BPS 071: Crafting Complex and Memorable Characters with Karl Iglesias

On today’s show, I wanted to give you a sneak peek of Bulletproof Screenwriting’s first official audiobook Writing for Emotional Impact: Advanced Dramatic Techniques to Attract, Engage, and Fascinate the Reader from Beginning to End (FREE AUDIOBOOK VERSION HERE), published by IFH Books. You’ll get to listen to a free chapter covering how to craft complex and memorable characters, which is over one hour, from this amazing audiobook.

You can’t have a great plot without having amazing characters. Strong character development will evoke emotions in your audience whether you’re writing a comedy, drama, or any other genre. To create great characters, you need your audience to connect in some way. Even if you love your characters, there is no guarantee your reader will connect with them.

If you want to elevate your scripts and stories – AND your screenwriting or filmmaking career— to the highest possible level, this class is a must. Creating characters that people connect with is no easy feat, but it is the key to writing amazing work.

If you don’t know who the author is here’s a bit about him. Karl Iglesias has been a writer for over 20 years now with varying degrees of success — an option here, a couple of contest finalists and winners there, an indie development deal, many writing and script-doctoring assignments, a TV spot for a Coca-Cola campaign — and of course, his first published book, The 101 Habits of Highly Successful Screenwriterswhich ignited my unplanned teaching and consulting career, and his second book, Writing for Emotional Impact. Since then, he has contributed to two other books on the craft, Now Write! Screenwriting and Cut to the Chase.

In between teaching and consulting, Karl keeps busy script doctoring for other writers, directors, and producers when the work comes his way, while developing his own scripts, having about ten projects in various stages of development.

Enjoy your sneak peek of BPS newest audiobook in our on-going screenwriting series. If you want to get a FREE copy just click here and sign up for a free trial account on Audible, download Writing for Emotional Impact and enjoy.

I know you’ll love Karl. I hope this helps you on your screenwriting journey.

 

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:36
Now as many of you guys know, bulletproof screenwriting has released its first book in a series of screenwriting books that I will be putting out very soon. But the first one is writing for emotional impact, which is written by Carl Yglesias is the official first bulletproof screenwriting presents audio book. And I love Carl's a book writing for emotional impact that had such an impact on my life in my screenwriting. And you guys know, he's been a friend of the show. He's been on the show a couple times already and was on the indie film hustle podcast, as well. And his episodes are easily some of the most downloaded episodes ever in both podcasts. So I wanted to give you guys a sneak peek at Carl's and I's new audiobook writing for emotional impact advanced dramatic techniques to attract engage and fascinate the reader from beginning to end. And in this episode, I share with you almost an hour of this book, and it is all about crafting complex and memorable characters. After I listened to this book for the first time, I was blown away at Carl's insights into character and how to craft characters that pop off the page and really engage the reader. And if you wait to the end, I will tell you how you can get a free copy of this book. So without any further ado, please enjoy your sneak peek at writing for emotional impact with Carl Yglesias.

Karl Iglesias 4:07
Looking at today's workshop, we'll be talking about connecting emotion with characters, the most important thing to do in a script. The build reveal connect process the six key questions for building character how to reveal character on the page. The three elements of character appeal and techniques lots of techniques today you'll you'll get for instant connection with with a character. But this is what it's all about in a screenplay when and even when you go to the movies you bond with a character and the reason you stay from beginning to end is because you want your the character and you want the character to get what he or she wants. So connecting the with the characters what actually allows you to do that. And it's what it's what gets the interest of the reader throughout the script. So the techniques were connected thing with a character is the most important thing, I think. So it's all about characters. Obviously, without characters, there's no story. They attach talent to your project. If you know anything about Hollywood stars are what drives the industry, meaning that when a star attaches himself or herself to your script, it's pretty much a guaranteed Greenlight, meaning is going to go into production. If Tom Cruise wanted to make the yellow pages, it would get made for summer release, okay? So it's, it's a really smart thing to do to, to focus on a character in a story. Okay, once you have your concept, start thinking about your characters, okay. And write a character that a star would want to play. They also sell scripts, because studios have deals with stars. And so they're always looking for material for characters. So that's what they focus on when they try to evaluate a script. Now, there are many techniques for creating characters. But the key here is emotional connection with your character, as I said earlier, so let's talk about emotional connection for a little bit. You've probably heard that term identification, right? When you see a movie, and somehow you don't really like it, something missing in it, and you say, Well, what's wrong, so I didn't really identify with the character, right? Or people say, well, the characters suck, you know, there's no character I could identify with. So what it means then is attachment to a particular character. Okay. When readers read a script, they find themselves becoming attached to a particular character, based on their traits, on their wants, on their goals, who they are their attitude. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. But the important thing is attachment. And the important thing is caring for the character. Frank Capra once said, The whole thing is you've got to make them care about somebody. That is the key. So when we say there's no one in the in the script that you could identify with, it just means that there was nobody that I cared for. I didn't care if they got what they want, I didn't care. You know, if they were on, you know, they were being chased by killers just didn't care, right. And so there's no connection. And the third one is empathy. The connection to characters happens through empathy. This is similar to sympathy. But Empathy means that you're, you're like really bonded with a character, meaning whatever they want, you want, whatever they feel you feel, right. We become him are the character, we like him. So let's go through this process, I was talking about building character, revealing character and connecting character. Now, you'll notice they're all in different font sizes. And I put them this way, because the order of importance, as I said, and this should be very clear to you guys, most books and seminars talk about building a character, which is important, you need to build a character. And I'll go through that a little bit. More important, though, is how to how you reveal the character on the page. Because you could have a great character, and you could have a whole Dosia on the bio and tell him tell me, you know, who they are, where they came from, what type of character they are, what they think their beliefs are psychology, the sociology, the relationships, etc, etc, we can have like pages and pages on the character, which is great. But if you don't reveal him on the page, and you don't know how to reveal it on the page, it doesn't work. Okay. And then, of course, even more important than that is how you connect with the character. And there are techniques available as a writer that you can use that instantly connect you or the reader to a character. And I'll explain in a little bit when I go through that this is the reason why you could have a character that's not quote likable, a villain, for example, and you can still have the real connect with them. Okay.

All right. So let's talk about building a character. Now, there are two schools of thoughts. One is, if you have the time, spent a lot of time building a character by job dossier. The other one, the other school of thought is a professional writer with a deadline, they don't have time to do this. So what they do is they ask themselves, the six key questions and I'll go through each of the key quick key questions. Those that do have the time I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that, but it just really takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. And you've seen that in books. It's something like this basically. Right physical characteristics, you know, name, age, gender, height, their social characteristics, their psychological characteristics there culturals you know, ethnic background education, etc, etc. You can spend months doing this and It's fine if you have the time. But there's a quicker way to do this. All right, the six questions. Very first one is who is my character? As you plan your character as you build your character, ask yourself that question. And this is the basic traits of a character. This includes coming up with positive traits, some neutral traits, some negative traits, what they believe in that kind of thing, okay, and this can be done really quickly. Now, you should also think about the type of character he is. And now a lot of people talk about this, but the reason I talk about that is because there's only four types of characters that you can create, okay? And each of these types have a corresponding emotion, instantly through it. So it's important to know, for example, if you create some point, that's a hero. And by hero, I mean someone who whose skills are higher than anyone else than the reader, for example, or the the average viewer. Okay? This includes characters like James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, right, Indiana Jones, right? These are heroes. And the automatic emotion the reader gets out of that is admiration we admire characters who have all these extra skills that we don't have like superheroes, right? Spider Man, Superman, Batman. Okay. The next type of type of character is the average Joe. And these are basically all the characters that have the same skills and traits as anybody else. They're the average Joe. And that leads you to sympathy. Right? We sympathize. We relate because they're like us. And most characters are average Joe's the underdog, which leads to compassion and admiration, right? When we think of Rocky, for example, he was an underdog. And these are characters who have or don't have the skills that average people have, right. They're a little shyer than others. They're a little less intelligent than others, but they have the drive. And so that leads to admiration and compassion to we feel sorry for them, but we want them to win. And if you know, obviously, if you know from successful movies, a lot of them dealt with underdogs. That's what makes us admire them. And then the last type of character you can write is the lost soul or antihero. And that gives us pity as an emotion. So when you create a character, try to figure out what type of character they are, most of them will be the average Joe, but you have at least four to choose from, and you know, the type of emotions they get that are automatically generated by them. So be very careful about that. And the last soul antihero is the character who basically becomes darker and darker and actually has a tragic ending. Okay, like taxi driver, for example. Lester in American Beauty, actually wasn't an antihero, but the upcoming Star Wars, right. Darth Vader is a antihero lost soul. Okay. So who's my characters? Your first question. Next question is very important as you build your character is what does he or she want. And by the way, I'm just going to use he from now on, it's easier. It just means all characters including male, female, I don't want to seem sexist or anything. So what does he want? That's desire.

And if you've read the books, if you've taken some classes, you know that the key to conflict is desire plus obstacle equals conflict, right? Which to me equals emotion. A character wants something is having difficulty getting it that is the basis of all stories. So, if you want maximum motion, right, which is what you want in script, you can say that maximum intensity of desire plus maximum intensity of obstacle equals maximum emotion, right. So when you think about what a character wants, make sure it's not average, right? Make sure it's a really great desire. And also make sure that there's a lot of great obstacles to it. Because if there aren't, then that's not really compelling. So there's not a lot of emotion. Give your characters and not only your character but all your characters a goal at all times. Having a goal is what really creates interest in on the page. When when a reader read something and famous author Kurt Vonnegut once said, give your characters a goal at all times, even if it's a glass of water. Okay? Because wanting something is what creates that drive. And if you put an obstacle then we have interesting drama, right? So when you give your character, something in a scene to want and a goal and an obstacle, then you have interest. So think about that. Okay. Desire versus need. Remember that desire is not always needed. I see a lot of writers that actually mistake the two. And Silence of the Lambs for example, Clarice desire, what is Clarice desire? They want? She wants to catch Buffalo Bill, right? What is her need, though? Her need is to silence the lambs in her head from our past, right? to different things. Okay, the next question is, why does he want it and this this motivation. The reader needs to understand why your character wants something. Motivation is the mental force that forces us to act. When it comes to motivation, the only person you should know about this is really interesting is Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I don't know if anybody's heard of this. But if you ever want to know all the needs that human beings have studied Abraham Maslow, he was a psychologist who created this hierarchy of needs. And he basically put them in a ladder list with the hierarchy comes from, he basically puts out the sacraments, physiological needs on top. And this actually, self actualization needs in the bottom. And basically, his theory was that, when we have we all have motivations, we all have needs and desires, and that our very first desires is always the physiological ones, you know, safety, food, water, shelter, and then we won't, we won't worry about the other needs, until we actually get the first one. So there's actually a hierarchy from bottom to top as we go along. So there's safety needs, there's belonging, there's self is self esteem. There's cognitive needs, and there's self actualization needs. And the reason this is important, not only to understand not only to understand the motivation of human beings and why they want something, okay, but actually, I don't have it deals with basically, it's important because of the stakes. And stakes is what's at stake for the character. How badly does he want it? What is the character prepared to do to get what they want, I read a lot of scripts where I understand what the character wants, I understand why they want it. But there's nothing at stake for the character, meaning that if the character fails, there's nothing bad that's going to happen as a result. And so it's not important to us, we don't care. Some people call it the or else factor. And the reason they call it there is because the character must do something, or else something bad will happen. Okay. So established dire consequences, the higher you going the ladder that I showed you the hierarchy of needs, the more compelling the stakes, and goes, the stakes get higher as you go up from bottom to top. Okay? And if you know what are the highest stakes there are for human beings is life or death, right. And those are right here, Survival Food, water. So if you start the higher you go on that list, the higher the stakes, if you want to come up with stakes, just keep going up and up and up.

So it doesn't always have to be about survival, you know, could be about safety could be about security. It could be about belonging and need and love, right? Some people's have a need to be loved and have to be their stake. If they don't, if they don't get the girl, they're going to die emotionally. Okay, next question. The fifth question is What's his problem? And this is what we deal with the inner needs, the flaws of the character, the fears, the secrets. For example, in Star Wars, right, Luke character feels the need for adventure. Rocky feels the need to be like he is somebody could be a need for self worth, self esteem. characters could have flaws, obviously. All this actually is in the books. If you read a book on creating character. This is all the stuff they talk about. This is the building part of it. The flaws obviously often relate to the character arc, and I'll talk about character arc in a second. That's the sixth question, right? When a character is flawed, right, we want to Want to see how their journey to the end changes them. So when you think about the flaw that usually gives you the the character arc you can pit the flaw against the need. Let's see the character in as good as it gets, right the Jack Nicholson character, his flaw is that he just hates humans. He just wants to be left alone. Right? But what is his need? His need is that he needs love, it needs to connect with a character. Okay. And when you pit those two against each other, that creates a really interesting conflict. Right? So always think about if you can have a when you create a flaw in a character, if you create the need as the opposite of it, you have you can you have the potential for interesting material. So that leads us to the famous character arc, everybody talks about the character arc. How does the character change? While we're fascinated by characters who change? In other words, why is this important at the emotional level? And executives will always ask you this, if they don't understand how a character changes or when you pitch something they always want to know how does the character change? It's very important for them. And I'll tell you in a second why it's so important. Because I've seen riders I've seen scripts where they don't don't really care about that they feel well, Indiana Jones never changes man actually does. But James Bond never changes. Okay, so they figure Hey, you know, I don't want to deal with that. It's too psychological mumbo jumbo I don't care about, but let me tell you why it's important. The very first reason is because it stimulates our curiosity. Now curiosity, and I'll do that in the story seminar is one of the most important emotions in storytelling. Okay. So when you have a character that has a flaw, and you can see that he's gradually changing, it stimulates our curiosity, we want to know how is he going to change? So let's use the the Melvin Udall character, the Jack Nicholson character and as good as it gets, right. This is a character that's introduced, and he's had lots of flaws. Okay. And we want to know, how is he going to change because we know he's interested in, you know, the Helen Hunt character. So we're curious. So right away, we're connected, right? So that's one important thing. It also adds conflict. In a story when somebody has flaws. It creates conflicts in scenes. It's also a model for improvement. As you know, stories are metaphors for life. They're metal, they're like teaching us how to live in a sense. Okay. So when we see a character that's flawed, and we see him go through this journey, it kind of gives a model for us to see how change goes, we'd like we might recognize ourselves in that character, right. A negative change is a cautionary tale. When we deal with an antihero, for example, who just keeps going darker and darker, who doesn't change, or changes for the worst? It's a cautionary tale for us, meaning that it tells us Do not act like this character, or else this will happen to you. It adds a sense of significance in the story, meaning that you feel after you've read the script of seeing the movie for two hours, and you see a character change, it makes you feel that this story was significant. Meaning that there was a reason why that story was told. And I don't feel I wasted my time because I saw somebody change through the journey. Now let me talk a little bit about arc versus a moment of change. Because what I see a lot in scripts is the writers understand that a character must change. And so they write this script, but they have one scene at the end where the character changes in the changes dramatically, right? And that doesn't work. The reason doesn't work. Because arc, you know what an arc is, right? An arc is not just one moment, it's a gradual thing. So you got to be careful when you plot the journey of the character and the changes, plot the changes throughout that journey to the gradual changes, you want it to be a gradual thing, not a moment of change, because it's not as believable. So these are your six questions that you should ask yourself. And these six questions should give you enough material to create a great character and what they you know, their journey you have everything you need, their, their traits, their desire, their motivation, their stakes, their inner need, or flaws or fears if you have them and their character arc, okay, so you don't have to go the whole, you know, bio, all these things are not that important unless they're actually important to the story. Okay, so let's go to the second main area of the process, which is the revealing a character process and that's also very important. So to give you a six tools to reveal character. Now, everything that I talked about about building a character is fine and important, but if you don't know how to reveal on the page, it doesn't work. Right. You wasted your time. So the first one you have there's only six ways you can you can reveal character on a page, first one is description and name. Okay, you describe a character on the page, hopefully in your description of the character should give us a little idea about the character right there. So it's a good way to reveal the character, and also their name. A lot of people don't think about how powerful a name could be when you come up with a name. I can't tell you how many Joe Smith I see. And scripts, I mean, it's just, you know, boring, if you can come up with something that's really interesting. And also, a lot of times I see, I know, some writers who really take the time to think about a name of the character, it actually means something, you know, there's a reason why an unforgiving they're clean character clean. This was characters called William money. Okay? Because it was all about that. That's what he needed. That's what he wanted. Okay? All right. Contrast is a huge tool you have at your disposal, you can write a whole book on that, because it creeps up in a lot of different areas. Okay? Contrast for revealing a character, for example, you can do that contrast within himself. Okay? In other words, come up with two contrasting trades, okay, and you can reveal them, either, you know, reveal one and reveal the other. And that contrasting one on trade gives you more power on the other one, like for example, like in painting, if you you can count, if you have blue, and you surrender with yellow, it just intensifies the blue. Okay? So same thing, if you contrast one trade with another, it intensifies the other one. So contrast with himself, you can also contrast the character with other characters. Okay. And that means surrounding a character with characters that are the opposite. This is the reason why buddy pictures are really popular, because they usually make sure that the two characters are the opposite of each other. And then you, you see the sparks fly. Okay, and you can contrast a character with his environment. And this is the famous fish out of water concept. You can reveal characters through other characters. One of the most fascinating areas for writers in dealing with scenes is relationships. Right? A lot of people forget about relationships, they have characters in scripts, and they're always by themselves. And they always do things by themselves. And it's just more interesting if you have relationships and explore relationships in, in a story. So how other characters talk about him is a way to reveal a character and this way called gossip and how others are affected by him. And that's the relationships. Okay? If you show a character affected by human character that tells us something about the main character. Dialogue obviously, is a great way to reveal character. And I won't go into the depths of depth of dialogue. I'll do that in my my dialogue class. But obviously, individual dialogue reveals something about character, okay? If the character's voice is unique, it'll tell us something about the character. Tell us where they from, you know what class they are, etc, etc. One of the most important ways to reveal characters actions, reactions and decisions. You can reveal character through the choices they make, especially if the choices are made under pressure.

If a character has a dilemma, for example, dilemmas are something that a lot of writers talk about. Okay? The reason it's so interesting is because the dilemma is a choice between two Lesser Evils for example, we don't know which choice they have, they have to go how many people see 24 I've seen the show 24 Beside last night, that was like the last five minutes right. That was where I go the most intense dilemmas I've ever seen anywhere in the history of storytelling really, it really was a great episode. For those who has haven't seen it, the the Jack Bauer Jack Bauer character brings in a Chinese dissident who was working with the terrorists and needs that the information about where the bomb is or where the villain is, and the character is dying. The Chinese guy has a bullet in just dying and he's bringing him to the to the I guess the hospital, the place where they the surgeon, and the surgeon is actually operating on the boyfriend or the ex husband of Jack Bauer's girls girlfriend at the time right now and she's like, we just figured out that you know, the girlfriend is about to go back with the guy who's like about to be operated right so there's the choice there this check bar comes in he needs the information or where the bomb is or else millions of people will die. But the surgeon is busy operating on the guy that we care about too Right? So he has to make a choice and at the point you know Jabbar actually points a gun at the surgeons and I need to operate on that knowing that if he switches bodies, the other guy will die and then the girlfriend will hate him and boy that was so Really, anyway was really intense, really intense. But that's a perfect example of dilemma. Right? That was a huge dilemma. Okay? Do I say Oh, and by the way, the guy that was being operated saved his life, meaning that he really cared about that character. But he had to make a choice, he had to make a choice, either save him, or save millions of people.

Alex Ferrari 30:20
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Karl Iglesias 30:31
Okay, so the lemma is actions, we actually decisions tell you about the character, okay. And actually 24 is a perfect example. Because the jack character every hour makes all these decisions are technically dilemmas, right. And that kind of tells you a lot about a character. In that there's a trick that a pretty big name writers told me about, it's called a three column brainstorming trick. And you guys will be happy to learn this one. If you don't know it. It's basically you make three columns. First column, you label what I know about a character is called traits and attitudes, right? In the first column, what do I know about the character? Let's, let's say for example, I know my character, his approval, for example. Okay. Now, you're not going to tell us that the character is frugal on the page. That will be telling us, right, you want to show that the second column you're going to label? How do I know this? How do I know my character is frugal, and that's basically exposition. And so how do I know for example, that my character is frugal? Okay, you could have them, you know, at a restaurant, for example, and, you know, trying to like, there with a calculator is there with a friend trying to figure out how to split the bill, for example. Okay. So that's the exposition, okay, and then how will I show it is the third column? Actually, the second column, the third column is pretty similar, because how do I know it is also could be known through how you show it, and that would be the characters actions. Okay. So in this case, in the restaurant, when the character behaves in a way that shows he is frugal that tells the reader that he's frugal, you don't have to say the word frugal at all in the whole thing, right? You let the reader decide. So what do I know about the character? How will I know how do I know that? And how will I show it is a good way to reveal that and mannerisms are, you know, a little takes that the characters have like, for example, when we introduce Don Corleone in The Godfather? What do we see? Right we see him stroking a cat. Okay. That's a mannerism that's the cat is the prop in this case. Remember Kramer's entrances in Seinfeld? Gate. Those were his mannerism. He had the same manner of entering drastically into Seinfeld's apartment right. And that was a way of showing character. Indiana Jones whip is a prop. Colombo's raincoat is a prop tells a lot about the character. CO Jack's lollipop is a prop. Graduate Marx cigar, for example. Right? So mannerism props are little things you can add to a character throughout that tells us something about the character good way to reveal the character. Okay, moving on to the most important part of this seminar. And that is connecting with a character how do we connect with the character? And why do we want to connect with the character, the very first thing you need to know is that it happens really fast. The reason we recommend writers to introduce their main character as soon as possible, is because the reader automatically they're waiting to bond with the character or same with an audience. Imagine you're in a theater, the very first thing you want to do is connect with a character. It's a natural human thing to do. So the very first character you see in a movie or an on a page on a script, you go oh, is this the main character and you automatically connect? Okay, you want him to follow that character and see what he wants? And then if you see, okay, that's not an important character, like if you, you know, introduce a waitress or some URI, okay, the waiter that the waitress is not and so now, you know, you're trying to find another character to bandwidth so it happens really fast. And I'll show you what happens to, to, to a reader when they connect with a character. And the reason it's important is because if it's not your main character, then you know, it's actually a negative thing. Okay? I've had a lot of scripts were with the character was not important, but they if we follow them for about five pages, that's five minutes of screen time. And then we realize that's not the main character, we feel frustration, and that's not good. Okay, so be careful happens really fast. We're critical. We're an opinionated human race, basically. And the second character shows up on screen, we already start building an opinion about the character. Okay? So why is empathy so important? It gives us a more intense emotional experience in the theater and on the page.

For example, when you hear about a jetliner that crashed, for example, and 200 people died, you feel sympathy for the carrier, you feel sad for the characters. But if you know that one of your friends were on that flight, that's a different reaction, right? In other words, the emotional intensity of that is more is more intense, because you knew that person was you, you were bonded with a character. Okay? So when you connect with a character, their journey is our journey. It's no longer their story. It's our story. Okay, when you connect with Indiana Jones, you're falling, it's you going through all these emotions. Let me go real quick through the three elements of connection. The three elements that create character appeal, the very first one is recognition, which creates empathy. And by recognition, I mean, we understand we recognize that character, if we see their traits, for example, we recognize those traits, if they say they want something, and we feel it's valuable, then we want that for them. And so we recognize that and we connect with the characters to the recognition. This is why you see a lot of scenes where the character has a speech along the lines along the lines that I want. I always wanted I dream of, you know, when the character says what they want, we're supposed to empathize without we understand them. fascination is the other element of character appeal. And that generates interest. Going back to our Jack Nicholson character, for example, you know, as good as it gets, right, you can say that that was the most fascinating characters in film history, right? And the reasons for that are actually let me go through each one real quick. Recognition, fascination and mystery. About a character which creates curiosity and anticipation are the three elements. Okay, so recognition is the reader understand what your character wants. The reader recognizes the emotions expressed in a scene. When you see a character that you care about feel sadness, we recognize that and we empathize. Sympathize also. Okay, fascination which leads to interest. So let's look at a Jack Nicholson character, for example. And the way a character can become fascinating is through paradoxes. And by that I mean, conflicting traits, right man when I talk about contrast, right. So paired conflicting traits within the character gives you a paradox. attitudes and values is a way to create fascination. And attitudes are the points of view that a character has about the world. You want to also add details and complexity to a character. Pay attention to the details. I have a quote here by Joe Esther has. I like to see the grades into character. I like characters who have one front and many, many layers underneath. I like complexity. I like to surprise people with different facets of personality. I like the surprises within the characters, the contradictions, right? That's the paradox. You can certainly see these types of characters in in in Joyce who has his work jagged edge, Basic Instinct.

Okay. Can we talk about villains a little bit? Because there's a lot of controversy in the screenwriting world where characters, you know, you hear a lot of characters have to be likable. Okay. And on the other hand, they say that, the more fascinating the villain, the more interesting your script, which is true. Okay. So they will the problem is that they create heroes that are really likable, and are kind of like vanilla, right? They're like really boring. And they create villains who are like, really, really bad, right? So what they don't understand is that the more fascinating the villain, the more interesting the story, but knowing that how you create fascination is creating all these things. Right? How do you do that? And so let me talk a little bit about how you do that. And it also explains how you could create a story that's really interesting. With a character that's technically a villain A good example of this is the Godfather, The Sopranos, right? Tony Soprano. You don't really morally agree with what they do, but they're a fascinating character. And the reason is fascinating is because of all these elements are just talked about the way to do this with villains. And how do you how do you empathize with villains is that you basically add some appealing qualities to the villain. And I was don't be afraid to have the villain. In the case of Tony Soprano, for example, the reason we kind of found that it was fascinating we liked him is because the villain had a family and he loved his family and you love this kids. Okay? Another example is Hannibal Lecter and so on. So the lambs, this is a character that became a pop icon, right, culturally, and this was a psycho killer cannibal. How is that possible? Right? How did it became big? The reason for that is because the writer gave him some good, quote, attractive qualities. Okay, not only was he a killer, but he was also, you know, polite, right? He was charming. He was witty, he cared about Clarice, you wanted to help her. Those are positive qualities. Okay. And this shows you how you can create somebody that you don't actually relate to, in a sense, but because you have these qualities in this character, you at least think that they're fascinating, you want to follow them. Okay. And this is very important, because I've read a lot of scripts where the intention of the writer was not what was on the page, meaning that they created a character that was supposed to be a villain. And we ended up liking him at the end. And the writer could not understand why was it possible that was the effect the fact of the scene, and then when actually, you know, was consulting with that writer and tell them Well, this is the reason why we like him, and boom, boom, boom, and go out. Okay? Okay. And the reason was because they were giving him good qualities, in addition to the bad ones, okay? But this is how important it is and how empathizing is such a powerful thing. So if you give the villain attractive and appealing human qualities, at least it balances that it makes the character more fascinating. Okay, the third element of appeal, character appeal is mystery.

which generates curiosity. In other words, every time you can set up a question

about the character, that's a good thing, because it creates curiosity. Okay. And that involves, for example, what makes the character tick? And what will they do next? You're in a great position as a writer in your story, if you can create that feeling of what will the character do next? I'm so fast with that character. I just don't know what makes them tick. Okay. You see that a lot in Quentin Tarantino's characters, for example, in Reservoir Dogs, there's a lot of characters who are so like unstable, you just don't know what they're going to do next. And you're just like glued to the stream? Right? Trying to find out what's going to happen. You can create mystery curiosity through the character emotions. Meaning if you know, if you don't know what they're feeling, you want to find out what they're feeling okay, in the scene. And there are specific ways you can create and control those emotions and that through the action reactions and interactions of the character in the scene. Another way is think about the events that would elicit a particular emotional reaction from the character. If I want to make a character angry, for example, I want to show that the character is angry.

What event would create what event would elicit that reaction, that emotional reaction and that's how you create character emotions in a story.

Okay, now we're getting to the real good stuff, the instant connection humanizing with a character, which a lot of people have called a rooting interest, right? When you root for a character. How do you create that instant connection with the character no matter what character it is, whether it's a villain was a hero, or it's a minor character, obviously, you want it for your main character. If you can get the reader to connect emotionally with that character, you're way ahead. And I'm going to give you the most powerful techniques right now. Of how you can do that and this happens instantly. You will recognize after I go through all this you will recognize this techniques in movies when you see it, okay, you won't actually I always warn people before the tech my seminars, tell them you will never see a movie the same way again, because you will see those things on the screen. Once you know what they are, you will see them but that's what you need to do, right? You're like a magician. If you see a magic trick, right? And you're like, wow, but the illusion if somebody explains that trick to you, you see the trick again, it's not the same, right? Well, this is what's going to happen. Okay? So I warn you, if you guys don't want to see that, you can leave. Okay, or turn turn DVD off. All right. Okay, there are four, actually three areas. And I'm gonna I'm going to tell you what the areas are and give you these specific techniques. The most powerful one is that we care about characters we feel sorry for. Every time you feel sorry for a character, we instantly connect with a character, you can take somebody who you totally hate. And if you suddenly you do something that makes us feel sorry for that character, we not like him for that particular instant. Every time you feel sorry for a character you instantly connect with a character. We also like characters who have humanistic traits. And the third one is we like characters who have qualities we all admire. And I'll go through each one of them. Okay, let's start with we care about characters we feel sorry for the very first one is undeserved mistreatment and injustice. Every time you create a scene or an event for character, that is technically a mystery, mistreatment of that character, okay, something that's unjust. Okay, we feel sorry for that character. So show others unjustly mistreating a hero, this creates pity. And also if you add brutality to that, it the bonus points on that actually say that bonus points for a defenseless character. If the character is defenseless, it creates more sympathy. So one of the reasons why we felt a little connection to Hannibal Lecter is because if you remember the prior scene prior to when Clarice wants to want to see a Hannibal Lecter. He was set up as the most great Hannibal the cannibal. They were setting him up as this totally evil, scary character right. But when she got to it, we saw how he was mistreated by the psychologist and suddenly we had we felt a little sorry for Hannibal Lecter. Okay, so that was the first time when you create undeserved misfortune now by misfortune I mean bad luck tragedy when somebody loses somebody dear to them, we feel sorry for them. When a loved one dies when your your house gets repossessed, for example, okay, bad luck. One of the ways we're connected with the Kimball character the Harrison Ford character in the future because it starts and how does it start? He just lost his wife his wife just got murdered okay. So this is how the rider may did it undeserved misfortune. Now obviously the opposite of that is that if it is deserved misfortune, right which we see that in a villain at the end he gets his his do we don't feel sorry we feel actually feel happy right? So the key point here is undeserved. Okay, when a character has physical or mental handicapped think of my left foot Rain Man Forrest Gump stars love these roles by the way, this is what gets him Academy Awards. Right so if you can add that to your character, we feel sorry for them. Anytime you set up frustration or humiliation in a character that's embarrassment when a character feels embarrassed in a scene think how many times in American Beauty in the beginning when they're setting up, Lester, when they're setting up scenes where he's embarrassed right when it comes out at his house and he drops his you know, his attache case and all the papers right? Go over and the wife insults him and his daughter insults him that's a key connecting point right there. Okay, embarrassment.

moment of weakness. Anytime you depict the hero when he's at a weak point, we feel sorry for them. You see that usually in the end of the second act when the character is at his lowest point and that could be any suffering, whether it's mental, psychological emotional suffering.

Okay, abandonment when a character is abandoned by loved ones, for example, think of home alone, right. Kramer versus Kramer the beginning when they his wife abandons the husband and the kid we feel sorry for them. Oliver Twist is a perfect example of being abandoned by parents. When a character is betrayed, we feel sorry for them. So betrayal is a pretty good technique. Think of in the verdict, when we realize that his girlfriend is actually working for the opposition, right? That moment we feel sorry for the Paul Newman character. This is something that writers like to do, telling the truth but not being believed, is a pretty powerful technique. Think of North by Northwest when he's trying to tell everybody this day he's, you know, he's being chased by spies. Nobody believes him. His mother doesn't believe him in Beverly Hills Cop when he's trying to tell the police that you know, Victor maintenance or whatever his name was, is a bad guy. Nobody believes him. Think of ghosts. Right? When the Whoopi Goldberg characters trying to warn them or tell him something and she's not being believed? Every time you're like desperately trying to make somebody believe something that they don't believe you will feel sorry for you. All right, moving on. We have exclusion and rejection. Every time you have the excluded outsider who wants in to a club or a family and they're not letting him in. Spielberg does that in the boy Neeti when he tries to play with his friends with his brother and his friends and they won't let him in. They won't let him be part of the group and we feel sorry for him. Along the same lines, we have loneliness and neglect. When we open Citizen Kane and the characters dying alone, we feel the Jack Nicholson's character in as good as it gets his loneliness we feel that because he is obsessive compulsive. So loneliness is a pretty good emotional connector. Feeling guilty when making a mistake that causes pain to another person. We saw that in Finding Nemo for example, where the father felt sorry, felt responsible for the loss of his son. Right. You also saw that in Spider Man where spider man felt guilty for the murder of his uncle, he felt that he was responsible for letting the burglar leave and actually ended up killing his uncle.

So whenever a character feels guilty that he made a mistake which caused pain another character.

When a character represses pain throughout a story, we feel sorry for them. Perfect example of that is the Rick Lang character in Casablanca, replacing the pain of his last love in Paris. And also in Sleepless in Seattle, where Tom Hanks is repressing the pain of his last wife. And then I saved the most common one, the most powerful one for last and last. And that's life engagement. Every time you put your character in danger, we're instantly connected and we care. Jeopardy is always works. Okay, we'll move on to the second category, which is we like characters who have humanistic traits. So every time you show a character who lets down his defenses in a private moment, and that concludes the villain too. And it was kind of a cliche, but now well, we saw that in the getaway, where the villain those Michael Madsen, player, Michael Madsen, is really nasty villain. And then there's a little moment where he has a little kitten, you know, an actual talk a little bit about that, that's called petting the dog. But anytime, you know, it shows that he cared about an animal. So that's showing his humanity in private moment. And if you show the amount in a private moment, and then that privacy is invaded, and he's humiliated on top of that, that's bonus points right there. So you can combine the two when the villain invades the privacy and humiliates the hero, because that creates extra sympathy for the bill for the hero and you know enmity for the loading for the villain. Anytime you show a character that helps a less fortunate Mother Teresa for example. Anybody who works with animals anybody that has seen short circuit, the Allie Sheedy character where she has the stable of animals, you just can't say no, right? She takes care of the less fortunate. That's the humanistic trait. When you relate to children when you like him when your character likes children and when children like the character this was done very well in Jerry Maguire okay, I was I talked earlier about but patting the dog. This is a very, very, very common technique and you got to do it really well or else it's really cliche and obvious and that's when a character likes an animal and you know Pat's the dog and this works also when the animal lacks the character and because you know animals are supposedly are able to tell innocence right? So if if, you know you could have somebody you think is a villain, but if the dog or a cat like some, then you feel okay is not that bad, because they can sense these things right. Now, interestingly, this doesn't work with cats. Because of the vibe they give, how many times have you seen the villain right? Who has a cat? Right? The hairless cat especially the hairless cat, right, like Blofeld? You know, in James Bonds, right? There's something about cats or dogs that look like rats basically. Okay, anytime a character has a change of heart. You know, where's like, when they're opposed to something for a partner for a certain time, and then they change their mind. When they help a friend, when they come to the aid of a friend, Han Solo at the end of Star Wars is a perfect example. Think about the reaction we had as a crowd when Han Solo who all this time said not want anything to do with you guys at the end comes in and saves Luke from Darth Vader, right. And along the same lines of that, when they risk their life for another human being. That's a humanistic trait. When they actually sacrifice themselves, and actually die for another human being. When a character fights for a just cause anytime a character thinks or cares about something that's important to them that's outside of themselves when they care about something else a cause. And when they die for that, cause that's very powerful. Right? Remember Braveheart at the end, he died for the cause. When a character is ethical or moral. That's a humanistic tray. Especially when they're faced with temptation, and

they refuse that they overcome that. We like them. When they're also dependable and loyal and responsible. That's a humanistic trait. And when they love other people, family and friends, you see that a lot in romantic comedies when you need to set up a character. Right in the beginning, you have to set up two characters in the first act and the romantic comedy of disruptive man and the woman. And so there's a lot of these techniques you see, because it needs to be done real quick, real quick, you know, enough time to really take your time to develop the character. And the first thing you see usually is, you know, they love other people. Okay? And other people love them. Actually, there's gonna be a technique in later on, but you see him right there like you know, the whole lot of friends and family loved them and stuff. And that's a way to, for us to like the character. And basically any nurturing act kind of covers everything else. We've talked about any kind of acting, kindness, caring any act of generosity. You know, when somebody tucks in the tuck somebody in cares when somebody when they heal a wounded especially if it's a child. Any act of altruism, selflessness, compassion, kindness, those are humanistic traits. Okay, so that was the second set of techniques. And we're gonna go to the third one, which is we like characters who have qualities we all admire. First one is power and charisma. Somebody who's a leader think about Patton think about Lawrence of Arabia, Braveheart. Okay, so there, it could be power over other people. Always powerful over other people like in The Godfather, Citizen Kane, Wall Street, could be power over what needs to be done if somebody is powerful enough to always do what needs to be done. We like that. And any character who has the power to express his feelings knows he doesn't care what anybody thinks. Right? They're so secure in themselves that they can say whatever they want, like the character in Beverly Hills Cop. We like it because it just says whatever. on his mind, he doesn't care about the repercussions. Same with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Jack Nicholson's character. Okay, somebody who's courage who has courage, we admire people who are courageous, who have the courage to solve their problems. And that could be physical courage or mental courage. Now, it doesn't have to be courage, like, you know, like a soldier's courage. But a character was courageous enough to take on the journey to solve the problem. Someone who's passionate, we admire that someone who's attractive, someone who's skilled at what he does. When you create a character in a particular field, their job if you can make him that they're the most skilled at what they does that they were in high demand. That's something we admire in characters. And you see that also a lot in romantic comedies, where the character whatever job they're in, they're the best at what they do.

Somebody who's thoughtful and wise. So thoughtfulness and wisdom is a good technique. Somebody who's witty and clever. A lot of the Eddie Murphy roles fit that category, somebody who has a sense of humor, somebody who's playful. physicality and athleticism. Anybody who's physical, anybody who's athletic, could be a dancer could be a sports person. Carrying on despite vulnerabilities, even when not forced, somebody is wounded, and still continues on, we admire that. Now, as long as they're not forcing somebody puts a gun to their head, then okay, they're forced to do it. But if they're not forced, and they still gone, we admire that. So especially like if they're handicapped, for example, and they still know well, how can I still do it? Anyone who's eccentric somebody has a unique way of living. Think of Amelie, for example, when the reasons we liked her so much. Free Spirit. We talked about underdogs earlier. Any underdog who tries hard, it seems everyone loves an underdog thing. It's ingrained in our DNA. We see that a lot in beginner scripts where the character is just passive. They just always react to something. And it's fine in the first act. But in the second act, it's got to be something that's you know, more active with with the character takes action to solve their problem. And I spoke with this little earlier that was surrounded by others who adore him. That's the probably the most common technique. Because it's quick and easy. It actually makes sense in a scene surrounded by others who adore him. And you see that a lot in romantic comedies, because it's the quickest way. In short, I've given you 50 techniques that you have at your disposal to connect instantly with the character. And this is very important for your main character, very important for the reader to connect with a character so that, you know, we follow their journey to the end, and we care about them. Because if we don't care about them, you know, that falls flat. So basically, make sure you can you make us feel sorry for that character. Make sure you give your character humanistic traits and give your characters characteristics that we all admire, and you should be all set. So good luck to you.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:44
I hope you enjoyed your sneak peek of writing for emotional impact. And if you want to get a free copy of it, all you got to do is head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 071. There you will find a link to a free copy of the audiobook on audible.com. Now if you do not have an account with audible.com already, you can sign up for a free 30 day trial. And during that trial, you can download this book for free. If you want to go directly to that all you have to do is go to free film book calm, and that takes you directly to the free trial. Or if you just want to buy the book outright. Just head over to the show notes. I hope this episode has helped you on your screenwriting path guys. I do love Carl. And that's why I wanted this book to be the first book and a soon to be coming series of audio books by amazing authors in the screenwriting space. So thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 070: The Secrets of Story with Matt Bird

You’ve just boarded a plane. You’ve loaded your phone with your favorite podcasts, but before you can pop in your earbuds, disaster strikes: The guy in the next seat starts telling you all about something crazy that happened to him–in great detail. This is the unwelcome storyteller, trying to convince a reluctant audience to care about his story.

We all hate that guy, right? But when you tell a story (any kind of story: a novel, a memoir, a screenplay, a stage play, a comic, or even a cover letter), you become the unwelcome storyteller.

So how can you write a story that audiences will embrace? The answer is simple: Remember what it feels like to be that jaded audience. Tell the story that would win you over, even if you didn’t want to hear it.

Today’s guest Matt Bird can help you. He is a screenwriter and the author of the best-selling book The Secrets of Story: Innovative Tools for Perfecting Your Fiction and Captivating Readers

The Secrets of Story provides comprehensive, audience-focused strategies for becoming a master storyteller. Armed with the Ultimate Story Checklist, you can improve every aspect of your fiction writing with incisive questions like these:

• Concept: Is the one-sentence description of your story uniquely appealing?
• Character: Can your audience identify with your hero?
• Structure and Plot: Is your story ruled by human nature?
• Scene Work: Does each scene advance the plot and reveal character through emotional reactions?
• Dialogue: Is your characters’ dialogue infused with distinct personality traits and speech patterns based on their lives and backgrounds?
• Tone: Are you subtly setting, resetting, and upsetting expectations?
• Theme: Are you using multiple ironies throughout the story to create meaning?

To succeed in the world of fiction and film, you have to work on every aspect of your craft and satisfy your audience. Do both–and so much more–with The Secrets of Story.

I dig into Matt’s story system and breakdown the secrets of story. Enjoy my conversation with Matt Bird.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 0:09
I'd like to welcome to the show Matthew bird Matt. How you doing my friend?

Matt Bird 3:33
I'm fine. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 3:34
I'm good man. Just live in the quarantine life, sir. Live in the quarantine life.

Matt Bird 3:39
It is crazy. This is absolutely insane. It's it's hard to read. You have to remind you every will every morning. I've always had sort of apocalyptic dreams. And then I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh, it's apocalypse. The apocalypse. I'm like, Oh no, it was a dream. I was just dreaming. It's my normal life. And now I've been waking up every morning going like, oh, it's the apocalypse apocalypse. Like no, that's just a dream. I'm like, no, no, it's not. It's not a dream. This is the apocalypse is happening. I can't shake this one off.

Alex Ferrari 4:05
No, I heard the other days like can we put 2020 in a bowl of rice to see if it could fix it or something? Because it's I mean, this is an insane insane year and we're not even halfway through yet. So as of this recording, so buckle in, see what happens but but we're here today to talk about story and I wanted to first before we get into your book and and your concepts and what you teach. How did you get started in the film industry? Because I think you had your origins in the film industry.

