fbpx

Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 314: How to Get Things Done with David Allen

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 1:54
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Jason Buff.

Jason Buff 1:59
Without any further ado, let me get to David Allen, a quick introduction. He is the author of The Amazing book, Getting Things Done. It's a book that's influenced tons and tons of filmmakers out there, in addition to people, you know, he's spoken at Google, he's done TED talks, I'm really lucky to that he's come on the show, because he he influenced me a lot too. You know, as a creative person, I'm kind of all over the map and fairly disorganized. And his book really kind of lays out a plan so that you can, you know, basically get things done how that you can, you know, start working on things, not having a million things in your head. You know, especially for screenwriters, or people who are trying to produce a movie, it's hard to know, sometimes you know what to do next, you wake up and it's like, it's such a large enterprise writing a screenplay or producing a movie or whatever you want to do. It's so huge. It's like, what am I going to do today? What am i What's the one thing that I'm going to do today to start moving forward. And you know, his book, lays that out and talks about a lot of different things. And we'll get into that. So anyway, here's my interview with David Allen, for the people who, you know, are listening to this are mostly writers, producers, people that want to make independent films. And I was hoping that you could take a moment just to talk about the GTD system, the Getting Things Done system, and what the idea is behind it, the concepts behind it.

David Allen 3:24
Sure. One of the basic concepts, is that your heads for having ideas, but not for holding them. People actually don't need time they need space. I mean, how much time does it take to have a creative idea? Zero, but you need room. So what the GTD system is, is really was over the years, this sort of unfolded, as to what are the techniques that actually your that allow you to actually clear your head, get stuff off your mind without necessarily having to finish them? And still, you know, be committed to them? So how do you manage all those agreements with yourself in some external way, as opposed to having your head as an office, your heads a crappy office, by the way, it's a crappy studio really is I mean, it'll if you have stuff in your head, there's a part of you that thinks you should be doing all of it all the time. So your head is is consistently trying to multitask what you can't do. That is you can't focus, you know, with focused attention on more than one thing at a time. But there's a part of your head that's trying to do that if your heads the only place it's holding stuff. So just like people keep calendars, you know, I say, Well, why do you keep a calendar? Well, because my head can't do that. Well, why do you think your head can do everything else? And not that? It's like, well, doesn't make much sense. If you don't want to track stuff out of your head, throw away your calendar, don't be intellectually dishonest. So it's really about how do I externalize and objectify all of my work and work in the broadest sense call anything you want to get done? That ain't done yet. That's get cat food as well as you know, submit a new business plan as well as produce the next movie. So all of those things just need to be externalized. That that allows you to see the difference. And actually, you know, cognitively catch the difference but and of weight between dog food or cat food and produce movie in your head, believe it or not, they take up about the same amount of space. And either one will wake you up at three o'clock in the morning, when you actually can't do anything about it, your head is actually kind of a dumb terminal. And it really, it you'll be driven by latest and loudest by things in there. Right? So that's really all that's behind it. So but there are specific techniques, you can't just you can't just clear your head by meditating or drinking. You know? I know so you can leave your head or numb it out, but it won't clear it.

Jason Buff 5:56
Right! So can you talk about some of the techniques that you recommend?

David Allen 6:02
Sure, I'll give you the 22nd version. Okay, whoever is listening to this, hang on, ready, capture any potentially meaningful thing on your mind in some trusted place, that you then clarify exactly what that thing means sooner than later in terms of whether it's actionable, and if so what you're going to do about it, the next action and the outcome you're committed to, then step back and review those things in appropriate categories. So that some part of you is constantly maintaining an inventory of your gestalt of all of your different commitments on all the different horizons and trust your heart, or your gutters. So your pants or your spirit or whatever you trust, to make a good intuitive judgment call moment to moment about what you do. And that's it. Okay. Sorry, that'll, that'll take you two years to build that as a habit. That was a very quick explanation, even if you understand it, it's easy to understand, it takes two minutes to understand the model to about two days, if you actually were going to implement it, like literally, it literally empty everything out of your head and go through and make next action decisions about them and create an organizational structure that holds all that. And then about two years to make that habitual, so that you'd feel uncomfortable if you weren't doing it. Right.

Jason Buff 7:18
So you talk a lot about taking notes. I mean, what, in a typical day, do you just like? How do you organize all those things that are going on in your life? Or how should people try to do that to get it out of their head?

David Allen 7:32
Yeah, it's the capturing stuff is very different than organizing. So I've got, I've got notepad, right on my desk, right now has a phone number on it, I tried to call and nobody answered, or it was busy, but I gotta call them again, because they're gonna make an appointment about my eyes. So it's just on that notepad, if I if I don't finish that call that notepad by the way, they will go, they will get turned off that page and thrown into my in basket, in which case, then later on, you know, sooner than later, I will drive all that to empty by deciding, okay, where does that go? Where do I park a reminder about that, that I that I need to do. So capturing happens all day long, you know, just at any time, when in time, I you know, I carry a little notepad around in my pocket. And, you know, it's a great little app called Brain toss that I can just pop up my iPhone and talk into it, and it'll show up right into my email as a as a as a sound file, as well as, you know, text about it. Right? You know, any of that any of those things work. But, you know, I want to have the freedom to have a thought but not have to decide exactly what to do about it. Yeah, that actually allows and frees up my creative thinking process. I throw away probably half or three quarters of my notes, you know, but when I have I'm I'm not sure what they mean yet, but they might mean something significant. And so I don't want to lose any of those. But then I need to loop back around from another part of my brain and then assess that stuff and and get the executive about a call. Okay, David, what are you gonna do about that? If anything? What does that mean? That a restaurant you really want to track? Or is that a phone number that you need to put in your telephone and address? Is that something you still need to do about that? And those are the clarifying questions you need to ask yourself to decide what this stuff really means. So step one is to capture Step two is to clarify Step three is to organize the results of that thinking in that decision making. Okay, that's how that's how you get your kitchen under control by the way it looks like you know, tornado hit it you know oh my god I got guests coming over first thing you do is you recognize what's not on cruise control, you capture you identify stuff that's that you probably need to decide and do something about. Number two is you need to clarify is that still good food goes in the fridge is that trash that goes away? Does that is that dirty dish or is that clean? And then you organize those you put spices where spices go you put dirty dishes were dirty dishes go you put trash where trash goes.

Alex Ferrari 9:58
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

David Allen 10:07
Big Dog. But that's what you need to do with every email with every thought with every creative thing that pops into your head if you want to get it under control and not have it run you, right?

Jason Buff 10:18
Yeah, that's a huge thing, especially when it comes to, you know, screenwriting, and most of the writers, I know that they, and I'm also a writer, but you know, we're constantly with notebooks, because you never you, you have these ideas, and if they're gone, they you know, sometimes you're just like, you know, what, what was I, I had this amazing idea, and now it's gone, you know, and so we've gotten in the habit of taking notes. And what you know, I get a lot out of the GTD system is that you should be constantly taking notes, but about every aspect of your life so that you're not constantly in the state of being overwhelmed by thinking I've got a million things to do, I don't know what to do, I don't know what the next step is going to be. Right.

David Allen 11:01
And you obviously don't need to write down the 50,000 thoughts you have a day, you just need to write down the ones that aren't complete when you have them. There's still something I might need to do about that, as opposed to just grazing in your mind.

Jason Buff 11:16
Okay, now, what what is your feeling towards things like multitasking, or, you know, people who can kind of sit there and do like five things at the same time?

David Allen 11:27
They can't, they can rapidly switch. But whether they're actually increasing their performance by doing that is is in question. There's a couple of new books out that have come out in the last year of a lot of cognitive science research that that has basically proven, that's, you know, that's BS. And if you think your, that's going to actually increase your capability to be able to do that. Now, that said, if you can rapidly switch your focus with a placeholder, in other words, if you've sold or sort of interrupted me, Jason, you came in, and you suddenly walk out and say, Hey, David, by the way, could you do X, Y, and Z, let's talk for three minutes or whatever. And I was in the middle of doing something, as long as I have a placeholder for that thing I was doing. So I don't have to keep re remembering that I need to do that. In other words, I'll throw the notes or barbed wire work literally right into my own physical basket. And I'll turn around and then engage with you why, because I got to play somewhere that as soon as I stopped engaging with you, I can pick that right up. But that leaves my brain clear to not focus on you, and whatever's going on there, as opposed to trying to keep hanging on to it. So that's why external having an external brain and having the capability to be able to capture and placeholder stuff that's not finished, in some trusted place, will allow you to switch rapidly. If you don't do that, then you truly and they've proven this that you you do your cognitive function is sub optimal, you're trying to your switching costs are huge. In other words, you're trying to focus over there, but there's a part of you that's still hanging your focus back to where it was, that doesn't want to forget it. But then you're so you're not fully present, really, with any of that. And people can get pretty good at what it looks like. But this is a, you know, there's new, there's a lot of data out there now that that proves that's not true. They've even believe even found that that that even using hands free phones in your car is as dangerous statistically as texting, simply because of the switching costs in your mind. So you'll think you'll think you're driving in the you know, in the right lane, and the brain kind of will kid you to think that's true. And actually, that's visually what you see. But your mind went off somewhere else on that phone call that you were talking about. And it's actually that's actually not true. Surprise me to read that data. But that's the that's all that's what happens, your brain is really wasn't designed to hold on to more than about four meaningful things at once. It does that very well. By the way, that's how you survive on the savanna. That's how you can eat and not be eaten. But that rain took you know, however many millions of years it developed to be able to do that very well. So your brain can recognize brilliantly even better, way better than any computer yet. You walk into a room you recognize patterns, you see, that's a light, that's a chair, that's a person, that's a thing, that's a printer, and the computer still can't even do that yet. You're doing that all the time. By the way, your brain is brilliant at that using long term memory, pattern recognition, making sense out of your world, but it's totally present when it does that. What your brain can't do is remember where you left your keys.

Jason Buff 14:32
But you know, that was one of the really things I loved your TED talk when you were talking about how the brain has almost a you know, and correct me if this wasn't what you were saying. But the the brain's tendency to be a natural planner, to the point of or that we've kind of gotten away from the the way that the mind works, and we've started kind of changing the way that we accomplish goals in a somewhat unnatural Throw away.

David Allen 15:00
Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. It's fascinating to realize that, that, you know, what we automatically do and how we naturally plan is not how most people actually plan the more complex things. It's how you get out of bed, how you get dressed, it's how you, you know, cook dinner. But when people didn't say, Okay, now I need to, I need to, you know, be the production manager for a movie, how do I plan? You know, how do I plan budget and all this other stuff, and you know, anything anymore? Or even just your wedding? Or how about just a big party you want to give or your next vacation. And most people, you know, either don't then plan them at all, or they're sort of driven by whatever the latest and loudest thing is, as opposed to learning from ourselves in terms of how the brain really naturally does it. It was fascinating to me, just to uncover that,

Jason Buff 15:48
Right! So if somebody's you know, sitting there today, you know, working towards a project, let's say, for example, their their ideas, they they want to produce a film. But, you know, when it comes to screenwriting, and when it comes to producing, you know, something artistic, or, you know, films are basically like a little business anyway, you know, I mean, a lot of people don't think of it like that. But so we kind of get into this abyss where you don't know what to do next. And you're starting out, and you're kind of like, okay, I know, this is the end goal. And I know kind of where I'm at right now, how do I get, you know, from point A to point B to point Z, you know, and not just like, be completely overwhelmed all the time with I have 10 million things I have to do. Yeah.

David Allen 16:36
Well, with all of it, externalizing it getting out of your head, you know, get yourself a pen and paper, just pull, you know, pull up some computer file is pull up a Word doc and just dump it out. All the ideas, every single thing you might need to think about or whatever about to film or about what your project. I mean, that's that is part of the natural planning model is once you have a vision, and it's not met met by current reality, it creates this dissonance it says with God, I got to try to get I tried to get to close the gap between the vision I have in my head and where I am right now. So there's, you know, so you do a part A with that, which is okay, any potentially relevant ID I need to capture, get out of my head. And that's what most people refer to as brainstorming. But that's, and that's, you know, that's the first thing is don't, you know, don't let your brain get constipated by, you know, oh, I got a 10 million things to do, I don't know where to start, well write down where you might start. All the places you might start, you know, as Linus Pauling said, The best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas. So get them all out. Now, you don't leave them all out, just in terms of them willy nilly. You get them all out, and then there's a part of you that will then naturally start to recognize patterns and start to recognize components and sequences and priorities. Oh, that's more important than that, oh, yeah, I need to handle that, you know, first thing I really need to do is, and that's just good, sort of natural thinking. But you have to, you know, sort of go with the flow in terms of how your mind really thinks and capture that as opposed to it's got to be right before I write it down. That's death. And that's how we were taught. That's what planning was all about. If you if you know, if you're old as I am, you we were taught outlining in schools, you know, to write reports, and that's, you know, you, you sit down and start by trying to create an outline, but good luck, that that forces your mind to try to figure out what's Roman numeral one. And, you know, there's quite a bit of thinking you have to do before you even can trust what you think Roman numeral ones can be. And so giving yourself permission to have the freedom to be to use the creative aspect of who you are and how your brain works. I think that's, you know, it's our educational system that that sort of cultivated all that. But there is a way you can really make all that work. I mean, you know, come on the, you know, some of my biggest champions, were the Simpson writers. And that really, Joss Whedon, and I can talk about him because they mentioned it publicly. I mean, Josh, in Fast Company article said, Look, you know, when he when he did the last, you know, when he shot the much ado about nothing in his backyard, he said, wow, you know, if it wasn't for David Allen's next action concept, I never could have done that in the three days we did it. So, you know, and, you know, Howard Stern is a huge fan of mine really changed his life, he would tell you that he's spoken about it on you know, on the air for months, right once he wants, you know, he sort of got coached with our with our model is really freedom because what it does is it frees up space for these guys. That's that's what the creative people want. That it actually frees up space for anybody. But you know, what you do with that space is up to you. If you're a rock musician, you'll use space to get more music ideas and to make sure you finish the songs instead of just starting. You know, if you if you're a 55 year old executive that's about to merge with another company. You'll use space to be more strategic and in your negotiations and you're thinking about, you know, priorities

Alex Ferrari 19:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

David Allen 20:08
And if you're a writer or screenwriter or you know, if you're an indie producer, what would you do with more space? You know, there's a whole lot of things you could do with more space, I would imagine. But the space is what you need. And, you know, all GTD, the Getting Things Done modeled in bits, okay, here's how you get space. And you don't have to go very far to know where to start. Just Just ask yourself, What's on your mind? You know, Jason, if I ask you, Hey, if you if you weren't talking to me right now, what? Where would you mind go? What's the most on your mind? Right, yeah. Whatever you answer is very probably going to be something that's hung up and you're the bottleneck. The reason it's on your mind is because there's some decision about it you haven't made, or you haven't parked the results of that thinking in some, in some place your trust?

Jason Buff 20:56
Right! Yeah, I mean, I'm your, the book is pretty much for people like me, I think that, you know, I have too many things going on in my head. And, you know, it's, it's really helpful just to say, okay, you know, I went through, when you're doing the TED talk, you had the thing where you take notes, and you get all the things out of your head, that you're, that are kind of occupying your time, and then taking that and figuring out, you know, what, exactly are you going to, you know, what are the what are the next actions you're gonna take? And the really important thing, for me was the concept of what can you actually do right now, and what you're just sitting there worrying about, unless you can actually take action on it right now, there's no point in worrying about it, you know, put it in, put it there and know that you have to do it, but don't sit there and like, kind of go, you know, churn the wheels over and over thinking about that and focus on things you can do.

David Allen 21:49
Sure, there are no problems, there are only projects. So you'll only call something a problem. If you think something ought to be fixed about it, you're just not willing to figure out or take a risk to try to do that. Right, right. I mean, so taking anything that's an issue or problem that you need to decide, look, to your point, can you do something about this or not? 90% of the time, you probably can and just haven't figured that out, or you haven't sat down and force yourself to make that decision. Wait a minute, what more information do I need? Wait a minute, who do I need to talk to about this? What do I need to do to move the needle if I if I was going to pay you a million bucks, just to start making progress on that problem that issue that opportunity? Where would you go right now physically, what would you do? And that kind of rigor, you know, to your point of that the next action thinking is so powerful, it's so mundane. And yet, so, you know, it's the silver bullet.

Jason Buff 22:50
Now, one of the things that I really enjoyed about the book is also the concept of tricks. And, you know, some people now would just would refer to that as hacks. For, you know, organizing, can you talk about a few of your favorite hacks or tricks for, you know, for implementing the GTD system in your life?

David Allen 23:09
One of the best is the two minute rule. Anything you can finish, once you decide the next action, if you can actually take that action within two minutes, if you're ever going to do that action at all, do it right, then it'll take you longer to actually stack and track it and look at it again, than it would be to finish it when it's in your face. If you just did that around your house, or your apartment, or your flat or wherever you live, if you just started to implement the two minute rule, flashlight that needs a battery, it would only take you two minutes to go get that battery and stick it in there. You'd be amazed how much cleaner your house it would be if that's all you got out of what I did is the two minute rule. That's one of the most popular hacks have emerged out of all of this. Go ahead, sorry. Yeah. You know, there's, it's not really a hack. It's just it's an absolutely necessary principle, which is just write stuff down, have an in basket, have a physical injury, throw stuff in there, and then get an empty every, you know, 24 to 48 hours. I mean, that there's there's no bigger, better habit. People say, Gee, David, what rituals and habits have I installed that's laid the main one. You know, there's all kinds of stuff I hate to have to think about and have to decide about. But because I'm so now addicted to getting my in basket empty, it forces me to make those decisions so I can empty it. It's one of the best, that's one of the best tricks in the world, in terms of being productive, because people just avoid next action decisions about all kinds of things. So they just spread stuff around in their life. And then it starts to create this ambient stress, because it's yelling at them all the time. And they just no mouth to it.

Jason Buff 24:48
Now, can you just go a little bit more in depth with the next action concept? Just for a second?

David Allen 24:55
Yeah, well, you know, write everything down that's on your mind. Alright, then take each one of those things. One at a time ago, okay? If this is something to move on at all, it may have been just a harebrained idea or something else. But is there something to do about this? What specifically physically visible action would would I need to take to start moving toward closure on whatever this thing is? If it's if you wrote down cat food, what's your next action? Oh, I need to buy cat food. Or Great. Do you know where to buy it? Yeah, I do. Where they do you keep a list of stuff to buy when you go there? Yeah, right up on the fridge. Great. Go stick it there. Cat food on the posted on the refrigerator and now you're in then it's off your mind? Some fournisseurs. Okay, did that. But you have to decide what's the next step on that. Okay. Okay. New indie movie idea. Fabulous. What's the next action? Oh? Well, I don't even not sure how to start. How would you figure it out? You know, I want to talk to somebody who actually produced it in the field. I have never done one before. And I should talk to him. Great. How would you? How would you plumb their brain? Maybe we should have lunch for them. Great. What's your next action? Set up a lunch? How would you do that? Send an email to send their phone call to me. Let me let me shoot him an email. Great. How long would that take? 30 seconds go. Suddenly, you know, suddenly you're off and running. But you still haven't the foggiest idea how to do an ad, you just made a decision that got you in the driver's seat of this situation, as opposed to feeling the victim of now over committing and having a beat you up.

Jason Buff 26:35
Yeah, and it's so simple. But it actually I mean, it does completely change everything. You start thinking like that.

David Allen 26:41
I call it the magic of the mundane.

Jason Buff 26:46
Do you actually have a Do you have to have a physical exam? I mean, you talk about your in basket and you know, everything that I do if I have papers, it just becomes out of control here. You know, I do everything virtual but you think it's it's better to have physical there.

David Allen 27:01
You still have a physical driver's license. You still you still get some bills in the mail, you certainly get certain some physical mail you get FedEx, it's

Jason Buff 27:10
Not well, I'm an expat like you. I live in. I live in Mexico. So you know, we don't get mail where I live, but I get your point.

David Allen 27:19
Yeah, but you know, believe it or not, there's a lot of stuff that I need to print out from my computer and throw it into my in basket, because there's stuff that I need to do or think about that. And I want to I want to have a written, you know, thing to that helps me think about it, you know, or I'm halfway through something, and I need to remind myself that that's not finished yet. And I need to come back to and I'll print it out and throw it in my in basket, which then is a trigger to then oh, yeah, let me pick that up and keep going with that. Certainly a lot less paper now than there was, you know, 20 30 years ago for sure. Right? But even even so, you know, where do you throw back, you get flashlights that get dead batteries. I throw those in my own basket, if I don't have the batteries in anything. And if you take any kind of notes when you're on the run, what do you do with if you're doing any kind of creative writing by hand? You know, what do you do with those notes? You know, and if you're taking notes on a phone call, right? You ever do that? Yeah. Yeah. What do you do with those notes?

Jason Buff 28:27
Well, I just usually I just use Evernote. So I'm just I type faster than I write. But I've also got a, you know, a notebook. Whenever I go to a store, I just buy like five or six notebooks and just have just have it there, you know, because you'll you'll be able to jot stuff down.

David Allen 28:42
Well, you know, if I were to sit down next to you, deskside you know, Jason, we'd I'd say, I'd say Do you still have bigger those notebooks? Probably not. Well, that's fine. It means you process them. That'd be my point. If you still had them lying around, because there was still stuff in there that you hadn't decided what it meant. And it was still potentially pulling on you to make a decision about it. You know, that's that's unhealthy. spiral notebooks are dangerous, you know, because of that. I use a spiral notebook, but I use one that's perfect. So you can I saw I tear it off so it stays empty. Yeah, you know, but the stuff I tear off goes into my in basket if it's if it's if I can't finish it in that moment. So I still need a physical basket if you can get by with that one. They but there's no there's no right or wrong about any of this. It says okay, got anything in your head. And if you do, there's some because of some something you have not captured somewhere.

Jason Buff 29:42
Now when you say you've got it in your head, I mean, like subconscious thought I was wondering how you feel about like your subconscious thought.

Alex Ferrari 29:51
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jason Buff 29:59
So how is that affecting you? I mean, are you are the things that are in your head, like, you know, if you've got like 20 things that you're kind of like organizing, trying to keep track of? Are you conscious that you're doing that? Or is that something that you're just kind of doing? And it's affecting, you know, just your mental, you know, alertness or being able to be present?

David Allen 30:23
I'm not sure exactly. Obviously, if it's unconscious, you're not conscious of it. I'm not aware. So. But essentially what I do, because I've externalized all of these commitments, then it frees me up to just trust me intuitive judgments. And that intuitive judgment is being matured and constantly, I'm thinking all the time, I'm constantly reassessing, what should I do? Where's the thing? Where what do I feel, you know, like, I need to put my energy and focus right now, you know, that my system doesn't get rid of that it frees you up to do that frees you up to be making good intuitive choices, instead of just being driven by the latest and loudest, and then Lipson and hoping you know, so you want to move from hope to trust basically, in terms of you just your judgement about what you're doing. But um, you know, I'm constantly thinking of what should I do now? When Where's where's the? Where's the optimal place for me? Should I take a nap? Should I have a beer? Should I? Should I go hang out with my dog? Do I need to take a walk? You know, should I be, you know, cranking on this, you know, slide deck that I need to upgrade right now. So I don't know, if it's your unconscious, I think that I think you don't have to go very far just to start to pay attention to what has your attention? What do you then need to do to take that pressure off your head? You know, what's the next thing that should be telling you what to do the weather that's coming where that comes from, you know, the Oracle or God or, or your your liver or I don't know, whatever the source of intuitive knowing is, you know, who knows. So this is about about, you know, sort of structuring your life in some ways. Matter of fact, a lot of people are uncomfortable with how unstructured getting things done is because they want to feel more confidence that they that they really nailed it all down and can and can tack it all down and nothing's gonna move, you know, and come out from under them. Good luck.

Jason Buff 32:14
With that, that was what I was going to ask you about, you know, that, that you talked about the false sense of control that you get from, you know, having everything in your head, and there is that aspect of control? That I mean, that's counter that resistance that people are just like, oh, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to stop having all this some, I don't want to put it on a piece of paper. Because that might mean that something might happen to it. Or it might you know,

David Allen 32:39
You'll make that happen, you'll make you feel more out of control about how out of control you really are. That people get mad at me for their list. I go excuse me, it ain't my list, dude. It's yours. You know, your choices? Where do you want to track that stuff? And I just, and I'm not into convincing anybody, I'm just look, I'm just sharing information with you. Right? And prove me wrong, implement these processes. And I absolutely guarantee you without fail, you'll feel more in control and more focused, so that you can deal with that and have more mental and cognitive space to do the more meaningful things.

Jason Buff 33:18
How did how did you go upon? How did you come upon this? I mean, when you have in your life, where you also kind of just like one of the people that was overwhelmed with stuff and had to I mean, how did you discover this system?

David Allen 33:30
Ah, I've just been a, you know, I'm a freedom guy. And I love I love ClearSpace. Right? I've always been attracted to the Zen aesthetic, you know, sort of the negative space, or, you know, I was I read all of Suzuki and watts, by the time I'm finished high school. So I've always loved that kind of minimalist aesthetic. But then, you know, when I got into sort of the personal growth game, and you know, how do you grow yourselves? And how do you find enlightenment and all that good stuff, you know, this is California in the 60s and 70s. and discovered that actually, there are things you can actually learn to do that actually give you more of a sense of personal freedom, and more of a sense of space, and a whole lot that had to do with your agreements. You know, that was a big aha, in the personal growth loop, which was, you know, how do you manage your agreements, and what's the price you pay? If you break an agreement?

Jason Buff 34:22
Then what do you mean by agreement?

David Allen 34:24
Well, if you just said compromises, you know, the agreement, you make call Hey, David, let's meet at you know, let's do this podcast on you know, this date this time. That's an agreement. I say, Yeah, I just made an agreement. An agreement just says any commitments, you've got to do something whether an all agreements or with yourself, many of them involve other people, but they're all with yourself. You've agreed with yourself, you're gonna do that. You tell yourself I need cat food gets me in an agreement. You know, yeah, I just agreed with myself that yes, I'm going to get cat food somehow in some way. So understanding that When you keep an agreement feels fabulous improves your self confidence. If you break an agreement, they will undermine your self confidence automatically. It's an automatic price you pay that you disintegrate trust. If you didn't show up, you know, or if you you know, there are people I love dearly, but I don't trust for them, and I can throw them to show up, when they're going to tell me they're going to show up just based upon that, because nothing wrong. I don't judge that I just that's just data. But I don't trust them. I don't trust them to keep to, you know, they tell me something, I doubt they're going to do it and shouldn't organize my life accordingly. But but they're all of these agreements with yourself, what happens then, if a broken agreement automatically creates stress. So all those things you've told yourself to do, and most people have between 30 and 100 projects, and between 150 and 200. Next actions, if they actually sat down and truly inventoried their commitments personally and professionally, while the things they think they should do and told themselves they they need to do. So if you want to get rid of the stress of broken agreements, either don't make the agreement, don't throw the list away, say, oh, you know, I'll live spontaneously, you know, good luck. or complete the agreement, go finish it all. Of course, if he went and finished everything on your list in two, three days, you'd have a bigger list because you get so excited having done all that you'll take on bigger, more incomplete stuff. But the real key is, how do I how do I kind of renegotiate those agreements? See if you said, Hey, David, let's do this podcast here. And then I came back said, you know, I agreed to that before, but something came up really, really critical that I have to handle can we do it another time? And you go, yeah, then I renegotiated the agreement, I don't have a broken agreement. But you can't renegotiate agreements with yourself, you can't remember you made that's again, why keeping track of all of this stuff, so that you can look at it and go, No, I'm just gonna do this podcast with Jason right now. That's the best thing to be doing. But the only reason I can be present talking to you right now is because not long ago, I looked at everything else that I might would could should ought to do and said yet. But I couldn't I can't do that in my head. I could remember about four things. And that's about it. Everything else just becomes this huge jumble and jungle. But once I've got them out and have all these decisions made about the actions and just all I have to do is plan for those Action Lists, look at my calendar doesn't take very long, and just feel comfortable that this is it. Nothing, I'm not missing anything. Now I may I may have made a mistake, you know, maybe talking to you is the wrong thing to do. And I'll find out live and learn. But at least I'm confident that this is the next mistake I want to make.

Jason Buff 37:36
That makes sense. Yeah, definitely. Now, you mentioned Howard Stern. And I know Howard Stern's a really big into Transcendental Meditation. And a lot of this seems to be influenced by Eastern thought. Was that something

David Allen 37:51
Eastern thought just came up with the same thoughts I did.

Jason Buff 37:57
They all read your book, you know. mean, just the concept of you know, meditating and emptying your mind in that way. And being present. And you even mentioned in your book, the mind like water? Concept?

David Allen 38:13
Yeah. Well, you know, that was I had, you know, several years in the martial arts, you know, and got a black belt many years ago and in karate, and there's, there's quite a bit of training about how do you clear your head in the martial arts, Bruce Lee was the guy who was sort of made famous, this whole idea of be like water or grasshopper from his guru, because, you know, the idea is don't over under react to be totally open to the to the present moment, you know, be soft and hard as needed be, don't over under react. And that's, that's the idea is that you don't want to take one meeting into the next you don't want to take home to work. You want to be able to be present, really, the whole idea of GTD is about being present, that's your optimal productive state, whether that's the best way to hit a golf ball or tuck your kids into bed at night, or make spaghetti. You just want to be there when you're doing it. As opposed to having your your cognitive function split. So that's, in a way, this is just a mechanical process. It's not something to believe it's not something it's not some cognitive thing, go. Look, the brain sciences is now validated all of this. And it took me 35 years and learning it on the street and watching spending 1000s of hours with some of the best and brightest and sharpest people on the planet and busiest and watching what happened when they started to implement this and how much it changed their life and their work without exception. So that's why I wrote the book because I think it's a better right manual.

Jason Buff 39:44
Now what what were the Are there any books you can aside from your own book? Are there any books that were out there that influenced you and you could recommend as well or any resources out there that people could look

David Allen 39:56
There were there were a lot of them over the years I you know I

Alex Ferrari 40:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

David Allen 40:09
One great book, by the way for especially for creative types would be Steven Pressfield. Book. The War of Art. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great one fabulous book. And that's what and the two I mentioned, by the way, if anybody's interested in the cognitive science stuff, I mean, it really is quite fascinating. And to have shown up in the last few months, one's called the, the organized mind, by Dan Lemington, le VI, ti n. He's head of cognitive science research at McGill University in Quebec, or wherever in Canada, that is, and a Belgian named Theo Compernolle, Compernolle has just written a book called Brain chains to words like chains around your brain brain chains. And, you know, he's he, he was a child psychiatrist, and then an MD, and then I got into cognitive science. And that has been, he's doing quite a bit of executive coaching in terms of stress management, simply because he became fascinated with this whole idea of the brain as a tool. And he's, he's accumulated aggregated, 600 different studies, from the cognitive science field and world in the last decade or so. And, you know, and kind of reads the riot act, everybody about multitasking, and what the digital world and social media and so forth are, are the addiction that that's making so easy for people to get invested in and engaged in, that's been stopping a lot of other you know, real cool stuff, like real conversations and real relationships. And he's got a he's not against technology, he just saying, be careful, because this is highly addictive, and that they've now proven it love truly is an addiction. That if you if you're if your social media, even just having your your smartphone in your pocket, wondering, who's texting you creates a dopamine rush. So you literally are getting the same kinds of things that you do with an opium or heroin.

Jason Buff 42:23
Right, it seems like, you know, the older I get, the more I realized that my life is determined by the little things that give me a little dopamine rush, you know, like, the career that you choose, and the people that you are around and all the little thing, you know, even the the color of paint that you choose in your house or whatever, it's like everything is determined by the that little rush you get from it.

David Allen 42:45
There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, exercise does that so you can't fault exercise. Which is which? Which are the healthier dopamine rushes, you know, what do you want to get addicted to, you want to get addicted to working out, you want to get addicted to, you know, you know, in Fetta means, right.

Jason Buff 43:06
I also like the idea of, you know, you were talking about how you, you want to write stuff down because your future self is not going to be in the same state of mind that you're in. And always, you know, you always need to be somewhat aware of, you know, how your brain changes from maybe one time of day to another time of day, or how you're in a certain kind of state of mind, where you're being very creative and coming up with ideas and appreciate the fact that maybe later on in the day, or maybe whenever that's gonna kind of disappear. And you're leaving kind of like future notes or like, note to future yourself, you know, because it's funny, I had a friend who would go out and drink a lot. And he would always leave himself voice messages. And he would wake up the next day and be like, Okay, what, what's going on? And he'd be like, Dear future, Mike. This is what's smart today.

David Allen 43:59
Welcome, you know, I think it's really intelligent people that realize they're only inspired, and Intel, and then you're only inspired and brilliant, you know, at very random moments in your life. And, you know, so what you want to do is if you're lazy and smart, what you want to do is capture those potentially useful, inspirational intelligent things. So that when you're kind of thick and dumb, you do smart things. So you know that yeah, it's the it's the kind of thick and dumb people that think they're smart all the time. The strange thing is, is that when you are inspired and have an inspired thought that that place that that we seem to operate from there has no sense of space and time you're in your zone. So it doesn't it's not kind of that consciousness is not so well aware of history, or future. It thinks it thinks you'll be inspired and smart all the time. So it isn't was intelligent of your friend to realize, hey, when I'm in school I heard the future me may not be so inspired. So I better grab that and throw it at him. Yeah.

Jason Buff 45:09
I'm always surprised if I go back and look at my notes. Sometimes I came up with, like, you know, I write every day I write in the morning. And that's like, when I'm focused coffees going and everything. And I always shot, you know, I go back sometimes. And I'm like, Yeah, I remember everything that I wrote down, and I'll go back and see those notes. And it's like, oh, wow, that was a really great idea. But I just, you know, for whatever reason, it wasn't there anymore. You know, the, my ability to recall it just had gone away. So can I want to wrap it up? Because I know you, you know, have things to do? Can you just talking to people who are out there? In our audience, it's filmmakers and screenwriters and people who are working on projects? Can you you know, what do you think, is a good idea for them to start doing what can they do today to really start moving forward and not being frustrated and getting their projects, you know, on the road to being, you know, completed?

David Allen 46:05
Well, come on, I would be remiss and not saying get my new version of getting things done. And read it, if you haven't yet. I mean, it truly it is the manual for all of that, and then we'll, it will be pretty evergreen for lots of years to come in terms of, you know, what we've uncovered and what we've discovered about it. So that's, that's essentially a, you know, a great resource. That's, that is a way that is a way to start. But quite frankly, it just make sure you've got some, you know, the take up, you might want to take a few hours. At some point, if you can carve that out of your life, and say, Okay, I'm gonna do this dumb thing called sit down and write down every single thing that's on my mind. You know, anything about anything, you know, little things, big things, personal things, professional things, creative things, anything and truly keep going. You know, most people can do that in about an hour or two leashing get most of it. And then, you know, go through each one of those and say, Okay, what is exactly my next action? On this? What's my next action on that? What's my next action on that? So just capturing, and then applying the sort of next action, cognitive rigor to these things? And then you're gonna have to, then you'll have to get creative to decide what do I want to do? If I can't take that action right now? Where do I want to park? And how do I create a list? How do I create some sort of organizational system, if you don't have one already, you'd need to then go through that process. So ideally, you you know, set up a whole day, get my book, because I actually walk people through this exercise, you know, blow by blow part in part two of the book. That's one of the reasons I wrote it that way, so that people didn't have to hire a coach to walk them through this. But you're not born doing this. And it doesn't come, you know, automatically, you actually have to sit down and put cognitive horsepower to this game. And it does take an investment on the front end, doesn't take a lot of time and energy to maintain it. As a matter of fact, it's much less than what most people are trying to do once you actually get this setup, but it does take an investment on the front end.

Jason Buff 48:07
Well, David, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's a pleasure to have you here with us today.

David Allen 48:15
Hey, it was fun. Jason was great.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 313: Building Long-Term Filmmaking Revenue Streams with Brady Trautman and Alex Blue

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:08
I like to welcome the show Brady Troutman and Alex, how are you guys doing?

Brady Trautman 0:15
Good. Thanks for having us on the show today.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
I said it right right. I said the name right.

Brady Trautman 0:19
Yeah!

Alex Ferrari 0:21
For a second I went, did I say the wrong name again. It's been a long day, guys. I apologize. Hi, guys. How are you guys doing, man? Thanks so much for being on the show.

Brady Trautman 0:32
Yeah, we're doing good. We're, we're currently in Lake Tahoe and California. And the seasons are transitioning from spring to summer. So we're kind of in in a really good spot and excited for the summer in the lake.

Alex Ferrari 0:43
So very tough life is what you're saying? Very tough life.

Brady Trautman 0:46
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 0:47
It's rough.

Brady Trautman 0:47
Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 0:48
very tough.

Brady Trautman 0:48
It's rough.

Alex Ferrari 0:49
So, It's rough out there. It's rough out there in Lake Tahoe, the main streets of Lake Tahoe. It's tough.

Brady Trautman 0:53
Yeah. Pretty bad, actually. But

Alex Ferrari 0:57
Wow.

Brady Trautman 0:59
Sorry.

Alex Ferrari 1:01
So, um, I want to get you guys on the show. Because you've had you, I've had other you know, youtubers on the show, and other people who kind of use this futurpreneur method. Not specifically that you use it for me. But you might have modeled it after some, someone like yourselves, who do that kind of like building content and creating multiple revenue streams and servicing a niche audience and all that kind of stuff. But you're very, you have never really kind of spoken to anyone with a niche like yours, which is boating. And I want you to explain a little bit more. But how did you guys leave the normal world and go straight into like boating around the world and just following basically doing what everybody wants to do other than like, going off and joining the circus? I think basically swit sailing around the world essentially would be on the top of people's like, dream to do list. So how did you guys go, I'm assuming you didn't just come out of the womb like that. Got your boat at five and just kept going? From what I read. You guys started in the normal world and said, You know, I'm tired. So can you tell us how you got in there?

Brady Trautman 2:06
Yeah, for sure. I guess I'll start first because Alex joined the journey a little bit later on. And she had her own journey before we met. So I grew up in Orlando, Florida, and I was going to college there. And my brother at the time was up in Seattle, Washington. He's 10 years older than me. And he had a web design company that basically he left it. And we were both getting into sailing at the same time. So neither of our parents were into sailing, we didn't grew up sailing. But we were both getting into sailing at the same time. He was 32. And I was 22. And we ended up getting a 53 foot sailboat. And the plan was to basically hang out Mexico for a little bit, and maybe eventually cross into the South Pacific and go to Tahiti, because it was just like an incredibly big dream. And so that happened, I had one semester left of college, and we made a decision that we were going to leave Mexico and sail out into the South Pacific. And I took out all my student loans that I could sign up for as many classes as I could took out all my student loans and then dropped all the classes and figured I'd use my student loans to go to university of life, I guess. Wow. So yeah, that was that was in 2010. And I was only supposed to help him because he was kind of a little bit in a better financial position to travel long term than I was at the time. So I was supposed to help him for like three weeks, the passage from Mexico to the mark cases was about three weeks long. And we got the mark cases. And they were like, oh, a couple more months. I'll say a couple more months. And then we got to Tahiti, and it was a couple more months and then yeah, that eventually turned into 10 years and a circumnavigation so that that's kind of the the journey and then along the way, a lot of things happened, you know, are we ran out of money a lot, of course, but our family and friends we had a blog and photos, but it wasn't enough for our family and friends. They were always just still like, What the fuck are you guys doing? Like, I don't get it? Like, are you camping? Or got a motorboat? Like does your boat have an engine? It's a sailboat, but just people didn't really understand. So we just started filming our journey, little clips at a time and uploading small short videos to YouTube. The first videos were even like pictures with music behind them. So they were just complete like family slideshow kind of things. Which is great. Our family loved it. But then as we started to film and progress, other people started watching. And it was kind of at a really interesting time in YouTube where it was new and fresh. And it wasn't like click Beatty. It wasn't really you didn't have to try as hard if you had good content. It got put in front of people naturally I think so yeah, people kept watching and we eventually saw that there was a opportunity to make like a full on production from it. And keep filming and keep sailing and and yeah, here we are now.

Alex Ferrari 4:54
And Alex How did you leave the normal world enjoy this psychic, psychotic pirate on his Island

Alex Blue 5:02
Well, I got pretty lucky Actually, I don't know if I ever quite entered the normal world. Nice play. Yeah. In in college, I started Yeah, I was studying like media. And so I started my own film and photo company and got basically what the goal of wanting to travel I had this random dream I don't know where I got it from, but I really wanted to work in Central and South America with my camera. So pretty much once I graduated, I made my way down there and was able to get paid pay my way with my camera. And one summer I ended up on in Colombia, and I got offered a position on a sailboat that sailed between Cartagena, Colombia and San Blas islands, Panama. And so I lived aboard this 5052 foot catamaran for a summer and we would take like 20 backpackers from Panama, spent five days in San Blas Salem to Cartagena and then have a couple days pick up 20 more backpackers from Colombia sailing back to Panama. And anyone that's ever been on a 52 foot sailboat will understand how ridiculous it is to have 20 plus people sleeping on a boat like not just people but backpackers. Yeah. So it was pretty much a big party. But it was beautiful. I mean, yeah, I slept outside every single night in the hammock for the entire summer and pretty much fell in love with living on a boat and started to see other people on boats to at the anchorages and realized that people were living on their boats and that cruise cruisers were a category of people that I have come to know a lot about and become one myself. But yeah, pretty much after that came back to Tahoe for a winter. And then a sailing friend of mine sent me a Delos episode on the YouTube channel and said, Hey, I think you'll like this. So I gave it a watch. And they were Yes, sailing, scuba diving, which I had also been getting into and filming, which is pretty much all the things that my life revolved around as well. So I just sent them a random email. And they actually now in retrospect, I know that they get, you know, I don't know, probably 1000 of those a year or something like that if people didn't want to join through with them. But for whatever reason, luck was on my side and Brady's older brother Brian caught the email and said, cool. If you want to be in Africa and South Africa in two weeks, then you can cross the Atlantic with us. So I just went again, I didn't have to like quit a job and sell my house or anything. a transitional phase. Yeah, I already worked for myself. And I was just floating around anyways. So what I did there, and then within like a month we were we were dating and yeah, I like to say our first date was crossing the South Atlantic.

Brady Trautman 7:47
How romantic?

Alex Ferrari 7:48
Yes, it's very intense. I'm imagining it's an intense first date, to say the least

Brady Trautman 7:53
I was I was away, I was away at a wedding. And my brother called me He's like, hey, this guy, Alex, he's a videographer. He's a sailor. And like, you know, we're looking for crude to go from South Africa to Brazil. Like, what do you think, man? And then we had we had a video call like Alex isnt, a dude. Perfect. guy was good here in a week and a half. And she made the decision. And then yeah, we were we sailed on that book for three and a half years together before we moved to town.

Alex Ferrari 8:21
You know, it's, it's, it's insane. Because I love the way you guys talk about these trips, like, it's, it's just like, I'm going down to get a cup of coffee, like we're going to just going across the Atlantic, or I just want to go to Tahiti, you know, in going into the South Pacific, like when I think of the South Pacific, all I think about is just like this massive amount of water. And this and this little little island called Tahiti or Fiji, or you know, like, like Hawaii is essentially a monster complex comparatively. And you're like, yeah, you know, just just gonna just keep going and I love that mentality because for you, that's normal. To me, that's insane. But in a great way, and I admire that so much because you are truly living you living the dream because you guys are doing what you love to do. You're making a living doing it, you're helping other people, you're you're providing value to people around the world. And you can literally travel the world on your own dime and do whatever the hell you want to do. You have complete freedom and I think that's I think we all that's the one that's going to the you know, running away with the circus, essentially, we're gonna go with the circus, but I'm wondering

Brady Trautman 9:36
thank you for saying that. I think I don't know after doing it for 10 years. I definitely got a little bit jaded and you know, as pretty as it is like anything in movies or documentaries it or series whatever. It feels incredible and you're watching it. It's like oh my god is the dream but there's there's hardships and there's a lot of difficulties that go along with living on a small sailboat with five people at a time. It's amazing. I wouldn't trade it. For the world, and I'm so grateful that I did it. It's just yeah, it's nice to hear again, people from the outside, like you say stuff like that cuz it's like yeah, I'm really lucky. I was able we were able to do that.

Alex Ferrari 10:11
Yeah, absolutely. And but, you know, I couldn't look you're traveling to South Pacific you're traveling, you know, across it, you know shits gonna happen, you know, I'm imagining it's just that like crystal blue sales and everything's running in the dolphins are jumping over next to you like the entire way. You know, I'm assuming you run out of money, you run out of food, you run out of gas, or whatever you're doing, like things happen, like, oh, there's a hurricane showing up. Like, I have to imagine things like that happens. But that's life. But you're but you've taken life by the kind of horns and just done what you want to do with it. Which is, believe me, I talked to a lot of people. And I talked to filmmakers, which we're all nuts. We're all we're all nuts, filmmakers. And filmmakers are insane people. I mean, I'm insane. We're all insane. My family looks at me like, what do you do? 20 years, 25 years. And you make and you do what? And now they see me on YouTube. So now they're just like, oh, he talks to famous people. I'm like, Yeah, okay, that's sure. That's what I do. That's all I do in my life. And I was that Sure, why not? But there's an insanity that comes along with being a filmmaker, but you guys just amped up that insanity. Like, instead of shooting a movie, let's shoot a movie on the open sea for months at a time. And oh, let's open up a YouTube channel. And you can like, Oh, my egg. You can never leave set. Yeah, exactly. It's always going. So when you guys started doing the videos that sent back to your family, because they just wanted to make sure you were alive and doing well. How, by the way, how do you communicate like carrier pigeon? Or like How? Like, I'm assuming the cell reception? I'm assuming the cell reception is not so well down there, especially 11 years ago?

Brady Trautman 11:52
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 11:53
In the middle? Yeah.

Brady Trautman 11:55
I mean, yeah, the best way to communicate really was, was when we get to an island and you'd find a random computer, somebody would have a computer with internet and you'd sign in checking emails. Really, that was it. I mean, we didn't even have cell phones weren't really a thing through the South Pacific in 2010. Now you can find the cell phone pretty much anywhere you go. And you buy a SIM card, a local SIM card, and you can get you can get calls and data and stuff. But back then yeah, it'd be months before we'd we'd reach out or do anything and even uploading stuff to YouTube, right? Like there was times where, where we couldn't we leave the laptop in like a cafe somewhere for like two weeks to try and upload, like a 500 megabit video, and it just wouldn't upload. So we found we buy the small little USB thumb drive, put an episode on it, ship it across to my friends in Florida, and they would upload it for us and then post it for us. So that was faster than actually uploading a video at that time.

Alex Ferrari 12:51
Jesus. And you certainly you started doing this for your family, essentially. And you just opened up a YouTube channel just like start doing things. But then eventually, people just started finding it. And you're This is about 11 years ago?

Brady Trautman 13:02
Yeah, yeah, really, it was 2010 is when we first started uploading the little picture slideshows, and then 2011 there was a bit more video involved. And then, yeah, I think 2012 is when we really decided I think we we ended up getting a check from YouTube at some point for like $18 or $20. I don't remember the amount and we're like, holy shit, what is this? Like they made a mistake or something. And we didn't realize that they were monetizing our videos. So we realized that there was a way to make money on youtube, even if it was small. That was like a case of beer, which is awesome at that time when you have zero money. So yeah, we just kept doing it. And then once we realized that there was a way to grow it, it was growing and growing. And we found out that as long as we were consistent, and we were ourselves and being authentic and honest, and we just kept growing. And then the real real change happened when one of our one of our followers, one of our viewers on YouTube reached out and said, hey, there's this new thing called Patreon. It's perfect for you guys, you should check it out. And it must have been the first six months patron was was a lot. And we signed up for a Patreon account. And then yeah, people really, really understood that because there's something really special about giving directly back to an artist or somebody you like it's a personal connection, instead of giving it to a cable company or a network, and maybe it'll trickle down to them, like literally giving $5 or $10 to that creator. It has an emotion attached to it. And that's 100% why we were able to be successful.

Alex Ferrari 14:30
So so with YouTube, you start making some money with it you realize that there's an actual something there at least it's you know, beer money, we can work for beer money, basically. Yeah. You start working with beer money. And I put what Alex At what point did you like coming? What year did you jump in with him?

Alex Blue 14:46
Let's see. It was 2016 or 17.

Alex Ferrari 14:51
I think 17 March. So you guys were off and running already. The YouTube channel had already been Oh, yeah.

Brady Trautman 14:56
Yeah, we were full on by then we're just started. Like probably right then is when we started making a profit, I would say, like our expenses were paid for. So like, the boat was paid for insurance, food fuel, like cameras, it was kind of breakeven, like our lifestyle was paid for. And then right around that point that Alex joined us when it kind of kept going, and we were able to pay ourselves $500 a month.

Alex Ferrari 15:21
I mean, obviously. It's all Alex is 100% but Alex joy, the videography got better. The storytelling got better. The editing got better. Yeah, perfect.

Alex Blue 15:33
No, I mean, it's actually funny. Yeah, to look back, because when I once I realized I was going, I didn't watch any more episodes or anything to me, it felt weird to know that I was going to show up and know these people and they weren't going to know me or anything. So I kind of just went and didn't really look into it much shows like they seem legit, whatever, just go

Alex Ferrari 15:54
Okay, so let's, let's stop there for a second. I want to because my daughter's not see this one day, and I'm gonna say no, this is not the way to do it. I looked at the video, it seemed legit. I flew to Africa. This is not a statement that I ever want to hear my daughter say.

