you know, we would be meeting what as best we can the moment to save ourselves. But because it's not happening that fast, we kind of act like we have all the time in the world, even though we know we don't even without even without an asteroid or climate change or whatever else. Our lives are finite. And for some reason, I know if it's a defense mechanism as a species, but like, we generally don't think about that, and we just go about our day, probably to keep us from going crazy. But But the reality is, we don't have all the time in the world, and we do know it. It's only when kind of your world gets rocked by something. No pun intended. That, that like sometimes you wake up and you realize that you know, and that's not to go on to on a tangent or try to sound too fancy. But like, that's the beauty of cinema at the end of the day, is that movies take us to a place where we feel something, and we walk out of it. And we have the lived experience that we would have had if it actually happened was real life. Right. But we don't have to suffer the negative consequences of it happening in real life. We still get the message, we still get the wake up call.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:13
Right? If it's if it's done if it's done. Right. If it's done, right. I think the I think a good analogy would be what smokers do, or what people who eat fast food everyday do. You know, it's killing you, you know, in 510 years, 20 years, you're gonna have problems if you keep down this road. But you just Oh, it's it's so far down the line. And that's what's going on with climate change right now until you either have that moment, which is heart attacks, heart attack, you're like, Oh, I better stuck, or, you know, one of the lungs collapses or, or something like that drag attic. And he name your analogy. But that's where we're at right now, as opposed to, you're gonna die in five days. You need to do something. And that's basically what Greenland is. And you're absolutely right. If there was a comet coming, we would react to save ourselves. But yeah, because it's so far down the line in our minds, even though we literally see the world burning around us. Sure, literally, you're seeing the world burning around us right now with egg freezing around us like that freeze of last year. sanity sucks. 60% of the country was frozen. You know, right. And then and no one's like, and no one's like, that's okay. No, it's not man. I don't remember that. I don't remember. I don't remember growing up when it hit over 100 anywhere. Other than like, Death Valley. It was it was a rarity. Now it's like that's a common place over 100 is common. I was in Palm Springs. I was in Palm Springs in the day was 117. I don't know if you've been in 117 270 117 is literally like walking out into into an oven to hell. I had like I think I even got a little heat stroke because it was just it was insane. So hot. And people in Palm Springs are walking around like it was 90. I'm like you all savages, your animals, I

Chris Sparling 1:10:06
have no doubt you do this. I don't know about you. And that's not to hijack this and make this about climate change. Also, just one quick thing. Since you grew up in the East Coast as well, the thing the indicator for me over the years has been when I was a kid, I remember going on Halloween, it was always freezing out the whole guild cold on Halloween, right? you'd end up with all the best intentions of wearing your cool costume. But you'd end up wearing like a winter jacket and on top of it right and ruin the whole thing. Sure. In the I just in the past 10 years, and again, this is just just anecdotal, obviously. But in the past 10 years, man, Halloween, it's been like you walk around and like kind of like what I'm wearing now. Yeah, where it's like, this is just

Alex Ferrari 1:10:51
7580 Yeah, so yeah,

Chris Sparling 1:10:52
it's like, it's a nice night, you know, it's like, you know, whatever it is comfortable. Like that. That was not the case when I was a kid. And again, merely anecdotal doesn't actually mean a thing. It's just something that I picked up on personally. book to your to your thing about like saying, What would we do with if we knew in five days that you know, it was all going to end? Like, yeah, I mean, there's the version, obviously, not only would be trying to scramble to save our lives, but we'd be trying to do it, we'd be doing what we need to do to settle our to settle our kind of emotional debts, if you will, like we would, we would tell the people that you've been wanting to tell that you love them, and you have it for whatever reason, because we all do it, you know? And then or you would tell someone you're sorry, all those things like you would recognize, I can't keep kicking the can down the road. I can't do it. I have to do it now. And that's what I'm saying like that is and I'm not talking about Greenland here. I'm talking about all movies. It's like when they when they they do it, right. Great Ones do is that you walk out of that movie theater and you end and you remember that stuff like that. I'm saying like you it happens, it feels like it happened in real life to you. But the benefit is it. You don't have to suffer the consequences of it actually happening to you in real life.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:05
Right. And that's Yeah, and if Yeah, absolutely. There's no question. And before we move on, we can we just Can we just touch upon how wonderful Armageddon is in the cheesiest? Wonderful, goddamn wherever, oh, my God, it is a god. It's like I love Armageddon. so far. It's like one of my guilty pleasures. It makes no sense. I think I remember I remember listening to the commentary, where Ben Affleck asked Michael Bay like, hey, wouldn't it be easier to teach astronauts how to drill than teaching to learn how to be astronauts? And it's like, right, and Michael Bay's like, shut the fuck up bet. And at that point, I just kept quiet for the rest of this. But no, if you guys haven't seen Greenland, you absolutely have to watch. What are you working on? Now? What are your next projects? Isn't there a sequel to Greenland? I saw someone I'm doing it,

Chris Sparling 1:12:56
there's a sequel. Yeah, so so that was announced it can screw up the market this year. So that's happening, which is super exciting. So I've already written the first draft of that. So I'm sure in the next kind of at least the next month is probably going to be a lot of doing the rewrite on that. And then I have two projects, you know, is weird, like this is obviously it's been a weird year and a half for everybody. Just speaking only for myself here. It's been we've been pretty locked down at my house. Up until you know, we get vaccinated my wife and I it cetera, et cetera, kind of ease back a bit, but prior to that, we were very locked down. And, and so but thankfully, during that time, I've managed to have two movies. Well, both of which I wrote produced. And so one is it is a smaller movie, and that's okay. called intrusion the sets in Netflix original was free to Pinto. So that's coming and I think September, I sold but don't don't quote me on that just yet. And then I did a movie called Lakewood with Naomi Watts. And that was the one I referenced earlier where it was a movie we're setting out to make. And it just the way it was written it was it's very much in that very model where it's like, you know, kind of one person more or less, the movie occupies and you know, shoulders the movie. And, and then COVID happened. And it just became like, well, this is still a very magical movie, given what COVID restrictions are. And so the movie still got made, and it just was surreal. Because these things are happening. I'm watching live feeds from the monitor as if I was in video village, but I'm watching them from my home office here. And so it's you know, my kids are running around in the background, etc, etc.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:35
That's awesome.

Chris Sparling 1:14:36
Yeah. And I'm just and you know, I'd be calling the director on my phone we could to communicate and, and seeing it, you know, just the COVID protocols in and of themselves are just like at the time especially, you know, fully mass full peepee with some people to gowns on some face shields and just watching it from the somewhat voyeuristic perspective. It's like if someone walked in and saw that they were like, what the hell is this? Is it No, no, this is a movie being made. But what? Like, yeah, this is it looked like I don't know, like is if you were in a hazmat tent somewhere or if you were,

Alex Ferrari 1:15:10
you were an outbreak and you were an outbreak,

Chris Sparling 1:15:12
you were an outbreak, right? But this was a movie, this was just what it looks like behind the scene making these movies. It's a it's a huge, huge credit to the people that were there physically on the ground, and I was getting intimate. So my wife is high risk so going to set which is simply not an option for me. And, and so it was just, it was just amazing to see happen. So those that's what's next those two projects and then

Alex Ferrari 1:15:36
well, so I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests are. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Chris Sparling 1:15:46
Can I say Michael Clayton three times? That's a good script. It is the best. It was a great script. Let me see. That one for sure. That's just to give it the universe as far as I'm concerned. I'm trying to think of things I've read recently. I remember I read the screenplay for the post, which I thought was really great. Oh, yeah, I was trying to think what else? I like the screenplay from mud. I mean, I'm not saying these are like the end all be all screenplays people must read, but they're just ones I remember reading big. Really good. I thought I thought the screenplay for what the fuck was named in the movie. Let's try the book that he wrote. Oh, honey, boy, boy. Yeah, yeah, I was I was blown away by that script. I was like, you know, because again, you think like, Alright, so child about decided he wanted to write a screenplay. We'll see how this is. And I hadn't seen the movie at that point, or whatever else. And, you know, in the script came in during award season, I was like, let me and I was hooked on like, like this good script, man. This guy is good. He can write. So again, I'm not saying those two are necessarily the ones that everyone must read. I'm just they come to mind is really great scripts. But Michael Clayton, and

Alex Ferrari 1:16:58
what advice would you give a screenwriter or filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Chris Sparling 1:17:02
The same advice, you know, like, it's the, again, the cliche things thing of saying what would you say to your younger self? If you could? I would say yet, and this is gonna sound weird. At first I'll explain. Get a job that pays you well. Okay, now, if that's in the industry, great. But if it's not like it, probably as for people like me in Rhode Island at the time, you know, I early on, had far more success, when you know, in that in those incremental ways, when I had a good paying job, because we I especially I think, because I started as an actor. So there was like, a fear of this was before you could work as Uber driver and stuff like, you know, it was like you were waiting tables, and like, God forbid, you had to have, you had to go to an audition. It's like, Well, shit, I might have to end the boss isn't gonna let me go. Well, audition or waiting job waiting table job, I guess I have to quit my waiting table job and then go to the audition. Hope I get it. And But either way, I'm out trying to find a new job again. And it's like you're barely scraping by barely scraping by. And so, you know, I think early on when I transitioned to kind of just say, I guess I'm a screenwriter now is that I still had that mentality of like, I need to be available. And I would take, you know, I would take just jobs to pay the bills, right? Because I was like, and I would say, unless the job is completely occupying your time where you can't write, that's not great. But if you find a job where you can make a good living, we have money in your pocket. Because then you can do stuff, then you can go make shit you can go like, you know what, like, like I was saying, I was able because I had a pretty good job was nothing a great job probably make at the time, like $30,000 $35,000 a year was enough to pay my bills and put a little bit extra money for me to save. To say, I'm gonna make a $5,000 movie, I'm gonna save up for it and make it because if you if you don't have anything, if everything is like hand to mouth and you're struggling, it's tough, man. It's tough to think creatively. It's tough to get it so. It may sound like yeah, no shit dude, that that's what kind of advice is that? But if you can, but but some where if you're like to not only can you get a job that pays you what, what did you get paid right now all of a sudden, man, you have a lot of options. You can you know, we all know that. That rich Dude, that fucking decided they wanted to be in the movie business and sit inside they want to be a producer. It's like, well, no shit. You can write a check for a million bucks. You know, it's like, what's what's stopping you? You know? I mean, so I'm not saying like fines paid like that. My point is more. It's especially when you're young. You think like the struggling actor or the struggling performer or the struggling this this struggling artist. I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know if it's a good thing. I mean, it's not hungry.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:50
No, yeah, no, no, no, no, I got an I was lucky enough and smart enough, young enough when I was young to get into post and I was I was an editor. I just was an editor and I just big and that helped me become a filmmaker. Because then I had always had post production when I went out for commercial shoots or something like that I would throw in post production. But that's how I made a living. I never had an outside job ever. I always had a job in the business always had a job in the business. But the problem was, and this is the only kind of pitfall of having a good paying job in the business even is that you're focusing so much energy on the good paying job sometimes that you don't have enough energy or time to chase the real dream. Because my dream wasn't to be an editor, that's I just did that to make a living. And I loved it. But I wasn't going to just be an editor for the rest of my life. Not that there's anything wrong with it just wasn't my path. And I literally had to break, I had literally had to just retire from editing, just because at a certain point, like even when you're, when you're making money, like, you know, someone shows up, like 30 grand for you to post my film, you got to be in a special place in your life to just turn around, turn off, turn off 30 grand, you know, just like, I don't want that. He started grants or grants. But if you have kids and a family and all this stuff, but at a certain point, you just like either I keep going down this road. Or I start following where I need to go and be intelligent about it. But that's exactly what I did until I finally closed down my post house. And I haven't done post since after indie film muscle and all that stuff, you know, took off. But there's that, but I was 20 years doing that.

Chris Sparling 1:21:24
So it's it took me a long time to get to that place. Yeah, but the thing you did clearly is that it afforded you the opportunity to, you know, maybe it kind of at times was like causing mental burnout and created an obstacle there. But at least a forgery the opportunity to do stuff you want to do short. Again. Yeah, yes. Right. I mean, right, we all have, but it's a different world. Now, obviously, the technology is there, you can do stuff very, very inexpensively now, which is great. Which is even more the reason why people shouldn't could be doing it. But what I would add to on top of the hopefully worthwhile thing I just said about the job is I if you if you get a job in the industry great. And I think there's obviously 1000 great reasons why you should. If you don't if that's not the path you take, I would have told myself again, my degrees in criminal justice. I've yet to really use them in a meaningful way. I would have, I could go back, I would say Chris, alright, tell me what you want to do. I want to be a filmmaker. Okay. At the time film, school wasn't an option for me. Okay. Well, then what I would say is, go major in business. Go learn how business Oh, God bless. Yes. Yes. And, and go and then take take, what courses you can take and film, whatever ones are available, go take filmmaking content. But if if you can get an understanding of how business works, it won't just be you just map that understanding on to this business, because that's what it is. And it'll just kind of like create this. Almost like a it's like, it decodes it for you, in a way I feel. Because if you don't, if you look at it strictly from the view of the artists, and you look at it strictly from the view of like the why, like the pie or wide eyed kid that wants to get in the candy shop, but you don't recognize that there's a that candy shop is a business and the people that run that candy shop want to make a profit. And it's not just about you know what I mean? So it's like it's not to to pop the balloon for people and to take away the the Hooray for Hollywood stuff. That's, that's what makes it a cool business. Right? But it's still a business, it's still a job. And I think I would have to do it all over again, that I think would have helped me immensely, and probably would have shortened the journey if it will that if you will, like it would shorten the time it took to finally get there.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:51
And last question, What lesson took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? This is no this is exactly is that I forever did not

Chris Sparling 1:24:03
read screenplays. So like, I'm talking like maybe five years into thinking I'm a screenwriter, where I you know, I, I would once in a great while, open up someone else's screenplay. You know, and read the books, etc, etc. But it wasn't until I remember I was I got a job. Working at a production company in New York. I was living in Connecticut briefly at the time and as a reader, you know, I get paid like nothing and then I did for a screenplay competition at certain point. And so now all of a sudden is my job. Like I had to read screenplays and read screenplays. And I was like, you could just start to see why something works and why it doesn't. And it just I feel just took my writing from wherever it capped out at to somewhere new. And I mean, to be fair to myself when I again, starting out probably presumably around the same time. It's not like today where you can just find any scripts you want like that online. You know Like you had to actually go find physical scripts somehow someway in being in Rhode Island's like, how do you do that?

Alex Ferrari 1:25:05
Right?

