Screenwriters | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 432: Making Your Own Damn Movies: Inside Dave Campfield’s Troma-Fueled Filmmaking Path

August 14, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

When two Daves walk into a podcast, you don’t expect to stumble upon a meditation on art, failure, persistence, and horror-comedy. But that’s exactly what happened in this electric and delightfully unfiltered conversation with Dave Campfield, a filmmaker, actor, and host of the Troma Now Podcast, best known for his work in the cult Caesar and Otto comedy-horror film series.

Dave Campfield is a fiercely independent filmmaker whose journey from a now-defunct film college in New Mexico to directing his own cult horror satires has been a long and winding road paved with hustle, humor, and horror.

We start in the sand-colored surrealism of Santa Fe, where adobe buildings and the ghost of City Slickers set the stage for Dave’s early filmmaking dreams. In the land of tumbleweeds and tumble-down gym studios turned sound stages, Dave cut his teeth not just on film but on the art of adaptation. The college no longer exists, but the memories—like chalk lines under studio lights—remain vivid in his story. “It was like going to school on Tatooine,” he says, laughing, but behind that joke is a bittersweet nod to the ephemeral.

From there, Dave walks us through the illusion of success—early meetings with Universal and New Line Cinema where hopes were dangled like carrots in front of eager young dreamers. The industry, he quickly learned, speaks its own coded language: familiarity, marketability, and sometimes, plain deception. One mentor told him to “say you’re young, from the streets, and have a dark comedy,” regardless of truth. Dave gave it a shot but came away with the haunting realization that “they were intrigued enough to keep me on leash, but not enough to make it happen.”

That experience seeded his first real film, “Dark Chamber,” a mystery-horror project which deliberately bucked slasher formulas. It took five years to make—five years of blood, sweat, and overdrafts. And yet, when the studios responded with, “We wanted something more familiar,” Dave knew he was swimming upstream. Still, he sold the film to a small distributor, endured its repackaging as something it wasn’t, and got it onto Netflix. A win—just not the one he envisioned.

But here’s the heart of it all: Dave didn’t stop. He pivoted, not with bitterness, but with evolution. “I decided I wasn’t going to be one of those people waiting for opportunity. You had to make it happen on your own.” And so, he leaned into comedy horror—a genre he describes as “Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, but for the splatter generation.” Thus, Caesar and Otto were born: two absurdly lovable doofuses bumbling their way through massacres, monsters, and paranormal mayhem.

One of Dave’s secret weapons is loyalty to what’s real. Whether recounting how Lloyd Kaufman forgot him (then remembered) or editing commercials for the Philadelphia Pet Expo, he keeps a kind of grounded magic about his craft. He shares a deeply personal new project, “Awaken the Reaper,” born from a decade of introspection and struggle, calling it “the most personal thing I’ve ever written.” He says, “It’s about being stuck—feeling like every day you’re not moving forward—and finally getting out of your own way.”

All along, Dave’s been quietly building a reputation for casting future stars before they break—Trey Byers (Empire), Peter Scanavino (Law & Order)—and hosting a podcast that thrives not just because of brand synergy with Troma, but because he genuinely knows how to talk to people. “They’ve never rejected an episode,” he remarks. “I tease Troma a lot, and they’re always game. It’s a beautiful collaboration.”

The conversation wraps not with grandiosity, but a recognition that even the smallest cult followings can keep a creator going. “My fanbase is small, but intense,” Dave says with pride. “I can rattle them off on two hands.” Maybe that’s enough. Maybe that’s everything.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:06
On this episode, my guest plays Caesar in the comedy team Caesar and Otto. He hosts the Troma Now podcast, and he also was a filmmaker himself. We also talked about he went to a college that no longer exists, which, again, as you know, I probably find really funny. Not not the fact that he went there and doesn't exist, but the fact that the college, do you know, the college doesn't exist anymore. Because, you know, we talk about all that stuff that we talk about the worst onset experiences, including when someone pulled a knife on a first ad, and we talked about getting to work with Troma, creating his own movies, finding an audience, tons more stuff. This is a really awesome interview about going out there and just doing it yourself, and finding all the ways and different connections. And you never know what's going to happen with guest, Dave Campfield.

Dave Campfield 2:40
Actually, we got two, Dave's right here. It's gonna become like that. Chieftain, strong sketch, hey, Dave's not here. Man, no, it's me, Dave, your guest. Dave, so happy new year.

Yeah. Same to you, buddy. Is it snowing where you are, by the way,

I haven't looked out the window today. I'm not gonna lie to you. Oh, I'm a bit of a shut in.

Dave Bullis 3:02
Hey, same here, man. I just kind of look at my window from time to time, being like, oh, that's what it's doing outside. Okay, actually, I have a huge window right in front of me, but you can't see it because we're on a podcast, but, but I swear it's there.

Dave Campfield 3:15
We can swear a lot of things there. That's the beauty of podcasting. You know, I'm talking to you from the shuttle tiger in outer space. And, yeah, welcome to the podcast today.

Dave Bullis 3:30
Yeah, it's great, man. I mean, I could just make up anything too. You know, it's great. It's I, my supermodel wife is actually going to in the kitchen right now making me some lunch. So it's great.

Dave Campfield 3:42
You have a supermodel wife. I do too.

Dave Bullis 3:44
It's great, man. It's great. Oh, it's a small world. Both named Dave, both have supermodel wives. It's great man. And both host podcasts, yeah, both, oh, my God. Well, we should just make a new show called Dave and Dave and and every week we just come on and just, just whatever, whatever stream of consciousness, every any lie, any whatever comes off the top of our head, no one will know the truth either way, and they can kind of like figure out, you know, what are lying about? What's the truth?

Dave Campfield 4:10
This is very psychedelic. Let's get back to reality for a second.

Dave Bullis 4:14
So, so Dave, I wanted to have you on the podcast because we actually met through again, through the magic of Twitter, and you host your own podcast. You're a filmmaker, and hey, you know what? You have an awesome first name. So I figured, you know why? Why not? You know, have you on. We could talk about all this good stuff. We were kind of, you know, missing each other, so to speak. Because I know we try to make our schedule, schedule sync, but you're on now. So, so that's why I wanted to have you on, because, also because, you know, we both, you know, watch a lot of troll movies. We both know Lloyd Kaufman, he's actually been on the show as well. And it's just, you know, again, small world. So, you know, just to get started, Dave wanted to ask you know about your whole career and how you got started in the film industry. And also, some. The really cool you do, too, is, Dave, you do what I've been starting to move this podcast to do, and that is, you actually make movies the same time to the podcast. You know what I mean, like, you're actually out there doing stuff at the same time. I've actually haven't made anything since I started this podcast, which is crazy, but and this and your episode 198 so it's kind of crazy, man, but so I wanted just to get started at the beginning, and that is, you know, when you finally started making your own films. So just to start us at the beginning, did you? Did you go to film school?

Dave Campfield 5:34
I went to a college that doesn't exist anymore. Went to the College of Santa Fe in New Mexico. And I went there because it was the only film college in the United States, only college united states that had a film studio on campus. So parts, basically it was, they took their gym and they renovated it, and they shot part of city slickers there, another big film? So, like I when you go into this massive facility and in New Mexico where, where this was, all of the houses and all of the architecture of the building is to code, and everything looks like an adobe building. So yeah, this visual land of imagination between, like, the amber tones of the of the scent of the, you know, there was no grass there. It was like, it was like, go to school on Tatooine in Star Wars. And the film college was, was the renovated gym. I mean, the film studio was the renovated gym. And you could see in, I'm being pointed to where they shot city slickers, you know, this is where they they shot a nighttime fire scene indoors, you know, like it was, it was a lot of the exteriors at night were actually shot inside, you know, like they were able to transform it into the into A grand Vista, grand landscape. And I could see on the glowing ground too, where they shot city slickers, that the basketball court had still existed. The chalk marks from the from the basketball court were still there. But the appeal of going there was really just to be able to witness filmmaking firsthand. And, you know, I want to, I was in school with people who went off to be pretty successful, like Rocklin. Dunbar was a classmate of mine, and now he you can see him in a lot of things, from prison break to he was in Kiss, kiss, bang, bang. He's one of those guys you've seen many, many times. But you know, back then we were both just kids and trying to find a way. And I think college tends to be more about the experience you get working on film sets and meeting other people film college than it is necessarily even some of the stuff that you learn in the classroom, because that you can learn hands on. And so that's where I got started. And you know, I met a good group of friends that I continue to collaborate with over the years and stay in touch with. And my roommate and I were working on a production we're trying to get production off the ground. And he secured two meetings, two meetings, one with a New Line Cinema, one with universal and like this is ridiculous. For about 21 years old, we got a meeting with these two major studios. Things are looking good. The future is looking bright. So bright I had to wear shades. And so we got the universal meeting, and I realized there was nothing to lose, because right up front, they told us, look, fellas, we're having this meeting, but to tell you the truth, we're not going to take your work, but we're interested in meeting you like all right, well, that takes the pressure off, because whatever we have no we have no background, but we make our best pitch, and it was a good meeting, and at the end of which we realized we weren't gonna get anything out of it, maybe other than a contact when we went to New Line, that's when the pressure was on, because it was a somewhat albeit tiny chance that they could look at the script and hire us to make and we got we got prepped by like an entertainment lawyer That was a friend of a friend of a friend, and they were giving us all the pointers that you have to say in your big production meeting. And he was telling us, when you guys go in, what they want to hear is that you're young, you're from the streets, you've got a story to tell, and you've got a dark coming of age comedy and like the stuff they liked from the past, like Grosse point blank or Heather stuff like that. Just tell them, that's the language they speak. So we're going to the New Line Cinema, meeting with Matt Alvarez and so fellas, Tell us. Tell us what you got. So, hey, well, well, that where we're young. We're from the streets. So we're telling a story from hard, a dark comedy, sort of like, you know, like a key, gross point blank or or like a Heathers. And there's a pause as he's sitting looking at us from across the table, and he says to us, you know, I just said, this is all very intriguing, so, and that began at when I was at age 21 like a year long relationship with New Line Cinema in which it was, it was the absolute carrot being dangled in front of the the rabbit and being just out of reach, because it went on like I would do little changes for them, and he, Matt would respond and and I would do another change and take a few months for him to respond again. And there was clearly in touch. But, you know, I saw the writing on the wall. I felt like they were intrigued enough to keep me on leash, but not intrigued enough to make that thing happen. And Matt went off to do one of producing all the ice cube movies. And I decided that I was going to try to, you know, not, not not become one of those people that get into that limbo of just waiting for that big opportunity to happen. You just had to make it happen on your own. So I began production on a my own film called under surveillance, later retitled dark chamber. And my attitude going into it is, I've seen a lot of indie film, like straight to DVD movies, and they tend to sit at a certain pattern, and the the kind of emphasis was on the Murder, Mayhem, destruction and following the paint by numbers plot. You know, that's nothing against them, but that's what they do. You know, like when you go into some of these movies. It's sort of like, okay, the Friday the 13th homage number 2000 and I really wanted to do something different. I wanted to take I wanted to make it character based. I wanted to make it different. I wanted to surprise you, maybe more of a mystery thriller with some horror in there. And that was my attitude going into it. And after like, five years for I spent five years on this, and the things went wrong. This documentary is online. If you type in, you know, the release title was dark chamber. If you type in, making dark chambers, you will see everything that could go wrong in five years, because it usually does when you're making a film. It's amazing how many things could go wrong, especially you just don't have because you're always cutting quarters, you're always compromising. Things are always, you know, money is not on your side. So you're constantly working around issues. And so I spent that time making this, and I was so happy that I made a film that, as I see, broke the conventions of the genre, and I'm proud of my little, young self, and like, I go to the studios, I'm like, here, and then their response is, we wanted something that was more familiar. I'm like, Oh, son of a bitch. I thought, like, I you know, so all of those times when I'm looking at these movies is because they're encouraged to be familiar and they're encouraged to follow the same things and character matters less than does hitting certain beats of of gore and other marketable elements. And I didn't really make that kind of film, but a couple companies said we're interested. And the one I went with was can't motion pictures, slash shock a Rama. And he told me right off the bat, I like this, but to get it into the marketplace, we're gonna have to sell it as a horror, and at that point, all right, do what you have to do. And yeah, got into Netflix. And, you know, people were expecting saw when they saw a cover with a pentagram carved into the back of the of the actress. There was no woman in the movie who got the pentagram carved in her back that made, they made the film look so gory, um, and that was simply what they felt was going to make it viable in the marketplace and at the same time and change the expectations of the audience. But, you know, if I had this perfectly marketed as film with the property, like, if it was called under surveillance, and it had a cover that thoroughly dig, that thoroughly representative film, maybe 10 people would have seen it. So that's the, you know, that's the trade off. I guess. If you if you have a film that doesn't have big stars and and it doesn't have a content that that looks like a standard horror, people whose interest you know, and why? Why see that when Hollywood's presenting the bigger budget equivalent to that same thing, with more production values and more polish some you know, the you live, you learn. And that was, that was a very educational experience. And from there, I began doing. Comedy horrors, because I want to be different in the marketplace, and I want to tell I also want to tell stories that I miss the kind of story and and the Cesar nano franchise, you know, started off with summer camp massacre, dead of the X Men paranormal Halloween. These are their comedy horror satires where you lampoon the genre, and I hadn't seen like these real comedy horrors, other than, you know, the scary movies, but something more akin to Abbott and Castor will meet Frankenstein and those crossover movies where you have two Doofy comedy characters and and they're in the middle of this of a horror film of, you know, genre they have no right being in but somehow, when they are, it's a lot of fun. And that is sort of been the path I've had and and more recently, I got into the trauma now podcast, which was simply Lloyd, appeared in one of the Cesar nada films and and I saw him at a convention, and I said, Lloyd, who's Do you have a podcast? You know he? He knows me, even though at first he was like, Who are you? I said, I'm Dave. I directed you. You remember, Oh, God, Dave, I'm sorry, sir. And he said, there's nobody, there's nobody. We want to do one, but there's nobody doing it. I said, I want to do one. We'd really want to do your podcast. I think I could, you know, we can have some fun. And he said, Yeah, talk to Levi. He gave me, like, some contacts. And then we wound up. We wound up making this thing happen, you know, basically, they give me a little bit of notes before each episode, and then I send them final product. They approve it, they put it up. And they've never yet denied an episode I've done, you know, meaning I could be like, Hey, we don't like this, you know, because I, I tease trauma a lot in the podcast, and they're always game with whatever, and that they've been a wonderful company to to collaborate with, you know, just because of the freedom that they give you. And coming next year, you know, like, you know what? I'm hoping it sounds like Lloyd's going to be the first guest of the new year, and possibly two part episode. So we will, we will see about time you got him on there, it's his podcast.

Dave Bullis 17:02
Yeah, I was gonna say it's, it's kind of like, Where the hell is he?

Dave Campfield 17:06
Like, there's a fun board game. Where's Lloyd? Yeah, yeah, he's wearing the striped shirt and the glasses over in the corner in the adult bookstore. So he's, yeah, he's, he's set to come on, and there's, I haven't actively been making films since I've done the podcast. And as a matter of fact, I had another show that I was hosting, and I had to go on hiatus while I while I made the film, while I made my last feature. So it is definitely difficult to juggle podcasting and filmmaking. It is because, like, if you're doing, if you're filmmaking, you're taking, wearing a lot of hats, you tend to, you tend it tends to become your life, you know, for that period of five months, six months or a year.

Dave Bullis 17:53
Yeah, it's so true. And just trying to get everyone's schedule to sync and all that good stuff, that's why I now, I focus more my writing. I when I say I haven't made anything since I started this podcast, that means I haven't actually produced anything. You know what I mean, other than just just focusing on this and sort of trying to get some stuff off the ground and just him just to make it, but, but next year, I'm dead set. I'm actually, I was actually gonna make something this year, and just kept getting pushed back. Just, we got a day, yeah, I know, right. I got a data to come up with this. I actually was next year. I actually I've already, like, put the groundwork in now, because I haven't made anything like, I haven't directed anything in a long time, just because of, you know, Oh well, I mean people who've listened this podcast. No, I've talked about ad nauseum, but, but basically, I want to start doing something next year and just getting back on the horse, so to speak, or getting back on the wagon or off the wagon, or whichever wagon is, but, but you're making just making sure I'm actually doing stuff now, Dave, I just want to actually backtrack just a second here, because you mentioned something that I really took note of, which is that the college you went to doesn't exist anymore. Did it just lose all its funding and it couldn't operate anymore?

Dave Campfield 19:03
No, apparently I did it. You know, I went there and they're like, Man, when it's what close the doors in this place. And I it was, it was, it was a small school. I was one of the 1000 students that went there. And I think some of these privately funded schools sometimes have a hard time staying afloat unless the, you know, the tuition is egregious, and, you know, and it was, and so I, you know, I had been out there 10 years, but when they, when they closed, and, you know, funny is like the college, like, was military barracks at one point. So it was like World War Two. It was rather was rather our mess hall, or what do you call our London was originally like military barracks from the Second World War. I'm like, this is a hell of a place to go to school. So I think they just, it actually just became another college. They just, you know, gave it a cosmetic gloss, and turned into another school with less of an emphasis. On film.

Dave Bullis 20:11
You know, with this whole stuff about college and stuff like that, you know, I remember when there were a couple years ago, sweet Briar College in Maryland was going to close. And Mark Cuban actually said, See, this is the beginning of the start of the college apocalypse, where all these small colleges are going to close. And I think he's absolutely right, like, so once he So, I actually looked at all the college closings for like, the past like 20 years, and like, the most I think I ever saw, like on that line, I think was, like nine or 10, but like, even the college I went to, I had an awful college experience, by the way, and I just, I still don't understand, you know, why I even went to college, but, and I still, you know, everyone tells you you have to have that degree. And

Dave Campfield 20:56
I worked for one year, Dave, so that's, that's my whole college experience and the rest of the time, and I left specifically to pursue this and do it on my own. So my mind's not a traditional college experience, it's a very short one.

Dave Bullis 21:09
But that's the smart idea, though, is go honestly, man, I've known people who've gone for a day. I've known people who've gone for a year or two, and then they said, Look, this isn't for me. Like I don't get it, like I struggled through, you know, all the fluff, bullshit classes and got out the end, got that degree, and then you find out it means absolutely nothing. So it's like, you know, what was the point of all that? So, you know, because if everyone has a bachelor's, then what does it actually mean? So it's almost like, and then, now, you know, anyways, I'm gonna get off on top of a higher ed anyway. So, so what happened, so with that, you know, I have actually, so, so when you actually were going to pitch, and when they talked about, you know, things like, you know, hey, you know, we want something familiar, you know, I, you know, I have a friend of mine who actually pitched a different way. And what he does is, when he goes into business meetings, he just says a lot of business buzzwords, and it's worked out damn well for him.

Dave Campfield 22:06
Well, I'll tell you this much Dave are you still there? It sounded like there was a little blip.

Dave Bullis 22:12
No, I'm here.

Dave Campfield 22:13
Okay, so number of years ago I was in California when, when we were on the same pitch, and by the way, that's these were for, this was for a different movie. The film in a pitch to to new line. But when we were on California, we we got together with another friend who got a million dollars, and he was saying that his whole method of of securing this money is he would go into a meeting. He was, he was a scam artist, not that he didn't deserve the money, but like his methods were like, what he's gonna have his friend buzz him on the cell phone in the middle of the meeting and say that he has to take the calls it's from another investor. And he had all of these little methods planned that would make the investors think that he's more important that he is. And so sometimes there's tools of manipulation that are that are used. But I've never been that guy. I really would like to think of myself as on the level realistic with who I am, what I'm capable of and and that's it, not trying to turn myself into something I'm not. And for a lot of people, that's how they get their money. You know, if I feel like I wasn't, I couldn't do something terrific, then I don't deserve it. And, you know, I continue with that philosophy in mind. And if it pays off, wonderful, and if it doesn't, whatever, I'm still the person that I am, and I'm still moving forward and making films and and, you know, even if something is like, this is a great experience, just doing podcasts and making indie films is nice. And hopefully you get that opportunity, like I was telling you before we started recording that I I was interviewed for a History Channel hosting gig, and it was a program, and that was as a result of staying the course. You know, I have a friend of mine who's who's done very well, and he says, I like what you do, and I want you to co host a program with me. I want you to audition to co host with a foreign edition with me before a show that I'm gonna be hosting. Had I not been doing what I've been doing, that opportunity wouldn't come through. So a lot of times you have to stick to your gun, if it's what you really believe in, be willing to to not do well, but learn along the way and see where it all takes you. And as a matter of fact, that show did happen. And whereas I wasn't the co host, I was involved with it, and I had to like I had to, like it was one of the reenactors or whatever. This is cool. This is all bigger than the stuff I've done and and it leads that led to more opportunities. So that's why, if you really believe in it, you gotta stick to your guns.

Dave Bullis 24:56
Yeah, it's I find that. You know. And as we talk about just going forward with the podcast and talk about, you know, making movies at the same time, I find that you have to keep that momentum going. Because if you stop, it's way too easy just to lose sort of track of everything, lose sight of everything, and then suddenly you're like, oh, shit, didn't I want to do this by now? You know what I mean? And it just it's kind of, you got to keep that. You got to keep on that as best as you possibly can.

Dave Campfield 25:22
I've been working on one script called awaken the Reaper for about on and off for about 10 years. So like and it started off as just a fairly generic horror film with a couple of cool twists, maybe, and has evolved into something extremely personal. And I don't think I've ever done anything this personal, and that's what I've been working on, really, for the last year, trying to get, you know, like, fairly full time sure, to get this off the ground and find the proper budget for it. Because these c's are not a comedy movies I've done, they've they've done for, you know, between six and $10,000 and I can't do this anymore. I can't do films. I mean, they're, they're, they're wonderful experiences for the most part, but I can't keep doing films for so little money where I'm getting criticized primarily because I don't have money. It's an incredibly insulting there's faith insult to be criticized for. I have to show what I'm more capable of on a bigger budget, because you're with with a bigger budget, you just have higher production values, you have more tools to play with, you have a wider palette to paint from. And so what started off as this generic film just really became the story of me and how the story, hopefully, of all of us, where we get to a lot in life, we get into a place where we feel stuck, and you feel like you can't move forward, and you feel like every day is you're not moving forward, and and you're you're regretful of past and afraid of the future. And that's, I think, where a lot of us are, and, and and I want to tell that story about sort of getting out of the way of your own fear within the context of a very thought out horror film. And if, if I can make this work the way that I'm imagining and hoping for, if I could touch people on a human level with us. It'll make for a really unique car experience, because it's rare that a heart touches you on a human level and and feels real. And that's what I'm hoping for, and maybe in in 2018 we're really get to make this happen. We'll, we'll find out,

Dave Bullis 27:37
Yeah, you know, money is, is always that, magical thing. But, you know, I always, you know, now I'm sort of working with the other way, where I'm trying to sort of build up where, you know, I build up again, as we talk about the past, you know, I'm trying to build it up again to the point now where, you know, if I, when I do go to an investor, whatever, I actually have a body of work that's more recent, and I think that's what, that's an advantage you have. Again, here's your business term, unfair advantage. You know, what's, what's the unfair advantage? And I think that's yours. Is not only that, you have the podcast, and also you have the body of work. And you could say, Hey, I look, I've made this for a few $1,000 you know, imagine what I could do for 50 you imagine what I could do for 100 and, you know, everything would still be profitable.

Dave Campfield 28:22
Well, profitable is harder and harder to accomplish these days. You just do the best that you can. And I've aligned with them. Wild eye releasing has been a wonderful company for me, and I do a lot of work for them. They've released my last couple of movies. They just released my compilation pack, if you the holiday horrors, the holiday hard horrors DVD, if you typed it in, that's all of my Caesar and auto comedy horror films, which they just re released. And I've been able to to to work and work on other indie films and do some a bunch of stuff for them. And I've gotten to a point where, you know, my films make something back then don't necessarily make their budget back, but it shows you how difficult, in this day and age with with so many movies being made, how challenging it is to make a profit, but it can be done. It can be done.

Dave Bullis 29:16
Yeah, and that's something too, that I talked about too on this podcast with all with a ton of other guests, is that, you know, with so many movies being made, how do you stand out? You know? How do you stand out in any which way, shape or form, and how do you get your movie seen now? So that sort of becomes the new, you know, how the distribution method and the marketing for that distribution method, let's just say I decided to make a movie. I put it on YouTube for the hell of it. I make a movie this weekend. You and I make a movie. Dave, there's one one day left in in 2017 so let's make a movie. And you and I make a movie, and we decided just to throw it on YouTube. It's a short film. And you know what we just say, let's just keyword the hell out of it. Let's just hope for, you know, somebody discover, you know, let's just hope I'm sorry. Let's, let's play Word. Let's just use it as a plan of long tail keywords. And that, you know, as longer it's up there, the more chance it has of being discovered. And we just sort of use that method, and hopefully somebody stumbles upon it again. I keep saying, hopefully I don't, I don't like that word. Hope you know what I mean. It sounds too much like blind faith, but we know what I'm saying. Like, that's, that's the the way of distribution, of marketing, and there's, but there's 1000 other ways to do it. It's all about trying to get a movie scene.

Dave Campfield 30:39
Well, you know, the the most successful person that I worked with on YouTube was a actress named Lauren Francesca. She

Dave Bullis 30:46
Oh, yeah, I know her.

Dave Campfield 30:46
Oh she had a little cameo in one of my films, and I was pretty friendly with her for a couple of years there. We did a lot. I wrote and directed and co starred. Knew a bunch of videos for her, but I found what, I think the key to his her success was that she understood YouTube better than I know, that anybody better than anybody I know, like in she would show me science of it and keywords and this and that. So it's two things, you know, do you have the content, and do you know how to market yourself? And I made a film that should have gone, I think, gangbusters on YouTube, like, because it was sort of made for YouTube, and it did okay. Like, people really seem to respond to it, but not that many people have really seen it overall, and it's because I don't understand YouTube that well. Look at piggyzilla, P, I, G, G, Y, Z, I, L, L, A, you like Godzilla? Do you like guinea pigs? Piggyzilla. And it's, you know, like a bunch of two minute shorts, and they and I thought it would be more of a hit on YouTube, because it's sort of made for it. It's short, silly, it's got animals. So

Dave Bullis 31:48
I'll link that in the show notes, by the way, Dave, I actually just looked that up real quick, so I will link to that in the show notes, everybody, so we can all check out piggyzilla. But no, but the but like, I understand what you mean about like, stuff like that, because I actually, I you know, I've, as I've gotten more to YouTube. I actually have a friend of mine who who runs one of the top YouTube channels, not like, it's like, the top one percentile, and unfortunately, he doesn't do much with it anymore. And I've always said, like, give it, you know, give it to somebody who could actually use it, and he, he just won't, won't give it up. I mean, it just kind of sits there rotting away, which is,

Dave Campfield 32:24
How often does he post videos?

Dave Bullis 32:28
Not very often at all. And by that, I mean, like, probably once every six months at most. And I mean, like, I mean, honestly, I've had him on the podcast, and we actually talked about that. And it's kind of like this where, you know, he wants to it, he wants to make content for it, but once, maybe a certain kind of content, and this, it takes time to make that content, and then it's just, it's everything sort of keeps going into the back burner. So it's one of those situations and but I keep telling him, I said, you know, you could be making a pretty good amount of money every month from this thing, if it was just constantly have being the monster was,

Dave Campfield 33:07
Of course, there are people who make livings off of YouTube and make pretty good livings off YouTube, and that's like, to me, unfathomable, but it can be done, you know. So by all means, there's the reason, tell you the truth, the advantage of doing the Troma Now podcast instead of the Dave Campfield podcast is that I come out on their channel, and they already have a built in in fan base, and I know their content, and I like them personally. So you know, teaming with with somebody who's already established themselves and given them product that they're that they like, is always a win, win.

Dave Bullis 33:42
Yeah, yeah. And also, too, when you do the trauma now podcast, it's, you know, it's branding and and honestly, I that's so important, because, you know, people know what trauma is, you know, maybe I would go back and I change the name of this podcast, because, like, guys like Alex Ferrari, who have the indie film hustle podcast, you know, any film hustle just kind of rolls off the tongue, and you kind of can envision what it is. You know, you hear my name, you hear this podcast like, what the hell? Who the hell is Dave Bullis? And two, I don't even care who he is. So

Dave Campfield 34:09
It's, it's, it's a reverse. It's almost like that guy, just once you've done a podcast with a brand name, then you've got your own name. Because what would Lloyd be without trauma came and then people knew Lloyd. So it's sort of like you have to come up the brand name. Up the brand name, and then you get known for your brand name.

Dave Bullis 34:26
Where were you three years ago when I was doing this?

Dave Campfield 34:31
Call it the bullets. Your name sounds like bullets, right? You got to use bullets, film, bullet, film. And, you know, like, it's just something, something, bullet, cause unit, you had a cool kind of you got a cool edge to your name. So, oh, thank you absolutely. And, yeah, let me just have to too late. Now, Dave, you gotta, you gotta stick to the Dave Bullis podcast. So,

Dave Bullis 34:53
Yeah, no, we're 100 and, well, actually, we're over 200 episodes. Now you're 198 but we've actually recorded the other. They're a couple. So now we're equal, yeah, you're, you're actually, yeah. So the Met to the magic of podcasting, you're actually the prequel to the sequel, which hasn't released yet.

Dave Campfield 35:11
Wow, we're shooting at a sequence here. I like it,

Dave Bullis 35:15
Yeah, yeah. Just like a movie. We're shooting at a sequence. Oh, man. It just, you know, and for everyone listening, you know, if you're going to start your own podcast, if I, if I could just give you a really quickly before we get to talking about, you know, Dave and all the stuff he's up to, I want to just say, if you're going to start a podcast, here's my recommendations for right now. The name has to really be unique. The it has to, you know, roll off the tongue and but it also has to do with so people can, when they hear it, it envisions what they're going to be listening to. The format has to be, you know, obviously around the around an idea of what the core of this is going to be. And you can make it short, you can make it long, as long as it's always in tune with that idea. And, I mean, there are some podcasts I listen to that are five minutes, and it's like, that's exactly how long this should be. And there's podcasts that I've listened to that are, you know, an hour, hour and a half, and that's exactly how long that should have been, because they're, they're telling, like, a murder mystery, you know what I mean? Like, there's story type podcasts where, which have gotten pretty popular on, like, you know, my American life, and NPR and all that good stuff, and then, and then you have the other stuff. So always, you know, because I think the interview podcast, I think we've kind of reached, like Max interview podcast, even though this is an interview podcast, but like, you know, Mark Mara's, WTF, Adam corollas, you know, Joe Rogan's podcast, I think that the more you can stand out, the better it is. But I think the reason you stand out, Dave is, again, you have that unique angle, again, unfair advantage of going with trauma. And also, you know, you sound like a radio host, like I, like I said before the pre interview.

Dave Campfield 36:50
Thanks. Why? Thank you, Dave. Maybe I should push it a little more and become the the exaggerated radio host. But I was gonna say that when you talk about Marc Maron and a lot of these guys just gets, got started on the when the when it was beginning, when podcasts were really beginning. They got in then if Mark Maron tried to come out of nowhere right now, maybe he wouldn't have that luck. He probably wouldn't, to tell you the truth. So it has a lot to do with when he started. He sort of pioneered the, you could say podcasting in general. So as one of the first he, you know, he thrived. So it's almost like we have to for we have to see where the next evolution in in media is going to be and get in on the ground level, you know, which is what a lot of these guys did. They saw where the industry was going, or at least took a gamble on it and got it at the right time. So, yeah, that was a million podcasts. Now there's a million podcasts. It's very, it's harder for us to stand out.

Dave Bullis 37:50
Yeah, very, very, very true, man. It is just getting in that ground floor, then just dominating the industry, or just dominating that niche. You know, when marron started, it was just in its early days, and now he's up to what like over 1000 episodes. And you know, the same thing with like Joe Rogan and Adam Carolla. And that's why, when a new podcast comes out, they usually have a ton of marketing money behind it, like what some of these other podcasts that have done well are doing is because they just have a ton of marketing and they don't market that to the traditional way, because, again, that would be foolish. They are. They market specifically on social media. They market. It's all direct marketing. It's no more. It's like there's hardly any permission based marketing anymore, and it's all basically, you know what I mean. So, so

Dave Campfield 38:32
I want to tell you something that my friend Ethan Wiley, who he's a filmmaker, has made a lot of fun films you might have seen before. He made, made house movies one and two. He made children of the corn five. He's done a lot of things, and he told me, the problem with host these things is that it's almost like having a billboard in the jungle. It's like you're surround. No one will see it, you know, no one will know it's there, because there's so much around us, and it's hard in a world where where, you know, one out of 10 people, and make it a guess what, like, so when people have podcasts, how, how do you get seen? You know, I have another podcast that I do occasionally. I've done one episode called production hell, and that's all about the trials and tribulations of indie filmmaking, like really getting to the nightmare stories of what couldn't go wrong and what has gone wrong on film sets. I made one episode, and it's, you know, it's not even at 100 listens, you know, because there's nothing you know. I don't promote it, but it's nothing you know. No buzzwords that people are tapping into. People aren't finding it. So, you know, therefore I stick with the trome Now podcast until, uh, until people really get a sense of, you know, my style, and hopefully check out whatever else I do.

Dave Bullis 40:03
I like that, by the way, production hell, that's that is a really good, good idea for a podcast.

Dave Campfield 40:09
It's on SoundCloud, Panda one episode.

Dave Bullis 40:12
It's almost like, you know, be a good podcast is something like that, where you have like, two people who fell out during the filming of a film, like, I'd like the director, producer, or the two directors, or whatever, and you bring them on there, and you almost use that as, like a kind of, like a film court, where each guy gets to tell the side of the story. That would be interesting, man, because there's 1001 things that I you know what I mean, like on film sets where I've had people draw, like, friendships have ended on a film set. You know, I've had people on this podcast where one has the audio, one has the video. You know, even you know what I mean, stuff like that. That would be, yeah,

Dave Campfield 40:48
I have, I have somebody I knew in college who pulled a knife on on his production assistant, or something like he so things have, things have gone down seriously wrong.

Dave Bullis 41:00
Why is it he pull a knife on him or her?

Dave Campfield 41:05
It was her, to my understanding, there was a fight about and probably maybe it was an assistant director. So one was a director, and assistant director was probably saying that she's leaving. She doesn't think this makes sense. She doesn't want to do it anymore. And apparently that was, this is bad. This is as bad as a film argument can go so there are countless stories about all of the things that can go wrong. And also I have countless stories about things that could have gone right if things were just have happened a little bit differently, like, I'll tell you, I'll tell you this story, and maybe we'll, I'll leave it at this years ago when I think when I was was 19 and I dropped out of college and making my own film, and a friend of mine is doing boom mic on a on a little indie film in New Jersey, and he's telling me he's got my script, and he's pitching it. He's showing it to a couple people on the set, and they responded to it. I'm like, okay, cool, cool, cool. Cool. And tells me about one actor that sounds promising. You know, I really think you'd be good in this role, but I'm talking to this other guy. He's not really big yet. Like, okay, but he seems to like the script so far. He says, Wow, this is dark. And like, Okay, tell me who is he rent this film. And I had, he had me rent this film, the little cameo in little comedy from Universal literal and like, I don't know if this guy's really right for anything in this movie. He's like, totally it does a total disconnect, though. I don't, yeah, don't worry about pursuing him. I don't think it's a good match. That actor's name was Ben Affleck, and I closed the door on Ben Affleck before he became benef elect. And the film that they were shooting was Chasing Amy. Now, the one that really defined him, and the film that I looked at it from his was mall rats. If you look at him in mall rats, you know, it's very particular. He's not at his best, and he's not, he didn't, he's not what he became. He's fine, but, you know, there was no role for him. So, I mean, if I said, Yeah, this guy's great. I mean, it probably would have fallen apart anyway, because you would have gotten too big, and, like, you know, we would have lost touch, like, so same thing that happened with my New Line Cinema experience, but, but still to think beneflec was reading my stuff and saying, this is cool. I like it, and before he became famous is pretty funny.

Dave Bullis 43:23
Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's the door that's out of the door to close. You know, it's just funny with mall rats. I remember that Kevin Smith told a story about mall rats when he showed it to rob Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino, and he said, you know, what do you guys think? And they were like, oh, you know, I think you went a little too much. I mean, he said, both of them just kind of looked dejected. And then when he made Chasing Amy, he said, both, I'm like, All right, now you found your mark again. Great. Good job. Yeah.

Dave Campfield 43:52
Once, once, one is like, true, Kevin Smith and the other one sort of like Kevin Smith throwing a piece of Studio, you know, where you sort of lose your core like it, lose your uniqueness, your distinctness. And, you know, it's great that he got to tell you the truth. I think up the game, you know, from, you know, clerks was very raw and very true to Kevin's style and voice and mole rats was sort of, I guess, diluted, sort of like, Hey guys, you like this, and then chasing Amy's kind of like a more mature, not that mature, but more mature, version of his, of his voice. And, you know, you see, you know, terrific evolution. And I met Kevin Smith. It was the funniest. It was most bizarre circumstance, because I really so badly wanted him to see a seat like one of my Cesar Otto films, because he could think, Wow, this is akin to Jay and Silent Bob in their own way, like and and so I had been trying to get in touch with them. I tried emailing. Nothing worked. Nothing worked. And one day, I'm on a flight to California to do some reshoots on Cesar Anatos did the xmas and I looked at my right and son of a bitch, he's coming out of the airport terminal. He's, he's, he's going through bag. He's going through he's putting his his stuff on a conveyor belt. I see a hockey jersey, a beard and a baseball cap on backward. I'm like, That's fucking Kevin Smith. I've got some like, what do I do? And I had my I had my summer camp massacre movie, my bag like, and I heard him recently talk about sleepaway camp, like, on a podcast, and he was in my film summer camp spoof. Sleepaway camp has got the actors from sleepboy camp. My good friend Felicia rose, she's she's in there. Like, okay, so I was sashay over to him, and I say, Can I pay you a compliment? He's like, Yeah, sure, man, I want you to know I You're probably the best verbal storyteller I've ever heard my life. I was like, Oh, thanks, man. You know, I'm no I'm no gene Shepherd, he says, because, you know, I always thought that verbal storytelling is the my best gift, because God knows my films ain't worth a shit. Like, oh, my God, look at this modesty for success story, a pure success story. And, and at one point I say to him, I you like the film, sleepaway camp, Ryan wrote that 80 slasher film. He says, Yeah, sleepover camp a girl with a face. And I said, I have I made a spoof of that film, and I use the same actress? Is it? No shit, man. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I have in my bag. You want it? Sure, man, I wrote up in my bag. I'm like, oh, like, oh, like, oh, my god. I can't believe this is going so well. And I remember my bag, and I hand to him. It was just like, just released and shrink wrapped and and I said, you know, like, if you ever had a chance to see it, you know, just email me, let me know what you think. Ah, you know. And so we gave it to him. A few weeks later, I my friend tells me he hears on a podcast that he mentioned the whole interaction, and on this mod cast the episode called cannabis, he's talking about, like, how he was in an airport and ran into a guy that was because they were talking about sleepaway camp, and, like, he just retold the whole experience. So, like, wow. Like, he remember, I don't think he ever saw the movie, because I later heard him say that people give him stuff all the time, and it goes into a pile of stuff he'll watch one day when he when he's sick. So it's somewhere maybe in the middle of that pile, by that point, you know, like, you know, you're always growing as a filmmaker. So it'd be like looking at somebody's earlier, really early work. So that's, and incidentally, that film summer camp, which you can see on YouTube, but like, it was put on YouTube legally through the first distributor, was the first movie of an actor named Trey Byers. I cast him like, I like this guy. He was an Italian it was an Italian role, but this actor is African American. He's got great personality. He's got a great presence. Liked him a lot. Now, Trey stars on Empire. So I have this, I have this ability of, like, casting people in their first role, and they come and become famous, and then I never talked to him again, because Peter scan of, you know, my first film, uh, dark chamber. He stars on law and order now. So I basically my films, my first two films cast one of the stars of law and order, and when the stars of empire, and I'm still a nobody,

Dave Bullis 48:07
Well, there you go. You find people who are going to become big. So that's that's your gift, Dave. So that way I want to encourage every actor now just to shoot you the their headshot and everything else, and then you can find out, no, I'm just kidding. But, no, no. But seriously, that is cool though. You see, you meet people before they become big, and you can't see it again because we're on a podcast. But I actually have a Kevin Smith fig a podcast figure. I actually saw it one day. It was like on sale, and I decided to get it. So it's actually him with the beard. It says Puck, you on there, and he's got a microphone in his hand. And it's actually just sits in front of my desk here. It's one of my three figures in front figures in front of me. But it's just really, really cool that you got to meet him like that.

Dave Campfield 48:46
Yeah. I mean, of all, it was almost like, I would say it's divine intervention, except for nothing came out of it. So, but other but he did plug, he did, he did mention it on the on the podcast. So it was, it was a little gift from heaven, you could say. So was there any there anything else that you wanted to touch on regarding, because I know, like, if you really talk to somebody, it's a podcast that goes on forever, and people are on the basis for that. But was there anything that that else you were interested in terms of what I was up to?

Dave Bullis 49:16
Well, just, just, you know, well, two things I know. I know we are running out of time, but just two things before we before we sort of say goodbye, just just creating, you know, Caesar and auto, and just making films that you do right now. You know how? You know. So basically, you know, you had to have a time frame. You'd have all this stuff in play. So, you know, where a lot of these films, you know, when you were starting out, did you did you self finance, like, the first couple of season autos, and then you shot it, and then you just started shopping for a distributor. And, I mean, now, do you have, like, sort of, like a set plan in place, like, they come, they say, Hey, Dave, you know, are you making something else that we can just put, you know, just put out

Dave Campfield 49:54
The first season auto film came about this way So when I when chakaroma released dark chamber, Mike Rosso, the head of the company, asked if I had any, if I had anything else that I was working on and I said I had this film awake in the Reaper. And he said, no, that sounds serious. I want a comedy, comedy horror. And I said, a thought occurred to me. I had made a $700 feature film called Caesar and Otto, and it was just about us to do full, you know, characters now is instantaneously imagined, like an avid castella made Frankenstein. What if I put them in? I put them in horror film? Okay, so, and then I was spitballing right off the top of my head. So, Mike, what about, you know, Cesar nano in horror film? Maybe, like a summer camp film, you know, I know the star sleep boy camp, maybe I can talk her into this. And it's, you know, Cesar nano and a summer camp massacre, and, and, and he says, Write it. I took 30 days. I wrote it, and they, he, they approved it. They gave me a little bit of money to make it. And then by the time that it was made, like I showed a rough cut. We love this. And then by the time it was to release it, like the it was the DVD implosion, where everything they were selling was less and less, especially comedies. And by the time they were releasing it, it's like, Dave, the whole market's falling apart. They had released a few comedies back to back, and they all, they all lost money. It says, so I don't know what, really, what we're gonna do with this. We might shelve it for now, put it on a compilation DVD. Like, here's your money back. I'm going to find another home. And I, you know, that's what we did. I found another home for it. It did better than chakarama would have anticipated. And then from that distributor, I went to another one we did in deadly Xmas, which was, you know, finance between a friend of mine and I and and then lastly, with paranormal Halloween. It was mostly funded through Indiegogo. You know, at that point, there had been enough traction from previous films to give the audience an idea of what, what they were going to get and and, you know, I offered a lot of perks that I think they enjoyed, and that helped as well.

Dave Bullis 52:20
Yeah, yeah. And so that's kind of, you know, again, like you sort of, as I was touching on the beginning this podcast, you have that that is almost like a method or plan in place where, you know, you can do the podcast, you get your name out there still, and then you're still doing the films. And I think that's important now, is you have to have a, almost like a pre existing fan base, you know, was new. I mean, with a lot of this stuff now, because if you just go out cold, it's kind of, it's a lot harder to only be make people aware of it, but also just to sort of get the attention of, you know, the right people.

Dave Campfield 52:50
Well, my fan base is small, but intense. I mean, I can rattle them off on on two hands, so, you know, like, named by nips, but, but it's, you know, it's helpful. It's very helpful that they're out there to, you know, to champion this stuff and and without them, I probably wouldn't be able to do any of this, really.

Dave Bullis 53:10
Yeah, it's, like they say, 1000 true fans. That's all you need.

Dave Campfield 53:18
Well, it's less than that. Maybe one day here, one day 1000 was good.

Dave Bullis 53:21
So Dave, just in closing, I know we've been talking for about 50 minutes now, but just in closing, is there anything we didn't get a chance to discuss, or anything that you want to say right now, just to put a period at the end of this whole conversation,

Dave Campfield 53:33
Follow me on Twitter. I'll be doing an interview with Lloyd coming up. So if you have a question you would like me to ask Lloyd no at me and bro, hopefully bring it up and yeah, just, you know, you could see my work at IMDb, get an idea of what I worked on. If you have any questions, you know, anybody getting me up on Facebook? I'm always receptive to answering questions and all of that.

Dave Bullis 53:59
And I will link to all that in the show notes. Everybody everything that Dave and I talked about @davebullis.com Twitter, it's @dave_bullis. The podcast is at DB podcast. David Campfield, I want to say thank you so much for coming on man,

Dave Campfield 54:11
One last thing you called me. David Campfield,

Dave Bullis 54:15
Oh, wait, did I say oh, man,

Dave Campfield 54:17
No, no, that's not a that's not a problem. But get this, it's an uncommon name, clearly, David Campfield, Dave Campfield, these are not everyday names, not John Smith. There's another David Canfield out there who wants to be an actor. Son of a bitch. Both of us want to be actors. Both of us are actors. He was in movies. I was in movies. And it's very confusing. So if you IMDb David Campfield, you get him, you IMDb Dave Campfield to get me. And when it comes to unions, it gets even more confusing. All right, you could take David. I could take Dave. So there's another David Campfield out there, and he's an actor of all things. I can't believe it. So yeah, we're friends with each other. I.

Dave Bullis 55:00
Oh, that's good, because there's another Dave Bullis out there, and he actually has a Twitter Dave Bullis because I my Twitter's @dave, @dave_bullis so I said to him one day, I said, Hi, I'm Dave. And I said, Listen, I think we better for you if we just kind of like swapped Twitter names. And I said, you know, if there's something I could do to help you out, I said, because people were killing him. They were tweeting him all the time. And finally he, you know, he finally responded back, like, I'm not that Dave bulls, this guy. And finally he blocked me one day, and I said, like, I tried to help you out here. And like, he had like 20 followers. Now he doesn't even use Twitter anymore, and but, yeah, he ended up blocking me all because he got angry. People were tweeting at him looking for me.

Dave Campfield 55:42
Well, that's an impractical response. People, there's, there's, you know, there's at least 1% of the population. That's completely unreasonable. So he's one of those, so wonderful talking to you fellow Dave and podcasting. So hopefully we will, will be speaking again.

Dave Bullis 56:00
I'm sure we will, man, trust me, I I'm sure our paths will cross at some point.

Dave Campfield 56:03
But where are you from, by the way, what state?

Dave Bullis 56:07
I'm in Philadelphia, which is Pennsylvania.

Dave Campfield 56:09
Well, not too far. You know, I just edited a commercial for the Philadelphia Pet Expo. So coming up, you'll be able to see dogs and cats living together in mass hysteria. So actually, though, seriously, I do, I do some, I do some part time editing on the on the side, and editing, get Philadelphia pet expo was one of my gigs. That's, that's the fun thing about being a freelancer.

Dave Bullis 56:33
It's where. Oh, are you in Jersey?

Dave Campfield 56:35
No, I'm on Long Island.

Dave Bullis 56:36
Oh, Long Island. Okay, cool. So, so it is not something where you are, probably

Dave Campfield 56:41
No, you can let me know it is, oh, how it's snowing? No, I just as I said, I'm not kidding when I said I haven't looked out the window in the dark.

Dave Bullis 56:47
Oh, it's no problem. It's, it's, it's actually just stopped. Actually, during this podcast, the snow is actually stopped. It's not doing anything anymore. So probably don't my way, but I've already, I've already been outside many times already, just to push it all out of the way. So I'm gonna go do that now. So anyways, just keep just to get the rest of it out of here. So Dave, again, it's been a blast, and thanks again for coming on and Yeah, well, I'm sure we'll talk soon.

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BPS 431: How Tremors turned into a Masterclass in Storytelling with S.S Wilson

August 7, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There is a moment in every filmmaker’s life when the unseen becomes the spark—when what lies beneath the surface, figuratively or literally, begins to whisper its potential. On today’s episode, we welcome S.S. Wilson, a masterful screenwriter, director, and creative mind whose work reminds us that cinematic magic can erupt even from the dustiest corners of low-budget constraint. Whether you’ve laughed with Short Circuit or felt the rumble of Tremors, Wilson’s journey is one that stirs the creative soul.

S.S. Wilson is best known for co-creating the Tremors franchise and co-writing Short Circuit, yet his deeper legacy lives in how he approaches story: with reverence, structure, and devotion to the craft. In this wide-ranging conversation, he invites filmmakers to witness what it truly means to build a story from the inside out. He and his longtime writing partner Brent Maddock don’t chase ideas—they architect them. Their gospel? Outline everything. “We’re not comfortable until we know where it’s going,” Wilson shares. In a landscape where many chase spontaneity, Wilson reminds us that clarity of vision is a kind of sacred pre-production.

The Tremors films weren’t simply genre flicks—they were blueprints in filmmaking ingenuity. When the budget says no, the imagination must say yes. That’s why the monsters are underground for most of the film—not just to build suspense, but to bypass costly visual effects. “We knew sound was going to be critical,” Wilson says. “That’s part of why we picked underground monsters. You don’t have to see them… you have to feel them.” For filmmakers working with tight budgets, this is gold: design limitations into the concept itself. Make the unseen the story.

There’s a brilliant moment in the original Tremors where the creature is revealed incrementally—first a worm-like tendril, later the entire beast. That’s not just good horror. That’s good storytelling. Wilson orchestrates expectation like a symphony, pulling the audience forward with curiosity. And the characters—real people in an unreal situation—ground the entire thing. “Even the monsters follow rules,” he says. “We never change the rules just for a scare.” For any director or writer, that’s a North Star: consistency builds trust with the viewer. Break that, and the spell collapses.

Wilson and his team learned early that writers are often shut out of the process once the script is delivered. They decided they’d had enough of that. By pushing to become producers, they ensured the vision remained intact all the way to the screen. This wasn’t ego. It was stewardship. They built not just a film but an ecosystem of logic and love. No lazy tropes. No studio-fueled chaos. Just character, creativity, and continuity—from the first Graboid to the final Ass Blaster.

Today, Wilson writes novels, but his advice for filmmakers remains elemental. Don’t fall in love with your first idea. Don’t polish the same project endlessly. Make things. Learn from what you admire. And let go. “Write something. Get it done. Say goodbye to it. Write something else,” he advises. This isn’t just writing advice—it’s directing advice. Editing advice. Producing advice. Finish the scene. Finish the film. Then move on. What’s next will only reveal itself when you’ve cleared the space for it to arrive.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
My guest on today's episode has one of the most successful horror franchises of all time, whether you've seen the first tremors, or whether you've seen any of the other tremors, or even the TV series, or even the new TV series that's coming out. He doesn't have anything to do with the new TV series coming out, but still, it's based off of his, of his concepts. You know, there's a lot to be gleaned from this episode, because when they make tremors one, you know, they had to watch the budget because, so what do they do? Well, they put their monster off screen and underground, then at the right moment, they reveal, you know, it's revealed in stages and stuff like that. It kind of reminds me of Reservoir Dogs. Y'all, I was watching that again. Reservoir Dogs, you never see the bank robbery. And I think the main reason for that is it's not only a really nice creative choice, but also because it saves money. You know, when you're making these first movies, I you know, the creative choices have to rule the day. So again, this is what this was all about. You know, is making a monster movie where they can control the rights and, you know, keep everything under budget. So how do you do that? Well, we're gonna find out today with guest SS Wilson, Hey, Steve, thanks a lot for coming on the show, sir.

S.S Wilson 3:02
You're welcome. You're welcome.

Dave Bullis 3:02
So, you know, Steve, just to get started, I wanted to ask, what got you into the film industry. Was it, you know, did you like films, you know, growing up, or is it just sort of one of those things where one day you found yourself, you know, sort of writing screenplays or on set somewhere. Well, as it tends to happen, right?

S.S Wilson 3:23
My story is a little different. I did love films. I was huge film buff as a kid, and my dad supported that. And early on, when I was, I don't know, 10 or 11, he bought a eight millimeter camera, and I was one of those kids who made movies in the backyard. Tried to do special effects with gunpowder and gasoline, which he also supported interestingly, you know. And then my dad, then when I went off to college, actually changed my life. I went off to college and said, I don't know what I should do. I guess I'll be a psychologist like my dad. That's what he was. And He came up after I'd been there a week or so. He said, you know, what are your courses? And I said, Oh, well, I signed up for and he said, this makes no sense. Even making movies in the backyard for 10 years. What's going on? And he went to my advisors, and he said, Do you have anything like film or movies or television? And he changed my whole course schedule. This is absolutely true, and I had never thought about actually trying to do it for a living, even though I've been making movies for years and years and doing stop motion animation. And then I, you know, never looked back. I went, Oh, well, yeah, because then, you know, then there were people in the departments we didn't have much of a film program at Penn State all those years ago, like two tele one television course and like, two film courses, and you had to borrow cameras from the local PBS station, whatnot, but, yeah, but that's what happened. And then I then I got drafted that I went to USC Film graduate school and and there met a lot of the people that I still work with. And. And even though it took almost 10 years from graduating USC to actually break in and make short circuit, we were working in the film business, making short films and little short animated things and films for schools and libraries, TV commercials and whatnot.

Dave Bullis 5:17
You know, it's funny, Steve, that your dad was able to change your whole curriculum because, you know, I actually used to work at a college, and grades and all that stuff were so secretive. They actually fired a professor one time because he told a student's father what he got in the classes as a final grade before the kid with the kid did. And they actually just fired the professor on the spot because of it. Wow, yeah, it's just, but, no, that just, it's funny, though, you know, it's funny how college has changed so much, but, but, you know, you went to Penn State, and, you know, I've actually, you know, been up there. I actually attended a Penn State football game. I didn't go there for college, but, you know, I've been there once, the lions, small world, right? And because you're out in LA now, right? I'm actually, I live in Arizona. Oh, okay, you know, I actually have a few friends out there.

S.S Wilson 6:09
I go to go to LA when, as needed,

Dave Bullis 6:13
I see So, you know, just to ask, does Penn State ever ask you to come back to me talk about screenwriting or directing or anything?

S.S Wilson 6:19
I've been bad. I It's funny, ironic timing. You know, they occasionally send me alumni stuff. I've never let them even know what I do. I should do that, but No, they haven't. They haven't tracked me. Now, they have no idea, you know, who I am or where. I was kind of an invisible student, geeky guy, and I just went through and left.

Dave Bullis 6:41
Well, I thought me they'd have some kind of alumni, you know, sort of Headhunter who kind of kept track and all this stuff,

S.S Wilson 6:48
You know. But I have, I've never responded to any of it, so I really, actually have it on my desk as we speak. I said I should let them know. They probably would like to know.