Alex Blue 16:11
Yeah, my mom had some doubts.

Alex Ferrari 16:14
I would hope so.

Alex Blue 16:17
But No, I didn't. I didn't know that. That Um, so the tribe is what they they kind of tell us refers to as the the people that watch their videos, and I'm telling you people are so inspired and like touched by these videos. I had no idea. It's like a it's like, it's almost like a cult classic in a way with Delos. The Delos episodes like people are so into them. And they've people have altered their lives so much like so many people have sold everything they own went and bought sailboats move their families aboard, like I'm talking hundreds, if not 1000s of people from these episodes. So they really touched people in a lot of ways. And yeah, and I just had no idea any of that before I got on the boat. Some people like to think that I saw Brady online buddy was cute, and like, came came in to swoop a map, but I did not have that much foresight

Brady Trautman 17:09
I was a lot skinnier and Tanner.

Alex Ferrari 17:14
No, it's it's it's really interesting, because as a creator, you know, with with what I do on a daily basis with podcasting, I've done hundreds and hundreds of podcasts. And you as a creator, you don't know what effect it has on people. You really don't you just put it out into the universe. And only when I'm at an event or at a film festival or a if I get emails or something like that. Do I realize the impact that Yeah, an episode? Did you found me listening to podcasts? You're like, Oh, yeah, yeah. And I have people who follow me like, Oh, my God, you know, you saved you saved me from losing $500,000 because that predatory distributor was gonna screw me, or those kinds of things all the time. So but as a creator, you just don't know, man. So I can imagine I understand that feeling of just putting it out there. And it really does affect people lives. For me. It's just like an interview. Like, I'm having an interview with you right now. And then I promise you somebody will just like, Oh, wait, what's that? What? Let me click on that YouTube channel, boom, all of a sudden, and they sell their boats. They sell their lives, they get a boat, and they go with a strange man. With a strange man with a strange man. Oh, no, she's a strange men. Exactly. But you don't know. But I promise you probably something like that will probably happen at one point or another, someone listening to this will happen. So it's, it's really, I always tell people, it's so important to put whatever's in your heart to put it out there. Because you just have no idea what effect it will have on another human being. It could be nothing to you. And you could say something like I say stuff on the show all the time. That to me, it's just not that's something I just it's just part of my vernacular, but it will blow someone's mind who's never heard it. And I'm assuming this, like, if I started watching your videos, if I wanted to get into boating, you'll probably save me years, FPA years of pain and suffering on how to run a boat or take one of your courses or, or you know, or something like that. It's it's pretty remarkable. It really is. Now you started once you speak regard, you started doing the YouTube channel, you started seeing there was a real thing. How did you build the audience? Or was it just strictly like I'm just going to create content? or How did you start interacting with them? How did you build that tribe? Because I called my guys the tribe as well.

Brady Trautman 19:28
I don't know our when we first started getting followers besides our parents. There was something inside of us like I knew something was I just knew it was gonna be big. Like I knew we were the first sailing YouTube channel in the world. And now there's, I don't know 10,000 or something, or I don't know how many there are, but I just knew that it was gonna go big, like, it was gonna be something big and we made kind of a rule just to only make videos that made us smile. So to be authentic to be ourselves. 100% never make A video based on a comment or, or what other people think. And and only only do it if it makes us happy. So if it ever came to a point where it was just too much and too stressful, which those times definitely came, then we had to take a step back and reassess. And that combined with the consistency is I think what grew the channel like we were releasing one episode 20 to 30 minute episode every Friday, still to this day, it's a brother scene. It's it's, it's ridiculous. And now I've been off the boat for full time for a little over a year now. And my brother and his wife and they have a baby on board now. And they're still doing it. And we have we have outside editors and stuff helping out but it's just like seeing it from the outside. Now I'm like,

Alex Ferrari 20:43
How the fuck did we do that for 10 years? Like I don't it was just 30 minutes of fresh content shot and edited every week is obscene.

Brady Trautman 20:53
The content was probably five months behind real time. Sure. So is backlog but yeah, it was every Friday 20 to 30 minute episode,

Alex Blue 21:03
sometimes maybe even longer labs every five minute episodes, double releases to try and catch up. Yeah, ridiculous.

Alex Ferrari 21:10
It's insanity. That's insanity. That's absolute insanity. Now out of sight out so you've mentioned a couple of revenue streams, you've created the YouTube advertising, which generally from my own experience on being on YouTube and just from other other youtubers I know. You got to have obscene amount of numbers to make, like people think like you're making a million a month I'm like, Dude, are you out of your mind? Like maybe in the beginning that was like it was a lot easier to make money when it started. But now you know, you got to really work to make and it's an it's not make make a living off of YouTube. Unless you've got millions of them. You got to have a lot a lot of us. So but you able to build that revenue stream? And then Patreon How did Patreon do for you guys? Is that really supported you?

Brady Trautman 21:54
Yeah, that's been the main revenue stream. By far. I mean, the ad revenue in the beginning in 2014 15. It was good. I think around 2016 it just started to drop even though our numbers grew, our ad revenue didn't really go up very much, because it was just so flooded. But Patreon yeah has continued to grow since we started it. I think we started it in 2013 is when we first started our Patreon account. And yeah, people find us on YouTube. And they watch a couple episodes. And of course, we push it in our YouTube videos like these videos are free. If you really want to support us head over to Patreon. And we give them rewards of course, t shirts, and sometimes we pick somebody's name out of a hat and they get to come sailing with us. So the rewards is it's a really cool platform. And without Patreon, I don't think we'd be where we are, we would have found a different route to continue. But I don't know if it would have been as big or successful as it is at all. We also have another revenue stream, which is really fun. Is our it's not a donation button because donation seems so like

Alex Ferrari 22:51
oh the give me buy me a beer.

Brady Trautman 22:53
Yeah, Bobby and beer. Exactly. And we came up we were sitting down having beers when this is before Patreon existed and we're like, yeah, people should like they people want to give us money. They're asking how to donate but you're like, come on, who's gonna donate to two younger dudes on a sailboat living living a great life in the South Pacific. Like, I wouldn't donate to those guys. But we we kind of formed it more in the way of if you're at a bar, and somebody tells you to good question or tells you so it tells you a good story and makes you laugh. Then you buy him a beer, right? It's like, Oh, that was a great story. Let me buy you a beer. So that's kind of how we did the whole thing. And that was a huge success. And it still is Yeah, cuz

Alex Ferrari 23:30
you guys start building out your website and yeah, I mean, all that all those kinds of things. And then obviously have some merge that you submerge and Oh, the one other other the US now do tours. You also do is you don't you have a course or like some sort of training Do you do as well,

Brady Trautman 23:48
I have a separate now like, since since we left the boat, Alex and I have started our own. I'm still part of Delos. But we're not involved in the filming or the editing of it. So we've kind of done our own thing. And instead of relying solely on YouTube to create an income, and to constantly pump out videos as much as we can. We've taken our experience of sailing around the world and all the stuff we've learned and we've made sailing school. So we're teaching, it's not through Delos, it's not through the YouTube channel. It's just something we're doing. So that way we can go back to filmmaking as a passion instead of a constant like, how are we going to make money off this next film?

Alex Ferrari 24:24
Now is that is that is that online? Is that an online course? Or is that an in person course? in person? It's an in person course. Alright, so do they fly in? And yet? Oh, wow. So I must be Yeah, solid. And then you could just film when you want to film and it's good. It's It's remarkable how you guys have been able to just figure it out in a way that like I'm just gonna keep doing what I want to do. And I'm never going to work with a man and, and just and just live the life you want to live and it's really inspiring truly, truly honestly as filmmakers and it's just a human being To be able to just I don't think you could ever get a chocolate could you get a chop? Like could sound like

Brady Trautman 25:05
why we there's no way I could get a normal job. I just don't I wouldn't know how to do it. I'd fail. I get fired probably right away.

Alex Ferrari 25:13
I always I always tell people, I'm unemployable. I think I'm psychologically unemployable. I cannot I there's no way I can have a boss. No, I get. I just got rid of my clients like three years ago. When I when I close my post, I was done. I was like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this all full time now. And it's, it's been great. Now, you also did a documentary series called 80 degrees north. Where, because you know, this opposite, it's not enough. And of course, the Atlantic is not enough in the Indian Ocean. And you're like, well, where Haven't we gone on this planet? On the Arctic? Oh, there's that's so. So let's go up to the Arctic and do this adventure. And you did this movie called 80 degree movie, but a series called 80 degrees north. Can you tell everybody a little bit about that? That project? Good.

Alex Blue 26:02
Yep. So we have a couple of friends who are also sailors, they have more of a it's not a charter. It's kind of like a blue water ocean experience school where you can go make long ocean passages with them. And they were going to be up in small Bard for anyone who doesn't know who that is, which is good chance probably.

Alex Ferrari 26:25
Yes.

Alex Blue 26:26
Yeah, it's, it's north of Norway. It's about 600 miles from the North Pole. It's a group of islands. And yeah, they're, they're very, in the in the summertime, it's 24 hours of daylight, and polar bears and all kinds of wildlife up there. And they recently have become more of a tourist attraction because a lot of the ice the pack ice the normally kind of packs them in, even in the summertime has been melting. So they had this idea they wanted to go up there, it was kind of between trips, and they invited the Dallas crew to come out and meet them, which definitely isn't something normally that the Dulles crew does, like we're always on Delos sailing around from place to place filming kind of doing our own thing. But it was an opportunity at that point where I think that everyone is pretty ready to try something new. And Delos has spent most of her life, you know, at the equator. And so everyone was like let's go see what you know, Coldwater sailing is all about. try this out. So yeah, we all flew there and hopped on their boat. They have a 40 foot swan. So it was them too. They had a ship photographer and then five of the Dallas crew came. So there's eight people on a 40 foot boat for three weeks. And we sell like 15 cameras. Oh my god, so much camera gear flying everywhere. So yeah, hopped on board with them sailed around and pretty much just filmed our experience everything from sort of what it took to prep the boat to the encounters that we had with glaciers to seeing polar bears, beluga whales, walrus, the sailing conditions, everything. And yeah, maida ended up making a four part documentary series with it.

Alex Ferrari 28:08
So I got I just want to go back to that for that scent that you said, hey, let's fly up to the Arctic and see what that's about. Again, that's something that is normally set by a normal human being. I just want to let everybody know that right there. Cuz you say it's so weird. Like, it just rolls off the tongue. I just want to stop for a second just so you're aware. That's just not the way we're normally used to living living in our underwear and bikinis in Brazil. Right? Oh, let's

Brady Trautman 28:32
try and fancy Yeah, let's do that. What a great idea. It was a great idea. It turned out to be a great idea. But looking back, it was like, we had no idea what we're getting ourselves into. It was just a completely opposite thing than what we knew and what we're used to. And I think that's why it excited us because at that point, when you're constantly filming your life every day and and editing the same footage, you kind of you don't get burned out, so to speak, but it's not as you're not as passionate about showing it anymore. You're like, Okay, get it doing the same thing we've done 200 times getting in the dinghy go into an island. So the idea of going to the Arctic someplace we've never been with totally different conditions, reignited our passion for filming and exploration. And we knew we wanted to do something different with it than the YouTube channel. Like we didn't want to have it just a normal Friday release and one of the time grows is filmmakers and just learn more and try different things. So we spent a ton of time it took us about two years to finish editing it and we did tons of interviews and yeah, so full on little mini series.

Alex Ferrari 29:33
That's That's awesome, dude. And I was gonna say, I don't know how you guys edit yourselves for over a decade because if it wasn't for me talking to other people, I can do this. Like I could not edit my source My life is boring as hell, but nothing nearly as cool as you guys do. But like just seeing myself all the time and doing the same thing after like, it might be cool for a little bit but after a while, like you said like okay, we get The thing again, we're gonna go to the, you know, I know everyone everyone watching is like, Oh my god, but for us, it's like, you know, like, Okay,

Brady Trautman 30:08
before she joined Bella, she was behind the camera like, 100% of the time. And she got on the boat until Africa. And there's a camera in her face. And she's like, Oh, so that was the last thing for you to get used to. Right?

Alex Blue 30:19
Yeah, I think it's actually there's a lot of value in you know, people always say if they have to listen to voicemail that they leave or, you know, watch a video clip of themselves. And they, they're like, I hate my voice, or I hate the way I look. And for me, it was really, really interesting. Because Yeah, I'd always been behind the camera and but there's a lot of value, even though it's straight up sucks. And it's really hard to like, watch yourself on camera, you realize a lot of I realized two things, I realized things about myself that I never realized before, from not new perspective that I wanted to change. And then I realized things that maybe you know, weren't perfect about me. But that's who made me who I was. And I was never going to change those things. So it actually really helped me grow as a person and see myself from, you know, someone else's point of view. And I think I became a better person for it from it. But it's, it's brutal.

Alex Ferrari 31:10
Most human beings go the other way. They go like, Oh, my God, this sucks. I'm just a horrible, I can't do this. And it just you don't find the positives or even the constructive. You just look at the negative. I took me years before I can listen to myself, like I know. Now I've got a little more accustomed to listen to my voice. But all was proved. It took me forever to get on. It took me forever to skim. If you if you go to my YouTube channel, the first videos, it's all just audio, I just threw up the audio. I just took me like two, three years before I started putting myself on video. I just I'm like, Oh, I want to be buying the camera. I don't want to do it. So it is brutal. It's brutal. So I tip I tip my hat to you guys, for doing it for as long as you have. Now the really interesting thing about 80 degrees north is that you have a very unique distribution model. And how is that working for you? And what is it?

Brady Trautman 31:57
Yeah, it's actually turned out we took a big risk, and it worked out very well for us. Luckily, when we first Yeah, when we first started editing this thing together. And we had three parts and four parts and we knew it wasn't going to go on YouTube. I started reaching out to you know, distribute distribution networks. I started listening to your podcasts like what other avenues other What do people do? I started talking to aggregators, I talked to people at all the major streaming networks that I won't name but all you know all the big ones that are out there. It's a short list. Yeah, yeah. And the most common thing that I heard back from them was where where's the arguing? Like, where's the drama where I'm like, we're fucking sailing in the Arctic, we have to carry a rifle. Because polar bears can attack us for protection. Like, is that not enough for you? Like it's not enough drama, you really need to the Alice to throw like they just wanted like, they're like, when did the crew argue? You know, if you argue with your brother, there had to be eight people on a 48 foot. You had to have argued? Like no, like, we didn't actually it was perfect. We didn't have any arguments. We didn't have any disagreements. So

Alex Ferrari 32:59
they were they were looking for the housewives of the Arctic is basically Yeah, no. Don't make a spoof of that now. Oh, my God, oh, Housewives of the Arctic

Brady Trautman 33:10
glaciers, beluga whales. Let's just you guys argue in a small space. It was a I don't know, it was a wake up call and a turn off really because as a as an independent filmmaker or something you feel like getting on one of those streaming platforms is like this is that's where you want to go. That's you get in front of so many people. And it's almost like a notch on your belt. But then I realized that we have such a cool, dedicated audience already, like our YouTube following our Instagram accounts, everybody is so engaged and so interested in what we're doing, we realize that no matter where we release it, people will want to watch. So instead of Yeah, instead of going with the streaming platforms or, or even charging, like on amazon prime, where you charge a certain amount for the for the episodes, we decided to give the people the choice and how much they wanted to pay. So we did a pay what's fair model, who built their own website, put up a trailer of it at North series.com is where it's all at, which is a podcast and people started hearing about it and then there's a little box where you can go and you type in whatever amount you want. And then you get to watch you get to stream all four parts of the series for as long as you

Alex Ferrari 34:22
have to ask you I mean, I don't want like accounting but like what's the average? Let's see. I was $15.35 Wow for two visitors and almost a little bit over two hours that the full series if I'm not mistaken.

Brady Trautman 34:35
Yeah, yep. So it's about 30 minutes so it's Yeah, a little over two hours. So I thought more people would watch. I mean, I'll tell you the amount of people that have watched it is right around 14,000 people right now are sorry that I paid 14,000 people

Alex Ferrari 34:50
so you can do this amazing.

Brady Trautman 34:52
It's great. We were able to cover our production costs like the flights of the crew, all the camera gear you know, all the all the stuff that goes into that. But it didn't reach as many people as I thought it would. Because we get, you know, in our in our YouTube channel, we get close to two to 300,000 views in a week span, like from the first Friday release. So it's a small percentage of people that are watching, but they're actually paying more than I thought, maybe I thought it would be 100,000 people or they pay $4.

Alex Ferrari 35:20
But I'll tell you getting 14,000 people off of a 200,000 like audience is a massive amount of conversion. That's it. Yeah. Really massive. And at that price point that you're talking about, is massive, because I've seen guys who have guys and gals who've got a million. And like, if they can get, if they get 10,000 off of a million, it's you're you're winning, it's again. So that's a that's a really big conversion. That says a lot about the passion of your audience. Now, you know, when I saw the pay to play model, I was like, Okay, this sounds great. But without an audience, this is really a tough sell. This is a hot, you know, if you if you got nobody, and it's only your mom and your uncle and maybe your best, and all the actors, or all the crew, people's parents and friends, yeah. This is this the pay, it's not going to really work. So it's so important. I've been yelling at this from the top of the mountain for so long, building that audience, connecting with that audience, and then feeding that audience, giving that audience what they want, providing a service to them, through your videos, through your services, through your products, through everything that you create. And you didn't go off and make you know, a movie about the carnival. or running off with a circus. You didn't make that movie because that movie wouldn't sell to your audience, maybe maybe a handful who just want to like, Did Davos, just join the circus. Which, by the way, would probably be an interesting documentary. It's a documentary but but you focused on the niche and you stayed within that niche, which is a niche you love. And you've maintained your life livelihood for the last decade by doing what you love. And isn't that every filmmakers dream?

Brady Trautman 37:06
I think so I never thought I would be a filmmaker or make documentary films. And then it just kind of came to fruition by necessity, I guess then yeah, it's 100% energy, my talk to a lot of other YouTubers, a lot of people that have YouTube chat sailing YouTube channels. And it's always the same question like, how do you create revenue from your YouTube channel or for making films, and it's so hard, it's really hard. And that's why we're really grateful to have such a good audience. And that audience was born out of going back to what I said before, being authentic, and just being ourselves. And you can see, you know what, the minute somebody is fake or does something to think that audience will like or something for money, the audience can see it right away, like the viewers will notice right away. And they'll be like, Okay, this person's not not real. They're only doing it for these reasons. So being authentic, really helped us all the way through, even for this documentary series, because people really stood behind us. And they're like, yeah, screw those guys trying to make you argue, do your own thing, and we're happy to support it.

Alex Ferrari 38:06
Now, did you just do you guys do sponsors as well? Or no?

Brady Trautman 38:10
No, no, we do. We do like gear sponsors and stuff. We don't do any big paid sponsorships? We've kind of stayed away from all that. If somebody wants to send us something like a dinghy or or sales, and we use it organically in the YouTube series, then awesome. It'll show up, like, organically, we don't have to blatantly put it out there. So we've never actually done really big paid partnerships. And for the at North series, we didn't do anything. No,

Alex Ferrari 38:35
no. Is there? Is there any reason? Would there have been a partner in the at North series that might have been a good like a maybe a couple brands or something like that, that would have aligned with your message of what you're trying to do? And help that also help pay for it? Yeah, I mean, the whole the whole series is pretty much alley hands and commercial. Yeah.

Alex Blue 38:54
We had a, we had a pro deal with Helly. Hansen. And yeah, we got like, 50% off. Yeah. And none of us had any snow gear or anything. We all a bikini, so we had to get literally fully fitted out all of our gear, all of our valleys and Helly Hansen. So like Brady said, the whole thing is a Helly. Hansen, essentially, but I mean, yeah, maybe if we tried to work it before, but at the end, it's like, well, it's already there. So yeah. Look what we did, it's already released.

Alex Ferrari 39:22
Do you want to give us money? Give us some money now for it. Now, what do you guys what do you guys planning in the future? I mean, obviously, obviously, this season, you're going to be at Lake Tahoe and sailing. I'm assuming you're doing courses or training. Now. You're gonna be doing that this summer. So what's up next for you guys now?

Alex Blue 39:40
Yeah, so Well, actually, me and Brady had the the idea of starting our new business, the cruisers Academy, which is the sailing school, when we were still on Delos. We really like teaching people. And yeah, like Brady said, just take a little bit of pressure off the filmmaking so that we can kind of you know, Enjoy it again. Not put so much not not put so much pressure on it. So yeah, so doing the sailing school and our original idea with it was to teach people how to live on boats how to cross oceans, Offshore Sailing, yeah, how to provision for six months at a time. And that still is our goal. But you know, given the last year and the travel restrictions and everything, we just decided to keep it local on taho. So we're kind of getting the Tahoe chapter set up. But we also are in the works of buying a blue water boat that can sail around the world. So we're going to be hopefully buying that boat this summer, and expanding the cruisers Academy to the ocean side as well. And then yes, still making films. We actually just got back from a dive trip in the Galapagos Islands for weeks. He told me

Brady Trautman 40:49
how was that? Like? It's like everything you see on Discovery Channel. There really is it's not? We're Galapagos

Alex Ferrari 40:57
is we're off of South America. Ecuador, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's off of Ecuador. Yeah,

Alex Blue 41:01
it's actually right at the equator. So yeah, we're diving with schooling, hammerheads out there and sea lions all around the streets, like, you know, dogs and everything like that. So we shot about four terabytes between the two of us two weeks. And that's going to be Yeah, the next film project that we put together, again, not putting a huge amount of pressure on when we're going to get it done. But hopefully by the end of summer, we'll have either some kind of long format product from it, or a few different episodes on our new cruisers Academy YouTube channel, but pretty much just still doing sailing and filming, but switching it up the amounts that we're doing of it, I guess.

Brady Trautman 41:38
Yeah, it was the first time this Galapagos trip was the first time we really picked up our cameras. And we're so intense with filming in about a year. When we when we left Delos and came to Tahoe, we kind of put our cameras down and we're like, okay, let's take a break from filming everything all the time. And then this Galapagos trip, we were right back in it with all of our cameras. So it felt really good. And it was like rejuvenating to film again, and be creative behind the camera. So I'm excited to see what comes in the footage. We haven't looked at any of it yet. But I think it'll be pretty cool. If it's not if we don't get cool footage from that trip, then we should not have ever again. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:13
All you gotta do is basically just turn it on and expose it. You should be take the lens cap off, and you should pretty much good.

Brady Trautman 42:20
So yeah. And then apart from the sailing school, we did because we've kind of branched off of Delos, because like I said, my brother and his wife and baby are still on board doing that. So we started our own YouTube channel called Crusaders Academy, same name as the sailing school. And that's what we'll be posting our short little stuff like, like, we're not going to do stuff once a week, like we talked about before. But whenever it's just a place for us to release our creative energy and to film and to edit stuff, but not in any way. Trying to turn it into a big business.

Alex Ferrari 42:50
Right, just just enough to kind of keep the ball rolling, just to keep the ball Yeah, and that's the thing a lot of a lot of filmmakers always think you know, that you have to be, you know, living in the Hollywood Hills making millions and millions of dollars as a filmmaker or as a YouTuber. And at the end of the day, like, is your is your is your roof paid for? Is your free pay for? Like, you know, can you buy a couple nice things if you need to go to the Can you go on a trip? You're living the dream, man. Like if you're making you know, even more importantly, do

Brady Trautman 43:21
you enjoy what you're doing? That's a huge value cleaning a lot of people forget about is maybe you can get a job paying double what you'd make for yourself, but that value of enjoying eight hours a day, 10 hours a day doing what you're doing is worth way more than double your salary.

Alex Ferrari 43:37
Oh, that's huge.

Alex Blue 43:39
And so are you proud of what you're making? You know, like, it's so fun to be able to go to the Galapagos and film exactly what we want edit it together exactly how we want like, we're the final. Like when I worked for production houses when I was first getting going in video, I just remember making an edit on something and someone coming in and telling me to change it to some horrible way. I was like, I cannot do this. This is literally ripping my soul out of my body. And that was when I decided like I'm making my own things and I'll make way less money but I'll be so much happier and yeah, it's a good path. Oh, trust me.

Alex Ferrari 44:17
I was in post for 25 years all I know I did everything so I Oh dude, dude, I direct and then I would do post that my post was like my day job. So like I always had post to pay the bills and then I would go off and direct stuff. But man all from color grading, editing post supervising VFX ah

Brady Trautman 44:39
brutal, brutal, brutal. A lot of a lot of your listeners are in those fields. Now.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
They're like, they're like, damn it. Damn it. Hey, but some people love that. Like I've interviewed I've interviewed Academy Award winning editors who are just like love that collaborative process. I'm too much of an entrepreneur. I'm too much of my own boss. I like collaborating, but I can't, I can't man. And as you get older, and I think you guys can feel this, as you get older the tolerance just actually go down of what you're gonna put up the shit that you'll put up with, it just starts, because you'll put up with a lot of 22. But a 32, things start getting different at 42, things get really different. And that's why you see the 82 year old guy walking out with his with his underwear half off his shirt to pick up the paper in his eye, he doesn't care. He's done, done. Now, I'm gonna ask a few questions asked all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker tried to break into the business today?

Alex Blue 45:41
I think it's interesting, because the business has changed so much from what it traditionally used to be. And there's so many different things that you can do within filmmaking, whether you're interested in writing or directing, or editing or, you know, filming or vlogging, you know, is a huge new one. So I think it really depends. But, as we've said multiple times over the last hour, I think staying true to yourself, even if there's less of an immediate reward is the way to go. And you know, in the long run, you're you're really shaping your your career path. As you go every job you take every client, you take every decision you make every project you work on, that's going to lead you to your next step. And if you can make good choices and kind of make sacrifices along the way to stay true to yourself, I think that's going to get you to where you want to go.

Brady Trautman 46:32
Yeah, for sure. I think besides like what I said about being authentic, it depends. If you're behind the camera, and you're on a set, you know, you're not filming yourself, you're not creating a vlog but for for a filmmaker that has total control over everything, to be authentic, and do what makes you happy. Like I've said many times during this, but also, I think a lot of people nowadays, especially in the YouTube world get caught up on the most expensive gear and the craziest transitions and, and stuff like that. And you're just like, just tell the story. At the end of the day, like that's what it's all about is is editing something that makes somebody else feel something on the other side of the screen and focus on that, like I've followed some people that film their YouTube channel with like iPhones the whole time. And it's incredible because they are who they are. And it's it's not very cinematic, but it's real. And they're great storytellers. So focus on that first and not the big effects and the big cameras in the transition the slides.

Alex Ferrari 47:31
I like the star wife personally, that's just made up stocks. Fantastic. Let's do one finds all the blinds the blah you could do it this way if you're if you're fancy you could do it angled wise this way. Yeah. Oh, hey, let's not get crazy man. That's like that's actually that cost a little extra? Yes to start wipe. Fantastic. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life? lesson to learn? That's a tough question. You're both looking over to your right. So I guess the answer is over there. That's just a window. That's a beautiful window. It's because I was wondering are the answers there?

Brady Trautman 48:14
The first thing that popped into my head with taxes. I wish I learned all that shit earlier. Like, I still don't get it. I still .

Alex Ferrari 48:25
Dude. We were just talking about that. You know, California. Hey, man, taxes. It's like the second and that's the second highest second or third highest place to live after New York and New Jersey. As far as taxes are. It's insane. It's insane. It's insane. But you know what remaining? Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much, sir. Hey, man, hey, I'm with you. But I'm still I'm still on this boat. I'm still in this boat. Sir. I am still in this boat for the time being. But you know what, that is probably one of the best answers I've heard on the show. taxes, learn taxes, learn accounting, what everything does and how to do stuff. How to deduct, how to legally deduct, like, I'd love to. I'd love to see your itemized list like, Oh, yeah, everything. Everything is deductible, everything, food, the whole thing. It's all part of the show about you, Alex.

Alex Blue 49:16
Let's see. I think something that I've learned is that when you find good people, like treat them right and do what you need to do to hold on to them. I think that one of the hardest things about being an entrepreneur probably no matter what business you're in, even if it's not filmmaking is that it's hard to find another one of you, you know, and if you can find someone like that, they are worth their weight in gold and like, you know, make sacrifices to keep them on board and keep them happy and value them because, you know, together you can do way way more than you can separately. So that's that's a big thing that I've learned and something that I am definitely going to carry through As we start this, this new venture,

Alex Ferrari 50:02
and three of your favorite films of all time.

Alex Blue 50:06
Oh,

Brady Trautman 50:08
that's a really good question two out the window. What do we got?

Alex Blue 50:14
I really went by the ones that I've watched the most. I'm going to go old school and save 10 Things I Hate About You like Heath Ledger five years and put it on and still no, like every word that movies I had. I remember how to like I recorded it off TV on like a VHS tape when I was little and I used to watch it all.

Alex Ferrari 50:32
I don't know what I don't know what VHS is our way to that.

Brady Trautman 50:41
The first one that comes to my mind is The Goonies it's always holds a special. My heart sounds probably a classic that many people say The Goonies Yeah,

Alex Blue 50:49
there's actually Yeah, one of my favorite films, also, like independently made it's called chasing bubbles. And it's about an absolute legend named Alex rest. I think you can watch it for free on YouTube. Go watch it and just be prepared, you're going to want to like sell everything and buy a boat after it. But it's so worth a watch. It's really really good.

Brady Trautman 51:11
Yeah, Chasing bubbles. That's a good one. Um,

Alex Ferrari 51:16
one more.

Brady Trautman 51:17
That's really tough.

Alex Blue 51:18
I have one more I have one more. It's actually a film about the wild mustangs in the US, but it's called on branded. I read horses and I have a Mustang. But even if you don't, the film is really, really well made. And it tells the whole story of Mustangs and it's about these cowboys that actually go get wild horses and put a little bit of training on him and ride them from all the way up the PCT from Mexico to Canada. so crazy story. really well done. Go watch it.

Alex Ferrari 51:47
Wow. I see that you is which one? Yes series. Of course.

Brady Trautman 51:54
Probably not original, and everybody probably loves it. But I've watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia like 10 times over. Like I put it on I'm going to bed in the morning. I don't know he's got to just geniuses.

Alex Ferrari 52:05
The the two shows that I do that too. And that's also not originalist. Seinfeld and friends. Like I'll just I was I was just watching Seinfeld the other day. And I'm like, so good. It's just so good. I can't I can't believe they got away with this stuff they got away with. And then I and then my daughters now are obsessed with friends. They're, they're like young, like super young. And they just sometimes you're like, no, that's not appropriate. It's not appropriate, and appropriate. But now like it was so funny, Jennifer Aniston we watched Marley and me the other day, and they go, is that is that Rachel from friends? I'm like, my wife and I both looked at each other. Like, we've done something right or wrong. I'm not sure what it is. We don't know. Yeah, we don't know. Something. And where can people find out more about what you guys are doing and follow you guys.

Brady Trautman 52:55
The best thing is cruisers Academy. So you can find that on Instagram cruisers Academy or YouTube search cruisers Academy, or cruisers academy.com for a sailing school. So if anybody's interested in coming up to Tahoe and sailing, we're pretty booked up. But we'll find some space to do some charters and whatever, just stay in touch. So cruisers Academy on all platforms, is the best to stay in touch.

Alex Blue 53:16
And also Brady mentioned it before, but 80 North series.com if you did want to watch the docu series that we made about our adventures in the Arctic.

Alex Ferrari 53:27
Yeah, very cool. And we're looking forward to the Galapagos series coming soon. Well, maybe not that soon. Because you guys will take by two years to come into

Brady Trautman 53:35
It will come when it's supposed to come.

Alex Ferrari 53:39
As, as a true filmmaker, as a true record filmmaker would say, guys, thank you so much for being on the show you are an inspiration on how to live life to its fullest and follow the dream follow the bliss and you guys are definitely examples of that. So thank you so much for being on the show, guys.

Brady Trautman 53:54
Thank you so much for having us. It was really nice.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 312: How to Always Make Money with Independent Film Godfather Roger Corman

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason Buff.

Jason Buff 0:04
Thanks for joining us here today. We have a super guest on Today we're talking with one of my heroes, Mr. Roger Corman. Now just between us I was scared as hell to just give Roger Corman a call. I was sitting in my office and I got his very nice secretary told me a time to call in and it's kind of like all of a sudden I was on the phone with one of my heroes Roger Corman really is someone who all indie filmmakers should know about and should definitely understand his contribution to the world of independent film. He's also responsible for giving the first break to a lot of people that my generation considers the filmmakers that really influenced them like Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola, Jonathan Demi, Joe, Dante and Ron Howard. So what I want to do is listen to some of them talk about how Roger Corman influenced their filmmaking. The first interview I want to go to is with Jonathan Demi, who said this about Roger Corman, in the documentary, Roger Corman, Hollywood's wild angel in 1978. Documentary

Jonathan Demi 3:07
Well, in any film that I've ever worked on with Roger, there are three main elements that he's looking for. One is humor, which he considers tremendously important. Another is action, which he considers very important, and another is sex, which he considers important, but not quite as important as the other two elements, I don't think but it's funny the way these things pop up because for example, in my script for caged he had your script and and what Roger does is sometimes he'll give the notes right on the script and hand it back to you. So you get the script back and you get little little marginal references like breast nudity possible here. Question mark. Which Yes, you realize, yes, it is possible here and you don't want to get too idealistic, because actually don't have negative feelings about nudity anyway. So yes, Roger, indeed it is. And that's the bargain you make with Roger, if you buy his it's never articulated, I don't think but if you buy his concept that pictures that audiences alike contain these three major elements, action, humor, and sex, and you really buy it, and you're kind of commit to getting as much of that stuff as possible in there. And if you also want to make a good picture and tell a good story, then the best of both worlds happens he gets a movie that contains these things and he's confident of releasing it and you get a chance to make a picture very much the way you want to make it

Conan O'Brien 4:15
I know that you've worked with you gave so many people their start so many great talents or start. Francis Ford Coppola worked with you before he really worked with anyone else. Isn't that true?

Roger Corman 4:26
Yes. Right. As a matter of fact, he he was a sound man, the second assistant director and shot second unit all on one picture.

Conan O'Brien 4:35
Really very versatile. Okay. And did you know that this kid's going places

Roger Corman 4:39
Actually, I knew he was good. I had no idea that he was gonna go to the heights he did. Okay.

Conan O'Brien 4:44
Ron Howard. I think also Ron Howard, his first directing jobs.

Roger Corman 4:49
He started with us as an actor, and the picture was called Eat my dust car to a film. It was a big success. And he came into the office and he said, I know you want to do A sequel with a star plays a role in a successful film. He always asked for more money, I will star in the next picture, no more money, and I will do an additional job. And I said, what is that? And he said, I'll direct and I said, Brian, you always look like a director to be.

Conan O'Brien 5:20
You influenced the way film trailers are made. I think many people, especially young people think that film trailers have always been similar. But no, you really changed the way they were made with a certain innovation. What is it? You did?

Roger Corman 5:33
Well, it was Joe Dante who went on to become a very well known successful director who started cutting trailers for us, and he was cutting one trailer, and I looked at and I said, Joe uses a fairly dull trailer. What can you do to jazz it up? He said, Come back this afternoon. I went back this afternoon, and there was in the same dole trailer in the middle was an exploding helicopter. It made the trailer

Conan O'Brien 6:00
Let me ask the question, was there an exploding helicopter in the film?

Roger Corman 6:03
There is no law that says everything in the trailer

Conan O'Brien 6:13
Fantastic. The balls man that was incredible. So I mean, what is in wouldn't this show would be jazzed up by a helicopter crash occasionally. You know, that's the kind of thing that would help a talk show we know they should do it everywhere.

Roger Corman 6:26
We could give you the stock footage.

Conan O'Brien 6:28
Would you charge me for it?

Roger Corman 6:29
Very little.

Conan O'Brien 6:33
You've got great titles, great titles for your films, one of my favorites attack of crab monsters and and there's the of course the title for it. And so many amazing titles over that do come up with a title first and then decide to shoot the film. How does it work sometimes?

Roger Corman 6:49
Appearances Grand Theft Auto, which was Ron Howard's first film as a as a director, the title came first, but if Oh, the film he did before, Eat my dust, I forgotten the title. We were shooting a car chase, somewhere out in the San Fernando Valley and dusk was flying all over the place. And the director who said we had a call is Victor, Eat my dust. I said we will. And he said I'm joking. I said, I'm not joking. That's a great title. So the title came.

Jason Buff 7:19
Now of course, that was Conan O'Brien. And now here's Ron Howard talking about working with Roger Corman

Ron Howard 7:24
conversations that were really significant during the course of making Grand Theft Auto. The first was, he sat me down and said, Ron, I'll come visit you on the first day of filming. And if you're productive, and you're making around 20 setups a day and you're making your days, you won't see much of me. in all candor. If you're not achieving those, those kinds of results, you're going to see one hell of a lot of me. That was his little warning. I had a great moment on the Paramount lot. I was finishing up the season of that season of Happy Days, walking along. And as soon as hiatus came in March, I was gonna go direct Grand Theft Auto. And Jonathan Dami called me from out the window at the second second storey office. He was getting ready to do citizen band I think. And and, of course, I knew him as a Roger Corman veteran. And he came bounding down the stairs. And he said, I heard you're going to direct a picture for Roger, come upstairs. And I went upstairs and he talked to me for about 20 minutes. He gave me these sheets that he would use to sort of plan out the shortlist and, and the day and gave me great advice. Here's this young guy saying make sure you get plenty of sleep, you know, the hipster guy, and I and I and, you know, and and, and he basically said, you know, Roger will let you creatively do whatever you want to do. That's the fantastic thing about working for Roger. And, but, you know, you just have to make sure that you, you're efficient. And here's how you do it. And remember to think ahead and just lots of good fundamentals, but also encouraging me to explore and be creative. And really, you know, take advantage of this, this opportunity that Roger was was was given me, I finally carried my end of a great tradition. And cast Roger in Apollo 13. He had a very nice scene playing a senator with with Tom Hanks. And it was a really wonderful day to reconnect with Roger, having calm had, you know, it was a big day with green screen and, you know, it was we were doing visual effects shots and, and it was, you know, just a plus Hollywood filmmaking and he just marked and said, Well, we can do this for a hell of a lot less. And you know, he could

Jason Buff 9:54
All right and now my interview with Roger Corman.

Alex Ferrari 9:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jason Buff 10:07
I was watching the documentary Corman's world recently, the thing that I thought was very interesting to see was that you're still going down and being on the set. Do you find the same excitement being on a set these days?

Roger Corman 10:17
It's always exciting to be on the set, I'd probably not as excited as earlier. But the stimulation is still there after you've done it. I've made around 300 films, there's a certain routine. But there's something always a little bit No

Jason Buff 10:32
How have things changed? I mean, now that you are working in the digital world, and video on demand and the Sci Fi Channel, how has your system changed and the way that you go about distribution,

Roger Corman 10:44
It's changed a little bit when you mentioned distribution, it's changed for the better, and production, and it's chain changed, at least for those of us working in medium budget and lower budget films has changed for the worse, and distribution and production, production is easier. The new digital cameras, a sound equipment, the lighting equipment, everything is lighter, more portable, easier to use, so you can shoot more unnatural locations, and you can shoot faster and more efficiently. So production is better today, the conditions of production. The conditions of distribution, however, are not good for the independence. The major studios today with their $100,000,000.02 100 million dollar budgets in their 3040 $50 million marketing campaigns have dominated theatrical to such an extent that very few medium or low budget independent pictures get a theatrical distribution. Primarily, we're on DVD streaming cable, some broadcast television, and only occasionally in theaters today,

Jason Buff 11:59
Is there a certain period of time that you look back on in your career and kind of reminisce about as being the glory days of filmmaking?

Roger Corman 12:07
Probably for me, the 60s and 70s, the 60s was when I was having most fun, and most success as a director, I started directing and around 58 or something like that first couple of years, you sort of learn what you're doing. And then things started to move for me in the 60s. And in the 70s, I started my own production and distribution company that I moved from directing to producing and distributing and that was a whole new world as well. So for that, about a 20 year period, I was probably having the most fun and the most success. Things still work out. I'm still producing, still distributing, but I make fewer films today. And just that I make fewer films, they get a limited distribution. And I'll continue for a few more years.

Jason Buff 13:01
You started out working as a writing notes on screenplays, right? And you eventually did some notes for the gun, the compiler,

Roger Corman 13:09
Yes. Actually, I started up. I graduated from Stanford with a degree in engineering. And I was a failure of the Stanford Engineering class. I got the worst job of anybody. I got a job as a messenger at Fox $32.50 a week. I rode the bike around the studio delivering messages. And then I'm I worked the fairly hard did put did some extra work and became a reader in the story department. And that was where I first got a little bit minor recognition for my work on the gunfighter. I didn't like various things of going on. So I had some college time left on the GI Bill. So I went to Europe, went to Oxford briefly. And then came back and became a literary agent, and sold my own script under an assumed name and took the money from that and started my production company.

Jason Buff 14:12
How did you did you know how it was all going to work? And were you going to sell the film? Or did you just kind of go into it like the leap of faith?

Roger Corman 14:18
It was a total leap of faith. I I think that and I wonder how I had the nerve to do it.

Jason Buff 14:27
Well, I think that you know, your career has shown that you've taken a lot of leaps of faith like that. And now did you when you first started, did you have the idea that you could keep a career going as long as you were making films at a low enough price that you could always sell them?

Roger Corman 14:44
It wasn't quite that easy. I financed my films with my own money. And since I don't have that much money, I can't make giant films. So the budget level was more or less predetermined, and I don't Really think I've ever thought of it as how long can I keep going? I just felt that everything is going well, I'll continue making films. So there was a little bit of a sort of a long term plan. But to a large extent, it was day to day. I'm going to make this film I'm shooting this film. I'm planning the next film, and so forth.

Jason Buff 15:21
What did you learn from making films that people really wanted to see you obviously tapped into something in the marketplace that was selling tickets and got people coming in and got people excited? Are there any sort of things that are specific to your films that really kind of you developed and learned how to sell a film?

Roger Corman 15:39
Well, early on, I appeal to a teenage audience. I was very much aware that the audience was a young audience, and the major studios were casting their great stars, which meant to a large extent, a 50 year old leading man, making love to a 40 year old leading lady and the abrogation. The audience was 18. So I felt, I totally understood why they did it. Their stars were the equivalent of brands. The stars were famous and could sell tickets. But I felt if I work with young people, I could appeal directly to a young audience. And I worked in genres. i Not always, but generally, I was doing action pictures, horror films, science fiction films, sometimes deliberately straight, teenage films, and so forth.

Jason Buff 16:36
Were there any other movies like genre films, they were fairly non mainstream back in those days? I mean, nowadays, it seems like horror movies are very mainstream, and especially science fiction and everything, especially after Star Wars and all those sorts of movies. But back in those days, was it something that was more of like a drive in movie theater or more like be movies?

Roger Corman 16:56
Yes. The drive ins were very important, they weren't quite as important as people think they were. Our main money still came from what we call the hard to see in close theaters. But drive ins were a major source of income. And the driving audience was even younger than the hard top audience. Although drive ins did attract some families, on the basis that young family with children couldn't afford a babysitter, something could just go to the drive and put the children in the backseat, watch the picture. And the children would maybe just go to sleep. So it was an inexpensive night out for them. It still was primarily a young audience,

Jason Buff 17:42
Do you think we've missed something now that we don't have theatres, and we don't like go out and see movies now that everybody's watching movies, on iPads and on TV?

Roger Corman 17:49
Yes, I think there's something to be said, for seeing a picture, particularly a comedy. With an audience. You pick up the vibes, as it were, unconsciously, from the audience, it becomes a communal or a shared experience.

Jason Buff 18:04
I was watching the 1978 documentary called corpsman Hollywood's wild Angel, you can actually it's actually on YouTube. And it was one of probably one of the most, I've learned so much in two hours of just watching this incredible. And there's a great scene where they're talking with Jonathan Demi, and he's talking about the advice that you gave him as a filmmaker. And I thought it was really interesting. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. And he said that the three most important elements in a film were humor, action, and sex and sex was last but it was still important. Do you still feel like

Roger Corman 18:40
I think I think that I would put in a negative storyline. I should have said that. I was probably I was probably understood.

Jason Buff 18:50
What are your some of your favorite movies that you have seen lately? You know, more contemporary people?

Roger Corman 18:55
Yes, as a matter of fact, possibly the most interesting film I saw last year, was a film that for three quarters of the way through, I thought was one of the most brilliant films I'd ever seen. And then it started to fall at the end. And it was never recognized in any way, I think for special effects Interstellar, which I thought was really a brilliant film, particularly as I say my degree was an engineering but I had a minor in physics. And maybe it was unique to me. I tried to stay up with physics. And it was really very accurate. From all the concepts of Physics Today, the last quarter or so it started to get a little questionable. didn't totally hold up, but I think for the reason that as I say, it was so brilliant, so far through and then still was I still think of it as possibly the best picture of the year but So nobody else seems to agree with me or few people agree or agree with me.

Alex Ferrari 20:05
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jason Buff 20:14
One of the things that I had heard that you mentioned was that after the film, the intruder, you had decided that you didn't want to be as, which is a brilliant film, but I actually just saw it for the first time a couple of days ago that you had decided to try and not you know, have a movie that was commercial, but have a movie within that movie that actually had a message and was a good movie within a movie that was sellable.

Roger Corman 20:37
Yes, I felt that I had become too serious with the intruder. It got a lot of critical acclaim when a couple of minor film festivals, but it was commercially not successful. And I felt I was too serious. I was lecturing the audience. And I felt, what I would do would be to make a film and entertainment with as we say, a method acting a text and the subtext of text is the entertainment of the film. And the subtext would be whatever was important to me, or whatever I wanted to say. But it wouldn't be always be secondary, to the textures of film.

Jason Buff 21:19
Now, were you one of the first people to take the camera off the tripod and go out into the streets and kind of shoot off of sets Was that something that you felt was you know, would bring more realism to your film, say in the 60s?

Roger Corman 21:35
Yes, I was one of the first, I wouldn't say I was the first service that I know. A number of people were doing it before me. But I was one of the first to do it. And I liked that concept very much I'd been doing. My Edgar Allan Poe pictures was Vincent Price. And those were deliberately studio bound, I wanted to have total control of everything within a studio leaving nothing to chance. And I wanted to when I felt I had done enough of those films, I wanted to go completely away from that, go into the streets and shoot the world around me, as as I interpreted during the 60s, which of course was a very volatile decade.

Jason Buff 22:19
You mentioned working with Vincent Price and the poems Can you talk a little bit about horror and you're feeling about horror movies?

Roger Corman 22:27
Well, horror is very complex, it's exceedingly complex, you can get hard very easily by cutting off somebody's arm or something like that. I'm not talking about that kind of horror, I'm talking about horror, as a psychological concept. And I think the roots go so deep into a person's individually experience into the whole experience of humanity, that it is a fascinating genre in which to work that

Jason Buff 22:57
You were distributing a lot of films from foreign filmmakers. I was wondering if you had any favorite filmmakers from that, you know, like Kurosawa, or Bergman, what what your favorite films were from that kind of well of people,

Roger Corman 23:13
I would pick a few, some of the filmmakers, Fellini, Bergman, Kurosawa, a number of others. The first one I had was cries and whispers from Bergman, which was I thought, brilliant film. Can you see our carousel was there's a who's, which is an unusual film for him to which one Academy Award Best Foreign Film Fellini's picture. I forgotten the title of it. But the film from Fellini that also won the Academy we won. I think in a certain number of six or seven years, we've learned more at foreign Academy Awards and everybody else combined.

Jason Buff 24:00
Now, where were you able to meet with those directors? Did you you know, have any relationship with them? And did you learn things from them?

Roger Corman 24:07
Yes, I met I met several of them talk with so much several of them. Fellini said you should get out of distributing and go back to directing. I remember. Why did you ever leave.

Jason Buff 24:20
You've obviously had a great influence on a lot of the people that my generation considers the best filmmakers, you know, the the 70s and the people who really influenced us moving into the 80s. Now when I when I watch a movie by you know Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola, when you watch movies that they make, do you see your influence in what they make, I mean, for example, camera movement, and you know, keeping things going

Roger Corman 24:45
A little bit, but basically, they are their own people. They were good before they even met me they had the talent. I may have taught them a few things, but basically, they're brilliant film. makers, they would have been brilliant filmmakers if they'd never met.

Jason Buff 25:03
What do all these people have in common that the great filmmakers the James Cameron's, and all these guys that you work with? What is there something that you saw in them that just made them? Great?

Roger Corman 25:12
Well, I've been asked that question before, I would say there were three things. One, every one of them was intelligent. I've never met a successful writer, producer or director who's been successful over a long period of time, who wasn't intelligent. The second was the ability to work. Making films on move to a certain extent is glamorous and exciting. But also it is very, very hard work. Those two things, you can kind of figure out. The third is creativity. They are all creative, and that you only learn about a person by working with them.

Jason Buff 25:56
I also watch Death Race 2000. And I was wondering if you when you watch the Hunger Games, reaction to that,

Roger Corman 26:04
I definitely had that reaction both in its follow up picture, deaths, sport deaths, sports, a number of things went wrong, it's not a good picture. But the thoughts and death rays, on the other hand, was pretty good picture. One Sample was the greatest beat picture of all time, I think, without question, some of the thoughts and death races and deaths for it are in The Hunger Games and some other things. On the other hand, as far as I know, death, race and death sport were totally original. But if I say that, there's gonna be somebody who will say you're forgetting the German expression, this film of 1919 had the same concept. So you can never say you were really the first. And it's very possible if I think whoever wrote the Hunger Games had never seen death sport or Death Race. They probably thought they were doing something totally original as well.