Chris Sparling 1:25:07
So, so again, people listening to this now might be like, yeah, no shit dude, why would I but at the same time, I still find it's amazing to me where I talk to a lot of writers young or old with kind of coming up. And I can't impress upon that enough upon them because it's amazing how many times people don't where it's still like, Oh yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 1:25:28
do once in a while. It's like no man, read like one a week, at least, at least at least. And read and read and read the Masters you know, Shane Black and Sorkin and Tarantino and watch what these guys do and how they, like I've said so many times the Haiku of writing a screenplay, screenplay writing, because you got to do so much in such a little amount of space. And see how they describe a scene in a movie, watch the movie and see how they wrote it. And, and you Okay, so I don't need to tell you about the cover of the book on the shelf in the back. And the description.

Chris Sparling 1:26:03
Because you don't you don't know. I mean, it's like you don't write that shit. You just think all right, I just have to describe what's going on. So I'm going to write everything and new Yeah, that is the lesson for sure thing or whatever the question was that

Alex Ferrari 1:26:16
lesson. And I have to ask you, this is out of morbid curiosity, three of your favorite films of all time

Chris Sparling 1:26:23
to graduate. Excellent. Predator. Oh, God. Amazing. And probably Star Wars fan of the day.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:33
I can we can we just take a moment to appreciate how predators arguably one of the best action movies ever written and never shot ever shot. Just hold it holds today. You can watch it and it's not dated. Because it's basically all in the jungles, even though it took place in the 80s. Yeah, that's true. It's still guns and a bunch of muscle bound dudes just and the predator still looks good. There's nothing janky about it.

Chris Sparling 1:26:57
Nope. No, it is the movie that anytime. If you catch it on, I'm watching it. It's like what it's no matter what I'm watching that movie. It's Yeah, it's phenomenal. I mean, it's in the graduate. For me, though, I may kind of just elaborate a little bit. I remember when. So my very, very first year of college, I went to Providence College part time because I didn't know I'm giving you more efficient use asked me but I was like, I love like the question. I wanted to be a filmmaker or this or that. And I didn't want to do that. And I looked at Rhode Island School design at the time, which is afterward government school, but there really weren't many film classes there yet. And they were kind of art school film classes, which I'm not knocking but they weren't like, how do you make a movie film class? And I saw the Providence College had a film, I think like film theory class, or whatever it was. And, you know, up in that point, I was like a typical 18 year old kid and you know, like most kids, like I'd watched movies like predator those like the movies. That's what I watched all the time. had no real film literacy beyond that. And, and we had to, you know, that's not obviously what we were watching in this movie. We were watching like black narcissists. And the quiet man and right, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:28:13
Raphael red shoes, red shoes. Yeah.

Chris Sparling 1:28:18
So, I'd like doubling down today, like, cracking up my world a little bit, but none of those movies. Even Citizen Kane, honestly, none of those. Did it for me, like watching the graduate were changed my rock my world as an as like an 18 year old kid watching this sitting there in this classroom, and it was night classes with all adults. Right? And I'm like this kid. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, I've never seen a movie like this before. Really like this, to me was where, you know, I was never a fan. And again, teach there when I was never a fan of older, older Hollywood films, where the acting is so stilted, and it felt so unreal. utricle Yeah, right. Yeah. I felt like booth. But seeing the graduate even though it's, it was like, Whoa, what is this what was going on in this era? And that kind of cracked open my world and then wanting to see all the great 70s thrillers then and then like then getting close to like French New Wave, which would follow and Godard and like, it just kind of changed the game for me. So I'm sorry, really, really going on with a long winded

Alex Ferrari 1:29:22
answer. But Well, two things one, I remember watching the graduate on LaserDisc Criterion Collection. And I remember because it was before. There's no film school for me at the time. I was listening to a college professor who was on the commentary track explaining and analyzing graduate which is one of the best commentaries I've ever heard. It was brilliant. It was such a brilliant film. And for me, that film was Seven Samurai. I saw seven. Yeah, I saw some Samurai I was like, what what's going on here? Like how is this how I still argue that No one could frame an image just frame. Nothing as a camera movement, just the composition was at a level that you just can't grasp. That's why Spielberg, Lucas and Coppola all stole from tours, because they all like bow down. Of course I was feet because you just look at Seven Samurai and high and low and you know, and Rashomon and you're just sitting there going, what's going on? It's just it was it was, oh my god it was we can geek out for at least another four or five hours. I'm sure it is. But man, listen, bro, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been awesome talking to you. And I hope this I hope this out this conversation inspires and terrifies people all at the same time. In a good way. So thank you so much.

Chris Sparling 1:30:51
Thank you

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BPS 137: The Art & Craft of the Romantic Comedy with Charles Shyer

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We have on today, one of the best rom-com and comedy writers and filmmakers of all time a master at visual storytelling. I’ve been a fan of many of his films growing up, specifically, Father of The Bride. Now that I have two daughters of my own, it is fondly scary to rewatch it.

Charles Shyer is an award-winning director, screenwriter, and producer whose work includes some of the best fuzzy-feel good films of all time. Shyer grew up in the film industry where his father worked with D.W. Griffith and was one of the founders of the Directors Guild of America. 

He is the director and writer of the 1991 comedy film, Father of the Bride starring Steve Martin, Diane Keaton, Kimberly Williams (in her film debut) in this remake of the Spencer Tracy classic, George (played by Steve Martin) and Nina Banks (played by Diane Keaton) are the parents of young soon-to-be-wed Annie (played by Kimberly Williams-Paisley).

George is a nervous father unready to face the fact that his little girl is now a woman. The preparations for the extravagant wedding provide additional comic moments. Martin, a businessman, and owner of an athletic shoe company finds out his daughter is getting married, he finds himself reluctant to let go and goes on a spiral. It is one of those movies with a lot of smiles and laughter in it, and a good feeling all the way through. The film grossed $129 million and has had two sequels of it made in 1995 and 2020.

He wrote and co-produced one of the most pivotal films in Lindsey Lohan’s career, The Parent Trap (1998). It captured the story of identical twins Annie and Hallie (played by Lohan), separated at birth and each raised by one of their biological parents, later discover each other for the first time at summer camp and make a plan to bring their wayward parents back together.

People fell in love with the movie and Lohan’s exceptional performance, leading to an instant box-office success with a $92.1 million gross. 

There are but few writers who are able to master the craft of romantic comedy, and Charles Shyer is one. His films include Private Benjamin (1980), Irreconcilable Differences (1984), Baby Boom (1987), the Father of the Bride sequels, The Affair of the Necklace (2001), etc.

​​

Shyer directed Baby Boom and co-wrote it with his long-time writing partner, Nancy Meyers in 1987. It stars Diane Keaton (a super-yuppie J.C) who discovers that a long-lost cousin has died, leaving her a fourteen-month-old baby girl as an inheritance. Like most of his films, this too was a box office success. Her life is thrown into turmoil.

J.C. Wiatt is a successful New York businesswoman known around town as the “tiger lady.” She gets news of an inheritance from a relative from another country and off the bat she suspects it’s money. Well, it’s not money, it’s a baby girl. At first, she doesn’t accept until the lady that gives the baby to her has to catch her flight. J.C. is now stuck with an annoying baby girl.

Her boyfriend doesn’t like the idea of a baby living with them and he leaves her. J.C. has enough of it and takes her to meet a family ready to adopt her. She leaves but hears the baby cry while walking away and has to go back. The baby is too attached to her now and won’t let her go. Later, her baby gets into mischief which causes her to get fired.

Now, she sets her eyes on an old two-story cottage in Vermont to get out of New York life. When she arrives, the house needs more help than originally thought. She gets bored one snowy day and decides to make apple sauce. Her baby loves it and she decides to sell it. Pretty soon everyone wants some of the baby apple sauce. J.C. hits it big and falls in love with a local veterinarian.

All this happened after he made the switch at the start of his career in the industry, from pursuing directing to writing and landing a gig on the 1970 TV series, The Odd Couple. Where Shyer eventually worked his way up to head writer and associate producer, writing about twenty-four episodes of the show. 

The sitcom, The Odd Couple was formally titled onscreen as Neil Simon’s The Odd Couple. It was broadcasted on ABC from September 24, 1970, to March 7, 1975, starring Tony Randall as Felix Unger and Jack Klugman as Oscar Madison.

In our conversation, Shyer tackled the making of some of his well-known films and the changing writing culture in Hollywood. It’s always a good fun day at the office when I can chat up with folks like Charles. 

Enjoy my chat with Charles Shyer.


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Alex Ferrari 0:10
I like to welcome to the show, Charles Shyer. How you doing, Charles?

Charles Shyer 0:13
I'm okay, man. Thanks.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
Thank you so much for being on the show. I really, really appreciate it. I've, I've been a fan of of many of your films growing up for a long time, and specifically one that I refuse to go back to watch because I have daughters now is Father of the Bride. Because I have two daughters. I'm like, when am I going to actually have the courage to watch that movie? Because I remember it so fondly, like, but now it's a whole other conversation.

Charles Shyer 0:40
Right? Right. It's Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 0:43
It's brutal. It's a brutal conversation when your father and I don't want to go there yet.

Charles Shyer 0:48
When your father would daughter. Yeah, it's it rings, it rings. pretty true.

Alex Ferrari 0:53
Yeah, exactly. And, and one of my daughters, that happens to be a tomboy, and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of like, Oh, so um, so before we get started, how did you? How did you start in the business?

Charles Shyer 1:06
Well, I, you know, basically, you know, my dad was in the movie business. So I kind of came up through through the ranks a little bit, you know, I, I used to go onto the set with him when I was a kid all the time. Like, probably from the time I was seven years old. Through my teenage years, I, I go on the sets, when because, in those days, they worked always six day weeks, my when my dad was making movies, and so I'd go on the set, and then, you know, I, I, it was kind of a natural, you know, he'd been in, you know, a dry cleaner, I probably would have gone into the dry cleaning business, you know, but, uh, you know, I went into the movie business and, and, you know, I was lucky enough to get into the, to the DGA training program, I was one of the first people to get into that. And it was kind of it was just starting out then. So it wasn't really well formed. But I did get I did get some experience. And then I was lucky enough to become a second assistant director. And from there, I went to work for Gary Marshall and Jerry Belson. And that kind of sprung me into a whole trajectory of, of writing, and I was their assistant, you know, right, I was pretty Marshall's assistant on the show called Hey, landlord, and basically you I was like, 22 years old, probably. But my job was basically, you know, do their Christmas shopping, get their cars, cars washed, you know, by implied cycles, and shit like that. And then for that trade off, I got to sit in on story meetings and stuff like that, and they welcome me to do that. And they were very, very, they're very open about all that. And, and, you know, then, you know, once in a while I give them, you know, I popped in with my shitty idea. And, and they would, they would, they were so nice about it, they'd say, That's good. That's good, you know, keep thinking. And then Gary finally said to me, you know, why don't you try to be a writer. And he introduced me to another writer and started to he actually became my manager, Gary Dell. And, and he kind of guided me, you know, through, you know, a bunch of stuff. And eventually, I became like, the, the head writer on the odd couple, the prayer, you know, and, and, and that kind of sprung me into, you know, other stuff.

Alex Ferrari 3:34
Like God, the odd couple, like I used to watch that show all the time growing up, and he also worked on happy days, I think one episode. I did.

Charles Shyer 3:41
I did a couple of happy days. A couple of Marjorie's families, you know, I mean, I, yeah, I wrote a couple of odd couples, I wrote, like, there was a TV show called barefoot in the park back then. And, you know, I bounced around in TV. I didn't really like TV in those days. It wasn't like it is today. It was kind of like an orphan, to movies, and I wanted to work in movies. So

Alex Ferrari 4:05
I remember I remember that. I mean, you never if you were TV, if you were a film actor, you would never in a million years to a television, I would be like, Oh, you're over your career is over. So you're obviously retiring to television? Where now? Yeah,

Charles Shyer 4:17
it's the opposite. Yeah, it was definitely not the cool thing to do. So you know, and people would say, Oh, he's a television writer.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
Oh, yeah. They have to put you in the box. They have to put you in a box. There's no way you could, if you wrote Happy Days, there's no way you could write anything else but Right, right. Right. How did you how did you break out of it? Because I know that a lot of a lot of writers coming up today have that same problem. I mean, hollywood still loves to put people in boxes. I mean, you're right. You're the horror guy. You're the common romantic comedy guy. You're the action guy, and you can jump back and forth. How did you break out?

Charles Shyer 4:49
I you know, I wrote a script. We wrote a script based on a book called cut and run about a young black guy who, who inherits by mistake has sent front row seats through Lakers, he had applied for, for tickets, and he got the wrong ones and he got front row seats. And he used those tickets, it was a really good idea actually, to kind of manipulate, manipulate his way into, you know, all kinds of things and became like, he used those tickets as his as his ticket. And anyway, now, it was a kind of a good script. And we, my agent sent it to Universal somehow got got got wind of it, and read it. And then they offered us smoking the bandit for rewrite. And, you know, it was, you know, I'm a guy from Studio City, you know, I never heard of an 18 Wheeler, radio. I mean, I didn't know what that was. But, you know, it was a chance Burt Reynolds was a big movie star.

Alex Ferrari 5:56
He was

Charles Shyer 5:57
huge, huge, huge, huge, huge. So, we said yes, and, and we did it, and, and I didn't work on it that long. Actually, I worked on it for probably two and a half weeks, but was day and night. You know, yeah, we're on it. And I kind of I didn't learn about CB radios. I didn't. Really I didn't. I always loved country music so and, you know, meeting with Bert was kind of cool and mad.

Alex Ferrari 6:24
And that's and that's Bert at like, for people that listening even understand that people like know, Burt Reynolds and stuff like that. But for him, there was a five or six year period, that there was no bigger movie star in the world. He was the Tom Cruise of his day, the Brad Pitt of his day, there was just nobody, even close to him. And smokey was one of those reasons. I mean, smokey was a massive hit. Man, I mean, massive blockbuster hit for it was

Charles Shyer 6:48
the number two movie of the year after Star Wars. So I mean, it was Yeah, and what's weird is, you know, I mean, I always say this, but you know, those my first movie credits so they paid us I think we got paid. I think maybe $15,000 for the two of us. So if 70 $500 each, you know for this movie that made $300 million. The gap the craft service guy made more money on the movie than I did. It's it's really weird.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
But and welcome to Hollywood I guess at that point. Yeah, I

Charles Shyer 7:24
mean, well, yeah, it's it's that the accuracy I you know, the joke about the Polish actress who comes to Hollywood and sleeps with the screenwriter. It's Yeah, you're really treated pretty much like shit, but they were they were you know, and how Needham who was like the only it was the only DGA member, I'm sure at that time who was packing heat. He carried a gun director with a gun in his in his waist. But he was a good guy. And he, you know, he was like a real shit kicker and would say things, you know, you write it all, I'll film it. And he was a courageous guy do anything. And that's why the movie you know, they had those way out stunts.

Alex Ferrari 8:11
Yeah. So I was gonna ask you how many of those stunts were in the script? Or was that all kind of just worked on on set? No, no.

Charles Shyer 8:17
I mean, I think like that. Some of those you know, when the top of the when the top of it I haven't seen the movie a long time, but the top of the car goes under?

