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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:10
I like to welcome to the show, Charles Shyer. How you doing, Charles?

Charles Shyer 0:13
I'm okay, man. Thanks.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
Thank you so much for being on the show. I really, really appreciate it. I've, I've been a fan of of many of your films growing up for a long time, and specifically one that I refuse to go back to watch because I have daughters now is Father of the Bride. Because I have two daughters. I'm like, when am I going to actually have the courage to watch that movie? Because I remember it so fondly, like, but now it's a whole other conversation.

Charles Shyer 0:40
Right? Right. It's Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 0:43
It's brutal. It's a brutal conversation when your father and I don't want to go there yet.

Charles Shyer 0:48
When your father would daughter. Yeah, it's it rings, it rings. pretty true.

Alex Ferrari 0:53
Yeah, exactly. And, and one of my daughters, that happens to be a tomboy, and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of like, Oh, so um, so before we get started, how did you? How did you start in the business?

Charles Shyer 1:06
Well, I, you know, basically, you know, my dad was in the movie business. So I kind of came up through through the ranks a little bit, you know, I, I used to go onto the set with him when I was a kid all the time. Like, probably from the time I was seven years old. Through my teenage years, I, I go on the sets, when because, in those days, they worked always six day weeks, my when my dad was making movies, and so I'd go on the set, and then, you know, I, I, it was kind of a natural, you know, he'd been in, you know, a dry cleaner, I probably would have gone into the dry cleaning business, you know, but, uh, you know, I went into the movie business and, and, you know, I was lucky enough to get into the, to the DGA training program, I was one of the first people to get into that. And it was kind of it was just starting out then. So it wasn't really well formed. But I did get I did get some experience. And then I was lucky enough to become a second assistant director. And from there, I went to work for Gary Marshall and Jerry Belson. And that kind of sprung me into a whole trajectory of, of writing, and I was their assistant, you know, right, I was pretty Marshall's assistant on the show called Hey, landlord, and basically you I was like, 22 years old, probably. But my job was basically, you know, do their Christmas shopping, get their cars, cars washed, you know, by implied cycles, and shit like that. And then for that trade off, I got to sit in on story meetings and stuff like that, and they welcome me to do that. And they were very, very, they're very open about all that. And, and, you know, then, you know, once in a while I give them, you know, I popped in with my shitty idea. And, and they would, they would, they were so nice about it, they'd say, That's good. That's good, you know, keep thinking. And then Gary finally said to me, you know, why don't you try to be a writer. And he introduced me to another writer and started to he actually became my manager, Gary Dell. And, and he kind of guided me, you know, through, you know, a bunch of stuff. And eventually, I became like, the, the head writer on the odd couple, the prayer, you know, and, and, and that kind of sprung me into, you know, other stuff.

Alex Ferrari 3:34
Like God, the odd couple, like I used to watch that show all the time growing up, and he also worked on happy days, I think one episode. I did.

Charles Shyer 3:41
I did a couple of happy days. A couple of Marjorie's families, you know, I mean, I, yeah, I wrote a couple of odd couples, I wrote, like, there was a TV show called barefoot in the park back then. And, you know, I bounced around in TV. I didn't really like TV in those days. It wasn't like it is today. It was kind of like an orphan, to movies, and I wanted to work in movies. So

Alex Ferrari 4:05
I remember I remember that. I mean, you never if you were TV, if you were a film actor, you would never in a million years to a television, I would be like, Oh, you're over your career is over. So you're obviously retiring to television? Where now? Yeah,

Charles Shyer 4:17
it's the opposite. Yeah, it was definitely not the cool thing to do. So you know, and people would say, Oh, he's a television writer.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
Oh, yeah. They have to put you in the box. They have to put you in a box. There's no way you could, if you wrote Happy Days, there's no way you could write anything else but Right, right. Right. How did you how did you break out of it? Because I know that a lot of a lot of writers coming up today have that same problem. I mean, hollywood still loves to put people in boxes. I mean, you're right. You're the horror guy. You're the common romantic comedy guy. You're the action guy, and you can jump back and forth. How did you break out?

Charles Shyer 4:49
I you know, I wrote a script. We wrote a script based on a book called cut and run about a young black guy who, who inherits by mistake has sent front row seats through Lakers, he had applied for, for tickets, and he got the wrong ones and he got front row seats. And he used those tickets, it was a really good idea actually, to kind of manipulate, manipulate his way into, you know, all kinds of things and became like, he used those tickets as his as his ticket. And anyway, now, it was a kind of a good script. And we, my agent sent it to Universal somehow got got got wind of it, and read it. And then they offered us smoking the bandit for rewrite. And, you know, it was, you know, I'm a guy from Studio City, you know, I never heard of an 18 Wheeler, radio. I mean, I didn't know what that was. But, you know, it was a chance Burt Reynolds was a big movie star.

Alex Ferrari 5:56
He was

Charles Shyer 5:57
huge, huge, huge, huge, huge. So, we said yes, and, and we did it, and, and I didn't work on it that long. Actually, I worked on it for probably two and a half weeks, but was day and night. You know, yeah, we're on it. And I kind of I didn't learn about CB radios. I didn't. Really I didn't. I always loved country music so and, you know, meeting with Bert was kind of cool and mad.

Alex Ferrari 6:24
And that's and that's Bert at like, for people that listening even understand that people like know, Burt Reynolds and stuff like that. But for him, there was a five or six year period, that there was no bigger movie star in the world. He was the Tom Cruise of his day, the Brad Pitt of his day, there was just nobody, even close to him. And smokey was one of those reasons. I mean, smokey was a massive hit. Man, I mean, massive blockbuster hit for it was

Charles Shyer 6:48
the number two movie of the year after Star Wars. So I mean, it was Yeah, and what's weird is, you know, I mean, I always say this, but you know, those my first movie credits so they paid us I think we got paid. I think maybe $15,000 for the two of us. So if 70 $500 each, you know for this movie that made $300 million. The gap the craft service guy made more money on the movie than I did. It's it's really weird.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
But and welcome to Hollywood I guess at that point. Yeah, I

Charles Shyer 7:24
mean, well, yeah, it's it's that the accuracy I you know, the joke about the Polish actress who comes to Hollywood and sleeps with the screenwriter. It's Yeah, you're really treated pretty much like shit, but they were they were you know, and how Needham who was like the only it was the only DGA member, I'm sure at that time who was packing heat. He carried a gun director with a gun in his in his waist. But he was a good guy. And he, you know, he was like a real shit kicker and would say things, you know, you write it all, I'll film it. And he was a courageous guy do anything. And that's why the movie you know, they had those way out stunts.

Alex Ferrari 8:11
Yeah. So I was gonna ask you how many of those stunts were in the script? Or was that all kind of just worked on on set? No, no.

Charles Shyer 8:17
I mean, I think like that. Some of those you know, when the top of the when the top of it I haven't seen the movie a long time, but the top of the car goes under?

Alex Ferrari 8:25
Yeah, Jackie Gleason said Jackie Gleason score. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 8:28
yeah, we came. We came up with that. I when I first saw the movie, like, you know, back in the day, I was gone. I I thought it was really bad. I thought, Oh, my God, I can't believe it. But then they then I guess after birth died, they did a 40th anniversary or something of the movie. And I took my kids. One of them who's sitting with me right now. I took my kids to go see it in a movie theater. And I realized that it it I saw I saw it a hold up from what a different way and it really works. You know, Jackie Gleason was great. Jerry Reed was great. Sally had a great, great chemistry. The music was great. And how did a good job man Gleason was just fucking hysterical. He'll, you know, I mean, just brilliant. So yeah, it worked. The movie worked.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
So that so after that, obviously your your name gets now you're you're a writer on a big big Hollywood hit. So then you collaborate with jack nicholson directing project and he's an actor in it. What was it like collaborating with him on that level? Not just as a you because you were a writer on that project. But how did you How is jack nicholson as a director?

Charles Shyer 9:46
He, he I think jack in those days was was off balance about comedy. You know, I mean, I remember seeing any, because we I had right we went down to Durango, Mexico and that's where pursuit. And so I would during the day, my partner and I would go to Jack's house, you know, because he had housekeepers and all that shit. And we would write there because it was so much nicer than what but but he, he studied comedy. He was very open, you know, to suggestions and stuff at that time and maybe always is like the coolest guy you've ever met. He just is me just, you know, with his shades and smoking dope and being cool. And and

Alex Ferrari 10:37
is that before is this pre is this pre or post? This is post Easy Rider, right?

Charles Shyer 10:41
Yes, post this right. Okay, buddy, but he was a big, a huge movie star and he was about to go do

Alex Ferrari 10:47
shine.

Charles Shyer 10:48
Yeah. So. So he talked to Stan Stanley Cooper kind of phone. I remember him, you know, he call him Stan the man. Yeah. You know, I had nicknames for everybody. But it was fun. And the thing about jack is that I think the challenge was in many ways he could he could keep going. Even more, we're shooting till two, three in the morning, pitching and stuff, you know, and we were younger than him. And but it was very hard to drop, jack, you know, we would start to fade, you know, if your eyes start to roll back in your head at a certain point. And he keep going, No, no, come on. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. And so you couldn't, he just had energy that I you know, I couldn't even imagine having. But he was a cool guy. And a good guy. I really liked him a lot.

Alex Ferrari 11:43
And, and then I remember a movie that you wrote that I remember was almost became part of the Zeitgeist at the time was private Benjamin. And that came out was at I think it was 1980. And I was I was very young at the time, but I remember seeing it. I remember my parents talking about it. And I just remember being Was it the first time there was a comedy placed in boot camp? Is that or was it just the twist of of a woman with with Goldie Hawn?

Charles Shyer 12:13
I think it was the twistable I think there was there was ID Martin and Jerry Lewis

Alex Ferrari 12:19
Gomer pile obviously

Charles Shyer 12:21
did a service comedy, but you know, and stripes came out after us. But um, yeah, I think it was the twist was this Jewish American princess who ended up in the army. And, and Goldie was, was perfect for that part. You know, I mean, she really knew how to play it. And, you know, her mom was Jewish, so she got it. You know, and writing it with Nancy, who's, who was the Jewish girl from Philadelphia. It just all came together for us.

Alex Ferrari 12:55
Now, how do you approach working? Because you're gonna you've written a lot of stuff with with Nancy, how do you approach having a writing partner? As opposed to writing by yourself?

Charles Shyer 13:05
Well, um, you know, yeah. For me and Nancy, we, everybody I've written I, you know, I've written with with Nancy, I wrote with Alan Mandel. And I wrote with Elaine Pope, and I'm, I just wrote a couple scripts with my friend, Rebecca Connor. What, what, what you have to have is the same sensibility. And that's, that's tricky. Because Nancy, and I just, you know, we just laughed at the same things. We love the same movies, we kind of educate each other on the movies that will that each of us loved. And Nancy really made me laugh. I think she wrote the best one liners of anybody I know, except Neil Simon. I mean, she was up there with the, with really running great lines. And, and we were just always in sync when, you know, as we, as filmmakers, had this thing, that if, if we're doing something and one of us, doesn't like if we were doing a scene, and one of us didn't agree with it, we would always try it another way. We would never say nobody dictated what we're going to do what we'll find a compromise or both of us. If one of us doesn't like it, we'll find another way to do it. You know, and that was kind of we It was kind of almost unspoken. We just were in sync, Nancy and I were very much in sync when we're making our movies. We hardly ever disagree that you really, really laugh.

Alex Ferrari 14:34
Now when you were working on with a fresh faced Whoopi Goldberg on jumping jack flash. It was one that wasn't your first was that your first directorial feature? I didn't directed penny. That's right, which was your first directorial my first director or tutorial was irreconcilable differences. That's right. Yes. with Ruth drew and Shelley long. What was it like jumping onto that set like Yeah, as a director, because you've been around so many

Charles Shyer 15:03
obviously, that was the thing, that for me, being on a set was really I knew, you know, when I was 10 years old, I knew what a key grip did. You know? I mean, I, I knew it. Oh, you know, so I was never that was one of the things people you say you're nervous about directing first movie, I, I really wasn't that nervous, because I knew I knew the menus. So well, I just was so comfortable on a set. I grew up on movie sets. So and, and Nancy and I had written the script. So that's the other thing when you've written a script, you, you're not, the actors can't ask you a question that you don't know the answer to, you know, and, and so for me, that was great, very emboldened, and also, Ryan, O'Neal was fantastic to work with whatever his reputation was in the world. He was just totally great. And totally there for us. And Shelley was brilliant and, and Sharon Stone, who we discovered in that movie, it was all it was very, it was very harmonious. And we just all really got along. And it was a really cool experience. And we saw the movie, American cinema take did a screening about a year ago. And Nancy and I went, we were both kind of nervous about seeing it again. But I thought it really held up. And it was pretty inventive. I liked it. I thought it was a cool movie.

Alex Ferrari 16:34
Now, when you were when you're on set, I mean, every once in a while, I know all directors have to deal with this at one point or another where you have the especially when you're the young director, that you know the first time director, you'll have the seasoned dp or the seasoned production designer or seasoned script soup, you know, script the, who starts, you know, busting your chops a bit or, you know, starts testing you. How do you approach that I'm assuming you've had that happen to you in your life at one point or another onset?

Charles Shyer 17:03
Well, you know, what it is, it's, it's, um, for me, when I realized that that was going to happen, you know, and, you know, I, you know, what I never wanted to do was, when I realized after the first time, I blocked the scene, you know, you have these guys in with the turquoise belts standing there watching you saying he doesn't know what he's doing, you know, and I said, I'm not doing this yet. So I, I realized early on, clear the set, just me the DP, the script supervisor in the first assistant director, and the actors, and Nancy, Nancy was there, and I blocked it that way. So nobody's watching, I don't have to worry about it. You know, and I, and the actors, then we bring everybody in, so and I and on irreconcilable, Billy Fraker was the was the DP, who, you know, who was kind of a brilliant, and a great guy, you know, and was there for us and, and had a had worked, you know, with Warren Beatty, when he first directed to heaven can wait. So he was very good with first time directors. And he was just so kind to us. And, and, and just really knew what he was doing. He was a cool guy. So that helped a lot. And he and he really did a beautiful job, you know?

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Because that's how you handle this. So you've cleared the set, did everything and then and then brought everybody in? Yeah, because

Charles Shyer 18:26
guys, you're shaking your head, like, yeah, like you could fucking do it better. Dude, come on.

Alex Ferrari 18:34
It's always that way that I read. I was, you know, when you I mean, I'm assuming, I don't know if it happens to Steven Spielberg. But I'm assuming somebody out there has gone. I could have done that better. Like, right.

Charles Shyer 18:44
This is what what he's doing. And I, you know what? I don't I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying to figure it out. You know, but you know what it is? It's like if you're, if you're writing a script, and somebody's looking over your shoulder while you're writing, you know, what the fuck, you know, you can't you know, like, give me a break. And that's why Martin Scorsese has a rear view mirror, you know, on his monitor when he's shooting, so he can see if people come up behind him. Oh, I

Alex Ferrari 19:10
didn't know that. Really?

Charles Shyer 19:11
Yeah. Yeah, I could. And I'll never let what I have, I always make the producers have their own monitor. So I'll be there sitting with the script supervisor. And my favorite dp operates himself. So he can come over and look at the playback that we want. But I don't ever have anybody around me. I mean, I'll have my son or my daughter or something like, No, you know, nobody who's going to shake their head.

Alex Ferrari 19:37
Do you ever let the Do you ever let the actor watch.

Charles Shyer 19:39
Yeah, sure. I would, you know, this last movie I did. I was so lucky, because it was a very difficult shoot. But I had the nicest actors ever that I've ever worked with. Yeah, I mean, Justin Hartley was that as as nice as, as anybody and cooperative as anybody I've ever worked with. So That was really cool. helped me through it.

Alex Ferrari 20:02
Now how do you balance, confidence on set with when you are just like, Hey, man, I just don't know what we're gonna do here, let's figure it out. Because there's, it takes a strong, strong, deep, strong director who's very comfortable in their own skin to just say out loud, guys, I really don't know what we're gonna do here. I'm open to ideas, let's let's figure this out together. That doesn't happen often, especially early on in your career, unless you're very comfortable with yourself, how do you approach that confidence and also just confidence of not knowing what, because we all don't know the answers at all times as a director?

Charles Shyer 20:35
Well, I, first of all i storyboard, I'm not cocky enough to just go in and wing it. So I just want everything. You know, I storyboard everything. I don't storyboard, I map it, you know, so I know where, in other words, I have a dinner scene. I all know, before the actors get there, where everybody seated, you know, I'll diagram it and stuff. So I don't think you have to. You have to instill in the actors confidence in you, you know, and like, what I didn't realize, like, on this last movie, I did. I've done so many movies now that they assume a certain that I know, more than I know. But so I, you know, which is kind of comfort, which is nice, actually, because it kind of will just follow whatever you want to do. And, you know, a certain times as I know, you know, I'll change things in the middle. This isn't working. And, you know, I think if you're honest, you know, they'll, they'll understand unless they're jerks, and I guess, you know, I've worked with some actors who are really been really not nice. And it makes you uptight, you know, you don't want to you don't want to freeze up, but I don't know, it's, it's, it's a challenge.

Alex Ferrari 21:53
It's a challenge, to say the least. But I have to ask you, I was asking you earlier when you worked with will be on jumping jack flash. Did you work with him? Did you work with me at all work? like writing that or anything? we rewrote the script.

Charles Shyer 22:05
And when we got the script, it was actually a drama. Oh, God. It's a little different company. And then, and then, for some reason, I don't know Nancy, and I were kind of arrogant. In those days. We didn't want to put our name or our names aren't on our Didn't we use pseudo names? You did

Alex Ferrari 22:23
you? Did you pseudo names? Yeah. But it's on your IMDb but if you did use a pseudo

Charles Shyer 22:26
name, which was so ridiculous. But, you know, I don't even know I know that. That that the first director who did it was Howard ZIF, was on it with directed private Benjamin and directed another movie I did called housecalls, with Walter Matthau, and Glenda Jackson, but Howard, and would be somehow didn't get on. And Howard got fired. And then Penny Marshall came on. And, and did it and I don't, to be honest with you. I don't think I've ever seen the movie.

Alex Ferrari 23:07
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Charles Shyer 23:09
I don't think I have, if I have I have no recollection of it. You know, I but I know what I was. You know, I've talked to her a few times about it. And she was very sweet about the rear. We did a really good rewrite on the script. But we did make it funny. I just don't know if it was a very good movie cuz I never saw it.

Alex Ferrari 23:32
Right. But it did. Okay. at the box office did okay. It did. Okay. And she actually she ended up doing a write in her career. Not too bad. Not too bad. Now, what is your approach? With directing actors? How do you pull that those performances out? Especially comedy, which is so difficult? I mean, obviously, casting is a very big part of that. But how do you kind of, you know, corral or pull those, those performances out?

Charles Shyer 23:58
castings kind of can't be overstated how important casting is but you know, I, I mean, like, you can, it's, it's different with every actor, like was Steve Martin and Diane Keaton, Nancy and I would actually and they like this, Nancy, and I would actually go into the set and, and work out the scene ourselves. And then we would act it out for them. Literally,

Alex Ferrari 24:29
you know, so it's a step away from a line reading. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 24:32
it's a step closer than a line. I would I would do the block. And I remember we did it several times. And Diane and Steve loved it. They loved that. Oh, great. Okay, I know exactly. Yeah, well, you did, they'd make it 1000 times better. But um, so we would do that a lot. And then, um, you know, I I I will give line readings are all keep going till I know I have something that I can use, you know, it's not like Broadway, you're not coming back tomorrow night you better get it now. Now oftentimes I'll think, Oh, I can loop this reading or this intuition, you know this the way they're saying something, but um, you know, it's, um, you know, when somebody is not funny or they don't have rhythm. You're kind of up against that man. You know, you've miscast?

Alex Ferrari 25:29
Yeah. And I think and people listening, comedy is all about timing. It's all about the beats. And it's literally fractions of a second that something's funny. And something's not it's frames. It's six frame. It's, yeah, it really comes down to that. I mean, I've been an editor for most of my career, and I've got comedies and I've caught with some very accomplished comedians, who were like, Nope, that's, that beats off on the beat. And it's all about that timing. And you I'm assuming you because you've done so many comedies in your career, you can kind of sense those beats on set when you're directing. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 26:04
you know, I it's a weird thing, because I don't think I don't believe that it's something you can learn. You know, my dad was funny. And I think you kind of inherited, you know, my daughter Halle, Nancy, and my, you know, is a is a accomplished now writer, director. But, uh, you know, I mean, you grow up with a certain kind of humor, and you're, I don't know, maybe not everybody, but for me, that was real helpful. And then I always loved comedies. Like, you know, I liked comedies and I like westerns. I, you know, like, movies that took place in outer space. I, you know, I wasn't interested in you know, I just didn't dig at all you know, and still don't, but Billy Wilder movies, I always thought of Preston Sturges. Oh, you know, are those guys I mean, those were the movies I really loved, you know, where are, you know, like, 20th century, you know, like Carole Lombard. I mean, you know, but that was the thing, though, back in those days. Then actresses like Carole Lombard, Barbara Stanwyck, Irene Dunne, people who could just knock it out of the park these women, but you don't really have them anymore like that. I don't know why. You know,

Alex Ferrari 27:13
it's not Yeah, I know exactly. What you mean.

Charles Shyer 27:15
You didn't have to get them line readings. Dude. Really? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 27:19
They just they were just masters. It's like, yeah, they're just mad. It's like walking on a Hitchcock set in his prior. He's just like, you know, he doesn't even look at what are the rumors? He never looked at the at the camera. Yeah, well, yeah. I was like, yeah, it just like, just give me my storyboards. And let's move on with looking at the leading ladies, though a lot of that's what that's what the rumors were. Now, when you write do you begin with plot or with character?

Charles Shyer 27:46
I would say plot plot done really? Well. Yeah, I like this new movie that I wrote is kind of autobiographical. So I started with the character, but the plot was about my life. So it was kind of intermixed, but I would say more than not, like the hook of the movie are. Yeah, what? Yeah, I would think more. I would think more plot but the characters right. intertwined with that, you know, it's hard to separate them, you know,

Alex Ferrari 28:17
well, of course, you need both, but I always love to know, what's the genesis of the of the idea is like, I have this idea for this caper, and then I'm gonna create characters in it, or I'm like, I've got Indiana Jones, and I could be an adventure for him.

Charles Shyer 28:28
Right? Yeah. For me, it would be more I the caper would come first. I think for me. Like, what the reconcile what like with Benjamin, it was more you know, the situation and Jewish girl joins the army. You know, I have that then I can go from there are irreconcilable of a kid, you know, wants to separate from its parent, his or her parents. Alright, well, who are they? You know, then you start going that far? Who is she? Who is the Jewish American Princess, you know, our that kind of thing, basically.

Alex Ferrari 29:05
Now, how did you get involved the father of the bride and trying to remake a classic?

Charles Shyer 29:11
Yeah, I you know, Steve Martin contacted us. I mean, he had seen he had three people he liked good scene, baby boom and really liked it. And, and there was a script already written that he didn't love. And I, I remember, so we love Steve so much. It was like an honor. And he was in New York. So Nancy and I, I hadn't First of all, I had never seen the original founder, Brian, I didn't even know it existed. You know, it's not wouldn't be my kind of movie, necessarily. But I remember. So we said, Yes. Let's go meeting God. Are you kidding me? So, so we got on, on the airplane, and I hadn't read the script yet. Right. You know, I just knew I wanted to stay in Yeah, I read the script. And I wanted to jump out of the airplane.

Alex Ferrari 30:04
Was it that you just were not a fan?

Charles Shyer 30:05
I thought Jesus, man, this is awful. Um, and, um, you know, but we went in and met with him. And I think he had three different people. He was in Viet Minh ads into the grill. And we met with Amen. And he said, Yeah, let's make it and and that was going on, we went back and we kind of watched the movie, or we watched it. I guess we watched the movie The night before we met with him in the hotel or something. Maybe Nancy had already seen it. I don't know, I hadn't. And, and then we just went ahead and what what's good about a movie like that is when somebody is so clearly identifiable in their, the way they act and, and everything. It's easier to write for him. You know, so right, we wrote it for Steve, knowing what Steve could do. And then, you know, we've made baby boom with Diane. So we, we had to shoehorn into her into the script. Nobody wanted her nearly nobody. Why? Because they said that she was the kiss of death. She had made movies that had bombed and baby boom was not a hit, and they can't push and he can't believe the kind of actresses you know, we fought for and fought for. And finally they gave in. But

Alex Ferrari 31:23
you would think like, it's Diane Keaton, for God's sakes, like

Charles Shyer 31:27
Annie Hall.

Alex Ferrari 31:30
Godfather, I mean, come on, let's see that.

Charles Shyer 31:32
No, but you have no idea. Well, a lot of times in movies and put maybe in any job, your boss is dumber than you?

Alex Ferrari 31:43
You know, shocking, right? I know. Shocking. Shocking, you know, but yeah,

Charles Shyer 31:46
you know what I mean? They get to be my paws? Because I, you know, I know the most of the times when people who hated me in high school. So you know, exactly, you know, so, um, you know, it's hard, you have to end you have to have that, that technique of when they give you an idea, you have to say, That's a good idea. But how about we do this instead, based on your idea, which is not based on their idea at all, but massaging them? Yeah. Mike Nichols said, you know, executives thinking having a note is a creative. It's a creative, you know, thing, and it's not really I mean, anybody can have notes. But um, yeah, it's hard. It's, you know, you got to play the game.

Alex Ferrari 32:36
But you got, so you obviously got Diane in, but like, so working with someone like Steve, who at that time, I think he was at the height of it's part of his powers as well. He was a huge star at the time. You know, how much of how much was he riffing on set? Because I mean, he's, I mean, he's, he

Charles Shyer 32:53
always, he's a very, very polite person. So he would always say to us, when you have what you want, when you have it the way you want it, like we're shooting the scene, when you have it the way you want it. Tell me because I have an idea, you know, and then he would do his idea, which was invariably better than anything we had. And every time it was his idea, it's in the movie.

Alex Ferrari 33:15
Oh, really?

Charles Shyer 33:16
Funny. But he never would, would say, what he always wanted us to get what we wanted first, and then he would do it, which is kind of it's a

Alex Ferrari 33:26
smart way of approaching it. Because if you like him, or Robin Williams, or someone like that, that just are just spewing genius constantly. And then you're like I because I've heard I've spoken to many people who've worked with Robin. I'm like, how did you handle Robin on set? And like you don't you just get them? You get what you want once and then you just let them loose? Because it's just again, most of the time what, Robin?

Charles Shyer 33:51
hold it hold it? Yeah. Because they're, they're better than you. I mean, yeah, you deal with it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 33:59
you're working with geniuses. I mean, yeah, yeah. It's Steve, is that Steve is that guy?

Charles Shyer 34:03
Yeah. And he was also really sweet about everything. So I mean, that was, it was really kind of he did anything that role fitting like your glove. Oh, you know, I

Alex Ferrari 34:14
mean, it's remarkable. And then Kimberly, the daughter, the story was that she came in as a friend of somebody who was auditioning, and then No,

Charles Shyer 34:24
that's not really true. I you know, she was going to Northwestern at the time. And she, you know, she was like, I don't know if she'd even done anything. She had done nothing. She said nothing. No, but and a lot of a lot of women who became stars, either, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, Scarlett Johansen, a lot of people audition for that role, but none of them seemed exactly right. And then Kim came in. And I don't know she just ring the bell for us. It was like Lindsey and Parent Trap. She just felt right She was innocent. And we kind of wanted to an unknown. And I don't know if you ring the bell for us. That's what Lubitsch used to say.

Alex Ferrari 35:10
It's just like it. There's a thing that you can't, you can't quantify. When you when the, when the right actress or actor walks in. It's nothing that you can explain you just like, but that's just the That's just it. And then I'm assuming when they got together with Steve and Steve was like, well, this is obviously this is

Charles Shyer 35:29
Yeah, we screen tested or I know with Steve maybe with Diane too I think with Steve for sure. And yeah, it was just she was right. But you're you're right. When when you've had that feeling, just go with it.

Alex Ferrari 35:42
Listen to the gut. Listen to don't ever. Oh, my God is that is that like the best advice you can give somebody right now is just like, Listen to your gut. Because I've I've not listened to my gut so many times in my career. And I've always, I've always, it's always screwed me.

Charles Shyer 35:58
You know, Alex, Nancy, and I used to have a thing on our monitor that actually said gut duty. It's good. Just so we remember you. Because you're absolutely right. That instinct you have to go with.

Alex Ferrari 36:11
Yeah, because if you let this get in the way, if you let your brain get in the way you're done,

Charles Shyer 36:16
yeah, you'll improve it into a failure, as Billy Fraker used to say that's exactly what happens. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 36:24
Now after after father the bride father bride was a monster hit. Very big hit. You've already done a few hits already but fathered by that. Was that the one of the biggest of your career at that point?

Charles Shyer 36:37
Yeah, I guess so. Um, you know, we got nominated for an Oscar, we won the Writers Guild Award for private Benjamin and got nominated for an Oscar. So that was a pretty big, pretty big success for us. But yeah, I guess, I don't know. I

Alex Ferrari 36:52
it was a pretty it was I know, it was a pretty big deal when it came out. Did the doors open a little bit faster for you after that?

Charles Shyer 36:58
Oh, actually, you know, for me and Nancy. We, I don't think we ever wrote a script we didn't sell. You know. So I just honestly, I mean, we we, we were right in the high we could kind of do what we wanted back then.

Alex Ferrari 37:16
Right? It was in the height of your powers at that. Yeah. And it was the height of

Charles Shyer 37:20
a time where they made movies for, you know, not like today where 20 million bucks. 25 million bucks. Yeah, it's today. It's really a battle. You know.

Alex Ferrari 37:31
Now you got to go with streamers. streamers are making those kind of 25 million $20 million movies. Yeah,

Charles Shyer 37:36
I mean, and I luckily got in with Netflix and and I've loved working with them. creatively, financially in ain't the best situation but, but creatively they've been pretty fantastic.

Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yeah, I hear they just let you go.

Charles Shyer 37:53
Once it's they let you go. I mean, I don't you know, I hardly give us any notes on the scripts. I'm maybe that's because the scripts are good and stuff, but and they're not. They're not jerky about it. They don't, they don't dictate. Um, you know, I give me a little bit when we were doing we're doing positive bride Jeffrey Katzenberg, we had this preview, and we got these numbers like Lion King numbers, you know? Yeah. I mean, we're like, cute. But and Katzenberg said to us, you know, look, I have some notes. I'm going to give you these notes. But all I'm asking is that you read the notes and you try them. You don't have to ever show me. And if they work fine if they don't, don't worry about it. And it was like it was it was so freeing that and we did try some we tried them all. And if they worked we kept them and if they didn't, you know we did and we never heard from them again. And that was it. And that was such a cool thing. And that's kind of the way Netflix is they say to you, you know we have an idea try it. Tell me what you think if you guys disagree tell us so I mean they're very open about that creatively so that that's great. And that's a it's almost almost but not quite even trade off for not getting paid

Alex Ferrari 39:14
so but please let everybody know that that's generally not the way it works in Hollywood that you generally don't don't have freedom and have creative now you don't you know how and how did you deal like coming up with what was like the worst scenario on if you could tell the name of the film or not that you just had to like fight tooth and nail for your vision?

Charles Shyer 39:33
Well, I remember what I remember once I had a warner brothers called me and Nancy into a meeting and had notes on private Benjamin and we looked at and he had this login script with like, you know, how do you turn down two pages

Alex Ferrari 39:45
on start dog eared it? Yeah,

Charles Shyer 39:47
yeah, there must have been 50 turn downs on the on the script, you know, and by the time we got the before turn down, dance and I was so prepared and in Nancy especially was so tough that he closed the script and said, I can't do this. He stopped doing this Netflix. Really? Yeah, well, wait,

Alex Ferrari 40:09
but what did you guys do? So what did you guys do? We just said, Well, if

Charles Shyer 40:11
you do this, you know, a lot of times, it's like a domino thing. They have an idea and it affects, you know, the third act or something, you know, they're just don't think shit out. So you know, and, and they were also idiotic ideas, you know, a lot.

Alex Ferrari 40:29
might get shocking.

Charles Shyer 40:30
Like they want to, they didn't like, I remember when Kim met her boyfriend. In the movie, they were watching. I know, his go Friday, or one of these movies, one of these hawks movies and, and they wanted us to make it a more contemporary movie, you know, it's all this shit that you go. Wow. Right? But they want to they want to put their imprint on the movie in some way. So I guess they can tell their wives or girlfriends or boyfriends.

Alex Ferrari 40:57
That was my idea. That was my idea. Yeah, exactly. That was that was my idea. Oh, you see the Howard. They were gonna make a Howard Hawks movie there. But I put it at You see?

Charles Shyer 41:09
I mean, yeah, I made him use James Cameron. You know, which is funnier? You know? I don't know. It's, you know, look, you just deal with it. But you can't, you can't let them break your heart. And you can't. You gotta you've got to grow with it, dude, or your, you know, don't you know, this, this culture? It's so toxic. You fuck up. You can be gone forever. We see that all the time with people.

Alex Ferrari 41:41
It's not like me. Oh, God. Imagine the things that were said or done in the 80s 70s or 80s. I mean, Jesus Christ.

Charles Shyer 41:48
How can I wait, the directors like Otto, Prime Minister George Stevens and guys like that? Who would scream at the crew?

Alex Ferrari 41:55
Oh my god, legendary.

Charles Shyer 41:57
You couldn't you can't do that anymore, man. You know, dope HR. And you'll be you know, Joe Pesci, I had a problem on my last movie with the production designer. And, and, you know, because it just wasn't happening, and I got pissed off. You know?

Alex Ferrari 42:13
They were they were screaming they were screamers.

Charles Shyer 42:15
Yeah. And Netflix got really upset about it. Because the production designer quit. But I was glad he quit because he was no good. Right? That's one of the problems when you make a lower budget movie, you often get lowered lower quality, or cattleya caliber, lower caliber people in and brands, you know, and you know, I mean, people who make good money make it for a reason.

Alex Ferrari 42:50
There's, there's a reason why Ron Howard waits for his first ad. That's right. There's a reason he's like, I can't shoot until I had,

Charles Shyer 42:58
like, the first ad I just worked with, I don't know, in my movie would have turned out. I know, it wouldn't have turned out as as, as well without him or with my friend who's a dp, you know, I fought for certain people. And, you know, you know, they helped make the movie with you. You're not alone.

Alex Ferrari 43:17
One thing I want people to be and I've said this 1000 times on the show, I want people to be very clear about this. No matter who you are, no matter how, what age, you're at what level of business you're at, you still got to fight. Everyone's got to fight, you're gonna get punched in the face constantly. Because there's an illusion. There's like this kind of myth out there. It's like, Oh, well, you've been nominated for an Oscar, you want an Oscar and you've made hundreds of millions of dollars. Like they just roll up and just throw money at you. You feed and you can do whatever you want. That's not the reality of the business. No, no,

Charles Shyer 43:46
no. Also you're fighting you're fighting nature, you're fighting all these kind of, you know, things where the actor doesn't get it right. You know, I can't tell you how many times I would bury my head in my you know, I hate moving you know, you go I can't do this as this flipping me out. You know, or you wake up in the middle, you know, and the other thing is that you realize it's Billy Wilder said this every day after you wrap on the drive home, you realize how you should have shot the scene you just shot? You know,

Alex Ferrari 44:16
isn't it Marty isn't it Marty says if you don't look at your movie at one point and go this is absolute crap. You're not doing it right. Right.

Charles Shyer 44:24
Yeah, no, I mean, the first time we looked at private Benjamin, we thought career Ender will never done we're never we're never work again. Let's go make cookies and assembly. You know. And same with baby boom, we thought this is it will never work again. You know, and we didn't blame them for never hiring. It's again. it you know, it just, you know, it takes so much work to get it right. And then a lot of times you can't get it right because it doesn't work. That's

Alex Ferrari 44:54
right, exactly. And I just want to talk about a Parent Trap because honestly, it is one of my favorite Like my family and I love it. I introduced my daughters to it. How did you approach doing that classic because that was a beloved classic.

Charles Shyer 45:07
Well, it was more Nancy's idea to Mike because Nancy had loved the Parent Trap. The Hayley Mills. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we were at Disney anyway at the time. And so we went to Jeffrey Katzenberg and said, We want to remake it. And that came kind of naturally that was a, you know, it was barely it. Again, this was more Nancy than me because I didn't really, I, you know, I loved Hayley Mills. And I thought the original movie was really good. And I like Brian Jeep. But But um, I know it was kind of a not an easy rewrite, but it was something that came very naturally to us. And then when we got when we got Lindsay that was that was striking gold rule. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 45:55
she was

Charles Shyer 45:56
that was when she was she was amazing. She was amazing. I mean, she was 11 years old and just could act her ass off. I mean, she was just great. And, and, you know, it launched her obviously. And Natasha was great. You know,

Alex Ferrari 46:11
Dennis? Yeah. Dennis.

Charles Shyer 46:13
Yeah, sought us out. Actually, she wanted the part. We didn't really even know her work that well, but she was so. So perfect for the role. I mean, we got very lucky. All the casting on that movie really worked out.

Alex Ferrari 46:26
Yeah. And I mean, after watching that movie, when I was younger, I was like, I gotta go to Napa. I mean, that's just gorgeous.

Charles Shyer 46:32
Yeah, we shot we shot a lot of that on the Coppola state. Oh, okay. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 46:36
I've been that. That's a that's such a stunning.

Charles Shyer 46:39
It was great. And, and, and also, hey, you know, because Dean Cavalera did the production design on that we did all Coppola's movies, you know. So he got us in with Francis. So we spent time with Francis. And that was just all pretty great.

Alex Ferrari 46:54
That must be pretty cool. hanging out with friends.

Charles Shyer 46:58
And having Dean travelers through your movie is pretty incredible, too. He's like a genius. That's right. Cameron Mandy's one of these amaze may be the best production designer, one of the top three or four of all time.

Alex Ferrari 47:11
That's amazing. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions as all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Charles Shyer 47:22
Man, I don't know. I mean, my son who's sitting here with me, it wants to do it. And I I think number one, if you would? Do you want to be a filmmaker? I don't know what that means. Do you want to be a writer or a writer director, I think if he I think to be a director, it's what it really helps to be able to write your own movie. Because if you don't, you're going to have to make films that knock people out, they'll let you direct. But if you write a script, you can kind of handcuff yourself to the script, if it's good enough, you know, and and say, that's what we did with. That's what we did with irreconcilable. We said we're not going to we're not going to go with another director. What you know, you know, but it's I think it's really hard today, I guess, maybe with streaming and stuff who come up with a really strong idea. But if you write it yourself, I know you're, you increase your odds program. It's like,

Alex Ferrari 48:23
now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Charles Shyer 48:31
That that i think i i think it took me a long time to realize I'm better than I think.

Alex Ferrari 48:42
You mean, imposter syndrome getting over imposter syndrome.

Charles Shyer 48:44
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, on this last movie, I started to really feel a sense of accomplishment for what I've done, you know, like, one of the weird things that happened on this movie, this crew, the most, the thing that they were most impressed that I'd ever done, was smoking in the band. And, you know,

Alex Ferrari 49:07
that's pretty, it's a pretty cool credit, I have to say,

Charles Shyer 49:10
No, but when I was my head was when I'm not What are you talking about? And why would that be me? You know, now, you know, understand that changed my life. And, you know, like, Justin Hartley has that Jeep the car that Burt Reynolds drove in the movie. I mean, you know, these be I'm going well, geez. Alright, but starting to appreciate what I do. What I've done was was something that took me a long time to really embrace

Alex Ferrari 49:37
and three of your favorite films of all time,

Charles Shyer 49:39
I would say, oh, lucky man. Lindsay Anderson movie. Do you know that room?

Alex Ferrari 49:43
I don't know that movie.

Charles Shyer 49:44
Oh, oh, you know, I have to see that movie with Malcolm McDowell is that I would say All About Eve. Yeah, probably More of the apartment 20th century, and I think back to the future is one of the best screenplays ever.

Alex Ferrari 50:06
It's that's perfect of a film has ever been made, honestly. Yeah.

Charles Shyer 50:10
It's like the apartment is a perfect movie.

Alex Ferrari 50:14
Correct. And that's been mentioned many times in the top three here at the show up there. All About

Charles Shyer 50:20
eat the dialogue is like, forget it who writes like this? I mean, who writes, you know, you're too short for that gesture. I mean, who writes lines like that? You know?

Alex Ferrari 50:33
That's awesome. And what's your what's your your next project that you're that's gonna be coming out? Well,

Charles Shyer 50:37
yeah, I'm, I'm editing this movie. Now that will be out. It's actually not coming out till Christmas of 22. But because we don't finish until February, but then I'm going to try to do this autobiographical movie that I've written that I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll probably do it with Netflix again. So I'm gonna do that because I like working there. I can only get them to up the salary a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 51:06
Hopefully, they'll watch this and maybe they'll take it and

Charles Shyer 51:09
be good. No, it's a good it's a nice place to work though. I have to say,

Alex Ferrari 51:15
Charles, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. It is. Thank you so much for having being on the show. And, and doing it just brings so much joy and happiness to people around the world. For all the years you've been doing this man. Are you too kind? Will you let me know when it's gonna be on? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'll send you a link when it's already. It'll be on in a few weeks. But thank you again so much for being on the show, my friend.

Charles Shyer 51:36
It's a pleasure. Thanks, man.

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BPS 136: Horror Screenwriting (The Nature of Fear)

August 18, 2022September 1, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I was glad to take a deep dive into the deep end of horror screenwriting with writer and producer, Devin Watson, notably known for writing and producing The Cursed (2010) which was the first draft he wrote in only two days.

He’s also written several books, the latest of which is Horror Screenwriting: The Nature of Fear.

Horror has, among all of the genres in film and written works, one of the longest, most distinguished, and often misunderstood bloodlines in history. It is often overlooked by critics who don’t see anything more than blood and guts on the screen or a collection of cheap scares.

But what is missed is the hard-hitting commentary on society and life contained in those works.

Devin got his start working with the website, ‘moviepartners.com’ in the late 90s which was one of the first websites out there that really had any kind of information on independent filmmaking.

Eventually, he decided to try out writing some scripts. But reading what every he could find to prepare him for scriptwriting. He was influenced in a big way by Lew Hunter’s book, Screenwriting 434.

Here, Lew Hunter shares the secrets of his course on the screenwriting process by actually writing an original script, step by step in Screenwriting 434.

When he felt ready, Devin wrote his first five scripts, all of which turned out not very good. Not until November 2006 that he wrote a script in 2 days for his friend, Phil Melfi. That was when he felt confident in his work. That script became his debut production and writing, The Cursed, which is still a sci-fi channel Halloween rotation regular.

Devin’s book Horror Screenwriting really dives into the craft of horror and screenwriting pretty deeply.

Enjoy my conversation with Devin Watson.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:11
I like to welcome to the show Devin Watson man, how you doing Devin?

Devin Watson 0:14
I'm doing great. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'm doing great, man. Thank you so much for jumping on the show. Man. I truly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to diving into the deep end of horror screenwriting with you today. Now, before we get started, how did you get started in the in the film industry and the love of what you do.

Devin Watson 0:32
Also, while a bow bow, I would say probably the late 90s I worked on a website called movie partners calm. And that's kind of gone the way of the dodo now. But that was basically one of the first websites out there that really had any kind of information on independent filmmaking. around at the time, there was even somebody wrote their, their graduation thesis on it as like, what was going to happen. And they were pre staging like YouTube and Vimeo and things like that long, long before it actually came around. But that was that was where I really got my, my start was on the technology side of things. And eventually, I'm like, you know, I should really start writing some stuff, too. So I ended up reading a few books. I mean, that's kind of where I am is like, if I'm gonna learn something, I'm gonna go get some books. So I started out with, really, the one book that helped me the most at that time, was screenwriting for 34 by blue Hunter, because there wasn't a whole lot out there. A point in time, so that the 90s Definitely, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's where I basically got my, my, my start in that. And then I wrote four or five scripts. And, yeah, they sucked, like, gonna lie, I try to tell people that your first couple of scripts are just going to be bad, but that's okay. Because as long as you get a little bit better with each one, it's not going to be a total loss. And you can always go back later and revise them if you want. If you want to see if you can polish them up and make them into what you originally thought they should be, you can do that. And then I moved to Tennessee, and that's I was living with my producing partner at the time, Phil Melfi. And that's when, like, basically right after Thanksgiving. 2006. I wrote a basically he said, if you write a script, I will read it. And I won't. I won't just toss it in the trashcan. I was like, okay, so on that bet. I just sat down over the weekend and just turned out like a real serious one that I wanted to do. Because I had had all these ideas floating around in my head. And finally, they just all coalesced. And I said, Okay, now I got to write this thing. So I got out as fast as I could. Because I had another gig on Monday. And it's like, like, I only got the weekend. I got to do this. So I finished it late Sunday night. Phil was already asleep. But I emailed it to him. And then I went into his room and I said, Okay, I finished it. So he popped up out of bed, and he just read the thing, and came outside. And you know, his mouth was open. Because he knew I'd started it. He didn't realize I was gonna finish it then, and I said, Well, was it really that bad? So he was like, No, no, it's actually really good. And, you know, a couple months later, we actually managed to get financing for it. And that became the cursed, which is still out. sci fi channel picked it up. And they like to put that in their regular Halloween rotation on in October, but it's also available on Amazon. So it's, it's amazing just to see something like that. Get up there. And it's like, wow, it's up there.

Alex Ferrari 4:05
But then you show you and you wrote it in in two days?

Devin Watson 4:08
Pretty much yeah.

Alex Ferrari 4:09
So that was like most screenplays are written most screenplays are written in two days. You really don't need to take more than two days to write a screenplay. Right?

Devin Watson 4:17
I didn't find out till after that. You're supposed to take three months and like okay, well, I mean, I did revise I did like two or three more drafts. Like the next week I would just say like Well, I don't really like how this part went so but that's mostly just to not you know, once you get to a point so

Alex Ferrari 4:38
well so I mean, your book about horror screenwriting really dives into the into the craft of horror, screenwriting specifically pretty deeply. What were some of the first horror films ever made and what can we learn from them today?

Devin Watson 4:54
Well, believe it or not one of the first actual films ever made was a horror film. So That's a I think it's called the dark castle in 1896. So, horror has been around as long as filmmaking has been around.

Alex Ferrari 5:11
And what was that? What was that movie about?

Devin Watson 5:14
Well, it's a short obviously it was. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's really just about a haunted house. Dark spooky castle. That's really what it what it's about. So. Yeah, I mean, even back then people were there were afraid of the dark, scary places. And they were like, Hey, we can play on that. Because that's what people are afraid of. And they want to get scared, but they can get scared safely by just watching a film. And I think that was was it the lumieres? I think it was the Lumiere brothers.

Alex Ferrari 5:43
Did that one. Yeah.

Devin Watson 5:45
So when Nosferatu showed up when that was the first iteration was, I want to say in the early 20s.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
Also still like, yeah, that's 20 years later. So it was Yeah. And frankenz. And I'm assuming that was, was there a Frankenstein adaptation insanely times?

Devin Watson 6:05
Yep. There's actually one from night believe 1916. That is Edison. Edison studios. That was one of the first ones. And that's actually in public domain now. And you can watch it on archive.org. It's up there and the dark castle is up there. Well, it's as much of it is could be found and restored, is available out there as well. And people have actually taking those Nosferatu. And since it's in public domain, they've done all kinds of things to it. Like they've added their own film score. So like you want to hear it with, like the classical organ pieces you want to hear with an orchestra or you want to hear it with like goth metal. Somebody did a goth goth metal version of it. That's to say.

Alex Ferrari 6:54
So, and I'm assuming they were hits back then. I mean, well, first of all movies were hit just because it was a movie. But whore really started to get was there a specific movie back then that really caused a stir? That really kind of like scared the limit like good for us. It was like the actresses like the exorcist. This is the first one of our generation that I can think of. That was the movie that literally just scared the bejesus out of everybody like it just terrified. I mean, psycho to a certain extent, too, but Exorcist is a whole other level.

Devin Watson 7:26
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that that was like the pure shock value of it. It's like wow, then bad enough that Billy Graham says there's the devil is in the celluloid? I can I've seen it.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Jesus, literally Jesus.

Devin Watson 7:43
Yeah, I think no, Serato was definitely one of the one of the first big ones because it also it plays into German Expressionism. And right was was one of the one of the big founding factors art wise, because just like, just like Now, a lot of films don't have enough budget. So what do you do you work with what you got, and German expression isn't. German Expressionism is really good for that because it doesn't rely on a lot of big fancy sets or anything. You just you fill it in, fill in the gaps with your imagination.

Alex Ferrari 8:22
Now throughout society throughout throughout history, society has really kind of shaped and culture and the culture has shaped how horror films are presented depending on what's what country you're from, what time period you're from, you know, obviously, like the exorcist played up on in America specifically, the you know, the Judeo Christianity, Christian Christianity. I can't say the word Jewish Christian. Kind of taboos. And it really touched on that culturally. How do it throughout history, though? How have how society and culture really affected the horror genre? Well, even

Devin Watson 9:05
going way, way back, you have like the ancient Sumerians, who they created gods, specifically to scare children into being obedient. Like if you go out after dark, this God is going to come and grab you and eat you. So scaring somebody when somebody is scared. They will. They'll do things they don't normally do. It's it's a, it's a one way to just like you see, in the slasher flicks. Like Friday the 13th and everything we see the teenage girl screaming and running away through the woods. It's like, No, no, no, don't go that way. It was like, Well, she's scared out of her mind. She's gonna do, she's gonna do the exact opposite of what she should do.

Alex Ferrari 9:51
Like, why are you going into that room alone? Like, why, seriously? What's the point of that? And then obviously, the Sumerian gods were then showed up and Ghostbusters. Were took care of them. I honestly, obviously

Devin Watson 10:05
and I honestly I mean if you didn't make the bad guys truly bad gozer wouldn't have been the thing that really would have I mean yeah it's it's it's a comedy but it's a horror comedy so it's

Alex Ferrari 10:18
it's a weird Ghostbusters was a weird because I've been horror comedies I assume they would horror comedies prior to that, but but Ghostbusters just took it to it and obviously Ghostbusters is a lot more comedy than horror but there is there is some scary. There's some scary moments in that like in the bottom of the library that terrified me as a kid. I was like Jesus, I mean Slimer wasn't as scary, but still, it could definitely be scary. I'm actually kind of excited about the new one. The one that's a direct sequel to the Ghostbusters with Jason Reitman's. Oh, yeah, it looks like he's paying really nice homage to him. He actually made me really miss Harold Ramis a lot after I watch that trailer. I was like tearing up. I'm like, Harold. Oh my god.

Devin Watson 11:03
I believe me. I got it. I have this here in my iTunes like, Oh, I so want to see this. I will. I will. I will go to the theater. And I will see this and I will gladly watch it because it just looks so amazing what they did. And I think Paul Rudd is somebody that could definitely pick up the mantle, so to speak. At least from the comedy side of things, at least looking at the extended trailers and seeing him with a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 11:34
that was so great. Great. I'm looking for I'm really looking forward to. And again, for younger viewers listening there'll be like, Oh, it looks like another movie. But for guys like you and me who grew up with Ghostbusters and saw it in the theater. We just like Jason knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote the script like he he is touching nerves that needed to be touched. I think that was probably one of the reasons why the the all female Ghostbusters movie got such backlash is because it was so disrespectful to the original lore of it. And many people thought of it that way. I thought it was fine. But it was just not a sequel. It was just it was something else it was something other thing that was you know that lived on its own fine. It was a fine. But I think it was it was we were we are going off the deep end and the Ghostbusters world so I apologize everybody. It's just it is it's what happens when film geeks get together. But anyway, now there's so many different kinds of horror. What are the different kind of horror movies because a lot of people just think horrors or but there's many sub genres within horror.

Devin Watson 12:38
Oh, yeah, yeah, there's, well you've you've got like the kind of a surface layer of just the popcorn movies, as I call it like where you just disengage brain and you just watch it and try not to analyze it because it's going to you won't get anything out of it. You won't enjoy it like, like watching Halloween or the Friday 13th series or Nightmare on Elm Street. The other ones you've got, you've got the supernatural type horror films like like basically most of your Benson price movies from the 50s and 60s and the hammer horror films where you got the something closer to what would be considered body horror now like Frankenstein. And you have Dracula and other supernatural being that was I was another area right there. And then you have like, you're going to stuff like a David Cronenberg, like the fly and stuff like that. Well, basically, all of his early films dealt with your body changing into something horrible, and you can't do anything about it. And that's

Alex Ferrari 13:49
the horror within almost, right,

Devin Watson 13:51
right. It's like there's this and there's, there's something existential about it as well. If you really want to dive deep into that, there's that. And then you've got, like zombie films, where the monsters are the well you think that's the zombies, but then you find like, Oh, well, they're still alive.

Alex Ferrari 14:09
It's generally the humans who are the monsters if A Night of the Living Dead taught us anything? It was the people were the monsters, not the zombies. But then there's obviously like, you know, vampire films, Ghost films, torture porn, like the jigsaw and saw movies and hostile hostels and awesome hostile, hostile films, and those kinds of things. So there's a lot of there and then of course there's the the the monster movie to a certain extent but like the killer monster movie like alien well there's there's literally the monster movie but then you've got the Halloween that the serial killer but like then the supernatural aspects of those. So like, there's a lot like Freddie is a combination of a bunch of different and Freddie just the first the first time around. It was fairly terrifying especially for its time. But then he became it literally was a comedy routine after after think after the second one. It was like Freddie's hilarious. Yeah,

Devin Watson 15:11
yeah, that's, I call him the he's the cruel Jester at that point, because he's like, Yeah, yes, I'm gonna kill you, but I'm gonna have fun doing it. And I'm gonna crack jokes while I'm doing it.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
Right. Yeah. Whereas in Michael Myers, and Jason never changed. They're always the same just unstoppable force that comes in. And I still consider one of the greatest horror movies of all time is straws is still around. It's still holds To this day, you can watch it. And we know it's a mechanical shark. And when the shark does come out, it's not a it's not horrible, but it's definitely not, you know, completely 100% believable, but yet, it's Spielberg is just, it's absolutely brilliant.

Devin Watson 15:55
Yeah, and I think that from a visual perspective, I mean, part of what scares the bejesus out of you with jaws is that you just see the fin for most of the movie. It's not until you're like way deep into the movie. Before you ever worry. Schneider's chumming the water, looking and that thing just comes out of the water. And you're like, holy, whoa, okay. Now we got it. Now we see things like 20 feet long, and it's um, it's a monstrosity.

Alex Ferrari 16:24
Yeah. And I mean, and Spielberg single handedly has destroyed a species because people are still terrified by sharks, and want to kill them and all this kind of stuff because of that movie. And it's, it's hard. It's funny, but it's horrible at the same time, but yeah, but he was able to able to do that. And you watch something like Poltergeist, which is to be Toby Hooper. But, and I was talking to a filmmaker the other day about this. I'm like, you know, I'm a fan of Toby. But Toby really never got as good as poltergeists ever again, and from what I heard from behind the scenes is that Steven had a hand in this. That's why Poltergeist is it's a masterwork.

Devin Watson 17:02
Yeah, yeah. And what I, from what I understand, Stephen was a Spielberg was under contract that he couldn't direct two movies at the same time. So, so he was like, Okay, I'm gonna go do et but here's all my notes that I had already done for Poltergeist. So yeah, Toby. Toby had help. I would think a little bit from that. But still, he was the one actually doing it. And I think the the scene where the guy is ripping his face off in front of your, the hands, the hands were actually Steven Spielberg's.

Alex Ferrari 17:39
Yeah, it's interesting. Steven has not gone back to Hoare. Even though he kind of started his career as a as a scare might even in even in close encounters, Close Encounters has a lot of scary, scary moments in it. Even he has some scary moments in it. He has that wonderful ability, but he never went back to it. If I ever have him on the show. I'll ask him. When are you going to do another horror movie? Steven.

Devin Watson 18:05
The nice thing is you don't you? You do not have to have a huge budget to make a horror film, which is why it's so easily accessible to independent filmmakers. Like we look at The Blair Witch Project. I mean, that was made for like pocket change. And the probably the most my biggest adjusted for inflation, it probably still is one of the most successful indie films ever made.

Alex Ferrari 18:28
It is it was a very successful indie film. And I actually had Eduardo, one of the directors on the show a while ago, and I told them I'm like, you know, man, I love the movie. But and this is a spoiler alert, if anyone's listening, skip 15 seconds ahead of 30 seconds ahead, but the only thing that would have made that film perfect for me, is at the end, when the camera falls, you would just see a pair of floating feet just go by. Oh yeah, that would have I just got chills thinking about Could you imagine if you would have just seen some floating feet just go by?

Devin Watson 19:01
No, that's very reminiscent of the the previous generation of found footage, movies like basically what I call the second Italian Renaissance in the 70s where you have like the green Inferno. Lucio fulci. Those guys just Mario Bava just cranking them out left and right. Italian actors dubbed in Dubbed into English. And a lot of those ended, they would end on a shot of like, the camera hits the ground, but then you see one of the principal characters that's still left, they hit the ground and their head is just like split open and one and it's like, okay, it's over.

Alex Ferrari 19:39
And seen. Now, you know, us as a species, our I think on an evolutionary standpoint, we're very fearful because we're afraid about what is going to kill us. That's just instinctual. Like, what's around the corner is that I always use the tide is a tiger down by that by the Like, is the tire gonna get me around the corner? So you're always looking for that kind of fear thing, where in your opinion does fear come from in our species as a general statement?

Devin Watson 20:10
Believe it or not, I believe, I believe that is a survival trait. It's what kept us kept us alive as a species. Although now we can actually use that we can leverage that as screenwriters to really play on it. And it's like, oh, you're afraid of this? Okay. We're gonna we're gonna really, people are afraid of clowns because of it. But people were already afraid of clowns, even before it came around. But I mean, to be fair, clowns.

Alex Ferrari 20:41
Yeah, are are an abomination and need to be stopped.

Devin Watson 20:46
Oh, yeah. Trust me, seeing seeing that clown and poltergeists from behind them. Okay.

Alex Ferrari 20:54
All right. So let's, let's, before we start, let's just go over here. The scariest moment of my youth was sleeping over at a friend's house, who had HBO because we didn't have HBO, because that's only for rich people. And he was and I walked in and they're like, What are you watching? I'm, like, are watching this film called poltergeists. And I sat there for three minutes. And it was a scene where the little kid got taken down by the clown, the the life size, whatever the you know, kid size clown and took him under the bed. That's still to this day terrifies me. Not the clowns. I mean, I don't like lose my mind. If I see a clown. I'm like, dude, that's just Dude, you're a grown ass, man. Stop it. It just I'm sorry for all the clowns out there. I can't I just can't. It just No. But I went home that night. Other than the next day, I went home and I had a Sylvester, like for Sylvester and Tweety, which was about the same size as that clown. So then I put them in the corner. And I aimed all my GI Joes and Transformers with guns aimed at him in his half circle. So I could go to sleep. And then my mom walked in. She's like, Alex, what's, what does Sylvester Do you? Like when um, you don't want to know he's just shady. It's not It's not what he's done is what he's going to do what he has the potential of doing for me. And this is prior to Chucky or anything like that. I only imagine if I would have said something like Chucky, when I was that age. But continue, sir, I'm sorry. You are giving your fear where fear comes from?

Devin Watson 22:27
Yeah, where fear comes from? Yeah, it's it's a base survival instincts. If something scares you the fight or flight response, most the time it's flight, like, get me out of here. I want to want to get away from this. And then what is like Stephen King can do is they tap into a very universal fear of something. Like for him. He's like the fear of clowns. That's one thing. Fear, he has a fear of mice or rats. So you got something like graveyard shift your things, your stories like that. And that's where I try to teach people in book is like, start with what scares you. And try to understand why it scares you. And it all just comes from a lot of it just stems from the unknown. It's like, I don't know what that is, but it seems really scary. So I'm gonna stay away from it. So if you can tap that, especially with yourself, you've got to be kind of honest with yourself, like what really scares you. And that's even just straight up jumpscares which I think are kind of a cheap thing to do. I don't mind if a movie does it, like once or twice?

Alex Ferrari 23:39
Yes. Yeah, it's fun. It's a rollercoaster ride. It's a job. It's a drop,

Devin Watson 23:43
right? But if you're relying on that constantly, throughout your, your film, I mean, it's gonna lose, it's gonna lose its, its efficacy, it's not going to the 10th time around, it's not not as good as like the first time I was kind of like saying the same joke over and over and over again. It just stops getting funny.

Alex Ferrari 24:00
Right? Or the villain never dies and just keeps coming back and keeps going. That's what I love about scream that just literally just poked fun at all the tropes while doing them. While doing them. It was it was absolutely brilliant work. And I think that's one of the things I think he's talking about tapping into universal fears. m Night Shyamalan his new movie old. I mean, that's terrifying. Yeah. I mean, it's like you You walk in and you're like, Oh, my God, I'm I'm growing older. As as we speak rapidly. That is a terrifying. Has that ever been in cinema before? I don't think it has.

Devin Watson 24:36
No, I don't really well. There's.

Alex Ferrari 24:40
I mean, there's elements of it, but not like that. Right?

Devin Watson 24:41
Not not at that rate or speed or anything like that worse.

Alex Ferrari 24:47
Well, what's his name? What's the famous book a portrait of Dorian Gray. It says it has a similar fear of aging.

Devin Watson 24:56
Right, right. Which that goes back way, way back. So Yeah, but yeah, that's if you can tap that there's this existential dread of like, this is inevitable, it's happening to you. And you cannot get away from it that that can terrify so many people just by saying, Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it.

Alex Ferrari 25:17
But like the fly like you were saying Cronenberg like the fly, it is something that's like you are turning into a monster. Right? We have noticed like, again, tapping into Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde again at that point, to a certain extent.

Devin Watson 25:30
Yeah. And when you all the time period, okay, so Cronenberg has vehemently denied in connection with being an allegory for AIDS. But it was very much in the forefront of people's minds that like, okay, because there was at that was mid 80s. And that's exactly

Alex Ferrari 25:49
when it exploded. Yeah.

Devin Watson 25:50
Yeah. So people were like, automatically connecting that in their minds, say, yeah, this is, this could very well be a story about somebody with AIDS, or an allegory about it. And he's like, No, no, it's not really about that. But yeah, you could easily make the connections yourself in your mind. And that's one thing that good work could do is your audience can find connections that you've never thought of, with things like 90 of the Living Dead. A lot of people make the the original night of living dead make the connection, that it was about mindless consumerism. Just people like ricambi were becoming zombies. You know, they can find some greater social message inside of a horror film that on its surface. Yeah, it's about zombies and people holed up in a house and fighting with each other. But

Alex Ferrari 26:39
I think George actually, Romero made that even more clear. Is it Donna the dead or when it was in the mall? Yeah. I mean, he literally was not hiding and

Devin Watson 26:50
yeah, he's like, Okay, I'm gonna run with this now. You say it is okay. Exactly, exactly. And then you've got I mean, one seem to me that always sums up existential dread is this there's a scene in the original alien when Lambert is cornered. And Parker's just been killed. And it's just very slowly showing this thing creeping towards her. This look on her face, like, Oh my God, this thing's gonna kill me. And you see its tail just go between her legs and upper back. And it's just very, very slowly shot. And then you and then right at the end of it, you hear her scream? And then the next thing you know all you can hear is her just breathing really rapidly over the speaker system in the in the ship and then and then you hear the thing, the the alien just make a mega noise and she screams one last time. And that's it. And all you're hearing at that point is just rippling running down the hallway. And that's it. It's like, okay, we know she's dead now. But that was like her biggest fear was that thing killing her? Because she was freaking out. Long before that happened is like yeah, it's almost like she was the course she was speaking for the audience like, Oh, yeah, we're not kidding. That thing. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 28:09
Yeah. And alien and alien itself is a masterwork in in horror, and genre smashing with the sci fi. I think it's, I'm not sure if it was a first sci fi horror, but it definitely is the granddaddy of it. Yeah.

Devin Watson 28:25
Yeah, definitely. I think without that, because it was the haunted house in space idea, where you've got this thing working around it set. It really put a lot of concrete rules. Not really solely concrete. But you've got these rules of like, you don't have to show the entire creature because your audience's imagination is going to fill it in for you. And it's like, okay, we don't need such a huge budget to show this thing. And like, this thing looks terrifying. I think without that, without alien, we probably would not have had event horizon. Because they're both the haunted house in space kind of ideas, but instead of an alien monster running around you, the ship itself is haunted, and went to hell, or something approximating it.

Alex Ferrari 29:12
Right. And then the sequel, which was just alien on steroids, which is aliens James Cameron's masterpiece is another genre, you know, clashing with his action horror, which you don't see as much action or anymore. I mean, you did a little bit now with with Zack Snyder's new zombie film that came out.

Devin Watson 29:35
Yeah, it's I think it's harder. It's not just harder to put together but with action you've got, you know, stunts, explosions, Pyro, you've got the whole nine yards and it just ratchets up the difficulty level shooting with also budgets as well. And yeah, aliens again. It's like, wow, that was incredible. I didn't think they could actually do do Really good sequel. It's like, okay, we're just gonna go in this other direction. And then alien three came around and Fincher to get kind of back to the original roots, which was

Alex Ferrari 30:13
that house, it was a haunted house, I would have loved to actually see his version, not just version, I would love to see a Dave a real David Fincher Director's Cut, which I don't think he'll ever, ever do, because he hated that process. So it almost drove through almost he almost left the business. But thankfully, he went on and gave us seven, and fight club and so on, and so on, and so on and so on. Now, in your book, you talk about the talking head problem, what is the talking head problem?

Devin Watson 30:44
Okay, the talking head problem is where you're just running dialogue. And just like constantly just talking back and forth. It's really easy to fall into that trap, where you just have the characters talk about things to tell the audience what's going on. And you don't have to I mean, a screenplay is showing not telling, it's a screen play. So that's where a lot of especially first time writers they fall down, is they just go very dialogue heavy. And in a horror film, it's more about just, you know, here's to here's to what the audience added up to four. And that really can help. Well, I mean, look, look at how much dialogue is in a nightmare. The original Nightmare on Elm Street. Not a lot. Freddy doesn't even talk Really? I mean, you know, he's just

Alex Ferrari 31:36
Yeah, he did. Yeah, he didn't come he didn't get his personality till the second one. Really? Right.

Devin Watson 31:40
Yeah. And it's the same thing with Halloween, Michael Myers never talked at all. And that's makes them all the scare here. But and same thing with Jason never talked at all really? Unless you count the very end of Manhattan. But we we try not to think about Manhattan.

Yeah. That was one of those ones that's like that, that ending? I can't figure it out.

Alex Ferrari 32:06
I remember when it came out. I was like, Really? You guys are just running out of stuff.

Devin Watson 32:13
What just happened here? Yes. But yeah, you if you can keep the people talking, there's definitely some need for it in certain parts. And usually it's right in the front, like, Event Horizon had that scene where they're on the ship, and they're setting things up, after they get out of status. And they're just talking about like, okay, what's happening? Why are we here, that kind of thing. And there's trying to fill in the blanks as, as quickly as possible, but just enough of the blanks where you, the audience can start to piece things together more easily later.

Alex Ferrari 32:55
Right? in a movie, like the thing. Which is another one of those that there's just a bunch of people locked in place. And there I don't remember there being a talking head issue there. But there definitely is some talking heads in there.

Devin Watson 33:09
Yeah, yeah. And it's but it's, it's spread out. And it's, it's very, they're not like going on for page after page after page. They're just, there's like, Okay, we got to do this right now. And most of the dialogue is arguing back and forth about like, you know, like, Well, okay, Who, who, who led all the blood out of the, of the storage, and like, Where's the keys and all this kind of stuff? It's, it's more like them trying to figure out the mystery all amongst themselves, but the paranoia levels are just going up and up. No. Well,

Alex Ferrari 33:39
one thing that I, I love one little tip I I have gotten from James Cameron films, and he's the one that said it very clearly in the Terminator is when you have backstory, that you need to tell the audience instead of two people sitting down at a table telling you like, Well, you know, yeah, there's from the future. And you know, there's a killer robot after you it's a cyber, instead of that, do it with inaction. Yep. Which is a great way to do it. Yep,

Devin Watson 34:11
calories did that. While they were being chased by the Terminator. He was like, Yes, Sue, come with me if you want to live and get in the car, and they're running away from that thing. So right. Yeah, and by the time Terminator two runs or comes around, and you got the T 1000. chasing them, there's no talking at that point. Cuz like, we know what's going on now.

Alex Ferrari 34:30
Right? But that's but that's the thing so many people tell. But you know, you're just here to, you know, just dialogue that just sitting there just like, Oh, God, I don't want to, I mean, you need this backstory, or else the movie doesn't work, but it has to be done in an entertaining fashion. So while you're running away from a monster or something like that, if you can tell if there is absolute necessity for you to tell the backstory of something. If you could do it with inaction. god it's so much it's more entertaining. Always good.

Devin Watson 34:58
If you're gonna have to explain something you At least give them something to do. So it doesn't look so boring. And it's like, oh yeah, they're doing something important that's going to help advance the plot somewhere. But at the same time, they're also giving information but not in an, in a so direct way. So that that really helps. really helps keep your audience from falling asleep for one thing.

Alex Ferrari 35:21
And the other thing I can't stand when I'm watching not only horror movies, but horror movies in general screenwriting, is when there's so on the nose with stuff, like I know, like, I know, like, if you and me are in a scene and you meet our brothers, and we really need to talk about that we're brothers, or that we, that the story is reliant that we that the audience knows that you and I are related. You know, you don't go Hi, brother, how are you from the same mother? Like you know that but I've seen that as opposed to doing something in the dialogue that's like, Oh, you know, cuz you're always mom's favorite. That that one line says, okay, that's established that we're brothers now as opposed to saying, Hello, brother.

Devin Watson 36:02
Yeah, well, good line about that. It's the beginning of the abyss ahead here. He gets off when he gets off the video call with with his wife, but yes, that point we don't know that he's like, got a Mitch and then the other guy says probably shouldn't married her then. So such a brilliant

Alex Ferrari 36:23
line and Cameron has and I've said this on the show many times Cameron is one of the most underrated screenwriters. I think one of the most underrated screenwriters in history because he's such a predominant he's known as a director. And obviously one of the most successful actually the most successful depending on the gross numbers. One of the most successful directors of all time by his writing is his reader scripts for aliens. Um, it's it's a masterwork. It's an absolute masterwork.

Devin Watson 36:52
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I try to point people towards things and say, like, you can't Well, obviously, that's a big thing in screenwriting is watch movies, that you that watch movies, if they're good or bad, watch him because you can't learn. You're not gonna learn as much from the good as you can from the bad like, well, that's what you don't do. But also read the screenplays that went behind it. So then you can see, especially if you can get a copy of the production drafts that actually was used. So they can see what they cut out and try to figure out why they did that, why it was cut out for a long time or anything like that. Sunday, you can fine tune your process when you write saying, Okay, this might not work, but I'll leave it in and try to keep it lean and mean, if you can.

Alex Ferrari 37:37
Yeah, and I think that the it's a lot harder to learn from really good scripts than it is to learn from really bad scripts. Because when you read Tarantino or Cameron or, you know, or some of these master screenwriters, they make it look so easy. That it's like, well, it's kind of like looking at a painting by the Vinci like, it's not that easy. But yet when you watch a bad movie, and you're like, oh, that that character shouldn't have said that or the plots horrible. You learn a lot. It's a lot easier to fix bad than it is to emulate perfection.

Devin Watson 38:11
Yeah, you know, like a plan nine from outer space or mouse the hands of fate. So I like the room. The room. Yeah, that one? That one I'm still scratching my head about. It's like, okay, it got made. I don't know, really, the

Alex Ferrari 38:24
room is arguably one of the greatest films of all time, and you can only watch it with other people. If you don't watch it with other people. It's sad. But especially if you can watch it with other filmmakers, which is what I did last time I saw it was at Sundance with my crew while we were shooting a movie, and none of us had seen it before. And we're all just yelling at the screen. Why are you using the same stock footage shot twice? Is he humping her belly button? Why is there a football scene? What is going on? It's so great.

Devin Watson 38:52
And Tommy with those never going to say? He's like, well, I guess it's one of those. Well, you just don't understand it. No, he's

Alex Ferrari 39:02
like, no, this is all part of my plan. I wanted to make a spoof No, you didn't you wanted to make the greatest movie of all time. And the reason why it's the greatest movie. Now it's because you actually intended it to be that if you intended it to be a spoof, it would have died on the vine.

Devin Watson 39:18
Yeah. I can see that. I mean, I can take away a lesson from Kubrick as well. You don't have to serve all the answers on a silver platter to your audience. Kubrick doesn't. Yeah, the shining on 2001 premiered. It was at the Cinerama dome, I think. There were a lot of ala stars on the time watching it and they came out and one of them was a Rock Hudson. He said, like, what the hell did I just watch? And people were always calling or writing to him asking questions about what what did this mean and what did that mean? And he actually loved Those kinds of things because he said like if you're walking away from a film and you're asking questions and you're starting a dialogue about it, then I've done my job.

Alex Ferrari 40:08
I mean, it's the shining is a perfect example of that. I mean, if you want to talk about horror movies, argue one of the greatest horror movies of all time, even though it's very far removed from King's original work, but as a as a piece of art as a piece of cinema. What he did is is a masterwork and I always found that movie to probably be one of the scariest not particularly, because there's a lot of jumps jumpscares and there's maybe a couple but it is that it's terrifying on a psychological level. And I found out because I'm a Cooper account, that he actually went to ad agencies and learned about subliminal, subliminal advertising. So he would sneak their stuff inside of the shining that's built just to screw with a psychologically the vices know the stuff that he did in the shining, where it's just like, it's terrifying. And you can't put you can't point at it. Like in Freddie like, oh, Freddie scares the hell out of me. Or Jaws, like oh, that scares the hell they are the haunted house in China, you're just like, it's about a dude losing his mind and is about to kill his family, which is also a terrifying idea that your father could lose his mind and kill you. Like that's also a very, very Primal Primal Fear that somebody close

Devin Watson 41:31
to you that you love and that loves you is suddenly just gonna snap and try to kill you.

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Right let alone your father or your mother. But I think specifically the father figure in throughout humanity, I think isn't there some sort of thing that the the baby when it's born within like, the first few weeks looks more like the bad evolutionary so that so that that doesn't kill it, thinking that it's something it's somebody else's baby or something along those lines? It's something really deep seated, but then add in all the craziness. And then do you I mean, I'm assuming you saw room was it from two? on two through seven? Yeah. 283370. My God, what a great like you just sit there going? Well, that that makes sense. Like, I did it do that? Why is that window go nowhere? What are you doing, Stanley?

Devin Watson 42:17
Yep. Well, that's, that's the funny thing about Kubrick that I always I loved is that he was just a stickler for detail with everything. And if it's in there, it's in there for a reason that he had in his mind. So it if you find it, he wanted it there.

Alex Ferrari 42:33
Okay, you're not gonna make mistakes, you're not gonna make mistakes. He doesn't make those kind of like, oh, that just kind of fell into it. Like, no, he's, he spends three years, 456 years, seven years, prepping a film, so it was insane. Now, one thing that horror movies have a lot of is disposable characters. Can you explain why there's so many disposable characters in horror movies?

Devin Watson 42:57
Okay, so, to me, the disposable character is one who, if you can get them to convey some important piece of information, that's great. But usually you want something like the victim, like you need somebody to be the victim of something. I'm trying to remember that one.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
Well, in jaws in Jaws, the very first the very first victim at the beginning of the movie, the girl. Yeah, we don't know who she is. All we know, she's a pretty girl swimming in the ocean at night, which obviously is not a good idea.

Devin Watson 43:28
Right? And then you see her just get yanked a little bit, and then she's trying to stay up off the water and then boom, she's gone. She's there to convey the information to the audience. Like there's something in the water, it's big, and it's hungry, and it ate her very quick, very, very quickly. The beginning of the movie prophecy. That's what I was thinking of. Her walking. Yeah, no, no, actually the one from the 70s it's the environmental. It has Armand Assante in it actually.

Alex Ferrari 43:56
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Devin Watson 43:56
Yeah, the the very beginning you have these guys are hunting out in the woods with some dogs and the dogs kind of over a cliff with with their own ropes or something. And then you hear the dogs just like start freaking out and then they don't hear anything and they start climbing down and you see it from one of the they've got like spiel and or helmets on so they're, they're going down into this like crevasse is and you see, really from one guy's perspective after he's been yanked down in there. And he's on the ground. He's all he's already bloody but you just you hear something coming out. I mean, he's just screaming his head off as he's about to get torn apart by this mythical beast thing.

Alex Ferrari 44:45
That's insane. Now what are some of the common pitfalls in in horror screenwriting?

Devin Watson 44:52
The one thing that I've seen a lot of is it's it's actually not just horror, but it expands everything. Writing too description in scene action words like, like, Okay, look at what is it's called scene action things are happening, make it happen, don't describe the books on the bookshelf, or anything like that. It's like, they don't care about that unless it's unless it's really important that your character has red hair, and it's gonna become important later. Don't Don't even bother divulging that information you don't have to

Alex Ferrari 45:22
write in that is absolutely true. And that's why I always called screenwriting, the Haiku of writing. Narrative writing because it's, it's you got to say a lot more with less. And that's the that's, that's the art of it, as opposed to a novel where you can do a page of the book, and the leather bound glistened off the

Devin Watson 45:46
I, I, I try to tell people, the first five pages in a horror scripts are the most important. You got to get to the point really fast, which not you don't want to get the entire point is to say like, there's something dangerous in the woods, that's killing people. Okay. Explain. In five pages show in five pages, what makes it so dangerous to go in the woods? Or don't go into that house? You know, somebody, somebody got murdered in there like 30 years ago, and it's haunted. You got that first. If you can even do it in less, that's even better?

