Screenwriters | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 462: Finding Your Way into Film Without Film School with David Powers

March 12, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome David Powers, a filmmaker whose journey into the industry proves that there is no single roadmap into cinema—only curiosity, persistence, and a willingness to learn by doing. David’s path didn’t begin in film school or on a studio lot. It started with a fascination for movies, professional wrestling, and the simple question every filmmaker eventually asks: how do they make this?

Originally studying business and marketing, David found himself increasingly disconnected from a traditional academic path. Movies—especially horror and cult cinema—became his gateway into understanding storytelling, tone, and genre. That curiosity deepened after attending the New York Asian Film Festival for the first time, where he was exposed to films, filmmakers, and storytelling traditions he’d never encountered before. Watching these movies didn’t just entertain him—it ignited a desire to understand what was happening behind the camera.

Rather than returning to school, David took advice that changed everything: go to set and learn the job firsthand. Within months, he found himself working on productions, absorbing how crews function, how decisions are made, and how problems are solved in real time. That hands-on education quickly led him into production work with independent professional wrestling promotions, where he learned camera operation, coverage, and storytelling under pressure—often from ladders, scaffolding, or whatever setup was available.

Those early experiences taught David a lesson many filmmakers learn the hard way: waiting for perfect conditions is a trap. Early shoots were done with borrowed or outdated gear, but the work got made. Feedback came fast and sometimes blunt, but it shaped his instincts. Each mistake became a tool, not a setback. As David puts it, filmmaking teaches you how to fail—and how to get better because of it.

Alongside set work, David began volunteering with the New York Asian Film Festival, initially helping wherever he could. Over time, that consistency turned into trust, and trust turned into responsibility. Today, he serves as Operations Manager for the festival, helping coordinate events, guests, screenings, and logistics. His rise within the organization wasn’t fueled by ambition alone—it came from showing up, asking for more responsibility, and genuinely caring about the experience of both filmmakers and audiences.

The conversation also explores burnout—an inevitable topic for anyone who has worked long days on low-budget sets. David speaks candidly about projects where poor planning, miscommunication, or ego made the work unsustainable. Over time, he learned the importance of saying no, reading contracts carefully, and trusting his instincts. Experience taught him that not every opportunity is worth taking, and longevity requires discernment as much as passion.

Yet stepping back didn’t mean walking away. Through the festival, David stayed connected to cinema in a healthier, more meaningful way—curating experiences, supporting filmmakers, and keeping the creative spark alive. Recently, he’s returned to directing through NYAFF Chat, a talk-show-style series that keeps the festival engaged year-round and puts him back behind the camera with renewed clarity.

Ultimately, David Powers represents the filmmaker who learns by moving, not waiting. His story is a reminder that film careers are built sideways as often as they are built forward—and that sometimes the path back to creativity begins with protecting your love for the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:30
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:41
My next guest is a filmmaker. He's working pro wrestling. Worked with the Ultimate Warrior again. I feel like I just said this, and he's also a staffer at the New York Asian Film Festival. He actually hosted his own podcast as well, called the turnbuckle throwbacks with guests. David Powers. So Dave, thanks all for coming on the podcast.

David Powers 1:04
Thank you for having me Dave.

Dave Bullis 1:04
No, it's been quite an eventful day. I may have actually

David Powers 1:04
An understatement. After that movie,

Dave Bullis 1:04
I might have accidentally shown you a gay porn, and I'm sorry,

David Powers 1:04
Bigfoot porn zero.

Dave Bullis 1:04
Well, in the in my defense, I didn't think DB Cooper versus Bigfoot was going to be a euphemism for a gay porn.

David Powers 2:38
Well, first of all, I didn't know who DB Cooper was or is, and that, you know, that title doesn't really, like, give away, like, Hey, this is gonna be, like, most awkward movie, one of the most awkward movies ever made.

Dave Bullis 2:51
Yeah, it was pretty awkward. There was no story, and it was a bunch of shirtless guys in the woods just kind of walking around,

David Powers 3:00
Well, you know, like I was telling you, like, oh, you know, this movie seems like it's like, you know, go in the same direction as, like a lot of other, like, you know, crappy B movies like Birdemick, you know, where there's like, a, just, like a driving scene that's like, in real time, you know, guy, they're filming like, every single turn the car is making. And, you know, there's this, like, shirtless dude in the woods just walking around, and it's like, 18 minutes later, finally arrives to a house, and then like, other shirtless dudes come out of the house and invite Him in. It's and it's just kind of like, like, oh, you know that's that's really like, stupid and funny. And then it just continues, and there's no story. And I even told you the Fast forward several times, and it just keeps getting awkward.

Dave Bullis 3:42
We fast forward it through 20 minutes, and it was funny, too. The when all those guys were coming out of the house, it was like a clown car. Yeah, it was like, more shirtless guys get fit in this house. It was just unbelievable that somebody actually thought that was gonna be a passable movie. I actually wonder how this is actually being marketed and

David Powers 4:02
Or if it's even being marketed? Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm sure it's being marketed somewhere, but not to anything that we would actually look at. Because, well, first of all, there's like Bigfoot is just like walking, you know, stalking through the woods, yeah? And, you know, there's these shirtless dudes, you know, even they're interacting with one another awkwardly, having like, these conversations that just like, they're not conversations, and it's just big wood, Bigfoot, you know, you know, peeking into their house. So it's like, Bigfoot a pervert too. Like, what's

Dave Bullis 4:37
They're the second floor, and He's peeking into the windows, so he's up on his ladder. He's like on the side of the house, like clutching on or hanging with him. It's almost like an animal house when, when they got the ladder, looked at the girls,

David Powers 4:52
But it's a Bigfoot looking at a bunch of shirtless dudes, exactly that are continuously changing from shorts to pants. Yeah, in public. Or in the house, yes,

Dave Bullis 5:03
Lots of toy gun play, lots of them in the in the looking in the mirror, lots of walking, lots of nothing.

David Powers 5:10
They supposed to be like a turkey shoot going on, and like they find bones in the woods, and it looks like somebody's like leftover KFC, yeah, or Popeyes or something.

Dave Bullis 5:19
And for all the people who got killed the gore level was like, less than one.

David Powers 5:24
There was no Gore, yeah. Like, he's like, slashing somebody in the face, and they make, like, a kind of, like, there's like a Foley Sound for, like, face flashing, and it's just like, a guy falling back into the wood, back into like a pool with like, no blood, and he's dead.

Dave Bullis 5:38
Yeah, sounds about right. So what would you give DB Cooper versus Bigfoot on a scale of one to a million? God, like, negative a million? Negative a million? Yeah, I would say at least, probably negative 999,000

David Powers 5:51
No, there's like, lots of like these, like lost films, you know, all over the world. And, you know, there is people trying to find, you know, was it lon Chaney's, you know, London at midnight? Like, that's only stills of it. And, you know, imagine you can just find whatever computer this guy has this shitty movie on and just delete it. So then it's, like, completely lost,

Dave Bullis 6:11
Yeah, yeah, it's completely lost forever, yeah. So let's never talk about dB Cooper versus Bigfoot.

David Powers 6:19
Ah, yeah. I somebody asks you've never seen it. You know? It's just like some things you can't unsee. Let's hopefully, like, I get hit by something very hard, and forget that I saw this movie. Yeah, we'll never speak about again.

Dave Bullis 6:35
So, Dave, yeah, so that we've been friends for a while, yes, and we actually met through social media, yes. And now you're here in Casa de bolas for the podcast. Yes. I wanted to ask before we get to how we met and everything else, well, even though I just told the story about how we met through social media, yes, but, you know, it's a question I always ask, and I always want to get to the start of this, and to always get to the start of when you sort of got bit by all of this. So you were in college, correct? Did you go to college for for film?

David Powers 7:06
Initially, I was going for business and marketing, and, you know, there's just got to a point where, you know, just didn't know where any of it was going. You know, had no, you know, particular, you know, end game or goal or anything in mind. And it was just, like, a really frustrating experience, like, for a lot of people. And I always, always wanted to work in, like, entertainment, like, when I was younger. I've always been a big pro wrestling fan, as you know. Oh yeah, I know that. You know you're wearing your Ultimate Warrior shirt. I'm wearing my Rick Martel shirt.

Dave Bullis 7:39
Yeah, seriously, I I wore this Ultimate Warrior shirt for you. Yes, you run the stud plexes, but we'll get to all that.

David Powers 7:45
Yeah, just, but which is another, like, like, an ominous, like, perverted, like, name, well, maybe we could talk about that later. I just show, like, bad wrestling videos and stuff like on Facebook through secret group and but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But, you know, was interested in in film and entertainment and stuff like that. Because, you know, just growing up like watching pro wrestling and, you know, I got into movies through watching a lot of horror movies, like Nightmare on Elm Street, like, my parents just watch Freddy cougar and have fun kid and, yeah, and in, you know, getting and actually, like, in high school, like, I was, like, a huge fan of black exploitation movies, oh yeah. Like, I remember seeing a clip of dolemite movie, The Great White hype. And it's such, like a, like a weird movie to kind of be introduced to something. But I remember, like, see, actually, no, that wasn't even in high school. That was, like before high school, like junior high, or something like that, where I first saw dolemite. And I was so enamored by, like, the horrible karate from this quick clip of dole might in the Great White hype. I'm like, I have to see this movie. This is like, like he's Rudy Ray Moore, you know, God rest his soul. Like he's, you know, trying, like he's not, like, in the best shape ever, and trying to lift his leg to do a karate kick, not making any contact with this guy. And he was, like, a thug falling into, like a trunk of a car. I'm like, even as a kid, I was like, like, I know this is not good, but it's funny, yeah, and, and I want to know, like, what, you know, what movie is this? And, like, how did, how was this even made? Who created it? And I don't know, just like that, that curiosity, kind of, you know, lingered on and back in 2010 I got to go to my first ever New York Asian Film Festival, which I currently work for now and just watching some of these movies, like, some of the genre movies, some of the rom coms and like, I was being exposed to a lot of different like, stuff that I never previously saw, and it just bugged the hell out of me. Like, how the hell they make this like, from like, the simplest ones, the more complicated ones, like, I know, you know, from what little I knew about, like, entertainment and, you know, filmmaking, I know there's a camera. I know that there's, like, a bunch of people behind the camera. But what the hell are they doing? What are they all doing? Like, when you watch like a TV show or movie that has like, like a film element to it, like there's somebody filming a movie. Like you always see, like people walking back and forth, and, you know, they're moving stuff and hearing stuff, and it's just kind of like, what are they all doing? And, you know, actually, from attending the New York Asian Film Festival like that, curiosity. Just like, like, I was like, Okay, I have to figure this out. And actually, six months later, like, I actually ended up on a film set. And once, once I got on, it was just like, like, a friend of a friend who knew somebody who was a DP, and I was like, questioning, like, like, I'm thinking about going back to school, maybe, like, a film school, or something like that. And this friend of mine was just like, Nah, don't even waste your time. Like, I know somebody who's a DP, you can learn all that stuff on set. I'm like, wait, what? Like, I don't have to go to a school and pay them, like, tons of money, and spend another four years to get a diploma so I can do something, like, I could just do this, like I can learn this, like on the job. And he's like, Yeah, sure. And sure enough, he was right and, and, you know, just getting onto a film set, just seeing what people were like, figuring out what people were doing. It's, it blew my mind, and, you know, I got the bug instantly. And it's just like, I want to, I know I'm not going to be like, doing everything that everybody's doing on set, but I want to learn what these guys are doing and hopefully make a living out of it, if possible.

Dave Bullis 12:19
Yeah. And honestly, your friend was right, by the way, because the honestly, it's like this podcast, it's basically, it is an audio film school. If we were talking about, you know, we were, you know, eating or whatever, or when you first got here, I forget whatever we were talking about, yeah, it's basically, you know, you have a lot of options. Now, people have options, you know, people who listen to this podcast know, I'm not a big fan of college. I become a fan of college less and less, yeah, just because the promise doesn't deliver. I mean, you're taught from, from when you're like, you know, in kindergarten or first grade, you have to go to college, you get a good job, you have to have that diploma to get whatever. You get it, and then you realize, holy crap, that's like, there's a gluttony of people with the same degree in the field, yeah. And it's just like, do I really even need this? Like, you know, do I really need this to do? Like, hell, I have a degree in business, and, I mean, I've never, I, honest to God, I've learned so much more outside of college. Yeah. It's like James alter always says, Do you really need to pay $200,000 to learn how to learn? No, exactly.

David Powers 13:20
And there's also something that he, you know, speaks about, like, in depth to, especially like his, like, anti college stuff. It's like, there's a lot of like, you know, you know things in real life that you won't learn in college, like, like, how to fail. Like, there's no class on like, failing. Like, everybody's trying not to fail in college. And if you fail, that's a bad thing. But in real life, ever again. But in real life, you know, especially in filmmaking, like, it's kind of like, the more you fuck up, like, the more you learn. Yes, and in real life, you know, you really do have to screw up to to learn and to, you know, hopefully not make those same mistakes, yeah?

Dave Bullis 14:01
And when you do fail, you can, you know, there's a saying that calm waters do not a good sailor make, yeah? So if you're just always smooth sailing and all these calm waters and everything's just copacetic, and whatever anybody can do that, you don't need that any, anybody, any, you don't even need sailor training. You know what I mean, you could just put that ship and just steer it away. But when the waters start getting very bad, the waters get all choppy, and then you're fighting tidal waves, and then you're fighting Krakens and all sorts of stuff, and you have scurvy that Bigfoot and Bigfoot, yeah? And that's when you have to know, oh, my God, thank God. Yeah. This is teaching you something, yeah, kind of like, you know what Nietzsche says, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, absolutely. So it's kind of like one of those things, and you know, and honestly, and to Dave, with so many film productions out there and with all this other stuff, you can just go on YouTube. If I was in high school right now, even in middle school right now, and I looked up films and stuff like that, or I looked up what was going on in my in. My area, wherever the hell I lived in the world. I mean, you could find a ton of other people doing the exact same thing and go, Hey, you know, you're shooting a film maybe next weekend. Or they're looking for people. Go to my local film office and just see about that. You know, one thing I want to tell people is, if you want to go to college, go to college. If you ask what you already said on honestly, but I would always recommend this, take a gap year high school to college, take that gap year and just do a ton of stuff, like we were talking about earlier. If there's something that you want to do in your life and it's itching you constantly, and you're like, god damn it, I you know, I really want to go to wrestling school. I really want to go make a film. I really want to do, go do it. Yeah? Like, before it's too late. And too late is when you're when you're dead, yeah, that's why class, yeah, too late,

David Powers 15:43
Because you could still be a wrestler. Like, if you're 80, chances are gonna get, like, really injured, but probably, like, after one bump in wrestling school. But, yeah, I totally agree. Like, if you if there's, like, a niche that you want to scratch, just scratch it. You know, there's like, so many people that try to say, like, oh, I don't have any regrets or anything like that. Everybody has like, some sort of regret. Like, you can go on social media and see, like, all these different, you know, entrepreneurs like Gary V and Tim Ferriss and all that, and in the rock to the other and, like, every single post is like, positive, and it's like, it can't be that way. There's there's got to be like, something that they regret it, or something like that, you know, like, there's everybody loves, especially on social media, posts in there, and their W's, their wins. So, and I don't know just, just from my experience in in real life, you know, there's more losses than are our wins. And in that just happens with everyone. It's not like, exclusive to certain people. And I feel like if there's like, a certain thing that you want to do, especially going into film, as crazy of a world as it is, and as much like, it makes zero sense to get into still do it. It's, it's, you know, you know, like, you know, me from, from doing warrior university with the Ultimate Warrior and that was just like, such a, like a random thing for me. And that was just like one of the stops on my film journey. And, you know, I just took, like a thing that I was really curious about. And, you know, I was like, You know what, I can do this? And I gave it a shot. And, you know, so many like opportunities that I would never have experienced, like, you know, doing warrior university with Ultimate Warrior that same year, I got to work on the Victoria's Secret show for my first time, and they brought me back a second year. And just like doing a music video for a friend of mine, like just having, like people, like giving me an opportunity, trusting me to do something that you know people wish that they could do. So, yeah, absolutely. Like, if there's any sort of curiosity that you have about life or something that you wish to do, like, do it. Just don't, like, keep thinking about it,

Dave Bullis 18:02
Yeah. And that's why I always say, like, people always wait till they're prepared. You're never gonna be prepared. It's ever gonna be the right time. You have to, what I would say is hedge your bets muscles as much as possible, yeah, and then just plunge right into it, yeah, and see what you can do. I mean, like, I'm not saying quit your job and you don't know, like that, like my, like, I was telling you before about my, about my one friend who wanted to go to wrestling school, and he kept saying finding excuses. And I said, dude, like, you know, if you want to do it, just do it. Yeah. And honestly, I have friends who want to make films, and they always talk about these ideas. Like, dude, if you have a screenplay in your head, just start running it down. Yeah. Go, go out honestly. Writers Duet is my new jam. Okay, that's my, that's what's duet, yeah, that's my new that's my new thing. Okay, writer's Duet is a, is a screenwriting software, the best screenwriting software. It's all cloud based. I held by the thumbs because I always like to have a physical copy. However, here's what writers Duet is, just it blew me away. It comes with an actual like, not only is it cloud based, but you can download the actual like software for it, so now it syncs up everything. So like, let's just say you do want to go offline, you can actually download your scripts, write them offline, then as soon as you're back with internet, it'll automatically re sync it. That's amazing. So see that that's key, because I'm always like, well, what if I'm somewhere and I don't have internet? Yeah, that it just answered my question for me, right there. I have no more excuses, so I just bought it, and it's better than, pretty much everything I've ever actually it is better than everything I've ever used. I've used for is now, the future is now, and it is voters duet, because I've used Celtics. I've used fade in final draft. I've used Sophocles. I did. I say Sophocles twice. Maybe I did. Oh, but anyway, I've used them all, and this isn't a commercial, by the way, for others to wet. Sometimes people ask me if I get paid for some of this stuff. I'm like, No. Like, honestly, I just, I just, I just, but that works. Yeah, I do. Like, like, I just told people stuff that works, and I will. I somewhat like some things, if it's on Amazon, you. Oh, There's a 99% chance if you go to davebullis.com and you see a link, 99% chance that it's an affiliate link. But at least I'm looking straight with that. Yeah, but, like, but, but hey, at least it's something I actually use, but like, writers do it, or whatever else you hear me talk about, whether you know, whatever it is, I make $0 off of that. I'm just telling you. It just comes up in the course of conversation. And, you know, that's what we were talking about, too, is you had an itch. You liked the you know, you wanted to get into film, you know, I want to hear more too, about the but the New York Asian Film Festival, because it sounds freaking awesome, yeah, and that's the festival you were talking about a little bit earlier, yeah, where it's just like, you know, as you know, we're both huge Asian cinema fans. Yes, I freaking love Asian cinema. I think it is just, you know,

David Powers 20:54
Well, I know you love Tarantino, see, then you gotta love, right?

Dave Bullis 20:57
You gotta love Ringo lamb. You gotta like to catch a Mackay. You gotta love chan Park. I mean, you know these, I mean, Takashi Mackay might be one of the most dynamic, diverse filmmakers ever, because he has made films like, something like, maybe the audition or visitor queue, and then he makes something like, what is it? 13 samurai. Is it? Yeah, 13 assassins, 13 assassins, yeah. And, and I was like, you know, see, it's something like that. When he's just got any, any so freaking political

David Powers 21:33
He even makes, like, he's made children's films too, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, This guy, man, he's just all over the place. Yeah, he's, plus, he's one of these filmmakers who he'll do, like, I don't know, like 10 or more productions a year. So yeah, maybe not all of them are good. But he's constantly, you know, working his craft.

Dave Bullis 21:53
He must be non stop just working, just turning it out. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, just back to the New York Asian Film Festival, you know. So what were your first experiences with that? And I mean, because now you're actually a full fledged staff member,

David Powers 22:07
Yeah, I'm Operations Manager with them now, after some years of filmmaking and being a bit hated from any experience, you know, one of the things that like, always, like kept me grounded in film and, you know, kept that fire going. Was the New York Asian Film Festival. I heard about it back originally, in 2009 I was taking a Japanese class, and there was just, like, some guy that came in who was, like, former student of, you know, that professor, and he mentioned, like, oh, there's like, some film festival show in like, Asian movies. And he was like, There's one called vampire girl versus Frankenstein girl with my background that I already mentioned. I was like, Whoa, where? Like, he's like, yeah, it's called the New York Asian Film Festival. I think at that time, they were like, at IFC. And I was like, after this class, I'm going on my phone and I'm looking it up. I'm signing up for any mailing list that they have and whatever screenings they have. I'm going to all of them, because previously, you know, now, whenever I would go to a movie, would just be like a, like a random, like a, not a random, but like, you know, your standard AMC, Lowe's whatever, yeah, to see whatever Hollywood movies are out there, usually for, like, for anything like, international or, you know, just like an independent film, like, I didn't think that those would be at, like, an actual movie theater. Like, I would just go to Best Buy to check out something that wasn't going to be in a movie theater. Or, you know, back in the day, you know, Blockbuster and so blew my mind that there was a festival for this. Blew my mind that they were like theaters that screen these movies. So it's like, I it was like a whole new world. Was like, you know, opening up. I'm like, Oh, my God, there's this. This exists. So, you know, true to my word, like, as soon as that class was over with like, I went on my phone, looked it up, and I found out that the 2009 edition was over, won't want so I signed up for everything mailing lists, got on their Facebook, liked it, and patiently waited for a whole year to go by, for it to come back. So 2010 was the first year I got to go, and their main guest was Sam, oh, hung Oh, wow, yeah. And Simon Yam, who's also like an, you know, bunch of you know, Ringo lamb, you know category three, you know, Hong Kong movies. And I was like, wow, you know, like, I've seen these guys, like, in movies, and they're, they're here, like, they're guests, like they're here to talk about these movies. And didn't know too much about the festival. I didn't know too much about, like, you know, some of. These directors or actors, but new New York Asian Film Festival kind of covered everything from, like, indie to, you know, big budget, you know, films for, you know, all these different Asian countries. So, you know, it just rolled the dice and, you know, picked up their catalog like a program book. When I went to my first screenings, and I just, like, looked through it, and I'm like, this looks cool. This looks this has a badass title. Let me check it out. Rom coms, I don't really watch those, but I'm gonna watch them now. Like, which ones you should watch? 2010, I don't remember, because I was like, maybe 11 years ago. Maybe, was it like, drink, drink, drunk, or maybe My Sassy Girl? Or, No, My Sassy Girl was earlier than that. Oh, my God, I'm trying to once I figure it out, I'll let you know, okay, but I'll link to in the show notes. But I, you know, I just watched like, all these different kind of movies. And there was, like, some stuff that I wouldn't even like bother with. Like, there was one documentary on a Japanese folk artist called Live tape. And it, I forgot the name of the the artists I should remember, because I have the soundtrack at home, but it was literally this guy, you know, starts off walking in, you know, one of one space, and he just starts strumming on his guitar, gets into song, and then he meets up with a band member in some other part of town and goes into another song, and it's all one shot. And they're walking through like, the town you know, him meeting, you know, one band member at a time, and then at the end of the film, like they all meet together, and, you know, get into the last song, and I'm like, wow, this is one shot. And I think I was telling you, like, beforehand, I was like, you know, what's behind the camera? How are they filming this? How do they make it, you know, look the way it does, you know, how are they able to do this in one shot for like, over an hour and have it look the way it looks? Yeah? So just like watching these movies, just kind of like, you know, being a being a big film fan to begin with, because I was, you know, like I mentioned, I was really into black exploitation movies and just other kinds of film and anything that really piqued my interest. Like, I have this like habit of, like, I have to dig as deep as possible, go further down the rabbit hole to find out. Like, you know, what is this all about? You know, what? How did it start? And, like, yeah, how is it what's the community, you know, like, and, you know, notice that there were, like, volunteers and stuff like that. So I'm like, I have to work for the festival next year. So I ended up volunteering. And now I'm actually like, I've volunteered so volunteers so often and been so consistent. Like, now I'm like, part of staff.

Dave Bullis 27:51
So when do they offer you part of staff? Like, did they did somebody there finally say, like, look, this powers kid is really got some Gump shit. He's got some gunk. Yeah, I'm gonna promote him. No, but like, what was the like? Was there a final thing where somebody finally said, Look, Dave, we're just gonna promote you to this for next festival. Or is there anything like that? Or was it like, sort of, they mean, you could get you were consistent, you were always there. So I'm sure, I'm sure somebody had to know something, right?

David Powers 28:19
It's kind of hard to say, because it just kind of happened, like organically. It's kind of like you're just there so long that they just kind of give you a title. Because, believe it or not, you know, despite the caliber of guests that we get, you know, we've had people like Jackie Chan and was our last last year's big guest was Lee Byun Hoon, who was in Magnificent Seven. And, you know, despite getting, like, some of these big names, like, it's really, like, a our team is really tiny. There's, like, a, probably less than 10 people that program it, and probably less than 10 people that are just part of the staff, like, helping out with, like, you know, random stuff. Like, one of the things I'm doing this year is event planning. I don't have too much experience in vent planning, but I sure as hell I'm gonna have it this just this summer. Thankfully, the person that I'm working with, like, has done that before, so, so we're not like, Hmm, let's get some string cheese and toasty So, but it's a really small team that makes this this big festival, like, come together. And really, I think you know me coming into the position that I am with, with operations management, it's just really like, I've just been there for such a long time, kind of like with a lot of the films I worked on in the past, and like some of the guests that you've had on the past, you know, they want to do something so bad, and they want to figure out how it works, like, you know, just want to do like, every year that came by that I was volunteering, it's like, you know, what else can I do besides volunteering? I just asked for more and more tasks. And, you know, because it's such a small team, like they were like, okay, won't you do this?

Dave Bullis 29:05
I mean, yeah, everyone knows each other, right? Yeah, you know, event planning. I've actually done a few like events and stuff like that. Yeah, my tips are always going to be, always, always, always try to get, like, some kind of deal whenever you can. And what I mean by that is I would always, I always pitched quality, quantity over quality. Is the very rare time I actually, like, for instance, alcohol companies. Yeah, I would pitch them constantly. And eventually the vodka companies are huge, and sponsoring shit, even if you can't get money, even a free bottle of something, is a pretty good thing, because you give that away. And it's always, it always looks pretty cool. You can put up their stuff, or you can just trick it yourself in a parking lot and just, yeah,

David Powers 30:59
One of our sponsors this year is same beer sponsor from last year, singtal. Oh, yeah. So they're gonna be one of our, like, sponsors. So we got the free beer. No, they got the beer hook up.

Dave Bullis 31:11
Nice, yeah. See that stuff like that. He that stuff like, you know, just getting one sponsor and getting another sponsor. I mean, honestly, that's, that's the whole thing.

David Powers 31:20
One of the years we had, like, McDonald's as a sponsor, because I was, like, looking was, like, looking, because I had, I was been helping out with the Wikipedia page, and I asked for, like, all the old programs I remember, like, McDonald's was one of our sponsors. I can't even imagine why McDonald's, I don't know. Maybe they had the the Mulan Szechuan sauce, or something like,

Dave Bullis 31:38
Have you been seeing Rick and Morty? By the way, have you seen the newest one? Not the newest season? I've seen, like, some past episodes, the show is incredible. Yeah, that's the whole session. Yeah, yeah. He's got the obsession with Yeah, with that. And just want to bring it up just in case. But yeah, McDonald's, I'm just like, What? What the hell you know, honestly, did you ever get, like, any local restaurants that say, Hey, maybe I can cater for maybe one event, and then maybe the guy down the street cater for another event that way, not killing the small businesses, and they can sort of get something in return as well.

David Powers 32:08
We're working on like stuff like that for this year. I don't know too much about it, because I can't talk too much about it either, so you'll find out if you told me you'd have to kill me, right? Yeah, or make you watch DB Cooper and Bigfoot again?

Dave Bullis 32:22
Well, I thought we were ever going to talk about that again? You have to men and black me and give me one of those, those phaser things. You're just like, I don't remember anything

David Powers 32:30
Well, for the sake of punishment,

Dave Bullis 32:35
Was that the worst we've ever seen?

David Powers 32:37
Oh, man, for me, it's not actually, no, that's not the worst movie ever seen. I'm trying to remember I've seen so I've seen some, like, really horrible ones, because, you know, just sometimes, just, like, curious about something, I think, like, the worst one was, like, an old school like, Mexican horror movie, like, about an Aztec mummy. And, like, the mummy's not, like, hardly in the movie. And, like, it's, it's like, all, like, there's like a voiceover talking about, like, every scene that's going on, and there's people talking. It's like, let the people talk. I don't need a voiceover. Just, just let these people talk. And then I think, like, the way that the mummy is killed, like, is, like a car runs over it. I'm like, Really, this, this, this creature comes back from the dead after 1000s of years, and it gets run over by a car to be killed.

Dave Bullis 33:23
So they didn't have cars in Egypt. They just, you know, had hooks up the brain, you know, or if something goes to get the brain,

David Powers 33:29
So apparently, this mummy can come back to life, but if it gets hit by a car, it's, it's a done deal.

Dave Bullis 33:36
But sorry, that's a good too far off as we talk about DB Cooper and stuff now, yeah, but just to go back to the Asian Festival, you know, I'm glad to hear that it's constantly growing, yeah. So what is this year's festival?

David Powers 33:46
It's gonna be happening June 30 through July 15 at Film Society of Lincoln Center, which also is like hosts like other festivals like the New York Film Festival. And last couple days, we're gonna be at the SVA theater on 23rd street.

Dave Bullis 34:03
Cool. And who's the big guest like this year? Because I know you've had Ringo Lamb, Jackie Chan, you said,

David Powers 34:10
Haven't announced any guests. Oh, how do I know? So we'll have to do something after Okay, so I will update this as soon as you make an announcement. We'll be announcing it very soon, actually, okay, good. Because a little bit early with promoting it, well, not too early, but still early. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 34:25
What are we halfway through May? Yeah? So, yeah, okay, about a month. Yeah, we got about a month. Yeah, that's a good time to get some promotion out, yeah? But, yeah, I'll do this as well, because you're actually the next episode in the gate. So I just, I was like, Well, I guess I'll update it. Yeah, okay, when it when you announce the guest? So absolutely. So you know, what are some let me ask you. We talk about networking and stuff. You and I talk about all this stuff. What are some of the things that you've taken away from doing the festival about networking? I mean, I'm sure you've seen people who are awful networkers. Oh yeah, cards out there. Everybody, yeah? And there's good networkers who are almost like, and not to use the Asian theme too much, but like a ninja, where it's like, you know, they're just like, How dare you Yeah, I know exactly right into stereotypes, yeah, but no, like, the they're basically like, you might not know who they are, yeah, but everyone seems to know who they are, you know, yeah, like, like, Hey, do you know? You know, maybe I don't know John Wong, do you know John Wong, oh, yeah, yeah, I know John Wong, have you ever actually met him? I just have heard of him. Yeah. What? I mean, that type of guy. So, I mean, have you seen some of something like that at the festival? What are some of the things you've taken away from it as well,

David Powers 35:38
Just from working, just in film in general actually has helped me out a lot, you know, working at the festival, because we do have these, like, high profile guests, and you never really know how, like, you know, every everyone in general, when you meet them in real life, they're all different. And, you know, when we have, like, big name guests or smaller name guests, it's just kind of like, I just treat them like humans, because at the end of the day, like, I'm not gonna try to pitch these guys an idea, like, or like, Hey, could you get me a job? You know, I'm not gonna be like, begging Jeff give me a job. Like, Gil from Simpsons, get me a job.

Dave Bullis 36:14
Oh, look good. And for old Gil,

David Powers 36:16
Give Gil a lick. Come on. Like, no, no. Like, usually, actually, one of the many jobs I've had in the past was to bodyguard, you know, some of these guys really, who'd you bodyguard for? Jackie Chan was the one that one, that one's actually kind of a stretch, like, it still was like a bodyguard thing. But it was literally like, we need you to, we need you to walk Mr. Chan over to his car. And it was like, it's like, five feet away, or something like that.

Dave Bullis 36:45
Has anything ever happened? We better, like, put somebody down.

David Powers 36:47
No, actually, for the Jackie Chan thing, there were, there were, like, some, like, autograph hounds. There were rounds. And it was kind of strange, because this, we had him for like, a press conference, and it was just like, it's not one of those kind of things that you're gonna, like, find out. Gonna, like, find out about, or it was really, like, low key, and it's like, you know, it's just thinking to myself, like, how did these people know that he was going to be here? So, you know, never estimated the power of a stalker. Yeah. So seriously, man. But luckily, there was, like, me and another guy, and, you know, we were, they were just like, a bunch of kids wanting autographs. So it wasn't that hard to, you know, put them down. But, you know, at that time, like they were like a like an ant, like an animal rabies, but my face, I'm like, no kid, yeah. You know, from my experience in professional wrestling, Power Bomb, the kid on the concrete.

Dave Bullis 37:44
You gave me the rock bottom and the Stokoe sign,

David Powers 37:47
yeah, give him the Super Kick, and now give him the sleeper hold and cut his hair afterwards. But anyway, but it wasn't anything too crazy. And, you know, just one thing that I learned, and, you know, just I learned in real life, it's just like, you know, some people just don't want to be bothered, and situation like that, you know, just do what I was told, bring him to his car, let him get in the car and drive away. And, you know, whenever I've, like, dealt with like guests in the past, you know, I just give them their space. You know, if they want to talk to me, they could talk to me. If not, then fine. Like, there's been, like, there was, like, one really famous Korean actor, Lee Jung Jae, and, you know, there were some other big name Korean, you know, stars that were there too, and they were outside of the theater. They just wanted to sit down at a table and talk. So I let them sit there and talk and me and like one other person was helping me out just watch the area. There was, like, some people that like, Lee Jong Jae and like, yeah, give them their space. And, you know, you know some, thankfully, you know, some of these people are kind enough to just, Hey, let these guys, like, chill out. They're human beings, you know, let them, let them chat with one another, because I'm sure, like, with their schedules and stuff like that, you know, seeing people that you work with or worked with in the past, you know, they just want to hang out. And there's a screening for one of you John Jay's films, and he just wanted to stand in the back and watch it. So, you know, I just, you know, stood there with him, let him do his thing. I didn't ask him any questions or bother him, and at the end of it, he just said, thank you. And for me, that was validation. But there's been times where I've, you know, bodyguarded, like some of these guys, and there's one in particular, Ringo Lamb, who is just kind of like, Who the hell is this guy? Why is he following me around all the time? And then, like, at the end of it, we were like, best friends, and and I'm like, wow. Like, this guy was like, Who the hell, who the hell is this guy following me around? And, you know, at the end of it, like, I we actually, like, bumped into each other at a at a restaurant. And, you know, after one of the screenings, separately, separately, was he, like, you followed me here, too? Kid? No, no. Actually, by that time, like, he got, he, like, grown got grown accustomed to me, and he was like, hey, this guy's All right. And he actually got, like, he stood up from the table that he was at and went over to me and, like, shook my hand. Oh, and, you know, like, you know, said hi to, you know, the people that I was sitting with. So you might have, like, situations like that, but like, I never go out of my way to say, like, Here's my card. Like, I was at Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. You should hire me for stuff I know the Ultimate Warrior. Yeah?

Dave Bullis 40:55
Seriously? Well, because, well, at that point you didn't know the ultimate war that, yes, yeah. And so, so, well, at that point you had everyone at the table. You have to say, this is Ringo lamb.

David Powers 41:05
Oh, they already knew who he was. This is there were some of them were working with me at the festival. One of them was like a friend who flies out from from Austin. Her name is Christina. Hi, Christina. I'm sure she'll be listening. She better be listening. Yeah, I don't know who that is, but she's got to be listening. So, you know, she was hanging out, like, oh my god, ring a lamb. So, you know, it was, it was a big deal, and it was like, such a genuinely nice thing for him to do, like, I wasn't gonna go out of my way to, you know, to be a fan or mark out or anything like that.

Dave Bullis 41:34
Did anybody bring up the fact that city on fire is what? Let me change this around. Okay, that Reservoir Dogs is very similar to city on fire.

David Powers 41:45
No, you don't say, yeah, no, that wasn't brought up. I think because it's like such a like, I think at this point, especially if you're going to the festival, you probably already know that, yeah. So it was just kind of like a moot, you know, subject to bring up. Also, like, he, it was funny. He was very shy, like he didn't really want to do, he didn't want to do Q and A real or anything like that. Like, we did give him, like, a lifetime achievement award, and he didn't, he just said thank you. That was his speech. And it was funny, because he did have some, like, great stories, like in the back and stuff like that. But just, you know, he was a pretty shy guy, or just didn't want to, you know, you know, talk. I don't know, I don't know the specific reason, but it wasn't brought up. But I did ask, like, one of the programmers, like, hey, basically asking the same thing, like, Hey, is anybody? Well, I know people have asked that question, but I was like, oh, you know, what's his like, take on that. And it was just basically like, oh, well, we steal a lot of American ideas. So if you stole, if America steal one of our ideas, all right, that's cool, me. So it was just kind of like, you know, mutual, kind of like, respect, yeah, that's pretty cool, because essentially, that movie basically made Tarantino's career.

Dave Bullis 42:59
Oh yeah, absolutely. And then then Pulp Fiction was the was the sort of Death Blow, yeah. And I mean that in a good way, because that's a good one to combination. It's probably one of the best one two. I got into a discussion with this for for a film professor at Yale, because he we were asking, what the best one two combination of movies from a director, they have to be back to back, yeah, and that hat that has to be up there. He ended up contending that, oh, God, what was it that he said it was actually very tough to beat too. God, damn it. I forget, but when I our original show notes exactly official shows, I will link to it. I'll put like, this is what the hell I was talking about. But I forget what it was. I it wasn't. For some reason I keep wanting to say Sam to Sam Peckinpah movies, but it wasn't Peckinpah. It was. It may have been something it was. It was something else entirely, but I'll get, I'll put those in the show notes. Okay, time, and I'll wait and listen

David Powers 43:54
The breaking movies,

Dave Bullis 43:58
Which Claude Van Damme and and Boogaloo shrimp.

David Powers 44:02
Yes, yeah. It was a great guest on the Super Mario Brothers Super Show.

Dave Bullis 44:05
Yeah. You know that one guy, not, not, not Boogaloo shrimp, but the other guy, Shabadude, you know he's, like, apparently, a total fucking prick in real life.

David Powers 44:14
Well, with a name like shabadoo, like, either you're really, like, the greatest guy ever, or you're, you're cursing God for being named Shabadude.

Dave Bullis 44:21
I guess it's the latter, because apparently, like, I've had people who've met him and stuff, and they said he's just, like, even back then, they were like, he's just any the girl who was in break in, she said he she knew for the after, when they was like, Hey, we're gonna make a sequel. She's like, he better not be in it. Wow, apparently, because he's just so, like, I'm the best dancer out of all of us, and you better all,

David Powers 44:45
Well, I guess you gotta have quite an ego after being on the Super Mario Brothers super ship. Well, Boogaloo shrimp is apparently a good guy, yeah. I mean, you have to be with a game like Boogaloo shrimp. Yeah, come on.

Dave Bullis 44:54
So, so, I mean, you know, and it's great to be, you know, the Asian fest. Of all the New York Asian Film Festival, I'm just glad that there's actually festivals like that now. Yeah, they're becoming more and more prevalent. Because, honestly, man, like, there are some kick ass movies that are coming out from Asia, and sometimes you get buried, and Tarantino made, what was it Rolling Thunder? I think films or productions, yeah, it was going to be like, he's going to start showing these, apparently, it just sort of teetered off. Because, I think, yeah, it wasn't seeing the ROI Yeah, but I wanted to ask, though, did you ever get to see vampire girl versus Frankenstein?

David Powers 45:29
Yes, I did. Okay, God, I got it on like, DVD, like, I think, like the following year or something. Oh, right. That's actually, it was funny because I one of the friends that made through film, just, I guess, to get like, into like, you know, connecting with people and networking and stuff. I was watching the Sci Fi show face off, and there was, like, one, you know, I was starting to get into film. I was just really being like, as bold as possible, because it's just kind of like, Yeah, I saw this great opportunity to just grow as a person, to like, because I really like, held back on, you know, pursuing anything I was interested in, like a big wrestling fan, but I never went to wrestling school. Yeah, they did go to the Chikara pro first tryout. So really, yes, how's that go? I'm not a wrestler, but it was fun. Did you run the ropes? We didn't run the ropes. It was like, super, super basic.

Dave Bullis 46:24
Do they? Let me ask you, did they just, like, try to weed out everybody by making this just do, like, body weight calisthenics, like Hindu squats and running them? Yeah, we, we did

David Powers 46:33
that stuff. But it wasn't like 500 Hindu squats or anything like that. I essentially, like the gist that I got from it was like they were looking for new wrestlers, yeah, like, genuinely looking for new wrestlers. So they just started doing this so, you know, that they could find new talent. Yeah, cuz they were very, like, at the end of it, like, I could tell, like most people, like, including myself, were just there, just to, like, wonder what it's like, yeah, and I specifically was going because a friend of mine's, like, brother badly wanted to be a wrestler. So I'm like, you have to go through Chicago pro because they literally had the best like, trainers at that time. I'm sure they still do now, but like Mike Quackenbush, yeah, Mike Quackenbush, who's one of my favorite indie wrestlers, and Valley, wanted to be a wrestler. So I was like, you know, you got to go to this. And then I got, you know, another itch had to be scratched. So I was like, let me check this out at the end of it. Like the wrestlers on hand and everybody, they were like, almost like, strong arming people to do to like, we'll give you a discount, or something like that. But I was watching the Sci Fi show face off, and there was like one person on there named suley, who I was when getting into film. One of the things I, like promised myself is like, I have to align myself with people that are doing better than me for one thing, so I can learn from them and to, you know, find people that like I know I'm gonna work well with, and three people in the area. So I saw her on the show. Thought she was awesome, enjoyed her work. She was nearby. One of the key things that I heard her say on this show, or like in an interview, was that she was willing to work on local, like independent movies.

Dave Bullis 48:27
That's her kiss of that. That's right there. I got her. I got her. She's mine. And we always turn to guys a big chomping cigars, like, where he's, like, I got it Yes.

David Powers 48:37
And just thinking about the big money bags with the dollar sign on it, I'm making money Exactly. And I reached out to her, and it turned out like she was, you know, also, like, a big, like, Asian Film fan, despite her being Asian and but I found out, you know, from, you know, we, you know, scheduled time to meet up and just like, chat to see, like, hey, was this? Like, is this somebody I want to work with? And she mentioned that she was originally going to school for like medical, like prosthetics. And she mentioned she went to the New York Asian Film Festival in 2009 for vampire girl versus Frankenstein girl. And I think she met, like the director, one of the directors and SFX artists, nishimora, and she was like, after, I don't know if it was specifically seeing that movie or just like, seeing some other movies in general that kind of, like, put it over the top that she actually got to meet this guy in person. And I know it was like a turning point for her to, you know, go to the festival, meet this, meet, meet Nishimura, and, you know, decide like, hey, you know, I'm done with medical prosthetics. I want to do, you know, movie makeup. So, you know, we both had that like in common, that like the festival was kind of like. A light bulb, you know, for both of us, Like, hey, you know, there's, there's, you know, more to our day to day life than just you know, going to work or whatever you know, plans that we, you know, had at the time so and you know, just want to throw it out there. Like, like, if you see somebody, even if they're on TV or something like that, like, obviously be polite and very, you know, humble when you approach people, because it really is annoying. If you're like, Hey, you want to be my movie, or, Hey, can you work on my movie? Or, like, and there's just, like, no real, like, you know, plan behind asking them, other than like, Hey, can you do this for me?

Dave Bullis 50:48
Like, because there's no script, you know, you don't mean there's no funding. It's just like, it's, I know who probably gets it the worst, and he's not Asian, but it's Bruce Campbell, yeah, I imagine he probably gets it every single day. Like, yeah, should we be in my movie? Yeah. And they probably call mash too, yeah. Well, they do excited because they don't know, yeah, exactly right. And Brian Halloran Dante from clerks, yeah, it was great you're supposed to be here today. And he goes, I was actually there one day talking to him, yeah. And somebody actually walked up to him and said, Hey, Dante, you guys supposed to be here today. And he goes, Yeah, haven't heard that one a million times today, exactly.

David Powers 51:28
But you know, if there's, like, somebody that you want to work with, or somebody that you want to talk to genuinely, you know, I absolutely recommend doing that too, like it, you know, a lot of you know things that we do for the festival and, you know, things that I've done, you know, for my actually, here's a good story for you. When I was working with beyond wrestling, think the like, there was, like, one week where WWE had the Muppets as, like, the guests, like GM, or the guest host for raw, and the promoter Drew was, like, the Muppets on Raw. Like, well, that's, that's ridiculous. Like, so what is beyond gonna do you have Tommy wise Oh? And I was like, I can get a hold of him for you. And I think, like, Yeah, I think he said to be like, yeah, if you could do that, like, we'll see what we could do. And I actually got Tommy Wiseau from the room on the phone, like, the next day, and he was like, talking to me, like, what are you gonna do? Actually, the specific phrase that he said maybe about like 20 times on the phone call is. So what's the story? David, and like, I was like, oh my god, I have Tommy Wiseau on the phone, and he's interested in working for beyond wrestling, this independent wrestling organization in Rhode Island.

Dave Bullis 52:36
That should be like, the name of your book. So what's the story David?

David Powers 52:40
Yeah, in book forms, exactly.

Dave Bullis 52:43
So it's just, it's just an audio book. But, yeah, it was, so it's just, it's just funny, because, you know, wrestling sort of attracts a lot of different people. Yeah, I again, you know, for everyone listening to this, I as, you know, as I've said before, I have stopped watching wrestling years ago. I just talked about it now, yeah, because I just can't get into it anymore. And I mean, you, I haven't watched it in years upon years, probably since I graduated. Well, no, I probably stopped, maybe 2008 maybe somewhere around there, yeah, so. But like, I love all the old school stuff. I love talking about the old school stuff. And I know you and I use wrestling terms in everyday speech, yeah, just by, like, by by accident.

David Powers 53:22
Like, we're using, like, old Carney terms to people that have no idea what it means. Like, I'm really getting heat in on this person, like I was trying to sell this and, like, it's marking out. Like, wait, what are these people talking about?

Dave Bullis 53:34
Like, is he stiff in it? Was he taking liberties? Yeah. Like, big time, enough time. And I love that term. It's just and, like, he's a chopper, yeah? It's just stuff like that, like he's jobbing out to him tonight. It's just stuff like that. And it's just like, it's like, it's just funny stuff. When you when they don't know what they're talking about, yeah, but people very rarely, we were saying, they very rarely, will call you on it, and so they're just like, oh, yeah, because I think they kind of understand what you're trying to say

David Powers 54:01
It's funny because, like, I've never been, like, a big fan of, like, you know, inside talk, like, even for film, like, when I've been on set, like, somebody calls, like, a cable, a stinger. I'm like, yesterday, wait, see, there's a cable this. Call already? Sevens, yeah. I'm like, like, as much as I have, like, enjoyed film, like, I don't like, like, film insider terms, like Stinger like, just go all the cable. It's a cable. Look at it. It's a cable. It's, I know, you plug it into some got two stingers on the floor here, yeah? Like, come on, really,

Dave Bullis 54:29
No no. See 40 sevens, though, although we do have one clamp, we each have a clamp on here.

David Powers 54:34
Was it? Like, the, like, the clothes like, you know, clothes pins, yeah, and people call my bullets and stuff like that. And it's just kind of like, really, it's just kind of like, I'm sure for some people, like, hearing like, who've had conversations with me using wrestling terms of what is this guy talking about? Like, where this guy sounds really stupid, using me.

Dave Bullis 54:57
It's kind of like that movie brick, where they just, everyone kind of talks. Have you ever seen brick? There's Jason Gordon Levitt in it, and everyone talks like a 1920s gangster, but it's set in modern day, like, so what's the story about the dame? It's like, it's actually kind of funny, but grifted me. Yeah, exactly. Chisel. But we were talking about, you know, pro wrestling. How did you get involved? Because I think you said to me, your first shoot, your actual first introduction to film with a pro wrestling company, right?

David Powers 55:28
Yes, actually, my very first film, like shoot period, was with beyond wrestling. Actually, that's, I think I filmed with them for like, a year and a half or so, and I've actually had the opportunity to film an inter gender match with Sasha Banks before she was big. So in the video, the match is actually on YouTube. I think if you just like, type in like Sasha Banks, beyond wrestling, you'll find this, like, funny inter gender match with her in it, and me standing on a ladder filming it.

Dave Bullis 56:01
I want to make sure to find that link to that in the show notes. Yes, I just kicked the microphone. So everyone who's wondering what that noise was, I just have to kick the microphone.

David Powers 56:13
Yeah, but it's funny because, like, you know, trying to figure out how to, like, get into some of this stuff. I'm sure, for like, a lot of people, it's like, absolutely frustrating. It's like, like, you hear everybody else's story, and, you know, there's so many like, different avenues that people have got into it. It's not like something that like, like, just not like a step by step process to, you know, get on, you know, become a filmmaker, or, you know, have a specific title. Like, everybody finds their own way. And thankfully for film, you can really go, you can really get into it through like any means possible. And if you have, like, a desire to become like a director or writer or actor, whatever, you could start at any position and figure out your way through there, but with beyond. It was funny, because I always, like, even when I was a kid, I always hated people that had connections when I didn't have connections, or they would like, have, like, a stupid story where, like, I went into a supermarket and some person found me, like, you're my next star, and they went to Hollywood and became big, or something stupid, like, I had $4 in my pocket And I went to California and started in a production of hair, and then I became a big star that sounds like so unrealistic and funny enough, there was a gym by me, which I always knew that wrestlers like in the past, like Jimmy Snuka and I think, like ultimate war of like rowdy Piper, have gone to this gym, like, whenever they're in the area. Used to be a Gold's Gym, and it's been has it's gone through different owners over the years, so it's had several different names. But my dad just got me, like, a gym membership there, or something like, I think, yeah, he was going there too. So I should get a gym membership here. It's 20 bucks a month. I'm like, sounds good enough and funny enough. Like, I was wearing my chic pro, you know, hoodie, like, for a workout or something, and, and at that point in time, like, I didn't know if there was any wrestlers still going to this gym or anything like that. And, like, I just didn't even think about that or care. And you always hear about like, guys getting into the business from going to a gym, and some wrestlers like, Hey, you look like you should be in the business or something like that. And strangely enough, that kind of happened to me. Like there was a wrestler, like an independent pro wrestler at the time. He went by the name of Nick talent. I think he's going under Nicholas K now, and he saw me wearing the chakar hoodie, and he thought that I was one of the chicara wrestlers, because most of them were luchadors wearing masks, and they're all, like, super skinny. I didn't have the muscle that have now. So he saw me, thought, like, Oh, this is one of the chakar guys. He's probably just like, here for a workout. And I was like, No, I'm not. And then we just started like, Bs ing, he realized, you know, it wasn't like a weirdo or anything like that. That's the key. That's the first if you want to get into anything, yeah, a certain job or whatever, Don't be weird.

Dave Bullis 59:15
Don't be crazy. Don't be a weirdo. That's the two big don't breathe heavy over the food like that,

David Powers 59:23
Be nice. And, you know, we just had, like, just had, like, a fun chat. And whenever I was in the gym and he was there, we would just BS about wrestling. And, you know, he knew I was interested in getting into film. Another key element, if you want to get into film, just tell people that you want to get into film. Eventually you're going to find somebody that knows somebody. So this guy, you know, he would always tell me about beyond wrestling and how unique it was, because essentially, it was just kind of like a promotion that didn't have an audience. The audience was literally just the workers. So it was, you know, wrestlers, wrestling for wrestlers and with the with the mindset of, like, this is a good way for guys to network, and, excuse me, a way for for guys to, you know, get feedback from each other. Because, yeah, I don't know, like, the the mindset of the little locker rooms now, but like, I know of in the past, like, you know, you really have to really be super humble, and, you know, mind your P's and Q's to get feedback, you know, from certain guys, you had to ask the right people and just get some input on, you know, their work, because wrestling is definitely an art. You know, they even like, I've been in the ring, I've run the ropes. Nobody was teaching me how to run the ropes. I just tried to run the ropes on my own. And I'm like, wow, this is, like, the most unnatural thing ever. Like, you just, like, you just, like, run towards the ropes. And like, you know, you have to turn, but it's just, like, such a awkward movement, and like, using the ropes for momentum to to bounce off, and like, you know, run the other direction. It's just not natural at all. So, you know, just, I'm sure, for these guys, just, like, just trying to get, like, their craft, like, polished. Because, you know, when you see the stuff, like, on WWE, like, these guys are truly professionals. They make something that's like, completely like, unnatural, look like, so easy. But when, and I know you've, you've done some, you know, pro wrestling school with King Kong Bundy, like, just a lot of, you know, this, this, you know, movements and wrestling, they just, like, you really have to, like, work at it hard. You know, falling on your back, falling on your knees, and, you know, just just getting slammed and just trying to make it look like as seamless as possible, takes a lot of time and effort. And, you know, a good friend of mine, Chris Dickinson, who's in Evolve wrestling, kind of like a feeder system for WWE is like, Performance Center, you know, he, I remember, he told me, like, it took him, like, I think, like, three years before you realize, like, how to make a match. So imagine, just like having matches and just like not getting it. So these guys like form beyond wrestling to, you know, kind of bridge that gap, to get feedback from other guys to, you know, network with one another. But also, you know, put the stuff on on YouTube, you know, for fans to see it, which actually ended up, like, frustrating a lot of fans like, How come you don't have live shows? But initially, you know, he invited me to do camera work, you know, for beyond wrestling. And I'm like, wow, I don't even own a nice camera, and I'm going to be filming a wrestling event that's going to be, you know, put on YouTube for people to see.

Dave Bullis 1:03:02
Yeah, So did you feel like, Oh, yeah?

David Powers 1:03:06
Cuz, you know, since, you know, with independent pro wrestling, this was like, Really, like minor league at the time, like, Now, beyond wrestling has like, you know, really like stack lineup, and you know, a lot of guys that have competed for WWE or, you know, maybe have, like, some sort of, like a contractual deal with WWE that they appear on, like, their, you know, NXT or or the 205 live cruiserweight show, like they're wrestling and beyond now, and initially, like, for a lot of these groups, they don't have like, a, like, a nice setup. It's not like this, like, fancy television production. It's literally, like, we're gonna give you camp quarter, all right, we don't know where we're gonna set you up for a steady cam so we're gonna put you on this ladder, or we're gonna put you, like, high up on this, like, like, I don't even know how it's even, like, termed this thing that they put me on initially, but I was like, high up somewhere, like a scaffolding, or it was, it wasn't, or something like an eagle's nest, and I was just like, terrified of, like, falling off of this thing more than, like, getting a good shot. But apparently I did well, so they had me come back for other events. And so that was, like, my first, like, taste of film. And it was literally from, like, it literally happened from, like, a stupid, you know, like, man, you know, I wish I was, like, some guy that they found at the gym, and, like, it happened to me. Like, whoa. This actually does happen. So, so that's my, that's how I got initially started off into film.

Dave Bullis 1:04:39
And see, as we sort of take a step back here, you know, you had to fail. You know, when you were actually doing this stuff, you had to actually learn how to fail. And you had to learn how to, you know, do it the right way. Yeah, learning running. Talk about running the ropes, how the natural that was, and how you basically, you know, you have to learn, you know, this whole new skill. Yeah. And most. Of the time you learn by failing. Because, you know, yeah, so,

David Powers 1:05:02
You know, not all the stuff that I shot was like, great. Like, like, it was like, somehow it'd be like, after the fact, like, the promoter would be like, gotta stop like, doing, like, the zoom in thing, like they do on WWE, because it doesn't look good for our stuff. And, you know, just getting feedback and not taking it personally and, like, you know, how can I, how can I make this better? Like, I, like, my, my, you know, aim was not to be like a camera guy or anything like that, but at the same time, it's like, okay, well, there's going to be situations where they may need somebody, whether it's beyond or somewhere else, just to press record, yeah, and, you know, just, just, you know, make things look nice.

Dave Bullis 1:05:44
And just because I have to ask, because, again, yeah, this is filmmaking. What kind of camera did you use? Or if you're on the film set, it's, would you shoot that on? You know, if they're a film festival, you know, if you're at a film festival wherever, and you know, the film people, because they're going to come up to you and say, would you shoot that on?

David Powers 1:06:00
Exactly for the first one. It was, oh my god. It was like, literally, the promoter, like, dug out some, like, old camcorders and, like, they did have like, some HD to them. Well, no, no, they actually, they weren't HD. It wasn't until, like, there was like, one wrestler who goes by the name of, oh my god, Jarek, 240 or something. I forgot the numbers. Sorry if he's listening, but he, he was into film. He was, he was doing a lot of editing. And he had, like a, I think it was like the the rebel he had with him, okay, for, and that was like for our very first rebel, t3 i Yeah, for our first for our first live event with an audience. So we were actually had, like, by time, we were actually allowing, like, an audience to come in and, you know, watch us, you know, do our do we actually had, like, HD, you know, cameras with us. Oh, cool, so, but the initial, like, you know, tapings, they were just like some old camcorders that the promoter dug out, or, like, one of the wrestlers had an extra camera on and

Dave Bullis 1:07:06
And that because the show we were talking about. You know, you can't wait to you ready. You have to just go with what you have. Yeah, actually,

David Powers 1:07:14
I remember, like, a earlier in the conversation you mentioned, like there's, like, some people, they just we, we, they're waiting for the perfect moment. They're waiting for the for the right thing. I've known people that have, like, graduated from NYU for filmmaking, and they're like, Oh, I'm gonna wait to make a film. Like, once I have, like, the right camera or something like that. Like, No, don't. Don't wait. If you have like, a cell like, we're at a point now where you can make an amazing film with your cell phone. There's, like no excuse for doing what you want to do.

Dave Bullis 1:07:42
I've had on Sean Baker, who made tangerine and we talked about how he shot that whole movie with his iPhone, yeah, and that was a Sundance darling, by the way. Still my most popular episode ever with Sean Baker, yeah, I mean unbelievable numbers, because I actually got to interview him before. Every before it just blew up. I It was like, I even planned this, and it was just serendipitous. That is all of a sudden, it like I did the interview, and then here's where he, like, all of a sudden, was everywhere it being mentioned, so people were looking him up, and his first hit was my podcast. So that's why, all of a sudden I saw the numbers. It was kind of like one of those, like, Scooby Doo cartoons, where you're kind of like, yeah, I rubbed the rise links, and be like, What the hell? So, so it's awesome, but, but yeah, and so, you know, he just, he knew what he wanted to do, and you know, he wanted to shoot that, but, yeah, you can't. You can't wait for the perfect time. You know, no, and that's what that promotion did. They just, they knew what they had, and they made it work. And as you mentioned, King Kong Bundy, he always talked about the story telling of professional wrestling and the story telling everything else. And, you know, because, you know, Bundy says professional wrestling supposed to mirror a fight, yeah? And that's why he doesn't get things like the tackle, drop down. He doesn't get things like the LeapFrog, yeah. He says, if you're in a fight, why the hell would you be trying to leapfrog over somebody? He's like, Well, here's the perfect example. Is this. He goes, the other guy, you whip the other guy into the ropes. He comes back at you and trying to Gore you like a bull, so you leapfrog over him. And he goes, he goes, What the hell is the psychology of that? And, and you understand, I understand what he, what he, what he's saying with that. You know, it's, it's just a but, because, I think now, with the way wrestling is now, because, again, as we were talking about the pre interview, I have two friends who talk about it all the time, so I got it all my information from them. It's like, don't you think that'd be a good podcast, though, where they just, they both deny they watch it, and then all of a sudden they're talking about it, but, yeah, but, but, but, yeah. No, no, that's, that's where, that's what I was just talking about, was just that, you know, wrestling now that things will be different. I think, you know, with how everything's changed, yeah,

David Powers 1:09:46
I think the the artist storytelling is kind of, I don't want to say it's lost, like these kinds of things, is like, never really lose them, but they're definitely, It deserves to be brought back in like, grand form, because, you know, wrestling, just like film, it's like, about memories. Yeah, you know, there's, like, some, there's been, like, some great talents over the year. I remember, just, like offhand, I remember, it's like an episode of Cohen O'Brien, where he's, like, talking about Sid Caesar, and, like, this amazing comedian from from back in the day, and but he never really did any films. So nobody really like, despite how great his comedy, you know, was, and still is today. Like nobody talks about Sid Caesar or his influence on comedy and but you know, with with wrestling today, you know, without stories, without those moments, you know, there's no like, there's nothing for people to like. You know, tell others about, like, a lot of things that we get sold on, especially with film. Like, somebody tells you about, like, I saw this movie, you know, like, city on fire, and it's like, this happens, and it's so like, similar to war dogs. It's like, whoa, wait a second. He took that movie from that guy and like, and you, and it just gets you captivated. And if there's no moments, there's no memories, it's just gonna get, you know, hard to, you know, sell some of these people down the road.

Dave Bullis 1:11:31
Yeah, it's, you know, somebody once told me that that writing a screenplay is really scene writing, yeah, because you're writing these scenes out, and these moments that happen within these scenes are really key. Like, the movie casino, I was actually just, it was one of my recommended some of the clips on YouTube were recommended to me, and I started just watching this again. I was like, You know what, fantastic. Just some of these things. Like, you know, when, when Robert De Niro and when his wife in the movie, which is Harren stone, she ends up going back to her pimp boyfriend, yeah? And that whole scene happens. I mean, it's just stuff like that, you know. And they beat him up at the outside in the park on all of Robert near his boys. And just like, you know, there's this movie so well put together, and it's just these scenes that we can always talk about, because I had a friend of mine in high school who would always put on movies, and he want to show you the best scenes, yeah? And I was like, dude, just let me watch the fucking movie. Like, I don't need to, I don't need to see, like, because he was trying to show me Dawn of the Dead at just the best parts, like in the mall. I was like, Dude, I just wanna see the movie. Like, I don't need you to show me like that, the head explosion, your daughter dead in the beginning. Yeah. Was the George Romero version, by the way, yes. Not the, not the James Gunn version, yeah. But what, you know, look where they actually, they're going to, they're going through the apartment and the guy blowing the heads off and stuff like that. But it's the moments like that. And we were talking about speaking of the warrior, you know, when WrestleMania six, when warrior beat Hogan. I mean, that's, you know, that's someone leanly, yeah, leanly,

David Powers 1:12:55
It's just in like that match. Actually, I'm more of a fan of the career, ending match with him and macho King Randy Savage. And actually, when I knew warrior I, like one of my one of my regrets, is I didn't get to ask him about that match. It's like classic storytelling for those that have no idea about wrestling or that match in particular, you know, it's just like a heated few between the macho man and the ultimate warrior to a point where whoever loses the match loses their career. And it's like at a point of, like this blood feud between these two guys, they hate each other so much. And you know, this was, like a unique match, you know, at the time, like they got over how much they hated each other, and in a sense that, like, their demeanors completely changed from what they how their fights were normally, Ultimate Warrior usually, usually would jet down the ring. For this one, he walked down the ring. He was focused, you know, on macho man as his opponent, like he wasn't going to slip up both of these guys, like, performed each other's finishing moves like, multiple times, which was like, in the past, like you would never see a guy like, hit their finishing move more than once. Like, none of these guys were laying down for the other there's even a point where ultimate warriors like second guessing. He's already got macho man down on the floor, and he's second guessing, you know, should I continue? He's like questioning his fate in professional wrestling. And he decides, you know, he's speaking to the gods, and like, he comes back in the ring and then just, just destroys macho man and pins him with one foot on his chest. And it's like, whoa. What the hell just happened. And then, if you know anything about wrestling, you know, at that time, the macho man was separated from Miss Elizabeth, like they, you know, there was, like the whole feud with Hulk Hogan and and Miss Elizabeth was torn, so she was accused by the macho man, you know, that Hulk Hogan was lusting after her. So. She split up from the macho man, and she finally returns to the macho man at that WrestleMania after, like this, like, epic loss to the Ultimate Warrior. So you had, like, your love story. You had, like, this intense battle between two guys, like, who was going to win? It wasn't like, an easy thing to, you know, predict, like, some people could just watch wrestling now, like, Oh, that guy's gonna win because he's popular. But this was, like, completely unpredictable. It was like, there's like, so many different dynamics going on with this match. And I always wanted to ask him, like, what the hell was like? What was it like for you? And Macho Man, like, figuring this match out? And unfortunately, I didn't.

Dave Bullis 1:15:43
So how did you meet the ultimate warrior?

David Powers 1:15:46
He was doing these inspirational videos on YouTube, and, you know, I call wind of them. And you know, Warrior has been always like these, like fascinating personalities in professional wrestling, where it's like, basically a comic book character come to life, and, you know, there's always, like, a big, you know, feud between me and my friends, like, who's the better wrestler? Warrior, a Hulk Hogan. I was always a Hulk Hogan guy, but I love the warrior. And just being the wrestling fan that I am, I'm always curious what these guys are up to when they're not wrestling. And warrior was doing like, these, these, like, intense over the top motivational videos on YouTube. And you know, being the open minded guy that I am, you know, I think a lot of people, when they see these videos, they're like, Oh, he's in character. He's an idiot. He's just screaming. But I was like, you know, I'm gonna pay attention to what he's saying. And, you know, some of the stuff was just like, so like, just like, well said, well put. And, you know, despite him almost kind of being in character, and it seemed like the, you know, this man has, like, significantly matured, you know, from his time in professional wrestling, you know, from the the raving lunatic to this with this, well read, you know guy and who you know hadn't been wrestling in some time. You know, he's aged significantly. You know, he's got the gray hair, but he still, like, had, like, this amazing body. You know, not to go back to the to the movie we were talking about earlier, but

Dave Bullis 1:17:23
He was shirtless a lot.

David Powers 1:17:24
Yeah, it he should this guy have, like, discipline in life, yeah. And these, yeah, I would just like watch these videos over and over again. And you know, me and my other friends would like share them and like, like, some great stuff. And you know, some of the people that you know was friends with, even some of the film people like you got to listen to these videos. They're incredible. And some of them would be like, oh, you know, he's screaming. He's an idiot. I'm like, No, listen to what he's saying. And even they would like, eventually, like, turn there's like, some people I've like, I turned them into MP threes and gave them out as like CDs for people to listen to in their cars. And there's like, a few of my friends who like those things, have not left their cars and wherever they've like moved to like that CD goes along with them. And there was just, like, one day he posted a new video saying he was doing an autograph signing New Jersey. And he was thinking about doing some filming at that time on YouTube. There were two TV shows that he put out. There were, there were, there were pilots that it was clear that they weren't going to be like, aired on any television network and called the warrior show. And basically it was Ultimate Warrior taking like these screamo bands to a gym and taking like these, like,

Dave Bullis 1:18:47
Yeah, because the first band was, like, something alexandretta, or

David Powers 1:18:50
I have forgot the names. I haven't seen it in so while, in so long. But it was just kind of like, after seeing the motivational videos, and you're and like, I'm not a big screamo fan. So I'm like, oh my god, I can't wait to see these guys, like, you know, get taken to task at the gym, and have them see him puke and all this other kind of stuff. And, and I watched the show, he had them like, he put him through the ringer, had him like, do some crazy stuff, but, you know, turned it around in, like, and for, you know, this guy who's a celebrity, and, you know, like, for the food you ordered, you know, you wear an Ultimate Warrior shirt now, like, when the guy delivered food, he's like, Hey, that's the ultimate warrior, isn't it? Yeah. And I thought it was interesting on the show, he didn't assume that anyone knew who he was. And I one of the things that kind of like, endeared me even more to him. He's like, I know you guys looking at me like, wondering who the hell is this guy and all this kind of stuff. And then he starts explaining who he is, and you know why he you know, you know, put him through the task that he did, like, all these different like, workouts, excruciating workouts. And just to you know, get them to really physically feel like, you know, like you have some like power in you, not just to like be some like crappy screamo bands, you know, getting trashed on rose a and, you know, doing you know nothing with your life you know like you, he's getting it through to them. Like, hey, you have, like, an incredible, like opportunity that you know your band. You can get your message heard across to, like so many different people. You can use this platform for for something grander. And when I saw this YouTube video of him announcing that he was going to do filmings. I was like, I have a feeling it's going to be something like this, but I want to badly do it. And it was funny, because initially we were told, like we were not going to be told what the format of the show was going to be. If you're interested, he had a several page like, application that you had to fill out and you had to do your own video to send to him. So I was like, Oh, my God, I don't want to film myself.

Dave Bullis 1:21:10
And what was the application like? What were some of the things on there? Like, was really, like personal questions or

David Powers 1:21:15
They were kind of, like, not too super personal questions. But, you know, like asking, like, what did you What do you do for for work, you know, what? What motivates you? Do you work out, like, you know, like, basically questions asking, like, how, you know, mentally, physically, spiritually, how do you like, you know, hold yourself, how do you like, handle yourself, and all that. So it wasn't like this, like, weird, like questionnaire, of all these weird questions, it was actually pretty, you know, something like an introspective kind of, like, you know, form to fill out. So when I was filling it out, there was stuff, a lot of stuff I, like, you know, think about on a regular basis. But now I was actually writing it to someone else. I was writing it to a childhood hero, and did the video. Was like, scared of shit to do that. And I think like, about like, since I badly wanted to get on the show, I just did my best to completely forget that I even, like, submitted it. I didn't want to think about it. Was not going to obsess about it, nothing. And I think I heard back from like, two weeks later or a week, no, no, it was a week later. Did he call? You know, his management called me okay, and they're like, oh, you know, we're interested in having you on the show. And I was like, I they left the voicemail, and I immediately, like, called him back, and we were, you know, later given, like, I don't want to say, like, vague instructions, but they were not, like, they didn't give us the format of the show, what it was going to be. He just said, once you meet all meet at this hotel in, I think it was Woodbridge New Jersey at 4am I'm like, Okay, this sounds like the ultimate word. So we all got there, actually, I was so I knew he was going to have us, like, work out. And I knew that was going to be the case. And I was so hyped up. I was still, I was I was like, okay, they're not giving us the format of the show. Let me just come in regular clothes, but bring gym clothes with me. I was so hyped I completely forgot to bring my gym clothes. And I just showed up, like, wearing, like, skinny jeans and converse and my Charles Bronson shirt. And I was like, and once I got there, saw everyone else in gym clothes. I'm like, Ah, I'm fucked. And he met with us there. And it was funny, because it was just a spot that they picked. Warrior was not staying there. He showed up in a car, like, you know, I think at like, four or something like that, and basically told, you know, they gave us the deal like, Hey, you guys are gonna take a five mile walk to the underground strength gym in Edison, New Jersey. And I was like, five miles, all right, we're in for a long day. And the camera crew didn't show up. Meanwhile, you know, really, camera crew didn't show up. Warrior was there. His manager was there. And, you know, Warrior at first, just, you know, acted normal. He has said hi to us, shook our hands, stuff like that. And once it was clear that the camera crew wasn't there, keep in mind, like I said, you know, this is not a hotel that anyone was staying at. It was just a spot that they picked for all of us to be there. And he's like, Oh, Steve, his manager brought him into the hotel. Meanwhile, we're outside, screamed at this guy. And he was like, go. He was going into full Ultimate Warrior mode. And I'm like, oh my god, so awesome, even though he's just like, screaming at this guy. And. Like I said, this was not a hotel anyone was staying at. So there's somebody working at the table in the lobby. There's no one else there. It's just the Ultimate Warrior screaming at like, some guy in a hotel, where the hell is the crew? And it's like, at the same time, I was like, wow. Like, he's just like, he's just like the character and I also, at the same time, like, Okay, this is also, well, we're going to be like, who we're going to be dealing with for the rest of the day. And, my God, like, that was just kind of like, it seemed like an endless workout. I think from start to finish, it was like over four hours. And he had us. I was doing stuff that had never done before, like sandbag carries. At that point, I wasn't even, like, strong enough to, like, lift this thing on my shoulders. Had to have someone help me with it. And did the warrior like, was he watching as you were, like, somebody, oh yeah. He was there going. Was he just, like, kind of like, sitting there? Just no he was encouraging people to team up and help one another. So it was kind of like a team activity and and it was just one of like those, like, hottest days of the summer, and we had to go from from the gym and walk these, like sandbags to a dumpster. It's a parking lot that was nearby, and we had to walk back and did things like that, and again, like I'd never done before, like, tire flips, flipping, like, 200 pound plus tires, and trying to think it's like some of the other stuff. It was just like, really, it was just like a really, like, intense, like, I think once we got to the gym, it was just like a two plus hour workout. And, you know, with the purpose of just like seeing, like, Hey, we're more capable, you know, we're capable of things that we're that we're not even aware of, because the fact that, you know the physical, you know, state that I mental, state that I was in at that time doing the stuff that I did that day, was like, whoa. Like, I couldn't believe that I even did that. But the the thing that I remember the most from from that experience, was at the very end of the workout, and this is where the skinny jeans came into play. It came into big benefit for me, he had us crawl on the parking lot floor with chains around our neck, 45 pound chains on our neck from one end to another. And then at the end of it, he was like, if you don't follow your dreams, this is basically what you're doing to yourself. And there were guys after that. We were all talking to one another for weeks. They were pulling out like glass from their knees because they were wearing shorts, and I was wearing, I was wearing skinny jeans, so I didn't worry about that. Jesus. But it was, it was, it was a very, incredibly memorable experience. And, you know, I still go to the underground strength gym, and Zach and I, and we always, like, talk about, like, that day constantly.