Alex Ferrari 8:25
Yeah, Jackie Gleason said Jackie Gleason score. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 8:28
yeah, we came. We came up with that. I when I first saw the movie, like, you know, back in the day, I was gone. I I thought it was really bad. I thought, Oh, my God, I can't believe it. But then they then I guess after birth died, they did a 40th anniversary or something of the movie. And I took my kids. One of them who's sitting with me right now. I took my kids to go see it in a movie theater. And I realized that it it I saw I saw it a hold up from what a different way and it really works. You know, Jackie Gleason was great. Jerry Reed was great. Sally had a great, great chemistry. The music was great. And how did a good job man Gleason was just fucking hysterical. He'll, you know, I mean, just brilliant. So yeah, it worked. The movie worked.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
So that so after that, obviously your your name gets now you're you're a writer on a big big Hollywood hit. So then you collaborate with jack nicholson directing project and he's an actor in it. What was it like collaborating with him on that level? Not just as a you because you were a writer on that project. But how did you How is jack nicholson as a director?

Charles Shyer 9:46
He, he I think jack in those days was was off balance about comedy. You know, I mean, I remember seeing any, because we I had right we went down to Durango, Mexico and that's where pursuit. And so I would during the day, my partner and I would go to Jack's house, you know, because he had housekeepers and all that shit. And we would write there because it was so much nicer than what but but he, he studied comedy. He was very open, you know, to suggestions and stuff at that time and maybe always is like the coolest guy you've ever met. He just is me just, you know, with his shades and smoking dope and being cool. And and

Alex Ferrari 10:37
is that before is this pre is this pre or post? This is post Easy Rider, right?

Charles Shyer 10:41
Yes, post this right. Okay, buddy, but he was a big, a huge movie star and he was about to go do

Alex Ferrari 10:47
shine.

Charles Shyer 10:48
Yeah. So. So he talked to Stan Stanley Cooper kind of phone. I remember him, you know, he call him Stan the man. Yeah. You know, I had nicknames for everybody. But it was fun. And the thing about jack is that I think the challenge was in many ways he could he could keep going. Even more, we're shooting till two, three in the morning, pitching and stuff, you know, and we were younger than him. And but it was very hard to drop, jack, you know, we would start to fade, you know, if your eyes start to roll back in your head at a certain point. And he keep going, No, no, come on. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. And so you couldn't, he just had energy that I you know, I couldn't even imagine having. But he was a cool guy. And a good guy. I really liked him a lot.

Alex Ferrari 11:43
And, and then I remember a movie that you wrote that I remember was almost became part of the Zeitgeist at the time was private Benjamin. And that came out was at I think it was 1980. And I was I was very young at the time, but I remember seeing it. I remember my parents talking about it. And I just remember being Was it the first time there was a comedy placed in boot camp? Is that or was it just the twist of of a woman with with Goldie Hawn?

Charles Shyer 12:13
I think it was the twistable I think there was there was ID Martin and Jerry Lewis

Alex Ferrari 12:19
Gomer pile obviously

Charles Shyer 12:21
did a service comedy, but you know, and stripes came out after us. But um, yeah, I think it was the twist was this Jewish American princess who ended up in the army. And, and Goldie was, was perfect for that part. You know, I mean, she really knew how to play it. And, you know, her mom was Jewish, so she got it. You know, and writing it with Nancy, who's, who was the Jewish girl from Philadelphia. It just all came together for us.

Alex Ferrari 12:55
Now, how do you approach working? Because you're gonna you've written a lot of stuff with with Nancy, how do you approach having a writing partner? As opposed to writing by yourself?

Charles Shyer 13:05
Well, um, you know, yeah. For me and Nancy, we, everybody I've written I, you know, I've written with with Nancy, I wrote with Alan Mandel. And I wrote with Elaine Pope, and I'm, I just wrote a couple scripts with my friend, Rebecca Connor. What, what, what you have to have is the same sensibility. And that's, that's tricky. Because Nancy, and I just, you know, we just laughed at the same things. We love the same movies, we kind of educate each other on the movies that will that each of us loved. And Nancy really made me laugh. I think she wrote the best one liners of anybody I know, except Neil Simon. I mean, she was up there with the, with really running great lines. And, and we were just always in sync when, you know, as we, as filmmakers, had this thing, that if, if we're doing something and one of us, doesn't like if we were doing a scene, and one of us didn't agree with it, we would always try it another way. We would never say nobody dictated what we're going to do what we'll find a compromise or both of us. If one of us doesn't like it, we'll find another way to do it. You know, and that was kind of we It was kind of almost unspoken. We just were in sync, Nancy and I were very much in sync when we're making our movies. We hardly ever disagree that you really, really laugh.

Alex Ferrari 14:34
Now when you were working on with a fresh faced Whoopi Goldberg on jumping jack flash. It was one that wasn't your first was that your first directorial feature? I didn't directed penny. That's right, which was your first directorial my first director or tutorial was irreconcilable differences. That's right. Yes. with Ruth drew and Shelley long. What was it like jumping onto that set like Yeah, as a director, because you've been around so many

Charles Shyer 15:03
obviously, that was the thing, that for me, being on a set was really I knew, you know, when I was 10 years old, I knew what a key grip did. You know? I mean, I, I knew it. Oh, you know, so I was never that was one of the things people you say you're nervous about directing first movie, I, I really wasn't that nervous, because I knew I knew the menus. So well, I just was so comfortable on a set. I grew up on movie sets. So and, and Nancy and I had written the script. So that's the other thing when you've written a script, you, you're not, the actors can't ask you a question that you don't know the answer to, you know, and, and so for me, that was great, very emboldened, and also, Ryan, O'Neal was fantastic to work with whatever his reputation was in the world. He was just totally great. And totally there for us. And Shelley was brilliant and, and Sharon Stone, who we discovered in that movie, it was all it was very, it was very harmonious. And we just all really got along. And it was a really cool experience. And we saw the movie, American cinema take did a screening about a year ago. And Nancy and I went, we were both kind of nervous about seeing it again. But I thought it really held up. And it was pretty inventive. I liked it. I thought it was a cool movie.

Alex Ferrari 16:34
Now, when you were when you're on set, I mean, every once in a while, I know all directors have to deal with this at one point or another where you have the especially when you're the young director, that you know the first time director, you'll have the seasoned dp or the seasoned production designer or seasoned script soup, you know, script the, who starts, you know, busting your chops a bit or, you know, starts testing you. How do you approach that I'm assuming you've had that happen to you in your life at one point or another onset?

Charles Shyer 17:03
Well, you know, what it is, it's, it's, um, for me, when I realized that that was going to happen, you know, and, you know, I, you know, what I never wanted to do was, when I realized after the first time, I blocked the scene, you know, you have these guys in with the turquoise belts standing there watching you saying he doesn't know what he's doing, you know, and I said, I'm not doing this yet. So I, I realized early on, clear the set, just me the DP, the script supervisor in the first assistant director, and the actors, and Nancy, Nancy was there, and I blocked it that way. So nobody's watching, I don't have to worry about it. You know, and I, and the actors, then we bring everybody in, so and I and on irreconcilable, Billy Fraker was the was the DP, who, you know, who was kind of a brilliant, and a great guy, you know, and was there for us and, and had a had worked, you know, with Warren Beatty, when he first directed to heaven can wait. So he was very good with first time directors. And he was just so kind to us. And, and, and just really knew what he was doing. He was a cool guy. So that helped a lot. And he and he really did a beautiful job, you know?

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Because that's how you handle this. So you've cleared the set, did everything and then and then brought everybody in? Yeah, because

Charles Shyer 18:26
guys, you're shaking your head, like, yeah, like you could fucking do it better. Dude, come on.

Alex Ferrari 18:34
It's always that way that I read. I was, you know, when you I mean, I'm assuming, I don't know if it happens to Steven Spielberg. But I'm assuming somebody out there has gone. I could have done that better. Like, right.

Charles Shyer 18:44
This is what what he's doing. And I, you know what? I don't I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying to figure it out. You know, but you know what it is? It's like if you're, if you're writing a script, and somebody's looking over your shoulder while you're writing, you know, what the fuck, you know, you can't you know, like, give me a break. And that's why Martin Scorsese has a rear view mirror, you know, on his monitor when he's shooting, so he can see if people come up behind him. Oh, I

Alex Ferrari 19:10
didn't know that. Really?

Charles Shyer 19:11
Yeah. Yeah, I could. And I'll never let what I have, I always make the producers have their own monitor. So I'll be there sitting with the script supervisor. And my favorite dp operates himself. So he can come over and look at the playback that we want. But I don't ever have anybody around me. I mean, I'll have my son or my daughter or something like, No, you know, nobody who's going to shake their head.

Alex Ferrari 19:37
Do you ever let the Do you ever let the actor watch.

Charles Shyer 19:39
Yeah, sure. I would, you know, this last movie I did. I was so lucky, because it was a very difficult shoot. But I had the nicest actors ever that I've ever worked with. Yeah, I mean, Justin Hartley was that as as nice as, as anybody and cooperative as anybody I've ever worked with. So That was really cool. helped me through it.

Alex Ferrari 20:02
Now how do you balance, confidence on set with when you are just like, Hey, man, I just don't know what we're gonna do here, let's figure it out. Because there's, it takes a strong, strong, deep, strong director who's very comfortable in their own skin to just say out loud, guys, I really don't know what we're gonna do here. I'm open to ideas, let's let's figure this out together. That doesn't happen often, especially early on in your career, unless you're very comfortable with yourself, how do you approach that confidence and also just confidence of not knowing what, because we all don't know the answers at all times as a director?

Charles Shyer 20:35
Well, I, first of all i storyboard, I'm not cocky enough to just go in and wing it. So I just want everything. You know, I storyboard everything. I don't storyboard, I map it, you know, so I know where, in other words, I have a dinner scene. I all know, before the actors get there, where everybody seated, you know, I'll diagram it and stuff. So I don't think you have to. You have to instill in the actors confidence in you, you know, and like, what I didn't realize, like, on this last movie, I did. I've done so many movies now that they assume a certain that I know, more than I know. But so I, you know, which is kind of comfort, which is nice, actually, because it kind of will just follow whatever you want to do. And, you know, a certain times as I know, you know, I'll change things in the middle. This isn't working. And, you know, I think if you're honest, you know, they'll, they'll understand unless they're jerks, and I guess, you know, I've worked with some actors who are really been really not nice. And it makes you uptight, you know, you don't want to you don't want to freeze up, but I don't know, it's, it's, it's a challenge.

Alex Ferrari 21:53
It's a challenge, to say the least. But I have to ask you, I was asking you earlier when you worked with will be on jumping jack flash. Did you work with him? Did you work with me at all work? like writing that or anything? we rewrote the script.

Charles Shyer 22:05
And when we got the script, it was actually a drama. Oh, God. It's a little different company. And then, and then, for some reason, I don't know Nancy, and I were kind of arrogant. In those days. We didn't want to put our name or our names aren't on our Didn't we use pseudo names? You did

Alex Ferrari 22:23
you? Did you pseudo names? Yeah. But it's on your IMDb but if you did use a pseudo

Charles Shyer 22:26
name, which was so ridiculous. But, you know, I don't even know I know that. That that the first director who did it was Howard ZIF, was on it with directed private Benjamin and directed another movie I did called housecalls, with Walter Matthau, and Glenda Jackson, but Howard, and would be somehow didn't get on. And Howard got fired. And then Penny Marshall came on. And, and did it and I don't, to be honest with you. I don't think I've ever seen the movie.

Alex Ferrari 23:07
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Charles Shyer 23:09
I don't think I have, if I have I have no recollection of it. You know, I but I know what I was. You know, I've talked to her a few times about it. And she was very sweet about the rear. We did a really good rewrite on the script. But we did make it funny. I just don't know if it was a very good movie cuz I never saw it.

Alex Ferrari 23:32
Right. But it did. Okay. at the box office did okay. It did. Okay. And she actually she ended up doing a write in her career. Not too bad. Not too bad. Now, what is your approach? With directing actors? How do you pull that those performances out? Especially comedy, which is so difficult? I mean, obviously, casting is a very big part of that. But how do you kind of, you know, corral or pull those, those performances out?

Charles Shyer 23:58
castings kind of can't be overstated how important casting is but you know, I, I mean, like, you can, it's, it's different with every actor, like was Steve Martin and Diane Keaton, Nancy and I would actually and they like this, Nancy, and I would actually go into the set and, and work out the scene ourselves. And then we would act it out for them. Literally,

Alex Ferrari 24:29
you know, so it's a step away from a line reading. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 24:32
it's a step closer than a line. I would I would do the block. And I remember we did it several times. And Diane and Steve loved it. They loved that. Oh, great. Okay, I know exactly. Yeah, well, you did, they'd make it 1000 times better. But um, so we would do that a lot. And then, um, you know, I I I will give line readings are all keep going till I know I have something that I can use, you know, it's not like Broadway, you're not coming back tomorrow night you better get it now. Now oftentimes I'll think, Oh, I can loop this reading or this intuition, you know this the way they're saying something, but um, you know, it's, um, you know, when somebody is not funny or they don't have rhythm. You're kind of up against that man. You know, you've miscast?

Alex Ferrari 25:29
Yeah. And I think and people listening, comedy is all about timing. It's all about the beats. And it's literally fractions of a second that something's funny. And something's not it's frames. It's six frame. It's, yeah, it really comes down to that. I mean, I've been an editor for most of my career, and I've got comedies and I've caught with some very accomplished comedians, who were like, Nope, that's, that beats off on the beat. And it's all about that timing. And you I'm assuming you because you've done so many comedies in your career, you can kind of sense those beats on set when you're directing. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 26:04
you know, I it's a weird thing, because I don't think I don't believe that it's something you can learn. You know, my dad was funny. And I think you kind of inherited, you know, my daughter Halle, Nancy, and my, you know, is a is a accomplished now writer, director. But, uh, you know, I mean, you grow up with a certain kind of humor, and you're, I don't know, maybe not everybody, but for me, that was real helpful. And then I always loved comedies. Like, you know, I liked comedies and I like westerns. I, you know, like, movies that took place in outer space. I, you know, I wasn't interested in you know, I just didn't dig at all you know, and still don't, but Billy Wilder movies, I always thought of Preston Sturges. Oh, you know, are those guys I mean, those were the movies I really loved, you know, where are, you know, like, 20th century, you know, like Carole Lombard. I mean, you know, but that was the thing, though, back in those days. Then actresses like Carole Lombard, Barbara Stanwyck, Irene Dunne, people who could just knock it out of the park these women, but you don't really have them anymore like that. I don't know why. You know,

Alex Ferrari 27:13
it's not Yeah, I know exactly. What you mean.