Jason Buff 27:05
Well, it also reminded me a lot of Mad Max and actually more like Mad Max, too. You know, did you did you ever see that connection?

Roger Corman 27:13
Yes. Who was the actually the in that case? It's an Australian direct. He told me he had seen it. He had seen death rates. George Miller Yeah. Yes. Joy. Yes. And he said he had seen death rates. And he said he was inspired by him. And but he didn't cartoonish. And he got a general idea of a genre, and did two brilliant original films. The call?

Jason Buff 27:38
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, the thing that, that you feel when you watch that, it's just the danger. You know, you feel the speed and you feel like I mean, that's one of the things that films I think have lost a lot nowadays is just the actual, you know, you're doing everything in camera, there's not really any visual effects. I mean, there might be there was like a matte painting, I remember. But other than that, I mean, everything is real and not like digital effects. So you can when I watch movies like that, it's a lot realer than watching, you know, some of these movies that are like the superhero movies where you know that they can do it all in a computer?

Roger Corman 28:09
Yes. I think the audience unconsciously knows that they can sense it. To a certain extent, the steps that can be done today are far superior to what we were doing in camera, what you can do with a computer are just lightyears ahead. Yet at the same time, the audience almost senses. They're too good. They know this can't really be now,

Jason Buff 28:35
I wanted to talk for just a second about if you could give a little bit of a lot of people that listen to this are first time filmmakers and people that are trying out they're trying to make you know, their first independent films, can you talk a little bit about what people can do to have success in the film industry and make a film that's like you said, a movie that is good, but also a film that will sell and that can keep them going,

Roger Corman 28:57
Well as William Goldman once said, nobody knows anything. He's partially true. But I would say this. A lot of people have a general idea, you don't know. But you have a general idea. So I could say a few things. And even before I say, I will know that somebody will go up and do something totally opposite from what I say you should do, and have a giant success and do it. So it really depends upon the ability as a filmmaker, but probably not getting into a deep, long discussion. The one thing that I would say is most important is preparation. Particularly if you have a short schedule, or a small budget. You want to do as much of your thinking as you possibly can. Before you ever appear on the set. You want to have your story worked out. You want to have talked with your actors.

Alex Ferrari 29:58
We'll be right back after a word from Our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Roger Corman 30:07
Worked out the basic red line is Stanislavski said if the actor's performance, you want to have your own shots sketched out, knowing however, you will never follow your plan exactly something that will whose happens that causes you to change sometimes as the better sometimes you'll get a better idea. But I put heavy, heavy emphasis on pre production planning.

Jason Buff 30:34
Is that how you were able to do Little Shop of Horrors? In today?

Roger Corman 30:37
Yes, we rehearse three days. So what happened? Studio had these sets, that we just shot on sets that were there. That's the reason I made the fixture. And I knew that as a Screen Actors Guild at that time, I think it's still this way. Hiring an actor for five days for a week is not much more expensive than hiring a matter of fact, it's about as expensive it was to hire an actor for a week, as for three days on a daily rates, so I hired all the actors for a week, we rehearsed three days, and then went and shot for two days, having worked everything out in the first three.

Jason Buff 31:15
I actually I have to ask you this. Now, I know that you you're a fan of Stanley Kubrick, right? Yes. I was wondering how you How did you feel about the Shining when you saw that? And did you talk to Jack Nicholson about that after I did,

Roger Corman 31:27
I thought for sure, I think Kubrick is one of the great, great directors. And I think the shining is one of his best films. And that's his best film, but it's one of his best films. So I have total admiration for Stanley. And for that picture, and Jack was brilliant. I do have one story that Jack told me. When we were working people used to say I printed the first take I sold them did but I print generally the second or third take or something like that. Stanley is famous for shooting and shooting and shooting. He went over 100 takes on one shot with jack and jack is a good guy. He stood there the wet until Stanley printed 112 113 cakes. And when he was finished, he went over to Stanley. Stanley, I'm with you all the way. But you have to know I generally take around the 70 is the radius.

Jason Buff 32:29
Did you ever have the chance to meet Stanley Kubrick

Roger Corman 32:32
I met him was just talked to him briefly early in his career he had done his first film was a crime story built around a racetrack. And it was a medium low budget film. And I remember was after he had done that. And I was just talking to him. And I said this is one of the best if not the best first films I've ever seen. And it was clear from there that he was going to have a brilliant career. Was that the killers?

Jason Buff 33:02
Yes, that's right. That had a brilliant ending to with the the suitcase and the money flying out of it and everything. Yes. I always in my my interviews with two questions. One is, do you have a resource like a book or something that's been very influential to your life or something that you can recommend to filmmakers?

Roger Corman 33:21
Well, I'll give you an answer that doesn't apply exactly the most influential book to me was when I was in college, studying math, and I studied calculus. The whole concept of calculus, which is to a certain extent, could be described as the mathematics of movement. The problems with calculus that we're going to get, won't get in all of that calculus, the problem and the solving of the problem, I thought was so brilliant and such an example of what the creative mind can do that that's probably influenced me more than any other book.

Jason Buff 34:00
If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were 20 years old. What advice would you have for yourself,

Roger Corman 34:06
I would probably say at the age of 20, to try to get as broad and varied in education as you possibly can. I think the fact that I majored in engineering cause me to specialize too much in a certain branch of knowledge, where as a liberal education, encompassing literature, our philosophy, economic psychology, all of that is the best preparation for a full life, whether professionally or personally,

Jason Buff 34:43
Did you follow that because you felt like you had to have something to kind of fall back on and to have a career.

Roger Corman 34:49
Well, my father was an engineer, and I simply started off to follow his in his footsteps. And it wasn't until I became the film critic of the Stanford Daly and I started analyzing films that I realized this is what I wanted to do. But I'd spent four years studying engineering.

Jason Buff 35:12
Did you ever use any of that knowledge for filmmaking?

Roger Corman 35:14
Well, as I say, going back to Calculus, I use some of the knowledge. But I also use some of the way in which you think as an engineer, or a physicist or a mathematician, there's a thought process of problem solving, which can be very creative and very satisfying, and very useful at the same time.

Jason Buff 35:35
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and talking with me.

Roger Corman 35:40
Very good. Thank you.

Jason Buff 35:41
All right. That's gonna do it for today. I want to thank my guests, Mr. Roger Corman for coming on the show. Thanks a lot.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 311: How to Raise $325 Million in Film Financing with Wayne Godfrey

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome to the show Wayne Godfrey man How you doing Wayne?

Wayne Godfrey 0:14
It's really good to be here. Thank you so much for having me

Alex Ferrari 0:17
You know thank you so much for being on the show. Man. I'm excited to get into the weeds with you about your your very interesting career so far in the film industry and you're a young guy, you were of similar vintages. But you know, you've done a lot for a guy of your age and and what you've done in the business is pretty, pretty extraordinary. So. But before we get into all of that, how did you get into this ridiculous business?

Wayne Godfrey 0:46
Oh, wow. Well, you Sam young guy, but yeah, I kind of remember that. So no, it was, I was fortunate enough to start as a runner. So I began, really my whole career at a post company in the UK called Goldcrest, one of the post houses in the UK. And, you know, I started one day by knocking on the door, putting my CV in needing a job in, you know, in London and trying to really figure out what the whole concept of moviemaking was all about. And I actually was a bit of a DJ back then. So I was very interested in sound and the behind the scenes of finishing movies, and began being a post runner AT Gold crest in London. And from there learn about the business of making films. And I had fantastic teachers in john quested, Tony Murphy, Steven Johnson, who were these old school, you know, indie film, guys, who were no expert teachers of showing how to take a movie, take it to a market, I can package it up, and sell it to a bunch of buyers and actually monetize what a movie is. And this was a whole new world for me as a young kid, because when you go and buy them, you didn't think about how they got there in the first place. And this was a whole new kind of education. And so that's how it all began, really, as a runner, right from the bottom up.

Alex Ferrari 2:18
Now, so the the, the the concept of like packaging a film and making money with a film is so I mean, look, the film business is the only business in the world where you could spend $100 million on a product, and it's worthless. I mean, it's the only, like, you spent $100 million on a building kind of building.

Wayne Godfrey 2:38
You would think, and also a lot of a lot of, you know, CAD for and market research and keg and probably pre selling goes into identifying whether you should spend 100 million on that building in the first place. Right. As opposed to maybe doubling it in a little silo, with a few of your mates, thinking this is a great idea. But no, I think I think, you know, there's different ends of the film spectrum, the 100 million dollar. blockbusters are immense businesses in their own right. I'm fortunately I'm not in that arena. I've never been in that arena. It's an amazing arena. They make amazing movies, but I'm in the the other end of the arena, the issue of film, and but whether it's 100 million or a million, it's still significant amount of money that you are, I don't want to say gambling, but you are rolling the dice on really, you know, putting together these these businesses and establishing whether or not Can you find an audience? And that's a very interesting proposition. And you know, I think as a producer, you're ultimately creating businesses, every film is their own business.

Alex Ferrari 3:43
Right? Exactly. Because, you know, you could spend a million dollars on a movie, but it's like you need when you when you build, you build a cookie, you bake a cookie, for on the smallest spectrum, you but you make a package of cookies, you need to find customer base for that cookie. And generally, most human beings on the planet will enjoy that cookie. Because cookies are cookies, it's sugar, it's flour, it's milk, and all that kind of stuff. With a film. It's so more complex, and now in today's world is even more complex. Because as I'm sure you know, from the moment when you start it off today, there's a few more movies in the marketplace now. So it's been diluted with a lot of, for lack of a better word crap, from a lot of things that might might need to be there might not need to be there. But even if they're all amazing films, it's still a tremendous amount of content that you're fighting for attention. So how do you kind of break through with some of your projects?

Wayne Godfrey 4:38
Just to that point, I think the other thing to think about is you're not just competing against the new round of your scene with every movie that's ever been made ever.

Alex Ferrari 4:47
So jars, Star Wars.

Wayne Godfrey 4:50
It's all available the click of a button now for free or very affordably with the streaming subscription model. So suddenly We've this incredible shift in consumption that's occurred over the last few years with the plethora of movies that are available. The catalog, as well as the new content is incredibly competitive. But that's a great opportunity as well, because whereas the barrier to entry was, you know, quite high to make a movie, and actually get distribution and get your product out there. And in some respects now, the availability of resources and technology and reduction in cost of making movies has enabled really independent filmmakers to really be able to tell a story and find an audience and find a home, which wasn't so easy many, you know, 510 years ago. But again, the key question is, how do you identify what story is the right story to make? And how do you stand out in the crowd? I guess that's a that's a key question. And unfortunately, I don't have the exact answer, if I would be making a movie.

Alex Ferrari 6:05
But that's the thing, there's like no real, there's no real formula like, like a cookie. A cookie is a recipe, it's not hard. And it's been done a million times, it's now just about maybe some nuances in marketing and packaging, and things like that, maybe some new ingredients and things. And but movies, every movie is a new beast and new thing.

Wayne Godfrey 6:25
Look at it as Alex, like the three pillars of every movie, there are there, you need three pillars, well, you don't need three you need to story is the star, I don't really care how much you're spending on it, who's in it, if your story is golden, you have a chance, but it's a bit wobbly. So you need another pillar. And that will be maybe capital money investment budget. So if you had a load of money and a really good story, but no one you know, in it, you've got to you know, you got to show, you get that third pillar in, which is your talent, your recognizable names, your quality director, whether they're new or old, you know, you've got a solid foundation of building the bricks of that house, three pillars foundation have a great chance of making a successful movie. Now you move one of the pillars of two of the pivots, you had a load of money and no story in no time, you can make it it's a bit wobbly, but you might get it made. Similarly, you can have the best actors in the world. No story, no money. It can be challenging. So it's all about finding the right dynamic and the right. I guess, the balance of story, talent and capital.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Right. And well, let me ask you so so I get asked constantly by filmmakers, about how do you get money for your movies? How do you raise financing for your films? And I always tell them a very similar thing to what you say, is like, you know, it all depends. And there's also the genre involved there too. There's that there's that other pillar, which is genre, because if you have all of those things, and it's a drama, it's a much tougher sell. To sell internationally depends on this talent. Of course, you know, that's the thing with all of this stuff. It's all variable like it like oh, well, Meryl Streep's in it. But I've seen movies with Meryl Streep in it, that don't do money in the box office, even though it's Meryl Streep, and the story was good and things like that. So what advice do you have for filmmakers who are trying to raise financing for their half a million dollar budget movie or a quarter million dollar budget movie or million dollar budget movie? What advice do you have in today's marketplace? Which is pretty insane. for financing?

Wayne Godfrey 8:31
Is it is it isn't these? I mean, that's a really good question. I think there are a number of variables that one has to consider with what's the best advice for that question. So the first thing is, what is the budget level? What are you trying to achieve? What are your expectations both for you as the filmmaker and for your investors. So that's a very important thing to start with. Just like any business, just a movie is a business, you are starting a new company. So this new company has an objective, make the asset and distribute it to hopefully generate a return on investment. So what is the most efficient way to make it? What is the right and appropriate budget level? That is a normal thing that people kind of jump over? Some movies are made too small, and some movies are made too big? What is the appropriate budget level for the movie and that is very much an equation of where is its home? Where will it land? Where do you think the best opportunity is to monetize the movie, we are in a golden age of distribution with the streamers and broadcasters but that doesn't make it any easier to license to them. Or to sell to them. You still need a quality story, you still need to package it, you still need to potentially have a great execution. So but you know that your upside is capped. You're not got that box office. You know, super sky high potential return you pretty much have a limited or capital return when you license to a streamer because they buy it for extra amount of money. And doesn't matter whether one person watches it or you know, everyone watches it, you're pretty much getting that a fixed amount of money. So what is your expectation for the movie? What is the direction of travel? And I think raising capital in this market requires, like, I mean, it's never been easy, let's be honest, it just, it's never been easy to raise money. So you have to look at a my view, it's always about an eye, my whole approach has always been about offsetting as much risk as possible for any investor or lender entering into an investment infill. As a strategy that I wear, has always been low risk, and, and kind of get in, get out and do another one. And it's a different strategy. And there's not it's not the only strategy, not the best strategy is just the way that my head works. I always look to pre sell, or to offset risks with any kind of quantifiable revenue stream, which may affect my upside, it may reduce the potential of the home run, but it is going to certainly reduce the likelihood of a Wipeout.

Alex Ferrari 11:16
So use that analogy. I love the homerun analogy, because so many filmmakers go up to bat and they're always expecting the homerun, they're always expecting the box office hit. But what's not sexy is the bunts the the single the base hit stealing a base pushing another man base at the end of the day, you have runs coming in runs coming in? Is it as sexy as a Grand Slam? Is it as a sexy as a Grand Slam with everybody on base?

Wayne Godfrey 11:41
No, I people buying t shirts with my name on it, you know, autograph off to the man again. I'm not really into baseball. So I don't really can't really play the analogy as well as someone else good. football, soccer. I got it, you know?

Alex Ferrari 11:57
Right, right.

Wayne Godfrey 11:58
You're absolutely right. I'm the guy who's just gonna get on first base every time. But every time as opposed to one in 20, I get a home run, which will be great in that 20th. But the 19 before have been held. Now, it's okay, almost if wanting 20 covers the cost of the 19 before because if that's a strategy, a portfolio approach where we'll put in X amount of money and seven movies on the basis that one or two will hit the rest might not but the one or two will cover in spades, all the other investments, that's okay, as well. It's just not really how my head works. So I've always gone for the ones the singles, get in, get out, get our money back and go again. And, and that's one of the reasons I think that, you know, I've had a lot of there's been a lot of movies

Alex Ferrari 12:47
that, yeah, it's an obscene amount. It's an obscene amount of movies you've made.

Wayne Godfrey 12:52
Because I don't have that kind of, you know, that emotional attachment to these movies in this one, I'm in them, they're still my babies don't get me wrong, I love them. But they're not about you know, nurturing this little child to flourishing forever, and then living with it and never letting it leave the house and, you know, staying to their teenager and thinking, gosh, is it ever gonna leave? You know, I'm kind of like, get out the house go move on to another one.

Alex Ferrari 13:24
I completely understand. And, and, but I have to ask you, because I, you know, my show and I've been known to, you know, talk about the darker side of distribution, which is the predatory distribution. These are some of your thoughts. You've heard some of my thoughts. Okay. So, yes, if you've heard of a few of them, so I was listening to your your fantastic audio book. Oh, really? Oh, you're promoting the film? intrapreneur? Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. It's terrific. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. But so I'm assuming with 125 plus projects you've done, you have been paid on time perfectly from every single deal you've ever made from every distributor. Oh, I mean, literally, sometimes they just send me money or even ask for it. for pleasure. So if anyone listening, there's a lot of sarcasm right now running in the room. So how do you what are your experiences when and I'm assuming early on in your career? Probably. I don't know if you still run into these problems now. But, but earlier in your career, I'm sure you had to deal with issues like this, and I'm sure you've probably dealt with throughout your career.

Wayne Godfrey 14:44
Yeah, and it's not an issue that is, you know, isolated to any one individual. It's just the way the industry works. You know, as you said, and I hear you talking about it. We live in a very opaque industry. With studio accounting, I know you use that reference.

Alex Ferrari 14:58
Hollywood accounting Hollywood accounting in

Wayne Godfrey 14:59
Hollywood. Counting. And, you know, I mean, we'll talk about it soon, hopefully. But you know, one of the kind of drivers of of starting purely My, my, my latest company, was because of my frustration with the lack of transparency and the opaque reporting, and the kind of will just the the, the within with millions of dollars of assets, as you talked about at the beginning, high risk ventures that require millions of dollars of investment, you spend years developing and making projects and living with them every minute of the day. And then you hand them over to a distributor, and you don't hear anything for months, if not years. And then you get a one page state. That's your report that says nothing. We'd like a few lines that has no detail. And you're thinking, I spent eight years of my life making this thing and this is what I get. Yeah, exactly. And doesn't make sense. And nothing makes sense. And it drives you mad. And so, yes, I have a little bee in my bonnet about the quality of reporting. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't some fantastic district grid who agreed to and spectable and communicate Yes, and there are and I've worked with a lot of them, and they are fantastic. And, you know, I always try and gravitate to those sorts of individuals in all walks of business life, because people that communicate well, in good, bad or indifferent, tend to be good people to work with. Even if it's bad news, you're hearing about it. It's a difficult, difficult thing. And I appreciate as well, that if you're juggling a lot of distributions, and lots of different films and reporting that comes from all these different sources are not instantaneous. So getting transparent reporting, not even just distributor, but from the various retailers or sources of distribution are all very bitty, complicated, different formats, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. It's hard. It's complicated. So I acknowledge that, but there has to be a better way. And likewise, as creators, as participants within a movie, whether you're, you know, an actor, writer, director, costume, you know, if you haven't participated, it should, you should have a, in my view, anyway, a regular and transparent view on how the assets performing. And, you know, you find them out things so late, Alex, that he can't do anything to check with the lifecycle of that asset. What's the point of getting report, nine months after the release to be told it didn't quite work in this way, because the marketing wasn't very good. If it was, if you knew about it in real time, you might be able to do something about it. Hell,

Alex Ferrari 17:54
you might know real time just like within 30 days, within 30 days, it would be nice.

Wayne Godfrey 18:01
so poorly actually was one of the things that purely kind of my company, purely capital was really came out this idea that we deserve better transparency, we preserve a system where you can see how your assets less opaque and more open and be more inclusive with all the beneficiaries around an asset within reason, of course. Right. Exactly. And

Alex Ferrari 18:29
so with within purely Dell, it's apparently so how, explain what purely capital is and what it what it's doing and how it's kind of changing the game a little bit for for distributor filmmakers.

Wayne Godfrey 18:43
Well, one of the challenges in this changing face of consumption is we are licensing content increasingly to streaming platforms. And you may or may not be familiar or your listeners may or may not be familiar that actually, when you license to the likes of Netflix, Amazon, Disney sky and UK, Viacom, Comcast, all of these guys, they pay you a license fee but typically over two to five years. So you can end up with quarterly payments, contracted payments that take quite a long time to get paid. And that is killer. If you've gone and raised that half 1,000,002 million bucks to make that indie film. You know you slow to do that. You know how hard it is to raise that money but you've achieved that goal. You've made that film you've then done the holy thing of selling it, licensing it to Netflix, Amazon, Disney, whatever. You're winning. And then you decide on here, you've got to wait 36 months to get paid. It's like this is hard work. So purely was designed to basically completely accelerate that so we basically give you the money today. And we wait the 36 months for Netflix, Amazon Disney to pay so We crystallize that contracted income, as soon as you've contracted with that, s VOD platform or broadcaster, and we accelerate the money to your bank account today. So you can refinance your investors, you can go and make your next movie, if you're a distributor, you can go and buy more assets. So to basically keep those businesses keep these people moving, so they don't have to keep waiting for long dated contracted revenues. And that was, that's what period is all about

Alex Ferrari 20:28
that, and that's brilliant. Because I've heard this, I've heard the same stories from from partners of mine who who've sold to Netflix and, and, and to all the streamers and that you're like, Okay, we got 100,000. Great, yeah, they're gonna start paying at the end of year two, and it's gonna be over the next four years, and it's gonna, like trickle in little by little. So that 100 grand will essentially be maybe 10 to 15,000, a quarter, or something along those lines, and you're just like, you'll grow old, before you get all the money. And it's like, oh, my God, this is brutal. And

Wayne Godfrey 21:04
you write that email to your investors, like, hey, congratulations. By the way, I can't pay you for three years. It's like a, what a What a bummer. So, you know, I witnessed this problem firsthand, you know, we had the great and, you know, is a great, you know, achievement and feeling when you license to a great home. And, and this not critical on the business models of Netflix, Amazon, Disney, you know, we understand that they have to spend, and they are spending billions of dollars on content to serve their global consumers, and subscribers with amazing amounts of content. So if you're lucky enough to be selected and chosen, it's brilliant. But waiting for money, just as a pain, it doesn't matter what walk of life, you know, you don't want to chase money, you don't want to wait for it. And that's what we're trying to solve and trying to find a way to do that in with technology, with efficiency with a standardized approach that creates a, it's super easy for any rights owner, producer or distributor to just crystallize that revenue stream, and it doesn't matter if it's 100 grand, you know, we can do, you know, small amounts of money all the way up to significant millions of dollars at a time.

Alex Ferrari 22:13
Right? And then I'm assuming you take a percentage of what like, where's where's the rub? As far as III mean, come on. Exactly. So but but the service? Yeah,

Wayne Godfrey 22:21
we get a discount. It's very competitive. It's bank pricing. But yes, count money. So we give you 95 cents on the dollar type thing. Right?

Alex Ferrari 22:31
Which I mean, I'll it's Right, right. That's the difference. Like, okay, you can wait three or four years, or I could I could pay you 5%. And I have it on that. Yeah, essentially, effective, whatever, that way. It's something small. And then now you're like, Okay, great. So now I have that 100 grand, I can then repay my financers. And my investors, and now they're happy because they get their money back. And they're like, Hey, can I can I do another one? Can? Yeah. Because I promise you, if you if you call them up and go, Hey, I'm waiting three years from my for you have to pay you. Oh, yeah, I have this other project. They're going to go here. That's nice.

Wayne Godfrey 23:06
Yeah. Or could we when the money's back in three years, if you still have the project, you know, right. So that's but but you know, these are real world problems. Cash Flow is a real world problem. And also the time because the money, the money in your hand today is worth more than it is in three years time, because you can do things with it, you can make more films, you can make more money from it. So, you know, we, you know, we're trying to help. But there's more to it than that Alex, and this alludes to the hunt of transparency and opaque nature reporting, the whole system is fully transparent. So one of the strategies we're developing in the verticals is to plug in all your revenue streams and provide an instant, kind of real time reporting system for films, not just from the distributor, but from the ultimate retailer. So you can see how your assets are performing in real time, and then dispersed to your beneficiaries. Also, in real time, any collected revenue. So really trying to change this idea of having to wait weeks and months for money, but also reporting and information and trying to give it in the palm of your hand on your iPhone, or your Samsung wherever you are in the world. You can be like, Oh, this we're doing or you know, we did we sold, you know, 1000 units today or whatever.

Alex Ferrari 24:21
That's fantastic. And also wanted to ask you so with with, where do you see streaming going, because, and VOD, in general because, I mean, there's basically the three categories fit VOD on a VOD. Avon has a very strong place right now for independent film. It's where I see the most revenue being generated for the lower end. movies that don't have big stars in it. s VOD. Obviously, if you can get the five deals. Amazing. If you can get a Netflix deal in a bought you know or Hulu, nice nice junk, awesome. T VOD, unless you drive traffic is pretty much dead, in my opinion, or has the star involved like if you have a star involved that means people like you If you got john travolta throw by or Bruce Willis go by, people will probably rent it because of them. But if you don't have that star and you can't drive traffic to VOD is essentially a dead issue as opposed to what it was 1015 years ago. Do you agree? I,

Wayne Godfrey 25:13
I have to agree. I think I think I think as you said, streaming is export is the holy grail, if you can get a license on a streamer that will pay you up front, or even over two, three years, great. transactional and evil are a lot more challenging to quantify value. And with transactional because of the plethora of free content available on a VOD, and through a VOD. And yes, it's not free, you have to watch ads, but you know, in terms of the consumer spend its time as opposed to cash that they're spending. In my opinion, it's harder and harder to justify the 499 or 799, or 999 acquisition of a rental or purchase of a movie. The commodity of owning an asset, a movie. I think it with the younger generation certainly just doesn't, there's no value to it, having the box. I mean, I used to have racks of boxsets and physical alphabetical order, every movie

Alex Ferrari 26:19
was I had my I had my color coordinated by Studio. Wow. And they were all VHS and they were all VHS. So I was DVD I was getting into I had DVD too. I'm not that much older than you. But yeah.

Wayne Godfrey 26:38
Okay, so I was reading but I mean, and there was like, you know, so much joy of picking up the DVD looking, you know, watching the boxes, the special features, and then seeing them on the wall or seeing them at the racks. And I did it with CDs as well, I had, I mean, it was like my thing, I was almost a bit obsessive, I loved it. Now, I mean, if I have any, I'm in luck, I'm like, I can't have anything physical, you know, I can't have paper. And then like anything, everything's gonna go. So you know, it's a such a different mindset. So, and to me the idea of renting or purchasing something where it feels like it could be or should be available on on one of the many subscription platforms or Avon, I think is harder. But I think nice content and weather's nice ordinances, there is going to be a world for for, you know, clever, targeted marketing to be able to drive transactional revenues. Pricing is also really key thing, you know, we look at transactional, it's actually, I think, probably overpriced, and maybe with the reduction of rental and purchase as a price point that can also maintain the lifespan of a transaction opportunity. But discovery is the key Alex? I mean, how do you find this stuff? As we said, everything is available. Everything every movie ever made, ever is available. So how do you how do you stand out in that crowd? and marketing discovery influences? You know, being able to, you know, market or identify your audience and communicate with them. That's going to be critical.

Alex Ferrari 28:17
Yeah. And as filmmakers, I think I've been while you've been reading my book, it's about finding that niche, that niche audience creating product for that niche, creating ancillary revenue streams from that movie, all these other things that you can do. I think that is the future for indie indie filmmakers.

Wayne Godfrey 28:33
It made me feel like I'm an a musician, when you were talking like that. And when you talk about in the book, it made me feel like how does an indie artist build a career as a musician in this world? I don't think it's too different to an indie filmmaker. You need to build that fan base that can that that audience that can travel with you and grow with you. And just like a great indie artists can have a fantastic life and career, putting some music out going gigging selling some doing some live appearances and have a lovely and oh, you know, a pretty good life as long as they build the you know, enough momentum. And indie filmmaker can do exactly the same thing.

Alex Ferrari 29:13
Yeah, exactly. And I look at the look at the brands that we follow. I mean, Edgar Wright, or Scorsese, or Spielberg. Now mind you, most of those names I just mentioned, were built in a different times. And they were they were basically marketed for free by the studios. So they were able to build their brands off the back of the studios. But there's a lot of independent filmmakers coming up now, who in again, you don't need millions. You just need a core group that love what you do, and you make products that for a certain price, sell it to them, the act, give them access to those films. And you could do it again and again. I've had people like that on my show who've done like 20 movies and the range of from $5,000 movies to 150 The $1,000 movies even sometimes up to half a million dollars, and they have the same audience following them. And they just and they just keep going, and they've built their careers like that. That is the future. But that is, but that's work. And a lot of independent filmmakers want to live in the dream world where Spielberg and Scorsese came up in. And that's not the real world anymore, man. It's not.

Wayne Godfrey 30:22
Yeah, you say that. But then, you know, you can go make a really good indie film and end up with a, you know, a Marvel movie. So yes, you and you can get pumped out of this little indie pond and put into the sea. It's very, it's, but that's but that's the lottery ticket.

Alex Ferrari 30:40
That's the lottery ticket. That isn't it's, it's not. It's you talking about one in 1,000,001 in 2 million filmmakers get that opportunity. And I've had other like I've had, I always talk about the 90s. And the the basically independent film, as we know it today started in the 90s. There was independent films in the 60s 70s 80s, of course, but 90s is what we as, as a society really under kind of grasp independent filmmakers started with the Sundance movement. So with the richer link letters, and the Robert Rodriguez and the Kevin Smith and all those kinds of guys, and I've had the pleasure of speaking to some of these guys, and I talked to them now. And I go, so slacker, would it. Would it pop today? You know, wood brothers, MC wood brothers, MC Boleyn pop today. And I when I talked to ed ed was like, Yeah, probably not. It was the right place. right time, right movie. 100%.

Wayne Godfrey 31:31
And, you know, you know, I think that's a fast that is a such, that's the luck, right?

Alex Ferrari 31:40
But replaced by Samurai product at

Wayne Godfrey 31:42
all walks of life, in any business in any environment. You know, in any industry, it's about right time, right place, right opportunity, right person, right hustle. You know, I mean, my first job getting back to it, you know, like, I was late one day, something happened because I was staying late in the office, I if I if I worked for this chap called Nick quested, a fantastic filmmaker in New York. And I was in New York, and I'm in New York before and know anyone, so I'm in the office late on my own. And then the phone rings, they got a music video, no one's around. I'm helping write this thing. It it pops. Is that luck? Is that hustle? Is that the right timing? Is that because I didn't know anyone in the city? So I love being in this unit, like, what are all the variables that had to happen for that to happen. And you go back and think in all aspects of anything that was positive. Ultimately goes back to that story is the star, star with a great story, you got everything done for you. It's never easy. every movie doesn't matter what the budget is, how lucky you are to get the right actor, director. It's hard. There are problems on everyone. And you just got to navigate your way through and conduct all the different components. I mean, this is what I see myself as, as a producer conductor, you'll see all the various moving pieces in this orchestra over film, to try and be hopefully playing the same song in harmony.

Alex Ferrari 33:13
Yeah, and it's, it's not easy at all. Now being a producer, and you're being a producer at the indie level is has its own set of issues and challenges. You know, when you're working on a $50,000 movie, which a lot of people are like, how can you make a movie for 50,000 bucks. I'm like, I made a movie for five grand and sold it to Hulu. So it's possible. But

Wayne Godfrey 33:35
I mean, that's amazing. I couldn't I didn't I wouldn't know how to do that.

Alex Ferrari 33:41
Right? It's a different. It's a different skill set. No question. Now you throw me in a $200 million project, I'd be like, I probably need some help here. Guys. This is not the world. You know, this is a whole other conversation. But I also could mean a lot more problems. No. And also, that's just a different mentality a different way. It's different kind of organization, the politics involved out of work with people. It's a whole other conversation. But you know, depending on which what kind of projects you're working on, creates different budget levels create different kinds of challenges. So you were talking about being an orchestra you've worked with some pretty remarkable filmmakers over over your career. Like, like Martin Scorsese, Rob Ryan or Werner Hertzog Taylor Hackford. How do you conduct Scorsese or Hertzog like how do you I'm not saying you're like telling them what to do or anything, but how do you kind of work within that kind of that kind of, I mean, these guys, when they walk in a room, their entire catalogue walks in the room with them.

Wayne Godfrey 34:46
And you know, I mean, you mentioned some of the greatest filmmakers that you know, have ever existed and you don't you don't you know, filmmaking is a collaboration and is when you're working with increasing talent. You know, I'm I'm never the one put my hand up and say this is how you do it. Especially when I have no clue. I'm not a director, I don't have that skill set. I tried made a couple of short films, they weren't very good. And I realized quickly that that wasn't my skill set. I love the concept of storytelling. I love the ideas and the generation, I love throwing ideas in the pot, but you're not going to tell specialists and experts what they do in the same way. I wouldn't tell a doctor, what's wrong with me? Because he's the expert.

Alex Ferrari 35:37
But I went to I went to Web MD, what are you talking about once a while? md.com? I looked it up. Doc, I need this. You thought?

Wayne Godfrey 35:45
So no, I and in my role as a producer, I'm typically coming in as a finance here. So my role was really specific. I helped get these films made, I hope put them together. But I'm not that guy on the on the on the line production over the over the shoulder of the director giving him a nod like, you know, what about that angle? Like? Firstly, no one does that with some of the tablet talking about, but it's just not who I am. I am the deal guy. I'm the guy that helps figure out how to put this together. How do you how do you fit this square peg in the round hole with the amount of available resources we have all the challenges we have. And, you know, getting it in getting in in that hole and getting that hopefully nice and cohesive, flowing relationship between all the parties. So, you know, the relationship I had with some of these directors is honestly in some cases, very hands off, very polite, and wishing them very well. And in some of the ones that it has been a bit more intimate, it does depend very much on the relationship and the challenges and the compromises needing to be made by production. Because the relationship, I believe, between producer and director is that collaborative. You know, you have to share a shared vision. But sometimes you have different forces, the producer is dealing with strains of capital, money, investors, shareholders, distributors, you know, that kind of thing. And the director is pushing for his vision, that creative, that creative, and sometimes even where the best one in the world, they're not always aligned. To say the least, they're not always aligned. So it's about how do you navigate that workplace? How do you navigate that political, you know, it's you goes, personalities, and also knowing when to shut up, like isn't the time the place, and I'm not the guy to say anything here because it's not going to make anything better. And try and fix problems. And you know, producing this problem solving, producing is finding the problem and identifying it hopefully early and solving it before it's even a problem for someone else.

Alex Ferrari 38:03
That's a great, great definition of what a producer because it's producing is such as, like, kind of nebulous thing, like, because anyone can call themselves a producer, you don't have to go to seven years of school to have, you know, PGA at the end of your, at the end of your name as a producer, something like that to like your producer, anybody and trust me, I live in LA. So everybody's a producer here and everybody walks up and they give you a business card and like, Hey, I'm a producer, I have various projects and multiple stages of development. Of course you do, and all this kind of stuff. And you know, you know, I'm sure and I'm sure they're all fantastic. And it goes yeah, we've been talking to we've been talking to Marty about this thing. I'm like, I'm sure you have what have you done before? What have you done before? What have you done before I've done to shorts, I'm like, that seems like a solid business plan. But

Wayne Godfrey 38:54
that's just a bit of a problem solving problem solving. And you know, part of the first problem is, you know, how do I get this in the hands of someone that could actually pay for it, be in it, direct it you know, that's the first problem right point number one is so how do you

Alex Ferrari 39:07
how do you develop a project from scratch how do you how do you approach that problem? And as I mean some movies I think your look your producer on and then some of your executive producers on some more financier some more

Wayne Godfrey 39:19
executive which is when I'm more involved as I say in the financial arrangements and structuring and hopefully deal gathering side but I have you know done a number of producing from scratch like the foreigner my Yeah, Jackie Chan on Campbell was a book that I option called the Chinaman by Steven letter, which I was given by my late father to read when I was a young boy who didn't read another thing that you know, great life lesson, read a lot. Read a lot, read everything. Understand what people are making and why they're getting made. I mean, it's all there for you. You know, anyone who says to Me, I don't under Dan, I got this stuff. It's not no one's liking it. And they don't read or look at why the things that are getting made are getting made and what were the things that made that happen. But so yes, I have developed a number of things from scratch.

Alex Ferrari 40:12
The foreigner is remind me the foreigner is the one with who else was in it besides Jackie? champions Bros. That's what I thought I loved that film. Loved it. I love that film. Yeah, Jackie was for me. Jackie was amazing. Amazing in that film.

Wayne Godfrey 40:26
What is it? Like to print David Marconi, directed by Martin Campbell who made to Bond movies?

Alex Ferrari 40:33
So how so Jackie? So Jackie is a legend, man. Like he's like, I'm legend. Like, he's so legendary. How was it working with Jackie on set? Like, because you were a producer on that. So you, you were on set with Peter gay, whatever, that whatever that thing. Yeah, exactly. So how how was it working with I mean, a genius. Genius.

Wayne Godfrey 40:55
He is he is he is the hardest working and just most unbelievable. talent and Marty Campbell.

Alex Ferrari 41:01
Oh, amazing.

Wayne Godfrey 41:03
Unbelievable director. But he he you know, he puts actors through their paces, he you know, again, again, again, again, and he knows what he wants and how he wants it. And he doesn't stop until he gets it. And working with you know, people like Jackie and peers. It's just amazing to be around such incredible talent. And these guys have made movies for so many years. They when you look at action, and the way that Jackie, you know, architects or fight seem and creates that with the stone crew and with the director with the idea of the vision of the movie and how the action into interrelates It's incredible to see as it is, is still inspiring. Energy is inspiring, you know, he keeps you going you look at when a 65 year old, you know, incredible talent is got the energy in his app and his clothing like that, you know, it makes it lifts everyone around you.

Alex Ferrari 41:57
Is he still doing a stunt?

Wayne Godfrey 41:59
He is doing? He is the man? And notice, do you know that you correct? You know, you're designing the sequences and the fight as well, which is just so much work. And the meticulous attention to detail that goes into everything you see. is exceptional. It blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind.

Alex Ferrari 42:27
Wow, that was

Wayne Godfrey 42:29
amazing people. And the whole crew that go with him, you know?

Alex Ferrari 42:33
Oh, no. Yeah, I heard I've heard Yeah, his his legendary, his team. Amazing. Yeah, it's remarkable. Now one thing I wanted to ask you as a financier because this is the biggest dilemma filmmakers have when they're packaging a project. It's the chicken and egg dilemma. Oh, I got I need cast before I can get money, but I need money to get cast. How do you do it?

Wayne Godfrey 42:58
Yeah, I mean, it's fake it till you make it. It's really hard. It's super hard. You know, even when you've made a bunch of movies, the differences when you say you can fund or you can pay someone something, you know, there's a little more believability in it, make? Sure. So if I'm calling an agent or an actor and saying this, we'd like to make an offer, and you know, this is what we can pay, you know, I'm only doing that knowing that I can deliver that. And, you know, obviously when you're starting, you may use the reconnect, you know that if you able to land x actor, the finances will come rolling. It's really hard. I mean, increasingly, it's, I guess it's getting even harder because the competition with film and TV as well now, and yeah, it's, I wish I had an answer for you. The only thing I can say is the great stories rise to the top actors gravitate toward great roles, great parts and great stories. And so you, in my view, you have to if you can't afford the number, you have to position the project as a must do project. It's not about the money. Now, that won't be music to the agencies, but for the actor who may be getting, you know, a dozen opportunities a month or more. They want to do things that are going to move their, you know, their career forward or move their their value

Alex Ferrari 44:32
their values, and

Wayne Godfrey 44:34
even just their the their interests. And so, think about who you're going after. And why this part this role this movie means will mean something to them because you can't just dangle the check. That's gonna make them pay attention. It's got to be centered around the part and the role. And, and and i think dressing up offers with really personalized letters and visions. From the director, because ultimately the director vision is key when approaching talent. And so, you know, really be creative about how you position your movie and the opportunity to the actor. Do a video of the director talking to the actor like he's in the room, pitching the roll? Is he more likely to watch a three minute video? or read your email and script? Maybe he might just read the thing. He might watch the three minute video? I don't know, maybe not. But it might stand out over the email, it might stand out over the whole script. So get them into the story. Get them looking at the part and take it Yeah, the money is good. We got the money. It's coming. We got it.

Alex Ferrari 45:45
Now there's so many I run this I ran into this so much in my career, and I was this early on my career, you probably were a little bit as well is the delusional factor, where you are like, like that guy. I was just making fun of like, I was like, Oh, yeah, I got this card. I'm a producer. And I mean, I'm talking to Marty. And like, there's this delusional factor. And there's a lot of this goes on, and some of it is very conscious. Like, I'm just trying to boast myself up, fake it till you make it kind of scenarios. And then there's people who really truly are delusional, like completely delusional about like, I'm gonna put I've had conversations. Yeah, we're pitching this to Tom Cruise. I'm like, Are you are you are you crazy? Like, I'm like, I like but that but that's the delusion that Oh, he's This is the part for him. It's going to be the thing. I'm like, Guys, look at the track record.

Wayne Godfrey 46:35
I say that. But when I started, I was 25 years old. And I approached Jackie Chan to be in a movie that had no money, really, it had nothing. And but I knew, you know, I had a 65 year old Asian lead, that there was only really four or five actors in the world that could play this part. And he was number one. He was number one. And so you knock on the door, and you try. And actually, I should tell you the first time it was a no, it took time, and tenacity and hustle and staying with it. And also talking to Donnie Yen, and Andy Lau and Chow Yun Fat, and going through the process to eventually have all the right things in place and then end up closing the deal.

Alex Ferrari 47:20
How many years did that take? How many years does that take?

Wayne Godfrey 47:25
From first trying to attack because it took a few years to write and adapt the book to the script. Because I was again, I had no money. I had an amazing writer and David mccone, who wrote me the state Mission Possible to, you know, a fantastic array of movies, anyone had been paid, which is not unreasonable. But I had to kind of piecemeal it together. So that took a couple of years. But by the time we finally started the journey of packaging,

Alex Ferrari 47:52
I think it took about three years to from the from the moment you started to the moment you attach Jackie,

Wayne Godfrey 47:59
from the moment I had a script I could go out with

Alex Ferrari 48:02
write it then how long did it take you before from beginning of the project to the very end when you're shooting? Seven years? Seven years? Okay. So I don't consider that delusional. I, you're you're going for it at that point. And then you actually are creating things that make that happen, as opposed to, here's a script, Tom Cruise, you should understand that I'm a genius, and you need to work with me. That's the delusion, and I'm sure you've run into these guys.

Wayne Godfrey 48:31
No, I mean, I'm probably one of these guys. Right? Because it works. Right? But no, you're right. And I think that you remember earlier we were talking about what is the right, you know, framework for this movie, it's the same as distribution is the same as talent, it's the same as the amount of money you're raising, don't raise a million dollar movie and try and get Tom Hardy. I mean, it's never gonna work. You know, it's not the right fit, go and get the best person in that kind of category of budget and everything. Because just having a major star on a movie has its costs that come with it, let alone the fee for them, there is a certain amount of costs that come with just having major time along with the movie. Yep. And that's just because you've got a little bit of money isn't always enough. So I think it is always about positioning yourself with the right approach. That doesn't mean you shouldn't aim high. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have aspirations to go for the best correct and that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and hustle but there is a there is a if you're trying to make you know, as you say hit set, the biggest and the best, you know, a you got to be prepared to wait a long time, a long time, because you got to be patient. When you're dealing with people that are the best in an industry in any industry that busy thank good at what they do. They're going to be busy, you are not a priority. So if you're happy to wait then great, but there's pressure with waiting and you know, it's eats eats you. So you're not going to be doing other things, juggling a lot of balls. or manage your expectations. Be real, be practical and get it in my view me. Isn't it worth just getting this made and making another one and another one and maybe in three or four movies? Because you've gone from 2 million to 5 million to 9 million to 50 million. Now you're doing the 40 million film with Tom Cruise?

Alex Ferrari 50:26
Well, Tom, Tom's not doing 40 million, but but you're in his high, he might he might again, he might come in and say hi, yes, it depends on who the director is. And you never know. I know. Of course, of course. No, of course, of course. Now, do you do? Would you recommend reaching out to actors directly through their through their production companies and seeing if that's an angle of like, bringing them into the financial bringing them into a as a producer? Because that might be more appetizing, as opposed to just going directly through agents?

Wayne Godfrey 51:04
Absolutely, I will be trying every angle possible to try and position myself as a project that should be on the radar of the target actor, whether it be through their production entity, through their agent through their management through the guy, that's the valet the best restaurant they go to. If there is a route in, you got to try and navigate. That's the hustle. Right, Alex? It's about getting in the door. Okay. I've got I was involved in a film called war with Grandpa. Yeah, and fantastic story. And the producer of that film, had the best hustle story of how he got the script to dinero. And he just was relentless. And wouldn't accept no. And then he would, you know, leave them everywhere and hand them to everyone around him. And ultimately, eventually, they never read it. needed, you know, basically engaged in the project, although there was a lot of work that had to be done before he attached, but it got through a process and bump is in the film is number one choice was easy. No. Did he house it? Yes, it was commendable. And I find that those stories are inspiring. They they make me feel like great about life. Because you're like, yes, there is a way you don't have to always have, you know, buckets of cash and, you know, be perfect you can do it isn't easy. But yes, of course, if you feel but but but going smart, look at what the slate is look at what they gravitate towards. Don't go and send j generals production company, something that he would never gravitate towards. And they've never made the never associated with, do your homework research, understand what the businesses and people are all doing and making. And it's not always easy. But there is so much information available on the web. And there's so much access to information now that the more prepared you can be to go in to engage with anyone director, producer, financier, do your homework.

Alex Ferrari 53:10
Now, we you mentioned something a little bit ago, which I really doesn't get talked about as much. But if you're lucky enough to get one of these guys or gals who come on to your show up a name talent, you're like, great, I raised a million dollars, and I'm paying x star to show up for five days for a million dollars. And you're like solid, but then you forget that with that they're not going to sit in a chair and drink, you know, Kool Aid. Like you got to get them a trailer, there's gonna probably be an entourage there's gonna probably be so there's cost involved. And I've seen other producers that like we weren't ready for this and kill it killed our budget, because, you know, Nick Cage showed up not saying this Nick Cage, but Nick Cage showed up someone like Nick Cage showed up, he's like, I need what's my trailer? What is that? I can't go in that, like, all these things that you're not aware of?

Wayne Godfrey 54:04
You're absolutely right. I know, everyone is different, of course, you know, fair to generalize. But, but there is an associated an expected level of professional professionalism and support, you know, you don't change in the back of a room where there's a little curtain, if you are, you know, in the middle of nowhere, you need a private place with a you know, with a place for them to, you know, have no do what they do to do get in the zone prep. And yeah, 100% The, the, you know, the, the, the support and the budget team requirements that go with any major talent is often under thought of in independent film production. And, and, and it's a it's a shame because, you know, in some respects it's like, well, it seems like a ways, but it's not you, you can't look at it like that. It's about professionalism and trust me, they will feel better, they will come on set, you know, free, ready to work ready to, you know, do what you want them to do in the best in the best shape. And the challenge comes I find not always about, you know, packaging for the major star that's coming. But then how that, you know, that affects the rest of the of the cast and the rest of the crew who may you know what I mean? Like because then you're like, Okay, well, we throw all the bells and whistles out for so and so. And then the rest of you you're in, you know, you're in the big the bus, we've got a bus for you, all of you can sit in the bus. It's great. It's warm,

Alex Ferrari 55:43
it's not air conditioned. It's not air conditioned. It's not. But this fans, we got fans. You got you got brown bag lunches, while he's eating. I think

Wayne Godfrey 55:54
it's about thinking about the overall and the other things that we just have a conversation. Again, communication is key. The biggest mistake to make is just assume it will be okay. It's okay to say listen, we don't have the budget for this. We would we're going to make you as comfortable as possible. This is our proposal, this is how we're going to do it. Is that going to be okay? We can give a bit here. But we can't do that. To communicate, communicate beginning. As soon as you just assume Well, we'll turn up and we'll we'll be alright.