Dave Bullis 6:57
Well, then you could just sit on this podcast. Instead, go back, just listen to this podcast. I'm talking to Dave. So you know, you brought up short circuit, by the way, I watched that movie religiously as a kid, by the way. So I want to ask you know about your whole writing style. I'm actually always fascinated by people's writing styles and their approach to their own art. So I wanted to ask you, Steve, how do you approach writing? You know, do you subscribe to any sort of methods? Do you do very long treatments first, or do you just sort of jump right into writing?

S.S Wilson 7:30
Brent and I, who have written practically everything together, at least, certainly everything has been made, and we've been working since the days at USC, both in the short films, and then we wrote short circuit, which was our big break. We have a very our approach is, is outline, outline, outline. We don't normally write a treatment for tremors. We did only because we were trying to sell it, and we couldn't sell it as a pitch for because, well, we couldn't, and that didn't, hence treatment didn't sell either, by the way. But let me go back so we outline in great detail. We are not comfortable until we know where the story is going. And we're very story oriented. Some people can start, you know, sort of with a character. Don't just say, oh, where's this character? And he's a drug addict and he's got these problems, and I'm just gonna think about what he does because he's a drug addict. We can't do that. We got to know where we're going. So and we can't really get excited about something until we know where we're going, even if it's a rewrite, which, you know, you get offered quite a bit in Hollywood, is pretty much all Hollywood does anymore. Even if it's a rewrite, we will sit down. Before we even say yes to a job, we'll say, Okay, we got to go through this movie figure out what we would change, or maybe they're telling us what they want changed. We got to be sure that we can make that work. And we got to know where it's going, because your ending is is so important in a movie, in our opinion. In fact, somebody well known. Maybe one of the Zucker brothers said your ending is 50% of your movie. Somebody said that. And we kind of believe that. So we got to know where we're going, what, what the surprises are, where the twists and turns are. So long answer to that question is, we outline like crazy. In fact, we used to drive studios crazy, and back in the day early on, when we were getting started, you used to get 12 weeks. Was a normal time to write a script, and we would outline for eight, and they'd be calling us him. So you're writing, or you're writing, well, now we're still out like, Are you out of your mind? But then we would write it in, you know, four weeks because it was done.

Dave Bullis 9:40
So, you know, you mentioned tremors when you finally started outlining, you know, did was there ever and sort of an impetus for that movie where you said, You know what this is, where we want to take it. So we, you know, you know what I mean. So we already know, you know what the monster is going to be, and we sort of know where the location is going to be. It's going to be a perfection. I. Was that a part of it, or did that sort of come in during the outlining phase?

S.S Wilson 10:15
Well, there again. We outlined it in great detail. Worked on it with Ron Underwood because the goal with tremors, was to become producers. We were frustrated that everything we had written up till then, we discovered naive, that we writers, that we were that writers aren't really welcome on this, but once you're done with the script, they don't want to hear from you again. And we would go to movies and that we had written and go, boy, that's that's not what I would have done. And our agent told us, but look, you guys want to produce, then you want control. And to get that, you're going to have to control the material from the get go. You can't be rewriting the studio's material. Blah, blah, blah. So she said, What do you have in your portfolio and your piles of notes? And we came up with. We came out of our piles of notes with. We got this underground monster idea, and she said, that's kind of cool. I've never heard of that before. And so first we sat down with Ron, and we outlined the whole story, figured out who the characters were, where it was going to go, and then we pitched it all over town. Couldn't sell it. And then she said, Well, that's maybe you should write a treatment road very detailed, like 25 page treatment did not sell, sent it to everybody. So she well, I guess you're gonna have to write it on spec. So in between, you know, the regular Hollywood movies we were writing, we were writing tremors on spec. And then took that all over town, and he was a huge our agent was a huge part of getting this done. She was central. We call her the mother of tremors. Nancy Roberts later, our partner in stampede entertainment, she hand picked, you know, who the script was gonna she did what an agent really is supposed to do. She handpicked who the script. She knew the studio people. She told us in advance what they were going to say. You know, there were, there were situations where, because of her relationships, there were certain times, if she had a spec script, she couldn't not show it to certain people, because then they would be mad that they were shut out of the prospect. So she said, Okay, this is going to be weird. I have to send this to Disney. They are going to stay we. We hate this because it's got so much dust in it. They had dust. And we're like, what? Sure enough, that's exactly what came back. And all of this was, of course, off the record, you know, under the wire. But I actually got off the phone, I think I was there at some point. No, no. She was on the phone to somebody at Disney, and they were passing a very in a polite way. Well, it's not, you know, right for us at this time. And she said, Come on, heisner doesn't like dust. It was on the other end. But that's all really true. And then she hand picked Jim jacks, wonderful, wonderful executive, classic, old school executive who who at Universal, who loved movies, loved all kinds of movies. Knew exactly what tremors was. He saw exactly it's B movie, monster movie, roots. And she knew that Jim would get it and he would fight for it at Universal, which is exactly what happened. And then she enlisted Gail and heard she was the one who brought Galen heard in, because Gail and looked at our buddy Ron's short movies, which is all he had at the time. He had not done a feature when we did tremors, and the studio was like, well, we're going to hand off this movie to a guy who's only directed films for schools and libraries. And Gail looked at the movies, fun guy's a filmmaker. Don't worry about it. And and then she shepherded us, especially at the beginning, you know, made sure we weren't going off the rails, some way to get her in trouble. As she was executive producer, she saw the dailies and said, Good, it's gonna work.

Dave Bullis 13:57
Yeah. You know, I really like tremors. I'm gonna tell you why, Steve, because, you know, first, it's, it just seems everything happens naturally. You know what I mean. It's, you know. Again, when you said you were, you started with characters that you know, when you were working with the idea, it's because, you know, all those characters seem like they they're real people who live in that world, and they all see, you know, and when they, you know, when some of them finally die. For anyone listening, I'm not who hasn't seen it yet. I'm not going to spoil it, but for anyone who's when they finally die, you know, you actually say, Oh my gosh. You know, there isn't a ton of guys you know, that are just getting mauled. These are the, all the the characters right here. So when they finally die, when not when some of them die, they go, Oh my gosh. You know that actually is impactful in the story. Thank you. It's those escalating circumstances, you know what I mean. And even with here, oh well, my you know, you're very welcome. And you know, and because when it when you see the worm for the first time, you think that's the monster, and then it becomes bigger, and you're always escalating that further and further and further. And it's always, you know, they find a solution. The problem escalates. They find a solution to. Problem escalates. I mean, that that's just, it's phenomenal. I don't know if you know who Red Letter Media is, but they actually are a popular online review group, and they actually gave it a you know, they actually have this one segment where they talk about movies they like, and they actually review tremors, and they they said it's one of their favorite movies.

S.S Wilson 15:18
So great. It's always to hear all of the things you're saying we worked very hard on they were all very important to us. We my partner is not a B movie monster fan. I saw them all up until the mid 70s or so. I saw everything, and I knew all the cliches we were playing with. My partner is just all about character. And again, in both of us, it was very important that, yes, the characters matter, that they seem, that the plot, things that happen, seem to come naturally out of the situation, and any of them, even the monsters, are consistent in what they do. You know, they don't change the rules. They don't suddenly become indestructible or anything like that.

Dave Bullis 16:02
And one other compliment I want to give you, too is the way that you constructed this with sound, because you only mean, like in the beginning when Earl and I forget Kevin Bacon's character, oh yeah, Val, yeah, Val, Earl and Val, when they're looking for, you know, the doctor, they're, you know, they're not yelling his name. They're just sort of walking around. And you can really, you know, they're hearing the planks walk, you hear the bucket kick, and you're, you know. And then you know, Val says, We know, where's that music coming from, you know what I mean? And you know. And it just, it always escalates with that sound. And then when you have Chang's drugstore, you have that, that that refrigerator, that always makes that noise, and then that causes, you know, further conflict. I mean, that's really, really good writing, and in using that audio for filmmaking,

S.S Wilson 16:47
Oh yeah, sound was, well, we knew sound was gonna be critical. We were a low budget movie, and we, and that's why we that's part of the reason we picked underground monster as one of the ideas that we decided to develop. We thought, oh well, they're underground most of the time. We'll never see them. Heaven knows, we had endless problems even, even though we, in theory, weren't seeing them. But we knew that sound was going to be critical. We had great sound people, you know. And it was, you know, years ago, people have asked me, you know, what? What is this bass sound of a Graboid? And sadly, I don't know. And I, you know, I've lost track of the people who invented that sound?

Dave Bullis 17:24
Yeah, you know, because for everyone that's seen the movie, know, that's that sound that they make, you know, and it's, you know, it just all ties in very well together. And everyone I'm going to link to tremors in the show notes to file Amazon or Best Buy, because it's right, it's totally recommended watching. I remember seeing tremors years ago, Steve, and it just blew me away. But see, and I didn't know what I was watching, because no, now, you know, I've studied filmmakers. I've studied this. When I go back now I can, I can sort of go through with a surgeon scalpel, and I can pick out all this stuff. Oh, this is why I found this so fascinating, you know what I mean, and this is why I found it so entertaining, so and then I get to talk to the guy who wrote it and you said, made it so. So now you could tell me how wrong I am. No, I'm just kidding. But no, no, it's just, you know, it's just, it's a phenomenal film, and that's why I'm so glad you know that the, you know, I got to see the franchise, you know, the mean, like tremors, two, tremors, three. You know, I know you guys. You did four as well, and you also did the TV series. And it was always great to see, you know, this sort of franchise expand and you know, so, you know, I always talk to, you know, my friends and always say, you know, some franchises, you know, they they sort of go this way. Some go that way, you know. I mean, Friday 13th Nightmare on Elm Street. But tremors always sort of kept it in perfection one way or another. Because there was always, You know what I mean, there was always a sort of reason why that, you know, you know, like, like tremors three, when it's called back to perfection, right? And that's where Melvin's creating that whole town, right? And that leads into the whole TV series. But it's just stuff like that, you know what I mean, that's, it's all comes organically,

S.S Wilson 19:00
Well, we, yeah, it was very important to us to make the world consistent. And it wasn't easy. You know, we never expected even to do tremors two that came along years later, only because of the success of VHS. You know, tremors one was not a huge hit. I mean, you know, Kevin big and reviewed viewed it as a flop, and he absolutely disowned it for many, many years, and it wasn't I flop, per se, but it, but it did not do nearly what the studio hoped it would do, and and they were disappointed. And so we were floored, and we got this call from video department who said, Hey, what about tremors? Two? He said, What about it? They said, we want it. What? So then we all had to sit down, because we were busy doing all kinds of other stuff at that point in our careers, and say, God, can we come up with the tremors too? And then, you know, then we said, well, all right, the big cliche is, there's a queen Graboid. And we all went, Okay, no way we're doing a queen grab we're not going to do it. And what do we do instead of that? And finally, I I'm gonna say it was me. I think it was me. I was driving along in the desert, as I often am, and I said, I wonder if they just turn into something small. How weird would that be? And then we ran with that idea,

Dave Bullis 20:23
Yeah. And I remember seeing that too, because that's when they were actually walking on land. I free, and I forget the name that in the movie that that the characters give them Shriekers, that's right, yeah. And then, because it's the third that they're called ass blasters, right?

S.S Wilson 20:37
Well, that's their third incarnation that gave us, that told us where to go with the third one. We thought, Okay, well, they'll change into a third form. And that at the time, again, it was really important to us to keep the characters consistent, the rules consistent, other than but, but still come up with surprises. You still can't, you can't just do the same thing over and over. So that's how we came up with the ass blasters and that I in fact, the effects guys, Tom Woodruff and Alex Gillis of amalgamated dynamics, were the ones who came up with ass blasters because they were, well, just as invested in we were in protecting their monsters and making them consistent. They have a wonderful design approach. It's very real world based volumes and volumes of books about animals and creatures and skin textures. And they literally came in one day and said, Hey, are you? Are you aware of the bombardier beetle? And we're like, No, we're not. They said, that's a beetle that mixes chemicals in its butt and makes us sound like a firecracker. We're like, that's a real thing, absolutely. And we we think that's what ass blasters should do. And we're like, we are totally on board with that, or something else. I was gonna say, oh, oh yes. And then we got thrown a curb by Universal because they said, Okay, tremors through definitely be the last one. There will definitely not be any more. We understand our market perfectly, and we know exactly how the DVD world works, and this is it. So we said, Okay, we'll wrap it up. That'll be, that's cool. We will say that this is the last form that creatures take. Boom. The end. Goodbye, perfection. And almost immediately was, well, no, we, we did really, much better than we thought. We must have tremors for,

Dave Bullis 22:15
Yeah, cuz I, you know, I actually saw tremors four. And I actually was kind of shocked because I thought, you know, because I was like, Oh, well, I didn't know they made another one. And, you know what? This is funny, Steve, you're, you know, as you could kind of tell him, a movie buff. I didn't even know you did a TV series. I actually didn't know you did a TV series until last year.

S.S Wilson 22:34
Well, it's easy to do. I mean, there's so much material now. There's a lot of stuff that I don't know. I mean, the stuff that's being, you know, I'm probably not even up on half of Netflix's shows and all this stuff. But anyway, I don't blame you.

Dave Bullis 22:47
Well, you because, you know, I'm such a movie head, and I'm always like, you know, looking for different stuff. And I said they did tremors TV series before, I said, Wow, I didn't notice that. So I actually, I actually bought it offline, and I actually went through and I was like, oh, okay, so it sets up. It's, you know, it's three into the TV series, and then four is a prequel. Yeah, you know, I have to ask, you know, when you make these tremor movies, Michael, gross, seems like the coolest guy in the world, is He? Is he the coolest guy in the world? Because, I mean, he just seems like he would just be an awesome guy to hang out with,

S.S Wilson 23:20
Yes, he's just a wonderful, funny intellectual, not full of himself, actor. He's very He's great on the set, you know, at understanding, you know, who has the scene. You know, he's not trying to steal other people's lines or anything. He's an actor's actor and and he's so he's become, you know, he became Bert. He took over Bert, you know, from us and and he would always on tremors two and three and four, even though he wasn't playing Bert. He would, he'd always come to this set with little pencil, delicately penciled lines in the script, and then he wanted to sit down, and we sit down with us before we met. He said, Okay, I got this idea for a change here and change here, and then we could go back and forth. It was, well, if you say that, then we won't know this. Oh, yeah, you're right. Never mind, never mind. But a lot of times, you know, especially with the bird character, he's he defends the character, and he loves it. I thought at some point, I thought he was going to get tired of it, but I always have to tell this quick story. You know, he was a huge television star. When he did tremors, one he had just finished years and years on family ties, playing a guy who could not be more different from Burt. And they asked us to read him, because he was a big television star, and they felt like that would help the movie. And we went read the Father on family ties. Okay, we'll do it because they want us to do it. Well, he blew us away. You know, he came in because he's an actor, and he completely just Ron tells us he was actually jumping up on his desk. At one point being showing how afraid he was of the monster underground. Anyway. Then some years later, Michael told me the story of walking down the street in New York and getting that look that fans get when they start to recognize you. And the guy was walking toward him, and he he sees the look, he knows the fan's gonna say it, and then the fan says, You're that crazy gun guy? And Michael said, Yes, I finally escaped family ties.

Dave Bullis 25:27
I thought you were going to say, Oh yeah, I was the down on family ties. Crazy gun guy. Yeah. You know, it's funny because I introduced a friend of mine two tremors, and he actually goes, Wait a minute, that's the dad from family. And I said, Yes, he's with the Heaton family, and I'm sorry, Keaton and Heaton. And I said, Yeah, you know. And he goes, Wow. He goes, this is a different role for him. And I said, Yeah. And I said, he fits it like a glove, because one of the my favorite shots of the whole movie is where Reba McIntyre and Michael Gross, or in their underground bunker, and the wall starts to shake, and they see the the Graboid come through, and they start to fire. They have those rifles, those uh, bold action rifles, and they're out of ammo very quickly. And the camera just pans over to the wall of guns. And they literally just are pulling guns off the wall. And, I mean, it's, it's so if, again, organic characters, and that fits so well, because I would actually be disappointed Steve, if they did not have a wall of guns.

S.S Wilson 26:29
Oh, he knew that was a key moment in the movie, and it was great at the premieres and at the test screenings. You know, the audience would, they would laugh through the next all the way through the next scene.

Dave Bullis 26:40
And, you know, it was, you know, a phenomenal and Tremors is definitely one of my favorite movies. And I think, you know, when I, when I go back to, you know, writing, writing my own stuff, you know, I always like to dissect movies that I've Well, I've watched, you know, and I like to dissect movies that I've really liked and, you know, and now, because this podcast, I get to talk to people who've who've written great stuff that I like. So, you know, it's just, it's, you know, it's just great being able to talk to you, Steve, and, you know, finding out these little interest in christicities, I think I just butcher that word, by the way, but, but, but, you know, and I want to ask, you know, Steve, you know you have such a great career. You know you did short circuit, batteries not included. Short circuit two tremors, as we all just talked about, I did Ghost Dad. You know, is there any sort of writing advice you could give to anyone listening who's writing a screenplay right now?

S.S Wilson 27:30
Well, if you like our style, and that's step number one, if you like the movies we've done, then do what you're doing. First of all, analyze the stuff you like. That's a lot of you know, pros, we'll call ourselves that would say that, because you won't be copying the stuff that you like. You'll be learning from it. You know, you you obviously understand setups and payoffs. For example, it's a big thing for me and Brent, setting something up early in the movie, having it pay off later in surprising way. Those are hard to do. It's hard to do those correctly and without cheating. And a lot of times you see movies cheat, I feel a little at odds with kind of the current movie making steam, giving anybody advice, because film after film that has no plot and makes no sense is wildly successful. And I've begun to wonder, you know, I rail at this, and I go, Oh, my day, and blah, blah, blah. And yet, you know, this is for years now I've been seeing this. I've started to think, oh, the audience has really changed. Now. I think the younger audience maybe does not care as much about what I think is important in storytelling. And they truly do enjoy these movies. You know, part of me says, well, they don't really enjoy them. It's just that's the only, that's the only thing they you know, that's the only thing on this weekend. So they go, I'm less and less sure of that. But anyway, I would say, analyze the stuff you like, whatever it is, you know, if it's ordinary people, analyze that and and write a lot, by the way, you'll hear this too from other people. Don't get hung up on your one script. Brent and I did this, you know, early on, we would write a script and go over and over and over and over, and then we've looked at one of those early scripts. This was like four or five scripts before short circuit, you know, go, well, it wasn't very good. And none of the versions we did just wasn't very good. You gotta, you gotta move on. Write something get it done. Say goodbye to it. Write something else. If you're, if you're a writer, you have plenty of ideas. And the worst, worst case is you find out, well, maybe I don't like it. You know, you do four or five scripts and you go, I don't like this. That's fine too. But write a lot. Don't get hung up on one thing, and you don't beat it to death. You know, push yourself to to a degree. You look out. Outside your comfort zone. Although I do think that you know, if you like emotional what's the Julianne Moore picture she just did where she was a lady with Alzheimer's. I can't think of, I can't remember the name of it. That's a very emotional picture that I would never try to write, right? But maybe, you know, other people would, they would take, that's exactly the kind of movie I wanted to study those and write a lot. I've already said, what I'm gonna say?

Dave Bullis 30:41
Yeah, you know, that's great advice, you know, Steve, you know, just going through and analyzing your movies that you like and why you like those. And like, for instance, I had Victor Miller on here, and Victor Miller wrote Friday the 13th part one, by the way, which also starred Kevin Bacon, by the way, wow, yes, yes. Small world, right? So, you know. And we were talking about, you know, how do you, you know, how do you break it down? And Victor said, listen, he goes, I've been doing this for 30 years now. Whatever he said, I'm still always looking for different ways of writing and telling a story. He goes, so and he said to me that, you know, he's always looking for a different method, something to sort of crack the story or another way to write. And, you know, it just, it just very reassuring and unassuring the same time to hear veterans like you and him, you know, just talk about screenwriting and always say, you know, they even with hits because tremor, you mean, because, again, you have, you've had tremors. You've had, you know, short circuit. And, you know, even, and he's, you know, had Friday 13th part one. He's had a few Emmy award winning pieces. And it's still, it's, again, it's reassuring, and it's, it's a little worrisome to hear that, you know, there's always, they still don't have it all figured out. Oh, you I mean, oh, even, even after these hits,

S.S Wilson 31:54
Every script, yes, every script, has its own life that it takes on and its own problems that it throws at you, and you suddenly find yourself going, Why did I even like this idea? I feel so trapped now. And, you know, sometimes you're beating your head against the wall, but, but, you know, that's, that's the great thing. It is a creative process. They Yeah, they do. They do each one is different. Brent and I are doing one right now, as a matter of fact, that is, that is very different from anything we've ever done. Ron challenged us. He said, You know what, I would really like to do another low budget movie. Ron is big in television, right? He's directed every TV show you've ever heard of, and he goes from show to show to show. And he said, you know, it'd be fun to do another low budget movie like we did tremors. Why don't you guys write a sci fi movie with no special effects? And we went really wrong. Then we thought about, we sat down so we actually have come up with an idea we're about, I don't know, halfway through the process now, our anguishing process, it was really hard. I mean, we just, you know, because we just, we just had to throw out idea after idea after idea until we came up with this idea that I don't want to talk about. But anyway, yes, good, good note, yes, good writers are always questioning what they're doing. And always, a lot of times, I think, wandering quietly in their dark corners.

Dave Bullis 33:13
I and, you know, I'm not even a professional writer yet, uh, Steve, but I, you know, I often feel that way, right? I often feel, I always feel like, What the hell did I start? Yeah, but, you know, it's funny, I actually pitched an idea one time, and the producer hated it, right? And he came back to me later on, and he goes, You know what? You go, I mean, this is late, months later, and he was already working on something else, but he goes, You know what, I was driving down the doubt, down this, this interstate. And he goes, you know, and all of a sudden, they couldn't stop thinking about your script idea. And I started laughing at myself. And he goes, you know, is a lot better than I thought it was. I said, See, it's always those rose colored glass

S.S Wilson 33:56
A rare producer that's great,

Dave Bullis 33:56
Yeah, but, but, you know, Steve, you know, we've been talking for about 30 minutes now, and I just want to ask you in closing, is there anything that you know we we didn't get a chance to discuss that you wanted to or is there any sort of thing you want to say sort of put a period that in this whole conversation?

S.S Wilson 34:10
Oh, I'm writing novels now. I'd like to mention that, to plug them among the other things I'm trying to do, but, but as far as was, there's anything else? Advice wise, I would say, Nothing springs to mind. I'm much better the questions

Dave Bullis 34:37
where you'll find you at online.

S.S Wilson 34:38
Oh, well, stampede entertainment maintains a website, knowing we always have hopes that we will sell something of our own and ramp up into production stampede-entertainment.com and then I'm on Facebook, of course, as SS Wilson and then the books are available at Amazon, Tucker's monster and phrase free cats.

Dave Bullis 35:05
And I will link to all that in the show notes. Everyone,

S.S Wilson 35:08
You have an impressive list of podcasts. By the way, there's like, 150 of them or something.

Dave Bullis 35:18
Yeah, like 127, or eight.

S.S Wilson 35:20
Oh, okay, I overstated a little bit, but I was quite impressed when I went to your site and I listened to a few things, of course, before I agreed to do this. And so I was impressed with your with your polished approach.

Dave Bullis 35:32
Well, thank you. I've actually been proud of that, because I had somebody, I won't say who, but they came on, they said, Dave, thank you for not being that guy. And I said, What do you mean? They said, You know, they said, like, there's so many people have podcasts now. And they said, you know, they're sort of like, in their mom's basement. And they they get people on the podcast, and they can just, like, sort of like, be malicious, you know what? I mean? It's just like, Oh, so you made a movie, huh? What do you think? And I'm like, No, I would never be that guy. I hate people. Like, I actually Steve real quick. I was on a podcast with a friend of mine, and he asked me to be on his podcast. So I went to his house, which, by the way, we went to his mom's basement to record this. And then he started going, like, Oh, so you made a TV pilot and pitched it to NBC, huh? And I said, Yeah, well, is that? Is that bad? And he's like, Well, I didn't know any This is the podcast, by the way. And he's like, Oh, it couldn't remind me too much of clerks. I said, Oh. I said, Yeah. I was like, and, and honestly, Steve, I'm pretty good at thinking on my feet. So what I did was I started, you know, I was like, if I started insulting you right now, dude, I said, believe me, I said you would cut this all out. And then finally he started to, like, ease up a little bit after we exchange little words, but, uh, but, yeah, I never would, would it would bring somebody on just to insult them. And I thank God that I've never had one bad podcast. I've never had anybody had bad feelings. Everything's always been great. So I'm proud of that.

S.S Wilson 36:54
Well, you should be. That's, that's, that's good to hear. And I'm forewarned, I haven't had that experience,

Dave Bullis 37:02
So I can put you, yeah, give you that warning. I'll be like the harbinger of hair, of horror. You know what I mean? Like always warning you about things that are coming, kind of like old friend and tremors. But he was, he didn't tell them. He just, he's but his dead body showed them without something, Right? Steve, I want to say thank you very much for coming on the podcast, sir, and please stay in touch if you need anything.

S.S Wilson 37:55
My pleasure. Thank you.

Dave Bullis 37:59
Take care!

S.S Wilson 38:02
Bye! Bye!

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BPS 426: Breaking the Rules: Crafting Powerful Films Without Hollywood Money with Shawn Whitney

July 3, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Sometimes, the fire of creativity is struck not by lightning but by the slow, smoldering ache of dissatisfaction. And in today’s soul-stirring conversation, we welcome Shawn Whitney, a filmmaker who found cinema not in the corridors of academia, but in the quiet rebellion of self-taught screenwriting and micro-budget filmmaking. Shawn Whitney is a screenwriter, director, and founder of Micro Budget Film Lab who empowers indie creators to tell powerful stories on shoestring budgets.

Our journey with Shawn begins not in childhood fantasies of movie stardom, but in the dense woods of Brechtian theater and the quiet study of old black-and-white films. His path wandered, as many worthwhile ones do, through rejection, basement solitude, and heartbreak—until something within him demanded not just expression but transmutation. Shawn didn’t study film in college. Instead, he emerged from the theater world and fell into filmmaking after a failed workshop production left him broke and dispirited. Yet that fall became his rise. As he said, “I just started writing screenplays and learning the craft in the quiet shadows.”

There’s something beautiful in learning the art of story not from glamorous sets or high-priced workshops but from the bones of failed experiments and the echoes of dialogue bouncing around your own mind. Shawn described his education not with fanfare but humility—referencing Sid Field, Blake Snyder, and the ever-controversial Save the Cat—tools that became his spiritual guides, not rigid masters. And with every script, he refined a method. Not the method, mind you. A method. “You just need a method. You can’t just be anarchy,” he mused.

But perhaps what struck me most was Shawn’s philosophy that screenwriting is not just structure—it’s an argument about what makes life meaningful. Films, he insists, must be animated not by market trends, but by inner turmoil, by the strange flickering passions of the human heart. “It can’t just be about chopping up zombies. Your characters must go through an inner transformation.” That idea—that a film is a living question—sets Shawn apart in a world often obsessed with following the formula instead of feeling the pulse.

Shawn’s micro-budget films—“A Brand New You” and “F*cking My Way Back Home”—aren’t just titles that stick. They are rebellious acts of filmmaking born from limited means and limitless creativity. His stories unfold not in sprawling CGI landscapes, but in human longing, funny sadness, and philosophical absurdity. One film follows a man trying to clone his dead wife in the living room. Another explores redemption from the passenger seat of a towed Cutlass Supreme. With a budget of $7,000 and a borrowed tow truck, Shawn pulled off scenes that feel bigger than most tentpole blockbusters.

But filmmaking, for Shawn, isn’t just about his own expression. Through Micro Budget Film Lab, he’s become a teacher, a mentor, and a kind of mad scientist in the alchemical lab of storytelling. His passion is not merely to direct, but to help others break free from the gatekeeping systems that keep fresh stories from being told. “We need a micro budget movement,” he declared, envisioning a cinematic rebellion where filmmakers use what they have to tell stories no one else dares to.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
My guest this week runs micro budget film lab. He has directed two micro budget features and is in pre production for a third with guest, Shawn Whitney. Hey Shawn, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Shawn Whitney 2:08
Thanks. Thanks very much for having me Dave. I really appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 2:10
Oh, you know, my pleasure, Shawn, you know, I've seen everything you've been doing with the micro budget film lab and all the great things that you're doing over there. But before I even, you know, we start talking about all the things you do there. I wanted to talk, you know, about your career and about, you know, getting started. So, you know, we're growing up. Shawn, did you always, you know, have this, you know, this hobby of film, or this love affair with film and and, you know, did you make films growing up as a kid?

Shawn Whitney 2:35
No, no. Short answer, no, no. I mean, I always was. I've thought of myself as a writer since I was probably 10 or nine years old. But, you know, there was no, we didn't have any video cameras or anything like that, like it just, we just didn't have them, so they wasn't really around. I watched a lot of old movies. You know, it was back in the days, first before cable and then cable and so, you know, we would get like, channel 29 from Buffalo, and we would watch, you know, bad movies, or not bad movies, but old movies from the 50s and 60s. But it wasn't really until much later that I decided to pursue film, actually.

Dave Bullis 3:16
So did you end up going to college for film?

Shawn Whitney 3:20
No, no, I so I went to I went to University in Toronto, at the York University, and I did a liberal arts degree in humanities, kind of cultural studies, and then I did a master's in interdisciplinary studies that was focused on writing for the theater. And I'd started a small theater company that was doing like Brechtian musical theater. And we did a bunch of really great productions. And, you know, I wrote stuff, and I was doing that, and then, but then I went, decided to make a turn towards film, really, in about the year 2003 I guess. And at that point, I just began writing, you know, I'd done, I tried to do, actually, a theater production, I did, like a workshop production, and it went really badly, and I lost a lot of money, and I was really depressed, so I kind of hit, hid in my basement for about three years, and just started writing screenplays and just sort of learning how to write screenplays on my own. And then, I guess, three or four years, and then I ended up getting accepted into the Canadian film center, which is kind of like the American Film Institute, Institute. And that was my kind of, you know, my formal, the formal, official part of my education was that residency there

Dave Bullis 4:35
You mentioned writing your own screenplays and sort of teaching yourself how to write screenplays. You know, that's sort of something I did a few years ago, you know. And I think that helps out a lot. And what I want to ask is, you know, was there any particular books or even scripts or even movies that you sort of use to sort of pick apart, you know, and how to, sort of teaching yourself how to write?

Shawn Whitney 4:57
Yeah, there was a few books. I mean, Sid Field, I think was maybe the first book screenplay that I that I read, and that kind of opened my eyes to, you know, structure and all that kind of stuff. And then I read another book by Epstein called crafty screenwriting, which was really good. And then the most recently I read, a few years ago now, I read save the cat by Blake Snyder, and that was, I know, it gets, it gets, you know, a lot of bad people go on about it now, because it has become kind of the dominant model in Hollywood, in many ways. But it's, I still think that it's a really powerful machinery that you can use, you can bend it to kind of more unconventional structures, but it was really useful for me in terms of creating a kind of method to approach the screenwriting process.

Dave Bullis 5:49
Yeah, I have noticed that save the cat has gotten a lot of flack. I mean, I think if you're at the top of any field and you know, I think save the cat has sort of gotten to the upper echelon now, because, I mean, well, Sid Field has passed, and so has the person who made say the cat has passed. But I mean, I still think that it's been able, it's been it's been sort of passed on through his through his program, and I think now, when you're at the top field, when you're at the top of any field, I think you're gonna get flack for a lot of things.

Shawn Whitney 6:20
Yeah, totally, I mean, and it's partly, it's because of the way that Hollywood approached the whole process of storytelling. I mean, it really is the kind of formula that's in save the cat is used constantly, like you can watch a movie and time, it's kind of just the same cat structure and and I think people get because of that, and because a lot of Hollywood movies are pretty, you know, they're pretty empty, sort of commercial properties that are really, you know, not about, they're not about art, they're about they're a product, right? And I think people confuse the power of the story structure with the vacancy of the content. And I think that's where a lot of that comes from. It's like, you know, Hollywood movies are kind of empty, or not all of them, but a lot of them are empty, and it's because they all follow this model. And I, and I think it's, it's a little bit of a misrepresentation,

Dave Bullis 7:10
Yeah, and, you know, I know you can't see this because it's a podcast, but I have a huge screenwriting book library right next to me, to my left, and I sort of did what you did, you know, I wanted to figure out, you know, screenwriting, the nuts and bolts and getting down to the absolute, you know, sort of atoms of it, and figure out, you know, what makes a great screenwriter, what makes a great screenplay. And I sort of just, you know, would buy these books piece by piece. Some of them you could buy, I mean, for pennies on the dollar and Amazon. Others, you know, they just came out, and they're still full price. But, you know, there's a lot. There are some that really speak to to me, and there's others that I read. And I'm just like, I don't know, maybe, maybe this is lost, because, you know, I'm sure it happened to you too, Sean, where you have people recommend books to you, like screenwriting books, for instance, and you read them, and you're just like, what was the big deal about this you know?

Shawn Whitney 7:59
Yeah, yeah, totally. And a lot of them end up, I don't know, after, after a while, if you read a few of them, it's like, okay, this is, I'm kind of reading the same thing again. And at a certain point, you need to just get a method that you're going to use and then apply it, and then learn from it and find it, find ways to advance upon it. You know, I don't think there's any absolutely perfect or the right method, exactly. But you just need a method. You can't just be It can't just be anarchy.

Dave Bullis 8:25
Yes, absolutely. I think a method is key, finding your routine also, which I guess, is another way saying method, but, you know, finding your routine and making sure, you know, okay, well, 11 o'clock today, or maybe a little earlier, or maybe I'm gonna get up at two, you know, an hour early today, and I'm just gonna write, you know, I'm just gonna write for, you know, 45 minutes to half an hour. And you and you're absolutely right, you know, finding that process is key, because, like you just said, when I would read some of these books, I would I felt like I was reading the same thing, same things, over and over again. And I'm just like, I didn't just read this book, like, with a different cover and my different author, but, I mean, but that's bound to happen. You know, once you start, you know, getting to a certain point, you're gonna start seeing all that same information, just basically, you know, used again or maybe presented in a different way.

Shawn Whitney 9:11
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, there's only so many ways, in a sense, to tell a story. And if you're telling a three act story, or a story that has a beginning, middle and end, anyway, there's only so many ways to do it. And, you know, the interesting thing because I read a lot of scripts in my development job, and I read tons of scripts, and what you see mostly is that is not, I mean, you do see scripts that come in that are kind of, you know, soulless machines. But mostly what you see from screenwriters who aren't established is that they just don't have the structure. They don't know how to tell a story that keeps moving forward. And you you really need that. And so to go back to what you're saying is so it feels repetitive on the one hand, and it is repetitive in a lot of ways, but it also is like people need to learn this, because otherwise they can't tell a story.

Dave Bullis 10:10
And you touched on something through Sean, you know, you said the that some of the scripts that come in are like a soulless machine, you know, I know you can't go into specifics, or, you know, anything like that, but is there anything, any sort of thing that that that writer might be doing wrong, whether it be structure, or is it because they don't have a voice that makes it sort of like that soulless machine?

Shawn Whitney 10:30
Well, what it is, is that people write to the market, and because, you know, people want to make a living, and so they think, Okay, well, you know, like, for a while, we were getting all these found footage scripts, for instance, which you know were the rage, and they would come in, and people would follow the beats, you know, would like, x would happen on page 12 and Y would happen on page 23 or whatever. But what was lacking in them was that they were just, you know, it's like, it's like watching a plumber fix your pipes. It's necessary work, you know, but it's not interesting. Besides, for you, because, you know, your toilets overflowing, but for most people, it's not going to be that, that interesting. And so what I find lacking is a kind of, some kind of universal, universality to it. So you need to have, for instance, your characters. It can't just be about, you know, chopping up zombies or aliens or whatever. They have to be going through an inner turmoil, because really, what stories are about is they're an argument, you know, about what makes the good life, and you're making an argument, and if you're not making an argument, and if it's not being felt through your character, then it just feels like watching a plumber fix a pipe or watching somebody build a house. It's kind of interesting to see the structure of it, but it's not emotionally moving.

Dave Bullis 11:41
Yeah, I just took a webinar. Was a free webinar, but by Doug Richardson, who did wrote, who wrote, Die Hard 2 and he actually was saying, you know, that whole thing about an argument, and his, his whole thing was, hey, structure is an argument. You know, how you structure your film should be an argument for your whole movie. And you know that actually really stuck with me. And it No, just great that you hear, I'm just hearing you, you know, say something similar about your characters and argument as well, which, again, is I agree with 100% as something I've learned with screenwriting is that and that, you know, you we, we sort of when we were making characters. I think sometimes screenwriters have a tendency to write themselves, just like you said. You know, we put ourselves as the main character, and I think that sort of ends up hurting us, because the main character ends up becoming almost like an A shell, and everybody else is sort of, you know, having all the having, sort of, you know, like the witty banter, or maybe they, they're actually the ones that are actually going through a transformation. And the main character just, sort of, you know, is just sort of there, going from, you know, basically just going basically just going through the motions,

Shawn Whitney 12:44
Yeah, yeah, totally. And, I mean, it can be you, but it has to be you in a universal way. It has to be universal, you you know, like you have to, you know, there's things about your life. You know, there was a film, a micro budget film that I talk about a lot called bell flower from a few years ago, think 2011 that was shot for like 17 grand, and it did really well. I think it went to Sundance at to Sundance. Actually, it went to Sundance. It got distribution with oscilloscope. It's a great movie, and it's about his breakup. So it's a very, in some ways, a personal film, but he took his breakup and he turned it into a kind of universal, crazy story about young male rage and representations of violence and stuff that's a lot of fun to watch and has has universal value to it, because he what he does is all the parts, the soul of it all fits together. So the characters are characters journey fits with the theme of the movie, and the theme of the movie fits with the visual styling of the movie, and with the visual elements in the movie. And that all fits with what's happening with the the secondary characters and so on. So it works together as a as a machine, but a machine in the good sense that machine in the sort of emotional, emotional sense that all the parts are firing, all the pistons are firing.

Dave Bullis 13:53
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It kind of reminds me also of sort of Mad Max, you know, Mad Max Fury road, I know what we're talking about, now, you know, with, because, with the main character, but a Mad Max. So he never really changes, you know, but, but that, again, is the whole point of Mad Max, is that he Max is never actually the main character name any of his movies, you know. He's just go, he's helping everybody else out as they're going on their adventures. And I think, but going into those even, well, that made me probably that may be probably starting the second one, but in road warrior. But even, even, you know, road warrior, then you have beyond thought of dome, and then you have the newest one, Ferrari road you kind of see that formula at work, and it actually works, like we were just saying, it actually works for that. But anywhere else, you kind of be like, Well, what the hell is going on here? You know, it's not complimenting itself, if you know what I mean?

Shawn Whitney 14:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that the model, the Mad Max model, is also the model for noir, you know, like noir fiction and noir films is about this cynical, scarred human in the world who is giving us an entry into the world to see the journey of other people and we become where the sort of cynical we're the sort of bring brought in to in the same. Way, in the same state as that person, and then we're learning through that process, the argument about that world and what's valuable, you know,

Dave Bullis 15:07
Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. Kind of reminds me of Chinatown in a way. You know, Jack Nicholson, you know, at the whole end, he was very, very sort of scarred, and by the end, you know, I don't know if he really changed, but, but the whole, but, the whole venture was absolutely amazing.

Shawn Whitney 15:26
No, absolutely

Dave Bullis 15:27
So, you know, as we talked more about, you know, your career, Sean, you know, you obviously knew you taught yourself how to write screenplays. And, you know, so where was it, where you actually started to sit down and actually you made your own film?

Shawn Whitney 15:41
So I had after, I actually, shortly before, I went to the film center. And then after I went to the film center, I made a few shorts, and kind of, you know, I'd read, I read a few things about, you know, how to shoot, not cross the line, you know, coverage, that kind of thing. And then I sort of shot some, some shorts that were, you know, from moderate to bad and but it was really fun, and I loved it. And I learned a lot as both as a filmmaker and as a writer, because I learned, okay, well, that doesn't work. You know that, you know, a block of dialog that long isn't gonna work, saying it this way isn't gonna work, like you just you you see it being played out. And so it's an extremely useful experience, even from the point of view of being a screenwriter. And then, you know, and then when I came out of Canadian film center, and, well, a bunch of stuff happened. I had a script options with, like, an Oscar nominated producer, and it all looked, you know, great. And, you know, I was counting the money and thinking my career was about to take off. How could things go wrong? And that was 2008 and then at the bottom fell out of the financial market, and in subsequently, all the money dried up for indie films, and Hollywood's reverted to just, you know, retreads and remakes and tent pole pictures. And so while I got a job out of that in development that I still have, I my career as a filmmaker and as a screenwriter kind of came to a halt, and so after a number of years of having done that, I just was, like, one day, sitting in my office with my wife, feeling frustrated because I was reading a script that I that I thought was kind of bad, but was, you know, was financed because it had some a list cast, and I turned to my wife, and I'm like, This is ridiculous, like we're helping, you know, she's a wedding photographer, so she helps people realize their dreams, in her way. And I was doing it with, you know, story editing, and I said, you know, why don't, why aren't we? Why are we just the bridesmaids, you know, why don't we make our movie? And and so we decided at that point, then we just started talking about a story. And then it happened,

Dave Bullis 17:42
Yeah, the the bottom fell out in 2008 for man, for so many people. I mean, I was so tragic. And, you know, I know other people as well who've had, who had things in development and 2008 hit. And, my God, I mean, and here we are in 2016 and we're still recovering from that here in America, but, but, yeah, you know, and the shocks were sort of felt well wide, but, you know, you you able to regain, you know your composure, you know, regain, you know your motivation, and you know, so, so what was, what the ended up did, your first movie ended up being.

Shawn Whitney 18:20
It ended up being, I mean, it's a con. It's like a sci fi comedy called a brand new you about a widower who can't get over the death of his wife, and so he moves into this house, and after trying to failing at committing suicide, he convinces his landlord and his roommate to help him try to clone her in the living room. Because his landlord, it turns out, is this disgraced biochemist, and so it's about him trying to kind of recreate this moment that is lost. But it's a comedy, so it's funny, but funny sad, I guess

Dave Bullis 18:50
So is that available to watch online or through VOD or anything?

Shawn Whitney 18:55
No, we're we got a sales agent, and we've been going through the hell that is known as deliverables. And we just sent off for the second time for you have to get a, you have to get a quality control report before your film, like we've done all the the rest of the stuff, I think, I hope to God, and then we needed to make this quality control report. And so it goes, you know, you send it in. Cost, you like, 1500 bucks for, you know, four passes to cover your video and all your your audio tracks, and they send you a report, and if there's any problems in there, you know, and it can be any kinds of thing, and then it comes back to you, and then you have to fix those, and then you have to send it back. So we got that back and send it to our audio editor and our editor, our picture editor and and so we've, we've just sent it off for the second QC report, and I'm hoping that it's good enough.

Dave Bullis 19:44
Yeah, those deliverables, Shawn, the more you know, I didn't know too much about deliverables to a few years ago, and then I found out all that is in that is involved with deliverables. And even when talking with, you know, my friend, Jason Brubaker at the stripper, you know, just getting involved with those deliverable deliverables, you end up it's like a like, you said, it's like, what did you call a living hell? I, I think that's pretty accurate.

Shawn Whitney 20:18
But yeah, yeah, it's totally brutal.

Dave Bullis 20:20
So, you know, so right after you finished your first movie, and again, you know, that was a micro budget film, and you know, you made your second film, which, by the way, I love the name of this, of this film, by the way, fucking my way back home, that is a very, a very good title, by the way. And also, it's very eye catching. So even if I didn't know what it was, even if I didn't know what it was about, I could just imagine what that what that is about, but, but, you know, so where was the impetus to make your second film? I mean, did you already have this script, you know, written while you did your first one, or did you sort of just, you know, have a lot of motivation to sort of make this script?

Shawn Whitney 21:00
No, we were, well, we'd, we'd done the kind of the festival thing with the first one, and gone, gone to a few festivals, and won some awards. And we were like, What are we gonna do next? And so we, you know, I had some other scripts that we wanted to do, but they were bigger. They were like, you know, at least $100,000 kind of thing. And, and we're just, we're not in a position to make $100,000 movie, unfortunately, at the moment. And so we, you know, my production partners, there's four of us in the company, and we said, we know, what are we going to do next? And I had this story that I developed with another writer years earlier that he and I were going to shoot together, a wonderful writer named Rhys Carruthers, and but it just never happened. We both kind of gotten busy with our own things. And so I spoke to him, and I said, Hey, dude, can I take our story and write it up as a script so we can shoot it? And he was like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I then I wrote it up, and we started editing, you know, getting notes back and forth. And, you know, I don't know how many months later, eight months later, maybe nine months later. Then we shot the movie.

Dave Bullis 22:04
So when you shot the movie, did you have a slightly bigger budget than when, when? Then with your first movie?

Shawn Whitney 22:10
No, you know, the irony is, we learned a lot from the first movie. You know, we made mistakes that cost us money, and we got better at improv, improvising. And so the first film cost us, I think, 22,000 or something, and the second movie, we shot for 7000 but it's actually more complicated, and there's more locations, and we a lot of it takes place in a car going around the city. So we had to tow the car, because our driver, like he plays the driver in the in the film, is, is like, maybe the worst driver on the planet. So the idea of him acting while driving this like 1974 Supreme was was a horrifying thought. So we had to, like, tow the car around.

Dave Bullis 22:51
So when you had to tow the car around the I guess the biggest, then the biggest part of production budget, then, was obviously a tow truck, a driver in the tow truck, you obviously had to get, like, a, some kind of, I guess you had a route that you wanted to go, you know, again, I'm just, I'm just thinking with the producers hat right now, Shawn, what was,

Shawn Whitney 23:08
Yeah, yeah, no. Well, you know, we went, so our Plan A was okay. So Plan A was we thought, you know, we had a connection with the post production house, and maybe he could get us a deal with a, you know, rental house whites in Toronto. And he contacted them for us, and they got back, and they were like, oh, yeah, you can get a, you know, you know, a tow vehicle, but it's like, $10,000 a day, plus you need to get cops, right. You need to have off duty, you know, paid, paid duty officers. And we're like, well, it's more than our budget. So we tried U haul, and we did a taxi, we did a test shoot with a U haul trailer, pulling it around and so on. And that seemed like the way we were going to go, but that was going to be, I think, about 1000 bucks with insurance, and that still seemed high. So what we ended up doing was a guy who owns a cafe around the corner from my house had a tow truck and, well, he had a car. First of all, he had this Cutlass Supreme. And I was like, Hey, man, can I rent your car for the shoot? Your car is, like, this big, ugly beast, and it's a beautiful sky blue color, and I really want to use it, because it really looked good. And he was like, yeah, yeah, totally. And we told him we were going to tow it. And he was like, Oh, hey, do you want to you want to rent my, my, my pickup truck, like these little Toyota pickup truck, like, Yeah, sure. So we rented it off him for a few $100 and then we went on Craigslist, and we found somebody who rented, like a car tow trailer, and we rented it for two weeks for, I think, $300 so in total, you know, car tow vehicle and trailer was like, 800 bucks. 700 bucks.

Dave Bullis 24:43
Wow, that, you know, again, that's amazing how you know, just by just sort of putting on your producer hat, you can actually, you know, get that down further and further and further and again, I imagine also you're going to have insurance, because I could just imagine, you know, towing a car around. But. Yeah, so it was insurance included in that $800 or $900 cost?

Shawn Whitney 25:04
Yeah, we got it. We got production insurance, and that was more that was for the entire production. And I think it was about 900 bucks maybe to cover the whole thing. And it was a bit dodgy, like we told them. They were like, you know, we have this car, and we'll be towing it to locations and then putting it off the trailer and shooting it in locations. And so they, you know, if they found out we were shooting with people in the vehicle, towing it around, we probably wouldn't have been covered, so we would have had to evacuate everybody from the car if we got into accident. But luckily, we didn't. And there was no, there was no insurance claims were made.

Dave Bullis 25:38
Excellent. You know, it's always going every and whenever. You never have to make an insurance claim, right? So, yes. So now, Sean with sort of finishing the film, is it? Is it on VOD yet? Or are you putting that together right now?

Shawn Whitney 25:54
Yeah, we just got picture lock like last week, and so we've sent it off to the composer. We've sent it off to the audio mixer to begin that process, and we've sent it off to the colorist.

Dave Bullis 26:08
So now, now, so, so now that that picture is locked. Now, now, again, I'm cheating, because I have your whole info in front of me. I know you made a third movie, so we get a third movie that's actually in development right now, correct?

Shawn Whitney 26:23
Yes, yeah, yeah. There's a, we have a, we have a script that's written that's, I think, a second draft at this point that we're hoping to do a little, little higher budget, if we can raise the cash, or, I guess, you know, figure out the, whatever the equivalent is of, you know, a tow trailer for for our, our spaceship, because it all takes place inside a spaceship.

Dave Bullis 26:43
And that's called the century of redemption, right?

Shawn Whitney 26:46
Century of redemption, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 26:48
So obviously you're going to shoot that next year. And you know, again, I wish you the best with shooting that. And so what I wanted to ask about was obviously your micro budget film lab, you know, you know, you sort of started this, and what was sort of the impetus to actually start micro budget film lab?

Shawn Whitney 27:08
Well, when we shot the first film, I mean, finding information was, it was really dispersed, you know, we could find an article here, an article there, and get, you know, pull some tips here and there. But a lot of it was really learning on the fly, which added added stress to the whole process. So and, you know, we were borrowing money and, you know, figuring out how to finance it and all that stuff that we had to kind of build the machine from scratch, as it were. And so my thinking was that it would be great for because there are so many people out there who want to make a micro budget, or who budget or who want to make a feature and are just waiting. They're doing like I did, you know, they're waiting for years, and, you know, submitting to contests and spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on contests. And, you know, sometimes contests don't even send you the results and never mind notes. And I was like, you know, people need to have that resource, and so I want to be that resource, and I wanted it to be different than, you know, no film school, which is a great site, but as you know, it has a lot of gear focus. And I'm, you know, because of my background coming in from the point of view of story and from screenwriting, I was kind of more interested in the esthetics and the story construction side, and how to do things differently and how to create a kind of shared esthetic, like, I mean, I wrote a post a little while ago called about, you know, we need a micro budget movement, and I've been thinking about that a lot, and the need to, kind of for us as micro budget filmmakers, to move beyond simply, you know, atomized individuals all struggling to make our films. And I'm happy to help people out on that basis, just like the technical side of how to make a movie, but also, you know, where there have been successes in the past with people outside of the system. They've generally been coming from people who exist as a movement. You know, you look at dogma 95 or mumblecore, or the neorealists or the French New Wave, and they part of their marketing buzz and part of their power comes from this esthetic challenge to the dominant storytelling models and cinematic models. And so I wanted to kind of create a space where that kind of could gestate, and that's what, that's kind of where the name lab came from. It was like a laboratory for for film movements, we can

Dave Bullis 29:22
We can do a lot of like experimentation, right? Yeah, yeah, like, sort of mixing chemicals, like a mad scientist,

Shawn Whitney 29:28
Yeah, yeah, making drugs.

Dave Bullis 29:31
But we know, but experimentation film, I think that's what allows, you know, with making micro budgets, and you know, even, even when I, you know, made my own student film, it allowed for more experimentation. Because obviously, number one, we had no clue what the hell we were doing. And I mean, me personally, I had no clue what I was doing when I was making my student film. Two, the budget was like the change, you know, people have in their pockets. And three, I had no weird answer to so any, any weird, wacky thing we did, you know, is it funny? Okay, let's put it. Let's put it in there. But, you know, with micro budgets, you know, you know this is it's always, you know, encouraged to for experimentation. Because, I mean, you know, Sean, if you had a couple million dollar budget, and you had people are reporting to every day, you know, you try to do something out of the norm, and they're gonna say, What the fuck are you doing?

Shawn Whitney 30:31
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, yeah. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of there's a lot at stake. When you've got a million or 10 million or $100 million you know, they they want you to do what works and what works is what worked last year or the year before, and so they just want to repeat the same thing, because it's a formula that makes money. But that, that formula that works for Hollywood for ten million movies or $100 million movies doesn't work for micro budgets, because they just look like cheap knockoffs, right? Yeah, and they look like, and they look like, they look like cheap knockoffs. But more than that, they ex all the flaws of Hollywood can be are kind of hidden by the the the money that's poured into the great effects and the great sound and the great light, and, you know, these awesome actors who are loved and so people forgive them, you know, any errors or whatever, all that stuff allows Hollywood to kind of smooth out the problems in their in their in their storytelling, and, you know, the the conventionality of their their cinematics, technique or whatever, you don't have that in a micro budget. So you you get none of the good of Hollywood, of the all that that money, and you get all of the bad when you're trying to just replicate a Hollywood formula film on like, you know what? They see their budget for their coffee cups.

Dave Bullis 31:45
So true. Shawn, you know? And again, yeah, you know, if you try, yeah, you're right. If you try to, try to emulate that, you're just going to end up, you know, shooting yourself in the face. And that's something that I found as well, you know, I tried to emulate, uh, different action movies, so, you know, with my second and third student films. And I'm like, holy crap. I don't have the time, the budget, the resources to do all this stuff, so I can't make, you know, a whole scene about gunplay, or, you know, I can't blow up this whole building even with, you know, Red Giant effects, you know. And it sort of reminds me also of there was this panel of discussion was watching on TCM, and one of the guys who host TCM said he actually loved the era of the 50s and 60s with movie making, because they didn't have a budget to blow up buildings or anything, so they had to focus on the story. And to me, that's where we are again is, I think, a hallmark of a filmmaker nowadays is you have to make a micro budget film set in one to three locations, very minimal, and the story and the concept have to be, what, what is your main selling point of this whole thing?

Shawn Whitney 32:50
Yeah, I mean, I don't know about, you know, I there's some dog move films that I really love, like celebration I really love. And, you know, they had their bow of chastity, or whatever that was very, very strict, and most of them ended up breaking it. And I don't know about all of the rules in terms of restrictions about what you can and can't do, because there's, you know, there's a film monsters by Gareth Edwards, who went on to do Godzilla. And Godzilla apparently, sucks. I've never seen it, but, you know, they've got bad reviews and so on. And monsters did really well. And monsters did really well, I think because kind of move what you're you're saying about story, because it was a, it was a really fresh not to monster movie. But it's not about the monsters. The monsters are just the backdrop to this road movie and this relationship between these two people in a structure that's not, it's it's much more open and and alive than than really tight, tightly bound Hollywood structures where, you know, there's a monster and they kill people one at a time in the woods and so on. And it wasn't that. And so he used, you know, there's a lot of effects in that, but he shot it for like, 15,000 bucks. And then he just happens to be this, you know, special effects wizard who has worked for years for the BBC, doing, you know, crazy compositing and all this incredible stuff. So he had those, he had that talent. And so, you know, kudos to him to bring that talent. But then, you know, where he couldn't, he couldn't do the kind of practical effects that that you can do with Hollywood. So his his shooting was, was this story, this really simple, beautiful, little story about this relationship between these people, and that's what gave the movie its power. The the monsters was, you know, sometimes kind of was neat or whatever, but that's, you know, when he got to Godzilla, then he could, then he didn't have to think about story so much. And so he ended up with a much weaker picture than monsters, which was made for, again, like the coffee cup budget for Godzilla. And, you know, I don't know what he's doing next, but that, that point that you make about story being so important and breaking with the the conventions of what Hollywood does with stories, and really allowing yourself to, you know, to take advantage of the freedom that you have as a as a filmmaker, because you don't have that 100 million dollar weight hanging over your head that you have to recoup,

Dave Bullis 34:58
Yeah, and it's, I was always. Reading something about this as well, where a lot of studios now are looking at, you know, the the micro budget film, the micro budget film world, the independent film world. And they're taking directors who maybe made a movie for a million or less, and all of a sudden they're make, giving them all this, you know, all this money to sort of make these, these franchises. For instance, Josh Trank with Fantastic Four prior to that, he made Chronicle for, I think, what, $3 million and, you know, I've seen stuff like that. And I think also, I don't know how well that's transferred over, though, I think that I don't know if the studios are rushing because they're so desperate for a hit to sort of prop up the other properties. Or if maybe, you know, these, these independent directors, maybe aren't there yet. If you know what I mean?