Dave Bullis 1:27:58
Well, you know, it's funny because we were talking, I've actually, like, I don't know, know Zach, but I've actually emailed him back and forth. I bought a program from him, like, a couple, maybe a year or two, maybe a couple, a while ago. But yeah, I know who he is, and so, yeah, shout to Zach Evenish

David Powers 1:28:15
Of Zach Evanish he's got his own podcast, the strong life, yeah, podcast, which could download on iTunes.

Dave Bullis 1:28:21
Yeah, don't advertise on people's podcast. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I clearly promote Zach, yeah, but yeah, it's, I'll obviously link to all that in the show notes as well. And you know, it's been a Zach's a great guy. And just going back to what we were taught with what you were talking about, Warrior, when he said to you, you when you're following your dreams, this is what you're doing to yourself, like, all the time, yeah, you know, did a lot of people at that, at that finally have that aha moment, like, holy shit.

David Powers 1:28:48
Like, I can't speak for everyone, and, you know, like, some of these, some of these kind of experiences, you know, once you have them, like, I feel like it's a real, like, you know, process to to really, like, understand, like, the things that you go through. And I think for a lot of guys, including myself, you know, we're still learning, you know, from that, from that day, you know, I can, you know, just speaking for myself, I can tell you, I've, like, greatly matured, you know, from how I, you know, talk to people, how I treat them and stuff, and, you know, how I, you know, pursue my own dreams. It's not like the hardest, it's not the easiest thing to do what you want. You know, I feel like the mind is like the greatest, you know, barrier to just to living, you know, I forgot that Muhammad Ali quote is, you know, it's not like the biggest mountain that's in your way. It's like the pebble in your shoe. Oh, yeah. So, you know, it's just like that, just like some of the mental chatter, you know, it's like, really, like the hardest stuff to overcome. You know, you know, going through that experience with him. You know, I'm still like, you know, learning and still reminding myself, like, hey, you know, it's really just as simple as just doing what you want. And if you don't know how you know, if you don't know the first step, just, just do whatever you can do, what you know, talk to whoever you got to talk to, like, like, some of the people I've mentioned, you know, previously. And I'm sure you do the same with with your podcast, like getting guests to, like, you know, James Altucher. I'm sure he's not easy guy to get. But you persisted and you continued,

Dave Bullis 1:30:41
Yeah, it was, I did talk to his girlfriend a lot. Yeah, that that's a tip from from from me to you, is, whenever you have a tough guest, always go to the wife, girlfriend, whatever. Yeah, that's always a good way in i and then, sure enough, I was able to, sort of, you know, yeah. So you know, she wouldn't be in the right direction.

David Powers 1:31:00
Exactly. It's, it's really just like, you know, even with the the film festival, like, when I first started going to the New York Asian Film Festivals, like, how do I, you know, volunteer. I remember my very first day volunteering. I was actually coming off of the Kitchen Nightmare set. I was working with them. And how was the workout? Kitchen Nightmares? By the way, it was a nightmare. I didn't, I didn't see Gordon Ramsay once. Actually, I was just like, happy as, like, a pig and shit to be, like, on the set. Yeah, cuz that was a big deal for me. And actually funny enough, like, you know, I never was like, into like, cleaning my house or cleaning in general. I didn't even know how to paint. And actually being on that set, I learned how to do all that stuff. I actually like paint like, you know, it was all about, like, renovating, like, you know, these different restaurants that were just like pieces of crap, yeah, and, you know, I actually working on Kitchen Nightmares, I learned how to paint

Dave Bullis 1:32:02
Well, yeah. You know, somebody once told me that, like shows like that and Bar Rescue, that the way they choose a restaurants are the restaurants that are hanging on by like a thread, yeah? And basically, what happens is, there's already going to be like conflict there. The producers don't have to basically add anything, yeah. So basically, you know, the criteria is, hey, it's hanging on by a thread, which means something is desperately wrong anyway, because, because good restaurants, even if they even a place, looks like crap, if they have good food, people will come in Yeah. As people have told me, the best pizza places are the ones that look like the shit. Yeah, outside you go to go in there, it looks like shit. Outside, you go in there, it's like the best pizza.

David Powers 1:32:40
Yeah, they got the chandelier. And you like champagne cola,

Dave Bullis 1:32:45
Yeah, you like, what the hell like where the pizza is banging, but, but? And, you know, there's usually some some, some issues there with the food. Some people are just in complete denial. The place is falling apart. There's people that don't want to admit to their mistakes exactly, and also, because somebody once told me to about this, I just find this stuff fascinating. I don't want to take too much time away from you, but it's like, the other thing is, is that, if they were going to go under, yeah, the anyone who's had has some like, business acumen, yeah, say something like, okay, look, I don't want to throw good money after bad. So here's what we're gonna do when the lease is up and maybe a year from now, yeah, I'm gonna just focus on just making as much money as I can for the business. And then when that year's up, I'll maybe break even, lose it less, but I could still get out and I won't be losing my shirt. You know, whatever those businesses that are like in the real like bottom 1% or bottom whatever that appear on stuff like Bar Rescue and Kitchen Nightmares, they are so far gone, yeah, that it's like they are literally hanging by a thread. So everything is just like pandemonium when you go there, yeah,

David Powers 1:33:49
Actually, it's like pandemonium on set. I remember one of my, like, craziest moments was they're like, We need a waffle maker for the next scene. We need you to go to Walmart and get this specific waffle maker. I'm like, I got it and drove like a madman to get this waffle maker. I drove back, drove down a one way street, the wrong way to get him this waffle maker. And then, like, when the the show finally aired, like that scene wasn't even in there. So I was, I was waiting for that waffle maker scene. I'm like, you know, I went through hell to get that waffle maker, and they didn't even have the dignity. Just show one waffle or the maker on the episode.

Dave Bullis 1:34:29
It's those editors are brutal, man, they slaughter. They slaughter without man. So as we sort of talk about all these things, you know, meeting the warrior, and everything else, you know, you mentioned you got burned out from doing a lot of this stuff, and so did I. And who asked what we actually bonded us? Because we're like, look, we've had 28 experiences. It's time to sort of see on down the road. Yeah, you and I, finally, we're talking again, and we're saying, Hey, listen, you know, it's been a while since, you know, we each have done something. Yeah, you know, we you and I've ever worked together, but, you know. We each, you know, we ended up taking day jobs. You with various companies, me with various companies, because you just got burned out. So I wanted to ask you, and you know, free feel, you know, feel free to talk for as much as little as you want. Because I know, you know, obviously, you know, maybe some stories that you don't want to talk about, but, yeah, but you know, what are some of the things that happen to you that sort of burns you out. I won't even go into it, because everyone who listens this podcast already knows, yeah, they're pricing. They're going, Oh, Jesus Christ, don't let Dave talk anymore about Yeah, let the other Dave talk exactly. Let the other Dave talk.

David Powers 1:35:31
Oh, my God, it's like, and, you know, this is just like a process that everyone goes through. You know, when you first start out like you're so eager, you're willing to do anything, and, you know, to degree, I'm still willing to do whatever, like, as long as I feel like there's going to be some sort of benefit out of it. Just after a while, like, the number one thing that really, just like, troubled me the most, I think it's like a tiebreaker, one, just dealing with people that have no idea what the hell they're doing, and they're not willing to, you know, learn, yeah, to advance and to people that just get so emotionally, you know, tied up, you know, on set. Like, I've, you know, I'm a pretty humble guy. Like, you know, I don't have to be like, the director, writer, actor, producer. I don't have to be the Ed Wood for every movie, everything that I do. So, you know, there's times where I'm willing to, you know, PA, I'm willing to do anything like, as long as it seems fun, hopefully I'll get a payday out of it, you know. But, you know, just, just like, going through, like, some of the ridiculous, like, things like, I've had to, like, go to court appearances because people didn't, you know, clear a certain location, and then somebody saw us filming there, and you know, we would get, you know, summonses to court. And really, yes, damn, yeah. Like, it was just weird. I thought everything was taken care of, but it wasn't. And I had to show up in court, thankfully, was dismissed. But you know, it's just like, stuff like that, when people just, like, don't think out, like, think out like the process and to like the even if, like, they're friends with, you know, the people that they work with like they, you know, don't, they don't think of all the steps. You know, a lot of, you know, some of these situations are forgivable, but there's like, sometimes where I've had, like, people freak out on me for for stuff that made no sense. Like there was, like, specifically had a set that I was on where I was sent to go get some props. I had them was ready to walk out, got a call, like, we need you to CVS to get suntan lotion. I'm like, All right, I'm on it. They're handing me the receipt. I'm gonna walk right it out. Like, no, I need you to leave right now. Like, I'm about to leave in like, a minute. Like, no, no, you have to leave now. I'm like, this makes no sense. And, like, It's situations like that where I learned to just say, like, Yes, I'm on my way. I'm leaving, right? Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, even though, like, you know, knowing how to handle some of those situations, like just after a while, like people just freaking out or just causing, like, unnecessary stress, and these days are long. Like, average day on set is like 12 hours. And you know, I've had people that would go for 24 hours and and it's just kind of like, wow, I physically, like, can't, like, handle when somebody, like, make some of these mistakes because they're, you know, again, like, some of them are forgivable. Like, I can, look past through things, but there's just, like, sometimes where, like, you can tell that you're being clearly taken advantage of, yeah, and there's no benefit out of it, no none whatsoever. Or just like, you know, just some people aren't, you know, fit to be in film, and you really got to, like, one thing that I learned, and I'm sure James Altucher will tell you this with the power of No, you do have a choice in the matter. And, you know, I feel like, if there's, like, if you're on a set and it's just going to be trouble, and you just have a bad vibe about something, trust your gut. And you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to say, No, I know, like, some people are afraid, like, Oh, I'm not going to get a call back. I'm not going to get another job, I'm not going to get paid. What am I going to do? It's like, No, don't worry about it. Like, if you're in a situation where there's a no benefit, like, why would you want to keep continuing to do that? I've had situations where people offered me contracts to work for their production company, and I'm not. I can't, you know, read contracts and, you know, pull, you know, no, no legal guy or anything like that. But I can. I can read them enough to tell them when I'm being screwed, and I would pass them around to to people who do know how to read contracts. Like, this doesn't look right. Can you can you read this over for me, and I remember specifically there was one friend of mine who was like, Is this like a, like, a Hollywood contract from like, the 1930s like, because you're not going to make anything. From, if you sign this,

Dave Bullis 1:40:26
Well, basically, was it? Were they just trying to say, like, you're not gonna make anything, and trying to, like, control your rights? Because, like, I actually had, if somebody present me a contract one time to help, to basically, co write a script and help co and co produce the feature in direct terms, it even said you're not paying, getting paid anything. It was like, what we're paying and we're paying the amount of he wrote in 0.00,

David Powers 1:40:50
Wow. They have wrote, they even wrote out $0.00

Dave Bullis 1:40:54
And I said, Wild Earth, but I signed this, yeah. And it's like, well, it's experience. I don't need any more experience in, like, student film stuff. You know what I mean? Like, I said, like, you and I were talking about this earlier. You can watch some of these bad movies and you can see how they mirror student films. It's like, I always turn I use the term student film with money, yeah? Because it basically, hey, it's not two people talking on a backdrop anymore, yeah, although Bigfoot versus DB Cooper, yeah, keep talking about that movie by the guy. DB Cooper was obviously just in an office somewhere going, ma'am, I have a note. You know what? I mean. It's just like, Okay, you're just in an office. We got it. You can't film one on the freaking plane. But yeah, plenty of shirtless guys to go around.

David Powers 1:41:37
Yeah, exactly. Well, this, this contract to purchase. Well, the one that I'm thinking of right now, it was really just kind of like, you do all this work for us, and we'll give you this small percentage for getting us clients and off the back end, yeah. And actually, was, it was funny. I had a friend of mine, you know, go through the contract, and I gave him a counter offer, which was like, basically the reverse, because I was the basically the intent of my reply was, like, I'm on to you guys. And this looks like a contract that, you know, in nicer terms, it looked like a contract that he probably just found online. Yeah, that's the exact which a lot of people do. So, you know, keep in mind, filmmakers out there, be careful of people that just print stuff offline that they don't even look at. Yeah, and

Dave Bullis 1:42:28
Because it looks like a nice contract, I had that done with me before. And I said, is this, there was a website that actually had this guy made, a website to give people free film contracts. And like I would see, keep See, keep seeing the same exact like, paragraphing and space. And I kept saying, like, is there some place of like, oh yeah, I found it, but yeah, I'm sorry.

David Powers 1:42:46
I didn't mean to remember it's like, and plus, like these people in particular, I know that they had no lawyer or anything like that, to write that this thing for them. So basically, we just tour be in the friend of mine. We tore apart the the contract piece by piece. Well, not physically, but you know, like, we basically gave them counterpoint, saying, like, Okay, you have this written down. Well, I'll be willing to do this instead. And it was funny, they accepted on all terms, but then I just ended up saying no, because I was like, All right, well, if they're willing to offer me this kind of ridiculous contract in the first place. What's stopping them from doing something, you know, equally as stupid, or even worse, down the road? Yeah, so, you know, just really showed me their true colors, and I was not afraid to say no and just leave it at that. And again, like, feel like, with some filmmakers, whether they do stuff like they're they're set, or they aren't. There's always like, some sort of paranoia of, like, somebody got hired me for another gig or something like that. Because just like, you know, just just the hustle of jumping from one thing to another, it's a lot of work, and it's very tiring, and it's just stuff like that that I just, I just didn't want to put up with anymore. So I was like, You know what? Right now, for me, the New York Asian Film Festival is like they treat me, right? Love the people that I work with. You know, this is what I love about film and actually make make better contacts through through New York Asian than I do through anything that I've ever done, even Victoria's Secret, I've made better context in new IGN than I did at Victoria's Secret So,

Dave Bullis 1:44:24
Yeah, and honestly, you probably would have a better time at the New York Asian Film Festival.

David Powers 1:44:28
Yeah, actually, even for Victoria's Secret, like, it was fun the first time, the second go around, it was just kind of, actually, when I did the Victoria's Secret show the first time around, that was kind of like, you know, once you're behind the scenes, I'm pretty sure, like, most people there, were just, like, so caught up in the glitz and the glam. But the first thing that came to mind was like, wow, this is like, so fake,

Dave Bullis 1:44:49
I imagine too. Like, I know I've seen backstage like, I've seen like, on TV, yeah, it's like, so chaotic, yeah? Because they're like, everyone's moving at 10,000 miles an hour, yeah? Like, oh my god, where the hell is this? Thing I love, you know what? I mean, they're just running around. You're like, Jesus Christ, yeah, just get the models out there. Come on. I mean, you know, and some of their, some of the costumes, obviously, you can never wear any down the street. It's just particular fashion, yeah? I mean, they've got wings and shit on me. Yeah? Imagine wearing those in New York. You'd get worse in New York, yeah, actually, because I because every time I've ever seen anybody get out of line, even a little bit in New York, it's just like they, they just get put down immediately. And what I mean by that is like people who walk slow, even foreigners who come over here, like immigrants who come over here, yeah, they wouldn't know what I'm saying is they, they know right away that you don't walk slow in New York. I remember this Muslim man was like, he was like, there was this woman walking so in front of him, and he actually turned to her and he said, he goes, it's fucking New York. You gotta walk, yeah.

David Powers 1:45:48
And I'm like, yo, if you, if you just, like, stand around and, like, look at something like, you're like, Crossfire,

Dave Bullis 1:45:58
Exactly, you're gonna get a push in grandma,

David Powers 1:46:01
Like, like, even if you have nowhere to go, you go, you're trying to get through as fast as possible. Yes, yes. I've even had people like, who they're just, like, not from here, and they're walking with me somewhere. And I remember there was, like, one person in particular who's like, walk very fast. Like, I didn't even notice it until they pointed it out. I'm like, Yeah, you're right. And then I was just, you know, it all became clear to me.

Dave Bullis 1:46:26
I there was a time a friend of mine, we came, we went to New York with a group of his friends. Yeah, they were from the middle of nowhere in, like, Kansas or Iowa. I mean, I mean middle of nowhere. And they stopped, they saw New York for the first time, and, like, what the hell yeah. And they were wanting to take pictures of everything. And I said, Look, they're gonna get, like, steam old. So I said, you take this group. I'm gonna take this group. And I started talking to him, like, if you want to take a picture, you tell me, and I will tell you where to stand, so somebody doesn't come by and fucking lose their mind. And you'll be like, What the fuck you doing? Ah, yeah. And because it happens, you know, it just, yeah, so, like, you know, there's certain places and, like, thankfully they but, like, they went to, you know, Wawa is right, yeah. Okay, so we went to Wawa, and they couldn't order from the thing the screens, because they didn't understand, like, what that it was going but they would actually time out, yeah, before they could actually order it, and the whole thing would reset.

David Powers 1:47:21
Wow. That's like, such like, I don't know it's like, such a common thing now, like, for a lot of convenience stores, and even just, like, some like, regular places, just to place your order on a tablet or something.

Dave Bullis 1:47:32
The greatest was a few years ago, but still, yeah, but yeah, as we sort of go full circle with this, you know, you and I both got burned out. We both have day jobs now. We're like, you know what? You know, you went to the Asia Film Festival to, sort of like, look, this is my outlet. I started this podcast. And out of frustration, man, I honestly because of a couple of reasons. And now, you know, we're trying to start doing this stuff again, you know, doing our own projects. And it just sort of circles back to what the ultimate we was talking about, where, if you don't follow your dreams, this is what you're doing to yourself. You're picking glass out of your knees. You're doing all this other stuff, yeah,

David Powers 1:48:09
Crawling on your hands and knees, or the friggin chain around your neck, getting a hot parking lot.

Dave Bullis 1:48:13
And it really does tie in, because it's like you're torturing yourself, yeah? I mean, you're working harder for less,

David Powers 1:48:19
Yeah, and it's just kind of like, I don't know, like, when you really badly want to do something, you know, I'm slowly but surely, you know, making my my way back into film, like it's, I have to admit it to myself, like I still want to do some of this, maybe not to a degree that I used to do, but I still love it. And, you know, least, you know, thankfully for me, like I have the New York nation Film Festival to be able to work in like, some sort of capacity to film where I can actually, effectively, you know, help people enjoy, like, these amazing films, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:48:54
And, I mean, also, I think to picking and choosing is really good, because I did the same thing where I would just say yes to every project. Yeah, that's bad. I mean, I told you the stories, yeah. You know, the guy, the director waking up late on their shoot the morning of, and two hours later, he's still nothing, yeah, yeah, cuz he's, I overslept. I'm coming now, and Tommy was those story too, yeah, exactly, yeah. But yeah, that stuff too, but, like, and then the guy was talking about forgot the key, and it's just, you know, it's like, one thing after another, after Yeah. And eventually you're like, What the hell calling the locksmith doesn't work. And, you know, it's all that good stuff, yeah, the whole it's like, what am I doing this for? Exactly, yeah. And then you get, you get burned out. And, you know, again, you know, we have our own stories about getting burned out and so, so what are your plans for the rest of this year? Like, what are you hoping to

David Powers 1:49:40
Right now it's just mainly focusing on the New York Asian Film Festival. We're actually next this coming week. We've been we've been doing this basically like a YouTube like chat show, talk show called NYAFF chat. NYAFF chat. And we, we started with, like, a few episodes, like, we're starting to get into the groove of things, and this week we're going to be having having a guest come in and I'm actually going to be directing the latest episode. So this is actually my, my return to the director's chair.

Dave Bullis 1:50:30
See, see, I knew you were going to drop a bombshell.

David Powers 1:50:32
So, so I am like directing again. Like the last thing I directed was with a friend of mine named Stefan versus we did a music video for our friend Baron called the remedy. And, you know, that was, Oh, my God, I'm trying to think of, like, how long ago that was? Had to be, like, three or four years, which is funny, because, like, even though I haven't really done anything, like, you know, super big in film. It's just really been helping out with with New York Asian people still ask me, like, oh, like, what are you gonna do next? Or, like, if I take a trip to LA, they're like, oh, except for work, like, so, like, just even, like, with, like, friends of mine, like, they they want me to get back in. They know what I'm capable of. So, you know, nav chat with with New York Asian Film Festival. I'm going to be back in the director seat directing those. Our next guest is kanji furatachi, who's, he's kind of like one of those like that guys in Japanese movies. He was in our our audience award winner last year called too young to die. And we're going to be filming it at film movement, who's distributing kanjis, new film harmonium, to the US. So we're going to be interviewing him there, in their, in their, their office space. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be fun. I, you know, it's like, I've heard of this guy. I've seen movies that that, you know, he's been in. So technically, I'm gonna be, like, directing him for this talk show.

Dave Bullis 1:52:12
So what are you gonna say? Like, what types of directions are you gonna give him? Like, like, talk louder and just be like, I'm trying to make a joke here, but, yeah, it's why people attempt to humor like, I remember, I always used to say as a joke I would tell people like, a directing tip is always to say things that mean nothing, yeah, just to make yourself like you don't mean like. I don't really believe that this is a chair. Yeah, I you know what I mean. And we sort of keep like, what the can I make it more of a chip? Well, it's like, it doesn't really mean anything, but,

David Powers 1:52:45
Well, this kind of, like, just, like, started because, you know, I didn't really, like, have any plans to, to direct or anything for, for this project. It was just kind of actually coming from me, like, giving them, like, a lot of feedback. Like, there's just be, like, you know, certain, like these, like nervous tics that they would do, like, on the camera, or, like, one of the guys would have, like, their arms folded the entire time, like, no, unfold your arms. And like, just like one where they were drinking beer, and like, the the the beer, like, logo was on the cup. And like, like, don't, don't drink at don't drink the beer. Like, just, just leave it there. Let it be a prop in front of you. You don't have to keep drinking it while you're talking. And, you know, just like, offering feedback about, like, body language, and, you know, like eye contact amongst you know them, and you know, just like the the spacing in between them, like, it's kind of like, even though I haven't, like, done film in a while, like, all this stuff is like, coming back to me, I'm looking at the camera, I'm looking at the like, you're doing it all wrong. And just like, I just want to, like, yell at everybody and flip a table, and

Dave Bullis 1:53:53
Are you gonna start wearing like, like, leather chaps and have a riding crop, like, the old fashioned directors, yes, and just be like a slave driver, beret, exactly, beret with a bullhorn and leather chaps and a horse whip, yeah, like a riding crop. So you're just always like, you always slap, because that's what you do. You slap against your leather chaps.

David Powers 1:54:15
Yeah Cecil Devill or something like that, one of those old timey, you know, Director Exactly. Yeah. I have, like, the big megaphone, yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:54:23
You're like, two feet away from the actors, like we are right now, yeah? Just like screaming like, god damn power is like, just, just calm down.

David Powers 1:54:31
Yeah, can't work with any of these people.

Dave Bullis 1:54:35
Oh, now you can't hear how your eardrums blown up.

David Powers 1:54:37
So it was just kind of like stuff like that. And, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're trying to do something new, because the festival just happens once a year. We also do the old school kung fu fest, oh, cool, which is, like a program that we used to do a while back. We recently bought it back for like, the last, like, last, like, three years. Yes. So it's like, okay, so essentially, we're just doing the New York Asian Film Festival and the old school kung fu festival. So it's like, rest of the year, it's kind of like there, it's just like, this big gap. So we're doing, you know, nav chat to, like, fill that gap. So like, there's a presence for us throughout the year to get the word out about the festival. You know, we're also, actually, I'm also in charge of their Instagram, so it's like me and like a few other people who are, you know, just trying to, like, again, like, just like, fill that like time that like, nothing's happening with something I say so people are aware of us, because it's a really unique situation. Because, you know, the group that you know puts us all together is called subway cinema, and it's kind of like, well, how do you market like a group that just does, like, film programs and like, we don't have our own theater. Usually, like, if you hear about like, something like Fantastic Fest, like that happens at the Alamo draft house. They have their own theater, and, you know, the these groups that put them on it's not like, it's not like people, you know, like talk about subway cinema or anything like that. It's a really unique, you know, thing to market. So we're just kind of like, okay, well, what's the potential that we have here? Because we know people love the festival we have, like, these, like, you know, like a list, you know, Asian you know, guests coming in, and it's kind of like, okay, well, what can we do so people, like, know who we are, and, like, if we do, like, a special event, like old school kung fu fest, or in the past, you know, we've, we've also had the New York Korean Film Festival. So how do we get people to, you know, piggyback from the New York Asian Film Festival, to go to these other stuff that we're doing, or sometimes we might do, like a one off screening. So one of the great things about New York Asian is the audience. They're really passionate about these films. They really, you know, know, you know so much about these actors, actresses and directors and everybody, and just like for me, how working with with New York Asian as a volunteer to a staff member, like I have always been constantly in contact with the audience, because we do, like, You know, prize giveaways and, like, the Audience Award. So, like, when they hand this, like, stuff back, you know, they're either, you know, giving us feedback, or, like, I'm just curious. You know, you know why these people are coming? How did they find out about it? Because, you know, I just, I heard through word of mouth, like, how did these people find out about it? That's, I'm, like, really curious. And you know what keeps them coming back? Like, we have our hardcore people, you know, coming in, and we have like friends, like my friend Christina, who flies in from like, Texas, you know, every year for the New York Asian Film Festival. So, you know, feedback from the audience is a big, big thing. It's like, you know, you don't know what you're doing right or doing wrong, unless you get that feedback, and it's crucial. And some of these people end up, you know, becoming friends of mine. Like hanging out with them, and, hey, it's also a great way to network, too. There's been some, like, interesting people that like, who are in the business, who come every year, they just want to watch movies and they love, you know, you know, the different genres that we that we include from all the different countries and stuff. And recently, we're taking more of a focus on, like, I think Southeast Asia, like, there's like, we're showing more Filipino movies and like from Vietnam and stuff like that, not just like, Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, which everybody knows and loves. So we're really broadening our scope these days. I know, like, for instance, last year, like, we brought, like, one of the biggest, you know, Filipino actors, John crew, John Lloyd cruise, you know, to the festival. And, you know, really showing people what, you know, what's, what's being like offered in all these different Asian countries. And so far, the feedback has been, like, amazing. You know, back in the day, we showed a lot of genre movies, and now, you know, we're 16 years old, if we're having our quinceanera, oh, you know, we're, we're maturing. So, you know, it's, it's becoming evident in the festival itself. You know, as you know, some genre movies, they're just not as good as they used to be. So, you know, we're, we're just just doing our best to bring, like the best quality, you know, Asian films, you know, to to North America for people to enjoy.

Dave Bullis 1:59:42
If you ever want a recommendation for a fun Filipino movie, check out for your height only starring Wang Wang.

David Powers 2:00:00
Oh, well worth.

Dave Bullis 2:00:01
Okay, I was gonna say there's actually, I was in New York, and somebody actually had, and we were at a film festival, and somebody actually had a shirt that just said Wang, Wang, and just a picture of him. And I, wow. I wonder how many people, other than complete film nerds with no life like me, know who the hell wing one is? Well, you seem, you know who went,

David Powers 2:00:22
Yeah, you know, that's, like, one of the original, like YouTube viral videos. So that the new Manuma guy, yeah, that's it for people just like, oh, it's that, like, that, like midget from wherever that, like, does Kung Fu, and he's like a James Bond guy,

Dave Bullis 2:00:36
Yeah, for your height only. And then the sequel was, what it was called. It was like another kind of, like a spoof name, yeah, I think it was all spoof of the spy who loves me, yeah. I think it was maybe the, the, the way, my who loved me, I don't know, but, but, yeah, that, but that's just my recommendation. But all kidding aside, though that it's great though that you're having your kids in Europe, and that, you know, the again, yeah, not you personally, but, but sweet 16 years, but, but no, because, again, it's always great to see these different films from other cultures, which is why I'm always against when art becomes homogenous and all and art becomes like this thing where you have to follow these set of guidelines and rules. No, you have to be like mate Neo in the Matrix, anyone who tells you that shit? Okay, marry the end, when Neo becomes the one, yes, you have to look up and just hold up your hand and say no and let it all go away. And that's what you have to do. And totally because otherwise, we're all just gonna be sitting around watching the same art that everybody else has, that you know, and we it's just gonna be the same movie no matter where you are, and you can't have that. It's gotta be an expression of your culture, expression of yourself, and it's all that good stuff. That's why I'm glad you know that there's, there's film festivals like this out there, and just to get sort of a different vibe. And you know, America is the melting pot, and God bless America. Yeah, seriously, man. I mean, you can in America, you can go out and grab some Mexican food, watch an Asian American Film Festival. You get the first amendment right so you can talk shit on people. God bless the First Amendment right? Because if it was first amendment right, wasn't around. I mean, you know me, I just love the fans would be screwed. Exactly wrestling fans would be done. Man, yeah, which

David Powers 2:02:17
They couldn't complain about raw every Monday slate that much slanders online, yeah, and

Dave Bullis 2:02:24
Some of these wrestles with these shoot interviews. They would, they would be gone too well.

David Powers 2:02:29
Now it's all podcast, so there's, there's no like, shoot interviews, because they go on stuff getting paid by, like, some guy to film them, like, do a shoot interview. Now they're just, like, going for free on a podcast.

Dave Bullis 2:02:39
I bet, see, I don't get that, like, I don't understand why they would do that. Like, it has to be a reason for it. I have a theory, because, like, on key talk. Man, now, for instance, you're the Honky Tonk Man, right? Oh, yeah. So he goes around to, like, these places, it just does live shows. And I know, I know Bruce pitcher is doing the exact same thing. And by the way, I want to give a shout out to Connie Conrad, who does the Bruce pitcher podcast. Now he did the Ric Flair podcast. I actually we follow each other on on Twitter, and he's actually really good guy, so shout out to him. He's actually supported the podcast a lot nice So, and also, I don't want to mention any names, but there's a person who's involved with wrestling who's a potential guest, so I'm just closing in. Okay, now, okay, well, you know who I'm talking about, as you already told me, I just want to make sure it's another Dave, yeah. And so, yeah. So what do you think about Twin Peaks tomorrow? It's Saturday, where we're recording this. I'm so, what do you think about my god, I can't wait. I think it's gonna be freaking Yeah.

David Powers 2:03:38
Like, I remember, like, as a kid, like, I didn't even know I was a David Lynch fan. I would watch like the Alpha Man. I'm like, this movie is great and, and I didn't see racer head until, like, years later, but a friend of mine brought my attention to, like, Blue Velvet. And that's like, when I like, do who directed it, and I'm like, This guy's good.

Dave Bullis 2:03:58
And because you watched it, you you know it's good. But when you're that age, you don't know why it's good.

David Powers 2:04:04
Yeah, you just, you just, it's just, like a je ne sais quoi when, yes, when something works out, like, it's, it's evident to anyone that you don't have to have a film background to appreciate somebody's art or anything like that. You just watch it and like, you just know it's good.

Dave Bullis 2:04:19
Yeah, my movie was big trouble, Little China, which is still my favorite movie of all time. Like, I remember watching that movie as a kid and being like, this is fucking awesome. And I don't same here, and I don't know why it's awesome, because I was a kid, yeah, but it's just fucking cool, yeah. So Dave, we've been talking for about two hours now. Jesus Christ, yes, sir. Zero is usually like an hour, yeah, about an hour or so does it take? So I'm just gonna put this one episode. Okay, so in closing, any final thoughts

David Powers 2:04:49
Just come out June 30 through July 15 to Film Society of Lincoln Center as well as SVA theater for the 16th annual New York Asian Film Festival.

Dave Bullis 2:05:00
Yeah, and I'm gonna link down the show notes everybody. I really, again, I just want to encourage everyone to attend. It is a really great festival, and I'm just, it's just, again, serendipitous that Dave happened to be, you know, now, an actual staff member for it. But again, I encourage everyone to attend. It's a great festival. I actually heard about it a few years ago from a friend of mine. And it was just at James Hong. You have James Hong. No, he was, so he was like, Wayne's. He was Wayne's girlfriend's dad and Wayne's World too. He was, he was low pan and big picture, little, oh, yeah, well, so he what?

David Powers 2:05:42
Yeah, I What was that he brought up the festival?

Dave Bullis 2:05:45
No, he I was actually had a thing for him, and somebody else there brought the festival. Okay, so, so, yeah, I don't know why I went for Wayne's World to First Cassandra said instead of anything, yeah, is it a Kung Fu Panda? Yeah? Like, I bring up Wade's world too. Yeah. I'm gonna link to all that in the show notes. Everybody and Dave, we will find you out online.

David Powers 2:06:05
I think like best right now is just to follow all the New York Asian social media outlets on Instagram. We're New York Asian Film Festival. One big word, Facebook. Just type in, New York Asian Film Festival. You'll find us through there. What else we also got Twitter, which is just at Subway cinema, which is like our mother company, and like, if you contact, like, any of those outlets, you can get a hold of me.

Dave Bullis 2:06:32
All right, so because I noticed that Dave isn't on Twitter as much as it used to be.

David Powers 2:06:36
No, it's like some old photo of me shaking hands with nose Ferrari. Yeah, exactly. I have been like, I don't even remember the last time I posted on there.

Dave Bullis 2:06:43
That was that, how I remember you. I was like, man, Dave shaking hands of nosferatu. That's, that's why I would remember you for the rest of my life,

David Powers 2:06:50
Just you know, a benefactor for from my projects,

Dave Bullis 2:06:55
Public domain. Come on, baby. Dave Powers, it's been awesome having you on man, it's we've been talking for so long online first and then we finally got to meet today, and we did the podcast. It's been awesome having you on man, yes.

David Powers 2:07:10
Irresistible force meets the immovable object.

Dave Bullis 2:07:12
Seriously, it's like Hogan warrior, yes. Now I want to bring you back on seriously, because I want to see what you're up to, and then I should keep myself accountable too. And as we get back into doing this, man, as we take some of the warriors advice and just go out there and just do it, baby, always believe, always believe, Dave. Thanks a lot man.

David Powers 2:07:31
Thank you for having me man.

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BPS 460: Making Independent Films Without Hollywood or a Huge Budget with David Ash

February 26, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome David Ash, a filmmaker who proves that creativity and responsibility can coexist. Based in the Twin Cities, Ash has built a life that blends a demanding corporate career, a family of four, and a thriving passion for storytelling through film. With a background in business administration and a full-time job as a treasury director, he is the definition of a weekend warrior — someone who squeezes every possible moment out of his schedule to write, direct, and produce movies. His journey shows that you don’t need to quit your job, move to Hollywood, or have a massive budget to make great films. What you need, according to Ash, is commitment, consistency, and the willingness to learn by doing.

David’s filmmaking journey began not in a studio, but in a contest. After entering a screenwriting competition that brought him to Los Angeles, he realized that while Hollywood admired talent, it rarely offered open doors to outsiders. Instead of waiting for someone to hand him an opportunity, he decided to make his own. He immersed himself in local workshops, learned camera techniques, studied editing, and began working on short films. His first feature-length experiment, Love: A Documentary, was a mockumentary produced for just $800 — a testament to what can be accomplished when creativity is prioritized over resources. That project, humble as it was, gave him the confidence and hands-on experience to take the next step toward more ambitious films.

As his storytelling evolved, Ash developed a style that combined emotional realism with psychological depth. His most acclaimed work, Twin Cities, explores themes of identity, mortality, and redemption through a lens of everyday realism. The film was a turning point — both artistically and personally — showing how powerful stories can emerge from seemingly ordinary lives. With no studio backing, he handled nearly every aspect of production himself, from writing and directing to navigating the complex logistics of filming around work and family obligations. His process may not have been glamorous, but it was deeply fulfilling. For David, filmmaking is less about chasing fame and more about personal expression — an act of discovery that connects his inner world with the outside one.

One of the most inspiring aspects of David’s journey is his practical approach to the creative process. He emphasizes planning and structure but always leaves room for experimentation and intuition. He doesn’t believe in waiting for perfect conditions — because they never come. “If you wait for the right time to make a movie,” he says, “you’ll never make it.” That philosophy has not only driven his filmmaking but also influenced his outlook on life. By treating creativity as a discipline rather than a luxury, he’s managed to produce meaningful work while maintaining balance in his career and home life.

Beyond his own films, David encourages other aspiring filmmakers to start wherever they are. He often mentors local creators and reminds them that filmmaking is more accessible than ever. Affordable digital cameras, editing software, and online resources have eliminated many of the old barriers to entry. What remains, he insists, is the challenge of motivation — the courage to take the first step. His own story is living proof that passion and persistence can turn the impossible into reality.

David Ash represents the new wave of independent filmmakers: grounded, determined, and driven by purpose rather than prestige. His career is a masterclass in making art on your own terms — carving out time, embracing constraints, and never losing sight of the joy of creation. In an industry obsessed with overnight success, he stands as a reminder that the most meaningful journeys are built one weekend at a time.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On today's episode, I chat with a filmmaker who actually lives two lives, which I think all of us do because, you know, in the day, we work a day job, and then we make films on the weekends or at night or wherever we can, until we can make movies full time. You know, it's kind of like a side gig or a side hustle or a weekend warrior type thing. So usually, if you're like me, you kind of hide that side you kind of make, you know, I have two linkedins, I have two different Twitters, etc, because you don't want them to bleed into each other, because usually it doesn't end well. My next guest, he actually constantly just goes out and says, Yeah, I make films the weekend. See, I was in the paper, and I also work at this company. So he's kind of like the Iron Man. He know he's just at the end he's, oh, by the way, I'm Iron Man. I do all this stuff, and if you don't like it, whatever, but, but he's embraced it, and it's worked very well for him. We're going to talk about his new movie called Twin Cities, about living a double life. And we're talking about filmmaking and winning writing contests and being flown out to LA and then he saw the frustration not being able to make his own movies because these guys weren't going to make it. We're going to talk about all that stuff. Really cool interview. So without further ado, with guest David Ash.

David Ash 3:01
Yeah long story short, I did well enough one of these creating contests that they brought back to LA to kind of do the LA thing and meet with some producers and stuff like that. And, you know, I really realized from that experience that basically there's no way how they're gonna make my movie. And that became pretty apparent, not that became pretty apparent, not that they didn't like it just wasn't the kind of stuff that they were interested in. So from there, you know, pretty much on the flight from from LA, I decided I wanted to just learn how to make films so that they actually got made, rather than just stacking up on my my shelf here. So, so we have a IFP, I'm not sure if that or not. It's independent feature project, which is a kind of local thing here in the Twin Cities, for filmmaking, photography. And I started taking a lot of classes there. You know, everything had taken filmmaking, screenwriting, directing, you know, editing, lighting, audio, anything they would provide I would, I would take it and just kind of learned it that way. And then, you know, got into one of the classes. I think it was intro to film production, and in the class, we actually had to make a short film. So I made a short film in the class, just using other students in the class. We shot it about two and a half hours. Cost about 15 bucks to make it. And it actually got to some festivals, and, you know, played in a few of these fests, not just here, but, you know, internationally. And that was really kind of the spark for the whole thing. So after that, the actually, the guy that was teaching that class asked me if I wanted to keep making films. I'm like, Yeah, of course I do. So he was actually also the facilities director of the IFP, so we could get our equipment for free. So from there, we just started making short films. I think we made five or six in about a year. This is now probably 1112, years ago. So those did pretty well. Gotten some Fest and such. And then, you know, got a little tired of just making short films. And then I made my first feature about 10 years ago, was a mockumentary called Love a documentary. And we made the whole thing for 800 bucks. But, yeah, I think it would say $1,000 film, if you ask me. But you know, definitely not high budget. But that actually gotten some tests as well. And you know, from there, I've made two, two more, much more, bigger budget films since then, but that was really the short of the whole thing.

Dave Bullis 5:35
So you mentioned you have a degree in business administration, as do I. So it's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of ironic, because you and I see that's one of the reasons I want to talk to you, because you and I have a very similar path. Because I have a degree in business administration, I thought about going for an MBA, and I said, What the hell am I thinking? And and I decided, you know, I used to work at a college, and they were going to offer me a free masters, and I decided not to go that route. And it wasn't the MBA. There's a couple different options. And I thought, I don't feel like going for two more years of school for a degree that I just don't know if I'm going to fully use. So, you know, but it was, was very similar, though, because during college, I realized that I didn't want to really do go into business or anything like that. So it's, you know, it's just kind of ironic, because, you know, if you got that business degree, you know, and you know, you mentioned that you started taking some screenwriting courses. We know were these, like online seminars.

David Ash 6:34
Now, there's a place here called the it's actually a literary loft. It's a place that offers you just writing classes of all kind. And one was a screenwriting class. It was at night, you know, once a week for probably two months. It wasn't anything huge, and that was really the only screenwriting class I had, but it was, it really helped to kind of understand the mechanics of the film, you know, writing works and such. So that was, that was how I got started screenwriting, as far as the educational part of it.

Dave Bullis 7:00
So, so when you did take that course, you know, what, like, what were some of the things that, really, you know, stood out for, for you for taking that course,

David Ash 7:09
You know, I think the first thing was, you know, script, I shouldn't be 400 pages. I think that was a good learning, you know, because I was just writing and writing, and the teachers like, you know, you got to pair this thing down quite a bit. We can't have, you know, 50 pages of just dialog in a row. It was just kind of learning film language and, you know, three act structure, all that kind of good stuff. So I was really a babe in the woods before I took that class. And then I've kind of learned more as I've done it since then. But it was really just the basics, and then, you know, earning your, you know, your ending, that kind of thing. I was kind of big thing with that instructor. But that was really just the start of, I think I've learned a lot since then, just doing the screenwriting, the filmmaking, but that was the first time I actually had understood you couldn't just write four or 500 pages and call that a film, right?

Dave Bullis 8:01
Yeah, and definitely. And just to go along with that, it's also about, you know, writing a scene. What makes a scene, putting all those together, actually, making sure the screenplay actually, you know, works. And it's not just basically a collection of, you know, someone's day as they sort of just go through the minutia, you know, is, I mean, because you you knew writing going into this so you, I'm sure you knew about tension and building characters already, right?

David Ash 8:29
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, not, not in the form of filmmaking, though I kind of, you know, I knew it for the literary side of things. And, you know, the biggest thing just was, for me, it was learning that, you know you can do in film with, you know, three or four lines and the right shots, what you would normally do in three or four pages in a book, for example, and just paring everything down to and something I'm still learning, I'll put everything down to just exactly what you need, nothing more. So that takes a long time to learn. If you're not used to that, you want to just kind of expound on everything ad nauseam, which I learned very quickly, was not the way to go about it.

Dave Bullis 9:05
Yeah, very true, yeah, you know. And what I was just getting at was, you know, just about coming to building characters, you know, like character descriptions and stuff like that, obviously, you know, you can't put in, like Netflix Fitzgerald prose, where, you know, he describes the curtains or whatever, you know, for a couple pages. But, you know, it's about economy of words. So, you know, if it was all over, did you actually have a, you know, a 90 or 100 page screenplay?

David Ash 9:31
Yeah, I think I got it down to maybe 21, 30. You know, that was the script I used to kind of get into the contest and and such. And you know, some of those contests, if you do well enough, they give you, like, free feedback. So that was a good learning as well. And you know, for me, the biggest thing that helped me with screenwriting was just having to actually make the damn things myself right, because then you realize if you're making these kind of amateur mistakes, once you get on the set, you know it's your responsibility to make it in a film, and you learn very quickly. You know, when you're directing, what you're what you're writing, that the script has to be something that's directable, so that just kind of diving in and starting to make films after I had, you know, just only written a few scripts, was definitely the best education I had, you know, in my whole career, was just go ahead and doing it and getting progressively better at understanding what a script should should do and how it should look, in terms of, you know, building scenes and such, and you can't replace just having to do it yourself, I think any kind of film, film school or class. So that's my biggest advice to filmmakers and folks wanting to film like he's always, you know, don't, don't necessarily go to film school. Just, you know, start making a film even it's going to suck and it will suck. You know, the first day will definitely suck, but you have to just kind of learn by doing otherwise. You know, you're not going to quite internalize what you need to internalize in terms of how it's actually done.

Dave Bullis 11:11
Yeah, it's kind of like what Rob Rodriguez says. You know, basically you have, like, a bunch of bad movies in you, and you have to get them out as soon as possible.

David Ash 11:19
Absolutely true. Yeah, I still, if you probably haven't gotten out yet, but we're getting there, you know, depending how you talk to I think we're gotten most of them out.

Dave Bullis 11:27
Yeah, I found the key is, is to just when you're first starting out, especially is to aim low. And what I mean by that is, don't say like, Hey, listen, I'm gonna go out this weekend. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot a short film for 10 grand, and we're gonna have blood and squibs and, you know, blanks and everything else, and we need, I mean, I think that's where just a lot of filmmakers tend to shoot themselves in the foot.

David Ash 11:52
Yeah, that's absolutely true. I've said that before in similar kind of interviews and panels about, you know, you wonder if you're having to make what you write, you realize very quickly that you have to write to what you can make, right? You have to write something you can actually shoot. And I, you know, I learned that pretty early on. I made a short film. I want to get into it, but it was just a effing nightmare because I fell in love with the script and then trying to make it became just a vortex of pain and agony for everyone involved for a very long time. And I was like, you know, I'm never again going to write a script that I can't actually make very, you know, reasonably underneath the budget that I've got. Otherwise it's just pointless and just leads to a lot of frustration and people hating you.

Dave Bullis 12:40
Yeah, that's very true. But I think we all have those stories, you know, Dave, I think we all those stories where we tried to do something a little too much too quickly, and it ended up, you know, we kind of brought some people down with us. I made a short film one time that literally everything that could go wrong went wrong. And finally we were like, This was after the whole day, everything was going wrong, right? And we had to go outside to shoot this one scene. And I thought, mate, hey, listen, you know what? This can't go wrong, right? This cannot go wrong, Dave, I shit you not. It starts pouring rain like you didn't believe and I said to myself, I go this. This can't be happening. Like, I have to be in bed dreaming that this is all just happening and I'm gonna wake up. But no, it's, it was real life. Unfortunately, I just, I ended up shortly then after that, the director of cinematography actually just like vanished, and I couldn't find and I was like, What the hell. And so I and just, you know, just to surmise that whole story, I actually met him or reconnect with him, probably a few years ago, and I actually asked him, I said, Did I do something? Was it that day that did it? And he goes, Well, that day was bad. He goes, but the whole but he's like, the whole reason was, and there was a whole other reason that was going on in his personal life that thankfully had nothing to do with me. I didn't want to be responsible for this guy quitting film.

David Ash 14:08
Yeah, well, it's good to talk to him. Otherwise, your whole life, thought he hated you. So that's just good,

Dave Bullis 14:09
No, but you mentioned your short film that when everything went wrong. And, you know, again, I think we all have those. And so as you you know, started to go through, you know, deciding to make, you know, more films, you know, you worked a day job at the same time.

David Ash 14:27
Yeah, I always have that's, that's kind of, I think the unique thing about what I do is that, yeah, I didn't just, you know, go into writing. After I got the NBA, actually went into business, and I've, this is probably 20 years ago. Graduate from grad school and been in corporate finance ever since. So, yeah, I'm currently a executive lab here in St Paul. And, you know, that's a pretty evolving gig. You know, probably 5060, hours a week on that side of things. I've got. For kids, ages 13 through 17, that is a little consuming, pretty much all the time. And then, yeah, then doing the film stuff on top of that. So it's really been, you know, just trying to find a way to do it and just doing it. You know, it's no real easy explanation for, you know, making six short films or three pictures the last 13 years, other than just willing yourself to do it, because it's, you got to love it or you won't, you won't do it, I guess is the easiest thing I'd say. But it's, it's not for everybody. But I think I have a pretty good example of, you know, if you want to make a film, get into filmmaking. You know, I mentioned some of the budgets that I worked on were pretty much peanuts. And you really don't have an excuse for at least not trying it, given the way the technology is now and how you can make a film for cheap. And you just kind of do it when you have time. And, you know, I think, if nothing else, my story is something that hopefully can inspire folks to just, you know, not say I can't do this because I've got a day job and I've got a family and I've got everything else in my life. Because, you know, if I were waiting for that stuff to not be around, I would never made a film. So I'm glad I've done it. It's kind of exhausting sometimes, but it's also gives you energy, because it makes you, you know, want to get up and keep keep pushing at it. So I'll keep doing it. You know, it's something I love to do.

Dave Bullis 16:31
So I wanted to ask, what, when? So does he ever come back? Does it ever sort of, so, what I mean by that is, Do people ever like search for you online, and they'll say, Hey, Dave, is this you? Or something like that, where you're well, because at work, I imagine that happens because, I mean, imagine people are because, you know, you're the Treasury director, and I imagine you probably, you know, people look you up on LinkedIn or what have you, and I'm sure they're probably like, Hey, Dave, is this you in the local paper, or whatever?

David Ash 17:01
Yeah, yeah, it happens a lot. I mean, it it really started happening last fall. We did our most recent feature. Twin Cities actually had its local premiere here in October. And as part of that, there was big feature stories in both the the Minneapolis paper as well as the St Paul paper in consecutive Sundays. And that kind of reaches pretty much everybody in the state that reads, you know. So there was a lot of that, you know, at work on Monday, like, Wow, I did not. He did this because I don't talk about it at work, and I don't really, it's not something that a lot of folks are he doesn't, doesn't doesn't come up in a lot of meetings about finance and accounting. Let's put that way. But yeah, folks definitely at that point were very supportive and very interested, but also very shocked that I was doing this on the side, in addition to, you know, being a treasury director for E collab. So it's most people think it's great. Some people were just like, What the fuck are you doing? You know, but overall, most positive,

Dave Bullis 18:06
Yeah, I was expecting that a lot of people would be like, Oh, hey, Dave, you know, why are you doing this and this? Or maybe even saying, because, I mean that that's happened to it to a lot of different people on this podcast, where they've worked a day job, and, you know, they worked, you know, what the hell. But did anybody ever come up to you and like, pitch like, hey, you know, I have a friend or daughter or cousin that wants to be in movies?

David Ash 18:29
Yeah. I mean, I I get that more like when I do some panels now and then, I always have one personal kind of, sheepishly walk up to me. I had one not too long ago, and it was her husband always wanted to write a screenplay, and we meet with them, and, you know, basically be his mentor. I I'll talk to him. I'm not going to, you know, going to readjust my life for his film career. But that's, that's something that's pretty common there, and then that work. It's more like, Hey, I once knew a person that wrote a book, and that's pretty cool, too. And, you know, there's not many filmmakers in corporate finance, I would just say, as a rule, but everyone knows somebody that does something sort of similar, and they want to talk to you about which I think is great, you know. But yeah, I've had that experience quite a bit actually.

Dave Bullis 19:15
So have you ever actually met with somebody? So if somebody has ever requested it, like, Hey, Dave, will you just meet my husband, wife or whatever? Have you ever actually sat down and met somebody?

David Ash 19:34
I'm probably not, probably always figure out a way out of it. Nothing's going to mind. I I'll have a drink with somebody, like, after a film panel and that kind of thing, and, but nothing like formal like, hey, please show me how to do what you've been doing. But I'm always, I usually just gonna send some links to some stuff and, and given contact with the IFP here, which is a great place, like, I got started, to get started and throw them that way, because they got all the classes there to get involved and all that. But yeah, I don't generally do a lot of one to one mentoring, I guess I'd say,

Dave Bullis 20:17
Yes, I noticed that comes up a lot too. Is the whole like, Hey, would you mind meeting somebody? I agreed to it one time, and I think the the person I met was had a different idea of what screenwriting was or is. Basically, I just started talking about screenwriting theory. I said, you know, what are your questions? What do you have? What do you want to know? And I did this for a friend. You know, this is kind of like a professional acquaintance, slash kind of sort of a friend, if you know what I mean. And I met with her and went with her daughter, and I her daughter, I think was just kind of a little taken aback, and didn't really have any questions. I think she was kind of expecting me to like, Hey, here's the key to all of this, and this is what unlocks all the doors,

David Ash 21:01
Right! Yeah, that's what folks, generally, I've talked to think as well, is that you can just kind of, like, to the extent I've talked to folks, but then when I do, it's generally like, you know, when you know, send me an email with how you did this, right? And it's like, well, it kind of takes 1214, years of work to kind of work to kind of get even to where I'm at, which is not exactly, you know, big budgets, big budget land, but yeah, it's folks think it's just something you just kind of write down on a piece of paper and you to somebody, you know,

Dave Bullis 21:34
Yes, and, and I once was out of writing a seminar slash pitch event, and this mutual friend of mine, you know, came walk up to me and said to me, you know, hey, Dave, I want you to meet somebody. And this guy, he was wanting to get into screenwriting. And every question was about basically money. Was like, do they still give people million dollar contracts this and that? I'm like, What do you care? You've been written anything like they could give them $10 billion what does it matter to you? Does it matter to you?

David Ash 22:03
Yeah, yeah. It said, yeah. Good thing to know about filmmaking is like, yeah. I think about half percent actually make a pretty good living at it. And the other 99.5 are just, you know, doing it because they love it, honestly. And most folks don't realize that, you know, they watch the Oscars, like, a few days ago. And I think that you're making film. That you're making films, you must be rolling and rolling in it. That's pretty much the opposite. You just have to do it and love it, and hopefully something comes through at some point. But otherwise, you know, I, I haven't made a ton of money, and I'm happy with what I've done. So, you know, that's usually the end result of this kind of stuff.

Dave Bullis 22:42
Yeah, yeah, right. And so, so just continue on with your with your journey, you know, after you, you know, we were told we before we get to Twin Cities, you know, I just want to ask you about any of the other short films. You know, before we talk about Twin Cities, is there anything else that that's sort of really like you wanted to, sort of like talk about, or discuss, to focus on, just because, you know, usually the short films, as you know, Dave, are kind of like the setup for a feature film.

David Ash 23:04
Yeah, it's a great way to get started. I would definitely recommend doing shorts. I've gone some filmmakers that just go directly into features, and I don't think that's the way to go. I mean, a lot of these shorts were five to 10 minutes, you know, some of them were like 50 bucks. But, you know, they all played a small to medium sized festivals, which is great, but I would definitely go that route. I think I would have not probably done any differently than i i did it if I had to do it over again, which was make five, five or six shorts, and then kind of get your your voice and what you want to do with film dialed in before you tackle a feature. So, you know, I would say, you know, do that and then put it online. You know, you're, you're not going to find a more ruthless audience than putting something on YouTube. So that's a good indoctrination to, you know, film criticism for you, because the comments there will, if you can, if you can stomach that, then you can probably sound like making a feature film, because that's, that's a great proving ground, I think, is getting on YouTube and getting some clicks. We did have one that went pretty viral, a couple 100,000 I think, pretty quickly, and it was very politically oriented. And that's one thing I learned about, you know, that kind of, you know, getting short films out there is a bit politically oriented that it seems that folks were really ready to jump in on one side or the other on it. And that was definitely the most, the biggest short film we had was, was what had a pretty, pretty hard liberal bent to it. And you could get all of the, all the Trump, Trumpsters and such out of the woodwork to really, you know, share with their friends because they hate it so much, or vice versa. And, you know, I guess I'm trying to say, if you want clicks, make it politically oriented on one side of the other. And that's kind of the milieu right now. And online is political stuff. If that folks just want to either attack it vociferously and send their friends who they hate it, or send their friends they love it. But that was my experience with short filmmaking. Was that we made some films I thought were much better, but they didn't have anywhere near the traction of that.

Dave Bullis 25:11
And that was the Obamacare website explanation, right?

David Ash 25:17
No, it was actually not that one, that one, that one was out there too, but it was about, it was about a father talking to a son, and the father was very hardcore right wing, and the son was very liberal, and kind of setting him straight as they went along the path there. And we did it for actually a political action group called Live liberal, and they asked us to make the short films myself and this other guy that I mentioned that got me into filmmaking, and we did it just for them, and then just kind of took off from there. But, yeah, the Obama thing was also pretty political, but this one was very at a very defined point of view, which really kind of set some folks off, which was fine with me.

Dave Bullis 26:03
I mean, well, you're at least invoking some kind of emotion, right? I know that's what we're after, right?

David Ash 26:09
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

Dave Bullis 26:12
So, you know, with the Obamacare website explanation, I haven't actually seen that, and I actually saw that, and I was like, did he make a video for about the Obamacare website? Because I know it's possible, but then, you know, I imagine it was probably, you know, like a parody video,

David Ash 26:26
Yeah, that was basically that was going back a few years. That was when Obama, the website, if you recall, didn't exactly set the world on fire, and they had a ton of problems with it. So he had this kind of Obama fam. It was very earnest, kind of Rose Garden explanation for all the things that have gone wrong with it and why that was okay and it was still going to be great. And what i did was i Subtitled that with what he was actually trying to say, which was, of course, heavily satirized, and that kind of thing. So it was, you know, I set myself a liberal, but that was pretty much making fun of Obama, which went the other way as the other short film. So I'll say that if you want to check it out, but that did not know as much any clicks as the one that pissed off the Republicans.

Dave Bullis 27:17
So, so once you actually started, you know, you know, making these short films, you know, making them for, you know, 50, 80, 100 bucks. You mentioned you made a another film for 1000 the feature film for 1000 you know, you know. So what was the, you know, the impetus there, you know, did you start with the budget, or did you sort of write it and say, you know, hey, look, it's only gonna cost 1000 to make this.

David Ash 27:41
No, it actually, that would actually start as a short film. And it was the whole setup was, was cheap to begin with. It was basically a mockumentary about a guy who, you know, worked in an office, and he thought that God had come to him and implored him to spread love and joy throughout the world. So it was this kind of found footage, type of Doc about this guy and his, you know, very jaded co workers, and, you know, kind of played off the tension between that so you had kind of scenes of this person talking, which actually was played by myself, and then scenes of things just going horribly wrong in the office as he tried to kind of impart this spiritual journey he was on, and we shot it actually at IFP, using the equipment from IFP, and, you know, some actually professional actors, believe it or not, from the area, they were willing to do it for, you know, pizza and Diet Coke. And it was literally like 800 bucks for 83 minute feature film, which, again, Cindy, if you want to watch it or link to your podcast listeners. And it actually played at some festivals and did very well, won award. And it was, you know, people either loved it or hated it, and those that loved it really loved it, and those that hate it really hate it. But it was, it was really proving for me that I actually could make a feature film. And until then, it was just kind of something that other people did. And, you know, we started with the short film, and I just keep writing more and more pages along the lines of this story. And before we knew we had 40 or 50 minutes, I'm like, Well, if it's gonna be that long, let's make it a feature. And we just flew it out to a full arc of a film, I think, was 83 minutes in total, and just did it on, you know, literally less than 1000 bucks.

Dave Bullis 29:23
And, you know, once you actually were able to shoot this, you know, what, what locations were you like using? Did you use, you know, did you, I mean, do you ever while, while I'm thinking of it, I'll kind of shoot myself with another question, do you ever, do you ever shoot at your office? I mean, obviously, if you answer that, you don't have to. But if that's like the secret.

David Ash 29:41
But no, we not at my office, but we shot at for both, a couple scenes in Twin Cities and a couple scenes in 2021 my second feature, we shot at my wife's office, which is was Minnesota Public Radio. So they, they were very, you know, accommodating that kind of endeavor, and they let us shoot there for free. And it was great. So I we shot in an office just online for the last, the last two pictures.

Dave Bullis 30:24
So they just basically, do they ask you, like, anything like the usual two questions are, is there nudity and is there blood? That's, every time I've walked up to locations, that is the two questions, is there violence, like blood, or is there nudity and and usually the answer is, yes, no.

David Ash 30:43
There's actually a no on both those accounts for us, even better, even better. But they didn't ask. We could have done that. I should have probably thrown that in there, you know. So no, no duty or violence. But not because we couldn't.

Dave Bullis 30:57
It's usually when, when you when you're asking those things they do. They ask you about insurance.

David Ash 30:57
They were just incredibly relaxed about the whole thing. No, they didn't ask shit. It was just kind of like, we're gonna come in on a Saturday and we're gonna shoot from, you know, eight to five. And, you know, my wife came with me, because she works there, and didn't really ask any questions. They were, they thought it was great. So I think that's you got to really be careful. You choose. I don't think my E collab would have been that way where I work. So they were just like, hey, just go ahead and do it.

Dave Bullis 31:30
So got lucky, very lucky, my friend. See, that's the thing, man, when you have a connect there and you're able to come in professional and also, you know, you're still in an area where, hey, filmmaking is, you know, people have been beat over the head with it, like a sack of oranges. You're kind of like, hey, look, you know, it's still cool and neat. And, you know, Dave's wife works here and this and that, you know, because, because, you know, they always say in LA and New York, as soon as we ask the film somewhere, it becomes, like a huge pain in the ass. And they're like, another thing must have, you know what I mean. And it just, it doesn't have that that cool cache anymore. So Philly was kind of like that for a while. Now it's back up to be like, Hey, you're doing something. Are Awesome. I want to help you out, but those are the things that for all the listeners I keep harping on about locations. It's the blood Gore, the violence, the nudity. They sometimes ask about insurance. I mean, you can always sign waivers, but, I mean, if they allow you just to like, hey, look, you know, we trust you and you're not gonna do anything crazy. You know that that you can't beat that. It's amazing.

David Ash 32:29
Yeah, that was actually probably the easiest location we had. I mean, we had some that were not, not easy. We shot a day at a hospital, er parking lot, and it was, I didn't have this. I didn't have permission for it. We got permission for everything else, but we were going to get it, but we needed this very key scene, which is actually the last scene in the film. And we shot pretty much an entire day, and it was all an interior of of of my SUV. And about halfway through, they came out with security, and they said, you know, what? What the fuck are you doing here, basically. And I'm not sure what, what words I strung together to get them to go away, but somehow I did it, and we just kept shooting. And it, you know, day turn to night, and they finally came out with more security dudes and probably some firearms and and such. And they're like, Okay, whatever you're gonna tell us, it's not gonna work. You need to get the hell out of here. And fortunately, we were done except for one shot, so we went to a different parking lot where we could just do the exterior shot and and patch together and work perfectly. But that was probably the most stressful day of shooting I've ever had, because you had, you know, er, parking lot and kind of swarming security guards, and I knew we had, we probably couldn't shoot anywhere else and get the same kind of shot, and we had to have the scene to make the film work. So, you know, I wouldn't recommend that, but we did it.

Dave Bullis 34:05
So lesson learned. Well, you know that that's amazing, that you were able to get them go away the first time.

David Ash 34:11
Yeah, I recall what I said. I probably pulled some, I have no idea, pulled my butt. I can, could not tell you, but they, I think they just scratched their heads and left, and we just Okay, let's keep shooting. And we powered through. And we've had, you know, I've had a few similar shoots like that, where you're just really on a tight deadline, but they always know you're, you're that you're supposed to be there. But this was one where we just said, Fuck it. We're just gonna do it, even though we're not supposed to be there. And, you know, it's in the film so it works out.

Dave Bullis 34:43
You, I mean, like, literally, you guys just rolled up into that hospital parking lot and, like, it was shoot here.

David Ash 34:48
Yeah, they had, I just got, like, I got having eight or nine other er parking lots, and I wanted something that where we could, it's hard to describe. I want a certain. Shot, and I wanted to have, like, the emergency parking lot sign in the background, and to make it all kind of come together. And it was the only parking lot I could find that works. I really wanted to shoot there. I didn't think we'd have a shot in hell if we asked. So we just kind of just did it, you know.

Dave Bullis 35:22
And that's gorilla filmmaking, right? You got to just, you just got to go out there and do it, you know, I imagine. And I'm just gonna just, just food for thought, Dave, I'm gonna imagine that. When they probably approached you, they probably said, Are you guys supposed to be here or something like that? And you probably said, oh, yeah, yeah, we're just finishing up and this and that. And they probably went away. They go check, because I've seen that happen before. They're like, Oh, are you guys supposed to be here? Yes. And then by the time they get back, you either gone or they forgotten, or they don't care anymore. They to even pass it up the line and and, but it seems like that time they actually did. They actually was probably.

David Ash 35:57
Three or four hours later. That's a thing I knew there. If they're gonna go check, I think it was kind of like, well, these guys will leave pretty soon. Anyway, we'll let this one go, but we're out there four or five hours later. They're probably okay. This is not cool. So I'm not, I can't say I'm proud of that, but it turned out great, you know? And that's, that's, that's the non Hollywood filmmaking right there.

Dave Bullis 36:23
Yeah, it's the true indie film, spirit, man, my friend, it's, that's what that is. That's what you got to do. You got to, you got to steal locations at times. And that's, you know, I once, I was talking to Scott McMahon, who runs film Trooper, and I told him, I said, I think that's the number one problem for most filmmakers, is getting locations. And I honestly, I often said, you know, be a great idea. It could never work. But here's my idea, Dave, a it's like a hub, kind of like Facebook, where you could friend another filmmaker. And let's say, you know, you you and I both lived and let's just say Boise Idaho, well, I have film connections. And, you know, you have film connections. Well, we could sort of put up the put up on a poster or whatever. Hey, look. This is who I know at this hospital. This is what they did. They let me shoot here. You know what I mean? Like, obviously you wouldn't do it to your for your own house, unless you were insane. But you know, if they, if you what, they will let you shoot somewhere. Like, hey, this is an abandoned house. This is how I got to shoot there. Blah, blah. And that's basically, it almost become, like this collage of sorts of city by city of all the places where you could, where you could shoot, and that are, that are friend friendly to filmmakers.

David Ash 37:34
Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, that's, you know, someone we got through the film war. They would post locations online, and you'd call the film or say, hey, look that that's a film friendly place. And they would always say, Yes, but I love your idea. I mean anything like that, because it's very daunting when you start on indie film to not know where you can shoot it. And you know, when you don't have a lot of cash to give these guys to shoot, you're really just kind of begging, which I've done a lot of, but you kind of just kind of learn how to what they want to hear, you know. Like I said, insurance. We generally do get insurance and waivers, all that kind of stuff, you know. And you figure out, you know what, what to say to get the location and but every location I think I've had even, you know, where we're supposed to be, it's, it's super stressful, because usually it's, in my case, it's been, you know, a bar that opens at 11 for lunch. So you've got, like, four in the morning till 1130 and then you got to get in six pages or something. And every single location shoot I've been on, besides my wife's office, it's been that kind of pressure, and that's because comes with the territory, I think, you know, that's again, the non Hollywood filmmaking, that you just somehow make it work, right?

Dave Bullis 38:49
Yeah, exactly, because I, and I've been there before too, man, where I've shown up on a Saturday morning at like, six or 7am and they're like, Oh yeah, well, we're gonna open today at one or whatever. And you're like, All right, well, here we go. Let's get let's get rolling with this bad boy. And so, I mean, and I've been there, man, where people don't show up, you know, people show up late, or ultra late. I mean, I, you know, at some point I should just do a podcast, one episode, where I just tell stories, but all the other horror stories I have, but I remember. I mean, some of these were people would show up, not at all, and you're sitting there calling them, and they're like, Oh, I forgot today was the thing. And I'm like, Well, I sent you 10,000 emails. How the hell did you fit this?

David Ash 39:32
Yeah, that's that is the the most you can count on. That more than else in any film. I guess somebody's not gonna show up or show up late. And you know that that's that's a given. I mean, Twin Cities another kind of example of working around stuff. Have you seen the film or not? But the lead character, the lead character, Emily, is played by Bethany Ford Binkley, and she's awesome.But she was actually had like a five month old kid when we were shooting, so she'd sometimes have to bring her baby on set, and it would use a nanny there for but we'd be through halfway through a really intense scene, it's going, well, the baby start crying. And that would be done to that. And those were a few shoots like that. So it was always something. It is always something when you're working on this kind of level of filmmaking, and you just kind of have to not get frustrated and just, you know, work around it somehow. But, yeah, it's everything in the kitchen sink for every, every, every shoot that I've been on at this level.

Dave Bullis 40:50
Yeah, you mentioned Twin Cities, and I wanted to ask you about that film now, because that's, you know, I know you actually debuted that film, and, you know, it's been playing in a few festivals. So I wanted to ask, you know, if you could just go take us through the film, you know, give us a log line, if you could?

David Ash 41:08
Yeah. So it's actually a sequel to 2021 my second feature film, but it's a very kind of spiritual sequel, versus like a traditional sequel, but it picks up four years later with these lead characters, John, Emily, and they're married now. And the elite character, Emily, as I mentioned, she's actually pregnant. Someone's pregnant with their first kid. And that kind of sends the husband, John into a tailspin. And you know, things are really falling apart, and looks like it's all going to kind of turn a shit for for the couple and their lives. And he gets his cancer diagnosis, which shakes him out of his his downward spiral, and sets him on kind of a new course in life, to make amends with his wife, and to kind of find his God and go on this sort of spiritual journey to find himself. And that's the basic side of the film. There is about halfway through a very, I would say, extreme twist, which I generally don't give away, in case folks want to see the film. But it really, from that point on, becomes a much different kind of film, in terms of, I would say, a different kind of film, but the plot kind of turns on its head and becomes a sort of a more reflective type of narrative structure. That is really the reason why it's called Twin Cities, besides the fact I live here, it's, it's got a kind of dualistic narrative that plays out after this very jarring twist to the plot. And it, you know, it kind of gets bananas from there at that point. So that's probably as much I can tell you without spoiling the whole damn thing. But that's, that's the basic setup of the film.

Dave Bullis 43:01
And so, you know, once you actually wrote the screenplay for this, Dave, you know, how did you go about raising the funds to actually shoot this? Did you sell finance this movie?

David Ash 43:10
Most of it, yeah. I mean, generally, what I've done is I just put my annual bonus my job. And I, you know, I just put my bonus in it when I'm making a film. And I never really use my actual paycheck for filmmaking. So you know, for this one, I used a couple bonuses, and I used, I got a snow bait from the Minnesota Film Board. They they paid for a good chunk of it through their rebate program, which is really an incentive to to film in Minnesota. And that was that was very helpful as well.

Dave Bullis 43:47
So when you told your wife you wanted to make a film with the bonus, did she just? Did you think you were crazy or, or she used to it like, oh, okay, David,

David Ash 43:58
Yeah, no, she's been great. I mean, she's got kind of her own artistic endeavors, so it kind of humans out. I won't go into that, but it kind of, we both have this sort of side thing. We do our job. She's a HR director, and has her own kind of career, but then she also does a lot of artistic stuff on the side that balances out what I do. So we're very accounting with each other, like, you know, hey, I want to, you know, spend some cash on this thing that I really am passionate about. And it really wasn't very hard to sell. I did the same thing for a second film, and she was around for that as well. So it, I think it'd be different if I was saying, Well, look, you know, we're gonna have trouble maybe making mortgage now, because I use my paycheck for this, the fact that's really just my bonus, it's kind of like, well, it's found one anyway, and, you know, go for it. So she's been great, honestly, not kind of the opposite of what you might expect, but she's been fantastic about the whole thing,

Dave Bullis 44:53
Yeah, and, you know, that's good that, you know, she's supportive of this, and so we're. Can be able to find out more about Twin Cities.