Matt Bird 4:41
Yeah, sure. I was always making films and I was I considered myself sort of like a punk DIY filmmaker back in the day like and I was always like working with the stuff that had just come out so I worked with a little bit with to braid and then when DV when mini DV came out, I was like this is great. I can make my own movie I made a feature film. What at first That's not that's not even true for me to feature film. That was the thing. I was always I love features I never, I was like I forget shorts, I'm gonna put in the work, I made a feature on sbhs when I was in high school, or when I was in college, and then when I was out of college, I made a feature on mini DV. And I shot it having no idea how I was going to edit it, because there was no editing software at the time, right. And then right as I finished production that came up with Final Cut Pro 1.0. And I was like, I'm gonna buy it, the first day it hits the store, and I was first community who had figured out this program, which was insane program. And then I've made a feature there. And I was just doing, I was doing whatever I could and then eventually I was like, Okay, it's time to get serious. I went to film school, I went to Columbia University, film school, and I spent a fortune that I did not have a fortune that I may never have, I'm still paying off my loans. But I went ahead and I mean, sometimes there, I shifted my focus there to screenwriting, which I think was wise, I won some awards, I was, you know, they, they basically announced at the end of every year at Columbia, we are going to pick 10 students who we are going to push as you know, people who we're gonna try to help get representation and sales and everything and the other 70 Kids are cut loose. We're not gonna help you guys, but we're gonna help you send kids. So thankfully, I was one of the 10 they, you know, I took a bunch of meetings, New York, and La got a very big deal manager was, you know, got just a few gigs. I was hired to do an adaptation of novel and that went, Okay, I was I set up, you know, I, in screenwriting, it's all about setting up, like, Oh, my God, I've had such a test. As a screenwriter, I've set up this project here, and I've set up this project here. And I've set up this project here. And I'm working with this person, and this person and this person, give her like, oh, how much did you make? Oh, nothing. Like, oh, no, no, the money, the money. That's all that's a bank account, that money is being always money is being held back by a dam, right in front of me. And but it set up. So that means that there's cracks in the dam, and the whole thing is about to flood. And don't you worry. And then eventually, I decided, you know, it wasn't the unsuccessful projects that killed me it was the successful projects, it was the ones where I got paid. And I was like, I can't stand being treated the way I'm being treated. And I can't stand, you know, just, I've just wasn't built for it. I just wasn't built for it. And then I started and then I got really sick. So that didn't help. And by the time I was better than all my heat was off me I was no longer getting meetings, and I started a blog. And at first it was just a rewatching movies blog, or an underrated movies blog. And then I couldn't, I eventually got to a point where it's like I was, you know, this isn't the heyday of blogging in 2010. So it's like, I have to watch a movie and blog about it every day. And I'm like, this is gonna kill me. And so I should start just giving writing advice as an excuse to give myself a day off. Like, instead of doing something hard today, I'll just write some writing advice. And soon that just that just built up and built up and built up. And people were like, Matt, all the stuff you've done your life. This is, this is your passion. This is what you're really good at, you're really good at giving writing advice, and you're into a book and you should do this and that. So soon I turned into a book, it was the secret, some story published by Writer's Digest. I started doing manuscript consultation, I started doing all that. And it became very big, you know, the book became an Amazon bestseller. It was, you know, I've now got the secret straight podcast of the Secret Story YouTube channel. And it's been wonderful. It's, you know, you never end up where you think you're going to end up. But this is turned out to be my passion. It's turned out to be what I'm good at. And it's been great.

Alex Ferrari 8:48
It's been your your own hero's journey, if you will, sir.

Matt Bird 8:52
It's been pretty much my hero's journey. I mean, if you in my book I talk about, you know, the great talking about stories about when I got sick, and when, you know, it was I found myself ironically living out these heroic narratives that I was learning about and trying to write about, and it'll end up being deeply ironic, but I wound up coming out on top. So maybe not on top. I can't, you know, somewhere

Alex Ferrari 9:17
above water, above a water above the water, the water. Now in your book, you talk about the 13 laws of writing for strangers, which is a just a great writing for strangers is a great idea because that's what we do. Basically screenwriters you write for strangers, generally speaking a lesser, Chris Nolan. And even then you're still writing for strangers because someone else is financing it. So you have 13 laws. Can you talk a little bit about a few of them?

Matt Bird 9:43
Yeah. Let me see. How I go. You know, I wrote this book five years ago, who knows what the rules were. Okay. So the number one was screenwriting. Well, I should say no, the number one wants story. This is for all kinds of story writers. You must write for an audience, not just yourself. Because I think a lot of people, I think the worst piece of advice people get is like, oh, you know, tell a story that you love. And then it'll be a great story. It's like, I don't know about you. But when I was a screenwriter, I loved all my stories, like it was, that was a very low bar, trying to get a write a story that I love, I would write it, I would love it, I would send it out into the world. And a vision, everybody's like, Oh, right, I'm not just writing for myself. I'm writing for other people. I am writing for strangers. And I have to figure out what a stranger wants. And guess what strangers have a lot higher standards than you have for yourself. And some people are really, really hard on themselves. And they're like, you know, you know, like, Miles Davis had a quote something like, you know, like, I, I'm the toughest audience there could possibly be, so I can please myself, I know, it must be great. But I'm not Miles Davis. And I was that hard on myself. And it was only when I realized, okay, I'm writing for strangers. I'm writing an audience writing for an audience, not just for myself. Why? Number two is audiences purchase your work based on the concept, but they embrace it, because of your characters. I think this is, you know, we tend to overvalue a concept. Concept. We're like, Oh, my God concept, it's gonna sell itself, it's gonna write itself. Like, no, it never writes itself. And it's probably not going to sell itself either. Like, yes, people are gonna want to hear you have a haircut. So if they're like, they're like, that's great concept. Now, have you read it. And then as soon as they read it, they do not care about the high concept. They do not care about any of your big ideas about your big concept. All people care about, and they're going to give you five pages. And they're going to read five pages, which road and then like, do I fall in love with this character. And if you do follow the character, and then you never get around to delivering that high concept you promise, they won't even notice. They're like, Oh, I don't really have that concept anymore. Give me a character I love. I'll go anywhere with him. Give me a character I don't love. Forget it. Even if it's the best, hottest, most wonderful idea in the world. Forget it, I'm not going to read it. So that's one, number two. Number three, audiences will always choose one character to be their hero. I feel like this is people a lot of times are like, well, you know, do you think one person see her for the first 10 pages, and then I kill him off. And then you're gonna think that someone else is there for the next 30 pages. And then you realize, now now, it's really that person in the background. Now, of course, you can always think of exceptions. Alien is the ultimate exception. You have no idea who the hero of alien is, until you're about 40 minutes into that movie. And suddenly, you're like, wait a second, that woman in the background. She's the hero of the story. Like I thought the hero was Tom Skerritt who just got killed off. But that is a huge exception. And usually, you're gonna want to convince you know, your the hardest part of writing is getting people to go like, I am invested in this character. And I'm going to follow this character through the whole story. And if you want to write in, that's fine. If you want to convince people to invest in one character, and then kill like a drug, and then go like, no, no, no, I'm gonna convince you to care about a whole nother character. You can try it, but doesn't tend to work.

Alex Ferrari 12:55
It's funny. It's funny, when you were saying when you're talking about like going with a character on a ride, you read, you watch Raiders of the Lost Ark. And you're introduced to indie. And if I remember, there was no dialogue or like a minimal dialogue, all throughout that first part up all up until almost none, I think he had maybe one or two lines. And that was it. Until the until the boulder came down. And after that sequence, you you were in like, you have no idea his backstory, you have no idea what he like, all you know is like, I wherever he goes, I want to follow him. Because this is awesome.

Matt Bird 13:37
Because he's doing awesome stuff. He's got a whip. I mean, he has a whip, the whip for all kinds of stuff. And then he gets, he does awesome stuff. But he fails and he gets humiliated. It's not about him being an awesome badass, you know, it's not like, hey, you know, here I am with the idol. And that proves how awesome I am. I just recovered this idol. Now we love Him because He does all this awesome stuff, get the idol and then fails to get the idol. And he fails in a way that prefigures the whole movie. What I mean? First one was how does he really fail? He fails because he's like, Well, I've got an idol. And I've got a bag of sand and a bag of sand in the idle way, the exact same amount. So if I switch out the handle for the bag of sand, they're the same thing. And of course, what's he doing is he does not realize the power of faith. He does not realize that, you know, there is a religious value to this idol that the bag of sand does not have. And because he is blind to the religious value, he almost gets killed. He almost gets run over by a boulder because he cannot tell the difference between a religious I don't want a bag of sand and then that takes you right through the end of the movie where it's like he finally at the end of the movie. He says close your eyes Marian because he realizes that you know Oh, this isn't just the ark. It's not just a bag of sand. The Ark is a religious thing and now God is going to rain vengeance down and melt that guy's skin and turned into milk. And that is that is it's one of the most brilliant openings movie ever. Yes, without question, but see. So it seems small. Number four, audiences don't care about stories, they only hear about characters. What number five, the best way to introduce every element of your story is from your heroes point of view. Again, lots of exceptions. I love the exceptions, some of my favorite movies or exceptions. But man, if you can just get people to care about your hero, then we'll care about what your hero cares about. And if we don't care about your hero, or if your hero doesn't care about the story, that's one of the worst mistakes you can make is like, oh, you know, my hero has a lot of onwy. And he is not invested in the story. The story is sort of going on over his shoulder, we're sort of peeking around his head going like, hey, heroes, there's a whole story going on back there, pay attention to it, and the hero doesn't care. It's the worst one. And it's very hard to get audiences to care about any hero because they're afraid of getting hurt. I think this is this was one of the big ones for me, when I realized this, it's that audiences, if you were writing the very first story anyone had ever written if you're a caveman, and you're like, I've just invented this concept of storytelling. People are like, Oh, well, that's fascinating. Tell me more. But as it is, people have spent their whole lives reading books, watching movies, and most of them have been bad. And every time people read a bad book, or watch a bad movie, then it hurts, it's painful to read a bad book, it's painful to watch a bad movie. Because though a story asks you to care, a three asks you to invest your emotion, Noah's story is not just something that you passively stare at, you're not just sitting in the theater going like, well, I could look at any one of these four walls, but I'm gonna have a look at the wall that has the pictures moving on it, you are getting sucked in, you are being asked to care. And usually you're being asked to care about a useless hero going on an uninteresting story. And you know, I wouldn't say most of the time, but a tremendous amount. A tremendous amount of stories are bad. And what do you say, when you see a bad movie or read a bad book, you say, Well, I'm never doing that, again, you say I was tricked into caring about this hero, and then he turned out not to be worth caring about. So I'm not going to care again. So every time you write a book, or you write a screenplay, or you make a movie, then your audience is people going to be like, first of all, I know, this is all wise, you're not going to trick me into thinking this is a real person, right? And then you're not going to get me to care. There's no way I'm gonna care about this person, because you're just going to hurt me, I don't wanna be hurt again. And so that is a huge hurdle you have to overcome is realizing that getting the audience to care is going to be the hardest thing in the world. Or number seven is, your audience need not always sympathize with your hero, but they must always empathize with your hero. So I talked about how like, you know, we, when we were in film school, it was like the heyday of Mad Men and The Sopranos and Breaking Bad. And they were like, Oh, these heroes aren't sympathetic. So that means these are successful here with neon sympathetic semi Do you no longer have to write sympathetic heroes anymore. So that means you can just write about anybody, and you can write any story you want to do, and they can just be the most loathsome hero in the world. And people have no choice. Now they have to care about it, though the whole rules have been thrown out the window, we did not realize how hard these writers were working. First of all, we didn't realize that all of these writers had gotten their starts on shows where you cared very much where the hero was very sympathetic. So for instance, did you know

David Chase, who created the sopranos, he had gotten a start as a writer on The Rockford Files. There has never been a more lovable hero in the history of TV than Jim Rockford on The Rockford Files. And so he knew he was not somebody coming along going, like, Gee, I don't know how to create a synthetic hero. So I'd better create a yeah, I'd better create Tony Soprano instead and create an unsympathetic hero. And, you know, hopefully people will like him. No, he knew how to create sympathetic heroes, and he knew how to get us to love Tony Soprano, even though he was an awful guy. And he knew it was because we wouldn't sympathize with them, but we would empathize with him, we deeply empathize with him. And that's why your story about a sympathetic ear. That's why people are saying, Oh, I hate your story. Because it's an unsympathetic hero and you're like, but But what about all these unsympathetic heroes out there who are great heroes, when they're really mean to say is not that they can sympathize with the hero, they're saying, I can't empathize with your hero. And that is death. That is you can have the least sympathetic ear on the world, but if we can't empathize with him or her, forget it.

Alex Ferrari 19:21
So then you look at a character, which arguably, I think is arguably one of the best television shows of all time is Breaking Bad with Walter White. I mean, his transformation from like, like, I'm gonna Gillean Vince Gilligan said he's like, Mr. Chips turns into Scarface, and, and you know, when I started watching that show, it's it just, you see him slowly turn into a monster, but yet he turned into a monster for the like when he started the journey. It was for kind of the right reasons. Kind of it's a gray area. Have you want to say the cell math, but I get it, I get it. But then afterwards, it stopped being about that. And it was all about his own ego and he literally turned into a monster. But yet you still were empathetic with him. Like it was so brilliantly written and performed as well.

Matt Bird 20:17
Yeah, if they had, I don't I don't know if they had gotten they originally offered the show to both Matthew Broderick and John CUSEC. And I don't know if Broderick in case I could have pulled it off. I don't know if we would have you know, we would have cared as much about Matthew Broderick or junkies, I could say had gone on that journey. It was really it was all about, you know, don't get me wrong. Vince Gilligan scripts were amazing. They were insane. They were brilliant. And Better Call Saul is still brilliant. I'm I'm watching the most recent season that right now. But, you know, Bryan Cranston, come on? I mean, so good on that show, he made that show. He was amazing on that show. And it was so good. But no, I mean, you know, I mean, if what might have happened sick, you know, if he had not been, you know, it was so important that he had been sick, it was so important that he had been screwed out of his previous job. I think that, you know, the best motivation. It's like, how, first of all, once you got to the point where Walter White had made an insane amount of money. And, you know, obviously, it got harder to empathize with him as the show went on. Because he had was, he was no longer sick. First of all, he had, he was no longer conceivably doing this for his family, because his family now was, you know, his wife had found out and hated him for doing it. So, you know, in order to make his wife happy, that was it. But the real, I think the hidden motivation on that show that made it that didn't justify but strongly motivated all his actions, is that he felt he had been cheated out of a billion dollars. He felt that when he had been forced out of this company, right, that he had, I think greymatter was the name of the company. And he, he felt like he had this burning resentment inside him from feeling like I was part of a billion dollar startup. And then I was forced out. And I was cheated out of this money. And so that gave him the bottomless pit. Because, you know, in the end, the illness wasn't abundant was paid for, you know, trying to trying to satisfy his family wasn't one was bad. It was that resentment of feeling like I and I think so many of us feel that way. So many of us have, like, you know, like, that was my fortune, you've got my fortune. We all have that person. We know, who made it when we didn't make it, and who she was out of the thing. And it was, I think that is one of the most underrated or underrecognized elements of that show of why people love that show so much.

Alex Ferrari 22:37
Yeah, and it's still it's still going. It's still going and it'll go on and it ended. It had a beautiful one of the most beautiful endings to a show ever. So brilliantly, brilliantly done. Did you happen to see the Colombian version of Breaking Bad?

Matt Bird 22:54
No, there's the Colombian version there is that they literally took

Alex Ferrari 22:57
the scripts and test translated them into Spanish. And then they licensed it. And they licensed it to a Colombian set of actors, and they did everything down there in Colombia, and it's a telenovela. Basically, they made it into a telenovela. If you want, if you can get just a few if anyone out there, if you can send it to us somewhere online. Right, Bradbury. He saw one of

Matt Bird 23:22
my favorite TV shows, one of my favorite TV shows of all time is slings and arrows about life in a Canadian Shakespeare Festival, which doesn't sound like it would be a great show. But and then I found out that the director of City of God, yeah, made and, and oh, and he just made another film that was really great. But the director of city Oh, God made a Brazilian version of slings and arrows. So in this case, it was my life in a Brazilian Shakespeare Festival. And that's like my holy grail of stuff I want to find. I want to find the Brazilian version of Oh, and he just made the two pups. Oh, I was watching the two pups and two pups was brilliant. I loved that movie. And I was like, Man, this guy made its own version of slings and arrows. That's what I really want to. I don't know if anybody has even dubbed it and I do not speak Portuguese.

Alex Ferrari 24:10
Right. So how committed are you sir? Will you learn Portuguese just to watch?

Matt Bird 24:17
Well, that's what Pete Buddha judge did. Right? Pete Buddha judge taught himself Norwegian because the he was reading a book series that was translated from Norwegian. And then the final books were not translated from Norwegian. So he taught himself Norwegian just to read the book series.

Alex Ferrari 24:29
God bless him. God bless.

Matt Bird 24:34
See where he ends up?

Alex Ferrari 24:35
Yeah, exactly. So let me ask you a question. So yeah, I don't want you to give all your 13 laws away. I want to be somebody who can actually buy the book. But yes, what is your process for coming up for an intriguing concept for our story?

Matt Bird 24:52
Well, I think that, you know, I don't always agree with like, Senator, but I think Blake Snyder, you know, was right on the money when he talked about the importance of irony that You know, it's gonna be, you know, a schoolteacher cooks math, you know, not a drug lord cooks math, you know, not the son of a drug lord cooks math solver, Adobo cooks met Montessori, school teacher cooks MEB. That's the story. There's got to be an ironic element to it. I talked about on my blog, I've got a whole series of how to generate a story idea. And, you know, I talk about, for instance, there's all sorts of ways into it. Like one way, you know, one of the ways to generate your idea is, you've always thought she, the thing you've always wanted to do, but you know, you would never do so it can be the the science fiction version of that is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Like, gee, I wouldn't you know, I've gone through a bad breakup, I would really love to, if I could just have a machine that would wipe out all memories of this relationship from my head, then that would make me happy. And anyway, would that make me happy, and then boom, that's the story. You're off to the races. That's a great story. But it can also be a way to get a non science fiction story. Like, you know, I've just gone through another bad breakup. Some stories begin with bad breakups. I've just been through a bad breakup. And what if I tracked down every girl who's ever come to me, since elementary school, and tracked debt and made a list of the top five girls who've ever done and track them down one by one and interview them about why they dominate? Well, again, that's something that Nick Hornby did not do. I promise you he did not do that. I promise you that no one has ever actually done that. But it's something we've all thought about doing. Like oh, wouldn't that be, and boom, that's a story that got turned into the novel, high fidelity, and then the movie high fidelity, and then the TV series, high fidelity. And that's, you know, that's essentially he's doing the same thing, that Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind had going, like, you know, what's, what's an idea I had, of course, I feel like, the best way to probably create a story these days, if you want to create something big, if you want to create a big sale, I talked about the Hunger Games, how she was reading about the legend of PCs, and all of it, all of the Hunger Games in the legend, PCs, so that they were like, you know, oh, we've got an empire, we're rolling over all these kingdoms. Once a year, we're going to have all the kingdoms and, you know, they're beautiful young people too. And then we're going to put them in this labyrinth, and we're going to force them to compete. And this will be a way to, you know, to show them that we have conquered them. And that, you know, we could kill them on a times, but instead, we'll just kill their two most beautiful kids, and force them to fight to the death just to show our power. And she was like, well, she could have done three things. She could have said, Okay, well, let me just, you know, this is IP, a PCS is IP, why don't I just go back? And it's, it's the best kind of IP, it's IP that's in the public domain. I just read a book about Theseus, but then she was like, but you know, then first of all, you shouldn't really own it, because anyone can write a book about PCs. So she's like, well, what's a version of PCs I can own? And I could sell it in modern day, but that would be kind of a stretch. She's like,

Alex Ferrari 27:54
you know what, you know what? We're not too far away. I would have said that. Yes, you borrow it. I would have said I would have said that a few years ago. But now what what you thought was impossible is not possible, sir. So don't don't authority.

Matt Bird 28:06
But then she was like, why don't I make this the post apocalyptic version? And all she did was take an existing story. All she did was take existing IP. And she was able to make that into a billion dollar franchise herself. I don't know. Does Susan Collins have a billion dollars? She spent a billion dollars find out right?

Alex Ferrari 28:29
Between a couple of them shirts. I think she's she's done. Okay. So basically, she just took she just basically took Hamlet, let's say, and made it into a long sea or something that's completely in the public domain. And just made an entire IP out of it.

Matt Bird 28:42
Yeah, she she took she took free IP is what Disney spamming him with. That's my endgame. Yeah, with Disney has been doing for a long time is taking free IP and, and turning it into something they can been owned and try to, you know, force everybody else to, you know, try to, they like to pluck things out of the public domain and then suddenly claim to own them, which is a neat trick. But she that's what she did. She she took something in the public domain, plucked it out, made it hers and made a fortune. You know, I talked about but I talk about other things that aren't necessarily sci fi related. I talk about the importance of a unique relationship. I talked about how, you know, you kind of bully and a boy, a boy who's being bullied. Well, that is a story we've seen a million times, but then the bully hires, but then the boy hires the meanest body to protect him from the other bullies. Then that's the movie my bodyguard. That is a unique relationship. We've never thought

Alex Ferrari 29:38
I love that movie. I love that movie. So I can't believe you refer to that. That's it was released in 1980. I remember watching it as a kid, and I thought it was the most awesome frickin movie with Matt Dillon. Is it Matt Dillon? Adam Baldwin, yeah, Adam Baldwin and Matt Dillon with the two picks. They weren't big Stars then but those are the stars. Oh god, I can't believe you made a reference to that movie. It's like one of my favorite movies of all time. I love that movie.

Matt Bird 30:05
But that's, you know, we've seen both those characters many times. These aren't unique characters, but it's a unique relationship we've never seen you know, the week kid hired the bullied to be as bodyguard before, or you know, work at another high school movie like election, you know, about a war between a girl running for student body president and her civics teacher. And it's like, okay, we, you know, we've seen characters like this before, but man, that's a unique relationship. We have never seen that relationship before. Or, you know, I talked about paper, Moon, you know, a con man and his 11 year old accomplice who may or may not be his daughter. And it's like, okay, this is if you can, you know, you don't have to be science fiction, obviously, one of my ideas, you know, it's like, okay, I mean, these days, gentlemen, people talk about high concept. They talk about science fiction, they're talking about like, okay, you know, here's a high concept idea. It's, you know, we've got it's 1000 years into the future. And it's like, well, what's up there? You can, you know, the simplest high concept idea out there the simplest type concept. You know, the, if a pure high concept is something where you put together two words, and you sell it for a million dollars, and to me, the ultimate example of that is Wedding Crashers. Two words. Wedding Crashers, boom, done sale. Make a movie. It's a funny idea. It makes you laugh, like, oh, people are graduating and you're like, oh, you know, you just you're instantly like, I can't wait to meet these guys. I can't wait to meet these guys who crush other people's weddings. Or what if not big budget. Easy and easiest thing in the world to make?

Alex Ferrari 31:35
Yes. Like what if? What if dinosaurs came back? We can bring the answers back. That's done. Yeah. And we opened the park but

Matt Bird 31:44
it's so funny that they've never really there's never really been a dinosaurs rampaging through Manhattan movie. Isn't that strange?

Alex Ferrari 31:53
I mean, last world. They did do not in Manhattan, but they did he they did come towards

Matt Bird 31:57
Spielberg. Spielberg loves the suburbs. So you know, Spielberg is like if I'm gonna have a T Rex going through America, I'm gonna put them out in the suburbs, but it's really weird. I was working in idea for a while I never kind of done you know, obviously, that may be one reason why it's harder right than you think. But you know, it always struck me in the Thor movies. We've never really had a like frost giants attack downtown Manhattan moment.

Alex Ferrari 32:24
But you know, a lot of things if attacks Manhattan over the years, I mean, we were we're good if it's between a giant Stay Puft Marshmallow Man Godzilla. I mean, Manhattan's had its day don't get there's no lack of things attacking Manhattan over the course of movie history. I think we're okay. But yes, I've never personally seen a dinosaurs I think shark NATO I'd never seen any the movies. I'm assuming there must have been a shark NATO in Manhattan at one point or, like, that's a perfect thing. Shark NATO that sold. So, I love this. There's one little meme that's on around going on social media is like remember when you think you had a bad idea? Remember that one day once there was a guy in a room who said let's put sharks in tornadoes? You know, I mean,

Matt Bird 33:15
that's, that's and then and then seven movies later how many of those movies that they made my

Alex Ferrari 33:19
god so much money they've made? It's ridiculous. So then how do you so we would talk a little bit about characters with like Indiana Jones and, and Walter White, let's say how do you write that enduring character? That character that that just sticks with you like like an indie like, I mean, we can we can analyze indie we can and a lot analyze Han Solo if there's two to Harrison Ford characters

Matt Bird 33:46
to George Lucas, there's unfortunately no

Alex Ferrari 33:48
Yeah, or, or any of these characters that you just like, oh, like forever I will be with this character, James Bond is another one of those characters that endures, regardless of how he's transformed, transformed over the course of his journey in history of filmmaking. So what do you how do you do it? How do you write an enduring character?

Matt Bird 34:09
Well, when I talk about in the, I think the title of my next book, depending on how the publisher actually feels, but will be believed care, invest. And I talked about how like, you know, again, you've got they're going to give you five pages, maybe 10 pages when they read it, and what they're gonna want to do it and those five pages are going to want to believe, care and invest. And they're going to want to say, You know what, I was just talking on the next episode of my podcast about this. How, you know, Ray in Star Wars ray in The Force Awakens is a classic example of like, right away, we're seeing her and her wife is so strange. If it's so filled with like, she makes that bread, that spherical machine she's got wherever that was awesome. Yeah, that causes you to totally believe in this world because you're like, Okay, that's so weird. You couldn't make it up. You know, like, Okay, this must be real. This must be a real world like so any thought I had going on? have like, Okay, this is all going to be wise this is going to be fake button pushing manipulating character, like, okay, no, this, this feels real. And then they get you to care because the characters suffering the characters being embarrassed. You know, in this case, she's living hand to mouth, she's living this very hardscrabble life and then they get you to invest because she's taking care of herself and she is taking care of herself wonderfully. First they show you that she is doing all she can to make all this money, she's doing all she can, could work very hard. And you know, is like doing going to, you know, we see a rappelling down into a destroyed Star Destroyer, we see Oh, see, you're going to do current length, and then you get the point 10 minutes and where we've already seen her desperately trying to get money from the pawnbroker or from the scrap dealer, and she'll do anything to get this money. And then she gets destroyed. And the droid says, And finally, the scrap dealer who she's always been trying to make this money off of. So that'll pay a fortune for I'll pay a fortune for eBay. And she says, and then suddenly, she says, I'm not selling, I'm not gonna set one. And oh, my God, we love this character five now, because we've seen that she's, we believe in her, we care about her, we've invested in her, and we desperately want her to make that money. We at this point, we want her to make that money, we want her to be successful. And then she gets a higher calling. She says, No, this is about more than me, this is about bigger than me. This is about BPA, I am going to not sell him. And like what better example this could be where we talk about, you know, The Hunger Games, Why can the Hunger Games, you know, we talked about save the cat. And, oh, it's so important. It's so important. You kind of have your character save the cat right away. And it almost, it's almost always a mistake to have your character save a cat. Because we don't identify that we, I've never saved a cat, you have never saved a cat. It is a very rare thing to actually save a cat. That's not the sort of thing we see. And it's like, oh, that's just like me, I save cats all the time. What is what is the first page of The Hunger Games, I think the second paragraph of the Hunger Games, she wakes up in the morning, and she sees the family cat. And she thinks, you know, I really want to kill that cat. I almost killed that cat before I tried to kill that cat before I didn't succeed. I really want to kill the family cat today. And then she decides not to kill it. So she sort of saves the cat, right? Because she almost kills it and then decides not to kill it. So that's one version of saving a cat. But then she leaves the house and she kills a different cat. Within five pages later, she sees a noble mountain lion and she concerns landing. And it's like, no, I'm gonna kill it and cook it. And she does. So it's like, this is the ultimate opposite of Save the cat. This is like literally she almost kills the family cat and then does kill another cat. But we believe we care. We invest we believe in her life because it's filled with, you know, even just her story of almost going to family cat. It's like, oh, that doesn't sound fake. Because that sounds like because no one would make that up to manipulate me because that makes me not like her like, Okay, this must be real. And then we care so much because oh my god, she's poor enough where, you know, she would even consider that. And then we've asked because what's the next thing she does, she goes up, there's an electric fence, I'm gonna slip through the electric fence. I'm gonna take out my bow and arrow, and then I'm gonna go hunt. And oh my god, like we love her. But then so we believe in her. We cared about her, we invest in her. And then what happens on page 10, or page ad or no 25 or so is she is so good at looking out for number one and taking care of number one and making sure that she survives, she'll do anything to survive. And then she volunteers for The Hunger Games to save her sister. And she rises up above it. So we totally believe in her world. And then she rises up above it. And oh my god, we absolutely love her now. And now you're in. Now you're in

you know, it's James Bond is the perpetual exception. I just rewatched I was all prepared. The new James Bond movie was supposed to come out. And I watched all 25 James Bond movies. Wow. And then I was all set up. I was timing it exactly. To the moment the movie came out. And then the movie was cancelled. But James Bond is the perpetual exception. You know, certainly before Daniel credit comes in, he never changes. He never learns he never grows. He doesn't. He doesn't really get humiliated. He does though. Like that's such a key Amen is your hero getting humiliated? And there are key moments, you know, if you look at Gold finger, you know, he's, he's, you know, could not be more suave. And when he blows up the tanker, and then you know, takes off his wetsuit and he's got on a tux underneath and then But then he goes to the woman's house to have sex with her. And then it's it's the most ludicrous thing that he sees in reflected in the iris of her eyes. Someone coming up to kill him. And then that's a little bit of a moment of humiliation. You get just enough in the Bond movies. Okay, I I definitely you mentioned some he's getting a little bit of humiliation here. And then of course, he turns the girls so that she gets knocked on the head instead of himself, because he's despicable. Don't get me wrong. He has a despicable human being. And but he's the exception. You know, certainly you look at Indy, you look at Indiana Jones and, you know, instantly right away he misjudges the whole bag Same situation, he gets betrayed by his assistant, Alfred Molina, he then has to run through the forest. And then he gets forced on his knees to hand over the idol to duck and then add on of course, he's also he's free to snake. He hate snakes, and he gets away and there is a snake in there. So this guy who was seemingly not afraid of anything, is somebody terrified of snakes. And, you know, he can do it. He's got the skills, he does amazing work, and yet he horses and he gets humiliated. And yet he gets knocked down in a way that speaks not just to his interpersonal failings, but to his inner his intrapersonal failings into what is really wrong with his character. What is his deep personal flaw? It all speaks to it. We love him. We love him so much. That's what it's all about is you know, you you believe care, invest. And then, you know, and then suddenly, there's a moment where it kicks in. Suddenly, there's a moment where you're like, wow, okay, now I'm really on board with this person.

Alex Ferrari 41:00
Well, you look at you look to characters like the like bond pre Daniel Craig, because I think I think still Casino Royale is the best Bond movie ever. In my opinion. There's just it's, it's It's a masterpiece of the whole canon of James Bond. But you look at characters like bond or Sherlock Holmes. And they're both basically superheroes in many ways. They are godlike, and they generally didn't change. Like, you know, Sherlock generally never changed that people that change the people around him, like, Watson is kind of like the person who's learning the lessons along the way. And we kind of identify with Watson, in that sense, but Sherlock never sure looks the same violin playing dude, from the beginning to the end. And same thing with the older bonds. So there are those kind of and that's why I think it was so difficult to make a good Superman movie, other than the original Donner movies, because you can't write for a guide. It's hard. It's hard. That's why the mountain lip is all of them were human. Basically, all of them were even though there were gods, they all had the same failings of humanity. So

Matt Bird 42:11
what's interesting, both Sherlock Holmes and James Bond are addicts, you know, like James Bond, they talked about in the original movies, they talk about, you know, like, oh, you know, you've got liver problems, right, from right from the opening movies. And, you know, they talk about, you know, people always act like, oh, you know, the Bond movies were set back in a time when it was great to be, you know, this swaggering dude who had all these things. It's like, he gets criticized right away, you know, like, he was seen as sort of a monster like, Sean Connery was perceived by the people around him in those early movies, as being this sort of Monster is dude, and who had serious flaws who had serious problems. Yeah. And you know, we go today like, oh, he was a womanizer. And he was he drank too much and he smoked too much and Oh, of course back then when they made movies they didn't even realize that was problem like no they did they realize that was from and of course Sherlock Holmes was addicted to opium he would inject himself I mean, I opium he would cocaine, you wouldn't have to myself with liquid cocaine, and, you know, with a very troubled person, and in the in the stories, and I think that we tend to, we tend to women, we tend to think like, oh, they're the past, where heroes were allowed to be perfect. But as he said, even with the gods, the cons were, you know, in the Greek gods, the gods were very flawed. I mean, I think the oldest piece of literature that is still with us is Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh you know, could not you, you I dare you to find a screenwriting gurus book where anything in it does not apply to Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh could not be a more perfectly fine hero, his journey cannot fit modern story structures better. So you've read Gilgamesh, and you're like, wow, nothing has changed, like nothing has changed. And the reason why nothing has changed is because good storytelling it rise is based on human nature is based on what is the fundamental truth about what it's like to be a human because that's what stories are about stories are about what is the fundamental truth about what does it mean to be a human in this world? And even if you go back to ancient Mesopotamia, even if you go back to the, you know, 3500 years BCE, it's human nature was the same. And you read Gilgamesh, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's, it's, I it may be my favorite book. And it's the oldest book we've had.

Alex Ferrari 44:23
Yeah, and it's just you know, it's, it's, it's similar to what we're dealing with today is the human condition just with less iPhones. Essentially, exactly. Now, structure is something that is talked at nauseum about in storytelling, and specifically in screenwriting, is like you need to follow this formula, the hero's journey, the three act structure, at page this you have to have that happen a page that that happens. What is your take on story structure in general?

Matt Bird 44:56
Well, you know, at first I was like, oh, all this The writing gurus have taken that have covered that it's fine. Everybody has their structure, I don't need my own structure. And then of course, inevitably, you start giving writing advice. And everybody, you always end up with your own structure. And every, you know, I sort of ended up with sort of 14 points where I started out, what I realized about structure is that, you know, you have people you have people like Robert McKee, who are saying, well, you know, I, here's pharmakeia, you were on a cruise, you have paid for the Robert McKee cruise, and I'm going to tell you what all good stories are like, and then somebody stands up in the back and they go, my stories don't like that. And then Robert McKee can tell them, Okay, leave the boat swim home. My, my, my structure doesn't apply to you, he has to claim that all structures apply to him. So he talks about like the micro pod and the mini pot, and things like that. And that's what gurus tend to do is they drive themselves crazy trying to cover all the exceptions, I realized right away, I'm not going to try to cover all the exceptions, my structure only applies to stories about the solving of a large problem.

Alex Ferrari 46:08
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Matt Bird 46:18
So, I mean, the biggest problem you can have when you're trying to structure is like, okay, all good movies are like this. And then someone says, Pulp Fiction. And you're like, exactly, both fiction does not have a modern structure. And Polk fiction does not have a structure that matches the structure of any other movie. And because Pulp Fiction is not about the solving of a large problem, it is an ensemble film, it is about several different stories, it is they overlap, the time is crazy, but if you're going to write, but I'm like, Okay, you be you, you go off and be Pulp Fiction, you're brilliant, don't change, never change. But most stories are about an invoke an individual solving a large problem, my structure only applies to those stories, not gonna apply those others. And then I realized what story structure really is, is it is not a set of rules for that Aristotle, or Mickey, or that anybody else has said, I'm going to dictate to you what the rules of story should be. It is merely an attempt to list the steps and missteps that people go through when solving a large problem in real life. So in human nature, we tend to go through a series of steps and miss steps on the way to solving a large problem. And when you see a story, and when somebody says, Oh, the structure is not good on your story. They're not saying, oh, you know, you didn't read Blake Snyder and hit all his beats. What they're saying is that this story does not ring true to me, this story does not ring true to human nature. To me, this does not feel like an identify for believable journey from becoming aware of a problem to solving that problem. Or to succumbing to the problem if the movie ends tragically. And that's what they really mean. So you can't just go like, well, I don't believe in your stupid structures guy, I don't, you know, I'm

Alex Ferrari 48:10
an artist. I'm an artist,

Matt Bird 48:12
I'm an artist, I don't do paint by numbers, man, then you're like, Okay, that's fine. That's great. You're an artist. And that's wonderful. But your story is not ringing true. And if you want to say, okay, you know, if you're writing, there will be blood or something, if you're writing something where it's like, okay, this is about a strange person who is not interested in being your hero, who is not interested in doing that, that's fine. You know, if this is not something where it's like, I'm going to invest in this person, I hope this person solves all their problems, then that's fine. But if you are, and you probably are, then you will need to follow the steps and missteps that most people will tend to follow in real life when solving large problems. And that was how I generate my structure now. It's funny. So 13 of my 14 main steps in my structure, applied event, there's one that doesn't, and it's the one that was it's necessary to solve a paradox of storytelling. And that paradox is the break into act three, I don't refer to x one, two and three, I talk about the four corners of your story, but the move from the third quarter your story to the fourth quarter your story, or as it's usually referred to by screenwriters, the break from act two and act three, then we all know that the hero is supposed to be proactive at that point, right? supposed to have a proactive hero, the hero has realized what his problem is realized what the problem in his world is. He's confronted his flaw, and now he's ready to take on the world. He's ready to bring the fight to the bad guy. But do we actually want in the final quarter of the story? Do we actually want the hero to just show up to the bad guy's house and beat him up? No, we don't want that. So this is a paradox. Like if we want the hero to take the fight to the if we want the hero to have changed enough as a person and to have gone through the personal transformation necessary to now say I'm ready to show up at the heroes house and beat him up. But then we don't actually want to see that happen. So what happens? Why, why is the hero giving the writer conflict? Why is the audience giving the writer conflicting signals here. And of course, it all comes down to Star Wars, and even my mind in the original kind of Star Wars, that's exactly what happened at the end is they're like, we have the plants of the Death Star. And we're gonna just show up at the heroes front door and beat a pup, we're gonna find the Death Star, wherever it is, in the middle of the galaxy. We're gonna fly there, we're gonna shoot, we're gonna shoot it the fawn the Death Star, and we're gonna blow it up. And nobody likes the movie. George Lucas was showing this movie to people and they were ashamed. They were like, Oh, George, I'm so sorry. Well, you know, maybe the next one will work out for you. You know, this one's just, it's not working. And George did the number one thing that everybody should do, he went back to his wife. And he said, Honey, why isn't this working? And she said, Let me fix it for you. And she said, Well, duh, your problem is, it's good that your heroes now have the information they need. They've got what they need to defeat the bad guys. But then the bad guys show up on their doorstep. And she just we ended the movie and redubbed the movie, and shot new insert shots to create an entire storyline that was not there in the original film of, okay, yes, we know, have the plans with the desktop, but then the desktop shows up to blow us up before we can go there to blow them up. And they are about to blow us up. And, you know, you look at this in suddenly, once you see this, you see it everywhere. So that is you see it everywhere. That, oh, you know, I have personally transformed it become a productive person. But then the timeline gets unexpectedly moved up. And suddenly they're here. So it's the one step in my structure where it's like, Okay, that one is there to address the paradox that is, you know, because in, but it doesn't happen in real life anyway. Yeah.

Does, it doesn't happen that time, like, does tend to get moved up. But it doesn't. But that's not necessarily something that's based on real life, it's not that the timeline always gets moved and always gets moved up in real life, although that does tend to happen. You know, I talk about my structure, how, you know, I would, I would sit there and I'd be like, Okay, I need to master this structure. And I need to do this, you know, this writing job that I've just gotten. And I would go like, okay, so I think I've messaged the structure, I'm gonna do the writing job. Okay, first thing I'm gonna do, when I do the right job is I'm gonna, I'm gonna sell them a pitch, they're gonna like the pitch, you know, for how I'm gonna adapt their novel. And then I'm gonna come up with my beat sheet, I've got the beat sheet, and I'm going to pitch it to them. And they like the beat sheet, they go, that's good. Write it exactly the way it is on your beat sheet, and you'll make a million bucks, we'll make a million bucks, we're all gonna get rich. And then you sit down, and you're like, and they tell you, Okay, you have to determine the screenplay in six weeks. And you're like, This is fine. That means I just have to write like three pages a day, it's gonna be beautiful. And then you're writing your pages every day, you're writing your scenes. And then you get halfway through, and you realize this beat sheet that I sold them that they love, it sucks. Like it is, you know, I have my plans have unraveled. And I now realized that this beautiful plan I have, I have to throw out the window. And I have to start over even though I this is what they told me to do. Even though this is the approved plan, I have to repeat this thing. against the rules, an outward repeat that I have to do in order to actually write something that's going to be good. And then I'm gonna have to sell this to them that sell them the thing they don't want. And it's going to work and I realize like, Okay, this is what happens when I would get hired to write screenplays. And it's also what happens in screenplays because this is proof of what I was saying that the story structure is the structure of how you solve problems in real life. The when you're writing your story structure and you're creating a btw story structure, you will end up following the same storyline where you will end up having to in any good movie, they throw out the map halfway through, they get to the halfway point and they're like, Okay, crumple up these plans, throw them out. We're proactive now we're improving. We're having to solve this problem from scratch. And this exact same thing will happen to you Ironically, when you're trying to write it, you will get halfway through and you're crumple up your beachy, throw it out. You're like oh my God, I am winging it from now on. I'm running. Gotcha. And if you don't do that, it's gonna be terrible. If you just write the exact pitch that you sold them Yeah, it's gonna be terrible.

Alex Ferrari 54:41
Now one one thing I wanted to ask you is something that I guess does not get talked about very much in in screenwriting in general and I'd love to hear your take on it tone. Can you discuss tone because tone is so so important. You know if it It's just so important, especially to all the great movies have good tone, or have appropriate tone.

Matt Bird 55:07
And if and if you can master tone, then you're set. Because if you can, you know, tone is about setting expectation. And if you can set the audience's expectations, if you can tell them like, Okay, here's what to expect from me, here's what I think you should expect, here's what I think you should want, then, and then they want it and then you give it to them, then they will have no idea that you are a master manipulator, who has tricked them into liking this story that they would not actually have liked, that they would have had, you know, I always say the ultimate example of challenge is go back, I'm going to re edit Star Wars, and I'm just going to change one thing, I'm going to take off the opening frames of the movie. And so now instead of saying, Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, no, I'm sorry, what does it say

Alex Ferrari 55:54
a long time, a long time ago, in a galaxy far,

Matt Bird 55:56
far away, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. And I'm going to take that title card off the front of the movie, and instead, I'm going to put a title card that says it is the year 25,193. And then boom, and then you have the whole rest of the movie, the movie would suck. That would suck if Star Wars was not set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, but it was set in the year 25,193, then we would go okay, so this is a science fiction movie. And this is going to follow the rules of a science fiction movie. So they are going to we're going to be dealing with explosive decompression every time that an airlock is opened, we're going to be dealing with supercomputers that have been programmed to take over the world.