Shawn Whitney 35:45
I think it's more, I mean, they're trying to I think there's two things. I think that often, as as artists, often we don't know what makes us special. Or, you know, our artists, artistic production special. You know, we're not super self critical all the time, and so we don't know how to necessarily replicate it. And when we're put in a new situation where suddenly you've got 10 or 100 or whatever million dollars you're you're in a new situation. And so you're not you have, you know, before there was all kinds of pressures on you that forced you to be the kind of artist that you were, and now there's different pressures on you that are changing you in a different direction. So there's, there's, there's that, but there's also Hollywood is, isn't interested in what is magical about the really small budget movies. What they're interested in is the buzz and they are the cache and the, you know, the edginess of them, but they, those are just words for them, and they don't really know how to capture because, again, they're they're thinking about, it's 100 million bucks that they just invest in. Just invested, and they need to recoup that. And so they need to take all the edges off, because you want to appeal to, you know, you know, it's like I had a meeting with a sales agent on a completely different project A while back, and the first question they asked me about the project was, who's your white male lead? And it was sort of eye opening to me, you know? And this guy was probably a nice guy, whatever. And whatever, and, you know, probably not a racist, but he, he is speaking about how the market, the superstitions of the market, conceive of it, because they're like, well, black guys and women and, you know, lesbians and gays don't sell in China or they don't sell in Africa. So we need somebody who's like the universal icon, or avatar for money making, and that is the white male dude between the ages of 35 and 50. And so that's the kind of the way that they think about it. And so even when you get an edgy director up there, you know, like Gareth Edwards doing Godzilla, now they're trying to fit it into the money making mold that they know, and it has to fit into that. And so even, you know, you know, you go into, it's like the old joke, right? Oh, I joined the government to change it from within. And then instead of changing the system, the system changes you and I think that's what happens,

Dave Bullis 37:56
Yeah, it's, it's very true. And you know, you know, as we were talking about, you know, budgets. You know you have currently, you know, micro budget, you know, film lab, fun competition, which I think is amazing. So could you go into a little detail about that?

Shawn Whitney 38:11
Yeah, you know, I was, what I wanted to do was to create a screenwriting coaching program. Because, I think often people, you know, because there is so much emphasis on gear, because gear has become so cheap and made it so possible to make micro budget films now, whether it's camera gear or sound gear or whatever, and people get so hung up on gear, and they become gear heads. And, you know, people talking about, oh, the latest RED camera and black magic. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they and the scripts I read are, and, you know, I read about 150 scripts a year, like, I've read well over 1000 scripts in the last eight years, and I'm telling you, most of them are, are very weak and not developed. And it's kind of part of my my argument to my my community, is you need to develop your script. So I was like, How can I motivate people to develop good, you know, edgy, fresh scripts, and get them to focus on that so that they can make some great pictures and, like, really go deep in terms of the stories that exist inside themselves. So I thought, well, I'm going to do a screenwriting thing, but how can I get people interested? So I decided to come up with this screenwriting coaching intensive that would last over a period of three months, and I would work with a, you know, a relatively small group of people to go through each stage of the screenwriting process, from how to come up with a story for a micro budget, how to create a log line, how to create a story structure, developing characters, theme, all that stuff, right through to revising, how to revise your script with a micro budget in mind, and then have this and provide feedback the whole time, and then at the end, have this potential award. So that you know, of the first 10 scripts that are submitted at the end of this process, I would give like a full story edit of their scripts, which is what I do professionally. And I would, you know, meet with them over Skype. And then the best script of those 10 I would give them an, you know, I would invest $2,500 into making their movie. And so that's kind of how it was born.

Dave Bullis 40:19
And I also, like, you're doing the video question and answer section, because I imagine, as soon as you announced the competition, this flurry of questions came in. And I'm sure, and it's a great idea, by the way that you're doing it through video, because video is, you know, it's always, obviously, it's a great promotional tool. And I think also a lot of times, people, more, especially filmmakers, more adapt to watching a video tutorial or explanation, if you will, than just, you know, reading sort of like a blog post,

Shawn Whitney 40:51
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I try to mix it up a little bit, and do do a bit of both, but yeah, and it's kind of nice to do, you know, like with the FAQs that I've done, I can just, you know, I get tons of you know, questions, and I, you know, went through them and found some of the most common ones. And then I could just go up on my roof. You know, there's a terrace in our apartment, so I went up on the terrace and and just sat there with my coffee. And, you know, could just talk into, you know, my selfie stick that I put an elastic band on to hold it to a chair, and I could just talk to it and answer the question, like, like, we're sitting down having a coffee.

Dave Bullis 41:27
Yeah, it did feel that way as well. And so obviously, just to sort of answer a few of those questions, I know you already answered them, but just, you know, for, obviously, for the listeners, you know, like, I guess the one would be, you know, who actually owns the script? At the end of all this,

Shawn Whitney 41:43
The writer slash filmmaker owns the script. The only deal is for the money. The only conditions, I guess, is that it's an investment. So there'll be an investors contract, and if the film makes money, then you have to pay back. You have to pay back the money, you know, and which seems reasonable. And I want people to take some responsibility for the process of, you know, their their contributors, to their to their film. And then that money, it won't come back to me. I'll put it into another fund so that I can grow a fund to ultimately supply, you know, help other, other people in the same, in the same corner sort of way. And then the second thing is that the money will be released on the first day of principal photography. So you actually don't just write a script and get the money. You actually have to go into the proper pre production. And I'll work with people through the pre production process to help them get the show on the road and on the first day of principal photography, that cash will be released from them from escrow.

Dave Bullis 42:39
And I think that's an amazing idea, Shawn and so, for So, for people listening, who might be interested in work, where could they enter, you know, this fun competition?

Shawn Whitney 42:49
Well, it hasn't. The doors haven't opened yet. I've been taking because I got tons of feedback from people and what they felt should be in the program and so on. And so I'm going to open the doors to that. And as I say, it's not, it's not going to be to tons of people, because, because I'm giving feedback, I can only deal with so many people before I would, you know, have to start taking amphetamines and stay up all night. So that'll happen on not this coming Monday, but the following Tuesday. So a week Tuesday, I'll open the doors on that.

Dave Bullis 43:24
And is that for people just in Canada, or people in the US and UK?

Shawn Whitney 43:30
It's people internationally. You know, one of the cool things, you know, I've been promoting the Facebook page and the website and so on through Facebook, which is, you know, in terms of, you know, micro budget film marketing. Facebook is actually has a really user friendly, very powerful interface. But I've been, I was marketing, and I was marketing it primarily to the United States and Canada, because that's, you know, where I'm from. And by accident, I think I selected worldwide. And so it ended up promoting this thing, one of these posts out internationally, and I started getting, I'm like, why am I getting all these people with names, like Indian names? It was like, all of a sudden, like, literally, like, dozens of people contacting me from from India. And I realized I'd made this mistake. And it was awesome, because it's, I'm meeting these filmmakers from India. Like, I just interviewed a filmmaker last week, who did a micro budget film called D major, which is a beautiful film, and has gotten, is getting looks like it's getting distribution on the India's version of Netflix, and it's got him, you know, a producer is coming on board for his next film anyway. And it was a fascinating interview, just to hear how, in Kolkata, he made a movie for $3,000 and how they did it. And, you know, they didn't have a slider, so they put a camera on the sweater, and they pulled it across the table and this kind of stuff. But anyway, that's a long detour to say that the program is open internationally.

Dave Bullis 44:50
The reason I ask is because obviously America is my US is my biggest market, followed by the UK, followed by China, then Australia. Then Canada. So I just obviously, just wanted to make sure, yeah.

Shawn Whitney 45:05
So yeah, Chinese filmmakers are more than welcome as well, obviously, as Americans and Brits.

Dave Bullis 45:12
Excellent. And I was shocked, as everyone else, when I heard that China was my third biggest market. I looked at my numbers, I'm like, wow. Okay, but bigger bigger than, Yeah, seriously, who knew bigger than, bigger than the Australia and Canada. Wow. And, you know, So Sean, you know, I know we touched on this briefly, but, you know, sort of, you know, in closing, I wanted to ask, you know, what is there anything else that you're working on that we should know about?

Shawn Whitney 45:41
Well, I mean, in terms of my film, it's, it's the, you know, when you mentioned century of redemption, which is a space kind of, there's a sci fi, but all takes place in one location, though a fairly elaborate location. And then, I mean, I am on, I'm on a, I'm a senior programmer at the Victoria Texas indie film festival, which is a wonderful film festival just outside of Houston and and, I mean, I'm working on stuff all the time with this company I work for in Canada media biz, and I've been with them as an executive story consultant for about eight years, doing both story editing and also developing original content. So I have, I have some TV series that are in development that I'm pretty stoked about, and hoping something happens with them, but, you know, I'm at the point now, you know, if you've been in the film industry anytime at all, you know, you know, producers come to you and they're like, super excited about your project, and you get all excited and it's gonna happen, and then, then they don't happen. And so I'm, I'm, I still retain a small glimmer of hope in my heart, but part of me is always like, yeah, you know, I can't get, I can't get excited about maybe the mainstream stuff any longer, because it just so hard. It's so hard to get stuff off the ground. Things crash and burn all the time.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. Sean, I just was having this conversation the other day. It is so hard to get things without with, you know, even a pretty sizable budget off the ground, you know. And people who listen to this podcast on a frequent basis know that I talk about that a lot. I talk about my own projects and things that have just crashed and burned, and things that never really got off, and things that got off and still had a lot of problems on takeoff, but, but so, you know, in closing, Sean, is there anything we didn't talk about that maybe wanted to discuss, or any sort of final thoughts to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation.

Well, I think the main thing, and the main inspiration from micro budget film lab is, you know, following on from what we were just saying about everything's crashing and burning. And, you know, I looked up was reading some stuff on the the spec screenplay market recently, and the, something like 100,000 scripts are registered every year with the Writers Guild of America, and this year, less than 100 were purchased by the studios and the indie majors. And it can look really depressing, and you can sit around sending query letters forever, and it's just important that people know that you don't have to do that, and that there you can make a great movie, you know. And there are some awesome movies people, I think, forget, you know, the French New Wave breathless was a micro budget. It was under $100,000 and you know, some of these great movies for lovers, only made by the Polish brothers, was shot for like, zero and made $500,000 and but more than that, it was, you know, they made a really cool romantic movie. And so you can make really good stuff for not, not a lot of money. And so you shouldn't feel like you have to wait around for some benevolent producer to sort of land in your lap and do it for you, or some dentist with, you know, more money than than he knows what to do with, to invest in your film. You can, you can do it with, with a relatively small amount of money.

Dave Bullis 48:39
Yeah, you know that that's something I've been talking to Shawn about, you know, in a lot of my intros, about talking about this whole, you know, don't wait around, you know, figure out what you have at your disposal location wise. You know, what I call the resource list. You know, locations, actors and like, sort of like props. So if you can make those lists, and you can sort of brainstorm and sort of reverse engineer a script, because that way you're not, you know, if I, if I know my, my uncle owns an abandoned house somewhere. How could I use that for a film, you know? Or even if I use my own living room? I had a friend of mine who shot a film of his in his own living room, and he later regretted it, but because he wanted to do all this blood stuff, and he did it all, but then he said, Look, that smell got in the house. And so if you So, there's a tip, you're gonna use blood a lot, you know, a lot of blood. Maybe not. Don't do that in your own living room. But, yeah, but yeah, you know. And I think again, you know, Jason Brubaker calls it backyard Indy. I think again, this is going to be the Hallmark Sean, where you have to be able to sort of make a film in a very minimal location, with with very minimal locations, actors, props and beat and be able to to tell the best story you can. And I think that's going to sort of be like the Hallmark now, with how you know, you can sort of, you know, build your career from that

Shawn Whitney 49:56
Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. And I think that, you know, make a list of your resources is really important, and extend that list, not just to, you know, cool stuff that you have lying around and cool locations that you have, but also to your skills and the skills and the skills of people around you know, if you're like Gareth Edwards and you can do great compositing and great, you know, visual, you know, VFX on your computer, that's a resource also. Or if you can, you know, blackmail your brother in law to do it for you, whatever it happens to be, that's, that's a resource that you should, you should, you know, you should make the movie that you can, not the movie that you want, because it's, you know, what you've been told is the right kind of movie. Yeah

Dave Bullis 50:44
I definitely agree. So Shawn, where can people find you out online?

Shawn Whitney 50:48
They can go to our Facebook page. They can just, I'm sure, search on Facebook to micro budget film lab, or our website is microbudgetfilmlab.com and they can find us there.

Dave Bullis 51:01
Are you on Twitter or Facebook? Well, I'm sorry you already said Facebook. So you're on Twitter or anything else.

Shawn Whitney 51:06
I'm on Twitter. A little bit Twitter I've never really gotten into we do. I do have a YouTube channel that I'm slowly adding material to, but those the primary locations at this point are Facebook and the website.

Dave Bullis 51:22
Shawn Whitney, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, sir.

Shawn Whitney 51:26
Thank you very much for having me. It's been great talking to you.

Dave Bullis 51:28
Oh, it's been great talking to you as well. And I wish the best of luck with everything.

Shawn Whitney 51:32
Thank you. You too. Good luck in China.

Dave Bullis 51:37
Thank you very much, Shawn. I'll talk to you soon, buddy.

Shawn Whitney 51:40
Okay, take care.

Dave Bullis 51:40
Bye! Bye!

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BPS 422: The Unscripted Journey of Steven Bernstein From Cinematographer to Storyteller

June 5, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

What if the greatest stories of our lives are the ones we never meant to write? On today’s episode, we welcome Steven Bernstein, a man whose journey through the world of cinema has been anything but predictable. A writer at heart, a cinematographer by accident, and a director by destiny, his career is a living testament to the art of surrendering to the unknown. From his early days at the BBC to the sets of Hollywood blockbusters, his story unfolds like an unplanned masterpiece—one that ultimately brought him full circle, back to the thing he always loved: writing.

In this profound conversation, Steven Bernstein recounts his journey from philosophy student to award-winning cinematographer, where his love of storytelling found an unexpected home behind the lens. He speaks of the curious ways life moves us, sometimes against our best-laid plans. “You tend to go with those things that are providing you income,” he muses, reflecting on how a passion for writing gave way to cinematography, leading him to films like Monster, Like Water for Chocolate, and Scary Movie 2. Yet, even as he shaped light and shadow for some of cinema’s most striking images, the writer within him never faded.

There is an undeniable poetry in the way Bernstein describes his work. He doesn’t just shoot a film; he composes it, layering meaning through framing, movement, and light. Every choice—a dolly push, a backlight, an asymmetrical composition—whispers something to the audience. It’s a language beyond words, one that he speaks fluently. “Everything to do with film is a language,” he explains. “And like any language, it’s made up of two parts: that which we present and that which we mean.”

His journey back to writing was not an easy one. After years of crafting imagery for others, he took a leap into directing his own films, starting with Decoding Annie Parker. It was a lesson in risk and resilience. At one point, he spent five years in poverty, refusing to return to the safety of cinematography. “If you hold out for the dream, maybe you achieve it,” he says. It is a stark reminder that the artist’s path is often one of sacrifice, but those who persist find themselves richer in ways beyond money.

Yet, Bernstein also understands the tension between art and commerce. Filmmaking is an expensive endeavor, and investors want guarantees. He describes the struggle of balancing creative vision with financial expectations, a dance between inspiration and limitation. And yet, some of the greatest filmmakers—Terry Malick, the Coen Brothers, Charlie Kaufman—have defied convention, proving that the most resonant stories often break the rules.

The conversation moves to the nature of collaboration, the unspoken alchemy that happens on a film set when everyone is in sync. He recalls moments from Monster, where the crew, sensing the gravity of a scene, chose to remain completely silent, whispering only when necessary. It was an unspoken agreement, an offering to the art being created. “It was one of the most magical moments I remember in any film I’ve ever worked on,” he recalls. It is a glimpse into the rare, sacred spaces where true storytelling happens—not in the scripts, but in the spaces between them.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:38
I have my next guest, he has been the director of cinematography for such films as monster directed by Patty Jenkins, who just directed Wonder Woman, Kicking and Screaming, directed by Noah Baumbach, and Like Water for Chocolate, he's also been the director of cinematography for comedies like the Water Boy, Half Baked, Scary Movie 2, White Chicks. And he's on action films like Swat. And he also wrote a film a textbook called film production. And his latest films decoding Annie Parker and dominion have included actors like Aaron Paul, John Malkovich, Helen Hunt, just to name a few. And currently, he's actually teaching some really cool online and offline seminars, which, again, I'll link to in the show notes. We're gonna talk about a lot of really cool stuff on this podcast episode with guest Steven Bernstein. So Steven, just to get started, you know, you've done a lot of really amazing work. You've done a lot of work as a cinematographer, you know, starting in, you know, the the late 80s, and you've done all these wonderful projects. And I wanted to ask how you got to that point. I mean, that's sort of the, the impetus to a lot of interviews, and a lot of, you know, people who've, who've been able to really ascend up that, that proverbial ladder is, you know, how did you get to that point? So what I want to ask you, Steve is, did you just to sort of start this off? Did you go to film school, you know, to be a cinematographer, or did you do have a or did you have a completely different sort of entry way into this industry?

Steven Bernstein 2:15
A completely different entry way. I had wanted to be a writer and read or majored in a philosophy at university. When I came out, there were various job opportunities of different types, one of which was at the BBC training program, which I enrolled in and studied there as a writer, director, researcher, and worked in long form documentary, great because it allowed me to travel a great deal, which was an interest of mine then and I Got to go to China, Hong Kong, Philippines, Vietnam, South America, South Africa during apartheid, what was then Rhodesia, later became Zimbabwe. So a lot of adventures, a lot of really interesting shoots, and some great experiences, but not really that satisfying, and not as it turned out, my calling, I came back to London and continued working at the BBC. About the time that music videos became of interest, the first few music videos would be produced, and I got to shoot a few of those, and soon I was in demand, not as a director or as a writer, but as a what was called, then a lighting cameraman, a cinematographer, and shot a lot of really interesting music videos for some really, then very big bands in the in the 80s, Eurythmics and so. On, and that led to interest from others, and got into commercials. Worked with the great Tony Kaye, did some really important commercials with him, some of which won the Cong, Golden Lion da D award, and then I was kind of on the map. Still, my intention always had been to be a writer. So it's funny the way life works in that you tend to go with those things that are providing you income. Inevitably, you can have good intentions, but overheads, life expenses being what they are, you do what you have to do. So I was shooting, enjoying it, particularly the music videos and the commercials, but I was still writing plays, films, short films, some of which appeared on Channel Four in the UK. Some got on the stage in London, but really nothing that provided me any sort of success. And then along came Like Water for Chocolate, my friend Gabrielle barista, and had been offered the work completing that movie, which had run into a little bit of trouble, and he couldn't do it. So they asked me to go to Mexico and finish the film, which I did. It's a big hit in America, the highest foreign highest grossing foreign language film of all time to date. And I then came to America to see if there was work to be had here. And that led to all those studio films, those comedies with Adam Sandler, with the weigh ins and so on. And that in turn led to my meeting now the great Noah Baumbach, and starting an independent films in America. And that in turn led to Monster. So I've tried to compress what is now seeming a very long career into a very short period of time, but a happy series of accidents, doing what I never intended to do, ending up at a place I never intended to come to, and somehow working my way back towards my first intention.

Dave Bullis 7:04
Yeah, you know. And it's funny how it all sort of comes forth full circle, right? You start off with one intention, you have. You find yourself in all these new situations, but you took advantage of those situations, and, you know, you turn them all into opportunities. And now you're, you know, and now we're going, you're going back to writing. And I think there's something poetic in that, because I think as when we as filmmakers and and whether we're writers or directors, when we start our careers, you know, we have an idea of what it's going to be. And usually everyone has an idea that it's going to be. You know, you're going to make a movie at 22 you're going to win Sundance, you're going to make a million dollars, and then you're gonna move to Hollywood. And, you know, Steve, it doesn't really work out that way. It's a lot of zig zags towards that sort of path. And, you know, and it's just a that's why I do this podcast, because there's so many interesting stories like yours, where it's not just one way. In fact, with all these episodes of so many different ways of doing things, but, but the point I'm trying to make is, you know that that's the thing about the intention that we have, and how life sort of throws out all these obstacles, and how we respond to them, and how we you how we respond to them really dictates, you know, what course our life is going to go on.

Steven Bernstein 8:19
I think you're absolutely right, and it goes to great complexity that life offers us, which is, do we earn $1 do we do what makes us the maximum amount of profit all the time, or do we hold on to an individual dream and simply wait it out? It's very interesting, because I've done both. When I started, I made no apology to say that was kind of an opportunist. I was taking what was offered to me. And look, it was a fun ride. I got to, again, travel a lot, both first at the BBC and then doing music videos. I got to meet really interesting people, particularly in the 80s, and the bands we were dealing with and the concerts we were doing and the videos we were doing, all very, very exciting, but really it was the work that was offered, and I took advantage of that later when I went to make my first film at Decoding Annie Parker, I had seen other people try to make that same transition to director, and they tried to keep their day job as it were, and none of them succeeded. So I resolved that I would give up everything to do with cinematography. I would give up anything to do that didn't directly point me towards directing, and that's what I did. And sadly, decoding did not happen quickly. We were promised money, that money went away. We were promised other money. That money went away, and I spent nearly five years unemployed and went through all my savings and most of my possessions, and was in abject poverty on the day we finally got funded, and then went to shooting. So both courses interesting, I think ultimately, the latter one more painful. You sacrifice a great deal, but if you hold out for the dream, maybe you achieve it.

Dave Bullis 10:22
Yeah, and, you know, holding out for the dream. It's kind of like Sid Hague, you know, he, people once asked him about his acting career, and he had actually given up. He actually, you know, sort of went away for a long while, because he said every, every role that he was offered was basically he became in as a man with a gun. He came into the door holding a gun, or he came in, you know, he's already in the room with the gun. And what happened was he came back because, you know, he actually liked it and, and finally, he said, You know, I realize now he's in movies with Tarantino and Robert and Rob Zombie. And he said, You know, it's like Winston Churchill said, never quit. Never quit, never quit.

Steven Bernstein 11:00
I think that's absolutely right. And there's a great example of this that we know I mean Patty Jenkins, a dear friend of mine. Patty was the director of Monster, which I shot. The story is interesting both how our relationship began and how Patty built her career. I was shooting the big second unit on SWAT, 21 cameras, tons of effects. We're spending millions of dollars blowing up the front of the library in Los Angeles, crashing planes, shooting rockets into cars. It was everything I thought I dreamt of when I was a young cinematographer. And then after four months of that, I got a call from Clark Peterson, the producer of monster, and known for years the film was in some trouble in Florida, and he asked if I would read the script, speak to the first time director, and consider leaving SWAT and coming to Florida to shoot monster, and I read the script. I thought was great. I spoke to patty on the phone, and was struck by her intelligence, her sensitivity, her command of the subject matter and of herself. I just sensed that she would be a great leader. And agreed, and came down at 1/20 of what I was getting paid on SWAT arrived in Florida to this tiny little film that was underfunded, under equipped and in real trouble, and we began working together. And for me, it was a epiphany, because I saw people of absolute and genuine integrity, completely believing in the art they were undertaking to create. And Charlize was self sacrificing, and the role was agonizing and difficult for her, but she pushed through, as did patty and then, of course, monster, when we finished it, no one would buy it, which a lot of people don't know, Blockbuster would be the only people that would put forward a not very good offer, which was taken with the proviso the film would get a very limited theatrical release. And amazing to them, and I guess to kind of everybody, the film got spectacular reviews in the papers. Patty ended up along with Charlize on Charlie Rose, and then we went to Berlin, where Charlize won the Silver Lion, then a Silver Bear rather than the Golden Globe, then the Oscar, of course, and the rest is kind of legend. Right after that, Patty was offered pretty much everything from studios, and you or I, or I don't mean to speak for you, let's say someone like me would have taken that opportunity work on a studio, be paid a million or 2 million. I know what she's offered, but a lot. But Patty had a vision of what she wanted to do, and remarkably, and this goes to her character. She said, No, these aren't the films that I want to do. She wanted to a film about Chuck Yeager. She had some other projects that were interesting to her, and she was going to hold out, as I did on my film, for what she was waiting for and what she believed she'd be adept at doing and achieving. And waited and waited. Did some television pilots, very successful ones, the killing which she did a great job on. And then along came a Wonder Woman. And Patty said, yeah, here's a strong woman with a voice that I find interesting, a subject matter that I've always liked. I'm gonna make this film. And what did it do this weekend? I mean, it was spectacular. And it's not just the box office revenue we generated, look at the reviews it's getting. So that's Patty's remarkable. And I think in structural and structural journey,

Dave Bullis 14:54
You know, I once met Kane Hotter, and Kane actually said the best. Actor. Actress that he ever worked with was Charlize Theron, and he said she was, not only is she was she very nice to everybody, with no airs whatsoever, but he said when Nick time came, she was absolutely amazing every single take, every single day. He's like, she never did a bad take, not one time. And when you see something like Monster, it's, you know, because Charlize is a beautiful woman, and then, you know, She transformed herself with all the makeup, and she really became that role. You know, I had on a couple different acting coaches, and they said that was the secret of acting, is that you don't act like like you're a person. You are that person.

Steven Bernstein 15:41
I think that's spot on. And, you know, look, I have the remarkable distinction of being the one cinematographer that managed to make Charlize Theron look bad. So it's very, very special. And I'm very proud of myself, and Charlize was very proud of me, but she and I worked very hard on making her look bad. One that goes to her great courage. Because, look, an actress's beauty is in part, her commodity in Hollywood. And the fact that Charlize, like Patty before her, had such an integrity of vision that she was willing to sacrifice her commodity value from the pursuit of art goes to the person that she is. And secondly, you're absolutely right about the quality of Charlize performance, and she does this strange hybrid of method acting and more classical approaches. She knows the material. She's always off page. She gets it completely. She intellectually understands and engaged is with the topic and knows her character and the character's arc, but in the moment, she is a method actor, she is completely engaged. And as your acting coach, a person that you interviewed, said she became that character, we believe she was that person completely. You know, there's a remarkable thing that happened on Monster one day where there was a key moment when Christina Ricci and Charlie, Sarah, and the two characters were saying goodbye to each other at a train station, and they both had worked their way into this emotional high, this there was a sense of intensity. And if you know film sets, as I'm sure you do the crews, you know, just carry on eating their sandwiches and lying down their track and doing what crews do. But something remarkable happened this day, and the crew just sensed that they wanted to support Christina and Charlize and what they were pursuing. So the crew decided unilaterally not to speak that day, and the crew was communicating with each other with hand signals and with pointing and occasionally a whispered word, but it was dead quiet on that set for the entire sequence, and it was one of the most magical moments I remember in any film I've ever worked on This sense of synergy of all of us working together to support what we felt was the achievement of great art. And I think it facilitated those two performances in that remarkable film.

Dave Bullis 18:13
I mean, and see stories like that are just so interesting to hear. You know, just working with different actors over the years and seeing all the different methods and different approaches. And it's very interesting to see to the crew, you know, responding in that method of recruit, responding and being very, very receptive, and helping Charlize and Christina Ricci and doing something like that. It's just very interesting to me when, because, because you mean, you've been, you've seen a lot of sets, Steve, where the crew ends up in the crew and the cast, they end up becoming like a family, because you're spending, you know, days into weeks, into months, making this film. And it almost becomes like a child for everybody, you know, and and everyone's a team player, and they all want to see, you know, what's best for this project that they've worked for so long on.

Steven Bernstein 19:00
I think you're exactly right. And this is the thing I think that's most attractive about film, is you do acquire a family for a few months, or a few weeks, or one of the films I did in India for a year, where you're all under great pressure, but you're all mutually dependent on each other, and you're isolated from the rest of the world, and you feel somehow special, not special, as in entitled, but that somehow the way you are mediating the world is different from the way you mediate the world in the civilian or Non film world. So the camaraderie and friendships that are built on film sets, to me, are still singular, and my closest friends all come from film and the most intense experiences in my life, generally have occurred on film sets. And I must tell you, there's never been a film that I've worked on. However bad the film may have been where it wasn't, followed, at least for me, by a profound depression that would last days or weeks. And I think I speak for virtually all film crews and actors. When you walk away from your family and just say, Okay, this films done. I'm going back home. Now, home doesn't seem like home. The set was home. And there's a peculiar transition stage, which some people never get over.

Dave Bullis 20:35
You know, you're absolutely right, Steve, I've been on a lot of sets like that where it's almost, you know, it's, I don't want to use this expression, but I will. It's almost like a high. It's almost like this, this feeling, this energy, actually, energy is a better word than it's his energy that you feel. And, you know, you just sort of whenever, especially when everybody is is gelling together, and everyone's there and they're professional, and they're all working together. It's that, you know, you get that feeling and you want to, you know. And when you leave and the project's over, you sort of go home and you're like, What am I going to do now? I guess I better watch Netflix and order pizza, right? It's like, but you want that feeling again, so much.

Steven Bernstein 21:15
No, absolutely right, to the point where it's like, maybe high is better because you're like an addict. You'll be walking down the street and you'll you'll see another film shooting. You sort of wander over thinking that you might be able to pick up on some of that energy. Maybe they'll invite you to lunch, but it's a it's something that you that you absolutely miss when you're not doing it. And listen, that's one of the problems I have when I moved from cinematographer to writer, director and producers. That when I was a cinematographer, I would be doing sometimes two features, sometimes even three a year. I'd be working all the time, and I'd be on those film sets with my, with my friends, with my with my film friend family. When you're a director, when you're a writer, in particular, you're locked in a room, you know, with a computer or with a fountain pen and no friends at all, just writing and writing and writing, and it's not as much fun. I'm down with Dorothy Parker, who said, I love having written. I hate writing. Well, that's, that's kind of my view. I'm very proud of my last script in particular dominion, the one with John Malkovich, and I'm very proud of decoding and Parker and the next one coming up. But still, the process of creating those stories, those scripts, very, very hard and very lonely.

Dave Bullis 22:37
It is a very lonely process. And you know, I wanted to ask Steve, you know, when you've, you know, worked all these years as an accomplished cinematographer, and you, and you go back to your first love, which was writing. As odd as this question sounds, was there any skills that translated? Because I think there was. And here's the one I one skill I think that really translated well. Was you, you will obviously lensing all these wonderful films and like, like Monster. You know, how that you, you know, have, you have that image in your mind. You have that, that sort of mind's eye where you're saying, okay, I can imagine, you know, we're opening up on this mountain range, or, I imagine we're opening up on this sort of dark night, and we can barely see. I imagine that helps a lot with your exposition when you're writing scripts. Because when you're writing, you know, this, these action lines, I imagine they're, they're very, very well told, because obviously you know exactly what it's gonna look like. Because, hey, you're a cinematographer, you know, and you can bring all those years of imagery and seeing all these different things to your script. Am I right or am I? Am I completely off a Steve,

Steven Bernstein 23:46
No, you're spot on. And go to the very essence of my philosophy and understanding of film. What I discovered both from first my reading when I was a student of philosophy, and then later as a writer than as a cinematographer, is that everything to do with film is a language, and we have to understand what a language is. A Language is inevitably made up of two parts, that which we intend to mean and that which we present to create that meaning, or what I think the philosophers called the signifier, that which the audience sees, and the signified that which we mean, the idea that we're trying to present. As a cinematographer, you realize that when you compose a shot in a particular way, you can create a certain feeling in an audience. You can even suggest an idea. When you push a camera forward on a dolly, for example, into a face you're saying to an audience, hey, what this character is about to say or do is important. That's not in a script, but the camera movement is the signifier. The idea of importance is the signified. And then I began analyzing everything I did as a cinematographer, and. As a language. If I light with a backlight, that's the signifier. It's backlight signified mystery or uncertainty, an asymmetrical composition that is the signifier. The signified, possibly a character who's alienated, or a film like wait until dark, a character who's at at risk to edit a shot where you do an extreme close up, then go to a very wide shot where David Lean might have done you're saying, Oh, here's a person in a small little landscape. That's the signifier. The signifier is the insignificance of the human condition, perhaps, or the weakness of that individual at that moment. So when I realize all those things, I realize that everything I put in a written script is again a matter of what I signify and what it means, how it is indicated, and ultimately, what I'm trying to convey to an audience. But I also realized that not everything can be done with the spoken word, that sometimes the most powerful, although the most engratic elements, are not written but implied with the the photographic image. So as I write, I'm always thinking, is it better for the character to say this, or is it better to have the character say very little and imply something simply with a composition or a camera movement, or perhaps with the music or with the rhythm of the editing. If I begin to look at film as I suggest, everybody does, as a series of integrated languages, each with their own set of signifiers and each signifying different things, then I don't feel an obligation to put everything into a dialog, and the dialog can become more economical and more real, and the medium as a whole, integrating all these different processes becomes more effective. Does that make sense?

Dave Bullis 26:50
Oh, it makes perfect sense. You know, as you were describing, you know, your process, I was reminded of, there will be blood and There Will Be Blood the first 20 minutes, you know, there's no, there's no dialog whatsoever. It's a lot of of imagery. It's a lot of, you know, we see Daniel Plainview as he's coming down into that, into that pit, looking for gold. He doesn't find gold. However, he finds oil. And that becomes, he becomes that oil baron, oil tycoon, sociopathic businessman. But that first 20 minutes, there's absolutely no dialog. And when I first saw that movie, I was like, wow, this is a really bold choice. Because, I mean, I imagine the pitch meeting for that you say, if you're a pitch meeting on the first 20 minutes, there's no dialog whatsoever, you know, it's just kind of, you know it, but, but, you know, once you start getting into the movie, it's, I mean, I thought it was absolutely phenomenal. And, I mean, the only reason it lost best picture was because it was up against the No Country for Old Men. And, you know, I which is another movie, very heavy in imagery. Have you? Have you seen either those movies Steven?

Steven Bernstein 27:56
I've seen them both, and loved them both. And I would throw into that mix Terry malix films, Days of Heaven, which was the film, I think that inspired me more than any other to be a cinematographer. You know, malex characters relationship to nature and nature being indifferent. And again, the visceral effect that nature's power, sublime majesty and indifference to us as as living, breathing souls, is important. So in a terry Malik film, all the time, he's cutting away to shots of nature. Again, as you say, a pitch meeting or a description to some investor, you're saying, well, a lot of these shots won't have any obvious meaning or won't advance the story to the next plot point, but it'll be laden with meaning. It will make us understand how indifferent nature and a god or an absent God is to us, and how that should make us potentially feel. And he does that almost exclusively in Days of Heaven, with images, not with dialog, he's combining languages. My feeling is that as a writer and as a director, you don't write your film in spoken language exclusively. You write your film in five different languages like a very skilled linguist, and you combine those together to create meanings and choosing which language to use based on which is most effective and which goes to your audiences sensibilities.

Dave Bullis 29:29
You know, that's very true because, you know, as I've been, because I my first love is writing as well, and when, when I'm writing a screenplay, there's so many different pairs of eyes to sort of look at it through, you know, there's an editor's eyes, there's, there's, you know, the director's eyes. Sometimes you're thinking even in terms of being a producer, you know what I mean, and you're and you you're thinking of all these different of different ways and then, but when you're adding all these layers into your actual writing, you know, you're really, you know, because you're trying to sort of hook the reader, as they say, you know, hook the reader in the first couple of pages, but you have to hook them throughout the whole story. You're trying to always, you know, keep that tension in there. You're trying to figure you're sort of, you know, wearing a lot of different hats. You're doing a lot of different things at the micro and the macro levels.

Steven Bernstein 30:24
You're right, and it's very, very hard, particularly we start talking about producing, because, you know, the person or persons who may determine whether your film gets made may have never made a film, and may have no understanding of cinematic language, of what composition does camera movement. May not have seen a terry Malik film, may not have seen Paul Thomas Anderson film, may not have seen a Coen Brothers film. They may have read McKees book on story and take that template and apply it to your script. And if your script does not use that template. They may feel that your script is a failed one, and this is difficult for all writers and all artists to determine. Do you do what the orthodoxy in our film community suggests, or go giving you a better chance of getting your film made. Or do you protect your singular vision? Be it part of that orthodoxy or not, in the belief that you know better how best to express the ideas you hope to express. It's it's interesting because unlike other art forms, ours is so very expensive that there is a inhibiting element, and that's the one of finance people backing a film want to know their investment is safe, and therefore are looking for absolute metrics to determine what will make your film a good investment for them. They're not interested in your ideas about how to engage an audience viscerally with a composition. They want to know that if the rules of which they may be aware are applied, does that mean your film will succeed, and if it will, will they make more money? And that's a very difficult way to approach filmmaking.

Dave Bullis 32:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine, you know, we he and I were just discussing this as well, because, you know, he was a part of a film. The film was already, everything was casted, they were about to shoot, and then suddenly it just all went away. And he said, Dave, it's happened too many times in my career to count. And he says, it just, you know, it happens sometimes where, you know, the money goes away, and then there's been other times where he's been pitching a project for for years and years and years, and it's finally, you get a financier, and you can, you're able to finally find that money. I had seen obvious on this podcast, and he was discussing how he found the money for Dallas Buyers Club. And, you know, it was just one of those things where he had a connection from years ago who was willing to help him out, out of a bind. And it was, you know, one of those cases where your network really is your net worth,

Steven Bernstein 33:11
No question. I mean, you've got to build relationships and contacts, and then you've got to convince people to give you their money to make your film. And again, there's a natural conservative factor in all that, and that they don't want you to take a lot of risk, because they don't know that that will generate money for them necessarily. I mean, we all want the investor who says, just go ahead and make what you believe. But those are rare. Most investors want to get involved and say, Okay, we're giving you this money. What's our best way of guaranteeing this? Are you definitely going to have three acts, and are your plot points going to come on the right pages and all the rest of it? And again, that may or may not be the best way to write a script, but that's what they want, because that's what they've been told is the way to success, and that, as I say, could be very inhibiting for a writer, for creative artists. I'm sure that Terry may like doesn't work to that template, you know, I'm sure Charlie Kaufman doesn't work that template. I'm pretty sure that the Coen brothers don't, and they're some of the most successful, important filmmakers we have working. So these are some of the tough decisions that filmmakers have to make, particularly when you go to finance your film, because you want that money, but you also want to make a great movie.

Dave Bullis 34:26
Yeah, you know, absolutely. And I, you know when we when as because writing is my first love as well. And when we're writing these scripts, sometimes there's a tendency to write with that producers hat, because you're wondering, oh, would this be able to be, you know, will this be too much money? Will I be able to even obtain this, you know, stuff, you know, and that's sort of as I find writing the first dress, we have to kind of sort of brush that aside and just sort of focus on just telling the best single story possible that we can tell. And then later on, when you're maybe doing rewrites, or you're in different meetings, and you can sort of take things out and maybe add things in, you. Yeah, and then sort of, you know, the story sort of evolves, and it kind of ties in with what we were talking about before, where, you know, we set off in the beginning with these expectations that's going to go into a straight line, and then suddenly it's zig zagging all over the map and, and we're, you know, we're, you know, finding these obstacles. And we're, we're trying to turn these obstacles into either they can either set us back, or we can move forward with them.

Steven Bernstein 35:22
You make a great point. And I always try to write my first draft in seven days or less. And there's a reason for that. I call it a slot draft, not a first draft, because what I want to do is write so quickly that I don't have time to think so. First, there's the idea of just an intuitive understanding of character. But also I find that I write to know what I think that if I try to outline before I begin writing, the ideas are only are only notional. I really don't know my characters. I don't know my story that Well, I think I do, and I can try to plot it out, and I can draw all sorts of diagrams and put all sorts of index cards up, but it's not really fully realized. Then, if I take a different approach and simply start writing and say, I'm gonna write 120 pages in seven days, what I discover is that by the time I get to that last page, I have developed an understanding of character. I have developed an understanding of what the narrative should be, and I might even understand some of the subtexts. Then I go back and I begin the real process of writing, which is rewriting, but I couldn't have done that if I tried to make that first draft perfect, and you talked about wearing your producers hat. I think it's essential. I think you made a very good point that when you're writing, you're thinking of nothing except those characters. I don't care how long a dialog scene goes on for, or how outrageous what the characters say are or off, or if they begin in a Proustian fashion, talking about things that have nothing to do with the story at all. Because, in fact, that's what people do in real life, is talk about things that don't necessarily have to do with the advancement of their individual plot. And then when you write that version, that slop version, and look at it, to me, it is the door to all things, you come to an understanding of everything that's important about your film, and then you can put those things, those things in when you go back to rewrite. It's a crazy way of writing, but it works very well for me.

Dave Bullis 37:30
Well, you know, I actually think that's a very good way of writing, because even when I have, you know, started writing stuff in the past, and even now, sometimes when I sit down to start writing, one of two things happens. Number one is you get distracted very easily. I think as this happens to everybody, where you know your phone chimes, or somebody at your door, your friend calls you and says, Hey, Steve, can you help me move? I have to, you know, you take me to the airport. And the second thing is, you have paralysis through analysis where you're sitting at your desk, or wherever you're writing, and suddenly you're just kind of like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if, and you start brainstorming, and you're just, basically, you're just spinning your wheel, so to speak.

Steven Bernstein 38:13
No, exactly, right? And I think this is to me, it was a breakthrough. You know, I was so concerned with failing that I was preventing myself from succeeding. So when I was convinced ultimately that I should write badly, I sat down and wrote the worst script I possibly could, and when I was finished, it was truly terrible, but it pointed the way to a much better script, a script that was so good, this is what I did with dominion, that when I sent it to John Malkovich, he signed up immediately, and it was a low budget film. But John loved the writing of that script, because the dialog seemed so natural and so imaginative to him. If I had written dominion to an outline, my characters would have been speaking to deliver the next plot point, to get to the next subject, to keep the story moving along as it had been outlined. But the way I wrote to many was I simply had my characters talk about things that were important to them, and then went back on the next draft and then imposed a form on that and it was much more natural. The writing was much better, and it's a system that simply works. I say to all writers, and I have a lot of systems that work with me. Don't try to be perfect on the first draft, or don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Simply write as quickly as you possibly can, and then discover what you always meant to say and never realized it.

Dave Bullis 39:47
You know, I like that approach, Steve, where, you know, you gave yourself permission to fail, and you basically said, I'm gonna write the worst possible thing. You know, I was talking to another friend, a colleague of mine Jason Brubaker, And he had a theory about, you know, guys who always talk about making a film. They always, you know, and you've met guys like this, too, Steve, where they're always saying things like, Oh, I have this great idea for a film, you know me and my buddies, blah, blah, blah, but they never actually make it. And the and his theory, Jason's theory, was that the reason they don't make it is because if it does suck, if it is bad, it's a reflection of them as an artist, and it kind of encompasses their entire career in sort of one foul swoop. So if they do write a bad screenplay or make one bad movie. Well, you suck. You're never going to make anything. Do you know what I mean Steve?

Steven Bernstein 40:45
I know exactly what you mean. And I take just the majority of people, not just in film, but in life, most people would rather talk about something than do it. Most people rather criticize others than do it. Those who criticize and don't do are always safe because they can't possibly fail, and can always make clear how superior they are, because they can criticize that which you did look I, when I made dominion, a lot of people said, Oh, well, Stephen, you had trouble finishing it. There was some money issues, etc, all of which were true and those were resolved. But the thing is, I did it. Had I simply not done it and watched others, I don't know if I would have the sense of self that I have. I'm proud of what I've done. I've done it because I've taken risks. But you go to a very important point. If you want to make films, you have to make films, and if you're going to do that, it means you're going to take risks. It means people are going to criticize and ridicule you, and you may even fail. But I'd much rather do and fail than observe and criticize others.

Dave Bullis 41:56
Yeah, and that is beautiful, Steve, because honestly, that is so true. You know, I think we all have somebody in our lives, or we've known somebody that like that in our lives, where they don't want to actually do anything. They may talk a big game, or they constantly criticize what other people are doing and kind of like downplay it in that sort of condescending, sort of very almost like jaded type of attitude where they're like, Oh yeah, that you're gonna make a movie this weekend. That's cool. You know what I mean? They just like they and people like that. You know they never do anything. They're always just sort of criticizing others from the comfort of their couch. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Steven Bernstein 42:36
I completely know what you mean. And I look I pay tribute to anyone who takes a risk in their life of any kind. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't sometimes be safe, but you only, I think, have one life. You only have a few opportunities, and when they're presented to you, seize them. I know when we started decoding any Parker, we had spent a long time raising them on it, and I got a little bit of money from India, some from Canada. I was very lucky, and got the tax credit in California. And we were very, very close, within, like, $100,000 what we needed. And the producers all got the phone with each other, and we had to decide what to do. And at that point, Helen, haunted read the script and loved it, and had signed up for a very reasonable sum of money. We had Samantha Morton Helen, of course, won an Oscar. Samantha been nominated for two I had met Aaron Paul, and we had become fast friends. And Aaron Paul, who was at the height of his fame with Breaking Bad, had agreed to do it. Corey Stahl and I had gotten close as he had read the script, and we talked about the evolution of the characters, Rashida Jones, Bradley, Whitford, just this incredible cast we put together. And we were on the phone considering whether we should pull the plug because we didn't have quite enough money, and I ultimately decided that we would go ahead, and I realized it was a huge risk, and we nearly had to shut down. I think we did shut down for a day at the end of a week, and then we went and raised more money, and we managed to finish the film. Went on to win the Sloan award. The Hamptons had won Best Actress for Samantha Morton at Seattle, won the Milan Film Festival, two or three awards there, raised a couple of million dollars for charities, etc. We pulled it off, but there was a moment in that process where we had to decide whether to play it safe or to take a considerable risk. And I think those moments come often in film, because I think it was Hitchcock that once said that drama is life with the boring bits taken out. I would suggest that filmmaking is life with the com bits taken out. So it's a constant state of risk and near hysteria and certain failure. And from that you extract, hopefully. Be a film and a bit of a life.

Dave Bullis 45:03
And, you know, as we talk about your projects, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, when you started to actually go from that cinematographers sort of chair, so to speak, to being a director, you know, what were some of the things that you've picked up? I mean, because you've, you've had a lot of really cool directors, like Patty being the first example I can think of, you know, what were some of the things that you saw these directors were doing when they were talking to actors, or maybe even talking to you as a cinematographer, you know, and talking about, you know, a shot list. And here, and hey, Steven, here's my storyboard, you know, what are some of the the great things that they have done over the years that you sort of took into your projects.

Steven Bernstein 45:42
Well, it wasn't just pat, it was Jon Favreau. I worked with a couple of times, Jon and I are friends. Noah Baumbach, of course, I did three films with Noah Baumbach, which was fantastic. So I had an opportunity to work with lots of Taylor Hackford, of course, I mean, lots of other great directors, and I took something of value from each of them, certainly always grateful to my training at the BBC and always grateful to all my stage actors and what I learned there. But I learned, as I observed, about different management systems, different leadership methodologies and different ways of working with actors and with with crews. Noah and I, before we did both kicking and screaming and Mr. Jealousy and Highball, spent a lot of time prepping we were in Noah's place in in Greenwich Village, and we would go through the entire script, scene by scene, shot by shot, determining not only what we plan to shoot, but why we're shooting, what what the camera would mean. Going back to what I was saying before, about signifier and signified, again, wide shot or closed shot, Noah would show me clips from movies that he liked and said, this is very important to me, could we infuse this sequence with the same feeling from this film? I remember on Mr. Jealousy, he'd been much influenced by the French Nouvelle Vague, so we were using those kind of circular fade outs, and even the music that he chose was very much in that style. But also compositionally, the way the camera moved and the way I lit, it all had to be in the style of the Nouvelle dog. So that was exciting. That's what's so great about a collaborator like Noah, is that he had a very clearly determined vision of not only what his characters were, but stylistically, what he wanted to do. And that would be a great starting place for me to then run with some of my own ideas. I bring him books from painters or from designers or from other filmmakers, photographers for that period. So what about this? What if we did this, like this and so on, and we would integrate some of my ideas into his vision? Patty, I think I told you about her focus very much on actors. How Patty, at the end of every performance, rather than speaking to any of the crew, would drop the headphones and make a beeline directly for the actor. It doesn't matter what anyone else had to say to her. Her first point of contact after a take was those actors to tell them that they had been observed, that they're being protected, that someone is listening. Because that's what actors want most of all, is to know the actor be an experienced director or an experienced director. Those actors want to know that there's someone watching, protecting them, creating a rarefied, safe environment where someone's making sure that their performance is okay, and we'll tell them honestly if it isn't. And Patty really did that to a great degree. Jon Favreau, it was the atmosphere on set. It's kind of like he felt strongly that what happens on set somehow appears on screen. So his sets were fun and light, full of energy, full of comedy, and very, very gentle hand that everyone felt protected and facilitated, and again, that lent itself to what appeared on screen. Taylor Hackford, very, very well prepared and would cover things from every possible angle, knowing that whatever he planned, he knew that he might alter it in the cutting room, and wanted to make sure that he had plenty of material to cut that with. So for me, 30 years of observing some of the best directors in the world was a wonderful education for me, and it informs everything I do now. But was even better educationally, was watching some truly terrible directors get it wrong. And I got to watch that as well, and I'm not going to mention their names, but it helped me to know what not to do. So to accumulate all that knowledge and to be able to walk onto the first feature that I directed knowing what these great directors had done and what the bad directors had done, and what I should or shouldn't do was a huge help to me. It, it still is.

Dave Bullis 50:29
And you, you mentioned this too, Steven, you have 30 years of experience, you know, you you have, you know, started out as a writer. You became this accomplished cinematographer. You've won this just plethora of awards. You got to see all these great, sort of, you know, all these great directors, and all the things that they, they did, right and, and sort of put this all together for your own projects. But I know now you're, you're also doing some seminars, which, you know, you're, you know, gonna, gonna impart all this knowledge, which I think is phenomenal. So could you just, you know, talk a little bit about some of the seminars you have coming up?

Steven Bernstein 51:02
Absolutely, for years, really starting back to right about the time of that the BBC, I began teaching if somebody was a writer and wanted to know something about cinematography, because I had done both those things I was uniquely able to explain and a plain language for a writer or director what a cinematographer does, and then later, when I began directing, I could go into great detail to people about what each below the line crew member did. And when I was producing, I could explain to the investors why we needed money for different things, what the post production crew would be doing, what the on set crew would be doing, why we needed as many makeup people as we needed, and so on. So I was always teaching, and sometimes formally, I taught at the International Film School. In London, I had a film school of my own, and in the UK, in London, I set a film school up in New Brunswick in Canada. I've taught at universities including USC here and others all around the country, and I wrote a book about film production that covers all these things. And then finally, I just thought, you know, I should formalize this and make it available to a lot more people than I've made it available to in the past. So we're taking right now six of my most popular lectures, one on making the independent film, how you actually put together an independent film, how you find the money, how you use that money to shoot the film, how you take it through posts and get into sales and distribution? Another one about for stills photographers, because so many stills photographers have come to me and saying, hey, I want to be a cinematographer. I bought this camera. I've done stills work, but how is cinematography different from photography, and particularly with lighting? So I've done that so many directors and producers want to know about cinematography, how it works, so I I've running a course on cinematography for non cinematographers. And so many actors I've worked with, both on stage and on screen, feel uncomfortable when they first step onto a film set, and I wanted to run a seminar so that actors would know what it's like to come onto a film set, and what the assistant directors do, what the the first assistant directors do, what the the director wants, what the cinematographer wants. So, so all those things very useful for them. And then going back to something you and I talked about a lot in this, in this, in this discussion, is I wanted very much to run a course for writers so they would understand the technical aspects of filmmaking, and they could employ that in their writing to make them better screenwriters. So yeah, we set that up. We've got a website called somebody studios.com you can see all the seminars there. People can sign up, I think that they from the time they sign up, they've got a month to watch the individual seminar they've selected, or they can sign up for multiple ones. And the course has been very successful in the past. Not only do I teach the course, but then afterwards, I have a Q and A and we keep the lines open, and we make sure people have access to me in the future for advice. I want to help others, as I've been helped over all these many years, and I really very much looking forward to it, July the 15th. We go live with everything. So we're getting very close to that date. So I hope people go to the website, pick something out for themselves, and see what they might be able to learn.

Dave Bullis 54:53
And I will also link to link to the your seminars in the show notes, you know, as well as any other. Site you have Steven, and it's just great too, because it's something that I've learned over the years. Whenever I want to take a seminar or a webinar or read a book or a filmmaking book, one thing I always my one sort of barrier to entry to reading it or buying it is the person has had to have some kind of experience. I think you've also seen it, Stephen, where you sort of see a book in the in maybe in a Barnes and Nobles, or on Amazon, and you see that they're, you know, the person that wrote it has never written a screenplay or never actually made it, made a film. And you say to yourself, well, what would they possibly know about something that they've never done? It's, a lot like me teaching you how to build a car and then saying, Well, I'm not a mechanic, nor have I ever designed one. I see you. You've actually, you've been there, you know, you've done that. You've done it many, many times over 30 years. And you know, and again, that's why I was blown away by having you on this podcast. Because you know, you've, you've done I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, Steven half baked, I remember watching that movie on repeat over and over again, you know, growing up, because it was just absolutely hilarious. I mean, you've been able to sort of go in and out of, you know, comedy with half baked in Scary Movie two into Monster, which is more of a of a, not only as a drama, but it's also a personal introspective of the of these two women. Who are, you know, who are, you know, literal and figurative monsters, and then, you know, you now, you're doing your own projects, so it's always good to learn from somebody who's actually has gone out there and done it.

Steven Bernstein 56:33
Well, thank you. And I have done a lot of different things. I'm a producer now, a director, a writer, cinematographer. It's not to always been easy, but it's interesting. When you get to farther down the road, you realize how each of these things informs the other. I'm a better producer because I was a cinematographer. I'm a better director because I'm a writer and a cinematographer. And it's not just the films that have been made. I guess, in the last 18 months, I've been commissioned to write five other major feature films. It's been a very, very busy period for us. We have a TV series that's an advanced stage of development. And the reason I am now writing so quickly and so efficiently is that I'm borrowing from my other experiences as a producer, as a cinematographer, as a director, and I realize what I need to write and what I don't I understand what will work best and what works most efficiently, and it's a help. So look, if I can help others understand all these things based on my experience, I'm more than happy to impart it to them.