Charles Shyer 27:15
You didn't have to get them line readings. Dude. Really? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 27:19
They just they were just masters. It's like, yeah, they're just mad. It's like walking on a Hitchcock set in his prior. He's just like, you know, he doesn't even look at what are the rumors? He never looked at the at the camera. Yeah, well, yeah. I was like, yeah, it just like, just give me my storyboards. And let's move on with looking at the leading ladies, though a lot of that's what that's what the rumors were. Now, when you write do you begin with plot or with character?

Charles Shyer 27:46
I would say plot plot done really? Well. Yeah, I like this new movie that I wrote is kind of autobiographical. So I started with the character, but the plot was about my life. So it was kind of intermixed, but I would say more than not, like the hook of the movie are. Yeah, what? Yeah, I would think more. I would think more plot but the characters right. intertwined with that, you know, it's hard to separate them, you know,

Alex Ferrari 28:17
well, of course, you need both, but I always love to know, what's the genesis of the of the idea is like, I have this idea for this caper, and then I'm gonna create characters in it, or I'm like, I've got Indiana Jones, and I could be an adventure for him.

Charles Shyer 28:28
Right? Yeah. For me, it would be more I the caper would come first. I think for me. Like, what the reconcile what like with Benjamin, it was more you know, the situation and Jewish girl joins the army. You know, I have that then I can go from there are irreconcilable of a kid, you know, wants to separate from its parent, his or her parents. Alright, well, who are they? You know, then you start going that far? Who is she? Who is the Jewish American Princess, you know, our that kind of thing, basically.

Alex Ferrari 29:05
Now, how did you get involved the father of the bride and trying to remake a classic?

Charles Shyer 29:11
Yeah, I you know, Steve Martin contacted us. I mean, he had seen he had three people he liked good scene, baby boom and really liked it. And, and there was a script already written that he didn't love. And I, I remember, so we love Steve so much. It was like an honor. And he was in New York. So Nancy and I, I hadn't First of all, I had never seen the original founder, Brian, I didn't even know it existed. You know, it's not wouldn't be my kind of movie, necessarily. But I remember. So we said, Yes. Let's go meeting God. Are you kidding me? So, so we got on, on the airplane, and I hadn't read the script yet. Right. You know, I just knew I wanted to stay in Yeah, I read the script. And I wanted to jump out of the airplane.

Alex Ferrari 30:04
Was it that you just were not a fan?

Charles Shyer 30:05
I thought Jesus, man, this is awful. Um, and, um, you know, but we went in and met with him. And I think he had three different people. He was in Viet Minh ads into the grill. And we met with Amen. And he said, Yeah, let's make it and and that was going on, we went back and we kind of watched the movie, or we watched it. I guess we watched the movie The night before we met with him in the hotel or something. Maybe Nancy had already seen it. I don't know, I hadn't. And, and then we just went ahead and what what's good about a movie like that is when somebody is so clearly identifiable in their, the way they act and, and everything. It's easier to write for him. You know, so right, we wrote it for Steve, knowing what Steve could do. And then, you know, we've made baby boom with Diane. So we, we had to shoehorn into her into the script. Nobody wanted her nearly nobody. Why? Because they said that she was the kiss of death. She had made movies that had bombed and baby boom was not a hit, and they can't push and he can't believe the kind of actresses you know, we fought for and fought for. And finally they gave in. But

Alex Ferrari 31:23
you would think like, it's Diane Keaton, for God's sakes, like

Charles Shyer 31:27
Annie Hall.

Alex Ferrari 31:30
Godfather, I mean, come on, let's see that.

Charles Shyer 31:32
No, but you have no idea. Well, a lot of times in movies and put maybe in any job, your boss is dumber than you?

Alex Ferrari 31:43
You know, shocking, right? I know. Shocking. Shocking, you know, but yeah,

Charles Shyer 31:46
you know what I mean? They get to be my paws? Because I, you know, I know the most of the times when people who hated me in high school. So you know, exactly, you know, so, um, you know, it's hard, you have to end you have to have that, that technique of when they give you an idea, you have to say, That's a good idea. But how about we do this instead, based on your idea, which is not based on their idea at all, but massaging them? Yeah. Mike Nichols said, you know, executives thinking having a note is a creative. It's a creative, you know, thing, and it's not really I mean, anybody can have notes. But um, yeah, it's hard. It's, you know, you got to play the game.

Alex Ferrari 32:36
But you got, so you obviously got Diane in, but like, so working with someone like Steve, who at that time, I think he was at the height of it's part of his powers as well. He was a huge star at the time. You know, how much of how much was he riffing on set? Because I mean, he's, I mean, he's, he

Charles Shyer 32:53
always, he's a very, very polite person. So he would always say to us, when you have what you want, when you have it the way you want it, like we're shooting the scene, when you have it the way you want it. Tell me because I have an idea, you know, and then he would do his idea, which was invariably better than anything we had. And every time it was his idea, it's in the movie.

Alex Ferrari 33:15
Oh, really?

Charles Shyer 33:16
Funny. But he never would, would say, what he always wanted us to get what we wanted first, and then he would do it, which is kind of it's a

Alex Ferrari 33:26
smart way of approaching it. Because if you like him, or Robin Williams, or someone like that, that just are just spewing genius constantly. And then you're like I because I've heard I've spoken to many people who've worked with Robin. I'm like, how did you handle Robin on set? And like you don't you just get them? You get what you want once and then you just let them loose? Because it's just again, most of the time what, Robin?

Charles Shyer 33:51
hold it hold it? Yeah. Because they're, they're better than you. I mean, yeah, you deal with it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:59
you're working with geniuses. I mean, yeah, yeah. It's Steve, is that Steve is that guy?

Charles Shyer 34:03
Yeah. And he was also really sweet about everything. So I mean, that was, it was really kind of he did anything that role fitting like your glove. Oh, you know, I

Alex Ferrari 34:14
mean, it's remarkable. And then Kimberly, the daughter, the story was that she came in as a friend of somebody who was auditioning, and then No,

Charles Shyer 34:24
that's not really true. I you know, she was going to Northwestern at the time. And she, you know, she was like, I don't know if she'd even done anything. She had done nothing. She said nothing. No, but and a lot of a lot of women who became stars, either, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, Scarlett Johansen, a lot of people audition for that role, but none of them seemed exactly right. And then Kim came in. And I don't know she just ring the bell for us. It was like Lindsey and Parent Trap. She just felt right She was innocent. And we kind of wanted to an unknown. And I don't know if you ring the bell for us. That's what Lubitsch used to say.

Alex Ferrari 35:10
It's just like it. There's a thing that you can't, you can't quantify. When you when the, when the right actress or actor walks in. It's nothing that you can explain you just like, but that's just the That's just it. And then I'm assuming when they got together with Steve and Steve was like, well, this is obviously this is

Charles Shyer 35:29
Yeah, we screen tested or I know with Steve maybe with Diane too I think with Steve for sure. And yeah, it was just she was right. But you're you're right. When when you've had that feeling, just go with it.

Alex Ferrari 35:42
Listen to the gut. Listen to don't ever. Oh, my God is that is that like the best advice you can give somebody right now is just like, Listen to your gut. Because I've I've not listened to my gut so many times in my career. And I've always, I've always, it's always screwed me.

Charles Shyer 35:58
You know, Alex, Nancy, and I used to have a thing on our monitor that actually said gut duty. It's good. Just so we remember you. Because you're absolutely right. That instinct you have to go with.

Alex Ferrari 36:11
Yeah, because if you let this get in the way, if you let your brain get in the way you're done,

Charles Shyer 36:16
yeah, you'll improve it into a failure, as Billy Fraker used to say that's exactly what happens. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 36:24
Now after after father the bride father bride was a monster hit. Very big hit. You've already done a few hits already but fathered by that. Was that the one of the biggest of your career at that point?

Charles Shyer 36:37
Yeah, I guess so. Um, you know, we got nominated for an Oscar, we won the Writers Guild Award for private Benjamin and got nominated for an Oscar. So that was a pretty big, pretty big success for us. But yeah, I guess, I don't know. I

Alex Ferrari 36:52
it was a pretty it was I know, it was a pretty big deal when it came out. Did the doors open a little bit faster for you after that?

Charles Shyer 36:58
Oh, actually, you know, for me and Nancy. We, I don't think we ever wrote a script we didn't sell. You know. So I just honestly, I mean, we we, we were right in the high we could kind of do what we wanted back then.

Alex Ferrari 37:16
Right? It was in the height of your powers at that. Yeah. And it was the height of

Charles Shyer 37:20
a time where they made movies for, you know, not like today where 20 million bucks. 25 million bucks. Yeah, it's today. It's really a battle. You know.

Alex Ferrari 37:31
Now you got to go with streamers. streamers are making those kind of 25 million $20 million movies. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 37:36
I mean, and I luckily got in with Netflix and and I've loved working with them. creatively, financially in ain't the best situation but, but creatively they've been pretty fantastic.

Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yeah, I hear they just let you go.

Charles Shyer 37:53
Once it's they let you go. I mean, I don't you know, I hardly give us any notes on the scripts. I'm maybe that's because the scripts are good and stuff, but and they're not. They're not jerky about it. They don't, they don't dictate. Um, you know, I give me a little bit when we were doing we're doing positive bride Jeffrey Katzenberg, we had this preview, and we got these numbers like Lion King numbers, you know? Yeah. I mean, we're like, cute. But and Katzenberg said to us, you know, look, I have some notes. I'm going to give you these notes. But all I'm asking is that you read the notes and you try them. You don't have to ever show me. And if they work fine if they don't, don't worry about it. And it was like it was it was so freeing that and we did try some we tried them all. And if they worked we kept them and if they didn't, you know we did and we never heard from them again. And that was it. And that was such a cool thing. And that's kind of the way Netflix is they say to you, you know we have an idea try it. Tell me what you think if you guys disagree tell us so I mean they're very open about that creatively so that that's great. And that's a it's almost almost but not quite even trade off for not getting paid

Alex Ferrari 39:14
so but please let everybody know that that's generally not the way it works in Hollywood that you generally don't don't have freedom and have creative now you don't you know how and how did you deal like coming up with what was like the worst scenario on if you could tell the name of the film or not that you just had to like fight tooth and nail for your vision?

Charles Shyer 39:33
Well, I remember what I remember once I had a warner brothers called me and Nancy into a meeting and had notes on private Benjamin and we looked at and he had this login script with like, you know, how do you turn down two pages

Alex Ferrari 39:45
on start dog eared it? Yeah,

Charles Shyer 39:47
yeah, there must have been 50 turn downs on the on the script, you know, and by the time we got the before turn down, dance and I was so prepared and in Nancy especially was so tough that he closed the script and said, I can't do this. He stopped doing this Netflix. Really? Yeah, well, wait,

Alex Ferrari 40:09
but what did you guys do? So what did you guys do? We just said, Well, if

Charles Shyer 40:11
you do this, you know, a lot of times, it's like a domino thing. They have an idea and it affects, you know, the third act or something, you know, they're just don't think shit out. So you know, and, and they were also idiotic ideas, you know, a lot.

Alex Ferrari 40:29
might get shocking.

Charles Shyer 40:30
Like they want to, they didn't like, I remember when Kim met her boyfriend. In the movie, they were watching. I know, his go Friday, or one of these movies, one of these hawks movies and, and they wanted us to make it a more contemporary movie, you know, it's all this shit that you go. Wow. Right? But they want to they want to put their imprint on the movie in some way. So I guess they can tell their wives or girlfriends or boyfriends.

Alex Ferrari 40:57
That was my idea. That was my idea. Yeah, exactly. That was that was my idea. Oh, you see the Howard. They were gonna make a Howard Hawks movie there. But I put it at You see?

Charles Shyer 41:09
I mean, yeah, I made him use James Cameron. You know, which is funnier? You know? I don't know. It's, you know, look, you just deal with it. But you can't, you can't let them break your heart. And you can't. You gotta you've got to grow with it, dude, or your, you know, don't you know, this, this culture? It's so toxic. You fuck up. You can be gone forever. We see that all the time with people.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
It's not like me. Oh, God. Imagine the things that were said or done in the 80s 70s or 80s. I mean, Jesus Christ.

Charles Shyer 41:48
How can I wait, the directors like Otto, Prime Minister George Stevens and guys like that? Who would scream at the crew?

Alex Ferrari 41:55
Oh my god, legendary.

Charles Shyer 41:57
You couldn't you can't do that anymore, man. You know, dope HR. And you'll be you know, Joe Pesci, I had a problem on my last movie with the production designer. And, and, you know, because it just wasn't happening, and I got pissed off. You know?

Alex Ferrari 42:13
They were they were screaming they were screamers.

Charles Shyer 42:15
Yeah. And Netflix got really upset about it. Because the production designer quit. But I was glad he quit because he was no good. Right? That's one of the problems when you make a lower budget movie, you often get lowered lower quality, or cattleya caliber, lower caliber people in and brands, you know, and you know, I mean, people who make good money make it for a reason.

Alex Ferrari 42:50
There's, there's a reason why Ron Howard waits for his first ad. That's right. There's a reason he's like, I can't shoot until I had,

Charles Shyer 42:58
like, the first ad I just worked with, I don't know, in my movie would have turned out. I know, it wouldn't have turned out as as, as well without him or with my friend who's a dp, you know, I fought for certain people. And, you know, you know, they helped make the movie with you. You're not alone.

Alex Ferrari 43:17
One thing I want people to be and I've said this 1000 times on the show, I want people to be very clear about this. No matter who you are, no matter how, what age, you're at what level of business you're at, you still got to fight. Everyone's got to fight, you're gonna get punched in the face constantly. Because there's an illusion. There's like this kind of myth out there. It's like, Oh, well, you've been nominated for an Oscar, you want an Oscar and you've made hundreds of millions of dollars. Like they just roll up and just throw money at you. You feed and you can do whatever you want. That's not the reality of the business. No, no,

Charles Shyer 43:46
no. Also you're fighting you're fighting nature, you're fighting all these kind of, you know, things where the actor doesn't get it right. You know, I can't tell you how many times I would bury my head in my you know, I hate moving you know, you go I can't do this as this flipping me out. You know, or you wake up in the middle, you know, and the other thing is that you realize it's Billy Wilder said this every day after you wrap on the drive home, you realize how you should have shot the scene you just shot? You know,

Alex Ferrari 44:16
isn't it Marty isn't it Marty says if you don't look at your movie at one point and go this is absolute crap. You're not doing it right. Right.

Charles Shyer 44:24
Yeah, no, I mean, the first time we looked at private Benjamin, we thought career Ender will never done we're never we're never work again. Let's go make cookies and assembly. You know. And same with baby boom, we thought this is it will never work again. You know, and we didn't blame them for never hiring. It's again. it you know, it just, you know, it takes so much work to get it right. And then a lot of times you can't get it right because it doesn't work. That's

Alex Ferrari 44:54
right, exactly. And I just want to talk about a Parent Trap because honestly, it is one of my favorite Like my family and I love it. I introduced my daughters to it. How did you approach doing that classic because that was a beloved classic.