Alex Ferrari 56:41
No sound, no sound, no sound in space. No sound

Matt Bird 56:44
in space, of course, no sound in space. Close. And then you're going to be watching this movie. And you're going like this is not the or 25,000. We've got wizards. We've got princesses. We've got you know, we've got storming the castle, we've got all these things. And this is a fairy tale. This is a story that should be said a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And you you have not delivered the story that you promised to deliver. And that is tone. You know, I think that 90 If you're not a screenwriter and you're watching that movie, you're like, oh, that's sort of funny that it says it said a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And you won't realize what that is doing for you that that is solving the movies problems by establishing that tone. That that is saying like, nope, not, it's not what you think it is. It's something else. It's my thing. Let me tell you what my thing is going to be. And I talked about, you know, I when I break up tone I talked about with tone, you know? So the first part tone is genre, establishing your genre establishing your sub genre, that was what that's title card was all about establishing like, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't what you're expecting sci fi. This is a sub genre. I talked about how satisfying genre expectations how you've got to satisfy some genre expectations, but not a lot of genre crustaceans. I talk a lot about on my blog about Game of Thrones, and about Game of Thrones, you know, they satisfy just enough genre expectations. And then they just didn't satisfy so many of them. First of all, they kept killing off the hero. They're like, Oh, by the way, Ned Stark's the hero. No, no, wait, he's dead. Okay, now Rob serves the hero. No, no, no way. He's dead. So that was all about upsetting expectations. But man, if you love fantasy, you still love that series. And it's, it's if you don't want to fail, I mean that that's the dream is Game of Thrones. Because if you love fantasy, you'll love that series. And if you don't want fantasy, you'll love that series. And that if you can satisfy the fans of the genre enough so that they're the ones who want that book for the first 10 years of Game of Thrones existing only Fantasy fans, only Fantasy fans barn and read it. And I don't know if you knew any of these people, but these people kept going to people who work fancy fans going like, Oh my God, you have to read these books. They're amazing. And the manager like Gone, forget it. I'm not gonna read these big, thick fantasy books. Like I am a serious human being I am an adult. I do not read big, thick fancy books, and all the fantasy fans that was driving them crazy, cuz they're like, No, you will love it. It is literature. It is great. It is entertainment and literature and everything. And so that is such a big part of it. I talked about framing I talked about obviously, the dramatic question is something that screenwriting people talk about a lot. How, you know, establishing what Frank question is establishing what the what, what you're going to address at the end and what you're not going to dress and when it's going to be over and when it's not going to be over. You know, Star Wars is not about toppling the Empire. And if you get to the end of Star Wars, and you're like, what the Empire still standing, you know, this movie sucked. That would be that would be bad. They have to you know, they establish the drain question right away and always go like We have to get we have to get these plans to the rebels in order to because we have a plan for how to blow up the destiny. We got to plan for birth or we have to get it to the rebels. And then we're going to bought the Deathstar. And that's what this movie is about. And yes, you know, they don't even kill off Darth Vader. They leave it on unclear about whether he's dead, but they don't even clear up Darth Vader, and they don't. They certainly don't, you know, conquer the galaxy. And they have to establish their dramatic question right away. I talked about framing sequences I talked about parallel characters are great if you every time your character meets. And you know, your character should be constantly meeting characters that are like, Oh, I could end up like that. I could. This is the extreme version of what I'm thinking about being like, Oh, my God, this this person I'm on the verge of becoming, do I really want to become like that, look, this other character? Or if I don't do it, look at this other character who ended up dead. And that is a great way of establishing expectations. If you establish like, Oh my God, look at all these people. I could be this person. I want to be this person. I don't want to be this person who, you know, who tragically ended up dead because they didn't do the right thing. Or because they didn't do the right thing. What am I going to be? What is that?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
So it's like, are you going to be Darth Vader? Are you going to be Obi Wan? If you're Luke? That's the That's the question. Because you can go either way

Matt Bird 1:01:19
towards you're gonna be hot. Are you gonna? Or you're gonna reject the force? Yeah, does

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
exactly. So there's, there's that as opposed to the the prequels, you know, which have their place. But anagen had the choice of becoming Yoda. Or, or, or becoming who he or becoming the Emperor, essentially. And he chose poorly. If I may use Indiana Jones. He chose poorly.

Matt Bird 1:01:49
But we can see now

Alex Ferrari 1:01:51
there's a whole there's a whole episode that you and I could sit down and just deconstruct the the prequels

Matt Bird 1:01:59
for the rest of this because nobody's done that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:04
I'm sure no one. No, no, Georgia. People, I think, I think genius character. What are you talking about? Oh, I'm sorry. But this was awkward. Like, you know what, but with all that said, when you saw the trailer for Phantom Menace, oh, my God. Don't tell me you didn't.

Matt Bird 1:02:23
I worked in a movie theater. I and we could watch it over and over. And we did it. Trust

Alex Ferrari 1:02:28
me. i We all drank that Kool Aid. And when we walked in, I promise you when you walked out a Phantom Menace? Because you're you're of the similar generation as I was. You're close to my vintage, sir. You walked out a fan of minutes and said, Oh my god. That was amazing. The pod right? I mean, I did. I did.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:50
And then I did not. You did not. You did not like it. You did like it like I did not like

Alex Ferrari 1:02:55
so you didn't talk. I drank full kool aid on that one. But then I watched it. I watched it with my daughter a year or two ago. Just to introduce her. She's like, well, let me see that. You know, Anna, and I'm like, All right. Well, Jana, so we watched Phantom Menace, and I could barely watch it. It was so bad. It was so so I mean, great action sequences, great lightsaber battle, great pod raise. That was fun. But it was mind numbing. He was he was really bad.

Matt Bird 1:03:31
But anyway, really bad.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:32
I like I said, Well, like you said earlier. It's like you said earlier, we're not the first to discuss the prequels on the internet. Now, before we go, I'm gonna ask you a few questions to ask all of my guests. What are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?

Matt Bird 1:03:46
Oh, man, see, I listened to some of your old episodes. And I remember hearing us at and I thought, oh, okay, I shouldn't I shouldn't make sure that I that I answered it. And I don't, you know, a really underrated screenplay. When I was in film school. At one point they were throwing out a bunch of old issues of screenplay magazine. And that would always print for screenplays in the back. And I grabbed one I'm like, hey, that's good screenplay. I'll pick it up and read it. And I thought just on the page, one of my all time favorite screenplays is Donnie Brasco by Paul snazzy. Oh, no, it's great. It's great. Great movie and just brilliantly written on the page. And there's never been a better monologue in film history than the forget about it. monologue where they're talking about all the different all the different meanings of the phrase forget about it. I think that that is an absolutely brilliant screenplay. You know, if you're talking about my all time favorite movie, you know, that's Harold and Maude. And I feel like that is a perfect screenplay as well. And an absolutely absolutely brilliant absolutely heartbreaking. You know, there is no better ending, I think in film than the ending in that film. Um, let's see what I would say hard to choose. It's so hard to choose.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:01
I mean Spaceballs. Spaceballs obviously. Well,

Matt Bird 1:05:04
obviously, oh my god. On my own podcast, I just found out that my my, my co host has never seen Blazing Saddles. Oh, oh, it's just assumed it's bad and it's never seen it. So I'm gonna say so in honor of him. I'm gonna say Blazing Saddles for the third month, although, of course, let me tell you all right now, don't write Blazing Saddles. Today. You were never there amount of trouble or trying to do that.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:29
I when I saw I saw Blazing Saddles. When I was in the video working at the video store in high school, I saw Blazing Saddles. And at that point, I said, in the late 80s, early 90s, like, how did this movie get made? Like, even then, I was like, it was not nearly as taboo as it is today. And you watch it, and you just like, I can't believe you got away with it. And I'm like, they'll never be another movie to do something like this. And then bore out came out. I was like, okay. All right. That was and that was the last one and nothing like Bora has has has ever come back on screen since that. But those two specifically, they just pushed that envelope. So good, good. Good choices, good choices. Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Matt Bird 1:06:14
Well, hear is, you know, let me can I just, you know, I was thinking like, Oh, he's gonna ask me about business stuff. And that's not really my, my brand. But that's like you I do, because it's not my brand. I do have say about business that I haven't said a million times before and a million other podcast. Can I talk about the number one thing I wish that I had heard before, I had my heat and I was selling? Yeah, and that is what happens in a meeting. Okay? If you're on the counter and water tour, if you're going around, it's good. Bottles, couches, you're getting them you're getting the water. Here are the things I understand. The first thing I didn't understand is that this meeting is a consolation prize. You are getting this meeting because your manager agent sent you sent them your screenplay. They loved it. But they decided not to buy it. And they said, as a consolation prize, we're gonna meet with the guy. So if they had watched your screenplay, I always thought in like, oh, they asked me what you mean. That means like, what my screenplay, that means they're gonna buy it. And I would go in like, oh, I would go in there like, hey, you know, we're here to talk about how you're buying my screenplay. I would have this heartbreak every time of like, you're not even Why are you meeting with me if you're not even gonna buy it, because this is a consolation prize. So that's the first thing and is that they've read it. They loved it, but they decided not to buy it, they asked to meet with you instead. And then as a result, there's three phases to a meeting. And this took me forever to learn. And that's the first faces you talked about the thing that they read appears and they loved and they decided not to buy, and you maybe can talk them into buying in any way. But you've got to be very clear that that's not what you're doing. Like you understand that they loved it, that they're not going to buy it, and that you're not doing but you know, you're suddenly going like, maybe you should have bought it, maybe it shouldn't be your manager. So that's phase one. So there's three phases of beating. Phase one is talk about the thing that they read of yours that they liked, and maybe try to convince them by afterall. Phase two is open assignments. Hopefully, your HR manager has asked them in advance. What open assignments does this production company have? That that they are looking to hire writers for? What novels have the option that then they couldn't get anybody to crack? What what you know, idea, crazy ideas this producer have that he's trying to hire some screenwriter to do that. You want to find out what are your open assignments and you want to pitch them on what the open assignments are. Hopefully you found that advance with the open seminar and you prepare to pitch in advance. And then step three, is you're going to pitch them on your new one. And you're going to pitch them like then they're going to ask so what are you working on? And you're going to say Oh, I'm working on you know, it's about a cow who goes back to ancient France, you're working on whatever you're working on and you're gonna pitch them but that's the least likely thing that's going to come out of it is they're just going to buy a wild pitch from you. And because here is the number one thing I learned from selling and more importantly from not selling, and I have never gotten into reading a bunch of sales books and I'm sure there are sales books out there that say this but I've never encountered one. And to me, this is the number one lesson of sales. And then is that do not sell them what you came to Sell. Sell them with they came to buy. Oh when you were meeting with that's good when you were meeting with a buyer. They the only reason anybody ever meets with a salesman and that's what you are. You're a salesman. The only reason why anybody ever meets with a salesman is if they have to buy is if they are in trouble and they are out of product and they need new product and they're going to get fired if they don't buy new products. That's their whole job is to gather up new product and they're out of product. They're running out there in a panic they need to buy but they're not going to buy what you came to sell. They're going to buy what they came to buy, and they know that dynamic you don't you If you're just a young screenwriter, you don't know that yet. But once you have figured that out, then the game begins, you're playing a game, you're playing cat and mouse, where you are trying to trick them into telling you what they came to buy. And they are trying to hold their cards close to the vest. And they're, they want to hear your pitch and see if it's what they came to buy, they don't want to accidentally reveal to you the secret of what they have come to buy, because then you will pounce and pitch that to them. And this is true of if you're writing, you know, if you're writing specs, this is true. If you're writing, this is true, if you are doing adaptations, if you're pitching your take on a novel so that you can get hired to do the adaptation. Here's the biggest occasion I ever get hired to write, here's how I get cuz I'd worn this at this point. And I said, Oh, you know, this is an amazing novel. And it's going to be so tricky to adapt, because you can either go this way with it, or you could go this way with it. And then I shut up. And I said, Oh, it's so tricky. You can go this way, or this way or that. silence, awkward silence. Awkward silence. And they're like, Yeah, well, obviously, yeah, you got to do a, and I'm like, exactly.

I pitched them option A. Now I if they had said option fee, I would have pitched them option B. But you have to treat them that's into telling you what they came to buy. You know, the same thing is true. You know, there's a great story that Simon Kinberg told me at Columbia, because he went to Columbia. And then he came back to talk to some of the people there. And he talks about how, you know, his agent was like, I'm going to sit you get you set up, you're going to be pitching to universal. They want to hear horror pitches. And he of course is first thinking I'm going to sell them when I came to sell. I've got great horror movie. It's great. I know. It's great. They're gonna love it. I'm gonna I've got a half hour pitch for this great horror movie goes in pitches that they're like, no. It's like, Oh, crap, says, Well, I've got in the back of my head. I've got some 10 minute pitches for other good horror movies, pitches, 310 minute pitches, they're like, no, he's like, Well, I've got some five minute pitches. I'll try some of those. No, shut them all down. He's like, Well, this brings me down to I've got six different one line pitches, you know, or just titles, and he starts pitching those. And then he gets to his final pitch. He says, I just got to words, Ghost Town, and they say sold a million dollars, boom, here's the check. And he and then he said, and of course it's never got paid. And then of course after he had cashed the check, and he was like, you know, ci, you know, the other things I pitched you were so developed and they had these brilliant you know, twists and characters and, and everything that a story is supposed to have goes down, didn't have any of that watch by goes down. They're like, Well, what we really wanted is we won a horror movie that could be turned into a attraction at Universal Studios, Hollywood, and Universal Studios, Ryan, oh, and all your other movies you pitched us couldn't be turned into attractions at Universal Orlando. But as soon as you said Ghost Town, oh, it's a movie about an evil ghost town. It's about a haunted ghost town. And boom, we know how to do that we know how to build a ghost town at Universal Studios. And they and they did not tell him that at the beginning of the meeting, they did not tell him what they had to modify, because they know they are more specific than you are. They know that. If you are sophisticated, that if they tell you what they came to buy, then you're going to go well, what a coincidence. That's what I came to sell. So they know not to tell you what they came to buy. But they know in their heads, they they have come because they need to buy universal. That executive at Universal was told you have to do what nobody likes to do, which is you have to meet with sales. Nobody in the world wants to meet with a salesman. Alright, but you have to go out and meet with a bunch of salesman. Because we're out of material we don't, we need to build a new attraction at Universal Studios theme park. It's got to be based on one of our movies, none of our movies can be turned into attractions, Universal Studios in Bern, we've got to meet with some people, but let's not tell them what we want. Let's not tell them what we came to buy. And let's hope that they have something to sell. That happens to be what we want to buy. And your job as a screenwriter is to figure out what they came to buy and sell it to them.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:14
That is one of the best answers to that question ever. Now where can people find out about you and your work what you're doing?

Matt Bird 1:14:27
So, first and foremost, you can buy my book, The secrets of story, innovative tools for protecting your fiction and captivating readers. You can listen to my podcast secrets or podcasts, you can watch my youtube channel on the secrets of three YouTube channel. You can hire me to do manuscript consultation, go to the secrets of story.com I should say you could read my blog at the secrets of story.com and you could click on the top button on the upper right and click on manuscript consultation and you can hire me to do that. And also if you want to come homeschool my kids, then you could trade services then I can trade services with you. And you're just gonna have to wear a hazmat suit and homeschool my kids, and then I'll do anything for you. I'll paint your house.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:09
Fair enough, Matt, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on your show. Man, thank you so much for being on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe today, man, thank you so much.

Matt Bird 1:15:17
Thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:20
I want to thank Matthew for coming on the show and dropping major major knowledge bombs on the bulletproof screenwriting tribe today. Thank you. Again, Matthew. If you want to read his book, or check out his work, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 070. And guys, I have a special treat for you. If you are interested in getting a three part video series on screenwriting and how to write blockbusters in Hollywood today. Buy some Oscar winners, so multibillion dollar screenwriters, all you got to do is head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash free video series. Sign up for it there and you will get three amazing videos almost an hour in length total in your inbox. So just head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash free video series. I hope you and your family are safe and doing well during this crazy crazy time. Thank you again for listening. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 069: Introducing Indie Film Hustle Academy – Premium Screenwriting Education

Well, I’ve been busy during this quarantine. I was racking my brain on how I could provide more value to the Tribe so I create the IFH Academy. The IFH Academy is the home of exclusive online courses on filmmaking, screenwriting, film distribution, cinematography, and more.

I wanted to bring you the best film education I could so I partnered with industry powerhouses like award-winning film producer Suzanne Lyons, master cinematographer Suki Medencevic, A.S.C, and screenwriting guru and best-selling author Geoffrey D. Calhoun.

Screenwriting guru and best-selling author Geoffrey D. Calhoun and I teamed up to create The Screenwriter’s Guide to Formatting.

Don’t let formatting derail your screenplay. Learn how to format your screenplay in the Hollywood Standard. The course walks you through how to properly format your screenplay in the Hollywood standard. We breakdown formatting for the feature film, 30min multi-cam/single-cam television show, documentary, split-screen, scriptments, and the one-hour television drama.

Geoffery and I are working on more screenwriting courses cover structure, development, dialog, characters, and more.

Click here to access The Screenwriter’s Guide to Formatting


If you are a budding filmmaker/producer and want to learn how to produce a low-budget film then Suzanne’s Lyons course The Complete Indie Film Producing Workshop is for you.

Award-winning film producer Suzanne Lyons is about to take you from script to screen and beyond in this Mastermind workshop. After producing a number of bigger budget features Suzanne thought producing the SAG ultra-low and modified budget films would be a piece of cake. Boy, was she wrong.

Wearing 100 different hats was a challenge and she learned so much. And now she will be sharing all that great info with you. This workshop is unique in that it will literally guide you through the entire process of making your film. For special pricing click here.

You can sign up for a FREE 3 Part Video Training on Low Budget Film Producing so you can get a taste for the course.


Check out Suki’s game-changing cinematography course Light and Face – The Art of Cinematography

This workshop will walk you through how to light the most important and emotional subject you could put in front of your lens, the enigmatic face on a low budget. This workshop is unique in that it will literally guide you through the entire process of making your film. Taught by award-winning cinematographer Suki Medencevic A.S.C.


Along with these great instructors I’ll be creating exclusive courses as well. After getting bombarded with requests to create this course I finally took action to bring it to you, the Tribe. My first course out of the gate with be: Film Distribution Blueprint

This course will be the course I wish I had when I was trying to sell my first film. It will cover how to protect yourself from predatory film distributors and aggregators, what to look for in a distribution agreement, VOD Myths, film deliverables, working with sales agents and producers reps, film markets, and much more.

If you sign up now you can get early access and special pricing. Click here


As you can see I’ve been busy. I plan to create a Filmtrepreneur Masterclass as well as many more exclusive courses for IFH Academy. So if you are quarantined at home right now, and let’s face it you probably are, there is no better time to start adding tools to your toolbox.

I truly hope these courses can help you on your filmmaking or screenwriting path. I have big plans for IFH Academy. New courses, world-class instructors, and much more. Take a look around the site and let me know what you think.

Be well and stay safe out there. As always keep that hustle going and keep that dream alive. I’ll talk to you soon.

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Now I wanted to put this episode together it's a quick episode because I wanted to announce what I have been working on for the past month or so. As you know, this quarantine has gotten me locked in. And that's a dangerous place for me to be because I just have ideas and things I want to do for the tribe and to be of more service to you guys. I launched bulletproof screenwriting.tv About a month and a half ago. So that's an entire brand new website that I launched. And now I would like to announce officially that we are launching i f h academy or indie film hustle Academy, and at the indie film hustle Academy, you will have top and world class education for film and screenwriting. I am partnering with some of the biggest and best instructors and thought leaders in the filmmaking and screenwriting space. And I wanted to bring something to the tribe that was next level to take their filmmaking or screenwriting journey to that next place to really be of service to the community. And I think we've been able to do that with ifH Academy. Now ifH Academy will be releasing high end courses, very premium courses, and we are launching with some amazing ones that I like to share with you. Now first up, of course is Suzanne Lyons complete indie film producing workshop. If you haven't taken this workshop before, this course is in sane it completely covers everything you need to know about producing a low budget feature film, from soup to nuts. Suzanne has been a guest on the show many times before. And she has over a dozen independent feature films that she has put out there that have been profitable. And she goes through her entire process on how she produces her feature films from optioning a screenplay all the way to final deliverables, and I even make a cameo talking about film deliverables. The next course, I'm going to talk to you about I'm extremely excited for its light and face the art of cinematography. And it is taught by Sukima des KOVITCH, a sc. He's been on the show before he is a world class cinematographer with insane credits under his belt. He's been working in the industry for over 25 years, and he is truly a master of cinematography. A member of the American Society of cinematographers he has taught at USC film school and the New York Film Academy. And he wanted to create a course that would teach filmmakers how to light a scene with the very bare minimum from an open light bulb to Christmas lights to an iPad flashlights all the way to Kino flows. For now lights, China lamps, everything but he teaches you how to craft the lighthouse To shape the light, it is an amazing course I've been, I've lit a couple of I've lit a bunch of stuff in my day. But obviously I'm in no where the same caliber as Suki is. And when I watched the course, I learned so much I was so excited. It's unlike anything else in the world right now. And he takes you from a bare bulb, one light bulb all the way to how to create, like a Blade Runner style look, or film noir or romantic comedy, or fantasy or action, he kind of goes through every step, but he takes you through the journey step by step, by the end of the course, you will understand so much more about cinematography, even if you're not going to light yourself, you'll at least understand it more and be able to have better conversations with your cinematographer. Now that course specifically, I am launching today and you have until May 23 To be an early adopter of that course, if you buy the course, between now and May 23, which is about two weeks, you'll be able to gain access to this course at the introductory early adopter price. Now that price will never ever, ever come back. This is the cheapest This course will ever be. And it will never come back to that course No, no other deals, no other anything, it will not come back at that price again. So if you want it, this is the time to take action. Now if you're a screenwriter, we've got you covered as well. We have the screenwriters guide to formatting. I teamed up with Jeffrey Calhoun from the scripts Summit, and the writer of a guide for every screenwriter, the best selling book. And we designed this course to teach you the not only basics of screenplay formatting, but all the nuances all the insider tips and tricks that the industry expects or wants to see but it's not really spoken about too much out there in the world. And I learned a bunch about formatting about what what is what is acceptable nowadays, what's not acceptable nowadays, it is kind of an ever changing BCS, the basics of screenplay formatting stays the same. But a lot of other things, a lot of things that were popular are not popular now. So this is a really great course to get you started and Geoffrion are working on a lot of other mini courses for the screenwriters Guide regarding development regarding ideas, structure, plot, dialogue character, how to sell how to pitch. All of this is coming to ifH Academy in the coming months. And I also included two other courses the definitive Super 16 millimeter filmmaking workshop, and the complete cinema camera lens primer, which is taught by Egon Stefan Jr, a veteran cinematographer. And if you want to know about cinema lenses, that course is for you without question, it goes over two hours, breaking down cinema lenses, breaking down super 16 lenses, as well as rigs, and everything in between and really gives you a great primer to lenses. And of course that other one the definitive Super 16 millimeter filmmaking workshop if you're interested in shooting Super 16 This is the workshop for you. It is a best selling workshop and the only one of its kind in the world. And finally, my biggest and most exciting course, after many, many years of people asking me to do this, I finally sat down and started to work on this. It's called film distribution confidential. After all, the buckle with distributor and everything I was granted real inside information in regards to how the world of distribution works. And I've been studying it for the past year. And I wanted to put together a resource something that will help filmmakers through the path of traditional distribution of working with a traditional distributor sales agents, producers reps, and really understand what distributors can do for you in the positive and in the negative. I'll be going over how to avoid predatory film distributors, film aggregators, the pros and cons, what to look for in distribution agreements, VOD myths, film deliverables, working with sales agents, theatrical releases for walling day and date releases, event unlimited exhibition theatrical releases cross collateralization self releasing on amazon prime in today's world, you know, insurance marketing caps, and so, so much more. I'm going to be filling this course with anything and everything you would need to know to partner with a film distributor and how to maximize your film release through that revenue channel. And if you want to sign up to get first an early access to that course it is all on I FH academy.com I hope you guys are excited about ifH Academy I definitely am. I've been working extremely hard developing it and trying to, again be as much of service to the tribe as I possibly can. I hope this education I hope ifH Academy will help you guys on your path. People who have started taking these courses, who have been I've been quietly releasing it or little bit by little bit to some early adopters. People are absolutely going crazy really love the courses like Suzanne's courses, and Sue keys course. People are extremely, extremely excited about this as I am. So thank you guys for listening. If you want to get access to anything, just head over to if h academy.com. Or you can check over at the show notes. Check out the trailer for ZooKeys new course. And links to everything else at the show notes at Indie film hustle.com Ford slash 387. And this is a no a special episode and early episode. But you're going to get a full blown episode tomorrow, which I will have Suki Milkovich on the show talking about cinematography, talking about the do's and don'ts, what the world is like today for film production in this Corona 19 world that we live in how Hollywood is going to look, post Coronavirus, how he's dealing with this new format that quibi is creating, which is high end multi format capture systems. We're going to talk about all of that stuff. And I'm excited to bring it to you guys. So thank you for listening guys. I hope you guys are doing well in the quarantine. We will get through this. Hopefully ifH Academy will give you some great tools to put in your toolbox while you're waiting and preparing to get back out there and start following that filmmaking or screenwriting dream. Thank you guys again for listening. As always keep on writing no matter what. Stay safe, and I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 068: Skipping First-Time Screenwriting Mistakes with Naomi Beaty

Today on the show we have former studio executive turned screenwriting teacher and screenplay consultant Naomi Beaty. She is essentially an on-call development partner to screenwriters, producers, and directors at all levels. From those just starting out, to those firmly established and working in the industry today.

She lived and worked in L.A. for over a decade, read thousands of scripts, and worked with hundreds of writers through one-on-one consulting, creating the Idea to Outline workshop, and teaching story structure for Save the Cat. I’ve worked with producers internationally and consulted on the 2016 Raindance Film Festival “Indie Film of the Year” winner, Selling Isobel.

As a former development exec-in-training at Madonna and Guy Oseary’s Maverick Films, she worked on projects like Twilight, Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, and The Stanford Prison Experiment.

In this episode, we get into the weeds about mistakes screenwriters make and what studios are looking for. Enjoy my talk with Naomi Beaty.

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Alex Ferrari 1:24
I'd like to welcome to the show Naomi Beaty. How are you?

Naomi Beaty 3:03
I'm good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 3:05
Thank you so much for being on the show. I truly appreciate it. We've been playing phone tag for a little bit. So with all this craziness going on in the world, it's difficult to to get to get on. But I really appreciate you coming on. Now I wanted to ask you first question, how did you get into the business?

Naomi Beaty 3:22
Oh, well, I moved to LA with a hope and a dream. And basically, a week later, I was working as an assistant to a producer manager that was the first person I worked for in LA and really just started learning about the business through that job. I really had no, I knew that movies were made somehow I had no idea how they were made or who made them. So that first job was really a big, you know, a big part of my education and just giving me sort of an overview of how the industry work.

Alex Ferrari 3:59
And you work a lot with screenwriters obviously.

Naomi Beaty 4:03
I do. Yeah, I work with screenwriters every day, and how

Alex Ferrari 4:05
did you get into that side of the business?

Naomi Beaty 4:08
Well, so after working for that producer manager, I went to work in development at another production company and so got to sort of really see the the nuts and bolts of what what happens in development. And then after that I went to work for Blake Snyder on his he was working on his second book. And so he helped me or he asked me to come in, he helped me he asked me to come help him work on that book. And and after that, you know, I feel like people just started sort of approaching me and asking me to give them notes on their scripts. And then it became what I did full time.

Alex Ferrari 4:46
So very nice. And how was it working with Blake? Oh, he's,

Naomi Beaty 4:50
I mean, he was a great guy. You know, he I actually met him through my first job. He was friendly with the producer manager that I worked for So I had known him for a few years before he was writing that second book and asked me to come help out on it. And he was just always one of those guys who was super generous with his time, always took a genuine interest in people, you know. So yeah, it was a good experience.

Alex Ferrari 5:15
And for people who don't know, Blake is Blake Schneider wrote the the pinnacle book, if you will call save the cat, which has kind of revolution revolutionized Hollywood, that's for sure when that book came out, and so many people, because I think he was the first one to kind of really simplify structure in a way that no one had before. Is that fair to say?

Naomi Beaty 5:40
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's one of the things that makes it or it sort of an enduring, you know, go to and kind of the screenwriting education space is because it makes structure so accessible. And so I, you know, I always recommend the cat is sort of, if someone's interested in learning about structure, that's like the first place, I think you should go. Because even though there's much more to learn after that, and you know, you can read a lot of other books that gives you like, a really good concise and accessible overview of how structure works.

Alex Ferrari 6:09
Now, when you've written you've you've read a few screenplays in your day, I'm assuming. So what is the biggest mistake you see in either seasoned scripts? Or fresh new writer scripts?

Naomi Beaty 6:24
Gosh, that's a big question. Because I think there are, you know, there are you read enough scripts and you sort of see patterns, there are a lot of sort of buckets that the, you know, issues fall into. I would say maybe for beginning screenwriters working on their first or second screenplay, it's not really understanding how to create sort of a forward momentum in the story. They're, they have scenes and maybe visuals in their head, but they don't really understand that each scene needs to make progress in the plot, or in the character development or something, you know what I mean? So it's sort of when you read those scripts that can feel you know, like, we're just observing somebody's thoughts versus watching a story play out watching a character pursue something.

Alex Ferrari 7:13
Yeah, I've, when I've read scripts, a lot of times it is, especially from first time writers, they they will just sit there and then like, I always use the room, the infamous the room for like scenes, like you're supposed to cut out stuff that is not necessary. And yet, there's this one scene, it's just so I love that movie, by the way, is like when he come there's a scene where they come into a coffee shop and order coffee. But you see two other people order coffee before the main characters walk in, they have no meaning. whatsoever. Yeah. And that's the kind of stuff you're talking about. Right?

Naomi Beaty 7:50
Yeah, I think that that that movie could be really educational. A lot of people. But yeah, that's, that's a great example. It's sort of like, I guess, I guess, in any form of storytelling, you want to get to a point. And you don't want to get to the point to the degree that, you know, there, there's no sort of detail or ornamentation or suspense built or something like that. But you do want to keep things moving, because people get bored really quickly. So, you know, that's really the thing that I don't know that the thing that you should keep in mind all the time, it's like, what's your readers reaction to this? Or your audience's reaction to this? Are they engaged by this? If not, like, let's move it along. You know,

Alex Ferrari 8:32
and when, you know, a lot of a lot of screenwriters, when I I talked to them, they always ask me like, What is the? Like, what's the magic number? As far as how many pages you got to be really, you know, to grab somebody's attention? Like, how long do I have before the reader just throws it away? Because there's 6000 other scripts that they have to read?

Naomi Beaty 8:53
Yeah, I've heard a range of things. I mean, for myself, because I'm usually working with the writer. So obviously, I'm reading the whole thing, and I'm giving it all of my attention. But, you know, if you are submitting a script to someone who doesn't sort of have that obligation to you, right, and they're reading it to see what's in it for them. I mean, I've heard people say, they can tell within the first couple of pages, whether they want to keep reading, and I think it is true, like the the point of every page is to make you want to turn the page and read the next one, right. So each page does have to be engaging, but I think I really, if I'm just reading a script for fun, which hardly ever happens anymore, but if I am I mean, just for pleasure, you know, I really noticed that if something isn't happening within the first 15 pages, if it doesn't feel like I know that the story has started and I have a sense of kind of what we're dealing with and where it's going. I'm sort of like, I don't have any more time to spend on this, you know,

Alex Ferrari 9:53
and well, okay, so when you're when you're reading these scripts, the description dialogue, obviously, are very important. Can you please explain to the audience the importance of the white page? And how keeping it as white as possible? Because that was when I was first writing. And writing my first scripts, I thought it was a novel. And I received so much description and so much detail, it was just like I was so I was so happy with myself, because I was writing all this beautiful, colorful 75 cent words even Oh, it's great.

Naomi Beaty 10:32
Yeah, and I bet every every word of that description was poetry.

Alex Ferrari 10:36
Oh, it was it was, I don't know why Hollywood never just understood my genius, I just don't understand.

Naomi Beaty 10:43
Well, I will say so whitespace on the page is important. I mean, a lot of people talk about, you know, not wanting to look at the first page of a script and see a wall of black, right? Because it just, it sort of makes your heart think if you're like, Oh, this is what I'm going to be reading. Cool. Okay, you know, like, you want it to feel sort of breezy, and like there's movement, and whitespace helps you give that feeling, right, it's, it makes the read faster, which is something that you should be striving for anyway, right? It sort of helps our eye traveled down the page, if it's not just a block of black and you know, you're sort of like, your your eye is moving across the lines in a way that that is swift and sort of carries us and adds momentum to the story. So all those reasons, I think it's important to think about whitespace. And really, you know, the more text you put on the page, the more the more, the more information you're giving your reader to process. And that both slows down the read, just, you know, sort of the logistics of reading it, it slows you down. But then it also, you know, it makes it hard for the reader to sort of key in on the important aspects of what you're telling us, right? If you're telling us lots of stuff. We're like, Okay, who am I supposed to be paying attention to which actions are the most important which reactions are the most important? So for that reason, you know, sort of cutting away the things that are less important is helpful to the reader, because you're focusing our mind's eye on what really does matter in the story. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 12:20
mean, when I when I wrote, when I write books, I feel so much more free. Because I could just write and write and write and I don't have to worry about this kind of like economy of words, but screenwriting is such a specific skill that you need to be able to get the point across. Well, well written Brit, like you said, breezy is a great word. Breezy. Like I always I love reading Shane Black scripts, especially stuff he did back in the 80s in the 90s. I mean, his descriptions were just they were poetry, but they're one line one or two lines. Yeah, great.

Naomi Beaty 12:57
That is that's a talent to be able to describe things so concisely, but evocatively I mean that is, you know, like you said, that really is poetry. So

Alex Ferrari 13:07
yeah, and and then Sorkin for so Sorkin and Tarantino for dialogue, like you, you read, you read their dialogue, and it's just so crispy and it just pops.

Naomi Beaty 13:18
Yeah, it's great. And with Sorkin you don't even mind that his you know, his first draft is 140 pages. Because it's so much fun it's so fun to read you know,

Alex Ferrari 13:30
the walk What is it the walk and talk that was his that's his thing is to walk and talk he does the walk and talk very, very well. Now, dialogue is one area of screenwriting that a lot of there's so many areas of screenwriting people get have difficulty with the dialogue is one of them because people will write the the dreaded on the nose dialogue, which I was I definitely did a lot of that. I remember my first coverage and some of my first screenplays and, and you know, the reader was like, on the nose and I'm like, what, and I didn't even know what under nose meant. And I had to look it up. I was like, wow, okay, so can you explain on the nose dialogue? Can you explain little tips and tricks of how to get away from on the nose dialogue? Because I think it is a, a kind of a cursor cancer, the screenwriting space if I'm not mistaken.

Naomi Beaty 14:19
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, good dialogue is is sort of like pornography, right? It's like, you know, what, when you see it,

Alex Ferrari 14:28
you can't it's not Yeah, got it.

Naomi Beaty 14:32
It is hard to to tell someone, okay, this is bad dialogue. So this is how to make it better because there are so many sort of elements that go into making dialogue good, like what we would call good, right? That's sort of it gets the story points across that you need it to so it's like action in words right. And then also that it brings out the character it. It sort of conveys character in the choice of words and all that stuff. So. So it's I think it's very hard to sort of talk about style, like improving dialogue. But since you asked about on the note dialogue, I would say on the nose dialogue is dialogue that states outright exactly what the character is thinking. And or exactly what they're requesting, you know exactly what they're asking for. And so reading conversations that are very on the nose can often feel really boring, because it's just it's, I don't know, it's like, it's like, sparring listening. Well, yeah, it's like listening to the, you know, to the, like, boring married couple in the next booth over there conversation and you're like, wow, there is no flirtation here. There's no like, you know what I mean? Like, usually, if you see people on a first date, there's, there's a lot of subtext, right? Because they're sort of like, doing the seduction thing, without saying it because they're on a first date. They don't know each other that well. But if you listen to an old married couple, you're like, wow, they're just coming right out with whatever is on their mind and whatever they want the other person to do or say or think, you know, so I've digressed. But I think that on the nose dialogue, I think of it as just coming right out and saying exactly what's on the character's mind.

Alex Ferrari 16:10
So yeah, I would agree with you, going back to my wife and I, his first date, and how we talk now is completely different than then because now it's just like, Look, man, this is just the way it is. And, and there is something to be said. That's why as I forgot, I think it was Rhonda Sykes who says, as you get older, you give less of a crap about anything. That's why when your ad the guy will walk out in his in his underwear with his robe on and his socks in public, and he just doesn't care. And he'll say whatever he wants to say, because he's just given he's just given it up. Without question,

Naomi Beaty 16:45
well, I think, you know, to go back to like, sort of the first date versus like, married couple conversations, right? I, there's, I'm certainly not putting down the conversations of married couples, because they think but if you've been together for a lot of years, you figure out that you have to ask for exactly what you want, right? Because otherwise, he's not going to take out the garbage or she's not going to like find your shirt for you, or whatever it is. So you, you figure out that you have to sort of come right out and that that person is not going to mind that you're coming right out and asking for what you want, right? But on the first date, those two people are still trying to figure out what they can ask for and how they can get what they want from the other person. And so it's much more of a game, right? So, you know, that might be a terrible, like, metaphor. Oh, no,

Alex Ferrari 17:31
no, it makes all the sense in the world. Because the only time my wife and I have any issues is what she wants. She wants me to read her mind. So if I just like, can you? I didn't you understand what I was saying? I'm like, why didn't you just tell me you wanted to do that I would have been more than happy to do that. You know, men are very simple creatures as a simple they're just very blunt. We're blunt objects. We are blunt objects. This should be dialogue in a script right now this is this is going back and forth. Now you

Naomi Beaty 18:01
can just tell you're just be more on the nose, honey. On the nose,

Alex Ferrari 18:06
just be on the nose, just be on the nose. Now, you did say something called you said you mentioned the word called subtext, which is something that is another area of dialogue writing that is really, I think, misunderstood and very underused. Because if you start analyzing old movies, or just good well written movies will perform movies. A look can say 1000 Words, a motion, you know that he put the glass down, you know, he watched the dishes, the way he was washing the dishes, or the way she was washing the dishes, said volumes about what was going on, because he just knew that she was cheating on him or he was cheating on her or something like that. That's subtext in my opinion. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

Naomi Beaty 18:48
Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe the simplest way for me to think about subtext is sort of what's what's really going on in the scene beyond just what the characters are sort of telling us with their with their words, or their dialogue, right? Or even their simple actions. So what is the scene really about? Versus what are each of the characters pretending that? You know? So that's kind of like the general way, I guess, I would think about subtext. But subtext also has a lot to do. I mean, it has a ton to do with, you know, the character's motivations and them trying to get what they really want, without being too obvious about it and all that stuff. But it also has a ton to do with theme, right, and what the sort of what the story is about, kind of in the big picture. So I think another way to think about subtext is like, when you step back from the movie, what was it really saying or what was it really trying to convey? And then how was that sort of layered into every scene as well?

Alex Ferrari 19:53
There's a scene in the body guard Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner's body guard where I think the old personal bodyguard of Whitney and he comes in and he feels threatened. And there was something that happened that they went they the kitchen scene, if you remember the kitchen scene where I think Kevin Costner is eating an apple, and the other guy comes in, and they say no words, and they just start to fight. And you know, and it's just this back and forth of like, who's who's in control, who's the alpha. And at the very end, without saying words, it was just motion at the very end, Kevin cautious was like, I just want to talk about this again, and why it was so great when it was so wonderfully but but that's subtext, and in a broader way, but it is subtext. Yeah, good subtext is, it just makes the scene?

Naomi Beaty 20:42
Yeah, yeah, it really does. And that sounds like a great example, I'll have to go back and revisit that one and look at it. Another one that comes to mind. And this is a little bit, this is a little bit less, sort of, you know, pure subtext, what we're talking about and a little bit more just really clever execution. But if you remember that scene in the wire, where they go to the crime scene, and the only dialogue in the scene is the F bomb. You remember that? They're solving, they're solving the crime as they're looking around this crime. But the only word they use remember so much that you're like, I know exactly what's going on in their heads. I know exactly what they're saying. Even though it's only one word, you know, it was

Alex Ferrari 21:28
it was I remember that it was the kitchen, it was in the kitchen. And they were kind of going back and forth. It was just like F bomb F bomb F bomb F bomb all over the place. And at the I remember, turning my wife I was like, that was really amazing. See? Yeah, cuz they said, good.

Naomi Beaty 21:45
Oh, I can say and again, that's, that's a little bit less like the kind of subtext that we're talking about and a little bit more just like really clever execution and great performance. But it does, like if you watch it, it does still give you an idea of what can be done. What can be said without saying it directly. You know,

Alex Ferrari 22:01
Can you give any tips on subtext because I think it is just a part of dialogue, writing that is not talked about enough. And it's so powerful. If you if you can nail it, it's so like that, see that those two scenes I just said, that we just talked about? Yeah,

Naomi Beaty 22:15
yeah, well, I think I think probably the place to start is by understanding what your characters are really doing in the scene, and then finding a way to so it's sort of, I think, I think a lot of times writers come at a scene thinking that they know, you know, what each character wants, and then they just start writing the scene out without really thinking about how to construct the theme in maybe the most interesting way or, you know, unexpected way, right? And I think if you start back there and think about what what do each of my characters really want? And why can't they just come right out and say it right? Then think about, like, what might they do to try to get that, since they can't come out and say it, might they you know, come into the scene acting angry when they're not really angry and start, you know, pick a fight about something else, because they're really trying to get her to, I don't know, admit she's mad about this other thing, or whatever it is, right? It's like, figure out what that subtext is what's really going on kind of underneath what they're going to do, or what they're going to say. And then if you know that, then you can sort of build the scene on top of that, so that they're going after those hidden wants, if that makes sense.

Alex Ferrari 23:30
Now, what makes a good protagonist?

Naomi Beaty 23:35
Oh, that's a that's a big question, too. I mean, I think it's somebody that we want to watch, right? Like that. They have to be compelling to us in some way. And that can happen in a lot of different ways. They can be really sympathetic, they can, you know, they can be the underdog. They can be somebody who's really good at what they do, so that we're just fascinated by watching them do their thing, John Wick comes to mind, right? You know, they can be somebody who's really funny, I think that they just have to be compelling to us in some way. And there's a lot of different ways to achieve that.

Alex Ferrari 24:08
And a lot of you know, there's a lot of talk about the hero's journey, and it is a staple of all stories in one way, shape or form. Though even the detective story can't have a hero's journey as much there are certain limitations to it but but like a character like James Bond, one of the most famous characters of all time, he never changes. There is no hero's arc for him. He is the exact same person except for maybe the Daniel Craig versions he got he became a little bit more especially in the Casino Royale that was just such up. That's why it was such a revolution that he showed his armor so all those first like 20 or 15 movies. It was just him being cool all the time and always winning and just nothing he never changed. But when you added a human element to it he elevated bond to a play He said it hadn't ever been elevated to would you agree? Oh, yeah,

Naomi Beaty 25:03
I do agree. And I think you, you know, I I am not so well versed in James Bond. I haven't seen all the movies or anything but the dad was a huge James Bond fan. And I remember that at cool character that you're describing, like, that was really the entertainment hook that people were sort of interested in for that movie. And I think just by the time, you know, the Daniel Craig ones came around, it's sort of like, there's so much more competition in that space, right. Like, the storytelling just had to be a little bit different. You know, it had to hit sort of different appeals in order for for people to have the same kind of like fervor for it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 25:42
Yeah, I mean, well, there's also I think, when when Sean Connery was doing James Bond, there was an Ironman or Thor or the Avengers and this is like, obscene amount of competition in the heroic Yeah, space.

Naomi Beaty 25:53
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you think about is like Fast and Furious, like every, like every action movie now has that sort of cool. Well, not every action movie I guess. But there's a lot of action movies with like very cool heroes even John Wick like we just mentioned. So there's so much more competition.

Alex Ferrari 26:09
Yeah, John would love to talk about John because he's because I know him personally, obviously. But yeah, I mean, he I know we hang all the time. No, John Wick I found very interesting of a character because he is a character. Where as as people looking at stories or listening to stories or watching stories, we are attracted to people who are the best at whatever they do. Rain Man comes to mind even though Raman and Dustin Hoffman's character had, he was just a prodigy and, and to wick is a prodigy of violence. But his character, like what I found so wonderful about him is that everywhere he went, people were like, Hey, John. Hey, John. Like everyone, just like, they just talked about him. He was like a legend before he walks in the room. I just started watching because I'm in quarantine like the rest of us. I'm catching up with a lot of TV that haven't watched. I just started the blacklist. And I had never watched the blacklist before. And James Peters character is has John Wick aspects to him. I don't know if you've ever watched that show or not

Naomi Beaty 27:12
interesting. I've seen a couple of episodes. But go on. Tell me more about

Alex Ferrari 27:15
because I think because Because James Spader is he's just so all the bad guys know who he is like, he walks up to me like, oh, yeah, I remember that time in Paris. I remember that. And he has so much power and influence outside of himself, that the world explains that to us, and makes his character so and he's also extremely confident. He's always 15 steps ahead of the FBI. He's always 15 steps ahead of everybody. He's so good at what he does, and he's a bad guy. Arguably, he is not a villain. But he is not a good guy. He does bad things. And he has done bad things for 20 odd years. So his character is so wonderfully rich and that way, same thing with Hannibal Lecter. I mean, you're rooting for a cannibal, a serial killing cannibal. That is brilliant writing is brilliant performance. It's brilliant direction. It's a combination of all of that. Because you know, without honor Anthony Hopkins, you know, I don't know if Hannibal pops up if the wrong actor in that space. And it's gone. And without, without Jodie Foster as the you know, the other side because you need the other side of the coin. Ross it doesn't work.

