Screenwriters | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 406: Unveiling the Art of Screenwriting A Journey with Kristin Overn

February 13, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a certain magic in the way creativity stirs the soul, and on today’s episode, we welcome Kristin Overn, a seasoned producer and the visionary behind the PAGE International Screenwriting Awards. With a career steeped in the art of storytelling, Kristin has spent years cultivating opportunities for writers to transform their ideas into scripts that resonate across the industry.

Kristin’s journey began in the theater world, studying playwriting and directing at Northwestern University. Her love for stories soon led her westward, to the bustling hive of Hollywood. “I’ve always been fascinated by story,” she reflects. “It’s the common thread that connects us all.” In Los Angeles, she worked tirelessly—starting as an assistant and script reader, gradually earning her stripes in film production. But her heart’s true calling emerged as she realized a profound gap in the industry: connecting new writers with emerging producers.

This insight birthed the PAGE Awards, a screenwriting competition designed not just to showcase talent but to bridge the divide between raw creativity and industry access. Kristin’s philosophy is simple yet profound: “Every great script deserves a champion, someone who sees its potential and helps it take flight.” Over the years, the competition has grown exponentially, now receiving over 6,000 entries annually. Its rigorous vetting process ensures that only the most compelling stories rise to the top—a beacon of hope for aspiring writers seeking their breakthrough.

Kristin’s candid advice to screenwriters is a reminder of the industry’s complexity and the persistence it demands. “Find your voice,” she urges. “Don’t try to be the next Quentin Tarantino or Diablo Cody. Be unapologetically you.” Her anecdotes, drawn from years of working with writers and producers, illustrate the transformative power of authentic storytelling—where characters leap off the page and evoke emotions that linger.

The episode dives deep into the intricacies of screenwriting competitions, the challenges of script development, and the significance of receiving professional feedback. Kristin’s passion for mentorship shines as she describes the thrill of connecting PAGE winners with managers, agents, and producers who can bring their stories to life. “There’s nothing quite like seeing a writer’s hard work pay off,” she says, with a palpable sense of joy.

As the conversation unfolds, Kristin’s wisdom offers not just technical insights but a deeper understanding of the human connection that underpins all great storytelling. Her belief in the power of perseverance and the beauty of imperfection reminds us that the road to success is often paved with lessons learned from failure.

“At the end of the day,” Kristin concludes, “the stories that move us are the ones that come from the heart. They’re honest, raw, and unapologetically human.” It’s a sentiment that echoes long after the episode ends, leaving listeners inspired to pick up their pens and tell their own truths.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
My next guest began her career as an assistant and script reader at Davis entertainment, and she's also a producer's guild member. She's a Director's Guild member, and she's been running this competition now for about 14 years now, and a record high 6,364 scripts were submitted last year. This is a fun episode, especially for all you screenwriters out there. This is purely about screenwriting, with guest Kristin Overn.

Kristin Overn 2:24
Okay, yeah. Many moons ago, I was a student at Northwestern University studying theater, and I focused very much on directing and playwriting, and I loved that side of the entertainment industry, but I stayed in Chicago for a couple of years, but then very shortly, discovered not only how difficult it is to make a living doing theater, but I was repeatedly encouraged by many friends of mine who had moved out to the West Coast to come out to Los Angeles. And one guy in particular was telling me that I'd make a great what they call a D girl. Back then, that was the early 90s, and D girl was a development girl, a lot of women were working, reading scripts, doing script evaluation at the time, and advancing through the ranks in that way. And I was fascinated by that. I love story. I love storytelling so and I love the weather out here. It was cold and snowy in Chicago, so I finally made the move. And I started out as an assistant, like so many people do, I worked in television on a show called Chicago hope, and I also worked at a place called Davis entertainment, which John Davis' company made some major movies and television at the time as well, and did development for some other companies, slowly, kind of worked my way up, but then took a little detour. I ended up being invited to co produce a feature film, a little independent movie, million dollar feature that a buddy of mine was producing and directing, and he wanted me to work with him. He needed somebody on his side who he could trust and who he felt could help make the movie happen. So I jumped on board, and suddenly I was working in production, in film production, and it was, you know, education by trial by fire, but it was a great experience. And so then I started working more and more in production and learning more and more about that. And I produce theater, but film, of course, has its own quirks and problems and issues, and it was, it was a fabulous education, and I did that for several years, but all the while that I was working in production, doing budgets and hiring crews and working on these low budget features, my real passion has always been storytelling, developing scripts, editing, working with writers, and I discovered a real need. Because one of the things I learned as I was working with all these, all these little independent movies, is that there are were, and still are many. The. Up and coming, new producers and junior agents and new managers, people who are honestly looking for new writers who have a hard time connecting with them because the new writers don't know to pitch them. They don't know how to get to them, because they don't even know, in many cases, that they exist and but these are the people who are truly open to working with new writers, because they're all so new and they want, they're looking for that fresh voice. And I conceived of the idea of the page awards at a contest, using a contest as a means to be like a development department when I, when I was at Davis entertainment, John had money, and they had a big staff, and they had a lot a lot of people reading scripts and evaluating them, moving them up the ranks to the point where they would eventually, hopefully finally, get to his desk. So I thought we could use a contest the exact same way. And so that's when I founded the page awards. It was back in the fall of 2003 and we've been going hot and heavy ever since it's been growing and building and it's it's actually worked beautifully in the way, I hope, which is that it's connected a lot of new writers with new up and coming managers who are looking for new clients and producers looking for new scripts.

Dave Bullis 6:17
You mentioned Kristin about new writers finding producers, and producers sometimes don't know where to look, or maybe, you know, new screenwriters don't know how to pitch them. And in today's, you know, marketplace with where we have all these different, you know, websites and, you know, not meaning like, you know, social media, and you have all these, you know, different contests and stuff like that. Do you think that it's easier now or it's harder now for for that, that connection to happen simply because, you know, there's so many producers and there's so many writers and that and producers are getting hit by so many different directions. You know, is it harder for talent to sort of stand out?

Kristin Overn 7:00
That's a really good point. It in some ways, it can be it may be easier for you as the writer, to find people who are looking for new material online. However, as you said, they're getting a barrage of material, and it's not vetted. And the thing that a contest will do, for example, like ours, is vet the material for the producer. And the reason we have a lot of these people reading the final round of our contest. They'll say, I want to read your top 10 thrillers, or your top 10 TV dramas, or whatever it is. And they know that by the time these scripts have advanced to the top 10 to the final round, they've been vetted by 4 or 5 6 8, other people. And so they know that the material is really strong. So that's that's the extra sauce that we add to the process at this point.

Dave Bullis 7:46
Yeah, you know, I always hear about, you know, all the different, like, different avenues that people could use to and I know I'm kind of getting away from screenwriting, but just using as an example, you know, all of the different avenues that people could use to distribute their film, you know, going on to YouTube or Vimeo, etc. And, you know, as I've talked to different guests on here, that's something that we've always come back to, is, is, you know, how do you, you know, get the attention of, you know, buyers? How do you get the attention of certain people that you're looking for? How do you get the attention of your target market? And I remember there was an interview with Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rigas, and they were kind of talking somewhat similar about that. And you know, Tarantino was, was very adamant in the fact that, you know, the the best quality material, whether it be a screenplay or a movie or a piece of music, will always rise to the top and will sort of, you know, get above the noise, so to speak,

Kristin Overn 8:39
Absolutely I believe that. And so the more people that you have reading it and kind of giving it a stamp of approval, if you will, the more people in the industry can sort of trust that, yeah, other people like this. So, you know, I can take a look, and there is, you know, there's a certain amount of what everyone else likes I should like as well. There's a Hollywood is a funny, funny place in that regard. You know, opinions. Sometimes people aren't always as sure of their own opinions as they are of other people's opinions, if that makes sense. And so that's when you hear about situations like, if one manager wants to wants to sign you, suddenly three others are chomping at the bit as well because they feel like they don't want to miss out on something good. It's competitive, and it it can work to your benefit, it could work against you sometimes, but it's just the nature of the beast. I think.

Dave Bullis 9:32
Yeah, very, very true. And, you know, I know we were kind of, you know, as we're talking about distribution, I'm kind of getting ahead here, but I wanted to sort of ask too about, you know, getting started in your career, you know, because you produce a lot of things, you know, you've produced a lot of films, you've worked as a year production manager, and you work as a location manager, you work as a line producer.

And I wanted to ask, Has has this experience when you, when you, when you started out, and as you have gone through your career, how has this experience sort of helped you out your current position at page? I mean, have you sort of, well, you know, I'm sorry, I should, I shouldn't add to that question, Kristen, so I'll just keep it at that, you know, how did this, all this experience, you know, help you with with Paige, as we, as you are the executive director now,

Kristin Overn 10:28
No, it's a great question, because it does. I mean, a lot of people, I think, sit in offices reading a lot of scripts, and that's great. That's one thing. But when you've actually been in the trenches on the set, set, they're figuring out budgets, seen what actually happens on the set with certain issues in the script that began day one, when the script, you know, was presented, you learn a lot about what works and what doesn't in production, and it is helpful in terms of evaluating material. That said, I will tell you. I mean, the projects I did were all small. They were low budget projects. And a lot of the scripts that win the contest in the action adventure category or historical film are big budget movies. So in that sense, you know, it's like, I don't know that the writer should think of limitations always. I mean, you know, especially depending on the type of movie you're writing, you know, don't be limited if you have a vision for a huge, big movie. I mean, if that's what it wants to be, that's what it wants to be. But if you are trying to write a film that a new producer can do for a million dollars, you know, there are, there are budgetary constraints. There are certain thing you don't you can't usually afford tons of cast of 1000s, you know, huge numbers of extras. CGI is becoming more and more affordable, so that's less and less of a constraint than it used to be. And there will are people who can do it very inexpensively, but still, you know, there are a lot of things you want to keep in mind if you're trying to write something low budget.

Dave Bullis 11:58
Yeah, I think that's a good point Kristen, and I wanted to, just to sort of follow up that question. Follow up that question, if somebody did have a script, whether it be a short, short screenplay or a feature length screenplay, and you know, they they said, you know, they wanted to make it themselves. And since you have the producing experience and the screenwriting experience, have you ever, do you have you had friends or clients or people you just met, who you know. Have you ever heard had anybody who's had a lot of luck? I don't say luck. I want to say success. Thank you. I was trying to figure out, trying to find that word. Have you had anyone who has had a lot of success doing something like that? Because the reason I ask is, Is that also, I've seen more and more where somebody like we were just discussing is, you know, somebody wants to produce their film. Somebody wants to produce their screenplay. Well, hey, I'm not gonna, you know, I don't want anyone to have to say yes or give me the green light. I'm gonna give myself the green light and go out and do it. So I wanted to ask you a question, have you had any you know, any people that you know, have any success in doing this?

Kristin Overn 13:00
Absolutely, many of our winners actually have gone ahead and done that. They had that in mind all along with their project, and they wrote it for themselves to direct, and they have, in fact, done so a lot of short films. Obviously, we've had a few people who have been maybe grad students at UCLA, USC, wherever, and perhaps the script they sent us was their graduate thesis or just a project that they wanted to produce coming out of school. And they're very aware of, you know, what it's going to take and how much it's going to cost. And usually they're putting up the money, or their families putting up the money, or whatever. So yeah, and they've been very successful shorts. We also had a script that a couple of scripts that won the contest, that had been produced by features, by the writers themselves and directed by the writers themselves. And one that I can think of right now is landed distribution, and I think will become, be coming out on Netflix and a couple of other places. It's been around the festival circuit. One of our winners, Laurie welts, wrote a script called scout. It was produced by another producer, but she directed it, and that has had a really nice distribution in the festivals, and it was on Netflix. A few weeks ago, I saw it on Netflix, and so yeah, and that's really exciting. We encourage it. We We're so excited by writers who are willing, able to do that? Because that's, you know, that's, it's such a, a, it's, it's such a huge learning process. And B, it's, you know, taking your career into your own hands. And that's wonderful when you can do that.

Dave Bullis 14:35
Yeah, very, very true. And just to continue with that question, Kristin, you know, as just as we talk about producing films right now, I wanted to ask if we took it the opposite way, which is meaning that somebody did something that was they aimed way too high and then, but for the resources that they had. And honestly, I'm guilty that as well. I've done that before, where I try. Had to make, you know, this action shoot him up at short film, and it's, and you realize you don't have the crew for it, you don't have the CGI people for it. You don't have, you know, the time to set up all these, you know, you know, gunplay scenes and stuff like that. So have you seen that too? Kristen, the where you've had people who just, you know they wanted, they said, Hey, Kristen, can you, can you, can I show you my movie? And it's just, you know, you're it's just you know, you could tell they they fell short.

Kristin Overn 15:30
Yeah. I mean, well, of course, you every once in a while, you see a short film or a project that has somebody attempted to shoot and they just ran out of money at some point. And you know, that's always too bad when that happens. But again, it's a it's a big, it's a big learning experience. And you know, we all, we all go through our learning experiences, whatever they are, and hopefully come through it and and continue despite whatever problems you might have had with your first project,

Dave Bullis 15:59
Yeah, and see that's, that's what happened to me, you know, just, just speaking for my own personal experience. Is what happened was, I am too high, you know, I made a student short film and I got, you know, very, very comfortable with, you know, you know, making, you know, you know what I mean. You make a student film, and then suddenly, you know, you're like, oh, okay, I got this. I can now. I made a very simple student short film. I can now make a John Woods like movie. Why not? Right? So that sudden, you know you're falling short. And I think we learn a lot more from our failures and our successes, because as the saying goes, sometimes, you know, with successes you sometimes people get lucky. They really do, as I've learned in life, sometimes you get lucky and you have the right crew in front of you. Sometimes you get lucky and you find the money. Sometimes you get lucky and the location pops up. But with failures, you realize, oh, wait a minute, this isn't my time to make this film or, or for and I'll give you another example to Kristen is I had a friend who was making a time travel movie, and she wanted to make it where, you know, I think it was like the 1800s I think, or the 1700s and I was explaining to her, you know, you're gonna have to buy all these, you know, or, I'm sorry, not buy, but rent all these time period clothes. You're gonna have to worry about cars and everything like that. You're gonna have to worry about planes. And I said, you know, how are you gonna pull this off? And and she was gung ho about it. And when we saw the final project, she said, Oh, now I see what you were talking about. Because she admitted to because, you know, you could spend, you know, a couple grand on Colonial Era clothes in a flash, you know what I mean, in a blink of an eye, and then all of a sudden you're like, Well, okay, that's just, you know, a handful of clothes and, you know, and what else you're gonna spend the rest, you don't have any money to spend the rest of for it, to buy anything else for this movie. So, you know, that's, that's another learning experience. So that's just what I mean by falling short. I want you know it's you learn a lot from your failures, and sometimes we learn more from our failures and our successes.

Kristin Overn 17:57
Absolutely true. God knows that's true for me, and I have to say she had the opportunity to learn from your failures, which is even better, because I always say I'd rather learn from someone else's failures, so I listened very closely to other people, and she made the mistake, perhaps, of not listening to you in that case, but she learned the lesson anyway, and she had to go through it, and I'm sure she got a lot out of it despite whatever happened, you know, because that's what that's what Life is all about at the end of the day,

Dave Bullis 18:23
Yeah, and trust me, there's, there's one thing I know, it's how to fail. So, so it's how to fail, how to fail often, but, but you know, you, you sort of, as you meet at different people, you you learn that almost everyone has made some kind of mistake like that, where they try to do way too much, too early, as they started making their films, I've learned that from just doing this podcast, you know, they make a simple film to begin, or they maybe again, maybe they got, they were in the right place the right time, and they got an amazing crew, or what have you. And the second film and the third film were like, Wait, what happened here? You're taking like, you know, steps backwards, so

Kristin Overn 19:03
The sophomore curse, or something like that, you know, I don't know, but yeah, it's, it's that happens a lot. We have that in the contest as well. I've seen situations where writers somewhat rare, but it happens there's because of their just basic writing talent, somehow what they piece together, almost by intuition, accident, whatever is just really works. But then they try to write that second and third and fourth script, and somehow it kind of all dissipates and and, you know, you wonder, well, then they have to go back and learn the lessons that they and solidify the understanding of why the first script worked, why the first script worked, and you know, how they can replicate it, although I hate the word replicate, but replicate the elements of that that worked, you know, so it's, it's fascinating.

Dave Bullis 19:55
Yeah, that's actually really interesting. You know, if somebody writes, you know, a script, you know the first one there, let's call it the freshman, the freshman script, and they hit it out of the park. It's a home run. It's you know, everyone you know loves it that people want to read it and the second and third script aren't there. I mean, it, you know, is it usually because maybe they were trying a different method? Is it maybe because they just tried to just rush things out too quickly? I mean, is that some of the things that you've seen?

Kristin Overn 20:35
I have no you know, I honestly have to say I have no idea why it doesn't work the second time or the third time. I have no idea what it is that sparked first one that just somehow didn't work in the second, third and fourth. It can be probably any one of the things you mentioned, you know, but, but I we have a situation recently. I don't think the right writer would mind, because I think he's talked about it himself. He won this page awards and 2007 with his very first screenplay, and he's been working on it ever since, and his subsequent efforts haven't quite worked as well. And he says himself, he's just had to go through a huge learning, kind of relearning process to really understand what it is that makes a screenplay work, even though, intuitively, he did something wonderful the first time out of the gate. And now this year, he won another prize with us. He's kept getting notes, he's kept reading, he's he's gone to conferences. He's just really continued to work and stuck with it, and at the end of the day, that's brought him back to maybe where he began. But now with that basis of really solid understanding of the process, the writing process, what it, you know, a better understanding of screenplays as a craft, you know,

Dave Bullis 21:53
Yeah, and that's interesting too, because you mentioned he, he wrote his first screenplay, and that's what he he ended up winning with in 2007 so does that happen a lot in your experience?

Kristin Overn 22:06
No, no, it doesn't. Most of the time. To be honest, people's first screenplays are can be kind of a train wreck. I mean, sometimes they just haven't bothered to really study the form at all. They sometimes writers think they know how to format a script better than the people who do it every day, you know. Or they think they don't have to study know anything about structure or what I don't know what it is, but they think they've seen a lot, I guess what it is, they think they've seen a lot of bad movies, and so their movie is bound to be better than all these bad movies they've seen, but most of the time, people's first efforts are not, are not, you know, they don't reveal their full potential. It's only after, most people will tell you, it takes many scripts before you really achieve something wonderful and special and something that's going to get you signed or something that's going to get produced. But there are exceptions, like, I mean, every once in a while that you run across somebody who whose very first script is just somehow magic. I don't know what to tell you. There's a little mystery to the whole thing, which is what makes it fun.

Dave Bullis 23:15
It reminds me what Shane Black once said he was doing this, this Q and A session, and and somebody asked him a question. He said, all the time he gets, you know, a lot of go get an email, or he'll get a note sent to him, sent to him via his agent, from, from like, a, you know, a fan or filmmaker, what have you. And it's always Hey, you know, Hey, Shane, I saw this movie in a blockbuster to Netflix or whatever, and I could write better than that. So I decided to write. And then Shane usually goes back with, Well, I'm glad that you think your mediocrity is better than some other mediocrity that you saw. And he said his advice is, is, instead of, you know, using that as saying, Oh, I could write better than this, how the hell is that a movie? You know, he's like you should really just want to do it in general, regardless of you know, if you think you could write better than than some other movie that's out there

Kristin Overn 24:06
Exactly, it's got to be, at the end of the day, it's got to be a passion that you're willing to stick with. And that's again, why I admire this writer who stuck with it all these years, even though his second and third and fourth efforts were not as successful as his first. I mean, his first script did not end up selling, but it got a lot of good attention, and it's still a viable movie, from my point of view. So, you know, but it takes that kind of dedication and passion, and if you've got it, you know, stick with it. Keep keep at it, and study and read and talk with other writers and be part of a writers group, and don't be afraid to get notes. A lot of beginning writers are really afraid of getting feedback on their scripts, because, honestly, they're afraid of what the person reading their script is going to say, and they don't want to hear it. You know, deep down, it's like, you don't want to hear that you have cancer or something. You know, it's, it's you don't want the bad news. But the truth is, um. That's what's going to help you grow again. It's your mistakes that, you know, learning from your mistakes that is going to get you to the next level as a screenwriter.

Dave Bullis 25:08
You know, that is 100% true. You know, I actually used to run a screenwriting group, and we would have people who would want to join. You know, every so often somebody would come in and and say, Hey, I have a friend, where I have somebody else who wants to join. And this one time somebody came in, he was a first time screenwriter, and he actually had illustrations within his screenplay. And I, and I, you know, something, I was a little nicer about it. I was like, hey, you know, I wrote a little note on there, hey, don't put in, you know, illustrations of a design and a screenplay. Like, you know you're not, you know you're not like a James Cameron level, where he could just do whatever he wants and no one's gonna bat an eye. You know, if you're using this as a calling card or what have you, it has to follow certain guidelines. Other people just put on the put in the script. They were like, No, an exclamation point and stuff. Like, you know what? I mean? It's just, it's, it is very hard, especially when, you know, you put all this effort and time to a screenplay and you get feedback, and you know, people tell you, hey, you know what? It just isn't good. Or, or some people will say, hey, look, it just sucks. And I think that what happens is, is, I think we, we kind of view it as an extension of ourselves. So we think, hey, look, this screenplay sucks, therefore I suck

Kristin Overn 26:23
Exactly it. You know, it's your baby and, and I know that, for example, the folks who read for us, the judges who read for us and write notes. And we talked to them about this a lot. You know, it's, it's critical that they understand that each script is a writer's baby, and they believe in it and love it and, and our job is to help them make it better and advance as writers. And I think our judges really try to do that. But I I have also heard a lot about writing groups where things can get pretty brutal. Sometimes other writers can be, you know, your toughest critics. You know you're, I don't know it's, it can be really great to be part of a writers group. I've heard some horror stories too. So it's all about putting together the right group of people that are going to, you know, grow together as a group.

Dave Bullis 27:10
Yes, very, very true. And about if everybody is really a part of the same goal, which is to be a professional writer, a working writer. And, you know, I was a part of another group where every meeting, every month, we met once a month, and every month we would have a whole new batch of people show up. So we would have to explain, like, the beginning of screenwriting, you know, we Hey, this is what formatting is. Hey, go buy final draft. Hey, you know, make sure that you're, you're all set. We know what I mean. Like, it's all, it's all these things. And finally, we started, you know, me and the guy, the guy who ran it at that point in time, we said, Wait a minute here. You know, we're kind of like spinning our wheels in the mud, because every meeting we're just briefing these, these new, you know, new people, and then they leave, and then we're getting a whole nother group, and then we're explaining it to them. So it's like, at some somebody once told me that the best way to run a run a writers group is to gain entry, you have to submit a screenplay, a fully, a feature length screenplay, and every, every member, sort of, you know, takes it and gives her feedback, and then you take a vote on it. But that's the key, is they have to have written at least one screenplay

Kristin Overn 28:18
That's very smart. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Or if it's a group of people, none of whom have written a screenplay, that's fine, too. But then you're on the same level, and you're learning together, you know? But the commitment is the other part. It sounds like it sounds brutal to be losing people all the time and have bringing in new people all the time, that would be really hard.

Dave Bullis 28:37
Yeah, you know what I think it was, was because, the reason we had that, that constant flux of people leaving and coming, leaving and coming, was because of the the time did change every month. And also, I think that a lot of people weren't really ready for, like, Oh, this is a real writers group, you know, because, like everybody, like the about the three or four people who are, I would say we're at the, sort of like, I guess, top of the group, if you know, though. I mean, we all, I mean, it was myself and through the guys and we, we all are doing stuff now, you know, I in the, in the business, one way or another. But the thing is, like everybody else, I think, was more long lines up. They wanted to start, like, a beginners group, you know what? I mean, like, Hey, I you know, because it's kind of like, you know, if you want to go play a sport or something, you know, you want to start on a team with other people that are, you know, you're like, you know, around, like, your your skill level, you don't want to start, and all of a sudden, you're, you're playing with people who've been, who are veterans, playing for years. You know what? I mean, it's just kind of, you get a little intimidated, if you will,

Kristin Overn 29:38
Absolutely, and it needs to be mutually beneficial for everybody involved, you know, so it's best if you're all kind of on roughly the same level. I think, yeah,

Dave Bullis 29:47
Exactly. And I'm not saying, like I'm some expert either, Kristen, I'm not, oh yes. I'm just saying, You know what? I mean. It's just like, sometimes, you know, in this business, sometimes things could get intimidating, period, you know. You see, you see a film in a film festival, you're a part of, you're like, Oh, well, God damn it, that person is better than me. I have no shot of winning, so, you know. And it's, I think it's happened to everybody,

Kristin Overn 30:20
Sure, sure. And it's understandable that people get intimidated, you know, because it's hard, and you know you're vulnerable, because it's your baby, then it's, that's, that's, that's what makes it great, though, that you know when, when you have that kind of passion for your project and you care that much, it's, it's both a curse and a blessing, because, you know, it's what, it's what is ultimately going to make your writing special, and that project special, it's also what's going to make you vulnerable to taking notes personally, or, you know, driving people away because you're too difficult to deal with, or whatever the situation is. So, you know, there you go. It's just part and parcel of the business.

Dave Bullis 31:03
Yeah, very, very true. And I wanted to ask to Kristen, as we sort of get into this about about page in general, you know, as we were talking the pre interview, there was an impetus for you to start page. And I wanted to ask, you know, what was that point in time in your life where you decided to actually start the competition.

Kristin Overn 31:23
It was a time when I was doing a lot of producing. I was working as a line producer. I was doing a lot of budgets for people reading a lot of scripts. And I really realized that I just missed the writing aspect, working with writers and evaluating scripts and helping writers develop scripts, and all of that that was more my passion than all of the work I was doing on movies to get movies made. That that's a grueling life, and I have friends who are great at it and who love it, but you're working 20 hour days for weeks at a time, and then suddenly the project is over. You got to have another gig right away and move on to the next. And it's it's a it's a tough life, and it wasn't the kind of creative life that I wanted. So I wanted to get back into working with writers and reading scripts and working with people who evaluate scripts, which is what all our judges are. And also being a little bit of a matchmaker, I have to tell you, I love the opportunity to take our winners and introduce them to certain judges. Sometimes I have a hint hit that a certain judge is really going to love a certain script, and maybe if they even read a different category, it's like, ah, yeah, I know you read the comedies, but I think you're really going to love this family film, and so I slip it to them in the process. And sometimes that works out, and it's really exciting when that happens.

Dave Bullis 32:49
So when you actually started Paige, you know, what was some of the responses that, you know, you first got? I mean, you know, again, like, when you start anything, like we were just discussing, you know, it's very nerve wracking. You get very nervous, you know, because there's always that feeling, you know, what, if I fail, you know. So, so what were you feeling when, you know, when you first started page?

Kristin Overn 33:07
Well, yeah, you're nervous that it's not going to work. Of course, luckily, because we did something unique with page at the time, which has since become pretty common, which is that we split the contest into these different genre categories. Initially we had nine. Now we have 10, and we have the judges evaluate scripts only in the genre that they're most interested in reading. Sometimes people like reading several, but we focus. We have them focus on one. And so basically they're kind of comparing apples to apples, if you will. Of course, not every drama is like every other drama, but at least you're not comparing a drama to a sci fi film or whatever. So you know that that that has been a real help on every level, both in terms of the judging process. The writers love being able to submit in a certain genre, knowing that their script is really going to be read by people who love that particular type of script, and that way, we could also present awards in the different categories and send out promotions. And so if people are looking for our top 10 sci fi scripts or whatever, we can send them those it's it's ended up working out really well over time. And sort of the when you talk about the beginnings of the contest, that was, that was one of the key things that I saw working right away, and I felt was really important. And so that's kind of kind of kept me going through the first couple of years, even though, of course, the first couple of years, we got about 1000 entries, which was pretty good, but, you know, it was tough to make ends meet. It was, we were still operating at a loss, but it was, I could see that this could really work, and people were starting to find projects that they liked, and that kept me going, you know, in the beginning, because I felt like, yeah, this idea is good. This idea will work. We. Have to get the word out, and it has to become better known.

Dave Bullis 35:04
So just to go now to sort of Flash forward to today, you know, 2017 how many submissions do you get a year now?

Kristin Overn 35:15
We got about 6300, both the past couple of years. So that's we're almost peaked out. I think the nickel receives just over 7000 lately. The past couple of years, I think Austin has received something like 9000 submissions, which is massive. We our judges, the way we structure things, we would have a hard time handling too much more than we get right now. So we're kind of, we're at a good place. I feel some people say that you have to read about 100 even 200 scripts to find a great one. Well, if we get about 6000 entries and we give 30 prizes, 31 prizes, that's about, right, then I figure

Dave Bullis 35:57
When you get, like, you know, you know, 6000 7000 entries, you know, I could just imagine, you know, that there's a, you know, that just all these screenplays sitting in a room, and it's like, my god, would you even start? You know, so, you know, how is the process? I've always been interested, you know, even with, with the Nicole and the and and the the Austin Film Festival one, and you know, some of these other screenplay competitions, you know that are getting, you know, five four digit high four digits submissions. You know, how do you start to sort through them as they come in?

Kristin Overn 36:32
Well, it's, it's well systematized now. And luckily, because everything's online, there's some things are doable that would not have been doable 1012, years ago. So as the scripts come in, they come in in a certain category, we have certain judges reading certain categories, and they get assigned to them online. And everyone's reading everything online now. So it makes it, makes it relatively easy, but we do have over 90 judges over the course of the five rounds of competition. So it's a lot of people going through it, but it's, it's all, it's all handled through a little online system that that works pretty well, pretty well.

Dave Bullis 37:08
So, so they didn't just just sort of continue with that same question, do you ever get like, so much digital traffic, then in your like and you start to sort of lose track of things, or we, you know, I mean, again, with all the submissions, I mean, I could just imagine, with that, with, again, high four digit submissions, it's like, how do you keep track of everything you know? And I imagine so. So do you have, like, a whole team behind the scenes, sort of like, okay, this is an action adventure, this is a comedy, this is a horror,

Kristin Overn 37:36
Yeah, absolutely. But it's all online too. It's all recorded when the script comes in so that the scripts can be automatically tracked to the right judges. And Zoe and Jennifer are very hands on our team behind the scenes. And Zoe handles all the submissions, and she does a fabulous job, and she's very much on top of it, watching as things come in and making sure that they're tracking to the right judges. And when writers request feedback, she'll be careful to she actually assigns those individually. So she makes sure that it's a script that that particular judge has not read before, it's the type of script that she thinks they'll like based on the log line, you know, that kind of thing. So we're very hands on, but by the same token, we've got it pretty well systematized now so that, so that things keep moving, which it has to do. You know, when you, as you say, when you have 6000 entries, and you have basically from January through October, is the whole process, but the vast majority of them are, are read by the middle of July. It's, it's, it's a lot of scripts to read, and a lot of people reading,

Dave Bullis 38:38
Yeah, and I mean having to get, you know, and all the feedback and stuff like that. I, you know, I've had friends who even started, you know, I mean, their own screenwriting competitions on a on a much smaller scale, obviously. And even then it was like, it was just like, my god, what the hell have we gotten ourselves into?

Kristin Overn 38:57
That's very true, you know. I mean, I think a lot of people think, oh, let's start a screenwriting competition. We'll make some money. It'll be easy. We're looking for a looking for some in some cases, like we're looking for a script. Let's start a contest, you know, but it's actually if you're, if you're honest about it, and if you do it with integrity, it's a lot, a lot of work, and it takes a lot of, you know, kind of caring people behind the scenes, the administrative team and the judges to to make it work well. Otherwise it ends up being pretty much a rip off for the writers. And I've seen and heard a lot of horror stories in that regard. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 39:28
I mean, because I've entered screw any competitions before, and I haven't entered page yet, but I'm actually hoping to get something done in time to enter. But, you know,

Kristin Overn 39:43
I hope we'll live up to your expectations. But yeah, I mean your own experience, I'm sure would be really educational for your listeners, because, you know, what's the range of experience you had with contests?

Dave Bullis 39:54
Well, I think Paige already meets my expectations. Because, like, honestly my expect, because, I mean, I've heard of the competition before, you know, as I was, you know, just just, you know, obviously we were just discussing this whole conversation, you know, I'm familiar with Paige, you know, Austin, the nickel. But in my experience, by the way, the ones I just mentioned, I've not entered before. I entered one, and I got back maybe half a page, or a page of like, of course, by you know, of like, feedback. And that's what I really wanted, was that feedback. So I wanted to hear what the writer was going I mean, I'm sorry the reader was going to say, and basically, at the end, she admitted that this screenplay wasn't for her, and just kind of, you know, let me down easily because she she just didn't know where it fits, so to speak. And I forget what language she used. But, you know, I felt like, Okay, I don't really know if this was worth the extra money to pay for the for the for the feedback. But what I did was, and this is a part of the funny story was, I took this screenplay and I knew a producer, and he said, Hey, you know, if it's a it's a horror comedy, and I sent it to him, and he goes, Dave, this is so over the top. He goes, I don't know how to even market this thing. Bob, you know, etc, etc. Well, a couple months later, I ended up bumping into him again, and he goes, You know what? I should have went with you on that screenplay. He goes, I don't know what the hell I was thinking about. He goes, I've been thinking about that opening. He goes, and the and the funny parts were funny, the horror parts were scary. He goes, but he goes, I just don't know. He goes, I just don't know how to actually market it. And I said, it would be tricky. It would be very tricky, but it could be done. And so I told him that the feedback I got from the screenwriting competition. And he said, Yeah. He said, You know, we talked about what competition it was. And he said, Yeah, they they oftentimes either don't give any any feedback, or they just sort of give, like this very homogenized feedback.

Kristin Overn 42:05
Yeah, yeah. I mean, feedback. What can I say? We work really hard to give our writers great feedback. That's a very important part of our mission, because, you know, it helps writers grow, and that's what our goal is. We'd love to see. We love it when writers enter a few years in a row and they keep doing better and better, and they've got more and more scripts and a stronger body of material, and so that finally, when they do, when they end up getting signed because they have a body of material to show an agent or manager, and things are launched from there, that's actually kind of an ideal scenario. And we love to be a part of that. We love to help to help writers do that. And feedback is a huge part of it. I think getting professional feedback is so helpful for writers when you can get it from someplace that's supportive, that's going to really that's where the goal is, to help you improve as a writer, rather than just trash you or tell you you know why the script doesn't work. So, you know. But there's the whole range out there. It's writers, you know. I think as much as you can get, my bottom line advice would be, get as much as you can and take it all with a big grain of salt, because that's really at the end of the day, when you're working as a professional writer, you're getting notes all the time on everything you do eight sets of rewrites on a script by the time it gets into production, or more. I mean, it's it's crazy, how much and you have to be able to take all these opinions from the producers initially and the financiers and then the director and the actors and somehow incorporate that into your script, and keep the integrity of your script and keep make sure it continues to work, because often the notes you get aren't even if the person offers a solution, often it's not the right solution, but maybe they have their finger on the pulse of something that's problematic, so you have to, as the writer, interpret it, interpret that, and make the note work within your vision of the script. It's very complex, that complicated and hard to do. So the more practice you get at taking notes, even if they're bad notes, and just figuring out, hmm, what was this person really saying? And, you know, is it something I want to do? Is it something that I want to incorporate in the script? Or, you know, and when you start hearing a note from more than one person, really pay attention, because something's not working, you know?

Dave Bullis 44:23
Yeah, I concur. And one of the thing I wanted to say, too was that sometimes, you know, the that note could be that something's not working. And one thing I've noticed, too is also something could be working. Because one, I wrote a screenplay years ago, and I remember I the one positive I got out of it was that everyone there was one note I always got it was like, Oh, this was actually working pretty well. This is a really nice way to open that this movie. And only one person out of everyone I let read it was said, Oh, no, that's too much over dramatic. Don't do it that way. And everybody else disagreed. And I was like, Alright, I think I'm gonna go with that, with the just gonna keep it in.

Kristin Overn 44:59
And that's again, you make my point for me, which is, get as many opinions as you can, and ideally professional opinions, but your friends is fine, as long as they know something about reading a screenplay. If your Writers Group is great, but get as many opinions as you can and get as many professional opinions as you can from wherever, because the more you hear, the more things will start to make sense, and then that one oddball opinion will stand out as like, Oh no, no. That was just that person who had a bad dinner that night or whatever, but or just didn't understand something about this, whatever the situation might be. But if you just get notes from one person, and you take those as gospel, you know you could potentially be be led astray.

Dave Bullis 45:43
Yeah, very true. Kristin, very true. You know, Kristin I know that the page screenwriting awards opens this year, which is December 1 2017 which is in about two weeks, give or take, and probably about a week when this podcast actually is going up. But I just wanted to, you know, ask just while you know, why have you on here? Because I've always heard this about screening competitions. I heard that the the better the chance for to sort of win, or to even just to get noticed, is to get your screenplay in earlier. And the reason, the the reason they say this, is because they say, you know, judges and everybody has to read so many screenplays that they end up, you know, pulling their favorites out first. You know what I mean, like, they'll have that in their meaning, in their mind, though, you know, they have, like, Oh man, I remember reading this script, and if you know, and it really stood out, and then, versus handing it in later, and, you know, you have less of a chance to sort of stand out. You know what I mean, like, we were talking about earlier on, where the with the time? The where the top always goes, the cream always rises at the top. So is there any truth to that in your experience?

Kristin Overn 46:48
No, no. So you know, that's one of the myths. And you know, I do think that the judges have less to read early on, and they're fresher, if you like, in a sense, although most of these people, keep in mind, are reading for their companies all the time. Anyway, it's it. So this is just something they incorporate into their schedule over time, but, but here's, here's the thing. Like for us, we have five different rounds of competition, so your first round judge will read your script pretty much soon after it comes in, right? And then this we also have the second round that starts right about in March, once there's enough build up of stuff moving forward from the first round. So those people start reading in March, and they read through the middle of the summer. But once you get to the third round and fourth round, they're kind of reading things all at the same time, and not necessarily in order that it was submitted. So basically, what we have found, and I've tracked this because people have asked this question a lot, we've had scripts with over the you know, with the 31 prizes we give, usually, one of them will have been submitted on the very first day of the contest, and one or two of them will have been submitted on the last day, and they pretty much are scattered all throughout. So it really that is not it saves you money to enter early. We push you to enter early because we want to get scripts in for the judges to read. We want to give them enough time to read everything. We don't want everything coming in in May, at which point, you know, we wouldn't be able to get everything read in time to make our announcements. So that's why we give, you know, all kinds of incentives to enter as early as possible, but it does not affect your chances of winning.

Dave Bullis 48:33
That's another sort of false myth out there put down. I'm glad, I'm glad I asked that question, because, you know, you see all these false myths online about about screenwriting in general, and I'm just glad that that

Kristin Overn 48:45
I think at least in our experience, that's one of them. I mean, maybe other contests. I can only speak for us, but, but that's, that's the way things run here. And I honestly have seen a lot of the scripts that are submitted in the last couple of rounds of competition win, as well as some that are submitted early on. So it's, it's, it's pretty well spread out throughout

Dave Bullis 49:06
And, you know, Kristen, we've been talking for about, you know, 50 minutes now. And I just wanted to ask, you know, is there anything that we can get a chance to talk about that maybe wanted to discuss right now, or just even anything you want to say to sort of put a period into this whole conversation?

Kristin Overn 49:19
I think the only thing is, you know, people ask me a lot, what does it take to make a winning script? What is it that puts the winners over the top? And it's a very, very hard question to answer, and I've tried to sort of distill it down over the years, but I would say that for us, the scripts that advance up to the semi final and final round. They're all really strong. They're strong writers. They're interesting ideas. They have the scripts have a lot of strengths, but every script has certain what somebody would call a weakness. You know, if one judge read it, they might say, Oh, I love this character to me, you know, so everyone, I mean, opinions differ in that regard. But at the end of the day, what I hear over and over, when we're down to the final final decisions, is people saying this script. The thing that's so special about it is this is a character that I know 10 actors who would love to play this role. It's so compelling, and so story moved me and and it will move an actor. So the script has a real shot of getting made, and it it the voice of the writer is just so clear and so specific and so special that they feel like they bred something that is unique and will stand out from the crowd. So whatever its other flaws might potentially be in terms of that they can work on in development, which, as I said, it'll end up probably going through however many rewrites in the course of development and into production. But that the true thing that's there, that the core of an idea that's really special, a role for an actor, that's really unique and compelling and and something that's really going to make an actor sit up and take notice, and just something in the voice of the writing that is, makes it stand out from the from the crowd, whatever that is,

Dave Bullis 51:36
Yeah, and that's very true too, because whatever gets you to stand up from The crowd. And you've seen examples, you know, all throughout, even in the in the like the 90s, for example, when Shane Black wrote Lethal Weapon Quentin Tarantino, you can really tell when he really enjoys writing his scripts, because they just sort of pop their own style of popping out at you. And then you even some of the screenplay competitions, the award winners, like they just released the screenplay from mud bound, they released a couple of other screenplays that you know, how the you know you could you and you when you read them, you can kind of see how you know they did what they did with their screenplays, how, what, what causes them to be unique.

Kristin Overn 52:15
Absolutely, when Juno came out, that was such a special script and movie, because she had such a strong voice on the same sort of note. But the flip side of it is that, please do not try to copy Quentin Tarantino or David Mamet or somebody else who has a really strong voice. Because really, the judges roll their eyes at that industry readers roll their eyes at that they you know, they've seen a lot of copycat scripts. It's really about finding your own vision, your own voice, your own approach to the world and to your story that is unexpected and fresh. And that's where you hear the phrase familiar but fresh. You know? It's like an idea that perhaps people in the industry can understand and say, oh, yeah, I know we did. We know about movie that some movie like that, but this particular script has such a fresh twist on the idea, and that's the writer's voice, the writer's point of view, that makes it stand out.

Dave Bullis 53:14
Yeah, and that's a really good point, by the way, Kristin about not trying to copy anybody else. I once had a friend of mine who who started before me in the film business, and he started before me, and he he ended up calling himself the next Quentin Tarantino, and he kept labeling himself as that. And finally, I think he bumped into a manager, agent, and they said, Why are you marketing yourself as the next Quentin Tarantino? They were like, do you think Quentin Tarantino went around and said he was the next whatever, like, he just wanted to be Quentin Tarantino. That was it, like, you should be focused on that, not trying to be somebody else. And I think I'm sorry

Kristin Overn 53:50
Absolutely, I'm just agreeing because it's, yeah, it's so important. You have no idea. I mean, I can't tell you how many times, oh, that's another guy, Richie script, you know, or something. They they're just and people do it. So you have no idea how many other writers are trying to copy some of these iconic writers, and it just doesn't. It doesn't work. So find your voice. Find your own voice. Oh, but you know, one good exercise, if writers want to play with it, and this is a fun thing to do, is write a script in the style of just for fun, as you're learning, maybe a short film, even just as you're learning, as you're growing, just to kind of strengthen your chops you know, write a script in the style of Quentin Tarantino or Diablo Cody or whoever you know, just to see how different writers might approach a different subject, a different basic storyline. That's a really fun thing to do, and it teaches you a lot doing something like that.

Dave Bullis 54:44
Yeah, I know what you exactly what you mean, and I've seen, but I do like the idea too, is just to be unique and be yourself. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you have to be yourself, right Kristin?

Kristin Overn 54:57
Absolutely, you know, absolutely, it's. So I think that's a great, a great sort of sign off. It's like, be yourself.

Dave Bullis 55:04
Yeah. I just want to ask in closing, though, is where we will find you, at online?

Kristin Overn 55:09
Pageawards.com is our website.

Dave Bullis 55:12
Kristin, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Kristin Overn 55:15
It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Dave.

Dave Bullis 55:18
Oh, my pleasure Kristin.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 390: Becoming a Jack of All Trades Writer/Director with Greg Mottola

October 24, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

After earning an MFA in film at Columbia University, he began his career as the writer & director of the independent film The Daytrippers, which would earn him a Golden Camera nomination at the Cannes Film Festival for best first feature film. He then went on to direct the Judd Apatow-produced hit comedy Superbad, and then followed it up with critically praised Adventureland, which he also wrote and received an Independent Spirit Award nomination for Best Screenplay. The film starred an ensemble cast who would go on to become some of today’s most sought-after actors, including Kristen Stewart, Jess Eisenberg, Bill Hader, Ryan Reynolds, and Kristen Wiig.

Other film projects include Paul, starring Simon Pegg and Nick Frost, Clear History, starring Larry David, and Keeping Up With The Joneses, starring Jon Hamm, Zach Galifianakis, and Isla Fisher.

For television, Mottola directed the pilot of FX’s DAVE and is an executive producer on the show. He also directed the pilot of HBO’s The Newsroom, which earned him a DGA Award nomination. His other TV directorial credits include episodes of the The Comeback, Arrested Development, Undeclared, and The Dangerous Book For Boys.

His new film is Confess, Fletch.

In this delightful comedy romp, Jon Hamm stars as the roguishly charming and endlessly troublesome Fletch, who becomes the prime suspect in a murder case while searching for a stolen art collection. The only way to prove his innocence? Find out which of the long list of suspects is the culprit – from the eccentric art dealer and a missing playboy to a crazy neighbor and Fletch’s Italian girlfriend. Crime, in fact, has never been this disorganized.

Starring: Jon Hamm, Roy Wood Jr., Annie Mumolo, Ayden Mayeri, Lorenzo Izzo, Kyle MacLachlan, Marcia Gay Harden, John Slattery

Please enjoy my conversation with Greg Mottola.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:07
I'd like to welcome to the show Greg Mottola. How you doin Greg?

Greg Mottola 0:22
I'm very good. Nice to meet you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 0:24
A pleasure to meet you as well, my friend. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Man. I like I was telling you earlier I've been a big fan of yours for quite some time. Back from the days of day trippers all the way through Superbad and keeping up with the Joneses and Paul, which was a genius, electric lovely, fun, fun film and your new film, confess Fletch, which I had the the pleasure of seeing early and fantastic. And we'll talk all about that. But my very first question to you, sir, why in God's green earth did you want to get into this business? And how did you get into this business?

Greg Mottola 0:56
You know, like, like, all of us grew up loving movies. I had a pretty sheltered childhood on Long Island, you know, middle class, not my parents weren't like foreign film goers. But I would discover things my dad loved older movies. So he pointed me in the direction of things to watch Saturday afternoon, black and white films, on channel 11, and stuff like that. And so I already started to get a love of old films and, and would see everything that came out and had some teachers in high school turned me on to like, you know, one teacher showed us Citizen Kane and, and that kind of blew my mind. And, and then I went to art school, I drew a lot. I, you know, like many kids read comic books I taught, I drew pretty well. And I did a lot of other kind of art stuff in high school. And I thought, you know, this skill, let's see if it'll take me somewhere. I got to art school and realized I don't want to be an artist. This is way too hard. There's no money in it. Fine Art is is I have respect for it. But I don't, I don't, I don't see myself as a great painter. But I was a painting major at Carnegie Mellon University. And at the same time going to every single movie they showed on campus, like the first time I saw Clockwork Orange was on campus at Carnegie Mellon. And, you know, I'd go to once again go to everything, so a lot of foreign films for the first time. So my first Fellini film, my first Bergman film, first Corolla, and and I was like, this is the best possible thing a human being can make as a movie. And I really wanted to do at the end, and I really wanted to learn to be a writer. school didn't have any film classes, they had a video class that was that was a conceptual art class, I once made the mistake of showing my teacher a short film I had made and he gave me a C for the semester, because Because narrative movies were the devil to him. You know, just wanted it all to be non nonlinear art. So I found a space called Pittsburgh filmmakers, which is a little was a little group of basically, documentary filmmakers and experimental filmmakers. And they would teach you how to film a stick of bollocks in your hand and say, Go shoot it, cut it on this little thing that you just your hand rolled the reels, not even a Steenbeck not even a machine. And then you're going to you're going to cut the negative and get it printed in a lab in Pittsburgh. And I made I started making short films, which were not great, but exciting to me, because because, you know, I was seeing how lenses worked. And I was loading cameras, and I was cutting negative and one of my teachers, Tony Booba, great documentary filmmaker, kind of in the style of the Maysles brothers, he he would make these kind of personality movies about funny people, weirdos who lived in his town, which is called Braddock, which was a big steel mill town where that was very economically depressed because the mills were all closing and he would make these sort of social commentary, short documentaries, focusing on on big, big personalities in his area, and they were great. And Tony's brother was George Romero's editor. Tony got me a job working for two weeks in the art department of Day of the Dead. The third Romero zombie film, I was making zombie vomit out of glue, Elmers glue, paint and Rice Krispies and whipping it against a wall with a rag as one does to simulate. And I don't know if you've ever seen Day of the Dead.

Alex Ferrari 4:58
Oh, it's yeah, it's a fantastic film.

Greg Mottola 5:00
It's great. It's great. And so yeah, but we were as I was putting out a vomited, Bubs like little cell. And then I was helping with the r&d of the there's the shock moment where all the zombie hands come through a cinderblock wall. Yeah, I was there when they were trying to figure out how do you score Styrofoam, make it look like cinderblock. Like you know, all the little experiments and so they'd say, Okay, go over there and score 400 pieces of Styrofoam that was you know, because I was unpaid intern.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
So what was that? Let me ask you, though. What was it like working on the set with George Romero? I mean, at that point in your career, he must have essentially been almost godlike to you as a hero.

Greg Mottola 5:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, he. This was probably the year after creep show. Certainly, it seemed on I mean, night, living dead Dawn of the Dead bunch of times. I loved his movie, Martin. I tracked that down and we saw it at a theater. Somehow in Pittsburgh, maybe there was a great rep theatre near my college. I remember seeing doing that. And when it opened, it was very exciting. Even though people kind of trashed it. I was like, I don't know, this is sort of awesome and terrible, same time. And, and so so yeah, I you know, I was too shy to talk to him. I didn't, I wasn't a precocious. And still I'm not a terribly precocious person. So I just watched him and I watched him and Tom Savini talk a lot. And, and was just excited to see how they were going around making decisions. I was my work, my work there, whatever it was, was done before they started shooting. So I just got to see them prepping. It was there shooting in this cave, deep in a cave, we'd have to take golf carts and their bats flying all over the place. It was, I was so happy. To me. It was like I was missing all my classes and getting more C's and I was on a movie set. And you know, and I have a great affection for independent filmmakers. Here's a guy who worked and lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, making movies his whole life. Not exactly. Beverly Hills or, or Universal Studios. And the only other time I was on a movie set, I got a day as an extra and gung ho, the Ron Howard the Ron Howard.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
Yeah, I love that movie back in the day is great.

Greg Mottola 7:25
Yeah, I watched it not that long ago. It holds up really well. It's it's, I thought like it's this I kind of like it is yeah, it's great. And so, so you know, I and then I was making, I was taking the video equipment from a video class and shooting short films and they just wised up and stopped showing them to my teacher. I just made them for my own learning purposes. But the minute I finished film, school, I mean, art school, I I went straight to Columbia University for film school, I thought okay, now I need to, there's a lot of skills they need to learn. Now, during straight to grad school,

Alex Ferrari 8:04
Now so during that time, if I'm not mistaken, you were starting to come up in the 90s where it's, you know, I look at it as the kind of golden age of independent film as we know it. The Sundance movement is many have coined it because from basically from 89 to early 2000s. I mean, Sundance was just popping out. Amazing film after amazing filmmaker after amazing filmmaker, as a filmmaker, what did that impact that because I know daytrippers came out in 96. So you were kind of like in the middle of that Renaissance, you know, but you know, Robert had already come out. I think you came out at around the same time as Ed Burns did with Brothers McMullen. Yeah, that around that time as well. So this was just like, I anytime I haven't any, any of you guys on the show that we came up in the 90s. I always say it didn't feel like that every month. There was a new Kevin Smith's story, or Robert Rodriguez story or Spike Lee's story or Rick Linkletter story isn't wasn't at a crazy time for filmmakers.

Greg Mottola 9:01
Yeah, it was kind of amazing. I mean, I graduated from film school I had no I had no real connections to the business. I wrote a script. I thought it was pretty good. Campbell Scott read it. I had a mutual friend and he wanted to do it, but we couldn't raise the money. It was a little too expensive as a first movie. So I sat down and wrote daytrippers in about a month because I just wrote it thinking okay, I could set a scene in an apartment and get someone's apartment for free. I can set the scene on the streets and get permits and like anything that could be free. We shot on my parents house, we shot you know, everything was a favor. And during that time, I'd also met Steven Soderbergh. I met Steven right before sex lives came out. I made a student film that was kind of making like the student film rounds. Someone showed it to Steven. We met I went on one of my first trips to LA I went to meet Steve and he was prepping or starting, I think to prep Kafka. But sex lives had been like a Sundance. This phenomenon and there was a big article about him in Rolling Stone but it hadn't opened yet. And so, you know, we got along really great and Steven and I stayed friends and a couple years later when I wrote daytrippers, I showed it to him and he said, let me help you make this he put in some money he got some friends to put in some money, you know, we shot it, we got it in the can for like $60,000 but it you know, Steven called in favors he got Kodak to give us a huge discount on film stock and, and and, you know, I the same time was meeting people like HAL Hartley, one of my best friends from Colombia, she was dating Rick Linklater, I was hanging out with him. So I was meeting all these people I met. I met no Abom back. Yeah, it was it was, it was a great time. I mean, they're like, people were just saying, fuck it, we're gonna go around the system and make our ship for very little money. And yeah, well, like when daytrippers came out. It played in our houses, there were a handful of prints that would travel around the country, and it took, you know, months for it to get to every city. But to me, that was a dream come true, because it got to every little art house theater in America. And we were able to sell at some other countries and pay back everyone who worked on it. And it's my first paycheck ever as a filmmaker. And yeah, it really felt like a time like I remember, you know, going to a bar with some of those people and like, no, or how and just like, complaining about Hollywood and saying fuck those people, and they're slick movies and, and they don't have any soul. And we can pretend to be rebels and yeah, artists, they don't get it. And you know, and Soderbergh and I have stayed friends this whole time. In fact, I just worked on he did a bunch of short, humorous black comedy shorts that I was like quasi producer, you know, essentially just a friend helping out on that were shot like you would shoot a student film, even Steven, you know, has wounds. He's, he's, he can do every job. And he was shooting these on iPhones and, and he certainly didn't need my help. It was really fun to be there and watch him work and, and I helped, you know, bring some actors into it. I like got Michael Cera to be in it. And Liev Schreiber and you know, it felt very, very full circle. That, you know, we're still here and we're still there. We're still doing it. But the 90s were, it was it was it was it was a unique, Kathy, I kind of feel like I knew everyone because there's so many of them were in New York, Mary Heron was a friend, Nicole Harlow center I went to film school with she and I are still friends. It was it was cool. It was I mean, it's, you know, because of technology. It's become easier to make movies on a low budget and have them look good. Look professional because of digital technology in both shooting and post production. But and there's a lot of great stuff. And you know, it was very heartwarming to me to hear from sort of the next generation of indie filmmakers the what were they called? The mobile mumblecore Yeah, they do philosophy. Yeah, like Mark Duplass told me so like daytrippers was a was a big inspiration to him, because he's like, Oh, you can make a film for nothing. And it's okay, if it looks like it was made for nothing. I think that's a compliment. But it was true. It was absolutely true. And, you know, I

I, at that point had absorbed many different genres of film and whether it's low budget American films from the Corman years or in like films from Europe that were made on a shoestring and and I still believe and I still, I still feel half indie and everything I do. Maybe that's because I have a really hard time getting enough of a budget for anything, but I've been very lucky. I've been very, very lucky. I I've no complaints.

Alex Ferrari 14:31
No, it's really interesting. When you brought up Steven because I knew that Stephen worked on day trippers, and he's been quietly behind the scenes, helping filmmakers make their movies open doors. It wasn't at him that help Nolan get on inside. Yeah, without without without Soderbergh like going. I always call it the Donnie Brasco effect. He's a good fellow and he's alright. And it's kind of someone shouting about you. And he, he does that a lot. Very quiet. Yeah. Spielberg does it too and he does it as Well, I've heard so many filmmakers and screenwriters who've come on the show who just like, yes, even opened this door for me. And so it's really fascinating to see these kind of guys do that.