Dave Bullis 57:41
And you know, Steven, I know we're just about out of time. I want to again, say thank you so much for coming on and imparting your wisdom here for the past hour. And just in closing, where can people find you out online? You have any other social media links, and also you may, and just to give that seminar link again,

Steven Bernstein 57:57
Well, it's the key one to go to, and this links to pretty much everything to do with me is somebodystudios.com you can also find me, Steven Bernstein, writer, director online, and there's usually links to our courses or what's going on in my life there. Steve Bernstein, director, writer on Instagram as well. And of course, I say somebodystudios.com is pretty much available on all social media platforms, so we really hope that people might join us. Thanks

Dave Bullis 58:30
And everyone I will link to that in our show notes on the Dave bulls podcast. It's at davebullis.com Twitter, you can find me at dave_bullis. Steven Bernstein, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, sir.

Steven Bernstein 58:43
My very great pleasure. Was a great talk. Thank you so much.

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BPS 421: Behind the Scenes of Sharknado: Turning Sci-Fi Madness into Storytelling Gold with Andrew Shaffer

May 29, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The mind is a curious trickster, delighting in dreams where logic pirouettes in absurdity. In today’s extraordinary episode, we welcome Andrew Shaffer, a humorist and New York Times bestselling author whose wit slices through the storms of reality with a twinkle in his eye and a chainsaw in hand.

From the earliest pages of his life, Andrew Shaffer was destined to dance with the ridiculous and sublime. As a child, he devoured horror and science fiction with a ravenous appetite, only to find himself drawn back to these imaginative playgrounds after a detour through the hallowed halls of literary fiction. His journey led him, almost inevitably, to the playful chaos of “How to Survive a Sharknado,” a manual for the absurd that demands both laughter and preparation.

In the dance of ideas, Andrew revealed how the birth of the Sharknado survival guide was as spontaneous as a tornado filled with teeth. Inspired by the original cult film, he offered his humorous talents when Random House and SyFy decided to create a companion book. Imagine being tasked with making flying sharks scientifically plausible; as he put it, “I had to talk to a marine biologist and ask, not could this happen, but how it might happen.” It is in such delightfully impossible questions that the spirit of creativity is set loose.

Throughout the conversation, there was a beautiful lightness, the kind one finds when nonsense is taken seriously. Andrew’s research involved binge-watching over 30 sci-fi films—some genuine, some fabricated solely for the book—to weave an interconnected universe of mayhem. When asked how one might survive a Sharknado, he smiled into the void and said, “The answer in the book is simple: Stand and fight. Grab a chainsaw.” It is a lesson not just for storms of sharks, but for all the monstrous whirlwinds that life throws at us.

Yet beneath the chuckles and chainsaws, Andrew’s words echoed a deeper wisdom. Too much meta-awareness, he warned, robs a story of its soul. “If everybody’s in on the joke,” he said, “then the joke itself isn’t that funny anymore.” Ah, but isn’t that true of life itself? When we cling too tightly to cleverness, we risk missing the raw wonder that makes each absurdity luminous.

Perhaps the most chilling revelation of the day was the invincibility of the ghost shark, a creature birthed from sci-fi chaos. Manifesting from toilets, swimming pools, and even water bottles, it served as a reminder: some forces cannot be outrun; they must be met with courage, humor, and an open heart.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
This is a very important podcast, because we're going to teach you in this episode to how to survive a Sharknado. Now, Sharknado three is going to air on the Sci Fi Channel on July the 22nd this is going up the day before, but if you're a subscriber, it's going up about one to two days early, so you can get even even quicker preparation for battling this Sharknado. I know you're all very interested, so I'm gonna get right into it. And without further ado, here's the interview with Andrew Schaefer, author of How to Survive a Sharknado. Joining me today is Andrew Shaffer. Andrew is a humorist and New York Times best selling author who works include the great philosophers who failed at love the Goodreads choice semi finalists, 50 shames of Earl Grey's, oh, great tea. And sci fi is how to survive a sharknado and other natural, unnatural disasters. Uh, Andrew, how are you doing today, sir?

Andrew Shaffer 2:51
I'm awake. It's about 3pm here on the west coast.

Dave Bullis 2:58
So, very cool. Um, so could you just give us a little bit about your background, and you know how you got started as an author?

Andrew Shaffer 3:05
How I got started as an author? I've always sort of been, I was always into reading as a child, and I sort of thought that the natural thing then was to start writing, and I didn't, I don't think I realized early on that not everybody who, who reads books, you know, gets the inclination to also write them. It just felt like a very natural progression to me. But early on, as a child, I was very much into horror and science fiction, any type of mystery, any type of genre fiction, was really what I sort of devoured at the time. Then I took a little detour in terms of I went to college, where I studied at at the University of Iowa with with writers workshop students there, which is a very it's much more of a literary fiction sort of training. And I got into that for a little bit a while, but I found myself sort of gravitating more back towards genre fiction, young adult, just stuff that that that was sort of more entertaining, I thought. And that's kind of where I find myself right now. Is going from maybe sort of more of a literary non fiction books, moving more into genre, stuff like the How to Survive a Sharkndo,

Dave Bullis 4:37
Yeah, very cool. And that's a very important book, because we all know sharknados can happen. So I wanted to ask you, how did you actually pitch this book? I mean, did you actually pitch it to sci fi as as like you? Because I know in the book, you cover other of their movies too,

Andrew Shaffer 4:58
Yeah. I mean, the great thing about this play. So I watched Sharknado, the first movie, and I let my agent know I was like, if you know, if there's, like, a novelization or something, I'd love to do that. Of course, there wasn't with the first movie, but then she heard that Random House and the Sci Fi Channel were looking to do something with the second movie, some type of tie in. And they had the idea to do a survival guide, sort of like the Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks. And it was something that I did a so I don't think, I don't think originally, you know, they thought, really thought of me, because I wasn't writing any type of genre stuff at the time. I just had parody come out, though, 50 shames of Earl gray. So they kind of said, well, you kind of do the humor writing. And I did a sample for it. They ended up liking it, and asked me to write the book then. So it came together pretty fast. I had to watch about, I don't know it was like 30 or 40 different sci fi movies to to actually write the book and sort of ties them all together, sort of in one universe.

Dave Bullis 6:10
Okay, excellent. So you know when, when you did actually pitch to sci fi? Were they really open to using all their other movies as well?

Andrew Shaffer 6:18
We had a list to go off of. I mean, I had some that I wanted to use that we weren't able to but they had a list of, you know, somewhere, probably about 50 or 60, that they had licensing that we could work with. And then there was just so much that we're off limits. So it was basically I had to go with what they gave me, and then sort of narrow it down from there. And then we actually ended up creating a bunch for the for the guidebook. So there's about 10 or 12 in there. I think that that are actually unique and original to the book.

Dave Bullis 6:51
And what's cool is because if you haven't seen all the sci fi movies, you can actually go through and try to figure out which ones are created and which ones are actually real movies?

Andrew Shaffer 7:02
Yeah, that's, that's the funny thing. I've had some people pick up the book and go, How did you come up with some of this crap? I'm like, I didn't. It's just, you know, you can actually go. They're like, there should be a movie about this. And I'm like, well, guess what? You know, you you can go see a Corona conda movie. And it's pretty amazing.

Dave Bullis 7:24
So could you elaborate, you know, on some of the monsters that you wanted to use, but you couldn't?

Andrew Shaffer 7:32
I don't, I don't even really remember exactly which ones we couldn't use offside my head, but I know that, you know, there were, we had to sort of narrow it down to, to what, what was sort of, we didn't want to have, like, like 30 different shark based ones, you know. So there were some, but we used use most of the, the big Sci Fi Channel movies that that they've done that were kind of hits, like shark to pus and coronaconda and stuff, even stone eight. Oh, so it was, so it was, it there wasn't really a lot that was left on the cutting room floor I'd say,

Dave Bullis 8:16
Okay, interesting. So, you know, so when you're you're writing this book, and you're piecing this all together. Did you actually watch each individual movie and sort of make a list and make a lot of notes on each

Andrew Shaffer 8:27
Oh my gosh, yeah, I had to watch every, every movie that we included 3,4,5, times to really pick up everything that was going on and kind of look at different angles and stuff so, so it was, really, I approached it sort of like I did my non fiction books, which was just a lot of research, and then I had to try to figure out scientific explanations for how some of this stuff happened in the real world. And, you know, they're that's not something they're thinking about really. When they're making the movie, they're thinking, make something entertaining, but to write it down in a book, I was like, I need to come up with reasons why, you know, sharks can survive when flying around inside of a tornado. You know, how, what? How do I make that sort of believable? And so I, like, talked to like a marine biologist for that. And I was like, How did you know, is this, you know, not, could this happen, but, but what's a logical way to make this, you know, happen?

Dave Bullis 9:30
So when you, when you interviewed that marine biologist, did he or she know what Sharknado was before you talked to them?

Andrew Shaffer 9:37
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. The biologist spoke to she was a, she was a huge fan of these sci fi movies, actually, and and was, you know, really thrilled to answer my questions and stuff. She's like, she's like, we really love them. They're, you know, they're, I don't want to say, use the word terrible. I forget what. Word she used. But I mean, they're just, they're just entertaining. You can turn your mind off while watching them. And you don't have to worry about the scientific stuff behind it. They said this just, just for pure, you know, entertainment value,

Dave Bullis 10:22
You know, I was just, you know, when you brought that up, I was actually wondering, you know, if, if she hadn't heard of that, and you just went, you know, you know, could a shark and a tornado come together, and she would have been like, could you get this crazy man out of my office, please?

Andrew Shaffer 10:36
I know. I know. Yeah, so, yeah. So, some of that stuff we you know, was, was a lot of fun to sort of research, you know. And then there's other stuff. I mean, I think there was one movie that I watched that I watched it probably 10 times, and I couldn't figure out anyway, not only to make the science work in real life, but I couldn't figure out how the science worked in the movie. I was like, this movie doesn't really make much sense. And I was like, probably gonna cut this one out of the pocket.

Dave Bullis 11:07
So, you know, you know, you, you know, you wrote this book during the and it coincided with the release of Sharknado two. So, you know. So now, with Sharknado three coming out, you know, I wanted to ask you, what are some of your expectations about Sharknado three?

Andrew Shaffer 11:26
You know, I really didn't have any expectations even for the second Sharknado, because I hadn't, hadn't seen it at a time, or read the script or anything. So the second one itself was kind of a surprise. I kind of, you know, had an idea of that it would kind of be a little bit more meta than the first one, and it was. And so the third one I, you know, I was, I'm kind of hoping it goes a little bit back to basics, but which is, you know, really taking the concept as seriously as possible. I think it's something that, once it gets to meta, it becomes, if everybody's in on the joke, you know, then then the joke itself isn't that funny anymore. So I kind of like see a little more serious but, but I don't really know what direction they're going to take it. Yeah, I want to say a more personal Sharknado film. Maybe that's where you have to reboot the franchise.

Dave Bullis 12:31
Yeah, I really want to see a more like David Lynch a Sharknado film, you know. But, but yeah, you know. I completely agree with you on that point. I, you know, I also noticed that in the second one there was a lot more celebrity cameos. Like, pretty much, you know what I mean. Like, every time they went somewhere, there's a new celebrity. I hear now, there's, like, even more celebrities in Sharknado three.

Andrew Shaffer 12:57
Oh yeah, it's everybody wants it wants to, you know, be in on it, be in on the joke. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's a situation where the celebrities are just contacting them and say, I'll work for no money or something, and they're like, how can we refuse that? You know, they really can't say, you know, if David Hasselhoff wants to be in your movie or something, they for no money. It really can't say no to that. It's not like they're courting these celebrities. I don't think so. I mean, yeah, I think it's just gonna have, it's definitely gonna have more celebrity cameos. If you tried to play a celebrity cameo with drinking game or something with Sharknado two, you would have died. I mean, there were so many that are coming so fast, you didn't even know, you know, you couldn't even tell who was an actor, who was a celebrity. You know, it was, it was it came pretty fast and furious.

Dave Bullis 13:52
It did. And I think you're right too. I think there might have been called people who who attempted to do a drinking game, and the results probably weren't so well for them. So you're jumping back to your book, you know, in the chapter, you have an entire, you know, chapter, obviously, just to Sharknado. So, you know, I have to ask the question is, you know, how do you survive a sharknado?

Andrew Shaffer 14:18
How do you survive a sharknado, a lot of people said, just don't watch it. But I mean, I mean, the simple answer of, you know, how do you survive a Sharknado is, as some people think, Oh, well, I survived. I survived by, you know, going to the basement, same way I'd survive a tornado, which really doesn't work because a lot of times during a sharknado, you also have associated flooding with that. The only way to really escape it is to just drive as fast as possible out of town, which, if you're in LA or someplace else where there's going to be a bunch of traffic jams or something, that's just not going to be part. Possible. So, yeah, there's, there's really no good answer that you know. The answer in the book is, you know, Stand and fight. You know, grab a chainsaw, grab whatever you can instead, you know, and and fight back when these things fly at you. So, you know, but I, but personally, I'm, I'm not, like, a survivalist or anything. I mean, I had to research survival stuff for the book. But I don't, you know, I'm so bad about falling in real life, you know, I'm like, I don't have, like, a natural disaster kit. I don't have, you know, three pallets of bald water stored up here, which I probably should, after reading that New Yorker article on earthquakes on the Pacific Northwest this week. So,

Dave Bullis 15:51
Yeah, I read that same article. Apparently, in 50 years, Seattle is just going to be nothing.

Andrew Shaffer 15:57
Yeah, yeah, Seattle is going to get the worst of it. I think Portland, where I'm at is, you know, it's, there's gonna be some, some stuff fall off the wall or something. I don't know. It's not that. It's not gonna be too bad in Portland. I don't think,

Dave Bullis 16:12
Yeah, and just case anybody doesn't know what Andrew and I are talking about, I'll link to that in the show notes so you can read up on that. And then, you know, get scared to death. Be like, Oh my god. So, you know, Andrew, I've had some some fan questions come in, if you don't mind answering a few Sure. So the first question I received was, Andrew, what was the most unstoppable monster that you researched for the book?

Andrew Shaffer 16:39
The most unstoppable monster was the ghost shark, because there's just really no good way to stop a ghost like, like, there was actually a movie too, with, with the guy from bowl, from Night Court. I was in this movie, and it this shark appeared, manifested anywhere there was water. So it was in a swimming pool. One came out of a toilet, another came out of a bottle of water, and there was no way to get away from it anywhere you went. I was just like and it never got full of eating people. So it just went around and around us, eating people and stuff. And I'm like, how do you stop this thing? And I'm trying to think of, you know, there you basically, it's, you have to do some elaborate ghost trapping or something. But, but really it was like, it was like, on, on, on, you know, on a one to one level, you know, an individual level. There was nothing you could do to stop it besides find the, the whatever talisman it was in the movie. So, yeah, it goes straight, pretty frightening stuff.

Dave Bullis 17:59
Now, see, I'll check that movie out because I had no, no idea that was actually a real movie.

Andrew Shaffer 18:04
Oh, my God, it is amazing. Just, just the number of number. There's, there's this amazing bikini Car Wash scene where, where the ghost shark materializes out of a bucket of water. It's, it's just crazy.

Dave Bullis 18:26
So, you know, a follow up question is, Andrew, are you playing on writing a sequel to the book?

Andrew Shaffer 18:34
No, no. And basically, I think, you know, I don't know what else I could say about sharknados, or actually, about most paranormal threats or supernatural stuff like that, but, but I am working on another book that will hopefully be sort of along the similar lines as far as horror goes.

Dave Bullis 19:01
Oh, very cool. Could you tell us a little bit about it, or you want to keep it hush hush?

Andrew Shaffer 19:06
It's like super hush hush, right now.

Dave Bullis 19:08
Okay, so All right, then our on to the next question. We had come in from Michelle the trainer, who was a big fan of the show. Is Andrew a scuba diver, conservationist? Or so? I'm sorry, that was the first part of the question. Sorry, I was just reading a reading, reading. So are you a scuba diver? Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 19:30
No, I'm not. No, no, I've never gone scuba diving.

Dave Bullis 19:33
And the second part of that was any plans for sharktopus?

Andrew Shaffer 19:40
Well, like survival for the sharktopus. Yeah. So the shark to pus is in the book, but in terms of this year's new movie coming out, Sharktopus versus Whale Wolf, which is the third sharktopus movie, And which are which? Again, if you haven't seen the Sharktopus movies, those are phenomenally entertaining as well, but in terms of how to survive a Sharktopus again, it was like, I started to write some some of these, and I was like, the best thing you can do is just to to move as far away from the coast as possible. Because a lot of these threats in the book that I wrote about were all like, sort of water based threats. And I'm like, unless you like, live in Florida or LA or something, or along the coast, you're fine, but then you get inland, and then I said, then you find yourself in Nebraska. And I mean, I don't you, I don't know. So,

Dave Bullis 20:55
So the next question that came in was, if Andrew was going to create his own sci fi monster. What kind of monster would he create?

Andrew Shaffer 21:05
Well, I think that what kind of monster I would create. I had an idea for one that was not used in the book, and it was called a wolf Blizzard, which was a pun on the CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, and it was just a blizzard of wolves. And that actually got rejected for the book, because they were like, it's, it's the pun is too far. Like it's, they're like, there's like an there's like a line that we would never go past, and you just passed it. And I was like, oh my god, I can't believe I found the line where you will not cross so, but I would still like to I was like. I was like, I'm gonna go write this script.

Dave Bullis 21:55
So for all the aspiring writers listening to this, Andrew has just shown you the line in the sand that Sci Fi Channel will not cross.

Andrew Shaffer 22:04
Yes, yes.

Dave Bullis 22:08
So Andrew, I wanted to ask right now, you know, what are your future plans on publishing? I know there's a project that's very hush hush, but is there any other projects you're working on, or anything else you could tell us about right now?

Andrew Shaffer 22:20
Yeah, I'm also working on a on a young adult novel that that's something I've been working on for a while. I've got a few things that are like in the pipeline, but it's just like, you get a fun, you know, find the right sort of place for them, at a publisher, or either self publish it or whatever, and just got to wait for sort of the stars to align. And until that happens, I don't have any good news to announce. It's kind of boring, like it's something my mom calls me all the time and says, Oh, when's your next book coming out? And I'm like, I don't know. You'll be the first one to know. Don't worry.

Dave Bullis 23:01
So Andrew, I wanted to ask you too, you know, your book, Sharknado, was on sale. Is it still on sale right now?

Andrew Shaffer 23:09
Yeah, as of today, it is for us for like, $1.90 book. I don't know how long the sale is going to last, though.

Dave Bullis 23:15
Okay, so when this is up, you know, hopefully I will link to Andrews book in the show notes, hopefully it'll, if it's not on sale, it's still a relatively good buy. And I guarantee you it's, it is, you know, it's entertaining. It's hilarious. And, like, Look at me. I've learned a lot about the Sci Fi Channel movies because I'm, you know, I've known about ghost shark today.

Andrew Shaffer 23:36
Yeah, it's a value at any price, you know. And the book is like 40 megabytes because it has a bunch of drawings in it. So, you know, that's about 20 times the size of another file, download for a regular prose book. So, I mean, you know, that's what a deal, right? Yeah?

Dave Bullis 23:56
Because when I was flipping through it, I went to, obviously, I went to the Sharknado chapter. And greeting me is a, you know, a black and white hand drawn picture of a shark. Nano, right,

Andrew Shaffer 24:07
Right, right. I mean, and the book's got recipes, you know, excerpts from classic literature that I have completely trashed, such as Moby Dick. So, yeah, it's got a lot of stuff in there.

Dave Bullis 24:24
It's got something for everybody. So, you know, in Andrew, in closing, you know, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted to mention, or any, any, you know, closing thoughts or final thoughts?

Andrew Shaffer 24:38
No, my mind is, my mind is completely blank I do in like this meditation class right now. So I'm learning to sort of wipe away all thoughts in my mind. You know, normally I would have 100 things to talk about right now, but right now it's just like it's, I'm I'm learning to zone out and go blank.

Dave Bullis 24:59
All right. Andrew, where do you find you at online?

Andrew Shaffer 25:03
Oh, my goodness, anywhere. Twitter, Facebook, Google, you know, all someone has to do is Google my name. Andrew Shaffer, S, H, A, F, F, E, R, as long as they spell it right, they can find me, you know, which is, you know, kind of disturbing, but I'm all over the place,

Dave Bullis 25:25
And I'll make sure to to link to all that in the show notes too. I'll link to your website and your Twitter.

Andrew Shaffer 25:31
You don't you don't have to just make them work for it. Work for it. Okay?

Dave Bullis 25:35
I will not link to Andrew's info in the show notes, so you will have to work for it, then it'll be the first time. But I will not, I promise you, I will not link to that in the show notes. But Andrew, want to say thank you very much for coming on again everyone. It's how to survive a sharknado and other unnatural disasters that it's I will link to the, I will link to this and the show notes, but it's right to the Kindle version. And is there a physical version of this book too Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 26:03
There is. There is because, you know, once, once a sharknado or some other type of disaster hits, you need the physical version. You know, you can be able to charge your phone or whatnot. So, you know, I always advise people to get the e book and the physical version and just being on the safe side.

Dave Bullis 26:22
See, that's why you're the publisher, because that's that. That is forethought, my friend, yes, yes, you won't have That's right. So, you know, the physical the the ebook I have, you know, if it does, the power goes out, I won't be able to find it. So honestly, look into the physical version now too. Yeah. So Andrew, I want to say thank you so much for coming on everyone. The book is how to survive a sharknado. Andrew, thanks again for coming on and again. Feel free to, you know, drop me an email anytime, and I'd love to have you back sometime.

Andrew Shaffer 26:52
Yeah, great time chatting with you, Dave.

Dave Bullis 26:54
Oh, you too, my friend. Take care everyone.

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BPS 411: Beyond the Script: Gordy Hoffman’s Guide to Emotional Storytelling

March 20, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Life, they say, is a story we tell ourselves—a script of experience, moments, and emotions woven into a narrative only we can claim as our own. On today’s episode, we welcome Gordy Hoffman, a screenwriter, director, and the mind behind the BlueCat Screenwriting Competition. His journey through the labyrinth of storytelling has been marked by profound lessons in creativity, resilience, and the delicate art of telling tales that move the human heart.

As he shares his insights, one thing becomes evident: the best stories are not formulas but living, breathing entities. Too often, writers are shackled by the idea that a script must be a well-oiled machine of plot points and three-act structures. But according to Gordy Hoffman, true storytelling is about emotional investment. “The only rule of storytelling is getting an audience to care,” he explains. Without that, no amount of structure or technique can save a lifeless script. Whether it’s an Oscar-winning screenplay or a child recounting their day at school, the heart of a story lies in its ability to make someone feel something real.

The conversation drifts into the art of critique—how some script consultants and teachers wield feedback like a sledgehammer rather than a guiding hand. Gordy Hoffman believes in nurturing creativity with kindness, rather than crushing it under the weight of harsh criticism. He’s seen firsthand how a poorly delivered note can stifle a writer, and he champions an approach where constructive guidance fosters growth rather than fear. After all, a writer’s vulnerability is embedded in their work, and the moment they detach from that, their stories lose their humanity.

But what about the battle every writer faces—the looming doubt that creeps in halfway through a script, whispering that it’s all meaningless, that every page is a failure? Gordy Hoffman reassures us that this despair is not a dead end but a marker of progress. “Every screenplay you work on, you’re going to hit that wall where you think, ‘This is awful, I’m bored, and I want to start over.’ That’s when you know you’re halfway there.” The magic, he insists, lies in persistence—pushing through the malaise, trusting the process, and understanding that the creative spirit is not meant to be shackled by self-doubt.

The conversation inevitably turns to Hollywood, that glittering beast that both nurtures and devours dreams. The industry’s appetite for franchise films and established intellectual property has made it harder than ever for original screenplays to find their place. But for those who believe in their stories, avenues still exist—film festivals like Sundance, independent productions, and even the evolving landscape of television. The key is not just writing a screenplay but crafting one so undeniable that it demands to be seen.

And what of inspiration? For Gordy Hoffman, it can come from anywhere—a fleeting moment, a stray observation, or even an index card scribbled with a single thought. Love Liza, one of his most well-known works, was born from a brief encounter at a gas station. “I saw someone near a pump, and I thought, ‘Are they sniffing gasoline?’ That small moment turned into a story about grief and addiction.” Such is the power of storytelling—it transforms the mundane into the extraordinary, giving meaning to even the smallest of moments.

The beauty of storytelling is that it is never truly finished. It grows, shifts, and takes on a life of its own, sometimes in ways we never intended. As Gordy Hoffman reminds us, the path of the writer is one of perseverance, of believing in the story even when the world seems indifferent. In the end, storytelling is less about perfecting structure and more about opening the heart—to others, to ourselves, and to the infinite possibility of what can be created.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:52
Today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
My next guest is a screenwriter and director his film Love Liza won the Waldo salt screening board at the 2002 Sundance Film Festival. His other film dog bowl premiered at the 2015 Sundance Film Festival. We're going to talk all about Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're going to talk a little about phantom thread. We're going to talk about all that good stuff, because this guest has, you know, been down the road a couple of times. And we're also going to talk about, obviously, the blue cat screenwriting competition, which some deadlines are coming up. But I've also linked to those in the show notes. And also, all the movies we talk about are in the show notes again davebullis.com Just remember that. So in case you need it for later. But with guest, Gordy Hoffman. You know, Gordy, I've actually, you know, followed you for a while. I've actually entered the blue cat a few times. I've seen a few webinars. You know, not only is Blue Cat awesome, but but Gordy, you're kind of like, the the the guy that you want to learn writing from, because you're so, like, good natured, and you just like, have that attitude. You know what I mean, like you, you just seem like you, you not only know what you're doing, but But you know what I mean, like, it's that, that you're that you have the personality that sort of comes through if you know what I'm trying to say.

Gordy Hoffman 3:32
Well, you know, well, thank you. That's that's very sweet to say. And, you know, I learned probably a long time ago that, you know when I was directing and when I got into teaching, that, you know, being loving and kind and courteous when you're talking to somebody about their stuff and trying to be makes them more receptive. I mean, if you ultimately want to help people and serve them and give them some information and help them with their writing. You want them to be able to listen and hear what you're saying. And, you know, people get, you know, no one wants to be sort of get negative or sort of shaming or anything or like, be denigrated or discouraged. In a way. It's just, it shuts people down and they they're not going to produce. Actors getting nervous, crew gets angry, resentful. They're not going to be but if you're kind of courteous and respectful when you're making a film and and when you're talking to people about their work, it's difficult sometimes to navigate that, but it's something that we stress with our readers often, you know, we just say, you know, you got to be, you are talking to the reader when you're set, you know, writing up the notes and and no one, you know, it's just natural. It's just no one wants to. People tend to shut down. They're not going to listen. They're not going to hear the notes, if, if they're delivered in a way. So over time, I think, um. And, you know, I'm just not, you know, it's not really, I guess, you know, there's probably some higher ethical reasons why you should be good to nice to people. But it's also, it's also very practical. You know, it's also, it's also practical, if you want to actually tell a better story, then it's good to collaborate and work with writers and work with your fellow collaborators in a way that fosters that spirit, so that they're relaxed and they feel entitled in the work and excited. So yeah, don't crush people's spirits. Dave, crush their dreams. You know? It's just like, oh, it stays with you for years, you know? I mean, it's like, it's not a good look. So, yeah, so I think it's just, I think all anybody who likes to teach and has been teaching a while kind of learns that it's a it's a much more effective way to help a student, and that's what you want to do when you're teaching.

Dave Bullis 6:05
In your journey, Gordy, you know, through, through going to all these different, you know, places like, you know, like Sundance, and going on to, you know, doing these webinars. And, I mean, I'm sure you've met a ton of, ton of people, you know, and so, you know, having done all that, have you met screenwriting teachers who are, who are like that, who just give, like, these very, like, paint, like these notes that are just like, direct and to the point and very, maybe even, yeah,

Gordy Hoffman 6:31
I've heard, I've heard, yeah, I've heard of students going, coming back and being like, oh, like you're saying, you know? And I think some people just feel like, that's, I mean, some people think that that, and, you know, if, and I think some people maybe like that, I don't know they like the all I need to be, I need someone to be tough on me, you know, and I guess that. But I've had a lot of good writers, talented people, people that are back have pretty good back phones, you know, people just fold, you know when they do that? But yeah, absolutely, there's people that, because it's, you know what? It's easier to yell. I mean, it's easier to just freak out on people. You know what? I mean, the work of being like a teacher and although, and the work of giving somebody effective notes that's struggling and there's with her story, the work of being a respected director, an effective director, is, is, is being, is kind of being able to react with grace and be able to be respectful. It's so easy to be a jerk, you know, I mean to just be like, why? What were you? You know, like, whatever it is. And but, you know, the thing is, I'm a writer, you know, and I'm and I'm a filmmaker myself. And I think that's, that's why blue cat, I think, has flourished the way it has and grown the way it has and, and I think that's what makes me an effective teacher as well. Because I'm like, would I want to hear this? How would I want to hear notes. How would I want to hear this? Like, what would I what do I think would be fair and it, you know, that having that perspective really helps. And I think some, maybe some teachers aren't, were never really writers, or they haven't been writing for a long time, and they maybe it helps them slip. But most teachers, you know, I think a lot of really effective teachers, you know, approach it with a pretty even keel. I don't think you really hear a bunch of, you know, hear too much about lunatic people. I just don't think that. I don't think that screamers really. I mean, writing is such a personal action, you know, it's a very vulnerable thing, all creative, artistic pursuits. You know, it's like you're really opening yourself up. You know, your instrument is your personal life. And you know, it can get a little hairy when somebody's coming after the writing, because it feels like they're coming after you so yes, and you only know that, I think, if you experience the process of writing yourself, and you know how personal it is. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 9:10
Yeah, you know, that's that thing, you know. How do you differentiate between the writing and yourself? You know, you hit the nail on the head right there. Because, you know, it's kind of like if you write a screenplay or a short story, and you turn it in, and the and the the judges or the script consultant or whomever, or, you know, the writers group doesn't like it, and so you feel like, I've been there before. I feel like it's an assault on me, you know. And you're like, How dare you, yeah, you know. And then you start,

Gordy Hoffman 9:38
Yeah, and that's, and that's, a good it's a good professional. It's good exercise and professionalism to be like, you know, this is not about you, and sometimes things are very personal, and, you know, feels like, oh God, you know. And somebody's like, I think that character is certain way, and you thought differently, and that might reflect on your values.

And it might reflect on your ethical, you know, core, you know, and that can it starts to feel like you're kind of getting it's kind of like, oh, you know, you you think I'm a creep, or you think I'm angry, or you think I'm like, you know, whatever, or you think I condone this, or, you know, whatever. And, but professionals, I think you know, you think it's good. We all fall into that. And I think it's always good for me to remember that you know, it's like, you know, this is a story. You know you're creating something. You're going to create more. You know you're gonna have a body of work. It's not you, it's not your life. It's you know, and everything is so personal, the reactions from people, I mean, people are so spot, get so wound up with feedback sometimes. And it's like, haven't you ever gone to a movie with like people that you love, like your family or your best friends or your spouses or your partners or whoever. And you walk out and one person goes, I hated that, and the other person goes, God, I loved it, you know. And no one goes, Oh, my God, we need to move out, you know. Or, you know, there's no, it's, there's no big Fallout, you know, it's sort of like, okay, yeah, you like Star Wars, I didn't or whatever, and, or you like shape of water, and I didn't or something, and that's it. Then you just go home and get dinner and you just gotta go on. But like, when people have a reader or a writer's group or a manager pass or producer never get back to you. It's like, it's like, oh, you know, it's so devastating. It's like, you know, they're just people, and it's just another reaction. And sometimes you might have expectations about, you know, wanting a reaction from, like, say, a contest or from a producer or from a colleague. You want that reaction to be, you know, the you may have expectations, but that's that's also something that we, you know, as professionals, we want to keep developing, you know, a healthy sense of expectations and keep things in check and know that it's not the end of the world if something doesn't. Because you can all as a writer, writers always, you know, there's always another movie. There's always another great idea. I mean, I'm, you know, I get so worked up, and then, you know, and then, you know, I come across another thing. It's so incredible. And I go, and I'm so excited about the idea of writing it, and I go, you know, and it makes you free of everything else you know. So lower your expectations and realize everything is, you know, everything's coming from a personal their own personal place. And just remember that. You know how many times you've gone to the theater and walked out with divided reactions, and it's so perplexing. Sometimes you're like, What do you mean? You didn't like that, you know? And it's like, no, I didn't. And it's like, okay, you know. And it's just, that's what makes everything kind of fun, you know. That's what makes the storytelling, you know, interesting, I think,

Dave Bullis 13:10
Yeah, you know. It reminds me that episode of Seinfeld where Mr. Peterman, he didn't like he said he went, he took Elaine to see The English Patient, and she hated it, and he actually fired her. It's so funny because, you know, not only does that speak of character within Seinfeld, but it's also, I mean, you know, that's comedy because it's the ordinary. It's brought up to the extraordinary because it's so ludicrous that a boss would fire an employee because he did. She didn't like right movie is him,

Gordy Hoffman 13:42
Right and that, but that's how passionate we are. That's how emotional we are about our decisions and our reactions. But as a writer, you know, it's, it's like, yeah. And a lot of people get, get really hung up on, you know, and, you know, Blue Cat gives out feedback and, you know, and there's gonna always be somebody who's gonna be like this person you know, didn't, you know? And I'm like, Well, you know that's it's going to happen. You know, it's not a perfect process. You know, it's not math, it's not two plus two equals four. It's just not, we're not doing that now when, like, some people watch call me by your name and have one reaction, and other people, I talked to a guy last night who walked out, you know, he just thought it was too small. And other people think it's a masterpiece, you know, so, and both of everybody's right. I mean, you know, love lies. It was a movie I wrote. It came out a long time ago. It was reviewed in the, you know, and people, some of you know, it came out in theater, so it was reviewed by the press and and, you know, I realized then it was like, the people that just thought it wasn't even worthy of a short, they just thought it was crap, you know, I'd be like, Oh my God, you know. And then, and, but then the people were like, Oh, this is like, a this is a little, this is genius. And I realized it's like, they're both sort of wrong and right. You know what I mean? Like, I can't go to the genius people. Old people that think it was a mass being well, you're right. That's a good view. You know what? You're talking about, the person who doesn't like it. It's like, no, they're both, right, you know, they're both, like, somebody who likes something really, like, oh my god, this is incredible. They're as crazy as the person that says something's horrible. You know what? I mean? They're just, it's just, it's, you know, it's all emotional response and personal history, and, you know, it's, it's, but, I mean, I hope you know, if anything, it's like, I, I always, I'm glad. I think it when people, when writers, can, like, really look past that, because it really frees you up, you know, you realize it's like, it keeps you going. And I think it gets you back to focusing on developing a better story, instead of just focusing on reactions and all that stuff. So,

Dave Bullis 15:44
Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head too, Gordy, when you said about, you know, this whole idea of story, because I think too many times when you I mean, there's 10,000 screenwriting books out there, and the problem is, you start to read some of these, and it's all about a formula, you know what? I mean, it's, it's the precise, you know? And it is, like you said, it's not math. But some of those books, though, they treat it as such, where it's like, on page, this on page that this has to happen, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you start to get just lost in this. And that's why, I think, I mean, you, you must see a lot where you're kind of like this feels like they're not really writing a story, but they're trying to solve, like, like a math problem.

Gordy Hoffman 16:26
Absolutely. I mean, you know, there was a really, there was a period of time where people were saved the cat was sort of, you know, I mean, with all credits to save the cat, and and, and the principles that the really healthy story principles that it, that it affirms and everything. And it was a period where it was like, you know, maybe 10 years ago, where it was like, everybody was like, you know, really ablaze with that. And people were using it left and right and and scripts, some of the scripts were just incoherent because they were just, they weren't even they would they had lost offense. They weren't even connected to their own story, intuitive, sort of Compass inside. And so they were like, well, this is what the character supposed to do on this page. And it was like, but then when you read it, be like, I don't even know what's going on, you know, and the emotional thing wasn't happening, and everything else. So, yeah, you know, you kind of look for you can, you know, the books are great. And if you get stuff that inspires you, incredible. If you get something that makes sense, it's great. A teacher, an analyst, a consultant. You know, it could be the guy, some guy you meet at Starbucks, who says, oh, I want to read your script. And some the barista, you know, anybody wants to, you know, I'll read it, you know. And then they go, I just didn't think, I mean, I've gotten notes from everywhere, you know what I mean? And it just doesn't. There's no, there's no bad source of notes. It's just the ones that actually help you move forward. And know that, but yeah, you have to strike a balance between what, the what formulas, what kind of, this is what this is the third act, you know, whatever, and knowing that the only rule of storytelling is emotional investment and getting an audience to care. I mean, you know, I mean, good example, call me by your name. I mean, I don't know what formula that followed, or like act structure, or anything like that. I don't know. I don't know where a phantom thread, you know, you can't, I don't know what I mean. I mean I I'd have to probably watch it again or a couple more times to see but I'm sure that Paul Thomas Anderson did not, you know, was not even thinking about that. He was just telling an emotional story, creating characters that he thought an audience would be interested in and invested in emotionally. And that is what drives that. That's what drives effective storytelling. That's what's that's what drives classic movies making, and that's what, that's what drives profit in the marketplace, is emotion. I mean, Wonder Woman was Wonder Woman. Because people loved Wonder Woman, and they were so gratified by her performance, who she was, we were able to connect with her. Was like, oh, you know. And it's, you know, and so this, this happens, whereas, like, you know, the thing with Star Wars, it's like there was some mixed reactions out there, we can all kind of safely say. And some people were like, I am not. And basically boiled down to, I am not feeling Luke Skywalker, I do not. I'm like, I've lost my connection with Luke Skywalker. That's really what happened. It's like, it's like they did something else with Luke and made some choices about the story, and that's what happened. You can't I don't think anyone can deny that there was an emotional breakdown with some of the audience because of who they knew Luke Skywalker could be. So anyway, so it's all emotional investment, and so as long as we can remember. At when we're when we're writing, I mean, just just, you know, make a balance between you can read stuff inspired. Get you thinking about things. Get you thinking about conflict and tone and and things like this. You know, you get it's good to think about these things and study them and look at other movies and how they function every now. But don't forget that eight year old child that knew how to tell a story. You know what I mean? You can, you can. You can go to a 10 year old and go what happened after school today, and they'll tell you a story. They'll know what a beginning, middle and end it. They know what the inciting incident is. They know what the payoff is. They know what the ending is, no and they know what that is. It's in their bloodstream. It's in their DNA. And so we go, we want to strike a balance between what we learn and what we already know, you know.

Dave Bullis 21:00
Yeah, you know. And somebody once told me about kids storytellers, that one of the main reason that they're, they actually become such good storytellers, is, is because they, they're not afraid to fail, and they're, you know, they're not really concerned about that. And they just, sort of, they just go in full force of that story and, and it's not until you start, you know, going through, you know, your your young adult life, or what have you, you start to go, oh my god, the peer pressure. Oh my god. What if I look, don't, you know, what if somebody thinks I'm an idiot? What if this isn't good? I suck. Then if this sucks, you know what I mean,

Gordy Hoffman 21:32
Right, right. There is definitely a, definitely an open, open feeling about what they're doing and everything else, absolutely

Dave Bullis 21:42
And by the way, I know you mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson. You know, I actually saw your AMA on Reddit, Gordy, and I laughed when you when somebody asked, Are you the Gordy that Paul Thomas Anderson thanked at the end of the master and you just responded back with the the Heisenberg meme of your damn right?

Gordy Hoffman 22:03
Yeah, I, you know, it's funny as it was. I remember that, I think I was, I had an intern in the office, and he was like, no, let me get this Any, any, and I was like, okay, just put it up there. You know, he was, he thought that was funny, or somebody was, somebody in our office. Was like, yeah, he kind of grabbed that meme and put that up there. Yeah, I was, I was, I looked at the master a little bit along the way the script. And, you know, I'm for obviously, you know, Paul is very close to my brother, and they were, like, best friends and like, literally, brothers in their own right, you know. And so we're very, been very close to Paul for for 20, you know, over 20 years. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I saw, you know, the Boogie Nights. I mean, my brother was telling me about Boogie night. I gave, I gave my brother love wise. And the fall of 96 and that was when he was shooting Boogie Nights. And he was telling me about this movie that he was making about the porn industry, you know. So it's, I've known now, Paul, he's amazing. He's so he really is our best. He's really the best we have, you know, in America. I mean, he's just, he's like, a Kubrick level genius, and he's gonna be, I mean, the best is yet to come. I mean, he's gonna phantom thread totally says that, you know, he's going to different play, he's going to be, he's going to everything is going to he's going to make so many great movies. And then, you know, the net second half of his life, it's really exciting. But, yeah, I'm very honored. And he's always been very, such a, such a humble he's always very respectful of me, and, you know, he's always been respectful of me, and he always, he likes my judgment, and he's just a great guy, you know, I mean, he's a wonderful man too. It's good guy.

Dave Bullis 23:51
So, you know, as we were talking about, you know, directors and giving notes and stuff like that. So, you know, in your experiences, in working with him, you know, does he sort of have that sort of same mentality where, you know, it's, it's not so much of, hey, listen to me, because I'm the director, but it's more of like he knows how to collaborate the, you know, the right way. Because I've had people on here who've worked with, like Quentin Tarantino, and that's one of the things they say was his strengths was, was that, you know, he would get into this groove, and they always knew when he liked stuff, because he would start, you know, laughing and stuff like that, and and, you know, they knew his vibe is this, Paul Thomas,

Gordy Hoffman 24:27
I've not been on the set with Paul, so I can't really speak to him as a director and like what that is. But, I mean, you know, so I just, all I can say is, from my vantage point, you know, he obviously knows how to cast. He knows how to direct an ensemble of actors and bring them together in the scene. You know, he's very, very gifted. I mean, it's he does so many things. Well, people just don't understand that he, you know, he's writing on a certain level that is highly original. And authentic, emotionally authentic and his he delivers high conflict. He never he doesn't run from emotional, emotional beats and high, highly intense emotional situations. You know, he knows how to cast. He has an incredible he has a Shakespearean sense of comedy, and how he balances comedy and his stories. So, I mean, you know, you're a limit. I mean, just in what I just said, You're eliminating, like several major directors that are in this country, around the world, that can't do all of those things. They do not do all of those things. They can't, they can't do all that. You just go on. You're not even talking about, you know, where he puts the camera. You're not even, you're not even talking about how he employs score and sound. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's off the charts. So it's like, he has so much of that covered. He's literally, like, I mean to me, I mean, I, you know, obviously, you know, I might buy it, whatever. But the fact is, is that it's like, I mean, anyone who knows anything, I think probably would agree with me, but he is one of our he is, he is the master. I mean, he is one of the greats, you know, and by the time it's all done, I mean, he's because he's going to keep going, he's a young man, and he's going to keep going, and he's, he's got all his faculties and Phantom thread was such a, such a step forward. I thought in so many images of such a mature there was something so mature about the movie, and it was a real, real achievement. And, you know, and obviously the academy, you know, agrees, because they, they nominate, not only nominated the movie Best Picture, but also nominated him for directing and and I think that that was well deserved. They know it. They know that it was, it was it was truly, it was truly an achievement and really, really wonderful to see. So,

Dave Bullis 27:00
You know, Gordy, I that's, that's actually one of the movies I want to see this year. I haven't actually been, you know, either it wasn't playing at the time I went, or I haven't been able to sort of schedule time to go.

Gordy Hoffman 27:12
It just came out. I mean, it just came out. I mean, it just came out like, I mean, in LA, it's been out since the end of the year, end of 2017 but it just was released, I think last weekend, a lot of places, so a lot of people have not caught up to that one yet. So, you know, but, so, yeah, so, but everyone will get a chance to take it in. But I encourage every, all writers to to look at that, you know, to go, to go to that movie and and think about what, what is successful, and what is, what is effective about the story telling in the movie, and take it in, and I think you'll, you know, it's a good, it's a really great movie for screenwriters.

Dave Bullis 27:56
You know, that was my mistake. I actually thought it came out like end of November, beginning in December last year, so, but, no, it didn't, yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I, sometimes I get, like, release dates all mixed up, you know, and, but, yeah, but, but, you know, you made a good point. I want to, I want to actually ask about is, you know, when you're a screenwriter, you know, some of the, you know, the the ideas of becoming a better screenwriter are, you know, you have to read a lot of screenplays, and obviously you have to go to different movies. Do you feel that there's ever like an advantage of one over the other? Because I, one time, went to a screenwriting seminar and the person said, You can't judge a you can't watch a movie and try to dissect it that way, because you don't know what the script even look like, you know, they actors could be improvising, you know, this scene could blah, blah, blah, and, and I wanted to ask you, what do you think of that advice?

Gordy Hoffman 28:50
Well, I mean, the fact is, is that, you know, that sounds, I mean, it sounds like a fairly reasonable point. But the fact is, this screenplay is, is it's, it's part of making the film. And I think that ultimately, because there's a lot of scripts that you know, so you're so you can't judge the script Well, if the scripts, you know, it doesn't matter. In the end, we need our audience. We're not writing scripts, you know, we're right. We're trying to make a movie, you know. So, yeah, so, I mean, I think ultimately, it's, it's yeah, that sounds like, Okay, well, you can't judge the movie based off of this. Are you saying you can't judge the screenplay based off of the movie that we've just seen?

Dave Bullis 29:39
Yeah, that that, that's what the they were saying was, because,

Gordy Hoffman 29:42
Okay, I think generally, I think generally, I mean, I think I'm sure there's exceptions, or people, you know, drop the ball, or the money doesn't happen, or there's bad performances, or, you know, whatever. There's some, probably a number of reasons, but I think it generally, You know, strong writing, you know, tends to reflect in a strong movie. It's, it's very difficult to make a great movie from a mediocre script. It's just, you know, it's just difficult. They are very much correlated. I don't think there's a lot of variance there. And, yeah, so interesting question, though, I've never heard that.

Dave Bullis 30:34
Yeah, that's why I always like going in and, you know, just interviewing people like you Gordie, just this, you know, people out there in the field. And, you know, that's why I want to do this podcast, because they get to hear all these different different takes on different things, you know what I mean? And you get to share knowledge, because I think that's what technology has done. I mean, honestly, you know, once I started it's kind of, I kind of had my aha moment, you know, with all this technology and the way media is the way it is now, you know, that's, that's what it is. It's sharing knowledge and communicating with each other, just a lot faster and on a much now it's on a global scale, because I don't know if there's anybody on this planet anymore that you can't talk to if you want to, right? But, but yeah. And of course, we've seen with movies, you know. Now it's, you know, you know, you put them on Netflix, Hulu, all that good stuff, and then you can, you know, that is distribution, but, but I wanted to get back to you Gordon, just talking about, you know, your career and everything you know, you've actually, you know, directed a few movies. You've written a few movies. So I just actually wanted to ask you about some of those, and some of your experiences actually making those. So, you know, your, your first movie as you, as you mentioned earlier, was love Liza. So, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, where was the impetus for writing that screenplay, and how did you go about being able to direct that movie?

Gordy Hoffman 31:49
I didn't direct it. Todd directed it. Yeah, I wrote it. And I was, I was a cab driver in Chicago, and I saw somebody near a gas pump, and I was like, I was like, is that person sniffing the gas? And I didn't really see them sniffing it, but I was like, and I was in my cab, and I wrote that down an index card. I used to have all these blank index cards with me. I wonder where those are. I like, I wish I could find them. I wonder where they headed up. But I, you know, I had, like, yeah, I've got, like, to find some of that stuff. Anyways, yeah, I wrote down a man starts hopping gas and and, you know, and then that was the germ of it, where I was like, Well, why would he start doing that? It's just like, well, what if his wife committed suicide? And then I started to write that, and then he finds a note, and I found that I didn't plan on that he finds the note, and the note ended up driving the movie. But that's where love lies. It came from.

Dave Bullis 32:48
So, you know, sometimes when I find pieces of material that I've like written on an index card or back of a receipt or something, I'll look at it Gordy and I go, What the hell was I trying to say?

Gordy Hoffman 32:59
Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen to be too much anymore. But sometimes, yeah, I'm like, I'll look back on something that I'll write down a little idea file. Usually I get, I get the idea, and I put it on, like a little document, and I just, you know, I have so many of them and but I usually I know myself that I better explain it so that I can look back on it and know exactly what it is. Because if I just write down macaroni and cheese, it's like, I'm like, What the Oh, is that idea? You know, you gotta like, let's like, what was that? It's like, so, yeah, but I think we've all had that experience of looking back at something we jotted down and been like, okay, I guess that one's gone.

Dave Bullis 33:41
You know, I've gotten into the habit of using my phone now. I use, I use, like, Evernote to take that, oh yeah, because it helps you organize things. And also, you're not, like, carrying around tons of sheets of paper, yeah,

Gordy Hoffman 33:55
yeah, yeah. That's, that's electronic, you know, that's the technology that we have now is that, yeah, you don't really have index cards anymore. You just, I just, usually just write an email to myself, send it to myself, and then it ends up in my little movie folder, idea list for the year, and then, and I'm backing it up every couple days, the whole computer. So I got a great Jae, have everything. So it's all, it's all different from back in the days, 20 years ago, when I came up with the idea for love Liza

Dave Bullis 34:27
I find it interesting too, Gordy, you were, you were a cab driver in Chicago, and you were just, you know, I guess in between fairs, you were just, you know, on index cards. You were just sort of outlining or brainstorming ideas that you could put into a screenplay.

Gordy Hoffman 34:40
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the, I mean, you know, I just, that was what I was doing. And I, you know, to this day, it's like, you know, I mean, you know, it's like, anywhere an idea will come up, but at that time, you know, that's what, that's what my day job was. It was a, it's a whole nother experience, you know. And I drove a cab in Chicago for three and a half years, and, and, and that was, yeah, I can still remember exactly the gas station that that happened, and, and it was just one of the random things. It was like, and, and, and I just decided to go with it, you know, it was an idea. And I, you know, I just remember that it's like, sometimes you sit there and go, Okay, what ideas should I work on? And and, you know, any idea that you pick, you're gonna make great, you know what I mean. So it's like, it's like, I'm like, don't be so worried about whether or not this is the right idea, because you're gonna work on it and it's gonna be awesome, you know what I mean. So you'll make everyone, everything work. And so it's like, it's such a and I forget that, because I'll be like, you know, like, I don't know. And it's like, even, because, if I was forced to write my worst idea, I would, I would make it great, you know what I mean? I would just be like, the one, I'd be like, Okay, I gotta write on that. And then I would lean into it, and I would start to, you know, my imagination would kick in and start to come up with ideas.

Dave Bullis 36:06
You know, Steven Pressfield once said that you could, if you can get, like, a sentence out, you can draw a whole novel just from that one sentence. You can pull just from that absolutely. And he said, absolutely. I mean, oh, I'm sorry, Gordie, go ahead. No, no, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say that he actually wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance just from that one sentence. He had, like this moment where he kind of jotted down the sentence, and then he has pulled the whole novel from that,

Gordy Hoffman 36:34
Right. I mean, you know, and that's, it's, you know, it's usually like one little idea, a few little words, you jot down, and then it's like, the ideas there and and then you're off to the races. And, but, you know, I've done that in classes too, where it's like, I have people, you know, brainstorm like, 10 ideas for scenes, and then I asked them pick the worst idea out of all the ones, and that's the one I have them write on and to show them that, basically, any anything, you can make anything work, you know, you do not have to it does not have to be the best ideas and not have to be. I mean, that's really why forward any kind of writing challenges, any kind of 48 hour film, thought that's where that comes from. It's because it for, it's what people can given, given restrictions, you know, they can still have fun and be creative and everything else,

Dave Bullis 37:32
Yeah, and again, I think it's just when you're having fun. Because I think that, I think that's a lot of things that people forget. Especially, I mean, I've been there too Gordy, where I'm like, you know, I completely forget this is supposed to be fun. And it becomes like, so deathly serious, and you start kind of doubting yourself along the way, and then it becomes a little more, a little more. And then by the end, you're like, this whole thing sucks. I gotta get rid of this whole screenplay. I gotta start all over again. And then you can it becomes a habit that you that you have to break.

Gordy Hoffman 38:00
Well, every every screenplay you know, it's like, you know, any kind of master screenwriter or filmmaker you know will tell you it's like, anything you're working on, you're gonna get to a wall, you're gonna get to a place where you're like, this is awful, and I'm bored as hell, and I want to start something else. And there's this has so many problems, and I don't know how to solve them. And this is like, taking forever, you know? I mean, it's true despair and and the thing is, now I know that, like, when I get to that place, I'm like, Okay, I'm making that way. Like, I know it's like, okay, I'm actually halfway through, you know, like, because you are always gonna hit that spot, and it's like, and you are, you never get, oh man. This is, like, a this is so awesome. You know, it's never like that. You always get to place where, like, I'm, I hate every page. I'm like, all this stuff. I'm sick of reading this thing. I'm like, you have that feeling, and it's like, in that and when you have that feeling, it's like, oh well, you're getting there, you're almost you're you're probably rounding second. Just keep going, and then suddenly it will come back, and you'll fall in love with it again, and you'll come up with new ideas. And your problem, your, you know, solve these problems, and you'll have another draft, and then you'll start, and then you'll be like, okay, and you'll own it all over again. And then you'll really have something special. But we have to fight through, you know, the boredom, the despair, you know, just the just the loathing of the script. You know, at times it comes up where you're just like, God, like, I'm so sick of looking at this and thinking about it. I think it sucks, you know, or whatever. And you know, you're like, four drafts and, you know,

Dave Bullis 39:44
Yeah, yeah. Just even in the at the outlining stages, you know, sometimes you're like, oh my god, what the hell. What the hell was I thinking? And, you know, yeah, one of the things that I've learned too over the years is just like, little tips and, or so to speak, or if you want to call them a hack. You know, that's a popular word. Now, Gordy hack, so everything's a hack. So it's one thing I've learned is, is if you to start an argument, you know, have one, you know, have one, you know, obviously, that's where conflict comes from, right? I want a, you want a, and we each have a different way of how we're gonna get it. Or maybe, you know what I mean, and then we what we both need, this thing, and that's where this conflict comes from, is that, you know, there you want something and you can't get it. I want something, I can't get it. So if you sort of, you know, starting an argument, and that's why I make little notes when I'm going back through stuff and just saying myself, this is, you know, maybe this is something that I can do better. And then, you know what Stephen King once said, If you take a draft or something, put it in your drawer for two weeks or whatever, go back to it, and that's when you can look at it again with fresh eyes.

Gordy Hoffman 40:59
Yeah, it's great how time changes things, and you can look at stuff and be like, Oh, yeah. And you could definitely, you know, there's a lot of that stuff, but yeah, that's great advice.

Dave Bullis 41:12
So, you know, Gordy, as you took love Liza, and you were able to write a full screenplay, you know, how did you go about, you know, just sort of even pitching it and, you know, getting it into the right hands to get it produced.