Naomi Beaty 28:26
Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, Silence of the Lambs is one of my favorites. And obviously, like a classic, you know, classic, iconic, iconic film, but I think something that you just said is actually a really good sort of tip trick to pass on to people, which is, you know, don't forget about the reactions to your character, because that can tell you so much about who the person is not just their actions coming into the scene, but how how are all the other characters? How are they how's the world around that character treating them because that says a lot, right? I mean, it makes it makes so much sense.

Alex Ferrari 28:59
Yeah, wick doesn't have to say a word. He never says a word. He never says a word about how good he is ever. He's a man of action. And everybody around him explains to the audience who the hell just when you see the most powerful drug lord or bad guy shake at the mention of the guy's name. You're like, oh, man, and then and then Kiato just you know, he's Kiana. Like, it's, it's it's just, it's the Kanto Renaissance, as they call it, they call it now it's just like he's everyone's finally coming back to like, Ken is really cool.

Naomi Beaty 29:33
Yeah. Like that really is sort of like the new the new James Bond. Right? You know what I mean? He's so cool. And like I you know, I'm not saying that John Wick is a perfect movie, but I forgive it. Anything that I would normally disagree with movie just because it's so much fun to watch. And he's so great. So yeah,

Alex Ferrari 29:52
and never underestimate fun. You know, I mean, look Fast and Furious is there's a man I mean, look at the fascination He says, I've been watching since the first one came out in the theater. And, you know, the first one was point break. Let's just be honest, it was Point Break, they stole Point Break. It's exactly the same story, they just put cars instead of servers. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show it's literally a complete ripoff. I have no idea how they got away with that. But they did.

Naomi Beaty 30:29
You know, what makes you do what makes the first Fast and Furious. So good, though, and I will, I will argue this point too, is that it's all about family. So

Alex Ferrari 30:39
that's all they ever say. I know

Naomi Beaty 30:40
they really like build that into the story though, in a way that I'm like, I can get behind this. This means something to these people you know, so and then

Alex Ferrari 30:49
that's honestly the thing that's held the whole franchise together honestly, it's you know, they went from car car racers to basically James Bond they basically become James Bond with cars now. And and now Hobbs and Shaw and all the other spin offs. It's it's amazing to see how how that movies go. And I was talking to my wife about it the other day, and we're like, yeah, you want to see if we just know where you go. You know what you're going to get when you watch a fast appears. It's very, you just know what the kind of story you're going to get the kind of movie you're going to get. Same thing with, like the mission impossibles I was watching. I was watching a great video essay in regards to Ethan Hunt. You know, Tom Cruise's character and how many? He said seven, six of them now six of them. I think he was working on numbers. I think he was on six and he was working on seven before they shut it down in Italy. We don't really know a lot about Ethan Hawke Ethan Hunt. Like there's there's just no infrom after all these cease movies. It's very little kind of really know about them.

Unknown Speaker 31:56
It's interesting. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 31:59
we know more about wick we know more about wick than we know about Ethan Hunt.

Naomi Beaty 32:02
That's true. That's true. And I think that that you know, it still works for people they do manage to sort of bring in just enough about him when we need it in order to kind of like you know, build in that emotion or the the emotional stakes of the story or whatever right they don't go into and we don't need to know a ton about we don't need to know how many brothers and sisters he has or you know what city he grew up in or or any of that.

Alex Ferrari 32:28
It's not about family. It's not about that about family at all. Um, so you've been bumping around Hollywood for a little bit. Can you explain a little bit about the power of the logline and how important that is to screenwriters trying to get their their scripts seen because a lot of times the logline will pretty much be the first the first entry point and if the logline doesn't work, they're not going to read the script. Is that fair to say?

Naomi Beaty 32:55
Yeah, well, yeah, I think in a lot of cases, yeah. Because especially if you're, you know, sending a query letter query, email, or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 33:05
This is letter use, what is this letter?

Naomi Beaty 33:08
showing my age there? But no, but I think if you are querying someone, you know that logline is important because you're you're sort of cold calling them you're coming out of nowhere and saying, I have this thing that I think you might be interested in. And you're basically giving hopefully giving them one sentence that will entice them to ask for the script, right? So in that way, it can be very important. I don't want to play so much emphasis, though, like, if you if you don't have a good logline, you'll never make it in the

Alex Ferrari 33:33
industry. So but but it does help.

Naomi Beaty 33:37
Right? Yes, it can. It can be very, very helpful. And I think it can be helpful in a lot of, or in a few different circumstances. One being while you're developing your story, because I think a lot of times, you know, writers get excited about an idea, but they don't fully think through the story before sort of like jumping in. Especially if you know if they're like new to screenwriting, and they're like, I can see the whole thing in my head. I'm just going to start writing and sometimes that works. But sometimes that ends up with, you know, 500 pages of we're trying to figure out what the story is, right? So I think a lot line can be really useful when you're developing your story idea, because it forces you to sort of think through the story and explain it in one sentence. And so it's a low time and energy investment for you to figure out, does my story work? Do I have a story here? Do I have something that can be translated into a screenplay, right? And then like you were saying, for pitching or writing query letters, a logline can be really useful because if you can write a good version of that logline that it really can entice someone to ask for the script. And it can, you know, open that that door to getting you read.

Alex Ferrari 34:44
And also if I found that if you're not able to write what your story is about in two sentences or three at the most, you're probably going to have a difficult time getting anyone not only to read it, but if you can't say it, they're not going to probably get it within you know, it's that quick of thing and talking about high concept and so on. Especially if you're going into Hollywood you need those kind of generalized like, you know, a shark terrorizes a shark terrorizes a New England town during the summer, whatever it was summer break or July 4. And yeah, then three guys go and try to kill it. I mean, that's pretty, you know, dinosaurs are alive on an island. I mean, it's

Naomi Beaty 35:26
like, and what is what the what writing a logline when you're developing your idea what that forces you to do is to sort of set down your your story in concrete terms and make sure that you because you're writing a movie, right? So you have to be able to write it in a way that we're going to, you know, it's externalized, it's dramatized, we're going to see it play out visually in front of us. And I think a lot of times the hardest stories to logline concisely are the ones that don't have that external concrete sort of element. Right? So there's a lot of sort of, you know, circling like, well, it's about somebody who explores the trauma that they experienced. And then they have to, you know, reconcile and decide if they can move forward, and you're like, but what am I watching, I don't know what that looks like on screen. And so the logline really does force you to sort of go, Okay, here's the externalization, like, here's the dramatization of this story. So I'm, I'm describing it to you in concrete terms, because that's what I'm going to be putting on screen, you know,

Alex Ferrari 36:27
no, do you recommend outlining? Screen a story prior to screenwriting?

Naomi Beaty 36:32
I do. I mean, I'm a huge Outliner, I think that I think you do the same amount of work, regardless of where in the process, you do it. But if you, if you outline, I think it's, it's less painful, when you go through that process, you know. So I know there are people who are who are Panthers, who really like to just sit down and explore and discover on the page and all that stuff. And I think you'll end up doing Panthers and plotters, you'll end up doing the same amount of work regardless, but I think it's, it's, at least for me, it makes more sense to sort of do that heavy lifting up front, think through your choices before writing 100 pages about them. And then that way, it's a little bit easier and quicker to pivot, you know, if you find that, oh, that direction is not going to work, I can, I can sort of re structure this or, you know, rethink it, or whatever, I can do that in the outline versus once I've written all of my darlings onto the page, and I'm loath to cut any of them, you know?

Alex Ferrari 37:33
Well, that brings us to another topic that a lot of a lot of writers get all bent out of shape about this. I think newbie writers mostly is structure, they, they feel that structure is going to hold me back, I need to be, I need to be free wielding, you know, I don't need structure, if not, you know, it's homogenizing the process, I need this, all this stuff. And I always explained it as like, well, if you're going to build a house, you need a foundation and you need a frame, you can build a house out ever you want. But at the end of the day, it still needs a concrete slab, it still needs walls, it still needs a door and a window. Now you could put those wherever the hell you want. But at the end of the day, you're gonna still need a roof. You know, it could be a cool weird roof, but it's gonna need a roof. And that's what I find structure to be. So I find it freeing to have structure because I can build my house and then I can go into decorate however I want or ever constructed however I want, as opposed to just going there's a bunch of wood over there. There's, there's some nails over there go at it.

Naomi Beaty 38:37
Right, right, throw something together. Yeah, no, I totally agree, I think of structure as as really being good storytelling, right? Because structure is the way you put the story together in order to engage the audience and keep them engaged and get them emotionally invested, and then pay it off in a satisfying way. That's really what you're doing by structuring your story, especially like, you know, the three acts, right, we talked about three act structure a lot. And you're you're giving us context, and then you're escalating the conflict that you've set up, and then you're, you know, resolving that conflict, hopefully in a satisfying way. So that's really all structure is is good storytelling.

Alex Ferrari 39:15
And would you agree that most scenes are actually all scenes should have a beginning, middle and end it should have to be x is something that starts beginning and an end and keeps everything kind of moving along?

Naomi Beaty 39:28
Yeah, I I do agree with that. Although I think that if you look at if you look at movies that that really sort of like keep you on the edge of the of your seat. As you get farther into the movie, you need less of that first act in each scene, right? Because we've already we're building on the context of the entire movie so you have less setup to establish, not always but a lot of times that happens. It's sort of like seeing sort of feel like they move faster towards the back end, you know?

Alex Ferrari 39:58
Sure, because we already know who the characters are. They're in other locations, we know the steaks, all that kind of stuff so we can move things along.

Naomi Beaty 40:04
Coming into the scene, we already know who wants what, and like what they've been trying to achieve the whole time. So there's less of that setup.

Alex Ferrari 40:10
So yeah. So I wanted to kind of just since I have you here today, and there's a lot of stuff going on in the world. There's two shows. I'm not sure if you've seen them. And I want us I hope you've seen one of the two so we can discuss it because I think it's a wonderful opportunity to talk about story. Oh, Mandalorian, did you see Mandalorian? No, no, have you? Have you? Did you happen to watch and then you might have not had a chance to yet Tiger King.

Naomi Beaty 40:42
I haven't. But I had heard so much about it. And I was actually already familiar with. Who's the who's the John guy,

Alex Ferrari 40:50
Jimmy Joe exotic.

Naomi Beaty 40:53
So I was I was already familiar with him and kind of the story of him. But I understand that that's not what the entire show is about. Right?

Alex Ferrari 41:00
No, it's it's it's honestly, I don't know if it's the quarantine talking. But it is. It is it. You know, I put the trailer on for my wife on ice like that. We're not watching that. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm gonna watch this because I have to watch this. And I started watching and she would do something in the background. And slowly but surely she would. When something happened. She's like, so what happened there? So let's go together. It is such an amazing story. And I know it's a documentary. It's a documentary series. But the storytelling in that is, it's just brilliant. It's like when you think nothing crazier could happen. They leave you with something else that happened. Oh, and now there's a drug lord. And now there's this and now there's that? And you're just like, how is this real? Like, if I would have written that you would have written that? No one would have believed it's just like, oh, this is come on. This. This is crazy.

Naomi Beaty 41:54
Did you happen to watch the series also a Netflix Docu series called? And I won't I won't swear on your show. But with cast?

Alex Ferrari 42:02
I heard about it. I didn't have watch it. I heard about I saw it. I'm not i It seems fascinating. But at the time, there's too many other things in my queue. But yes,

Naomi Beaty 42:11
I Yes. This is what this is. Exactly why I haven't seen the the tiger King. Yeah, but, but I will say it sounds similar to what you're describing. And maybe Netflix is just nailed kind of the formula for Docu series. Oh, yeah. Well, production theories and I was gonna say for cliffhangers you don't I mean, cuz that show each episode and I can't remember how many episodes there were, it was only like, I want to say maybe four or five, something like that. So it was a short series. But every episode, like you thought you knew where it was going. And then the episode at the end, you would be like, that's what's happening now. You know, and then you'd have to watch the next episode, because you're like, I have to see how, like how that story turn or that's gonna go now. It was amazing.

Alex Ferrari 42:54
The Duplass brothers did that. That Docu series. Oh, God, what was it the one about the cult leader in the in like the mountains of Utah, and it was like in the 70s. And they built like this. It's like, This guy had like, 75 Rolls Royces or something like that. Wonderful.

Naomi Beaty 43:12
Wonderful. Yeah. Yes. wild country? Yes. Country.

Alex Ferrari 43:15
Wow. Wow. Yes. Ah, did you see that?

Naomi Beaty 43:19
I did. I'm actually from Oregon. And that took place in Oregon. And so I was like, I have to watch this. And I thought that was I mean, it was an amazing series. Right. I also thought it was really interesting. Just if you're thinking about like, character and get, you know, sort of how do you get your audience on the side of your character. Nobody could have known this but coming into the, into the series because I'm from Oregon, I immediately was sort of on the side of the people who owned the land around it. And I don't think that's where I was supposed to be like, they wanted you on the side of the Rajneesh ease and being like, like, free love hippie type people who just want a place to live and all this stuff. And I was like, No, that seems wrong because those Oregonians they really need their, you know,

Alex Ferrari 44:01
and then a twist that it twists towards as the show goes on, it just twists. And again, whether it's documentary or narrative story story. And, you know, if it happened in real life, it's just how that story and those and those documentarians are, I mean amazing storytellers. They're, they're just weaving the tail. so beautifully. You just have to stop everything you're doing and watch Tiger cat. It's arguably one of the arguably one of the greater greater things that's happened in 2020. That's a low bar, the jump off. But it is it is. It's God. I just I just was watching I benched it I just like I can't. I can't believe this. This is

Naomi Beaty 44:43
think about the timing of the release of that because I mean, everyone is at home right now watching Netflix and

Alex Ferrari 44:50
then all of a sudden, you're like, What is this tiger King thing and you all know I want to have I want to have somebody on the show where we can have a deep deep dive conversation on it. The Tiger King and the story elements of it and how it was. Oh, there's like online I think was Ed Norton and Dax Shepard are fighting to play Joe exotic. Oh, no, that no, the there's already casting involved for the movie. Oh, no. I mean, every actor in Hollywood wants to play all the parts like hilarious. Even the smallest, you know, you know, gate keeper, good. Zookeeper like they want. Yeah. Because they were all they were all such a tap is the tapestry, a tapestry of a tapestry of, of characters that yeah, I'm just in awe of it. But anyway, so we we've gone off the we went off a little bit, but I feel that it was important to talk about this story, though. It's all story. And I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Naomi Beaty 45:56
I think the best advice anyone can give if you want to be a screenwriter is to write things. And shocking, shocking. I know, it's groundbreaking. I'm sure no one's ever said that before. But you know, I do think that that is one of the things that that really can separate people who are going to manage to build a career and those who aren't I've, you know, even before I started working with writers on in sort of a professional capacity, I had a lot of friends who were writers, right. And, and even seeing among them, the ones who sort of got really fixated on their one script that they thought was going to be the thing that, you know, that built their career. And the ones who wrote a script, learn something from it, wrote another script, learned that you know what I mean? And so they, they sort of grew their skills at a faster rate than the friends who had one like lottery tickets scripts that they were sure was going to be it. And so I think the best advice really, if you want to be a screenwriter is to write and, and as a, as an addendum to that to finish things because I think you learn more from finishing one script than starting 10 and not finishing. Yes. So you know, sometimes you do have to, like sort of cut it if you're if you realizing, okay, I started the script I didn't think it through, it's not really going anywhere. But don't make that your default. You know, habit, I think you you really do learn more from finishing the script and figuring out like, Okay, what could I have done differently? Why isn't this working? Like I thought it would, as I wanted it to, you know,

Alex Ferrari 47:33
Can Can you please let everybody know, the difference between a professional writer and a hobbyist? Because my, my definition of the hobbyist is the exactly what you just said, fit started 10 scripts, or has been on one for five years? And then there's and then there's a professional writer who has 2010 scripts?

Naomi Beaty 47:55
Yeah, totally. No, I think I think even if you haven't been been paid for it, yet, you're setting yourself up for good habits and more success, if you know how to finish if you know how to complete a script and learn something from it. Right. I also think the one thing that I think really separates professionals or people who become professionals is the ability to rewrite, because that is a skill set all all its own. And, you know, there are a ton of people who can write a first draft, but who don't really know it. And it's not just about taking notes, although that's part of it, but it's understanding what's not working, and then understanding how to go in and fix it. And I think that that's a whole skill set that really doesn't get enough attention, you know,

Alex Ferrari 48:44
that would be the script Doctors of the World.

Naomi Beaty 48:47
Yeah, those people who are really able to kind of like see the big picture, and then also understand where to what changes need to be made. Because, you know, I think a lot of times, writers want rewriting to effectively be like fixing some dialogue here and there. And that's not usually that's not usually the case. And some people who are very good at rewriting are able to see the big picture understand what needs you know, either what's not working or what somebody wants them to change about it right? And then knowing how to implement those changes on sort of like a global level in their in the screenplay.

Alex Ferrari 49:22
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Naomi Beaty 49:28
Oh, that's a good question. One lesson that I am still trying to learn is to speak less and listen more. But honestly, I think the lesson of like you if you want to, if you want to write you have to write it's such a simple concept and it's it's one that I think still, you know, still come back to,

Alex Ferrari 49:53
and three of your favorite films of all time.

Naomi Beaty 49:57
Oh, gosh, well, since we've been in quarantine the last couple of weeks There's been a lot of discussion of like, Best Movies movies worth watching recommendable movies you know, things like that. I will say these I'm not saying these are the best movie ever. They're movies that are special to me. Sure. So just the other night we re watched. So I Married an Axe Murderer.

Alex Ferrari 50:24
Michael, Nancy Travis and Michael Myers. Yes, 90.

Naomi Beaty 50:29
Not saying it's the best movie ever made, but it has a it has a place in my heart of that movie when I was younger. And Michael Mike Myers is just so funny, right? So I'd say I'm going to put that on the desert island movie. I also just re watched Blue Ruin, which I think is phenomenal. And I would definitely say that's a great movie. I don't care what anyone else says. worth watching. And back to the future.

Alex Ferrari 51:00
Probably. Yes. Yes. Factor future. I'm waiting for my daughter's to get old enough to watch that. They don't they won't get it just yet. But

Naomi Beaty 51:07
yeah, you know, I have I have fond memories of seeing that movie with my dad. So it's like definitely a both a good movie. And also just a you know, it's a nostalgic movie.

Alex Ferrari 51:16
And I saw I'm old enough to see I saw it in the theater when it came out. And I watched it. And that was just it was just when it came out. That was just like, what? Like, what, like, what there was a lot of that in the 80s. Like what just happened? When I saw diehard in the theater for the first time. I'm like, what, what, like, what is going on?

Naomi Beaty 51:36
Yeah, I think that I think back to the future was one of the first times I remember being like, sort of being startled by how good a movie was, you know what I mean? Being like, Whoa, that was way better than I thought it was going to be. Maybe that says a lot about the movies. I was watching as a kid. But

Alex Ferrari 51:54
I didn't feel that when I went to see Howard the Duck. At the same time. It was not the same vibe I didn't get it didn't hold didn't hold up as well. Now, where can people find you and what you do?

Naomi Beaty 52:06
Let's see best place to find me is on my website. It's right and co.com There's, you know, all sorts of screenwriting articles and various resources on there. So that's the best place to to track me down.

Alex Ferrari 52:20
Now me thank you so much for being on the show. I really truly appreciate it. It's been a pleasure talking to you. We'll have you back after you watch Tiger, I feel

Naomi Beaty 52:29
it was great.

Alex Ferrari 52:31
I want to thank Nomi for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Naomi. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 068. And guys, I've set something up special for you if you want to get access to a free three part video series taught by some Oscar winning and big blockbuster screenwriters like David Goyer, from Dark Knight fame and the blade trilogy. And Paul Haggis, the Oscar winner behind Million Dollar Baby crash and Casino Royale arguably one of the best James Bonds of all time. If you want to get access to this free video course, head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash free video series. Thanks again for listening guys. I hope you are staying safe out there in the quarantine that we are all under still. But the good news is there's no excuse not to right now your home. I know Tiger King is waiting for you. But do take this time and work on your craft and get as much stuff written as possible. So when this thing does eventually lift, you will be armed and ready for the marketplace with new product and new scripts and new things to hopefully help you on your screenwriting path. Thank you again for listening. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 067: Writing the 90 Day Screenplay with Alan Watt

Today on the show we have screenwriter and best-selling author Alan Watt. Alan Watt is the author of The 90-Day Novel, Amazon’s #1 book on writing, as well as The 90-Day Rewrite: The Process of Revision and The 90-Day Screenplay: From Concept to Polish. He runs the publishing company, The 90-Day Novel Press which has also published The 90-Day Play. Watt has written screenplays for numerous production companies and is the author of the L.A. Times bestselling novel Diamond Dogs.

He has taught everyone from award-winning authors to A-list screenwriters, USC business school students, journalists, poets, actors, professional athletes, war veterans, housewives, doctors, lawyers, maximum security prisoners, television showrunners, Emmy-winning directors, and first-time writers.

Many of his students have gone on to successful careers, writing New York Times and International bestsellers, appearing on Oprah, winning major literary awards, becoming top screenwriters and television show-runners, and most importantly, developing a craft and methodology that delivers consistent results.

We get into the weeds on how to write a screenplay in 90 days. Enjoy my talk with Alan Watt.

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Alex Ferrari 0:32
I like to welcome the show Alan watt, man, thank you so much for being on the show, bro.

Alan Watts 3:53
Thanks for having me. Yeah, man, we're,

Alex Ferrari 3:55
we're hanging hanging in there in the quarantine, aren't we?

Alan Watts 3:59
Sure. Yeah. Four weeks in? Yeah, gone forever. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 4:04
don't know when it's gonna stop. But but at least you know, for writers they have now they have no excuses. They're locked in and they have to write.

Alan Watts 4:13
You know, in theory, that's true. And yeah, I talked to my writers and they're also freaked out. You know, we got to remember, we're also artists. And we're freaked out. We got to factor that in and know that that it's challenging. I get so many writers say I've got all day to write and I'm still struggling. So I think it's important to get your writing done before you watch the news.

Alex Ferrari 4:36
Without without question, so less Tiger King and more. Final Draft.

Alan Watts 4:44
That's right, yeah. Get up, take a leak, start writing. And then check your emails, watch the news, but get the writing done first, because that's when you're fresh. That's when your imagination is firing.

Alex Ferrari 4:57
Yes, absolutely. So before we get started, how did you Get your start in the business.

Alan Watts 5:03
Well, I started as a stand up comic in, in Canada. And I did comedy for a long time. And I moved to New York. And then some managers brought me out to Los Angeles many years ago. And, and then i i So standard was going well and and I wrote a novel, and it got to auction for a ridiculous amount of money and I didn't have to go on the road anymore. So I just focused my I'd always been writing screenplays. But that's when I really focus more on on novels and screenplays and, and then I started when I wasn't I wasn't going on the road anymore. I started la writers lab about 19 years ago,

Alex Ferrari 5:48
now. Wow. So it's been it's been around for within around for a minute.

Alan Watts 5:52
I started Yeah, I started teaching I my first. My first class was, somebody asked me to teach a screenwriting summer screenwriting class at UCLA in 98. And, and I loved it. I just loved it. And I started and I was always giving notes to to all my screenwriter friends. And then I just kind of opened the doors on La writers lab in a really small way in about 19 years ago.

Alex Ferrari 6:20
Very cool. And I and you wrote a book a really good best selling book called the 90 day screenplay. So I have to ask you the question, how do you how do you write an idea? Yes.

Alan Watts 6:30
Well, yeah, let's get into that. Yeah, I've got I wrote a by wrote the 90 day novel, and I need a screenplay, the 90 day rewrite. And, and, and so yeah, let's talk about it the 90 day screenplay is, is a process of writing a, a, it basically, the first month is outlining your screenplay. So we spend a full month allowing the outline to emerge. And then we spend the second month writing the first draft. And then we spend the last five or so weeks polishing, polishing first draft. Three sections.

Alex Ferrari 7:11
So that's the basic there. So let's break it. Let's get into the first part, the outline. I know a lot of a lot of filmmaker, a lot of filmmakers and a lot of screenwriters, they tend, I've heard this, this complaint, this objection is like I don't outline I just let the thing free flow, man, I'm an artist, I, I just gotta see, when inspiration hits me, I just kind of see where the story takes me, and where the characters are talking to me and all that stuff. And it to a certain extent, I get that. But I've always been an outliner. I love to hear your point of view on on the outline the importance of it, and why you believe it to be such an integral part of this process.

Alan Watts 7:48
Okay, I understand why people say that. And it's because screenwriting is so often taught by story analysts, or really screenwriters themselves, and so it's taught so so a lot of artists rightfully hear outlining or story structure as some kind of a formula. And it's not story structure is the DNA of your protagonist transformation. And so, what I'm teaching is a process of marrying the wildness of your imagination, to the rigor of story structure, but you have to be doing both concurrently. Okay. And so, oftentimes, story structure is taught as this formula. And so understandably, an artist is going to recoil at that idea. But there's a process of outlining that allows the wildness of your imagination to, to run free, so you're not you're not outlining isn't figure it's not a it's not a right, it's not a left brain process. You're not figuring out your story, like it's a math problem. That's not outlining. I don't know what that is. But that's, that's a guaranteed way to get stuck. Einstein says you can't solve a problem to the same level of consciousness that created the problem. In other words, he's talking about let me back up, the purpose of story is to reveal a transformation. And so what, so we can't figure our way out to a transformation, which is what Einstein is saying, Can't figure your way out to the solution to a problem. Every protagonist begins with a dramatic problem. They get this problem that that they think needs to be solved, but what they're going to discover over the course of the story, is that what they're actually struggling with is not a problem. For example, Jimmy Stewart wants to leave Bedford Falls, so you can have a wonderful life. He thinks his problem is how do I get out of bed for fault? What he discovers is he doesn't have a problem. He never had to leave Bedford Falls. What he discovers it, he's got a dilemma. And his dilemma is that as long as I believe that a wonderful Life lives outside of Bedford Falls, I'll forever be in bondage to my limited idea, as Einstein says of my problem. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. Okay. And so the reason, it's, you know, I want to ask people out there, have you ever written a screenplay that you did an outline? And you felt like it did everything that you wanted it to do? I think the answer is usually no. And I think also, sometimes we hear about those screenwriters that claim not to outline and we think, Well, Charlie Kaufman says he doesn't outline Woody Allen says he doesn't outline. But the truth is, these guys have been writing for years, and they have mastered their craft. And so they, um, while they may not be writing their outline down, I've talked to a number of writers about this, who are really successful. And they go, Well, I used to outline and but now outlining is second nature, or I have the outline in my head, but I don't write it down. So they don't call it outlining. But I think it's a real misnomer to suggest, especially to novice screenwriters that not outlining is going to give you a really satisfying story where the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts, it's just not going to happen. But what's also not going to happen is if you go to some screenwriting class, where you're being taught by a story analyst who's teaching you some kind of formula, and and you're expected to adapt to their formula, that's not gonna work, either. And so what you've got to do is you got to find a process of marrying the wildness of your imagination, to the rigorous story structure. And that's what I'm teaching in the 90 days screenplay,

Alex Ferrari 11:49
is it so it's, it's the equivalent of me going, I'm going to go build a house. But I don't want a blueprint right now. I'm just going to start throwing up walls. And I could only see the four walls that I've put up right now. But I don't see it as a whole of the house that I'm trying to build. But if I would, but if I had that blueprint, the architectural blueprints, I'm like, Okay, I could put this house here. And I can decorate those walls wherever I want. I can put the window wherever I want. I can put the door wherever I want. But you still need to know where it's all going and how it's all going to work together to form the final house. That makes sense.

Alan Watts 12:20
Well, here's, here's the problem with that analogy. The problem with that analogy is it's it suggests that a screenplay is a house, but it's not a screenplay, the character, the protagonist, and the House are inextricably linked. So character is structure. And that's why people people hear that house analogy. I've heard it before. And they go, yeah, yeah. But so I don't know how to build the house. You're not supposed to know how to build the house. Einstein again says you can't solve the problem at the same level of consciousness of the creator of the room. So let me explain a little bit about what I'm teaching is that all these store all these books and story structure talking about the dramatic problem, but the truth is that your protagonist doesn't have a problem. They have a dilemma, and there's a difference. problems are solved. They're intellectual. Okay, they're intellectual. You can't solve the problem. At the same level of consciousness, the creative dilemmas are resolved through a shift in perception. What your protagonist has is a dilemma, not a problem. Jimmy Stewart and it's a wonderful life has a dilemma. The dilemma is there are two ingredients to a dilemma a powerful desire, I want to leave Bedford Falls and a false belief. A leaving Bedford Falls is what will give me a wonderful luck. Okay, two ingredients to a dilemma, a powerful desire and a false belief. When you understand when you when you connect to your protagonists dilemma, you're connecting to the source of your story. Okay, everything. What we really care about in your story is your theme. The plot is the vehicle that carries the theme. Okay, and so your theme is explored through this dilemma. I always say you know, you've got a story when what your protagonist wants is impossible to achieve based on their current approach or their current identity. Okay, Jimmy Stewart has to die to his old identity in order to be reborn. Okay, in other words, you can't have a transformation without their first being a surrender a dark night of the soul at the end of the second act. So,

Alex Ferrari 14:37
okay, okay. All right. So then, so you're talking about as you just said, Acts, there's a lot of miscommunication about what an actual story is the the three act structure, the five act structure, the seven extraction, there's so many different kinds of structures. Can you can you discuss some I mean, obviously, we all know the three act structure is like the big the one that Is but can you talk a little bit about those? Because I know that's confusing to a lot of people? Yes.

Alan Watts 15:03
Okay, well, when I hear five acts structure I'm hearing, I'm hearing like a one hour TV. And they break, they break it up into a teaser, typically in four acts or a teaser, and five acts. But those acts are those acts are, they've been designed for in order to have television commercials. So those are those aren't story acts, those are just acts that were created by studio executives so that they could sell advertising space. The three act structure is for feature films. And it's also it's for a story and and I, you know, the big thing you hear now, you you hear some of these, these, these these writers who sort of want to be progressive or, and then they talk about how this three act structure is, is sort of dead, or that the three act structure is only one kind of structure, however, and I my radar has been on this for years, they never tell you the other structures. Now I've ever heard them. There's other there's other structs there's there's three act structure is old, it's it's only for novices. I've heard so many of these, these writing gurus talk about this, but I have never heard them in a really sort of granular way about the other structures, because I'm dying to hear what they are.

Alex Ferrari 16:32
Well, so yes. Well, real quickly want to

Alan Watts 16:36
Okay, good. Well, the three act structure is is not a formula. And so when I hear people, when I hear the story, and I was talking about the three structures, not not the only other structure, they're not understanding that the three act structure can be distilled to three words, desire, surrender, transformation. That's the three act structure. Okay? Your protagonist wants something, the stakes are life and death. If I don't get blank, my life will be unimaginable. By the end of Act Two, your protagonist surrenders the meaning they made out of their goal, okay, the meaning they made out of their goal, not their goal, and they let go, and in letting go they reframe the relationship to their goal. And they accept the reality of their situation as opposed to the appearance of their situation. And that allows them in a third act to pursue what they need, as opposed to what they want. And that leads to a battle scene, which is an oftentimes an internal battle that may manifest itself externally. But it's a battle scene where they make a difficult choice between what they want and what they need. And that leads to the new equilibrium. You give me any screenplay that works, and I will show you that structure.

Alex Ferrari 17:49
What the So when you hear some of these Greek, the, you know, the old Greek plays and things like that, that force for x or 5x, or things like that, how is that different? And I mean, I've heard someone talk about Raiders of the Lost Ark having five acts as opposed to a three act.

Alan Watts 18:06
Okay, but what I'm talking about is the DNA I'm sure. So they can be broken up into four acts by Shakespeare a lot of his plays were five acts. But Romeo and Juliet, if you break it down, it's it's it's not typically it's not a three act play. But the story comes is is the most traditional three act structure. You know, Romeo, the inciting incident is Romeo su sees Juliet through the window. The opposing argument is Romeo discovers that Juliet is the enemy is his father's father, an enemy of his, of his, any of his of his father, the end of Act One, Romeo makes a decision that he can't go back on to profess his love to Juliet. And, but he's reluctant because he's afraid that her father will kill him. Okay. And then the dark night of the soul is that Romeo realizes that it's impossible to have Juliet based on his current approach. Okay. And so that leads to him accepting the reality of a situation which is that they are Doom lovers. That leads to the difficult choice where he, uh, you know, takes the care remember where the poison is? Remember the poison.

Alex Ferrari 19:27
I don't remember the name of the poison, but he took poison, he drinks the

Alan Watts 19:31
blanking on it, but he makes the difficult choice. He too, I want to I want to be with my love for eternity. And so he he kills himself.

Alex Ferrari 19:42
I mean, spoiler alert. I mean, come on.

Alan Watts 19:47
It's like it's, this is this is where people get into, they misunderstand the semantics, and they confuse they confuse the way a A script has been broken up into pieces with the DNA of the protagonist journey. So don't Yes, you can break, you can easily break up any screenplay into four parts, because Act Two is typically twice as long as act one and act three, you can call your screenplay for x, it's not going to change a word of your screenplay to call it for x, you break it up into 5x If you want. Got it,

Alex Ferrari 20:28
it's semantics. At the end of the day, it's still three points.

Alan Watts 20:33
If if, if one doesn't master a story structure, it's three act structure. If you don't master that, if you don't, then then you're really going to struggle with with writing a, you know, writing a compelling screenplay.

Alex Ferrari 20:51
So let's talk a little bit about character. Because character is something that when we see a bad when we see a bad guy, it's like, we don't know a good one, too. We see it and we don't know a bad one till we see it. It's hard to explain but, but like, you know, you watch some of these amazing characters like an Indiana Jones like, a Luke Skywalker like Darth Vader as a as a protagonist, or an antagonist. And you see these guys, but when you see some of these bad movies, you just like, oh, god, that's so blah. This guy has like, No, this or this girl has no that is like, what makes, in your opinion, a really good character, and how can we any tips on writing a more compelling character?

Alan Watts 21:33
Okay, first of all, we got to let go of this idea that character has to be likable, the character has to want something really bad. And that's going to make us care about them. If we understand the circumstance that they're in, there will be a we're gonna care about them. My first novel Diamond Dogs, the main character, the protagonist, accidentally killed somebody on the highway in the opening chapter in the second chapter. And I'm told people really care about him. It was a best seller, it's we're making it into a movie. Um, but the point is that the character isn't necessarily likable. But we understand his relationship with his father, we understand the circumstances that led him to this accident. And so hopefully, we care about him. So so what I want to say is, you've got to have a protagonist that wants something, the stakes have to be life and death. I don't mean literally life and death. I mean, I mean, if Jan Brady doesn't get a date with tad Hamilton, she will absolutely die. I have to get this or my life will be unimaginable. That's life and death. The character wants something, the stakes are high. And then at some point, the protagonist is going to let me let me walk you through, just like the really primitive, necessary stages in every protagonist journey, okay. And every three extra is that your protagonist is going to have there's going to be an inciting incident. Okay, something happens that sets the story in emotion. It's the moment where the audience collectively goes, Oh, this is what the story's about. Romeo sees Juliet through the window. Oh, this is what the story's about. And then, and then there's got to be a decision at the end of the first act. That decision needs to be coupled with reluctance. Why? Because the reluctance keeps us connected to the protagonist dilemma. Okay, dilemma is tension dilemma feels like I'm being pulled in two different directions at the same time. You can feel it, it's an experience. And so our protagonist makes it just the reluctance doesn't mean indifference. It doesn't mean I don't really want to do this. Well, the reluctance means that we understand what it will mean, if they don't do it. Okay. I've got to do this. In other words, you know, it Luke Skywalker. He gets on, you know, the the ship, but he looks back and there's his farm burning and his aunt and uncle are dying, okay. He's reluctant to leave. But he, what does he want? He wants to go and be a star fighter, right? So he's not reluctant to be a star fighter. He's reluctant to say goodbye to the status quo his whole life. Don't fuse reluctance within difference, otherwise, it's going to kill the aliveness of your screenplay. The next major really big point is the midpoint. A lot of screenwriters, I hear this word it drives me nuts because it's an intellectual word. They call it the reversal. If you try and figure out I can't figure out a reversal in the middle of in the middle of my story, but but think in terms of experiences. I teach story structure as an experiential model. A lot of teachers teach it as a conceptual model. But if you think in terms of experience, you're going to you're going to realize the character suggests plot. So your characters experience is going to lead to an event happening. So think in terms of the experience of temptation. In the middle of your screenplay, your protagonist is going to experience temptation. You know, gosh, I made some notes, and I gonna do this today. So I'm reverting back to some of the old. Uh, you know, in Rocky, everybody's seen the movie, Rocky. Rocky is offered to fight the heavyweight champion of the world. What does he that's the midpoint of the movie? Yeah, it

Alex Ferrari 25:38
is actually, right. Yeah. It's seven minutes. No, no, I'm good. No,

Alan Watts 25:45
he says, No. And Jurgen says, this is the chance of a lifetime. Don't pass it by, and then we cut to him on the screen with Apollo Creed. Then he says, yes. If he doesn't say no, there's no context for the Yes. It's a Wonderful Life. Jimmy Stewart has offered to work for Mr. Potter. Okay, if you're writing a screenplay, and you're, I always say our idea of our screenplay is never the whole story. It's not that it's incorrect. It's that it's incomplete. If you are writing your idea of a guy trying to leave Bedford Falls, it might never occur to you to have the devil Mr. Potter offer him a job. But what's happened is that he's become so successful with the savings and loan, that the devil does offer a job. So in other words, if you think in terms of your protagonist experiencing temptation, it might occur to you oh, what would what would tempt him? What if? What if the devil offered him a job. So this is this way of working is a way of moving you beyond your limited idea of your screenplay, and stretching your imagination, story structure. If you explore it as a as a, an experiential model, you're going to start to invest yourself into it, you're gonna have some skin in the game, you're not just going to be trying to figure it out from your prefrontal cortex.

Alex Ferrari 27:04
So with a protagonist, generally speaking, everything that you've said makes absolute sense that there's a transformation from the beginning to the end. But there's two characters that I that one specific kind of story that doesn't kind of fit the transformation because the main character doesn't change, which is the detective story, the detective story, or like the original James Bond stories, where James Bond is absolutely no transformation whatsoever, but everybody around him transforms and same thing for the detective story. How can you how does that work with the detective story?

Alan Watts 27:35
Okay, good. I'm glad you brought that up. So So in cautionary tales, for example, as in a cautionary tale, the transformation can be for the audience. So So in other words, the purpose of story is to reveal a transformation. The transformation doesn't necessarily have to be for the hero in a cautionary tale. It's not in a cautionary tale. They're led to this difficult choice between what they want and what they need, and they choose what they want. Okay, as Judas lays dying, he still sees the error of his ways. Okay, and so in, you know, think about, I'm remembering, I don't know why but Carlitos way, it's like, he dies at the, you know, as he's getting on the train, he's trying to get away, and he realizes it was too late. I was I was, you know, I got I got hung up with my ego. And so don't confuse transformation. With a happy ending. It's not necessarily transformation is simply is simply a shift in perception. It's seeing the situation in a new way. And so you think about Goodfellas you know, the transformation is, is when we realize that oh, look, crime doesn't pay in the theme always comes full circle. So, so it doesn't mean that it's always happy ending.

Alex Ferrari 29:00
Yeah, so like, if you look at like Sherlock Holmes, you know, like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle stories. I mean, there's they're so wonderfully written and Sherlock is obviously one of the greatest characters ever developed, or constructed. But Sherlock from the beginning of from any of his stories. He's T Sherlock. He rarely ever does change, and specifically James Bond, those early Sean Connery's and Roger Moore, they chat he was just the womanizing guy who does this. The only time that changes when Daniel Craig showed up, and that's when you gave, I felt that they gave such depth to him and then James Bond actually transformed and that's what made Cassina raw right out such an amazing Bond film. But those early there's only movies worked and they are those always move for what they were. So what would you like how would you say the transformation was in a Sherlock Holmes story or James Bond? Sorry,

Alan Watts 29:53
so and I haven't read Sherlock Holmes in years. What's his sidekicks name?

Alex Ferrari 29:59
A Holmes. Sherlock Holmes and Watson Watson Watson,

Alan Watts 30:03
Watson.

Alex Ferrari 30:06
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Alan Watts 30:16
Okay, so So it's possible that Watson is the protagonist. In other words, Watson. In other words, Watson is he's not the protagonist, let me take that back. But Watson is the lens through which the audience sees the story. And so So, so Watson can be the one who has the transformation is that he can be the one who's sort of watching his shirt homes with admiration, perhaps confusion, of judgment, and then, by the end of the story, understand something because Sherlock Holmes is sort of the embodiment of wisdom. He's not going to change, he doesn't need to change because he's already like the god figure, right? But what needs to change is that we need to change we need to understand our impatience, our judgment, our leaping to assumptions, and that's the thing that gets changed. So so so Watson, is the lens through which we become transformed.

Alex Ferrari 31:27
Excellent, that was a great, great explanation of that. I've never actually I've posed that I've posed that question to many of my guests and you're the first one to kind of really lay it out in a very distinct way I'd never thought about Watson because he does Watson does change Watson is always the one that he's the emotional one he's the one that starts one way and ends another one but Sherlock never he's he's essentially the God he you know, he's Zeus. He is Superman. He does not change

Alan Watts 31:53
change in the you know, like the the archetype of the of God the you know, the mystery of the the the car the comic the low they

Alex Ferrari 32:07
don't change. Oh, yeah, no, they I was thinking Loki mischief but no, no, I know. You said the comic. Yeah.

Alan Watts 32:14
You know, the Trickster one for Forrest Gump. Oh, God, he did. Forrest Gump doesn't change. He's already he's already got the Wisdom. You know what change we are transformed as a result of understanding is his total acceptance of the world His compassion, his his love his open heart. We that's what we're aspiring to become. He's already there from the beginning.

Alex Ferrari 32:46
Yeah, Rain Man, it would be rain man would be the same way. Dustin Hoffman? Absolutely doesn't change but Tom Cruise does. And we as the audience look at it through Tom Cruise's eyes.

Alan Watts 32:56
Right. And Tom Cruise is the protagonist in that story. He's the one that that typically the protagonist is one that has the biggest change. Um, but that's why that's why I'm I'm wondering and I haven't read Sherlock Holmes since I was like 14 years old. Seeing the Robert Downey movies. Um, but the the a lot of a lot of times, there's the story where the main character isn't necessarily the protagonist, you know, think about Great Gatsby, where the story is told through the lens of Nick Caraway. Well, Nick, careful, you know, Gatsby, you know, dies in the end, but Gatsby doesn't really he doesn't he, it's a tragic story. But we're, we are changed through through the narrator's eyes, you know, we're, we're seeing the story through next eyes. And so sometimes there's, there's, there's some movies where it appears that the, the, the where we, it, you know, like ordinary people, the main character, could it could be argued that the main character is the Timothy Hutton character. But the protagonist is probably the Donald Sutherland character. He's the one that had whose eyes become opened by the end of the story. He's the one who says to his wife, I don't know we've been playing it in this marriage for 20 years. And then she leaves. Donald Sutherland is you can hang the structure on Donald Sutherlands Ark, desire to I want to bring my family together. And and he can't the more he tries to bring them together, the more Timothy and Mary Tyler Moore, become polarized leads to a dark night of the soul where he's sitting in the garage in his car. And he says to his wife, he starts to question his wife what the hell happened? The day we buried our son, All you cared about was the shirt I was wearing this shoes. And what's the matter, she freaks out on him and the lights start to go on. And he starts to realize that, that what he's wanted is to have a happy family. But he's failed to consider that he's a member of the family. And so that's when he starts to realize that until I consider myself I'm never going to have a happy family. I'm just going to be trying to control all the external forces.