David Ash 45:03
Yeah, so website is just Twin Cities, the film.com We've got our trailer on there, a ton of stuff, you know, clips from the film, synopsis, a bunch of reviews for the film. We've actually got, I think, really great reviews for the film. So it's a lot of that on there, cast and crew bios. You know, all the, all the stuff you'd want on a website. More is on there,

Dave Bullis 45:27
And I will link to that in the show notes but Dave, just, just in closing, you know, I wanted to ask, is there anything we get a chance to talk about that you want to just to say right now? Anything want to discuss right now or, or maybe it's just something you want to say to put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

David Ash 45:44
Um, yeah, I guess. Well, two things. I mean, first of all, what I'm working on now, I've been working on a TV series since we finished Twin Cities production about a year, year and a half ago. So that's kind of my next thing. So I'm, you know, you know, doing press for the film, but also kind of trying to, you know, generate some possible interest in in this. I think it's gonna be a nine episode, first season series I'm working on that hopefully we'll get some external financing for and not use my bonus for that. So that's the first thing, is just kind of throwing that out there, that that's sort of my next project, and I'm really excited about it. Yeah, beyond that, I think, you know, you know, I think what's interesting about my story, probably the reason I'd be honest, is because I've got this whole other life besides filmmaking. So, you know, I do try to encourage folks that want to get into filmmaking, but think that they can't because they've got this, you know, very consuming day job or anything else in life that think is is not gonna let it happen, that that's possible. And you really just need to start and just do it, you know. Rather than you know, think about doing it, or reading books about doing it and and such. If you want to make it into filming, I would say, you know, start with a two minute film. And whatever money you have for, if it's a $10.10 bucks you got laying around, make a $10.02 minute film. You got 100 bucks. Me 100 film. But, you know, just encourage folks to, if they've always wanted to get into filmmaking, just do it. And if you go to my website and go to the contact page, I think that goes directly to my email. If you are interested this kind of thing, you want to kind of know more about how I've, you know, been making this kind of life work with filmmaking and everything else you know, definitely email me and I can help you out as much as I can. But that's, that's the big thing I want to get across as well to your audience, is that, you know, trying to encourage folks to to get into filmmaking that maybe are not sure if they they can or have the time to do it.

Dave Bullis 47:43
Yeah! Just don't ask you for mentorships, right? Like, don't ask to take you meet somebody.

David Ash 47:48
Yeah, I was probably, it was probably overly, you know, whatever about that, but I, I'm happy to impart whatever advice I have. But, yeah, I can't do a full time mentorship at this point, unfortunately, but maybe someday that'll be part of the mix. But right now, it's not

Dave Bullis 48:04
What you know. It's like I say Dave, when any, anybody who listens to this podcast or what have you asked to meet me for coffee or to meet me, meet me for coffee, or what have you and or whatever, I always say this. I said it's pointless. If you shot me an email, it would, it would do you 10 times the benefit than meeting me for coffee, right? Because we both have to drive out there. Gotta find parking. It's gonna be crowded, it's gonna be loud. And what, you know, if you, if you send an email, it's, you know, you could do it from anywhere. You do it on your way to work or whatever, and you get a lot more from it, you know, maybe not in the short, short run, but over the long run, if you just keep going back and forth, it's a lot it's worth a lot more. Maybe even one email in general is worth a lot more, because you could actually just detail things out, and then you also have a written transcription almost of what the meeting would have been. I just have never or the second part is, you know, just meet me at an event. You know, if I'm ever at one of these events, the events, the blacklist Philly, I might end up going to one of their events. I'm not sure, though I haven't, I don't know. I'm kind of networked event out, Dave, I don't know if you are, but I'm just like, people invite me all the time to these things. And I'm like, You know what? I've done a ton of them when I when I was just starting out, and I got burned out of them real quick, and I haven't been back since. You know, it's just, I just sometimes feel it's a lot of, you know, I was once, I'm part of a screenwriting group, and every meeting, we had a new batch of people come in, right? So it was always like bringing people up to speed about what screenwriting is. And then it'd be like February, and then by the end of, middle of summer, like, yeah, we've had 50, 60, 70, people come through here, but we we have never gotten past like teaching the basis of screenwriting, right?

David Ash 49:48
Yeah, I hear you, man.

Dave Bullis 50:00
So, Dave, where can we find you out online?

David Ash 50:05
I think the best place to start is that twincitiesthefilm.com I've put most everything I'm on working on in terms of the film. I should say most everything from the film was on there. I haven't done a work study yet for the series I'm working on that's going to come at some point. If you want to go to the website for my second film, 2021 and it's 2021thefilm.com, if you want to see that film, we actually got distribution for that film, and it's on Amazon Prime. You know they can see that for free. If you have Amazon Prime, just go to 2021 put that in search engine for Amazon. It should take you to the film. We got distribution for twin cities as well. So that'll be on Amazon later this year, and hopefully a few other paper places besides Amazon. So hopefully that'll be out there. You know, by fall, I'm guessing, yeah, beyond that, you know, you know, if you want to shoot me email, it's [email protected] Happy to to, you know, tell you whatever, whatever I know. I'm happy to to send them along as well. So that'll get started. But again, if you go to twincitiesthefilm.com, I've got, probably most of my stuff is, on, on that page that websites. It's a pretty, pretty stock site at this point.

Dave Bullis 51:26
Cool, Dave, it's been so great having you on, man. And yeah, I look forward to checking out your your stuff. Man. Again, we have a very similar path. That's why I wanted to have you on. And again, best of luck to you, my friend, and I will talk to you very soon.

David Ash 51:40
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. I really, really appreciate it. So thanks a lot.

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BPS 455: How to Turn a Script Into a Movie Without Hollywood’s Help with Chris Jay

January 22, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every creative career has a turning point — for Chris Jay, it came when his rock band Army of Freshmen hit the wall of a collapsing music industry. Years of touring and chasing label deals ended with the rise of digital downloads and the 2008 financial crash, forcing him to rethink everything. Out of that chaos came a bold new pursuit: filmmaking. With no formal training, Chris and his bandmate Aaron Goldberg set out to write and produce a comedy called The Bet. They weren’t chasing approval from Hollywood — they were determined to make their movie, no matter the odds.

The idea for The Bet came from Chris’s own curiosity about reconnecting with old crushes from school and wondering how those stories might turn out decades later. The script, written entirely from scratch and formatted by hand before they even discovered Final Draft, became a crash course in DIY filmmaking. They didn’t have a studio or a rich backer; instead, they raised funds through family, friends, and a pair of theatre producers from the UK who believed in the project. That resourcefulness defined every part of production — from filming in Ventura, California, to juggling countless roles on set, from catering to prop design.

Chris and his team faced every imaginable indie film obstacle: tight budgets, long hours, and post-production delays that nearly derailed the entire project. Yet through determination, collaboration, and sheer grit, they finished The Bet, securing distribution on iTunes, Amazon, and cable VOD. The film also features one of the final appearances of wrestling legend Roddy Piper — a personal highlight for Chris, who grew up a wrestling fan.

What began as a long shot became proof that independent filmmaking still thrives on passion over privilege. For Chris Jay, The Bet wasn’t just a film — it was a statement of creative survival. It showed that even when the industry turns its back, you can still make something lasting with the right mix of heart, humor, and hustle.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this week's episode, our guest is the front man and founder of The Rock Band army of freshmen. He's an actor and screenwriter his comedy film The bet releases this coming Tuesday, July the 26th 2016 and it'll be available on everywhere we available on, you know, Hulu. It'll be available on Google Play Store, iTunes Store, Xbox, PlayStation, all that good stuff. With guest, Chris Jay. Chris, how are you Sir?

Chris Jay 2:23
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Dave. I'm very, very happy to be here, and I'm going to correct you right out of the gate. I definitely don't star in this. I don't think anybody would want or need that, but I did throw myself in there because I figured if I never make another movie again, I'll probably kick myself in 20 years if I can't show my kid like there's your old man, you know?

Dave Bullis 2:42
Yeah, well, I usually just say star. I mean, usually it's, I don't know what else, because usually saying that I don't know

Chris Jay 2:49
Real loose term, even when I find myself writing press releases for the film, it's like, Wait, who's starring, who's featuring, who's cameo. I mean, that shit is kind of out the window these days. I just think like you said, everybody just says, starring in, you know, it could be, could be the groundskeeper in the background. And like, Yo, he stars in the new Guardians of the Galaxy. You know, it's crazy.

Dave Bullis 3:09
Yeah, you always because, like, for me, I've always sporadically appeared in shows, so I never know what to say. I mean, do you say featured extra? Do you say, You know what? I mean, it's like,

Chris Jay 3:19
How weird is featured extra say, You know what I mean? That just sounds weird, like it's, I don't know, it's so funny all the terms, but you get all those head shots, man, um, I'll tell you, when we were cast in the movie, you'll get a kick out of this. It was a really interesting experience. But you look on the back of these resumes, Dave and some of these people, you don't know who the person is. You've never heard of them, but they've been on the coolest stuff in the world, like, Oh my God, you are on friends, and you're on Seinfeld and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then at the bottom, there's, like, a little note that just says featured extra, you know? It's like, wait a minute, you're like, an extra just showing up for lunch, which is badass, you know what? I mean. But it's crazy that you put this on your resume, you know?

Dave Bullis 3:57
Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, every, every acting thing I've ever done, I have been a featured extra and, like, always sunny, you know, I was in a and again, a pre interview. We're talking about NFL films. I was, I was in an NFL films commercial with some sites. So it's just weird, you know what I mean?

Chris Jay 4:14
So you're like me, like you're a jack of all trades, not really successful at any of them, but god damn it, you're out there doing something, you know,

Dave Bullis 4:20
Exactly you got it. Love it. I love it. So, So, Chris, just to get started, you know, I wanted to ask, you know about your background. I mean, obviously, you know, you're a founder of The Rock Band army freshman. But I wanted to ask, you know, how did you actually transition into, you know, the idea, you know, of getting into of the film industry?

Chris Jay 4:39
On, great question. Dave, so basically, super quick background, I am in the band, army of freshmen, and ever since you've been doing this movie, we've been on a bit of a hiatus. But dude, we've been around for like, over 15 years. I was born and raised in New Jersey, close to you, up in Media, Pennsylvania, where you're at and when I was 17, I left home and I moved by myself to. California to do the rock and roll thing. I mean, there was two things I love in my life. I mean, I always loved music and I always loved movies. Quite frankly, nothing else really interests me, period. I like wrestling, too, and boxing, but that's getting off off topic. But with that said, so I did the music thing. Man and army of freshmen was one of those bands that didn't blow up. We were always opening up for bigger bands, but we'd be like, the first band on the bill, like we'd come and play the Trocadero in Philly or the TLA, right? But we wouldn't be the band on the marquee. We would be the band that you didn't know that played first, right? And it was, it was awesome, man. We got to travel around the world. And, I mean, I put my blood, sweat, tears, heart. I spent my whole 20s and practically early 30s, doing army of freshmen. And right around the time that we were close to finally signing a major label deal in the late 2000s which in the old music industry, was like, you know, that was the goal, right? That was the goal. And dude downloading came, and it came like a violent, terrible, evil wave, and it literally destroyed bands of my size. We were the middle class bands, if that makes sense, you know, like we weren't the big boys, but we weren't the garage bands. We were just those hard working bands criss crossing the United States and Europe in minivans. You know, it was really honorable and noble, and you could make enough to maybe pay the rent and eat, right? But when downloading came and then the end, what the financial collapse in 2008 Dude, it just all went to hell. And you quick, you know, it was really, really ugly for the music business. And with that said, we were very close to signing to a major label, and the ANR guy that was ready to do the deal, literally, the financial collapse hit. They froze all signings for the year, right? So I'm like, Oh, my God, oh my God. What's going on? Literally, 30 days later, I called a check in to see how things are working and see if we could do the deal in January, something I had been working for basically my whole life, right? Dave, and the receptionist says he was fired, and there's nobody else to talk to. He was the only ANR guy that wanted us. So I kind of went through, I don't want to say, a depression, but I really had to take a hard look at my life. And I had always bounced around the idea of writing a screenplay, because I'm a writer like I would pay the bills, kind of doing freelance journalism for local newspapers and stuff, right? So I always wanted to write a film, just because I'm in, I'm in Southern California, right? Dave, like everybody, every waiter has got an idea for a movie, right? And I said it'd be fun to do, not even necessarily to make so I got with my partner in the band, Aaron Goldberg, who co wrote the screenplay with me, and I got in touch with a producer friend by the name of Reza riazi, who had produced one of our videos. And this is kind of like the key link here to the story. Reza kind of guided us along, so we were first time screenwriters, right? But he helped us. He kind of gave us just the, you know, just kind of the focus of what we're trying to do and trying to get across. And he kind of guided the screenplay, and we worked on it off and on for a while. We didn't sit down for like two weeks, Sylvester Stallone style, and Cram Out Rocky, you know, it was a work in progress here and there. We got to the point where we thought it was pretty good, and Reza thought the same thing, and we made the decision that I spent my whole life doing music, going in front of a Andr guys, you know, begging to get signed or get this or kiss butt, and giving demo tapes that I said, You know what? If we're going to do this movie, let's just do it right, like, no matter how much money we get, if we get $10,000 and we've got to turn it into a short film and shoot it in my garage on an iPhone, let's do it. Let's just not have anybody tell us we can't do this. I didn't want to be begging for people to read a screenplay, because think of that Dave, who the hell is going to read a raunchy comedy screenplay first time screenwriters. Oh, and they were in a rock band. I mean, that just sounds awful, like I wouldn't want to read that if that was the background and you gave it to me. So I kind of knew going in that we were going to have to do it on our own. And we set out at that point to let's make this movie. You know, Reza agreed to produce it, and he had produced some indie films before. So the good news is we had somebody helping us, and that's the key thing. I don't want you to think that we were just two guys from a band that just did all this. We had somebody guiding us, but there was no money. He just hopped on because I think at that point he had given us so much advice, he had taken a little sabbatical, because he had a film that really got taken from him and turned upside down, and he kind of moved into stand up. And I think this was an opportunity to like, Hey, maybe I can get back in the game a little bit, and let's find a young, hungry director. And that's basically the Genesis. I know that's a lot of backstory, but I think it's important to know, because we didn't come from movies at all. The closest we had to that was, I mean, I was an extra in one or two movies, a featured extra, right? And then also making our music videos. But that was it, man. I mean, we as screenwriters, went into this blind we just had that determination from the indie music world that we weren't gonna we were gonna do it, you know what? I mean, we came from a very DIY music background, and I think we sort of took the. His ethics, and put it into the film. So that's how we got to the point of, yes, we're making a movie, and there's a long backstory, and I'm sorry for that Dave.

Dave Bullis 10:20
Chris, everyone always likes to talk, and they talk a little more on my podcast what I'm trying to say. So please, you said you might ramble. Sometimes it's encouraged on this podcast.

Chris Jay 10:32
Well, you cut me off at any time. It's skinny, especially if you and I start talking cheese steaks. I mean, it's done. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 10:39
I completely understand, by the way. Speaking of cheesesteaks, what is your favorite cheesesteak place?

Chris Jay 10:44
I know this is sacrilege. Keep in mind, I didn't come from Philly. I came from Jersey, so I had to drive into the city. But pound for pound, I always like gyms on South Street.

Dave Bullis 10:52
Oh, Jim's is great. It's my second favorite place. What's your favorite my favorite place is John's roast pork.

Chris Jay 10:59
Oh, I've heard of that place. I've heard of that place. Is it that sensational?

Dave Bullis 11:04
Yeah, cuz it's different than all the other cheesesteak places. Once you have it, you really you understand what a cheesesteak is supposed to be.

Chris Jay 11:10
Next time I'm out there, you and I are going there. That's good. Just put it on the calendar.

Dave Bullis 11:15
Let's do it, man. It's right by the ECW arena, too. So you talk right there on a ship, Swanson and Redner. Right by Swanson. Oh, so you talk wrestling too, Dave. I'm impressed. Yeah, I could talk all day about professional wrestling before I got into film, I used to be a huge pro wrestling buff. Quick little mini, mini background. I don't want to talk too much about myself, but many, many background. Out of high school, I went right into, into pro wrestling school. I ended up working with King Kong Bundy and his promotion, and that was a whole, that was a whole adventure I could talk about hours about.

Chris Jay 11:45
So now, okay, we're getting we're veering far off track, but really quickly we'll circle this all around, because obviously there's wrestlers in my movie, so that's like, kind of like a connection. But um, did you ever get to have an indie match? Did you ever get to actually have a pro wrestling match?

Dave Bullis 12:00
I had one actual match, and that was really, where was it that it was in, I think was either Springfield or Exton Springfield or Drexel Hill. I meant it was a 20 man battle royal. It was all of the rookies of the school we were at. And that was my one and only professional wrestling match, because after that, I just wanted to get out of it, because I had to go to college, and my love affair wrestling was really, like, really burning out. And then basically, I still, if that's right around the time I ended up helping King Kong Bundy. So I had that match, sort of like, and I still had tons of contacts, and they were like, Oh, I hope you're not gonna leave. And I said, Yeah. I said, you know, I'm not six foot four, I'm five foot nine. You know what? I mean, I I'm a ginger who's gonna cheer a five foot nine ginger? Come on,

Chris Jay 12:50
Dude, that is too cool. But you got to say you had a professional wrestling match. I mean, like, that's a bucket list thing. I think for a lot of people myself included, that is awesome. Dude, that is so cool.

Dave Bullis 13:01
Well, thank you. I'll you know, if you ever want to talk about that, anytime,

Chris Jay 13:05
Kinetic energy here. We're both from the Philly South Jersey area. We both like Cheese Station. Both like wrestling. We both like movies. I mean this, this could get really awkward. Dude, by the end of this podcast, people are going to be like, disgusted, like these two guys love affairs. Ridiculous, man.

Dave Bullis 13:20
Well, most people tune me out anyway, so they're probably me too cool, man, cool. So, you know, just, you know, getting back to the back, you know. So I wanted to ask, you know, Chris, you know, where was the impetus of this idea to actually, for the screenplay? Like, did it? Did it come from, like a friend of yours? Or to come from an idea or a joke?

Chris Jay 13:40
It was an original idea that I had, and honestly, I think it was kind of inspired by the fact that being on tour in a band, right Dave, I got the opportunity to meet a lot of girls that I had gone to school with over the years, like, maybe, you know, you come to town and they live there, and they see that you're in town, and they come to a show, or you invite them, or we would go play in my hometown, in Cape May, a lot, where A lot, where a lot of people you went to school with still lived. And I was always fascinated to see where these girls that I had crushes on, where they ended up. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but just like man in the sixth grade, this girl was, you know, the hottest girl in school, or the girl that I just had a crush on, or wherever it may be. And you know what would happen if you met your crush 20 years later? Like, where are they? Who are they? And that kind of just kind of bounced around in my head, and at one point I don't have a eureka moment, or I remember it. I just always remember when I thought of movie ideas that that was at the top of my list, a guy gets in a bet where he's got to go back and meet every girl that he had a crush on in high school, because it's essentially just a fantasy that I assume I'd like to have. But the reality is, it's not going to be all good. Just because that girl was the cutest girl in sixth grade, she could be like, you know, a white trash drug addict. And I thought what would be funny about that premise is if the guy had to hook up with the. Girl, right? No matter what scenario she's in, he's got to bite the bullet and do so. And it just kind of sounded like it would be a good, fun, raunchy, wacky movie. And I just that was, that was the genesis. So I think it was kind of influenced by having met some of the girls I went to school with and being, hmm, geez, man, that was my crush. Glad that didn't work out, right? But at the same time. I think it lent itself to a good premise, and it, you know, just kind of once Aaron came in and we started writing it together. You know, that's the fun part about script writing. As much as you set it up, you go down different avenues with the script. The new characters get introduced, and things change. And I find that such a fun and fascinating process, how different the project is like. Because when you think about it, at first, because you're a writer, Dave, you know, you're a writer, Dave, you know, you see it just like this, word for word, and it's got to be like this. And these are the characters, and this is a story, but when you start writing that baby, these characters kind of take a life of their own and and even in a silly, raunchy movie like ours, directions, they start moving in different places, and, you know, motivations and scenes, and that's a fun process. I think it's really when you know, when you're just cooking with gas, and you really like where something's going with the script, that's a cool moment, man, that energy, if you can capture it. And I like writing with a partner, because I think you can really feed off people. I think it would be very difficult if I wrote a screenplay by myself, because you don't have that quality control the other person?

Dave Bullis 16:22
Yeah, you know, very true. And, you know, I, as I found, when writing, you know, sometimes I take it way too seriously, and it ends up I try to end up forcing things, you know what I mean, it's like. And then you realize you were supposed you got into writing because it's fun, right? Or you have something to say, or you want to explore something. You know what I mean. And you know that's why, you know, when you were discussing the idea creation and all these characters, you know that's what you need. You need to always, you know, be excited to come back to it when you because you got to write, you know, nobody sits down just writes out the whole thing in one, one fell swoop. You know, you come back and you write it in pieces. You know, you write three pages, five pages, and you got when you come back. You always have to have that excitement. And you know what I mean, you have to have that excitement of, okay, I see where it's going, what's going to happen now, I'm going to be just as surprised as the audience. You know what I mean. So when you were writing this, Chris, I want to ask you, did you buy any of those screenwriting books, like you McKees story or save the cap I play center? Did you buy any of those books?

Chris Jay 17:20
Umm, you know, I didn't, you're talking about the actual screenwriting books. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't, um, it was very, I mean, and again, I think I'm a little spoiled because of the fact that I am a writer, you know. So not that I'm a good writer, but I just had experience writing, you know, even in writing a 500 world article about a band, you still have a beginning and a middle and an end. So I think I understood the process to the point that I didn't. I didn't it just seemed weird to read a book, to tell me how to write a book, if that makes sense, you know. But I definitely grabbed, you know, once we're getting ready to make the movie, I ordered a book online that was like the real truth about indie filmmaking, a complete guide from top to bottom right, that kind of deal, you know. And you'll love this. But, um, you know the book now, I keep it by the bathroom. It's like the bathroom read, dude, the thing was made, like, five years ago, okay? And as I'm reading it, getting ready to make the movie, just looking for pointers. You know, half the information was defunct, and the book was only five years old. Like they were talking about, like, well, this new Netflix saying, nobody's really figured it out yet. And, you know, they're talking about lonely girl 15 was an internet phenomenon. But how can you I mean, and I'm like, my god, this is garbage. I mean, things are moving so fast in the world of technology and film that a book, and a definitive book on the subject in 2012 is now literally archaic, and that's that's wild to me. So it's almost like, What the hell do you read? Unless you read the most recent stuff on the internet? I don't know if anything could really help you know,

Dave Bullis 18:54
Yeah, absolutely. I have tons of I know there's a podcast you can't see, but to my left is tons and tons and tons of how to filmmaking books. I mean, virtually, I have every indie filmmaking book, screenwriting book, producing book you can get. And some of them are just like that. They're just completely Hey, you know, go grab your friends, grab a mini DV cam, you know, shoot some stuff in your backyard, and you know, you can send it to festivals. Well, now I don't have to do any of that. I could use my could use my phone. I don't need a DV tape. I could, you know, and edit an iMovie, or edit in Windows Movie Maker or Premiere or whatever. When I want to, I can just put it right to YouTube.

Chris Jay 19:31
Wild, huh? I mean, the same thing happened with music in terms of how quick you can go like you and I. Right now, can make the decision to start our duo, right? We could write a song, not in person, dude, we could write a song over freaking FaceTime together, right? We could record the conceivably, record the song and release it and have a website up, you know, with a social media account with before, before the sun goes down and, I mean, I'm allowed to curse, right? That's fucked up, dude, that's process isn't supposed to be like that, like, where's the growth, where's the learning. And I think the same thing has happened to film, where it's certainly much more complicated process than writing a song, of course, no doubt, right? But everything that you just said, you can still kind of do, and that's awesome, but it's also that double edged sword of it's really flooding the market and putting a lot of crap out there too. You know, people are, they just release everything, instead of, like, you know, where's the days of kind of just making movies in your backyard and nobody sees them but your parents, and then you slowly grow and get better at it. Now, kids are making their very first thing and throwing it up on YouTube, hoping they get like a viral thing. I don't know. It's just, it just seems it's like it's a hard time for the cream to you know, was it the cream rise to the top or whatever the saying is, I just, it's just really muddy, man. Technology has made things so awesome. We could never make the movie that we made without it. But at the same time, I am also aware that there's a lot of films. Maybe some people would think our film that are being made, and it's almost, you know, blocking the path for other movies. It's a weird time, man, I feel like we're just living in a very strange age, you know?

Dave Bullis 21:10
Oh yeah, absolutely we are. And, you know, it's funny, because there's a short film called panic attack, and it actually, I forget the guy who made it, but Hollywood found it, and they actually gave him the job of directing the remake of Evil Dead, okay, just because of that. Wow. So it's almost like, now, you know this whole avenue of YouTube and podcasting and self publishing, it's like they're bypassing not just one gatekeeper, but like 25 because now you're almost like your own Agent Manager. Because now you can say, oh, no, I don't want to sell this, these book rights, or I don't want to sell your rights. I want to sell this, I mean, but you're right, there is, there are a lot more players out there now. But you know, I think that as long as you have something that is that can stand above anybody else. I had Paul pedito on here, and he when he and I were talking about that exact same thing, because he was always saying, you know, he tells his film students, you know, you have to make something. And they're saying, well, there's like, 10 cochillian things on on YouTube right now. And he says, you have, you know, how do you stand out? How do you get on the front page of iTunes? How do you get on the front page of Netflix? You know what I mean? And it's just all, and it just, it really depends upon what's hot, your concept, how polished it is. I mean, you have a lot of different factors. Now, maybe it's the same factors always have been there, but they're always but, you know, they're always have to sort of work out like in your favor, like we were talking earlier, but in the pre interview, maybe, you know, some guy, some some days, some guy wakes up, has a great morning, and all of a sudden your TV pilot gets made. You know what I mean?

Chris Jay 22:41
Yeah, and that's Wow, man. It's a depressing thought, but it's just, I mean, yeah, I certainly don't want to go down the negative Road, for lack of a better word, but I think it's a terrifying prospect. I mean, I used to, and I keep falling back on music, but that's just who I am. And I think what's happening to the film world happened to the indie to the music world about 10 years ago, right? But yes, I used to tell kids, dude, just get in the van. Man, just do it. Dude, just go for it. Just do it. You know, good, bad, learn, go do it, dedicate some time. And now I don't say that, and it really freaks me out that if a kid comes to me and says, we just started a band, what do we do? I don't tell them to hop in a van. Where they gonna go, where they gonna play, who's gonna give a shit, you know? And I wonder, in some ways, if it's that similar to the film world, you know, like if a kid right out of the gate wants to do it. I mean, it's probably not, you know, I don't want to say going for the big time the brass ring, but it's probably much more honing your craft on web series and smaller things instead of jumping right into it, you know, guns blazing, you know, I just it's strange man, you know, and I come from such a different perspective, because I didn't have that educated film background that somebody like yourself does. So I think some of the reason we got this made was sheer tenacity and dumb luck and a lack of education. Because I think if we knew what we were getting into and how much time it would be and how expensive it would be, we probably wouldn't have done it, you know, and that's kind of that sometimes being naive can lead to good things if you're willing to put the work in. You know, a lot of people, I think, took mercy on us, Dave, they were just like, you're doing what? Like? You can't do that. Oh, god, okay, well, let me help you. Good luck. Good luck falling on your face on this one. Good luck making a feature film. Come on, you know. And somehow we pulled it off, but we surrounded ourselves with good people to help pull it off. But, I mean, man, people heard our budget, and people hear where we wanted to shoot it in Ventura, not Los Angeles. They were looking at us like we were lunatics, dude. I mean, like, you know, what the cool thing is, we proved a lot of people wrong. We got it done, but it was a painful, long process. It was not smooth sailing, you know,

Dave Bullis 24:47
Yeah, yeah, definitely, it definitely. I understand completely where you're coming from. And, you know, just to sort of, as we're talking about writing the BEX, I do want to talk about actually making a move, but yeah, as we're talking about when you're writing the bet, did you guys actually. Did you use final draft or fade in to write the movie? Do you use any software?

Chris Jay 25:03
Check this out. We were so naive. Aaron did the typing. I did the talking. We didn't really know about Final Draft. We had heard of it. We were kind of aware what it was. And I'm sure your listeners will be like, Are you kidding me? We were literally indenting every time a new character talked, like, the first draft or two drafts that we did, we turned it into, you know, Reza, who was kind of helping us and giving us some guidance, who ended up producing the film. And he was like, man. He was like, There's something wrong with your final draft. And we're like, What do you mean? He was like, Don't tell me you typed this. And we're like, yeah, he was like, Oh my God, you know what? I mean, he was like, Dude, he was like, That's remarkable. He was like, how long did this take? And we're like, What would take hours, you know, we'd write it and then spend another couple hours, like, indenting, indenting, indenting, centering, you know, bracketing. I mean, it was trial by fire, man, if you can believe that we did get final draft, and it was like a whole new world, you know, like, it just changed. Everything. But you like, literally, that's how backwards where it was, like, Mick Foley writing his biography on on pen and paper, you know, it's like, there's something kind of cool about that, but I can't believe we did it. I'd love to get those hours of my life back, you know?

Dave Bullis 26:17
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. You know, I know, like James Patterson and Quentin Tarantino, they still use, like, pad and pen. Wow. I still do it too sometimes. But now, you know what my the biggest con of that is, Chris is the fact that now you're ending up with like, notepads and, like, seriously, I have like, stacks of notebooks that I've been writing in, and I'm always sitting there going, you know, someday I'm gonna have to scan these things, yeah, yeah. And just, and just do away with it, because Evernote has changed my life, because I that's where I just, if I have an idea, I pull up my phone, go, okay, hold on. Let me just write this down real quick. Okay, so you know what I mean? I just type like that, and then I'll come back later on and put, you know, pull it all up, and then go, Okay, now I'll get into final draft or fade in, whatever I'm using.

Chris Jay 26:57
But do you wonder sometimes, I mean, not to get on a bigger, sort of like a deeper meaning. But, you know, do programs like that, have they have, they cheapen things a little bit. I mean, like, all the greats back in the day, they didn't have final draft, right? I mean, like, you know, when a guy like Mankiewicz was banging out Citizen Kane, he didn't have somebody indenting things for him. I mean, these guys are on typewriters, man, and then they bang scripts out. I mean, you just kind of wonder as much as it's made things easier, like, has it affected worth work ethic in a lot of ways, you know?

Dave Bullis 27:28
Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I want to say that. I hope it has just made it so they can concentrate, like guys like us, can just concentrate on the craft more without having to worry about stuff. Like, you know what? I mean, like, getting, you know, getting, you know, bogged down with that. I mean, technology, in of itself, is supposed to make things easier, like in the pre interview, we're talking about, if, when technology works, it's phenomenal. But that is good question. I mean, personally, I could never go back down to using anything else besides fine, yeah, so, I mean, like, it's if I ever had to go back, I would, I would probably, I don't know, take a header off the roof.

Chris Jay 28:04
Gotcha Understood? Understood you wouldn't be alone. Just be screenwriters. You probably live because you'd land on their corpses or something, you know,

Dave Bullis 28:12
Yeah, that's right with live because, like, somebody lived. James Patterson, when he does is he writes all longhand. He gives it all to a secretary. She put, like, types it all up, and then gives it back to him. And he has a problem. He has a process, and it's triple spaced, and that he can,

Chris Jay 28:26
If you have a secretary, you know, oh, yeah, aren't lucky enough to afford these type of things, yeah?

Dave Bullis 28:32
Well, yeah, that's what, that's what I was Gus was saying was, you know, he does have a secretary. I mean, that's why I think he can get away with it. And Tarantino, I don't know what he does. Maybe he has a secretary at some point.

Chris Jay 28:43
I imagine he's got a few at this point.

Dave Bullis 28:48
So, all right, so you know, we know you have written the bet. So I just want to take us through this process of, you know, you had the idea, you wrote the bet, you've actually got final drafts. You're able to actually correctly format it. So what was the point where you started pitching to people you know? Did and did you? Did you pitch to investors? Did you try to crowdfund this?

Chris Jay 29:08
Yeah, so, I mean, it's an important part of the story, and I think that's what people everybody's interested in that right? Where the hell you find the money? So when we decided to do it, okay, what we did, I'm giving you the step by step, we came up with three budgets. We didn't do one of these things where it has to be this amount of money, right? We came up with our bare bones, super backyard indie budget, right? We came up with, you know, our ideal budget. And we came up with something in the middle. And when I say ideal, we weren't asking for sick money, you know what I mean? We were saying, like, ideal for a micro budget movie. Okay? So we had these three different budgets. And basically we said, Let's initially go to some friends and family, like, you know. And again, we're not talking about all our, you know, broke music buddies, you know, we went to mom and dad, you know, aunts and uncles, um, Aaron and I, you know, literally pitched them personally. Couple people came in with just a little bit of money. We found a couple $1,000 to be completely blunt. And what we did, Dave, is we used that as seed money to try and find bigger money. And what I mean is, if you're trying to, let's say, take meetings, or you need to fly somewhere, or whatever it is, you need a little bit of money to do that. You know, a guy like me that works a part time job and is normally always dead broke, I don't have a budget to go if I get a meeting in New York, hop on a plane and fly out there. And then, let's face it, if you're meeting someone, you probably want to pay for the dinner, right? Want to pay for the dinner, right? If you're actually trying to get them to invest in your freaking film. So what we use that couple $1,000 for was seed money. And I mean that what we did is we printed pitch packs. We, you know, put a little budget for travel, we put a little budget for food, and we sort of use that for our money to try and find more money, if that does that make sense? So we didn't take the first five grand and like, Hey, here's our first five grand for the movie. We took it as almost our money, and I had to give ourselves a couple bucks, not to lie to you, so we could take a little time off work and actively take two months, right? And look for money. So that's what we did. And I think maybe that's a little different than most people, you know, because I think you know, because I think some people put the money away in the budget for the film, but then how do they, you know, how do they fly out to get that meeting? How do they do this or that? And I think talking to somebody in person is infinitely, always better when you're talking about finances, you know, you can look them in the eye. They can see your passion. It's, it's, real. It's tangible. You're dealing with the human being, you know. And this is what happened. This is how we got our executive producers. First off, luck is a huge part of it. But obviously, being an army of freshmen, right? We had, you know, a lot of connections in the music world. We were, I was friends with and very kind of casual friends, obviously now grown to be very close friends, but casual friends with two, if you can believe this, theater producers in the United Kingdom, theater. When I say theater, I mean theater, you know, like musicals, like shows, right? And I know that they have been friends with some other bands that I that I was friends with, and I knew that they were visiting the United States. And, you know, they kind of told me once, hey, if you ever have some projects going on, just keep us posted. You know, that kind of thing. But basically, I knew these were people that were open to the arts, if that makes sense, because they came from a theatrical background. So I reached out to them, because I knew they're going to be in the United States. I said, Hey, I'd have this project I love. This product I'd love to tell you about. They said, Hey, come on out. And this is completely true. And this is where I talk about the seed money. They were going to be in Disneyland, and I live in California, so they were going to be in the, you know, Disney, the Disney in Florida, right? So we took Dave, we took the last money in the pot, right? Bought a plane ticket, bought a cheap motel, six, got the cheapest rental possible, okay? And I flew out by myself because we couldn't afford to bring Reza or Aaron with me. That's the CO writer and the producer, and I met them at Disneyland, and I sat down over lunch at Disney right? And I told him what we were doing, and I told them what we were trying to do. And I told them we were looking for, you know, executive producers and investor for the project. And I gave them, you know, two budgets, you know, I gave them the, not the ghetto backyard budget, but I gave them our moderate and I gave them our ideal. And again, when I say ideal, it wasn't like, hey, millions more. I'm talking like, hey, another $20,000 or something, right? And they said, Okay, well, think about it. Thanks for talking to us. Blah, blah, blah. And then about two weeks later, I got an email saying that they're in. They were down to be the lead investor, you know, as long as we could find a couple other smaller investors to, you know, do it. And that was that we were off and running. And literally, that is the story of how we got our executive producers for the project. And I have to say this, because you just you got to plug the people to help you right. Their names are Craig beach and Theresa Beach, theatrical producers over in the United Kingdom and Dave. They were so awesome. Literally, I tell other people about our executive producers, and they're like, they start crying because they can't believe it, because usually the executive producers are hell, when's it getting released? When are we getting our money? What's going on? How come it's taken so long? Dave, we were doing a lot of first time stuff, and, you know, we're new to it. Like, I mean, a regular investor probably would have, I mean, probably would have taken legal action against us because things were taken so long, but we had such a limited budget, we had to go really slow to make things were right, and we were a small team, so we were very lucky that way. But I what I would have to say about that, if somebody is looking for advice, and man, how do I get my project filmed? Find a couple dollars and almost use that as, as I say, seed money. Use it as the money that you're going to use to try and find the investors, if that makes sense at all, almost like find a little bit of money just to be able to give yourself a month or two months to send emails all day and make phone calls all day and connect dots, like these are dots I wasn't in film, where I just called up a film producer, and they said, I want to back your movie, right? I was in music, and I knew somebody in music that had been involved in some musicals in the UK, so I knew they were involved in theatrical projects, right, as a bit of a relationship with them. So it was outside the box. And I think in this day and age, that's the only way to find money for film, unless you're one of the big daddies, and I may be wrong, but unless you're a big daddy, or unless your parents are filthy rich, which mine certainly are not, you have to think outside the box. You have to look in different places. So this small, tiny, micro budget, raunchy indie comedy essentially, was made and executive produced by two theatrical producers in another country. So I know that's a bit of a long story, but I just want to stress that if someone's looking for money, you've got to look in places where maybe people haven't looked before. Theater People help make a movie, as opposed to movie people that are bitter, right? And they've gone down that road, they know how difficult it is for indie film theater, people actually found it more fascinating than actual film producers who we met with that just rolled their eyes and said, Good luck.

Dave Bullis 36:31
You know, that's an interesting strategy, Chris, you know, and you know, I always am fascinated with how, you know, people have gotten their movie made. And you know, that is an excellent point, because you're right, you want to. I mean, checking out theater people. And you know what I mean, like, they're not this is, this is new to them too. You know what I mean? This is, this is still cool to them. And if you do get some film people, there's a lot of bitter, burned out people in the film industry, and they just sort of go, oh, another film. Blah, blah, blah. And that's why I try to be the difference to that. You know, I'm always trying. I always trying. I always try to stay upbeat and positive and, you know, and it's the same thing too, you know, for you know, everyone listening, if you're going to make a production staff or whatever crew you have, make sure that they all believe in the project and that no one is negative or bitter, because that that attitude spreads like a virus.

Chris Jay 37:19
It's death, it's death. It's absolute death on set. It's death in pre production, just because somebody's coup and just because somebody has great gear, just because somebody has good hookups or a good resume, I'm telling you, man, don't fucking work with them if you are indie. Find people that are hungry and young and they want to kill for it like you. It's just not worth it. I mean, I'd rather shoot on a lesser camera and have a DP that's thrilled to be there. You know, I'd rather have somebody that maybe is not on a TV show, and I found them in a theater program, but they're believing in that character. They're becoming that character. Because, dude, that jadedness is terrifying. And the great thing that we did one of the key things to get this thing done, because I'm telling you, we didn't have enough money to do it, Dave, and we didn't have enough Dave, we didn't have enough time to do it. We didn't have enough people to do it. But we got people that were stoked. We got our director, our producer, knew a guy that was doing a web series, right? Didn't go to film school, Director by the name of Ryan ederer, right, had never done a feature, had never done a TV show. We literally had just done web series, right? And our producer when he was looking for the director, for the director for this, went to see him work on a web series. They had mutual friends, and he said the director was holding the boom mic and shouting instructions, right, and also running to get coffee for everybody. And he said that's when he knew this could be our guy, right? Because he was so passionate right over a little web series that most likely, no one's going to see. How passionate would he be if he got to do a very, very small feature? So we met with him at a Denny's, right? You know, he actually reminds me of you, to be quite frank. You know, just because he's positive like that, and he just said, guys, if you let me direct this movie, all I want to do is direct a feature. He said, I will quit my job. I'm a waiter in LA I will quit my job for pre production and for the filming and for at least a solid month after done, I will live on nothing. You know? I mean, we gave him peanuts day, peanut everybody worked for so cheap on this, but I think it was we found the good people. But I also think they believed in my passion and Aaron's passion and Reza passion. I mean, when I hunted down some of the cast, which are some really super crazy, cool stories, but, dude, I was coming to them with nothing, but I was coming to them with passion. You know what I mean? Like, please, you know, you know, just like, let's get behind this, if that makes sense, and it appeals to a certain type of person. Not everybody. Dude, some people blew me right off, right? But you'd be surprised some of the cool little people you can pull because they're just good people. At the end of the day, it's getting to them, it's getting to them. It's all connections, and it's all How do you get to that person? You know,

Dave Bullis 40:07
Yeah, very, very true. And when you said you're he reminded me. He reminded me of he reminded you of me. I was gonna say, What is he a five foot nine ginger like,

Chris Jay 40:18
But he's a five foot nine from five foot nine kid from Chicago.

Dave Bullis 40:22
Aha, okay, yeah. I always like to, always want to ask, but no, but all kidding aside, though, you know, I agree completely. Man, you know, just going back to that, you know, having that passionate people, man, on set and avoiding all that negativity, because it is it now. It not only is a virus, it drains everyone's energy, and it also causes a lot more conflict with each other. And, you know, because I've been on those sets, Chris, you know, where all of a sudden, you know, someone comes in like, this is okay, I guess I want to be here. And then over then you have people who are just flat out like, oh, I don't, I don't want to be here anyway. This thing's gonna suck. Let me tell you about my let me I had a real quick story. I was on a film set one time, and this is years ago, when I was just was just goofing around making a student film, and I had this guy come on, and all he did, all this, he was, he's my director of cinematography, and he came recommended by this other guy I know. And all he did was tell everybody about his latest project. He could, you could not stop him from talking about it between takes. All he did, he was like, You know what? This reminds me of my movie, blah, blah, blah, Jesus Christ, Yo, I got it, dude, you're making a zombie film. Congrats. Congratulations. You know, there's 25 trillion of them. You know, you can add you were still on other projects.

Chris Jay 41:33
And instead of working on that project, all they do is talk about their project. We had somebody like that show up, and I won't get into any details beyond that, but it was just like, Dude, you know, it's kind of like he was kind of driving the director nuts because he kept talking about the project that he was working on. It's like, Hey, man, you know, like, that's awesome. Dude, stoked to help you. But we're fucking, you know, we got a day left of filming here we, you know, we are making the tiniest movie of all time. Like, we don't have time for this. Like, we'll just stay on board here, man, call next week and we'll talk about the zombie movie, you know,

Dave Bullis 42:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know. And it's like, if they had played their cards, right, they could have had an ally, instead of just, you know, boring everyone to death, just going, Hey, man, by the way, my own movie, like, we got it, yeah, you know, we got every you know, you know what I mean. So

Chris Jay 42:14
When you're on set, you know, do the job that you do, try and make connections, but, but, but work hard on the job you do, because that's what will really come through, especially in the indie setting. And I'm telling you, Dave, there's so many good things aligned up with this cast and the people involved. But, you know, we didn't get a lot of strangers. Reza was like, hey, I want to work with this DP, I know, you know, I got one or two stand ups that would be great for these roles. Let's try them first. I got an actor buddy that was in this other indie I did try him, and lo and behold, I look at the cast, there's a handful of people that we got from open casting. And we had huge open casting, we brought tons of people in, but I'd say 75% of that cast is a direct connection in one way or another. It's probably only a handful of people that we walked in and didn't know, and they just kicked so much, but we put them in, and I think a lot of people like to work with who they know, but there's a reality to that, so it's good to make a lot of friendships and connections, because you got a better chance of getting thrown into a film as an actor, if you're a waiter with the director who just got this small indie than just going to an open casting call. I almost wonder if it's even possible to do that anymore, to even get in a movie, just as a dude who walked in a room, hi, you don't know me. I'm here to show you how awesome I am, because in the back of the head they're sitting there, and they got their buddy or their nephew or their uncle or their neighbor or, you know, it's very incestuous, and our movie was no exception to that. But you trust those people. They didn't screw us. You know, we had strange we had one lady take us to sag, because we canceled her, because we had to cut the roll, because we couldn't film the scene. Dave, it was $150 roll, and she contacted sag and said, I need to be paid because they canceled on the day of she hadn't even left her house yet, dude, you know what I mean. So will we ever work with her again? Hell no. If we ever hear about her again, we'll be like, dude, that fill in the blank literally cost us $150 when we had nothing in the bank because a roll got cut. She wasn't in the car, she wasn't on set. Literally, she was just waking up and I said, I'm so so so sorry. But that just gives you an example of that type of attitude can be deadly, you know. So I'm glad she wasn't in it, because if somebody would do that, would do that to a small, tiny, little movie to get your 150 bucks, like, how would you have been on set? You know? I just, I just don't think you can be positive enough, even if you're not a positive person, learn to be because I don't think this is the business for you, if you're not ready to really just be nothing but good energy.

Dave Bullis 44:39
Yeah, I concur, you know. And the funny thing is, when last time I casted for a film I was shooting in, we did it the right way. We had, we had it at a studio. We had, you know, we had, we had two rooms. We had everything so, and we had a great audition room. It was on an elevated stage. And I had a rule, no. Know we, I am going to cast everybody that I don't know, people, people got, you know, that I knew, got to go up there, and I gave everyone a shot who I think even had a remote shot. And we whole day, and I actually ended up casting everybody who I didn't know completely. I had no friends, no family, nothing. Everybody was somebody I didn't know I was meeting for the first time, though, all those people proved out to be right. They were all great, great people, except for actually, let me. Let me amend what I just said. There's one person I hired based upon a producer who wanted him. And I said, Okay. I said, I will. I will. I will take a chance this person, that person, ended up being the problem. Okay, yeah, and that was because I knew, and I said, this is why I wanted all fresh faces. But by the way, it's funny, you mentioned about sag, because this person kept, you know, as I didn't even, I announced casting, and then I didn't even bother, like, you know what I mean, like my producers were on Facebook all the time, and I and, you know, at that point I, you know, I have a on and off relationship with Facebook. But anyways, dude, who doesn't, oh my god, the drama on Facebook. Like, who needs this shit? Honestly, the

Chris Jay 46:11
Whole promoted post shit, like, isn't the whole premise of Facebook is, if somebody likes you and they click like that, they get to know about what you're doing, and now you have to pay them to let them know what you're doing. It's like, ridiculous, dude. It's like you have like, 10,000 followers, and your posts reached five people. Like, Well, what about the 9599 five people that want to know what I'm doing, and now I have to pay you to do it. I almost feel like they invented that, they made it awesome, and then once they had the whole world on it, they decided to start getting fucking paid and screw you. The whole purpose of this is out the window. So, I mean, Facebook, to me is, I want it to go the way in my space, let it burn. You know,

Dave Bullis 46:49
It's like the mafia, man. Anything you want done on Facebook you got to pay for

Chris Jay 46:53
Absolutely totally Facebook, the mafia of social media.

Dave Bullis 46:58
But I was just gonna, just to finish that thought, This guy said, you know, hey, I would like to, like to try out, and I like to, you know, for a role. And already I've been warned about this guy, real creepy dude, real sleaze bag. Well, one of my producers says, Listen, you know, we'll be casting soon enough, or we're crowdfunding right now. He took us to sag and said that we were trying to make him pay to audition. Oh my god. And sag thankfully sided with us, and they said, No, they did not say that. Blah blah. I told my producer. I said, Don't even talk to him. I said, I told you about this guy, and then I mean, that caused a problem between us. And I mean, all because of this, this really wormy guy,

Chris Jay 47:41
Almost bizarre. It's like those people, just like I always fear. There's a lot of people in this world that I would like to fucking tell the fuck off, right? But I don't, because I just feel that you burn bridges. You never know what's going to occur, especially in a business like this. Why would you ever even somebody's a dick? Okay, they're a jerk. You're my homeboy, Dave. I call you on the slide and say, Dave, do not work with Chuck schmucatello. He's terrible, right? But why tell chuck that he's a terrible person? I even in life, I don't do that. When I meet somebody I don't like, it's like, what's the point, dude? Like, why throw that negative energy out there? I mean, it's just, but I just think people that do that in this business, what are they fools? They don't think people talk. I mean, it's just insanity, you know?

Dave Bullis 48:24
Oh, dude, I was one time on Facebook that, you know, the Philly film scene. As we were talking the pre interview, this guy gets on his Facebook, tags a local producer, and says the and says, Oh, this guy's a piece of shit. Fuck him. Blah, blah. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, this has to be a joke. I said, because there's no way this guy is serious. They start going back and forth all over Facebook, and the one and the guy chimes back with, well, it's not a good idea to make enemies with a producer. And they're going back and this guy, because the other guy was an actor, they're going back and forth. Other people are getting brought in. And I go, all these people have just entered my blacklist because, I mean, I would never want anything like this to happen.

Chris Jay 49:05
And the crazy deal like, Why, it's just, there's a lot of weird stuff out there. So obviously, you and I are jumping all over the place. But the whole point of that, to go back to the bet, the movie that that we made is, man, we eliminated that, Dave. I mean, it was awesome. If you were to go on this set, you literally would be treated with so much kindness and respect and check this out. When we were doing auditions, I would ask people that I was interested at the end, when they got up. I literally, I even the girl who plays our lead actress, who's going on to do some really cool stuff, I said, Because I loved her, I thought she was great. And I was just like, um, I have one last question. Like, are you a nice person? And she was stunned, and she was just like, uh, what do you mean? Like, I don't know. Just like, we're new to this, and, you know, we're scared of, like, the whole actress Hollywood reputation, like, we just want nice, normal people. Like, are you friendly, like, in real life? And she started laughing, and she's like, Yeah, yeah, I'm friendly in real life. But she was so stunned to hear that question. But it came from a very honest place, you know, like, Are you being real right now, or are you being nice because you want to get cast in this? Like, if we're having lunch, can we talk to each other? Are you going to be I don't want to be here. I just did it. Get everything on my reel. I got something better. Now I need to go be a hot chick on the set of, you know, 30 rock. I'd be bad example. But you know what I mean? Like, it was, I was so obsessed with making sure that people were nice. I wanted them talented too. There's a couple people we passed on. I think that could have maybe even helped the movie, because they had a bit of a name, because I met him, and I was like, I got a bad feeling, man. I got a bad feeling like they're not going to take this seriously. They want to be in bigger shit. I'd like those people that are kind of bubbling, that are really hungry and want to do good work. Because there was a lot of like with the dads. We cast two professional wrestlers. We cast Diamond Dallas Page and Jake the Snake Roberts, which is a wild story, but we had a couple leads on some dads, or more like character actors, and I won't say any names, but dudes that you and I know, but there were these B movie dudes, Dave, these dudes that like, Yo, you give them five grand a day, right? And they'll come and they'll barely know the lines. But you can say you've got the dude from this TV show in it, or the guy that was in this movie, you know. And they just make a living popping around these bean movies, I even hear one guy wore an earpiece. And I'm like, what? That guy's not even that big, but they're like, he wears an earpiece, and you feed him his lines, but hey, you can give him five grand, and then you can say so and so's the dad in your little, tiny movie. And I just thought that was so horrifying and kind of sad too. But it's a reality, you know?

Dave Bullis 51:42
Yeah, yeah, you know. I just, I was just thinking right now, a guy on set with an earpiece and someone, some, some pa feeding him live,

Chris Jay 51:49
And what does he say? Like, you know, okay, Mr. So and So, say this one sad, you know, I miss you son, you know. And he's just like, I miss you. I mean, imagine editing around that. I mean, imagine making sure the dude's hair covers the ear piece. And that's a reality that a filmmaker would do, because, hey, at least he's got some type of name. So on the stupid cover we can put featuring the dude from, I'm trying to think of a TV show, you know what I mean. But featuring the dude from, you know, you see them, Dave, you know, I don't have to do names. You see those guys that just, they're like, why are they in so many B movies where they just take the five grand a day and that's that, and then people cram their scenes in one day because they can't afford them for two days. You know, it's crazy, man.

Dave Bullis 52:32
You know, my favorite dad, who's actually starting B movies was, is Michael Gross from family ties, where he's he's in tremors. And I actually know somebody who's worked with him, and he says, No, Michael is not like that at all. Michael actually shows up. He still works hard. He's the nicest guy. And I said,

Chris Jay 52:49
I hasn't done more. I actually thought he was a really good actor. Like, is he still around?

Dave Bullis 52:55
Oh yeah, he's still around. He just released tremors five with him and Jamie Kennedy,

Chris Jay 52:58
Wow, wow. Dude, great name, great. That's a hell of a pull, right there. Dude, that's, that's somebody that's, just seems like a good actor. I bet he's a good dude. You know, that's what? Yeah, that's an interesting one. You forget about people like that. There's so many of them floating around out there. It's, it's got to be brutal, dude. I mean, to be an actor has just got to be tough.

Dave Bullis 53:16
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I have friends who are actors, and we're always going back and forth about, you know, auditioning, casting and stuff like this. And, you know, because, you know, you know how it is Chris, because some people know, hey, Dave, you know what's this director like I'm going to work with? And I say, you know, he's, you know, he's pretty, no nonsense. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And this one's, you know, real, you know, fast and loose. Just wants to have fun. So, you know what I mean, it just stuff like that, you know. And it's most and I would never recommend anybody like we were just talking about. I would never recommend anybody who I wasn't 100% confident in, you know what I mean? And I mean that that really is critical, you know. And I would, by the way, I would love to work with Michael Gross someday. I I've not only heard good things about him, but I heard, you know, I still, I love everything he's in, all the tremors movies. He makes those tremors movies.

Chris Jay 54:03
And plus, if he ever writes an autobiography, he already has the greatest title ever, just a gross life, and it's just hidden on the front looking sad, you know,

Dave Bullis 54:12
Just covered in blood of a tremor of a gravel. So, you know, Chris, as we you know, as we're talking about the bet I wanted to ask, and I always ask this to any filmmakers, what was the biggest challenge, whether it was a day, whether it was a specific incident, you know, what was the, you know, the biggest obstacle you had to overcome while you were making this,

Chris Jay 54:32
During during filming, or during the whole process, during filming, okay, um, during filming, okay? Because we filmed over 13 days, you know, we shot it in 13 days, all in the city of Ventura. The most difficult thing was during filming. The most difficult thing was the wearing of the different hats, because we were so small that Aaron and I were the set dressers. Right? Aaron and I were the the. Wardrobe dudes. Aaron and I were the prop guys. Aaron and I were the Go get the catering guys. And Aaron and I were also the, oh, geez, we were, I mean, we were, we were so much, we were so much, and it was too many hats. The lesson that I learned hopefully when we make our next one, oh, actually, I should talk positive when we make our next one, next year, right? The key thing, I think would be, is you just can't have enough of those assistants, not people to beat up or bully or make you go get coffee, you know what I mean, but just somebody there with you. Like, hey. Like, this is kind of my guy, you know what I mean. Like, you know, hey, I'm just gonna make this up. But Steve, Steve, you're with me, Ryan, you're with Aaron, yo. We'll treat you great. Nothing but love. But we just need a sec, a set of hands that you're always with me, almost like, give me two extra arms, you know. We're going to be doing some fun stuff, you know, but we just bit off more than we could choose, so it was hard to focus on that. And then I was also picking up wrestlers at airports. And we also had other people helping with this. Dave, I don't want you to think it was just four people making this movie, right? But we just thought we could do more. I wanted to be on set more dude, you know, and me sitting there watching it, and, you know, as the writer and CO producer, I wanted to be watching the actual movie get made. And I spent 50% of that movie not on set, but setting up the set, or picking people up, or picking up food because we were so small, you know? So I guess, I guess the most difficult thing was wearing too many hats. You got to find a way to find more people to help with the hats, but you have to trust them. And I really, and don't trust many people. I had a vision of how every room should look. I had a vision of, I knew the relationships with the restaurants that were doing the catering. So how can I send somebody when I need to be the one that goes in there, and it's Chris's face that they know, and that's why they're giving them a bunch of tacos. So it was just that, you know, I think you can wear too many hats, and sometimes that can probably be the death of small movies. But again, we had a lot of good people around us, so that, to me, was the most difficult thing. I should have trimmed a couple things off the list that I was responsible for, but we wanted to take that money, Dave, and put it in other places. And I think that's why our movie, hopefully, when you see it, hopefully you'll like it and find it funny, but I think you'll see man, for the budget. Damn. These guys did a good job of making this stuff look legit, you know. And I think that's because we put money, we saved money in certain places, where other places would get trailers right, or other places would hire a cating company, or other places would pay for food, or other places would hire a set dresser. We did all of that, you know, and that really, I think, made things difficult, but made us to make a movie that's better.

Dave Bullis 57:34
Yeah, you know, that is something I always talk about with filmmakers, is there's a tendency to read something like Robert Rodriguez's film without a filmmaker, without a crew, or even like the the the rebels guide by Stu makovitz. And it's almost like, and I've done this to myself, it's almost as if we try to be a one man crew, and it ends up hurting you more than helping you. And I completely understand Chris when you're talking about putting that money elsewhere. That's what I've always thought of, too. Is, you know, why should I have, you know, I can be the camera operator and the cinematographer and the and the boom mic operator, and I'll edit this thing, and you know what I mean, and I'll be the colorist. Well, I'll do Foley, just because you can, should you that's the question, exactly. Yeah. So that's why, when I make movies from now on, I always just want to be the writer, the director and the producer, and even, that's a lot. Even,

Chris Jay 58:23
Yeah, that's a lot, dude, that's a lot. I think the writer is the easiest one of the bunch, because your work's kind of done. Like, what are you going to do on set? Maybe catch a line that you want done a little different. It's, you know, what I'm saying, like, I think you can handle being like, but it sounds like, Yeah, I'm not certain. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, but you're right. I mean, you just wear so many hats because you can. But then again, at the end, the hardest part, the hardest part the whole movie, forget the filming. Filming was awesome, is post production. We were not prepared. We were not ready. We ran out of money. Tech issue after tech issue after tech issue after tech issue to the point of we the film is out upon release of this podcast right? Came out today, I believe, so the film can be seen blah, blah, blah, but I'm talking to you a couple days before we release it, right? Let's be honest. So our premiere is in Los Angeles in 48 hours, and we just just got the blu ray completed to show it, because the core producer and director spent the past 10 days doing program after program after recording after program to burn a freaking Blue Ray. I mean, like, that's what we're talking about, and it's tech. Tech. Tech, Tech. Tech has been a complete nightmare for something like this, because we haven't had the money to have a real, proper post production team, and it really made things take a long time. And was, really, was brutal, man. So I would say tech is the hardest part of it, which is funny, because it's the first thing you and I said when we got on the phone in the pre interview,

Dave Bullis 59:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm so glad though, that everything has worked out honestly, man. Because I honestly Chris, because I hear so many, you know, independent films. You know, they have a budget, whatever that budget might be, and they they get to like, 75% done, 80% done, and then all of a sudden they have to stop, for whatever reason. You know what I mean. I there's so many movies in the Philadelphia, especially in the Philadelphia especially in the Philadelphia area, where, you know, I am, where I've, you know, I've been a part of films like that, where I've been an actor for them, or I've helped out in crew or something, and all of a sudden, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, that movie's on some guy's hard drive, and we're probably never going to finish it.

Chris Jay 1:00:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And how sad is that? Is there anything more sad in the world than that, man, I mean, like, you know that heart and soul and blood, sweat and tears and it's just gone? Like, oh man. I mean, I'd be devastated, dude. We were devastated how long post production was taking. And at one point I had, I was never going to give in to the vision, but there was a vision of, is this going to be one of these things, you know what I'm saying? Like, is this going to be one of these things that can't get done because we ran out of money? That was a real tough time. You know? I mean, post production took a long time, and, man, it's depressing. It's kind of scary. Like, oh my god. Like, you know, what are the investors gonna mean, I'm being honest with you, because it's a filmmaking podcast, right? But like, what are the investors gonna do if we, if we can't pull this off, what happens to the footage? What happens to our reputations? I mean, like, so we just stayed in the pocket. But, I mean, the amount of work, my God, Dave, if you could have told me ahead of time, I would have done it, of course, but geez, would I have questioned my sanity? You know? Because, I mean, I've basically remained in poverty just to get this thing done, because I can only work part time, because I need to spend the rest of the time working on the movie, man. I mean, it's God, is it a labor of love. I just have such a deep respect for people that make movies. Now, I will never shit on a movie. I may not like it, but an indie film, I'll shit on the studio ones all day, you know, but I will never shit on an indie film again. And when I say indie, let's talk about real indies, dude. I'm not talking about a million dollar indie with Daniel Radcliffe being a guy who farts as a corpse. I'm talking about like, you know, I'm talking about like, Hey, you made a movie for $100,000 you made a movie for 150 you made a move for 75 basically, you pull off a movie for under $150,000 and you have my respect forever, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
Yeah, and I agree completely. And by the way, Swiss Army Man, I somebody told me the premise of that movie, and I thought they were joking around, and then, and then I saw a trailer, and I was like, Oh, okay. I said, you know, Chris, I've seen so many weird movies over the years. At this point, I'm like, You know what? I'll take a gamble on this one too.

Chris Jay 1:02:32
Yeah, cool. Good for you, man, good for you. Maybe. I mean, honestly, it'd probably be like a freaking masterpiece, right? Could probably be like the most important film made in years, you know, so good for them. You got to respect somebody doing something different, you know, you have to. But people are telling me, like, it's this new indie, get the fuck out. Ain't nothing indie about a movie with those two guys in it. Come on. You know, the CGI alone, when he rides them through the ocean, probably costs like, $100,000 you know, you and I could have made five shorts for that, you know?

Dave Bullis 1:03:01
Yeah, seriously, I mean, and I believe I understand completely what you're saying, Chris and I and, you know, because, I mean, I've made movies for literally nothing, just everyone doing it for the love of the game. And then I've made things for like, 2530, $40,000 and you're like, holy crap. It sounds like a lot of money when I started, and now it's like, down to nothing, yeah.

Chris Jay 1:03:20
I mean, it's, man, it's just a, it's, it's a mind blowing business, man, I got a lot of respect for you guys that do this and love it and breathe it because it's so hard to get it done. I mean, what other thing can you name that you just can't do? Right? If I want to be a pro baseball player, probably not going to happen. But damn it, I can play baseball every day of my life, right? I can get in an intramural league. I can play and fill in the blank with anything else music. Okay, maybe I'm not going to be, you know, um, I'll give you Bon Jovi reference, and you're that part of the world. I'm not going to be Bon Jovi, but I can still write a song, I can still find a little coffee house open mic, and I can play it for people, right? But you just can't make a film. Okay? You can grab your iPhone, of course, you I'm not saying you can do that, but do you know what I mean, an actual full length feature film. You just can't do it. There's a million hurdles. There's all these people, I don't know. I just think it's just such a such an undertaking to go down that road that I just support anybody. Man, like, just awesome. Hell, it's great. How can I help you? You know, what do you need? Because you're about to go to war, like you are about to go to war, and it doesn't end in the filming. You know, here I am two two years later, finally releasing the thing and the distribution you're dealing with, and doing the premiere and and doing the press, and you're all do, I mean, dude, I mean, I'm just again. You are talking to me at a time where my head's spinning. So you're probably getting a very emotional version of me. If we talk in three months, we could probably have a very relaxed So, Chris, how did it happen? Whoa, Dave, this happened, you know, but I'm in the midst of, like, ah and, but it's an exciting ah, and I asked for this, and I'm pumped up and, and we're proud of it too, man, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a big life goal and a huge accomplishment, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:04:57
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Chris. And, you know. I mean, I've been there before, too, and I completely understand where you're coming from, dude. And honestly, Chris, you should be proud of the bet movie. And now you're gonna, you're probably at that phase where you know you at the end, you're, you're probably, you know, you're drained, you've given everything you can, and you're like, you know what, I've made one movie. That's it. Goodbye. And then about a month or two letter. You're like, Man, I should maybe make a note.

Chris Jay 1:05:23
It's funny. You say that, Dave, um, while we were waiting for uh, post production to happen, and we're kind of had the post production blues, right? And trying to find some more money, right? What we did is, uh, we wrote another script, Aaron, and I learned so much. We said, let's take this education. Let's write another one man and and, you know, it's so funny. You know, you always you get better. But we had so much on set experience in this whole process, I kind of feel like we went to film school without going to film school, right? And, and I'm sure film school people be like idiot. No, you didn't. No, it's true. I don't know the difference between this brand of camera this brand of camera, right? But, um, we wrote this next script, and we're very excited about it. We actually want to shoot it next year in South Jersey, in your neck of the woods, and it was so cool because we got to write a script, knowing what it's like to make a movie. Now we know what we need. Now we know too. Can't write that scene that's ridiculous. It'll get cut. So it got to be very focused. And that's just the education that comes with time that guys like you have. But it was very exciting to put that into play, and if this movie does well, you know, your hope is that it opens the door for another executive producer, or the same executive producers, or just more connections in the business to back this and get behind another one. But I definitely learned we need more money if we want to take make the type of movie we made, we're not going to be able to do it on that budget again. We're going to need to find a couple more bucks. You got to move up the ladder a little bit, right? You can't, you can't go in the opposite direction.

Dave Bullis 1:06:45
Oh, yeah. It's just like what Dov Simon says, you know, you may. You get to make a $20,000 movie, then you make a $50,000 movie, then you make 100 some odd 1000 and then all of a sudden you're making million dollar movies. You know what I mean? I think, actually, I think he starts off with, in his paradigm, you make, you make a movie for nothing, literally, it's just your friends, whatever. And then you, you have to make a movie for like, 10 grand or five grand, and then you move up, you know, sporadically, but, yeah, but I know exactly where you're coming from, because that's what I mean. That's what I've always said too, is, you know, people ask me about making stuff and why haven't made anything like four or five years? And my answer is, is, because I'm an idiot, and I write things and I go, Holy shit, I would never be able to even using all my methods I talk about in this podcast, even having all the people who've talked to me and saying, like, what do you have access to? What can you make today with it, with all you have access to, I end up writing stuff that that. I'm like, Dude, I look at one effect, and I'm like, this thing would cost 50 grand, or I look at this, this would cause, you know, I mean, I mean, but then again, Chris, you know, I don't know if you, I don't know if you ever listen to this other couple of podcasts, but, I mean, I'm the guy who was able to get a live working tank and also able to get fake police cars to destroy, and we stand, and it wasn't That. Wasn't, you know, we couldn't make it because, not because we couldn't find the tank and the police cars to destroy, but because me and the director couldn't get along. So it was a very odd,

Chris Jay 1:08:11
I love it, so therefore your biography should be, I found the tank once the Dave Bullis story, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:08:17
Yeah, yeah. And I actually, because I have a friend of mine, who's a mechanic. He he has a contract with police. The police department had all the old police parts. We were going to doctor up all these old Junkers to look like police cars from just one side, and then run a tank over them. And we had, and I got everything all squared away. And, I mean, the director connected.

Chris Jay 1:08:37
Wow, that's crazy, do you but, but now he's in tank. No, you found a tank. That's the important thing. You know? Yep, I he's my tank guy. From now on, this guy, I love it. Hey, at least you have a tank guy. A lot of people don't have that.

Dave Bullis 1:08:49
I love it. I got two things going for me. I had a pro wrestling match, and I have a tank guy. So that's it.

Chris Jay 1:08:55
I think for most people, that's enough. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you know, even on your tombstone, like your lies. Dave bolas, he had one pro wrestling match, and one time he found a tank. I mean, everybody's gonna take a picture of that tombstone. That's gonna be plastic.

Dave Bullis 1:09:10
As I'm buried in a What is it, the piano crate. But I just become like Marlon Brando. I just eat myself into like an early grave. Worse. We just took a very dark turn there. But, but, but, Chris, I wanted to ask, Where can people find the bet movie?

Chris Jay 1:09:29
Yeah, absolutely. So the bet as of right now, is officially out. I think it's actually comes out today, on the day of airing from July 26 on, it is on, shouldn't be, should be on all VOD outlets, like time, Warner's movies on demand, Comcast movies on demand. You know, DirecTV movies on demand. And, of course, iTunes, that's kind of the de facto place, and that's probably the first place I would send somebody to look for it on iTunes. But it'll also be available for ran on Xbox this. PlayStation, Fandango, now voodoo. So basically all the digital outlets, the VOD outlets, and then we'll be doing a DVD at the end of August, and then, God willing, fingers crossed conversation for another time we land on Netflix or Hulu Hulu with the streaming deal. So that's the plan. But right now, if you want to see this movie, if you like comedy, if you like silly movies, if you like professional wrestling, if you just want to see what a bunch of psychotic, ambitious dudes made on a small budget, you know, check it out this. This one came from the heart man. It's a silly movie. It's a wild movie. It's a wacky movie. It's certainly not for everybody. It's not high brow, um, Dave. But, you know, in a weird way, it came from all the right places. You know, it came from good people that worked really hard against a lot of odds. And, you know, I think, as any indie filmmaker, regardless of the content, it's the type of movie you want to download, buy it once, and support it because, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to the struggle. Man, you know, it is real, and it's always cool. When somebody cracks through and gets it out there, we'll see what happens. Man, I don't know what's going to happen, but it's exciting. It's exciting to find out, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:11:19
Yeah, and by the way, I meant to mention, this is Roddy Roddy Piper's last movie, right?

Chris Jay 1:11:23
Yes, it's a final appearance of Roddy Roddy Piper. He has a cameo in the film. So it is small, but that was one of the great joys of my life, was having Roddy Piper in my own house hanging out. We got to spend a wonderful day together. We really bonded. We actually became friends from the whole project and kept in touch. So, you know when, we lost him, that was, you know, it kind of affected me a little bit. It was strange to have made friends with a hero like that, and then worked with him on this, and started to talk to him about other projects, and just as quickly as he came in my life, he left. But it's a real honor to me if the only thing that this movie becomes known for, historically, that's a stretch of a word, but is, if it's known, oh, that was that last movie that Roddy popped in for a couple minutes. Fine by me, man, fine by me. I'm honored to be the guy that made Roddy Piper's last movie.

Dave Bullis 1:12:12
Yeah. And honestly, even if I, if I didn't know you, Chris, I honestly, I would have actually bought the movie just to see his last performance. I was, you know, being a wrestling fan. I'm a huge Piper fan as well, and that, I think that is so freaking cool. So it'll be all say, on your, on your, you know, on your eulogy, that can say, Hey, Chris, you know, Chris J he, he was able to hang out with rowdy Piper, and he made the bet move.

Chris Jay 1:12:35
Yeah, there you go. That's it, man, that's, that's all I got going for me. And of course, if anybody's listening. If they want to follow us online, you can go to the bet movie 20 sixteen.com From there, you can connect to our Facebook, our Twitter, our Instagram. We're trying to have fun with the marketing day. We're really trying to get a little cult buzz on this. It's for comedy fans. It's for wrestling fans. We got some talented people in it, man. You know our two lead actors, Amanda Clayton, is going to be in a Martin Scorsese movie at the end of the year. She's on a Tyler Perry show right now, our lead actor has a small role in Guardians of the Galaxy two so you're going to see some faces in here that I truly believe in my heart. In the next year or two, you're going to see a lot more of and I think we just took casting so seriously that, you know, hopefully it's one of those films that gains momentum as it goes to Netflix. As people see it, they're like, Hey, man, I saw this movie, and it's kind of wild, but it's actually funny. I like to think it's kind of, I don't know, you know, I think it's a funny movie. You don't make a comedy to not make people laugh, and that was our goal.

Dave Bullis 1:13:33
You know, I'm glad you actually brought that up. If you have the time. I had some fan questions coming through Twitter. Yeah, sure. Okay, so one of them, it actually is, if there was one thing that you wanted the audience to take away from your film, what would that be?

Chris Jay 1:13:49
Somebody's got to write dick and fart jokes. Why not me?

Dave Bullis 1:13:56
The second question is, what cameras did you shoot on? And did you shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:03
We shot on an Alexa, which we were very lucky to get. So it looks awesome. And then we did one or two pickup shots with a red that was attached to a drone, and the guy that let us use it basically ran around and followed it underneath in terror, because he was ready to catch it if it fell.