Greg Mottola 15:10
He's very, it's very unselfish. And it's, it's, I mean, it's totally authentic. He just, he, if he thinks, you know, your hearts in the right place, and you could do something interesting, he wants to help you, and He will, and now he's the greatest guy. I also had an interesting, this is a daytripper story, which, which is sort of another corner of the filmmaking business, which is that two days before we're gonna start shooting the film, I got a call in my shitty little tenement apartment on Thompson street. So from James L. Brooks, who I'd never met, and don't have, we had my number. It turns out, I had given us a copy of my script to a friend who had a friend at the New Yorker who was good friends with James L. Brooks. And James likes to you know, he likes he told his friend at The New Yorker, have you ever read a script you think is interesting, you hear about a young filmmaker, I want to, you know, I want to know who's out there. I want to try and help people. So somehow, my script for daytrippers got into got onto James Brooks, his desk and, and, and months had passed. And unbeknownst to him, I was about to make it on a shoestring. And he called me up and said, I really love the script. What's going on with it? I'd like to help you make it and I said, Well, we're shooting in two days. And he said, what's the budget? And I say, Well, we have $60,000 It was like a long silence who's like, No, I said, What's the budget?

Alex Ferrari 16:40
Craft services for the first week.

Greg Mottola 16:42
Yeah, exactly. And so and so I told him how we were making in who was in and he said, Well, you know, obviously, I don't want to stop you. If I were to get involved, I do have some notes. And I would do it on a different scale and and it would be a different kind of cast and I don't want to screw you up, just know that I like this enough that I would help you make it if you wanted to make it a bigger budget. And, and I was credibly flattered. I think that guy is great. And, and I slept on it the next day I called the bank. So I just, you know, I feel like I have to follow through. You know, all these people are ready to go. And as tempting as it is, I'm gonna go ahead and make it and and being a huge man. She said, Well, you know, $60,000 is a little ridiculous. I'm just gonna send you a check for $10,000 Just make me a silent partner, whatever other investors are getting, give me you know, the same proportionate amount. And the day we started shooting, I got a DHL package that had a check for $10,000 from James L. Brooks. I mean, not knowing me whatsoever. Just never done anything before except for a student film. Just based on the script, that guy sent me your 10,000 bucks. Which, which, when, when you're working on $60,000, that's huge. That's a huge addition to your budget. And yeah, it was 95, the end of 94 when we were starting shooting, and you know, that's, that was a big deal. And I'm forever grateful. And I've, you know, since hung out with him a bit, and we tried to make a movie together. It didn't all come together. But you know, I will, I will always love that man. And, you know, it's like people say to me, young people say how do you get started? And I say, get really lucky, and hope that people like Steve. James Brooks, take pity on you. I don't know what to tell you. I got super fucking lucky.

Alex Ferrari 18:46
It's my favorite. I asked that question all the time on the show. And I heard Quinton once, say, at a panel somewhere, I think at ComiCon. I heard him years ago, years ago for like 15 years ago. And some kids like how do you make it into the film business? He's like, right, Reservoir Dogs. He goes, I don't know any other way to break into the business. Right? Reservoir Dogs, direct Reservoir Dogs. That's how I did it.

Greg Mottola 19:13
Yeah, I mean, you know, daytrippers got my foot in the door. And almost, I almost got a second film made that was set up at Sony. That was real labor of love. And unfortunately, even we were in greenlit, we were in pre production, and the studio got cold feet and thought it was a little too indie a little too depressing. And I was like, yeah, it's depressing. That's what I did. They put it in turnaround, so that one didn't get made. And then eventually, I said, Well, let's go to LA and direct a lot of TV and then once again, I was super lucky. But yeah, I mean, what I tell the one thing I try to tell other, like when I go to Columbia film or something and speak with students there is there are different ways to skin a cat. The way I chose was get a real The great cast of actors who are working professional actors who are taking, we're taking, you know, shity shity, sag special low budget salary. And don't use that much of their time, shoot it as fast as possible. That was that was how I did it. I shot daytrippers in about 15 days, and, and was thus able to get people like Stanley Tucci and Campbell Scott and Parker Posey, and, and, and Mira, and, and, you know, I couldn't ask them to do that for, you know, meet me every weekend for the next seven months, and we'll make this film. But you can't ask your friends to meet you every weekend for the next seven months. And if you've got some really charismatic, interesting people, you know, who are patient, and who will say, okay, when you call me and say the lights really good. Let's go shoot the scene. Now it's gonna look really pretty. Or, you know, I got this location for the next two hours, come meet me. You know, that is a way to do it. I mean, you can take a really long time to make a movie, if that allows you to get all the coverage you want. You just have to have people in the movie who love you enough to put up with your bullshit.

Alex Ferrari 21:14
Which, which, yeah, I mean, look, it's an insanity. What we do is a general statement, and the independent filmmaker as a creature is one of the most insane of the bunch, without question because, I mean, unlike you, at this point in your career, you have success in your career, you've built a career for yourself. And when you're starting a project, there's, you know, there's risk and things like that. But when you're starting out, you're doing the work without ever knowing if it's gonna pay off, and so many filmmakers in today's world, because there's so many. I mean, when you were coming up in the 90s, it costs still cost money to make a movie, even $60,000. If there still needed to be a technical amount of knowledge to make it look presentable, you shooting film, you needed a real DP. Now everybody in their mother can make a feature film look good. But now who can know how you're going to get seen?

Greg Mottola 22:06
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's, you know, as we all know, there, it's hard to get on a screen and in great indie films do get on screens. Even more, so we can get to this later then sort of mid tier entertainments, like confess flash, actually, I have a very hard time getting on screen, because because Hollywood puts most of those kinds of movies straight to streaming. But even for an indie film to get on streaming, you know, it's, it's you have to you kind of have to hit that home run and make something like Coda or, or everything everywhere, all at once, something that's going to, that's really going to land with an audience, but someone will get behind it in some way. And there are there are, thank God still art house theaters, places that will show that are dedicated to showing new new foreign films and new American Indies. But yeah, because a lot of people can make a film. There are a lot of films.

Alex Ferrari 23:19
It's a gluttony in the marketplace. Without question, there's just so many. I mean, I think Sundance got 40 or 50,080 1000s of submissions last year or something. Oh, my God, like something insane. And there's like 125 films, including shorts, picked. So like the, the level of you even, you know, that wasn't the case when you guys were in the 90s. There were there were still a lot, but it wasn't the competition wasn't as fierce. And I always I always love asking this question of, you know, guys, and filmmakers of that time, because like, Do you like it? When I had burns on the show? I go, Ed, do you think brothers with Mala would make it today? And he's like, Absolutely not. would have would have been lost in I had no stars in and nobody you know, so I'll ask you the same question. Do you think day trippers if it showed up today, I mean, with this cast, obviously, because now there are big stars but generally speaking, what do you think the chances of it actually finding an audience's today?

Greg Mottola 24:15
Hey, look, we got rejected from Sundance back then. So we wouldn't even Yeah, that was I took some pride in that. That was the year they rejected us and swingers so it's like, okay, well, you're in good company rejected by another with another good movie. Yeah, no, I think absolutely not. It would be it you know, it was so modest. The, you know, it's comedic. Comedy is less serious.

Alex Ferrari 24:44
It's not real filmmaking. Comedy. Yeah. Right.

Greg Mottola 24:47
Yeah. Even though like in the history of American film, if you if you went through the list of what people actually remember so many of them are comedies, or silent movies. You remember, like 90% of them are comedies?

Alex Ferrari 25:03
Because it was easy to translate back then. Yeah, Chaplin, and Keaton and all those guys. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 25:08
But still not to get on the comedy versus drama. Thanks to them both. It's yeah, I think it would be I don't, I have no idea how I could one could break through. I mean, I mean, there's a lot of movies with political conscience consciousness that, I think is great. But I'm sure now there's tons of them too. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be really hard for people coming up to figure out how to get their foot in the door. I, you know, I was very stubborn at the beginning, I thought I was just going to write and direct my own stuff. I'm going to be an auteur. And then, and then I started after my second film didn't get made, I started to try and write a third one and had writer's block. And I've ever, you know, slight propensity towards depression and writing became basically napping. And I was in New York, and running out of money quickly and thinking shit, I'm gonna have to go back to the job I hated that paid my way through film school. And then I got a call from Judd Apatow, who said, Do you want to come to LA and do undeclared? And I think before I hung up the phone, I was in his office. He's like, I didn't, I didn't offer you the job yet. I just saw

Alex Ferrari 26:32
Like a smoke outline of you was in the front like a cartoon. Like yeah, exactly. So you saw it. So is that how you got involved in Superbad?

Greg Mottola 26:42
Yes, I went doing undeclared. Which was a weird process only in that it was only in one season, but it was done in three different groupings. Because they'd say, okay, you can we'll let you do seven. And then they start to air and it's like, okay, people seem to like it enough. We'll let you do a couple more. And then they let's do a couple more, and then they canceled it. So I was back and forth. But I did like five or six of those. So I was around Judd, and you know, it was a great writing staff. It was Rodney Rothman, Nick Stoller, Jenny Connor, all these people. Jake Kasdan was one of the directors, I became friends with all these people. It was like a really fun group. And of course, Rogen and and so, one day toward the end of the final batch of undeclared. I was told there's gonna be a reading of Seth's script that he wrote with his buddy Evan, of Superbad that they were trying to get made with Seth and Jason steagle is the needs. And it was pretty much the funniest script I've ever heard. And it had a great authenticity to it. Because, you know, Seth and Evan Goldberg were writing about their lives. They started a version of this when they were kids. They wrote The only joke that survived the kid version was the name Nick lovin, which only I think a 13 year old could think of. I mean, nothing, you could never top it. And so So and but it was amazing. And it at the end of it just said, Would you consider directing it if we can get it set up? And I was like, Fuck, yeah. I you know, even even I was still a bit of a recovering snob, and I thought, well, teen movies. I was like, Fuck, yeah. What am I an idiot?

Alex Ferrari 28:33
I mean, Orson Welles never did a teen movie, how?

Greg Mottola 28:38
Exactly. I remembered, you know, Bergman, and Fellini did teen movie, so that's okay.

Alex Ferrari 28:46
You know what's interesting? When I was moving to LA from Florida, I was 2007 2008. And I remember the marketing blitz for that movie, which was arguably at the time one of the most brilliant marketing pushes for a small film. It wasn't a massive tentpole stretch. It became a tentpole film afterwards, but it was just I mean, I was I was I was taking meetings, I was doing the water bottle tour on some of my projects around town. And we were like, people were like, Yeah, we need something like super bad before it even came out before it even came out. They were like, Yeah, we need something like a super bad thing. Like that's lightning in a bottle. I was like, What the hell is like when it's super bad. I saw the trailer like that looks freaking hilarious. And then it came out and it exploded. I mean, in a massive way even culturally in the zeitgeist MC Levin is still MC Levin like I know

Greg Mottola 29:41
I still see kids with the McClellan ID T shirt.

Alex Ferrari 29:46
It's it's, it's it was insane. So I have to ask you, like you were the kind of thrust into you know, being the belle of the ball in Hollywood for a moment. There's always that moment that if you're lucky, you have a big hit, and then everybody wants to work with you. What was that kind of hurricane? That MC lovin super bad hurricane like being in the center of it?

Greg Mottola 30:06
Well, you know, I, the first time we screened it, we did a test screening. And it went incredibly well. And I was sitting with Bill Hader and build nudged me and sort of look at the girls behind us. And they were like holding each other and crying at the end of the film. I was like, Wait, I didn't expect that. But, but I didn't like when I first heard it, I thought the way in to this movie is that is the ending, which is that hovering behind everything is the fact that they're gonna get separated soon. And that's going to be the first big test of them. The first big loss in their lives like this, this is the scariest thing that's ever happened to them is losing this, this best friend who helps you go through adolescence not knowing anything really about women and how to get how to score. Talk to a girl. And the fact that they're both really scared that underneath it all they're really scared that like even though Jonah Hill's character says the most horrible things, Jonah intuitively got it, he's the only actor who came in and play that character, as you could tell under the bluster was terror. And that made it acceptable that he said such terrible things because he's, he's not toxic masculinity. He's living in a world of toxic masculinity. And he's trying to survive it. And he's trying to, he's trying it on because that's what he thinks you're supposed to do. And what he learns over the course of the movie is that's not him. And that's not how it works. If you want any if we want a woman to respect you, and get to actually know her, and then that's okay, that's what everything's leading up to. So we have to just keep that simmering underneath the movie. So anyway, I thought, you know, that'll give it a humanity. That'll make it feel real. Plus, we get this great luck of that nobody was making our rated teen movies anymore. Right? Yeah, it was, like PG 13. Kind of glossy, you know, fine movies, but they they they didn't have that. That chaotic, irreverent, but it was really on your nose and adults thing.

Alex Ferrari 32:23
Yeah, it was it was the it was, I think that was the overcorrection of the 80s of the revenge of the nerds and the poor keys. And, you know, and all of those kinds of, you know, classic teen movies that were all hard ours, I mean, hard, hard hours in the 80s. But then it was they overcorrected. And then like, hey, it's been a while. And then America American Pie was probably one of the I think it wasn't that that wasn't 90s. Wasn't that the American Pie? Yeah. Yeah. But had been a while since American Pie when Superbad showed up. Yeah, exactly.

Greg Mottola 32:52
And in fact, when I went to that reading, it took three years for Judd to get the film greenlit. I mean, everyone was saying, we don't want to do an R rated comedy. Yeah, the script is good, but R rated comedies. Like why would we make a movie with the people with the audience? It's for can't come see it? And it's like, of course, they're gonna come see it, they're gonna find a way into the theater. I mean, I wasn't 17 When I saw Animal House, but I thought so so anyway, so the film, you know, we knew that people liked it. We showed it at Comic Con, which was like a rock concert, vibe. It was amazing. And so it's like, I can't believe like how well, but still, no one knows these actors really, will this translate in a bigger way, but Sony was selling the hell out of it, they were doing a great job. And the first day when I got a call, saying, we these are the projected numbers for the weekend, and it was like late August, mid, late August, and it was a time when like, it was like a dumping ground for moving. There's not considered a time you're going to open a movie that's going to open it millions of dollars, whatever, whatever was considered good back in that year, I forget. But anyway, we opened at a number that was considered very good. That times, especially for an August movie, and and it was so bizarre. I mean, I'd go on the street, and I'd hear people talking about it. I hear people talking about on the subway. And and it was, it was crazy. I mean, it was it. I you know, I have to be honest, it was super fun to be attached to something like that. And I loved everyone involved. I loved, you know, all the people who made it with me. And it was great to share that with this group of people that I had such affection for some of whom I know, you know, Judd and Sapphira, already known for quite a while, and I'd work with Michael Cera on Arrested Development. And yeah, it was a thrill. I have to say it's a thrill. At the time, I thought I may never experienced this thrill again and that All, that's remains true. But that's fine. That's fine.

Alex Ferrari 35:06
It was literally lightning in a bottle. I mean, look, I mean, those are skis hit the matrix, you know, you know, they'd never really hit the matrix again. You know, it's like, it's okay. You know, and you still, you still have a fantastic career. But you're right. There are those moments in time that you're, I've, again, when I've spoken to some other directors have had these kinds of kind of just rocket launchers. A lot of them said, Man, I wish I would have enjoyed it more. I didn't know that this was not this, this situation was really Right Place Right Time. Right, right film. And it will never be like this again, even if it may be I have another hit later on. It's never going to be the first one. It's never going to be this again.

Greg Mottola 35:51
I think I think I had some sense of telling myself you better appreciate this. I mean, this may may be the stupidest person alive. But shortly after Superbad came out, Judd asked me if I wanted to possibly direct bridesmaids, and I was trying to get Adventure Land set up. And because I am an indie at heart, I decided to pursue Adventure Land and pursue one of the other most loved successful comedies of all time.

Alex Ferrari 36:26
I've never heard of that, sir what movies that I've never heard.

Greg Mottola 36:29
And and, you know, on paper, everything about bridesmaid sounded fantastic and and, and I loved Kristen Wiig, and I ended up begging her to be an Adventure Land and you know, so I I may be frittered away a chance to build on a kind of more mainstream success. But I am I am a half indie guy. I really am. I mean, I don't Yeah, I don't regret making Adventure Land, you know, wasn't big box office movie, but I have to say like, it's for certain people. Like, I have more people come up to me and talk to me about that movie than Superbad, possibly because they think Judd Apatow Patrick Superbad. Now. Although I do remember one review of adventure that was really cruel, it said, Well, this proves that it was Judd Apatow was hand that needs Superbad as fun oh, oh, dude, it's a different movie.

Alex Ferrari 37:27
A movie? Oh, come on. And you still remember it? And you still remember it?

Greg Mottola 37:33
Oh, yeah. I don't remember any of the good reviews.

Alex Ferrari 37:35
I was gonna say there must have been 10s of 1000s of good reviews.

Greg Mottola 37:39
Very well reviewed. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 37:40
There's the one that you like, son of a bitch. That dude.

Greg Mottola 37:44
The thing of thing about indie filmmaking and making something personal that you know, some people are, it's just not going to be for them is that it's that feeling of like seeing a movie and saying, I know this is for me. And it's not for everyone, but it is really speaks to me. Right? And that's, you know, that's another kind of very satisfying thing to pursue. There are certain Fellini films that I love, and I know like, a lot of people are gonna get bored and a Fellini movie, but a movie like nights of Cabiria moves me in a way that I will never get from a certain kind of mainstream movie. It's just, it's a different experience. And I want to, I always want to try to be able to do both. And I thought, that'd be cool to get to do both. So So you know, yeah. So I, I've gone back and forth. Now, of course, I'm one of those people out there clamoring to get an indie filmmaker. So I wrote a script that I've been working on for years in between projects that I love, and I feel it's the best thing I've ever written. I've only shown it to a few possible financiers. And the basic line is like, well, this is more drama than comedy. And unless you come back with some really huge stars, I don't I don't see you getting as financed.

Alex Ferrari 38:56
You know it I want and I want to just hold on that for a second because so many people listening to this show think that, Oh, it's great Matala. You know, he's had he made these big hits, and he's had a great career and he's worked so much. He can get anything done. The more I talk to people on the show, the more I understood long time ago, that it doesn't matter who you are. Even Spielberg couldn't get Lincoln financed. Yeah, I mean, it's a struggle all the time. Almost all

Greg Mottola 39:29
Yeah, I mean, I'm basically like, I do want to do another indie soonish. And I'm thinking if I can't do this one the way I see it, because I don't want to do it the wrong way. It's a movie that does require it would be like an eight to $12 million film. I don't see a version of it. That's $3 million. But I could write something that I could do for $3 million dollars. I mean, the call Hall of center, wonderful filmmaker, wonderful writer and she designs her movies that that could be made for a number that that's that works in the marketplace and people's minds and she That's very true that way. And she keeps making really great movies. And so maybe I need to think about that, as I'm trying to attach the right cast to the one that's a little more expensive, and see if somebody, you know, find the right or the right or maybe the right moment in my career where I can cash in, uh, you know, it helped me get eventually made because Superbad was about to come out. And there's enough buzz about it, that I eventually got set up before Superbad even came out. But it was, you know, I got a lot of passes. And and a lot of people telling me, yeah, well, we'd like the funny side characters, but who, you know, the central story is just kind of like a love story.

Alex Ferrari 40:42
How, this is another thing that so many filmmakers and screenwriters have to deal with on a daily basis. And I think people in general in the creative industry, is, how do you deal with the nose? Because this business is all about knows and no, and the doors closing on you? All the time? So especially when you're coming up? How do you keep going, what is that thing that keeps driving you to keep going, when everyone's just telling you no kid, you're not, it's not going to happen.

Greg Mottola 41:08
You just die inside, and then you're fine.

Alex Ferrari 41:12
I yours years.

Greg Mottola 41:17
You know, it's still it's still a struggle to this day, but you just take the attitude of, it's a real waste of time, too, to lick your wounds for too long, I feel sorry for yourself. And I made that mistake, when my second film almost got made, and didn't I spent years trying to set it up elsewhere. And, and it I couldn't, and it was just it was, you know, the writing was kind of on the wall that it wasn't the right time to try and get that movie made. Ironically, people have come to me and tried to make that script, but there is a legal problem with someone who I was in business with at the time that I've never been able to solve. And that person has never let me free. So ironically, I could have made that movie, but I can't. But you know, that attitude of like, put it in a drawer, maybe the day will come is actually not impossible. And, and just, you know, fuck it. If I'm doing a pass on this grip, because it's a New York City story, I was going to go out with it a little bit wider to try and finance it, then the pandemic hit New York City changed a lot. And I thought, it's not going to seem viable to people. The way New York City is now during the pandemic now that New York City's pandemic is never going to end it appears but it's more itself. I'm doing a rewrite kind of address New York City at this very moment. It's a real sort of, you know, Hannah and Her Sisters multi character in this case, it's three stories that are being told simultaneously that are all connected. But it's kind of like three main characters and you're following them and an inter cuts between their stories. And it's ambitious, and it's it's, it's, uh, you know, I'll, I'll do my Polish, I'll send it around. I'll try and attach a few more actors. And if and if it seems like it's not the right time, I'll put it down and do something else. I won't. I won't waste time in this

Alex Ferrari 43:25
Seems like a film that would have been financed easily in the 90s. Because those are the kinds of movies that were being made and

Greg Mottola 43:30
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. God dammit.

Alex Ferrari 43:35
It was a big super battle chi teen damn comedy. So I always always like to ask this about of directors because we all you know, when we're on set, there's a day that the entire world's coming crashing down around us. You've lost your camera, you lost your actor, you lost your location, the sun's going down. You can't make your day. What was that moment for you on any of your projects, including the new one, we're going to talk about to talk about fledge that you felt that the entire thing was coming crashing down around you, and how did you overcome it? And yes, I know every day is like that, but there's that one day that is just like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it.

Greg Mottola 44:15
Well, for me, luckily, it was the very first day of my very first movie, we loaded out all of our equipment in our production office on daytrippers in New York City. Took our super 16 camera we at one and our small package of lights in a truck to a location on Long Island where we're going to shoot the first set of scenes with hope Davison Stanley Tucci, and I get to the location, we start to rehearse and my ad who's one of my good friends from film schools named Brian Lindstrom. He's talking sort of nervously or worry has a word expression on his face and I'm I'm sensing this behind me and I'm thinking what the hell could be happening. And he's like, just just keep rehearsing, doing a deal. And so finally, we work out the first scene, now we're ready to set up the camera, he said, If here's the camera has been stolen, and we trace it back to the loading of the truck in New York the day before, it somehow got taken off the sidewalk or something, and nobody noticed. And that's, you know, low budget film, and a lot of people working on the film, were first timers. And, and, you know, mistakes happen. So, you know, we don't have the budget to really absorb this problem. To come back and pay for locate this is one of the few locations we're paying for. And we had all these things locked down for the next few days, which, you know, going to lose actors, because they had lives and careers. So they scrambled and found another camera in Manhattan by the time they got it to set we had about two hours. And I shot, like three scenes and two hours

Alex Ferrari 46:16
I'm assuming and a lot of oners,

Greg Mottola 46:18
A lot of oners or a lot of one one takes and and you know, like various you know, man, what's the you make plans and God laughs at them. Like a lot of my my shot was went out the window and and you know, we shot in and we got something and it works. Okay. And we put it in the movie. You know, I remember the next day we're shooting in my parents house on Long Island in this town called Dix hills. And a bunch of us slept on the floor of my parent's den. Because we didn't have hotel rooms. And people didn't feel like doing the drive back and forth all crashed and sleeping bags on the floor. And I remember waking up surrounded by other crew members, thinking this is it. I'm done. I'll never you know that whatever we got yesterday had to be terrible. I can't do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I've never been to film before. This, I just felt a complete crisis. And then people started to show up, we started to set up and I'm like, I'm is there Can I run? I know the neighborhood. Well, I grew up here. I know. I know hiding spots. And you know, and then yeah, then I add mirror looking and be like, Well, where do you want me to stand where you want me to do and I'm like, Buck and mirror will kill me if I try to run she's going to Tufts. So I was like, Okay, I have to pretend I know what I'm doing. And I don't I'm not freaking out. And and luckily because I'm I'm an introvert and pretty poker faced I could I most of my anxiety goes straight to ulcers so I I think my way through it, and and then watching them act started to get exciting. And the actors would have suggestions that were making the scene better and started to get more and more exciting. And, and I started you know, Okay, should I freak out and say like, my parents are here do they realize I have hired two actors to play them? That's, that's a little weird. But my mom made a big tray of baked ziti for us to eat. And obviously, and and I started to really enjoy it and I realized I like being on set it's terrifying. And it's you feel so alive and I love actors. And I am so grateful to anyone on the crew that they're willing to help me make something I got over it pretty quickly. I'm always I always get a little anxious right at the end of prep before shooting. It creeps back in this feeling of oh fuck What if I fuck this up? Or there's so much to think about there's so many variables can you control them so I'm gonna steal my goddamn camera again.

Alex Ferrari 49:07
You still wake up in a cold sweat over that even on the

Greg Mottola 49:10
I'm still trying to crack that case? I'm still investigating in my spare time. Who the hell in that camera call and the cold case?

Alex Ferrari 49:18
And that cameras worth what 15 $15 Now $20

Greg Mottola 49:21
Exactly. The bastard only got that on eBay.

Alex Ferrari 49:26
Listen, I tell you what I mean I have to had a full blown panic attack on my first shoot day. Like I had a full blown panic attack. Like I had to you should. I literally was the biggest thing was shooting an action sequence for the short film I was doing. And I go guys, can you give me five I gotta go to the restroom. I went to the bathroom and I literally had a full blown panic attack for 1015 minutes, had to like meditate. And I didn't even meditate at the time. I was just like, I just need to calm myself like water on the face and then just like okay, there's like 20 people out there and we've got an action sequence to shoot and I just No He went out and did it. But it's it's something that they don't teach you in film school. They don't talk about this in film school. But this is the reality of what it's like being a director on set at any level, whether it's on a $200 million movie or a $60,000 movie like daytrippers, like you know, shit happens to your camera getting stolen on day one is a pretty rough.

Greg Mottola 50:18
Yeah, and that's

Alex Ferrari 50:22
But, but I'm flush you didn't have that problem. No one stole a camera, Fletch?

Greg Mottola 50:25
No one stolen camera we yeah, we've managed to hold on to all of our equipment.

Alex Ferrari 50:32
Tell me, tell me about so let's go into this new film, confess flach which is, you know, for a for a certain demographic of my audience who is has a little gray in their beard like I do. will remember the original Fletch, which is a legendary movie series by the the great Chevy Chase. And when I was when I was pitched this for you to come on the show was like, Oh, they made a movie called Fletch. Did they know that there was like I couldn't. Because it was like it was Jon Hamm starring in it. And I was like, and I was watching that. I was watching Jerry Taylor. I was like, man, and then I saw the logo. I was like, Oh, it is flat. Okay, they're remaking it. Okay, fine. Okay, because it was just so different because it didn't feel like the original. It didn't have the kookiness of the original. It's a completely different approach to it, which is wonderful. And I did get to see and I loved it. So tell me how you got involved with Fletch and how you approached dealing with a movie that for a certain generation has a shadow over which is chevy chase this kind of shadow over it.

Greg Mottola 51:32
In fact that the second movie I was going to direct the got set up at Sony was gonna start with John CUSEC. Steve's on and Chevy Chase, and I met with Chevy a bunch of times, and he did table read. And I was so excited. I was I've always been a huge fan and I grew up you know, watching SNL from the first season, I was Braden, eight or nine years old. And, and that was when it fell apart. One of the things I was most sad about is not getting a chance to work with Chevy. So cut too many years later, Jon Hamm, who I'd worked with twice before, and has a friend now. We were hanging out, he said, What did you think of doing a Flash movie, Miramax owns all the books except the first one. And then he told me when he saw the first movie, he loved it and then discovered there were books and read them and saw that the books have a slightly different tone in the movie that Chevy brought his own style of comedy and really influenced the Flash movie. And that there was another way to go with it. And he loved it. He claims he was so broke. As a teenager, he stole the books from Rome, a Walden books store, the various fudge books that are published and thanks. So I think they're probably not I think they're out of business. So they're not going to come after him. We should be okay. Okay. So so I had always heard the books are great. And I love detective stories, but I'd never gotten around to them. So I went off. And I love the first movie, for sure. And really enjoyed the second one. So I went off and read a bunch of them. The one John was thinking would make the most sense, was confessed flach. That book starts with him already having retired from being an investigative reporter, but he can't keep out of the business of investigating mysteries. And it gets sucked into not one, but two. And I thought it was fantastic. And I also saw where you could go a different way with it. And I felt as much as I love Chevy. I felt like I'd seen a lot of sort of 80s Reboot nostalgia fest movies that some are great, some are less great. And I just thought that doesn't interest me as much as a filmmaker. It's you know, I did the movie, Paul, which has an enormous amount of paying homage to Spielberg and Lucas and 80s science fiction, fantasy movies, and I love doing it. And that was really fun. That was baked into it. And that was, to me, that made sense. But in this case, I thought, you know, there's a new generation, I think that might not know this character, and they're between TV and movies, there have been 15, Philip Marlowe's, the famous Raymond Chandler detective character was played by Humphrey Bogart and Elliott Gould, and James Garner, and a whole lot of people. And I thought, you know, people have tried to revive it, and I can understand why it's been hard and it's in the shadow of Chevy's performance, which is unique. He's a unique, brilliant comic of our time. I thought the only way to go really is to go a different way because trying to impersonate Chevy, I thought would be a disaster and John didn't want to do that either. So um,

Before I was involved, this ReadySet borrow was working on an adaptation and and I'd read some of his outlines and we consulted he was letting me read pages and My gut feeling was like this is very funny. It's really funny stuff. It feels a little too much like a Chevy version. But I wanted to let ZEV finish his script. And he turned it in and John first words were like this is a great movie for chevy chase but not for me. And so I said let me take a crack at it and I went back to the book Zedd hadn't used as much of the book as I ended up using I went took more characters from the book, we're translating it from 70s to 2020s. So I had to kind of find 2020 is equivalent to some of these characters. But I really I took more stuff from the book I underlined lines I really liked from the book and put them in the script and and thought this is a comedy of manners this is this is you know, this character flechas has a lot of bait in his DNA is baked in a lot of similarities to what Chevy does. But in the books he doesn't have disguises and funny names and isn't quite doesn't quite. And one things I love about the Chevy movies is he just comes into a room and just confuses everybody with this deadpan acting absurd like almost like the Marx Brothers just complete a completely absurd no one knows what's going on. Right? And in that movie, everyone's kind of a straight man to Chevy and I thought, well, there's funny interesting characters. Maybe if we cast this right, we can let them be funny too, and not just be reacting to John. Let him interact and something I felt in this series of flesh books is Fletcher's a character likes weirdos and loners and outsiders, people who are authentic and he hates phonies. So he any any talks with people will lie to anyone anytime, but he has sort of a good heart he does. He does wrong things to make the world a little more, right. He doesn't believe in the cops and the justice system getting there. He does it his own way. And I thought well, that's great. And I think John is being both a comedic and dramatic actor he could really kill this and I saw the style little maybe a little more old fashioned dialogue driven talky comedy, less slapstick, and broad more behavioral comedy with hopefully, you know, still a bunch of good lines and I stole a bunch of ZEVs really good lines in his script. And I took a lot from the book. And and this being a genre hadn't quite worked in there wasn't like a semi autobiographical thing. I did what I've watched people like Judd do which is get some of your really smart comedy friends to read it and pitch you some some ideas which really helped me unlock some things that I could write to. Bill Hader gave us great ideas. John's really good friends with Robert Carlock 30 Rock he gave us great ideas he gave the script to Neil Gaiman, who Shawn knows from Good Omens Neil Gaiman loves the flesh books and, and I was so thrilled because he liked the script. And he gave me he gave me a cup of like two notes that I absolutely did the made things much better. So, you know, I thought, Well, why not take advantage of all these great people? I know that's something take advantage of the great cast that I think we can get. And that's where we began

Alex Ferrari 58:21
I mean, look, if you've got to deal game and on top I mean, if you're gonna Yeah, I mean, I'll take advantage of that. You know, what kind of idiot we're not. Shit. That's, that's amazing. Like, yeah, Neil, do you what do you think so yeah, here's a couple notes. Like, sure. It's great if you could get that access. But that's me. That's, that's remarkable. No, it was a really fun movie. And the way you approached it was really an A John's performance is I've been a fan of John's. One of my favorite things John ever did was the SNL sketch with Michael Buble. A Hammond bubbly, one of the I mean, my wife and I watched that, like every every, like six months, like you remember it, let's, let's bring that back. It's just his performance. It's a John is such a great great, great comedic actor. And he has such great timing. Um, he's a fantastic dramatic actor, but in this movie gets to play both really, really, really well.

Greg Mottola 59:13
Well, that's what I was excited about for to get to put John in the middle of you know, these weirdos and let him do both and let him Yeah, and let him really lean into his timing and, and, you know, ya have a real sustained comedic performance with be a very specific guy who's unconventional who looks you know, like there's a lot of sending up rich people in the movie and he looks like he could walk into a yacht club or a really upscale art dealers gallery or rich person's apartment or whatever, and, and they all let him in and they'd all open up to him. They think he's one of them. And I really believe Fletch has a different value system and all these people, he just happens to look like, you know, handsome loss. And so and so he can, he can go around taking advantage of that to to get the information he wants and to trick people. And so I thought he's kind of perfect. If you go back to the character from Book Three, he is a character in the book is younger than than John is so but what kind of worked about confess Fletcher's? He's a retired investigative reporter. So that made some sense that he's, he's been away from this world, and he's kind of getting sucked back into a version of it. And you know, some people have reacted to like, you can't make Fletch with someone who wasn't like Chevy Chase. And I think I think I can see that. That's what that's what they want. They want, you know, they want more movies with Chevy doing the part

Alex Ferrari 1:00:51
98 Chevy from 1980 Something which he is now and I

Greg Mottola 1:00:55
And then I would have loved that too. I wish I wish they had I mean, maybe they made a mistake by making the second movie not based on one of the books, maybe they should have tried to stay a little more faithful to the books, who knows. It's not for me to decide. But But I would have loved to have seen Chevy do all the books. But at the same time, you know, the long goodbye by Raymond Chandler has been adapted probably three or four times.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:21
Stars but for God's sakes, yeah,

Greg Mottola 1:01:24
I thought I thought you know, for people some people say this is sacred, you cannot touch it was like now you know, it's it's an adaptation. You know, if it doesn't float your boat, you have to watch. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:36
Like I was I was there at the premiere of Footloose when they made the remake with Craig Brewer, who made the remake of it. And you know, the remake was the remake was fine, but it's not the it's not the Kevin Bacon one. It's just, it's never gonna be the Kevin Bacon. It's a moment in time. Just like Fletch in the 80s was a moment in time that can never be reproduced no matter what you tried to do now?

Greg Mottola 1:01:57
Yeah, exactly. So that's why I thought we'll use a different book. And we'll have a different tone. And we'll you know, we never really talked much about making it a period piece, that's probably wouldn't have been too expensive. Anyway, we had to, you know, part of the way we broke the flesh curse was that we were willing to work really fast and work but within, you know, felt a little more like do daytrippers than I expected. But that's the kind of the way the world now is like, certain they give a billion dollars to Lord of the Rings, and then the rest of us have to have to work on the catering budget from Lord of the Rings.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:36
I mean, but if you were to put a John in a cape, I mean, you would have gotten at least another 50 million.

Greg Mottola 1:02:42
Yeah, yeah. If you can we make Fletch

Alex Ferrari 1:02:45
I can imagine in the studio, get flush superpowers, can we? Can he be like a mutant that dissolves Croc?

Greg Mottola 1:02:54
Yeah, just you know, people who love the books won't have a problem with that.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:00
Which is millions of people. Now when is it coming out? And when people can where can people see it?

Greg Mottola 1:03:05
It's what's getting kind of this hybrid really is because we live in a brave new world where where, you know, the pandemic screwed with movie distribution. And this kind of medium mesh comedy is adult skewing to a bit. I mean, it doesn't really, you know, it's not a lot of pop culture references and and, and dirty shit like and super bad. I apologize. They can't do it every time. And and so you know, it's not perceived as necessarily a big theatrical moneymaker, which I get, especially as moment time is everything all bets are off. People are scrambling trying to figure out what are movies now. Anyway. So we're getting this limited released in theaters starting this Friday the 16th It'll be in about 450 theaters around the country in the main major markets. You know, it's not getting a Top Gun level promotion. But I didn't expect it to I'm actually quite honestly, I always thought this will go straight to streaming in this moment in time, the kind of size of movie it is and the style of it being not super broad. And how many movies how many comedies have even been on screens lately? It's I feel a lot.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:27
I can't fit in the theater system right now.

Greg Mottola 1:04:31
Come from studios.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:34
No, no, not not in a big not big releases. No.

Greg Mottola 1:04:38
I mean, like you know, these big Yeah, all these you know, like, Kevin Hart. Movies go to netflix. I mean, he was he suffered any BS Yeah, yeah, definitely tons of movie. He's his movies made tons of money in the box office and now they're all going to Netflix and

Alex Ferrari 1:04:54
I mean, the rock is going to Netflix for God's sakes. I mean, yeah, black Adam coming out soon, but But yeah, I mean, when you got someone like one of the biggest movie stars in the world going straight to streaming whatnot going straight it started in streaming. But yeah, I mean, could read notice could read notice if it was released? Because that's an action comedy. Could that have made a couple 100 million dollars in the box office?

Greg Mottola 1:05:15
Yeah. You think, but you know, but the pandemic changed things and yeah, and and, and you know, people are strapped for money and I get it. But so I'm glad that it's getting kind of theatrical, I see it as kind of an indie release. It's sort of like getting the thing that's, that has changed. But it's interesting is that even maybe a year ago or two years ago, the major chains, AMC Regal, so forth, would not take a movie that's also opening on demand the same day, and we are opening on demand the same day. And they're, the major chains are willing to show Fletch, so so

Alex Ferrari 1:05:57
They don't have a choice. Now,

Greg Mottola 1:05:58
I mean, they're negotiating. Exactly the you know, the whole, like, we won't take anything with less than a 90 day window has all gone away. And, and which is good for me, because now some people can see it in a theater. And I think, I think you know, because a lot of the jokes are not pointed out, they're a little more dry, or just happened without, without elbowing the audience in the ribs. I think it I've seen it with, with an audience a few times. And it, it plays nicely. I think people actually laugh and focus in a slightly different way. But I'll be happy if you watch it on any form. If you watch it on your Apple Watch, I'll be grateful. And then I was just gonna say, at the end of October, it's going to be it's going to move to showtime.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:47
Okay, so perfect, perfect. I tell everybody, they have to go watch it. It's a really, really fun film, whether you like the Chevy one or not. It's just a good film stand alone. It's, it's a really nice approach to that material without question. Now, I do have to ask you one question, because you worked on one of my favorite shows of the last, you know, 1015 years. newsroom is it was a masterpiece of television. It's one of those it's up there for me up there with the sopranos and Breaking Bad. It's just such a well written show and such a well done show. And you were obviously a co executive producer on it. You worked with Aaron, I just have to ask you, what was it? What did you how did you approach working with Aaron Sorkin and how was that collaboration on the newsroom?

Greg Mottola 1:07:32
Well, it's I mean, yeah, Aaron's brilliant, there's no question of that. And I, you know, for better or worse, I thought, well, let's up approach the pilot slightly differently than his other shows, which are very sort of classical, beautifully directed often by Tommy Shlomi, who's a fantastic director. But I thought I don't want to ape his style. What if we give it a slightly edgier more? You know? All green grass handhelds? Yeah. So dirty or five? Or you know, and I actually ended up getting I've terrible memory the DP who shoots who shot like United?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:23
Oh, yeah. 93 93 Paul's Paul's DP?

Greg Mottola 1:08:27
Yeah, and I can't believe I'm forgetting space and just my terrible I'm getting old. Great guy, great DP who operates himself shoots off Ken loach's movies. And, and we shot everything with three cameras going at all times. I kind of wanted to shoot 35 HPSI Well, that'll, you know, get a little expensive and the cameras are heavy. What about 16? So we shot the pilot on 16 then moved over to digital. And, you know, 16 has its drawbacks, because it is it is Granier and maybe maybe a bit too grainy, but I feel like it was an interesting experiment for the pilot. And the cool thing about pilots is you can change a lot in episode two and people tend not to notice. Like all the offices we built this amazing set for for the pilot which was like the bullpen and the and the control room and the little stage where he does his broadcasts will roll McAvoy sets and it was all live and wired. You could have one camera in the control room with Emily Mortimer another camera with Jeff Daniels and me shooting live. And it was fantastic. It was so much fun and it was exciting. And I think it gave it a it gave it a very special feel. But they didn't want to spend all the money to then build all the offices so we shot on location for the offices and of course they all changed in the second episode. No one's ever no one's ever asked about it. And I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed if I was the fear. So so? Yeah, so we took that approach but with with Aaron's writing, actors need to be fully prepared. The way every scene would start was Aaron would come down to set. We just read it sitting in chairs, and the actors would read it. And Aaron would give notes on performance and and lions and sometimes on punctuation. Aaron's the kind of guy who says, like, No, that's a double dash. You need to clip it at the end, or you need to cut her off exactly at the beginning of this syllable. I mean, here's a musical imposes it in his head. And he wants to he wants it to be acted the way he heard it. Because it's not like he wrote it and said, this is perfect. No, he wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it until the music sounded right to him. So there is there is a real mastery to how he's writing. And some of the actors are used to that some of the actors are in love theater, people are used to it. And so the actors like what the hell and then once they start to do it, they see why he wants it that way. And so often, we would start shooting the scene and slowly speed it up. As we go along. We get the beats down. So the psychology and the behavior all felt right. The moments all felt right. And then I'd say, Okay, now do it a little bit faster, and a little bit faster. So then it starts to feel like an Sorkin which is that incredibly bright people. Yeah, who with, with neurons firing way faster than mine do. And, and, and it's great. It's great. And he's also a lover of, you know, I watched, I watched His Girl Friday a bunch of times before starting because because I was saying this to someone the other day, those are Hollywood movies. The scripts are like 150 pages, because people talk so fucking fast. And that's the way that's the way Aaron writes. And it's so pleasurable when you've got great actors doing it. And that cast cast was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:10
Oh, my God. And Jeff, I mean, Jeff, well, that whole opening monologue on on about America. Oh, my God. I mean, I've seen that on YouTube. 1000 times of like, you know, how America is not great and all that stuff. But the way he did it was so loving, so beautiful, so truthful, so raw, and it's just like, the cadence of a Sorkin script. And it's like, you're right. There's people firing on all cylinders, like everybody is. So like, even the intern in the scene, is smart as a whip and had some amazing luck. That's just the case. So that's a simple that's a circuit with kind of like a Tarantino script. Like Tarantino has his own air vibe of that. And yeah, people don't talk like that. Human beings don't talk like that. But that's what's beautiful about watching. And listening to that.

Greg Mottola 1:12:56
Yeah, that's his. That's his. That's his style. That's his artistic choice. And it comes from theater. And he tends to write scenes that have movements in them. You know, some writers write for the visual medium that something happens and butts up against something else in another scene and butts up against something else and the story unfolds. Aaron writes, like a playwright, and he writes things that happen and unfold in front of the audience. And I think it's totally valid and quite exciting when it's done by a master. Because it is a different experience, watching things change, watching the actors, attitudes change, watching watching them affect each other, in real time in the scene, as opposed to seeing the change happening over a series of you know, over the course of an episode. You're seeing the drama happening in front of you, which sometimes I think people forget is a tool of storytelling. Because they you know, look, I'd love things being cinematic. But there there are a lot of ways to do it. And his way is a really interesting one. Endlessly watchable Thank you.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:11
Thank you for making helping make that show what it is, man. I like literally just love, love love. So sad. When that didn't come back. I wanted more and more

Greg Mottola 1:14:18
I was there's five seconds where they thought they really would revive it in the Trump age. And I think probably the end of the day, they were just like, what, how, how would you even take this on?

Alex Ferrari 1:14:28
Oh, like, I mean, how can you make it? Yeah, you can't like Yeah, I can't even go down that road. No, Greg, I just have a couple questions. Ask all my guests really kind of rapid fire questions. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Greg Mottola 1:14:43
Um, listen to me the longest learn was probably that I shouldn't have touched on this earlier. I insist that I have to be an auteur who writes and directs is on movies. I really thought it was still had cheating to direct other people's words. Uh, that it had to be personal because those are the films that affected me the most. And I realized I'm a slow writer, I'm sometimes a neurotic not terribly confident writer. You know, I have to I have to be doing it for a while to get back into it and believe I can do it. And I also like being on set I really love being on set and in Soderbergh is when the first people said to me, like, it's okay, if you direct someone else's screen screenplay. It's it's fine it's like those take really long time to write spend more time on a set and you'll get better and better at making movies and TV and and it was great advice and and I was so lucky that when I moved to LA I got to work on on declared Arrested Development the comeback? I mean, I worked on only fucking kick ass shows. So so like, you know it with great writing. And then and then later the newsroom and got to work with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost who I absolutely adore. So, yeah, so but then I thought you know, I have done more writing in the last decade. Some things that haven't gotten made in addition to my little indie film, but you know, I take the attitude like I said earlier the lesson is, is it's okay I'm gonna I'm gonna direct everything that I write everything I drag that's okay. And and I'm much happier for it and it's okay to take time to write and and wait till it's ready and but not waste time feeling you know feeling sorry for myself if things fall apart.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:41
And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time.

Greg Mottola 1:16:48
This is fun. You know, it's hard not to pick movies that are giant classics. I know like if I were to be honest 2001 is one of my favorite films of all time. To me it it takes the spectacle movie and turns it into something completely different in our house. Yeah into it it takes a spectacle movie in terms of our house film and yet stills also like a cat and mouse thriller for the whole house section. And is brilliant and gives you so much to to think about and and wonder about, no matter how many times I see it. And when my parents took me to see it when I was nine they fell asleep. And it stuck in my head like a crazy dream for my entire life. So there's that the movie I'd probably if the world was exploding and I was told I can save one movie would probably be eight and a half. I love Fellini deeply. And I love everything about that movie. That movie to me is the most entertaining. Exploration of self that I've ever seen. And, and I love every detail in it. I love how it's shot. I love the music. I love the performances. I just it's another film I can watch a million times now picking a third. It's gonna be a little tricky. Um There was a time where I might have picked a Woody Allen movie, but I'm not going to touch that right now. I mean, to be honest, I can't I can't lie about my experience when I saw those movies. I know what I felt.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:42
Hey, look, all I gotta say is I had someone say the other day is like, can I say any Hall make any halls a great movie? I'm sorry. It's a great movie. It's you know, it's, it's really good. But I understand where you're coming from.

Greg Mottola 1:18:56
I would probably say I probably say Goodfellas. Goodfellas is, you know, being a New Yorker, being I'm half Italian American being a lifelong Scorsese, lover. Of course fascinated with that world, and just the explosion of cinema that movie is but everything is there for a reason. There's there's just it's not it's you know, endlessly inventive. cinematically, but it's not somehow it's not. It doesn't feel show offI it doesn't feel like hey, look at me I can do this. This looks this is cool. It's like it is cool. But it's better than just being cool. It's fucking telling the story and and in immersing you in the emotions, and expressing everything about that world. What's exciting and dangerous and compelling, and just horrifying and awful and vicious and inhuman about that world.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:06
You know that in so many filmmakers, especially when we're starting out, we all want to do the Scorsese shots. We don't want to do the Kubrick shots we don't want to. Yeah, we all want those like, you know, long crane shots, the whiners that this kind of stuff, right? Yeah, but even in Goodfellas, the wonder that everybody wants to try to do which is that bat that going through the kitchen, Steadicam shot, it's not there to show off, it's literally there to tell the story. And is truly don't under like, as a director looking at that scene. I'm like, how do you tell that story without the one? Or like, how do you tell that bit of information about Henry Hill without that one? And I wonder is so economical? In has all this so beautifully done?

Greg Mottola 1:20:47
Yeah, you could tell it in shots, you could break it up into shots, and you can you can show his walking through all those places. But it wouldn't have the emotion of the passing through the kitchen and all the other life going on and ending up at that table on the table being plopped down in front of them. And ending on fucking any young men.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:11
What do you do again, how it construction.

Greg Mottola 1:21:15
I mean, ya know, and it's, it's, and it is, it is incredible mastery of the form. But it isn't just there to show look on the master, it's there because that is the best way to tell that, that that part of the story, and it's yeah, it's amazing. And I can watch that movie. Again and again and again and again. And again, come away from a second boy on mediocre computer.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:40
And how and by the way, and this is the last thing I want to say how many of us growing up look at the masters the Kubrick's the Scorsese's The, the wells, the you know, all Spielberg's, and you look at their films, and you're like, I can't get out of bed because it's just an insane filmmaker. Like, I'll never be Kubrick. I can't get out of why should I even try? It's kind of like, I'll never paint I'll never be Picasso. Of course not. There's only a handful of those masters in the world. But you can do something. I hate to say look, Kubrick would have made an interesting super bad, but but probably not as good as your super bad in my opinion, though, would have been a very into Scorsese could have done an interesting, super bad, no question. But also in I think, as Denzel Washington says, like, you know what scores it's Spielberg could have been an interesting Goodfellas. And Marty could have made an interesting Schindler's List. No question. But those films were built for those filmmakers from their perspective. Yeah. Life. And, and, you know, everyone has that, that that path they walk and that everyone's going to be did actually there's going to be no one that's going to be a Nolan. There's no one that's going to be a Fincher or Soderbergh or Spielberg because they've already taken that mantle. Yeah.

Greg Mottola 1:22:53
Well, there's a great Albert Brooks story. He became friendly with Kubrick because Kubrick really liked comedy. He loved Woody Allen. He loved Albert. Yes. And he talked to strain he, yeah. And he wrote, he became like a kind of a phone friend with Albert Brooks. And at one point, he Albert Brooks was writing last in America. And Kubrick said, let me read it. I'll give you some notes. And so he's like, Oh, my God, Stanley Kubrick is going to read my fucking script. This is amazing. And then the notes came back. He's like, they were terrible. It was really cool. Still, it's like, but they weren't funny. It's like Stanley Kubrick's lost in America would be very, very different. And Albert Brooks, I think, is brilliant. And he's one of my favorite comedy filmmakers of all time. But yeah, it's like, yeah, to your point. Yeah, you just have to try to be the best version of yourself. I, I try to approach them and say like, Well, what do I think I could do here that the other guy wouldn't do? That might actually be good. So that's how I go in.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:51
Greg, man, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, my friend. Thank you so much for being here.

Greg Mottola 1:23:56
Alex. This was much fun, man.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:58
Thank you for all the years of amazing entertainment and and continue to do what you do and continue doing what you do, sir, even though you're mediocre, as you said, but no, seriously, my friend, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you, man.

Greg Mottola 1:24:12
Thank you. Thank you so much, Alex. I hope to do it again some day.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 389: From Short Films to Narcos with Josef Kubota Wladyka

October 17, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Today on the show we have writer, producer, and director Josef Kubota Wladyka.

Josef Kubota Wladyka’s debut feature film, Manos Sucias, won Best New Narrative Director at the 2014 Tribeca Film Festival and was nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards, Best First Feature and Best Editing.

Josef has also directed episodes of the acclaimed television shows, Narcos, Fear the Walking Dead, and The Terror. Residing in Brooklyn, New York, Josef holds an MFA from New York University’s Graduate Film Program and was named one of Filmmaker Magazine’s 25 New Faces of Independent Film. He remains committed to making socially conscious genre films.

Kaylee “K.O.” Uppashaw, a mixed Indigenous boxer, prepares for a championship fight. Her hands are wrapped, gloves taped shut, and face greased. She pounds the mitts with her trainer, Brick. The room echoes with the strength of each hit. She’s preparing for the boxing match of her life. The crowd roars in the distance as the sounds crescendo into a fever pitch— Kaylee wakes up in a women’s shelter from a wishful dream of a life she once had.

This is her reality. A boxer struggling to pick up the pieces of her life. After her shift working at a diner, Brick drives her to a clandestine rendezvous. They meet a P.I. who presents evidence that Weeta, Kaylee’s younger sister who disappeared two years ago, is possibly alive and circulating in a trafficking network.

He tells her a time and place to plug herself into this dangerous world in hopes of finding her sister. Kaylee agrees and sets off on a dark and treacherous journey. Her strength and determination are tested as Kaylee fights the real fight of her life—to find Weeta and make her family whole again.

Enjoy my conversation with Josef Kubota Wladyka.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I'd like to welcome the show Josef Wladyka. How're you doing, Josef?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 0:14
Doin well Alex, thank you so much for having me. I first just want to say it's a great, great honor. What your podcast stands for and continuing the indie hustle of filmmaking and the array of different types of people you have on the podcast. It's great. So I'm just I'm just very grateful to be on. So thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:33
Oh, man, thank you so much for coming on man, I appreciate those kind words matter. You know, let's, I wanted to create something that you know, that can help filmmakers along this insane path that is being a filmmaker and, and try to just try to warn them before the boulder comes and crushes them. So just like you know, just let them know that the Boulder is going to come. And they can run away from it or duck it or something else Indiana Jones style, but most people don't even know that they're boulders lying around. So

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01
Yeah big boulders and is really kind of shine a light on how each individual person's journey is different. You know, there's no, there's no right or wrong way of doing it. And just to hear everyone's different experiences and how they kind of survive it, you know, I think is a great tool and a great asset for for indie filmmakers, and we need it. We need indie films more now more than ever, you know. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:26
I agree. 100% I think most people focus on the idle and not on the boulder that's gonna come down across them. Right, exactly. So Joseph, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:43
Yeah, man. Well, um, you know, since I was a little kid, I was always obsessed with films. I think the influence definitely came from from my parents. My mother was from Japan, and my father's from Poland. So they were both cinephiles, you know, arguing over Kieslowski and Andre Vida and Ozu and Kurosawa. So that sort of residue was always around. Me and my brothers, I'm the youngest of three brothers. And, you know, my mom really always tried to get us to watch different types of films, she would take us if Seven Samurai was screening in like Washington, DC, she would take us there to watch it. But you know, we, me and my brothers would want to go see Terminator two and sneak on our bikes in sneaking sentimental place. So so, you know, it was always there that influence and, you know, we mean, my brothers used to take like little VHS cameras out into the woods and make these silly little films where we chop off her head and roll a cam cantaloupe into the camera and cutting all in camera. And in high school, you know, I was I was a pretty terrible student in high school. And so a lot of the times the writing papers and stuff, I will just make sort of like these really bad VHS, little short films. And also, our morning announcements at the time we're on, we're on TV, and we come into class and watch more announcements. So I used to, like, make videos for that to promote the school dances so and so forth. But then, you know, the reality set in when I'm the college, that, first of all, like I didn't, I never thought that filmmaking was something that I could actually do make a living doing. You know, I grew up in Northern Virginia outside DC. So there was, there was no one. I wasn't around any artists, you know, I wasn't around anyone who, who just made films, or was a part of that world at all. And so I was just kind of like, falling following the status quo. You know, I went to I went to college, and I studied business, because that's what all my friends were doing. And I figured, I would just, you know, come back, I would graduate college and get a get a nine to five and sort of, I guess that's what my life supposed to be. And then when I got an internship, one summer doing a job like that. And I quickly realize that this is absolutely something that I do not want to do. And I need to figure out what I really want to do, you know, so, oh, there was an opportunity after college, a friend of mine was making like an indie film, a low budget film, and I had the opportunity to work on that as like an assistant in a PA. And that was the first time I saw the, the the whole process really in front of me, you know, of a film being made. And I think I was a 22 at the time 23 And once that once that happened, you know, the bug bit me and it was it was over and ever since then I've just been obsessed with trying to make films you know. So you know, I got about Rebel Without a crew and the the guerrilla indie filmmaker handbook.