Alex Ferrari 35:25
So in Shawshank which I consider one of the one of my favorite films of all time. Love it. You know, a lot of people think Andy do frames the main character, I argue that red is the main character. That's because Andy does does change, but he is who he is. i This is my own personal and I've talked about Shawshank at nauseum on the show, because it's one of my favorite scripts of all time. But yeah, and he does change because he's definitely different than when he walks in than he is when he walks out. But I don't know why I feel that his essence stays the same throughout the piece, but read read is the one that has this, I feel even more dramatic change. From his point of view from he was already there. He was he was a veteran when he when Andy walked in, and where he walks out at the end. I don't know, I'd love to hear your opinion on that.

Alan Watts 36:20
Well, you know, here's the thing is I don't, I don't, um, it's it takes, it takes me a while to sort of thoughtfully break down a script and analyze it. So I don't like to give sort of quick off the cuff. And I haven't done that with Shashank. And, and the way I work is it's, it's a, there's craft, but it's also it's instinctual. And so in other words, that what I'd rather address with this question, rather than sort of, do I think Andy or read is the protagonist? Is, is I love that you're bringing up this question? Because what we need to talk about with screenwriting, is the holistic approach to screenwriting. That, that, um, that, that I love, when we look at a script by Guy and go, You know what, it's possible that red is, so let's, let's, let's, let's break down this script. And let's see if we can hang it on, on, on red arc, what is the inciting incident? You know, why is this day like any? And, you know, I would I would submit that you might be right about that. The day that Andy comes into the prison, you know, you do we do have red narrating it and, and and that is the day unlike any other Okay, inciting incident. That's right around page 10 of that script, I think, why is this, like any other is the day that Andy comes into our lives, and forces us to start to find the beauty within and he's the one that plays the opera music, but read is the one who is allowing himself to be transformed by this external force. You've got you've got a great antagonist in that that old man on the ward and is so no, no, the old man who the little little guy who ends up getting out? Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 38:24
Yeah, forgot it. Yeah, with a bird with a bird with a crow. I forgot his name.

Alan Watts 38:28
In other words, in other words, here's here's, I think, I think, personally, a more valuable conversation for what your free your question is, is I want to talk about how all of the characters in your screenplay, want the same thing at nature. Okay, they all want the same thing at nature. In other words, they all want freedom, right? And what does anyone they don't want to be free. But notice how all the characters constellated around this dilemma. Okay, another dilemma is a powerful desire, I want to be free freedom, and a false belief. And everybody's false belief is different. And that's what makes that so think about all the characters in Shawshank as archetypes. Okay, primal forces of this dramatic question. How can I be free? What we do get a guy who leaves the prison and then hangs himself? Because he's got a misperception of freedom. His idea of freedom is the familiar. I want I want things the way they are, he can't accept change. Okay, Andy is a guy who accepts change. This is what makes him so powerful is that he spends 20 years chipping away at a hole in his cell and putting a poster over it. Okay, and so he he is that's why the ending is so moving. Because it's the you know, the the filmmaker flips it, and we begin to understand what the movie has been about the whole time. Okay, that freedom comes from within, but we thought that freedom meant Escape the beginning of the story. So the story is isn't about will plot is will Andy escape or will read get out? Or Will anybody get out? But theme is about how do we reframe our relationship to freedom. Freedom of the beginning means escape. By the end of the story. Freedom means I must find it within Morgan Freeman says, You know what? I know you're never letting me out. Fine, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna kiss your ass anymore. He finds freedom within. Hmm,

Alex Ferrari 40:31
yeah. And we could talk about Shawshank for another three hours. So let me ask you this. So the, how would you tackle because then the third part of your of your process? How do you tackle the dreaded rewrite? Because the rewrite is something that really does. It's where a lot of a lot of writers myself included get stuck. Because then you start nitpicking you start losing scope, you start getting into the weeds, all this kind of stuff. And what's your process on the rewrite? How do you approach it?

Alan Watts 41:07
Okay, well, I I'm going to answer that one second of the one, I want to back up for a second because I can't do the rewrite, unless I've done the first draft. Remember, I talked about earlier marrying the wildness of our imagination to the rigor of story structure. In other words, what I, you know, I want, I want my first draft to Oh, and I can't do that until I've, I've done an outline where I've because because the way I outline, the way I teach outline is very different than everybody else. Okay, the outline, I would say that everything that you imagined belongs in your story, if you can distill it to its nature, okay, so I don't want I, I, I really encourage, um, we've got to understand that human beings are contradictory creatures, we want adventure. But we also want security. We want love and connection, but we also want our individuality. And so what happens sometimes I see this all the time, particularly with screenwriters is that in wanting to be a good screenwriter, we start to employ logic and logic kills the aliveness of your story. There's nothing logical about Jimmy Stewart considering taking a job with Mr. Potter. Okay, you know, there's, there's, there's nothing logical about a guy who's wanting to be free his whole life. He gets out in the first day, he checks into a motel and hangs himself. Nothing logical about that. But there's something so true about it. And there's something primal about it. And so what the so in the first month of the 90 day screenplay, I keep bringing writers back to the primal, what is your protagonists want? What are the characters want? What do they all want? That is the same, that's primal. Okay, it's not intellectual. But it's, I want to be free. I want connection I want meaning I want purpose. I want justice, I want revenge. It's primal, the set, okay. And so once you get that, that outline where you feel like there is a primal drive, through your, for your protagonist through the story, you write your first draft, and you write it really, really messy. And you surprise yourself with all the crazy places these characters seem to go. That make no sense. Now you've got a rod document to work with in the rewrite. In the rewrite, the first thing we do, is we do a new outline. Okay, and so the new outline, you ask yourself two questions. First question is, Have I said everything I set out to say, and this is where you do an inventory, you go, alright. There's actually scenes that feel like they're missing or there's a there's stuff that I felt like I pulled back, I want to I want to just do now I just want to vomit this onto onto onto a random page. What is all the stuff that I that? I said, I'd say sometimes you've said it all. And the second question is, Have I said it in the most effective way? That question leads you to do a new outline, but the new outline is not a regurgitation of your first draft. And that's where a lot of people think, Oh, I've got it, I got to just tighten up the first draft. No, you need to be willing to pretend that the first draft doesn't exist. And you do a new outline, because now you, once you've written the first draft, you understand your characters in a way you could never have understood them otherwise, because you've gotten them to the end of your screenplay. So you got to get the first draft down fast. Don't rewrite half a screenplay you got once you get to the end, you're going to understand them. And then you're going to go back and do a new outline pretending you didn't write a first draft. And you're gonna start to ask yourself, now that I know more about this story than I ever did before. Let me pretend I didn't write it. And let me start to explore the most effective way to Tell the story. Let me let me, let me look at you know, when I, when I wrote the first draft, I thought I had two or three inciting incidents, let me start to explore what might be the inciting incident. Oh, I'm starting to see that it's When Morgan Freeman sees Andy do frame come in to the prison for the first time. Wow, I thought that ending was my protagonist, it might actually be read, I had no idea but because I'm holding it loosely and pretending I didn't write the screenplay, I'm actually open to that to considering that. And now my story story starts to take on a new shape. Because I'm not trying to make it conform to my idea of my first draft.

Alex Ferrari 45:39
That's, that's brilliant. I love that approach. I really do love that approach. On the rewrite, it's very, very cool. I mean, I thought look, I've talked to, I've talked to a lot of people about the craft. So I always love bringing new new guests on, because with different approaches, because you never know, when you're going to get the nugget that is going to gonna hit you personally, the right way you might be hearing from this guru, or that screenwriter or this process or that, that, you know, structure or whatever. And there's always that one thing. So the that's probably one of the better ways to rewrite I've ever heard on the show period. So it's very, very cool. Now, how do you deal with writer's block? That's a question I ask all the time. Because writer's block is this rough

Alan Watts 46:25
writer's block, okay, let me get to that I just want to address you just use the word guru. And some of my students want to call me their guru. And it is a request. But I want to say something, I want to say something to the screenwriters out there, because you got a lot of screenwriters watching this is that I see this all the time. And, and it costs writers years of really great dedicated work is the you are your own guru. And that, that I see writers all the time, they write a really great messy first draft. And then they give it to a friend, or a guru or whoever. And, and, and they get feedback on it. And the problem is that the feedback give you like, the primitive example would be, I really liked seeing three and four, but I don't like seeing two and nine. And so I I'm being you know, sort of facetious, but they get rid of seeing two and nine. And, and and you start to it's really subtle, but screenwriters writers tend to we want to write something that's really wonderful. And that works. And what happens is we start to abdicate authority over the thing that excited us at the beginning. You can do that at your peril. That thing that excites you that you might not yet be able to articulate is the thing that you've got to hold on to. And so you've got to be able to disseminate the notes that are valuable to the notes that are I especially with careers, other screenwriters always want to tell you how they would write your screenplay. That's fucking useless. Because it's not their screenplay. What if you don't have a stream? If you don't have somebody giving you notes? That is endlessly curious about what you're trying to express? They there they can be their help can be really counterproductive,

Alex Ferrari 48:26
damaging Yeah, without question damage. So how do you how do you deal with writer's block?

Alan Watts 48:36
I think writer's block is an absence of information. And so the way the This is why the first month of the 90 day screenplay is, I always tell writers that that we're not outlining for the first week, by the way, all we do is we imagine the world of the story. Okay, now, this is what three year olds, I got a seven year old. So you could you go to eight year old. This is what they do all day long. They just you tell me a story. They don't get writer's block. They just tell you a story. It might not make any sense to us. But there is there's a there's sort of like a super logic to it. You know, when they tell you a story that there's like, my son does it all day long. He tells me stories. And and and so what we need to do is, is writer's block is where we come to a place when we think we're supposed to know something, and then we start beating ourselves up for not knowing what we shouldn't be. We're not yet supposed to know. And so there's a process of going from the general to the specific, the most general is what's the thing that excites me. Oh, this is this is a story about a boy who meets a girl. Okay, I wonder how old they are. And I start to ask myself question, how old are they? Where do they live? What do they do for a living? Why? Are they attracted to each other? Um, what are their relationships with their family members? What's the what's the obstacle standing in the way of their love? And, and and that that's going to lead to every every question begets 50 more questions. That's what I call imagining the world of the story. I also give my students six writing exercises every day. These writing exercises are designed to connect to the primal forces in your characters. When you start to do that, by the end of 28 days, you've you know so much about these characters, and, and you are experiencing them in relationship to each other. But you're not trying to plant or graft a, a, an a plot on top of these people. Character and plot are inextricably linked. A plot it's only a character lives inside of a plot. You know, what makes screenplay so powerful is that nobody other than Andy do frame could have done what Andy did. His his his actions are in extract the plot that happens is inextricably linked to the character to who the character is.

Alex Ferrari 51:16
Right? Yeah, you can't make it. Yeah, of course, you can't throw Indiana Jones in a James Bond movie. You know, there you go. Which would which by the way, I would watch that movie, it'd be very interesting to watch. And I would like to throw in the I'd love to throw James Bond in an Indiana Jones movie. That would be that would be a very interesting movie. But generally speaking, in the is the catalyst for the adventures he goes on. Because you can't you know, it's time it's plays. It's who that character is. You can't you can't write. You can't write a Shawshank with Indiana Jones. Like, again, an interesting idea. But that's not who the core of that of that character is. Make sense.

Alan Watts 51:54
Exactly, exactly. And I think that on on some level, there, there is an I really think that it's a product of the way screenwriting is taught. It's just, it's so often taught by academics. And it's, you can't, just because you can deconstruct a masterpiece, doesn't mean you know, for your student, doesn't mean now the student ought to be able to write a masterpiece because they've seen that deconstruction, deconstruction is valuable. But I think what's more valuable, is understanding process. Because deconstructing somebody is going, here's the result. Here's the thing that was created, but it doesn't explore the process that created it.

Alex Ferrari 52:43
Fair enough. Now, I'm going to ask you a few quick questions I asked. All of my guests are. What are three screenplays that every screenwriter should

Alan Watts 52:51
read? Oh, man, that's Boy, that's a that's a great question three that everybody should read. Yeah. Well, a

Alex Ferrari 53:03
political change tomorrow. But but for for Right, yeah.

Alan Watts 53:06
Well, I want to just be a little bit. Here's the thing too, is, is that what you want to do is you want to if you write in a particular genre, you want to become a master of your genre. And so I just want to say that, that I don't want to I don't want to, again, I don't want to be like the guru. You should read these three screenplays. But what I would say is that if you write if you write romantic comedies, you might want to study When Harry Met Sally, if you write a you know, dramas, you might want to, you know, study, ordinary people or the Godfather, or Cuckoo's Nest, um, you know, so it's sort of like kind of the question you're asking me is, sir, right, you know, all right. I'm just gonna tell you that this three screenplays that I would recommend you read our Paddy Chayefsky keys network. Um, and then I would say that that was original screenplay, I would say, it's the same year within a year or two is cuckoos. Now, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, because that's a brilliant adaptation of a novel. And, and if you read that novel, and you read that screenplay, you'll you'll you'll see. You'll you'll see that these are two completely different animals. And it's a it's a great way of understanding how a screenwriter needs to think in order to tell a story visually, and, and then Tootsie I would say Tootsie because I think Tootsie is a masterpiece. It's the it's got it's got like five it's got five subplots that are so brilliantly interwoven. that, you know, when I read that screenplay, I, my jaw drops that that that I think it was Alvin Sargent that wrote that, and it's such a masterpiece. So I guess those would be my let him remember what I said.

Alex Ferrari 55:16
Now what? What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Alan Watts 55:22
Well, I would say that there's two businesses. There's Hollywood and then there's independent film. And so which is we talking about?

Alex Ferrari 55:28
Let's do independent film because Hollywood. It's interesting.

Alan Watts 55:33
Okay, yeah. Because because Hollywood is a completely different thing. And the thing is that if you break into indie film, and you really make your masterpiece, which is going to be very different than a studio picture, the irony is that the studio is going to want to hire you. You look at the great, like Ryan Johnson and Jeff, what's his name? Now that made mud and

Alex Ferrari 55:58
oh, yeah, that Yeah, well, yeah. What's his name to Kugler rank roller?

Alan Watts 56:05
Cool, brilliant, so many brilliant filmmakers who really pursued their vision. And, and then, of course, the studio, I mean, Spielberg's perfect example, for the studios come calling so so I love it. Let's talk about how do you break into indie film? Um, read the Duplass brothers book? Yeah, it's like, bro,

Alex Ferrari 56:31
it's great book.

Alan Watts 56:33
Oh, my God, it is so inspiring. Those guys are so brilliant. And and I can't give any better advice than what the Duplass brothers gave, which was they made it they basically make a movie on your I'm totally paraphrasing, but basically make a movie on your iPhone. Yeah, for three days, make a short film on your iPhone, and then make another one and it's going to suck. But you're going to start to find I think they call it the huge you Yeah, it's you're going to start to find your voice. You're in your passion. And and and then make make another one. And then and then make a feature for 1000 or $3,000. And, and keep it Yeah, I look at Joe Swanberg Mm hmm. The guy's brother keeps turning them out prolific and every, it just starts to improve. And so I guess that would be that would be my thing is don't wait for anybody. I just I just shot a I just I just directed a music video right before this. This thing and we did it for Brexit we, the artists, brilliant singer Abbey, Abbey Lyons. She did a she did a Kickstarter campaign raise the money and we went and shot it. And I'm thrilled with the way it turned out. But we didn't, you know, we didn't wait for a bunch of money to show up. So we could make a, you know, really perfect, but it looks it looks great. We had a great crew. But it didn't cost a lot of money.

Alex Ferrari 57:59
Good. Good. Now, can you tell us where people can find you and your work and tell us about the later the LA writers lab.

Alan Watts 58:08
So you can go to LA writers lab.com. And that's that's my website. And I'm teaching the 90 day screenplay June 10. And it's a donation based workshop. And I make a donation based so that everybody can if there's a minimum donation of 250 for a three month workshop, suggested donation is I think it says 650, something like that. But I do that because I want I want to make great instruction affordable for anybody who wants it. And yeah, that's it. I teach a bunch of workshops that teach you the 90 day novel, I teach rewrite workshops, the rewrite workshops are all completely full with a waiting list. But if you're interested, you can always get on the waiting list. And and I teach benefit workshops every month that are a minimum of $5 to join I donate the money to different charities each month. But I their craft workshops. So I'll teach a I've got one coming up. end of May. It's on my website and it's called unlock the story within. And basically it's everything we've been talking about. It's it's it's connecting to the story that lives within you, so that you're able to it's a great workshop to take before the 90 day screenplay. So that you begin to understand the DNA of the story that wants to be told. You know, rather than going oh, this is a story about Andy to frame I got I gotta make it my protagonist and they start to read these books and figure out some conceptual way to get them to a transformation, only to discover that the transformation belongs to read. You know, I just love that you gave that example.

Alex Ferrari 59:49
Alan, thank you so much for being on the show man. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and sharing your method and your ways and your use you with With with our audience massive thanks again for being and please stay safe out there. It's, it's rough.

Alan Watts 1:00:07
Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:09
I want to thank Alan for being on the show and dropping some major major knowledge bombs on the bulletproof screenwriting tribe today. Thank you. So, so much, Alan. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to get his book and anything else, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 067. And guys, since you are at home quarantine locked up, like I said earlier, this is a great time to educate yourself on the craft and I have laid out an amazing collection of books, audio books on the screenwriting craft, and you could just head over to bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash bookstore, and there you can listen or read to your heart's content. Thank you again for listening guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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Screenwriting Side Hustles to Survive the Pandemic

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Note: This is an Indie Film Hustle Podcast episode I wanted to share with you. Be safe out there.

Too many screenwriter’s thinking is based on two months ago. They believe that the world will go back to exactly how it was before on this pandemic blows over. That might be true and I truly hope it does but hope alone will not pay the rent. Our industry is going through an unprecedented shift. If I may quote the Ghostbusters,

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, “biblical”?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes…
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.

We as screenwriters need to start thinking about how we can pivot your business, writing skills, and knowledge into the new reality that we are living in and very well might be in for some time to come.

Things that already are pivoting in the film industry:

  • No theatrical screenings, release on TVOD Premium
  • SXSW teamed with Amazon for a Virtual Film Festival (this could do more harm than good)
  • Drive-ins are making a comeback
  • Can’t screen your film in theaters, set up a virtual screening
  • AMC Theater’s stock has been downgraded and isn’t expected to recover

You have to think about what your customer needs are right now and address them. The companies that are sitting on the sidelines fearful of making any moves will be left behind. You as filmmakers need to change your mindsets. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Entire new industries will rise from this turmoil and if you are smart you will be ready to be a part of the new world.

In this episode, I breakdown some side hustles that will help filmmakers and screenwriters not only survive the pandemic but thrive in the new world we will be walking into.

Screenwriter Side Hustles

  • Write commercially: handbooks, corporate brochures and the like
  • Researchers
  • Blog Writing
  • Write for a website
  • Advertising copywriting
  • Editing copy
  • Write grant applications
  • Offer Gigs on Fiverr
  • Create an Upwork Profile to sell your writing services
  • Create a comic book (partner with an artist) – Could turn this into a short or feature once the air clears

Online Moneymaking Side Hustles

  • Swaybacks.com (Get paid to watch videos)
  • Become a virtual assistant
  • Virtual Tutor (VIP Kid – $14-$22 per hour) Chegg.com
  • Transcribe Audio or video (Rev, Scribe, TigerFish)
  • Review Software (SoftwareJungle)

I go into more detail in the episode. Think outside the box because the box you knew is not coming back. It will be a new box. Don’t be Blockbuster Video and fight to keep what you know while you reject the reality of what is.

Stay safe out there.

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BPS 066: How to Avoid Cliché Genre Story Plots with Chris Vander Kaay

Have you ever thought to yourself as you were watching a movie

“I’ve seen this somewhere before.”

Well, today’s guest Chris Vander Kaay, breaks down the formulaic and predictable glory that is Hollywood filmmaking and how to avoid it.

His new book Spoiler Alert!: The Badass Book of Movie Plots: Why We All Love Hollywood Cliches takes 38 mainstream movie genres, from ‘Teen Sex Comedy’ and ‘Buddy Action Comedy’ to ‘Film Noir Detective Thriller’ and ‘Alien Invasion Thriller’, and through detailed illustrations reveals what makes them so hilariously recognizable: the key lines of dialogue, the essential visuals, the crucial characters and the indispensable cast, scenes, and props.

So grab some popcorn and buckle up for a laugh-out-loud ride through the wonderful world of cliché!

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Alex Ferrari 6:05
I'd like to welcome Michelle Chris Vander came in How are you sir?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:07
Not too bad. Thanks so much for having me on the show. Alex.

Alex Ferrari 6:09
Thank you for thank you for being on the show. Man. You have a really cool idea for a book and and it's really beautifully laid out. Can you tell the audience what the name of your book is?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:20
Yeah, it's called spoiler alert, colon, the badass book of movie plots. And if I had to sort of encapsulate it, I guess I would say that it's sort of an infographic style template that walks you through the tropes and the cliches and the the framework of a lot of well known sort of popular Hollywood genres.

Alex Ferrari 6:39
Now, in the book, you talk about the good bad film, can you can you give me your definition of a good bad film?

Chris Vander Kaay 6:48
Yeah, the difference I guess the difference between a bad film and a good bad film is that both of them might not be great movies. But the ones that are good, bad films are still enjoyable, even if they're not particularly excellent that we wouldn't necessarily necessarily reward them with awards or anything like that. But they're still fun to watch. We kind of call them comfort food movies, you know, you kind of go in knowing what you're going to expect. And as long as they don't just horribly insult you, or if they do insult you, it's it's fun, and they're aware of it, then there can be a fun to it. We Kathleen and myself and Steven Kathleen Fernandez and Steven Espinosa, my co writers, we're big fans of horror films and an awful lot of horror films, or what you would consider comfort food movies. They're not going to win any awards. But they're, they're fun. And even if they are sometimes riddled with cliches, there, there's still a blast to have. And so the reason we wrote this book is it's kind of lovingly pointing those out and having fun with them. But at the same time, hopefully also being instructive. In a sort of a, I don't wanna say like, in a negative, instructive way, but in a way that we're saying, watch out for these traps, it's easy to fall into these, you know, take an extra, you know, take an extra pass at your story and see if there's a way for you to avoid some of the pitfalls that a lot of these movies have fallen into.

Alex Ferrari 8:02
So as far as good bad movies are concerned, I mean, my favorite of all time is the room. Because it is I mean, it is as perfect of a bad film as you can get. And I always I always tell people like a good bad film is it's if you try to make a bad film, like, like a cult favorite, like a being and I've seen those movies that they try to do something like they know, they have the intention of making a bad movie, kind of like Sharknado, which kind of which kind of took its own that just, I mean, you can't really be tornadoes and sharks. I mean, I mean, it's such a bad concept that it was, they knew exactly were self aware. The best good bad movies are the ones that are not self aware that authentically feel like they were creating cinema. And the room is the pure ation of that.

Chris Vander Kaay 8:51
For sure. I mean, one of the things we always talk about when we talk about these kinds of movies is that there needs to be some level of sincerity into the badness in order for us to be able to enjoy it. Because when you are cynically making a bad movie, in some ways, especially to you and to me and to other filmmakers. It feels insulting because it's like there are a lot of people out there trying to make good movies. So when you're taking up money and time and resources and intentionally making something that you think is Olafur, throw away. It, it feels kind of hostile to people who are working so hard to try and make it in this industry. But when you get a sincere filmmaker who was trying and just it's there's something about the way that they made the things there's there's a humorous ineptness sometimes that but but it's never cynical, they were really trying and they really love movies too. And there's something endearing about that. This was

Alex Ferrari 9:38
like one of my favorite movies of all time. It filmmaking movies of all time is Ed Wood. Because you watch Ed Wood, which is not a it's not a bad movie. It's a movie about Edward who was considered one of the worst directors of all time. But the sincerity, the love, the cluelessness that he had in the filmmaking, the way he made his films is what matters Plan Nine from Outer Space. So pleasurable to watch, because you watch that you're like this, like the guy took two Styrofoam plates, spray painted them, and put them on a string and expected us to believe that that was a spaceship. Like, but he wholeheartedly did like it was amazing.

Chris Vander Kaay 10:18
Yeah, well, and it's funny because one of the things he said in the in the movie that I think is really funny is he said, if if you're noticing little things like that, then you you missed the point, right? You missed the point of the story that I'm telling. And that seems funny. But then at the same time, I was literally just watching a documentary yesterday or the day before, where George Miller's cinematographer on Fury Road, was talking about how they shot on very different days, weather wise, and the cinematographer kept saying, We can't shoot this to match with what we just did. It looks completely different. And George Miller kept saying, if people are noticing the sky, I've already failed as a filmmaker. So when you look at like Ed Wood doing plan nine, and then you're in real good Fury Road, it's like it's not all that different and ethos that they're talking about. It's not

Alex Ferrari 11:01
that different, but yet it's miles apart. Like IQ shoot is everything. Yeah, my last, my last film that I directed, there were scenes where there was, there was no, there's no snow on the ground. And then there was snow on the ground. And not one person has ever called me on it, because you kind of just roll with it because the story moves along. But it's also not an element that's strict, like the sky, and the snow are nothings in your face their background elements where a spaceship is where the camera is looking.

Chris Vander Kaay 11:36
Right? Yeah, or a an orthodontist that's a foot and a half taller than your lead actor who died. And so you have him walk around with a cape in front of his face the rest of the film.

Alex Ferrari 11:46
It's just anyone listening, you have to watch Edward Snowden, the room and the documentary, The best worst movie ever made about troll two, which personally I can't watch troll to because I feel troll to suck. I think I died a little bit after I watched that movie. But the documentary about the making of the movie, and the fandom after is is brilliant. But I'm sorry, we went off on a tangent there because I don't get to talk about good bad movies very often. But so you you really break down, you know, from what I saw, you really break down a good amount of plots. But there's always so is there a number of plots that you feel that's like this is a good core plot, and then you could obviously, you know, mix them in left and right all over the place?

Chris Vander Kaay 12:30
Well, when we originally did, when we originally pitched the book, it was actually going to be 50 genres that we were going to cover. And we brainstormed out God, almost 100 I think total. And what we realized was that there were certain ones that overlapped on each other a tiny bit. And so we would start to eliminate the ones that were going to be a little too close to each other. And once we started doing that, you know, there's there's certain horror sub genres that will we'll touch on each other a little bit. And so we were like, well, we don't know which one is going to be the most fun of the two of these to do what has the most the cliches that are easier to exaggerate or to get jokes out of, because we want the book to be entertaining at the same time that it's, you know, helping someone to learn about the structure of a story. But and so we ultimately settled on 38 Out of the 50 that we constructed. And for, you know, page count and cost count issues, were the other reasons we decided on that. But the 38 that we came up with, were the ones that we thought for volume one of a book like this, and hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll have a second volume, depending on how well it sells. But for the first volume, the goal was pick the big ones. These are the ones that hopefully everyone will recognize at least a few tropes from every one of these movies, because they've seen at least a handful of these movies. And so that was sort of our guiding light for the first book was, even if you haven't seen a bunch of heist movies, it's well enough known culturally that you'll recognize some of these cliches. Yeah, and

Alex Ferrari 13:51
I find that a lot of first time screenwriters and myself included when I was starting to write, I would fall into the as Robert McKee says the dreaded the dreaded cliche, the dreaded dialogue, cliche or story plot cliches, and you are pointing out every one of these cliches in these genres. So it's a very valuable book to have on the shelf just to kind of skim through maybe you maybe you're writing the cliche, you don't even think you're writing the cliche, and all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, is this a cliche you like, you might not even be aware of it, because it's something that you might like, no one's ever done this before. I'm like, No, everyone in this genre has done this before. Which is which is really interesting. And I think it is one of the really, I mean, I've read a lot of scripts over my in my years. And the biggest problem is cliched dialogue, cliche story plots, cliche characters, especially in every single one of these genres. So like, when Lethal Weapon came out. Every everybody was about the buddy cop movie. You know, it was like, it was like, I think 48 hours came out first. I think if I'm not mistaken. 48 hours came out before Lethal Weapon it was like 85 it and that was kind of I don't know if that was the birth of the buddy cop movie, but it was that kind of comedic. Well, I'd never seen anything like

Chris Vander Kaay 15:13
that before. Yeah, I mean so far as I know Walter Hill is generally credited with sort of creating the buddy cop not that there haven't been movies with two characters before. But that specific dynamic of the of the either the the straight laced cop and the wild card or the the cop and the criminal partnering up, that is pretty much Oh, to Walter Hill, and in large part, not that it's never been done before, but he really codified it, so that it was clear what the elements of that sub genre were going to be moving forward.

Alex Ferrari 15:41
Yeah. And then Shane Black took it to a whole other place with lethal weapon and then, and it just kept going. And then red heat. I remember right, he came out a little while after that, with Arnold and James Belushi and, and then the buddy cop movie was like a trope of the 80s Like, it's, you still see it nowadays, but not as much as you did in the 80s and early 90s.

Chris Vander Kaay 16:00
Yeah, it's kind of moved into TV. Now, TV is kind of the place where you have the it's almost sort of like leaned into that the first iteration was the the straight laced one of the wildcard. And now they're sort of The X Files dynamic, which is the believer skeptic dynamic, right? And that's sort of become the new trope for the two person team of investigators.

Alex Ferrari 16:19
Right so yeah, in the the CSI style worlds or or the SVU style worlds right out there, they have those kinds of dynamics. I still like the buddy cop movie I mean, it's a good buddy cop movies never can know for sure

Chris Vander Kaay 16:33
was a nice guys, another one from Shane Black, you know, 30 years removed from it's a, you know, probably it's the era it would have done great in, but you know, just a few years ago, again, really, really fun. It's so it's such a simple construction, but if well executed can be so fun and super entertaining,

Alex Ferrari 16:51
and it didn't do as well as it should have. I mean, it's just a different time. This this time is not for that kind of film as much anymore, unfortunately, but I think you're right TV is the place for genres like that. And I think writers in general, understanding these tropes. That's why I think your book is so valuable, is because you like you just don't analyze you generally not you, but like, writers don't go into a genre and start analyzing the bad stuff, the tropes, the the cliches, you don't do that. But you have this like little guy that can kind of go in there. By the way, guys, I make no money by promoting this. I just think it's a cool idea. Because I'm like, Oh, this is this is kind of spying the way you did it with the infographic kind of ways even even so much cooler, because you're just like I looked at, I was looking at I was like, that's that's just kind of cool. The way you laid it all out.

Chris Vander Kaay 17:40
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that know what one of our goals was, there are filmmakers who do what you're talking about, which is that they work in film and television. Ryan Johnson is the first one I think of but then J Michael Straczynski, and, and I can't think of his name who created Buffy the Vampire Slayer,

Alex Ferrari 17:56
just just me and Justin. Yeah,

Chris Vander Kaay 17:57
they both studied very strongly the genres that they worked in specifically, so they could figure out how do I create something that seems like it's heading in the direction I would expect, so that when I do something completely different, it totally catches you off guard. So in a way, they were very smart, because instead of just trying to do something different, they knew what was already expected and sort of headed in that direction so that when they finally do take that surprise left hand turn, it's that much more powerful. Because you'd already been roped into thinking you were going down a specific path. Brian Johnson doesn't knives out.

Alex Ferrari 18:29
Right, exactly. And the which was so great. I love knives out. But let's analyze Buffy for a second which you know, I love I saw Buffy in the theater. I'm a little older. So I remember seeing Buffy when it came out with Luke Perry and Christie Christie, Christie Swanson. And then when it really took off when he had control complete creative control with the show, but he I saw many interviews with him about that genre, which is like oh, the Vampire Slayer is usually then Hellsing it's usually some big muscular dude fighting Dracula or fighting you know these big things. And he's like, what if it's the victim that usually they're say being saved from how about the victim is the Slayer, which is an is a and they made it somewhere ridiculous calling her Buffy the Vampire Slayer which, in general is just a weird, wonderful name. And then it just created this whole this whole world and he did keep turned it on its head. And I think good. Good creative writers can turn a whole genre on its head. I mean, Tarantino's made a career out of that. And Josh as well,

Chris Vander Kaay 19:35
well, and Josh Sweden and Drew Goddard teamed up to do it again, with the cabin in the woods. That is a fantastic example of a way that you take not just invert the tropes, but actually use the tropes as the central premise of the film in sort of a meta way, like really pointing out that they're there to the degree that actually in the movie, a lot of those characters don't fall into the tropes, but they're actually being forced into them by external circumstances. So that's a really clever way of pointing out the problem with these tropes and these cliches these things we come to expect. So two,

Alex Ferrari 20:06
so two, two examples I can think of right in the horror genre that I think one of the first guys to do it was Hitchcock with psycho. He completely took that genre of film and completely changed the killing office. Sorry, spoiler alert, guys.

Chris Vander Kaay 20:22
So I think we should be saved by that. I

Alex Ferrari 20:23
mean, if it's, it's 70 years, what is it? 60 7060 years. 60 years ago, guys, if you haven't seen it's not on me by killing off your main, your main movie star within the first 20 minutes. And then your audiences like who? Who's? Who do I follow? Who's the protagonist? That was great. And then Wes Craven did it again, and scream, which was an homage to what Hitchcock did with Drew Barrymore. I mean, and Wes did it with Drew Barrymore. Again, so the audience had no idea and that was another scream completely flipped all the horror tropes upside down.

Chris Vander Kaay 20:55
Yeah, well, because that was the first time that people in a horror movie had ever seen a horror movie. And in a way, they were armed with the weapons that they needed to survive. And that's sort of the humor of the film is in watching. Some of them figure it out, and some of them not.

Alex Ferrari 21:08
And the ones who didn't obviously ended up where they end up, dead.

Chris Vander Kaay 21:11
What it's funny, you mentioned Tarantino a couple of minutes ago, in the way that he reinvents genres. And I think it's interesting, you can draw a direct parallel between the original Psycho and from dusk till dawn because they both do the same thing, which is they start as a crime film, and then they become a horror film at the halfway point. Yeah, it's a crime film about her stealing money. And is she going to get away with it? Until he kills her? And then from dusk till dawn, it's are these guys gonna rob the bank and get to Mexico safely. And then at the halfway point, it becomes a vampire film,

Alex Ferrari 21:38
right? So I want I want to talk to you about this, because this is this is a pet peeve of mine. I'm a huge Robert Rodriguez fan. I'm a huge Tarantino fan. I completely understand what you're saying. I feel that psycho did it. Right. And I don't know why he did it. Right. Why that worked? Or I feel that from dusk till dawn did not work in many ways. And Robert and twitten both are they've come out said you know, like, we made two movies. There was not even a sense of vampire anywhere, anywhere in the world of the of the heist film. So when it came out, it literally comes out of left field it literally it just comes light and I knew what we were all knew what was going to happen. But a lot of people were like this just felt it felt weird. We're in psycho. It doesn't feel weird, maybe because it kind of fit. I mean, everyone knew was called psycho. So there was going to be someone who died. So I guess people were kind of waiting for something to happen. It was shocking the way he did it. But from dusk till dawn. I don't I don't know. And I don't know if you're the first to ever hear this an animal analysis of from dusk till dawn. But I when I was watching it, which I'm a fan of the movie, I do like the movie, but it literally just felt like it came out of left field and a lot of people were turned off by it.

Chris Vander Kaay 22:48
Yeah, for sure. I wasn't I enjoy. I mean, I'm one of those people that I would rather a big swing and a miss in a film. That's an interesting try. Yes, then a success at doing okay, so when a movie even if a movie is not super successful at something, if they tried it, I'm happy that they tried something wild and different. I do think one thing that might be the difference between Psycho and from dusk till dawn. And I think because you and I are similar ages that the difference is that there was a psychic awareness in the world about psycho by the time we even became aware of it. Whereas from dusk till dawn was birthed within our lifetime. Right. Right. So I do think that there is to some degree, a level of us whether we're doing it consciously or not recognizing that generations have already accepted this as the thing that it is right. Whereas from dusk till dawn, we were the ones that are actually making that decision, you know, when it was happening in the moment. So I actually think I would have been more excited. Had there been no mention of vampires in the in the trailers, in the same way that there was no mention of the murder in psycho show that I did go in thinking that it was a Quentin Tarantino crime drama, and then have the rug pulled out from under me. The thing that I thought was kind of sad was that you did know it was coming? Yeah, I would agree with that. I probably would have upset more people.

Alex Ferrari 24:03
But no, I would. I would agree with that. And I always find it fascinating because that was the time right after that was such a very unique time in history, because Robert had just finished this Desperado, which was a big hit. And Pulp Fiction had just came out. So basically, the studio said, Hey, guys, what do you want to do? And turn to us like we're not going to get a chance to do this again, let's just do from dusk till dawn and they just had carte blanche to do whatever the hell they wanted. And and you could kind of tell like the first part of the movie is more Tarantino on the second part of the movie is more Rodriguez.

Chris Vander Kaay 24:33
Yeah, for sure. Well, and I it's funny, you said they have carte blanche, which I think is mostly true. But the one thing they didn't have control over is actually the marketing, which is I believe Tarantino even said that when he originally when they came up with the idea, he wanted to only market the first half of the film. He did want it to be a surprise. But I think in the day especially, you know nowadays, maybe you could do a stunt like that. But in the mid 90s You're spending a lot of money to put a film out in theaters. It's risky and These guys have been big hits, but within the indie industry, you know, they're gonna try and mark it the old fashioned way, you know, they're going to tell you everything that there is to know about this film. And so I would be curious to know, you know, what the thought experiment would be of how the film would have been received if everybody went in not knowing that it became a supernatural horror film at the halfway point.

Alex Ferrari 25:18
And to be fair, I mean, it did spawned two sequels and a show on El Rey so it's done. Okay. I mean, it's, that's not that it's not done. Well. It's done. Okay. Without without any questions. So, I wanted to kind of go over some of the tropes of certain genres, I saw the list of, of genres and I want to hear some of these in there and they're not the usual ones, but the first one obviously, is the slasher film. So the slasher film which was birthed in the in the late 70s, because when Halloween is the is the is the birth of the slasher film, right? Well, there's,

Chris Vander Kaay 25:51
you know, depending psycho, psycho age, you want to get into a psycho, you could say, beta blood by Baba.

Alex Ferrari 25:58
I mean, you've exchanged a lot of

Chris Vander Kaay 26:00
text. And I think the big dispute is that actually, people think Black Christmas is really the birthplace more than Halloween because it came out, was it a year or two earlier? Yeah. And it has the point of view killings and the, you know, the girls in the house. And so while Halloween gets the credit, because it is a world class film, and it is like unbelievably good at creating tension. There were a few films that were sort of proto slashers around before that one really sort of coined the phrase.

Alex Ferrari 26:24
Real quick. On a side note, this is some useless trivia. Did you know that John Carpenter was going to USC or had just graduated from USC film school at the time, and used some of us er C's film equipment to make Halloween? Then USC sued John Carpenter for that, because it was a huge hit. They wanted money. And John Carpenter never forgave them for that. That was because you know, can you imagine like a student all of a sudden, it was a monster hit. I mean, it was. It was a monster hit. But that's just a little, little ridiculous, useless trivia?

Chris Vander Kaay 27:01
Yeah. I mean, it doesn't surprise me because he made him a dark star at school. So obviously, you still had the connections. But yeah, I mean, Halloween, I think was the biggest independent film until was it either clerks or Blair Witch came along? I mean, so for years,

Alex Ferrari 27:14
I would I would say, I actually know that the answer to that it was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles released in 1989, which made 120 million domestically for a eight $9 million budget at that point. And it was in 19. Whatever. 91

Chris Vander Kaay 27:29
It can't hurt it. That's a good that's a good long run. 12 year run that it was the most successful independent release. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 27:35
yeah. Without question. Now. So what are some of the tropes of the slasher film? So you know, so we can kind of go into it?

Chris Vander Kaay 27:41
Oh, for sure. I mean, obviously, the one of the biggest ones is that there almost always is an opening set piece that not only that, we see characters die, so that we know what the stakes are. But also usually we're seeing some sort of origin of the slasher. Oftentimes, it'll be something that happened in the slasher, his childhood, or some person that was connected to the character that will eventually be revealed as the slasher, so that later in the story, we get the big reveal of, oh, it's the sister of or the child of or their mother or the mother of Exactly, yeah, yeah. So that's a big piece, right? The opening set piece, there's the one we always laugh about, which is that there's always a scene where somebody is playing strip poker or skinny dipping or some other way in which you can make only the female cast member take off their clothes and the the guy maybe gets naked, but it's always hidden by strategic shrubbery, right? And then, and there's a few of them, you know, there's the cat in the closet, right? That mean that how many times has that been done that the noise that someone hears and goes to investigate by themselves? The funny thing is, we only had room for six tropes per act. Oh, wait. There's so many tropes, and especially in slasher film we could have filled, we could have filled the whole book with the tropes of the slasher film, but we ended up with about 18 Plus our splash page. And then, of course, at the end, the fake the fake out death.

Alex Ferrari 28:59
That's a big one. Right? Oh, when they come back to life. Yeah. When they get back? Yeah.

Chris Vander Kaay 29:03
Yeah, in Halloween, it was she sat down on the floor with her back to him. And he sat up slowly. And, you know, or, you know, Jason jumping through the window after we think he's already expired or coming up out of the lake or whatever, you know, whatever that final jolt moment is, which all of them are really sort of playing off of, well, Halloween, and then Friday, the 13th was sort of ripping off the end of carry. And so that's kind of where that tradition comes from.

Alex Ferrari 29:25
Yeah, when Karis hand comes out of the grave, back, yeah, that was 76 If I'm not mistaken, so yeah, that was yeah, that was that was another one. I'm sorry. Let's do another one. This one. I'm actually curious about the creepy kid movie. Yeah, that's not as John that's not a genre that's been abused as much.

Chris Vander Kaay 29:44
No, not so much. It's interesting because a lot of these genres are cyclical, right? They'll be super popular for a short time and then they'll vanish and it'll be gone for a while and then something resuscitates them I mean, we were just talking about knives out when was the last time we saw like a big budget of star studded Murder Mystery, you know, like one of those men are home stories like clue. It had been years. And then this one comes out. And I think the same thing is true of the creepy kid movie because they were big in like the 50s in the 60s. And I think a lot of that had to do with sort of the symbolic struggle of the breaking of the home, right, because of the the war effort. And then father's coming home damaged. And then, you know, a divorce becoming a thing in American culture. And so I think a lot of that was speaking to that.

Alex Ferrari 30:26
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Chris Vander Kaay 30:37
But then they did start to pop up again in the 80s and 90s. You know, films like the good son and things like that. And then I do think we had a couple years back, there was a short time where we're getting a chunk of them again, we got an orphan, which was pretty fun. And then I think Vera Farmiga was in that and I think she was in one other one too, maybe with Sam Rockwell where they were parents.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
Oh, God, what was that movie?

Chris Vander Kaay 30:58
Joshua, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but every once in a while, you'll just get like a sort of a small batch of them sort of popping back up, but for whatever weird reason that that's the way that the systems work, you know, we're, we're cyclical, and then suddenly, this thing sort of organically just resurfaces. And that's

Alex Ferrari 31:15
another that's a genre that isn't, like I said, is not a genre we see very often so that is something that could make your story as a screenwriter pop out a little because if you make a slasher film, you know, there's a million of those, and, um, they're not as popular anymore. slasher films are not as popular anymore unless you make a self aware ad slasher style film, which is something that be a lot of filmmakers do another that pay homage to the 80s slasher films. But the creepy kids genre is not. It's not done very often. So if everyone listening out there, if you're making a horror movie, a creepy kid, you know, a creepy kid ghost story would probably not be a bad thing to do.