Alex Ferrari 46:22
Well, just jazz is a perfect example.

Devin Watson 46:25
Yeah. And if you keep it under five, great, and then once you've got that, then you could you got a good framework to build on, because then you say, like, Alright, how much do we show or not show? Well, the nice thing about horror is, it's about not showing as much as about showing.

Alex Ferrari 46:41
Yeah, I mean, it's got, I mean, I'm sure it's just not the first to do this. But he always said that you'll you want to hear the murderer behind the door. You don't want to actually see it, because it's gonna be a lot more terrifying that way. And it's, it's very, very true. I mean, that mean, the masterwork of psychos shower scene, which is you don't ever see the knife go enter ever. Right. But we do in our mind.

Devin Watson 47:07
And then you see the blood trickle down the drain is a masterwork. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 47:13
I mean, there's a document there's a documentary just dedicated to the shower. See? Yeah, I've seen it. And it's so good.

Devin Watson 47:20
It's so good. Just the deep analysis of it. It's like, wow, okay, that's pretty awesome. Um, the same thing with Reservoir Dogs the the ear seen? No, because they pan away when he's about to cut the guy's ear off. And all you hear is him screaming. And then later on, you see the guy with the ears saying hello, hey,

Alex Ferrari 47:43
did they actually I remember that? I'm not sure if I remember in the lore, did Quintin shoot the year and then shot that other version, just to see, or he or he's, or he's had that idea? Like, I don't let's let's pan away, which obviously just makes the scene so much more gruesome and terrifying. And it's, it's, it's absolute insanity.

Devin Watson 48:04
Oh, yeah. And that's, that's part of with horror, what I call the, like, the million ILM theory of your audience's imagination has the power of a million ILM that definitely could not pay you and not have enough money in your budget to pay for the kind of effects that you would want. But it's by simply moving it away, panning away or not showing it but you just hear it, you know, sound is half the picture. So if you can, if you can get a good Foley mix, then that's a lot easier to do. And a lot cheaper to do than say, coming up with a bunch of gore and makeup effects and things like that. It probably showed the after effects you want. But you

Alex Ferrari 48:48
know that there is a story. That I mean, this movie we're talking about a little bit of a side note here, but taxi driver, not are arguably a horror movie, but definitely a disturbing, and definitely a pretty bloody one as well. Talking about filmmakers, the lore is, and I actually heard this, Quentin Tarantino was telling this story, and he didn't even know if it was really because I don't think you'd ever confirmed it with Marty or not. But the way the story goes is that in taxi driver, they went through the the rating process in 1976. And it came back as x rated. And then the studio executive said you're gonna have to cut this this or this out, or else this movie's not gonna get released. And Marty, at that age at that time, was so distraught that someone was going to I mean, kill his masterwork that he got a loaded gun, sat in his room and got drunk with a loaded gun. And a bunch of his friends came over which were like the Palma. Steven Coppola they all came over because they heard what was going on. And they talked him out of not going to kill the executive. But then the the way he got around that, did you know the you know how he got the R rating?

Devin Watson 50:19
I think what did you read just resubmit it?

Alex Ferrari 50:22
No, he did resubmit it. But he just took one point off the red in the blue. So the Bloods a little bit more burgundy as it as opposed to a bright red. That's all he did. He didn't just change the color grade. That's it. And he did not cut he did not cut a frame.

Devin Watson 50:42
And that's, that's Yeah, I can't believe that as something that would have happened. The funny thing, Texas Chainsaw Massacre got an extra rating when it first came out. And it was like, well, it's so it's so gory. And like, if you go and watch it, nobody actually except for except for one guy gets hung up on a meat hook. And leatherface gets himself in the leg with the chainsaw. So like a tiny cut. Really? There's no real I mean, there's no gore on screen. Really. It's like got skeletons you got.

Alex Ferrari 51:18
It's disturbing. It's disturbing. Yeah.

Devin Watson 51:20
Right. It's all the implied horror of things. The implied terror of like there's a scary guy's wearing a human base for his Reza mask and he's got a chainsaw and it's like, yep, okay.

Alex Ferrari 51:32
Yeah, x rating. Now, what advice do you have for screenwriters wanting to add twists and turns to their horror screenplay, which arguably one of the best twist of all time is Sixth Sense. And if you haven't seen that movie, I'm sorry. We're gonna now ruin it for you. It's not our fault since it came out in the 90s. not our fault. But yeah, that's one of the Greatest Artists of All Time. Is there any and then of course, m night. I think he's been fighting to get back to that ever since. And he kind of I think he almost pigeon holed themselves into like, okay, now every single script they do has to have an insane twist at the end of it, or else it's not an M Night Shyamalan thing, because it was just so powerful. But I'm a huge fan of M night. I think he's, he says his missus, but everybody has his business.

Devin Watson 52:18
Well, I would say if you want to include a twist to make it, try to make it something that's going to take it to a homeowner wobbles like, okay, you think you're watching this straight up, slash reflect. And at the end, you put a twist in where it's like, Oh, well. This guy is actually killing people for a reason. Every bad all they say every villain is telling their own story. They're the hero. They're the hero of their story. Absolutely. Like I try to use a classic one I've used as Vader. from Star Wars. It's like right yeah, he's in his mind he's he's actually a good guy because he's trying to stop the world sup the galaxy from collapsing into chaos. And well, it didn't quite work out for him but

Alex Ferrari 53:04
are

Devin Watson 53:06
Ricardo montalban con in Star Trek to probably one of the greatest villains ever on screen that I've ever seen. He he feels like he's righteously justified in doing everything he did. He did to Kirk because he stranded them on that planet. He the planet was basically destroyed and turned into a desert. His wife died. all this other stuff is like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to the minute I get out of here, I'm coming for you. So you don't have to just have a generic villain. That's one way to actually add a twist to it. My Bloody Valentine is a good example of that horror genre. You can even make the villain sympathetic in that way more. Like I can kind of understand why he's why he or she is doing this. Well, I

Alex Ferrari 53:59
mean, Hannibal. I mean, Hannibal Lecter? I mean, oh, yeah. I mean, we, you he almost becomes a hero, not inside in Sansa lambs, kind of because, okay, he could argue it. But he's definitely an antihero if he is a hero, but he's not the main villain built Buffalo Bill is in the first house and lamps. But the other movies that came afterwards. He's essentially the hero of those Hannibal and I mean, it's the brilliance of that character and of Anthony Hopkins portrayal is in Sansa Lynch you're rooting for Hannibal, you you want him to get out? You arguably want them to eat some people. And it's disturbing. It's disturbing as an audience member that you're rooting for a Catholic cannibalistic serial killer,

Devin Watson 54:48
right? Well, you got the the heat prefers to eat free range rude. So it's like, oh, he's taking care of a problem we all have.

Alex Ferrari 54:56
Right? He's that eating a little girl in the puppy.

Devin Watson 55:01
Yeah, but I mean he's also has very well I guess you could say refined tastes because this

Alex Ferrari 55:05
fava beans obviously,

Devin Watson 55:07
yes. And also it's like, Okay, well he he ate that one the one flutist in the orchestra because he wasn't playing right? Because you wanted the orchestra to sound better.

Alex Ferrari 55:20
But you know, but we laugh but that's an A great character, like a great thing for that character to be because in his whacked out world that makes sense on the ending. I mean, when he's like, I'm gonna have an old friend for dinner one of the greatest ending lines of movie history. You want him to eat him? You want him that guy was such a prick. It's just absolutely a brilliant portrayal and that that won the Oscar, I think is one of the few horror movies that won the Oscar I don't think or is it the first I'm not even sure.

Devin Watson 55:51
Actually, it's swept pretty.

Alex Ferrari 55:54
Yeah. All five out of five majors. Yeah.

Devin Watson 55:56
Yeah. So and then actually, I think that tied. But it was, it was one of the first ones I think that actually got serious recognition by the Academy. And just by it's not like we go back to Poltergeist or something like that. It's like, oh, here's here's a fun summer horror film. It's like, no, this is real serious dark stuff. psychological horror. That you the monster is a human but he's super intelligent. Both Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lecter. But you you really you want to cheer on him. You want buffalo Billy a cot? I mean, that's just kind of given even. I keep going back to was clerks to with when they were parroting the whole scene with goodbye horses. With that, but yeah, I mean, even Buffalo Bill, he's he's a smart guy. So you're dealing with highly intelligent people who are also well in one case, cannibalistic The other one is just making a pseudo suit out of women and

Alex Ferrari 57:09
such a terrifying and for screenwriters listening to make a villain. Just a couple of decisions, changes Hannibal from the guy we're rooting for, to an absolutely despicable person. And in the in the hands of a worse screenwriter and a worse director and a worse performer. Hannibal could have been a throwaway character who had no depth there. We really didn't love it. The what makes us love Silence of the Lambs is not only the plot, but it's Hannibal and his interactions with clarities. But Buffalo Bill does nothing redeemable where Hannibal even when he's escaping, and he's like, you know, terrifying. You know, eating those guys and they kick the dog in many ways. And that's the things like if you want you want to make a villain villain just him kick a dog or slap a baby and he's an automatic villain, or she's an automatic villain. Well, that's what the that's what the screenwriter did with Hannibal, but Hannibal was the dog. So you wanted the dog to get revenge in many ways. You know,

Devin Watson 58:18
I I did kind of go there with the curse as well, we we had this one character that was a little girl. That was the daughter of the acting Sheriff and the monster gets her. And later on, the sheriff, the acting sheriff, played by Lewis Mandalore. He finds basically her hand in that's it. That's all it's all up to her. At that point. I was like, Yeah, I can't look it. Okay. It looks like I had to go there because I had to give him enough strong enough reason to number one, I was trying to kill two birds with one stone with us. I

Alex Ferrari 59:00
was no pun intended.

Devin Watson 59:01
Yeah, I was trying to make sure that he had a strong enough reason to go after this thing to believe that it was real, but also to let the main character off the hook because he kept thinking that main character was the one doing all this was killing. So I was like, Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to well, first I killed the cat and then I killed her. So I didn't save the cat. I killed it.

Alex Ferrari 59:27
Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests are what are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Devin Watson 59:36
I really think aliens. James Cameron script is a good one to read. Especially if you can get a copy of that Scott everything, especially stuff that was like eventually cut out. That's a really good read. longer, but not bad. I'm North by Northwest. Hitchcock. Yes, definitely want to read that one. And I do want to say read Clockwork Orange, read the script for Clockwork Orange. But at the same time, if you haven't read the the novel that it's based on by Anthony Burgess, get that to, just so you can see how far Cooper deviated

Alex Ferrari 1:00:21
it was. Yeah.

Devin Watson 1:00:23
But as far as it being close to the material, it's like, okay, I can see, I can see where he drew this from, you want to if you want to, if you're especially if you're getting into adaptations, you, that's a good one to look at when you want to compare the two. Because you have basically a record of, here's what Anthony Burgess wrote, here's what Kubrick wrote. And that's what's on the screen. So you can actually follow that path.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:43
And I watched, I watched Clockwork Orange the other day for I hadn't seen in years, and I just watched just the first 15 minutes. How that was ever released is beyond me how that got past sensors, how that got a studio put money behind that. It is, in fact got released today, it would be it would be an uproar that nobody would even understand. And he was doing it in the 70s it's absolutely remarkable, really is.

Devin Watson 1:01:16
Right. And I think part of why he was able to get away with it was after 2001, which was huge budget. Um, he was he really couldn't find because of the, you know, box office numbers and everything with that he wasn't able to get the kind of budgets that he wanted similar. So he's like, well, what can I do that I can just kind of run and gun it almost.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:45
Yeah, it's an It almost looks like an indie film. Like, I know exactly what you're saying.

Devin Watson 1:01:49
Yeah. Yeah. And, and he, he didn't have exactly a really huge budget on it. But he was because of that he was, I think, got a lot more control leniency at least from the, from the studio producing it. And then Warner Brothers was the distributor. And I think there was some problems that did get initially an X rating. He did have to cut a few bits and pieces. That's one of the reasons why the William Tell Overture scene is in is it's super fast. Because he originally did sorry, he originally did shoot it, just regular speed, but it's like, Okay, if we speed it up, it's gonna be harder for people to you know, make out stuff in there. So

Alex Ferrari 1:02:33
because he was having like, manassa tie was it was

Devin Watson 1:02:37
Yeah, was pretty graphic. Yeah, with two underage girls. So

Alex Ferrari 1:02:40
no, I didn't even realize it was Jesus Christ. That's true.

Devin Watson 1:02:43
Yeah. The way this stuff is. Yeah, the the, the book was a lot more graphic about that it was not wants to say completely consensual. So yeah, so that again, that's another one of those things. Like, here's how you can skate around stuff. Nowadays. You can release video on demand digital, plenty of platforms. And without

Alex Ferrari 1:03:07
ratings. Yeah. Without ratings.

Devin Watson 1:03:09
Yeah. And that's, that's kind of nice. If you wanted to, but if you ever want your thing to go, you want your film to go on to like, say you want to get on HBO or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or even even Showtime. I mean. So looking at David Lynch's revival Twin Peaks, and it's like, okay, that the big budget, even he actually finally got to do a lot of the things you've wanted to do with that show. And still further kind of explore the horror in that too. Which was nice. And even had his Kubrick Ian moment as well. And one episode, I call it the Kubrick Ian moment when they're flashing back to the creation of Bob with the nuclear test blast. That whole sequence is like, yeah, this is like the Stargate almost one.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:02
Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Devin Watson 1:04:07
You don't have to go and hit studios up. You mean nowadays, man with camera technology, what it is, and everything else. You can you can be a Robert Rodriguez if you want. You can. You can write it, you can polish it, you can actually put it up yourself if you want. There are a lot more alternative avenues now. Then, like, Oh, I got to go get an agent and I have to get representation and I have to do all these writing assignments and things like that. You don't necessarily have to do that these days. There are filmmakers popping up all over the place and especially like this past year. As with the with the lockdown happening and everything. One thing that I noticed was a lot of solo filmmakers were making, essentially existential horror and putting them up shortfilms putting them up on YouTube. And there were they're actually pretty amazing because it's like, all I got nothing better to do I got a camera, it's me, and I'm trapped in here. So let's make

Alex Ferrari 1:05:10
that happen. Yeah, let's make something happen. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Devin Watson 1:05:19
Basically, there's what you know, and there's a whole lot of stuff that you don't know any of, it's gonna take you a long time to figure it out. So if you're in your 20s you don't think you know everything? I mean, you think you know everything, but you're probably not going to figure it all out until you hit maybe your mid 30s. And then even then, it's not everything.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:40
No, no. Yeah. But that can be said every decade. You think you knew everything, but you don't. But I would agree with you. Yeah, it's gonna take a minute. Yeah, is that this is not gonna happen overnight, you're gonna learn a whole bunch along the way. And can you tell me about the work that you're doing with the abl artists foundation?

Devin Watson 1:05:59
Oh, yes, that is. Steven latinus is a film composer, who he's he's blind, he has retinitis pigmentosa. And one day, we actually, we talked on the phone and he said, Hey, I'm thinking about trying to do this nonprofit that helps disabled musicians be able to, you know, get not only access to hardware and software and things like that for for composing, but also to promote the work of disabled musicians. And he ended up while I and one other person Stacy, we sat down and we actually came up with a design and we built the thing out, and we're actually just doing a refit now on the whole thing, because now we're doing he's doing contests and grants, and everything else is really expanding very fast now. But yeah, any anybody that's a partner company on there, gets they offer all their services and stuff for basically 50% off like the minimum you have to you can offer 50% so once you're verified disabled person, which there's a verification process and it's actually not that hard to do. Once you do that, then you have access to all these massive discounts on software and and I think even hardware and even lessons. Yeah, and it's, it's keeps growing. I think we're still getting suggestions from people like, Hey, you got to hit these people up like okay, well, and Stephens really grown out from that, to the point where he's, he's become almost a spokesperson now for disabled musicians and don't composers and everything. And it's

Alex Ferrari 1:07:51
awesome. And where can people find your movies and your books?

Devin Watson 1:07:56
Oh, they're available on amazon.com there's the cursed and there's also that's the movie, main feature. And then for screenwriting, the nature of fear is on available on Amazon. I do have some short films up on YouTube as well that I did. And there was one I worked on it was supposed to be a pilot for a web series called asphalt she Wolf's nice, great title, which is Yeah, that was actually my, my writing partner on that producing partner help with that. And then golden opportunity which is more of a sci fi dystopian it's kind of weird that I when I look back on it now, we shot it a few years before Trump became president and then I look at it go like this is what could have happened.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:50
Very cool, man. Nevermind thank you so much for being on the show. Man I enjoyed are going down the rabbit hole of horror of war in order screenwriting and, and just geeking out a little bit with another film geek. So I appreciate you man. Thank you so much.

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BPS 135: The Way of Story with Catherine Ann Jones

January 11, 2023August 25, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

We have award-winning author, playwright, actor, teacher, and writing consultant, Catherine Ann Jones on the show today. She’s authored a number of consciousness-raising books, plays, film, and television scripts, including, The Christmas Wife (film), Unlikely Angel with Dolly Parton, The Way of Story: the craft & soul of writing (book), Freud’s Oracle (Play), and several others.

Unlikely Angel stars Dolly Parton who plays a self-absorbed singer who meets an untimely death and gets an opportunity to earn her wings if she helps a family lost in the tragic death of their Mother find each other again. This should be a Holiday movie tradition.

In our interview, we talk about her book, The Way Of Story which offers an integrative approach to writing all forms of narrative.

This illustrated book contains evocative insights from the author’s own professional journey. The emphasis on the integration of both a solid craft and an experiential inner discovery makes this writing book unique.

She helps others on their writing journeys through workshops, consulting, and writing

Following her passions for truth-seeking and dramatic self-expression Catherine’s written six books. Her most recent book is a 2013 publication, Heal Your Self With Writing.

Catherine was a writer on the popular 90s TV show, Touch by an Angel.

The series generally revolved around the “cases” of Monica (played by Roma Downey), an angel recently promoted from the “search and rescue” division, who works under the guidance of Tess (played by Della Reese), a sarcastic boss who is sometimes hard on her young colleague but is more of a surrogate mother than a mentor. The trio of angels is sent to Earth to tell depressed and troubled people that God loves them and hasn’t forgotten them.

Let’s delve into Catherine’s writing process and how she helps others achieve excellent stories, shall we?

Enjoy my conversation with Catherine Ann Jones.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:07
Catherine, thank you so much for coming on the show. I truly, truly appreciate it. We had the pleasure of getting to know each other on one of my other shows. And we've just started talking like, Well, I think you'd be a great guest for the next level soul podcast. So thank you so much for coming on. Glad to be here. So I wanted to dive right in. And it's just a heavy question to start with, I'm going to start with it anyway, to see how where our conversation leads. What do you believe is your mission in this life?

Catherine Ann Jones 0:40
Well, in India, where I've spent several, many years, there's a word Sanskrit word called dharma. And Dharma means the law of your existence, it's more than career or job. It's what you were kind of what you came here to do. And if you can be fortunate enough to hook up with, you know, to know what that is, life really becomes magical. So I think my Dharma is writing and teaching. I love both. And I'm fortunate that I've been able to do both.

Alex Ferrari 1:20
And you've been able to, and you've done so much in your life, start, you know, acting and play writing and you know, playing in the shark infested waters of Hollywood, survived and survived with a smile on your face no less. Did you? How long did it take you to find that path? Because I'm assuming when you came out, you didn't like Well, I'm gonna go right and teach. I'm assuming it took a minute to get there.

Catherine Ann Jones 1:48
Well, when I was 12 years old, I wanted to raise Arabian horses.

Alex Ferrari 1:54
Okay.

Catherine Ann Jones 1:55
When I was 18, I wanted to be a missionary in foreign lands. That last my first year of college, then I read and thought too much became an agnostic. And so I had been acting, so I switch to universities to drama school. And then my passion was acting, which I did for several years in New York. And, but I always had a parallel passion. I guess what we called it, finding the truth, whatever that is, you know, at that point. So those parallel instincts pulled me each way, the passion to dramatically express myself, and the passion to go to India or wherever life took me to find the answers to my questions. And does that? Yes, that was,

Alex Ferrari 3:00
yeah, that answers that. But let me ask you, do you think that we have to go through figuring out what we don't want to do in order to find what we do want to do? or do something? Some people just find what they want to do in life? Because I mean, so many of us have to go. I think every one of us almost every one of us. does things like you said acting you enjoyed acting, but that kind of led you towards the writing world.

Catherine Ann Jones 3:26
Yeah, that was all connected. Right? I think I said, when we you interviewed me last about the writing. I can't think of a better background to write plays and movies and television than to be a professional actor. Moliere and Shakespeare started as actors after all, they're not that I'm quiet. Anyway, um, I think it depends. Everything is individual. I, one thing I believe passionately, is there's no one way to write. There's no one way to live your life. It varies person to person. So the search is really to find yourself and discover your own path and process and honor that

Alex Ferrari 4:17
Yeah. And that's the thing I it took me it's taken me 40 years. To find my path, though. I dabbled a little bit in it. And I would see hints of it. And I'd be like, and I would reject it, which is the third of the thing that we do is, as human beings is like, no, that's no, I don't want to do that. Because I have my mind. Like, I want to be a missionary. I can't go teach and stuff or I want to be an actor. I don't want to go teach and stuff. And I've had that happen. But the moment that I ran into my my calling, which is what I'm doing now, is I became so much more happy because I was angry and bitter and oh Oh my god, I was so angry and bitter at people. And I felt that I'm like, I need to do this, I need to do that I need to be this. And those those wants and needs, by the way, haven't gone away. And I think they all still work within the world that I'm in. But I'm much happier now. Because I've fallen into

Catherine Ann Jones 5:17
that's what I call one of my exercises and heal yourself with writing both the workshop and the book is I call it the coming home exercise. And finding your Dharma is a coming home experience. You know, there can be other coming home experiences, meeting someone for the first time and you feel you've known them all your life. Acting was that for me when I first started, it just seem almost too natural. No. So coming in what you describe when you found what you want to do, that's the coming home, you're coming home to your self, your capital SELF.

Alex Ferrari 6:04
Yes, exactly. And, and it's so funny, because when I first picked up a microphone to be a podcaster, which is insane thing, I liked it. And then I was like, wait a minute, I kind of really enjoyed doing this. And I've actually really kind of enjoying talking to people and, and meeting people. And it's just and then I'm able to help other people and things like that. But it took me a minute before I accepted it, you know,

Catherine Ann Jones 6:29
doesn't matter. As long as we get there. Some people lead their whole lives and haven't found what what did for them. I think the thing to remember, there's a saying in India, it's better to be a good servant than a bad King. So it doesn't matter what it is your Dharma is there's no judgment on that. It's just finding what's right for you.

Alex Ferrari 6:58
And connecting with it and when it does show up, not to reject it.

Catherine Ann Jones 7:03
Now, well, my word could be honored. Yeah, I think that's the word serve it

Alex Ferrari 7:09
Serve it. Because it's true. Like it's I think that most of us go throughout life, walking against the current. And we like fight, what our incent instincts, our nature is and things like that. But the moment you sit down and let that current understand that there is a current taking you where you need to go, life becomes so much easier and so much more happy you become.

Catherine Ann Jones 7:34
It's the kind of surrender really, my go when you find your spiritual path. When you find your Dharma, once that's in place, you can it's there is a kind of surrender of the ego, and that the invisible and visible allies magically appear to help you on that journey. against it the opposite.

Alex Ferrari 8:01
Right?

Catherine Ann Jones 8:01
It like climbing upstream.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
Yeah. And I love I love the term you use invisible and visible ally show up? Because, yes, because there was definitely forces of things that happen you just like, how did that happen? And in my, in my journey, just with my simple podcasts, I've had access to talk to people who are just insane kind of people I've been able to get access to. And sometimes it's just like, oh, an email dropped in, you're like, how did that happen? Like, how did that connection happen? Like it's it's mind blowing. But I would have killed years earlier, to have a sit down conversation for an hour or two with some of these individuals. And now they're asking me to this conversation, which is mind blowing.

Catherine Ann Jones 8:49
Yes, but it's made you who you are. Maybe you wouldn't done it as well, it should do it now. If you had done it 15 - 20 years ago, who knows?

Alex Ferrari 9:00
That's very true. That's very true. Now one of the things we've been talking a little bit about is finding that inner mission, the inner, inner purpose of yours, how can you better connect with the inner voice? Because we all have that inner voice that thing in the gut, which we ignore a lot of the time. How do you attune yourself to that?

Catherine Ann Jones 9:25
Well, it just so happened so wrote a book about it that it's that book called heal yourself with writing, Scott double themes. It's about self healing, grief and trauma, my graduate degrees and depth psychology young in psychology, and it's about deepening the dialogue with the self capital S, not the ego but the self, that deeper part of us and and I've created short exercises prompts that I use in the workshops and the book. And that seems to it's amazing people have come out of that workshop and say this was life changing. Because they find parts of themselves. They didn't know they were there. And they read what they've written. And they say, Where did that come from? So they're writing from a deeper place.

Alex Ferrari 10:26
So when you're writing, you're almost tapping into that inner voice, because you're just kind of letting it flow of consciousness almost like that.

Catherine Ann Jones 10:34
Yeah, it's, I call it in a way an intuitive inner voice. You know, it's inside. It's a kind of thing. I know an example i given. I also have in the book, heal yourself with writing anecdotes, from my own journey to illustrate the points I'm teaching. And show it to you tell you one, this is it's a pretty good story. I was living in New York, what I call my theater years. And an actor, actress friend of mine had just come back from making a film in Europe, and invited me to her flap her apartment on Central Park south. So I went there. And as soon as I walked into her apartment, something I felt very uneasy. There was no logical reason why should I know this woman for years, there was no problem. But I felt very uncomfortable. Like I shouldn't be there. And I should leave. But of course, my logical left brain came in and said, Oh, that's nonsense. So she placed me in a big chair by the window overlooking Central Park, where she ordered out for tea and snacks and things, and sat in that chair. And then it was even stronger. It was like get out of dodge now. And I stayed about 5 - 10 minutes more struggling with that, and it became so overpowering. I suddenly stood up and I said, Patricia, I have to go. I will talk to you later. You know, which was quite rude of me. And so I got home about 15 minutes later, 20 minutes later, I live not far away over by Lincoln Center. As I was walking in the door to my place, the phone rang. I picked it up, it was Patricia. She says Catherine, you won't believe what happened five minutes after you left. I said what? Now in these old buildings in New York, they often have AC you know, been huge box the size of a room on top of the building. It was a very windy day in the winter. Somehow that big, huge thing as big as half a room, fell off the roof crashed into her window, landed on the chair I had been sitting here I wouldn't have been killed. So the moral is, listen to that intuitive voice. It may even save your life. True Stories. So from then on, I was in my 20s. Then, from then on, I never doubted my inner voice says something like it might say don't walk the usual way home go around. I just follow it. It never lies.

Alex Ferrari 13:47
It's always got your best interests in mind. Yeah. Well, the thing is, when dealing with your inner, inner voice, or gut instinct, or whatever you'd like to call it, how can you balance the voice in your head with the feeling in your gut, because that mind is the most powerful and wonderful thing but it's also your darkest enemy sometimes?

Catherine Ann Jones 14:11
Well, they're both our highs. We don't want to throw out one or the other. I love integrating the two giving because we're conditioned in a way and educated in a way totally listened to the logical left brain, right? And the intuitive voice gets short shrift. So the work is bringing you know listening to both at least equally.

Alex Ferrari 14:38
So but there are moments where that brain that brain when you overthink something and your guts telling you just do this and then you start making excuses, or there's fear involved, which there's generally always fear involved. Things like that their fear our desire, fear or desire writing for us. Exactly. So if your mind is creating, let's say fearful thoughts or fearful thing, like, take that job, no, don't take that job because if you take that job, this will happen or this or Apple, this happened, but your guts telling you no idiot take the job?

Catherine Ann Jones 15:17
Well, there's an interesting something in Young's autobiography. It's a wonderful book. He wrote it when he was in its 80s. And one of the things he says that always stuck with me is that, you know, that intuitive voice gives you little murmurings, like, do this, or don't do this, like little whispers in your ear. And when you don't listen, sometimes you need to be hit over the head with this stick. I had a feeling for about three years, I should leave New York. But logically, my son was still in school with one attempt to finish high school, before I got out of the city. And I did a Fulbright year took my son with me, came back and my apartment was stolen by a student, I had let stay there. Now there's a saying in Manhattan, people will kill together great apartment. Right? You know what, she didn't do that. But she changed the locks. And anyway, I would that was my head over the head. So it was a terrible thing to happen. But in the end, it was a blessing because I realized this was my hit over the head. It was time to leave New York. And about that time I won that award in how in Los Angeles for one of my plays, and it was optioned by MGM studio. So I had no reason to get out, you know. But for three years, I had the I had the gentle whispering in the ear from that inner voice. But I didn't listen. So it had to be something extreme to

Alex Ferrari 17:11
say yeah, and yes, the structure of the universe will try to teach you lessons. And if you don't listen to, when it's a gentle, they will then sometimes literally will crash into you, literally a car crash, something will happen that will force you to go down the path that you need to go or less or learn the lesson. I hear

Catherine Ann Jones 17:32
all the time from participants in my workshops, that like someone got cancer, because they were doing a job that hated or whether or in a relationship that was not positive. And the cancer woke them up. And they live in they said the cancer is the best thing that happened to me, it changed my life. My life is so much better. Now. I would recommend though listening to the gentle voice and not go through having your home stolen or cancer.

Alex Ferrari 18:08
There's so much pain that we as as humans go through unnecessary if we would just be more connected within ourselves to go inward as opposed to go outward. There's so much we look for happiness outward, we look for peace outward. Everything's outward. But all of that lives within us. Do you agree?

Catherine Ann Jones 18:31
Not only that, psychologically, I think there's a fear of change. I lived 20 years in New York City, you know, and to suddenly start a new life a new career in Hollywood. It's daunting, you know, on the way. So sometimes, even though the current status quo doesn't make us happy, it's familiar. It's happened is vitual. But going on to what you're saying, you growing, you're going up to the higher level here. And yes, I think the most important part is enter. In the external will express the image

Alex Ferrari 19:13
with yes without question. Now, you wrote the book, heal yourself with writing. What do you see writing? How do you see writing as a potential healing force in a person's life?

Catherine Ann Jones 19:27
Well, first of all, I developed the workshop at Esalen Institute, Big Sur where I'm going Monday morning to teach a live class with real people. I know, right? I'm so happy. So I developed it there. Because I've wanted to do I had done the way of story workshop for years and the book, which is for people interested in writing, all forms of narrative. This was different. This is a course I wanted to do for writers and riders to use writing as a healing modality, a self healing modality, especially for grief and trauma. And anyway, I had very powerful results from the participants at our salon. And that led me to write the book. So it's not about learning to write, it's just letting I do it in such a way, these short 510 minute exercises, where you write from the unconscious, you know, and it's sort of automatic, but it's specific, I call it focus journaling. It's not about write whatever you want, you listen to the prompt, and you write whatever associations arise, and people are amazed what comes out, which is, it's also never the same because everyone's story is unique. So lucky for me, it's never boring.

Alex Ferrari 21:02
Now, I know a lot of people out there. You know, when we're born, when people are always telling us, you have to have to find a career, you have to make money, they have a stable life and all of this kind of stuff. How How do you? How did you balance a career in Hollywood, which is, I have a lot of experience in Hollywood. So I know how hard that is the very kind of physical or egocentric world of Hollywood, or of any career for that matter, and a spiritual path. And I think a lot of people have trouble balancing those two, not from Hollywood, but just as general career.

Catherine Ann Jones 21:44
Thanks to the pandemic, the last two years, you know, I these years, I usually travel all over the world teaching workshops. Thanks to the pandemic, all of that was cancelled, I had to stay in Oh, hi, California. And I had no excuse not to write, I had been asked to do my memoir over the last few years. And I kept putting it off. And so this year, I wrote two memoirs, they were published. And that's the theme of the main memoirs, which is really more than autobiography starting, when I was living in Japan at the age of four, the books called Buddha and the dancing girl. And that became, it was two experiences I had as a child in Japan. And that became an archetypal metaphor for my whole life. Buddha is a search for the spiritual dancing girl is the compulsion to express dramatically through acting and writing. So these two seemingly polar opposites, were the driving force of the last several decades. And at some point, they had to merge. And when they become integrated to use Young's word, then there's no out and in that sort of one, one, I don't know if that makes sense. In my experience,

Alex Ferrari 23:25
fair enough.

Catherine Ann Jones 23:27
So it's like, I was always having some success in New York as an actor and later as a playwright. And the first thing I do instead of opportunistically make, make something out of the success. I would get on a flight to India to my teacher and spend three months, two months, whatever. It's not the best career move to do that. But it was my way and it worked. And then when it merges, there's no where I realized there's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. There's no one to be.

Alex Ferrari 24:10
You've mentioned, the India's one of your favorite places to visit in the world.

Catherine Ann Jones 24:18
No, no, that's not exactly what I'd say. The climates the worst in the world for me, right? Um, I get terrible jetlag. I said, India is my spiritual home.

Alex Ferrari 24:32
That's okay. So,

Catherine Ann Jones 24:34
I used to dream I told a friend of mine who also went there later, I said, if only our teacher had been born in Hawaii,

Alex Ferrari 24:46
but yeah, you do what you got to do. So can you do what you got to do to find you know, inner peace and enlightenment? When can you talk Can you talk a little bit about your journeys in India? I'm meeting either sages, gurus and what they've taught you along the way.

Catherine Ann Jones 25:12
Wow. Okay, I'm going to start with the dream. I have a rug. I'm a young yet not hard to fit the age of seven. Until I was 21. I had a recurring dream. All those years simple dream. I write about this in the Buddha book. But the dream was this I was in the backseat of a car. The car went into a hot desert. And there was no driver at the car, the car was driving itself. Suddenly the car stop this, my door opened by itself. And I looked up and on higher ground, there was a huge rock and a dark scan man appeared. He was wearing a white shirt and a white sheet wrapped around his waist that went to his ankles. And there was a feeling I've come home. That was the dream. This stream reoccurred over many years. When I went to India, I went to South India to a sage I had heard about hits what they call a householder sage, not a monk. He had wife and children. And the car, the taxi drove up, I was in the backseat, I opened the car door, I looked up and out of on a higher ground out of the big white house. This man came out with darker skin, a white shirt and a dhoti wire wrapped around him. It was the same man. It's in my dream. So I never searched anywhere else that was decades ago. And I was very fortunate and that so there was no question this was the right place, for me, may not be for someone

Alex Ferrari 27:17
else. Now, what were some of the things that he taught you along the way?

Catherine Ann Jones 27:23
It's not like this, that I can make a list. It's not a lecture. He didn't lecture he uses a Socratic dialogue. That means if there are no questions, he just sit silently. If there are questions, he would respond, not only to the question, but the questioner. In other words, if you and I asked the same question to the sage, we would get different answers. So that's one thing that struck me right away, he was answering the person who was asking the question.

Alex Ferrari 27:59
So can you explain that a little bit like when you mean he answered the question and the question, or was he answering the question,

Catherine Ann Jones 28:08
what the question are needed to hear what he has to know? Because sage, of course has those cities or powers.

Alex Ferrari 28:18
Interesting.

Catherine Ann Jones 28:19
It's more the presence of a sage. It's not just the words. The philosophy is a Hindu philosophy behind the religion. There's no God concept. It's it's called that Vedanta and vitae Vedanta advisor to means not to and ending with Bhagavad Gita. All these great Indian shoe polish sheds, Rama, Mama Ohashi, yoga, Nanda para Rama, Krishna, these are nisargadatta. These are former sages.

Alex Ferrari 29:03
So is there something that he said to you that changed your path in life? One thing

Catherine Ann Jones 29:11
was, yeah, but it's not what he said. Sometimes I used to worry, because after a talk, I would totally forget everything, anything that was said. Because just being in his presence, you would kind of dissolve you weren't there. So I couldn't and I said, I'm trying to be attentive. But why is you know, I was 23. So I asked a lot of stupid question. But I said, I'm trying to be attentive, but I can't recall what you said. And he said, that's good.

Alex Ferrari 29:48
Interesting, very interesting.

Catherine Ann Jones 29:51
It's a very different process than like being in a lecture at the university.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
Of course. Now, I'm assuming I know from our last conversation that you meditate and you've been meditating for a long time. What What does that practice done for your life? And how has it changed your path?

Catherine Ann Jones 30:13
Oh my goodness. Well, first thing, my worst trait is impatience. I'm an astrologer on the side. And I have nine planets in fire. So it's good for teaching. It's good for acting. It's not so great for the personal life. But, you know, so to meditate for the last 4050 years, which, that's how long it's been. You know, you have to sit still to meditate. And it's, it's given me I'm not home free, but I'm certainly a lot more patient and tolerant than I used to be.

Alex Ferrari 30:57
So, so yeah, so it definitely I am with you 110%. Because I'm a very, I was a very impatient person, I still am. And I'm not 100% there either. But meditation in my life has definitely caused me it is it is slowed things down a little bit. As opposed to

Catherine Ann Jones 31:14
something else Salix, I got a phone call half an hour ago, a friend I've known since I was in the drama department, undergraduate. And she lives in New York working actor, she and her husband, she called me from the hospital. She has cancer, and will face surgery. And so I told her, I said, Let the surgeons do the external work, but you have inner work to do. I said, Well, they're putting you under meditate, take deep, long breaths, and visualize something beautiful, or whatever your spiritual orientation is. I'm a firm believer in the power of thought. And that you can't just expect the doctors to do everything the inner work can help you heal. I've seen this enough times that you know, and she responded very positive to that.

Alex Ferrari 32:27
When you say inner work, what do you mean as far as because we all have inner work to do? So can you kind of define inner work for me?

Catherine Ann Jones 32:33
Sure. Well, the deep breathing helps make you still if you're have anxiety, or fear. And then to place your mind on something positive, I would think about my teacher, I would visualize him sitting in the chair, walking, whatever, eating a meal, whatever. And that would end in they put you can put you in a state of bliss. And then you if you go into a surgery in that thing, it can make a lot of difference. I've heard too many examples to confirm this. So So visualize, if you have a mantra, do that arm, wrist, if you're a Christian, the Lord's Prayer, whatever works for you, someone that's Frank Sinatra wants what he believed in. And you know what he said? He said, What ever gets me through the night? So whatever gets you through the night or the dark night, which surgery would be so anyway, I just thought that because it was half an hour, of

Alex Ferrari 33:47
course, not so many. I think that the world has an epidemic and I think we've had it since we, you know, we were put on this planet is dealing with the fear. Fear of you know, originally it was the fear of the Tiger eating you around the corner. And now it's the fear of your boss or the fear of failure or the fear of being you know, not accepted. Cow, do you have any tips on overcoming fear because it's something that every human being on the planet deals with?

Catherine Ann Jones 34:20
I have an anecdote to share. This, you know, life is story to me. so

Alex Ferrari 34:27
sure.

Catherine Ann Jones 34:28
Story. years ago, my first long play was produced in Aspen, Colorado at the conference there. And I met James Salter James halter, who died not long ago is a novelist. I think his most famous book is Downhill Racer, which Robert Redford played in the movie years ago. He said something I'll always remember he said, Most of the things I've worried about never happened. And I have an example of that a week ago. I've taught 1516 years. So that's the lunch. But of course I haven't for over two and a half years because of the pandemic. So they asked me to come back and teach. So suddenly, one day, I began to worry, I thought, you know, because of the pandemic, we may not get enough people to make the workshop. And if we don't, they'll cancel the workshop. And so I worried for one day, then the next day, I got a call. And because I told him, I don't want over 28 people at the most, because I like a lot of one on one. So SLN call me and said, it this is a month before I was to go there. I said the workshop is full, and there's 19 on the waiting list. And I've worried one whole day need what a waste of energy, right?

Alex Ferrari 36:07
It is, it is true. You worrying. I heard this crazy comment. Worrying is like trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum isn't a good one. It's like it doesn't. It's useless. It's useless. You know, I mean, it there's a certain level of worry, like, you know, if you're in a bad situation, you could worry about what's going to happen to you in the next five or 10 minutes.

Catherine Ann Jones 36:33
be concerned. concerned. Yeah. And you can think what can I do? Am I Is there something I can do to make sure this doesn't happen? You know, that's a good concern. Worry something else?

Alex Ferrari 36:48
Yeah, worry is a waste of think. Because if you're worrying about something, you have no control over like that, like your perfect example is like, you had no control over who and how many never happened, and it never happened on top of it. If you I think you should, if you're going to be concerned or worried only can be concerned about things you have control over. It makes no sense to be worried about something else that you have no control over. Now that we're going along with fear. So many people live their lives even based on the opinions of other people, the good opinions of other people, as Wayne Dyer used to say, do you have any advice on how to ignore that kind of thinking and trying to break away from other people's not only other people's opinions, but other people's thinking? I mean, it starts with our parents, you know, we're born this glob, and then all the stuff is thrown on us

Catherine Ann Jones 37:49
the first chapter and wait in heal yourself with writing us. What is your story? What story are you living? And I'd say it starts at home. Usually, so one of the exercises is, are you living your life or the life of parent want to doodle live? or so on? That's one of the things to tell you the truth. I don't know if it's a good positive or negative thing. Maybe it's because I'm an only child. Maybe because I'm an Aries astrologically I've never really cared what other people thought I love my friends. But I just feel strong. And whatever it is, I am you know that I've never been swayed. But I do know I've had friends that are are swayed to such a degree. They never follow their dream. They're so afraid of not having, I can't tell you how many people come to my way of story workshop, here and abroad all over the place. And like they want it to be a writer. And they ended up writing political speeches in Washington DC. They ended up working in advertising. They make good livings, they had families. And now they're 45 5055. Now they want to write the all American novel or whatever, the great American novel. So it's dreams don't die easily. And they can lay dormant for decades.

Alex Ferrari 39:30
I get that all the time in my in my other career talking to filmmakers all the time. I have 65 year old filmmakers like I just retired. I want to make my first feature film. I've always wanted to be a director and you just like, wow, like I was a doctor because my parents pushed me into that and I've been a doctor for the last 40 years. And now I want to I want to follow my passion.

Catherine Ann Jones 39:52
I actually I had a play open in New York and it got good reviews and they gave a party at the party and method doctor, he was a doctor on Park Avenue. That's where the high level big money doctors are in New York. And he said, My father was the doctor, he always wanted me to be a doctor. I'm good at it. But I always wanted to be a playwright. You know, I had a, I haven't, I didn't even have a fraction of what this man earned. But I was happy.

Alex Ferrari 40:30
In that's something that's I think we should talk about really quickly is finding that bliss, as your old friend Joseph Campbell, used to say, oh, follow your following your bliss. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're not super wealthy, super rich financially, or have millions of dollars or anything like that. You can be happy, I think, I don't know where I heard this story. But the story of the fishermen and the businessman that the fisherman was in the Caribbean, somewhere in this new york businessman showed up and like, took them out for a fishing journey. And he's like, Oh, my God, what do you how many fish you catch a day. He's like, Oh, I could do this. He goes, Well, you could do this to build the business up. And then you can get a couple more boats. And you could do this, this, this and this. And he's like, at the end of that he's like, no, he goes, Well, why wouldn't you want to? You know, why wouldn't you want to be bigger, happier, he's like, I catch enough fish to feed my family, then I get to sit down, drink a beer, to hang out in the ocean, and I have time with my family. I'm happy. I don't need any of that stuff. Exactly. And that's it. And I think that's what in generally the American ideal is all about more and more and more and more and more, and I need to be rich, rich, rich, rich, rich, and that the American dream and all that kind of stuff. But how do you how can you like kind of any advice you can give for people to understand like finding happiness first. And oddly enough things follow when you find your, when you find that bliss, things follow? Well,

Catherine Ann Jones 42:06
I guess I was lucky, I never really cared about money or fame. That was never the driving force. I was I have ambition. But my ambition had a different hue. My ambition was I wanted to work with the best people. I got to work right movies for Dolly Parton. Olympia caucus, Jason robarge. Julie era's. That's my I didn't write thrillers or action films, I could have made more money, because that that's where the big money is. But I wouldn't trade it for the world. So I was never drawn. Here. We're talking about people who are overly influenced by other people starting with one's parents. So they may be living a life unconsciously, to satisfy something the parent failed out and wanted them to succeed in. That's one example of this first exercise. I do, I'll be doing next week. And sometimes it's unconscious. And people don't realize that until they write the exercise. And they've heard, oh my god, for 30 years, I've been living my father's dream, not mine.

Alex Ferrari 43:27
That's, that's pretty. That's a pretty profound realization, you know, 40 years later.

Catherine Ann Jones 43:35
And sometimes it gets more complex. Sometimes the unconscious dynamic can be because a parent failed. There's an unconscious pressure, an unspoken unconscious pressure on the child to succeed up to a point but not to succeed beyond what the parent did. Nothing spoken. It's just an unconscious and it's felt, you know, lose their love. The unconscious is saying if I go beyond my father, or whatever, you know, it's it's complex, sometimes.

Alex Ferrari 44:17
Very complex. I mean, I I truly want my my daughters to be much more successful than I was. Without question I want them to and I want them to succeed. I want them to succeed in anything they want to do. But I understand your point of view. I had to deal with that with my with my father as well. He is there's only so much it was just a weird it's a weird conversation. But that's a that's a that's a that's a session for another day. You could do a session on. Well, I mean, parents, look, our parents are our everything for the first 15 years, 18 years of our life there. That's our world. That's our world. And then when we get thrown into the Real World, hopefully we've been prepared and have enough knowledge and an armed enough with things to protect ourselves to deal in the real world because I do the world world's gonna throw things at you that your parents did and many times other times not but, but your parents are I mean, it's being me being a parent now. I see what my, my mother had to go through raising me and I see so many of her bad habits that I might have picked up or my father's bad habits I might have picked up as well as the good ones that I picked up things that they were really good at that I also drew on but the children are sponges, absolute sponges. And you don't have to say a word they just, they sense it, they just, they just absorb it. They absorb everything all the time, from their environment.

Catherine Ann Jones 45:54
they rebelled against it, too. So Alex, could I read just the introduction from the heal yourself?

Alex Ferrari 46:02
Yes, please, please

Catherine Ann Jones 46:03
give yourselves because you said you want to talk about this. And yes, before this might. I start with a quote from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets by JK Rowling. It's all right, it's over. It's just a memory. And then my that's the end of the quote. Our lives may be determined less by past events, then by the way we remember them. I'm gonna say that again. That's kind of the theme of the book. Our lives may be determined less by past events, than by the way we remember them. If we learn how to reframe the pieces of our past and revision, our life story, so that suffering becomes meaningful, we can radically boost our chances of self healing, empowerment, growth, and transformation. Focus journaling, short writing exercises designed to facilitate self healing is an extremely powerful tool to achieve this aim. There were two inspirations to the book and the workshop. One was a Native American parable I read years ago, and it was about an old Native American grandfather speaking to his eight year old grandson. And he says this, he said, there are two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is generous, loving, and kind. The other wolf is greedy, and violent, and mean. And these two wolves are fighting in my heart. Then the little boy looks up and says grandfather, which wolf wins the fight in your heart. And the grandfather answers, the one I feed. So in a way, the word in the workshop or if you do the book are there is an online course is how can we feed the good wolf?

Alex Ferrari 48:27
It's very, very profound. I've heard I've heard of that before as a great, great parable.

Catherine Ann Jones 48:32
The other inspiration. There was a great Jewish psychiatrists, New York, who was a Holocaust survivor. He was in Auschwitz. And he was called Viktor Frankl. And he saw his entire family, what doubt in Auschwitz, his wife, his children, everyone dead. And he had this epiphany. He's he realized he had no control over the external situation, not the only power he had, was how he perceived it. How he focused his mind, and this became the basis of his amazing work as a psychiatrist in New York. When he died, The New York Times gave him a full page obituary. And he wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning. Small book, but a powerful book, but that stayed with me cuz it was very close to the danta the philosophy that influenced me. So part of the work in the workshop is shifting perspective. Like if you've had a trauma, you see life as a victim, sometimes sexual trauma Say. So if you can shift away from the perspective of the victim, your whole life changes. I don't know I'm sort of simplifying it, but that shows up the work we do. So it's deep work, you know it is and work

Alex Ferrari 50:18
for no question and can be scary work because when you start knocking on those doors, those doors will open. Yeah. Sometimes you might not want to see what's behind there, but you're gonna have to deal with it.

Catherine Ann Jones 50:27
The first time I did this workshop at Esalen. I got a letter from I think she was in her mid 30s. Right at the age, she was very successful in Silicon Valley. She had carried a sexual trauma with her for years. When she was 15, she was sexually abused by her brother and her brother's friend. She did the exercises, she never shared what she wrote, she kept to herself. So I didn't think more about it. And then I got the letter and she said, I've been in therapy for 20 years, nothing has worked. After this workshop, I feel I've returned to myself. Now listen to those word, I've returned to myself. Because when you have trauma, there becomes a split between your soul and you know, the outside world, you're cut off. That's why often people who walk around with drama, say soldiers or whatever, they don't feel anything, they're numb inside, they've been split off. So finding a way to return yourself to yourself. That's a mighty work.

Alex Ferrari 51:47
That's, that's pretty powerful. Pretty powerful. Can Can you tell me what the biggest lesson you've learned in your life so far is? Is there one that you can point to?

Catherine Ann Jones 52:02
Well, what comes up is parenting. I, I've had one son, now I have two grandchildren. Nice. But I think I had my son when I was 21. So I was very young, and I had been an only child. So I didn't have a lot of experience with babies or children. And I love being a parent. It taught me as much as anything else in my life. But if I had to do it over again, I think sometimes I rushed in too quickly to try and fix things for my son. You know, I consider this a problem. I'd say what you could do, you know, I tried to have the answers. If I had to do it again, I think I learned it's better to just listen and just be there for someone going through something

Alex Ferrari 53:02
instead of trying to fix it. Yeah. Good. That's a great answer. what came to mind anyway? How do you think people can connect more with God in today's world? Well, you're talking to an agnostic First of all, but what the universal energy universal energy, the absolute pure consciousness, force, death force? Absolutely right. The force be with you. Yes.

Catherine Ann Jones 53:31
I don't think it's a white man with a beard.

Alex Ferrari 53:34
I agree with you. 100%. On that,

Catherine Ann Jones 53:36
I just wanted to clarify, sure. Um, well, I just finished a new book. And I found this quote, it's an unknown source. I think it's, I can't remember some unknown source. And it says, I went in search of God. And I found myself. I went to India in search of God or the truth. And I found myself and not the ego self, again, that capital S I think I shared with you when I finish this, this book is self with writing. And I was just about to send it off to the publisher. I did a read through and I kept looking at the title page. Because you know, heal yourself with writing yourself is one word, usually. And I kept looking, I knew something was missing, but I didn't know what and then it hit me. And all I did was separate the word so it's heal your self capital S self with writing and then I knew the book was done. I compare it to a painter has to learn not to over paint the canvas he has to instinct or intuition. Dibley know when to stop and lay the brush down. And that kind of changed things for me.

Alex Ferrari 55:08
Why do you think we're here? It's a general statement to find that self, not the ego.

Catherine Ann Jones 55:18
In other words, you, I think we're here for the growth of the soul, I could answer it like that. I think the purpose of each life is for the soul to grow. And the soul can be rather ruthless. Some people may grow when terrible things happen in their life, cancer, Death of friends, whatever. Or can be positive things. But I think we're here for that for the evolution of the soul.

Alex Ferrari 55:52
And where can people find out more about you? And the work do you do in the books that you've written?

Catherine Ann Jones 55:59
My website, I guess, way of story.com. And there, my online courses are there on the home page, I do writing consultant. I've done psychic readings for 14 years, mostly now. And I do a blog once a month. And some interviews, maybe we'll put the center of the thing so we have story.com, and they can email me through that

Alex Ferrari 56:34
to Gavin, thank you so much for doing this. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and, and doing this deep dive into into soul work, if you will. And and thank you so much for all the work you've done over the course of your life to help people and with your books and plays and stories and, and teachings and everything. So I do appreciate you and thank you so much.

Catherine Ann Jones 56:57
Thank you

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BPS 134: Psychology for Screenwriters with William Indick

October 4, 2023August 18, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I’m taking a journey down the rabbit hole of screenwriting psychoanalysis with Professor William Indick, who is a psychology professor at William Paterson University in New Jersey, professor of psychology executive chair of faculty at Dowling College, and author of Psychology for Screenwriters.

We take a nerdy dig into the world of psychology and how it affects writers, screenwriters, and characters. With some expert contextualization, William psychoanalyzes some of our favorite films and characters while also breaking down character archetypes and themes he has studied.

How did it all start, you ask?

Well, in 2003 he made the decision to incorporate more culturally relevant theories of personality instead of antiquated theories in his psychology classes by sorting references from famous films. Based on his students growing interested and fascination, William researched to find psychology textbooks about films, but none existed. So he wrote one instead.

The book was published by Michael Wiese productions in 2004. Psychology For Screenwriters supports that screenwriters must understand human behavior to make their stories come alive. This book clearly describes theories of personality and psychoanalysis with simple guidelines, thought-provoking exercises, vivid film images, and hundreds of examples from classic movies.

Basically, the book takes general psychology theories and applications and adapts them into helpful tools for screenwriters.

He delves into various genre archetypal characters and themes that are repetitive in screenplays in the second edition of the book which will be out soon.

Just this summer, William published his sixth book, Media Environments and Mental Disorder: The Psychology of Information Immersion. It deals a lot with narcissism, and the notion that all media is a mirror, and how we understand ourselves at a time when we’re constantly being reflected in a million ways. The information environments that modern society requires us to master and engage in are based on literacy and digital communication. Mediated information not only passes through our brains, it alters and rewires them. Since our environment, to a large extent, is shaped by the way we perceive, understand, and communicate information, we can even think of mental disorders as symptoms of maladaptation to our media environments.

This book uses this “media ecology” model to explore the effects of media on mental disorders. It traces the development of media from the most basic forms–the sights and sounds expressed by the human body–to the most technologically complex media created to date, showing how each medium of communication relates to specific mental disorders such as anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, and autism. As the digital age proceeds to envelop us in an environment of infinite and instantly accessible information, it’s crucial to our own mental health to understand how the various forms of media influence and shape our minds and behaviors.

My conversation with William was one of those discussions that you come out of, more informed than you went in.

We had a blast. Enjoy my very informative conversation with William Indick.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:11
I'd like to welcome the show Bill Indick. Man, how you doing Bill?

Williams Indick 0:14
Good, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'm good, my friend. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, I'm excited to dive into the world of psychology and how it affects writers and screenwriters and characters and cycle analyzing some of our favorite films and characters, which I I do on the show often as a, as a non professional, without a PhD, as I'm sure you've run into too much. But before before we get started, what made you decide to write a book about psychology for screenwriters.

Williams Indick 0:47
Um, so it's this is going back to 2003, so almost 20 years ago, and I was just starting out as a psychology professor, and I was teaching classes like abnormal psychology and theories of personality where you have to, you know, get into the nuts and bolts of psychological theory, Freud, Erickson, young, all those guys. And I was finding it hard to sort of get these very old theories to be relevant to my students. And I, you know, my idea was, okay, well, let me take something that's I find fascinating and interesting, and some and use it as an example to apply it to. So I started doing little short film analyses in class as examples of these classic personality theories. And it really worked very well. So I said, Oh, you know, what, I should get a textbook on like, how to do you know, basically a psychology film book, but none existed, there was really none about specifically applying psychoanalysis to film analysis. So I wrote the book. And one of the people that I shopped the book around to was Michael Reese, and Michael Reese productions. And he said, this is great idea. But we write books for filmmakers, we write books for screenwriters, and they wanted not an academic text for more sort of a practical guide. So I said, Okay, take the same theories, the same applications and just turn them into something that would be helpful for screenwriters. So instead of, you know, saying, Okay, as you analyze a film, think about this, saying, as you write a film, think about this in more sort of analytical ways.

Alex Ferrari 2:22
So can you, like do a cycle analysis on a genre? I like it, because I know you wrote another book about, you know, the psychology of westerns and things. Can you break down like general overall psychologies of specific genres? Are there like key things that are in most of films in certain genres?

Williams Indick 2:40
Absolutely. And that's one of so psychology for screenwriters is going into a second edition, and I had to add three chapters. And basically those three chapters are going to be based on these books I wrote about psychoanalysis, for specific film genres. So in any genre, you're going to have basic character types, which in psychology will typically call archetypes after Carl Jung's theory. So in the western, you have this sort of cast of characters that basically reappear in every film, you have, you know, the cowboy hero, who's oftentimes an anti hero, you have a villain character who usually, quote unquote, a dude. The word dude refers to Easterner who was out west, I don't know how it became just a sort of general term for person. But that's so the villain is usually a dude from the east or a banker or a railroad person or evil cattle Baron, somebody who wants to own the land rather than live in it in a more sort of wholesome or holistic with respects to land. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you have the quote unquote, horror with a heart of gold character, and then the nice sort of virginal schoolmarm character, and all those characters exist as archetypes. Within this specific mythology that we call the West, and the archetypes change, they grow up and they, you know, become darker usually, but they don't really change the same basic motivation, which is redemption, usually for the, for the hero, that stays the same. And you could do the same thing with horror movies and psycho psychological science fiction, musicals, comedies, every genre exists because there are these archetypal characters and archetypal themes that just repeat themselves over and over again. So yes, you can certainly do a psychoanalysis of genre and I've been doing it and do it again.

Alex Ferrari 4:31
So okay, so let's break down, let's say, the action genre, which is probably one of the most popular genres, sci fi, sci fi and action are both very popular, what are you know, actually a very broad genre. But generally speaking, in your, from your point of view, what are some of the kind of like, archetypes that are constantly in their cycle analyzing that genre?

Williams Indick 4:53
So I would say if we're talking about American films, and that's really I don't know about you, but certainly I'm not particularly comfortable talking about any other rights other than American films. But um, the western was incredibly influential, and really dominated the whole film market for that whole period going from the sort of mid 40s to the early 60s. So what we call the action genre is really just something that evolved out of the Western genre, people saying, hey, maybe we can make an exciting film with guns and chases, and all that exciting stuff happening, but not set in the West. So people started coming up with different types of action movies. But it really basically is the same as the western genre. So you have the same basic kind of hero, this sort of slightly dark character with a good heart who finds it hard to fit in, in his environment, because of his own personal code of honor, that doesn't necessarily mix with the hypocrisy of modern day. And you basically, you take this Western character, and you put them in the city, and you give them a badge, and, you know, a three piece suit. And all of a sudden, he's this the sort of archetypical cop hero, you have the buddy cop movie, that's basically just an extension of the Western genre. And I would say, in this in the 60s and 70s, and 80s, when American culture was getting kind of sick of the Western, we saw a lot more action movies based on this cop hero. archetype, who is essentially the western hero, then starting in the 70s, but really getting a lot of traction in the 80s began to see Action. Action movies based more on classical superheroes, from sort of ancient myth, like people that we call superheroes, people who aren't just regular men, you know, with who are very quick with a gun, but people who are who actually have superpowers, like gods, so Superman, Batman, Spider Man, and that is, you know, a rather different type of story. And that calls upon these ancient patterns of the hero that go all the way back 1000s and 1000s of years, to the ancient Greeks in the ancient Romans, the ancient day ends and Christians, the classical hero, so to understand that character, we really have to kind of study from Joseph Campbell's some Carl young, and move away from the very specific American action hero that basically just an offshoot of the Western hero, the cowboy,

Alex Ferrari 7:30
so the Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you Next is like, Well, obviously, the the dominant genre in popular movies is superhero. I mean, yeah, it is. It's taken over all other genres. And do you believe in your, in your opinion, do you think what Spielberg said is true? Where we're going to, we're going to get tired of superhero movies, eventually, in the next 15 years, like, we're just going to be like, it's over. Let's move on to something else, just like the western was like the western. But you know, sci fi has always been sci fi action has always been action like there's I don't, but this specific genre of superhero, do you think that that's going to eventually happen?

Williams Indick 8:10
Yeah, you reach a point with any medium point of saturation, where people will have gift had enough and they need something else. That doesn't necessarily mean that the archetypes change. Again, people got sick of westerns in the 1960s, when nine out of 10 TV shows were westerns, and this was something like six out of 10 feature films released every week was a western people got sick of it. And it wasn't as relevant in a time when people were less gung ho about being American in the 60s. So what happened, two things happened, the genre itself became darker and more realistic in an attempt to kind of better reflect the American spirit. And that really kind of killed the western for a while. But the other thing that happened was, the setting changed. And we took the same basic characters and just put them in a different setting. So I would say probably somebody, something similar is going to happen with superheroes, where we're seeing it already, we're seeing the characters get darker and darker and darker. And at one point, it reaches a point where a character gets so dark that nobody wants to identify with that character anymore. It's too dark, like some of the Western characters we saw in the late 60s and early 70s. So yeah, we'll reach that point of saturation, where people just are sick of it. And also we'll reach the point of where the character itself the main character gets too dark, and it's going to have to change. What will it become after that? Well, you never really know. But it's essentially it's the same basic archetype, whether he's in a war movie, or Western or action movie or a superhero movie, basically the same characters with different settings. It take George Lucas, you know, he came around at a time when the western was really dead. And he said, Well, what if I just take a Western and set it in outer space, and instead of lightsaber it's just like samurai swords? Yama. So samurai swords. lightsabers, and he took a state your basic Western plot, mixed a few things in it and came up with Star Wars, which captured everybody's imagination, you know, for decades and decades and decades. And not many people complained, oh, this is just a Western setting Outer Space doesn't matter.

Alex Ferrari 10:16
Right. And I mean, let me he picked obviously he picked he took Seven Samurai and, and hidden fortress specifically, and which are basically, Western semi samurai. Samurai films are westerns, and magnificent, Magnificent Seven and all that stuff. And it's so funny because the this the the success of the latest incarnation of star which was the Mandalorian on the streaming service. It is as Western as you get. I mean, it is yeah, it goes back to the core roots of Star Wars, which was a Western hardcore Western, but in space. And I mean, it's actually I think Mandalorians even more Western than the original Star Wars is,

Williams Indick 10:59
it's a straight up Western, when you see it, you have this character who is the quintessential cowboy hero, he sort of comes in the wilderness, he's in this frontier territory, where everything's kind of dark and scary, yet he has his own personal code of honor. He has this sort of path towards redemption. It's, it's the most traditional Western I've seen in a very long time, and only the setting is different.

Alex Ferrari 11:23
Exactly. And then the whole lone wolf and cub story with him and baby Yoda is also it's just a complete callback to Japanese westerns.

Williams Indick 11:32
Yeah, and the Yoda, the baby Yoda. We've seen that before in westerns, there was specifically there was a film called three godfathers of classic Western that was remade a bunch of times. And probably the classic version was directed by john Ford, with john wayne in it. But the basic premise is you have these three cowboy outlaws, and they're on the run. And they run into a, what he called a wagon train that's been attacked by Indians. And the only survivor is a mother and her newborn baby and the mother died. So now they have to take care of this baby. And yeah, so you have these three really tough guys, like Three Men and a Baby.

Alex Ferrari 12:11
Are you ready? Yeah, you read my mind. I was like a three minute baby.

Williams Indick 12:14
And, but their whole struggle is to you know, deliver this baby to New Jerusalem to this town and a half to fight the wilderness fight Indians, you know, and go through all that and that so uh, yeah, baby Yoda is directly from that. But I mean, when I was watching the Mandalorian, I was thinking, I should probably write something about this show. So not only it's a very traditional Western, but every episode is based on kind of a classic Western movie. Like, like three godfathers or the searchers. You know, it's been a while since I've seen it, but but I was very, very much impressed by Jon Favreau, who's he did a lot of the writing and all the directing, saying, like, this guy knows his westerns, and he's really applying it in a great way. And the wonderful thing about taking a genre like the western, which has very established archetypes, and plots and characters, and just changing the setting is that you don't have to make the characters as dark as they would normally be. Because while people are sick of the sort of a cowboy hero in the white hat in the white horse, perfect character who's so good that he's unbelievably good. People did get sick of that in the 50s, and 60s. But when George Lucas put them in outer space, we have you know, Luke Skywalker, who's again, this classic, very pure white hat, white costume character. Meaning if so, if you change the setting, you can go back to the original home template of the genre. So that's kind of a useful thing to know.

Alex Ferrari 13:46
And it really when you set the whole white hat character in the superhero superhero genre, arguably is the the godfather of all superheroes, which is Superman is very difficult to write for, because he is that white hat character. And at a certain time in American history and world history. That was acceptable in the 70s when Christopher Reeve showed up, it was fine. You wanted that kind of, you know, apple pie kind of character. But as time has gone on, he seems so unrealistic that they had to, like try to darken them up. I'm like, but that's not the character you can't. That's why Batman has been he just days because he's, he's such a realistic character. I mean, to a certain extent, obviously, but much more realistically, dark character. He's a realistically dark character, and he's very vulnerable. And all this stuff. When you're writing for Superman, you're writing for a god. And that was the problem with ancient Greeks. You know, in the myths of ancient Greece, like, well, they had to give them human fair frailties, to be able to write a story about him because if they're just, there's no power in there's no power that can stop them, then why are we watching this? There's no conflict.

Williams Indick 14:53
Yeah, well, when you have a character who's super powerful, the only person who can defeat them is themselves. Eventually, eventually, you have to come to a point of either such darkness when the character is destroying himself, or you have to change the setting, or it changed things around a bit. But yeah, we see. So we see, the same thing with superheroes that we did with the Western characters is at a certain point, we reach point of saturation. So two things happen is one is people start messing around with the setting. And the other thing is people start making the characters themselves get darker and darker, so that they're more interesting and more identifiable. But then you get, you get to a certain point where the character is too dark, and something has to flip, there's a reversal. So like, just to sort of wrap up what we've been talking about with westerns and superheroes, you have the western, the western gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then to the at the point of saturation, it turns into the anti Western turns into a very dark scenario that people are interested in seeing. At the bottom point of it is people are going to the movies to be entertained, not to be edified, or not to be lectured at, and not to have a dark, dismal time with a character who's just completely reprehensible. So, so what happened was, you had a flip reversal, you took the exact same genre, you just change the setting, like Star Wars, or Superman, and now you have all of a sudden, you can have this character who's totally pure and perfect again, because people don't recognize it as the western. But then over time, again, saturation gets in characters get darker and darker and darker. And then there's going to be a flip or reversal, where all of a sudden people like oh, like we have a brand new movie genre, but it's not. It's just,

Alex Ferrari 16:39
it's just, it's all fun. We've been recycled, we've been recycled, the same stuff since the beginning.

Williams Indick 16:47
Well, one question that's relevant is, well, why can't anybody come up with something that's completely original? Why do we always have to recycle the same characters, the same basic plots, the same basic scenarios? And the answer is, life isn't as complicated as you think it is. And in terms of identifiable struggles that characters can have, there's not that many, you know, you have the sort of classic struggle for redemption, the classic struggle for revenge, those are the two classic themes in westerns that we see in action movies, as well. You have love the search for love, the search for connection, the search for community, the search for some type of meaning, meaningful connection with others, beyond and then there's the fight against evil, or whether evil is embodied by you know, enemies, or by, you know, a wilderness or by some type of danger. Those are the classic themes, and you can't really get away from them, it's hard to come up with an idea for a movie that's going to be dramatic and have conflict and keep people's interest, if you don't touch upon one of those key themes.

Alex Ferrari 17:51
Yeah, in a lot of young writers, a writer starting out, they always like, Well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go to any of them, I'm going to come up with something new. I'm like, Listen, you've got to build a house. And there are there's basically about eight or 10 blueprints, you can use. And within those blueprints, you could go crazy. I mean, obviously, look at all the beautiful buildings have been created throughout the world. But at the core, the structure still needs a floor, still needs walls, still needs doors still needs windows in one way, shape, or form, to make this work. And within that scope, within that structure, you could do whatever you want. And that's why I think a lot of young writers fail because they just go off not thinking that they're not being original.

Williams Indick 18:32
And it's and the house is a good metaphor, because the most important thing a house must have is a strong foundation, which nobody sees, you don't see the foundation. So when people think, Oh, you know, I'm going to do something completely original. They're possibly going into the process thinking I don't need a foundation. But we all need a foundation can't see it doesn't make it any less important. In fact, it makes it more important. And that's what the psychoanalysis and psychology gives you. Because if psychology is a study of human behavior, and if film essentially is just human behavior projected onto screen, well, what's underlying all of that behavior? What are people's motivations? What are their both their conscious and their unconscious motivations? There's nothing more interesting than a character who thinks he's doing one thing, but it's actually doing something else and then has to realize at a certain point through an epiphany or revelation, you know, why they're doing what they're doing? Um, that's part of the foundation of any character is what is the secret foundation to this characters issues? And how can it be revealed in a way that doesn't reveal the foundation? Meaning How can I make people understand what this character is going through and what their real inner struggle is by providing symbols and metaphors through some type of outward plot or since it's an external conflict. So the idea is, there's internal conflict. That's what the character is dealing with. That's what we as the viewers identify with, but it all because it's film, it all has to be visualized. It has to be externalized. And objectified in a way that everybody can get, even though they're not psychologists and they're not necessarily doing film analysis.

Alex Ferrari 20:18
So let's let's let's do an experiment here. Can we cycle analyze? One of the more famous heroes of all time, Indiana Jones. Let's Let's psychoanalyze Indiana Jones because because then yeah, if you mean everyone listening, this has if they haven't seen Indiana Jones out there, you got some homework. You've got some homework to do, but he's one of the most, at least if I like the third one. Come on. The third one's pretty good. Yeah. Sean Connery. Yeah, yeah, that's the first three, first three, the fourth one who knows what happened there? But anyway, um, now we can search for more money. And they're doing an apparently that's they're just continuing. Because I think Harrison I think he just broke a hip or something. doing his ad. Now he's doing the next one. But, you know,

Williams Indick 21:01
I hope they're casting him as the mentor character and not the hero, because that's got to be the hero.

Alex Ferrari 21:06
I mean, he's just I mean, at a certain point, I mean, unless you're, unless you're a character like Clint Eastwood and Unforgiven, then you can be the old ie the old hero, but it's different. Yeah. Much, much, much, much, much different. Sorry. So talking about Indiana Jones. What How would you psychoanalyze him? And and can you pinpoint why so many people love that character? It's an adoring character in a time when there's a lot of characters, and there was a lot of copycat, you know, archeology, you know, adventure films made after Indiana Jones. But for whatever reason, and you could say, it's Harrison. And you can say it's the writing and the directing. But for you as on a character cycle analyst cycle, cycle analysts way, what do you think?

Williams Indick 21:51
I think it's the producer, I think it was George Lucas, who has this sort of wonderful eye for archetypes. And he and he saw, he got off and he read the comic book, or however, he saw that character and said, Oh, okay, I see this character, he's a cowboy. He's your classic cowboy hero, but he's in a different setting. And, you know, I, I'm sure George Lucas recognized and said, Oh, I did that with Star Wars. And it worked out really, really well. I took it took the classic Western hero, change the setting, change the scenario a bit. And everybody immediately identifies with his character who's very American, who's very sort of action oriented at but but also has a very basic sense of honor. And also is very American in the way he does things, which is he does things primarily by himself, and does not ask permission or forgiveness, he just does whatever he thinks he should do, tip it oftentimes in a very, very violent way. So we as Americans can identify with that character. So he is that classic hero, and even even dresses, like a cowboy does, with his hat and everything. But there's also, um, you know, so George Lucas took the Western and put it in outer space for Star Wars. For Indiana Jones, he took the western, and he kind of took these superhero character characteristics and put them in with him. So first of all, you have this guy who's super good looking, and, you know, adventure hero, who can do all this stuff. But he's also this brilliant archaeologist, which is, you know, rather unlikely even in a sort of fancy fantasy scenario, can he does seem to have the sort of miraculous powers that Western heroes don't have. So he he is a little bit more of the classic hero, and he's kind of also an Arthurian hero, he's a knight errant, going off on these journeys, to find things like the Holy Grail.

Alex Ferrari 23:45
I was about to say, literally,

Williams Indick 23:47
he's very much the personal hero, meaning he's impure character, or at least pure in his intentions and his motivations. And he's, he's on a good quest. He's going out there to do something good to redeem himself, but but in doing so he redeems the world. Um, yeah, so an interesting sort of amalgamation of these classic heroes you have, you know, the western hero in his costume and his actions and his general kind of approach. And then you have the sort of very classical superhero type of person who has who has all of these superpowers. And then you also have the Arthurian Knight who's who's out on a quest. And he's in he's either rescuing a maiden or he's finding a relic that can save the world or he's defeating some evil enemy like the Nazis. Typically, he's doing all three at once.

Alex Ferrari 24:40
Yeah, and I, I always found that if we're just analyzing just the three Indiana Jones films, the first one and the third one were quests, were the second one was not a quest. It was it was more of he fell upon this scenario, and he's like, I'm gonna go save these kids and I gotta stop what's going on. It wasn't a quest. And I always find in my indie stories, I like a quest, because that's what he's at best at. Is that a fair a fair statement?

Williams Indick 25:09
Yeah, oh, well, he got back to Joseph Campbell. And he would say, you know, there are, there are lots of ways in which the hero finds himself in an adventure. And sometimes it is a quest. And Harold comes and says, look, the Nazis are gonna get this Holy Ark, and we have to get it before them, or something like that, or the Nazis are gonna get the Holy Grail. So that's the very traditional beginning. But then there's also a very sort of classic type of tale, where you have the hero and the hero sort of doing his own thing. And then maybe something like a deer or something, you know, an apparition comes and he sort of follows it into the wilderness. And it's twists and turns, and all of a sudden, he turns around, and he's in the realm of adventure. He's like, how did I get lined up here, but now all of a sudden, here I am. And there's people asking me to help them and they're in desperate need. So it becomes a quest. It wasn't looking for it wasn't directly sort of addressed by a herald character saying you need to do this. But he just sort of finds himself as Joseph Campbell would say, in full career of an adventure. And that's very much, you know, Indiana Jones number two. And I love the beginning part, because it's very exciting. Oh, I love it. And it's a wonderful, Steven Spielberg in sequence of action, action, action, action, but it's also fulfilling that part of the story, meaning the hero gets lost through no fault of his own. And then when he sort of stands up and says, Where am I? Well, you're in intervention. You know, you've got you've got he's got the maiden, you've got the quest, and you've got the villains, and it's all there for you just, you know, just have at it.

Alex Ferrari 26:46
Exactly. Now, so what is someone like Sigmund Freud, have to teach us about character and story?

Williams Indick 26:56
I think probably the most useful stuff we get from Freud, is this notion that we don't understand ourselves, we think we do. But we really don't. And, and when we get frustrated in our lives, it's because we're doing what we think we should be doing. And we have the, what we think is the proper motivation, yet, things aren't turning out the way we want to, and we're not happy the way we think we should be. And Freud said, well, you have to look much deeper into yourself. And you have to look at yourself, like a problem like a like an algebra problem. It's your circumstances. Well, what's going on? Why am I doing these things? And not finding happiness? And what what, why don't I seem to understand myself. And Freud gave us all these tools to try to understand ourselves. So so for example, like defense mechanisms. defense mechanisms are things that we do constantly, all the time to defend our egos in the face of either negative information about ourselves or just negative information in general. And we're constantly defending ourselves from this negative information. But in order for the defense to be effective, we have to be completely unaware of what we're doing. So say a defense mechanism like denial, when there's an obvious problem, but you're not aware of it, because you're in denial. That's something that translates to film very, very well, where you can have a character and we, the watchers, we the viewers are looking at this character and saying, dude, this is there's something horrible that's about to happen, you have to be aware of that. And it's pretty obvious to us, why aren't you seeing it? And it's because they're in denial. And we understand that might not put it in Freudian terms, but we understand Oh, something horrible is gonna happen, and his character is totally unprepared for it. And it's like a train wreck about that happened, and we're watching it, we can't unlock it. Because we've all been in that situation before. And we've all kind of had that wishes. Oh, I wish there was somebody watching me who could Hey, you know, look, look what's gonna happen, you need to prepare yourself. You know? So things like denial and repression and some of the more fancy defense mechanisms like reaction formation are very very very interesting when you put them into characters because the viewer can see where they're going wrong. And but at the same time, they're powerless to help that character kind of like in the movie theater, sometimes we say Hey, watch out. We want to warn them that's an effectual they have to learn for themselves, which is another reason why we identify with these characters is they have to figure out their own weaknesses and then deal with it on their own just like us.

Alex Ferrari 29:35
Now the, you know, with characters they many characters are most characters work on a conscious level, but we as humans, work on a very subconscious level. There's things that motivate and drive us that we honestly in many ways don't even understand why we do things other than when you do that deep dive and psychoanalyst, psycho, you psychoanalyze yourself or You get therapy or you work it out, or it comes out in one way, shape or form through somebody else or another character in your life. Let's say he points it out to you like, Don't you understand why you're pushing everybody away? Because you were abandoned as a child? or something along those lines? Yeah. But to the cut. So can you talk a little bit about the power of using subconscious motivations within character in a story?