Dave Bullis 1:14:22
And so you shot, you didn't shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:23
You know? I mean, that's how not technical I am. I'm being completely blunt with you, Dave, I'm not sure. I just know that we had the Alexa camera that everybody was super excited, and it looked great, especially when we put that color on. It's like, Man, this looks like a real movie, quote, unquote,

Dave Bullis 1:14:40
You know, it's, uh, by the way, as you, you know, go through this wonderful world of filmmaking, by the way, that's the number one question you will always ask from now, every time you make a film, every other filmmaker is going to ask you this question, what did you shoot it on? What did you shoot it on? Okay, yep, that that will be the de facto question. And, you know, they're a filmmaker, because non. Filmmaking people don't give two flying fucks. What you shoot on they you could shoot it on a cardboard box. No, you're gonna say, Hey, I shot it with my iPhone. Oh, that's cool. What they're every filmmaking person is gonna say, Hey, would you shoot that?

Chris Jay 1:15:11
Okay, okay, I just sent a text to find out so in the future, I won't look like a goob.

Dave Bullis 1:15:16
It's cool, man, believe me, man, I you know, it's all good with me, you know? Because every time that I've every film, if you go to a film festival, a film networking thing, and you show a film, would you shoot that on Okay, would you shoot that? That's everybody. Everyone loves to ask that question, but, but, but I just that's how I can tell if you're a film, if you're in the industry or not, because non industry people won't even mention it,

Dave Bullis 1:15:39
But, but, but, yeah, Chris, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And I want to ask where people find you out online,

Chris Jay 1:15:50
Yeah, if people want to see what I'm up to and all that fun stuff, the best place is probably on Twitter, and it's just at army of freshmen. That's the name of the band, and that's where I kind of put my all my personal stuff, you know? And I got the text message, so I'm a professional filmmaker now, Dave, you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Ready. Ready, ready. It said we shot on an Alexa camera. And it said that the time Alexa didn't shoot four, we shot on a two, does that? Okay? So 2k? 2k. Okay, that's what I want to say. And Alexa, 2k. Okay, good. Is that a good thing, Gabe, or bad thing?

Dave Bullis 1:16:32
That's fun, honestly, man, you know, that's the most

Chris Jay 1:16:35
Should have hung up on me. That would be a great end of this conversation. What a fuck!

Dave Bullis 1:16:40
That's I end up most conversations. What a fun but, but basically, you know, everyone only has 1080 1080 monitors, TVs, tablets, phones. So, I mean, you know this whole thing about shooting 248, you know, it's, I don't know if it matters at the end of the day, I, you know, I think it's a great thing, honestly, if you shoot, I think we're ways away from shooting everyone shooting in 4k and being able to enjoy in 4k as well, because you have to crush all this stuff anyway. So my answer is, yeah, I think that's great, man.

Chris Jay 1:17:11
Okay, good, good, good, good. I can't wait for you to see it, man. I really mean that out of everybody that I've been talking to, publicity wise, I think you'll have a neat perspective, number one, because you like wrestling in all honesty, and you'll probably understand how it's hard to work with wrestlers and but you'll understand the comedy of it. And number two, you're a film guy, you know. Number three, you're from Philly. And number four, you didn't laugh at me when I didn't know what camera it was shot on. So these, you know, you're the type of guy that needs to see this film.

Dave Bullis 1:17:36
You know, I'm gonna put all my PJs. I'm gonna fire up the old Xbox, I'm gonna check it out.

Chris Jay 1:17:41
Go, go, go. Awesome. David. And thank you so much for your time, dude. And again, I do listen to the podcast, and I always enjoy your conversations. I like how you have a lot of variety of people on the show. You're not like, kind of one of those conceited podcasts that kind of just rip on people and, you know, they just kind of make it sort of, I don't know, it's kind of seems like bitter dudes that don't make movies that want to rip on people that do that's not you. You're always so supportive to your guests, and I always learn something. So I am a fan. Man, it was a real pleasure talking to you.

Dave Bullis 1:18:07
Oh no, I appreciate that, Chris, like I said in the pre interview, man, I you know, I always try to stay positive. You know, I always want to make this a place of positivity and have as many interesting, diverse people on as I can. But having said that, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, Chris, and I really do wish you the best with a bet movie. I am going to be checking it out Tuesday, July the 26th it is released on all of the of the channels that Chris was talking about. But Chris, honestly, man, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I'm going to make sure to check out the bet movie.

Chris Jay 1:18:40
Cool. My pleasure, Dave, you take care. And thanks everybody for listening. Really does mean a lot. Please check out the film and say hi. Let us know what you thought. Awesome. Take care. Okay, take care brother!

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BPS 454: What Really Happens After You Write the Script with Michael K. Snyder

January 15, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we dive deep into the long game of screenwriting and career-building with Michael K. Snyder, a writer and producer whose journey is a masterclass in patience, preparation, and persistence. Michael’s story isn’t about overnight success or viral moments—it’s about understanding how the industry actually works and learning how to navigate it without losing your creative voice. From film school to studio meetings, his path reveals what happens after the script is written, when development, relationships, and timing become everything.

Michael began his career at Full Sail University, later earning a master’s degree before making the leap to Los Angeles. Unlike many aspiring writers, he didn’t move west blindly. He arrived with a plan, a growing network, and a willingness to work his way up. One of his earliest breakthroughs came from reaching out directly to Lloyd Kaufman of Troma—an act that taught him a crucial lesson early on: opportunities are rarely handed out, but they often appear when you’re willing to ask professionally and follow through. That mindset became the foundation of his career.

Once in Los Angeles, Michael balanced day jobs with constant writing, producing short films whenever possible. Access to a massive warehouse space allowed him and fellow filmmakers to shoot projects on their own terms, building real credits instead of waiting for permission. During this time, he continued developing feature scripts and pilots, understanding that every script serves a purpose—even if it never gets made. Some are calling cards. Others are doors to conversations that lead somewhere unexpected.

That philosophy paid off when a script he shared online attracted a manager’s attention. While the majority of feedback was harsh and dismissive, one email changed everything. Instead of focusing on the negativity, Michael leaned into the opportunity, turning that script into a relationship that opened doors across town. Meetings followed—not because the script was guaranteed to sell, but because it demonstrated voice, ambition, and storytelling instinct. In Hollywood, that’s often enough to get you in the room.

Michael’s experience highlights a critical truth about development: selling a script is rarely the goal. Selling yourself as a writer who understands story, character, and collaboration is what matters most. He explains how development can stretch for months or even years, involving outlines, treatments, rewrites, and constant conversations with producers. It’s not glamorous, and it’s rarely fast—but it’s where careers are built.

One of the most fascinating parts of Michael’s journey is his work adapting existing material. From pitching large-scale biographical projects to developing treatments for iconic properties, he learned how executives evaluate writers not just on originality, but on how they handle legacy, tone, and character. Adaptation, he explains, is about honoring the heart of a story while making it relevant for a modern audience—a skill that has become increasingly valuable in today’s IP-driven marketplace.

At its core, Michael K. Snyder’s story is about loving the process. He emphasizes that if you don’t enjoy development, collaboration, and long stretches of uncertainty, this industry will wear you down. But if you can learn to embrace the grind—rewriting, networking, pitching, and waiting—you give yourself a real chance to succeed. His journey is proof that careers aren’t built on single moments, but on years of showing up, doing the work, and staying ready when opportunity finally knocks.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:46
My next guest is a graduate of Full Sail University's film and entertainment business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films Inc, he's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy has done so many crazy, awesome things, and we're gonna get into all that, and we're gonna talk a lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go out to LA without a plan, without knowing anybody. He actually had a plan in place. And he's doing such some really awesome things. And why don't we just go right into it with guest Michael K Snyder, Mike, you were the app. You were the guest on the first ever episode. The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes. The first three are considered the Lost episodes. You were number one. You were my first guest, and it's so good three years later to have you actually back on so Mike, again, I want to say thank you very much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've come full circle now, all the way back from three years ago,

Michael K. Snyder 2:51
Man, I'm so happy to be back on the show. You know it is, it is. It's kind of funny that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right. And just thinking about some of the progressions that we've both made in our careers and how things have changed. It's just really interesting,

Dave Bullis 3:08
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when I, when we lasted the interview again, it was, it was remotely like we're doing right now, but I was in a actual studio doing it, and I had nothing but problems there. And now I'm doing it from my my office, and I, you know, it's just 10,000 times better. Because I remember when we had the episode and I listened to it, and I was like, What the hell happened here? And it was, that freaking recorder was not, would never work, right? So I the first two episodes, I use that recorder in this really awesome radio station with soundproof and then all of a sudden, now it's like, you know, I mean, it just even technology, how it's improved in three freaking years. Is unbelievable, crazy. Yeah, it is unbelievable. So, you know, Mike, since that episode is a little lost, actually, it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost. You know, I want to dig a little into your background, for those of you, for those listeners who aren't really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done. So, you know, you were actually a graduate of Full Sail University. You graduated in what, 2010?

Michael K. Snyder 4:05
Um, oh, man. I graduated full sales film program in 2010-2011 and then I graduated their master's program couple years after that, so I moved out to LA, and about 2014 2015

Dave Bullis 4:27
Okay, so then, see, again, I just found out. I didn't even know you graduated from the masters program. So see, I'm finding out, yeah, so, so you move out to LA. Now we actually met through, through trauma, through Lloyd Kaufman, and, you know, while, and that was while you were actually at Full Sail. So when you were at full sail, do you think you know that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't have had anywhere else? So sort of like to work a lot of these different movies.

Michael K. Snyder 4:56
I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, film. School in general matters, as much as a lot of people want to say, it does, I think you know, given what I know now, if I could go back, I probably would have tried to work a little bit harder in high school and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know, it's really all about your network. And if you can get in out here a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier to meet executives or meet agents or meet managers or producers, because a lot of them are going to be in the same class as you whereas, if you're you know, in Florida, and you go into a school that anybody you know is pretty much paying to go to because it's private, it's it's just not the same pool of resources. That's not to say that they didn't help me get jobs out here and introducing to a lot of people, but I would say that a lot of what I would consider to be my own success is just based on me reaching out to people myself.

Dave Bullis 5:54
You know, there's an old saying, your net worth is your I'm sorry, Your network is your net worth. And that's 100% true. It really is. My honest to God, even, even if you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding, obviously, and you go out and you're like, Well, hey, I need people to invest in this project. Or if you're doing something like even this podcast, or even doing something like releasing a film, if you don't have a network built up, you really don't have any way to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it as you're doing it, which is, was just like shooting yourself in the foot. That's absolutely right. So, so when, when you say you should, you wish you had applied yourself in high school. You go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike, I trust me. Man, I feel you. I did the same thing in high school. Man, I honestly, and when senior year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything. That's right, I literally, man, like, my teachers were like, Dave, you know, you don't apply yourself anymore. And I'm like, I don't care. I just want to get the hell out of here.

Michael K. Snyder 6:56
Exactly. That's how I was. I was, I was, I was like that before my I was like, that might be eighth grade. So, you know, yeah, I went to two different high schools, and I, you know, the funny part is, when I was a junior in high school, I cook in English. I was in an English Honors class because I finally had a teacher who kind of convinced me to apply myself writing. And she actually did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach out to a professional in your fields, or where you wanted to go into the career you wanted to go into. So I was like, Well, shit, man, I want to be a, you know, writer, director. I mean, Spielberg is not gonna return my calls. You know, I can't really reach out to Scorsese. So who can I reach out to? And that's actually how I met Boyd with Troma and started working, like the conventions in Florida with him, which is just really funny. And I think that was a moment where I my mind kind of opened up a little bit, where it was like, Okay, maybe you should just focus on this and focus on filmmaking, writing and your network. So when I went to high school, I mean, obviously in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not like a there's not even like a film history class, but like a film theory, like elective, it's all just the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there was no way for me to apply myself in the career that I really wanted to except for in this one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's something to say about the arts programs and schools with that, because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know, taken that course and made that decision. And I wish there was more of those types of opportunities for people, you know, and students,

Dave Bullis 8:33
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there than just sort of like, you know, you know, options A, B and C. That's right, so, and you know, that's something to that, you know, even when I was in high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all these freaking movies. We would go to, like, all the local video stores. You know, most people who listen to this podcast know what, what those were like, the blockbuster Hollywood videos. Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then, but, but, you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd go out, and every Friday, Saturday night, or whatever, we'd go out, we we'd just be watching all sorts of different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I could make a, you know, I could do this for a living. I just figured that, though everyone who wrote and made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges by like, the president united states or some crap, you know,

Michael K. Snyder 9:24
Right, right, exactly. It's like, it's the unattainable goal. It's out there. But you have no what, you have no idea how to, you know, map your road success in that field, there's, there weren't a lot of resources, you know. And it's crazy. It was literally like, you go and you watch movies and you think, you know, I remember when I was 10 years old, I was watching close encounters, and I like, this is great, you know? And it was the first time my parents ever were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie. And it was like a light bulb went off in my brain, like somebody writes movies, you know, it's the craziest thing. But now I think there's a lot, there's a few more resources just years later, and not that many years, but there really weren't when I was in high school,

Dave Bullis 10:14
Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have to go to college, you have to do this stuff. And when I went to it, you know, and when I went to college, I didn't know, I didn't know any exactly what I wanted to major in. And, you know, I bounced around from major to major, but I was always, you know, in my spare time, I was practicing writing. And I actually met the first book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called the screenwriters Bible by David Trottier. And and I bought that, and that just sort of like opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know, getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how they wrote that stuff, and how I do it. I'll still do it, but, but then you start to realize, oh my god, there are people out there who actually make movies. And I actually, and if that, I guess maybe it was, like, 2006 or seven. I actually, really got into it. And I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on, on, on MySpace. Remember MySpace Mike?

Michael K. Snyder 11:08
Yeah. Man, yeah. Unfortunately, I do. I think mine's like, like, I think I went, went to great lengths to delete mine.

Dave Bullis 11:20
I mine was actually deleted for me. I got a notice one day. They were like, we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours is one of them. And I said, Honestly, burn that guy to that burn that thing to the ground.

Michael K. Snyder 11:33
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.

Dave Bullis 11:40
It's so true. It's a It's, I have a friend of mine who still has, or he had one, and I was like, my god man, I go, that's like a something from your childhood. That's like an embarrassing moment. You're just like, Please never bring that up again. But, but, you know, I actually, I actually met him from filmmakers through my space and and some of these guys were actually in, like Jersey and New York and, you know, I never really put two and two together that there's, there was a lot more. There wasn't, well, there was a lot more in the in the whole bigger area. I don't want to say PA, because there really wasn't that many in PA at that time, but, but like New York and jersey, there was a few people. Most didn't respond back, because most were looking for, like producers that could fund and give them money, some actually money, right, exactly. And most actually did, though, you know, come back and say, Okay, here's what you can do. And then I just, you know, went from there, but, but you know what I'm trying to say with all this is, it's similar to what you did with Lloyd, and you reached out to him and said, You know, I can, I should see how I could actually work with this guy. And you made an opportunity for yourself.

Michael K. Snyder 12:46
Yeah. I mean, I took a class assignment, and I reached out on my shop an email. I was like, hey, I want to do an interview with you over the phone, you know, and just talk about your career and how you've made something out of nothing and continue to do so, and he responded back with a cell phone number, and that was, that was it. And then it was just really up to me to keep him pinned down and stay on top of them as much as possible. You know, whenever he was in town, or I went to New York and that saw him, you know, and different things, it was, it was just to keep, to keep the relationship alive,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, now with technology, we're able to actually, you know, keep in contact with people a lot better, and so, and also it's a double edged sword, because then you're getting too much contact with with every at once, right? But, you know, but you made an opportunity, you reached out, even was for a class or and you made sure to make a contact. And I think that's so important. And I think, and also, you did the professional way. I mean, I just had Whitney Davis in the podcast for the second time, and we talked about networking the right way. And, you know, the first time that you, you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something, right? No, totally. And, and, you know, you, you actually were offering something for Lloyd, and he took you up on that. And then again, now, you know? And here we are all these years later, because I and because, when you, when you were on that trauma film, we met through that, because that's when I met Lloyd, and then we started talking. And then I think, yeah, yeah, that's how we met. And then then there's it, you know, I've met a few other people through it, Lloyd. And, you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films. He's a connector man.

Michael K. Snyder 14:26
I mean, he's the great connector, you know. I mean, he just, if he's able to put you on the phone or in the room with somebody that you want to be on the phone or in the room with, He'll do whatever he can to be the one to do it. Who does it, you know? And and then he'll take all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves.

Dave Bullis 14:44
Yeah, and I remember reading his, his independent film book, and it was just absolutely hilarious. And I was like, See, he's, he's making independent film feel fun. It's not taken too seriously. And, you know his and when he was on the pub. Podcast, he he said he found a trauma in prison with Michael Hertz, and he was Michael Hertz's bitch, and they found a trauma in prison. And I'm like, wow. And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to him, I go, Lloyd. Do you ever think that someone's gonna listen to this for the first time, not hearing of hewer Troma? And think, Wow, that guy really started a movie business in prison.

Michael K. Snyder 15:24
Like, I hope so, you know, it's not far from the truth.

Dave Bullis 15:29
You know, Yeah, seriously, you know, I've and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector. He's always connecting, you know, different people. And, you know, again, because he connected us and, and I, I've been on different film sets multiple times. And you so, you know, after you got off, this, you know, just to continue your story, after you got off, you know, the working on trauma, and, you know, you sort of, you went back to full sail. You know, at what point did you want to, did you realize that you wanted to go back for your for a Master's at full sail,

Michael K. Snyder 16:01
At the beginning, just because it was kind of part of the deal with my parents, and just the way that they structured their programs, it was like, if you it was like they had a deal, like it was like a Bogo, like, if you buy one degree, you know, we can give you The second degree at a certain cost that was 1000s of dollars less than it would have been had you decided to do it later. Because every so many years, they restructure their programs and they change the cost. So it just happened to be that when we sat down with a representative of wholesale, they were just, they're like, now if you want to take the master's program in business, you know, we can, we can, we can go ahead and lump it in with the film program, and it'll end up costing you less money later on. And, you know, it was like a was like, no time. You know, it was so quick, because it's such an accelerated program, that my parents were like, he might as well. And, I mean, at that point, it was kind of whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it more for them. I think I kind of knew that I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but, you know, to keep everything cool at home and to put a diploma on the wall. I was like, yeah, we'll go and do that.

Dave Bullis 17:09
And, you know, again, it's good that you had a plan, because honestly, like, you can become like me, and, you know, obviously have no plan and just kind of figure your way out, but, but, no, it's good the unit, but

Michael K. Snyder 17:22
It's tough, man. There's not really a plan out there. You know, it's like, you just have to figure it out. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this. I think I you just have to, you have to do it. You have to just set goals and hit those goals. And those goals can be anything, as long as you know that at the end of that list there's some sort of success. And whatever that success is, and that be monetary success, it could just be moving to Los Angeles, or moving to New York, or getting a show, a gig, on a show, or anything, you know, there's not really, there's not really a way to teach this.

Dave Bullis 17:53
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA, and that's actually when I want to ask next is, you know, yeah, so you got the Masters, and then you moved out to LA I think you said 2014 is when you move down.

Michael K. Snyder 18:04
It was, yeah, I mean, I'm horrible with dates, so I'm probably butchering it, but let's just say that. And basically what happened is, after I was done with the film program and I went to the Masters, all of my film school friends had already moved out to Los Angeles, so by the time I was done, you know, I had couches to sleep on, which is really key when you're moving from, you know, Podunk, Florida to one of the most expensive cities in the nation, it's nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And so I hooked up with the Career Development Program at full sail, and they got me an internship out here. And I called one of my friends, and he was like, Man, you can come out here. You can sleep on my couch for as long as you want or need to. You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything with your internship. Just Just get out here. Like, that's all we want. We just want you out here. So I flew out and moved in with him and started my internship. And it was interesting. I was running a 10,000 square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles for more Tierney and Anthony Reva var and Sean wing and a few other actors, and Nathan Heaney, who's a great director of photography now, and they, basically, they pulled their resources. They rented this massive warehouse, right? And it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids to run it, so there was one other guy who was managing it, and I interned there. And after a couple months, they hired me on as his like assistant. And then after a couple months, I got his job. So I ended up doing that for a couple years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacy share, who everyone knows is Tarantino's producing partner, or was and her husband, Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend, and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man, and it was a lot of fun, and I got to meet a lot of really great people my first couple years out here, which is always nice.

Dave Bullis 20:11
Yeah, and you mentioned having couches to sleep on, that was actually one of my questions. Because having that network, since everyone already moved out there, you know, and having those couches to sleep on and places to crash and, you know, key, yeah, exactly it is key. And again, our your network is your net worth. And again, you you're able to actually, you know, go out there and not just be like, Alright, so what next? I mean, I've had friends Mike, who've gone out to LA and sort of been like, with, with no plan, and been like, Okay, what next? It's like, well, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer if you do that. Yeah, you're gonna really, really, reality is gonna hit you very fast,

Michael K. Snyder 20:51
Totally.

Dave Bullis 20:53
So you now, you mentioned you got the, you know, the warehouse job. Now, at this point, were you always writing scripts. And did you maybe have a few scripts to show to different like, maybe producers or agencies?

Michael K. Snyder 21:06
Yeah. I mean, I started writing screenplays when I was probably 11 years old, pen and paper. Then I figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out, you know, you could get keltics and all these freeware. Then I found out that there was all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So I was always putting material out there. I mean, I was just pushing short films and short stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I could just to get reads and get comments, because that's, you know, structure is key from from that point of view. So by the time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features kind of under my belt, and I had one in particular that I was, I think, the most proud of, and working on the hardest. And basically I started reaching out to people. And while I was out here for those first couple of years, I was also producing short films, because I had this awesome 10,000 square foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then it would just be sitting there the other half of the year. So I would get my buddies who had RED cameras and lenses and all these different things, and we would produce short films, and we write them and produce them. And I had two that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, you know, two different years. So I used that, and I used, like kind of my background, and I sent an email to Carson, who runs script shadow. Some people love him, some people hate him, whatever. And I attached a feature that I'd written that I was pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on his site for one of the, you know, independent hostings that he does. And I would say I got 100 emails from people that were basically, this sucks, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a dumb millennial. I mean literally that. And I got one email from somebody who ended up being my manager.

Dave Bullis 22:59
But, you know, am I going to ask you about the the manager email in a second, but I want to, before I do that, I want to ask you, why do you think you got so much hate mail? Do you think it was from a lot of well, no, I have my own theory about why you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams, and whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like a chance to sort of almost like, if I could throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm going to take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why do you think you got so much of those angry emails?

Michael K. Snyder 23:34
Yeah, I think it's a combination of that. And I think that, you know, I may have come off as a little little arrogant, because I was like, Look, you know, I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like, 25 24 25 years old. And I just could really benefit from hosting this script, yada yada yada. And I think it's a combination of people misreading my inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchair, you know, screenwriter reviewers, screen, screen. Screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and they're rewriting movies in their heads and on their sofa. But they're not actually out there hitting the pavement, and because of that inability to motivate themselves, they, they're haters.

Dave Bullis 24:16
Yeah, it's that. That's what I think, is that they, they're very angry. They're very, you know, a lot of the lot of people in this business, there's a lot of awesome people. And you and I talk about this, you know, because we talk a lot, and we talk about how sometimes this business is stereotyped as everyone is bitter, angry out to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people in this business, and there are, man, yeah, totally, and it's just and, but it's unfortunate, like situations like that where it's like, you really see the sort of dark side, where it's like, what the hell is this? There was actually a screenwriting group I used to be a part of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group, and I think it was, it was set to private or whatever, and I remember people would post in there, and. And they would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try to correct it, you know, and just not, not like, say, Okay, you're wrong, which is, say, hey, there's another way to do this. They would jump all over people. And finally, I said, Why the hell am I a part of this frickin group anymore? And it's

Michael K. Snyder 25:15
It can't all be negative, yeah, you know, it has to be. It has to be, there has to be optimism, because it's such a hard industry to break into, that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just gonna stop someone from potentially a cheating or dream.

Dave Bullis 25:31
And it's almost too like when you know, when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have people around you who are constantly just being like problem spotters and not problem solvers. You know, there's those, the type of people that you got to, like, jettison from the project as soon as possible.

Michael K. Snyder 25:47
Oh, totally, man. It's, it's, it's, you can boil it down to, you know, don't bring me the problem. Bring me the solution, really,

Dave Bullis 25:55
Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail around the head Mike and, you know, so, so as you sort of go back to talking about script shadow, you got one email that was from a manager who said, you know, I want to talk to you. So,

Michael K. Snyder 26:07
Yeah, it was like, I think you showed a lot of talent on the page. A little bit about me. He gave me his background, and he was like, let's, you know, let's grab some coffee. And he went and we got coffee. And I thought he was great. I was really knowledgeable nice guy, and, you know, I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at the end of the meeting, he was kind of like, all right, what do you want to do? And at this point, I had an idea of what I wanted my next project to be, and I had, I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably not going to get made. But if I could partner with the right person, I could get in front of the people who would potentially make it, and that would open all the other doors for me. And it was a script I wrote called The mouse Who Would Be King. And it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and created Mickey Mouse. And it ends with creation of Mickey Mouse, and I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking and all these different things. And so I told him that, and I was like, it's never gonna get made, but let's put it out there. Let's take meetings, and let's get into development, because, you know, we have time. We can do this now. And he kind of like, what does that mean? He was like, Alright, let's do it. And we shook hands, and we went from there.

Dave Bullis 27:22
So and then from there? Did you go start actually going to, like, all these different, like, pitch meetings and stuff?

Michael K. Snyder 27:27
Yeah. I mean, we beat out the story. You know, I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right? And we went to Disney World all the time. And at Disney World, they have an exhibit called one man stream, where you can go in, and it's like a Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit, and it was stolen from him, or, you know, he didn't really understand the full paradigms of his contract and universal. Owned it, and he put all this work into it, and he's like, I should own this, because I put all this work into it. And on a train ride back home to tell his team and his wife. He started coming up with Mickey Mouse, so I knew that that's what I wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my end scene. I had the idea of Walt Disney going on a train and having, like, this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse. And the way that I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we beat out the story, and we, you know, I read a bunch of books, and kind of just filled my manager's head with all this knowledge of Disney that he didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down. And he started sending, I send it to agencies, sends production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people. And then the real game began, and I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 28:57
So how long was it before, you know, you talked to the manager, you would beat it out. And before you got meetings, how long was that whole time period there?

Michael K. Snyder 29:04
Oh, man. I mean, I really knew the story, so I think it was kind of an easier development process, and it was just he and I. So there weren't a lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean, probably a six months, seven months, and then I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 29:21
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what were some of the what was some of the feedback that you were getting?

Michael K. Snyder 29:28
I, everyone loved the script. It was something where they were like, you know, we love the script, and we want to know what else you're working on, and if we can find something to work on together. And I started developing, like, I developed a TV show with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a TV show with image movers, which is Robertson Max's company, that didn't go anywhere. And I took that and I took that somewhere else and everything kind of led into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had, ended up giving me something else to work on, or they had something that i. Could fit into, or I showed some sort of interest in a project that they brought up in a meeting. And then, you know, that's really key, is you go in there. And of course, I'm nervous, you know? And I'm moved out here to do this, and I'm going to intermediate with these big guys, right? And they can be very intimidating, and the key is really to sell them on what your brand is and what your personal story is. And if you can do that, they're going to try and find something that they have that almost feels like a perfect fit for you, and then you'd have to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere, but they led to other conversations and other development things and and other specs that led to where I am today.

Dave Bullis 31:00
So you use that Mickey Mouse script, and that, that sort of became like a calling card script to get your story, yeah, to get your foot in the door. And they were saying, you know, did they say to you, Hey, Mike, we love, you know, the mouse would be king. What else do you have?

Michael K. Snyder 31:15
Yeah! I mean, there was a little bit of that. It was like, what else are you thinking about? Like, what else are you writing? And then, based on that, it was like, if I was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, Oh, well, we have this sci fi thing, or we are. We're looking at this book. What do you think about this book? Or, for instance, when I went to image movers, it was more so about the fact that I used to box, and I was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who had optioned all of FX tools short stories. And FX tool wrote Million Dollar Baby, right? So they had optioned all of them, except for Million Dollar Baby, because obviously Warner's had that. And they were like, Would you be interested in trying to build a TV show based on these short stories? And of course, you say yes. And then I started developing that. And when that fell through, I took all of the FX tool references out of what we had been working on, and I wrote a spec pilot, just without all those references that I filled it with my own personal experiences from boxing. And then that pilot became my TV calling card, and then we sent that out to everybody.

Dave Bullis 32:22
And so when you sent that out to everybody, did you sort of have like, a whole nother round of meetings with, like, the same, oh, yeah, management companies, or was it different?

Michael K. Snyder 32:30
It's kind of like a like an album. Like, you write an album, and then you go on a tour and you do all these concerts. Like, that's kind of how I look at it. You write a script, you give it to some of your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody. And then people finally get back home and they want to meet with you. And then you go on a tour, you know, and you're basically going to all these different generals and all these different meetings and and hoping that something turns into something else, you know, I never feel like the specific project that I'm going in with is going to sell. You know, I'm not there to sell that project. I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as a writer and to get on something either they already have, or just open that line of communication where I can pitch them something later on.

Dave Bullis 33:16
And so when you know you're building relationships, relationships, so now that's it, yeah. And so now they know when you come to the door, like, oh, you know, there's Michael K Snyder. He's, he's guy was, so, you know, brought the whole Disney project, and he's done this, and, you know, so, and you, you know, you so they're sort of, you're building a good reputation for yourself,

Michael K. Snyder 33:34
Yeah, because this whole town is relationships. That's really all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years ago, and was a, you know, creative exec somewhere is now, you know, VP production at a studio, right? And I can go to them and be like, you know, just just by just because I've kept in contact with all these people throughout the years, and then they move up and they change, and their mandates change, and you never know when you're going to have something that fits their mandate, yeah?

Dave Bullis 34:04
Because, you know, you know, tastes change, you know. And now everybody, I swear, I'm like, the number one question, and the number one thing I hear from doing this podcast is, you know, always have a TV pilot ready. Because now they all, they want something. Everybody wants something episodic now,

Michael K. Snyder 34:18
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch, and the specific networks who they have a deal with, or whoever they've worked with, has, you know, their mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch and then develop the pilot, because there's money. And then some producers are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out, you know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want to buy, but we just want to get the spec and then take that out. So it's really, you know, it's, everyone's different. Every network is different, every company is different,

Dave Bullis 34:49
Yeah, and you know, now, with everybody else getting into the game, like, you know, like Amazon, I mean, even, even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon, there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into the cut. Custom content game and, I mean, you just see all these, these different players now popping up, and all the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know, and then Hulu, and all your big, your big studios. So it's just, you know, now it's like, you have a lot of options as a writer.

Michael K. Snyder 35:16
That's right, yeah, you do. It's just, you know, getting into the conversation.

Dave Bullis 35:21
So as we talk about getting into the conversation, you know you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel for a very well known movie. And I know you can't talk too much about it, but you know, can you just tell you know, all the listeners about, you know what the treatment was that you pitched?

Michael K. Snyder 35:39
Yeah, totally. So basically what happened is, I'll go back and kind of preface it with another story. I was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend, about this SeaWorld orca trainer named John Hargrove, who worked at SeaWorld for 14 years and became like this elite killer whale trainer, and quit, and he wrote a memoir. So, I mean, of course, again, growing up in Orlando, I have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting on Shamu, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't want to see black fish. I don't want to know anything about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know. So she sent me this article, and I read it, and I read it, and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole that I just, I totally just jumped in. And I bought his book, and I read it overnight, and I started, like, as I'm reading the book, I'm like, highlighting scenes that I see in my head and different things. And he's the author, is just so interesting. His personal story so interesting, beyond the fact that he worked at SeaWorld, and the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach, and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him, was like, You got to cost my boyfriend. He's got a great idea. He knows how to turn your books to a movie. He can do it. We can do it together, you know, give him a call. So before he could call me, I had already, like, typed up a pitch. You know, why I should write this movie and and what my version of his story is, which was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and grow that emotional connection that he had with the killer whale, and so I sent him the email, called me the next day, and we talked for like four hours, and just became really good friends and and he was pretty much like, Alright, what do I sign? So from there, we wrote a 30 page treatment, and he took that and we pitched it all over town to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie's great, you know, this idea is great, but we need you to spec the script. So I spec that feature out, and then we sent that back, and it just it, just at that point, you know, this is a matter of a few months just to go back to what we're just talking about, those companies that already changed their mandate. And it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers, or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we don't think this fits that mandate, blah, blah, blah, so that's fine. So we sent that around and and I had met with an executive at Ellen pompios company calamity. Jane Ellen Pompeo is Meredith gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked about a couple projects, and she is a big anti Sea World person, so, you know, they only have a TV deal with ABC. They don't do any film. So I reached out to my manager. You know, on my my girlfriend is like, you need to, you need to send it over to them. And I'm like, well, they only have a TV deal. And she's like, Just do it. Just do it. Because the moral of my life and right now is my girlfriend, Rachel's always right, to be completely honest with you, and every time she told me that I need to do something, she's and I disagree with her, I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from so I've learned that the hard way, but she's always right. And so we sent it over to them, and they called and they were like, We love this. You know, we don't know how to do this, but we love this. We want to reach out to someone else to try and see if we can partner with them, because we don't make movies. And it just so happened that the person that they wanted to reach out to was Lawrence, who are donner, who, of course, is the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool, and she produced Free Willy, and she's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman, the yeoman, faithful weapon Goonies all that. And they're big anti captivity, anti fur, anti zoo, all that. So we went down the line with them, and they were interested. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that they felt they wanted to go down again, because they again, they produce Free Willy, and they got kind of attacked for that at a time, and they're like, we don't really want to do that again. So my manager went in, and he met with the head of their company, and he was like, Well, what else Mike, want to do? And my manager started talking to him about a couple of projects that I had that everyone considers to be Amblin in tone, as in Steven Spielberg's production company, of course. And he was like, well, we've wanted to do a Dooney two for a long time, and we've heard a lot of pitches, and we've gotten a lot of treatments from basically every writer in Hollywood, and nobody can get, you know dick and Steven and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel. What do you want to do that? And my manager is like, yeah, of course. He wants to do that. I mean, he kidding me, right? So I get a call and my manager, and he's like, What do you think about the Goonies? And I'm like, Are you serious? Like, of course I want to do this. I mean, of course I want to throw, you know, throw my card in it, and really try to throw in my hand. But it was quite the challenge. So we sat down and I watched the original movie a dozen times again and came up with a with an idea for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel. I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I force awakens the Goonies right?

Dave Bullis 41:17
Yeah. And I think again, because I don't know how, I don't want to go too in depth with it, but there is, there is one thing I want to say that it was, I think was awesome that you did it when this was, since, since will when I Willie's treasure was found, the town itself was basically had become, hey, nobody, it's not special anymore, because there's no more, there's no more treasure to find, right?

Michael K. Snyder 41:44
Totally, it's, how do you tell this story You know, 30 something years after the first movie took place, and it's also, you know, I love the Goonies, and everyone loves the Goonies, but it's a, it's a product of it, of the year it came out, right? And you really, it would be really hard to make that kind of movie today, because there's just constraints with the way budgets work, and just having an all kid cast and all these different things. So it was really, how do I, in a way, bring the magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's kids in the world of today's kids. And then how do I bring select members of the cast back and have them involved? So I don't know. I don't know if the movie will ever get made. I don't know if there'll ever be a new Goonies movie, because it's hard for everyone to agree on something. But, uh, you know, Dick has it and and he's reading it. I'm just waiting to hear back from him now.

Dave Bullis 42:43
Yeah, him now. So do you ever think, Mike, that you would ever maybe use this treatment as, sort of, like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like, you know, if you ever, they ever said, Hey, Mike, what else have you been working on? You'll say, Hey, I've worked on this goonish treatment for, you know, and as and I pitch it to Richard Donner. And, you know, would you ever, at any point, ever do something like that?

Michael K. Snyder 43:04
Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the Goonies. So when you bring that up, and if you know they want to, kind of know what the basis of the pitch is. And you know, without giving too much away, you give that to them, and then they can kind of see how your mind works when adapting other material, you know, source material, which is key right now, because that's what everyone's doing. And it's actually funny, because of the project that I'm most excited about and currently developing, that I can't really say the name of what it is and who the players are, but it's two veteran producers who made a lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that, you know, it was sort of a combination of beneath the surface, which is a sea world movie, that script, getting me in the door with them, and then me saying, you know, oh, by the way, right now I'm also writing a treatment and pitching a Goony sequel. And here's kind of how I'm doing and how I'm adapting it.

Dave Bullis 44:17
So, so, so as you know you're going to these pitch meetings, and as you are sort of working on things, you know, one of the things that you and I always talk about is development and, you know, sort of, yeah, and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of the things that you know you can sort of discuss about, you know, development, like, let's just say, for instance, let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say they, somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original spec script. They were to buy it. You know what? What are some of the things that happen in development?

Michael K. Snyder 44:47
It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of always felt, or still feel, that once you get to the point in your career where you're actually. Really meeting with the real producers, you know, not just the assistants or anything like that, but the actual people who can sign a check that everything just changes. But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right? So you climb up to the top of Everest only to realize that there's another like, you know, 600 miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall, and that that's how it feels. So I think, you know, when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're going to do one of two things, if it's a big spec, like, if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And that's partially to if it's a if it's a if it's a big studio, and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen brothers come in and they'll do a polish on all the dialog, and everyone will be happy to give us the money to make the movie. If it's a smaller, contained kind of genre film, like a 10 Cloverfield Lane or something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then, then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director who wants to come in and do a Polish as well. The other end of the coin is, when, in the situation I'm in now is I've had something pitched to me, you know. So I go in and I pitch five movies, and they want to make one of the movies I pitch, and then they also, but, you know, but first we want to do one of the ones that we're looking at with you, so they pitch me the movie. Then it's, you know, I got to look at the source material, which is a book. I got to figure out, how am I going to add my voice, or, you know, what's my style with this source material? And then it just begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm just still learning it as an as I go. Because one, every executive and producer is different, and two, it's just not something that anybody ever talks about in film school or anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's, it's very much like, okay, read the book and then give us an outline, right? That was the first thing. It's like, give us an online of how you would adapt it. So then I sit down and I write, you know, like a 10 12, page outline, and it's basically in prose. That's just how I write my outlines. And I send it over to them, and they're like, Okay, great. Well, come into the office and we'll talk about it. So go in the office. They tell me what they love, they tell me what they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it. Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true thing, you know, they categorize writers in two different categories, right? One is a writer who can write character, and the other is a writer who can write structure. And the key, I think, is to really understand character, because they can give you the structure, if you can come up with the characters, and you can come up with what the real story is behind everything, and why you need to tell this story, and why these characters are going through what they're going through, and not just, you know, by page 12, we're at the inciting incident and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, save the cat if you can come up with the characters, they are paid to kind of look at it like math and look at it like plotting. So they're going to look at what you give them, and they're going to say, Okay, so do you think this section of your outline is like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's for five pages, and then blah, blah, blah. And it helps you, it helps them to plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas you the writers, should be thinking about the characters. And when I look at a lot of movies and I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a complete structure and, you know, Stan or POV, and not from character. And I can see it when I watch the movies, and I can also see complacency, where it's like, you could have made that better, but you didn't, because of one of two things. One, you're getting a paycheck, and it doesn't matter, because you know, they're going to market a shit out of the movie, and millions and millions of people are going to see two because you're nervous. You're in the room with these guys. They have a bad idea, and you're afraid to tell them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod, go home and find out how to best tweak their ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to me, is what development is. It's this long process, six months to a year, where you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes that at the end of this process, they're either going to hire you to write the script or they're going to make a deal with you where you spec the script and then once the project gets funded, then you get paid.

Dave Bullis 49:45
Yeah! And, you know, there was an article, I think was in The Wall Street Journal about how, you know, why do so many of these, these big budget movies, feel the same? And that was the answer, was, they think that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure in there, because

Michael K. Snyder 50:09
It's all structure. Yeah, you. know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure, but you should be the story guy. The writer should be the story guy. The writer should be the person who makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters and the film or the TV series, the executives, the suits, the money people, they should be the structure, guys and girls. They should be the people who are looking at it from a plotting POV, so that when they call a director who comes in, they can beat out the acts with the director, and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math. Let them do the math, but you have to provide them with the numbers.

Dave Bullis 50:48
So, and, you know, I was talking to somebody about this too, was, you know, if you look at movies in from, like, the 70s and the 80s, you know, there's, there's all these, you know, really unique movies. And you sort of, as you sort of get to the sort of end of the 90s to now, you can see the big difference. And the big difference is it's almost like with now they want to sort of have creativity controlled, where they know sort of what they're they want to have it so it's almost like the project is handheld from all these steps. And they're sort of like, okay, you know. Now on page 17, this has to happen. PAGE 25 this has to happen. Stuff like that,

Michael K. Snyder 51:24
Right, right! Totally. It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever in my life. I've never I've read all these books and I've taken all these classes and I've and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached writing that way. I've always approached it as what is the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do I fit these characters and these themes into today's marketplace? That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry about what happens by page 30 or page 25 or page 60, not, at least until after I've written out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft, then I start to think, okay, how can I Whittle this down? You know, how can I get the action started earlier? But i The key is really to just do it, get it finished, and then you can always go back and correct it.

Dave Bullis 52:10
Yeah, it's like Tarantino, the Cohen brothers. They don't write, you know, by that either, you know, I know there's a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robert Regas, I know those don't, those guys don't write by the whole like, you know, hey, we have to have this happen by this page and stuff like that. And I think, you know, yeah, I think what had happened is, I think as you sort of try to crack this nut, so to speak, I think that's where you see guys like Sid field and Blake center with Save the cat. They sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write the somebody whoever script it is, how do they write this script and what do? All right, good. What are all the good things that they have in common? So these scripts that are, you know, the top one percentile, what are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And I think that then that's where all these systems come from, like, you know, and that's where all those books come from.

Michael K. Snyder 52:55
Yeah, it's hard to understand, and it's hard to read the books, and it's mark to kind of get what you know, the end goal is and understand the structure. But I just, I don't think anything should ever be approached with structure in mind first. I'm not saying you should have a first act that goes, you know, 80 pages, but I am saying that, you know, if you look at some of your favorite movies like you just said, they're not really going off of any structure they're going off of. What's the best way to tell this story?

Dave Bullis 53:25
Yeah, and I think also that, I think that's why independent film now is sort of having, you know, is sort of why, you know, crowdfunding and everything else, I think, is that becomes more popular. That's going to be where, you know, more people are going to say, you know, I could just crowdfund my movie for maybe 20,30, $40,000 and at least shoot it the way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to actually, you know, sell to an agency or whatever, right? Yeah.

Michael K. Snyder 53:50
And, I mean, you can, you can definitely do that. And there's definitely ways to monetize that and build a career off of that. I think my approach is, how can I get into the system and not change the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the system with with some of the bigger titles and and bigger films, and to not be complacent and just saying yes to everything, but to find the best way to tell the story. Because if you find the best way to tell a story, and you can pitch it to an executive or producer, and they know that what you're saying makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell you, no, they don't want to make a bad movie. Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have to be 10 steps ahead and be willing to tell them your idea.

Dave Bullis 54:40
Yeah, it's, that is, you know, key is sort of how to communicate, right? So, how do you communicate something without, actually, you know, nobody wants to say no, but, but you also can't say yes, so you have to communicate in a different way. And I remember,

Michael K. Snyder 54:55
Yeah, I mean, it's risk management, you know, you have to give them a way that they can tell their boss or tell their finance. Years, or tell the studio that they have a deal with you have to give it to them so that they can, they can express the idea or the story or the structure or whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to their bosses, right?

Dave Bullis 55:14
Yeah, exactly because that way, you know, obviously it's sort of, you know, that nobody wants to be the person that says no, because I was reading a book about this a few years ago, and they said, you know, if you don't want to tell you know, the next Vince Gilligan, no. And then, you know, if you, if you work for that, that that studio, and then all of a sudden, it's a hit, and then he comes back, says, hell, aren't you that person that said no to me, aren't you that guy? Holy, you're totally right. So, you know, and Mike, I just wanted to ask one. I have a few more final questions. I know we're starting to get out of time as I see the count. I didn't I realized this. This conversation flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking. So, you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are some of the top writing competitions out there right now for writers?

Michael K. Snyder 56:01
Oh, man. I mean, I think it all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to get some representation, then I think, you know, nickels is always great because it's such a well respected contest. I think that the tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot of people get reps based off of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know, put a little bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of the other ones, but you're going to get some money out of it. So I think it's really how you want to approach it. Do you want to build a career and get representation, or do you want to get, like, 40 G, you know, in the in the bank

Dave Bullis 56:42
And, you know, because I know you went through the, you know, script shadows website, and you were to, you know, I was just wondering, you know, because I know, again, as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the different opportunities out there. And, you know, that's, that's why I asked that question, just to see, because every time I turn around, there's a new writing competition opening up.

Michael K. Snyder 57:00
And, yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know? I mean, I don't, I'm not really familiar with them because I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I think blacklist is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations. I think, I think blacklist is, is still a very good asset. I like I said, I love the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great, and they have a lot of great managers and agents on their review boards that do judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities. And I know that from a genre POV, like, if you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script, there's tons of great genre contests, I don't that are offering cash prizes, or, you know, the opportunity to pitch a producer or, you know, producers are partnering with these contests. I don't. I just, I'm not well versed in their names and what they are exactly, but I agree that they're popping up every day,

Dave Bullis 57:52
Yeah, particularly the blood list that came out of nowhere. And when I heard about what that is, I was like, wow, that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way, for those listening, the blood list is, I realized I said it Mike. I was like, so the blood list is, the is a, is the ranking of the top horse unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this was put together by, I think, is it Kelly Marshak? Is her name, or Kelly March? I think so, yeah, it's, it's she actually put this together, and it's sort of like the blacklist, but for horror scripts. And, you know, I can

Michael K. Snyder 58:27
Horror is so underappreciated, man, and I was just having this conversation that is, like, some of the best directors come from our like, even someone like Spielberg, like, if you watch his action sequences, and like Jurassic Park, or some of his even the close encounters and et they're all tension and horror based, like it's all about building the anticipation for the scare or the reveal. And that's all classic horror filmmaking. And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially when you look at so many great directors who come from it.

Dave Bullis 58:59
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, field girl, all the people who started off with horror, and, you know, like, particularly, like guys like Sam Raimi, they sort of

Michael K. Snyder 59:08
Totally, I mean, look at his career, like, it's, it's, it's amazing. He has the career that anyone could dream for.

Dave Bullis 59:14
Yeah, he does. And, you know, he's a great guy, yeah, and he's been, you know, making all these great projects. And now, look, he's got the evil, dead TV series,

Michael K. Snyder 59:26
Exactly, and it's great, you know, he's doing great things with it. He's just, just launched Skydance television. He's got a whole new TV, you know, production company, and he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that is today's current TV market,

Dave Bullis 59:42
Yeah, and, you know, that's when, you know, you're over talking about episodic stuff. And that's something else too. Is again, because everyone, I swear, Mike, it's always about, you know, hey, feature films are great. But you know, do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that, like a TV pilot that could, you know, go on for 18 years, like, you know. But, but, yeah, no, totally, yeah. Yeah, and you know, that's, that's always something I'm too in the back burner that I've always been making sure I have is at least a couple, you know, TV pilots. And, yeah, exactly, you know, anything you know, just just making up, you know, just just in case, they actually say, you know, hey, you know, if what else do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared. And I also think, like, as we know, we talk about expectations and development and all and networking and all this stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't think you're ever really 100% prepared. You can just do what you can do. And if, and sooner or later, if you keep trying, you're going to be in the right place at the right time.

Michael K. Snyder 1:00:50
You got to love the process, you know? You got to love the process. You got to be willing to get a day job if you need some money. You got to be willing to sleep on a couch if you don't have a place to stay. You just got to love the process of hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to the ends of the earth, to meet all these producers and executives, and then hoping that you get into development. And then you have to learn to love the process of development, which is hard because there's not a lot of money in it. If there is any money at all. It's not a ton up front. So you have to really love the process and love what it how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend your case. You have to learn to love that. And if you can learn to fall in love with that, then the rest of it is cake.

Dave Bullis 1:01:40
Very well said, Mike, Mike, so we're just about out of time. And I agree, Mike, you have to love that process, and you're just in closing away. I just want to ask, you know, where people find you out online.

Michael K. Snyder 1:01:53
I'm always, you know, I'm on Facebook. Michael K Snyder, I'm on I'm on Twitter at MK Snyder 1990 I'm always looking people to reach out and connect, and if I can help, I'm more than happy to I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dave Bullis 1:02:12
Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my just my mental role decks, Mike, I think I might might have known you longer than anybody else. I don't know, though, there's two other people I've had on a podcast where I've known longer than you. So you're like, you're like number, you're like the third or fourth person in life, people I've known long. I love it, but because I just remember, there's a friend I had on here from middle school episode 1/5 with Chris per minute ago. And Chris actually teach your Chris actually was a producer on game over and he also actually now teaches film and TV production. And amazing. That was, that was a fun interview, and I'll give you this little snippet. It was just funny because he, he's like, I'm in. I'm teaching now. He's like, so he's like, Don't curse. Don't tell any weird stories before. And I'm like, Well, Jesus Christ, man, that's all I do is curse. If you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullis anymore. I All I do is Chris tell weird stories.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:06
That's awesome. That's your voice.

Dave Bullis 1:03:09
Love it. Yeah. Very, very true, Mike and Mike again, I want to say thank you so much. You and I have been friends for years. You know you're somebody whose opinion I really trust, and I really, I really just know that you were going to hit a huge, colossal Grand Slam soon enough.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:27
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And the feeling is mutual, my friend, you know, I think that, yeah, your opinion is one of the opinions I value more than many others. You know, I send you work before other people see it, because you're that guy, man, you have, you have great taste.

Dave Bullis 1:03:44
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody, make sure you go check out, Mike. Seriously, he this guy is always on the ball. He's always doing something really, really cool. So please go check out Mike. And Mike, anytime I'm gonna come back on, please let me know. I'd love to have you on, and I wish you the best of luck, man in everything.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:03
Thanks, man, I will. I'll take you on that

Dave Bullis 1:04:05
Sounds good buddy. Take care. Have a great Saturday.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:10
You too, my friend.

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BPS 453: How to Build a Screenwriting Career That Actually Lasts with Bob Saenz

January 8, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome Bob Saenz, a working screenwriter and actor whose career quietly dismantles many of the myths surrounding Hollywood success. Bob has written big-budget studio projects, indie features, and multiple Hallmark movies, while also building a long acting career that includes Zodiac, Nash Bridges, and voice work as the iconic villain in the Syphon Filter video game series. What makes Bob’s journey compelling isn’t flash—it’s longevity, adaptability, and a deep respect for story.

Bob’s career began as an actor in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he spent years performing in theater before making a conscious decision to balance family life with creative ambition. Rather than chasing the traditional Los Angeles path, he built his career largely outside of LA, commuting when needed and proving that proximity matters far less than preparation. His years on Nash Bridges became what he calls “the Don Johnson film school,” where he absorbed everything he could about directing, cinematography, sound, and production by simply asking to learn.

That on-set education shaped Bob’s writing philosophy. He believes that the only thing that truly matters in a screenplay—especially a spec—is story. Not structure formulas. Not screenwriting “rules.” Story. He openly admits he’s never read a screenwriting book, instead learning by reading produced scripts, watching films, and studying what doesn’t work as much as what does. In his words, many scripts fail because writers force stories into rigid templates instead of letting the narrative breathe naturally.

One of Bob’s most defining moments came early in his writing career, when the first script he ever wrote was optioned by a studio. The sudden validation inflated his ego—something he now looks back on as a painful but necessary lesson. When the project ultimately fell apart, he gained perspective: most optioned scripts never get made, and success in Hollywood is rarely fast or permanent. That experience reshaped how he approached relationships, collaboration, and professionalism.

Bob’s willingness to break conventional rules eventually became his calling card. His script Extracurricular Activity intentionally defied standard storytelling expectations—the inciting incident occurs long before the movie begins, the protagonist isn’t clearly defined, and traditional character arcs are ignored. Instead of hurting him, that boldness got him noticed. The script later became a produced feature nearly two decades after it was written, proving that originality often has a longer shelf life than trend-chasing.

In addition to studio and indie work, Bob has carved out a successful niche writing Hallmark films. He explains that while the brand has clear guidelines, there’s still room for strong character work and emotional storytelling if you understand the sandbox you’re playing in. Hallmark didn’t limit his creativity—it rewarded his ability to tell compelling stories within defined boundaries, a skill many writers overlook.

Perhaps Bob’s most valuable insight is his perspective on networking. He rejects the idea of transactional relationships, emphasizing that real careers are built through genuine human connection. Networking, he says, isn’t about asking what someone can do for you—it’s about building trust over time. His career, sustained across decades, genres, and mediums, stands as proof that being easy to work with is just as important as being talented.

In the end, Bob Saenz represents the kind of career many writers aspire to but rarely hear about—one built not on hype, but on consistency, curiosity, and respect for the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I have with me a actor and screenwriter who has written big budget feature films. He has written indie films. He has pitched a Hallmark and he has also acted in indie films. And he's also acted in David Fincher zodiac, which I didn't even know, as we find out about this during this interview, he did the voice of a video game that I loved as a kid, siphon filter. Does anybody remember siphon filter? He was the voice of the bad guy. I didn't even realize until I saw his IMDb, I played the hell out of that game as a kid growing up, and we talk all about that as well with guest, Bob Saenz. Hey Bob, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Bob Saenz 2:35
You're welcome,

Dave Bullis 2:37
You know, again, you're a person I've actually want to have on here for a while. The you know, the reason being, you're a working screenwriter, you're out there actually doing it. You're always posting great advice. So, you know, I wanted to ask about your whole career. And there's one thing I have to ask about right off the bat, I see on here, on your in your acting credits, actually. So when I'm gonna talk about writing, you actually did voices for the game siphon filter and siphon filter three.

Bob Saenz 3:03
I did voices really for all the siphon filter games, I was the main bad guy. I was the man in the shadows.

Dave Bullis 3:10
Oh, that's it, Bob. I'm blown away. I think we have to end the whole conversation right now. I don't think we can peak on this.

Bob Saenz 3:16
I sat in the Sony studios in Foster City, California, with a big gold microphone and did that deep, low voice for that guy who was the Senate, who ended up being the senator who was also the man in the shadows. It was really fun. And what was great about it is they actually paid me extra to stay an hour and make death sounds for people who got shot and got lit on fire and fell off cliffs and stuff.

Dave Bullis 3:48
You know, it's just funny, because I remember playing siphon filter in I don't, when did that come out? 2000 I think, yeah, I remember playing that. And I just now it just, it is amazing how small this world has become, because now I remember, I can remember everything about that first game, especially that first game, and that fact that I saw on your IMDB, that you did voices for it. I was like, I got to talk to Bob about this. I just have to,

Bob Saenz 4:16
Well, I still get, every once in a while, the the random email from somebody who's a siphon filter fan. And there's actually some siphon filter, you know, group that gets together and plays or something, and they have a magazine or something, and had had me, wanted to interview me for for it was, it was really funny. It's like the video game that wouldn't die,

Dave Bullis 4:42
Yeah, and that's just a testament to how popular the game was, because again, that first one, especially, I always remember that first one was, was just phenomenal. And I remember playing that and just being blown away. Actually, I remember it coming, you know what? The first time I heard about it, I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut, and they had a. Free disc glued to the top of the box for the original PlayStation. And I actually remember it going, Oh, wow, this is pretty cool. And I popped it in, and that's how I played. So for the first time,

Bob Saenz 5:09
That's, I've never heard that before, that's pretty cool.

Dave Bullis 5:14
Yeah, it's, actually, it's really cool.

Bob Saenz 5:18
Wow, yeah, no, it's, it was a fun it was a fun gig, and it was really in the people were so nice. The guys that produced the game, the guy was the voice director, the whole the whole thing was just first class, and it was really fun.

Dave Bullis 5:33
So Bob, just to sort of continue with this, you know, when you moved out to LA, was one of your original

Bob Saenz 5:41
I don't, well, let's get, let's get something really straight. I don't live in LA.

Dave Bullis 5:46
Oh, you don't. Where do you live?

Bob Saenz 5:49
I live in San Francisco. I have, I have, I have had this career totally out of LA.

Dave Bullis 5:59
So, so So let me ask you, Bob, are the rents is in San Francisco as bad as they say?

Bob Saenz 6:07
Yes, absolutely. My, my, they're worse up here than they are in LA up here is like the, the worst rents, I think, in the country, except for, like, Manhattan, the My daughter has a friend who has a two bedroom apartment in Mountain View, right near Google. That's like $4,200 a month.

Dave Bullis 6:33
Wow, you know, I mean, I just, I have a friend who also lives out there. He was actually on this podcast episode four, I think, David Huell, and he lives out in San Francisco. And, I mean, he and I were talking one day, and he was just saying, how rented, how bad the rents were out there in San Francisco. So more power to you Bob, more power to you because you're actually, you know, living in, you know, in your career.

Bob Saenz 6:56
I, I'm, I'm very fortunate I have a house. So it's, it's, that's part of the reason I don't also go to LA. I also don't go to LA because I'm happy where I am, and I'm four hours away, and I've never missed an appointment and and I can come up here and and work out of my house and and go down there when I have to.

Dave Bullis 7:19
So do you just plan, like, a long drive that day? Do you just take? Just get in your car and drive there?

Bob Saenz 7:23
I leave. I leave at five in the morning. I get there about at the latest, about 1030 in the morning, and I can get a whole lot of work done. And I usually stay for four or five days. This time I stayed for five days. Last time, I sleep for five days, because I had a bunch of meetings, and then we had two days of shooting, of pickups and and, and VFX and EFX on one of my movies.

Dave Bullis 7:51
Oh, that's good when, again, it's cool. You live so close. And because I've always wondered, you know, if you, if you do live semi close to LA, like you caught you, do you? How do you actually get out there? Because sometimes I've heard people say, Listen, I get in with a bunch of other people. We all go down, you know, they or they, they do something other, some other means of transportation to get there, but, but it, no, it's just good that you live so close and and so sort of taking a step back. The reason I was asking this was when you decided to move out to California, you know, because you were, now you're in San Francisco, you know, what did you go out there with the original goal of being an actor?

Bob Saenz 8:24
Oh, I'm for I was born in California, so I've always been here, but I've always wanted to be an actor for women. I was a little kid, and I was, I AM, from the time I was about, oh, 16 years old, I was doing like professional plays and musicals around San Francisco in the Bay Area, and was in the midst of a long run in a show called The fantastics, when I met my wife and I was it was one of those things where you say, Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this woman, or do I want to be a poor actor? And I decided I would spend the rest of my life with my wife. We've been married 42 years, and so when I was about four years old, after I had worked in a real job, but a good job, but a real job, I went to her and said, You know what? We got money in the bank, and it looks like the company I'm working for is not going to be around much longer, because they've been bought by somebody else, and they're screwing them. I think I want to be an actor again. And when I picked her up off the floor, she said, Okay, and I decided. Then people told me, You can't do it. You're it's you're not. You're living in San Francisco. You can't be a professional actor at your age. You can't, you know, you can't just change. And I said, why not? And I've spent my life saying, why not, to people, So it all worked. I got my my sag card in a movie called Angels in the Outfield with one line try throwing it over the plate. And I, I just marketed myself and and, and was relentless in my pursuit, and ended up with a with a recurring, very, very, very small recurring role on a TV series that's CB series that shot up here called Nash Bridges with Don Johnson and Cheech Marin. And I used my time my six years on that TV show to work on my writing and get it out to some of the producers on that show. And it kind of all snowballed from there.

Dave Bullis 10:53
So when you were reading the script for Nash Bridges like each week, you know, you would get the script for the latest episode, would you sort of analyze it in different ways? Bob like, would you sort of put on, like a writer's hat and say, you know, I wonder how

Bob Saenz 11:06
I would, I said to myself, I can write better than this crap, and, and, and, which was funny, because guys like Damon lindwaff were writing for Nash at the time, but, but I, I wrote an episode in edge. That's what I did, and they did buy it, but I got a lot of encouragements from some people, and that was, that's what spurred me on to write my first spec feature, which I optioned. So it's, it's been a weird trip.

Dave Bullis 11:44
You know, that kind of reminds me of Mike Beerman when I, when I had him on the show a few episodes ago, you know, he actually said, when he took his daughter out to those auditions, he actually got the script and said, Hell, I can write better than this. And, you know, we're both a part of that, of that writers group on Facebook. But it just, it's just funny to me, because, you know, whenever, because, I mean, I said the same thing to myself, honestly, Bob, I said to myself, hey, I can write or make a movie better than this. And that's sort of what sparked it. And then I got, then it was proved to me, was, oh, no, I can't. I just, but no, I'm just joking around. I'm but

Bob Saenz 12:18
What's funny.What's funny about the whole thing was, is, I've been a lot of movies, and I've done a lot of just small parts and things, but I've really enjoyed myself. And there are a lot of movies I've been in that aren't even on the IMDB. Thing, I don't even, I don't add things to the IMDB if, if they're on there, it's not because I put them there. It's because somebody else did. But I've been a lot of movies, and I've done, you know, some, some pretty fun acting jobs, but I found out I started writing, that I was a way better writer than I was an actor. I have a very small range right now. I'm holding my hands about three inches apart, and that's, you know, that's basically my range as an actor and and so I found out I was a much better rider, so I'm enjoying that a lot more.

Dave Bullis 13:03
So I have to ask, when you were on the set of Nash Nash Bridges was Don Johnson, a cool, as cool of a guy as he seems.

Bob Saenz 13:11
Don Johnson has a reputation, and sometimes I think unfairly, of being a not great guy. And I all I can do is, all I can go by is, is my personal experiences with him, and he was terrific to me, completely terrific to me. And I was there for six years, and couldn't have been treated better. I came away from that show with a lot of really good lifelong friends, including, you know, we don't talk now, but including, Don if I ran into him, I'm sure we would be just fine. It's, it was great experience. I was glad it was over after six years, because I wanted to move on and do some writing. But I it was a great experience. I wouldn't have traded for anything. I called it the Don Johnson film school. I learned everything I could learn on that set. It was great.

Dave Bullis 14:11
I like that name, Bob, the Don Johnson film school. I like that a lot. It seems like a hell of a film school.

Bob Saenz 14:17
It was, it was great. I went to him, I think, in the second season, and I said, Look, I want to learn everything I can about how this is all done. So when I'm not working, but I'm here, can I hang around on set and watch and see how each department does what they do? And he made a little sign of the cross, and said, bless you. Of course you can. And and said, that's how I learned. So I did. I at one point, I learned about why they use, you know, which lens they use, and, and I got to carry around the Steadicam one afternoon. And, and I learned from the sound. Eyes, one of the great sound guys ever, and I learned about lighting and what the grips do, and electrical and you name it, I just and props and everybody I got to know, and learned from them how they did what they did. It was an unbelievably great experience, and it's really helped me as a writer,

Dave Bullis 15:21
And that's something I wanted to actually follow up with Bob, is when you're on set like that, and you know, you're the you're, you're, you know, seeing everything through the lens of an actor, how has that helped your writing when you're writing characters?

Bob Saenz 15:34
Oh, a ton. It helps a ton. Because I've, I've been on the the other side of getting scripts where people don't sound real, like you get dialog, but, you know, was written without anybody ever saying it out loud. And and you, you know, it's, it's helped me not as much with character, because I really love to develop character in my my scripts, but it's helped me a lot with dialog, a lot in having dialog sound as real and natural as it can be, it also helped by you know, by learning how to do exposition, rather than you know, having you know on the nose dialog drives me nuts. So it's, it's, it's, really it did. Did you answer your question? Yes?

Dave Bullis 16:27
Because, you know, I imagine when you're, when you're actually sitting down to actually write, you know, a screenplay, and you're fleshing out these characters. I am, you know, we all sort of imagine an actor playing that role, and I imagine you when you're, when you're writing this that you're probably saying, well, probably saying, Well, what is the actor going to be doing while they're saying this stuff? Should they be sitting there that hopefully this isn't sort of like a, what they call a floating head scene, you know what? I mean, there's, I'm sure, because you're, you know, you have that acting background, you could sort of take that a step further and say, Well, you know, I know what actors are going to say in a scene like this. They want to be moving around or or they want to be doing something I do.

Bob Saenz 17:04
I really It sounds so fun. It's going to sound really funny, but I don't think about actors at all when I write, I think about servicing the story. To me, everything is about story. I've talked to so many producers and worked with so many people. Now, after all the movies that that I have been more than fortunate enough to have produced that that the only thing that matters, especially in a spec script, is story they want to know. If they've got a serviceable story that people are going to want to see. And that's when I write a spec. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that that services the story. Yes, if I if, if the character in that story needs to move around during a scene rather than just sit Yes, and I think about those things Absolutely. What would the character be doing in this situation? They're not going to be, yeah, floating hands Absolutely, but I'm, I'm a really, really story guy, and man, I never think of, I never imagined any actor playing a role. I want to write roles that actors want to play, and that that, to me, is more important.

Dave Bullis 18:19
So So Bob, when you actually started to write your own screenplays, did you grab any sort of books or anything that to sort of use as, like a sort of a guide or anything when you, when you, when you started writing?

Bob Saenz 18:31
No, I didn't. I've never read a screenwriting book. I know it's an announcement of most people, and they think, wow, I read lots of scripts, and I looked for scripts for for films that I loved, and thought, how did they do it? I read anybody's friends and neighbors or whoever had a script, and read scripts to look at, and most of them are bad, and looked at bad scripts and thought, how can I keep from doing some of these things, and I, I just wrote. The only thing I did was get myself a copy of final draft and to so that the so that the formatting was correct. But otherwise, no, I didn't. I didn't read any screenwriting books.

Dave Bullis 19:18
Well, that's amazing, because usually, you know, you do you do something like you go out, maybe you buy, you know, the big three that people usually buy.

Bob Saenz 19:27
Well, yes, infield, and, and the the the awful save the cat and, and whatever else you know, hero's journey, I guess. And then, no, I didn't, but I've seen save the cat wreck more scripts than you can imagine.

Dave Bullis 19:57
Oh, yeah. So, so well, actually, you know that? It's actually interesting, because, you know, whenever I'm in a screen readers group and somebody brings up, like, the hero's journey or this or state of the cat, or what have you, I usually tell them just to sort of put that aside. Because I just, like you said, it usually wrecks a lot more scripts. The reason being is they're always trying to force these things to happen that aren't organically there, if you know what I mean.

Bob Saenz 20:21
Well, like I said before, about story, when you do that, you can't service your story. You cannot you can't make a story fit into a preconceived box, especially a good story we could talk about, you know, some later on, some of the things later that where I've completely ignored story stories, story rule, supposed, story rules and and written some scripts that I just wanted to write, even though they broke, you know, a ton of the story rules and those, you know, the one of those scripts is the script that got me noticed in Hollywood. I broke almost every single supposed story rule going and I didn't do it on purpose. I just wrote a script that I wanted to see.

Dave Bullis 21:11
So, so let's talk about that, Bob, you know, you broke every rule. You know, what was the script and what were a lot of these rules that you broke?

Bob Saenz 21:19
Oh, it's called extracurricular activity. It just, we just finished filming the effect sequences this last weekend. It should be out in the fall, maybe, I think, and, and it's, it was a dream come true for me, because it was one of my favorite scripts I ever wrote, and the director and I, well, not I didn't matter what I thought, but the director pretty much saw it for what I saw it for, and wanted to have it be basically what I had originally written, you know, 18 years ago. So it's, been kind of like one of those dream come true deals. So and how did I break rules? Okay, the inciting incident happens. You know, 40 pages before the movie starts, the main character, the protagonist. Well, you don't even know who the protagonist is most of the movie. It could be one guy, it could be another guy, but they both could be the antagonist you don't know and and the the main character, who you don't know if is the antagonist of the protagonist has no arc.

Dave Bullis 22:41
So yeah, I could see that definitely breaking, seeing what rules that broke. You know, it reminds me to Bob, you know, it's kind of like, what, what Tarantino did Reservoir Dogs, what Sean Shane Black did with lethal weapon. It was almost like, you know, I, by the way, I loved, I actually love to read the script, not only see them.

Bob Saenz 23:01
Oh, hey, no one. When we get when we get done, give me your email.

Dave Bullis 23:05
Oh, cool. Thank you. I'm always interested in seeing you again, like, like you were just mentioning it sort of broke all the rules, but you use it as sort of, you use the break in, which I always think is great, because I think what happens is a lot of these screenwriters write with all these rules and maybe to certain ways, and they don't make the script theirs. So what happens is they keep it's almost like imagine if 99 screenwriters all were writing almost the same thing with the same description, and that one other person actually follows their own voice. And maybe it's a little off the wall and it doesn't adhere to to these formatting, you know what I mean, like this whole description thing, and all of a sudden it's like, wow, look at this, and it's so different from the pack. All because they just, you know, didn't go too crazy, but they, they were able to differentiate, differentiate themselves.

Bob Saenz 23:58
Well, I went pretty crazy, but, but the thing about it was, is that I never let anybody tell me you have to do something some way. My answer is, again, always want, why not? And I wanted to write something that was, you know, that was me. That was different. It was something that I thought might get the interest of some people, and it did. It's, it's literally the it, even though it is what I would consider to be and well, well, not what I would consider to be. As much I had somebody who, who was one of the hallmark producer, read it and tell me it was the anti Hallmark film and and which I felt pretty good about, but she liked it so much that she hired me to write a hallmark film. So, you know, you just never know where, where something you know one of your samples is going to lead you.

Dave Bullis 24:58
Yeah, that's very true. Lot. And speaking of writing for Hallmark, and you've actually had written a few movies for them,

Bob Saenz 25:05
Ohh yes, I have, I have, I have up to right now. I have three Christmas movies for them. I'm probably will have a fourth this year. We'll see. I've got a couple of other films for them, and I'm writing one right now. So they've been great that they've been terrific to me and and the Hallmark doesn't produce any films. There are a bunch of feeder production companies that that feed hallmarks, gigantic appetite for films, and I've worked for a few of them, and it's been, it's been really a joy to work with some of these wonderful production companies and wonderful people, and work with the Hallmark people who are terrifically nice, and it's, you know, they have A brand and and within that brand, and within the rules for those brands, you know you have to color between the lines, and if you learn how to do that and still tell a good story, you know they want to work with you.

Dave Bullis 26:12
So Bob, that's actually my next question was, when you're writing for Hallmark, do they let you come in and pitch your own ideas, or do they maybe have something they want you to work on already.

Bob Saenz 26:23
No, they let you pitch your own idea. Well, they don't the production companies let you pitch your own ideas. Yeah. And then they pitch your ideas to Hallmark. And if Hallmark, you know, goes for one, then you know, they come back and and you write it, or you will, you write a write a spec for them. And I've also gotten jobs where they came. Production companies came to me and said, here's our idea. We want to hire you to write it. So they've come all different ways.

Dave Bullis 26:54
And again, that that's that power of networking. And it's, you know, obviously, you know, you've been able to use all these scripts as calling cards. And again, you have such a great reputation. You're able to sort of parlay that in other work, which is something you know we usually talk about on this podcast, is how your network is your net worth, and basically how you're able to sort of use your network by doing good work is really critical of your success.

Bob Saenz 27:20
Networking is a really, really interesting thing, and I do it because I like people, and I like to, I like, you know, it's, it's fun to, it's fun to network and find new friends. But networking isn't about finding somebody in the industry and saying, Now, what can you do for me? Networking is all about building relationships that are true, that you meet people and you, and you get to know people and you, and you build relationships where you actually like each other. I have a lot of great friends that I also work with that that if they you know that we can be honest with each other and work together and with great relationships. And I it's easier to be nice than it is to be not nice. Not being not nice takes a lot of work. And I like people, and I like to work with people and and the best writers, you'll always notice that work over and over again are the ones that know how to cooperate, understand the business, understand that everything they write is going to get rewritten no matter what. And and work with the people and learn from the people that they're dealing with. It's it's so easy to to get jaded, and it's so easy to get upset about all the rejections that you get when you're in this because I've had millions of them. But you get to a point where you also realize that the rejection isn't personal that they don't they're not doing it because they want to get back at you. They're doing it for a million other reasons that you you have no control over. So you have to, you have to set yourself up in a business where that business do, the business is you, and your scripts are like your inventory, and you have to sell you, and the only way you can do that is being nice and cooperative and a good person. And it makes, it makes a huge difference

Dave Bullis 29:37
So that that sort of you know mythos, so to speak, of the screenwriter who is so most like a rambling alcoholic or something, and and going into meetings and and just sort of making demands those days are far over. Right Bob?