Chris Vander Kaay 31:55
Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that's good about the creepy kid genre is that it just has sort of built in creepiness. Because if you catch the right child, oh, a lot of your work is done for you. You know, yeah, well, like

Alex Ferrari 32:05
six cents, which was like a twist on the creepy kid movie. Because he Yeah, he wasn't the bad guy. But he was still kind of creepy. Yeah, for sure.

Chris Vander Kaay 32:13
Yeah. You go back and forth for the first act of that movie about what's what's his kids deal?

Alex Ferrari 32:17
Okay, exactly. So what are some of the tropes of that of that genre

Chris Vander Kaay 32:20
up so one of the one of the big tropes that comes up is oftentimes it's a childless couple, right is going to be part of the center, because they're going to be bringing a child into their life, right? Either we beat them before they'd had their own kid, and then they have a kid, Allah, Rosemary's Baby, or like, or I guess the Omen, too. But then you have other movies where you're adopting a child, right? You're bringing a child that didn't, that does not your child, and you're adopting them, bringing them into your life, and then realizing that because you didn't raise them, there are secrets that this child has, that you didn't know about. But it's almost always that there's some sort of secret about your child, right? In Rosemary's Baby is that it was the son of Satan in the Omen, same deal. But in in orphan actually, I don't want to spoil orphan. So I won't say what the twist is in that one, because it's pretty fun. But it's almost always there's some sort of secret Revelation, we don't know. And when we find that out, you know, it hits the fan. It's either that or the other cliche sometimes is that one of the parents seems to know that something is going on with their kid, but nobody else believes them, because it's just an innocent little child. Right? And so there's that element of like, oh, you know, Susan couldn't possibly be doing that. There might be something wrong with you, dear. Right. And almost always, it's the mom, right? Because we're gaslighting the mother for having any question about being a loving mother. You know, that's where that sort of 5060s ideal comes in.

Alex Ferrari 33:34
And there was that movie that came out a few years ago, which was the combination of the creepy kid superhero genre. What was the name of that one?

Chris Vander Kaay 33:42
Yeah. brightburn Bright burn. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 33:44
that was like when I saw the trailer, I was like, that's a pretty good matchup.

Chris Vander Kaay 33:48
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if What if Superman was a sociopath, but what would happen to him as a kid as a kid?

Alex Ferrari 33:53
Yeah, it's like that. That's insane. Yeah, and then, and we'll talk a little bit about that. Because I think one of the ways that you can create new twists on these these older genres is to combine them, you know, like to combine like, obviously, scream, added a level high level of comedy and self awareness, to a horror film, essentially. And it is a fairly bloody, brutal horror film. But there's a lot of laughs in that movie,

Chris Vander Kaay 34:20
for sure. Yeah, I mean, I feel like oftentimes horror is the genre, with the most experimentation gets done. And then it just sort of filters out eventually into other arenas. And I think it's because you're allowed to get away with a lot more in horror. But definitely, I mean, one of the things we've always talked about, I've been a screenwriting professor for a few years, and even before that, when I was just a writer, I would always talk to people about the idea of the power of crossing genre means you had expectations but now that you've joined those expectations with an arena that has other expectations, you've now created a circumstance where your audience doesn't know which set of expectations to look for and that's powerful because it means now you have the element of surprise back In a way that you didn't view, we're just working in the one,

Alex Ferrari 35:02
right? So it's like the comedy, The comedy buddy cop movie versus the a little bit more serious buddy cop movie with some comedic elements. So like Lethal Weapon, arguably has some funny scenes in it. But it's pretty dark. I mean, you meet Martin Riggs, and he's got a gun to his mouth. I mean, it's, it's a it's a fairly dark film. But then you got 48 hours, which is a straight up comedy with action elements in it. With that.

Chris Vander Kaay 35:26
Yeah. And I think the genre obviously goes, it's flexible. Most genres tend to be kind of flexible about what you can. And so you'll have ones that go to the more dramatic and the more serious or the more action oriented, the more comedic. And I think that's one of the great things about genre is the elasticity. Like how far can you take the framework of this one kind of thing that we've already codified? How far can you stretch that before it snaps? You know, before it becomes another thing, like I used to joke about the problem with drama is it's the most recessive genre, right? You put enough jokes in a drama, it's a Comedy, Drama goes away, right? You put a time machine in a drama becomes a science fiction, film drama goes away. So this is this running joke that like dramas, the least interesting genre to work in, because it's so easy to turn it into something else by just adding one thing, you know,

Alex Ferrari 36:11
right. So yeah, I mean, Back to the Future is a sci fi i It's funny, I wouldn't call it a comedy. But it is funny. And it's heartfelt. And there's, there's a, there's drama in it. And but it's a it's a sci fi film is the site. Well, how would you jump into that? Well,

Chris Vander Kaay 36:29
for sure, it's science fiction. But if I had to stick it in another genre, I would say at the coming of age comedy, for sure. And it's it's almost sort of 5050 Because there's a storyline with him and Doc Brown, that's almost all science fiction. And there's a storyline with him and his dad and his mom, which is almost an all coming of age story, you know, obviously with the thread of the the time problem within it. But that's one of the things I loved about it. And it was the 80s was really where the idea of cross genre or cross pollination of genres kind of came in. Because you have all these film students who were coming out having studied genre for the first time, it's like the 60s and 70s and 80s. These filmmakers were going to film school for the first time. So they're the only ones that ever had the conversation about what genres are, what what elements codify them, right? The generation before them was the ones that were actually inventing them, right? Your John Ford's, they were building genres. They weren't defining them. They were just making them. And then after,

Alex Ferrari 37:21
and then also this, the film school generation didn't really cross genres too much Spielberg, Lucas. I mean, I mean, look, it's it was sci fi, sci fi action adventure. And Indiana Jones was kind of like that serial adventure. But like, you know, taxi driver, pretty straightforward Raging Bull. Pretty straightforward, right? Godfather pretty straightforward. You know, they weren't as cross genre ring. They weren't combining genres, much in the 70s. I agree with you in the 80s.

Chris Vander Kaay 37:45
They debts. Spielberg is interesting, because he kind of has a foot in the 70s in the 80s, right? Most of the other guys you mentioned were late 70s, right? You're Coppola's and your Scorsese. And those guys are more sort of traditional in the shape that they put their story in, where Spielberg while he came up in the same era and did some stuff early on, that maybe falls directly into genres. I think, you know, JAWS and duel are pretty clear what those are, but close

Alex Ferrari 38:09
encounters close at but at his upcoming coming of age. Exactly.

Chris Vander Kaay 38:14
Yeah. And for sure. And I think it was it was Spielberg's influence both as a as a director but mainly as a producer, working with guys like Robert Zemeckis, Joe, Dante, big in a big way. has a huge love for film, but also understands the ways to play in different sandboxes I mean, Gremlins is a perfect example. It's a horror film. It's a Christmas film. It's a coming of age film. It's a comedy, right? Yeah, it covers a lot of ground

Alex Ferrari 38:39
Goonies. Yeah, I mean, Goonies is an adventure coming of age comedy, as well, if you just don't, I'm trying to think of films in today's world that kind of does that. I mean, they're not a lot of our there. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but like, it's from the studio system. Everything's so homogenized right now. And it's all based on IP, and they pretty much staying strict to, you know, I mean, Avengers and Marvel movies have just, they're basically action comedies, with adventure comedies, with some dramatic elements drizzled on top.

Chris Vander Kaay 39:11
Yeah, I think all of the adventurous stuff that's being done it sort of the nebulous edges of genres are mostly being done in the independent arena. Horror used to be the independent arena. It has, you know, since the late 80s, I would say become more respectable and become more of a studio thing. But horror has always been sort of toying around with that stuff recently. other genres, like especially the I guess you'd call it, the indie drama world, or the indie world has sort of taken on that mantle now, because when you're spending at least $150 million on a movie, you're not allowed to experiment the people paying for it won't let you, you know, and the mid budget movie is gone. So it's only small budget movies that can have the risk of doing something daring anymore,

Alex Ferrari 39:52
right in the days of the 18 to $20 million. Goonies is gone.

Chris Vander Kaay 39:58
Yeah, it's unfortunate because It's now the $80 million Goonies is now a $40 million season of Stranger Things on television. It's like movie at all.

Alex Ferrari 40:06
Right? And that's where you can make the more money. I mean, in all honesty, you'll make more money on that and that button business model than you will and more creative freedom than you Oh, for sure. We're just shifted

Chris Vander Kaay 40:17
now. Yeah, that there's more there's more creative freedom in television storytelling than there is in theatrical storytelling to a degree.

Alex Ferrari 40:23
Now, the Christmas film, we were Christmas film has a lot of tropes in it. And I love to talk about because it's a genre I've seen grow exponentially in the in the last four or five years, or I'm seeing because Hallmark and was a Hallmark and lifetime have their, you know, they just they just spitting these things out all day and on Netflix as well. It's putting these things out well, perfect example was the Gremlins, which is I forget that is a Christmas movie, arguably, arguably diehard is the greatest Christmas movie of all time. And we can have that conversation. I did a whole episode on that. But we could talk about that later. But the book The Christmas film is, is a genre that there's there being made more and more because there is so much more need for all the streaming services to have Christmas films. So what are some of the tropes of a Christmas?

Chris Vander Kaay 41:12
I think the strongest central trope of any Christmas film is the massive conflict that's going to ruin the holiday. Whatever shape it comes in. That's always the element, right? You never get a movie where it's like, where it's a straightforward drama where you like it'll say, romantic comedy. I know there's romance in the Christmas films on Hallmark. But there's almost always some enormous hook in the center of it. That's going to ruin someone's Christmas, right? It's funny because almost all Christmas movies are actually about how someone's Christmas is going to be ruined. And it's kind of funny because the the goal of the movie then is to just solve how do we not ruin Christmas and almost every single one whether it's the Gremlins are ruining Christmas, or Tim Allen accidentally murdered Santa Claus on his roof during Christmas, you know, there's always some element where the the holiday itself is at risk. And we have to save it in some way. Whether it's on a small scale the family, right, everybody's coming together, like in home alone. It's home alone, right? Yeah. Or whether it's on a cosmic scale like Santa the Santa Claus with an Allen there's always some existential threat to the idea of the holiday of Christmas. And I think it's it's funny that no matter what genre you put it in, whether it's a romantic comedy, whether it's supernatural, like Santa Claus, or Krampus, or you know, any of them, they all seem to fall existentially into that same thing, which is like save Christmas, it's gonna die if this thing happens, you know?

Alex Ferrari 42:30
And I always I always, I always joke, but it's not. It's not too far off. If you've got a dog saving Christmas, it's pre sold. Me. It's not. It's it's that if you got a dog saving Christmas, or better yet, all the litter saving Christmas like there's puppies involved? Oh, yeah, it just it's presold.

Chris Vander Kaay 42:47
Even better if you want to have a kid from a family whose parents are about to divorce runs away to save a dog. And then the parents have to get back together in order to save the kid not dog.

Alex Ferrari 42:57
Stop it'll stop it stop it. We're just spitting out gold here all day guys. This isn't this is these are free to take them and do with them as you wish. And one others honor I wanted to talk about which is a newer genre. The young adult dystopian romance, which is it is a 2000 Beyond 2000s genre. I don't remember seeing my I've seen dystopian before, but the young adult dystopian is something of the 2000s Am I wrong?

Chris Vander Kaay 43:29
I think in film, it is of the 2000s it was I mean, if you can go back to the I think the giver is probably the most famous example is a film that was wrapped up in you know, production staff was for 25 years before Jeff Bridges finally got it made. But that was a book that came out before the millennium. So I think yeah, it came about in why a fiction first, you know, young adult fiction, and then became a genre because they started adapting the books. Interestingly, we sort of oh, why a dystopian romance in some way to Harry Potter because Harry Potter was a why a series that became so successful that everybody just wanted to adapt the next popular why a series because if you can find a franchise and the first one does good money, you're set for a few years at least you know, and that's when they started rolling in right we got our hunger games and we got our turn remember the one about the divergent divergent

Alex Ferrari 44:14
Yeah, that died the die that that the last one they didn't even release? Yeah, the Maze

Chris Vander Kaay 44:19
Runner right? Yeah, people were finding and what happens is and you the industry will sort of write which books it wants, right? Because somebody immediately tried to make one that was much closer to Harry Potter, which was the was the one about the gods.

Alex Ferrari 44:35
Oh, yeah. Percy, Percy, Percy, Percy Jackson Verstegen, I actually enjoy the Percy Jackson

Chris Vander Kaay 44:41
and and there was two of them and they did fairly well but in the scheme of things the YA dystopian romance you know like the the self sufficient girl who has to choose between one of two guys right that sexy punk rocker or the you know the straight laced whoever that really connected with broader audiences and also the the big hook about the world, the crazy world that they live in, those really seem to connect with audiences. And so that became a thing. Obviously, I listed the three that I just mentioned. But then there were ones that popped up on TV as well. There were TV series that were clearly influenced by it and you'd find on places like ABC Family. And so yeah, it became, it became its own sub genre to the degree that it definitely felt like it belonged in the book.

Alex Ferrari 45:20
Yeah, it is a it is an interesting genre. I mean, Twilight, let's not even get into that. That debacle. I'm sorry. Everybody out there. I'm sorry. I saw Twilight and I mean, you don't introduce the villain to the last 20 minutes. I'm sorry. You've lost me. It's just very upsetting. You're staying quiet. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

Chris Vander Kaay 45:39
No. I always I always say that there there's an audience for every movie Fair enough. Just because I'm not it. So to be clear, I'm not but

Alex Ferrari 45:49
you know your closet in your closet a Twilight fan let's just admitted here on the show. Now,

Chris Vander Kaay 45:53
I'm not gonna lie. I've seen all the movies but to be fair, the reason I watched them is because as a screenwriter, you have to know what everybody else around you is watching for sure. That's the reason I watched one of them because because the my one of my favorite directors of all time, David Slade, directed one. Oh, yes. Great director. Yeah, he's fantastic. I couldn't believe he directed the Twilight Zone. But turns out he's the smart one because he laughed all the way to the bank. And he has a fantastic career now. So

Alex Ferrari 46:18
yeah, he did. Okay. It okay. And I think the genius of Harry Potter, obviously, among many things, it's generational. You start with the character when he's when he's what at first grade, essentially. And then you take them all the way through high school or the equivalent of So, I mean, that was just a money making money printing machine.

Chris Vander Kaay 46:36
Yeah, I Well, in the film smartly learned to mature along with the viewers, right, because the first ones were much more sort of, I don't wanna say cartoonish, but

Alex Ferrari 46:45
Goonies more, more, more Guney asked like they're going on an adventure. And it's more innocent, like when you get the prisoner Aska ban for just gets dark.

Chris Vander Kaay 46:54
Well, I mean, the smartest thing they ever did was to hire quadros, to take them from childhood to adolescence, because he understood how to sort of muddy the waters of the world and make it feel even though it's fantastical, it still feels there's some sort of realism to the way that he photographed it, you know, so it starts to become higher stakes. And then in the fourth one, a character actually dies. And we have to see the ramifications of that. And so the film sort of matures, the franchise matures in the way that the people reading them would be maturing or watching them.

Alex Ferrari 47:20
And fun fact, the guy who dies in the Goblet of Fire is now our new Batman. Yep.

Chris Vander Kaay 47:25
He died in Goblet of Fire and then he went to be an immortal shiny vampire.

Alex Ferrari 47:30
But to be fair, and I'm gonna get on to this too much, I think. I don't know. He's a fantastic actor. He's actually got a bum rap because of the Twilight films, but he's actually a really, it'd be interesting. I'm interested to see where this goes. Every time they've ever cast a Batman or a joker. They always crap all over it. And people all the fanboys come out and just like this is horrible. And then yeah,

Chris Vander Kaay 47:49
that is how fandom works, right? People get mad about stuff. It seems like a weird, you know, a weird moniker but it did come from the word fanatic. So I guess it does make sense to a degree

Alex Ferrari 47:59
I mean, I mean, you and I are both have similar vintages. So you remember when Michael Keaton was cast? I mean,

Chris Vander Kaay 48:04
oh my Yeah, the comedy guy from Beetlejuice. Really, Mr.

Alex Ferrari 48:07
Mom, Mr. Mom is gonna be Batman. And now they're talking about bringing them back to play the old like, like an older Dark Knight kind of Batman?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:17
Wouldn't that be amazing? Fingers crossed? I want to Batman Beyond for sure. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 48:21
that would be amazing. Alright, so I'm gonna ask you a few questions ask all of my guests are? What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:29
Um, I would say a, you're lucky that you decided to be a screenwriter instead of any other job, because it's the only one you can do from almost anywhere. So good choice on that,

Alex Ferrari 48:38
and essentially free and essentially, almost free to do it doesn't cost?

Chris Vander Kaay 48:43
Oh, for sure. It's one of the only ones that doesn't have any overhead for you to have to do your supply your trade? You know, if you became a drummer instead of a guitarist, that would be a bad idea for investment purposes. I think writers are the same way. But my advice would be well buy this book. But um, no. My real advice would be you have to you a you have to watch a lot of stuff. But you have to you have to actively watch is it's the thing that most people don't do when they watch something. They watch something and they're entertained by it. And then they emulate the things that they like or, but they don't, they don't dig further into what it is that they like to understand what that thing did in order to be effective, that made you like it. You have to be able to watch actively. And that's one of the reasons why even though I don't tell people to go to film school, I don't tell people necessarily to take screenwriting courses. I do. Tell them read books that can teach you how to do what I'm talking about. And it could be in any way you can learn how to do analysis, from reading books about literature and things like that. But learning how to do analysis of a film is super important for writers. Because you have to you have to be able to create a thing that will capture the spirit of a movie in the heads of every single person who wants to make the movie but hasn't made it yet. And that is a very difficult task. So you have to understand how to be able to push all the buttons in someone's brain, so that they get a sense of the movie in their head, and it's excites them enough that they want to go and make it. So learning how to do the deep dive on a film, watch something, enjoy it the first time, but when you watch it the second the third time, watch it with an eye towards how is this film doing what it does not just I like this film. And that's not always a tough thing to do to separate yourself like that.

Alex Ferrari 50:20
Wouldn't you agree, though, that it is tougher than ever to be a writer in the sense that we as an audience are so much more savvy, so much more educated in what story is like things that I saw in the 80s You know, when Bloodsport came out Bloodsport was the greatest action film ever made for my time and my age. But now, you know, there's you got another 30 years of just story story story. Now kids coming up are literally got every film ever made every TV show ever made on at the tip of their fingers. So as a writer, you've got to be so much better and so much sharper, to tell a compelling story that people will not just go, Oh, I've seen this 1000 times,

Chris Vander Kaay 51:03
for sure. But I will also say that all of those, say when we're talking about the movie from the 80s, right, we're talking about an action film, everybody watching, it wasn't exposed to the entirety of the action canon that we've seen. But neither were the people writing it. Right. Right. So the idea is that writers have the same responsibility now that they did then, which is to know what's already happened, and how you can move it further down, right, but how you can take it to the next step. The thing I love about Ryan Johnson is that he's really good at that he understands where he doesn't just write stories, he understands where the framework for the story and the understanding of the story exists in society now, so that he can use that to further what it is that he's getting out with his story. I mean, they were doing the same thing with the the film, the I guess you'd call them the what the film Brad's right from the 80s of Spielberg, and all of them, they were making their own marches to 50s films in the 80s. Right. That's what Star Wars is. That's what Indiana Jones is. But they were they were taking that and then they were turning it into something that would come out from the 80s. And you just you have to be able to do the same thing now at Yes, it's more work, certainly. But in a way, I think in some, in some ways, it feels more rewarding. Because when you think about oh, no one knew anything in the 80s going into a movie, right? So I can impress them pretty easily. You can impress them now. It means you're pretty good.

Alex Ferrari 52:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean, exactly. If you're, if you're really good now you would have killed in the 80s.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:26
You would have been so ahead of your time that no one got you. I mean, if that happened to John Carpenter more times than I can count, everybody thinks that the thing is a classic now it bombed when it came was horrible.

Alex Ferrari 52:35
Yeah, it's, it's a delicate balance.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:37
Right?

Alex Ferrari 52:38
And yeah, exactly. You don't want to be too ahead of your time.

Chris Vander Kaay 52:41
Yeah. Doesn't do him any good. Now that clap that it's a classic, because he still didn't make any money off of it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 52:47
But he's not bitter at all. He's not bitter at all. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life,

Chris Vander Kaay 52:56
um, the tear is gonna sound crazy for a writer, don't be taken in by the tyranny of story. And I've watched this happen in the in the fan community, which is the demand that everything in a story be answered. It's the death of storytelling in some ways. They're not to be able to be question marks at the end of a story. Everybody wants everything answered. And that in some ways kills the interest that you could, like, the best example I can use is, the best way to explain it is to say, when something isn't answered in a film, it doesn't mean it's unanswerable. It just means it wasn't answered. Right. And that sense of mystery needs to exist to some degree for people to want to revisit something, if I can watch a movie. And then by the end, everything has been handed to me in a neat package, and there's nothing for me to pour over. Why would I bother revisiting that? And the thing that that made me realize that was actually sort of watching the career of David Lynch. And as it sort of culminated in Twin Peaks, the return that show so brilliantly, gave people answers that only revealed more questions that they thought they wanted. answers to, yeah. And and what was powerful about that is he did answer questions that he started asking in the late 80s, with the TV series, but more importantly, he had a conversation, he gave you an emotional experience. And he asked you a few more questions. And at the end of the day, that is what art should be doing. Right? So don't feel so paralyzed by the need to answer every question about your story, that you lose the emotional impact that's going to make it powerful. And that sense of mystery or ambiguity that allows that thing to keep its life and vitality past the point that someone's even seen it once.

Alex Ferrari 54:32
Yeah, I when you said unanswered questions, I just the first thing that popped in my head was inception. You know, then the the that the ending you just like waiting in waiting, and he cuts him like, Oh, my God, it was so good.

Chris Vander Kaay 54:45
Yeah, and in forever, even if people think they have theories about what the movie actually means, because of that ending image, it will always be discussed, right? If we've been given the answer, find that would have been satisfying in the moment maybe, but ultimately, would that have been the best decision For the life of the film past the first time that you've ever seen it, and when the next generation of film gets to filmmakers gets to watch it, or critics get to write about it, you know, that's where it's fun is where there are holes left for us to participate in that.

Alex Ferrari 55:14
And, and Kubrick was pretty much the master of that, for sure. And every single one of his

Chris Vander Kaay 55:20
films in 2001 is in microcosm, you know, that's but almost every one of his films leaves that beautiful ambiguity in some way for you to be able to have to be in concert and in conversation with the movie.

Alex Ferrari 55:32
Yeah. And not to not to jump on on Kubrick, but like, every time his films are so in his stories, because he was the writer for most of those. He was either the CO writer or the writer, the screenplay, as well are adapted from a novel. They age, like all art does. So like good art will mean different things to you at different points in your life. So I still remember watching Eyes Wide Shut in 99. When they came out, and my friends came out, we can't I was a film geek and my friends, like, what do you think of like, I don't know, I don't understand it, but I probably will in 10 years. And, and then, you know, once I was married and had kids, and I watched it, I was like, oh, okay, I kind of get what you get. And then in about another 10 or 15 years, I'll watch it again and go. Okay, Stanley, now I get what you said. It's like great art. Does that great stories do that?

Chris Vander Kaay 56:22
Oh, for sure. I mean, I think 2001 doesn't really hit home for anybody until they've either had a massive loss in their life or they've had a child. The idea of the cycle of human life doesn't mean as much to you in its profundity in that film until you've witnessed one end or the other of it.

Alex Ferrari 56:36
Yeah, it's and we could I should do a whole episode on just Kubrick. I haven't never done that. I'm just such a maverick fan.

Chris Vander Kaay 56:42
Let me know because Steven Espinosa, my co writer would love to join you for that. It's his favorite film of filmmaker of

Alex Ferrari 56:47
all time. Oh, yeah. I mean, I I've gone deep down the rabbit hole on Kubrick more times than I care to admit. Now three of your favorite films of all time.

Chris Vander Kaay 56:57
Okay, so my three favorite films. It's funny, anytime somebody asked me to come on to do an appearance on a podcast, if they're discussing movies, they'll say what movies you want to talk about. And the first thing is the first three movies I asked him if they've covered because they're my three favorite movies are Magnolia by Paul Thomas Sanders. Sure. The documentary American movie grand. And this is the this is the one that always throws people a little bit. The other two are like okay, I get that there is a, a small Canadian horror film directed by Bruce McDonald called Pontypool from 2008. And that is my third favorite film. Many people have not seen it, those who have don't understand my love of it. But I think any great enterprising independent filmmaker who watches that movie will be deeply inspired because it is a film that cost I think, right around a million dollars, maybe it basically takes place inside of a radio station in a basement, in a tiny church in the middle of Canada. But it is one of the most beautifully shot films, it does so much with the budget that it has. And it's just endlessly clever. One of the things I always say as a writer, is ideas are the only thing that you can continuously produce for free in a film, everything else costs money. And that movie had great ideas, crazy ideas in spades. And that's one of the things I always point out, like, especially young filmmakers are trying to put a film together, they got almost no money to scrape together I say, Well, you know, the idea is where it's at, right? That's the thing that's free, find the thing that's going to get people talking, usually it's in the idea phase, that doesn't cost you anything.

Alex Ferrari 58:19
Now where can people find the book and and pick it up.

Chris Vander Kaay 58:23
So it will be available to like, it'll be shipped to you on March 24. It's already available for preorder. And you can either get it from the publishers website, Lawrence King, which in fact, if anybody wants to see what the book looks like, if you go to Lawrence King, I believe there's an entire genre available that you can flip through on the pages there. So you can see the style. I want to say it's the Western revenge film, I can't remember for sure, but I think that's the one. So you can go and you can get the tone, you know, and get a sense of whether you'd like it or not. But you can pick it up from the Lawrence King website and get it from amazon.com. And then once the actual street date hits, you'll also be able to get it at brick and mortar stores. If any of those still exist, you'll still be able to pick them up there.

Alex Ferrari 59:02
I appreciate it. Man. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute ball geeking out with you about genre, and about the different kinds of plots and tropes that we have to avoid. So thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Chris Vander Kaay 59:14
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
I want to thank Chris again for coming on the show and just turning a spotlight on John rrah cliches and how we can avoid them. So thank you so much, Chris. If you want to get a link to the book, or anything else we spoke about in this episode, please head over to the new show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 066. So from now on all show notes will be on bulletproof screenwriting dot T V. Again, guys, I'm really excited about the new website. I want you to check it out. I built it with so much love for you guys, the bulletproof screenwriting tribe and hope it helps you on your path. of being an amazing screenwriter and also making your screenplays bulletproof. Thank you again so much. As always keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 065: How NOT to Get Screwed on a Screenwriting Assignment

A MESSAGE TO ALL TRIBE MEMBERS: I know everyone in the world is going through a scary and tough time right now. I decided that I will continue to create content that can help you not only escape the troubles of the world for a short time but also help you move forward on your filmmaking and screenwriting path. I find myself looking for things that make me feel normal and I know Indie Film Hustle and Bulletproof Screenwriting are an everyday part of the lives of many people around the world.

I will continue to release fresh content for the weeks and months to come. This event will pass and I want you to be ready for any opportunities that might come your way. Stay safe and keep on hustling!


Today on the show I going to be discussing how NOT to get screwed on a screenwriting assignment. According to Wikipedia is

A screenwriter can also be approached and offered an assignment. Assignment scripts are generally adaptations of an existing idea or property owned by the hiring company, but can also be original works based on a concept created by the writer or producer. 

Screenwriting assignments are the holy grail for screenwriters. The problem is that that shiny carrot sometimes blinds you to the reality of what is going on. I spoke to a very season industry screenwriter with many credits under his belt, who shall remain nameless, and was enlightened by how producers and production companies take advantage of inexperienced screenwriters.

The predators are not just in the production and distribution waters, they are also alive and well in the development oceans as well. I hope this episode shines a light into this dark corner of the industry and shows screenwriters how to protect themselves and their work. Get ready to take some notes. Enjoy!

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Now, guys, today we're going to talk about how not to get screwed on a writing assignment. And I've had the pleasure of talking to many, many seasoned, and also world famous screenwriters over the course of this show, and of my life in the business. And I was talking to a very seasoned screenwriter the other day, and he was telling me stories of what happened to him when he first was starting out in the business. Now, I know a lot of screenwriters out there when when you're first starting out and somebody shines a golden carrot in front of you. They dangle it right in front of you. You get all excited and hot and bothered and like oh my god, they're picking me Is this the thing? Is this going to be my lottery ticket to get to the other side? If any of you guys have read my first book shooting for the mob, you'll know that that is not true.

But but when you're young or when you're inexperienced in the business, people will take advantage of you, producers will take advantage of you. Production companies and distribution companies will take advantage of you as a screenwriter. So the story goes with this screenwriter who will remain nameless. He was telling me that when he was first coming up, there was this specific production company that offered him a writing assignment. And it was very early on in his career. He might have written one or two screenplays, they read one of his screenplays and said, hey, we'd like your style. We'd like to hire you to write a script and here's the idea. And what they gave him is basically they gave them the the general notes of what they wanted. So a lot of the key story elements and points and they had a director attached, you know, very well known director as well. So it all seemed very, very legit. And they sent over the contract and he looked it over and he signed it and he would get x amount of dollars at the beginning of production and he would get so much but you know at the end and it was well below W GA because he wasn't W GA at the time. And he signed it. And off to the races he went. And he must have spent anywhere from yet or 567 months on this project, going back and forth, mind you not being paid a dime yet. And he was just very excited to be working with them. He went back and forth, spoke to the producers, all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, nothing. He was ghosted. He could not get anybody to return his calls, the company was still very much in, in business, but they just stopped returning his calls. And he had worked for months, spent countless hours writing the screenplay, and he got paid absolutely nothing. And the reason why is when he went back to his contract, he noticed a little, little sentence or section that said, he will get paid on the first day of production, which means that if this movie never went into production, he would never get paid.

Either he didn't see it, or was blinded by the shiny golden carrot that was being dangled in front of him, but he signed it anyway. And he just at the end of the day, lost all of that time, mind you, he became a better writer, he got more experience. But he got paid not a dime for his work. So this is a problem that happens a lot in the screenwriting and development side of the business, you as screenwriters need to be paid for your work, or at least have an agreement and understand what you're getting into. If you are, if you are a screenwriter who is partnering with, let's say a film director, and you're getting percentage points, and in you know, you, we're all in it together, and we're all trying to raise money and blah, blah, blah, that's a different conversation, at least you know what you're getting into, and you're walking into. But when you have the illusion that you're going to get paid, when this for sure, like slam dunk, this is obviously going to happen kind of deal. And it doesn't go through you You wasted a lot of time, when you could have been working, getting paid to work somewhere else, working on your own specs, scripts that you have complete control over and ownership from, you know, this poor screenwriter has no ownership, oh, this work because it was based on an original idea that they had. So he can't even go and sell this script. There's no actual issues contractually, it is exactly legally what the contract said it was. So be very, very careful of signing development deals, especially early on, especially if you don't have an agent, manager or or lawyer to take a look at it, please, if you are going to sign something, if you can just spend the few $100 that you might have to spend to have an attorney, a good entertainment attorney who understands these kinds of deals. Look it over, please do so because it can protect you and save you months of time wasted time. I know that this screenwriter actually turned down other work, because he was so invested in this work, and lost revenue and income because of it. And trust me, I know this story, because when I was almost making a movie for the $20 million movie for the mafia, and everything looks so real. And I was being flown around Hollywood and all this stuff. I turned down commercial work as a director, because I was like, Well, I'm talking to this big movie star tomorrow. Why am I going to go waste my time? directing a commercial when I've got this sure deal in front of me. Mind you, I was younger and very inexperienced and an absolute egomaniac at the time. But these are lessons you learn. And I hope that this episode helps you not make that same mistake. You know, I know we all want that shot. We all want that opportunity to show who we are as artists, as writers, as filmmakers. We want that opportunity. And when someone promises you that opportunity, you're more likely to believe it because you want to believe it. And that is the dangerous part. A con man can only con you if you believe what story he's telling you. And if you really want to make it true in your mind and really want to believe it. That's when they've got you. So this company did that to them. And that company is still in business right now, by the way, has never called him back. It'd been years and he still every once in a while drops a phone call just to see what going on, and never return his calls. It's just the way the business is run. I hope this episode helped you out a lot. Again, I know a lot of you out there are going through a lot right now with the Coronavirus and everything else that's happening. But it will pass. Our industry is going to be shaken to the core. As many industries around the world are being shaken to the core, the weaker and the less stable companies in our industry will fall will collapse. I promise you, you'll start seeing major, major changes in the weeks and months to come in our industry, how that will affect screenwriters. how that will affect anybody is still up in the air.

There is still a lot of opportunity, a lot of production being done. I don't know what's going to happen in the future. All you can do. The only thing you can control as a screenwriter is to keep writing. When there was a great when those there was the great writers strike. A lot of great scripts were written in spec while the writer strike was going on. writers were writing. So take this opportunity if you are in self quarantine, right? If you are at home, don't just sit there and watch Netflix all day. Educate yourself. Take a course read a book, listen to a book, watch something to educate yourself to help you with the craft. There's so many courses available. So many online, so much online education. Obviously indie film, hustle TV has hundreds of hours of content and education for screenwriters. So you can definitely check that out at Indie film hustle.tv. And there's free stuff all over the place, whether it's on YouTube, whether it's articles, whether just educate yourself as much as humanly possible. And write, write, write, and write. Take advantage of this time. Because I don't know how long we'll be here. It could be a few months, it could be longer could be shorter, but take advantage of every hour every day that goes by, right. Don't let this be an excuse not to write. At the end of this when we see the light at the end of the tunnel. When we start coming out of this. There will be Rubble around us in this industry. But that's when the greatest changes and the greatest opportunities present themselves. If you're ready, with good scripts, with writing samples, with TV pilots with whatever you've been working on, you'll be ready while other people might have been not working as hard as you this is the time this is your chance. I wish you nothing but the best. I wish nothing but safety for you and your family. Safe travels my friends. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 064: Crash, Boom, Bang! How to Write Action Movies with Michael Lucker

Today on the show we have screenwriter, Michael Lucker. Michael is a writer, director, and producer with twenty years of experience creating film, television, animation and digital media. He began his career writing and directing television commercials while earning his undergraduate degree in broadcasting and film at Boston University’s College of Communication.

Soon after he landed in Los Angeles working in production on series and specials for ABC, NBC, CBS and HBO before taking a job as assistant to Steven Spielberg at Amblin Entertainment on feature films Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade, Arachnophobia, Joe Vs. The Volcano, Always, Back To The Future II & III and Jurassic Park.

He went onto serve in creative affairs at Hollywood Pictures where he worked on such movies as Crimson Tide, Terminal Velocity, Taking Care of Business and Straight Talk. Michael then embarked on a career as a screenwriter, helping pen more than twenty feature screenplays for Paramount, Disney, DreamWorks, Fox, and Universal, including Vampire In Brooklyn, Home On The Range, Good Intentions and Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron, which was nominated for an Academy Award in 2002 as best animated feature.

“You don’t have to be a writer of action films to benefit from Michael Lucker’s rock-solid screenwriting advice, but if you are an action writer… it is essential.” — John Baldecchi, Producer: Point Break, The Mexican, Conan the Barbarian

He also served as screenwriter on the animated sequels to Mulan, Lilo & Stitch, Emperor’s New Groove and 101 Dalmatians. An opportunity to serve as a creative consultant to Turner Entertainment took him home to Atlanta in 2007. He went onto work as a writer, director and executive producer with non-fiction production houses Encyclomedia, Shed Media, Crazy Legs Productions and Trailblazer Studios before launching his own production company, Lucky Dog Filmworks, which now serves as his home for creating film, television, and commercial content. In television, Michael has worked with Animal Planet, Cartoon Network, Travel Channel, History, Discovery, NBC, TBS, TLC, OWN, DIY, MSNBC, and A&E.

His new book Crash! Boom! Bang! How to Write Action Movies. 

A fun, insightful insider’s look at the nuts and bolts of writing action movies, from concept to completion, by a professional screenwriter and professor of screenwriting. Full of witty anecdotes from the front lines (and tricks of the trade from between the lines), Crash! Boom! Bang! promises an enjoyable and educational read for writers and students of all levels. Although bullets and bloodshed abound in cinema, the lessons within will benefit screenwriters of all kinds of movies.

Enjoy my conversation with Michael Lucker.

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Alex Ferrari 0:28
I like to welcome the show Michael Lucker. Man, thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Michael Lucker 2:48
Sure. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 2:50
So before we get into how to write an insane action movie, let's um, let's see, how do you how did you get into the business in the first place?

Michael Lucker 2:59
I started writing songs for girls I had crushes on in seventh grade that wouldn't give me the time today. And then I graduated writing for the school paper. And then I wrote a play in high school. And then I went off to college and studied writing in Boston. And people thought I was happy semantics. So I moved out to LA to try my hand at making my way on the wild world. And I landed a gig or two and I was unhappy with those. So I started typing. And that made me happy and I ended up getting one script in front of some agents and they got in front of some buyers and I got an option and then I got hired and then I got so and then I became a screenwriter. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
I'm actually a paid screenwriter which is a rarity. Like a functioning paid screenwriter in the industry. Which is funny you said that used to write songs I too dabbled in in songwriting for a the hearts of young ladies back when I was when I was younger,

Michael Lucker 4:04
and try and like you know, are my favorite. Unfortunately I

Alex Ferrari 4:07
also sung them and nobody will ever hear those

Michael Lucker 4:13
that's why I migrated over the screen

Alex Ferrari 4:15
but yeah, that's not that's not something that anyone will ever see. Because it's in my closet. Literally. But so your first movie if I'm not mistaken was vampire in Brooklyn, right? Or is that the first one that you sold?

Michael Lucker 4:27
First one it wasn't the first one got sold or I got hired to write but it was the first one that got me believe it.

Alex Ferrari 4:35
How many how many scripts that you get optioned or hired to do before that first

Michael Lucker 4:39
one? Probably five we've got a couple things going in Disney it's gonna be a couple things going to Paramount and universal. I think another thing or two and then we got this call on this one. It's kind of like took off.

Alex Ferrari 4:53
And if for people who not don't remember that vampire in Brooklyn start Eddie Murphy in in he was still Eddie Murphy. He's Always Eddie Murphy in my world, he's always Eddie Murphy. But he was at some of the height of his power back then. Because he made basically a vampire film, because he wanted to,

Michael Lucker 5:10
we could do whatever he wanted. I mean, he was one of my heroes growing up, I mean, 48 hours in Beverly Hills Cop religion to me, and so that for me to have a chance as a young man, as a young screenwriter, to write a movie, for one of my all time, favorites was just like a dream come true.

Alex Ferrari 5:27
I mean, coming to America, still arguably the greatest comedy of all time.

Michael Lucker 5:32
against that, but it's one of the at least Welcome to your opinion. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 5:39
So, so you wrote a book called Crash, boom, give us the title of the crash,

Michael Lucker 5:44
boom, crash, boom, bang, how to write action movies.

Alex Ferrari 5:47
Exactly. Now, how do you write action movies? Because you know what? Because action movies are. In today's world, action movies are pretty much prevalent in all of Hollywood studio system. I mean, they're basically action, superhero action, or Fast and Furious action. They're all they're all. They're all IP based, or franchise based. So having a skill set, as at writing a good action movie, is a good skill sets in the studio system, and also outside of the studio system, because action movies travel fairly well, internationally as well. So I know, it's a very broad question. So what are some tips on on how to write a good? And what makes Lisbeth what makes a good action movie? And then we can have a discussion about some good action movies.

Michael Lucker 6:35
Right? Well, I think, you know, little two questions go hand in hand. And what makes a good action movie and how you write a good action movie is based on the same tenants that that make good stories, no matter the genre, is one of the things that's often lost in a lot of the shallower you know, that bid, you know, action films that don't have much depth to the characters into their journeys. And so, when we're writing good stories of ATL, you go back to the hero's journey, and the principles that have been taught since Aristotle and seeing that rate of change and the hero, you know, fixing flaws they had the beginning and going through by going through the adversity that they face along the story to see, you know, how they transform and become, you know, stronger, wiser and more courageous, more humble, more soulful, at the end, what happens, I think, in a lot of action movies is those basic principles are lost, or they try to spread it so thin, especially in sort of films that have too many primary, you know, characters up top, they're trying to develop everybody, you don't get to get into anybody in much detail. And so we as the audience may not connect with them as deeply, or as honestly as we could, because the studio isn't trying to give a little something of everybody to everybody in the audience. So you know, when people say, How do you write a great action movie, and like, learn how to write a great movie, learn how to write a great story.

Alex Ferrari 8:11
So there's you and I see a you and I are from the same vintage, if you will, a July's. So we kind of grew up watching, it sounds like we both grew up watching a lot of the same great action movies of the day. So I mean, I personally think that the 80s and 90s but the 80s had a just is a golden age for action movies. You know, cuz 70s me you know, we got smoking a band and that kind of stuff. But they didn't come into it really into their own heavily into the 80s. So I want to talk about three movies and I want to hear what you think about them. I think they're three of their top five in my world. Diehard diehard obviously. Absolutely. Lethal Weapon, Lethal Weapon first one of my faves, and Predator. The first predator predator is your third. It's not like an order. I'm just saying that there's other action movies that I enjoy too. I mean, obviously Commando. Not joking. But I mean, I do love it for my cat. If I watched that movie today, I'm sure I'm gonna go, oh, this is horrible. But in my mind, it's still pretty awesome. But I could watch Die Hard. I watch it every year as a Christmas movie, because I did a whole episode on how it's the greatest Christmas movie of all time. Then there's lethal weapon, which I could still watch today. And it holds and you can watch predator. And it still holds. And at least for me, and I was wondering what you think about what like diehard we've talked about a nauseum. And we all know that's, you know, the his the hero's journey, the every man. I mean, what do you just really quickly what let's go over diehard real quick and what makes it such an amazing action

Michael Lucker 9:46
movie? Well, I'll say this, you're speaking my language really? Because it puts anything in perspective for you when I was a young man out of film school, coming from the East Coast and I landed in North Hollywood and I got my first job. In my little home law apartment, I had it, you know, off magnolia. I had two posters framed on my bedroom wall, and they were lethal. Largely because that was just part of, you know, the lexicon at the time. They kind of helped shape me as a young storyteller and filmmaker. When you got great writers like, you know, Jeff Stewart and Stephen Setzer and Shane Black, of course, and remains one of my favorites. They did things at the time, that revolution that revolution level, revolutionized, yeah, revolutionized Nike writer, the way storytelling was done. And they brought heart and soul and pain and flaws to the heroes in a way that a lot of traditional action movies had not done as much prior. And so we really identified connected with and cheered for those for you know, John McClane and Martin Riggs in ways that we had not done for heroes. Before that, so those movies I mean, to me, are quintessential and I encourage all writers who are interested in doing action movies to not only see those movies and study those movies, but read the scripts and look at how those writers crafted those images and created that tension and scenes and create that sort of identification, you know, for the audience and leader to have with those

Alex Ferrari 11:33
heroes. Yeah, Shane. Shane is Shane Black is arguably one of the greater he's in the top lexicon of, of screenwriters in general. But what he did and some of those early scripts usually you read the original last Boy Scout, not what was made but the original last Boy Scout. Long Kiss Good night. Lethal Weapon I think he didn't do lethal up into I think he did just a story of lethal weapon too. But every bone did. Yeah. But that was still also a great a great film as well. Lethal Weapon. He didn't write now he wrote the New predators. He didn't read the old predator. But but just was just watching his descriptions. Yeah, his This is his vocabulary was so and he breaks rules, he breaks rules left and right, you know, the way he writes the description how he does it. It's just like when Tarantino you know, when he writes his dialogue, he just breaks, he breaks rules all the time. But they're masters, they're absolute masters. And they you have to you have to read those scripts.