Alex Ferrari 4:50
It's right back there.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 4:51
I moved back I moved to DC. And I was a I was walking dogs during the day and waiting tables. At night, saving up money, and I bought a you know, a dvx Panasonic dvx200 or whatever it was the great camera

Alex Ferrari 5:07
100A, it was a 100A That's why I shot my first short on it was a full 24p camera. Oh, so great.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 5:14
Yeah, man, those cameras look great, they still look great. I think to this day, they have such a great look to em. Oh, yeah. And then I just started hustling, I just started saving up money to make my first like short film. And I did that for for a few years. And I was very, you know, I was a person that was very adamant about not going to film school. You know, I was part of the like, film school, you know, I'm just gonna do it myself, and so on and so forth. But for me personally, and you know, everyone's journey is different, you know, if some people have, there's some people that have just had an amazing talent and skill, they really don't need to go to film school, you know, like a PTA or something like that, you know. But for me, I just, I kept making these short films, but I found myself sort of hitting this wall of, I don't know, just like, I just knew that there was more to it. And like I didn't, I just wasn't making anything that interesting. I didn't know anything about working with, with really working with actors, you know, and all that stuff. So and also my mom, you know, education is very important to my mom, and she's Japanese and my oldest brother's a doctor, so on and so forth. So, you know, that's when I started to think about going to film school. So and then, you know, I started to kind of look more closely at some film directors that I admire. And I was like, whoa, hold on a second. Like, you know, Aronofsky went to AFI, Scorsese and Spike went to NYU, you know, there are people that went to film school. So maybe, you know, maybe this is something that maybe this is what I need, you know, at this time. So, yeah, I had made all these shorts there. I knew there was only one film school, grad film school that I was going to apply to, which was NYU, new grad film. One of the main reasons is because it's the only film school that doesn't make you take the GRAri's. So

Alex Ferrari 7:07
I understand I understand. I understand this, bro. My high school transcripts were horrendous. When I got to college, I was like, first in my class. But when I was like, I went to film school, I was, I think I was first or second in my class. And then I went back to college just for fun, just to learn, like I went to a community college just take philosophy courses in psychology courses and stuff. And people like, what's your major? I'm like, I'm just here for fun. And they're like, What do you why do you what? So I get it, trust me, it does, I say decent GREs,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 7:36
Terrible standardized test taker, I got 1000 them, they tease like, so I knew there was no way you know, all those other films that I was, like, if I take the GRPs forget about it. And then, you know, a jury was always always a dream of mine to live in New York City, and to be like, the filmmaker living in New York City with all the like, the legendary iconic directors that have come from there. So I applied to NYU grad film. And, and I don't know how to live, but somehow I got in, out of the 3535 students that they accept. And then I think, you know, that's when, you know, there's a real pivot in terms of, I just kind of, you know, really ate, drank and slept cinema for that amount of time when I when I was in school, and I was around other great talented classmates and artists, and just studying film. And it was really, it was a tough time in a lot of ways. But a really, really special time. Because all that's all I really had to worry about. Now, obviously start to accrue a lot of student debt, which was, which is another thing which we can get to later later down the line. But yeah, that's, that's, that's basically, you know, I went to film school, I started making shorts. And then I made my first low budget feature film, in 2013. Film called Manasu CS and that actually, that was my thesis film. From from school. So So yeah, that's kind of

Alex Ferrari 9:11
The kind of the general the general like, I have to ask you. What did your Japanese mother say? When you said I want to be a filmmaker.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:19
You know, my mom is amazing thing. She has a she's a strong, strong Japanese. I didn't we didn't really have much of a relationship with our Father. We were raised by a single mother, me and my brothers. So you know, just raising three boys on your own. There's already a sort of toughness to her. But I think because she loves movies so much, you know, and she she's Yeah, she just she appreciates the art she's that she was like a ballroom dancer, professional ballroom dancer for a long time

Alex Ferrari 9:51
So she gets it she gets she got it

Josef Kubota Wladyka 9:53
So she totally got it. I mean, I think she was very extremely worried for me many times, many, many Just along the way. But, you know, my oldest brother is, you know, neuroradiologist. So she got the doctors so that's good, you know, so, so I guess it could have been my youngest is like

Alex Ferrari 10:13
Yeah, you can have your it's your you can have fun. You're the artist, you're the artist. I have the doctor, I can have the artist as well, who is the best of both worlds? No, I get it, man. I get it. Now, was there a film that lit your fire? That your flame for this? Like, was there a movie you saw you just like, Man, I gotta, I gotta I gotta do some. I gotta, I gotta go shoot some movies.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 10:36
Oh, man. I don't know, man. It was like, it was it was all of them. You know, like, I was the 90s kid kind of like, I kind of feel like every filmmaker. There's like a window of their, their life. Maybe you say from like, eight. So like, 22 or something in the films that were sort of coming out in that time really, really impact you, you know. And so for me, yeah, it was like, you know, the, I mean, when I saw Fargo for the first time, I was like, Holy shit, you know, that's a movie that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 11:08
Dude, I was. I was, I was in college. And Pulp Fiction came out. I was in film school and I went to the theater down the street to go see Pulp Fiction. I literally remember falling out of my chair laughing at some of the scenes that were just so not because they were they were they were funny. But the audacity of what the filmmaker did, and how he was writing. And I was just like, what just happened? And I've had that moment a few times, watching a movie like Fight Club, the matrix Shawshank. There's certain movies that when you see them, they just like, I just things have changed, like Pulp Fiction is one of those movies. Yeah, No Country for Old Men Jesus, like, you know, if you want to go down the Coen Brothers filmography that's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 11:59
I mean, that's the perfect. It's the perfect film like that is like, I don't know. It doesn't get any better than that. And I love that movie. Unconditionally. Love that movie. Yeah, so I mean, it's all those films. And then it was kind of like a golden era of cinema in the 90s. No, people were doing their thing. Spike was doing this thing. Coen Brothers. Yeah, the matrix came out in 99. Right? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 12:22
Yeah. 99 Fight Club and the matrix both came out. And but 99 was a great year for movies. If I remember, there's a bunch of other movies that got released that year. They're just like, Jesus, like that was good in the 90s went out with a bang. My that time period for me was the 80s. And up until probably like the mid 90s. Up until I was around that time. And those are the movies that you know, Terminator.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 12:47
Terminator is probably the the film I've watched the most in the theater, I think. Because me and my brother would sneak sneak in, watch it over again. And it actually my mom took us to see that and I remember crying when when when Arnold's getting

Alex Ferrari 13:09
Cameron, one of the most underrated writers of his generation. I think he's a he's not an underrated filmmaker of his generation. But he's an underrated writer. They don't talk much about his writing, but he is one of the best writers of his generation and he might not be as flashy as some of the other more known screenwriters. But man you look at you look at Terminator, man and people listening if you were a kid, if you saw Terminator two in the theater, you like i Dude, I had I think I still have in my mom's house. The card like the the sporting card collection of the Terminator. Movie cards. Yeah, I had everything do I bought everything Terminator two, the books that it was just such a phenomenon. when that movie came out, it just it made Arnold Arnold. I think that's that was that was the one that really made him explode.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 13:59
It's a great film, and it's a great film. Yeah, but I would say, You know what, it was not a good, um, you know, there was something like, you know, I had studied business and you work if you do you want to lose, it's like you're working. You don't really know what you're really your job is what do you do contributing to really know and for me, like, filmmaking was tactile in the sense of like, you know, I write something, you know, 10 minutes short, I write it, and then I shoot it and I edit it. And then I can't remember what program I used to put it on the DVD, you know what I mean? And then I can I can show it to people, you have product in that, you know, that seeing that whole system, like that made sense to me. Like, it was very simple, you know, you write something you make something and then you try to show it to people. And when I was waiting tables, I would have stacks of my burnt DVDs with my really shitty I'm talking really shitty short films. And I would just give them out to like, people that would come into the restaurant, you know? And so So I think that was a big part of it. It was like the first thing in my life that I that I just understood. Obviously, there's the complexities and how deep it goes was I was so naive, you know what I mean? I was just young, just jumping off the ledge and in doing whatever, but but just something about, you know, you write something, shoot it, you make it, and it's there. It's very, I don't know, I just, it made sense to me.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
No, without without question. And I mean, I've had, I actually had a, like a nine to five as an editor in that corporate environment multiple times. And you just feel like, you don't, I don't know you. It's a paycheck. And it's nice when it's a nice paycheck. But it's not really fulfilling your soul in many ways. You know, definitely a creative soul. So I rather sometimes be broke and having fun. Especially when you're younger, when you're younger, you could do things like that when you get older, it's a little tougher to do these things. But when you were saying like, Oh, yeah, it was a really great time. But a tough time when I basically all I had to think about in school was film, and you just absorb yourself in watching movies, talking about movies, and making movies, learning about the process. And that was what film school was for me, like, I literally had three or 400 VHS tapes that I brought up to college with me, and I just watched them and I would rent stuff. And it was just five, six movies a day, it was insane. It was just, it's just something that you don't get an option, you don't get an option to do as much anymore. And the world we live in. Now, you also mentioned about school debt. You know, I've had multiple, I've had multiple conversations with filmmakers who one poor guy $300,000 in film school debt, you want to call? Yeah, and it was like, and he's like, I'm, I'm never gonna get that that's I'm done. I can't ever pay that off. You know, sometimes it's, it's all a value, it's a conversation, I'd love to hear your point of view, because I'm sure you still have a little bit of student debt. Maybe you've been lucky enough to pay it off, I was lucky to pay mine off pretty quickly what mines was, like 1820 grand for my entire film course. I went to a Tech Tech film college. And I was able to pay it off within a few years, but some of my friends just still around their neck. So what's your opinion on it?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 17:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't, man, it's tough. I've been really lucky and fortunate to have been able to sort of establish myself as a television director, and episodic television director. But there was some really dark times, especially like, after I was done with grad school. And basically, you know, you could at the time in the program, you could keep matriculating and taking out loans to live. And, you know, I don't know how I how good it is like, but you know, like, in terms of like, being responsible, but basically what I was doing is I would take out loans, and then I was going on, like research trips, and I was as I was, I was trying to make my first feature film, you know, so you think you could matriculate for like two to three years. And then you have to make your film and then you have to graduate. So, so I did that. And I and I went in so I took a big gamble, you know, and I went to a lot of a lot of debt, which is really, really, really terrifying. And then there was a moment, you know, after I made my feature film, and it got into film festivals and stuff like that, right. And I had a manager and I had agents and stuff but like I was I had no idea how I was gonna how I was gonna make money, you know? And so I was Yeah, I was thinking about moving back in back home and like working at the restaurant. I used to work there before I went to film school and like, you know, it was it was it was it was very very dark and also happening at the time was I was getting a lot of you know, scripts sent to me you know when different projects sent to me but I was saying no to everything because to be honest, the stuff that was being said was really bad. You know, there's a lot of bad shit out there. And you know, I'm not Scorsese and I'm not gonna get stuck in Sorkin so I can script sent to me I'm gonna get the fucking you know a piece together talk it's been rewritten like 20 times generic fucking programmer script and they're gonna want me to you know, I mean So yeah, there was a rough there was a rough like year there and then what actually ended up happening is my mom was a legend. You know, she was like, basically like, well, you need to you need to stop saying no to all this shit. She was like, in the fucking work. She was like, I I don't care if you think you I don't know who you think you are, you know, but you're not.

Alex Ferrari 20:04
I was I was thinking that in my head. I'm like, Look, I get you, man. I feel you. Because I was said crap too. But it's like, sir, like, I would rather direct crap to get my mug get something on the off the ground. And then and instead of work, you know working at you know, waiting tables. I mean look man, Tarantino, Tarantino, Scorsese. I mean, he worked with Corman, everybody worked with Cormen, you know, every, you know, Cameron did Parana too I mean, like it's,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 20:34
No and then and then she was like, I think I think it was it was probably like, I can't remember those 2014 or 2015. But basically it was New Year, personnel worried and shit. And my New Year's resolution after talking to her was I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna say yes to everything. I'm gonna fuckin say yes to everything. I'm gonna go up for these films, I'm going to so and so forth. Anything that comes just let's let me read program my mind. And it's amazing how much everything changed once that once I did that, because, you know, so I started going up for these studio films and stuff that I'm, you know, I'll save you watch films, and stuff like that. But, um, but you know, I was pitching to Michael DeLuca, who was the head of Sony at the time, I was meeting with all these people I was, you know, my, my people were seeing me, and I was practicing a big tool that's part of being a director, which is basically being a salesperson of yourself, you know, pitching in on stuff, and is one of the one of the things that they really didn't teach us that much in film school, which I, I mean, I don't know how you prepare for that, you know, it's kind of like, you just have to be thrown into it. So I just started saying, yes, those stuff and like, you know, more and more things started. I almost got, you know, I never I was like me, between me and one a director, but the other director had made all this money for us to do some No, so no, but what came out of that was just more opportunities. And then finally, there was an opportunity. In my writing partner who I wrote my first feature film with, there was an opportunity to write a pilot for HBO, for the director, Tim Van Patten. Who's the legend? You know, he's directed the most of the episodes of sopranos, the pilot for Game of Thrones. And so that was our that was our first paid gig. And at the time, really, oh, my God, we made it. Lots of lots of lessons to learn about going through that process. Because after you're on your 10th rewrite of it, maybe you're not getting paid as much as you think you're getting paid when you see the first initial number, you know. Sure. Um, so. So that came and then, um, and then really, yeah, and then and then the opportunity to direct Narcos came. And again, I was in this like, yes. period of my life.

Alex Ferrari 22:56
It was this season was season two.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:00
Yeah, it was season two. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 23:02
So Narcos was Narcos at this point already.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:05
Yeah, it is. Yes, Narcos. Well, I'm so crazy. We're going in the Time Machine. I mean, Narcos was I think, you know, Narcos was well, I mean, there was House Of course naugus is one of the first original Netflix shows, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 23:20
It was one of it was one, if I remember correctly, it was in that first group, I mean, House of Cards, obviously is the one that crashed the door open but Narcos was then when I think within six months Narcos was announced

Josef Kubota Wladyka 23:33
It's like the first 10 and I'm in Yeah. I mean, and I think the I think when I was interviewing for it, like the I don't know if the season had even really come out yet. So they didn't know that it was gonna be this like huge sort of global like it was it became their, like, big show internationally for a little while there. So, but when I was interviewing Florida, you know, it was just I, I didn't I didn't really know about it. So

Alex Ferrari 24:04
Did you know about Pablo? I mean, you obviously might have heard of Pablo Escobar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 24:08
I mean, I mean, the whole and I mean, this is why, you know, for all the filmmakers out there like you, you just have to make stuff you have to make stuff because that's if you don't have stuff to show people you got nothing in the only reason why I got Narcos is because my first feature film, which I shot in Colombia, in one of Ventura Colombia, it touched on you know, it was it dealt with the drug trade, but in a very, very different way. It's sort of the people that are most exploited by the drug play drug trade. But because I had made that film, my Colombian producer on that film was friends with the producing director on Narcos, his name's Andy bass. He's a he's a wonderful director, Colombian director. And he showed my film I had never met him before, but he it was like his favorite film that he'd seen in a while and, and then he showed it to the show, right? Eric Newman and then Eric Newman liked it. And I was on a, you know, Skype interview going forward. Basically, I mean, yeah, that's basically how it how it all started.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
So then so then you were on a plane down to Colombia. You shot and the shark won't be right or they didn't get Colombia. So yeah, I mean, I'm, I was fairly obsessed with those first few seasons. I've watched God let me because I've, I have a family who work, you know, who are Colombians, and like, you know, deep friends and family that were Colombians. I'm Cuban. But I you know, I'm fascinated by Pablo, huh?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:42
Yeah, I was gonna say Cubano

Alex Ferrari 25:44
Cubano de Miami. So I, it was it was I mean, it was such an amazing thing. And you didn't just direct one you drag it like five episodes. So I think you have five episodes. Right?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 25:58
I directed a five of Narcos and then the first two Narcos Mexico so I was a you know, a resident director. And I you know, again, I'm very very grateful for Miss amazing, that whole experience and and also I was the only I'm the only gringo to ever direct Narcos. They probably they all the other directors are these incredible Latin Latin American Direct. There's like Josie Paddy. And you know, Andy, obviously, Escalante, all these really, really amazing filmmakers. So for me, I was the lone gringo which very, very great. Yeah, it was yes. So I made my tiny little film right for like nothing. Basically, we shot on C three hundreds that were donated to us by Canon. And in this in cinema lenses had just come out the canon, similar lenses. And then my DP had to do light panels for my to shoot my whole entire first feature, that was the only lighting you had. And now I'm on a plane, correct? Blind down to do this ginormous television show with a crew of 200 people.

Alex Ferrari 27:12
I got to ask it, so I got to ask you, man. Alright, so how do you walk on the set the first day, I always love hearing these stories. Because when you walk on the first day of set, and you're like, I'm in a pretty intense scenario, even for a seasoned professional. It's a pretty intense scenario. And there's Narcos and yeah, it's all movie, but there's still you know, people around who are not nice guys. You know, so there's that stress as well. You know, where are you like, I'm sure security is off the chain on that plays in on the set everything. But when you walk on the set, and you talk to you look at the cast you had I you know, working on that second season, how do you walk on that set? And like what was the feeling you had when the day one of shooting like what what did what was going through your head man?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 27:57
Man, I mean, I was just it's interesting, because yeah, sort of my naivete was, in a way was a gift now that I've read, like six hours of television now. So like, I know what it's really all about, you know. But I gotta say, I just, I was really, really lucky. And I mean, I'm sure you know, all the people you have on your show. It's like, you got to work hard, and you got to be ready, but you got to have be lucky to Oh, yeah. And for me, what I was extremely lucky about with Narcos, my first this was my in mind you, I tried to like you interview for it, right? And they're like, oh, yeah, and then you know, in like, four months or whatever, that's when you're gonna go shoot so and you don't hear and you don't sign anything, you don't hear anything. So then I was like, Oh, I guess maybe this isn't happening or something. And then it's like, you know, about a couple weeks or a month out, and then they start engaging again. And I'm like, Holy fuck, I'm what's, what am I getting myself into? So I do like a mad frantic email to my team. And I say, you know, is there you know, you're the biggest fucking agency, can you because there's someone that I can like shadow here in New York just for a day just to see like, you know, I have no idea what it's like, you know, and they're like, Yeah, enough, nothing, nothing came out.

Alex Ferrari 29:24
Ofcourse, of course,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 29:25
The seat man is shooting this thing. And then you get on and I was like, but But I think, you know, it was too it's not on them. You know, it was me it was I was just too was too late. So luckily, again, all these little seeds of things that happen along the way. Because I had written or wrote that pilot for Tim Van Patten. I had established a good relationship with him and he's basically kind of come my main TV directing mentor like when I when I'm in a pickle or a tough situation. I always call him and he gives me the most I mean The most wise amazing amazing

Alex Ferrari 30:02
Yoda Yoda advice

Josef Kubota Wladyka 30:04
Exactly he's yoda. So it's about a week out. And I'm, like, terrified. And I in and I go over to his go over to his house and sit with him. And he's very patient and kind and he's like just asked me anything, there's no dumb questions, you know, there's no nothing. And so, you know, I sat there for three hours, you know, asking the dumbest dumbest questions. You know, I didn't know what, you know, the that he taught me what a tone meeting was, and like what you do, like in your first weeks of prep, and all in all of us, totally, I didn't know any of this stuff, you know. So, so that helped just kind of, at least get me the courage to get on the plane. But then again, once I flew down there, um, I was very, very lucky because I had an incredible first ad. His name is Oscar Farkas is Colombian, Colombian American, but we're very, very good friends to this day. And then Louis son sons was the DP that I worked with. And I was lucky because they were really, really patient with me, they were really, you know, I was very honest with like, where I was coming from, in my experience, you know, and so, so they really, they really kind of just helped kind of hold my hand through the whole process, which is incredible, you know, because, for example, like, my film, my films, both my films really, but I, I've made with non actors, basically. So for my first film, you know, I had built this relationships with these kids that act in my film for months, you know, months, and then we were in like a four week rehearsal camp before we started shooting. So we're basically family, you know, on a TV shoot, you show up, you shake the actors hands, and you block the scene, you start shooting. So for this, for me, was all the other stuff I could figure out, you know, like, where to put the camera and you know, that type of stuff, the tech stuff. That's, that's it, but yeah, that's like, that's the that's just second nature. And then at the end of the day, you realize it's all the same shit, it doesn't matter if you're on a gajillion budget thing or a no budget. It's what's happened. What's the life in front of the camera? Right, right. That's everything. So for me, that was the real big mystery part was like working with the actors, because you don't, you don't really know them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm used to having this close, like relationship with them. So Oscar, my ad was like, you know, I can really dumb questions like, you know, so like, what happens? So they come and like, you know, do we rehearse for a long time? Or for like, what are you doing? And he's like, he's like, here, here, this is what you do, you know, usually read the scene, read the words. And then you know,

Alex Ferrari 32:50
This is insane. This is insane. Like how can like a multi million dollar production is bringing bringing you in, and they're like, you're, like schooling you along the path of the process. And it's wonderful that they did that. But I find it so fascinating that the showrunner saw enough talent in you and said, he'll figure it out. We've got a support team around him. He'll figure it out. But I want his vision in my show. That's, that was a good showrunner does.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 33:22
Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's the magic of Eric Newman. You know, he is that's he, he finds these amazing filmmakers. And at that time, it was so amazing about Narcos that they really empowered you to try stuff. You know, I mean, so once I got comfortable. And once I figured out, you know, I mean, it's out, like I said, a couple days into shooting and you're like, Oh, you very, it's it's you get it. It's the same process, you know, but I remember one of my episodes, we did this crazy, one shot sequence, it was like a three minute, one wonder. And this was my first time doing television. And, and normally you have, like, you know, three weeks to rehearse and prepare that none of us none of that, that it was chaos. There was none of that. But we still managed to pull it off. But what was so great about Eric, like I said, is he's the type of showrunner that, if you pitch it to him, and he and he, and he likes it, you know, then then he'll fully support you for doing it. And for this particular one, you know, I wanted wasn't trying to do another cool one, or for the sake of being a cool one. Or it was actually the first time that Pablos family was actually in the line of fire in danger for the first time in the whole series. So I wanted to ground the audience subjectively, with his family in this house as everyone from around but sort of closing in so we're just experienced with them through this one shot. But again, you know, Eric, was 100% on board and supported it and, and yeah, I got really lucky with that whole team son sons, the DP they were just amazing, sweet, sweet, really, really great people. And yeah, And it's like, you know, I had I had spent a long time in Colombia, I shot with a lot of crews in South America and all that stuff. So it was a fun loving everyone is just, you know, fun, everyone's happy. It's had that kind of love very, very good vibe to it. And Vagner Mora, the actor plays a Pablo is just like, I mean, amazing, amazing to work with. You know, he watched my film The first. The first time I came on set, actually, we were we were, we were scouting, but they were shooting. And so I went to kind of say hi to some of the people and he was like, so nice, man. He gave me a hug. And he's like, I loved your film. He like watched my film all this stuff. I was like, what this is, I think I'll be okay. And I still wasn't okay, you know.

Alex Ferrari 35:44
So, so So let me ask you, I cuz I love asking this question, because I think we all as directors have this day. Is there a day on that first season of Narcos that you felt like everything was coming down crashing around you? You're losing the sun? The camera doesn't work? Something happens? And what was that day for you? If it wasn't every day? Which happens? And how did you break? How did you get through it? How did you figure it out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 36:12
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that, I mean, yeah, in television. I mean, television is a different beast, you know, you that's the that's the first thing you're shooting seven to 10 pages a day, it's a totally different than, like, when it's like your film, you know what I mean? And so there was a lot of days like that. I mean, there was one particular day where we were shooting this, like, huge set piece, you know, of course, they like dependent of course, we're behind schedule, the fucking sun setting all that shit. And it's like a three convoys of like, different, like military and lost pet bears, and everyone's can converging on this one spot, and we had to block off this whole fucking thing. And like, in like, and, you know, the scene was just Hell's written, or like how man, um, I just, I just knew, like, I was like, this wasn't clearly like, laid out, you know what I mean? And, yeah, and Pedro Pascal, who's fucking just a gym at the gym. I was kind of emailing him ahead of time, you know, like, you know, what do you think about this? Like, I don't know about this, this, this? And he's like, you're right, you're right. We'll talk about it when I got some. And so we just run out time, we're trying to work out the scenes to just make it make sense. And I remember we were shooting it. And we just, we had to put three cameras up this one on an 85, you know, one long and then the, you know, and just kind of just hose it down, which is not ideal, but I will say,

Alex Ferrari 37:46
I love that term. hose it down that first time I've heard hose it down before I love that.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 37:52
Yeah, but But in that chaos, because a lot of the times the chaos makes its way that energy into you know, and it's that classic thing. So I was sitting at I was like, Holy fuck, this is like, this is gonna be the fucking worst. And then, when I saw the editors assembly of it for the first time, I was like, Oh, hey, this works this way. And then we worked on it some morning, and it ended up being like, I'm actually one of the parts of the episodes that I really liked. So there you go. So they never know.

Alex Ferrari 38:25
Now what was, you know, what was the biggest lesson you learned working on Narcos, you know, as a director as a person as everything because I mean, that's a pretty, you know, Trial by Fire scenario. You know, you're kind of taught you were tossed into the deep end of the pool. On on one of the world's biggest television shows the second season coming back. So everybody was waiting to see what happens to Pablo. We all know what happens the Bible, but like, the story and everything. What was that? What was the biggest takeaway you had from that working on that first season?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 38:59
Mmm hmm. I mean, I guess. I mean, there's so much I'm trying to I'm trying to think trying to jump in the DeLorean. And what I was thinking, I mean, I mean, I think a big thing I learned is what I said earlier, is that when you jump to something bigger and scale, the every, you have more tools at your disposal, right, but the process is still the same, you know, and then again, the life in front of the cameras, that's what's the most important thing always. So I think that that after I did Narcos, it gave me a confidence in terms of like, knowing what's really important. And obviously, as I as that went on, as I continue to, especially in television, direct and television, you kind of you learn how to kind of dial in, what what you need to focus on because when everything is at your disposal, it's easy to get lost in like Oh my god, I can park and I can do a drone shot I can do this, you know, but but again the drama of life in front of the camera and what's what's the story and what's what does the characters want? And what are their obstacles and all that stuff is all that matters. It's the same. It doesn't matter what size production you're on.

Alex Ferrari 40:19
Yeah. And it's, it's good. It's like I know it's kind of like, It's like that old saying like, baseball is a simple sport. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball, and it's for for filmmaking. It's like there's an actor, there's a camera, there's a lens, and there's light, and, and a location and it could be 1000 million people on the set, or it could be just you and the actor, and you hit the record button. And you're doing everything. Yeah, as long as what's in front of the lens is impactful in the storytelling. That's all that really matters. One thing I think the Hollywood has kind of lost its way they have a lot of spectacle but at a certain point spectacle with Look, when we first saw Terminator two men, Terminator two had a lot of spectacle. But there's so much heart. So much heart so much story so much character in that movie. Jurassic Park, you watch it, you're like, oh my god, there's a dinosaur. No one's ever seen a dinosaur before. But the movie was good. The story was good. The characters were good. At a certain point spectacle were just like, like it really at this point. We're at this point in what we're as of this recording. How what else is there to be put on screen that's gonna make us just go. Oh, wow. Like,

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:38
Video game lesson? Yes,

Alex Ferrari 41:40
Avatar, like the avatar.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 41:42
Spectacle without drama is nothing, right. Like, it's so the reason why Terminator two is incredible is because the fuck ins the set pieces in the action are grounded in the dramatic experience of what the characters are going through. So it's not just spectacle for, for the sake of spectacle, you know? And I mean, yeah, I mean, this, we could talk about this for five hours. But yeah, movies now or I don't even know it. There's a lot of spectacle.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot like, there's a lot of spectacle, and we could talk about, you know, what's going on in Hollywood and all these kinds of things. But it's all you know, corporations have taken over and filmmakers aren't in control anymore to a certain extent. And then the UK and then you occasionally you know, give Marty $200 million to make something or you give, you know, James Cameron or you give Spielberg and you give these guys or PT or somebody a little bit of money to go off and do what they do. But I'm not seeing a lot of the new generation of those like, we're, we're still, we're still, we're still squeezing the juice out of the 70s 80s 90s and early 2000 filmmakers. But there really isn't. I mean, don't get me wrong there. Obviously, there's a lot of great new filmmakers like yourself and others. But you know, you know what I'm saying like, you know, people, when Quinton makes a movie, everyone shows up, you know, when Petey makes a movie, everyone shows up like licorice pizza, and you know, all these kind of stuff. But they're coming rare and rare, unless they're on Netflix.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:12
And listen, and like in those, all those people, all those great directors, Jane Campion, and all of them there, they're there, they been grandfathered in, you know what I mean? They're there, they came in a totally different generation. I mean, the conversations I have all the time with, like my colleagues that are filmmakers and stuff like that. It's just like, it's just totally different. Now, it's a totally different time you make your first feature. And, you know, you can you either, you know, you can become an episodic television director and manager, I'm not saying any of this is bad. Or you jump to like a $200 million. Huge movie,

Alex Ferrari 43:48
There's no in between.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 43:50
But, but the Yeah, like, it's just, I'm constantly fighting with myself, like, how do you? How do you differentiate yourself? How do you make yourself build a body of work? As a director, you know, and it's hard. I think it's just, I think it's a it's a, it's a harder time right now. But that's why I give a lot of props to like this podcast, and this whole idea of keeping the indie film flight going. Because I, what I always come back to is, we just got to make our movies, we just got to make our art, we got to make bold movies and take chances and like, look, the streaming wars in the void that they go into, yeah, I don't fucking you know, who knows how they're going to be seen. But if we don't make them, then we're really at a loss, you know, so I think just people gotta keep pushing through and trying to make their weird little indie films, and we need it more now more than ever, but like, yeah, the days of like, your film premiered at Sundance, and then you get a three picture deal. And like in the Weinstein Company, it's gonna, you know, give you 15 million to make your little drop. They don't make those movies anymore. You know, I mean, if it's a genre film Yeah, you have a chance like if it's a horror film, you know?

Alex Ferrari 45:03
Or an action. Yeah, yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 45:06
But you know, it's just we're in a I don't know. It's a totally different There is to be the next PTA I don't know. I don't know

Alex Ferrari 45:15
Why i mean look. I love I love to I love this is just to film geeks talking now. But you know like would if PT and Quinton show up today as 20 Somethings? Do they go into episodic? Is that is that the is that the route is that is that the route they go? Because they're not going to get you know you're not going to get but there's no way Pulp Fiction gets Produced by Studio. There's just no way it was barely. It barely got produced then because it was because of the because of Miramax. Miramax had to juice at the time it was it was a certain time period that those kind of films were being made. But no major studio was going to do Pulp Fiction. It was a it was read by a bunch of major studios and they didn't do it. Or Boogie Nights. Can you imagine doing a movie about pornographers in today's world, like, you know, or taxi driver? You know, try to get taxi driver made by Sony today, which is what who owns it? You can you imagine these kinds of films, these films don't get made anymore. It's very rare, rare for those to get made. And so many filmmakers now think that it's still the 90s. And they're making their films thinking that that's what's going to happen, like all I need to do is get into Sundance or South by or Tribeca. And I'm like, Nah, man, I've talked to all those guys and gals. It ain't no rainbows and butterflies, even if you can get that it's just, it's just not, you know, I'm

Josef Kubota Wladyka 46:41
There's way more competition now, man. So many filmmakers now. I mean, there's numerous filmmakers. I know that films that premiered at a huge festival and they still, you know, they still haven't gotten distribution, or if they do if it's some streamer, you know, they offer them like nothing, nothing, you know, like 5g and 5000 mg or something like, so it's a different time. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I don't know how we can. I don't know, again, like I said, I just I just gonna keep trying to fight the fight and keep trying to make my films and I'm very grateful and lucky that I have television to help pay my bills, and so on and so forth. Oh, so getting way back to the debt question. So long story short, so I did Narcos had all this debt. And then I was like, basically, I am gonna do I think I did. It was a really rough time, like six or seven. Anyway, I'm gonna do like seven episodes of television all in a row, and pay off all my debt at once. And that's what I did.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
Yeah. God bless you, brother. I mean, listen. And the thing is that most filmmakers don't get that opportunity. You know, they don't get that chance to look, dude, I threw down 50 grand on my commercial demo reel, shot on 35. Back in the 90s. And I'm like, I've arrived. Everyone recognize my genius. And I sent my demo reel out. And it was it was a rough go for a bunch of years. And I wanted to dead. And you know, I wrote a whole book about the darkest time where I almost made a movie for the mob. And that whole time and that whole craziness that I did. But, you know, it took me a long time to be able to get back out of out of all the debt that I put myself in it might have not been film school debt, but it was just debt, trying to chase that dream. And I've had people on the show who've lost their house, you know, with families and things. So you've got to be smart about this dream. It's unfortunate that we have chosen an art form. That's probably one of the most expensive art forms on the planet. And I wish I could. Yeah, I wish I could. No, I wish I could just pick up a guitar. And I'd be like, Okay, I played for three or four hours today. I feel fulfilled. Like I wish I could do that. I wish I could draw, you know, but it's just not the not not mine. I got bit by that damn bug early on, and I can't get rid of it. Now it's stuck with me. Now I want I wanted to ask you about your new film. Catch the fair one, man. How did you because you wrote and directed it correct? Yes. How did you come up with like, how did that movie come to be? It doesn't seem like a film that everyone's jumping the throat $300 million at so how did you get the whole thing off? How did you get it off the ground? How did how did you come up with the script and everything?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 49:29
Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, again, we that a five year journey to get to get this this one made. And in between doing television I kept making sure chasing the dragon like I got to make my second film. I gotta keep fighting. I gotta keep fighting. So I actually the I wrote the script, but the story I came up with the lead in the film. Her name is Kaylee McLennan, ogg Reese, and she's a professional, indigenous world champion boxer. And I met her. When was this 2004 by viewers five years ago, I actually found her through social media through my friend's boxing gym. I myself was really getting into boxing, and I started following her. And, you know, I just, she's a great advocate and artist, and she uses her platform to touch on things that she wants, you know, to bring awareness to, and I was researching and studying and learning more about like the missing, murdered indigenous women epidemic in North in North America and all this stuff. So something in my gut just like reached out, I was like, I want to meet this person. So I reached out to her. I borrowed my friend's little for my front, my friends, Hyundai Sonata that barely works. I took my DSLR and I went up there, and I just spent started spending time with her started hanging out with her and telling her you know, I have an idea about this film about this, this woman who's you know, looking for, for searching for a sister and I want but you know, I want you to I want to see if one if it's something you would be interested in acting within? Can I just hang out with you? And, and she was, it was one of those things where it's similar to my first film where like, I drove up there at the time, she because she's a like, legit world champion boxer. She was she was training for a fight. So she had to go to the gym to train in Providence, Rhode Island, right? Big six bucks thing. So I was like, Can I just can I just go with you? Can I? Can I hang out with you while you go and bring my camera? She's like, Yeah, sure. So we go into this our typical boxing gym, right that has like, you know, all these jacked, sweaty dudes and like, checks champion, Golden Globe champions. They're dudes talking shit in the corner and everything. And you know, people are talking, She's the only woman in there people talking to her. And she's like, you want to go a couple rounds, whatever. She's like, Yeah, we could spar a little. And she takes her piercings out, she gets in the ring, and she just starts firing these dudes. And it was in that moment, the inexplicable thing of a filmmaker, I was filming and I was like, Alright, this is I don't know exactly what this movie is. But, uh, but there's no turning back, you know, we're gonna go on this journey. So cut to many, many years of us spending time together working together. She we developed the story together. I, for many years prepared to act in it. And yeah, and then we shot we shot this crazy film. And we shot it in 2019. Right before the right before the pandemic. So we literally finished it right at the end of 2019. And yeah, it was a you know, in terms of, you know, she's not she's not a star, it's the classic in the, you know, it's is the classic in the story, like we had to piecemeal and hustle to find the money to make the film. And we I'm not going to say how much but it was, you know, we didn't make the film for a lot of money. But I was lucky to have, you know, amazing producers on board with me. Two of which I went to film school with. I like I constantly try to keep working with my colleagues from film school, because I feel like that's really important. And yeah, you know, there was a lot of nose, there was a lot of ups and downs. There was a lot of I should just give up on this. You know, all that classic stuff.

Alex Ferrari 53:09
Oh, yeah. Like, like, that's the thing, too. I always love asking as well as like, how do you keep going, man? Because so many people listening right now have a project they've been trying to get along, I'll get off the ground that a lot of them probably are in year five right now. You know, it's take acne and I remember I was hustling my, you know, a couple of my projects for years. And it's like, how do you just keep going? How do you not get defeated? By all the nose? Because it's constant? No, it's It's constant nose? Yeah.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 53:33
Well, that let's say, you know, one thing that so you know, I get inspired by real people. Right. And so, like, the one beautiful thing about making a film, and it's similar to how I made my first film. So for me, writing and dreaming the film before everyone gets invited over to your dinner table, you know, what I mean? Is is amazing. I love it. You're just dreaming the movie, you know, and and you haven't, you haven't gone out. And you know, started to ask people for money, all that stuff. So like, I love that part. Then when you transition, this is the part that I'm not, I don't love but it's necessary, right? Is when you have to turn into the used car salesman or whatever, whatever the fuck, right? And you have to start putting your film out there getting your script up there, you know, your deck and all that and you have to start getting nose, but not just nose, you get all the criticism and feedback and all that stuff. And so and then like, you know, time will just it just starts flying by you know, and then again to to stay afloat. I have to go do a couple episodes of television and then come back, you know, but I'm building this relationship with this real person. But what was for me, what I love about that process is at any moment during this time, which is like the worst for me is like finding the money basically up until you're greenlit and then you're going to go into pre production. At any moment. I can grab my kid, I could grab my camera. I could go meet up with Kaylee. I could Bring my friend who's an actor, and we could work on the scenes, you know, we could shoot these scenes, we could explore the scenes, we could change the script, you know, we could keep working on it. In for me, I realized, like, I think I do that subconsciously, because it makes me feel like I'm making it feels makes me feel like I'm making the film, even if it's like, no one is gonna, you know, this is just for us to explore. But I feel like I'm being a filmmaker, I have actors, I have a camera, and we're working on the material.

Alex Ferrari 55:27
Sure. So that kind of that kind of it makes you feel like you're doing something because you're working and you are doing something but you're not there just yet. But you're doing, you're working on it, you're bidding up the material, you're you're, you're putting the you're putting paint to Canvas, if you will, it might not be the big canvas you want but you're practicing essentially, which is that just

Josef Kubota Wladyka 55:47
It made me feel like I'm being a filmmaker, as opposed to just like a salesperson, you know, begging begging everyone to make your film which I said again, is a that is a necessary part of the process. But

Alex Ferrari 56:00
Unfortunately, it unfortunately it is my friend it is now after watching the film, and how did you stay sane as a filmmaker and as a creative making a film like this that's so dark. And it has so many dark scenes. And you know, the subject matters rough and there's the scene some of these scenes are just like, I just didn't want to be in the room, which is great as it's a testament to you as a filmmaker, because I'm just sitting here watching it. I'm just I don't want to be here. This is some some terrifying, I don't want to be here. How did you as a filmmaker and an artist, stay sane during that process? I see it for four minutes, but I know what it took to make those four minutes. So how do you stay sane during that process, man? Cuz you don't seem like a dark dude. Maybe you were working some stuff out jail? I'm not sure. But I mean, because when you first got when I first got on the call with you, I was like, this is not the guy expected. made this film. Like he seems like such a nice, well balanced dude. So I don't know how you made this film, dude.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 57:03
Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it was a lot through the collaboration with Kaylee. And, you know, it was it was one of the best artistic collaborations with with someone that I've worked with before, like, and I think like, you know, from very early on, when we were just talking about trying to make this film together and everything we in just the themes and stuff that it was touching on. And, you know, she has a lot of experience going around, and she's met people that's lost loved ones, and so on and so forth. And like, her perspective was so important to me. And, you know, she was like, it's got to be dark. You know, she, she, you know, she was like, We if we're gonna go into this world, and we're going to fictionalize it, and it's our artistic interpretation, well, then we got to fuckin, you got to kind of rattle the audience a little bit, you know, you gotta you got to make people feel uncomfortable. And then, of course, as a director, I think, you know, for me, just with the tools of being a filmmaker, when you're in there, constructing scenes that make the audience evoke something, you know, it can be you know, laughter can be as as gratifying. But also, you know, suspense and terror is also really, really fun using all the different tools using the sound using the music using how you shot it, you know what I mean? So, so yeah, but I will say it's been, I've lived with it, it's just been the next movie is very, very,

Alex Ferrari 58:34
It's a slapstick comedy. It's a it's a sequel, two, airplane. Got it. That's what you're doing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:40
Now I'm reading it now. And trust me, it is. It is very, very different. It's another film that will be impossible to finance. It is a 6060 year old Japanese woman who loves to dance ballroom dancing.

Alex Ferrari 58:51
Oh, that's huge. That's very high concept. Right? You'll be able to get to 300 million easy for that. What are you talking about?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 58:59
We keep fighting the fight? Right?

Alex Ferrari 59:01
That's great. And that's the insanity of what we do. I mean, that is the insanity of being in this business. And I joke about the I call it the beautiful sickness are the beautiful illness because that's what it is. We're, we're not Well, I mean, and artists aren't, you know, that's why we're not wired the same as everybody else, you know, and it's this, this compulsion to create that drives us in our lives, and it's something very difficult for people who aren't artists to understand.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 59:32
And it Oh, yeah, we're aliens to them.

Alex Ferrari 59:35
Yeah, it is. It is a compulsion. It's almost an act. It's a sickness. It's kind of like this thing that you just kind of keep doing it but it's beautiful in the same set in the same breath so that you're going after that storyline is awesome and I can't wait to watch that movie and, and you'll get you know, get and you'll get the financing for it and you'll get it made I you know, but I it's it's so Yeah, that's the funny thing too, you just finished a really difficult movie, you're like, instead of like, you know, picking maybe a little low fruit, like going a little, you know, just something like hanging like low hanging fruit that you might be able to pick off. Like, maybe I won't make the main character completely impossible to cast or fight. But you are as an artist you like, this is a story I want to tell. And that's powerful. That's a powerful, that's, that's a powerful.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:00:25
I mean, look, I grew up with, like, I grew up in a very diverse area with all different types of people. And, you know, it's wasn't the type of people that I was hanging out with my friends. And I, you know, it wasn't really in the movies and on TV, you know. So it was just one of the first things I said, when I became a filmmakers, that's one thing that I'm always gonna try to do is just, is just to put, you know, more diverse people in leads, you know, and because once you do it, then people will be more open to once they see a movie, you know, with someone, then it's, they're more open to, and then we can continue to keep making movies, you know, it just opens up everything. And it's, like I said, it comes back to just making stuff. You just gotta, you just gotta make, you just got to make this stuff. And yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
I was running. I was I remember running around town, with with my project, and it had a female lead as an action star. And people like, nobody wants to see an action star an action movie with with female lead. Nobody wants to see that. And I'm like, Guys, can you please I mean, and then Kill Bill came out. And then and then slowly, but surely, hey, women could be badass, too. It's but that's just the, you know, it's just, it's just the world we live in. But let's, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:01:50
Mm hmm. Hmm. Yeah. It's tough because I still feel like I'm very inexperienced in green. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:06
But, enough, fair enough.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:02:09
I would say there's a few things I'm thinking but I would say don't get caught up in the result. Enjoy, and embrace the process. I think when I was younger, and I was starting out, I was just fixated on the end result of my short film that would then get into some huge festival, and just thinking about all the stuff that it could do for me, but that's not the real work, the real work is being present and working through the process. So I think, gum, you know, it's easy to get fixated, especially now with like, I mean, it's so hard now because like, with, like social media and all this stuff in like, houses, who's gonna see your movie? And is it going to be? Is it ever going to get distributed and I those are valid things to think about. But if you really want to do it, you got to just not think about that. And you got to make the film because I mean, how many filmmakers do you know that have been talking about making their first film for years and years and years? And I think what happens is when you're thinking too much about the result of things that paralyzes them and then they look they don't make anything, you know what I mean? So you got to be an artist and you got to make second piece of advice I would say is you gotta you got to experience life to a certain extent you have to you know, fall in love get your heart broken, go travel to backpack to South America, like I did go learn a language, see the world, Rabobank, whatever it is, kind of mess up your life a little gain some experience, because your perspective and your point of view, when you're directing is kind of, it always falls back on that, you know, it's going to come through subconsciously. So the more life that you've experienced, the more you understand other people and human behavior. It's just the stronger and more empathetic in, I think, filmmaker he'll be so I think you gotta, you know, obviously make your movies make all your stuff, but you know, don't just sit in your apartment all day get. And it's ironically, it's horrible to say now, because that's what I've been struggling with that you can't fucking go anywhere, you know, the pandemic. It's like, you know, I'm a I'm a drifter, man, you know, and I was, I was lucky enough, I just shot for seven months in Japan, this television show during the pandemic, which was really hard, but in retrospect, I was so grateful for it, because otherwise I'd just be sitting here in my studio apartment for six months. So yeah, sorry, sorry, I went on a long tangent

Alex Ferrari 1:05:00
No worries, no worries. No, but I agree with you so many times young filmmakers, the first movies they put out are just basically rehash stuff that they've seen. And that's what you do as an artist. When you first start, you know, you draw, you draw what you've seen, or you paint what you've seen you play music of the music you listen to, that's how art starts, but you have to find that voice. And that voice is found by living. Not my job, not robbing a bank, but everything else you said. Joking. Hey, man, we we live in weird times, brother, we live in weird weird times. But I agree with you, 100% it's that you, you have to live and, you know, I'm getting you know, I'm 47. So I've been around the block a little bit, I got a lot of shrapnel in me. And I remember the stuff that I was writing when I was in my 20s I'd look at it now. I'm like, this is this, this is no idea what he's talking about. Like he could tell right away where I was my mindset there. And as you live life a bit more you become a more more, you know, fully formed soul that you can actually put into your work. And some people have that liquid some people have that right off the bat and they're masking their their anomalies, you know, but others Exactly. But you can't you can't and everyone listening, you cannot compare yourself to masters. You cannot compare yourself to Talentino like, oh, I can't write when I quit, and nobody can write like quit no one can write life's work. And no one can write like Shane Black. Like these guys are, who they are. And don't feel bad. Just like I can't make I can't write music like Mozart. Like don't feel bad, man. It's okay.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:06:40
Let me tell you, I have a little posted up on my wall. Here's what it says. Comparison is the thief of all joy. So you can't if you compare yourself to all these other filmmakers in every every video, every filmmaker does it. person made their first feature when they were like 26 and then it

Alex Ferrari 1:07:00
It starts with it starts with Orson Welles at 23 Then you're like, Okay, how old was Spielberg? Okay, so

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:07
But then what ends up happening is like I said, all that all that sort of going down those rabbit holes, all it does is paralyze you and you don't make your stuff. So I think another thing that this all ties into is like you're saying, it all comes down to patience as well because you want it all at once. You know, you want it you want to break through. And it's a it's a long journey.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:32
It is man it is it's it's a it's a miracle that anything ever gets done. It truly is. But we love it because we're crazy. And that's the way that is our plight in life is to be artists and filmmakers. And last question, sir, three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, oh man of today of today of today.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:07:54
Oh, yeah, every you could tell me this question tomorrow and it could be three different films. I would say one that's always on the top of my list is Milos Foreman's Amadeus. That's so good. One of my all time all time favorite films. My mom had it on LaserDisc. For me, my brothers used to watch the tone of it. It's hilarious. F Abram Murray performance is incredible. The production design, it's just such a watchable film like and I love films that have a lot of music involved in them into the editing and visual language. And that's a film where it just blends everything. So well. And I also love classical music. So that's, that's one of my all time favorites. Mmm hmm. It's tough to stop. I think my old time one sock film would be Goodfellas. Yeah, you know what the one sock fit what it wants to film is?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
No, I don't know what a one sock film is. What is the one sock film?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:02
Oh, okay. So I might be quoting this wrong. But so I don't remember when this was but at some point, I think it was Guillermo del Toro, I could be wrong. He tweeted or wrote that that was the film. I think he was saying Zodiac was a one sock film. And then he explained what it once I've done it so once I film is your TV's on, right, movies on you're getting ready to leave, right and you're putting all your clothes on. Right? And then you put one sock on and you're watching the movie and then you just sit there with one sock on and watch the rest of the movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:35
Great. That's awesome. Goodfellas is a one sock film.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:09:39
Yes. Without question Goodfellas is my one sock movie because it doesn't matter where I am. I just watch it. And when I'm on a flight in there's all these other movies that I should watch. I usually just watch Goodfellas. And again, I think you know, the energy and the filmmaking that Scorsese the language he uses it Just so watchable you know, I mean, there's just the energy to it that like, sure it's It's low. And then third film. I don't know. I feel like I have to do like something classic problem. Do whatever you want it.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:14
Oh, great. We'll talk. Yeah, talk. Your story's amazing.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:17
I got some love to the Japanese. So,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:21
My friend it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today man. I know we can geek out for another two, three hours but I appreciate you coming on the show man. Listen to continued success. When does your the new film come out?

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:32
So IFC is distributing it much love the ISC. Thank God. It's been amazing working with them. It comes out February 11. There it will be in theaters and on VOD at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
Fantastic.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:10:47
And certain cities, they're still I think they're still figuring out all of the exact cities and you know, but yeah, February 11.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:54
I appreciate you brother. Continued success, man. And thank you for thank you for taking me down the journey with you, man. It was fun.

Josef Kubota Wladyka 1:11:01
Thank you. I really, really appreciate it.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 353: How to Make an Indie Film Against All Odds with Tzvi Friedman

February 8, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

As filmmakers we all have challenges to make our films. Today’s guest had to deal with obstacles that most of us would never have to. We have on the show filmmaker Tzvi Friedman and he has on heck of a story to tell.

Tzvi is a writer and director based in NYC. He was born and raised in an ultra-religious community where almost all cinema was contraband. Growing up he secretly watched countless movies under his covers and sneaking off to the cinemas. At 18 he started making films, becoming a social outcast, but that didn’t stop him.

He has since directed multiple short films. At 21 he crowdfunded $10,000 dollars and made his first feature Man.

Tortured by his inability to feel emotional or physical pain, a man finds murder to be his only respite – until he meets a lonely woman whose compassion awakens something inside.

After he finished shooting the film, by some miracle, veteran producer Cary Woods (Swingers, Scream, Godzilla, and Rudy) discovered his film and jumped on as an executive producer to help Tzvi finish the film.

Enjoy my inspirational conversation with Tzvi Friedman.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome the show. It's the Tzvi Friedman, how're you doing?

Tzvi Friedman 0:15
I'm doing good. I'm doing good. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I'm doing good brother. I'm doing good, man. Thank you for coming on the show, like we were talking about earlier, before we got on the air is I get, I get hit up almost 20 30 times a day now. Without question by filmmakers wanting to be on the show. And I try to make I try to make as much room as I can. But at a certain point, we can't hear the same story again and again and again. You know, like, you know, I've made my movie for 5000 bucks. That's great. And if it was 1991, I'd probably have you on the show much faster. But your story actually kind of has a very unique, it has a few unique elements to it. So we're going to get into that as well. But can you tell the audience a little bit? Because you were talking earlier. You've you found me. You've been listening to me for a little while. So how did you find me? And and how have I been able to even help you? On your on your path?

Tzvi Friedman 1:04
Yeah, sure. So basically, you know, when I decided to get into filmmaking, I knew right away, I wasn't going to do the college route, the film school route, for various reasons. So you know, YouTube, to me was sort of the, you know, wealth of information. Everything is on YouTube nowadays. And you can also listen to various channels, and one of them was Indie Film Hustle. I mean, I have a lot of friends who listened to you and all your channel, you know, pretty popular among us some, uh, we call the underground filmmakers. So, yeah, so we just listened to it. And I also saw your evolution, which is pretty wild. You know, like, I remember, you were talking to, you know, sort of like mid level producers and directors and now you're talking to Oliver Stone. And you know, it's pretty, pretty crazy. And congratulations to that.

Alex Ferrari 1:53
Thank you know, I've been I've been very, I've been very humbled and blessed to be be speaking to the people I've been speaking to lately. And it's been, it's, it's been humbling to say the least, man. And it's, I'm glad and a lot of my audience have heard just told me that they're like, man, I've seen you when I was there at the beginning, when you were just talking to like, you know, you know, just young filmmakers. And now you're, you're talking to, you know, legends and things. And it's been very, I look, man, if I can get any information out of those guys, and gals, and bring it to the underground filmmaker, to an independent filmmaker who didn't have the opportunity to sit down for an hour to talk to I would I want to, I want to be able to do that. So, but thanks, man, I'm glad. I'm glad I've been of service to you on your journey. And I always find it fascinating how you how people find me, and like and how it you know, because I don't get to talk to people often. You know, listeners I generally, and you see them at a film festival every once in a while. So how did you get started in the business? Man, what made you want to jump into this ridiculous business?

Tzvi Friedman 2:55
Was a good question. I don't know if I made the right choice no I'm kidding. Um, it wasn't really like that. It wasn't really so much of a business. And like most of us, you know, it was, um, you know, I was obsessed with movies from a very young age, I didn't really know that somebody made movies, you know, you don't realize that there's like, somebody orchestrating the, you know, the story. I'm actually I think I wanted to be an actor to tell the truth on way back like that. Like, I think that I wanted to be in the movies. That's all I wanted. From a pretty young age. And then I'm not sure exactly when I realized that there was a director, I think it might have been a mini doc about the making of Lord of the Rings. And I remember seeing Peter Jackson, it was like two in the morning or something. It might have been the hobbit I'm not sure. Anyways, and he's driving to like, pick up the DP or something. And just like the whole vibe, and the whole, you know, they're all joking around. And I think that might have been, you know, when I started to realize that there was this one guy, you know, there's puppeteer, basically. Um, and then I just became obsessed with the concept of the director, you know, and, yeah, yeah. So

Alex Ferrari 4:03
I remember I remember in The Lord of the Rings, Docs, this is when the First Lord of the Rings came out, that he released that same DVD set that just had like seven hours or 10 hours of like, how they made it on each movie. And the one thing I always never forgot is that he had his, he had his crew carry around a lazy boy. And that was his director's chair. Like a recliner, like a full not like a director's chair. He like how to full recliner and they would just carried around from set to set, and he would sit there and he do everything and then he get up. I was like, why hasn't that become a thing? I have no idea.

Tzvi Friedman 4:41
Well that's Peter Jackson though, you know,

Alex Ferrari 4:43
If you're Peter Jackson, and you've already released the first Lord of the Rings, I think you can get away with this stuff. By the way, everyone listening. If you're an independent filmmaker, do not I repeat, do not bring a recliner on set and say it's your director's chair. People will hate you

Tzvi Friedman 5:00
Yeah. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, just about the director's chair. I remember, you know, my first few short films, I never sat down, you know, just sure the whole time adrenaline rush. I remember seeing Roger Corman, you know, very some interview of his not too long ago, he must have been pretty sure he's still alive, right?

Alex Ferrari 5:21
Yes, he is still alive.

Tzvi Friedman 5:24
And he was saying how, you know, asking, like directors advice, and you think he's gonna talk about lenses and whatever, or whatever it might be. And he says, just make sure to have a chair to sit down. And you know, that was his. That was his advice.

Alex Ferrari 5:38
I spoke to a steady cam, I think that the inventor of the steady cam, and he goes, What's the best piece of advice for anybody who wants to learn a steady game, and he's like, good shoes. Comfortable shoes is the biggest piece of advice. Now, tell me a little bit about your background, before you jumped into filmmaking? Because from what you told me in your email, you know, filmmaking is not really looked nice, very positively by your family. So how did what would that? Because that what are the struggles you had to deal with with that?

Tzvi Friedman 6:12
Yeah, so you know, I'll speak vaguely a little bit, because I don't want to get into much rattled, but I'm sure but basically, I come from a religious community or ultra orthodox community, Jewish community. And I think like a lot of very far right, religious communities. That's a far right, I don't mean politically far out, I mean, religiously, very conservative. They have a weird relationship with movies in general, and with Hollywood business, just the concept of Hollywood, Hollywood is sort of the Boogeyman. For a lot of people, in my community, and on Yeah, it's a, I think, um, a lot of it has to do with, you know, Hollywood sort of was the, the front runner of the, you know, counterculture revolution. And I think a lot of it started there, you know, a lot of, you know, just the way, Hollywood, you know, the sexuality in Hollywood, you know, 60s and on, you know, Rebel Without a Cause all these movies, you know, were seen as a threat to, to religious communities and to my community. So that's part of the part of it is like, so Hollywood's this big, scary thing. And there's a lot of immorality there and things like that. Um, and then, yeah, I think that's, that's really what it is. So in my family really was the same thing. You know, modern movies, I wasn't able to see Star Wars or Pirates of the Caribbean and stuff that's, you know, pretty much tailored for kids even that, you know, because there's a fear that it has traces of, you know, either ideologies that disagree with the religion, you know, postmodern idea, and things like that, or, you know, explicit scenes and, you know, stuff like that. So, um, so that's basically where I come from.