Bob Saenz 30:02
Oh, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 30:05
Or the idea

Bob Saenz 30:06
There's, there's a million scripts out there, and I'm not kidding. I mean, there's a million scripts out there, and there are 1000s and 1000s of screenwriters who want to be, who want to do this. And yes, if somebody is like, Uber talented, you know, they may put up for with them for a while, while they are successful, but, you know, they stop being successful and their phones stop ringing because they're not easy to work with. Nobody wants to work with with, with people who aren't easy to work with. And and you just, you just learn to, you know, learn to it. You just be. You treat people the way you want to be treated. And it makes a huge difference.

Dave Bullis 30:51
Yeah, I concur Bob. And, you know, there was a friend of mine when he does a lot of film work, both as like a producer and a director, and something he instituted finally, when he was doing a lot of, like indie film. And by indie film, you know, I'll just classify that. I'm gonna throw a number out there, 100,000 and under. Now, obviously I'm just throwing a number out there, but it's basically he would always be astonished when, like, first time actors or first time writers would show up and they'd have an ego, and he never got it, because they haven't done anything. How do you even know, what if you're good or not? Basically, you know. And so what do you do is he actually made a rule, no egos, and he would send that message, I'm sorry, Bob,

Bob Saenz 31:35
That's a great rule,

Dave Bullis 31:38
And I can I agree completely, because one of the things I said to him was that is such a great idea. Because what he says is, in a very nice way, he tells everybody, look, we all have had various successes and failures in this industry. Some of us have worked in this industry for 1015, years. Some people have just started working in this industry last week. So let's just all sort of, you know, leave all that at the door and just focus on this project right now, for better or worse,

Bob Saenz 32:06
Oh, I and, and it's yes. And what's so interesting about it is I had really early success with my writing. I optioned the first script I ever wrote to a studio, and, boy, my ego went out of bounds. It was out of control. And it was, I regret it like crazy, because I think I really alienated some people who were my friends at the time, because I was just such a jerk and and then the movie didn't get made, and which is, you know, now that I find out that 99% of all option films don't get made, it makes sense that it didn't get made because it's, you know, you're, if you're that lucky, 1% that's great, but, but at the time, it was just like this huge slap in The face and an unbelievable lesson to me that to never do anything like that again. And I'm kind of grateful now that it didn't happen at the time, because I could have been a real jerk and and I just it was a really, really sobering experience,

Dave Bullis 33:20
You know, but I can imagine, though, you know, Bob, when you have such success so quickly, it was almost intoxicating, you know what? I mean, it's almost like, almost a validation.

Bob Saenz 33:32
Oh, it was a validation. I mean, it still was a validation that I could write. But it was, you know, I hate to say this, it was like, too soon, it was like three months after I wrote my first spec script, it ended up at Polygram, the Polygram studios to get made and only because universal and MCA bought Polygram Corporation for their music catalog, and then canceled their movie business and dumped all their projects that I got it back. It wasn't on its way to get made and and it was just this unbelievable shock of of this happening that that kind of jolted me back to reality and out of the the jerkiness stupor I was in,

Dave Bullis 34:25
Because, again, I was just imagining, you know, especially when you get success that quickly, you know, have you ever seen the movie overnight? That's a documentary about Troy Duffy,

Bob Saenz 34:35
Yes, I have. I did, and I it's, it's painful to watch,

Dave Bullis 34:44
Yes, especially with everything that you hear about the Weinsteins, but they, in that film, look like the good guys, because they gave that guy everything, and he just pissed it all away.

Bob Saenz 34:59
Yep, yeah, dude, and it was, was, it was the, yeah, I didn't quite get that bad. I didn't, I didn't get to that point, but, but, yeah, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a movie that there's a couple of movies about making movies that everyone should watch. What one of them is, is that one, the other one is a movie that I absolutely love called American movie. Have you seen that?

Dave Bullis 35:28
You know, a couple listeners keep telling me to watch it. I have not seen it yet

Bob Saenz 35:32
That you need to watch that. It's about a guy making an ultra low budget film. It's a terrific film.

Dave Bullis 35:39
You know, I'm going to make sure to rent that right now, after we're off the phone, Bob, I'm going to make sure to go either rent that or buy it off Amazon.

Bob Saenz 35:50
It's a great documentary just this. I actually it's one of the few documentaries that I own. So it's, it's well worth it.

Dave Bullis 36:01
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check that out. And I've, you know, an overnight, as we were talking about, that's it. That's another great one. And there's always that joke about making a movie, because for those of the for those who've actually done it, actually gone through the stake of making a movie, they you there's a whole nother level of enjoyment, because you're like, I've been at that there's production meetings where tempers are flaring, or I've been at that point where you're so frustrated, you go, Why the hell did I start this in the first place?

Bob Saenz 36:31
Well, everybody's got to live through a first movie, and that's the truth. I mean, if you're a director or a producer or something, you have to live through that first movie and see all those mistakes that you make. First movies are like, you know, in the most part, first scripts, they're, they're mostly to to teach you a lesson, and not, you know, go much further than that.

Dave Bullis 37:02
Yeah, and you know that that's, that's, you know, another thing I always talk about, too, is meet how you make a movie. And always, you know, I don't mean this way it sounds, but always tell people to aim low for their first movie, because they, you know, you tell somebody maybe, go make a movie, and suddenly they want to a movie with $10 million of stunts and explosions. You're like, no, no. Think, think, think smaller so you can actually get it accomplished.

Bob Saenz 37:26
Well, yeah, there's the thing about movies nowadays, and it's really sad, I think, is the mid budget movie has disappeared. There are movies that that, that the studios make, that are 100 and $200 million 100 million dollars, and then there's the $5 million movie and lower. And there's not a whole heck of a lot in between. And there's about six, six entities that can make the $200 million movies and and there's tons of producers that can make the $5 million movies. And yet, people, the new writers, insist on writing these great big budget things that that there's no market for. There's zero market for. Last year, somebody was telling me this. I'm not sure that this is completely true, but last year they said in 2016 Disney didn't buy one spec script?

Dave Bullis 38:24
Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Bob Saenz 38:30
Yeah, it's, that's the way it is right now. So if you're gonna write a first movie, write it $5 million or less.

Dave Bullis 38:40
Yeah, I concur, you know. And as we talk about Disney and buying all these spec scripts, you know, I've seen that before, too, where, you know, it's, I was listening to a interview, actually, with the Weinstein Brothers, and they actually said the best way to make money in the movie business is just have a whole library of films, not make another one, but you're just selling the licenses and the content rights for, you know, temporarily selling them, just renting them out. And that's how they they would make a lot of money in the film industry. So when I hear stuff about, like Disney, like that, you know, I imagine either they're pulling back from already established properties, and I think Beauty and the Beast,

Bob Saenz 39:20
Oh, they're all they're making. Yeah, all they're making is things that are in there from their back catalog, or the Marvel which they own, or Star Wars, which they own, or Lucas, which they own, and and then they're using, you know, whatever else you know, they made Pete. They remade Pete's Dragon last year. They, I mean, it's just there. They have their they're going to do their their ride movies like Pirates of the Caribbean, and they're going to and they're going to stay away from trying to do anything that doesn't have an already established audience.

Dave Bullis 39:59
Yeah, and that's why, again, like guys like us, you know, we like you're just saying, you know, the under $5 million budget, there's a lot more producers there. And you know, also, as we talk about, you know, Netflix and Hulu and all these other, you know, distribution channels. There's a lot more ways to get your stuff out there,

Bob Saenz 40:27
But still, Netflix and Hulu and Amazon, if they're doing things with, you know, buying films or making films, they're all in that $5 billion or less category. I'm not talking I'm not talking about the TV, the the series that they that they end up buying, but those kinds of things. But Netflix and Hulu and Amazon are also buying 99% of what they buy from established writers, producers, directors, production companies and people like that. When they all start, first started, they were going to be open to, you know, all kinds of new people. And found out that most new scripts, you know, are are from from unknown writers are pretty bad, and had to regroup and decide to do it the way the studios do it, through agents and and production companies and that way. So it's, it's not as open as as some people think it is.

Dave Bullis 41:24
That's an extremely good point, Bob, because I think you're absolutely right, you know, because what happens is, when they do go out there and see all these unknown writers, you know, maybe they're unknown for a reason. Maybe their scripts have never gotten better. For instance, I actually, you know, have known, known writers, and they they've written like, 1011, 12 screenplays, and every single one of them, Bob is exactly the same as the one before it. And what I mean by that is, is literally, it's the same type of characters in the same type of situation, in the same type of genre, and it's just the same old the kids go in a house that supposedly haunted, to prove it's not haunted. But it turns out it is haunted, and they also dying one by one. And that is that pretty much sums up all, like 10-11, of those scripts.

Bob Saenz 42:17
When Amazon first got started, they had that, let's be open to everyone, and let's find I think their idea behind it was, let's try and get all the great scripts that the studios miss. So they opened up to everyone, and they had, they said, please send us your stuff and we'll read it all, and we'll be buying from unknowns. And they lost a million dollars on that, that deal, and pretty much decided, okay, this isn't the way it works. We need to go to established producers and production companies and writers and stuff and and they realize that that having a an open submission policy left them open to getting hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of scripts that they had to hire people to read.

Dave Bullis 43:14
And most of those scripts probably were read before through various, you know, gatekeepers, or maybe screen script consultants, packages and script consultants and stuff like that. And they all got passes, you know, so

Bob Saenz 43:28
Everybody's they all did. They all did. I can't I There may have been one or two that that Amazon looked at and and did something with. But out of the couple of 100,000 that they got. That's not a, you know, that's not a very good percentage,

Dave Bullis 43:47
Yeah, that's probably, what, less than 1%

Bob Saenz 43:50
Oh, it's probably less than a 10th of a percent. You know. The problem is, is that, is that, that there are when you set up an open submission like that, is you also set yourself up for people who have unrealistic expectations, that they figure, once they they are able to openly submit, that, you know, they can sit back and wait for the movie to get made. And this is a this is an industry especially for writers. This is an industry of unbelievable patience. You have to be so patient to try and be a screenwriter. It's, it's unbelievable that the average time between the time you write a script and the time that it gets made, if it does get made, is about eight years. In the case of extracurricular activity, it was 18 years. So you know, it's. It's there is no instant gratification in this business, none. There are no shortcuts to get something done, and there's no instant gratification. It is a long haul, nose to the grindstone, thick skin business.

Dave Bullis 45:20
And you know, actually, I wanted to ask you too about that. You mentioned notice of the grindstone. I want to ask about your process, Bob, and how you know you write screenplays. So when, when you know you wake up in the morning, or if you have a morning routine, what are some of the most important things that you do before you start a screenplay? I mean, you just start with a treatment. Do you just go right into it. You outline it all.

Bob Saenz 45:42
I come up with a concept, and the concepts can come from anywhere. I've gotten concepts from for my scripts, from something my kids said to me. I've gotten concepts from my scripts with conversations with friends. I've gotten concepts by reading an article in in a newspaper, or, or, you know, just thinking about what ifs and, or seeing something when I'm out somewhere, and thinking, you know, what if and, and coming up with concepts for, for, for whatever I'm going to write next, and, and once I do that, if it's a subject matter that I don't know anything about, one of the first things I do is hands on research. I actually go out and find people that do what I'm going to be writing about. And I asked them about how they do it and what they do. I don't go on wick, you know, on, on Wikipedia, on on, on the internet, or look at, you know, on the internet, I actually go out and find people. I've been, I've been on ride alongs with cops. I've interviewed police chiefs. I've interviewed doctors. I've gone into hospitals, I've I've gone I've done all kinds of things to get a good idea about how things are done in the area I'm going to write about, so that when I write it, it has its basis in reality, even if I'm going to write something that you know is completely out in left field.

Dave Bullis 47:15
So Bob, how do you approach like people, like, you know, the police and the chief of police, how do you actually approach them about maybe being able to sort of to get them to open up?

Bob Saenz 47:27
I call them and they say, Hi, I'm writing a script about this and this and this, and I want to get it right. And everybody says, Finally, somebody who wants to get what we do right, and they open up and talk to you. I was supposed to talk to a police chief and a small town police chief, because I wrote something that had a small town police chief, police chief in it, and I wanted to get stories from him and ideas from him and how it all works. And I was supposed to have 20 minutes with him, and I ended up with almost two hours because we were having such a good time. And it was, it was unbelievably helpful in in getting me to get a realistic idea of all kinds of different things that ended up in the script. So, yeah, people, you'd be surprised. The people really want you to get what they do, right? So they will open up and talk to you. Yes, I've had people say, no, no, I'm too busy. Or no, that's ridiculous, but, you know, you can always find somebody.

Dave Bullis 48:33
So, you know, that's actually something that I've done too. You know, actually one of the things that I did Bob, I went on Korea at one time, and I actually just asked, Hey, is there any police officers that would want to talk to me? And this is the reason why, and this is what I'm doing. And I got like, four or five responses, and I was able to talk to them, and, you know, it was amazing. And just, you know, and that's, that's what I did. I didn't actually call up anybody in particular. I just put that on courier.

Bob Saenz 48:57
I think that's great. And you just do what you have to do. You do. You know you do. And you might know somebody that knows, somebody that does what you're looking for and, and it's just, it's a matter of just again, networking and and finding out about things, and then, if you have, you know, if you're doing your, your your, you know. And if I come up against something that in a script that I that I don't know about, I'll make an effort to find out about it, not just make it up. I read a script one time, unfortunately, from another writer that took place in a hospital, and when I finished reading it, I called him and I said, Have you ever been in a hospital? Because nothing in this script would ever happen in a hospital, ever. And he said to me, but it's a movie, and that was the end of our conversation.

Dave Bullis 50:03
I just imagine the the hospital fight from machete, where the where they know all the stuff's happening in the hospital, but then again, it's a movie, right? Yeah, but, but, but, you know, but that's of a movie. And machete, I went in expecting, you know, you know, so over the top, you know, so, I mean, I You probably can't go in too deep, but was it just, like things like, was it a shootout? Was it just,

Bob Saenz 50:29
No, it was just, it was it was they were commandeering an operating room when nobody was in there, which you couldn't possibly ever do. It was, it was just a lot of things like that. It was just, it was just ridiculous. And, and there was, it was just, you know, you could have a shootout in an operating room if you wanted to. That would be fine, you know, but you have to portray the operating room correctly, and how they up, how they work. That's not and Machete is great. I mean, that's, that's Rodriguez, and that's Danny Trejo. And by the way, Danny Trejo is a great guy, but that's, that's a whole nother thing, that's, you suspend your belief in something like that.

Dave Bullis 51:15
So have you actually worked with, with, with Danny Trejo Bob?

Bob Saenz 51:19
I was on a TV series for six years called Nash Bridges, where I again, like I had a really, really, really small part, but there had so many great guest stars. I sat down with Robert Rodriguez one day and and picked his brain for about 2030, minutes. Trejo was on, and he was great. What a nice guy, just a terrific guy. And I got to meet some, you know, I got to meet some, some really, really fabulous people. And some people that, to me, were like icons. One of my favorite movies in the entire world is the producers. And the guy that played Han Friedkin, Kenneth Mars guested on Nash once, and I got to sit down with him. And it was, it was unbelievable. And James Hong from who played, you know, low pan in big trouble, Little China guest started, and I got to tell him, you know, I'm not worthy. But it was, it was really, it was really an amazing experience to be on that show was kind of Forrest Gumpy. I got to, you know, be there and meet and see all this wonderful stuff.

Dave Bullis 52:33
You can't see this Bob, because it's a podcast, but to my right, on the on my right side wall, here is a signed James Hong headshot of him as lo pan, that I actually got a few years ago at this event that he actually did here in Philadelphia, Chinatown. It was at this meet and greet thing, and he was one of the he was the honored guest, and I got to meet him, and it was, and he's absolutely phenomenal,

Bob Saenz 52:58
Yeah, it's just great. He's really funny, and he's really, you know, he I said, I walked up to him and and I said, Hey, I got to tell you something. And he looked at me and went, low pan.

Dave Bullis 53:15
So it was great. Yeah, you're Cassandra's father in Wayne's World, too. And he goes, Oh, yeah.

Bob Saenz 53:23
No, never came. Never came up. No, no. All I could think about is, is Jack Burton going with fire coming out of his mouth. And that was it that was for me

Dave Bullis 53:42
And see that's such a great a great story, Bob. Because, I mean, I, I've met him, actually twice. And you know, everyone who's always met him has always been like, wow, he's just, he is phenomenal. And when I met him, he was right before Kung Fu, Panda, two or three. I can't remember which one, but he actually showed a little clip. And he goes, he goes, Listen, everybody. He goes, You can't video this, or I'm gonna get beat up by Pixar. He's like, Pixar is gonna come to my house and abduct me. He goes, so don't, you can't, you can't actually show this. And it was just, it was just funny, because you know the James Hong delivery of that line. So picture what I just said as James Hong. And now it's funny.

Bob Saenz 54:19
Yes, I can completely picture but anyway, he was great, and he was fun on the show, and it was really wonderful to, you know, sit down and talk to him. So I've had, it's been, it's been a really kind of fun, you know, experience to be an actor and doing these things. I've worked with some unbelievable directors. I've worked with, I've been lucky enough to work with Coppola twice, and then as an actor, and Ron Howard once, and Clint Eastwood twice, and David Fincher once, in an amazing experience. And I just it's just been like Kismet. And thank you, God, you know, having me be able to have these experiences, because I came away from them happy and amazingly educated about what I saw and took in.

Dave Bullis 55:13
So what was that project that you worked on with Fincher?

Bob Saenz 55:21
I'm in zodiac,

Dave Bullis 55:21
Really,

Bob Saenz 55:21
Yeah, in the I got, it's great. I got a letter from Warner Brothers right after I did it, and it said, you're in the you're in the movie. Come down to the premiere. We can't wait to see you, looking forward to it. We'll give you the information when we get it. And then a couple of weeks later, I got a letter saying they cut 18 minutes out of the movie, and your three minutes are in those 18 minutes. And thank you very much, and please don't come to the premiere. So I thought, Okay, well, I've been cut out of, you know, worst movies. And I, you know, it was one of those things you can't take the experience away, but I was hoping, and then I got a check, a residual check, and if you're not in a movie, you shouldn't get a residual check. So I called my agent, and I said, I got a residual check, but I don't supposed to get it. I don't want to cash it. And she said, Hold on. And she checked, and she came back and said, You're in the director's cut, and you do get a residual check, so go ahead and cash it, and please send me my 10% so I'm in the director's cut. So now it's now don't watch that two and a half three hour movie in the director's cut again to look for two minutes of me, but it was fun. And Fincher is just, he is the greatest. He was so much fun, and so just a terrific guy. I really enjoyed it.

Dave Bullis 56:55
So what does, what does he do? Bob, that is that is different. That sort of makes him Fincher, if you know what I mean, is it just by directing,

Bob Saenz 57:04
I've told, I've told, I've told the story before on another podcast, so I'm not going to tell the entire story. He cast me and then brought me in as an extra, not telling me. He cast me because the character was nervous and and then sprung it on me the day of the shoot. And and then, and then, had me, had me look at the script. And then, once I felt halfway comfortable, said, Okay, we're not using the script. We're going to do this all, and we're going to ad lib everything. And then he said, Oh, by the way, the real guy who you're portraying was a chain smoker. Do you smoke? I said, No. And he said, You do now. And it just went to really help my performance. He was great. I mean, he was, he was, he was, couldn't have been, couldn't have been a better experience as an actor. Couldn't have been. It's, it was one for the books I'm it's, it's, you know, it's one of those great memories that no one could ever take away from you.

Dave Bullis 58:17
So just a quick follow up, Bob, one last venture question. Did how many takes did you do of the scenes? Because he we all, I've heard stories about Fincher where he does a lot of takes of the same thing. Did you have to do a lot of Did you do a lot of takes that day?

Bob Saenz 58:31
I Yes, many multiple, multiple, multiples. But the greatest story was, I play a cab driver. Then one of the scenes, I was actually driving the cab, and Jake Gyllenhaal runs across Mission Street to the Chronicle building, and all he does is run across and and he hits my cab with the palm of his hand as he's running because I'm to get stop is trying to run across the street. And I stopped, and about take 74 Gyllenhaal walked up to the window of the cab and looked at me and said, Do you want to do that again? And I said, Hey, he goes, I don't. And he walked over to Finch and said, I'm done. I'm through with running across the street. And yeah, 7070. Takes. So about running across the street.

Dave Bullis 59:26
So, so I just want to just sort of reiterate that, because we kind of lost the connection there for a second. So Jake, but what? Jake went back to Fincher and just said, I'm done,

Bob Saenz 59:35
Yeah, I'm done with this.

Dave Bullis 59:40
See stories like that. Bob, that that that story is why I like that, why I like filmmaking. It's just stories like that. And again, like you said, an experience you're going to take away for the rest of your life. Oh yeah, And Bob, we had a few questions come in, and we've answered a lot of them as just in the course of conversation, as it naturally happens. But there is, there is one question that I thought I would ask, and I'm sorry I didn't. I don't know who actually asked this. I will find out in a second. But just about marketing yourself over the years and promotion. This came in through this screenwriters who can actually write a Facebook forum. I wanted to ask about that. What are you so what are some of the things that you've done? And advice for writers, for marketing and promotion over the years, for people who want to promote their own work,

Bob Saenz 1:00:36
Anything you can do that's not illegal or stupid. That's, that's my, that's, that's pretty much my whole, you know, my whole outlook on, on marketing yourself. I did it a lot through networking, because I was lucky enough to be an actor and be on sets and network with people and get to know people first before I said, Oh, by the way, I'm writing something. I didn't walk up to, you know, people I met right away and say, oh, you know, by the way, I'm, you know, I'm a writer. Will you read my script and make me, you know, and buy to make me a millionaire? Which I've seen people do. I again, I establish relationships with people. Networking is incredibly important. It takes a long time, but it's really the best way querying producers going on IMDb Pro, invest. You have to if you're going to be in business for yourself, like I said before, in your marketing yourself, you have to invest in your business. You can't be cheap about it. So you have to buy things like IMDb Pro, and you got to go on there, and you've got to look at the producers who produce the kind of scripts that you're writing, and query them, you know. And 99% of the time, you're going to get no answer or a pass. But the thing about it is, that all it takes is one person to believe in you and believe in what you do, one person in it to begin with. That's all it took for me, one person. And I think that that the problem is, is that people don't want to do the hard work that it takes to find that one person. So you query producers, and you keep querying them, you query you query managers, agents. Agents aren't going to want to talk to you. Don't query agents. They don't want you. They don't need you there. They've got what they want. If you're when you get established, then they'll talk to you. But managers, managers will talk to you. There's lists of managers on Done Deal pro there's lists of managers that you can find on the internet, find the ones that are specializing in the kind of things that you're writing, and query them. And then, you know, do it again, and then do it again, not too not too quickly, but, you know, and keep it up and keep I used to keep a big chart of who I sent stuff to and when I sent stuff to him, and what the response was. So I so I was educated and knew, you know, who I'd sent stuff to before, so I wasn't an idiot and sent the same thing out to them again.

Dave Bullis 1:03:23
So it's like, they're like, Man, this, this guy sent me the same thing again. I didn't like it the first time.

Bob Saenz 1:03:28
Yeah, yeah. You don't want to do that, because actually, surprisingly enough, some of these places do actually keep track and, and, and you don't want to be one of the people that they see something from and just delete. So you want to be you have to be smart and business like about it. It's and and, and Cory and networking and, and some of the contests are good too. I've had a friend who, I've got a couple of friends who did really well in the nickel, and they got managers out of it, and they got some writing assignments out of it. So the nickels a great contest to do well in Austin is another great contest to do well in. And after that, it kind of falls off precipitously that, you know that there are so many screenwriting contests now that producers really don't care if it's Austin or or the nickel. They care if it is anything else. There's not a whole lot of interest. And then the blacklist. Every once in a while, can do something on the blacklist, not very often, because it's like anything else, it's you had the same chance as you do with a query or anything else. If you do well, that doesn't mean that somebody's going to option your thing, and then you can do well and and sometimes somebody will option something, but then again, a lot of most options still get made. So it's, it's, it's a it's trial and error, it's being organized, and it's a. Figuring out how to network. You can net work on Twitter. You can network on Facebook. I've met a lot of really wonderful people on the writing in the writing group on on Facebook, and I've met some incredible people who are going to be my lifelong friends on Twitter, who are, who are really some fine, fine writers that I really respect. So you just never know.

Dave Bullis 1:05:28
Yeah, that's very true, Bob. I mean, hey, look, we're friends. And you know, we were friends for a while, and you know now we're, we're being able to chat like this,

Bob Saenz 1:05:38
Which is great. I like your like I said before, I really like your podcast. You you ask good questions, and you listen and you ask good follow up questions, and you have interesting people on. They can't ask for more than that.

Dave Bullis 1:05:53
Oh, thank you, Bob. I really appreciate that. And it's, it's always good having, you know, amazing guests like you on, and, no, I mean, seriously. I mean, I'm sorry Bob?

Bob Saenz 1:06:03
I met, I had a young writer who wanted to come and have and have a drink with me. Last I was in LA and I it was late at night, and I said, Yes, I'd be happy to and he comes in and he says, Look, I'm just so in awe and all this stuff. And I said, stop, stop. I don't, I don't handle that well behind that doesn't work for me. Let's just sit like a couple of guys and talk about right and and that's Thank you for saying I'm amazing. I just, I just, I am. I am, who I am, and it doesn't change from, you know, from person to person and and I love what I do, and I had so much incredible help when I was first getting started by some phenomenally talented, wonderfully influential people, that the least that I can do, as far as I'm concerned, is to give some of it back.

Dave Bullis 1:07:07
And we're all very appreciative of that, Bob, because, you know, I'm always fortunate again to find guests like that, who who are very interested in sort of doing, you know, podcasts like like mine, and, you know, trying to give back and and sharing the knowledge and the wisdom from from climbing those mountaintops, so to speak. And I've been very fortunate. I've had a lot of great guests on, yeah, so it's, it's, it's been, it's been a long journey.

Bob Saenz 1:07:34
It's great. We'll keep it up. I will continue to listen and and thanks for having me on. I really, I really appreciate it. It's, it's, I enjoy doing things like this. It's, it's always fun.

Bob Saenz 1:07:45
Bob, where can people find you out online?

Bob Saenz 1:07:49
You can find me online at, at, B, O, B, S and Z, at, on Twitter, I have a blog that I am not really good about keeping up with all the time. But some, some buddy that rates screenwriting blogs somewhere rated me in the top 10, which I was amazed at. And it's called, it's Bob Saenz B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z.com/blog, and I'm on Facebook, but and at Bob Saenz, B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z, and I will, and I'm not, I know, and I'm not the Bob Saenz, who's the insurance salesman in Texas?

Dave Bullis 1:08:36
Oh, that's who I thought I was talking to. Yeah, damn, I I will link to all that in the show notes everyone, by the way, so everyone who wants to talk to Bob, I'm going to link to all that.

Bob Saenz 1:08:49
Yeah, and, and, and you can actually, I have a, I have a business email which is, which is on my website. So it's not anything that is, isn't out there. It's Bob at, bobsaenz.com,

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
Bob Saenz, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and this has been an absolute blast.

Bob Saenz 1:09:18
My pleasure. Thank you for having me

Dave Bullis 1:09:21
Take care, Bob.

Bob Saenz 1:09:23
Thank you. Bye!

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BPS 452: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac

January 1, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On this episode, we sit down with Danny Mac, a Canadian filmmaker, actor, and producer whose story is a masterclass in indie filmmaking grit. Best known for his mockumentary Heel Kick!, Danny proves that passion and persistence can turn any dream—no matter how outlandish—into cinematic reality. Without the luxury of film school or industry connections, Danny started his filmmaking journey in Edmonton, Alberta, a city without much of a film scene. With determination as his tuition, he taught himself the craft by writing, producing, and shooting his first feature, Love/Hate, entirely on weekends while working full-time during the week. That film, made with a mere $40,000 budget scraped from his and his co-producer’s life savings, became his film school—and, against all odds, it sold to a Canadian broadcaster, allowing him to break even on his very first project.

Danny’s path wasn’t without struggle. As a first-time filmmaker, he wore every hat imaginable—writer, producer, actor, and sometimes even location scout and transporter. The grueling process taught him one thing: passion can push you through exhaustion, but preparation and teamwork are what truly make a film succeed. His next project, Heel Kick!, would be an evolution of everything he learned—bigger in ambition, sharper in execution, but still rooted in the DIY spirit of indie film.

Heel Kick! follows two backyard wrestlers who decide to “go pro” after years of goofing off, only to discover how brutally difficult the dream really is. Inspired by Danny’s childhood fascination with wrestling and his cousin’s real-life experiences at a wrestling academy, the film explores both the absurdity and humanity of chasing an impossible goal. What makes the story shine is its authenticity—Danny and his co-star actually trained at a professional wrestling school for six months to perform the stunts themselves. This dedication gives Heel Kick! a raw, physical realism rarely seen in low-budget comedies.

When it came to funding and promotion, Danny combined old-school hustle with modern strategy. He launched a short GoFundMe campaign—not to start filming, but to finish it. Since the movie was already complete, fans could trust that their donations were going toward its release and screenings. That transparency paid off—literally. In just three weeks, he raised $12,000 to cover post-production and distribution costs. And while many filmmakers dread crowdfunding, Danny approached it with honesty and gratitude, proving that if you show people real progress, they’ll show you real support.

Danny also secured the backing of Greg Miller, a YouTube and gaming personality known for his Kinda Funny network. Their friendship began after a charity event in Vancouver and evolved into a partnership when Greg joined as co-producer to help spread the word. His involvement brought Heel Kick! a new wave of attention, particularly from online audiences passionate about wrestling and indie entertainment.

Ultimately, Danny Mac’s story is about more than filmmaking—it’s about perseverance, community, and creative resourcefulness. His success with Heel Kick! reminds filmmakers everywhere that you don’t need a massive budget or a Hollywood connection to tell a great story. You just need to believe in your vision, work harder than anyone else, and embrace every lesson along the way. Whether you’re wrestling in a ring or fighting for your first film, the key to victory is the same: never tap out.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:03
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
I have a Canadian filmmaker, actor and producer. He produced a film and actually started as well and directed it. That it's, you know, very close to what I talk about a lot on here. Lot on here. And, you know, it's pro wrestling in one way or another. I know I don't talk a lot about pro wrestling because I don't watch it in years, but when I was growing up, I watched it a ton, probably way too much. So we just had Nick, Nick Mondo on, who was a professional wrestler turned filmmaker. We've had a few other filmmaking projects here and there that involve pro wrestling, but this one is a unique one onto itself, because it really involves backyard wrestling. And I love the tagline for the film too. It's unprofessional wrestling, which is which is a genius tagline. So we're going to talk all about this new film, heel kick, which is actually going through a little tour right now, and then it'll be out later this year. And we're also going to talk about how my next guest actually made money with this with his first film, believe it or not, which is just crazy to think of, right making money with your first film. We're going to talk about all that stuff, film school, networking, finding contacts, and we go with a lot of really cool producing stuff in this too. And we talk about pro wrestling with guest Danny Mac.

Danny Mac 3:05
I did not go to film school, and it is something that I knew I wanted to do when I was growing up, but it just seemed too insurmountable and too difficult. You're talking to me now from Edmonton, Alberta, where I grew up. I'm just back here for my grandma's 100th birthday, and then I'll be back to Vancouver tonight. But growing up here, where there's essentially no film scene, and it does have a fairly decent theater community, but really, film and television, there's not nothing, and there's no one who's doing it. So I, you know, I didn't have any inspiration surrounding me, and the prices for film school were really high, and it's something that my mom and I were looking at when I was 15 or 16, because clearly I had an interest in it, and I needed some sort of creative outlet, because I was, you know, kind of just being a little brat of a kid, but it seemed too expensive. And yeah, like I said, there was just nothing around me to indicate that it was something that that I could pull off. So I kind of like, let it I wouldn't want to say, let the dream die. But, you know, I went to university, and I still hadn't picked a major or a minor after like, two or three years, and I was taking a lot of studies, you know, acting because I liked it. So I was training here and there, but I finally realized, you know, I could probably just make a movie myself. And so began the journey of me producing my own projects.

Dave Bullis 4:32
So when you actually wanted to make your own movie, like, what were the some of the first things that you did to sort of take those steps to actually make that movie?

Danny Mac 4:40
Well, we myself and my one of the co stars in heel kick and and my fellow producer, Cooper B Bo, we would look at scripts to get an idea of how to format them and how they were written. And then we, you know, just started to have writing sessions together. And. Anyone who would want to work on something creative, we would. So we were writing sketches for the fringe film play Theater Festival that we have here in Edmonton, and anyone who wanted to do something, you know, and throw it up on YouTube, we were contributing. But he and I were really interested in writing feature films. And then, because, you know, we're we're actors and we're writers, but we don't really know anything about the technical aspect of filmmaking, we would seek out people who were in film school and ask them if they would want to come help us shoot something. And since we were somebody, the only people making an independent feature film in the city, we got a lot of attention right away, and before we knew it, we had a film crew on board, and they were helping us shoot our first feature film, and this was back in 2011

Dave Bullis 5:51
So when you were actually you got all that attention. Have you know? Have has things changed then? So, like, I mean, you know what I mean? Like, everybody you know who has an iPhone now as a filmmaker. So have you noticed, have things actually changed where it's become passe, or maybe it's become the point where it's like an LA, where it's a pain in the ass? I mean, have you noticed any difference

Danny Mac 6:11
Just in regards to, like, the amount of people who are making film you mean?

Dave Bullis 6:15
Yeah, exactly, and you're in your area.

Danny Mac 6:17
Well, I mean, yes and no, because Vancouver is a pretty big film city. A lot of stuff is filmed there. It's a big service city, so a lot of big productions come through there and then. And you know, Vancouver actors will help round out and fill out some of the roles that are needed or in. The crew gets a lot of work down there as well. But, yeah, it's funny how you say everyone with an iPhone can be a filmmaker, and that's true, and I think it's so much easier for people to make films these days, but the amount of drive and determination that it takes to pull something like that off that doesn't change. It's still back breaking, and it's still a serious commitment of, if not money, seriously time. So while it's easier than ever, I don't think more people than ever are actually doing it. Because you know what, I mean, it's tough to take that plunge. And you know, first of all, it's tough to sit down and write a film, it's tough to assemble a crew and a cast, and it's tough to shoot the thing and then edit it and then sell it. So, you know, as much as we have the resources available to us, I actually don't see people taking advantage of it that much. Because I think people do understand how much work it is, and that's kind of a scary like, it's a turn off for people.

Dave Bullis 7:29
Yeah, it's true. And, you know, when I, when I say, Everyone who thinks, who has an iPhone is, you know, considers themselves a filmmaker, it's just because, you know, it's kind of like that idea, you know, I mean, I've done commercial work to work, commercial videography work. And, you know, the guy's like, hey, my son or daughter's got an iPhone. Why should I hire you? Or, you know, people who want to start their own vlog on YouTube or but, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. You know, it does still take all that time and planning and effort, which is why most movies don't get made, right? They, they're, you know, nobody is normal who actually makes a film normal is sitting on your call talking about making a movie, right Danny?

Danny Mac 8:04
Yeah, everyone on earth has done that. I got a great idea for a movie or a book or a TV show or whatever. Everyone has said that at one point in their life, it only takes truly insane people to, you know, think that that's something they should actually try to do for a living.

Dave Bullis 8:18
You know, it was funny. I one time I actually came home from a shoot one day and I was so tired I just wanted to shower another shower. I already taken one that day. But, you know, it was that long ass day, and I sort of plopped down the couch and a friend of mine, you know, came over, and he was like, oh, you know, what were you doing today? And Bob blind, he goes, Oh, man, I got this idea for a movie. And I'm like, I don't want to ever talk about movies again. I said I am so tired right now, like I'm just aching all over. I was sunburned, yeah, and

Danny Mac 8:51
That eventually happens. Like people say, You know what would be a great idea? And you're like, you know what I mean? Bringing my own idea to life, it's stressing me out. So please keep your ideas to yourself at this point, because I can't help you. My I'm losing my mind working on my own projects as a sad it's sad to say, but yeah, I definitely hear you.

Dave Bullis 9:12
Yeah, it's that whole idea of like, that friend that's always like, hey, you know, we're a friend from high school. Do you get that? By the way, I don't, I don't talk about that a lot, but I have friends from high school who constantly send me messages about some script or or an idea that, or they are. One wanted to shoot a zombie film in the woods and he wanted my advice. And I'm like, you've never talked to me ever, unless you need something. So I'm like, Why the hell would I help you? You know what? I mean? It's just, it's just so, it's so, like, phony. You know,

Danny Mac 9:42
I get a lot of that, but some people reach out. And I don't think it's that they necessarily, like, want something from me, but at the same time they are like, I got a great idea for a thing, all you would have to do is write it and produce it and shoot it and get the money together. I'm like, Are you insane? Like, there's absolutely and, you know, I don't have a shortage of ideas myself, you know, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do next and what I'm going to put out there. So someone with zero experience company is saying, like, I got a great idea, and you haven't talked to them in a long time. Yeah, it can be frustrating. God bless them, though. God bless them.

Dave Bullis 10:28
Yeah, it's, it's that whole idea of, well, you know what's so complicated about this? You have all the connections. And I'd sit there and I go, guys, it just doesn't work like that. And I get a lot of, see, I'm glad that you understand what I'm talking about. You know, you know, you and you get that a lot, because I've had girls too, that I went to high school with who want to be, quote, unquote, actresses. And they don't really want to be actresses, you know, they want to show up to set or wherever and take pictures of themselves so people can tell them how beautiful they are.

Danny Mac 10:54
Yeah, there's really, and, you know, there's nothing glamorous about like, the job of an actor, really, if you are an actor, there's so many moments where you're like, what the hell this is not what I thought it would be, but you have to love it. And I do. But yeah, when I really explain to people, like, what my day is like when I'm on set, either for a commercial or a TV show or something, it's, uh, yeah, it's really a kick in the pants, I think.

Dave Bullis 11:21
So, you know, when you we started in 2011 when you started making your own film, your first film, you know, and you put everything together, you know, did you have any of this culture shock that we're talking about right now where you were like, oh my god, what the hell do I get myself into?

Danny Mac 11:37
Yeah, absolutely. And pardon me, I got the date wrong. It was back in 2009 we started writing it, and we shot it in 2010 and, yeah, holy crap. I could not believe how long the days were, how long it took to get shots set up. You know, I just, you don't understand. And especially I'd never been to film school, so that was my film school, and I would have quit because it was just so intense and there was so much work, but Cooper and I put our life savings into the movie, and we completely funded it ourselves. So we kept working our regular jobs Monday to Friday, and then, because we couldn't afford to pay anyone, we could only shoot the movie Friday night, all of Saturday, all of Sunday, and then we'd go back to work, we'd only shoot weekends. And like, I was so drained I could not believe how tired I was, and I was almost so exhausted that quitting would have required more thought and effort than just staying the course. So we ended up finishing it. But yeah, just when I say that, like that first film was my film school. I really believe that, because Trial by Fire is is the only way that I've really stuck to things and learned in my life. I've found and yeah, it really prepares you for, like, what, what the career is going to be like. Of course, you improve the next time around. We made a ton of mistakes, but, you know, learning from them. And going forward, there's no better way to do it, I think

Dave Bullis 13:03
So what was the biggest obstacle you faced when making that movie? Like, was there one day or one thing that happened where you were like, I think I'm done,

Danny Mac 13:13
Hmm, I mean that I feel like every, every day, honestly, like, somehow, and this is crazy. And really, the money was our, like, least, like we were always worried about the money, because, literally, it was just his and my life savings. We both put $20,000 up to make this $40,000 feature. But there was sort of nothing to worry about, because we had the money like, we didn't have to go knock on any doors for more. So, oddly enough, the money wasn't the biggest problem, but the biggest problem, but the biggest problem was, was that we were producing a film, and we'd never done that before. We never made a short Well, we had made a short film before, but like that took that, took an afternoon, and like this was just so intense. So yeah, we we were just we were faced with obstacles every day, like we didn't like transportation, and getting everything to our certain locations was rough, and who was going to return all the gear? And, like, there was just things we didn't know that were actual things that you had to do on set. And so we had, we didn't delegate properly, so it would just be, like, day one, there's like 90 things that are undone that we need to just assign to people to start doing. And because we were the producers, and we couldn't pay anyone. We had to do all those things ourselves. So while money wasn't an issue, if you're not paying anyone, you're not going to get any extra out of anyone. You know, they were just doing it for the experience. So we took on way too much, and that was probably why, you know, I can't even pick a specific thing, but really, the umbrella of all the problems is that we just wore way too many hats, and we juggled too many things.

Dave Bullis 14:44
And you see Danny, I think that happens to a lot of filmmakers you see, because everything is a little more accessible, quote, unquote, you know, with whether there would be a camera, or maybe it be, you know, a way to storyboard, or whether it be, hey, listen, I have an idea. I mean, you know what? I mean, you kind of build up this confidence to go in there and do it. But I think when you wear so many hats, you kind of it all hits you when you're trying to do two things at once. And I can tell you, I remember I was on a I was doing one of my films, one of my student films, and I remember somebody had backed out who was supposed to be, like, my location manager slash like UPM, and everybody instead was calling me now as I'm trying to direct the scene for like, directions, questions about stuff. Hey, you know what I mean? And I'm just like, Guys, I'm trying to direct a freaking scene here, and I'm trying to talk to the cinematographer, and I'm trying to do this. And people are coming up and asked me questions. People were coming up because they the people who had the location. There was, like, other stuff going on. So people were walking in the room going, Oh, is there? Are you guys filming here? Like, oh, Jesus Christ. Shoot me. Now. What did I do to myself?

Danny Mac 15:55
I got a funny story. Our very first day on set, we actually didn't have the permits to shoot in the park that we were shooting in and I didn't know this, so someone like a park ranger came up to our director and was like, Hey, do you have permits to shoot here? And he was just petrified, and the only thing he could think to say was the name of the person he was supposed to email to get the permits that he never actually did. And let's say that person's name was Alex. So this park ranger comes up to our director our first day on set. He's like, Hey, did you get the proper permits to be here? And all he says was, Alex, and then the park ranger somehow accepted that and was like, Okay, well, have a good shoot, and left us, but we could have been like, shut down before we begun. So God bless them for that one. I have no idea how we weaseled our way out of that situation, but

Dave Bullis 16:44
It's like one of those movie jokes, you know, where the character kind of just like, blurts out an answer by accident, like their own Jeopardy, and it's like, yeah, that's exactly it. That's the answer, yeah.

Danny Mac 16:57
Meanwhile, he's just like, breathing heavily and sweating his ass off because we almost lost everything.

Dave Bullis 17:05
And, you know, and see stuff like that, you know, I have a funny story. Happened. Didn't happen on one of my sets, but it was, I actually was, was visiting a set one day, and this, this kind of, like Park Ranger type of guy walks by, and he looks over and he just sees all these film cameras and gear and everything else. And immediately I'm like, Well, this this guy, I know these guys who are running this film set, who it's film it is. I know they don't have permits and and I look at the park ranger, and he's on a bike, and he just kind of looks around and just pedaled off and never said a word. And I think I'm thinking to myself, what made him not do this, like, what made him not want to get involved? And here's, there's two things that I think of that didn't that made him not want to get involved, as I kind of took a look around. Number one was there was probably, like 300 people there and just that, because it was a concert scene. And so there was a guy in an eight foot like monster costume just kind of rampaging around. And I think both of them, he's probably like, I don't even want to get involved and whatever the hell this is,

Danny Mac 18:10
Yeah, he could probably smell like the dreams that he would have crushed also, if he just followed up on it. I think that was a big part of it, too. This park ranger was like, You know what these kids look like they've got enough trouble already, as it is. So I'm just gonna bike away from the situation.

Dave Bullis 18:27
And we're right in Philadelphia too. We usually crush dreams here in Philadelphia. So you know that guy was the

Danny Mac 18:33
That, that is the city motto, isn't it? Where dreams go to be crushed, I believe.

Dave Bullis 18:37
Oh yeah, that, that hitchbot thing. It survived Canada and everything else. And then as soon as it came here was done, that's it. So Danny, would you after you got done making love, hate, which was your first film? How did you go about releasing the film, or even just marketing the film?

Danny Mac 18:56
That was another sort of I mean, we didn't do too much marketing, but we really got lucky on that one, because we were able to sell the film to a Canadian the on demand subscript or not subscription based, but transactional Video on Demand channel called Super channel. And the only thing that we had heard about it was that a guy that we knew apparently made a short film, and he sold it to them, and they gave him, like, $14,000 and we never confirmed this. We never looked into it. We didn't even talk to the guy. We're like, Oh, if he can do that, we can do it. So we proceeded to make this film. And then their head offices happened to be in Edmonton, where we shot love hate. And we literally just drove there one day. We google maps where their offices were. Cooper and myself just drove there in my old Honda accord with a Blu ray of our film. And we're like, hey, who can we talk to about buying our movie? They were like, I guess the acquisitions head is here. So we met with her, and she passed the film off to her team. And we got a call like a few weeks later, saying that they would, they would buy the movie off of us. And we ended up breaking even on our first project, just from that and a couple of theatrical screenings that we held ourselves.

Dave Bullis 20:20
I mean, that is a Hail Mary story, man, you know, you just, you threw it up there, But, see, but stories like that are a success. You know, that's what people aim for. You know, it's to do stuff like that. Hey, we sold our first movie, you know. Or we, you know, we did this, or we did that, you know, it's, it's funny. A guy I know actually used to work with Oren patelli, who did paranormal activity. And one day, I don't know if you ever seen the first or paranormal activity, but one day Oren came in and he said, guys, I just want to say it's been nice working with you. I actually just probably two weeks in. And they said, Oh, well, you know, what? Do you have another job? And he said, Well, actually, I just sold a movie to Steven Spielberg and and they were like, Yeah, right. Like, come on, what are you really doing? He goes, No. He goes, No. Like, I'm gonna be on all these web series, or not, web series, like, like, web interviews and stuff like that. And he goes, and I want to be on like, this channel. He was just, you know, that's it. Well, like, little by little, they started, like, all these interviews started popping up. And they were like, oh my god, this is amazing. But, I mean, it's stuff like that, you know, stories like that that, you know, it sort of keeps that indie film, indie film dream alive, you know, where you're able to actually, you know, do these things actually say, hey, look, we made our money back, or we made least some money, and now we can take that money and make another film,

Danny Mac 21:38
Exactly. And, yeah, when you say it was a Hail Mary, it absolutely was, because we were, you know, we had, we were just delusional. We thought that the movie was going to explode and we'd make so much money that our next film could be, like, triple the budget and and that it would be smooth sailing. And then, you know, we were able to sell it. And so we got national broadcast, and we, we made, like, a lot of money off of just three theatrical screenings that we did, and so we made our money back, plus maybe, like, I don't know, like, three grand each, and this was after like, three years work. So like, Whoopty do right? We were, like, upset. We were like, Man, I can't believe we only broke even. And other filmmakers like, we didn't realize how tough it was to, you know, get a broadcast deal and make your money back within like, six months of releasing your film and all these other filmmakers, like, are you insane that you're complaining right now? Like, you sold your first film and you made all your money back? Like, what is your problem? And now is I just, like, been in the industry so much longer. I was like, What a shitty little brat I was being complaining that we didn't, like, bring in heaps of cash from our little independent film. And, yeah, I'm just, you know, we did everything wrong, but it turned out all right for us in the end. So I'm really proud of our little effort that we put in back then.

Dave Bullis 22:50
And I'm also glad that you got my football reference too, because I, I mean, I know you're in Canada, and I'm like, wait a minute it. Will he understand the idea? Yeah, I'm glad you got that because you really

Danny Mac 23:01
Orange football here, there's nine downs before ball changes hands.

Dave Bullis 23:07
Well, I've actually been to Canada, and I saw a Toronto Argonauts game one time.

Danny Mac 23:12
Oh, the Argos. Yeah, that's right.

Dave Bullis 23:16
So, yeah. So it was just funny, though, because I was, you know, the NFL is not really popular outside of, outside of the USA, and I'm just like, Man, I always, I always got to watch my my slang. And even when I'm talking to other filmmakers from America, I got to watch my Philly slang. They don't say something weird, and they're like, Oh yeah, Dave, you know,

Danny Mac 23:35
I'm all over it. I got you

Dave Bullis 23:37
Wait we do. Just to go back to about love, hate. I mean, again, you know, selling your first film, that's huge. And I mean, now, I mean, because you sold that in like, 2010 2011 I mean, what do you think about the marketplace now, you know, even tying in with your new movie Hill kick about. I mean, what do you think the market is like now, do you think it's more crowded? Because I've had, I've heard a lot of different opinions and perspectives of this. Some people say, yeah, it's more crowded, but be but there's more avenues, and then the other, the other sort of option is, or the other perspective is, the good movies, no matter what, are always just going to rise in the top.

Danny Mac 24:15
I mean, I hope that that's the case, because, you know, then that means that people will see good films, and that will reward and that will, you know, teach people to make good projects. I don't know. I think that it's really exciting the time that we're in right now, especially with all the methods of self distribution available, that is really something that gets me excited about continuing down this path as an independent filmmaker and beyond. And while I do think there is a ton of just product out there, like there's so many shows and films, I do believe that the good ones rise to the top, and I think that you have to hold on to that, because I don't know what's what's the alternative thought on that that, you know, like a bad movie with great marketing. Will be the only thing that really matters one day. And you know, while that may be the case, I'm sure we've all heard a million things about a movie we don't care about in the independent scene, you have so much more leeway, I believe, and people aren't as tough on films. And you know, while you do have to have a thick skin, and everyone is going to have critics, it's kind of a nice community. You know, people are always willing to help each other and talk about their projects, and there's so many case studies. I think that's the coolest thing about it. People say, yeah, there's so many projects out there right now. It's such a cluttered marketplace. But if you're trying to produce an independent film, you can look at all of those things, and you can just case study them about what they did right and what they did wrong. And I'm sure everyone has, you know, I can't even tell you how many Kickstarter film projects that I've seen that just never got to production, that never saw the light of day, and that's useful information. And then all the ones that did make it, that's useful information. So, yes, the marketplace is cluttered, but I think for indie filmmakers, that's a good thing, because you can sit back and you can plot your course more effectively than you ever could before, and even just in 2011 when we sold that film, we like if that Head of Acquisitions wasn't based in our hometown, we never would have been able to drive there and use our just in person charm. If we did have it, then we certainly don't have much of it anymore, but I don't know if we could pull something like that off again. But like, there were just so many things that that added up, and if and if one of them fell through, we wouldn't have had any idea what to do, because we sold directly to the broadcaster. We did not get a distribution deal, nor did we even seek one out, because we were able to go direct to the broadcaster. So now, if we were in the same circumstance now, which I kind of am, with this film, at least, you wouldn't be completely screwed if, like, the one thing you know to get your film out there doesn't work. So it's exciting. There is a lot of noise, but you can learn from the noise. And that's that's good too, yeah.

Dave Bullis 27:00
And that's an excellent point, Danny. And you raise another excellent point too, and that is a lot of Kickstarters that don't actually see production and that happens. I mean, the most notorious of that is the video game industry, just because of all the things that happen in that industry. But you know, I've seen film projects that have crowdfunded and gone nowhere. I mean, some are some even famously, have been crowdfunded. And, you know, there's some pretty big people that have joined the crowdfunding spectrum. I won't name names, but they, they've taken some money and not and not produced anything. You know, I to me, I'm sorry, Danny,

Danny Mac 27:38
Oh, I just said, yikes. Yeah, that's, that's a bad, yeah, you don't like to hear that,

Dave Bullis 27:43
Yeah. I mean, it's just, I always wonder, I always wanted to bring one of them on this show. And just be like, you know, what the hell happened? Yeah, just be like, what did you really not have a plan? Did you guys just, like, throw this up and somebody donated like, 50 grand, you know, I Speaking of which. I had a friend of mine who started crowdfunding campaign in like, 2012 he had a mysterious benefactor, dead serious, give him $10,000 out of nowhere, just out of nowhere. And, I mean, he was like, he couldn't figure out who it was. Nobody would Yeah, it was just it was out of nowhere. And he actually was trying to figure out who the hell that was. And it just he never figured it out. And I was like, well, you guess you, you know, you have to make your movie now. And he kind of, like, he almost became paralyzed by trying to figure out who this was. Like,

Danny Mac 28:34
There's your movie.

Dave Bullis 28:37
He was, like, more adamant about He's like, he's like, all right, I got to figure out who has the resources to give me $10,000 and not miss it. And I'm just like, make your movie. Who the hell cares about?

Danny Mac 28:47
Like, that's a sweet ass problem to have, my friend.

Dave Bullis 28:52
No, that's, I mean, how would that even sound if you said that? Oh, man, I got this bad problem. Oh, Danny, what's what's the problem? Oh, some random dude gave me 10 grand to make a film.

Danny Mac 29:03
Yeah, it's keeping me up at night. I just can't figure out who's generous and loves me. It's just driving me insane. So we did crowdfunding for heel kick I should probably add, and I didn't want to do it. And crowdfunding is something that some like I believe in, and I appreciate it, but it's just something that I personally don't want to do, and I never wanted to do it. The only reason I did a GoFundMe campaign was because I was just screwed. But the advantage that I had was that my film was already shot, and I was able to release a trailer for it. So my whole GoFundMe approach was, hey, my movie's done. So there's a 100% chance that, if you donate to this, that it's not going to be lost in the abyss of, you know, indie filmmakers asking for money. And I released a trailer, and everyone could see that it was complete and that it was on its way. And I just said, Hey, we need to pay like you guys want to see it right, like we need to pay. For, you know, insurance. We need to pay for these theatrical screenings, because we're just four walling it, and if you guys give us a little bit of money, the film can be out right away. And if not, I just don't really know what to do. So we were able. We did an aggressive three week campaign, and we raised $12,000 and that finished off all the funds that we needed. And we were so proud of our community and our fans for helping us with that, but that people sort of were like, wow, I can't believe you pulled that off in just a few weeks. And I was, you know, but like I said, I was a little confused at first, too. I didn't really think it would go that well, but it's because we had the film in the can already, and people are getting really weary of Kickstarters and gofundmes and projects like this, because, you know, like we have just discussed, so many of them never see the light of day, and it's like, Why do I have to be supportive of something that I know isn't going to happen? To happen? And, you know? So I think people, when they're pursuing these crowdfunding avenues, they just, they really need to have their shit together, because it's going to sour it for other filmmakers. You know, imagine, like, knowing that you could produce something if you raised 20 grand. But people are just like, Oh yeah, right, buddy. Like, just like the other three I donated to, that's ruining it for everyone. So, you know, it's a tool, but it's too accessible. You know, it's just like a phone with a camera. Everyone can shoot a movie. That's why you got a lot of crappy movies out there. And it's like anyone can start a Kickstarter campaign for their film. That's why there's so many graveyards full of dead films that never saw the light of day.

Dave Bullis 31:43
Yeah, absolutely Danny. And you know, I actually knew a person who would go around from project to project, actually just doing crowdfunding campaigns. And like, her timeline was just nothing but pitching crowdfunding campaigns to people. And people are, like, tuning her out, like, all you do is promote, promote, promote, and like, half the time, you never even hear about the movie ever after she's done promoting it. So people just started tuning her out, left and right. And it's just like, it's that fine sort of ebbing and flowing. It's, it's kind of, you know, like in marketing, you can't just keep marketing to people because they start tuning out, you know, yeah, and that's what she was doing, and that's why I think, you know, a lot of times when I had a friend of mine who was on Twitter, and he said he followed a bunch of filmmakers, and he said, literally, half of my timeline is people crowdfunding projects, and he and he goes just to the point where it's like, almost unusable. And I said, you know, it's just the the industry and how it is sometimes, personally, you know, there's different. I mean, obviously there's, there's a lot of different ways of crowdfund. But personally, you know, I mean, I was guilty that in 2010 when I was crowdfunding as well. And I know it does get kind of, I don't want to say the word murky, but I might be, but, you know, to me, like, I like you were just saying, Danny, it does. Some people just don't want to ask people for money, or, you know, because it looks like online panhandling or something like that. You know what I mean? And I've had, I've had people, conversations with with with producers, or conversations with actors and stuff. And I said, you know, you guys have to put up the crowdfunding campaign too, or or whatever. And people were out and out and out refuse because of that. They would say, Oh, this is just online panhandling or whatever else. And I'm like, This is how you get indie films made. You know, it's funded by, you'd rather be funded by a crowd and funded by some producer who's going to tell you how to set up every single shot and How To Have and Have final edit. You know what I mean?

Danny Mac 33:31
Oh, it's so true. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it'll get better or worse, but, you know, it now has never been a more important time to have it together as a filmmaker and have a plan that you are able to execute, and a worst case scenario that involves your film still getting made at the end of the day.

Dave Bullis 33:49
So speaking of films getting made at the end of the day, you made heel kick, which is about two backyard wrestlers. And I mean, honestly, before we get into it, could you actually just give us a brief synopsis about the film,

Danny Mac 34:01
Sure. Yeah, so heel kick is about two backyard wrestlers that decide to finally go pro after 10 years of procrastinating and saying that this is what they're destined to do in their life. The only problem is, is that they are terrible. They lack all athletic skill required to do such a thing, and they don't really have any intelligence or the drive you would need to go after such a grand dream. So it's a mockumentary, it's a comedy, and it follows Reggie and Maurice, two best friends, is they finally go to professional wrestling training at an academy called ECCW, which is a real wrestling Academy. And yeah, that's that's pretty much the black and white of it.

Dave Bullis 34:41
So, you know, when you actually sat down to actually start writing this thing, you know, what was the impetus for the the idea

Danny Mac 34:47
It came from a few different places. One, I was a huge wrestling fan between the ages of, like, eight and 13, and then I grew out of it, but I still stayed interested in the behind the scenes world of it. Yeah, and I like the business side of it, it was really interesting to me. So I would read wrestlers autobiographies, even though I wasn't absorbing like the product anymore, but so I always had a great respect for it. And then all of a sudden I, you know, I had all this knowledge about it. And they say, right? We know. And so that was one of the things that got me going. But another was that my older cousin, he also loved professional wrestling, but wanted to do it for a living. And he, you know, he's a really good looking dude, really well spoken. He's like, just pure muscle six foot three, and he went to train at the Lance Storm Academy in Calgary, Alberta, a prolific wrestling town, and that's a one of the places that really shipped guys off to the to the WWE, or the Fed, as they refer to it, if they're any good. And so my cousin went there, and he quit after just like a week. And I was like, Man, I you know, I couldn't believe it. This was like, what he'd been talking about his whole life. And it was so interesting to hear him tell me how it was different than he thought it would be and but even more that stuck with me is when he told me about some of the other kids in the class who just were delusional about their, you know, like, about their basically, their odds of making it in the business. Because you can just tell when people don't have that drive, or don't have what it takes to do something, and not like he was putting any anyone down. There was a lot of great talent in the class as well, but I just couldn't get that out of my mind. The idea of two people who are attempting something that, you know, have no idea how tough it's actually going to be. And so that is sort of where the idea for heel kick came.

Dave Bullis 36:37
You know, I like that, by the way. The experience of hearing what he went, how he went there, and, you know, what he found out. Because I think that's a lot of times people have an idea of what something's going to be, and then when they finally get that, you know, that expectation and when then reality finally hits, they're like, this isn't what I really wanted, you know, I didn't really want to, you know, I thought training was gonna be a little different, or I thought this experience would be a little better or, you know, and you meet people too, who have that expert, who have that unreal expectations of what this is going to give to them, or they're, you know what I mean, and, and you find that in film too, where, you know, somebody thinks they're gonna make a film, you know, in the living room with an iPhone and win Sundance. You know what I mean, it's like, how many times have you heard that? You know? So it's, but it was, it's stuff like that. I mean, that's why I really am glad you. Yeah, we got into telling this story because it adds to the to the movie itself. Because, actually, I used to do backyard wrestling back here in Philadelphia, and I so the movie kind of speaks to me. Now, honestly, Danny, I haven't seen the movie yet, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a note to actually make sure I check this movie out, because obviously it fits right in my wheelhouse. But, but like you, I fell out of love with wrestling a long while ago, and, but again, it's still fun to, you know, see movies like this about, you know, backyard wrestling or or, you know, movies like The Wrestler and stuff like that. You know, it's kind of cool to see that, you know, this stuff that we used to be into, and, you know, as long as it's a good story with it, and that, you know, it's not all about that, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's all good,

Danny Mac 38:05
Absolutely, yeah, this is kind of the wrestling movie that I wished was around when I was really, really into wrestling. And it's been cool to screen the film around North America and have, like, real hardcore wrestling fans tell me that as well. It means a lot. And wrestling is such a an amazing subculture, and you can go deep down the rabbit hole of learning about it and exploring what that world is like, and it was just so fun to get back into it, not to mention the fact that I literally had to train because I play one of the backyard wrestlers in the movies. So

Dave Bullis 38:37
So did you like train by like, getting hit with, like, light tubes and going through tables days.

Danny Mac 38:44
Well, we actually, I mean, the film starts with these guys are more like fans than anything. You know, they're just classic procrastinators that they pretty much just goof off all day. And then they're one of the the guy who plays my brother, Matthew Graham. He he challenges us. He says, I'll pay for your wrestling school, but you have to go to class every day, and you have to improve and and if you, if you can't do it, if you can't show that you're you got what it takes, then you've got to, you know, give up on this wrestling dream forever and just get a real job and and move on with your life. So that's when they start going to wrestling school. And so I wanted to show real progression, so I placed myself and Chris Wilcox, who plays Maurice, the other backyard wrestler. I placed us in an actual training program with a real wrestling Academy called ECCW based in Vancouver, and they operate all over the Pacific Northwest, and some really talent comes out of there. I don't know if you know Kyle O'Reilly, who's just joined up in NXT the other day, and he's big on the indie scene. And, you know, just tons of great talent go through there, and still go through there. But we were actually training for six months to prepare for what we do in the film. So, yeah, we didn't tell anyone that we were doing it for a movie. Only very few people knew, because we didn't want to get treated any differently. So eventually they found out you do form, you know, serious bonds with these with the people in class and the people that are training you after a few months, which you should, when you're like, dropping each other on your spine 40 times a day, you should probably get close to those people and make sure they're on your good side. But, yeah, so, so I actually had to train to become a professional wrestler for it. And it was, you know, talk about things being different than you thought they would be, oh, man,

Dave Bullis 40:44
So with your experience on love and hate, what was some of the things that you took in a heel kick like? Was it about, you know, not wearing too many hats? You know, was it maybe doing things a little bit differently in terms of, like, planning or even marketing?

Danny Mac 40:59
Marketing, definitely, because the whole world of film marketing changed from 2010 to now. So that was just something that I never had to worry about before, but I tried to educate myself on that as best as possible. And our CO producer on the film is Greg Miller, and he's a really big name in the entertainment world, and he's a YouTube star and really big in the video game world, and he just has a huge love for professional wrestling. And he and I became friends a few years ago, and so he's been spreading the word about the film as as the CO producer, getting it out there. So he's been, you know, he's sort of our human megaphone. I like to refer to him that way, and he's really helped us get butts in the seats at these screenings and have people find out about the film in regards to wearing a lot of hats, I still did that. I was still the writer, the lead, the co director and the producer on this project, and I was in the editing room for every frame of the film. And not to mention the fact that I was, you know, working out and training at a professional wrestling Academy for six months as well. But think the difference was just getting a little bit more money together so you can pay people enough that make that your film is their main priority. Because that was the biggest takeaway from love hate, was that when everyone's got their other job, and when you can't afford to pay anyone, you know, everyone's still committed, and they want and they want to help you out, but when it's their job, it's a whole it's a different story, right? Like everyone's going to be there, and nothing can take them away from that place. And you also aren't working on people's free time. Their free time is when they're off of your set. And you know, it seems simple, but that was really the biggest takeaway. If someone was going to be there more than a couple of days for the shoot, it was they were going to get paid for it, and it was going to be their job. And so with that, said, I could wear all those hats. And you know, there's something to be said for stepping back and and sharing the responsibility. But, and I certainly did that, even though it sounds like I wore all these hats. But you know, if you have a vision for something, you might as well wear as many hats as you possibly. Can, because, you know, you don't want to delegate something off to somebody who's not as passionate about the project as you are, because it's going to lose its voice. So people are like, man, you did a lot in this movie. And I was like, Yeah, well, you know, I had a very certain way that I wanted to say things, so it was just kind of a no brainer for me, really,

Dave Bullis 43:20
And see. So I want to ask is, how did you go about getting George as a producer, and also, like, when you talk about, you know, having money to pay people, did you actually, you know, go out and put together, like, a pitch packet to find different people and and sort of say, like, you know, this is what we did with love hate, and, you know, this is what we could do with this movie if we had just a little bit more money?

Danny Mac 43:40
Exactly! Yeah, basically, I put together a little, a little plan, and I sent it to pretty much everyone I knew who I figured could spare, like, a couple $1,000 and they wouldn't, you know, if they never made their money back, they wouldn't hate me, or they wouldn't have to sell their home, or something like that. So I put together a package. I told everyone, you know, what I did with love, hate, with extremely little resources and and how I could capitalize on another film today with much greater success. And we never, you know, we never even sold DVDs of our first film. We didn't do anything else with it after that, because it just became so much work we wanted to move on to other projects. So it was pretty easy to convince people to come on board with this one, especially after they read the script and they thought it was really funny and really touching, and they liked it, and that was pretty much it for that. And then in regards to getting Greg Miller on board, we Cooper and I threw a charity Mario Kart tournament in at this pub in Vancouver, where we live, and we flew celebrities from the gaming world out. So we had cause players come out. We had game developers, and we got in touch with Greg Miller, who was just leaving his job at IGN at the time, I think he was the senior PlayStation editor, and we had him come out, and he we formed a friendship. Air, and we just stayed in touch ever since. And then the closer we got, the more I realized how heel kick was something that would be like right up his alley. And I asked if he wanted to come on as a co producer and help spread the word about the film. And he said yes, and so that's how we've been getting the word out ever since.

Dave Bullis 45:17
Now I see that that's absolutely fantastic, by the way. Actually, called him George instead of Greg. I don't know why. I don't know what they got George from. Sorry about that, but, but see that, that that stuff like that. You see, I always have a saying, you know, your net worth is your network and being able just to go up to people. And you know, it's kind of like what Sam Raimi did, honestly, Danny with with the first Evil Dead he went to different people, and they each kicked in a little bit of money. And that's how he made the film, you know, rather than having one investor who gives it's kind of like that idea, you know, do you want one investor to give you a million dollars, or do you want a million investors to give you $1 Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like, you know, there's pros and cons to each and obviously, you know, I and honestly, with doing this podcast, I've heard both and everything in between, but using that, you know, and using your network and then able to get somebody like Greg and as forming a relationship with Him. And, you know, just for everyone listening to Danny, let me, I just want to pick your brain about this really quickly, for somebody who was thinking about maybe pitching a YouTube star or pitching somebody else? What are some of the tips you have for them be? I mean, because we've all seen that mistake where it's like, they meet somebody that they want to work with, and the first thing they do is, like, you have to help me. Please. God. Do you have any like, tips or anything on like, networking or even pitching that you know you could just give to the listeners,

Danny Mac 46:42
I would say. And I think the people who are the best at this would tell you the same thing, and it's that don't pester people right out of the gate. You need to form, honest to God, relationships and bonds with people, and have things that you that you both like and share interest in. And then if something is a good fit, then I think you should have approached them otherwise, you know, just don't go, don't go ringing every doorbell that you can find asking for favors, like Greg and I, you know, like we flew him down to Vancouver for that thing, and that was just a party, and we raised like, $7,000 for the for the BC Children's Hospital. It was just a good time. And we stayed in touch after that. And, you know, I just presented him the movie, and he would keep telling me, like, anything you need for help on this thing, like, let me know. And you know, so it wasn't so much me asking him as him offering. And then I said, You know what, let's make it official. Let's make you a part of the team. So I think, just like, look for the signs. Like, some people will be interested in jumping on projects with you and others won't but in regards to, like, a YouTube celebrity, specifically, that is a thing that we're seeing a lot more of in the indie film world. I'm not sure if you've noticed it, but when I was at the AFM in Santa Monica two years ago, a lot of people's pitches like, weren't with movie stars anymore. It was with YouTube stars in the roles, and that they were coming on as producers and stuff like that. And I was like, wow, I just talked to like six filmmakers and and I didn't know half the names they were talking about, because they're not actors, they're they're online celebrities. And I think that's a trend that's going to be going up. So I would just say for that, remember, at the end of the day, your film has to be well acted. And it's seems like funny to say that, but, you know, a lot of people forget that. They just try and cram as many recognizable names into a project as possible. But like, just think of all the amazing talent that have been in a bad movie before. Like, you're not going to watch a bad movie with your favorite actor in it. And you know, I'm not saying that they would be giving a bad performance, but just things don't always come together, and that performance has to be there on screen. So I really like the idea of Greg coming on as a co producer, because what these people do best is build communities and and build awareness about things that they think are cool and and so I think that the capacity in which Greg has come on is a great way to involve some of these YouTube celebrities, because they're interested in production and film and stuff like that. You don't necessarily have to make them the star of your movie if that's something that you're not comfortable doing. And I'm not saying that internet celebrities aren't great performers. A lot of them are, but there's more than one way to include someone in your film to benefit, to benefit its longevity.

Dave Bullis 49:28
Yeah, you know, actually, we had Jason Brubaker on the podcast, and he actually was at the forefront of doing this. What he did was he got a bunch of YouTuber stars together, and he made Camp Dakota for Netflix, and they, it was a full YouTube stars, well, I have friends who were, you know, you know, they're probably, like, 10, 15, 20 years older than I am, and they all have kids and stuff like that. And the kids were like, oh my god, Camp Dakota's coming out. Like, what the hell is Camp Dakota? Who the hell are these people? Why is everyone caring about this movie? And it's like, because it's full of YouTube stars and, and that's they just packed it full of them, and it was like number one on Netflix when it came out. But I agree with you completely. By the way, you have to make sure that they can because, you know, if you do, like, a, maybe a five or 10 second video, hey, you know, that's, that's really cool. But, you know, imagine stretching that out to an hour and a half. You know, is that sustainable? Is this person sustainable? Because, you know, like, like we were just saying at the beginning of this interview, if they're not in, you know, if they're not around film, or know how this all works, I mean, you end up saying to them, Hey, listen, you used to spend an hour a day making a video that got a million hits. Well, now you're going to spend 16 hours on set, and we're going to be lucky to break even with this film.

Danny Mac 50:54
Yeah, it's just a completely different world. You're right, yeah. And Brubaker, Jason Brubaker is such a smart guy, too, and you see a lot of other people try to capitalize on that idea, and it doesn't always work out, but I do think that's going to be a serious trend in the film industry, and that's not going away anytime soon. So if you're going to, if that's what you're going to do, if you're going to include people from another industry that isn't the film industry, and bring them in to your film project, just make sure that you're doing it in the in the best way possible to service the film.

Dave Bullis 51:26
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and we've both seen movies that sort of fall into that whole like celebrity sort of trap. I mean, for instance, I had a friend of mine. He casted this girl specifically because of her social media following. And here's the kicker, she refused to promote the movie to her social media following. So it's yeah and, and it was like, and finally, begrudgingly, she finally did. And it got nothing like they had no analytics from it, because nobody really followed her to hear about some movie she was going to be in. They wanted to see photos of her, you know, in like, a bikini and stuff like that. She wasn't a YouTube star. I should have, I should have predicated everything with that. But she was like, you know, like a model and the heat area, yeah. And he was like, Oh, my God, this, if we get her in there, this is going to be awesome. And, you know, it just all filtered away. It just, it didn't really do much of anything. And people with lower numbers had much more engaged fans were like, We want to see this person as an actor, you know, we want to see this person in an actual film. And, you know, I said, you know, it does make sense, though, if you think about it, you know, if you follow, if some guy follows a model online, does he? Does he necessarily, would he pay to see her in a movie? And when he can get a photo of her for free, you know,

Danny Mac 52:41
Yeah, it doesn't translate. It really doesn't. And, yeah, hopefully people will figure out the best way to do it. I really love my relationship with Greg. Like, well, we are friends as well, but I think this is a cool project, and the way that and the way that he's helping spread the word about it is great. And, you know, his community is into this kind of stuff. Like, there's a lot of pro wrestling fans that follow him and the kind of funny group. So it was just a good fit, yeah? So if it wasn't, he wouldn't be involved. But, you know, who knows?