Michael Lucker 12:33
Yeah, you really do. Because like seeing the movies is one thing to working on screen. But you know, given you know, the quantity of scripts that consumed in the studio, every year, the scripts that rise to the top, really have to stand on their own, in order to stand out. And that means the words they use, you know, the images they convey as concisely and as creatively as they do, puts you in that moment puts you in that place that you really feel like you are, you know, in that car chase, or you know, scaling down that mountain or being thrown out that window.

Alex Ferrari 13:12
No question and like when I watch Lethal Weapon, because that was during my video store days, when I worked at a video store. I must have watched Lethal Weapon like 2030 times it was just such a the character of rigs, his transformation to the end if you just didn't see that, that was just something that wasn't done in action movies. It was so revolutionary and I mean diehard took that to another place, as well, both of them in their own way. But you're right, it was just you felt for so before you would have like you would have Schwarzenegger show up and write you know Schwarzenegger and Stallone, they would just be these hyper real Gods basically that could do no wrong and they could, you know, shoot guns until the cows come home and they never get hurt. I got dinged and I just keep going don't have time to bleed and, and all that kind of stuff up. But then you got something like diehard where John McLean's character is, he's a normal dude, going through normal stuff, and he doesn't look like an Adonis. And you got Martin Riggs, who also doesn't look like an Adonis and he's a very fractured character as a human being. He's on literally on these on the edge. Good. Well, one of

Michael Lucker 14:27
the things that I think Shane Black did and they do a die hard as well is the transformation of the hero is represented in such a clear and subtle and powerful way. That whether we're conscious of that as an audience member or unconscious of it, we feel it and so for example, and lethal weapon you might remember when we meet Martin Riggs, he's got a special Silver Bullet loaded in his gun and he's got it in his mouth, not ready to take his own life over the green Think deals over the loss of his wife, right? So, that's the opening shot of our hero. And for us to see that in the 80s it's like, this is our hero, a guy who's like living, you know, in a trailer alone on the beach with a gun in his mouth. What happens to the course the movie is he grows and we build a self esteem and re and finds a new sense of purpose as through his job and through saving my dog and his family, and ultimately, others. And by the end of the movie, and this is what makes like Shane Black's writing so powerful. The last scene of the movie, if you remember his rig, walking up the Murdochs house, and given him that same silver bullet that he was gonna use to take his own life as a Christmas present when he came for Christmas dinner. And it was he goes, it's a bullet and rigs last line of the movie is Yeah, I don't need it anymore.

Alex Ferrari 15:56
Oh, it's just, it's just so good. And the music, okay, those little things

Michael Lucker 16:00
that we try and teach and talk about in, in, you know, in academics, you know, setting or, you know, in lecture or seminars, is the kind of stuff that really makes I think movies resonate with audiences on a wide scale.

Alex Ferrari 16:21
And I think another movie that it's not often thrown in that list, but should be in my opinion, is the original Robocop.

Michael Lucker 16:29
I completely agree.

Alex Ferrari 16:30
It's such a good movie. And at the end, on the surface, it's just a good action movie. But if you go back into layers of onions, and what Verhoeven and the writer are trying to talk about, in that film, oh, it's so

Michael Lucker 16:46
good. One minor was the writer of that. Yeah, and you'll be happy to know that diehard Lethal Weapon and Robocop are all three of the movies I talk about in my book.

Alex Ferrari 16:57
Yeah. As you should, sir. As as you as you should, sir. So alright, so with every good hero, there has to be a good villain. And in so many action movies, the villains are horrible. They're just bad. They're one dimensional. They're paper. They're twisting the moustache kind of heroes. But in but in, Let's just analyze those three movies, Robocop, Lethal Weapon and diehard? The villains are almost as memorable, if not more memorable, sometimes than the hero itself or on par. So with diehard pawns, everyone I mean, you can't think of McLean without thinking of Hons you can't think of Mr. Joshua. The, the great Gary Busey. Right, when he was great, um, what he was great. Um, and then and Robocop, the, the corporate, the corporate CEO?

Michael Lucker 17:52
Yeah, there was just so evil. We often say in screenwriting, right, that, that the hero can only be as powerful and strong and their, their victory can only be as rewarding as the opponent's merit. So if you have an unfavorable villain, then it's not going to mean too much for you know, Luke Skywalker to take, you know, out, you know, some, you know, that mushy little dude with his lightsaber, but when Darth Vader is a formidable bad guy, then there's something to happen there. So you need in good stories, right? Whether it's a love story and drama or comedy, you need a formidable opponent, in order for the audience to invest in and feel victory when the hero defeats them. Right? South so that's one thing about being powerful opponents. The other thing to consider is that just as good heroes have strengths and weaknesses and have their skills and also have their their flaws. So to should good opponents. And that's one of the things that happens in all those movies is they're not the totally, you know, mustache, you know, black hat wearing, you know, one note villains, they might be doing horrible things, but they have their own justification for doing them. Or sometimes they started on a path that led to things beyond way that they ever expected. So the trick is to find a balance between that formative ability, right, and also that human aspect. And even in something like predator, it's what makes that movie resonate with audience because when Schwarzenegger finally has the predator down, you know, and he has them, you see the humanity really, in the monster. And and that's the moment where your hero Schwarzenegger has to make the more choice whether he's going to put a spike through the guy's face, you know or not. Are we going to arrive above, you know, the lowness that the elite.

Alex Ferrari 20:04
So there's two movies that come to mind because I think you're right. I absolutely think you're right. In regards to having a great you have to have a great feeling to have a good hero it without one or the other. It doesn't work. It's the yin and the yang. But then there's movies like Bloodsport, which, again, in my mind, fantastic. I, if I watched it today, we'll probably tear it apart. But if I remember correctly, the villain wasn't particularly a deep villain, but he was physically a threat. And that's why that fight at the end, and the whole journey is weak as the story might have been in that movie. That's why, you know, it was just such a massive man. And they built them up so much that it made it made that fight at the end or the whole journey up into that fight, work. To a certain extent, again, I know Bloodsport shouldn't even be in the same conversation as the movies we've been talking about. But just I just want the audience understand the physicality now. Physicality does count for something like Darth Vader's, like, six, seven. So he's also a very large, large man. But then you look at a movie like commando which again, which is not a great film. And I think one of the reasons it's not, there's many reasons why it's not great. It is great in my mind, but not great in traditional lines, is the villain. He looked like a pipsqueak next to Arnold, do you remember that? I even as a kid, I'm like, that's not a challenge for art, like Arnold could take that guy in a fight. But when we get to predator, that's a whole other conversation. And, and the predator is not a deep character. He's a very one dimensional character who does not change throughout the entire process of the film. But his abilities are what are formidable to an entire elite crew that make that movie work. I would love to just, you know, hear your thoughts on it.

Michael Lucker 21:56
Sure. Well, I think that those movies that you mentioned the BloodSport and the commando and the Predator, they don't have sort of the depth and humanity and, and sort of, you know, dexterity of some of the other villains that we talked about in the really good movies. And I think that's a sort of juxtaposition to see, you know, in the good movies that are remembered. Right, become iconic, you know, there are great heroes who are saddled, you know, in extraordinary situations against formable villains with death. And when you don't have that, then no matter how cool sexy smart and creative your hero is, it doesn't really carry as much, much weight

Alex Ferrari 22:42
so you're telling me that splits aren't gonna make it the story better? Not like Yeah, yeah, I still I still try to do it and it doesn't work. I don't know how John cloud does it. I mean, he made an entire career off that damn split. I remember that every movie cuz that was a huge I mean, I was a kid so when he was those movies were coming out every movie did work a split it somewhere like in the weirdest place.

Michael Lucker 23:11
But I just I saw Mission Impossible to was on TV last night. And I love Mission Impossible, and I'm a big Tom Cruise fan. But Tom Cruise was doing his quintessential sprint.

Alex Ferrari 23:25
Videos. He just running.

Michael Lucker 23:27
I think it's in his contract, he must run at least 100 yards at full tilt in every movie. That's something that studios have identified you know, in and films. You know, we want to make audiences want to see Brad Pitt take your shirt off, and audiences want to see you know, Tom Cruise began. So I think the Sprint's and the splits will both contractual promises.

Alex Ferrari 23:54
And Tom is one of those units, Thomas, you know, talking about these old action movies. I mean, these were, these were movie stars. You know, these guys were movie stars. And nowadays, there aren't as many movie stars anymore. The movie star power is gone. Where before a commando would be made purely on the on the strength of Arnold. A movie like that would never be made without movie star power behind it. Even today's well, we'll talk about today's world in a second,

Michael Lucker 24:22
I think. I mean, you're bringing it up. So I think I think it's a combination of the nature of the marketplace, right? Because of proliferation of digital media and the fact that anybody can sit on their couch, you know, in their den and turn on 1000 channels, you know, have that at their beck and call and watch whatever they want. It needs to be something special, to get them off the couch, to come into a dark theater to sit with strangers to pay 15 bucks off to get in the door, let alone 10 bucks for popcorn. So, in order to do that, it needs to be a big spectacle. And big spectacles cost money, and you got to have a big movie star in those spectacles for the, you know, justify the expense.

Alex Ferrari 25:09
But would you agree, though, that that Chris Evans isn't a movie star, but Captain America is?

Michael Lucker 25:17
I think that's a great example because I saw Chris Evans an action movie before he was known.

Alex Ferrari 25:24
Yeah, he's a he's a good actor. And he's done a bunch of stuff, good actor, and he's got a bunch of stuff.

Michael Lucker 25:29
And then I remember this Captain America movie came out. And I was like, Who's this guy? Who's gonna go watch this guy do anything? And, and I think he's fantastic in the role. Oh, but, but he and he's a great actor. But you're right, there is a difference between between being a great actor and being a movie star. And some of those things are, you know, energetic, and soulful and undescribable. You know, some people just have it. And some people as talented as they are, just may not.

Alex Ferrari 26:03
And also, and also, the other thing is that, and I think this is important for screenwriters listening, is that a lot of times I think if I could just get like my screenplay to Chris Evans, and I'm not picking on Chris, but basically, I just, if I could get it to Chris Evans, or I can get it to Daniel Craig, or if I can get it to, you know, one of those characters, or one of those actors who play those big roles, either James Bond or spider man or something like that. They don't have outside to suit outside the character. They don't have the marketability. They're good. They're huge stars. But you look at Robert Downey. He just came out with Dr. Doolittle. And it tanked and right and Robert and Robert Downey Jr. is probably one of the most famous actors in the world. He's one of the most talented actors of his generation. He's, he's amazing. But yet, doctors did not drive sales to Dr. Doolittle. The only thing outside of Marvel that's had any sort of success is the Sherlock Holmes movies. And that's a one off, so he hasn't been able to like, unlike Arnold or Stallone that he would they would just pump out. Because they were movie stars in an age of movie stars, where I think the age of movie stars is kind of over for the most part, there are certain like, the rock is the closest thing I think we have. Yeah, and even then, if he's not the right movie, you put you put the rock in a drama, it's not gonna work.

Michael Lucker 27:22
Right? Well, it's it's a good point, I think that, you know, times are changing. And it's one thing to remember is that, you know, you said there are no movie stars now, or they're not what they once were. And I would just qualify that by saying, maybe there's not as many as there were, and there's not as many right now. But it doesn't mean the landscape is going to change, because even though we're in the wild west with 1000, channels and digital platforms, things continue to evolve. Oh, yeah. Filmmakers, and brilliant studio bosses are continually trying to ride those waves and oftentimes surprised by by what they find. So I think, you know, we are in the middle of sort of a renaissance of sorts, where things are changing, and everybody's trying to figure it out.

Alex Ferrari 28:11
Nobody knows anything. Every I mean, no, like, everyone's on Tata. Exact, nobody knows nothing. And but I think I think that Disney is probably one of the only companies out there who really got it early on, they're like, you know, what's going to come? IP, we need to buy as much IP as we can. And that's what they did. And now they just made what I think it was 10 billion gross this year at the box office. So they basically were out of every, you know, I mean, they just don't have 567 movies that broke a billion dollars. They figured something out where I think the rest of the studios are trying to try to find like, you know, Harry Potter's gone. They can't unless until they reboot it, you know, Fast and Furious only has how many

Michael Lucker 28:54
things you have to credit them for having the vision for thought, you know, of Iger and the rest of them? No, yeah, Eisenhower days, you know, he built he started it is they all recognize the power of you know, owning you know, property that not only would reach audiences going forward and masses, but also had reach audience and mass prior to that. And they were willing to spend a few extra bucks and outbid others in order to hold on to that thing, knowing that they can take a Star Wars in turn out a Mandalorian and solo and everything else out of the brain that they own. Because, as we all know, as writers, studios own it, they get to do whatever they want with it,

Alex Ferrari 29:43
for better or for worse. Better or For Worse. Now, that brings up a good point as writers, you know, as screenwriters coming up in the world, because I know when you started, and when I started was a completely different landscape, completely different way of doing business. There was much Less competition, even though it was still a brutal time as far as competition, but now there's there's a lot more opportunity, but there's a lot more competition. Where do you think a screenwriter should focus on if they're going to write an action movie? It because I know a lot of international write these giant tentpole action movies and that are not based on IP, there are originals. And I'm like, Dude, if you want it as a, as a as a writing sample, fantastic. But the chances of the studio putting $100 million or plus, in a non IP action movie is gonna be different unless you're James Cameron, and you come up with avatar, and that's a different conversation. But where do you think they should focus? Should they show focus on the lower budget action movies, which there's still a lot of, you know, 15 20 million and below kind of things that are done for International, the Nicolas Cage movies, the you know, those kind of films that still have a marketplace? for them? It's a little bit easier to get into? I'm just curious, where your where you stand on that, do you think we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show?

Michael Lucker 31:10
Well, I think you're right, that the, the expansion of opportunities based on you know, the, the elevation and technology is granted more chances for more writers to do more things. Same time, the money may not be as much as it was, but there may be more opportunity. So, you know, all my writer friends I know are writing everything they can, you know, and that means they're writing features, and they're writing and television, and they might be writing, you know, commercial copy as well, because they're writers and they love to write, and it's part of their soul. And that's why people should write is to tell good stories, and, and help you know, change the world, ideally, make it a better place, you know, and lift, lift spirits, and you know, warm hearts and all those things. And if you get into the writing business, for the wrong reasons, because you make a million dollars, or you're trying to prove their high school principal that you could amount to something one day or, you know, prove to the girlfriend that jaded you and elementary school, then then you're doing it for the wrong reason, it's gonna be a long, rocky road. So I think the bottom line is write everything you can and do it because you know, you love it and kind of let the universe sort of support you in that path. Because it's hard to control things once they leave the theater.

Alex Ferrari 32:46
Preach My friend preach. Now, I've heard many times before from other screenwriting gurus or people that are in the screenwriting, educational space, and also from screenwriters in general, that studios looked for a certain amount of action sequences, spread out through your seats as you could literally count them like there's an action sequence, eight minutes later, another action eight minutes later, or 10 minutes later, in your experience. What's your school of thought on that?

Michael Lucker 33:16
Well, it's interesting. It's a great question. You know, we all kind of understand an inherent three act structure, right? And Joel Silver producer of lethal weapon diehard incidentally, came along with what I believe he termed the the whammo chart, and it was like something significant needs to happen that surprises the audience every 10 pages. So if you're looking at a two hour movie or at 120 pages, you're looking at basically 11 significant surprises along the way. So you can kind of extrapolate that in some ways, and apply it to content of any length. But at the same time, you got to remember that you know, audiences today are different from audiences that you know, grew up on Lethal Weapon and I are like you and I did right and they're used to not only seeing things much faster, but they're also used to watching three or four screens at the same time. You he almost needed I think, in some ways increase the quantity of surprises as long as they're germane to the story and organic to character so that you are keeping you know, the a DD and ADHD, you know, generation from changing the channel when they're sitting at home on their couch, or from getting up and going for gummy bear to the theater and not coming back.

Alex Ferrari 34:37
Do you remember the indie movie Run Lola Run?

Michael Lucker 34:41
I know of it. I don't remember the movie The movie itself.

Alex Ferrari 34:43
I remember that. It was literally non stop tension or action the entire like it was just like, yeah, just it didn't stop. And I found it exhausting. Like so. This dangerous.

Michael Lucker 34:56
It is dangerous. And I learned that lesson the hard way. I was at a pitch at DreamWorks with Jeffrey Katzenberg and I was pitching to him an action movie. And I remember saying something along ridiculous along the lines of, you know, it's going to be nonstop action. It's going to be, you know, one of the, it's going to be a fantastic action movie. And a very simply and bluntly as he's known to do, because Michael, you, it can't be all action. I was like, why it's an action movie, come on, it'll be great. He's like, No, you have to have those roles, those moments of reflection, those moments of recovery, you know, in order for there to be a little bit of juxtaposition and diversity in terms of the story flow, and in terms of the audience's journey. And if you don't have those things, not only a chance for the hero to rest, and recover and reflect the triumph of the audience, too, then you're really missing out on the opportunity to surprise number elevate them, you know, on the roller coaster ride have ups and downs, on the next turn.

Alex Ferrari 35:58
That's why the roller coaster is not all the way up for a mile and then all the way down for a mile. That's why there's ups and downs. Because if not, you couldn't handle it. And the same thing goes for like tension. Like if you watch a Hitchcock film, he's such a master at it. And you just you just play the audience like like a fiddle, and he'd go up and he'd go down, and he goes up. But if you hold it too long, you hold that note too long, just like in a song, you're gonna lose the audience.

Michael Lucker 36:23
The interesting thing about a Hitchcock that always really impressed me was how he not only would he managed tension, but he would manage the audience's allegiance with characters. Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 36:35
cheering for

Michael Lucker 36:36
the hero for eight minutes. And then we'll go through a door and we'll be on the other side of the door with the villain stuck in a situation. And we'll be rooting for the villain waiting for him to you know, I worried about him getting caught by the cops that we were just cheering for a minute ago. And he would take our emotions and put them back and forth. Like nobody had ever seen sense.

Alex Ferrari 36:58
Yeah, I mean, and let's not even get into psycho. I mean, killing off. I mean, sorry, spoiler alert, everyone killing off the main movie star in the first act just like what can you imagine in 1960? Doing that, like it's all new? Yeah, it was insane.

Michael Lucker 37:16
I think it's one of the things that made gameofthrones so successful until the end, was that

Alex Ferrari 37:22
until the end, we never knew

Michael Lucker 37:25
whose head was going to get chopped off. Right? Or what other body part might get chopped off? You know, we were always surprised. They kept us you know, Benioff. And Weiss kept us on the edge of our seats. You know, every every night we tuned in.

Alex Ferrari 37:39
Did you? Are you a fan of Walking Dead?

Michael Lucker 37:44
No, is the quick answer to it. So, you know, I live in Atlanta now. Right. And so it is a part of, you know, the Atlanta culture. And certainly with the proliferation of film production in Georgia now, Walking Dead A Vampire Diaries are two of the series in recent years, that help Stan as a healthy foundation to build much of this, you know, production

Unknown Speaker 38:10
infrastructure.

Michael Lucker 38:12
So it's big worldwide, I think it's recognized as being one of the if not the most successful television show in history, right, broadcast or otherwise. And I was just never a big fan of zombies. And people will come to me, it's all about the characters it is. And I get it. And I've seen a few episodes, but this was never my jam. And when guys would come, you know, merging out of the shadows, you know, with their faces peeling off and your eyes falling out, you know, the same goal of eating our hero eye. It just didn't grab it didn't grab me, you know, where it grabs many other people. It just goes to show you can't please all people all the time, you have to tell the story to the best you can for you know, the market you hope to achieve? Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 39:06
I mean, I was a fan of that show for probably about five or six seasons. But then there was a major there's a main character that a villain that came in and they he just kept beating are the characters I've loved so much that June, there was no break. So the villain Deegan was just he was just it was just like a punch. But normally when you have a villain that's like that powerful. You got to get a couple licks in. But they just kept beating it to the point where I just got tired of watching my characters that I'd fallen in love with get beaten so much. I'm like, I'm out. I can't, I just can't deal with this anymore. And it turned me off personally. And the ratings did eventually go down. I think they had been going down a little bit. It's still super popular. But that was that was a mistake that I saw. I was like, I can never do that with a character of mine. Where if you have a Imagine if Darth Vader never He just kept pounding on Luke to the point where Luke just couldn't ever get up. What's the point? What's the The point,

Michael Lucker 40:01
yeah, well, you're right, we don't want to see that we're investing in those characters. And if it makes you feel any better I, you know, I'm teaching Screenwriting at university here. And I often take a temperature read on, on what's happening in culture and the zeitgeist based on my 1920 21 year old, you know, students in the program, and when I had them watch Walking Dead A couple weeks ago, talking about how, you know, film production and television production is, you know, increased in the state. And I asked them why they lost interest. And they said the exact same thing, really, characters, because somebody identify with this character or identify with that character. And in general, the answer was, because they kept killing off the people that we love. So if you're doing that, and to Game of Thrones credit, what they did do was if they killed off somebody, were bringing in somebody new bringing somebody new, bring somebody new, and so that there's constantly rebirth. Wow, there was death.

Alex Ferrari 41:06
Yeah, and that was one of the big problems like I with walking dead in generals like they would kill off it. I mean, that was kind of the exciting thing that you never knew who there was no one safe, really, except for maybe a couple of top guys. Uh, you know, they're not gonna kill off. And you'll be like, No, is this the week? No, don't don't ah, why did you get rid of them. And that's always a rough, it's a rough situation. And even though they brought new guys, but then they would kill them off. It was just like, emotionally, it's, it's a bit much.

Michael Lucker 41:33
I wonder if, in the old days before social media allowed everybody to vent and talk about everything that was happening, if that was a more insular experience, and, and also a more secretive experience. Now, if somebody dies in an episode, everybody's gonna know about it within 90 seconds of it happening, because it's all over social media. And so for those who haven't seen it, yet, it's ruining the surprise of the filmmakers or show creators have worked so hard to create, oftentimes, over many episodes, or even many seasons.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
Yeah, and it's it's a it's, it's look at storytelling in general, from the times, when we were coming up to now, the audience is so much more savvy, so much more educated. They understand terminology, like plot points, like the hero's journey, like the you know, the point of no return. These are things that a lot of audience members, even if they might not know, the articulation of it, they can recognize it. Because they've been like, there's generations, we've just been raised like I was a TV guy, I'm sure you weren't, we watch TVs and movies, constantly growing up vs. VHS came up. And that was the first time we could just watch anything and everything all the time. But now take that and put it on steroids. And, and now it's everything's instant ever made. It's

Michael Lucker 42:55
just to do now with storytellers, what I encourage my students to do is to take the sort of paradigms that we're used to, that they're used to, and manipulate it in freshing ways. And I think it's one of the reasons, you know, Christopher Nolan's work has such popularity is because He's twisting and turning at such a rate and surprising us in such a way nowadays, that even though you do know about plot points, and character arcs, are seeing those things turned on their ear. And that is refreshing. And that is exciting. Same thing

Alex Ferrari 43:33
with Terran. Tinos work like you, there's certain but the guys you're talking, just putting those two in the same sentence like they're their absolute masters,

Michael Lucker 43:42
right. And this is part of what I preach to is their masters because they understand the foundations of the genre and foundations of the medium, first and foremost, those things better than anybody, which allows them the healthy footing to take it and mix it all up and doing the whole new way.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
Yeah, it's, but you need you're right. It's kind of like being a master baker, and you know, every element of the ingredients and what those ingredients can do. And now I'm going to I'm going to do something that you've never seen before, but I understand if you need me to make a chocolate cake, I'll make your chocolate cake. It's gonna blow your mind. Right, but my chocolate cake now it's gonna explode and you're gonna love it. All. Right, well, yeah, and just like Avocado Chocolate cake. What? And then you taste it. Like how have I not thought of this before? And that's like watching a terrorist, you know, and move it. And one thing you talk about in your book, sneaky transitions. Can you can you elaborate about that a little bit?

Michael Lucker 44:45
Sure. So speaking of all action movies, you remember Highlander? Off course, it shouldn't be only one

Alex Ferrari 44:53
right? It should be it actually. I wouldn't mind a reboot of that. I would love to see like

Michael Lucker 44:58
a good one. Yeah, that would be a good reboot. Yeah, so one of the things that I loved about that movie is that the transitions, were so clever and subtle, taking us not only from one scene to the next, but oftentimes from one time period to another time period. And it made the storytelling, creed, creative, and effortless. And those transitions were part of the story. So it wasn't like a jarring departure, a jarring transition, when when those transitions can be part of the story and help push storyboard or help reveal character some way or help elevate, you know, the overall theme of the story. That's when I think movies are working on all cylinders, because not only is character writing stories, right, and actions, right, but also, going from one scene to the next just keeps us on an even keel moving without stopping to realize that we're actually in a movie. And that's something that drives me crazy and movies, is that when we get pushed and pulled out of the film, it's it removes us from sort of the emotional connection we have with a hero. My students love Deadpool, and I can appreciate the masterful Olmec and the incredibly brilliant acting and the little, you know, dialogue, I admire all that. But I'm constantly being pulled out of that story. Because of its meta this and reminds me I'm watching a story. And so I am partially because I grew up on, you know, older films. So I don't want people to keep jumping in and reminding me that, you know, we're watching a movie, I want to be lost in it, and feeling it, you know, and I think smooth transitions allow us to do that.

Alex Ferrari 46:56
And of course, the soundtrack of Queen I mean, that also helped that movie.

Michael Lucker 47:02
Rhapsody

Alex Ferrari 47:05
was so amazing. That's such a it's such a great film. Um, now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Michael Lucker 47:18
We've already been hitting this a little bit, but learn the craft. I mean, a lot of people have great ideas, and they crank them out on cocktail napkins or paper towels. Right. But taking them from great ideas to write screenplays takes an understanding of the way movies are woven in the way stories are told. And so whether it's taking seminars, taking workshops, taking classes, reading scripts, watching movies, all those things are going to help educate you in a way for you to develop your own style. I think a lot of students you know, and you know, workshop attendees, or potential students and you know, attendees have reservations, thinking that understanding the way what they turn formula or template or structure is going to impede their creative process. And I say does not help you. So I think that is the first thing. And also knowing that, like, if you write a great script, I think and you get it in the hands of people that recognize great scripts, the universe is going to conspire to support you. Right. So it's like, you don't have to figure out you know, everything. But the hardest thing to figure out is how to write great screenplays. And I've had a number of students over the years, in workshops or otherwise, that when they wrote great scripts, they consistently would win a Screencraft Festival, and slam dance and Nashville and Austin and Atlanta, because those independent festival panels of judges, but we're looking at great screenplays that we're looking at 800 here 1200 They're 2000. They're all recognize that great writing. So really, the key is write a great script, and then get it into the hands of people that recognize great scripts.

Alex Ferrari 49:14
Excellent advisor. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Michael Lucker 49:23
The answer to both is the same and it's listen better? Yes, you know, I think, you know, oftentimes, you know, we writers are communicators and we are expressive and we are when given the opportunity or not given the opportunity. We want to impose our opinions, our values, our beliefs, our thoughts, and you know, I'm as a teacher in me that wants to help teach, right, so you're constantly expressing what the problem is, if you're constantly you know, Gabin then there's no room for you to really learn the ninth grade, you know, Zen teaching that something along the lines of You know, the this the speed, the the wise, our silence, basically, and those who are unwise other talkers. So I think the more you can listen to feedback you're given from those you're working with in a creative setting. And those in your personal lives as well, I think it will help make you a better writer, and

Alex Ferrari 50:39
what is the biggest fear you had to overcome when you was writing your first script?

Michael Lucker 50:46
Wow, the biggest fear, oh, I remember, it probably wasn't the first script, it was the second script. But I was so caught up in trying to dunk the double cross and triple cross and quadruple cross the audience to make it the coolest, clever attorney clever, and that I could, that I got so lost in it, that I couldn't find my way out of it. It's because I didn't have a foundational understanding of time, I learned a lot doing it. But because I was so caught up in the maelstrom and a storm of all those double crosses, I literally couldn't, you know, find a clear road to finishing. It took me a long time. Like, you know, contractually, now as writers with a W GA, if we're hired to write an original screenplay, we get 12 weeks and we have to deliver in 12 weeks. You don't get six months, or eight months or two years, you know. And so and that can happen if you don't have a clear roadmap. And that's where I'm clear understanding of storytelling and structure helps. Because you don't get lost, you don't get stuck.

Alex Ferrari 51:59
And three of your favorite films of all time. Wow,

Unknown Speaker 52:03
we talked about two

Alex Ferrari 52:04
of them. Okay, so diehard, Lethal Weapon and Die Hard,

Michael Lucker 52:07
good, definitely up there on all time. You know, and I gotta say the one movie that was the movie that led me to realize as a young punk that I wanted to become a filmmaker was the writers the last are so good. So when I was a young man, Atlanta, Georgia, and Atlanta, Georgia, I stumbled out of the theater. And I remember looking up at the stars, after the movie thinking that's what I want to do with my life. And when I was 21, and I landed in Los Angeles as a young man, you know, my first year out of film school. The job I landed was working for Steven Spielberg, on Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade became full circle in a ways that in a way that you know, a few people have the good fortune of

Alex Ferrari 53:00
well, we'll have to do another episode on The Last Crusade adventures because I'd love to know how that was that set?

Michael Lucker 53:07
Let's like Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 53:09
Now where can people find you and your book and everything about what you're doing?

Michael Lucker 53:14
Sure. So my book crash boom, bang had right action movies is available in Barnes and Noble if there's any of those left and on Amazon, and my publishers website, which is W. M. wp.com. And it screenwriting workshops, usually housed at Emory University in Atlanta a few times a year. And that's screenwriter school comm. And they can follow us for tidbits, and tricks on screenwriting on Facebook, and they can email me anytime if they wish at Michael at screenwriter school.com.

Alex Ferrari 53:53
Be careful what you wish for Jim, I get a couple emails. So Michael, thank you so much for coming on man and then dropping the knowledge bombs on the on the drive today. So thank you again,

Michael Lucker 54:04
man. Thank you very enjoyed it very much.

Alex Ferrari 54:08
I want to thank Michael so much for being on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe. I am a big fan of action movies, obviously. Again, like we said in the show, I don't I don't want to watch commando again. Because in my mind, it's perfect. Some films age better than others. But I hope you got something out of this episode. Thank you so much. If you want to get a link to anything we talked about in this episode, please head over the show notes at Indie film hustle.com, forward slash BPS 064. And guys, if you have a screenplay and you want to get some real feedback from a professional script writer in Hollywood, please head over to cover my screenplay calm, which is the bulletproof script coverage service that we run. And unlike other script consultancies, we provide coverage based on the type of screenplay It is and work with a pool of readers who have experience in each of the categories who give you notes that focus on the specifics of the goals of your screenplay or project, which are micro budget, indie film market and studio film. Just go to cover my screenplay.com and submit your screenplay there. And also guys, please forgive me that I did not release an episode last week. I know you guys were due, but I was sick as a dog. I was knocked out pretty much the entire week, not with Coronavirus, just a normal flu. But I'm back. You could still hear it in my voice a little bit. But I just want to let you guys know so I do the best I can also for everybody in the tribe, but sometimes even the hustle gets knocked down. Thanks again for listening guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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BPS 063: My Script Can Beat Up Your Screenplay with Jeffrey Alan Schechter

Today on the show we have million-dollar spec screenplay writer, director, showrunner, and author Jeffrey Alan Schechter. Jeff has been beating up stories for over twenty years. He is a WGA, WGC, Emmy, and BAFTA-nominated writer, a Gemini award-winning producer, director, and a million-dollar spec screenplay writer.

Jeff’s first credits were in action films such as BLOODSPORT II, THE TOWER, and STREETKNIGHT. Turning to his love of family films, Jeff sold his spec screenplay LITTLE BIGFOOT to Working Title Films and then did a rewrite on THE AMAZING PANDA ADVENTURE for Warner Brothers which led to him working on DENNIS THE MENACE STRIKES AGAIN.

Jeff followed this with another rewrite, this time for Warner Brothers’ IT TAKES TWO. Following this, Jeff’s spec screenplay STANLEY’S CUP was bought by Walt Disney Pictures in a deal worth over a million dollars.

Jeff next rewrote I’LL BE HOME FOR CHRISTMAS for the Walt Disney Company and wrote the TV movie BRINK! For the Disney Channel and for which he was nominated for the Writer’s Guild of America Award for Outstanding Television writing. Jeff also wrote THE OTHER ME for the Disney Channel as well as BEETHOVEN’S 3RD for Universal Studios.

In television, Jeff has written and executive story edited dozens of episodes for series such as THE FAMOUS JETT JACKSON, ANIMORPHS, MARTIN MYSTERY, TOTALLY SPIES, TEAM GALAXY, GET ED, FREEFONIX, DI-GATA DEFENDERS, HOT WHEELS BATTLE FORCE 5, and JANE AND THE DRAGON. He’s written both DTV productions for the Care Bears; JOURNEY TO JOKE-A-LOT and THE BIG WISH MOVIE, the latter for which he was nominated for a 2005 Writer’s Guild of Canada Award.

Jeff was an executive story editor and director on the Hit Discovery Kids/NBC series STRANGE DAYS AT BLAKE HOLSEY HIGH (aka BLACK HOLE HIGH) for which his work was nominated for two Emmy Awards for Outstanding Writing as well as a BAFTA Award for Best International Series.  Most recently, Jeff created and was the showrunner of the sci-fi procedural drama Stitchersfor Freeform which ran for three seasons and which took place in the proverbial ten minutes in the future.

In publishing, Jeff is a co-founder of the award-winning ebook publisher PadWorx Digital Media, and his book My Story Can Beat Up Your Story: Ten Ways to Toughen Up Your Screenplay from Opening Hook to Knockout Punch was published by Michael Wiese Books. Jeff is hip-deep in several other screenplays, television series, book projects, and software ventures. In his spare time, he’s married and has 4 kids.

Enjoy my conversation with Jeffrey Alan Schechter.

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Alex Ferrari 0:52
I'd like to welcome the show Jeff Schecter, man, how you doing my friend?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 3:58
I'm great. It's so good to talk to you. Yeah, man.

Alex Ferrari 4:01
It's been we've been playing even Skype tag for quite some time. So I do

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 4:07
well, it's apparently between the two of us. You're the busy one. I'm sitting here like like this for months going. When's Alex gonna call? Yes, I'm

sure that's exactly Schecter.

Alex Ferrari 4:20
Obviously, that's what I picture all my guests do it. No, I'm joking. No, but when, when we when we logged on to Skype, you know, we're like, you know, brothers from another mother because you've got all this amazing geek stuff in the background for people listening. He's got Star Wars statues and Marvel statues everywhere. And it's just, it's, it's nice. It's nice to see, to see that as well. So, before we get into, how did you get into the business, um,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 4:48
it was kind of one of those things where I always knew I wanted to be a writer. I mean, I made which was really, I mean, you know, I've got four adult kids and they both asked me like, when did I What I wanted to do because, you know, they're on various phases of the summer figured out exactly what they want to do some haven't. And it's like, I don't know, it's I don't remember a time when I didn't want to be a writer and didn't want to write for television. And you know, so it was sort of just like everything I did. Starting even in junior high school. Going into high school, I was writing stuff, I was writing my own plays, I was directing them I was making short movies, you know, with my friends in the in Brooklyn, and and then ultimately came time to go to college. I just knew I was going to go to film school I applied to State University of New York College at purchase. So SUNY Purchase. were, you know, had back then I was late 70s. You know, they're the people who came out of purchase were people like Stanley Tucci and being rains was nice was there for a while, you know, in the acting world. They're acting I think Hal Hartley came out of SUNY Purchase, Charles lane. Parker Posey was there. So you know, there was a sort of an up and coming kind of vibe to the school, and just went through film school there, got out had a great mentor at school who helped get me into into editing. And so I worked in editing for a couple years in New York while still writing screenplays and then just moved to LA I read them. I mean, Goldman's book adventures, a screen trade, great book, right? It's a great book. It's any anyway, he had a chapter. He, you know, the, the early parts of the book, before we started talking about his specific movies, the early parts of the book, how chapters are broken up, like, you know, producers, directors, actors, right, you know, and then as the chapter is called, you know, LA, and the chapter begins, and I'm paraphrasing in perfectly, but something like, I find Los Angeles to be a dangerous and potentially very harmful place in which to live. And I suggest that anyone seriously considering a career as a screenwriter move there as soon as possible.

Alex Ferrari 7:06
2023 or

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 7:08
24 year old me reads that and like, okay,

Alex Ferrari 7:11
where's my ticket? Where's my ticket? Yeah.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 7:14
Then everything add into a Buick lesabre and drove cross country.

Alex Ferrari 7:18
Before I got before I got here. I've been here about 12 years and and I lived on the East Coast as well. And friends here, we're like, the only thing you'll ever regret about moving to LA is you didn't do it sooner. And it's it's it's true. Once I got here, I completely understood what they were saying.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 7:33
It's industry town. You know, it's like the whole town

Alex Ferrari 7:35
was built. Like I always say, you could take the film industry out of New York and New York, still New York, you take the film industry out of LA. I just not the whole infrastructure is built around the industry. Right?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 7:47
Yeah, for sure. For sure. That's how you want to go if you want to go into auto manufacturing probably still have to go to Detroit. You know, right. If you're

Alex Ferrari 7:55
if you're if you're me, imagine a Silicon Valley left San Fran. The whole the whole, the whole town would just collapse on itself.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 8:03
Yeah. Yeah. You know, that would be the time keep keep your eye on that. Because that's the time to buy in Palo Alto.

Alex Ferrari 8:09
Yes, exactly. Buy as much as much real estate as you possibly can

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 8:12
as market my friend.

Alex Ferrari 8:15
At that point of the game. All right. So So before we get into your your awesome book, I need to ask you a very serious question. Bloodsport to

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 8:24
Bloodsport to the Citizen Kane, Bloodsport franchise.

Alex Ferrari 8:27
I mean, obviously, I actually am not only a huge fan of Bloodsport one because I'm from the 80s though I'm sure if I watched it again right now. I would not think it was the best movie ever made at the time. So it lives in my mind as what it was when I saw it. And when I saw that you wrote the sequel to that because Bloodsport one was a fairly big hit. At the time.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 8:55
It was it was a big hit. And then you and then they call you up and go. And they call it an ATM. I mean, it was Yeah, it's it's it's one of those cult classics. I mean, I haven't watched it in I don't know 20 years or something like that. But it's it's definitely one of the I mean, I still talk to the you know, the the producer mark this out. You know who you know who produced the movie. I don't think he's directed at either I think kickboxer but I know somebody else directed, Bloodsport one. Anyway, and you know, he's still like, a blood sport. Yeah, blood sports, still paying the bills.

Alex Ferrari 9:32
It's amazing. It's amazing. It's one of those things. And so then how did you get the call because that and then that's it. That's a pretty big first because I saw it was like one of your first writing credits, right?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 9:43
That was the first thing that was the first like, that'd be ga guy. How'd you get that? How'd you get that is a crazy story. I had an agent at that time. Who? Well, I was studying karate. I was a black belt in Taekwondo. back then. And I guess, technically, I'm still a black belt though I can I could demonstrate one kick for you. But then you have to call 911. right afterwards.

Alex Ferrari 10:09
In your mind, in your mind, you're a black belt.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 10:12
Oh, wait, let me do it again. Yeah, that was a good one. Okay. So I was a black belt, and I, I was just quit my, my regular job, I had a, this was going 89, I want to say. So maybe just going into 90, and I've gotten out to LA and 84. So I have here six years and writing a bunch of scripts. And we've got, you know, finally got a good agent, and some good specs, features. And then I was working, I was working like full time at something. I was managing the karate studio for a while. And then I was doing industrial videos. And, you know, when I was working for a sales company, I was doing these industrial videos and sales training. And, and the guy that I worked for, had this, he had all these interesting business theories that were actually Yeah, don't get no hate mail, please. But there's actually stuff that was distilled down from L. Ron Hubbard, who had a lot of business theories besides his Scientology stuff, right? He was used to business organization.

Alex Ferrari 11:24
I mean, as you can tell, obviously, because Scientology is a very powerful organization. financially.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 11:29
Yeah. The run organization, right. So nice. But so so one of his principles that he had was that if you do something part time, you get part time results. If you want full time results, you should do it full time. So I've been, I felt that I had achieved much like as, as a successful part time writer as I could possibly be, I had an agent, I was kind of optioning scripts for $1 or $10. I was able to go on meetings every once in a while, right? So I felt like doing it part time, I'm getting my part time results. So So I quit the job doing these industrial videos, and decided to dedicate six months to nothing but writing. Um, so the guy gave, I gave them two weeks notice the guy says, hey, look, you know, we need some more time for releasing, you can give me a month, send me a short, right. So that was like around Thanksgiving. So I gave him the month and in that first month, I write a script, I'm going this is amazing. I can I can I knew I could support myself for six months, you know, without having to find another full time job. When you go Yeah, I'm going to support myself for for six months. And and you know, this way I can write a script a month and it's going to be I'm gonna be

Alex Ferrari 12:43
a big festival. It works. Absolutely,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 12:44
yes. Right. So, so wrote that first script in that first month, you know, had my last day at work. And then right around that same time, I started getting involved in Orthodox Judaism, because I was I was conservative, Jewish, Jewish, but getting involved adopt Judaism. I spent the next six months just learning about you.

Alex Ferrari 13:04
So you were procrastinating as a writer, what a shocking, shocking

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 13:08
religious procrastination mode.

Alex Ferrari 13:12
Instead of Netflix, you went down the Orthodox Jewish route. Okay, fine.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 13:16
I was able to say yes, I'm procrastinating, but it's because God wants me to. Exactly. So. So anyway, so the six months so five months goes by I've now like almost completely depleted my my account. And I'm like, Okay, this, I'm just gonna have to go get another part time job. Right. And which I wasn't worried about a single living on my own. It was in the

Alex Ferrari 13:37
ramen, ramen noodles.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 13:39
freaking out. Anyway, so my grandmother at that time did your story.

Alex Ferrari 13:45
I mean, you can get to Bloodsport whenever you want. I've always been

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 13:51
Okay, I'm gonna get there. But it's just it's you asked. So, I hope you've learned your lesson about asking me any question.

Alex Ferrari 13:59
Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm seeing the pattern sir.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 14:04
I've lost track of where we were. Okay. Let me start again, grandma. Anyway, so so your grandma so Grandma, grandma had always threatened to take me on a trip she was not well off to travel says okay, here's here's a you know, small bucket of money. Why don't you go on a trip so I said, Okay, I'll take I had friends in England friends in Sweden. Okay, so I'll go to you know England for a week Sweden for a week and then I'll go to Israel for two weeks and then I'll come back find a job and you know, keep pursuing this as a part time thing. I do my one week in England, and I literally am walking through the apartment door of my friends in Sweden when their phone is ringing right now. This is pre cell phone pre now. Right so their phone is ringing and it's like you know, I I apologize in advance to your Swedish viewers. But you know, real quick and talk or whatever the hell they say in Sweden and and stuff like that. Yeah, hold on one second. And they hand me the phone. They go. It's your agent. cracking down on it because I gave her my itinerary. She tracked me down. And she said, she said, there's an open writing assignment for Bloodsport to the producer hadn't read one of my spec screenplays, which was sort of a cop, you know, a cop action kind of screenplay. And any would like to meet you to see if there's a fit for Bloodsport, too. I'm like, I'm just starting the second week of a one month trip, you know, will this job be available? When I get back in three weeks? She said, No. I went, Okay. So I will come back in a couple of days. Alright, so I took literally whatever little money I had on the trip and whatever money I had in the bank and bought the only took ticket I could from Sweden on short notice, which is a one way business class ticket if you want to style. Oh, my God, well, yeah, we're gonna go out go out big. So. So cat got back to LA and met a couple of days later. And she just said, there's no way I'm not going to get this job. There's no way I have to get this job because I spent more than the money I actually even had. So I got to meet the guy. And, you know, my, my Brooklyn accent is behaving itself. Well, at the moment, but, but the guy I met with great guy named Mark de sal. He's from New Jersey. So and he has not gone through the pains that I have to get rid of the accent. So I sit down in the offices, yeah, it's really nice to meet you. I'm going, Hey, it's nice to meet you, too. my accent starts coming out. And we're talking and we joke and we just immediately hit it off. It was just like one of those things. where, you know, we just just really clicked right in the eye, like, you know, to who, you know, two guys from back east? And, yes, backgrounds and stuff. And so all throughout the meeting was going yeah, this is great. I really loved the script. But you know, I gotta, you know, I got to talk to some of the writers. And I'm like, leaning in, I go, No, there are no other writers. Three or four times throughout the meeting. Yeah, no, no, this is fantastic. But you know, I'm still talking other writers. No, there are no other writers. And then, so the meeting finishes, I'm feeling really good about it. But then I raced over to the karate studio that I was, you know, been training at and because I had helped the, the instruct the the master at the studio, right, some karate books. Yeah, which is, I think also helped with the Bloodsport, obviously. And then there was some picture in one of the books of like me doing this, like 12 o'clock sidekick back when I could lift my leg over my head, not by another couple of guys off of me. And I literally wrote in the gap between my bottom leg and my top leg, there are no other riders and ran it back to his office and left it for him with his assistant, that's a man got the job the next day.