Charles Shyer 45:07
Well, it was more Nancy's idea to Mike because Nancy had loved the Parent Trap. The Hayley Mills. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we were at Disney anyway at the time. And so we went to Jeffrey Katzenberg and said, We want to remake it. And that came kind of naturally that was a, you know, it was barely it. Again, this was more Nancy than me because I didn't really, I, you know, I loved Hayley Mills. And I thought the original movie was really good. And I like Brian Jeep. But But um, I know it was kind of a not an easy rewrite, but it was something that came very naturally to us. And then when we got when we got Lindsay that was that was striking gold rule. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 45:55
she was

Charles Shyer 45:56
that was when she was she was amazing. She was amazing. I mean, she was 11 years old and just could act her ass off. I mean, she was just great. And, and, you know, it launched her obviously. And Natasha was great. You know,

Alex Ferrari 46:11
Dennis? Yeah. Dennis.

Charles Shyer 46:13
Yeah, sought us out. Actually, she wanted the part. We didn't really even know her work that well, but she was so. So perfect for the role. I mean, we got very lucky. All the casting on that movie really worked out.

Alex Ferrari 46:26
Yeah. And I mean, after watching that movie, when I was younger, I was like, I gotta go to Napa. I mean, that's just gorgeous.

Charles Shyer 46:32
Yeah, we shot we shot a lot of that on the Coppola state. Oh, okay. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 46:36
I've been that. That's a that's such a stunning.

Charles Shyer 46:39
It was great. And, and, and also, hey, you know, because Dean Cavalera did the production design on that we did all Coppola's movies, you know. So he got us in with Francis. So we spent time with Francis. And that was just all pretty great.

Alex Ferrari 46:54
That must be pretty cool. hanging out with friends.

Charles Shyer 46:58
And having Dean travelers through your movie is pretty incredible, too. He's like a genius. That's right. Cameron Mandy's one of these amaze may be the best production designer, one of the top three or four of all time.

Alex Ferrari 47:11
That's amazing. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions as all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Charles Shyer 47:22
Man, I don't know. I mean, my son who's sitting here with me, it wants to do it. And I I think number one, if you would? Do you want to be a filmmaker? I don't know what that means. Do you want to be a writer or a writer director, I think if he I think to be a director, it's what it really helps to be able to write your own movie. Because if you don't, you're going to have to make films that knock people out, they'll let you direct. But if you write a script, you can kind of handcuff yourself to the script, if it's good enough, you know, and and say, that's what we did with. That's what we did with irreconcilable. We said we're not going to we're not going to go with another director. What you know, you know, but it's I think it's really hard today, I guess, maybe with streaming and stuff who come up with a really strong idea. But if you write it yourself, I know you're, you increase your odds program. It's like,

Alex Ferrari 48:23
now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Charles Shyer 48:31
That that i think i i think it took me a long time to realize I'm better than I think.

Alex Ferrari 48:42
You mean, imposter syndrome getting over imposter syndrome.

Charles Shyer 48:44
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, on this last movie, I started to really feel a sense of accomplishment for what I've done, you know, like, one of the weird things that happened on this movie, this crew, the most, the thing that they were most impressed that I'd ever done, was smoking in the band. And, you know,

Alex Ferrari 49:07
that's pretty, it's a pretty cool credit, I have to say,

Charles Shyer 49:10
No, but when I was my head was when I'm not What are you talking about? And why would that be me? You know, now, you know, understand that changed my life. And, you know, like, Justin Hartley has that Jeep the car that Burt Reynolds drove in the movie. I mean, you know, these be I'm going well, geez. Alright, but starting to appreciate what I do. What I've done was was something that took me a long time to really embrace

Alex Ferrari 49:37
and three of your favorite films of all time,

Charles Shyer 49:39
I would say, oh, lucky man. Lindsay Anderson movie. Do you know that room?

Alex Ferrari 49:43
I don't know that movie.

Charles Shyer 49:44
Oh, oh, you know, I have to see that movie with Malcolm McDowell is that I would say All About Eve. Yeah, probably More of the apartment 20th century, and I think back to the future is one of the best screenplays ever.

Alex Ferrari 50:06
It's that's perfect of a film has ever been made, honestly. Yeah.

Charles Shyer 50:10
It's like the apartment is a perfect movie.

Alex Ferrari 50:14
Correct. And that's been mentioned many times in the top three here at the show up there. All About

Charles Shyer 50:20
eat the dialogue is like, forget it who writes like this? I mean, who writes, you know, you're too short for that gesture. I mean, who writes lines like that? You know?

Alex Ferrari 50:33
That's awesome. And what's your what's your your next project that you're that's gonna be coming out? Well,

Charles Shyer 50:37
yeah, I'm, I'm editing this movie. Now that will be out. It's actually not coming out till Christmas of 22. But because we don't finish until February, but then I'm going to try to do this autobiographical movie that I've written that I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll probably do it with Netflix again. So I'm gonna do that because I like working there. I can only get them to up the salary a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 51:06
Hopefully, they'll watch this and maybe they'll take it and

Charles Shyer 51:09
be good. No, it's a good it's a nice place to work though. I have to say,

Alex Ferrari 51:15
Charles, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. It is. Thank you so much for having being on the show. And, and doing it just brings so much joy and happiness to people around the world. For all the years you've been doing this man. Are you too kind? Will you let me know when it's gonna be on? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'll send you a link when it's already. It'll be on in a few weeks. But thank you again so much for being on the show, my friend.

Charles Shyer 51:36
It's a pleasure. Thanks, man.

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BPS 136: Horror Screenwriting (The Nature of Fear)

by

I was glad to take a deep dive into the deep end of horror screenwriting with writer and producer, Devin Watson, notably known for writing and producing The Cursed (2010) which was the first draft he wrote in only two days. 

He’s also written several books, the latest of which is Horror Screenwriting: The Nature of Fear. 

Horror has, among all of the genres in film and written works, one of the longest, most distinguished, and often misunderstood bloodlines in history. It is often overlooked by critics who don’t see anything more than blood and guts on the screen or a collection of cheap scares.

But what is missed is the hard-hitting commentary on society and life contained in those works.

Devin got his start working with the website, ‘moviepartners.com’ in the late 90s which was one of the first websites out there that really had any kind of information on independent filmmaking.

Eventually, he decided to try out writing some scripts. But reading what every he could find to prepare him for scriptwriting. He was influenced in a big way by Lew Hunter’s book, Screenwriting 434. 

Here, Lew Hunter shares the secrets of his course on the screenwriting process by actually writing an original script, step by step in Screenwriting 434.

When he felt ready, Devin wrote his first five scripts, all of which turned out not very good. Not until November 2006 that he wrote a script in 2 days for his friend, Phil Melfi. That was when he felt confident in his work. That script became his debut production and writing, The Cursed, which is still a sci-fi channel Halloween rotation regular.

Devin’s book Horror Screenwriting really dives into the craft of horror and screenwriting pretty deeply.

Enjoy my conversation with Devin Watson.

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

  • Devin Watson – IMDB
  • Horror Screenwriting: The Nature of Fear – Amazon
  • Screenwriting 434 – Amazon

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  2. Audible – Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
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Alex Ferrari 0:11
I like to welcome to the show Devin Watson man, how you doing Devin?

Devin Watson 0:14
I'm doing great. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'm doing great, man. Thank you so much for jumping on the show. Man. I truly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to diving into the deep end of horror screenwriting with you today. Now, before we get started, how did you get started in the in the film industry and the love of what you do.

Devin Watson 0:32
Also, while a bow bow, I would say probably the late 90s I worked on a website called movie partners calm. And that's kind of gone the way of the dodo now. But that was basically one of the first websites out there that really had any kind of information on independent filmmaking. around at the time, there was even somebody wrote their, their graduation thesis on it as like, what was going to happen. And they were pre staging like YouTube and Vimeo and things like that long, long before it actually came around. But that was that was where I really got my, my start was on the technology side of things. And eventually, I'm like, you know, I should really start writing some stuff, too. So I ended up reading a few books. I mean, that's kind of where I am is like, if I'm gonna learn something, I'm gonna go get some books. So I started out with, really, the one book that helped me the most at that time, was screenwriting for 34 by blue Hunter, because there wasn't a whole lot out there. A point in time, so that the 90s Definitely, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's where I basically got my, my, my start in that. And then I wrote four or five scripts. And, yeah, they sucked, like, gonna lie, I try to tell people that your first couple of scripts are just going to be bad, but that's okay. Because as long as you get a little bit better with each one, it's not going to be a total loss. And you can always go back later and revise them if you want. If you want to see if you can polish them up and make them into what you originally thought they should be, you can do that. And then I moved to Tennessee, and that's I was living with my producing partner at the time, Phil Melfi. And that's when, like, basically right after Thanksgiving. 2006. I wrote a basically he said, if you write a script, I will read it. And I won't. I won't just toss it in the trashcan. I was like, okay, so on that bet. I just sat down over the weekend and just turned out like a real serious one that I wanted to do. Because I had had all these ideas floating around in my head. And finally, they just all coalesced. And I said, Okay, now I got to write this thing. So I got out as fast as I could. Because I had another gig on Monday. And it's like, like, I only got the weekend. I got to do this. So I finished it late Sunday night. Phil was already asleep. But I emailed it to him. And then I went into his room and I said, Okay, I finished it. So he popped up out of bed, and he just read the thing, and came outside. And you know, his mouth was open. Because he knew I'd started it. He didn't realize I was gonna finish it then, and I said, Well, was it really that bad? So he was like, No, no, it's actually really good. And, you know, a couple months later, we actually managed to get financing for it. And that became the cursed, which is still out. sci fi channel picked it up. And they like to put that in their regular Halloween rotation on in October, but it's also available on Amazon. So it's, it's amazing just to see something like that. Get up there. And it's like, wow, it's up there.

Alex Ferrari 4:05
But then you show you and you wrote it in in two days?

Devin Watson 4:08
Pretty much yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:09
So that was like most screenplays are written most screenplays are written in two days. You really don't need to take more than two days to write a screenplay. Right?

Devin Watson 4:17
I didn't find out till after that. You're supposed to take three months and like okay, well, I mean, I did revise I did like two or three more drafts. Like the next week I would just say like Well, I don't really like how this part went so but that's mostly just to not you know, once you get to a point so

Alex Ferrari 4:38
well so I mean, your book about horror screenwriting really dives into the into the craft of horror, screenwriting specifically pretty deeply. What were some of the first horror films ever made and what can we learn from them today?

Devin Watson 4:54
Well, believe it or not one of the first actual films ever made was a horror film. So That's a I think it's called the dark castle in 1896. So, horror has been around as long as filmmaking has been around.

Alex Ferrari 5:11
And what was that? What was that movie about?

Devin Watson 5:14
Well, it's a short obviously it was. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's really just about a haunted house. Dark spooky castle. That's really what it what it's about. So. Yeah, I mean, even back then people were there were afraid of the dark, scary places. And they were like, Hey, we can play on that. Because that's what people are afraid of. And they want to get scared, but they can get scared safely by just watching a film. And I think that was was it the lumieres? I think it was the Lumiere brothers.

Alex Ferrari 5:43
Did that one. Yeah.

Devin Watson 5:45
So when Nosferatu showed up when that was the first iteration was, I want to say in the early 20s.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
Also still like, yeah, that's 20 years later. So it was Yeah. And frankenz. And I'm assuming that was, was there a Frankenstein adaptation insanely times?

Devin Watson 6:05
Yep. There's actually one from night believe 1916. That is Edison. Edison studios. That was one of the first ones. And that's actually in public domain now. And you can watch it on archive.org. It's up there and the dark castle is up there. Well, it's as much of it is could be found and restored, is available out there as well. And people have actually taking those Nosferatu. And since it's in public domain, they've done all kinds of things to it. Like they've added their own film score. So like you want to hear it with, like the classical organ pieces you want to hear with an orchestra or you want to hear it with like goth metal. Somebody did a goth goth metal version of it. That's to say.

Alex Ferrari 6:54
So, and I'm assuming they were hits back then. I mean, well, first of all movies were hit just because it was a movie. But whore really started to get was there a specific movie back then that really caused a stir? That really kind of like scared the limit like good for us. It was like the actresses like the exorcist. This is the first one of our generation that I can think of. That was the movie that literally just scared the bejesus out of everybody like it just terrified. I mean, psycho to a certain extent, too, but Exorcist is a whole other level.

Devin Watson 7:26
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that that was like the pure shock value of it. It's like wow, then bad enough that Billy Graham says there's the devil is in the celluloid? I can I've seen it.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Jesus, literally Jesus.

Devin Watson 7:43
Yeah, I think no, Serato was definitely one of the one of the first big ones because it also it plays into German Expressionism. And right was was one of the one of the big founding factors art wise, because just like, just like Now, a lot of films don't have enough budget. So what do you do you work with what you got, and German expression isn't. German Expressionism is really good for that because it doesn't rely on a lot of big fancy sets or anything. You just you fill it in, fill in the gaps with your imagination.

Alex Ferrari 8:22
Now throughout society throughout throughout history, society has really kind of shaped and culture and the culture has shaped how horror films are presented depending on what's what country you're from, what time period you're from, you know, obviously, like the exorcist played up on in America specifically, the you know, the Judeo Christianity, Christian Christianity. I can't say the word Jewish Christian. Kind of taboos. And it really touched on that culturally. How do it throughout history, though? How have how society and culture really affected the horror genre? Well, even

Devin Watson 9:05
going way, way back, you have like the ancient Sumerians, who they created gods, specifically to scare children into being obedient. Like if you go out after dark, this God is going to come and grab you and eat you. So scaring somebody when somebody is scared. They will. They'll do things they don't normally do. It's it's a, it's a one way to just like you see, in the slasher flicks. Like Friday the 13th and everything we see the teenage girl screaming and running away through the woods. It's like, No, no, no, don't go that way. It was like, Well, she's scared out of her mind. She's gonna do, she's gonna do the exact opposite of what she should do.

Alex Ferrari 9:51
Like, why are you going into that room alone? Like, why, seriously? What's the point of that? And then obviously, the Sumerian gods were then showed up and Ghostbusters. Were took care of them. I honestly, obviously

Devin Watson 10:05
and I honestly I mean if you didn't make the bad guys truly bad gozer wouldn't have been the thing that really would have I mean yeah it's it's it's a comedy but it's a horror comedy so it's

Alex Ferrari 10:18
it's a weird Ghostbusters was a weird because I've been horror comedies I assume they would horror comedies prior to that, but but Ghostbusters just took it to it and obviously Ghostbusters is a lot more comedy than horror but there is there is some scary. There's some scary moments in that like in the bottom of the library that terrified me as a kid. I was like Jesus, I mean Slimer wasn't as scary, but still, it could definitely be scary. I'm actually kind of excited about the new one. The one that's a direct sequel to the Ghostbusters with Jason Reitman's. Oh, yeah, it looks like he's paying really nice homage to him. He actually made me really miss Harold Ramis a lot after I watch that trailer. I was like tearing up. I'm like, Harold. Oh my god.