Gordy Hoffman 41:27
Well, you know, it was a long process, but, you know, my brother read it, and like I said, he had not started shooting Boogie Nights yet, so he wasn't a movie star or anything like that. He just young and we read it, and he loved it, you know, and I didn't, wasn't giving it to him to be like, Hey, you want to do this, but he wanted to play the guy and and that's what it is. So we attached he was a task. We got a director, we got Todd, and then we started to couple of producers, and then we started to talk to people that could add access to money, and find, you know, producers that you know could raise, raise, actually, the money to make the movie. And so it took a, you know, it didn't take that long, maybe four years from from like, the whole period of like, starting to think about it, and people looking at it, you know. And then, and then, then we found some folks and and made it, you know. And got, was able to get Kathy Bates involved and, and that was how we, we got the money. It was very low budget at the time, and, and then, you know, got into Sundance. You know, people responded at Sundance to it, and it got to Sundance. And, and then it was bought by Sony Classics, and they distributed it. So, yeah, so that was that sort of the journey. And I think it's, I mean, somebody told me it's on HBO right now. So think if you have HBO, you'll be able to watch it. And obviously it's on Amazon for rental, but it's, but Sony ended up Sony Classics, the same guys that were involved with love. Liza, are, you know, are still running Sony Classics, you know, and call me by your name is the Sony Classics acquisition that they picked up before Sundance. And, yeah, so,

Dave Bullis 43:35
You know, Gordon, you mentioned Sundance, and you mentioned, you know, call me by your name. And also, you know, with love Liza, I saw an article, and I don't know if you saw this yet, in the LA Times, that says the spec script is dead. And what they mean is, is that Hollywood only wants to make the big budget blockbuster movies, you know, based on, you know, superheroes and things like that, or or remakes of classic movies and stuff like that, you know, you know, and that the spec scripts now all go to Sundance. So if you want to make an original movie, you know, the place to debut it or show it and get it bought, etc, is Sundance. You know, I don't know if you've read that article, but do you do agree with that in today's current market for screenwriters that you know, Sundance is where, you know, independent movies really go

Gordy Hoffman 44:24
Well. I mean, Sundance is an incredible market. I mean, if you get into Sundance, I mean, all eyeballs are there for acquisitions, and you can, you know, pick up a movie that can do considerable performance at the box office, and also could win Academy Awards. So it, you know, obviously, it's an, it's a great launch pad now, you know, I mean, look, you write a great screenplay, you know, you're gonna be able to do a lot of things, you know. And that's never going to change the idea. Of, yeah, the what was happening in the 90s. The markets changed. There's the you know, how they but, you know, but the 90s were also different from the 40s, you know what I mean. So it's not like some, you know, like some evil thing has happened. It's just the market changed. Storytellers can go different places, but you obviously can, you know, if you write something special, you know, you might be able to get, you know, involved in television, and television episodic is obviously sort of the there's another golden age right now in terms of, you know, storytelling and television, but, you know, but then you can also, you know, write a get out or write a Lady Bird. Obviously, these people have access and everything. And there's certain, you know, opportunities that might been afforded credit Gerwig or whatever. But the fact is, is that, you know, three billboards, you know, these are all movies that are doing, doing well, they're going to do well, no one who is involved with making them is on, is like, wow, I wish I hadn't been involved to get out. I mean, it's like, no way. And get out was, you know, a low, lower budget. Did not have any kind of, like a Avengers type of budget, and it was. But it all goes back to the writing, you know. And it you know. So just you know, people find, you know, writers and people want to find like, oh, well, stock market, or, you know, make some you know ideas about. And the bottom line is, it's ultimately an excuse not to deal like, to not to deal with the truth The truth is, is that we have to do what we were talking about earlier. We have to fight through the boredom to despair, keep working our drafts and make them so good that it blows people away. I mean, I got my short got into Sundance two years ago, and got me a job, like a feature writing job shortly thereafter, and it was all because of the work that I put into the short. And I made the short as best I knew. I just made it best I could. And, you know, and it worked, you know, it got into Sundance, and people saw it, and it landed, you know, it led to a really nice, you know, it helped, it can help my career, and it moved everything forward. And, you know, somebody be like, Oh, well, how? You know, it didn't follow any kind of formula or anything else in terms of, I just decided to make, you know, I was like, I want to make the sword to kind of show people I can direct. And, and it ended up doing things that I did not anticipate or expect and but I, but the thing that I did plan on doing was making it as best I could. And so everybody, and I know people like, well, whatever, you know, yeah, sure, write it. Work really hard in your on your screenplays. That's really great advice. Well, you know what? That's what happened? I mean, it's like, where do you think get out any of these movies? Anything that's like, comes out of nowhere. Any you know, anything that like, it's like, interesting. Where do you think it comes from? It comes from people like, picking up, you know, opening it up, getting going with their movie, working really hard on it, continuing to take notes, continuing to push it forward. That's that stuff that's never that's that has not changed, you know? And, yeah, the idea maybe it's a good thing that, like, oh, you can't just put together a high concept. And the movie, movie, you know, the studios are so scared somebody else is going to get it, so they buy something and it's like, sort of half baked, and it's not even that great, and then you don't even get to really work on it after they bought it. I mean, you know, maybe that's not really what we want, you know, maybe we want a system that is like that is exactly like that. It's like, write, a big, sick, write, write, write, something like three billboards. Come up with something created quite create a dramatic story, write a really funny comedy, write a really scary horror movie, and just make it the best you can, you know. And I think the market's gonna find you anyways, and it might be better than if they bought your high concept, you know, thing 15 years ago or 20 years ago. And did that, you know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 49:28
And the movie you took, the Sundance, was dog bowl, correct?

Gordy Hoffman 49:33
Yeah, yeah. That was a short I had a couple years ago that I that I had there, you know, good. That's also, that's on amazon prime. So if anybody you know wants to see it, it's, it's on Amazon Prime. So if you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free.

Dave Bullis 49:48
And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well.

Gordy Hoffman 49:51
So, yeah, yeah, just you know. So if you're like, like, I want to see if this guy knows what he's talking about, I would see his crappy short. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go check out his. Short, see if it's good. Man,

Dave Bullis 50:04
I want to check on when you go to Gordy Hoffman,

Gordy Hoffman 50:16
Yeah, you gotta, you gotta check up. You gotta watch dog bowl. Man, see like, Come on, man, check it out. It's nothing like, you know, you go and check somebody's movie like, oh, man, really? But I think people like, dog will good. It's got some nice, great actor. I mean, the star that is excellent. And I think people enjoy it, yeah,

Dave Bullis 50:35
You know, I remember, you know, I saw you were crowdfunding for that, and I just wanted to ask Gordy, you know, really quickly, you know, what were your experiences crowdfunding, that movie did, was crowdfunding what you thought it would be, or was a little harder, a little easier?

Gordy Hoffman 50:49
Oh, man, it's like, I mean, for somebody with low self esteem, I mean, it is brutal. You gotta, you gotta, like, you know, you gotta ask people for stuff. It's like, oh, I mean, it really, but you know what it was like. I was I, you know, I, you know, I stumbled onto a lot of things that you do. Well, it's, I mean, that's a whole nother podcast, but, you know, I, you know, I found my way through it. And people, I had a lot of people that wanted to help me, and I so I had a successful run, and then I hadn't finished the script yet, and I, like, I raised all this money, and I was like, Oh no. Now this has to be good. And talk about pressure. I was like, whoa. And, but then I, you know, then I kept it was great. I mean, you know, I really made you committed to, like, making a great movie. It was an excellent way to to fund the movie. It worked. I mean, man, I mean, think about all the Kickstarter campaigns, or crowdfunding campaigns you've been involved with. And, you know, unfortunately for my backers, you know, they backed a film that went to Sundance, you know. So they were like, they were like, wow, this is awesome. And then it went, then it went, you know, played all over the country, and, you know, so people were able to, most a lot of people that backed it, were able to see it in a theater, like at a festival, and, and I was at a lot of those festivals, so it was really, it was super fun, and, and, but, yeah, the Kickstarter was a lot of work. I mean, you know, it's, again, it's a whole other podcast, but, you know, there's a lot, there's a few, few tips for that. But if you ever want to do a Kickstarter, like, like, as I did two campaigns with dog ball, one the beginning, one at the end, and, yeah, I've got a raft of experience about that, and I always, always want to share that, because I think there's a lot of things that people do and they can avoid and and I think it's a great way to find the money to make a short film and show people that you can write and show people you can direct. And it, you know, I think it's Kickstarter is fantastic. But there are some things that I think people get, you know, and it usually goes ultimate, you know, in many ways, it goes back to, you know, something that bogs writers down, bogs filmmakers down is a lack of patience. I think people are impatient to launch their campaign. They're impatient to shoot. So they don't want to, like, do another draft, they don't want to write another movie that they want to get to shooting. And I think with Kickstarter, it's like, you just kind of want to launch it, you know. You're like, I want to, Okay, we're ready, you know. And then you launch it, and, you know, you don't really have your ducks in a row. You're not really ready. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, you know, like, I, I'm like, no one is no one. I don't really, I'm not really getting the money I thought I was gonna get, you know. And I think it goes back to having some patience and, you know, preparing and doing the right work and getting it all ready and doing exactly what you would do if you were, you know, wanting to shoot a script, you know, just taking the time to do it.

Dave Bullis 53:52
Yeah, you know, I crowdfunded way back when, in like, 2010 and I did it again in 2011 and you know, it was explaining people what crowdfunding was at that time. Because, you know, not, you know, nowadays, everybody has a Kickstarter. It seems, I think some people get a little burned out. But, I mean, when you're actually doing it, Gordy, I hear you. I was right there with you, because he feels, you know, you're like, my god, is this seeing even gonna be possible? You know, our people, you know, because everyone will tell you what I what I usually do is, and this is really quickly running out of time. I call, I call it the 1% rule. And so if you ask 100 people to donate to your crowdfunding campaign, 99 everyone, everyone's gonna tell you, Yes, but 99 won't do it, and that one person will actually go through it and give you some money. So if you use that 1% rule, that's what the that's the multiplication that you're gonna have to do to make sure that you have your movie, so your multiplication, your and your division. And then, if you figure, you have to tell that many people. So if you know that, you're gonna need, maybe, like, I don't know, $20,000 $20,000 you have to, kind of, can, you know, figure out how many people you're gonna have to talk to in order to get that done. Because, you know, everyone does what's called Chinese math, and they're like, Well, if I had 20,000 people each give me $1 I'd have them all the money. Or I need only one person to give me $20,000 you know what I mean. So it's kind of like, you know, using all that to your advantage, you have to figure out, you know, okay, these are where I could go. These are the family, these are the friends. They can give me 30% you know, it's so stuff like that that, you know, you've learned as you, as you go about doing all this stuff,

Gordy Hoffman 55:36
Yeah, yeah, it's a, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on with it. But I think it, I mean, it boils down to content, how you present, you know, your idea. And I think there's a lot of pitfalls with that. I figure people think, oh, I should make a four minute video. No one in the world has ever watched a four minute video. No one watches four minute videos ever. It's like, you know, and it's like, let me explain it. Let me bring everybody in. Let's talk for seven minutes about what the movie's maybe about. Nobody want to nobody wants to watch that, you know, it's like, so there's these things that you sort of realize it's like, you know, make a 45 second video, you know, and and like, write a little bit about it. People want to read it. They're going to find it. But basically, just give them a little video reminder. Make sure you have a ton of rewards. Make sure you have a lot of different ways for people to get in. If you only have 120 $5 award, and then the next 170 $5 you're gonna be in trouble, you know. But if you have five different $25 awards, you know, some people don't want DVDs, you know. They don't want a poster, you know. And it's like, if the only thing at that money level is a poster, then they're like, I don't want to poster, you know. But if you're like, oh, you know, I won't give you anything at $25 you get people signed up for that because they don't want anything mailed to them. So, I mean, it's like, it's amazing. I mean, all these things that I sort of learned while I was doing it,

Dave Bullis 57:00
Yeah, it's, um, it's all the things, you know, speaking of the video really quickly. I know we were almost out of time, but really, but I once had a friend of mine, his crowdfunding campaign was not going anywhere. And he said, Could you, you know, he goes, Dave, I know you've done this before. Would you mind looking at this for me? And I looked at it, and Gordy, he had him. He had like a nine or 10 minute trailer, so to speak. And it was him talking on the couch. I said, my God. I said, what could you pot? There was no like other shots, there was no like footage of the movie, or even concept art or the storyboard, or nothing, even the screenplay, for God's sakes. It was literally him on a couch talking for like 10 minutes. And I said, Dude, I know you, and I don't want to donate money to this.

Gordy Hoffman 57:45
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really, I mean, I learned that, like, right when I was doing it, they, I mean, somebody, I was reading a blog, and somebody was like, we, we watched, we watched videos for six months, like, we just studied Kickstarter campaigns for six months. And I was like, wow, okay. And they were like, and we ended up making a movie. We ended our video ended up being two minutes, or a minute and a half or something like that. And they said, and we should have made it shorter. And I was like, when I heard that, I was like, whoa. And so my, you know, my video is 70 seconds. I think it's like a minute, and I made it like a deconstruct. I did like this. I just came up with a quick concept. I went out and shot it, and it was, it was a little bit slapped together, but it was like, I just, I was like, I'm gonna sort of do the anti Kickstarter video. And not really it was different, but people loved the video, you know. And it was like, it was people really responded to the video, because it just reminded people, like, oh, Gordy's talented. It's funny, or whatever, you know, they just said, enough. And then, you know, so. And then I just I, and I also believe I had a lot of rewards. I had creative rewards. They were funny to read, and I had a ton of different ones. You know, not so many that people couldn't make a decision, but I just had a lot of lot of ways for people to participate. And I also just remember that it's like, just remember, not everybody wants a DVD, and if you apply that principle to every war that you give, then you're going to come up with alternatives. And you'll be surprised that people will actually, they'll take the other thing, and you'll be like, Oh, they don't even want a DVD, or they don't even want to a download, or, you know, they just want to this, you know, they want to actually have that, or whatever. And, but, yeah, the videos, you know, I don't think I've ever watched a video. I mean, anything, it's over like, you literally. And everyone you go on, they're always, like, four minutes long. It's like, you kidding me? I mean, no one watches Nobody. Nobody watches that. Not even, you know, not to anyone related to them. Nobody, nobody watch. You know, it's just. Too long, man, it's too long, dude. Okay, come on, man,

Dave Bullis 1:00:10
The best crowdfunding video I've ever seen, Gordy. This guy actually pretended he was kidnapped, and the they filmed it, and he was actually, and his guys were like, well, you know, you need this money. And he would goes, well, I'll get it. And they like, who's gonna give you this money? He said, I'll go to crowd, I'll go to Kickstarter and or Indiegogo. He goes, I'll ask for money on that. And he goes, Well, they go, really, you can do that. And they that was the pitch. And it was actually, it tied into the movie as well, because it was about a kidnapping. So it was actually pretty creative. And it was the the body by Kenny G, not, not the musician, by the way, it was, but it was another, another Kenny G, but, but, but I'll link to that. Everyone in the show know us, but it was actually really, really good, good crowdfunding campaign, and he ended up making the movie, but, but, you know, Gordy, I know we're running out of time. I just in closing, Gordy, I just want to talk about Blue Cat again. I know Blue Cat, it's open for submissions right now for the 2018 season. So if you could, you know, just in the in the few minutes we have left, could you just, you know, give us a little more information about Blue Cat.

Gordy Hoffman 1:01:21
Well, everybody should know that we have really great readers, and we provide written analysis on every script that enters. So if you enter blue cat, you will get notes back on your script. Google read your entire script, and you will get notes back. So that's, that's a lot of people still don't know about that, but Blue Cat's been doing that for, you know, over 15 years now. But that's, that's, that's one of our traditions, and we do that as a part of the entry fee. We accept features shorts pilots have both hour and half hour and we are also accepting short films this year, the first time we've ever done that. So we're gonna have a screening next June of the top short films that we receive. The deadlines, February 20 and the next. I'm not sure when you're airing this, but February 20 is the is the next, is the final deadline. And you know, you can Google us and sure you guys will have the links for that. But, yeah, I mean, if you're ready to submit, you'd like to get some notes. Blue Cats, great for that. If you've got you're really, really excited about your script, please send it to us. If you're still like knowing you needed to work on it, then work on it. Send it to Nichols or Austin later on the year. And you can, you can get back to us in the future, but, you know, just use blue cat, use screenplay contests to, you know, to help you and encourage you to develop yourself and and only when that happens. You know, should you be using screenplay contests? But yeah, we're really excited. We, you know, we have a great, such a fantastic group of readers. I'm very proud of them, and and, and everyone really loves our feedback. So, you know, looking looking forward to meeting the next winner. And, you know, the next winners, and, and, yeah. So I'm looking forward to getting your scripts.

Dave Bullis 1:03:19
Yeah. And, like I said, I've entered group blue cap before, and I really like the feedback that I got. And like I said, go to you somebody I've wanted to have on here before, because you have, you have the right, you know, attitude, the personality, to run a screw any competition. You're not only the founder, but you're also, like, this brand ambassador for it. And you know, you have that right attitude for it, man, and I and, you know, that's why it's so cool having you on recording so every interview. You know what I mean? It's like, you're the type of guy, like, nothing bothers you. You know what I mean? You're just like, you just go with the flow.

Gordy Hoffman 1:03:53
Well, I appreciate that, man, you know, hopefully I can remember that sometimes when I'm at traffic out in Los Angeles, but, yeah, I look forward to being back on again. Man. It was a great talk. I could, we could probably keep going. I mean, so if you ever want me back on, I'd love to talk about anything you don't want to get into. There's a lot of stuff in the just great interview. And love having, love being on,

Dave Bullis 1:04:17
Oh, and I love to have you back on Gordy. And before we we sort of cut this off. Where can people find you out online?

Gordy Hoffman 1:04:27
Well, you can find me, if you Google, you can find my, probably my Instagram account and my, you know, I don't really tweet a lot, but I do have a Twitter account, and, you know, you can reach out to me through Blue Cat. It's pretty easy to find blue cat, and you can reach out to me there and stuff, and I'm also, you know, one of the things that we do where there's a lot of interaction is we have something called the Blue Cat Writers Group, and that's on Facebook, and it's a closed group, but pretty much anyone who wants to join just gets approved and. And we always have weekly discussion questions, and, you know, there's a lot of interaction, and it's very positive, and it's not overwhelming, and there's not a lot of, you know, extra stuff in there. It's really, you know, it's really about the craft of writing and sort of give and take around that. So that's another place that people can find me,

Dave Bullis 1:05:18
And I'll make sure everyone to link to all of Gordy's social media links in the show notes. But Gordy Hoffman, man, it has been a blast talking to you, and I definitely would like to have you back on because we, you know, other guy, like we were just saying, you know, we could, we could talk for another whole, another hour or two,

Gordy Hoffman 1:05:34
Right! Well, looking forward to it, Dave.

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BPS 406: Unveiling the Art of Screenwriting A Journey with Kristin Overn

February 13, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a certain magic in the way creativity stirs the soul, and on today’s episode, we welcome Kristin Overn, a seasoned producer and the visionary behind the PAGE International Screenwriting Awards. With a career steeped in the art of storytelling, Kristin has spent years cultivating opportunities for writers to transform their ideas into scripts that resonate across the industry.

Kristin’s journey began in the theater world, studying playwriting and directing at Northwestern University. Her love for stories soon led her westward, to the bustling hive of Hollywood. “I’ve always been fascinated by story,” she reflects. “It’s the common thread that connects us all.” In Los Angeles, she worked tirelessly—starting as an assistant and script reader, gradually earning her stripes in film production. But her heart’s true calling emerged as she realized a profound gap in the industry: connecting new writers with emerging producers.

This insight birthed the PAGE Awards, a screenwriting competition designed not just to showcase talent but to bridge the divide between raw creativity and industry access. Kristin’s philosophy is simple yet profound: “Every great script deserves a champion, someone who sees its potential and helps it take flight.” Over the years, the competition has grown exponentially, now receiving over 6,000 entries annually. Its rigorous vetting process ensures that only the most compelling stories rise to the top—a beacon of hope for aspiring writers seeking their breakthrough.

Kristin’s candid advice to screenwriters is a reminder of the industry’s complexity and the persistence it demands. “Find your voice,” she urges. “Don’t try to be the next Quentin Tarantino or Diablo Cody. Be unapologetically you.” Her anecdotes, drawn from years of working with writers and producers, illustrate the transformative power of authentic storytelling—where characters leap off the page and evoke emotions that linger.

The episode dives deep into the intricacies of screenwriting competitions, the challenges of script development, and the significance of receiving professional feedback. Kristin’s passion for mentorship shines as she describes the thrill of connecting PAGE winners with managers, agents, and producers who can bring their stories to life. “There’s nothing quite like seeing a writer’s hard work pay off,” she says, with a palpable sense of joy.

As the conversation unfolds, Kristin’s wisdom offers not just technical insights but a deeper understanding of the human connection that underpins all great storytelling. Her belief in the power of perseverance and the beauty of imperfection reminds us that the road to success is often paved with lessons learned from failure.

“At the end of the day,” Kristin concludes, “the stories that move us are the ones that come from the heart. They’re honest, raw, and unapologetically human.” It’s a sentiment that echoes long after the episode ends, leaving listeners inspired to pick up their pens and tell their own truths.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
My next guest began her career as an assistant and script reader at Davis entertainment, and she's also a producer's guild member. She's a Director's Guild member, and she's been running this competition now for about 14 years now, and a record high 6,364 scripts were submitted last year. This is a fun episode, especially for all you screenwriters out there. This is purely about screenwriting, with guest Kristin Overn.

Kristin Overn 2:24
Okay, yeah. Many moons ago, I was a student at Northwestern University studying theater, and I focused very much on directing and playwriting, and I loved that side of the entertainment industry, but I stayed in Chicago for a couple of years, but then very shortly, discovered not only how difficult it is to make a living doing theater, but I was repeatedly encouraged by many friends of mine who had moved out to the West Coast to come out to Los Angeles. And one guy in particular was telling me that I'd make a great what they call a D girl. Back then, that was the early 90s, and D girl was a development girl, a lot of women were working, reading scripts, doing script evaluation at the time, and advancing through the ranks in that way. And I was fascinated by that. I love story. I love storytelling so and I love the weather out here. It was cold and snowy in Chicago, so I finally made the move. And I started out as an assistant, like so many people do, I worked in television on a show called Chicago hope, and I also worked at a place called Davis entertainment, which John Davis' company made some major movies and television at the time as well, and did development for some other companies, slowly, kind of worked my way up, but then took a little detour. I ended up being invited to co produce a feature film, a little independent movie, million dollar feature that a buddy of mine was producing and directing, and he wanted me to work with him. He needed somebody on his side who he could trust and who he felt could help make the movie happen. So I jumped on board, and suddenly I was working in production, in film production, and it was, you know, education by trial by fire, but it was a great experience. And so then I started working more and more in production and learning more and more about that. And I produce theater, but film, of course, has its own quirks and problems and issues, and it was, it was a fabulous education, and I did that for several years, but all the while that I was working in production, doing budgets and hiring crews and working on these low budget features, my real passion has always been storytelling, developing scripts, editing, working with writers, and I discovered a real need. Because one of the things I learned as I was working with all these, all these little independent movies, is that there are were, and still are many. The. Up and coming, new producers and junior agents and new managers, people who are honestly looking for new writers who have a hard time connecting with them because the new writers don't know to pitch them. They don't know how to get to them, because they don't even know, in many cases, that they exist and but these are the people who are truly open to working with new writers, because they're all so new and they want, they're looking for that fresh voice. And I conceived of the idea of the page awards at a contest, using a contest as a means to be like a development department when I, when I was at Davis entertainment, John had money, and they had a big staff, and they had a lot a lot of people reading scripts and evaluating them, moving them up the ranks to the point where they would eventually, hopefully finally, get to his desk. So I thought we could use a contest the exact same way. And so that's when I founded the page awards. It was back in the fall of 2003 and we've been going hot and heavy ever since it's been growing and building and it's it's actually worked beautifully in the way, I hope, which is that it's connected a lot of new writers with new up and coming managers who are looking for new clients and producers looking for new scripts.

Dave Bullis 6:17
You mentioned Kristin about new writers finding producers, and producers sometimes don't know where to look, or maybe, you know, new screenwriters don't know how to pitch them. And in today's, you know, marketplace with where we have all these different, you know, websites and, you know, not meaning like, you know, social media, and you have all these, you know, different contests and stuff like that. Do you think that it's easier now or it's harder now for for that, that connection to happen simply because, you know, there's so many producers and there's so many writers and that and producers are getting hit by so many different directions. You know, is it harder for talent to sort of stand out?

Kristin Overn 7:00
That's a really good point. It in some ways, it can be it may be easier for you as the writer, to find people who are looking for new material online. However, as you said, they're getting a barrage of material, and it's not vetted. And the thing that a contest will do, for example, like ours, is vet the material for the producer. And the reason we have a lot of these people reading the final round of our contest. They'll say, I want to read your top 10 thrillers, or your top 10 TV dramas, or whatever it is. And they know that by the time these scripts have advanced to the top 10 to the final round, they've been vetted by 4 or 5 6 8, other people. And so they know that the material is really strong. So that's that's the extra sauce that we add to the process at this point.

Dave Bullis 7:46
Yeah, you know, I always hear about, you know, all the different, like, different avenues that people could use to and I know I'm kind of getting away from screenwriting, but just using as an example, you know, all of the different avenues that people could use to distribute their film, you know, going on to YouTube or Vimeo, etc. And, you know, as I've talked to different guests on here, that's something that we've always come back to, is, is, you know, how do you, you know, get the attention of, you know, buyers? How do you get the attention of certain people that you're looking for? How do you get the attention of your target market? And I remember there was an interview with Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rigas, and they were kind of talking somewhat similar about that. And you know, Tarantino was, was very adamant in the fact that, you know, the the best quality material, whether it be a screenplay or a movie or a piece of music, will always rise to the top and will sort of, you know, get above the noise, so to speak,

Kristin Overn 8:39
Absolutely I believe that. And so the more people that you have reading it and kind of giving it a stamp of approval, if you will, the more people in the industry can sort of trust that, yeah, other people like this. So, you know, I can take a look, and there is, you know, there's a certain amount of what everyone else likes I should like as well. There's a Hollywood is a funny, funny place in that regard. You know, opinions. Sometimes people aren't always as sure of their own opinions as they are of other people's opinions, if that makes sense. And so that's when you hear about situations like, if one manager wants to wants to sign you, suddenly three others are chomping at the bit as well because they feel like they don't want to miss out on something good. It's competitive, and it it can work to your benefit, it could work against you sometimes, but it's just the nature of the beast. I think.

Dave Bullis 9:32
Yeah, very, very true. And, you know, I know we were kind of, you know, as we're talking about distribution, I'm kind of getting ahead here, but I wanted to sort of ask too about, you know, getting started in your career, you know, because you produce a lot of things, you know, you've produced a lot of films, you've worked as a year production manager, and you work as a location manager, you work as a line producer.

And I wanted to ask, Has has this experience when you, when you, when you started out, and as you have gone through your career, how has this experience sort of helped you out your current position at page? I mean, have you sort of, well, you know, I'm sorry, I should, I shouldn't add to that question, Kristen, so I'll just keep it at that, you know, how did this, all this experience, you know, help you with with Paige, as we, as you are the executive director now,

Kristin Overn 10:28
No, it's a great question, because it does. I mean, a lot of people, I think, sit in offices reading a lot of scripts, and that's great. That's one thing. But when you've actually been in the trenches on the set, set, they're figuring out budgets, seen what actually happens on the set with certain issues in the script that began day one, when the script, you know, was presented, you learn a lot about what works and what doesn't in production, and it is helpful in terms of evaluating material. That said, I will tell you. I mean, the projects I did were all small. They were low budget projects. And a lot of the scripts that win the contest in the action adventure category or historical film are big budget movies. So in that sense, you know, it's like, I don't know that the writer should think of limitations always. I mean, you know, especially depending on the type of movie you're writing, you know, don't be limited if you have a vision for a huge, big movie. I mean, if that's what it wants to be, that's what it wants to be. But if you are trying to write a film that a new producer can do for a million dollars, you know, there are, there are budgetary constraints. There are certain thing you don't you can't usually afford tons of cast of 1000s, you know, huge numbers of extras. CGI is becoming more and more affordable, so that's less and less of a constraint than it used to be. And there will are people who can do it very inexpensively, but still, you know, there are a lot of things you want to keep in mind if you're trying to write something low budget.

Dave Bullis 11:58
Yeah, I think that's a good point Kristen, and I wanted to, just to sort of follow up that question. Follow up that question, if somebody did have a script, whether it be a short, short screenplay or a feature length screenplay, and you know, they they said, you know, they wanted to make it themselves. And since you have the producing experience and the screenwriting experience, have you ever, do you have you had friends or clients or people you just met, who you know. Have you ever heard had anybody who's had a lot of luck? I don't say luck. I want to say success. Thank you. I was trying to figure out, trying to find that word. Have you had anyone who has had a lot of success doing something like that? Because the reason I ask is, Is that also, I've seen more and more where somebody like we were just discussing is, you know, somebody wants to produce their film. Somebody wants to produce their screenplay. Well, hey, I'm not gonna, you know, I don't want anyone to have to say yes or give me the green light. I'm gonna give myself the green light and go out and do it. So I wanted to ask you a question, have you had any you know, any people that you know, have any success in doing this?

Kristin Overn 13:00
Absolutely, many of our winners actually have gone ahead and done that. They had that in mind all along with their project, and they wrote it for themselves to direct, and they have, in fact, done so a lot of short films. Obviously, we've had a few people who have been maybe grad students at UCLA, USC, wherever, and perhaps the script they sent us was their graduate thesis or just a project that they wanted to produce coming out of school. And they're very aware of, you know, what it's going to take and how much it's going to cost. And usually they're putting up the money, or their families putting up the money, or whatever. So yeah, and they've been very successful shorts. We also had a script that a couple of scripts that won the contest, that had been produced by features, by the writers themselves and directed by the writers themselves. And one that I can think of right now is landed distribution, and I think will become, be coming out on Netflix and a couple of other places. It's been around the festival circuit. One of our winners, Laurie welts, wrote a script called scout. It was produced by another producer, but she directed it, and that has had a really nice distribution in the festivals, and it was on Netflix. A few weeks ago, I saw it on Netflix, and so yeah, and that's really exciting. We encourage it. We We're so excited by writers who are willing, able to do that? Because that's, you know, that's, it's such a, a, it's, it's such a huge learning process. And B, it's, you know, taking your career into your own hands. And that's wonderful when you can do that.

Dave Bullis 14:35
Yeah, very, very true. And just to continue with that question, Kristin, you know, as just as we talk about producing films right now, I wanted to ask if we took it the opposite way, which is meaning that somebody did something that was they aimed way too high and then, but for the resources that they had. And honestly, I'm guilty that as well. I've done that before, where I try. Had to make, you know, this action shoot him up at short film, and it's, and you realize you don't have the crew for it, you don't have the CGI people for it. You don't have, you know, the time to set up all these, you know, you know, gunplay scenes and stuff like that. So have you seen that too? Kristen, the where you've had people who just, you know they wanted, they said, Hey, Kristen, can you, can you, can I show you my movie? And it's just, you know, you're it's just you know, you could tell they they fell short.

Kristin Overn 15:30
Yeah. I mean, well, of course, you every once in a while, you see a short film or a project that has somebody attempted to shoot and they just ran out of money at some point. And you know, that's always too bad when that happens. But again, it's a it's a big, it's a big learning experience. And you know, we all, we all go through our learning experiences, whatever they are, and hopefully come through it and and continue despite whatever problems you might have had with your first project,

Dave Bullis 15:59
Yeah, and see that's, that's what happened to me, you know, just, just speaking for my own personal experience. Is what happened was, I am too high, you know, I made a student short film and I got, you know, very, very comfortable with, you know, you know, making, you know, you know what I mean. You make a student film, and then suddenly, you know, you're like, oh, okay, I got this. I can now. I made a very simple student short film. I can now make a John Woods like movie. Why not? Right? So that sudden, you know you're falling short. And I think we learn a lot more from our failures and our successes, because as the saying goes, sometimes, you know, with successes you sometimes people get lucky. They really do, as I've learned in life, sometimes you get lucky and you have the right crew in front of you. Sometimes you get lucky and you find the money. Sometimes you get lucky and the location pops up. But with failures, you realize, oh, wait a minute, this isn't my time to make this film or, or for and I'll give you another example to Kristen is I had a friend who was making a time travel movie, and she wanted to make it where, you know, I think it was like the 1800s I think, or the 1700s and I was explaining to her, you know, you're gonna have to buy all these, you know, or, I'm sorry, not buy, but rent all these time period clothes. You're gonna have to worry about cars and everything like that. You're gonna have to worry about planes. And I said, you know, how are you gonna pull this off? And and she was gung ho about it. And when we saw the final project, she said, Oh, now I see what you were talking about. Because she admitted to because, you know, you could spend, you know, a couple grand on Colonial Era clothes in a flash, you know what I mean, in a blink of an eye, and then all of a sudden you're like, Well, okay, that's just, you know, a handful of clothes and, you know, and what else you're gonna spend the rest, you don't have any money to spend the rest of for it, to buy anything else for this movie. So, you know, that's, that's another learning experience. So that's just what I mean by falling short. I want you know it's you learn a lot from your failures, and sometimes we learn more from our failures and our successes.

Kristin Overn 17:57
Absolutely true. God knows that's true for me, and I have to say she had the opportunity to learn from your failures, which is even better, because I always say I'd rather learn from someone else's failures, so I listened very closely to other people, and she made the mistake, perhaps, of not listening to you in that case, but she learned the lesson anyway, and she had to go through it, and I'm sure she got a lot out of it despite whatever happened, you know, because that's what that's what Life is all about at the end of the day,

Dave Bullis 18:23
Yeah, and trust me, there's, there's one thing I know, it's how to fail. So, so it's how to fail, how to fail often, but, but you know, you, you sort of, as you meet at different people, you you learn that almost everyone has made some kind of mistake like that, where they try to do way too much, too early, as they started making their films, I've learned that from just doing this podcast, you know, they make a simple film to begin, or they maybe again, maybe they got, they were in the right place the right time, and they got an amazing crew, or what have you. And the second film and the third film were like, Wait, what happened here? You're taking like, you know, steps backwards, so

Kristin Overn 19:03
The sophomore curse, or something like that, you know, I don't know, but yeah, it's, it's that happens a lot. We have that in the contest as well. I've seen situations where writers somewhat rare, but it happens there's because of their just basic writing talent, somehow what they piece together, almost by intuition, accident, whatever is just really works. But then they try to write that second and third and fourth script, and somehow it kind of all dissipates and and, you know, you wonder, well, then they have to go back and learn the lessons that they and solidify the understanding of why the first script worked, why the first script worked, and you know, how they can replicate it, although I hate the word replicate, but replicate the elements of that that worked, you know, so it's, it's fascinating.

Dave Bullis 19:55
Yeah, that's actually really interesting. You know, if somebody writes, you know, a script, you know the first one there, let's call it the freshman, the freshman script, and they hit it out of the park. It's a home run. It's you know, everyone you know loves it that people want to read it and the second and third script aren't there. I mean, it, you know, is it usually because maybe they were trying a different method? Is it maybe because they just tried to just rush things out too quickly? I mean, is that some of the things that you've seen?

Kristin Overn 20:35
I have no you know, I honestly have to say I have no idea why it doesn't work the second time or the third time. I have no idea what it is that sparked first one that just somehow didn't work in the second, third and fourth. It can be probably any one of the things you mentioned, you know, but, but I we have a situation recently. I don't think the right writer would mind, because I think he's talked about it himself. He won this page awards and 2007 with his very first screenplay, and he's been working on it ever since, and his subsequent efforts haven't quite worked as well. And he says himself, he's just had to go through a huge learning, kind of relearning process to really understand what it is that makes a screenplay work, even though, intuitively, he did something wonderful the first time out of the gate. And now this year, he won another prize with us. He's kept getting notes, he's kept reading, he's he's gone to conferences. He's just really continued to work and stuck with it, and at the end of the day, that's brought him back to maybe where he began. But now with that basis of really solid understanding of the process, the writing process, what it, you know, a better understanding of screenplays as a craft, you know,

Dave Bullis 21:53
Yeah, and that's interesting too, because you mentioned he, he wrote his first screenplay, and that's what he he ended up winning with in 2007 so does that happen a lot in your experience?

Kristin Overn 22:06
No, no, it doesn't. Most of the time. To be honest, people's first screenplays are can be kind of a train wreck. I mean, sometimes they just haven't bothered to really study the form at all. They sometimes writers think they know how to format a script better than the people who do it every day, you know. Or they think they don't have to study know anything about structure or what I don't know what it is, but they think they've seen a lot, I guess what it is, they think they've seen a lot of bad movies, and so their movie is bound to be better than all these bad movies they've seen, but most of the time, people's first efforts are not, are not, you know, they don't reveal their full potential. It's only after, most people will tell you, it takes many scripts before you really achieve something wonderful and special and something that's going to get you signed or something that's going to get produced. But there are exceptions, like, I mean, every once in a while that you run across somebody who whose very first script is just somehow magic. I don't know what to tell you. There's a little mystery to the whole thing, which is what makes it fun.

Dave Bullis 23:15
It reminds me what Shane Black once said he was doing this, this Q and A session, and and somebody asked him a question. He said, all the time he gets, you know, a lot of go get an email, or he'll get a note sent to him, sent to him via his agent, from, from like, a, you know, a fan or filmmaker, what have you. And it's always Hey, you know, Hey, Shane, I saw this movie in a blockbuster to Netflix or whatever, and I could write better than that. So I decided to write. And then Shane usually goes back with, Well, I'm glad that you think your mediocrity is better than some other mediocrity that you saw. And he said his advice is, is, instead of, you know, using that as saying, Oh, I could write better than this, how the hell is that a movie? You know, he's like you should really just want to do it in general, regardless of you know, if you think you could write better than than some other movie that's out there

Kristin Overn 24:06
Exactly, it's got to be, at the end of the day, it's got to be a passion that you're willing to stick with. And that's again, why I admire this writer who stuck with it all these years, even though his second and third and fourth efforts were not as successful as his first. I mean, his first script did not end up selling, but it got a lot of good attention, and it's still a viable movie, from my point of view. So, you know, but it takes that kind of dedication and passion, and if you've got it, you know, stick with it. Keep keep at it, and study and read and talk with other writers and be part of a writers group, and don't be afraid to get notes. A lot of beginning writers are really afraid of getting feedback on their scripts, because, honestly, they're afraid of what the person reading their script is going to say, and they don't want to hear it. You know, deep down, it's like, you don't want to hear that you have cancer or something. You know, it's, it's you don't want the bad news. But the truth is, um. That's what's going to help you grow again. It's your mistakes that, you know, learning from your mistakes that is going to get you to the next level as a screenwriter.

Dave Bullis 25:08
You know, that is 100% true. You know, I actually used to run a screenwriting group, and we would have people who would want to join. You know, every so often somebody would come in and and say, Hey, I have a friend, where I have somebody else who wants to join. And this one time somebody came in, he was a first time screenwriter, and he actually had illustrations within his screenplay. And I, and I, you know, something, I was a little nicer about it. I was like, hey, you know, I wrote a little note on there, hey, don't put in, you know, illustrations of a design and a screenplay. Like, you know you're not, you know you're not like a James Cameron level, where he could just do whatever he wants and no one's gonna bat an eye. You know, if you're using this as a calling card or what have you, it has to follow certain guidelines. Other people just put on the put in the script. They were like, No, an exclamation point and stuff. Like, you know what? I mean? It's just, it's, it is very hard, especially when, you know, you put all this effort and time to a screenplay and you get feedback, and you know, people tell you, hey, you know what? It just isn't good. Or, or some people will say, hey, look, it just sucks. And I think that what happens is, is, I think we, we kind of view it as an extension of ourselves. So we think, hey, look, this screenplay sucks, therefore I suck

Kristin Overn 26:23
Exactly it. You know, it's your baby and, and I know that, for example, the folks who read for us, the judges who read for us and write notes. And we talked to them about this a lot. You know, it's, it's critical that they understand that each script is a writer's baby, and they believe in it and love it and, and our job is to help them make it better and advance as writers. And I think our judges really try to do that. But I I have also heard a lot about writing groups where things can get pretty brutal. Sometimes other writers can be, you know, your toughest critics. You know you're, I don't know it's, it can be really great to be part of a writers group. I've heard some horror stories too. So it's all about putting together the right group of people that are going to, you know, grow together as a group.

Dave Bullis 27:10
Yes, very, very true. And about if everybody is really a part of the same goal, which is to be a professional writer, a working writer. And, you know, I was a part of another group where every meeting, every month, we met once a month, and every month we would have a whole new batch of people show up. So we would have to explain, like, the beginning of screenwriting, you know, we Hey, this is what formatting is. Hey, go buy final draft. Hey, you know, make sure that you're, you're all set. We know what I mean. Like, it's all, it's all these things. And finally, we started, you know, me and the guy, the guy who ran it at that point in time, we said, Wait a minute here. You know, we're kind of like spinning our wheels in the mud, because every meeting we're just briefing these, these new, you know, new people, and then they leave, and then we're getting a whole nother group, and then we're explaining it to them. So it's like, at some somebody once told me that the best way to run a run a writers group is to gain entry, you have to submit a screenplay, a fully, a feature length screenplay, and every, every member, sort of, you know, takes it and gives her feedback, and then you take a vote on it. But that's the key, is they have to have written at least one screenplay

Kristin Overn 28:18
That's very smart. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Or if it's a group of people, none of whom have written a screenplay, that's fine, too. But then you're on the same level, and you're learning together, you know? But the commitment is the other part. It sounds like it sounds brutal to be losing people all the time and have bringing in new people all the time, that would be really hard.

Dave Bullis 28:37
Yeah, you know what I think it was, was because, the reason we had that, that constant flux of people leaving and coming, leaving and coming, was because of the the time did change every month. And also, I think that a lot of people weren't really ready for, like, Oh, this is a real writers group, you know, because, like everybody, like the about the three or four people who are, I would say we're at the, sort of like, I guess, top of the group, if you know, though. I mean, we all, I mean, it was myself and through the guys and we, we all are doing stuff now, you know, I in the, in the business, one way or another. But the thing is, like everybody else, I think, was more long lines up. They wanted to start, like, a beginners group, you know what? I mean, like, Hey, I you know, because it's kind of like, you know, if you want to go play a sport or something, you know, you want to start on a team with other people that are, you know, you're like, you know, around, like, your your skill level, you don't want to start, and all of a sudden, you're, you're playing with people who've been, who are veterans, playing for years. You know what? I mean, it's just kind of, you get a little intimidated, if you will,

Kristin Overn 29:38
Absolutely, and it needs to be mutually beneficial for everybody involved, you know, so it's best if you're all kind of on roughly the same level. I think, yeah,

Dave Bullis 29:47
Exactly. And I'm not saying, like I'm some expert either, Kristen, I'm not, oh yes. I'm just saying, You know what? I mean. It's just like, sometimes, you know, in this business, sometimes things could get intimidating, period, you know. You see, you see a film in a film festival, you're a part of, you're like, Oh, well, God damn it, that person is better than me. I have no shot of winning, so, you know. And it's, I think it's happened to everybody,

Kristin Overn 30:20
Sure, sure. And it's understandable that people get intimidated, you know, because it's hard, and you know you're vulnerable, because it's your baby, then it's, that's, that's, that's what makes it great, though, that you know when, when you have that kind of passion for your project and you care that much, it's, it's both a curse and a blessing, because, you know, it's what, it's what is ultimately going to make your writing special, and that project special, it's also what's going to make you vulnerable to taking notes personally, or, you know, driving people away because you're too difficult to deal with, or whatever the situation is. So, you know, there you go. It's just part and parcel of the business.

Dave Bullis 31:03
Yeah, very, very true. And I wanted to ask to Kristen, as we sort of get into this about about page in general, you know, as we were talking the pre interview, there was an impetus for you to start page. And I wanted to ask, you know, what was that point in time in your life where you decided to actually start the competition.

Kristin Overn 31:23
It was a time when I was doing a lot of producing. I was working as a line producer. I was doing a lot of budgets for people reading a lot of scripts. And I really realized that I just missed the writing aspect, working with writers and evaluating scripts and helping writers develop scripts, and all of that that was more my passion than all of the work I was doing on movies to get movies made. That that's a grueling life, and I have friends who are great at it and who love it, but you're working 20 hour days for weeks at a time, and then suddenly the project is over. You got to have another gig right away and move on to the next. And it's it's a it's a tough life, and it wasn't the kind of creative life that I wanted. So I wanted to get back into working with writers and reading scripts and working with people who evaluate scripts, which is what all our judges are. And also being a little bit of a matchmaker, I have to tell you, I love the opportunity to take our winners and introduce them to certain judges. Sometimes I have a hint hit that a certain judge is really going to love a certain script, and maybe if they even read a different category, it's like, ah, yeah, I know you read the comedies, but I think you're really going to love this family film, and so I slip it to them in the process. And sometimes that works out, and it's really exciting when that happens.

Dave Bullis 32:49
So when you actually started Paige, you know, what was some of the responses that, you know, you first got? I mean, you know, again, like, when you start anything, like we were just discussing, you know, it's very nerve wracking. You get very nervous, you know, because there's always that feeling, you know, what, if I fail, you know. So, so what were you feeling when, you know, when you first started page?

Kristin Overn 33:07
Well, yeah, you're nervous that it's not going to work. Of course, luckily, because we did something unique with page at the time, which has since become pretty common, which is that we split the contest into these different genre categories. Initially we had nine. Now we have 10, and we have the judges evaluate scripts only in the genre that they're most interested in reading. Sometimes people like reading several, but we focus. We have them focus on one. And so basically they're kind of comparing apples to apples, if you will. Of course, not every drama is like every other drama, but at least you're not comparing a drama to a sci fi film or whatever. So you know that that that has been a real help on every level, both in terms of the judging process. The writers love being able to submit in a certain genre, knowing that their script is really going to be read by people who love that particular type of script, and that way, we could also present awards in the different categories and send out promotions. And so if people are looking for our top 10 sci fi scripts or whatever, we can send them those it's it's ended up working out really well over time. And sort of the when you talk about the beginnings of the contest, that was, that was one of the key things that I saw working right away, and I felt was really important. And so that's kind of kind of kept me going through the first couple of years, even though, of course, the first couple of years, we got about 1000 entries, which was pretty good, but, you know, it was tough to make ends meet. It was, we were still operating at a loss, but it was, I could see that this could really work, and people were starting to find projects that they liked, and that kept me going, you know, in the beginning, because I felt like, yeah, this idea is good. This idea will work. We. Have to get the word out, and it has to become better known.

Dave Bullis 35:04
So just to go now to sort of Flash forward to today, you know, 2017 how many submissions do you get a year now?

Kristin Overn 35:15
We got about 6300, both the past couple of years. So that's we're almost peaked out. I think the nickel receives just over 7000 lately. The past couple of years, I think Austin has received something like 9000 submissions, which is massive. We our judges, the way we structure things, we would have a hard time handling too much more than we get right now. So we're kind of, we're at a good place. I feel some people say that you have to read about 100 even 200 scripts to find a great one. Well, if we get about 6000 entries and we give 30 prizes, 31 prizes, that's about, right, then I figure

Dave Bullis 35:57
When you get, like, you know, you know, 6000 7000 entries, you know, I could just imagine, you know, that there's a, you know, that just all these screenplays sitting in a room, and it's like, my god, would you even start? You know, so, you know, how is the process? I've always been interested, you know, even with, with the Nicole and the and and the the Austin Film Festival one, and you know, some of these other screenplay competitions, you know that are getting, you know, five four digit high four digits submissions. You know, how do you start to sort through them as they come in?

Kristin Overn 36:32
Well, it's, it's well systematized now. And luckily, because everything's online, there's some things are doable that would not have been doable 1012, years ago. So as the scripts come in, they come in in a certain category, we have certain judges reading certain categories, and they get assigned to them online. And everyone's reading everything online now. So it makes it, makes it relatively easy, but we do have over 90 judges over the course of the five rounds of competition. So it's a lot of people going through it, but it's, it's all, it's all handled through a little online system that that works pretty well, pretty well.

Dave Bullis 37:08
So, so they didn't just just sort of continue with that same question, do you ever get like, so much digital traffic, then in your like and you start to sort of lose track of things, or we, you know, I mean, again, with all the submissions, I mean, I could just imagine, with that, with, again, high four digit submissions, it's like, how do you keep track of everything you know? And I imagine so. So do you have, like, a whole team behind the scenes, sort of like, okay, this is an action adventure, this is a comedy, this is a horror,

Kristin Overn 37:36
Yeah, absolutely. But it's all online too. It's all recorded when the script comes in so that the scripts can be automatically tracked to the right judges. And Zoe and Jennifer are very hands on our team behind the scenes. And Zoe handles all the submissions, and she does a fabulous job, and she's very much on top of it, watching as things come in and making sure that they're tracking to the right judges. And when writers request feedback, she'll be careful to she actually assigns those individually. So she makes sure that it's a script that that particular judge has not read before, it's the type of script that she thinks they'll like based on the log line, you know, that kind of thing. So we're very hands on, but by the same token, we've got it pretty well systematized now so that, so that things keep moving, which it has to do. You know, when you, as you say, when you have 6000 entries, and you have basically from January through October, is the whole process, but the vast majority of them are, are read by the middle of July. It's, it's, it's a lot of scripts to read, and a lot of people reading,

Dave Bullis 38:38
Yeah, and I mean having to get, you know, and all the feedback and stuff like that. I, you know, I've had friends who even started, you know, I mean, their own screenwriting competitions on a on a much smaller scale, obviously. And even then it was like, it was just like, my god, what the hell have we gotten ourselves into?

Kristin Overn 38:57
That's very true, you know. I mean, I think a lot of people think, oh, let's start a screenwriting competition. We'll make some money. It'll be easy. We're looking for a looking for some in some cases, like we're looking for a script. Let's start a contest, you know, but it's actually if you're, if you're honest about it, and if you do it with integrity, it's a lot, a lot of work, and it takes a lot of, you know, kind of caring people behind the scenes, the administrative team and the judges to to make it work well. Otherwise it ends up being pretty much a rip off for the writers. And I've seen and heard a lot of horror stories in that regard. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 39:28
I mean, because I've entered screw any competitions before, and I haven't entered page yet, but I'm actually hoping to get something done in time to enter. But, you know,

Kristin Overn 39:43
I hope we'll live up to your expectations. But yeah, I mean your own experience, I'm sure would be really educational for your listeners, because, you know, what's the range of experience you had with contests?

Dave Bullis 39:54
Well, I think Paige already meets my expectations. Because, like, honestly my expect, because, I mean, I've heard of the competition before, you know, as I was, you know, just just, you know, obviously we were just discussing this whole conversation, you know, I'm familiar with Paige, you know, Austin, the nickel. But in my experience, by the way, the ones I just mentioned, I've not entered before. I entered one, and I got back maybe half a page, or a page of like, of course, by you know, of like, feedback. And that's what I really wanted, was that feedback. So I wanted to hear what the writer was going I mean, I'm sorry the reader was going to say, and basically, at the end, she admitted that this screenplay wasn't for her, and just kind of, you know, let me down easily because she she just didn't know where it fits, so to speak. And I forget what language she used. But, you know, I felt like, Okay, I don't really know if this was worth the extra money to pay for the for the for the feedback. But what I did was, and this is a part of the funny story was, I took this screenplay and I knew a producer, and he said, Hey, you know, if it's a it's a horror comedy, and I sent it to him, and he goes, Dave, this is so over the top. He goes, I don't know how to even market this thing. Bob, you know, etc, etc. Well, a couple months later, I ended up bumping into him again, and he goes, You know what? I should have went with you on that screenplay. He goes, I don't know what the hell I was thinking about. He goes, I've been thinking about that opening. He goes, and the and the funny parts were funny, the horror parts were scary. He goes, but he goes, I just don't know. He goes, I just don't know how to actually market it. And I said, it would be tricky. It would be very tricky, but it could be done. And so I told him that the feedback I got from the screenwriting competition. And he said, Yeah. He said, You know, we talked about what competition it was. And he said, Yeah, they they oftentimes either don't give any any feedback, or they just sort of give, like this very homogenized feedback.

Kristin Overn 42:05
Yeah, yeah. I mean, feedback. What can I say? We work really hard to give our writers great feedback. That's a very important part of our mission, because, you know, it helps writers grow, and that's what our goal is. We'd love to see. We love it when writers enter a few years in a row and they keep doing better and better, and they've got more and more scripts and a stronger body of material, and so that finally, when they do, when they end up getting signed because they have a body of material to show an agent or manager, and things are launched from there, that's actually kind of an ideal scenario. And we love to be a part of that. We love to help to help writers do that. And feedback is a huge part of it. I think getting professional feedback is so helpful for writers when you can get it from someplace that's supportive, that's going to really that's where the goal is, to help you improve as a writer, rather than just trash you or tell you you know why the script doesn't work. So, you know. But there's the whole range out there. It's writers, you know. I think as much as you can get, my bottom line advice would be, get as much as you can and take it all with a big grain of salt, because that's really at the end of the day, when you're working as a professional writer, you're getting notes all the time on everything you do eight sets of rewrites on a script by the time it gets into production, or more. I mean, it's it's crazy, how much and you have to be able to take all these opinions from the producers initially and the financiers and then the director and the actors and somehow incorporate that into your script, and keep the integrity of your script and keep make sure it continues to work, because often the notes you get aren't even if the person offers a solution, often it's not the right solution, but maybe they have their finger on the pulse of something that's problematic, so you have to, as the writer, interpret it, interpret that, and make the note work within your vision of the script. It's very complex, that complicated and hard to do. So the more practice you get at taking notes, even if they're bad notes, and just figuring out, hmm, what was this person really saying? And, you know, is it something I want to do? Is it something that I want to incorporate in the script? Or, you know, and when you start hearing a note from more than one person, really pay attention, because something's not working, you know?

Dave Bullis 44:23
Yeah, I concur. And one of the thing I wanted to say, too was that sometimes, you know, the that note could be that something's not working. And one thing I've noticed, too is also something could be working. Because one, I wrote a screenplay years ago, and I remember I the one positive I got out of it was that everyone there was one note I always got it was like, Oh, this was actually working pretty well. This is a really nice way to open that this movie. And only one person out of everyone I let read it was said, Oh, no, that's too much over dramatic. Don't do it that way. And everybody else disagreed. And I was like, Alright, I think I'm gonna go with that, with the just gonna keep it in.

Kristin Overn 44:59
And that's again, you make my point for me, which is, get as many opinions as you can, and ideally professional opinions, but your friends is fine, as long as they know something about reading a screenplay. If your Writers Group is great, but get as many opinions as you can and get as many professional opinions as you can from wherever, because the more you hear, the more things will start to make sense, and then that one oddball opinion will stand out as like, Oh no, no. That was just that person who had a bad dinner that night or whatever, but or just didn't understand something about this, whatever the situation might be. But if you just get notes from one person, and you take those as gospel, you know you could potentially be be led astray.

Dave Bullis 45:43
Yeah, very true. Kristin, very true. You know, Kristin I know that the page screenwriting awards opens this year, which is December 1 2017 which is in about two weeks, give or take, and probably about a week when this podcast actually is going up. But I just wanted to, you know, ask just while you know, why have you on here? Because I've always heard this about screening competitions. I heard that the the better the chance for to sort of win, or to even just to get noticed, is to get your screenplay in earlier. And the reason, the the reason they say this, is because they say, you know, judges and everybody has to read so many screenplays that they end up, you know, pulling their favorites out first. You know what I mean, like, they'll have that in their meaning, in their mind, though, you know, they have, like, Oh man, I remember reading this script, and if you know, and it really stood out, and then, versus handing it in later, and, you know, you have less of a chance to sort of stand out. You know what I mean, like, we were talking about earlier on, where the with the time? The where the top always goes, the cream always rises at the top. So is there any truth to that in your experience?