Alex Ferrari 8:03
So alright, so then you you see a little film called Star Wars. What happens after you see Star Wars? By the way, you're not the only one who saw Star Wars and like, James Cameron did that too. So that you're in good company that Star Wars changed your life.

Tzvi Friedman 8:19
Yeah, I hope that was unique, but I guess, not so much. Yeah, no. So So I had a neighbor who was, you know, also religious, but more modern than me. His parents were more chilled, so they let him see a lot of stuff. And he would just rant and rave about Star Wars. And I didn't know anything about it. But I just, I just knew I had to see this thing. He had the toy lightsaber, he had like, video games. So I just, um, yes, I just looked it up one day on my dad's computer. And I saw a new hope in like, parts, I'm pretty sure at one time, if not the whole thing, or part of it was just on YouTube. This is, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago, whatever it is. Um, so I saw the first the first Star Wars and, and, you know, I think I always had my mom would read us, like science fiction and books. So it's not that I you know, I, I knew about these worlds, but only in my head. Sure. And then when I saw Star Wars, the first time I actually saw it on a screen that that in movies, people are able to do this, they're able to, you know, create these crazy fantasies and these worlds and it was as simple as that. It just, you know, it was it was like the Big Bang for me, you know, it was Yeah, and I just became obsessed with Star Wars and playing Star Wars with my brothers and having lightsaber fights and stuff and right so I think the Star Wars obsession really was like the story of the bug that bit me you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:45
Yeah, the as I as I like to call it the beautiful disease, or the beautiful infection that is filmmaking, one because once you get it, you can't get rid of it. No matter how hard no matter how hard you try, or no matter what obstacles are up and to be in your way. It's something you just have to do. Just have to do. So which brings me to your first movie, man. How did you you know living in the in the environment that you were living in not getting much support I'm assuming from your family or community? How did you generate the not only the energy to make it but to find the money for it and all that whole thing? So how did that whole process come along?

Tzvi Friedman 10:24
I didn't know I didn't dumb and think as you can see.

Alex Ferrari 10:28
You look, you look as you look as old as I am. And I'm joking!

Tzvi Friedman 10:35
Oh, yeah, it's so basically trying to get the timeline. Right. So basically, I went to Israel, actually, I went to study in Israel, you know, on the hopes of becoming like a big rabbi or whatever. And it was a very intense thing. It was a good experience. But it just didn't work out for me. A lot of good friends who went there to study. But I was a movie addict, the movie junkie, like, that's how I got through high school. Like, you know, there was a time where I was dorming. And in a very serious religious school where, you know, if they would catch you with watching a movie, you were thrown out. And we just watched movies under our covers, literally, I remember seeing Schindler's List in my dorm room on a tiny phone, you know, for the first time,

Alex Ferrari 11:17
I'm sure, Stephen, I'm sure Stephen exactly how he wants you to watch it.

Tzvi Friedman 11:20
So, so basically, so basically, when I came back, I got a job as an assistant teacher in a school. But it was just a soul crushing job. And, and I just had this, you know, like, buzzing my ear, like this little whisper in my ear. And then eventually, um, and then I had a friend who passed away, sadly, and, and right before he passed away, I was talking to him about I want to be a director, you know, and he came from the similar we grew up together, went to school together. But he, but at the time, he became more open minded and everything. And we both we saw a Goodfellas we saw, like all the classics together, I saw Goodfellows in his grandmother's basement, you know? So, you know, he was very positive about it. And he said, You know, I think you should do this, and then he, and then he literally died a week later. So, yeah, he was, he was an incredible guy would do dinero impressions and all this. So. So that really compelled me, I think, like, I remember being at his funeral and his burial. And I just felt really angry. And I just decided, like, I'm just gonna try to do this, you know. So I basically, um, you know, I had this idea for a short film. Turns out the short film was gonna cost like, $100,000 to make, you know, that's how it goes. And you first start, you write a script, it was like a mixture of Blade Runner and all these different things. And, and I remember, like, I went online, I was looking for a producer, and I found some girl on Upwork I don't remember one of these things. I wanted the, you know, the film sites. And she said, Yeah, well, I'll produce it, you know, so I meet with her, she said, Oh, first we have to make a trailer, you know, like a sizzle reel, or whatever, to raise money through Indiegogo. So basically, we ended up getting $2,000 from this. Basically, I used to work with special needs children. So there was a kid I was taking care of, and his dad was like a big fan of this movie obsession of mine. So he gave me like $2,000 cash on the spot for the trailer. Amazing. So we made this trailer. And it was an utter disaster. I mean, it just didn't work out and we raised like $100 is like my older brother who gave them money you know, like on Indiegogo was pretty embarrassing. So then, you know, it was like back to square one again. I'm like, How in the world is this gonna happen? It just is, you know, the trailer was pretty good, I think but it just didn't fly. It just didn't work out. And then I remember I was watching Vice News did a thing on Christopher Nolan's following they interviewed him about zero budget and I was watching his advice and he basically said just take a camera you know the the thing that they say but to me the thing about him certain filmmakers you could see like you could tell they sort of come from the underground world but here's the guy who made inception and all these things. And then I saw a following and it's this real you know guy yeah, like glued together you know with popsicle sticks or whatever it's a brilliant film brilliant but um, but it just it's It's unbelievable to see that he went from there to there. So I basically he did it advice I took a camera I shot a short film you know, I only money was to the camera and stuff into the makeup artist. And I felt it was okay you know like I put it out there some people liked it. Some people didn't. But um, but that's that's basically how it starts just kept making short films. Then I produced a short film for this thing called the indie film collective. I was an interesting experience. And then we made another short film. And then just over time making all these short films, I picked up a very small following on the internet. I mean, when I say small film, I like maybe 10 15 People, whatever it is, but it was enough that at a certain point, I just decided it's time to make a feature film. And, you know, and I kept trying to make feature films or like trying to get or get it off the ground, but it just never worked, you know, and my older brother, he's a pretty well to do successful business guys completely self made. And he just said, you have to you don't be embarrassed, just have to ask people, you know, and again, you know, where I'm from. People don't really know what that like, there's no such thing as somebody's going to make movies. It's, it's bizarre, you know,

Alex Ferrari 15:32
I know the feeling. I know the feeling.

Tzvi Friedman 15:34
Yeah. It's what the other people do, you know, like, it doesn't it's not a real profession that could ever happen. So I think I was at my friend's engagement party, or, you know, ultra orthodox engagement party, and I just summed up the cards, and I just started asking people upfront, I said, you know, could I have money for my movie? And they're like, You're movie what? You know, and I think I quickly explained why I was like, trembling. Yeah, making a movie, you know, and then Christopher and all I can just try to explain to them, and a lot of the guys there that just very kind people very generous and said, whatever, let the kid go do his high school play or whatever they were doing, you know, we I raised like, $800 to $1,000, literally that day, just from asking people, you know, just basically bullying people to giving me money. And then with that seed money, we I joined forces with a friend of mine, and we basically started raising money online crowdfunding on Indiegogo. And we raised like, $8,000 that way, and I put in another 1000 of my own, and we basically managed to get the budget together. Um, but yeah, but there was no, it wasn't easy. Let's put it that way.

Alex Ferrari 16:38
So so then when you get the movie done, then you're now and you basically got it in the can. But from what you told me, you basically, were kind of kicked out of your house, and you were like, sleeping on the floor on a couch with your sister. You know, we all have struggles as filmmakers, man like there's no question this is you're trying to get your feature. May we all got a bag, we get a bag and you know, sometimes steel. Do whatever you got to do to get the movie done. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's the insanity of being a filmmaker, but, but you have the extra stress of also not having a place to live in at this point. And all that stuff. How did you break through that man? How did you break? Because I've never experienced that. I always was curious.

Tzvi Friedman 17:21
Yeah, yeah. So. So also, throughout the shooting, we shot once a week. So I was shooting once a week. And when I'm shooting, I feel like you know, you feel you, you're on top of the world when you're shooting.

Alex Ferrari 17:30
Oh, yeah, it's a drug, it's a drug. Absolutely.

Tzvi Friedman 17:33
It's a drug your high, you know, and then I would come home and not, you know, my siblings are amazing, you know, my brothers, they're very supportive and stuff, you know, but I don't blame nobody, you know, like, how are they supposed to know what the hell I'm doing? I you know, and it's not just, it's not just a religious thing. A lot of parents aren't, you know, regardless, any, anything in the arts is insane. So I would come home, I come back here, and they'd be like, you know, there was, you know, you're kind of like a rock star when you're directing. And then you come home and it's like, you know, you it's like, coming back to the slums. You know, you're, you're, it's like a descent. So it was really pressing, in a way it was like, swinging between these different worlds. And, yeah, and then. So the shooting itself was, there was a lot of a lot of stress in not just the production, but just the, like this dichotomy or duality that I was dealing with, going from basically sinning, you know, doing the grave sin of right, you know, making movies, which is this again, like, sort of, like, taboo satanic thing, and then and then coming home and you know, whatever, participating in the Sabbath and all this stuff, and then yeah, then we finished we wrapped shooting, it wasn't the most satisfying production, you know, again, it's, it's the first feature film, sure it for a penny. And then I come home and, you know, I'm again, I don't want to tell tell you too much about I'm sure. Basically, it's a combination of, you know, I wasn't I didn't have a proper income. You know, I didn't really I wasn't making money didn't have a real you know, my parents were very worried about me, you know, I didn't have a career path. And then again, it's the movies it's all these things coupled together. And I basically just pissed off enough people and they were like, you know, it sparks flew and I basically was told nicely to leave and I went to my older sister, you know, who was living in Queens and I just I was just sleeping in her husband study on a mattress on the floor. And it wasn't that bad though. They were pretty good to me and all and um, but I was really desperate to get a job you know, it was kind of like the Wake Up Calls like alright, this movie dream probably is not going to work you know, I made this movie wasn't edited at all. We didn't caught it just a bunch of hard drives at this point. It was just hard drive just sitting there my editor Christian who works for complex media who I met a whole different story but he edited all my shorts basically. He put together a trailer for me and a reel because I you know I call I'm like frantically saying I'm doomed. And he was, he's always been like, he's my right hand, man, you know, like, it's not for him, I wouldn't be anywhere. So he was really supportive. He's like, I'll make you a real don't worry about it, he made me reel made me a trailer. And I put it into a resume and I just started applying to film jobs, because I didn't want to go back to being an assistant teacher, whatever it might be. Um, and, and I went to Mandy, my older brother, I was so broke, I didn't have like, $1, you know, filmmaker. So my older brother, he paid for my Mandy subscription, you know, for like, a month. And I'm just applying to like everything in the world, you know, Pa D, should I remove old picture, low budget horror movie and all this stuff. And I applied to maybe 3040 things or whatever it might have been. And then I applied to a director gig like a horror movie director gig. And of course, you know, that would, that would have been great, you know. And then like, a week later, I got a call from some guy, the producer of this horror movie. And he's like, is this three Friedman? I'm like, yeah. And he says, um, you know, I saw your resume or whatever, why don't you come down and let's, let's have a chat, whatever, let's get lunch, whatever it was. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get the job. You know, I'm so desperate now, at this time at this point. And I remember it's snowing, freezing cold, I go out there. And like, a second I meet the guy, he's like, you know, I don't think you're the right fit for the job. And I'm like, Oh, great. Another one of these, you know? Yeah, meeting time. Um, and then he says, but um, I saw the trailer for your feature, I saw some of your shorts, and I really like it. And I sent your work to my friend Cary Woods. I have no idea what that is. But again, this guy, this guy, you know, he thinks he assumes I know, you know, like, he doesn't realize like, you know, where I'm coming from, you know, that I've no, you know, connection with the business whatsoever. And he's like, he wants to he really wants to meet you. So when I leave the meeting, I call up my editor, Christian, and I say, Oh, my God, this guy. He said, Cary Woods his whole thing was I looked up, I Googled Cary Woods right after, and I saw his credits. Um,

Alex Ferrari 21:52
He's a legend. He's a legend. Yeah.

Tzvi Friedman 21:54
Yeah. And Christian, my editor. Again, I love him. This is to disparage him, but he just was like, come on. And you know, you because you know, people, he's been in the business much longer than me. And he's in a much more professional, severe. And he's had horror stories. So he was like, you know, I wouldn't just don't get don't get your hopes up.

Alex Ferrari 22:13
Right. I would say the exact same thing if you were talking to me.

Tzvi Friedman 22:16
Yeah. And like, I waited for like, a week, I was like, should I call back this guy and ask him and like, I was waiting with my phone. They're like, you know, and then I get a call from this producer again. And he said, Why don't you come over Friday evening, for dinner with carry, he'll be there, you know? So I go, there I go, I go to this, like penthouse again, like, you know, I didn't grow up poor or anything, but you know, just regular middle class. Sure. Family, five siblings, a, you know, everybody that lives very simply where I come from, and all of a sudden, I'm in this, you know, crazy apartment. And there's Carrie, and he looks like right out of his Wikipedia page. You know, it's a little weird. I was like, I kind of thought, you know, but, um, and, you know, like, we didn't really talk March, you know, I didn't, I didn't try to sell myself or anything. But it was it was weird to be in a place where like, everybody was filmmakers. on a on a slightly high end on a slightly in a much higher level than me all in the business. And who appreciated my work, which is really surreal. For that's a cool experience Yeah, it was, it was also like another type of high, you know, like, I was used to always feeling guilty about my work. And, you know, at one time, I would show it to my work to my parents, but they just didn't understand it. They thought it was bizarre. You know, and, you know, my dad would watch very, my dad has a good taste in movies, but it was more very conventional, very formulaic classics. And here, I'm trying to make like a button. Well, weird, experimental, right? Yeah. And he's like, you know, what's with the hands, or whatever, you know, so getting that or even my religious friends who love movies, but like thing, like, they want to watch like Michael Mann's heat or something. They're not, you know, sure. Are all French movies. Um, so basically, yeah, so that was a really great feeling. And then a few days later, Cary texted me said, Hey, let's get let's get coffee or something. And we got coffee. And you know, we just talked movies, and he has all kinds of crazy Hollywood stories. You know, your hero complex is Robert De Niro. So in Marvel, here's my favorite actor. So we spoke about that he worked with Warner Hertzog on Playboy, just endless stories. And he also was an agent before he was a producer, you know, so he's all kinds of stories about that. And then what I don't remember exactly the timeline, I don't want to distort the facts. But but more or less, he basically called me up one day and he said, Hey, I'll help you. I'm going to try to help you finish your feature film. I'll see if I can get some investors and whatever. Um, and, and yeah, that like my, you know, you can imagine I was like in seventh heaven. Um, and then we got investors. He got me a lawyer. And then he actually connected with this unbelievable film producer Jonathan Gray, who's an indie film producer. or also did a bunch of pretty flannel pajamas and blue capris, and you name it, he did a lot of very critically acclaimed films Dark Knight, not the Dark Knight Dark Knight, which went to Sundance couple years ago. And he basically became a producing partner with carry on this film. And he gave us an office at his studio, gigantic Studios, which was insane. Just like Monster just squatting there. And me and Chris Christian and I, my editor. We just were coming there and I was able to pay Christian finally, and I never paid him in my life. Am a few dollars, you know, that was nice. And yeah, that's a sort of the story in a nutshell. I don't know. I'm just wow, man.

Alex Ferrari 25:40
That's that's that's a pretty remarkable story. Because that was the twist that that also added another layer to this onion, that is your stories, because like, you know, trying to get your movie made all this kind of stuff. But then all of a sudden getting a major producer like Carrie woods on board, who's a legend. He's an indie film Legend. I mean, from swingers to kids, and so many other movies he's made over the years, you know, to get him on board with essentially a first time filmmaker, I was fascinated by how the hell did this happen. I always love these little stories of how people connect and how things fall apart, fall into place. And it's just luck being at the right place, right time. Like, in what I don't want people listening to understand this is that there is no path that you can copy. You know, I wasted a good decade trying to figure out how to copy Kevin Smith pass or Robert Rodriguez's path, or Ed burns path like these, these guys, you can't can't copy their path because their paths are unique to them. So the time frame when that happens, so you place an ad, go for an interview, they happen to watch your short a I have a friend of like there's so many things that were magical,

Tzvi Friedman 26:54
It insane, insane.

Alex Ferrari 26:57
It's luck. It's luck. But if you didn't have all those shorts, if you didn't have a trailer, if you hadn't had a movie, ready in the can, nobody would have it, this wouldn't have happened. So it's it is truly when luck meets preparation. And that's exactly your story. It's It's pretty. It's a pretty magical story. So now, where are you with the movie? You're still finishing it up in post, so you're getting ready to put it out to the festivals.

Tzvi Friedman 27:22
Yeah, so we are we already submitted to a bunch of festivals, but it's still a quote unquote working progress. We're doing the music now. That's where we're at now. So we're picture locked, we're doing the music, literally, like we just started yesterday. And also the color which we're basically finished. Um, and yeah, we're just we're just trying you know, you know, nowadays you have you know, it's not like it used to be now you have literally 10s of 1000s of films, you know, everybody with their $100,000 movie. There's just a lot of competition it's very easy to get lost in the pile. Um, and yeah, it's it's really it's sort of playing a lottery you know that a day.

Alex Ferrari 28:05
Yeah, it's it's pretty in you know, if you've listened to the show, and you've seen the show, you know, I've talked about distribution and how to get your movie up there and stuff. It is very difficult to get an independent film with no you have no stars if I'm a mistake you have no faces are stars in the movie.

Tzvi Friedman 28:20
We have some future stars I'm on my right to say that to be nice. We, particularly the main actor in our movie. On time, he was on the Broadway show, cabaret. Sam Mendez is a production but he's a brilliant actor. Brilliant. His name's John Peterson. A shout out to John Baba he he's really remarkable you know, these series that we've been showing the movie to now like we you know, we're showing it to all sides forever they're all like wow you know so the thing is if Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 28:52
Yeah so but but as far as distribution is concerned, yeah. Yeah, if I walk into distributors room and like, Hey, I got a lot of future starts it's gonna be like, get the hell out of here. But no, but not not lack of talent, but lack of star power means recognizable faces. Right? So without that it is difficult to do it unless you can a kid into a film festival that could be you know, that likes it and gets some awards and maybe get some attention. But you know, it just as a non it's an you haven't asked me for this advice, but this is what I would do. I would use Kerry Woods his name as much as he allows you to use it to open doors for you because that name does carry a lot of weight in the indie film space. And that they're like, wait a minute, if Kerry's executive producing this guy's film, I should maybe watch it because of his track record. So you've got an ace in the hole without question. It's not gonna help you it might help you a little bit in distribution but it will definitely help you in the film festival circuit without Question

Tzvi Friedman 29:55
Yeah, there you know, I got like, I don't know how what I'm allowed to say but like you

Alex Ferrari 29:59
Don't Don't say I don't want to get in trouble don't get in trouble.

Tzvi Friedman 30:02
Exactly. I don't either want to get in trouble but no definitely carry but not again, not just Cary we have, we have a lot of the Cary sort of built an army around the

Alex Ferrari 30:10
Right. So um, it's amazing that he, it's amazing that a producer of his magnitude who's done so many films over the years, still is hunting for that, you know that diamond in the rough. It just trying to grab something and trying to help a filmmaker along and that's another part of the story that I love is that someone like him is not too high up in the mountain. We're all the gods, the filmmaking gods live, like mountain Olympus, you know, where Spielberg and Lucas and all those guys live? That they're able that he's still willing to to do because it doesn't have to mean he's completely doesn't have to do anything. But he wants to because he loved the process so much and wants to help young voices come out. So that's a really, that's a really pretty awesome part of the story. So I'll gotta get Carrie on the show. One day, I want to talk to Carrie.

Tzvi Friedman 31:04
Thank you. I think you do it. Yeah. Yeah, he's, he's just a really, I mean, you know, I don't know why he decided to do this. You'll have to ask him.

Alex Ferrari 31:14
You're like, Man, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know how this happened.

Tzvi Friedman 31:19
Kind of like, you know, the movie being there. Which is actually when it carries favorite movies. Oh, yeah. Oh, I love the colors. Yeah, just like he's just like this, you know, um, I think he's supposed to be on the spectrum, if I'm not mistaken. And he's just, just like, stumbling into you know, power, you know, the powerful people and and all these rooms, and you're just like, whoa, what am I doing here? And I get that all the time. You know, like, I'll be at an like, again, like, once you meet these people, all of a sudden, you're at these events. And also, you're meeting these people who somebody people inspired you to, like, do this thing now. And you're just, it's bizarre, and you're not sure and they ask you like, who are you? And you're like, I'm not sure who I am. But um, you know, security? Yeah. But um, but Buckcherry is a really righteous guy. I think he's a really, he's just a really good person, you know, above all else. He's he really, he's, like, a real cinephile. He really loves, you know, even though he might have produced some really big commercial movies, too. But he, he just loves cinema. And, and I think he just really wants to try, you know, he sees himself sort of maybe again, I shouldn't, you know, you have to ask him, but my read is that he really feels like a guardian of cinema. And, yeah, and that's why I got lucky, you know, I bumped into him, but um, you know, but yeah, that's why he again, he didn't he hasn't just done this for me. I'm not the only but pretty much. Many of the directors he's worked with were all first time directors, you know. And

Alex Ferrari 32:51
Doug Liman Yeah. Doug Liman with swingers and John Favre, and that whole crew, I mean, helping them along, and the list goes on and on. I mean, he's helped so many filmmakers

Tzvi Friedman 33:02
M.Night Shyamalan.

Alex Ferrari 33:04
A couple guys, a couple guys,

Tzvi Friedman 33:05
A second, like legit movie, like, I might did like a low budget, indie that went to a bunch of festivals, but his, his second, you know, like, more studio film or whatever, Carryade that happen. And, yeah, the list goes on forever. But um, you know, yeah, so it's really cool. And also, another cool thing is that Cary's producing a film called Maggie Moore's, which is a Jon Hamm movie right now, you know, in New Mexico. So it's just funny how we're making our little $10,000 movie and stuff and Carrie sending us notes. And then he's, you know, busy with these guys. It's really weird.

Alex Ferrari 33:38
It's and I just, I also, I also wanted to have you on the show, because I want filmmakers out there listening to see that this has happened Still, these kind of little, this lottery ticket moment, there are these are kind of lottery ticket moments. I mean, look, look, you're not making the next Marvel movie yet, or anything like that. But you are definitely on a path that will hopefully build a career for yourself and having a champion help you and we all everyone needs a champion Spielberg to look, you know, every one of the gods, the filmmaking gods that we look up to had a champion. If it wasn't for Steven Soderbergh, Nolan wouldn't have gotten insomnia. And without insomnia, he wouldn't have gotten Batman and the rest of that goes on and on if there's always a champion. So I'm just glad that that, that we could put this kind of story out there for filmmakers to hopefully hold on to and go look, there's a hope you got to just got it. The thing is that you just have to do the work without expectation because that's exactly what you did. You did the you didn't have any expectation of anything happening to you. Other than hopefully this is going to get made and hopefully I'll be able to do another one, let alone teaming up with carriers and becoming Oh. Let me ask you, I want to ask you about what is when you were on set, I always like to ask the question when you were on set, shooting one day a week, which is fascinating, which is awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. What was the toughest day on set, like that day that you felt everything was gonna come crashing down around you? And how did you overcome it?

Tzvi Friedman 35:16
That's almost every day, but many days. I'm like, we just have crazy, crazy stories. I mean, again, not. Not anything new but but fun. You know? So we were operating with like, it was a tiny who, first of all, like, some of our crew pulled out, you know, last shock. Last, Shocking. Shocking. Exactly. So we have to do the scramble, Facebook, all that all that jazz. Went to makeup artists like I don't you ever saw manbites manbites dog,

Alex Ferrari 35:43
Of course. It's amazing, amazing film, everybody listening, watch man bites dog. It's on criterion,

Tzvi Friedman 35:50
They keep killing the sound mixer. The reservoir. So that's basically what it was like, we were going through makeup artists like a revolving door, you know? Because again, we didn't really have money. So that's how it goes. Right? Nobody first you know, very people want to get and it was in the middle of the winter. But the second day, the second the second day, which is the second week, it was going to be one of these 18 hour days, and we're shooting in multiple locations. And we were at the beach, we decided to make it into the film and None None of this footage. And all of a sudden, again, I don't want to I love my crew and everything. But somebody said, Oh, we don't have we didn't have anything, we could have dumped the footage and we didn't have enough memory cards, let's just put it that way. It happens, bro. It happens. You're like one memory card, you know, and so that that was like one of the that was you know, I just started I had a full on panic attack. Um, and whenever we ended up having to drive over again, and laptop and good memory card was crazy. I mean, something as simple as that, that we didn't prepare for obviously, it was a little ridiculous. But still, we had like, I don't know what it was like a 64 gigabyte, you know, like, the whoever was supposed to bring that stuff didn't bring that stuff. That was one of them. And then we had another shoot. Well, also, we were shooting in a lot of places that were given to us as a favor and paying for it. Sure. So one of the places we were shooting at, I just remember being terrified of like things breaking, you know, and of course, we ended up breaking something. And then it was the whole thing was like who's gonna talk to the owner who's gonna make the call. And we'll just read tickets just together with the whole supervisors, just like fear because like, everybody was just like, let the kids do their thing. Let them play a little bit, you know. And then the craziest thing was, we were doing a reshoot of scene, a murder scene. And this is like, this is after the 10 weeks. This is like, this is like a few weeks later, we finally managed to get everybody available. And we're shooting a scene. And it turns out, we didn't realize that when we shot there a few weeks before dislocation was were a homeless man would sleep it was his territory. And he remembered us from the first time and he came he started like cursing us out. And my lawn producers span is from Colombia. So he speaks Spanish. So he understood what the guy was saying. But he didn't want to like tell us what the guy was saying because you don't want to scare us and we wanted to get finally conservative. He's like, I think the guy my break the camera, and I saw one and I turned around there pulls out a knife and he puts it to my AC'S neck. And he's like basically saying, you know, I'm gonna kill you if you don't leave. You know, so the first thing I did was grabbed the camera and Ron, you know, and and the whole crew followed afterwards. I was like,

Alex Ferrari 38:32
What happened to the AC what happened to the AC.

Tzvi Friedman 38:35
He was fine. But he said we you know, we just like walked away slowly like we did you know? And the guy just chased us out of there. He chased us out of the location. We couldn't go back we couldn't get any more coverage. And that was it. That's all we had. I'm afraid to go to that train. Stop now because it's near a train station.

Alex Ferrari 38:52
Wow. Yeah. It's crazy stuff and never ceases to amaze me the stories you hear about productions especially indie. No budget productions. It's there. Man, I've been there. I understand it. I I've been there's too many times to today. I haven't had anyone pull a knife on us. So that's a new one. I haven't had that. But there has been other stories to say the least. Now, I want to ask a few questions. I asked all my guests, man, what do you what advice would you give to that underground filmmaker listening like you've been listening to me? And what advice would you give them to get there, you know, to get into the business to do what they love to do?

Tzvi Friedman 39:32
Yeah, so like you said, like, there's no roadmap. Anybody who tells you there's a roadmap and end of the day I think it's bullshit. I remember I got a PA gig actually like on a big set called the good fight. CBS show. My friend Sergio was my line producer on my film. He got me in there. And I was like, I was trying. That was at one point. That was my thing. Like I just kind of get on a big set and I have no idea how right you don't go on indeed and get on a because it doesn't work that way. So it turns out these have to meet someone who knows Mondo can get you

Alex Ferrari 40:00
Networking, networking networking. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 40:02
Yeah. Which to me is kind of it's that's really frustrating to me about the about how the business it's like this very elitist, high barrier entry type thing. So I finally get on I'm gonna stand in PA, I'm given a radio and stuff, you know, and my job is to stand outside of door. I'm like, just like 1000 PhDs and I'm gonna stand outside the door and just tell people to be quiet, right? My job basically is to do nothing, but I got it was good money, but like, I did nothing the whole day. And by the by, by breakfast, I'm just trying to talk, you know, network speak to people find out like, how do you get into this mysterious place? And I remember I met the production designer of the show, and he was covered in paint, like his pants and everything. And I said, Hey, like, how did you get here? How do you and he looks at me with a big smile. He's like, you're here. I was like, Oh, thanks. Wow, great advice. But, but the point is, that there really isn't. And I remember I asked them, you know, how the actors have PA is also, you know, like the treated like royalty that can't touch the ground. So I asked them, the PA to one of the actresses like, you know, about the director, I'm like, How do you know how she got here? And she's like, you just have to do it. You know. So the point is that even when you're in the US the, you know, the inner chamber, the machine, yeah. Yeah. Like, nobody really knows. It's like, I remember seeing an interview with David Lynch. When he was doing Twin Peaks Season Three in like a cafe some woman was interviewing him. And she asked David Lynch, you know, what do you what's your advice to filmmaker, you know, asked to make a living or whatever. And he's like, I don't want to talk to such a filmmaker. You know, he was trying to say that if that's your goal, then, you know, he, you know, it was he's a very he's a purist. You know, he's

Alex Ferrari 41:44
He's an artist. He's a pure artist. Yeah,

Tzvi Friedman 41:46
Yeah, it's pure artist. But But I think it's true. Even if you do want to make a living off filmmaking, you know, you're gonna be in for a lot of heartbreak, probably, again, I'm, I'm in the very beginnings of this, I can't really, you know, give like real sagely advice. But I just think from the little that I've little path that I've traveled is that just make just, you know, make films tried to believe in yourself and on. And, but again, like some people want to I again, I don't want to impose my my thing, because I had my I put it this way, I just did my thing. I wanted to make my kind of film. I made the film, I wanted to make some I got lucky. Some people recognized it, and they appreciated it. And that was that but but who knows, you know, Ridley Scott made his made his first his first feature at 40 years old again, again, he was a big commercial director. You could you could point to that. But there plenty I mean, David Lynch was like, 33 I think what he did a raise your head? And so who knows? You know, there is no, there's no path. Ad. Yeah, there is no path. That's basically the advice that there is not no advice.

Alex Ferrari 42:52
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I get asked all the time. What that is, is like, just do what you love to do. And try it just don't don't bet the house on it. Because this is a very difficult path, digital question. And I've talked to everybody from the biggest guys to, to, like, you know, people just starting out like yourself, and it's always about, you know, how do I get in? And what do I do? I'm like, you just got to do it. And, yeah, you'll meet someone, you'll connect with somebody, maybe someone you met not now, in six years, they'll open a door for you that you didn't know about. It happens, it's happened to me, it happens all the time. It's just it. That's the thing that's so frustrating about being a filmmaker. It's unlike being a doctor or lawyer they have those are direct paths to making a career. You know, an engineer like these are direct paths. Filmmaking is just like, it's like, it's like a musician or like, arts in general, there is no, there are some paths you can take, but like to be a filmmaker to be a director to tell stories like that. It's tough, man. It's tough. But Is it doable? I talk to people every day on the show that it worked out. You know, I was able to make a career out of it as well and, and still love to do what I love to do. It's just about doing it, man. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Tzvi Friedman 44:20
Hmm, I think, um, just as a director, what I found again, like there's no universal because the honest, that's the thing, the arts are so subjective, which is why there's such a diversity of artists in so many different paths in the art world, because it's not a science. It's not a doctor. So, you know, it's not like look for a surgeon. Yeah, like, he'll tell you, you know, don't move the knife left because you'll kill the person. But um, but for an artist is very different. But for me, personally, what I found is that I used to think I remember I used to be a big Ridley Scott guy.

Alex Ferrari 44:53
Oh, I mean, Blade Runner. I mean, Jesus Christ.

Tzvi Friedman 44:56
Yeah, Blade Runner is one of those, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:59
Top 5 yeah, no, no, no question.

Tzvi Friedman 45:02
No other masterpiece. But anyways, I remember him saying like, you know how, you know, I storyboard everything. And you know, like, really? He's a tough guy. And premeditated, you know, and I remember being terrified, watching his interviews, he said, you know, if you're ninny, then this is not for you, like all the you know, and, and as I used to go into during the short, that's the, he says that it I remember seeing him say that, I remember, I would storyboard everything and just like, try to be like, very calculated, you know, and, and like, basically not let my actors breathe and, you know, be this tyrant on set, I'm going to be like Cameron and Scotland, you know, and again, it obviously it works for some for, for some people, but what I found, at least for the low budget world, is that oddly, ironically, it helps to sort of, like, let things go, like, for me, that's what I found, like, I was the biggest that I went from this feature, but this feature I came in with all these plans, and oh, boy, did I have to throw them away pretty quick, you know? Yeah. I found that, like, the magic for me happens when, when it you know, I'm avoiding the cliche of collaboration, but that's kind of what it is, like, you know, I got lucky my DP and I, we did two short films after the feature, I got like a really good relationship with Him in a really good relation with my editor, and my composer and the main actor, in my film, have a very, almost like a telepathic connection with him, you know, and we're able to sort of vibe with each other. It's kind of like a dance. And we just, you know, you have to leave, I think, for me, it's leaving room to just allow people to breathe, and let's try to let the movie sort of let it take its own form, let it come alive. It's like this organism that, you know, you only could control to a certain extent, and then you just let it live. And in fact, it ends up making the film better. I think, for me, when I allow the chaos, let the chaos take over. The chaos is good. It's not bad. You know? That's, for me. Probably the biggest creative lesson that I learned, you know,

Alex Ferrari 46:56
Fair enough. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Tzvi Friedman 47:01
And the there are none, but I could come up with three like very important films to me. Sure. Um, the 400 blows, I think would be one of my favorite films of all time Francois Truffaut. I would say I'd have to say, Christopher Nolan's Inception

Alex Ferrari 47:24
Mind blowing

Tzvi Friedman 47:25
Yeah, I have to say that one. Um, and I would say Fellini's eight and a half. Again, this is the mood now you know, your top three change, you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:37
Oh, no, that's just the three right now. Yeah, like a band plays on by Fellini,

Tzvi Friedman 47:41
I asked me when I was 10 years old, it would have been Star Wars, Star Wars and Star Wars, you know, so it just changes but right now, as a as like a filmmaker, when you're studying the craft, those are the films that really, to me, are like the most important films to me at inception to me, at least of the modern era of movies that's like to me like the Citizen Kane, my city might what I consider the citizen game for me of modern cinema.

Alex Ferrari 48:04
Well, my friend, I appreciate you coming on and being raw and honest about your story. And I wish you nothing but the best I hope man does very well and in the scene out in the festival circuit. And I hope to have you back when you're doing the next big Marvel movie or something.

Tzvi Friedman 48:23
Yeah, it's been pretty thanks for having me on the show. And it's it I still can't get over it. I'm talking to you is pretty odd listening to this voice, you know, Indie Film Hustle Podcast Talking to you, it's just it's, it's cool. And it's an honor. And it's also like, is this real? But um, okay.

Alex Ferrari 48:43
I appreciate you, brother.

Tzvi Friedman 48:45
Likewise. Yeah. Great to meet you Alex.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 348: First-Time Filmmaking, Oscars & Netflix With Scott Copper

January 4, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Scott Copper (Director, Screenwriter, Producer) made his feature film directorial debut in 2009 with Fox Searchlight’s Oscar-winning CRAZY HEART, which he also wrote and produced. The film, which starred Jeff Bridges, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Colin Farrell and Robert Duvall, earned three Academy Award nominations, winning for Best Actor (Bridges) and Best Original Song (T Bone Burnett and Ryan Bingham). Cooper won an Independent Spirit Award for Best First Feature and earned WGA, USC Scripter and Independent Spirit Award nominations, for his screenplay.

Cooper’s follow-up was the Leonardo DiCaprio/Ridley Scott-produced OUT OF THE FURNACE, starring Christian Bale, Woody Harrelson, Casey Affleck, Zoë Saldana, Forest Whitaker and Sam Shepard. For his work as writer, director and producer, Cooper won the Best Debut and Second Film Award at the 2013 Rome Film Festival, where he was also nominated for a Golden Marc’Aurelio Award. Next was Cooper’s 2015 Warner Bros. gangster film BLACK MASS, which Cooper both directed and produced and which made its worldwide debut at the Venice International Film Festival.

The box-office hit garnered wins from critics associations across the country, and earned lead actor Johnny Depp the Desert Palm Achievement Award at the Palm Springs International Film Festival, as well as a Best Actor nomination from the Screen Actors Guild. In 2017, Cooper’s western epic HOSTILES debuted at both the Telluride Film Festival and Toronto International Film Festivals, earning widespread critical acclaim. The film reunited Cooper with his OUT OF THE FURNACE star Christian Bale and featured performances from Rosamund Pike, Wes Studi, Jesse Plemons, Rory Cochrane and Ben Foster. Cooper followed this up with ANTLERS, an exploration of yet another genre in the Guillermo Del Toro-produced horror film. Searchlight released the film to acclaim in October 2021.

Most recently, Cooper re-teamed for the third time with Bale on THE PALE BLUE EYE, an adaptation of Louis Bayard’s novel of the same name. The film tells the story of a series of murders at the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1830 and a cadet the world would later come to know as Edgar Allan Poe. Robert Duvall, Gillian Anderson, Timothy Spall, Toby Jones and Harry Melling round out the cast. The Netflix film will debut in Fall of 2022. Born in Virginia, Cooper now resides in Los Angeles.

Please enjoy my conversation with Scott Copper.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Scott Copper 0:00
I mean, even when you work with trusted collaborators, there will be moments on set where there is Sturm and Drang as the director, and as the writer and as the producer, you have to be able to solve those issues.

Alex Ferrari 0:12
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show, Scott Copper man, how you doing, Scott?

Scott Copper 0:26
Great. Thank you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 0:28
Thanks for coming on the show. Man. I'm a fan man. I've been a fan for a while. Man. You you're doing some really good work, brother seriously, man.

Scott Copper 0:35
Thank you. Thanks. So upper and tougher.

Alex Ferrari 0:38
It's man, I I was just talking, I was just talking to somebody a few minutes ago about how the movie business is changing so dramatically, even from when you made Crazy Heart to now getting somebody to the movie theater. If avatar is having a problem. I mean, is a problem? You know,

Scott Copper 1:01
I suspect people go out for that though.

Alex Ferrari 1:04
I did. And I saw it. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life. Like what Jim Jim did was, ya know, it's remarkable, but it's doing well. But people are like, Oh, I should be doing better. And there's a lot of pressure on a movie like that. But other than avatar in Top Gun last year. It's tough to get people out.

Scott Copper 1:24
Man. Yeah, well, in fact, maybe that was happening also a little bit before COVID Certainly accelerated during COVID. Look, it's expensive to consider dinner and parking and then price of a movie, maybe for the kind of movies that I make. And some of my favorite filmmakers, perhaps the ticket prices should be lower. And then right will be more likely to come out because there really is nothing like experiencing. And in fact, that film will not have the same effect on you, regardless of what it is if you're watching it anywhere. But in this.

Alex Ferrari 2:05
There's no There's no question my friend. But But you've lived a very interesting life in the film industry. You've you've you came up as an actor. So my first question, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry?

Scott Copper 2:19
Well, look, it's you don't choose your obsessions, your obsession, you choose you right very much. I also spent, I was born and spent a lot of my formative years in this kind of artistic crown jewel of Virginia called Abingdon, Virginia, where the State Theatre is also a lot of great music comes out of that, that region, the mountain empire, as well as a lot of arts and crafts. So the arts were always a part of my life. My father would take me to see films at a young age at a local college. And then you know, when you're young, and you're transfixed by that, and you also had spent time as an actor, Christian Bale and I had discussed this, that people who get into the film business aren't meant to have office jobs. And I think I realized that at a young age, I also realized at a young age that there were actors who were a whole lot better at this vocation than I, especially when you're on the other side of the camera and your first film is your you're recording Jeff Bridges for posterity and Robert Duvall and Maggie Gyllenhaal and Colin Farrell, that quickly makes you realize that there are people who do it a whole lot better than you. And then my second film was Christian Bale and Casey Affleck and Woody, Willem Defoe and Sam Shepard and, and Forrest Whitaker and Zoey Sadat. And then I'm like, Okay, well, I'm definitely not gonna be an actor again. So, but quite honestly, Alex, this is I mean, I couldn't imagine a better job than being a film writer, a film director. I mean, I suppose being Mick Jagger, or Bano, Eddie Federer, someone who's a rock star, right and sings to at 100,000 people, certain events. But I love being able to express myself as a filmmaker. I love the people that I've met over the course of my career. I mean, look, I've been for an actor with an unremarkable career, I have been incredibly fortunate as a filmmaker, I'll just say that.

Alex Ferrari 4:31
You know, it's interesting, because a lot of people like, you know, everyone could play basketball. You know, generally everyone could take a ball and try to make a shot, but we're not all Michael Jordan or LeBron James. And, and that's, I think that's where you were at?

Scott Copper 4:44
Well, sure. I mean, even Robert Duvall, who was my mentor and expressed to me and still does how much he liked me as an actor Jeff Bridges the same thing but but I just have much more fun doing this and and I never even really had A chance to grow as an actor, I wasn't getting the kind of challenging parts that, that I now write for actors and I adore actors. And performance is critical to me and, and, and working with actors that I've always admired. And, you know, also being able to work with actors that teach me something, as Jeff certainly has, or Robert ball or Christian. Or even Johnny Depp. So I'm blessed man i But that's, that's just the truth.

Alex Ferrari 5:36
So at what point? Because I'm assuming as you were going down the path as an actor, there might have been some rejection not much, I'm sure but some rejection all

Scott Copper 5:45
The actor who isn't? Who isn't rejected a lot. Right. So I'll look at started 12 I mean, so yeah,

Alex Ferrari 5:53
He had he had a good start. That's Little Spielberg independent film thing. He did. Yeah. But so when you're going so when you're going through the the acting process, at what point did you say, you know, what, I'm not going to hit the all star team as an actor, I want to jump to the other side of the like, what was the point where you just said, I'm

Scott Copper 6:14
I was just auditioning a lot, and you know, kind of becoming a bridesmaid coming in second. And, and, and not getting the parts that made me want to become an actor in the first place. I think everybody who's you know, a young actor coming up in the 90s, one, you know, a career or at least I did, like Sean Penn or dinero, or PacMan or Pacino. So, when you're not getting those parts, and you're going up for leading men, and you're not really loving them, but you have to support yourself. It just, ultimately, the rejection, that's a lot. And I mean, look, we all get rejected, certainly in the arts, sure, when you make things that, that take big risks, for sure. But it was really just the continual process of of auditioning and films that I would have liked to have been in not getting parts in them. Whether it would be thin red line or Saving Private Ryan. And then I was doing a Western with Duvall being directed by the great Walter Hill, who's also a mentor of mine. And, and and you've all said, you know, you should really write something. And of course, I ended up at the time I had spending a lot of time considering writing the film about Merle Haggard. He had too many ex wives getting the rights were difficult. So I ended up writing precis Hart and Duvall was the first person to read it. And, and you know, Alex, the truth is when Jeff Bridges says yes to your film, it changes your life. And that's exactly what happened to me.

Alex Ferrari 7:52
So is that how you got? Because I was gonna ask like, you're basically a first time filmmaker at this point. Yeah, you've been on set for a long time. But you're a first time writer.

Scott Copper 8:00
That's right. never directed a film. I've never directed a commercial. I've never directed a high school play. But I know this world. And I know that by surrounding myself with great collaborators, production designers, customers, cameraman, women, that sort of thing that I knew that I can tell the story. And Jeff, I remember it is is though it were yesterday, Jeff said, so this is your first time. Yeah. So it is. He said, Well, I've had a lot of success with first time directors, Fabulous Baker Boys being one of them. That I'm in. And you know, Alex, at that point in my life was never the same.

Alex Ferrari 8:40
And so I have to ask you, first day on set, you're sitting, you're the big man on your big man on campus first day? How do you deal with not only the pressure of the first day and making sure that you make that first day, but you're looking through the lens? And you see Jeff Bridges? They're like, and you're directing a legend? Multiple legends, by the way in that film? How do you deal with that as a director?

Scott Copper 9:07
Well, you deal with it by forgetting to call cut. And my ad cabinet shows looking at me as the scene had finished. And I'm transcendent, this is the truth and I'm transfixed and, and she looked at me, she said, and I said, Cut. And literally, it was like, my god, I remember that night that Jeff Bridges is taking dialogue that I have written in taking it to places that I never expected. And that's especially because I've written specifically for him. That's the sign of a great actor. And now, five films later it's happened in, in every film, thankfully.

Alex Ferrari 9:46
So the one thing that's so impressive about your work not only the writing and the directing, but the cast that you're able to attract is honestly unheard of. I mean, your second film, that list of actors, any one of them could have been the star. But a lot of them took secondary roles because they wanted to work on the project. How do you attract all of these? I mean, it's film after film after film after film. As I'm going through filmography, I'm just like, how the hell is this guy grabbing, I know it's the material. But like, even good material doesn't attract a lot of times because of politics and schedules. And this or that.

Scott Copper 10:23
And often that is that is the case, it's difficult to get all the actors that you're referring to everybody else wants, and trying to fit them into a schedule is often one of the most difficult things to do about making a film. But I think, look, certainly the success of of of Crazy Heart has helped when when you're filming, your first film is nominated for three Oscars of wins a couple. That certainly changes the calculus for everybody else, when they see how wonderful Jeff is Maggie and Colin and Duvall, and on and on and on, right. So that probably doesn't happen if that film doesn't have the success, but it did. And then out of the furnace had kind of like a murderer's row of actors that all of whom are, you know, considered to be favorites of mine. So I think once those two films were made, I think actors felt like you know what he, I can feel safe with Scott, because that's the key is to really make an actor feel very safe, safe to take big risks, knows that I'm going to protect them not only on the day when we're shooting, but also in the cutting room. I think the actors that we're talking about know that I'm more interested in films that push me into an uncomfortable space, I've spoken to all of them about the great danger is really doing safe work, where all of the edges are sanded off, so that a lot of people will like your film, The Academy or people who are voting bodies, right. And I think they realize that those don't, those concerns don't really concern me. So it's all about telling a very honest story, a very authentic story. And a story that's not afraid to not let the audience off the hook. I think striving for consensus is not something that I tend to do. I don't make films out of fear, and certain actors respond to that.

Alex Ferrari 12:32
And so another thing about working with all of these amazing actors is I know that all of them have very different processes. So as a director, I mean, as a director, how do you handle like when you have, you know, four or five different of these actors in, in a scene? You can't just yell out direction, you got to kind of go,

Scott Copper 12:52
I've never do that I own two actors that nobody hears, but the actor, I'm actually exactly mixer has turned off all mics and nobody on set will hear the direction that I give Sam Shepard, right? Where Robert Duvall, Christian whomever it is, I think, why don't think I know you have to be very specific, with actors. Don't talk in the abstract. It's really about who is your character? What does the character want the scene? What's the subtext? And again, make them feel safe, safe and free to take big risks. And every actor comes at a scene differently. Casey Affleck and Willem Defoe couldn't be more dissimilar in terms of styles. You have to on the day balance those styles to make sure that all ideas are welcome. But that we're all trying to serve the theme of the film. And what's the subtext of a theme. And then when you cast people, Willem Defoe has made that around probably 100 films or Christian who's made 50 Evolve is made 100 I mean, it's like, and I've said this before, it's almost as though you're like a jockey at the route. Imagine wanting to be at the Kentucky Derby, you're on the best. And it's a little bit of guidance here, a little bit of guidance, they're showing the whip, you know, and then let them run rest of the work. I mean, that's the key is like not getting in their way. And helping an ice ball would always say to me, the key to being a successful director of performances, which is what I hope I am, is knowing how to help an actor when he or she is in trouble.

Alex Ferrari 14:29
Now with crazy heart you I mean, again, you very rare example of your first film being nominated for three Oscars. It doesn't happen quite very often. How did you

Scott Copper 14:42
I gotta be honest

Alex Ferrari 14:43
Yeah, I that was my question. How did you handle the print not only the pressure, the accolades the year, the greatest the ego trips, being in the center of that hurricane and then after winning, you know, the film winning a few a couple Oscars, and how the town entreated you because Hollywood's a dangerous place. And, and but you already been in town a bit as an actor. So you've seen a few things that I'm Oh yeah. So how did you deal with it man?

Scott Copper 15:13
Well, by making a film that was the complete polar opposite, which was out of the furnace, which, you know, I hope to make as an L.A giant crime film. Right, that would remind me of smaller version of The Deer Hunter, right? And you feel like, okay, well, you're definitely not going to sand off the edges. You're not going to strive for consensus, you're gonna make a film that is as hard hitting as the people experience who actually live there. Right. And fortunately, that's where Christian and I met in Braddock, Pennsylvania Mayor John Fetterman, who's now the senator from Pennsylvania. Right. And I know how tough it was to live in a place like that probably still is in Braddock. So if you're being authentic to tell him the story, that's really the key. And you don't worry about what others will say. You know, worried about what category voters will say you don't worry about what critics say because if you look at most of Stanley Kubrick's films, they were not well received when they first came out.

Alex Ferrari 16:18
All of them almost I think all of them unanimously were not well received.

Scott Copper 16:21
And time is what settles the score. Right? So often, you see movies that go on to win Oscars and receive a claim and you watch them 234 years later, if not sooner, you've and you realize that they don't really hold up right so if you're if you're playing and these actors that I work with know that you're playing for the long game. And really what what means something to me is that when I hear from people who are also filmmakers who have responded to me whether it's Bogdanovich with crazy horror, whether it was Michael Cimino calling me or William freaking after seeing out of the furnace, you know, Michael Mann, who was has been very kind to me, Mike Nichols, like all of these people that I admired, really reached out to you after seeing your films and, and continued to applaud you and continue to push.

Alex Ferrari 17:14
How do you as I mean, as a filmmaker, there's so many traps with that, because you know, when you're getting you're, you're basically the people you admire calling you telling you that you're great. And to keep going. The ego has to fall into how do you keep that in place? Because that's a problem when you have so much

Scott Copper 17:33
Yeah, of course, yes. And you have to, of course, my wife would disagree with saying that I feel like I have no ego she

Alex Ferrari 17:42
Wives do that.

Scott Copper 17:43
Yes. But ultimately, it's really about serving the story about telling the stories that that you want to tell. And you and Alex, what you try to do is, is try to keep ego out of any decisions that you make. Which is often very difficult for artists to do, whether you're a painter or whether you're physician, whether you're a filmmaker, Jeff Bridges, said to me, I don't care what happens to a movie when it comes out in terms of winning awards that the reward is, is in the journey for him. And it's the experience and the more movies that I make. That's the truth. It's when you and a group of gifted collaborators are, are all striving for the same goal. And I think that's really important. I think, also, I have tended to try to figure out how the how to tell the truth about how tragic and unfair life is without losing hope. You know, most narratives lie to the audience about how life works out. And shocking. Yes, and

Alex Ferrari 18:53
Hollywood does that. No, you're kidding me?

Scott Copper 18:57
Yes. So that's our bread and butter. It is yeah. So for me really, it's it's about, you know, working through the difficulties in my life by dressing them through art.

Alex Ferrari 19:09
Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, the one thing that's not spoken a lot about in, in the filmmaking space, especially in the film, schools, and for young filmmakers coming up, is the politics of the set. As a first time director, you know, you have collaborators who you might have chosen wrong, you know, incorrectly that you didn't align with what you want it or or try to enforce their vision on top of the director. Have you dealt with any of that? And if you have, how did you overcome it?

Scott Copper 19:37
No, frankly, I haven't. Because I didn't think so having gone to film school, actually, all six of my films have been incredibly harmonious. Now I work with the same crew largely over and over because we have a shorthand, and you know, my films are not inexpensive and every moment counts. And every minute is, you know, you can just hear the dollar sign I think it was Kubrick again who, who said that actually, prepping is much easier editing, you're much more relaxed. But when you're shooting, it's like you're in this cauldron of fire because you have to make so many decisions every day. And you're dealing with production designers, actors, cameramen, and women sound. Everything is coming together at once. So the key is, how do you hire people that see the world as you do, who will make push you to become a better filmmaker, because I didn't go to film school and all of my film school is reading as much as I can about film directors, watching their movies over and over and over with the sound off, how do they move the camera. Most importantly, when they don't move it, how they use composition and missile scene and lighting, staging, to help tell the story. And which is more and more difficult because we're living in the most impatient of ages. Because of this, right? And because we're getting instant, in social media, we're getting instant gratification constantly, and that we were no longer patient. We have to you have to really resist that when you're making a film. Because if you were to put an audience today in front of 2001 I knew what that was. Barry Lyndon The Godfather even and it never heard of these actors have seen it, people would find it painfully slow, boring. And if they were watching home, they would turn it off. Not everybody but a lot of people. And you have to resist that. You have to say okay, well, this is the story I'm telling you, you might find it to be a slow burn. But I said this before making you know, experiencing a film in a cinema is not like getting an enema. You don't want to have wanted to get over as fast as possible. luxuriate in Stanley Kubrick's world, or in Jane Campion's world, or countless other filmmakers that have inspired me for years. Right? That's the key. So. So it's really about trying to assure an ego, hire people that see the world as you do know their work incredibly well. Take meetings with them. And then you will just learn to push one another. I mean, even when you work with trusted collaborators, there will be moments on set where there is Sturm and Drang as the director, and as the writer and as the producer, you have to be able to solve those issues, you also have to be open, and realize that all ideas are welcome. And that is the key, you can't only just say it's my way, you have to very strong vision. But it's clear that there are people that you hire, who will bring ideas to make you not only a better filmmaker, that makes the film better.

Alex Ferrari 22:46
Now, how do you approach the writing process? Because your your, your, your work is so character driven? How do you how do you just deal with the writing process?

Scott Copper 22:57
Quite quite frankly, and and I work very long stretches from early in the morning, through lunch, take a break, and then get back at it because I do kind of what Coppola did, which is like this vomit draft, where you don't go back and edit. You literally write the story from page one to page 120 or however long it is without going back to edit and reading it it very often will be terrible to see if if this is a story that you would want to race out to see on Friday night. That's my litmus test. And before I became a writer, I would study Robert towns work I would study free King's work I would study the network perish is the whoever. And I would I would try to understand these are all people who write characters. How is it that they're telling the story largely through subtext. And they're telling it visually, they're telling it with spare dialogue? All these sorts of things that you just keep writing, writing is rewriting and and eventually you come to a place where we feel like you can share a screenplay with Robert Duvall, who's the first one to to read crazy art or now, the person who reads all my scripts, whether he's in them or not, is Christian Bale. Right. Christian has been making films since he's 12. He'll tell you if a story of a character is working quickly. And it's great to have and I'm very fortunate to have those kinds of trusted collaborators who read my things, and help guide me because so often, and even in the editorial process, you get very Snowblind it's snowballing and you can't quite see think things are great. But then there are other people who will come in and say this didn't quite land for me. This isn't working. This is overstated. This is understated. So all of those sorts of things. I'm just getting a text from my pal Casey Affleck right now speaking. So Alex, that's really hitman. It's about how do you use other people's ideas? Look at I mean, I can't say enough to young filmmakers read great screenplays. see not only what a writer is trying to express, but what they aren't. So much is left to the unspoken, that will make a real connection with the audience. And I tell people all the time, first time filmmakers tell the truth. write stories that are close to you that you know, and personalize everything. Because then if you do, your theme will become universal. And it will speak to most everybody because we're all suffering, right? And we all if you if you deign to make the kind of films that I do, you want to move people, or you want to challenge people, a great filmmaker who shall remain unnamed, once said to me, and this guy's one of the greats. He said, Scott, if everybody likes you film, it's likely not very good.