Devin Watson 11:03
I believe me. I got it. I have this here in my iTunes like, Oh, I so want to see this. I will. I will. I will go to the theater. And I will see this and I will gladly watch it because it just looks so amazing what they did. And I think Paul Rudd is somebody that could definitely pick up the mantle, so to speak. At least from the comedy side of things, at least looking at the extended trailers and seeing him with a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 11:34
that was so great. Great. I'm looking for I'm really looking forward to. And again, for younger viewers listening there'll be like, Oh, it looks like another movie. But for guys like you and me who grew up with Ghostbusters and saw it in the theater. We just like Jason knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote the script like he he is touching nerves that needed to be touched. I think that was probably one of the reasons why the the all female Ghostbusters movie got such backlash is because it was so disrespectful to the original lore of it. And many people thought of it that way. I thought it was fine. But it was just not a sequel. It was just it was something else it was something other thing that was you know that lived on its own fine. It was a fine. But I think it was it was we were we are going off the deep end and the Ghostbusters world so I apologize everybody. It's just it is it's what happens when film geeks get together. But anyway, now there's so many different kinds of horror. What are the different kind of horror movies because a lot of people just think horrors or but there's many sub genres within horror.

Devin Watson 12:38
Oh, yeah, yeah, there's, well you've you've got like the kind of a surface layer of just the popcorn movies, as I call it like where you just disengage brain and you just watch it and try not to analyze it because it's going to you won't get anything out of it. You won't enjoy it like, like watching Halloween or the Friday 13th series or Nightmare on Elm Street. The other ones you've got, you've got the supernatural type horror films like like basically most of your Benson price movies from the 50s and 60s and the hammer horror films where you got the something closer to what would be considered body horror now like Frankenstein. And you have Dracula and other supernatural being that was I was another area right there. And then you have like, you're going to stuff like a David Cronenberg, like the fly and stuff like that. Well, basically, all of his early films dealt with your body changing into something horrible, and you can't do anything about it. And that's

Alex Ferrari 13:49
the horror within almost, right,

Devin Watson 13:51
right. It's like there's this and there's, there's something existential about it as well. If you really want to dive deep into that, there's that. And then you've got, like zombie films, where the monsters are the well you think that's the zombies, but then you find like, Oh, well, they're still alive.

Alex Ferrari 14:09
It's generally the humans who are the monsters if A Night of the Living Dead taught us anything? It was the people were the monsters, not the zombies. But then there's obviously like, you know, vampire films, Ghost films, torture porn, like the jigsaw and saw movies and hostile hostels and awesome hostile, hostile films, and those kinds of things. So there's a lot of there and then of course there's the the the monster movie to a certain extent but like the killer monster movie like alien well there's there's literally the monster movie but then you've got the Halloween that the serial killer but like then the supernatural aspects of those. So like, there's a lot like Freddie is a combination of a bunch of different and Freddie just the first the first time around. It was fairly terrifying especially for its time. But then he became it literally was a comedy routine after after think after the second one. It was like Freddie's hilarious. Yeah,

Devin Watson 15:11
yeah, that's, I call him the he's the cruel Jester at that point, because he's like, Yeah, yes, I'm gonna kill you, but I'm gonna have fun doing it. And I'm gonna crack jokes while I'm doing it.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
Right. Yeah. Whereas in Michael Myers, and Jason never changed. They're always the same just unstoppable force that comes in. And I still consider one of the greatest horror movies of all time is straws is still around. It's still holds To this day, you can watch it. And we know it's a mechanical shark. And when the shark does come out, it's not a it's not horrible, but it's definitely not, you know, completely 100% believable, but yet, it's Spielberg is just, it's absolutely brilliant.

Devin Watson 15:55
Yeah, and I think that from a visual perspective, I mean, part of what scares the bejesus out of you with jaws is that you just see the fin for most of the movie. It's not until you're like way deep into the movie. Before you ever worry. Schneider's chumming the water, looking and that thing just comes out of the water. And you're like, holy, whoa, okay. Now we got it. Now we see things like 20 feet long, and it's um, it's a monstrosity.

Alex Ferrari 16:24
Yeah. And I mean, and Spielberg single handedly has destroyed a species because people are still terrified by sharks, and want to kill them and all this kind of stuff because of that movie. And it's, it's hard. It's funny, but it's horrible at the same time, but yeah, but he was able to able to do that. And you watch something like Poltergeist, which is to be Toby Hooper. But, and I was talking to a filmmaker the other day about this. I'm like, you know, I'm a fan of Toby. But Toby really never got as good as poltergeists ever again, and from what I heard from behind the scenes is that Steven had a hand in this. That's why Poltergeist is it's a masterwork.

Devin Watson 17:02
Yeah, yeah. And what I, from what I understand, Stephen was a Spielberg was under contract that he couldn't direct two movies at the same time. So, so he was like, Okay, I'm gonna go do et but here's all my notes that I had already done for Poltergeist. So yeah, Toby. Toby had help. I would think a little bit from that. But still, he was the one actually doing it. And I think the the scene where the guy is ripping his face off in front of your, the hands, the hands were actually Steven Spielberg's.

Alex Ferrari 17:39
Yeah, it's interesting. Steven has not gone back to Hoare. Even though he kind of started his career as a as a scare might even in even in close encounters, Close Encounters has a lot of scary, scary moments in it. Even he has some scary moments in it. He has that wonderful ability, but he never went back to it. If I ever have him on the show. I'll ask him. When are you going to do another horror movie? Steven.

Devin Watson 18:05
The nice thing is you don't you? You do not have to have a huge budget to make a horror film, which is why it's so easily accessible to independent filmmakers. Like we look at The Blair Witch Project. I mean, that was made for like pocket change. And the probably the most my biggest adjusted for inflation, it probably still is one of the most successful indie films ever made.

Alex Ferrari 18:28
It is it was a very successful indie film. And I actually had Eduardo, one of the directors on the show a while ago, and I told them I'm like, you know, man, I love the movie. But and this is a spoiler alert, if anyone's listening, skip 15 seconds ahead of 30 seconds ahead, but the only thing that would have made that film perfect for me, is at the end, when the camera falls, you would just see a pair of floating feet just go by. Oh yeah, that would have I just got chills thinking about Could you imagine if you would have just seen some floating feet just go by?

Devin Watson 19:01
No, that's very reminiscent of the the previous generation of found footage, movies like basically what I call the second Italian Renaissance in the 70s where you have like the green Inferno. Lucio fulci. Those guys just Mario Bava just cranking them out left and right. Italian actors dubbed in Dubbed into English. And a lot of those ended, they would end on a shot of like, the camera hits the ground, but then you see one of the principal characters that's still left, they hit the ground and their head is just like split open and one and it's like, okay, it's over.

Alex Ferrari 19:39
And seen. Now, you know, us as a species, our I think on an evolutionary standpoint, we're very fearful because we're afraid about what is going to kill us. That's just instinctual. Like, what's around the corner is that I always use the tide is a tiger down by that by the Like, is the tire gonna get me around the corner? So you're always looking for that kind of fear thing, where in your opinion does fear come from in our species as a general statement?

Devin Watson 20:10
Believe it or not, I believe, I believe that is a survival trait. It's what kept us kept us alive as a species. Although now we can actually use that we can leverage that as screenwriters to really play on it. And it's like, oh, you're afraid of this? Okay. We're gonna we're gonna really, people are afraid of clowns because of it. But people were already afraid of clowns, even before it came around. But I mean, to be fair, clowns.

Alex Ferrari 20:41
Yeah, are are an abomination and need to be stopped.

Devin Watson 20:46
Oh, yeah. Trust me, seeing seeing that clown and poltergeists from behind them. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 20:54
All right. So let's, let's, before we start, let's just go over here. The scariest moment of my youth was sleeping over at a friend's house, who had HBO because we didn't have HBO, because that's only for rich people. And he was and I walked in and they're like, What are you watching? I'm, like, are watching this film called poltergeists. And I sat there for three minutes. And it was a scene where the little kid got taken down by the clown, the the life size, whatever the you know, kid size clown and took him under the bed. That's still to this day terrifies me. Not the clowns. I mean, I don't like lose my mind. If I see a clown. I'm like, dude, that's just Dude, you're a grown ass, man. Stop it. It just I'm sorry for all the clowns out there. I can't I just can't. It just No. But I went home that night. Other than the next day, I went home and I had a Sylvester, like for Sylvester and Tweety, which was about the same size as that clown. So then I put them in the corner. And I aimed all my GI Joes and Transformers with guns aimed at him in his half circle. So I could go to sleep. And then my mom walked in. She's like, Alex, what's, what does Sylvester Do you? Like when um, you don't want to know he's just shady. It's not It's not what he's done is what he's going to do what he has the potential of doing for me. And this is prior to Chucky or anything like that. I only imagine if I would have said something like Chucky, when I was that age. But continue, sir, I'm sorry. You are giving your fear where fear comes from?

Devin Watson 22:27
Yeah, where fear comes from? Yeah, it's it's a base survival instincts. If something scares you the fight or flight response, most the time it's flight, like, get me out of here. I want to want to get away from this. And then what is like Stephen King can do is they tap into a very universal fear of something. Like for him. He's like the fear of clowns. That's one thing. Fear, he has a fear of mice or rats. So you got something like graveyard shift your things, your stories like that. And that's where I try to teach people in book is like, start with what scares you. And try to understand why it scares you. And it all just comes from a lot of it just stems from the unknown. It's like, I don't know what that is, but it seems really scary. So I'm gonna stay away from it. So if you can tap that, especially with yourself, you've got to be kind of honest with yourself, like what really scares you. And that's even just straight up jumpscares which I think are kind of a cheap thing to do. I don't mind if a movie does it, like once or twice?

Alex Ferrari 23:39
Yes. Yeah, it's fun. It's a rollercoaster ride. It's a job. It's a drop,

Devin Watson 23:43
right? But if you're relying on that constantly, throughout your, your film, I mean, it's gonna lose, it's gonna lose its, its efficacy, it's not going to the 10th time around, it's not not as good as like the first time I was kind of like saying the same joke over and over and over again. It just stops getting funny.

Alex Ferrari 24:00
Right? Or the villain never dies and just keeps coming back and keeps going. That's what I love about scream that just literally just poked fun at all the tropes while doing them. While doing them. It was it was absolutely brilliant work. And I think that's one of the things I think he's talking about tapping into universal fears. m Night Shyamalan his new movie old. I mean, that's terrifying. Yeah. I mean, it's like you You walk in and you're like, Oh, my God, I'm I'm growing older. As as we speak rapidly. That is a terrifying. Has that ever been in cinema before? I don't think it has.

Devin Watson 24:36
No, I don't really well. There's.

Alex Ferrari 24:40
I mean, there's elements of it, but not like that. Right?

Devin Watson 24:41
Not not at that rate or speed or anything like that worse.

Alex Ferrari 24:47
Well, what's his name? What's the famous book a portrait of Dorian Gray. It says it has a similar fear of aging.

Devin Watson 24:56
Right, right. Which that goes back way, way back. So Yeah, but yeah, that's if you can tap that there's this existential dread of like, this is inevitable, it's happening to you. And you cannot get away from it that that can terrify so many people just by saying, Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it.

Alex Ferrari 25:17
But like the fly like you were saying Cronenberg like the fly, it is something that's like you are turning into a monster. Right? We have noticed like, again, tapping into Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde again at that point, to a certain extent.

Devin Watson 25:30
Yeah. And when you all the time period, okay, so Cronenberg has vehemently denied in connection with being an allegory for AIDS. But it was very much in the forefront of people's minds that like, okay, because there was at that was mid 80s. And that's exactly

Alex Ferrari 25:49
when it exploded. Yeah.

Devin Watson 25:50
Yeah. So people were like, automatically connecting that in their minds, say, yeah, this is, this could very well be a story about somebody with AIDS, or an allegory about it. And he's like, No, no, it's not really about that. But yeah, you could easily make the connections yourself in your mind. And that's one thing that good work could do is your audience can find connections that you've never thought of, with things like 90 of the Living Dead. A lot of people make the the original night of living dead make the connection, that it was about mindless consumerism. Just people like ricambi were becoming zombies. You know, they can find some greater social message inside of a horror film that on its surface. Yeah, it's about zombies and people holed up in a house and fighting with each other. But

Alex Ferrari 26:39
I think George actually, Romero made that even more clear. Is it Donna the dead or when it was in the mall? Yeah. I mean, he literally was not hiding and

Devin Watson 26:50
yeah, he's like, Okay, I'm gonna run with this now. You say it is okay. Exactly, exactly. And then you've got I mean, one seem to me that always sums up existential dread is this there's a scene in the original alien when Lambert is cornered. And Parker's just been killed. And it's just very slowly showing this thing creeping towards her. This look on her face, like, Oh my God, this thing's gonna kill me. And you see its tail just go between her legs and upper back. And it's just very, very slowly shot. And then you and then right at the end of it, you hear her scream? And then the next thing you know all you can hear is her just breathing really rapidly over the speaker system in the in the ship and then and then you hear the thing, the the alien just make a mega noise and she screams one last time. And that's it. And all you're hearing at that point is just rippling running down the hallway. And that's it. It's like, okay, we know she's dead now. But that was like her biggest fear was that thing killing her? Because she was freaking out. Long before that happened is like yeah, it's almost like she was the course she was speaking for the audience like, Oh, yeah, we're not kidding. That thing. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 28:09
Yeah. And alien and alien itself is a masterwork in in horror, and genre smashing with the sci fi. I think it's, I'm not sure if it was a first sci fi horror, but it definitely is the granddaddy of it. Yeah.

Devin Watson 28:25
Yeah, definitely. I think without that, because it was the haunted house in space idea, where you've got this thing working around it set. It really put a lot of concrete rules. Not really solely concrete. But you've got these rules of like, you don't have to show the entire creature because your audience's imagination is going to fill it in for you. And it's like, okay, we don't need such a huge budget to show this thing. And like, this thing looks terrifying. I think without that, without alien, we probably would not have had event horizon. Because they're both the haunted house in space kind of ideas, but instead of an alien monster running around you, the ship itself is haunted, and went to hell, or something approximating it.

Alex Ferrari 29:12
Right. And then the sequel, which was just alien on steroids, which is aliens James Cameron's masterpiece is another genre, you know, clashing with his action horror, which you don't see as much action or anymore. I mean, you did a little bit now with with Zack Snyder's new zombie film that came out.