Kristin Overn 46:48
No, no. So you know, that's one of the myths. And you know, I do think that the judges have less to read early on, and they're fresher, if you like, in a sense, although most of these people, keep in mind, are reading for their companies all the time. Anyway, it's it. So this is just something they incorporate into their schedule over time, but, but here's, here's the thing. Like for us, we have five different rounds of competition, so your first round judge will read your script pretty much soon after it comes in, right? And then this we also have the second round that starts right about in March, once there's enough build up of stuff moving forward from the first round. So those people start reading in March, and they read through the middle of the summer. But once you get to the third round and fourth round, they're kind of reading things all at the same time, and not necessarily in order that it was submitted. So basically, what we have found, and I've tracked this because people have asked this question a lot, we've had scripts with over the you know, with the 31 prizes we give, usually, one of them will have been submitted on the very first day of the contest, and one or two of them will have been submitted on the last day, and they pretty much are scattered all throughout. So it really that is not it saves you money to enter early. We push you to enter early because we want to get scripts in for the judges to read. We want to give them enough time to read everything. We don't want everything coming in in May, at which point, you know, we wouldn't be able to get everything read in time to make our announcements. So that's why we give, you know, all kinds of incentives to enter as early as possible, but it does not affect your chances of winning.

Dave Bullis 48:33
That's another sort of false myth out there put down. I'm glad, I'm glad I asked that question, because, you know, you see all these false myths online about about screenwriting in general, and I'm just glad that that

Kristin Overn 48:45
I think at least in our experience, that's one of them. I mean, maybe other contests. I can only speak for us, but, but that's, that's the way things run here. And I honestly have seen a lot of the scripts that are submitted in the last couple of rounds of competition win, as well as some that are submitted early on. So it's, it's, it's pretty well spread out throughout

Dave Bullis 49:06
And, you know, Kristen, we've been talking for about, you know, 50 minutes now. And I just wanted to ask, you know, is there anything that we can get a chance to talk about that maybe wanted to discuss right now, or just even anything you want to say to sort of put a period into this whole conversation?

Kristin Overn 49:19
I think the only thing is, you know, people ask me a lot, what does it take to make a winning script? What is it that puts the winners over the top? And it's a very, very hard question to answer, and I've tried to sort of distill it down over the years, but I would say that for us, the scripts that advance up to the semi final and final round. They're all really strong. They're strong writers. They're interesting ideas. They have the scripts have a lot of strengths, but every script has certain what somebody would call a weakness. You know, if one judge read it, they might say, Oh, I love this character to me, you know, so everyone, I mean, opinions differ in that regard. But at the end of the day, what I hear over and over, when we're down to the final final decisions, is people saying this script. The thing that's so special about it is this is a character that I know 10 actors who would love to play this role. It's so compelling, and so story moved me and and it will move an actor. So the script has a real shot of getting made, and it it the voice of the writer is just so clear and so specific and so special that they feel like they bred something that is unique and will stand out from the crowd. So whatever its other flaws might potentially be in terms of that they can work on in development, which, as I said, it'll end up probably going through however many rewrites in the course of development and into production. But that the true thing that's there, that the core of an idea that's really special, a role for an actor, that's really unique and compelling and and something that's really going to make an actor sit up and take notice, and just something in the voice of the writing that is, makes it stand out from the from the crowd, whatever that is,

Dave Bullis 51:36
Yeah, and that's very true too, because whatever gets you to stand up from The crowd. And you've seen examples, you know, all throughout, even in the in the like the 90s, for example, when Shane Black wrote Lethal Weapon Quentin Tarantino, you can really tell when he really enjoys writing his scripts, because they just sort of pop their own style of popping out at you. And then you even some of the screenplay competitions, the award winners, like they just released the screenplay from mud bound, they released a couple of other screenplays that you know, how the you know you could you and you when you read them, you can kind of see how you know they did what they did with their screenplays, how, what, what causes them to be unique.

Kristin Overn 52:15
Absolutely, when Juno came out, that was such a special script and movie, because she had such a strong voice on the same sort of note. But the flip side of it is that, please do not try to copy Quentin Tarantino or David Mamet or somebody else who has a really strong voice. Because really, the judges roll their eyes at that industry readers roll their eyes at that they you know, they've seen a lot of copycat scripts. It's really about finding your own vision, your own voice, your own approach to the world and to your story that is unexpected and fresh. And that's where you hear the phrase familiar but fresh. You know? It's like an idea that perhaps people in the industry can understand and say, oh, yeah, I know we did. We know about movie that some movie like that, but this particular script has such a fresh twist on the idea, and that's the writer's voice, the writer's point of view, that makes it stand out.

Dave Bullis 53:14
Yeah, and that's a really good point, by the way, Kristin about not trying to copy anybody else. I once had a friend of mine who who started before me in the film business, and he started before me, and he he ended up calling himself the next Quentin Tarantino, and he kept labeling himself as that. And finally, I think he bumped into a manager, agent, and they said, Why are you marketing yourself as the next Quentin Tarantino? They were like, do you think Quentin Tarantino went around and said he was the next whatever, like, he just wanted to be Quentin Tarantino. That was it, like, you should be focused on that, not trying to be somebody else. And I think I'm sorry

Kristin Overn 53:50
Absolutely, I'm just agreeing because it's, yeah, it's so important. You have no idea. I mean, I can't tell you how many times, oh, that's another guy, Richie script, you know, or something. They they're just and people do it. So you have no idea how many other writers are trying to copy some of these iconic writers, and it just doesn't. It doesn't work. So find your voice. Find your own voice. Oh, but you know, one good exercise, if writers want to play with it, and this is a fun thing to do, is write a script in the style of just for fun, as you're learning, maybe a short film, even just as you're learning, as you're growing, just to kind of strengthen your chops you know, write a script in the style of Quentin Tarantino or Diablo Cody or whoever you know, just to see how different writers might approach a different subject, a different basic storyline. That's a really fun thing to do, and it teaches you a lot doing something like that.

Dave Bullis 54:44
Yeah, I know what you exactly what you mean, and I've seen, but I do like the idea too, is just to be unique and be yourself. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you have to be yourself, right Kristin?

Kristin Overn 54:57
Absolutely, you know, absolutely, it's. So I think that's a great, a great sort of sign off. It's like, be yourself.

Dave Bullis 55:04
Yeah. I just want to ask in closing, though, is where we will find you, at online?

Kristin Overn 55:09
Pageawards.com is our website.

Dave Bullis 55:12
Kristin, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Kristin Overn 55:15
It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Dave.

Dave Bullis 55:18
Oh, my pleasure Kristin.

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BPS 390: Becoming a Jack of All Trades Writer/Director with Greg Mottola

October 24, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

After earning an MFA in film at Columbia University, he began his career as the writer & director of the independent film The Daytrippers, which would earn him a Golden Camera nomination at the Cannes Film Festival for best first feature film. He then went on to direct the Judd Apatow-produced hit comedy Superbad, and then followed it up with critically praised Adventureland, which he also wrote and received an Independent Spirit Award nomination for Best Screenplay. The film starred an ensemble cast who would go on to become some of today’s most sought-after actors, including Kristen Stewart, Jess Eisenberg, Bill Hader, Ryan Reynolds, and Kristen Wiig.

Other film projects include Paul, starring Simon Pegg and Nick Frost, Clear History, starring Larry David, and Keeping Up With The Joneses, starring Jon Hamm, Zach Galifianakis, and Isla Fisher.

For television, Mottola directed the pilot of FX’s DAVE and is an executive producer on the show. He also directed the pilot of HBO’s The Newsroom, which earned him a DGA Award nomination. His other TV directorial credits include episodes of the The Comeback, Arrested Development, Undeclared, and The Dangerous Book For Boys.

His new film is Confess, Fletch.

In this delightful comedy romp, Jon Hamm stars as the roguishly charming and endlessly troublesome Fletch, who becomes the prime suspect in a murder case while searching for a stolen art collection. The only way to prove his innocence? Find out which of the long list of suspects is the culprit – from the eccentric art dealer and a missing playboy to a crazy neighbor and Fletch’s Italian girlfriend. Crime, in fact, has never been this disorganized.

Starring: Jon Hamm, Roy Wood Jr., Annie Mumolo, Ayden Mayeri, Lorenzo Izzo, Kyle MacLachlan, Marcia Gay Harden, John Slattery

Please enjoy my conversation with Greg Mottola.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
I'd like to welcome to the show Greg Mottola. How you doin Greg?

Greg Mottola 0:22
I'm very good. Nice to meet you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 0:24
A pleasure to meet you as well, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I like I was telling you earlier I've been a big fan of yours for quite some time. Back from the days of day trippers all the way through Superbad and keeping up with the Joneses and Paul, which was a genius, electric lovely, fun, fun film and your new film, confess Fletch, which I had the the pleasure of seeing early and fantastic. And we'll talk all about that. But my very first question to you, sir, why in God's green earth did you want to get into this business? And how did you get into this business?

Greg Mottola 0:56
You know, like, like, all of us grew up loving movies. I had a pretty sheltered childhood on Long Island, you know, middle class, not my parents weren't like foreign film goers. But I would discover things my dad loved older movies. So he pointed me in the direction of things to watch Saturday afternoon, black and white films, on channel 11, and stuff like that. And so I already started to get a love of old films and, and would see everything that came out and had some teachers in high school turned me on to like, you know, one teacher showed us Citizen Kane and, and that kind of blew my mind. And, and then I went to art school, I drew a lot. I, you know, like many kids read comic books I taught, I drew pretty well. And I did a lot of other kind of art stuff in high school. And I thought, you know, this skill, let's see if it'll take me somewhere. I got to art school and realized I don't want to be an artist. This is way too hard. There's no money in it. Fine Art is is I have respect for it. But I don't, I don't, I don't see myself as a great painter. But I was a painting major at Carnegie Mellon University. And at the same time going to every single movie they showed on campus, like the first time I saw Clockwork Orange was on campus at Carnegie Mellon. And, you know, I'd go to once again go to everything, so a lot of foreign films for the first time. So my first Fellini film, my first Bergman film, first Corolla, and and I was like, this is the best possible thing a human being can make as a movie. And I really wanted to do at the end, and I really wanted to learn to be a writer. school didn't have any film classes, they had a video class that was that was a conceptual art class, I once made the mistake of showing my teacher a short film I had made and he gave me a C for the semester, because Because narrative movies were the devil to him. You know, just wanted it all to be non nonlinear art. So I found a space called Pittsburgh filmmakers, which is a little was a little group of basically, documentary filmmakers and experimental filmmakers. And they would teach you how to film a stick of bollocks in your hand and say, Go shoot it, cut it on this little thing that you just your hand rolled the reels, not even a Steenbeck not even a machine. And then you're going to you're going to cut the negative and get it printed in a lab in Pittsburgh. And I made I started making short films, which were not great, but exciting to me, because because, you know, I was seeing how lenses worked. And I was loading cameras, and I was cutting negative and one of my teachers, Tony Booba, great documentary filmmaker, kind of in the style of the Maysles brothers, he he would make these kind of personality movies about funny people, weirdos who lived in his town, which is called Braddock, which was a big steel mill town where that was very economically depressed because the mills were all closing and he would make these sort of social commentary, short documentaries, focusing on on big, big personalities in his area, and they were great. And Tony's brother was George Romero's editor. Tony got me a job working for two weeks in the art department of Day of the Dead. The third Romero zombie film, I was making zombie vomit out of glue, Elmers glue, paint and Rice Krispies and whipping it against a wall with a rag as one does to simulate. And I don't know if you've ever seen Day of the Dead.

Alex Ferrari 4:58
Oh, it's yeah, it's a fantastic film.

Greg Mottola 5:00
It's great. It's great. And so yeah, but we were as I was putting out a vomited, Bubs like little cell. And then I was helping with the r&d of the there's the shock moment where all the zombie hands come through a cinderblock wall. Yeah, I was there when they were trying to figure out how do you score Styrofoam, make it look like cinderblock. Like you know, all the little experiments and so they'd say, Okay, go over there and score 400 pieces of Styrofoam that was you know, because I was unpaid intern.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
So what was that? Let me ask you, though. What was it like working on the set with George Romero? I mean, at that point in your career, he must have essentially been almost godlike to you as a hero.

Greg Mottola 5:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, he. This was probably the year after creep show. Certainly, it seemed on I mean, night, living dead Dawn of the Dead bunch of times. I loved his movie, Martin. I tracked that down and we saw it at a theater. Somehow in Pittsburgh, maybe there was a great rep theatre near my college. I remember seeing doing that. And when it opened, it was very exciting. Even though people kind of trashed it. I was like, I don't know, this is sort of awesome and terrible, same time. And, and so so yeah, I you know, I was too shy to talk to him. I didn't, I wasn't a precocious. And still I'm not a terribly precocious person. So I just watched him and I watched him and Tom Savini talk a lot. And, and was just excited to see how they were going around making decisions. I was my work, my work there, whatever it was, was done before they started shooting. So I just got to see them prepping. It was there shooting in this cave, deep in a cave, we'd have to take golf carts and their bats flying all over the place. It was, I was so happy. To me. It was like I was missing all my classes and getting more C's and I was on a movie set. And you know, and I have a great affection for independent filmmakers. Here's a guy who worked and lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, making movies his whole life. Not exactly. Beverly Hills or, or Universal Studios. And the only other time I was on a movie set, I got a day as an extra and gung ho, the Ron Howard the Ron Howard.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
Yeah, I love that movie back in the day is great.

Greg Mottola 7:25
Yeah, I watched it not that long ago. It holds up really well. It's it's, I thought like it's this I kind of like it is yeah, it's great. And so, so you know, I and then I was making, I was taking the video equipment from a video class and shooting short films and they just wised up and stopped showing them to my teacher. I just made them for my own learning purposes. But the minute I finished film, school, I mean, art school, I I went straight to Columbia University for film school, I thought okay, now I need to, there's a lot of skills they need to learn. Now, during straight to grad school,

Alex Ferrari 8:04
Now so during that time, if I'm not mistaken, you were starting to come up in the 90s where it's, you know, I look at it as the kind of golden age of independent film as we know it. The Sundance movement is many have coined it because from basically from 89 to early 2000s. I mean, Sundance was just popping out. Amazing film after amazing filmmaker after amazing filmmaker, as a filmmaker, what did that impact that because I know daytrippers came out in 96. So you were kind of like in the middle of that Renaissance, you know, but you know, Robert had already come out. I think you came out at around the same time as Ed Burns did with Brothers McMullen. Yeah, that around that time as well. So this was just like, I anytime I haven't any, any of you guys on the show that we came up in the 90s. I always say it didn't feel like that every month. There was a new Kevin Smith's story, or Robert Rodriguez story or Spike Lee's story or Rick Linkletter story isn't wasn't at a crazy time for filmmakers.

Greg Mottola 9:01
Yeah, it was kind of amazing. I mean, I graduated from film school I had no I had no real connections to the business. I wrote a script. I thought it was pretty good. Campbell Scott read it. I had a mutual friend and he wanted to do it, but we couldn't raise the money. It was a little too expensive as a first movie. So I sat down and wrote daytrippers in about a month because I just wrote it thinking okay, I could set a scene in an apartment and get someone's apartment for free. I can set the scene on the streets and get permits and like anything that could be free. We shot on my parents house, we shot you know, everything was a favor. And during that time, I'd also met Steven Soderbergh. I met Steven right before sex lives came out. I made a student film that was kind of making like the student film rounds. Someone showed it to Steven. We met I went on one of my first trips to LA I went to meet Steve and he was prepping or starting, I think to prep Kafka. But sex lives had been like a Sundance. This phenomenon and there was a big article about him in Rolling Stone but it hadn't opened yet. And so, you know, we got along really great and Steven and I stayed friends and a couple years later when I wrote daytrippers, I showed it to him and he said, let me help you make this he put in some money he got some friends to put in some money, you know, we shot it, we got it in the can for like $60,000 but it you know, Steven called in favors he got Kodak to give us a huge discount on film stock and, and and, you know, I the same time was meeting people like HAL Hartley, one of my best friends from Colombia, she was dating Rick Linklater, I was hanging out with him. So I was meeting all these people I met. I met no Abom back. Yeah, it was it was, it was a great time. I mean, they're like, people were just saying, fuck it, we're gonna go around the system and make our ship for very little money. And yeah, well, like when daytrippers came out. It played in our houses, there were a handful of prints that would travel around the country, and it took, you know, months for it to get to every city. But to me, that was a dream come true, because it got to every little art house theater in America. And we were able to sell at some other countries and pay back everyone who worked on it. And it's my first paycheck ever as a filmmaker. And yeah, it really felt like a time like I remember, you know, going to a bar with some of those people and like, no, or how and just like, complaining about Hollywood and saying fuck those people, and they're slick movies and, and they don't have any soul. And we can pretend to be rebels and yeah, artists, they don't get it. And you know, and Soderbergh and I have stayed friends this whole time. In fact, I just worked on he did a bunch of short, humorous black comedy shorts that I was like quasi producer, you know, essentially just a friend helping out on that were shot like you would shoot a student film, even Steven, you know, has wounds. He's, he's, he can do every job. And he was shooting these on iPhones and, and he certainly didn't need my help. It was really fun to be there and watch him work and, and I helped, you know, bring some actors into it. I like got Michael Cera to be in it. And Liev Schreiber and you know, it felt very, very full circle. That, you know, we're still here and we're still there. We're still doing it. But the 90s were, it was it was it was it was a unique, Kathy, I kind of feel like I knew everyone because there's so many of them were in New York, Mary Heron was a friend, Nicole Harlow center I went to film school with she and I are still friends. It was it was cool. It was I mean, it's, you know, because of technology. It's become easier to make movies on a low budget and have them look good. Look professional because of digital technology in both shooting and post production. But and there's a lot of great stuff. And you know, it was very heartwarming to me to hear from sort of the next generation of indie filmmakers the what were they called? The mobile mumblecore Yeah, they do philosophy. Yeah, like Mark Duplass told me so like daytrippers was a was a big inspiration to him, because he's like, Oh, you can make a film for nothing. And it's okay, if it looks like it was made for nothing. I think that's a compliment. But it was true. It was absolutely true. And, you know, I

I, at that point had absorbed many different genres of film and whether it's low budget American films from the Corman years or in like films from Europe that were made on a shoestring and and I still believe and I still, I still feel half indie and everything I do. Maybe that's because I have a really hard time getting enough of a budget for anything, but I've been very lucky. I've been very, very lucky. I I've no complaints.

Alex Ferrari 14:31
No, it's really interesting. When you brought up Steven because I knew that Stephen worked on day trippers, and he's been quietly behind the scenes, helping filmmakers make their movies open doors. It wasn't at him that help Nolan get on inside. Yeah, without without without Soderbergh like going. I always call it the Donnie Brasco effect. He's a good fellow and he's alright. And it's kind of someone shouting about you. And he, he does that a lot. Very quiet. Yeah. Spielberg does it too and he does it as Well, I've heard so many filmmakers and screenwriters who've come on the show who just like, yes, even opened this door for me. And so it's really fascinating to see these kind of guys do that.

Greg Mottola 15:10
He's very, it's very unselfish. And it's, it's, I mean, it's totally authentic. He just, he, if he thinks, you know, your hearts in the right place, and you could do something interesting, he wants to help you, and He will, and now he's the greatest guy. I also had an interesting, this is a daytripper story, which, which is sort of another corner of the filmmaking business, which is that two days before we're gonna start shooting the film, I got a call in my shitty little tenement apartment on Thompson street. So from James L. Brooks, who I'd never met, and don't have, we had my number. It turns out, I had given us a copy of my script to a friend who had a friend at the New Yorker who was good friends with James L. Brooks. And James likes to you know, he likes he told his friend at The New Yorker, have you ever read a script you think is interesting, you hear about a young filmmaker, I want to, you know, I want to know who's out there. I want to try and help people. So somehow, my script for daytrippers got into got onto James Brooks, his desk and, and, and months had passed. And unbeknownst to him, I was about to make it on a shoestring. And he called me up and said, I really love the script. What's going on with it? I'd like to help you make it and I said, Well, we're shooting in two days. And he said, what's the budget? And I say, Well, we have $60,000 It was like a long silence who's like, No, I said, What's the budget?

Alex Ferrari 16:40
Craft services for the first week.

Greg Mottola 16:42
Yeah, exactly. And so and so I told him how we were making in who was in and he said, Well, you know, obviously, I don't want to stop you. If I were to get involved, I do have some notes. And I would do it on a different scale and and it would be a different kind of cast and I don't want to screw you up, just know that I like this enough that I would help you make it if you wanted to make it a bigger budget. And, and I was credibly flattered. I think that guy is great. And, and I slept on it the next day I called the bank. So I just, you know, I feel like I have to follow through. You know, all these people are ready to go. And as tempting as it is, I'm gonna go ahead and make it and and being a huge man. She said, Well, you know, $60,000 is a little ridiculous. I'm just gonna send you a check for $10,000 Just make me a silent partner, whatever other investors are getting, give me you know, the same proportionate amount. And the day we started shooting, I got a DHL package that had a check for $10,000 from James L. Brooks. I mean, not knowing me whatsoever. Just never done anything before except for a student film. Just based on the script, that guy sent me your 10,000 bucks. Which, which, when, when you're working on $60,000, that's huge. That's a huge addition to your budget. And yeah, it was 95, the end of 94 when we were starting shooting, and you know, that's, that was a big deal. And I'm forever grateful. And I've, you know, since hung out with him a bit, and we tried to make a movie together. It didn't all come together. But you know, I will, I will always love that man. And, you know, it's like people say to me, young people say how do you get started? And I say, get really lucky, and hope that people like Steve. James Brooks, take pity on you. I don't know what to tell you. I got super fucking lucky.

Alex Ferrari 18:46
It's my favorite. I asked that question all the time on the show. And I heard Quinton once, say, at a panel somewhere, I think at ComiCon. I heard him years ago, years ago for like 15 years ago. And some kids like how do you make it into the film business? He's like, right, Reservoir Dogs. He goes, I don't know any other way to break into the business. Right? Reservoir Dogs, direct Reservoir Dogs. That's how I did it.

Greg Mottola 19:13
Yeah, I mean, you know, daytrippers got my foot in the door. And almost, I almost got a second film made that was set up at Sony. That was real labor of love. And unfortunately, even we were in greenlit, we were in pre production, and the studio got cold feet and thought it was a little too indie a little too depressing. And I was like, yeah, it's depressing. That's what I did. They put it in turnaround, so that one didn't get made. And then eventually, I said, Well, let's go to LA and direct a lot of TV and then once again, I was super lucky. But yeah, I mean, what I tell the one thing I try to tell other, like when I go to Columbia film or something and speak with students there is there are different ways to skin a cat. The way I chose was get a real The great cast of actors who are working professional actors who are taking, we're taking, you know, shity shity, sag special low budget salary. And don't use that much of their time, shoot it as fast as possible. That was that was how I did it. I shot daytrippers in about 15 days, and, and was thus able to get people like Stanley Tucci and Campbell Scott and Parker Posey, and, and, and Mira, and, and, you know, I couldn't ask them to do that for, you know, meet me every weekend for the next seven months, and we'll make this film. But you can't ask your friends to meet you every weekend for the next seven months. And if you've got some really charismatic, interesting people, you know, who are patient, and who will say, okay, when you call me and say the lights really good. Let's go shoot the scene. Now it's gonna look really pretty. Or, you know, I got this location for the next two hours, come meet me. You know, that is a way to do it. I mean, you can take a really long time to make a movie, if that allows you to get all the coverage you want. You just have to have people in the movie who love you enough to put up with your bullshit.

Alex Ferrari 21:14
Which, which, yeah, I mean, look, it's an insanity. What we do is a general statement, and the independent filmmaker as a creature is one of the most insane of the bunch, without question because, I mean, unlike you, at this point in your career, you have success in your career, you've built a career for yourself. And when you're starting a project, there's, you know, there's risk and things like that. But when you're starting out, you're doing the work without ever knowing if it's gonna pay off, and so many filmmakers in today's world, because there's so many. I mean, when you were coming up in the 90s, it costs still cost money to make a movie, even $60,000. If there still needed to be a technical amount of knowledge to make it look presentable, you shooting film, you needed a real DP. Now everybody in their mother can make a feature film look good. But now who can know how you're going to get seen?

Greg Mottola 22:06
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's, you know, as we all know, there, it's hard to get on a screen and in great indie films do get on screens. Even more, so we can get to this later then sort of mid tier entertainments, like confess flash, actually, I have a very hard time getting on screen, because because Hollywood puts most of those kinds of movies straight to streaming. But even for an indie film to get on streaming, you know, it's, it's you have to you kind of have to hit that home run and make something like Coda or, or everything everywhere, all at once, something that's going to, that's really going to land with an audience, but someone will get behind it in some way. And there are there are, thank God still art house theaters, places that will show that are dedicated to showing new new foreign films and new American Indies. But yeah, because a lot of people can make a film. There are a lot of films.

Alex Ferrari 23:19
It's a gluttony in the marketplace. Without question, there's just so many. I mean, I think Sundance got 40 or 50,080 1000s of submissions last year or something. Oh, my God, like something insane. And there's like 125 films, including shorts, picked. So like the, the level of you even, you know, that wasn't the case when you guys were in the 90s. There were there were still a lot, but it wasn't the competition wasn't as fierce. And I always I always love asking this question of, you know, guys, and filmmakers of that time, because like, Do you like it? When I had burns on the show? I go, Ed, do you think brothers with Mala would make it today? And he's like, Absolutely not. would have would have been lost in I had no stars in and nobody you know, so I'll ask you the same question. Do you think day trippers if it showed up today, I mean, with this cast, obviously, because now there are big stars but generally speaking, what do you think the chances of it actually finding an audience's today?

Greg Mottola 24:15
Hey, look, we got rejected from Sundance back then. So we wouldn't even Yeah, that was I took some pride in that. That was the year they rejected us and swingers so it's like, okay, well, you're in good company rejected by another with another good movie. Yeah, no, I think absolutely not. It would be it you know, it was so modest. The, you know, it's comedic. Comedy is less serious.

Alex Ferrari 24:44
It's not real filmmaking. Comedy. Yeah. Right.

Greg Mottola 24:47
Yeah. Even though like in the history of American film, if you if you went through the list of what people actually remember so many of them are comedies, or silent movies. You remember, like 90% of them are comedies?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Because it was easy to translate back then. Yeah, Chaplin, and Keaton and all those guys. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 25:08
But still not to get on the comedy versus drama. Thanks to them both. It's yeah, I think it would be I don't, I have no idea how I could one could break through. I mean, I mean, there's a lot of movies with political conscience consciousness that, I think is great. But I'm sure now there's tons of them too. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be really hard for people coming up to figure out how to get their foot in the door. I, you know, I was very stubborn at the beginning, I thought I was just going to write and direct my own stuff. I'm going to be an auteur. And then, and then I started after my second film didn't get made, I started to try and write a third one and had writer's block. And I've ever, you know, slight propensity towards depression and writing became basically napping. And I was in New York, and running out of money quickly and thinking shit, I'm gonna have to go back to the job I hated that paid my way through film school. And then I got a call from Judd Apatow, who said, Do you want to come to LA and do undeclared? And I think before I hung up the phone, I was in his office. He's like, I didn't, I didn't offer you the job yet. I just saw

Alex Ferrari 26:32
Like a smoke outline of you was in the front like a cartoon. Like yeah, exactly. So you saw it. So is that how you got involved in Superbad?

Greg Mottola 26:42
Yes, I went doing undeclared. Which was a weird process only in that it was only in one season, but it was done in three different groupings. Because they'd say, okay, you can we'll let you do seven. And then they start to air and it's like, okay, people seem to like it enough. We'll let you do a couple more. And then they let's do a couple more, and then they canceled it. So I was back and forth. But I did like five or six of those. So I was around Judd, and you know, it was a great writing staff. It was Rodney Rothman, Nick Stoller, Jenny Connor, all these people. Jake Kasdan was one of the directors, I became friends with all these people. It was like a really fun group. And of course, Rogen and and so, one day toward the end of the final batch of undeclared. I was told there's gonna be a reading of Seth's script that he wrote with his buddy Evan, of Superbad that they were trying to get made with Seth and Jason steagle is the needs. And it was pretty much the funniest script I've ever heard. And it had a great authenticity to it. Because, you know, Seth and Evan Goldberg were writing about their lives. They started a version of this when they were kids. They wrote The only joke that survived the kid version was the name Nick lovin, which only I think a 13 year old could think of. I mean, nothing, you could never top it. And so So and but it was amazing. And it at the end of it just said, Would you consider directing it if we can get it set up? And I was like, Fuck, yeah. I you know, even even I was still a bit of a recovering snob, and I thought, well, teen movies. I was like, Fuck, yeah. What am I an idiot?

Alex Ferrari 28:33
I mean, Orson Welles never did a teen movie, how?

Greg Mottola 28:38
Exactly. I remembered, you know, Bergman, and Fellini did teen movie, so that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 28:46
You know what's interesting? When I was moving to LA from Florida, I was 2007 2008. And I remember the marketing blitz for that movie, which was arguably at the time one of the most brilliant marketing pushes for a small film. It wasn't a massive tentpole stretch. It became a tentpole film afterwards, but it was just I mean, I was I was I was taking meetings, I was doing the water bottle tour on some of my projects around town. And we were like, people were like, Yeah, we need something like super bad before it even came out before it even came out. They were like, Yeah, we need something like a super bad thing. Like that's lightning in a bottle. I was like, What the hell is like when it's super bad. I saw the trailer like that looks freaking hilarious. And then it came out and it exploded. I mean, in a massive way even culturally in the zeitgeist MC Levin is still MC Levin like I know

Greg Mottola 29:41
I still see kids with the McClellan ID T shirt.

Alex Ferrari 29:46
It's it's, it's it was insane. So I have to ask you, like you were the kind of thrust into you know, being the belle of the ball in Hollywood for a moment. There's always that moment that if you're lucky, you have a big hit, and then everybody wants to work with you. What was that kind of hurricane? That MC lovin super bad hurricane like being in the center of it?

Greg Mottola 30:06
Well, you know, I, the first time we screened it, we did a test screening. And it went incredibly well. And I was sitting with Bill Hader and build nudged me and sort of look at the girls behind us. And they were like holding each other and crying at the end of the film. I was like, Wait, I didn't expect that. But, but I didn't like when I first heard it, I thought the way in to this movie is that is the ending, which is that hovering behind everything is the fact that they're gonna get separated soon. And that's going to be the first big test of them. The first big loss in their lives like this, this is the scariest thing that's ever happened to them is losing this, this best friend who helps you go through adolescence not knowing anything really about women and how to get how to score. Talk to a girl. And the fact that they're both really scared that underneath it all they're really scared that like even though Jonah Hill's character says the most horrible things, Jonah intuitively got it, he's the only actor who came in and play that character, as you could tell under the bluster was terror. And that made it acceptable that he said such terrible things because he's, he's not toxic masculinity. He's living in a world of toxic masculinity. And he's trying to survive it. And he's trying to, he's trying it on because that's what he thinks you're supposed to do. And what he learns over the course of the movie is that's not him. And that's not how it works. If you want any if we want a woman to respect you, and get to actually know her, and then that's okay, that's what everything's leading up to. So we have to just keep that simmering underneath the movie. So anyway, I thought, you know, that'll give it a humanity. That'll make it feel real. Plus, we get this great luck of that nobody was making our rated teen movies anymore. Right? Yeah, it was, like PG 13. Kind of glossy, you know, fine movies, but they they they didn't have that. That chaotic, irreverent, but it was really on your nose and adults thing.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Yeah, it was it was the it was, I think that was the overcorrection of the 80s of the revenge of the nerds and the poor keys. And, you know, and all of those kinds of, you know, classic teen movies that were all hard ours, I mean, hard, hard hours in the 80s. But then it was they overcorrected. And then like, hey, it's been a while. And then America American Pie was probably one of the I think it wasn't that that wasn't 90s. Wasn't that the American Pie? Yeah. Yeah. But had been a while since American Pie when Superbad showed up. Yeah, exactly.

Greg Mottola 32:52
And in fact, when I went to that reading, it took three years for Judd to get the film greenlit. I mean, everyone was saying, we don't want to do an R rated comedy. Yeah, the script is good, but R rated comedies. Like why would we make a movie with the people with the audience? It's for can't come see it? And it's like, of course, they're gonna come see it, they're gonna find a way into the theater. I mean, I wasn't 17 When I saw Animal House, but I thought so so anyway, so the film, you know, we knew that people liked it. We showed it at Comic Con, which was like a rock concert, vibe. It was amazing. And so it's like, I can't believe like how well, but still, no one knows these actors really, will this translate in a bigger way, but Sony was selling the hell out of it, they were doing a great job. And the first day when I got a call, saying, we these are the projected numbers for the weekend, and it was like late August, mid, late August, and it was a time when like, it was like a dumping ground for moving. There's not considered a time you're going to open a movie that's going to open it millions of dollars, whatever, whatever was considered good back in that year, I forget. But anyway, we opened at a number that was considered very good. That times, especially for an August movie, and and it was so bizarre. I mean, I'd go on the street, and I'd hear people talking about it. I hear people talking about on the subway. And and it was, it was crazy. I mean, it was it. I you know, I have to be honest, it was super fun to be attached to something like that. And I loved everyone involved. I loved, you know, all the people who made it with me. And it was great to share that with this group of people that I had such affection for some of whom I know, you know, Judd and Sapphira, already known for quite a while, and I'd work with Michael Cera on Arrested Development. And yeah, it was a thrill. I have to say it's a thrill. At the time, I thought I may never experienced this thrill again and that All, that's remains true. But that's fine. That's fine.

Alex Ferrari 35:06
It was literally lightning in a bottle. I mean, look, I mean, those are skis hit the matrix, you know, you know, they'd never really hit the matrix again. You know, it's like, it's okay. You know, and you still, you still have a fantastic career. But you're right. There are those moments in time that you're, I've, again, when I've spoken to some other directors have had these kinds of kind of just rocket launchers. A lot of them said, Man, I wish I would have enjoyed it more. I didn't know that this was not this, this situation was really Right Place Right Time. Right, right film. And it will never be like this again, even if it may be I have another hit later on. It's never going to be the first one. It's never going to be this again.

Greg Mottola 35:51
I think I think I had some sense of telling myself you better appreciate this. I mean, this may may be the stupidest person alive. But shortly after Superbad came out, Judd asked me if I wanted to possibly direct bridesmaids, and I was trying to get Adventure Land set up. And because I am an indie at heart, I decided to pursue Adventure Land and pursue one of the other most loved successful comedies of all time.

Alex Ferrari 36:26
I've never heard of that, sir what movies that I've never heard.

Greg Mottola 36:29
And and, you know, on paper, everything about bridesmaid sounded fantastic and and, and I loved Kristen Wiig, and I ended up begging her to be an Adventure Land and you know, so I I may be frittered away a chance to build on a kind of more mainstream success. But I am I am a half indie guy. I really am. I mean, I don't Yeah, I don't regret making Adventure Land, you know, wasn't big box office movie, but I have to say like, it's for certain people. Like, I have more people come up to me and talk to me about that movie than Superbad, possibly because they think Judd Apatow Patrick Superbad. Now. Although I do remember one review of adventure that was really cruel, it said, Well, this proves that it was Judd Apatow was hand that needs Superbad as fun oh, oh, dude, it's a different movie.

Alex Ferrari 37:27
A movie? Oh, come on. And you still remember it? And you still remember it?

Greg Mottola 37:33
Oh, yeah. I don't remember any of the good reviews.

Alex Ferrari 37:35
I was gonna say there must have been 10s of 1000s of good reviews.

Greg Mottola 37:39
Very well reviewed. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 37:40
There's the one that you like, son of a bitch. That dude.

Greg Mottola 37:44
The thing of thing about indie filmmaking and making something personal that you know, some people are, it's just not going to be for them is that it's that feeling of like seeing a movie and saying, I know this is for me. And it's not for everyone, but it is really speaks to me. Right? And that's, you know, that's another kind of very satisfying thing to pursue. There are certain Fellini films that I love, and I know like, a lot of people are gonna get bored and a Fellini movie, but a movie like nights of Cabiria moves me in a way that I will never get from a certain kind of mainstream movie. It's just, it's a different experience. And I want to, I always want to try to be able to do both. And I thought, that'd be cool to get to do both. So So you know, yeah. So I, I've gone back and forth. Now, of course, I'm one of those people out there clamoring to get an indie filmmaker. So I wrote a script that I've been working on for years in between projects that I love, and I feel it's the best thing I've ever written. I've only shown it to a few possible financiers. And the basic line is like, well, this is more drama than comedy. And unless you come back with some really huge stars, I don't I don't see you getting as financed.

Alex Ferrari 38:56
You know it I want and I want to just hold on that for a second because so many people listening to this show think that, Oh, it's great Matala. You know, he's had he made these big hits, and he's had a great career and he's worked so much. He can get anything done. The more I talk to people on the show, the more I understood long time ago, that it doesn't matter who you are. Even Spielberg couldn't get Lincoln financed. Yeah, I mean, it's a struggle all the time. Almost all

Greg Mottola 39:29
Yeah, I mean, I'm basically like, I do want to do another indie soonish. And I'm thinking if I can't do this one the way I see it, because I don't want to do it the wrong way. It's a movie that does require it would be like an eight to $12 million film. I don't see a version of it. That's $3 million. But I could write something that I could do for $3 million dollars. I mean, the call Hall of center, wonderful filmmaker, wonderful writer and she designs her movies that that could be made for a number that that's that works in the marketplace and people's minds and she That's very true that way. And she keeps making really great movies. And so maybe I need to think about that, as I'm trying to attach the right cast to the one that's a little more expensive, and see if somebody, you know, find the right or the right or maybe the right moment in my career where I can cash in, uh, you know, it helped me get eventually made because Superbad was about to come out. And there's enough buzz about it, that I eventually got set up before Superbad even came out. But it was, you know, I got a lot of passes. And and a lot of people telling me, yeah, well, we'd like the funny side characters, but who, you know, the central story is just kind of like a love story.

Alex Ferrari 40:42
How, this is another thing that so many filmmakers and screenwriters have to deal with on a daily basis. And I think people in general in the creative industry, is, how do you deal with the nose? Because this business is all about knows and no, and the doors closing on you? All the time? So especially when you're coming up? How do you keep going, what is that thing that keeps driving you to keep going, when everyone's just telling you no kid, you're not, it's not going to happen.

Greg Mottola 41:08
You just die inside, and then you're fine.

Alex Ferrari 41:12
I yours years.

Greg Mottola 41:17
You know, it's still it's still a struggle to this day, but you just take the attitude of, it's a real waste of time, too, to lick your wounds for too long, I feel sorry for yourself. And I made that mistake, when my second film almost got made, and didn't I spent years trying to set it up elsewhere. And, and it I couldn't, and it was just it was, you know, the writing was kind of on the wall that it wasn't the right time to try and get that movie made. Ironically, people have come to me and tried to make that script, but there is a legal problem with someone who I was in business with at the time that I've never been able to solve. And that person has never let me free. So ironically, I could have made that movie, but I can't. But you know, that attitude of like, put it in a drawer, maybe the day will come is actually not impossible. And, and just, you know, fuck it. If I'm doing a pass on this grip, because it's a New York City story, I was going to go out with it a little bit wider to try and finance it, then the pandemic hit New York City changed a lot. And I thought, it's not going to seem viable to people. The way New York City is now during the pandemic now that New York City's pandemic is never going to end it appears but it's more itself. I'm doing a rewrite kind of address New York City at this very moment. It's a real sort of, you know, Hannah and Her Sisters multi character in this case, it's three stories that are being told simultaneously that are all connected. But it's kind of like three main characters and you're following them and an inter cuts between their stories. And it's ambitious, and it's it's, it's, uh, you know, I'll, I'll do my Polish, I'll send it around. I'll try and attach a few more actors. And if and if it seems like it's not the right time, I'll put it down and do something else. I won't. I won't waste time in this

Alex Ferrari 43:25
Seems like a film that would have been financed easily in the 90s. Because those are the kinds of movies that were being made and

Greg Mottola 43:30
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. God dammit.

Alex Ferrari 43:35
It was a big super battle chi teen damn comedy. So I always always like to ask this about of directors because we all you know, when we're on set, there's a day that the entire world's coming crashing down around us. You've lost your camera, you lost your actor, you lost your location, the sun's going down. You can't make your day. What was that moment for you on any of your projects, including the new one, we're going to talk about to talk about fledge that you felt that the entire thing was coming crashing down around you, and how did you overcome it? And yes, I know every day is like that, but there's that one day that is just like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it.

Greg Mottola 44:15
Well, for me, luckily, it was the very first day of my very first movie, we loaded out all of our equipment in our production office on daytrippers in New York City. Took our super 16 camera we at one and our small package of lights in a truck to a location on Long Island where we're going to shoot the first set of scenes with hope Davison Stanley Tucci, and I get to the location, we start to rehearse and my ad who's one of my good friends from film schools named Brian Lindstrom. He's talking sort of nervously or worry has a word expression on his face and I'm I'm sensing this behind me and I'm thinking what the hell could be happening. And he's like, just just keep rehearsing, doing a deal. And so finally, we work out the first scene, now we're ready to set up the camera, he said, If here's the camera has been stolen, and we trace it back to the loading of the truck in New York the day before, it somehow got taken off the sidewalk or something, and nobody noticed. And that's, you know, low budget film, and a lot of people working on the film, were first timers. And, and, you know, mistakes happen. So, you know, we don't have the budget to really absorb this problem. To come back and pay for locate this is one of the few locations we're paying for. And we had all these things locked down for the next few days, which, you know, going to lose actors, because they had lives and careers. So they scrambled and found another camera in Manhattan by the time they got it to set we had about two hours. And I shot, like three scenes and two hours

Alex Ferrari 46:16
I'm assuming and a lot of oners,

Greg Mottola 46:18
A lot of oners or a lot of one one takes and and you know, like various you know, man, what's the you make plans and God laughs at them. Like a lot of my my shot was went out the window and and you know, we shot in and we got something and it works. Okay. And we put it in the movie. You know, I remember the next day we're shooting in my parents house on Long Island in this town called Dix hills. And a bunch of us slept on the floor of my parent's den. Because we didn't have hotel rooms. And people didn't feel like doing the drive back and forth all crashed and sleeping bags on the floor. And I remember waking up surrounded by other crew members, thinking this is it. I'm done. I'll never you know that whatever we got yesterday had to be terrible. I can't do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I've never been to film before. This, I just felt a complete crisis. And then people started to show up, we started to set up and I'm like, I'm is there Can I run? I know the neighborhood. Well, I grew up here. I know. I know hiding spots. And you know, and then yeah, then I add mirror looking and be like, Well, where do you want me to stand where you want me to do and I'm like, Buck and mirror will kill me if I try to run she's going to Tufts. So I was like, Okay, I have to pretend I know what I'm doing. And I don't I'm not freaking out. And and luckily because I'm I'm an introvert and pretty poker faced I could I most of my anxiety goes straight to ulcers so I I think my way through it, and and then watching them act started to get exciting. And the actors would have suggestions that were making the scene better and started to get more and more exciting. And, and I started you know, Okay, should I freak out and say like, my parents are here do they realize I have hired two actors to play them? That's, that's a little weird. But my mom made a big tray of baked ziti for us to eat. And obviously, and and I started to really enjoy it and I realized I like being on set it's terrifying. And it's you feel so alive and I love actors. And I am so grateful to anyone on the crew that they're willing to help me make something I got over it pretty quickly. I'm always I always get a little anxious right at the end of prep before shooting. It creeps back in this feeling of oh fuck What if I fuck this up? Or there's so much to think about there's so many variables can you control them so I'm gonna steal my goddamn camera again.

Alex Ferrari 49:07
You still wake up in a cold sweat over that even on the

Greg Mottola 49:10
I'm still trying to crack that case? I'm still investigating in my spare time. Who the hell in that camera call and the cold case?

Alex Ferrari 49:18
And that cameras worth what 15 $15 Now $20

Greg Mottola 49:21
Exactly. The bastard only got that on eBay.

Alex Ferrari 49:26
Listen, I tell you what I mean I have to had a full blown panic attack on my first shoot day. Like I had a full blown panic attack. Like I had to you should. I literally was the biggest thing was shooting an action sequence for the short film I was doing. And I go guys, can you give me five I gotta go to the restroom. I went to the bathroom and I literally had a full blown panic attack for 1015 minutes, had to like meditate. And I didn't even meditate at the time. I was just like, I just need to calm myself like water on the face and then just like okay, there's like 20 people out there and we've got an action sequence to shoot and I just No He went out and did it. But it's it's something that they don't teach you in film school. They don't talk about this in film school. But this is the reality of what it's like being a director on set at any level, whether it's on a $200 million movie or a $60,000 movie like daytrippers, like you know, shit happens to your camera getting stolen on day one is a pretty rough.

Greg Mottola 50:18
Yeah, and that's

Alex Ferrari 50:22
But, but I'm flush you didn't have that problem. No one stole a camera, Fletch?

Greg Mottola 50:25
No one stolen camera we yeah, we've managed to hold on to all of our equipment.

Alex Ferrari 50:32
Tell me, tell me about so let's go into this new film, confess flach which is, you know, for a for a certain demographic of my audience who is has a little gray in their beard like I do. will remember the original Fletch, which is a legendary movie series by the the great Chevy Chase. And when I was when I was pitched this for you to come on the show was like, Oh, they made a movie called Fletch. Did they know that there was like I couldn't. Because it was like it was Jon Hamm starring in it. And I was like, and I was watching that. I was watching Jerry Taylor. I was like, man, and then I saw the logo. I was like, Oh, it is flat. Okay, they're remaking it. Okay, fine. Okay, because it was just so different because it didn't feel like the original. It didn't have the kookiness of the original. It's a completely different approach to it, which is wonderful. And I did get to see and I loved it. So tell me how you got involved with Fletch and how you approached dealing with a movie that for a certain generation has a shadow over which is chevy chase this kind of shadow over it.

Greg Mottola 51:32
In fact that the second movie I was going to direct the got set up at Sony was gonna start with John CUSEC. Steve's on and Chevy Chase, and I met with Chevy a bunch of times, and he did table read. And I was so excited. I was I've always been a huge fan and I grew up you know, watching SNL from the first season, I was Braden, eight or nine years old. And, and that was when it fell apart. One of the things I was most sad about is not getting a chance to work with Chevy. So cut too many years later, Jon Hamm, who I'd worked with twice before, and has a friend now. We were hanging out, he said, What did you think of doing a Flash movie, Miramax owns all the books except the first one. And then he told me when he saw the first movie, he loved it and then discovered there were books and read them and saw that the books have a slightly different tone in the movie that Chevy brought his own style of comedy and really influenced the Flash movie. And that there was another way to go with it. And he loved it. He claims he was so broke. As a teenager, he stole the books from Rome, a Walden books store, the various fudge books that are published and thanks. So I think they're probably not I think they're out of business. So they're not going to come after him. We should be okay. Okay. So so I had always heard the books are great. And I love detective stories, but I'd never gotten around to them. So I went off. And I love the first movie, for sure. And really enjoyed the second one. So I went off and read a bunch of them. The one John was thinking would make the most sense, was confessed flach. That book starts with him already having retired from being an investigative reporter, but he can't keep out of the business of investigating mysteries. And it gets sucked into not one, but two. And I thought it was fantastic. And I also saw where you could go a different way with it. And I felt as much as I love Chevy. I felt like I'd seen a lot of sort of 80s Reboot nostalgia fest movies that some are great, some are less great. And I just thought that doesn't interest me as much as a filmmaker. It's you know, I did the movie, Paul, which has an enormous amount of paying homage to Spielberg and Lucas and 80s science fiction, fantasy movies, and I love doing it. And that was really fun. That was baked into it. And that was, to me, that made sense. But in this case, I thought, you know, there's a new generation, I think that might not know this character, and they're between TV and movies, there have been 15, Philip Marlowe's, the famous Raymond Chandler detective character was played by Humphrey Bogart and Elliott Gould, and James Garner, and a whole lot of people. And I thought, you know, people have tried to revive it, and I can understand why it's been hard and it's in the shadow of Chevy's performance, which is unique. He's a unique, brilliant comic of our time. I thought the only way to go really is to go a different way because trying to impersonate Chevy, I thought would be a disaster and John didn't want to do that either. So um,

Before I was involved, this ReadySet borrow was working on an adaptation and and I'd read some of his outlines and we consulted he was letting me read pages and My gut feeling was like this is very funny. It's really funny stuff. It feels a little too much like a Chevy version. But I wanted to let ZEV finish his script. And he turned it in and John first words were like this is a great movie for chevy chase but not for me. And so I said let me take a crack at it and I went back to the book Zedd hadn't used as much of the book as I ended up using I went took more characters from the book, we're translating it from 70s to 2020s. So I had to kind of find 2020 is equivalent to some of these characters. But I really I took more stuff from the book I underlined lines I really liked from the book and put them in the script and and thought this is a comedy of manners this is this is you know, this character flechas has a lot of bait in his DNA is baked in a lot of similarities to what Chevy does. But in the books he doesn't have disguises and funny names and isn't quite doesn't quite. And one things I love about the Chevy movies is he just comes into a room and just confuses everybody with this deadpan acting absurd like almost like the Marx Brothers just complete a completely absurd no one knows what's going on. Right? And in that movie, everyone's kind of a straight man to Chevy and I thought, well, there's funny interesting characters. Maybe if we cast this right, we can let them be funny too, and not just be reacting to John. Let him interact and something I felt in this series of flesh books is Fletcher's a character likes weirdos and loners and outsiders, people who are authentic and he hates phonies. So he any any talks with people will lie to anyone anytime, but he has sort of a good heart he does. He does wrong things to make the world a little more, right. He doesn't believe in the cops and the justice system getting there. He does it his own way. And I thought well, that's great. And I think John is being both a comedic and dramatic actor he could really kill this and I saw the style little maybe a little more old fashioned dialogue driven talky comedy, less slapstick, and broad more behavioral comedy with hopefully, you know, still a bunch of good lines and I stole a bunch of ZEVs really good lines in his script. And I took a lot from the book. And and this being a genre hadn't quite worked in there wasn't like a semi autobiographical thing. I did what I've watched people like Judd do which is get some of your really smart comedy friends to read it and pitch you some some ideas which really helped me unlock some things that I could write to. Bill Hader gave us great ideas. John's really good friends with Robert Carlock 30 Rock he gave us great ideas he gave the script to Neil Gaiman, who Shawn knows from Good Omens Neil Gaiman loves the flesh books and, and I was so thrilled because he liked the script. And he gave me he gave me a cup of like two notes that I absolutely did the made things much better. So, you know, I thought, Well, why not take advantage of all these great people? I know that's something take advantage of the great cast that I think we can get. And that's where we began

Alex Ferrari 58:21
I mean, look, if you've got to deal game and on top I mean, if you're gonna Yeah, I mean, I'll take advantage of that. You know, what kind of idiot we're not. Shit. That's, that's amazing. Like, yeah, Neil, do you what do you think so yeah, here's a couple notes. Like, sure. It's great if you could get that access. But that's me. That's, that's remarkable. No, it was a really fun movie. And the way you approached it was really an A John's performance is I've been a fan of John's. One of my favorite things John ever did was the SNL sketch with Michael Buble. A Hammond bubbly, one of the I mean, my wife and I watched that, like every every, like six months, like you remember it, let's, let's bring that back. It's just his performance. It's a John is such a great great, great comedic actor. And he has such great timing. Um, he's a fantastic dramatic actor, but in this movie gets to play both really, really, really well.

Greg Mottola 59:13
Well, that's what I was excited about for to get to put John in the middle of you know, these weirdos and let him do both and let him Yeah, and let him really lean into his timing and, and, you know, ya have a real sustained comedic performance with be a very specific guy who's unconventional who looks you know, like there's a lot of sending up rich people in the movie and he looks like he could walk into a yacht club or a really upscale art dealers gallery or rich person's apartment or whatever, and, and they all let him in and they'd all open up to him. They think he's one of them. And I really believe Fletch has a different value system and all these people, he just happens to look like, you know, handsome loss. And so and so he can, he can go around taking advantage of that to to get the information he wants and to trick people. And so I thought he's kind of perfect. If you go back to the character from Book Three, he is a character in the book is younger than than John is so but what kind of worked about confess Fletcher's? He's a retired investigative reporter. So that made some sense that he's, he's been away from this world, and he's kind of getting sucked back into a version of it. And you know, some people have reacted to like, you can't make Fletch with someone who wasn't like Chevy Chase. And I think I think I can see that. That's what that's what they want. They want, you know, they want more movies with Chevy doing the part

Alex Ferrari 1:00:51
98 Chevy from 1980 Something which he is now and I

Greg Mottola 1:00:55
And then I would have loved that too. I wish I wish they had I mean, maybe they made a mistake by making the second movie not based on one of the books, maybe they should have tried to stay a little more faithful to the books, who knows. It's not for me to decide. But But I would have loved to have seen Chevy do all the books. But at the same time, you know, the long goodbye by Raymond Chandler has been adapted probably three or four times.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:21
Stars but for God's sakes, yeah,

Greg Mottola 1:01:24
I thought I thought you know, for people some people say this is sacred, you cannot touch it was like now you know, it's it's an adaptation. You know, if it doesn't float your boat, you have to watch. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:36
Like I was I was there at the premiere of Footloose when they made the remake with Craig Brewer, who made the remake of it. And you know, the remake was the remake was fine, but it's not the it's not the Kevin Bacon one. It's just, it's never gonna be the Kevin Bacon. It's a moment in time. Just like Fletch in the 80s was a moment in time that can never be reproduced no matter what you tried to do now?

Greg Mottola 1:01:57
Yeah, exactly. So that's why I thought we'll use a different book. And we'll have a different tone. And we'll you know, we never really talked much about making it a period piece, that's probably wouldn't have been too expensive. Anyway, we had to, you know, part of the way we broke the flesh curse was that we were willing to work really fast and work but within, you know, felt a little more like do daytrippers than I expected. But that's the kind of the way the world now is like, certain they give a billion dollars to Lord of the Rings, and then the rest of us have to have to work on the catering budget from Lord of the Rings.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:36
I mean, but if you were to put a John in a cape, I mean, you would have gotten at least another 50 million.

Greg Mottola 1:02:42
Yeah, yeah. If you can we make Fletch

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
I can imagine in the studio, get flush superpowers, can we? Can he be like a mutant that dissolves Croc?

Greg Mottola 1:02:54
Yeah, just you know, people who love the books won't have a problem with that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:00
Which is millions of people. Now when is it coming out? And when people can where can people see it?

Greg Mottola 1:03:05
It's what's getting kind of this hybrid really is because we live in a brave new world where where, you know, the pandemic screwed with movie distribution. And this kind of medium mesh comedy is adult skewing to a bit. I mean, it doesn't really, you know, it's not a lot of pop culture references and and, and dirty shit like and super bad. I apologize. They can't do it every time. And and so you know, it's not perceived as necessarily a big theatrical moneymaker, which I get, especially as moment time is everything all bets are off. People are scrambling trying to figure out what are movies now. Anyway. So we're getting this limited released in theaters starting this Friday the 16th It'll be in about 450 theaters around the country in the main major markets. You know, it's not getting a Top Gun level promotion. But I didn't expect it to I'm actually quite honestly, I always thought this will go straight to streaming in this moment in time, the kind of size of movie it is and the style of it being not super broad. And how many movies how many comedies have even been on screens lately? It's I feel a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:27
I can't fit in the theater system right now.