Alex Ferrari 25:57
Very true. Now do you outline at all

Scott Copper 26:02
If I'm adapting something, if I'm writing an original, it's funny because I use Kubrick again, because I've read everything he's ever said, Oh, me to my friend to me to all of his interviews. And he would never direct an original screenplay always has to be based on existing material, because he says you can sit down in one city and tell this is a story that I want to tell. This is what I want to spend the next five years of my life. Outlining can be really quite helpful. If there's existing, the pale blue i Very sprawling novel, more characters that I could, that I could or should explore on a two hour timeframe different if you're making a limited series. Something that's longer, more sprawling, you should certainly outline but original screenplay. It helps it helps to give you guideposts as you're writing for sure. But certainly, if you're adapting something, and it's really all about finding the essence of the novel, or nonfiction pieces, or magazine, or whatever it is you're adapting podcast. And then it helps to outline that for sure. But there's also something very freeing about not knowing where narrative is going. You have a kernel of an idea, like out of the furnace and off I went in and just wrote, and I was doing press for crazy hard. I was in Pittsburgh, drove over to Braddock, Pennsylvania, wrote very specifically for all of these locations, took images. Out of that came the narrative. So I do both. I've just just adapted something that I hope to make certainly my next film or a film after that. And I didn't outline, I'd read the novel four or five times William Goldman, but certainly once he realized he was going to read something and read it two or three times, did I like it the second time as much as the first, what are the themes? Who are the characters that I'm going to exercise, who the characters I'm going to focus on. That's, that's the piece that I just that I've just adapted with that. When you have someone who's given you a great piece of source material, like for instance, those by art in the pale blue eye, you can take that. And if the author knows and understands that a film is very different than a book, you could just use a sea and off you go. So it really is is project continue whether I outline or not. I don't do always.

Alex Ferrari 28:42
Now, as directors, there's always that day on set where we feel like the entire world's coming crashing down around you the sun's every day there is that but there's that one day that's like, oh, I don't think we're going to make it that day that you like holy cow. What was that day on any of your projects? And how did you overcome it?

Scott Copper 29:00
Well, you never have enough time. Honestly, even though you've got and I've got 55 days to shoot this Jesus, I had 24 for crazy heart. Every day by the time you're finished up, you know, there are no easy days on a film set. One of them of course is is if you have to vacate a location because it's a restaurant that you've rented or someone's house and they're ready to move back in. Or it can be because you have monsoon rains coming and that would have been in hostiles where I was shooting the sequence towards the end of the film where Rory Cocker this character before he before he meets his maker and it's pouring rain and it's I think it's probably 38 degrees. It's going to be snowing later. Rory is dressed only in a very thin shirt, but we hadn't quite gotten the scene but I could tell that he was. He was very affected by the weather and was starting to become hypothermic. I'm not a doctor, I'm supposing I can see how it was affecting him. In these monsoon rains up in the Continental Divide, you just can't control but it was giving me everything that I wanted in the scene. So you're trying to balance somebody's help with also trying to know that you have to vacate a location, vacate a location and trying to balance the scene but and I would go to Rory and say, Listen, I think we have this. But I'm also very concerned that you are experiencing something now that you shouldn't be. No, Scott, I haven't quite gotten it is what Rory would say, we're going to keep pushing. And then you're sitting behind the monitor next to the lens and you're thinking okay, man, I've got to stop him because he'll keep going until it until he falls down. Because he's that kind of actor he's so great, Rory, great actors I've worked with. So seems like that really pressure you or when the monsoon rains and rattlesnakes have come out of the ground, they're everywhere, but you're still shooting, you know, those sorts of things. So it's all about really balancing. And you know, if you're 810 1000 feet above sea level, and oxygen very difficult for people, it's always trying to balance those sort of things, or shooting the pale blue eye and and it's eight below zero. And those are long days. And you want to make certain that the crew are well taken care of. But if you're the writer, director, producer, and you're in a location, and you're focused on that, and then but you're also concerned about the crews. Well being you know, those are things that you really have to juggle as a filmmaker they certainly don't teach you in film school having gone to film school, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they don't rattlesnake. Elevation,

Alex Ferrari 31:57
I missed the rattlesnake. Bears bronze class. When I went at least it wasn't there. It wasn't in the curriculum. I went I went.

Scott Copper 32:08
Right. Maybe there should be a class on.

Alex Ferrari 32:10
I mean, if someone's listening at USC USC film school should have that exactly. Now, I've talked to so many writers that when they are when they're writing, and it happens, it's happened to me, it happens to every writer, I think, is when you're writing you, you're almost channeling, you're almost like it's something flowing through you to what point to the point where after you're done, you look at and you go, Holy crap, who wrote this, this is good,

Scott Copper 32:41
Almost every time. And quite frankly, it comes from a very deep, subconscious place. I mean, you're very conscious as you're writing it. But you're not questioning that my wife asked me that all the time when she when she reads something. She's like Jesus, where'd this come from, and you can't quite really understand it. And, and quite frankly, the more films you make, and the more experienced you become known as a film director, but as a film writer, the more difficult it gets about saying less, and not over imparting to the audience, and trying to give them enough information to keep them satisfied, but not too much information. And that's where you become more conscious about it. But generally, if you're writing, if you're in that flow, and that stream of consciousness, and it's coming from a place, don't question it, and don't stop

Alex Ferrari 33:30
So it seems like it's, you know, we could call it the other side, the ether, wherever ideas come from ethics, Spielberg talked about it. And I think Prince and Michael Jackson talked about it as well, like where ideas come from. And I think Spielberg said it in an interview where he's like, if an idea comes to me, I know that if I don't act on it, in a week or two, I'll hear that Marty got it, or someone else got it, because the idea needs to be birthed into the world. And they chose you first. But if you don't move, they'll move on to the next one.

Scott Copper 34:02
Look at those are three geniuses that you just mentioned. So I wouldn't question any of that, but I think he's probably right. And I try not to I try not to question anything, honestly, in terms of where it comes from, because when you make the kind of films that that I make you you have to understand that no two people see the same film. Right. And which is why I think it's so frankly, absurd to rank art as we do in America. What's the best, you know? Who do you Who do you think's a better painter Cy Twombly or Jackson Pollock? You're gonna have very responses, right from a number of people when you present them with that. Are those better Meyer miles or Coltrane? Right? Those were things in the fact that we that we rank are something that are a whole nother discussion. Keep out. But you can't really be concerned with any of that when you are making a film, or when you're. So these come from don't know, how are people going to receive this?

Alex Ferrari 35:13
Oh, God, no, you can't think that. No, you have to just let it come out. And, and that's where I think a lot of writers

Scott Copper 35:20
Will be generic and easily forgotten.

Alex Ferrari 35:24
One thing I've noticed with your work is, it seems that there hasn't been a drop off. Meaning that the level that you were able to set the bar, you were able to sit with Crazy Heart, you've been able to keep that film after film, on the level of the writing and the directing, because to be honest, and I know you know this as well, there are directors who pop, but then they overthink or they and then you could start seeing it in their work, their work starts to drop off, unfortunately. Do you think when you wrote crazy heart where you were basically, there was no pressure to recreate the heart? Oh, no, no, that nobody? No, no. So it was such a freeing experience that you let go? Yes. Do you? Are you able to continuously do that with your work? Or do you start to get in your own way and stop that flow sometimes from happening?

Scott Copper 36:13
Well, both only because my work explores the darker corners of the human psyche. And since crazy heart have gotten progressively darker, although pale blue eyes, certainly it's not that I mean, that's much more accessible. So you try to guard against that, only because you know that your films affect people in ways and I've been to countless screenings over the last six movies, where people have come out of my films as though they were just, you know, festivals, screenings, because they were just hit by a two by four. And you can tell that they were deeply moved or deeply angered, or upset. Whatever it is. So you're sometimes mindful of that, like, you know, and I never tried to make the same film twice, you make it music film, you make a gangster movie, a Western for our family, hard trauma with antlers. And now this. So I never tried to repeat myself, but I also never let the audience off the hook. And that is something that you sometimes have to be reminded, because look we want I mean, movies are an expensive endeavor, and their investment want their movies at least to break even. But they want to make money. You know, it's cliche as it is it is show business and not show art. So I've been lucky to make the kind of films that I make. And quite frankly, I think actors and other directors, whether they're my contemporaries, or people that I have long, long admired became a filmmaker, because of them, have embraced my work in ways that the public just isn't aware of. And that really keeps you going. Walter Hill, got an email from Walter today, telling me how much that he loved pale blue eye. And what he thinks is my same reason I bring it up because you just mentioned it, and how he's seen my career ascend. And if you know, I think people are thankful when directors really, really respect the audience, and want to give them something that's challenging and something that's different, and most importantly, something that, and I do believe this will stand the test of time.

Alex Ferrari 38:31
Let me I gotta ask you this question. Because I mean, we you and I are both of the generation that remembers all those great filmmakers. You talked about all those great movies, from the 70s in the 60s in the in the 80s. And I feel like those kinds of filmmakers and to be honest filmmakers, like yourself aren't dangered species right now. Because of what's happening in the in the business. There's, it's, it's just getting crazier and crazier. And if it wasn't for people like Netflix, you know, a pale blue eye, which is your new movie. That's not getting a theatrical release today. That's not being made today. It just wouldn't get made unless it was with a streamer who wants to do that kind of work. Because the studios, honestly, if Scorsese is having a problem getting his films made, and he has to go to netflix. We're all in trouble.

Scott Copper 39:28
So we'll make it his new film.

Alex Ferrari 39:30
Right, exactly. So what do you think about the future of where we're going? Because as a film lover, I'm seeing I'm seeing a problem, the new generation coming up. It's,

Scott Copper 39:41
I mean, Christian and I just spoke about it today. Because the pale blue eyes debut on Netflix, it's been in theaters for the last two weeks. I mean, I'm eternally grateful that Netflix have allowed this film should people want to see it in the big screen experience to debut in the top markets. All over the world, you got two weeks to see it in a theater, if you want to see that. And should you want to wait until it comes to your house, which is what most people will do to your home theater. That's how the majority of people will see my film, then that's how they're gonna see. I am eternally grateful that Netflix, Apple, Amazon are making films that the legacy studios no longer want to make, because those are the films that that the reason I became a filmmaker, and the movies that still excite me, I mean, I've been asked to do major superhero films, or the kind of films that that guarantee an audience have been offered as many times and have as of yet elected not to do them because I want to tell these stories. Stories that make me want to race out to see a film on Friday night. It's getting tougher and tougher. Because if you look at this fall, and some of my pals their films, that debuted in cinemas just no one came to see them. And these are excellent films, and made them with the highest craftsmanship in great performances. And it's a bit terrifying, and we're heading into potentially strike here. we potentially could be facing the facing, you know, economic headwinds. So all of these things make it more difficult for people to get their films made. Certainly more difficult than than it does for Scorsese. Or, or, or your those Landmaster, myself, whoever are making, you know, challenging adult dramas. But still, it's never easy. And I fear that people until we're really beyond COVID, which we certainly are not. I think an older audience won't come back. And I think ticket price is probably going to have to come down to entice people to come back to the cinemas. But I can assure you because you look around the world are such great cinema being made. And those are the films that I most respond to, quite frankly, international filmmakers who've inspired me a great deal over the last 1520 years. They're still getting their films made. Their their home, countries sometimes help subsidize them, which we don't quite have here. It is getting tougher, but then every year movies come out you think okay, great. This is why we love cinema. It's just just getting harder and harder. Alex and James Rockwell any filmmaker, you should make the film you're about to make is though it's your last.

Alex Ferrari 42:58
Yeah, and it's good. You know, a lot of times, well, first of all, I think what you said about foreign films, we're getting access to them so much easier now because of streaming services. They're just coming in, and something like parasite winning the Oscar and things like that, that would have never happened. No, 1020 years ago, we just wouldn't have happened. So that's a good, those are good signs. But the younger generation of filmmakers coming up because I teach these filmmakers I they listen to me all the time. And, and they watch the show. And it's I see them at festivals, and I see them at events and I talk to them and it's just it's so much harder now to get stuff off the ground than it was before and especially to tell the kind of challenging stories that you're telling. And I mean, any of Kubrick's films, any of them tried to release them today. Oh, any Kubrick film today release it. It's not it's not even possible. You can you imagine the Clockwork Orange, I watched the other day, just the first. The first 20 minutes of that. I'm like, you can't release that today. It's just not in today's environment. You can't release a film like that. Or a taxi driver?

Scott Copper 44:10
No. Are you kidding? Are students dispirited from from following their passions? Or do they you know, it's gonna be a tougher road to hoe?

Alex Ferrari 44:21
Well, this is the thing, man, I think that filmmakers, the younger film generation coming up, are still stuck. A lot of times in the glory days, which in many ways for our generation was the 90s, which was the independent film movement, the Sundance movement where and I've spoken to a lot of these filmmakers, you know, the Ed Burns and the Robert Rodriguez and the Tarantino is these guys that there were legendary stories of what happened in the 90s. And they're stuck into that world that like think that that's the path and I keep yelling from the top of the mountain. This is not the way anymore but you can't. I talked to Ed burns about Brothers McMullen. That movie wouldn't make it De Klerk wouldn't make it today. El Mariachi wouldn't make it today. Slacker wouldn't make it today. It's there and they think that that's the path. So then I have to kind of break that illusion a bit. And then they go, Well, what do I do? And I go you that the game is so different now. And it's so much easier to make a film. But it's so much harder to get it seen. Because when we were coming up, it was impossible to make a film cos you needed 35 You need 16 If you were lucky, and then you had to really understand technology, you really need to understand lighting now anyone can make it I had Shaun Baker on a few a couple times on my show it what did he did with tangerine with the iPhone and and cameras are so cheap and things look so good

Scott Copper 45:45
Sean's doing it the right way.

Alex Ferrari 45:47
No, Sean is amazing. And he's, you know, Red Rocket, I love red rocket. I saw I saw that in the theater shot that 16 It was great. But that but that it's I think people are starting to get disheartened a bit. And I think what we're our generation looked into the 90s, let's say for for hope. And and of course, obviously the 70s and the 80s. And the 60s and the great filmmakers and the legends. We were we kind of like if you remember when that when everybody wanted to grow up to be a rock star, right. Then, in the 90s, everybody wanted to grow up to be a director, because Quinton made it so cool. And Robert made it so cool. And it was just like everybody. Yeah, so Soderbergh everybody was so cool to be a director. Now, the younger generation didn't, they want to be content creators. They want to be YouTubers to tell their stories, and they're able to monetize they're much faster than they could with film. And then don't get me started about film distribution, which is a whole other world that I've deep into as far independent film distribution. So it's such a difficult, it's so hard, man, at certain levels. Yeah, you're gonna get the rank Googlers that come out of film school and, and make some great films and your film like crazy are these but these are anomalies. I mean, your story is an anomaly, right? So I don't know, I don't know where this conversation is going. But I just love to hear your thoughts on where you think from your point of view.

Scott Copper 47:09
Well, now you might want to crawl up in the fetal position. Jesus, Alan Toro, who write my film antlers, and yes, it was a great pal of mine said, he said, Look, you know, if COVID remind us of anything, we know that we need food. We need shelter. We need medicines, and we need stories. And we will always need films, we will always always need long form television. Whether it's content, as you mentioned, on YouTube, whether it's short films, people need stories we always have ever since when we go back to caveman, right, the corpse of corpse, in cave art in caves in France and elsewhere. So that I'm not concerned about what I am concerned about are the economic headwinds. The difficulty to entry for the marketplace? The marketplace and distribution. And my hope is that that I don't know that we're on the tail end of COVID. Hopefully, still have it now. And it's as bad as ever as intense as ever. Hopefully, once people come back, the older audience come back to cinemas, perhaps it will get easier. But I don't know that film going is the first choice for 18 to 34 year olds. I have kids, they love going to the cinema. They try to go as often as possible. But it's also because I'm a film director, I love to go to the movies. But they're also on Tik Tok all the time. And they're on Instagram and they're on YouTube. owns YouTube. Yeah. So it's it's there are many things that are challenging our time for movies. Because it's expensive and time consuming to get to the to the cinema. I hope that changes. I hope that that will shake out with COVID and the Lego studios now realize that making films, like the films that I make are more important, but it's really all about economics always has been,

Alex Ferrari 49:25
But you know, it has but I think that the studios are now run by corporations and by boards of directors. Oh, but before they were run by filmmakers, you know, you know, I mean, arguably Iger, Bob Iger is probably the only guy who understands it. Look what he's done with Disney for God's sakes. He got his back and think he's back. He understood he understands storytelling understands filmmaking. But I remember growing up I worked at a video store and we would have movies like What About Bob? You know, and these smaller films in Virginia. Right, exactly. So the smaller films with big stars Nice budgets, you know, 10 million 15 million, that there was a shot that do 10 Of those, and one would pop, and the other ones would do, okay, and then maybe two or three would bomb, but they will all work together. And there was more content, more ideas, more things. And that's why we're going back to those times to mind those ideas, because everyone's terrified of doing that kind of stuff right now, where Netflix, and Amazon and Apple aren't scared to do that, because their business model is different. That's right.

Scott Copper 50:28
And I suspect that there are a lot of different streaming platforms, which are expensive for people to have six or eight of them. I imagine that there will be fewer going forward. And but those will still be providing great content. And that's, of course, Netflix and Apple and Amazon Disney plus who are well capitalized. But then I think you'll probably also see some consolidation. And the less buyers the worse off for all of us.

Alex Ferrari 51:03
Agreed my friend agreed that's without question

Scott Copper 51:06
Companies like Sony Pictures, classics, and my good friends at Fox Searchlight who backs Yeah, a couple of my films, and they and they really are run by filmmakers. Films, year in and year out. They're great supporters of film

Alex Ferrari 51:24
A24 A24.

Scott Copper 51:26
And, and and now and of course, Netflix, Netflix as a whole division that will allow you to make Romo or Bardot or power of the dog or the pale blue eye or on and on and on. And hopefully we can continue to make that because there's so many young filmmakers who are listening to this podcast or your podcast in general, who have stories to tell and should be absolutely, there's no problem. And if you can, if you have that burning desire that says this is the only thing I can do with my life, which is ultimately what I said, then you'll find a way to succeed and tell your story.

Alex Ferrari 52:01
Amen, brother, I think that's that's the key is it's not and maybe you should, maybe you can back me up on this. It's always not about the talent. But perseverance, because there's a lot of people who are around. They're like, man, they're not the best, but they just stuck it out.

Scott Copper 52:18
They just survived. Oh, yeah, we all know examples of that for sure. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 52:24
And that's something they don't teach you in film school. It's like, I don't look, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan got cut from his high school team talent wasn't enough talent wasn't he had to go and hustle and work and build it up and keep going. And, and that's something that I try to I try to yell at from the top of the mountain here as well.

Scott Copper 52:41
Hey, if you had my pal, Adam Sandler on to talk about hustle,

Alex Ferrari 52:45
Please, I would love to have Adam on the show. Please call them up and let them know because I love the show. He should be on. I don't know why he didn't come on hustle. I love by the way, love that movie, love.

Scott Copper 52:56
He's a great, great man. And he's great in the film. And

Alex Ferrari 52:59
If he's if you want to talk about Adam, and people always ask, like, how come Adam keeps getting all these this deal on Netflix? And I always say like, the reason why is because when you're on Friday night with your wife sitting on Netflix, and you're scanning all those thumbnails and you see Adams face. You go, I know what I'm gonna get. And I'm gonna get some livers, man, and he's going to be super funny. Or when he gets into this drop dramatic stuff, which is so underrated. It's dramatic acting great. He and he just he gets it and he understands his brand. He understands what he's doing. And man, he unlike any other actor, I really, he's he's done such amazing stuff over the years. Whether you like yeah, whatever you like. I don't care if people like his films or not everyone has their opinions on stuff. But you can't deny what the man has done. And continue to do it keeps knocking it out of the park. I love to hustle. I love to hustle. So good. I love the guy. So let's talk about the pale blue I you know with Netflix, I you know, it looks beautiful dude. It's stunning. It is stunningly shot. It almost reminded it almost has a Sleepy Hollow vibe to it as far as it gets. Yeah, that's right, that that has that kind of texture? Well, for sure. It's It's stunning, man. So tell me how that that whole thing came to be and and how you were able I mean, I'm assuming you gave the script to Christian Christian said yes. And then Netflix.

Scott Copper 54:31
Yeah, he read it probably a lot. I don't know 10 or 12 years ago after we get out of the furnace. That he was too young to play Augustus landour The world where he detected with too old to play. Edgar Allan Poe, but we'd always talked about it. I mean, I've written a lot of things that I think he and I will make at some point. It's all about as we discussed early on in the podcast, all about timing availability, what we feel like making but we both We're interested in what drives someone to madness, how much pressure has to build before they explode. And violence is what causes morality and decency to erode and otherwise decent people. Right? real horrors seldom have easy explanations. And that's what we wanted to explore with the story. In terms of the aesthetic. It was a it was a brutal shoot is all my wife thinks I'm a masochist. But like I said, it was incredibly cold was bracing winds coming from the northeast, or just almost revenant style. Yeah, it was it was tough. But that was all in serving kind of this Gothic aesthetic, and, and really trying to serve as a, an Edgar Allan Poe origin story, that the two hours that take place in this film, motivate Poe to become the writer that we know and love, the writer of the McCobb, the man who bequeathed to us detective and horror fiction, the man who writes about tragedy and death and the Satanic and the occult, and where life ends and death begins, all those sorts of things that kind of course, through this narrative. And I thought that again, in trying not to do Safe Work. Christian stood on that ledge with me. And then we both took the took the leap, and we're, yeah, so once I attached Christian, my agency, creative artists took the screenplay out and, and we got a lot of bids from Legacy studios, a lot of bids from streamers. But Netflix made us an offer that we thought was too good to pass up in terms of having both a theatrical experience and streaming my first platform experience. And also, quite frankly, there there have the ranks are filled with great filmmakers who really understood the film and allowed me to make the film that you see. I hoped that people find it, you know, starting today on the on the streamer and, and allow people coming behind me to make films that are similarly difficult to make in this marketplace.

Alex Ferrari 57:21
And you've worked with Christian so many times now. I mean, you guys are you're the Scorsese to his dinero at this point, or to his DiCaprio, at this point. Christian is one of the greatest actors of his generation. There's no no question one of the greatest actors of his generation, and his physical transformations that he's done over the course of his life, which I know it's harmed his health.

Scott Copper 57:43
Oh, it has to harm himself. And

Alex Ferrari 57:46
There's nobody who's ever done anything at that again, and again, and again. And again, from the machine is to Batman. You're like, what, how? Tao? How? It's really remarkable. What is the what is the biggest lesson you've learned working with an actor like him?

Scott Copper 58:05
No detail is too small. And always striving for the truth. always striving for excellence, and realizing that we can always do better. And you need people like that to make you a better filmmaker. spoken about it publicly, Christian is my closest pal, my closest collaborator, is a brother to me. And and I'm thankful that as a director, I've had someone who has served as a muse for, for the stories that I want to tell, and people continue to come out and see our work, it won't be the end of it, our collaboration for sure. But he pushes me to be the best filmmaker I can be. And and quite frankly, I admired him more off the set than I do on music is incredibly devoted father and husband and you'll never see Christian in the public eye. You never see him on talk shows. Because he always thinks the less the public knows about him, the more easily they will believe Him as Batman, or Dick Cheney, or Augustus landour and the pale blue where he pumps his gas who he's partying with, where he went through holiday. Never see it.

Alex Ferrari 59:16
Yeah, it's almost a Daniel Day Lewis vibe to because when Daniel, he just wouldn't you don't? Nothing. You didn't do nothing about it. He just show up. 310 years later, I'll do a part now.

Scott Copper 59:27
And that way, you're able to be transported with the filmmakers to a world never even question. Hold on. Is he dating?

Alex Ferrari 59:36
You're right. You're right. He's brilliant. He's brilliant on multiple levels without question, and I have I continue to write for him. Now I have a few questions. Ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Scott Copper 59:49
Tell personal stories, tell personal stories that you know will connect in a very universal way to people in America. Are people in Iran, people in Afghanistan, people in Ukraine, all people need stories tell make personal films?

Alex Ferrari 1:00:08
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Scott Copper 1:00:14
It's difficult but patience, and to believe in yourself into Believe in your stories and to believe that you will ultimately cultivate your talent in such a way that it will be undeniable that people will want to work with you. But it all takes patience and experience.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
And the toughest question of all three of your favorite films of all time.

Scott Copper 1:00:38
I would say even though I have yet to make a documentary, I love them. I would say Barbara couples, Harlan County, USA. That's a great movie. One thing that really has influenced me the Maysles brothers salesman. It's another I would say John Pierre Melville's, Last Samurai.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:06
Nice. Very nice, very nice list. My friend, Scott brother, I appreciate you coming on the show and and sharing all your knowledge and experience with the audience, man and please continue to make movies man.

Scott Copper 1:01:15
Great questions, man. Keep it up and please people. In all seriousness, don't lose faith. We got to tell stories.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 347: Oscars®, Zombies, James Bond And Tom Hanks With Marc Forster

December 28, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Marc Forster is a German-born filmmaker and screenwriter. He is best known for directing the films Monster’s Ball (2001), Finding Neverland (2004), Stay (2005), Stranger than Fiction (2006), The Kite Runner (2007), Quantum of Solace (2008), and World War Z (2013).

His breakthrough film was Monster’s Ball (2001), in which he directed Halle Berry in her Academy Award-winning performance; the film also starred Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, and Peter Boyle. His next film, Finding Neverland (2004), was based on the life of author J.M. Barrie. The film was nominated for five Golden Globe Awards and seven Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Actor for Johnny Depp.

Forster also directed the twenty-second James Bond film, Quantum of Solace. In 2013 he directed the film adaptation of the novel World War Z, starring Brad Pitt.

His latest film is the remarkable A Man Called Otto.

Based on the # 1 New York Times bestseller “A Man Called Ove,” A Man Called Otto tells the story of Otto Anderson (Tom Hanks), a grump who no longer sees purpose in his life following the loss of his wife. Otto is ready to end it all, but his plans are interrupted when a lively young family moves in next door, and he meets his match in quick-witted Marisol.

She challenges him to see life differently, leading to an unlikely friendship that turns his world around. A heartwarming and funny story about love, loss, and life, A Man Called Otto shows that family can sometimes be found in the most unexpected places.

A Man Called Otto stars Tom Hanks (Philadelphia, Forrest Gump, Cast Away), Mariana Treviño (Club the Cuervos), Rachel Keller (Fargo) and Manuel Garcia-Rulfo (The Magnificent Seven).

The screenplay is written by Academy Award® nominee David Magee (Best Adapted Screenplay, Life of Pi, 2012; Best Adapted Screenplay, Finding Neverland, 2004) based upon the best-selling novel “A Man Called Ove” by Fredrik Backman, and the film A Man Called Ove by Hannes Holm.

The film is being produced by Fredrik Wikström Nicastro, Rita Wilson, Tom Hanks, and Gary Goetzman.

Enjoy my conversation with Marc Forster.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Marc Forster 0:00
I feel once you connect with an actor to make them feel comfortable and understand the visions you have, that's the key thing.

Alex Ferrari 0:08
This episode is brought to you by the Best Selling Book Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome to the show Marc Forster. How you doing Marc?

Marc Forster 0:22
I'm good thank you and you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 0:24
I'm very good, my friend. So my first question we're going to jump right into it is, how did you get started in the business?

Marc Forster 0:31
You know, I grew up in Switzerland, in the mountains in Davos, and you know, surrounded by just nature and not much the parents in a TV. And I always had to play outside to entertain myself versus being entertained. And, and that's sort of inspired me to become a storyteller. The first time I saw a movie in a theater. So that's what I want to do.

Alex Ferrari 0:52
Now, how did you get involved with Monster's Ball because that was a such an impactful and crazy movie.

Marc Forster 1:00
You know, I made a movie called everything put together. And that premiered at Sundance. And the writers saw that movie and time producer, so they all saw it. And they said I would be right for it. And they were trying to get the movie made for like eight years. And the first first couldn't get made. And it was you know, originally Sean Penn directing was Robert De Niro, Sean Penn and Marlon Brando. And it was too expensive. And the first thing they asked me, look, we've been waiting to get this chance for all this time, we would make the movie with you. But can I make it for $3 million. And I made the Sundance movie for 50,000. I said $3 million. I couldn't do that. So that's how I started.

Alex Ferrari 1:40
So when you're when you were directing Haley and Billy Bob in that film, like, Did you just see what was going on with Haley's performance at that point, like, because she was amazing.

Marc Forster 1:51
You know, I didn't predict that she would win an Oscar at the time of shooting, but I definitely saw it when I saw performances, she was extremely powerful, extremely raw and vulnerable. And, and that's what we discussed, and we wanted to go for and that it felt real. And, you know, because how they, you know, is such a, you know, glamorous and beautiful human to really make it believable, the part I felt she worked extra hard.

Alex Ferrari 2:18
How did what advice do you have for directors who want to pull those kinds of raw and, you know, to those kinds of emotions out of an actor, what did you do to make her feel comfortable enough to be that vulnerable on screen.

Marc Forster 2:32
And, you know, ultimately, you you, you know, you discuss the part in depth in your vision and depths, and you communicate your vision. And I feel once you connect with an actor to make them feel comfortable and understand the visions you have, that's the key thing. I mean, for the most vulnerable scene between the intimate scene between Billy Bob and her, you know, there was a closed set, of course, and, and closed everything that they felt totally protected and safe.

Alex Ferrari 3:01
No, now you you made the jump from indie to slightly larger budgets, just slightly, from, from Monsters Ball to the James Bond, how did you handle psychologically the jump from 50,000 to 3 million to a couple 100 million?

Marc Forster 3:17
I mean, that there were a couple of movies between Yes, there was. So so, you know, I had like, I think finance they like for four or five movies in between. So I did the budgets increasingly much bigger. And you know, the one Catona was the one before the Bond movie, but still, it was only like the $25 million range. And it's, it's like, same thing if you have like a, you know, a small sort of boutique shop, or a boutique, you know, custom made shoe to store and then suddenly become CEO of Macy's or something. And, and it's a different thing, you suddenly have so many more people so many more questions. You're shooting seven, seven countries, seven countries all over the world, you know, this $20 million budget and, and history of a franchise that one of the most or the most successful franchise in history, and you suddenly it's suddenly when you start reflecting our thinking, I hope I am not gonna, you know, this is not an awkward guy that that ship is not gonna sink because otherwise my career is over.

Alex Ferrari 4:25
Right, exactly. So what does that feel like being on the set for the first day of shooting Quantum of Solace, and you just sit there like, okay, there's a million people running around trying to get this thing going, how did that feel being on the set on a Bond film such a legendary franchise?

Marc Forster 4:41
You know, to begin with, we started on purpose, the movie very intimate, was not some of the big big action sequences and big sets, so that it felt very familiar to me. I knew the territory. I knew how to do those, those scenes and and from that we started growing, but you know it what feels Like before, you're always under the radar, nobody really cares. And then suddenly a Bond movie and suddenly you have the world press attention on you. And that that is actually the biggest pressure and that I didn't know. So you don't you don't study don't think about that, that suddenly, everyone, and everyone will write about you. And before that nobody will hear.

Alex Ferrari 5:23
How did you deal with that psychologically? And how did that affect if it affected at all your creativity, or your process?

Marc Forster 5:28
I mean, the the process of movie was a tricky one, because there was a writer strike going on, at that time in 2008. So we had a sort of unfinished script, and then the strike was October to February. So it was very tricky. It was often just me, Craig and me in the trade are trying to figure out what we're going to do next. So so that was the even more pressure, I think, if it would have been a completed script that everybody said, this is fantastic. Let's just go and shoot it, it definitely deflates some of the pressure. But if you have something that's not completed, and you're suddenly stuck in that position, and you have a release date, in place, only five weeks to cut the movie. It's, it's kind of intense.

Alex Ferrari 6:09
Now in I mean, obviously, you also worked on World War Z, which is another small, independent budget. How did you deal with the stress of heading up such big productions? I mean, as a director, there's just so many people in so many departments, and you still trying to be creative and still be intimate with your actors? How do you handle that stress?

Marc Forster 6:29
Um, you know, I'm like, it's interesting. I like it was the it's for the mob Israel sequence when the zombies came over the wall. Yeah. Remember that sequence? Of course. So when I drove in the morning, I had a driver drive me to set in multiway, shelter and alter, and we came to set and we pulled up. And he looked at 2000 extras and helicopters in the air and buses and vans going on Friday night, but a driver literally had an anxiety attack, just looking at it.

Alex Ferrari 7:01
Not helpful.

Marc Forster 7:03
And I was like, whoa, what, what are you doing today? So you just go out and you just have to focus and you can't, you have to plan out all the chatter. Yeah. And I think that's one of the key things for directing in general. You know, you have so many voices always in general, from the financier, studio, actors, producers, whatever they do, we stick to your vision, you when you hear chatter, it takes some some stuff you like, but ultimately, you have to stick to your vision. And I think it's part of the art in that to be able to stay calm and blend it out.

Alex Ferrari 7:35
Now, as directors, you know, there's always that day that you feel like the entire world's coming crashing down around you. I'm assuming you have that every day. But um, there's more than there's that one day on any production, that you don't know how you're gonna get through. So what was that day on any of your productions? And how did you overcome it?

Marc Forster 7:51
I think, you know, I would say when we're shooting in western China, the Katonah our line producer forgot two hours before digital it was still wishes to do film. And Atlantis forgot to order film. So so we sort and left you know, short ends. So basically, where we're shooting these scenes, there was a six minute dialogue scene and only have like two minutes of film. So I couldn't tell the actor you can only piecemeal this and she was doing as a piece of so the actors like actors are playing six minutes of roles and acting the harder but only two minutes of filming it. So at the end, I knew there was no film and then I peed I basically next time I'd just shoot the middle and then the end. But sometimes the actress didn't ascend Why do you do so many takes and the second we got it then it was so great. And and but they weren't aware that was super stressful is thinking of these great performances, but you don't have to go on film. And just telling them oh, you know, we don't have a film in the camera right now. Which is like out wasn't, wasn't the right thing to do.

Alex Ferrari 8:56
Now on your new film, a man called Otto which by the way I saw and absolutely loved this such a beautiful film. And Tom Hanks is this newcomer Tom Hanks is fantastic. By the way,

Marc Forster 9:07
A real discovery.

Alex Ferrari 9:09
A real discovery without question. How did you get involved with this project? And also like, it seems like you're going back to your roots a little bit. It's a very intimate film, very small in scope comparatively to the other big things you've done over the over your career.

Marc Forster 9:24
Yeah, you know, I wrote the book, and I was so touched and moved. And I laughed, and I cried, and then I saw that was a Swedish version of the film, which I saw was good, too. So this movie, we have to become a very conversion out of this because it's so you know, it's so funny, but it's also so touching and dark. And it's like both but ultimately, it's a life affirming film. And what I loved about it brings the neighborhood back together. I think we are also divided these days. And I think that still at the end this is you know this I always feel like it's one country where we all need to work together. And even though we have different point of views, and there are so many different characters on that street, which is so sweet, and I like the new neighbor, the Mexican family that moves in across the street, who she comes over and tries to use English food. And I think food is one of those great things that we can literally all share, which, which definitely wants was someone's heart, but she's so persistent, that neighbor that her name is Mariana Trevino, marriage plays Mosel that autos character, who Tom Hanks plays, just that ultimately can't keep us opens up. He can't, he can't take it anymore.

Alex Ferrari 10:40
Do you? Do you still get nervous when you're directing people like Tom Hanks, like, on the first day on set? You're like, Tom Hanks is here.

Marc Forster 10:49
I mean, no key is I love that. And I think he's one of the greatest stars ever. He's definitely, you know, greatest town that we work with. I mean, it's so extraordinary. You know, after 40 years, he still loves what he does, and, and is a big movie star. And he comes in the morning and he sits on set and he never leaves. He's like, in like a meditation. And, you know, usually stars of that caliber, you take to take that out to trainer, he never he stays there all day long as a crew, he just sits there with the crew, and then you realize, change, life doesn't leave. And it's just this concentration and this sort of just being there. It's pretty, pretty special.

Alex Ferrari 11:29
How do you approach the different? How do you approach different acting styles? And you're directing? Because, you know, Tom Hanks is very different than a Halle Berry. That is different than a Brad Pitt? Like how do you adjust multiple characters in the same scene?

Marc Forster 11:43
Yeah, it's basically you, you have to, like find a way to get to connect and see what what the actor needs or not, and how open they are, and how willing you know, some of you know how, how willing they are to collaborate. And I was pretty lucky throughout my career that I always worked with actors who were very open. And we had, I never had, like, you know, the sort of nightmare situation, and that they were very focused and prepared and, and on time, so I never dealt with, with with the, with the Divas of the show business, which I'm, I'm very, very blessed. But at the same time, you just see what what they need, and really try to feel them out. Because sometimes it's better to say nothing than too much said, because sometimes the actor needs that space, and they find it and you as a director, maybe just have to say maybe we can just try a different prop, you know, try this or that it's less than giving you a demo direction is let's try something a different direction. So so that's, you know, how it how it really from person to person difference?

Alex Ferrari 12:47
And how did you balance the darkness of the story with the humor, because you did it so masterfully because you? I mean, you definitely touch upon very, very dark themes in this in this movie, but yet you're laughing and crying and dealing with those things. It's a very fine balancing act you did.

Marc Forster 13:05
Yeah, it's it's a lot of it is in editing because you know, we obviously shot a little bit more here and there. But it's it's finding this balance also, between the flashbacks and present day that you go, you don't stay too much in the flashbacks to come back that emotion. So stay connected with Tom and in the present day. And also in the, in the flashbacks. Ultimately, they just give enough information that creates sort of a mystery and enough for you to wanting to keep watching. And it's juxtaposing sometimes the dark was the humor strangely direct, you know, when places the hinge breaks, and he's on the floor, and he lands right next to the paper wisdom was the you know, yes to $5. And then he says, Let me get that takes you right back into the human.

Alex Ferrari 13:51
Right. It's just like, like, what is he's just did that. And he's like, no, like, it's a good, good. So the deal I gotta keep so beautiful. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions, ask all my guests Marc, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Marc Forster 14:08
I mean, ultimately, I think that, you know, today, you know, you can make your film on your phone. Basically, what it really comes down to is a great story. And I think also, when you find your story, the more personal connection you have with that, the better. It's either, you know, if you don't have the funds, I would recommend to do a short and then have the feature script ready. So you shoot the short and then say, look, there's my short and this feature is going to be and that's how you know how to raise money and, and figure it out and get actors and people that would love the short that's that's take our bet on this guy, or to make a feature for if you can raise the money. But no matter what it all comes down to the script, that the script is really strong and be free. I think it's important to keep it to other people to read the script to have them have a look, get feedback and just keep working. on that, but I think the stronger the script is better. And another thing is, once you make a movie, and you have a movie that works, let's say at Sundance or any of the festivals and someone buys it, that you have a second script ready, because you don't want to too much time say, Oh, I have nothing, I have to write another script or find something for next year or two, to get that going. But at that time, we live in such a fast society that that might have been too late. So I think to have a second project ready is important as well.

Alex Ferrari 15:29
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Marc Forster 15:37
I think, you know, patience is definitely something you always have to learn, like, even sitting in traffic and staying home. You know, it's like impatience with these people was, you know, as your kids was everything it's like, just to be patient. I think it's really a hard one.

Alex Ferrari 15:56
Um, what did you learn from one of your greatest failures?

Marc Forster 16:01
Yeah, you know, they always say Silicon Valley is built on failures. And seeing failures are truly key for an artist for anyone, because you learn from them. For instance, after Finding Neverland, I made a film called stay. That wasn't Ryan, Ryan Gosling only walks great task where you McGregor great cars. And, and it the critics didn't love it, the artisan love it as part of a little bit of a following throughout the years. But when ultimately, when I made that movie, I think, why doesn't this print that movie work? And then I and out of that movie came straight from fiction, which also is sort of absurd and comedic. But then we worked and I was able to make that sort of absurdness that movie emotional. And it wasn't able to do that in state, even though visually is cool and compelling. But it ultimately didn't connect with people emotionally. And, and strain. Friction that so.

Alex Ferrari 17:05
So then, in the hardest question of all three of your favorite films of all time?

Marc Forster 17:10
Three of my favorite films. Well, I mean, it's a tricky one. You know, like, I love a lot of the dead directors. You know, I love I think in my Birdman, Swedish director, I would say like wild strawberries of his own, we really enjoy it. I, you know, I mean, there's three. There's a tough one,

Alex Ferrari 17:33
Three today. I know it changes tomorrow. So it will be on your tombstone. Don't worry.

Marc Forster 17:38
That, you know, I like you know, I always loved the Marx Brothers duck soup.

Alex Ferrari 17:46
It's so good. It's still, it still holds today.

Marc Forster 17:50
Yes. And I think Howard harps bringing a baby. It's one of my favorites. Because I just love how fast that dialogue goes, and how she performs that. And that's also one of my favorite films.

Alex Ferrari 18:04
And where can people watch A Man Called Otto.

Marc Forster 18:08
Hopefully, they all will watch it in the theaters. Because it's a movie that really, you should experience in a theater. And it's one of those movies, you know, people seem to come and come out for it. And it's something you want to expense together. You laugh and you cry. And you don't want that alone alone at home for TV. So right now, it's still theaters for next couple of weeks. So please go and support it.

Alex Ferrari 18:29
And very last question. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Yeah, as a filmmaker, we grew up as filmmakers, we grew up loving movies at the theater. But that seems to be it becoming more and more of an endangered species unless there's certain kinds of films. What do you what are your What are your hopes for the future, my friend because it's tougher and tougher to get people at the theater nowadays.

Marc Forster 18:51
You know, Man Called Otto was the kind of movie Hollywood used to make. Yeah. And they don't make very much anymore. And I ran into a few people answered, really, they said, we have hope again, because the main hook auto seems like people came out to see it. And we didn't think those kinds of movies would stop in a theater. And I'm so glad they came and supported the movie. And I hope you know that people keep coming out for movies like that, because that will keep those movies alive because the financier is obviously in the studio's will not pay for a movie when no one shows up. And they very quickly have the algorithms you know that so many people don't. The decisions today are not being made anymore by the gods by like the old studio heads or people it's mostly made by algorithms and marketing. So can I market a movie with who is more can we sell it? They run these numbers and that's that's how it gets done mostly.

Alex Ferrari 19:45
Marc it's a pleasure talking to you my friend. Please keep up the fight the good fight, my friend, keep making the films you're making. I really appreciate it.

Marc Forster 19:52
Thank you so much, Alex. Have a good day! Take care!

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 346: Directing The #1 Christmas Film On Netflix With Janeen And Michael Damian

December 21, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Michael Damian is an award-winning actor, singer, director, writer, and producer. He first gained recognition for his 18-year run in the role of rock star Danny Romalotti on the #1-rated daytime television drama, THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS. On the stage front, Damian starred as “Joseph” in the Broadway production of the Andrew Lloyd Webber/Tim Rice musical JOSEPH AND THE AMAZING TECHNICOLOR DREAMCOAT, which broke box office records in both Los Angeles and on Broadway and earned Damian a Grammy nomination. In addition to his Broadway career, Damian has released five albums and has had eight Top 40 hits, including the smash single “Rock On,” which shot up the Billboard music charts landing at #1 and garnering Damian two gold records.

Damian won the BMI Song-writing Award for his hit single, “Was It Nothing at All,” and has also written and produced songs for the soundtracks of A PRINCESS FOR CHRISTMAS, FLICKA 2, FLICKA: COUNTRY PRIDE, MARLEY & ME: THE PUPPY YEARS and SWEETER SIDE OF LIFE. Damian has also enjoyed a prolific career behind the camera and has co-written/directed/produced 15 films and television movies.

He is a filmmaking partner with his wife Janeen Damian and most recently co-wrote, directed and produced Hallmark’s #1 movie of the year for 2020, CHRISTMAS WALTZ. Some of his other recent credits include the feature film HIGH STRUNG FREE DANCE and its predecessor, HIGH STRUNG, Lionsgate’s holiday romantic comedy, A PRINCESS FOR CHRISTMAS, which starred Sir Roger Moore and Sam Heughan (Outlander) and launched Hallmark’s smash hit Princess Christmas franchise.

Janeen Damian is an American writer, director, and producer of film and television. Together with her husband, Michael Damian she has made 15 feature films and TV movies. This year she co-wrote and produced the #1 add-supported cable movie of the year for 2020, CHRISTMAS WALTZ. She also co-wrote and produced the award- winning feature films HIGH STRUNG and HIGH STRUNG FREE DANCE which were released theatrically worldwide and distributed by Sony and Disney. Ms. Damian also co-wrote and produced A PRINCESS FOR CHRISTMAS starring Sam Heughan and Sir Roger Moore and distributed by Lionsgate and received Hallmark’s highest ratings for the year launching their original Christmas Princess franchise. The Damians went on to co-write A ROYAL CHRISTMAS and A CROWN FOR CHRISTMAS.

All three films air annually on Hallmark’s power rotation with continued high ratings. Some of Ms. Damian’s other Filmmaking credits include 20th Century Fox’s MARLEY & ME THE PUPPY YEARS and the popular reboot of the Flicka franchise, FLICKA 2 and FLICKA COUNTRY PRIDE starring Clint Black and MOONDANCE ALEXANDER, which starred Don Johnson and garnered Ms. Damian best screenplay honors at L.A. Femme Film Festival.

She also co-wrote and produced THE SWEETER SIDE OF LIFE, starring Katherine Morris and James Best. LOVE BY DESIGN starring Jane Seymour and David Oakes, and the award-winning independent feature film HOT TAMALE starring Jason Priestly and Randy Spelling. She co-directed the TV Pilot RED EYE for France’s #1 television broadcaster, TF1. She also co-directed the award-winning film FINDERS KEEPERS starring James Best.

The Damians went on to co-write A CROWN FOR CHRISTMAS and A ROYAL CHRISTMAS. Damian also directed three films for 20th Century Fox: FLICKA 2, MARLEY & ME: THE PUPPY YEARS (which he also wrote), and FLICKA: COUNTRY PRIDE starring Clint Black. He directed, wrote, and produced the feature film MOONDANCE ALEXANDER, which was also released by 20th Century Fox, and romantic comedies SWEETER SIDE OF LIFE and LOVE BY DESIGN. Damian also co-wrote, directed, and produced the indie crime comedy HOT TAMALE and co-wrote and co-directed the television pilot Red Eye for France’s TF1 network, which he also starred in.

Falling for Christmas is about a young, newly engaged heiress who has a skiing accident the days before Christmas. After she is diagnosed with amnesia, she finds herself in the care of the handsome cabin owner and his daughter.

Enjoy my conversation with Janeen and Michael Damian.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Janeen Damian 0:00
I think that it starts with the fact that we have very similar artistic tastes and tendencies. And so our vision tends to be a cohesive idea. And we don't really argue a lot about stuff because we, we tend to like the same things. And we, we tend to want and a lot, and especially because we write, you know, most of us have at least rewrite and polish everything we do. We're so close to it, we've already worked through it. So

Michael Damian 0:32
We finished a lot of thoughts in writing, like, we'll be writing and she'll start a sentence. And then I'll just say it just comes out and finishing and that she's perfect. And then I ended and then she does the other character. And then we start to have a dialogue and we start acting out the scenes right there in the office. And so it's

Janeen Damian 0:48
Between the script and then pre production, we're mostly we'd like to we're really specific about everything that we want to put on screen. So by the time that we finally get there, I think that we have a pretty good a pretty good idea and we don't really have a lot to fight about except for fight for something together.

Alex Ferrari 1:08
This episode is brought to you by the best selling book, Rise of the Filmtrepreneur how to turn your independent film into a money making business. Learn more at filmbizbook.com. I'd like to welcome the show to Janeen and Michael Damian, How're you guys doing?

Janeen Damian 1:23
Hi!

Michael Damian 1:25
Alex hi!

Janeen Damian 1:25
So nice to be here. Thank you for having us.

Alex Ferrari 1:28
Oh, thank you for coming on the show. This is like a Christmas special episode because I haven't had a like a Christmas heavy filmmaking, you know, partnership on before. I mean, looking at your filmography. You guys are fairly obsessed.

Michael Damian 1:44
She has some decorations here. I just realized we don't have any decorations.

Janeen Damian 1:50
Heavy weights before that. Yeah,

Michael Damian 1:51
Yeah, we're honored we'll take it.

Alex Ferrari 1:55
Before we get started, I have to ask you one question. What was it like working on the set of Captain EO?

Janeen Damian 2:02
Oh, that was a career highlight, I have to say,

Alex Ferrari 2:06
For everybody for everybody listening. Captain EO was a short film, directed by Francis Ford Coppola produced by George Lucas starring Michael Jackson in 1983, something like that he 45. In that world, when Michael Jackson was basically at the they just made a they made an amusement park ride around Michael Jackson at that point. That's how big he was. And it was, I remember seeing it at Epcot. And many times and I've watched it online ever since. But I've never spoke with anybody was on set. What was that like?

Janeen Damian 2:40
It was it was phenomenal. You know, the production design was by the production designer who did Blade Runner so. So there was all that steam and all this crazy smoking. And it was really loud, actually. And Michael had to speak with me to everybody with his with a microphone on there. And when we first we actually hadn't rehearsed with Michael, we rehearse without him. And then he came out on set. And the very first take, you know, you got Francis Ford Coppola yelling action. You've got George Lucas, who's created this 3d camera for this movie and bleachers, for guests like Elizabeth Taylor, Nick Cage. And you know, it was just this celebrity bleacher over there. And I was in the bleach and Michael was in the waiter, I got to invite Michael because Michael is a celebrity too. So that was there watching it. And they and so when he yelled action, Michael Jackson goes. And it was rainbows flew out of him. And it blew all our hair back. And we all messed up the choreography, the first take, and they had to redo it. But it was really amazing. It was an amazing experience. So that's one of those special ones.

Alex Ferrari 3:49
I mean, I think it's such an in the George Lucas Coppola and Michael Jackson all of like, with a short film with an insane budget that never would have had happened any other way other than if it was an amusement park ride. Like,

Janeen Damian 4:06
I mean, Angelica Houston was was the was the Wicked Witch as well.

Alex Ferrari 4:10
I forgot. She just did such a great job. I can't recognize her. But she was there.

Janeen Damian 4:15
She was terrifying and fabulous.

Michael Damian 4:17
I told him about the music wasn't loud enough when they first started. And Michael Jackson couldn't feel the music, the rhythm and so he quietly

Janeen Damian 4:28
So he gets it gets on the microphone and he says, you know, I'm sorry. I can't feel I'm not gonna try to him. Anyway, he says, I'm sorry, I can't feel the rhythm of the music and until I can, I can't work so thank you very much. And then he and Macaulay Culkin whom you keep brought with him left. And we all stood there said okay, what's happening? And so that's when we're going to take a break. And while we're waiting, they bring in these ginormous stacks. Have martial speakers that go from all the way to the to the ceiling. I go to the soundstage. And that and then the music was so loud that, you know, we came back in and Michael was happy. Everybody's happy. We're shooting and then we get a visit from next door and they were shooting Matthew Broderick and Ally Sheedy in WarGames, WarGames is that? Yeah, I'm working. And they said, Well, we hear you were over here, so we can't work now. And so we had to stagger our shooting between work and

Michael Damian 5:32
It was either war games, or I think it was more games or

Alex Ferrari 5:35
No it was war games with John John Batum directed that one. Yeah.

Janeen Damian 5:38
Yeah. So that so that was kind of that was, I don't even know how they work that out. But they worked it out to where we actually rotated, who was going to shoot when awesome. So that's insane. It's a great story, though. And it was really, it was intense and amazing. And we had a phenomenal photographer. So

Alex Ferrari 5:59
How long did you guys shoot for, by the way,

Janeen Damian 6:03
Month that we were I mean, it was also it was we had rehearsals as well, and then they shut up shot a bunch of stuff without us without the dancer. So that was that was a big printer. We were on that show for I was on it for a month, but I don't actually know

Alex Ferrari 6:19
What I had. When I saw that on your filmography. I had to ask you, so thank you for indulging me. I appreciate that. Yeah, how did that how did you guys meet and start collaborating working together as a direct producers?

Michael Damian 6:32
Oh, how did we meet? Well, we met on an airplane. And I thought that Jane's dad was her boyfriend because I didn't know at the time and I later found out it was her dad and it was awesome. And I was like, Oh great, because it was one of my favorite actors James best Roscoe from the Dukes of Hazzard. So I got himself a young girlfriend. But I want to make her mind. Jessie's Girl Roscoe is the girl now. And we met at Utah going to the Osmonds, Children's Miracle Network. telefone. And that's where we first met. And then we started writing together. Janine was dancing. You know, she was on the show solid gold she was dancing with, as you know, Michael Jackson, Prince, George Michael, Elton John. Dinah Ross, Lionel Richie, the list goes on and on. And on a mile long. It said I was doing young and the restless and my music career. Rob, you know, tours and Broadway and all that. And we just started. We started writing together. We started with a script as short stories in New York. Yeah, started there. And

Janeen Damian 7:40
Well, Michael started he wanted to, he wanted to try the other side of camera. So he actually was the impetus to us trying to write together actually he was writing and he said, Well, we can write I said, Well, we can't write. We're not writers.

Michael Damian 7:54
Well, Janine really helped me a lot. You are you're a

Janeen Damian 7:58
Guy that he doesn't take No, he doesn't put limits on himself. And so it was really amazing the way we've made that career pivot together, but it started small and then just kept going. And we

Alex Ferrari 8:13
Mike, if I may. Correct. Rosco P Coltrane. If you if you just go be

Michael Damian 8:17
Coltrane. Yeah, you got to put the gold

Alex Ferrari 8:23
Trade back in the day. Oh my god, solid gold. I remember watching that growing up, Mike. That's it. I'm going back for Michael Jackson.

Michael Damian 8:30
Roscoe was Quentin Tarantino who was engineerings dad's acting school. And he was one of the students.

Alex Ferrari 8:36
Also, he's he was the one that was teaching Quinton, How to Act back in the day when he was trying to be an actor,

Michael Damian 8:42
Urging them to write their scripts. And he brought scripts in from Reservoir Dogs and Janine would rehearse the scenes with him. Because, you know, she was just an actor. Yeah. And she was always she was very kind to everyone. And she was rehearsing dialogue. And the scenes are like, it's kind of weird that all these characters with bizarre names and Mr. What

Janeen Damian 9:00
Were the listeners think Mr. Blonde? Yeah, Mr. Payne? Yeah,

Michael Damian 9:04
She was just kind of wild, you know, but he's really, you know, passionate about, you know, quit acting.

Alex Ferrari 9:10
I've never heard this guy. Did he ever do anything ever come out of him? Did he ever do anything else? Yeah. Never heard

Michael Damian 9:21
About the Oscars all the time.

Alex Ferrari 9:23
Anytime you write something, you just see him at the Oscars.

Michael Damian 9:26
Oh, he's amazing. I love Quinton. So those are all really fun. These are all the movie experiences, you know that we grew up in our background. You know what you mean when I say dance? It's really important because she worked with Barry Levinson. She worked with a lot of well there so the list goes on and on. Some great people and I got a chance to work with Gary Marshall and a lot of faculty directors and so you know, this was our background we were take we were like sponges, not really knowing, not realizing effort. time, this will be transferred to the other side of the camera. We were just taking it all in, as performers, and, and you know, great experiences and always listening. And you know, I had a great opportunity working with Angela Webber for two years when I did Joseph on Broadway. And that was an amazing experience. So we got, we got all these, you know, these amazing mentors. And that's really kind of that's why it started.

Alex Ferrari 10:23
So I mean, you it was pretty much osmosis at this point. You're just kind of absorbing it all just being on set. Yeah. For Masters. I mean, you're talking about legends. Yeah, yes,

Janeen Damian 10:33
Exactly. It's really inspiring and a little intimidating, but at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 10:39
I mean, I can only imagine being on set and just watching these these masters work, and then just not knowing that this will ever do anything else for you, other than like, oh, you know, it's nice that I worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber and, and parva joven

Michael Damian 10:54
Fans, and really, it was great. And it's really great to you know, we ran into Paul a couple times. And it was their home and, and it was really wonderful to see how we reacted when he saw you Jeanine, it was it was what do you say?

Janeen Damian 11:09
He was really nice to me. Yeah. So that was a that was a really fun experience working with him because he's kind of a little bit of a different personality than what I had worked with before.

Michael Damian 11:19
They worked on Basic, Basic Instinct.