Alex Ferrari 56:26
I'll deal figure it out. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Yeah,

Wayne Godfrey 56:28
that's where the problems happen. That's when you get people with their backup, and you're off to a bad start.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
Right? And, yeah, that's a thing that a lot of people don't talk about, either. It's just the politics of all of this. This is psychology. This is human behavior. you're you're you're being almost a politician, on how to negotiate egos, and, and agendas. And you know, maybe they had a bad night the night before, and how you have to deal with that. Like, I always ask my hairdressers, and my hair, my hair, my hair and makeup department like how they're doing it, because they're the first ones to hear what happened. They're the first ones to hear what happened the night before, like, Oh, I had a fight with my girlfriend or my boyfriend cheated on me like, okay, you want to know these things? Before they step on set. So I always ask my hair and makeup department, that kind of stuff. But that is. So how do you you know, you

Wayne Godfrey 57:22
can get a driver as well? Yeah. Always great. To be talking to you on the way in this morning, you know, did you have a coffee,

Alex Ferrari 57:32
and this, but this is this is the weird and it's just an insane world that we live in a movie in the movie business where our entire, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars that millions of dollars on the day are writing on did they have their coffee, sometimes

Wayne Godfrey 57:50
you'll you're throwing together a you know, a collective or personalities and experiences in one go and hoping it all gels together to make this magic sometimes comes together. And it's beautiful. And everyone's like, You're my best friends, I will love you for my wedding. And others, you're like, I never want to hear from you. Again. I don't care how good the job is, I'm not interested. You're a nightmare. And so it's it's a complete concoction. And you know, even when you do the you know, every film is different. And that's also awesome as well. That's one of the most magical things about what we do and how and the world we're in is that you meet amazing people. And you you work with amazing people who are brilliant what they do, and but some clicks and sometimes it doesn't, and the personalities arriving and the where all the eyes are focusing and all the attention and focusing can gel together beautifully. And they can be really not. and managing those situations is also really important job of the director and potentially the producers as well to really hope for the best result because it's one thing coming and doing the job weaving the lines turning up, you know, putting in a good day's work, but is another thing coming in like shining in that day. And as a filmmaker and as a producer, as an owner of a business and an asset you want everyone to shine. So how do you create a working environment to nurture that and support that and encourage it

Alex Ferrari 59:30
and that's what I love that you keep saying business and asset because it's something I've been yelling from the top of the mountains for a long time and filmmakers a lot of times get caught up with the magic of its art its story. And we are in this this crossroads between business it's show in business and and as a producer friend of mine says and as a producer friend of mine says the word business has twice as many letters as the word show and there's a reason because it is this art form mixed with this This, and a lot of the artists just want to focus on the art and the business want to focus on the business. And we have to find this happy, balanced, happy medium. But you have to, as a filmmaker, keep thinking, this is a business first, we're creating an art form within the realm of a business of an asset that is going to be sold in the marketplace. And you have to think that way. And all the greats, all those directors I just mentioned from Hertzog and Scorsese, and they all understand that they're amazing artists, but they understand the business of it.

Wayne Godfrey 1:00:32
They do. And you know why, because you respect the fact as a business, and you keep getting the work, you keep getting the opportunity to make more. It's not a hobby, it can be a hobby, it can be expensive, wonderful.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:48
parents say yeah, but

Wayne Godfrey 1:00:49
then don't, don't treat it like a hobby, then make films for fun, and enjoy the process. And don't worry about the monetization. That's all upside of it happens. But that's nothing but the majority of us in this industry, live by what we make. We support our families by how we how well we do with our work. And therefore, in the same respect you'd have for a teacher turning up to teach your kids or doctor going to look at you know, your thing or mechanic fixing your car. We are making movies, we're making assets that hopefully will entertain wide audiences. And that's great, but the aim of the aim for me anyway is to make something for less than you get for when you sell it.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:35
That's got to be the that's that's business that's that's just business. I had a I had a contract I had, I had a conversation with a filmmaker at AFM and they ran up to me and they're like Alex, Alex, I had a I got a deal. I got an mg. I'm like, great. What was your mg? Like, we got $35,000 mg. I'm like, fantastic. What was your budgets? Like it was $250,000. I'm like, okay, okay. Okay, so what, right, right, you're on the way what rights? Did you sell all of them? Okay, how long? Nine years. And they were ecstatic about it. Like we we sold it we got I'm like, that's not what business in the world. Does that make sense? Like, that's a complete, that's it. You're gonna that's a weekend. That's a

Wayne Godfrey 1:02:20
hobby. And that's the hobby camp. And you know, this, there's god, it's hard in his heart. And, you know, what we're in is we're in a we're in, in, in a brutal industry, it costs a lot the barrier to entry. Although technology and costs of production are down the barrier to entry is high, the competition is vast. And whilst there arguably has never been a better time to make a movie and get it exploited and distributed, because of the likes of Avon, because of the direct distribution channels to an audience, which is amazing and a wonderful opportunity. It's, it's, it's super difficult. It's super hard, and, you know, focus on story, building the best version of whatever that story is, then find the right director and talent that will enhance that project. That doesn't mean it has to be the megastar it needs to be the right level, and then financing it appropriately to what that package looks like.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:23
Now, you did a movie called 47 meters down, which I remember when it came out, and it exploded. It was like a huge box office hit. And it you know, arguably, I'm a fan of Mandy Moore. I watched this is us. I love Mandy but she's not a huge box office star. She's not you know, she's not, you know, bringing in tons of cash. But yet this movie exploded. And it was like a $5 million budget or something like that. If I read correctly, that tell me the story behind that. Tell me the story behind that. That must have been amazing.

Wayne Godfrey 1:03:55
So Mark lane and James Harris came to me with the project, they had already shot a promo with your hand as the director that was a you know, a minute and a half visual effects promo of a shock, basically Sure. And he was brilliant. He was brilliant. And I guess this promo cost them 40 Grand 35 Grand 40 grand and they had got this amazing visual effects house in the UK and but in Bournemouth that were new and hungry, and they put this together, and they went to Cannes or Berlin, and they pre sold the movie by about two and a half million straightaway. And then off of a shark engine, the Wise he would have a promo and a script and a director. That's it, no talent at this stage. And so they were looking to find a way to finance the film. And you know, as was the kind of focus of me, you know what I was doing back then lending against these presale distribution contracts. A UK tax credit and then putting up some, if you like gap or equity against the rest of the world felt like a smart play given the amazing work the price and altitude with the film sales agent. They were they did a terrific job, terrific job off this promo. And so we we, we made a deal. We worked with them to finance the movie and produce the film. And they executed a terrific movie. And I would say that at the time, you know, Bob Weinstein would no feedback his nose and everyone was looking good about a big theatrical release. And then we got to finish in the movie. And I remember we were in Cannes, we screened it for them privately as we did to some of the buyers and they turned around and said, No, we're not going to release it. It's gonna go straight to DVD. And we were bummed we thought we had a great movie. We obviously were, you know, not not relying but really hopeful that theatrical release would really give us the, the the upside we all were counting on. And so we managed to negotiate a deal where we can buy back the rights from North America. And by the way, they were phenomenal at the time, Bob. The notes he gave the they invested more money to do reshoots, we made a great move, but they just decided he wasn't going to get a release. So we managed to have a window of time to rebuy the movie, by repaying their investment and their mg. And a level uplift where a significant uplift, but the condition was we couldn't sell to any of their competitors. That's a really I mean, so no studio, know what they converted, no lines, gay, none of that. So we ended up having to have a very narrow pool of almost independent distributors, smaller distributors. And we did a screening. And amazingly, we managed to get the attention of Byron Allen. And he and his team, they're just jumped on it. They loved it, they saw the potential of this film. And in in, but the Weinstein decided that they were always going to release the movie on a certain date, and we had till that data to buy it back. And the thing was dragging, we got to release day. And the DVD dropped. It was in target, it was in Walmart, it was everywhere. On the day, we dropped the movie, we bought the movie back. barn when with a check down the beats and gave a check, got the deal done. We record the movie five hours later off the shelves, and then re built the whole movie up a year later to do the theatrical release. It was one of the most crazy experiences I've ever been involved with the stress and the excitement. And then Byron and his team did an unbelievable job. They put up a stupid amount of PNA money for a tiny little movie. They went everywhere and went nuts. And, you know, we also had the benefit in that year that this is us dropped. Mandy Moore suddenly, who was always a great actress, but became a star overnight, like within the year while we were messing around with all this stuff. And that helped us a lot and Clare Hall as well. I mean, we just had an amazing, amazing achievement and your hand is did a phenomenal job went on to make a sequel. It was just one of those amazing stories. But it came together really by the the smart approach that the filmmakers took to make a 35 3040 grand promo of a minute or half of a shop that looked amazing that just basically pitched this story and managed to pre sell the movie off the back of it with no talent. That's the same thing resells. And and actually, it's an amazing opportunity that if you have no the right kind of genre and the right kind of movie, it can be a fantastic strategy to raise 5 million, 7 million for a movie off the back of a killer promo killer trailer. And actually so that small seed investment to really create sizzle to then go in to go and sell it in the market can be a fantastic solution. amazing story.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:41
That's an array that's like that's a little like a lottery ticket.

Wayne Godfrey 1:09:46
When we have the cool people that legitimately bought the DVD in target and tell them they had to send it back to us. How did really because we were we record every DVD because it was and it wasn't called 47 meters down. It was called in into the deep fake called it. And so we had to recall every DVD we were getting piracy things going everywhere. We had to recall all that we had a year of with all of this stuff. It was it was amazing. But you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:10:17
to read a story, what are the many that does not happen? There's nothing like that happened.

Wayne Godfrey 1:10:24
Someone sent me I don't even know if we've got one here. I don't know where I've got it. But let you go into time. You could have bought it off the shelf legitimately in the morning by the afternoon it was gone. See, the cinema

Alex Ferrari 1:10:39
was fun. That's amazing. Now I want to ask you if I want to ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? Don't do it. Go. Just go. Be an accountant. Go bake a cookie.

Wayne Godfrey 1:10:57
I'm just drummed on there's a lot today. But stories are start focus on story, build the best version of whatever it is spend the time in square, spend the time and really, really believing in what you're making. And make sure that when you do get the opportunity and you do get in front of that actor, don't blow up. Research, be prepared.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:23
Okay, and what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Wayne Godfrey 1:11:31
I would say that happiness is not the destination, but the journey. Amen. And I think I struggled for many years in the destination and trying to get that happiness and that hit and that Jalen, but actually you look back over your shoulder. And we talked a bit about some of the experiences today. But that's the joy. The journey is the joy. So enjoy the ride, enjoy the journey, enjoy the nose, enjoy the yeses. And and you know, the success comes from the journey and not arriving at the destination.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:14
And three of your favorite films of all time. Oh, this is your podcast and not much to say. The station agent? Yeah. Great movie, great movie. I would say. I mean,

Wayne Godfrey 1:12:38
I love some of the rock. I would say one of my favorite all time action movies.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:43
Can we can we stop there for a second? I I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Whether you like Michael Bay or not. Michael Bay changed the way action films are made just like just like Tony Scott did when Tony Scott showed up before Tony Scott. And there's after Tony Scott before Michael Bay and after Michael Bay before the matrix, and after the matrix, there are certain movies that change the way they do it. The raw he touches he touches it and bad boys. But the rock is the film that and you know, my favorite definitive action movie of my youth. Oh, you know, a me love action movies the way and it's I love them. And it's a solid story. And it's amazing action and lies. Sean Connery and if you want a little bit more cheese, you can go watch Armageddon, which I also enjoy, but at a different level. Alright.

Wayne Godfrey 1:13:43
Most recently, I think you know, I loved parasite as well. Yeah. Recent, recent recent years. But yeah, I mean, I love movies. I love all films. I mean, I like bad movies. I like good movies. I just love that acts, the escapism of our craft.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:01
Did you Did you see the room? You've seen the room? Right? Oh, of course. The room is is a genius film. And everyone listening to the podcast knows I'm just a fanatic of the room, and of Tommy Wiseau and everything that that movie has done. But But did you see it by yourself? Or did you see it with other people? Because I don't. I'm probably other people. Yeah, because that's a movie you can't watch by yourself. You need to watch it with a group especially if you're a filmmaker with a group of filmmakers. I saw it with a group of filmmakers at Sundance one night in a loft while we were shooting my movie there. And no one really no one on the crew had seen it except for me. I'm like, oh, we're getting it tonight. And we're all watching it and everyone's just sitting there going. Is he using the same stock footage shot twice? Why? Why is he humping her stomach? What's going on? Like it's there's so much going on in that movie. It is so brilliantly bad. What are you? What are your Top three. Is that one of them? No. Well, I mean, it's the it's the best worst. It's the best worst movie I've ever seen. I just you just enjoy that. There's, I always tell people this, I'm like, there's bad and then there's bad that transcends good. So it gets so bad, that it is good. And, and you can't, you can't go after that. It happens naturally. You can't make a bad movie and hope that people will love it because the intention is wrong. The reason why the room is beloved by millions around the world is because Tommy was always trying to make the greatest film of all the time. That is why it is so brilliant. But when you try to make a cult film or a bad movie, people understand and if you didn't ever get to do it, but because there was such sincerity in the making of it, and it's like I get don't get me always seeing his lines and seeing swatting it's so for me, I always I always My favorites are I always say shot. The three that I could just throw off the top. Today Shawshank fightclub and the matrix, I mean, it just they work and and of course the Godfather and of course Raiders of the Lost Ark and of course jaws. Yeah. And of course, you know, taxi driver, and of course all these other amazing films. But those are the three that like their remote control, throw or waste. Like if you're watching something like oh, my God, I have to just I just have to watch it. You know

Wayne Godfrey 1:16:31
what? I love those movies where you no matter where you land in them, you really pick up pick them up by that?

Alex Ferrari 1:16:39
Yeah, and fight club and I'm I timeless, timeless and of course everything Kubrick and what was anything Kubrick made? Just I'm a huge ridiculous Kubrick fan. One day I'll make the pilgrimage to to England, to the archives there at the school and we'll take you to a football game. You know, we can you know, I can't wait now can you tell people where they can find out more about purely capital.

Wayne Godfrey 1:17:08
Amazingly, purely doc capital, it's just all in the title. So finest on purely and all your social medias. But by all means, check us out purely capital. And if you have any long dated contracts or revenues, we will happily let you get them sooner. And anyone got a you know any ideas about how to improve

Alex Ferrari 1:17:32
the lack of transparency around our industry. We're also excited to hear about those sorts of ideas. So we can try and help build products that will give you those tools when it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. And thank you so much for coming on the show. And I hope this episode helps a few people. we've thrown out a lot of information and a lot of information I'm sure you would have liked to have known 20 years ago and I definitely would like to know 20 years ago.

Wayne Godfrey 1:18:02
You know what the best thing you know to look at today is that we are in an established industry that is still finding his feet and changing today. And that's what's amazing, you know, and tomorrow will be different. So just just just keep hustling, right.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:17
Amen brother. Thank you. Bye!

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 310: Licking My Wounds Writing The Mask of Zorro for Hollywood with Randall Jahnson

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy this episode with guest host Scott McMahon.

Scott Mcmahon 0:48
We got to finish the interview I had with Randall Jahnson from Randalljahnson.com. Look it up on the website, get the link. But no, we were a part two because we ended because this is how bad I am. This is the never ending conversation by the way. Yeah, I hope it goes on and on. I hope there's like seven parts to it. But the thing is, the thing is I this is how bad I am if I was a real journalist, which I'm not, which, you know, explains a lot. Yes, is I wouldn't I would have, I would have taken the time to do lab and more research because on reading your website and everything because everything you were sharing with me was on your website. And but when you were telling me I was I was it was almost as if I was a new person, though, because I was like, Oh, really, I didn't know you work with all this, you know, you know, Henry Rollins and Stan Ridgway and you know, so that was exciting for me. But it was kind of neat, because being stupid as I was, is like I was hearing for the first time even though I could apply prep myself better by reading thoroughly through your website, as opposed to just glancing a few of the items when I first went to the website.

Randall Jahnson 2:40
Well, you can just peel the layers away like an onion. Yeah. So each week, you'll find a little something new.

Scott Mcmahon 2:48
Well, you can just peel let's go. So what we did was last we left off you were mentioning, you went to UCLA, for screenwriting. Yeah. So and then you had a college, you know, friend, who's working in agency saw you somewhere in the street or something like that. And you bumped into I don't know where the coffee shop. But anyhow, they got your script, because there was a whole breed of new young agents that were looking for some cool stuff. And they really latched on to a slaughter alley. Right? Vice. Correct. And from that, but we got sidetracked a little bit, because you said you were doing a lot of work with the the the exploding punk scene in the late 70s, early 80s. On the west coast, Southern California style. So which is huge leaps. Yeah, so and you know, we're talking about, we were going on about Standridge way and Black Flag, we will talk about Minuteman and the label that you created. So we kind of touched upon that, but I think it's still an interesting story. We can continue there. We were working our way on towards how you got dudes made or how it got picked up like your first scream, right? Like kind of stuff.

Randall Jahnson 3:55
Let's see, gosh, well, backing up a bit. Yeah, I ran into my friend, Howard, Howard Sanders, who I'd gone to film school with, and how he had become an agent to or was aspiring to be an agent at the William Morris Agency. And so when I ran into him, he was literally working in the mailroom at William Morris at the time. And he said, You know what happened to slaughter alley?

Scott Mcmahon 4:20
Oh, yeah, yeah. How bitten that give me perspective. Like how big was William Morris? At that time?

Randall Jahnson 4:25
Oh, Morris was huge. It was one of the established you know, agencies that have been in show business forever. It was so old as a matter of fact that I was there was a lot of talk about William Morris at that time that like, how interested were they really in the entertainment business? Because apparently most of their financial holdings weren't real estate. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was kind of an interesting thing. But at that time, William Morris ICM, CA were kind of like the big three UTA hadn't really emerged yet.

Scott Mcmahon 5:04
What was it? Where was endeavour at that point?

Randall Jahnson 5:06
They were they were there. I actually no, I take that back I think endeavor started with after a bunch of guys that I had met at Morris and then later ICM split, jumped ship and started an endeavor. Okay. Okay. Okay. And then endeavor became endeavor and ultimately came back and merged with Morris. Right. Okay. I mean, it just goes to show you what goes around comes around, you know that the sharks eventually devour one another.

Scott Mcmahon 5:39
They are they are it's an amazing machine and how much they survive and how they they find their paws and different things. Like it's taking them a while to get involved with the interactive industry as well. So slowly, yeah,

Randall Jahnson 5:52
Yeah, they're a little slow in the pickup. But I mean, UTA is really, I think hot on them interactive in the media, you know, new media, whatever you want to call it. Right now, I think but, yeah, I mean, you know, again, a game world, you know, on this whole internet thing. That that was just, that's like, you know, it was it was dull. It wasn't interesting to the established industry at that time. Right. And, of course, now, you know, everything is migrating into that. And so, that stuff is moving front and center a lot more, where it certainly has a lot more respect than it used to, right. You know, I would have meetings after I wrote gun. Again, I'm jumping ahead here. But after I wrote gun or was writing gun was still you know, I would go around and have meetings with a production company, or, you know, a studio or something. And this is what you've been doing lately. And I said, Well, I've been writing this game, this video game. Oh, no, I guess that's kind of an Yeah. People are doing that. Right. Yeah, it was just, it was it was it was something that didn't have any respect. Yeah. No. business and how you know, hello. It's got, you know, it's I mean, it's devouring the business in one sense.

Scott Mcmahon 7:16
Oh, yeah. It's a total. So sure. It's very different. Yeah. Please drink eat. Like it always pauses. It's ok.

Randall Jahnson 7:24
By the way that for those who might be listening, having a very delicious pumpkin flavored pumpkin chocolate flavored

Scott Mcmahon 7:32
Stout.

Randall Jahnson 7:33
Is that sort of stout, or was it? A? Yeah, it's a little it's a little lighter. For them stout. It's the that's all right. We'll, we'll figure it out.

Scott Mcmahon 7:44
When they come down. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. I'm gonna get one out for my style, and it's quite good.

Randall Jahnson 7:50
You know, Happy Halloween everyone.

Scott Mcmahon 7:52
Seriously, today. Today was sort of the first day that got kind of cold.

Randall Jahnson 7:57
Yeah, yeah. I went out. I went out running. Yeah, it was 36 this morning when I got up. I noticed second a while ago. Yeah, up and I went out running today. And it was like a little chilly.

Scott Mcmahon 8:08
Here comes winter.

Randall Jahnson 8:10
Yeah, sounds great. The skies are just in wasn't a cloud in the sky. Now. We've been laser on the changing and on the ground. And it's just it's beautiful, man.

Scott Mcmahon 8:18
It's been Yeah, real nice. And I love it.

Randall Jahnson 8:21
I love it. Cool. I know Mr. Surfer.

Scott Mcmahon 8:28
I actually had a great weekend surfing. No. Did you so I had no complaints there. So it's all good. Oh, so anyway, going back? Yeah, we got your friends.

Randall Jahnson 8:38
Yeah. So So I ran into Howie Sanders. And he was like, literally on the street in Beverly Hills somewhere. And he just said, Dude, what what happened was slaughter alley. And I said, well, the whole project fell through. I had to go back to the mailroom my male realm of at the Academy of Motion Pictures. And I was working there and I said, nothing's happening with the script. He said, well give it to me, because he said, I'm in the mailroom now at Morris and I can get it to some young agents there who are really hungry, and it makes me look good as well. So he said, believe me, he said, given the stuff that I'm reading there in the mailroom, which is what every aspiring agent has to do, he said there's a lot of people far less talented than you that are making a lot of money. So he said, I think you could you could get represented here. So I did, I gave it to him. And sure enough, a couple days later, I got a call from you know, the young agent over there and I invited me over to to basically meet and I signed with him. I met with actually a pair of agents there, Carol young cos and a guy named Rick Jaffa.

Alex Ferrari 9:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 10:05
Rick Jaffa is now a writer himself. And he and his wife Amanda silver, they wrote a wonderful movie called The Hand That Rocks the Cradle. Most recently, they wrote the remake of the planet planet of the apes. Oh, wow. Or Rise of the Planet. Okay, yes. The big hit this last summer. But Rick was my agent initially,

Scott Mcmahon 10:29
Don't you consider like, a pocket client,

Randall Jahnson 10:32
I was considered a pocket client by a guy named Shelly Weil, who has since passed away. But at his very established agency, he wouldn't take me on as a regular client, but I was a pocket client based on slot rally. But he wouldn't take me on as he said, because on the on the merits of what he termed is an exploitation. Okay, movie. Okay. So that was a very different I mean, Shelley was very, very old school. So when I gave it to Howard Howard was like, this is an exploitation. This is just a great script. Let's go, let's go. And you know, and then he got it to Rick and Carolyn Morris. And they were, they were just starting out. And they remember Rick telling me, he read it. And he just after he finished the last page, he threw it in the air and just was like, it felt like, Yes, I can sell this, or I can write, you know, this is a, this is a really great writer. It's just one of those moments where that goes, right. It's a template, you know, it's seared into your, your memory. More, it's just like, Wow, great. I'm so happy. Somebody loves it that much. And so they signed me. And then they started sending me out on meetings right away, slaughter ally, was still under options. So they couldn't go out and sell it. But they wanted to sell me it was a great calling card that they could use to sell me as a talent.

Scott Mcmahon 11:53
So whether you're able to, like sell it as, hey, we got his projects in in option or something like that. So you gotta meet with him. He's hot. Right? Okay.

Randall Jahnson 12:01
Correct. Correct. And so Subsequently, I went out on a lot of different meetings with companies. I remember meeting with Johnny Carson's company, he had a development person at that time.

Scott Mcmahon 12:14
It was strange. Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 12:18
You know, it was it was just kind of interesting. You go out in there, basically meet and greets, hey, how you doing? I read your script really? Like it's cool. What else you got? That kind of thing? What did you have at the time? Well, it was interesting. I would didn't really have I had some vague notions. And I went into a meeting at a company called the VISTA Vista films, or Vista organization. And I after this was after a string of meetings with what you might call pod people. Okay, little there, the obligatory meeting where they're, they're just like, hey, like what we have here?

Good.

Scott Mcmahon 12:59
We can put on pause real quick.

Randall Jahnson 13:00
Sure. We're back live.

Scott Mcmahon 13:02
Cool. We just got back. Just finish up our dinner delicious. Again. You know, we're at Mars, like Oswego Mars Irish club. Anyway, we were talking

Randall Jahnson 13:13
Yeah. And by the way, that it's a porter, my pumpkin chocolate concoction. Not a stout, it's important. It's a lighter, a little bit lighter. So quite, quite delicious. Cool.

Scott Mcmahon 13:26
I gotta get one after this beer.

Randall Jahnson 13:28
Meal in itself.

Scott Mcmahon 13:33
So the question was, we were talking about, now you got your you're in with agency, and you're going on meetings, you know, and let's talk about that. Because that's one of the things that was exciting to see for a writer or who they do it for actors to like the actors, if you sometimes once you to meet with like the director of one hour program, ring programming for Fox or whatever, you're not necessarily auditioning, they just sort of want to meet you, depending on the agency. And same thing with writers and not sure how it works for directors and stuff. But same maybe same thing,

Randall Jahnson 14:09
You know, I mean, it's a lot easier now for directors because they can they can have a real either on a desk or they have a website and somebody can go right or stuck right away. You know, back in those days, I mean, our director would have to leave a reel and have like a big fat

Scott Mcmahon 14:25
and actual film reel. Yeah, or

Randall Jahnson 14:27
videotape or right. Yeah, big fat, three quarter inch videotape or something. Like ridiculous.

Scott Mcmahon 14:32
So when you went, what was your emotional? How are your emotions? That's one thing I never get like an in interviews is because a lot of interviews, the interviewers just sort of skip over like, oh, yeah, so I got this agent, agencies behind me now they start sending out of meetings, but never stop and say, Okay, can you recall sort of the emotions you had? Were like, I'm doing my first meeting and they tell you, I'm sure they get like a call or they tell you. Alright, you gotta be here at three o'clock. If you're going to meet with so and so at this production company, they want to meet with you and talk to you about this story or whatever. So what goes on on somebody's emotions at that point?

Randall Jahnson 15:10
Well, I used to get really excited or almost anxious about, you know, these meetings, because why do they want to meet with me? You know, I might, what should I have stuff? Ready? What? Right? What are they expecting? Do I have to pitch another story? You know, the agents would always say, no, no, no, just just chill out. They just want to meet you. They read the script, they just want to know if you have any other ideas. You know, it's just a it's just a meeting. Yeah, there's nothing, I used to attach a lot more import to the meeting, than was really there. And I used to get, at least initially very anxious about it. I remember just in particular, that like the meeting of at Johnny Carson's company, Terry, Terry something or other rent was in his head of development. I used to I ended up playing basketball with him at a later really later date. Yeah. But he was cool. And I, but I was very nervous about it at first, because this is like one of my first professional meetings and like, what am I say, What do I wear? What do I do, right? That whole thing, but you start doing enough of these and it's and you get a little more relaxed and just be your learn to be yourself. Right? And, you know, it's it's not, it's always a little bit of a dog and pony show to a degree. But it's, it's not. It you shouldn't suffer from performance anxiety for something like that. They generally, if these people have been doing their job for a while they know that writers aren't necessarily the most

Scott Mcmahon 16:54
polished presenters.

Randall Jahnson 16:57
I think they're not. Yeah, the most gregarious individuals now, you know,

Scott Mcmahon 17:03
Ron Howard's partner, Brian Grazer? Yeah, I saw him in an interview on iconic class on IFC, I think it was or, and that show is basically kind of combining two icons or moguls for different industries. And the they follow them around. And then it's like an hour show, but it was following him. So it was Brian Grazer, and his friendship with redstone at Viacom. Well, you know, yeah. So is there some summer Yes, on there. So, but then we're interviewing grazer. And he was saying that, about writers like he says, he wants he, he has his, the way they dress he goes if they're not, like disheveled, and like, look, like just like right off the street. And they he goes, he wants his writers to be the ones that are, like, socially awkward, that aren't dressed to the tee that are in like, like, they look like that's all they do is right. And that's sort of maybe it's a tongue in cheek sort of perspective. But he was like, he's he said he was suspicious of a writer that was dressed better than he was, you know,

Randall Jahnson 18:07
well, then. You know, then then he just lost out on a meeting with like Aaron Sorkin you know, or somebody. Right, right. Or, you know, come on, if you take a look historically, photographs of writers from let's say, the really, from the 50s 40s 50s, early 60s. You know, the Writers Guild has plenty of them on file. And in the in the guild home headquarters there. You'll see a lot of pipes. But by and large, they're a debonair crowd, right. I mean, Dashiell Hammett, who's one of the founders of the Writers Guild really named me the very debonair gentleman, you know, I mean, dapper these guys, these guys knew how to dress. It's sort of a sad state of affairs, I think what it's come to now, because we are really sort of a T Shirt Nation, but that I think that's more indicative of the population in general than anything. But for a long time, you know, the, the sort of the uniform was a trashy t shirt, and a really worn baseball cap of some sort with some obscure product label on it. You know, and, of course, jeans and, and a pair of, you know, some kind of a, you know, a tennis shoe of some sneakers, you know, of high tops or something like that, you know, or, you know, Frank Darabont was was fond of particular high tops, I think at one point in classics, you know, so it's kind of come to that and in a sense, I understand what grazer is saying, but you know, you can't make a blanket statement. It was just interesting to hear he's, you know, he's a surfer.

Alex Ferrari 19:59
We'll be right back. After a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 20:08
I know it's like a bump in the head. Like you're like, oh, so

Randall Jahnson 20:13
yeah, yeah. You know, but, but there is a certain, you know, it's it's a certain look, it's a certain vibe. And you'll get sometimes, you know, and they're usually clutching a lot of coffee, a coffee mug of some sort, you know, add to that. So they're in line at the espresso bar there. You know, we're in the, you know, you see him in Starbucks everywhere, any kind of coffee house? They're

Scott Mcmahon 20:40
like, it's a given like any coffee shop. You see in Los Angeles, there's a laptop with

Randall Jahnson 20:46
Sure. Screenwriting? Sure, I mean, it used to be in the old days, it used to be nope, notepad, okay, I mean, and I was one of them, I would go out, because, you know, writing is a lonely business part of the right for most of the time, and writers rarely got out, especially if you are under pressure to get a script done, or on a deadline of some sort. You just didn't get out. So the only way to get out really was to double up on function in business and what was like, get to his coffee shop, get some coffee, and you get some work done. And then you might vicariously experience real life process to get out of that, that those four those four enclosing walls, I don't know if it's, you know, yeah, I

Scott Mcmahon 21:33
don't know, if I've, I've done it a few times, just because at a shear, I had to I was like, I had time to kill, I was like, I gotta get some work done. And I noticed that I kind of shut myself off a little bit when there's a lot of noise, because I don't know anybody. It's okay, just put the earplugs in, and you know, your business. But when you take your moment, they take a breath or step away from whatever you're working on writing, it gives me a chance to sort of observe, you know, human nature and you and you never know what triggers that inspiration, like, you just see this, this, somebody ordering, you know, a latte, but the way they order it is bizarre that you're like, oh, that's might be interesting. But I actually found most of my success writing from for me, is I go to the public libraries, you know, it's just they have the Wi Fi but, but I tried to cut off the Wi Fi because it's easy to get distracted. But for some reason for me, the libraries was always a nice little getaway to get outside the homes to homart essence the libraries

Randall Jahnson 22:30
are great. I never, I never ventured to them to actually work, I would always go I would be there to research, right. And I would always be on a sort of a on a mission, you know. And again, these are days before the internet, I remember if I was on, you know, a couple of projects, I became a lifetime member of the UCLA Alumni Association for the sole purpose that I would always have library privileges. Well, that makes sense. And so yeah, I haven't used it now in a number of years. But the point was, is that I used to, and again, the days before the internet, if I was researching something in an historical period or something, I would go to the Graduate Research Library and just disappear. I mean, it would lead I would cross reference and go down this path and that path and that aisle and go to special collections and everything. And I loved it. I mean, it was fantastic. It was a really a was actually a physical investigation, right, you actually had to travel, you had to get in the elevator after you get to the card catalog and go upstairs or this or that or you know, find different things. And it was it was always a little bit of an adventure. And then there would be interesting things you would encounter along the way on the shelves and down the aisles and all that stuff. So I always, always really enjoyed that. Now, you know, I mean, it's all at your fingertips. It's crazy. So you don't do that anymore. But I never worked in a library. I always liked the vibe of it, but I never worked in and I preferred to go where I could observe people coming and going a lot. There's a place in in in LA, called the apple pan. It's it's down on Pico Boulevard, just just east of Westwood Boulevard and block. And it's a little horseshoe counter and an old bungalow that's been there since 1947. And it's family owned, and they have refused to sell out. And so it's completely surrounded now by tall modern. And here's this little 40 style bungalow on the corner. And it's still run exactly the same way. It was way back when in the menu who really hasn't changed the prices have gone up but basically they're making the same kind of stuff on the menu with a hickory burger, a hamburger cheeseburger, tuna fish sandwich ham sandwich. It's been on the on the menu since 1947. But I used to go there because I, I live not too far from it and it stayed open relatively late, it would stay open till midnight on on weeknights, and then one o'clock in the morning on the weekends and I used to take a corner seat and go in there with a note book, order a lot of coffee and I would go in about an hour before closing and get something to eat and drink a lot of coffee, make a lot of notes and then go home and work through the night. But I used to see tons of people coming through there and a lot of celebrities. I mean, everyone from you know, Warren Beatty was with a beautiful woman there. Gene Siskel, I met Gene Siskel, actually, right after the doors came out. Oh, really? Yeah. And he and Roger Ebert had interviewed or reviewed it on the show, and I happen to look up and I think, Oh, my God, they're seen Cisco. How weird is that? So I went over to him and introduced myself. I said, I wrote the doors. I said, Oh, my gosh,

Scott Mcmahon 26:05
well, he's a big music fan, or like, pop icon fan anyway,

Randall Jahnson 26:08
I didn't. I wasn't aware of that. But anyway, he was like, Oh, wow, that's really cool. So you know, so we, but we ended up talking less about the doors and more about the Apple pan, because he always whenever he was in town, and so it was like, What's your favorite thing on the menu? You know, there. Yeah. And I sort of said, well, I liked the hickory burger, and he liked the tuna fish sandwich. You know, it's a tough call on that on that. But it was fun. You know, I mean, some of the Lakers used to be in there, I would say a lot. A lot of movie stars kind of come in. And it would be you know, it's sort of incognito, and very, very low key. But it was fun. It was fun to see. And then just lots of very interesting where people and then of course, the guys that have worked in their old row. They've been there for and for ever, in a couple of the waiters, you know, I mean, just holy cow, you know? So there were lots of stories even about those guys, even

Scott Mcmahon 27:02
now that we're now that you're appear and then are in Portland, do you find yourself going out and observing sort of human behavior appear anything or?

Randall Jahnson 27:13
Well, it's really tempting to and I really should, when I do get the chance, but I don't step out like I used to, to go and work. And that's basically because I got a family now and I want to be at home with him that night. I don't write excuse me, right through the night, like I used to, I used to work after getting all jacked up on Capitol coffee. You know, I would work until I would hear the paper delivered, you know, on my doorstep at about the driveway about, you know, five, six in the morning or so. And then I'd hit the hay and sleep until noon or whatever, you know, get up and kind of start the day, procrastinate, day away until 10 o'clock at night and start writing again. But so I don't get out like I did. And, but when I do go out and I you know, go to the you know, find drinking establishments and like this, and whatever it's like, yeah, brings back a lot of memories in terms of wanting to do that. And if you go to any, you know, coffee house now and at least in Portland, geez, you walk in and everybody's on then hovering over their screen. You know, you never see anyone with a notebook anymore making no right or all hovering over their screens, you know? Yeah. And it's so it's very difficult to tell like, Who's, who's real and who's not I used to do that. I used to go in and see a lot of people making notes or writing or something about like, you know, is he really Is he real? Is he someone? Is he not? Right? Is she really good? A good writer or not? You know, she's cute, but Was she an actress is she knew that kind of thing.

Scott Mcmahon 28:57
There's friends that these girls would tell me in in, in LA, it's like, they would always meet these cute guys whose waiters or whatever they are. And then sure enough, they're all actors, you know? And they're like, and like, as I got older, and they got more professional are like, Oh, geez, you know? Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 29:16
Well, it's funny getting back to these, you know, these rounds of meetings that I was that my new agents were sending me on, you know, as a writer. Well, once I started getting paid as a writer, you just didn't get out that often. You know, I mean, it was you were you were working. And I took it very seriously. So I was, you know, always working in angsting away over my stuff. So to actually go out on a meeting was, was like, hey, wow, I'm actually going out and mixing with society. Yeah. And invariably, you know, you'd go to these production companies or studios and meet with an executive there and they would always have a beautiful young The woman working the front desk. Right,

Scott Mcmahon 30:03
right, right.

Alex Ferrari 30:05
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 30:15
They all did. So yeah, and because that that was also it's never stated, but it's implied if you have a hot chick, you know, as you're working as your assistant or, you know, receptionist, then you are you too are a sexy individual, you know, your cache, your, your relativity into importance in the business is, you know, your stock goes up, right, so, but invariably, I would always meet these wonderful, and a lot of them are just really, really great. And I would end up like, you know, these were the only women I would meet, so I would be unabashed about like asking them out. I made a fool out of myself a number of times. Interesting. But my roommate at the time, used to kid me, he's like, Oh, you had a meeting today? Did you ask anybody out? As a matter fact, I did. Yes.

Scott Mcmahon 31:15
Any of us who ever coming writers are find themselves in opportunities for meetings, any words of wisdom you can give us be yourself,

Randall Jahnson 31:23
you know, now,

Scott Mcmahon 31:24
I mean, in the dating, oh,

Randall Jahnson 31:27
just be yourself. You know, I mean, it's different, it's different. Now. You don't, you know, that's not your only outlet. You know, I mean, you're on if you're on, on the on the net, you know, you're gonna find people via Facebook, the, you know, dating services, eHarmony, whatever, you know, there's so many different ways now to get hooked up without ever leaving your, your four walls, right. And that's that, to me, this was the lifeline this was the only way out, you know, you had to get out, it's actually have a meeting or go to the Apple pen and have a cup of coffee and hope you sit, a beautiful girl sits next to you. But that rarely, rarely happens.

Scott Mcmahon 32:10
Well, it's funny, I think my actor friends would tell me it was very difficult. They say it's difficult to date in LA, because it's sort of implied or understood that everyone's here for themselves and their career and then self absorbed, going so to find time to, to, you know, to share with somebody else is very, very difficult. And why it's difficult to date there. So, that made sense to me for maybe the acting circles, I don't know, but Well, everybody's

Randall Jahnson 32:38
here. But you know, I think I think it applies across the boards, you know, everybody's there to become famous, you know, let's face it, they're looking to, to, to climb up. And so you're, you're thrown in into this into this sort of, you know, whatever you want to call it a pool of people who are social climbers. They can be shallow, they can be sincere, they can be artists, they truly want to make art, but they don't know how to do it. I mean, there's everything's all kind of thrown together. So it's really hard to read people at first they come across very sincere. But you know, sometimes they're not, you know, in writing, these are just some of the hard lessons of human behavior, you just sort of go through in your 20s when you're when you're trying to make it that just like, Oh, God, can I get your heart broken a couple of times and like, oh, have really lousy experiences. Yeah. But it all becomes great. Yeah. You know, goes into the, the, into the hard drive of your head for fodder for later scripts. And stuff. So you become a student of human behavior, if you will, however. Yeah. I had known what the Northwest holds. You know, for one aspiring writer. Back then, I would have come up here a long time ago. Oh, interesting. I think yeah, yeah. And, I mean, of course, I'm married now. But I've found that the girls out here, you know, just in chatting and stuff. There's so much more friendly and open and sincere than they were in LA. Right. And I think it's just because you know, Portland doesn't have the stigma of Thai people coming there to be famous. Nobody comes to Portland to be famous. I don't I don't think unless maybe you're a musician or something and you want to become one of the Decemberists or something you know but you know it's it's you go to New York or you go to your you go to LA and that's where the real big business centers are. However, that is all changing, but it's very

Scott Mcmahon 34:49
right. But yeah, the ones that need it that certainly that yeah, just constant approval, or so to make it I

Randall Jahnson 34:56
mean, look, I mean, they're always there are insecure, insecure people everywhere. There's always you know, everything is sort of relative that we're talking about a certain archetype in a way but, but by and large, I just found people, actually in the Northwest all in all been very much more open and sincere. And yeah, I agree. I think they're great. Great to hang with.

Scott Mcmahon 35:17
Yeah, there's a definite sense of independent spirit or just pure heart. Or, you know, and their perspective is, ya know, yeah, art for art's sake are just weird for weird. It is, and you're like, Okay, I go with this.

Randall Jahnson 35:33
Oh, gosh. Yeah, I mean, back in those days again. And also, when I was simultaneous with all this, I was in heavily into the music scene, though. So I did have more of an outlet because I was going out a lot late at night to see punk bands play and go to these really shitty little clubs. Inside, you know, I mean, a place called the VAX, I remember. The, the while there was the odd club and Silver Lake, there was Al's bar downtown. I mean, these were, this was downtown. This was way downtown. I mean, this was no man's land, right? And 8182 or whatever. And it was unbelievable. And it was nothing. And it's all changed. Now. You know, I mean, the people that were living there, but but I would invariably see these very interesting art damage women with Moon tans. And I have a really heavy duty Goth look, or sometimes they would be tattooed. It was almost pre tattooed kind of thing. But you know, Ruby, red lipstick and pale white skin, and then just like, you know, have this really bored art vibe about them that I just I I'd love for the long, line and sinker. And that's commonplace up here now. Yeah, except that they're not, as John just in are much more open and friendly. Here. A little more tattooed and pure Steven now than they weren't? Sure. Anyway. Yeah, I digress. Yeah. To observe.

Scott Mcmahon 37:10
I want to I want to, I want to divert to that later, when we get back to. So you're going on these meetings? What was the SIR, the first break that says, We want to hire you? Or, you know, we're doing this with slaughter alley, or, you know, what, what was the first after all these meetings were like, Oh, my God is actually turning into something?

Randall Jahnson 37:31
Well, it's, it's a good question, because it is Oregon related, actually, and I'll tell you about it. Tell you what the connection is. I went to a meeting call at a company called the VISTA organization. And they were, they were independent. They had a bunch of Canadian money, I think is what it was. So they didn't have any ties with the studio or whatever. And there was this guy, Miguel, Tata Flores, was the head of development there. And he wanted to meet me. So I show up. And this is after I've had a number of meetings with pod people, you know, who again, very friendly Oh, yeah, I really like your stuff. But it goes nowhere. Right. Right. Right. You know, and you just and you kind of exit these meetings and go, What was that about? Well, you know, did he really liked my stuff? Or is he just saying so or what? You know, what, what is this? Yeah. So I finally go in. And invariably, these meetings were, you know, in clean offices and really, you know, tasteful, tastefully decorated furniture was surrounded you I had a meeting with a young, aspiring, well, a young producer, he was the son of a studio head of certain studio, and I met at his bungalow. On the west side, it was at Fox actually. And I remember in our meeting there, he had a glass coffee table. Okay, that was had and we were there were these two couches that were perpendicular to each other around this on the corner of this glass coffee table. And on the table was this bowl of peanuts. And so as we were having our sit down and starting to chat, he reached in and like started, grabbed a bunch of peanuts and started cracking the shell peanuts. Yeah, shell peanuts. Yeah. Like they were, you know, like, he was at a ballgame. And just letting the shells just drop on the thick shag carpet beneath I'm not making any effort whatsoever to clean it up or or or not make a mess. He was deliberately just dropping it there. And eating these peanuts as we were talking and I thought that was the strangest thing.

Alex Ferrari 39:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 39:58
Um, and I've often thought about that it was an image that I will never forget because it made me think is, is he trying to show me how powerful he is by the fact that he's going to shit? Yeah, he's just gonna let the let the help grab it and pick it up afterwards or was he just clueless, you know, is that the way he was raised? You know? It's very, very odd. So I had all these weird meetings. So then I come to the VISTA organization come to meet Miguel Torres. And I walk into this office, and it's just chaos. It's just packed with scripts and books, and there was shitting. There's toys all over the desk. And, and I remember seeing my first view of him he, he was working. He was at his computer, which was at that time was a big box boxy computer called a K Pro, which was made in San Diego. Yeah, okay. And were manufactured in San Diego, because at this Kaypro computer, and he looked up over the top of it, big, black rimmed glasses and said, Randy Johnson, yes. And he said, Oh, Miguel, tada Flores, you know, I read slaughter rally a fucking love it, what else you got? And we just sit down. And I just felt like, oh my gosh, you know, here's a nut. But he's a sincere nut. And he's all about making movies and telling stories and weird stuff. And it was just fun. We just collect immediately. So he said, What else you got? And I just sort of threw out punk rockers in the middle of Wyoming. And he says, I love it. Come back when you have a story. And I did. And I came back a couple weeks later with a little more story. And he said, I like that keep coming back. Do

Scott Mcmahon 41:49
you have an outline or a treatment or anything? It just

Randall Jahnson 41:51
was, I it was it was just the germ of a notion that ultimately became dudes. But what it was was that I had been going to so many punk rock shows and it struck me as being a very tribal. Oh my god your hair. You know, Randa, nice to meet you. Yeah. You just want to visit guys.

Scott Mcmahon 42:22
What are you doing? Adam with my buddy All right. All right. We're back. Sorry. We got a little. I had no idea Frederick was here. I thought he left already. But it sounds like there's gonna be a big party here Saturday night for him. So he came down to say hi, and introduce me his friend. So there you go. He's going

Randall Jahnson 42:44
to do that. And every subsequent interview, I think we should just he's just going to show up. It's like the court jester. Cards.

Scott Mcmahon 42:53
But you know, he's personally so big and joyous. That's why when he gets here, like everybody knows him. He's like your norm.

Randall Jahnson 43:00
Yeah, totally. I get it.

Scott Mcmahon 43:02
So we're past where we are. Well, I

Randall Jahnson 43:05
was said back. Meanwhile, back at the guy at Vista. Yes, yeah. Miguel Flores. Yeah, what do you got for me? And how did you come up with that? Anyway,

Scott Mcmahon 43:14
we're just at the punk shows we're just something Well, yeah, that's what

Randall Jahnson 43:16
I was saying is that I've been going to all these punk shows you know, in the whole thing It struck me so the Hardcore scene in California at that time and was was very was very tribal. You know, you had your social distortion tribe, you had your your black flag tribe, you had the Dead Kennedys and and in each each sort of faction, each tribe had their there were subtle differences in their in how they looked. Right. You know, the Orange County punks were a little different from the Hollywood punks, the valley of La Valley punks were different from some of those guys, you know, you had a lot of different skinheads or spike heads, and, you know, that whole thing, but it was just a it was a very interesting thing. And then plus you had the bands were almost embracing the kind of a Western kind of quality and especially Standridge when you're well Well, sure. You know, Stan, I mean, when he was he was still with wall of voodoo at the time, and swallow voodoo. Although they were not punk, they were on the edge of that kind of art damaged New Wave experimental sound stuff. And they had a medley of spaghetti western stuff they used I remember seeing them the first time you know, not only did they cover Johnny Cash, his ring of fire, which was their signatures, showpiece. They really deconstructed that, you know, and they had a big booming Mark Moreland, who was their guitarist had just this great 20 guitar sound that evoked the the old old school Will instrumentalists you know, the guys have backed up Johnny Cash and those kinds of guys back then. It was just a Western sound to it, you know, but they incorporated in their show they had a medley of, of spaghetti western songs. So they they remember seeing them first time, and they play to hang them high. And the good, the bad and the ugly and some other thing too. And it was like, wow, this is frickin wild. I love this. It was just it was really great. So they were the Dead Kennedys had covered like Rawhide right from the TV show and the Vandals came out of Long Beach they had a thing called Urban struggle, which was all about the the punkers at the Cuckoo's Nest and in Orange County having like a big battle with punkers from you know, another plant. Yeah, it was all done like a cowboy. Kind of twang.

Scott Mcmahon 45:52
I do. Yeah, I do recall those oh sound quite a bit. Yeah. Because it was it was that the guitar itself that uses sort of big, semi hollow hollow body guitars, the big Right, right, Gretz guitar, you know, the 50 style guitar, then sort of like has that artwork to sort of like you said it was that rock and roll, Hot Rod subculture that kind of bled over where it's Yeah, big Twain, the source of the sound

Randall Jahnson 46:19
you know, I mean, that simultaneous with all this was like the blasters and this whole rockabilly revival right, you know, thing up the alley cats were not the alley cats, the stray cats were the very commercial, sort of tip of that, of that sort of phenomenon. But that was a that was happening all at the same time. And there was some overlap with the punk stuff or the blasters, especially But, and this is, there was a band called The plugs that were really great came out of East LA. And in Los Lobos then and all those all those the NX then in this embraced all those things with the hardcore, and then, you know, X, they're all They're all crackers, you know, they're they're all hillbillies, you know, they love they love all that country 20 stuff from way back when Yeah, social distortion evolved into the absolutely Mike Ness, a huge country fan, because they recognize that, that you know, that those guys, they were the they were the outlaws of their day. And a lot of them as in the context of the time, you know, when they were recording for Sun Records, or whatever they were, they were, they were breaking new ground, right. This was it wasn't like the the, necessarily the the mainstream music. This was, like a whole new sound, you know. So anyway, going back to all of this, I just had seen like this sort of, kind of knew western landscape in the punk scene, and, and so, but at the same time, I mean, Punk was primarily an urban or suburban, you know, phenomenon. So I thought, Well, gee, how funny would it be to take some of these hardcore punkers? You know, we're like, all all full of aggression and piss and vinegar, and throw them out into the realities of the West. Drop them right in the middle of Wyoming or Montana or something like that, and see what would happen. And so that was the germ of the idea. And then I kept coming back and urged on by Miguel kept coming back every couple of weeks or so with a little bit more of a story a little bit more of a story. So you're writing

Scott Mcmahon 48:27
on spec at this time, and completely, he's nothing, no agreement, nothing. He just said he expressed interest. He just

Randall Jahnson 48:33
He said, I like that. And he knew he couldn't option slot rally at the time, because it was under Options. It was somewhere else. He liked my writing a lot. And he liked this idea. And this sort of he thought I was on to something. So he just kept urging me on. And so finally, there was another guy there a guy named Hank Palmieri, who has subsequently passed away a surfer, great surfer group, a Malibu, really bright guy, really brilliant guy and such a good, one of the best people I've ever met in the business. And he was Miguel's partner at the time, too. And so between the two of them, I just thought these guys are fantastic. I totally want to be in business with them. And it they kept urging me back and finally there, there was a writer strike looming. This is 1985 and there was a writer strike looming. And so there was a certain amount of there was a ticking clock and we had to get this get something done, you know, before the strike kicked in. Because God knows who how long the strike was going to last. So finally, what they were you in a guild at the time? No, I wasn't. But that was the thing in order if they made a deal, I was going to have to get into the guild and Okay, well, thanks. So both basically what happened was, I went in there one day and Miguel says, Okay, you got we got enough. Let's make this let's make a deal. Let's make this happen. And so they, they made the deal. It was a rush rush thing, and basically I got some money, and they just said we can't communicate with you now.