Greg Mottola 1:04:31
Come from studios.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:34
No, no, not not in a big not big releases. No.

Greg Mottola 1:04:38
I mean, like you know, these big Yeah, all these you know, like, Kevin Hart. Movies go to netflix. I mean, he was he suffered any BS Yeah, yeah, definitely tons of movie. He's his movies made tons of money in the box office and now they're all going to Netflix and

Alex Ferrari 1:04:54
I mean, the rock is going to Netflix for God's sakes. I mean, yeah, black Adam coming out soon, but But yeah, I mean, when you got someone like one of the biggest movie stars in the world going straight to streaming whatnot going straight it started in streaming. But yeah, I mean, could read notice could read notice if it was released? Because that's an action comedy. Could that have made a couple 100 million dollars in the box office?

Greg Mottola 1:05:15
Yeah. You think, but you know, but the pandemic changed things and yeah, and and, and you know, people are strapped for money and I get it. But so I'm glad that it's getting kind of theatrical, I see it as kind of an indie release. It's sort of like getting the thing that's, that has changed. But it's interesting is that even maybe a year ago or two years ago, the major chains, AMC Regal, so forth, would not take a movie that's also opening on demand the same day, and we are opening on demand the same day. And they're, the major chains are willing to show Fletch, so so

Alex Ferrari 1:05:57
They don't have a choice. Now,

Greg Mottola 1:05:58
I mean, they're negotiating. Exactly the you know, the whole, like, we won't take anything with less than a 90 day window has all gone away. And, and which is good for me, because now some people can see it in a theater. And I think, I think you know, because a lot of the jokes are not pointed out, they're a little more dry, or just happened without, without elbowing the audience in the ribs. I think it I've seen it with, with an audience a few times. And it, it plays nicely. I think people actually laugh and focus in a slightly different way. But I'll be happy if you watch it on any form. If you watch it on your Apple Watch, I'll be grateful. And then I was just gonna say, at the end of October, it's going to be it's going to move to showtime.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
Okay, so perfect, perfect. I tell everybody, they have to go watch it. It's a really, really fun film, whether you like the Chevy one or not. It's just a good film stand alone. It's, it's a really nice approach to that material without question. Now, I do have to ask you one question, because you worked on one of my favorite shows of the last, you know, 1015 years. newsroom is it was a masterpiece of television. It's one of those it's up there for me up there with the sopranos and Breaking Bad. It's just such a well written show and such a well done show. And you were obviously a co executive producer on it. You worked with Aaron, I just have to ask you, what was it? What did you how did you approach working with Aaron Sorkin and how was that collaboration on the newsroom?

Greg Mottola 1:07:32
Well, it's I mean, yeah, Aaron's brilliant, there's no question of that. And I, you know, for better or worse, I thought, well, let's up approach the pilot slightly differently than his other shows, which are very sort of classical, beautifully directed often by Tommy Shlomi, who's a fantastic director. But I thought I don't want to ape his style. What if we give it a slightly edgier more? You know? All green grass handhelds? Yeah. So dirty or five? Or you know, and I actually ended up getting I've terrible memory the DP who shoots who shot like United?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:23
Oh, yeah. 93 93 Paul's Paul's DP?

Greg Mottola 1:08:27
Yeah, and I can't believe I'm forgetting space and just my terrible I'm getting old. Great guy, great DP who operates himself shoots off Ken loach's movies. And, and we shot everything with three cameras going at all times. I kind of wanted to shoot 35 HPSI Well, that'll, you know, get a little expensive and the cameras are heavy. What about 16? So we shot the pilot on 16 then moved over to digital. And, you know, 16 has its drawbacks, because it is it is Granier and maybe maybe a bit too grainy, but I feel like it was an interesting experiment for the pilot. And the cool thing about pilots is you can change a lot in episode two and people tend not to notice. Like all the offices we built this amazing set for for the pilot which was like the bullpen and the and the control room and the little stage where he does his broadcasts will roll McAvoy sets and it was all live and wired. You could have one camera in the control room with Emily Mortimer another camera with Jeff Daniels and me shooting live. And it was fantastic. It was so much fun and it was exciting. And I think it gave it a it gave it a very special feel. But they didn't want to spend all the money to then build all the offices so we shot on location for the offices and of course they all changed in the second episode. No one's ever no one's ever asked about it. And I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed if I was the fear. So so? Yeah, so we took that approach but with with Aaron's writing, actors need to be fully prepared. The way every scene would start was Aaron would come down to set. We just read it sitting in chairs, and the actors would read it. And Aaron would give notes on performance and and lions and sometimes on punctuation. Aaron's the kind of guy who says, like, No, that's a double dash. You need to clip it at the end, or you need to cut her off exactly at the beginning of this syllable. I mean, here's a musical imposes it in his head. And he wants to he wants it to be acted the way he heard it. Because it's not like he wrote it and said, this is perfect. No, he wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it until the music sounded right to him. So there is there is a real mastery to how he's writing. And some of the actors are used to that some of the actors are in love theater, people are used to it. And so the actors like what the hell and then once they start to do it, they see why he wants it that way. And so often, we would start shooting the scene and slowly speed it up. As we go along. We get the beats down. So the psychology and the behavior all felt right. The moments all felt right. And then I'd say, Okay, now do it a little bit faster, and a little bit faster. So then it starts to feel like an Sorkin which is that incredibly bright people. Yeah, who with, with neurons firing way faster than mine do. And, and, and it's great. It's great. And he's also a lover of, you know, I watched, I watched His Girl Friday a bunch of times before starting because because I was saying this to someone the other day, those are Hollywood movies. The scripts are like 150 pages, because people talk so fucking fast. And that's the way that's the way Aaron writes. And it's so pleasurable when you've got great actors doing it. And that cast cast was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:10
Oh, my God. And Jeff, I mean, Jeff, well, that whole opening monologue on on about America. Oh, my God. I mean, I've seen that on YouTube. 1000 times of like, you know, how America is not great and all that stuff. But the way he did it was so loving, so beautiful, so truthful, so raw, and it's just like, the cadence of a Sorkin script. And it's like, you're right. There's people firing on all cylinders, like everybody is. So like, even the intern in the scene, is smart as a whip and had some amazing luck. That's just the case. So that's a simple that's a circuit with kind of like a Tarantino script. Like Tarantino has his own air vibe of that. And yeah, people don't talk like that. Human beings don't talk like that. But that's what's beautiful about watching. And listening to that.

Greg Mottola 1:12:56
Yeah, that's his. That's his. That's his style. That's his artistic choice. And it comes from theater. And he tends to write scenes that have movements in them. You know, some writers write for the visual medium that something happens and butts up against something else in another scene and butts up against something else and the story unfolds. Aaron writes, like a playwright, and he writes things that happen and unfold in front of the audience. And I think it's totally valid and quite exciting when it's done by a master. Because it is a different experience, watching things change, watching the actors, attitudes change, watching watching them affect each other, in real time in the scene, as opposed to seeing the change happening over a series of you know, over the course of an episode. You're seeing the drama happening in front of you, which sometimes I think people forget is a tool of storytelling. Because they you know, look, I'd love things being cinematic. But there there are a lot of ways to do it. And his way is a really interesting one. Endlessly watchable Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:11
Thank you for making helping make that show what it is, man. I like literally just love, love love. So sad. When that didn't come back. I wanted more and more

Greg Mottola 1:14:18
I was there's five seconds where they thought they really would revive it in the Trump age. And I think probably the end of the day, they were just like, what, how, how would you even take this on?

Alex Ferrari 1:14:28
Oh, like, I mean, how can you make it? Yeah, you can't like Yeah, I can't even go down that road. No, Greg, I just have a couple questions. Ask all my guests really kind of rapid fire questions. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Greg Mottola 1:14:43
Um, listen to me the longest learn was probably that I shouldn't have touched on this earlier. I insist that I have to be an auteur who writes and directs is on movies. I really thought it was still had cheating to direct other people's words. Uh, that it had to be personal because those are the films that affected me the most. And I realized I'm a slow writer, I'm sometimes a neurotic not terribly confident writer. You know, I have to I have to be doing it for a while to get back into it and believe I can do it. And I also like being on set I really love being on set and in Soderbergh is when the first people said to me, like, it's okay, if you direct someone else's screen screenplay. It's it's fine it's like those take really long time to write spend more time on a set and you'll get better and better at making movies and TV and and it was great advice and and I was so lucky that when I moved to LA I got to work on on declared Arrested Development the comeback? I mean, I worked on only fucking kick ass shows. So so like, you know it with great writing. And then and then later the newsroom and got to work with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost who I absolutely adore. So, yeah, so but then I thought you know, I have done more writing in the last decade. Some things that haven't gotten made in addition to my little indie film, but you know, I take the attitude like I said earlier the lesson is, is it's okay I'm gonna I'm gonna direct everything that I write everything I drag that's okay. And and I'm much happier for it and it's okay to take time to write and and wait till it's ready and but not waste time feeling you know feeling sorry for myself if things fall apart.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:41
And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time.

Greg Mottola 1:16:48
This is fun. You know, it's hard not to pick movies that are giant classics. I know like if I were to be honest 2001 is one of my favorite films of all time. To me it it takes the spectacle movie and turns it into something completely different in our house. Yeah into it it takes a spectacle movie in terms of our house film and yet stills also like a cat and mouse thriller for the whole house section. And is brilliant and gives you so much to to think about and and wonder about, no matter how many times I see it. And when my parents took me to see it when I was nine they fell asleep. And it stuck in my head like a crazy dream for my entire life. So there's that the movie I'd probably if the world was exploding and I was told I can save one movie would probably be eight and a half. I love Fellini deeply. And I love everything about that movie. That movie to me is the most entertaining. Exploration of self that I've ever seen. And, and I love every detail in it. I love how it's shot. I love the music. I love the performances. I just it's another film I can watch a million times now picking a third. It's gonna be a little tricky. Um There was a time where I might have picked a Woody Allen movie, but I'm not going to touch that right now. I mean, to be honest, I can't I can't lie about my experience when I saw those movies. I know what I felt.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:42
Hey, look, all I gotta say is I had someone say the other day is like, can I say any Hall make any halls a great movie? I'm sorry. It's a great movie. It's you know, it's, it's really good. But I understand where you're coming from.

Greg Mottola 1:18:56
I would probably say I probably say Goodfellas. Goodfellas is, you know, being a New Yorker, being I'm half Italian American being a lifelong Scorsese, lover. Of course fascinated with that world, and just the explosion of cinema that movie is but everything is there for a reason. There's there's just it's not it's you know, endlessly inventive. cinematically, but it's not somehow it's not. It doesn't feel show offI it doesn't feel like hey, look at me I can do this. This looks this is cool. It's like it is cool. But it's better than just being cool. It's fucking telling the story and and in immersing you in the emotions, and expressing everything about that world. What's exciting and dangerous and compelling, and just horrifying and awful and vicious and inhuman about that world.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:06
You know that in so many filmmakers, especially when we're starting out, we all want to do the Scorsese shots. We don't want to do the Kubrick shots we don't want to. Yeah, we all want those like, you know, long crane shots, the whiners that this kind of stuff, right? Yeah, but even in Goodfellas, the wonder that everybody wants to try to do which is that bat that going through the kitchen, Steadicam shot, it's not there to show off, it's literally there to tell the story. And is truly don't under like, as a director looking at that scene. I'm like, how do you tell that story without the one? Or like, how do you tell that bit of information about Henry Hill without that one? And I wonder is so economical? In has all this so beautifully done?

Greg Mottola 1:20:47
Yeah, you could tell it in shots, you could break it up into shots, and you can you can show his walking through all those places. But it wouldn't have the emotion of the passing through the kitchen and all the other life going on and ending up at that table on the table being plopped down in front of them. And ending on fucking any young men.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:11
What do you do again, how it construction.

Greg Mottola 1:21:15
I mean, ya know, and it's, it's, and it is, it is incredible mastery of the form. But it isn't just there to show look on the master, it's there because that is the best way to tell that, that that part of the story, and it's yeah, it's amazing. And I can watch that movie. Again and again and again and again. And again, come away from a second boy on mediocre computer.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:40
And how and by the way, and this is the last thing I want to say how many of us growing up look at the masters the Kubrick's the Scorsese's The, the wells, the you know, all Spielberg's, and you look at their films, and you're like, I can't get out of bed because it's just an insane filmmaker. Like, I'll never be Kubrick. I can't get out of why should I even try? It's kind of like, I'll never paint I'll never be Picasso. Of course not. There's only a handful of those masters in the world. But you can do something. I hate to say look, Kubrick would have made an interesting super bad, but but probably not as good as your super bad in my opinion, though, would have been a very into Scorsese could have done an interesting, super bad, no question. But also in I think, as Denzel Washington says, like, you know what scores it's Spielberg could have been an interesting Goodfellas. And Marty could have made an interesting Schindler's List. No question. But those films were built for those filmmakers from their perspective. Yeah. Life. And, and, you know, everyone has that, that that path they walk and that everyone's going to be did actually there's going to be no one that's going to be a Nolan. There's no one that's going to be a Fincher or Soderbergh or Spielberg because they've already taken that mantle. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 1:22:53
Well, there's a great Albert Brooks story. He became friendly with Kubrick because Kubrick really liked comedy. He loved Woody Allen. He loved Albert. Yes. And he talked to strain he, yeah. And he wrote, he became like a kind of a phone friend with Albert Brooks. And at one point, he Albert Brooks was writing last in America. And Kubrick said, let me read it. I'll give you some notes. And so he's like, Oh, my God, Stanley Kubrick is going to read my fucking script. This is amazing. And then the notes came back. He's like, they were terrible. It was really cool. Still, it's like, but they weren't funny. It's like Stanley Kubrick's lost in America would be very, very different. And Albert Brooks, I think, is brilliant. And he's one of my favorite comedy filmmakers of all time. But yeah, it's like, yeah, to your point. Yeah, you just have to try to be the best version of yourself. I, I try to approach them and say like, Well, what do I think I could do here that the other guy wouldn't do? That might actually be good. So that's how I go in.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:51
Greg, man, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, my friend. Thank you so much for being here.

Greg Mottola 1:23:56
Alex. This was much fun, man.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:58
Thank you for all the years of amazing entertainment and and continue to do what you do and continue doing what you do, sir, even though you're mediocre, as you said, but no, seriously, my friend, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you, man.

Greg Mottola 1:24:12
Thank you. Thank you so much, Alex. I hope to do it again some day.

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BPS 389: From Short Films to Narcos with Josef Kubota Wladyka

October 17, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Today on the show we have writer, producer, and director Josef Kubota Wladyka.

Josef Kubota Wladyka’s debut feature film, Manos Sucias, won Best New Narrative Director at the 2014 Tribeca Film Festival and was nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards, Best First Feature and Best Editing.

Josef has also directed episodes of the acclaimed television shows, Narcos, Fear the Walking Dead, and The Terror. Residing in Brooklyn, New York, Josef holds an MFA from New York University’s Graduate Film Program and was named one of Filmmaker Magazine’s 25 New Faces of Independent Film. He remains committed to making socially conscious genre films.

Kaylee “K.O.” Uppashaw, a mixed Indigenous boxer, prepares for a championship fight. Her hands are wrapped, gloves taped shut, and face greased. She pounds the mitts with her trainer, Brick. The room echoes with the strength of each hit. She’s preparing for the boxing match of her life. The crowd roars in the distance as the sounds crescendo into a fever pitch— Kaylee wakes up in a women’s shelter from a wishful dream of a life she once had.

This is her reality. A boxer struggling to pick up the pieces of her life. After her shift working at a diner, Brick drives her to a clandestine rendezvous. They meet a P.I. who presents evidence that Weeta, Kaylee’s younger sister who disappeared two years ago, is possibly alive and circulating in a trafficking network.

He tells her a time and place to plug herself into this dangerous world in hopes of finding her sister. Kaylee agrees and sets off on a dark and treacherous journey. Her strength and determination are tested as Kaylee fights the real fight of her life—to find Weeta and make her family whole again.

Enjoy my conversation with Josef Kubota Wladyka.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Josef Wladyka. How're you doing, Josef?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 0:14
Doin well Alex, thank you so much for having me. I first just want to say it's a great, great honor. What your podcast stands for and continuing the indie hustle of filmmaking and the array of different types of people you have on the podcast. It's great. So I'm just I'm just very grateful to be on. So thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:33
Oh, man, thank you so much for coming on man, I appreciate those kind words matter. You know, let's, I wanted to create something that you know, that can help filmmakers along this insane path that is being a filmmaker and, and try to just try to warn them before the boulder comes and crushes them. So just like you know, just let them know that the Boulder is going to come. And they can run away from it or duck it or something else Indiana Jones style, but most people don't even know that they're boulders lying around. So

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01
Yeah big boulders and is really kind of shine a light on how each individual person's journey is different. You know, there's no, there's no right or wrong way of doing it. And just to hear everyone's different experiences and how they kind of survive it, you know, I think is a great tool and a great asset for for indie filmmakers, and we need it. We need indie films more now more than ever, you know. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:26
I agree. 100% I think most people focus on the idle and not on the boulder that's gonna come down across them. Right, exactly. So Joseph, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:43
Yeah, man. Well, um, you know, since I was a little kid, I was always obsessed with films. I think the influence definitely came from from my parents. My mother was from Japan, and my father's from Poland. So they were both cinephiles, you know, arguing over Kieslowski and Andre Vida and Ozu and Kurosawa. So that sort of residue was always around. Me and my brothers, I'm the youngest of three brothers. And, you know, my mom really always tried to get us to watch different types of films, she would take us if Seven Samurai was screening in like Washington, DC, she would take us there to watch it. But you know, we, me and my brothers would want to go see Terminator two and sneak on our bikes in sneaking sentimental place. So so, you know, it was always there that influence and, you know, we mean, my brothers used to take like little VHS cameras out into the woods and make these silly little films where we chop off her head and roll a cam cantaloupe into the camera and cutting all in camera. And in high school, you know, I was I was a pretty terrible student in high school. And so a lot of the times the writing papers and stuff, I will just make sort of like these really bad VHS, little short films. And also, our morning announcements at the time we're on, we're on TV, and we come into class and watch more announcements. So I used to, like, make videos for that to promote the school dances so and so forth. But then, you know, the reality set in when I'm the college, that, first of all, like I didn't, I never thought that filmmaking was something that I could actually do make a living doing. You know, I grew up in Northern Virginia outside DC. So there was, there was no one. I wasn't around any artists, you know, I wasn't around anyone who, who just made films, or was a part of that world at all. And so I was just kind of like, falling following the status quo. You know, I went to I went to college, and I studied business, because that's what all my friends were doing. And I figured, I would just, you know, come back, I would graduate college and get a get a nine to five and sort of, I guess that's what my life supposed to be. And then when I got an internship, one summer doing a job like that. And I quickly realize that this is absolutely something that I do not want to do. And I need to figure out what I really want to do, you know, so, oh, there was an opportunity after college, a friend of mine was making like an indie film, a low budget film, and I had the opportunity to work on that as like an assistant in a PA. And that was the first time I saw the, the the whole process really in front of me, you know, of a film being made. And I think I was a 22 at the time 23 And once that once that happened, you know, the bug bit me and it was it was over and ever since then I've just been obsessed with trying to make films you know. So you know, I got about Rebel Without a crew and the the guerrilla indie filmmaker handbook.

Alex Ferrari 4:50
It's right back there.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 4:51
I moved back I moved to DC. And I was a I was walking dogs during the day and waiting tables. At night, saving up money, and I bought a you know, a dvx Panasonic dvx200 or whatever it was the great camera

Alex Ferrari 5:07
100A, it was a 100A That's why I shot my first short on it was a full 24p camera. Oh, so great.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 5:14
Yeah, man, those cameras look great, they still look great. I think to this day, they have such a great look to em. Oh, yeah. And then I just started hustling, I just started saving up money to make my first like short film. And I did that for for a few years. And I was very, you know, I was a person that was very adamant about not going to film school. You know, I was part of the like, film school, you know, I'm just gonna do it myself, and so on and so forth. But for me personally, and you know, everyone's journey is different, you know, if some people have, there's some people that have just had an amazing talent and skill, they really don't need to go to film school, you know, like a PTA or something like that, you know. But for me, I just, I kept making these short films, but I found myself sort of hitting this wall of, I don't know, just like, I just knew that there was more to it. And like I didn't, I just wasn't making anything that interesting. I didn't know anything about working with, with really working with actors, you know, and all that stuff. So and also my mom, you know, education is very important to my mom, and she's Japanese and my oldest brother's a doctor, so on and so forth. So, you know, that's when I started to think about going to film school. So and then, you know, I started to kind of look more closely at some film directors that I admire. And I was like, whoa, hold on a second. Like, you know, Aronofsky went to AFI, Scorsese and Spike went to NYU, you know, there are people that went to film school. So maybe, you know, maybe this is something that maybe this is what I need, you know, at this time. So, yeah, I had made all these shorts there. I knew there was only one film school, grad film school that I was going to apply to, which was NYU, new grad film. One of the main reasons is because it's the only film school that doesn't make you take the GRAri's. So

Alex Ferrari 7:07
I understand I understand. I understand this, bro. My high school transcripts were horrendous. When I got to college, I was like, first in my class. But when I was like, I went to film school, I was, I think I was first or second in my class. And then I went back to college just for fun, just to learn, like I went to a community college just take philosophy courses in psychology courses and stuff. And people like, what's your major? I'm like, I'm just here for fun. And they're like, What do you why do you what? So I get it, trust me, it does, I say decent GREs,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 7:36
Terrible standardized test taker, I got 1000 them, they tease like, so I knew there was no way you know, all those other films that I was, like, if I take the GRPs forget about it. And then, you know, a jury was always always a dream of mine to live in New York City, and to be like, the filmmaker living in New York City with all the like, the legendary iconic directors that have come from there. So I applied to NYU grad film. And, and I don't know how to live, but somehow I got in, out of the 3535 students that they accept. And then I think, you know, that's when, you know, there's a real pivot in terms of, I just kind of, you know, really ate, drank and slept cinema for that amount of time when I when I was in school, and I was around other great talented classmates and artists, and just studying film. And it was really, it was a tough time in a lot of ways. But a really, really special time. Because all that's all I really had to worry about. Now, obviously start to accrue a lot of student debt, which was, which is another thing which we can get to later later down the line. But yeah, that's, that's, that's basically, you know, I went to film school, I started making shorts. And then I made my first low budget feature film, in 2013. Film called Manasu CS and that actually, that was my thesis film. From from school. So So yeah, that's kind of

Alex Ferrari 9:11
The kind of the general the general like, I have to ask you. What did your Japanese mother say? When you said I want to be a filmmaker.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:19
You know, my mom is amazing thing. She has a she's a strong, strong Japanese. I didn't we didn't really have much of a relationship with our Father. We were raised by a single mother, me and my brothers. So you know, just raising three boys on your own. There's already a sort of toughness to her. But I think because she loves movies so much, you know, and she she's Yeah, she just she appreciates the art she's that she was like a ballroom dancer, professional ballroom dancer for a long time

Alex Ferrari 9:51
So she gets it she gets she got it

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:53
So she totally got it. I mean, I think she was very extremely worried for me many times, many, many Just along the way. But, you know, my oldest brother is, you know, neuroradiologist. So she got the doctors so that's good, you know, so, so I guess it could have been my youngest is like

Alex Ferrari 10:13
Yeah, you can have your it's your you can have fun. You're the artist, you're the artist. I have the doctor, I can have the artist as well, who is the best of both worlds? No, I get it, man. I get it. Now, was there a film that lit your fire? That your flame for this? Like, was there a movie you saw you just like, Man, I gotta, I gotta I gotta do some. I gotta, I gotta go shoot some movies.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 10:36
Oh, man. I don't know, man. It was like, it was it was all of them. You know, like, I was the 90s kid kind of like, I kind of feel like every filmmaker. There's like a window of their, their life. Maybe you say from like, eight. So like, 22 or something in the films that were sort of coming out in that time really, really impact you, you know. And so for me, yeah, it was like, you know, the, I mean, when I saw Fargo for the first time, I was like, Holy shit, you know, that's a movie that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:08
Dude, I was. I was, I was in college. And Pulp Fiction came out. I was in film school and I went to the theater down the street to go see Pulp Fiction. I literally remember falling out of my chair laughing at some of the scenes that were just so not because they were they were they were funny. But the audacity of what the filmmaker did, and how he was writing. And I was just like, what just happened? And I've had that moment a few times, watching a movie like Fight Club, the matrix Shawshank. There's certain movies that when you see them, they just like, I just things have changed, like Pulp Fiction is one of those movies. Yeah, No Country for Old Men Jesus, like, you know, if you want to go down the Coen Brothers filmography that's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 11:59
I mean, that's the perfect. It's the perfect film like that is like, I don't know. It doesn't get any better than that. And I love that movie. Unconditionally. Love that movie. Yeah, so I mean, it's all those films. And then it was kind of like a golden era of cinema in the 90s. No, people were doing their thing. Spike was doing this thing. Coen Brothers. Yeah, the matrix came out in 99. Right? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 12:22
Yeah. 99 Fight Club and the matrix both came out. And but 99 was a great year for movies. If I remember, there's a bunch of other movies that got released that year. They're just like, Jesus, like that was good in the 90s went out with a bang. My that time period for me was the 80s. And up until probably like the mid 90s. Up until I was around that time. And those are the movies that you know, Terminator.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 12:47
Terminator is probably the the film I've watched the most in the theater, I think. Because me and my brother would sneak sneak in, watch it over again. And it actually my mom took us to see that and I remember crying when when when Arnold's getting

Alex Ferrari 13:09
Cameron, one of the most underrated writers of his generation. I think he's a he's not an underrated filmmaker of his generation. But he's an underrated writer. They don't talk much about his writing, but he is one of the best writers of his generation and he might not be as flashy as some of the other more known screenwriters. But man you look at you look at Terminator, man and people listening if you were a kid, if you saw Terminator two in the theater, you like i Dude, I had I think I still have in my mom's house. The card like the the sporting card collection of the Terminator. Movie cards. Yeah, I had everything do I bought everything Terminator two, the books that it was just such a phenomenon. when that movie came out, it just it made Arnold Arnold. I think that's that was that was the one that really made him explode.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 13:59
It's a great film, and it's a great film. Yeah, but I would say, You know what, it was not a good, um, you know, there was something like, you know, I had studied business and you work if you do you want to lose, it's like you're working. You don't really know what you're really your job is what do you do contributing to really know and for me, like, filmmaking was tactile in the sense of like, you know, I write something, you know, 10 minutes short, I write it, and then I shoot it and I edit it. And then I can't remember what program I used to put it on the DVD, you know what I mean? And then I can I can show it to people, you have product in that, you know, that seeing that whole system, like that made sense to me. Like, it was very simple, you know, you write something you make something and then you try to show it to people. And when I was waiting tables, I would have stacks of my burnt DVDs with my really shitty I'm talking really shitty short films. And I would just give them out to like, people that would come into the restaurant, you know? And so So I think that was a big part of it. It was like the first thing in my life that I that I just understood. Obviously, there's the complexities and how deep it goes was I was so naive, you know what I mean? I was just young, just jumping off the ledge and in doing whatever, but but just something about, you know, you write something, shoot it, you make it, and it's there. It's very, I don't know, I just, it made sense to me.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
No, without without question. And I mean, I've had, I actually had a, like a nine to five as an editor in that corporate environment multiple times. And you just feel like, you don't, I don't know you. It's a paycheck. And it's nice when it's a nice paycheck. But it's not really fulfilling your soul in many ways. You know, definitely a creative soul. So I rather sometimes be broke and having fun. Especially when you're younger, when you're younger, you could do things like that when you get older, it's a little tougher to do these things. But when you were saying like, Oh, yeah, it was a really great time. But a tough time when I basically all I had to think about in school was film, and you just absorb yourself in watching movies, talking about movies, and making movies, learning about the process. And that was what film school was for me, like, I literally had three or 400 VHS tapes that I brought up to college with me, and I just watched them and I would rent stuff. And it was just five, six movies a day, it was insane. It was just, it's just something that you don't get an option, you don't get an option to do as much anymore. And the world we live in. Now, you also mentioned about school debt. You know, I've had multiple, I've had multiple conversations with filmmakers who one poor guy $300,000 in film school debt, you want to call? Yeah, and it was like, and he's like, I'm, I'm never gonna get that that's I'm done. I can't ever pay that off. You know, sometimes it's, it's all a value, it's a conversation, I'd love to hear your point of view, because I'm sure you still have a little bit of student debt. Maybe you've been lucky enough to pay it off, I was lucky to pay mine off pretty quickly what mines was, like 1820 grand for my entire film course. I went to a Tech Tech film college. And I was able to pay it off within a few years, but some of my friends just still around their neck. So what's your opinion on it?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 17:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't, man, it's tough. I've been really lucky and fortunate to have been able to sort of establish myself as a television director, and episodic television director. But there was some really dark times, especially like, after I was done with grad school. And basically, you know, you could at the time in the program, you could keep matriculating and taking out loans to live. And, you know, I don't know how I how good it is like, but you know, like, in terms of like, being responsible, but basically what I was doing is I would take out loans, and then I was going on, like research trips, and I was as I was, I was trying to make my first feature film, you know, so you think you could matriculate for like two to three years. And then you have to make your film and then you have to graduate. So, so I did that. And I and I went in so I took a big gamble, you know, and I went to a lot of a lot of debt, which is really, really, really terrifying. And then there was a moment, you know, after I made my feature film, and it got into film festivals and stuff like that, right. And I had a manager and I had agents and stuff but like I was I had no idea how I was gonna how I was gonna make money, you know? And so I was Yeah, I was thinking about moving back in back home and like working at the restaurant. I used to work there before I went to film school and like, you know, it was it was it was it was very very dark and also happening at the time was I was getting a lot of you know, scripts sent to me you know when different projects sent to me but I was saying no to everything because to be honest, the stuff that was being said was really bad. You know, there's a lot of bad shit out there. And you know, I'm not Scorsese and I'm not gonna get stuck in Sorkin so I can script sent to me I'm gonna get the fucking you know a piece together talk it's been rewritten like 20 times generic fucking programmer script and they're gonna want me to you know, I mean So yeah, there was a rough there was a rough like year there and then what actually ended up happening is my mom was a legend. You know, she was like, basically like, well, you need to you need to stop saying no to all this shit. She was like, in the fucking work. She was like, I I don't care if you think you I don't know who you think you are, you know, but you're not.

Alex Ferrari 20:04
I was I was thinking that in my head. I'm like, Look, I get you, man. I feel you. Because I was said crap too. But it's like, sir, like, I would rather direct crap to get my mug get something on the off the ground. And then and instead of work, you know working at you know, waiting tables. I mean look man, Tarantino, Tarantino, Scorsese. I mean, he worked with Corman, everybody worked with Cormen, you know, every, you know, Cameron did Parana too I mean, like it's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 20:34
No and then and then she was like, I think I think it was it was probably like, I can't remember those 2014 or 2015. But basically it was New Year, personnel worried and shit. And my New Year's resolution after talking to her was I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna say yes to everything. I'm gonna fuckin say yes to everything. I'm gonna go up for these films, I'm going to so and so forth. Anything that comes just let's let me read program my mind. And it's amazing how much everything changed once that once I did that, because, you know, so I started going up for these studio films and stuff that I'm, you know, I'll save you watch films, and stuff like that. But, um, but you know, I was pitching to Michael DeLuca, who was the head of Sony at the time, I was meeting with all these people I was, you know, my, my people were seeing me, and I was practicing a big tool that's part of being a director, which is basically being a salesperson of yourself, you know, pitching in on stuff, and is one of the one of the things that they really didn't teach us that much in film school, which I, I mean, I don't know how you prepare for that, you know, it's kind of like, you just have to be thrown into it. So I just started saying, yes, those stuff and like, you know, more and more things started. I almost got, you know, I never I was like me, between me and one a director, but the other director had made all this money for us to do some No, so no, but what came out of that was just more opportunities. And then finally, there was an opportunity. In my writing partner who I wrote my first feature film with, there was an opportunity to write a pilot for HBO, for the director, Tim Van Patten. Who's the legend? You know, he's directed the most of the episodes of sopranos, the pilot for Game of Thrones. And so that was our that was our first paid gig. And at the time, really, oh, my God, we made it. Lots of lots of lessons to learn about going through that process. Because after you're on your 10th rewrite of it, maybe you're not getting paid as much as you think you're getting paid when you see the first initial number, you know. Sure. Um, so. So that came and then, um, and then really, yeah, and then and then the opportunity to direct Narcos came. And again, I was in this like, yes. period of my life.

Alex Ferrari 22:56
It was this season was season two.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:00
Yeah, it was season two. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 23:02
So Narcos was Narcos at this point already.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:05
Yeah, it is. Yes, Narcos. Well, I'm so crazy. We're going in the Time Machine. I mean, Narcos was I think, you know, Narcos was well, I mean, there was House Of course naugus is one of the first original Netflix shows, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 23:20
It was one of it was one, if I remember correctly, it was in that first group, I mean, House of Cards, obviously is the one that crashed the door open but Narcos was then when I think within six months Narcos was announced

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:33
It's like the first 10 and I'm in Yeah. I mean, and I think the I think when I was interviewing for it, like the I don't know if the season had even really come out yet. So they didn't know that it was gonna be this like huge sort of global like it was it became their, like, big show internationally for a little while there. So, but when I was interviewing Florida, you know, it was just I, I didn't I didn't really know about it. So

Alex Ferrari 24:04
Did you know about Pablo? I mean, you obviously might have heard of Pablo Escobar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 24:08
I mean, I mean, the whole and I mean, this is why, you know, for all the filmmakers out there like you, you just have to make stuff you have to make stuff because that's if you don't have stuff to show people you got nothing in the only reason why I got Narcos is because my first feature film, which I shot in Colombia, in one of Ventura Colombia, it touched on you know, it was it dealt with the drug trade, but in a very, very different way. It's sort of the people that are most exploited by the drug play drug trade. But because I had made that film, my Colombian producer on that film was friends with the producing director on Narcos, his name's Andy bass. He's a he's a wonderful director, Colombian director. And he showed my film I had never met him before, but he it was like his favorite film that he'd seen in a while and, and then he showed it to the show, right? Eric Newman and then Eric Newman liked it. And I was on a, you know, Skype interview going forward. Basically, I mean, yeah, that's basically how it how it all started.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
So then so then you were on a plane down to Colombia. You shot and the shark won't be right or they didn't get Colombia. So yeah, I mean, I'm, I was fairly obsessed with those first few seasons. I've watched God let me because I've, I have a family who work, you know, who are Colombians, and like, you know, deep friends and family that were Colombians. I'm Cuban. But I you know, I'm fascinated by Pablo, huh?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:42
Yeah, I was gonna say Cubano

Alex Ferrari 25:44
Cubano de Miami. So I, it was it was I mean, it was such an amazing thing. And you didn't just direct one you drag it like five episodes. So I think you have five episodes. Right?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:58
I directed a five of Narcos and then the first two Narcos Mexico so I was a you know, a resident director. And I you know, again, I'm very very grateful for Miss amazing, that whole experience and and also I was the only I'm the only gringo to ever direct Narcos. They probably they all the other directors are these incredible Latin Latin American Direct. There's like Josie Paddy. And you know, Andy, obviously, Escalante, all these really, really amazing filmmakers. So for me, I was the lone gringo which very, very great. Yeah, it was yes. So I made my tiny little film right for like nothing. Basically, we shot on C three hundreds that were donated to us by Canon. And in this in cinema lenses had just come out the canon, similar lenses. And then my DP had to do light panels for my to shoot my whole entire first feature, that was the only lighting you had. And now I'm on a plane, correct? Blind down to do this ginormous television show with a crew of 200 people.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
I got to ask it, so I got to ask you, man. Alright, so how do you walk on the set the first day, I always love hearing these stories. Because when you walk on the first day of set, and you're like, I'm in a pretty intense scenario, even for a seasoned professional. It's a pretty intense scenario. And there's Narcos and yeah, it's all movie, but there's still you know, people around who are not nice guys. You know, so there's that stress as well. You know, where are you like, I'm sure security is off the chain on that plays in on the set everything. But when you walk on the set, and you talk to you look at the cast you had I you know, working on that second season, how do you walk on that set? And like what was the feeling you had when the day one of shooting like what what did what was going through your head man?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 27:57
Man, I mean, I was just it's interesting, because yeah, sort of my naivete was, in a way was a gift now that I've read, like six hours of television now. So like, I know what it's really all about, you know. But I gotta say, I just, I was really, really lucky. And I mean, I'm sure you know, all the people you have on your show. It's like, you got to work hard, and you got to be ready, but you got to have be lucky to Oh, yeah. And for me, what I was extremely lucky about with Narcos, my first this was my in mind you, I tried to like you interview for it, right? And they're like, oh, yeah, and then you know, in like, four months or whatever, that's when you're gonna go shoot so and you don't hear and you don't sign anything, you don't hear anything. So then I was like, Oh, I guess maybe this isn't happening or something. And then it's like, you know, about a couple weeks or a month out, and then they start engaging again. And I'm like, Holy fuck, I'm what's, what am I getting myself into? So I do like a mad frantic email to my team. And I say, you know, is there you know, you're the biggest fucking agency, can you because there's someone that I can like shadow here in New York just for a day just to see like, you know, I have no idea what it's like, you know, and they're like, Yeah, enough, nothing, nothing came out.

Alex Ferrari 29:24
Ofcourse, of course,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 29:25
The seat man is shooting this thing. And then you get on and I was like, but But I think, you know, it was too it's not on them. You know, it was me it was I was just too was too late. So luckily, again, all these little seeds of things that happen along the way. Because I had written or wrote that pilot for Tim Van Patten. I had established a good relationship with him and he's basically kind of come my main TV directing mentor like when I when I'm in a pickle or a tough situation. I always call him and he gives me the most I mean The most wise amazing amazing

Alex Ferrari 30:02
Yoda Yoda advice

Josef Kubota Wladyka 30:04
Exactly he's yoda. So it's about a week out. And I'm, like, terrified. And I in and I go over to his go over to his house and sit with him. And he's very patient and kind and he's like just asked me anything, there's no dumb questions, you know, there's no nothing. And so, you know, I sat there for three hours, you know, asking the dumbest dumbest questions. You know, I didn't know what, you know, the that he taught me what a tone meeting was, and like what you do, like in your first weeks of prep, and all in all of us, totally, I didn't know any of this stuff, you know. So, so that helped just kind of, at least get me the courage to get on the plane. But then again, once I flew down there, um, I was very, very lucky because I had an incredible first ad. His name is Oscar Farkas is Colombian, Colombian American, but we're very, very good friends to this day. And then Louis son sons was the DP that I worked with. And I was lucky because they were really, really patient with me, they were really, you know, I was very honest with like, where I was coming from, in my experience, you know, and so, so they really, they really kind of just helped kind of hold my hand through the whole process, which is incredible, you know, because, for example, like, my film, my films, both my films really, but I, I've made with non actors, basically. So for my first film, you know, I had built this relationships with these kids that act in my film for months, you know, months, and then we were in like a four week rehearsal camp before we started shooting. So we're basically family, you know, on a TV shoot, you show up, you shake the actors hands, and you block the scene, you start shooting. So for this, for me, was all the other stuff I could figure out, you know, like, where to put the camera and you know, that type of stuff, the tech stuff. That's, that's it, but yeah, that's like, that's the that's just second nature. And then at the end of the day, you realize it's all the same shit, it doesn't matter if you're on a gajillion budget thing or a no budget. It's what's happened. What's the life in front of the camera? Right, right. That's everything. So for me, that was the real big mystery part was like working with the actors, because you don't, you don't really know them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm used to having this close, like relationship with them. So Oscar, my ad was like, you know, I can really dumb questions like, you know, so like, what happens? So they come and like, you know, do we rehearse for a long time? Or for like, what are you doing? And he's like, he's like, here, here, this is what you do, you know, usually read the scene, read the words. And then you know,

Alex Ferrari 32:50
This is insane. This is insane. Like how can like a multi million dollar production is bringing bringing you in, and they're like, you're, like schooling you along the path of the process. And it's wonderful that they did that. But I find it so fascinating that the showrunner saw enough talent in you and said, he'll figure it out. We've got a support team around him. He'll figure it out. But I want his vision in my show. That's, that was a good showrunner does.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 33:22
Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's the magic of Eric Newman. You know, he is that's he, he finds these amazing filmmakers. And at that time, it was so amazing about Narcos that they really empowered you to try stuff. You know, I mean, so once I got comfortable. And once I figured out, you know, I mean, it's out, like I said, a couple days into shooting and you're like, Oh, you very, it's it's you get it. It's the same process, you know, but I remember one of my episodes, we did this crazy, one shot sequence, it was like a three minute, one wonder. And this was my first time doing television. And, and normally you have, like, you know, three weeks to rehearse and prepare that none of us none of that, that it was chaos. There was none of that. But we still managed to pull it off. But what was so great about Eric, like I said, is he's the type of showrunner that, if you pitch it to him, and he and he, and he likes it, you know, then then he'll fully support you for doing it. And for this particular one, you know, I wanted wasn't trying to do another cool one, or for the sake of being a cool one. Or it was actually the first time that Pablos family was actually in the line of fire in danger for the first time in the whole series. So I wanted to ground the audience subjectively, with his family in this house as everyone from around but sort of closing in so we're just experienced with them through this one shot. But again, you know, Eric, was 100% on board and supported it and, and yeah, I got really lucky with that whole team son sons, the DP they were just amazing, sweet, sweet, really, really great people. And yeah, And it's like, you know, I had I had spent a long time in Colombia, I shot with a lot of crews in South America and all that stuff. So it was a fun loving everyone is just, you know, fun, everyone's happy. It's had that kind of love very, very good vibe to it. And Vagner Mora, the actor plays a Pablo is just like, I mean, amazing, amazing to work with. You know, he watched my film The first. The first time I came on set, actually, we were we were, we were scouting, but they were shooting. And so I went to kind of say hi to some of the people and he was like, so nice, man. He gave me a hug. And he's like, I loved your film. He like watched my film all this stuff. I was like, what this is, I think I'll be okay. And I still wasn't okay, you know.

Alex Ferrari 35:44
So, so So let me ask you, I cuz I love asking this question, because I think we all as directors have this day. Is there a day on that first season of Narcos that you felt like everything was coming down crashing around you? You're losing the sun? The camera doesn't work? Something happens? And what was that day for you? If it wasn't every day? Which happens? And how did you break? How did you get through it? How did you figure it out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 36:12
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that, I mean, yeah, in television. I mean, television is a different beast, you know, you that's the that's the first thing you're shooting seven to 10 pages a day, it's a totally different than, like, when it's like your film, you know what I mean? And so there was a lot of days like that. I mean, there was one particular day where we were shooting this, like, huge set piece, you know, of course, they like dependent of course, we're behind schedule, the fucking sun setting all that shit. And it's like a three convoys of like, different, like military and lost pet bears, and everyone's can converging on this one spot, and we had to block off this whole fucking thing. And like, in like, and, you know, the scene was just Hell's written, or like how man, um, I just, I just knew, like, I was like, this wasn't clearly like, laid out, you know what I mean? And, yeah, and Pedro Pascal, who's fucking just a gym at the gym. I was kind of emailing him ahead of time, you know, like, you know, what do you think about this? Like, I don't know about this, this, this? And he's like, you're right, you're right. We'll talk about it when I got some. And so we just run out time, we're trying to work out the scenes to just make it make sense. And I remember we were shooting it. And we just, we had to put three cameras up this one on an 85, you know, one long and then the, you know, and just kind of just hose it down, which is not ideal, but I will say,

Alex Ferrari 37:46
I love that term. hose it down that first time I've heard hose it down before I love that.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 37:52
Yeah, but But in that chaos, because a lot of the times the chaos makes its way that energy into you know, and it's that classic thing. So I was sitting at I was like, Holy fuck, this is like, this is gonna be the fucking worst. And then, when I saw the editors assembly of it for the first time, I was like, Oh, hey, this works this way. And then we worked on it some morning, and it ended up being like, I'm actually one of the parts of the episodes that I really liked. So there you go. So they never know.

Alex Ferrari 38:25
Now what was, you know, what was the biggest lesson you learned working on Narcos, you know, as a director as a person as everything because I mean, that's a pretty, you know, Trial by Fire scenario. You know, you're kind of taught you were tossed into the deep end of the pool. On on one of the world's biggest television shows the second season coming back. So everybody was waiting to see what happens to Pablo. We all know what happens the Bible, but like, the story and everything. What was that? What was the biggest takeaway you had from that working on that first season?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 38:59
Mmm hmm. I mean, I guess. I mean, there's so much I'm trying to I'm trying to think trying to jump in the DeLorean. And what I was thinking, I mean, I mean, I think a big thing I learned is what I said earlier, is that when you jump to something bigger and scale, the every, you have more tools at your disposal, right, but the process is still the same, you know, and then again, the life in front of the cameras, that's what's the most important thing always. So I think that that after I did Narcos, it gave me a confidence in terms of like, knowing what's really important. And obviously, as I as that went on, as I continue to, especially in television, direct and television, you kind of you learn how to kind of dial in, what what you need to focus on because when everything is at your disposal, it's easy to get lost in like Oh my god, I can park and I can do a drone shot I can do this, you know, but but again the drama of life in front of the camera and what's what's the story and what's what does the characters want? And what are their obstacles and all that stuff is all that matters. It's the same. It doesn't matter what size production you're on.

Alex Ferrari 40:19
Yeah. And it's, it's good. It's like I know it's kind of like, It's like that old saying like, baseball is a simple sport. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball, and it's for for filmmaking. It's like there's an actor, there's a camera, there's a lens, and there's light, and, and a location and it could be 1000 million people on the set, or it could be just you and the actor, and you hit the record button. And you're doing everything. Yeah, as long as what's in front of the lens is impactful in the storytelling. That's all that really matters. One thing I think the Hollywood has kind of lost its way they have a lot of spectacle but at a certain point spectacle with Look, when we first saw Terminator two men, Terminator two had a lot of spectacle. But there's so much heart. So much heart so much story so much character in that movie. Jurassic Park, you watch it, you're like, oh my god, there's a dinosaur. No one's ever seen a dinosaur before. But the movie was good. The story was good. The characters were good. At a certain point spectacle were just like, like it really at this point. We're at this point in what we're as of this recording. How what else is there to be put on screen that's gonna make us just go. Oh, wow. Like,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:38
Video game lesson? Yes,

Alex Ferrari 41:40
Avatar, like the avatar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:42
Spectacle without drama is nothing, right. Like, it's so the reason why Terminator two is incredible is because the fuck ins the set pieces in the action are grounded in the dramatic experience of what the characters are going through. So it's not just spectacle for, for the sake of spectacle, you know? And I mean, yeah, I mean, this, we could talk about this for five hours. But yeah, movies now or I don't even know it. There's a lot of spectacle.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot like, there's a lot of spectacle, and we could talk about, you know, what's going on in Hollywood and all these kinds of things. But it's all you know, corporations have taken over and filmmakers aren't in control anymore to a certain extent. And then the UK and then you occasionally you know, give Marty $200 million to make something or you give, you know, James Cameron or you give Spielberg and you give these guys or PT or somebody a little bit of money to go off and do what they do. But I'm not seeing a lot of the new generation of those like, we're, we're still, we're still, we're still squeezing the juice out of the 70s 80s 90s and early 2000 filmmakers. But there really isn't. I mean, don't get me wrong there. Obviously, there's a lot of great new filmmakers like yourself and others. But you know, you know what I'm saying like, you know, people, when Quinton makes a movie, everyone shows up, you know, when Petey makes a movie, everyone shows up like licorice pizza, and you know, all these kind of stuff. But they're coming rare and rare, unless they're on Netflix.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:12
And listen, and like in those, all those people, all those great directors, Jane Campion, and all of them there, they're there, they been grandfathered in, you know what I mean? They're there, they came in a totally different generation. I mean, the conversations I have all the time with, like my colleagues that are filmmakers and stuff like that. It's just like, it's just totally different. Now, it's a totally different time you make your first feature. And, you know, you can you either, you know, you can become an episodic television director and manager, I'm not saying any of this is bad. Or you jump to like a $200 million. Huge movie,

Alex Ferrari 43:48
There's no in between.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:50
But, but the Yeah, like, it's just, I'm constantly fighting with myself, like, how do you? How do you differentiate yourself? How do you make yourself build a body of work? As a director, you know, and it's hard. I think it's just, I think it's a it's a, it's a harder time right now. But that's why I give a lot of props to like this podcast, and this whole idea of keeping the indie film flight going. Because I, what I always come back to is, we just got to make our movies, we just got to make our art, we got to make bold movies and take chances and like, look, the streaming wars in the void that they go into, yeah, I don't fucking you know, who knows how they're going to be seen. But if we don't make them, then we're really at a loss, you know, so I think just people gotta keep pushing through and trying to make their weird little indie films, and we need it more now more than ever, but like, yeah, the days of like, your film premiered at Sundance, and then you get a three picture deal. And like in the Weinstein Company, it's gonna, you know, give you 15 million to make your little drop. They don't make those movies anymore. You know, I mean, if it's a genre film Yeah, you have a chance like if it's a horror film, you know?

Alex Ferrari 45:03
Or an action. Yeah, yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 45:06
But you know, it's just we're in a I don't know. It's a totally different There is to be the next PTA I don't know. I don't know

Alex Ferrari 45:15
Why i mean look. I love I love to I love this is just to film geeks talking now. But you know like would if PT and Quinton show up today as 20 Somethings? Do they go into episodic? Is that is that the is that the route is that is that the route they go? Because they're not going to get you know you're not going to get but there's no way Pulp Fiction gets Produced by Studio. There's just no way it was barely. It barely got produced then because it was because of the because of Miramax. Miramax had to juice at the time it was it was a certain time period that those kind of films were being made. But no major studio was going to do Pulp Fiction. It was a it was read by a bunch of major studios and they didn't do it. Or Boogie Nights. Can you imagine doing a movie about pornographers in today's world, like, you know, or taxi driver? You know, try to get taxi driver made by Sony today, which is what who owns it? You can you imagine these kinds of films, these films don't get made anymore. It's very rare, rare for those to get made. And so many filmmakers now think that it's still the 90s. And they're making their films thinking that that's what's going to happen, like all I need to do is get into Sundance or South by or Tribeca. And I'm like, Nah, man, I've talked to all those guys and gals. It ain't no rainbows and butterflies, even if you can get that it's just, it's just not, you know, I'm

Josef Kubota Wladyka 46:41
There's way more competition now, man. So many filmmakers now. I mean, there's numerous filmmakers. I know that films that premiered at a huge festival and they still, you know, they still haven't gotten distribution, or if they do if it's some streamer, you know, they offer them like nothing, nothing, you know, like 5g and 5000 mg or something like, so it's a different time. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I don't know how we can. I don't know, again, like I said, I just I just gonna keep trying to fight the fight and keep trying to make my films and I'm very grateful and lucky that I have television to help pay my bills, and so on and so forth. Oh, so getting way back to the debt question. So long story short, so I did Narcos had all this debt. And then I was like, basically, I am gonna do I think I did. It was a really rough time, like six or seven. Anyway, I'm gonna do like seven episodes of television all in a row, and pay off all my debt at once. And that's what I did.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Yeah. God bless you, brother. I mean, listen. And the thing is that most filmmakers don't get that opportunity. You know, they don't get that chance to look, dude, I threw down 50 grand on my commercial demo reel, shot on 35. Back in the 90s. And I'm like, I've arrived. Everyone recognize my genius. And I sent my demo reel out. And it was it was a rough go for a bunch of years. And I wanted to dead. And you know, I wrote a whole book about the darkest time where I almost made a movie for the mob. And that whole time and that whole craziness that I did. But, you know, it took me a long time to be able to get back out of out of all the debt that I put myself in it might have not been film school debt, but it was just debt, trying to chase that dream. And I've had people on the show who've lost their house, you know, with families and things. So you've got to be smart about this dream. It's unfortunate that we have chosen an art form. That's probably one of the most expensive art forms on the planet. And I wish I could. Yeah, I wish I could. No, I wish I could just pick up a guitar. And I'd be like, Okay, I played for three or four hours today. I feel fulfilled. Like I wish I could do that. I wish I could draw, you know, but it's just not the not not mine. I got bit by that damn bug early on, and I can't get rid of it. Now it's stuck with me. Now I want I wanted to ask you about your new film. Catch the fair one, man. How did you because you wrote and directed it correct? Yes. How did you come up with like, how did that movie come to be? It doesn't seem like a film that everyone's jumping the throat $300 million at so how did you get the whole thing off? How did you get it off the ground? How did how did you come up with the script and everything?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 49:29
Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, again, we that a five year journey to get to get this this one made. And in between doing television I kept making sure chasing the dragon like I got to make my second film. I gotta keep fighting. I gotta keep fighting. So I actually the I wrote the script, but the story I came up with the lead in the film. Her name is Kaylee McLennan, ogg Reese, and she's a professional, indigenous world champion boxer. And I met her. When was this 2004 by viewers five years ago, I actually found her through social media through my friend's boxing gym. I myself was really getting into boxing, and I started following her. And, you know, I just, she's a great advocate and artist, and she uses her platform to touch on things that she wants, you know, to bring awareness to, and I was researching and studying and learning more about like the missing, murdered indigenous women epidemic in North in North America and all this stuff. So something in my gut just like reached out, I was like, I want to meet this person. So I reached out to her. I borrowed my friend's little for my front, my friends, Hyundai Sonata that barely works. I took my DSLR and I went up there, and I just spent started spending time with her started hanging out with her and telling her you know, I have an idea about this film about this, this woman who's you know, looking for, for searching for a sister and I want but you know, I want you to I want to see if one if it's something you would be interested in acting within? Can I just hang out with you? And, and she was, it was one of those things where it's similar to my first film where like, I drove up there at the time, she because she's a like, legit world champion boxer. She was she was training for a fight. So she had to go to the gym to train in Providence, Rhode Island, right? Big six bucks thing. So I was like, Can I just can I just go with you? Can I? Can I hang out with you while you go and bring my camera? She's like, Yeah, sure. So we go into this our typical boxing gym, right that has like, you know, all these jacked, sweaty dudes and like, checks champion, Golden Globe champions. They're dudes talking shit in the corner and everything. And you know, people are talking, She's the only woman in there people talking to her. And she's like, you want to go a couple rounds, whatever. She's like, Yeah, we could spar a little. And she takes her piercings out, she gets in the ring, and she just starts firing these dudes. And it was in that moment, the inexplicable thing of a filmmaker, I was filming and I was like, Alright, this is I don't know exactly what this movie is. But, uh, but there's no turning back, you know, we're gonna go on this journey. So cut to many, many years of us spending time together working together. She we developed the story together. I, for many years prepared to act in it. And yeah, and then we shot we shot this crazy film. And we shot it in 2019. Right before the right before the pandemic. So we literally finished it right at the end of 2019. And yeah, it was a you know, in terms of, you know, she's not she's not a star, it's the classic in the, you know, it's is the classic in the story, like we had to piecemeal and hustle to find the money to make the film. And we I'm not going to say how much but it was, you know, we didn't make the film for a lot of money. But I was lucky to have, you know, amazing producers on board with me. Two of which I went to film school with. I like I constantly try to keep working with my colleagues from film school, because I feel like that's really important. And yeah, you know, there was a lot of nose, there was a lot of ups and downs. There was a lot of I should just give up on this. You know, all that classic stuff.