Alex Ferrari 11:21
And I saw that too. I was asked about you worked on basic is, you know, so funny. I have a funny Paul story. Paul Verhoeven story. I reached out to his people a year or a year or two ago. I'm like, Hey, would you like to come to? I'm a huge fan, Paul, you know, would you like to come on the show? And he goes, Paul, is going to respectfully decline, actually, I'm putting the respectfully and because he thinks podcasts are absolute shite. And that is perfect. Because that's Paul Verhoeven. He's,

Janeen Damian 11:54
He doesn't, that's for sure. You know, he's just honest.

Alex Ferrari 11:57
Oh, he's so honest. But he'd made some of the greatest movies. I mean, just whatever Mr. Verhoeven, whatever you like, but I just thought that was such a wonderful way, if I make so much sense coming from him, it just like, because I've known, like, I've heard stories about him, and just seeing his interviews, he's just a, he's an intense dude. But that's how he made his movies back, back in the day, so they're great. Now, all those years that you guys have been in the business, kind of believe that it wasn't all happy go lucky puppy dog tails and unicorns, the entire ride, right? I'm assuming as,

Janeen Damian 12:31
As actors and performer as

Alex Ferrari 12:34
Well as acting performers, on one side of the camera is one thing, and you guys get just the nose, the amount of rejection that you get, as an actor, I'm assuming that prepped you for the moment, you said, hey, I want to be a filmmaker. And people are like, yeah, that's nice. Pretty much, right?

Janeen Damian 12:55
That's the biggest level you get, actually, because I think that I think that today, they're much more open to people crossing over. And but at that time, you didn't you I mean, you get a film, or you did TV, or you or you did Broadway. And, and Michael, is he's just, he, he, the other day was saying to me, he's like, I'm just better at denial than you are. You know,

Michael Damian 13:24
I cross the streams, like, it goes both ways. It's like, you know, when when I was doing the music, that, well, you can't act and do music. And I just didn't understand why I couldn't do that. And then it was about, well, you can't do this and then do Broadway. That's just not how it works. And so all these kinds of things, you know,

Janeen Damian 13:42
You started actors weren't really directing so much. And now I have to say that we've really evolved and as, as in the entertainment community, and, and I think the streaming services have helped also to sort of to make it an easier flow to move from one, you know, one side of the cameras or the other. But you're right, that was a really big no, as a matter of fact, we actually had to go to France before somebody would let Michael direct something because he was the most popular in France than anywhere else in the world at the time. And we thought what was my accent? Can we go where you have the most heat? And that was France? Yeah.

Michael Damian 14:19
And we developed a pilot. With TF one. It took quite a while because everything had to be written in English, translate translated back into French, and then back into English again. And we had to do to two languages. And she looked into languages. And it was a it was an adventure, but it was a great experience. And that really got the ball rolling. Yeah, that was actually there. It was off and running.

Alex Ferrari 14:44
Well, Mike, I mean, I completely understand because I can't walk the streets in Japan. I mean, I'm just saying I'm joking. I was gonna say I've seen you before. And I saw you everywhere is funny is funny. I was doing The the the alcohol ads, the whiskey ads just like just like Bill Murray.

Janeen Damian 15:07
John Travolta Can't you hide?

Alex Ferrari 15:09
Did you did you do you must have in the same amount of stories I mean things you could say on air and things you could say off air.

Michael Damian 15:17
He was riding horses in commercials. Nice knife wheeling.

Janeen Damian 15:22
I mean, no, but the country high commercial was was back when celebrities were doing Japanese commercials when you didn't do television commercials in America back then. Yeah, back then.

Alex Ferrari 15:33
You know now for me it was and there was no YouTube or there was no internet. So it stayed in Japan.

Janeen Damian 15:38
Exactly. Nobody knew that they were doing them. Yeah.

Michael Damian 15:41
Except you're giving away John Travolta secrets now.

Alex Ferrari 15:45
Trust me this. He's fine. He's done. All right. I think I think the cats out of the bag on that one. That's all right. I remember when doing some like commercials over because in Japan, he was huge after all, you know, Pulp Fiction, all that stuff. And he would do commercials over there too. And I've seen some of them. It's just like, the weird is to have weird commercials. I read just When was your was,

Janeen Damian 16:13
It was weird. It was at the Hilton estate in the pool. And we had, um, for some reason, they put bunny tails on us, and 50 swimsuits and beach balls. And John was doing well, we were riding rockets. And this was on a soundstage. We did a couple with him and they put these crazy wigs and they could only bottom fake eyelashes. Honestly, it was really you know, and they were like fashion.

Alex Ferrari 16:39
Bats. That's a very polite way of saying it's weird.

Michael Damian 16:44
To the director, they said, put this on and you said

Alex Ferrari 16:47
So so once you got once you got that first production off in France, which is faster, because I've heard that from so many actors that they go overseas, because they can't, they won't get a shot here. But overseas, they're much more open. Even back then to actors are like, oh, yeah, he's a big star here because we weren't watching him and you know, all that kind of stuff. After you got done with that. Did that open the door here for some projects?

Janeen Damian 17:11
Well, no, because then we're back in America, and then the nose kept coming. But you just have to keep pushing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 17:16
Just so so let me ask you this, then how did you guys keep moving? I always love asking that question. How do you guys keep moving forward, when you keep constantly getting nose and nose and nose? And I remember that time I remember, you know, I was I was young coming up in the 90s as a director, and I remember everyone was you have to be in a box. You couldn't move back and forth between things. You know, like I was I came up in the commercial world and like if I happen to do a Spanish language, commercial, my agent would tell me, you're done. You have to then you can't do general market. I'm like, What? What? Like, oh, we can't you didn't get the job. Why? Because you never had you never shot anything with any dialogue in it. I'm like, a camera just speak. I could I don't it didn't. It didn't make any sense to me. Like you have to like, everyone's so boxy and everything. So how did you during that time?

Janeen Damian 18:04
Well, actually, in the movie, well,

Michael Damian 18:06
Actually, let's back up just a little bit. If you don't mind. We, we did a short film. And this was really great. We put together a short film, yes, I'm going to show and Janine produced it. And and I directed and we wrote it but what was great about it was that Janine did all the producing and the line producing so she literally had to learn on the fly hire everybody ensure the film every single grip trucks this I mean, she she really it was like a super Master's quick class on on, you know how to produce and, you know, run a budget. And and I was, you know, doing the same thing, and we were working together. And we picked a lot of people's brains. I was over burns and Sawyer seeing them there every day after young in the restless. Yeah, we leave to go to the rest of the time, do my shoot my scenes. That was his, that was his school, and I go over there and I would, I would just harass them. They were so nice to me. And I just I said can you can I see the inside of the 35 millimeter. Okay, now what now? What is this now? How do we load this and these guys were, they were showing me everything. And I just sat and learn how to load, learn how to shoot bought my own cameras and started shooting. And we and we were we started making stuff you know.

Janeen Damian 19:23
So then what then I guess are the first project that we did in America was we but then we came back and we raised money.

Michael Damian 19:30
Well Michael raise money, and we shot an indie film was like what no one's going to go in. And then we sold it after. Yeah, we did a product and we were off and running. Yeah, we did a modest, you know, indie film, met fabulous producer named Brad Krivoy. Who makes a lot of movies. You know, Brad, Dumb and Dumber. He's the guy that made that film happen. And he bought the movie. Yeah. And so he bought that short film and sold it worldwide. And then we we've been

Janeen Damian 19:56
Working together. We worked with him on falling for Chris I say yeah, we it's he's actually Brad was the one who was the big turning point in

Michael Damian 20:05
Our career. Brad introduced us to 20th Century Fox Fox hired us for the flickers the prequel to Marlene, the. And so we just sort of, again, networking through people and working with people and building up, you know, you just have to, you've got to, it's great where we started. And we were able to, to, you know, inch up the budgets and get higher and higher with the budgets and take on bigger responsibilities. And it's been it's still understand the value and understand the dollar. Because when you raise your own money, and you're working on that, it really teaches you a lesson on Oh, yeah. And really how to and putting your own personal money into into it. And we've learned a lot

Alex Ferrari 20:43
You wish you don't do. Don't do that. Don't

Janeen Damian 20:44
No, no, no, we don't

Michael Damian 20:48
But we used to, but it really helps you respect, of course, every dollar you put into a film, and that's why, you know, we're always asking a lot of questions about stuffing, can we get this? And do we have to, you know, what's that going to cost? And is there any other options? Because we'd love it, but it's too expensive.

Alex Ferrari 21:05
Right! Exactly. Yeah, it's, well, it's nice that Brad was like the 800 pound gorilla in the room that kind of opened the door. And you know, you need everyone needs a champion. Everyone needs a champion. I mean, and it's many times I've interviewed so many filmmakers on the show, Oscar winners and everyone in between. They, they always have a champion, they always have either someone who's crazy, like the producer of Oliver Stone, who's like go make go make this into the Vietnam movie here 6 million that nobody would give it to him for 20 years. And they in the heat goes off and makes platoon and then the rest of it. So you have to have a crazy 800 pound gorilla or, or an 800 pound gorilla is very skilled. Or

Janeen Damian 21:46
See something in you, you know.

Michael Damian 21:50
And Brad was like, I really would love a Christmas script. Can you write a Christmas script?

Alex Ferrari 21:55
So that's the next question. What is this this obsession with Christmas guys? Seriously, you're out of control? Like, no, I just know. You filmography I'm like Christmas, Christmas Christmas. But like, I think I think I see a pattern here. So this is what I mean. It's great. And it's fun. And I see that I mean, obviously the Marlene me and the flickers and death thing. But then recently, it's just been Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. And another new movie coming out with balloons. These next ones the Irish bride the bride movie.

Michael Damian 22:25
Spooky. Yeah, so we go ahead. Yeah, no, no, it's like, well, well, we

Janeen Damian 22:35
Well, we love doing Christmas movies. So I mean, you know, the first one was because we actually love Christmas. And we're big fans of Christmas. So we thought, well, let's make one and see if everybody watch ours every year.

Michael Damian 22:47
Yeah, let's do a castle and let's go to Europe and shoot it at this beautiful castle. Let's find someplace to go off. I'm going to send you I found he sent this to Romania. Castles a castle in Romania. And here's you go and make the movie. And it was he got us. You know, Roger Moore got us. Roger Bowie, Sam. It was awesome. Yeah, Sam, Sam. Nobody knew who Sam was. And we were telling back to the stage. Like, we have this. This guy is amazing. And he's gonna be a megastar. And like, Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. And Sam is obviously he has, you know, exploded and, but as Janine said, Roger Moore. I mean, Brad is like, I know, Roger Moore. Do you want James Bond in the movie? Like, yes. How do we get him in this movie?

Janeen Damian 23:31
And, and so it was a it was an awesome movie. And it went number one. So then we then we were sort of, you know, we were proven in Christmas films.

Michael Damian 23:40
And I had a lot of requests a lot of Christmas. Yeah.

Janeen Damian 23:43
And so I'm going to work is, and they're beautiful. And they're inspiring and hopeful. And so why not, you know,

Alex Ferrari 23:51
You go where the work is, hey, you know, people like what, you know, it's that's the that's one of the big mistakes. I've heard from a lot of people on the show that talked about the like, they get a big hit in something and they're like, Christmas now I, I want to do horror. Now. I don't want to do Christmas, but I just want to go into horror films, because that's where my passion is, like, no, just stick to Christmas a little bit longer, and then go off and make something else up. But you have to establish yourself on a path of success before you can start, you know, you know, playing bass. In other words, Michael Jackson can Amanda Michael J. Michael Jordan can jump from basketball to baseball because he was Michael Jordan. He shouldn't have we all agree. But because he had established himself.

Michael Damian 24:30
Yep, he shot Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, right guy. I forgot about that.

Alex Ferrari 24:37
But imagine after his rookie year, he's like, You know what, I know. I'm like the greatest but I really needed a little time. So that's the lesson that people should take. If you're lucky enough to have a lot of success in one arena. Stay one stick with it. And you gotta love it too. It seems like you guys do love it though. You do love the Christmas would

Janeen Damian 24:51
We love it. I mean, if it was if it was something that we were really unhappy doing, then I'm sure that we would, you know, look, another way to kind of transition out but we really do. We really do like we love rom coms in general and also what's happened is is that rom com sort sort of had you know, they sort of kind of fell out of fashion and they're now coming back again but they but Christmas is always rom com so so for us we thought well that's great well we can stick with rom com you know, if we stay in Christmas, then we can still do our rom com. And now it's starting to have a resurgence again. So, so Irish wish is not Christmas, and it's still a rom com.

Alex Ferrari 25:29
Right! Exactly. And the days of When Harry Met Sally and Sleepless in Seattle, where the studios were making these big rom coms they don't like or my best friend's wedding. Those don't exist anymore in the studio system. Not really. Now it's all Netflix. Hallmark. These many studios, right? Yeah, the

Michael Damian 25:47
Ones Yeah, they're the ones making the rom coms. The bigger studios are more on the franchise, franchise action. You know,

Janeen Damian 25:55
I mean, I think Amy Schumer is doing stuff and you know, Rebel Wilson a little bit. I mean, I think they're starting to kind of come back in a more offbeat way. But you know, not quite the classic rom com like they were back then. But Irish wishes is I think more what, what people are thinking of when they think of like, following Yeah, that's exactly what fanbase is looking for.

Michael Damian 26:16
Because it's not the Christmas genre. It really is more of a classic rom com.

Alex Ferrari 26:20
Yeah. So let's talk about your latest film fall, falling for Christmas, which I saw on Netflix before I even knew that you because my wife and I were looking and like, oh, this would be a great family film that we got the girls their moods are watching it. And it's just a fun, you know, Saturday night, you know, everyone around around the campfire kind of watching movie and was so it was so beautiful. It looks gorgeous. And I was I was asking you before we got on, I'm like, is that a real place? That you build the sets like, and I'm like, analyzing I'm like it think it's because my wife was like, I don't know, it looks. I think it's real. I'm like, Yeah, I think it's real, too. So I like that there's some sets there. They built some stuff there. But it's not like a completely. It's not the Grinch that stole Christmas, dumped the entire world scenario.

Michael Damian 27:02
What it was, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 27:03
But it was beautiful. So how did that how did did did Netflix get involved first? Or did you make it and they get Netflix? How does that work?

Janeen Damian 27:10
No, this was our first movie with Netflix. And we were really excited when they they approached us with the script and Lindsey attached. So yeah, so we with

Michael Damian 27:20
Brad, our wonderful, Brad. Yes. And we all came together. Yeah. And we Yeah, and

Janeen Damian 27:28
They wanted to and what was great was that Lindsey schedule worked out so that we could shoot it actually in December. So we shot it in the snow in Utah, Deer Valley Park City midway, so we were able to actually shoot it in the snow. So that made it just that much more authentic and

Michael Damian 27:44
The locations that you're talking about are extraordinary because what we found was a gem it's the Goldener Hirsch in Deer Valley is they have the Austrian side and then they just built this spectacular modern side and there's a pasture rail between them and not to give away all the secrets and the magic of it but we had some stuff at our that was real physical right there that we had at our disposal that we could really dress and work with those structures

Janeen Damian 28:14
And they were and they were so close in proximity that we didn't have to move our base camp so we were able to shoot so we saw our dates we were able to use our our days actually shooting as opposed to moving around and then we found

Michael Damian 28:25
A beautiful North Star extender is this charming in in Midway Utah called blue bar end and we that's the one you know the the North Star exterior you saw that's the BlueBoard en and it's and we did build like the we built a little stable for

Janeen Damian 28:41
The horse and the work shed and they're still there they kept a basket

Michael Damian 28:45
Keep them sure it's a term down we didn't talk about apart now we just don't know and so fun because we go visit

Janeen Damian 28:55
The blue bar and you go you simply have brunch and then there's boundless our there's our settings so stable right there. private dining area so

Alex Ferrari 29:05
And this in this film, if I'm not mistaken he went to number one right on Netflix.

Janeen Damian 29:09
Yeah, it went number one on Netflix and in the world. And then I think of all streamers of all streaming of almost all streaming service. That's insane.

Alex Ferrari 29:20
How did you guys feel after you? I mean, that's, that's a pretty decent accomplishment. Yeah, it was.

Janeen Damian 29:24
I was huge. We were really excited.

Michael Damian 29:28
We pop some champagne for sure.

Alex Ferrari 29:30
I mean, so you know Lindsey is such a wonderful actress. I mean, I've been a fan of her since since she was a kid and I've spoken to some of the directors who worked with her on like Freaky Friday and, and Parent Trap and those kinds of things. But she's such a fantastic actress. And in this project she was she was she was great. And she has his fan base that just love her obviously. Because I saw it I was like, Oh yeah, Lindsey Yes. She's one of those people that we all recognize. We all were Remember, and we all genuinely have fond memories of the work that she did you know, when she was coming up? And I think that's one of the reasons why everyone just gravitated to this film and made it number one around the world no less.

Janeen Damian 30:12
Yes, you know, it's multigenerational her her fan base and then the young people are embracing Mean Girls again. And so everybody's kids and grandkids so her her fans when when we were in Ireland, her fans were you haven't split. There's all these little school girls and they're little.

Michael Damian 30:31
They're like, 1315 years old aside, you

Janeen Damian 30:33
Know, her hundreds of, you know, streets.

Michael Damian 30:36
Yeah, we're Wow, where are these? How do they know her? And like you

Janeen Damian 30:40
Said, so she just crosses over and, and well deserved because she really is an amazing talent. And we're so excited that she's decided to come back.

Alex Ferrari 30:50
Right, exactly. And then yeah, now you have the new movie coming out, which I'm excited to let them I love romcoms it's like one of my dirty, deep secrets. I just love walking. Dirty, stupid. I just love walking. It's like killing

Michael Damian 31:02
Cars, but it's a dirty secret. It's

Alex Ferrari 31:04
A dirty secret. That and, and boy bands like I like listening to boy band. What am I gonna do what I mean? Come on. I don't care. Leave the comments if you want guys. I don't care. I wear it with pride now.

Michael Damian 31:16
Yes. When's the best one? Right? I swear.

Alex Ferrari 31:19
Oh, no, stop it. Don't get me started. I'm not You're not gonna get me to sing it on there. Because they will become a meme. And I'm not gonna let that happen. It's already in my head. I can't. I won't be there. But. But so I always like asking directors, this producers this. What was the worst day on set? Meaning like we all have that day that the entire world's coming crashing down around us? Because that's production. So what was that day for you? And how did you overcome that challenge? I know the day.

Janeen Damian 31:52
Well, what happened was is that we had no snow and it was December. And we all did a snow dance. Oh, yeah. And it snowed so much that we couldn't get anybody through the

Michael Damian 32:03
Mountain. Everybody was stuck down at the bottom of the mountain. We and Janine and I stayed at the top of the mountain. So we

Janeen Damian 32:09
Lost a half a day. And also none of our background talent made it out. Yes. So we had to figure out how to Yeah, we had all the crew had to step in and be in the background. I got my Yeah, it was. But it was we really I mean, it's really hard to maneuver in a lot of snow. Yeah. And

Michael Damian 32:30
So however, the market the Christmas markets, of course, that was coming out. It was 10 below zero.

Alex Ferrari 32:36
I was gonna say, You know what? I literally said, my wife, my wife look at it, because we're, she's she's become a visual effects expert, all of a sudden, over the years after being with us, is that it's just like, is that real? And I go, they didn't have the budget. This is no way they had the budget to do that digitally. That's not that's real. So it's really that polar. Like, I promise you, it's probably that gold. And it was,

Janeen Damian 32:58
It was It wasn't all that snow and we were in a watershed so we weren't allowed to make any snow. So that's why we all had to do the snow dance.

Michael Damian 33:05
The snow on the trees, we couldn't put it on a synthetics. We couldn't do any synthetic anything.

Janeen Damian 33:10
Nothing or the soap bubbles. We couldn't do anything. So we're so here we are with a Christmas market, no snow, and then all of a sudden, it just dumped it snowed three feet. And then we couldn't get anybody up there. We all know and then we couldn't get anybody up there or any of the equipment. But anyway, so that was the most challenging day. But so we had to shoot really fast because we lost a half a day.

Alex Ferrari 33:31
And that's it. So in other words, you showed up with 150 shots on your shot list and you shot 10

Michael Damian 33:39
Exactly. Okay, wide

Alex Ferrari 33:41
Shot here. Move the camera there and we're out boys. Let's

Michael Damian 33:44
Go. Okay, move on. Next. Move on. The 500 extras we have 50 Okay, so let's put them all over here. Now. In other jackets are moving over here.

Alex Ferrari 33:56
I did that all the time. That's the best. I mean, you don't need 500 I mean, unless you're Ridley Scott. I mean, you don't need them and you need good 20 or 30 Yeah, fill the screen just fill the frame. That's all you need.

Janeen Damian 34:10
That when you watch it that you can't tell. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 34:13
I couldn't tell at all. No, that was a beautiful little Christmas Town.

Michael Damian 34:16
And we did get we finally they came up and what was great is that they actually made it but it was now 11 o'clock at night. And and then then

Janeen Damian 34:26
We weren't allowed to sing. They said we can't play music after 11 So we had the whole singing and the fireworks when everybody's singing and they're all there to sing and then we couldn't sing because we couldn't play music. So we just kind of you know, it's one of those

Michael Damian 34:38
We just said just ask forgiveness. Let's just crank up the music once. We'll probably get one take at this. Let's just turn around, put it on 11 Go to 11 Sing everybody until they just say stop you know the till they pull the power plug on

Janeen Damian 34:54
Us eat us but you know it was Christmas and it was a Christmas song and everybody loved it. Yeah, nobody complained

Michael Damian 34:59
Actually. Thank you We're so worried about the people in the condos complaining but nobody was complaining

Alex Ferrari 35:04
About like, hard. It's not like thrash metal, you guys.

Janeen Damian 35:09
World, the world of your shop and not to

Michael Damian 35:14
Shut us down on Joy to the world.

Alex Ferrari 35:15
I mean, what kind of, you're gonna go straight to hell, you're gonna straight to hell at that point. I mean, what's the point? Now, another question of asking, you know, especially couples who work together, how do you balance? I mean, because it's insane to be in the film industry? How do you balance the work relationship with a personal relationship, especially onset, because onset is a stressful place, production is a stressful place, feelings get hurt, egos get crushed? You know, how do you especially working so closely together as a producing directing team? How do you balance that for other other teams out there might be listening?

Janeen Damian 35:54
What you know, go ahead, you say so, oh, I think that it starts with the fact that we have very similar artistic tastes and tendencies. And so our vision tends to be a cohesive idea. And we don't really argue a lot about stuff because we, we tend to like the same things. And we, we tend to want a lot. And especially because we write, you know, most of us ever at least rewrite and polish everything we do. We're so close to it, we've already worked through it. So

Michael Damian 36:30
We finished a lot of thoughts in writing, like, we'll be writing, and she'll start a sentence, and then I'll just, it just comes out and finishing and then she's perfect. And then I ended and then she does the other character. And then we start to have a dialogue. And we start acting out the scenes right there in the office. And so it's

Janeen Damian 36:46
Between the script and then pre production, we're ammonius. Mostly, we'd like to we're really specific about everything that we want to put on screen. So about time that we finally get there. I think that we have a pretty good a pretty good idea. And we don't really have a lot to fight about except for fight for something together. Exactly.

Alex Ferrari 37:07
It's done. That makes sense that makes perfect sense. Let me ask you, if there was something that you guys could say, each of you, if you can go back in time and tell your younger self one thing about this business, a warning, if you will, just a little piece of advice at the beginning of the career, what would that be?

Michael Damian 37:28
Well, I would say I would say, if you really believe in yourself, and you really believe in something, and know it to be true. You've i You're gonna hear a lot of stuff down the road. And I'll give you my quick, probably my quick story on that, which is my record, when you say that's probably the best,

Janeen Damian 37:51
I'm always saying you're gonna tell yourself something, something different.

Alex Ferrari 37:54
Something that something like you know, guys, it's gonna be

Michael Damian 37:58
Other people, others wanting other people something that happened to me,

Alex Ferrari 38:02
No, no, no warning set, like you personally can go back in time with Marty McFly, you talk to your 16 year old self and you're thinking about getting into this business. And you go Listen, guys, you're gonna have a hell of a ride, I can't tell you anything else. But the one thing you should worry or be wary about is it's going to take a long time, you're gonna have to write, don't eat carbs, I don't know.

Janeen Damian 38:23
The sooner that you can figure out what what it is, what your passion is, and what it is that you want to do. Go for it. And it may it may not present itself right away, but really pay attention to what is meaningful to you. In, in whatever industry, you know, within the industry, I wish that I would have paid more attention. And I wish that I would have transitioned out of dancing sooner. Or at least while I was while I was on camera, I would have paid more attention to what was going on. But I didn't know that that's where I was gonna go. So I went to like Michael Jackson.

Michael Damian 38:56
And he went to bed with Coppola and Lucas and all those great people.

Janeen Damian 39:00
So don't really waste your youth. Don't waste your seize the moment. Really. I mean, if you want to go into the entertainment industry, the sooner you know that you can get in and get work experience and actually dive in there and not and not wait for stuff to come to you. I don't know. That's what I would say.

Alex Ferrari 39:21
That makes perfect sense. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Janeen Damian 39:29
Be tenacious and creative. Because, you know, if one door doesn't open find another door because there's a lot of doors available now.

Michael Damian 39:38
I would say get on a movie set as fast as you can. Yeah. I don't care. Where are you going to be because Janine and I have elevated people on our sets that came in and had no experience and we just said you know what? This young person should be over with the production design team. They're there. They're getting us coffee and this person needs to be over there learning. Because we saw what we saw what was happening here. I mean, and so

Janeen Damian 40:09
70 and be really good troubleshooter and elevate quickly.

Michael Damian 40:14
Yep, exactly. And be open and listen. And anybody, just any department engaged with them? You know, don't harass them. But you know, like I did with burns and Sawyer but the camera. Yeah. How did was that sprocket doing? No, but you know, you know, there's a point where you're annoying but but just really be there and be present. And listen, and pay attention is so important and have positive energy on set. When you don't you don't yawn? Yawn. That's a really big one.

Janeen Damian 40:45
Yeah, don't ever yawn to really try not to yarn.

Michael Damian 40:48
Yeah, go outside, go away, go go in the outhouse or something and move on, but just don't let anybody see of yawning on a set.

Alex Ferrari 40:55
Now, what is the lessons that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Janeen Damian 41:00
Good question. i Okay. Why is the opposite of my goals is to, to be confident in myself

Alex Ferrari 41:09
Believe in myself more,

Janeen Damian 41:10
Believe in myself. And that I am, I am prepared. And I am. I am worth it. So, it took me a long time to have a lot of confidence in my stuff. Michael is the most confident person I've ever met.

Michael Damian 41:30
I was just naive. I just thought you know, I My parents just instilled that it's just sad. If you're going to do it, go all the way. Do not ever quit anything. I don't care. What is the only thing I did quit, I want to tell you is that I had a paper route. And I had to quit because the dogs attacked me. Every time I went down the road. My pants were shredded. Sorry. I just I've never told anybody in any interview that so anyway, I quit. Question, What was the question?

Janeen Damian 42:05
It's a basic question. Alex, remind me that.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether the film industry or in life?

Michael Damian 42:15
The longest to learn? I would say probably not to echo you. But I think I think a lot of it was learned, really just learning and paying attention. And really picking up all the all the nuances on the set, I could have learned a lot more. I did learn but I think if I would have I guess I didn't know I was going to be on the other side of the camera, I would have been, I would be paying a little more attention to certain things. But gosh, did He mean Good answer?

Alex Ferrari 42:48
Good answer. That's a good answer. And also never underestimate the power of naivete. It is it is

Michael Damian 42:56
It's denial

Alex Ferrari 43:00
It is a gift. It is a gift. But also the the thing I always tell people is like there is an there's an insanity to what we do. It's insane. It's insane. It's insane to get a whole bunch of people together to tell a story in up a hill with snow. And there's just it's an insanity to even believe that we could do this in the first place. So you need that to even just get on the field to play. But then when you're you have denial, and you have night, like you're completely clueless along the way, but it's very powerful, but extremely dangerous.

Janeen Damian 43:36
I came along. Got me for no, you're just that you've got such a good team. Why are we such a good team? This is why you balance?

Michael Damian 43:46
Yeah, you got to you got to know your stuff. And we're have we'd like to have a lot of fun. But we're really detail oriented, we have a plan every single minute. And you know, and of course the plan is gonna go right out the window, the minute you get on the set. And we now find out that we can't shoot this way because now all the wind is blowing the blue screen into the set. And now we have to shoot another thing. And you got to learn how to adapt quickly. The most important thing is keep the train moving. Don't panic. Find a way to adapt and always keep rolling camera. It's really when I see people just stop and everything just grinds to a halt. It's painful. Sometimes it's necessary but

Janeen Damian 44:30
Try to keep shooting, find solutions, find something to

Michael Damian 44:33
Shoot, find solutions and find something to shoot. Because the clock it's in the taxi with the meter running and you've got at the end of the day time is the enemy obviously you know the enemy but constantly, you know, have a plan, but be prepared for the unexpected. And I think that's what happens almost every day on the set to be honest with you.

Alex Ferrari 44:52
And three of your favorite films of all time. Days of Heaven, Star Wars The natural Field of Dreams. Where's your baseball movie coming out? I'd love to I'd love all three of those movies. But what?

Janeen Damian 45:15
Romeo and Juliet. And he's having

Michael Damian 45:18
Romeo and Juliet as

Janeen Damian 45:20
Well, because these jerseys are sort of life forming experiences for me. So and then Also A Star is Born the Barbra Streisand one.

Alex Ferrari 45:28
Okay. All right. That's a good that's that's a good that's a good set.

Janeen Damian 45:33
Those were the ones that made me want to get into the film.

Michael Damian 45:37
Can I throw a fourth in there? Sure. Nice. Oh, that was the one that when I sat in that theater, it just,

Alex Ferrari 45:45
I mean, you want to talk about suspense of disbelief, though. You were 45 year olds playing teenagers? I mean, seriously. I mean, seriously, I mean, what was it was it candidate was that what's what's her name? Stockard Channing. She was like, 33.

Michael Damian 46:04
I didn't know we listened. I didn't know.

Alex Ferrari 46:08
I love that movie. But like, like, we go back and like, they're, they're like, 50 What is going on? Why are they flying away at the end into the sky that was never established, like what's going on?

Janeen Damian 46:24
All those questions just said, you know, I liked Greece. But I did want to know what was with the aja. She said you

Michael Damian 46:29
she was asking me all these. I was like, I don't really care. I just love them.

Alex Ferrari 46:35
Michael, I'm like you I completely suspend disbelief. My wife on the other hand, like that's not the way it would happen. And I'm like, can you just enjoy Can you suspend a little disbelief?

Michael Damian 46:48
Together Alex, you and I need to watch you because

Alex Ferrari 46:50
I just like to name my mighty cruise. But she's like, she just watches it and she like ruin stuff. And I'm like, I'm like, it's like, oh, that's not the way a doctor's office would be because I don't care. I don't care. I just let me enjoy. Like, she's ruined many a movie for me. And I'm very careful now. Like, this is okay. So I forced her to watch Star Wars. Okay, Michael, I forced all six of them. It this is years ago, years ago when we first started dating. And at the end, she goes like, she's like, you know, Darth Vader's kind of a punk. And I'm like, What do you mean? She's like, he you know, he's basically the the Emperor's like, you know, you know, like lapdog and he goes around intimidating people with his deep breathing and choking people out with his imagination. I didn't understand it. And I was like, Oh, my God, that is really amazing description. is deep breathing and chokes people out with his imagination. I was just like, You know what? I think so. You want to talk about balance? There's the balance. There's you always need. I love Star Wars too, though. Thank you. I like to

Michael Damian 48:06
Sneak I love. I sneak up and all of a sudden I hear God like, are you watching Star Wars again? It's either that or Indiana Jones and Oh, I love it. I really? That is my fourth my fifth film. Indiana. Yeah, Raiders. The Lost Ark.

Alex Ferrari 48:24
Oh, I did see the new trailer. I just came out. It just came out like two hours ago. I looks really nice. It looks good. I enjoy it looks good. I'm a James Mangold is the director. So awesome. I have high hopes I have high hopes that he's not going to be blown up by a nuclear bomb in a refrigerator this time. So buddy, we could keep geeking out about movies forever. Guys, I appreciate you coming on the show was such a pleasure talking to you guys. Continued success. I can't wait to see Lindsay's new movie and your new movie when it comes out coming out by the way. I wish wish

Janeen Damian 49:00
Oh, we don't have a release date. Well, we're just editing it now. So I think they'll it'll be forthcoming your release date but we're not sure yeah. 2023 2023

Michael Damian 49:11
Yeah, we're we'll be done. Probably around April May when you know when we've picked your lock and color and sound music all that should be around May, April May. So alright.

Alex Ferrari 49:21
Well guys, continuous access, and it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you guys. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Janeen Damian 49:27
Thank you so much for having us.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 343: Can You Make Money with Short Films? (Vidiverse) with Alex Proyas

December 1, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

I am excited to have back on the show legendary writer, director Alex Proyas.

The last time he was here, we discussed his career, working within the studio system, dealing with insane interference in his creative vision, why he was shooting short films. At the time, his movie, The Heretic Foundation, and his misadventures in Hollyweird had just been released.

I’ve been following all the cool stuff he’s been working on social media, his shorts, etc. I’m thrilled for him. It’s nice seeing an artist creating and not waiting for someone to permit them to make.

For those of you who are not familiar with Alex Proyas’s work, he is the filmmaker behind The Crow, Dark City, The Knowing, Gods of Egypt, iRobot, and Mask of the Evil Apparition.

iRobot was directed by Proyas, written by Akiva Goldsman and Jeff Vintar. The 2004 Box Office $346 million grossed film received mixed reviews. It starred Will Smith and was a technophobic cop in 2035 who went on to investigate a crime that may have been perpetrated by a robot, which leads to a larger threat to humanity.

Today, we are talking more about his new streaming platform VIDIVERSE. I really wanted to promote what you’re doing because I know it’s coming from a great place. I need to promote what you’re doing because I know it’s coming from a great place.

VIDIVERSE is a new streaming platform that offers a non-exclusive destination for streaming curated content of all kinds. In time, the platform will partner with creators to help produce content.

Most independent filmmakers are getting away from Youtube, and that was the inspiration behind Proyas’s VIDIVERSE. YouTube seems to have developed stricter policies about who derives any income from content. Even though a few people manage overtime to beat the algorithm, most creators get very few views. Independent creators to continue building through the platform. Vimeo, and others that similarly target filmmakers ease the streaming challenge. Still, there’s nothing between those two ends of the spectrum because YouTube seems to soak it all up through advertising.

So, someone like Proyas, who has moved effortlessly between helming TV commercials and music videos to feature films, understands the demand for more targeted platforms and fair revenue distribution models. This is what he intends to develop with VIDIVERSE.

Alex also gave us an EXCLUSIVE UPDATE on the development of his Dark City streaming series. This was a fun conversation.

Please enjoy our guest, Alex Proyas.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome back to the show returning champion, Alex price. How you doing Alex?

Alex Proyas 0:15
Hey Alex, good, how you doing?

Alex Ferrari 0:18
I'm good, my friend. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming back on the show, I was excited to have you back. Because of the cool stuff that you've been working on. I've been following you on social media and seeing your shorts and seeing all the, you know, the cool stuff that you're doing. And it just, it just tickles my my heart to see an artist creating and not waiting for someone to give them permission to create an AI, you are a champion of that. So at first, before we even get started, thank you for being that inspiration to so many people out there.

Alex Proyas 0:48
Well, you're very, very welcome and ditto to you.

Alex Ferrari 0:51
Thank you, my friend. Thank you. So so we're gonna be talking about your new streaming platform video verse. It, which is sounds amazing. And I really wanted to promote what you're doing, because I know it's coming from a really great place. But before we jump into that I wanted wanted to kind of go out a little bit, in your opinion, what are the major issues filmmakers have with getting their work seen? And then also getting paid to get that work seen?

Alex Proyas 1:20
Yeah, well, I think it's, it's kind of pretty impossible, and, you know, YouTube scene for a while to be a kind of a way through, you know, the fact that we could put our content on, we didn't have to ask anyone's permission. It didn't matter what, how good, bad or indifferent. And when money we'd spent how much money we hadn't spent, whether our friends or family were in the cast, you know, it didn't matter. We could get our films out there and get people to see it. But unfortunately, you know, YouTube seems to have kind of developed a stricter and stricter policy about who derives any income from such content, you know, and look, you know, that, you know, there's always a success stories of people who managed to stream their content and get millions of views. But, you know, most people's situations, and there's some good films out there, I know, because I've been looking, they get very few views, they just don't know how to get their, their films through the sort of, you know, YouTube algorithm, you know. So it's really hard for those people who, you know, to keep building their, their films through that platform. And you know, there's obviously platforms like Vimeo, which can be much more specifically targeted, and you can you know, that your films look better on Vimeo, etc. But, you know, there's really nothing between those two ends of the spectrum where, you know, you can, your films can get seen by people, and maybe you can derive what little small amounts of income your film might generate, you know, YouTube seems to soak it all up through advertising, you know, they, they, they make their billion dollars, but the filmmakers very rarely see any of that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 3:12
I think that's a general statement. I think that's I mean, going back to when the United when the United Artists opened up and Chaplin and Pickford and inflammed got pissed off from the studios that paying them that they opened up their own studio. I think that is, it's isn't that kind of the way it works with with, with Hollywood and generally just in the big business, I think big business in general, when business and art get together in any art form. The artist always seems to get the short end of the stick, no matter what medium it is, is that fair to say?

Alex Proyas 3:47
Yeah, always, I mean, you know, the entertainment industry and not just film music and everything else, you know, work on the fact that it's, there's endless streams of exploitable young people coming through who want to be exploited, you know, I want it to be exploited when I was when I was a young pup, you know, I was like, Yeah, come on, exploit me, let me do this stuff. You pay me some sort of, you know, pittance of money, just so that I can do my thing, you know, and that's kind of always been the way and and the industry you know, the, the corporations have always kind of, you know, succeed based on that. Cannon Fodder, I call them you know, and it's still this the same to this very day. I mean, you know, the Hollywood would rather work with some young pup right now then some schmuck like me who's cynical and who gets how the whole business model works and wants to change it, you know, because it's just easier for them, you know, and they'll make all their money and so YouTube, you know, is is sort of a, you know, an offshoot of that it just works on the same Sort of exploitable principles, you know? Yeah, give us your free content, give it to us for nothing. We'll Shut it. You know, that's what you get out of the equation, and we'll make billions of dollars out of it. I mean, what is it about that business model that works for the filmmakers, you know,

Alex Ferrari 5:17
right. And, you know, it's fascinating because even in the 80s 90s, even the early 2000s, a studio would have never given a young pup $200 million, or $150 million to make a temple film. But that seems to happen much more now. Because of what you're saying, like spirit of specifically Marvel. And a lot of they have a machine basically. And I've talked to people who've worked within the Marvel machine, and they just kind of just, they just, it's like, almost the insert director here. Yes, they're guiding the process. And certain directors have more say than others. But generally speaking, they're giving like I remember I read an article with Ridley Scott Ridley Scott's like, I don't even understand how this is like, why would you give a $25 million and not give Ridley Scott or yourself $100 million to do it and you're right is because you guys know how the game is playing. They don't want to deal with you.

Alex Proyas 6:10
Yeah. And it's also because you know, those films not not to spend another session ragging on Marvel. No, no, I do. We do enjoy it. Right?

Alex Ferrari 6:20
I I

Alex Proyas 6:21
certainly enjoy them as well, those those movies kind of make themselves you know, and it's arguable how important the director is, it's kind of like a long running TV series. Everyone knows what they're doing, you know, and certainly the producers of those movies know what they're doing. They've made many countless successes. So they'll just you know, it just kind of rolls along and the director comes in and talks to the actors and you know, hangs out with the actors I guess is what the role is you know, so I'm not my not my idea of filmmaking really. But you know, look good on him I just I just feel like you know, we we need to be thinking of other other ways forward you know,

Alex Ferrari 7:05
yes, but yeah, especially for for Natalie, young filmmakers, for artists in general filmmakers in general that aim to get not only the work seen, but paid for, but I have to ask you, do you have any stories of your misadventures in Hollyweird with with falling prey to Hollywood accounting or something that you know you were like what I what point did you um so I'm assuming somewhere in your journey you got you got a check and you said I'm sorry what?

Alex Proyas 7:33
Yeah, no, it happens to me on a weekly monthly basis still to this day for movies that you've done I I received a you know there were these things called residuals you know that we used to get which were actually really great they kept us alive between movies you know, because the fact is as filmmakers you know, even if you're very successful as a filmmaker you know, you get your payday once every few years and you get paid you know, I was paid very handsomely but then that money is going to stretch out over many many years and it starts to become significant you know, so I was reliant on residuals to keep me alive as were many filmmakers many filmmakers that I knew that I know very well and unfortunately the residuals you know, Netflix in the stream is don't pay residuals so suddenly they've dropped in the last few years to very small amounts of money to the point where you know, I'll get a check for I got a check for dark city a few months ago which was which was you know, of note enough to post on my Instagram account for $7.36 you know, which which is you know, that's a quote that represents a quarter of the all the total residuals that are received for dark city now that's just kind of insulting I personally I'd rather just not get the check. I'd rather they just held on to it. I keep meaning to call the authorities that deal with the residual and say, just hang on to them in your bank account, maybe they can earn a little bit of interest until they amount to something over at least over 50 or $100 you know, because quite frankly, it actually costs me more to cash that check because it's us US dollar Yeah, it cost me $25 to cash it so I actually I actually lose by doing that you

Alex Ferrari 9:22
know oh Mike it's like that Seinfeld it's like that old Seinfeld episode where he got like, you know, 100 or 501 set residual checks he had to sign all of them Yeah.

Alex Proyas 9:33
What are we doing exactly right so that's where that's where we're at you know and and, you know, cut to a few years ago and you know, we could survive between movies on what we were getting from residuals every every year you know, it would pan out to have to keep you you know, pay your mortgage and feed your family you know, so, so that was great. So you can work on your scripts and work on your projects and not be beholden to, to the, you know, the bank manager, the wolves up Door, you know? So yeah, it's it's not a it's not a good situation we're being pushed into creative people are being pushed into these more and more untenable scenarios, you know, at the moment that's been going on for some time.

Alex Ferrari 10:14
Yeah, I mean, if I always tell filmmakers, if you want to see what's gonna, what's happening is going to happen. Let's just look at the music industry. I mean, music is turned into, it's where it has no worth. It's like literally pennies, pennies, wave fractions, fractions of pennies.

Alex Proyas 10:30
Yeah, it's all about, you know, data rates. And we basically follow where music goes, film follows, you know, which is exactly what's, what's going on. You know, the streaming, the music streaming services are doing very well, as are the film streaming services, you know,

Alex Ferrari 10:47
and the labels.

Alex Proyas 10:48
And the and the labels. Yeah, of course. Yeah. As it's always been, you know. And so, of course, you know, we're looking at all this and it's only been exacerbated as we, as we said, it's only been exacerbated by the, by the pandemic, it's become more and more extreme, you know, I went from dreaming of owning a theater one day, like I wanted to, you know, I've always wanted to own like, my own cinema, you know, like a painting, sure, you know, movie house. And I've gone from that to dreaming of owning a streaming service, because I've just got to face the writing on the wall. It's like, it's just not, you know, we're just not there at the moment. You know, we're not when you know, whether whether or not we'll get through this, some, this pandemic, and another some God help us something else will happen. And we'll be locked down again, who the hell knows who can predict the future? Now? You know, it seems like the only certainty right now is on the internet.

Alex Ferrari 11:40
Yeah, and I think that's where everyone's going to eventually I think hopefully, cinemas won't go away like that, the way of the dodo. But I think it will become much more specific, very much like Broadway is, you know, ticket tickets will be better it will be we will still want to have those events, but going to see an independent film in a mass way, other than if it's an art house is not going to happen. It's just too much content.

Alex Proyas 12:04
I agree. And I think that's really the most pertinent point that you've put so so well is it's more, you know, the cinemas will survive sure, but I think they'll be servicing the Marvel's and the and the end streamers. You know, I think though, there certainly is that demand for that big screen experience that will probably never go away as a few recent, you know, releases have shown us but what about everyone else? You know, I think we have to, sadly, embrace the well not sadly, you know, optimistically and hopefully embrace the the, the internet medium and try and make that our own at least, you know, right.

Alex Ferrari 12:48
And there are and

Alex Proyas 12:49
I remember hearing about Radiohead, you know, when, when the music streaming first started hitting hard A few years ago, I remember hearing about Radiohead releasing an album in that way only available over the internet and I'm like, gee, that's kind of a weird thing to do. But now of course I go Well, that was prophetic. You know, they were really trying to wrestle control back into their, into their camp as individual artists, you know, and I think that's, that seems to be the sort of place where filmmakers are out at the moment,

Alex Ferrari 13:22
but I think but the thing is that it's because like you said earlier in the conversation, every filmmaker could put their movie out, and on YouTube, it's tomorrow and anything could go out. But unfortunately, just like the musicians, they have to not only be artists, but they have to be business people, marketers, web designer, sometimes, they have to have so many other things other than being just the artist to be able to survive as as just to be able to survive. And if you're not lucky enough to be a Radiohead that built their entire view their fan base on the backs on the dime of the label that got them to be that big you know like it same thing with same thing with filmmakers. I mean, I've said this many times like yeah, you know, Kevin Smith, a spike lee, you know, Martin Scorsese, we know these names, because they've been working within the studio system for so long. And that was got their name up there. But like the indie guy who has one indie and didn't have, like, you know, studios pushing it, it's hard to get that name going unless you build your own thing up, you know, by yourself.

Alex Proyas 14:26
Yeah, exactly. Right. That's exactly right. It's, you know, and it's arguable, you know, whether, through the current system, will it get any more of those names coming out of the woodwork, you know, it's very, very, it's becoming increasingly increasingly rare. And, and I feel like that's why it's time for something too, for a new a new way forward. You know, you know, the the the the auditor has been kind of watered down over the years, you know, we've been made to the Commercial concerns have tried to diminish the importance of the otter You know, I've actually read so many articles about why the otter theories is wrong. And you know, I grew up with the otter theory that's what I get the sort of filmmakers that I followed as a kid and that's the sort of filmmaker I wanted to become, you know, and, you know, it's been, you know, a pretty difficult road to get to that point through the commercial system. You know, so I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very important that we hang on to that original creator kind of approach to things and it seems to me that the indie world is where those filmmakers appear these days, you know, the one that already the, the mainstream otters that are already there have, I think, have done their dash you know, and don't know that we're going to get that many new ones appearing through that system. And I think the indie world is where they're going going to be coming from in the future.

Alex Ferrari 16:03
I mean, I think the only way that happens is an indie person gets a shot of a big studio movie. That big studio movie makes a lot of noise and then they can go back and start doing their own indie stuff like again, although Toro was a good example of that, but that's still we're still going back 1015 years but to Hickey the guy who did Thor and Thor Randall rock to Hickey I can't add new components and New Zealander

Alex Proyas 16:27
yeah

Alex Ferrari 16:28
wonderful wonderful that's a new name that kind of popped up he was an indie guy got Thor and then and then now he's he's but even then we're still talking about handful. We're talking about maybe 234 but it's the 90s when there was like, you know, Robert Rodriguez Spike Lee you know all these names just started popping up every month it was insane.

Alex Proyas 16:49
Those days are gone. Guillermo is not Guillermo has been around as long as I have I mean he's not he's not a fresh

Alex Ferrari 16:56
No he's not he's not you know, he's not a fresh puppy at all. But yeah, he started off in the indie world, but he wished he came up in the 90s. And he didn't really pop until in the 2000s. But he's been around for a long time as well. So it's, it's it's it's it's disheartening for and I think a lot of creators listening now, who didn't grow up in the 80s 90s in the early 2000s don't understand what that world was like. You know, to have someone like yourself, do the Crow and then do the dark city and to do iRobot in these kind of films. It's just you know, I don't know it's just it's sad. It's just sad. I

Alex Proyas 17:37
think we may have talked about this on the last podcast we did but the you know, in those days, you know, I was like, Hey, I'm gonna do a film based on an original underground comic book you know that no one's heard of and it's like yeah, great. Sounds like a great idea you know, here have money to make a movie you know you know, it was like there was no question about it wasn't people you know, the industry was still interested in original stuff, you know, with dark city in particular you know, hey, I'm gonna make a film based on nothing based on something that came out of my head you know, in this weird world that doesn't exist you know? Yeah, sounds like a great idea let's go let's do it you know, I mean, this stuff just doesn't occur now. Not it's that sort of budget range at least you know, so so it's um, yeah, it is definitely a new new whole new world

Alex Ferrari 18:31
right now. And I think the only one really doing the only one out there who could who could be the tour and also work within the studio system system is Christopher Nolan and he's the only filmmaker I know that has the juice that he's got right now. I mean, I don't know if you saw the details of his deal but I was like Jesus he's got he wants everything I think this is fantastic. Give that man whatever he wants

Alex Proyas 18:52
yeah that's pretty funny know it's like you know he's he's a very rare exception yeah to anyone is in that situation but look, you know, I mean, we're you're only as good as your last movie. Really?

Alex Ferrari 19:06
Correct.

Alex Proyas 19:07
you no matter who you are, I'm sure he's worn his deal probably even better than than the one that's been publicized publicize? I think he's probably taken a little bit of a step backwards based on the box office of Denver last film, you know, so, you know, it's it's

Alex Ferrari 19:24
no one no one's bullet rarity. No one's bulletproof. There was a moment in time when I heard people saying, Oh, it's over for Spielberg. He's done because he did a couple of bombs back to back and then of course, he came out with Jurassic Park and Schindler's List in the same year and said and shut everybody up. He's like, Oh, really, let me do this for you guys. But that's just the way the game is played. That's the way Hollywood is. But I wanted to ask you, you know, we talked about YouTube a little bit. Is there a because obviously there's a lot people making money on youtube and you can make money a living is another question, but you can't make money on YouTube. With a massive amount of content in our very specific niche, but I haven't seen filmmakers make money on, you know, like, I haven't seen short films The

Alex Proyas 20:09
real Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, like what you do is perfect for YouTube and and, you know, doing commentary doing reviews, etc, etc It seems to be an information based success story YouTube, you know, and I know from the sort of stuff that I watch on YouTube, I very rarely, rarely go, hey, let's check out someone's short films. I'm only doing it now because of what I'm proposing, you know, but it's not the place to go for short films, you know, having said that, some filmmakers that I know have had, you know, one off huge successes, suddenly their short film takes off, you know, often that's, you know, that's supercharged by, you know, groups like dust, or these these, these companies sort of ideas that basically promote, you know, genre based content, you know, you know, but it's, it's not, it's not a perfect model. And it's, and it's partly because, and nor is nor is Vimeo, a great model, because you never know what you're going to get, you know, you never know as a viewer, what you're going to get when you you know, buy a subscription to, to, to Netflix. You know, it's it's a little less of a crapshoot, I mean, it's that's a bit of a crapshoot. Still, people don't consider it as much because there's so much more available, but you know, there's a certain quality control that goes into what you're going to be able to tune into. And a lot of it's very heavily promoted an advertiser, you kind of know what you're getting, you're getting, you know, when you subscribe, you know, YouTube could never be that because it is a completely scatto random scattershot kind of approach to, to content, you know, so you know, it's always gonna be that little thumbnail, that grabs your attention, someone being angry about something, usually, is what grabs your attention. and off you go, and you're gonna watch the first 30 seconds before you realize, you know, you don't want to watch this thing and go to the next thing, you know, that's a YouTube thing for you, not conducive to watching a story being told, you know. So, you know, look, that's, I think that's really the key. And that's why it doesn't seem to work for people. Other than, you know, some, as we say that some of these stories can be, you know, a guy watch playing, you know, playing computer games, you know, and it's like, well, you know, I don't know I don't being, you know, someone who wants to watch a story being told, it's not really my cup of tea, but it's obviously the cup of tea of many, many millions of people, you know.

Alex Ferrari 22:41
Now, you know, you've you've had the privilege of working on indie projects, as well as giant studio projects, or feature films. But you tend to keep going back to shorts, I wanted to ask you your opinion on shorts as a medium in general, do you think it's something that is valuable, not only for artists to express themselves, but valuable for filmmakers to either grow their careers or experiment? What's your feeling on shorts as a general statement?

Alex Proyas 23:10
I think absolutely everything you've said, I do think they're very valid. I mean, I equate them to being like, you know, as a writer, you write novels, and you write short stories. I mean, people don't turn away from the short story form, once they've written a novel, it's just as valid a form of, you know, create creativity. And I've always liked short films, I like watching them, I've been the many juries to judge short films, I've been to, you know, in festivals all over the world to judge short films and features. But I think they're just as valid in an art form. And the only reason they haven't been considered by the mainstream is developed, or that is, you can't make any money out of them as a as a, as a producer, or as a as a studio. You know. So that's, that's really the reason it's, I believe the art form has ever really taken off. But as an art form, it's completely valid. As a filmmaker, you learn, you know, there's a real art to telling us six things, three, grabbing someone and grabbing an audience and holding an audience for that short period of time is a huge art form. And it's one that you know, I discovered making TV commercials and music videos way back when you know, and one that I continue to explore and experiment with in, you know, narrative, short story short, short filmmaking, you know, and I encourage everyone to continue doing. It's actually interesting. I've noticed a few filmmakers a few feature filmmakers recently, because I've had, I've had a short pop up in a few festivals around the world, and I've noticed others there's some other feature filmmakers out there like me, who also have been, you know, sending their short films out to festivals to, to because it's one of the few sort of outlets for short filmmakers you know, so It's kind of interesting I think a few a few other people are probably think feeling the way I do about them right about the the medium right now, you know?

Alex Ferrari 25:07
Yeah, it's always it's, you know, monetizing shorts has always been the problem, I've been able to do it a couple times. But many times I failed, being able to recoup my money or actually make a hefty profit. It's rare to be able to do if you have something that's focused on a niche audience may be things like that, but it's tough. It's tough. And I've seen so many people try to figure it out, you know, which brings me to video verse. And what you're doing with video verse. First of all, what is very verse And when did this idea come up to you, when you it wasn't when you when the idea came to you? Was it when you decided I can't buy a movie theater anymore? This is ridiculous. I need a streaming service. When did this come up? And what is it all? Look

Alex Proyas 25:49
it's been, it's been on my mind for many, many years. And in fact, I actually tried to create a filmmakers website 20 years ago, called mystery clock, which was, you know, with, with the view to eventually do what we are now embarking on with, with video verse, it's taken all that time for the technology to get to the point where you're not watching postage stamp size.

Alex Ferrari 26:20
Oh, god, oh, so bad. It was so bad.