Williams Indick 30:23
Sure. Um, so again, it, there's nothing more powerful than seeing a character who's blind to himself. And he, he has to desperately become self aware, in order to save his life. We're in order, you know, to save someone else's life or in order to complete this quest. And again, we identified with that character could we're always in that same situation. So we, it gives us the ability as a viewer, it gives us a certain amount of power, right? Because usually, we're completely blind to our own issues. But when we have somebody else's issues right there on the screen for us to see, we're all you know, we don't know we're doing it. But we're all psychoanalyzing that character. That's why psychoanalysis and film kind of goes along really well together. Because the viewer by default becomes a psychoanalyst, as they're watching this character, they're privy to information that that character doesn't have. Because only we can see that character, objectively, nobody can see themselves objectively. So take, for example, a film that I use as examples of like, Freudian defense mechanisms is a American Beauty, because it's literally they hit everyone. But there's just one scene which is very, very powerful. There's a lot of powerful scenes in that movie. And the power all comes from this revelation of having a character that doesn't know himself. So when he does or says something that makes him momentarily aware of his own issues. It's like a huge revelation. And we if the viewers are like, oh, wow, that's pretty, pretty cool and pretty deep. So there's this one scene. So you know, the film is one scene where he's having a bit of an argument with his daughter and his daughter calls him out on being a perv on perving on her teenage friend, and he says, Jan, you better watch out, you're gonna turn into a bitch, just like your mother. And it just comes out of his mouth. And his daughter is mortified. And he's mortified. He can't believe he said that to his daughter. And he realized how much he hates his wife. And he didn't really I don't think he realized that up until the moment where he said those words. Plus at the same time, he realizes my hatred for my wife, and my hatred for myself, to certain extent for being with with this person that I hate and hates me. It's rubbing off on my daughter. So the worst thing we're doing in this relationship is we're really hurting her. So he has that revelation. And it's all done in this little bit of dialogue. And I say it's mostly done through the just the expression on Kevin Spacey his face after he says that he realized, Oh, my God, I hurt. It's one person who I don't want to hurt. What am I doing? Where am I going? When I you know? And so yes, that's a great example of a defense mech. In this case, the defense mechanism is displacement when you're angry at one person, but you shout at somebody else, a safe outlet. We all do that all the time. But in film, it's so much more powerful because it's it's it's all there for us to see. You know, we set up we're all very aware of it, even if we're not talking about terms like displacement and defense mechanism. We know Oh, he's really angry at his wife. But he took it out and daughter because she touched a nerve by calling him a perv. Because he is a perv. Yeah, so yeah. That's where I think psychology comes in very, very useful for the viewer. But even more useful for the screenwriter, because the screenwriter is the one who has to be very, very explicitly aware of what's going on for their characters. And how these little this little bit of information can come out bit by bit in ways that seem both real to the viewer, and also entertaining and, you know, keeping them engaged.

Alex Ferrari 34:05
Now, what is dream work?

Williams Indick 34:08
The dream work is just a Freud's term for the process of analyzing dreams. And he had, he created a very specific model for doing it. But it's really relatively simple as you can, if you could break it down to two ideas. You have the dream itself that we experienced while we're sleeping. So dream work isn't really for, like daydreams. Those types of fantasies, which are semi conscious, and can be explored just in a sort of regular psychoanalytic way. Because dreams, true dreams are completely unconscious, and they happen while we were asleep. And by the way, 99% of our dreams are never analyzed because we never have any conscious awareness of them. So Freud believed that dreams were important. It was our unconscious minds way of dealing with things IDs and issues that we don't deal with during our waking state. And the two basic principles are that there's the manifest content of the dream, manifest, meaning the clear that what we actually see, which typically doesn't make a lot of sense, or dreams tend to be very illogical. And then there is the latent content. latent means hidden or disguised, meaning the true message of the dream, the true sort of idea that the unconscious is trying to deal with or expressed to ourselves. And, and by analyzing the manifest content by taking the dream as we experienced it, and finding associations for each symbol in the dream, we can uncover the hidden meaning, and then hopefully apply that to our lives in some kind of meaningful way.

Alex Ferrari 35:48
Now, what is normative conflict?

Williams Indick 35:52
Okay, so you're jumping to a different theory, but um, so we have to take one step back to Freud. So Freud believed that dreams, express some type of neurotic conflict, neurotic conflict. So neurotic coming from neuro or the brain, what he means is sort of internal conflict. So there's something we want to do, let's say for Kevin Spacey and American Beauty. what he wants to do is he wants to nail his daughter's teenage friend, which knows, is completely inappropriate, and which she probably doesn't even completely register with himself. It's sort of unconscious desire, that nevertheless is motivating him at every stage in the movie. He's, that seems to be his primary motivation is to become more attractive to this teenage girl so he can seduce her. So this is neurotic conflict, meaning there's one side of him that knows this is wrong, and knows that he's a bad person and a bad father for wanting to do it. Yet there's this other equally strong side of him, call it the end call it the libido that desperately wants this and cannot give it up. It's a fantasy that he knows who's wrong, but it persists because it's has this unconscious power. So so that's what we might say is going on in terms of neurotic conflict. What is normative conflict? Well, Erik Erikson studied really with honor Freud, Freud's daughter. And he wrote when he when Erik Erikson moved to America, from Vienna, in the 40s, he realized that most people didn't really and most people in America didn't understand Freud, that almost everything was lost in translation. And one of the main reasons things were lost in translation why people didn't understand Freud was because it was such a sexual theory. Everything was sexualized. So and in Freudian theory, there is no neurotic conflict without some type of libido without some type of sexual drive, because that's in Freudian theory. That's where all energy comes from. It comes from this basic life urge this libido this need to reproduce, and therefore this need to have sex. Erikson Erickson said, well, all that stuff is true for it in theory, but if people in America can't talk about sex, this is like 1950s. If Americans can't talk about sex, how are they going to understand the theory, they're just going to reject the theory outright, which is what people were doing. But he said, you know, what, you can take the same basic issues that Freud was talking about, and you can unsexual eyes, and you can talk about them in less sexual ways. So he said, you can take neurotic conflict, this internal conflict, and instead of saying, Oh, this is about libido versus guilt, or ID versus super ego, and he's very technical ways, you could say, everybody is always struggling, everybody is conflicted. Why? Well, we want to be normal people and lead normal lives. And we want to be true to ourselves. Yet at the same time, everybody in our environment is putting these demands on us. Our parents want us to be one thing, and our teachers want us to be another thing. And our siblings Expect us of us and our wives and girlfriends and boyfriends, and everybody expects something from us. And those expectations mean that we have to become the person that they want us to become. But we also want to stay true to ourselves. And that's a true conflict, and there's nothing necessarily sexual about it. So that's what we mean by normative conflict. It's neurotic conflict, same exact thing, but not in sexual terms. And it is also more about self identity. How do I understand myself? How do I define myself, while at the same time, satisfying other people's expectations for me?

Alex Ferrari 39:29
Now, I'm not sure if we've covered this or not, but what are some of the archetypes for plot according to a guardian?

Williams Indick 39:36
Okay, well, it'd be really be more to have, according to me, because color you'll never really wrote about movies or anything. Sure. And he wrote about archetypes, but not necessarily archetypes of plot. So but it's the same idea meaning if you have a set of character traits, for, for a certain type of character, and we call the amalgamation of those character, those characteristics, an archetype then we can Do the same thing for a theme meaning basic, the basic characteristics of a theme, become an archetypal theme or a classic theme. And so if we take that and apply that to movies, I mean that if you have a character who audience needs to follow and identify with and be engaged with for 90 to 120 minutes, possibly longer nowadays, we have, you know, a television characters that have, you know, 1000 hours, you know, how are we going to? How are we going to stick with that character? And it's all about motivation. It's all about what is motivating this character? What is holding? And what is holding them back? What's their conflict, what's your struggle. And if we think about it that way, there's only a handful of archetypical plots. There's the revenge plot. And we and we all can identify with that. There's the redemption plot of the character did some bad things in the past, or has led a life which was not completely pure, but now they have a chance to redeem themselves by doing something good and pure for others. There's the love plot of simply character, a character who's in love, but there's some type of obstacle that they have to overcome in order to win the person that they adore. There's the classic quest motivation. You know, so so there's, you know, if you think about it, there's only maybe a half a dozen different plots, different types of motivations that work and can can extend interest in a character for more than, you know, 100 minutes yourself. So that's what we mean by the archetypical plot. And it really ties in with the archetype of the character meaning, an archetypal character is going to have an archetypal theme or not archetypal plot that's driving them along. The two aren't are inseparable. Now,

Alex Ferrari 41:48
I love this. I saw this in your book, I just had to ask you about it. What are some archetypes in the age of narcissism? Because I got we are in the age of Narcissus.

Williams Indick 41:59
Yeah, well, I mean, so in in psychoanalysis, we have the metaphor of the mirror. Now, you know, the idea of looking at oneself. And we, and oftentimes we get confused, because we think we're looking through a window, we think we're looking at other people, but we're looking at a mirror, we're looking at ourselves. And I would say that sort of confusion, which is narcissism. So what was narcissist is a mistake while he looked at a reflection of himself, and became hypnotized or entranced by that image of himself. But he had no idea that he was looking at himself, he thought he was looking at this beautiful young man. And the thing that he was unaware of the reason why this image was so hypnotizing was because it was him. But in a way, it wasn't him. And that's what was hypnotic about it. And we all find ourselves in that situation, right now, with modern media, we all carry around these things, these phones, and you look at it, when it's not on, you're like, Oh, it's just a mirror. We turn it on, but when we turn it on, that's when we lose the accuracy of what it really is. Because we think we're looking at the outside world, we think we're looking at other people's webpages and other people's comments and other people's opinions. But it's all in reflection of who we are. I don't want to get too far off the point. But the the one basic question everybody has is, well, if all of this media is helping us to be informed, helping us to learn about what's going on in the world, and what's going on with other people. Why is why are we the most confused we've ever been? Why do people seem to not understand when a person say like the president of a certain country, is a complete a complete narcissist and only cares about himself and has no real sort of personal morals or virtues of his own? Like, what why does the majority of the country seem to not either not care about that, or not be aware of it, or just accept it and be like, well, that's okay. Everybody's like that. And it's because we're, we, we think we're getting more information, but we're getting less information, because all we're doing is just looking at ourselves, looking for validation of our own opinions, looking for people who repeat what we already believe. And, and this sort of, we're existing in the echo chamber of our own reflections and our own thoughts, and the fact that other people reflect what we're saying what we're thinking or what we want, that doesn't make it less of a mirror, it just makes it a more powerful mirror, a magical mirror, because it really does create that illusion of I'm looking outwards. But in reality, we're just seeking our own reflection. And that's why we have less information because nobody is looking for the truth. We're just looking for what we think we already know. And for validation, confirmation about that. Alright, so how are we plays that apply that to the age of narcissism? Well, the age of narcissism has to do with a modern time when the things that we used to revere what Alfred What's it Adler

trying to think it was Otto ronk, I believe. He called a call that the object of devotion. And he believed in existential psychology, the psychology of existence. He believed that we all need an object of devotion, we need some something outside of ourselves, to devote ourselves to something pure, something good, something to motivate us, and something that we can aspire to. And for all of human history that has been the spiritual that has been God and the different versions of God, you know, just like the hero has 1000 faces, so too does God have 1000 faces. So for most of us, we found that in the heavens, we found that in God, but then we get into the 20th century, and we have all these smart people writing books, and we have Nietzsche saying God is dead. And we have a movement away towards spirituality, because it's not logical. It's not rational. It's not based on what we think we know what we that the narcissist think we know and understand about the world. So we need a different answer. It's kind of like similar to what we were talking about archetypes, like the western hero, super superheroes, meaning when a culture reaches a point of saturation with something they need to move on, they have to change it. So our culture is to a certain standard with either saturated with God, or for what for various reasons found God, no longer meaningful in the way God used to be meaningful. So we have to find other things. And we sit we search outwardly, we search outwardly for heroes, we search outwardly for causes we search outwardly for virtues and issues that we can identify with. But we're fooling ourselves, because we're really just looking at mirrors. We think we're looking outwardly, but we're looking inwardly. And anything that's anything that's a screen is ultimately a mirror, because the only way we understand those characters and those stories, is by associating it with ourselves. So the age of narcissism is this age, when lots of people think they have the answers, and they understand why they're right and why everybody else is wrong. And they just live this life of solipsistic self satisfaction, where they think they have all the answers, they know, they have all the answers, and they're frustrated with everybody else, because they don't seem to be respecting the fact that they have all the answers. But at the end of the day, they're just Narcissus. And they really don't understand other people. And, and they can't, because instead of really trying to understand others, they're just getting more and more reflections of themselves

Alex Ferrari 47:38
as a as a person, a student of psychology. How do you see the society as we've got as the last 120 years that we've had media, as we kind of know it today from the beginning of the film industry, and, and radio and television, and now? computers, internet and all that stuff? How do you think our stories are affecting our society, as far as where we're moving towards? Because we just talked a bit about the age of narcissism. And you can you can kind of start seeing you can see this in the set, 60s and 70s. Were the stories from Hollywood were dark, taxi driver, easy writer. I mean, these are you couldn't even couldn't even conceive of something like that being released today by a major studio. Where do you think this is going for us as a society and also in, in just general American films?

Williams Indick 48:40
It's interesting. Film definitely turned darker in the 60s and 70s. Part of that had to do with the rating system. So prior to the rating system, every movie was was a family movie, family, people went to the movies as families and they sell movies together. So you know, a movie like psycho was seen by tons of, you know, two year olds, and people started to realize like, oh, okay, well,

Alex Ferrari 49:03
this is probably not right.

Williams Indick 49:05
If we want movies to sort of progress as an art form, we are going to have to segregate, you know, children from it. And at the same time, if we want movies to keep on capturing people's attention and make it more interesting, it has to be different from television. Television is a it's for the family. So we have to create movies that aren't necessarily for the family. So the idea of making very dark movies, very dark themes and adding lots of curse words and nudity and sexuality. A lot of that had to do with the struggle to you know, to keep up with television or to compete with television, and cinema trying to redefine itself as an adult art form, as opposed to sort of just mass entertainment, which television had become. And at the same time we saw in America, certainly a much more critical view of America itself. So the old westerns where you had this classic character, who was maybe a little bit dark, because he was violent, and he used violence for his own means, and he used violence in a unilateral way, didn't ask permission. He just killed, killed everybody who thought he should be killed. Um, people in America became a little bit dubious about that. I mean, because at the time, you know, we were in Vietnam, and what the hell are we doing there, and nobody really seemed to know for sure, all we knew was that we, as Americans went there, and just started killing everybody left and right, because we thought that was what we should be doing. And that reflected not just on American society, but on the thing that represents American society. And at that time, certainly by the 60s, it was the western hero, there was nobody, there was no other character that represented America more than the western hero. And that's why the western hero became darker. Because in again, if we apply the notion of narcissism, that when we look at a screen, we think we're looking at something else. But what we're seeing is a reflection of ourselves. If that mirror is not an accurate reflection, know if our feelings about ourselves are dark, and dubious. And we don't know if we're doing the right thing. In fact, if we're pretty sure we're doing the wrong thing, then that mirror reflection in the cinema has to change, it has to reflect that. So that Western hero who best represented America became darker and darker and darker and darker, until it reached a point where nobody wanted to see it anymore. And that was why, you know, it became the superhero. And then the same thing is happening with the superhero, coming darker and darker and darker, until we reached the point where we're not going to recognize that character anymore. It's going to flip and change. So cinema, like television, is this reflection of ourselves on a societal level. And it is very, very true that if you want to get a sense of where a country is where culture is, look at their media, Look at, look at the mirrors that they're using to reflect themselves and see what that tells us. And I would say, you know, right now, our media, certainly for young people is telling us, you know, well, the only way we're going to get out of this mess, is through some type of superhero intervention, some type of divine power needs to come and just change everything. Because we can't rely on people. If you look at the typical super superhero movie, the people that represent average, adults tend to be either corrupt, or downright evil, or just completely helpless and uninformed. They don't know what's going on only the superhero, and usually the adolescent characters that are allied with the superhero who understand the danger, who understand the limits of society, and who know, well, the only thing that can save us is some type of superhero. Possibly, that's why you know, and not our last election, but the previous election, we weren't really looking for a realistic leader for our country, we were looking for some type of fantasy or some type of non person who's who fulfilled fantasies of you know, of being this powerful superhero who's going to change everything didn't work out.

Alex Ferrari 53:20
that's a that's a Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. Because you're right, right now we are if we're looking at if media is our mirror then superheroes are the dominant force of media that we have in our stories. Right now, and especially in cinema. I mean, if you go back and look at the 80s I mean, Jesus you got you know, Arnold, you've got sly, you got Rambo, you've got commando, you've got you know, Chuck Norris, you've got this America kick ass kind of energy. That was throughout the 80s. You know, that's, that's where the action hero as we know, it today kind of was born. But even then, they were super, they were almost cartoonish versions of like, even now today, you know, you know, Liam Neeson is an action hero, you know, you know, but in the 80s, there would be no way of Liam Neeson or let alone a female action here. And we're now that's doable, but back then it was all muscle bound, cartoon versions of human x, exaggerated versions of ourselves.

Williams Indick 54:26
And I, for whatever reason, that was something our society had to go through. The Western hero as we know him became very dark. And he came to represent the things that we hated about ourselves, you know, the violence, the salep system, the inability to see other people's point of view. And so we had to sort of that hero had to be reborn in a new setting. And it became very, I think, one of the reasons it was very militaristic character, was because in a darkening the western hero we did it in a way that was very reflective of what was going on in Vietnam. And in doing so we kind of cast a pall upon another type of hero, the soldier hero, the warrior hero, which is even more ancient than the western hero. And I think as a culture, we needed to sort of recover from that I need to say, you know what, soldiers are good. The American soldier is inherently a good person who wants to do good things. And yes, he's frustrated by officers who want him to do the wrong thing. Or by you know, the government, you know, there's always that represents that representation of corruption. But the US soldier is a good man, he is a Rambo, he is a what was this Schwarzenegger? Well, commando,

Alex Ferrari 55:43
commando and predator? And yeah,

Williams Indick 55:45
although the American soldier is good, and we can trust him to do the right thing. We needed to reaffirm that to ourselves after Vietnam, and after, you know, that whole period dark period of dark self reflection.

Alex Ferrari 56:00
And officer and gentlemen as well, not as a superhero, but but definitely a positive light on a on, you know, the military deal with Tommy Jesus Top Gun. I mean, that's, that was, yeah, there's, there's as much testosterone and one in one movie ever, is Top Gun and probably 300. I mean, there's just so much testosterone. Through those films, it's not even funny. And a lot of the 80s action films, lethal weapons and all that kind of stuff. It was it was, it was an interesting time, but those films wouldn't play today. Not in the same way. Society has changed. I noticed their Top Gun too, is coming out. But he's the mentor now, but he's the mentor now.

Williams Indick 56:44
Okay. Yeah, I would think I would think so because he's a bit old to be playing that hero character. Yeah, so I'm curious to see how it does. Because I think we are in a bit of a different place. We're not really as open to these unilaterally good American heroes as we used to be. So I would be curious to see you know how that movie does and how it handles the problem of American identity.

Alex Ferrari 57:07
And also don't don't ever underestimate the power of nostalgia. That illness that we have is because I'm like, I was there when Top Gun came out. So I'm the first in line to see it, because I want to go back and relive my youth. And that's I think Hollywood's been doing that now for 34 years.

Williams Indick 57:28
Yeah. I mentioned before the problem with originality that there is essentially no truly original character type. And there is no essentially new original type of plot. But at the same time, you got to use something, something original, it's a new setting a new idea, a new catchphrase something. And it does seem that Hollywood has just gotten stuck in just our recapitulating regurgitating its own archetypes over and over and over again. Possibly, because the foreign market is so important now, and arguably is the foreign market is more important, important than the American market in terms of, you know, making a big film successful.

Alex Ferrari 58:09
Right, and I think comment combining genres genre, you know, crashing genres together, like the Western and the science fiction film with Star Wars. And that's when you start, you know, mashing up all these kinds of different genres that does make things a little bit more interesting. Like, what was the god, there's just so many, but like, when when you bring the superheroes down watchmen, when you're like me, watchmen, you brought the superhero down to the to the ground level, and they have problems. And they're, some of them are assets, and some of them are rapists, and some of them are really good and drunks. And that was a comment that made it a very interesting, made more interesting than just Superman. I'm here to save the day.

Williams Indick 58:58
Yeah, I mean, the good thing about the maturation of any genre is it gets more complex. So like, like when food starts to spoil, the beginning of that process is a complexity meaning it becomes more complex, like, you know, a dark cheese, or complex and interesting than hard cheese or a light cheese. But that's because it's beginning to rot. The first sign of rot is the darkening of the characters. And the and the plots becoming a bit more wiring meaning a bit a bit more sort of complex and over all over the place and unexpected things happening. And that's a sign of genre beginning to beginning to rot beginning to the audience's getting saturated with that. So they're trying to figure out ways of making it more complex and more interesting, but it is the very beginning of the end.

Alex Ferrari 59:52
Interesting. That's I love that analogy. I love that writing analogies like this, the beginning starts to get complex and then it just you can't eat it anymore. surfpoint I'm gonna ask you a couple questions ask all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in your industry or in life?

Williams Indick 1:00:11
I'm thinking probably has to do with my process as a writer. And I did I, you know, I was interested in writing screenplays for a long time, and I wrote novels. And now I took me a long time to find a voice and to find what I'm good at. And it wasn't, it's not really what I originally wanted to do. I originally wanted to be a, you know, what I would consider a creative writer to write screenplays, novels, stories, things like that. And it took me a long time to realize that my voice really is in nonfiction. And I think probably that's relevant to anyone who's a writer, we begin the process, thinking, Oh, I'm going to be doing this, I'm going to be doing that. But I think for most of us, it's a process of self discovery. And the thing that is revealed to us is that what we thought we were good at, or what we thought we wouldn't be good at is not it. Kind of like a typical hero's story where a hero goes on sort of adventure after adventure after adventure. And in the process, they learn about themselves, so that by the end of the process, yes, they've had a victory, they did what they set out to do. But the journey was by far more important and more elucidating than the end. So whenever I'm working on a book, now, it's not so much about me thinking, Oh, is this gonna bring me to the level of success that I'm looking for? But it's more about? Am I being as creative as I can be, even though this is nonfiction? Because my goal now is, is to say, well, there's nothing there's no rule that says you can't be very, very creative in writing nonfiction. In fact, you know, if we look at Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, their nonfiction was incredibly creative. And I think yes, so that might be useful, hopefully, for other writers, or filmmakers, or anyone really, in creative pursuit, is you have to give yourself time to find your voice. And then when you do find your voice, you have to be accepting of that you have to get say, like, Well, you know, I don't want to be that type of writer, I don't want to be that type of director or I want to do stuff that I think is cool. Is that really you? Is that where your strength lies? Is that the type of story you're good at telling? Or is that the story you want to tell? You know, it's a process of self discovery.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:34
Right? I mean, I wanted to be a wide receiver for the Miami Dolphins, but that just not a thing.

Williams Indick 1:02:43
Yeah. And, again, we go back to this idea of the hero, you know, we have heroes in movies, but we also have heroes and mentors in real life. And I think, you know, most young people starting out, they find someone like, Oh, I want to be Steven Spielberg, or I want to be George Lucas, or I want to be, you know, this famous writer. And we we use these heroes as templates for our own lives. But our choice of selection is not very comforting. We're looking at the most talented and the most successful people ever. And we're saying why can't I be like them? And it takes a long time for us to, for me to look, give ourselves a break and be like, well, you're not going to be Steven Spielberg. You're not going to be even Steven Soderbergh. That's not who you are. But you can do great work. And you can, you know, love your work. And you can do great interesting things. If you find your voice, if you and if you allow your voice to be heard.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:37
You know what the funny thing is that I think George Lucas and Spielberg wanted to be Kurosawa. And, and quote, unquote, they wanted to be Kurosawa. But he's like, I can't be corsage. Well, I guess we'll just be ourselves. And it worked out, okay, for them.

Williams Indick 1:03:52
It's a part a part of growing up is figuring out who you are, where your strength lies. And it's a bit sad. But yes, resigning yourself to the fact that you're not going to be this dream character based on fantasy that you were trying to be when you were 13 years old. When you're 23, you have to find a new hero and find a new mentor and redefine yourself. And we have to do that at every age of life. Or else we're just going to be constantly, you know, defeating ourselves,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:21
and what are three of your favorite films of all time? Okay.

Williams Indick 1:04:26
First one that always comes to mind is just searchers in that job for 1936 john wayne, and I love that movie for so many reasons. One reason is what we were talking about before, we were talking about how westerns, certainly in the 50s 60s, represented the American character and was a mirror to American society. And in the searchers, john Ford did something that was really fearless. He took john wayne, who was identified as the American hero so strongly that people Like every everybody thought that john wayne was a war hero. He was a warrior. His career was just taking off. He didn't go to war he stayed behind, while everybody else but But nevertheless, he was on all these war movies and people always considered him the quintessential American hero of his age. But he wasn't. So john Ford said, I want to tell the story. It's a classic American story, but it's very dark, because we have a character who's a racist. And when his daughter not done it when his niece is abducted by these comanches His goal is at first to rescue her. But then it's the killer. He wants to kill her because she's living among the Indians. She's, you know, she's gone native. And the only way that he could rest with that, if he killed her, by his own hands is very, very dark character. quest is to kill a little girl, who is his nest? Who's nice? How do you tell that story? And how do you cast the quintessential American hero in that story, very difficult. But john Ford was able to pull it off, and one of the greatest the most visually stunning movies ever made, and one of the most powerful movies ever made. So, you know, I always go back to the searchers, and say, like, wow, hard to make a better movie than not match to art art, like people like what's the greatest movie ever made. And of course, you know, Citizen Kane, whatever, whatever you like. But the searchers is john Ford, arguably the greatest director of all time, john wayne, art, certainly the greatest Western hero of all time. That's a pretty strong pair. Okay, another film. Let me think for a moment, after the surgeries, it gets a little bit harder. And I don't want to say john Ford again. Mmm hmm. Well, just because, first of all, this list of like three greatest things, it's always going to be changing. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:52
of course. Just right now, just today. Yeah, today.

Williams Indick 1:06:56
Right now I'm thinking about the movie Pan's Labyrinth. I'm writing about it. And classic movie by guerra, Guillermo del Toro. And again, he's doing something somewhat similar, where he's taking a fairy tale, the story of the fairy tale about the young girl who's coming of age, and she has a wicked stepfather. And there's a, you know, a sort of a fairy character, and we don't know whether it's good or evil. So it's a classic fairytale. But he, rather than avoiding the darkness that we see in the sort of classic grimms brothers fairy tales, he delves into the darkness, darker and darker and darker. But at the same time, he never loses that fairy tale quality of it. And we never lose the sort of innocence of the girl and we never stopped identifying with her. That was just a wonderful thing to pull off. Where How can you How can you tell a fairy tale that's true to fairy tales, but at the same time, is excessively dark, and terrifying. And, you know, really, really sort of, you know, brings up these questions about, you know, human nature and things like that. So you know, when a film can do can be dark and light at the same time, that to me, it's kind of like an impressive thing to pull off. So I really enjoyed that. When we try to think of another film. Well, I'll just tell you, again, this is just stuff that I've recently seen and was impressed by. But I was very impressed by 1917, which was just visually stunning. So it has that sort of spectacle aspect of cinema. But it tells a simple story, where you're basically following these two characters, and then this one character to the end, and it gets darker and darker and darker. But because there is a basic heroism to the character that we all can identify with. And he's just a man who's given a mission, and he needs to get it done. It's very simple, simple motivation, a very simple story. But it gets very, you know, it gets into the complexities of the characters in a way that you know, wonderful. And again, it's mixing a darkness with light in a way that can be inspirational for the viewer. And I was very impressed by that.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:11
And now where can people find you and your books?

Williams Indick 1:09:16
Well, my books are all you know, out there, go to amazon.com or McFarlane pub comm, you'll find a most of my books. Me personally, I'm a psychology professor William Paterson University in New Jersey. And looking forward to going back and teaching regular in person class. This fall, everything was online for a while, um, I do have a book that just came out, and it's called media environments in the mind. And it deals a lot with you know, when I was talking before about narcissism, and the notion is that all media is a mirror, and how do we understand ourselves at a time when we're constantly being reflected in a million ways? So that's the sort of academic book that I just came out, but I also am just got a contract for a second edition of psychology for screenwriters, which will have a lot more information about writing for genre.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:11
Bill, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been. It's been a journey down the rabbit hole speaking to you today. So I I do appreciate you man. Thank you so much for being on the show.

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BPS 133: The RAW and Scandalous Truth Behind the Writing of Boondock Saints with Troy Duffy

November 14, 2021August 11, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I’m sure many of you are familiar with the cult indie film classic The Boondock Saints. But many of you might not know the crazy story of its writer and director Troy Duffy.

Well, prepare to get your mind BLOWN. I had an EXCLUSIVE discussion with Troy this week, and let’s say, he did not hold back. Nothing was off-limits – from his instant rise to fame to the brutal fate he met – getting blacklisted, all of it. He wanted to set the record straight because there is always another side to the story, and what better side to hear than that of the man who lived this brutal Hollywood adventure?

Troy Duffy moved to Hollywood in his twenties to chase the dream of a music career with his band, The Brood. While seeking music gigs, he tended bar at a local Los Angeles dive, where he wrote the screenplay for The Boondock Saints during his break periods.

The muse for the script happened one day when he came home from his job to find a dead hooker being wheeled out of a drug dealer’s apartment across the hall. Duffy went and rented a computer (as he couldn’t afford to buy one) and wrote the screenplay for The Boondock Saints based on his feelings of disgust at what he had just seen. As he puts it:

I decided right there that out of sheer frustration and not being able to afford a psychologist, I was going to write this, think about it. People watching the news sometimes get so disgusted by what they see. Susan Smith drowning her kids… guys going into McDonald’s, lighting up the whole place. You hear things that disgust you so much that even if you’re Mother Teresa, there comes a breaking point. One day you’re gonna watch the news and you’re gonna say,
‘Whoever did that despicable thing should pay with their life. You think — for maybe just a minute — that whoever did that should die, without any fuckin’ jury. I was going to give everybody that sick fantasy. And tell it as truthfully as I could. I wrote Boondock Saints in three sections. I wrote the very beginning and then I started thinking of cool shit for the middle. Then somehow between the beginning and the middle, the ending dictated itself.

The screenplay featured two brothers in Boston dedicated to killing Mafia thugs. He successfully got the script into the hands of Harvey Weinstein of Miramax Films, who bought the screenplay for $300,000 intending to film the movie on a $15,000,000 budget.

Now what happened over the next three years is a remarkable cautionary tale. I saw this documentary called Overnight, the 2003 documentary that chronicled Duffy’s rise and fall. Troy was portrayed in the film as an egomaniacal maniac, obsessed with the heights of his talent and abusive to his friends. He goes on to lose his mega-deal, with the now conflict sexual predator Harvey Weinstein, his friends, and his Hollywood connections.

Of course, there are two sides to every story. Troy took full responsibility for what he did and said in the documentary but as I told him editing can be a bitch. The filmmakers amplified the negative, manufactured storylines and really damaged Troy’s film career. I mean the film made Troy look insane. You can watch the film by CLICKING HERE and make up your own mind.

Now, this should have been the end of the tale but we all love a great comeback story. After being dropped by Harvey and Miramax, still believing that the film was a hot commodity, Troy Duffy convinced agents at the William Morris Agency to help him market it to other studios.

The independent production company Franchise Pictures agreed to finance the project, for $7 million, less than half of Miramax’s original budget. The Boondock Saints grossed over $50 million in domestic video sales, of which Troy Duffy received nothing due to the bad deal he signed with the distribution company but after the debacle of the Miramax deal, he didn’t have many options.

According to Troy Duffy, no one on the film got paid; not him, his producers, or the cast. He sued Franchise Pictures for royalties of the first film, merchandise, and sequel rights. After a lengthy lawsuit, Troy, his producers, and the principal cast received an undisclosed amount of The Boondock Saints royalties as well as the sequel rights.

Years later, Troy Duffy finally returned for the sequel to The Boondock Saints, titled The Boondock Saints II: All Saints Day which was released on October 30, 2009.

The film grossed $11 million at the box office (the film was released limited, never playing on more than 524 screens) and has grossed over $50 million in DVD sales (as of June 2012). The film had an $8 million budget.

Currently, Duffy has several projects in development, including “Boondock Saints III.”

Troy Duffy receives the golden ticket and then struggled to deal with it but it seemed that was the journey he needed to take as a filmmaker, a person, and a human being. If put on the same path in my early twenties I don’t know how I would have reacted. I would have probably wouldn’t have fared well at all.

Troy and I dive into the deep end of the pool in this conversation. He revealed things he never had before. We discuss the making of Overnight, his interactions with the now-disgraced Harvey Weinstein, and where he sees himself going from here.

Enjoy my exclusive and entertaining as hell conversation with Troy Duffy.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show. Troy Duffy, man, how are you doing brother?

Troy Duffy 0:05
Doing good. I'm doing good. That felt good. We like we have been talking for half an hour.

Alex Ferrari 0:10
Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's fresh baby. It's fresh. It's free. I'm a professional, sir. Now. Listen, man I am I'm so gratefully you wanted to come on the show. And and I've been a huge fan of yours, man. Because you are one of those stories, man you are. You are one of those stories that you tell filmmakers to scare them at the middle of the night. And I you know, and I heard this story when I was coming because you and I are of similar vintage. So we were coming up around the same time. So anytime and and I've said this 1000 times on the show man, the 90s was a crazy time to be an independent filmmaker. And it was these all these kind of crazy stories were coming up. And it was the rise of Miramax and the man who shall not be named, which we'll discuss later, and all of that, and all of all of that kind of stuff. And your story came out and it was just like, okay, that's another. That's another Ed Burns. It's another El Mariachi. It's another clerk. I mean, there was just so many current Carnahan, all those guys,

Troy Duffy 1:12
Joe Carnahan, just over a year, a year and a half ago turned out we were like secret fans of each other. It was this embrace between two owners that have been through it and independent film bad, you know, oh, my God just been there. It would have been great. It would have been perfect, perfect circle jerk.

Alex Ferrari 1:28
Due I swear to God, so I just had Joe on the show. And Joe and I become buddies. Matt. Joe, is I absolutely I understand that you too, just by the small amount of time I've spent with you. This the second I started talking to him like oh, yeah, you and Joe would get along famous. Joe would love you. It's just like kindred spirits.

Troy Duffy 1:45
I couldn't believe I'm not I met him. We went to his screening of the new movie he was doing about a year and a half ago with his best friend who is starring it ended up being a really great one. But I hadn't met Joe yet. I just meant like when I saw blood guts, bullets in octane.

Alex Ferrari 1:57
Yeah, man. It's like,

Troy Duffy 1:58
Who's this guy? And then, you know, every time we got interviewed, he seemed like the the john wayne of film, and I'm just tough as nails. And yeah, like, he sees me, it gets, you know, inundated by fans and stuff afterwards. And he sees me and he just he does one of these and he goes Duffy like, boom, and I'm getting close, like, this guy is he's really freakin strong.

Alex Ferrari 2:25
he's a big dude.

Troy Duffy 2:27
Exchange, even though I'm terrible social media. We did a little exchanging, you know, some grant money last night, and

Alex Ferrari 2:33
it shows you guys was oh my god, it would be amazing. If you guys

Troy Duffy 2:38
do a movie together, like maybe I produce some stuff that he directs and writes and vice versa.

Alex Ferrari 2:43
Would that be amazing?

Troy Duffy 2:44
Film guys helping each other? COVID crap.

Alex Ferrari 2:47
Jesus Christ, man. So um, so yeah. So I wanted to bring you on the show, man. Because there's been a lot of myths around your story. There's been a lot of, you know, things happening. There was obviously that documentary, which we'll talk about and things that happened in happens, I wanted to kind of really take it straight from the horse's mouth, from the from the guy who is in the center of the storm. What the hell happened? So take us back up this take us back to the bar, man, when you were when you're when you're bouncing, and you wrote a script? How take us from there. And take us down the journey, sir.

Troy Duffy 3:22
Well, you know, in long in the short of it is yeah, I've had quite the wild ride. But most of it has been extremely lucky to have been able to do what I do. And I'm very grateful that boondock turned out the way it did. You know, having faith in something like that, and then having it be confirmed by the public is about I have the greatest fans in the world. And believe me, they're long suffering because I'm not so good at the social media thing. It's like it's grown up around me. And I'm like, I started out with a guy like, you know, taking a picture of his croissant in the morning. It's Oh my god. 1000 people, like your croissant. I didn't get it. Right. But yeah, you know, I came to Hollywood. I can't once upon a time I came to Hollywood was a dream. And it was music at the time. When I first came out here. I wanted to be a rock musician, and my brother and I found some in one was our friend from Colorado, we formed a band and tried to make it happen. And then this all came up in the middle of it because what happened was I I got so sick of saying shitty movies that I said, I'm going to write one of these and I you know, I've had a bit of a history with writing. My father was a Harvard English Lit grad that made all of his kids read a novel a month, extra correctly, and we had to be ready to talk about it. That dinner on this particular you know, whatever Sunday we were done with the book and we better have known our stuff. My dad was also a wing English teacher. And so he made made it so I knew what good writing was great writing was was shitty writing was okay writing was and why the wise the W's of all that. So I had a lot of experience and I always had my head in a book, you know, always, always do today actually. So it wasn't the biggest leap in the world, you know, when it came out like, it's this guy's first script, you know, believe

Alex Ferrari 5:20
a bouncer a bound a bouncer from a bar in LA wrote a first screenplay and got picked up. That's the story that that was the narrative.

Troy Duffy 5:28
It was the first script and that really pissed every long suffering writer in this town off. I remember this one time, dude, when the script was really gaining speed, and everybody's hearing about it, and I maybe I made the deal at this point. I'm not exactly sure. But I went to the local Starbucks. And as I'm gonna line it to the back of this evidently writers frustrated writers quorum and they're all reading my script. I had no idea how they got it. But I didn't say anything. So I got this momentary glimpse into what other writers thought, and they just tore it apart, thought it was shit. And they were really upset about that. It was my first script and half of them didn't believe it. Like No, no no way

Alex Ferrari 6:08
Someone can Ghost ghost, Ghost writting.

Troy Duffy 6:12
So I you know, the instant ire of every long suffering writer in Hollywood was what happened like right away, but yeah, I just I got the thing done. I had a friend and contacted new line, cinema. CP was a buddy of mine from before, he was now an assistant on a producer's desk over there. He read the thing said, Would you mind if I handle this? And I was like, go ahead. I never thought it would even get read. I was just kind of doing it as a kind of side thing.

Alex Ferrari 6:43
But you by the way, when you were writing the screenplay, from what I understand you'd like didn't even know what format was like, What did you do? Like, did you longhand it and then transfer it? How would that go?

Troy Duffy 6:51
I had a friend you know, that worked in the in the movie business, you know, a huge surprise being here

Alex Ferrari 6:59
in LA.

Troy Duffy 7:00
I was like, Can you get me a script that's actually been made into a movie. And she got me the script of was a it was a Robin williams movie called jack. Yeah. Yes. Copeland, right. Yes, read the format. and copy it. I was scrolling things in notebooks while I was on the door at sloans. And then I would rent a computer, mid to late 90s. You know, 95, I think is when this is happening. Mid 90s. I would rent a computer every weekend, just transfer it over and copy the format from the from the draft script. So I cobbled together this thing that kind of looks like a script.

Alex Ferrari 7:39
So it makes it makes screenwriters hate you even that much more.

Troy Duffy 7:43
I don't even understand the time they were writing programs. I don't even know if there was but

Alex Ferrari 7:47
there was their final draft was around a final draft.

Troy Duffy 7:52
So yeah, and then it just took off from there. Evidently, you know, what I expected was for it to go into the you know, big gray ocean of crap that that that Hollywood was famous for churning out and what happened was the opposite. They read something that instantly had an effect on every reader and so began this, you know, court ship by all the agencies trying to get me you know, all the CIA's and William Morris is the one with William Morris. And, you know, the, the journey started right there. And that was like, it's funny, because there's a dichotomy here. There's the journey started with you know, Harvey Weinstein buys a guy a bar for his first first time fledgling director. So, you know, pull on a Troy Duffy in Hollywood became that type of thing, a success story. And then just a few years later, Paul and Troy Duffy was just going down in flames.

Alex Ferrari 8:48
Yeah, and, and that's what makes your story such a an amazing, kind of, you know, mythical stories because you dude, you flew to the top like you had a zoom

Troy Duffy 8:59
meeting with a producer the other day that was like I've been looking forward to this for like a week just to check you know, see you and how you are like all that shit that happened and what you did to Harvey Weinstein right well but there's like a circus freak thing with me now it's like like that is what

Alex Ferrari 9:22
what? No Yeah, I'm sure people are gonna ask me like Did he eat his children when he was off the off and like no

Troy Duffy 9:28
now you living under a bridge now?

Alex Ferrari 9:31
Yeah, this is this is a fake background that you've got going on? And that honestly man that's one of the reasons why I wanted you on the show today because I wanted you to set the kind of record straight because there is so much bs out there about it and so many rumors and stories and and you know, and obviously the doc which we'll get to in a minute and all of that kind of shit that just kind of built into this and then the whole mythology of boondock by itself, like the movie itself and, and all that. So it so you were at the top of the top You I mean, I don't think there was anyone faster to the top. And I don't think there was anyone faster that flew back down so quickly.

Troy Duffy 10:11
And I thought I was looking forward to getting into some of this because after, you know, 25 years I think I've finally figured out what happened.

Alex Ferrari 10:19
Exactly. Alright. So you get to William Morris has a script now they're wrapping it out there. And there's from I understand there's a bidding war right there became a bidding war.

Troy Duffy 10:28
Yeah, between the two biggest indie houses out there it was Mike DeLuca. At job, new line and Harvey Weinstein of Miramax. And it was that year that Miramax swept the Oscars. I think they took 11 Oscars, so it was a lot and all that. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 10:42
yeah, it was like, it was like at the height of

Troy Duffy 10:45
Harvey had found out that new line wanted it. And every had it faxed to him on the private jet that he was on his way to the Oscars. By the time he landed and read every fact page, he was like, get this kid, you know, in my hotel room.

Alex Ferrari 11:03
So just that which is not as good. Which is not a good thing. Normally,

Troy Duffy 11:09
Yes it's not necessarily a good thing these days. But yeah, I mean, then that that bidding war started between the two bigger biggest guys out there in the indie world DeLuca and Weinstein

Alex Ferrari 11:22
and then and then you told me story. Last time we spoke about Harvey when he when you walked into the room when you first met Harvey, within the first five minutes, I found this so fascinating.

Troy Duffy 11:34
Yeah, the first one Okay, well, let's let's rehash Yeah. Harvey is every bit the the gangster that everyone thinks he is. I walked into the room. And you know, dairy is there's this nosh like a buffet set up in this place of the Peninsula hotel. And I'm his brother, Bob. And I remember Harvey was just like getting fitted for a tux. And he sits down in his chair and he's got he's got his knee up like this, this big belly sticking out. His brother's over his shoulder, almost like, like a bird on his shoulder that Bob has seemed to be the sort of brains of the outfit. And Harvey was the brawn, the muscle is like Harvey says, you know who? What actors are you seeing in this for the roles and he knew everything about the script. Right? So I was like, Well, you know, first guy I picked out was Jim Carrey. This is when Jim was in the process of doing The Truman Show his first dramatic picture. But I was friends with his man, I'd become good friends and his manager Jimmy Miller, at that point, who is Incidentally, Dennis Miller's brother, and they both have exactly the same advice. Just It was totally uncanny. But Jamie, hanging out the bar and stuff. And I love Jimmy and I was like, Can we get it was a moment where he was trying to get it. But I was like, So Jim Carrey for this woman I listed as actors for the other roles. And he goes, let me tell you something. You don't go with Miramax with Boondock out you don't get Boondock Saints to Miramax make a deal with me. I'm going to get every actor you just listed in my movies and you won't get a single one.

Alex Ferrari 13:10
Wow,

Troy Duffy 13:12
I was just like, dang, no, there was like, there's two things that happen when you get gangster that well that quickly.

Alex Ferrari 13:18
Yeah,

Troy Duffy 13:18
Number one, you're pissed. You're like, I totally just walked into that. Number two, you're like, I kind of want this guy on my side. If I go make a movie. Now. These days, probably not

Alex Ferrari 13:31
not. Not so much at the moment. And everyone listening. I mean, he was the he was the 800 pound gorilla literally and figuratively, in in Hollywood at that time. So I was telling you the other day, it was just like, it's kind of like you want a really cutthroat shark of a lawyer on your team and not against you. And that's kind of the same reaction you had.

Troy Duffy 13:53
Yeah, it was like, you know, is and I think I said the other day when we're talking Yeah, you want a real shark lawyer. You just don't want to have to go out to dinner with them. You know, which is not exactly I got a kick out of Harvey back in those days. And a lot of ways, but you know, that idea of reaching down into the gutter and pulling up this kid it was it was like pretty, pretty effective, man. All the stuff that was going on all the ink that came from it, because I think it was during a conversation that happened slightly after that, because I didn't make the decision in the room. We're going Miramax producers right behind me going don't do that. I'll shut you know tell them you've given us a gift. You'll think about it. He came down to the bar a couple days later, his big limo pulls up Harvey and his whole entourage come out. And we all sit around having beers and he was just like, Hey, what are you gonna do with the money because he knew that I hadn't had any real money in my life. I said, I'll probably buy this place. I love this bar. And he's like, I'll buy it with you. We'll split it 50 50 I said deal. You got the fucking script. Let's go and I got all that. So much. So That was like kind of the start of it. You know, I woke up, like a couple mornings later there I am on the cover of USA Today. odd feeling, you know, get a call from your dad, like, What the hell are you doing out there?

Alex Ferrari 15:13
Have you been telling your parents about this at this point, like, you're like telling what's going on,

Troy Duffy 15:17
I'm keeping them informed, but I didn't really, you know, know myself, it was such a whirlwind. I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff in the towel, you know, but it was, you know, my advice for anybody that this half for the three people this is going to happen to over the next 20 years. best efforts to negotiate the purchase of in a contract means no efforts, that actually did not happen. We didn't buy the bar together, and I didn't even buy it. So but they got a lot of ink, you know, and that was the beginning of all you want the Duffy deal type thing.

Alex Ferrari 15:52
Jesus Christ. All right. So you're, you're you've got to deal with, you go with Harvey. And now you start going through casting and now you're meeting everybody in town, you mean you're the you're the belle of the ball to like everybody wants to know, everyone wants to be in this is such an LA thing wants to be in Detroit Duffy business

Troy Duffy 16:17
was, that was what was happening at the time. And I think that I disappointed my handlers because all the people I wanted to meet were were my heroes of film, and not necessarily gigantic movie stars, which I didn't turn down. But I was like, you know, I want to meet Patrick Swayze, bro. And I mean, Jeff Goldblum I want to meet you know, and then I, you know, a bunch of others that have done the the movies that I loved and cherished, you know, and I was thinking about, I also didn't think that this was during the time where I don't know if you remember this, you have to remember that you were right there with me on this one. There was that time where big movie stars were coming down and doing small independent films to sort of reclaim their street cred. Tech, this movie from that I just thought like, no matter who the movie star is, they bring in that baggage. And I think I have a story here that's obviously effective. And I want to tell it the right way. So I thought it needed either no names or up and comers or slightly recognizable people a that guy saw what we can take them to the next level. And you know, not the best way I can terms of the business and producers. You know, if you're getting the movie star attention, but you want to go this way, that's not such a great thing. And then the next thing is he's difficult to work with.

Alex Ferrari 17:35
Right? And if your first one to this was your first or if you already had a huge hit. If you had Reservoir Dogs, and you want to do Pulp Fiction, or you want to do Jackie Brown and you want to you want to catch Robert Forster as a lead. You can you had that secret, but you were doing it right up front. And that's where that was one mistake.

Unknown Speaker 17:51
Yeah, and possibly, you know, my my adjustment on that because the Quentin used notable guys, though, that may not have been movie stars at the time. But you know, all those guys in Reservoir Dogs, one of my favorite film, they were all, you know, established actors. Yeah, period, I was actually looking for some pretty fresh faces. There was one point at which I found this new young actor who loved this script and camped out on my doorstep, Heath Ledger, and he

Alex Ferrari 18:20
Wow

Unknown Speaker 18:21
He loved it so much. And he was kind of coming off this kind of Teenybopper

Alex Ferrari 18:25
forgiving 10 10 10 Things I Hate About You. Is that, yeah, that's the one.

Troy Duffy 18:31
But I loved him. He was Australian. And he was like, way tougher in his image than he was. But he's a deep, deep artist. And so you know, I remember actually meeting with his agency and saying, Do you have anybody that looks like this? But they were you know, dangling movie stars in a very in silly would kind of surprise you know, this young upstart kid over here is who you want when we're giving you this? So that started the sort of he's he's difficult to work with,

Alex Ferrari 18:59
And and how old were you when this whole thing

Troy Duffy 19:02
It's happening? Maybe 24

Alex Ferrari 19:04
Jesus Christ, dude. And if I was telling you the other day that I had a similar, not nearly as publicized experience around 26 when I almost made that movie for the Mob, and I wrote the whole book about it and all that kind of stuff. And I did this I did. I almost did the same thing. I didn't have the President have the ink, but I was talking to the big producers. I was meeting some of those actors. You were talking to him going to people's houses. I'm like flying out to LA. And I'm going through all of this process. But the big difference was you had a gangster who actually can get things done on your corner. I had a gangster who was just threatening me on a daily basis.

Troy Duffy 19:41
Your fans out there Alex told his story yesterday and I was I was just got laughing. It was like you said something like, I was like going to set every day with Joe passion is like a kid. We're like what we're saying is incredibly terrific. Then you'd have like a death threat before.

Alex Ferrari 19:58
How am I clear to you? Am I funny? Why am I funny, they then you get that moment. So it's just absolutely brutal. So you're 27 of the budget, you know,

Troy Duffy 20:08
this is foods and beverages here, this is a serious thing and you get a ticket.

Alex Ferrari 20:13
So you're 24 years old, which meant, I don't know, any 24 year old who can handle the kind of that kind of pressure in general, like that kind of success so quickly, it's a difficult thing to handle. When you're our age. Like, it's, it's let's handle that kind of attention that success, man, what did you think?

Troy Duffy 20:30
I do, but well, you know, you're so reluctant to even admit that because, you know, there's so many, there's so many people out there that want to get into writing and directing and stuff like that. And, you know, oh, I don't know how I handle the success.

Alex Ferrari 20:43
No, but it's but I get that, but it's a real thing. It is

Troy Duffy 20:47
It's like because it's like anybody would want that. I totally wish I had the tools built into me to do the right things, you know, right. I could give advice like what I do now, I would make that black book, keep in contact with every big producer agent, I keep the numbers, make sure they knew what I was doing. Just call them up to chat every now and then. Because it is an incredibly social business. It is who you know, I did not know that at the time, I would also recommend that you've got to set up your second project immediately. You can't just roll all the dice and put all your focus on that you have to have a place to land no matter what happens here. Those types of things I wish I would have known. I was just kind of free fallen through it, you know,

Alex Ferrari 21:31
yeah. And

Troy Duffy 21:33
had the you know, I wish I'd had the wisdom. Maybe I if I had talked to you at the time. I

Alex Ferrari 21:39
was I all I could tell you is this when I was going through my version of Boondock Saints at a much smaller level of success. Or attentive for that matter. I was the only reason my head and my head was still so effing big man. It was I was I was like I'm being flown out. I'm meeting these legends and icons and big producers and, and all this kind of stuff. My ego was pretty big. The only thing that kept me in check was just a giant monster sitting behind me threatening my life. That's the only reason I was not completely out of control. Because my ego was so ridiculously out of control. At that age. I didn't know any better. So it's it's not surprising. So that's what you know, I was introduced to you, obviously through the ink that happened when the whole thing went down. But then years later, this documentary shows up called overnight, and it doesn't, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna say something though. It doesn't pay it doesn't paint the best picture. I'm just throwing it out there. There's it's a slight it's a slight slightly it's slightly off. So you know, you watch you watch that. And when you when I first watched it, I you know, I'll be honest with you, like anybody who watches like, Oh, this guy's a fucking maniac. This guy's crazy. He threw his whole life away all this stuff. But in when I got older man, I look back and I go, you know what, man First of all, editing. Secondly, firstly, editing, editing can be a bitch. And I can I can cut anybody to look like anything. I mean, even if you give them the meat, you can make it look much worse than it really was. That's one, too. I put myself in your place. And I go, you know what, man? If I was 24 25 and I had that go through me, I'm not sure I would be much better. To be honest. So I had compassion and empathy for what you were going through. So overnight shows up, you know, tell me what, what your experience was with that when it showed up? How it happened, all that kind of stuff.

Troy Duffy 23:32
How it happened is probably the place to start there. How it had first, like sort of blanket statement, this was totally my fault. 100% I'm like crow eat? Yes. I should never have even let it happen. Never mind. You know, with my friends and stuff all I had a I had an entourage around me that had had that was the guys in the band and a couple of really close friend we were all at the bar was like a social family. When I met Mark Wahlberg it was it was really funny because he had an entourage too, you know in our entourage like mirror images of each other is like the two Western guys coming across. But we really liked each other and I should have learned more from him. He was really good at dealing with his with his with his guys and I just kind of wasn't you know, those guys that did the actual documentary where a guy named more Brian Smith another guy named Tony Montana, aka Tony the pants, which was the monitor we gave him they were friends they were bros hanging out they were part of the gang and now you know one of them came up with this idea pitched it to me like you're going through all this stuff. Now we started documentary now you knew that idea was music and film go through another album The making of the film and it can become like an education. documentary for kids at Film School, which it did, it was great. Collections guys really pulled that one off. And the so they got they got together on it. And Mark had just graduated New York Film School and Tony wanted to be a producer. So they kind of seemed like a perfect match. And they were joking they started doing it. But I mean, if I if I really had the analogy that to describe what actually happened, it's when you invite like six of your buddies over your house to help you build a front porch within 10 minutes everybody's arguing about what kind of what kind of screws to use if the foundations Okay, now we got to demo the old one out all the way we got a day everybody Are you get it done at the end of the day with there's strife I think, and you feel like maybe I should have hired a subcontractor. Got my hands dirty on this one. But basically, you know, it sort of started out Well, these guys are like really highly motivated. And they were bros, you know, so we had when I would come out of the wherever I was, and Mark would come out of the bushes literally with the camera. I'm like, wow, that's dedication. Right. But I didn't I took my eye off the ball I but what happened was that, you know, antagonism between all of us. And the documentarians started feeling slighted, and a lot of ways and can't say they didn't have a point a bunch of times, but I was that naive kid that was like, it'll all work out in the wash. We're all bros, everything will be fine. Just do your documentary. And it was supposed to be you know, not not what it ended up being supposed to be like this story. And you know, the I think the the number one thing I those guys would say, I was like, Hey, don't worry, we're your friends, we'd never Fuck it. Because they were getting like, you know, some pretty saucy footage on all, I can't tell you how many times you know, after a drunken night, one of the guys called me up. All right, you know, bandmate and get those guys over here. And

Alex Ferrari 26:56
erase the tapes, or erase the tapes,

Troy Duffy 26:58
the tapes, call crack, call click. So, you know, it's it started that way with just these little seeds of discontent. And you know, by the time we were done, going through the whole rigmarole of the movie and the album and all have it was like the most It was the most the hardest year two years of my life, getting all that done, and all the ups and downs in it. And then they get their footage and they just like disappear. And, you know, the first thing we all felt was relief. We were like, Alright, we don't have to have these arguments anymore. Do what we thought they were just taking a break and when Kent would come back but you know, a year later this thing comes up. And when we did they did enact tell you

Alex Ferrari 27:45
anything that was going on, they just started cutting this thing. And they just said, because you signed it, you signed a release obviously. So they just cut it and released it without letting you know at all anything.

Troy Duffy 27:57
Correct?

Alex Ferrari 27:58
Oh, sun Jesus Christ. That's bad. Not only is it bad form, but I mean, at least I would if you're going to and I don't even hold with a man I'm carrying me they were kids to

Troy Duffy 28:12
the real tragedy there is that they they had it they had the film, they told me they were going to make that they had 400 hours I think of real depth. You know straight immediately when things happen. Behind the scenes, they had a deeper behind the scenes than I could ever imagine. I mean, the guys gave them all the access in the world even when we were doing movies and albums. We told everybody around but we'd hold them up these guys are doing it please help them. So the they have the day to day true story of what really happened there. And and the In my opinion, triumphant story that it is Boondocks ended up doing something and being something to people meaning a lot of to a lot of people and it came out of all that turmoil. And that documentary. I mean, can you imagine? What if the fans could get a hold of something like that? That, you know was wasn't a smeary thing, but like this is what happened. This is how we we we actually got there. I can't tell you how many people have done two things that really kind of jive. I find it jarring. Like a guy will go Hey, I saw your documentary last night. And I'm like, Whoa, that is not my doc.

Alex Ferrari 29:29
Why would I direct or release this?

Troy Duffy 29:33
Like who the hell would do that to themselves? And the other the other the other one I find jarring is that people kind of there's there's there's two there's two things about it like what you just said was kind of prophetic when you're young and in film school and you watch it you're just like tale of tragedy. This guy's a maniac dismissal I learned something from this. Don't be a dick.

Alex Ferrari 30:00
Exactly, it's exactly what I said,

Troy Duffy 30:02
watch it when you're your age and you go editing. There's a lot. So there's there is a Even though 100% my fault, so never let it happen, right? If I want I should have deign to control it better. But that yes, there is that aspect to it, there is an aspect to it, whether there was some very loosely edited scenes to make points that didn't really happen that way.

Alex Ferrari 30:33
Right. And the thing that's sad about it is I think you're right if they have 400 hours of footage of this entire experience of from from the beginning up to the beginning and the end. You know, what part of that journey is probably a little messy, probably a little egocentric. We lost our heads a little bit Hey, man, any of us would, but it would have been actually really more in just a better documentary if you would have gone back at the redemption phase where like, you know what, I've learned something. And I'm going to fight and I'm going to keep going I'm going to get Boondocks done. And again,

Troy Duffy 31:00
that's one of the things that you know, was kind of a necessity to make me We never had me and the guys that all signed off on this to the filmmakers who were just frankly our friends you know, we the whole thing was you know, we didn't hold back we gave them your part of the rub was we were giving them some pretty saucy footage we were hanging open their cameras up wide on some things that most people wouldn't you know, put risk making me or all of us look bad. And we started getting concerned in that way. And the the shame of it is that they have they had they had they had people that were willing to do that. Give them the real story all you got to do this a little bit and tell the real story. Don't embarrass people on unnecessarily don't attack them don't just tell the damn story in the people people are but by the way they're interested in the in the sensational for about two seconds.

Alex Ferrari 32:05
Right?

Troy Duffy 32:06
What depth What is this saying? What is this teaching me? And that story, I think is probably still out there somewhere in 400 hours of footage in a dark you know film film storage place and it's a shame.

Alex Ferrari 32:21
Have you guys and have you ever have you ever talked to them again after that or no? day they

Troy Duffy 32:25
walked out of my life? In this thing I have heard no hide nor hair. I have seen them talk to them nothing.

Alex Ferrari 32:33
Wow, for like that's took 20 years now something like that. It's only been since since then that happened. Jesus Christ man. And that's I because I went again, when I saw this. I was like one day I would love to talk to Troy and find out what the hell happened behind the scenes because nobody in their God in their, in their sane mind would allow this to happen. Like you just said, like you just

Troy Duffy 32:52
yeah, I wasn't as hard as it is to believe after watching that. I was saying that happened in a very, you know, the normal way rubs between antagonism between between people that are all trying to go towards the same goal. It just happens. You know, you get kind of sometimes I'm ashamed of it. Sometimes I'm sorry about it. Sometimes I can feel a guy in a room, you know, is looking at some producer over here is looking at me because they always come up afterwards. And I like well, what happened? You know, so it's something that haunts me and hangs over me. But, you know, I know what happened there. It's funny, too, because I didn't watch it for a couple of years or right when it came out. I didn't watch it. Right. And I was at on advice from Billy Connolly. He was like, you know, don't watch it. Boy, it might be a boy. And we could just say I haven't seen it fuck him. Right? then it came about, you know, it kind of screwed me in a business deal over here in the in the on a project. So I watched it. And there is nothing more boring than watching yourself for an hour. Yeah. It's just like, but then I saw kind of what they did. I was there. I know what really happened. And I kind of saw how it was, you know, I'm sure creatively edited together to surface you know, some some things that weren't. It gave false impressions here and there. But yes, I did all that stuff. I yelled all that all those people, I mistreated people. But you know, the question you have to ask yourself is Can somebody actually do that? And actually, why is everybody throwing money in deals with this kid if he's acting like this 24. So those were the exceptions, those moments where the exceptions, smooth things out, deepened my relationships. And I was able to get this done on my terms. My very first one, you know, and that's the story really. And yeah, they're never going to see that I guess.

Alex Ferrari 34:51
So. I mean, that would be amazing. If one day you know these guys, maybe they'll watch this and they'll go Look, man, let's try to do a real version of this. I don't I don't That'll ever happen. That's a magical world thinking but no, but like, you know, wouldn't that be amazing? If you're like, Look, I'll give you the 400 hours try you do whatever you want with it and cut your own documentary that way.

Troy Duffy 35:13
Then Then you go, you go to the other side, we're back to editing. I can't edit together truthfully, my own story.

Alex Ferrari 35:19
No, you have to hire somebody.

Troy Duffy 35:21
That makes me look bad. I just like hire you. I'd be like, Alex, you gotta fucking do this for me. You'd be like, 400 hours of footage. I got my own shit going, bro. I'm not doing this. And I'll be like, I need somebody that's not me that I trusted.

Alex Ferrari 35:34
Let's go. Let's You, me and Joe. We'll get together. Well, you so hard, dude. We'll all sit together, we'll get an editor to come together, we'll put all the footage together put out the true story of the making of Boondock saints. Finally, finally, after 25 years. All right. So good. I'm glad that would that's out of the way. And we kind of talked about Overnight, because I'm sure that's one of your favorite topics that always talk about.

Troy Duffy 36:00
It's great. It's wonderful. What was really bad was like, during the the sequel when we came up with a sequel, when we tell boondock to it, that had already been an old story for like, seven, eight years, from 2000 to 2003. We were coming out in 2009 ish. And almost every reporter It was like they just googled, okay, what's Who's this aihole? Oh, and they asked me questions about it, Norman, Shawn, would have to they were put in a position of having to defend their friend and director. And I, I was super pissed off about Now, of course, will embarrass but, you know, it also shows you when you got friends when you have friends in this business? Because even now today, you know, there are the pockets of producers at big companies and and people in the business that are pretty big fans of mine, regardless of all that, yes, there are those that have bought in like, oh, that guy, no, no way. I have my fans, you know, all in it's been a really positive thing. And I'm sort of glad I mean, you learn from your mistakes more. I mean, it preach such so many lessons about all that, especially in having to think about it and being confronted with it and having it haunt me over the years in this business and cost me you know, I got to sit back and go, what was the mistake I made? In the pinch of that moment? What should I have done? I was feeling this way why I need to be feeling this way and move forward. You know, so I learned a hell of a lot, I really wouldn't change a thing. You know, at the end of the day, I have had the wildest ride and yeah, maybe I have that reputation of, you know, the, the shining new talent that was in bam, you know, he's a maniac. But I think I've gotten a hell of an education in this business. Because of all that

Alex Ferrari 37:53
and then some and then some, so, so the Look, man, again, any of us put in that situation at that age? Look, look, and this is this is pre social media, bro, can you imagine if there was Facebook and Twitter, during that time, you would have been it would have been devante. I don't want anything that I was doing at that age out. I was I was probably I was probably a dick. You know, I know, there was relationships that were you know, destroyed because of of working on projects together and egos got involved and never spoke to them. Again, this happens. This is the business we're in. It is an ego driven, a lot of times ego driven, especially when you're young, especially when you're coming up, the ego is so powerful and so big. And I've talked to some really big guys in the business. And I realize the bigger they are, the egos seem to be more controlled more, they're more comfortable in their own skin. It's the new guys or the people who don't have experience in the in the battlefield that has that because like just talking to you here, man, you're much calmer than you were when you were 25

Troy Duffy 38:58
I'll tell you a fun little secret. Almost all of my friends got SOPA the people that were there with me and the people that love me, my real friends, both in the business and just you know, regular life. Sure. There have been times with all of them, this moment has occurred, you know, we got to speak out against this goddamn document. You know, it's like if people really got to know you and who you were, they wouldn't be they'd be seen as a big pile of shit.

Alex Ferrari 39:24
Yeah,

Troy Duffy 39:24
You know, and that's happened so many times and I've had to kind of talk them back from the ledge, you know, like this is I did this this is my fault is as bad as what you may think of what happened and it's unfair as it is. I did this, you know, it was the first real punch of ego control came when I understood that, that we're in control of our own things that were the ones that are responsible. Those two guys completely forgiven and understood. It was made it was made they they lashed out and did something to to hurt me because I had heard them and that's pretty much all there is to it and you know the and I don't think that one of the worst tragedies about it is they didn't get anything from it

Alex Ferrari 40:12
Really

Troy Duffy 40:13
No. But right now I mean I don't know any projects that these guys are on solid ground I got called Rocco called me up the other day and said one of them had just kind of totally left the business and retired from it years ago to so they didn't really get the made out with money but I know that it didn't make much money

Alex Ferrari 40:35
well no it's like a niche of like it's a niche of a niche of a niche of a documentary basically focused on filmmakers and that's not going to be you know $100 million doc

Troy Duffy 40:46
so they didn't I don't think that they benefited or had much success in terms of their their lives and careers from it and I certainly didn't benefit from it except in a sort of an inner way

Alex Ferrari 41:00
you I would argue I argue you got the most out of it sir because inner your inner peace sir. Important thing you're right i mean the growth that that has taught as he swings back a bottle No no, no the inner did look the look in no bullshit aside dude. Seriously, you have gotten to to evaluate what you did wrong. I look I wish I would have had not publicly but a documentary that would go back and show me all the idiot things I did like that whole thing with the gangster dude, my dp was telling me you should be filming this because this is more entertaining and more educational than any movie we will ever make. He told me this while we were there. Why did we film none of it? I wish we would have seen like what was going on? I wish we would have filmed that would have been the most amazing documentary ever about how to make them how not to make a movie it's the story right? That was the story but look man, but you have you had self realization and that is huge

Troy Duffy 42:00
worth its weight in gold. That's the important thing now you know, I I don't think that there's many situations that could arise in terms of me moving forward in my career and doing other films that are really that I can't ID and see coming from about 1000 miles away. And I it's not like I'm you know, Mr. super careful hide under a rock. No, no, I'm still paying myself. But I have I have definitely learned and I give it its due course and consideration right now, you know, at being a director is a very rare position to be in and it's it's a you're very blessed. If you get to direct a film I've been able to direct to I'm very blessed. And you know, knowing more and more about the business and moving forward. I'm going to you get stronger and stronger with this stuff. And it is the mistakes is the times you get kicked in the nuts if you're paying attention. That is the reason that you do is the reason that you get better with this. It is the reason you learn lessons and are able to move forward.

Alex Ferrari 43:06
And and look man, you've got shrapnel lots of it. I've got shrapnel lots of it. And that's

Troy Duffy 43:11
why report I got it off airport

Alex Ferrari 43:15
all the time. Because it but that's what makes us who we are. And I'm glad Look, I don't know if you've ever had this opportunity before. I'm sure you've been interviewed about this a million times. But I hope this is gonna get out there in a big way that really kind of set the record straight because I wanted to give you a platform to just go. This is what really effing happened, man.

Troy Duffy 43:35
Yeah, well, I guess you got the exclusive. I've never talked in depth like this about?

Alex Ferrari 43:42
Well, that's I'm humbled about that. And I hope this I hope this is a teaching tool, not only for you and me, sir, because I'm learning a lot from this as well. But for everyone listening because look, I started indie film hustle purely because of my experience in the business. And all this crap that I did my origin story, I was told when I wrote the book, I'm like, you guys want to know why I have this grizzled, like hard voice behind this mic all the time telling you guys that you're gonna get punched in the face in this business. I don't care who you are. It was because of that experience. And I'm trying every day to help filmmakers avoid those things. And I hope this interview in this conversation goes a long way by doing that. So I do appreciate you doing that brother,

Troy Duffy 44:24
though I appreciate the the platform to air it out a little bit. You know, I have not been I must have the most faithful fans in the world because I have not been good with social media or talking about any of this stuff. So it's good to kind of get it out there and I'm gonna be going on my own stuff and not right now. I'm about to make the biggest mistake of my career. Are you ready? Yes. I want to bear myself a new now. It's not just Yeah, he's the ideal deal and boom, he goes. It's now the new one. I am going to start getting into social media and

Alex Ferrari 45:00
gotta help us God help us all sir God help us all.

Troy Duffy 45:04
My fans are like, Listen, if you don't want to know what's going on Ask Troy. And this the whole thing is kind of that social media thing has kind of happened and I've been checked out on it, so I'm gonna start doing that. And half the reason is because you know, COVID This sucks. I got nothing to do, man. We're talking about that the other day too. Yeah, I've known for like dreaded it for years. I've known I had to do this and all those fans you know, they did they deserve a world of credit for kind of sticking with me and loving Boondock the way they do I don't know that there's many great films with that kind of shelf life, man. In fact, no

Alex Ferrari 45:40
I will tell you off air you and I could sit down and talk I could guide you a little bit on social media. I've been doing it for a little while as well so I can help you along those fine. Hey, I will I will help you sir. I will I will help you a little bit now. So now that that all's out of the way now let's talk about the redemption the the coming back up so you you get Boondocks back from from the band who shall not be named Voldemort. Let's call him Voldemort. If that's the Valdas theme, so you get your your script back eventually. And then you you get it released to tell the story of how it actually gets made.

Troy Duffy 46:15
Oh, man, yeah. Yeah, now you're hitting on some secrets that I've kept for 25 years. Good.

Alex Ferrari 46:21
Okay, cool.

Troy Duffy 46:22
Exclusive shit. I shouldn't say number two. Weird.

Alex Ferrari 46:30
Yeah.

Troy Duffy 46:32
The the. Alright, I'm not gonna give you all of it. But I'll give you a couple of

Alex Ferrari 46:37
as much as do as much or as little as you want.

Troy Duffy 46:40
When we came to blows, man, Harvey just disagreed on things and he's like, Alright, that's it. You're in turnaround. Now you know what it is? But for the for the viewers out there that don't that means Doug Harvey has say bought your script $350,000. JOHN, I paid a couple of your producers. JOHN, maybe one location, Scott, say he's in it a million bucks. What turnaround is, is that you put it like a yard sale, you put it back out for sale, you know the script that was highly desirable by the industry. And you try to recoup some of your money. But the most anyone gets in a turnaround situation is 50% after investment. So Harvey puts it in turnaround. Lo and behold, his other company wants to do it. A new a new company, new guy. And he charges 100% in a turnaround situation. I was friends at the time mall with a guy named Mario Rifkin, who was the president of William Morris and a friend. I had to tell you about going up to this house one day was unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 47:50
I'm sure was

Troy Duffy 47:51
about a young man's ego sore. And I was like, This guy had guard dogs that responded to German. It was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 47:58
It was like two lines. It was like the opening of two lines. Got it? Alright,

Troy Duffy 48:01
so he was like, you know, I really looked up to Arnold and he gets super pissed. You know, like Harvey Weinstein will not be treating our clients like this. So he puts retel this whole company on Red Alert Boondock Saints gets made right now find somebody to pay the 100% or we chop Harvey down some way but this movie gets made and this young writer director gets out there. Wow. Because when you're putting turn around by the way, that's death. You're you're somebody you're nigh on now the black sheep of Miramax, no one wants to touch me. You know certain things are already known about me in the industry this sort of yay Troy thing is going downhill at this point and this couldn't have happened at worst times and first real tragedy that I absorbed in the business right so on comes a one of my favorite human beings in the world, Cassie and Ellis who was the president of film financing over there. He's actually carrying with his brother Men in Tights.

Alex Ferrari 49:02
Well, Princess, I mean Princess Bride saw but but you chose Men in Tights. That's fine. I mean, carry carries me hear me. He's done a couple things. I'm just saying.

Troy Duffy 49:16
So Kassian was a piece about the greatest guy in the world. So so he finds you know this, the company will come in, they're gonna pay the 100% turnaround situation. And it's the first time Rifkin said you know I'm all my years in this business. I've never seen this happen and clearly, Harvey does not want this movie being made for obvious reasons, not because I want to becoming successful and you know, he's looking right and writing you off as a mistake and trying to make everyone forget that this even happened. CUT TO GET THE THING made. I get a bottle of champagne note from Harvey on the first day of principle, which I completely mistake as genuine. But it was just a gangster chapter

Alex Ferrari 50:00
was to screw you up to screw you up on your day one. Yeah, that's all it was.

Troy Duffy 50:04
Yeah, I was like the gangster walking you too. So he does a good job. We're like him on the sand. Well,

Alex Ferrari 50:09
here's the fish.

Troy Duffy 50:11
But don't read into it don't get to, you know, get the movie made. And yeah, you know, we're gonna spare you some of the other stories, but there was there was there was some quite obvious things that happened once I tried to get my little movie out there where roadblocks were, you know, inexplicably being thrown up in front of this film. And I had people from this industry calling me telling me that they had been straight up intimidated either by him personally, or people representatives for from his company, you know, and so there was this campaign to then when the movie got made it to end to end and have no one see it. Strangely enough, though, and here's the fucked up part of this. Hidden how he wasn't able to study when you make a movie like that, that the kids are gonna find it's it's gonna happen no matter what. The thing that really screwed us at the time was a whole nother deal. It was caught off two weeks before we were we were having our screenings for the industry. And that's where you take your little movie, you go to the big lot, Sony, Paramount Fox, we went to all of them. And you have screenings for all them and their buyers and all buyers from all over the place. And so there's a you got Pat, I was we were having pack screenings, three 400 people, almost no one was leaving, which always happens on screen. But you're basically asking somebody don't buy my film, and distribute it through your, your engine, your network. And Columbine happened. And I don't know if you remember right. There, they're like it was on cue. We're having screenings that are off the charts, and people are loving it. And then coming forward, we were reading the kind of writing in the sand find this one. This one buyer comes up to us and says, you know, congratulations, highly competent. Congratulations, you made a great movie. And he very, very nice about it. So you've been you've been blacklisted from us screens. Nobody is going to theatrically released this movie, so you got to put it out. Yeah. And that was just like don't do it. You know, we were all talking about dizzy of trying to find your answer on the bottom of a beer glass. We just everybody I will hard how hard we work and this thing that had nothing to do with us. But all the all the touchstones in it. But people in trench coats did this, I decided it wasn't just two young men that did the violence. I had two young men. And it was just all the parallels were ridiculous. And it was exactly what they were stopping production on and pulling out of theaters right there at Clinton landed here and had a whole talk with the industry. And they they reacted that way. They just stopped production on anything with violence in it right now, especially in the US look youthful violence pull anything with violence out of theaters. They even started with video games, and I was right there. With my little film gone. Please help me. You know, and we just got screwed. But fun story. boondock was about to touch the public for the first time, right? And I was in the darkest depression ever because I'm like, it doesn't matter. Now. There's no theatrical release, there's no way this film is going to be successful. So I met this guy, Dean Wilson, who remained one of my dearest friends and contacts in this business until his death a couple years ago. Dean was the CFO of blockbuster. And they had 7500 store though that was the during the biggest they were huge. They were home video for every studio. And they got a lot of power. So I take him down it was like actually is me and Flannery. And a couple I think maybe even norm was there. We take him down to photochem and arrange a screening for him to see the film. I remember I'd already seen it a million times. I fell asleep in the only thing that I had bought with my newfound riches, which was a 68 Chevelle fire engine red with tinted windows bad ass car. I get knock on the window. And here's this excited guy, Dean Wilson, right. And he's like, Oh my God, that's great. It goes we're gonna we're gonna release this and make a deal for you to have a big blockbuster exclusive. I didn't know what that was at the time. But what they were doing. What they were doing was taking smaller films that they felt should have been theatrical released or that they saw some thought would really touch their their Republic and release them in blockbuster stores like they were big films. Instead of two copies per store. There was 60 or 120 shutting the store so boondock was released on video as if it was some big theatrical success. And I remember walking through the local my local blockbusters talking to just seeing shelves and shelves of boondock Saints you know at that time videotapes it was VHS at first and this was right during the crossover a DVD was beginning so I was like alright, makes it suitable they made the deal right. And come to find out later on that it was blockbusters highest grossing straight to video hit in their history now something I always kidded Dean about was he had the blockbuster had the he had the opportunity to buy the home video rights for 150 grand slightly after he saw how well it was doing and made some ridiculous amount in six months like like a million bucks

Alex Ferrari 55:57
you mean as a as a part as part of the deal and it's like it was a it was a

Troy Duffy 56:01
we're gonna take a variable the deal was we're gonna do an exclusive Blockbuster Video window we'll pay you this much and share this much of the profits with you and they were like all right, you want the video all the video rights to so you can sell all VHS not just rental deal but like you can sell all the VHS and DVDs that are going to come out because of this for 150 grand if he had taken that deal I remember just lightened into him once we're at dinner, he took me to dinner make surely icon. It was the best, the best. And I was like you got you guys had the opportunity to buy that for 150 grand in front Charlie icon. I went, you would have made $150 million. If you had done that that. And the By the way, by that time the numbers were in. So that wasn't a joke. And Dean was like thanks, Charlie icon Gilgo most embarrassing goddamn thing.