Alex Ferrari 53:09
Oh, yeah. Like, like, that's the thing, too. I always love asking as well as like, how do you keep going, man? Because so many people listening right now have a project they've been trying to get along, I'll get off the ground that a lot of them probably are in year five right now. You know, it's take acne and I remember I was hustling my, you know, a couple of my projects for years. And it's like, how do you just keep going? How do you not get defeated? By all the nose? Because it's constant? No, it's It's constant nose? Yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 53:33
Well, that let's say, you know, one thing that so you know, I get inspired by real people. Right. And so, like, the one beautiful thing about making a film, and it's similar to how I made my first film. So for me, writing and dreaming the film before everyone gets invited over to your dinner table, you know, what I mean? Is is amazing. I love it. You're just dreaming the movie, you know, and and you haven't, you haven't gone out. And you know, started to ask people for money, all that stuff. So like, I love that part. Then when you transition, this is the part that I'm not, I don't love but it's necessary, right? Is when you have to turn into the used car salesman or whatever, whatever the fuck, right? And you have to start putting your film out there getting your script up there, you know, your deck and all that and you have to start getting nose, but not just nose, you get all the criticism and feedback and all that stuff. And so and then like, you know, time will just it just starts flying by you know, and then again to to stay afloat. I have to go do a couple episodes of television and then come back, you know, but I'm building this relationship with this real person. But what was for me, what I love about that process is at any moment during this time, which is like the worst for me is like finding the money basically up until you're greenlit and then you're going to go into pre production. At any moment. I can grab my kid, I could grab my camera. I could go meet up with Kaylee. I could Bring my friend who's an actor, and we could work on the scenes, you know, we could shoot these scenes, we could explore the scenes, we could change the script, you know, we could keep working on it. In for me, I realized, like, I think I do that subconsciously, because it makes me feel like I'm making it feels makes me feel like I'm making the film, even if it's like, no one is gonna, you know, this is just for us to explore. But I feel like I'm being a filmmaker, I have actors, I have a camera, and we're working on the material.

Alex Ferrari 55:27
Sure. So that kind of that kind of it makes you feel like you're doing something because you're working and you are doing something but you're not there just yet. But you're doing, you're working on it, you're bidding up the material, you're you're, you're putting the you're putting paint to Canvas, if you will, it might not be the big canvas you want but you're practicing essentially, which is that just

Josef Kubota Wladyka 55:47
It made me feel like I'm being a filmmaker, as opposed to just like a salesperson, you know, begging begging everyone to make your film which I said again, is a that is a necessary part of the process. But

Alex Ferrari 56:00
Unfortunately, it unfortunately it is my friend it is now after watching the film, and how did you stay sane as a filmmaker and as a creative making a film like this that's so dark. And it has so many dark scenes. And you know, the subject matters rough and there's the scene some of these scenes are just like, I just didn't want to be in the room, which is great as it's a testament to you as a filmmaker, because I'm just sitting here watching it. I'm just I don't want to be here. This is some some terrifying, I don't want to be here. How did you as a filmmaker and an artist, stay sane during that process? I see it for four minutes, but I know what it took to make those four minutes. So how do you stay sane during that process, man? Cuz you don't seem like a dark dude. Maybe you were working some stuff out jail? I'm not sure. But I mean, because when you first got when I first got on the call with you, I was like, this is not the guy expected. made this film. Like he seems like such a nice, well balanced dude. So I don't know how you made this film, dude.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 57:03
Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it was a lot through the collaboration with Kaylee. And, you know, it was it was one of the best artistic collaborations with with someone that I've worked with before, like, and I think like, you know, from very early on, when we were just talking about trying to make this film together and everything we in just the themes and stuff that it was touching on. And, you know, she has a lot of experience going around, and she's met people that's lost loved ones, and so on and so forth. And like, her perspective was so important to me. And, you know, she was like, it's got to be dark. You know, she, she, you know, she was like, We if we're gonna go into this world, and we're going to fictionalize it, and it's our artistic interpretation, well, then we got to fuckin, you got to kind of rattle the audience a little bit, you know, you gotta you got to make people feel uncomfortable. And then, of course, as a director, I think, you know, for me, just with the tools of being a filmmaker, when you're in there, constructing scenes that make the audience evoke something, you know, it can be you know, laughter can be as as gratifying. But also, you know, suspense and terror is also really, really fun using all the different tools using the sound using the music using how you shot it, you know what I mean? So, so yeah, but I will say it's been, I've lived with it, it's just been the next movie is very, very,

Alex Ferrari 58:34
It's a slapstick comedy. It's a it's a sequel, two, airplane. Got it. That's what you're doing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:40
Now I'm reading it now. And trust me, it is. It is very, very different. It's another film that will be impossible to finance. It is a 6060 year old Japanese woman who loves to dance ballroom dancing.

Alex Ferrari 58:51
Oh, that's huge. That's very high concept. Right? You'll be able to get to 300 million easy for that. What are you talking about?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:59
We keep fighting the fight? Right?

Alex Ferrari 59:01
That's great. And that's the insanity of what we do. I mean, that is the insanity of being in this business. And I joke about the I call it the beautiful sickness are the beautiful illness because that's what it is. We're, we're not Well, I mean, and artists aren't, you know, that's why we're not wired the same as everybody else, you know, and it's this, this compulsion to create that drives us in our lives, and it's something very difficult for people who aren't artists to understand.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 59:32
And it Oh, yeah, we're aliens to them.

Alex Ferrari 59:35
Yeah, it is. It is a compulsion. It's almost an act. It's a sickness. It's kind of like this thing that you just kind of keep doing it but it's beautiful in the same set in the same breath so that you're going after that storyline is awesome and I can't wait to watch that movie and, and you'll get you know, get and you'll get the financing for it and you'll get it made I you know, but I it's it's so Yeah, that's the funny thing too, you just finished a really difficult movie, you're like, instead of like, you know, picking maybe a little low fruit, like going a little, you know, just something like hanging like low hanging fruit that you might be able to pick off. Like, maybe I won't make the main character completely impossible to cast or fight. But you are as an artist you like, this is a story I want to tell. And that's powerful. That's a powerful, that's, that's a powerful.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:00:25
I mean, look, I grew up with, like, I grew up in a very diverse area with all different types of people. And, you know, it's wasn't the type of people that I was hanging out with my friends. And I, you know, it wasn't really in the movies and on TV, you know. So it was just one of the first things I said, when I became a filmmakers, that's one thing that I'm always gonna try to do is just, is just to put, you know, more diverse people in leads, you know, and because once you do it, then people will be more open to once they see a movie, you know, with someone, then it's, they're more open to, and then we can continue to keep making movies, you know, it just opens up everything. And it's, like I said, it comes back to just making stuff. You just gotta, you just gotta make, you just got to make this stuff. And yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
I was running. I was I remember running around town, with with my project, and it had a female lead as an action star. And people like, nobody wants to see an action star an action movie with with female lead. Nobody wants to see that. And I'm like, Guys, can you please I mean, and then Kill Bill came out. And then and then slowly, but surely, hey, women could be badass, too. It's but that's just the, you know, it's just, it's just the world we live in. But let's, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01:50
Mm hmm. Hmm. Yeah. It's tough because I still feel like I'm very inexperienced in green. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:06
But, enough, fair enough.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:02:09
I would say there's a few things I'm thinking but I would say don't get caught up in the result. Enjoy, and embrace the process. I think when I was younger, and I was starting out, I was just fixated on the end result of my short film that would then get into some huge festival, and just thinking about all the stuff that it could do for me, but that's not the real work, the real work is being present and working through the process. So I think, gum, you know, it's easy to get fixated, especially now with like, I mean, it's so hard now because like, with, like social media and all this stuff in like, houses, who's gonna see your movie? And is it going to be? Is it ever going to get distributed and I those are valid things to think about. But if you really want to do it, you got to just not think about that. And you got to make the film because I mean, how many filmmakers do you know that have been talking about making their first film for years and years and years? And I think what happens is when you're thinking too much about the result of things that paralyzes them and then they look they don't make anything, you know what I mean? So you got to be an artist and you got to make second piece of advice I would say is you gotta you got to experience life to a certain extent you have to you know, fall in love get your heart broken, go travel to backpack to South America, like I did go learn a language, see the world, Rabobank, whatever it is, kind of mess up your life a little gain some experience, because your perspective and your point of view, when you're directing is kind of, it always falls back on that, you know, it's going to come through subconsciously. So the more life that you've experienced, the more you understand other people and human behavior. It's just the stronger and more empathetic in, I think, filmmaker he'll be so I think you gotta, you know, obviously make your movies make all your stuff, but you know, don't just sit in your apartment all day get. And it's ironically, it's horrible to say now, because that's what I've been struggling with that you can't fucking go anywhere, you know, the pandemic. It's like, you know, I'm a I'm a drifter, man, you know, and I was, I was lucky enough, I just shot for seven months in Japan, this television show during the pandemic, which was really hard, but in retrospect, I was so grateful for it, because otherwise I'd just be sitting here in my studio apartment for six months. So yeah, sorry, sorry, I went on a long tangent

Alex Ferrari 1:05:00
No worries, no worries. No, but I agree with you so many times young filmmakers, the first movies they put out are just basically rehash stuff that they've seen. And that's what you do as an artist. When you first start, you know, you draw, you draw what you've seen, or you paint what you've seen you play music of the music you listen to, that's how art starts, but you have to find that voice. And that voice is found by living. Not my job, not robbing a bank, but everything else you said. Joking. Hey, man, we we live in weird times, brother, we live in weird weird times. But I agree with you, 100% it's that you, you have to live and, you know, I'm getting you know, I'm 47. So I've been around the block a little bit, I got a lot of shrapnel in me. And I remember the stuff that I was writing when I was in my 20s I'd look at it now. I'm like, this is this, this is no idea what he's talking about. Like he could tell right away where I was my mindset there. And as you live life a bit more you become a more more, you know, fully formed soul that you can actually put into your work. And some people have that liquid some people have that right off the bat and they're masking their their anomalies, you know, but others Exactly. But you can't you can't and everyone listening, you cannot compare yourself to masters. You cannot compare yourself to Talentino like, oh, I can't write when I quit, and nobody can write like quit no one can write life's work. And no one can write like Shane Black. Like these guys are, who they are. And don't feel bad. Just like I can't make I can't write music like Mozart. Like don't feel bad, man. It's okay.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:06:40
Let me tell you, I have a little posted up on my wall. Here's what it says. Comparison is the thief of all joy. So you can't if you compare yourself to all these other filmmakers in every every video, every filmmaker does it. person made their first feature when they were like 26 and then it

Alex Ferrari 1:07:00
It starts with it starts with Orson Welles at 23 Then you're like, Okay, how old was Spielberg? Okay, so

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:07
But then what ends up happening is like I said, all that all that sort of going down those rabbit holes, all it does is paralyze you and you don't make your stuff. So I think another thing that this all ties into is like you're saying, it all comes down to patience as well because you want it all at once. You know, you want it you want to break through. And it's a it's a long journey.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:32
It is man it is it's it's a it's a miracle that anything ever gets done. It truly is. But we love it because we're crazy. And that's the way that is our plight in life is to be artists and filmmakers. And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, oh man of today of today of today.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:54
Oh, yeah, every you could tell me this question tomorrow and it could be three different films. I would say one that's always on the top of my list is Milos Foreman's Amadeus. That's so good. One of my all time all time favorite films. My mom had it on LaserDisc. For me, my brothers used to watch the tone of it. It's hilarious. F Abram Murray performance is incredible. The production design, it's just such a watchable film like and I love films that have a lot of music involved in them into the editing and visual language. And that's a film where it just blends everything. So well. And I also love classical music. So that's, that's one of my all time favorites. Mmm hmm. It's tough to stop. I think my old time one sock film would be Goodfellas. Yeah, you know what the one sock fit what it wants to film is?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
No, I don't know what a one sock film is. What is the one sock film?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:02
Oh, okay. So I might be quoting this wrong. But so I don't remember when this was but at some point, I think it was Guillermo del Toro, I could be wrong. He tweeted or wrote that that was the film. I think he was saying Zodiac was a one sock film. And then he explained what it once I've done it so once I film is your TV's on, right, movies on you're getting ready to leave, right and you're putting all your clothes on. Right? And then you put one sock on and you're watching the movie and then you just sit there with one sock on and watch the rest of the movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:35
Great. That's awesome. Goodfellas is a one sock film.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:39
Yes. Without question Goodfellas is my one sock movie because it doesn't matter where I am. I just watch it. And when I'm on a flight in there's all these other movies that I should watch. I usually just watch Goodfellas. And again, I think you know, the energy and the filmmaking that Scorsese the language he uses it Just so watchable you know, I mean, there's just the energy to it that like, sure it's It's low. And then third film. I don't know. I feel like I have to do like something classic problem. Do whatever you want it.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:14
Oh, great. We'll talk. Yeah, talk. Your story's amazing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:17
I got some love to the Japanese. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:21
My friend it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today man. I know we can geek out for another two, three hours but I appreciate you coming on the show man. Listen to continued success. When does your the new film come out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:32
So IFC is distributing it much love the ISC. Thank God. It's been amazing working with them. It comes out February 11. There it will be in theaters and on VOD at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
Fantastic.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:47
And certain cities, they're still I think they're still figuring out all of the exact cities and you know, but yeah, February 11.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:54
I appreciate you brother. Continued success, man. And thank you for thank you for taking me down the journey with you, man. It was fun.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:11:01
Thank you. I really, really appreciate it.

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BPS 353: How to Make an Indie Film Against All Odds with Tzvi Friedman

February 8, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

As filmmakers we all have challenges to make our films. Today’s guest had to deal with obstacles that most of us would never have to. We have on the show filmmaker Tzvi Friedman and he has on heck of a story to tell.

Tzvi is a writer and director based in NYC. He was born and raised in an ultra-religious community where almost all cinema was contraband. Growing up he secretly watched countless movies under his covers and sneaking off to the cinemas. At 18 he started making films, becoming a social outcast, but that didn’t stop him.

He has since directed multiple short films. At 21 he crowdfunded $10,000 dollars and made his first feature Man.

Tortured by his inability to feel emotional or physical pain, a man finds murder to be his only respite – until he meets a lonely woman whose compassion awakens something inside.

After he finished shooting the film, by some miracle, veteran producer Cary Woods (Swingers, Scream, Godzilla, and Rudy) discovered his film and jumped on as an executive producer to help Tzvi finish the film.

Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Tzvi Friedman.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome the show. It's the Tzvi Friedman, how're you doing?

Tzvi Friedman 0:15
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I'm doing good brother. I'm doing good, man. Thank you for coming on the show, like we were talking about earlier, before we got on the air is I get, I get hit up almost 20 30 times a day now. Without question by filmmakers wanting to be on the show. And I try to make I try to make as much room as I can. But at a certain point, we can't hear the same story again and again and again. You know, like, you know, I've made my movie for 5000 bucks. That's great. And if it was 1991, I'd probably have you on the show much faster. But your story actually kind of has a very unique, it has a few unique elements to it. So we're going to get into that as well. But can you tell the audience a little bit? Because you were talking earlier. You've you found me. You've been listening to me for a little while. So how did you find me? And and how have I been able to even help you? On your on your path?

Tzvi Friedman 1:04
Yeah, sure. So basically, you know, when I decided to get into filmmaking, I knew right away, I wasn't going to do the college route, the film school route, for various reasons. So you know, YouTube, to me was sort of the, you know, wealth of information. Everything is on YouTube nowadays. And you can also listen to various channels, and one of them was Indie Film Hustle. I mean, I have a lot of friends who listened to you and all your channel, you know, pretty popular among us some, uh, we call the underground filmmakers. So, yeah, so we just listened to it. And I also saw your evolution, which is pretty wild. You know, like, I remember, you were talking to, you know, sort of like mid level producers and directors and now you're talking to Oliver Stone. And you know, it's pretty, pretty crazy. And congratulations to that.

Alex Ferrari 1:53
Thank you know, I've been I've been very, I've been very humbled and blessed to be be speaking to the people I've been speaking to lately. And it's been, it's, it's been humbling to say the least, man. And it's, I'm glad and a lot of my audience have heard just told me that they're like, man, I've seen you when I was there at the beginning, when you were just talking to like, you know, you know, just young filmmakers. And now you're, you're talking to, you know, legends and things. And it's been very, I look, man, if I can get any information out of those guys, and gals, and bring it to the underground filmmaker, to an independent filmmaker who didn't have the opportunity to sit down for an hour to talk to I would I want to, I want to be able to do that. So, but thanks, man, I'm glad. I'm glad I've been of service to you on your journey. And I always find it fascinating how you how people find me, and like and how it you know, because I don't get to talk to people often. You know, listeners I generally, and you see them at a film festival every once in a while. So how did you get started in the business? Man, what made you want to jump into this ridiculous business?

Tzvi Friedman 2:55
Was a good question. I don't know if I made the right choice no I'm kidding. Um, it wasn't really like that. It wasn't really so much of a business. And like most of us, you know, it was, um, you know, I was obsessed with movies from a very young age, I didn't really know that somebody made movies, you know, you don't realize that there's like, somebody orchestrating the, you know, the story. I'm actually I think I wanted to be an actor to tell the truth on way back like that. Like, I think that I wanted to be in the movies. That's all I wanted. From a pretty young age. And then I'm not sure exactly when I realized that there was a director, I think it might have been a mini doc about the making of Lord of the Rings. And I remember seeing Peter Jackson, it was like two in the morning or something. It might have been the hobbit I'm not sure. Anyways, and he's driving to like, pick up the DP or something. And just like the whole vibe, and the whole, you know, they're all joking around. And I think that might have been, you know, when I started to realize that there was this one guy, you know, there's puppeteer, basically. Um, and then I just became obsessed with the concept of the director, you know, and, yeah, yeah. So

Alex Ferrari 4:03
I remember I remember in The Lord of the Rings, Docs, this is when the First Lord of the Rings came out, that he released that same DVD set that just had like seven hours or 10 hours of like, how they made it on each movie. And the one thing I always never forgot is that he had his, he had his crew carry around a lazy boy. And that was his director's chair. Like a recliner, like a full not like a director's chair. He like how to full recliner and they would just carried around from set to set, and he would sit there and he do everything and then he get up. I was like, why hasn't that become a thing? I have no idea.

Tzvi Friedman 4:41
Well that's Peter Jackson though, you know,

Alex Ferrari 4:43
If you're Peter Jackson, and you've already released the first Lord of the Rings, I think you can get away with this stuff. By the way, everyone listening. If you're an independent filmmaker, do not I repeat, do not bring a recliner on set and say it's your director's chair. People will hate you

Tzvi Friedman 5:00
Yeah. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, just about the director's chair. I remember, you know, my first few short films, I never sat down, you know, just sure the whole time adrenaline rush. I remember seeing Roger Corman, you know, very some interview of his not too long ago, he must have been pretty sure he's still alive, right?

Alex Ferrari 5:21
Yes, he is still alive.

Tzvi Friedman 5:24
And he was saying how, you know, asking, like directors advice, and you think he's gonna talk about lenses and whatever, or whatever it might be. And he says, just make sure to have a chair to sit down. And you know, that was his. That was his advice.

Alex Ferrari 5:38
I spoke to a steady cam, I think that the inventor of the steady cam, and he goes, What's the best piece of advice for anybody who wants to learn a steady game, and he's like, good shoes. Comfortable shoes is the biggest piece of advice. Now, tell me a little bit about your background, before you jumped into filmmaking? Because from what you told me in your email, you know, filmmaking is not really looked nice, very positively by your family. So how did what would that? Because that what are the struggles you had to deal with with that?

Tzvi Friedman 6:12
Yeah, so you know, I'll speak vaguely a little bit, because I don't want to get into much rattled, but I'm sure but basically, I come from a religious community or ultra orthodox community, Jewish community. And I think like a lot of very far right, religious communities. That's a far right, I don't mean politically far out, I mean, religiously, very conservative. They have a weird relationship with movies in general, and with Hollywood business, just the concept of Hollywood, Hollywood is sort of the Boogeyman. For a lot of people, in my community, and on Yeah, it's a, I think, um, a lot of it has to do with, you know, Hollywood sort of was the, the front runner of the, you know, counterculture revolution. And I think a lot of it started there, you know, a lot of, you know, just the way, Hollywood, you know, the sexuality in Hollywood, you know, 60s and on, you know, Rebel Without a Cause all these movies, you know, were seen as a threat to, to religious communities and to my community. So that's part of the part of it is like, so Hollywood's this big, scary thing. And there's a lot of immorality there and things like that. Um, and then, yeah, I think that's, that's really what it is. So in my family really was the same thing. You know, modern movies, I wasn't able to see Star Wars or Pirates of the Caribbean and stuff that's, you know, pretty much tailored for kids even that, you know, because there's a fear that it has traces of, you know, either ideologies that disagree with the religion, you know, postmodern idea, and things like that, or, you know, explicit scenes and, you know, stuff like that. So, um, so that's basically where I come from.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
So alright, so then you you see a little film called Star Wars. What happens after you see Star Wars? By the way, you're not the only one who saw Star Wars and like, James Cameron did that too. So that you're in good company that Star Wars changed your life.

Tzvi Friedman 8:19
Yeah, I hope that was unique, but I guess, not so much. Yeah, no. So So I had a neighbor who was, you know, also religious, but more modern than me. His parents were more chilled, so they let him see a lot of stuff. And he would just rant and rave about Star Wars. And I didn't know anything about it. But I just, I just knew I had to see this thing. He had the toy lightsaber, he had like, video games. So I just, um, yes, I just looked it up one day on my dad's computer. And I saw a new hope in like, parts, I'm pretty sure at one time, if not the whole thing, or part of it was just on YouTube. This is, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago, whatever it is. Um, so I saw the first the first Star Wars and, and, you know, I think I always had my mom would read us, like science fiction and books. So it's not that I you know, I, I knew about these worlds, but only in my head. Sure. And then when I saw Star Wars, the first time I actually saw it on a screen that that in movies, people are able to do this, they're able to, you know, create these crazy fantasies and these worlds and it was as simple as that. It just, you know, it was it was like the Big Bang for me, you know, it was Yeah, and I just became obsessed with Star Wars and playing Star Wars with my brothers and having lightsaber fights and stuff and right so I think the Star Wars obsession really was like the story of the bug that bit me you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:45
Yeah, the as I as I like to call it the beautiful disease, or the beautiful infection that is filmmaking, one because once you get it, you can't get rid of it. No matter how hard no matter how hard you try, or no matter what obstacles are up and to be in your way. It's something you just have to do. Just have to do. So which brings me to your first movie, man. How did you you know living in the in the environment that you were living in not getting much support I'm assuming from your family or community? How did you generate the not only the energy to make it but to find the money for it and all that whole thing? So how did that whole process come along?

Tzvi Friedman 10:24
I didn't know I didn't dumb and think as you can see.

Alex Ferrari 10:28
You look, you look as you look as old as I am. And I'm joking!

Tzvi Friedman 10:35
Oh, yeah, it's so basically trying to get the timeline. Right. So basically, I went to Israel, actually, I went to study in Israel, you know, on the hopes of becoming like a big rabbi or whatever. And it was a very intense thing. It was a good experience. But it just didn't work out for me. A lot of good friends who went there to study. But I was a movie addict, the movie junkie, like, that's how I got through high school. Like, you know, there was a time where I was dorming. And in a very serious religious school where, you know, if they would catch you with watching a movie, you were thrown out. And we just watched movies under our covers, literally, I remember seeing Schindler's List in my dorm room on a tiny phone, you know, for the first time,

Alex Ferrari 11:17
I'm sure, Stephen, I'm sure Stephen exactly how he wants you to watch it.

Tzvi Friedman 11:20
So, so basically, so basically, when I came back, I got a job as an assistant teacher in a school. But it was just a soul crushing job. And, and I just had this, you know, like, buzzing my ear, like this little whisper in my ear. And then eventually, um, and then I had a friend who passed away, sadly, and, and right before he passed away, I was talking to him about I want to be a director, you know, and he came from the similar we grew up together, went to school together. But he, but at the time, he became more open minded and everything. And we both we saw a Goodfellas we saw, like all the classics together, I saw Goodfellows in his grandmother's basement, you know? So, you know, he was very positive about it. And he said, You know, I think you should do this, and then he, and then he literally died a week later. So, yeah, he was, he was an incredible guy would do dinero impressions and all this. So. So that really compelled me, I think, like, I remember being at his funeral and his burial. And I just felt really angry. And I just decided, like, I'm just gonna try to do this, you know. So I basically, um, you know, I had this idea for a short film. Turns out the short film was gonna cost like, $100,000 to make, you know, that's how it goes. And you first start, you write a script, it was like a mixture of Blade Runner and all these different things. And, and I remember, like, I went online, I was looking for a producer, and I found some girl on Upwork I don't remember one of these things. I wanted the, you know, the film sites. And she said, Yeah, well, I'll produce it, you know, so I meet with her, she said, Oh, first we have to make a trailer, you know, like a sizzle reel, or whatever, to raise money through Indiegogo. So basically, we ended up getting $2,000 from this. Basically, I used to work with special needs children. So there was a kid I was taking care of, and his dad was like a big fan of this movie obsession of mine. So he gave me like $2,000 cash on the spot for the trailer. Amazing. So we made this trailer. And it was an utter disaster. I mean, it just didn't work out and we raised like $100 is like my older brother who gave them money you know, like on Indiegogo was pretty embarrassing. So then, you know, it was like back to square one again. I'm like, How in the world is this gonna happen? It just is, you know, the trailer was pretty good, I think but it just didn't fly. It just didn't work out. And then I remember I was watching Vice News did a thing on Christopher Nolan's following they interviewed him about zero budget and I was watching his advice and he basically said just take a camera you know the the thing that they say but to me the thing about him certain filmmakers you could see like you could tell they sort of come from the underground world but here's the guy who made inception and all these things. And then I saw a following and it's this real you know guy yeah, like glued together you know with popsicle sticks or whatever it's a brilliant film brilliant but um, but it just it's It's unbelievable to see that he went from there to there. So I basically he did it advice I took a camera I shot a short film you know, I only money was to the camera and stuff into the makeup artist. And I felt it was okay you know like I put it out there some people liked it. Some people didn't. But um, but that's that's basically how it starts just kept making short films. Then I produced a short film for this thing called the indie film collective. I was an interesting experience. And then we made another short film. And then just over time making all these short films, I picked up a very small following on the internet. I mean, when I say small film, I like maybe 10 15 People, whatever it is, but it was enough that at a certain point, I just decided it's time to make a feature film. And, you know, and I kept trying to make feature films or like trying to get or get it off the ground, but it just never worked, you know, and my older brother, he's a pretty well to do successful business guys completely self made. And he just said, you have to you don't be embarrassed, just have to ask people, you know, and again, you know, where I'm from. People don't really know what that like, there's no such thing as somebody's going to make movies. It's, it's bizarre, you know,

Alex Ferrari 15:32
I know the feeling. I know the feeling.

Tzvi Friedman 15:34
Yeah. It's what the other people do, you know, like, it doesn't it's not a real profession that could ever happen. So I think I was at my friend's engagement party, or, you know, ultra orthodox engagement party, and I just summed up the cards, and I just started asking people upfront, I said, you know, could I have money for my movie? And they're like, You're movie what? You know, and I think I quickly explained why I was like, trembling. Yeah, making a movie, you know, and then Christopher and all I can just try to explain to them, and a lot of the guys there that just very kind people very generous and said, whatever, let the kid go do his high school play or whatever they were doing, you know, we I raised like, $800 to $1,000, literally that day, just from asking people, you know, just basically bullying people to giving me money. And then with that seed money, we I joined forces with a friend of mine, and we basically started raising money online crowdfunding on Indiegogo. And we raised like, $8,000 that way, and I put in another 1000 of my own, and we basically managed to get the budget together. Um, but yeah, but there was no, it wasn't easy. Let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 16:38
So so then when you get the movie done, then you're now and you basically got it in the can. But from what you told me, you basically, were kind of kicked out of your house, and you were like, sleeping on the floor on a couch with your sister. You know, we all have struggles as filmmakers, man like there's no question this is you're trying to get your feature. May we all got a bag, we get a bag and you know, sometimes steel. Do whatever you got to do to get the movie done. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's the insanity of being a filmmaker, but, but you have the extra stress of also not having a place to live in at this point. And all that stuff. How did you break through that man? How did you break? Because I've never experienced that. I always was curious.

Tzvi Friedman 17:21
Yeah, yeah. So. So also, throughout the shooting, we shot once a week. So I was shooting once a week. And when I'm shooting, I feel like you know, you feel you, you're on top of the world when you're shooting.

Alex Ferrari 17:30
Oh, yeah, it's a drug, it's a drug. Absolutely.

Tzvi Friedman 17:33
It's a drug your high, you know, and then I would come home and not, you know, my siblings are amazing, you know, my brothers, they're very supportive and stuff, you know, but I don't blame nobody, you know, like, how are they supposed to know what the hell I'm doing? I you know, and it's not just, it's not just a religious thing. A lot of parents aren't, you know, regardless, any, anything in the arts is insane. So I would come home, I come back here, and they'd be like, you know, there was, you know, you're kind of like a rock star when you're directing. And then you come home and it's like, you know, you it's like, coming back to the slums. You know, you're, you're, it's like a descent. So it was really pressing, in a way it was like, swinging between these different worlds. And, yeah, and then. So the shooting itself was, there was a lot of a lot of stress in not just the production, but just the, like this dichotomy or duality that I was dealing with, going from basically sinning, you know, doing the grave sin of right, you know, making movies, which is this again, like, sort of, like, taboo satanic thing, and then and then coming home and you know, whatever, participating in the Sabbath and all this stuff, and then yeah, then we finished we wrapped shooting, it wasn't the most satisfying production, you know, again, it's, it's the first feature film, sure it for a penny. And then I come home and, you know, I'm again, I don't want to tell tell you too much about I'm sure. Basically, it's a combination of, you know, I wasn't I didn't have a proper income. You know, I didn't really I wasn't making money didn't have a real you know, my parents were very worried about me, you know, I didn't have a career path. And then again, it's the movies it's all these things coupled together. And I basically just pissed off enough people and they were like, you know, it sparks flew and I basically was told nicely to leave and I went to my older sister, you know, who was living in Queens and I just I was just sleeping in her husband study on a mattress on the floor. And it wasn't that bad though. They were pretty good to me and all and um, but I was really desperate to get a job you know, it was kind of like the Wake Up Calls like alright, this movie dream probably is not going to work you know, I made this movie wasn't edited at all. We didn't caught it just a bunch of hard drives at this point. It was just hard drive just sitting there my editor Christian who works for complex media who I met a whole different story but he edited all my shorts basically. He put together a trailer for me and a reel because I you know I call I'm like frantically saying I'm doomed. And he was, he's always been like, he's my right hand, man, you know, like, it's not for him, I wouldn't be anywhere. So he was really supportive. He's like, I'll make you a real don't worry about it, he made me reel made me a trailer. And I put it into a resume and I just started applying to film jobs, because I didn't want to go back to being an assistant teacher, whatever it might be. Um, and, and I went to Mandy, my older brother, I was so broke, I didn't have like, $1, you know, filmmaker. So my older brother, he paid for my Mandy subscription, you know, for like, a month. And I'm just applying to like everything in the world, you know, Pa D, should I remove old picture, low budget horror movie and all this stuff. And I applied to maybe 3040 things or whatever it might have been. And then I applied to a director gig like a horror movie director gig. And of course, you know, that would, that would have been great, you know. And then like, a week later, I got a call from some guy, the producer of this horror movie. And he's like, is this three Friedman? I'm like, yeah. And he says, um, you know, I saw your resume or whatever, why don't you come down and let's, let's have a chat, whatever, let's get lunch, whatever it was. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get the job. You know, I'm so desperate now, at this time at this point. And I remember it's snowing, freezing cold, I go out there. And like, a second I meet the guy, he's like, you know, I don't think you're the right fit for the job. And I'm like, Oh, great. Another one of these, you know? Yeah, meeting time. Um, and then he says, but um, I saw the trailer for your feature, I saw some of your shorts, and I really like it. And I sent your work to my friend Cary Woods. I have no idea what that is. But again, this guy, this guy, you know, he thinks he assumes I know, you know, like, he doesn't realize like, you know, where I'm coming from, you know, that I've no, you know, connection with the business whatsoever. And he's like, he wants to he really wants to meet you. So when I leave the meeting, I call up my editor, Christian, and I say, Oh, my God, this guy. He said, Cary Woods his whole thing was I looked up, I Googled Cary Woods right after, and I saw his credits. Um,

Alex Ferrari 21:52
He's a legend. He's a legend. Yeah.

Tzvi Friedman 21:54
Yeah. And Christian, my editor. Again, I love him. This is to disparage him, but he just was like, come on. And you know, you because you know, people, he's been in the business much longer than me. And he's in a much more professional, severe. And he's had horror stories. So he was like, you know, I wouldn't just don't get don't get your hopes up.

Alex Ferrari 22:13
Right. I would say the exact same thing if you were talking to me.

Tzvi Friedman 22:16
Yeah. And like, I waited for like, a week, I was like, should I call back this guy and ask him and like, I was waiting with my phone. They're like, you know, and then I get a call from this producer again. And he said, Why don't you come over Friday evening, for dinner with carry, he'll be there, you know? So I go, there I go, I go to this, like penthouse again, like, you know, I didn't grow up poor or anything, but you know, just regular middle class. Sure. Family, five siblings, a, you know, everybody that lives very simply where I come from, and all of a sudden, I'm in this, you know, crazy apartment. And there's Carrie, and he looks like right out of his Wikipedia page. You know, it's a little weird. I was like, I kind of thought, you know, but, um, and, you know, like, we didn't really talk March, you know, I didn't, I didn't try to sell myself or anything. But it was it was weird to be in a place where like, everybody was filmmakers. on a on a slightly high end on a slightly in a much higher level than me all in the business. And who appreciated my work, which is really surreal. For that's a cool experience Yeah, it was, it was also like another type of high, you know, like, I was used to always feeling guilty about my work. And, you know, at one time, I would show it to my work to my parents, but they just didn't understand it. They thought it was bizarre. You know, and, you know, my dad would watch very, my dad has a good taste in movies, but it was more very conventional, very formulaic classics. And here, I'm trying to make like a button. Well, weird, experimental, right? Yeah. And he's like, you know, what's with the hands, or whatever, you know, so getting that or even my religious friends who love movies, but like thing, like, they want to watch like Michael Mann's heat or something. They're not, you know, sure. Are all French movies. Um, so basically, yeah, so that was a really great feeling. And then a few days later, Cary texted me said, Hey, let's get let's get coffee or something. And we got coffee. And you know, we just talked movies, and he has all kinds of crazy Hollywood stories. You know, your hero complex is Robert De Niro. So in Marvel, here's my favorite actor. So we spoke about that he worked with Warner Hertzog on Playboy, just endless stories. And he also was an agent before he was a producer, you know, so he's all kinds of stories about that. And then what I don't remember exactly the timeline, I don't want to distort the facts. But but more or less, he basically called me up one day and he said, Hey, I'll help you. I'm going to try to help you finish your feature film. I'll see if I can get some investors and whatever. Um, and, and yeah, that like my, you know, you can imagine I was like in seventh heaven. Um, and then we got investors. He got me a lawyer. And then he actually connected with this unbelievable film producer Jonathan Gray, who's an indie film producer. or also did a bunch of pretty flannel pajamas and blue capris, and you name it, he did a lot of very critically acclaimed films Dark Knight, not the Dark Knight Dark Knight, which went to Sundance couple years ago. And he basically became a producing partner with carry on this film. And he gave us an office at his studio, gigantic Studios, which was insane. Just like Monster just squatting there. And me and Chris Christian and I, my editor. We just were coming there and I was able to pay Christian finally, and I never paid him in my life. Am a few dollars, you know, that was nice. And yeah, that's a sort of the story in a nutshell. I don't know. I'm just wow, man.

Alex Ferrari 25:40
That's that's that's a pretty remarkable story. Because that was the twist that that also added another layer to this onion, that is your stories, because like, you know, trying to get your movie made all this kind of stuff. But then all of a sudden getting a major producer like Carrie woods on board, who's a legend. He's an indie film Legend. I mean, from swingers to kids, and so many other movies he's made over the years, you know, to get him on board with essentially a first time filmmaker, I was fascinated by how the hell did this happen. I always love these little stories of how people connect and how things fall apart, fall into place. And it's just luck being at the right place, right time. Like, in what I don't want people listening to understand this is that there is no path that you can copy. You know, I wasted a good decade trying to figure out how to copy Kevin Smith pass or Robert Rodriguez's path, or Ed burns path like these, these guys, you can't can't copy their path because their paths are unique to them. So the time frame when that happens, so you place an ad, go for an interview, they happen to watch your short a I have a friend of like there's so many things that were magical,

Tzvi Friedman 26:54
It insane, insane.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
It's luck. It's luck. But if you didn't have all those shorts, if you didn't have a trailer, if you hadn't had a movie, ready in the can, nobody would have it, this wouldn't have happened. So it's it is truly when luck meets preparation. And that's exactly your story. It's It's pretty. It's a pretty magical story. So now, where are you with the movie? You're still finishing it up in post, so you're getting ready to put it out to the festivals.

Tzvi Friedman 27:22
Yeah, so we are we already submitted to a bunch of festivals, but it's still a quote unquote working progress. We're doing the music now. That's where we're at now. So we're picture locked, we're doing the music, literally, like we just started yesterday. And also the color which we're basically finished. Um, and yeah, we're just we're just trying you know, you know, nowadays you have you know, it's not like it used to be now you have literally 10s of 1000s of films, you know, everybody with their $100,000 movie. There's just a lot of competition it's very easy to get lost in the pile. Um, and yeah, it's it's really it's sort of playing a lottery you know that a day.

Alex Ferrari 28:05
Yeah, it's it's pretty in you know, if you've listened to the show, and you've seen the show, you know, I've talked about distribution and how to get your movie up there and stuff. It is very difficult to get an independent film with no you have no stars if I'm a mistake you have no faces are stars in the movie.

Tzvi Friedman 28:20
We have some future stars I'm on my right to say that to be nice. We, particularly the main actor in our movie. On time, he was on the Broadway show, cabaret. Sam Mendez is a production but he's a brilliant actor. Brilliant. His name's John Peterson. A shout out to John Baba he he's really remarkable you know, these series that we've been showing the movie to now like we you know, we're showing it to all sides forever they're all like wow you know so the thing is if Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 28:52
Yeah so but but as far as distribution is concerned, yeah. Yeah, if I walk into distributors room and like, Hey, I got a lot of future starts it's gonna be like, get the hell out of here. But no, but not not lack of talent, but lack of star power means recognizable faces. Right? So without that it is difficult to do it unless you can a kid into a film festival that could be you know, that likes it and gets some awards and maybe get some attention. But you know, it just as a non it's an you haven't asked me for this advice, but this is what I would do. I would use Kerry Woods his name as much as he allows you to use it to open doors for you because that name does carry a lot of weight in the indie film space. And that they're like, wait a minute, if Kerry's executive producing this guy's film, I should maybe watch it because of his track record. So you've got an ace in the hole without question. It's not gonna help you it might help you a little bit in distribution but it will definitely help you in the film festival circuit without Question

Tzvi Friedman 29:55
Yeah, there you know, I got like, I don't know how what I'm allowed to say but like you

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Don't Don't say I don't want to get in trouble don't get in trouble.

Tzvi Friedman 30:02
Exactly. I don't either want to get in trouble but no definitely carry but not again, not just Cary we have, we have a lot of the Cary sort of built an army around the

Alex Ferrari 30:10
Right. So um, it's amazing that he, it's amazing that a producer of his magnitude who's done so many films over the years, still is hunting for that, you know that diamond in the rough. It just trying to grab something and trying to help a filmmaker along and that's another part of the story that I love is that someone like him is not too high up in the mountain. We're all the gods, the filmmaking gods live, like mountain Olympus, you know, where Spielberg and Lucas and all those guys live? That they're able that he's still willing to to do because it doesn't have to mean he's completely doesn't have to do anything. But he wants to because he loved the process so much and wants to help young voices come out. So that's a really, that's a really pretty awesome part of the story. So I'll gotta get Carrie on the show. One day, I want to talk to Carrie.

Tzvi Friedman 31:04
Thank you. I think you do it. Yeah. Yeah, he's, he's just a really, I mean, you know, I don't know why he decided to do this. You'll have to ask him.

Alex Ferrari 31:14
You're like, Man, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know how this happened.

Tzvi Friedman 31:19
Kind of like, you know, the movie being there. Which is actually when it carries favorite movies. Oh, yeah. Oh, I love the colors. Yeah, just like he's just like this, you know, um, I think he's supposed to be on the spectrum, if I'm not mistaken. And he's just, just like, stumbling into you know, power, you know, the powerful people and and all these rooms, and you're just like, whoa, what am I doing here? And I get that all the time. You know, like, I'll be at an like, again, like, once you meet these people, all of a sudden, you're at these events. And also, you're meeting these people who somebody people inspired you to, like, do this thing now. And you're just, it's bizarre, and you're not sure and they ask you like, who are you? And you're like, I'm not sure who I am. But um, you know, security? Yeah. But um, but Buckcherry is a really righteous guy. I think he's a really, he's just a really good person, you know, above all else. He's he really, he's, like, a real cinephile. He really loves, you know, even though he might have produced some really big commercial movies, too. But he, he just loves cinema. And, and I think he just really wants to try, you know, he sees himself sort of maybe again, I shouldn't, you know, you have to ask him, but my read is that he really feels like a guardian of cinema. And, yeah, and that's why I got lucky, you know, I bumped into him, but um, you know, but yeah, that's why he again, he didn't he hasn't just done this for me. I'm not the only but pretty much. Many of the directors he's worked with were all first time directors, you know. And

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Doug Liman Yeah. Doug Liman with swingers and John Favre, and that whole crew, I mean, helping them along, and the list goes on and on. I mean, he's helped so many filmmakers

Tzvi Friedman 33:02
M.Night Shyamalan.

Alex Ferrari 33:04
A couple guys, a couple guys,

Tzvi Friedman 33:05
A second, like legit movie, like, I might did like a low budget, indie that went to a bunch of festivals, but his, his second, you know, like, more studio film or whatever, Carryade that happen. And, yeah, the list goes on forever. But um, you know, yeah, so it's really cool. And also, another cool thing is that Cary's producing a film called Maggie Moore's, which is a Jon Hamm movie right now, you know, in New Mexico. So it's just funny how we're making our little $10,000 movie and stuff and Carrie sending us notes. And then he's, you know, busy with these guys. It's really weird.

Alex Ferrari 33:38
It's and I just, I also, I also wanted to have you on the show, because I want filmmakers out there listening to see that this has happened Still, these kind of little, this lottery ticket moment, there are these are kind of lottery ticket moments. I mean, look, look, you're not making the next Marvel movie yet, or anything like that. But you are definitely on a path that will hopefully build a career for yourself and having a champion help you and we all everyone needs a champion Spielberg to look, you know, every one of the gods, the filmmaking gods that we look up to had a champion. If it wasn't for Steven Soderbergh, Nolan wouldn't have gotten insomnia. And without insomnia, he wouldn't have gotten Batman and the rest of that goes on and on if there's always a champion. So I'm just glad that that, that we could put this kind of story out there for filmmakers to hopefully hold on to and go look, there's a hope you got to just got it. The thing is that you just have to do the work without expectation because that's exactly what you did. You did the you didn't have any expectation of anything happening to you. Other than hopefully this is going to get made and hopefully I'll be able to do another one, let alone teaming up with carriers and becoming Oh. Let me ask you, I want to ask you about what is when you were on set, I always like to ask the question when you were on set, shooting one day a week, which is fascinating, which is awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. What was the toughest day on set, like that day that you felt everything was gonna come crashing down around you? And how did you overcome it?

Tzvi Friedman 35:16
That's almost every day, but many days. I'm like, we just have crazy, crazy stories. I mean, again, not. Not anything new but but fun. You know? So we were operating with like, it was a tiny who, first of all, like, some of our crew pulled out, you know, last shock. Last, Shocking. Shocking. Exactly. So we have to do the scramble, Facebook, all that all that jazz. Went to makeup artists like I don't you ever saw manbites manbites dog,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
Of course. It's amazing, amazing film, everybody listening, watch man bites dog. It's on criterion,

Tzvi Friedman 35:50
They keep killing the sound mixer. The reservoir. So that's basically what it was like, we were going through makeup artists like a revolving door, you know? Because again, we didn't really have money. So that's how it goes. Right? Nobody first you know, very people want to get and it was in the middle of the winter. But the second day, the second the second day, which is the second week, it was going to be one of these 18 hour days, and we're shooting in multiple locations. And we were at the beach, we decided to make it into the film and None None of this footage. And all of a sudden, again, I don't want to I love my crew and everything. But somebody said, Oh, we don't have we didn't have anything, we could have dumped the footage and we didn't have enough memory cards, let's just put it that way. It happens, bro. It happens. You're like one memory card, you know, and so that that was like one of the that was you know, I just started I had a full on panic attack. Um, and whenever we ended up having to drive over again, and laptop and good memory card was crazy. I mean, something as simple as that, that we didn't prepare for obviously, it was a little ridiculous. But still, we had like, I don't know what it was like a 64 gigabyte, you know, like, the whoever was supposed to bring that stuff didn't bring that stuff. That was one of them. And then we had another shoot. Well, also, we were shooting in a lot of places that were given to us as a favor and paying for it. Sure. So one of the places we were shooting at, I just remember being terrified of like things breaking, you know, and of course, we ended up breaking something. And then it was the whole thing was like who's gonna talk to the owner who's gonna make the call. And we'll just read tickets just together with the whole supervisors, just like fear because like, everybody was just like, let the kids do their thing. Let them play a little bit, you know. And then the craziest thing was, we were doing a reshoot of scene, a murder scene. And this is like, this is after the 10 weeks. This is like, this is like a few weeks later, we finally managed to get everybody available. And we're shooting a scene. And it turns out, we didn't realize that when we shot there a few weeks before dislocation was were a homeless man would sleep it was his territory. And he remembered us from the first time and he came he started like cursing us out. And my lawn producers span is from Colombia. So he speaks Spanish. So he understood what the guy was saying. But he didn't want to like tell us what the guy was saying because you don't want to scare us and we wanted to get finally conservative. He's like, I think the guy my break the camera, and I saw one and I turned around there pulls out a knife and he puts it to my AC'S neck. And he's like basically saying, you know, I'm gonna kill you if you don't leave. You know, so the first thing I did was grabbed the camera and Ron, you know, and and the whole crew followed afterwards. I was like,

Alex Ferrari 38:32
What happened to the AC what happened to the AC.

Tzvi Friedman 38:35
He was fine. But he said we you know, we just like walked away slowly like we did you know? And the guy just chased us out of there. He chased us out of the location. We couldn't go back we couldn't get any more coverage. And that was it. That's all we had. I'm afraid to go to that train. Stop now because it's near a train station.

Alex Ferrari 38:52
Wow. Yeah. It's crazy stuff and never ceases to amaze me the stories you hear about productions especially indie. No budget productions. It's there. Man, I've been there. I understand it. I I've been there's too many times to today. I haven't had anyone pull a knife on us. So that's a new one. I haven't had that. But there has been other stories to say the least. Now, I want to ask a few questions. I asked all my guests, man, what do you what advice would you give to that underground filmmaker listening like you've been listening to me? And what advice would you give them to get there, you know, to get into the business to do what they love to do?

Tzvi Friedman 39:32
Yeah, so like you said, like, there's no roadmap. Anybody who tells you there's a roadmap and end of the day I think it's bullshit. I remember I got a PA gig actually like on a big set called the good fight. CBS show. My friend Sergio was my line producer on my film. He got me in there. And I was like, I was trying. That was at one point. That was my thing. Like I just kind of get on a big set and I have no idea how right you don't go on indeed and get on a because it doesn't work that way. So it turns out these have to meet someone who knows Mondo can get you

Alex Ferrari 40:00
Networking, networking networking. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 40:02
Yeah. Which to me is kind of it's that's really frustrating to me about the about how the business it's like this very elitist, high barrier entry type thing. So I finally get on I'm gonna stand in PA, I'm given a radio and stuff, you know, and my job is to stand outside of door. I'm like, just like 1000 PhDs and I'm gonna stand outside the door and just tell people to be quiet, right? My job basically is to do nothing, but I got it was good money, but like, I did nothing the whole day. And by the by, by breakfast, I'm just trying to talk, you know, network speak to people find out like, how do you get into this mysterious place? And I remember I met the production designer of the show, and he was covered in paint, like his pants and everything. And I said, Hey, like, how did you get here? How do you and he looks at me with a big smile. He's like, you're here. I was like, Oh, thanks. Wow, great advice. But, but the point is, that there really isn't. And I remember I asked them, you know, how the actors have PA is also, you know, like the treated like royalty that can't touch the ground. So I asked them, the PA to one of the actresses like, you know, about the director, I'm like, How do you know how she got here? And she's like, you just have to do it. You know. So the point is that even when you're in the US the, you know, the inner chamber, the machine, yeah. Yeah. Like, nobody really knows. It's like, I remember seeing an interview with David Lynch. When he was doing Twin Peaks Season Three in like a cafe some woman was interviewing him. And she asked David Lynch, you know, what do you what's your advice to filmmaker, you know, asked to make a living or whatever. And he's like, I don't want to talk to such a filmmaker. You know, he was trying to say that if that's your goal, then, you know, he, you know, it was he's a very he's a purist. You know, he's

Alex Ferrari 41:44
He's an artist. He's a pure artist. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 41:46
Yeah, it's pure artist. But But I think it's true. Even if you do want to make a living off filmmaking, you know, you're gonna be in for a lot of heartbreak, probably, again, I'm, I'm in the very beginnings of this, I can't really, you know, give like real sagely advice. But I just think from the little that I've little path that I've traveled is that just make just, you know, make films tried to believe in yourself and on. And, but again, like some people want to I again, I don't want to impose my my thing, because I had my I put it this way, I just did my thing. I wanted to make my kind of film. I made the film, I wanted to make some I got lucky. Some people recognized it, and they appreciated it. And that was that but but who knows, you know, Ridley Scott made his made his first his first feature at 40 years old again, again, he was a big commercial director. You could you could point to that. But there plenty I mean, David Lynch was like, 33 I think what he did a raise your head? And so who knows? You know, there is no, there's no path. Ad. Yeah, there is no path. That's basically the advice that there is not no advice.

Alex Ferrari 42:52
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I get asked all the time. What that is, is like, just do what you love to do. And try it just don't don't bet the house on it. Because this is a very difficult path, digital question. And I've talked to everybody from the biggest guys to, to, like, you know, people just starting out like yourself, and it's always about, you know, how do I get in? And what do I do? I'm like, you just got to do it. And, yeah, you'll meet someone, you'll connect with somebody, maybe someone you met not now, in six years, they'll open a door for you that you didn't know about. It happens, it's happened to me, it happens all the time. It's just it. That's the thing that's so frustrating about being a filmmaker. It's unlike being a doctor or lawyer they have those are direct paths to making a career. You know, an engineer like these are direct paths. Filmmaking is just like, it's like, it's like a musician or like, arts in general, there is no, there are some paths you can take, but like to be a filmmaker to be a director to tell stories like that. It's tough, man. It's tough. But Is it doable? I talk to people every day on the show that it worked out. You know, I was able to make a career out of it as well and, and still love to do what I love to do. It's just about doing it, man. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Tzvi Friedman 44:20
Hmm, I think, um, just as a director, what I found again, like there's no universal because the honest, that's the thing, the arts are so subjective, which is why there's such a diversity of artists in so many different paths in the art world, because it's not a science. It's not a doctor. So, you know, it's not like look for a surgeon. Yeah, like, he'll tell you, you know, don't move the knife left because you'll kill the person. But um, but for an artist is very different. But for me, personally, what I found is that I used to think I remember I used to be a big Ridley Scott guy.

Alex Ferrari 44:53
Oh, I mean, Blade Runner. I mean, Jesus Christ.

Tzvi Friedman 44:56
Yeah, Blade Runner is one of those, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:59
Top 5 yeah, no, no, no question.

Tzvi Friedman 45:02
No other masterpiece. But anyways, I remember him saying like, you know how, you know, I storyboard everything. And you know, like, really? He's a tough guy. And premeditated, you know, and I remember being terrified, watching his interviews, he said, you know, if you're ninny, then this is not for you, like all the you know, and, and as I used to go into during the short, that's the, he says that it I remember seeing him say that, I remember, I would storyboard everything and just like, try to be like, very calculated, you know, and, and like, basically not let my actors breathe and, you know, be this tyrant on set, I'm going to be like Cameron and Scotland, you know, and again, it obviously it works for some for, for some people, but what I found, at least for the low budget world, is that oddly, ironically, it helps to sort of, like, let things go, like, for me, that's what I found, like, I was the biggest that I went from this feature, but this feature I came in with all these plans, and oh, boy, did I have to throw them away pretty quick, you know? Yeah. I found that, like, the magic for me happens when, when it you know, I'm avoiding the cliche of collaboration, but that's kind of what it is, like, you know, I got lucky my DP and I, we did two short films after the feature, I got like a really good relationship with Him in a really good relation with my editor, and my composer and the main actor, in my film, have a very, almost like a telepathic connection with him, you know, and we're able to sort of vibe with each other. It's kind of like a dance. And we just, you know, you have to leave, I think, for me, it's leaving room to just allow people to breathe, and let's try to let the movie sort of let it take its own form, let it come alive. It's like this organism that, you know, you only could control to a certain extent, and then you just let it live. And in fact, it ends up making the film better. I think, for me, when I allow the chaos, let the chaos take over. The chaos is good. It's not bad. You know? That's, for me. Probably the biggest creative lesson that I learned, you know,

Alex Ferrari 46:56
Fair enough. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Tzvi Friedman 47:01
And the there are none, but I could come up with three like very important films to me. Sure. Um, the 400 blows, I think would be one of my favorite films of all time Francois Truffaut. I would say I'd have to say, Christopher Nolan's Inception

Alex Ferrari 47:24
Mind blowing

Tzvi Friedman 47:25
Yeah, I have to say that one. Um, and I would say Fellini's eight and a half. Again, this is the mood now you know, your top three change, you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:37
Oh, no, that's just the three right now. Yeah, like a band plays on by Fellini,

Tzvi Friedman 47:41
I asked me when I was 10 years old, it would have been Star Wars, Star Wars and Star Wars, you know, so it just changes but right now, as a as like a filmmaker, when you're studying the craft, those are the films that really, to me, are like the most important films to me at inception to me, at least of the modern era of movies that's like to me like the Citizen Kane, my city might what I consider the citizen game for me of modern cinema.

Alex Ferrari 48:04
Well, my friend, I appreciate you coming on and being raw and honest about your story. And I wish you nothing but the best I hope man does very well and in the scene out in the festival circuit. And I hope to have you back when you're doing the next big Marvel movie or something.

Tzvi Friedman 48:23
Yeah, it's been pretty thanks for having me on the show. And it's it I still can't get over it. I'm talking to you is pretty odd listening to this voice, you know, Indie Film Hustle Podcast Talking to you, it's just it's, it's cool. And it's an honor. And it's also like, is this real? But um, okay.

Alex Ferrari 48:43
I appreciate you, brother.

Tzvi Friedman 48:45
Likewise. Yeah. Great to meet you Alex.

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