Devin Watson 29:35
Yeah, it's I think it's harder. It's not just harder to put together but with action you've got, you know, stunts, explosions, Pyro, you've got the whole nine yards and it just ratchets up the difficulty level shooting with also budgets as well. And yeah, aliens again. It's like, wow, that was incredible. I didn't think they could actually do do Really good sequel. It's like, okay, we're just gonna go in this other direction. And then alien three came around and Fincher to get kind of back to the original roots, which was

Alex Ferrari 30:13
that house, it was a haunted house, I would have loved to actually see his version, not just version, I would love to see a Dave a real David Fincher Director's Cut, which I don't think he'll ever, ever do, because he hated that process. So it almost drove through almost he almost left the business. But thankfully, he went on and gave us seven, and fight club and so on, and so on, and so on and so on. Now, in your book, you talk about the talking head problem, what is the talking head problem?

Devin Watson 30:44
Okay, the talking head problem is where you're just running dialogue. And just like constantly just talking back and forth. It's really easy to fall into that trap, where you just have the characters talk about things to tell the audience what's going on. And you don't have to I mean, a screenplay is showing not telling, it's a screen play. So that's where a lot of especially first time writers they fall down, is they just go very dialogue heavy. And in a horror film, it's more about just, you know, here's to here's to what the audience added up to four. And that really can help. Well, I mean, look, look at how much dialogue is in a nightmare. The original Nightmare on Elm Street. Not a lot. Freddy doesn't even talk Really? I mean, you know, he's just

Alex Ferrari 31:36
Yeah, he did. Yeah, he didn't come he didn't get his personality till the second one. Really? Right.

Devin Watson 31:40
Yeah. And it's the same thing with Halloween, Michael Myers never talked at all. And that's makes them all the scare here. But and same thing with Jason never talked at all really? Unless you count the very end of Manhattan. But we we try not to think about Manhattan.

Yeah. That was one of those ones that's like that, that ending? I can't figure it out.

Alex Ferrari 32:06
I remember when it came out. I was like, Really? You guys are just running out of stuff.

Devin Watson 32:13
What just happened here? Yes. But yeah, you if you can keep the people talking, there's definitely some need for it in certain parts. And usually it's right in the front, like, Event Horizon had that scene where they're on the ship, and they're setting things up, after they get out of status. And they're just talking about like, okay, what's happening? Why are we here, that kind of thing. And there's trying to fill in the blanks as, as quickly as possible, but just enough of the blanks where you, the audience can start to piece things together more easily later.

Alex Ferrari 32:55
Right? in a movie, like the thing. Which is another one of those that there's just a bunch of people locked in place. And there I don't remember there being a talking head issue there. But there definitely is some talking heads in there.

Devin Watson 33:09
Yeah, yeah. And it's but it's, it's spread out. And it's, it's very, they're not like going on for page after page after page. They're just, there's like, Okay, we got to do this right now. And most of the dialogue is arguing back and forth about like, you know, like, Well, okay, Who, who, who led all the blood out of the, of the storage, and like, Where's the keys and all this kind of stuff? It's, it's more like them trying to figure out the mystery all amongst themselves, but the paranoia levels are just going up and up. No. Well,

Alex Ferrari 33:39
one thing that I, I love one little tip I I have gotten from James Cameron films, and he's the one that said it very clearly in the Terminator is when you have backstory, that you need to tell the audience instead of two people sitting down at a table telling you like, Well, you know, yeah, there's from the future. And you know, there's a killer robot after you it's a cyber, instead of that, do it with inaction. Yep. Which is a great way to do it. Yep,

Devin Watson 34:11
calories did that. While they were being chased by the Terminator. He was like, Yes, Sue, come with me if you want to live and get in the car, and they're running away from that thing. So right. Yeah, and by the time Terminator two runs or comes around, and you got the T 1000. chasing them, there's no talking at that point. Cuz like, we know what's going on now.

Alex Ferrari 34:30
Right? But that's but that's the thing so many people tell. But you know, you're just here to, you know, just dialogue that just sitting there just like, Oh, God, I don't want to, I mean, you need this backstory, or else the movie doesn't work, but it has to be done in an entertaining fashion. So while you're running away from a monster or something like that, if you can tell if there is absolute necessity for you to tell the backstory of something. If you could do it with inaction. god it's so much it's more entertaining. Always good.

Devin Watson 34:58
If you're gonna have to explain something you At least give them something to do. So it doesn't look so boring. And it's like, oh yeah, they're doing something important that's going to help advance the plot somewhere. But at the same time, they're also giving information but not in an, in a so direct way. So that that really helps. really helps keep your audience from falling asleep for one thing.

Alex Ferrari 35:21
And the other thing I can't stand when I'm watching not only horror movies, but horror movies in general screenwriting, is when there's so on the nose with stuff, like I know, like, I know, like, if you and me are in a scene and you meet our brothers, and we really need to talk about that we're brothers, or that we, that the story is reliant that we that the audience knows that you and I are related. You know, you don't go Hi, brother, how are you from the same mother? Like you know that but I've seen that as opposed to doing something in the dialogue that's like, Oh, you know, cuz you're always mom's favorite. That that one line says, okay, that's established that we're brothers now as opposed to saying, Hello, brother.

Devin Watson 36:02
Yeah, well, good line about that. It's the beginning of the abyss ahead here. He gets off when he gets off the video call with with his wife, but yes, that point we don't know that he's like, got a Mitch and then the other guy says probably shouldn't married her then. So such a brilliant

Alex Ferrari 36:23
line and Cameron has and I've said this on the show many times Cameron is one of the most underrated screenwriters. I think one of the most underrated screenwriters in history because he's such a predominant he's known as a director. And obviously one of the most successful actually the most successful depending on the gross numbers. One of the most successful directors of all time by his writing is his reader scripts for aliens. Um, it's it's a masterwork. It's an absolute masterwork.

Devin Watson 36:52
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I try to point people towards things and say, like, you can't Well, obviously, that's a big thing in screenwriting is watch movies, that you that watch movies, if they're good or bad, watch him because you can't learn. You're not gonna learn as much from the good as you can from the bad like, well, that's what you don't do. But also read the screenplays that went behind it. So then you can see, especially if you can get a copy of the production drafts that actually was used. So they can see what they cut out and try to figure out why they did that, why it was cut out for a long time or anything like that. Sunday, you can fine tune your process when you write saying, Okay, this might not work, but I'll leave it in and try to keep it lean and mean, if you can.

Alex Ferrari 37:37
Yeah, and I think that the it's a lot harder to learn from really good scripts than it is to learn from really bad scripts. Because when you read Tarantino or Cameron or, you know, or some of these master screenwriters, they make it look so easy. That it's like, well, it's kind of like looking at a painting by the Vinci like, it's not that easy. But yet when you watch a bad movie, and you're like, oh, that that character shouldn't have said that or the plots horrible. You learn a lot. It's a lot easier to fix bad than it is to emulate perfection.

Devin Watson 38:11
Yeah, you know, like a plan nine from outer space or mouse the hands of fate. So I like the room. The room. Yeah, that one? That one I'm still scratching my head about. It's like, okay, it got made. I don't know, really, the

Alex Ferrari 38:24
room is arguably one of the greatest films of all time, and you can only watch it with other people. If you don't watch it with other people. It's sad. But especially if you can watch it with other filmmakers, which is what I did last time I saw it was at Sundance with my crew while we were shooting a movie, and none of us had seen it before. And we're all just yelling at the screen. Why are you using the same stock footage shot twice? Is he humping her belly button? Why is there a football scene? What is going on? It's so great.

Devin Watson 38:52
And Tommy with those never going to say? He's like, well, I guess it's one of those. Well, you just don't understand it. No, he's

Alex Ferrari 39:02
like, no, this is all part of my plan. I wanted to make a spoof No, you didn't you wanted to make the greatest movie of all time. And the reason why it's the greatest movie. Now it's because you actually intended it to be that if you intended it to be a spoof, it would have died on the vine.

Devin Watson 39:18
Yeah. I can see that. I mean, I can take away a lesson from Kubrick as well. You don't have to serve all the answers on a silver platter to your audience. Kubrick doesn't. Yeah, the shining on 2001 premiered. It was at the Cinerama dome, I think. There were a lot of ala stars on the time watching it and they came out and one of them was a Rock Hudson. He said, like, what the hell did I just watch? And people were always calling or writing to him asking questions about what what did this mean and what did that mean? And he actually loved Those kinds of things because he said like if you're walking away from a film and you're asking questions and you're starting a dialogue about it, then I've done my job.

Alex Ferrari 40:08
I mean, it's the shining is a perfect example of that. I mean, if you want to talk about horror movies, argue one of the greatest horror movies of all time, even though it's very far removed from King's original work, but as a as a piece of art as a piece of cinema. What he did is is a masterwork and I always found that movie to probably be one of the scariest not particularly, because there's a lot of jumps jumpscares and there's maybe a couple but it is that it's terrifying on a psychological level. And I found out because I'm a Cooper account, that he actually went to ad agencies and learned about subliminal, subliminal advertising. So he would sneak their stuff inside of the shining that's built just to screw with a psychologically the vices know the stuff that he did in the shining, where it's just like, it's terrifying. And you can't put you can't point at it. Like in Freddie like, oh, Freddie scares the hell out of me. Or Jaws, like oh, that scares the hell they are the haunted house in China, you're just like, it's about a dude losing his mind and is about to kill his family, which is also a terrifying idea that your father could lose his mind and kill you. Like that's also a very, very Primal Primal Fear that somebody close

Devin Watson 41:31
to you that you love and that loves you is suddenly just gonna snap and try to kill you.

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Right let alone your father or your mother. But I think specifically the father figure in throughout humanity, I think isn't there some sort of thing that the the baby when it's born within like, the first few weeks looks more like the bad evolutionary so that so that that doesn't kill it, thinking that it's something it's somebody else's baby or something along those lines? It's something really deep seated, but then add in all the craziness. And then do you I mean, I'm assuming you saw room was it from two? on two through seven? Yeah. 283370. My God, what a great like you just sit there going? Well, that that makes sense. Like, I did it do that? Why is that window go nowhere? What are you doing, Stanley?

Devin Watson 42:17
Yep. Well, that's, that's the funny thing about Kubrick that I always I loved is that he was just a stickler for detail with everything. And if it's in there, it's in there for a reason that he had in his mind. So it if you find it, he wanted it there.

Alex Ferrari 42:33
Okay, you're not gonna make mistakes, you're not gonna make mistakes. He doesn't make those kind of like, oh, that just kind of fell into it. Like, no, he's, he spends three years, 456 years, seven years, prepping a film, so it was insane. Now, one thing that horror movies have a lot of is disposable characters. Can you explain why there's so many disposable characters in horror movies?

Devin Watson 42:57
Okay, so, to me, the disposable character is one who, if you can get them to convey some important piece of information, that's great. But usually you want something like the victim, like you need somebody to be the victim of something. I'm trying to remember that one.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
Well, in jaws in Jaws, the very first the very first victim at the beginning of the movie, the girl. Yeah, we don't know who she is. All we know, she's a pretty girl swimming in the ocean at night, which obviously is not a good idea.

Devin Watson 43:28
Right? And then you see her just get yanked a little bit, and then she's trying to stay up off the water and then boom, she's gone. She's there to convey the information to the audience. Like there's something in the water, it's big, and it's hungry, and it ate her very quick, very, very quickly. The beginning of the movie prophecy. That's what I was thinking of. Her walking. Yeah, no, no, actually the one from the 70s it's the environmental. It has Armand Assante in it actually.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Devin Watson 43:56
Yeah, the the very beginning you have these guys are hunting out in the woods with some dogs and the dogs kind of over a cliff with with their own ropes or something. And then you hear the dogs just like start freaking out and then they don't hear anything and they start climbing down and you see it from one of the they've got like spiel and or helmets on so they're, they're going down into this like crevasse is and you see, really from one guy's perspective after he's been yanked down in there. And he's on the ground. He's all he's already bloody but you just you hear something coming out. I mean, he's just screaming his head off as he's about to get torn apart by this mythical beast thing.

Alex Ferrari 44:45
That's insane. Now what are some of the common pitfalls in in horror screenwriting?

Devin Watson 44:52
The one thing that I've seen a lot of is it's it's actually not just horror, but it expands everything. Writing too description in scene action words like, like, Okay, look at what is it's called scene action things are happening, make it happen, don't describe the books on the bookshelf, or anything like that. It's like, they don't care about that unless it's unless it's really important that your character has red hair, and it's gonna become important later. Don't Don't even bother divulging that information you don't have to

Alex Ferrari 45:22
write in that is absolutely true. And that's why I always called screenwriting, the Haiku of writing. Narrative writing because it's, it's you got to say a lot more with less. And that's the that's, that's the art of it, as opposed to a novel where you can do a page of the book, and the leather bound glistened off the

Devin Watson 45:46
I, I, I try to tell people, the first five pages in a horror scripts are the most important. You got to get to the point really fast, which not you don't want to get the entire point is to say like, there's something dangerous in the woods, that's killing people. Okay. Explain. In five pages show in five pages, what makes it so dangerous to go in the woods? Or don't go into that house? You know, somebody, somebody got murdered in there like 30 years ago, and it's haunted. You got that first. If you can even do it in less, that's even better?

Alex Ferrari 46:22
Well, just jazz is a perfect example.

Devin Watson 46:25
Yeah. And if you keep it under five, great, and then once you've got that, then you could you got a good framework to build on, because then you say, like, Alright, how much do we show or not show? Well, the nice thing about horror is, it's about not showing as much as about showing.

Alex Ferrari 46:41
Yeah, I mean, it's got, I mean, I'm sure it's just not the first to do this. But he always said that you'll you want to hear the murderer behind the door. You don't want to actually see it, because it's gonna be a lot more terrifying that way. And it's, it's very, very true. I mean, that mean, the masterwork of psychos shower scene, which is you don't ever see the knife go enter ever. Right. But we do in our mind.

Devin Watson 47:07
And then you see the blood trickle down the drain is a masterwork. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 47:13
I mean, there's a document there's a documentary just dedicated to the shower. See? Yeah, I've seen it. And it's so good.

Devin Watson 47:20
It's so good. Just the deep analysis of it. It's like, wow, okay, that's pretty awesome. Um, the same thing with Reservoir Dogs the the ear seen? No, because they pan away when he's about to cut the guy's ear off. And all you hear is him screaming. And then later on, you see the guy with the ears saying hello, hey,

Alex Ferrari 47:43
did they actually I remember that? I'm not sure if I remember in the lore, did Quintin shoot the year and then shot that other version, just to see, or he or he's, or he's had that idea? Like, I don't let's let's pan away, which obviously just makes the scene so much more gruesome and terrifying. And it's, it's, it's absolute insanity.