Dave Bullis 53:08
Yeah, and you know, just to going back to backyard wrestling and your movie, he'll kick you know, it is there is that wrestling industry. They, the fans are very loyal, especially the, you know that there's the hardcore fans who go to the indie shows every weekend, you know, just by again, I haven't seen the movie yet, you know. And I'll be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet. So I don't want to be one of those guys, Danny, who tries to, like, you know, fake it through. Like, you ever see those interviews where the guy clearly hasn't seen the movie? So questions like, Well, how did you do that thing? And it's like, it's like, but, but I can, you know, I can imagine this is a movie for them, because this, again, is a movie I would have wanted to see, in a way, because, you know, again, I used to be big into wrestling and do backyard wrestling stuff and do all that crazy nonsense that you look back on now, like, oh, my god, how am I not dead? But, you know, it's just that idea of two of going to these independent shows. And that's what I imagine. The two guys, the two leads are, are two guys, you know, aiming to, you know, get to the biggest, you know, the league in the land. But they have to, you know, train at the local, you know, wrestling school. They have to, you know, go into the and wrestle, and some of these indie promotions that. And again, it's probably not what they think it's going to be, you know, and because it's just, like, real life, you know,

Danny Mac 54:22
Very true. Yeah, I wanted to make a really realistic, like, you know, I don't want to make a movie where two guys decide to be wrestlers, and then, boom, they're fighting like Stone Cold Steve Austin and the Roth and the final scene, or whatever. I want to, you know, what happens when two guys want to be pro wrestlers? Well, first you research local wrestling academies, and then you see if they'll take you on, and then you pay your gym fees. And then if you're good enough, you get put into the show those and then you can start traveling around and doing it with other promotions, you know, like, I just wanted to really show off what it's actually like. And, you know, and people have told us, and a lot of people in the indie wrestling scene as well have told us that it's, it's really. True to form, but it's also, you know, it's got to be funny too. So there's, there's a few liberties, but really not too much at all. And I would leave out the training sections from the script until I trained more myself in real life, because I wanted my actual training to be reflected in in the film. So I was like, I wonder how this works when you're teaching someone how to do this, and then when you know, when the when the wrestlers would teach me how to do that, then I would put it into the movie.

Dave Bullis 55:25
And that's really cool. And I imagine too, when you were talking about to the actors that you know, you probably were like, Hey guys, you know, you'll probably have, you'll have to go through there, take a few bumps, and they have to be cool with it, you know what I mean, like, so it goes into sort of the whole idea of paying your dues for your craft, if you know what

Danny Mac 55:41
I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, the only people that really took bumps were besides the actual professional wrestlers that are in the film are myself and Chris will Cox, who plays the other wrestler, and I was, I don't even think I could have cast this movie if I had the money to because I don't know who would have done this. Like, when you see the film, you'll see there's a few moments in it, you're like, oh my god, that was pretty harsh. And the reason that you know it's it's just extra intense for an audience watching it is because you're comfortable watching a movie for the first act, and you're in your into the performers, and then all of a sudden they're doing things that you would see a stunt man do, and that was sort of where a production value would be, I figured, is that we would be doing all these things ourselves, and we shot the film for only $40,000 Canadian, which is another thing that I wanted to bring up, because when people ask me, like, How'd you get all the money together to shoot heel kick? And I was like, Well, we, you know, it's easy to get the money together when you're not asking for half a million dollars or $3 million dollars, or if you're, if you're not making, like, a big epic sci fi film, you know, like, I don't want to write something that I know I could never afford to get made. But anyway, back to my point, yeah, as a director, you probably shouldn't ask any actor to do anything you're not willing to do yourself. So I made sure to do all the worst things myself and share them, of course, with my co star credit.

Dave Bullis 57:04
And, you know, that's a good point too, because, you know, people write things that really, you know, sometimes they think they can shoot like a sci fi movie, 100 page sci fi movie, for like $10,000 and it's just like, or there was a person I knew who was trying to shoot a time traveling period piece for like, five grand. And I said you're gonna spend $5,000 in clothes alone, unless, of course, yeah, unless, of course, you travel back in time and you shoot it in a state park, and you also have one character dressed up in, like, in historical times, you know, regalia. And then it's even pushing it like, so it has to be like a very quick, quickly done and shot very, very carefully. So, because, if you, you know, if you have something in the background, like a skyscraper, or, you know, it's supposed to be a war going on, there's no, you know, there's no army or something, it looks it immediately. Just destroys the whole idea what you're trying to do,

Danny Mac 58:01
Yeah, you got to be careful about what you're planning on shooting, yeah.

Dave Bullis 58:05
So, yeah, it just, that's why, again, you know, we always have to have, you know, always aim high. But then always, you know, realize what you have access to, you know, make those lists of resources and stuff like that, you know. And so Danny, I wanted to ask you, where can people check out, he'll kick movie.

Danny Mac 58:22
So currently it's just, we're four walling a little theatrical tour around North America. So upcoming screenings are going to be there's going to be one in Saskatoon, there's going to be one in Portland, and most likely one in Seattle. And those are going to be over the next six or seven weeks. And then we are finally going to call it a day with our theatrical tour, and we're going to get the film out there onto iTunes. We're going to self distribute it, so we're using distributor, speaking of Jason Brubaker, so that is going to be what we're rolling out in the next little while here in the meantime, yeah, people can follow it at heel kick movie on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook,

Dave Bullis 59:02
Yeah, and very cool that you're touring with it. And yeah, Jason Brubaker, awesome guy. I'm so glad that you're using distributor. I'm telling you. I always tell people, if you really are confused about how to distribute your movie, go talk to Jason. Like Jason's so up, like, just straightforward with it too. He goes, Look, maybe you can just put a Buy Now button on a website. You know what I mean? And it's just, he's not he, even though he does work for the stripper, he's not always like, Oh, you got to go to the stripper or else. Blah, blah. He is, like, one of the straightest and most honest guys, and he's so knowledgeable, like you said, and he's a good guy to know,

Danny Mac 59:36
Yeah, he's a straight shooter, and he's a really good guy. I would recommend indie filmmakers think about using that platform, or other ones like it early, like while you're writing, because it's just going to make things so much easier if you know where what your film should wind up and what avenues you're going to take it down before you even start shooting.

Dave Bullis 1:00:07
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, Danny, we've been talking for about, I guess maybe about 55 minutes now, you know, is there anything in closing that you have any part, like Final thoughts, or anything you want to say, that we get a chance to or, or even just anything you want to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation? Period at the end of this whole conversation.

Danny Mac 1:00:24
Um, yeah. I mean, check out the trailer. If it seems like a movie that interests you. Follow us along. We're really active on social media, and we we always let people know where the film is going to be and when it's going to be out. And we'd love for people to watch it really do not have to know anything about professional wrestling at all to enjoy the film, that is. And that's me quoting hundreds of people who have seen it, who have no interest in professional wrestling, and that was just as important to us as making a film that hardcore wrestling fans would love as well. So we think we've struck the balance. Yeah, and you'll definitely get some last out of it. So I really hope people can check it out, and hopefully it is out there in the big, wide world of the internet's, um, early fall, maybe like early October.

Dave Bullis 1:01:11
And I'm gonna make sure to check out the movie when it comes out, Danny in October, because I do want to check this out again because it's right up my alleyway. And Danny, we'll find you out online.

Danny Mac 1:01:22
Online, they can find me at the_dannymac, pretty much everywhere.

Dave Bullis 1:01:26
Danny Mac, I want to say thank you so much for coming on and chat and he'll kick movie and all this good stuff, and everyone, everything that Danny and I talked about will be in the show notes at Dave bullis.com Danny, I wish you the best luck with heel kick movie, and I look forward to see we got coming out next, after, after, after. This is all said and done, all the dust settles, and you know, I want to see what you come out with next.

Danny Mac 1:01:49
Thanks very much. I'm end of the show, and I think it's a great tool for filmmakers to listen to. So I appreciate being on.

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BPS 450: From Video Games to the Big Screen: The Filmmaking Journey of Nicole Jones-Dion

December 18, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The lights of Los Angeles flicker differently when you’re chasing stories instead of stars. On today’s episode, we welcome Nicole Jones-Dion, a screenwriter, director, and producer whose journey took her from the world of video games and comics into the unpredictable realm of filmmaking. Her work spans from co-writing Tekken 2 to crafting the supernatural thriller They Found Hell for the SyFy Channel, to directing her first feature film, Stasis.

Nicole’s creative path began in the interactive worlds of games and graphic novels, where storytelling was often bold, visual, and larger than life. That same sensibility carried over into her screenplays, which naturally gravitated toward sci-fi, horror, and action. With a love for genre storytelling, she found herself writing for projects that demanded both imagination and grit — Dracula epics, video game adaptations, and stories designed to thrill audiences while tapping into familiar myths.

What makes Nicole’s story remarkable is not only her resilience but her ability to adapt. Before breaking into films like Dracula: The Dark Prince, she had already written over fifteen spec scripts, proving that persistence is as essential as talent. Many of her earliest opportunities weren’t born from original pitches, but from being brought in to rework or refine existing scripts — a reality she stresses is the bulk of Hollywood writing. “If you’re writing for someone else, your job is to give them the best possible version of their idea,” she explained.

She also experimented with crowdfunding to bring her short film Debris to life. Originally seeking just $5,000, she raised nearly $20,000 — 330% over her goal. The film, centered on a cursed samurai sword that washes ashore after the Fukushima tsunami, struck a chord with audiences and festival juries alike. For Nicole, the campaign revealed the power of a strong concept: if the hook is intriguing, audiences will rally to see it made.

Her passion for character-driven storytelling shines in her approach to screenwriting. Nicole Jones Dion works from detailed outlines and insists on strong titles and character names before diving into pages. She draws from methods like Save the Cat and the mini-movie structure, blending them into her own system. For her, clarity in the outline stage prevents wasted effort later. She builds stories where protagonists and antagonists clash as equals, each the hero of their own narrative. “The antagonist is the engine of the whole story,” she noted, underscoring how much weight villains carry in shaping drama.

Nicole also cautions against soapbox storytelling, advocating instead for themes that pose questions rather than dictate answers. Whether tackling sci-fi adventures or occult horror, she wants stories to leave room for audiences to think and engage with the material. Her love for speculative fiction — tales that echo the spirit of The Twilight Zone — continues to guide her work, from her award-winning samurai scripts to the YA sci-fi of Stasis.

Through all of it, Nicole embodies the philosophy of persistence. She writes daily, often at night, and embraces the idea that growth never stops. Even after multiple films, she continues to study, refine her craft, and chase new challenges. From feature films to shorts, from crowdfunding campaigns to international distribution, her career is proof that genre filmmaking thrives on both discipline and passion.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:31
On this week's episode of the podcast, my guest is a screenwriter, producer and director. She co wrote Tekken two she successfully crowdfunded her film debris, and now she's working on a ton of other stuff, which we're gonna get into on the show with Nicole Jones Dion, Hey, Nicole, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Nicole Jones Dion 0:31
Oh, thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 0:31
You know it's my pleasure, Nicole, because you, I think you're the first person who have had on who is also a member of the screenwriting you alumni series. I'm pretty sure you were the first person. Oh, cool, yeah. It's, yeah. I don't know why I haven't had anybody else on there yet, on here, yet. Excuse me. Because you know, it's that group is always doing great things. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on here is because every time I turn around, you're always up to something new. You're You're always creating some great content. So that's why I wanted to have you on I think everyone could learn a lot from you. So just to get started, you know, just learning more about Nicole Jones, Dion, I wanted to ask, you know, Nicole, what made you get started in screenwriting and the film industry in general?

Nicole Jones Dion 0:31
You know, it's funny, because when I moved to LA, oh, God, a long, long time ago, I don't want to say exactly how long. I'll give away my age, but when I moved out here, I My intention was never to get into films or screenwriting. It was to get into the video game industry. So I started out working in video games, and then I kind of segued into comics, and then the stories I was coming up with, people were like, oh, doesn't make great movies. And I was like, Oh, that's such a cliche. I don't want to be that cliche Hollywood screenwriter. And, you know, flash forward, and here I am. So I think because I started out working in that comic book and video game space, a lot of my my screenplays and the genres that I'm naturally drawn to are these, like, you know, fun, sci fi action, or, you know, horror, you know, just, just these really fun fanboy type projects and and you can see that in the films that I've done, you know, if you look at, you know, like Dracula The Dark Prince, which we did, Jon Voight, that's a very, even though it's a Dracula film, it's more of a fantasy epic, you know, Sword and Sorcery type take on the Dracula mythos. And then Tekken two, which is based on the video game series, you know, I kind of got that gig, you know, directly through Dracula. And then also because I had that tie with the video game industry and, you know, and then writing for the Sci Fi Channel, which I did last October, I did an original film for them, which aired as part of their 30 Days of Halloween series that was called they found hell. And and now I'm transitioning into directing. And I just directed my first feature, which is called stasis, which is another sci fi kind of action film. So it's, it's funny, a lot of people think of me primarily as a horror writer, but my, the genesis of my career, and the start of it is really more in that sci fi video game type space.

Dave Bullis 0:31
So, so did you find that, you know, the video game industry, you know, I actually made a project for the video game industry, kind of, sort of, and what I found is, when I reached out to them, a lot of them were kind of leery, always about going and making things, you know, about, you know. Know, you know different projects because of, you know, X, Y and Z. So I wanted to ask you, Nicole, did you find it it's harder or easier? And I know this is that's a very broad stroke. Did you want it's harder or easier in the video game industry to get your foot in the door than it is the film and TV industry?

Nicole Jones Dion 0:00
I think, I mean, it's changed. The video game industry changed a lot since I worked in it. I mean, just to kind of put it in perspective, when I was doing it, that was during that weird time when they were doing live action video games. So it was almost like a choose your adventure movie that was kind of friends. Now I'm dating myself, people who know that era and at the time, and that ended up being a failed experiment, because you ended up with all ended up with all the cost and expense of making a movie, plus all the cost and expense of making a video game. And so they got away from that really fast, and now with, you know, the way that the computer graphics have advanced, it's like you're getting, like, these amazing photo realistic results without having to do like a live action shoot. But I would say, because of the cost involved in video games, it's definitely easier to do films, because you can go out and shoot a little movie on your iPhone. Now, whereas with video games, you know, you've got programming and and the solid modeling and the video, you know, all the TV that's intrinsic is part of that process, I think it is a harder nut to crack, especially now, you know, you know,

Dave Bullis 0:04
I remember all of those live action video games too. I think there was one called Fox hunt. And I remember, you know, trying renting those games. I'm thinking to myself, this can't be the future, can it? And I remember that era where everyone was doing, at least everyone had one. There was a one called psychic detective. I remember that one meander was kind of the big one with Mark Hamill. That was, yeah, I remember that one too.

Nicole Jones Dion 0:04
Yeah, yeah, weird. It was a weird time. I think people kind of try to forget that, that that era even existed.

Speaker 1 0:04
Yeah, I remember that so well be so, you know, you went to the video game industry and, you know, you tried your hand at that. And I agree with you completely. The video game industry has changed immensely, because I have friends who work in the video game industry. And, you know, even when I was pitching some of my projects, things have changed, even five from five years ago now, you know, I mean, and now look at us now, Nicole, Pokemon, Pokemon Go, is the new, you know, the new craze, and they're making a mobile NES system for 60 bucks. And, you know, I'm sure that's going to be a number one bestseller as well. So it's like the retro now is, you know, making, making a whole everything sick holes. I'm trying to say,

Nicole Jones Dion 7:30
Yeah, no, it's amazing. It's amazing. I mean, an augmented reality is such a fascinating thing. I I'm trying to avoid the Pokemon Go phenomena, just because I have this addictive personality, and I know once I get sucked in that did, I'm done. There goes my productivity for the rest of my life. But I did play Ingress, which is a platform that it was based on, and, and I think augmented reality is it's just, it's fascinating. The gameplay experience is really, really interesting. And, yeah, I think there's, it could be the wave of the future, at least wave of the future for right now. It's a fun little trend. I'm definitely keeping an eye on it. I mean, Nintendo's market value went up like $7 billion over the weekend just based off this one game alone. So, yeah, it's, it's an exciting time. It's exciting time for it to be in video games, film, TV, anything, because it's just the wild west right now. You know, with with all the new cable outlets and Netflix and Hulu and everybody doing all this original content. It's, it's, it's interesting, because the rules are all changing, and they're changing daily. And like trying to keep, you know, you don't, you can't even Chase trends anymore, because the trends are changing. So it's like trying to figure out, you know, to have to get one step ahead of that curve and and stay ahead of the rest of the flock, you know, it's a fun time.

Dave Bullis 8:44
Yeah, and even with crowdfunding, you know, I noticed all the video games now, or we're just being crowdfunded because they were, you know, basically the company would say, hey, we can't take a chance on these video games. So that, you know, the developers, you know, would go out and they would go make, you know, raise funds on Kickstarter. And I was shocked at seeing some of the prices, you know, some of the amounts that they were, amounts that they were raising, because I was thinking to myself, wow, you know, these, you know, I'm granting the, these are the head developers, you know, and they're coming out and saying, you know, this is us doing this. But, but still, you know, I was a little shocked that they were getting the the amount that they were,

Nicole Jones Dion 9:12
Yeah, well, because a lot of these, the video game companies, a lot of the board game companies, too, are using crowdfunding almost as a way of doing pre sales for the product. It's also as a way to test Thanks. Could you know, I do a lot of work now with Sean Cunningham, is the creator Friday the 13th, and they just did a big crowdfunding campaign for the Friday the 13th video game, which they just previewed at e3 a couple weeks ago. And the gameplay looks amazing. So if you're a fan of I'm gonna go do a little pitch here, but if you're a fan of the Friday the 13th franchise. This looks really cool,

Dave Bullis 9:44
Well, and I'm a huge fan of it, so I can't, I can't wait for the video game, by the way. But anyways, we know, you know, as we train, we follow your career. I know, you know, you obviously transfer, you know, translated out of, out of video games. And he started doing, doing more feature films. So how did you get, you know, attached to writing, you know, Dracula, the Dark Prince.

Nicole Jones Dion 10:14
That one. It was such a long story, but I had met where to begin. So I had written an adaptation of an image graphic novel called the Scribbler, which I'd done for Kickstarter entertainment. They went on to do a wanted with Angelina Jolie and James McAvoy. And so at the time, they were going around shopping my script, approaching different directors, and one of the directors that they had introduced me to as a possibility was this gentleman by the name of Perry tail. And then the writers strike happened, and that project ended up never going anywhere. But Perry and I stayed in touch over the years, and we collaborated on a bunch of projects and, and he had been approached with, you know, the possibility of writing and directing this, this Dracula film, and, and he's like, I need help with the script. Do you want to come on board? And I was like, Absolutely, dude, you're my guy, you know. And so we, we worked on Dracula together, then we worked on Tekken together, and then he just produced my first feature film. So it's one of these ongoing, you know, long term relationship. That's one of the things with this industry. It's all about building relationships, finding champions who are willing to go out there and and, you know, put their their necks out for you and making that really good first impression, and then that'll it'll just carry you can build a critter out of that, or at least get your foot in the door.

Dave Bullis 11:29
So when you got your foot in the door, were you mainly doing like script adaptations, or did you come in with already having some of your own original material already written?

Nicole Jones Dion 11:38
Oh gosh, I had probably, at the time I did Dracula, I probably had at least 15 specs already on the shelf that had won various contests and had been optioned nothing that had actually gone into production at that point. So with Dracula and Tekken and those types of things, those were all writing assignments that I was brought on to either fix and fisting scripts or develop ideas from scratch with the producers. Yeah, but I would say that stasis, which is the script, the feature that I just wrote and directed, is the first time I actually pitched an idea. I was hired to write my original idea. Everything prior to that had been somebody else had an idea or had an existing script that needed work, which is what 90% of the industry is, is developing other people's stuff.

Dave Bullis 12:21
So before you know, you wrote drag, before you came on a project of Dracula, you had written 15 spec scripts. So my question then is, Nicole, how did you find the time to write 15 spec scripts?

Nicole Jones Dion 12:32
Oh, you just do it. You just I have no life. And I think I mentioned I have an addictive personality. Instead of once, I actually had to give up video games. I had to give him up cold turkey, which is really hard and and, but one of the things I used to fill the void then is I just, I just write. I write constantly. I write every day, all the time. I have no life. I have no real family out here in LA. I mean, I have my husband, but all my family's back East. So it's I don't have a lot of the normal day to day distractions that other people have, and I can just immerse myself completely in my work, which is fine, because I love it.

Dave Bullis 13:06
So, you know, just speaking about your work, you know, could you deal us just a glimpse and, you know, into your process, you know, is there a certain time of day you write? Is there anything, any sort of special rituals you go through just to get, sort of put yourself in that, in that writing mindset,

Nicole Jones Dion 13:20
I tend to because I'm kind of a night owl, and I guess because I tend to write things that are darker anyway, I work better at night, which kind of sucks if you're working vampire hours. It's hard to associate with the real world. But yeah, and as far as rituals, I don't really have any rituals. I do have a treadmill desk that I use, just because sitting is is not good for you all day. I like working on that. And, yeah, I just do it at night. It's like something about when the sun goes down, that's when my creativity is at its its peak.

Dave Bullis 13:56
So do you subscribe to any method like the USC sequencing method, you know, like, you know, the 3x structure, say, the cat. Do you do you subscribe to any of these? Of these methods?

Nicole Jones Dion 14:06
I do, kind of a blend. I do save the cat with, you know, what Chris was called, The mini movie method, which is essentially the UPC sequencing method. Kind of do an overlay of the two in advance. A lot of these structuring tools, they're all very similar. There's a lot of overlap, anyway. And if you just look for the things that they have in common, I would say those are the things to focus on. You know, it's like they all have turning points and act breaks and inciting incidents. And there's, there's some subtle differences, but I found that by using faith the cat with the mini movie method, that seems to cover most of the bases.

Dave Bullis 14:41
Yeah, I've noticed there is a lot of overlap too, especially with the USC sequencing method and Chris so many movie method, you know? But I think Chris so to me, I really do like that mini movie method. And I find that that, you know, breaking into eight sequences really does help me sort of plan out the movie, if you know what I mean,

Nicole Jones Dion 14:58
Right! And it breaks. Down into these smaller, bite sized chunks. So it's not so daunting. So when you're first starting out, you're not looking at a blank page and thinking, oh my god, I have to write 90 or 120 pages. Now it's like, Oh no, I just have to get to the next 15 pages and and that's a lot more manageable. I can do, you know, 15 pages in a day or two, and then she's like, okay, then we go on to the next day.

Dave Bullis 15:19
So when, when you're sitting down to write, you know, you sort of what do you sort of need before you write? Meaning, do you need to sort of outline this heavily or write even a treatment, or do you just sort of get a starting point and just sort of go map from there?

Nicole Jones Dion 15:34
I'm a huge fan of outlining in advance, and I think this is a really good skill set, especially if you want to be a working writer in Hollywood, because a lot of these producers are not just going to hire you to write the script. They're going to need to see outlines. They're going to need to see treatments in advance. It's a skill you're going to have to learn. So you may as well practice those muscles while you you're working on your own specs. For me, I'm so I do have this one thing where it's like, I can't write a script until I know what it's called. And it's this weird hang up I have so I have to start with a title, and it's so dumb, and the title will change, but I have to have at least a title, and then, and then solid, solid log line. I always refer back to my log line, so I'll first things. First, I write the title, I write the log line, and then I start breaking out the bare bones of it, you know, doing like the breaking it up into the four acts, one act, the first half of the second act, second act, second half of the second act, and then the third act, at least having like a sentence for each knowing what that backbone is for the story. And then I'll start getting deeper into the Save the cat or the mini movie breakdown. But yeah, I have to have at least, at least a three or four page outline flash treatment before I'm comfortable starting actually writing the script.

Dave Bullis 16:44
You know, something I found out recently is something where I basically I can't write unless I can build the movie and then break it down again. You I mean, like it's sort of building and rebuilding, building and rebuilding. And, you know, because I don't know why, but I'm terrible with titles anymore. Like, titles to me, You know what I mean? Like, I just, if I don't know the title, what I do is I just sort of go past because I'll end up obsessing over the title, and I'll be like, you know, I can't figure out what to do.

Nicole Jones Dion 17:13
Spend a day looking at titles. Also, another thing I get hung up on this is just my weird little brain. I have to know what my character's names are, and names are, and names have to have significance to the story somehow, which you know, this is, I can't call them John and Jane. It's like they have to have meaningful name. I don't know. It's just my own little quirk, I guess. But yeah, for me, it's like going back to that log line, even like, if I if I start to write, and it's not feeling like it's something's not working out, go back to that log line that always becomes my sanity check. It's like, Is this because you want to make sure it's high concept and marketable, and you can sell it and people get it and just as few words as possible. And if I start to stray from that log line, I go back, readjust course, and then dive back in.

Dave Bullis 17:58
Yeah, you know, I oftentimes do too, where I just put in, like, you know, like, you know, guard a, guard B, you know, I'm just trying to fly through it, but I think you know, your method has a lot of validity to it, because characters suggest plot. And you know, if you have a character and just what sort of map that character out, and everything you know he or she would dictate, you know what they do. You know what I mean. Because, for instance, you know, a upbeat, you know, we know, you know, law abiding citizen is going to handle problems differently than you know. Maybe somebody you know, you know, born and they, you know, they, they've decided to take a criminal life, if you know what I mean, and they both had to, like, you know, get something from somebody that each have incredibly different methods, but how to get that thing from that person?

Nicole Jones Dion 18:38
Yeah. And one of the things I'll do to I'm sorry I can't remember which book I got this from, but when you're when I'm looking at the outline for the story, is like you break it down by plot, and then I'll go through and I'll and I'll split it out and say, Okay, what are my three major characters doing in each of these sequences? And you always, you have your protagonist, your antagonist, and then whoever the emotional character is, sometimes just a love interest or a best friend or a mentor, but make sure that each of them is doing something in every scene. And the other thing to keep in mind is, if you want to have a compelling story, the antagonist is the hero of his own story, so they need to be doing something in opposition to the protagonist every time. And so that's all. I'll break it down, and I'll say, I'll have the plot, and then, like a one sentence description about what each my protagonist, my antagonist and my emotional character are doing in that scene as well. And that helps. And you can start seeing character arcs and theme. You know, having a theme is also very important, and that's a kind of a controversial topic, because I know some people have different definitions about what theme is, but, you know, it's just some sort of statement about the universal human condition. You know, working that, and that's where that emotional character usually comes in, helping resonate, you know, to become a change agent, to bring your protagonist from wherever they are at the beginning of the film through their character arc to the end, to that changed person at the end. And you can figure all that out in the outline. It's so much easier to do it in the outline stays and write your whole script and then realize, Oh, nothing changed or it doesn't have the heart that it needs. I'd much rather do all that work up front, in the outline stage, when it's easier to fix and see and see those problems.

Dave Bullis 20:30
Yeah, and you're right too, because, you know, as I've found, you know, and reading other scripts, and even in my own scripts, the antagonist is sort of the person leading the film, because they're the sort of the ones you know in a superhero movie, that's a super the superhero you know, meet the antagonist when the antagonist launches their plan. You know what I mean, like, and you see that in the Avengers movies. So the antagonist, and even in horror movies like, you know, Friday 13th, Jason's the one sort of, you know, going through the film, and he's taken out these teenagers one by one, up until one of them finds, you know, oh my gosh, where's my friend that they go look for, they find a dead body, then Jason springs and attacks again. Yourself like that. You find the antagonist really is sort of the engine of the whole story,

Nicole Jones Dion 21:08
Yeah, and that's why you have to spend much time developing your antagonist as as you do your protagonist and, you know, and make them real, flesh them out. Don't, don't come up with the two dimensional, you know, mustache twirling villain. It's like, give them a goal and a motivation and a reason for doing what they're doing, and just, you know, be evil for the sake of being evil. Okay, sometimes you can get away with that, but I think sympathetic villains, or at least empathetic villains, are always much more powerful and much more effective.

Dave Bullis 21:38
Yeah, very true. And you touched on theme. I, you know, I was talking to another writer about this, about whether the theme should be one word. I've also heard the theme should always be a question, you know, you know, what would you do to achieve your goal? You know, big question mark at the end there, you know, because I've seen, you know, like you were saying, you know, it's always a statement about the the human condition. And some people have said, well, it should be a question that the movie answers. If you know what I mean,

Nicole Jones Dion 22:01
Yeah. I mean, I don't. I don't have, like, absolute, you know, when it comes theme, it's like, yeah. Sometimes it takes the form of a question, sometimes it's a statement. It just has to be something universal and that everyone can relate to. And I would also caution against, you know, writing from a soapbox, you know, where you're you have an agenda that you're trying to preach down onto people, I think that usually falls flat in the in the telling. It's, I think it's much better to take something like a universal theme and then explore it from different angles and maybe leave the ending ambiguous. Like, what is, you know, like, raise this big question, but then maybe there are several answers. And this is just one of many, you know, and the attack, and I think in the best stories, the antagonist and the protagonist are both trying to achieve the same theme, I guess, or approach that same theme, but from different directions. And you know, maybe you agree with them, maybe you don't, but at least now, it opens a thought provoking conversation about who we are as humans, and that sort of thing, I don't know, kind of cool.

Dave Bullis 23:03
Yeah, I think that is an actual way to put it. And, you know, because, you know, I think when we, when, when we, when we get better. I think, you know, as I realized too, about when we get better at certain things, like, you know, for instance, you were talking about writing the treatment in the outline, there's a skills you need to have. And that's also something that I've realized, too, is that, you know, as we the more, the more of what we do, the better we get at it. You know what I mean? That's usually a rule, you know, a rule of thumb, so to speak. And so when we, when we're writing a theme or treatment, or even we're writing, you know, the script itself, we're always trying to get better at doing those fine details, and that's a trick of screenwriting? No, because we're always trying to put all these different skills together. You know what I mean? Building a World, building a character, writing compelling action lines, writing compelling stories, you know it's, it's and themes and all that stuff. That's why screenwriting, I think, is so challenging at the end of the day.

Nicole Jones Dion 23:55
Yeah, and there's always room to grow. There's always room to new to learn new things and try new skills. I'm always trying to get better. I'm never you know. I've had four films made and a fifth one that's in post production right now, and I'm not an expert. I don't claim to know it all. There's always things out there to learn from other people, read scripts, from professional writers who are better than you, and push yourself to get to that next level, because there's always room to grow Absolutely.

Dave Bullis 24:22
And speaking of some of those movies, you know, you had Tekken two, because you use revenge. You know that that movie came out in 2014 so, you know, you know, how did you get, you know, how would you get aboard that project?

Nicole Jones Dion 24:35
Well, it was the same people who had done Dracula. So Dracula was, like, a, like, a proving ground, and then they're like, oh, we'd like to bring you. We'd like to we'd like to invite you back for Tekken. And Tekken had its own unique challenges, because originally, our vision with that one was we wanted to do something that was very, very true to the video game and very true to the fans, because the director, who was attached at the time was, like, a huge tech fan, very passionate about it, and we pitched them this all. Awesome, awesome thing, and that's not what they wanted to do. They wanted to do something different. And so there's been some a little bit of pushback from the the Tekken community, because they're like, this isn't really a second movie. And I'm like, Dude, I wish you could have seen the original treatment, because that was, it was awesome. And you know, maybe someday that movie will get made. It's just, in this case, the producers wanted to do something a little different. So we, at the end of the day, I'm just a hired gun, you know, you give them what you You're there to make the producer happy and give them what they want.

Dave Bullis 25:28
So, yeah, yeah, you know, I agree with that completely. You know, that's why, you know, I have had friends in simple situations, and, you know, at that point, yeah, you, you know, like you just said, you realize you're the Hired Gun, you know, the producer, it's whatever you know, since they hired you, you're, you know, you have to deliver what they're looking for, you know. And I have friends who are who've had similar situations where they were trying to always force the issue, and, you know, things didn't go well. Let's just say that.

Nicole Jones Dion 25:53
Nicole, yeah, it's like, you know, you have to remember, if you're writing a spec, that's yours. You can do whatever you want, but if you're writing for someone else, and your job then, is to take their vision and make the best possible version of that vision. You know, even if you don't necessarily agree with the vision, that's not what you're there for. I mean, you can raise objections or whatever, try to but at the end of the day, you work for them, it's their idea. Give them the best possible version of their idea that you can

Dave Bullis 26:21
Yes, yeah, I concur. And, you know, speaking of your projects, we actually moved and talked to about debris, which is, you know, your short horror film, you know, you actually raised just about $20,000 on Indiegogo. You raised 330% over your goal. So I have to, you know, ask us, you know, I have to ask, you know, can you just give us a little bit, you know, about what debris is about, and I want to ask you too, about, you know, your crowdfunding campaign.

Nicole Jones Dion 26:48
Yeah, you know, debris was really funny because it was the first time I tried to do crowdfunding. And I was like, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing. We're gonna this. This is gonna be a mess. So I only originally asked for 5000 which wasn't gonna be nearly enough to get the film made. But I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't you know, I don't know if I'll be lucky if I get that. And then the fact that we were able to raise, you know, almost 20 was mind blowing. I mean, it got to the point where I'm like, Who are you people, and why are you giving me money? I don't understand. And I wish I could, I wish magic formula wise, so I could, like, replicate it at will. And I've done another crowdfunding campaign since then for another short film called death date, which is also successful, but not the same runaway train that debris was. And I think the difference is debris just had this really cool concept, like a really high concept, that people resonated with. And so the concept behind debris is, in the aftermath of the Fukushima tsunami, you have the curse down on his luck. Traitor Hunter is out with a metal detector on a California beach and finds a cursed samurai sword that's washed up on the beach from the Fukushima tsunami wreckage and and then he brings it home, and bad things happen. But I think by having this, you know, there's people love samurais. There's a huge like, cult following, I guess, just around Sam rise, and the fact that the story itself was based on an actual Japanese legend, and there's been a variety of films made in Japan about this particular store and the bad things that happened to the people who own it. But I thought this was kind of an interesting approach, because now it's like East meets West. You have this very ignorant American finds a sword, doesn't realize it's dangerous, and then what you know as his life slowly unravels. So yeah, we made the short film, and it, I think it's been in probably, oh God over. It's been in over a dozen festivals, like genre festivals. It's been nominated for a bunch of awards. It won a couple of awards. And so with that one, now I've I'm trying to turn it into a feature, if possible. So I've written a feature version of the script going out to different producers, see if I can find someone who'd be interested in tackling the subjects on a broader, you know, on a bigger scale, because there's interest, I think it's, I think it's a project that people like and would be like to see more of, you know, more of the story, more of the sword and just make it bigger. Do more.

Dave Bullis 29:03
Is that online anywhere for I want to check out?

Nicole Jones Dion 29:06
The trailers available online, because it's still technically in the festival circuit. I can't release the film itself. We'll probably, we'll see where things are at by the end of the year, but I think we'll probably finish our festival run by the end of the year, and then maybe we'll, we'll either release it or we're also looking into getting distribution deals internationally. So it might be available on, I don't know, video on demand, or something TV, whatever markets are available out there.

Dave Bullis 29:31
Cool, you know, yeah, I definitely think there's a market for something like that. And you know, when I saw, you know, how much, by the end I saw, how much this is, how much this is raising, which I think I donated $5 to this, our camera. Oh, my pleasure. Cuz, I, you know, I checked on, I checked it, checked on it a couple, you know, a couple weeks later, and I saw, well, you know, this is almost ending. And I was like, wow. Nicole is killing it. I was like, well, here, if 330% past our goal, I mean. And I thought, you know. Either somebody has a huge contact list, or somebody, well, I said, you know, somebody did something, right? You know, somewhere, you know, either you have a massive contact list, you you know, you have a rich, very rich relative donate, you know, money into it.

Nicole Jones Dion 30:23
I have no rich relatives. I wish. No, this was definitely like the Bernie Sanders of the crowdfunding campaign. It was a lot of small donations, you know, and they just added up over time. And, no, it was really phenomenal just to watch the response to this idea and this little film. It was really gratifying, and it gave us a lot of confidence that we were making a story that people wanted, you know, the people wanted to see, and that resonated with people and, you know, and that, at the end of the day, that's really what it's about, you know, telling stories that people want to hear and maybe make them think a little bit along the way.

Dave Bullis 30:56
Yeah, I concur. And, you know, obviously, you know, the concept was popular as well as you were saying. And you know, there's always a crowd for an audience for horror of any kind. You know what? I mean, there's always gonna be an audience for horror.

Nicole Jones Dion 31:11
Yeah, well, and it's funny, because, you know, the when I was doing all the research for debris, and then the feature length script for debris, I stumbled on this other samurai story. And so I'm like, Okay, I have to write this one. It's true story set in fuel Japan, and that was a script that ended up winning the grand prize at the Palm street film writing competition. So it's like, I wouldn't do my little samurai phase, I guess. And it's great. I love it. I love action films. I love martial arts films and and so it's like, I also, I always cost and writers about, you know, pigeonholing, because Hollywood will pigeonhole you. And I'm like, You know what? If this is a hole I got stuck in, it's one I wouldn't mind living in, because I just love that space so much.

Dave Bullis 31:55
Yeah, and you actually, by the way, congratulations, because you just did, you just did win the palm palm, palm street competition. What was that? Was it on Monday, I believe, or Tuesday?

Nicole Jones Dion 32:06
They just announced the winners, like, Monday or Tuesday this week? Yeah. So that's that's very new, and, you know? And that was kind of interesting, because I don't normally enter contest, because I'm a genre writer generally, and those unless it's a genre specific competition that don't do well, and these broad mainstream contests. But in this case, because it was, it was actually an action drama, you know, set in feudal Japan with Samurais and binges, and it's just like going in all kinds of blood in action. Hey, you know, this one might actually stand a chance and, and then it ended up winning the grand prize. So that was really gratifying.

Dave Bullis 32:38
So, you know, I know you can't talk too much about it. But so I wanted to ask, obviously, is, you know what upcoming projects that you what upcoming projects are you working on that you can actually talk about, if any, if any you can talk about.

Nicole Jones Dion 32:50
I mean, well, see. So there's my, my feature film that I directed, stasis, which is currently in post. We already have distribution lined up for that, which is really exciting too. So that film supposed to be ready for ASM, which is in November, and that's kind of at the YA sci fi film. It's been called Terminator for teens. So if you like time travel, a terminator type things, you know, check it out when it comes out. I think that'll be really cool. What else I'm working right now? I'm trying to raise money for my next feature, which is a horror script that's based loosely on actual events. So I don't want to give too much away about that, but that one, in fact, seems like a phone with you. I have a call with the producer for that. So that'd be, that'd be nice to get that started production before the end of the year. And, yeah, what else I'm just, you know, I always got things going on. We're still in post production on death date, which is the other short film that I did after debris. It's a meeting with my editor next week. We're gonna try to lock picture on that soon. And I don't know, I mean, you just gotta multiple irons in the fire, you know, waiting for something to hit. Just keep on chugging.

Dave Bullis 34:00
Yeah. Yeah. And then is that is excellent advice, Nicole, before we go, I have one Twitter question. Come in, okay? And that was Nicole, what do you look for when you're deciding to be involved with a particular project?

Nicole Jones Dion 34:15
That is always the million dollar question, right? It's like, it has to, it has to appeal to me at some level. I don't know. It's hard to say I'm because I have this genre background I love what I guess if it were literature, it'd be called speculative fiction, basically Twilight Zone type stuff. Things that appeal to me personally are things that and really cool twists at the end, or are just thought provoking in some way. I love, like, old sci fi from like, the 70s and 80s, when there was, like, some sort of, like social message, but it was buried within the context of the film. You know what I mean, like with story link green and Planet of the Apes and Logan's Run those types of films I really like, from a sci fi perspective, on the horror side. Yeah, I I'm drawn more towards what I call hidden realities. So less flashers, more paranormal, more occult, more supernatural type stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I just have to something that's cool, like, if it could be made into a video game or a comic book camp is our I'd like it because that's where I That's my world. That's where I come from.

Dave Bullis 35:27
Nicole, very cool. You know, it's been a pleasure having you on and before I go, I just want to ask Nicole, where can people find you out online?

Nicole Jones Dion 35:34
Oh, I'm on Facebook. You'll find me on Facebook if you like weird news, then totally follow me on Twitter. I'm at novari, N, O, V, A, R, I, S, I post all kinds of wacky, weird news stories, conspiracy theories, and every now and then, I'll toss in a screenwriting tip, just you know, for good measure. Yeah, but that's and I'm on LinkedIn too, but mostly I like, I live on Facebook and Twitter, so that's a good place to look for me.

Dave Bullis 36:00
Yeah, yeah. I saw the tweet you just put out on NASA predicts the end of Western civilization,

Nicole Jones Dion 36:04
Yeah, stuff like that, post punk window stuff into the world, stuff conspiracy theories. Killer virus is gonna wipe out humanity. If you like that stuff. Follow me on Twitter. It's full of it.

Dave Bullis 36:17
Nicole, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I wish you the best of luck with everything, and I will see you in the screenwriting you Facebook group. And we'll, you know, we'll, we'll be chatting screenwriting there more. And you know, if you ever need anything, please let me know.

Nicole Jones Dion 36:33
Awesome. Thanks so much, Dave. This is great.

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BPS 448: Screenwriting, The BAM Method, And How To Write A Screenplay That Stands Out with Mike Bierman

December 4, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The lights of Hollywood may glitter, but behind them lies the quiet, disciplined work of the storyteller. On today’s episode, we welcome Mike Bierman, a 45-time award-winning screenwriter and the founder of the Facebook group Screenwriters Who Can Actually Write. His path is not a typical one, for he began not from film school corridors but from a father’s intuition, reading his daughter’s audition scripts and thinking, “I can do better.” That spark ignited a journey into screenwriting that has not only led to awards but also to a philosophy of writing that challenges the very conventions so many cling to.

Mike’s story begins with a simple observation: much of what passes for screenwriting is less than inspired. As he dove into the craft, he discovered both the rigid rules that bound beginners and the profound freedom of bending or breaking those rules once mastered. “Every writer is different,” Mike explained, “what works for me works for me. That’s a good place to start to look at. But it doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you.” His wisdom is clear: writing is less about formulas and more about discovering one’s unique method of bringing stories alive.

One of the most fascinating aspects of Mike’s process is what he calls the BAM method—the Bierman Asynchronous Method. Instead of marching forward from page one like a dutiful soldier, he starts with the ending. Knowing where a story resolves anchors the journey. He writes from the outside in, weaving scenes like a puzzle, placing them out of sequence until the picture emerges whole. This approach, he says, prevents the dreaded writer’s block and keeps the story tethered to a meaningful destination. To know where you are going, after all, is to never be truly lost.

And yet, Mike’s tough-love philosophy is equally important. He pulls no punches when it comes to the common mistakes of new writers. Formatting errors, bloated scripts, and the belief that software can replace skill are illusions that must be shattered. “You’re not a writer if you don’t write,” he says with conviction. Fear of failure, fear of the blank page—these are ghosts that vanish the moment one dares to type anything at all. A poor script can always be rewritten, but a script unwritten is nothing but dust in the imagination.

Beyond his personal method, Mike has also created a community. His Facebook group was born out of frustration with shallow discussions elsewhere, but it has grown into a gathering place for professionals and serious learners alike. Within that group, contracts have formed, films have been optioned, and wisdom is freely shared. It is, as he describes, a place where screenwriters commit to treating the craft not as a hobby but as a vocation worthy of study, rigor, and respect.

His upcoming book, Secrets of Screenwriting: Collected Essays, continues this mission. Unlike traditional manuals that promise formulas for success, Mike’s book is a raw compilation of essays, reflections, and, at times, rants that emerged from his years of guiding and challenging fellow writers. It is filled with cursing, passion, and honesty—meant not to coddle, but to awaken. Readers may feel scolded one page and inspired the next, but they will always feel challenged to rise higher in their craft.

In listening to Mike, one can sense the deeper undercurrent: screenwriting is not just about structure or technique—it is about truth. Flawed characters, difficult choices, and endings that reveal the essence of a story. Scripts are not machines to be engineered; they are living things to be breathed into existence. And like any living thing, they grow best in the soil of discipline, vision, and a willingness to face one’s own creative challenges.

In the end, Mike reminds us that the screenwriter’s path is both solitary and communal. Solitary in the hours spent with words that only we can birth, and communal in the shared wisdom, encouragement, and hard truths of those who walk beside us. Every page written is a step closer not only to a finished script but to a deeper understanding of the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
My next guest is actually a 45 time award winning screenwriter, and he's the founder of the popular Facebook group screenwriters who could actually write. We're going to talk about a lot of this stuff, including templates, and we're talking about his process of writing. We're going to talk about save the cat and all that other good stuff. What does he think about all of it? Well, why don't we all give it a listen with my guest, Mike Bierman.

Dave Bullis 2:21
Hey, Mike, that's not for coming on the podcast.

Mike Bierman 2:49
Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:51
Oh, it's great to have you, Mike. You know, you're somebody that's been on my radar for a while. You're the host of the screenwriters who can actually write Facebook group. You're a 45 time award winning screenwriter. So, you know, obviously you're somebody that I've wanted to talk to. And, you know, just to get started, Mike, I wanted to ask you, you're a trial attorney, you know, by day. And I wanted to ask you, when did you get bit by the screenwriting bug?

Mike Bierman 3:14
I'm actually not. I hardly ever practice anymore, because between managing my daughter and doing the group actually takes an enormous amount of time, given the number of posts I do which you've seen, I'm sure you can understand that I rarely practice law anymore. I'm licensed. I can practice, do all the things I used to do. I just don't do it anymore, because what happens is I end up with a bunch of court dates that I can't control, scheduled out ad infinitum, you know, out into the future, and cases can drag on for years. So rather than commit to those types of things, I'm doing something else. I try to avoid trial work. Although I do, I do still practice some entertainment law behind the scenes, including, recently, I've done some of that, but generally I don't practice that anymore. And the way I got started in screenwriting is my daughter, Erica Bierman. She's in Hunger Games, catching fire, Hunger Games, Mockingjay one. Her scene was cut from Mockingjay two. It revealed too much, too early, but she was also in Dumb and Dumber too. She was when she started, she was getting auditions even very high level stuff. And I'd read the scripts and I'd say, wow, you know, I just don't think this is written very well. I think I can do better. And so I bought the screenwriters Bible by David Trottier, which is one of three or four books that I recommend everybody should have. I skimmed through it. I didn't read it. Wrote a 19 page short script, submitted to page Awards, which is top three contests in the world, and took top 25 scripts out of something like 7000 scripts. So. So just self taught and started off with a bang.

Dave Bullis 5:05
So the first screenwriting book that you ever bought was actually their chart. Here's book is that was that correct?

Mike Bierman 5:11
Yes, and it's, it's a great book. It's a really good overview to to screenwriting. There are other books that I like for different purposes, but that's a great first book. It's hard to imagine a better first book to start with, and Dave Trotter is actually a member of of the group, so I highly recommend that book. And while we're on books, I also highly recommend Linda aaronson's The 21st Century screenplay, which is all about different structures, non three act, all types of different jumping time structures and very complex structures. And you it's a great book, because you can actually figure out what structure would best suit your story idea. If you know what you're doing when you start writing, you can custom pick a structure that would be the best skeleton to flesh out for your story. So that's an that's an incredible book, very, very complicated. She's a very high level writer. She's from Oxford University, very meaty book, and it's one you can spend a lot of time with. For formatting. I like your cut to is showing by TJ Alex, which is a pen name. I know people who know who that is. I haven't bothered to ask, but that's the best book for formatting. It goes into the most depth any given situation. There are typically three to five professional, acceptable ways you can choose from to do it, and that is an essential book for screenwriters. Rick Tosca and also Richard toskin also wrote playwriting seminars 2.0 which is mostly about playwriting, because he was dean of theater at USC for, I think, about 30 years, a very long time, and that but that book also crosses into screenwriting, and it's an excellent book that breaks down the analysis of story, whether it's playwriting or screenwriting. And so those are, those are four books that I highly recommend.

Dave Bullis 7:31
You know, it's funny Mike, because the first book I ever read about screenwriting was also David charter, his book about formatting. I went into a borders and remember them when they were still around, but I wouldn't, yeah, I was sad when they went away, yeah? Cuz now all that's left is Barnes and Nobles and maybe a few independent stores here and there. But, you know, it's sad to see that that part of it go, you know,

Mike Bierman 7:54
Yeah, the brick and mortar bookstores are just there. They're really enjoyable because you can, you can browse, and there's a certain atmosphere, and you can, you can kill a few hours and find things you have no idea exist. The end of the internet. Internet is great, but there's a certain allure to a brick and mortar bookstore, and hopefully those will come back. I should have mentioned also that Rick toskin, that I just spoke of, who I think, recently got a Lifetime Achievement Award from, I guess, National Endowment of the Arts. He's actually in the screenwriting group as well. So we have some really high end gurus in there, lots of pros. Well over 100 produced films, films you've heard of, written by members of the group. So thought I'd mention that,

Dave Bullis 8:39
Yeah, the there are some, you know, members of the group that I've, you know, I've seen their posts about, you know, different things that they've they've written that, have, you know, been produced. For instance, I know somebody just wrote a, a the the screenplay for the latest Steven Seagal movie. And I remember he was in the group, and I was talking to him briefly. I think that's that Charles or Chuck.

Mike Bierman 8:59
I think his name is Chuck Cosmeyer that ended again, the end of the gun. And he has, I think he actually has another film coming out on that same deal with the same producer, not starring Steven Seagal. I know more about it, but I can't, I can't say at this point, that info is under wraps. But what I what I just told you, is fine. He does have another film under that deal, and I think he's either optioning or about to sell another script imminently. So we have a lot of activity. I have, I have two feature films in production myself right now. So so, you know, there are a lot of, there are a lot of people in the group with a lot of things going on, some really great stuff.

Dave Bullis 9:48
So that's why the name fits so well. Screenwriters who can actually write it, not just, not just talk about theory, right?

Mike Bierman 9:56
Well, I, you know, I there's a there's a certain haughtiness and snottiness to it. I'm the first to admit it, and I actually did it on purpose, because in reviewing screenwriting groups, there's one group in particular. It's just enormous. I won't name it, but it has nearly 20,000 members, and the type of questions asked in a group are just mind boggling. The the lack of thought going into, you know, posting a question with your name on it before you put it up, it's just incredible. I think when I started the group in my in my group description. I named it kind of sarcastically, because I was leaving the other group just in disgust. And wanted to try and get people who were, if not more experienced, a little bit more thoughtful about what they were writing and what they were saying, little more educated people in the in the craft. And so I think I posted, you know, screenwriting, screenwriting forum, hopefully without questions like, Is water wet and is it okay to kill my character? So the whole thing kind of started out as a a sarcastic announcement of a departure from, kind of like the great unwashed, with people saying, you know, I'm a screenwriter, because they, they, you know, wrote something on a napkin once to try to attract people, even beginners, but people who are more serious about learning the craft, who are looking at it as a profession rather than as a hobby.

Dave Bullis 11:37
Yeah, it's, I've joined other groups in the past as well. And a lot some of these questions, there was way too many questions about formatting. And for instance, there was actually a group that met physically here in Philadelphia. And these the beginners who would show up would always ask about formatting.

Mike Bierman 11:53
And when I said, buy a book, buy a book, read a script, buy a book, it's just not that it's not that tough. And unfortunately, sorry, cut you off there. But on for it. Unfortunately, that is all too common in a lot of screenwriting groups. And one of the rules, I have a rules driven group for this purpose, to try and keep the group on focus. And, you know, no political posts, and there are a bunch of other, a bunch of other rules. But you know, one of the, one of the basic tenets of the group is search the group itself before you ask a question, because they've been in people been in there for over a year, answering in depth, almost anything you can think of. And also, so search the internet before you ask a simple formatting question. Buy a book. It's just not that tough. And so all you're going to do by by asking that type of question in an open forum is attract ridicule, show you have no idea what you're doing, and get a bunch of troll responses. So you actually never get the right answer, because even the people giving you the right answer will be diluted by all the trolls. So, and that's very common, as you know,

Dave Bullis 13:08
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know when, when people would ask that, in the group, in the in the physical group, I'd always say to the other person that was running it with me, I'd say, why don't we take these people, put them in their own group, and we can go over, like, formatting, and then the other half of the group, you know, we'll work on actual, you know, writing, and get into the structures. And the only, and he, you know, we kept going back and forth on this. And I said, because every meeting, we're sacrificing our strongest for our weakest. And what I mean by that is, you know, exactly, yeah, just just, you know, spending all this time on formatting when you you could buy fade in, or final draft, or writers duet, or whatever, and it takes care of it all for you. Or, you know, like,

Mike Bierman 13:45
Well, there's a miss, a little bit of a misconception. It takes, it takes care of the there's a difference between formatting and element placement on the page, and this is a common misunderstanding. Or, or people misstate this, the screenwriting software, there isn't any screenwriting software that actually formats per se for you. What the screenwriting software does is it actually puts the elements in place on the page so that you don't have to work in Word counting spaces. For example, you know, if you're going to do a parenthetical under dialog, the screenwriting software will put the position the cursor in the right place for, you know, a play format or screenwriting format for character or shot or transition or dialog action. Note, special, whatever it is that you're trying to do, it'll actually set it up on the page for you with the right number of preceding, following and intervening carriage spaces and intervening carriage returns. But what it actually doesn't do is format, and so that's one of the things that happens in beginning groups a lot. I. Uh, and I've seen I've seen it. I've seen professional scripts where people actually said, when I was Script doctoring or rewriting a script, I'd say, hey, you know, this is going to be a lot more work than you thought. Well, why is that? Is the story that? Well, the story is okay. The problem is the formatting. Everything's off. Well, that's impossible. I used Final Draft. Well, that's a very naive comment that shows how many screenwriting formatting errors they're going to be because the software doesn't actually format. It just it just puts things in the right place. The formatting is the understanding of how to how to direct the camera without using shot direction, for example, in a spec script, and how to properly write down the entire skeleton of a visual film in writing using as few words as possible, leaving as much white space on the on the page as possible, and screenwriting software is just the beginning. It's kind of like saying, I have a Ferrari, so now I'm going to be a, you know, a champion driver. There's an enormous difference between having the car and being able to drive. It does that kind of make sense?

Dave Bullis 16:17
Yeah, yeah. It does well, because you actually touched upon. What I was going to was, actually, I was going to say was, there were people who had Microsoft Word open, and they were using, like, four tabs for a character, three tabs for this. That is brutal, yeah, because they would turn in a script, and I would look at this, and I'd go, it's all off. And I'd say, What did you write this in? And that's what I'm saying, you know, the screen. Because they would always say, Well, Dave, you know, how do we write this? Blah, blah. And I'd say, no, no, you just use, grab the software. That's what I mean about, you know, buying final draft or whatever, and positions the elements correct?

Mike Bierman 16:49
Yeah, that then the other, the other thing beginners don't understand is, you know, they go out and pick Helvetica, or, you know, I don't even know the names of all the fonts, crazy fonts, swirls and, you know, HP, Lovecraft fonts and, okay, that stuff's great if you're if you're writing a free verse poem or something, but screenwriting is designed for every page to be one minute of screen time. Now, obviously, depending on action, depending on on dialog, the level of vocabulary, the way the scripts written, each page is going to vary. Obviously, you have an enormous amount of action, tightly written action. A page could go conceivably several minutes. But if you you know, okay, if you write, there's a two mile car chase down the dirt road that's not going to happen in one minute. Okay, so it the page length for filming can vary, but the whole idea is, on average, one page is one minute of film. Now, the only way you can do that, if you think about it, is if you have a particular font style, which is called a fixed pitch font, and the standard for that is courier, which is an old news font. I find it fairly ugly font, but they've developed all kinds of variant courier fonts. There's, you know, Courier, final draft. They've patented their own. There's courier, new courier dark, which is one I really like in there. There are a bunch of other variants of courier, and what it comes down to is, no matter what character you type, whether it's a special character, dollar sign, hashtag or pound sign, exclamation point, period, comma, capital P, small x. It doesn't matter whatever character you type, they all take up exactly the same amount of space on the page, and that's why you have to use a fixed pitch font. And some people will try to cheat. Let's say you're a novelist and you're overwriting your script and you want to get it down from 165 pages to 120 where somebody might actually read it, and you can't figure out any way to do it because you're overwriting everything. You're too green to rewrite your script properly. So what you do is you get the bright idea to go in and change the font to some font other than final draft. Go ahead and add a couple lines. One, top, one, bottom, cheat the margins left and right, and all of a sudden your page count drops down to 130 pages. You're within striking distance of your goal. The problem is, any professional looking at a single page of your script will immediately throw in the trash.

Dave Bullis 19:40
Yeah, and, you know, again, that's something that I've also seen too, especially on the cover page, like, they'll use, like, a different font for the title, and, you know, like, like, in all those specialized fonts and some artwork

Mike Bierman 19:54
Artwork thrown down the margins. And yeah, in in spec scripts. Yeah, I actually have a book coming out, being published by dos a blank publishing and it's, it's going to be called, it's coming out fairly shortly. I'm essentially finished with the manuscript, the body of it. I'm working on the some of the pictures, clearing copyrights, things like that. But the book is going to be called Secrets of screenwriting, with a subtitle of collected essays. I don't want anyone to think that this is like any of the other screenwriting books. It really isn't. It's a collection of my long essay posts from the group over the last year, and it's kind of a rambling, disordered volume full of all kinds of pearls of wisdom that just occurred to me from a post or someone's comment or something, I would pull out my phone and write these, these gigantic, sometimes five and six page posts. They're probably have a mental problem. I don't know why I do it, but I do, and I a lot of people asked me to collect those, or they wanted me to archive them somehow so they could reference them. Several pros have have used my rewriting post, which is very popular. It's about six pages long. They One Pro actually printed it out and glued it onto the wall above his computer, messaged me to tell me how useful it was. And I have a copyright post. People tend to like screen craft. Publish part of that copyright post, and I'm going to publish the whole thing in the book with screen crafts permission. They've already given me permission to republish the whole but that should be useful. I've kind of lost track of where I was, but there's, there's a plug for the book.

Dave Bullis 21:57
Do you know when that book's coming out Mike?

Mike Bierman 21:58
I have another contract to get it out in the next I think I've got 60 days or so to get the manuscript in. That's not a problem, because the manuscript is essentially finished, and then the publisher has to publish it within six months. So, and we're shooting for Barnes and Noble, you know, the brick and mortar stores, I guess they'll probably be a hard, hard copy, hardcover version, and the, you know, standard paperback type version. We suspect it'll be oversized, probably a five by eight or five by nine. It's probably gonna be about 260 pages, and it won't be like any other it won't be like Trotter's guide or anything like that. That'll be fully indexed, where you can go in and say, you know, gee, I have this particular question. I'm going to look this is, this is more of different subjects, the philosophies behind different ways of writing story, things like that. It's it's more essay form, rather than subject driven, like a lot of books. So it'll be very different. It's more like kind of the book you you sit down in a in a coffee shop and read it to get it's kind of like a mixture of opinion and method and things like that. So be very different.

Dave Bullis 23:24
Oh, very cool. Because, you know, I have a ton of screenwriting books, and this does sound very different than all the rest that I have, obviously, because this is a podcast. You can't see it, but next to me is my library of screenwriting books. But, yeah,

Mike Bierman 23:37
Well, you know, it's just smart. I mean, this is a is a very esoteric craft. It's a very closed industry. A lot of the really good screenwriters either don't have the time to help or don't want to help. And I've actually seen sabotaging groups. I've seen, I won't name any of them, but I've seen professional or advanced writers who actually get paid all the time to write giving wrong answers on purpose to throw off either someone they don't like or somebody that you know they just decided to screw with. And of course, that doesn't that doesn't help anybody except the pro who's keeping down the competition. So opinions are going to vary in screenwriting books, and I've I have my own very strong opinions. My my book is going to be full of them. It's going to be full of cursing. It's not edited. It will be edited. But my the language won't be edited out. Sometimes, if I'm angry about something, you know, I'll flavor the post with a sprinkling of cursing, because that's just how it came out. To keep the book genuine. It's the posts are actually going in as the original essays. They're not being edited down to make it politically correct or anything like that. So the book will offend some, it will amuse some, and it should help everyone that reads it.

Dave Bullis 24:58
And that's fantastic. Know, sometimes we need, we need a little tough love, Mike,

Mike Bierman 25:03
That's, and that's what the book is. I'll yell at you, I'll prop you up, I'll beat you down. Then I'll lift you up again. And I'll, I'll inspire you to write better and to keep going. And then I'll, I'll beat on you a while for doing something a certain way. That's, it's not a very effective or good or smart way, and then I'll build you up again. So it's, it's, it's kind of a tough ride, but enough people approached me to write it and said, Geez, you need to put all these things in a book. These are terrific that a publisher actually approached me to publish the book. So, you know, kind of a nice situation.

Dave Bullis 25:44
Yeah, it is an amazing situation. And, you know, sometimes we need that tough love, you know, just a funny anecdote, Mike, I think that you'll really enjoy, you know, I one time had a beginner approached me with a script, and they came into one of our group, but one of my groups that I was running, and their script had several pages within within the then the script with design drawings on them of what they were talking about inside the script.

Mike Bierman 26:10
Doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter if they're Picasso and it doesn't matter if they're Hemingway. Those things are not a good combination for a spec script, if you're if you're hired by somebody at DreamWorks who's absolutely visually driven, and you've already got the job, and they see you doodling the margins and say, Geez, what a great drawing. I sure would like to see some of those in your script. By all means, throw some artwork in the script, but either in a regular spec script, you don't do that. You don't put artwork in. Every rule is made to be broken. One of my most award winning scripts, it doesn't have artwork in it, per se, but I do some interesting things with a couple of different fonts that are cut in as JPEGs. One of the languages that the script is written in is Galilean Aramaic, which was the language spoken in the early Middle East, which ended not too long after Jesus' time. That's one of seven languages in the script. Well, there's no font for that, so I actually had to cut JPEGs into the script to put in the original Galilean Aramaic, which actually mattered, because at one point, the language actually appears on the screen as a special effect. So to save producers, the four months it took me to get four or five words, let me see we have a Yeah, four words took four months to get translated by one of the world's experts in this language. So to save producers time, if anyone picked up the script, I went ahead and had the translation already done and put in the script. So, you know, rules are made to be broken, but you need to learn the rules and get good so you can decide when you need to break them. I've never put our work, per se, in a script, and I'm up to, I don't know, 13 features with eight solely written, and then others co written with best selling authors and and people like that. And I had one person that wanted to put artwork in the script, and had a very frank talk with them, and I said, Look, you came to me. You want me to write this with you. I like the idea. Like the story, if you insist on putting artwork in the script, you're gonna write it alone. And that was it. And no artwork,

Dave Bullis 28:28
Yeah, and that's something I want to get into Mike, is, you know your screenwriting, you know your methods, and you know, so when you were starting out, you know, you had David's book, and you, you know, obviously you're reading, you say, you skim through that, and you were writing down your own ideas. And so I wanted to ask, did you ever adhere to any sort of like method, you know, whether it be three acts, five acts, any of that when you were writing, or did you just simply, just sort of how you had a starting point and you just went,

Mike Bierman 28:58
Okay, so three act, and basically didn't read the book, just looked at the book for formatting, went hadn't read any any professional script that they like, of any movie that I liked, just had seen a bunch of scripts that I didn't think were written well, had been sent to my daughter. There were some that were written. Well, they were, you know, by all means, someone researches this. Oh, she auditioned for that. Mike said the script is crap. Now, some of some of the scripts were crap. A lot of them were just mediocre. So, and I'm unusual in that I don't outline, and most writers do outline. There are just a few, I would say maybe less than 4% probably closer to 2% don't outline. I don't know if I want to call it a gift or if it's a curse, most writers will actually execute a complete fleshed out outline that may be 30, 40, 50, 60, pages before they write the screenplay, and they'll actually write it from the outline. I have never done that, and I write natively, but I also have developed a my own trademark writing method that a lot of Even pros have commented publicly. They said that it's helped them a lot, and a number of them are adopting, and I call it BAM, which is the Bierman asynchronous method. And with bam, what I do is I write the almost always write the end first, and sometimes I write the beginning first, but it's always either the beginning or the end, and then I wrote write the other end of it, whether it's the beginning or the end. So I always start with the beginning and end when I start a script. And frequently, the very first thing that I will do is write the end and write fade out the end, and it'll be the first scene I write that's very common for me. Then I'll go back and write the beginning. And then, typically, what I do is I will tie scenes into the beginning and end scene, the first and last by definition. And I will work backward from the outside in, which sounds strange until you try and see what it does. I will tie, you know, I may write the end, then I'll write the beginning, then I'll write the second scene of the screenplay. Then I'll go write three scenes back from the end. I'll jump back and write, you know, the third scene at the beginning. And then I'll know that I need a particular second act scene or a break, and I'll go in and I'll write that, and I'll just float it in the middle of final draft of writer duet, which is what I use now. I'll just float it in there, and I will then write whatever scene occurs to me that I'm inspired to write, that I know needs to be written at the time. And I fit them all together like a jigsaw puzzle, and I attach them to the anchors, which are both ends. And as I develop scenes in the middle, I'll when I know I have two scenes, sorry, the long answer, when I know I have two scenes that are going to stick together, I won't put any asterisks between them. I use, like, three asterisks when I'm floating a scene, and I'll pull the asterisks out when I tie two scenes together, and I know that nothing will go between those scenes, and then they may still be floating somewhere in the in the second or third act, somewhere in the middle of the script. And I just build the whole script that way. When I write the last scene, it's it's almost always a second act seen somewhere in the middle of the script, and I write it, rewrite that scene, and I'm done, because I also rewrite as I go. So then the whole thing only needs to be skimmed for continuity and for proofing errors. That method is a method that I developed on my own and gave a name to because people wanted to know how it was writing. A lot of people who said it sounds crazy, tried it, and they absolutely love it. What it does is it prevents writer's block. If you're if you're writing from the beginning of a script, scene by scene, and you know where you're going. You may have a bunch of things you already know you want to write, but you can't link it up because you get stuck earlier on with volume asset. You never get stuck if you if you don't know what you're going to do next for a second, you just jump ahead and write the next thing you know you're going to put in, even though it may not be connected to what you just wrote. Does that make sense? Oh yeah, it makes sense. And so I've had, I've had several pros, you know, one guy 18 produced movies, another guy 20 produced movies, another guy six produced movies. They've actually all used it. Come back and said, My God, this method is wonderful. I don't know. I don't know why. I haven't, you know, used this before. I never thought of it. I've never seen it before. David Silverman, who is the creator of the wild Thornberry, actually just recommended and endorsed this method and said it was genius. So that's kind of nice that. The interesting thing is, I haven't had anybody give it an honest try after understanding the method, which I describe in my in my upcoming book, I haven't had anybody give it an honest try and say that it didn't work for them. I've had a number of people who've refused to try it. You know, geez, that's scary. I can't imagine it, but I've never had anybody who actually sat down and gave it. A good try, who didn't benefit from it. So then that just developed again from learning to write my own way. I didn't go to film school, I didn't go to I wasn't a film major, I wasn't a screenwriting major. I don't have an MFA in Screenwriting. I just did it on my own. And it works for me. It works for a lot of other people, and interestingly, it works for people who outline and for people who don't outline. Because all of the writers that I just mentioned with 20 and 18 and six movies and THORNBERRY crater, they all outline extensively. One of them is just an absolutely encyclopedic Outliner, and the method still worked for him, so just kind of made sense to me, and I started writing that way.

Dave Bullis 35:52
You mentioned, you know, beating writer's block, you know, I think that is, you know, it's something that I've dealt with too, Mike, is I first I thought it was writer's block, and I realized, you know what I think it was, was decision fatigue. And what I mean by that is, you know, you start your screenplay from the beginning. So here we are, you know, act one, page one, and, you know, we start to

Mike Bierman 36:13
Sort of write this, the dangerous and deadly, scary, blank white page,

Dave Bullis 36:21
Fade in interior but, but, you know,

Mike Bierman 36:24
It was a dark and stormy night. Oh, damn, I'm stuck.

Dave Bullis 36:27
It's kind of like that movie throw mama from the train. Billy Crystal keeps writing the same sentence. He can't figure out where to go next, and, and so, you know, and it's basically, you know, decision fatigue, where you realize, oh, my God, this screenplay could go in like, 10,000 different directions. And there was actually a book I was reading about this, the same sort of, like, you know, principle of, you know, decision fatigue, and, you know, we're, you know, obviously it could go in 10,000 different directions. And his argument was, if you actually, you know, go back to the theme and the and the the whole, you know, the main tension and everything of your screenplay, there really, probably isn't 10,000 ways you could go, really, it has to all tie in together. So that way, you know, Scene one, you know, we're not, you know, we're on an island. And then Scene two, you know, all these other different things are happening that have never been established. If you get what I'm trying to say?

Mike Bierman 37:21
I do, and what the the decision fatigue problem that that you've labeled and that you've designated is a very common problem in the BAM bath. And what I just said, you can see immediately how that prevents it from happening. If you know the end, you know where you're going. So by definition, every single scene you write is going to do one of three things. It's either going to develop character, or it gets thrown out, or it's going to advance the plot, or it gets thrown out. Or the holy grail of a scene is it? It develops character, reveals character, deepens character, and advances the plot. That's what you should aim for in every single scene. If you write a scene that doesn't do any of those things, throw it out. Kill your you know, kill your baby, because it's not getting you to where you need to be, and because budgets are determined by page count, and whether your screenplay is picked up and produced or not, may very well depend on what your page count is. If you can tell story A in 90 pages, or you can tell story A in 110 and you can't get it down from 110 story A 90 pages is much more likely to get made than 110 because line producers and people who determine how much a movie is going to cost to make, they will assign depending on genre, style, a bunch of setting, you know, costume requirements, things like that, locations. They'll figure out special effects, CGI goes on and on. They'll figure out a per cost page on average of the screenplay. They'll multiply that out, and they'll say, Okay, your spring to make this movie is going to cost us 110 times whatever that page cost is. That's going to end up being a lot higher than what 90 times whatever the page cost is, right? Yeah. So if you can write the same story, tell the same story more efficiently in fewer pages, even if nothing changes. I've rewritten scripts for people. I did a rewrite for creative artists and untitled entertainment package project, and the original script was, I think, Oh, I haven't looked at this in a long time. A couple years ago, the original script was somewhere around I was 112 pages.

Mike Bierman 40:08
And they wanted it to be 100 pages before it went to budgeting. They wanted 100 they didn't want 112 so first thing, one of the first things I was asked to do, was reduce the page count. So when I rewrote the script, not only did I I told them, I said, I think I can hit 100 pages. They said, that would be great. That's what we had in mind. We'd love that. So I actually hit 99 and a half pages, which is 100 pages. Okay, you know, 99 go to the hundreds, page halfway down. So I hit the goal. But not only did I do that, I filled five major plot holes, and I added a whole new story arc. So I was able to make the story more complex, more complete, get rid of problems, and still knock 12 pages out of the out of the thing. And so that's a successful rewrite, and they were, they were very happy with it. So I kind of forgot how we got here. But this is, again, why you have a goal post in mind. You don't wander off and get lost. Now see how I found I found my way again, if you know the end, everything that you write is going to be advancing your characters, your plot, moving all of the things you've created toward that end. If you know where you're going, you don't stumble and get lost. You always move toward that goal post. There are going to be a lot of choices on the way that you're going to have to make, but those choices are now narrowed and focused by the fact that you know where you're going. A lot of people who overwrite, don't have an ending in mind, and they'll wander this way and that way, and they'll end up having, you know, five or eight or 10 scenes that don't contribute to where they eventually end up. And I, you know, it happens all the time. I read somebody wrote a comment yesterday, gee, I just finished my screenplay, and I hate it. I hate my own screenplay. It's not what I set out to write. I don't know how I got here. I don't like the ending, I don't like the story, and it's not what I intended. So now I've got to do a page one rewrite. That's because you didn't know where you were going.