Alex Ferrari 50:02
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 50:11
You know, because because as soon as the strike is going to kick in, but we want you to go ahead and start writing the script, so maybe after week week after the strike is over with, we'll have a script. Right. Got it. So the strike, the strike was actually settled in a couple of weeks. It didn't last long at all, comparative to subsequent strikes. And so, in the meantime, though, I went out on an adventure of myself out into the contemporary West, because I hadn't been out there since I was a kid. So I went out to Arizona, Utah, Nevada, you know, did this kind of long sweeping tour, you know, and just wandering around I went to, I was really into ghost town, so I wanted to visit ghost towns and, and it was out when I remember this very clearly, I was driving on a on a highway heading west towards Ely, Nevada. And suddenly I got the whole very clear picture of what the movie was all about. But it involved jettison a lot of the story I had already worked out. Yeah, but I just like I knew how to do it. I suddenly saw it, I knew how to do it. And so I got on and got in a phone booth somewhere. And I called them and I remember getting Hank on the phone. And I said, Hank, I got it. I got it. I got the story of finally, you know, and I know what it is. And I explained it to him. And he said, Well, yeah, it sounds kind of good. But what about the other stuff? And I said, No, no, forget the other stuff. Forget it, forget it. This is it. I know how to do it. And he was really kind of nervous about it. But he said, Okay, he gave me this approval to go ahead and do it. And so ultimately, I came back from this trip and it was really eye opening for me as well. It was really great. I went to all these different places that it was just evocative in so many ways that I came back, I wrote the first draft, and they loved it. And they had they started sending it around and we got a director attached pretty early on and you know it Penelope Spheeris, had read it and she was coming off of what she had done. Her claim to fame, of course, was the decline of Western civilization. Right. But she had only done the first one at that point. And she had done another several other sort of low budget exploitation films, one for like Roger Corman, and stuff, you know, and so, but she was kind of like the punk rock queen, right? And I remember Miguel telling me, he said, Well, Penelope came in and she impressed the shit out of us, and we're gonna hire her to direct this movie. And she said, he said, she came into the meeting, and said, basically, there are two people that can direct this movie. Me and Alex Cox, who did repo man. Okay, which was the kind of like the other. Yeah, you know, and Alex had been a teacher's aide at UCLA Film school when I was there. I knew we had a couple of people friends in common a little bit, you know, and so I knew knew him a bit, or knew of him, certainly. And anyway, so that was that was out, they started they, they things started rolling very, very quickly from that point on, and then once dudes was in production that led to the doors and other things. Okay, let's,

Scott Mcmahon 53:29
let's roll back here. So, you are what kind of what was the, your agent's perspective of you? When they you told them like, hey, these guys are interested in me developing the story. Do you mean what what is their reaction? Like okay, kaki. Keep going,

Randall Jahnson 53:48
Yeah, sure, of course, you

Scott Mcmahon 53:49
know, they don't want to knowing that you're not on like, any sort of contract, you're just on spec.

Randall Jahnson 53:53
It's not at this. At this point. Yeah. They were just saying, okay, you know, go for it, let them let you know, if they're interested, keep them, keep them on the line, get the story done, you know, get a story out there that you that they're gonna, that they're gonna like, they weren't real mettlesome at that point, they were just sort of taking a back seat. The one agent that I had Carol, I didn't necessarily trust her in terms of, of feedback. Is this a good idea? Or is this a bad idea? You know, so I wouldn't test the waters with her. Rick was a different story. Rick had a better story since I felt they both can sell very well. Okay. So I didn't consult Carol in the sense of like, currently think this is a good idea. Should I do it? Or I mean, should I develop the story? It wasn't like that at all. I was just I knew this was the story that I wanted to tell. And she was going to make the deal for me when this when the time was right. So there's a difference there. You know, a lot of people go to their agents and look at them all. Just as if they are a studio executive or the head of a production company and, and, and think that they might have some artistic taste, I think that's dangerous, that's dangerous to a degree to trust your agent as being someone who really has a taste. Gotcha, their their deal is to sell, you know, making a sale, that's what they're about. And that doesn't necessarily mean they have taste, it means they can take a product, once they see it, once it's done, and they can sell it. But it doesn't necessarily they, that doesn't mean that they can necessarily see it as it is forming, you know, now there are others who can, and have that ability and have that sense of like, that's a very good idea. Go for it. I like where I like how you're thinking, you know, but that's not always the case. So what just let that be a warning sometimes, too. Yeah, you know,

Scott Mcmahon 56:07
if you're Yeah, if you got yourself representation, for sure. Now or what? You were just working so at the mailroom, I was

Randall Jahnson 56:15
I was still I was still in the mailroom. And then finally, when that when they pulled the trigger on on that

Scott Mcmahon 56:21
the first was it the first paycheck that we were, well, that first payment the were you able to take your trip, like take extended leave from the mailroom to do your

Randall Jahnson 56:30
that was it this time it was it was enough, it was substantially more money than I got on the slaughter alley option. And okay, and the stuff that I had, you know, I mean, at the time, it was like, she's I don't know, it was like $25,000 $40,000 Something like, that's pretty good. Yeah. Are you kidding? Cheese man, it was more money than I'd ever seen. So it was definitely enough for me to finally say, Okay, goodbye to the mailroom. I'm gonna go for it. And also, at that stage, I had to become a member of the Writers Guild. So that's the way because VISTA was a guild signatory. And I had to become a member. So you have to drop $1,500 initially to become a member and then get on the health and, and pension plan, and whatever. But then that's it. And then they take 1% of your, your earnings, you know, on top of that. So suddenly, I was in The Guild, and it was, it was a whole new it was a whole new world. You know, I was a professional. I was truly a professional writer at that point. And it was you

Scott Mcmahon 57:37
gotta guild meetings or something just to be Yeah, they had.

Randall Jahnson 57:44
At this time they had, they were having some what they called outreach meetings, because they knew the strike was looming. And so they were having very small gatherings in, like, certain guild members would open up their home to a couple dozen writers turn and they would come in and somebody from The Guild would come there and talk about the latest contract negotiations and what was to be expected and and inform us a bit of what was going on. My roommate, my former roommate. At this time was Gregory Wyden, who wrote Highlander. Oh, and

Scott Mcmahon 58:28
just the first one.

Randall Jahnson 58:29
Well, Greg never has to work a day in his life early because his name's on everything else subsequent to that, so you've Alexa paycheck for it. But he did other things, too. I mean, he wrote Backdraft for Ron Howard. And, and that's kind

Scott Mcmahon 58:47
of how he was dressed when he met grazer. Now it's kidding.

Randall Jahnson 58:52
But Greg got into the guild, just a bit before I did, I think, and off the Highlander deal. And so he and I were were basically sort of rookies of so we were going to a lot of these these outreach meetings together. And I remember this initial one, I was blown away, because there were maybe a dozen people at this at this one meeting. And one of them was like Paul Mazursky, who was well known writer, director, you know, at that time, former actor as well. And Julius Epstein was there and this little this little guy who's you know, about four feet tall and about 80 years old? It's one of the writers of Casablanca.

Scott Mcmahon 59:35
Archie, that's right, it sounds familiar.

Randall Jahnson 59:37
And you just go wow, that's where I was like, suddenly it's like, Oh, my God. I'm and these are, these are like names. You know that. I mean, real pros. I mean, these are this was like an amazing thing.

Alex Ferrari 59:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 59:59
Now Backing up real quick, so exciting when you got in. When you first got the offer, like II realized it was happening there, they're like, Okay, let's make this happen, we're gonna give you the initial payment, you're gonna have to get in the guild, like, I'm assuming all this stuff happened very quickly in a few weeks or a month or so

Randall Jahnson 1:00:16
no, it was like the super past. It was within a couple of a week or so.

Scott Mcmahon 1:00:21
So emotions, like did you did you get a chance to like go out with friends or anything or girlfriend and say, let's celebrate, just have like just a little toast or anything that you did that you like any type of little ceremony said, Whoa, this is cool.

Randall Jahnson 1:00:36
There was a group of us that came through the film school or the theatre arts department at UCLA at the same time. And actually, in retrospect, this that whole era, I've been told by other people from the theater side, the drama department that it is generally regarded as being an extraordinary period from the from the theater arts department, the UCLA Theater Arts Department was included film and drama. So they were sort of segregated, if you will, but two different buildings, but basically, we're all under under the roof of theater arts. Right, right. But out of that time, I mean, there was Tim Robbins, Daphne Zuniga, Alex Cox, Greg Wyden. I mean, Dan pine, Neil Jimenez. I mean, there were so many people that we're going, having huge success, like, I mean, very early on and would later go on to, you know, having extraordinary careers. Yeah. But in my particular circle, it was Greg and I had been roommates, we had a guy named Mike pencilled, who was aspiring producer, his girlfriend at the time, ended up becoming, it's hugely important in my career, because she was a development exec at Columbia when they had the doors. So I threw her was able to get in and have a meeting about that, but that's a little bit further down the line. But Greg had grown up in in Laguna Beach, and a good buddy of his Don Knowlton was also in the theater arts in the drama department. So he knew the number of people there anyway, there was a circle of you know, four or five of us that were all writers and in or producers, aspiring producers, that anytime anyone had any sort of success we would go out and celebrate and usually it was it was you know, wasn't anything like you're painting the town red right. But we would always gathers Yeah, we did. Yeah, we would gather there was a place called Cafe Figaro, which was in West Hollywood, it was on Robertson. Right. And right, we're almost dead ends to Santa's Little Santa Monica Boulevard. And it is George San, I remember this very well, because there's I met Demi, Demi Moore, in the bookstore there across the way after one time, but we would always convene at Cafe Figaro, and have drinks and dinner there. And it was like a real to serve a working. Yeah, working man's place. You know, they always had cute waitresses there. And it was just a place where, you know, lonely writers would go and score, you know, so that was that was the kind of thing that we would do. It wasn't you know, I always had a sense that, you know, this stuff was fleeting, you know, and it was never going to be, you know, you just that there was always going to be challenges further ahead, just let it go, like, wow, I've made it and it's, you know, there's no turning back, is it? No, it's not like that. Because even once you've sort of, quote unquote, arrived, there's always stuff going on, that you've you know, you get wracked with self doubt, you can write something that isn't received well, all these things that can sort of trip you up at one time or another. And it you know, Hollywood in general is a place that just one of the fuels that runs it is insecurity and fear of losing one's stature of losing one's job losing losing face, you know, and so that that informs a lot of decision making and a lot of, of, you know, artistic decisions, right? Fortunately, you know, but at that time, though, still, I was on cloud nine, man, I just frickin I couldn't believe it. I was just thrilled. And then later on, it was funny. It wasn't it wasn't that strike because it didn't last long enough. It was Strike and 88 that I started seeing, because I was a strike captain, the guild had asked me to be a guy that would have to call okay, you know, here's the phone numbers of a dozen writers so we're going to pick it 20th Century Fox tomorrow got it, you got to call all these guys and tell them to be there, what time they're going to be there and this and that. And in the 88 strike, you know, you have we have these just these massive pickets, one studio at a time, so there would be hundreds of writers out there today, you know, marching up to the end of the block and then back down, up and down and bagging them act really angry, shake your signs.

And so invariably, you know, you're there these two columns you're going in you're passing guys walking in the opposite direction, you know, when you see their faces so it you don't even see guys that I've always admired a Harlan Ellison, Richard Brooks, you know, great writers and directors and then I see Ray Bradbury. Bradbury had been a real inspiration for me ever since. Oh, God,

Scott Mcmahon 1:06:10
we talked about college, your high school wrote,

Randall Jahnson 1:06:12
this is going back to high school. Right, right. You know, where I was leaving, like I start reading Ray Bradbury short stories when I was about 12 or 13 years old. And he I did my high school, term paper, English term paper on his work. And then he came down and spoke to at a local college where I was out at MiraCosta, where I was, and I went to see him at the time. And I was like, I couldn't believe that was actually a living breathing writer, like one of my idols right there. I was sitting in the front row. And afterwards, I went up and just told him, I did my term paper on you, and I, you know, in English this year, and he said, Oh, great. Here's my card, you know, write me. I did. And I think he asked for a copy of it of the report or whatever. And so I sent it to him. And he sent back like a whole little package of of stuff that he had autographed and personally printed stuff. And I was like, Oh, my God, I couldn't believe it. So cut two years later, I come to LA, and just my very first, you know, month at at UCLA. And I went into, I knew where he lived, he wasn't too far from where we lived. It was one of the first things I wanted to see was like, Where does a real writer live? And I found his address down in, in in certain part of West LA there. But But anyway, he was signing books one time at a bookstore in Westwood. And I went in, this is like, like I said, my first month there. And I went up, and I was just, again, sort of in awe and just sort of freaking out. And I and he said, Yes. And I said, Well, we've met before, and whatever. Yes, yes. So I want to be a writer. And he said, Well, do you write every day? And I said, No. And he said, then you're not a writer. Next. I was like, Oh, I was so angry. And it's like, wow, I felt like I don't know. But yeah, it was really, really made me mad. But it was right, you know, I had to get get my ass in gear to crack and get cracking. And so come the strike and 88 I'm out there on the picket line. And here comes Bradbury walk in opposite way. He's got this giant head. He does. He's got it. And I see him coming. And so I stopped. And I said, Hey, Ray, and I said, you know, you will really remember me, but Bob, like. And he was, oh, it was very friendly. And he said, and I said, Oh, isn't this cool? Here we are on the strike line. We're writers, you know, we're peers. But I said, I still don't write every day.

But that was, you know, that was the kind of thing it was, it was a thrill to just see some of these these people that had grown up and I was, you know, in awe of and and to be now sort of marching with them to be part of that same organization to be in the same arena was thrilling.

Scott Mcmahon 1:09:22
Yeah, yeah. That's cool. That's the stuff like, I'd like to haven't heard a lot of interviews with a different writers. And they sort of just kind of gloss over that as if it's like, just where the interviews go, is. They just sort of Oh, yeah. So I got my agent and I got this deal. And then we moved on, I had to work on this story. But no one ever stopped and, like, wanted to know those holes intricacies of just the personal motion that people have that says, Well, this is trippy, this is really crazy that I'm able to do this or I'm meeting somebody.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:10:06
And, and then because it it reflects on your own sort of, I guess self worth worth, and you're like, how am I here? You know, that kind of thing. And I think it's cool because it sounds it makes all this experience human.

Randall Jahnson 1:10:19
What? What I just recall now was after the dude's deal happened my other roommate, Mike penciled he said that this I guess I'll set this up for the dudes. He and a very good friend of his and subsequently subsequently become a friend of mine. Got a wonderful guy named John Hart, who had gone to USC film school and was a cameraman. And he John, we had met John because John shot Greg widens project to which was this year 16 millimeter film, okay. And John was just this. He was from upstate New York, he was just completely different from any of us that had grey cotton come from California, you know, and just really, John was just tremendously fun. But he and Mike kidnap me was one night after this happened. And I remember this, they took me, they took me down to we went out, we wait way east, downtown, right over the LA River. I was like, Okay, it's like Fourth Street Bridge or something like that was right, right, needle bridge, whatever. But at this point, this was no man's land. There was no one out there. It was about two or three in the morning. They they pulled out a bottle of champagne, and they popped it and they said, here's to, to me. Man, you know, to say, you know, you're, you know, the beginning of a new career and that that staggered may that was, that was a wonderful my choked up. I had tears running down my cheeks at that point, because it was so cool. You know, it was just, it was just a wonderful gesture. And those guys were, you know, like, you know, what can you say? I mean, I didn't, not much to say but but drains. Yeah. There was a, there was a diner down there a little bastion of light. In the in that No Man's Land of you know, art lofts and stuff at that time is called Gore keys. And it stayed open. I think it might have been 24/7 You know, and they took me we went there afterwards after we did that. And I remember eating that they had like Russian food and stuff. And I remember eating there after that. They always had hot waitresses there too. It is LA. Oh, God, all these aren't damaged. You know. And that was yeah, that was a pretty neat night. That was That was great. So it was it was very it was monumental fan. You know,

Scott Mcmahon 1:13:08
I thank you for sharing. Because you're I mean, that's, it's cool. It's it's cool to hear. I mean, it's cool to know that. Yeah, we're all human. And it's real like that. I'm sure everyone has the those who are working professionally have these little moments where they feel like just like there's a little fleeting moments of Whoa, that's feels good. But then then but you know, next day you got to get on and work but I think it's a perfect place to stop the podcast. We've been talking for a while and I think it's a great segue into the production of dudes and then how you got to how you got how you got to a chance to write the doors and all that stuff. Yeah, but I think this is fantastic because we've covered in the first part sort of where you started how you got into punk rock and and why that music scene was important to you and now we're in the second phase. Yeah, well,

Randall Jahnson 1:13:57
let me just sign off a bit once we sign off I mean, I got into punk rock by accident really? I mean, cuz I was I was writing a script that was a murder mystery. I think I mentioned this before there was a murder mystery set in the punk rock scene of LA and and it wasn't because I was really into punk rock it just that I thought it was a very exotic place that said a murder mystery. Okay, and so I started attending all these shows as research you know, and for you know, for the for this stuff and I had made friends with all these bands because I started contacting them and I would read what you know, the the cool bands, what the cool bands were, and there had been some that were associated with you at UCLA Film School as well. So I started I knew of them and whatever. So that's how I really got in started getting into the music. The the script panned out. I could I finished it I wrote like 25 pages of it or 30 pages of it and then I put it away but I haven't somebody

Scott Mcmahon 1:14:57
got a hold of me because I think actually I saw a T A show that had that premise. Oh was that was like it was like Cagney Lacey or something. Some kind of show back then. Yeah, that it starts off at a punk show, where people were a mosh dancing, and there's a murder. And then the whole scene surrounds the whole punk rock scene and murders anyway. Yeah, it made it to. I know, Murder She Wrote. I've seen that premise. Yeah, I'm assuming that somebody found it.

Randall Jahnson 1:15:23
Yeah, maybe. So maybe, but what, you know, whatever the case was, I mean, that. That's why I began investigating a lot of this, you know, initially, and then the music. But, I mean, after the script panned out, I still had all these contacts with these bands. And I was kind of, I started really digging the music. And yeah, and so that's, that started then leading to the notion of like, Wow, maybe I could direct some music videos for the broken and have any kind of money, or have any kind of money. So as I maybe we can just do cheat and do stuff on the complete fly here and see what happens. And so that's, you know, but that's another story as well, because I was doing all these videos working with Black Flag, Henry Rollins, writing, writing dudes that don't, and then starting the doors thing was, it was all like happening, it was at once from about 84. To to 8086. And even, you know, beyond that was a very high, highly busy time for me.

Scott Mcmahon 1:16:28
So crazy. I was skateboarding at that time. And obviously, that the skateboarding culture bled into that, sure. That was the music of the time. Like all the older kids, were, you know, into the punk scene, and especially southern California. And, you know, it was different, cuz we're like, I don't hear this on the radio, like, you see, like, this is such a subculture than what is being out there on TV. And it was sort of like the first opportunity of like, independence and skateboarding was definitely embedded with the punk scene, especially I think, with the Z to Z town boys. And you know, that whole long beach scene and Venice beach scene and all of that, no doubt all of that and the look the way or the attitude. And then, but that's how I, you know, obviously, my upbringing, a lot of other Southern California kids that are in the scene, probably saw it the same way so to know that you were making and interacting with those bands where I was just like a bystander of a kid just picking up whatever records I can at back then Tower Records or yeah, what's it called lagers, pizza? Remember that? Yeah, sure. Anyway, I think a lot of my first albums she's, you know, the best thing in my thing, my dad eventually, some of the stuff that I was going to punk shows and like, I come back with, like, the pamphlets and stuff. Yeah, I'm only like, 1213 at the time. So he's come he's looking at this going. Yeah. He's like, he was really disturbed, like, what is going on with my son?

Randall Jahnson 1:18:01
I remember seeing a picture of the Sex Pistols and some was like Parade Magazine. And they were like, you know, warning about the new horrible trend and you know, rock and roll or whatever and use extra pistols and they look like some it's just like, oh, a freak show. thing. And I was so horrified. Like, oh, no, rock'n'roll isn't coming to this because prior that this is, of course back in like 7778 When I was just, I was 77 was my senior year in high school. And I hadn't come to I wasn't going to go to LA until my junior year I transferred up from community college. So I was still in kind of the fishbowl of Carlsbad, California. But, you know, I was listening to Yes, the blues right Emerson Lake and Palmer and the prog rock arena, and he Well, yeah, the prog rock, you know, yeah. And the arena rock kind of stuff. And then this whole thing of the Sex Pistols. Oh, it just sounded just sounded wrong. And I was so intimidated and threatened by what they look like and everything and then then I get up to LA and it was just it all changed, it changed. And all that stuff just still resonates with me hugely. Because it's it's a it's a represents an approach to creativity. That is so resonant and still today, you know, I mean, really, it's, it's about doing it yourself. Yeah, it's Yeah, DIY man DIY. This was the original DIY stuff. And but that's another story and we'll pick that up.

Scott Mcmahon 1:19:38
I think we'll wrap it up for tonight. I was good. Felt good. Well, welcome. We got a little cameo from your friend Frederick. And yeah, where he takes off. Oh, sure. I think he's like here every night before he takes off.

Randall Jahnson 1:19:53
This is the launch pad. I think that's what it is.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:20:06
You just basically made the deals and had your little, your buddies help you celebrate the sale of the dudes. And I wanted to get into sort of the production of dudes and sort of lead our way into the doors. But what I wanted to tell you is like, about a month ago, I was down in Portland and I came across this like, you know, weird books, sitcom bookstore thing, but they had like, a bunch of array of like, unusual books in there too. And they had a book was like, Punk in the cinema or the American cinema.

Randall Jahnson 1:20:40
Was it floating world where you were out? And it's like in fifth?

Scott Mcmahon 1:20:45
Yeah, it's like, just Yes. It's kind of just fifth and I think it's yeah, it's just right off near is near like Chinatown. Just yeah. So have you ever floated? Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 1:20:56
they have a lot of counterculture stuff. Okay, so that's a great store. And Jason, leave Leviathan Leviathan,

Scott Mcmahon 1:21:06
I think says Yeah, well, that was your last name.

Randall Jahnson 1:21:11
So wonderful guy. Very friendly. And that's his store. And I love that story. That's actually got me really excited a lot about comics and

Scott Mcmahon 1:21:20
Oh, really? Yeah. I kind of stumbled into because it was I was looking for the 24 hour Church of Elvis. Oh, yeah. And I guess it used to be there. But now they've closed whatever it used to be there. Now. It's just this hole in the wall, right? This like weird display that has these buttons you asked you to push? And you can't hear anything. Can't hear anything. It's like the most weird sort of like useless.

Randall Jahnson 1:21:44
Yeah, we're so where is that now?

Scott Mcmahon 1:21:45
I it's just on the other side of Burnside. So what it goes Burnside, there's kuj. It's like yeah, it's fourth fifth. It's right around the edge of

Randall Jahnson 1:21:55
Chinatown. I didn't realize it was it was I thought it was further up north it

Scott Mcmahon 1:21:59
might have been but they changed it and that's where the location so right down the in the corner of that is that come book counter? Culture? Bookstore. Yeah. But I was in there. And I saw this book. It was like punk, history Punk in the cinema, or whatever it was. And there was like, halfway through fools full spread is like dudes had like a full spread of like your, of the cover of the movie and like little synopsis, and it's really kind of cool. Get out of here. Really? Yeah. I thought you might have no, no, I did. Okay, so we had to get that for you for Christmas.

Randall Jahnson 1:22:31
Oh, wow. Just Oh, crap. I didn't know that. That's great. Yeah,

Scott Mcmahon 1:22:35
it was. I mean, it's a pretty thick book. I mean, it goes through like a bunch of stuff of like, about punk reference or anything related in cinema. And this, you know, it wasn't just like little like, picture and blurb. It was a full thing. It was a full page picture. One side and other side was the right up. So anyway, I'll let you know what's out there.

Randall Jahnson 1:22:56
Oh, wow. Thank you. Well, it's very interesting, because, you know, it was dudes was directed by Penelope Spheeris, who, who really got on the map with the decline of Western civilization, which was her her documentary on the LA punk scene, in really circa 78 7980. You know, with x and fear and the germs, you know, she had a lot of a lot of footage of interviews with Darby cry, she would be dead, you know, in a very short amount of time. When and that was one of the compelling aspects of the of the whole movie, but so Penelope had a lot of street cred, you know, in terms of the punk scene, right.

Scott Mcmahon 1:23:44
Was this their first feature after the documentary?

Randall Jahnson 1:23:46
No, no, she had done. She had done actually two or three more films, narrative films, before dudes, but she'd done it from Roger Corman. And one of them was called the boys next door, which starred Charlie Sheen. And a young, a very young Charlie Sheen, and that, you know, at that point, Emilio Estevez, his brother had all the street cred, or at all that was sort of an established star because especially in the punk world, because he had been in remote and Repo Man, where is that? Well, this was repo man. And dudes came out basically the same year, or they were being filmed almost simultaneously. So this was 8580. Was it let's say it at 8686 87 Right? Yeah. Dudes was actually shot mostly during 86 As I recall now, and but it didn't get much of a release until 87. Then it was barely you And what's interesting too, is that d dudes has never come out on DVD. And we're actually in the process of tracking it down right now and see if we can get it released on DVD. But what makes everything so difficult is that there has been a chain of bankruptcies declared by the whatever entity that that acquired the rights to require the the actual funny and finished film, because they dudes was made by the VISTA organization, and they made three or four films, and then they were bought by someone, and then that company folded and then they were bought and gobbled up by another corporate entity, and so on, and so on and so on. And so becomes very difficult to actually follow the the chain of title right before. And you know, and what's fascinating is that this is relatively recent history. I mean, you know, as a 19, you know, this was a film that was released in 1987. Right? And yet, they're, they're serious doubt as to who owns it. And imagine, you know, we're gonna figure that that shows you in one level, how fast these corporations you know, bye, bye. Come and go. And they come and go, and the rights to things or get gets very confused right.

Scott Mcmahon 1:26:27
Now, I think I remember, well, we saw the film on your writing class, because one of your students was able to get a copy or you had a copy of No, I had a copy of it. Okay, so you basically,

Randall Jahnson 1:26:37
yeah, basically, what happened is, I fortunately, I'm glad I did, I purchased a laser disc of it when a disc was this big chrome planter, you know. And when I moved up here, actually, a friend of mine, who was coincidentally the engineer on, on two of the records that I put out on my record label back in the 80s was an AMI record label. Yeah, blue yonder sounds and

Scott Mcmahon 1:27:10
how long did it last year?

Randall Jahnson 1:27:12
Well, it lasted about three years. You know, a couple of years, three years, something like that, you know, I mean, you can. But Steve sharp, who engineered the album by the fifth Fibonacci, which was the first release, and then the second one by a band called slack who were from Portland, Oregon. Well, Steve was originally from Portland, Oregon. And then he moved back to Portland, Oregon, when I moved up here. I went to go see, my friend, Stan Ridgway, who was performing at Mississippi studios. With us, this is like in July, you know, we moved here in June of 2007. And then in July, Stan came through town, and I went to go see him. And while I was waiting in the beer line at Mississippi, I hear, Hey, Randy. And I did not recognize them. But it was Steve sharp. And he now shaves his head, whereas back then he had big poofy, 80s hair. Right. And, and so he, Steve sharp and said, Oh my god, Steve, what are you doing here? And so anyway, long story short, Steve has a media duplication company and a recording studio and everything here in town. Yeah. So. Wow, great. All right here. Okay. It's a beautiful thing. Thank you. But you will see I finish with right on anything else? We're guess? We're pretty good for now. Yes, thank you. Yeah. Don't forget us. So, Steve, I said look, I've got a laser disc. Is there any way of getting something duplicated on you know, and so basically, we got we're able to get a DVD copy of dudes pulled off of the laserdisc the digital copy there, but the quality isn't that great. You know, it's not like still looking at the original thing and it was shot by Bob Richardson who has gone on to become in Martin Scorsese's dp and he was Oliver Stones DP for the for the doors and many other films and he's an Academy Award winner. He shoots beautiful stuff and always has and so you know, I don't think our little you know, rip off DVD was, you know, doing it justice, but Right, right. You know, it worked for my class.

Scott Mcmahon 1:29:47
That was cool. We'll take a little break or eat your back. Let's see here.

Alex Ferrari 1:29:54
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:30:04
All right, well, let's talk about your production of dudes. So boom, you realize it's happening, right?

Randall Jahnson 1:30:12
Well, what happened was that I wrote my my first draft, which was really long, it was like 140 pages long or something like that, you know, in generally a screenplay should be coming in at tops, you know, 120 pages, right? And even a little less than is better. But mine came in it was it was this epic, epic punk rock Western.

Scott Mcmahon 1:30:34
I shoot for about 50 pages now. Yeah. Yeah, and I say add action scene here now. Right.

Randall Jahnson 1:30:47
Oh, thank you. But in the case of dudes, then they got a director involved. You know? I guess I got notes from Miguel Tata Floros. And Hank Palmieri, and producer herb Jaffe, at that, at that stage in which I then, you know, we all knew we had to cut it down. So I worked really hard and just really condensing it and getting rid of any anything that was fat. And then Penelope Spheeris, came aboard. And they were talking it was the script was making the rounds at the studios as well. They were trying to get a studio maybe further on board.

Scott Mcmahon 1:31:29
Because so they're already in the midst of producing it, but they want a little bit more back. Yeah, yeah.

Randall Jahnson 1:31:34
You know, what happens sometimes is that an independent company will say, Okay, we've got this, maybe we can get somebody to come on board more. And

Scott Mcmahon 1:31:46
I'll adjust. No, no, I just met, I moved it closer, you

Randall Jahnson 1:31:49
get to throw to throw some more money at us or something. And I was told, you know, it got out to Columbia, Columbia was kind of interested in it. And actually, Ridley Scott, I was told Ridley Scott had read it was very interested, or were somewhat interested in it. That's obviously not enough to go to get behind it and make it but because, you know, ultimately, it was interesting. He goes and makes Thelma and Louise not that much later. But there were you know, there's kind of a little bit of similarities to it. But anyhow, they started taking meetings with potential directors for it. And to quote Miguel Penelope came in and met with them. And he said, she impressed the shit out of us. And Penelope told me later to that she went in there and she said, look, there are only two people on the planet who can direct this me and Alex Cox and Alex Cox was already making repo man at that stage. She said, it's got to be me. So I met her and she gave me some notes. And then I did some refining. But the great thing about Penelope was that she just she really loved the script. I mean, she really didn't want to change much at all. Not not in rare. Yeah, it's pretty rare. It's pretty rare. And in quite, quite frankly, I mean, Penelope was just, you know, she was just really wonderful. She was so welcoming, and encouraged me to be on the set as much as possible. She invited me at every stage of the process to be involved. For example, once she came aboard, and they started having casting sessions, she invited me to a casting session to come in.

Scott Mcmahon 1:33:43
Now, did you have those three sort of main characters? Well, sort of the three guys, three dudes. But did you when you're writing have actors in mind? No writing,

Randall Jahnson 1:33:56
okay, not really. The only guy that I had in mind was the villain. And that was leaving, play by leaving. The villain was his name was Missoula was a nickname. And it was played by leaving but I wrote it with leaving in mind because he was the lead singer of fear. One of the bands that was featured in the decline of Western civilization, but I had seen fear a couple of times, and I thought he was very very menacing. And he was a real kind of there was a redneck cracker kind of quality to the sky that was behind all the, the the intimidate intimidation, there's a real biker kind of going lately was very, you know, really provocative presence. So I hadn't really with him in mind, but the other three guys biscuit and you know, Grant and Milo. I didn't have anyone in particular

Scott Mcmahon 1:34:57
line. So when you saw that when you go to the casting show And then you're

Randall Jahnson 1:35:01
well, I had I mean, I had in mind a character, right, you know what I wanted. And it was interesting because we on that particular day that I was allowed to sit in, or she invited me to sit in. We saw read for the part, we saw Tim Robbins. Kyle McLaughlin, and Kiefer Sutherland and Michael Dunbar who was, you know, sort of 70s glam rocker, you know, in that, who wasn't quite who wasn't right. And all those guys gave interesting readings. But the one I was most impressed with, was a keeper. Right? But Penelope didn't go for him as much because she felt he didn't have a sense of humor. And that was interesting to me, because I never felt that Grant had a sense of humor or should have had a sense of humor. It was the the movies, comedic quality came out of out of situations where you have these punkers you know, a city of, you know, floundering out and the Wild West, you know, the modern West. And that's, that, to me was a funny situation. And if there was any humor in the Express by either of the characters, it was out of biscuit. It was this big slobbery. Yeah, kind of a lovable but, you know, a lummix. Right. And so, but we disagreed on that and she she just didn't feel it was right. But ultimately, you know, we was played by Jon Cryer that cast stone prior because he was coming off of the John Hughes movies pretty pretty. He was pretty big. He was Ducky, ducky. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know. So,

Scott Mcmahon 1:36:54
and I don't think kefir hadn't made stand by me yet, Hattie. No, he had not. Okay. So no one really kind of

Randall Jahnson 1:37:01
he was he was a known quantity. Yeah. You know, they knew about him because of this, you know, certainly the the, the his father but but they didn't. He hadn't quite proven he had bit parts. I think that, you know, prior to that. And it was shortly after that, that he started, you know, taking off.

Scott Mcmahon 1:37:23
Because he was like, stand by me then. Oh, Lost Boys. Yeah. That's kind of cemented that, sir. Very. Yeah, he was a good heavy.

Randall Jahnson 1:37:31
Yeah. Well, he was good. And you know, he had that he had suitable answer. And he physically he was menacing. You could be menacing. And that's what I wanted with, you know, with with Grant, somebody could go head to head with leaving, you know, in a way. And then you'd have the lummix of biscuit, who was based on a took his name from a lead singer of a band called the big boys who were skate punks from Austin, Texas. And interview Randy biscuit. Turner was there. And he was awesome. That's awesome. I only saw them once. But their records hold up really, really? Well. They were great. And then Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago, I think but the big boys were were rockin and then ultimately then she also cast flee. Right and the chili peppers as Milo the ill. ill fated Milo which was interesting because on one level, because flee had filled in as bass player for temporary basically player for fear. Oh, okay. So in a sense, backing up leaving, and I thought it was always funny that I hear was, you know, the movie contest? The lead singer was killing his bass player.

Scott Mcmahon 1:38:48
Now, that was real quick, cuz I don't think we're gonna lose anything here by just giving the premise of the movie. Right? It's like no, no,

Randall Jahnson 1:38:57
basically, in a nutshell, it's about three New York punk rockers who get fed up with all the urban blight living in the city and decide to drive cross country to California. Yeah, because they want to go they want to meet the Go Go's or something. It's they want to get away from Jersey and they want to get away or you know, Queens, whatever. And what happens then is they're traveling across the country. They're camping out in Arizona, and then they get attacked by this group of rednecks who are who are out killing illegal aliens or whatever they put kicks. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:39:39
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:39:48
So they find these guys and wrong place wrong time and place wrong time. And so one of them gets killed and the other to the surviving to grant biscuit Without events there, buddy, and go on the trail of these killers, when no one else will write and write. And so it's a it's an epic Western. So they try, they try and track from Arizona and ends up at least on the script, it ends up in the mountains of Montana. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was a, they were crossing all the way. And so I traveled all around those areas. I wanted to, you know, actually make it really authentic to make sure they're going to real rise and all of that. But they meet characters along the way that come and go. And Catherine, Mary Stewart plays a random a young woman who has a tote drives a tow truck, right, okay. And she comes out to their aid a few times. And then she actually gives them a few tips on surviving and gives him some guns and and I wrote the I wrote the, the role for a much older woman, I wanted to see that it was, you know, it was Grant getting involved with with an older woman. So it would be it would have been like, you know, Kiefer Sutherland and Barbara Hershey. That time, okay. But, you know, Hollywood being what it is. They ended up casting Catherine, Mary Stewart, who was in I think, The Last Starfighter, you know, and who's actually quite lovely, and she ended up being playing the role of Jessie and gonna fill in that role pretty well. Yeah, not she did a good job. Yeah, she broke her arm during the production of it actually went out to the set when they were filming outside of Flagstaff, Arizona. And by the way, another great thing about Penelope, she asked me a lot. She said, Where where should this take place? Or do you have any ideas where this location is and this and that, and I directed her to some of the places that I had found specifically in in Arizona, in and around the Verde Valley, which is, you know, just north of Phoenix about about 100 miles or so it's in between Phoenix and Flagstaff. It's very close to Sedona. So there's some great old ghost towns, interesting places out there. And so, I went out there to the set, she welcomed me to come out. And so I was there for a few days while they were shooting on location and the date the first day I got there and finally got to the set. There was a scene where they were riding horses through this beautiful, beautiful setting, right? Right on the edge of Flagstaff and she fell off a horse I think, and this is like I'd been there like five minutes and she fell off this horse. The horse stopped abruptly and she went like ass over Yeah. Saddle pommel and broke her arm. Arm. Yeah, but she was quite the troopers. She She toughed it out, she got that thing, put in a cast, and then they covered it up with a long sleeve.

Scott Mcmahon 1:43:06
So some of the shoots she was just tightening it. Yeah, she was

Randall Jahnson 1:43:09
hiding it. And she got back on the horse and did some more writing and all sorts of stuff. So she was shooting press me quite a bit crazy. Yeah. You know, movies show must go on, you know.

Scott Mcmahon 1:43:19
So you got to see the whole movie. And, you know, you're like, the first movie. Yeah, like holy cow. And then,

Randall Jahnson 1:43:26
and I wanted to be there every every day. Right, but I couldn't. Because I got the job and the doors. And I had early. Yeah, I had to start.

Scott Mcmahon 1:43:36
Okay. Okay, that's perfect. So not only because I think let me double check here. So you said, so you're doing that. Hold on, sir. I want to just make sure I get this in Chronicle. Chronicle.

Speaker 2 1:43:52
I can't speak chronicled. Yes. The

Scott Mcmahon 1:43:54
chronological order here.

Randall Jahnson 1:43:57
It's the dead guy speaking.

Scott Mcmahon 1:44:00
Or it's just me making fun of my mother for so many years. Okay, let's see here. Come on. There we go. So it says here because this is all true. IMDB.

Randall Jahnson 1:44:19
on IMDb, then it's true.

Scott Mcmahon 1:44:21
Okay, this is good. Okay, so yes, you're working on dudes. So How and where did the doors project come up during the filming in the production dudes?

Randall Jahnson 1:44:30
Well, again, Hollywood is a streaky business. So you know, there it's, it's all about hype. And in the anytime you have something going and heading into production that creates a fair amount of momentum. So suddenly everybody's interested in you know, what you're doing and what your next project is and all of that. So I had some real heat based on that because again, the script had kicked around the studios as well, right. It was The there was some interest there. So the doors project had been languishing for years because they had as I think I explained before they had there were quarreling parties that were involved. Okay, finally, Bill Graham, the rock promoter was able to put all the quarreling parties together in one room and get them all on the same page and get them to agree to make this particular movie. It was a huge bit of politics and

Scott Mcmahon 1:45:28
all this stuff was going on prior to even showing up right. Okay.

Randall Jahnson 1:45:31
So it was finally set and was set up at Columbia Pictures and Columbia was where Ridley Scott had his deal. And so that's how I think dudes got circulated out there. And one thing right, you know, so they had read it, and they were aware of it now, simultaneous with all of this is that my, one of my roommates from film school, Mike penciled was dating. A young executive at at Columbia, a development executive named Jude Schneider. And Jude was the executive who inherited the doors project. So it was her job then to go out and find your appropriate writer for it. So she asked her boyfriend, my old roommate, Mike, doing good for this. And Mike, who was aspiring to be a producer at that point, too, as well is just saying, Well, you know, he knew a lot of writers around but also, you know, he said, you know, Randy, I was Randy them. And so I got the call, and I knew Jude anyway, just through Mike Yeah, slightly, but not, you know, not real close. So, she got me out to come out and talk about it with her and then she said, I want to, I want to put you together then with a producer on it. Okay. And the producer was a guy named Sasha Harare, who was an Israeli computer magnate made a lot of money in in software. Way back when and he had bought his way onto the project. He had never produced anything before but he had bought a strategic piece of the pie. He bought the sync rights to the doors music, which Yeah, no one can make a movie with doors using DOORS music without pain. Right the Piper was Sasha

Scott Mcmahon 1:47:26
well that for once I close that door

Randall Jahnson 1:47:32
close the door and the doors Yeah, that's cold though.

Scott Mcmahon 1:47:47
Yeah, good reason. All right. So so very, which is that? Yeah, to think like the producers who bought the rights. Harry Potter, right. That just opened up.

Randall Jahnson 1:47:58
Yes, it did. It's just like, it was like a ghost. That's pretty funny. No, you can't do that. But, you know.

Scott Mcmahon 1:48:02
Funny. All right. We got a ghost. Yeah. So sorry.

Randall Jahnson 1:48:19
Jim Morrison coming. So Jude facilitated a meeting for me to meet the producer. Sasha he was he was apparently the lead producer at that point. So I met with him. We had lunch, and that he speak English pretty well. No, actually have very thick Israeli accent. Yeah, he tended to mumble a bit. And so it's

Scott Mcmahon 1:48:52
kind of hard to tell if you're getting good response. Oh, he must have been like, I don't know about Oh, I thought I

Randall Jahnson 1:48:57
told you. I thought it was over after 10 or 15 minutes. I mean, you know, yeah, I thought it was just going to be a very long lunch because I felt like I was shooting blanks. Yeah, I was not seeing anything that made any sense to him at all? Well, let

Scott Mcmahon 1:49:09
me let me back up on that. Real quick. So you know, you're going into this meeting, you know, what the project is about is just the doors. So how much preparation do you do before you go into the meeting? In terms of like reading up about the doors? Or do you have something preset in your mind about this is how I would tackle the story or

Randall Jahnson 1:49:27
Well, it's helpful. Yeah. Because they, when you're going through an interview process with producers, so it's essentially it's an audition piece. Now granted, they usually have read something that you have written prior to that. But they're also listening to agents and, and studio executives and and listening to their recommendations on who they should meet and all that. But when it really comes down to it, it's about chemistry. And it's about, it's about your vision.

Alex Ferrari 1:49:57
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:50:06
You know, so granted at that time, unlike today where there is a, you know, there's a dozen biographies out and Jim Morrison Yeah. Now, at that time there were no biographies, except for no one here gets out alive, which was written by Danny Sugarman and Jerry Hopkins, which I read, but I was not impressed with it for a variety of reasons it but it struck me as being very sensationalized and what wasn't footnoted? That's always if a book isn't footnoted, that's nonfiction. You know, I find it very difficult to believe, right. You know, some of the sources they say that they get the they they get their material from anyhow, I had read that I was a DOORS fan. I wasn't a DOORS fanatic. I had a couple of their albums. I didn't have the complete catalogue. Yeah. And but I had gone to UCLA, film school, which Morrison and Raymond's Eric, the keyboardist had had attended. And we had actually shared a couple of the same instructors. They were they had attended, you know, and I think 6465 Okay, and I was there and started in 79 and 8080, and out in 82. And so what happened, though, is that I caught a couple of these professors at the very end of their tenure, after many years there and that one was Ed Brokaw and the other was loose Doman and they both had had Morrison and, and Raymond's Eric, his students, and he left the door wide open there. And

Scott Mcmahon 1:51:49
he's having now down Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 1:51:51
so that brought a little credibility for me, because I you know, it's always about insider information. And somebody Oh, he must be really in touch. Because he's come up through the so you did all the UCLA Film School mystique. Okay. So

Scott Mcmahon 1:52:08
do you do is prep work before? Like,

Randall Jahnson 1:52:10
not really, because there wasn't a whole lot to do other than listen to their music, read the book.

Scott Mcmahon 1:52:15
How many days did you have to prepare to do like one day like he's gonna meet with him tomorrow? Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 1:52:20
it was pretty quick. It came up, I think, within a couple of days, because they were ready to go, they had to get moving. You know, they were they'd been this project had been festering for years. And so now that they finally had the green light to do it, that people were very, very eager to have moving. So I went and met with Sasha on this, this restaurant up on, on the Sunset Strip there and Hollywood, West Hollywood and sat down and we started chatting, and I just felt right away. This is not working. It's not going anywhere.

Scott Mcmahon 1:52:49
Did you feel like you're doing most of the talking? And he was just kind of looking mumbling Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 1:52:54
Yeah, basically, he was even closer. Sure.

Scott Mcmahon 1:53:13
He's just cooking out there.

Randall Jahnson 1:53:16
On the chef's Yeah, well, he's cooking and out there. We're freezing in here.

Scott Mcmahon 1:53:20
He's like yah no problem close it. Anyway, so you're just great. So yeah, it was the meeting like 20 minutes?

Randall Jahnson 1:53:28
Well, it was about to be I thought it was going to be over real fast. It was the quickest lunch ever because I thought I was boring them and we just couldn't find seem to be finding any any common ground. And granted again, to I at this time had had directed. You know, I've been working with Henry Rollins, Black Flag, men. And so I was kind of very steeped in the punk culture in LA at that time. Just didn't seem to matter to him. So then I said something that was I remember him cocking his head. And I felt that I made some sort of impression. And that was I drew the comparison between Jim Morrison and Lawrence of Arabia. And the movie Lawrence of Arabia, in which I said that both of these guys were very charismatic, very well educated, well read young men who were literally swept up by the events and the wave of history. And they served it as best they could. But what was happening is that there was a discrepancy that arose between their public persona and their private ones. And it got to the point of where that discrepancy pulled them so far apart that something had to snap, and it did, and it broke them out. I got my attention. And that did He cocked his head and then what I thought was going to be a 20 minute conversation ended up being two hours. We Were there for a couple of hours. That was a turning point was the turning piano hook, gone with that hook. And so who would have thunk, but that's the way that's the way it worked. And so he became very curious then about, you know what I thought and because he was Sasha was very intrigued with the notion that Jim was indeed a poet. He was he was an intellectual. Yeah, and arguably, he was. So he wanted to see that aspect really exploited and dramatized as much as possible. And so when I brought that up, I mean that to him, you know, there was there was a corollary between him and Lawrence of Arabia, te Lawrence, who was, you know, was a writer, and basically, you had the poet, the soul of a poet himself. But Lawrence was homosexual. And Lawrence also started believing his own press, at a certain point, at least, that was the take that the movie had. And it became very, very difficult for him to measure up to the sort of the public, or the heroic image that that had been perpetuated them by the media of the day. So it's very true with with Morrison Morrison wasn't a homosexual. He's probably bisexual. Yeah. But he had some secrets and some issues that, you know, caused him to, to snap, you know, to break as well. So, and also then the other thing that, I think scored some points was that I said, and this was one of the reasons why I really wanted to do the project was I had felt there had never been a rock and roll epic. Yeah. You know, up until that point, we'd seen the Buddy Holly story and the Richie Valens story and things like that Coal Miner's Daughter, which was really great, but it was different types of music and different, we hadn't seen a really serious treatment of rock and roll, and rock and roll, epic rock and roll.

Scott Mcmahon 1:57:08
Yeah, at a crucial time, like you said, it's different like the by high pitch the value or is is is different.

Randall Jahnson 1:57:14
And so I felt that the doors really had that potential, you because the, because of the subject matter of what they they sang about and what they their performances and the way they orchestrated things and the way their albums were produced and all of that, and you know, in Morrison's vision and men's Eric's vision and all of that they collectively they they had scope. It was It wasn't bubblegum rock. Yeah, it wasn't Paul Revere and the Raiders are, you know, really was about that was about the big questions, you know, yeah. And so that's what I bought dramatically. cinematically, it had great potential. And that's why I wanted to do it.

Scott Mcmahon 1:57:51
Did you find yourself once you cry, you broke through that like 20 minute mark, and you realize that now you're gelling? having this conversation that? Are the things kind of come in your mind. Like it's just you started just riding the wave yourself?

Randall Jahnson 1:58:04
You started the station started talking about your aspirin? Yeah, you do. You gotta do like, no, yeah, they

Scott Mcmahon 1:58:11
give you like this dolphin No, no, not.

Randall Jahnson 1:58:15
A bit. Yeah, it gets like that. It's, it's pretty funny. And you got to be careful to have like, not not promising more than you can deliver. But you can't help you get excited. And, and they and they feel that, you know, they producers, and executives and stuff, they they want to be swept up with the with your enthusiasm, they want to see your vision as well. Right? And they want to feel it. So it's a it's exciting for them, when you get excited and you sell them on it, you know, and then they're going to get on board because they usually have to turn around and then either have to sell you to their boss or to the studio or tested to some sort of money entity, that they and make them feel confident and good enough that they are making the right decision in hiring you and that you and only you have have the vision to pull this off. Right. So when I went off to this meeting, I remember talking to my my agent at the time, Rick Jaffa who I mentioned in our last session, you know, wrote has written with his wife, The Rise of the Planet of the Apes, you know, he left Morris to go become a writer. Rick was still my agent at that time. And he called me before I had this lunch before I called him up to tell him that I had this meeting that Jude had set up with Sasha and and he said, Listen, you know, you said I don't mean to dice your hopes, you know, rain on your parade, but, you know, they're talking to some really heavy hitters. It's a very, very slim chance you're gonna get that gig. Okay, I said, I don't care. I'm gonna I gotta go for it. I want to try, right? We try for it. And so he was very pleasantly surprised when when I got the gig But however, I didn't know I really had it.