Alex Ferrari 18:03
That's awesome. That's an

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 18:05
awesome car. It's a combination of, you know, serendipity. Yeah, yes, Deputy two boys from back east, but but I think the, the little if I could presume to make a learning moment, out of that incredibly long, potentially boring story, it's that I was I was just willing to do whatever it took to do it. I mean, literally, like, Oh, I gotta buy a, you know, $3,000 ticket with money, I don't have to get back to LA, well, this is what I want to do. This is what I got to do. Right? So it plays into this. And that you got to be willing to commit, you got to, you know, a lot of people have, you know, dreams, you know, and you know, a lot of people have goals. And there's a difference between a dream and a goal. Right? So, you know, I had a job, it wasn't my dream to be a writer, I had a goal of being a writer, and this is what you have to do. That's what you have to do, you know, and you have to just suck it up. And, you know, and put in

Alex Ferrari 19:11
extra risk and take the risk and take it because it was a it was a risk, like, you know, in general, it's a massive risk. So you had no guarantee you were gonna do it and you were like, Look, I'm gonna lose the rest of my European vacation. And, and then I'm also gonna have to spend $3,000 I don't have for the bear the risk. Also, it was a different time. There was it was a different time. And you know, I wouldn't do that today.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 19:35
Right. And that's, and I was I was gonna say that it's not like I was there. You know, I was what 2829 you know, you know, single, right, my monthly expenses, were maybe 12 $100 a month. You know, it's like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't such a thing like now it's like if I was on a European vacation or one of your big European vacation with my with my wife. And that my kids and I get the phone call, you know, it's like, you know, I'm not saying Honey, you know, I'm going to go back to LA you You stay here.

Alex Ferrari 20:09
Yeah. I mean unless obviously unless Kevin fee and then

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 20:13
yeah then it's right that's a much different I did on a we're on a cruise, you know, last summer and and there was a you know a showrunner position it opened up on a on a TV show and I had to talk to the show creator and you know and I said it's a guy I knew I didn't get the job but that's because like I'm in the middle of like, you know the Baltic Sea or wherever the hell we were trying to do a Skype call with like international Sure Sure. Sure. Like he couldn't hear me I couldn't hear him suffice it to say I did gotcha. I did not get I did not jump off the ship, swim to shore and take a plane back.

Alex Ferrari 21:00
So let's get to your book because you know, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show was out of the in the screenwriting space of screenwriting books, yours definitely sticks out by its title, my story can beat up your story. And it's a fairly violent title, sir. It's a you're obviously so obviously, all that karate is seeped into your screenwriting, and your Bloodsport

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 21:26
just welling up.

Alex Ferrari 21:27
So why did you write first of all why did you call it that? And secondly, why did you write this? What what caused you to write because there's a lot of screenwriters in Hollywood, there's a lot of people who've worked in television, but there's 1000s of them. But very few actually decided to sit down and write about the craft or tried to pat paid forward in whatever they've learned along their their journey.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 21:45
Right. It's a great question. The the desire to write the book came from now a bit of a gearhead, you know, like, like a bit of a science, you know, not honestly, science background, I think that's, that's giving myself too much credit, but certainly a huge interest as an amateur in science and physics and, and how things work. And, you know, my favorite fondest memories, when I was a kid was getting, you know, some broken piece of electronics and attacking it with, you know, a screwdriver and just dismantling it and trying to understand how it works. So, so I've always was fascinated with how do stories work? Just how do I reverse engineer a story? And I had a friend, guy named Gil Evans, who's also writer, and he and I would have these conversations back and forth. You know, how about this happens? Oh, somebody has this theory. Oh, there's this seven act structure? Oh, it's a sixth structure. Oh, there's 22 steps. So there's that. So we would just go back and forth. And, you know, and try to figure out sort of the structure stories. And I think the biggest aha moment I had was Bloodsport to all roads lead back to Bloodsport obvious that they said okay, well, you know what I want to you know what I'm going to structure Bloodsport to let me let me take two movies, you'll get them from blockbuster, put them in my handy dandy VHS player. And just just do like bullet points, you know, plot points, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I did 48 hours, and I did lethal weapon. Right? So I write it down. I wish I had those papers. It was kind of fascinating. So I wrote down blah, blah, blah, that plot points, 48 hours. And again, it had 44 plot points. And well, that's interesting, then I did leave the weapon, but below the 44 plot points. So I Whoa, that was interesting. Right, the 44 plot points. And they said, Well, can I set it divide those other? Was there a sort of a commonality on how those were laid out? Right. So I started saying, Oh, well, the first section is kind of this. And the second is the four act structure with the biting point that yes, so things started making themselves known to me, and then I would bounce it off my friend Gil, and he'd be like, Oh, this is really interesting, because I just read this book, called the hero within from Carol Pearson, that talks about the ark types that, that go into storytelling. And then I started examining films with these, from the lens of these art types is like orphan wandering war and martyr. And, and, and it laid out, you know, on those films, and then I started breaking down other movies and you know, 43 plot points 47 I was all in and around 44. So So I think in your case, I'm really onto something here. So, so just from my own writing my own benefit, I just tried to codify it in some way. And better that ultimately led to me. You know, I was kind of dabbling in programming at the time. And by programming I just mean like, database programming. So to access I said, let me see if I can create for myself a little template that I could use for story structure with Microsoft Access, just kind of from my own streamline my own process. So Did it and we had this like in the, for arc types and the 44 plot points, and what's the nature of those first 12 plot points?

And the reversals that happen after the end of Act One, and the central question that comes up, and just everything that that I had learned, and you'll find myself in, in conversation with the, with my friend, Gil, and develop this, this kind of like interactive database that was sort of fill in the blanks and, and you have a well structured story, because because the structure wasn't just working for Lethal Weapon and Bloodsport to and and, you know, and 48 hours, it was working for Star Wars, and it was working for, you know, I was writing, you know, kids movies at the time was working for Dennis the Menace to and you know, the Wizard of Oz, and it just, it seems to just, you know, it started feeling, you know, if I can, you know, in my spirit of self aggrandizement, it started feeling like, like, I might have actually accidentally stumbled onto like the unified field theory of story structure. Okay. And so, so I developed this piece of software for my own use, and then moved to Canada going, you know, towards the end of the 90s. And because the whole immigration thing, I couldn't, I couldn't work for the first nine months for Canadian companies. So I'm saying I'm going, what am I going to do, I had still had some contracts from the States, I was writing a picture for universal. And I was like, Well, what do I do with all my extra time on waiting to qualify for Canadian work permit? I said, Well, you know, I had the software, let me figure out how to distribute it. Right. So you know, so that became like, my side project, I was gonna market this story structure software. But it is any good piece of software, you know, comes with a instruction manual. So I had to now write down the instructions for it, you know, which meant that I had to start explaining the theory behind the instructions. And so suddenly, I had this instruction manual, which is like 50%, of a book on screenwriting. So ultimately, you know, about 10 years later, or so, you know, I was thinking, I should just turn this into a book, because everybody who got the software loved it, and everybody who was just even read the instruction manual, and be like, wow, this is cool, you should make this into a book. So this is kind of it started from my own lazy ass, you know, I don't want too much when it comes time to work. So I went from that to you know, here's a structure I can use for myself into, you know, something I can sell to others versus and then they just, they turned into a book as well.

Alex Ferrari 27:47
So then, so now you have the story structure, you have this, you you've broken the unified theory. Right? You, you've gotten to black matter of story. Essentially, I am I am also an amateur science geek as well, a little bit. So it's, I understand. But so you started I'm sure you've read a handful of screenplays in your day. So you've probably read a bunch what are the most common mistakes you see in screenplays and And specifically, from first time writers but also from even experienced writers, people just writers in general? Because, you know, not everyone hits it out of the park every time.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 28:28
Yeah, for sure. No, no, nobody does the, the I think the biggest mistakes that try to say it in a way that's that's not that's not offensive,

Alex Ferrari 28:42
be offensive, it's okay.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 28:43
The barrier for dialogue, right? Or their ideas, you know, are not commercial or you know, to be harsh, they just suck. Right? That that's not a mistake, that's just taste, is it not, it may not even be taste, it's just, you know, you just you've hit the wall on whatever your natural ability is, you know, I, you know, if somebody if somebody says, you know, what's the biggest mistake you see with amateur amateur mathematicians, you know, and I be like, Well, you know, my inability to do any sort of high level math is not a mistake. It's just, it's a limitation, right? So, so stuff that can't be learned, you know, you'd kind of just stuck with so taking that out, I would say, oh, bad characters or, you know, bad dialogue. I mean, everything could be improved, but, you know, you have to cross that threshold and to something unique and different. But the the kind of the unifying mistake that I see a lot is bad structure. Because part of what my study on the subject has shown me is that we are wired we have a biological imperative. Storytelling, and stories that are told in a way that our brains are physically constructed to understand have a better have a deeper resonance to us than stories that come that try to, you know, like, if our brain has circular story receptors, and something's writing, you know, plot points that are squares, they're not going to get into our story receptors. And yeah, I mean, we've all had that experience, you see a movie or a TV show, you know, something like that, that really didn't sit right where I didn't like that. I'm not even sure I can even negotiate why I didn't like it. I can tell you why it's because because the structure, some of that some aspect of the story was trying to force its way into your brain, and it blew everything up on the way in, you know, and then your brain starts trying to churn and understand what the hell was that all about. And, you know, and and it just leaves you with a very unsatisfying story experience. So the biggest mistake I see is people just don't understand structure well enough and structured doesn't have to mean formula. But I haven't done this exercise yet. I mean, I was crazy about the movie parasite. But I can assure you, that, that if I sat down and ran, ran it through, you know, my understanding of structure and the whole, my story can beat up your story approach to telling, it'll, it'll all film, it'll fall out in, in line. So and nobody can accuse, you know, parasite of being like a formulaic movie in any way. So what structure does is it just, it gives you a, it gives you a wrapper around which you can let your creativity and your innovation and your, your, your personal flair for storytelling shine. But you don't have to reinvent you don't reinvent structure. Every time you sit down to write a screenplay,

Alex Ferrari 32:05
it's, I always use the analogy of, of a house being built, it's the frame. So you, you know houses are going to be houses, you can't build the foundation on top of the roof, it's, that's just not you need that, there is a basis of how you build that house. And it's always going to be the same no matter what you do, there's a foundation, there's walls, there's a door, there's a roof period, what you do inside of that is where the magic happens, that's where the architect comes into play, that's where you could do other things within it. But those basic building blocks cannot be adjusted, because that's just the way the way it is you can try to put the foundation on top of the roof, let me know how that works out. And then you get you know, some some other movies that we will remain nameless, that tried to change the structure. And you're very right, like you watch. You know, you watch a film, like the room. And, and you you watch that, and obviously that that movie is so far beyond any sort of the foundation is on top of the roof on a film like that. And also, the dressings inside are all thrown around and everything. So it's upside down. But he's transcended, he's walked into the multiverse, he is now in another dimension and is now because entertaining on a completely different level for for many people, and that's very rare.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 33:32
Well, it's, it's interesting. I mean, it's the the analogy with the foundation and the roof, and everything is a good, good analogy. Because even like in my book, you know, like going back to those 44 plot points. It's the first well make up act one. And those are the ones that get really specific about the, you know, Hero villain or stakes character, you know, you know, it's a very specific flavor. After you get past those first 12. Like the, you know, the remaining 32 are much more generalized. You know, it's like, you know, you know, seven pairs of Yes, no reversals, and I don't say, you know, this Yes, no reversal, the, the stakes, excuse me, the stakes for the tertiary characters increased by 14%. You know, it's like, I don't I don't drill into it. Because that that's mind numbing. Right. And you're an unhelpful, but the first 12 are super important. That's the foundation of the house, and then you know, and still, we even listen that, you know, it's still gross. And I should just add, you know, that, that the, my approach to storytelling is not like, you know, because it's, I would hear a lot. It's like, Oh, so every, every movie has to every movie, you know, you know, is

Alex Ferrari 34:48
your page on page 16. This happens on page 18. That happens.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 34:52
Yeah, actually, I try not to get that specific, but it gets pretty specific, right? Yeah. So yeah, so no, not there are a ton of really good movies out there that probably have nothing to do with my system at all. So my, my, and this is I know this is yo yo, indie film hustle. Right? So, you know, indie films, you know, can be a little bit more freewheeling, you know, and experimental that what I'm talking about, you know, my goal had been to be a Hollywood hack from day one. So, you know, so what I'm describing is a very specific, here's how commercial movies you know, work. And the, the reality, you know, it's sort of a chicken and egg type of thing, you know, am I saying that, you know, all, you know, all good movies are all well structured movies, follow my system? No, no, probably not. You know, do all movies that follow my system, end up with good structures? 100%. Yeah. And then then it's, you know, now you're stuck with your dialogue and your character,

Alex Ferrari 35:59
theme and plot. And, at

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 36:00
least at least, we took the biggest stumbling block off the table, which is structure.

Alex Ferrari 36:06
You know, the one there was one movie I saw years ago, and I haven't seen it since because it was, so I found it to be just absolutely horrible, which was up but it was a huge monster hit, which was Twilight, the original Twilight film. When it came out, it was such a big hit, I just needed to go see it. And I watched it. And I found it to be horrendous. And I because the the main villain didn't show up until 20 minutes before the movie ended. Like, there was no even conversation about this guy. Until then, it was all about the love, you know, the back and forth pining? And then I understand why it made so much money because the girls that went to go see it, they wanted to do that. And they it fed into that demographic perfectly. But the villain, like the villain, and shelf is like literally 20 minutes to the end, he showed up I'm like, What? Am I the only one who sees this? Like, there was no antagonists for 80% of the movie, so I couldn't relate to it. So that just that we wiring thing that you were saying it was like, short circuiting My mind was that I just kept seeing like, why did everyone like and I'm like, okay, not everyone but you know why it was such a big hit? That's

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 37:13
right. That was that's kind of like a there's a two part thing with that which is that the you know, like when doing my analysis of movies, I never do sequels or movies derived from pre existing material us because you can't learn anything because they have such a built in audience

Alex Ferrari 37:33
and there was a twilight books Yeah,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 37:34
yeah guy you know, you know if if George Lucas you know, released though, I guess the Star Wars was originally Yeah, is getting a little bit you know, long in the tooth you know, at least you know, as far as critical success but maybe not. But, but but you know, if if another Star Wars movie came out, you know, it's going to make a certain guaranteed amount of money no matter how bad it is. And I mean, you know, it's just it's got a built in audience so I find for educational purposes you can you you want to you know, you can learn a lot more from analyzing Toy Story than you can from analyzing Toy Story for right now. What you get out of it, boy, sorry for man, for all I know, may maybe made more money than it did or so right. So he said, Oh, well, therefore, let me learn from Toy Story for now. It's got a 30 year built in audience right. You know, it's like God,

Alex Ferrari 38:35
is it that launch Jesus? It is as close to five I think, yeah, so like 25 years

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 38:41
Jesus. So it's like, so you can't you can't learn anything from Toy Story. Or it's like

Alex Ferrari 38:47
a while but Wally, but while you can.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 38:53
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Correct. Right. So something like that. Right. While he too. You wouldn't be able to learn as much from I don't think it would I wouldn't say Bali too. But

Alex Ferrari 39:01
I actually I would practice

Unknown Speaker 39:03
revenge

Alex Ferrari 39:04
to the Electric Boogaloo.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 39:08
Yes. Okay. So, so a lot of the you know, whenever I know, that was like another real big, real big in it, not innovation. But the aha moment for me was looking at like a I go through Internet Movie Database and look at the top 50 grossing movies of all time. And but parse the list. So I took out sequels, I took out reboots, I took out anything that had any sort of brand awareness, and said, Now you know, these and those, those top 50 of all time might have been distilled from the top like 300 movies of all time based on box office, because I had to get down to the 50 original movies. So liar liars and the you know, the Star Wars is the original

Alex Ferrari 39:55
Star Wars. So let me ask you a question. So I always love asking about this because I avatar. avatar wasn't original concept, original world, no pre existing, fairly risky film to put out and I argue still that there's only probably one man on the planet who would have had that opportunity then I don't think they're given Spielberg 500 million to do the design and even in or Scorsese or any of these guys, so there's very few shortlist. But that movie, obviously was the biggest movie of all time, arguably still is based on inflation and all that kind of good stuff. Well, if you want to go back to Khan with the biggest one, it's Snow White and Snow White. Yeah, and you know, those kind of stilted but arguably speaking, it's one of the biggest cultural hits of all time.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 40:45
Number one for many years for Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 40:46
exactly. What was it about that story, which it did get nominated for Best Screenplay, and Best Picture, but the screenwriting community I remember just destroyed it because it's burned. Golly, it's Dances with Wolves. It's this and that, like he said, they just go back and I'm like, Yeah, it is. ferngully Yeah, it is. Dances with Wolves. I mean, it's, it is Dances with Wolves. But a much cooler version of Dances with Wolves

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 41:14
I've ever seen ever seen the analysis the side by side analysis of Star Wars and Wizard of Oz? No. It's fascinating. Star Wars is Wizard of Oz.

Alex Ferrari 41:23
What's to say? It's a hero's journey is basically it's the hero's journey. My favorite is my favorite. My favorite is one of the biggest franchises in movie history Fast and Furious. What's that? That's just Point Break. It's Point Break. It's the literal story instead of surfers their racecar drivers. Right? I mean, essentially the exact same story. anyone listening please go online and look it up. Point Break is the original Fast and Furious.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 41:55
One of my first agents, you know, quote, infamously said this to me, you know, when I asked his advice about you know, what should I What should I be writing? He goes, I don't care. Just make it derivative and make it quick.

Alex Ferrari 42:09
Wow. Wow. All right. So back to the original question avatar. What was about that film specifically that you feel that story? That that caught on? Or like what's going through your system? What is it?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 42:22
Yeah, I think it was, first of all, structurally perfect characters journey. Perfect. You know, it hits you know, undeserved misfortune, orphan wanderer, warrior martyr, you know, on a, on a on a huge canvas. It, it was a cultural event, a cultural event, which you can't find it. Yeah, right. You know, look, you know, it's an imperfect analogy, but you know, you can talk about, you know, the abyss of the abyss. Yeah, I like the Abyss a lot, you know, the character stuff. But, you know, same filmmaker, you know, took us to take us to another world we've never seen before. Also fantastical creatures, and then do a fraction of the business of

Alex Ferrari 43:13
different time to different time periods, different time,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 43:16
but, you know, within 567 years of each other, no, so

Alex Ferrari 43:21
no, it's not. That was in 19. I was in 1990. And the avatar came out in like, 2000. And something This

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 43:27
was 1990. Yeah, cuz

Alex Ferrari 43:29
it was during my time at the video store, so Yes, I remember. There's a, there's a short window of time. 87 to 93 I'm pretty much unstoppable with movie trivia. That's, that's my that's my sweet spot. I can knock it out there

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 43:44
was avatar.

Alex Ferrari 43:46
avatar avatar was if I'm not mistaken, was either it was cuz Titanic was 97 are in 90 See, I was 97 matrix was 99. So avatar was I think 2000. And it was 2007. But 2007 2008 around there are a little less. All right, hold on. While we're while we're speaking, continue speaking and I'll look it up.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 44:16
Anyway. Yeah. So it was just it was it was just a you know, it was such a complete journey into this fantastical world. And, and part of it also was a little bit of a dog and pony show, you know, it's like we've never seen, you know, creatures, you know, in that, like that ever portrayed before. As well as they were

Alex Ferrari 44:39
so that it was 220 and it was 2009. So it's right around there. So it's 2009. So but the thing was with with Avatar, because a lot of people are like, Oh, it's paint by numbers. It's the stories rehashed as Dances with Wolves and all this kind of stuff. But the big thing that made that story go is that keep an eye saw it when I was watching. It was like he hit Every point perfectly Oh, he execute. He basically made the perfect apple pie. Like it like it's a recipe that we all know. But he hit everything perfectly. And then you add on the spectacle and the technology and the event and all that stuff. And then it's an unbeatable combination.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 45:19
Yeah, it doesn't. Things don't have to be, you know, spanking new. Yeah, it's not, you know, any rocket science. You know? No, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, like, you know, yeah, it's always derivative. Nobody's ever, ever claimed that James Cameron was the most brilliant, you know, dialogue writer, you know, in the world. He gets characters really well, he, you know, directs them, you know, effectively, you know, dialogue wise Quentin Tarantino is better than James Cameron. Sure. But Cameron knows how to paint on a very big canvas and and he hits all the beats it's you know, he made it derivative he made a quick you know, it's it's funny. You know, it's interesting seen the movie The Big Short?

Alex Ferrari 46:15
No, of course.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 46:17
This is great. was important, Ramzan remembers, who is the chef? No, was not what was his name? He just died. Very sad.

Alex Ferrari 46:26
I forgot. Yeah, I think I remember I forgot what the for chef is. But yeah, continue.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 46:30
Yeah, but anyway, but he's explaining, you know, tranches of you know, short selling. Right. It says, you know, he goes here to see Oh, here's fish. You know, I bought it, you know, I bought it, you know, for the weekend crowd. But I have some leftover, it didn't sell, so I can't sell it anymore as fresh fish. But I cut it up. And I put it into the stew and now it's a whole brand new thing. Right. So yeah, you know, so derivative storytelling. It's like, yeah, okay, I'm taking I'm taking some old fish, but I'm putting it into a brand new stew, you know, and that's storytelling.

Alex Ferrari 47:03
But that's storytelling from The Epic of Gilgamesh. I mean, it's like,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 47:08
well, that's a larger segment, you know, there are only 36 dramatic situations. Right? So you go, okay. Yeah, that's, that's fine.

Alex Ferrari 47:16
Yeah, and I think and I think a lot of screenwriters and filmmakers in general, they all get caught up with, like, I need to create the brand new thing, I gotta create the new thing and, and I got to create something that's never been written before. And the thing is that everything has been written in one way, shape, or form, all you could do is put a new twist on it or combine certain elements to make it fresh and new. And you look at even if you look at Pulp Fiction, which is arguably one of the more original films created in the in recent history. If you look at it, and you put it up against the hero's journey, and the points that that lays out, it all it hits, but he just what was brilliant about that is he just changed the the timeline, but the thing still hit, which is the genius behind that film. Like it's like, it's it's

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 48:04
my favorite examples from from Pulp Fiction as far as like, how does it follow the hero's journey is, you know, towards the end of, you know, act two, there's a there's the the death and resurrection. Yeah, moment. That was part of it. But it's Vincent Vega gets machine guns. Right, right, in the bathroom. So right. And then the next scene is alive again, because it's just, just the timeline was, you know, was the the conceit of the movie was playing with the timeline.

Alex Ferrari 48:38
And that was the brilliance. But that's the brilliance of that film.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 48:40
That's the brilliance of right. That's what I'm saying. You know, people feel like, Oh, I can't follow the structure. I'll make it formulaic. Because in your formulaic hack, you don't know how to do it better. You know, I'm, hence hence my story can beat up your story. I'm just a little too antagonistic. I should have been nicer.

Alex Ferrari 49:00
So talk like,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 49:03
last night, it was a much nicer person. Yes, yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 49:05
Save.

Alex Ferrari 49:09
Just save the cat. Just save the cat. Don't beat up the story. Just save

Unknown Speaker 49:12
the cat.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 49:17
sweet guy, you know.

Alex Ferrari 49:19
So. So we're talking about structure. But I found that a lot of times you I just saw a movie The other day, that the hero. I couldn't identify with him. There wasn't anything really that really interesting about him. And I'm watching this cop drama. And I'm just going and he's a great actor. And it's a and I love him and the cast is fantastic. And the production values great. 21 bridges, the one with with chat chat, chat chat with Black Panther, and I'm watching it and I'm like it's just so good. And like his character had no real depth, there was no history to it. He was just like this. There was some that the screenwriter tried to do something there with his dad and like he's a cop killer, or he's a killer of cop killers, as a cop and all that, but it wasn't anything good. What advice do you have for making you know, for for constructing a good hero? What are some tips?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 50:24
Well, it's you gotta you gotta go back to the sources, you got to look at the hero's journey. You know, it's like, you know, there are a couple of, you know, a couple like super handy, kind of like,

Alex Ferrari 50:36
Swiss Army is like, Swiss Army Knife kind of

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 50:38
army knife. It's like, yeah, you know, it's, I always ask these questions when I'm writing or trying to sort of coach people with writing this, you start off simple, you go, what is your hero wrong about, you know, at the start of the movie, that they're going to become right about, you know, at the end, your heroes got to be the best at something. Right? That's why, you know, you read it, you know, it's sadly like, you read a lot of screenplays or stories, you know, written by people and, you know, the Heroes is like schlub, who's the loser. He's the joke at the office, you can't do anything. Right, you got it, I get it. I know why you're trying to tell that story. But, you know, it's, you're short, you're new, you're not getting the audience in, in, you know, into the character. And, you know, you, you know, if the guys, the guys such a loser, you know, he's not good at anything, you know, then you're not interested. You're not interested? Yeah. What do you what do you what do you want to accomplish? Right? So it's like, you know, what we like, so, you know, and then and then you have to put the hero through the paces of the of the journey, you know, you've got a, you got to make it really clear. You know, by the end of Act One, we know, what's your heroes? You know, I think it was Syd field used to refer to it as like, professional, personal and private, right? professional goal, right? What's his personal goal? What's his private goal, right? So we lose our professional goal is, you know, what? Yeah, is no professional goal is he wants to destroy the Death Star. Right? Right. The personal goal is save the princess private goal is he wants to become a Jedi like his father. Right? And, and the way you can get in the way you think about that is when looking at your hero and your main character, you're saying the professional goal is what's the thing that means the most to the most people that your hero was involved in? Right? Then the personal goal, His goal is, what's the thing that means the most to the hero and a couple of his or her closest, you know, associates, right? allies or friends or family? Right? And then the private goal is what's the thing that means the most of the hero? Right? So it's, it's so it's just sort of a holistic way of looking at your hero's whole life. And, like, going back to your very good question about like, what are some of the big mistakes? You see, you say, sometimes, you know, in a poorly told story, the hero only has a professional goal, right? Or you're the hero is not, you're not, you know, gives up on the private goal to cylinder with a private call becomes insignificant. Right? Because that's how, you know, that's the other problem, you know, that I often see a lot in movies is, you know, we've all seen it. You watch a movie God the movies over and they go on a wait a minute, it's still going on? Oh, it's still going on? Right? It's like, yeah, the people don't know when to finish telling the story. Your movie is over when you've taken that, you know, go back to Star Wars, you know, will Luke destroy the Death Star save the princess and become a Jedi like his father? When you are each of those three questions? Oh, that's when your movies over. Right. So it's, you know, and then the whole the whole film is dedicated to answering those questions. Yes or no. You know, you know, it's like, you know, he goes to moss Isley with Obi Wan. So that's Yes, is by going to my cisely he will be you know, he will be helping to destroy the Death Star, he will be helping to save the princess and he is taking a step closer to being a videojet. I like his father. And but they get stopped in stormtroopers. So now it's all a no, then it's Yes. And so that's why, you know, it's like so then you start playing the reversals, but you got to know the question. Well, you got another question that's driving your hero.

Alex Ferrari 54:27
So much did. Did you did you watch office space?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 54:32
Not much. Did the movie Yeah. Yeah, I saw it a long time ago and then sort of bits and pieces of it more.

Alex Ferrari 54:38
Okay. All right. That was a wonder I was gonna have you kind of break that that carry that mainecare because he was a schlub. But then I was like, as we're talking, I'm thinking, I'm like, what would what is his professional goal? Well, his professional goal want to do this and his personal goal he wanted to get with Jennifer Aniston. And his private goal was to do so he's like, okay, you start thinking about,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 54:56
right what you know, but some movies You know, some movies just don't work. I mean, you know, like, you know, you can't break it down like the guy took the liberty while we were talking about Jennifer Aniston. Looking at how much the movie gross right so the budget was $10 million in the movie gross $10 million. You know so but

Alex Ferrari 55:16
uh, but uh, but it built into this massive follow afterwards.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 55:21
True, but that's not the movie that that's the movie that might judge could make. Yeah, of course, he was coming off of you know, Beavis and Butthead. Right. Yeah, that's not the movie that you necessarily could make.

Alex Ferrari 55:31
I mean, there was also a different time.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 55:33
Also a different time. You can't say it's a different time, every time we talk about a movie that wasn't last week,

Alex Ferrari 55:37
because it's a different time, like our entire industry is so ridiculously different now.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 55:44
And it really goes a different because it's a different,

Alex Ferrari 55:46
it's a different, obviously, different times.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 55:49
But there there there are, we would be remiss if, if I didn't, if I didn't bring up this point, which is that we're really talking about two different types of screenplays here is the screenplay that gets bought. And then the screenplay that gets made. So you know, anybody who is an aspiring writer has to focus on the screenplay that gets bought. Right? Which is very different from the one that gets made. So the corollary to that is, is the screenplay that doesn't get bought, but helps to launch your writing career. Right? So if we, if you really want to get reductive about it, you know, most people, you know, like, you know, you've written the screenplay, What's your goal? Sell your screenplay, or have a writing career? Right, probably having a writing career. Yeah. And selling the screenplay would be part of that. But it's not the exclusive part of it. Right? So. So there's all sorts of radical ideas, I'm gonna go into them in the book a bit, and the whole, you know, the, the smart writers business guide, where it's like, if you Ideally, you want to write a movie that that can get bought. Right, so you got a, you know, you got parts in there that, you know, it's like, there's a, there's a, somebody can read it and feel all there's a star that's, it's perfect for Brad Pitt. Right? Or, you know, like, you can you can see it, you can throw it in the description. Hey, think Brad Pitt, you know, but there's the, from Thelma and Louise days, or, you know, what, however, you want to specifically say, you know who this person is, but then the the other side of it is, you know, is, you might also want to write something so outrageous, and so on. producible I know, it's a weird thing to hear me, you just described himself as a Hollywood hack, you know, say that you're trying to break in, write something wildly, and producible. But make it super memorable. I mean, I remember sitting with a producer. And, and we were talking about this, because I think the meeting was over, I said, Hey, you know, I've just written the book, I'm interested in your thoughts on some of these things. And, you know, and he said, Yeah, you know, we write something and producible it goes, somebody gave me a script once about a dog who wanted to commit suicide. But his owners didn't understand that this dog was depressed and wanted to kill himself. So every time the dog tried to do something, like it was laying out, you're like, grabbing the toaster, and trying to jump into the bathtub with it. The owners would be like, Oh, boy, are you hungry? Let me get you some food. Yeah, like, they. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. I promise you if we have a conversation, 20 years from now, and I hope you do as I'm enjoying speaking 20 years from now and say, hey, what was that? Um, producible movie I talked about wanting to make that movie. But you don't you you but it's, you know, I never knew the name of the writer, I'm sure the producer wherever he is. Mo can still tell you the name of the writer, you know, or at least remembers the screenplay. So it makes you memorable. It helps launch a career. I'd love to find that. Oh, that was oh my god, I would so watch that movie.

Alex Ferrari 59:07
Can you imagine if it was? Imagine if it was a Pixar Animation? Ah.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 59:16
Yeah, so so there is a certain aspect of the business about new rights, something

Alex Ferrari 59:21
that's really so it's really yeah, it's really a great it's a really great idea. And I've read I've actually read scripts from screenwriters, who then got deals because of it was basically a writing sample. I read I read a script about it was a mash up between Alice in Wonderland and Sherlock Holmes. And it was just mash up and I read the script. I'm like, this is completely unpredictable, but it's very memorable. Really good writing tight. An agent of mine gave it to me one day to read I was like, Oh, this is great. I can't wait. No one's gonna make this. And it was right before Sherlock Holmes got released, and a TV show and all that stuff. So it was still a little early, but it's a little out there for the mainstream. But it's a great but it's a great. It's a. It's a great, it's a great, memorable piece. Now you do talk about one thing in your book that I wanted to bring up before we before we go is what is the unity of opposites?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:00:13
the unity of opposites. I love the unity of opposites. It's my favorite thing in the whole world. Yes, it's this idea that it's and I didn't even invent it. I wish I did. But it's this principle that that characters are connected at some thematic level. And, and they they represent opposite sides of a moral or thematic argument. So yeah, so it ties very cleanly into theme. I will go back to Star Wars, I guess. It's like imagine like a, you know, a wheel, right? And you put Luke as the hero in the center of the wheel. Right? The villain is actually not Darth Vader in that piece. It's really, you know, Peter Cushing's character, you know, Vader works for him. So he's, he's the big bad guy. Right? So, you know, and then you you create these characters that go around Luke. Right? So Luke in the villain, so the hero in the villain are connected on this thematic line. In first Star Wars. The theme is what's more powerful faith or science, faith or technology? Right? Because that's this whole thing shut off the targeting computer, Luke, ready doesn't distract. Right? So that's the theme, right? What's more powerful faith or technology? Right? Then you have the unity of opposites. So you have to do so you have your six characters circling Luke, right? You have at the top, you have Obi Wan and Darth Vader. Right? they're connected? Because they're both old jet eyes. Yeah, they've trained together, they understand the power of the force, right? But they're opposites. Right? Once the darker ones the light. So you know, and if you ask them, what's more powerful faith or technology, if you asked, If you asked Obi Wan, what's more powerful, he'd say fair, vs. Darth, he'll say, well, fates really important, but technology is what's keeping me alive. And you know, the Death Stars is big ball of technology, not big ball of faith. And that's where he's currently working. Right? You know, so it's like, so he's representing technology. So So Lucas? Oh, cheese, I wonder what's more powerful faith or technology? He taught me Oh, he understands from Darth and he understands from Obi Wan. There are two perspectives, right? And on the other, then, you know, on this side of Luke, you have Princess Leia, and you have Han Solo. So these are young, you know, self actualized people, right? So if you ask Leah, what's more powerful faith or technology? She'd go with faith, right? Trust, you know, help us Obi Wan, you're our only hope. Right? She has faith that you know that people will do the right thing. You ask consolo, what's more powerful faith or technology? He's going to say technology, you know, hokey religions are no match for a blaster kid. Right? technology. Then at the bottom, you've got the last two of your heroes main characters, and that's c threepio and artoo D to write. Both of them are, you know, are big chunks of technology. Right? But you ask, see, threepio what's more important, you know, what's more powerful faith or technology? He'll tell you technology, right? He has no faith, right? versus our two D two, which you know, is going on missions. And you know, he's got to help the princess you know, he's, you know, he's the best friend character. Right. So, so the unity of opposites. So these, you have two robots, you know, are connected the, the unity, but they're opposites. You have the two self actualized young people, you know, older than Luke, but younger than Obi Wan and Darth, you know, opposites. But you know, there's a unity to them. And then you have Obi Wan and Darth opposites. But there's a unity to them. And it's all about the theme. So the thing that the thing I love going back again, to the question of you know, one of the mistakes I see I say, you know, in screenplays, the themes are muddy. You know, you don't know what's what's your story really about? What's the argument? You know that? What's the thematic argument that the villain is making? What's the magic question the hero was asking? What's the thematic synthesis? What does the hero learn about the theme by the end? Right? So So unity of opposites is a cool way of, of identifying your characters, but also tying it to the theme would you know which which becomes super important?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:04:54
Don't write a screenplay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, TV. TV, write a an original pilot, don't write a spec episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Don't write a spec episode of 911. Right? Because you're never gonna, you're never going to match what? You know. 911, you know, has, you know, can afford the best writers, you know, in the business, and they all sit around together and they bounce ideas off each other and they distill out an idea. So you versus the entire writing of Yeah, the room at 911 you're never going to write a script even close, right? And if you do, they're never going to buy it. And and if they don't, if they really impressed me, maybe you get a job, they average and I'm going to get a job elsewhere because it's 911. So if you don't get your 911 job, you got nothing, right? You write an original pilot one hour drama, right? You write a an original pilot it, they have nothing to compare it to. So already, you know, it's not like well, it's not as good as our 911 script is not as good as our original pilot. But still it's an original pilot and it's really good. People will pay attention to it. You might accidentally sell the damn thing right because if it's any good and it's a solid writing sample, right you know so it's and there's so much you know, so many more opportunities in television and it keeps growing I mean number of original movies that get made I mean here so go to Internet Movie Database right now go to the homepage. Let's see films in development Thor it's a NO SEQUEL Jurassic World three sequel Fast and Furious 10 Raina in the last dragon I know what that is. Oh, DreamWorks must be based on material animations. Animation, Bad Boys for sequel? You know, pre production Doctor Strange. Guardians of the Galaxy last tool is an original Shang Chi legend is something Mission Impossible seven. You know, it's like, you know, in production minions, Suicide Squad, Batman matrix for avatar.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:03
They're all

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:07:05
Yeah, right. You know, this is all material you can never get your hands on, you can't get access to but you come up with an original thing. All of my point was via movies or going for the big 10 polls and just the budgets have gotten so big. The TV you can come up with something kind of new and interesting and different, you know, get in

Alex Ferrari 1:07:23
and get in have an I have a fighting chance, I have a fighting chance.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:07:26
And you can actually in TV writing you actually have a trajectory, you know, I can get in I will start you know, my my, my personal assistant on my last TV show stitchers guy named Matt Kane. You know, he worked for a season as my personal Savior for two seasons as my personal assistant, you know, produced production producers assistant, second season I said, Hey, you know, you're really good writer. Let's let's work on it. Why don't you write a script with me? You know, so I got him script writing. On the second season. He worked with me. He just texted me last night that he's officially in development with Netflix on an original pilot that he wrote, right? That's a trajectory. Right? You haven't TV? It's a trajectory film. It's It's It's a never ending series of winning the lottery.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:17
Right? That's a really great way of putting

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:08:19
up TV is such a better business. And to be candid, I think the best writing is on television. It's not in films anymore. Right? Yeah, you know, it's it's the people who knows these things have said that if you didn't like whatever that Metacritic kind of algorithm that you have to look at to say oh, here's a good TV show by by all objective standards, this is considered a quality television show that there are so many of those shows that have crossed that threshold into being a quality show that there are there are no longer is the first time in history. There's there are no there aren't enough hours if you did nothing including sleeping and pooping and you did nothing but watch quality television shows that a objectively considered quality you could watch them more and more coming out every week.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:15
Oh no, it's it's awesome. That's

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:09:17
my best writing is television. So you want to break into the business. Don't write screenplays. Write a one hour drama original, not a not a spec. You know, 911 or Game of Thrones?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:28
Very, very great advice. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:09:36
Wow, the lesson that took me the longest to learn is that I don't know everything. I'm still learning that because I have a problem that I actually do think I know everything.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:50
We are in the film business. So this does.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:09:52
I can't possibly know everything yet. I still think I do. So y'all I'm sorry. grappling with that, and I know I know, I don't know everything and then I'm being a little bit tongue in cheek. But you know, but it's, I think to try to make it make me sound like less of a moron and more thoughtful about it. You create something brand new, right? You a script, the pilot, whatever. You have to be willing to believe. I think that nobody understands it the way you do. Right? And, but you also have to be willing to think that people can help it. And the lessons try to figure out, what do I get the help that I need? versus how much do I hold on to what I think it is? And it's, it's a particularly challenging bit of math. If you become a showrunner, right, because as a showrunner, you're responsible for everything. And I know talking about television again, but but the idea is that as soon as you start, you know, as soon as you start making changes that you don't agree with, right, just based on you know, some enemy, some, it's, there's politics involved in studio notes, it's, you know, notes for your partners. But as soon as you start making changes that you don't feel, right, then you become useless to the entire endeavor. Because, you know, you don't know, you know, if you pitch me an idea for an episode of our show that we're working on, and I'm show runner to suicide

Alex Ferrari 1:11:31
dog by about bow suicidal,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:11:33
exactly, right, right up between idea I can react, instinctively go, Yeah, I don't know that that's not sitting well with me, you know, wherever this pilot, or this TV show came from, that idea is not living in that same space, I could try to elucidate it over let's just reject it and come up with something else. So that's me thinking, I know everything and rejecting help of good ideas coming in. So you have to be able to figure it out. It's kind of parse that calculation is how much do you defend your material? Like it's your own child? versus how much are you willing to look at? And go? Yeah, my kid could use a little therapy.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:10
Fair enough. And three of you.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:12:12
That's the hardest lesson, I think, for me personally,

Alex Ferrari 1:12:15
and three of your favorite films of all time.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:12:18
Ooh, they're their favorites for all sorts of different reasons. Star Wars, because I saw it and said, Oh, my God, you know, I was 17. Like, it was just such a complete journey and trip. That was pretty amazing. 2001 Yeah. Because I, I saw it in my teens. And I was like, wow, that's, you know, film can tell a bizarre is linear and nonlinear.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:43
It's Kubrick. It's just too

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:12:45
quick. Right? Yeah. And, and then probably, you know, for historical reasons, Citizen Kane, because it showed, you know, it showed what the what you could do if, you know if you didn't listen to anybody. You just ran with it. And you know, then the movie almost killed him.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:06
Very much.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:13:06
So it Citizen Kane. So some movies I like for like, you know, Mike Lee I like it, because they really touched me. And there's all sorts of movies, you know?

Unknown Speaker 1:13:17
Right? You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:18
like so many are then where can people find you your work and in your book.

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:13:25
The book is on Amazon calm. And my story can be a pure story. I do have a poorly used website, which is my story can be up your story calm. But, but if we have a moment or two, I'll make a plug for a brand new venture that I'm involved in that were started a company. And we put out our first product called writers room Pro, which is taking escar cork boards and the handwritten whiteboards that are commonly used in the writers room and saying This is nuts that this hasn't shifted over to a digital equivalent. I know why it hasn't because the price of big monitors used to be too expensive. It's not anymore. So the time is now ripe for for rhizomes to know like editing switched over from you know, from film and trim bins with avid and, and cameras switched over from film cameras to to digital cameras, it's time for the writers room to switch to a much more secure and much more robust solution. So that's the new venture so it's a check it out at the writers room proz.com. And it's it's really designed for professionals but we have a lot of individual writers who using the whole system and it's not a story system, right? It's not we're not trying to teach you here's how you do a plot out a television show. It's really it's just if you could put it up on a board with index cards, but if you wanted to make it certain And you can output everything and import it into Word and final draft and stop it.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:05
And the madness. stop the madness madness,

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:15:08
right. So that's that's the thing I'm kind of most excited about these days, you know, it's very, very into my TV business. So writers room cro.com.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:17
I'll put that all in the shownotes. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you. It

Jeffrey Alan Schechter 1:15:22
was so great talking to you too.

Alex Ferrari 1:15:25
I want to thank Jeff for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so so much, Jeff. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, just head over to the show notes at indie film hustle comm forward slash bps 063. There you'll have links to his book, and other links we discussed about in this episode. And guys, if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast.com. Leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out in the rankings on iTunes. leave a review, rate the show, let us know what you think. I really appreciate it guys. As always, keep on writing. No matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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