Alex Proyas 26:23
Yeah. You know, I built a future proofing my my mark world, my filmmaking world going, this is where it's going to go eventually, back then I had that sort of prophetic vision. And I knew that it would take some time, I just didn't realize how long it would take, you know, so that site, sadly failed eventually. But here we are now in in 2021. And this stuff is doable. And I think, you know, for me, the the the idea came from the fact that, you know, we can't you know, it was it was a multi prong thing, what you know, one is very verse wants to eventually be streaming features and everything, you know, but we're starting with short, too, because shorts, to me seemed the real weak point for independent filmmakers, you know, and I and as I say, because I've been judging so many short film festivals recently, a lot of isolation type style film festivals because of the pandemic. I mean, I've been blown away by the quality of the work. It's really outstanding, you know, and I just did one a few months ago here called flicker Fest, that's a big, a big deal in Sydney. We managed to sneak in between the lockdowns and it was a live event, they did it in a sort of open air area in on the beach, near the beach in Sydney. So we could all you know, occasionally pull our masks down and drink our beers as we were watching the shorts, and it was an awesome, it just reminded me again, of not just this power of theatrical presentation, but moreso the power of the short film medium, you know, the audience had a great time watching, you know, a two hour program of short films from all over the world, different genres, different, different ideas, different narratives. But the one thing they had in common was there was a quality to the mall, they were all really high quality. And it was actually really, really hard. I watched, maybe I was judging the international program. And over over about a couple of weeks, I think I've watched maybe 70 movies, short films. And it was really hard to pick winners because there was so many great ones, you know, we actually ended up creating awards prizes for specific films that were the prizes didn't exist, because we liked the quality of the film so much, you know, I think that process I started thinking you know, it's it's just criminal that these films are not seen by a wider audience beyond the sort of the the, the, you know, the film festival circuit. And I started thinking more and more specifically, at that point about creating a streaming service that could program a bit like the way Film Festival works program, a series of short films that were maybe even more had more common threads to them, maybe genre or stylistic threads, that could bring a program of 678 short films together. And then whether there was some way to monetize that for the filmmakers. And also, of course, for the for the platform to exist to create a market and an A for the for this content, you know, but basically saying, Okay, well, we are me and as I said, at the beginning of this call was, you know, at the moment I'm looking at all the films myself, because to me, the curated aspect of this is really important that you know, I initially and her and her Hopefully, eventually others at vt verse can maintain a standard of curated quality so that, that we do have that guarantee to an audience who are coming into it, and paying money to watch these films that may or may not be available in other parts of the internet, that we're saying, if you come to us, we guarantee that you're going to get a package of great content, great film, filmmaking, you know, and that's really the whole sort of, you know, origin of this of this idea, you know, so

Alex Ferrari 30:32
so very verse at the moment, we'll accept you're accepting short films, you're looking at short films, is there eventually going to be a financial, you know, arrangement with for the filmmakers, as far as you know, profit sharing things like that, or right now, is it just purely an exhibition platform,

Alex Proyas 30:51
we wanted to, to have a, you know, a licensing scenario, and we're not, we don't want to exclusively license because, for me, it's all about, I don't want to limit filmmakers, ways of making money. If they, if they're making money from their films in other ways, I don't want to get in the way of that, you know, and some of the films that we're dealing with yet, they are already on other platforms, you know, so we're not about exclusively licensing, but we are about packaging, short film content with other like minded short film content, to kind of supercharge their potential to make money, you know, you know, we'll be cutting trailers that are not just one person's film, but a series of short films that are all part of the program. And that way, as I say, a subscriber or a or a user of this platform, can at least get a you know, if you like, one, you'll probably like the others kind of approach. And, and watch a program that's not just 10 minutes long, that is feature length long, you know, or maybe even longer of short films, but they're buying into the program as such, and any funds that are generated because, you know, the reality is, this is all highly speculative, whether or not much funds are generated or not, of course, now it remains to be proven. But all those whatever funds are generated will be split between video verse and the film makes involved with each with each package, you know, so is this the least So, at least that's what we're embarking upon. And then if we get when we get into features, and we get into, you know, we want to get into, like, if we like specific filmmakers, we want to get into programs of specific filmmakers work, you know, many of these film makers have created more than one short film so if we like one, we'll probably like more. So we're investigating that with a few filmmakers at the moment to to basically monetize their brand and make their brand something in this quest for the otter, the new otter to create a kind of brand identity within video verse, or individual specific filmmakers.

Alex Ferrari 33:07
Now is this going to be is this T VOD s VOD, a VOD, I want to say that it's transactional is a subscription or is it advertising based

Alex Proyas 33:16
what it's probably going to be a combination of things. And we're still were developing it so it's still trying to knock through the the logistics, let's say. And you know, and we're also trying or specifically but it is a process we're going through right now and part of the reason we're still kind of you know, working that stuff out is because we're not certain right now how big a platform we want to launch You know, this study aleksis started off from me going I just want to get my own stuff out there on a on all my shorts, I'm going to take it off YouTube and get it onto a platform let's just launch that and I've got this project called mascot evil apparition which is doing very well on the first level at the moment. use that as a way let's just try it and see right so when from that and like all my other mad projects, it starts off at a very crude fundamental level and then evolves into this monster and so we're in mid transformation into the monster right now with more and more and I was saying I'm a bit fearful about talking to you and you getting the word out because I'm fearful of how many more short films I'll actually have to watch and how much less of a weekend I'll have with my family. So we're trying to balance all those factors before we go yet his subscription model and, and we don't want people to coming be disappointed by how little content there is, you know, I'm saying it's like it's a balancing act, you know, so in May launch, I wouldn't, you know, personally and there are other people involved other other partners involved with this venture who have their word as well, but personally, I want to say See this launch as soon as possible, my, my feeling is to launch it with whatever we have, you know, and make it like a sampler and maybe give people give subscribers a kind of early adopter discount if you decide to subscribe with the small amount of content that we have, knowing that it's going to grow into something much bigger. So we'll probably end up being something along those lines, you know,

Alex Ferrari 35:25
fair, fair enough. And I you know, this seems First of all, he's been fantastic. I love the idea of what you're doing. I love that you're doing it and your taste and your curation is doing this, which is what I love. Because there's been a lot of other streaming services that pop up, I get contacted by streaming services, new streaming services on a weekly basis, hey, we got this new streaming service, hey, we're for the independent filmmaker, and I look at their sites and it just like, I can't even you know, I've been offered like, would you buy our streaming service? Like no? Like, no, I don't want to buy your streaming service. But the but when I saw you doing it, I was like, Okay, this is something more interesting. It just takes everything up to a different level when you're involved. Because I'm such a fan of your taste and of your filmmaking I think what you're bringing in I think your, your, I guess your, your lens, everything's being funneled through your lens and that's what's exciting and like, Okay, he's going out and bringing in this amazing content. I think that's a big selling point for what you're, you're doing but I'd love to ask what do you what do you what's the what's the goal five years from now 10 years from now do you you know, how big do you want to get what do you want this to eventually be for filmmakers?

Alex Proyas 36:43
I hope this can be a real thing. I really think I you know, I hope that we can make it a viable industry that people can actually create their content, put it on this website and earn enough from their content. And that is, you know, that makes it viable for them to keep making content you know, I mean, we're trying to across the board with everything we're doing right now is reevaluate the economic structure of filmmaking, you know, from producing, to making to, to develop from developing to producing to distributing right and very verse for me is the sort of final prong of the of that triangle triangle of creation which allows filmmakers to get their stuff seen by people because as we've always said, if it's one thing that make you film we all this wonderful technology that makes it affordable and easy to do. If no one sees it then it's like the tree falling in the forest you know, so that this distribution part of this is absolutely essential so I hope that this is the final part of that you know, that can make make it a viral ball a new viable way to make films and to survive and to earn a living making films You know, that's a lofty goal and I certainly think that's a few years off because I'm not guaranteeing that any individual filmmaker who's you know submitting their work to V verse at the moment you know, if I if I managed to get them a check for a few bucks every quarter I'll be like yeah, that's a success story you know, but I hope we can build on that I hope as more as we get more subscribers more people interested we can keep building this as an idea you know,

Alex Ferrari 38:38
now but will the residual check be bigger than your dark city residual check is the question well, you can't guarantee but the hope is that you can

Alex Proyas 38:47
make it on those terms right?

Alex Ferrari 38:50
Isn't that scary?

Alex Proyas 38:51
When you when you look at it in those terms you know i i can I've just made this film called mascot evil apparition which is going to be one of our first launched videos so called reverse originals, right we're going to launch it and say you can buy this short film by this this schmuck prayers for you know, 299 or whatever, whatever, you know, 50 cents or whatever we're going to put on a we don't know, you know, or subscribing you get it for free, or whatever we're going to say, you know, and honestly, I would be amazed if I know, there have been so many people reaching out to me from my own followers going, how can we see this film? Yes, we'll pay for it. Yes, let us know. And we'll we're there. And there's maybe a few 100 people and maybe there's more people out there. You know, maybe some of those people are lying. Maybe they won't pay for it when they see the trailer. But it's gonna be more than 795 you know, I mean, I'm gonna get a little bit more I know. So there you go the model already. I believe

Alex Ferrari 39:53
it's already worth the bar. The bar is low at 795 The bar is fairly low that you've got to break for this to be a success yeah you should frame that you should frame that check in the offices video verse like everyday guys every day that's what we're gonna break that 795 yeah now when So when is this when are you releasing this to the world

Alex Proyas 40:19
well that I can't do this with about either we're hoping before the end of the year or early in the new year and again it's about really reaching that critical mass where we go yeah this is great and you know we're we're building the site again we have no there's no financing behind this it's all me waking up one day and going yeah, I'll put some dollars into that I did that stupid idea and I've got my heretic foundation colleagues who helping me create this this thing so it's a it's a somewhat unplanned there's an app it's an unplanned business plan right now so you know that's why it's a little has to remain a little flex

Alex Ferrari 41:03
Of course of course you're still trying to figure this all out but I think the intentions are good of what you're trying to do and the the idea is solid and I can't wait to see what the what you guys come up with every year and I'm so I'm so and cannot

Alex Proyas 41:17
Can I Oh yes, I'll just be clear though, that the the SOP is always open for submissions you know, we are actually accepting submissions from anyone in whoever whoever wherever they are. We were getting submissions from all over the world right now. And language is not an issue for us as long as there's English subtitles on the project. We're getting really cool stuff out of Europe and and Mexico and all sorts of great great filmmaking centers. And so you know, we're open for business in that respect at least to create what that library is going to be before we launch

Alex Ferrari 41:56
that that's awesome. I am I'm excited to see what you come up with i mean i'm so I'm so happy that you know, filmmakers like you are still going up to the plate and taking the big swings where many many don't many just stick to their own work and their own art but you're actually trying to help other filmmakers and try to give other filmmakers voices in the next generation a way to keep doing this in the way that you know you and I were able to do it while we were you know coming up it's like you no way to sustain ourselves as artists so I'm so I'm so happy that you're still taking those swings my friend

Alex Proyas 42:31
Why thank you very much. I mean, I think we have to it's it's a it's a cognitive existential crisis that we're all in you know, we're all together in our respect. So I feel like it's it's it's got to be done, you know, and you know, I I think what, you know, what you mentioned earlier on is important that, you know, my, my, you know, you are seeing stuff through my lens. I've always said over the years, people always ask me what what I think about people's other other filmmakers work and I guide up, I never want to be a critic or a reviewer of other filmmakers work because I don't, it doesn't matter what I think about the work every film is hard to make, it doesn't matter whether it's good, bad, or indifferent, you know, they should be, you know, they should be encouraged because they've made a film, you know, and it's the same with, with every, with every level of filmmaking, I believe, you know, and it's kind of this is kind of my opportunity to encourage films that I really like, you know, it's, it's, for me a really specific way of doing it. I'm not criticizing other films, all I'm saying is that these films are ones that I think are worth looking at. And, you know, they're the, the, the quality varies the the, the budgets vary wildly, the resources are going into it, the acting quality, whatever, it is just stuff that I think is cool, you know, that's really the, at the end of the day. You know, what, what, what comes through all this, this, this stuff, and I hope that we can carry that through. As we move forward, you know, stuff that's cool, and into something that holds you that engages you to make you want to watch the news, because it's doing something really something you've never seen before something it's weird, it's interesting, that's unusual, or just, it's a very, it could be a very, you know, small, you know, real world story that's being told in you know, without any genre kind of influence or whatever. I mean, it really doesn't matter. It's all about just something that is, as I say, cool, you know, the cool

Alex Ferrari 44:43
factor, the cool factor. Now, I really love you to talk a little bit about what you're doing at the heritage foundation and what and your virtual production studio that you're building in Australia and everything because I'm, I'm a huge fan of the technology but you you really kind of spearheaded this technology, so can you talk bit about that. Yeah,

Alex Proyas 45:02
we built this studio. It's close to a year and a half, two years ago now. Which was, it's a virtual production facility basically, it's a way to create Well, it's, it's actually a bigger idea than that it's a way to bring all the aspects of filmmaking under the one umbrella, you know, I say ironically, now, because we've actually just moved into our own VFX facility, which is a kind of a sister company to heretic, it's still heretic Foundation, but it's like, where all the VFX get done, you know, because we're growing, you know, but it's so it's a way to use virtual production to streamline how films are made to still be able to bring enormous great production value, but at a at a lower budget range, you know, when you don't have to move around when you don't have to go to multiple locations, when you don't have to build big sets, etc, etc. You can, you can work faster and more expediently you can bring the the the cost of the production down. Or, more importantly, you can elevate the production value of low budget indie films, which is kind of the real key for me, you know, now that we've actually we've just completed a we're completing our first feature, not my not my film, one for another director, guy called john Curran. It's a film called mercy road, which is, it's basically it's a movie at night, it's set in real time, a guy in a in a truck, it's a thriller, it's a bit like jewel, but it's more Gothic and sort of dark and spooky, you know, and we've created the entire world for this film, we've made the the orders, you know, he's in the truck, a lot of the time that he gets out, and he goes to various different locations, the whole world is basically being created by, by heretic in, in, in virtual space, and we've shot it with a combination of LED screens and green screen in numerous situations, as well, and it's looking fantastic. It's really quite wonderful what the material that I'm seeing at the moment. So that, to me, is a great example of elevating a fairly low budget, thriller, indie thriller, to a level where the visuals are ones you would associate with a very expensive, you know, studio movie, you know. And that, to me is an exciting success story already of heretic Foundation, and one we hope to keep building on we have numerous other projects, lining up that one is a World War Two, film set on a on a battleship, which again, you know, they wouldn't even consider doing it on the budget that they have. And in fact, they've tried to raise a larger budget and be now unable to, and it's the technology that were able to bring to it, that's a making the film actually achievable. You know, and that's really exciting world to be in.

Alex Ferrari 48:16
Now, when you say vert, and for a lot of people listening virtual reality virtual, it's never true, that virtual production. You know, when I think of virtual production, I think of the Mandalorian. And then the volume and stuff, have you if you created similar volumes, and using green screen, so you have a volume. And then you also do some elements in green screen as well. So it's a hybrid, if you will,

Alex Proyas 48:36
correct. That's right. Yeah, we heretic. We're currently building a LED volume, a large led volume with a, in cooperation with a with another company. And we've been doing mainly green screen, our studio has green screen. I mean, it's quite a small, small stage. I mean, our studio is really designed as an r&d stage. But we're building we've just done this one film in another volume, but we're building a dedicated led volume, it will be led and green screen, because it's the combination of the two that works so well. You know, some there are some things that are like Mandalorian LED screens are not actually that great at doing when you're when your scenes are very dark, there's a lot of blacking frame. There, it's not as not as good, you know, as a green screen can actually work a lot better. But, you know, it's certain things it's, you know, ideally you have both at your disposal, we have our our guys who are running the virtual sets in the middle between a green and an LED volume, and you literally move the cameras backwards and forwards, you know, depending on what shot is serviced by tech tech tech, do you know and that's ultimate. That's the ultimate goal and that yeah, that's what You are you're there for the duration of the production, you don't, right? That's

Alex Ferrari 50:03
your, that's your company move. That's your, you're just moving left or right, that's your company move in, that's how I mean honestly, that's happened for a filmmaker, I mean, anyone who's ever been out and you know, on location, and you're like, Oh, we only could do one company move today because we're in the middle of a desert, you know, but you know, but you could, um, this kind of production, you can do that. And a lot of things also in virtual production. I've had friends of mine who've worked on the Mandalorian. And you know, the press about, you know, you just put the camera and you shoot, to a certain extent that's true, but and I'd love to hear what you think. But there is cleanup work. There is seen you have to see the cleanup seems you got it. So there is it's not like you just shoot in the can you're done? Yes, you get a lot more done than you used to. But there is still a visual effects hand that's going to touch it and clean things up a little bit. Is that true?

Alex Proyas 50:51
Yes, that's very true. And you don't hear that from Mandel. Laurie bit the PR, Amanda Lauria makes it seem like it's, it's, it's a really easy to walk in the park, and let's not forget that they have huge budget. Like, I've put this together again, from my own bank account, at least up until this point, you know, and you know, it's very different to having you know, Disney and ILM behind you. But look, you know, I'm grateful to the Mandalorian team, because they've, they've made this, everyone goes ISO Mandalorian, you know, and they're all you know, it's created a whole sort of mini industry, and it's helped my company enormously, so very grateful to you all there a Mandalorian land. But this is not the, you don't need to do all that stuff to, to make a work as we've just proven on a very low budget movie, and we're continuing to prove its ingenuity a lot of its ingenuity. The but but, yes, to To be clear, there is a lot of cleanup work, but it's but you have to be clever about how you do it. Some shots work perfectly well. And other other shots as we say, you swing around in your on the green, and they will work better on green. And the one thing that you have to remember is that it's a double edged sword, having your having your dailies there done in the can on an LED screen, because if you haven't had the time in pre production to, to get your set your environment fully SPECT out the way you want it, you're stuck with it, you know, in the Mandalorians case, they're not because they can just replace it later on, you know, in our case, it's prohibitive to do that. So we have to make sure that we have it to a level of finish that we're happy to have baked in to the to the to the dailies, otherwise, we'll shoot it on grain. And that's our way of keeping costs down, you know, but you know, look, if you do it, right, if you if you do the right kinds of shots on le G, you shouldn't have to do any cleanup work afterwards, you know, it's it should be done, it is possible to bake it all in and get it all done. For example, in this short film that we've just that we're finishing at the moment, a lot of the stuff out, you know, in all the car stuff with a guy inside the car, outside the window is 100% LSG volume. Because there's so many shots to finish all those two composite all those shots in green are would have been really pro hippy expensive and expensive prospect. So we've only stripped out the shots at an absolutely essential that we do on green screen. There's quite a few of those, but it makes it a much more manageable thing. It's just on the Mandalorian they wouldn't care the Mandalorian they do it they go I didn't work out and we'll do it and you know, we'll do it the other way, you know, because they can afford to

Alex Ferrari 54:05
rotoscoped out the shot and and get up and do whatever and do whatever they want. No, it's it's it's pretty amazing technology. And yeah, I'm always I'm always fascinated by all that. And, you know, the thing that's also really interesting is a lot of people think that you have to do if your virtual production has to be this big sci fi world building thing. But no, you're the story you're talking about the film that you're talking about is not it might be genre and stuff but it's not a sci fi world creating dark city style project, which you know, something like reprojection this is basically just really nice rear projection. with with with being able to move the camera and the camera following the parallax on. But I can only imagine what Stanley Kubrick would do with this technology.

Alex Proyas 54:55
Yeah, well he liked he did it. I mean he did it with that's the funny thing about The Mandalorian claiming to have invented I don't know whether they ever did that other people claim that they claim this projection or direction. Yeah, it's been around since day one, you know, and, and look, the thing about virtual production is that what really is the key is not so much of the screen or whether it's led or green is the marrying a computer generated model. That's that to the to the live camera. And as you move your camera, the model will move accordingly. That is what the two production is. And in fact, I know exactly who invented that. And I can't say that it was me, but it was almost me because the first two films that were done using a very early version of, of video virtual production was was Spielberg's AI and my iRobot right now we're the first films to actually use the the technology we you know, at the time that we did iRobot I didn't know that this stuff actually had already been done that I was like, I had a scene with Will Smith running around 1000 robots and I didn't have anything real I only had wheel Smith and one robot which was used as a standard so I go How do we do this scene? How can I move my camera around and now what I'm seeing through these rows of robots you know that we put 1000 cut bits of cardboard our cardboard net cats or something. And they came up with this thing called encoders called encoder care which was the early rudimentary virtual production thing where we had had the model on on the stage my camera on a techno crane could move around town and I'd see this sort of you know, very rudimentary 3d model move as my camera moved and I was like Wow, this is awesome. This is incredible you know? Yeah. So that really was the origins of virtual production and then now that's been combined with as you say rescreen project a new form of risk group project right?

Alex Ferrari 57:17
Because when I robot was around the LEDs, not so much. Not that affordable. This big, this big was about $10,000 Yeah, it was all plasma back then. I hate this I still got my I still have a plasma TV from like 15 years ago and it still looks fantastic and it's still still rockin at 720 p Now one other thing I wanted to talk to you about a little birdie told me that you might be working on a series for dark city is that true?

Alex Proyas 57:52
I have no idea where you look I mentioned that to one to one person and on a podcast a bit like this and I mean it was great to see so many people picked it up as a story so much so much of the the sort of genre based you know industry picked it up as something to have note which is great it just show me that there's a lot of any kind of new there's a lot of still you know interest still strong there in the in the in the wings for for a dark city a continuation of the dark city story but of course you know, I mentioned way earlier than I should have were still with you know, I should have said and I'm trying to sell a dark city and I'm making a dark as opposed

Alex Ferrari 58:44
to like so so when is the streaming and what is coming out November

Alex Proyas 58:49
is it November people assume it's like it's happening already you've shot it it's been in the Can you just imposed I've had some yeah I've had so many actors applying to screen test and and writers applying to write episodes etc so this is kind of me saying Don't you know let's let's take a deep breath down guys and wait a moment before you know before I say anything too much more about it look the only thing because I like you Alex so much as you know the only thing I can say that I know knowing that's the caveat that where we're just where we're working it out at the moment we're not we don't have we're not we're not greenlit we're far from it. You know, we haven't I haven't even written any of it. Yeah, we're still working on our on our pitch on our onset, you know, but what I will say is, it is very much a continuation of the, the original movie. It's, it's not a re it's not a reboot, as a as a more more of a sequel to the original movie. So that's something that that maybe will, you know, is one bit of information that is make people would want to know about and you know I'm trying to I mean it is it's you know obviously in doing a TV series we have to appeal to a bunch of an audience that maybe don't even know about dark city they've got no idea of this film dark city and there's plenty of those people around but at the same time every year that goes pass more and more people are become dark city fans it you know it this has been going on since the first the original release so many people come have come to come to every year going wow we never knew this movie existed This is a great and become new fans you know so I'm also trying to create a story that that makes those people happy you know and be the bit is faithful to the original fans of the series and and works into what they would want to see you know so i think i think we're there I think we've come up with a with a concept that will work for for both sides of the spectrum and and also as I said bringing in you hopefully bring in new a new audience as well you know

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
well that's exciting news and I I want you to have that that Canvas to play with him to go visit that world because of such a wonderful and rich world and God I would love to see it so I wish you nothing but the best but everyone listening calm the hell down it's he's he's not in post everybody he's not in post in it already. It's not coming out for Christmas everyone needs to calm the hell down.

Alex Proyas 1:01:37
Sadly that's the case and look you know this also feeds into the technology that we've just been talking about because you know dark city was made at the time and I barely could afford it even then they didn't give me a huge budget but they gave me enough where I built the entire thing we had these massive sets built in is kind of aircraft hangar size space in Sydney we built the entire street that we kept reconfiguring much like the film was to service all our all our different scenes you know and you know obviously the The time has gone you know when you could do that on a film like that but now of course this new technology is is enabling me to make that world in an even better way I believe I don't have quite the fun on the set of hanging out on those in those cool spaces but beyond that, you know the virtual production gives you a world that looks every bit as great and again I'm not having to limit my imagination because even on something like this series which will hopefully be financed by you know a legitimate studio with the money to throw at it that that it necessitates that there's going to be a limit there I'm going to you know they're not going to let me go crazy but in the virtual world I can I can do whatever I want I can visualize it however I want to add and so I think it's the right time for continuing the visual aspect of dark city in a in a new in a new form you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:03:18
I have to ask you just out of curiosity when when you are going to pitch a show like this I obviously there's going to be a lot of concept art but would you create like a sizzle reel like using your technology going look this is what we can do kind of Robert Rodriguez did that with Sin City and and you're like when there's new like technology like Look guys, I know normally would cost $100 million, but we could do it for five. And this is what we could do and this is how we do it. Look what it looks like are you going are you planning on doing something like a little sizzle reel or something?

Alex Proyas 1:03:48
No wait because the movie is a sizzle reel. Right? So there's no real reason so so if there are any executives who have my fate in their hands I say to go watch it go and watch the movie you know right right. And you know look fortunately I have I'm I'm involved with some people who who are big fans on the original movie so so that's that's really that's really key. But they you know, yes. If it wasn't for that, that movie existing Absolutely. You know, that would be the The first thing to do. I've got a film called sister darkness that we are there we're trying to finance at the moment. That is we're doing just that with you know, we've created we've actually created a little, a little trailer and all that sort of stuff. And it's all virtual production. Just to show people that the kinds of the way it's going to look, you know, so So. Yeah, absolutely. It's nice having a studio at my fingertips for such things.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:55
Yeah. Very helpful. I've been I was in post for most of my Career and I love having the ability to just like oh yeah I got my VFX team I've got my post team I can just you know do whatever I want I never even on the budget that's so funny whenever I do a project but the budget line for for post I just never even because I use I'm like I'm gonna do the post I'm going to edit it I'm going to sorry Of course it's free I'm going to call I'm going to comment rate it I'm going to master it I'm going to output it for deliverables all that stuff so I never even think about even scheduling How much does that cost? Jesus Christ I've got a lot of value I should charge more for this. Now where it can people submit to video verse and submit their films,

Alex Proyas 1:05:37
it's very verse.com

Alex Ferrari 1:05:41
that's Vi Vi di verse vi

Alex Proyas 1:05:43
d i diverse yeah vt verse. I expect you you'll get a run it underneath

Alex Ferrari 1:05:50
me. I'll put it in the show notes. We'll put it in the show notes. As you do this, I will have my I will have my team if the team is listening the my patina as do it one more time to do one more time. So very, very verse city, the SATCOM makes Yeah, I'll make sure I'll make sure they do.

Alex Proyas 1:06:10
And yeah, so it's all self explanatory. I hope on if you go to their website, it explains exactly what what is required of you. And, yeah, please send us your films and, and, and we can do something great together. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:27
Alex, I appreciate you being on the show. Again, coming back. I appreciate everything you're doing with Vinnie verse. I love that you continue to take big swings at the play for everybody. And you also have a fantastic first name as well. So thank you, my friend for doing all that you do. And thanks again for coming on the show my friend.

Alex Proyas 1:06:48
Thank you Alex. It's been a pleasure again and hopefully we'll do at least one more time,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:53
at least a few that when you when the dark city dark city series releases, you'll come back and then we talk about it that Thank you. Thank you, my friend.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 342: Misadventures in Raising Money & Getting Your Film Made with Alex Lehmann

November 24, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Alex Lehmann is the writer, director, and producer of “Acidman” starring Dianna Agron and Thomas Haden Church. He also directed the highly anticipated Black List feature, “Meet Cute,” produced by Weed Road, and starring Pete Davidson and Kaley Cuoco.

A narrative and documentary filmmaker, Lehmann’s films include Netflix’s dramatic comedies “Paddleton,” starring Mark Duplass and Ray Romano, which premiered at Sundance in 2019, and “Blue Jay,” his narrative feature debut, starring Sarah Paulson and Mark Duplass. It premiered at TIFF in 2016 to critical acclaim. His HBO docu-series, On Tour with Asperger’s Are Us is an extrapolation of his original feature doc Asperger’s Are Us.

Lehmann’s work explores the themes of selfless love, friendship, and how a little vulnerability can connect us all.

His new film is ACIDMAN.

Maggie (Dianna Agron) arrives at a small, run-down house in the middle of nowhere to find it defaced by big orange letters reading ACIDMAN and learns that this is the locals’ nickname for her reclusive father (Thomas Haden Church). After a decade apart, Maggie’s offhand explanation for her visit is that she just wanted to check in on him, but this doesn’t ring true considering how difficult he was to find. The two awkwardly want to get to know one another (Dad seems more comfortable talking through his dog Migo, or through Bobby, Maggie’s childhood sock puppet friend), but are at the same time scared about what increasing familiarity will bring.

After Dad reluctantly brings her on one of his nighttime outings, Maggie realizes that his obsession with UFOs and communicating with extraterrestrial beings has only intensified over the years. She struggles to understand him, his single-mindedness and deteriorating mental health, all the while with her own life-changing news to share. Letting their relationship ebb and flow through anger, silly jokes, tender gestures, and sadness, director Alex Lehmann leads the film in a beautiful meditation on the cyclical nature of parenthood and the longing for connection.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome back to the show returning champion, Alex Lehmann. How you doing, Alex?

Alex Lehmann 1:45
Thanks for having me back.

Alex Ferrari 1:47
Thanks for coming back. Well, I mean, you're one of you one of the OG's here in the film, also you are in the oldest episode. The first time you were on the show you were promoting a film called Blue Jay. I forgive me, I don't remember the episode, but I think it was in the hundreds. We're now closing in on episode 600. That's huge. It's insane. I appreciate that. It's insane. It's definitely a hustle. As you can tell by the branding.

Alex Lehmann 2:13
You have shirts you have Whoa, live whatever that is. You've got it's everywhere.

Alex Ferrari 2:20
It's part of my life, sir. I don't have a tattoo yet. But that's it. That's next, please. But listen, man, I was telling you before we got on, man, I'm so happy for you, man. You've done. You've done so well. I've had so many things. I've had the pleasure of talking to a lot of filmmakers over the years. And you and I've met we've hung out a little bit. And and it's just remarkable how your career has progressed. Because a lot of people who I've talked to they don't they don't progress that way. So your your your success story. And that's why I wanted to have you back on the show to like, let everybody know, like, you know, he's he's done good. He's doing good. He's moving along. He's telling stories. He's building a career for himself. So it's, it's a pleasure just to be able to witness it from that point from when you like kind of were first beginning, getting your feet off the ground with an amazing film, by the way with Mark Duplass. And Paul and samples and

Alex Lehmann 3:17
But I also talk about all the failures in between?

Alex Ferrari 3:20
Well, yeah, of course, after the first one that look, let's let's, let's keep it real alates after the first movie, Hollywood just brought the dump truck full of cash dumped in front of you. And then anything you wanted to do, they just said, Alex, name it and how much all you have is time and money and any star you want. So that's how it's as been. So yeah, I know, I understand. There's been I'm sure, for every one movie that you get made. There's 30 that get don't get made or really close to getting rid of the money drops out of the actor drops out or, Oh, this doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. So of course a struggle.

Alex Lehmann 3:53
Can I say, good? It's a hustle.

Alex Ferrari 3:57
You owe me 15 cents or so. So for people who didn't listen, I had the pleasure of listening to our other episodes. Can you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and how you got started in the business? Sure. Absolutely.

Alex Lehmann 4:10
Yeah, I was a cameraman and a cinematographer for a solid 10 years more than 10 years. And that was just my source of income and my career path was was being a DP and even though I'd gone to film school thinking I was going to direct a kind of, I want to say got sidetracked but I'd found this passion of cinematography and it also paid the bills and and then I did get a little bit antsy at one point I felt like I needed to make my own stuff. So I was writing some pretty bad scripts and and then I made a documentary called Asperger's or us and I connected with with Mark Duplass on that one. And he helped me get that one, you know, into festivals and get it out in the world. And then he and I started, you know, becoming collaborators on a couple of things like, like Blue Jay and, and Paddington. So that's kind of you know, is I kind of In the chutes and ladders of at all, I feel like you know, being completely honest, I feel like I kind of hit that big ladder. Your audience knows what Chutes and Ladders is right?

Alex Ferrari 5:08
That's not that's an obscure, sir, you are old, sir, you are old. It's not, my audience doesn't know about no joke.

Alex Lehmann 5:18
I got the magic star. I don't know, pick whatever you want

Alex Ferrari 5:24
You won, you won the lottery, you want to scratch off lottery ticket,

Alex Lehmann 5:27
The opportunity that I got was was really big. And you know, I mean, the lesson I share with anybody is like, the opportunities will come and you don't know in what form and sometimes it's a huge opportunity, sometimes a small opportunity, you can't really control them, but you have to be ready for them if they show up. And, you know, I kind of feel like I lucked out as far as the timing of hat being ready and having the right stuff at the right time for for when a guy like Mark Duplass said, you know, I'm going to open the door for you.

Alex Ferrari 5:56
It's interesting for people that don't know the full story, because we're kind of glazing over how you were you were you were a camera on a show, forgot the name of the week, exactly. The league and Mark was on it. And as every independent film any movie about an independent film being made, there's generally the DP or the grip or someone with a script in the back of their pocket that hands it to the star, which you didn't do. But he heard that you had made this documentary. Yeah. And the timing of that. It's exactly what it is. It's luck. Right place, right time LED product. If you made that film Three years later, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't have that connection. So if those stars aligned, and then Mark said, Hey, let's take your movie out into the world. Oh, and by the way, I love I just liked hanging out with you working with you. Let's collaborate on another project. And then that kind of starts that off. But what is interesting about your story, Alex, and please forgive me for blowing a little bit of smoke up here, but not too much. I'm gonna try to keep it to a minimum, don't worry, we'll bring you back down crashing back down. But the thing that's fascinating is that I know a lot of filmmakers who get those, those kinds of lottery ticket moments with those opportunities with those kind of either big stars or people who open the doors for them. But many of them don't stay in the door. Many of them don't have the chops to stay in the door. Many of them don't have the personalities to stay in the door. Because you can get a shot. You know it you've seen I'm sure you have a lot of friends that get gay possibly out of a lottery ticket situation, get a shot, shot, but they either blow it, their egos get in the way their personalities get in the way something happens. That it's that's the end of that's the peak, but you kept you kept that get that thing going. And people were like, you know, I want to keep working with I want to keep working with Alex, I want to keep doing this. So that's a lesson for everybody listening just because you get if someone opens the door, you're lucky enough for someone to open the door. That's when the work begins. That's not where the work ends. Do you agree with that?

Alex Lehmann 7:52
Yeah, yeah, I would. I would agree with that. And I would say that, for every success, you have you, there'll be some more opportunities that happened. And like, did you get led into the party? To a certain extent? Yes. But I don't know just to mix metaphors. Like I think every party ends and then there's going to be a new party, and then you got to get into that one. And you do have to keep earning your way back. And it's ethics I do. And most of my friends like we find ourselves constantly having to re earn our you know, our worth, so there isn't usually that one thing that changes everything

Alex Ferrari 8:26
Is as the as the incomparable Miss Janet Jackson says, What have you done for me lately? That's basically that's basically the town. It's like, great. You Have you won an Oscar fantastic.

Alex Lehmann 8:39
Not what it should be, though. You know, I, it sucks. Because I'll be honest, that there's, there have been times where I feel like, you know, why, you know, why can't I just get the next thing made? I've just proven that, you know, I'm consistently making movies that are getting good reviews, and that people love and bla bla bla, and yeah, you know, I, I mean, I'd say two things. First of all, the landscape is constantly changing. And I'm sure you've had a bazillion episodes that have talked about, you know, the streaming and the whatever, everything, pandemic, everything has changed. And like what audiences want that's constantly changing. So, a there's that. And so what you might be good at is in for a moment, and then and then it's not, like, you have to reinvent yourself. That's, that's cool. That's fine. And the other thing is, this town is full of such talented people. There's so many there's not enough room for us all to constantly be making all the things and and so the way I look at it is like, you know, I get something made and it's fantastically so you know, it's fantastic for us. The project might not be fantastic, but it is who knows. But But we, we celebrate we feel great and people watch it, and then it's back to square one. You get thrown on this pile of billions of talented filmmakers that's maybe maybe not billions, maybe just Millions I don't know, but so many talented filmmakers and it's back to square one where we're all trying to get something made again. And that's okay. The meritocracy does exist to a certain extent. And, you know, if if we were if we were benefiting from like our past successes too much, that would also be leaving the door closed completely for for that, that filmmaker who's listening right now who hasn't made their first thing. So I like the fact that the door gets to stay open a little bit for them to

Alex Ferrari 10:29
Absolutely, because you need it. I mean, that's, that's the business, the business needs to be refreshed with new blood and, and all that kind of stuff. Now, I want to ask, you know, you've directed a handful of features, what, in your, in your opinion, is the biggest challenge in directing an indie or, you know, non studio or just like, you know, non 100 billion dollar franchise? Kind of film? What are these challenges you the biggest challenge? You think?

Alex Lehmann 10:56
I mean, I think the biggest thing is getting it made, I still think that's harder than then making it. I don't know, if that'll ever change.

Alex Ferrari 11:04
You're right. To a certain extent, I mean, unless you're, unless you're playing a different league, where the movie is gonna get made, regardless if you're on here or not. That's a different conversation. But for most filmmakers, that's not the conversation.

Alex Lehmann 11:18
Well, because I mean, it's pretty messed up. If you think about it, you're trying to convince somebody to make something that doesn't exist that's never existed before exactly in that form. And they're asking you in that room, or on the zoom. So what is this like? And so you're trying to convince them to spend a lot of money to make something that's never existed before, but they don't have the imagination that you have, because they're not you. And so they don't exactly understand what it is you're trying to make. And yet you have to promise them that, you know, it will exist, you don't know exactly what it is, but it's going to be this thing that is just out in the ether right now. It's it's, it's not like building, I can't show you the blueprints of Vegas, I can show you the blueprints. But you know, everybody knows the difference between script to screen. That's why we have reviewers. That's why we don't, you know, we don't finish with reviewing scripts like that, though the work is only getting started. And, and so I think there's a lot of fear and uncertainty. And so trying to convince people that this is the right thing to be made, and it's going to be artistically valid, and probably financially has to be valid as well. Those are those are some pretty serious hurdles.

Alex Ferrari 12:30
Now, since you, you've been around the block a little bit, you've got a little shrapnel in you from the business over the years. Is there something with a limp? You walk? Yeah, we all walk with a limp, or some of us walk with more than just that. But is is there anything you wish? There's that one thing that you wish that someone would have told you at the beginning of this conversation? Have you tried to be a filmmaker to just go hey, man, keep an eye out for this thing.

Alex Lehmann 12:58
I wish somebody had maybe told me that indie financing is fickle, and maybe most people that say they have money don't actually have money. No. I'm naive. I really am. I'm sorry.

Alex Ferrari 13:14
When someone tells you when someone tells you I have I got $100,000 I could put into this. You believe them?

Alex Lehmann 13:19
Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna go through the details of my latest films because they got made and you know, at the end of the day, I feel very lucky that they did and the rest is is the rest and the more I share the specifics with friends, the more they tell me there's similar stories and I feel like the whole the whole world of indie financing is a very comical place it's a euphemism comical but but but I got lucky because my first couple narrative features were 50 plus right like Mark was instantly market if we're making the movie together he was starring in it he was you know, able to pay for it. And he had a distribution deal with Netflix it was so turnkey and so it wasn't until acid man which I you know specifically set out to make on my own my own it was such a personal story and I felt like I want to produce this myself and you just really just take the full ownership so raising raising finances for that when I wish I'm glad I learned what I learned but I wish somebody maybe had given me a crash course or two before before I headed out into that way it is

Alex Ferrari 14:25
The only two words I can tell you sir verifiable funds. The two magic words and indie finance verifiable funds,

Alex Lehmann 14:34
They wrote it down on a napkin napkin with a crayon and that was good enough for me.

Alex Ferrari 14:44
Yeah, for everybody listening. There are multiple episodes about film financing on the show on the podcast, you can go back into the archives, but two words verifiable funds, but but here's why.

Alex Lehmann 14:56
Maybe that doesn't matter that you have those episodes and why may He doesn't matter that like I wish somebody would have told me is we, we believe so bad or should do, of course you want to believe. And I've got friends in situations where they've come across some shady financing, and then they try to tip off the next person who might get tied into that shady financing say like, don't work with this person, their money's not real. And the response nine times out of 10 is, yeah, but he's our best shot. So we're gonna go with him anyways. It's like, it's like, you're like, don't you know, it's like don't get don't get in the train is heading off a cliff and somebody goes, Oh, I kinda want to go somewhere.

Alex Ferrari 15:38
I you know, and this is this is a deeper conversation because I was having a conversation with this film distributor the other day. And he was asking him straight up, I was like, why are filmmakers always getting taken advantage of and film distribution, and this goes through film financing as well. And he's like, because they want to believe

Alex Lehmann 15:57
Because we're not business majors because we're not even. But not even that, but not even that part.

Alex Ferrari 16:02
Even if you're smart enough, cuz there's a lot of smart people I know in the business school got taken, because they want to believe because either if you're if the beginning of this situation or at the end, so film finances at the beginning, film distribution is at the end, both times there's a lot of pressure on you to make something happen. You want to get your movie made. And then in film distribution, you're so exhausted that you believe anything that anybody tells you like, Oh, someone loves me. Someone loves my work that I've been spending the last two years for sure. There's no mg. I don't need it. I don't need any money upfront. 25 years? Sure. I'll sign that. And okay, great. And oh, 5000 $5 million. Expense cap. Great. That's fantastic. But you want to believe so that's something that it's it's hard. It's even when even if you know this information, when you're in it's kind of like being in a bad relationship? You know, you're just like, I know, she I know she's not good for me. Yeah. But damn, I can't quit her. I could change her. I could change her, I could change it. I can, I can make I can make I can make her better. I could change her. Yeah, that doesn't work out in film financing or in full distribution.

Alex Lehmann 17:07
But don't you think that probably the shady people that are pretending to have money but are really out there to like, you know, whatever, screw us over. Don't you think that they're also saying like, I could change? I could, I could be a better person. I really gotta have that money that I promised the filmmaker?

Alex Ferrari 17:26
Well, I think I think those people are I think there are people who do go out there with malicious intent. I think other people truly believe that they're just they want to play the role of the high roller that I want to be in show business kind of vibe. And they, they might have the intention to get you the money, but they just don't have the capability of doing so. But they just kind of roll the dice and like, Oh, I'm just gonna say I have the money so I can play I can go along this train and have these conversations and pretend that I'm a filmmaker or a producer or finance or so on.

Alex Lehmann 17:59
We're all doing that though. Right? Like, like the very fabric of filmmaking is we're trying to get people to believe in something that's totally made up. And we're taking them on a journey and we're saying this is this is a story worth now gather out everybody this is this is allowed to take two hours of your time and it's gonna be worth it's it's it's there's there's something romantic and that and I do think that I mean, I don't know I think that probably like, like the real scammers are probably another business is because there's there's more money being made Scammon in in

Alex Ferrari 18:32
Medicare. Yeah. scamming Medicare is a lot better, more lucrative and scamming independent filmmakers.

Alex Lehmann 18:40
Yeah, so I think I just I think my heart goes out even to like the the indie film scammers because like at the heart of it, and you touched on this, like they want to be part of making movies and like, it's like I was gonna have to scam somewhere most of all scam here and make movies because as a kid, I always wanted to scan and make movies.

Alex Ferrari 19:00
So just a disclaimer, everybody I do not I do not suggest you scan Medicare or any independent filmmakers. That's not part of what we're saying here. I'm just just using them as an example. Now, I wanted to ask you something else, because you have been a cinematographer for most of your career. And most of the films you've worked on, you've been the DP. Yeah. But this one you did it. So what was it like acid man? What was it like not having the controls of the lighting and the camera? And did you let loose? did you how did that work for you as someone who's done because as for me, I've been editing all my life anytime I've ever worked with an editor. It's an adjustment. It takes a minute.

Alex Lehmann 19:42
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, you know how often I also wasn't the cinematographer. So that was the first one but I I'll be honest, I struggled on piloten to let go of those reins and the DP I had. He had he had shot second unit for me on bluejay when I did that myself, so there was you know a little But first there and he also had, he was very patient in, in, in my inability to completely like go on pallets. And I will say that the first day of acid man was still tricky and I was still like kind of gripping onto that hat a little bit. And my cinematographer John Matousek. He, he really got me there, this was a, this was a cool experience for me, because it was the first time that that just and is very early on in the filming process. I just started seeing what he was doing. And I started trusting and you know, I think it became clear to me that we were going to approach things differently, but I loved, you know, the end results, and that I just needed to trust, you know, the process until I would get to see the end result. Because, you know, otherwise, like, instantly just looking at, like, where somebody puts a light and like, well, that's how I put the light. It's totally subjective, but you know, to keep my mouth shut as both a I think a very good collaborator, but also a control freak. And that's, I think you're supposed to have a little bit of both of those to direct. I was really excited to be able to go funny story about John, he literally shot my first short film in college. That's how long I've known him. And we didn't you know, we he went out to Nashville for a while and was shooting commercials and, you know, was raising a family out there. So he didn't come back to LA till just a couple years ago. And we reconnected he was saying, like, I want to get back in the indie feature game, you know, move moving to LA with my family, I really want to make movies again. And that's how I reached out to him for for acid man. And, and, you know, he was fantastic. And and I've you know, I've been using them since. And it's it's so freeing not to have to think like a DP much anymore. We can start the conversations and the shorthand. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 21:54
I felt the same way as like, when you like, I see a unassembled cut of something I did. I was like, Oh, I didn't have to spend six hours to go to assemble, cut done. Oh, that kind of feels nice. I just would come in and, and tweak, oh, that's feels a little bit better.

Alex Lehmann 22:10
But here's the good thing, whether it's editing or cinematography, photography a little less, because you you only have certain amount of time and resources. Sure. But to say, you know, I've got something in mind. But before I take us down that path, what are you thinking? Let me see where you're thinking. It's like you only have one opportunity to really see how your, your collaborator artists sees things before you. You know, smother them with your vision, and ask them to like, try to understand what it is you want. And there's a curiosity I have when we have the time. It's like, what did you see when you read the script? Or, you know, what are you feeling in this moment, because I know what I'd like to do, but I might be able to learn something from you. And you know, as much time as we have and, you know, as much exploring as we can do, I'd love to do a little discovery before we go down a path. And by the way, I might still say like, that's really interesting. And let's shoot that. But then the shot I really need that's been in my mind's eye. Since the first day I wrote this is the shot over here. And you know, we'll we'll get both of them figured out later. But sometimes I abandoned sometimes I said, That's cool. That's, that's more interesting than what I was going to do. And thank you for challenging me.

Alex Ferrari 23:22
And that takes time to allow yourself to be confident enough in your own skin, comfortable enough in your own skin to allow that the ego starts to pull back a little bit in you and you as you get a little bit older, you've been in around town a little bit longer and doing this, you realize your like, best idea wins man, best.

Alex Lehmann 23:42
You're right. It's all it's all about ego or hopefully lack of ego, for sure.

Alex Ferrari 23:48
Now you've you've had the pleasure of working with some amazing actors, some some some legends, you know, Ray Romano Duplass. Now you've worked with Thomas Haden Church in an acid man. How do you approach working with actors of that those that kind of caliber? Because I can imagine it might be intimidating, working with someone you might have, like with Raman. Or, you know, having him working with him. Ray Romano, not Raymond. But Ray Romano, but like working with someone like that, that you might have been watching him as you grew up, like how do you approach the relationship of a director actor and that's an area

Alex Lehmann 24:29
Where I like to start out, you know, exchanging some really vulnerable information about each other so that we both feel you know, and then I blackmail them.

Alex Ferrari 24:41
For the great technique, guys, great pictures, photos, work, photos, work to get photos.

Alex Lehmann 24:48
You were in their trust, and then you weaponize it against them. No, the first parts true. A, I would say more even more importantly, I mean when you when you ask yourself, especially if it's somebody is a little more legendary who's been doing who's been doing so much, who you know is getting 10 offers a week. You know, Sarah Paulson, Ray Romano, Thomas Haden Church, you have to ask yourself first like, Okay, why? Why are they why did they choose this project? And and I think it's a really fair thing to both ask yourself maybe the reps and ask them, what is it that you're that draws them to the project and really make sure that you're honoring that, like, if there's something that they came here specifically for, as long as it falls within the scope of what you're trying to make with the film, make sure there's there's room for that if, if raise like I always, you know, comedic and I want to make sure that like I have the opportunity to really, you know, show the world my dramatic chops. Don't make them say a bunch of Dick and fart jokes, like let them you know, really build it around those those moments that he wants. And in return, he'll, you know, he'll give you the goods and and as far as Thomas goes, you know, I wanted to understand why he was drawn to this and, and and understand what, you know what, what excites him? Because obviously, the paydays on these smaller films is not what makes these people leave their home when they made all that 90s TV money.

Alex Ferrari 26:12
I mean, listen, listen, Thomas Thomas just got off of Spider Man, the latest Spider Man. So I'm sure he's okay.

Alex Lehmann 26:18
He's okay. But you know, but he the things he did for our film that he you know, he's willing to put up with, you know, the lack of trailers, the limitations that we have, there's obviously something there. And, you know, for him, it's, he was finding the character of acid man really relatable. He was, honestly, you know, he was, he was saying, like, I'm becoming more of an acid man myself all the time, which, you know, for your listeners, I should say, this, this characters, you know, he's a cluesive very intelligent man, but a reclusive guy who lives in the small town and is kind of he just kind of keeps to himself and he tinkerers, you know, he's got some of his own hobbies, and some of his own his own interests and beliefs. And he's maybe not very, he's definitely not understood by by the town or really, by anyone. He's just kind of minding his own business. And, and, you know, Thomas had been, I mean, the pandemic didn't hurt, but Thomas felt like he'd been living in his little ranch house a lot lately, just not not feeling as motivated to connect with people and, and started to like, feel that distance to grow. And he was saying, like, what, what's that about? Why am I comfortable with this? And like, is this going to continue like, like, is this pattern going to continue where like, maybe I stopped returning phone calls completely, at some point, let me explore these feelings with the character of acid man. So you know, making the room for Thomas to explore those those elements, that was really important. And then adapting to his process was really important. And so he loves to find the character, you know, everything that's beneath the page. And so we had so many long phone calls it himself and Diana Aegon, who plays his daughter, the three of us had, like, you know, on the weekly just like maybe two or three phone calls that would last a couple hours each and this went on for months. And we just really dug beneath what was you know, the script and found these characters and that fits my improv process anyways, but it was really about like, this is this is what makes Thomas excited is like building out a character and fleshing him out. I mean, it's, it's easy for me to give that when that's something I want as well. But But yeah, I would say to answer your question in a roundabout way, you figure out what it is they want you make sure that they get to have it. That's why they showed up.

Alex Ferrari 28:41
Now, can you tell me how acidman you knew from SMA came to life?

Alex Lehmann 29:11
Yeah, so that's that script I've had since we were taking blue J on tour promoting blue J. It was, yeah, this is a it's a very personal story. It's something that I started writing, you know, way before Pendleton and I don't really think I was ever going to make it certainly not after paddles. And it just kind of felt like maybe the opportunity had come and gone for for this movie. And the character of acid man, the name acid man, there's actually this guy, you know, in the small town where I grew up his he was probably schizophrenic. But, but you know, like the kids had a nickname for this guy who walked around the town and he lived with his parents. He's probably in his 30s and they would like throw eggs at his house and spray paint stuff and just harass him and call him acid man and mythology was, you know, he gotten a bad acid trip and never came back? And I think a lot of towns have their own acid man, right? Like, I usually like everything, you know, people go like, Oh, yeah, we had Charlie on a lawnmower, we had, you know, our guy dressed up like Abraham Lincoln would walk around. And, and I was always really curious about that, that man when I was young, and about how, what his relationship was with our town, like, you know, we, this is weird to me that like, we could just write somebody off and kind of harassment even the adults call them, the walking man, it's just felt very, I think we fell short of really respecting that person. And and I think probably loneliness and you know, searching for connection or themes that have kind of been throughout all of my films. And and so I was I was always kind of connected to that character. And then the ultimate question of like, what if you're estranged from your parents or your father and you reconnect with your father who used to be this brilliant scientist, really intelligent man does this, you knew him as one person, and then you reconnect with them, and he's become the acid man of his town right there. Good. And so I think some of that's obviously just exploring the aging, you know, our parents and who they become and who will become one day.

Alex Ferrari 31:22
Yeah, that's, that I was telling you earlier, I was, as I was watching it, it was connecting with me on a whole other level. Because, you know, when you're 20, and you watch a film like this, you like, that's kind of and this or that. But when you're, you know, I'm getting close to 50. I'm like, you could say that word, but I have a few years away still. But you know, I'm getting to that age, and you just start thinking about things a lot differently, you start thinking about life differently. Where am I going to be in 20 or 30 years, you definitely have more behind you than you do ahead of you. That's a very strange place to be as a person, I think they do call it a midlife crisis, though. I'm not getting a Corvette anytime soon. But, and I love my wife. But, but it was really interesting, the way I really attached myself to not only the acid man as a character, but the daughter, and seeing her father through his eyes, and I, and I have my parents still so you start looking at them and who they were when they were when you were there, a young man or a young, you know, oh, boy, little boy, a little girl, and who you thought they were and who you who they become later in life. And it's, it's fascinating. And then I started thinking about what my daughters are gonna look at me in 20 or 30 years, like it's crazy podcasting, filmmaking guy who made some movies and hung out with some stars, or did some this and, or did that and like, and then like, and now look at him, just living off all that crazy podcast money. But but it was just very fascinating. It was really, I mean, again, a hit me at the right place. I'm your demographic, sir. So it was it was really touching.

Alex Lehmann 32:59
I appreciate that. Yeah, I think it's interesting to explore those Blurred Lines, because you don't, there's no day that you just say like, alright, you know, I was a child, and you were an adult, you know, to your parents, you know, you don't say there's no day where you say, Okay, you're no longer the parent, and I'm no longer the child because I too, am an adult. You know, and we don't say that to our kids, either. So it just kind of you so at some point, you're a child, and you're a parent. So that's weird, right? Like, how can you be both? But I mean, you are lucky you like you are, you're a dad, but you're, you're a son as well. And, and it's no secret that at some point, we lose a little bit of either either faculty or just, like, some strength in life, you know, as we age, or at least we don't necessarily have the same qualities and strengths that that our society maybe, right, virtue, you know, honor, right, so, so respect as much and so there's this kind of softening of where older people go into and what how do you say that? How do you say, like, at some point, like, well, you're my one point, you know, you said, My, you my parent, I look up to nobody really young, you say like, you're my parent, your got your, there's nothing wrong with you, you could do no wrong. And then there's everything in between. And then we get to a certain age and we're like, Oh, my God, my parent can't, is incapable of anything. And and that's a horrible feeling, you know, to try to somehow tie this same person who is a God to you, as this person who now needs help with everything. And so I think acid man to certain extent is, is an exploration of that and trying not to rush into pity or, you know, write resentment for the things that we don't understand and also just honoring the fact that those connections never never Go like to a certain expense that you'll be your, your parents child, no matter how old you are,

Alex Ferrari 35:06
Oh, my, my kids will always be my kids, I don't care how old they get, I'm gonna feel successful they get, I don't care how big they get, it doesn't matter, I don't care if they have kids themselves, they will always be my little bit like, girls, it's just, you can't look at it differently. Just the same way. My parents say the same thing to me. You know, there's, I'm like, I'm a grown ass man. She's like, you're still a little kid I grew up I raised. And it's you just, you know, until you're a parent, you don't get it. You might intellectually but when you actually see a child, or if you have, you know, children in your life in some way, shape or form, you start to understand that a little bit differently, it's, it was a meditation in, in parenthood, to say the least, this project was really, really cool, brother.

Alex Lehmann 35:49
Thank you. I appreciate that said if there's one other theme that I could share, and I don't think it's a spoiler alert because it happens early in the film that we'll probably have to mention anyways. But but so this character, you know, acid man who is really referred to just as dad in the film, because he's, he's digress, dad, estranged father, his name is Lloyd. And he he has this obsession with UFOs he's got these c's, these blinking lights out in the sky. And, you know, he just really feels connected to them. But he is a believer in this stuff. And you know, I just the other the other thought really in in, in writing this was like, what if you're trying to like reconnect, or just connect with your parents and like, now they're into, you know, Q Anon, or whatever it is that they're into, and you're like, how the hell do I reconcile the differences in beliefs and opinions that I have with this person that I love and respect, but like, I don't know how to talk about that. You know what, I don't want to make a political film and I don't want to like piss anybody off. Like Q Anon, although it kind of feels like it's gone away.

Alex Ferrari 36:53
It's, it's fine. We can we can move on, sir. Okay, um,

Alex Lehmann 36:57
I should have checked with you first. Are we are we good?

Alex Ferrari 36:59
I believe in Q. And any day now? No, I'm joking. Whatever. It is cute. I heard it here first. Listen, whenever people want to believe it's up to them. I can count.

Alex Lehmann 37:12
Yeah. And that, you know, and that's, that's, I guess that's really what what the film is about, to a certain extent is like it whatever you want to believe that doesn't hurt anybody. And that, you know, and that doesn't cause harm, like those those kinds of beliefs. Like, I could just ridicule you. I mean, we have a paint we have opinions of everything and like, you know, extreme opinions of everything. It's all we do. And and so, for me, it's an exercise to show patients with someone who believes in something supernatural that doesn't have any like, you know, evidence.

Alex Ferrari 37:46
Exactly. Well, obviously, but we did see the the congressional hearing so UFOs obviously, large aren't real. They're there. We've seen videos now

Alex Lehmann 37:54
I want them to be real.