Dave Bullis 42:20
Yeah, you know, one piece of advice years ago that I heard from the writer of Fight Club, Chuck palnock. He actually terrific writer. Yeah, he's phenomenal. He gave me the advice that he's like, right, right. You're beginning. He goes, literally. He goes, right, you know, whatever opening, what do you want to do? And then he said, Go to the go to your last page, whatever that might be. And he goes, just right the end. And he said, what you're going to do is because it's going to feel complete if you do do it this way. He said, Then right. So that way again, like you just said, it was a goal, and that's what he also told me a couple years ago, was it's a goal, and that way you know, at least you know what you're going towards, and that way you're right.

Mike Bierman 42:59
So he has a similar that I didn't know he said that, but he has a similar philosophy to what I do, and it sounds like he starts off writing the same way. And by the way, you should note, I do that whether my screenplay is linear or non linear, it doesn't matter. I write the screenplay non linearly, even if it's going to be a linear form. So let's say it's a straight three act. You know, first, second act break, you know, page 23 what you know if it's going to be a straight three act screenplay, and it has a linear plot, without flashbacks, without jumping around, nothing fancy, just a simple, straight story, and that could be anything from a family film to a military film. You know, you can do anything that way. The subject matter doesn't matter. It's just how you choose to write it. Time wise, you you can use my form, and I do use the form to write linear screenplays. I just don't write them in order. I write the whole screenplay out of order. But when you end up reading the screenplay, it's in order. And it also works for non linear methods. If you're writing something like fight clubs, non linear if you're writing something that jumps around and you have an unreliable narrator, and he may or may not be crazy, and he may or may not be who you even think he is. You can still use that method and jump all over the place and write the screenplay that's going to be non linear, and write it in a non linear fashion, which sounds very chaotic, but actually makes sense when you're doing it. So if you, as I always say, if you know where you're going and you know where you're coming from, you have a nice, defined world that you're working within, you're not going to start writing, you know, crazy stuff about Mars in your story about, you know, the kids starting school in New school district because the parents got divorced. You know, all of. Sudden, you're writing about Martians on Mars, right? And you're having a space shoot out because you had no idea where you were going with your screenplay. And I've actually seen crazy stuff like that. I'm sure you have to people end up with like, three different stories in one screenplay. They get horribly lost, and then they get right back to writer's block. Oh, I, you know, I don't know what to write next, yeah, because you jacked the whole thing up, you got yourself in a jackpot, you've written yourself into a corner, and nobody would know what to write next, because none of it makes any sense. So, you know, learn a writing method and stick to it. Like I said, my method works for me. It's worked for for everyone I know that's tried to do has gotten back to me on it, but you need to learn to write in a consistent method that works for you, however you write, and stick to that, develop that method and make it work for you. Chuck has his own method that's apparently similar to mine, and I think it's a very smart method. It's funny. I admire that writer. Maybe that's why I like him so much, because we write in a similar convention, I don't know.

Dave Bullis 46:09
Yeah, you know, great minds think alike, right?

Mike Bierman 46:11
So well, that's what, that's what they say, you know,

Dave Bullis 46:15
Because, you know, just to continue with what you were just saying about, you know, no, no writer could fix, you know, a screenplay that has all those problems, because, you know, there's no goal. There's no sort of central narrative to, you know, I remember when I read a screenplay years ago, and it was this, this guy had this idea for the this, like, anthology, I'm sorry, a horror movie trilogy. And I read the first part of it, the first screenplay. I read all 100 and some odd pages, and literally, it was about these two vampires who live in, like, this old mansion or something that has all these catacombs underneath it. And it's just about like, it's almost like we haven't seen that one before. And it's just all these different people, like groups of people go in there and they're getting killed. There's no There's no goal, there's nothing.

Mike Bierman 47:02
There's no story. Exactly, I'm hearing a lot of reports of this from screenplay contest. Screenwriting contest judges that they're seeing a lot of screenplays that have essentially no purpose. There's no story being told, you know, okay, I get it. It's slasher genre, and we're going to see a whole bunch of blood, a whole bunch of people killed, and then all of a sudden we decide that's enough, and we stop the movie. But it never tells a story that's that's not, that's not screenwriting, that's just dribbling out garbage. And this is what happens when you have an unfocused person writing that doesn't know why they're writing or where they're going. You end up with something like that. You know, a lot of writer's block also jumping quickly back to that, because it ties in. Here is if you have problems in your in your opening, in your first act, and the first act is unfocused, not set up, right? Not structured, right? You really don't have any idea why you're writing, and that'll be very apparent to the reader very quickly, by the way, you don't know why you're sitting down and writing to tell this story. That is going to cause you massive writer's block, because if the first act is is poorly structured and poorly set up everything that comes after, it's like dominoes. It's like Jenga or Jack straws, or any of these things. If you, if you set the foundation badly, there's no way the House will stand. I even have a post written on this and write about making an analogy to, you know, building a house. You know, don't build a house on sand. Okay, build it on rock. I have a whole, a whole essay on this, and that's it's all about first act structure and knowing what you're doing in the first act, because that sets up the entire story, doesn't it?

Dave Bullis 49:00
Yeah, it really does, like they say, if you have like, second or third act problems, you have first act problems really correct?

Mike Bierman 49:06
And again, most of those problems can be solved by knowing the beginning and the ending right when you start. But David Silverman, I just mentioned, the wild thornberry creator, wrote a very gracious and he wrote a recommendation for my book that'll be on the front, inside or back cover. I don't where it's going. There a bunch of recommendations to fit. And he said that, using this particular method, you end up with a much twistier, surprising plot with all kinds of fresh takes on things that isn't stale, that may even surprise the writer by writing using a different method. You end up with something that may even surprise you. It doesn't surprise you in the truth of the beginning and the end, but how you get there can vary, as I said, and so you may discover some ingenious twists and things along the way, but you always know where you're going. So there are a bunch of different ways to tell the story, and the details may vary of what is going in the story, the different moral lessons and the different challenges that characters face, the internal and external challenges. You know, no stories. No story works if the protagonist is perfect, okay, we work with flawed characters, and some of the best stories are told from the most damaged, flawed characters, and the story as they get the external challenges. You look at how their character, their internal character, reacts to that, and you see the characters character arc, which can be, you know, learning, improvement, change, changes the mechanism that drives the character arc. Or you can have, you know, some characters will go through some things in a sociopathic characters, other damaged characters, and they may actually not have a character arc. The Sicario, which I really like, evokes strong reaction. Some people don't like the film because they think Emily Blunt's character, the agent, the FBI agent she plays, doesn't have a character arc. I argue that she does have a character arc, without getting too far into spoiler, she's completely by the book, and incorruptible at first, and then at the end, when faced with her own death, because she's going to go forward and reveal, by the book, reveal all the criminal and sketchy things that were done that Josh Brolin character, very much the CIA guy, wants her to say everything went by the book, to cover up all the things they did in the end to save herself. She falsifies a document to save her own life. So my argument has always been, she does have a character arc. She changes from the incorruptible, you know, perfect, if you will, agent, the idealized agent. And she changes to somebody who, to save herself, falsifies a report of what happened so but anyway, you know, you start with with damaged characters, and you move them through the story, and that's that's the story arc. That's why we're entertained, is because we get to see change in a character. If you have a character that you know is waterproof and bulletproof and you know nothing ever happens to them, which I've always felt was a big danger with Superman, by the way, you know that's why there's kryptonite, right? Yeah? Because if he has no faults, he has no weakness. What are we going to do for a story you develop the the ultimate badass, Marvel, superhero that can't be touched, that nothing can ever happen to them, like the Silver Surfer, there's, there's really not a whole lot you can do with that character, and that's why the surfer had limited appearances and things you look at somebody like Deadpool, who's in a very, very damaged character, who may or may not be even be sane, and Marvel. Finally, you know, Ryan Reynolds fought 10 years to make Deadpool, and they insisted on, you know, the script being genuine, to to the source material. And Marvel was very worried, because, you know, totally not PC, and it's dirty and filthy, and he curses, and he has sex, and he does all kinds of bad things that heroes shouldn't do, and that makes him fascinating, and that's why Deadpool killed it at the box office. I honestly believe it was. It was probably my favorite movie of the year. It's probably not going to win any Oscars, maybe special effects. Who knows? But entertainment wise, you know, I thought it was. I thought it was a terrific film, because you had such a flawed character, and it was just so entertaining to watch him go through all that.

Dave Bullis 54:27
So yeah, and I also agree, Mike, that the reason I liked it was because it was so different than all the other superhero movies that are coming out. Obviously, you know, it didn't take itself too seriously. It was completely different. It was a complete 180 from all the other superhero movies that were coming out. And it just, I think that's why I enjoyed it so much.

Mike Bierman 54:47
Yeah, he break, they break the fourth wall the time, you know, he turns and looks at the camera and goes, you know, you know, Gee, what a superhero really do this. And, you know, there's a fourth wall break within a fourth wall break. And they, they constantly. The pull the audience in. And those are things. Those are things that were pretty much, although, you know, even in Greek theater and Roman theater, those are things the aside, where the actor turns and talks to the audience, okay, those are things that have always been in storytelling, in modern screenwriting. They were pioneered by Shane Black, of course, with the with the Shane Black isms, you know, one of the most famous being, you know, he's describing a mansion. And he, I'm paraphrasing, I remember exactly, but he'll say, you know, he's describing the place. And he stops. He says, No, look, guys, basically, and he's writing like this in the script. Look, guys, basically, this is exactly the kind of place that you would buy. If you hit the lottery and you had millions and millions of dollars and you wanted to throw great parties for all your friends. This is, this is the shit you would buy. And he puts that in the script. So Deadpool did much the same kind of thing. You know, when I sat through the opening of Deadpool by the time they finished writing the credits, you know, calling the director an overpaid tool and and the writers, you know, the real heroes General, I was fully satisfied with the price I paid for the movie just getting through the opening credits, yeah.

Dave Bullis 56:15
Also, Mike, you mentioned Shane Black. I saw that you actually were able to meet Shane Black was that at a writers conference

Mike Bierman 56:22
That was at Austin Film Festival. So I had a script called needles, which is an allegorical, diabolical, diabolical thriller that I found myself talking about a lot because people are curious about it. And that's how I went to Austin. I wasn't going to go. And the director of Austin, Matt mad D called me, I think, a couple times, convincing me to go because apparently my script was going to finish pretty high. Frank Darabont, Director, Shawshank, redemption, Walking Dead, creator, and, you know, bunch of other stuff. He picked needles, top 10. Of course, I didn't know this at the time, but he picked it top 10 scripts for the science fiction award and top 10 scripts for the horror prize out of 8627 scripts. So when you do really well at some of these film festivals like Austin, I made the the top group where I got to have, you know, secret meetings in special places with great people that nobody else could go to. And those meetings often had, you know, 20, 30, 40, people. That's it from the whole film festival. Whereas people who wrote scripts that did decently but finished lower, they'd be in a room full of, you know, hundreds of people. And so I ended up in a room, a very small room size of a small dining room, maybe a little bigger, with Shane Black and and a whole bunch of high finishers. And he was taking questions. So everybody was kind of shy. And I think I asked the first question. I'm not sure. I jumped up and I asked him about something about working with Robert Downey Jr and Val Kilmer. Their methods are very different, and what was going on in in Robert Downey Jr's life, which I won't rehash here at the time, and, you know, got to ask him one on one questions right there, which I think they actually put on a podcast or on the radio, which is kind of cool, but he had actually auditioned my daughter for a film, and her audition went straight to him, and he really liked her. And we went back and forth on a couple roles on that. Ultimately, we didn't, we didn't finish one of the auditions we chose not to do. But I was a terrific guy, very, very generous guy with his with his time, and just extremely gracious to other writers. So I got some great pictures with him. I can prove it happened.

Dave Bullis 59:03
Well, that's how I actually saw it, too. I saw you met him when you were on John Fallon's podcast. I actually saw that's one of the the photos he he added was you and Shane Black. And I wanted to make sure I asked you that Mike, because Shane Black is, I don't think there's a screenwriter alive right now who hasn't, who doesn't envy, or, you know, look at Shane Black as sort of like a guidance in one way or another.

Mike Bierman 59:28
Well, I mean, he's, you know, he's, he's a pioneer. He's a guy that did something that, you know, in modern times, in screenwriting Nobody had done. And he did it with, he did it with Dash and bravado, and he nailed it. So he he's a guy much to be admired. You know, I also met Terry Rossio, who was just absolutely incredible guy, and he was very, very funny. We were standing outside in front of the hotel, and I, I asked him for I asked if I could get a picture. And you know, a lot of people walking by him had no idea who he was, and so he went walking by me, and my, you know, ears pricked up, and I said, Holy smokes. There he goes. And so I went out, politely introduced myself, and he said, he said to I don't know if it was his driver or somebody that was hanging out with him, he said, he said, I like this guy. Let's take about a dozen pictures. And he turns to me, he starts to direct to see he says, Okay, we're just a couple guys hanging out talking here. There's a There's a strange accident or happening in the distance, and all kinds of weird stuff is going on. So we start acting like we're watching this. Of course, he was much better at it than I was, and I got like, a dozen pictures of us making stupid faces and kind of grabbing on to each other and going ooh and on. He's just hilarious and just a terrific guy. And I met the uh, John Lee Hancock and I met with the blind side I wrote. I met Andrew Kevin Walker, who that was great to meet him. Yes in the game, and yeah, and those are a couple of my favorite movies. So you know, the evolution of seven. Any, anyone who aspires to be a screenwriter really needs to read the story of seven and what he went through, you know, as a tower record, Tower Records clerk, trying to get anybody interested in this thing. He finally gets an agent on the phone, starts talking as fast as he can and spitting stuff out. And the agent doesn't hang up on him, actually, is interested, starts asking questions, agrees to read the script, and then boom, all of a sudden, it takes off from there. But you know, all the time to get to that lucky break, and then, you know, director after director had him rewrite the script. The original script had the head in the box ending, which was, you know, shocking to the studios, absolutely amazing ending. And, you know, Oh, that's too much. We need to rewrite it. So they kept having him rewrite the script. And then that director would go off the project. The next guy would come in, oh, I love this project. Let's rewrite the script. So they kept doing that. And then finally, David Fincher came in, and apparently I read an interview recently, I wasn't clear on how this happened. Apparently, Andrew Kevin Walker sent him the wrong script. He sent him the earliest, the first version with the head in the box and Fincher loved it, and they went together and fought with the producers in the studio to get it made. And my understanding, if I recall, is Morgan Freeman is actually the reason why the movie got made the way it did. Because at some point Morgan Freeman came forward and said, Look, if you don't make it with that ending with the head in a box, I'm gone, I'm walking. And so that did it. But I got to meet him. I got to meet his brother. They were very nice, and I just heard him talk, and I waited around. And, you know, these people are normal people. I mean, they're not, they're not gods, and people idealize them. And I know who that guy is. I know his name. I've seen that actor on TV. Well, when you really need them, they're just regular people. Some of them act like they're not regular people. Some of them act like regular people. Most of them want to be treated like anybody else. They don't want to be, you know, they've had enough of that. Some of them aren't that way. You know, some of them have huge egos. A lot of them just want to be left alone and treated like anybody else. So I waited in a very short line because people were afraid to approach him, and went up and got to talk with him for, you know, wasn't long, maybe five minutes, but got pictures with him too. And so, so like, is there? What's the what's the saying? The essay we have Fortune favors the bowls, right?

Dave Bullis 1:04:00
Yeah, it, yeah, there's also, uh, what's the SAS saying?

Mike Bierman 1:04:07
Yeah, that's what I was going for. The SAS. I don't remember if it's Fortune favors the bold, it's something like that, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:04:13
I forget what that actually is, but I think of it. It's very similar to that. I there. But is there any screenwriters you haven't met yet, Mike, that you really wanted to meet?

Mike Bierman 1:04:24
Oh, I mean, I suppose there are a lot of though, there are a lot of great there are a lot of great writers and a lot of great screenplays out there. I mean, my my favorites, just, you know, like you Shane Black and Andrew Kevin Walker, Terry Ross young. I mean, it's just amazing to meet them all in one trip. Just, just amazing. But, you know, I don't know if I really have an answer to that. One of the, one of the shocking movies for me, of the year that didn't get a lot of press and play. It was fences. I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah. Yeah, the acting is terrific. The dialog is wonderful. It's just, it's a beautifully made film. It's a very simple film, but the acting, the quality of the acting, and the writing the dialog, will just draw you in. I couldn't turn the damn thing off. I sat down and started watching. I had places to go, people to see, had things to do. I had no intention of watching the movie. And, I mean, I sat there with my jaw dropped. Found out I've been standing there 15 minutes with the rope my hand watching this thing. You know, my daughter got it as a SAG screener and came in. And that's probably, I would say, that's probably acting wise and script wise. Probably the best film I've seen this year. I don't know what it's going to do with the Oscars. I suspect Denzel Washington will probably win a Best Actor. Viola Davis certainly should be in the running for best actors. I know that she had enough screen time for it, but Denzel certainly she went and you know that movie, as I said, with Deadpool, with the opening, that movie is worth the price of admission. If you only watch the first scene where Denzel Washington is talking about death the scene is so mind blowingly great that the whole movie is worth watching just for that one scene. And you know, it doesn't stop there. So I can't really say, you know, any one particular writer, a number of the writers that I'd like to meet are dead. So, you know, it's kind of a, kind of a bummer.

Dave Bullis 1:06:38
But as we're talking about, you know, fences, I thought it was phenomenal as well. I think, you know, Denzel stole the show in that movie. You know, he just plays that charismatic, tragic hero, obviously, because there's a lot of regret in that man's life and that character's life. And, you know, as he's sort of talking to everybody, everybody, in one way or another, sees him at his best, sees him at his worst, and sort of, you know, at one way or another, also at the butt end of his worst. And you know, his son, he talks with one son that one way, his other son, you know, he constantly wants more from him, and he's he doesn't go about it the right way. And, you know, it's just a phenomenal movie,

Mike Bierman 1:07:21
Yeah, because he wants to, you know, he wants to make the changes he couldn't make himself in his own life, in his have his son live those and and also, you know, excel as he did the way he did, because he's getting older, And he sees, you know, his own mortality, which we, we know from talking about death. So he, he, you know, wants to live vicariously through His Son. Also. It's just an absolutely phenomenal movie. I'll probably watch it again when we get off the phone. Wonderful, wonderful film. I don't know if it, if it got enough circulation buzz the box office to to win Oscars. You know, the what the Oscars people pick frequently isn't anything near what I think is the best, and other people agree with that, but that's terrific writing. The dialog is phenomenal.

Dave Bullis 1:08:15
And it's almost a self contained movie, because a lot of it happens in that one house. And you know, I wanted to ask you too, about, about, you know, your screenplay for the grocer that's completely contained self, you know, self contained screenplay, and that 1/3 is the London Film Awards, correct?

Mike Bierman 1:08:31
Yeah, I won. It won 30. It's won a bunch of awards. It just took third in London. It's, it's in the running, and in another contest, it just made another cut. The grocer is completely contained. It's 100% contained. It is one location. The entire screenplay there. There are some movies that try to do that. It's very difficult to do it and carry it off with a with a very entertaining movie, because a one location screenplay is going to be very dialog heavy. It has to be unless, you know, you do something completely avant garde and have a bunch of people sitting in a room watching paint dry or ants crawl around, you know, some experimental thing, you know, I'll erase their head, meets Salvador Dali or something like that, you're going to tend to be dialog. Heavy needles is 97% one location which is a desert saloon, which may or may not be in needles, California, in the Mojave Desert, it's actually purgatory, but appears otherwise, and it has only two other locations that occur as flashbacks. One is a very brief flashback to Golgotha, and it's, I think, a quarter page, and the other flashback is like a Pacific Northwest. Rainy Mountain, Rainy Mountain, winding road and that's it. So, you know, 97% contained grocers. 100% contained. The entire story happens at a grocery store in its parking lot. That's it. One location for the whole thing. And of course, you know you hear all the time, that's what everybody's looking for, is one location. You bring the you bring the cast and crew in, you set the date, you get everything set up, and you never have to move anywhere, right? You look at a movie like spy game, for example, which I love. They have, you know, Hong Kong. They have, you know, settings in Vietnam, Langley, Virginia, China, coastal China. You know, it's a Tony Scott, you know, big Big Bang, big budget, big stars. And it goes all over the world. The Born films do that too. Those are very expensive to make. And a lot of the places where films like that want to film, like the Middle East, these are not stable places where you can just go set up a camera crew. This is covered in Argo, you know, it's no secret, there are a lot of places you can't film, and you have to try and mimic, you know, find another location that works. Then you have to, you know, if you're not filming where they are, you have to build sets that make it look like you're really there and things like that. You know, Bridge of Spies. They had to, had to. They're showing Berlin being divided east and west, the communists and the and the democracy. And they've got the, they've got the wall being built right down the middle of the city. I mean, that's all in an incredibly expensive scene to film. I turned to my wife, you know, I've seen it many times. She hadn't. I turned to her last night. We watched again. I watched it again. She watched it and I said, I said, Imagine the cost of the scene. How many people are there? All the soldiers in uniforms, you know, as far as the eye can see. And she's very, very expensive. Well, a contained screenplay does the exact opposite of that. It minimizes your actors. It minimizes your locations to minimalist, as low as you can get one location. Now that there's even an extreme on contained screenplays. If you look at Ryan Reynolds buried, essentially the whole movie happens with him in a coffin. Mm, hmm. That's, that's as contained as you can get. You're in a coffin. Okay, so, but anyway, that's, that's considered a very desirable thing these days. Hopefully somebody will hear this and ask to read the script and buy one of those, those scripts, I keep having people rave, man, this needs to get made. Well, I agree with you. Let's, let's sell the screen. You know, contact my manager, we can make a deal. But that's that's also a smart way to start off for writers that want to learn to develop character and get kind of befuddled or thrown off by changing locations. They're always posts in my group. You know, what do I do? You know, how do I move the camera? I have a camera, you know, in a bedroom, shooting out the window at stuff happening outside. How do I write that? You know, a lot of people get hung up on all that, and that's all formatting. A lot of people get hung up on that stuff. If you have a single location, you can concentrate much more on character, can't you?

Dave Bullis 1:13:46
Yeah, that's very true. And look like fences.

Mike Bierman 1:13:50
You mentioned fences was a play, okay? And the movie, the movie feels like a play when you watch it, very much. You know Samuel Beckett, theater of the absurd. He has, he had a play that was, I think, half a page or a quarter of a page. He has plays where the entire play there are two people in trash cans talking to each other. You talk about dialog heavy, you talk about illusions. You need to get an encyclopedia out. People said this about needles. You need to get an encyclopedia out to understand everything going on, because it's so deep with illusions. Because, you know, they've got to talk, or it's going to just be two people with their heads sticking out of trash cans. The whole thing, you know, Beckett has somebody buried up to their neck in sand. The whole play is one character buried up to their neck in sand. All you see is their head. That's minimalist, okay? Well, that's what you shoot for. Maybe not that extreme, because it's very hard for something like that to be entertaining. You have to be a master to pull that off. But what you want to do, if you're starting. Out is pick a setting that you don't move from work on developing and deepening and broadening your characters and examining the moral challenges the philosophical ideals they have as they deal with whatever situation you're creating. And go ahead and develop the characters and worry more about that than jumping all around in like a born there's nothing wrong with the porn films. But, you know, jumping around, you know, elevators and trams and planes and going all over the place, concentrated on the character and build and develop the character. There was a there's a play on Broadway called Blackbird and Sundar, see subject matter, say, Cha mall station and stuff like that. But it basically has a Erica was up for role, and as playing, I think, 155 shows at the Belasco theater, was Michelle Williams in Jeff Daniels and and they were gonna make it three, Erica Bierman, and she actually got the preliminary offer on that we were waiting for the final contract to come through, and the director wrote the little tiny part out had he had so they went with a cast of two. The whole play is a cast of two for whatever the length of a full length Broadway play is, and it is a woman grown to I don't need to go into this too much, but basically it's a woman grown to womanhood who was basically a child, young adolescent, when she was entered into a sexual relationship with a guy. It's not like forcible rape, but it's statutory rape. And he and ends up, you know, living his life and having a family in the business, and she actually shows up at his business years later and confronts him. Oh, wow, yeah. And so very, very intense, very dialog driven, character driven, and very contained. You've got something that has more than one location. It does have more than one location, but the vast majority of it is one location. And so that's the kind of thing that for a play or for a film, cuts your costs down dramatically. And that is what has has recently, of late, been in demand. And you hear people screaming all the time, I want contained screenplays. So that's what they're talking about.

Dave Bullis 1:17:29
Yeah, you know, that's something that I try to do as well, Mike, and what, the way I tried to do it was I wrote, I wrote three films, three screenplays at a summer camp. I called him my camp trilogy. And so that way, you know, it's kind of sort of like Friday the 13th, in a way, you know, because always going to be at this camp. We're not really, there's no big set pieces, you know what I mean. And it can be done, you know, where horror is sort of the main character. And you don't have to, you know, go out and get, you know, a list actors. You could just, you know, having that

Mike Bierman 1:17:57
Horror is very profitable. They can be made for not a lot of money. And if you're getting into contains, or where you got very few locations, that should be very desirable material, if it's written, well, should be very marketable. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:18:09
So I've actually pitched a few of them and, well, that's a whole nother story deal together, but, but, you know, but, you know, just going back to buried, you know, I agree, you know, I actually knew what the whole concept was going in. And I always wondered, how are they going to carry this for the whole movie? I was pleasantly surprised at how they carried that movie and adding different things.

Mike Bierman 1:18:28
Well, he's acting, you know, in Dead full, it's full of all kinds of self deprecating humor, of course. And Ryan Reynolds says at 1.0 Ryan Reynolds made it this far in his superior acting method, you know, talking about, he's a good looking guy, okay, well, in in buried, he acted the hell out of it. You know, you're not, you're not the best looking guy in the world with a blue light, a little, you know, low wattage blue light in a coffin. The whole screenplay that was carried by his acting. He killed it. He did a beautiful job acting. So, you know, it needed a strong actor to pull off. You put somebody who's just a pretty face in the box who can't act, and you get a flop, right? Yeah, that's very true. But you know, Ryan Reynolds happens to be a pretty face, and he also can act. And he ended up nailing that. And yes, it was engrossing from beginning to end. Another film that I expected. I watched it for the novelty, which I suspect you did too, knowing what it was going in saying, you know, there's, there's no way they could pull this off. And then found myself being very entertained and watching the whole movie. And that's, that's a great example of a successful contained, almost completely contained. There are some other locations, but not much. I think maybe three locations, the whole thing.

Dave Bullis 1:20:06
yeah, it's just also, I made sure to go out and get the screenplay, because, you know, Scott Myers from going to story.com he was always mentioning it, and I made sure to coach got his posts about it, where he dissected the whole movie. And I was, you know, I was blown away again. You know how they were able to do that? And they always, the way they did it, obviously, is they raised the stakes, you know, constantly adding in new twists and turns. Okay, you know, he has, you know, well, I probably shouldn't go into it because, in case anybody hasn't seen it yet, but, but, you know it was,

Mike Bierman 1:20:36
It's kind of old to worry about spoilers now. But, I mean, yeah, you know, the one thing goes wrong and then the next thing goes wrong. You know, his light starts running out. I mean, you know, it just goes from one thing to the next. And that's what you have to do in a screenplay. You need to keep raising the tension. You know, one of, one of my criticisms of Manchester by the Sea is I just never felt the stakes were that high, and I never it just didn't feel like it was increasing tension. It's a very stately, paced piece. Yeah, Casey Affleck did a fine job acting. So did the others, but I it's not a short movie, and it just moves along at a very, very stately pace. I like the film. It wasn't my favorite film of the year by far. I suspect the Academy will like it has kind of a downer ending for them, but it it's a film that's a good example of one where I didn't feel that they kept raising the stakes. They didn't have sufficient stakes. Now, to give you an idea of what the effect of that is, my wife fell asleep four or five times trying to watch the movie. We got a huge fight because I said, I said, now's the time. Let's watch Manchester. I said, No, I'm not watching that thing, you know, I can't stay awake. I said, None of you, you really will get in, you know, it'll have an interesting emotional impact on you, and you'll, you'll get, you know, very particular feeling, and I want to talk to you about it so, you know, let's, you know, drink some coffee and let's, let's set up and and watch this thing. You know, I've watched it four times. I like it more each time I watch it. And, you know, that's how, one of the ways that I learned to write well is by watching movies. Okay, I don't, it'll probably surprise you, and I do not recommend this for most people. I read very few screenplays by other writers. I don't go read all the Oscar winning screenplays that are pending. I don't do it. I watch the movies and I absorb it that way. Is there? Is there a reason to read the screen? Please, absolutely most screenwriters do, and I strongly recommend that people start out that way. I don't think I've read more than five pro scripts on produce movies. I just don't I just don't read them. I'll watch the movie. There is a reason, if only to see the differences in execution and planning. There's a great reason, you know, looking at the spec or the shooting script, and then what they actually got can be a very rewarding and instructive experience. It's just not something I do that's me personally, which again, shows you that you know there are different ways to do things and still do well and get to the end point where you want to be there. Pro writers. I know that read every single script for Academy Award scripts. They read every single script for every blockbuster that comes out. I don't do that. I would rather write natively without I'm not gonna say copying, but, you know, just my own way. Does that make sense?

Dave Bullis 1:23:59
Yeah, it makes perfect sense, Mike. I you know, I like to, I have a whole collection of screenplays. And, you know, I always find that my favorite person to write screenplays, and my favorite author is Quentin Tarantino. I just love the way he writes. I think it's entertaining. And I also feel, though, that I also can pull from the movie. So if I like, for instance, I have the screenplay for hell or high water, but I actually saw the movie about three days ago before I actually read the screenplay. And I like the movie, you know, just as well. And I will probably, probably end up reading the screenplay as well just to see what the differences are. But I really enjoyed the hell or high water. Have you seen that yet?

Mike Bierman 1:24:40
Yes. And for you know, I, I don't want to say anything bad about Quentin. He has movies that I absolutely love, that are wonderful films, and he's a groundbreaking guy, I will say he overwrites. And you know, if you look at the screenplay for you. Uh, Hateful Eight is, I don't like the film. And, you know, the screenplays 189 pages or somewhere, there abouts, and a lot of people I talk with think he could have cut an hour out of that movie. But he's also written some just, you know, some phenomenal stuff. And, you know, Inglorious Bastards, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction. I mean, it's great stuff. He's another one, though he's an outlier. He's he's very, very smart. He's very gifted. He, you know, he still writes screenplays out long hand in a square deal notebook. Okay, so he's he's a different kind of guy, and he's made his own path. He's not somebody that I would emulate writing, because there aren't there a lot of people that try and they just don't get away with it. They can't pull it off. He's a very difficult guy that to try and copy, not copy, like, rip off, but to try and emulate his style. He's a, he's a really difficult guy to do that on. You know, there are, it'd be like, it'd be like, trying to write poetry like EE Cummings. You know, me up. It does out of the floor quietly stare a poison mouse, and now I lose it. Who asks, you know, what have I done? You wouldn't have Okay, all in lower case, no punctuation. Cormac McCarthy, same thing. Go read James Joyce, you know, go read one of the Cormac McCarthy books. Where's the punctuation? Did the printer lose all the periods of garbage? And you know, there isn't any. So why can he do that? Well, he blazed his own way, and he's phenomenal. Okay, so you know, do you want to go be the next correlate McCarthy and go turn a book into your publisher that has no punctuation marks? Probably not a good idea. It's just like copying Shane Black. There's a conversation in my screenwriting group brought up by a pro today this morning about how a producer wanted him to add back a bunch of unstable commentary into the script that didn't have any Well, traditional wisdom says, and I wrote a post going my book on Sally Bigfoot. I write this big scenario about Sally Bigfoot and her family. Okay, about unshootable garbage in somebody's head that you can read on the page, and then what ends up there? So I write this big, long thing about Sally Bigfoot. It's like a page and a half long, and then what somebody could actually shoot from that script is, like five words, one line long, because none of the rest is shootable. Okay, well, there was just this conversation that, strangely, a producer was asking this professional, multi produced guy, novelist. I'm not, I'm not going to name him here now, for certain reasons, but this, this guy has multiple films out, and he turned in a nice, tight, lean script. He's an action writer, and the producer said, you know, this is crap. What are you giving me? I'm not saying. He said, It's crap. Okay? He said, I'm not happy with this. What are you doing here? I want a bunch of commentary and other stuff, you know, built around here. And he said, Well, you can't film any of that. He said, Yeah, that's great. That's the exact opposite of traditional wisdom. Okay, you think asked to write stuff into the script to make it longer, to entertain the reader and to try and get a particular a list actor, I can't mention who they think they can lure in with this particular technique by writing a bunch of stuff that they will never be able to film, they will not change the film script one bit, but that they want in there. Now the producer is the boss. If your producer tells you to do that, then you do it. And that's the right answer for that project. This is why Rules are made to be broken. Quentin Tarantino broke the rules. Shane Black broke the rules. Cormac McCarthy broke the rules. Ee Cummings broke the rules. James Joyce broke the rules. There's a guy. There's a guy, I can't remember his name, which is sad name, who wrote a novel. It's also in my book called Gadsby. I think it's called. And this writer, sadly, again, I can't remember his name, but he wrote an entire novel, 50,000 words, without using the letter E in the whole book.

Dave Bullis 1:29:29
So it's not the Great Gatsby, just Gatsby.

Mike Bierman 1:29:32
No, it's Gadsby. It's like Gatsby. So he managed to write, he managed to write an entire novel without using the letter E in any word inside the covers. It appears on the cover as they describe what he's done. Because if you use the word novel, it is an E, obviously. So now, when they say, Oh, this guy wrote a novel without the letter E, well then you've used several E's, haven't you on the cover. But if you go to the actual story itself inside, nowhere does the letter E appear. Now you talk about writer's block, and that's why, that's what my essay was about. Next time you think you have writer's block, I've written a number of these, you know, look at what Lucretius wrote, de rare, I'm not sure on the nature of things. This epic poem that this guy wrote, you know, in a toga in a cave with a candle, using squid ink in a feather pen, and the type of Einsteinian physics and philosophy, you know, the incredible deep thinking this guy did under these conditions. You know, Abraham Lincoln studied law by candle. Okay, that's, that's, that's tough, okay, though, this guy did it, you know, in like 54 BC, writing in squid ink. And he's talking about where the universe ends. I mean, really, so you want to, you want to talk about writer's block and do something that's that's a remarkable achievement, but certainly less than than that. Look at at this Gadsby Gadsby book, and again, it's going to be in my book, but the guy writes a whole novel without the letter E. So next time you think you have writer's block, imagine writing a novel without using one of the letters of the alphabet, a vowel, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:31:26
And I want to link to that in the show notes as well. Actually, I'm gonna about that, about that novel too, Mike, because that is,

Mike Bierman 1:31:34
I don't know. I'll get you the info on him.

Dave Bullis 1:31:37
Well, I was gonna look it up too when I put it in the show notes, because I, you know, I, I don't know if that, if that's an exercise in bravery or or it just admit complete madness, maybe, maybe both, right?

Mike Bierman 1:31:49
But I think it's the next. It's brave and it's also stubborn. I mean, you've got to be, let me see if I can find it for you. You've got to be mentally tough to you. It's Gadsby, G, A, D, S, B, Y, 1939, by Ernest Vincent Wright, with, W, R, I, G, H, T. Now the sad thing is, you know, nobody remembers this guy's name. Ernest Vincent Wright, so did he take a gamble? You bet he did. He turned a novel into his publisher with no ease in it. That's a gamble, okay? And did his gamble pay off? I don't know what's a payoff. His book got published. You can still read the book today. You can it's a novelty item. You can go look it up and say, Holy smokes. How'd this guy do this? And go skim the text, and he doesn't read like a traditional book, because he can't use the word E. He's got to write very strange, circuitous routes to avoid using ease. Was he a success? I don't know. I couldn't remember his name, and I'm a writer. His family didn't renew his copyright, really? Oh yeah. I mean that none of his heirs after he died, none of his copyright ran, none of his heirs cared enough to to pay the copyright fees, to re copyright, re up the novel Jesus, I know.

Dave Bullis 1:33:21
So that's amazing, you know, you know, we were talking about copyright stuff. And you know, one of the things that you mentioned, too, in the group, you know, as we talk about copywriting, was about, you know, about the WGA, and also about, you know, the US Patent Office, the copyright office. And, I mean, you know, all of that is, is really good stuff. And when I hear stuff like this happening, because when I hear stuff like this happen, or where I hear stuff like, you know what happened with George Romero and the original night living dead? I mean, you realize just how important all this stuff is,

Mike Bierman 1:33:56
Yeah, and that's another thing most you know my book will help with that. Shamelessly plug in the book yet again. But I mean, the I, I'm involved in the project where they had, they had some issues because somebody tried to steal the project. There are other in my in a year or so, in my group, there have been, I used to have them written down something like between nine and a dozen stolen scripts where people have actually come in and said, you know, my script got stolen and actually had some kind of substantial evidence in, in, in significant data and story behind it. Not just like, oh, I wrote a script and, Oh, damn, that Star Wars, they stole my script. No, nothing like that. Like actual matching dialog. And I've had it happen. I've had it happen to me. I won't say who I had another writer take some stuff from one of my scripts. And there are, you know, in a group of less than 3000 people. And. Well, it wasn't 3000 the whole time the group started at one me, it's not advertised. I reject about 90% of applicants. But in that small group, in one year, we've got somewhere approaching a dozen stolen scripts where people someone ripped off somebody else's work. And there are trolls that go in these groups. That's why I've had people very careful about this. They're trolls that go in groups and they'll say, you know, producer looking for, for someone to write our story, and, you know, we need you to submit 10 pages. Well, what they do is, you know, and then we'll, we'll judge, and we'll pick who's going to get the writing assignment. Well, Dave, who gets the writing assignment? Tell me, no one gets the running they assign the 10 pages that say it's 100 page screenplay. So that's 1010, page divisions. They assign it to 20 writers. So they have, they put up an ad in the group for you know, no money. This is your you have to prove to us who you are. You're going to write 10 pages. We'll tell you what to write, and then we'll get back to you, if we like it. Well, keep holding your breath. We'll call you blue boy. You'll be in the corner turning blue because they're never going to call you no matter how good you were. Because what's going to happen they don't have any money, and what's going to happen is they're not really looking to hire a writer. They're looking to steal writing. So they give each they give 1010, scenes. They want written, 10 pages. Kind of a simplistic example, but I'm making it easy for the math. 100 page script, they divided into 10 segments, however many scenes, each scripts, typically 6080, scenes. But let's stick with this example. So, you know, you're going to write these 10 pages for us, and they give that same pages to two, the same 10 pages to two writers. Then they take the next, you know, 11 to 20, and they give that to two more writers. And they do the same thing all the way down the line. So they have 20 writers writing their 100 page script twice. So the what they then do is they then pick through it all. They pick what they like, what they don't like, they throw it all together, and they have, maybe even that guy, rewrite the whole thing, the whole script sitting there, written form, they just rewrite it. Pick what they like, pick, well, that was a dick. I had a great idea. Well, you know, we'll keep that. We're screwing him so, haha. Why not keep it? And then they get the whole script written form that only needs a rewrite, and they pay nothing. And, you know, these people aren't scrupulous. This happens all the time in writing groups. You know, send me a writing sample. Send me, Send me, you know, 10 pages of my original script. Here's the story. You give me the first 10 pages. So, you know, those are, those are all pitfalls, not copywriting. You want to register with WGA, you got an extra 20 bucks. Sure, register with WGA. Is your script copyright protected? Absolutely not. WGA serves a lot of good functions. The script registry is, does not take the place of copyright. It's, it's, it's, it works as some evidence of when something was created, not a copyright. Don't even get into federal court with a WGA registration on a copyright case. So, you know, beginning writers need to learn that kind of stuff. And a lot of it's counterintuitive. A lot of it, you know, people aren't going to tell you. They don't know there's a lot of terrible information. I'll do it here. I'll kill the poor man's copyright. For you, poor man's copyright, write your script, fold it up, seal it up really well, in an envelope, and mail it to yourself, and there. Now you're, you're protected, right? No, absolutely not. There's nothing. It's never protected anybody in any court that I can I can name, or that anyone I know can name it's absolutely worthless, and yet this myth of the poor man's copyright persists. These are things that you need to learn. And books like, you know, David Trottier, Dave Trottier, screenwriters Bible and others, will address some of this stuff for you. So you think you're going to be a screenwriter. Spend 20 bucks. Buy a book, read it. Yeah, learn something, yeah. And I get into arguments. I get into arguments of people in my group. I'm a I'm a lawyer, and they want to argue with me about the law. They tell me I'm wrong. I had somebody do it a couple days ago. She was She was somebody asked a question that ran into legal territory and didn't ask it to me. Just threw it up in the group. And I'm not this person's lawyer, but you know, I can give throughout general legal advice to writers and stuff. So I answered the question, and she's like contradicting my answer with the complete wrong answer.

Mike Bierman 1:40:03
So I tried to gently guide her back. And no, no, no, look at it. It's really this way. And she told me I was wrong. So you know, you really writers need to have a basic understanding of certain things just to survive and be viable. The writing is a strange occupation. You have to be able to actually write stuff. But then there's the business end of writing, which is completely different from the creation end of writing. And again, like David Trotter's book and, you know, other books, they actually will talk about both and Linda Aaron since book talks talks about, you know, completely story, story Theory and Structure and plotting. That's the whole book. Genius, genius. But Rick toskins book talks about playwriting seminars too. He talks a lot about the business. Is very practical guide. He analyzes plays. He bridges the gap between playwriting and screenwriting, and then he talks about the business of, you know, okay, you're sitting in your in your room, over your garage in Kennesaw, Georgia, churning out this stuff, isn't it great? Oh, you love it. And what are you going to do with it? No one's ever going to read it if it doesn't leave the garage, right? Yeah, very true. So there's a business end, and if you're, let's say you're an idiot savant. Let's say you're, you know, a beautiful mind. You're this gifted mathematician, or no, if this guy was in a cave in Afghanistan scribbling the most brilliant mathematics anyone had ever seen all over the cave walls using, you know, burnt bone, and scratching with a bone, and, you know, highlighting with it, with a piece of ashed out stick and a little blood dot here and there. No one's ever going to see it, right? So the most brilliant mathematician in the world, no one knows who he is. He ends up, you know, he he demises. And then, you know, 3000 years later, someone finds his cave art and recognizes his high level mathematics, which is wonderful. And you know, everyone else, all the uninformed, think it's cave art. You know, look at this. Let's add some, let's add some fags to this, right, modifying the formulas. Okay? So you know there's a business end of this too, unless you're going to be a pure hobbyist and just write this stuff for for your wife or your spouse, your grandma, your dad, your mom. Oh, look how great this is. Give it to your kids there. There needs to be a goal, and that's the business end. And so like the books, like I said, playwriting seminars, two, 2.0 and the screenwriters guide, the screenwriters Bible, those are books that discuss the business end as well. Okay, books like aaronson's is, you know, focused all on structure and plot and story function, character function, and all those things to an extreme depth, like biblical depth. It's that that in depth, but it really doesn't, there's some in there, but it really doesn't approach the business as much your cut to is showing by TJ Alex, I recommend, I think there's a little business in there too, but that's how I go to that book. So, you know, you need to learn, you need to learn the business stuff too. And that bridge is a nice gap to contest, which you mentioned earlier, right? Yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:43:35
And one thing they want to ask Mike is, have you ever, I mean, I wanted to obviously asked this because, you know, we're talking about books again. Have you ever read any of the big three or four books that sort of come across? You know, everyone sort of comes across them. And those books, obviously, Screenplay by Syd field, save the cat story. Have you read any of those books?

Mike Bierman 1:43:59
Let me be as fair as I can be. I read save the cat. Save the cat is an approach. It's extremely formulaic. You need to know it, because a lot of studio execs will be expecting, you know, save the cat story beats, and they'll go to, you know, page 67 of your script. Page, 12 of your script. Page, you know, 24 of your script, page five of your script, and they're going to be looking for story save the cat. Story beats that. Blake Snyder, by all by all reports, a wonderful guy who died young, it's a shame. Supposed to be a great guy, and he wrote two of the worst movies ever written, you know, blank check or shoot a stop, or my Mom Will Shoot, which could have torpedoed Sylvester Stallone's career. Dodged a bullet on that one. So you know, that book was an analysis done by Snyder. A great deal of time looking at looking for a formula, a common theme, a thread running through the most successful and admired movies. And he distilled it down into a formula, just like a log line formula distills everything down, and you start plugging your stuff in to get a good log line. Well, at some point, not every film has a log line you can write with a standard log line formula, once you understand what you're trying to accomplish, you may want to vary from the formula for a particular project, because you may not be able to capture the log line well in 25 words written, you know, so and so must do this. Or, you know and beat such and such villain, or this will happen, you know, blah, blah, okay, so that may not be the best approach for a movie that you're working on. And so, yeah, I've read save the cat. I think save the cat tends to put writers in a box, and it makes you stick to story beats that people pull their hair out. Oh my god, I added a scene in my my save the cat moment, my dark night of the soul. Moment moved, and now it's, you know, four pages past where it's supposed to be. Oh my god, I jump off the roof. No, tell your story. Tell your story and learn what save the cat is. In case you have somebody that really wants the beats to line up and you're writing for them, well, then maybe you've got to break out save the cat. As far as the other ones, you know, Syd field and all, I've started to read some of them. I find a lot of their stuff. Yes, they're acknowledged experts. Yes, they're much better known than I am. Of course, I'm just a guy. You know, they're famous. Well, a lot of their stuff is very philosophical and kind of hard to put your finger on exactly what they're saying. And how do I apply this to my script? So, you know, I looked at some of the stuff and didn't find it immediately helpful, so I ignored it. I taught myself. And you know, that's that, you know, there are conventions, there are rules, and once you learn them, you can also learn to break them and get away with it if you know what you're doing. And as far as those guys go, some of the most, most well read writers, screenwriters. I know that have read every single one of those books. They can quote you from the books and tell you what page number is on. They've never written a good script. There was, there was one guy in my group who's no longer a member, who's any social guy, threw him out, but that's an aside, and he would you, just incredible knowledge on all these, all these writers theories. And you know all you know McKee and Syd field, and you know every other, every other theoretical, theoretician on storytelling. And by the way, aaronson also is, is big on that, except she wrote a book that's a very practical nuts and bolts guide that is, is it's not all just theory. It's loaded with theory, but it gives you guidelines to actually fix the engine. Okay, they tell you how to build the engine. Tell you what the engine is, and then it'll let you put the engine together. A lot of these guys will say, let's talk about an engine. And you know, before long, you're sitting there in a yoga position, staring out at a little plant growing by itself in the desert, okay? Like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, right? Yeah. So, you know, there's practical and there's impractical, and there's, there are people that write all kinds of great stuff. And I can't, I'm not knocking these, these great, you know, well known philosophical guys like the key and field. I haven't read them. I've skimmed little bits of them and said, You know what? This isn't answering my question. Or this isn't for me, and maybe for you. I'm not saying it isn't for you. It could well be for you. My book isn't going to be for everybody, that's for damn sure. So, you know, find your approach that works and stick to it. But the guy that I was talking about a minute ago, he he bloviated endlessly in the group and everything. Ah, this guy knows everything. Oh, my God. He's the best expert anywhere, and he really did know a lot. It was incredibly impressive. And then one day he came in the group and he said, I've been doing this 20 years, and I've never finished a script. Can you guys help me? I'm not kidding, I could show you the post. So this guy, this guy could quote you chapter and verse from Syd field, McKee, from any, any but you know the the hero's journey, you know all the different theories and story methods of writing, and you. There are a lot of different people that have, you know the 237 steps of the hero and all these other approaches. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those. They may be the best thing ever for you, but they may not work for me. You gotta find what works for you. And so this guy could tell you what anybody wrote about, anything very convincingly. And you know, six months later, you find out the guy has never finished a script.

Dave Bullis 1:50:38
Yeah, that's I wonder. You know, it's almost like a fear of failure to start or something. I mean, then again, 20 years. I mean, wow. I mean, that is just, maybe he just movies got a ton of screenplay started but never actually finished.

Mike Bierman 1:50:54
Or maybe even that's, well, one, one screenplay worked on over 10 years, never finished it. You know, I knocked out. I knocked out a rewrite in five days that was accepted. 99 out of 100 pages were accepted first pass. I got some notes. They said, We want to change a couple things on this one page that may cascade this something else. Can you do that for us? I said, Sure. I rewrote it in about 10 minutes. I spent about 12 hours rereading the script, thinking about everything, making sure that I wasn't setting myself up for a jackpot, a story hole, a continuity error. Couldn't figure out anything that was affected by this in any way, and went ahead and turned it in. And I said, Oh my God, we love it. You're done.

Dave Bullis 1:51:40
You know, I once knew a guy, Mike, he couldn't write 10 pages in three months. And yeah, I and he wanted to be a screenwriter, and I said, You got to turn in three or 10 pages, at least 10 pages. And I gave him three months to do it, and because each month I would check back in, because that's what you had to do to join the one writers group was that you had to actually have written something. And I said, just show us something. I said, Write 10 pages. And the first month, I didn't do it, my wife, my wife and I, every excuse in the world. You got it. And in a second month, another excuse. Third Month. And finally, I said, you know, I don't think your heart is into this. I think your brain is. I think you want that, that notoriety and the women a writer

Mike Bierman 1:52:26
Exactly. And I have a whole post on this. I have a whole post on, you know, staring at the blank page and being able to to put anything fucking commit, write something. You're not a writer if you don't write. So I have a whole essay on this that people found very useful, and with seven or eight different bullet points about what, what is really going to happen in your life, what is going to go wrong if you write a piece of shit? What is really going to happen to you if you sit there and you hack away at your keyboard and you write up just a piece of road kill that a dog wouldn't eat. Guess what? Nothing happens. You can rewrite it. You could start over three years later, after you've written two good ones, you'll laugh at your first one, and maybe you'll have ideas to go back and fix it. But that fear of writing, I like I said, I wrote a whole essay on this. It was very well received. It'd be in the book. Fear of writing. If you don't put it down on the page, the one thing I guarantee you is you will never get anywhere. If you don't actually commit to write, you will never accomplish anything.

Dave Bullis 1:53:36
Mike, that is so true. And you know, Mike, we've been talking for about an hour and 45 minutes now, wow, I haven't even kept track. Yeah, well, I have a timer right in front of me. How long everything but, but? So that's another reason. I know, you know, Mike. I don't want to, you know, take up any more of your time. I know, you know, you know, you've got a million things going on as well. So you know Mike. In closing, I just want to say, ask you one, one final question. Is there anything that we didn't sort of talk about they wanted to get a chance to or is there anything that you wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Mike Bierman 1:54:12
Yeah, every writer is different. What works for me works for me? That's a good place to start to look at. But it doesn't mean it's going to work for you. If you find a method that works for you, no matter how many people tell you it's wrong. If your work product is good, it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you're not stealing it. Do whatever works for you. Learn the rules, the conventions of the trade, some of them, people can't even say why it's done that way. It's just done that way. Some of the rules you're going to not be able to break, and some of the rules you will be able to break when anyone tells you absolutely Oh, this is wrong. That's wrong. Absolutes usually don't work. Learn a way to write that works for you and use that. Method. It probably won't work for me. Mine may not work for you, but there isn't necessarily a right way or wrong way. You need to get a high quality finished product out. If you stand on your head and gibber and shriek and write upside down, left handed, and that gets it done. Go for it. That's what you need to do, and you need to write. A lot of people say, write every day. You know, write three pages every day. You have to where you're not a writer. Well, I'm not a writer. I don't write every day. I write every day in my group. But as far as writing content, I don't so that's another rule. You know, writers write every day? Well, some writers write every day. There are plenty of writers that don't I write when I'm inspired, when I have great ideas, when I'm on an assignment, if I don't have anything going on, I don't feel like writing, and I sit down to write, I'm going to write crap, right? I'm not inspired, I'm not motivated. I have no direction. Then without a goal, I'm just going to meander along and write a bunch of forgettable stuff that will end up in a folder that I just wasted a day instead focus before you start to write, common writers errors. A new writer has no idea what they have to say, what their voice is, why they're writing. You need to try and discover your own voice and figure out what it is you want to say. You need to have something to say when you sit down to write. I'll close on that.

Dave Bullis 1:56:23
I couldn't agree more. Mike, Mike, where people find you out online? Sorry, I know I said that was the last question, but that's, this is the last question where people find you out online.

Mike Bierman 1:56:31
My, my information is up on IMDb under Michael E Bierman, most of my projects are in development, which means unless you have pro you can't see them, but there's plenty there. My contact information is there. I'm also I can also be reached through the Facebook group screenwriters, who can actually write if you're going to apply. I do vet people. I do not let people unless they're celebrities and they contact me separately, which has happened a few times. I don't let people in using false names, because deals are made in the group contracts form, you need to use your real name and you need to show interest in writing. If I pull up your profile, it's got a bunch of stuff about playing on the Xbox and what's your favorite whiskey and what's your favorite color, Furby. You're probably not getting into the group. So those are couple ways to find me and my emails on online at IMDb,

Dave Bullis 1:57:28
And everyone. I will link to all of that in the show notes. And again, I just want to say that Mike's group is phenomenal. It is the best screenwriting group that I'm aware of on Facebook, and it is just everybody in there is always doing awesome things. And that's sort of what I want to always wanted from a screenwriters group, you know, is people actually doing things. There's actually, like, three screenwriting groups I'm a part of on Facebook and and finally, you know, they're great. They're yours. Mike screenwriting you has one, and Scott Myers going to stories another. And those three, sure

Mike Bierman 1:58:00
He's great. He's a Facebook friend of mine. I don't really know him very well, but he's great, no question about it. Yeah, what? One? Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Dave Bullis 1:58:09
I was gonna say those three are what actually keep me on Facebook, because otherwise I just be like, there's nothing really keeping me here.

Mike Bierman 1:58:16
Hey, one final thought, shameless plug. You can look for my daughter and look for me. I'm finishing with CO writer, co producer Ramsey stone burner, exact producer guy, Francisco Poland and associate producer Craig Tallis. We're working on a feature film called the shoes, which we finished shooting about two thirds of it. We've just added an A list person, and we're going to be finishing that up in the next couple months. So got a couple films in development, but that one is one that is directly, at least partially under my control.

Dave Bullis 1:58:55
Oh, awesome, fantastic. Mike, and you know, I looked forward to seeing, you know, everything you're up to, and I know we'll be talking in the group. Michael E Bierman there, I finally got it out. I have a head cold, by the way. That's why I sound so terrible. But, oh, you actually sound great. No idea. Oh, good. That's why I'm having some trouble talking. I can't really breathe through my nose too well. But it's it's been a pleasure having you on, Mike, and I want to say thank you so much. And again, I will be talking to you very, soon.

Mike Bierman 1:59:20
Thank you so much for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.

Dave Bullis 1:59:23
I'm glad you did, my friend, take care. Okay. Bye!

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BPS 447: Turning a Script into a Movie: The Indie Filmmaking Story of Jamie Buckner

November 27, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every filmmaker has that moment when the light turns on — when they realize storytelling is the one thing they simply must do. For Jamie Buckner, that revelation came after dabbling in nearly every creative field imaginable — art, music, architecture — before realizing film combined all of them into one powerful form. From there, he immersed himself in cinema, devouring screenwriting and production books, and hustling his way onto sets like Seabiscuit and The Departed. He worked his way from production assistant to production coordinator on John Wick: Chapter Two, all while nurturing his dream project — a romantic bowling comedy called Split.

What makes Jamie’s story stand out isn’t just his impressive resume but his relentless commitment to writing and creating despite the chaos of production life. Between long hours on major film sets, he carved out time to develop Split — a movie he describes as “a bowling rom-com that just makes people smile.” Over several years, he wrote, revised, and self-financed his film, turning a short proof-of-concept into a full feature distributed across dozens of streaming platforms. His journey offers an unfiltered look into indie filmmaking: making time to write, raising funds through Kickstarter, calling in favors, and managing endless post-production delays.

Jamie Buckner also offers valuable insight for aspiring screenwriters: creativity is a muscle that must be exercised constantly, even when you’re exhausted. He credits years of reading production scripts — including works by Cameron Crowe — for refining his sense of structure, tone, and pacing. His advice is refreshingly grounded: “If you can do anything else, do it — because this industry takes everything you have. But if you can’t not make films, then you’re one of us.”

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
In this next episode, I have a filmmaker who comes to us from Louisville, Kentucky. He lives in New York now. He has worked with some of the biggest directors of all time. He's worked on as a production manager, Production Coordinator. He's worked as a PA. He's worked his way up, and he's also made his own movie. And we talked about how he found time to actually write this thing as he as he's going to all these different productions and what, what did he learn by reading all these scripts and all this other good stuff. So sit back and get ready to hear a tale about two filmmakers, each of whom has a movie called split. This isn't split the one with Emily Chameleon, by the way, if you listen to the episode with producer Mark bianstock, I was actually his ta when he was teaching at Drexel University here in Philadelphia. It's great episode, by the way. We kind of brush on that in this episode. But this is a different split. This is a bowl. This is the romantic bowling movie, split with guest Jamie Buckner,

Jamie Buckner 2:57
Yeah, I was gonna say many, few, you know, really, it's, you know, what's a number? What's the number of how many years ago? Yes, so there are many short and long versions of this, but so effectively, I, back in high school, sort of came to this revelation. Well, I guess it was kind of early college, trying to figure out a college major. Basically, I started as an art major thinking, like, Okay, I like to draw. Maybe I could. I kind of wanted to draw comics for a little while. Didn't really tried that for a little bit. Found that that wasn't for me. And was like, All right, maybe I'll be a music major. I love making music. I've been playing bass and guitar for a while. I mean, like, learn the actual like, mathematics of music and like, learn to read it and learn the theory and all that sort of stuff. Got into that that wasn't for me. Thought I was gonna be architect for a while, just kind of dabbled in so many different things. And it just sort of dawned on me at one point, I think it was just mid conversation with a friend about how I had always been really into movies, just as of just a thing, just like I was like, the guy that people talk to about movies, I was, like, really into particular directors and particular types of genres and, like, all these things. Like, I was just one of those kids back in the 90s that was just, you know, I'm sure you count yourself amongst this number. That was just, like, one of the, you like, oh yeah, the movie guy, that's Jamie. You'll talk to Jamie. I'll tell you all about, like, you know, whatever different Spielberg, you know, Tarantino, coming around at the time, you know, like, down till, you know, like I was getting into Sturges and, like, Truffaut and stuff like that, like whatever, just all of the, like early days, like film nerds, stuff. And it sort of dawned on me at a certain point that all of these things that I'd been dabbling in, that I was sort of interested in, from a creative, creative way of looking at things, all sort of came together in this one medium. All sort of were just like, you know, storyboarding is drawing, you know, music is heavily involved in, you know, you know, and even photography, it just basically everything that I really sort of wanted to do, but didn't want to hard commit to one or the other, all sort of came together in this one thing that I already loved. Loved. So I went to Northern Kentucky University up by Cincinnati, which did not have a film program, but what did have a terrific theater program, and had what was is now known as an informal informatics, immediate program, but back in the day was when I was going, there was just a communications, radio and television communications program. Took all of the film ish, movie ish classes that I could screenwriting, playwriting, all that sort of stuff as well. Sort of made the best of what was available there. And read a lot of books on my own, screenwriting books, you know, production books, film theory books, etc, so on. And one day, as I was working in a Sunglass Hut in downtown Cincinnati. I saw in the tower place mall that I was working in, there was a flyer for people to come to a certain Hotel on a certain day to be extras in the movie Seabiscuit, this horse racing movie that was shooting down in Lexington. So I go, turns out I fit the costume parameters, which is really all you needed to do to be a part of that. And I went and was an extra in the Ruby sea biscuit in freezing cold November of 2002 I believe, and maybe three. Think it was 2002 but I got down there, I slept on the floor of my friend's dorm room at Eastern Kentucky University, and I bugged the Holy hell out of all of the production people down there until they would give me the time of day. I made just enough friends to make some more friends from there to make some more friends. From there started working as a camera person, camera PA, as I was also Moon mining as a date school teacher during the day at my old high school, worked on an indie project for a director that is also from Louisville, who's a good friend of mine now, who we've actually worked on several other projects together, so on and so forth. Did as many projects as I could in Kentucky, ultimately decided to move to New York versus LA. Came up to New York, worked on my first production up here, which was this movie that was a remake of the honeymooners called the honeymooners, with like John Leguizamo and Cedric the Entertainer, I believe. But that was a few weeks. It was my first job. My foot was in the door up there, up here in New York, that happened to be happening in the same building as the production office for War of the Worlds. They called downstairs and were like, Do you have any pas that are, you know, not terrible. Luckily, they threw my name in there. I worked on more of the worlds for a little while. I have some cool stories from that that was fun. Office uptown for the new Martin Scorsese movie. The Departed calls same question. Do you have any pas that aren't awful? And they're like, Yeah, this kid's not terrible. We dig him. He's kind of fun to be around, and he doesn't screw things up too bad. So I end up working on the departed for almost a year, and then another Warner Brothers movie comes after that, called August Rush. So we stay in the same office, we work on that, and I'm now in with this team, and we roll on from another production to another production, and then I, you know, and the resume kind of speaks for itself. From there, it just kind of just becomes this. You work with enough people, and they get jobs, and they call and see what you're doing, and you go, and you bounce onto that, and you bounce onto that. And all the while I was still working on my own things and shooting music videos for friends bands, between jobs and doing little shorts when I could doing those silly little like make a movie in a weekend, 48 hour projects. And all that time working on this, rewriting, rewriting, reworking, planning for split, my first feature, which we just put out last August. So that is sort of the, I'm sure I missed some things, but that is basically the trajectory of how I got here.

Dave Bullis 8:37
Yeah, I see I'm actually looking at your IMDB right now, and like you were production coordinator on John Wick Chapter Two, I actually had the writer of John Wick one and two, Derek holstead, on the podcast before.

Jamie Buckner 8:49
How is he's like, the coolest guy on the planet. He found out me and one of our co workers on that was from Kentucky, and he bought us a bottle of Woodford Reserve bourbon that I had somehow never seen, I'd never seen this size available, this size of bottle, and we somehow managed to go through almost all of it over the course of late nights and Met Office. But no, I Derek is the coolest guy too. He would just like, you know, I'm just some random schmo working on the production. He has no reason to be sitting there and shooting, you know, shooting the breeze with us until the wee hours of the night. But we would just talk about movies, and I think we talked about the Twilight Zone in particular episodes we loved for like, two hours one night. He's just, what a red guy that Derek is, right? I'm sure I gotta go back and listen to that episode. I didn't realize you had him on. That's cool, yeah,

Dave Bullis 9:38
Really, really cool guy. And I got introduced to him through another writer friend of ours. And I was like, This guy's not gonna say yes to come down and show them with me. And he was like, Yeah, I love to Yeah. Of course he will. Yeah. He's great, yeah, fantastic guy. And I'm actually really glad to the John Wick both one and two were box office hits as well as critical hits, because I love to see when good things happen to good people

Jamie Buckner 10:08
Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah. You always, you always, you know, you always want that to be the case. Like, it's funny. I've seen, I've seen it go all different sorts of directions. Where the people you know, again, on this in the spirit of positivity, I won't necessarily name names, and people who aren't such great salt of the earth, people like your Derek colestes of the world, have success, and you're kind of like, yeah, all right, that's going to perpetuate some bad behavior. Or I've also seen some people that are really, really terrific, like, just really great, really fun, really talented people, and then in these tank and it's, that's a bummer to see, too. But so, yeah, you when the, when the when the optimum scenario happens, and it's just really good people make really good work, and it's really successful. It's, that's, that's what we're all hoping for, of course,

Dave Bullis 10:55
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I just going back to your career, you know, as you as, you know, you worked on as crew for all these films. Again, I'm looking at your IMDB, you know, how did you find the time to actually sit down and write splits? I mean, I know it started off as a short film before you made it into a feature. So, you know, back in 2010 you know, when you made this short where, you know, how did you have find the time between all these, these jobs? You know, because it seems like you're going from jobs. Going from job to job, you know, production and production. So how did you find the time to actually sit down and write, write this out?

Jamie Buckner 11:27
You know, you just kind of have to the original script. I've had sort of with me for a while, like from when I first started working in production, basically. And it's really just been a matter of, like, you just have to, if you if what you want to do is, is be creative, and you don't want to, because it's really easy to get stuck. I could just completely just rest on my laurels, keep working, and keep doing what I do well, and just, you know, and I'll eventually, you know, you know, just keep production, managing, supervising and things, and wine producing smaller things, and then I'm mind producing bigger things. And then I'm on to, you know, I could do that. And next thing, you know, I'll blink. I'm 60 years old, and I'm doing really well, but not exactly what I want to be doing. So if you really want to, and it's just really easy to get stuck in any particular discipline, you know, like, there's people who get stuck in the camera department who would rather be, you know, writing or directing or whatever, and that's not a terrible transition. But like, there are people you know that end up being key grips or gaffers that feel like they can't make the transition because the money gets good at a certain point and they just kind of keep working. Or art department locations, you know, you can, you kind of, there's so many different little specific disciplines that are super important to various productions. And you don't want to make light of any of those at all, but if it's not where your heart is 100% you just kind of always have to find the time when you can without compromising your, you know, your day to day work. I just, I just always prioritize finding the time whenever I could to go back and do a little rewriting or go back and do a little, you know, prep work of like, you know, trying to figure out where locations would be. And we're talking about over the course of years and years, you know, like, and talking to different actors and talking to different writers, helping give me notes, and, you know, producers talking about how, like, you know, how do you raise money for these things? How do you set up a, you know, a small corporate, you know, because you end up being a small business, basically, when you make a movie, not even basically, you are a small business. You have to, you have to basically teach yourself how to be an entrepreneur in a very sort of tweaked way. But, um, you really, I just, I just kind of made the time, you know, like, if I, if we got done shooting early on a production, and, like, I had a few hours left in the office, and everybody was like, oh, quit in time. I'm going to happy hour, I would, you know, be like, All right, guys, great. Just, you know, leave one light on. I stay here for five or six hours and, you know, like, pound away on my script. They're like, you know, I also would work on other scripts to, sort of like, you know, get a fresh eye on a different story, and sort of think outside of the like, bowling rom com box and like, go and, like, do a script contest, and like, write a horror movie in 10 pages, and then that would somehow inform a joke somewhere within, you know. So you really just sort of have to always the creative muscle I I like to think and, you know, there's much wiser people that can probably say it much better than me, but I think the creative muscle, and like the energy that you, that you put into it, are just very important. It has to be constant, because it's like a muscle, you know, it's exactly like, it's exactly what it is like. It will atrophy if you don't exercise it regularly. So as far as how I did it, I don't, I don't know, just basically every moment that I've can find free that, you know, you also find time for rest too. Like, I'm not just completely 24/7 like you get, you got to be wise enough to know when to take a break. When you're actually burning the candle at both ends and you're compromising other parts of your life, or you're compromising the creativity, or you're compromising the paycheck job, you know? And none of those things can happen, so you just have to be very keenly aware of how important rest is with all this as well. But whenever I had an opportunity, I'd be writing or talking to people about raising money or, you know, talking to actors, or talking a little little bit of this, little bit of that. And then it finally came to a point where I thought, okay, if we're going to do this, let's take the first, like, seven or eight pages. I forget what it was of the script. Let's do what I think I'd heard other people do before at that point. And I was like, I think we're gonna have to do a Kickstarter to raise enough money to start raising money. Because I knew it would cost a little money to get a lawyer, to start a company to, you know, get a couple wheels rolling to then, like, then be able to go out and, like, actually raise private equity. So I was like, I think I want to do a Kickstarter to raise money in order to start raising real money. In order to do that, I would like to do what I started referring people called it a sizzle reel. I hate the term sizzle reel because it's just not what this was, and people kept referring to it as that. And I get the place of a sizzle reel. I don't even know if people say that anymore, but it just drove me crazy. I don't think. I don't know.

Dave Bullis 16:18
It's called proof of concept now

Jamie Buckner 16:20
That's okay, see, that's what I started calling it, not even knowing anyone called that that. So that's funny, because I was just like, This is my, this, this will be, like, my, my, like, proof of concept piece. This will be my, hey, we're gonna make a bowling rom com. Oh, does that sound silly? Well, I don't think it's completely silly. Here's exactly what I had in mind, so that you can put in front of, like, a potential investor or an actor. This is what I have in mind. So we shot that two days over a weekend in Queen. I still stand that. I think I'm the only person ever to shoot Queens for Kentucky. So we shot this in like a double decker bowling alley way out in Queens with it's so funny that short, just the cast that we got for that short is now all super famous, which is hilarious, so, but it was so there was just this killer group of people called in all these favors, like one of the top 80s in New York. I was, is just a buddy of mine. I was like, Hey, you wouldn't come do this on a weekend, would you? He's like, Yeah, I'm free. Whatever. That's fine. And it's like, when it's like, when it's like when you shoot some you shoot something in New York, or you shoot something in LA people, you know, it's, it's oddly, it's good, not odd at all, actually, come to think of it, it's just it's easier to get top crew, top cast. Not that, not that there's not amazing people all over the country, and specifically in Kentucky, we had a great group. But like, as far as, like, these people that are, like, living, eating, breathing, the industry and doing it, like, on a sort of, like, a more visible skit, national and global scale, these people live in New York and LA, and if you're shooting in New York or LA, they're much more ready to just be like, Yeah, cool. Can I just hop on the subway and get there? Fine, yeah, I'll be there, whatever. It's no big deal. You can pay me whatever you can. It's fine if you know, it gets a little trickier when you're like, Hey, can you come to three weeks for Kentucky, and I'll put you in a hotel and whatever. They're like, Oh, I don't know, my kids are in school, or I got this other thing going, whereas, if it's just down the street, you know, they're much more, they're much more game for it. So, yeah. So in that short, we've got, like, Tommy Sadosky, who's now on life in pieces, and, like, you know, has just got his feet kicked up in CBS heaven. And you know, Keith Powell, who was on 30 rock, Mike Chernis, who, you know, Orange is the New Black. Like, just amazing. But, so, yeah, so we did the short, and then, oh my god, I totally forgot the question. Listen to me rambling. What was your What was your

Dave Bullis 18:38
Well, I was just about how you found time to actually write in between jobs.

Jamie Buckner 18:48
Oh, yeah, do you see how off topic I got on that? I don't know. Man, I don't really have a great answer for it. Just, you just kind of have to find it. You just have to make the time, you know, well.

Dave Bullis 19:02
And you know, you touched on something too that I previous guest, James Altucher, he touched on this as well. And creativity is he calls it a muscle. He calls it his idea muscle of coming up with these ideas. And you know, he's like, that's what happens. It atrophies if you don't use it. And so when you were saying that, I'm like, That's exactly the way he puts it as well.