Devin Watson 48:04
Oh, yeah. And that's, that's part of with horror, what I call the, like, the million ILM theory of your audience's imagination has the power of a million ILM that definitely could not pay you and not have enough money in your budget to pay for the kind of effects that you would want. But it's by simply moving it away, panning away or not showing it but you just hear it, you know, sound is half the picture. So if you can, if you can get a good Foley mix, then that's a lot easier to do. And a lot cheaper to do than say, coming up with a bunch of gore and makeup effects and things like that. It probably showed the after effects you want. But you

Alex Ferrari 48:48
know that there is a story. That I mean, this movie we're talking about a little bit of a side note here, but taxi driver, not are arguably a horror movie, but definitely a disturbing, and definitely a pretty bloody one as well. Talking about filmmakers, the lore is, and I actually heard this, Quentin Tarantino was telling this story, and he didn't even know if it was really because I don't think you'd ever confirmed it with Marty or not. But the way the story goes is that in taxi driver, they went through the the rating process in 1976. And it came back as x rated. And then the studio executive said you're gonna have to cut this this or this out, or else this movie's not gonna get released. And Marty, at that age at that time, was so distraught that someone was going to I mean, kill his masterwork that he got a loaded gun, sat in his room and got drunk with a loaded gun. And a bunch of his friends came over which were like the Palma. Steven Coppola they all came over because they heard what was going on. And they talked him out of not going to kill the executive. But then the the way he got around that, did you know the you know how he got the R rating?

Devin Watson 50:19
I think what did you read just resubmit it?

Alex Ferrari 50:22
No, he did resubmit it. But he just took one point off the red in the blue. So the Bloods a little bit more burgundy as it as opposed to a bright red. That's all he did. He didn't just change the color grade. That's it. And he did not cut he did not cut a frame.

Devin Watson 50:42
And that's, that's Yeah, I can't believe that as something that would have happened. The funny thing, Texas Chainsaw Massacre got an extra rating when it first came out. And it was like, well, it's so it's so gory. And like, if you go and watch it, nobody actually except for except for one guy gets hung up on a meat hook. And leatherface gets himself in the leg with the chainsaw. So like a tiny cut. Really? There's no real I mean, there's no gore on screen. Really. It's like got skeletons you got.

Alex Ferrari 51:18
It's disturbing. It's disturbing. Yeah.

Devin Watson 51:20
Right. It's all the implied horror of things. The implied terror of like there's a scary guy's wearing a human base for his Reza mask and he's got a chainsaw and it's like, yep, okay.

Alex Ferrari 51:32
Yeah, x rating. Now, what advice do you have for screenwriters wanting to add twists and turns to their horror screenplay, which arguably one of the best twist of all time is Sixth Sense. And if you haven't seen that movie, I'm sorry. We're gonna now ruin it for you. It's not our fault since it came out in the 90s. not our fault. But yeah, that's one of the Greatest Artists of All Time. Is there any and then of course, m night. I think he's been fighting to get back to that ever since. And he kind of I think he almost pigeon holed themselves into like, okay, now every single script they do has to have an insane twist at the end of it, or else it's not an M Night Shyamalan thing, because it was just so powerful. But I'm a huge fan of M night. I think he's, he says his missus, but everybody has his business.

Devin Watson 52:18
Well, I would say if you want to include a twist to make it, try to make it something that's going to take it to a homeowner wobbles like, okay, you think you're watching this straight up, slash reflect. And at the end, you put a twist in where it's like, Oh, well. This guy is actually killing people for a reason. Every bad all they say every villain is telling their own story. They're the hero. They're the hero of their story. Absolutely. Like I try to use a classic one I've used as Vader. from Star Wars. It's like right yeah, he's in his mind he's he's actually a good guy because he's trying to stop the world sup the galaxy from collapsing into chaos. And well, it didn't quite work out for him but

Alex Ferrari 53:04
are

Devin Watson 53:06
Ricardo montalban con in Star Trek to probably one of the greatest villains ever on screen that I've ever seen. He he feels like he's righteously justified in doing everything he did. He did to Kirk because he stranded them on that planet. He the planet was basically destroyed and turned into a desert. His wife died. all this other stuff is like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to the minute I get out of here, I'm coming for you. So you don't have to just have a generic villain. That's one way to actually add a twist to it. My Bloody Valentine is a good example of that horror genre. You can even make the villain sympathetic in that way more. Like I can kind of understand why he's why he or she is doing this. Well, I

Alex Ferrari 53:59
mean, Hannibal. I mean, Hannibal Lecter? I mean, oh, yeah. I mean, we, you he almost becomes a hero, not inside in Sansa lambs, kind of because, okay, he could argue it. But he's definitely an antihero if he is a hero, but he's not the main villain built Buffalo Bill is in the first house and lamps. But the other movies that came afterwards. He's essentially the hero of those Hannibal and I mean, it's the brilliance of that character and of Anthony Hopkins portrayal is in Sansa Lynch you're rooting for Hannibal, you you want him to get out? You arguably want them to eat some people. And it's disturbing. It's disturbing as an audience member that you're rooting for a Catholic cannibalistic serial killer,

Devin Watson 54:48
right? Well, you got the the heat prefers to eat free range rude. So it's like, oh, he's taking care of a problem we all have.

Alex Ferrari 54:56
Right? He's that eating a little girl in the puppy.

Devin Watson 55:01
Yeah, but I mean he's also has very well I guess you could say refined tastes because this

Alex Ferrari 55:05
fava beans obviously,

Devin Watson 55:07
yes. And also it's like, Okay, well he he ate that one the one flutist in the orchestra because he wasn't playing right? Because you wanted the orchestra to sound better.

Alex Ferrari 55:20
But you know, but we laugh but that's an A great character, like a great thing for that character to be because in his whacked out world that makes sense on the ending. I mean, when he's like, I'm gonna have an old friend for dinner one of the greatest ending lines of movie history. You want him to eat him? You want him that guy was such a prick. It's just absolutely a brilliant portrayal and that that won the Oscar, I think is one of the few horror movies that won the Oscar I don't think or is it the first I'm not even sure.

Devin Watson 55:51
Actually, it's swept pretty.

Alex Ferrari 55:54
Yeah. All five out of five majors. Yeah.

Devin Watson 55:56
Yeah. So and then actually, I think that tied. But it was, it was one of the first ones I think that actually got serious recognition by the Academy. And just by it's not like we go back to Poltergeist or something like that. It's like, oh, here's here's a fun summer horror film. It's like, no, this is real serious dark stuff. psychological horror. That you the monster is a human but he's super intelligent. Both Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lecter. But you you really you want to cheer on him. You want buffalo Billy a cot? I mean, that's just kind of given even. I keep going back to was clerks to with when they were parroting the whole scene with goodbye horses. With that, but yeah, I mean, even Buffalo Bill, he's he's a smart guy. So you're dealing with highly intelligent people who are also well in one case, cannibalistic The other one is just making a pseudo suit out of women and

Alex Ferrari 57:09
such a terrifying and for screenwriters listening to make a villain. Just a couple of decisions, changes Hannibal from the guy we're rooting for, to an absolutely despicable person. And in the in the hands of a worse screenwriter and a worse director and a worse performer. Hannibal could have been a throwaway character who had no depth there. We really didn't love it. The what makes us love Silence of the Lambs is not only the plot, but it's Hannibal and his interactions with clarities. But Buffalo Bill does nothing redeemable where Hannibal even when he's escaping, and he's like, you know, terrifying. You know, eating those guys and they kick the dog in many ways. And that's the things like if you want you want to make a villain villain just him kick a dog or slap a baby and he's an automatic villain, or she's an automatic villain. Well, that's what the that's what the screenwriter did with Hannibal, but Hannibal was the dog. So you wanted the dog to get revenge in many ways. You know,

Devin Watson 58:18
I I did kind of go there with the curse as well, we we had this one character that was a little girl. That was the daughter of the acting Sheriff and the monster gets her. And later on, the sheriff, the acting sheriff, played by Lewis Mandalore. He finds basically her hand in that's it. That's all it's all up to her. At that point. I was like, Yeah, I can't look it. Okay. It looks like I had to go there because I had to give him enough strong enough reason to number one, I was trying to kill two birds with one stone with us. I

Alex Ferrari 59:00
was no pun intended.

Devin Watson 59:01
Yeah, I was trying to make sure that he had a strong enough reason to go after this thing to believe that it was real, but also to let the main character off the hook because he kept thinking that main character was the one doing all this was killing. So I was like, Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to well, first I killed the cat and then I killed her. So I didn't save the cat. I killed it.

Alex Ferrari 59:27
Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests are what are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Devin Watson 59:36
I really think aliens. James Cameron script is a good one to read. Especially if you can get a copy of that Scott everything, especially stuff that was like eventually cut out. That's a really good read. longer, but not bad. I'm North by Northwest. Hitchcock. Yes, definitely want to read that one. And I do want to say read Clockwork Orange, read the script for Clockwork Orange. But at the same time, if you haven't read the the novel that it's based on by Anthony Burgess, get that to, just so you can see how far Cooper deviated

Alex Ferrari 1:00:21
it was. Yeah.

Devin Watson 1:00:23
But as far as it being close to the material, it's like, okay, I can see, I can see where he drew this from, you want to if you want to, if you're especially if you're getting into adaptations, you, that's a good one to look at when you want to compare the two. Because you have basically a record of, here's what Anthony Burgess wrote, here's what Kubrick wrote. And that's what's on the screen. So you can actually follow that path.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:43
And I watched, I watched Clockwork Orange the other day for I hadn't seen in years, and I just watched just the first 15 minutes. How that was ever released is beyond me how that got past sensors, how that got a studio put money behind that. It is, in fact got released today, it would be it would be an uproar that nobody would even understand. And he was doing it in the 70s it's absolutely remarkable, really is.

Devin Watson 1:01:16
Right. And I think part of why he was able to get away with it was after 2001, which was huge budget. Um, he was he really couldn't find because of the, you know, box office numbers and everything with that he wasn't able to get the kind of budgets that he wanted similar. So he's like, well, what can I do that I can just kind of run and gun it almost.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:45
Yeah, it's an It almost looks like an indie film. Like, I know exactly what you're saying.

Devin Watson 1:01:49
Yeah. Yeah. And, and he, he didn't have exactly a really huge budget on it. But he was because of that he was, I think, got a lot more control leniency at least from the, from the studio producing it. And then Warner Brothers was the distributor. And I think there was some problems that did get initially an X rating. He did have to cut a few bits and pieces. That's one of the reasons why the William Tell Overture scene is in is it's super fast. Because he originally did sorry, he originally did shoot it, just regular speed, but it's like, Okay, if we speed it up, it's gonna be harder for people to you know, make out stuff in there. So

Alex Ferrari 1:02:33
because he was having like, manassa tie was it was

Devin Watson 1:02:37
Yeah, was pretty graphic. Yeah, with two underage girls. So

Alex Ferrari 1:02:40
no, I didn't even realize it was Jesus Christ. That's true.

Devin Watson 1:02:43
Yeah. The way this stuff is. Yeah, the the, the book was a lot more graphic about that it was not wants to say completely consensual. So yeah, so that again, that's another one of those things. Like, here's how you can skate around stuff. Nowadays. You can release video on demand digital, plenty of platforms. And without

Alex Ferrari 1:03:07
ratings. Yeah. Without ratings.

Devin Watson 1:03:09
Yeah. And that's, that's kind of nice. If you wanted to, but if you ever want your thing to go, you want your film to go on to like, say you want to get on HBO or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or even even Showtime. I mean. So looking at David Lynch's revival Twin Peaks, and it's like, okay, that the big budget, even he actually finally got to do a lot of the things you've wanted to do with that show. And still further kind of explore the horror in that too. Which was nice. And even had his Kubrick Ian moment as well. And one episode, I call it the Kubrick Ian moment when they're flashing back to the creation of Bob with the nuclear test blast. That whole sequence is like, yeah, this is like the Stargate almost one.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:02
Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Devin Watson 1:04:07
You don't have to go and hit studios up. You mean nowadays, man with camera technology, what it is, and everything else. You can you can be a Robert Rodriguez if you want. You can. You can write it, you can polish it, you can actually put it up yourself if you want. There are a lot more alternative avenues now. Then, like, Oh, I got to go get an agent and I have to get representation and I have to do all these writing assignments and things like that. You don't necessarily have to do that these days. There are filmmakers popping up all over the place and especially like this past year. As with the with the lockdown happening and everything. One thing that I noticed was a lot of solo filmmakers were making, essentially existential horror and putting them up shortfilms putting them up on YouTube. And there were they're actually pretty amazing because it's like, all I got nothing better to do I got a camera, it's me, and I'm trapped in here. So let's make

Alex Ferrari 1:05:10
that happen. Yeah, let's make something happen. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Devin Watson 1:05:19
Basically, there's what you know, and there's a whole lot of stuff that you don't know any of, it's gonna take you a long time to figure it out. So if you're in your 20s you don't think you know everything? I mean, you think you know everything, but you're probably not going to figure it all out until you hit maybe your mid 30s. And then even then, it's not everything.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:40
No, no. Yeah. But that can be said every decade. You think you knew everything, but you don't. But I would agree with you. Yeah, it's gonna take a minute. Yeah, is that this is not gonna happen overnight, you're gonna learn a whole bunch along the way. And can you tell me about the work that you're doing with the abl artists foundation?

Devin Watson 1:05:59
Oh, yes, that is. Steven latinus is a film composer, who he's he's blind, he has retinitis pigmentosa. And one day, we actually, we talked on the phone and he said, Hey, I'm thinking about trying to do this nonprofit that helps disabled musicians be able to, you know, get not only access to hardware and software and things like that for for composing, but also to promote the work of disabled musicians. And he ended up while I and one other person Stacy, we sat down and we actually came up with a design and we built the thing out, and we're actually just doing a refit now on the whole thing, because now we're doing he's doing contests and grants, and everything else is really expanding very fast now. But yeah, any anybody that's a partner company on there, gets they offer all their services and stuff for basically 50% off like the minimum you have to you can offer 50% so once you're verified disabled person, which there's a verification process and it's actually not that hard to do. Once you do that, then you have access to all these massive discounts on software and and I think even hardware and even lessons. Yeah, and it's, it's keeps growing. I think we're still getting suggestions from people like, Hey, you got to hit these people up like okay, well, and Stephens really grown out from that, to the point where he's, he's become almost a spokesperson now for disabled musicians and don't composers and everything. And it's

Alex Ferrari 1:07:51
awesome. And where can people find your movies and your books?

Devin Watson 1:07:56
Oh, they're available on amazon.com there's the cursed and there's also that's the movie, main feature. And then for screenwriting, the nature of fear is on available on Amazon. I do have some short films up on YouTube as well that I did. And there was one I worked on it was supposed to be a pilot for a web series called asphalt she Wolf's nice, great title, which is Yeah, that was actually my, my writing partner on that producing partner help with that. And then golden opportunity which is more of a sci fi dystopian it's kind of weird that I when I look back on it now, we shot it a few years before Trump became president and then I look at it go like this is what could have happened.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:50
Very cool, man. Nevermind thank you so much for being on the show. Man I enjoyed are going down the rabbit hole of horror of war in order screenwriting and, and just geeking out a little bit with another film geek. So I appreciate you man. Thank you so much.

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