Alex Ferrari 37:55
I hope we all do we have seen the filmmaker you out you watch that you want that situation. Listen, regardless of if UFOs I do believe that this is just my personal belief that in this giant universe, there has to be some life somewhere. Have they visited? I don't know. I just don't know. But logic dictates that this billions and billions and billions of planets out there probably something happens something's got to be there. Something's got some some sort of organism somewhere, even if it's something has to be living somewhere else in this universe. But I don't eat cheese

Alex Lehmann 38:31
roasting marshmallows in my backyard tonight. Really, I do.

Alex Ferrari 38:34
Thank you, Steven Spielberg. But it's but it's so true. But it's really fascinating too. Because that concept of not being able to connect and you did it very eloquently, too, because UFOs is just one of those things, you're just like, fine. So it's not a political statement. But being able to connect with someone you love, whose blood who has wildly different views on certain things. And it could be something as Madonna, the Dinah, Madonna can't say the word as a data.

Alex Lehmann 39:07
Yeah, Madonna, Madonna

Alex Ferrari 39:08
Madonna,

Alex Lehmann 39:08
No polarizing these this

Alex Ferrari 39:10
No, no, no. Benign, like, believing in UFOs or not, because that hurts really nobody, generally speaking. But when it's something very deep, either either in the religious world, or in political world, or whatever it is, it's so difficult to connect with someone you love, because you still love them, regardless of their beliefs, and where they work because they weren't there maybe 30 years ago. So I think you you danced that line so eloquently and beautifully in the film, that you said what you needed to say about that idea, without really, really stepping on anyone's toes unless you have our lovers.

Alex Lehmann 39:46
Right. Well, I appreciate I mean, even though you have been, I think at the end of the season, we don't know if that was a US or not. But But or maybe we do I'm not going to tell you exactly. The movies about women that I didn't give anything away. But But I would say that that I think maybe the reason it works in the film is because I wasn't putting it on anybody else. I was really putting it on myself to find more empathy, and compassion and curiosity for the people who have different beliefs than I do. And instead of even just saying, like, well, I don't believe that, but good for you to say like, Well, I mean, what do I know, I'm just another person. And you know, we're all wrong about plenty of things. So let me be a little more curious. And let me respect this. And let me figure out why this is relevant to you. And when you hear someone talk about whether it's their religion, or or, you know, a spiritual belief they have, or ghosts or aliens or anything, you listen to them enough, and they do start talking about something that is like a little bit more grounded and more personal anyways. Like, if you got this great story, when we were when we were scouting for acid, man, we were on this, like, you know, mountain top, overlooking, you know, the Oregon Rogue Valley. And, and this is like, random guy just like walks up on us. And he's like, Oh, you guys making you're the ones making the movie here. It's about UFOs or something, or like I, you know, didn't want to talk too much. But he said, Yeah. And, and he starts telling us about, you know, the UFO sightings that he's had. And, you know, just you could, you could at that point validly say that, Oh, here we go, like, this guy is gonna, you know, be, but but, you know, we just kept listening. And first of all, His stories were really entertaining and made me want to see what he had seen. And the second thing is, I don't know, where he starts talking about the passing of his father who his father had died just a few years ago, and was telling us about how he still talks to his dad every single day, and that he's never really brought that up to anybody. And I'm thinking like, holy shit, he just used UFOs as a conduit to talk about his feelings about his deceased father. And he's the guy who's maybe I don't know him, but he's maybe not as emotionally vulnerable and capable of talking about that stuff all the time. And I don't think UFOs were created in his mind or a substitution for those feelings. But they certainly made it easier to talk about certain things. And so all of a sudden, it was this really generous connection that we had.

Alex Ferrari 42:19
You know, it's interesting that a lot of people get so caught up with everything that's going on right now or in our lives right now, in 100 years, what does it matter? Just be kind to people, and try to help people as best you can. And that's the way I look at things like, at every moment in time, humanity thought they had everything figured out.

Alex Lehmann 42:39
It's not till next week.

Alex Ferrari 42:44
At every moment, there was a moment where the earth was the center of the universe that was flat. Sorry, Flat Earthers. You know, there was there's always everyone's got to figure it out. So yeah, when you understand that, like, yeah, maybe we've got a couple things figured out. Maybe we don't maybe in 100 years, or in 500 years, they're gonna be looking back at us and like, can you believe the barbaric 2000s 20s Oh, my God. Crazy.

Alex Lehmann 43:09
Well, I do think for me get back. I'll just get on the soapbox. For one second, I do think they're probably in 100 years, people are gonna say, the shit that they allowed with homelessness. Oh, it's gonna be the, you know, it's gonna, you know, the, the way we look at at certain things that happened a couple 100 years ago. Today, I think people are gonna look back and say like, wow, they just didn't give a shit about all those people. That's weird. But hey, you know, it was the Dark Ages. It was the it was the early internet ages. Like they didn't know how to be people. They weren't humans. They were.

Alex Ferrari 43:46
They were, they were getting all this information. But it was all bad information. And anyone could write any information they wanted to on the internet.

Alex Lehmann 43:52
Basically, cavemen they were still with podcasts.

Alex Ferrari 43:55
They were cavemen with podcasts, obviously.

Alex Lehmann 43:58
Yeah. But I think, you know, to the, to the point of like, of like, yeah, what does it all matter in 100 years? It? There's obviously there's a lot of fighting going on now. And I mean, it's been going on for a while, but Sure, man, I don't know, I just feels like a lot of people are wanting to feel heard right now. And there's so much noise and I guess we're contributing to it, which, you know, now I'm doing interviews. I'm making more noise. But, um, but I don't know, I just think the practice of listening to people and making them feel heard. We could we could probably all heal each other a little more just by by replacing some of the shouting over with, with listening.

Alex Ferrari 44:43
I agree with you, 100 100%. Now, to get back to the filmmaking side of this, this movie, what they're, you know, I don't know if I've asked you this on any of the other shows, but it's a question I've been asking lately, that we all go through every day. There's always a when we're shooting and we're shooting a movie were on onset. There's always that day that everything goes to hell lost the sun camera breaks, the actor can't make it, something happens where you have to completely compromise. What was the worst day of this? Besides every single day, besides every single day? What was the worst of every single day of that situation? And how did you overcome it?

Alex Lehmann 45:24
Okay, I, there's, of course, there are a couple of moments. And I just got to think about which one I can share the story without publicly, publicly, I will say that the filmmaking experience, and this is either going to piss people off, or they're just not gonna believe me, but it was such a positive experience. And it was just, you know, it was like, May of 21. So people were just starting to get their vaccines and just kind of coming out a little bit, there was such a, everybody was so excited just to be on a set together. And I don't know just the nature of what we're doing, enabled everybody to just be vulnerable and really lean in that. Like, I like to joke that if we had if the shooting schedule had been like a week longer, we probably would have turned into a cult. It was just the vibes were that good on on on that set.

Alex Ferrari 46:14
And that's what happens all the time.

Alex Lehmann 46:16
Have some really positive sets, though. But but this one, you know, really, this one, this one was special. But But sure, there were there were, you know, there was an angry neighbor at one point, because we had to drive through a private road and you know, there's there's Oregon private roads are people move to Oregon to be left alone, usually not. And that's how Portland I'm talking about. Like outskirts that's where we were shooting. It was very apropos for for acid man. And the neighbor was was well known. He was infamous for shooting at cars that drove too fast on the on their private roads. I don't think that anybody got shot at but we we definitely were confronted on a certain day where we're shooting a really emotional scene. And he came, he just came in screaming at at some of us and, you know, you just you just don't know. I mean, and this is honestly, this is scarier than anything else. Because you just don't know like, Does this guy have a gun? Like, is this? Is he mentally stable? Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like defusing that situation. And then also recognizing the fact that it's going to emotionally shake everybody, when you're asking not just the actors, but especially the actors to be vulnerable. Because that's, you know, that's what we're doing. We're making a film. I mean, if we'd been making an action film maybe would have like, pumped everybody up. But we weren't, we were making a film where people were trying to shed these layers and not take each other down. But but but like, connect and bring each other. And to do that, you have to put the armor down. And so when a guy comes onto your property and screams, and you think he's got a gun, like everybody wants to put that emotional armor up, like, I wish we'd had real body armor, to be honest, it was a little nervous. But um, but yeah, so I think really just recognizing everybody's feelings and just kind of like emotionally making the transition from stuff like that. Which, yeah, we lost that we lost, you know, a half hour and like, yet for you know, for a second, there's some logistical stuff. And you got to keep the day going for sure. But But I think crew morale and just really making everybody feel safe is so important.

Alex Ferrari 48:34
I agree with you. 100% is a good answer, sir. There's always there's always that day, there's always that thing or is always is always that day, there's always that thing. Now, what are you going to try back obviously, because you're in your this is our Tribeca coverage. So, of course, I always like to ask, what was that phone call, like? Because you haven't been in Tribeca before have you?

Alex Lehmann 48:54
I had a dark series here. A couple years ago, the Asperger's, we made a doc series with the Asperger's troupe, and that's on HBO, and we premiered it at Tribeca. But that was you know, those before the pandemic. It was right before the pandemic. It's like, what, 12 years ago now? 15 years ago. Yeah. So it doesn't really catch. But but this is the first narrative film that I've had at Tribeca and I'm super excited. It's you know, it's talking to my DP about this the other day, he said, Isn't it cool? Like there was like, we were essentially the crew of 15 people like living out like, cabins in these woods making this film because it cool that we're out in the middle of nowhere or again, like just 15 of us like doing this, this thing and our primary and like the, you know, one of the biggest cities in the world, you know, like this is huge, you know?

Alex Ferrari 49:46
No, no, a little birdie told me that you have something else coming up. At the end of the year you shot not just one film, but two back to back. Can you tell me about your next project coming out man?

Alex Lehmann 49:57
Yeah, so So acid man I thought was is going to be my movie last year. This is my coming out of the pandemic, pandemic movie. And this other film that I had been attached to for a little while, all of a sudden kind of pulled all the actors and all the money together and so basically shot these back to back, which was crazy. But there's this film, it's called meet cute, and it's starring Pete Davidson and Kaley Cuoco and super proud of it, and we'll have we'll have more details soon. But I think you know, everybody should be looking forward to seeing it at the end of the year. And it's it's kind of a it presents as a rom com. But it's a really great script by no go no le he was on the blacklist years ago. And it devolves it twists into some other stuff.

Alex Ferrari 50:44
There's UFOs involved obviously there's

Alex Lehmann 50:47
There's close close it gets it gets weird, man, but it's it's funny.

Alex Ferrari 50:53
You're like Michel Gondry weird is like Michel Gondry weird, are we?

Alex Lehmann 50:56
Yeah, it's like Michel Gondry where I saw that one of his films, his most famous film is definitely one that we use as a cop. And I don't know I'm just I'm really excited about what that is. And I think Kaylee does an amazing job and and, and, you know, Pete does an amazing job in it, but I feel like I'm looking at because with acid man, you know, I think Tom Haden Church is an amazing actor. He crushed it, the acid man that, you know, his his us is acting in this film, you know, just everybody keeps telling me. They just they love this side of Thomas that they haven't really gotten to see. And then I think Dianna Agron was fantastic in it. She was a creative collaborator, you know, on it from the very beginning. I mean, I should say that, like, she really helped me put this all together, when, you know, I've been I've been used to, you know, just going to Mark Duplass and say, lucky me, I could just call Mark

Alex Ferrari 51:50
Hey, Mark, I need idea. Let's get this go make this.

Alex Lehmann 51:54
Yeah. And so, you know, basically calling, calling Diane up and saying, like, I've got this movie, and you're perfect for it. And, you know, could you help me? You know, if you signed on, I think we can get a really great actor and some money and you know, I just really need you to be behind this. And she's been behind it from from day one, you know, creatively. And logistically, and you know, someone like that, when they when they give you that confidence, and when they when they stand behind you. They give their stamp of approval. That's a great way to get something that's delivered in every way. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 52:31
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing your new movie at the end of the year. And, and I tell everybody goes the asset man, it's really just really interesting meditation. As I look at this, it was very much as a meditation you sit there and just absorb it cinematography score, just the performances, it just kind of wash over you there. It's beautiful, man. Now, I'm going to ask you a couple questions that I ask all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Alex Lehmann 53:00
Yeah, I would say keep, keep doing keep being yourself, keep doing you. I see a lot of filmmakers trying to be another filmmaker Right? Or, you know, trying to make their version of well you make your version of something but make it your version of something don't don't try to make the carbon copy of whatever movie it is you love. And I think that the sooner they discover themselves and don't try to be anybody else, the the more quickly, audiences will be able to see their authentic filmmaker self.

Alex Ferrari 53:33
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Alex Lehmann 53:38
That I don't know? Because I think I'm still learning that every time kind of a cop out answer, but it's kind of not like like, because you you have to know certain things and then every time certainty creeps in, at least for myself, I have to take a step back and say like, alright, dial it back, you know, it can't can't be too certain of anything, because there's a lot of learning left to do.

Alex Ferrari 54:03
Yeah. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Alex Lehmann 54:07
Three of my favorite films of all time. Okay, I'm gonna start with what is I think a cousin to our film that is Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I think we share a lot of the same emotional and thematic DNA, slightly different budget.

Alex Ferrari 54:26
Even even the 70s budget is still slightly different than today.

Alex Lehmann 54:29
Yeah, but you know, there's, there's a, there's a real connection there. And I would say 400 blows is a big one for me. And then, I mean, I could try to like dig deep and be cool, but Jaws I'll just go to jobs because I've never seen anything more than jaws. Like what like, I don't need to impress anybody.

Alex Ferrari 54:50
Just it's it's, I mean, it's a masterpiece and it still holds it still scares the living hell out of you. Even now, like it doesn't mean the shark might look a little janky but even then it doesn't look that janky I mean, just 3d look much worse than just the shark at least

Alex Lehmann 55:10
I'm gonna be you know what I'll be Stan is this I don't know, Stan I think is the I'm gonna be a stand in silver stand and say et as well like it's too many Spielberg movies for a list but like, I don't I don't care at because you say it still holds like that movie. So I if I need to cry watch at

Alex Ferrari 55:29
My, my, my daughters were traumatized when et was found down at the river traumatized, like they watched when they when he was down at the river, and he's like dying. Sorry, guys. Sorry, spoiler alert. If you haven't seen at if you're listening to this MSAT I'm sorry. But when he's down there and they were like five or something, we showed them a five or six traumatized they still talk about that? They love the movie, but they just remember that image of ET because he loved them so much. And like was it was an emotional roller coaster to say the least.

Alex Lehmann 56:01
I I don't know how to explain this because it's gonna sound like I'm pretty dumb. That's okay. Maybe it's right. But but when you said that they found at by the river my mind immediately went to like 80 lives like in a van down by the river now like, that's where his career that's where his career is. Like, we got to start a GoFundMe for Ed. Like I literally went there first. And I'm not stupid. I know. I know. He's fake. I know he's done but I was just like

Alex Ferrari 56:32
No, because I saw I saw that I saw your face when I said it. It took you like like a five or 10 seconds and then I started to click Oh, he means that scene in the movie but I didn't know where you were thinking about thank you for

Alex Lehmann 56:45
My mind went a few places because first it was like oh, maybe maybe you know like there was like a stuffed eat like maybe like the universe or whatever right like that the actual et puppet that they use in the movie somehow got dumped by a river and like kids. Movie Yeah, no, I remember the movie. So my favorite movies. But like my mind, my mind did not choose the path of logic my mind. It chose the path of illogic

Alex Ferrari 57:13
Et lives in a van down by the river. That's amazing. That is, that's

Alex Lehmann 57:21
Smoking cigarettes.

Alex Ferrari 57:23
Times are tough. He spit Spielberg and him had a falling out because it couldn't get the sequel up and running. He's hanging out there with Roger Rabbit because Roger Rabbit couldn't get to sequel either.

Alex Lehmann 57:33
Elliot as an adult one day drives by and he sees him and he like looks away trying not to make eye contact because he's like, I don't even know how to like help him watch this situation. It's feel too guilty to like

Alex Ferrari 57:46
We should we should listen man, can we get a Kickstarter going right now for a sequel? Well, we'll call up we'll call up Henry Thomas. If you'll come out and do it for us.

Alex Lehmann 57:59
I really know how to take the blockbuster out of a blockbuster.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
Turn it into meditation on stardom.

Alex Lehmann 58:07
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 58:10
It's a pleasure first of all, you have the best first game ever. But other than that, sir it's a pleasure talking to you. But I always love catching up with you. You're welcome back anytime I look forward to seeing your new movie at the end of the year. Please come back and tell us about how that I'm sure you have insane stories about how that got a different story. And you know in hanging out with some I mean two very big star I mean these are monster stars right now and Pete pizza little well known now

Alex Lehmann 58:38
In the news for something and he's living in a van down by the river Alaska.

Alex Ferrari 58:41
I think we should we should do a GoFundMe for Pete because I think he just got he just left Saturn at live it's me. He's he needs help. Poor guy,

Alex Lehmann 58:48
By the way. So one thing I'll just say really, really quickly that I'm proud of that maybe it's worth sharing with your audiences. You know, the budgets on acid man and then the new one meet cute very different and went from like middle nowhere Oregon crew of 15 people to you know, shooting in Manhattan. I you know, same DP St. I brought it over as much of the same crew as I possibly could anybody that was available. That set had you know, held their own on the smaller film, there was no fu I'm gonna go hire the, the bigger version of you like, I'm not gonna go I'm gonna get whoever I can. You know, whoever did Sandler's last movie, whatever. No, I wanted to work with the same people. And I would say that that's good advice. That that stick with the people that you know that you've been succeeding with, you know, have their back you know, they've had yours for long enough. Agreed, agreed on a person really? Yeah, really proud of the team that they made both of those movies with

Alex Ferrari 59:47
Alex a pleasure as always, my friend continued success and you're welcome back anytime, my friend.

Alex Lehmann 59:53
Congrats to you.

Alex Ferrari 59:54
Thank you my friend!

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 341: Creating Comedy’s Hero’s Journey with Steve Kaplan

November 17, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Steve Kaplan is a renowned comedy consultant and author of “The Hidden Tools of Comedy,” a book that delves into the mechanics of comedy and the psychology behind humor. He has adapted Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey framework to comedy writing in a way that helps writers understand how to create engaging and funny stories. Here’s a simplified version of “Comedy’s Hero’s Journey” based on Steve Kaplan’s approach:

The Ordinary World:
- Introduce your protagonist in their everyday life, emphasizing their flaws or quirks.
- Highlight the comedic elements in their character and situation.
The Call to Adventure:
- Present a challenge or opportunity that pushes the protagonist out of their comfort zone.
- Make sure this situation has humorous potential, whether through absurdity, irony, or misunderstandings.
Refusal of the Call:
- Show how your protagonist initially resists or avoids the challenge, often to comedic effect.
- Highlight their fears, flaws, or comedic traits that lead to this resistance.
Meeting the Mentor:
- Introduce a mentor or guide who provides comedic wisdom or advice.
- This mentor can be a quirky character who imparts humor and helps the protagonist understand their journey better.
Crossing the First Threshold:
- The protagonist decides to face the challenge and enters a new world or situation.
- Bring out the comedic elements of their initial struggles and missteps.
Tests, Allies, and Enemies:
- Create a series of comedic trials, challenges, and encounters with allies and enemies.
- Use humor to showcase the protagonist’s growth and development as they tackle these obstacles.
Approach to the Inmost Cave:
- The protagonist approaches a pivotal, high-stakes moment in their journey.
- Use humor to heighten the tension and the absurdity of the situation.
The Ordeal:
- Present a climactic, comedic confrontation or obstacle that tests the protagonist.
- Comedy can come from the unexpected twists and the protagonist’s humorous reactions.
Reward (Seizing the Sword):
- The protagonist achieves their goal or overcomes a major obstacle.
- Inject humor into this moment to celebrate their success in a comedic way.
The Road Back:
- Show the aftermath of the protagonist’s victory and how they plan to return to their ordinary world.
- Humor can come from the consequences of their actions and decisions.
Resurrection:
- Present a final, humorous challenge or confrontation that forces the protagonist to prove their growth and resolve.
- Comedy can be used to emphasize the transformation they’ve undergone.
Return with the Elixir:
- The protagonist returns to the ordinary world, bringing humor, wisdom, or a newfound perspective with them.
- Conclude the story with a comedic twist or resolution that ties up loose ends.

In Steve Kaplan’s approach to Comedy’s Hero’s Journey, the focus is on using humor to engage the audience and enhance the storytelling process. This framework helps comedy writers understand how to create funny and relatable characters and situations while still following the classic Hero’s Journey structure.

Right-click here to download the MP3

SPONSORS

Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook

Episode Transcript

Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 1:44
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:49
This week's guest is one of the most sought after coaches in comedy. His first book, The Hidden Tools of Comedy was one of the one of my favorite books that came out in the past couple of years. And it's been an international bestseller. And his new book, which we're going to talk all about the Comic Hero's Journey is out now everywhere. So without further ado, was Steve Kaplan. So Steve, you've been on twice before, and this is your third time on the podcast? How does it feel?

Steve Kaplan 2:16
It feels good. I'm still waiting for my third time. Jacket, you know, like they do on SNL. But I'll I'll just wait. I'm sure that's in the mail.

Dave Bullis 2:27
It is and if it gets lost? Well, you know what? There's been a lot of cutbacks at the post office, Steve. So

Steve Kaplan 2:33
Oh, boy. Okay, well, I'll continue nevertheless.

Dave Bullis 2:37
By the way, here's a funny story for you, Steve. Really quickly, I used to work at the post office.

Steve Kaplan 2:44
So that explains it there. They

Dave Bullis 2:45
were so desperate, they hired me. Can you believe that?

Steve Kaplan 2:49
So So So did you experience what it meant to go postal?

Dave Bullis 2:53
Well, it was the I have an unfair advantage. And that that part of it because I've always been like, you know, that unhinged guy at work. So I kind of walked in with a chip on my shoulder. So.

Steve Kaplan 3:05
Okay, and what what were you what were your duties at the post office? Were you walking around? Or were you behind the desk or

Dave Bullis 3:11
neither? I actually was the guy who was in like the NL at the warehouse, and we would like sort mail. We'd move like tons of mail from here to there. We would like stock, we would help like the actual postal workers. We'd actually like you know, here's all the mail for your route today. And here's what you got to do. Yeah, it was it was not a very glamorous job. So if you're thinking of telling me

Steve Kaplan 3:33
Tell me one thing that you hoped your supervisors never found out

Dave Bullis 3:42
that I probably took the only thing I could do say is I took longer breaks than I should have. I didn't like steal any mail or hide in woods mail. Nothing like that. I'd never I would never do anything like that. I'm so sorry. I don't have any like crazy stories. Like I didn't I didn't tell the bag a male definitely like a sewer or something. But

Steve Kaplan 4:01
did you ever he did you ever know anybody who did? Oh,

Dave Bullis 4:06
stuff would go like I mean, Steve like they used to, like throw stuff across the the entire floor. So like, you know, they would take a box that says fragile, and they would just boot it all the way across the whole room. Oh, yeah, that happens on the regular.

Steve Kaplan 4:21
Okay, well, this is the basis of a new Sundance comedy. I can I can see it now. Going stone.

Dave Bullis 4:30
I thought you were gonna say like a new lawsuit against the post. I got this guy. Oh, it's

Steve Kaplan 4:35
everything is story. Everything is a is something to generate story.

Dave Bullis 4:40
That's very true. And, you know, I've seen a lot of the interviews you've done, Steve, and not just the ones that you've done here. You know, you've been on twice before. But you know, you've been on film courage. You know, you've done a lot a ton of interviews. And you know, you're you're very good at, you know, sort of putting comedy perspective, which and what I mean by that is putting putting, you know, it has to be a story, there has to be a reason. It's funny, because if it's just a series of events, it really doesn't mean a lot, right?

Steve Kaplan 5:09
Well, it's not that it doesn't mean I've been thinking about that a lot in the new book that I wrote comic hero's journey. I was thinking today that I didn't give enough props to totally silly comedies that that have nothing on their mind other than to be totally silly. And I was thinking about the fact that one of the reasons that I don't have a section on that is because it's so hard to do. Because you're not you have nothing to hang. Hang the narrative on you don't you you you kind of have characters but they're not fully dimensionalized characters. I'm thinking of things like like the jerk that I just recently rescreened. You don't have a story that you really care about, because you know that the characters are just there for laughs. And when it works, it's it's it's amazing. But it's it's very hard to work, I can think of a lot more instances where it doesn't work like scary movie for or or, you know, Naked Gun, this the seven sequel, because while it's possible to do it, it's it's a very hard trick to pull off, because what it means is that you are entertaining the audience in one particular way. For for 95 minutes, or 100 or 105 minutes. And that's extremely difficult to because you don't have a love story to fall back on. You don't have you don't have any real tension to fall back on. There's no suspense. There's no drama, there's no, there's nothing thematic that hooks in. And what I found, what I find is that when I go back and watch these movies, like the jerk, they don't hold up that well. I mean, for me at least, that that, you know, having being familiar with the comedy of it, the jokes of it. I'm not as as I'm not taking for a ride anymore, and I kind of see the shallowness of it. Although at the time I loved it. I was I was a big fan, one movie that's like that, that still works for me, is there a plane? And I think the reason for that is because even though it is as silly as the day is long, you care about that Robert K's character, you care about him. Somehow they make you a, you know, they make you concerned, they they have a knot, it's kind of the reverse of a save the cat in drama, you have to save the cat moment. In comedy, you often have the cat scratches your heroes face, and then the then pees on his leg and then walks away. You you're made to feel sympathetic, you're made to feel bad for the for the character, and that that makes you care. And if you care about the character that no matter how silly the circumstances are, you're you kind of fall into the narrative. You're hooked in the narrative. So that's what I've been thinking about. That's a that's a long answer to a question you didn't even ask.

Dave Bullis 8:27
And those are the best ones, Steve. I trust me. Because because, you know, people tune into you always hear the guests like always say, and it's always good to, you know, with a guest that oh, you know, talks more than I do. And I look good, too, because I didn't have to ask a question. You already gave me an answer. So thank you. Thank you for that, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 8:44
Well, there you go. So,

Dave Bullis 8:45
but you know, I watched the jerk again recently. You know, I still love the movie. I actually think it's hilarious, but I see what you mean. But you know, and when I watched movies, like the jerk, and then you kind of compare it to today. You know, I still think the jerk has more character development, because some movies today maybe, you know, maybe there's not so much character development, or maybe there are too many, you know, there are too many jokes that really don't kind of tie in with it. So you know, and then that kind of ties with one of the questions I want to ask you is, you know, what are some of the recent movies that you've seen where that have that have not only been funny, but you also thought they were good because they actually told a story, you know, that actually focused on a character?

Steve Kaplan 9:28
Oh, well. I would sit you know, I would say Lady Bird. If you're gonna go on the on the spectrum of amusing to hilarious Lady Bird might not be on the hilarious side of that spectrum. But it's moving. It's funny. It's true. It's authentic.

Alex Ferrari 9:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 10:00
I like I like to the Grand Budapest Hotel again, it's just this perfect little fairy tale that has very exaggerated characters. But ultimately it's it's about it's about honor and integrity in a strange way because it's about this maitre d who you know who screws all the while the elder guests the hotel, but in a strange way, it's it's about a holding on to something that's valuable from the past and mourning the things that are lost. In terms of movies that I think I thought were just funny, I thought spy was very successful in terms of parodying that James Bond formula, and yet finding its own comedy in in what Melissa McCarthy does. So. So I think, let me see, what was there something you know, most of the comedy that I see today on our movie, you know, successful comedies on movies as much as as what you see on television, and especially on this on the streaming channels. brockmeyer is, is a binge worthy favorite of mine. It's because I love baseball. And I love Hank Azaria. And he just takes this dissolute character to its ultimate illogical, logical conclusion. And it makes sense. It's the hem hangers area. Amanda Pete, great stuff very funny. And the marvelous, Mrs. Maisel said, Did I pronounce that right? And I can ever figure that out? I'm just starting to watch season two. So that's very good. I, I think it's hard to it's hard to do a feature comedy, because the, because the marketplace kind of demands them to dumb down their material. So you have something like, have you seen tag? Right,

Dave Bullis 12:18
I've seen tag. So

Steve Kaplan 12:19
I don't know what you thought of tag. But I thought that, that it's kind of an odd, quirky story that I couldn't see the reason why they made it into a movie. Because even though there were some funny things that happened, it kind of eluded me. Maybe you had a different experience. But I find that a lot of what gets into the theaters is something that they're condescending to the audience, they think you Well, this is funny, they'll like it, as opposed to what's the best story we can tell? And what's the most common way we can tell it? Yeah,

Dave Bullis 13:03
I sold tag. And I, it's Yeah, I kind of felt that way, too. It's kind of like, you know, how did this, you know, get made into a movie? It's kind of one of those things where like they made you kind of see the poster and you're like, well, maybe it could be good, you know, and then and then it's kind of like, you know, they made this little movie. I'm sure there was a market for it. I don't know how well did I really I don't have the numbers, but I don't know what I don't think there's gonna be a sequel?

Steve Kaplan 13:32
No, I don't think so. I you know, in a way, sometimes the best comedies nowadays are the animated comedies, because they're, they they're creating, especially the Pixar comedies, they're creating material, that has to be four quadrant that has to appeal towards everybody. So it can't just be silly jokes that the kids like, there has to be something for the parents. They want something for the parents, and those Pixar movies are all driven thematic, like as opposed to driven by plot and gag. So Incredibles two, Coco, is that was that? Was that the one with the day? The dead? I think that's I think I'm getting

Dave Bullis 14:18
that right. Yeah, that was Coco. Yeah.

Steve Kaplan 14:21
I mean, those are those are wonderful, inventive, imaginative, and moving, moving pieces of of comic film. And I guess I guess there's the sense because it's not R rated, that they can just tell a story and they're not beholden to do something outrageous or gross every 10 minutes to keep this imaginary audience of 30 year old boys happy.

Dave Bullis 14:52
So you know, you mentioned brockmeyer I've never seen an episode, but I have a friend who swears by it. Because he just loves was high cause area as well. But you know, speaking of baseball shows, have you ever seen Eastbound and Down? I

Steve Kaplan 15:05
do like Eastbound and Down. And the thing is, is that I like Eastbound and Down I like Danny McBride. And if you put the two of them together, the thing that I like more about brockmeyer is that it expands the the the envelope of what's what could be, what could actually have have happened, and it doesn't break the envelope. Whereas with Eastbound and Down, you often have to just leave your your good send off to one side and just to just enjoy Danny McBride is this outrageous, not too bright ex baseball player. So those are actually two similar projects, which I think one is, is done better. But, but both both have both have amusing things. I mean, you know, for me, you you start with the hardest question for me day, which is what have you seen that you like? Which makes me feel obligated to? Well, what's what did I like, that's good. But the taste is subjective. That's one of the things that I, I, I teach strongly in my workshops in my books is that is that funny is subjective. mean? What I find funny, you might not find funny, it doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa. So you so if you're not going to try to create funny, what's going to make me laugh as opposed to what's going to make you laugh, then you then you want to try to create comedy, which is telling the truth about people, what's true about people and telling the truth about that, using you know, a variety of methods that that make it that bring it out of the mundane and the ordinary and and elevate it to two common kind of comic art and comic truth. So so if you if you ask me, what what have I seen that I I really like, I'm, I'm really drawn to two movies that I've seen years ago that I stood that still stay with me, like about a boy, or 500 days of summer movies that are funny, but they have something on their mind. And they they move me. They move me in three ways they move me kinetically I laugh, they move me emotionally, I feel and they move me intellectually, I think. And to me, those are the best movies. And to me, I still I still go to my favorite, which is Groundhog Day. And I guess my second favorite might be 40 Year Old Virgin, which I just spent a day screening for a class in Milan, trying to teach them how it works in terms of the comic hero's journey.

Dave Bullis 18:01
So when you screen them, oh, by the way, those are two very good choices, by the way. So because, you know, Groundhog's Day, I you know, you we could we could dissect that right now. But I, I mean, it's it's such a great movie, because, you know, repeating the same day over and over. And eventually you're right. I think he touched upon this in an interview before maybe you and I talked about this, but where he kind of assumes that he's God. And he kind of assumes these things. That's how people would have really, you know, you that's how if that happened to you or me, you would assume that same thing. Right?

Steve Kaplan 18:34
I mean, and that's that's really the brilliance of the Harold Ramis revision of the originally, the original Danny Rubin script is that in at least in the final shooting version, they he kind of holds very closely to, okay, this impossible thing happened, that he's waking up into the same day over and over again. But having having admitted that having just gone along and said okay, this impossible thing happened, what would happen then, if this were true, what would really happen at that and I think one of the things that makes Groundhog Day work so well is that is that even though incredible, weird, funny things happen. It stays within the reality of the impossible situation that they created. He wakes up the same day, he remembers everything, nobody remembers anything. So he can go to a girl and and try to pick her up. And if he makes if he says something wrong and turns her off, he can come back the next day and and make it better. So she'll say what should we toast to? And he'll he's at a bar and you'll say Let's toast to the groundhog. And she kind of gets turned off by that. So he comes back the very next day.

Alex Ferrari 19:58
We'll be right back after a word from Our sponsor and now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 20:07
And she says, What should we toast to? And he turns all solemn. And he says, I'd like to say a word for, you know, a prayer for world peace. And, and, of course, because he figures having gone through trial and error, he knows that that will that will endear himself to her. So I, you know, I like the fact that it takes an impossible or improbable situation, which in my book, I call the WTF moment, the WHAT THE FUCK moment. And, and after that, everything that happens after that evolves organically, and I'm honestly out of character guided by theme.

Dave Bullis 20:54
Yeah, it's, it's kind of like every guy's dream, right, you have a limited chances to actually pick up a girl. Right? So, but, but no, it's, it's, it's like those days, you know, that the harder Groundhog's Day was, you know, is basically, you know, he had to find out what was missing in his life and basically, you know, find out all the mistakes that he was making. And, you know, even when he thought he had the perfect day, he would he would never he woke up again. And he goes, what the hell I thought it you know, I got it. I did all this right. And he, he still didn't wake up. And then finally as it progressed, it was he he had to, I forget the the female character's name in there that he ended up with at the end. We have railroad Right, right. And read a play by Andy McDowell. Right? Well, I remember his name was Phil, because I remember that guy was like, Do you feel like the groundhog? See, it's stuck with me. It's like a mnemonic device. But and then you have for your version, which, you know, I think, you know, again, that's brilliant. Especially, you know, I mean, it's probably even more true today than it was when it was made even a few years ago, because you got a lot of millennials still living at it, you know, they you know what, I mean, they still living at home. A

Steve Kaplan 22:02
That's true. That's true. But I think I for me, the thing, the brilliance of the Apatow film, is the brilliant combination. And, and, and, and the balance between gross out humor and real heart? Where, whereas before, you had lots of films, you know, like, there's Rob Schneider films, which were just basically how can we be grosser than the Farrelly brothers and get away with it and get some laughs. But what Judd Apatow did is he he kind of hit the sweet spot between consider a conservative sentimental story, and, you know, balls to the wall, gross out humor. And, and in fact, in talking about the film, he he often talks about the fact that there were things he cut out, because they lost the audience, they might have gotten some laughs from some from some people. But if he, when he showed it to the audience, for instance, there were there was much more pornography, literal pornography, that that they were looking at, on the screens, because they were in this, you know, the true tech or whatever the name of smart tech was the electronic store. And there was a sequencing which they lock Andy, which was played by Steve Carell in the in the booth where you could test out sound systems, and they locked him in there with a pornographic film to get him out of his. I know virgin dumb. And in the, in one of the original cuts, there was a lot more porno film in it. And in fact, I this is a very, this is a very, I think, odd point. But the actress in the porno film, I think is Stormy Daniels. i i You could check me on that. But I think that that stormy Daniels in there and and what they found it at a test screening was that it was funny, it got a laugh, but it lost the audience. Because you know, maybe they were a little uncomfortable. Or maybe they just thought oh, is this the movie we're going to watch now it's it's going to be as you know, more gross than more gross and more gross grosser and grocer as opposed to dumber and dumber. And so he he edited that out and he trimmed it and he took out the part that that pushed the audience away not offended the audience, but push them out of the narrative push them out of the caring about the character. And and, and so to me, one of the one of the one difficult things about the movie. Is that right? When you think, Oh, now they're going to really make fun of this character, and they're going to mock him. You empathize with him. you sympathize with him. You feel bad for him after he after it's revealed that he's a virgin at the poker game. There's not a sequence where he's like doing something dumb. He's, he's riding his bike home in pain in agony. The first thing you see when he gets to his apartment is a shot of him screaming like this primal scream of pain and humiliation. And the result of that is that you're thinking, Oh, my God, this isn't just a joke. That's supposed to last for 90 minutes. This is a human being who's had who's has this improbable. Like go back to impossible or improbable, this improbable thing. He's 40 years old. He's still a virgin. It's not impossible, but it's improbable. And what would happen? What would he do? And and the guys at the at the at Smart Tech, they don't just make they don't make fun of them. Some of them do some minor characters who we see for a second, but the main three buddies, Seth Rogen, Paul Rudd and Romany Malco. They're out to help him. It's actually a very heartwarming and an inclusive movie about about growing up and trance transformation. So to me, those those are movies, when I go to the movies, and I see something that's not not really a transcendent experience, I often have to go and watch something else that I think I think is and it could be something as, as classic as shop around the corner, or you've got mail, which is the same story but updated, or it's a wonderful life or meet me in St. Louis, these stories that combine comedy with heart and a point of view and an idea in their head.

Dave Bullis 27:21
You know, you mentioned the Farrelly brothers. One of my favorite movies of all time, by the way is Dumb and Dumber. And, you know, as you also mentioned, Dumb and Dumber. I don't know if you met that on purpose. But you know what I mean? And so I just wanted to say what do you what do you think of Dumb and Dumber?

Steve Kaplan 27:36
I think it's one of the things that when I talked about movies that are just kind of designed to make you laugh, and not not a lot else, that's one of the movies that succeeds wonderfully, because they they have this silly premise where these two dumb guys are going to go on this road trip. And they just keep on finding inventive ways to keep it fresh. And one of the ways that they do it is by at any 1.1 of them. One of the dumb guys is slightly more aware and smarter than the others. So it's this wonderful Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy routine all the way throughout. But they but they switch it enough so that it doesn't become repetitive or predictable. So I I love I love Dumb and Dumber. And, and I think it's, it's it's one of the it's one of the few movies that I think tries to be funny from beginning to end, and then succeeds, but it's really, really hard. And if and if you want proof of how hard it is. Take a look at the Farrelly brothers, Three Stooges, which is you know, the Listen, these are the same guys. They're talented guys. Bobby read my book and wrote me a nice note about it, which I love, you know, which I liked. But the Three Stooges it only works sporadically because there's not, you know, because there's really no story other than, hey, we're doing the Three Stooges. And, and it's got some silly plot, but you don't really care about them the way you care about the characters in Dumb and Dumber or, or more. Even more the characters in There's Something About Mary.

Dave Bullis 29:31
Yeah, and you know, that's kind of one of the hardest things to do for writers, right, is to create empathy for a character. So the audience, you know, they they not only they don't sympathize, but you know, sympathy is feeling sorry for somebody, but empathy is putting yourself into their shoes. So you can see things from their point of view. And that's kind of one of the hardest things I that I think for writers to do, because it's what Pixar does so well.

Alex Ferrari 30:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show,

Dave Bullis 30:09
which is, you know, right off the bat caring about characters getting involved their story. So you actually give a damn if they see if they succeed or not?

Steve Kaplan 30:16
Well, in a way, it's actually the easiest thing to do, because all you have to do is tell your own story. One of the things that Pixar does so well, is they spend so much time on story, and they're willing to throw out years of work, hundreds and 1000s of dollars worth of work in order to get the story right. In inside out, for instance, at first it was going to be joy, the character of joy and fear going on that journey. And, and then they spent a lot of time trying to make that work, and it didn't work. And ultimately they had to go, they had to realize that what joy needs is her opposite, Joy needs sadness. And the way you get there is not by intellectualizing by going, you know, what I think Joy should be what you what you get, how you get there is by sharing your own feelings, sharing your own sense of, of what's happened to you as a person. I, I can't remember exactly who on the creative team. It was, but somebody had the experience of leaving Minnesota, and going to a new city as a kid, and that became the movie. So it's not a matter of how can you make a character empathetic, tell your own story. Be honest, in the fictional in that fictional world, tell your own story. Somebody once said that all fiction is autobiography. Every piece of fiction is that is actually telling you more about the person who's writing it then about the characters who are in it. And I think that's true. So, in, in, There's Something About Mary, there's this wonderful moment. It's not the first moment in the film, but it's one of the flashback moments. When we see Ben Stiller, as a teenager with really terrible braces. Go to pick Mary up for the prom, and the end, he rings the doorbell. And this, the door opens. And I forget the name of the actor, but the actor is African. A Keith David Right, Keith David opens the door. And you know, Mary's not African American, so he's confused for a second. So he kind of picks up at the door number for a second and then the guy says what are you here for? And he says I'm here to pick up Mary for the prom. And Keith David because Keith David's this practical joke. He says all Mary went to the prom 20 minutes ago with her boyfriend Woogie. And there's this moment where you see Ben Stiller, his face, just just, you know, fall apart. You know, he's any he's trying, you know, he's trying to hold it together and just goes kind of, okay. And he's about to walk away. And yes, then the mom comes in and says, Oh, he's kidding. Come on, in. But in that moment, we confronted all our disappointments from adolescence, everybody who's ever stood up, or didn't have a date or, or had a bad date or was or is or was passed over for being picked for volleyball. You know, we, we all empathize with that moment, and it's not saved the cat. It's basically the cat scratched me. And, and, and, and it's a universal feeling. So what happens? What happens in a comedy is you want to make sure that the more the more exaggerated and ridiculous event that's going to happen later on in the movie. That means that you have to be more honest and real earlier in the movie, to make us care make us care, because eventually later on in that scene, Ben Stiller finds himself in a bathroom and he zips up too quickly and he catches a very important appendage in a zipper. Which is ridiculous. I mean, it's it's just flat out silly. But if we don't care about the character, that's all it is just silly, as opposed to ask us kind of putting ourselves in his shoes and going, man, what else? What else wrong could happen today?

Dave Bullis 34:41
And basically, you know, like you always said, Steve, the like an action movie. The hero has all the tools. But in a bun in a comedy The Hero has no tools whatsoever,

Steve Kaplan 34:53
or Well, that was not not no tools, but the hero lacks some if not most of the tools so I mean, Woody Allen's very, very witty and very bright, but he's a physical coward. So you can, you can't be a total. Normally it can't be a total loser but but somebody who lacks some if not, if not all the skills I mean one of the in working on the common hero's journey, which was taking a look at the hero's journey. From a comedy point of view, one of the things that we that we came to in the beginning was the fact that in a, in a, in a drama in an action film, the the hero has all the skills necessary sometimes they are hidden within they have greatness hidden within only they don't know it, perhaps like Luke Skywalker, but in a comedy, your character starts the movie off with with there's no greatness within there. It's far from greatness within us as humanly possible. And basically, the story of a comedy is a story of a character who is comfortable, used to has, has resigned themselves to being this imperfect person. In fact, most of the times they don't even know that they're imperfect. And something some impossible or improbable thing happens to push them out of their comfort zone. And they're forced to transform. And they do transform, because they because like in big worry, he wakes up he's 30 years old and Groundhog Day he's waking up, it's the same day over and over again. There's no choice but to transform, because their circumstances have changed. So that they're our characters in a comedy become somebody who is is a more actualized human being it has more skills, but they start off as big zeros, what we call, you know, take, you know, taking your zero and making him into a hero.

Dave Bullis 36:55
Right And to go along with what you just said, you know, you're right. I misspoke when I said lack of lack of skills rise no or sorry, has zero skills. Because you have to have at least one trait for the audience. We like maybe this guy has a shot at something. Yeah. Yeah. So you see, that's where my head's at. Steve, I'm always like, look, just so let's just give them nothing and go from Let's go. Oh, no, no, something.

Steve Kaplan 37:21
I mean, in bridesmaids, Christian way get it is is totally messed up. But at least she has a good best friend in Maya Rudolph. Even though she doesn't have a job and she doesn't have a boyfriend and Jon Hamm is terrible to her. So so so our our heroes, our comic heroes start off with something. But most of the time that they're there, they're not aware of how of how bad their predicament is, or how, what what their, what their minus is their negative is. And most of the times our comic heroes start off with a short sighted goal you know, Bill Murray in Groundhog Day only wants to get a job at a at a bigger station where he can be a newscaster steam Steve Carell and 40 year old virgin only, he just wants to continue what he thinks is a great life. You know, he makes an omelet every morning by himself and he plays with his dolls, and he has all his his merchandise still in the original packaging, and he watches survivor with the elderly couple upstairs. He He's to him, that's okay. I'm not he's not he doesn't complain. And he's not even totally conscious that he's that he's unhappy. But what happens as our characters transform is they get what what we call the discovered goal, that in comedies, our characters discover a goal halfway through midway through that, that then becomes their ultimate goal, their their outer goal in order to accomplish whatever they're trying to accomplish in the movie.

Dave Bullis 39:10
Because like a four year old virgin, you know, if it were to be like, let's just say you know, real life and and, you know, that main character never ever realized how unhappy he was, you know, he was always 40 He was always just going to do the same old thing. Essentially, you could see that he would never change his routine, and he would just kind of, you know, die, so to speak physically, and we're just surrounded by that stuff and he would never there was an issue. Yeah. So and then again, when when he is going back to for your virgin when he when his whole goal was just to get laid at first and then he realizes he he's found somebody he actually loves by the boat. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 39:51
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 40:00
He, so the first thing he says is I respect when I totally respect women, I respect them so much I stay the hell away from them. And and then later on, it's like, no, I don't want to go to bed with the girl from the bookstore, I, I love Trish played by Catherine Keener eye and and he he does something which is way outside his comfort zone he races after her on his bike to you know to get the girl of his dreams so. So there there are a lot of there are some similarities between the hero's journey and the common hero's journey. You often at the end of an action film, you have the race to the finish. In a comedy, you're having you're seeing character transform, go from, you know, a zero to a match, and mentions a Yiddish word that means that like a good man, a complete person. And and so in an action film, Bruce Willis is going to kick ass from the minute he shows up on screen screen to the end. But our heroes and in accommodate, they're not going to kick ass in the beginning, they have to learn they have to gain skills, they have to gather allies, and they have to become better, better human beings in the world, more more comfortable, more integrated into the world that they live in.

Dave Bullis 41:38
Where and you know, we've kind of been, you know, talking sort of, in a roundabout way about the comic hero's journey. So let's talk about your new books.

Steve Kaplan 41:45
My new book. Funny, you should mention that that's my new book, The comic hero's journey, serious story structure for fabulously funny films now published by Michael, we see productions now available in your local Amazon?

Dave Bullis 41:59
Well, you know, it's funny, I looked down by my foot, and there was just sitting there, I was like, Hey, wait a minute here, I had at the end of the school year. But yeah, we were talking, you know, in a roundabout way about, you know, creating characters and, and, you know, finding out their their sort of wants and needs and goals. And, you know, so what was sort of the impetus for you to sort of write this book, you know, for the commentators journey? Well,

Steve Kaplan 42:26
I had been, I'd written my previous book, The Hidden tools of comedy, which was, which were specific tools and principles that you could apply towards film or television. And I would be teaching these workshops and people would say, would say, Well, how would this happen at this part in the movie, and it just made me think, okay, there are all these books and about story structure and, and a lot of my friends have written books about story structure, like Michael Haig and John Truby, and Chris Vogler. And I thought, well, well, is that how are the how is that story structure that the three ad format or the six plot point turning format? How does that work for comedy? So I started to explore that. And I realized some of it is similar, but there are important elements that are completely different. And that that are different in a comedy than than in than in a dramatic or action film. And so I started working on it, I started and I pitched it to my publisher, and I, I mentioned it to Chris Vogler who's written the the writers journey, which is based on the Joseph Campbell work, the monomyth in the hero with 1000 faces. And I said, Chris, do you mind? I'm going to steal your title, and your ID, I'm going to use it for comedy. And after a moment, he said, Okay, only only only mentioned me, as you're doing it. So I did. And so I and so this is a template for a writing a comic feature. It's not it's not the only way to write a comic feature. It's not the the end all and be all of of how to structure a story, but it's one way of taking a look at the hero's journey, and seeing how that that Monomyth works for comedy. And and the the I think one of the big differences is understanding that your hero starts off at loss, you know, that we talked about? An understanding that the funny thing that happens to them that that that what we call the comic premise, the impossible or improbable thing is the only time in in the story that you can make shit up that you can lie that after you impose that impossible or improbable event or happenstance, then you have to play honestly develop the cat develop the narrative, honestly, through character. And through theme. We talked about the fact that the characters are transforming, they have a discovered goal. And then we talk about the fact that, and this is, to me, this is almost it goes without saying, but I found out that, that it was a little bit of a revelation to people that I was working with, or talking to in workshops is that in order for the comic Hero's Journey to work, there has to be real pain, and real loss, there has to be, there has to be honest moments where where you where you drop into dry drop into drama. Otherwise, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't matter. So So that's, that's a part of the of the common hero's journey that's essential for comedies, and I can't think of a good comedy, in which there isn't some moment where we're all where the healer where all is lost, you know, the, the hero seems that they've given up that they're not going to achieve their goals that that the story is not going to end up and happily, and it doesn't mean you have to have a happy ending. But it does mean that you have to allow your character to experience not funny, loss and pain, but real loss and pain.

Dave Bullis 46:59
Right? So there actually has to be some real stakes, some actual losses, so you don't I mean, so it has to feel like you feel real, and feel that there's actually something at stake here rather than just kind of like, oh, you know, it'll, it'll it'll work out. Or

Steve Kaplan 47:13
it's all silly, so don't worry about it. It can't be, it can't be in Bugs Bunny cartoon, where you shoot bugs in the face with a shotgun and, and hey, there's When the smoke clears, he just has, you know, a bad complexion, but everything else is okay. So, so one of the one of the things that I've noticed in examining a lot of movies to write the book is not only are there moments of loss and pain, near three quarters of the way through, but a lot of movies start off with the characters having, having dealt with loss and pain or, or dealing with loss and pain, starting with, Sleepless in Seattle, where it starts off following the death of Tom Hanks wife, and now he's a widow, or spy with Melissa McCarthy, where, in the first 10 minutes, the hero of the movie Her the person, she idolizes Jude Law who's this very James Bond and kind of spy is is killed, spoiler spoiler alert, seemingly killed, right and right in front of her ears, because she's, she's monitoring everything back to back in Langley, Virginia. That, that a lot of the comedy comes out of real loss and pain, as opposed to well, it's a comedy, so nothing serious can really happen.

Dave Bullis 48:45
You know, and there's a, you know, it was a great example was the hangover. Because, you know, you kind of felt as some actual pressure there, and you know what I mean? Because, because, hey, look, there's a group that we have to find, because, you know, and we're the guys that lost them.

Steve Kaplan 48:59
Right? Actually, I liked parts of the hangover, but it wasn't crazy about the hangover. Precisely. Because those though, you know, especially the Bradley Cooper character was so amoral is like this teacher is drinking and let's just go off and do this thing and let's just party and their relation, none of their relationships. I mean, certainly the Who's the guy who lost the tooth at homes, the right the Ed Helms character, his his relationship is horrible. You don't want him to end up with her. So, so So one of the things that I was not crazy about in the hangover was the lack of, of empathetic characters and and thematic thematic development and resolution.

Alex Ferrari 49:53
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 50:02
And but what was brilliant about the hangover was how it melded a frat boy, Las Vegas Movie with a mystery. And to me that was that was what what made it very special is that once you woke up, and there's a baby and a tiger and how the hell did those things get there? Everything else worked, because they had to, they had to go on this, this mystery, you know, had to solve this, this impossible mystery and the way that they did that can't you know lead them into funnier and funnier situations? For me, the funniest moment is when the I think it's Ken Young, the naked Asian guy jumps out of the trunk of the car. That was funny but but the most satisfying moment of the movie was the was the credits where you see the night you know in all those photographs, you see the night that they went through. And because at the heart of the hangover is a dad that's why hangovers two and three while they might have made money, were aesthetically not very satisfying for me at least. Because there's nothing there. I you know, I don't really care about those guys. And the only guy I might want to care about was in hangover was basically on on a roof loss for for most of the movie. So so so I have to be a somebody who is on the don't love hangover side. Well, I still a great guy. Dang, you're still a wonderful guy, nevertheless.

Dave Bullis 51:47
Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to hold you to that. Steve, by the way, okay. It will I agree the the the hangover sequels Ay, ay, ay. And, you know, this too, when whenever there's a hit movie, you know, there's an inclination in Hollywood to say, hey, you know, let's start churning out those sequels. You know, let's hang over 17 Sounds good to me. Right. But then again, you know, if I was in a position where somebody was like, hey, look, Dave, you if you if you make a hit movie, we'll give you a couple million to write the sequel. I'd be like, you know, I'm gonna write to my hand falls off. You know, I

Steve Kaplan 52:18
think I think I'm with you there. But

Dave Bullis 52:21
yeah, I'll be in my grave writing sequels that movie as long as you've written checks. me there's a comedy idea right there, Steve. There's a comedy story somewhere in there. There's

Steve Kaplan 52:33
a comedy story everywhere. That's that's the whole point. Our lives are comedies, and we just have to be brave enough to tell them.

Dave Bullis 52:43
Yeah. And, you know, that's a very good point, Steve. And, you know, you know, and that's why I made sure to pick up your book, your your other book, The Hidden tools of comedy. By the way, just as a quick side note, the other two episodes of the of the podcast where you're on Steve, they do phenomenal numbers still to this day. Wow. Yeah. So so a year and a year and a half respectively, are still doing great numbers like a you know, when I when I pulled like a three month kind of window of the past downloads, you're always in there. Wow,

Steve Kaplan 53:15
that's great. Well, then we should let people know how to get in touch with me. Where can people find us Steve? People can find me at my website, which is www Kaplan with a K Kaplan comedy comedy with the C. Kaplan comedy or one word Kaplan comedy.com. Or they can email me at Steve at Kaplan comedy.com Or they can find me on Facebook at Kaplan comedy, and or or they can follow me on Twitter at SK comedy.

Dave Bullis 53:49
And I'm going to link to all that in the show notes. Everyone, including a link to Amazon to buy Steve's new book, The comic hero's journey. And his other book, by the way, the hidden quote, The Hidden tools of comedy. Did I say the hidden tools of comics,

Steve Kaplan 54:03
the hidden cool of comedy, which I like even better. I was like, Wait, it

Dave Bullis 54:07
didn't sound right. Wait, next printing.

Steve Kaplan 54:10
That's the that's going to be the new title. Wow. I

Dave Bullis 54:13
think I think I just gave you the next your next book, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 54:17
I'm working on that right now.

Dave Bullis 54:20
And I'm gonna link to everything we talked about in the show notes. Everyone at Dave bullas.com. Twitter, it's at dB podcast. Steve Kaplan, as always, man, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Dave. And be on the lookout for that Jack in the mail, by the way. Okay.

Steve Kaplan 54:35
Third time jacket. You know, there's there aren't a lot of us here.

Dave Bullis 54:39
There's not it's a rare club, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 54:41
Okay, I feel honored.

Dave Bullis 54:43
I have a good one, buddy. You too. Thanks, Dave!

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 406: Unveiling the Art of Screenwriting A Journey with Kristin Overn

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 390: Becoming a Jack of All Trades Writer/Director with Greg Mottola

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 389: From Short Films to Narcos with Josef Kubota Wladyka

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 353: How to Make an Indie Film Against All Odds with Tzvi Friedman

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 348: First-Time Filmmaking, Oscars & Netflix With Scott Copper

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 347: Oscars®, Zombies, James Bond And Tom Hanks With Marc Forster

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 346: Directing The #1 Christmas Film On Netflix With Janeen And Michael Damian

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 343: Can You Make Money with Short Films? (Vidiverse) with Alex Proyas

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 342: Misadventures in Raising Money & Getting Your Film Made with Alex Lehmann

LINKS

SPONSORS

BPS 341: Creating Comedy’s Hero’s Journey with Steve Kaplan

LINKS

SPONSORS

Learn

Podcasts

About

Resources

Social

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

LINKS

SPONSORS

Sign up to receive email updates

Learn

Podcasts

About

Resources

Social