Alex Ferrari 56:58
It's kind of like, it's like when it's my

Troy Duffy 57:00
What do you want to see it if it wasn't for this guy? So I like modem everything.

Alex Ferrari 57:04
Right? It's kind of like when Fox gives Lucas the sequel rights and the merchandising rights for Star Wars. Yes. Similar times people

Troy Duffy 57:11
have compared me to George Lucas there. But let me show you how not. George Lucas was smart. Right? Just angry. At one point, I want the merchandising rights and they're like, you're making a $6 million film, who do you think's gonna buy a T shirt? It was the easiest thing in the world to shut me up and give me the merchandising rights. And that ended up being shaving my bacon and a lot of ways.

Alex Ferrari 57:35
Yeah, so the movie comes out. It's a huge success. Everybody sees it. Because it's, and for people who don't understand blockbuster in 2001 2000 to 2003 in that world, they were at the height of their of their

Troy Duffy 57:49
It was 2000 it was released to blockbuster. And you're right, it became a huge hit. Huge, apparent. Apparently, no one noticed, except the people the blockbuster and the fans. When a movie does that kind of business, you know, just think about a company owing on 10 other movies that maybe did not do. Didn't even recruit. There's all kinds of problems that can happen. And we got into this area where, you know, from from the industry, what we were being told was, it's not a success. You know, nothing, you got nothing we got a guy got a contract says I'm owed money here is No, it didn't do well. And I remember going to a gas station one day and seeing my first kid with fucking tattoos for my movie. And I just, you know, I'm looking and say anything to them, and they start noticing in public, you know, I'm at bars, and suddenly people will pop off lines from my movies while they're screwing around with each other at a pool table. So it was hard for me to believe that it wasn't doing well when I was seeing it in my own life just randomly, you know, so we ended up cut two years later had a big lawsuit settled that all out got rights and went forward with that which we may have to we may have to piece this into two interviews took my job to me But yeah, it became extremely successful.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
But so in in other words Hollywood accounting took over is what you're saying.

Troy Duffy 59:21
In a lot of ways there's a lot I can't say because it's fair enough.

Alex Ferrari 59:24
Fair enough.

Troy Duffy 59:25
But yeah, you know the the old adage of You must have heard to you know if you get fucked on your first one.

Yeah, yeah, you're never gonna make money in your first one. That's just just it's Yeah, it's the sequel that's where

the bias yeah and that yeah yeah, I happen to

Alex Ferrari 59:43
and to and to be fair George as well on the first one financially didn't do well on the movie that that merchandise he did okay. But the the movie didn't do well but Empire he that's where he started really making his money. So same thing. So you're so you go through this process, the movie gets out. You get the rights back. Now you own and control the sequel rights to boondock. Right? At this point we had the right back.

Troy Duffy 1:00:07
Yeah, we got the right because, you know, the the the sequel rights were wrapped into this company and this lawsuit around so once that was settled, we got our sequel rights and we were able to do too and within 48 hours of the conclusion of that of those legal troubles, we had a deal for two on the table with some

Alex Ferrari 1:00:29
and and then and then that when I remember reading, because I kept I couldn't follow you over the years I was like what happened to what happened to Troy What happened? So I'd always like read whatever was out and some some things on the sequel came out. I was reading like, how'd he do? What's going on? And from what I understood, and please correct me if I'm wrong to the merchandising rights. That's it's like George says, The money's in the lunchboxes, idiots.

Troy Duffy 1:00:56
Yeah, yeah. did well, and they still is, you know, but the it's that, you know, with with, with the sequel, yeah, that's made a metric ton of money and done very, very well and continues to, you know, call a cult cult classic is about the coolest, two words in film. And, you know, I wasn't the first to say that there was a whole bunch of other people that did. And that's what I'm, that's what I've done. And I'm extremely grateful to all those long suffering fans, because I mean, if you think about it, they're going to be waiting 10 years between one and two and another 10 between two and three.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:37
Yeah. Sucks. But if you're like the Kubrick of indie, of indie films, like he does one movie every 10 years. It's fantastic.

Troy Duffy 1:01:45
Yeah Yeah. I'm Mike Lucas and Cobra, just not half as talented

Alex Ferrari 1:01:51
or well, exactly. It's just like them, but completely different. So I have to ask you, though, the secret comes out, you didn't do very well, with that you're doing well with merchandising? What is the biggest lesson you learn man in this entire boondock? journey? Like, what was that thing that you just like? Fuck.

Troy Duffy 1:02:16
You know, I think it's what I said before, that this business is all about relationships, I may have been able to sustain some of the more controversial things that happened if I hadn't maintained my relationships properly, you know, with agents, with producers, and with actors. And also, people if you're learning from your mistakes, and right there, right after you make them don't take 20 years to figure something out, like I did learn, right? You have to walk out of the room say screwed up. How did I do it? What did I do, why don't do it again, here's the right thing to do. So learning from your mistakes, and keeping that black book going, would be the two essential pieces of advice. But really, if you boil that down, it's just growing up and maturing a level of maturity, and what a director just needs to be. And this is the part that I didn't need to learn and didn't make many mistakes, as a director needs to be somebody that people trust on set. This guy knows what he's doing and that they'll they will follow you to the ends of the earth, they will go into meal penalties, they won't call their unions and bitch about things, you know, they'll they will follow you and really, really give you 110% and when you're doing a movie that you truly believe in. That is the most important thing having that cast and crew go now this surrounds you and protect you and do you know execute perfectly. And with big, fat, beautiful hearts and put them they're all into it? That is the part that I had down. Yeah, that's why I think in a lot of ways boondock went so well. You know Boondock was the turned out the way it was this this film with a shelf life of fucking uranium.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:19
That's a great line. You should be right. You should be a writer, sir.

Troy Duffy 1:04:23
Today, even today, like when I'm almost forced, is he like people? What do you do? filmmaker? Well, I fell. I just did boondock Saints right? You get this? I've seen this so many times with my friends. They'll say like a movie. They did something. Oh yeah, that's great. I saw it was wonderful. This is what you get. Sometimes when you say you did Boondock Saints all of a sudden. They don't believe you. They did put you through a test to say the prayer, you know the fucking and they repeat it right to you. And they're like, oh my god. Oh my god. bleep. Joey. Joey. Never gonna fucking believe that. It's just like it's a whole different It's a whole different thing with boondock people have taken this one. So personally, it makes my heart sore every time you know, it's get the best goddamn fans ever. There was just one article that a critic wrote. And it was, I think it was entitled something like don't ever criticize boondock saints in a bar. A bunch of fans surrounded him and started reciting the prayer.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:24
Like a cult, like a cult.

Troy Duffy 1:05:26
It was a Randy fucking white man. And when I remember being with Rocco, when we we heard he's the one that found the article sent it to me, and he was just laughing his ass off. He's like, there's gonna be a way to, you know, send them off. Did you? Do we have like an assassination squad? Anyway, that fucks with us? Can we just send them there to deal with it? Oh, wow

Alex Ferrari 1:05:51
it's you know, and it's so fascinating, man, because boondock has this kind of lore about it. And you're absolutely right, out of all the films that came out in the 90s and early 2000s. Let's say that because you're part of that that group of, of crop of filmmakers from 1989 to 90 to 2001 2002. That kind of crew. There aren't in my understanding any films in that time period that have the level of fandom that you know, because look, we all know El Mariachi, well, clerks, I would argue clerks, but no one's beating anybody up over clerks. You know, they're not fighting over. You know, they're not. They're not like, what did you say? What did you say about to start that that star what like, it doesn't happen? But there's a different level of passion I feel with boondock and I've seen it dude, I've seen I've seen the tats. I've seen all all of that dude, it's like the it is it is going because deep and wet. What do you think that is? Do I mean, I know the story is really, you know, there's a religious, almost a religion aspect to it almost.

Troy Duffy 1:06:54
I would boil it down to two things, but it's almost to the you can do it to each individual, you know, and ask him that question, you might get a different answer, but I think it comes down to two things. brotherhood, people love movies about brothers and people have brothers and sisters blood. See Connor and Murphy shoot through a brick wall to save each other or back each other or kill somebody or survive together as blood and family that plays into it. Also, you know, the best friend aspect of it. We've all the Rocco's almost like that. That stereotypical friend everybody had in high school was like a puppy dog down for anything loyal as hell, even though he couldn't fight if you got in a fight. He was gonna jump in and get us ask him. Alright, so everybody had that the other part of it, I think, is just the slight adjustment on a theme. We all had seen vigilante movies in the superhero themed movies forever. But in terms of the vigilante movies, we know it's almost like you need to have personally offended me that I'm going to come after you or a group of people. I'm going to mow them down one by one because you killed my family. Batman, right? Our little our little, you know, like, yeah, like, like, it's Charlie Bronson stuff.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:09
Yeah, Punisher, Charlie Bronson, Batman and all those guys. Yeah,

Troy Duffy 1:08:13
the adjustment that I made was you don't need to have personally offended Conner and Murphy. They're killing you. Because you're a bad person. And that's it. But they're doing it in this way where there's belief and faith wrapped into it. Right. So I believe that young people that were watching that at a time who may have you know, I think that young people watching at that time saw that aspect of it. These are two boys following their moral code, you can believe they're just badass vigilantes. Irish guy is fucking killing it, or you can believe they were sent by God, it doesn't really matter. What they're doing essentially is protecting us protecting society. And I think that was that one little adjustment that we hadn't seen before that really got into people because if you think about it, you know, if you and your friend or you and your brother we're going to do a similar thing you would do exactly what if you know what we're going to kill the bad people the true threats to our community, we're going to kill them what you would do is you go get guns trying to shoot him in the head and get away with it not get caught. That's what we do. So it seemed also there was just a kind of reasonableness and logic to it that of course, you know, this would this would happen if it so I think that those are like, in a very general wide broad sense. Those were one of the reasons the was a probably a good part of the reason why boondock struck a chord so deeply with people but I think if you ask those people, you'll get a different you'll get a different fucking thing from each

Alex Ferrari 1:09:42
shirt. It's movies are always something to everybody else. But I was just curious what you thought because there is there's something visceral in it. There's there's no question. There's something very visceral in the reaction that people have to that film. Either you love it or you hate it. There is generally not a gray with with boondock it's, it's generally like a It's okay. No, no You'd love it or you hate it. It's funny.

Troy Duffy 1:10:01
I know it's really fun too because that frustrated the critic. We were critically just smashed to pieces. Fans just loved it. So, critics who would you know, do I even think I saw Kurt Loder say something about this on an MTV

Alex Ferrari 1:10:17
going back going back

Troy Duffy 1:10:19
set and they just couldn't be like, why do you all love this movie so much? I'm a critic. And I know what good moviemaking is. And that sucks. Why does that look like it? Oh, well, you know, and it was like, okay, that happens so many times, you know? Like, it became a joke for all of us afterwards. It's like, hey, so the guy love hated us. And right.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:42
Now, when you were doing when you were going back on that, I'm gonna want to go back real quick to the first day on set for for boondock. The first one, you're you first time you directing? Right first time you're on set. You've gone through hell. And back to get I mean, more than most filmmakers, because making any movie is held at almost any level, but you really have a documented journey of hell and back. So you're there on your first day, dude, and you're working with you know, amazing actors. How do you feel man? How do you like take it on? Are you just like, relieved to get going? Are you nervous? Like, what is it

Troy Duffy 1:11:17
anxious to get going anxious to get going? I by that point, I had grown up with a sort of East Coast mentality in terms of you can go out there you put in your day's work hard. You earn your money, you know, right, right. Oh, I was gonna I was gonna earn this, I realized how much time and money we had, I was keeping my eye on the ball. And what I did was just get through that day as hard as possible. And that first day is where I started to earn the faith of my cast and crew. You know, I remember this one time going up, and I was going on set, I was stopped by a PA and told that I couldn't come out. He had no idea who I was, you know, I would have overalls on I didn't blame the kid. I didn't you he wouldn't have known. But once we got you know, once we had a nice funny, ha ha, got our coffees in ice, it was like, Get to work. Right? Right, I realized, you know, just from you just feeling maybe from like, his sports and plan and things like hockey and stuff and how you can deal with actors. It's almost like a coach deals with players in a lot of ways. But just know you're each individual player, guy like Defoe, he likes to get inside of a room and feel the spatial pneus of a walk around mumbles lines now, but always kind of clear everybody out, give him some time. And then we were able to riff and this is a guy you approach you know, you're about to get something out of him, that's going to make what you had on the page way better. You know, what, you know, maybe when I'm dealing with the brothers, sometimes it's just like a coach psyching you up for the big game. That's what they need in the moment. So you know, I guess I'll probably go into that on my upcoming disastrous social media, videos and telling those stories, but it's you when an actor walks off feeling like they just got something good, they just do a great job. They're walking on air, they just simply begin to trust you and everything goes goes smooth from there. And when, you know, guys that have been like, you're you say your key grip, and this business has been in the business forever. And the guy is a legend ours was and he knows great directors and you know, at the bar that night after day one, if he's going, Hey, I just signed off on you with everyone. You know that you're you're getting there, you know. And then it just started to ramp up. By the time we were done shooting, nobody wanted to go home. Everybody wanted this film to continually shoot

Alex Ferrari 1:13:49
like a series.

Troy Duffy 1:13:52
TV DVD series, screw the movie, right? All here in shooting because we're all having such a fun time. And all the way from an actor to wardrobe people to hair people to food people. They all saw almost instant gratification for their work right there on set because they were invested in the characters and they were inventing this new guy, David della Rocco. They didn't know who he was. And the wardrobe ladies cried off, just off set when they watched his death scene. And I remember coming by I'm like, Whoa, what's going on? I didn't realize what was going on. They're like, no, it's fine. That's fine. And they were actually hurt that he was fake dying on screen. You know? That was one of those moments where you're like, whew, what, what the fuck is happening here? What do I have here? Cuz that doesn't happen, you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:14:45
No, it doesn't.

Troy Duffy 1:14:46
And a lot of other things like that. There's so many stories that I have to share with the fans who have been waiting along.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:52
So I got to ask you though, man, I think you kind of touched upon this earlier man that you know, you obviously are an accomplished filmmaker. You're obviously a good storyteller and a good director you've made to, you know, like almost legendary mythical movies that people just adore who've done big business. Why haven't there been other opportunities? Why haven't there been other projects? Are you Where are you still leaning? Is it still a spillover from the Harvey blacklist bullshit? Or is it just is it the doc I'm just kidding

Troy Duffy 1:15:24
everybody's all upset about what I did to Harvey No.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:29
Poor man,

Troy Duffy 1:15:30
not porn porn like no, it's it's it's it's definitely spelt documentary still haunts and I think that was kind of looked at as I let I let I made the cardinal sin of letting them backstage and airing Hollywood laundry, when it wasn't really me. I think that's also a lot of misunderstanding. You know, oh, my God, that maniac. What's happened is he all right is even doing anything. And but like I said, there are my pockets of fan. So yeah, this whole thing has affected me, it has not necessarily put me in the best light at, say, I am not popular with the Chicago Police Department. or places where I'm not popular, you know, they don't want me around them or the you know, their projects are there. And then there are other places where there are guys that were turned fan, you know, right out of college that are now running some big shit. And they're like, Duffy, get over here. And, you know, so it's, it's gone up and down, I'm going to try and you know, turn myself into a movie making machine. Over the next bunch of years, I feel I've accumulated enough knowledge and experience in this business, to really be a value we're going to start out, you know, hopefully with a part three, which we can talk about in a minute. But in terms of other projects, yeah, I have been writing my ass off with a whole bunch of stuff, too. I'd like to mention in particular, one we're trying to put together during this COVID this COVID time because there's a there's an opportunity, potentially in Australia, one of my dear friends and producers something we we did somebody we already pulled one off during COVID. I didn't even tell you about a guest house. Boom. Pauly Shore boy, Pauly Shore. I wrote it with my my friend, Sean Bishop and Sam macaroni who directed it. And we were the one comedy in America on item number seven on iTunes. It's again, it's like this thing that happens quiet. You know, if all this hadn't been happening, you know.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:31
I was like, I can't I can't walk the streets in Bulgaria. I can't.

Troy Duffy 1:17:35
I mean, I'm begging Japan.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:38
Huge, huge Japan. I can't walk the streets of Japan.

Troy Duffy 1:17:42
So it was the Sony movie. We did that. And it was really good polished Paul, I'm really proud of Paulie. He really killed it. It's sort of a comeback performance. We've seen Paulie in a while. And he's just amazing. Well, you told me about like, essentially, it's about a guy living in a guesthouse and his couple buys the house tries to get him out and he won't leave. So it's a War of the Roses. But we did it. Sam was a great director. It was wonderful producing experience for me. But my my guy, Scott Clayton helped finance that and he's out to Australia. And the reason we even knew each other was because of this other script I've written called the blood spoon Council. Now what that script is essentially about a group of serial killers of hunters of serial killers. Led by a mastermind profiler. One they call a one percenter profiler that goes out into the world identifies snatches, execute serial killers and delivers them to the doorstep of the FBI. And so the FBI is covertly looking for them and can't let the fact that they are out there murdering US citizens that don't get out because it would be way too bad. Because once people found out that they were serial killers, they might be like, just like boondock are they doing your job for you?

Alex Ferrari 1:19:02
And then and now you have the FBI pissed off

Troy Duffy 1:19:03
at you as well, me strangely dark thing. And I've put in about two years of research and I put pen to paper on it with my buddy Chris Lasseter, who helped me on the in the writing duties with it. But as soon as it hit this wonderful company called the grindstone over Lionsgate, you know, they were like, get in here. Turns out again, these were fans of mine. These guys had gone through other companies. And while boondock was happening, they were keeping an eye on it. They were saying things like we got to get a movie with this guy back in the day. So and when I got in there, I realized that he told you the they give you these stories. This is your this is how your film affected me when I was a young guy who got in college. One of them was already in the business over at some huge company that I've escapes me now but the other one was this, you know, they all have their their their their Duffy story and they all throw them on me. I was like, This is great. And then they were like, we read the script. And oh my god, and they put me right on the conference call with Clayton. Here's the guy money guy, we want to get moving on this right away. Now this was, this is how, you know, hard these things are to put together, you think you'd have a well heeled company like that willing to pick up the domestic REITs for however many million under finance, you're coming in from all the rest of it that they've worked with on a bunch of other movies, you think this is gonna get done quickly, it doesn't, you know, until all the lines that are dotted are signed, you got nothing. But here we all made the college try. And now we're trying again during COVID because there's a potential opportunity in Australia. But we're trying to get that one off the ground. That's one of those, you know, you must have it to like that project your your little

Alex Ferrari 1:20:44
Oh, I've got a couple.

Troy Duffy 1:20:46
Yeah, I just play spit, shine it every now and then pull it out, update it when it needs to be. And and now we've got some opportunity to potentially pull one off. Because really, the story is a cat and mouse game between the mind profiler for the council. And this kid that the FBI brings in was also a one percenter who doesn't really like the idea of what these guys are doing, but are so curious about this guy, you know, who's not going to be like, you know, he's like, you know, these guys pulled down seven serial killers in the last five years. You guys get like, what,

Alex Ferrari 1:21:22
one decade

Troy Duffy 1:21:25
and he has to virtually walk through the front door, you know, you want you really want to catch these guys kind of thing, you know, so it's really, really awesome. To me, you know, one of the one of the more well researched and exciting projects as long as we can find people that can deal with the darkness because, you know, you don't do you don't do Silence of the Lambs. You know, without Hannibal Lecter. And you don't, you don't give clerys a dog to make her more sympathetic. You got it, you got to go there with with stuff like that. And these days, you know, there's kind of a real the real violence and the real darkness they're made with. They're kind of pulling back on that now. And I think it's affecting storytelling in the industry. And I fucking hate it.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:09
Yeah, it's, it's, well, the whole thing with COVID. Man, that's the other thing I want to tell it. Well, first of all, by the way, I can't wait to see that movie. dynasty that that sounds absolutely remarkable. And I'm so I'm so glad that there are these fans of people that have gone through the system and grew up with you. It's like, it sounds like we're old farts you know, it's like, it's like, like I you know, when I was a kid, you're moving really did. I look at a much, much, much smaller level, I get it with a film I did in 2005 that people constantly come back to me. I'm like, Oh, I bought that movie. It was a short film. It was a short film. So short film called a short film called broken. But what I did in that movie in that little DVD, I threw three and a half hours of how to make a movie with a dv x 100 a final cup when nobody had any information about making movies. If you remember 2005 I don't know YouTube, there was no information. Yeah, yeah. And that that little movie people. I constantly get emails about that. And it's still when I meet people at our events or something like Dude, and they'll bring out the original DVD. I'm like, oh, wow, we got so I got a much, much, much smaller level than you do. I still get that kind of stuff, too. And it's just like, go ahead

Troy Duffy 1:23:20
it's cool that you had that trying to help out vibe. I mean, you probably were like, Hey, this is how to do it, guys. You know?

Alex Ferrari 1:23:26
Yeah,

Troy Duffy 1:23:26
I'm having that that instinct now. That's exactly what I'm gonna be going and doing. I did it guys. This is how you can do it. And that's like a that's like during this COVID time, man, I I look at it like that. Depression is probably the big culprit here. You know, you're seeing murders go up. Or you're seeing the suicides through the roof. Right depression is the culprit. And I've noticed, you know, even if you don't think you're having it, I've noticed like I have like different reactions to things and I wouldn't have normally you know, or I'm like experimenting, I'll be like, you know, what would happen if I ate nothing but carrots for three days? Would that fucking do it? You know? And I did. Essentially you want meat so bad. human being

Alex Ferrari 1:24:16
you know those you know what? Scorsese Scorsese made an iPhone short film quarantine short film. During like the height of the quarantine like after was like a month or two like when the world was shut like literally shut down. Like when nothing was moving. He shot whatever and it was like this weird. Like, you know, he's projecting stuff on his face. And it's like this whole weird like, it's basically if Scorsese made a quarantine film on his iPhone, whatever is in your head. That's what he shot.

Troy Duffy 1:24:44
Artists should not be left alone to their own devices. We are complete idiots who can't take

Alex Ferrari 1:24:52
it's insanity.

Troy Duffy 1:24:54
Even today, I I clicked on YouTube and typed in uplifting videos.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:03
Because it's a look, there's been some Look, there's been so much this last year has been horrible for the world. It's been devastating for the world, the psychological and I've been telling this to people for for a while now and I've said it on the show a bunch of times, there is going to be a hangover, a COVID hangover, that that society is going to have, not only in the world, but like for films like I don't know when I'm going to be able to go back to a movie theater and truly feel comfortable in a group environment or go to a film festival and just like, be like Sundance, like be in Sunday. Like I can't even I can't even think about handshakes. Hey, Chase me from the shit. Like handshakes. Like he. I don't even know if I'll ever handshake somebody again. I think the elbow thing is the closest I'm gonna do for a while. It's crazy. But there is it's it's really a serious thing that's happening to humans and us as artists. We're bouncing off the damn walls in here.

Troy Duffy 1:26:00
I know dude, I had the funniest interaction. If you had been with me it would have you to just laugh your ass off. We're gonna staples. I'm gonna save the story all of it but I had a reaction you know those guys that you know, staples are just huge. They're gigantic warehouse. I go in there. And maybe two employees. There's there's two other there's two other customers walking around a stupid mascot, right? I hate I hate this goddamn thing. And I have to buy is is a Velcro and rubber bands. The only reason I'm there? Sure you see one of these guys in like a supermarket. They're like, hey, yeah, what did he say? There was a dude being so it was bouncing off the walls. Oh my god, I did something that I'm going to preserve. But Fair enough, not I would have reacted in any normal situation. You know, I realized walking out of there that something's something's kind of wrong here. You know, I'm not reacting the way I normally would. And as a director, you have to have been in that position where he's going wrong, the whole world is coming down and you have to become you can't look for who made the mistake and try and get them you can't take you have to take all the blame yourself and just keep pushing it forward. Always been good at that. But this you know, the there's a part of maybe my personal depression that offends that very core area of mine. And I am rare. I find myself not reacting in similar ways that i i i don't know myself anymore, just a little bit here and there and send you those cues. Like just like little lightning bolts.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:48
Yeah.

Troy Duffy 1:27:49
Well, you don't do that you don't do it may have been funny. You know, I may have been fun to do. But you don't do that you don't act like that. You are the You are the sort of rock of calm in the middle of that stuff. And now it just doesn't take too much doesn't take too much to rile you, or me anyway, just speaking for myself. But I really wish you know that. Maybe that's what we can do with indie hustle Academy. Yeah, I should get a bunch of artists together to talk about their depression during this and why and how, man with a mom even combat it, you know, I have my little techniques and they work most of the time. But it's nobody's talking about it, bro.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:31
I've been I've been lucky enough because I I'm constantly talking to people interviewing people talking all the time to people like yourself and constantly. During this entire time. I've had human interaction and I'm home with my family and stuff. But I've had human interaction and I can talk things out. But I can't imagine just being locked up. Like I can't just watch the days of me sitting down and watching 10 hours of movies. I can't I can't do that anymore.

Troy Duffy 1:28:54
I know. And even when even when you go out like I'm coming to you from a man cave and in Old Town, Pasadena, right? One of my favorite spots on earth. And when you walk around here, and there's just nobody it's a ghost town. You know, you it's a ghost town and all the businesses are shut down. There's they're starting to open up now. But like I had a couple of months ago, I had the experience of jogging right down the main strip. I may have seen four people the whole time. I get busted by a cop for jaywalking,

Alex Ferrari 1:29:28
because he's got nothing else better to do with his life.

Troy Duffy 1:29:31
Zero. You could hear the tumbleweeds in the background. This guy was writing me the ticket. I was almost like really, really? This This seems like a good idea to you. There is no one around here. There's no there was no cars to because it was really early in the morning. You know? And I was just super like, you know what, what,

Alex Ferrari 1:29:54
what do you doing?

Troy Duffy 1:29:55
How is this affecting cops. Like I can't give tickets anymore. Cuz there's nobody to give tickets to. Yeah, there's a guy right there. What is it? I'm gonna get back to being an officer. Excuse me, sir.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:08
I was a good Jim Carrey. That was a very good Jim Carrey, excuse me,

Troy Duffy 1:30:11
the planet is blue.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:15
I would like to ask you a few questions. So, first of all, I want to thank you so much for being so brutally honest, raw, setting this record straight on everything that's happened to you and your career and where you're going, which is a question. I know a lot of people who are your fans want to know, like, when's Boondock Boondock Saints three, once that happened?

Troy Duffy 1:30:41
I want to say about one thing first, okay. Like if you include this quick project, there's always kind of writing writing projects on the, you know, on the horizon, one of the nice things to kind of keep you going, and we're trying to do this really cool one right now I remember that I this of there's a producer named Daniel McNichol and Scott Raleigh, they're out of this place called glacia. films and in hotlanta, they, again, producers that were fans, you know, can you take a look at this script, and it was a script called Glastonbury about Christ. There's a legend basically a legend that said, Joseph, his uncle Joseph era mithya, took him to Great Britain to this place called Glastonbury when he was in his teens, because of Christ was there, all this kind of evidence in the local area for it. And the story is based on this legend, so it was extremely well researched, I read it, I liked it. And then they basically say, you know, we are in a bit of a pickle here, because we need to bust this into a trilogy, we want to do more of a sort of Lord of the Rings trilogy. And funny thing, I had always had this kind of thing that question you have in your mind what happened after Christ died? rose from the dead. What happened then? Because all those biblical all stars, were still alive. All the apostles, but of course, Joseph farmer Thea has, has an uncle, Mary Magdalene, everybody was still there. What did they do?

Alex Ferrari 1:32:25
Did they Netflix and chill?

Troy Duffy 1:32:30
had this idea about, you know, a sort of historical fantasy story about Christ's All Stars going out into the world after he was gone. And they got this cup, which ends up being the most supernatural thing on earth, that can change the tides of war and men in nations. So I just kind of put it right over this idea and said, Look, here's how we go big, you know, without going to fucking you know, wizards and dragons. It's something that people are tangible that we'll have, you know, that if we move out into the world with Christ, all stars, and they've got the Holy Grail. And it starts showing itself and they realize that they're seeing these very powerful things happening. And this thing is it can be everything from something that that saves you to a weapon, you know, very dangerous. How dare God put this power in our hands, the hands of men, you know, so I thought, great, I so we made the pitch during COVID. It was like right here, you know, zoom, zoom call patch, and they love it. So we're trying to make that deal right now. So that is a potentially upcoming project for Troy. Now you want to get to three

Alex Ferrari 1:33:48
dots. Yeah, Boondock three, see what happened. What's going what's going on with Boondocks, I'm sure there's a few people who want to know.

Troy Duffy 1:33:56
Oh, man, yeah. So all right. You know how it is in the business? I can't tell you what will happen tomorrow on that. No one, nothing's happening until all the dotted lines are signed. And this is where I wanted to maybe segue into what's happening with independent film, especially budget levels that and the types of independent film that boondock is, yeah, we can talk about that in a second. Let's pare that one off. But what's happening with boondock is that script, there was a long and winding road to crack the code on that script. And I knew that I had to kind of get it right. And so I brought in a couple of writers who have been friends of mine for 25 years. I know the brand very well. Once I got to a certain point, we all started bouncing it. And over the last year and a half, I'd say we got it and it is done and I'm talking so hot off the presses. It's days. We have to put it through one or two more stages creatively. I hear it all loud, I need to hear that read out loud. With all the accents and everything, I need to then kind of pop it through this whole final phase that I can tell my fans about later on. But it is at that phase. The the problem, the problem with getting it done lies in in the scheduling, and availability. And the fact that there's the COVID has virtually ended the production of all films almost on this level at any time at this time. Two years ago, there would have probably been hundreds in the industry, if not 1000s, privately, of independent films of that budget level being shot.

Alex Ferrari 1:35:41
And we say budget, you're talking in the five to 10 million.

Troy Duffy 1:35:44
Yeah i will say five to 15 times that they've done it. And so I I needed to get a solid foundation on that script, I needed to have it feel more towards a sort of deeper, darker boondock. One, we finally did, there's also this kind of odd timely thing that that happened, whether it's kind of has some things to do with what's happening now in our society. So it's even more tangible. I love what we got, I love this script, sausage, we're going to try to move out with that. Here's one of the major problems. Yeah, COVID has really, really hurt independent film. What what's happening now is that the one of the reason is very few things, even big budget are being shot and done, that the production has virtually stopped. And only these really big streamers can handle it is because of an insurance issue. I've been involved in these talks for a long time, and they cannot find anybody is going to write COVID insurance. Yeah, the people that are shooting right now usually are self insuring because they're wealthy enough and well heeled enough companies to financially self insure, which is your Amazon's your Netflix, your hulu's the ones who can afford to self insure. But here's what it means what it would mean for an independent filmmaker. If I've got say a million dollars to go make miles let's make it even numbers. $5 million to make my film. No, let's make it 10 Yeah, I'm not I'm so great with math. Give me my phone. Now. 25% of it goes away. Right? Right, right to COVID protection on set. They're doing these crazy things with pods, where whole all your say your wardrobe people will actually never be in a room with your grips and electric people who will never have any physical contact with the top level producers and director of video village over here. They are literally one person comes down with COVID in the pod they remove everybody put a whole new pot of people in there. It's extremely expensive. It is financially debilitating. Yeah. Especially to independent films that ends us right there for now. It'll be fixed, we'll come back. But there is no way you're already on a tight budget. And historically and you know, this is just as well as I do. You've been through this many time that every single cent plus hopefully a rebate if you caught we know how to make these things with the money that we're given. We know what's possible and not possible. I know I have to give up that great location for this good one because it saves me this money that I need for this. That's how we do independent films to have something that comes in from which you get zero benefit. That sucks up 25% of your budget just gone burned up in flames in this you and they're usually kind of privately financed or financed by companies that really like to get their money back.

Alex Ferrari 1:38:57
Right?

Troy Duffy 1:38:58
Those people are going to be those people right now are going to have 25 I got to pay 25% right out the door for this crap.

Alex Ferrari 1:39:05
And it doesn't put 25% more on the screen. You're at all

Troy Duffy 1:39:09
and you don't get it back. You don't get it back at all in any way. Unless the movie makes so much money I everybody's happy. Right You know, but they're not they're just not doing it. So that that really does plan you know, I another thing that can make you depressed and like the state of my business, this is what I do, man. The state of my business is is going down in flames right now. It really it's really hurting. It's really on its knees. And yeah, it scares it scares me. I'm sorry. I want to see it come back and bounce back with full vigor and I know it's gonna,

Alex Ferrari 1:39:45
well, it will it will you can't you can't keep something like independent film or creatives down or it just the business model has to change has to adjust that you know, you know as well as I do. Those budgets have been coming down, down, down, down, down, down down. studios are only doing 80 to $250 million movies. They're not even touching. And in the end, the five to 15 is almost no man's land. It's a rough, it's a rough number,

Troy Duffy 1:40:11
you know, rarely happening. I've heard of one film,

Alex Ferrari 1:40:15
right. But it's I mean, you're talking about a sequel to two very successful, almost legendary films. So it would make sense in that budget range to kind of make that next movie, but Dude, I agree with you. I think it will come back. It is it is brutal. I talked to filmmakers every day. I talked to the big guys, I talked to the little guys. I talked to everything in between. and everyone's having problems. Everyone, people that you you would you know, who've been on my show who've won Oscars. And they're like, yeah, I yeah, I can't, I can't get that. And then I you know, privately, I'd be like, so get a movie. You can't get a movie made. What is what is the chance of me or Troy getting our stuff off the ground? You know, like it's, it's, it's, it's but that's the reality of our business and everyone's having a problem. So now it's really honestly man, this is when you know, all that shrapnel is going to come in handy because guys like you and me have been able to survive at this at this world where the larger guys who've been more comfortable. You know, they're like, how much did you make you made the movie for 5 million? I don't even know how do you make a movie for a million? And then like my last movie I made for 3000 bones and and got released and got released and all this stuff. And people were like, their minds just frickin explode with that. It also it's just like it the hustle the hustle.

Troy Duffy 1:41:39
The hustle. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:41:41
the hustle if I may, if I may plug word.

Troy Duffy 1:41:45
Ferrari Ladies and gentlemen, you lucked out with your last name for what? Hi, yeah, it's Troy Porsche coming at you with his buddy Alex

Alex Ferrari 1:41:52
Duffy's. Duffy's Not bad. Not bad. No bad but

Troy Duffy 1:41:56
I get you because I mean, I know that we're going to come in sometimes you have to have this odd kind of fate. I know is as depressed as you can be right now as prices I have been in as an under the threat that our business is in I know that we guys like man you and all those filmmakers you other film it that we're gonna come back 10 times stronger.

Alex Ferrari 1:42:19
Yeah,

Troy Duffy 1:42:19
We all left. We're not even done learning lessons from this, but the ones we will are going to carry us forward and make us do probably better work. I mean, there's nothing that makes you want it and appreciate it more like having it snatched away from you. And you can't do it anymore. Yeah. As felt like, you know, I've always been shooting something I've always been doing something and then this

Alex Ferrari 1:42:42
And but i think is honestly do sometimes you need I think it's you can see this throughout history. You've got to go into the dark phase. I mean, the Dark Ages, what came out of the dark ages, the Renaissance. Yes, yeah. And that's and that's, like, artistic move up period in history and human history. So I'm feeling that hopefully something like that will happen for independent film. I mean, the 90s was an explosion of creativity and think I think the landscape is different. And there's so many things, different things than it was in the 90s. And when we were coming up, but there's something new that we can't even see yet. That's going to be big. And I think that there will be hope there will be light at the end of this tunnel. But it's all about now just look and I say this all the time. Dude, I say this all the time, and I think you will agree with me 100%. No matter who you are in this business, I don't care if you're Steven Spielberg, Troy Duffy, Alex, Ferrari, anybody, you're going to get just jacked in the face by this business all the time. It happens at every level at every stage of your career, more at the beginning, but you could also get it at the end. The difference is what I try to do with indie film, hustle. And with everything that I do is I warn you that the punches coming because a lot of people are just walking around like, Hey, man, boom, done out, you're and you're gone, they're gone. They're gone from the business because they're knocked out because they didn't even know was coming in. They're like, wait a minute, I didn't sign up for this yet. And they're out. I'm warning you that it's coming. And you're gonna get hit. And it's about getting hit as like rocky says is about getting hit and keep moving forward. And then occasionally, as these gray hairs start popping out, like you and I have these little ways, these little gray start popping out, you start to learn how to duck a bit. You learn how to, you still might get hit, but you learn how to take that hit a little differently. You learn how to move, and occasionally you get so good that you just see them comment, and you just start bobbing and weaving and you don't get nearly hit. But those punches will always keep people coming

Troy Duffy 1:44:40
people throwing the punches give up and stop trying to punch you. They're like that guy's just too good.

Alex Ferrari 1:44:47
It's like it's like it's like Muhammad Ali Elliot is at his at his top like you couldn't

Troy Duffy 1:44:53
find the mat anymore. We did at the beginning. You know, you know the glory days when they first yelled action. He was like, Oh, it's such a special day, everybody.

Alex Ferrari 1:45:03
And you're out. He's he's learned how. Exactly. But I think we'll all come out of this man. It's a tough time. We've been in tough times before. This is unprecedented tough times. This is one of the such as once in a generation situation. But I do believe that something good will come out of it, man, it has to, I have to believe that to keep moving forward.

Troy Duffy 1:45:26
I have to to but just think about all the other times that we've been hit in this business with whatever you know, during the columbidae. That's when they first started discussing real censorship, and actually self censoring. And it all came back. You know, we've gone through dark parts of this business, you know, that there's been like, lately, everybody. What happened to Kevin Spacey being exposed in

Alex Ferrari 1:45:54
the Harvey Yeah, of course, Harvey.

Troy Duffy 1:45:56
I can't believe I used Kevin Spacey. When I had that one right in front of me.

Alex Ferrari 1:46:00
I mean, it's, it's called Getting Weinstein. I mean, it's literally he is now. He's Wow, he's an adjective.

Troy Duffy 1:46:07
Really funny. I put that in a script. yesterday. I'm filming horror film. This guy's explained to this girl. She's a wonderful actress. And she probably won't even have to get Weinstein during production. Last night, it's weird, but yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:46:19
But exactly. But it's a word, business and

Troy Duffy 1:46:22
the people in it, you know, we have taken a lot of punches and a lot of different ways Yemen, and then rolled through it and came out the other side smart, and that we have to have faith in that. I do. It's just that, you know, I also understand we're still having we're still learning things right now. It's almost like we should well, like after all the vaccines to get everybody vaccinated, we start to return to normal, we should come back here, you know, maybe parse this one off for the academy or something. Come back here and say, okay, we talked about it on March 12 2001. All the things we're learning now. It's March 12 2022. We're through it. What did we learn? Where are we at?

Alex Ferrari 1:47:09
Yeah, amen. Amen. Now, I'm gonna ask you, bro, because we could keep going for at least another three hours. And I know we can. And we might, we might another day. But I'm just gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Troy Duffy 1:47:27
To me, one of the the key skills a filmmaker needs, if you because you can go and take the classes, you know, you can go to film school and learn how to run cameras and become very proficient at that. But actually, successful filmmaking takes a another kind of thing, it takes another kind of talent. To me, it comes in two ways. One can almost be dressed as you have to know, let me be surprised how many people in Hollywood can put down a script? And just be like, what did you think? You have to know what great writing it you're What have you just read something,

Alex Ferrari 1:48:09
right?

Troy Duffy 1:48:10
Do you have to know and go, whether that kid is a dishwasher, or the best

Alex Ferrari 1:48:16
for a bouncer, a bouncer at a bar in LA, sir,

Troy Duffy 1:48:21
you got to go get them, you've got to secure that property. Because the stories that mean something, you know, I could have filled my first independent film, with movie stars, it wouldn't have been so independent, it probably wouldn't have had the impact that it had. Now, one of the things that told me that I was a good and real filmmaker was I took the chance and risk to do it. I put my faith in the story. And then you all told me

Alex Ferrari 1:48:49
right

Troy Duffy 1:48:50
it had that effect on you. And I went okay, all right. So that skill, almost like always have your head in a book, know what good writing is, know what good stories are. When you find the one raise heaven, and hell to get it and do it and do not stop until you're done. That was probably the number one piece of advice into being a filmmaker, which is a very specific thing or being a successful or good one, which is a very specific thing. The other one is we all have those friends say in high school and college, the charismatic people that can walk into a room and you know, light the world on fire. You don't necessarily to be one of those. But in dealing with actors, I mean, you will sometimes find a director that's a very great technical director that can pull off amazing shots. But then sometimes you'll see that his actor, the actors are sort of wooden in the scene. That's because that filmmaker hasn't put enough focus in that area, getting into actor's hands, or maybe joining kind of souls with them as candy asses that sounded coming out of my mouth. But knowing who they are really being able to talk with them and see how they feel, and really listen, and really respond, because sometimes it doesn't go immediately sets up a red flag, you know, like, there was this time where I'm talking to foe and he goes, he goes, I feel like I should dance in this scene. And right away, I'm gone. You know, there's that alarm in a you know, in a bad filmmaker reacts like that would be, you know, that you can't do that, because you're a cop and, and take it off the table, try to redirect him. So instead, I went, you know, that would be totally

Alex Ferrari 1:50:38
awesome.

Troy Duffy 1:50:38
Appropriate, but

Alex Ferrari 1:50:42
let's just shoot it.

Troy Duffy 1:50:43
Or here's an inappropriate. So in, you know, suppose like, Yeah, I know, now you're in the sandbox with an actor. Now you just open up that door,

Alex Ferrari 1:50:50
Right?

Troy Duffy 1:50:50
You're playing in a sandbox, this is that type of figure out ways to truly connect with the actor that get them in it deeper. Because you will always get something, always get something better than it is on the page, always 100% of the time. And that does require you putting your own sensitivities and ego aside, you know, there's that I hated this. But there was this there was this. There was a sort of attitude about me flowing forth from people or not actors from other people. sad that I was like this, you know, john Houston type of a overly confident Let's go. mount up, fellas. Go kill it forever. And you can, you could be like that sometimes that's more cast and crew general leaving his minions, his soldiers in ways. But that wasn't that I knew it was a lie. You know, you let it be said and you don't really, if you comment, but I was a lie. What the real with the real nitty gritty of filmmaking, as is when actors got blood all over them. And they're in the middle of a scene, and you help yell hold, and you are still filming. And you go down and whisper something right in their ear, and make them understand, and you feel their body shaking. And you just go and boom, you get something that you never thought possible because that person explodes in front of you. These are the things to me that make wise and good filmmakers. So

Alex Ferrari 1:52:25
that was arguably one of the best answers to that question ever, sir. Now I have to ask this question is, as I asked this question to everybody is not just user. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life, I swear, it's almost on every episode on my show, everyone's talking. This whole interviews been about that. I know, I know. But I just wanted to just I had because my fans with my audience, we just go he didn't ask them the question. I'm like, I

Troy Duffy 1:53:00
okay, that's a simple you know, you are, I am grateful, be grateful for your mistakes. Your mistakes, is what makes you a better person and a better filmmaker. And I have made some doozies. So now I am like, the best person the best moment, because I've made so many huge mistakes. What know when you know, another another one would be know when to fight for something. It's a series of compromises when you start to say make a film. You got producers over here, y'all and you're here about the money. Yeah, you got actors yelling about the story, they want this, that and the other you have need to know what to do. You need to know where to compromise but then you need to know where to plant your flag. If you've done a bunch of compromising before you plant your flag and defend something everybody knows, and then you get what you want. In those moments. choose your battles wisely, and make tons of compromise beforehand be a person that they tell on the phone to all the people they report to. Yeah, he's good to work with he gets it we got a good director here. And then when you stick your heels in, you dig your heels in they'll listen and passionate about it and you don't do it like I did where you yell at everybody god dammit.

Alex Ferrari 1:54:28
I told you no, look I you we are our mistakes. So again, if a mobster shows up and wants to make a movie with me, I'll say no.

Troy Duffy 1:54:38
And the next time two friends of mine say you want to do a documentary on you I'm gonna go No thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:54:48
And

Troy Duffy 1:54:49
Oscars thing you know next time someone asks you if you're in God, you say

Alex Ferrari 1:54:57
and and scene. And last question, man, three of your favorite films of all time.

Troy Duffy 1:55:06
Okay, you'd have to go with Apocalypse Now for sure. Probably the shining but my buddy I would actually break that up into two categories. Sure. Your favorite indies of all time? No big big one big. You got your Apocalypse Now you have godfather I consider one into one of the greatest NO SEQUEL type things. entities I remember when I was a kid the first one that hit me was um what is escaping right now? Chris Lambert Highlander. Birth I loved it.

Alex Ferrari 1:55:48
When the Queen soundtrack dude Oh, one. Yeah, so good. It's great. And then

Troy Duffy 1:55:56
strangely enough, dude. Yeah. Number one independent of all time is a film called nil by mouth. Have you ever seen Nil by mouth?

Alex Ferrari 1:56:06
No.

Troy Duffy 1:56:08
Okay, you're about to have the same experience I did. I'm not going to ruin it for you. Okay, don't look it up to see anything.

Alex Ferrari 1:56:17
Just you know.

Troy Duffy 1:56:18
Put it in. Don't don't know directors writers who did it What? How much?

Alex Ferrari 1:56:23
What's the name? What's the name of it hit?

Troy Duffy 1:56:25
Nil by muoth. Okay, no English term. Are they used to hang over beds in triage units in World War One and to say that they couldn't receive medication orally.

Alex Ferrari 1:56:38
Okay. All right. I'll look it up.

Troy Duffy 1:56:41
And we should we should actually reconvene after you see that do a little mini

Alex Ferrari 1:56:45
Did you ever see the movie? This is an indie that i i always champion and it doesn't get talked about a lot. Man bites dog.

Troy Duffy 1:56:54
Love it. We see again called classics. There's difference between an Indian a cult classic. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's manbites dog and copies. olympischem I love that.

Alex Ferrari 1:57:03
Oh my god so god

Troy Duffy 1:57:04
It's so great then, you know like but take the Colt classics. Because if you're gonna actually do that, the I've seen I've seen awesome list of like the most hard the hardest indies of all time. You know, the hard cores and it's always Boondock, Man bites dog

Alex Ferrari 1:57:21
right?

Troy Duffy 1:57:23
Romper stomper. Yeah. Other big one. You know, right but the both classics are a different story. They can be all over the place. Yeah, well, how similar is Boondock to say Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Alex Ferrari 1:57:34
Nothing

Troy Duffy 1:57:34
nothing. Well, I mean, similar as Rocky Horror to man bites dog.

Alex Ferrari 1:57:40
Well, and also if you want to go down into cult classics, the worst movie ever made the room? I mean, it. I mean, it is one of it is a joy to watch. But I only want to watch that with other people and preferably filmmakers because it's much much more enjoyable to watch it then. And and people have been asking me a lot to get Tommy on the show. And I'm about it is it is a cool guy?

Troy Duffy 1:58:05
He's odd. It's odd

Alex Ferrari 1:58:07
Yeah, that's that's what I'm scared. I'm a little like, how do you talk for an hour with like, I like

Troy Duffy 1:58:13
the guy who introduced me to him was a friend of his and he's just like, it just kind of depends on how you catch him. You know, it's your stick. I had heard that he would he wanted to meet me and he was all excited and a boondoggle when I met him, he was like, Hey, Mike, well, hey. It was like nothing You know, I was weird.

Alex Ferrari 1:58:35
I'm kind of

Troy Duffy 1:58:36
here to have some fun. I just do weird shit to school or pack your lunch. It was fucking things that are gonna make them go away

Alex Ferrari 1:58:46
I'll take that into consideration sir. Dude brother man, thank you so much for being on the show man. It has been an absolute joy talking to you. And I'm so glad I've been able to give you this place to kind of set the record straight on everything and and and hopefully this will be the beginning of you being out on social media now talking a little bit more sharing with the fans and all that stuff so brother thank you for doing what you do man and keep doing it. We need films like boondock out there we need voices like yours out in the marketplace and out into cinema man so Thank you brother.

Troy Duffy 1:59:20
All right, next one is working hard on three exams are going to get what they want.

Alex Ferrari 1:59:25
Thank you my friend.

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BPS 132: The Screenwriter’s Workout with Will Hicks

November 14, 2021August 4, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I had a fun chat with our guest today. We hit it off pre-interviewing, geeking out about James Cameron and his latest masterclass, and so much more. On the show this today is Will Hicks who is head of Screenwriting and production at Colorado Film School and an associate professor at the Community College of Aurora.

Will had a start in producing and screenwriting earlier in his career until making the shift to teaching few years in — appreciating more, the elements of studying the craft of form and purity in teaching that he feels are more rewarding.

His commitment to academia led to publishing his book, The Screenwriter’s Workout, which we discuss lengthy in this interview. The Screenwriter’s Workout is a training program consisting of over 75 exercises and activities designed for screenwriters. It aims to help screenwriters explore their creativity and strengthen their storytelling skills.

The book includes exercises on designing dynamic characters, exploring structure, creating stories, redefining conflict, analyzing the work, craft compelling loglines ad discovering interactive screenwriting.

The 2021 Variety Entertainment Impact Report featured Hicks on its Top 50 Film Schools and Instructors from around the world list—revering his 100 plus professional credits nurturing some of the best talents in the country.

Besides talking about Hick’s career teaching screenwriting, we also do some surface character building and storytelling analysis of some famous films and writers. But also, the complexity of writing the end of a sustaining story for TV.

Enjoy this conversation with Will Hicks.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:14
I like to welcome to the show Will Hicks. How you doing Will?

Will Hicks 0:18
Doing Will? How about you?

Alex Ferrari 0:19
I'm doing very good, my friend. I'm doing very good. We've had a very spirited conversation even before we got started on this thing, because today as of this recording, Mr. James Cameron released a masterclass and I generally don't fond over masterclasses in general, it's some of them are good. Some of them are like, you know, just basically YouTube videos. But there's a handful that are really good, but it's James Cameron. And I was fascinated to see what James Cameron was doing. And I've just been sitting there consuming it. And then we started talking about it and how he's very underrated as not only a filmmaker but as a screenwriter and you actually bring them into your coursework, right?

Will Hicks 1:01
I do. Yeah, there's a bunch of takeaways you can take away from Cameron reminds me of a story he tells about bleeders growing up in Canada and he could cut grass for living and you need to look at these massive lawns and say it's gonna take forever just this huge daunting thing. And so then he would focus on one row at a time one row at a time. And he equated that to filmmaking it just and screenwriting it seems like it's this massive endeavor, but you break it down into its granular level one line at a time one line at a time and suddenly you're you're done not only that just to see and craft alone when you look at I think there's this there's this bit of a perception Hey because you have commercial success you know your work is not artistic and I just disagree with that vehemently. I think you can have you can have both a work that not only reaches a large number of people but can also be an artistic you know it can it has something to say and meaning and just how we construct the scenes are just tight tight beyond tight. Is dialogue worthy of study.

Alex Ferrari 2:12
Yeah, his his story structure I mean, you go back to watching any of his any work early, late mid from the recent as recent as avatar, which is now a decade. Oh, it was it's over 10 years since we've seen it. It's he's he's an insane, insane man and in the best possible way. And now we're gonna get four avatars back to back to back to back. Apparently, so, but you look at a Terminator. Read that script. Read aliens read the abyss. Oh my god. Yeah, this True Lies any of it. And anytime he. I remember when Titanic was coming out. Everyone was like, Oh, he's Oh, this is gonna be a bomb. This is gonna be crazy as hell, which everybody, that's the long story. But I always used to tell people Mike and Cameron I trust, whatever he does. Whatever he does, he hasn't failed me yet. which is rare for a filmmaker because most filmmakers, you know, stumble or didn't hit the mark. And that's okay. That's all artists do that. But for whatever reason, Cameron, every one of his movies, in my eyes at least hits the mark. For me True Lies is exactly what he wanted it to be. And aliens was exactly in Titanic, and then even average and even avatar when avatar was coming out. After everything is done. People were like, Oh, God, blue people. Oh, this is this looks ridiculous. And I'm like, hey, he made a movie about a boat. And we all knew the ending. Okay, yeah, we all knew the ending. And he used it against us in creating tension, which was masterful, is masterful how he did that. It's remarkable. It's so many lessons you can learn. He agree.

Will Hicks 3:49
Oh, absolutely. And it's funny. I think that's the length of Titanic works for it. Because, you know, we've reached we reached the point where in the film, where it's like, Okay, this movie should be ending sometime soon. And there's all these little moments there where jack goes under the water comes back out of the water spoiler.

Alex Ferrari 4:07
And if you haven't seen the song, you guys sorry.

Unknown Speaker 4:10
Yeah, that was kind of my thing. And then like, Oh, we just don't know he didn't. And it starts to use its length to actually, you know, advance the storytelling and then from a structural perspective, you know, talking about story structure, and so forth. It's just like, beautiful. analyze it. And the real knock or the real concern with Titanic back in the day was everybody knew Cameron could do action. He had proven it time and again, so nobody was the studio's weren't worried about that. It was really seen a love story. Now.

Alex Ferrari 4:42
It's all we've seen from him. Thank you. That's my point. every movie, every movie from True Lies, to the Abyss to aliens determining their love stories.

Will Hicks 4:53
That's exactly it. And so, you know, you've seen it you hear that scuttle? really did you not watch the term Terminator.

Alex Ferrari 5:01
Now watch Terminator two, or Terminator two, like their love stories. One is between a man and a wife. The other was the love of a son and a daughter and son in the mother. Like, it's just, I think the abyss. That's all that is, is a love story. Yeah. And so,

Will Hicks 5:18
so that, you know, the whole conventional wisdom is outright whatever. And so yeah, I felt like we'd be in good hands. But in particular, you know, going back to the original Terminator, to me that that was kind of the finest of the two, I get in debates for this all the time, because there's two fans and so forth. But I mean, you're taking that world and bringing it upon us for the first time, in addition to all the heavy lifting you have to do with the story. But yeah, mythologically constructed just just thing of beauty, to watch

Alex Ferrari 5:47
and on. And on a low budget and,

Will Hicks 5:50
and on very low budget. And then of course launches, you know, Terminator two, with much more or much greater resources at hand. But I felt the storytelling in Terminator one was just to me, it was superior. And that's, you know, comparing the two gems and saying, Oh, yeah, this one has more facets. Yes, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of cool. I had a screenplay go into development with the guy who shut down Titanic from the studio. And so, you know, it's kinda like, holy crap. This guy, you know, went down and told James Cameron, you know, you need to shut down. And here he is working with, you know, little me and Ellie. Okay. So that was kind of cool. My my little connection,

Alex Ferrari 6:34
my favorite, my favorite. And then and then we will actually continue with this actual interview. But we should we just started geek out a little bit about Cameron, is that my favorite Cameron story I've ever heard it was actually was in one of the books, one of his books on his career. He was on the Abyss and if anyone has not seen the abyss, not only watch the abyss, but you have to watch the documentary about the Abyss that comes with the DVD or the blu ray because it is arguably one of the best documentaries out there with hearts of darkness about the making of a film you just like see the absolute abuse that that entire crew, including Cameron took to make that was an impossibility. Go shuts down a nuclear power plant or has a with a decommissioned nuclear power plant fills it up with water and builds a set in it. Like he's insane. It's an insane man. And I love him for that. But one day he was uh, he was there was some suits that came in from from the studio going, Hey, what's going on with this is getting a little bit over budget here, which I think it ended up being around 15 million in 1988, which was a pretty big budget with, you know, no major, big stars in it at the time. And Cameron had just come up from a decompression period of about three hours because you have to decom he was underwater, so long. You have to decompress. And he was always the last one. First one in last one out. So he had just got dumped, decompressing came out and this suit starts walking towards him. And he as he gets out, he has this helmet on and these helmets where if you remember watching the movie, the helmets, you could see through, they designed the helmets themselves. So they could shoot and see and listen to dialogue and all this kind of stuff. So as he's taking it off, he sees this guy and he starts to talk to him a second or two about but he knows who he is. And he knows it's the studio. So he takes the helmet and throws it on top of the guy's head. Now without any air you can't breathe. There's no air connected to it. So now it's like he's basically suffocating the dude grabs him by the tie through hangs him over the tank, feet almost dangling. He's just there like this can't breathe. And he says if he falls, the guy's not going to make it. I mean, again, not something you want to do in today's world in any time period. But it's fascinating to hear these mythical stories. He has like if you ever come on my set again, I will kill you. And then he throws him back on they pull the head off. He got out of the car got on the plane. And and that was the last time any suit ever showed up on this set of dates? No, it's great. Yeah, that's called negotiations. That is a that's a James Cameron negotiation. And I've heard he has softened over the years. I mean, I you know, I've heard he's, I knew a lot of people who work with him on Titanic. And I've heard the stories, and also on avatar, but he's still James Cameron. He's always gonna be Jeff King, because he's frustrated because he's, he's playing at a level that most human beings aren't theirs. And I always tell people, if there's one, if there's if he's basically the only human being on the planet, arguably, that could make avatar who could walk into a studio and go, I need 500 million. I'm going to take about three or four years to develop this technology. It's going to be about an IP that no one's ever heard of. I'm creating a new IP and it hopefully it's gonna work. Who else? No one's not getting that Fincher is not getting that Spielberg. Not getting that, that no one else on the planet is going to get that, and then also be able to pull it off. Like, he's one of the few people that could do it. So anyway, that's enough about Mr. Cameron. I just got it. We just got excited about the new master class, I just want to talk about it. But anyway, well, we're here to talk about you and what you do, sir, how did you get into the business.

So kind of a little bit of a long story that goes back all the way to, um, Star Wars, the initial release that film, and I saw it as a little kid, my dad took me to see it, actually, I didn't want to see it. I was added, like, I don't know, some little camp or whatever. And all the kids were talking about, and I hadn't seen it yet. So I'm like, I'm sick of this movie before even seeing it. But my dad had heard about lines. So we took off from work early, and we went to go see this film. And I walked in there, just some little kid from a Podunk town in Georgia, and came out of there, knowing what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And it was his profound an experience. I mean, it's in a theater. And so that sort of set that path in motion. Now, the logical part of me was like, crazy making movies for a living, you might as well might as well told my parents, I wanted to do crack, you know, it's like, oh, I'm gonna grow up, be a crack dealer. You know, it's kind of perceived that way. And, of course, they would be like, Oh, god, he's gonna be living on our couch for the rest of his life. But it's set that in motion, I'd never haven't had anything move me in that way. And so that sort of launched that career a tried a bunch of different things. You know, because cognitively, I'm like, okay, you know, the, the odds of making it in our businesses are slim. But eventually, I just came back to it, like, you know, if I don't try this, but don't do it, I'll regret it for the rest of my life, there's a inch that has to be scratched, I've got to at least if I try and fail, all right, I can deal with that. I can live with that. But I have to try it. And so that's what I did led to film school, at the North Carolina School, the arts at the University of North Carolina School, the art school of filmmaking. And from there, I started working in production, and did a ton of production. And, you know, back then my thought was when movies get made on the set, it was only later that you figure out now movies get made and boardrooms shot, and they get shot on a set. But at the time, you know, I was all about that. While I was pursuing a career in production, I was also pursuing screenwriting kind of trying to do both and balance the two, production career was doing extremely well. So it didn't leave a lot of time for screenwriting. But I was part of a screenwriting Association. And we had this outreach program where we would teach screenwriting classes and so forth. And so I was I was tapped to do that. So I was teaching these screenwriting classes. And one day, my wife made the observation that, you know, when you come home from your classes, you're all like, excited and stoked and really happy. And when you come back from a set, you're kind of awful and miserable. And so you know, of course, when your wife makes a suggestion, it's kind of okay, but listen. But I realized she was on to something, there was something rewarding about teaching that I wasn't getting from making movies, oddly enough, you know, and so I decided to make the career shift there. And it happened actually, I was working on I'm Have you ever saw cabin fever? A raw film?

Sure. Sure. Sure.

Will Hicks 13:33
Yeah. So I was working on that. And there was one more morning where the rest of the crew got wrong directions from locations. So everybody was lost. And I was already there, because my team had been working on the set the previous week, so I know how to get there. And it was just as pre dawn morning, it was freezing cold all the stars in the sky. And nobody was there. And so I had a moment to think and reflect which is rare. When you work in film. Normally, it's next thing next thing next thing you're always slammed and had an epiphany. And in that moment, I was like, You know what, I'm going to shift my career I'm going to I'm going to teach so that that led to led to us sitting here right now.

Alex Ferrari 14:15
There you go.

Will Hicks 14:17
There's guns out.

Alex Ferrari 14:19
Yeah, it's, uh, I came up to the similar. I came up with like, I don't want to be a PA anymore after like, you know, it's three o'clock in the morning and I'm out here. I gotta figure something else out. I'm like, hey, there's a there's a computer at the office that edits called an avid let me learn that air conditioned, maybe some carpal tunnel it I think that'd be a good place for me to make my bones. And that's how I started as well.

Unknown Speaker 14:43
Yeah, it's funny. It's just the different paths that you go down. And I was thankful for all my experiences, because they informed the teaching, obviously. But I was really fascinated by the form. And you know, looking back to that, that day, a long time ago, in a theater far, far away. And looking back to that moment, what I realized is, I couldn't figure out why this movie star wars again, affected me So, and I wanted to know why. And so that sort of set me on that journey. So in academia, at least I get to study the form, and the purity and it's, there's a purity to it, it's kind of like being at the temple. And you don't have to worry about, you know, some, the producers coming through saying, hey, you need to make these changes for reasons that have nothing to do with the story. And it's understandable from their perspective, I get it. But it's no I can study the purity of the craft, and really dive into it.

Alex Ferrari 15:38
And you also you're in good company, because it also launched many other careers, that movie that started it started out, and not to go back to James Cameron. But that was one of the reasons why he jumped in, as well as because after watching Star Wars, it's like, well, I got, I got to make a movie.

Unknown Speaker 15:52
It's, it's, it's funny. So one of the first days of film school when I when I went there, they gathered the incoming class. And so they're, you know, I don't know, 100 of us or so in there. And all the professors were up front, and they asked me what movie inspired you to make movies, you know, and somebody said, you know, the searchers because I was a DS favorite movie, I'm like, Alright, suck up. But somebody said, you know, citizen K, and then somebody said, Star Wars. And then another person said, Star Wars. And they asked a few other people, then another person said, Star Wars. So finally, the professor's you could tell they were fed up, and they just finally said, Alright, how many of you here were inspired by Star Wars to make movies, and two thirds of that class raised their hand? Me among me among them. And I sat there and sort of taken all that in all my holy crap. A I'm like, you know, I'm home. I'm with I'm with my peeps. But B, I realized that was the impact of that movie. It inspired an entire generation of filmmakers. Not only you know, people in general, but actual filmmakers who were somehow touched by that film, and then wanted to go out in pursue this crazy art form of ours.

Alex Ferrari 16:02
And the funny thing is, though, the person who said that, that Citizen Kane inspired them, I think that's absolutely yes. Because I love Citizen Kane. I think it's, you know, it's it's, you know, it's, it's, it's what it is, it's it was groundbreaking film, but there wasn't like a swatch of people like you, and especially your generation in sitting down in, like, Well, I was sitting down watching Citizen Kane the other day, and like, No, you watched it as a game because you were introduced to Citizen Kane factoid. It's not a movie that just kind of pops off and you're like, oh, that black and white film looks fantastic. But no. But the Star Wars.

Unknown Speaker 17:47
Yeah, that was, that was kind of my, my kind of running joke about it. It's like, yeah, you know, what, Kung Fu Panda two was seen by more people than Citizen Kane in 60 years. And it's now does that mean? It's that's a measure of its artistic success? No. But But when you think about it, I mean, if you make a movie, and nobody sees it, it's like, the movie doesn't exist. And those filmmakers, and I'll stick with Kung Fu Panda, too, for whatever. But, you know, they had a chance to share their message to share their art to share what they think with other people. And to me, that's what film is all about. It's about it's about sharing your sensibilities about what you think about the world. And we're able to share it with a lot of different people. And yeah, not a knock on Cain actually, like Kino love.

Alex Ferrari 18:35
Exactly. But it's but it's not one of those films that you're like, there's not there's nobody has, you know, Citizen Kane dolls and action figures and Citizen Kane on the wall. Generally speaking, that's just not one of those films. It is a classic film, and it should be studied. And what he did was remarkable. And Orson Welles is a master and all that kind of stuff, but it's not the movie that inspired a generation to go to the movies to become filmmakers. It's just not but Star Wars. Absolutely launched. God, how many in 2001 was another one, like how many? You know, people saw that and like, well, I got to do that now.

Will Hicks 19:15
Yeah, that's exactly it. And, and I, you know, ironically, you know, it's not that I make or would write science fiction. It was just it moved me somehow. And that was really the kind of the key piece of it. And when you find that films, I try to you know, advise my students that whatever film that is, if it was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it somehow touched you don't ever let that movie go. Because it had something in it that said something to you that inspired you no matter what it is. Like my favorite guilty pleasure movies. The old Flash Gordon film, Juju?

Alex Ferrari 19:53
Yeah, of course. Fantastic. Guilty pleasure, man. When you put his hand in that thing is You don't know. Oh my god, it still freaks me out.

Will Hicks 20:04
Yeah. And I usually like, you know, it's kind of, you know, teaching film and stuff you're supposed to like, the other films, shall we say? Yes. And I'm like, Nah, there's something about it. I mean, just, it's the weirdest combination of things ever. You have this Art Deco style from the 30s. You have Queen doing the soundtrack, you know, science fiction film. And somehow, it's like, they give you this recipe for a slushie. It's like, really, you're gonna put all this crap in it, and it comes out. It's like this awesome, slushy. And you never would guess it. So I don't just that one, that one. And there's certain degree of camp, that I really appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 20:41
Yeah. And as, as film students, or as students of the craft, everyone listening to here is obviously studying the craft and wants to learn more about the craft. There are those films that touch you like Star Wars touch most, you know, huge amount of people. And you know, there's certain films that when you were younger, hit you. But then when you get older, and you watch it again, you're like, yeah, that didn't age. Well. Like I remember watching, I remember watching Bloodsport, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is the greatest film I've ever seen. And then I watched it the other day, I'm like, Oh, this doesn't this does not hold up. So I've now made the choice of not going back to watch full versions of some of these old movies that I have wonderful recollections of, because they they feel, I have a feeling to that, like, oh, that movie meant that to me. But then I go back and watch it, and it ruins it sometimes. So it depends. But some movies transcend Star Wars you can watch right now and completely holds and continue will continue to. And I think as a storytelling tool, or lesson you can learn is George did such an amazing job with the structure of that story using the hero's journey at such a expert level. I mean, he was literally talking to Joseph Campbell, about it, as he was writing it, it's done so surgically, that it will hold forever. Regardless of sometimes maybe some of the visual effects might be a little janky it things like that. But overall, though, it will hold because of the story. And because of the structure, and those characters and how he was able to weave them all together, that they will never I don't think that'll ever age. I mean, it's still my kids watch it now their new generation who've grown up watching really high end visual effects and really high end storytelling, and they're actually much more literate story consumers than you are I was because we didn't have as much content to consume as we were growing up. And it still hits them. It still goes right to the heart of it. And that's something that's you want that magic and your stories and your scripts.

Will Hicks 22:49
Yeah, and I would, I would say that comes that pours out of the characters, pours out of the characters pours out of the tale that's being told. I like to think and I teach a class called deconstructing Star Wars. Where we got into this, that's amazing. So yeah, no surprise, I suppose given my background, but but looking at it, to me, the Big Bang of Star Wars, where it all starts is that moment when Luke is walking out looking at the twin sunsets. And that's where it all it's, that's the big bang of that entire universe is just some kid stuck on a farm wanting adventure.

Alex Ferrari 23:27
And that's everybody, you that's everybody. That's how universal is that? It's not a diet and not a piece and not a piece of dialogue. And that image by the way, it's not like it is just the imagery. I mean, we know who the character is at that point. And he's a young boy living on a farm. But that moment, there's not like, wow, I wish I had some adventure. Now there was no dialogue there. He just looks and everywhere around the world. Wherever you are, you just go Yep, that's what we want. We want that thing we want to get out of where we are at one stage or another in our lives. We want to get out of where we are, or just go to another place or go on a vacation, or go on an adventure at once. And we said before it's it's it's remarkable. You're right. But that is the Big Bang of the entire Star Wars universe I would agree with you.

Will Hicks 24:14
And it's interesting, because, you know, why do you go to movies to do the same thing, alright, to experience something that you can't necessarily experience in real life. Or if it's a realistic film, you know, experiencing real life on steroids or something like that. But you know, to me, it's as much a film about the about filmmaking as it as anything else. And then you touch on a really important point. It's something I discussed quite a bit in my book, but not the plug the book. But it really kind of cuts to the heart of how cinema communicate story. And it's that idea, that scene is silent. And the reason it works is because it's silent. And we the audience, then insert whatever, you know, we could be thinking, Oh, yeah, Luke is checking out Why are there two sons, and we could think that it would work. Or you know, obviously what the filmmaker intended, which is just longing for something. But notice, because at silence, we put our thoughts in there. And as a result, whatever works for you may be different than works for me. But we both have the opportunity to do it.

Alex Ferrari 25:24
As opposed to having up Yeah, other than having the on the nose dialogue and like, wow, I wish I had some adventure, like which we see sometimes instead of just like not just shish shish, keep what we were talking before we came on about, about finding inspiration or story elements from different weirdest places ever. And I was like, Oh, I still remember this David Fincher commercial. Because I love the David Fincher, I've studied all his commercial work and music, video work. And some of the stuff that he does is, you know, they think of a lot of people think of him as a visual storyteller, and, you know, very technical and his films are aesthetically, you know, searchable, almost it really are. And they don't give him enough credit for emotion. And character development. I think that's, you know, I mean, you look at seven or you look at Fight Club and things like that. But this commercial was so simple. But it was clear for Lani of forlani, I think her name is she was the girl from men and black. And I'm in black, mutual black. And she's sitting in a restaurant with an older gentleman look good looking older gentlemen, in a fancy restaurant, and she's a much younger green, she must be in her early 20s. He must be in his probably late 40s, early 50s. And in there having dinner and then all of a sudden, it's raining outside, and there's a big glass window in the restaurant. And this young, strapping young guy who has desperation in his face starts very Allah, the graduate banging on the on the glass going, you know, him and everyone's like, Oh, my God, Who is this? And she sees it. And she's like, making the decision at that point. Do I stay with this older stable guy? Or do I go on this crazy adventure? With this young one with, I have no idea what's gonna happen. And she decides to get up goes outside, they kiss they embrace in the rain, everyone starts clapping. And of course, then you pan down and go Levi's. But the story was there, and I put all everything I just explained to you. I made that up. Meaning like, I don't know who that get that could have been her father. But I don't think it was, you know, I actually implanted the storyline in there. And I, I added the whole thing like this, this guy, that guy could be super rich, that kid and he could be very successful, I don't know. But the way he left it open like that you implant your own emotions there. And your own storyline, and just like the two moons and look.

Will Hicks 27:51
Yeah, and that's, And that, to me is the power of cinema. It's that ability. And it's one of those things we you know, talk about, like a novelist, for instance, they'll give you a story, and you supply the visuals, you know, based on the words, film, we're just the opposite. We're giving you the visuals, and asking you to start assembling that story, put the story together. Now, obviously, everything is highly guided, and just like in the commercial, but it's an idea No, no, no. If you want to create meaning, it's done by the person watching it, and heavily guided by the filmmaker who's presenting these two images and saying, All right, put them together. And that's, it's it's an interesting thing. That's one of the things not that it's not, you know, interview about Star Wars, I suppose. But going back Star Wars was a very experiential film. And think about it, Lucas creates an entire galaxy, buy from a bunch of dudes sitting around in rubber suits in a bar. And you imply and we add all of that stuff to it. We're like, Oh, yeah, where'd they come from? And what's their backstory, and so forth? And so we start adding all these layers to it. It's a it's an, it's a playground for your imagination, to then start filling in all those pieces. And then you watch the film to see what did I filled in correctly? Did I not put it in correctly and so forth? And so really masteral films, I think that's the craft. Usually, a statement I say that gets me in trouble is a movie is not a story. It's evidence that a story is being told. Oh, that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 29:29
That's actually a really interesting way of looking at it. It that's Can you can you dig into that a little bit? Because I'm curious where you're going with that?

Will Hicks 29:38
Well, it's the idea that so much of what we do in in filmic storytelling and cinematic narrative is indirect. And you even touched on it you know, talking about Oh, you don't write on the nose. Well, why not? that'll tell the story the fastest way possible. Then you can pack more story in Mm hmm. But it clunks it almost always clunks in me Okay, why? You know, why don't we want to be told these things? What do we want to do here? And we want to figure it out, we want to figure it out for ourselves. And so much of cinematic narrative is indirect. And it led me to the conclusion like, Oh, wait, we're not. It's not a pure story in the sense that we're sitting down around a campfire and telling you these things, but rather, we're showing you all of these events, and in allowing you the audience member to put it together. In a very, once again, it's guided, it's very guided, but putting it together way to come up with a story collaboratively. Film is in me, it drives me crazy when people say, oh, films a passive medium. No, it's not interactive. Yeah, it's in the joystick isn't here. You know, the joystick is in here. It's in your mind. And you start and you start watching the film saying, Okay, well, why don't you say that, so forth. And then the film explores those things, really smart films are interactive by nature,

Alex Ferrari 31:03
right, and you start thinking about subtext, I mean, subtext is not a subtext is not efficient. That is not efficient in the story. Like you can't, you can't, when you're telling a story around the campfire subtext is a difficult thing, to have a conversation about, like you can't be like she said, clean the dishes. But what she really meant to tell her husband is that you don't love me anymore. So and that's hard to say. But it's so much easier in the visual medium, to say, because of acting, because of environment because of those nuances, that is very difficult to put in the written word, extremely difficult to put into a word. But in cinema, you're allowed to do that. And again, we'll go back to that scene with the two moons, if you would have said that, like, Hey, I wish I had adventure. It doesn't have the same umph to it. If you would just if you say the exact same thing in your head, because you feel like you're being pulled along that you're part of this. You are Luke, if someone tells you what they're feeling, you're not Luke anymore. And that's where I think a lot of screenplays and films fail is that they don't give the audience the opportunity to identify and become that character. So you know, when we watch Indiana Jones, which now part five is being filmed as we speak, Hey, man, I'm there. Why not? I am to look, you know, will it will it nuke the fridge? I don't know. But But when you're watching Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Last Crusade or Temple of Doom, your your indie. When you watch a James Bond movie, you're James Bond, you know, and you go along these adventures with these, but the subtleties of what they say how they, I mean, Indiana Jones is full of subjects. I mean, every word he says, That's some sort of subtext, you know, oh, my God, it's so amazing the way they the way they crafted that again, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg on that one. It's, it's remarkable. But you're absolutely right. I really never kind of put it to words like you just like how we've been having this discussion. And I hope people listening can really understand the power of the interactivity of the audience, and only masters of the craft, both of screenwriting, but I think also of filmmaking, because it turns into, like, there's only so much you can do on the page, and then it then you have to give it over to the actors and the director, and the day, because some things happen on the day that you just can't write. So it is that collaborative art form. But it's those masters like Hitchcock. I mean, I mean, he's one of the ones that everyone has to watch. But Hitchcock is one of those filmmakers that he even said he's like, I wish one day that I could just have a machine that I could touch a button and hit that motion, and touch a button hit that motion play the audience like a piano. And that's what his films, I mean, you go back and watch psycho. I mean, it's just a masterclass in all I mean, there's a there's a period North by Northwest, there's that period for vertigo that he had like six or seven, his his, his his time. They're all massive. They're just so masterful, and you just go along with it. And they still hold up even though they're older films and things like that. But the storytelling still holds up and you're you're along for the ride. I mean, you are. You are. Oh God, what's your name? in the in the shower? Generally, generally you are Janet Lee. And when that figure comes in with the with the juice, you feel like you've been you've been stabbed. It's fascinating to watch that sequence. It's amazing to watch.

Will Hicks 34:52
Yeah, and with and within the context of the film itself because back in the day, Janet Lee was the star

Alex Ferrari 35:00
There's, of course,

Will Hicks 35:01
and of course, you know, no movie kills off at Star halfway through, and then you're going, Okay, well, who do I hang out with now? Because, you know, what's name Anthony Perkins?

Alex Ferrari 35:12
like to hang out with this weirdo?

Will Hicks 35:14
Yeah. And, and you don't have a choice you have to? It's like, Okay, well, I don't have a choice. I have to this is now my main character. So just the guts. That was just the brilliance of the film in my mind. Because it played with your expectations. You're like, okay, she'll somehow get out of it.