Jamie Buckner 19:24
Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those things, and I feel it sometimes it well, it's also one of those things where, if you're gonna be in this industry, how do I say this in, like, a positive way? Because it's, it's, it is a positive thing. But saying it, and when I've said it previously, it kind of doesn't sound terribly positive. You sort of have to be crazy. You sort of have to be a little bit you. Obsessed and stubborn and just in order to do this business, in order to live and eat and breathe it and just have it be what you do. And it took me a few years to get to the points where finally, like I was just like, This is what I do. I am a filmmaker. I am a storyteller. I am a movie, TV, you know, a new media, like, whatever, like, I've lost. I have no other bankable skills. I'm literally, this is just what I do. And in order to sort of be in it to that level, you kind of have to have no other options. Because there are certainly days when I have, say, like, specifically on like, certain productions, if, like, some nightmare thing happens with like, an actor or producer's travel or, like, you know, is something bad happens on set with a piece of equipment. Is any number of things that I could tell you probably 100 stories. Like, you know, I'm living the dream. I do what I love for a living. But there's just, like, anything else, like, there's, you know, there's crappy days where I'm like, Man, I wish I could just work at a call center and go home at 530 every day and, like, go to happy hours and just like, have a nice, happy little life. Still live in Kentucky, just live down the street from my parents, go to like, you know, like, I kind of, there's part of me certainly at times that are just like, Wouldn't life just be easier if I would be okay doing not all of this? And the answer is, yeah, maybe. But I just, I internally, don't I if I was not doing this? And one is not doing this, exhaustive, sometimes insane, you know, often being asked to pull off the impossible if I wasn't doing this production thing, if I wasn't doing the storytelling thing. And this is including, you know, my, like, day job production work on, like, other bigger productions, and my own work. You know, like, I barely left my apartment yesterday. I finally had to leave and go outside and walk the dog at 10:30pm because I'd been stuck in here writing my next writing this next script all day. Yesterday, I woke up at eight o'clock in the morning, and I was just here like a shut in, just all day. And it's you just kind of have to have a little bit, you just got to be a little bit off, but in all the right ways, you know, and and it's, and it's, and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but there's certainly times where I'm just like, Oh, why can't I just go and work at, why can't my dad worked at, like, a GE assembly line for 30-40, years in Kentucky, like, making washing machines. You know what? He's perfectly happy now he's retired. He watches Westerns all day. Goes on long walks. I just, you know. I just, you know, I can't even picture myself ever retired. People like, what are you gonna do? You know, you know when you retire? And I'm like, who retires from making movies? We're all like, blessed with this opportunity to do this, I'll probably do this until they, like, drag me lifeless off of the set somewhere. Like, I don't know why I would ever retire from it. I just like, it's, I'm doing it, but if you're not doing it because you love it, then then you're legitimately a crazy person, because go do something else. It is. It is hard, you know, hard. I stay away from the word hard people. This always comes up when people are talking about, Oh, how'd you raise money for the movie? And, you know, people, oh, raising money is the hardest part. Raising money is hard. I don't like to call anything that we do. And I just slipped up on my own, on my own advice there. I hate calling anything that we do hard, because, you know, digging ditches is hard. You know, working in the coal mines is hard. Construction work is hard. You know, working in the heat and not having a job and living in a third world country, you know that that stuff is all hard. What we do is we're blessed to be able to like, you know, it to do what we do for a living. You know, I show up to work and there's like a truck full of catering that will make me whatever I want. I stay away from the word hard with anything that we do, but it's but the hours are tough, and the sometimes the conditions are not ideal. So if you can be doing anything, and I've spoken to some college classes, I've, you know, told that, what would you recommend? If the you know, you know, whatever, like, there's always, like, the basic questions I'm like, if you think you can do anything else, if there is a world in which you do not have the internal drive, where you absolutely have to be doing this for, like, with all of who you are, you should 100% just go do that, because it's going to be easier. Again, easy, or whatever. You know I'm saying it's going to be, it's going to lead to sort of a emotionally and sort of is spiritually the right word if you're not going to be happy putting in what has to be put in. To work in this industry, then just don't do it. Don't put yourself through it. Because it can be, it can be, it can be pretty it can be pretty brutal to it to a degree. Just, you know, it's mostly just about the hours and the in the expectations of like, when people expect you to be available for them to certain degrees. And again, that's and sometimes, when I'm working in production, that's just people that are people that are creative types that I'm just like, No, I get it. Listen, especially since I left doing regular production, you know, regular, like, sort of like, my normal production stuff and went and made the feature, I'm like, well, listen, I get it. I'm then I was that guy, you know, and I was never, like, calling people at three o'clock in the morning and being like, you know, we need to change everything. But, you know, I got it. I was like, listen, the creative end of it and the production end of it feed into each other and definitely overlap in a lot of ways, but they also are. You're sort of serving different masters to a degree, but ultimately not. You're also serving the story. You're serving the product, the you're serving what goes on the screen. But anyway, again, I'm all over the place,

Dave Bullis 26:06
But it's all good, Jamie, I tend to have that effect on people.

Jamie Buckner 26:09
You're like a therapist. You're just giving me the opportunity to ramble

Dave Bullis 26:15
Honestly. If you go back and listen to episodes, like, one out of every two guests will say, Dave, I don't know why. Whenever I every time I come on your podcast, I just start rambling, or I go in these other directions or, you know, and I said, No, it's a I have that effect on people the you know, longer answers and stuff like that. I think it's a great thing, actually. So, I mean, it becomes a stream of consciousness, you know, and it's good make sure you get out here, is what I think. Oh, thank you very much, Jim. I appreciate that and that. You know, as we, as we talk about screenwriting, you know, I wanted to ask you, when you were working all these other different productions, you know, I'm sure at one point or another you got to read the screenplay, did that have like, a lot of effect on you? How of how to actually, you know, write screenplays because you because, you know you're actually seeing movies. I mean, you're beyond a reader at that point, because now you're actually, you know, hey, these movies are actually in production right now. So there has to be something valid about this screenplay. Did you ever get a chance to read the screenplays? And if so, you know, what did you take away from?

Jamie Buckner 27:14
Oh, I mean, I It's funny. I've worked with some people on productions that, you know, I'll be like, oh, and then, did you read this in the script? And this, I read them immediately. Sometimes before I even start. I It's one of the first things I asked when asked for when I'm even considering doing a project, be like, well, let me see the script. And if you know, if it makes sense and speaks to me, I mean, well, go back and look at my resume. They haven't all been me being really choosy about the content, but, but I try to be, I do try to, I do try to make sure that I it's something that I enjoy, work I would enjoy working on. So, yeah, I read the screenplays every time I have worked with people that don't know, because there's certain disciplines within the making of like a movie or TV show, where you don't necessarily have to read, like every so you show up to set people tell you what to do. It gets done. You go home, whatever, which is certain, certain crew positions. But with mine, as I've as I've progressed sort of up the proverbial ladder there. I yeah, I find it crucial to read the screenplay. And I mean, it's funny to me, it has definitely affected my writing. I one of the, or one of the first scripts I read that really affected me, and specifically, really affected split is I had the opportunity to work on Elizabethtown, which was Cameron Crowe, which is one of my still, is Say what you will about his recent missteps. We might call them, but I I love the guy. I think he's a master. I think he's great. The Showtime show roadies that he did, it was not perfect, but I enjoyed it, but so I got to work on Elizabethtown I was in. So I was so young at that point too. I was so just over the moon that one of my favorites, probably at the time, my favorite writer director, was coming to my town to make a movie, and it was amazing. And I got to work on it. He was super cool, and I have all these great stories from it, but I got to read that script, and I it was just this revelation of just like, wow, this is good writing. And I can't explain what it was about it. It was just the way it flowed, the way it felt like, it felt like Cameron Crowe as a director, that I knew him to be, just because I had seen his movies, was speaking directly to me, like was talking to me about the movie he was going to make as I was reading the script and I could hear the characters, and they were right in front of me, and it was just like this incredible experience where I was like, Oh, this is good writing. It's terrific. And then that was also a very interesting learning experience, because, say what you will, about that movie, it did not quite turn out to be as good of as a movie as I thought the screenplay was. I worked on a movie called was the business trip at certain point, and I guess it ended up being, it's a Vince Vaughn movie, unfinished business. I think they changed the title to that script. I read it on the train up to Boston as I was going to work on that movie, and I was laughing out loud like a crazy person, and it was one of the funniest things I had ever read. Somehow the movie came out, and it's like they had tried to take all the funny out of it. I don't know what happened in between, and I was there. I don't know if that's editorial. I don't know if that's, I don't know. And it was a great group of people working on it. It was a great group of actors. I I don't was very strange. But that movie, you know, and I think, I think that's the opinion held roundly about it, is that it just was not exactly an A plus effort from most of the people involved, which is very funny, because the script, the jokes were very tight. It was very it was a very funny thing. Like, I was like, this could be the next hangover. This is gonna be really funny. And then there it went. But, yeah, I always, you know, and I read them a little differently now, like, especially from a production standpoint, I'll be like reading through it, and I'll just start clocking annoying production. Things really go up. House on fire, okay, oh, there's some kids, all right, dogs, birds. That's annoying. Okay, glass breaking. You know, just like little things, you sort of read them differently. It's like when you make, you know, this experience too, when you make them, or when you work in this for a living, you're an annoying person to watch a movie with my wife, my wife's brother. Actually, at one point we left. I forget what movie we were saying. So my brother in law, we were walking out of something, we started talking about the movie me and Elizabeth, my wife. He He said to me, I always think I like a movie until I hear you guys talk about, so but, yeah, no, I it affected my writing, and has affected my writing immensely over time, just because I think a huge and again, I am, you know, and I want to write, and I want to be, you know, All I'm saying is, like, I'm not this, like, hugely accomplished screenwriter at this point. I have written a lot, and I do really enjoy writing, and I actually, that's probably my favorite of I don't know, I say that's my favorite of the disciplines, and it's the most rewarding to me. But then I'll get on a set, or I'll see something that I've done, and I'm like, oh, maybe directing, but I like directing stuff I wrote, so one feeds to the other, whatever. But it's, it's, um, I think that in order to, I think it's about 50-50, honestly. Like, in order for you to be a good writer, you have to constantly be writing, but you also have to constantly be reading the kind of work you want to be writing, you know, it's kind of like making it's, you know, it's like directing as well. Like, if you want to make movies, you want to make TV, you can't just create in a vacuum, you know? You should be watching quality work as well, and not necessarily mimicking that, but learning from that. You know what? Who was? Who? Who are we attributing this quote to? Now, I forget who exactly said it, but what does it artists create and geniuses steal? You know, Picasso, yeah, there you go. So it's, you're not necessarily, you're not necessarily reading or watching things to be able to imitate them, but, but you're going to pull these sort of universal ideas and truths out of them and sort of recreate them in your own way, you know, like, I mean, take, you know, split the bowling movie. We did, like it is a very, by the numbers, romantic comedy, but it was very important to me to, you know, spin the genre a little bit, not the least, you know, not the least of which by making it a bowling movie. But, you know, there are a couple other little points where it was just kind of like, I won't bore you with that, right in this particular instance, but it's like, but, yeah, the screenwriting being able to read the work, especially like you're saying, at the point where it's like, this is production ready. This is the script you're going to go actually make reading that work constantly over all of these years has 100% I think, improved my screenwriting. And it also, you know, it also makes it that much more like, frustrating or interesting, whatever. When you're working on something, you're just kind of, like, this isn't that good. Like, I don't understand why this got picked to be made, versus X, Y or Z blacklist script or, like. A so and so other script that is like just sitting on the shelf, you know, like, why is this happening, versus all of these other things that I know exist in the world? But, yeah, no. I mean, I don't know all that, all that in a very long way to say yes, I read the scripts. Yes, I feel like I get I'm very privileged to be able to have access to that material from production of production for sure.

Dave Bullis 35:22
Yeah, it's, you know true. When you're, when you're ever you're making something, you know, and you're, you want to see what else is out there. And you and now, because of the of the of the environment we live in, you know, you can go online, there's, there's screenplay resources all over the place, you know, you want to read the screenplay for whatever. You know, there's a good chance it's out there. And so what happened, you know, I've read screenplays that for unproduced, you know, movies. I've read screenplays for produced movies, all sorts of stuff. Oh, do you just hear that update? Whatever? Okay, cool. I just, I had a chime just come on my screen. On my desktop. It was like, Oh, you have a Java update. Sorry about that. I sort of

Jamie Buckner 35:57
Should insert it in post. You should make it some big annoying thing. No, I didn't hear anything at all.

Dave Bullis 36:01
It'll be like that bird, crow from, from Citizen Kane, where all of a sudden, you know, like it was just going all them, you know, they put that in there to wake up the audiences. That was, like, their shock, because they weren't one of the producers know that, yeah, one of the producers was like, I feel it's just going on a little long, so put that in there.

Jamie Buckner 36:20
That's so funny. I've often. This is apropos of nothing. I I always have my phone on vibrate, but I just because, you know, whatever, being on sets and everything, I just am afraid. But if I ever were to actually have a ringtone, I really want to find the Wilhelm scream and just have that be my ringtone, just that, like, you know, like the Star Wars, when the storm trooper gets hit that, like that movie trope that the sound, sound people always put in there that I go,

Dave Bullis 36:47
There's actually a good Wilhelm scream, YouTube cut, and somebody,

Jamie Buckner 36:52
Oh, yeah, all of them, right, yeah, it's so good. Yeah, that's amazing.

Dave Bullis 36:55
You know, it's funny. I do you remember ring back tones? I know there's now we're going in a weird direction. But do you remember ring back tones? Yeah, dude, I always thought, like, if you had a ring back tone, what if you just had something like the Wilhelm scream or something just completely ridiculous, just went over and over again, yeah? And the person's like, God damn, answer your phone.

Jamie Buckner 37:15
That would be great. Yeah? I guess those went away. I love it. Yeah, that's so funny. You're taking me. I just listened to the last episode too, and I it was, it was very funny, you and, oh, my god, I forgot the guy's name, whatever was on your poultry center. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Talking about old video stores. Again, we remember old video stores. I'm like, There's an old video store in my movie, guys, the old video stores are still around. Like, that video store we shot in is still in Louisville, Kentucky. But you talking about all the screenplay sources online too. Makes me think of when I first moved to New York and there was still, like, the tables of like, people in Times Square would just, like, set up with, like, a folding table, and it would just be like, printed copies of, like, Hey, do you want to read Citizen Kane? I've got it with a purple cover here for twist $20 you know. And you'd go and, like, peruse the, like, pile of printed out scripts. And that was 2000 like, the internet existed. It just, you know, whatever you're right, it's totally funny. Any script that you want to read, produced, unproduced, yeah. And we go through on, you know, like, on John Wick. On John Wick two, we had, like, a code name, and, like, there was all this security, all these different, you know, watermarking and, like, the intense amount of of technology and security that has to go into just keeping these things from keeping the wrong people from getting a hold of these things and just popping them up on the line. Because it's so easy for just like one person to just be like, Hey, here's the script for the new John Wick movie and just zip it up online really quick. So there's so much, from a production standpoint, we have to, like, so many hoops we have to jump through, just to keep, you know, from random, yay, who's like, getting a hold of a copy and just throwing it up onto one of those sites?

Dave Bullis 39:06
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. That's what happened in Tarantino with with Hateful Eight. Was that something, you know, somebody, he gave the script out to somebody, and then somebody else was like, Hey, look at this tarantula script. And they, they photocopied it and put it up online.

Jamie Buckner 39:08
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a whole other operator. I know, I have a bunch of friends, you know, because we're here in New York, and like all these Marvel Netflix shows come through here, and the the amount of security. It's, it blows your mind, how much security goes into just every little marvel production. It's the like, they are probably the most intense about it, for good reason, obviously. But they are, yeah, they're, it's, you know, it's a whole new world. You just have to and even like somebody, I feel like I had a friend work on one of the Transformers movies, and they were down to just like, yeah, we watermark and we also on like, a certain page within the draft. Will change one letter in a different spot on that same page for every person that gets a script. I'm like, seriously, is that a real I still don't know if that's a real thing. I don't even know how you would do that from a logistical standpoint, but yeah, people were crazy about the security man, I mean, but that would, you know that would blow a movie, honestly, or certain TV shows too. It's like of everybody. I also, though part of me finds it to be a little bit too much sometimes, because it's kind of like, listen how many how what percentage of your audience is for like, a TV show or a movie or whatever, what percentage of that audience is going to be like, Oh, my goodness, the script is online. I'm gonna go read that script. I don't know how much of the general public is actually reading screenplays, but yeah,

Dave Bullis 40:46
I think what they're afraid of is the sort of like, you know, nerd sites, so to speak like me, but like, if I read a screenplay, I wouldn't be like, Hey, here's all things. I think a lot of these sites that they're afraid of that read screenplays will talk about them, and then all of a sudden, you know, someone's watching a YouTube video like, you know, you know John Smith, who's not going to read the screenplay, but he's watching this YouTube video, and they're just talking about it, and now he's, oh, sure, yeah, that's fair, that. That's why I think that they've sort of become locked down. The friend of mine and I were joking, I think was actual, actually, Michael K Snyder, and we were joking around that the next big thing in film is going to be a department created just called film security, where there's like, literally, literally, like, somebody who's in charge, or our team in charge of scripts, everything else, and be like everybody else does their own thing now, and we'll hand we'll be the ones in charge of handing out the scripts, getting them back at the end of the day, prospecting the Wi Fi, all that good stuff, you know?

Jamie Buckner 41:45
Oh, that's, listen, there's, there's, there are things. There are productions that have that. There are productions that have that we I work on a show called billions, and several other shows around New York that I know of. Like we have, there's all kinds of little sub departments that didn't exist, that exists now, like, we have an entire green department, you know, we have a green, quote, unquote, but like, an eco minded department that goes from set to set, and, like, make sure that all of our trash is separated into, like, recyclables and compost and all of those things. And, you know, they're tracking the carbon footprint of the entire production, like, how many people stayed in hotel rooms that are how many square feet for how many nights? And who tracks? Nights, and who traveled on what planes? It's intense. And then, you know, down to what I'm surprised hasn't started happening is that you have to hire like a social media person on every production, you know, someone who is specifically in charge of, you know, like, Hey, keep our Instagram, Twitter, and, you know, Snapchat, whatever up like during production, so that anybody who cares to follow it can go follow it. You know that there's so many just the technology and the way that people are consuming things, the pace at which people are consuming and the volume at which they're consuming is it's just changing everything. So, yeah, there's departments are just gonna keep popping up until, like, we just have everything covered. There's just going to be 1000s of people working on every little TV show, which is only going to be good for people in my position, because it just means more work. So all good things,

Dave Bullis 43:12
Yeah. And also, I wanted to mention too, I when I was talking to Mike about but the video stores that were gone, I was just meeting like, stuff like Blockbuster Hollywood Video those guys, I mean, the small mom and pop places. I actually there's one right up the street from me. It's about 30 minutes away. But yeah, I know there's still places here and there, and I'm glad they're still open honestly, because honestly, those are the places that that, you know, I'm, you know, like Quentin Tarantino, he worked at a local video store and stuff like that. And I love just, you know, you know, honestly, I'm actually starting to go the other way, Jamie, with a lot of things. Like, I used to be in love with Amazon and how easy it was. Now, I'm now, I'm just like, I'd rather just go out now to a little mom and pop place and buy, buy whatever the hell I'm looking for.

Jamie Buckner 43:54
I, yeah, I'm, you know, it's, I go back and forth, because it's just so obviously, it's easy, it's amazing to do Amazon to order things online. And you know, and listen again, I'm in New York City. We like I barely even leave the apartment sometimes, because the food will come to me at three in the morning if I want it to, and whatever cuisine I like. So the ease is terrific, but I know exactly what you're saying, and I think I've reached a little bit of fatigue with it as well. I recently started really buckling down on ordering comics online, because I have a great little spot right down the street from me that's like a little indie comic shop that sells a lot of zines and sort of, you know, interesting, more highly curated sort of titles. But then, you know, I hop on the train and I get into Union Square, and I've got my little local comic shop here that has just everything under the sun. And I spent a good few years just ordering like, you know, like, oh, the new saga is out, or other new Walking Dead or, right? And I would just order it on Amazon. And now, you know, I've really, I've really, kind of changed my tone. I'm just like, why am I. It's right there. I should just go down the street support these local businesses. So, yeah, no, I totally get that. And I think, and I think that's a thing that that we're all probably going to start experiencing, and it's only going to be good for those little mom and pop businesses. I just, you know, brick and mortar stores. It you want to talk about a tangent. I could go off about how I'm just convinced we're all going to be living the movie wall e within the next, like 10 years. But you know, we all just fight the good fight best we can. But no, I'm totally on your on track with that. Same as you.

Dave Bullis 45:35
Yeah, I know Mark Zuckerberg. He announced his plan to sort of do away with the smartphone, and it's all about AR mixed with a little bit of VR mixed with a little bit of AI, and it's just like, I honestly, I don't think that maybe, if you, if we baby step this out, but I think, like, if you were to try to radically, just change things overnight, like, with it, with an AR, VR, AI combo, like, I think what he what He's trying to do where it's like, you know, because there's also a company that's trying to get rid of computers as we know them, and it's just going to become that an augmented reality system where you're just kind of, like, moving parts around, unless, like, Yeah, that might be good. But, you know, I don't know how long that's going to take for everyone to actually transition. I mean, my God, they just killed 56k modems in this country a while ago, right? I mean, analog and analog cable signals, though,

Jamie Buckner 46:29
Man, there's still, listen, there's still people all over, you know, not necessarily a ton of people on the coast, but there's people all over the, you know, the middle of this country that still have dial up internet, you know, like, it's, it's, I don't know, man, I don't think that's I even have. I have guys on set. I have guys that work on set still that I'll be like, Oh yeah, I'll email you a call sheet. No, no, I don't email you're gonna have to print me one. Like, who are you? How do you not have the email? But these people still exist. So I think that, you know the Zuckerbergs of the world, and you know Elon Musk and, like, everybody's techno technology, everyone is just sort of stuck in this loop of, like, it always has to keep going at this exponential rate that it's been going. And I'm not saying it needs to slow down, but I think, like, I have a lot of thoughts about VR that I just am convinced VR, a lot of people are really hitching their wagons to the VR thing. And I don't necessarily, I'm personally in this, I don't know. It's hard to when you when you're speaking from your own personal position, like, you know, it's hard to say, like, you know, maybe the kids will be really into VR. I don't like, I don't know, but I, as a person sitting at my age and what I do for a living, I do not ever think I am going to watch a movie specifically made, or a television show or anything like that that is specifically made for VR. I just, I just don't know that that content is ever going to catch on for me or people like me. I just don't think about, I don't think, but I was, but that being said, I do think that there are very incredible and there's a lot of potential for VR in a lot of ways because so I was out at Sundance, not just year, but the past year, and I got somehow another got looped in with, like the ILM people, and they were doing a VR like demonstration. I was like, All right, well, let me see what this is all about. It's IOM. I'll see. So I put on a helmet and whatever, and all of a sudden I'm on Tatooine, and there's BB eight, and this is great, coolest thing ever. So, and they were like, well, we do other movies too. And then all of a sudden I was walking around with a velociraptor. And I was like, All right, this is actually too nope, too real. Stop. I'm actually scared. Quit it. There's a velociraptor in my face. So, but they, you know, and I was just like, okay, cool. That was a fun trick, guys, thanks. And they were like, well, you work in movies, right? Yeah. I mean, that's sort of my thing. They were like, All right, well, let's talk about some practical implications. So then they start showing they flip it over to it was some production. I don't know if it was for an actual production or something that they had just sort of mocked up. But basically, if you're going to go, if you're working on a movie, and you're going to build, say, like in a, however many 100,000 foot warehouse, huge spaceship, or you're going to build a mansion set, or something like that. VR, they started showing me these, like schematics for these sets, but they actually had built the sets out entirely in VR, so that you could put a camera in a certain camera position see exactly what your shot was going to be on your fake set that hadn't been built yet, so that you could have every idea about every potential shot in your movie on this set that was completely not even existent yet, just through VR so that you wouldn't spend any money at all being like, oh, no, actually, that doesn't quite work. We're gonna have to rebuild her. Oh, the measurements aren't quite you do all of your pre planning in VR, and then you, you know, it's the whole like, measure twice, cut once thing you've measured a million times digitally. And then just go out and build the thing, and everything's gonna go exactly as planned, you know. And I'm sure that's not exactly how it works, but like, that kind of thing is a practical application that I think, and you think about that, like you can do that before you build a hospital. You can do that before you like, that's the real world stuff that I think VR is going to be huge for. I don't think VR is going to be a huge storytelling medium in the way that people are sort of hitching their wagon to, if that makes sense.

Dave Bullis 50:40
Yeah, yeah. I concur. I just, I, I think that VR is going to be a lot like what he was, or, you know, the glasses, and then they had to watch, you got to get the 3d TV, and then 3d you know, Blu ray and, and honestly, I've all the friends that I have who are huge into movies, the movie going experience, or at the movies every weekend, only one of them actually went out and actually bought something like that. And he, and he has a ton of disposable income where he can actually buy stuff like that. Because, like, honestly, even if I had like, a ton of extra money, I don't think I'd buy that. And there's and, you know, I just that same way I feel by VR I just would rather, you know, have a better story. And plus, I don't feel like having my eyeballs burned out every which way I keep turning because, like, smartphone screens are bad enough, and it's just like, I don't need to be staring at another screen for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. And, but, yeah, so, I mean, I definitely concur about that. I mean, honestly that. So that's why I think that, you know, it's a lot of the trial and error too. With technology. I know you mentioned technology, they always have to feel it has, always has to be pushed forward, but even if we just, you know, but I think it's more of it there are trying to push it forward. I agree with you on that, and I think, I think they realize too, like the Elon Musk's and Zuckerberg, it's gonna be a lot of trial and error. Because, I mean, Elon Musk is the CEO of three different companies, and I guarantee you, I honestly sometimes I think that he even knows he's overreaching. And I think he just keeps doing it for, you know, just because he either because he can, or maybe he just thinks, you know, if he throws up enough Hail Mary's, one of them has to pass, right?

Jamie Buckner 52:16
Right, right. Oh, absolutely, yeah. And hey, you know what? These are the people? These are the people, in large part, giving us a lot of this great stuff that, you know, listen, I am, look at what we're doing right now. I am sitting in New York City. You're sitting in Philadelphia. We I am speaking into the air in my apartment, and we are going to digitally project this to the world at some point. You know, it's, we're it's the whole Louis CK, actually, this is the email signature in my when I send an email, just says, sent from space, because of this whole Louis CK bit where he's talking about some guy yelling into his phone on the or is it yelling about the internet working on his on an airplane or something. It's just like, give it a second. It is going to space. Just give it half a second. So like, I'm all, I'm always the first person to just be like, we guys, we are living in the future. I talk to my I talked to one of the three robots I have in my house, and I asked that robot to turn the lights off when I go to sleep at night. You know. I talked to my Amazon Echo thing. And I say, Echo bedroom light off, and it goes off. And I genuinely that has not stopped being cool, you know, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta, I got a room, but it vacuums my floor. I got, you know, it's, you know, like, whatever, like we were living in the Jetsons guys, it officially happened, you know. And it's funny, you know, growing up around the same time as I think we did, you ever really, oh, flying cars, whatever? Guys flying who needs flying cars? That just sounds dangerous and terrible to me. We're talking to robots in our house telling them to do things, and we have all of the world's information at our fingertips. No longer will you be at a bar being like, oh, and what was that movie with the one guy and the thing, yeah, that you have that answer, anyone can pull the computer out of their pocket and have that answer in 10 seconds. You know, it's the future is now. And I, for one, just love it. And these are, you know, in large part, these are the guys who are making this happen. Look, this is so funny my echo, because, like, Star Trek, we've, we've called her a computer, so every time, yep, she just came on again. Sorry, anyway, but, man, you know, I try not to be like, All right, let's all slow down. It's all moving too quickly, because I love it. I love all the cool technology that that we're able to play with, especially within the especially within the storytelling space. Yeah, you know it's, it's all happening really fast. So it's like, maybe, instead of moving on to the next thing, let's try to perfect. Some of the things that we have, yeah, yeah, I don't know, but that's, that's, that's, I feel like, I feel like we've covered about 20 different conversations for another time, but we'll just dive, just diving into them all here. And I love that.

Dave Bullis 55:13
Yes, I do want to talk about split. I mean, you know, just sort of going back to split. I do want to say, you know, you shot your short film in 2010 and then in 2015 you actually made it into a feature film. And, you know, again, because I know we were talking about so many different topics, I'm like, we actually should talk about split

Jamie Buckner 55:32
Well, that's, I'm telling you, that's what the great interview you see somebody on like, like a Stephen Colbert or, like an old Letterman episode, and they'll just hit the very end, they're like, oh, right, in your album, let's talk, does your album come out? But yeah, we, I mean, we did, yeah, we did the short in 2010 we actually shot the movie. In 2012 came out in August, I think was August 2nd 2016 is about four years of post, which is what happens when you, you know, yeah, I'm sure it's been said on this podcast probably 100 times good, fast and cheap, you know. You know, I wasn't going to sacrifice good, so, or I wasn't going to sacrifice good, and I and I couldn't sacrifice cheap, so fast went out the window. So we had a lot of people working on favors. And you know, if you have somebody who's doing a lot of really great post production work for you, and then they're just like, hey, I have to go to Montreal to work on a movie that's gonna pay me a lot of money, and you're paying me none money, then I'm like, Alright, cool. Well, we'll just, I'll do maybe some sound work over here with this other you know, you just kind of have to. So it took us a little while to get it out into the world. But So yeah, we were, like, in post production, movie ready to go, you know, for the most part, and just sort of like having to get some other little pieces out. And then I saw, I think it was somebody just sent me a text or something with the trailer of, like, coming soon from midnight shop. No, you know what it was. It was a news story. It was like the announcement of the fact that he was gonna make a movie called split. And I was like, oh, boy, what's this gonna be, you know, and people, should we change the title? And I'm like, No, it's our title. We were here first. What are you talking about? But yeah, so, yeah, so we came out in 2016 and it's, yeah, it's been a fun little ride, man. It's, you know, still continuing. We are on, if you're an Amazon Prime subscriber, we are one of the one of the movies you can watch for free as part of your Amazon Prime subscription. We are also available to rent or purchase on iTunes. We're on this is actually something that's been amazing through the distribution process that I just so much of it's new to me, but this particular part, they're like, Okay, we're gonna put you so you're on iTunes. Like, okay, got it Xbox. Oh, you can, okay, that. Didn't know you could do that great PlayStation, that one too, great. Also voodoo. It's okay. What's that? It's Walmart streaming service. Oh, well, okay, cool. There's that I just learned about we're on probably, I think I want to say, like, 50 different platforms. I knew maybe three of them existed. So that's, that's been a fun little ride. But, yeah, man, it's, it's, it's just good, you know, we just made a cute little movie. Everything that I said from the beginning, I was like, listen, there's not enough bowling movies out there. I like rom coms. Let's make a bowling rom com so that we're not doing the exact same movie people have seen 100 times, and we're having a little fun with it. And I, you know, I want people to go on, like a date night, or I want people's like, folks to go or somebody to be able to take their kids, you know, probably around the age of 12 or 13 or older kids and just, you know, walk out of the movie and just say that was cute. All I was going for. We're not changing the world here. I'm not trying to make some sort of, like, huge, amazing message. I just want people to leave say that was cute, and then be like, You know what we haven't done in a while, let's go bowling. So then, then people are going bowling. And that's really just what we set out to do. And that's what I think we accomplished. And it's been a lot of fun, and it's only been, only been made a little bit more interesting by the fact that one of the most polarizing directors of a generation decided to make a multiple personality serial killer movie of the same name. That's it.

Dave Bullis 59:21
It's about where we are, yeah, it's is. Again, as we were talking about the in the pre interview, I actually, you know, just funny because about my friend who actually found split, it was like, Oh, there's another movie out called split. Did you hear about this? And I said, I said, Yeah. I said, actually talking to the director. He He looked at me, so I when I said, Yeah, I'm actually talking to the director tomorrow. He goes, Why? Tomorrow. He goes, Yeah, are you screwing with me? Yeah, yeah. It's like, what I'm because, like, because one of my friends was finally like, he goes, Dave, I'm just gonna ask you if you've ever heard of these guys. He's like, you seem to know everybody. And I said, well, thank you. I try. But

Jamie Buckner 59:56
Turns out, turns out, that's so funny. I had a co worker who, I guess it was back in like February or March, had went to go see the Shyamalan split, and as they were walking out, somebody was like, you know, I tried to find a stream of this online, but I got some stupid bowling movie, if you had it's also that's, that's been, that's been interesting, you know, like, it is what it is. But, you know, people who are going out to watch a horror movie that, I guess, on some sort of, like sites, again, things I'm not familiar with, but I think, like Torrance or street something, somewhere out in the world, in a very popular place. It seems that our movie has been basically it's all of the artwork, all of the synopsis, everything completely out there in the world for pretty early on. It said split, as if it were the Shyamalan split, but then you clicked on it and you got our movie. So we've gotten a ton of people that were not happy about that happening. So that's that's been, you know, it's been something, but, you know, in fairness, there have been, there have been, you know, here and there, there have been, there have been plenty enough people, you know, that have just been like, Hey, I found this totally wasn't the horror movie, but it was pretty good, great. Thanks guys, you know. But somewhere, somewhere along the line, on some sort of like back channel torrenty Put movies up for free place we those wires got crossed. Actually, iTunes at one point, big, you know, awesome apple. Listen, I'm all on the Apple train. I love them all. I have all their products. The hate at one point had, what was it? It was our movie. It was our movie. You it was where you went to, like, find hours. But then down at the bottom, all of the trailers were for the Shyamalan movie. So it was like even iTunes had some of their wires crossed, which is and again. And then apparently there's a third split movie that came out in 2016 that I, you know, that is just apparently, like a completely out there sort of mind screw of a movie that I also haven't, you know, that I that I haven't seen, but I know exists. So, hey, you know what? It's a very popular little five letter word. What can I say?

Dave Bullis 1:02:27
We should sit down together. You myself. M Night, Shayamalan and the and another guy from that third split. And we should, the four of us can compare all of them back and forth.

Jamie Buckner 1:02:39
Oh, I what I wouldn't give what I wouldn't give to just hear from anyone in the like Shyamalan camped, to just say, Hey guys, yes, we know there's a bowling movie. Isn't that funny? Like, just something like, how many people? How many people have taught how many people? And I'll just go to my deathbed, I'm sure. Wondering this, how many people have gone up to M Night Shyamalan have been like, Hey, do you know there's a bully movie called, oh, if it's happened once it's enough to make my lifetime, that's that's really, truly the case.

Dave Bullis 1:03:19
But you know, you know what? You know, what I should tweet. M Night, after this, after this interview, I should tweet all about it. Do it and see, I mean, let's be honest, there's a 99.9% chance he's not gonna respond to me, because he's gonna be like, wait a minute, isn't this that weird guy? And that's how, that's how most people usually say, remind I remind people. Isn't this that weird guy from that thing.

Jamie Buckner 1:03:43
But I'd say there's also a 99.9% chance he doesn't run his own Twitter. So there's also that,

Dave Bullis 1:03:48
Well, he actually does. Oh, does, yeah, it's all it's all him.

Jamie Buckner 1:03:52
Oh, wow. Well, that's cool. That's after that. That's like mad respect for him. Because, like, I'm there's so many people that, like, spend so much time making it seemed like it's them, but it's not actually that, you know what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, so that's actually really cool. If that's legit him, that's great.

Dave Bullis 1:04:06
Yeah, it's apparently the because, I mean, obviously, you know, just from other people, they've said, Yeah, that's actually him doing it all. And then, like Kevin Smith, he does all his own apparently. And because I had a friend of mine whose job, when he went out to LA, his first job was actually running celebrity Twitter accounts, and then, like, he would actually just to make sure it looks like them. So then he ended up doing stuff for like, a couple adult film stars, like, doing their social media. And he said he got so burned out, because you can imagine, like, it was just a constant bunch of like, weird, creepy guys going, like, hey, well, I can't, yeah,.

Jamie Buckner 1:04:47
Oh my I can't even imagine. I can't listen. I can't even imagine how tough it is to just be a woman on the internet in general. But just oh my goodness, oh yeah. I could imagine that would burn, that would that would cause a person to burn out pretty quickly.

Dave Bullis 1:05:00
Yeah, and he has a lot of other weird stories, which I which I won't go into right now, but, but, but what? Jamie, you know? I mean, we've been talking for about an hour and five minutes now, you know, I know we, you know, just talking about split you know, is there anything you know that we didn't get a chance to talk about, that you wanted to sort of talk about, or anything you wanted to say sort of put up here at the end of this whole conversation?

Jamie Buckner 1:05:22
Um, I mean, not necessarily, I would, you know, I think I got in all of my, all of my little plugs for the movie. I mean, that's, that's really, that's really the the important thing, as far as, like, kind of, you know, and I think just as a person that comes and does any sort of podcasts, like your own, like, I'm actually, I'm having a great time talking. But yeah, I mean, anybody who's listening, if you're interested in seeing if you like romantic comedies, if you like bowling, one or the other, especially both, please go see split, not the M Night, Shyamalan movie, the world's first romantic bowling comedy. We are the easiest place to find all the play, all the ways we're available is just to go to Derby City productions.com, like Louisville, Kentucky, the like the Kentucky Derby. So Derby City productions, plural.com, and that's, you know, our trailers there. And there's an Amazon button, if you want to watch it on Amazon, there's a, you know, Google Play button. How pick your poison. It's all right there. You can also follow us on Facebook and Twitter. We're on both of those. It's just facebook.com/split, the movie and twitter.com/split. The movie. Make sure you put the the in there, because if you just do Split Movie, you go right to Shyamalan, which is which is probably led to the most hilarious Twitter conversations, where people have sort of tagged split. The tagged us thinking they were tagging the Shyamalan movie, which I just can't help but have somebody from our side respond to every time it happens. And it's also, yeah, I mean, there have been some pretty hilarious there's specifically when it first, when this, the the other split came out, there was a guy who did a whole Facebook status update that somebody had sent me about how he, you know, he enjoys a little herbal refreshment from time to time. This guy, and he got a little bit, got a little bit greened out, little bit blazed out, sat down and thought he was watching a horror movie, and he just does this whole account of how he got point for point through our movie, thinking like, when is this guy gonna turn and start kidnapping girls? When is this when's he gonna murder somebody? Like he gets through pretty much the whole movie, and then eventually is like, wait a second, James McAvoy is not in the like, what's amazing to me about that is my name as the director is, I don't think you make it two, three minutes into the movie before you see that. And you know, like, it says, directed by not M Night Shyamalan in very clear print in the movie. Maybe he it's just keeps happening.

Dave Bullis 1:08:03
Maybe he thought that was another alter ego of this baby. And he goes, Oh, it's not, it's not Emma. It's Shyamalan directed this. It's his alter ego. Jamie Dockner,

Jamie Buckner 1:08:12
Yeah, yeah. That's my, yeah. That was my, that was my go to when this first started happening, too. I was like, What a twist, right? Guys, it was a bowling movie the whole time night. So he's got some sort of twist in store for you. No man, I think, I think, you know, we've covered, we've covered, we've covered quite a bit. I don't think that there's a I don't think, I mean, here's the thing, like with your podcast, the episodes I've listened to, it seems like a lot of your audience is going to be people wanting to get out there and sort of do it on their own, or are doing it on their own, or just, you know, I all, I, if I have maybe two cents worth of advice to offer, it's just, you know, there's all the reason in the world to get swayed away from doing it. But if you have what I was talking about earlier, and you have that, that inability to do anything else, and you just have to be telling stories, and you have to be doing this, then don't let anyone stop you from doing it. It took us years and years to get this movie made, and so much got in the way, and so much, you know, tried to whatever like, there's, there's always hurdles. Just get out there, start making something, and by all means, finish it, because there are so many. The most amazing stories to me are when people are like, oh yeah. And I got on this movie, and then we shot it, and then this happened, and then it got into post, and then it just kind of never went anywhere. And I'm like, I do not know how anyone could ever get into that position, like, just put it out on YouTube or something. Like, you just get out there, have your story told. There's too many ways for you to just get your get your story out into the world these days, and it's just, it's too everything is too readily available for you to have any excuse to not just be out there, telling your story. So get out there and do it if, if this is the right space to just like, throw that advice at anybody. But it seems like your your listenership would probably appreciate that.

Dave Bullis 1:10:20
Yeah, yeah. I completely, I think this is the best, best spot to put that in there, yeah. And thank you for saying that. And I know exactly where you're coming from, that people, you know, we get sort of stuck. I mean, I've been there honestly, Jamie, but that's a whole nother story for another time. But, Jamie Buckner, thank you so much for coming on, buddy, absolutely, man. Thank you very much. Great talking with you. Great talking to you, Jamie, and listen, whatever you could do next. You know, let me know. And you know, I want to bring you back on. We'll talk about whatever you have coming out next. And because I'd love to have you back.

Jamie Buckner 1:10:50
Oh, great, yeah, I'd love to come back on for sure, man.

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BPS 446: The Screenwriting Secrets Every Indie Writer Needs to Know with Dan Benamor

November 20, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every writer’s journey begins with a blank page, but for Dan Benamor, it also began with an internship that grew into a career in film development. Starting at a small production company, he worked his way up from intern to head of development, gaining hands-on experience that taught him how vital confidence, responsibility, and strong opinions are in the industry. He saw firsthand how scripts live or die not just by their story, but by the conviction with which they’re written and pitched. “If you project confidence on the page, people will come with you,” Dan explained, underscoring the importance of writing with authority and clarity.

While Dan has directed, he realized his true passion lies in screenwriting. He thrives on crafting stories, breaking down structure, and refining characters until the narrative feels inevitable. His development background gave him “muscle memory” for story, allowing him to navigate theme, character, dialog, and pacing with ease. For him, the planning stage is where the heavy lifting happens — once the blueprint is clear, the writing itself becomes the fun part. This approach served him well on Initiation, a film he co-wrote with his cousin Oren, who also directed. The movie, distributed by Gravitas Ventures, follows strangers forced into a deadly cult ritual, blending action, horror, and a deeper message about inner strength.

What makes Dan’s story compelling is not just the film’s success, but the lesson it carries: you don’t need a massive budget or studio machine to create meaningful, marketable work. Initiation was made independently, yet earned legitimate distribution and strong reviews, proving that ingenuity and story can outshine resources. For aspiring filmmakers, Dan’s career is a reminder that discipline, persistence, and a fearless approach to writing can turn a simple idea into a film that audiences around the world can watch.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this week's episode of the podcast, my guest's new film initiation, which he cowrote, is being distributed by gravitas ventures. We talk writing, working as a development executive, and so much more with guest, Dan Benamor. Hey, Dan, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Dan Benamor 2:15
My pleasure.

Dave Bullis 2:15
So Dan, just to get started, you know, since you've listened to the show before, you know what the first question is going to be, and that question Dan is, you know, how did you get your start in the film industry?

Dan Benamor 2:27
Well, I mean, you know, for me, it's, I mean, I guess the real definitive moment was I came out here to LA and I got an internship with a production company, and then I was doing that for about six months, and I pretty much, you know, I ended up getting hired as a assistant, and then I got promoted from there, and eventually I became the head of development. So it was sort of, I mean, really, I guess if you broke it down, it would probably be when I just first got hired from an intern to actually being an assistant, and then it sort of snowballed from there.

Dave Bullis 3:02
Now, does that still work in a similar way? You know? Because, you know, things are always changing, and with with the changing face of distribution everything. Is it still that that that way, where you think interns are used as, sort of like that farm system, where they can be brought up within an agency?

Dan Benamor 3:19
My opinion on it, you know, was that, because I was at a small company where, basically, you know, the the principles of the company were right there, like, you know, you're dealing with them every day. And it wasn't, you know, I think that sometimes, if you go for an internship, you could get an internship with somewhere really cool, like, you know, like, say, for example, I got an internship at Lionsgate or something, right, some really big company like that, I would just be a guy, you know, one guy in this massive machine. I think in a scenario like that, it would be a little bit harder to have the trajectory that I ended up having a small company. Because at a smaller company, you interact directly with the principals. They get to know you and, you know, it's a more, it's a much more personal relationship. And so it's not, I don't think it says when it's a bigger machine, you know, I think you would might have a tougher time having any sort of, you know, upward mobility like that.

Dave Bullis 4:15
Now, so when you went in there, was that, was that your goal to be, to be hired, or did you have, maybe have another aspiration to, you know, to or another goal to maybe work for another company or, or maybe, you know, just go off on your own.

Dan Benamor 4:18
Yeah, I mean, I had no particular aspiration. I mean, I showed up here in LA with my buddy from film school, and we got an apartment in Hollywood. And basically, you know, for the first week, we went to the beach. But then after that, it was like, All right, what are we going to do? So I figured it would be worthwhile to try to learn, just learn as much as I could. And so I actually had a couple, I think I had, like, two or three different internships at the same time. And I just, you know, I had no real particular goal. I mean, I I've always my end game was always to be a writer. But I. You know, when I first got to LA, I just figured, as much as I can learn, it's all positive, so I just kind of showed up and, you know, and things, things took the course they took,

Dave Bullis 5:11
You know, and you know that that's great because, you know, because I've had friends to move to LA, and, you know, the things are the same thing to like they always felt guilty about not being outside, because they're like, look, it's a beautiful day out. The beach. Is down the street. What the hell are we doing inside? You know?

Dan Benamor 5:28
Yeah, yeah, for sure, man. I mean, the longer you're here too, the less you go

Dave Bullis 5:35
Until, until, like, somebody, like a relative or something, comes, right? And then you're like,

Dan Benamor 5:39
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dave Bullis 5:43
So you know this, and since we're talking about this part of your career, I want to ask, you know, because some of the people that have been on, I didn't get a chance to ask them this, but what are some of the skill sets that did you think that you had at this point that really helped you stand out and really help them? You know, your bosses and your managers that they, you know, they they saw you, and they saw your skill set, and they, they wanted to keep you. So do you any, like, any of the skills off hand that you think that really helped you, you know, get that promotion?

Dan Benamor 6:14
You know, it was funny, because I started as an intern, and at the end I was in charge of the interns. So I would, you know, I would kind of manage the interns. I would, you know, me and other people at the company, of course, but I think primarily that was part of my job. So I would kind of see, you know, you would give some interns, like, you give them a script. And you know, there were times when I was really busy and I genuinely needed to have, like, a really in depth, creative discussion about a script, and I didn't have time to read it, I would give it to an intern to read, and then I'd get up, you know, and say, Hey, give you that script. What do you think? And you really it was very noticeable, and it's actually interesting. So now, a couple years have passed since I was at that job. The guys that were my interns that I could tell had something extra. They've had continued success, like they've transitioned to other jobs where they've they, you know, some of them have become produced filmmakers. Some of them work at other companies now. And you know, you can tell the guys who basically had confidence that had an opinion, that's pretty much what it boils down to. You know, if I got up and I would ask an intern, like, Hey, would you think of that script? And he was just, like, as, all right, you know, like that. That's a that's not really what you're looking for, you know, you're looking for somebody who has confidence as an opinion and also is, like, has a strong opinion, you know, like, so if I like something, and you know, the intern that I'm checking in with him, and he didn't like it, and, and I say, Well, you know, I thought, you know, I thought this worked and that worked, and he kind of backs off his opinion. I think that is also another thing that, like your opinion, is your opinion. And it's important, I, in my opinion, to be strong in your convictions. Because once you waffle, you kind of lose credibility, you know? So it's, it's stuff like that, I think, and then also just the basics, right? Like just being responsible, like you're, if you're given a job to do, do it to the best of your ability. Be on time, be pleasant to deal with. You know? It's that, that type of stuff really important, too.

Dave Bullis 8:18
So would you ever sit down with a lot of these interns and go over things like this is how you read a screenplay. And these are the things to look for, you know, would you do stuff like that?

Dan Benamor 8:27
Yeah. I mean, when you would first bring them in, we usually try to get a coverage sample to show that they knew how to read a script, basically. And, you know, I mean, we, we had our own template and stuff like that, but that, you know, typically, if somebody's coming in to be an intern at a production company, we want them to have some reading experience, because we don't want them starting from absolute scratch. I mean, then then they have no real place to have a strong creative opinion. So usually, we try to find somebody who had some sort of background in reading scripts. Maybe they, you know, whatever that might be. And, and hopefully, you know, start from there.

Dave Bullis 9:07
So was there ever, you know, a time when you, you know, you read a screenplay and maybe you loved it, and you wanted to get a feel for all these interns, and maybe you gave it to them, and there was a point where they said, hey, you know, Hey, boss, we really didn't like this. And then the and then maybe you said, like, hey, yeah, I love that, actually. And, and, was ever there, was there ever a time like that?

Dan Benamor 9:28
Sure, yeah. I mean, always. I mean, that's but that's why, yeah, that's what you need, you know, readers for basically, to kind of check you so you can get a sense, especially if it's something a little bit out there where you're like, you know, I think this is great, but it's pretty, pretty weird. You know, you need a lot of times, you need that extra voice to kind of, you know, get a sense of how it's playing. So often in situations like that, I would actually have more than one person read it. I'd have like, five people read it, and then I'd be able to look at, sort of, the general response and, you know, compare and see what was. Consistent and stuff like that.

Dave Bullis 10:12
Yeah, and that's two very good takeaways, too. Is, you know, one, have confidence, and two, have an opinion. You know, that's very important to mention Dan, because I, you know, just to everyone listening, I, you know, I think that's very important to in the general in the film industry, is that you have to have your confidence, and you have to have that opinion, which, you know, if you're as a director, you need that, or as a writer, as you know, you need that point of view from where to tell your story.

Dan Benamor 10:36
Yeah, and that's, and that, you know, it's, it's a funny thing, because it comes back on you in so many different ways. That if you project confidence, and it's even on the page, you know, if you project confidence on the page, and you project confidence when you then later go into a development meeting or whatever, you can kind of sway people, like people want to buy into that confidence, like, you know, somebody sitting down to read a script, if that first couple of pages is written with a really strong authorial voice, they'll kind of come with you, you know. And if you as the writer have a really strong take on the story and feel really strongly about it and can back it up and all that stuff, people you know kind of want to take that journey with you, and they want to trust your credibility as a writer. So it's so important. I think once you it's not to say that, like, oh, you know, don't be being flexible. It's not about that, but it's just it. You got to be confident what you're doing. Because if you're not, and there's no, no one else will ever be confident in you, you have to be common yourself number one, and then other people can basically trust you. And you know, in our our business, it's so tough already that if you don't project that confidence, I think it's it makes it way tougher.

Dave Bullis 11:47
So what are some of the things that you notice, like, when we were talking about confidence on the page, you know, what are some of the things that usually jump out at you? And you can usually say, like, hey, you know that writer, he believes he or she believes in her own, her own writing?

Dan Benamor 12:02
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, I think it's a lot of different things. I think, I think one thing for sure would be starting out with a storytelling sort of approach, where you're not, you're not waiting for us like you're the story's going and we're either coming with you or we're not, but you're not going to hang around and hold our hand. You know, I think that that is something you'll definitely see in professional scripts, and it's a very noticeable difference from when you're reading a script, maybe by a more beginning writer, you can tell the level of confidence in terms of a shorthand of communicating information. You know where it's it's using, it's asking a lot of us as the audience, like, Hey, you, you got to keep up with me, kind of thing. And I think that you, when you, when you read something like that, it actually sort of galvanizes you as the reader, because you are suddenly empowered to, like, figure out what's going on and and it, it just makes it a more dynamic experience. The worst thing you can do is is, you know, have something where it's just spelling it out to you. You know, in every way, whether that's dialog or just the the slowness of the presentation of information, or presenting old ideas as if they are new ideas, you know. And there's, there's, you know, the audience now is so savage that it's really, you know, there's a lot that can be done in shorthand. And if you're not using that shorthand, I think that's where you can kind of get into a scenario where it doesn't come across with the same level of confidence on the page.

Dave Bullis 13:43
Yeah, I agree. The audience is very savvy now. I mean, you know, sometimes I'm watching movies and I see, you know, cliches and and I'm always thinking to myself, you know, if they I wonder if they're if the writer, director, whoever it was, I'm always wondering, you know, why didn't they try something else? You know what I mean? Because you know, you know. Now, Dan, what I do is, with movies, I'm always dissecting them in my head, not even, not even just, you know, like a piece of paper, but in my head, I'm always thinking to myself, you know, is this a setup? Is this is where you know, what would the payoff be? You know, you know. I wonder what the inciting incidents gonna be, and when it finally comes there, you know, you don't. I mean, I mean, do you do the same thing? Do you sit, you sit, you know, when you watch movies now, are you just dissecting them and sort of almost trying to getting ahead of the story to see if you could, you know, predict what the writer was thinking?

Dan Benamor 14:27
Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty much ruined as an audience member at this point. I mean, I remember, I remember I used to when I was, when I was in college. I would go my buddy, and we would sneak, you know, we would go see one movie and then sneak around the theater, and we would do that for like, 12 hours, and we would see every movie that was in theater. And I could actually sit and watch literally, I watched literally anything. But now, you know, I'm such a such an awful audience member, I'll find something, you know, like, you'll click something new on Netflix two minutes if there's something there. I just, I'm watching and I'm just like, Ah man, you know, I'll turn it off. Like I'm I've become such a terrible Audience Member exactly because of what you're talking about, because we were in it so much that it's like, you stop consuming it. Kind of, is like a regular consumer. You become a lot more sort of, I guess, hypocritical when you're when you're watching stuff, because you're always thinking about the design of it and things like that.

Dave Bullis 15:27
Yeah, I know what you mean. Because sometimes, like, you know, I watch movies, or even take a trailer now, and I'll say, Let me guess what happens in this movie. And sometimes I, you know, I'll say it out in front of my friends, and they're like, how the hell do you would you get that from seeing this? And I'm just like, because I just, you know what I mean, you see that stuff. You see those points. You only mean, like, those, you know. Okay, well, this is obviously last part of the movie. I know this sounds a little bit redundant, but the first time I ever had the not the first time, but the most time that sticks out my mind was when Paul Blart Mall Cop came out, and I saw the trailer, and a friend of mine went to do a screening of it, and I told him exactly what I think happens in the base based on the trailer. And he goes, Wow, you're really good at this. And I now, I Now granted, obviously we don't go see Paul Bart Malkoff for the writing, but, but, you know, that's, I was just bringing that up as a point of reference,

Dan Benamor 16:19
Yeah. I mean, in general, you know that goes back to the authorial conference. Thing, right? Is like, assume, when you're starting the story, the audience is ahead of you in the same way what you're talking about, like, if you set it up and there they are going to be predicting a certain storyline. So you the creator, you got to kind of know that, and you sort of knowing that you have to give them something that's at least a little bit different, because otherwise it's going to be exactly like what you're talking about. If, if the if the audience is able to predict it, like beat by beat, then you're screwed. I mean, that's really, you know, that's a really tough it's a tough place to get away from if you're in that scenario. So you got to figure some sort of wrinkle that makes it a little bit different.

Dave Bullis 17:04
Yeah, very true. And, you know, I actually, you know, just as we talk about all this writing and everything else, I want to, you know, get, get into your writing, you know, so did you always, you know, have the inclination that you wanted to be a writer director?

Dan Benamor 17:18
Well, no, so I, I have, I've directed one movie and some shorts. And then, you know, for me, the experience of directing my movie, which is called betrayed, pretty much told me that I would prefer to just be the writer, which, you know, I enjoyed it, but it's just so all consuming. So I give a lot of credit to my cousin Oren, who directed our movie initiation. It's, it's really an immersive thing that you kind of just it. You give up. You got to put a lot of yourself into it. So for me, I prefer being the writer. I mean, the experience that we had making this film, it's kind of like exactly what I love about being a writer is that I was able to come in and contribute to the story, and then they went off and made the movie. And I watched the movie. I mean, that's, you know, that's like, so that's, that's when it's cool being a writer, because it's literally, like, you wrote something on a piece of paper, and then you get to see that it exists. And, you know, it's pretty, pretty neat.

Dave Bullis 18:18
Yeah, very true, you know, cuz I, you know, I looked dry. MTB, I did see you have the short, then you, you did direct portrayed. And, you know, I wanted to, you know, just ask, you know, what was the biggest difference that you found when you when you had to direct? I mean, was there any, like, you know, challenges that you weren't anticipating, or, you know, did, did you just say, you know, what I prefer to be a writer?

Dan Benamor 18:40
I mean, I think that when you're gonna direct, I mean, I very much. I love working with actors. I think working with actors is so fun. And you know, if I ever end up directing again, it will be because of that, the part that I felt, you know, you kind of have to be all in or not in at all. For me, with the was the visual esthetic. I had a really great cinematographer on my film betrayed, and, you know, he was really good about, like, basically checking me and being like, Hey, that's not gonna look good. Let's do it like this. You know, when you're, when you're familiar writer, you don't necessarily think in that visual, in the way that that a director can to draw the same tools. You know, if you're, if you're someone who's constantly directing stuff and your aspiration is absolutely to direct, then you're going to be doing the same study that you and I do for writing, right where we we know it's so in and out, and we know all the tools and tricks and things like that. I think that you know, and obviously you you want you lean on your cinematographer as a director, of course. But I just felt like, for me, I enjoy, sort of trying to master this one facet of it, as opposed to, like trying to, I felt like it would be kind of a jack of all trades situation if I tried to the directing thing as much as I like it. I don't, I don't have the same, you know, energy with it as I do with the writing.

Dave Bullis 20:16
Yeah, I, you know, when I, I haven't directed anything for like, five years. But you know, I find that it's not because I don't want to, it's just because I've learned, Dan, that the writing has to be not good, but great. You know what I mean? Before you're going to do any project, I've learned that it has to be you have to like you yourself, whoever you know, for everyone listening to this, if you're writing something you yourself have to get so excited about it. You're like, how the hell is this not a movie made already, even if you know what I mean, and you have to be so and that's something that I've learned. So what I've been doing is I took one step forward to take two. I'm sorry I took one step back to take two steps forward. And basically, what I mean by that is I just wanted to make sure that I got better at things. And during this whole five year period, I mean, I've actually produced stuff. I've actually had a graphic novel get made, you know, stuff like that. And, but, but it's really, it all comes back to, you know, making sure that writing is phenomenal. And you know, when you when you talk about writing, I can, you know, I can hear you get excited about it in your voice. And that's good, exactly you need that, right? So I wanted to ask you dent when, whenever you're writing, you know what I mean? Like, is there any things that you keep in mind to, you know, make sure that you're always sort of going forward, if you know what I mean?

Dan Benamor 21:36
Yeah, there's a million things. I mean, that's the part that kind of, it kind of sucks about the more you learn about it, right? Because, I mean, when, when, when I started, you know, you would, it was a little bit more free because you were just like, yeah, man, you know, it's once you learn so much about it, then there's so many different things that you got to be thinking about. And so it actually makes, you know, once you actually get on the page, I'm good, but the planning, the planning stage, you know, there's a lot that you have to be thinking about, and it helps to just do it a million times. You know, I'm very grateful for the time that I was a development executive, because I basically, you know, developed, I mean, dozens of scripts, and we made a bunch of those movies too. So I really got to see the whole process many times, and so that that helps, because you sort of get almost like a muscle memory for it. But, yeah, you got so much stuff you have to think about. You got, you know, theme and character and dialog and arc and structure and mood, and it's, yeah, there's a lot to kind of manage.

Dave Bullis 22:44
You know, one thing I've learned, and you know, like you said, you know, the more you you learn, the more you know, the more you the more you do, the more you learn, and the more you learn, you know it you realize how complex this gets. And you know, I've read every screenwriting book on the market. I literally, you know, you can't see it because it's podcast, but I have every screenwriting book out there, and I've read it from cover to cover. You know, I've done what everybody else does. You start with Screenplay by Syd field, then you work up to save the cat, then you get story by McKee, you know, any sort of and then you sort of branch off from there, if you read those three works, because, you know, everyone sort of talks about it. But one thing I've learned over the years is that everything comes back to character. You know what I mean? Like everything, you know, when we talk about scenes, when we talk about favorite parts of a movie, when we talk about this or that, it always stems from a character.

Dan Benamor 23:36
I mean, it's very true. Yeah. I mean, I would always say, when we were, you know, when I was a development executive and we tried to put a movie together. There was pretty in every movie we made that actually ended up getting made. There was always a moment where we would attack somebody that was meaningful, whether that was an actor or director or whatever, and that person, when they would come in, it wasn't like they said, you know why I'm doing this movie? Because I love the, you know, the midpoint, like no, nobody ever said that. It's, it was always about whatever the emotion was of it, or whatever the character thing was that we were doing. That was what they would key in on and say, Man, I, you know, I really that meant something to me, and I got company out of that. So, yeah, nobody, it's, it's all, you know, the plot is informed by the character, and then they have to, they have to code, not only coexist, but actually sort of be intrinsic to each other. Like the the best movies are movies where the plot has to happen because of the character. Like those two, they can't exist outside of each other.

Dave Bullis 24:41
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's very true. And I think the mistake a lot of writers make, and I've made this mistake, you know, more times than I can count, is, you know, developing a plot and trying to plunk characters in said plot, if you know what I mean, yeah. And I think when, when you know, when you try to reverse that, when you try to reverse engineer, or something like that. I. Think that's where you sort of get stuck,

Dan Benamor 25:02
Yeah!

Dave Bullis 25:04
So, you know, when I, you know, your new movie initiation, it's being, you know, distributed by gravitas ventures. Congratulations, by the way, that's freaking huge.

Dan Benamor 25:14
Yeah, no, we're very excited, you know. And we're very proud of the film, yeah.

Dave Bullis 25:20
I mean, that is, you know, absolutely phenomenal. And I wanted to ask, you know, where, so, where did your idea come from for the film? You know, did? Was this an idea that came to you, or was this just something that you know, that you've been sort of working on for years?

Dan Benamor 25:35
So this, this is actually something that, you know, my cousin Oren, he had the initial idea. He had a script. And he basically, you know, we being cousins, we both live in LA, I would always come hang with him. And, you know, he mentioned he was working on this. And at one point he, you know, he and I talked about working on it together. And so basically, I came in and I co wrote it. I, I, you know, we, we ended up writing, revising that script and working on it together through to the end and and he directed the film and edited it and produced it. And so I this was a situation where, basically I came in, where there was already a product that existed, and I just gave my sort of creative energy to it. And I think that we both kind of complemented each other in that process. And you know that that was, that was the process played out on this one.

Dave Bullis 26:27
So for those, for those listening who aren't familiar with the film, could you give us a brief explanation about about the film Dan?

Dan Benamor 26:35
Yeah, so it's basically a group of strangers are kidnapped and they're taken to this kind of mysterious house, and they basically come to realize that they've been kidnapped to take place in an initiation ritual for a cult. And to be initiated into this cult, you have to fight somebody to the death. And so these people that are complete strangers to each other, they're just random people, and they're thrown into this insane situation, and they have to try to figure out a way to survive. And that's what the movie's about,

Dave Bullis 27:07
Very cool. And it's actually cool that's coming out right around this time, you know, this fall, Halloween time. You know what? I mean, it sounds like the movie, it's ripped out allied way, yeah.

Dan Benamor 27:17
I mean, you know, it's, it's, what's, what's been cool about it is that it sort of, it toes the line between action and horror. So, you know, we've been, we've been really happy to see that a lot of horror websites have reviewed the film and given us nice notices. Because I think that it's, it's something that's a fun movie for people that like horror movies, but it's also a fun movie for, you know, an action fan, thriller, that type of thing.

Dave Bullis 27:41
Yeah, that is very cool. And, you know, because, I mean, whenever you could see the horror, you know, horror sites, whenever they can get so excited about something, you know, it's always awesome. Because, like we were talking about with all the films, you know, that we've seen an internet and, you know, being able to sort of, you know, Spot the story, you know, they've seen ton of horror films. So, you know, when you can get them on board of something, you know what? I mean, it's like, okay, great. Now you got something, you know, it could have, if they like it. I mean, what? What's the general public gonna think, you

Dan Benamor 28:09
know what? I mean, right? Yeah, no. And we've been, I mean, we've, you know, we have shown the film to a lot of people at this point, and you know, enough people where it's a funny thing your relationship with your own work, right? I mean, anytime you show something to somebody that knows you, you're kind of like, well, you know, they might, they might just tell me to be nice so they thought like, but we, we've shown it to so many people, and then obviously, I think we have, you know, on IMDb, there's some, some reviews linked and and, you know, bloody discussing gave us nice review. And we, you know, these are people that have no reason to tell us one way or the other, right? So when, when somebody that has no relationship to you tells you they got something out of your work, then that that's, that's, that's big, because then you figure, okay, well maybe, you know, maybe it doesn't work, you know. And this is a sort of more objective proof of that.

Dave Bullis 29:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, I see that on the IMDB page. It's up on amazon video right now. Is there? Is there any other places that that people could find the movie?

Dan Benamor 29:13
Yeah, it's all over. It's on, it's on iTunes, on Amazon, it's on PlayStation, it's on, it's on a lot of cable, on demand providers. I was in, I was home in Baltimore, and I saw it on my parents, you know, cable at their house. It's on voodoo, it's, it's on the majority of video on demand providers.

Dave Bullis 29:36
And I will link to that everyone in the show notes. I will make sure to link to all those places that you can check out, the initiation, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, also about the initiation, you know, Dan, what's, what's one thing you want to be able to take away from the film? I mean, I mean, you know, did you want to leave, have people leave going, you know, Damn, that was intense. Or it was there any other sort of theme that you wanted people to walk away from? Walk away the moment from

Dan Benamor 30:03
A friend of mine just watched it, and that was pretty much what emailed me. He said that was intense. The the you know, what was cool about it for me was that I think we succeeded at something that I'm always trying to do, which is take with the genre movie and basically invest it with a real meaning, meaning that it's not just kind of a empty genre exercise, but actually it has a has a message and a point to it that is emotional, that is, you know, I mean, this movie is basically about the idea that no matter what situation you're kind of put into, if you have this sort of inner strength to defeat it, then no one there's nothing anyone can do to you. And you know, we sort of explore that in a lot of different ways in the film. But it was something that, you know meant something to me, and I think that it gives the film a weight that, you know, if we sort of just relied on all the genre stuff, it wouldn't have that same weight to it. So that's that was the thing to me, that I was most satisfied with,

Dave Bullis 31:12
You know, just as a side note, you know, screenwriting professor once told me a great piece of screenwriting advice, and that was when you're sitting down to, you know, brainstorm a concept or whatever, for for your movie. He said, This is a question you ask yourself, what do you want audiences to leave? What do you want audiences when they leave, to take away from this movie? Do you want them to say, oh, my god, that was hilarious, we know. And he said that helps guide you throughout the process when you're making the movie,

Dan Benamor 31:42
Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, you gotta, you gotta do it for a reason. There's just too much, there's too much stuff out there. This, all this, it tastes too long. It's too much of a pain in the ass, if you're not doing it out of some strong impulse of and it doesn't necessarily always have to be heavy, you know. I mean, we're like, right now, we, my cousin, I, are talking about doing another film together, and and we're, we're talking about doing one that's a little bit more sort of light, at least in the tone. And you know that that can be fine too, but it's just whatever that impulse is that you have that makes it interesting and exciting for you. You know, you got to really feel strongly about that and kind of and key on that throughout the whole thing, you know, because that's what you want the person who watches it to have that same feeling.

Dave Bullis 32:29
Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, I think, you know, when we can finally convey that, you know, I mean, like, I think you're like, for instance, Quentin Tarantino, whenever he writes, I'm thinking, that's the same thing that people pull away from. Is the same mood he's in, you know what I mean, particularly, like, hey, for late I have a, you know, that's sort of like a, it was the same, but it was different for him. And I sort of think that, you know, you could sort of pull away what he what, you know, what he puts into the script, if you know what I mean. And, and, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, Dan, as we know, we were talking about your future projects, I wanted just to ask, you know, what is a typical writing day for you look like?

Dan Benamor 33:09
Man, it's just, if I can just get some time, it's really, time is the most important thing. I mean, I I'm not for me. It's not like, I'll write anywhere. I'll write it anytime. I don't need to, like, you know, consult the muse or anything like, I can just sit down and bang some stuff out. But I think that I have a tough time. I'm sort of an impatient person, which I think is probably a pretty important part of anything except that I have had a will have is down, you know, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not patient to, like, just let things come as they may. Like, I want to get stuff done. And, you know, kind of, that's always my ethos. So when I the planning part of it, that's the part that takes forever. Like, I'll do research, you know, on initiation, I did research into military stuff on other projects I've written, you know, I'll read like, three books about it. But once it's time to write, and I actually have figured out the story, I'm so I have such a burning desire to just get it out of me and get it onto the page, it's almost to the point where, like, I feel like I'm gonna lose it if I don't that, it comes very fast, you know. And I almost, I almost will consciously try to set aside, you know, just a couple of days or whatever, where I know it's going to just be kind of flowing out of me and and just be able to kind of bang pages out because, you know, that's, I don't, I don't, yeah, I mean, it's just a difference in process, right? For me, the the real cracking of the story comes in the planning, the actual writing is just putting the planning on a piece of paper. So the writing itself is the fun part. The The hard part is the is coming up with the actual story.

Dave Bullis 34:49
Yes, I could not agree more, that's something that I found, too, is that, you know, because once, once I have an outline or a treatment or anything, you don't mean, like any even if it's a piece of paper with. Some ideas, you know, scribbled down on it that looks like the journal from seven, you know, just something. I know where I'm going, you know what I mean. And you know, the biggest part that was always, you know where the plot is going. But then I've realized always comes back to where the characters start, you know I mean, so we know when the when the when the script starts, is where the movie starts. So then, where do we find our characters when the script starts? You know, you know what I mean. Or do they have something? Do they not have something? You know, what's their desire? You know, what's what's their intention, what's their obstacle?

Dan Benamor 35:32
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Dave Bullis 35:37
So, Daniel, I mean, look, on average, how often, how many hours a day do you write? I mean, is it like, sometimes, like a 30 minutes, then sometimes, maybe it's like two hours.

Dan Benamor 35:46
I think that on a on a day when I actually can really, you know, when I have nothing going and I can really just sit and focus on writing, I'll usually, I think after like three or four hours, you got to stop. And I've done it, I've I've had times where I'll fit and I'll write for like, you know, I'll write the whole day. But I think as a general rule, unless it's something where I've gone insane and I have to, you know, I think that three or four hours of focused writing after that, it starts to become diminishing returns. Just your brain, kind of, it takes a certain sort of brain muscle, I think, to come up with this stuff. And after a while you start like, you don't have that same because, you know, I mean, it's sort of what we were talking about before. Like, each scene that you write, you really got to sit and think about it and think about like, okay, you know, here's the regular version of this scene. Why is this scene going to be somewhat cooler than the regular version. Like, how can I make it different? How can I make it different, not just in what happens, but in how the characters interact with each other? What's the visual thing that I'm doing in this scene with the reversal in this scene? So there's so much like mental effort that goes into it, that I think after three or four hours, I got to stop. So for me, a good three or four hours of writing and then maybe some research, you know, in the afternoon, or a lot of prep for the next day, you know, like, okay, and tomorrow I know I gotta write these themes just kind of what I'm thinking, and at least have a little bit of a roadmap of the actual precise execution, and then you can kind of flow into the next day.

Dave Bullis 37:19
Yeah, that's kind of like, which I think Stephen King maybe said that. He said, basically he, he ends on a high note that way, in the next day comes in, he knows exactly where he's gonna go, and he keeps that flow going on every day.

Dan Benamor 37:31
Yeah, I tend to do that as well.

Dave Bullis 37:36
Great minds think a like, you know, and that's great advice, by the way. So, you know, Dan, in closing, you know, is there maybe anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to or any sort of parting thoughts you want to, want to add to this conversation?

Dan Benamor 37:51
No, I mean, you know, I think the thing that's cool to me about this project specifically, and I think is relevant. So what we're talking about, and probably to a lot of people listening your podcast, you know, this is something that any of us could do. You could you you could have made this movie. You know, anybody listening to this could have made this movie. It's a movie that we made for a low budget but, you know, one of the reasons that it's been so cool getting some nice reviews from some heart Psych is that they basically said, yeah, it's a low budget movie, but the sort of ingenuity and the effort that went into it and that that made it. It didn't, it doesn't feel low budget, you know, like it's not, it's the point being that there's nothing stopping any of us from just going and making a movie. And not just a movie that we sort of is a naval gaming for our own edification, but a movie that anybody can sit down and watch and enjoy at a real movie, you know, even if you have to do it for a low budget, you know. And I think that this is sort of, to me, a good case study of that, that we actually went, made this movie, got it distributed by a very legitimate distributor. It's out everywhere, you know. And you know, we we've gotten a lot of nice responses to the movie. So we do think that the movie works. And, you know, we we just look forward to hopefully having people discover it, you know. And and maybe we can go make another

Dave Bullis 39:11
You know. And that's, that's phenomenal. And, you know, honestly, Dan, I'm gonna make sure to check out the the initiation. I will everyone. I will link that in the show notes, Dan, we're gonna find you out online.

Dan Benamor 39:24
I mean, you know, just, just stuff with the movie, I'm not, I'm, like, the worst person ever for all this. I don't have a Twitter. I'm not a social media, dude, but the initiation movie, we have a website, we have a Facebook page, and obviously it's on iTunes, it's on Amazon and all these other platforms.

Dave Bullis 39:43
Dan, I want to say thank you very much for coming on.

Dan Benamor 39:45
My pleasure. A good conversation.

Dave Bullis 39:49
Oh, my pleasure, sir. Take care.

Dan Benamor 40:17
Take care. Bye, bye.

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