Alex Ferrari 2:00:04
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 2:00:13
See, Sasha was very good poker player and so. So we that 20 minute lunch expanded into to a two hour lunch and we'd left. And then I heard from Jude I believe a later on that said, All right, he wants you to come and meet the doors. Now, the surviving doors. Great. Nothing else. That's already been worth it. Yeah. So we met and I can't remember if it was at Columbia Studios, or if it was at some other location there. But we had a preliminary meeting and where I met them. I can't remember if Jude was present in that meeting or not. But what was interesting was that man's Eric was there and men Zarek was impressed with with the stuff that I had done music video wise, and and also with my record label, and here's the here's where it got. No, no, my record label hadn't hadn't been established yet. But here's here's where it got incestuous though, which was that men's. Eric was producing X at the time. Oh, X was of course right now the punk rock band of LA and LA. Yeah, so man's Eric was producing them. So he was very keyed into what their their, you know, vibe and aesthetic was. Then he was a further impressed by the fact that I had gone through I was through UCLA. And we had had some of the shame Siemens instructors, so We compared notes. Yeah, a lot. And then Ray was also very interested in a band called the Fibonacci series who were he was interested in producing them. And they were the band that ultimately that would be my debut band on my record label. So I got to kind of really, and then then Densmore, the drummer John Densmore to the doors found out that I had written dudes, and he knew about dudes already. That it was I don't know, in the, in the works somewhere. And John was acting a lot at that point. And he immediately said, Do you think you can get a nice part in the movie? Like this? Oh, I just. I said, Well, sure. And then I had also the other thing that brought them in Zurich like was that I had been working with black flag and Henry Rollins. And I had always argued that, you know, the doors were much more punk rock than they were FlowerPower psychedelic, oh, yeah, generation kind of stuff. And that Henry was, you know, sort of the spiritual inheritor of the Morrison legacy, you know, by doing all his spoken word stuff, and I felt Henry had potentially had some acting chops. And there was even some discussion about Henry even possibly being the guy to play Jim, just very briefly. But Henry and I were piling around a lot at that time. And so I actually brought Henry over and to meet men's Eric and Paul Rotschild and Bruce Botnick, who engineered all the doors albums in Roswell, who produced them all. With some recording session was going on that they end so the he thought that was really cool. I scored a lot of points on that day, because Henry was really impressed to meet men's Eric and Rothchild. And men's Eric was really impressed to me, Henry and further just kind of, I think submitted my street cred in terms that I I was the right guy for to do this project. Right, right. So that's how in session and then I got I got Densmore an audition for dudes and Penelope Castile. So he's in dudes. He plays sheriff in a, you know, that's right. A Montana town and leaving blows him away, you know, at the very end there and but it was it was really funny. It was quite a time that was a high watermark in my, my career. And I so yeah, 1986

Scott Mcmahon 2:04:34
God, so you had your duties in production? You basically, at what point did you know was official that you're on doors?

Randall Jahnson 2:04:43
Well, I did. So we have that you had all these meetings. We were having all these meetings. And I kept wondering, Well, where are we you know, and we a lot of talk, a lot of discussion. A check. Well, nobody was saying anything. Yeah. So then we met again at a meeting. We had a meeting at 20th Century Fox and the reason why we were there was because we were in the in the office of a screenwriter named Tom Rickman. Tom Rickman is a wonderful, wonderful guy and a wonderful screenwriter. And he had written Coal Miner's Daughter, Michael Apted directed, they had originally gone to Tom to see if he wanted to write the doors movie of which he declined. He just, he just didn't want to get into that. That rat's nest, I guess, or whatever it was hornet's nest. But he agreed to be a board as to mentor, anyone who did step in to do it. So in other words, Tom was there for backup in case you know, whoever stepped into it failed. So he wanted to meet me then. And so we all convened at his office and 20th Century Fox, and so so it was Tom, were the surviving doors myself, Sasha. And I remember, they had ordered out lunch and everybody was brought in the sandwiches and zoo were all sitting around eating sandwiches, and there was a lot of banter going back and forth and discussion. And they kept asking me certain things about the movie or out, you know, what, how I saw certain things and what was important and what wasn't. And I kept, like, figuring out what, what, and finally I just find out, I just looked at Sasha. And I said, Look, do I have the job? I remember him just kind of grinning up. And he said, Yeah, you have the job.

Scott Mcmahon 2:06:35
That was your job. Like, my age and my man. Oh,

Randall Jahnson 2:06:43
my God. And that's, that's when at that moment, then it was just like, I frickin couldn't believe it, man. Because then it was like, I, I had run the gauntlet. I had beat the odds. I was, you know, having lunch with legends. And I was on a studio lot. And it was the dream. It was the dream. You know, it was just an amazing feeling.

Scott Mcmahon 2:07:08
When you got that moment when he gave you the smile a nod. Internally, were you just how quickly were able to focus back on to the task at hand which is like Well, here's the vision the movie because inside us be like, a holy shit. This is actually happening. Like this has actually happened. Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 2:07:24
I mean, you're you're doing somersaults inside. Yeah. But try to be cool. Cool. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Cool. I'm into it

Scott Mcmahon 2:07:42
well, it goes outside, but that door keeps flying.

Randall Jahnson 2:07:47
No, no. Yeah, this is it. So yeah, it was like, but I remember getting out of there and just like, Oh my God, who do I call first? I mean, it was like so well, who do you call? I think I called my agent I called Rick and Carol young guests and I said, I got the job and they just like, Are you kidding? Are you sure you Sure? And they said they told me they only got the job. And sure enough, it was you know, consummated shortly after that. I called Jude to thank her for really going to bat for me because she she really also it wasn't just all me she had influence with the studio of course and cuz she was still the executive in charge of the project. So she went to bat for me as well. And Jeeves, I think I called I don't know I call my parents and I you know, it's all blur a blur at this point, but it was just, I just

Scott Mcmahon 2:08:41
chose this is still a payphone Oh, yeah.

Randall Jahnson 2:08:46
I waited till I got home. But you know, this was this was at six but this was the drag though is that I got the gig and then dudes was in production was going into production. So like, I want to be there on the set, but I got it. I have to start going to work. Right away. Yeah. Fortunately, they were shooting dudes in LA in LA locations before they went off to Arizona. Okay, so I was able to, to go down the set in LA a couple of times. And I was dating this girl who worked for SST records at the time. Nice. Punk Rock. Yeah, yeah. She was a little skate punk. Nice. And she was tough man, Karen Nicks. And she was a photographer as well, and a really actually very good writer. And anyway, I took her to the set of dudes and we were I remember being then fully started, started trying to pick up on her. I was gonna

Scott Mcmahon 2:09:52
ask you, Ryder down there. I'm assuming that you see you lost her to one of the rockstars punks.

Randall Jahnson 2:09:59
Fleet was You know,

Alex Ferrari 2:10:02
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 2:10:11
Chili peppers were just starting to Yeah. They were they were still very underground. They were, you know, they were the opening band for more established bands in LA at that time. But, you know, flea was a known commodity because of his, his playing with a fear. Yeah. You know, for even though it was a short stint, and then, and he was just a well known guy on that whole scene. So, yeah, but Fli was after Cara that. That was pretty funny. But yeah, so then, then Sasha told me, he said, basically, take a couple of weeks to research and then go and write the script.

Scott Mcmahon 2:10:57
Okay, so where do you start?

Randall Jahnson 2:11:01
Well, I started by interviewing, you know, the door, the doors themselves, you know, you go right straight to the horse's mouth in this particular case. And that was a, an array, Robbie, and John and I interviewed them collectively. And then I interviewed them individually, as well, because it's a little bit of corroborative Yeah, kind of witnesses and and that that I found it was sometimes they wouldn't be more frank, if they were if the others weren't around especially Densmore would really open up and the other two weren't around. So it became very apparent to me. Oh, and then Rothschild was also the gem of have an interview. And he was really my, my head. We're, yeah, we're doing really, really well. I guess you can take that empty. Yeah, I'm not gonna suck anymore. No,

Scott Mcmahon 2:12:02
I games. Another one, I think.

Randall Jahnson 2:12:04
Okay. Yeah. I'm just been talking to him tonight. I know. Yeah. , so So ray, t. Densmore, Rothschild. It was, yeah. My first or second session with him. It was like, wow, I felt like I was still being auditioned to a certain degree. Yeah. Because a lot of these guys now now, even though I was on board, and sanctioned, yeah, had the blessing. Now, it's still I sort of had to prove myself. And in, in a sense, I mean, these were the guys who were the guardians of the, the faith, keepers of the faith. And so therefore, I had to further prove myself in a sense, so that's where I started doing a lot more research and really asking the right questions, really thinking ahead of time before I would speak, it wasn't just trying to, you know, talk out on my end, what was Joe really like? Yeah. Blow, can you tell me some good drugs, stories and stuff like that, and, but, but really try to get to the meat of the matter. But it became very apparent to me. After my first round of interviews, that the public persona of Jim Morrison was one thing, the private one was an entirely different, right, so that there was in other words, there was a whole lot of stuff that had never been discussed, never been talked about never been delved into whatsoever. And that it was not, this was not a particular case of where I was going to be able to take a couple of weeks to research and then go and write the movie. Because the deeper the more and more I got into it, the deeper and deeper I felt it was, and it was going to take some real work and some heavy lifting and Rothschild. Rothschild, you know, told me at one point, he said, Look, you're gonna, you know, the, the key to it is, is finding, you know, what, what made Jim so angry, what was the core? What was the, the, the source of his angst?

Scott Mcmahon 2:14:17
And did you ask him, Where do I go to fight?

Randall Jahnson 2:14:20
Well, he offered it up, okay, me. So. And he said that, he said, Jim came to him a couple of times with a problem and asked Paul's advice about what to do about it. And the, it would it was related to a particular function. And, and Paul said, you know, look into this because he said, I think this might provide some, you know, answers to Jim's angst.

Scott Mcmahon 2:14:57
So let's back up real quick. For me. It's like we have Ray the keyboard earnest Yes, we have. Paul is

Randall Jahnson 2:15:05
rape, Raymond's Eric is the keyboardist right Robby Krieger is the guitarist right for John Densmore is the drummer right. And then Paul Rothschild produced thank all of the doors albums except la woman. Okay. Okay. So that's where he he if he was done as really in one sense sort of was Jim. After the soft parade, he couldn't, he didn't. He heard some of the demo tapes for. We're not even they weren't even demo tapes. He attended a couple of band rehearsals for where they had the new material working on and he heard writers on the storm which he said it sounded like cocktail music to him. It was boring. He didn't say he didn't like it. Thank you. So that's what was interesting. There. So but Rothschild, was the elder statesman in a sense of the band. Ron Paul was a few years older than even man's Eric immens. Eric was definitely the elder statesman of the band. You know, Robin, and John were like, 2122. Yeah. And Ray was 2728 years old when the doors really kicked in. Ray was born in 1939. Ray had been in the Army Ray was in graduate school for film school when he was at UCLA. He wasn't an undergrad. I know when

Scott Mcmahon 2:16:34
the film came out. I ever heard read statements, he was just upset like, because he's felt like the movie sort of portrayed him as like kind of a whiner. You know,

Randall Jahnson 2:16:45
it's like, yeah, well, Ray had a lot of issues about V and

Scott Mcmahon 2:16:50
the jump ahead, but yeah, remember? Yeah, that mean as you know, outsider

Randall Jahnson 2:16:54
Yeah, there there were a lot of I re did not get along with Oliver from what I understand. I can't say that okay, you know, but I they did not see eye to eye. And it was interesting too, because Ray was very tight with Danny Sugarman. And Danny Sugarman ended up being very tight with Oliver. So you would think there would have been some sort of synchronicity there, but there wasn't apparently there was a lot of friction between Oliver and Ray. And Ray did not like you know, how the movie handled a lot of the stuff and so and so went on record again, and again, really just say no bad movie bad, bad portrait, etc, etc. all over again. Oliver likes to get sensational with stuff and but he's and he's the man not lacking in opinions. Yeah. And so And nor nor the guts to express them. So he's, you know, he was going to make his own movie one way or another.

Scott Mcmahon 2:17:53
So let's back up real quick. So you, you go on this, this journey, your own journey now that you've entered the portal of Jim Morrison's world who was exactly it was that Yeah, and I don't know if you, you may check out just last week, Jimmy Fallon, that this Jim Morrison person he did. He does this thing where you he takes famous like musicians that he does imitations of like, Paul. I'm sorry. Who's it? Neil Young. Yeah. But he's, he had like Jim Morrison the doors like his makeup make believe ban, but they were he would just sing the songs. But the lyrics are just nonsense, but he was he was basically reading like, the Reading Rainbow. You know, the, you know, good night moon. So it's like, children's songs done. And it is uncanny how much he sounds like Jimbo more. Yeah. And so it's online. It's you can easily find it, like a quick YouTube search. And it's just to see him just going like rooting rainbow. Indian rubber. Yeah. It's like the way he sees it. And like the whole band is like for your show, but just just as a little tongue in cheek. Sure. Pretty funny. But as you go down this journey, yeah. And what you thought was a couple of weeks how big of a fan was Sasha of the music? Or was he just more of a business pragmatic person that's, I'm gonna buy into this and then

Randall Jahnson 2:19:22
that's an interesting question, because Sasha would tell me on more than one occasion, how he got into this whole thing in which was that he had been had been in New York. Sasha was married at the time to one of the Efrain sisters, Amy Ephron, who's a very prolific novelist now, but she's the younger sister of Delia and the other AirFrance. There's a lot of them.

Alex Ferrari 2:19:55
But we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 2:20:06
He had been living in New York at the time. And he said that or prior to all this, he said that he had been out partying all night long or something. And he was coming back from some all night thing and was driving across a particular bridge and the sun was coming up in New York, and I think he said the end came up. Right on right on time. Yeah, right on cue. And he said, that was just like, a salient moment. For him. He had never really heard it, I guess, you know, Sasha had been, I think it was in the Israeli army was in the seven days war and 67, or whatever. So I mean, he was just this was not a, he wasn't, in other words, he wasn't in LA or San Francisco drinking the FlowerPower wine, you know, he was in an entirely different place, much like Oliver Stone was, you know, he was an Oliver was in, in Southeast Asia is in Vietnam. And when the doors were really happening stateside. So anyway, he just said that this was just a huge moment for him. And he just he got from that point on, he became obsessed about the band, and he had made all this money in software. And he just went out and bought, literally just bought his way onto into this, the strategic piece of

the producing puzzle of the producing puzzle. Fascinating. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, it really,

I mean, I was very interested in and I mean, it was effective, because boy, he was he instantly made himself a player. Yeah. Now he had bought it a couple of years before, you know, but he'd laid the money down and then did it. It was it was a smart thing.

Scott Mcmahon 2:21:53
So then, now you've, you're exploring, you're going wow, it almost sounds crazy. But you could have like, written a book biography, because all the legwork that you've done to do the research,

Randall Jahnson 2:22:06
Yeah, I accumulated I think I have about 50 hours of interviews, you know, on on tape, and, you know, I mean, it's, I mean, it's it's everyone, all the doors, you know, Rothchild. Jac, Holzman around Elektra Records. Got it. I mean, I mean, there were characters, you know, babe Hill. I've babe Hill was Jim's trusted drinking buddy in the latter part of his career. Nobody knew where babe Hill was. When I got on board. No, and a lot of people didn't want to know, I wanted to know because I wanted to interview him. Yeah. But everyone was, was afraid of baby because baby was kind of this biker guy. And he was in pretty tight with some, I guess, some real heavy friends. Right? Robbie had did not want to have anything to do with him. He's and I mean, Rothschilds just said, Jesus, you know, the last time I saw a baby at a he had a hunting rifle on was shooting it, you know, off of, you know, my backyard, you know, up in the Hollywood Hills, just like crazy all these crazy stories about baby but nobody knew how to get a hold of them. And, you know, Ray and all those guys didn't, they didn't know. So how did you do it? Well, I I wish I could take total credit for it. But I couldn't. Tom Rickman had a very resourceful secretary at the time named Francesca and Francesca did a little bit of sleuthing, which was we had heard that babe was in the grips union work in the film business and he was a grip. So she called the grip union headquarters. Wherever that number is, yeah.

And then they said, Well, you got to talk to moose. So moose was like, this guy named moose was the head of the grips at MGM. So she called up moose and he said, Oh, yeah, well, babe, you know you can find babe at this bar. I forget the name of it now. She it's only been 26 years. Yeah. That was literally across the street from MGM, the old MGM lot in Culver City. And he said, He's there every day about four o'clock. So you know, just buying some Jack Daniels. Like, okay, so, Francesca relays this information to me, she said, I think I found them or at least Nunnery where you can find them.

Scott Mcmahon 2:24:44
So you kind of go solo on these things. It's not like you have a team that says like, you have your own little team that says like, I'll find this setup this interview for you. It's you going Hello?

Randall Jahnson 2:24:55
Yep, that's exactly what remember there's no internet. No cell phone. That's fine. But, you know, it's an entirely different landscape.

Scott Mcmahon 2:25:04
What an event?

Randall Jahnson 2:25:04
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So she gave me the name of the bar, new dress. And I went down there on a particular day about four o'clock in the afternoon.

Scott Mcmahon 2:25:15
Now set the scene here. You in this bar? Did you fit in? Or were you

Randall Jahnson 2:25:20
totally No, this was a real this was this was a drinking mansbach.

Scott Mcmahon 2:25:28
So what were you wearing? Well,

Randall Jahnson 2:25:32
certainly not going to dress up for the occasion, you know, jeans and a T shirt, and it's probably wearing my black Doc Martin Doc Martens at the time. It was a little horseshoe counter of a bar really small. Gosh, I can't remember the name of it. I probably got it somewhere in my notes. Three or four professionals at the bar drinking, you know, four o'clock on a weekday afternoon. And I think I got there first. I think I was there staking it out, and went in in order to order the beer. And you know, honestly, boy, I haven't really thought about this in a long time. It might have been that moose conveyed a message to bait.

Scott Mcmahon 2:26:24
Like, hey, this guy's like, yeah, yeah.

Randall Jahnson 2:26:27
And and I think the message came back something like Go tell that guy to go fuck himself or something like that. Their usual. Yeah. Or, or it was like, you know, meet me at this bar at that at such and such, you know, just do different responses. Yeah, I know. Honestly, it's been that long, and I can't remember. But let me just say that, you know, for the record, I entered the establishment with a certain amount of trepidation. But sure enough, baby came in. And I took a seat next to him and say, Hey, babe, I'm Randall. And you know, I'm writing this. Yeah, the movie

Scott Mcmahon 2:27:12
now hard horse. How hard was it to say, Hey, babe, I

Randall Jahnson 2:27:19
haven't really thought of it. I guess well, it would have been worse if I'd said, Hey, babe, I'm Randy. If we were in England, that would have been an entirely different subtext. And, you know, he just he didn't really want to talk i At first, I remember him being Sutton's taken somewhat aback. So which leads me to believe now actually, that he was I caught him a little off guard, he wasn't sure that I was going to be there or something. So he, but I remember him saying, kind of, you know, being standoffish at first, but I didn't. Back away. I knew this was like, I have to get this is my job. Yeah. And he finally said, Well buy me some whiskey. And we'll talk. And so we ended up drinking, he drank a lot of whiskey and having a, you know, we talked for probably an hour and a half, two hours there at that bar, initially. And then, again, like I was talking about before, whether it's, it's kind of like these hurdles, or the, you know, this gauntlet, you have to go through, I cleared it with him. So, therefore, then I was able to go the next level, which was okay. We'll meet again, and yeah, we'll get into it. Okay, I see what you're doing. No, no. So it was like, the outer circle, right. And we're, we'll get into the meat of the map. Now,

Scott Mcmahon 2:28:47
let me so when you get hired on the job, again, as a life of a writer, you know, you're paid in a sort of like a freelancer, you're paid in these chunks. There's not like a regular paycheck. It's literally like, here's a bit of money. And here's another bit of your paid

Randall Jahnson 2:29:01
at increments, and usually the way it worked at that time, you get paid, you know, half upfront, and you'll get paid the half the second half upon delivery of your first draft. And there's usually yeah, there's there's a usually some leftover for another pass and possibly a Polish, right, you know, but basically, you get a very large sum upfront, and then you get another large sum after you deliver a first draft and what can happen in in between that, you know, it can be a long time, and it was in my case a long time.

Scott Mcmahon 2:29:36
Yeah, I was gonna think like, because you're on this project or like, okay, he's asking you buy him some whiskey, you're like, Okay, money is like yeah, they're paying me to this. I'll buy this whiskey for you, you now makes the second you enter that circle and and yeah, and the stuff that he was telling you, like, like

Alex Ferrari 2:29:57
we'll be right back after a word from our spot. Sir and now back to the show

Scott Mcmahon 2:30:07
for you personally, it was just more like were you finding moments of like, oh wow. Oh wow like just your head spinning in a sense that you were like, like story points or just just sheer pure human interest

Randall Jahnson 2:30:19
it's more of the latter. I mean I don't recall you really just going holy goobers you know this. This is the most amazing stuff I've ever heard. It wasn't anything quite like that a lot of the a lot of the stories had already been kicked about, you know, that people were aware of them at least as a rumor or something, but I don't I don't remember. You know, having really earth shattering stuff coming out from Babe and I actually I think I might have been a little disappointed in babe, actually and then more subs hoping you had Yeah, okay. But basically Babe. Babe was was just a good guy. Babe was unlike Jim. And a lot of gyms old film school crew. Babe was kind of the anti intellectual. And in a sense, Bade kind of kept it real. I got that for him, you know? And that babe was probably more loyal than almost any and all of those friends. But babe, wasn't Jim's intellectual. On his level, he would listen and he would tolerate it and kind of stuff like that. But basically, he would watch gyms back and he would call bullshit. Yeah, Jim in you know, in gym knew that. Babe was real. He wasn't just sort of somebody who was fawning all over him. And that was pretty much the case too, with with the other guys that were that they were pretty close in that in that little knit, close knit group, which was included Paul Ferrara, who I never interviewed, and Franklin Leandro who I did interview. Those were Jim's old friends from film school. And those guys were really tight knit, you know, for for a period of time. And so they did a lot of partying together a lot of drinking together and alone, you know, that stuff, but But yeah, you know, but what was happening, though, is that I would interview all these different people, and they not none, none of them really got along with one another. And they, you know, headed two different directions, you know. And so what happened is that I just had this it was amassing all this information, though. And none of it jived food, none of it was sort of coalescing. Yeah. Anything. And it was like a classic case of that, you know, the blind men touching the elephant. Yes. Thinking that, oh, I really have the knowledge of what Jim Morrison was all about. But you know, he's got his hand on the Tusk, that somebody else is holding on to the tail, right. And all that and, and they, neither one of them really knew.

Scott Mcmahon 2:33:11
Right, right.

Randall Jahnson 2:33:13
So fast. It was, yeah. And so it was it was scary. Then, because I had to pull it all together.

Scott Mcmahon 2:33:19
Like yeah, like you realize now it's real, like all the honeymoons over now. It's this word right. Now, how many years? Or how long did it take you to get the first draft to them?

Randall Jahnson 2:33:30
I spent all of 1986 working

Scott Mcmahon 2:33:32
on one year. Yeah. When you're free starting writing.

Randall Jahnson 2:33:36
I got I think I got the job in like February, March, something like that. And yeah, and so then I started researching and then writing and holy crap, you know, I just got, and I was funny, too. I was. I was 27 years old. Same age. Jimbo was when he died. drove a Mustang. I had a Mustang. Jim drove a Mustang. I was living in West Hollywood, which is literally around the corner from from where Jim used to crash at Pamela's apart apartment on Norton Avenue. I was on lived on Sweetser and just up from Santa Monica Boulevard. And so I was literally around the corner from his his universe, which was basically the corner of the intersection of Santa Monica and La Cienega. Yeah, because the doors offices were right there. The LTC anago Hotel Motel was there. Elektra was just down the street. There were buttons, Barney's, Beanery, and a few other locales that are now long gone, but that was really kind of the center of his universe. And so it was it was a little interesting, you know, living living there at that time, and you know, and writing about it. This was when I was First on onboard on it, and then and I, it was it was odd. Yeah, it was really kind of a sort of a strange thing. But I couldn't work at home a lot of times because there was noise in the apartment. I had a roommate at the time. And yeah, and it was just, it was a lot of it was distracting. So I moved around a lot. And I actually came down to the, came home to Carlsbad and wrote a lot of it down, there was a stand with my parents. Just to get away, well, just to get away and I got really sick. Also, I got Oh, I got a it sounds worse than it was. But if I had mono hepatitis, which just waylaid me. It's actually a more benign form of hepatitis, then you would, yeah, but it sounds worse than than it really actually was. But it was it. I mean, I was wasted for a long time. And I literally couldn't get out of bed. And here it was, I had the most felt like the the job of a lifetime. And I couldn't, I couldn't, you know, so I wasn't laying there in bed, and too sick to even sit up straight. But I remember just envisioning in my head it was laying there with this fever or these, oh, these aches or whatever. I would just go over it again. And again, in my head, like one scene after the next how I would see the movie. Yeah, you know, and it just formed it from based on all the interviews and stuff and just just envisioned it one thing after another after another after another as far as far as I could. So you're still working. I'm still working but literally not write writing.

Scott Mcmahon 2:36:49
Yeah. Which is fine. It's mean they talk about that. And they said the other podcast I listened to with Jeff Goldsmith, like creative, screenwriting magazine, but now he has his own podcast called the q&a. And a lot of the screenwriters he's talked to they talk about this, this technique that they use, which is they need their naptime. The Coen Brothers talked about that where they just have a nap, which is that that weird state of in between when you're about to fall asleep and in awake, and all sudden, somehow it just cleanses your your thoughts. And like, what you're trying to work on comes clear in that weird moment of bright before sleep or coming out of sleep. So you were lucky enough to be induced with the this sickness that you are, like, constantly like that. every waking hour, but

Randall Jahnson 2:37:39
Well, there's Yeah, I mean, but yeah, it is interesting. There was there's a lot of truth to that. And to that sort of state between waking and waking, conscious. Ness, yeah. Asleep. But it was nevertheless, you know, I was I moved around a lot. I went up to Idlewild up in the mountains above you know, Palm Springs there. And some friends of mine had a known it wasn't friends. Yes, it was friends of friends. And I rented a little a frame cabin for like, three weeks or a month and wrote up there like a real writer. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then then I was down on my parents place and then then I got some office space. This is really bizarre to there's just all these really weird things that happen but I have this office space that I rented for a while and a big barn like building in West Hollywood. It was an old old historical building. I think it had been a silent film studio or something like that. But had been all divided up subdivided inside and so there were all these different little cubicles and, and things within it. And somebody I a friend of a friend had office space there and they were going to be gone and so I could go in there and work. So I was there working late one night. You and I had my all my stuff out at doors tapes, I had a little this is again the day of cassettes. I had a little portable cassette player and I had all my doors tapes and I had a briefcase full of stuff. And I had a whole stack of photographs of that I'd taken on the set of dudes that were in this briefcase and everything. And I was really tired at one point. So I went out and I got a bite to eat over around the corner and like at Hugo's or someplace and I and I came back came upstairs into this into this place and it was pretty big and dark, you know and others and and we have this just this little light around my little cubby right? It's working

Alex Ferrari 2:39:59
we'll be right back. back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 2:40:08
And I came in and I sat down, and I noticed that some of my stuff did look like the way I had left it. You know, and it was weird as a kid. I don't remember these things. Well, something was off it. There was some papers on the floor or something was something was in disarray. Something was it wasn't quite right. Then I heard something in the back. What the hell is this? So I go back? No, I had been told that there was there's this comedian rich. Paul, hot, rich Hall rich hall itself. Yeah. had also had space there. And he would occasionally come in late at night and work around. So I thought it might have been him. So I was oh, let's go. And I'll go and say hello, maybe. So go on the back. And here's this guy stooped over, and going through a bunch of stuff. And I come in, I say, hey, and he's, and he looks up and he says, Oh, hello. And he has this kind of affected English accent of some sort is very, very odd. And he had this retro, like, 50s suit on and a fedora hat. Literally. Yeah. And I thought, well, this isn't it definitely isn't rich Hall. Yeah. And so I said, Who are you? And I said you work for it was a production company that actually was do you work for such and such? And, and he's, he said something? He said some weird answer. That was like neither yes or no. And I thought, This isn't right. Yeah. So we chatted a little bit more and he was like, really just like, iron me and like, it was very, really, really kind of weird. He stood up, you know, and I was like, there's this is something's really not right. You're inside. Yeah. Yeah. So I said, Look, your spidey senses. Yeah, my spidey sense was up, you know. And so I said, like, Gee, do you know? I don't mean to be out of line here. But I missing I'm missing some stuff that was on my desk. Be here. And he said, Oh, really? What was that? And I said some tape some doors, tapes and stuff. Oh, I liked the doors. He's really kind of creepy. I liked the doors. Oh, boy. This is okay. My spidey senses. Really, ya know, and I was thinking, geez, what do I do? And I kept thinking I can I can take them I can take, but I thought also this guy is just weird enough that he's got like a switchblade or some kind of weird thing in there. So I kind of made my exit segway to back backed away from him. I went over to my cubicle, and I called the cops and, and I said, I got a, you know, as a, there's a burglary, and they said, Okay, you know, blah, blah. And they said, they put me on hold. And then they finally came back. And he said, so when it had happened, I said, it's happening. Now he's in the building. She sees in the building, why don't you tell us? So, I mean, they both and then this guy was he heard me and he bolted. He pulled it out of the place and went running with my pieces of my briefcase. Yeah, ever and, and boy, the cops were there fast. I got down on the street. And then I had to put my hands up because they thought I was the guy and I said, No, I'm the guy who called this is the you know, and so they had a helicopter overhead. This is not LAPD, but this is West Hollywood. So it was Sheriff's Department. And they were there very, very quickly. And then people from the production company called later on and I told him what happened and because there have been other things that have been taken, and so what happened is, you know, I lost this guy absconded with a bunch of my doors, cassettes, not not Unfortunately, nothing that could not be replaced, except that he took my grandfather's briefcase which was something that I was you know, very proudly thought was cool. Yeah, gold satchel looking kind of a briefcase. And there might have been some notes or something but he also all the photographs I'd taken out on the set which the happy ending though I found the negatives too many years later, like after I moved up here actually interesting. And I found them you know, that's one of the advantages of moving is that you find a lot of stuff so I got those reprinted and actually they're on my my website now. So anyway, but that was just, they never found the guy and actually many like said Couple months, like six months later, I got a phone call. And they had found the briefcase and they had found and stuff, but it was just deteriorate. He had stashed it under the steps or some bushes there on the on the compound and had been rained on and deteriorated and all that stuff. But they had found that there was still some stuff in it that, you know, I was able to salvage a little bit of but still the good stuff was gone. And anyhow, that was just kind of, sort of typical of what was going on. I you know, I remember coming home one day after working, you know, interviewing people, and I was just exhausted and my head was swimming. And I, you know, I didn't know if I was making any progress at all. And I and I literally, like lay down to take that nap. And my head hit the pillow and the phone rang. And I picked it up and I said hello. And he said, Randy Johnson. Yes, blah, blah, blah here. I won't say who it was because he's actually a very successful director now. But he was an actor at the time aspiring actor. And he said, I hear your writing the the doors movie. I said, are and he said he announced his name. Like we were all buddies. And I said hi. And good, I think. And he. He said, Well, I understand you're writing the doors movie. And I say, yeah. Well, listen, you know, we got to get together because, you know, I'm a huge doors fan. And I'm, I'm the guy to play Jim. And I said, well, listen, man, you know, thanks. But there's not even a script yet. It's a little premature. I mean, I haven't even written finished the script yet. And, frankly, you know, when it comes down to casting, I'm not gonna I'm gonna be lucky to even if they even asked me, you know, my opinion. And so I knew I somehow I, you know, I got off the Line. He called me up a couple. One other time, in literally, it was the same kind of circumstances. Middle, the afternoon, I was like trying to take a nap. And he was he says, I'm tripping. I'm tripping. Man, I'm tripping. And I said, Well, good for you. And he said, listen, he said, You got to know this. He said, The I had a dream last night. And guess who came to me in my dream? She, I wonder, he said, Jim Morrison. He came to me in the dream. And he said, I'm the guy to play him in the movie. So we have got to get together, man, we've got to get together. Dude, you know, don't call me when you're high. But now he's a successful director. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I won't say who it was. But but this was just kind of the nutty, bizarre circumstances that were, you know, just in the midst of all this and where I was trying really hard just to get through my find my way through it all. And yeah, and I could. And so, you know, again, back to your whole thing. Could I have written a book? Yeah. I think in one sense, after I was off the project that I had all this all this, all these interviews, and it was very, I thought, I nobody's nobody's gonna want to read a book about and then subsequently, you know, I mean, for like, every six months, there was a new Jim Morrison biography that was coming out, I'm just sort of kick myself for not doing it.

Scott Mcmahon 2:48:40
There's, you know, the reason I brought that up is because I remember hearing this interview with another, another screenwriter, and they were talking about this other famous, I don't remember her name, but they were asking her like, hey, you know, if you would ever were approached with this particular project again, and would you, you know, write it the same way or write this project? She was she was her response, I remember was something like, like, hell no, because I would write, I would write the book, I read the play, I write the movie, basically, mindset was like, I would figure out a way to milk it. Yeah, it's in all different facets, you know, and like her life lesson as what she learned after being a writer for so many years. Like, so that's what I thought about it, too. It's like, wait a minute, holy cow. You know, I just had to ask you, just because I remember that little, little snippet from

Randall Jahnson 2:49:30
well, some of this stuff. I'm actually I think, going to attempt in the large article about it, you know, at some point, because I think there is enough stuff that in here that's kind of actually worth looking at in terms of a screenwriters approach to a daunting project and that my kind of like my whole trip my whole journey on this was, it was it was something Yeah, it's something I I earned some stripes on this one, I think Yeah, it's cool.

Alex Ferrari 2:50:02
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 2:50:11
I think we will wrap it up here because I think we can go into the next next. I love it because we can go the next one, we talked about the final release of dudes, we can talk about coming into this as Exactly. This is fantastic. Believe me, I, I'm gonna be honest with you. I, I lost a lot of podcasts. And I said with a lot of screenwriters, and they do like a lot of the interviews they do with screenwriters. Even though I love what Jeff Goldsmith does, they served as he only has like an hour and a half to really kind of gloss over somebody's career. So the advantage that we have here is, I get to ask these questions. I know, I'm just like, fan like anybody else going? Like, how much would that be? Like, if you had that moment, or like, Oh, my God, I'm on the job. You know, it's like, or, like, I can't believe this is so surreal that that I'm working with the doors, the doors, and then like you, but you got to step back or like now it's this work, I got to just figure it out. And just talking about the little things about writing about like, you know, you realize you're, you're you're doing a service, because you're just trying to get the story. But there comes a time sometimes where you I guess you're you have to ask yourself, like, what kind of story do I want to see? Or like, what is it? You know what I mean? That was that little ounce of personal reward out of it? Especially when you're writing all these, you know, sort of pseudo auto autobiographies?

Randall Jahnson 2:51:36
Well, in that auto biographies, I'm sorry, yeah, in bio pics, or whatever. But in this particular case, the more I got into it, and the more information I began to uncover, and collect, the more and more it fueled my, my passion for it, let's say, it became my crusade, I got a degree to, to, in a sense, blow the whistle on the bullshit that had circulated about him for so many years. And and in the very least, try to tell attempt to tell some truth about him. But at the same time, that was my undoing on the project. And so we'll leave it at that there was much conflict to come. Okay, because it was not smooth sailing.

Scott Mcmahon 2:52:33
Okay, well let you know where and I remember when we finally saw the film, I think it was in senior high school. Yeah. It was a big, big deal for my buddies. And I had to go see this movie. So you know, because it was a big like event. So anyway, well, when

Randall Jahnson 2:52:48
I was in the, in the South Pacific earlier, in this year, in March, there was a I met a gentleman who was a politician and serving in the Parliament of the island Kingdom chain of Vanuatu. And he found out that I wrote the tours, and he just, he, he said, I saw it in college. This was in Australia, but he grew up and has returned to Vanuatu, out there in the Deep South Pacific. And he said, Oh, man, he's that I'm so glad to meet you. So you really gotta write. And so it never ceases to amaze me how powerful, you know, film, and pop culture is really, you know, it's so far reaching, you know, there's not a point in the globe anymore, where it just doesn't go

Scott Mcmahon 2:53:38
it is the greatest export that the United States has. Yeah. And it will change. It will change. I mean, it will change worlds, because, you know, doesn't matter how I mean, the culture of these young people and all the all these subtle other countries. I mean, not to say Western eyes it but there is this romance idea of I think what these western movies, so that hits a psyche amongst, you know, the rest of the world. Yeah, and I think that is sort of sometimes becomes the root of, you know, revolution and how we were bombed. I mean, we were attacked 911 Because of the stupid things of like, they're, they're reciting, you know, Britney Spears, like, how could you have your women dress like this? Right. You know, it's like, sure. We were so like, what? That was the reason? Yeah, but they go there anyway. Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 2:54:32
Well, thanks for asking the questions. And thanks for giving me the opportunity actually, to get into this in a certain amount of depth. Yeah, no, I just doesn't, you know, again, if this were any other interview, it would be

Scott Mcmahon 2:54:42
glossed over. Yeah, and then it's like, Okay, you're right. But yeah, soundbites. Now, this is good. I mean, I'm enjoying it. It's like uncovering and, and all this kind of stuff. Now, it gives me those thoughts like when we should write a story about your adventure writing this stuff. I don't Oh, that Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 2:55:01
I think that's in the works here at some point. I'm yeah.

Scott Mcmahon 2:55:04
See, we're like we're scratching the surface here. All right. Yeah. Well, here we are. I'm sure I got some good stuff.

Randall Jahnson 2:55:11
Thanks, Scott. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Scott Mcmahon 2:55:12
Thank you guys. Thank you.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 309: How I Sold My Project to Netflix with Ferdinando Cito Filomarino

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:12
I'd like to welcome to the show, Ferdinando Cito Filomarino.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 0:18
Hello, thank you for having me.

Alex Ferrari 0:20
Thank you so much. I'm glad I did not massacre it too badly. But thank you so much for being on the show, my friend, I really appreciate you coming on you, we're gonna get deep into the weeds on your new film Beckett, which I absolutely adored. That's coming up on Netflix soon. But before we even get into that, how did you get started in the film business?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 0:43
I Well, it's this question is specific, because it's how I got started in the business. Because I guess as a small premise, I always decided I would say from the age of this the beginning of reason about 1112 when you start having ideas, even though they're ridiculous at that age, because they're just a little kid, I had decided that I wanted to make movies somehow. So then, you know, I, you know, I went to high school and and everything. And then I went to the University in Italy, we don't really have, we have a couple of film schools, but at the university or college, the film programs are just our film studies. So you watch films, you read books, and you, you know, analyze them and stuff like that. It's not about the filmmaking process. So I did that. And then after that, I was by the, you know, by then I was 21. And I was desperate for film sets. Because I had been so many years, just imagining I want to make this movie and that movie, and I love these movies for these reasons. And okay, let's study film history, because I love it. So it's fine. But you know, I was interested in filmmaking. So then, all of this, all these years fueled the absolute obsession with which I looked for a film job first, when I got when I graduated from university, looking for jobs as an ad, basically, as an assistant director on anything. I look in Italy, which is difficult also in Italy. I mean, Italy has a pretty healthy production, but not you know, if you compare it to America, for sure, there are many less, many fewer films produced. But I also looked in the UK because at the time my girlfriend lived there, so I could crash at her place. I had friends, I just I did everything I could. And I landed my first job as a as an assistant director on a film by Richard Eyre called the other man. And on that, and I had, I had no experience on film sets at all. So it was funny because they, the film had kind of an Italian mini section to it, which is I think, why they hired me. Although ironically, even though they went to shoot it in Milan, which is my hometown, they didn't bring me there, because it was too expensive. In the UK part of the shoot, although the only reason they hired me was I was Italian. I basically I had no skills except enthusiasm. So they just like Alright, so I don't know, hold this ladder while the gaffer works on that window. And this my first days were literally like this, just sort of, I don't know what what you could do just do that. Make this coffee. And I was, of course, miles away from the director. And the cat asked, I did red light and Bell, which is in the UK, they do this thing where before shoot in some productions, at least before shooting you you ring a bell three times and red light flashes. So everyone knows they're shooting, and they keep quiet and hold the work. I did that. So that was my first experience in my way into the business. Although and actually, it was a very important experience because I was so unimportant and I had so zero responsibilities although by the end, they did allow me to bring the cast to set and stuff like that. Which was Liam Neeson and Antonio Banderas and Laura Linney. I should say so pretty cool. Yeah. For that in that position. I got to know what everyone did on set. as a as a guy who doesn't, you know, I just Of course, there was so many people I knew about the heads of department from my film studies, but not what like the prop master. I wasn't sure what a prop master did then. So you know, that would come in handy Mark very handy later when I had my first group on my first short film, but then I got back to Milan which is my hometown. I think At the same time, Luca Guadagnino was coming to Milan to his movie I am love. And he was looking for people to, to collaborate with him and to help him understand some things of the city of fight certain types of locations and find people to be in the film that wouldn't be actors, but that would be people from the world he was portrayed in the film. And because of I was looking for work, and he was looking for such a person, we found each other through mutual connections and, and I did that film, and that was a completely different experience. And I got to work very closely with him and got to know his working method really closely. And all his collaborators to which eventually became also my collaborators, some of them anyway. So that was and that meeting with him and and with his producing partner, Marco Morabito would turn out to be life changing in some ways, because, aside from personal relationships, what happened is, I wrote an idea for a short film after that movie was over. And I showed it to Luca, we showed it to Marco. And the two of them said, like, this is great, we want to produce it. And, of course, I was so happy, and then it took a year and a half of work.

Alex Ferrari 6:20
You mean, you mean to tell me that? You mean to tell me it didn't happen overnight, they didn't just write a check. And then you were shooting the next week,

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 6:25
three weeks later, we were shooting? You know, it was a it was a long journey. Also, I was right. Right. It was a little ambitious. And what I wanted to do with the actors were obviously it was very conceived to be in one location, a villa with just like a car scene outside of it. So something that would make sense, but I, I, my ambition was to work with great actors. And even with writing, I already had an idea of who I wanted to approach for those roles. And they were important actors in Europe and in, in France and in Italy. But, you know, and that's what all that time, you know, took, but between finding financing. And you know, I still have some debts from that, by the way. I do really?

Alex Ferrari 7:16
I'm sure you do.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 7:17
And coming around to those actors, which eventually, you know, embraced the project and did it. That took a while. And that was my first. You know, I did I did video stuff beforehand, it was a video maker, I did stuff for the internet, stuff for hire small, silly things, but that I would I will consider that short film, which is called darky, my first piece of work as a filmmaker, for cinema, let's say. And that. So I guess that's how I got into the business the answer a very long.

Alex Ferrari 7:49
Fair enough. Now, when you made your first short film, what was the biggest lesson you learned on that? Because you must have been being bombarded with lessons on a daily basis during that year and a half, and even through production, and afterwards. So what's the biggest thing you learned making that first film?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 8:06
Well, something that I happened to me, I have to say naturally was over preparing. And one big lesson I learned is it's never enough. All that time that all that hardship that I learned, not during the making, but I guess during the development is, you know, be ready to be sad all the time, and depressed, and feel like it's never gonna work out. And if people say no, and then they are even worse, they say yes. And then they change their mind and to say no, and, you know, especially looking for funding. But, you know, by the time it got to set all that time had passed, I hadn't thought about every inch of this short film, how I wanted to shoot it, how I wanted the performances to be in everything. But all that preparation, I realized, a, you know, I understood, first of all, something that is pretty obvious, which is the amazing luck of working with big performance, because I could have envisioned everything. But then the most beautiful thing is when one of the actors like really girl who is a very natural actor who goes by very much by his own instinct and intuition, everything that he came up with, I could not have envisioned was gone. But to go back to what I was saying earlier, there's still so many unexpected things that happen when you're actually shooting something and just even, even like this example, also, the things that come out of collaborators and actors. There's not no limit to how much you can bring in and then still be surprised I and then also There's no limit to how much you can prepare and still feel unprepared on the day. Because because of the unexpected, and so, you know, that was a, I guess, a hard a hard lesson to learn. But what one, you know, I listen, I learned even later in making my first feature, and then eventually my second is the importance of sleep. I learned that on my short film, I did not learn that because I basically did not sleep for the whole six days of shooting, because I was excited because I was worrying about everything. And you know, on day five, I literally walked into my hotel room and I fainted it to sleep. But I because I hadn't felt I hadn't slept all day, because it felt I had more important things to do than sleep, I have to think about tomorrow to go over the shots I envisioned and you know, prepare. But that was a mistake. And I learned only later the importance of you know, shutting down and actually falling asleep and letting sleep do its work as well.

Alex Ferrari 11:10
Absolutely. No, trust me, I completely understand. And as you get older you realize about sleep. Because when you're young when you're young, you think

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 11:18
you could do anything? Yeah, yeah, I was a little young when I started with that did that short film? So of course, I couldn't even physically do that now.

Alex Ferrari 11:29
Yes, me too. No, did you know so when you went to your when you went on on day one with your, with your short film, I do this all the time. And especially when I was first starting out, I really did this. I showed up. And I showed my first ad and my dp the shots, the shot list for the day, at least for the first half of the day. And I would show up with like, you know, 175. And then the and then the season First, the first ad in the season dp would go, that's nice. What do you want to cut? Did you did you do that? Or do you kind of show up with a bunch of like, you know, I always like to overshoot. So I always prepare like 30 or 40 shots? Well, knowing that I'll get 10 of them. If I'm lucky that day, but at least I have that just in case there is where things are moving, things are going quick. And then I kind of get what I want. Is that the way you approach that first,

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 12:22
I'm at probably out of enthusiasm. I didn't have more than was feasible because of course, I didn't have the experience to know what would be feasible, for sure. However, in general, I have to say my approach is different. And I tend to do the opposite. And try to think more about how less shots can do the trick, though, actually. I mean, it depends also on what the what the film is and what the story requires. In terms of pace, for example, that was a blight. You know, that short film had to do with something that was burning slow and and under occurring and building tension. You know, it wasn't action packed or anything. And it was about the hidden part of a relationship between two friends that say, and the tension that was there. And then it sort of bursts for a moment. So you know, I didn't think I would need fast cutting anything, you know. So in that sense, I have to say, even though I may have over over, you know, overestimated, it will be good shoot, I don't have that tendency. I didn't have that tendency on that or on my first film, but rather, I guess the difficulty of the shots that I came up with whether you know, they were realistically

Alex Ferrari 13:46
feasible,

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 13:47
or not. That was a pain and yeah, and it's all of this is gonna be covered in rain. And then we'll have the rain out the window and the lecture. Yeah, we can't or that there's just one guy spraying water on the window. Right? Right.

Alex Ferrari 14:02
Yeah, in the in the, in the directors imagination, you have rainmakers you've got you know, rain all over the place, you've got the wide shot, you've got lights for a mile down, so you can get these full view shots. And it ends up with it ends up with a grip with a hose on a window.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 14:19
That's exactly how it actually works. We couldn't have the hose because it wasn't the second floor. So it was literally breaking

Alex Ferrari 14:27
some pork ribs outside which Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now how did you how did you leverage the short film into your first feature film because that's a lot of filmmakers are trying to figure out getting their first short film and how they can leverage that to get access to making an actual feature.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 14:47
I am afraid I did not think that much ahead. Look, I had an idea for a short film, which was an idea, a concept and therefore would work For a short film, I actually am generally, you know, what I love about movies is something to do with creating a world and creating a narrative and then challenging that narrative and challenging the experience of watching the movie. So it kinda is about features. So this idea I had had, was not, was never really going to work for a future it was, it was something that would work for something limited in time. So in that sense, I just kind of conceived that project as it was as a as a any idea. I mean, I'll tell you, without getting into the story, that concept was also seeing as if it was a piece of a bigger film. But the only very important piece of it, you know, so you see those two people driving in the car, and they're, they've obviously done something before. And then something is obviously gonna happen later. But you've seen the most important piece. And that's it, that fragment of sorts, like dream, really, where you can't really remember what was before, and you can't really remember what happened after, but this is the important bit of the dream. So in that sense, I guess in terms of long lead projects, I did not think ahead that way. I thought, this is cool for a short film, let's make it the best way we can. And then, and then I actually I was writing a feature, which had absolutely nothing to do with this, which was going to be epic, obviously, obviously epic, obviously, to epic. And so when I realized how difficult that was to finance this short film, and then eventually how difficult it would be to finance that feature, which was to epic. Talking with my producers about this conundrum, then then this other idea came along to make what actually became my first feature, which was something smaller, more manageable.