Alex Ferrari 35:30
No, she's gone. What do we do now? But there's but there's something to be said there about the Curiosity aspect of it. Now. Now you're in now I'm hooked, you are engaged, because all your preconceived notions have been thrown out the window. And and Hitchcock knew that when he was making that film, he knew that you thought that she's the star, she's going to keep going. And he's completely flipped it. And now you're just like, wait a minute. If they could kill off the main actress, they could kill anybody off at any moment for the rest of this film. So I need to pay attention now. And then Wes Craven did it as well with scream when he killed Drew Barrymore at the beginning of the river. Yeah, like, you know, she's the bachelor I was gonna go to, arguably arguably the biggest star in that movie. She's like, Oh, yeah, it's the Drew Barrymore movie, and she's on the poster and everything. And first 10 minutes. You're like, holy cow. It's, I call it now The Walking Dead effect, which is the when you watch the series, The Walking Dead. And there's other series that kill off people, I think, against the throne. I never watched games with them. But I know that there's no one safe, that that no one's safe thing keeps the audience at edge, especially if it's you've especially a long, long form, like television, or streaming that you can emotionally attached over, you know, that, you know, sometimes seasons after seasons. And you're like, oh, my god, they're gone now. But knowing that at any moment, it's gone. That's such a powerful storytelling technique.

Will Hicks 37:04
It is. And it's set in motion. So now we're like, okay, nobody's safe. And you have to watch because you're not quite sure what could possibly happen next. And it's kind of like the, I guess, for example, from classical music, like the surprise Symphony. And you get this little bang, it's like, okay, and you never know when it's gonna show up again. So you have to always create that level of tension in there. And films do the same thing. for Canada, the same thing you want to go there.

Alex Ferrari 37:31
And that's why I love Bohemian Rhapsody. Maybe the craziest, craziest pop song ever written? And, and you just sit there like, Wait, is that an opera is that not rock now it's now it's a ballad, like what's going on. But you know, that will go that's another world we can go down later. But it's very, very similar, though, it's like you will completely don't know what's going to happen. And if you as a screenwriter can, as a storyteller can't keep your audience guessing. In a comedy in a thriller, and horror in an action, you will work for the rest of your life, and you will always get paid to write. But bottom line, if you can keep the audience or the reader or the whoever's consuming your content on not knowing what's happening next. You want you want because we're so educated, for better or worse, everything's done. It's so hard to surprise us. That's why when we are surprised with a twist, you know, remember six cents, Jesus Christ, what six that's came out. I mean, that one of the greatest, one of the greatest twist endings of all time, he built the entire career off of that now, he's like, I have to have to do twist endings all the time. You know, it's, it's like he had to build this career around twist endings. But that was one of the greatest twist endings, ever. In your art as an audience member, if you can, and that's why that movie, I mean, it's essentially, potentially a drama slash ghost story, not really particularly scary, some of the scary parts, but it's essentially a drama. And we're all like, okay, we're all walking down. The story does this very nice internet. But when that thing happens, everything from that moment before gets rewound in your head, and you're just like, oh, wait a minute, well, and it just blows people's minds. And it was just remarkable. As a storyteller. I have such respect for me. I mean, what he's been able to do in his career as a writer is remarkable.

Will Hicks 39:32
And it kind of taps into the idea of, you know, really good ending is not I didn't see that coming. A really good ending is I should have seen that comment. And you go back and watch. So for instance, you go back and you know, watch Sixth Sense, like it's all there. Oh. And that goes back to that idea of allowing the audience to put these elements together kind of goes back way back to the day. You Billy Wilder said Ernst Lubitsch, you said let the audience had two plus two. They love you for it. And so it's the idea that we're sitting here looking at this movie as an audience member sticking with six cents for a little bit. And going, Okay, yeah, this poor kid, you see, and all the clues are there that Oh, yeah. As well as once again spoiler, you know, in among us these days. But we don't put it together that way, because the way the film is presented, and then when you get the twist, that's the key you needed to understand to then go back and look up. No wonder she didn't talk to him. He's not there. Because only the Kip Hailey Joe Osmond. Because name is only he can see that people. And so it's it's playing with his audience expectations. And saying, okay, here's it's think of a movie is kind of like a q&a session. And think about the questions the audience is going to have and how they're going to be assembling the information you're presenting to them. And then you start to play around with it. And allow them to draw the conclusion that, oh, this isn't quite right. And then you can you can flip it on them and create those reversals, and create that idea of unpredictability. It's really hard when you think about it. You know, movie audiences today, in particular, are really savvy. And they're like, okay, yeah, see it coming. And if they can see that ending, coming, usually not a good thing. But the irony is, they also want the ending they want. So you know, if I have I'll go back to Star Wars, just because any easy example. If I go back, and Luke is there in the trench, you know, and use the false loop let go, you know, and invaders like I have you now and blast them in a loop just kind of goes in vaporizes. Yeah, really sucks. If you like,

Alex Ferrari 41:42
worst movie ever. You got

Will Hicks 41:44
to be kidding me an empire goes and blows up the Death Star and or blows up, you know, the Rebel base. We want that ending, we want the hero to be triumphant. We just don't want to see it coming. Because then it becomes predictable. So how do you create the predictable ending the ending we want, but make it unpredictable. And that's really the art of it? Well, I

Alex Ferrari 42:05
was just watching. I was just watching The Handmaid's Tale. And we're, as of this recording, getting towards the end of season four, not going to give any spoiler alerts. But something happens to a character there, who has a bad character. And we're all going like this guy needs to get his up is coming up in one way, shape, or form. And then as you start seeing the episode, and we've been this, this for seasons built up. So this is I mean, we've built this up, and we're waiting for the character and something, a twist happens for a second, like, oh, wait a minute, and are in our main characters doing something? And you're like, oh, wait a minute. And then I literally was sitting there with my wife looking at it. Like we're both trying to figure it out. But is she going to do this is accident happened? Where's this gonna go? Where are they? What's going on? And we're like, and we're so savvy. I mean, I'm probably a little bit more savvy, you know, story analysts than most you know, people that do this for a living. So and my wife is just been with me for so long. She's become one as well. And she'll catch up. So we're like this, this? We didn't see it coming? exactly the way it happened. Like we've looked. Oh, and then afterwards, you're like, it was perfect. Oh, my God, it was cool. Perfect. Well, like Breaking Bad, the end of Breaking Bad you like you want How do you end that? I'm not going to break. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone. But you should anyone listening to this should have seen Breaking Bad at this point, the entire series. But that ending like how do you end? arguably one of the best shows ever written? Ever, ever produced it? arguably, but what some of the best storytelling ever? How do you end it and didn't see it coming? at all completely original way they ended it. And it was so satisfying. And that's why endings of shows are so bad. So that because it's just it's just so hard.

Will Hicks 43:51
Yeah, it is. Well, you know, you think about TV, it's built to extend, you know, it's built to sustain and it's not really built, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, film, at least the origins of film. They're really meant to be self contained, not, you know, franchises, sequels and all that stuff. disregarded, but it's meant to be a self contained story, whereas TV is meant to be a sustaining story goes on and on and on. And so sometimes those endings, particularly for TV shows are really hard, because the medium is built differently, or at least the approach to the meeting is both a little bit differently.

Alex Ferrari 44:25
Now, you were talking to me off camera about this old PlayStation game called Crash Bandicoot and that you found some some gem of something in that in regards to story. Can you please elaborate?

Will Hicks 44:41
Yes, you're a bit of a backstory to it when my son was really little. And I was playing this Crash Bandicoot game he loved to watch it in watch me play this thing. But it wasn't just like the game in its entirety. It was a single level called the Great gate of all things. And check it out. If you haven't seen it, watch a walkthrough on YouTube or what have you. But this one level and I play the level and he's like, again, again, set up to play the level again, again, again, Okay, you know what you do for your kids like, Alright, so I'll play it again and again and again. And he never got tired of the single level of this game, I must have played that thing, hundreds of times, I'd play with a controller upside down and play with my eyes closed, you know, because I'm so bored of the stupid level, right. And then there was just one little sequence in there. Where, if you're familiar with the game as a platform, and it's tilted, and there's this green moss stuff on the side of it, and then a little platform down below it, so it kind of looks a little bit like that. And the green moss stuff is slippery, and may sound like the stupidest thing ever. But it hit me in that moment, that oh, we were just taught a rule, green moss is slippery. That's in video games, a very simple rule. But we were taught it without stakes, because there was a platform for you to land on. So that you would be safe. Now imagine if you just slipped off and die to be like this stupid game, not gonna go extra hard at all. And what hit me in that month, and then then the next little sequence there, they show you that Oh, you can slip backwards, you can slip forward. And it kind of explores the idea of this green moss stuff of all things. What dawned on me in that moment, watching that thing, or the Epiphany I had was, oh, that was a, that was a storytelling element. If we were to translate it to film that was set up without stakes, it was introduced before the game needed it, and could then explore it. And then the connection for me and of all things, I was watching duel, like Spielberg TV movie, and there's a shot close to the end, it's really wide shot of the truck overturned. And there's just a single wheel spinning, and then a punch in for a close up of that wheel. And I realized, Oh, that's the same thing, that element was planted in the story, to achieve the effect of just that wheel spinning at the end. And so the conclusion I drew from it was, every element in the story has to be has to be laid in before the story itself needs it. In other words, you put these elements in as storytelling devices, before you actually need them to affect the narrative affect the plot affect the characters. And so that was the conclusion I drew. And it led to all sorts of good stuff that came out of that, that simple little moment there with green moss and a crash bandicoot game from about 2001 or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 47:39
Yeah, that's actually really profound. It's a really powerful tool that good writers and good storytellers need to do. And if I may bring it back to Mr. Jimmy Cameron, if you go back to the scene in aliens, where Ripley at the beginning of the movie says, Hey, I can I can drive that loader. I'm second level certified or something like that. And I go ahead and get into it, she gets into that loader, and she starts walking around starts moving boxes and stuff. There's the plant. That's the plant. That's the plant right there. Because at the end, when she goes and fights the queen, and arguably says, the greatest line in sci fi history, get away from her ubitx. It all came together at that moment. And it's all about that setup, payoff setup payoff entity, every good movie, they'll drop a little nugget in or they'll focus on, you know, the, the, the letter opener on the desk for no reason at the beginning. And then towards the end. I'm like, that's what kills the bad guy, you know? So that is something that screenwriters really should and storytellers and directors really should focus on trying to do those plants. And, you know, set up reveal setup reveals how to reveal or pay

Will Hicks 48:57
off. And that's it. Yeah, and that's exactly the conclusion I drew as well, just the power of that technique. But it's not just the the elements within the plot itself, the content, it's actually how you how you tell the story itself, the devices you're going to use to convey the narrative. So to connect Crash Bandicoot of all things to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, if you've ever seen that?

Alex Ferrari 49:21
It's a complete direct line. I completely see it, sir. Thank you.

Will Hicks 49:26
Yeah, we probably just lost all the rest of your audience. But no, no, if you look at it early on in that film, and they're going to show you all these different devices. So you had that scene with Jim Carrey, walking out a Barnes and Noble and into the living room of his friends. And wouldn't ask frickin scene. But then you go, Well, okay, they could have just cut you cut to the flashback of him in there with what's your deployment time and then cut back to the, to the living room, but they didn't. And you realize, oh, they're planning that as a storytelling device. In other words, Be on the lookout because we're gonna be messing with your perceptions in this movie. And we're going to be blending things like that and just cluing in the audience before the story needed to do it. And then once you've planted that device, then you can now use it because it's now familiar to the audience. And so that's what Crash Bandicoot David green moss, but the key was that little platform that was there were no stakes to it. And it was just implanting that as a rule in the story. And so really good films actually teach you how to consume the film, how to interact with the film. And back to what you were saying about plant payoff, or setup and payoff. That's allowing the audience to interact with it. In other words, yeah, you're on board with me, you caught my setup. And now you catch my payoff, and informs the audience includes the audience in that, oh, I get this movie, I understand it. I'm with it. And so then you start looking for those elements. And it just adds the entertainment. So anyway, it's about teaching the audience.

Alex Ferrari 51:02
Yeah. So then we can go back to Star Wars, again, with the plant and pay off, which is the force, you set the force up so much, George sets the force up so much at the beginning. And throughout the film, about the force, the force, the force, the jet has the force, the force. And at the end, when he's down, that he's about to shoot, and he's using his technology is that use the Force. That's the moment that everybody goes, Oh, my God, it's the power is not outside, the power is within myself. And that is such a powerful message. And it's so subtle, and it's it's wrapped around a, you know, a serial sci fi action movie. But that message hits so close to home for humanity, that any struggles that we have, if we actually look inside, we will find the answer. That's what that is. And that's what the forces and that's why people you know, there's actual people, you run the religions around Jedi, and all that stuff, which there's, there's books, there's the Jedi Bible, and there's all this kind of stuff. I mean, I'm speaking from people who obviously aren't watching this, I have a life size Yoda behind me, obviously, everyone knows that I'm a Star Wars fan. So but I do not go that far deep. I've never dressed up. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But I've never done anything I've ever gone that far. But that concept is so so so powerful. And one of the reasons why that film, and you obviously teach a class in this so are you on board with what I'm saying?

Will Hicks 52:36
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's that universal aspect of it. No, I've never been a you know, on a desert planet on a in a galaxy far, far away. And my dad isn't Darth Vader spoiler. I can I can relate to that notion that there's some there's something else there and that that ability is inside you. And even Vader has that line in the original Star Wars. You know, don't be too proud of the technological terror you've constructed. Yeah, not about the technology dude. It's about believing in yourself and, and then diving into kind of Lucas's background. And what led to the making of Star Wars. You see it this very personal story that's laid inside this huge, you know, your Death Stars and all that other stuff. It's at its heart. It's a personal story. That is I think it gets the best of both worlds.

Alex Ferrari 53:25
Yeah, it's about his dad. It's about his relationship with his father. Me. That's what he's very much. So that's what do I mean, that's what yeah, it's what what Star Wars is about. It's a personal story. So there's that added level as well, that you can sense there's an authenticity there in that relationship with with Darth Vader. And the best thing about it is that setup isn't paid off until the second movie, because we don't know that he's his father. We don't know that until, and arguably the greatest twist ending in movie history, you know, success aside, his empire strikes back office.

Will Hicks 54:03
Oh, no, that's money as a holy smokes. Now, ironically, at least my understanding is that wasn't the original plan. And that sort of came about it resolved a lot of story issues. And like, Oh, yeah, let's make him his dad. It works perfectly. And indeed it did. But originally, he wasn't the dad. But then you go, okay, Darth Vader, dark father, or whatever. But I think you're looking at that. It really is a telling moment. And it's one that I kind of think about a lot in that one particular class is when Obi Wan Luke asks him, you know, what about my dad, you know, everyone's like, Well, you know, Vader betrayed and murdered your father. And there's this little pause there. And I asked my students, you know, what's Obi Wan thinking right there and almost all of them are, it's like a is about the line. But the original intent was no it was just something pay. It was a painful episode, at least my understanding that Lucas didn't quite have that Father thing figured out that came about as a result of writing a parser expect,

Alex Ferrari 55:10
right. And that's the thing too is things that we see in cinema history that we're like, well, that's exactly the way it was supposed to be. wasn't at all the way the initial people were the initial creators we're thinking of I was talking to somebody the other day, who was telling me you should read the first draft of back the future. And then read the shooting draft back completely different movie. Did you ever read the first draft the Back to the Future?

Will Hicks 55:34
I've not I've not read the first draft, you should send it to me.

Alex Ferrari 55:37
So the first draft, there is no Clock Tower. There is no lightning. They were going to go to a nuclear power plant to recharge the car to go back in time. Oh, wow. That was weird. That was a whole thing. But then the studio said, Hey, guys, we don't got the budget for this. You're gonna have to do it on the backlot. And then Zemeckis and Gail both the Bob's both hooked up, there's a clock tower. I don't know what lightning hit it. And that's enough energy. All right, let's do that. Brilliant solution, a much better solution. It but but that's the thing, and a lot of times is there is Kismet that happens with with storytelling and things that I mean, obviously the one of the great scenes in Raiders of the Lost Ark is that whole scene where this guy is, you know, the wielding the knife and and there was I think Spielberg said he they shot it like six or seven times it was a full action sequence till Finally, Harrison just like pulled out a gun and shot them. They're like, well, that's the take, why didn't we figure that out? Before that wasn't on the page. But on the day, it just made the most part one of the best laughs of the entire movie.

Will Hicks 56:46
Oh, yeah, it totally takes what works. Were expecting this big, huge fight sequence. And if I recall correctly, like, I think Harrison Ford was sick with stomach flu like regular folks on the set were sick, I couldn't really do it. And oh, what an elegant solution. And it kind of goes back to that whole idea of limitations, fostering creativity, and coming up with a much more creative solution than what we intended. Because like, yeah, we can show all this. But, you know, just because we can show it doesn't mean we should. And I think the original Star Wars benefited from that, in the sense that I can't show you I don't have the budget to show you the entire galaxy. And so as a result, I'm going to show you a little snippets of it, which then allowed the audience to fill all that in. And, you know, I think when we look back at some of these films from you know, back in the day that were really well crafted, but they had all these limitations to what they could show. That was indeed exactly what they created, was a place for audiences to put the, to add to the story to interact with it and so forth. And so, you know, today, and even Lucas talked a little bit about it. He's like, Yeah, sometimes I have gotten my vision on the screen, and nobody really much cared for it. Okay. But to me, it was it was always, you know, when you George Lucas, you can do that. But to me, it was like, Oh, this is cutting against what cinema does best, which is creating these moments and allowing us to find meaning in them. When we provide the meaning as filmmakers, when we complete the picture, we kind of nuke the audience, we remove part of the entertainment value of it, because it's your vision and not our vision. Oh, it kind of goes back. Gosh, always relating back to Star Wars today, for some reason, you know, to the idea. I saw a picture of Lucas, you know, wearing a Han shot first t shirt. I'm like, dude, you don't want to change it, of course, on choppers. But it's really funny because then you go well, Lucas's version of Han, the character is very different than our version of Han. And we took in, so we're like, no, the character would never do that. But then Who are we? I mean, we're telling the dude who created the character, you know, like, No, your character would never do that. It's a co construction. It's us the audience saying no.

Alex Ferrari 59:04
And that's why there's so that's why it's there's so much vitriol towards Lucas sometimes about Star Wars because people are so passionate about the like, the prequels were an abomination. How dare you though the re releases were an abomination. How dare you and there's so much passion about it. And I always have, I'm always from the, from the school of thought, I'm like, it's his. It's his man. It's like, it's his painting. Yeah, if he wants to change a couple strokes, that's up to him, man. That's not art. Like we can enjoy it. But, but that's how it's his it's his blessing and his curse. He was so good as engaging the audience, but now he's got to deal with

Will Hicks 59:43
Yeah, and and then we go, that's not that's not how I put it together, dude. And so no matter what he does, it's wrong. And I think you know, as a filmmaker, he's like, Alright, well, you know, that is but I want to tell the story. So I will and, you know, go on for that. But at the end of the day, I think when something is so beloved, it becomes No, this is not how we built it. And, you know, it's like, well, that wasn't my intended at all anyway, as a filmmaker, so it is kind of a Yeah, it was a blessing and a curse, I think you put it quite well.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:16
And I think that the going back a little bit to that Indiana Jones scene, playing if you as a screenwriter can play with the expectations of the audience. So that perfect scene illustrates that so wonderfully, they were expecting a full blown fight sequence. And then in a second, we don't get it. And it's such a pleasurable surprise, because you're playing with our expectations. Hitchcock did that with the psychos with psycho and killing off the lead actress. If you can play with the audience's expectations a bit. In your writing. Again, you will work forever.

Will Hicks 1:00:52
Yeah, it's it's your message to the audience is what you're doing. And you're you're taking in, it's tough, because you go, well, gosh, and audience is made up of a bunch of individual human beings all with different, you know, thoughts and ideas. And so alright, how do I do that? And you actually create an audience, you can you build an audience, in your film, films start off as you know, the successful ones, in my opinion, start off as being aiming at a very broad, you know, sensibility, and then begin to narrow and become more self referential, they start teaching you things. Here's the teacher saying films teach. But then they start teaching you things inside the film. And those are those setups, and then the payoffs come along. And what happens is you turn a group of individuals into an audience. And by the end of the film, the film, most films typical becoming increasingly self referential, they'll rely back on things they've shown you earlier in the movie, in order to pay off their endings. And so films that do that tend to do really well, because it takes into account Yeah, I've got a bunch of individual people who are watching this thing, I can't please them all by no stretch. And I'm going to be communicating in a very indirect way. But what you do is you start to guide the audience into that place where you want them to be in the reaction you want to get out of them at the end. And so it's just inefficient, but that's the that's the power of cinema, at least in my mind.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:18
Yeah. And in there's also some films that and some stories that age, they're ahead of their time, and they age much better than they were when they first initially were released. So a film like Fight Club, which we're talking about the twist ending, it's something that you need, again, it's very much like the success where you like, Oh, my God, it's Yeah, and they go back and show you all the things you're like, you should have seen the signs you should see Santa but that story, I mean, you if it's still one of my favorite films of all time, you watch it today, it holds, it holds so brilliantly, even though some of the technology might be dated as far as like, you know, the computers and the windows and things like that. But the style of it, the storytelling power of that film, I still argue is probably it's probably his best maybe other than the social network. Because to make the social network interesting is you are a master. You're a master, man. It's a story. Remember, when that came out? And you're like, oh, they're gonna tell the story of Facebook cares about the story of Facebook. cares, in look. I mean,

Will Hicks 1:03:26
good. No, I was gonna say, yeah, both those films are superb, actually, social network is another movie I teach, and one of my classes just exquisitely structured. But if you watch it, it's going to use the setups and payoffs just brilliantly. And it's going to use some of the techniques we were talking about here in terms of being able to insert us inside the mind of that character, and how it does it. It just really slick. And like, okay, yeah, there's the craft. When we look at film, and in terms of being an interactive medium, and involving the audience, it's a collaboration with the audience. It's q&a.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:05
Oh, yeah. It is actually q&a. You're always asking questions. What is he going to do next? What is she going to do next? How are they going to meet what's going to happen? Is the bad guy going to get away? So it's always these questions and answers going back and forth. The audience. Good movies are. And I always like I always like analyzing bad movies. Like why doesn't this work? And you know, there's my favorite bad movie of all time is the room. But the reason why the room is so bad is that because I always say I always say this is like when movies transcend. They're so bad that they transcend to good. That's one of those movies, there's just bad movies, and the room is so bad that it becomes good. And if you analyze the room, which is hard because it's so bad, nothing works. Nothing works on a on a storage level on an acting level on a craft. level, none of it works. But the only reason why people stand in line to watch that movie, it's not because it's a bad movie is because the creator was trying to create a good movie. And that's what came out the authenticity of because he didn't call out to make the one of the greatest cult bad movies of all time. He truly believed he was making a masterpiece. And that's what made it so.

Will Hicks 1:05:26
Oh, yeah, that's the you know, the shark NATO's of the world. Which

Alex Ferrari 1:05:31
shark NATO knew. But shark Neato knew what they were doing the second they came up with sharks in the tornado. So it's and they tweak in it, but like, you don't see the people in lining outside to see Sharknado in theaters. You know, there's not people with fan clubs about Sharknado. Like not really the room. It's a frickin world life. Oh, yeah, I mean, we go to remember birdemic remember that thing? Again? birdemic. There. So that was conscious. Yeah, it was a conscious thing. And you can tell a troll to, you know, when you watch troll two, which I By the way, I felt my soul die a little bit after I watched that movie. Because it was so bad. I actually enjoyed the documentary about the movie much more than the movie itself. It was so bad. It was I can't I literally died a little bit when I saw that film. But that was a film that the director had a vision and was thinking and is making the greatest, you know, horror movie of all time. And there's, you're right, but it's it has to be unintentional. If you go in intentionally, it doesn't

Will Hicks 1:06:30
work. Yeah. And that was kind of the thing with birdemic. That sort of like, Ah, yeah, it just doesn't feel and it ties back into of all things. Truth. And it's that idea, you know, I have a filmmaker who's trying to capture truth, and you employ the audience consensus. And if we get the sense that they're just trying, they're purposely trying to achieve this effect by making it bad, then it undermines the truth of the film, and then we walk or we don't get quite the same reaction.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:59
That's a really, that's a really great way of looking at that. I never really thought about that. But that is I use the word authenticity, but it is truth. It is the truth. As a filmmaker, you you have this, this kind of social contract with the audience, that you're going to try to entertain them and you're going to try to do it and the truth of the story, obviously, Star Wars is not a true story. But there is truth in it. There is universal messages in it that ring true. That's why it's so universally Beloved, throughout the world, and we're still talking about a movie. That's what yours is now. I mean, 50 over 50 Is it over 50 years old at this point? Almost. Almost. 50 almost 50 Yeah, almost 50 Yeah. 77. So yeah, so it's almost 50 years old now. And I hate to say there's not a lot of films that are at that age that people constantly talk about. Rocky would be another one. Like you can watch rocky one right now. And if you don't know, the story of Rocky, it hits, it hits so perfectly. And I mean, as another person, we talked about Cameron earlier, Stallone, such an underrated writer. I mean, he created Rocky, Rambo, and so many other that he writes almost anything he does, I mean, but Rocky's you know, Jesus Christ, it's Rocky.

Will Hicks 1:08:21
Yeah, no, I mean, in many, many films later, and when you look at it, it's it's all character. It's you feel for this guy who's just kind of down on his luck. And, you know, it's not the underdog story. Sure, that's a component that feeds into it. But it's just another character who's aspiring for something and just things aren't working out. The Universal is that

Alex Ferrari 1:08:45
and they get a shot, and then gets a shot that nobody in the world would ever get. You get a shot at the idol, and you're a bum. It's, it's like, it's like a filmmaker going, Steven Spielberg just called you up, and you're gonna direct the $200 million movie. Yeah. But I've never been on set. Like, you know, and then that was called Project Greenlight, but not quite, but you know what I mean? But that's the equivalent of, Oh, my God, and he gets the shot. And he initially refuses it, as he should, because he's not insanely

Will Hicks 1:09:19
bright. And it's like, it wouldn't be very good. I mean, he just, you know, and he has to be persuaded if there's a reluctant hero and our you know, refusal of the call, mythologically speaking. But, but within the context of film, it totally makes sense that we understand why he would refuse, you know, because he doesn't see himself as being much of anything. But then he goes for it, which, you know, kind of becomes the, the message of the film,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:45
right, and then, and he needs Mickey, to convince him to do it. The guy who saw the potential in him, but he never saw it in himself. He needed that that mentor figure it all goes back to Joseph Campbell. That mentary figure that brings him That out of him. And in an even in his own mind, he has to tell himself the story and like, I'm not going to beat the champion of the world, I'm not going to win this fight. My goal is to stand on my feet and go the distance. That is the only goal I have in this entire endeavor. I just want to stand instead of distance with the champ. That's all I want to do when I stand there want to prove that to myself, I know I'm not good enough to beat this guy, because he's the world champion. And even that one little story arc, because they originally had them winning, they shot both endings. They shot both endings, the shot that he won, but they felt that the more powerful one is like he didn't win, of course, setting up sequels upon sequels upon sequels.

Will Hicks 1:10:44
But also, he did. And you're exactly right in the scene prior, he was there talking with Adrian, and he's like, you know, nobody's ever got to distance with Crete. You know, he's kind of doing his thing. And he's setting up, here's my victory condition. And then we see we see how it plays out. But yeah, it would have been, it would have been hammy and especially at that era. So we're talking 1976. So, you know, we're still coming out of kind of American new wave. And most of those films ended with downer notes. And boy, that would have been, I think, a big pill for the audience to swallow then, which is to have emerged triumphant, because like, come on, dude. It undermines Apollo's character. Because Apollo is the master of disaster, The Count of Monte Cristo. Suck it, you know? Yeah. And even, you know, pardon me for kind of rambling, but even thinking of the character names when you look at them, you have a rock going against Apollo, a god.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:42
Really? No, you you right? never even thought of that. But you're absolutely right. He's Apollo, the God and he's a rock. Yeah, hard, who's gonna win this? But rocks are good, lasting. And taking

Will Hicks 1:11:57
and taking, taking punishment? Yeah. And of course, you know, I mean, he's more along the lines, Rocky Marciano from a historical perspective, but just the, you look at those small, small details in there, and they just work so well for the story. They're just kind of one of the things where it all comes together. But know that the right ending for that movie is to not have him win, and have him win and self respect.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:19
And the funny thing is, is because I know still on wrote up until I think the fourth one, I'm not sure if he wrote the fifth one or not, but he might have put up into the fourth one. On its arc of if you look at the first four, Rocky's the setup and reveal the setup and pay off set up and pay off. You've built up this relationship with Apollo, where now Mr. T is the bad guy. And Apollo needs to help him. And that builds up that relationship to the point where rocky for you everyone goes, I still remember everyone, like they kill the power. They kill the Pope. And they'll just I remember that. So like, I'm like, you're like, why did how did What's going on? Then everyone rushed out to see the evil Russian guy. You know. I was breaking it off longer in arguably one of the best performances of his life. He has like six lines. And he, it's so amazing. But yeah, it was it was it was perfection. Even on that level, Stallone understood the audience and what he had built with those characters, and was able to just play with the expectations again, because if you would have told me after watching rocky one, I'm like, oh, in two movies from now, Apollo is going to become his best friend, and help him defeat a new villain. Oh, and by the way, that he's gonna have to pay revenge because some other guys gonna be like, you would have said, No, that's impossible. So you're playing with those expectations, again, over the course of multiple movies, which we've all hoped to have, at one point or another, we have the ability and the privilege to be able to tell a story over so many movies.

Will Hicks 1:13:53
Oh, absolutely. And then it ties in really to the idea of Apollo not being a villain. He's an antagonist. Apollo was the hero of Apollo story. Always. Yeah, and that's, you know, that ties into really good villains, or antagonists I should say. And so then it's like, oh, what a great What a wonderful way of kind of reconciling cuz I always liked Apollo. It was cool. to have him now helping or working with a hero. Oh, that's such is beautiful. What a nice compromise. Because No, he's not evil at all. He was trying to, you know, he sort of took the fight lightly as he should have. And despite hubris, which the ancient Greeks would have busted his chops for. And, you know, Rocky, you know, emerges trumpet eventually. But he was never a villain. He was an antagonist and kind of delves into a little bit of difference between the two and still in, Savile knew that he was able to provide that character with, you know, a tragic arc, but certainly an arc nonetheless.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:58
And that's the thing, even in rock You want Apollo? He was never bad guy. He never did anything bad. If anything, he was giving him opportunities. Yes, for selfish reasons because he wanted to get his image to be better. That was the reason why he you know, chose this ridiculous idea of bringing a nobody in to fight the champion you imagine like in the days of Tyson when he was at his power, like he just bring some bum off the street, who maybe had three or four fights or whatever, it gets destroyed. Yeah, but but the brilliance of it that he was not a villain. And I think that actually leads into yet another conversation, which is the part of a villain. And I think that bad villains and bad antagonists don't have good. They generally don't have a good story that they're telling themselves. So the idea of the twisting the mustache at the trail at the train station, while the woman is tied up in the heroes coming to save that story at the time was very like, Oh my god, but now you look at him like why is he tired? Or what? what's what's the purpose? Why? Why are you doing? You're just being bad for bad? That's boring. That for bad is absolutely boring. But someone like Thanos who, you know, they built Thanos up over the course of 10 years. Oh, yeah. Did you dripping him down like little little, little easter eggs throughout all those movies that knows as as a villain, because he is a bad guy. But his story that he tells himself he's trying to do good. He's like, Look, the world the universe is overpopulated. I think the solution for that it's just this kill half everybody off. You know, it's just very pragmatic, very pragmatic way of going about things. Is it wrong? Yes. But in his stories, like this is the only way I see I'm trying to do a greater good in a very bad way. And most villains throughout history, you start looking at, you know, power hungry dictators and things like that. And even throughout cinema history, the best villains always have just misguided visions of something good trying to solve a problem, but just misguided in solving that problem. Magneto in the x men, you know, he's just like, you know, there is no working with these people. We are the superior race. And we are now going to, to take over the world as mutants, you know, but then Professor X is his other side's like, No, we could work with them, we can help them we can. So it's like that, that whole thing. But he's an interesting villain, as opposed to just a villain like I just, if he would have said, I don't like anybody else, I think we're just gonna kill people. It's boring. It's boring. There has to be a better story.

Will Hicks 1:17:44
Yeah, and, and when we think about that, so we look at, like the protagonists and antagonists, we're looking at two sides of the theme. And when you have the villain, who's on the other side, saying just being evil, for the sake of evil, you kind of think, then it's like, there's no other side of the theme being presented. It's interesting, one sided, and that becomes propaganda. And we sense it, and we're like, okay, it's just, all right. And so it starts to lose those layers. And then that ties back in a little bit to with the idea that the shadow archetype, you know, when we talk, talk about hero's journey and such of the shadow represents a fallen hero, someone who was trying to be good, and when we look at their characteristics, you'll see Oh, there, they have a lot of wonderful traits. And then there's this one component typically it's it's related to selfishness. In other words, they're in it for themselves rather than for benefiting others. And that's that that dividing line. Example I like to use is Hannibal Lecter of all people. Who's a shadow archetype. When you when you look at the character really deeply, who turned

Alex Ferrari 1:18:53
who, and who turned into an antihero,

Will Hicks 1:18:57
yeah. Relationships cool, too. But it makes sense because it draws on their their fallen heroes, they're heroes who started out on the path of good or on the path to help others and realized, wait a second, I've got all these powers. nobody's doing stuff for me. And they decided to go into it for themselves. But if we look at Hannibal Lecter, as a character, and rattle off a list of traits, like Oh, he's intelligent, that's admirable.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:25
He's a

Will Hicks 1:19:27
good artist, if you recall, you know, the drawings. He he drew all those from memory, Dr. Electric, you know, that kind of? He's a fine, you know, I guess, could run like a recipe channel. That'd be kind of cool. But he's polite. He's exceedingly polite. Well, man, like well mannered, like, Yeah, he doesn't like the fact that to get multiple meanings. And in the next cell, you know, it was rude to Clarice so he had him swallow his own tongue. If we rattled this list of traits, it's like holy smokes, that guy sounds great. And then you like And oh yeah, maybe have eats people. It's one thing he said thing

Alex Ferrari 1:20:06
that one thing he eats people. And that's the brilliance of that character and of that story, it's that you love what you love Hannibal, you know you how you absolutely are, you are in love with a cannibal. A vicious killing, handled the cannibal. And, and that's the brilliance of that when you can love a villain that much. So much so that the villain then eventually turns into a hero. In other movies, in other movies, and even arguably in science of the land. It's it's, he's the one that helps catch the ultimate bad villain of Buffalo Bill, who has no redeeming value whatsoever. Not like he he's a sick, just sick person who has obvious issues. Obviously, she has to say the least, just a few. But there's no redeeming. There's nothing redeeming about him. He, I mean, nothing. I think the only redeeming thing about Buffalo Bill is his puppy. He doesn't hurt the animal he does. And that's like, his only weakness is like, you know, that was the thing that finally you know, one of the things that was the puppy, that's the only thing I can remember of that character that's even remotely redeeming that he likes animals, like you're reaching, reaching out that one.

Will Hicks 1:21:22
Yeah, it's a bit of a straight up. Dude. Okay. And that's exactly right. And so there's a difference between our you know, Shadow archetype and an antagonist. And so it's that notion of that fallen hero who kind of gave into themselves. And I don't know where we started, or how we got started on this topic, villains,

Alex Ferrari 1:21:46
villains and villains. And so

Will Hicks 1:21:49
it says villains who do have, like, okay, I can see your motivations. I get it. And once again, that ties us into how we relate to the film. We get it, we understand where they're coming from. And it's an intriguing question, what would you do if you were put in those those shoes? And the filmmakers pop? That is a question. And now we may say, No, I would never kill off half the population. No, that's just wrong. But I can certainly see where Thanos is coming from. So Chris character identification with the villain. Once you do that, well, you got a good playground to play in it much more complex character than just, you know, hanging out on the train tracks.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:24
I mean, so asking the question, if you had the power of the Infinity Gauntlet, instead of killing off half a million or half a half the population of the universe, why not double the universe? And have more places? Why not have more places for more resources, double all the resources, triple all the resources, make the resources infinite? With the Infinity Gauntlet? Infinity Gauntlet, do you see Thanos? You're wrong, sir. But, but that's but that's perspective. It's all about perspective on what he felt that was that was the way of going about it, but his and also, he had so much pain, because of that specific problem, where they killed off his family and all this kind of stuff. when he was younger, that that's why that pain caused him to go back towards the, I'll just create more resources to I'm gonna have to kill half in his misguided way to do it.

Will Hicks 1:23:23
Exactly. And notice what that does for us as an audience is that that clues us in as to who he is as a person. Oddly enough, it reveals his character and and isolates it down. There's something we talk about, like isolating the variable. It's a math term. But it's the idea that that personality trait, whatever it is, that drives that character, and I talk a lot about character design and design freak when it comes to storytelling. But what it does is it isolates it down to Yeah, you could have chosen that, but you didn't. And that tells us something about who he is. And also clues us into that aspect of pain, which can be relatable as well. And so really smart films will do that. where it'll, it'll say, Yeah, you've got this choice and you chose this. Why? You know, and it kind of questions implicit, and then we watch the film to find out.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:15
Yeah, so, you know, obviously one of the greatest villains of all time, Darth Vader, you know, at the core of Darth Vader, he's not a bad guy. He's angry. He he feels loss, but there's a humanity inside that villain. At the beginning, we don't see that we just see the bad guy. But during the course of even the the original trilogy, you see him arc to the point where he then becomes the Savior. He becomes the Redeemer he becomes redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi. But that villain, you know, and then once you go back into the prequels, you kind of see where all that pain came from, and the loss and everything like that, that turned him into what he intended. But at the end of the day, though, he's still he's still he was still a good guy inside.

Will Hicks 1:25:10
Oh, yeah. I mean, when you think about him, he's another he's similar to Hannibal Lecter in that regard, is always positive traits. He's strong, he's intelligent, he wants to bring order to the galaxy, okay, galaxy is a messy place, he's going to tidy it up. He wants to reconnect with his kid. Think about it. Luke never sent him a Father's Day card. And he wants to connect with them. Okay, that's nice, too. And oh, yeah, by the way, I want to rule the galaxy as father and son, okay. And you're willing to chop people and do a lot of chaos in order to achieve all these things. And so there's that, once again, loaded up with all these positive attributes. And there's that that trait that gets it What's wrong with that character, their character flaw? In some ways? You touched on something that's kind of cool. We can look at the idea between our protagonist and antagonist as one who arcs versus one who doesn't, and ask yourself this, check out check out movies. Typically, the villain does not arc they don't change, they don't learn the lesson of the movie. Right? Hero does and succeeds, right? The villain does not and is destroyed. And for movies, you mentioned seven earlier, Brad Pitt. You know, what's it about? Brad Pitt? doesn't learn the lesson of the film, and gets destroyed by it. Right, a spoiler again. But, but that's the idea at the core of the story. And at the core of what films tend to do. The successful ones in my mind, is when a character learns that and is willing to grow and change as a result of, you know, what the film is presenting them with? They tend to emerge triumphant when they're not, they tend to be destroyed.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:51
Yeah, that's a really great point of view. Because I mean, Brad Pitt obviously never learned the lesson. And the only person, even even even Morgan Freeman, he doesn't learn a lesson. He knew the lesson the entire time. And he was trying to teach it but yet he was like, Oh, my God, I've I failed, the whole movie ends on a downer. I mean, the whole movie is a downer. There's no question about it. Even john doe's character, he knew what was going on. And john doe, throughout the entire movie doesn't change does he doesn't want to change. Right? He's, he's a villain, and no one really knows why john doe does what john doe does, there was no, there is no motivation. He is a pure villain. From the beginning to end, and it he does have a slight a slight twisting of the mustache. But he does a slight a slight bit of twisting of the mustache because he doesn't have and I'm not going back into the movie I'm like, but for him, it's a game. And that and that's what moves and motivates him is like, oh, there's a new poem on the table on the on the chessboard, and that's, that's Somerset and Somerset. I'm Brad Pitt's character. And I'm gonna play with him. Now, that happens midway through the movie, you know, Midway, like, oh, okay, now the game has changed. And again, once that middle midpoint is a point of no return, it doesn't. That you can't go back now. Oh, no, no, john doe knows who you are. You're screwed. You can't go back. It's such a great,

Will Hicks 1:28:24
yeah. And oh, yeah. And it's the right thing for the film. But kind of going back to that midpoint, that's something you know, we talked about it from a structural perspective, you know, I refer to it as the apex or the big twist, where the film will flip on its head, just to kind of refresh this the narrative halfway through, because you know, movie can be long. And if you're hitting the same beats over and over again, it can feel really redundant and slow. And so watch, watch that 60 minute marker, watch that Apex beat that middle point of the film, and you'll see where they'll twist it just to you know, kind of revive the second act and add additional complications that'll lead into the third. Yeah, so yeah, no moment.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:06
It No it isn't. You start analyzing all the movies that are haven't had any success in the world. In the cinema history, they all have that midpoint. There is a point where the character can't go back to the ordinary world if we're using Joseph Campbell's, or terms. There is that point where you're like, Okay, I've now crossed the threshold. I can't go back even if I wanted to, I can't go back. So that that perfect example and seven. Once john knows who Brad Pitt's character is, there's no going back now whether he wants to or not, it's over. Now. It's gonna go it's gonna go down this road. And and that you need that as a story in the story. You do need that point where at any moment, that first half the character glucose, you know what, because before before he meets john doe, john doe sees who he is. He says, You know what, I'm just going to drop out of this case, it's just too hard I don't want to deal with this anymore. He could leave, arguably, for once john doe knows it's over, you can't go back. It's now out of your control in it. And what's the midpoint in Star Wars? I am trying to figure it out, let it off the top of my head, I can't remember. But there's a midpoint where Luke, I think it's been Luke goes off with with lb one. I think that's the point where like, you know, when that when that when the farm burns, like he can't go back home, there's the whole bird. So that's the point where like, well, guess I gotta go down this way.

Will Hicks 1:30:30
Yep, I only have one path left. And I have to pursue it and have to follow it. And yeah, it's one of the things that you know, when you think about different structures and different ways to approach your story, and storytelling as a whole. And I'm a fan of what I call a structural overlay, which are two structures laid on on on top of each other. And one is that Hero's Journey structure that we've been discussing. And another is what I call a turn structure, which is more of a character based structure. And it's the idea that through the pursuit of the plot of solving the plot, we reveal who this character is, what their flaw is what they have to deal with internally. That's that internal storyline. And if we really want to look at story in a very broad sense, or cinematic narrative, in a broad sense, I would maintain it's the external force of plot against the internal force of character. And these two things colliding. And it, that midpoint is where that that internal storyline starts to come up to the surface where we can see it and get at it, we may have caught it, we've hinted at it prior to, but now it's like, oh, in order to solve the plot of the film, whatever it may be, I'm going to have to change this aspect of my character. And there's the characters arc is what is presented there. So it really is two structures kind of laid on top of each other. And one is what I would maintain. Even things like save the cat, if you were to look at that, that approach in that storytelling model. It's kind of taking those two structural paradigms and spelling out what happens at the at those junctures there. But it really is those two things, that's a source material for all of it's kind of cool. But those two, those two structures that I just discussed, overlaid on top of each other one is telling you the plot storyline, and one is telling you the character journey inside.

Alex Ferrari 1:32:25
Very, very cool. Um, you know, we've been going on and on, this has been a fantastic conversation, and we can continue to talk about stuff forever. I have a feeling. But I also wanted to bring attention to your book, The screenwriters workout. Now, when I first saw the title for this, I was like, This is interesting. And and then when I started digging into a little bit of like, Oh, no, like he's talking about reps. He's talking about sets. Like this is like for a writer. So can you talk a little bit about the screenwriters works workout?

Will Hicks 1:32:55
Oh, sure. So that was that was the thought process. You know, it's thinking about magic mentioning earlier that Oh, yeah, I tried just about everything else I could other than film. And so I was a science major exercise physiology.

Alex Ferrari 1:33:10
Make sense?

Will Hicks 1:33:12
Okay, so it's like, yeah, there's the connection. But when you think about any sort of performance, sport, if you will, or even a performance art, you know, you go to the gym and you strengthen certain muscles, a strengthen certain aspects, so that you can use those in the pursuit. So as a football player, I need to, you know, be able to be very strong, so I can push the line of scrimmage and tackle someone or run through a tackle or something like that. And for me, I was like, why screenwriters can do the same thing? It's not that no, obviously we get we get better by reading screenplays, writing screenplays, and doing all those things. But we can also strengthen the skill sets that we go to gym and hit the equipment. And so what I tried to do is create a gym for screenwriters, where you can go there and strengthen certain aspects of your craft to improve your storytelling essentially. And so that was kind of the core approach to it. And then what I realized is, as I was going through the book is crap, I gotta do all I have to teach all this stuff, in order for the later lessons to make sense. So the first part, you know, has quite a bit of theory that's going behind it, so that you can get to some of the activities and exercises later on. That should strengthen your storytelling craft. A lot of these were honed in my classes. And so what I would do is try different exercises on my students that that as an evil scientist or anything, but like, hey, try this and see if it helps. And so I was able to kind of glean which ones seem to improve their storytelling to a high degree. And so then I tried to incorporate those into the book as well. And so it's kind of a combination of those two, two things. Some exercises are really, you know, kind of, you know, if you were a soup, what would you be like, what does this have to do with screenwriting? But what I'm trying to do is strength is stretch your mind in terms of understanding the metaphoric connections. In between the actions that characters take, versus the things we can see on the screen, you know, if they're eating a bola terrible example, eating a bowl of alphabet soup, I mean, everything on that screen has meaning to us. So we're trying to look for meaning in those in those elements. And so I tried to put together a book that would explore and strengthen those skills, in addition to your storytelling chops as a whole. Looking at it from a structural perspective, from a character design perspective, like I said, I'm big into design, I think most of the issues that we find in a screenplay are based on a faulty design right from the get go. And to not be overly eloquent about it, it's kind of like what I would call a chocolate covered turd. You know, it looks great. It's got you know, raspberry sprinkles on it, and it's all singles awesome. And then you take a bite and it's like, I got a mouthful of crap. And it's no fault of the writer per se. It's just the design the story wasn't designed from the get go to really work together and fit together, the elements don't quite go together right? And so no amount of artistry, no amount of of craft can can resurrect it. It's just doomed right from the get go. And so there are elements, you know, talking about that in the book as well. Just trying to really get it story design, in designing your story right from the get go and then providing you know, a lot of the other soft skills that go into screenwriting.

Alex Ferrari 1:36:28
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?

Will Hicks 1:36:35
Me and your other guests gave us a really good ones. Let's see. I'll try to pick some that perhaps might not be quite so obvious. The Devil Wears Prada.

Alex Ferrari 1:36:49
Crispy quit. Yeah, it is. script. So yeah, that'll that'll be one. My best friend's wedding. Another great script.

Will Hicks 1:37:02
I'll pick that one. In particular, that one for how the screenwriter named Ron bass. How he puts his acting description just kind of really cool. And then Okay, lethal weapon.

Alex Ferrari 1:37:17
Oh, well Shane Black Of course. He's just I mean just just for just for the descriptions alone It's the scripts are amazing.

Will Hicks 1:37:26
Yeah, and if you and if you want to stay in Shane Black world, I might suggest last boy scout the original set up that one via

Alex Ferrari 1:37:32
the original one. He was a surfer and not daymond Wayne's

Will Hicks 1:37:37
Oh, no. The the the script itself I think if you read the actual description in there it's it's it's a further distillation of lethal weapon. And and I pick those for different reasons. But most of them have to do with words on the page. Yep. And just how you how you create a movie on the page because it's not the easiest task to do.

Alex Ferrari 1:37:58
And if you What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today? Know your craft ultimately, it's all gonna boil down to that you know, right good or, but oh my god, that's a T shirt. That's a T shirt. Right good or?

Will Hicks 1:38:16
Yeah, most most of my lessons are like bumper stickers or like come on. Are means no No, no seriously it's know your craft hone your craft when you think you know it. You don't keep working at it. It's it takes so long to master the skill sets. It really does. And I think film school it's really cool. It serves a purpose of getting you further along that journey than perhaps you would do on your on your own. But it really is boiling down to a good story well told vibrant characters they will they will find out they will find out so find a home let it second guess the marketplace cuz you're gonna be behind

Alex Ferrari 1:38:54
every time every time. Yeah. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? I don't know. I'm still learning. No. structure is not formula. Yeah, exactly.

Will Hicks 1:39:12
There was you know, young younger me if I look back, it's like to Yeah, okay. You're trying to be this artistic Putz? Like, no, I'm a bus wreck. No, nobody's above the craft. Nobody. As soon as a filmmaker thinks they're above the craft. They just ended their career. Yeah, happen. Hitchcock. Sorry. But happens to a lot of filmmakers. But no one is above the craft. It is. It's, I think a beauty once you see it. But that would be the one lesson. It's just like, yeah, it's not just because it's a structural paradigm. It's not a formula. There's reason for structure. And it's kind of cool that way. And once you understand the reasons I'm kind of a why guy. It's like, Well, you know, versus we need conflict and film. You know, and I'm like Terminator. You know why? You just do why, you know, I keep asking In the same thing, it's like, oh, here's why. And you start to understand their reasons why certain things happen in movies. And it's, you know, you can try to reinvent the wheel, and it's totally cool. I can appreciate the impulse. But ultimately that wheels got to roll. If you reinvent the wheel and it doesn't roll, it's not a wheel. And and so, you know, sometimes in our in our well intention of, hey, I want to do things different in original and certainly that would that would describe, you know, how I wanted to approach the page. It's understanding, there are certain reasons why certain things happen in a film. And it's now you provide your originality to that provide the originality to the content on the certainly the form. And it's a long answer. Fair enough. But yeah, hopefully you can glean something out of it.

Alex Ferrari 1:40:50
And three of your favorite films of all time.

Will Hicks 1:40:54
Oh, I think we already discussed them. Star Wars. You got that one. That one? I'll just have to list. It's funny before the class I hadn't watched it in years. It was kind of back to what you were talking about. So Star Wars. Life is beautiful.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:12
Yeah, it's beautiful. I like the fact that it holds emotion. And then seven summer another and you can't go wrong with any of those at all. Well, man, thank you so much for taking all the time out. I know you have your busy schedule. You were in between classes right now. So I do appreciate you taking the time. It has been an absolutely enjoyable conversation about the craft and and hope we could do it again sometime. But thank you so much for dropping these knowledge bombs on our tribe today. So I appreciate it, my friend.

Will Hicks 1:41:47
Well, thank you and do it again.

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BPS 131: Directing Last Starfighter & Writing Escape from New York with Nick Castle

November 13, 2021July 28, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

OWe have today, 80s horror icon Michael Myers, also known as, Nick Castle. Director, writer, and actor – notable for directing The Last Starfighter (1984), Major Payne (1995), and Escape from New York (1981) among others.

Nick’s fictional character, Micheal Myers, in the Box Office $255 million-grossing Halloween film is possibly one of his most well-known roles that have been strongly supported by fans for years. He appears in the 1978 Halloween film as a young boy who murders his elder sister, Judith Myers. The same role is reprised fifteen years later in the sequel where he returns home to Haddonfield to murder more teenagers.

In 1986 he wrote and directed the heartwarming fantasy drama film, The Boy Who Could Fly which tells the story of an autistic boy who dreams of flying and touching everyone he meets, including a new family who has moved in after their father dies.

Filmmaking came naturally to Nick for a host of reasons. For one he grew up in a showbiz family. His father choreographed musical comedy films, while an uncle of his worked as a lighting designer on movie sets. At a tender age, his dad introduced him to entertainment through smaller roles in front of the camera and summer internships behind the scenes.

There he grew a fondness for directing which inspired him to pursue film school at USC.

Notoriety came quickly for Nick. Along with collegemates, Carpenter, Rokos, Longenecker, and Johnston, Nick worked cinematography and co-wrote The Resurrection of Broncho Billy – a short film they created while still in college that blew up and entered the academy consideration and won the academy award for live-action short film in 1970.

Nick and Carpenter reunited and worked together again on Carpenter’s 1974 sci-fi comedy, Darkstar, which follows the crew of the deteriorating starship Dark Star, twenty years into their mission to destroy unstable planets that might threaten future colonization of other planets.

In 1984, Nick made his second directorial film which was quite groundbreaking. The Last Starfighter, became one of the earliest films to incorporate extensive CGI. The plot centers around video game expert Alex Rogan who, after achieving a high score on Starfighter, meets the game’s designer and is recruited to fight a war in space. He’s transported to another planet only to find out it was just a test. He was recruited to join the team of best starfighters to defend their world from the attack. Its popularity resulted in several non-film adaptations of the story in musicals, books, comics, games, etc

Nick was making innovative films long before most of the more popular guys came along. It is appropriate to consider his 80s sci-fi films as pioneering.

Please enjoy my fun conversation with Nick Castle.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome to the show Nick Castle. How you doing, Nick?

Nick Castle 0:18
Really good. Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 0:19
Thank you so much for coming on the show. I I'm a big I'm a big fan. I you know, there's a bunch of stuff that you've done in your career that I that have shaped my life, sir. So I appreciate you coming on the show?

Nick Castle 0:31
Well, that's very kind of you to say. I assume you have some questions for me.

Alex Ferrari 0:37
A couple.A couple. Just a couple. So how, before we I always like to ask all my guests, how did you get started in the business?

Nick Castle 0:47
Well, I grew up in a family that was in show business, my father was a choreographer, an uncle that live with me, who was a lighting designer, and before that a trumpet player in an orchestra, you know, kind of a swing orchestra. But mainly my dad, you know, he, he worked with some of the, you know, very important musical comedy entertainers of the 30s 40s 50s, Judy Garland, Jean Kelly, Fred Astaire, he put me in a couple of movies, as a matter of fact, when I was a little kid, so I kind of had it a little bit in my blood, you know, he would have party, he did a show in the 60s, you know, one of these variety shows the Andy Williams variety show, and you have the, the Nick castle dancers and I would go on my summer breaks and work with him work, meaning getting coffee for the dancers, and, but mainly meeting, you know, you hang around, and you meet all these movie stars coming in and out what, you know, week after week, you throw parties at the house, you know, so it's kind of like, you know, I was bound to do some, you know, and I always liked the idea of, of that what the director did. And I gravitated to that just by osmosis, kind of and then wound up going to University of Southern California film school. And, you know, kind of, you know, tripped into that, that knowing what I was going to get involved with, I had no ambition at that time. This is during the period of late late 60s, you know, so I was pretty much a hippie, you know, thank you.

Alex Ferrari 2:32
Peace and peace and love and flowerpower got it.

Nick Castle 2:34
That's it. That's peace, love. And hopefully meet a girl, you know, I

Alex Ferrari 2:40
want Well, obviously, I mean, obviously, if you're not, yeah. And that motivated me to be a big time film directors. You know, you're not the people. You're not the first time I've had a director Come on, like, I got to film because I wanted to get chicks. I mean, seriously, this is, this is the reason why, you know, obviously. Now I know that when you were at USC, you met another budding young filmmaker, by the name of Mr. JOHN carpenter. Is that is that correct?

Nick Castle 3:08
That's absolutely correct. JOHN, and I met at film school, y'all must have been 1967 68. We worked together on a short film. He was the editor. I was the camera man. And we both wrote, I wrote the song and saying at the song of a picture called the resurrection of Bronco Billy, which was a short that the producer wound up, blowing up to 35 entering it as an academy consideration and we won the Academy Award.

Alex Ferrari 3:41
I didnt know you guys want the Academy, really?

Nick Castle 3:44
The four person crew gym. Ronald Coase was the director. We all wrote it. And and in john Longnecker was the producer and he wound up on the stage getting the gold trophy from Sally Kellerman. It was pretty hilarious. You know, to start off your career, we weren't even starting a career. We were just in film school, and just out of film school by that time, and then we hadn't I mean, it was all down.

Alex Ferrari 4:14
And a slowly, slow, steady decline for the entire rest of my career. And then you you work as it was in the camera, the camera department in darkstar.

Nick Castle 4:25
Actually, I worked as kind of anything you need, you know, slash actors slash gophers slash Well, you know, again, it was like a film. This was turned out to be a feature film, but it started out as a 40 minute short out of USC.

Alex Ferrari 4:42
Okay.

Nick Castle 4:42
Dan O'Bannon, who wrote alien was the CO creator of the project with john and yeah, they just needed some buddies to you know, really needed some hands in there they had a camera man a sound man them couple actors in me and maybe we Whoever they could drag off the street, you know, across the campus, they help them do something. So my claim to fame there though is is it was the introduction of me behind plastic being a character, which was there was a beach ball monsters least that's what we called it was painted to look like a giant tomato. And so I literally have it's subtle back then could get behind the thing and kind of do this to make it seem like it's breathing. So if you see that that's my first foray into acting as, as this turned out to be, you know, very limited part of my repertoire.

Alex Ferrari 5:35
Absolutely. Now, you, you also worked with john on another little, little independent film called Halloween. And that was at the time it and correct me if I'm wrong, one of the most successful independent films of all time, when it came out. I mean, it was an absolute, blockbuster runaway hit. And you also played a part in that, which I honestly did not know, until I researched this. I was like, Oh, my God, Nick played this shape. So can you talk about first of all, how did you become the shape? Or Michael Myers? And then how did and I've heard so many stories over the years about how that whole movie got put together? You were kind of there. So can you can you shine a little light about that?

Nick Castle 6:26
Sure. You know, john, I think did a after dark story, he is first independent motion picture after that was an assault on precinct 13. And he met some people after that movie that got a little bit of attention. It's a good movie. It didn't have a big release, but it it attracted some people in including erwinia blondes who had an idea for a babysitter murder movie, and, and brought it to John's attention. And john took it over and and off day when you know he I think he said he wrote it in like a week or a weekend with Deborah, who at that point Deborah Hill was, was a producer on the picture and also his love interest. Life. And so john was, you know, going to shoot it. Part of it. Yeah, at least pretty close to both where we both lived. We both live in Laurel Canyon, not very far away from each other actually. And one of the locations was down the flats in Hollywood. And I knew it was going to be close by so I said, I went over there. I said, john, I'm going to come by this set. They were setting up for the next week's shoot. And, and I said, you know, what? Would you mind if I just hung around? Because you know, I want to become a director. I'll see what you do. makes me look at all your mistakes and make sure I don't do it anyway. Okay, well, as long as you're going to be here, why don't you put on the mask later on?

Alex Ferrari 8:09
Oh, no, you're not stop it. I'm not going to put on the mask. Oh, but is that the is that the original mask?

Nick Castle 8:15
This is the original mask from the 2018 Halloween the original mask I actually kept for a while and then Deborah actually wanted it to so they could make the new copy for the Halloween too. But I never got it back. So that that is gone.

Alex Ferrari 8:37
But that is but that is a William Shatner mask painted white correct? Exactly.

Nick Castle 8:41
Yeah. The production designer who is also close friends with john. In fact, we're we're hometown buddies from from Kentucky. He he he literally went to find a man. Yeah, they had no money to sculpt something or no money at all. So I think they have about $300,000 to do the whole picture. So their, you know, production design, budget was minimal. So he went into a local Hollywood, you know, toy store and found looking for something that he could make into something and he found I think a clown mask that he thought was interesting. And he saw the Shatner minutes he saw Okay, I could do something with that. So he's really the genius when it comes to you know, because there's so many things that went right with that movie and had to go right to make itself successful and that's one of them I think is really the idea of the combat mask and the and the and the character of course, but it's spooky some of these very spooky he wound up getting.

Alex Ferrari 9:42
I mean, he was the he was the first Michael Myers was the first kind of as we kind of know it. The 80s Horror icons like Freddy and Jason Mike was the first one. And that that really kind of like kind face White gummy Shatner beater. This is like a star trek mask from the 60s basically. And it's a, it's a kind face. It's not like he doesn't have hard features. So that mix with the hair, and then just the, it's just weird. It was just, it hits you in a suit and almost like in a like, it's like a primal way when you see Michael Myers and then of course, the music.

Nick Castle 10:24
Oh, my God. Well, john really hit it out of the park there that, again, didn't take him very long. But he had an idea of, you know, the kind of timing, he wanted the simplicity. And he's a good musician, you know, self taught, even though his dad was a music teacher, you know, but he still is not someone that reads music, for instance. But he, he hears it, and he and he can play it, but and then also, you know, a couple of things that he kind of, you know, was in the forefront of which was that electronic music. And then using the, what was it the panda glide? That that spooky kind of airy? That was the first time that was ever used. I mean that the first time but one of the first times in, in most of the

Alex Ferrari 11:08
panic, it was kind of like the steadycam of its day, or like a little bit after it before our competitor of Steadicam?

Nick Castle 11:14
I think yeah, I think panic lag was just the one where a pan of visions version of it.

Alex Ferrari 11:20
Got it. Yeah. But it wasn't You're right. It was kind of like this souping, you know, because the first time you see that, even when you see it in the shining, you know, or you know, even when we think the first time they used it was on rocky wasn't in 76 went up the stairs.

Nick Castle 11:35
Yeah, it's one of the it's the the and but also using it as the point of view.

Alex Ferrari 11:41
That was the first time it was done. Right. And it was just very, like you're there. And I think that is what makes that film so damn spooky. behind the mask, you feel like you're the killer? Oh, it's very. Even today. It still works. It does it ages very well. Other than other than the clothes?

Nick Castle 12:03
Yeah, I think so too, is you know, john is a filmmaker, you know, he's just not a shooter. He understands the history of motion pictures. And and, you know, is a student of film. And so you know, that's brought to bear there. And you can see his raw, not just as raw talent, but as you know, educated talent, you know, there I think it's quite well done.

Alex Ferrari 12:25
And then you played Michael the entire time.

Nick Castle 12:29
Yeah, there were certain times when rindy Tommy Wallace, who I mentioned, put on the mask, because this is how cheap it was, you know, they had it there are a couple times when like he puts a Michael puts his fist through a door, or he puts his fist through a closet door. And and. and Tommy just said, Well, I better do that. Because I know where I scored the door. So if you miss it, and we put on the spot, there's no second door. I don't care about your hand. That's really just about the door, honestly, not the door. It's because the 120 bucks, they don't have 120 bucks. So that was the reason for that. Then there was a couple other things like they were snap men. And then there was a reveal at the end. It wasn't me they take off the mask. And it's a guy named Tony Moran. They just wanted a certain look for who Michael really look like. And they have little kids. So I didn't look anything like that little kid. So

Alex Ferrari 13:26
and you were so you were essentially just like hanging around the set and just like hey, put the mask on.

Nick Castle 13:31
Yeah, yeah, you'll see some behind the scene things. I'm just hanging around. I have the mask dangling out of my hand. No one knew. Of course, this would be what it became. At the time, no, no one had an inkling you know. And here I am like whatever it is 40 something years later. That's what I'm known for. I could do Last Starfighter tab. I can do all these other movies. Forget it has nothing to do.

Alex Ferrari 13:57
Here. Michael Myers, your Michael Myers

Nick Castle 14:01
And it's pretty bad. I mean, look, I have you know, I'm an action figure.

Alex Ferrari 14:09
And I do I look, I mean, you're exactly. It must be honest, it must be so trippy to be in an independent film. And then you're still talking about it. 40 odd years later, and I'm sure you're asked about it everywhere you go. And you see like that little action figure and you've I'm sure you've gone to conventions and events and all of those things. That must be so trippy. Like you were just like I was just hanging around the set. Like this means not like we were just chilling, we had no idea.

Nick Castle 14:37
And I mean, I've actually brought I mean we've had trips like going to Germany to go to London. And you know, it becomes a time when I can take my whole family my kids and their kids and have so much fun with and it's paid for you know, so it's it's pretty hilarious. You know, I don't deserve it in some level, be so lucky. But I take full advantage of it

Alex Ferrari 15:06
as you should, as you should, sir, as you should, because I'm sure the mask was very uncomfortable as high as it was, I'm sure you know, you have to get paid something.

Nick Castle 15:15
And of course, David Gordon green, who was the director on the new one, he called me, you know, before they started, he said, do you want to do it again? And I went, well, you know, I'm 70 years old. Now. You know, you don't want some old guy even though he's supposed to be old. Even though this means that.

Alex Ferrari 15:32
Michael Myers is technically Oh, yeah, this is supposedly

Nick Castle 15:34
40 years later, but they got someone that could really actually benefit from his physicality James, James, Jude Courtney, who wonderful guy, and, and brought a lot to the role and but I got to do these cameos. So it was fun. You know, I knew. And I was honored on at this on the set, you know, by the crew, they would, they would have to bow down to me because I am the original.

Alex Ferrari 16:01
That's amazing. So I mean, that's so trippy. That's, that's just so amazing. Now after Halloween, you jumped in with john again. And another classic film called Escape from New York. And you wrote that with him? How did you guys come up with Escape from New York?

Nick Castle 16:20
Well, I you know, john, first of all, john, right out of film school, wrote the first draft of escape in New York on his own Of course, at any rate, he wrote it and stuff like that. And then now what do I do with it? Well, you put it in the trunk, you know, was the drunk went off to do other movies? And then after he did, I think the Fogg the studio that did that they really wanted to get in business with him. They say, what else do you got? So he went to the truck pulled out this, kind of pitch them the general idea without, you know, saying that they have the script complete. And they loved it, you know? So then he called me said, Nick, I'm, you know, I really need another set of eyes and ears on this one, would you be willing to come up and you know, talk, you know, we'll just come up, have fun, sit around his pool. Again, he lived right next to me. And we'll talk about you know, you know, flesh this thing out, put some a little bit of humor in it. And, you know, I think he, he knew what I could bring to it, probably. So that's what we did, you know, we, we just had fun to do to friends lap laughing it up, trying to think of where snakes should go in New York, you know, well, you got to have a taxi ride, you have to go to Madison Square Garden, get to do this, you got to do that. And then, you know, forming it coming up with some nihilistic ending, which, which was pretty hilarious. And then, and then again, that was before I started directing again. So I said, Hey, I'm gonna hang out again. So I didn't get to play a cat. I did play a character in there. Actually, when the snake goes into the theater, there's a crazy show going on. I'm the piano player, playing the song that I wind up writing, I wrote for them for the movie. So a lot of fun. And you know, john was so gracious in the midst of all this stuff, because it was Yeah, it's nice to be able to hang out, you know, throw a few suggestions in. He's very collaborative that way. Great guy. And, and, you know, I learned quite a bit from from that kind of apprenticeship.

Alex Ferrari 18:26
And you shot on a you shot you guys shot because obviously you didn't take over Manhattan. So I think you shot and it was a Detroit or mission. Where was it? St. Louis? Oh, St. Louis. Yes.

Nick Castle 18:37
Those were the locations that I didn't go to I they were shooting. When they got back to LA I started looking at that. Then they went for a couple of days, which I went to, to to to Liberty Island, where they did this with the with the Statue of Liberty.

Alex Ferrari 18:54
Very cool. That must have been I mean, imagine that was that was a student with a studio project or independent project. They have studio aapko embassy, I think, yeah. Can you imagine a studio making Escape from New York? Yes, because they're always talking about making reviving Well, no, no, but like as an original IP? Yeah. No, I think it's an isn't isn't Robert Robert Rodriguez doing the the remake or someone else? I heard someone there is a remake in the works. Last time I heard I think was Robert Rodriguez. And he had John's blessing. And I think John's involved somehow. Well, John's involved like this. Where's my money? Do you have any like, let me think. Yes. Where's my Can I have a check? Sure. Sure. Go give me an executive producer credit. Let's rock and roll. Now, one of the one of the films you've directed, impacted me so much when I was growing up, which is the Last Starfighter and it is just one of those Classic 80s films I mean, in the pantheon of 80s. I mean, it's I think it's right smack in the middle is 8586 if I'm not mistaken 8484 I said it was around at 45 or six. So it was right smack in the middle of the 80s. It's full 80s everything, it's just wonderfully done. The story, the thing that was so wonderful about that story is that as as I was in fourth or fifth grade, at that time, I probably saw it a little bit later on VHS when it came out. But there you are the kid, cuz he's just playing a video game and like, wait a minute, I play video games. Wait a minute, this could possibly happen to me. And that was the brilliance of that story. Can you tell me how the Last Starfighter came to be how you became a part of it all that?

Nick Castle 20:48
Well, it was the The script was written by Jonathan badgal. remains very close friend of mine, great guy, again, talking about being in the trenches, you know, because when I read the script, the street I had done my first film tag, the assassination game was a little independent picture and lorimar saw it and like the way it looked, and, you know, young director getting involved with this would be a good match. probably cheaper to, obviously. But yeah, I'm getting an old veteran. And so I you know, I read the script, I thought it needed quite a bit of work. But the like you say, the brilliance of the storyline is just you can kind of like, it's so simple and so obvious, especially for that era, you know? Yeah. And john, I know, came up with the idea with it. And he's, he's a New Yorker, he went into a video game, parlor, whatever you call those things, and saw people doing this. And then he was reading I think, some version of sword and stone, King Arthur men, you know that there is something someone that's born for to be the leader and he thought, whoa, that's, you know, just crank him up. He's like that to play. We're talking about a guy with you know, where you, which is the most difficult thing is that coming up with the creative nugget, the idea that everything circles around that you build on that he's wonderful like that, and very funny, too. I think it brought a lot of humor to itself. That's only to say that we spent, I think, almost a year, maybe eight, nine months on the next draft of the screenplay, and, and the and so we were in a room together, you know, just making the thing work, waiting for them to decide to greenlight Finally, green lighted. And in the meantime, they had they had engaged a new kind of technology for this called digital technology. No one had ever heard of Yeah, they've someone said they did something in Tron but you know, that looked like it was.

Alex Ferrari 23:10
Yeah, cuz even even Star Wars wasn't digital. It was analog. Oh, no, no, no, no. Yeah. That was all. It was.

Nick Castle 23:17
Yeah, and those role models and stuff like that. So this was starting this had no physical element, you know, so we were we were in a way stuck, because of the the good price that digital productions gave for there to do all the visual effects with them. And kind of scarily, you know, they were doing research and development, as we were right around, doing the screenplay. So a lot of things a lot of, you know, balls in the air and a lot of, you know, a lot of things that were, you know, kind of difficult in and crazy. So, you know, again, another person in my life that I thought was what we'll always have Starfighter together. And then we had a good time. You know, the shoot was pretty easy. The post production took another year that was about this. I mean, for people listening, you guys have to understand that that the visual effects are in last, The Last Starfighter is

Alex Ferrari 24:20
so cut, it's a little bit ahead of its time. And you guys were basically in the bleeding edge of technology, emphasis on bleeding. Because I was looking at it, I was just like, I just recently went back and watch those. It's like, this is I mean, I'm a VFX guy. I mean, I do I've been VFX souping and I understand how things are done. I'm like, the computer power back then. I'm talking you're talking to 8384 and 8283. In that world, my God, like they were still using giant floppy. Like it's it wasn't like you could just get things off the shelf. So I yeah, it's amazing. How did you as a director even Did you use shot elements? Didn't you you shot like plates and things for people to comp in and stuff, right? Yeah.

Nick Castle 25:05
Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we had the the entire picture was storyboard and I storyboarded even, you know, all the just live action material that they didn't even have visual effects coming in. But we know we had some excellent people on the picture that two of which are still Well, one of which was is still a very close friend was the, the art director was Jim vessel. Jim Did he? He did. He just says everything

Alex Ferrari 25:38
he did, he's done. Okay. He's done. Okay.

Nick Castle 25:42
So you have that going for you. Then we had the master Ron Cobb, who's, who if you don't know, Ron, he, he was a production designer, he just passed away, unfortunately. But he was one of my best friends. And he, he just, he might as well have been a second director because he, he was such a good artist. He could, you know, he came up with all the character art, all the all the hardware, art, all the symbols, everything, you know, just he's a master at design. And, and he, and he was the one that could tell me what I could expect out of, you know, what, what, what, what digital productions would be able to do, and, you know, here's the upside, here's the downside, but here's what we should do. And it's why the interior for instance of the ship is so simple. I mean, I would have liked it to be on was cautioning going, you know what, I don't know if they're going to be able to get that kind of complexity into there. So let's go as simple as possible. So those kind of things were used. That information was important to kind of figure out what we were going to what we were up against. So great team, Gary Allison was a producer was, you know, just, you know, and ended and the son of the owner of the company, so that that helps

Alex Ferrari 27:04
to make sure you got made sure you had everything you needed.

Nick Castle 27:07
But not, but that wasn't only that. Gary's Gary's strength, he was also very, very good event. Very good at story too, and hence a lot of good ideas. And that's a good team, real good team. And like you say, it's, it's a it's a staple of the 80s. It's something that is always threatening to be either remade or made a sequel is in what what are the what's the efforts and rumors for years

Alex Ferrari 27:34
about it? So what do you have any updates on that? anything going on? Well, you know, yeah, I

Nick Castle 27:39
mean, back in the early 2000s, john, and I had a script with a studio, and it was really very close to getting started. But it just fell apart because of these complicated rights issues, because it turned out to be that two studios had Tommy has a plan to the rights. And none, neither of them would get into partnership with each other. And john had the rights to the characters. And then finally, within the last few years, Jonathan got the rights back because of the age of the project, I think. And now he has another way he thinks he wants to approach it. So there may be some tober all the Starfighter fans there may be in the not too distant future. Yeah, a new a new version. And what we what he has always wanted to do is no matter how long in between making a sequel, so it's not like a reimagining. It's not like Yeah, yeah, and and make, and this is something we wanted to do to you know, 20 almost 20 years ago now. When we wrote it, kind of prefiguring with Star Wars wound up doing doing the there 40 years later thing,

Alex Ferrari 28:52
right. I thought we were pretty clever. We came first even though we didn't get it. We had it wherever you are. Billions of dollars counting just just count. I I picture him in a Scrooge McDuck situation with with a gold gold nuggets. No, um, but yeah, I mean, they did it with Tron, which is very similar like they did that sequel. And I think that was you know, I loved about about the sequel about this, that they just, you know, brought in the old and brought in the new and, and I think that would be an amazing thing to be able to do with the Last Starfighter, like with today's video games. And, you know, virtual reality virtual reality. There's so many different angles you can go after with it. I wanted to ask you though, as a director, during that time, with bleeding, peeing on the bleeding edge of technology, I've had the experience of being on a project where I didn't know that if the visual effects were going to come through and the story depended on certain level like if the via if we can't make this VFX work. The movie doesn't work. And that is in in at the time that I was doing it, it was just like really at the beginnings of off the shelf visual effects, meaning like my team that I had, you know, we had that attack, but like, no one had really done it on this level on an indie short film. And it was like really high end stuff. And my guys were all kind of young, which, by the way, they all went off to do like Star Wars and Skyfall. And these guys all turned out to be amazing visual effects artists, but at the time, I was terrified. So I kind of had a backup plan, just just in case I could maybe cut that out or cut around it. But did you at some point? Did you just go, man, if this doesn't work, we don't have a movie?

Nick Castle 30:45
Well, yeah, no, that was always in the back of it wasn't just making imagine the studio that put the 13 or 14, whatever it was the million dollars into the thing that that up. You know, at one point, our visual effects coordinator, Jeff Oaken, who did a fantastic job to, by the way, saving Rs a number of times, he did the calculations, and he's you know, you know, at this rate, this will be done in five years. They can't sustain it, because every frame don't, you know, so long to render, you know, every frame. And, and, you know, even though they had what they called the Cray computer, which was a thing that looked like a giant sofa. It did have something you could sit on, and then all these kind of looks very, very, very 80s visual effects that live beautiful. And even though they have that it really did have the you know, the amount of power that's now in my

iPhone. Apple Watch. Yeah, it really and I'm serious. You know, I'm Joe. i'm john. Yeah,

I know. Yeah. And, and so your, your point is, yeah, yeah, everyone was nervous about it. And we just had to be creative, you know, things like, that's why I had to be there for a year. And then in post production, I'd be on the in post production at a terminal looking at the thing, and they would go, okay, that plane back there, it's never gonna, is it gonna get any closer than this? Because if it doesn't, we don't have to put all this other, you know, information onto it, we can just let it be kind of like a stick figure. And I said, No, you're good with the stick figures. But every shot every element, stuff like that, and we had to do in order to make it make it make sense. And then there were things that look are the worst, the worst of the effects were their inability to do terrain. Like there's a sequence where that where the ships are going to tunnels, forget and, and you know, they could not at that point, get the detail and then smooth out the edges and things like that needed to make it look and Jeff might have the he added whole plan of doing models for that. And in came to the production and said, Okay, let's look why the digital ship, but we'll do it in in models, and it'll look real, as opposed to this and, and the production set. How much is that going to cost? You told them if they said no, we have this much money, we're going to those guys said they could do it, they're going to do it. So I wound up in, in the final coloring, you know, just at some point I just kept going lower, lower bring down the the the lighting, so you literally you can see some of those shots, you can't even see where you're where you're looking at is for good reason. It looks so bad.

Alex Ferrari 33:47
That's amazing. So you just get darkening. So for everybody listening out there, visual effects are bad. Just Just darken it a little bit, just a little bit. Listen, I when I was in when I was in film school was 95. And I was working on a Video Toaster back in the day. And I remember a ship just doing a 3d model of a spaceship and moving it from point A to point B. That was five days. Yeah. And if it crashed, yes, start again. So I could only imagine what you guys

Nick Castle 34:24
it's, it's, you know, things weren't invented, for instance, motion blur, which for your audience, like right, you know, you know, car goes by and, and, you know, you you kind of see it in a swish of colors and stuff like that. Well, if, if, if, if a ship went like that against your camera, it would pixelate because you have to instruct it to have this blur. So they had to invent motion blur for the movie, and they didn't know how to do that, you know, things that are kind of simple physics in in models or not. simple physics in the digital world. So you know, there's a lot of very inventive people talk about people in that world that went on to do work, you know that they they all are, you know, Master technicians.

Alex Ferrari 35:13
It's remarkable. Yeah. Now, when you you also got involved with a friend of the show, Mr. James v. Hart, who's been on the show a few times. And you work on another one of my favorite films growing up, which is hook. And you work with Jim on hook. And I've heard the story from his point of view that his son said, Hey, what happened? If Peter Pan grew up and all that stuff, how did you get involved with him on that? Well, Jim,

Nick Castle 35:44
as I say, I had done a movie for TriStar and the, the people there were fond of the movie liked working with me. And then the, the same producer of Last Starfighter came to me with Jim's idea of exactly what what you do what you just said, I'm sure Jim does a wonderful job of giving the background with this son and like that, talking about another. This was very Starfighter in a way what a kernel of an idea that you can build.

Alex Ferrari 36:23
It's like, it's so great, that you can't believe that no one has ever thought of that. Like what happened to Peter Pan grew up.

Nick Castle 36:31
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's just such a wonderful notion. So similarly to what I just explained in The Last Starfighter, first of all the, the, the, the company said, okay, Nick, you're gonna we like you, we like the idea deck, will you work with Jim on the on the screenplay, develop and develop it with him, I went, yeah, because this could be great. So again, this was another one, which I don't know how long we took, again, another at least a half a year, maybe more, just going over it coming up with you know, coming up with the structure. Some of the details, and, you know, Jim went off and wrote it, and we get back together and this and that. And we came up with I thought, a very good first draft, you know, solid first draft that went out to the movie, the stars that got interested in at that point, I was going to direct it. And, and then the studio got a little cold feet when they saw how big this could be. You know, and so without going into any of the gruesome details, the the the picture, then eventually got to Steven and Steven did a very nice job, I think on it, and brought in some brought in some other talent to help Jim with some of the, some of the net the next, you know, some of Stephens ideas. So it became what it became. So it's a it's a, it's a, it's a solid piece. And, you know, I was always really fond of that. And, and because again, back in the trenches with someone like Jim, we became very close from that. Now, did

Alex Ferrari 38:15
you get to hang out on the set?

Nick Castle 38:19
No, I went on to do some other work, you know, and and I had a couple of screenplays I wanted to write that never got made. I see. I use my time that I By that time, I didn't need the finish. No,

Alex Ferrari 38:30
I understand that. But it's still it's from what I heard, it was that one of the everybody took the visit of that set, because it was the most remarkable production set just like the people were just visiting it just like Jesus, look at this. They I mean, it was all the talk.

Nick Castle 38:44
And the other thing that I remembered, I did visit the set. And what was interesting about that is the camera man from Halloween, did hook Dean candy. So I knew that that gang and he had some of the old gang from Halloween. So I did get to say hi to those guys. Which was a lot of fun. Very small, small, small business, isn't it?

Alex Ferrari 39:10
Now, when you write, by the way, do you do you outline? How would you What is your writing process?

Nick Castle 39:17
Um, most of the time, I will. Whatever notion comes, I have a yellow pad, you know, here's a little version of it. This is the version but usually a big yellow pad and just start, you know, kind of idea, idea, idea idea. First kind of, you know, pages and pages of ideas that come to me, and then at the point where I go, Okay, I get it. I think I know where I'm going. I have a beginning, middle and end. Then Then the next page that goes is, you know, scene one and start again still longhand, you know, going through it coming up with ideas, maybe some dialogue notions, things like that. Before I get to the computer at the best originally typewriter,

Alex Ferrari 40:06
right? Now do you start with do you start with the character the plot? What comes first?

Nick Castle 40:12
It really depends on the project what what the what's driving the interest of the project. Sometimes it comes from not even made, like for instance, I did a movie called tab. Yeah, about pregnancy. Apparently that came from and back the same company lorimar, the same owner of the company, the same producer that I work with Atlanta Starfighter. Merv Adelson came back from New York once and I was talking to him, you know, walking down the halls of larmor. And he said, Nick, I know your dad was a dancer, and he was a tap dancer, right? And yeah, I said, I just came back from watching 42nd street or one of those, you know, silly, you know, yay, tap dance movies. And he said, Let's do one. Why don't we do one? Yeah, why don't you come up with something. So there's a situation where you have a subject, you know, no story, no character. But you're given this kind of on a gift, because I just thought, Oh, my God, what a gift I, I always wanted to do musicals coming out of film school. And that was a love that I had, you know, from my dad, but also, just from my own experience, looking at the history of film, I just love Vincent Minnelli, for instance, I just love the classic, classic work there, and that there's something thrilling about that work. So I spent the next six months or so investigating what was out there, you know, just in terms of talent. And I came very quickly to the idea that there's only one person there, Gregory Hines, that's, that really exemplifies you know, the spirit of the tap, tap it he and then I then that's when I started to come up with a story. It's a very weird way to do a movie. And usually it shows I think I'm you know, I'm happy with the movie, but it shows it's, the weakness is in. In starting with an idea and the setting, instead of a character, a lot of character a lot. Yeah, something like as, like we were talking about before, if you have the idea of what happens if Peter Pan grows up, you know, boom, you know where to go with that

Alex Ferrari 42:22
character. You just started with character. Yeah, please. Yeah,

Nick Castle 42:25
exactly. Or a situation like, you know, The Last Starfighter where it's like, you know, what, if you were, you know, so this one is, yeah, it's, it's, it's a little backwards. And it's a tough thing to pull off. I wouldn't suggest that necessarily starting with that. But sometimes you're told, like my first movie called tag the assassination game, same kind of thing. And not directed then. But my, my neighbor came up to me and said, Nick, I have some people that want to do this, this, that this crazy movie about this craziness going on college campuses called assassination, or I forget what it was called, it's like rubber tip dark guns, then you go around stuff, where you couldn't do that now, but so

Alex Ferrari 43:09
much, not so much. Not so much nowadays. But you can see how innocent we were, oh, my God, people don't understand how we're alive is beyond me. I talk to my wife all the time. Like, how did we survive our teens? Like in our college years, I mean, things you do to yourself at those at that age? Oh, my God, it's insane. But there was a situation where, you

Nick Castle 43:31
know, I agreed to put together a little draft of a treatment, you know, based on an idea in a newspaper, as opposed to, you know, so that one kind of helped itself because it seemed like once I thought, Okay, then the game goes for real. someone gets cross crazy and starts using a real gun. Okay, now I know what I want to do. Boom. So those are the kind of things that you know, there are different things like, the boy can fly, which I did. Well, came from my friend Ron Cobb, who I mentioned before as a production designer, he was going to do the original et he was directing at work. It was a horror film before it was what it turned out to be, when Steven saw that saw it when I'm going to change this, you know, and I think I'm going to direct it. So I'm sensing kind of,

but, but, but Ron was talking about how the character was going to be maybe autistic. This this kid. I didn't know much about that. But I really found that fascinating. And so I thought I'm going to I want to think about this second kid who's autistic that is, it almost seems like they're magical. And at the time, I was reading Dumbo to my kid, you know, so you You put the two Yeah, I know. I know shuffled around and then blink, the light goes on. And then you have a movie, you know,

Alex Ferrari 45:07
etc. I think someone has cut online somewhere a trailer as easy as a horror movie like they've edited a trailer, that's a horror movie. And you could easily cut from that movie, you could easily cut a horror movie. But that would have been an interesting, interesting approach to say the least. Right now you also worked with Jim on another one of my favorite films, which is August rush, loved August rush. And I've had Paul on the show, I've had Jim on the show, and now have you so I'm now that's the trifecta. So from from what from your point of view? How did you get involved with that project and mold it into what it was because it was kind of a meeting of minds, if you will, taking it to the different places?

Nick Castle 45:49
Well, this was another project that came to me through the producer, there was a screenplay by Paul and it, it what it had, was a great notion, a great character, that, that this kind of, again, a kind of kind of real, that surreal sense about it. But again, a way to a way to talk about the magic of music in a way that you know, that that we all kind of love it and, and it moves us we don't even understand what that is that moves us. I just love all that. And the fact of putting it in a character that has somehow embodied it, you know, and Paul had it going off to a certain certain, right, right field, you know, with the basketball, and the kid grows up and stuff like that. And when I ran it, I came up with an idea, I think that that solves what what would create the essence of the storyline, which is the kid lost his parents, and the, they're both musical people. And he's born without them, and he still needs them. And the way he finds them is through the music, he doesn't grow up, you know, like, it was in the original thing, but he goes on a journey to find them. And in the journey he finds it become it becomes a little bit of, you know, you know, a classic English character, you know, who, who meets various nefarious and friendly characters on his, on his journey. So it was a journey movie, but but based on this kind of instinct that this kid had for being able to, to hear music in anything. I also, it was a it was a notion I had in tap to that there's a scene in that movie, where I came up with the idea that the father had got his rhythms from the sounds of the city. So he would hear like a car going over a grading, and here did dump a tempo. So he would take that and go down to dub dub start, you know, but you know, so that idea that the mind creates a, you know, a connection with with me. And in that case with the city. So there was something about that I thought was was fantastic. That was in Paul's original idea to expand that. And, you know, so we went from there, and then I wanted to direct it, you know, and I Stephen

Alex Ferrari 48:39
didn't do this when Steven didn't do this. I know that he didn't get that one from your neck. He didn't do

Nick Castle 48:47
but but the producer wasn't sure he wanted to keep his, his his his idea his options open. And this before I did my draft, by the way, so I said, Well, I got a DIRECT address. I'm not going to do it. So I walked away. And about, I don't know, five months later, I kept thinking of it and thinking of it and going god damn, I know how to make this thing work and it's gonna be really cute. And so I went back to videos and said, okay, have you got it any further? And he said, not really. And I said, let me come on. I'll just I'll just write it and and we'll see how it goes. So that's what happened. I just wrote it and it got to that it got to a stage where you know, it looked like it could be you know, he could attract some money in a studio. And then Jim came on and just really did a nice job embellishing it bringing in characters that it needed to and you know, really kind of

Alex Ferrari 49:42
brought it home. Right and then the second Robin Williams said, Yes, it was a go picture.

Nick Castle 49:49
Robin Hood, and you know, the I never I didn't meet Robin on hook, and I didn't meet Robin. But I didn't meet Robin. Somewhere in between there at my friend's wedding. To his friend of his, but we never, we never, I've never, I never did. And of course, I never will know, I have had the chance to just kind of sit down and say, God, if only we almost I would love to have a relationship with him because he just seemed like such a great guy. Yeah. Jim Tim talks,

Alex Ferrari 50:17
just I mean, we have a long conversation about Robin and his some hilarious stories of stuff that they went through from being on hook and, and an August rush and stuff. But Robin was, I had a chance to meet him for 10 minutes one day. And I, you know, it's something that you don't forget. And he wasn't on that day, and he wasn't cracking jokes. He was just normal. And it was actually a few months before he passed, which was really, it was really rough. But I had the pleasure of meeting him was it was in Jim said, it wasn't he was on the show. He's like, you know, that the script was going around town and this and that, but then that Robin Williams said, Yes. And it was automatically a go picture, like instantly that like, okay, here's X amount of dollars, and let's rock and roll. And he was one of those guys that could just the second he said, Yes. Everybody said yes. with him. It's, it's nice. It's nice. It's nice if you have that kind of power. Now, when you when you directed that first film, the tag the assassination? What was the biggest lesson you pulled from that? as a as a first that was that was the first time you directed a feature?

Nick Castle 51:29
Yeah, yeah, that was the biggest lesson I learned. While I as I got his lesson going forward. You know, I think it was a lesson and I and, and, eventually, something I look back at and go, Oh, was the lesson, the correct lesson, I'll tell you what to be prepared. You got a million dollar picture, you have 25 days to shoot it. And, and you, you, for a young filmmaker, I wanted to know every angle every over, you know what, you know, making sure I had the right? eyeline for every shot, don't cross that

Alex Ferrari 52:20
line, don't cross that line,

Nick Castle 52:21
don't cross the damn line. have been at every location, have storyboarded everything, at least in my own little scribbles so that I could I could approach the the production from the standpoint of professional, you know, you want to go in your your, you are the leader of the game. And you you want to be able to impart a certain amount of, of, of stability to, to the to the crew, so that they do their best work, you know, so I think that was it. But why is saying that that that was also problematic is that you can get so stuck in that in the in the barriers that you put up for yourself or, you know, here's what I'm going to do here is that you lose a certain amount of spontaneity that you can get from the set. Not that I didn't do that. But I remember one time on the set, my favorite moment, and it's no one would ever notice it. Hamilton is talking about something he says something very, you know, know, something dramatic. And right in back of it was a barbecue at way in the distance. And I had I said Oh, good, Hey, get some fluid, get some barbecue. And when I when I do this, you throw the barbecue in the background. And so she says this thing, and then the fire goes up in the background just as a kind of hit. That was my favorite part of it. Because it was so spontaneous. Yeah, and you get a lot of fun out of that. And I think I think that's what a lot of good directors look for. And I took me a while to try and maybe maybe it's been a you know, part of what I look back on and don't like about what I did is that sometimes it's just too, too too much on the horse holding the reins back, you know. But as it starts that's a that's a gift. And it's something you have to watch out for, especially as young young people they want to, they want to do it right, you know, and you get and it's scary doing that. So you want to be prepared. You want to have it all together. But you also have to open up to what's available to you too.

Alex Ferrari 54:29
Yeah, and that's a thing though, I think that you just that's that's time and age and experience like your first move. You've got a first time director out there who's just like, let's play jazz out here, everybody, let's just do this or that you're scared to death because the guy's never done it before the guy hasn't done it before. So you I guess those first features have to be a little bit more tight, you know, but then as you get older and you do more stuff, then you just become much more relaxed. And I always I always equated to being like catching the magic. You know, catching the thunder. lightning in a bottle because there's things that you will never see, other than when you're on set the magic that the actor brings, or the or the the environment brings, or something happens, you just see a barbecue in the background like, wait a minute, boom, throw something. That's something you can plan for, you know, now did you did you also have like, because I do this all the time, when I go on set, list a shot list that's obscene, like, handed over to the first ad. And the first thing is, oh, ad shots. Okay. All before lunch? Oh, okay. And those first days, I was so prepared. That's what I would give them. And then obviously, I would get for now I'll do like 40. And I'll just tell him, I understand. We're not getting all of these. I know, we'll get 10. But they're here just in case things are just flowing. Is that was that your case? as well? Like? Did you like over a shot list? Something that people are like that you're insane?

Nick Castle 56:01
No, you know, I was pretty conservative in that way. You know, I kind of I kind of could see how long it would take to light. dosh was, which was, you know, so I prepare for that, that would be part of my calculus, I would have, you know, especially like we're saying, for the early shows, you know, I would have the shot list boom to my assistant, the Assistant to the ad the ad to the cameraman. And we pretty much have the day plan. And down to the inserts, you know, so that but and like you're saying too, as things went on, I would be laughs maybe just get bored with that kind of

get lazy.

While you know, you get lazy and you just go Okay, I know what I want. I'll just give them a general idea. And I said, We're fine. Don't worry about it. We're fine.

Alex Ferrari 56:52
Right? But that takes time. And a lot of first time directors don't get that or even young directors don't get them like you know, at a certain point. Like I'll just walk on a set and I'm just go. Alright, here here, I'm not going to storyboard out a dinner scene. Like unless it's something really elaborate people before I would need that security blanket. But now you're like, Alright, put the camera here. Let's go here, the dolly here. Let's rock and roll. And that's. But when you get more elaborate with some sequences. Yes, storyboarding and previz. And all that would help. Now you've I mean, you've worked with some amazing actors over the course of your career. Do you have any advice on how to direct actors, especially for young filmmakers? No. You're screwed all of you. I'm sorry.

Nick Castle 57:39
I say that, honestly. You know, I'll probably come up with something as we speak. But, you know, we weren't, at least at USC film school during the years that I were that we didn't have any education. In us in, in dealing with actors. We, it was the one thing that I'm sure they must have corrected.

Alex Ferrari 58:05
mean that Nina folch, the coach, she had a legendary class there that I I've taken because we've got recorded before she passed, and I took it, I was like, Oh, my God, and everyone from EDS awake? And I mean, they all took those classes, and they're like, Oh, my God, it changed the way Yeah, so they did face it, but you were screwed, basically got it, you should actually get a refund for a little bit of the tuition. Yeah,

Nick Castle 58:29
exactly. So you know, I didn't I just would be sometimes playing it by ear Can you know, the all the the actors have different processes, you know, you can't assume that you're going to say, okay, we're going to have a two week rehearsal period. And you're going to come in here and you're going to do this and you're going to, it's, it's something that the, I guess the first thing would be is to have dinner with your actors, and get a sense of who they are, and just have a rapport that's independent of this of the story, just to get a feel for how, you know, what their personality is like and, and what what to expect he or she can get a little sense of that from their own histories. So but it's, but most of what I did, as a director was came out of the general sense of, you know, my understanding of human psychology, which, you know, you don't have to take necessarily a course for that you just have to be kind of aware of it. And and then, of course, like, I probably are closer to some of the directors that are more about making sure that they have just hired the right person that they there and a lot of the people that you get you can get are themselves filmmakers, you know, they understand the filming process, they understand. You know, everything about it and the difficulties some of our summer prima donnas? You're gonna have to deal with that, of course. But a lot of I've found a lot of people are, you know, they understand when you when we're, how the process works, you know where you're going to, you know, and you try to make the sets as comfortable as you can. I think that's, that's another thing I think it's so different from director to director to actor to actor, my my theory was to make the set itself just a fun place to be, there would be no screaming, there will be no, you know, not even just between me and the actors, but between anybody and anybody else, if you have a problem, let's take it back and discuss it. You know, just so you know, you feel like now, some people do it the opposite way and they get a lot out of the confrontation, you know, the tension, maybe it works for certain things.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:56
Yeah, from from from speaking to you here for this hour, your energy doesn't seem to be that guy. The yeller the screamer, you seem the the happy set, the collaborative set the nj we're here to have some fun set. But I've been on those other sets where they thrive on confrontation, they thrive and it pushes them to another place. But that's someone else's process. And hopefully you signed up for that as an actor. Is that a surprise to you? Now, I'm gonna ask you the last few questions asked all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker starting in the business today? Well,

Nick Castle 1:01:34
it's funny because I was just talking to a young filmmaker, it depends on the your, your skill level, and what you're looking for, if you're talking about becoming a director, the the artists, the, the, you know, the person in charge of the film, the thing that was very instrumental to me in, in, and in the days and weeks, leaving film school was one to have a film that I had done, you know, now is the best time, I think in the history of motion pictures for young people to be able to produce direct, write, edit, and finish something you can actually see on absolutely no money, assuming you can, you know, you have friends and colleagues and you know that that will help you. So that's, that's a big, that I think was very difficult for us to do back in the day. And then, but the other thing that you have control over is the screenplay. And anybody that's a filmmaker, I think, should be a writer. And some people have different skills, but I think that's something again, that no one can ness, no one can. It's not, it's, it's, it's not a collaborative medium. It's something that you are there, you and the typewriter, and the I mean, the keyboard, and, and you can finish something and have something a product that, that that shows your talent. And if you have good ideas, I mean, you're you're not going to as it as a filmmaker, you're not going to walk in someplace and say I want to be a filmmaker, you know, you got to be you've done a little short, which is, you know, is a is a wonderful of a tool, or you have a screenplay, you know, that's and that's both of those things now, are available to you. And the other thing now, getting to that point, getting to that point that you have something valuable is the other thing that you need to do, which is learn the history of film. There's a lot of it out there.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:44
A couple of things.

Nick Castle 1:03:47
Yeah. And there's so much one of the best things that go into USC film school as a matter of fact, I've felt was not just meeting that individuals that would wind up working with and, and getting a lot of, you know, help from like john, for instance, but it was the film retrospectives, you know, there'd be you know, there'd be Preston Sturges festival, there'd be a Western festival, there'd be people coming over talking about films, all that stuff just goes right into here, and it stays there, you know, if you if it stays in there, and you start to create your own sense of I wouldn't say ethics, the aesthetics,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:26
style,

Nick Castle 1:04:28
yes. aesthetics and, and you start to find you, you know, as a as a as an artist, so and then you know, the other thing that I remember john Houston saying to that question, I went to a on the Queen Mary they had, the Directors Guild had a had a weekend of john Houston movies with john Houston Paul. Great filmmaker. And these And he, he's someone asked what should young people do to get in debt to become filmmakers, he said, read, read and live, read and live. It was very simple to him, you know, you have to experience things you can't just experience. Now we're talking about learning the history of film, you can see yourself sitting in front of your 60 inch TV, watching the latest, you know, Steven Spielberg from 1975, or something, and think that's filmmaking? Well, that's important. And going back even obviously, further is important. But actually having something you passionate about, that only comes from loving reading, and that's something that can be forgotten in the world. That is, this can be such a mechanical, you know, mechanical art. And it's one of the good things about the new technology, by the way, that I think is that you're not necessarily confronted by this giant camera anymore. No, it's this suit. Right? Right, which I always found intimidating. And he had almost no physics. Oh, really?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:15
Oh my God, when you get that first, like, area 4435 or 535 up with off candidate and it's on a pan of vision Jesus Christ, like and you needed a degree just to turn the damn thing off. It was no,

Nick Castle 1:06:30
yeah, but along with the, you know, the intimidation of being on a set with all the other things, you have to do that with that giant camera, the one thing that which we've been talking about is to be able to sit, sit back and be able to assess it on the bigger picture, you know, literally not upon but a bit bigger picture of, of how it's playing, that, that's, that's the, maybe the most difficult thing to be, as to understand is to, to be able to keep the keep that story, you know, fresh and, and the and, and in those bits and pieces that you do every day, that continuity that that has to be there for it to feel like a real a real story a real real, you know, real movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:22
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life of the air? Yeah, I

Nick Castle 1:07:31
think it it is that same thing in a way stepping back to smell the roses or flowers?

Alex Ferrari 1:07:37
Enjoy the jump do it?

Nick Castle 1:07:38
Yeah, we are. We're doing it right now. I'm trying to think of how much more I can spend with my family. Now that I'm basically retired because I can't retire in a certain way. But, but enjoying the this the latter years of my life becoming, you know, the most involving and, you know, and, and, you know, and, and enjoying, you know, living so most of the time where we're enjoying making a movie or enjoying our career or joint You know, there's so much about the the act of creating a creating a career and it's you have to do it in order to make be successful. You have to put everything into it. Be able to step outside of it is the most important thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:33
And last question three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, boy. Let's say Meet me in St. Louis. Yeah, that's come up quite some quite a bond as this Yeah. Yes, it is. It has

Nick Castle 1:08:46
is a beautiful film. Oh, god, they're just so many I would The Searchers

Alex Ferrari 1:08:54
know, also another another one that's made the list many times. Yeah. Let's see. Westside story. Yes, very good. Which which brings us back to what we talked about earlier, which is now being remade by Steven Spielberg. So what another one another one. Nick, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to the tribe today and, and sharing your your knowledge and experience and stories with us. So I truly appreciate it, my friend. Thank you so so much, and I hope to see you on the set of Last Starfighter too.

Nick Castle 1:09:34
Yes, that would be wonderful. Thank you, Alex. Thanks a lot.

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BPS 130: How to Avoid Career Pitfalls for Screenwriters with Felicity Wren

December 7, 2023July 21, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I wanted to take a deep dive into the marketing side of screenwriting today because it is in fact, a necessity in the industry today. Unfortunately, not many writers bother themselves as much about marketing their work. While I have some course resources on the IFH Academy website to help writers pitch stories or to get past the gatekeepers and so on, I thought it would be favorable to have marketing and development exec, Felicity Wren on the show to delve into the subject.

Felicity started off in this business as an actor and now is a producer and VP of Development at the International Screenwriters Association (ISA). ISA (Est 2008), is a screenwriters community and resource platform that allows branding, marketing screenplays to producers and provide learning resources for seasoned and new writers.

To date, ISA subscribers include 5,104 Industry Pros, approximately 70,000 Screenwriters, and 8,039 resources for screenwriters. Definitely, a goldmine!

Felicity trained academically across the performing arts sphere (writing, directing, acting technique, and script analysis). She pursued acting and appeared in films like Star Trek Into Darkness, The Battle of Hogwarts, Tales of Uplift and Moral Improvement, and more, but lost interest in the competitive reality and stress of waiting for the callback.

So, she pivots. Alongside her partner, she launched a theater company, Unrestricted View (1999) in London that worked primarily with new professional creatives. A decade later, Felicity moved to Hollywood to seek the bigger dream.

Some of Wren’s work includes short films like The Trap, Homeless Realtor, Who’s Who, The Force, and several others. At the ISA, she get’s to work directly with the Program Writers, and ISA Contest Winners, ensuring their projects get in front of eminent producers, managers, and agents in Hollywood.

For screenwriters trying to sell a script, you have to know your voice and feel comfortable using it beyond your incredible writing. Understanding what you bring to the table is key in every profession. Of course. Coupling that with some marketing tools can propel you for higher success. That’s why this conversation is important.

Enjoy my very informative conversation with Felicity Wren.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:15
I'd like to welcome to the show Felicity rent. How you doing, Felicity?

Felicity Wren 0:19
I'm really good. Thank you, Alex really good indeed.

Alex Ferrari 0:22
So thank you for coming on the show. You know, I've been a big fan of what you guys do over at ICA for a long time. And, and I thought it would be appropriate to have you come on the show to talk about marketing, because it's something that writers generally don't think about your career building and how to pitch how to actually try to pitch your story, how to get through all these gatekeepers, all these kinds of things. So I want to kind of do it a little bit of a deep dive into marketing, because it's, it is unfortunately, a necessity in today's world, if you just can't write the great American screenplay and hope that the, the gods from Mount Hollywood show up and you're like, you now shall write, here's $3 million this way to the Hollywood Hills, like that's not, that's not a thing. But a lot of screenwriters and I know that you know this, I think that's the thing. And it's not this. It's another skill set now that we have to talk about, which is marketing. But before we get into that, how did you will get into this business, this ridiculous business that?

Felicity Wren 1:25
Yeah, we were just talking about the fact that it's a bit of an abusive relationship. So yeah. Why on earth? Well, I kind of, I'm from the UK Originally, I think my accent does give it away, just in case anyone was wondering what's wrong. It's not Australia is the UK. And

Alex Ferrari 1:42
I was gonna pinpoint South Africa. South Africa, obviously.

Felicity Wren 1:48
Obviously, makes perfect sense. So I always loved acting. And then I realized that it's actually so difficult, because you're always waiting to be picked. So I thought, What can I do to change that? So the guy I was seeing who became my husband, that time, we started a theatre company, and we actually found ourselves in a little theater. And we started working with creative people and people who were starting out in their career. And that was 20 years ago, and I still run that little venue in London. And 11 years ago. I was thinking, hmm, it surely there's more to life than this, because I think, I don't know if everyone feels the same. But I think that even genetically it says, every seven years, you become a completely new person, every cell in your body is renewed. So I feel like if you're having a lovely life, or even if you're not having a lovely life, that's maybe a moment for you to think what else could I do with myself? And so I you know, you always have that Hollywood dream, much as you were saying earlier about the writers getting someone will discover me, I felt I could come from Hollywood.

Alex Ferrari 2:51
discovering my genius is what I like to say is like, why hasn't Hollywood discovered my genius, obviously? And why hasn't Kevin Fey he called me up to direct the next Avengers? I don't understand. Can you explain to me

Felicity Wren 3:05
the reason if you do need to be there, as though it's one of those things to kind of like, or not so much anymore, but it used to feel like that. So I thought, well, Hollywood, you know, just really needs a female British actress. It looks a bit like Meryl Streep's daughter that she didn't have, who hasn't had any work done? So that's my thinking, of course, very sensible. Until unrealistic.

Alex Ferrari 3:29
Sure. So the thing is, it's funny, because we're talking about the pecking order of abuse in Hollywood, and actors get the worst, the worst of the stick, they have no control. They're commodities in the process. writers are right next door to them, they have a little bit more slight bit more power, and control. And then probably directors, filmmakers, and then all the technical aspects of things. But I mean, and this is something I've said before on the show is, you know, to get into this business, you have to be a slightly bit insane, because it's not, it is not a business that makes any sense of any any sort whatsoever. I mean, because I mean, I've been in the business world, and I've been in the film industry. And this is the only business in the world would you could spend $5 million and have a worthless product at the end of it. I mean, am I wrong? Like you could you can spend $5 million over but over over selling, you know, over building a house with marble and this and it's in the wrong neighborhood in the wrong location, yet you still have a house with some value might not be the full value of what you spent. But there's value there, you literally can be have something that is worthless, and spend $5 million, if you don't know what you're doing in this business, and how it's insane and you know, and by the way, you can't even tell it what money you get. If you put 5 million in you're like, I think we're gonna get five to 10 back maybe what world is that a business

Felicity Wren 4:56
is not a business and the thing about that I always feel as well if you kind of work In the business world, you can think I'm going to start at the beginning. I'm going to serve my apprenticeship. I'm going to work my way up, and someone's going to notice how good I am. And I've been here for 10 years, and then it's going to mean something. And it's here. It's like, it doesn't none of that none of those rules apply. I think there is a kind of sense that maybe for an actor, you don't have to audition anymore, although Viola Davis was talking about the fact that she still had to, I think that's changed a bit with them recently. But you know, it was disgusting. It's used to racism in effect right there.

Alex Ferrari 5:33
Jesus Christ.

Felicity Wren 5:36
You know, I hear even if you're doing really well, and you're thinking, I can't do really great if you do a bomb project, when you go to movie jail, and you're back where you started.

Alex Ferrari 5:46
It's, it's insane. The old deal joke is how do you make millions in the film industry? You start with billions. So

how do you make millions in the business? You start with billions. But what it's, but it's it's true. I mean, and I'm kind of spotlighting and making poking fun of our industry, because it is it's insane. Obviously, someone's making money. Generally, it's not the artist. And that's a whole other conversation. Generally, it's not the artists. But you know, there is a business somewhat in there. But at the independent level, and things like that so hard to generate any real revenue, especially in today's marketplace, and for screenwriters trying to sell a script. I mean, when I was coming up in the 90s, you know, we were still in the boom of the spec script. It was kind of tailing off the spec script boom, of the 80s, where Shane Black and Joe Astor house, they weren't like getting, I mean, I think I read somewhere, Joe Astor house made $20 million on films that never were produced. Never were produced. I mean, he did produce they he did a couple really good movies. Yes, it gets. Yeah, don't get me wrong. He, I mean, he's, it wasn't like an anomaly. He was a really good writer, and still is a really good writer. But but that was that was kind of tailing off in the 90s. And there wasn't nearly as much competition and there was nearly as much information about I mean, I think when did subfields book come out? Like,

Felicity Wren 7:17
Oh, my God, does that save the cat? No, no,

Alex Ferrari 7:19
no. sixfields was the basically the first book on like, screen for screen format. It was all about screenwriting format. I think, the 90s I think it was in the mid 90s. I know save the cat came out in the late 90s. But it wasn't Yeah, there wasn't a lot of information yet. So the competition wasn't as fierce. But today, everybody's a screenwriter, everyone's a director, everyone's because there's so much more information about our industry. So I mean, how do we cut through as a writer in today's world in your opinion?

Felicity Wren 7:53
Um, well, you have to know your voice. I think that's the thing is like more than anything, is you have to really kind of like drill into I mean, obviously it worked really well for me being Meryl Streep's daughter she didn't and didn't realize she had that's my obviously my my benefit but I think it really understanding what you bring to a piece of work to your work to the industry. And really then making the most of that and using everything everything that you have so that you can understand that if there's a big push right now for Latina writers then if you're Latina, go for it don't go like I want to be seen just because my writing is just like this. No, absolutely just use everything you can I think it's a start with the very beginning. Understanding yourself looking at the movies that touch you, why did they touch you? What is it about them what the stories they keep telling will probably tell you a lot about your own pressure points. The because I feel like writing itself is a really therapy, isn't it? I mean, that's what writers are doing. They're just working out what's going on inside them on the page. So if you look at other movies that really touch you, I think you'll get a bit of a clue as to what's really going on with you then really understanding those ideas and working to to really hone them and find your way of presenting them that is different from other things you've seen but the same because that's that's the other thing you know, it'd be too crazy because people want things that have already made money. But I think that's going to be the first point is understanding who you are your voice getting really clear about it the stories you want to tell the themes that you have that are important to you and then start writing I think the idea that you just need one great script is a lie. I know this this I think again, that's still with that whole thing about I think they've been like one or two stories and where people have been swooped in and kind of like it was my first grip. It was my first acting role and

Alex Ferrari 9:55
Diablo Cody is a perfect example of that with with Juno. She got the Oscar and all A lot of stuff it was like it was my first script and she had been writing for years and that's what people don't understand she she'd been writing. She's been a prolific writer before she did her first screenplay. But, but I always tell I always tell screenwriters and filmmakers as well. That the only thing you have going for you is your secret sauce. That thing that is unique to you like there can't be another Quentin Tarantino because he's already he's got them he's he's cornered the market on Glentoran. Like Aaron Sorkin has cornered the market on being Aaron Sorkin like there's no one's going to be able to do that. No one's going to be able to be another Alex for another Felicity. Like we have our thing that is ours, that gift that that voice, our experiences. It is so unique to us. And I think once writers understand that all successful writers do this, all of them across all mediums are the ones who tap into that, that makes them special, the guy or the gal who is copying or trying to imitate. And by the way, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. We all do that. We all start imitating because that's how we learn from filmmaking and screenwriting we start, you know, we read the Shane Black scripts, we read the Tarantino scripts we like we got to read script, like the moment you sit down to start to write dialogue like Tarantino, you realize, Oh, this is not possible. Because it's just something inside it. Like when you start writing Sorkin dialogue, you go, I can't get the beats the heat he's doing or Mamet or they can't, because it's there's, you can't, you could try to go down that road. But I think once you start tapping into that, that well inside of you, is when the magic start happening. Do you agree?

Felicity Wren 11:43
I totally agree with that. And I feel because the thing is you said at the beginning is there's no guarantee about really being in this business. So you should do it for the love of it. So if you really love sitting down writing, getting these stories out thinking about your characters exploring where they might go, then at least you'll have the pleasure of that, regardless of what happens. I mean, of course you want something to happen. And you aspire for that. And there are things you can do to put yourself out there so that more people know about you, I think you have to be brave. Understand what your ideas are. And then don't be afraid to share them. Because actually, people want to hear about you we want. I think this idea that only some stories matter is false. All stories matter. We're all human beings on this planet, trying to get through trying to make trying to make ends meet, trying to cope with heartbreak and enjoy, you know, all the gamut of emotions. But the way we connect is through story and through understanding and really having compassion and empathy with another person. And you don't know I always say to my writers, I'm like, you don't know what that one story that you've written that one line that one moment that one scene will do for someone else who either reads it or watches it, and suddenly they feel seen. And that is probably that should be enough for you to sit down and go like, I'm gonna do it for about a minute. So if one person and then I feel better, then that's enough. And then from there, of course, we want to make money. But if you start from that, I think very sweet, unique place.

Alex Ferrari 13:28
No. Are you telling me then that you shouldn't get into this business for the money? Is that what you're trying to say? I mean, I got into some TV rich, obviously. So why it hasn't happened yet. But but that's why I started obviously, because this is the place to make money. I mean, every money in this business. I kid I kid but but as a kid, so many, so many writers and filmmakers come in to this business like I'm gonna be rich, you know, it's like, hey, it's gonna be it's gonna be raining Benjamins all day. Because you read the stories and you hear the press that Hollywood does. I've always said the holly was extremely good at the sizzle, but sucks at the steak. And they sell this. They sell the Hollywood dream. So beauty. They've been selling the Hollywood dream since the 20s. Since you know, since Chaplin jumped out, you know, or the Keystone cops are running around. They were selling the Hollywood dream. And I always tell people who haven't been to LA. I got the perfect example or analogy for Hollywood is this. It's the Oscars. When you go down to Hollywood Boulevard on Oscar night, oh, my God, it looks amazing, doesn't it? Oh, it looks great on television. It's great. Then your family flies into LA and they're like, hey, I want to go down to Hollywood Boulevard at the Chinese theatre and like, you don't want to do that. No, no, no, it's great. No, it's great. I want to go see it. I'm like, you don't want to do that. So I did the same thing. When I first got here with a friend of mine who lived here before I moved here. And I went to downtown downtown and I went to Hollywood Boulevard, and we parked where Madame Tussaud's is now that was that was an empty parking lot back then. And I parked in the moment. We got out there was a woman who walked by and she's just like, welcome to Hollywood and she lifted up and flashed us. And I was like, my wife and I were just like, wow. And my friend goes, welcome to Hollywood and we walk down the street and I just my wife was clinching to me because it was not. I'm like home like, and the farther you will get away from the from the Dolby theater. Oh, it gets shade here and shade here in shader. And that is it. It looks almost like a cesspool other than that little block. Am I wrong? I mean, it's perfect analogy for Hollywood, because it shows you on the screen. Oh, it's so pretty. But the second The show is over, they pull up the red carpet, and it's like, needles in the gutters. It's insane. Yeah.

Felicity Wren 15:45
Yeah, that corner is particularly ugly as well when the red carpet is gone. But it literally from above, when you've got the seats down and you can't see the street. There is absolutely nothing there. And then you're just accosted by people out of work or actors dressed as Disney characters trying to take their photo with you. And then it just gets further down to is really stripper attire. Drops further down the shops further down. But it is the absolute opposite of what you think there is no paved with gold in Hollywood. That is not true.

Alex Ferrari 16:15
It's a Boulevard of Broken Dreams. That's damn sure. It's as cliche as that is once you're here. I've been here for over a decade. And when I got here, the streets were paved for gold. For me. I was like, Oh my God, look, there's Warner Brothers. Oh, look, there's Disney. Oh, look, there's a boathouse, I was so excited just to be in the business about a year or two. And you're just like, yeah, this is this is the reality. Okay? Okay, this is how this game is played now. But at first you don't. And that's one of the reasons why I do what I do is because I want to warn people trying to get into this business. Look, I'm not saying don't follow your dreams, but you got to be prepared for what's coming. And most people aren't there. Most people are not prepared for that. I always say people, the punch, we're all going to get punched, we all get punched throughout our throughout our careers. No matter who you are, if you're Steven Spielberg, if you're, we all get punched by this business. And occasionally, you learn how to avoid the punch, you learn how to duck, you learn how to take the hit a little bit easier. But if you don't know that there's a fight, you're gonna get knocked out in the first one. And how many fighters have you run into who the first time that punch comes, whatever that punch might be, they're out for the count. And they just like, I'm out. I don't want to do this, because they weren't prepared for it.

Felicity Wren 17:32
I think as well as so many things can be disappointing. Especially if you're a writer, a baby writer, or someone that's doing it as a second career, we have a lot of that. Then you're used to a certain set of rules. You know, if you're a baby, right, then you just come from school or college and everything's been pretty easy until that point. And if you're a second career, then we have those rules again, that you can work hard enough and people would understand and you would get somewhere or is it this just not like that here. So people promise you things and then they don't do what they say they're going to do. So you have to understand that you can it's a weird thing though, because I do think still think you need to celebrate all the time to keep your morale up. So the fact is that someone says I want to option your project, you should be like, wow, you know, you should literally like run around your front room, you should call your friends you should if you drink have a beer, if you don't drink, have a look. This is not an advert for look for you know, do something to go like oh my goodness, this is amazing. Someone has realized my work, seen it and liked it. And that's wonderful. And then just get back to work. Because until it's actually signed, the contract is signed until the money has gone over. Till even it's there started Principal photography until Principal photography has stopped till it's in the editing room until it's all done, done. Done. It doesn't even really exist.

Alex Ferrari 18:57
Until you're at the premiere on a screen or on your home screen at a digital premiere nowadays. It doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. I know it's shocking for people to listen to but here in Hollywood people do exaggerate sometimes. And they lie straight up and they tell you they're going to do something and they don't. And the first few times that happens to you You're just like wow, this sucks. And it's it's it's it's rough. It's a rough go of it no question.

Felicity Wren 19:30
I think it's because everyone's trying to kind of push each other away push off of each other. And this is I don't mean it sounds so cynical, but it's so hard to get a movie made that you're like well if I get someone attached, then maybe someone will then put the money up so you kind of like you lie to both parties to say that this person is attached to you want to put the money and then you go this person for the money I'm so do you want to be attached and there's that that kind of money. Yeah, that really I think can be, that's where it can all fall apart. Because actually nothing is really set in stone until it's set in stone. And like we say, that's when it's all done. So I think you have to find ways to make it almost like a game for yourself. So it's more lighthearted, I think, to kind of stay in a place of it would be great if that happens, but it's not gonna ruin my life, you know. So that's what you need lots of other stuff. I think the other thing to remember in this business is that you do need friends, family, hobbies, you know, other bits of your life to fill you up. Because this, whatever this is, is never going to be enough. And so when you're let down, you still have other things and you're like, well, I can go to the beach, it's okay, I can stop writing for a day I can do that I can, I can go out for dinner with my lovely partner, I can do something that makes me remember that I am a human being living on the planet. And this is just one of the things I do. However, you have to have a passion for it. But it's still one of the things you do.

Alex Ferrari 20:59
That was the biggest mistake, one of the biggest mistakes I made coming up is that my entire identity was associated with being a filmmaker, and being a director, like that was my whole life. And, and to a certain extent, you have to kind of be that obsessive, especially at the beginning you have to be. But that balance that you and I are talking about is it's only because of age, you know, we've been around the block, hey, I've been around the block a little bit. It's like, you know, just to speak the way you just say was so eloquent. And wise. I don't hear 20 year olds speaking like that, generally speaking, and it happens every once in a while, but very rarely. So that is just you just kind of kind of go through it. And you realize there's a hopefully people listening who are of that age, can take these notes and understand that that I know you're trying hard to to break through and I'm writing and this. But if you completely attach your identity to the craft of screenwriting, or filmmaking, or being in this business, you will never, ever be happy. I don't care if you went to Oscars, because I spoken to Oscar winners who have won the Oscar and then they're like, now what? Because and when that if you don't win the Oscar the next year, I'm a failure. Like, how crazy is this? thing? Things like that. So you have to have a balance in life. And I'm so blessed to have a family that balanced me because when I was young, I was it was first 10 years. There was just that's all it was. But I was very, very depressed, very unhappy, because it was just this kind of high, low, high and low, high. Yeah, constantly. And you never, you never had this baseline. It was just constantly highs and lows. So you, you'd be so happy one day, and you would crash the next because that guy lied to you. Or the financing fell through, which was never really going to happen anyway, because it was just some kid with a trust fund who said, Oh, mommy's not gonna give me the money this week. So, you know, these are the things

Felicity Wren 22:57
and condition them is next, isn't it? It's like next. So you get there and you think, Oh my god, I would be so happy. If I moved to Hollywood, you move to Hollywood, you're like, Okay, what's next? I'll be so happy as someone read my script next, then they want it, then. And you can't lose track of that moment when you were a little person just wanting to move to Hollywood, and being able to look back and think actually, I've come so far, and I'm doing so well. And am I enjoying this process? That is what it should be? Am I am I taking a moment each day to be grateful? And just to say, wow, I feel like being a storyteller is one of the best jobs on Earth. I mean, I know it's not easy. But getting to dig into the human idea, again, to tell stories about love and triumph and changing the world. I mean, what an amazing thing to do. I think there are lots of jobs where people are just earning a paycheck. And you know, I respect them so much. Because that's, that's hard just to do that just to do something for the paycheck. Whereas with a story, you actually get to go like disappear into your mind. And imagine a different way for yourself and for others. And I just think it's such a privilege to be here. And so enjoy it in the in this process. Really, pat yourself on the back more often than not, you know, take a stop and go oh my god, this is amazing. I'm so glad I'm here. I'm so glad I'm doing this and even when it's rubbish, it's just show me how good it's gonna feel when it's great.

Alex Ferrari 24:29
Then I want to point something out that you just said, the process. I think that that's where so many screenwriters fail is that they don't enjoy the process. They only look at the outcome. And they're putting so much pressure on their work and their art that it can never live up to it. I used to do that constantly with my work when I would release a short film. I'm like, this is the one. This is the one that's going to blow me up. This is the one that Steven Spielberg is going to see and he's going to come down from Hollywood tapped me on the shoulder is like now you shall do Jurassic Park seven. Now like that was that was the end when it didn't Do that which it doesn't, and it can't. And the people and I've spoken to the people that had that has happened to, by the way, and every one of them never expected that no, never thought it was going to happen to like, I was just making a short film. And all of a sudden, someone from Hollywood showed up into like, hey, do you want to make the feature version of that? And here's a couple mil, like, literally that conversation. They never said, Oh, this is the thing that's gonna blow me up. No one ever said that one of the famous conference, one of the famous mythical stories is El Mariachi, which is Robert Rodriguez isn't people still talk about that movie? As the like, well, he did a movie for $7,000. And we can get into all that another time. But But he was making that movie. And everyone's like, oh, he was making that movie to get found? No, he's making that movie for the Spanish VHS market. And happened to drop it off at an agents who a friend of his who worked as the assistant to an agent, that agent happened to be the biggest directing agent in Hollywood. He saw it, and but it wasn't. And when they were going to release a mariachi, it's like, No, no, no, no, no, no, give me the money to remake it, I don't want to this was I was just playing, I don't want people to see this. And that was and that was the thing. So writers have to understand that as well that you have to enjoy the process. And the moment that I stopped, I started to enjoy writing, or enjoy what I do on a daily basis and never put an outcome towards it. I became so much happier.

Felicity Wren 26:31
Yes, I like everything in life, isn't it, it's like, if you're trying too hard it is it worth the cost of that. So if you're looking for love, if you want to be in love, don't look for it, it's that same kind of thing, you do it because you're having a nice moment telling the story. And then keep telling them keep telling them and I think that's the other thing about I think we started with that is that I think you should really be thinking about ideas and writing out the ideation you know, really spending some time every week, every month to just think okay, reading articles what's exciting me right now what is kind of like happening in the world that is important, but still is relates to me and is relevant to my life and the things that I care about. And just say like just write start writing ideas out about right. So what would happen if this if these people, if these people who I'm trying to think of an example, had cat is landed on the moon, and it's not a great one, it would be a very niche market. But you know, so start thinking about what ifs and ideas and stuff like that. So you're always trying to generate new ideas that are relevant to what's happening socially right now. And that also kind of still touch who you are. So that you you're not stuck as well on just the grind of this one script that maybe you're working on or you're madly in love with, but might need a little bit of time away. It doesn't mean to say that you're writing on 15 things at once, but be focused on those scripts you're writing on. But then think take some time to write some other ideas. So that if you are ever in pitching this fabulous script that you're in love with, and they ask you what else you have, then you have 10 or 15 other ideas ready to go that they can talk to you about because as we know, even if they're only going to buy one of the scripts from you, they're actually buying you the writer rather than just the script. And so you want to show that you're that kind of writer that's full of ideas, and really can be flexible and move with them. And if they start talking, you can start riffing back and you know, they want to it's like a marriage, you're going to get in bed with them for a long time, if they take your script unless you start to make it.

Alex Ferrari 28:36
I was talking to a screenwriter The other day I was a very successful screenwriter. And he's like, when I went to pitch, this is what I did, I would have the eight minute pitch for my big script that I loved. And then they would go That's great. What do you have? What else do you have? That he's going to a two minutes, two minute pitch for another script he had? And he was like, boom, boom, goes. Yeah, that's great. What else do you have? Then he does this thumbnail 22nd pitch, they're like, That's the one. And you just never, you never know. He's like, Alright, that's the one you want to buy? Okay, well, we'll sell you that one. So you have to have multiple things. And I always tell screenwriters as well, that if you're working on a script for two, three years, and it's just one script, and that's the only thing you're writing on, you are not a professional, you're hobbyist at that point, you're not a professional, you have to professional writers write and write a lot and have multiple scripts. I know you don't have to have multiple scripts doing at the same time, though I find it to be helpful to be jumped back and forth. Sometimes maybe between two or three, maybe Yeah, not 15, but two or three. But you should always have your product and ideas. It's you need to walk into meetings with minimum of three ideas or scripts ready to rock and roll if not five or six. And you're really not going to be any good at writing into you're probably into your fourth fifth sixth. Seventh, if not 20th screenplay unless you're a prodigy and they do come but that That's the that's the outlier. You can't really Hey, well couldn't turn it here. I'm like, stop it. Stop right there. Stop. Well, Aaron Sorkin did stop, stop. Don't put your name in the same sentence with them because they're, they're a different level than you are. And it's not better or worse. It's just at a different place in their career than you are and the kind of towel. It's like, well, Mozart started looking. Like I picked up the I picked up the piano. Well, Mozart was seven. I'm like, really, really, he was seven. Really, you compare yourself to one of the greatest geniuses. But that's, that's the insanity of screenwriters and filmmakers.

Felicity Wren 30:37
I know, the good news is you can get better at it. You can get better at it. And actually, it's not as ageist as other bits of the profession, so you can get better. It doesn't matter how old you are in the same way unless they're looking. I was talking to someone the other day, a millennial. Actually, no, she's probably the the younger than that. She's like, she's only 22. And they're not millennials and more on open other

Alex Ferrari 31:02
and new. Forgot the new Yeah, not even. I don't have that new generation anyone. Anyway, but we are so old fellas. We are ancient. We are ancient. We are dating ourselves. Let's just watch. Let's go to blockbuster went to VHS and just watch a movie tonight. I mean, seriously, we're that old.

Felicity Wren 31:26
He was talking to me about dialogue. And she was like, Oh, God, all these millennials writing this dialogue for our generation. And I was like, I mean, cuz I was like, that means? I mean, just like, Oh, gosh. And that's like, yeah, so um, then Okay, then I think you've got it. She's a writer too. So I say then you need to get out there. And actually, all these people in rooms need to be going, like who are hiring from rooms need to be going, Okay, I need to find me some baby writers, because we think we know how people are speaking and they're not speaking that way. So let's actually get some authenticity in the room. And I think that's something I've really enjoyed this year. COVID, and just previously to COVID, this whole kind of thing is this I search for authenticity in writing, and in rooms and in TV shows and in features that stop being older white dudes kind of writing young women and stuff like that. I felt like it's great that things are changing.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
Yeah, no, there's no question and you're starting to see more and more diversity in, in, in movies and television shows. And it's, it's not that the old white guy story is not good. It's just that's all we had, we need to have, yeah, other points of view, because that's not the country we live in. And having those other points of view are are fantastic. And I'm really glad that that's happening now. And giving opportunities to mean being a screenwriter in the 90s. Unless you're a white dude, it was it was rough. I remember coming up as a Latino in Miami. And they said, If you direct the Spanish commercial, you won't be able, they won't allow you to do English language anymore. Because I would then be put in the box of he's a Latino director does Latin American or Latino commercials, because God forbid, if I can aim a camera at a Spanish speaking person, I can't aim a camera at an English speaking person, you know, or, I don't even get me started that whole world. But that was that was that was the fear. And I had done some Spanish commercials. And I'm like, I can't put them on my reel. Because I would get I would get ousted from the room. It was just insane.

Felicity Wren 33:41
It was like, I'm glad that the multi hyphenate has become a thing though. I think though that has become it didn't used to be. And I think everyone was very much more if you're an actor, you're an actor, if you're right, you're right. If you're a filmmaker, a filmmaker, a director, you know, I mean, you weren't allowed to do all those things. It's like you're almost being greedy. Whereas now actually, they want you to do those things. But it also means that you have to as a screenwriter, or a filmmaker or anyone in this industry. Treat yourself like a business you are a business person. And I've been talking to him recently, and I think even going so far as to become a producer yourself as a screenwriter. So you can hire yourself as a producer on for scripts, if they're going to get made by somebody so that you can be fired off the script as a screenwriter, but you're still on in some capacity as a producer is something to think of. So everything you're doing now when you're trying to get your script out there. Think of it as a business person, not as a creative and that's why you kind of need your head split down the middle I would say and I'm sure you would agree is that half his business and half his creative because this business half has to be making the deals or learning how to build a pitch deck. Being good on the phone, selling something, learning That is the business side. And the other greatest I sometimes forget, like, we aren't going to tell this amazing story about things I love, you know, it's like the two halves.

Alex Ferrari 35:07
Well, like I always say there's the word show in the word business. And the word business has twice as many letters as the word show. And there's a there's, there's a reason yes, it does, one needs the other. But without the money, they no show. Because they'll put on a show, it could suck, but they'll put on a show. But the money is what really is going. Now, I was talking to someone the other day that about branding, and they were a screenwriting team, and very successful screenwriting team from the 80s and 90s. And I was talking to him, and they were saying that they branded themselves in town as the rewrite guys, they would be known as the guys who would come in to trouble projects and rewrite these projects and in specific genres. So they did romantic comedies. And, and through an action, which was weird, it was, like I said, they would add a little bit of comedy to action projects and things like that. And I think as a screenwriter, even at a certain level, you need to think about branding, branding yourself in the business, because the business wants to throw you in a box, they need to throw you in a box for their, their small minds, to to put to be able to deal with you. Because there's just so many things, if you do everything. I can't, I don't know where to put you. So you need to kind of find a niche at the beginning, you could venture out later, but at the beginning, you need to find a niche and focus on that niche and become a brand on that. And it could be you're the dialogue person, you're you know, I can I can do rewrites. I'm really good at you know, subplots, I'm there's things as far as getting work, not selling the million dollar spec, working as a writer, I think that's so powerful because every every major screenwriter you could think of they had their niche. I mean, Quintin was rewriting Crimson Tide. And you can tell the scene that he rewrote, because it's so clearly him, because Denzel Washington in a new killer service, talking about Silver Surfer, so. So it's like, that's the good dirtiness. But he was he was he was brought in to punch up dialogue. We know when he was starting out, because that was his brand. Would you agree about branding? And how do screenwriters If you agree, brand themselves in the business?

Felicity Wren 37:29
Yeah. It's a really interesting question. I reached out to our writers on our development, slate, and the the way we asked them to talk about themselves, is that if you were a Hollywood producer, because they're all or average from anywhere, quite frankly, but you were clicking through, and you were looking at your profile, so the kind of like the bio of you the story of you. What kind of writer would they get if they hired you? So are you someone who in is fascinated by familiar relationships and how they explode? And how life can be different if you come from a blended family? Or do you do like to focus on dialogue and comedy and and unpicking stories and from narratives that we've already heard? You know, I mean, so whenever you because I feel, again, it's that thing that we started within the idea that knowing who you are and what your pressure points are, and what your story is, that is your brand. So you have to get it get very kind of clinical, I think, and dissect and go into your work and go like, what are the things I keep talking about? That actually, if someone was going through and they went, I want to punch up a dialogue and a family script with a with a breakup, a new Hello, I really interested in relationships and breaking up and kind of, then they've got that for you. I think it's, I think if you're particularly interested in horror, or something like that, and you say, like I seem to be drawn towards these kind of genres, and to put that in as well. But I feel like the how you tell a story and the kind of beats of it, the heart of it, even in these different genres will probably remain pretty similar. Because that, as you said, is your special sauce. So I guess what, what you're asking for the brand is to find your special sauce and articulate it correctly.

Alex Ferrari 39:25
Write it, articulate it, if you will. and promote yourself that way. You're right. I think one of the bigger mistakes that a lot of early or baby screenwriters as you'd like to call them do is that they're like, Oh, I write horror, romantic comedies, actions and sci fi. Like you're done. There's just this No way. No one's gonna hire you because they don't want a generalist. They want a specialist when it's writing. Would you agree that they're like, I'm an action producer. I want a guy or a gal who just loves action and writes action. And if there's a little humor in it, all the better great but I need someone who's focused on actual or at least someone who's focused in horror, and thrillers or I need someone who's focused in sci fi, or in romantic comedies or comedies. Do you agree?

Felicity Wren 40:10
I think I mean, I felt like it's got a bit because of a much more genre busting. And I think genres themselves become a bit more fluid. But I think it's that the thing about, as you were kind of saying is, you can't be an expert in everything. And if you are trying to build up your career, you should be trying to find producers, directors, managers, these kind of people that like people like you. So in a way, you want to kind of work out what your voice is, what your brand is. So that then you can be very targeted in your approach, if you are thinking about producers you'd like to work with or that might like to work with you. So what do you have in your portfolio that is like, work with what they have produced, and then see if you can find a way to get to them. I mean, it's always trying to find kind of roads in but that I think helps you decide who your brand is, and what your brand is. And then where you can target your approach. And manager, if they tend to, I would say, probably tries to cover all bases, but see if there's a hole in their roster. So they've got a comedy person, they've got a an action person, they've got a TV person, but we haven't got someone that's really focused on horror, then maybe you could approach it that would be your approach is that I see. I really like these interesting characters that are in difficult situations. I particularly like horror that psychological rather than gruesome, I see that you have done these other your other writers on your roster, do this, this and this, I feel like this is maybe a place where I could fit in your roster if you're looking right now. So I think branding will help you across the board, in your sales pitch.

Alex Ferrari 41:46
Can you also know, myth bust, this concept that all I need as an agent in my life is going to be better. All I need is a manager to sell me and then they will see my genius, and the millions will roll in. Can you please bust this myth for anyone listening?

Felicity Wren 42:09
I always say there's a reason why they take you they take 10 and you get 90. And it's because even if you get a manager at maximum, they're gonna do 10% of the work and you do 90%

Alex Ferrari 42:22
That's great. I love that. I've never heard that one. That's great. So

Felicity Wren 42:25
I mean, like the idea that they're going to, they're going to take you on and then the unit sit by the phone, and it's going to ring and it's the same for actors, you know, I mean, that is not not going to happen. The best thing you could do if you were going to meet with managers, or try and get in touch with them and try and you know, there's a whole thing, Twitter, follow on Twitter, you know, do your homework on IMDB Pro, this is not an ad with IMDb Pro, but find out you know who their writers are, is that you nowadays can find out a lot about who they are and what they want. So that you when you approached them, and you're like, actually, I think I might be the right fit for you. And I've done some homework as to where I think my projects might land in the industry. They're like, thank God, I don't have to think about that. They've already given me if they like you, and they'd like your work. They're like, wow, I already have a starting point, I don't have to think about where I'm going to send them. Because if I agree with some of these ideas, and that's taken some of the work away from me already, managers are looking like most people to do as little as they can for as much return as they can. And depending on where you are in the roster. Again, they've got lots of people at the top that they have to, they have to be seen to be doing a lot more for if you've just signed with them. And you are literally the last person that or they might give you a bit of a burst at the beginning where they're like, okay, you around town and you have this kind of flurry at the beginning. If nothing happens, then then it will be crickets, and nothing will happen ever again. So this idea that they are going to look after you and change your world is absolute rubbish. But it does give you It gives you a tick, it gives you an authenticity it gives you someone else has chosen you for when you can then go out into the world and approach other people. And you're like, well, I'm signed with this manager. So therefore let's have this conversation.

Alex Ferrari 44:10
Yeah, and I noticed you kept saying manager and you didn't say the word agent very often in that conversation because it's very true. Managers are a little bit more open to nurturing careers slightly bit slightly more agents are mercenaries. They're absolutely mercs business. Yeah, it's just the business in for P and for screenwriters, you have to understand that no agent is the agent is only going to sign you if they believe they can make money with you. And the easier the money the better. You just want Sundance, I'll sign you because I know I'll be able to probably flip you really quickly and make a little quick cash. You're a commodity. That's what that's what it is. You look at you look at these huge movie stars from the 80s and 90s. They're not at CIA anymore. They're not at William Morris anymore. They're at they're at second tier because their career doesn't is not making 20 million he's not making she's not making 20 million a pop anymore. So it's business, it's business where a manager will kind of little bit more. But yeah, you're right, the water bottle tool, though, they might throw you on the water bottle tour. And if no one if there's no bites on that shotgun, it's a shotgun approach essentially, to should throw you out there, see if anyone bites if someone bites, great if no one buys, okay, let's see what happens, we'll hold them, you know, we'll hold them around or hold around for a little bit to see what happens. But it's, it's the case. And like you said, the more the more of a complete package you can bring to them as a writer, the more likely you're going to get so if you are a prolific writer, who is now not only written screenplays, but has multiple selling books, self published books on on Amazon, you have a website, you have a maybe even a small following from your books, you've got a business, it, you've packaged all this together, you bring something like that to them, they're gonna take that writer, much more than the writer who's just like, this is the one I forget, it

Felicity Wren 46:17
was a nice idea, but it's just again, is that they only the manager only has so much time to in their day. And they are on to make money themselves, you know? And so if you can help them make money from you, then they're going to be like, thank you very much. I've been looking for you. Yeah. And also, I think it's just to empower yourself. I mean, the we talked about this earlier, Alex and I, you know, the actor has nothing until they start writing, you know, and if you're a screenwriter, you know, you, in a way are waiting to be picked. So how, how can you help yourself, you write a lot, and then you do the research so that if something does come along you already if someone if you're in a lift somehow, if it ever goes in elevator, that's the word that you can you can pitch your project, you know, where it would land in a streaming or TV, you know, producers that might be interested in it. And you've already done this work. And if someone's saying that what you're doing right now, again, well, I'm doing this and I think it'd be right right to do Max, but I'm just awaiting my manager speaking to a few people over there, then suddenly, you can speak with authorities and they're like, Oh, I show maxes looking at someone's but you know, then because everyone likes to hear those kind of trigger words that there may be means that they should be interested in having a look themselves. And it means that you have something, something to hang on to, rather than just, this is my art and I'm writing. It gives you you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:43
you're providing value. And that's the key to any career. Anything you do in life is to provide value to the other person, every relationship that you have. you're providing value. So, so many screenwriters Do you know, I get pitched. I get I get pitched screenplays. They send me this is how and I've said it 100 times on the show. Don't send me a screenplay. I'm not a producer. I'm not gonna produce your screenplay. I know. And I will get cold emails with a query letters with a screenplay attached, which of course gets deleted instantly. Now I'm like, Why? What you've done no research. You just saw me talking to some producer and you think that I'm gonna like read your screenplay, and go, Oh, you know who we are all you know, I'm gonna reach out to this guy that I just talk to. Because obviously, no notes to your homework. I mean, and that's the other thing like somebody screenwriters don't know who to Who do you approach and how do you know who you approach I always tell them IMDb Pro, IMDb pro IMDb pro IMDb Pro is your best investment, great ROI. And you like you've been saying, find out what they're looking for who's on their roster, what kind of projects that they're into? Are you going to pitch a romantic comedy to Blum house? which I'm sure they got and I promise you they get them? I promise you they get?

Felicity Wren 49:14
Well, I think you just want to set your, your best foot forward. This is just so that you have more of a chance. And I think sometimes it's difficult because again, it's your own work and dependence. Some people are egomaniacs and like it's my work, you got to listen to me, but I tend to find that they tend not to be the best writers is the people that are more

Alex Ferrari 49:36
shocking.

Felicity Wren 49:37
Yeah. It's the people who are a bit more humble a little bit more sensitive and find this difficult. Try and imagine it's your best friend. I don't know call your rights yourself. I guess it's Beyonce, isn't it? It's Beyonce and her kind of Alter Ego you know, she has her stage persona. Queen Bee the queen bee Yeah, queen bee. So I guess basically do that for yourself is that you have the right to who is a sensitive Human has to kind of expose it in a way so that we can have enjoyment from it. And then you have the business person that goes like, Okay, I'm going to take that sensitive little soul, and I'm going to work out the best way to move them forward and use a different part of your brain, call yourself something different. I'm sure people have actually kind of Well, I think is all those kind of old movies where they were like, Hey, I'm here for the meeting. And then they go, like, I'm here, you don't mean to pretend to be the agent and then ring them up. You don't have to do that. But I think psychologically, it's probably worth doing that. So treat your writer friend, as your best friend and try and see if you are giving them advice. What would you do and how you would be like brave, be brave, throw your hat in the wing, enter that contest, you know, try and send a cold email, see who you might want to work with, you know, really give them advice as as you would a best friend, because I think there's only so hard when it's just little you and your work. But actually, people are looking for story all the time. And it is so hard to find good ones a good script is honestly, it's not even a needle in a haystack it's needle in the haystack in the hay field. You know, I mean, in a in a low in somewhere where there's lots of hay. I mean, it's like, it's huge. It's so hard to find a good script. And an original voice. I mean, if you have something if you think oh my goodness, I read a script the other day that I really liked because it was about two young homeless kids, and then living on the streets, and then sort of an incident happened, and then how they get off the streets. I've never really seen that. And it was and it was written from such a authentic point of view and gave the main characters had had things that were extraordinary about them, even though they were dirt poor and living on the street and in hardship, you know, in that that I was like, Okay, this is this is good. This is interesting. So, whatever your story is your uniqueness, your point of view, if you have something original, honestly, someone will want to read it and will want to make it.

Alex Ferrari 52:05
And I think you mentioned this a little earlier in our conversation in regards to the the pressure that you put on art, but like the, the All I need is this and then this will happen kind of thing. Like I just need to win the nickels and an hour I guess I just need to get an agent or I just need Steven Spielberg or Chris Nolan to see my work and I'll they'll come on and Shepherd me through and you know, these kind of things. And I think screenwriters as well as filmmakers need to break apart from that, just get that guy get out of that mindset, because it is all about the process and enjoying the process and enjoying the road. Because this is going to be a painful Look, you've chosen a very interesting career path. As a screenwriter, it is wonderful, it is beautiful, you get the privilege to tell stories, but it is not an easy path. For any writing. Writing is never been easy for when it was Charles Dickens. Shakespeare had, you know, Shakespeare had a rough time a rough go of it. You know, he wasn't considered Shakespeare when he was writing, you know, he was just another dude trying to get a play off the ground. So, and to understand that, that humility that you must have, because if you are not humble, this business will humble you to your knees. Oh, my goodness, he will humbly anytime I see one of those egomaniacs which I've run across, oddly enough, a handful of times in my business. And in my time, in my time in the business, I always say to myself to the business will take care of them. You know, I've had literally I've literally had producers in the room like I'll see at next year's Oscars with this film. Like it's just such such delusion. That and i think i think i think when you run into people like that, and I think this is an interesting conversation to have, when you run into delusional people in this business, on every every level, from the screenwriter, to the producer, to the financier to the actor, whoever, when you that is obviously a defense mechanism that they've created for themselves to survive this. This this this Bartlett that is the film industry. They don't understand yet that that's not the way to do it. But it's it's a defense. How would you if you have to deal with someone like this, which I'm sure you have, and I have as well? What advice would you give to deal with delusional people? And by the way, if you don't know any delusional people, you are the delusional person. Like I always, I always, always say like, how many people here have ever How many people here know an angry bitter screenwriter or angry and bitter filmmaker? And and everyone raises round like if you didn't raise your hand you're the angry and bitter screenwriter that everyone else looks at. So

Felicity Wren 54:49
oh my gosh, but it's true, isn't it? I think I think you're right though. I think I try and look at it like this for anyone that is being Either mean, or delusional or, or horrible, or where that all that kind of stuff comes from something that they've got going on with them. It's actually nothing to do with you. And the fact that you're at the kind of like, I had no receiving the the blunt stick of it that and you know, then behaving so badly. I think it's just to try and remove yourself from that situation and get to what they are really angry about or delusional about or so you kind of try and undercut and keep asking questions. So you kind of go like, so is it this? You do? Not? I mean, so you kind of like so. So you've got the money. So where's the money coming from? Okay, so who's Billy? Is it in the bank? You'll I mean, so you keep asking questions, that kind of unpeel the kind of the delusion, I think not in a mean way, but just in a kind of like, so I don't understand. It's like, it's really kind of getting to the truth of it. Because if you ask for the truth and ask enough questions, I think you can then kind of like barely the guy like I'll, or they'll be like, admit something, or they'll kind of storm out and then you know, and then just God anyways, but I think remaining in your own strength, so not kind of getting caught up in their what they've got going on. So like, does that seem real to you? You know, it's the same thing, isn't it? If a deal seems too good to be true, is

Alex Ferrari 56:27
no. So with that said, though, with that said, I'm going to I'm going to tell you a story really quickly. If I told you that there was a producer, who said, we're going to get a million dollars for this project. Where's the money coming from? Oh, there's this. This guy who married a rich woman in South Africa, let's and he gets a stipend of a million dollars a month to play with, as his has his walking around money. And a million dollars is no big deal. And he really just wants to be part of the filmmaking process. Give him a part in the movie a little, a small little cameo. He wants to go to the red carpet, all this kind of stuff. And the director is a first time director. The cinematographer has never shot a feature. And we will probably have a couple of real actors involved, like faces and maybe even an Oscar nominee. Do you believe that thing happened?

Felicity Wren 57:35
I hope it did. Because it sounds amazing. But oh my God, what a What an amazing group of things to happen all in one go. Did it happen?

Alex Ferrari 57:44
Yes. I wasn't, I wasn't the director. But and I won't say any more about the project because I don't want to bring the project out. But it is in my past. I was part of the project in a small capacity. That's exactly how it happened was a good? No, no. Nothing in that conversation stated that it was going to be good.

Felicity Wren 58:09
No. But I mean, again, I'm hopeful. It seemed like a dream come true. I wonder if somehow then blossom,

Alex Ferrari 58:15
blossomed into an Oscar winning now. Nothing, Nothing. Nothing. No, it was a complete and utter disaster. The only thing that held it together was the cast. And they were it was also at a different time period. It was thinking, like I say the dates but it was at a time period where it was easier to sell international based talent nowadays is not as easy. But yeah, but so there's those stories, and you can imagine me I was just like, why is this happening? and Why doesn't anyone give it to me? Why hasn't someone given me the million dollars? obviously have a much better back? Don't they understand my genius? Like I always say, I'm the humblest guy you'll ever meet like the humbleness of the humble. No, but humble people. I'm the humblest but yes to being home. I'm the best at being humble. Number one. Best the better. Everybody else. It's ridiculous. But so you see things like that. And I worked along the post production business. So I would see these stories come in. And it would get me so angry. I was an angry bitter filmmaker for so long. Oh my god so long. And I know in the screenwriting world as well, you see these projects get done and you see these paydays. And you're just like, why did that person get that? What? But you can't look at things like that. You just got to go out on your path. You're on your on your journey and just keep, keep look going down. And I promise you something good will eventually happen if you do that. If you enjoy the process. You're winning. Right? Are

Felicity Wren 59:49
you already winning? And I always kind of think you can reframe everything. So like you can kind of go like Oh, why did they get that money and you go and it's so terrible. And you're like, well, this is inspiring me so I can go I got that money and it's terrible. And mine's gonna be better than that. You know, I think everything that really annoys you, if you can take a minute to step back from it, and just kind of flip it, flip it, I feel like you could do this in life anyway, just try and flip it and go like, Oh, I didn't get that role. And I think it was a Jennifer Aniston she was opera and an advert or something. And she, she was down to the last two that you know, that pen heavy pencil thing. And she was going. And she was really she didn't get it, she was absolutely devastated. Because it was going to like be I know, $5,000 because I used to pay or maybe even $15,000 because I used to pay quite well back then. And she was going away filming and everything. And she didn't get it. And then she called into the friends interview. And it would have been while she was away filming and she got that role instead. And you have to think about how different her life has been for not getting that interview.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:54
I do believe that there is a plan for us on a now we're not we're going into spiritual world and the destiny and all that kind of stuff. I think we do control our own destiny, I think we do definitely have to put the work in. But they're there. This just forces man, there's just things that just you you can't see things like you know, the friends gang. How they all got together like it just so happened stance that was so perfectly put together. We're making a hundreds of millions of dollars 20 years later still and they're still making money off that show. All those kinds of things. There is destiny, there's just no question I was listening to. I had the producer of pretty woman on the other day. And and he was talking to us about Julia Roberts. And he wanted Julia Roberts to be on the show on the movie. And Gary Marshall wanted Julia Roberts but Richard Gere had to sign off. So Julia Roberts, Jesus, this is Julia Roberts, basically, I think after mistake pizza. So she was not Julia Roberts, she was I think, 20 whatever. I think she's like, 2021. She was a baby. She goes to his apartment, Gary's with her. Gary leaves the room. This is the way the story goes. Gary leaves the room. He's like, I got to go to bathroom so he can get to get to know her. And then like, 15 minutes later, he still hasn't come back. He calls up Richard, on the phone and goes Richard, what do you think, while she's at the room, and while he's on the phone, Julia Roberts writes on a post it writes a little note on the post that and then shows it to her. And it says, Please say yes. And, and, and Richard, of course fell in love with her at that moment. And the rest, as they say is history. But that was just a, you know, just a that's fate like you can't and how the and how Julia Roberts was even considered for that role. So many stars had to align to get there. There is that there is that?

Felicity Wren 1:02:53
But I think the the friends thing, sorry to interrupt you, I would say with friends is that all that money didn't make them happy? Not everyone?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:02
Absolutely. You're absolutely right.

Felicity Wren 1:03:05
So actually having a happy life is more valuable than being an Oscar winner. Or the best screenwriter, or the most famous actress, or the most, you know, being happy with yourself and with your who you are as a human being is me for Be careful what you wish for. Because it might just come true.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:27
And people listening like oh, I want to be a famous this or I want to you know, direct that or I want to write this. They don't understand what that entails and what trade offs you have to do. If you want to be the biggest movie star in the world. There is some trade offs. You want to you want to write on a studio project. There is some trade offs. You want to direct the Marvel movie. There is some trade offs things that you don't understand because you've never sat in that chair. And I've been blessed by being able to talk to a lot of these writers and directors who do sit in these chairs. So I hear all the stories. So when Kevin Fay he does call me for Avengers part five. I'm ready. I'm ready. So Kevin, if you're listening, I'll take the meeting. I'll always take the meeting. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked my my guest Felicity what are three screens? What are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?

Felicity Wren 1:04:28
God Yeah, get out. What's God is the one that's just it's Emily Blunt and john because

Alex Ferrari 1:04:40
Chris was quiet place. quiet place. Yes. a quiet place you should read that because i think i love about that. Is that so imaginative about how they, how they put it on the page. You know, I mean, they kind of did something different and want to Jim Hart's ones. I would either go Dracula or hook one of those people. Jim Jim, a friend of the show, Jim. And, and yeah, that hook. God are the stories of Hogan and Dracula. Oh, god, they're they're amazing. Yes. All great choices. Also, I wanted to kind of highlight what you guys do over at the ICA. So let's you're what you're helping screenwriters as well as we are, what are you doing? What are the resources you guys have for screenwriters? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Felicity Wren 1:05:31
Yeah, thank you. The I will, I'm the VP of development for the International screenwriters Association. It was started by someone who was a actor turned screenwriter who moved from Chicago to LA and was like, oh, my goodness ever wants to take my money and no one is doing what they said they were going to do. So he just started as an online resource for screenwriters, so that you could check stuff out. It's a place of community for screenwriters is a place where you can put your profile up, you can put your screenplays, you can put posters sizzles. So you can make it a place with other screenwriters where you can completely put your brand in one area. We have producers that are signed up to the site, and they definitely go through and look at talent and look at screenwriters, you can promote your success on it. And then it's also full of the other half of the business. So that's you and your craft and your career. There's a lot of teaching elements of it too. But there's also the business side. So we have it's called ISO insider where movie make a variety of all the news comes through. So you can have a look at that. There's pro tips and tricks about what's going on in the industry, red carpet interviews, interviews, like such as yourself. But as you go and speak to directors and producers and see what they're doing and how they how they found a way in the world. So it's always just it's a hub really, for you to find people like you and information you might need. I also want a development slate of 172 writers, which is a top tier writer pool of scripts I found through contests and referrals and success stories, just brilliant success stories. I love following people who are doing well and telling people about it. That's the other thing if you weren't doing well, not to be obnoxious. But let people know. Let people know that said no to you in the past, let people know that helped you on the way say thank you. Those those are all we all like to feel that we've you know, it reminds me that we're all connected. And in some way, even the pizza takes hundreds of people to make it, you know, want to grow the corn did my middle look on? You know, like? Yeah, I mean, it's, we're we're also interconnected, I think COVID showed us that more than ever, is that we actually all need each other. So to be in a place where you kind of go like, okay, we're all here again. And when it is when times are difficult. And when you have those moments where you're dealing with delusional people, things are down there to have these other people that will lift you up and say like, I really believe in you and you know, keep going.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:11
Now in England, do they have pizza made of corn? Because I wasn't aware that corn was an ingredient in pizza. So I was just I just wanted to clarify because I haven't been to England. I'm not sure if that's the thing. I just want to be prepared. If there is corn pizza, not to look like an outsider. Yeah. I'm sorry, I couldn't let it go. I now have weeds. Oh, god damn it. Yeah, you're right. As you were talking, was you were talking like Did she just say corn? I can't let that go away. About the tortilla pizzas. Everyone. It's it's very LA. It's very la it's very la with the tortilla pizzas. So what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Felicity Wren 1:09:11
Find your people. I think. Go on Facebook, join all this amazing groups. Go on Twitter, go on Instagram do all the social media stuff and find all the people are out there doing it. Hashtag screenwriter is massive on Twitter, you need to be following that. And from there you will find lots of screenwriters and showrunners and producers because they're all looking on there to it became an again an amazing when the industry changed. It became a place for people to find each other so and I also think is a place where you can celebrate so if someone has got a new project out and you've seen that in the trades, because you're now reading the trades as part of your job. You can then congratulate them on Twitter or Facebook or wherever and they do notice if you keep saying and if you say something smart If you're funny, the other thing to do in those Facebook groups is to help others so that if someone says I need a script reading or I need a logline looking at be one of those people that offers advice that does help out, not to your own detriment to avoid writing. But do it enough so that you're a person that's part of the community that's actually trying to make this stuff happen, then I think it's hard to kind of enter contests and fellowships and look for grants and see if there's like a little area in your hometown, if you're not in LA, that that has projects that they're working on, volunteer on, find people are writing shorts, or producing shorts, film, schools, volunteer go to be unset, you can learn a lot from being on set, I think, one about how actors and directors work with each other with lines, but also just how the whole process is so that you can be a better screenwriter, I think really immersing yourself in the job, then read, read all the time, read other people's scripts, read scripts, whilst watching the movie, see how much they changed it. If your TV's your thing, kind of get into TV, t scripts, TV scripts, and then it's the start putting pictures together, start practice looking at pitch decks, thinking about so you actually act as a producer for yourself if you are going to create this because it's probably in your mind. So then how can you put it on the page? What's the tone? Who would you have in it as your dream cast? Why now why you why you this writer, put that all in the pitch deck, even if he never send anywhere which you should, even if you don't, it means you can talk about it more eloquently. If someone asks you about it. Practice your pictures for 10 minutes, one to two minute one, one minute, Mark, as Alex was saying about that. And keep learning don't give up. Be persevere, believe and know that you have your your own journey in this process. Don't compare yourself to anyone else. It's miserable. And pointless.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:57
And bitter, bitter, bitter screenwriter, the bitter filmmaker

Felicity Wren 1:12:02
just makes you feel horrible. What's the point in doing that? You know, it doesn't touch them at all. And you just going around going it should have been me It should have been me and it's like my eye and just makes no sense. Just try and do something better.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:17
Or just do something that you that they can't do that do that thing that you can do and only you can do. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Felicity Wren 1:12:35
self belief. I think that is the hardest one. And unfortunately, nothing in any aspect of your life works without it. You have to believe in yourself. You have to think that you're worthy. So self worth, I think, and it's an ongoing process. I'd like to say I'm there but I'm there on Sundays that you know, I was nervous about doing this. I will beat myself up afterwards about times I stumbled over words you know, I mean, so it's a continuing, we're all a work in progress. So I guess remember that and let yourself off the hook about it. You know? I haven't killed anybody yet. You know, so I'm not a murderer. So it's their worst things.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:15
Exactly. And I've already forgotten about the corn pizza. Oh my god. My name is facility worm when I eat corn pizza. I'm telling you that is a teenage sleuth book series. Right now you and I should we should go operate. And last question three of your favorite films of all time. Okay. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Surely.