Alex Ferrari 17:03
Yeah. And then, with the success of that, how did you get involved with Beckett? I mean, because that's a fairly big jump from where you were, to an F to an A to an action movie with a major major up and coming star if not already a star, as well. And yeah, Oscar Oscar winner, with Elisa there. And I mean, it's just amazing. So how did you get involved with Beckett?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 17:28
Look up. First of all, I should specify that it depends the perspective. But my first feature was, you know, it had a beautiful festival run won awards. Got some very nice reviews. But you know, it only got distributed in Italy. It wasn't an N on and on movie internationally. But you know, it was it was a tiny film, it was a very nice thing. So it comes into play. But it's not I would say because of, well, I guess you can be the judge of that. I'll tell you how I think it comes into play. Because actually Beckett and the genre of Beckett, which, let's say is sort of a dramatic manhunt thriller, something I have always wanted to play with. Something I have always loved in movies ever since I was a little kid. In fact, you know what my the first filmmaker I ever loved very much was was Brian De Palma. When manhunt manhunt aside, the way he deals with genre and different ones that that would such a personal point of view. And such warm and and dramatic characters, was something that always inspired me from the get go. And then I guess that inspiration, I applied for manhunt, literature, but also movies. And so I always knew I wanted to make a movie in those in that round, let's say. But obviously, it was going to be something more ambitious. And that could not have been something made as a first feature, or at least the way I envisioned it the way I wanted, you know, to create a worldwide wide enough to contain something as strong as I would like it to be. But so you know, what happened is I concede this story based on on what I loved and what I wanted to make more personal than mine. also adding something that would be that would feel fresh today in the genre, because of course, we have seen many mahound films. But I like the idea of trying to make something new as I'm sure everyone does. After an after finding my angle, you know, we approached these actors. And, you know, the first thing that happens is they react to what's on the page. JOHN David liked what he read. He liked the idea that this character was completely unusual for the job. Right. And it was a dramatic character, a man who was going through a personal crisis, and it was completely unfit to be, you know, experiencing what happens in the film, and definitely not your typical hero per se, not skilled as a hero of these types of films. And then I guess what my first feature, you know, when he read that we sent him my first feature, just, you know, this is the guy who conceived the movie and is gonna direct it. And then we had our meeting. And when we had our meeting, the first 15 minutes, john David spoke about my first feature, because he loved it. I love this, I love that I love that performance. And he spoke about that scene in the beginning. And I think that it was an amazing icebreaker, of course, because that movie was so different, you know, it was a portrait of a poet from the 1930s. But yet he could connect to something on there. That was that had to do with the portrayal of character, which, of course, would come into play in our conversation in Beckett, because actually, Beckett is a dramatic character. And so in some ways, there was something there, I guess, to argue similarities, at least an approach, then, of course, genre would be different. So, you know, I like to think that that first feature I did, even though john David would not have seen it unless we'd sent it to him in the context of reading Beckett, it helped our relationship, our dialogue, maybe even his belief in me, you know, so it did come into play in that sense.

Alex Ferrari 21:35
And then, so you just basically sent the script out to john, David's people, he read it, he liked it, he met with you. At that point, then you started looking for financing, or was Netflix attached? How did that work?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 21:49
No, Netflix was not attached. We we financed the film completely independently with the hard work of, of my producers. It was in tandem, you know, we were we were shopping the movie to financier's and simultaneously casting. And then of course, when john David decided to make the movie that that was, it started to become a very specific package that we could have. And then eventually, we managed to finance it actually with mostly European money, a lot of Italian money, and a slice of Brazilian money. And then we made the film completely independently. And then Netflix picked it up once we'd finished it as a distributor.

Alex Ferrari 22:30
Interesting. So then, one thing I've always found, I found issues going through my journeys in Hollywood, especially when I was coming up is when you do one genre like you did with your first movie, which was much more character based. And you want to jump genre to essentially a dramatic action film, you know, because there's a lot a lot of stunts a lot of actions. A lot of times, especially if you're just the director, they say, Oh, well, he has no directing. He has no skill, and he has never shot action before. How can we give him millions of dollars to shoot an action. But the big difference with you is that you were also the creator behind this. So you kind of had to like if you want the movie you got to bring me along for the ride. Is that how it worked? And did you did you come into those walls? Did you hit those walls?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 23:14
Well, no, no, you're absolutely right. I had gone ask the question, why? Many times? Why you made the poet movie? Why do you want to do this? What's the problem with doing I love poets. I love artists, I thought that movie had a reason to exist. Because it was interesting to me to see, you know, there aren't that many movies about poets and I thought it would be interesting to make a movie about poetry and the creative process of a poet. And I also find it interesting to make a manhunt film with a very dramatic character that center why why can't that be? And I'm a kind of expert in that genre, even though I've never shot it before. And I like the idea of with my perspective, finding my angle through it, you know, and then on the script I wanted to collaborate it with with some someone American, especially because of my background and my European perspective. I like the idea because of course, we were playing with genre tropes that mostly belong to American cinema, even though not exclusively, but mostly. I like that are two different perspectives with Kevin rice, who eventually became the screenwriter on the film. You know, that collaboration, that formula? So I got asked that question a lot. And my answer was always look, I mean, someone even suggested Oh, and then we'll have a great second unit your actions. Right? And I'm like, No, I want to shoot back and see.

Alex Ferrari 24:49
That's the fun part.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 24:50
I mean, I mean, of course they're pro look at we called amazing stunt. I sent an amazing stone cord and a tour and stuff performance to Help us in the movie that, of course. But why in conceiving the action, no, I want I want to consider the action I want to, I want to decide how to shoot it, and tailor it on what this character is the specificity of this character who by the way happens to be it not a, you know, a trained killer. And on this story on my tone on my locations, which informs so much of what the tone of the film is, so yeah, I got asked that question a lot. And it's always the argument is, look, I, you know, I find this story to be interesting, both because of this characters perspective, but also, you know, because of the genre, I love the genre I want, I want to find my way into it. And it was sometimes it took hard convincing, and sometimes probably, it was not convincing.

Alex Ferrari 25:51
But you gotta but you got it in you got done. Yeah,

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 25:53
yeah. And independently, that's what's interesting, you know, the look, we did go around with, of course, the problem, aside from the genre to is, I had only one feature,

Alex Ferrari 26:08
one dramatic feature one dramatically dramatic feature. Yeah.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 26:11
So of course, it was gonna be hard. But then, you know, yeah, we got it done. It was it was a lot of it was a lot of hard work. And, of course, having the the producers that I had as a team behind me, both, because, you know, they're, they're amazing. credibility, but also, because of sheer work. You know, finding the right people to talk to and proposing it correctly. Setting up are very difficult meetings in which I got asked those weird questions. Yeah, so it was, it was all of those things. And, you know, for example, another example of that, what you ask is, oh, and then then you could get an amazing dp who's has a lot of experience and action. And I'm like, again, no, I love to work with my dp who shot my first movie, he's my favorite dp in independent cinema, he's the best. Even though he has not action, he has not shot x, oh, that's

Alex Ferrari 27:16
always a tough pill

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 27:18
to find our action language that is ours. And, you know,

Alex Ferrari 27:25
approach and what I love about and I was telling you this before we started the conversation, was I love the approach to the action in this film, it was so unAmerican in so many ways, which, which you can, I mean, I'm a connoisseur of cinema, obviously. So when I was watching it, I was like, Oh, this is so fresh, you can obviously tell this as a European director, this is not an American director in the best sense of the word because just the the focus on character, I felt john David throughout the piece, as opposed to just like some sort of puppet action, you know, 80s character who just go without any depth, there was so much depth, so much emotion, so much pain, in the action, and in that character that was so wonderful, and just how you shot the action was was raw. And it felt like a constant roller coaster like you were you You didn't give up. You didn't give others very moment, there was very few moments of break. You were just like you just on this thing. And like when you held on you got a hold of the audience, you didn't let go, which I loved. I love that about the action.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 28:31
Well, I find that to be again, I guess, depending on the kind of movie you want to make, there is a What is your focus? And in many movies, I guess, that are more or less thrillers or action thrillers, spectacle is important. And and as such, it sucks away, I guess from other aspects of work can be explored. And in my case, I definitely wanted spectacle and the sense of adventure of the genre to be there. But I wanted to only get there through this character. Because I found that, you know, having him be so specific, so unequipped for this experience, going through everything that he's going through, aside from the experience with his own personal crisis, found that that approach to this arrival at the spectacle would be, I guess what unique we have to offer. And of course, this is enabled, aside from, you know, conceiving it and planning it by the amazing performance of john David. So, you know, one thing is, is you say, all right, so he decides he wants to, he's running away from danger, he wants to steal that bike. And I guess in a movie, which focuses on spectacle, he steals the bike, any speed through the streets, avoiding all sorts of dangers and gets away in this movie, it does not go that way at all. Because what, you know, you try to steal a scooter from an angry Greek person who's going to do something very important, I want to see how that goes you as an average person, and I like the idea even of playing around with this concept of, first of all, challenging the probe. And second, really thinking about how would it go for this character, and not just for the sake of, you know, the spectacle, and again, doing what has been already well covered? Now, that I guess that this this angle, then informed of course, how the action took place, right? And then and then therefore, how its shot. As a consequence,

Alex Ferrari 30:52
if you are exactly in it, and you can tell that you you did not lead with spectacle, though there is spectacle in the film, no question. But it did not lead with that. And that's so wonderful about it. Now, I was and I was telling this to my wife, and we were watching it. I'm like, I think john David's in every single scene, isn't he? There's not one scene he's not it's pretty much every scene he's in. Yeah, yeah. So that must have been brutal for him as an ad like he's, there's not a break.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 31:20
I joke with him, I joke with him that he actually ran much more than Beckett, because he had to do takes

Alex Ferrari 31:27
on it and do it once. And I love and I love about him that you've given you gave him throughout his journey, things that would slow him down injuries. And, you know, all these kind of things that I equate with john McClane walking on barefooted on class in diehard Yeah, that you gave him a bunch of that you didn't have to because it was tough enough, but you added that extra level of stress to the character, which I thought was wonderful was just a nice little touch. Well, I

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 31:57
think this actually has to do with with, as Quentin Tarantino would say it, I guess, delivering the goods of the genre. I'm quoting something I remember him talking about Reservoir Dogs, I guess. Because he's he the way he was presenting it, I remember and then stop referencing him was, it's a heist film where you don't see the heist, but I still want to deliver the goods and the excitement of that kind of film. Okay, and reference. I get the point to me, you know, the great beauty and enjoyment of seeing a great Mannheim thriller, is it the kind of road movie, you know, there's, you know, you have to escape, and therefore, you cover ground, and therefore, ground landscape locations. They're very important. And so in that sense, of course, okay. So, he, he becomes the danger arise, and he decides he wants to go to the US Embassy, which happens to be not where he is at all. Now. Basically, in a film like this, and with this premise, the landscape can change the story, because if there's one highway connecting him to the embassy, it's one story, if there's five mountains, Four Rivers, seven trains, and, you know, a bunch of protesters, it's a different story, you know. So, that becomes part of the movie. So I would, I would consider it, I guess, more than a touch actually, part of the flesh of the film. And I will tell you that when I was driving around mainland Greece, where I wanted to set the film, looking for locations, I sometimes even saw something that was so striking that it was kind of backwards compatibility, like, Okay, so this is great. Let's adapt the scene so that it would work with this location, because he goes through here, then, you know, this happens as a consequence, and he it stays with him for the rest of the film. And in that sense, the land itself became a part of the movie, and I thought that was important for this type of movie, for that sense of adventure and spectacle.

Alex Ferrari 34:23
Yeah, of course. Now, do you have any advice for directing actors? Because, I mean, you have some amazing performances and Beckett. Well,

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 34:34
I look I am a little obsessive. So I like to do a lot of research and collect material for myself, thinking about the characters and how, you know, both in the writing process, but then also thinking about how to make them alive. And and I like to share that material with with the actors. I work with. That said, I would say my advice for for filmmakers who are starting out is be absolutely open to the instinct and the quality specific to that actor. Because maybe sometimes when younger filmmakers come with so much, so many ideas, and so much excitement about, oh, this character has to be like this. And like that, may very well be if you're the absolute master of, you know, filmmaking. But in many cases, that's not true. And in fact, something like I was saying earlier in our conversation that the actor might come out with with instinct, or, or reacting to the material you share, or, or just from their own baggage. And it's something that you may not have imagined is much richer and more useful at the end of the day to the performance that you seek. So and that actually works differently from actor to actor. So I guess, one has to have knee one needs that sensibility of understanding what is the level of dialogue and exchange or even how much you sort of want to give an actor or how much does another type of actor not want to receive very much and want to kind of do their own thing that is difficult to master, I guess, when you're starting out. Finding that sensibility of of calibrating how you work with whom I you know, at least that's how I do it. I know, people are different actors have different personalities and different methods for sure. So I always come with my baggage and my preparation and the material I like to share and then see what happens and calibrate accordingly, according to what happens next, you know, and then be open to their instinct and everything that they can enrich. Now,

Alex Ferrari 36:57
what was the toughest day that you had on set? What was the toughest production day? Like, you're like, Oh, my God, this is not gonna, we're not gonna make it. There's always a day like that. We're not gonna make it. It's not good attitude. Okay, how can how can we? How can we make it without without me dying? No, I'm joking.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 37:18
I'll tell you, I'll tell you the most obvious answer first. And we have obviously, there's a big, there's two scenes. One that is a rally a political rally, yeah, where a politician is going to speak, and then late, and then stuff happens. And then later, that rally has turned into a riot. Okay, so these are two scenes that are set in the same square. We were lucky enough that basically, the the municipality of Athens allowed us to shoot in syntagma Square, the Parliament Square, which is where what, you know, when they do rallies, they walk from areas of Athens, they join up, and they arrive in the Parliament Square. That's how it happens. In reality, it happens to be humongous. No movie could ever cover it entirely, because it's too big. However, they said, you can shoot there. And okay, luxury, amazing, beautiful, but you have only one day. Okay. So, you know, it would be one thing to have one scene to shoot, but we had two, and they were different. So I you know, that was the toughest day on the most obvious terms of what a tough day is. Because, you know, of course, we have to plan everything. Of course, there were unexpected things. And we just had to deliver so much storytelling, and also show so much stuff going on. Plot moments also, that's near the end of the film. So there's a lot going on. Not why. But there's also all these people Durango. But there's also the problem of even though we had a lot of extras, there was also 97% of the square was empty. Now it didn't look it. It didn't look it but yeah, well that's the thing. Yeah, find the angle. But then Okay, so that angle works. But then you have to go all the way there to shoot that scene. And then we had to go all the way up there to shoot that other moment. And so it was a nightmare. You know? It

Alex Ferrari 39:23
Yeah. And then there's a big difference in production design from a rally to a riot. As far as just dying, the sets and all that stuff. So like once you you're like okay, did we get everything for the rally? Okay, now let's start breaking everything apart. Let's start setting some fires. Let's start, you know, putting some debris down, because you can't go back. After you got one day you can't go back once you start once you've let that go. It's gone.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 39:46
No, one thing we did manage to to, which is kind of funny if you know it when you watch the film, but I'll say it anyway is we did manage to go back to shoot a couple of sites. blocks, which means basically that we shot, we shot the square scenes, and then there was like a moment that's only on a sidewalk, and all the characters are looking into the square to this amazing drama that's happening. And actually, it was just full of traffic, like every day, you know, does it. So you got you went to snack. And that's the extent that we managed to sort of, do get some feedback. But you know, the bulk of it, we shot on that day, and it was it was intense, you know, every 20 minutes, we had to move into something else. Or we, you know, the scene would would be missing plot points. Right, that wouldn't leave anything behind them, there was no plan, no possible Plan B.

Alex Ferrari 40:40
Now, what was it like, collaborating with john David as as a as a collaborator, as an actor? I mean, he, it's a pretty intense relationship, you guys must have had to do a film like this, since he's in every scene, it's action, you're in a foreign land and all this kind of stuff? how did how was that collaboration?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 41:00
It was beautiful. I think the first, you know, referencing, again, that first meeting that we had about the film, we had a great conversation there. And I think we understood that we were in sync, about our taste. And the idea of playing with genre, he loves genre cinema as well, very much. And he liked this idea of approaching it from this odd angle with this odd character. So that informed a lot of our first conversation, and then eventually our working relationship. Because with this exciting understanding that started our dialogue, it was all a nice sort of exploration hunt for ways to best express it. So again, I had I had a bunch of material that I shared with him a bunch of movies that I wanted to show him, and then he would react to those, and we'd had beautiful, long conversations about why that was interesting what we can take from that, what we should not take from that. And so that was I would say that was the most important part of creating that character, or at least I guess, informing that our working relationship leading to that performance. And then we did so much of that beforehand, that by the time we got to set we have short standing, we had a library of references to get to if we needed to like, oh, remember that moment from that movie that you liked for that? And that reason? Yeah, let's think of that. Or, or, you know, we talked a lot about the relationship that Beckett has with his girlfriend, April in the film, and the meaning of that relationship. And because the two characters are so different from each other, and yet, they are completely in love. And that, of course, because of what happens at the beginning of the film becomes important in the movie inside of Beckett throughout the rest of the story. What's going on, in his personal crisis, and you know, it was it was again, shorthand and easy to go back and reference that. And the thing about john, David is, is that he is obsessive, extremely passionate, and a master minimalist in many ways. So that we had this baggage, we had this dialogue, and then he would just go with his instinct. And that's when I got to sit back and enjoy. Without everything we talked about, it all sort of went away and disappeared. And then he went, he came out with his talent and his instinct, and then whatever we wanted to change, it was again, it was just like, oh, remember that thing we said about the relationship that she wished she could be? But then, you know, that's lost. And he thinks about it now. Just like 10 seconds conversation, it references a whole world that we already discussed beforehand. And we were able to have this complicity, which was, you know, a privileged and gold to me, also, you know, gave me confidence in and in the everyday production. Yeah. Now, the

Alex Ferrari 44:25
one thing I want to just kind of put a little spotlight on what you just said is, a lot of times first time directors or young directors don't realize how important collaborating with your lead actors are. And they come in with their, their ego, their way of doing it and they're very kind of concrete about, I want my character to do this, this and this, and they block and they just kind of disregard what the actor who's playing that character brings to the table and only through working with actors, you understand that the magic you hire Because of their bringing their magic to them to this character, so I'm sure that Beckett was, was created once on the page. But then once john David came in, and then both of you started working together, it became what we see. And it wasn't just all your way along, and all the great directors do that, because that's the way it should be. Right? Well, that's how it becomes better. You can take credit, and you could take credit for it as a director. I'm joking. Oh, yeah, of course, of course. I'm joking. I'm joking. The

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 45:30
point is exactly. I mean, my mind is limited to be in one mind. I conceived the project, I put together pieces, but you know, it is only through collaborators who each have their own job is obviously much better than me, come contribute with their ideas. And this is, of course, most important with actors who define very much the final temperature of the movie. The the soul of a movie in some ways. And that's, that's kind of why I think when you hear when you reading about film history and stuff, you're like, oh, and then this actor was going to play in that movie. But then, you know, he couldn't. And then this other actor played, and you're like, I can't imagine that. Because it's because that, you know, the actor, establishes, I think, the beating heart of the movie, or the soul of the movie, depending on how spiritual You are so much, that no matter how much you conceived around him, and inside him, that talent, and that baggage that inevitably an actor is, you know, Bertolucci always said, any feature fiction movie is, at the end of the day, a documentary about the actors, you know, because they're actors, and they act, but at the end of the day, there are these humans who go who are able to go places and deliver what the what the story needs. And you know, and and you can't plan all of that. Is it possible is silly. And if you did, it would be probably very shallow. You know, very, and it is an actor's qualities and definitely with john David, I got lucky. That that make whatever character is at play that real deep, and, you know, in this case, relatable, warm and strong at the same time.

Alex Ferrari 47:35
Now, when is a Beckett available for everyone to see this Friday, the 13th of August? Okay, very quick. And I tell ya, it's, it's a fantastically lucky day, I think you'll do fine. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all my guests. What advice do you wish you would have gotten at the beginning of your career?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 48:03
I think, absolutely without boundaries, but then also revise with critical editorial mind, you know, to find the essence of what needed to say, you know, when you're when you're when it's so it's so expensive and difficult to make films that you know, when you're starting out, and you it's difficult to get any scene made, it's costly and everything and then you cut stuff, and it's on the cutting room floor, and you're like, Jesus had you know, if I'd known that I would have shot, you know, the other stuff. So, and, and it's impossible. I mean, you can't you don't you can't get there, but aspire to that, I guess that quality. And then of course, sleep

Alex Ferrari 48:55
sleeps, sleep, sleep sleep? And would that be the advice you would give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? Or would it? Would that be some other advice?

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 49:05
Well, I mean, look, it's it would be a mistake, I think to say to give the advice of thinking practically. Like, you know, come up with something that you can make. That's not too crazy. I think that's wrong. I think one should follow absolutely their instinct and their need to tell stories. Why do you even want to make this in the first place? That reason is what should inform every single decision you make, including how ambitious to project it, how ambitious the project is, how big it is. And then of course, you just have to be a realist and come with critical mind and understand how you can tailor it, let's say so, you know, I guess it's a more complicated piece of advice, but that's how I feel I should have you know, if I known that more efficiently. I would have been maybe faster to put things together.

Alex Ferrari 50:06
Very good. Now three of your favorite films of all time.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 50:11
I like that you say three of my favorite things. Yes. It's not the favorite three necessarily.

Alex Ferrari 50:16
No, it's the three that come of currently as you as we speak today.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 50:21
Well, I would like to, at least with one or two reference stuff that inspired me for this film, which remain among my favorite films of all time, and one is Three Days of the Condor by Pollock, wonderful film. And other is manhunt by Fritz Lang, based on an amazing novel by Jeffrey household called rogue male in the film of the novel are different, but both are masterpieces. for different reasons, and the film is amazing. It's called man hunt two words. And then what can I say? Something more recent. In reference to the amazing composer, I got to work with the viewer which is like a motto I will say. I'm sure to your surprise Snake Eyes. by Brian Alma.

Alex Ferrari 51:21
Yeah, I don't remember snake. Yeah. Oh, God, the opening sequence. Just the way that camera? No, I

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 51:27
just say it because I know in America, it's like, oh, that movie with that kind of with the crazy Nicolas Cage that are that? No, I love that movie. And he is perfect in it. He's a you know that the character is crazy.

Alex Ferrari 51:41
Listen, Nicolas Cage is a national treasure. And that has to be stated currently. I mean, I don't care what anyone says Nicolas Cage is a national treasure. Without question ain't paid. We're absolutely on the same page. I can watch his early performances, his crazy performances, his subtle performances. He's a national treasure.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 51:59
I enjoyed the night guys. Absolutely. This This, this, again, speaking about infusing genre with a personal touch. And with a drama, which you do not expect. Because you do not expect that when you walk into Snake Eyes, you will expect spectacle. And on a grand scale, but but then you're like, you're surprised to be touched and moved and then more spectacle?

Alex Ferrari 52:28
Well, when you can, when you can combine spectacle with character and emotion, well, then you have a hit. That's where some of the biggest, you know, some of the biggest blockbusters, Titanic, I mean, for God's sakes, and those kind of films that have that you're able to do the spectacle, but there's an emotional core that people attached to. That's why when you see these movies that come out of Hollywood, sometimes they're all spectacle. And then the executives are like, why didn't it make money and like because you get no heart in and it's not as just because you can, you can write you can blow up, you can destroy the world 100 times we've seen it 100 times. And it's not cool just to see that spectacle anymore. It has to be story. If you don't have story, you don't have character, you have something to hold on to. It's just empty. And in today's world, my God, we're bombarded with so much stuff, that when you you want that attached. And I think that is I think honestly, it's one of the things I love about Beckett is the connection, the human connection. I think that's what we all thrive for is human connection. And if you can connect to a story on an emotional level, the spectacle is just added cream on top of the cake.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 53:39
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I wish your statement was always true. example, if the example of snake eyes makes it not entirely true, because afraid that was not a hit.

Alex Ferrari 53:52
Oh, no, it's there's always reasons for it not to be a hit. But yeah, but they connect to you emotionally. And I think dipalma we can go for an hour about the poem because I'm a huge dipalma fan as well sisters, and oh my god, and just I mean amazing amount of stuff that he's done. And it's so fascinating that he left Hollywood, he's like, screw Hollywood. I'm just gonna go to Europe and just make movies now the way I want to make them and I'm like, thank God. Because then and that was beautiful. Yeah.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 54:21
Yeah, that made the movie he made in Paris.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
Yo, amazed me. It was stunning. No, no, it was stunning. But this is one thing. I've always I've said this to people on the show as well, privately. It's unfortunate. Some of these amazing directors. They might have a flop or something like that, or they highlight something that doesn't perform well. And then Hollywood takes the keys away from them. Yeah, it's sad. I mean, because I want to see another Peter Weir film. I want to see another Wolfgang Petersen film. You know, want to see these kind of another Brian De Palma film maybe with a little bit more money involved so he can do what he does, and get the take they take the keys away from so I'm so glad that someone like the Paloma I could just go to Europe and just make the movies he wants to make how he wants to make them.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 55:04
I would say that some, you know, it's interesting, this cross pollination between Europe and America, just like it's interesting for some European filmmakers to go work in America, you know, depending on the films they want to make. I think it's under understated undervalued, how much? Sometimes it is, it's interesting that American directors go to Europe, not just because they can't make a film in America, but because the context is different than maybe could be stimulating in a different way. And you know, different things. Go. The taste is like, I think that cross pollination is all you know, I believe in this idea of cinema is all one nation anyway, all of us have their own culture from their own countries. But we all meet in the same land. And I you know, of course, we referenced a lot of American cinema, or British cinema. But I'm also just as much inspired thinking again about Beckett by Hong Kong cinema. Johnny or Johnny Tom movies. Or in Japan, Takashi Mika movies. Yep. So, so at Sure. I mean, I love I love to imagine there will be equity makers in different landscapes.

Alex Ferrari 56:26
And, and we'll end it on this. There's one filmmaker who got to cross pollinate over to America back in the 90s. Was Luke the sun. And he did Yeah. Which he did Leon, which is arguably still one of my favorite action films of all time. And, and I love his version of it actually, not the American version that was called the professional like when he added 15 extra minutes that they cut out because it was too risque. It actually made the story even better. Yeah, I guess that's what I mean with an American director. If you went to Europe, those 15 minutes would be in there, you know, right. And then we file because Lucas on became lupus on that the studio's like, well, maybe we should let him have his Director's Cut. And that came out it was Leon, which was originally the called Leon, but they never thought of that. But the reason why that movie works so beautifully is the emotion. I mean, you're you're crying at the end of an action movie. It's just brilliant. And that is a way

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 57:20
or a character who is most definitely despicable. Killer.

Alex Ferrari 57:25
He's Yeah, he's an but the thing that makes his character so wonderful, is that he's basically, you know, just a he's so loving with his plant. And also, he kills bad people.

Ferdinando Cito Filomarino 57:40
He doesn't go and more importantly, Gary Oldman is much more despicable than him if you have to.

Alex Ferrari 57:45
If you don't have Gary Oldman, then it's hard to root for Leon, because you've got Gary Oldman who is just so overcome whatever performance that was, Oh, God, all right. We can geek out about movies on that. But there's Fernando, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been a pleasure. I wish you continued success back it was is a triumph and and I hope everybody watching Netflix gets a chance to watch it. This Friday, August 13. A very lucky day here in America.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 308: Lessons Learned Writing Oliver Stone’s The Doors with Randall Jahnson

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy this episode with guest host Scott McMahon.

We are at the Highland still house in Oregon City in Oregon City. So Oregon City used to be the original capital of Oregon, before they moved to Salem, but Oregon City was sort of the last city or the city established at the end of the Oregon Trail was

Randall Jahnson 2:27
That is correct. And it was also auspicious in that it was settled by a guy who bailed out of the Hudson's Bay Company, the fur trade, Dr. John McLaughlin, I settled down, put a trading post right at the foot of the Willamette River Falls here, which was the site of a magnificent Native American metropolis, and had been for 1000s, probably 1000s of years. And he just came in his trading post right there at the right in the midst of took a Native American woman for a wife, I believe. His biography is or is His story is one of the things that's on my list to really read about, but it's a fascinating story, but this was back in the 1840s I believe,

Scott Mcmahon 3:23
Well, so it wasn't. Wow. Okay. So I mean, when I think about it, it's like, what was the Oregon Trail was really 1800s was

Randall Jahnson 3:30
and yeah, it started in the 18. Really, in the 1840s. You know, once Oregon, the Oregon territory was established and they the word got out of the very fertile farmland, right and potential of it, it started creating the migration West.

Scott Mcmahon 3:47
You know, it's funny, my I went on a field trip for my daughter, they went to Foster Farms over an Oregon City was one of the first site farms outpost for all the trout, you know, pioneers coming in from the Oregon Trail, and foster, he was successful starting up like a general store on in Boston or something like that. And once he saw that Oregon Territory was opening up, he decided not to take the Oregon Trail, he took a ship with his family, and he took his business and decided to open up another store over here in Oregon, but he took the route of going down the Atlantic, all the way down past the tip of Chile, you know, down there in the Pacific coming all the way up to Pacific so he's ever he took that route all the way. Instead of taking the wagon train, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to establish an option. So he established the farm and like the outposts of where people came through hood, mountain hood, right. So and they would help actually carve out some roads and passages because when I think when people when the pioneers came to Oregon either they're gonna take the Columbia River all the way you know, down or something would take try to get through mountain hood. So those who try to venture and get through Mount Hood, they had to, you know, they get stuck or something like that. So Foster had his people end up, you know, helping them out helping out a lot of pioneers and developing a road there. So they had this outposts and you had the general store there at the farm, he had like a little mini, what he called lodges are in this, you know, where people could stay. So it's like, give us the first sight of civilization for a lot of pioneers after his long journey. And he just made a killing. So they have this farm that you can go to. It's an educational farm, but it's still we're walking through the house, you know, seeing the stuff they use seeing the farm seeing the barn, when it was just comments being made out, there was a lot of the kids so like, you know, really hands on experience, what it could have would have been like as a, you know, a pioneer in the Oregon Trail. Well, so it was a little bit of history that I had no idea about, like, Wow, that's pretty cool. Sure. They have,

Randall Jahnson 6:02
they have a museum over here for the Oregon Trail Museum, which I believe has been shut down now because of lack of funding because of the budget cuts and everything else. But that was one of the things that I've been amused actually, since I moved up here from California that that with The Oregon Trail, that was the the overland route that a lot of people who were heading to the California Gold Rush took Oh, really? Yeah. And so at one point you have the trail diverts you know, and you go go to California. You got to Oregon and great, the great things, you know, I think that was a very interesting dichotomy there were you know, it really underscores the differences between California and Oregon. Now that

Scott Mcmahon 6:56
funny because that's sort of the, what exists today.

Randall Jahnson 6:59
That's my point. That's my point. Exactly.

Scott Mcmahon 7:02
So I'm a little slow.

Randall Jahnson 7:05
Alright, we'll just have another, have another beer there. And you'll you'll catch.

Scott Mcmahon 7:10
It was a great segue. So one of the things I wanted to do with you is like I one of my favorite podcasts is the creative screenwriting podcast hosted by Jeff Goldsmith. And he's now since left as senior editor of creative screaming, scream, creative screen writing magazine. And he started his own podcast called q&a Quick question to answer the jackals myth because he's been really instrumental and, and holding these free screenings down in Los Angeles of just different movies. And at the end of every these free screenings, at the end of every movie, he would have the screenwriters there to like talk for like an hour and a half about the movie, their experience and all that kind of stuff. What a concept actually having a writer. I know, I know. And he's great. And I really enjoy, like, his style of interviewing. And, you know, I can tell like, sometimes he's polite to like some of the people or some of the work that they've done, but inside I could tell like that comic book geek and him once ago, what were you thinking, you know, kind of thing, but he's still very cordial about it. Sure. He actually happened to be in college, my roommate, Dave Jaffe, Jay Jaffe was the creator of God of War, and some of the twists in metal series who I worked with at Sony for many years. So when I met up with Jeff, you know, I introduced myself via that way. So he's very cool, but he's very busy. And again, for anybody who wants to check out his stuff, definitely check out q&a With Jeff Goldsmith are some of the past stuffed on creative screaming at screenwriting magazine. But anyway, this is my chance do my really horrible impersonation of Jeff interviewing you Randall as if like, we just finished a screening and oh, no, and we had this big audience, but right now we're just we have this cool little pub. It's funny, because sidenote, is I normally do my podcasts and a Mars Irish Pub. Yeah. Like, it's good to suggest that for you as well. Yeah. So we go there every other week, my buddy, Frederick and I, and we go down, and he knows everybody there. And so we're, we're regulars there every like every other Monday night, okay. But it's funny that it's an Irish Pub. And here we are crosses away in Oregon City and a Scottish Irish Pub again. So

Randall Jahnson 9:25
they will tell you it's a Scottish pub. There won't be there's not much. Not much Irish here. Okay, good. You know, although I do see the Bank of Ireland. Yeah. You know, but if they had a choice, it would be, you know, basically, it's anti English.

Scott Mcmahon 9:42
And those places are just charming. And it's like old style bar. So anybody who gets up here, yeah, check out these places. Yeah, so we have Mars, Irish Bob and Ella. And we have the hi Lynn. Still Still house here in Oregon City. Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 9:57
Which which, if you're a fan of single Well, scotches

Alex Ferrari 10:02
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 10:11
This has one of the best collections you will find anywhere in arguably even on the entire west coast. So this the, the Mick and his wife, who owned the place are huge Scotch files. And they're just

Scott Mcmahon 10:28
I had to learn more about this. Yeah, I have, I had this innate desire to want to get into.

Randall Jahnson 10:35
Yeah, yeah. Scott, well, there's part of it was my honeymoon in Scotland. And so that's, that's where I started, you know, acquiring the taste. And so it was, it was

Scott Mcmahon 10:47
more of it, you were acquiring you weren't just because now you're married, you're just drinking more?

Randall Jahnson 10:53
Well, I come up for excuses to drink more.

Scott Mcmahon 10:57
I started drinking, I said, Never drink until my daughter was born. Yeah. And then I started to drink a lot more

Randall Jahnson 11:04
weighs upon you heavily. So anyway, being the parent.

Scott Mcmahon 11:09
So I wanted to the first question that Jeff always asked, is, he always wants to know breaking in stories of like, how you got started in the business? Or what was your, like, your first paying job or, you know, how, you know how you broke in?

Randall Jahnson 11:25
Well, I, I went to film school at UCLA. And, and at that time, I entered the film school there in 1979. And you are basically thrown into a little life raft with a bunch of other people don't have the same aspirations to be there be a writer director working in, in the film industry in one way or another. And so you use your

Scott Mcmahon 11:50
quick was that time the late 70s? Like, because I know that this is the very late 70s 79 When I started, but I was wondering if, like the early 80s Was it? I can't remember was there a golden age of like, were everybody wanted to go to film school because I know that there is a kind of a,

Randall Jahnson 12:11
the, the film school sort of Bonanza occurred in the I would say probably the mid 70s. Okay, and, and carried on all through and into the early 80s. And that was basically because George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Ron Howard, they were all products of film school. Right. You know, Francis Coppola, of course. Right. Yeah. And scores, sesame? And, yeah, of course. And so and that was it. I mean, basically, we just covered the film school landscape. At that time, there was three places to go. USC, UCLA, and NYU, right. And for me, I had grown up in the San Diego area. And I couldn't afford going to sc and NYU was just about as far removed from California beach as possible. And I used to go with my dad who worked for the UC system up to see basketball games at UCLA when John Wooden was coaching there. So that was the sort of the natural place to to go to, and it was vastly cheaper than sca and right and, and actually, what I liked about SC, that there were differences in the curriculum at that time, too, which was that if you wanted to be if you if you had a very specific idea of what you wanted to do in the in the film industry, whether you wanted to be a sound editor, or an editor or cinematographer, or director, producer, whatever, you would go to SC because they had very clear tracks, okay, each of those, okay, those specific professions, UCLA, it was much, much looser. And they were kind of had this had sort of the stigma, if you will, of being of creating tours. You know, you were you were the complete filmmaker, in a sense once you came out of UCLA, but the difference another difference was is that you had to fund all your own stuff. After after the basic Super Eight class that occurred when you first entered school. ESEA didn't happen. You had they funded the advanced projects. But you had to compete with other people to get that one or two directing positions, right, that they would do. Anyone could be a director at UCLA if you had the money for it, which to me, it was really like the real world is much more like the real world. Yeah, Coppola came to UCLA, Jim Morrison and Raymond's Erica, the doors were there. Okay. You know, that was in the very early 60s. You know, but I mean, there's you know, Paul names. I knew this would happen, the names start fading from me who wrote the taxi driver. Schrader, Paul Schrader, thank you went to UCLA. And I mean, the list of names is very long and prominent. Right. Right. UCLA is produced and an NSC as well. So

Scott Mcmahon 15:22
you know, when I went to UCSD, and I was looking around, I went to junior college first went to Palomar College right? And the only fame claim to fame we had there was that Phil Tippett was famous visual effects artists from the Star Wars films, and his, you know, all his thoughts.

Randall Jahnson 15:44
I interviewed Phil when I wrote for the Carlsbad journal back in 1970s. Okay, so

Scott Mcmahon 15:48
you know, right, right. So his claim to fame was that he went to that school was great, you know, to your school, you get out your view, then you can transfer anywhere. And then I didn't know where to go. Exactly. And when I looked at San Francisco State, I looked at UC USC, like the UCLA for some reason, I decided at all places to go UCSD, which probably wasn't the best choice for film school, but not to know it was nearby.

Randall Jahnson 16:08
Near near beach,

Scott Mcmahon 16:10
near Beach, definitely, definitely. So the funny thing was, I spent a lot more time when I was there, because the way they had the film track was that everything was really dedicated towards the graduate film students. Right, as an undergrad, you were you didn't really get a chance to, to hands on. Knowing that now, I probably should have gone to maybe like San Diego State, which is much more of a more of a vocational approach to the education. But I spent a lot of time with this graduate film student from UCLA who was doing her thesis or her work down in UCSD. So she had access to all the, you know, the editing Bay's the rooms, and she's trying to finish her thesis. She just needed an assistant. So I was there and I got all this hands on training of how to like, you know, cut film and put all this stuff together. And then she would I would go up with her on a regular basis to UCLA and just I was crushing the courses. I didn't even go to school, but I was at UCLA just sitting in at the Sherm courses. So kind of give me a different perspective of things. Might you say? Like, yeah,

Randall Jahnson 17:12
okay, well, there you go. Well, at that time, again, this is in the late 70s, you know, those were the three places to go. Now, that landscape is vastly different. Every almost every college has a film department or media department, something, something like that. So, I mean, that just shows you how thing, things have changed. So anyway, I went through the film program and at UCLA at that time, they didn't have a or the difference. There was no difference between the undergrad and the graduate

Scott Mcmahon 17:47
programs. Those days.

Randall Jahnson 17:50
Literally, in my, in my second year, there the graduate students rebelled and staged a little demonstration, and really forced the hand of the school to alter the curriculum, in a sense to favor grad students because basically, and and I think they had a legitimate beef they were competing with, you know, freshmen who were new to the, or new to the department for, you know, the limited amount of materials and cameras and things that we had to do their graduate films. And so which were really wasn't fair. So they did an overhaul of the curriculum and my like, are they they didn't do it overnight. It actually happened right after I graduated. So basically, I benefited from having basically had a graduate education as an undergrad. Wow. Okay. So I stuck it out and went an extra year as a as an undergrad. I later yeah. And then they kicked me out, said it's time for you to move on. Yeah, I had maxed out over a unit possible. But knowing that I took every writing class I wanted to do when I first got in there, I wanted, I was hoping to be a director. That was my aspiration. Everybody else, that's what I wanted to do. So they asked, but you, you had to fund your own films. And I didn't have that kind of money. You know? So I realized that well, typing paper was cheap at that point. And I said, Well, shoot, I'm just going to I'm going to write and I'm going to direct my movies on paper. And then eventually, if I get enough clout, I will be able to direct something that I write myself. So that was that was the philosophy that hasn't happened, by the way, but it has happened for a lot of people that I know

Scott Mcmahon 19:41
that you wrote and so I'm a writer when you're younger, too, like you wrote Well, paper as

Randall Jahnson 19:45
a Yeah, I mean, I was I started writing like, as soon as I learned to write, you know, I've just was I had kind of spades where I was very prolific third grade, especially seventh grade was also a big one. We

Alex Ferrari 20:01
will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 20:10
But I initially wanted to be a journalist. I actually wanted to be Cameron Crowe because I loved Rolling Stone and Rob loved music still when I was in high school, that that's what I was aspiring to be was to be like a music journalist of some sort. There was a great writer for Rolling Stone at that point. He I think he's back now writing some stuff for them again, but named Charles M. Young, who did just some fantastic interviews with like, the Sex Pistols and kiss, and I still have those issues, because they, the Ryan is just so, so funny, and insightful and really great and just inspired me a great deal to be to be, you know, and then this was the era to where Tom Wolfe was doing. You know, electric Kool Aid acid test on the heels of that is kind of what is known as the New Journalism, okay, where it was just wasn't real cut and dry. But actually, there was a great deal of reportage going on, and quasi sermonizing that would be worked in by the likes of Charles hem young or the our Gonzo Hunter Thompson, right kind of, you know, people of that sort. It was a, it was an interesting time to be in journalism. And then I wanted to be a magazine freelance magazine writer, I thought, yeah, then I realized I probably really couldn't make a whole lot of money at it. But I and I had started working for my hometown newspaper in Carlsbad, California writing, writing sports for them. And then in the summertime, when I was out of high school and worked into full time work, where I was doing feature articles. So I was interviewing surfers and runners and, and Carlsbad was also site of a motocross scene, seeing out there and doing some reporting on that it was just a lot of it was it was very interesting. And I learned how to interview people at an early age, which was a great thing. Then I knew that I wanted to continue with writing of some sort. But in my studies at school, but I just wasn't sure what kind it was. So I too, went to a community college, mera Costa. Oh, yeah. Just because I was working at the, at the newspaper still, and I was getting an experience there, part time and I thought, well get a couple more years, their experience and then take classes and get my basic education out of the way. And then by that time, maybe I'll know what to do. And I happen to take a playwriting course, and that was very interesting that opened up my eyes to Dramatic Writing. And I and I realized that now, playwriting wasn't quite it for me, but screenwriting Ooh, that sounded very avant garde and very cool. So that's what I

Scott Mcmahon 22:59
use draw like maybe like when the first moments that you like wrote a piece or paragraph or something there's somebody else wrote and you were able to witness sort of a a positive sort of emotional response from it versus like, like a one moment like you wrote something where maybe you felt good about it or somebody else reaction to it was surprising. But you know what I mean, it's just like it it made you want to keep going or, or want more of that or, or feedback

Randall Jahnson 23:36
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I wrote three scripts when I was at UCLA three full length scripts, and they were pretty abysmal. But my instructors were very supportive. I got A's on them Yes, that's right for your Thank you.

Scott Mcmahon 23:57
What do they call Scottish eggs? Yeah, the Scotch Scotch eggs. Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 24:04
And that was initially I think, be studying and doing that to get that kind of thumbs up from them was very positive. Okay, that that made a big impression on me. And then once I got out of school, to have some peers of mine to just kind of comment there's mustard right there and you can dip out to that that was positive but nothing was as strong as getting

Scott Mcmahon 24:47
the kind of the endorsement of a true professional somebody working in the business kind of just mangle this one. This Amanda masher

Randall Jahnson 24:57
All right, there we go.

Scott Mcmahon 25:01
yeah it's good all right yes

Randall Jahnson 25:10
it's funny I'm getting my trains off right now this is really delicious

Scott Mcmahon 25:26
sorry can keep don't worry about this. I pause cut this out this is good or no I mean this is like your interview. Oh, so it's like and the food ma mustard right there. Yeah got something to say.

Randall Jahnson 25:48
Yeah so it's an egg wrapped and sausage and deep fried it's really healthy

Scott Mcmahon 25:58
so is it a boiled egg first and then they put it into like a sausage and they have to pry that I think so yeah

Randall Jahnson 26:11
no it's a great place to be on anytime but I love coming here on when it's howling wind out

Scott Mcmahon 26:28
there you go well, this place is located right by the river falls this like is it the Willamette falls, yeah, Willamette right. So, definitely has a propensity for the wind and the weather changed

Randall Jahnson 26:47
before the paper mill was shut down certain fumes wafting up from from the mill sort of sweetened things. I mean that facetious.

Scott Mcmahon 27:18
So, yeah, so anyway, so can you recall, like, let me backtrack. Do you recall one movie, like, the movie experience you had where you thought yourself? That you were like, moved or inspired to say, Yeah, I want more of this. Or, like, for me as a kid, I remember, you know, movies, or just always sort of part of just growing up. But the first time I remember seeing sort of a, let's say, a more mature, non sort of spectacle movie, you know, that I realized was different than what I had seen before. was one of my parents, I think took me to see Amadeus. Oh, you know, so, I was floored by that movie, because I thought to myself, I just went through something that I'd never thought I would be entertained by. Because I thought I had to have like, you know, laser guns or cowboys or Indian right, or aliens are spaceships or explosions, because that's, you know, that was my appetite. I was second nature. But once I was introduced to a film that was had none of that but engaged in captured my interest. I definitely changed something in me, as well as another film that I wasn't expecting to was somewhere in time. Because I was just like, oh, Superman. But to me, it was like, what was that and I that get that got to me. And so I remember there's two films of all films that sort of changed my perspective. And then I remember having when I got into college, I wasn't thinking about film, I was thinking about studying illustration, and art. I went there for that. But then got sort of a film bug myself, and came across, I had to take a script writing class, he was very, very cheesy. But I remember going to the library at the time, this is before the internet, you actually had to go to the library, we'll check out the reference books. And they had real scripts, and I remember reading ordinary people. And I never seen the film. I just read the screenplay. And I remember just, it was just turning the page after turning the page, because I just had to get through it. But just having that first experience of absorbing what a script looks like, I didn't know what all you know, all the little things meant, you know, what is it all that kind of stuff. We started beginning to figure out little code or the language, but I remember having that significant moment as well. Coming out of that going, what did I just read? What did I just experienced? And I wanted to ask you, did you have anything like that?

Well, I I did as a kid. This was I mean, we're going way back.

Alex Ferrari 29:58
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 30:07
And I really would have to say that I didn't know the impact that would have on me at the time, obviously. But it's really almost now that I look back on those times as they want. Now I understand why I was so moved and influenced by and this is goes back to when we first moved to California. And my parents were running a beach front motel in Oceanside called the buccaneer which was the buccaneer beach, you know, in Oceanside. And it it had all these pirate motifs and everything like that. So my first five years in California after moving from Utah, we're here at the buccaneer motel with all the pirate motifs running around there. And I used to run around there and have a lot of fun in the meet a lot of different people that were staying there. But they would always on the weekends we would go. My parents would take a break, because we lived on the premises, there was no escape probit my parents would go to a drive in movie out in Oceanside. And, and yeah, yeah, and so the the, it's an airfield now. Yeah, it is. And the the, the ritual was basically they would pop their own popcorn ahead of time, put it into a big brown paper market sack. And we would they would take a cooler full of crag monton sodas, and they would put me in pjs, I had two older brothers who were 10 and 12 years older than me. So they didn't want to they were teenagers. By this time, they didn't want to have anything to do with that. So they would just stay at home. But I would go with my parents with them to the drive and and then I would be in my PJs. And they would always hope that I would fall asleep in the backseat. At least that was the plan while they watch these, you know, sometimes very adult movies. And lo and behold, I never fell asleep once because I was so intrigued by what I was seeing. And I can tell exactly what I saw. You know, I saw Bonnie and Clyde. Whoa. Yeah. I think they had intended that I was asleep. They had no idea. And they probably were they were not film savvy at all. They were probably didn't have any idea what they were in store for. But I recall, I recall very clearly, the opening frames are that where you see you know, the naked Faye Dunaway in her. But you know, up there on that big screen, I just my eyes really wide. going, Wow, this is wild. And I was just riveted from that point. And it ends at that time was oh, I can still recall being in the backseat and seeing my parents visibly recoil from the one after they make the one robbery. And the guy comes out and try and stands in front of the car and tries to either seize he's got some kind of a weapon at him and they run them down and he ends up hitting the windshield and and falling off and my parents just like wow, kind of gasping over over the violence of that. And I was like wow. So Bonnie and Clyde So Bonnie and Clyde saw in the heat of the night. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? Wow. Who sir with love. Patent with my dad Planet of the Apes. Then my dad and I started going and seeing Okay, some of these original. I mean, my mom stayed home for some reason I think she wanted to see patent but my dad did and saw Planet of the Apes with him. And these. Now these are the films that I actually harken to my, to my students nowadays to in teaching because I think these were this was a fantastic age of American filmmaking. It was really from that from about 6066 to about 76 That 10 year period produced just astonishingly great American films made by the studios made by the studio crazy. Yeah. And, and ultimately, what killed it, of course, was Jaws, right and the block and blockbuster. From that point on, it changed everything and how studios started doing things. And again, not not to take away from the, you know, the Spielberg's of the world in the in the in the geeks, you know, the film school gigs, which who basically started running the business at that point, which was great. But, you know, prior to that, we still had the godfathers and the conversation and Chinatown and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and five easy pieces. And the last detail the HAL Ashby's Harold and Maude, you know, making these movies, these kinds of movies, and there was just nothing like it. Right. Oh, these are so Little Big Man. You know, you know, these are, these are films that I think still really resonate today hugely in the studio's have sort of lost sight of that, you know, as they were, they were really socially conscience. Conscious in a lot of ways. They push the envelope, and you know, the subject matter was truly adult, the notion of of like, catering to demographics, the pubescent boy, yeah, and action figures and all that unheard of no way. Right? No, he just, you know, just didn't do that. It was still in the days where you had people like Robert Evans, who was running, you know, Paramount, apparently, in between. Yeah, that, you know, he was, he still was somebody who had gut instincts, you know, and can do things that and greenlit stuff that, that you know, that we'll never see, and haven't seen stuff like that you can, the only way to find it now is you know, in the independent realms,

Scott Mcmahon 36:25
what do you think about there's a sort of a article I read a couple years ago about how like HBO and Showtime all these cable network or paper briona cable channels are now providing that sort of fix for adult drama, that word movies. Theatrical movies have just become a sense. tentpole spectacles, you know, either of, you know, the fantasy, sci fi genre, or whatever it is, or then or comedies that are, you know, the grossed out or already, what, what not comedies, you have a little sprinkle of independence, independent films, but the canvas of what's going on in the television spectrum right now, where we have long form where you can develop a character and a law, you know, a much slower pace and more in depth is why you're seeing like the success of like, The Sopranos and, and all these other things. So I don't know whether or not that sort of fulfill the, the, the niche or the need that once was supplied during the late 60s, mid 60s in the 70s. For what the studios were supplying, you know, and now just got fragmented. I don't know, that sort of.