Felicity Wren 1:13:46
So good. The only thing is I have to have 10 minutes afterwards to cry. I literally have to cry for 10 minutes afterwards because I'm so sad about my life choices and so happy about them at the same time. It's one of those things that you know if you had to do it all again, would you Yeah, yeah. It does it hurt like hell. Yeah, so it's just I love I love the imagination of it the magic of it. I mean, I was gonna then go, can I do for because then I would then that leads me to the Truman Show. I'm a very kind of I'm very think a very big fan of Jim Carrey. I think he is underrated as an actor. He's I mean, he is a modern David Van Dyck again massive fan of his. I think he is so versatile and so talented. And people when he was in this in a stereotype box for a while, but you know, he he is incredible. I think he's an amazing, man. Amazing. So so those are my two. I'm going to link those together even though they're not the same. And then the hours I just love because I really enjoyed Steven daughters directing. I just think the script itself is so beautiful. I haven't seen So I hadn't seen many pictures with three very dynamic and different female leads, who kind of that ensemble was such an ensemble piece. And it was, I'll never forget that image of Julianne Moore on the bed, reading the book and the water just coming at her feeling like she's drowning by being a housewife. And as someone who doesn't want to be a housewife, I really, really kind of really spoke to me. So the hours and the storytelling is beautiful. And the acting is incredible. And then I think, a bit more recent, is arrival. Because I just, Oh, my God is such a smart script. And it just, when you understand what it's been doing with you at the end, how it's been messing with your mind. I was I was just blown away by the ingenuity of it and the the stylishness, exotic sophistication of it, and and I also hate it when alien aliens are portrayed as the enemy, because I feel like it's another form of racism. It's all like,

Alex Ferrari 1:16:11
who's not you is an alien ism.

Felicity Wren 1:16:14
Yeah, it's an alien is a racist. Everything is this whole thing about keeping us divided, you know, anyone that's not you is to be feared. You know, and I feel like, I love that about arrival. It turned that on its head. And it gave us an same time humans, we're gonna help them too. So it wasn't a case of we've come to rescue you it was a partnership. So I really enjoyed that about

Alex Ferrari 1:16:35
and where can people find out more about what you find about you. And what you do over at ICA?

Felicity Wren 1:16:43
well, you can find us at www dot network iaasa.org. And I am on the website there. You can I mean, basically, you can just go this is a really kind of big website, you can go and have a bit of a poke around Have a look isn't so much free stuff on it, there is a $10 a month or $99 a year membership. That puts you want to slightly, it's called IRC Connect, it's a slightly more elevated membership, the rest of it is free. And that basically just means that you get for free contest entries a year which is actually worth more than the fee you pay to be on it. And you have a few more things that adjust for you extra classes and stuff like that. But you can have a look. It's all free, have a wander around. I'm there.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:28
Very cool. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you had a lot of fun. And I'm I hope this episode helps a few screenwriters out there and hopefully they're not crying curled up in a corner somewhere in the fetal position. After this conversation, I hope they are empowered to move forward with their dreams and their careers. So thank you so much for that.

Felicity Wren 1:17:48
It was such a pleasure to meet you.

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BPS 129: Inside Creating Top Gun & Writing in Hollywood with Jack Epps Jr.

November 14, 2021July 14, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

It is an absolute thrill to have Jack Epps Jr. on the show today. The award-winning writer, USC Cinematic Arts professor and filmmaker is a member of the Writer’s Guild of America and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. He’s best known for writing Top Gun, The Secret of My Success, Turner & Hooch, and Anaconda 1997 screenplay.

Jack first became involved in making films while doing his undergraduate at Michigan State University. Inspired by a student film festival, Epps made his first film the following semester which became Pig vs. Freaks that was later titled Off Sides.

Top Gun was Epps’ big break. He partnered with Jim Cash who was his screenwriting professor at Michigan State University, to write several projects and Top Gun was one of those screenplays. Top Gun’s success was seismic. It became a box office number one grossing $ 357.1 million on a $ 15 million budget while also stacking several accolades including an Academy Award, Golden Globes, and a number of other international film awards.

As students at the United States Navy’s elite fighter weapons school compete to be the best in the class, one daring young pilot (Tom Cruise) learns a few things from a civilian instructor that are not taught in the classroom.

Epps is credited for the original screenplay in the sequel, Top Gun: Maverick which will be released this November.

Epps shares co-writing credits with Jim Cash and Hans Bauer for the screenplay of the Anaconda adventure horror film series of 1997 and 2004. The first story follows a National Geographic film crew in the Amazon Rainforest that is taken hostage by an insane hunter, who forces them along on his quest to capture the world’s largest – and deadliest – snake.

While the first film did not receive critical acclamation, it grossed $136.8 million worldwide against a budget of $45 million.

In the second film, Anaconda: The Hunt for the Blood Orchid, the premise is quite similar. A scientific expedition team of researchers set for an expedition into the Southeast Asian tropical island of Borneo, to search for a sacred flower for which they believe will bring humans to a longer and healthier life, but soon become stalked and hunted by the deadly giant anacondas inhabiting the island.

Here is a clip of Gordon (Morris Chestnut) after being paralyzed from a spider bite, who comes face to face with death.

These are some classics and I couldn’t wait to chat with Jack about his creative journey—from his work as a cinematographer and an assistant cameraman on various local productions, to his love for writing or reviewing romantic comedies films like Viva Rock Vegas, and Sister Act.

Let’s dig in, shall we? Enjoy this conversation with Jack Epps.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Today's show is sponsored by indie film hustles filmmaker process. We provide filmmakers with professional services to get their films or series funded, finished and distributed. For more information, go to filmmaker process.com. I'd like to welcome to the show jack Epps Jr. Hey doing jack. I'm doing really well. Nice to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm, I'm excited to kind of get into the weeds about your career, because you've written some of some of the some, you know, classic 80s and 90s films that I grew up with. And again, the audience will get tired of me saying this, but you had an impact on my video store days when I was working at the video store.

Exactly. So all of all of your films in your especially the 80s and early 90s, all the stuff that you wrote was like I was there, moving the boxes, record, recommending them to the to the customers coming in. So let me ask you, how did you how did you get started in the business?

Jack Epps 1:04
Well, you know, it's one of those sort of long stories in the sense of, I became interested in film as an undergraduate at Michigan State University. I'm from Detroit, Michigan, moved out to California because I just fell in love with movies. And I said, This is what I want to do with my life. I actually came out to California to be a director, because I was making short films, had no money, virtually no contacts and the best way to direct was on paper and started writing. And, and, and through a friend I met at Michigan State Anderson house, his dad knew the producer of Hawaii Five o and said if we wrote a treatment, he could get it to him. So we actually put together treatment called the capsule kidnapping, sent it to his dad was sent to the Phil de Kok, who sent it to the the showrunner, who then called us and said, We love this idea. So quickly, I sold it exact so we sold the script, and and had a Hawaii Five o produced very, very quickly. I mean, and then we worked together for a couple years trying to get other things produced. And we sold a Kojak and things like that, but didn't really move forward a lot. At the same time. I had to pay rent. And so I was because I was a filmmaker. I was actually an assistant cameraman. And so doing a lot of work on stuff like that. I actually worked for Orson Welles on the other side of the wind. River, what was that? Like? You know, it was really great because it was there is Orson Welles. It the story of how it happened is my wife was my girlfriend at the time. She was working as a typist. And so she got a call from her temp agents agency and said Orson Welles needs somebody and she didn't she she was in Peoria, nanofilm family. So she goes Orson Welles, I know the name. I said, Don't worry, just go meet him. Because I knew the less she would know the more he would like her. And so he hired her. And then I said he got to get me on this film. You got to get me on this film. So I spent a couple months with Orson and Gary graver on the grand was great because it's Orson Welles. A really nice, I mean, he didn't throw any temper tantrum. It wasn't like this big. He was just Orson Welles and there's the guy and you're some pitching myself. I said, I cannot believe I'm pulling focus on Orson Welles here.

Alex Ferrari 3:18
That's that's amazing in that booming voice that he has and the whole persona. Oh, my God, I must have been amazing. So yeah, so and everyone listening, when you're starting off as a screenwriter, generally it works out that you write a spec pilot for a television show, hit television show, and it gets picked up right away, and then you start making lots of money just like yourself, correct?

Jack Epps 3:40
Absolutely not. What happened is I then my my college screenwriting teacher, Jim cash had contacted me and said, we should write together. And so Gemini, we went back to Michigan to pick up my motorcycle to drive back to California. I looked him up. We sat down at the school union, and we pitched out eight ideas. I didn't think anything worked. We said, thanks, goodbye. I was riding back cross country. And I said, you know, this idea actually works. And Jim and I spent the next two and a half years doing about five different drafts and figure out how to write together long distance because he was in East Lansing and I was in Santa Monica. We wrote a script finally that I felt was ready to take it to go into the business to let out because I had learned enough through internships and things to know that you really have to enter the business at a high level, the script has to be very, very good read. It's got to be a good story and show off your work as writers and storytellers. And that script was called easy and Mo. And we got representation to major agency through a friend who recommended us and it got optioned by bud yorkin, of yorkin and Lear. And so suddenly, we were paid some pretty good option money that may be Let's say we should stay at this. So we were lucky that our first spec actually got options.

Alex Ferrari 5:07
That right and again, a lot of in a lot of times when a lot of screenwriters think that just because you get to option, it's an automatic production, and that's not the case at all, most, most option scripts don't get into production. Is that Is that a fair statement? Or is that the truth?

Jack Epps 5:22
I mean, it's what it what it does is want to push it. So yes, no, Izzy mo never got made. But yorkin, who was your King Lear could not get it made. And so but what it did is it put us on a spotlight, people knew we were there. And then we did a second script, a second spec script, which was called Old gold. And that was a sort of a Charmin chase adventure set in San Francisco, about a fortune 100 looking for lost gold from the Nazis that ended up in San Francisco. And then that got that got bought on an auction. And so we earned good money. I mean, this was like, Okay, this is not we're throwing ourselves into it. But that didn't get me.

Alex Ferrari 6:04
And it was I I've spoken to so many screenwriters over the years and known many during my time in the business that sometimes you look at an IMDb filmography, and you're like, oh, they've only done three movies. I'm like, Yeah, but they've been working steadily for a decade. And just because they haven't been produced. I mean, they're still pulling in six figures a year, and working on major projects that just either they're rewriting or polishing a script doctoring. And don't get don't get made, is that your experience as well?

Jack Epps 6:36
Absolutely. And what I learned very quickly is that if a studio has a choice between their idea or your idea, they're always going with their idea. So why not develop their ideas, which they already invested in. And smartkey is you have to turn into your idea. You have to, you know, I have to make it, you've got to own it, but realize that you're writing for them, and you want to make the producers and the studios happy. So we then started writing an assignment. And we had six unproduced screenplays. And then yeah, we did Dick Tracy, for four directors that got shelved wasn't getting me. We then Simpson Bruckheimer. We actually through Jeff Katzenberg was involved in Dick Tracy because it was actually owned by Universal and paramount. So it was a joint production. They had international and domestic rights. And so Jeff Katzenberg liked our work and wanted to hire us after Dick Tracy and I had a breakfast meeting the famous ADM breakfast meeting with Katzenberg. And he rolled out six ideas of which I thought this really interesting idea be stood out to me. Yeah, based on this school pilots called Top Gun. And I thought, wow, I actually got my private pilot's license at Michigan State, they had a flying club. So I thought, well, if the movie doesn't get made, I'll get to fly in the Navy jet. So

Alex Ferrari 8:05
okay, it's a it's a win, win win. So why would this one get made but flying a Navy jet? That's a hard thing to get to do. If you've got to go through you have to jump through a few hoops to get to that tough life to say the least. So So okay, so the original idea for top gun was basic was Jeff Katzenberg kind of threw out the like, hey, there's a school of pilots figure something out?

Jack Epps 8:29
Well, actually, it was actually, Jerry Brock number. Okay, we found an article in a California magazine. Based on that there was a school and they were these pilots. And they were having fun. There was no story, no characters, but it was a potential world. And so Jerry brought it to, you know, the producer would do brought it to he was had a deal of paramount, with Don Simpson, and Paramount want to develop the idea. And so for us, it was like, okay, we just finished Tracy and that was not be going into production. And so, here,

Alex Ferrari 9:02
this is at 45. Perfect Tracy.

Jack Epps 9:04
Actually, Dick Tracy was actually in the early 80s. Right? I went for directors on that project.

Alex Ferrari 9:11
And we'll get to that we'll get to Deke Tracy it a little bit down the line. But so so with top guns, you're you're basically on assignment, essentially, you got it was an open assignment. Jerry came up with the the concept of just the world and you guys came up with Maverick and Iceman and and the whole thing. I mean, so Okay, so when you're writing this, it's another assignment. You're like, this is not going to get me both hell, we'll have some fun. And we're getting paid to do it. So you didn't think it was Did you have any idea that it was actually going to go into production? Did you feel something?

Jack Epps 9:44
Well, so basically, sips are Bruckheimer when I met with him, I said, Look, guys, I don't want to do this unless we can actually get the planes okay. really don't want to have these like little CGI is not what it is today. Right today. hold off. But then you could not. And so they agree. We went back to the Pentagon, we got approval by the Pentagon, they gave me a technical adviser and Pete Pettigrew. I went to doubt the ns, Miramar. And I got to fly jets. And

Alex Ferrari 10:18
you were in the back like you were there. Oh, absolutely.

Jack Epps 10:21
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. A couple of things happen. One is the F 14. Wow. I fell in love with the plane. I really didn't know about military planes at that time. And I fell in love with the firm for one, two reasons. One, it looks incredibly cool on the ground. It's like, wow, this thing is just the fastest, most beautiful thing ever designed. And two, it had two people flying in it, a front seat and a back seat. And I didn't really know about that. And that gave me a relationship. So I already went, yes. I don't have to have guys going from plane to going aren't Maverick, how are you doing in the country? How are you? So I can actually have these two people and former relationships, which gave me a core to develop in the story. So I said, Great. We've got a relationship. But I'm looking for all the guys there are great. Get along. And I'm going for where's the conflict? What am I writing here? I've got to look for the conflict. And then it came to me, like one of those bolts of thunder and lightning is what if one guy doesn't get along? What happens if you got a guy who sticks out like a sore thumb? What happens to this environment? Maverick is born. So I had the conflict. And then we just start building out the story from there in a sense. And I pitched the Donald jury said, Look, we're gonna do a school movie, but it's kind of a real fight in the end, guys. It we're not going to have a school. It's got a he said yeah, like Star Wars at the end. Absolutely. That's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do Star Wars, you know, then big dog fights for real stakes at the end. So I did all this research. Simply Bruckheimer great. I said, Look, guys, you gotta leave us alone, just let us go away, we're gonna have to find the story. I can't pitch it to you, you got to trust us. And if you don't want to trust us get somebody else. Because we just can't go through this development process. We have to find it. And they were great. They said guys go away. Afterwards, they said they will never do that again. So we were able to just find the story, you know, and that was a hard story to find the set in the school. I mean, so yeah, it's a school guys flying around. What's the story there? And so for us, that was the big thing, breaking that story, finding what that art was, and who those characters were in the relationships and what the whole, the drama of it was.

Alex Ferrari 12:30
And then, I mean, obviously, the top cons of a classic film. And you know, when I was when I've seen I've seen it a million times. But that whole movie is all about character. It's it's like, the plot is the plot moves things along, but it is about character so heavily as opposed to like, Sherlock Holmes story, which is all plot and character kind of rides along. It. Would you agree? I mean, this is The Iceman and Maverick and his interest and his father and that, that baggage that he's carrying and in the conflict between him and Iceman, which is just amazing. And we'll talk about all the stars aligning in a minute, but as far as the character, do you agree with that?

Jack Epps 13:12
Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that that's why we couldn't pitch it. It's almost an pinchable script, because it's like, well, what happens? And it's like, because so much came out of the research, I did about 40 hours worth of interviews with pilots. My first Pentagon had an assistant in there with me, and they wouldn't talk and I said, Look, you gotta get out. I'm sorry, I got to talk to these guys alone. No, I won't. And then they call the Pentagon. So yeah, leave him alone. And then the guys opened up and you know, learn about their lives and met these guys. So they were inspiring as people. But also, Jim and I were athletes, so we knew what it meant to be on a team and to and to try to make sure you're, you know, the sense of being, you know, one of the stars on the team, you know, you got to be the best, you know, that's part of what sort of the drive for excellence is. But it's a long way to get to your question. We had in the script, shift, Simpson breakdown, we loved it. They loved this movie, but Paramount said, I don't get it. I don't ever want to see the course. Of course, all these planes in the sky. It's like this. So they said no. And they put it on a shelf. So there's number seven unproduced motion picture. And so we thought we had something we believed in and so it sounded Simpson Bruckheimer but not going to happen. So we went on to our next project legal legals with Ivan Reitman.

Alex Ferrari 14:35
Not a bad, not a bad project, not

Jack Epps 14:37
a bad thing. And Ivan was great. And it wasn't until the studio changed

Unknown Speaker 14:43
it, you

Jack Epps 14:44
know, the executives and new jackets came in Franklin cuzzo, who called Simpson Bruckheimer. I said, Guys, we have nothing in the cupboards Do you have anything you want to make? And they pulled the script down and said, Oh, we got this project we'd like to make and they said, Go do it.

Alex Ferrari 14:58
That it's just just like And then what I find so fascinating about that film specifically is it was a perfect alignment where Jerry and Don were were coming up they had they had already started building from Flashdance. I think it was in probably a little bit before, but they started to build but they weren't yet, Jerry and that they weren't Bruckheimer Simpson completely yet. That Top Gun is what took them to the next level. So you have young producers who are about to explode. They bring in a commercial director who had done one other I think he did, what did he what was the other film that he did? Oh, hunger, the hunger. So vampire film in brought him in. And then this young actor who had been had success with risky business, but yet wasn't Tom Cruise, all of these things aligned. And it exploded into this, this supernova, essentially. And that movie was a massive for people understood triple net wasn't around at that time. It's a massive hit. And one of the best recruitment tools the Navy has ever had. And probably still as to this day.

Jack Epps 16:08
We wrote the movie for Tom. Yeah, we wrote it with him in mind from the very beginning. When we, when he gave the script to Don Jerry, I said to Don said to Jerry, I said, think Tom Cruise when you read this? And they said, Yep, absolutely. And that was the only person that they they went after Tom. Yeah, but Tom, but only factors. Part of it was because because of character. You know, Mary is a bit of a jerk. And so he's really arrogant. So you've got to have an actor that you're going to like you're going to stay with, or else you're just going to go eff this guy, I'm out of here. And so and Tom did that he was the young American, so to speak, and he represented that sort of this bravado and, you know, pushing at the limit and, and, and, and they nailed it. They got him and that was and he was great. He actually he understood it. And he's played Maverick for the rest of his career.

Alex Ferrari 16:59
It's It's such a Top Gun in the car and Top Gun. He said that's what he did. He developed to Tom Cruise's and Top Gun basically. And he's, I remember some comedians, like I love that movie with Tom Cruise with his young cocky white guy. Oh, you mean every movie? Got it? Okay, got it. All right, great. Yeah, got it. But but but all to be all fair, fair, though. That is a very slippery slope as an actor and a character to play because you're right. He's arrogant as hell but yet for some reason. You love him. What do you think about maverix character? Is it partly how it's written and obviously how Tom performed it. But I think there there was meat in the script that allowed you to feel empathy towards him. I think it might be the father baggage that you kind of, because if you don't add that baggage, I don't think he's as there's no empathy there. I don't know. What do you think?

Jack Epps 17:54
Yeah, no, I think that's all part of the story. And part of it, we made him a second chance character. He was the underdog. Remember, he didn't have he wasn't going first. He had to win. A Cougar had to hand in his wings for him to get in. So he was he was always the underdog. And we tend to root for underdogs. And Iceman, of course, immediately is a is a great counterpart. And the rivalry makes your root for Tom, you want to you want to stick a nice man's face and you're rooting for him. And, and, you know, you also feel for him. You know, he's he wants to do it, right. He's got some stuff. He's got to work out. Hopefully, you can work it out.

Alex Ferrari 18:31
Right. And he but but at the end of the day, he's a good guy trying to do good work. And, you know, he's trying to be all you can be, as they say, we've got some things to learn. Yeah, no question. And and I mean, how were you excited to know that they were breaking making the sequel? Yeah, yeah, I

Jack Epps 18:50
was excited. And I was happy that one times involved and Jerry's doing it because Jerry Be true to the to the movie. And I know that he'll keep the continuity going with that. And that. So I think, you know, I'm excited to see it. I've read it. I know, I know what they've done. I can't talk about it, because there's any talk about it, but I think people will like it because it is a continuation.

Alex Ferrari 19:11
It's a true sequel. It's a true SQL.

Jack Epps 19:13
Yeah, yeah, it is. It's a continuation it's it's it's not just a different movie. It's the characters come back and there's some there's growth and development.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now, so you already are you worried working illegals when before Top Gun gets into production?

Jack Epps 19:29
Yes. So we went from having seven unproduced screenplays to three films in production in 11 months Jesus, that's unheard of. It was it was insane because suddenly you have doctrines in production legalizes production and secret my successes in production. Cheese, so

Alex Ferrari 19:45
So for people again that weren't around at the time legal Eagles will start obviously, Robert Redford, Daryl Hannah and Debra Winger. That was a massive hit. It was and then and then secret of my success, which by the way, personally, one of my favorite 80s films, all I watched that. When I was a kid I watched I must have watched that story in that film 100 times because I was I was Michael J. Fox, I wanted it, you know, it was during It was during the Wall Street day. So yeah, I wanted to make it in business and all of that kind of stuff. And it was just such a wonderful film. And that was a huge that was a massive hit as well. It was it was Michael J. Fox at the peak of his powers. Yep.

Jack Epps 20:24
Right after back the future one. And he was great. I mean, Michael was fabulous. We wrote it for him, we were brought into a rewrite. So basically, it was it was a screenwriters dream. Frank price, who is the Executive of universal, newest? Well, like to work, I pitched him an idea. And they said, What if we took that idea and put it into this movie we have wasn't called secret of success, success at that time, something else? And I said, Yeah, sure. So we did a page one and just went through the whole script. But what's great is they said, we have to start on June 1, because we have Michael J. Fox, and then we have to end by August, something because he's going back to his show, family ties. And, and so they had to shoot what we wrote,

Alex Ferrari 21:05
although there was no chances to rewrite, so it was perfect for you guys.

Jack Epps 21:10
Exactly. So we just we just bust through it had a great time. And really, you know, no, you don't when you're writing for Michael J. Fox gives you a lot of fun in the script. And we also wanted to not demonize business as it always is. But as you were saying, people with ambition, and and that character, I have a you know, coming to want to make his place in the world. And also, I wanted to do a, I've always wanted to have a big Billy Wilder fan, and wanted to do a, you know, a character who's assuming an identity. So a guy who's playing two identities, I always want to work that and that's really difficult to write that and, and but it was fun. It was a lot of fun to do it. And we were really pleased with the outcome. And herb Ross, who was the director, was a Broadway director. So he liked the words. He wasn't one of your Broadway direct, you direct the words and he wasn't playing with him and was really just going for it. And I thought I thought the movie really worked out well.

Alex Ferrari 22:06
Now with those three films, I mean, it's kind of unheard of for a screenwriting team, a writer screenwriters in general, to have that many hits back to back to back in such short amount of time as well. How did the town treat you? I mean, after Top Gun alone, I mean, I'm sure your phone was ringing off the hook at that point. Well, in my as my agent would say, at that time, don't ask they're not available. Everybody was reaching out to you at that point. It was you were the belle of the ball, as I like to say,

Jack Epps 22:36
right, it was that stuff. And because we knew Katzenberg and liked him. We worked at Disney worked on SR act. You know, we did a major rewrite on that. Turner and hooch you know, Jim, Jim didn't want to write topcat originally, because he didn't like planes. He didn't like flying planes. So he had a phobia. I said, don't worry about it, we'll do it. So he did it for me. And then he wanted to turn around hoops because it's a, you know, he's has dogs. He's like four dogs. And he's, I want to write a dog movie. Okay, I owe you one. So we sort of trade it off. You know, it, you know, things just came our way. And so it was it was it was fun. It was different. Because we were unknown people left us alone. And and the more known you got the Mormons looking over your shoulder. And that was a very different experience in terms of just how that changed a little bit.

Alex Ferrari 23:25
And for people listening, especially young screenwriters coming up, I mean, yeah, you had a lot of success in a shorter amount of time, but you had been putting in the years of work. Prior to that, like you said, there was seven unproduced six unproduced screenplays. Yeah, you had representation. Yeah, you'd optioned a few things. But you would have been, it's not like you just woke up one morning and like, oh, here's Top Gun, like it took you years to get to that place. And I think screenwriters young screenwriters need to understand that you've got to put in the work, and it's not going to happen overnight.

Jack Epps 23:55
I think we were actually fortunate that we didn't get our first movies produced. I think we would have grown as writers. No,

Alex Ferrari 24:02
you're right. You're right.

Jack Epps 24:03
I think we have tapped ourselves in the back and saying how brilliant we were. And we would have been very happy at that level. And, you know, first movies are fine. They're good reads. But we had to grow. And we had to work harder and dig deeper, to basically teach ourselves how, you know, just because every trying to figure out how does this thing work, and to basically and the more and more we got to character was was really, really the breakthrough, you know, telling stories about people lives in crisis. You know, rewriting is a big part of what Jim and I did together. And it you know, we just realized you had to dig in. I mean, like I said, For Dick Tracy, we went through four directors, and for each director, we did two drafts.

Alex Ferrari 24:43
Now, let's jump into Dick Tracy really quickly. So I remember 9090 very well. I was right smack in the middle of my video store days. So I was it was in the heat and that was Dick Tracy I think and please correct me wrong. This is my assumption. Dick Tracy got greenlit and got fast tracked into production after Batman came out in 89. Because that kind of just changed that just changed the landscape all of a sudden superhero movies. Were it because prior to Batman for people not understanding because now every week there's a new Batman or Superman or Marvel film coming out. There was a time there was a time where there was one maybe and it took every two or three years before you'd get orders something like that. Before Batman, there was Superman and Superman had pretty much petered off after Donner left. So when Batman came out, which was a absolute insane, massive hit, Dick Tracy showed up and then Dick Tracy, I you know, watching it, I mean, it had Danny Elfman music, it had a lot of tonality. from Batman, it was a dark Dick Tracy was, you know, that the world was so it was, by the way, just so beautifully constructed. And the colors were so vibrant and the performer I mean, you had a look at a class but Donna alpa Chino will enforce I am Warren Beatty, it's just amazing. Was Am I am I correct in saying that? That was the reason why I got fast tracked?

Jack Epps 26:06
Yeah, I think so. I think it was the, at that point, looking for something to have the big superhero type movie like that, and it was ready to go. The script is ready. And in in Warren, people saw him as the only that was one of the problems getting that movie made is that Warren was who everybody saw his Dick Tracy, it was nobody else. And that becomes a problem because he's, well, we only make it with Warren. And when we start we first started the script with john Landis, who for my business would have been probably the most interesting, wacky, crazy. Dick Tracy. JOHN had that terrible Twilight Zone accident. He exited. Then we got Walter Hill, who was who taught me a lot. Walter was a screenwriter editor. Oh, a good director. Yeah. And he basically taught us a lot he you know, it's funny, because we're a little arrogant, you know, you know, we've been doing really well. And Walter asked us to do a fix on the script. And we push back to No, we don't want to do this. And he said, Well, okay,

Alex Ferrari 27:02
I'll do it.

Jack Epps 27:03
I'll write it, don't worry about it. And we went, Oh, hold on a second here. You know, that's not a bad idea. We'll do it. Because you don't want to direct your writing. You want to stay the writer. So we said, Oh, I think I understand what you mean. So you know, and Walter taught us a lot, how to hang in the game, and also how to focus the characters. Well, I mean, you know, and then, Walter, that, as I understand the story, you will talk to Warren and hit and Warren said, Can I watch the dailies? and Walter said, No, I never let actors walk daily watch dailies. And Warren said, Thank you, God. Movie crashes, Dick Benjamin comes on to do a cheap version, Dick Tracy. We cut the script down for budget. That doesn't happen. And then Warren ends up after a couple years of languishing, walking over to Paramount and getting the rights and moving the rights to Disney. And then once he's on board, and he's directing, I thought we met you know, more, or I went and met and talked and he's a good director, you know, I mean, so he was Should I direct this? I said, Absolutely. You know, who are doing better than you?

Alex Ferrari 28:05
Yeah, and it was it was I think people wanted it to be the next Batman and I don't remember but it wasn't once a hit it didn't didn't do good business right.

Jack Epps 28:14
It could business it wasn't quite what everyone wanted it to be. It didn't it didn't get the debt super numbers in there. There was a to me there was a lot of things crammed into that movie. Like and he had Stephen Stephen Sondheim songs. You can't complain about that. But they took up a lot of space. A bit of a musical, you know? Yeah, I'm surprised no one's done dictation the musical so far since it would work.

Alex Ferrari 28:41
Yeah, Madonna was at the height of her powers as well. So they had to put there has to be a couple of you know, song and dance numbers with Madonna in it because that's why we're hiring her. So and that's another thing that screenwriters and filmmakers sometimes don't understand is that there's there's politics involved here. There's a lot of politics involved in there's a lot of not only egos, but you know, agendas that need to be cramped like you said a lot of things were crammed in because there was so much pressure on that film I'm surprised that it did as well as it did because of the amount of pressure you they were they were hoping for another Batman and that's like that's you know, lightning in a bottle it doesn't happen very often. And it's still in we're still good enough that it did do good business but obviously didn't you know break out into what what Batman was but it still holds up very well today. I watched it the other day it was it still holds up very well.

Jack Epps 29:30
Or the Lucky's great Richard silver did amazing direction let's say the colors and Warren was working to create a sort of a comic book structure if you look at the setups are almost like it's by panels. Comic panels. He was trying to do that specifically. And you know you've got great roles with with Dustin Hoffman doing mumble

Alex Ferrari 29:48
Oh yeah. forgot to say of course. Yeah. No, it's all in everybody come in and do this little stuff. Like, exactly. He's just like, Hey, can you just come down and do this this character for us, please, but when you're watching Better you could do things like that now, but I have to ask you though, how did you convert or adapt a comic strip? to, to a feature film? I mean, it's not like a comic book, if I'm not mistaken. Right? It was mostly comic strips, right? It wasn't like this. It was just comic strips like you would read in the Sunday paper. So how do you take that and adapt it into a major motion picture?

Jack Epps 30:24
I'm a big believer in research. I did a lot of research on Top Gun secrets success. We had a technical adviser for business. So I could ask him questions about business because I didn't really I didn't want to make stuff up. I wanted to, you know, so I could put totally could feel like it's based on something for Dick Tracy. I asked. Universal. Can you get me all the comic strips that Chester Gould wrote? Like, can you get them and they got me from 1932. The first one Oh, all the way up into the mid 50s. And so I sat down and read it like a book. I just literally read every comic strip, and I fell in love. I want to understand Chester Gould writing style, his intention, his storytelling, I want to know his characters. Because I had to be true to this. And I was, I was not the fan of the strip that Jim was, but I became a huge fan of Chester Gould, the creator, because he created all these wonderful characters. And I fell in love with characters, all that all his Google's characters, and my favorite being the blank. I just thought the blank was so interesting. So it's like, okay, we're going to construct your own story, because I can't do none of the strip stories at work, but I can take the characters. And at the very beginning, john Landis said he wants to set around Big Boy Caprice in the roaring 30s, so to speak, 20s 30s. And so that was our original walking orders. That big boy Caprice at the center of the story, so we had to figure out okay, what can we do? And then once I found the blank, I said, Okay, now I've got a character I love. Let's figure out what the story is. And we and we started building that out with the blank at the center of the mystery. And then telling basically, you know, basically prohibition style type story, which is sort of funny, those tropes and reach out and do those things.

Alex Ferrari 32:01
And the funny thing is now that, you know, Dick Tracy, always just speaking to his watch, and now we speak it to our exact Yeah, exactly. It was pretty rare. It's taken. I think that was even part of the apple ad campaign. They put a little bit of Dick Tracy in there, I think was even the Warren shot of him talking into it as part of the that's part of the ads. Now, you when you did legal eagles, you worked with Ivan Reitman, who's, you know, a legend in our business? What was it like working with Ivan and it was Ivan right after Ghostbusters. So he was he was on fire and fago as they say,

Jack Epps 32:40
Well, part of that was that our agent was frustrated too, that we didn't get anything made. We didn't get top down produce. So he said, Look, I'm gonna put you in, I'm gonna put you with Ivan Reitman, because they'll make anything he wants to make. At that point, Ivan was the hottest director in the world. And so he had this. I mean, his his idea he wanted to do a thing about the art world, and why to do sort of a romantic comedy set in the art world and so is up for us to once again, figure out what's the story? Who are the people, you know, it's like, okay, that's the assignment. Now, let's go figure out what it is. So again, I went to New York, went to the pace gallery, interview people, you know, just to figure out the environment of building building out the story. He did originally this this is one of the funny things originally, he wanted to take the characters from Tootsie, the Dustin Hoffman Bill Murray characters, and and that was the original cast idea. And wanted to put them build a movie around those guys. a whole different story. But that's where we got the district attorney. And then we got the, you know, the whole the fleabag sort of guy, which gives us the relationship that I've been wanting to explore. Well, he sent he we had half a script, he said, Look, I can't wait, I gotta send it to these guys. They won't sit around and wait. I happen to have the script notes. Give it to me now. So yes, sir. You know, exactly, exactly half a script. They said to Justin, well, Warren who just, you know, talk him into doing what's that crazy movie where you know, that horrible film,

Alex Ferrari 34:04
which went, um, oh, oh, it star

Jack Epps 34:09
is j star. Right? He taught me to do a star. So okay. So Dustin was availa. Bill Murray said, I hate attorneys. I'll never play an attorney in my life. So suddenly, that idea crashed. We've got half the script. So either goes, What about a romantic comedy with Robert Redford, you think you could do that? I said, Yeah, we can do that. I can do that. So we got to fly in the Columbia plane to St. George, Utah, meet with Bob hung out for a couple hours into that world. And, you know, found out that he was, you know, sort of self deprecating guy and make jokes about himself sort of a clumsiness, which we Yeah, exactly. Really. And, and we see that I said, well, Bob, we'd love to make that as part of the character, which we did. We wrote it with that sort of character. Although when they came to set, he wasn't quite thrilled to play that game. character. So we got a couple beats of them, you know, dancing to singing in the rain in his apartment chewing on ice cream. So we got a couple of beats out of them that are sort of out of character, but not as far as we want to go.

Alex Ferrari 35:12
Now with the thing about legal Eagles is in those kinds of films. I remember them so clearly where it's a romantic comedy, but there is act, there's an action and there's like thriller esque things and like there's danger. There's real danger. I like remember, like movies like steak out. And those kind of that kind of time period. There were a lot. They don't make these films anymore. They're not really made anymore. And they're so wonderful.

Jack Epps 35:40
Yeah, they are wonderful. I mean, they get made. You can make a thriller like that right now. You can come up with a good idea. You throw it but but romantic comedies with Gemini call them charming chase movies, right? We were really influenced by North by Northwest in the films of Alfred Hitchcock. Howard Hawks. Started. Yeah, Preston Sturges. And then these sort of big romantic comedies were something that we did well, but no, they don't make those anymore. And they sort of fell out of fashion. You

Alex Ferrari 36:09
know, a lot of it has

Jack Epps 36:10
to do with the appetite, comedy, and how that came in and changed the whole comic tone. And it just, they became dated, in a sense, I think that's why they've ended up on lifetime and you don't see those movies anymore. It's just it's, it's sort of comedy changes a lot. And in comedy, and and so those movies just sort of went away. I mean, you can still do the biggest action movies like that you should do them in action, and create that the fun. I mean, I think that's what's Tom's done. Mission Impossible is created that sense of that. But those are

Alex Ferrari 36:41
those, but those are mostly action with some humor, as opposed to romantic comedy with some, some really thriller esque elements and real danger elements. But it is a romantic comedy. But yeah, action films with humor. I mean, that goes. Yeah, even Beverly Hills Cop, you can argue is it's more of a comedy than it is an action film, but it's pretty even keel as far as thriller and comedy. It goes. Without question. Now, when you when you start working on a script, do you outline?

Jack Epps 37:16
Well, you know, the greatest, the greatest piece of advice I'd gotten from a writer, I was doing an internship on a movie called hearts of the West with Jeff Bridges. And the writer was really great. I Tony, Bill gave me the job. I had six months, three months of pre production, three months of production, which really showed me what a movie is not not a screenplay. But here's what movies are. And Rob Thompson gave me a piece of advice. I was talking about how you know how he does scripts and all this stuff. And he said, I use the card method. I said, What? Yeah, I use index cards, I break each scene into an index card. And, and that was like a light bulb went in, on my my head and changed my life. Because from that moment on, I've been using index cards. So I, I beat out a story, not an outline, because an outline to me. I want I don't start on page one, I don't start the first scene, I start with scenes I like to see. So what's what is the scene I like to see. And then I'm going to look at that scene, it might be a middle scene might be the ending scene. And so I don't work in any linear map method, I basically start to visualize how I see the movie and start to fill in the pieces. And for me, that allows and I also have to see my movie, if I'm doing an outline, it's I'm looking at one page, what's on page four, or five. So by laying it out in a big table, and I married the right woman, she allowed me to have the dining room table for 20 years filled with guards made the small table. And basically I'd have I movies about 55 cards, something like that. But I go through literally hundreds of them trying to figure out the movie, and I replay them. And I use colored cards to code relationships. So the main character is the white card, and then different colored cards for the relationships to show. So I can track my relationships and subplots through the movie. But I'm able then to read them in columns and see my movie in one glance, I can sit down and I can so before I work on a scene, I can get the beats the character development, and I got a hole here, I can work on the hole and fix the whole. And I also can change cards around it will. Because there's you know, it takes a couple seconds to write a new card. There's there's no like resistance to making change. Right. And when I feel I'm ready, I've got it, then I've got something to write.

Alex Ferrari 39:26
Now do you do you start with the scenes or plot? Or do you start with the character first? Good question.

Jack Epps 39:32
The biggest two things I'm looking for is one, What's the story? What's this about? What's the movie? What's the essence of it? And two, I'm always looking for where's the conflict in the story? Because I learned early on you write the conflict. I don't have the conflict. I've got nothing to write. So and then I'm looking for who lives in this world. Who is a person? What is their story? What do they want? What are they trying to achieve? What's what I'm looking for and what are they pushing against? What's antagonistic force, what's the opposition? So I'm trying to find whose story it is. I'm looking for major relationships. So I'm looking to build all these things and understand it before I start going to cards. So I have to pretty much know whose movie it is, and what I'm trying to tell. And, and that's something that I work out well in advance of beginning to plot the movie. Now, pretty much no, we story, it is.

Alex Ferrari 40:24
Gotcha, gotcha. Now, another film that you did in that time period, which I literally just watched with my daughters, who are young, Turner and hooch. And I, I was already up sorry. I always

Jack Epps 40:39
apologize because I held back from showing to my kids until they were like 12 and 13. So to break their hearts,

Alex Ferrari 40:46
it was like, so we watched it. And that was the other thing too. And like, by the way, spoiler alert, something happens at the end. But But the thing is, but the thing about that is that they were concerned about the ending when it was happening, because they were just like, Oh my God, oh, my God is he is he Yeah, but the way you were able to just bring in that light at the end with the puppy is, was absolutely brilliant, cuz I hadn't seen it since my video store days, I really hadn't watched in a long time. You know, like, sat down and watched it all the way through. And my wife and I both were just looking at like, there's so much and Tom Hanks in the 80s was just so brilliant and that huge. Oh my god, that dog was remarkable. How did turn nerd who show up? Because I know Tom. Tom loves to make jokes about these a guy did the dog movie. I don't know why did the dog but he always jokes about it in interviews. All the time. He did say is when he accepted his Academy Award for Philadelphia. Yeah, that's right. Better accurate. Exactly.

Jack Epps 41:48
I know. I know. Well, it was it was once again, we were working with Disney and Katzenberg, these things go into production. And they literally didn't have things for Tom to play, Tom, you know, because what we what we became known as the guys to come in and bring character to it. Bring story. We're, we're really good. We're good at fixing things. Like I can read the script and say, Okay, I like this. But this, here's what it needs to make it a movie. And so that was they had the dog but we just double down on the world's messiest dog, and we double down on Tom being the world's cleanest guy, and letting that sort of OCD character, sort of, you know, be a problem for him and creating a love story and creating a relationship in there. So

Alex Ferrari 42:28
conflict and conflict was in there just from the beginning.

Jack Epps 42:32
Right? Absolutely. And, and also, and making you fall in love with hooches. Just this grisly, the worst thing that could happen to the character is the best thing that happened to the character. And was so much fun about that project is a Tom was involved in development. So I would meet with the director and Tom would be there. And he'd be thrown out lines up, you're writing all these lines down? Thank you. No doubt, you know. And the thing about Tom Hanks, he is who you think he is. He's a remarkable guy. And great to work with generous as can be. And it was just such a pleasure to have somebody like that in a development meeting, just just helping develop the character because he and his concern was his relationship with OCE, he wanted to make sure that relationship was solid, because that's the core of the movie. And we worked on that.

Alex Ferrari 43:16
Now the one that one thing I really think is a learning moment here in the in the conversation is conflict, and how perfectly you know, Turner and hooch the conflict was self evident. There's no working for the conflict, like you just put two forces on complete opposite sides of the spectrum. And you just throw them together in a room and it writes itself almost because of that. And I think that is something that screenwriters writing screenplays now have written their stories. I've read so many screenplays, and you know, you know, in doing coverage and things like that, where the conflict is almost forced, like, it's like, I don't buy that, like, oh, that there's no motivation there. You know, like, the bad guy has this motivation. And the good guy has this motivation. It's like really like, convoluted. But the core of conflict from just something as simple as Turner and hooch. It's built in. And I think as you if you're writing a story, having two characters who are just completely on two opposite sides of the spectrum, without any major details, but it's it's very basic, I'm clean, you're dirty. Oh, my God, we've got to live together. It's the odd couple with a dog and a guy is actually

Jack Epps 44:30
do we agree with that? Oh, absolutely. And it's one thing I learned early in, you know, figuring out how to write and what what screenplays are about, is using relationships to produce conflict. And I'm a big believer in having multiple layers of conflict. I call them opposition forces. I want to make sure that my characters have a lot of opposition. And no matter where they turn throughout the story, there's a point of opposition there. And there are different degrees. It's not like it has to be here. Everything's huge. It doesn't matter the main character is going on a journey. And the journey is fraught with challenges of different degrees. And what that character is is trying to do is get what they want. But ultimately what they need at the end and in the process trying to get what they want, they bump into opposition characters and opposition situations, which which helps define the character because we see who is this character? Who is this person? Why do we root for them? What do we want? Are they you know, what's their growth arc through the story, and by using plot and relationship to help tell the story and create conflict? It it allows me to explore the character from from multiple points of view, and allows the character to express themselves to different people in different ways depending upon their relationship. And a lot and then I'm a big believer in in you don't want to rely on plot all the time. It's just plot. Because plot I say his curiosity Oh, what's going to happen? But emotion is character. And character is about relationships. It's not Nope, no character exists by themselves. I mean, you know, in Castaway, they had to create Wilson, because he needed somebody to relate to so what does he do? He creates this character Wilson, who I don't know about you, but when Wilson falls off, oh my god.

Alex Ferrari 46:13
Oh my god, volleyball. Oh my god, it's a volleyball but because we use emotion to it. I'm gonna Wilson though. You're like I'm Why am I crying for a damn volleyball? Like, what? If that's the brilliance of Tom Hanks. That's the brilliance of Bob Zemeckis. It's just the built brilliance of all of that. I mean, that. I mean, how he did not win the Oscar for that before. She's It's great. It's, it's remarkable. And I have to also ask you another great 90s film that you made Anaconda. I mean, where did that come from? The giant snake movie. It's like, it's pretty sharp, NATO. And it's not nearly as bad, by the way. So please, I'm not I'm not comparing them like nothing. But the big one, there's so much fun. There's so much fun, fun. But Anaconda. I remember when it showed up. And we're like, well, this is genius. I mean, this is like, why hasn't? Why hasn't there been a giant snake?

Jack Epps 47:08
Where did that come from? You know, it was once again, the agents call and said, by the way, you know, Sony's looking for rewriting this. They said, Yeah, right, whatever, you know, so we just sort of dropped in our laps. And it was a very interesting, it was very different than any other film we've done. One is there, all the CGI was already being done. So the graphics were already being worked on. So we could not change the basic graphic attacks of the snake. But the story from our point of view didn't work, the characters didn't work. There was no antagonists in the movie. And so our job was to basically rethink the story of the characters. So we came on board and recreated, who the characters were all new story of why they were going up to the Amazon, what was happening, all the relationships and people, we created all of that material, and had to weave it around all the CGI effects.

Alex Ferrari 48:02
Yeah, that's because the attacks were already that's when you have your cards up on the board. Like, yeah,

Jack Epps 48:06
these are the 10 we got to we got to navigate this. We got to make those things happen. So we had to create new characters, and and new relationships and new problems and different characters being caught by this, obviously, because that's not a problem because it hadn't been cast yet. And so that was sort of a fun thing to do. And it's just sort of fun to you know, to kill people.

Alex Ferrari 48:31
Crazy is our way I read this. Yeah, it's Yeah, there's, there's a bit of humor in it, but it is definitely not your typical, you know, as far as your filmography is concerned, it's definitely not secret of my success.

Jack Epps 48:42
It is Yeah, but I'll tell you it gets from residuals, I can see how many people watch it and it's still one of the most watched movies. Oh, yeah. And so it was actually during the pandemic, it was the top 10 of Netflix for one week. I was going through my list. down Oh, what's the top 10 ago? What anacondas number nine for the week? Okay,

Alex Ferrari 49:00
sounds like 23 years old. How is that?

Jack Epps 49:04
Well, it's cast I didn't have anything with casting the casting was marktable

Alex Ferrari 49:08
Oh, yeah, Ice Cube.

Jack Epps 49:11
Ice cube I got to meet Ice Cube years later and I said by the way, I'm the guy who stuck you in that swamp with the camera. He goes oh man, he did that.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
He did okay. He did. He did okay. He did well, Yes, he did. He did fine. Now one thing you said a lot of that you did a lot of rewriting and you worked on you know massive hits like Sister Act and diehard three and now that I know that you had a hand and diehard three. It makes sense because there's a lot of my two favorite diehards is diehard one and diehard three with four coming up and then two's the last one and I don't even consider any of the other ones. But three was such a wonderful buddy and talk about conflict. I mean, Sam Jackson and john McLaren and Bruce on that was great. How do you approach rewriting a script? Because you've done it so often in your life, and you have also have a book, called screenwriting is rewriting. So I'm sure you have a couple things to say about that.

Jack Epps 50:11
Well, you know, rewriting is the key every writer is gonna tell you that in screenwriting, is rewriting, that's where the title came from. Because you have to be willing to dive in, you've got to be willing to take notes. And you know, we become very precious with our material. We don't want to, we don't want to, you know, make changes. But when you're a professional writer, and the studio tells you, here's what we want, you can't you can argue and get thrown off the movie, that's not going to help you. Or you can stay there and try to protect the movie. And that's, that's what basically my approach is, let me work with not everybody's an idiot. Let me work with the best I can let me work with their ideas. And the key is trying to figure out not just the specific notes, but what's what are the notes saying in general, and trying to work on the bigger note, which is the response you're getting from from people. We always were pretty lucky that the notes we got, were, were on the one. We're never huge. The biggest note we ever got was john Landis. And we did the first draft of Dick Tracy, we didn't put jr into the movie. And his first note was Where's Jr. Tracy? We went, Oh, yeah, right. Okay, we got Jr, Tracy, in which we had to actually start all over again, because that's the core relationship of the movie. So suddenly, we can't just what you can't do and rewriting and just plug things in, you have to realize that there's a cause and effect of everything in the screenplay. So if you put something in this scene, it's going to relate to scenes later. And part of that is realizing the way the puzzle fits together and the way that everything sort of works. So we're always approaching, I'm always approaching rewriting, as, you know, while I'm trying to figure out what the assignment is, to figuring out what the notes are, three, getting a game plan, I'm going to address this in a certain way, I'm just not going to have at it. As a professional writer, I'm trying to save every bit of work I can. So I don't want to rewrite the whole script, a lot of people throw the baby out, and they start all over again. No, I'm gonna try to preserve everything I can, and try to weave it in the new elements into this existing story if I can, but also, I've had words changed all the time. So I'm not precious, super precious on things. I'm only precious on things that I know the story has to have. So what's the heartbeat of this story? What's the core emotional moment of this movie about? How does the audience relate to this movie, I'm not going to give that up. Because that does get damaged the story. So rewriting is about figuring out what's the game plan and then going at it. And my approach is to do a series of passes, not to try to do everything at once I like to do character. First, let's make sure we get this character's story really well told we know who this character is. I like to know what the theme is and the thematic balance, I want to make sure that I understand the plot elements are not only telling a good story, but they're helping reveal the character. And this is really important. Plot reveals character, how a character responds to the plot. Problem is what tells us a lot about the character. And so using my storytelling techniques to tell a story about a life in crisis is what I like to say movies are about lives in crisis. So is my character in crisis is the crisis substantial is enough to motor whole movie.

Alex Ferrari 53:31
Right, exactly. And well, let me ask you a question that when you're when you're working on projects, like SR act and Die Hard three, I know a lot of a lot of screenwriters don't understand why some people get credit. And while others don't, you know, Lee, you know, technically on their name on it, how does that work? And can you explain a little how the dg that the BGA kind of, you know, police's, that situation?

Jack Epps 53:55
Sure. Well, the w. j was founded basically, for to to award credits, that's what went on strike for because in the 30s, you know, the studios would give credit to the brother in law and whoever it was, and so writers had no say in how they were credited. And that's what the original one of the original strikes was four. So the DGA w j handles all of the credit determination. There's a, a anonymous arbitration panel that is convened, and they basically read the materials and there's rules that the guild is laid down, and how credit is determined. Whether it's story credit, a screenplay credit written by credit, the different layers of different different credit and depending upon the work that you've done on the script depends upon what credit you deserve

Alex Ferrari 54:42
so so that all right so that makes perfect sense because obviously, Sister Act had and diehard three both have a lot of your touches. I can sense the spirit is there.

Jack Epps 54:53
Yeah, they definitely do and sister acts as sort of a sore point with me because we were advised not to see credit because the movie was disaster on the set. And, and I always felt bad about that because I really liked the script. And so then of course, we went to Well, no, but we went to the premiere and I went like well that was unfortunate because it there's a lot on Gemini in that movie. And we've we feel a kinship to it. But you know, that's when they got away. So we're glad that we could basically put so much into it

Alex Ferrari 55:23
was it was it was there? I didn't I never heard that. I mean, I think I might have heard something in regards to the being a disaster on set. And in nobody Well, I knew no one was expecting substract to be a monster hit.

Jack Epps 55:36
Right. And then from the first I was sitting the premiere for the first note, I went ahead. And it was it was not written for Whoopi Whoopi Goldberg. Originally, she was at Les cast.

Alex Ferrari 55:46
Who was he worked for?

Jack Epps 55:48
I'm trying to think of the actress. Broadway actress. I can't think of right now. Okay. Well, she did. She did other movies. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I can look it up.

Alex Ferrari 56:03
Because now I'm fascinated because I cannot see Sister Act with anybody else other thanWhoopi Goldberg.

Jack Epps 56:07
No, no, she was the perfect cast. Absolutely. She was a perfect cast. Beth Midler no that that would have been an interesting Sister Act, though. It wouldn't have been the same by any stretch.

No,

Alex Ferrari 56:20
but it would have been an interesting.

Jack Epps 56:22
Yeah, those who bet Midler and she didn't want to do what she said about two rows in front of me at the premiere. And I could tell that she slouched I think she even knew Oh, I you know, but what he was the perfect cast? Yeah, I think I think we bet I think she was doing a good job. She's a talented actress, it would have been funny, but what the elevated that movie and made into what it was, what it is. And I think that was a brilliant casting that made it as a standout film and still is.

Alex Ferrari 56:46
And that where can people find your book screenwriting is, is rewriting.

Jack Epps 56:51
It's on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 56:52
It's on Amazon. And you wrote and you run it basically, because you want to help screenwriters and wanted to kind of help them in that kind of process. Because rewriting it's hard, especially when you're not a professional writer, and you're like, become precious, and like, I can't do this word. And I know Stephen King's, like just kill your babies.

Jack Epps 57:09
Well, it is you have to let go and letting go is really hard. And and also how to approach it is hard because people get overwhelmed by notes, they get overwhelmed. They don't want to do it. They tend to take it personally, they tend to feel they've lost. You know, part of things about being a writer is the creative, creative people we have a lot of insecurities, we there's a lot of imposter syndrome. And so now you're rewriting Oh, they found me out. And all this sort of stuff. And, and it's important for writers to know you're not alone. All writers virtually feel that. And that what you have to realize it's a process and that scripts don't get, you know, oh, I've written something, it's brilliant. Well, maybe there's some brilliance in there. But right now you got to get to work and make it into a movie. And be willing to let go of your darlings. And and realize that notes and feedback would help you to write a better script. But my book is about how to approach it. How do you approach a rewrite, and it's not easy. And I tell you that you get 100 screenwriters in a room together, they all do it differently. So there's no one way to do it. This, this book presents my way, which is really about organizing, I believe that you organize a rewrite, and prepare for a rewrite. If you organize it, then all the sort of the right call the circle confusion of these notes, what should I do? Where's the answer, and I'm doing it, you're gonna find me out. If you start to put it on paper and you start to organize it into categories, character, plot, theme, scene structure, you know, just relationships, if you start to break those notes down and then addressed, the notes that you're going to get most important for you. Oh, okay. These are the ones that start first to lay this thing out. It will get better over time, if you willing to give yourself time, which it's, it's, you know, it's the process, not the product. And that's where we're young writers haven't have they want the product. And I can tell you that what was what the advantage of Gemini having seven unproduced screenplays is it became the process. We didn't believe there was a product.

Alex Ferrari 59:13
Right? You just apparently, our career is just going to be writing stuff that never gets made.

Jack Epps 59:17
And there are guys who have, as you said, have earned a good living and never gotten a single thing made

Alex Ferrari 59:21
right. But are super talented writers. Absolutely talented. And

Jack Epps 59:25
there's no good reason that and my favorite script is never got produced. And he just Well, there it goes. That's just how it happened. Yeah, got close, got close and never got got done.

Alex Ferrari 59:35
I've read I've read script by by scripts by screenwriters that I'm like, this is asked him to shoot a master like this. This is amazing. This is remarkable. And there's tons of those scripts scattered on shelves in Hollywood from decades and decades. I remember when they went back and got the body guard and Unforgiven out of the archives and they brought it back out and look it turned into two hit. There's always these two. So it's It's about not only the talent, and the skill, but lack of being at the right place at the right time. There is a lot of luck, but I also think it's staying with it. Right?

Jack Epps 1:00:11
just you know, Damien chazelle said he had he had no the plan, you know, there's only a plan. And that's it. If you're in for it, you're in for it. Which means that you've got to be willing to dive in, do the hard work that has to be done. I also any writer listening to this, find yourself a writers group. Don't be out there. There's no matter where you are, what city you're in, there are people doing what you're, what you're doing, find them get together, give each other feedback, your writing support group, it helps, it helps to get feedback. Secondly, you need people just to help keep you in the game. And realize that you will get stronger, the more you stay at it. And if you want to become a better writer, learn to be a rewriter because that's where you get stronger. because it teaches you how to be a better writer, because what you find out is I don't want to rewrite. So I'm gonna make sure I have all this shit down right from the beginning, so that I don't have to do this next time. So I'm gonna make sure my characters have a really good story. They have a really good strong one. I'm gonna make sure that I have great opposition in my story that I understand, you know, what is what is driving this movie and what the emotional stake is for the reader in the audience. I mean, those things you've got to have.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
Now I'm gonna ask a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Jack Epps 1:01:30
Chinatown. Robert Towne who I basically interviewed my book, which was great talking about his rewriting process, and I think it really was because everybody's different and but Robert, it's it he's really opens up and he's honest guy. It's, it's really amazing. I think that's a great script. I'm not on old script, but I love it is the apartment.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:56
Yes. Come up a couple times here. Yeah.

Jack Epps 1:01:58
And I say that because to me, that script had a huge influence and Gemini because the character development, the storytelling, the emotion of it, Billy Wilder and Aiello, diamonds are amazing. Just amazing screenwriters. And I, it's always hard to say what is that other one? I'll tell you what's a good one to read? Okay, read go look for the first draft of goodwill honey. Not not the one that got produced? Yeah, go read the first draft, or the first draft of Back to the Future. Because what you see there are two scripts that they don't work too well. They got some real problems, especially back to future. And then you see what they ended up doing through a series of rewrites and needs. It teaches you that that those guys you know they didn't hit the ball on the park on their first swing. You know, they barely got the first base and and it's it's I think it's important is read scripts. That didn't work. But the movies did because it shows you Okay, they really work this they took the idea and and built it out. And they see what works. Oh, I see why this movie works. Now of course, yeah. How could Why were they? It seems obviously to have those elements, but they weren't there. And that it also gives us the back the future out, you know, the the ending takes place. They had to get to a nuclear power plant to power the car back to get back to the future. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's this whole big thing to go through this nuke, there was no Clock Tower. But But universal said, Guys, we got the funds for this. We can't do this. You got to do we got to do it on this on the lot. So they looked at the clock tower, and they said, Alright, well, we'll have like to hit the clock tower. You can imagine the movie without it. I know my body wasn't there. And they basically, you know, they just ate just, well, okay, here's how we made it work.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:50
And it gives us hope. When you read when you read scripts like that gives us hope as screenwriters and filmmakers alike. Look, they look like geniuses. And they are in many ways, but they don't not everyone hits it out. Like no one comes out of the womb, and writes the great American novel or the great American screenplay. It takes work, and even the best ones. I remember Casa Blanca, they were writing it on the on the SAT Writing on this is absolutely one of the best screenplays ever written. And it's like they were just trying to figure it out. You know, what looks like genius to us. was some some screenwriters in there going, I don't know how we're gonna get to next.

Jack Epps 1:04:26
You know, I asked Robert Towne. I said, Does it ever get easier? And he said, f No. Heat, to me is one of the great screenwriters of all time said, Robert, you've written all these great things is never easy. You know, it's so I mean, and that's a truth. It is a hard thing to do. But the most important thing is, is that when you're telling a story, you you're passionate about your characters that that have a story to life going on. It's a crisis at the heart of your movie and or your TV show. Why do we care? What's our emotional state? What does the audience care about? Why is it important for this character to basically achieve their need at the end of the movie, what it is emotionally that they need not only just the physical thing that happens, but what does it mean to them emotionally to do this?

Alex Ferrari 1:05:09
Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Jack Epps 1:05:15
I would say that don't be frustrated, it's going to take time that what you need to do is to read a lot of scripts, see how they work. Make sure you have a support group writers group so that you know you're getting feedback as you're going along. know when your script is ready. That's a question I get a lot is when do you know your script is ready? You know, because there's a thing of, I don't wanna send it out, I don't want to send it out. I don't want to send it out. Eventually, you have to let it go. Which means that you are you telling your story as best as you can? Or the feedback you're getting from people and you do need to get feedback? Is it you know, is it not like to the heart of the story, and then send it out, take the bumps, whatever happens and then start another one? You have to continue? It's not it's not I've seen so many people I have this one idea my one idea no. My pitching story is so I go you know you're trying to go pitch ideas right to go so I got the pitch I want to sell. I walk in there I gets my you know, my eight minute pitch. I've got my song and dance routine. I'm doing the whole thing and they go What else you got? Alright, now I got my three minute pitch. Alright, here's this one. I really like this one. They go Alright, what else you got? I get my thumbnail is 20 seconds ago. I love that one. I mean, so you just don't know what is going to hit you don't know what's going to strike the chord. Right But if you write from your heart and you write pick from your passion that will come through as a writer it and it's got to be a good read. This is a reading process. It's got to be a good read. And again Damien chazelle is listening to an interview he had on on fresh air. And Robin I think it's Robin gross isn't said Damien. You did all these sort of horror movies and all these rewrites. What did you learn from that? He said, I learned how to make them turn to the next page. Is that me? I? I got chills because I think he's a wall character. And no, he learned how to hold their attention and make them read to the end. And I thought that's just brilliant and simple and honest.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:20
That's amazing. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Jack Epps 1:07:28
I think understanding character understanding what character was and I had a tough I had a here's a here's a story how I learned that meaning what how to write character, and what true character was. This the Andy and I had sold a Kodak and we pitched the idea about a cop who shoots his partner. And we want to get the script screenplays. We sold the idea for it. Right? Okay, they bought the idea. So we kept going and pitching to the showrunner. Okay, here's what the show is he goes now I don't like that we can't came back and came back. We never got the script. We didn't get it. We watched Kojak I watched the hired somebody watch the episode. And it blew me over like a like a bolt. Okay, we were pitching plot. This veteran writer wrote story of a character. And the whole episode was about this character, and about his life and about his wife who was having a drug habit. And she was chained to a bed. And he was out there and he kills a part and his whole life is falling apart. And all we were doing was doing people chasing running around shooting. It's like, no, the emotional core. That's what character is. And that taught me that I needed to center my stories to have stories about people and lives that we related.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:37
Yeah, and I think and I've said this many times on the show before is that you remember character you remember Indiana Jones, you remember James Bond, you might not remember all the details of the plots of those films, but you definitely remember those characters. And and that's, that's what we're not emotionally attached to plot plot is just a vehicle, in my opinion. You're attached to the you're emotionally attached to character, what happens to them? If they're going to make it? If they're not going to make it, they're gonna find love, they're not going to find love, are they going to beat the bad guy? Or are they going to be Are they the bad guy, whatever that is. That's what you are attached to. But you still have to have a good plot. Again, it's a vehicle. It's a vehicle. It's

Jack Epps 1:09:15
a vehicle because it's what it's what pulls us through it. But you know, when you have to have isolated, you know, cool shit happens. You have to set pieces. Well, that's sort of it. You know, I'm good at set pieces. I love writing set pieces. They're fun to write, I think is one of the joys of writing action movies is creating thinking of big set pieces. And it's hard to think they're really harder to write than people would think of, because it's all been done. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:37
it was a lot easier in the 50s 60s to come up with these kind of things. It's

Jack Epps 1:09:43
really hard to write something new and sell but but if there if we don't care about that person at the center of it, it doesn't matter what happens. I mean, it's not about the explosions, it's about the person in the explosions, and we're worried is he going to get out of the explosions and and at what price

Alex Ferrari 1:09:59
right i mean drastically. arc is about dinosaurs. But we're not emotionally attached to the dinosaurs were emotionally attached to the characters and running around in that park. It's Yeah, and I think sometimes I think some sometimes screenwriters get a little bit too uppity when it comes to plot. Like you were just saying with your when you were pitching Kojak.

Jack Epps 1:10:18
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's it. And he has a tendency to, well, it's funny because you actually have to pitch plot, it's very hard to pitch character, because character development you but you have to have it there and you tell it, and then he goes, Okay, here's the story, because I'm looking for what are the events, and then how this person is woven into the story. But it's, that's that's pitching, which is a whole different game in itself.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:39
I've had many episodes about pitching just on pitching alone. And it's, it's an art. It's an art form. It's an absolute art form. And last question, three of your favorite films of all time,

Jack Epps 1:10:51
our three favorite films of all time. Okay, well, we already mentioned one, which is the apartment because it just, I saw that was really young. I never could forgive Fred Astaire, no matter what made me Fred. You know, talking about Yeah, no. Okay, so and so I love that movie. Yeah. I like Chinatown for how it works. And how it weaves? Isn't it? Yeah, it just is one that is, you know, you it's got a great sense of place. In that, and I'll tell you a movie that really had a huge influence on Jim. I was the sting. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:26
that makes sense. I mean,

Jack Epps 1:11:28
yeah, it's because it totally kept you off guard off balance expectations. And the movie just it tricked you so many times. It was really, and David eswar. Juana wrote a wonderful script that basically I went to school on June but I we did we broke that script down every line every just the way it was done.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:48
And do you do you advise that to screenwriters to actually like take structure from other other screenplays and just maybe use it as inspiration to, because if it's been if it's been not storyline, but structure of like, this happens at this point, this happens at this point, it kind of start off, it's kind of like a roadmap a little bit. And it's going to probably change obviously, as you write it. But I've seen a lot of I mean, if you look at I've said this so many times, if you look at Fast and Furious, it's Point Break, it's Point Break with cars. I mean, that's exactly the same story.

Jack Epps 1:12:18
Yeah, no, I think the danger is to make copies, right. And the danger is, I'm gonna make a copy of something because I really liked a lot, doing a large to it, you can love it, and have a feeling and tone of it. But you got to tell your own story. And yes, you can learn how we structurally put this type of movie together what have successful movies, I mean, I like to break down and understand how movies work. And and you know, what the core of the storytelling is? So yeah, I mean, absolutely. You can go in I mean, every art is referenced from something else, but you want to make it yours. And yours is who that character is, what is the story? What's that emotional relationship going on? Because that then makes it yours. I'm not a big believer that this things have to happen on page 30. And page 40. And I'm a big, I don't believe in that. There are there we definitely have a three act structure and culture. So as a beginning, middle and end we'd have we definitely have coming out of a first act where a character is thrown into a situation. I believe that I've learned that a mid mid term midpoint plot turn is really good. If you have something happened in the middle, it makes your second act easier to write because as a writer, the hardest place to write is the end of the second act. That's that's really hard, you know, easy. First acts are easy. endings. endings are fairly easy. If you know if you set it up, well, you can add it. But that big middle is really where it's hard. So you got to keep that middle moving. And that's where that's where I use relationship to keep that middle moving.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:44
But jack, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to the tribe today and, and sharing your knowledge and experience in and your screenwriting journey with us today. So thank you so much, jack. I truly appreciate it, man.

Jack Epps 1:13:56
It's been fun. It's been fun chatting with they feel like we've been chatting for a long time. Like I've known you for a while. So

Alex Ferrari 1:14:02
thank you, my friend. pretty comfortable.

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BPS 128: Blood, Bullets, Screenwriting, and Octane with Joe Carnahan

November 14, 2021July 7, 2021 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

It’s been a hell of a year so far. I’ve been blessed to have had the honor of speaking to some amazing screenwriters and man today’s guest is high on that list. On the show, we have writer/director Joe Carnahan. Joe directed his first-feature-length film Blood, Guts, Bullets and Octane. which was screened at the 1998 Sundance Film Festival and won some acclaim.

In 2002, Joe directed the neo-noir crime film Narc starring Ray Liotta and Jason Patric. The film caught the eye of the biggest movie star in the world Tom Cruise, who jumped on as an executive producer. His involvement helped propel the film and Joe’s career. Narc went on to earn about 13 million dollars in the worldwide box office, and launch Joe’s career.

Narc: When the trial goes cold on a murder investigation of a policeman an undercover narcotics officer is lured back to the force to help solve the case.

Tom Cruise asked Joe to write and direct Mission Impossible III. The dream slowly became a nightmare as Joe was run through the Hollywood machine at the highest level. He left the project soon after.

As a response to his Hollywood experience, he wrote and directed the high octane, the insane masterpiece that is Smokin’ Aces, starring Ben Affleck, Ryan Reynolds, Ray Liotta, Andy Garcia, Chris Pine, Common, Jason Bateman, Wayne Newton. The film is about a Las Vegas performer-turned-snitch named Buddy Israel who decides to turn state’s evidence and testify against the mob, it seems that a whole lot of people would like to make sure he’s no longer breathing.

In 2010, Carnahan directed the action thriller The A-Team, a film adaptation of the hit television series from the 8os. It was a worldwide box office hit, becoming Joe’s highest-grossing film.

THE A-TEAM follows the exciting and daring exploits of Hannibal Smith and his colorful team of former Special Forces soldiers who were set up for a crime they did not commit. Going rogue, they utilize their unique talents and eccentricities to try and clear their names and find the true culprit.

Liam Neeson (Taken), Bradley Cooper (The Hangover), mixed martial arts champ Quinton Rampage Jackson, and District 9 sensation Sharlto Copley, is The A-Team. (read less) THE A-TEAM follows the exciting and daring exploits of Hannibal Smith and his colorful team of former Special Forces soldiers who were set up for a crime they did not commit.

Going rogue, they utilize their unique talents and eccentricities to try and clear their names and find the true culprit. Liam Neeson (Taken), Bradley Cooper (The Hangover), mixed martial arts champ Quinton Rampage Jackson, and District 9 sensation Sharlto Copley, is The A-Team.

Joe follows that up with the adrenaline-fueled, action-packed film, The Grey. Arguably one of my favorites in Joe’s filmography. It has some of the most intense and brutally realistic attack scenes ever filmed.

Liam Neeson (Schindler’s List, Taken) stars as the unlikely hero Ottway in this undeniably suspenseful and powerful survival adventure. After their plane crashes into the remote Alaskan wilderness, a roughneck group of oil drillers is forced to find a way back to civilization. As Ottway leads the injured survivors through the brutal snow and ice, they are relentlessly tracked by a vicious pack of rogue wolves that will do anything to defend their territory.

Joe’s latest adrenaline-fueled film is called Boss Level. starring Frank Grillo, Naomi Watts, Michell Yeoh, and Mel Gibson. Think Groundhog’s Day or Edge of Tomorrow meets Smokin’ Aces. It’s time loop chaos!

Trapped in a time loop that constantly repeats the day of his murder, former special forces agent Roy Pulver (Frank Grillo) uncovers clues about a secret government project that could unlock the mystery behind his untimely death. In a race against the clock, Pulver must hunt down Colonel Ventor (Mel Gibson), the powerful head of the government program, while outrunning skilled ruthless assassins determined to keep him from the truth in order to break out of the loop, save his ex-wife (Naomi Watts) and live once again for tomorrow.

Joe and I had a ball discussing his early career, working in and outside the studio machine, superhero films, meeting Hollyweird dirtbags, writing for other directors, the Colombian government, and much, much more.

Getting ready to take an adrenaline-fueled ride with Joe Carnahan.

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Episode Transcript

Alex Ferrari 2:22
Now guys, you are in for a major treat today. We have on the show writer director Joe Carnahan. Now, Joe bursted onto the scene in 1998 at the Sundance Film Festival where his debut $7,000 feature film, blood, guts, bullets and octane blew the audience's out of their seats. If you're familiar with Joe's other works, you will understand that his kinetic form of directing which is so unique to him, has been there since the very beginning with his first $7,000 short film. He followed that up with the film narc starring Ray Liotta and then blew everybody out of the water with smoking aces, which was such a big hit for universal that they greenlit a feature for it right away. And he followed those up with films like The a team, the gray stretch and his most recent boss level with Frank Grillo and Mel Gibson. And if that wasn't enough, he's not only written everything he's directed, but he also does a couple of screenplays on the side, like pride and glory deathwish and the most recent bad boys for life, which grossed almost half a billion dollars worldwide. Now, Joe and I had an absolute ball talking shop in this episode, our conversation ranges from what the realities of this business is his journeys with Tom Cruise and walking off of Mission Impossible three, how that affected him his career, what he's done in his career, meeting some unscrupulous people along the way. I know that's surprising to hear in Hollywood, and so so much more. So. I want you to sit back, relax, and get ready to go on a ride with Joe Carnahan.

I like to welcome the show Joe Carnahan, man How you doing Joe?

Joe Carnahan 4:29
I'm good Alex, how you doing?

Alex Ferrari 4:30
I'm good brother. I'm good man. Thank you so much for doing this man. I've I've been a fan of yours man for for a while, bro.

Joe Carnahan 4:36
Since since 74 years. So you know you got a lot of

Alex Ferrari 4:42
I mean, so when you worked with Orson How was that?

Joe Carnahan 4:46
Well, this is back. You know, Joe Kahn and I were close. And Jesus. So So I mean, you feel like a business that long. Did you know? No, dude, I

Alex Ferrari 4:57
feel you 110% as we were talking about We feel a lot of things more as we get.

Joe Carnahan 5:03
By the way, you could stand the treachery in this town and ages you anyway. It's like the president, you know? Right? Mama goes gray. Trump somehow just goes more orange. She wasn't great was a weird, you know,

Alex Ferrari 5:16
it's a weird thing. It's a weird thing.

Joe Carnahan 5:19
Lucky we're not, you know, broken down decrepit.

Alex Ferrari 5:22
So, um, I want to start you off, man, I want to ask you, why did you be Why did you want to become a director? What kind of got you started? In what what made you think of jumping into this ridiculous business?

Joe Carnahan 5:36
You know, what, I just wasn't suited, I think to do anything else. I mean, I don't think I was smart enough to be a stockbroker or school teacher or good looking enough to be a movie star or rock star. So it's just start going, Okay, what can I do, and I and I had a love of writing at a very young age, my mom gave me this very kind of, I think, very potent love of books. And I just took that up. And, and, and so I was, you know, 1314 I was when I was writing a lot as written short stories. And, you know, this is like, kind of, I shouldn't say pre computer because we were always playing like either Atari or in television or wherever. But we really, my mom made a really concerted effort to kind of push us into that. So you know, and I always love films and, and so I started when I was 18. I wrote my first screenplay, and it was garbage. But I had written a letter at the time, I think Shane Black had written lethal weapon. And I wrote him a letter as a kind of inspiring dude on a long shot of a moon shot chance he would ever respond. He did. He actually wrote me back, because I was doing, I was doing the tacky, hey, I'm gonna let me get a hold of your agent at UTA, whatever the hell it was, and not let me anyway. And he was, you know, he was kind enough to basically say, listen, send your script. No time permits, I'll I'll certainly read it. And it was just dogshit. It was a cool idea. But it was a dogshit script. And then, you know, and I just kept going, I just thought like, this is a war of attrition. And I wrote another one and another one and another one, another one. And I try to tell these kind of fledgling screenwriters if you think you're going to knock out of the park on the first one, the second one you're not, it's almost never happens, you know, you've got to teach yourself the craft, like anything else, you know, you want to be a great sprinter. You get into blocks, and you sprint every day, over and over and over again. And I thought to me, because I never thought I was that particularly good. I thought you make up in the margins with hustling. And that's so and I still think that way, do I still go? Anyway, I've always known about it, which is, he wants something done, you got to do it yourself. Because ultimately, your little one's going to care that much. So and do listen, I consider myself fortunate to still be doing it to be honest with you, brother. It's like it's it's a it is a brutal, ugly times. merciless. And it's also the greatest job in the world. Right. So you know, this dude, it's like, you know, when it's rewards, it's dynamite. You know? Oh, and it's

Alex Ferrari 7:49
the highs and the lows is it that the highs are the highs are highest of the highs, and the lows are just

Joe Carnahan 7:54
brutal, brutal. And I've experienced all those things and in great quantities. So you know, I just kept going man, and I got a job I got, I got fired. I got fired this place because I had to kind of piecemeal my college education together. So I didn't get my bachelor's. So I was almost 25 years old. So I remember I was working at this place, and I wouldn't help this guy shoot like basically softcore porn in the warehouse that he had at night. He had a video production services place and he wanted to use the strippers from this local strip club and shoot softcore porn that My name is I can't I can't do that. Nothing against a nothing against pornography. I'm a giant fan of long standing, but I'm talking about. I was like, No, and I thought it was kind of sleazy. And so he fired me on a Friday. And so I wouldn't roll over to the next pay period. That's what stand up guidance and he was and and I went home panicked. My my, my then wife was pregnant with our daughter who's now 25 years old. I was absolutely freaked out. And I remember this local TV station used to do their own 32nd trailers for movies. So I remember I wrote one for road warrior, aliens and Poltergeist I wrote three little little 32nd spa a purely doing on a lark cuz I was like, I didn't know what that what the hell's to do. I wasn't fit to do I wasn't going to go let me go get a teaching job or ta job or something. So I took them I didn't even know what the hell was called. I just called who does the call the station. Oh, that's our promotions department. The guy's name was Andy critten. And I took them down on Friday. I dropped them off. I drove back to my place my little shitty one bedroom place in Sacramento. I'm sitting there going, you know, what the hell am I gonna do? around seven o'clock the phone rings and it's Andy criminate. And he says, I read your stuff. Why don't you come down Monday I have. I have a promotions proof spot that's just come available. You can take the test with the job. And there I met my dear friend Kevin Hale, who right now is sitting about a half mile away cutting cop shop for me and cut boss level. So we've been friends that long. started a promotions department at this little crummy TV station in Sacramento but it was dynamite brother that ate me spot education. Every every form of production, um, and it was invaluable in that way. So that's really where I got where the jump was. Yeah me blood guts.

Alex Ferrari 10:10
Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get we're gonna get into blood guts in a second. I also worked in promos back in the day as an editor doing but not nearly as yet not nearly as cool as your stuff like Road Warrior stuff. I was doing Matlock and, like promos for Matlock and, and like, what was the big seven? Yeah, yeah. And Andy Griffith Andy Griffith Show stuff. Like that's what I did back in the day. Oh, yeah, dude, yeah. So

Joe Carnahan 10:40
yeah, if wewere brutal.

Alex Ferrari 10:42
Yeah. You got and I'd read hundreds, hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of them. Now I need to ask you, man Oh, bro. Yeah, I need to ask you. So can you tell me the story behind your script? karate writer? Oh,

Joe Carnahan 10:55
God. Okay, so there's so there's a guy I shouldn't be cruel. I don't want because name's Brian Martini. He's basically like, if there was a poor man's poor man's Chuck Norris, he's that poor man's Chuck Norris. Right. So he's like, he's like, you know, it's terrible to say, but it was these are really cheesy, you know, karate movies. And I had written this kind of what I thought was just really cool. I call it like, straight trigger some jerk off title, like in the, you know, early 90s that you did. And, and it was this, it was this love triangle between this criminal this kind of hardened killer killer, a cop and a psychotic psychologist, they all kind of were interrelated. I thought all this would be cool. And I want of selling it to him for like, $3,000 $2,000 the script, whatever the hell it was, which to me was a lot of dough. Right? And then I got very kind of, you know, uptight about what they were going to do with it. long and distinguished career being a fucking pain in the ass. And not not being able to just say, do you know which we'll get to brought where I finally said, I was gonna take the money guys knock yourselves out. But it was I don't believe they ever shot it. They did it. I think they called it omega cop. I

Alex Ferrari 12:09
think it's actually on the whole movies on YouTube. So you can watch the whole movie. It's called karate Raider. But it's called karate Raider. But within the the description is your movie. But but the but the title in in the movie is different than karate Raider. So I actually scan through it. I didn't I didn't sit and watch the entire thing because of his genius. No, it was it was it was actually it's actually on some shit literally just got put up like four days ago. I was like, What are the chances? I just look.

Unknown Speaker 12:46
Lucky me right, bro? While

Alex Ferrari 12:52
I was scanning through it. I'm like, well, man, we all got to start somewhere. We all got that. We all got that project.

Joe Carnahan 12:59
Yeah, I mean, dude, it feels like one of those worlds horrible relationships you ever like Yeah, she was gay. He was kind of nuts. And I like to talk about it. That's really what it was.

Alex Ferrari 13:07
But she tried to stab me the shower didn't really work. But she's article but a heart of gold. Heart of Gold.

Joe Carnahan 13:15
Okay, all right. Hey, sweet girl. Sweet Girl. Don't get me wrong. Sweet. Sweet.

Alex Ferrari 13:20
Sweet, sweet. All right.

Joe Carnahan 13:22
So she came through the vinyl with that machete, everything else was, you know, was great. She was gonna be the one she was gonna be the one she was. I'm sure she'll find something nice.

Alex Ferrari 13:34
I wanted to bring that because I always like I always like going deep back into into into filmmakers and cinematographers and screenwriters about early, early work, because that's what that's, that's where the meat of those stories are. Because, you know, we could talk about all the successes, but we and we will. But I always like I want filmmakers listening to understand that everybody starts somewhere everyone's got to eat to curl everyone's gonna get punched in the face all the time. So that's why that's why I bring it up. So

Joe Carnahan 14:01
do you know you listen, these are you know, these are the necessary kind of doldrums and and in kind of the you know, the BTRC tier DTS z tear things you have to do to get going and get your name out there and try to try to make a living at this. It's not easy, not easy. And again, you know, you and I came of age again, where you got you know, you think about you being in this business of being a poster for 20 years you've seen technology I mean, this all those more this and iTunes does more than I ever did I ever had access to a full blown production facility with a DVD and every other thing you know, with it with a flame and all these things. It's oh my god is so amazing. You know, your phone will do that stuff with filters and like it's crazy. So I always tell people there's no excuse for you to not make something you know, as you see extraordinary things made by the amateur filmmakers. It's like but again, I think the cream will still rise to the top you know, yeah, no question and, and, dude, you need you need wherever the hell you start out YouTube, Tik, Tok, Instagram, whatever you're doing. I got friends of mine that make these fantastic Instagram sure you know it's like but they're still out there trying to grind it out to get the quote unquote shot and and and they don't come easy and again a lot of times you just got to be willing to get you know your balls being like a birthday pin yada and and you know what a great line and and that and that is what it comes down to is is your your you know how resilient are you? How tough are you? And how much do you want to take getting smashed in the face time and time and time again because that's really what it's going to require and not take the shift personally and it's only now do that I don't I no longer take it personally and I'm no longer I'm a newer to kind of the treachery you're not gonna show anything new in terms of taking up you know, you know six inches of a nine inch steel temper blade between my spinal column I get it I mean, it's like okay, that didn't you know, there was money or something on the table and you decided to go that way so okay, not shocked

it became angry about it. Right and it's the the thing I always say shrapnel like you got shrapnel I've got shrapnel like you know it could be different shrapnel and that's it I promise you it is different shrapnel but I love that you're right.

Alex Ferrari 16:10
But it's great. You got you got shrapnel and and that's why like, you know you were talking to me early on that you want you want you saw that video that I did that that episode I did about you know the truth about independent filmmaking and, and and all and how, why they don't make money and things like that. And it's this just this raw kind of shrapnel is the best word I can use because it's it's, it's already now it's a war and you're going to get hit. And that's why what I what everything I do is because I want to help filmmakers avoid, not avoid but understand that the punches coming and how to you're gonna get hit, you're gonna get

Joe Carnahan 16:46
you can't do them a greater that's the greatest service you can do to filmmakers. Like if you think that you're going to run that gauntlet and not get knocked on your ass. And get that kind of ammonia taste in the back of your throat. You really get the chicken You know, you're gonna you're gonna taste if you are a man that bitter, coppery, it's coming. And I think too many people make this false arrangement slash agreement with themselves that Oh, yeah, but now me I'm going to call coast and I've certainly seen it. And then I've seen those same people dude, get dropped in the stratosphere and land on their head. And it's like, it's just gonna, you're not gonna be able to sit it out. I don't care how good you I don't care what kind of cloud you think you're cruising on, you're going to get knocked it and by the way, you should want that. And you should want it and it doesn't matter. It happens all the time. It's happened to me, it's happening multiple times. And that's again, how you shake it up and keep going. And the great thing is brothers, you know, you're like, you've been doing this as long as you do it because like you don't, we don't age like athletes. You know, we're not a blow rotator cuff away from like, that's it, you get better. I'm better at my job better my 50s and I was ever was in my 30s or 40s if ever and across the board better. So anybody that doesn't know Raymond Carver and publishes for sources who's 52 years old. So it's like you can become an almost prolific kind of American short story writers. It's like there's always room to and it's and it's age proof. It shouldn't mean I got to be this young upstart kid it's like I don't those experiences don't necessarily move me away the experiences of people that have lived life do so so yeah, man it's always it's never too late. And you can always prove and I love that about the cracked you know, apps absolutely,

Alex Ferrari 18:25
man. Now you you had your first feature was called bullets guts, blood and octane, which arguably was which was arguably the one of the best titles have come out of the 90s I have to say,

Joe Carnahan 18:40
Well, I hope so. Maybe not the best film economy so no, but no. Again, brother going back to this this is a this is a movie that I was in. We made for like seven grand. It was it was designed to totally to kickstart everything. I think unfortunately, we got caught in the massive spike wait the Tarantino it created and no one could do a crime genre film of any kind. Without the immediate supposition being What's there to stereotype as though that genre never existed prior to Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, so that always kind of rankled me because there's used cars Bob Zemeckis, and that is Glengarry Glen Ross has always kind of influenced or Leonard does all that shit. But watching it now is a much older guy. I think the writing is great. And it's funny, and it's goofy. And it's amateur, but it works. And it's like, it just never I never I never thought it got a fair shake up, Jake and i think i think i think i've had one of those careers do that think has always been and you know, you sit here and go well, I never got my do I never got my it's not about getting you do I just always think I was misunderstood. in certain ways. It took movies like The gray to go, oh my god, I guess the guy is serious of all you know, it's like, it's like, I just don't want to do the same shit. You know what I mean? It's like, and I think sometimes that because it's not, I'm not I've always said this. I'm not I don't want to make I'm not used to making movies. I don't give a shit they say anything about me 50 years you know it's like I want to make stuff I enjoy and stuff that you know that that for whatever that whatever it is but I'm certainly not curating a career you know I'm like I think about very much you know I came from you know lower middle class you know middle Michigan kind of and and you'd like you to be a pulling a paycheck doing this I mean, my mother says me Well, at least you know, I'm glad you got your your degree. It's like mom I think I'm okay I think I'm alright

Alex Ferrari 20:28
now you make this film and from what I understand you shot it on 16 and edited it on video so I'm assuming you edited on three quarter or did you do I did an M to the Panasonic m two which was the cheap

Joe Carnahan 20:42
or I know bro, I know bro You look like you just saw like like like oh you know like no photo

Alex Ferrari 20:47
because I I actually actually saw I actually did some research and is it true that you edited on the pinnacle? dv

Joe Carnahan 20:54
Oh brother I edited on it was the other fast the other? The pedicle fast it was the precursor to the avid, but I'll tell you this dude, to me to this day. That interface is still better than avance it just is. Because you could drag and drop you could do all this what you can on avid but to me and again i i'm doing i'm cutting right now with Kevin I've cut I've cut and every one of my films I've cut sequences or scenes because I cut my cut this movie blood guts I cut it all myself. So you know I still understand I love editing to me is like writing right? It's very it has that same kind of effect. But you know you it's never that was so the ease of use on that was so great. And so but it was I don't even know if they're still in business dude. It's like no, they're

Alex Ferrari 21:35
still making I think they are like one

Joe Carnahan 21:38
to one compression rates and dude was just no, bro. Listen, when you just think this is the way people are gonna see the movie. You're not not all fuck black make it black and white. I don't care. Because shit, you know, but it again, dude, the theory being creatively, that shit ceases to be shit. If it's moving fast enough. They're not gonna realize I made it for no money and performances, right? You know, a bunch of kids bah, bah, bah. So it was you just had this kind of devil may care attitude about the editorial. Then they go now back to film. Oh my god. So I had to go. Everything had to go back to be transferred. Then I had to have an IP that I've been in. And you know, I ended we had a negative cutter. And we had Oh my god, check. It was like, Oh my God. And this is back to photochemically. You had to this is how you had to color films. You didn't have the da Vinci you didn't have like, could go into like, like, what's your like? What the fuck? You know, it's like there's too much Thai investments too much magenta. You know, you do but you did it. You wouldn't screen reels. So it was a totally foreign but but yeah, I'm doing I'm glad I got the tail end of that. And it was great. Education that I wouldn't have had, like the last, you know, those were still cutting on cameras like okay, you know, but that's gone, bro. That's like, No, it's

Alex Ferrari 22:48
not.

Joe Carnahan 22:48
But I'm glad I experienced.

Alex Ferrari 22:49
Yeah, yeah. But yeah. And the other thing I heard from you is about that the story about blood guts Was that you? You actually used all the TV station you were working on all their gear and all their lights and anything you can grab without without their kind of permission or they weren't they frowned upon it.

Joe Carnahan 23:10
The guy I mentioned earlier, Andy criminate gave me permission. Then he took a job at Fox. And then it was one of those what ask for forgiveness and permission now because I'm not going to go back to the GM of the station. And then literally that Saturday is we're shooting the GM and station walks into the conference room where we all are, are sequestered shooting this scene and basically said, while somebody's making money on this, but he never shut me down. Elektra schinsky was a really lovely guy. And years later, dude, years later, I don't smoke in aces. Never. I was at this really kind of nice Mexican restaurant in Sacramento. And my kids were still up there. And I saw him and his family having dinner and I bought them all dinner. He had no idea what the hell was going on. He came over He's like, and he was so lovely. You know, but I'm like, I do that was a brilliant thing you did for me and you'd never you never like shut it down. You never kind of you could have and you didn't. So I was I was you know, I was I was you know dancing between raindrops dude. And on that particular thing, but Yeah, dude, it was all brother mtwo machines. Digital I would tell my then wife on a Friday I'll see you Monday morning and I are Monday night. And I would work through and bring change of clothes. I slept under the under the editing console on one inch stack wheels. I that's how I'd sleep and just cut to just just to get this goddamn thing done. So I thought if not now when? And if not now, never. You know what I mean? It's like it was one of those deals.

Alex Ferrari 24:33
And then you and then you so you do this film for it's at 878 $1,000. Right then you get into Sundance and the midnight screening, right? Yeah, yeah. So so you get into Sundance and I and I see the trailer which is so brilliant that trailer that you should that you edited for like for blood guts, like how did it How did it $8,000 movie get into Sundance and you just boop boop boop and I was like man,

Joe Carnahan 24:58
marketing dude, we did. Real emarketing Yeah. And by the way, do you know, like, like my buddy like Kevin Hale, like, look like he's smuggling heroin through the airport and we're selling kits and chips. I mean, it's crazy dude, we went way over the top. And he's little like kind of vignettes. But it was like, those kind of that vibe was what we needed to have happen. And it was, because we're just lucky to get anything, dude, it was like you brought that idea. That was the attribute, he was not nuts. So that in and of itself was just a gigantic victory for us and everything else. That was great. I didn't. I thought the first screening of the library Sundance was kind of a disaster. It was fine. But I thought the second screening, which was in God, where was that little area where like, it was the holiday. It was the holiday village cinema. I think that one was a bunch of snowboarders and they loved the movie, it was a very different crowd. It wasn't the kind of the, it wasn't the it was the film crowd. It was the 70s it was kind of like the guys just coming off the slopes and snowboard, they loved it. And so, but it was dude, it was the Sundance experience. It was like that was every at that time, brother. And I don't know if it's the same now because Sunday is a very different place. That was the that was the goal, man. That was the Sundance Film Festival was, was that was it. You know, you got there and you're on your way. My mother saw Robert Redford, a restaurant, she's like, Oh, I think maybe, you know, you can make something for this. I mean, it's like, yeah, you know, we'll see. You know, it's like, that's the that's the goal. That's the goal for the rest of my life. So yeah.

Alex Ferrari 26:22
And the funny thing is like, my dad still doesn't know what that I do. Like, I took him on set one day on us unexpected. Like I do make money. You obviously doing a well enough to own a home in Los Angeles. So whatever you're doing, keep doing it.

Joe Carnahan 26:38
I have a family of two girls are taking care of it. Yes, that's right. Right. Engaging in high end bank robbery. And right. So yeah, whatever you do, keep doing it.

Alex Ferrari 26:47
Yeah. Because that generation, like that generation goes, like, unless I

Joe Carnahan 26:51
know the better.

Alex Ferrari 26:53
It's so funny. It's so funny, because that generation is all about, like, if you don't work in a factory, if you don't like bust your ass for nine to five, it's not a job.

Joe Carnahan 27:02
It's not a job. Like what are you doing, you know, like, writing or standing, writing one? Well, that's it, write what

Alex Ferrari 27:09
I write. I don't get paid to write.

Joe Carnahan 27:12
It's great. He's got this great. Grill. He's got this great story because he and his dad sounded like the like the patio of his place in the Palisades. And he just needs his dad's music. You got this from acting? got this beautiful kind of sprawling pad in, in. In Palisades? It's like, it's like his dad. You got this? No, no, I've been knocking off seven levels. Yes. But Dude, it's a generational thing.

Alex Ferrari 27:42
It is it is. And I think the generation coming up behind us like our daughters. And, and and that, that they they are so aware of everything like they they know about, you know, being on online and they know about followers, and they know about building content, and they get there they are so much. They're just exposed to stuff that we weren't exposed to. So it's,

Joe Carnahan 28:05
I think that's the thing to start to slow that down. Because I'm so terrified that that overload is very real. Yeah, it's very scary. And it's and it's kind of it's, it's it's pervasive.

Alex Ferrari 28:18
No, I agree with you. I agree with you. 100%. And I try to do everything I can, but then they see what I do. And, you know, and they're just like, yeah, they just like, they Google. They googled me the other day. And they're like, Dad, right? Like, people know who you are. I'm like, Look, man, I am. In the grand scheme of the world. I am nobody. But But yeah, there's a few. Yeah, yeah, I'm not like, I'm not Obama, like I can't I could walk the street like everybody in the world knows who you are. Think about if you couldn't,

Joe Carnahan 28:51
that's always because I bought that habit. Friends of mine. I watched it happen to Chris Pine. I watched it happen to Bradley Cooper. I watched it It literally happened to them in real time where they couldn't be themselves anymore. And like, they had to deal with, with with, you know, with, you know, with being constantly bombarded and constantly inundated with requests for autographs, requests for pictures or having received the Dorchester having dinner with Bradley Cooper. Someone comes up says Can I get your picture? He says, Oh, honey, I'm just I'm right in the middle of trying to be cool. I'm right in the middle of a meal. She was wanting to be done. I just kind of posted up there. I'm like, see, I couldn't do it. I'll put the fucking fork in your hand. How about that? And then and then and then you know, it's like, Are you out of here?

Alex Ferrari 29:34
Get the fuck away. Have some respect. I know. I know. Dude. It's It's It's insane. But you're right.

Joe Carnahan 29:41
I've seen someone's you know, like, come on, man. You know, it's just ridiculous because it's Yeah, I don't I would know what to do. I would not I you know, I get recognized once a blue moon flips me out. Dude. It slips me out.

Alex Ferrari 29:52
Yeah. Yeah, when I was talking to Albert Albert, he was Albert Albert Hughes. I was talking to him. The other day on our show, and he was telling me He's like, dude, I was at Planet Fitness. And some dude walked up to me. He's like, Hey, man, I got a script. Like, he's on the treadmill. And he's like, and he's like, well, I'm in the middle of working. And he's like, Alright, and he waited. He's always done. And he just stood there next to me. And I'll say,

Joe Carnahan 30:24
Hey, I can't you know, you got to go to the agency. I can't. Because if I read one page, and somehow I put walks into, or I read your stew, I read your script off. It's like, okay, you know,

Alex Ferrari 30:34
it's it's, it's insane. And I get it, bro,

Joe Carnahan 30:36
I get the hustle, man, I do I get it. I get it. I get it.

Alex Ferrari 30:39
But there's such a right way to do it. But there's a right way to do it. Like, look, man, I literally got the word hustle on my shirt, my shirt and on my hat. My brand is about hustle. But I've been I've been yelling and screaming from the top of the mountain. Like, look, guys, there's a way to do this. And there's a way to approach people and there's a way to do that hustle and respect it. As opposed to like, calling somebody at their house or dropping off a package at their house burned broken. There's ways of doing it. And

Joe Carnahan 31:07
it's creepy. I like I don't want you to come in here. Like don't don't do that. It's like either. That's not for public consumption. Anyway, I don't want you to know what the fuck I let you know, come on, man. Like any more than you will want me to know where you live. It's like it's creepy, right? It's like so and I get it dude, listen, and part of me is always it's always it's always cut with this kind of sympathy of our I get it man. You know, it's like, you know, I it is it's broad. It's trying to get some but but the idea that I'm just going to jump right into your screenplay and change your life. It's like, I'll say how many scripts you will set per script, right? Another one? What are you waiting on? Don't don't don't sit around, you know, the coffee shop waiting for this one to take flight right another one and work and you got to work them, you know, you got to multitask these things, you got to keep them all, you know, keep all of them moving and shake in a different manner. You have to be you have to you have to I still have to everybody does you should I like that. I like that experience. And I'm used to it. You know what I mean? And it's comforting to me, as opposed to just having stuff kind of float in. And here you go. There you go.

Alex Ferrari 32:07
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. You know, so so your your next film was a bit of an upgrade from the $1,000 which was gnarrk. How, how did how, because there's a I remember, there's just a lot of stuff swirling around. Now I remember when Mark came out. And because it was that during that time, we were still like it was on the tail end of the whole Sundance kind of craze which was once Aaron Tino and Rodriguez and Smith and Linkletter and spike and Singleton all these guys were coming up. So you were on the tail end of that like in 98 with octane and then mark came out so exploded onto the scene. I remember people were like talking about it left and right, like, Oh my god, this is like Revelation, this is the next big thing. And I will get to that part. But man, I heard other stories about like the making of it, and the money behind it and a lot of craziness is can you go into that a little bit? until it was Listen, it was one of those It was one of the and this is the way that a lot of these independent films are financed, they're very Listen, there's anytime there's any time there's millions of dollars, you're gonna have people in there that want to siphon off a certain amount of that and and and, and it's like the scam and a casino. You know, it just is and if you say if you think that you're dealing with you know, these honorable sorts across the board, you're dead wrong, you

Joe Carnahan 33:37
know, you're not you know, you deal oftentimes and one of the guys on there was like literally gone to prison. He and he was I think he was he may have been like, I think at one point he was like trying to reach out to me from like, you know, like the baker Denver row cellblock, C whatever the hell it was. It was like, wait, what this guy's so it was very, it was and I remember, you know, they were they would we'd say to the, you know, the it's like, Hey, man, we didn't get the wire. It's like, Oh, you know? Okay, look, we'll send it. We just got to find the number. And then they and then they and then they call us back. Oh, we can't remember which bank we made the wire with. I'm like guys, you're doing the adult version of my dog ate my homework. This shit isn't isn't funny. You know, we've got a crew we have to pay. And you know, we're in we're in Toronto, and like the dead of winter. And I remember walking onto a set one day, this kind of really rundown little one bedroom apartment. And I remember I remember walked in, and there's the production manager and I turn the corner here and say, I don't know when you're going to get paid. Again. I don't know if you're ever gonna get paid again. And this is 7am you know, before we shot any you know, and I just listen, I just decided the best way to deal with the situation was just to take the bull by the horns. Listen, guys, listen. We're dealing with disreputable people and people that are kind of sleazy. And you have mortgages and you have you know, car payments, you have kids to feed. I can't tell you how to do that. If you don't have the money is not here. By the end of the day. You should walk. I would I think for whatever that was worth that galvanized them for a moment and they kind of they understood our, our plight and they hung in there. But do you know it was it was a movie that could have very easily kind of disappeared and just been this cool little, you know, but I remember going to the Eccles theatre, which is still the best screening I've ever had a movie and it just went through the roof. And I remember right after that they took myself and Ray and Jason Patrick up to the main street of Park City and put us on put us on cnn live was great, right and I thought okay, that was something happened. And, and then you know, kind of post that coming back Lionsgate Tom ortberg had made three films when I picked up blood guts. They, they it started this whole there's like, you know, the Bel Air screening circuit is basically a euphemism for rich people that have that have theaters in their homes. And so I started meeting all my heroes Dustin Hoffman, and remember like Justin has been everybody all these great, you know, and one night I'm having dinner with Ortenberg and Jason Patrick look up and Warren Beatty standing there, he just came down to like Bandera on Barrington and Wilshire just to hang out and talk about the movie and it was just this crazy and then you know, I get the call that you know, Tom Cruise has seen the film and he wants to meet you and and I go to cruise wagon I'll never forget to do and I'm in the conference room and I didn't realize that the main entrance had a little latch style lock and it was locked and suddenly the door just starts trembling trembling to like shake it up. And they just pulled open the lock flies off and there's Tom Cruise. And and and and we start talking he goes he was dating Penelope Cruz the time he goes Listen, she had a family member that had cheat sheet I knew she walked out of the movie she covered her eyes and left the film. And he goes I knew it was as good as I thought as good as I knew it was great. It was a great movie right there because she couldn't bear it and and then do it in you know listen he got that film a tremendous amount of time and attention and and really rescued it from being it could have just been this little $3 million indie that you know was cool and and disappeared and he really made it kind of bigger than the sum of its parts and for that I'll be always be grateful to him for doing that.

Alex Ferrari 37:09
You know Yeah, and that's not something that Tom does very often like he hasn't hasn't hasn't like Shepard a an indie or you know an independent or a very you know, much lower budget non studio film like the I don't remember. Hey, might have done a couple here there but I don't remember him doing that's not what he does.

Joe Carnahan 37:28
Yeah, no, he was really it was something else man, it was something else to kind of raw I don't think I was aware of how of how extraordinary that was, you know, for me to experience and, and only now is a much older guy but you dumb ass. You know? It's like a 31 year old jerk off key didn't really know what the fuck is going on. By the way, shut up. You know if I can time travel via Doc Brown and a fucking DeLorean I go back and slap the shit out of my mouth. Shut the fuck up. Not everybody needs to know what's on your mind, bro. Shut up and lose 25 pounds. That's why I say to myself.

Alex Ferrari 38:08
Because I'm feeling it now use you. You fat. Yeah,

Joe Carnahan 38:10
you know, he likes you shut the fuck up. You know? So? So So, uh, no, it was but it was it was remarkable. It was one of those like, just kind of amazing moments in time and and and you know, the movie came out and we did what it did it was I think it was it was obviously was successful in in his insofar as it was one of those movies that got listed Paramount put put a put Oscar money behind it and the campaign rated campaign for the screenplay campaign. You know, it was it was great. It was really something else, you know.

Alex Ferrari 38:42
So then from from that film, Tom hires you to do Mission Impossible three, which, which, which, in hindsight, and I'm just thinking is myself like if Kevin Fay he knocks on my door tomorrow, and says I want you Alex to direct the next Avengers. And here's 200 million. I would probably I would take the meeting. But you take you take, you take the meeting,

Joe Carnahan 39:10
but you're gonna get coffee. At least there's that but you're gonna get a cup of coffee,

Alex Ferrari 39:14
or a cup of coffee or a bottle of water, at least at the bottom of the water bottle tour. But But the point is, you know, I mean, at this age, I think we can really you know, this. I don't want to overextend myself. I haven't give me a $10 million movie give me a you jumped you jump. Yeah.

Joe Carnahan 39:31
Yeah, it was an I also think in my hubris, and I think listen to the script that Danny go right, I wrote I still think is a knockout. And I think there's elements of it that work their way into those later. Mission positive those being disavowed having to go to ground that was all stuff we covered in mp3. So So I think it was a good dude. My kind of naivete and my inexperience in in thinking that I could read Kind of Shepherd this in a way that I retain kind of the the our tours advantage which was never fucking going to happen right and not just put myself into a process that take the ride kid it's you're gonna make a lot of money You know? And I think they I think listen this is what you realize too I think now with these with these big franchises I think they don't i don't think they want filmmakers brothers so much I don't I think they want someone that's had kind of a ready hit and kind of an indie darling or whatever, and then they plug them into this kind of gigantic franchise, but it is a largely plug and play scenario. It's like, it's like, you know, my wife jumps horses, you know, equestrian, and you know, they have these million dollar skills and push button horses, you put anybody on that horse, and that horse is going to take them through a course and they're gonna look great, but that's not riding, you know what I mean? And kind of, it's a little bit the analogy I would think of now it's like, you're not, not that there's anything wrong with this film. I'm not saying I'm saying that process, man. is, is it's it's, it's preordained and it's predestined. And and you're gonna you're gonna have to understand that and I didn't, and I was a pain in the ass and and I thought that I was fighting the good fight. And I've always said told the story, I think Listen, I quit a week before they were gonna pry sack my ass You know, there I was out. And And listen, I do I have regrets about it. I don't do it. Because it was my process. And it was my journey is as stupid as that sounds. And it was something I had to experience on my own. And I had to live and die by that decision. So, you know, I thought my career was over. And it was one of those. This is one of those gut check moments in life. It's like, How good are you? Can you get yourself out of this? Are you gonna be able to make another movie? And so but it was but i don't i i have the greatest stories about that time. You know, these anecdotal mountains and that's what it's meant to be. And not I don't have an ounce of rancor. I don't have an ounce back then. I was a motherfucking. Brother. Listen, man, Tom gave my tiny little movie a gigantic birth man. He really did. And really helped me out a lot and really propelled my career in ways that I'm probably still not 100% cognizant of or aware of or appreciate. So, you know, you got to take that for what it's worth it and, and it was your right going going for $3 million movies $180 million movie, probably not the most astute career move. You know what I mean? Like? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 42:28
yeah, yeah, yeah, you gotta chillax a bit man. Because you know, because you're and I gotta I gotta I gotta imagine man that the town like you you walking away from such a high profile star and project where there's probably 1000 directors in line waiting to do a job like that and you just like you know what I'm out. I'm assuming that that gave the town gave a bad timok Who is this guy? What is he really about? Like it must have been a struggle for you to even just get the next thing going again I'd

Joe Carnahan 42:59
imagine it was it was it was and you know, it's like for kids talking to it's a great story. Our workers are lawyers and lovely guy and was trying to get my daughter and Galton at the at the Tisch School at NYU. I was talking to him and he goes, Joe, I gotta tell you, I gotta I gotta I gotta thank you, man you gave you gave my client those feature career. I go Who's your colleague was JJ Abrams? Right I can help now. with great affection I adore JJ he's what he's a man. She's one of the great one of the great guys in this town. He really is.

Alex Ferrari 43:30
I've heard I've heard I've heard I've heard that phrase will work with credibly

Joe Carnahan 43:33
underrated I think it's probably one of the most lovely human beings you just he's a dialogue. So I say that, but I just think to myself, Oh, you fucking idiot. You know, you idiot. You had you had to open your mouth, then you had to say something you couldn't shut the fuck up. had to say something. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 43:51
but that's you though, man. That's, that's, that's, that's that's your brand, if you will, as a as an artist. I mean, from from what I've seen as a fan. That makes all the sense in the world like that. You were that dude?

Joe Carnahan 44:05
I guess Bro, I get Listen, I don't think I don't think I've ever I certainly don't take myself that seriously. I take the work very serious. And I think right really serious sometimes. And you have to kind of know, you know, you gotta you gotta you gotta you gotta, you know, spare your powder when you can, you know, don't die on every hill. You know, it's like you and that's, I think I think that those are those are, you know, hard fought lessons and hard learned lessons. But there are lessons nonetheless. So, you know, I'm thankful that I've that I've, and you know, do listen, there's guys out there and guys, I won't name and kind of, you know, the filmmakers that can plug into those situations and understand those ebbs and flows and so on and so forth. And it's like, and they have these tremendous, they have these, they make the you know, they make these big studio movies and franchise and sequels and so on and so forth. And I always say like, I want their money. I don't want the career, but I want the money. Right, right. Yeah.

I don't want the career. I think my career is very cool. And weird and offbeat and it mirrors. I think who I am. And so I like that because I think it has, it has its own personality. But But I'd be lying and say, yeah, shit, man, I'll take your, absolutely I'll take your money. But those guys also have the gear, the gear changes and the understanding and the nuances and the subtleties of dealing with, you know, the film exec and the studio chief and the thing that I think I possess now, but I certainly didn't, at the time, and, and, and again, you know, and there's great, that kind of that kind of savvy and that business acumen is something that I had to really work for. It took a long time to develop, and then some of those guys just have it do they just get they know what, bro they know how to surf those breaks. And, and I'm and I admire that yeah, it's

Alex Ferrari 45:49
it's, it's the, it's the I was talking to an agent once. And they said, you know, when I'm looking for in a client, a director client is I need an artist, a businessman and a politician. And they have to have all the things and and it's so so so true. Now from

Joe Carnahan 46:07
Yeah, you don't Yeah, you don't and without those things, brother you you're gonna you're gonna be left lacking you start.

Alex Ferrari 46:13
You are now you you did one of the higher I love that higher series that

Joe Carnahan 46:19
BMW. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 46:21
yeah. That How was that man?

Joe Carnahan 46:23
Oh, it was brilliant. It was Tony Scott. Like I got I got signed at RSA. Really nice company. They were so generous and so loving and so welcoming. And at the time, it was like Tony Scott john Woo. And Who the fuck is a clown? Because the people that don't pry were Fincher Frankenheimer blanket who did Chungking Express? Oh Guy Ritchie. garbagey for the star guy. g. Right. So there was this great kind of band of, of notables and then there was me bringing up the rear like a Yeah, it's me, you know. So it was but it was you know, I do that got Clive Owen f Murray Abraham. I get to work with Mario Fiore for the first time it was one of those like, you know, it felt like fantasy baseball camp. It's like, like, you put the pinstripes on and you could take batting practice, like, wow, I'm here. So it was you know, Don Cheadle. It's like, it was a blast man, Robert Patrick Ray Liotta. I got to work with these great, wonderful, wonderful people. And it was right after narcs was again, it was the and I think I was that was prior to Mission Impossible. So I'd done that just after in the kind of the rush of of narc and had a commercial career, which I never anticipated ever having, which was great. It was amazing. It is awesome. Now,

Alex Ferrari 47:45
the thing I've always loved about your filmmaking in general is that it has a very specific energy there is a kinetic energy to your films, some more some less. So like the gray has a different kind of that energy. But then I think the ultimate expression and please correct me, the ultimate expression of the Carnahan kinetic energy is smoking aces,

Joe Carnahan 48:14
like it is this I think it was until boss level.

Alex Ferrari 48:18
Yeah, no, I was gonna say boss level boss level. It looks it looks very it has that thing but the colors that the the amazing.

Joe Carnahan 48:28
Ridiculous past you had

Alex Ferrari 48:31
it smoking aces, that kinetic energy I was I was remembering like, when I saw it in the theater, I was just like, I felt abused after I finished watching it. Like I felt physically assaulted by the by the visuals of it. It was visceral. And it was so visceral it like what the loss was to it. At least one other two sequels. Right?

Joe Carnahan 48:48
Yeah, yeah. It just reverse. Yeah. Yeah, it did. So well. Yeah. What do you PJ pressure is one of them. Yeah, it was it was one of those again, as well as I think it was born out of my frustration about Mission Impossible three and this idea that I wanted to do something that was just kind of almost like it's a Mad Mad, Mad World, right, this kind of, you know, kind of zany over the top kind of assault on a penthouse with this kind of, and this this weird magician kind of illusionist at the center of it. And, and this idea of enter of these interlocking, interlocking, interlocking stories, overlapping stories, that that were just kind of, again, my kind of sense of humor, my sense of irony, my sense of the sardonic and all that weird shit. And, and, and, and it was also dude, one of those movies, I always felt that it was the outgoing regime, a universal kind of their hand grenade and the incoming regime because it was like it was working title. So I had I had the imprimatur of like, you know, Eric Foner, and Tim Bevin and then that they're really kind of high end, very British very, very studied very kind of wonderful film ographers that they had put together, and it's So they couldn't really say no but the idea that you could do that movie now Alex so you could have the main character or or not even make up the main character by default everybody else is dead unplug everything in this kind of nihilistic and it's funny it's like the movie that I'm doing right now cop shop I say it's it's it's it's absolute first cousin smokin aces but it's not nihilistic it's actually has this great heart and its core, it's probably just me getting older and softer and and not needing to kind of you know, do the you know, it was so so you would never make that film now in a traditional studios ever do they would never let you get away with it. So I thought that we got one over on everybody because it was such a downer ending, but you know, more or less, it wasn't a you know, wasn't this uplifting, kind of like, the guy just fucking unplugged everything and sits there and you know, disarms himself and throws his FBI credentials on the ground. That's that it's like, and they let me they let it go. Never happened now dude, ever

Alex Ferrari 50:57
you know what smoking is smoking is is wouldn't ever get made today. Like you just you it's crazy of all the movies I've

Joe Carnahan 51:03
made. The one that's been the Bonanza in residuals is smokin aces. Hands down, dude, I made more money after the fact on that movie than any other film The 18 any of them like that movie is so weirdly and I get friends and I go dude, every time that fucking thing's on, I watch it. And I have movies like that. Like, I don't care where jaws is where he is where, you know, Road Warrior where aliens I'm watching you know what I mean? It's like I'm in whatever it is. I'm in and predator. It's like, shit, man, you know, they're gonna you know, they're gonna you know, they're gonna kill ability or sunny things like he's dead. Like I'm in there. So it's one of those the kind of the repeatability and the playability i think is always something that it is and visually I think Morrow really was edgy shot that thing and to this day I look at and go man, I think I shot last week you know and that's the great that it has a timeless quality to it I love you know

Alex Ferrari 51:57
and the cut but it'll end the cut was insane.

Joe Carnahan 52:04
Right? Right. Right. So again it's it was it's it's just one of those movies dude that that it was also misunderstood. The same thing was like that movie was really for me about the war in Iraq. It was it was these it was it was this kind of maniacal, insane levels of violence being leveled toward forces that we weren't quite, you know, weapons of mass destruction. Who we fighting. Wait a minute, these guys these guys weren't behind. You know, none of these guys were Oh, no, they weren't, we wouldn't have guessed. So is this nutty kind. And then at the end, the government side of where we cut a better deal and fuck you. And that's really what it was about. And I just think it was like, Oh, it's just fucking crazy. And isn't it but but it's again, I'll never forget David Denby wrote the most awful review of the film, but it was so entertaining I love the review was such if you're going to get trashed, get trashed by a really good writer. get trashed by a really good read. Not like Willie waffle get trashed by epi lane or, you know what I mean? ao Scott or get trashed by a really good writer. But but it was again, I just think to this day, dude, it's there's so many fans of that movie after the dance around. And it's weird. It just plays you know,

Alex Ferrari 53:12
now you've experienced and I want everyone listening to hear it from you. Have you encountered any fake or scumbag II kind of people in your filmmaking paths are

Joe Carnahan 53:23
never broke. What? What? No. Oh. Doris Day, the pillows of love and goodness. What do you mean to No, no. Oh, Jesus. I mean, let me do one point my leg could sweet dead Kava in a scumbag it's like, you know, it's like you're just it's you know, Alex. But again, you can either let that dissuade you and you can price in a dick, which I've certainly had my moments. Or you could say, all right, this is a temporary, necessary evil, sometimes unnecessary evil, but you're stuck anyway. And you know, listen, dude, I can't listen. This is the way that I've chosen to make movies, which is largely outside the studio system, really. smokin aces and the 80s are the only studio films I've made. You know, you know, Boss level wasn't isn't as you know, it's become a Hulu film, a cop shop is st x, but that's still like, you know, we don't it's still an indie film. It wasn't financed in a traditional, you know, kind of studio model. So, you know, you you really can't this is the this is the this is the path that I've chosen to go down so I can't you know, bitch and moan about you. No, no, of course you don't. But yeah, dude, they're there tons of their fucking their knife fighters and, and in penson whores, and in, you know, they'll slice you fuckin, you know, appetite to the windpipe. It's like that's what they do so,

Alex Ferrari 54:50
and they'll smile and they'll smile doing it and they'll smile doing it. It's It's It's and I again, I always the whole point of what I do is to tell the reality of what the business is with hope like My big my my mantra for filmmakers like follow your dream But Don't be an idiot.

Joe Carnahan 55:05
Don't be an idiot and by the way, dude listen you you you you know like the great you were the great Katzenberg quote about you know in this town people live to see you fail and if you die in the process it's that much better that's how Yeah, in this town people live to see you fail if you die in the process. It's that much better. There you got a great learning one of the great Maverick kind of studio you know what I mean? A guy Yeah. Nice dude guy that's gone down swinging. And it has had you know, spectacular success. So he's absolute fucking literally right? Yeah, there's no any out is correct.

Alex Ferrari 55:45
Now um, another thing that a lot of people don't understand. It's such a reality man is rejection in Hollywood and rejection on your on your filmmaking path. And there is again, illusions of people when they receive and directors when they get to a certain level that they just like you just Joe Carnahan could just walk into universal and get whatever he wants made. And I always tell people, dude, Spielberg couldn't get Lincoln financed. Scorsese couldn't get silenced, financed for 20 years.

Joe Carnahan 56:14
Yeah, dude, this is the struggle. I mean, listen, you say this, like, you know, this week five guys, Jim Cameron Spielberg, Chris Nolan, Michael Bay. I'm trying to kind of they're kind of like, Okay, what do you want to do? But even then, it's like, now we're not gonna let you do that. You know? Yeah, no, no, no, you can't do that. Well,

Alex Ferrari 56:29
not just with Cameron, Cameron, David Cameron, Cameron. Cameron, whatever

Joe Carnahan 56:33
Cameron wants to shoot intellispace toilets, he can shoot. You know, it's it's about fun guy to come Who? They'll give him the money to do that. Right. Right.

Alex Ferrari 56:43
But it's, I always tell people like, Listen, there's only one there's literally one human being on the planet that could have made avatar there's it's not i'm not even it's not like you can't Nolan couldn't make that nobody else can make avatar. You can't walk into a studio ask. I'm going to need about $250 million to develop technology for an IP. That's no, that's not existing. And we're going to figure it out. And how are you doing today? We're

Joe Carnahan 57:08
not shooting today. Get out of here and they go Okay, well, we're not gonna bother you when I heard about

Alex Ferrari 57:12
stars and no, no major stars.

Joe Carnahan 57:15
Yeah, no major stars. Right. Well, who does that? No one. No one who camera. Jim Cameron. You know, it's like, but that's Jim Cameron. Right. And also like, you know, like, guys talk about Cameron's like, he's also the most unpretentious. It's like, Yeah, he's got these two he has, he has his way of working. And it's singular and you got to get on that thing. But at the same time, it's like, hey, Jim, you hungry? Here's a peanut butter jelly sandwich. Okay, great. You know, can I get a lift? Yeah, we just jump in the back of that truck. And okay, cool. He's not you know what I mean? It doesn't he's not precious. And I think that's what is the key to it is like, Yeah, he takes that shit. He's deadly serious about that. And I think I get that man. It's like, I always tell people it's like, Hey, don't worry, guys. It's only forever. It's only forever. This fucking moments only forever. Right? And by the way, they don't talk about oh, that's okay. That's okay. People don't discuss and 50 years. That's okay. is bullshit. We have this moment in time right now. Let's it's only forever, you know? And and that's it, right? It's like, Fuck, this is it man. This is what they're gonna see from now until the end of time. So goddamn. Take a beat do it right. And I think that's what Cameron is exceedingly brilliant at like, I'm going to do it this way. Listen, watch this. Watch aliens do it's as good now as it was an absolutely, absolutely. It is great. Now as it's a it is a crackerjack sci fi war thriller. That's just dynamite. You know, and, and he took everything that Ridley did and just weaponized it and just shot it with steroids. And it's like it. You know what I mean? Everything. All the beats are there. He just made him expansive. But I yeah, you're right. It's that guy. That guy and that guy alone? can get it done?

Alex Ferrari 58:47
Nope, not Spielberg, not that you're right. Nobody else on the planet. And you can fit and, and I think someone asked him that, like, how does it feel to be like, one of the only people in the world to be able to do something like that? Because there's like, there's a hand there's like five guys, like you just listed off a bunch of them that will get that kind of budget. And again, those kind of budgets are dependent on things, but cameras, it's not dependent on any anything else. It's insane. No,

Joe Carnahan 59:17
it's not exactly. It's just it's it's his it's what Jim wants to do. You know, and whenever when that he's gonna fall. That's amazing, dude. That's amazing. You know, what I would want that responsibility.

Alex Ferrari 59:28
Because 500 million

Joe Carnahan 59:30
fuck off and go do a $5 million film. So he can't there's there's and there's and there's an it there's a different kind of freedom and that he can't do that because expectations are too great. You know, I I don't think that is that. That is not freedom. That's that's a set of expectations that you must meet. You know, it's like Chris Nolan. Do mementos and I think that's a fucking genius. No, it's a brilliant movie. Can you go do memento again, you know, yeah, it's a well it's Chris Nolan. You know, it's like, right. So I worried that that's like and I want to see him do that again I want to see him do mentors are following was a great movies, you know? Well,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:08
you know no makeup Jeff but like that brings me to your film stretch because that's that was exactly what that was because you've been you've been playing in the in the in the semi studio and studio and like $20 million 50 like you were at a higher level, and then you like Screw it. I want to make stretch for I think you want to three to five, I think it was like three to five, right?

Joe Carnahan 1:00:29
Yeah, yeah, it was I think it was just under $5 million movie. Yeah. Right. So it was to me is one of the most talented guys I've ever worked with. And it's a joy and funniest shit and, and I adored it. I loved working on a film, but it was it was Jason Blum. And it was one of those things. It's like, listen to it, again, Jason's business model. You know, we're gonna do we're gonna make 10 of these fuckers and maybe one of them punches through. But and again, even that I was antagonistic about you know, it's like and, and because I thought, well, you know, we're gonna do you know, we should do this, you should want to, that doesn't mean it's gonna fit the studio calculus man with what they want to release and so on. So it doesn't matter. I love that little moodiness and it's just like, and I and I had a blast making it. I was making the blacklist at the same time. So it's kind of like, okay, cool, man. I'll do the big, you know, kind of fuck off TV pilot series, and I want to go make this little indie you know, because that piqued my interest. I thought it was you know, I thought it was, you know, funny. I literally messed around with like, a couple weeks ago, I was like, shit, man, I

Alex Ferrari 1:01:26
just, I mean, one just,

Joe Carnahan 1:01:27
I mean, shoot an entire film on an iPhone and cut it on iMovie just to see if I could do it. You know what I mean? Like, make a feature on an iPhone and not like, like, Swinburne made unsane. But they had they said $50,000 Panasonic, you know, painted, you know, painted vision lenses on those, you know, I mean, you still got like the G Series. I mean, that's a fucking that's a that's a that's a beautiful piece of glass, dude. So it is it is so, but really shoot it on an iPhone and say, Okay, what can you do on an iPhone and iMovie? What? How good are you? You know what I mean? Are you just full of shit? And literally say it's like, it's like the dogma thing you know, back in the day with Yeah, with the parent like Benjamin all those guys like, dominated by things like, you can only use an iPhone you can only use iMovie up use all the effects and all the music that are contained within iMovie and you got to make a feature. That to me is exciting. That's fucking cool. Now I'll probably never do it. Talk a lot of shit. But I mean, look, look, I

Alex Ferrari 1:02:21
mean, I I did my my last feature I did for about three, four grand, and it was shot on a pan of pocket camera 1080 p pocket camera. And I just ran a Sundance and shot an entire movie completely guerrilla at Sundance, about filmmakers trying to about trying to three filmmakers trying to sell their movie at Sundance and the ridiculousness of what filmmakers are at their core, the egocentric TV. Yeah, that's what I did. I shot in four days. And I came back. It was so much fun. Like I've worked on much bigger budget stuff. And I just like, I was like, You know what, I want to see if I can do it. And I want to leave something behind as a call, like a love letter to filmmakers. And I just want to see And see And see what I could do. And dude, because it was so little budget, I was like, I don't know if I got a movie. Like we shot 36 hours. Like it was a 36 hours over for four days. And I on the plane back and it was like, Do you have something like I don't know. I didn't have time to just know

Joe Carnahan 1:03:17
it in there. Yeah, dude, and I just wanted it. That's fun. Now, are you still messing with it? Is it? Oh, no, dude, it's

Alex Ferrari 1:03:23
been released already? Yeah, got it. Got it. Well premiered at rain, dance and stuff. I'll send you a link.

Joe Carnahan 1:03:27
I'll send you a link to see it. What's it called? I want to see it. Where can I see it up

Alex Ferrari 1:03:30
on the corner of ego and desire? Oh, that's great. What

Unknown Speaker 1:03:34
a great title. title.

Joe Carnahan 1:03:37
CDC you see these days? I'm

like, Guys, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you know how lucky you are to be doing this goddamn line? Are you out of your fucking mind?

Alex Ferrari 1:03:46
Just get up and do it. Like my like I always tell filmmakers and I did it. Also, as a case study to show filmmakers. I'm like, I don't look, you don't need an Alexa. You don't have a $50,000 glass. You don't need all this stuff. If you keep the budget super low, do whatever the hell you want. Now, if you would have given me $250,000 to make that movie, I would probably say no, because that story. And that audience doesn't justify that budget. And unless it was money that I could throw away. So you have to be physically responsible. But three or four grand, who gives a shit, do whatever the hell you want. And people love it. And it's been like in within my community. Really.

Joe Carnahan 1:04:21
It's, it's but that's dynamite.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:24
But that kind of goes to your point. By the way, that was two months and about, it was about six to eight weeks prior to Sundance, like me and my being my buddy just like, hey, we've got a million dollar suite that we're staying in on a main street. Shoot, let's go shoot a movie. All right, and that just kind of like let's do this, this, this, this and this. Just look at that, and that and that freedom. And I've talked to other filmmakers about it too, and they just like, look at me. They're like, Man, what was that freedom, like? Like I had three crew members. I had the DP I had the sound guy. I had myself and I had the three actors who I never met. Who I never, who I'd never met, I only Skype them. And I cast them from New York influence. I first met them. Oh, that's so it was completely and it was it was it was kind of like a Kirby enthusiasm, more improv like very structured story, but the dialogue was improvised and I was just like,

Joe Carnahan 1:05:20
which is the Mike Lee Ken Loach, you know, kind of way of the eight. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:24
just once for Mark duplass. Yeah, that whole

Joe Carnahan 1:05:26
Yeah, exactly. Dude. Exactly. Right. That's, I mean, that's dynamite like that. Yeah. And it's like, if you I guess if you get away from that stuff, then you know, you you stop being able to do I'm really freaking, who's a huge fan of it right? saying, Ah, I wish I could make a movie like that again. I wish I could just make a simply, why can't you? Why can't you and I understand what that because the expectations were? Well, it's really freakin it's got to be x. And I think when you get that's when you start to crawl up your own ass if you think you can't do that stuff. And that's why I always admire guys like Soderbergh who just says pocket man, I'm just gonna subvert because I want to and because it's fun to me. And it's interesting, you know, and I'm going to give you any number of of looks, and I don't really care how these things are quantified. Because everyone's so I'll remind you, that how great I am by doing fucking oceans like doing studio who's better than anyone else as a studio movie, and then fucking turn onto a magic mic and make it a mid off, you know, like, it's like, you know what I mean? So it's like that, to me is is is a real is a is a career worth really examining and studying, I love him. Dynamite.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:32
And he was the one and he launched Sundance. He's the one

Joe Carnahan 1:06:36
he did sex licensing, as a filmmaker do was was his sexualizing videotape, the companion that had the screenplay and his kind of diary. And it was it was it was absolute composer's absolute must read for me to kind of get my head around. You know, what the indie film scene was like? And it was it was massively helpful. That still is that you really learned anything about yourself is like, I just did this whole thing. Like I listened to Lauren green song Ringo, and put my two daughters Mike at the time, they were like, five, and they lip sync the whole song. And I did, and I had more fun doing that than I had done. You know, literally, I had more fun doing that, and got a bigger kick out of that than I have. Like, it was just messing around, you know.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:14
And that's what Rob like Robert Rodriguez. Does that all the time with his kids in the back?

Joe Carnahan 1:07:19
Did Robert Yeah, he's Yeah, dude. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:21
Robert Roberts, Robert, Robert, dude. But did you see that way? I'm assuming I'm assuming you've seen Mandalorian. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Joe Carnahan 1:07:40
You know what, dude, I've watched. I haven't watched a second season Mandalorian it was slow to get to it because I think I was kind of burned out on Star Wars for a minute.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:47
Yeah. Alright. So the episode that Robert did, which is which is a it's I think Episode Five was so it's so Robert, first of all, but he later in the behind the scenes. He actually, before he went to shoot it, he didn't have time to storyboard it. So he went in the backyard with Stormtrooper figures and shot and did a did a kind of rip ematic of the scene. He takes it to john Favre and Dave alone millennium. And he goes, Yeah, here's what I want to do. And he's and Dave, just like, halfway through. He goes all asking staffers like, Did you just go in your backyard and shoot this with, like, action figures, Star Wars action figures? And he and Roberts like, yeah, that's, that's all I had. I didn't have time to do it properly. Like, that is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. It was just

Joe Carnahan 1:08:34
no pretense Roberts, a filmmaker, he's gonna he's gonna go out and do his thing. You know, it's like, it's like, he did it. I remember seeing he had done this many years ago now. With Rose McGowan. He had done. He tried us, but he'd shown me a sizzle reel. He just shot with her. Behind the scenes. The lady in the blue dress was a sensitive thing with her with blond hair and blue eyes in the rain. And it was like, Whoa, he said, Yeah, just he shot it in an afternoon. As a proof of concept. I'm like, dude, on his computer, you know? Like, he's got that. And then and then he grabs a guitar and like, I'm like, no crank out like the score. I mean, it's fucking it's, you know, it's just another level of cool that I'm not. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:15
it's absolutely insane.

Joe Carnahan 1:09:19
It's just bananas. It really is, dude.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:21
So dude, honestly, the gray your film, the gray dude is arguably I just I think Love, love, love that film. And they marketed it so beautifully. Like, oh, wait a minute. Liam Neeson is gonna strap on some bottles and fight

Joe Carnahan 1:09:37
by default and we'll

Alex Ferrari 1:09:38
find a fucking Well, that was that was that was just loke that's high concept as you can.

Joe Carnahan 1:09:45
And it was like, yeah, and dude, it was one of those things too. It's like I remember we had like, you know, like a two hour and 25 minute, you know, you know mediation, life and death with occasional wolf attacks. It became an hour and 45 minute wolf attack with occasional mediations online and it was you know what it is like? You don't I mean it's like it was like you know it's like you know you you did you we change the the the the the polarity of that entire movie because we understood like you this way you need to give the odds but that ending was always It was never source poppers like listen the guys made a choice how he's going to die and that's all you need to see after that it's superfluous doesn't we don't need to fight because we had a fight we had we caught a whole fight and I was just was never a fan of it and you see a little and one of the flashbacks, the wolf snapping his face that was from the fight. And we use that as kind of a nightmare to jar him out of the sleep, but it was like, it was more and it not because, you know, can be nicotero and Harberger those guys made that these great kind of, you know, snapping puppet ends and the alpha and, and, and but it was one of those it's weird too because I feel like I'll spend the rest of my career chasing what it felt like to make that movie which was we were we were we were having this adventure and we just have been making a movie at the same time. You know, we were up in like, in Smithers, British Columbia in that like in the in the deep deep snow we got blown off the mountain twice I would snowblind I'd never I mean, you know like you You don't know what that's like your eyes just constantly buzzed focus, because you don't have any sense of background. And and then I stayed out there out where we were this cabin and I'm telling you dude, at six o'clock at night is pitch black. And it's it is a quiet like, you will never experience in your life that that quiet. Which must sound like what like what it was sound like when no one's coming for you. You're dead out. It was like, thank God, you know, but like it was it was Yeah, it was it was a remarkable experience. Dude, it was very much about you know, where I was, like, people ask me it's like, it's funny. Like, you get asked about films where and my I'm always at a loss because I go, I don't really know that guy. I knew that guy. I was that guy. I don't know what the fuck that guy was thinking I so I'm not really, I could give you I could give you an approximation of what I what it was about to me. But I've heard theories about the film that are far more interesting and intriguing and smarter than anything I've ever come up with, you know what I mean? So you know, those things, just let it go. It's like, it's, it's out there. It's gonna it's gonna speak to different people in different ways. And you have to just allow that, those translations to take place because you Who are you to say what the fuck it should mean? You know, I know what it means to me. I know what it's about.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:15
I mean, he, I mean, I mean, obviously diehard is the greatest Christmas movie of all time. Now, that wasn't the intention. But it

Joe Carnahan 1:12:24
has become that way has become the again duty to you, you know, your, whatever those things are, whatever those you know, I've had people send me pictures, I tattooed a poem on their arm. I'm like Jesus Christ. You know, it's like, which is dynamite. But but it's a little it's also, you know, it's like, it's a bit overkill, but I get it, man. I've had people say, Listen, my dad was dying during that time. And that movie meant a lot to us. Oh, man, you know, it's like, wow, it's the heart. It's amazing, dude. So, again, that's for it to do anything that approaches that kind of, I'm so thrilled Dude, that it did that. And again, you can't it's like a kid you sent out to college, and he winds up, you know, you know, being successful and you're kind of just in orbit but but that's his, those all movies have their own existence, you release them and then they do their thing. And then they grow and mature and, and take on qualities that you could have never foreseen and that's always that's such a lovely thing about this about about making films that they really evolve. Yeah. wonderful ways.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
You know, now you, you, you, you lose. A lot of people don't know this, but you also write everything you do. So yeah, pretty much you have a hand in everything you do. And you also just wrote like one of this year's big or last year's biggest movies, bad boys. The new bad when I saw anytime I see your name come up on a screen, dude. I'm like, aware of this gonna be fun. Like I just like I always, I'm always like, when I saw the blacklist and like others, okay, I got, I guess Joe's doing this. That's it, it's gonna be fun.

Joe Carnahan 1:13:59
Because you're a good time, dude, you're in for

Alex Ferrari 1:14:01
you. This is gonna be fun, I don't care what it is. It's gonna be interesting. It's gonna be fun, let's let's rock. And that's and that's the brand that you've you've cultivated over over the course of your career. And for guys like me, who kind of grew up at the, you know, similar similar vintages as far as age is concerned, and seeing what you've done. I'm like, Oh, I that's okay, this job I get what you're gonna do. So what is what is your writing process to because you're prolific

Joe Carnahan 1:14:26
as a writer, you write a lot? Or do I right now it's funny, man. You know, you're not I'm not in the zone. I've been in the zone for a while, because I haven't really been writing and, and, you know, so. But, you know, it takes me it takes me a day or two, like, I'll usually go somewhere and just get so I'm alone and I could focus and it'll be a day or so. Be just tinkering around and dicking around until I start to get that thing moving. And then once it's moving, it's great. But it's like, you know, it's like, it's like juggernaut the complicated once you start going in one direction, he's just gonna keep going. It's gonna run through shit. And that's kind of how it is right? Like you're just gonna you have I had the keep that momentum. But it's but But listen, sometimes, you know, I'll write a page in a day, sometimes I write 10 pages just depends, it's really, but it's but it's my, it's the kind of the erstwhile it's my most favorite thing to do, therapeutically and creatively is to write still, because I just take great comfort in it, because I can really, you know, and I've been doing it a long time, dude, and it you know, after any, hopefully, you know, you've been doing it for 30 years, you start to get good at it, or you understand the kind of the ebbs and flows of structure and character and dialogue, and so on. So, it's a lot of, you know, I don't do like vomit, drafts, I don't just jam, I take my time, and I write refined stuff, and then I rewrite, and then I refine, and I rewrite, find more. So I never just, you know, plow something out there for kind of general consumption, it's got to be kind of, I put a lot of fuckin, you know, a lot of a lot of heat on a lot eyes on a lot of TLC, because I just think that's what you know, but, but it is, it is a it is a process to get into that mode. You know what I mean? And you think because I'm editing right now, it's it's kind of a companion pieces writing, it's really not, it is a writing process. It's just not actual writing. So you're asking me this. Now, if I was writing, I'd have a much more fluid, I wouldn't seem a lot more confident. But right now.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:26
I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever write again. I don't know. But that's your, you know, dude, like, when I'm writing when I'm writing, like, when I write my books or things like that, like, you get down that road and you just start, you start writing and write and write and write and write. And then you stop. And you just like, Can I start this up again? Like it's, it's that it isn't meant

Joe Carnahan 1:16:46
to stay in it. I have to really stay in it. Yeah, if more than two days, three days without right. It's hard to get, it's hard to get back in. And I'll find myself waking up at odd hours to get to go back and keep moving. And again, sometimes these are little pyrrhic victories sometimes they're big kind of swaths of stuff that you covered. But but but it's it is in the best of scenarios. It is it is not excruciating, but it can be and there's scripts I've written to that, you know, like my script for death wish is still the Best Screenplay I've ever written. I think it's my Best Screenplay. Because it was a total pain to kind of the ideas of the way that the gray was about being you know, this kind of macho bravado and who what we're expected to be as men and so on so deadly is very much sad but it's like you know are my my core coward Am i would i if faced with these things, so I wrote this kind of pan to that pain and and and this the emergent killer in this guy, we realize oh, you're this you're a doctor. But that's the fraud. You're actually a killer. That's who you are. this other thing is, you know, your your your you know, your Mr. Hyde masquerading as Dr. Jekyll but you've always been Mr. High. So it was and do you know, I had to like, sit and watch that thing be sad in a way that I did not agree with. There was nothing like my screenplay, right? But I took and so you shut the fuck up. And I did you know, and not that I can't say it's like a man doesn't matter what the hell I think of it. You know, it's like, it was not it was mine was very, very different. But it was one of those things where I pull it out. Do not go boy, ain't you ain't that guy. You ain't that guy. You know, but dude, at the same time, I remember writing it on scotch and probably cocaine. Like, a little bit of blood, but like, but it was, but that fuel is false. And and again, you I've learned that now because I'm basically kind of sober at this point in my life. And and I feel more energized and more capable and more willing. So I don't think that these are things that can just be accessed. I think again, we all have that romantic kind of, you know, Hemingway and Steinbeck and peck and pond all these guys were hard drinkers and koski know Yeah, you know, they died young and they died horribly, you know, so

Alex Ferrari 1:19:00
yeah, they didn't they didn't like quietly in their sleep surrounded by loved ones.

Joe Carnahan 1:19:05
The roads delivered anyway, both barrels of an over under shot, you know, so like, Yeah, he you know, they went out, you know, they went out of a very grandiose fashion. So, you romanticize that and I realize it's not really where it is. So now and I also think that there's a there's a reticence on my part to jump back into something original, because I know there's, there's, for me, there's a there's the high watermark can we get back there and be that because I still write for people that read, I don't write bullshit scene breaks I write, you know, and that's what Death Wish was, you know, the first 25 pages are a standard screenplay. The minute that guy gets attacked, the entire thing shifts to first person so there's no more scene breaks I wrote outright entire page that just Asterix because he's knocked out. And then it goes into large, large font, and then it takes half the pages empty and then you don't I mean, like I was doing, it was kind of like art to me. You know, and I thought that damn like, I don't know, if I ever get back to that, you know? That's kind of the That's exciting to me. It's like, Fuck, I got it, I got it. I gotta figure out how to top that I got to figure out a way to get you know, write some that's I think is better. You know what I mean? And that's, you know what I mean that and that's kind of a it's a great, it's a great. That's a great expression of energy, you know? Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:19
Now there was there was one script that yours that was fairly famous that didn't get made. I know it's something that you always wanted to make killing Pablo.

Joe Carnahan 1:20:27
Yes, which was the script, but

Alex Ferrari 1:20:29
I heard that someone literally because screenwriters are always scared of people taking stealing their work and doing something with it. You from what I understand someone literally took the cover off of the script, their name, or

Joe Carnahan 1:20:42
I'll tell you whose names Yeah, this guy, his guy, this guy literally was he went got wined and dined by the Colombian government. I've been down there a couple times. And he literally just tore the cover page Robinson written by Bobby Ray and that was the that was the I saw the screenplay I got next to there was and I thought wow, and again, we go back to you know, the treachery you experience in this business. It's like I don't know where the guy is now. I might be who knows what he's doing his part maybe selling snow cones. I don't know what the hell he's doing. But you know, it was you know, what would have shocked and awed me back then it just disgust and contempt is like yeah, you know, he made a run out of man he tried to he tried to sell an angle he tried to but yeah, was basically using that to kind of you know, get in his way with the Colombian government which is just insane to me,

Alex Ferrari 1:21:27
but the smarter not the smartest thing

Joe Carnahan 1:21:30
Yeah, now now when you can track it and by the way, the script the script have been around for a little bit and gotten gotten a lot of good attention and so you know, but but then you know, then you know, Josie Odeon and Wagner Mora and they did you know, they do that great, you know, thing with with Narcos it's like I couldn't eat it could have been a better team to tell that story. So I wasn't, I was bummed out. But my my screenplay was really balanced book was really the manhunt for Escobar not so much and I think that's the problem I had finding someone want to play Escobar because Javier Bardem was going to do it for a while. And I think they wanted they wanted that Robin Hood like romantic angle of Pablo, and he was a fucking absolute bloodless killer. And yeah, of this family. We all do. You know, you can be a homicidal maniac and still love your kids. And and that's what he was, I think I was more interested in that in the in the run up and how insane he almost tipped over a democracy at the time. 62 million people in Colombia, it's like this guy almost almost ran the table, you know, and, and to me, and it was because of some very brave people, Colombian officials that stood against that shit, not unlike we just experienced it in a very different way that basically stemming the tide of that becoming a narco state, you know, but yeah, man, it was it was, you know, again, one of those screenplays is like, man, god damn it, you know.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:55
But there's always we always have that story or that film or that thing that we couldn't, couldn't get made. It's not even the lack and that's the thing I want people to understand. It's not the lack of quality. It's not the lack that if it's a good script, or if it's a marketable script, sometimes the stars just don't align.

Joe Carnahan 1:23:14
You know, I've had it happen Dude, I had listen. White jazz, which is equal to LA confidential, you know, my brother and I wrote the absolute shit out of that script. And I've been and I we were, we were literally like a year ago on the one inch line with Netflix, right to go do that. Oh, and it just didn't, you know, just didn't happen. And I remember there was like, the British version of torshin books reached out to me and said, Do you mind sending us your materials and we just we want to include it in a in a in a compendium called the 20 greatest movies you'll never see. I mean, you go fuck yourselves. What? No, I'm not sending you honor. flattered. Oh, wow, you like it that much. You want to include your book of movies? You'll never fucking get it made? No, but no. Fuck off.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:54
And can you imagine if they called Kubrick up and like, Can you send me your notes on Napoleon? Napoleon? Yeah,

Joe Carnahan 1:23:59
it's like, ah, but no, ever fucking live to fight another day. Dude. You live to fight another day. You know?

Alex Ferrari 1:24:06
So dude, so? So boss love dude.

Joe Carnahan 1:24:10
Yes,

Alex Ferrari 1:24:10
it's it's insane, dude, like the trailer looks insane. It's basically so basically this is what I did. This is my analogy of it. It's Groundhog's Day, which of course was just the first kind of like, time like film that I can remember. Groundhog's Day meets

Joe Carnahan 1:24:27
diaries. I heard it Yeah, it's what it is. It really is. It's like it's it's it's just again, it's just one of those movies that everything it's tried to do and we tried to do it and it just worked. And it's funny as shit. There's complete kind of this is young actress Selena Lowe, who plays go on in Yeah, this trailers just absolutely steals the movie. And then you've got Frank Grillo in this in this kind of really, you know, do we want I said do watch some funny we watched like, we watch singing rings until watch Jean Kelly watch the way he moves. Watch Harrison Ford watch how Harrison Ford watches relationship with the camera man watch how he understands where he's at. And you're you're setting about making this very deliberate kind of big Hollywood kind of spectacle action movie comedy. That's just absolutely fucking bonkers that they never would have let me do this stuff do because it's nuts. But it's but when I tell you, it's one of the funniest. It's just laugh out loud, funny, it just works. And, and we're and again, I'm incredibly fortunate that in fact, because it's been you know, two years of struggle and hardship and so on, to get it out Finally, and God bless the powers that be at Hulu. They saw it and responded to it the way that we wanted them to. And so yeah, man, it's it's it's not it's but and

Alex Ferrari 1:25:50
once it come out, and once it come out,

Joe Carnahan 1:25:52
March 5 on Hulu, which I think is I don't know what day that is. But that's I can't wait to It's so good. So good. It's so much fun. It really is. It's really and like I said, it's emblematic of me and my personality. It's just

Alex Ferrari 1:26:04
Oh, it No, it's

Joe Carnahan 1:26:05
not logical that it gets serious then it goes back to being you know, kind of, it's great. And he's great at it. You know? Now he really is, you know, now it was great, Neil, right? No.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:17
Yeah, Mel, Mel, I mean, Mel's melted and I and I'm looking forward to seeing I'm looking forward to seeing Lethal Weapon five, five vs. Five. Yeah, let's see what they do with us.

Joe Carnahan 1:26:30
I know.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:30
I know. And Donna's doing it and Donna's doing it I guess

Joe Carnahan 1:26:34
I guess the script is actually really good. I love the dictators do a 90

Alex Ferrari 1:26:39
I was gonna say How old is he? Like that's like how

Joe Carnahan 1:26:42
8989 nine years old? Still doing it Clinton 90. So I mean, that's our that's how I want to go off just we'll I don't care what a bucket wheelbarrow if I'm just ahead. And like a small intestine just we'll be around let me say cotton action. And I'll be

Alex Ferrari 1:26:56
like Hitchcock, it's like Hitchcock was literally being rolled around on a wheelchair rolled around.

Joe Carnahan 1:27:02
He's like 40 I mean, that's

Alex Ferrari 1:27:03
you know, it's not you know, to be fair, to be fair,

Joe Carnahan 1:27:05
yeah. Right. But But yeah, dude, I you know, it's like, you know, I think it was like reading an article years and years and years ago when when David Lee was trying to make the straw man he couldn't get insured because he was too old and always broke my heart. I'm like, fucking Dave. You can't figure out how to put David lean on set, you know, or like when Alban had a basically a PT Anderson like kind of Yeah, kind of understudying on I forget the movie, but but those stories are always kind of like I just want to be vibrant enough and still mentally acute and cogent enough that I can that I can understand what their physical

Alex Ferrari 1:27:42
and physical

Joe Carnahan 1:27:43
if I'm not even putting up is just don't take my mind just don't strictly have my you know, you don't I mean, like, don't have me start talking to my like, like my boogers, please like I don't want to do you know what I mean? Please just bear with that, you know?

Alex Ferrari 1:27:58
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions ask all my guests bro. What is the one thing you wish you could tell your younger self? Oh, God, I

Joe Carnahan 1:28:07
think I want to do but I would just say to him a dude, pace yourself. Don't talk so much. You don't have to entertain everybody. Sometimes silence is golden. Not it'd be nice to know your opinion at every moment and and and just know enough to know when you don't need to do anything. Just let it be. You know, and chill. Patience. My son patience. That's what I would tell him.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:35
So what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Joe Carnahan 1:28:40
Um, you gotta outwork everybody man. You really man. It's like you know like the stuff that like Vijay Singh is a golfer he got hit 1000 balls nobody else to hit 100 you should be hitting 1000 balls you should be out there you know perfecting and honing your craft and getting better and better and better and learning all the tricks of the trade and in addition to learning those shortcuts, learn that the areas you can save yourself time you know you're saying but and and understand everybody's job. Know what the note the note a colorist does know what the you know know what, you know the sound mixer does know what the the production designer does know what the sound designer But no, no these various jobs No, the DP no lenses, not that you have to know these things and you know, an encyclopedic kind of for like Kubrick or Spielberg that know those things like specific like ground glass how that thing is gonna that's a whole nother level of freakish genius, but get yourself educated and and and, and don't take a goddamn thing for granted. Because you can't take anything for granted. Nah, man, you would not ever been Certainly not. Now, there's a lot of competition out there and it's stiff. And I wouldn't want to be coming up right now when you're trying to like bust through. When you got guys like danishes I'll do what he's doing, which I think is wunderkin like and you know, so it's a tough it's a tough road to hoe for sure.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:00
Yeah, it's it's the the world's changing so effin rapidly man. It's just looks so ridiculous. Our business has changed so dramatically in the last year. Yeah, man, but like like

Joe Carnahan 1:30:10
literally like you said you'd send it prior pocket like we may never recover and it's certainly not going to look the way it's look in the past and I think that's you know when Alex that's all right do that's okay. Like, but

Alex Ferrari 1:30:22
but it didn't but it didn't look but it didn't look the same way since like when VHS showed up and DVD showed up and then streaming showed up like it's always color showed up sound showed up like it's always this is just changing. Just, there's just, it's just happening so much faster now.

Joe Carnahan 1:30:37
Hey, bro, listen, I got one of those Oculus quest put that on Play beat Sabre and tell me that you're not gonna have to fuck with VR at some point. Play super hot and tell me you're not get the fuck out of here. How do you compete? How do you how do you compete with that? It's a foreigner dollar unit. It's cool in any video game I've ever owned in my life. You know? Like, are you kidding me? It's like so so you know, you're gonna wait, you have to do these things. And you can't get mired in tradition. You can't get mired in what's got to be this way. I got to make a studio. Listen, when I was young. If you had a to picture deal and universal you were you're hot shit. That's indentured servitude. Basically, you're just giving your ideas to send you just give me your IP away. You know, it's like, don't do that. Or if you're going to do it do the way Todd Phillips doesn't that guy. It's like, yeah, let me make it for you. No, let me make my little fee. And then I'm going to take a gigantic piece of your bag and in success. And that's and that's a guy playing a game at a very, very high level, you know? So there are ways there's certainly ways to game the system. And even with Chris Nolan. Like, listen, whenever your feelings about tennis, right? You liked it, you didn't like it, whatever. The fact that guys still taking those kind of swings at the plate to try to put the ball fucking 500 feet from home play. You got to have those guys, man, that's exciting to me. So there's all these areas of progress and evolution. And it's like you, you've got to find them. You got to make them your own. And you got to extend your own game, whatever that may be. And the hardest question of all three of your favorite films of all time. That's not that difficult dude. Raging Bull. Raging. Raging Bull Raiders lost art. And there's a film called horror carry saga Kobayashi from 1963 seppuku that's basically I think, is the best Samurai film and then may may may Curacao strike me dead from beyond, but like, it's one of those movies that just I just adored it and I just saw it. I just show it to my dp in Atlanta, we had like a, we put like a big like a home theater in the base of this place. We would watch movies. It's just one of those epically brilliant, slow burns that you just don't see anymore. I love that film. Dude,

Alex Ferrari 1:32:35
it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. Like I could talk. We could talk. We could talk for another two or three hours. Yeah, we could do any time you want to come back.

Joe Carnahan 1:32:45
You're always welcome to Oh, if I got a DUI or I'm in trouble, Bro, I gotta come on. You know, you gotta make a little room for me, bro. You know?

Alex Ferrari 1:32:52
My goal. My goal is now to get you to go out and make a five or $10,000 film like that's

Joe Carnahan 1:32:57
I Dude, I'm telling you right now we're gonna talk offline, but I don't think I don't think that's a bad idea. I don't and I think there's some there's some I think it's ballsy to go do that and he has to go out and solicit like, let me go make a $10 million film. You know, what can you do with nothing? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:33:11
right. And and in today's world, like when you and I were coming up man like it was expensive as hell to do anything like you shot on film. Like that seven grant was filled stock 12

Joe Carnahan 1:33:21
has got a better camera than any any film or video game we've ever used in our lives. And Chris Rock some eight What is it an 8k? Whatever the case? That is insane dude, in it. That is lossless. Like you could like we had to go live or shoot you got to go beta cam beta SP debase. Oh, this generation Lawson you have to deal with that shit.

Alex Ferrari 1:33:41
three quarter inch, one inch, three quarter inch just to get the film flicker,

Joe Carnahan 1:33:44
I can do that on fucking on a filter. You know, colleagues, give me a break, dude. You know, it's like, this is the kind of shit that's at that's at your fingertips. So it's like I tell you, so stop dicking around on Twitter and Facebook to go and examine and explore these things because they're amazing, you know, and you can really do something you can really do great shit for no money. The key isn't the watch McCall. The barrier of entry is not the tech anymore, and the cost of the tech. It is the How To Make Money With it, how to get it seen know that but it's also the creative gumption and ambition. There's that to get it because you know what, you may not make a fucking dime. And you've got to come to grips with that. You've got to say, okay, that's the possibility. How bad do you want it? That question remains that question persists. Brother.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:31
It has been a pleasure. Keep doing what you're doing. And I appreciate I appreciate you man.

Joe Carnahan 1:34:36
Thank you so much, brother.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:39
I want to thank Joe for coming on the show and dropping his bullet written knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Joe. If you want to check out his new film boss level, it's going to be available March 5, exclusively on Hulu. Now if you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at any time. Film hustle.com forward slash 443. And guys, if you haven't already, head over to if h academy.com. And check out the amazing new courses we have on the platform, including James v hearts screenwriting masterclass the film distribution Blueprint by yours truly, and many, many more. Again, that's ifH academy.com. Thank you so much for listening guys, as always, keep that also going, keep that dream alive. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.