Randall Jahnson 37:39
Yeah, I mean, nowadays, everything has gotten fragmented, it's really broken down. I mean, we've once we entered the digital age, right, everything became fragmented. And that's what digitizing analog does, you know, it breaks things down into these little bits into these little bits, you know, this, whether it's a soundbite, or it's a, you know, it's a bit of information. And that's sort of its job in in one way. And so we we've, but we've lost a lot, you know, in in that at the same time, you know, it's just it's just changed these are this is part of a larger conversation that we'll get into here that the benefits and the curses of the digital the digital world now in digital culture but yeah, I answered your question I would say yes indeed. HBO Showtime, AMC running madmen and stuff they are filling a niche now where so many of us are have a thirst for those great adult dramas, right you know, that deal with touchy material? Not so it's not necessarily high concept material, but it's really important material. Right? You know, I mean, for example, HBO recently doing the they did the You Don't Know Jack, you know, the Jack Kevorkian story. I knew nothing really about Kevorkian other than just seeing the headlines always about them from that. But you know, Pacino really own that role. And Barry Levinson came in and directed it, because it really was a really compelling piece of piece of work. But there was no way a studio would make that with that movie. It has to be HBO and of course, HBO loves to flaunt the fact that only the HBO can do it. You know, and so, so I think it's great. But you know, again, HBO is part of a larger conglomerate, mega monster that they too have to answer to someone. If not, they're in not only their ratings, but you know, it's a corporation.

Alex Ferrari 39:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 40:06
And so you know, to find truly independent stuff, you might have to even go further out into the margins. But comparatively still to the mains, the main studios and the three major networks that we're used to, it's pretty, still pretty, very controversial, exciting stuff, right? They don't

Scott Mcmahon 40:28
let me get back to do you remember, like, the first time you read a finished script? Stat got you, like turned on? Like, well, I can do this?

Randall Jahnson 40:37
Well, I don't necessarily recall reading a script and going gaga over it, I recall seeing movies and going just like, Oh, crap, that's what I want to write that, you know, and, and that, that's what I want to do. So we have to remember, you know, as a screenplay is a is a is only a stepping stone to the final write the final piece of art, you know, that it is, and it's hard. It's hard to admit that as writers. But we do have to remind ourselves if you're a screenwriter, that it's a, it's a waystation. To the ultimate, the final product, the ultimate vision. Right. Okay. So, so again, in, you know, I would look at a script and I'm like, okay, all right. That's, that's okay. But it's the movie that really inspired me. And it's still the movies that really inspire me now. I don't get overly excited about reading scripts, per se. You know, I have to I just, I want to see the movie. So yeah, so in. So great movies make me want to write great scripts. And but it's always interesting and instructive to look at the scripts that have become great movies. And to see that they that they are not perfect. That sometimes the they're far from it, for example. Well, whenever you let's say you go to a bookstore, and you'll find the screenplay of a certain movie, right? That's been published now. That's usually the the shooting script that they all publish, you know, and so they'll have seen numbers and everything like that. That's anytime there. There are scene numbers on there. You know, that's a very late draft. It's something that they probably you know, it was the shooting draft or close to it if they were numbering scenes. years ago, Frank Darabont, who wrote and directed the Shawshank Redemption, published a version of Shawshank that was not the shooting draft, it was a book that I think included the early draft of the script. And then, and then the shooting draft, something like that. And I'm mad at myself for I never picked that up and bought it. I remember thumbing through it, but Frank had the courage to, to go ahead and, and print an earlier draft of it. And the thing was a mess. It was all full of strikeouts, and crossed out stuff and notes in the margins and things like that. That's what a real script looks like. You know, so beware to anyone out there who's considering writing scripts, and they think that that has to be all perfect. That's just not the case, you know, a screenplay is, it cannot be chiseled in stone, it really can't it. It has it is a living, breathing entity. And it will ebb and flow, it will inhale, it will exhale, it will do things you don't expect. Sometimes you have to make alterations due to weather, to cranky actors, or to the whims of a studio or a star or director or whatever, for good or for worse, or whatever. These are, these are just the things that it's constantly in a state of flux, and will be until the film is shot, edited, and screened before a paying audience. You know, that's, you know, and that and that's the way it is, and you have to understand that so you can't be overly precious with it. Right? Right. You know, and just think, I mean, if you're starting out and you're trying to write a great writing sample, of course, you want to make it as good as you can possibly be because you want to get your best foot forward. You want to show people what you're capable of, right. But once you are working in or in that business, you have to know you have to suck it up man and just know that this thing is going to get mangled and trundled under by the Hollywood machine sometimes. And and even in the independent realms, it doesn't matter because there was still things are going to be constantly changing because the universe is just throwing your change ups all the time. It No. Okay, it's raining. We're supposed to shoot a sunny, a scene under sun today in blazing heat. Okay, the bar is more crowded than, than we expected to have our you know, the scene? Yeah.

Scott Mcmahon 45:16
You know, I mean, as these are mics,

Randall Jahnson 45:18
you know, I mean, these are things where you just constantly you have to think on your feet. And you have to be sort of flexible in terms of so as storytellers to you have to have the acuity of mind and the flexibility to say, okay, that doesn't work. I can switch this I can do here and a product shuffle this around, and we'll make that work. Right. And we'll we'll, we'll fit it for the occasion.

Scott Mcmahon 45:40
When you write, do you feel like sometimes I've heard the expression or heard things where sometimes writers discover the story, like it's sitting up there in a cloud of yours, or moments of inspiration that are just sort of permeating, where they start picking it up. Like it's just starts trickling down and they start, you know, like almost invisible ink like it starts revealing itself, the story and the shape that even though your your intention might not have been there originally, but as you as it, like you said, ebbs and flows and evolves, you're discovering it, and it's almost as you just have to be in the right, sort of mental space or capacity to grab hold of it. And and sort of let it like as I get let it evolve. Yeah. And I don't know. Oh, yeah. This is good. Yeah, I'm good. This is good. So I was wondering if so like, when you say you're in college, you are taking the writing the screenwriting class, I guess, you're getting feedback from your professors. Do you remember like sort of the first permeation of like the I the germ of the idea for your first full length story that you were like, you know, what this would make this would make a good movie. And I think I got to, you know, you've heard writers or that what that term, I gotta beat on it. I gotta beat.

Randall Jahnson 47:02
Yeah. Well, yeah, there's, you bring up a couple of points, but just specifically, to, to me, as I mentioned, before, when I was at UCLA, I wrote three scripts that were completely uncommercial. They were just, they were bad, you know, I wrote us, you know, sprawling, period, pace and a couple other just not not good, you know, pieces of work. And then I graduated, and I knew that I had to, in order to get somewhere, you know, to get get ahead in the business, I had to make a conscious effort to write something commercial. No, just to get on the map, right, I can be artful. And, and and write rd movies later on, you know, but I really need to get it on the Get on the map first and get get tried to make a living at it. Because at that point, I was, I was working in the mailroom in the Academy of Motion Pictures, arts and sciences and I and I, you know, I just, which was a great job, actually, but because I allowed me a lot of time to write during the day. But, you know, I had to, I couldn't stay there for the rest of my life. So. So I said, Okay, I'm gonna write something commercial and write something that could actually get made, you know, for a relatively low sum of money. So at that time, which that translated to write a horror film, right, okay, so then well, okay, how do you write a horror film? Or even at that time, it's like, oh, God, everything's been done already. So I was really looking to do something different. And so what I wrote I wrote a script then that summer, called slaughter rally, which was about a haunted highway or haunted a stretch of road a rural road that was haunted by the ghost of a hot rodder who had been killed on it back in 1962. Right. And so he races up and down it in the middle of the night in his 57 Chevy Bel Air you know running people off the road and claiming souls and

Scott Mcmahon 49:10
as you're explaining this, I can clearly hear the 20 guitar now

Randall Jahnson 49:13
Oh yeah. Oh, it was I mean, oh, that's clink Ray. You know, the cramps I mean, it was very music inspired in that sense because it you know, just like those great big Detroit Steel iconic cars you know, from the you know, from the late 50s and 60s all the muscle car era and stuff you you know, you hear the that big guitar sound as well The Ventures and you know, all the Eddie Cochran and all these things, the rockabilly sound and stuff,

Scott Mcmahon 49:43
Eddie rappels. Eddie. Did rebel rouser or any something but anyway, yeah, almost like a more of a punk version of that. Well,

Alex Ferrari 49:56
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 50:03
What was interesting simultaneous with this for me was that I had, I was in LA staying in LA after graduated and was really caught up in the music scene in Los Angeles at that point, which was getting swept with the real real kind of, I don't know what to call it a renaissance of music. But it was it was the punk rock thing that was at the core of it. And the hardcore specifically was taking over and really having a profound influence on everything. It was basically taking a flame thrower to everything. Right. Right. And just burning it down. So you had and that was led by black flag and the descendants and relevant today. Oh, sure. Sure. When the Dead Kennedys up in San Francisco and you know, there was social D down in Orange County in Southern California, say, yeah. And to me, it had a huge influence on me on a number of levels, specifically, you know, just creatively how you attack things. And they strip it down, there was no pretension. You just went out and you did it. And you made it work. And you did it with passion and really with an attitude in there was just something elemental. bitching about oh, man, it just was incredible. So I was witnessing a lot of this and then at the same time, with with the hardcore stuff, there was the sort of the art damaged bands that were doing things like this. There were bands like savage Republic, and the Fibonacci is in Walla, Vu, Voodoo even that were heavily influenced by film. Right. And so they were doing a lot of like soundtrack stuff, while a voodoo used to do a medley of Sergio Leone movies. Soundtrack so you know, the good bad, the ugly and hang them high. They would they would do this in concert, and it was just like, wow, and that had that big 20 af guitar, and it was just like, wow, these are this is a really, really I used up. Speaking what was Who do you? The lead the frontman for Stan Ridgway, yeah.

Did you become friends with him working on a project? Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 52:25
Well, just a quick aside, there I was. After I wrote slaughter rally, I wanted to write a murder mystery in what I was doing. My My notion for it was to have it was a murder mystery that was set in the punk rock underground of LA. And it was about a hardcore kid who was accused of killing someone and who had been apprehended. And then his public defender was like a, like a hippie, liberal liberal hippie who had to you know, defend this kid. And they were, I was very interested in just the opposing sensibilities kind of thing, you know. And so I started doing all this quote, unquote, research in the music scene at the time and going to I see all these different shows and and I made contact with a number of bands. I just reached out to them and one time or another and say, hey, could I'm doing this? Would you mind if I come to a rehearsal and see what you guys do? And everybody was really cool. You know, the Minutemen was one of those bands and, and, and stuff. And so the script didn't pan out, I just, just never quite got over the hump for it. But I made all these contacts with all these bands and very, very good friends. And so that's that's what led them to getting, doing some music videos for them and whatever. One of the bands that I really, that were very welcoming to me was a band called the Fibonacci and the Fibonacci is had already farty and ready to party as the LA Weekly described them. The Fibonacci is were open for Walla voodoo at one time, and they knew Stan Ridgway very much. And so one time I was at Club lunch array. And I forget who was playing but it wasn't the fibs, but I was with the keyboardist, the fibs jaunt and Tino and Stan Ridgeway and his wife came in and I said, Oh, God, you know, John, can you introduce me to Stan? I said, I'm a big fan. And I'd really loved the first time I saw them on stage. I was just like, oh, wow, these guys just to completely especially Stan just captured a lie, right? How my that sort of that collective approach to to every anything and everything? He said, Sure. So I met Stan and we talked and I told him I you know, while a Buddha was actually a big influence in writing slaughter rally, and he said, Oh, send me the script. I'd love to you allowed to read it and I said, Okay, so I did. And a couple of weeks later, I got a postcard. He actually mailed me a postcard and said, I read your script. I really like it. I'm going to call you in a couple of days with a plan. Man is always scheming. He's always got something, working up with a plan. But basically, that started with a friendship that still continues today. So And ironically, his manager, eventually manager when he went solo was my wife's older brother. But I, even before I started dating her, yeah, I knew Chris. But I didn't know he was related to Kate. When we first met. It was just really, Stan, Stan and Chris, they both argue they like to take credit for introducing.

Scott Mcmahon 55:57
But it sounds like it was already in there was already

Randall Jahnson 55:59
in the works. It was a pretty Yeah, yeah. But I was going to add one of the things that intrigued me about the music scene at that time, especially in the rockabilly circle, receives that when the blasters were playing, and there were a number of them. I haven't Yeah, there were a number of bands that were, you know, there was the stray cats that were the real big, yeah, but they're the blasters were the big the ones in the LA scene, but there were some other Los Lobos was really kind of a rockabilly influence. But anyway, they would bring out these these crowds that you would see them come up and they pull up in their, their vintage cars, and these guys would come out on their pompadours. And they're in their jeans and T shirt and their their cuffed jeans and their cowboy boots or whatever. And then and then they would have their, their girlfriends and the poodle skirts on them. And the Bettie Page kind of, you know, hair and all of that because

Scott Mcmahon 56:58
it's it that scene is like it's like a greaser scene, but like, like you said, it's it's not like it's not like a happy days QT. It's a little bit edgier, it was okay, with it. Now, it's like tattoos everywhere.

Randall Jahnson 57:13
Right. Granted, it was a little edgier, then, but it's still struck me I was still rather amused by it because to me it they still struck me as kind of like the posers because there would have been the real the real guys. That's me. Thank you.

Scott Mcmahon 57:30
Okay, we're back. We just take a dinner break. But listen, we were talking about slaughter alley, right? Which right, by the way, so it was like one of your first scripts?

Randall Jahnson 57:38
Yes. First attempt to write something commercial. Yes.

Scott Mcmahon 57:42
But that story is dear to your heart. Because we've been working on a little bit, launching your site saw slaughter allday.com Correct. Now, just let you know, I'm going to take another crack at that map, I think because I've learned since since we met last year, I've learned so much about, like, learned how to, you know, make some websites how to do just my job recently, I've been working in Flash lately. So like all this other stuff. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I think I can go back and like fix what I kind of tend to do. But anyway, that's in the back burner. But one of these days, as soon as it cleared up, I think I have a way that I can make that thing launch. Oh, that's so that's great. But again, that's just my interest of like learning stuff like that. And each year, I get more and more knowledge. And it's like, oh, wait, I can apply this now. Sure. Sure. Anyway, so as you write Slagter ally, right, and you had two other ones. Now during the process of like, writing the scripts, and you were trying to make it something commercially viable. Was there any moments in there where you felt like, I don't know, like you felt your groove? Like I know that sometimes I write stuff like it's a lot of times it's painful. But sometimes you get these magic moments where you just feel like when it's completed or something or like, wow, you know, I did it or I could see this or something like that. Yeah. Like what the question is, where do you find your enjoyment in the writing, because if you've done it so long, obviously there must be some grain as

Randall Jahnson 59:14
well. Slaughter rally was was fun to write. And I've done multiple drafts of it over the years. And looks like I'm going to be doing another one here, maybe very soon. Because I've got some interest in it yet again. It's the script that refuses to die. It is what I was saying that you know, scripts are alive and breathing. And this is some kind of like a monster that just lurks in this primordial slime somewhere that every now and then somebody keeps coming back and coming back to insane

Scott Mcmahon 59:50
like the story of like, Lawrence Kazdin when is one of our early scripts, the bodyguard and Costner.

Alex Ferrari 59:58
We'll be right back after a war from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:00:07
You just saw it on a shelf, something like one of his early early skills. And he said, I'll grab that. And they made that. But it was, you know, things like those stories where they take. They just been around for

Randall Jahnson 1:00:15
so long. Yeah, you know, I mean, look, the lesson I've learned from it isn't that nothing is ever dead in Hollywood. It's just, you put it in a drawer for a while. And then six months a year later, bring it back out, show it around again. That's if it's a spec script,

Scott Mcmahon 1:00:36
but Right, well, then again, even that now it's like lead it in, bled into the actual finished films with what Lucas has done with his Star Wars films. And it just read somewhere that new blu ray release, right, he added some more like dialogue to Darth Vader and return the Jedi where he like screams No, like, during the death scene of like, the emperor or something. So fans are like, again, like what the hell are you doing? Wow. So anyway, so yeah, even in film form. It has life that it breathes in. Sure. Sure.

Randall Jahnson 1:01:08
Yeah. And that's interesting now, that that it's come to that where it's so except easy and accessible to be able to get to make slight alterations, nip and tucks here and there and all that. I mean, that's the That doesn't surprise me. It's, it goes back to the I think it was as Ezra Pound who said you know, nothing as a poem is never never finished, it's abandoned. And so I think that's apropos for any kind of art you know, you just including scripts that at some point, you just got to abandon it because it's it's never quite done. It will always be a work in progress.

Scott Mcmahon 1:01:52
You've got to make a t shirt or that hat like those ready for like those Ryder conferences and stuff like that. I never thought of that. That's actually pretty good. We've seen these like, cute like shirts like busta T's dot com some really funny things. But anyway, yeah, I think that's a great great little say

Randall Jahnson 1:02:10
what like nothing is ever finished is found and

Scott Mcmahon 1:02:13
it's a symptom like abandoned it like this, you know, and they give like little wet you know, like a website in the back something to like, T shirts that are specific to that market, right and writers but yeah, people like we want to like walk bongos, what does that mean? Abandoned? Because it strikes of our conversation like, like, What the hell is that? That jam or that raised me? Yeah, so yeah, anyway.

Randall Jahnson 1:02:36
But anyway, kind of back to the, to the question. My was the inspiration are

Scott Mcmahon 1:02:47
working. And you have these moments of like, where you just feel like you're like, you're the shit. Like, you're like, you feel like you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm a genius, but or sometimes you don't?

Randall Jahnson 1:02:56
Well, I think if you ever start thinking thoughts like that, you're really asking for it, you're doomed. You know. That's the day you really start worrying. I had the good fortune one time to meet David Lean director of Lawrence of Arabia and stuff. And a friend of mine was assisting his restoration of Lawrence of Arabia. And I was, she knew that I was a big fan. And she arranged for me to meet him at that event and sneak in on a screening of it that Spielberg and a few other people were there. So it came back and shook my hand there afterwards, but she told me later that he had told her this story about when he was directing Lawrence of Arabia. And the day came for him to shoot the scene were very late in the movie where Lawrence is leading the Arabs on the on cutting a swath through the Turkish lines and heading straight towards Damascus. And then he has to make a tactical choice of either wipe out and slaughter this Turkish column that had just had raped and pillaged the village in Arabic village or move on to Damascus in greater glory and right the smart tactical thing to do, but Lawrence ops, succumbs to the thing of where he goes in massacres the Turkish column right and sort of satiate his, his his need for bloodletting and right and, and Leanne told her that the day that they filmed that scene, he drove the limo came and got him at his hotel and then they drove at the hour and a half out to the to the location or wherever it was. Leanne got out of the car and looked at, you know, the hundreds of extras all in uniform and calm I assume you know, waiting waiting for his his first command, you know. And he looked at all these people cast and crew just looking at him. And he got struck with with diarrhea just immediately had to jump back into the car and told the the chauffeurs and just take me back to the hotel, took him back to the hotel. And he camped out in the bathroom for two or three hours, I guess or whatever. And then finally got enough courage to go back out to the scene and direct it. But he didn't. The point was he didn't have any idea how to direct that scene. And he was so struck with with fear and insecurity that, you know, he was crapping in his pants. I mean, he just was literally I mean, he just got struck with. And so he said, you said to my friend Jude that, you know, that just goes to show you, it can hit anyone anytime, right? You know, it's just it's, it's always when you're, when you're when you're putting yourself out there, there's, there's a great risk that you're taking, right? You're overcoming a great amount of fear there. But were you you're embracing the theory, you're crossing over, you're taking these big risks and stuff. And so it takes great effort to do it. But he said somebody, like, the implication was somebody like him who's got all these accolades and stuff like that. Sometimes, they just don't know how to do it. They're scared. They're scared to you know,

Scott Mcmahon 1:06:34
I am Thank you.

Randall Jahnson 1:06:38
And so, so I always thought that was that was a great story, I felt very privileged to have heard that, you know, secondhand, right, you know? And, and, and so, anyway, back to what we were talking about it, you know, the times where you're really starting to feel cocky and say, Damn, I'm good. Right? Right. Is, you know, that's where you could be into a little bit of trouble. My best. Probably, arguably, my best writing is probably stuff that I was mortified that I wrote, you know, that I was scared, I was scared really to pass on because I was afraid of the reaction, it would get that people just think, what are you thinking? Are you out of your mind? God sakes, we're paying you all this money to write this Drac you know, you pretentious OF A BITCH or, you know, whatever, are damaged, you know, kind of geek, you know, all these, all these thoughts run through your mind. I mean, it's just, you know, racing your mind races with a lot of irrational or irrational stuff sometimes. But I think that and again, fear and insecurity can paralyze you, right? When you're when you're working. But the key thing is to have enough of it, that keeps you on edge. And it keeps you vigilant, and keeps you always wanting to take a risk, you know, enough, just enough to where you won't settle for the ordinary and the safe. But at the same time, you know, it you don't want you just want to push yourself just just enough to sort of just keep yourself on edge with it. You know, don't settle for the low hanging fruit, if you can. Yeah. And that. That is I think a really, you know, a really valuable lesson when when you start feeling like you're dialing it in, you're going oh, I can do this behind my back, you know, and then I think you're kind of losing something and you're losing the passion you're losing. You're losing the healthy fear of your stuff. I read something recently about a it's it's, it's in a book called The I think it's in this book called The War of Art. That's written by a novelist and screenwriter guy that wrote Bagger Vance, and don't ask me his name, because I couldn't find his name right now at the moment. But he, he was quoting or we're using the anecdote of how, how actors especially famous actors, choose their roles, why they make the choices of and he noted that many actors respond to that question by saying, oh, and he was citing on the actor studio, outside the actor studio, okay. And he said, invariably, they get that answered that question, how do you choose the roles that you that you do, and what prompts you and invariably they answer it scared me. You know, the good ones. Yeah. And I chose because it scared me He

Alex Ferrari 1:10:01
will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:10:11
So translation is that it was something I haven't done before. It was challenging. And I wanted to rise to the occasion, I wanted to meet that challenge. You know, I wanted to do something that I haven't done before. Right, right, you know, and go, you know, boldly go where no man has gone before, you know, with the be at the Starship Enterprise or your screenplay.

Scott Mcmahon 1:10:33
And I was up and until 330, last night working because I was scared of not being able to wrestle flash the program. I'm trying to learn this program flash, like, I don't know it. I'm online learning as I'm going. Yeah. And it's such a high learning curve. But it's still it was a challenge. And like, I don't I don't feel necessarily tired, because I was motivated all last night, or has this just sheer desire. Like, I've got to learn this. I've got to figure this out. How did you? How do they do this? How did you and then just because that desire and wanting to know, and then you and then the getting to that place where you kind of break it, we're just like, you accomplish it. We're, where you started and where you end up. It's such a far journey, but you're like, Wow, I did it. I was kind of scared jumping into because I didn't know how it's gonna get you know where to start. But as you finish and you found out you could actually do something or finish a task. That's always, you know, satisfying. Yeah. So, I guess for me, that's so now coming back to is like you have this. You have three scripts that you've abandoned. Yes, yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So consciously. So what was the first what was the first gig you had that? That was like, where you got paid as a screenwriter? Well,

Randall Jahnson 1:11:58
actually, I got I got paid to do a rewrite onslaught rally who so what happened was I wrote it. Then that summer of 82, I think it was and then I gave it to a friend of mine who had gone to film school with okay. It's actually former roommate of mine, Richard Green, who's now a very powerful agent at CAA. Actually. There you go. There you go. And Richard had at that time, aspirations to be a producer. And so he was working for a true producer a real working producer real work and as a guy named Bill Finnegan made TV movies and such.

Scott Mcmahon 1:12:42
As opposed to those the you know, who are Hollywood, there's a lot of producers. Yeah, yes. Yeah, that's true. Working?

Randall Jahnson 1:12:50
Yes. Say yes. Yeah, for the same, exactly the same. And you can apply that to writers and actors and all of that. So I'm gonna order another puck here is when he comes back again, but I'm just keeping one eye on him. So what happened was can I get a no, no. Okay. But no, no, I actually, I want to go for something a little redder. Yeah, the color you had a nice report. You were talking to someone there. earlier. Nelson arrived. Oh, really? Oh, it is an IPA and sat read. Really? Wow. Wow. That's something that's red. That's gonna be volunteer. Yeah. Yeah. I would recommend getting the Orkney school spirit. Okay. Oh, that all the school splitter I've had I've got I've had in the body of that draft. Okay. Oh, you do? Okay. I don't want to go. I want to get stick with the draft then. Do you have the thistle? Yeah. Yeah. Bring that.

Scott Mcmahon 1:13:53
Thank you. Actually got some water. I just need to hydrate here.

Randall Jahnson 1:13:57
So, Richard, I gave the script to Richard, because he said, let me let me take this to the producer. I'm working for Bill Finnegan. And he said, I think you might like it. Because Richard read it and really liked it and thought, wow, this is this is cool and so great. So he took it to his boss. And lo and behold, the boss loved it. They optioned it from me. And then they left

Scott Mcmahon 1:14:26
feeling like it was a bit surreal.

Randall Jahnson 1:14:30
It's your through the roof. You know, you're just it's just an exciting, wonderful feeling. And you could just feel like wow, I could do this the rest of my life. Do you have like

Scott Mcmahon 1:14:42
a moment of like, is there like a moment of I don't know we're all of a sudden like your whole future is right in front of you. Oh, you're like boom, that instance like I'm on my way and Ba ba ba ba boom and all this stuff? Yeah, you

Randall Jahnson 1:14:59
want ended up writing real fast. Just see it you know, like billboards on the on the on the freeway, man how's that? That's good. That's good. You want to try that?

Scott Mcmahon 1:15:13
Yeah, dummies gave a quick sip. That looks very frothy.

Randall Jahnson 1:15:17
Yeah. It's a nice head on that. So good bear. So they optioned it. And then they sat on it for like a year. For one thing or another reality? Yeah, just it just it just took awhile. And then I think it was that following summer, they they called up and said, we I think we're going to get some action on this. Now we're going to start rolling on it. And I think they renewed the option. They option it for one year, and I think they renew the option. And then then what happened was they got some money in the asked me to do a rewrite on it. And they had started they were getting a director and they had Judd Nelson. And Alexandra Paul. Cast What year was this was about eight knows that. 8382

Scott Mcmahon 1:16:09
or jet? Jet Nelson. All right. Okay.

Randall Jahnson 1:16:13
Well, we knew who Judd Nelson was. Breakfast Club hadn't come out the Breakfast Club hadn't come out yet. He had done. Forget what he had done before that that garnered a fair amount of attention. So he was cool. He was cool. Right? Right. We all like Oh, yeah, that's cool. So what happened was I did the rewrite, I got like, $5,000 to do a rewrite on it. And I remember didn't have an agent at the time. Did you? Well, that Okay. Quick aside on that. There's a lot of different things. Slaughter rallies, instructional, those listening in many different ways.

Scott Mcmahon 1:16:47
People Okay, why don't you got your

Randall Jahnson 1:16:51
first of all, let me roll back. I literally finished writing the end on slaughter rally the very first draft of it. And I took because I lived in Westwood at the time, I decided I'm gonna go take a walk into the village and, you know, get a cup of coffee or beer or something like that. I felt like like, yeah, so I walked into Westwood Village, which at that time, still had bookstores. And I remember going in to like, it was like hunters books that was there on Westwood Boulevard. And I walked in and prominently displayed on a case. In the whole little setup as you walk in, is Stephen King's Christine, which is had the cover of it was the car, the car, you know, and basically the grille of that I think it was an old Chrysler. And I looked at that, and I thought, oh, no, don't tell me. No, it can't be about like, and it wasn't quite the same. But boy, it was close enough. It was oh, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. So that that first of all, that was Lesson number one, which is that, you know, there are like you were talking about earlier, there are ideas up there in the cloud that you just sort of take, well, if you don't act on, on the idea that you have, somebody else is going to act on it as well. Right. And one of my instructors at UCLA used to say that look, ideas are literally out there floating around in the ether. It's not uncommon at all, for someone or several people to latch on to the same idea at the same time. Right? And it's not a case of somebody ripping off someone else or anything. It's just sometimes you all in you can call it the collective unconscious. You can call it any synchronicity. You can call it any number of things. But it is a reality. It happens. So you're here my attachment as well. Yeah. Okay. So my only advice in the front is that it will happen to you sooner or later. And act on your ideas. You get an impulse, you get a creative impulse, then act on it right away, you know, and if you can, you know, sometimes it's just not possible. You know, and sometimes there's not quite enough of a So, so that was that then so anyway, I did this. I did this rewrite, and slaughter rally. They were on the fast track they were going to heading into production, Alexander Paul Judd Nelson starring in it. I was doing this rewrite. I finished the rewrite of it. Remember this very well, on Halloween? 1980. I guess it's 83 At that point, and then two weeks before they were scheduled to go before cameras, the money disappeared and evaporated. And oh, and I forgot to say we got the proverbial Greenlight after my rewrite on it. Okay, Greenlight. You're going forward. It's happening. Boom.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:56
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:20:06
I quit my job at the academy and it was kind of like Solon mailrooms, suckers, you're never going to, you know, you're never gonna see me again, you know, except when I'm walking up the red carpet to collect my little gold man.

And well, that's what I was saying, you know, just after that option, that initial payment are like, wow, I am truly it's just you're getting, you can see the billboards on that highway right up all the way to the horizon, what you're going to do, you know, the old, it's all laid out for you. So then the money is yanked two weeks before the start date, it just fell apart, I never got an answer as to why it happened. And suddenly, everything came to a screeching and I mean screeching halt. So the big payday that I was going to get once they started filming whatever happened. And so I actually had to go back to the academy and ask in the most humiliating circumstances as for my old job back, which they gave me God loves them. And, but that taught me such a valuable lesson, you know, just such a valuable lesson very early on, about the film industry, how volatile it is. And no matter how good it looks, or whatever there are, there are things there are bolts of lightning that can strike at any given moment out there that will just derail even the most seemingly the most sound as to projects. So. So just always be aware of that do not count your chickens before they hatch, because it's just too many things can happen until an audience until your film is playing before an audience who has paid money to see it. In a theater, you know, and near you, man doesn't exist, it does, you know, just keep keep knocking on wood the whole way. Just be lucky. You can even you know, you've gotten we've gotten that far. So So then an answer to the agent. So when they first made the offer, to option it, I was I had no agent, I had no representation at all. And so I didn't know what to do. Yeah. So through some friends of good friends of mine, they knew they they recommended an agent to me, they made a call to him. And this guy came in and negotiated a deal. And suddenly, this was another valuable lesson I learned the the figures that they were offering me directly, were suddenly twice as high as I ultimately after the agent got into the business. So he basically negotiated a better deal for me. So he got his cut, certainly got his cut, but he also, you know, they stepped in and they made sure that I wasn't taken advantage. Because you know, you're young and you're hungry and you think Yeah, yeah, I'll take it'll take anything that they want to want to throw at you but they this agent came in and his name was Shelly while and Shelly came in and got that did a good job on that on that first deal. However, Shelly wouldn't take me on as a as a full as a legitimate client at his agency because they didn't represent well as he would keep me on as what he called a pocket client which was big kind of in his back pocket but I wasn't a regular client yet based on the merits of a quote unquote exploitation script. So you know slaughter rally was still for him didn't merit a you know, real representation yet so so that's how so I had I was his pocket client for a while and so he wasn't going to do anything for me he would be there to negotiate a deal for me, but I wasn't going to be able to get out and meet other people are or move on the success of the limited success of slaughter rally. So what happened was I went back I had my took back my job at the at the mailroom fell into a deep funk of depression where it was like xeroxing my face every day and because I'm am never going to get out of here. I'm going to die an old man in the mailroom, you know, all this stuff. It was just Oh, it's so depressing. And I felt I was never I wasn't going to find anything worth writing about. Yeah, again. And so then Then what happened? And during this time, I was going to all these punk shows and I was starting to make music videos for for Black Flag and Henry Rollins and what

Scott Mcmahon 1:24:58
do they make? Were you cinematographer, Director, part of the crew?

Randall Jahnson 1:25:04
I was I was directing them, you know? Yeah. So I mean, basically, I just was going to these guys, I went to the Minutemen after a show and I said, I talked to Mike was the bass player. And I said, Mike, you know, I can make, I had a couple of beers. And I said, like, I can make, I can make a video for you. You guys were like, you know, $300. And Mike said, Okay, let's do it.

Scott Mcmahon 1:25:23
Do you recall that any songs, the videos that you've done? Oh, yeah, it was.

Randall Jahnson 1:25:28
For the minimun it was, this ain't no picnic. And then we were in the same session, we shot. We went down and they were performing live that night to we were shooting on a weekend and so we shot on a Saturday and Sunday and then they they were performing Saturday night at a big punk rock show down at the Olympic Auditorium in downtown LA which used to be a an arena for like, you know, old wrestling right gigs and stuff like that. It was just a concrete slab. And so, we had all the camera equipment, everything and I had the crew and we were all young. I said look, I'll pay everybody you know, will you guys let's get some pizza. And let's go down to the frickin show. And we'll we'll shoot pizza. And we'll and we'll shoot I said I want to shoot I'm doing this ain't talking about love, which was their cover of the Van Halen Opus you know, Van Halen first big hit ain't talking about love and when you know when Van Halen performed it, it's like six minutes long, right? And then it finally climaxes with Hey, hey, yeah, you know that minimum 37 seconds basically they just took the last the last stanza of lyrics and then you know, I've been to the dish I stood and looked down you know, I lost a lot of friends there I got no time to mess around no way and then hey, you know hey, that was it and they played it really fast. So I told them in a man I said let's let's do this live you know I'm not gonna shoot you guys live performing this but try to perform it at the tempo you remember recording it because we had no playback right you know, I had a cassette back for for the stuff earlier in the day. And so and they said okay, and I said do one other thing the song is so short just play it twice. So I have time to switch camera positions because I had two cameras I said I just want my two guys to switch you know angle so we can pull on coverage right and and he said sure, you know, we'll do it so so we get down there we get in it's this big punk show there's like half a dozen bands on on they were pretty high up on the on the order and so we were there and we were right on the edge of the Persia and I had on the cameras a bit told me where it was going to be on their set, you know and so I said okay, and they gave me the signal and I roll the cameras then they started playing the song and the guys were were shooting and then the song ended 37 seconds later great now we're going to switch this they just went right back into it without any break and I said Mike No, no. D Boone, you know on the guitar was just I remember him just kind of shrugging like Oh, rockin so I had good my good friend Bill Jenkins was doing second unit quote second unit which was basically he had an old spring wound Oh Bell and Howell 16 millimeter camera that was like the leftover from World War One or something. And, and Bill was right next to me. And I remember he just scrambled up onto the stage he just clambered up there right away and it's on students, they started doing the second version and got behind them looking out at the audience got a great got a great angle. My other friend John Hart couldn't do it because the camera was too too big. He just couldn't get up. He was an Aeroflex. And so Bill got got these great shots. But the problem was a bills camera was so old, the the the spring on the camera is it would get lower in the wind, it would start slowing down. So when the film starts moving slower through the aperture, you capture more action on each frame. So basically, when you project it, everything starts speeding up. And it's like an old silent film, right? And so the last footage bits of them, just like they look like you know, Buster Keaton. It was just it was crazy. But once we started cutting it together, it kind of added to the whole frenetic quality of the video and and then we we did some in this because it was early 80s We could solarize some video and stuff once we added some kind of effects to it. And it's just it's, I have it on my website. You can you can see it. I got it. Yeah, but MTV played it as the world's shortest video made the MTV News. I never saw it. I saw that. But apparently Kurt Loder introduces the world shortest video at the time. And though he says something like that.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:04
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:30:13
What I thought was pretty cool, but this ain't no picnic, the one that we really did that was sort of legitimate that that played quite a while on MTV. And, and. And actually, a lot of that footage, all the outtakes and everything else were proved to be pretty valuable. Because you know, detune, the guitarist for the minimum was killed in a car wreck late in the December that year. This is 84. And you know, it's great having some really good, great images of performing, although we don't have sound on on it, but there's some really crisp stuff. And then I did another one for them. No, yeah, later Later that year. The same, not the same king of the hill, which we shot and video at the time, and we had a Steadicam for that we really stepped up. So,

Scott Mcmahon 1:31:06
so you did all this stuff. So you were what? What doors that open for you? Well, do you think that that you saw on top of your writing? Alright, sorry, we're back. Okay, so you've done well, making punk rock videos. Yeah.

Randall Jahnson 1:31:23
So what I was my idea at the time was like, okay, cool. I'm, I'm getting my directing experience now doing these these music videos, you know, and, and it was again, it was real, real shoe, string budget kind of stuff. It was totally punk rock. But SST Records was really happy with the with the minimum videos. And so they started talking to me about doing something with with black flag that was yeah, it was because they were Black Flag basically ran SST.

Scott Mcmahon 1:31:56
time it was Henry Rollins was had it it was funny, because now Well, well, yeah. Wasn't the original. Well, my memories. Black Flag was

Randall Jahnson 1:32:05
always Greg again. And then chuck to kowski. But then chuck eventually left. And just continued to to sort of run SST. But But Greg Ghen started SST records, and he was the guitarist for Black Flag. Okay, and so, Henry, excuse me was not the original. Yeah, no, vocalists there were several before Henry. But he was the one that finally stepped in and became really the face of Black Flag. Because Henry really relished, I think being the frontman there, and he was, you know, a formidable personality. And so,

Scott Mcmahon 1:32:46
who formed the circle jerks after that? Well,

Randall Jahnson 1:32:48
Chris Morris, and he would have been Chris Morris was the original vocalist for Black Flag. Okay. And then he's saying like nervous breakdown. And some of those really are that that very first EP 40 fives that they did. I was and then he went on to, he left and does start circle jerks.

Scott Mcmahon 1:33:05
I was up at Skywalker Sound couple years ago. And they had a project there. They had all the original masters for the Black Flag. You know, albums, that really they were remastering. Oh, wow. And it's just classic box. They're showing us like this project they are working on. I'm just like, it's interesting and crazy black beats out

Randall Jahnson 1:33:28
there. So there's a clash. Right there. But and that's, that's another story working with an array and all that. But, you know, by I was hoping that what this would do would would give me continued cred, you know, as a director, and then my writing career would be kind of moving along simultaneously, right, you know, with this so that eventually I would be, I could parlay it into a thing where I write something and say, Okay, I want to direct this. Okay. And I'm hoping that somebody would give me that option. No, it would give me that chance. What happened then, was that I'm back at the mailroom, right. And I'm black in a funk now because the production fell apart and and I just didn't think I was going to get anywhere out. So like I was saying, I've seen all these punk shows really be inspired by the music. And I that's when I really tried to write that failed murder mystery thing that fell apart. And it just, it just didn't come to come together. So I also started a record label shortly after this to that, but that was a little further down the line. But so anyway, still in working there. I ran into another old friend of mine that I had gone to film school with. They asked and he said what are you doing? And I sent him licking stamps in the mail room, dude, I've done I like bombed and he said, Well, whatever happened to slaughter alley, he said that was a great script. And I said I'm just sitting there on a shelf but he said Give it to me. He said I'm working on Working in the mailroom at William Morris Agency, he said, You know, I can't tell you the crap I have to read every day. And a lot of this is by in a lot of the scripts are by people who are making a lot of money, instead of that slaughter rally is just as good as any of the stuff that I'm reading. So let me get let me get into a couple of young agents there that I have in mind. And so Okay, so he did. And within a couple of weeks, I was asked to come into way Morris and I met with a couple of young agents there, Rick, Jaffa and Carol young Gus were their names, and they loved the script. And they signed me. And that was just like, boy, suddenly, it was like, Oh, well, it'd be represented by people my age, whereas Shelley, while was much older guy, and now he read people's like in my age bracket and speak in my language, right. And they just loved it. And they said, We're going to get you out of meetings. And we'll start, you know, we're going to start finding some things for you. And I said, fantastic. So I was really emboldened by that. Rick, Jaffa, incidentally, left, a couple of years, or 333 years or four years later, is my agent to become a writer himself. And he just recently he and his wife just recently wrote Rise of the Planet of the Apes. Oh, wow. Yeah. So he's done. All right. Yeah. And yeah, but but he was a, he was a terrific guy, and a terrific agent, you know, for me at the time, and I remember meeting him the first time and he said, I gotta tell you, I said, I got your script, I read it. I couldn't put it down. He said, when it was done, I threw it in the air. I was so happy reading a really good script. This is a really awesome script. I love it again. And this was just like, Oh, God, thank you hearing stuff like that I write from somebody really in the know. Yeah, you know, who says, Oh, we're going to take this and we're going to, we're going to, we're going to get you some work, you know, based off of it was still under option with a company that had, right so it was tied up, they couldn't go out and try to resell it. But they said we're going to we're going to use this as a calling card for you and get you out there now and start starting. Yeah, start. You know, thanks. So that's, that's what, what led to my first bit of employment, which I can tell you about now, or will hold till next day later.

Scott Mcmahon 1:37:24
I think we'll wrap it up for tonight. I think this is great. This is This is better than I expected. But I mean, because it's I feel like there's so much more there's so much more we could talk about. And I think that the the audience of one, whoever's listening to this podcast but yeah, so let's wrap it up and we'll catch up another you know,

Randall Jahnson 1:37:47
we've kind of jumped around all over the place with music and let me finish a thought though, which was maybe you can put this back into the context that it really just should have been when I was earlier talking about going to these the shows and like they've seen the blasters and, and a lot of this rockabilly stuff that was happening. They struck me all as being a little bit like posers, right. And I and, and I felt very acutely that, you know, there would been a generation or two before them who were the real McCoys if you write that were the real, the real rockabilly guys, the guys who were sniffing glue and race in their cars, three o'clock in the morning and like, you know, drink and they got a pint of slow gin in the back pocket and high school, you know, and, and would rumble with a chain and a dryer i right. And I always was thinking about boy, it'd be really, it's amusing. What would happen if some of those guys came and met up with these kind of poser. Right? rockabilly policies, you know, really come to rumble, what would happen, you know, what would happen to these kinds of posing guys who look like really tough? Right, right. You know, the real McCoy has showed up one night on their doorstep. So that was kind of an impetus to start writing slaughter rally was really what would happen if the past came and visited upon the future. Yeah. And how, how would either hold up, you know,

Scott Mcmahon 1:39:16
it's cool. It's such a cool little subculture. Yeah, like, you know, like Conan Conan O'Brien is a huge rockabilly fan and he's got his, his his own rockabilly band and, you know, oh, really, I

Randall Jahnson 1:39:30
didn't know that was his brand of his brand.

Scott Mcmahon 1:39:33
He goes sometimes on these little tours, like when there's a hiatus of the show, where he and his rockabilly band play across the country Sure. So but he's got this little he's got this affinity history wise hairs a popper do our time or whatever. Yeah,

Randall Jahnson 1:39:47
okay. Well, that's a that sort of explains a lot.

Scott Mcmahon 1:39:50
He's a Harvard guy or whatever he is.

Randall Jahnson 1:39:54
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, huh?

Scott Mcmahon 1:39:57
Be funny if he met with the past now. But

Alex Ferrari 1:40:02
we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Randall Jahnson 1:40:11
Well, that's kind of what I'm talking about, you know? So, you know, you look at it. I mean, again, it's partly over our, or our fascination with people like Johnny Cash and right Carl Perkins and all those, all those early guys, you know, they weren't they weren't bright, educated guys are tough as nails, though. And they were really they were the real deal. And so I just wonder what would happen, what would happen. So

Scott Mcmahon 1:40:41
how funny. All right, oh, we can wrap this up. And we'll we'll continue another time for sure. And I know, I'm interested. There's so much more to talk about. So yeah, and hopefully next time we talk mentioned, whatever the next steps of projects are going on, and we'll catch up on what you're doing.

Randall Jahnson 1:40:58
Yeah, there was kind of a cluster of activity. There were a period there that really, you know, career in Hollywood is very streaky, it can be like a, like, a hot streak in sports, you know, where, if you're, if you're hot, and you're working it, then we're gonna work and you know, surf that wave, you know, like that? Yeah, yeah. Because you never know, when if, if another good one is going to come or not. Right, right. Again, thanks. Hollywood is always throwing the changeup ball at us. So I'm mixing my my sports metaphors. I know, we got about three or four of them in the span of a two or three sentences here. But I think you get the gist of what I'm talking about

Scott Mcmahon 1:41:46
You lost me on the wave when I was just like, my brain started thinking about the wave. Yeah. All right. Cool.

Randall Jahnson 1:41:52
All right, Scott. Thank you.

Scott Mcmahon 1:41:53
Yeah, we'll catch up later.

Randall Jahnson 1:41:55
Cool!

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 307: How I Wrote Birdman with Oscar® Winner Alexander Dinelaris

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alexander Dinelaris 0:00
The road is the road, you know, and I think people get discouraged. They'll be like, Oh, you do things you submitted. Yeah. But you know, agents aren't reading your shit. And you're not sending them straight to a studio. Like it seems impossible. But it is, like you said about doing the work by having friends read about opening up your circles to people who are more in the business, and your talent, hopefully will naturally float you up, you know, toward the top.

Alex Ferrari 0:28
I'd like to welcome to the show, Alexander Dinelaris. How you doing, Alex?

Alexander Dinelaris 0:31
I'm doing well. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:32
I'm doing great, my friend. Well, first off great name. I'd like to first name it. It works.

Alexander Dinelaris 0:40
I think it means leader of men. If you look at that. That's what my mother used to tell me. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 0:46
Of course, your mother would tell you that. You're Latino. And that's what my mother would tell me as well.

Alexander Dinelaris 0:50
That's right. That's right. I tell you, it's a really funny thing right out. So you know, my relationship with my dear friend and my director, I found that it calls me never calls me it always calls me to kaiyo namesake, right. And then I was producing films with two directors that are now developing films to talk about later. Anyway. One of them is Allah, her name was Alex from Chicago. Right now I'm doing a Colombian. I'm producing this Colombian artists film her name is Alessandra and her directors I found that are like here. So every time we're on the call, you're like which Alex three Alex to seven. Alex is we have no idea who's

Alex Ferrari 1:28
Growing up. I couldn't meet one, Alex. But now they're everywhere. I know. They weren't as popular back then. But listen, man, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've been a fan of of your work and what you've been doing outside of obviously, Birdman and other things you've done as well. But my first question to you, sir, is how and why did you want to get into this insane insanity that is the film industry.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:51
I mean, I sort of backed into it a little bit. I grew up in this tiny little town called East Rockaway, Long Island. And I had a movie theater across the street from me one of the big old movie, there's called the criterion. And it was one of those ones back because I'm, I'm a mold now. So I'm talking about like late 70s. And it was one movie theater, big curtain balcony. They played one movie if it was good, they played it for six months if people were coming like it never changed. And my house wasn't the greatest place for me to hang out in. So I used to sneak across the street and just sneak in the movie theater and watch movies all day. And that's when I fell in love with movies. So I was like 10 years old and I was watching movies like Kramer vs Kramer and you know great Santini and justice for all these are all my favorite movie, rocky two and stuff like that. But I was watching anything that was there. So then in high school, I fell in love with theater. And for one second I was going to be a theater actor. And then one second later, I knew I wanted to direct theater so that I studied theater. And I had a weird life man like I had a weird life. I didn't I had some tough times and but I found myself in a little University in North Miami called Barry University.

Alex Ferrari 3:09
No bear very well, you know, Barry, there you go. Very well.

Alexander Dinelaris 3:12
I was a berry for two years. And then I came back to New York because again, I was a total mess. But I was studying theater and I was in the restaurant business because I had to make a living. And one day I wrote a script for a friend and somebody saw it and and liked it. Next thing I knew people wanted me to write instead of do anything else. And it was easier to do when I was working in the restaurant business because you get home at two in the morning right? You couldn't get home at two in the morning and direct anything you know what I mean? I couldn't afford the time off and then my scripts just got a Danny Aiello is actually my fairy godfather. I know if you know Danny recipes, Danny, the unbelievable actor from do the right thing and Moonstruck and Danny got a play of mine and fell in love with it and said, Who the hell are you? I need to work with you. And we did a bunch of readings and he was like my fairy godfather. And then he got me to Johnny Blanco, who's a very famous manager who handled like Lauren Bacall on Peter O'Toole. And he asked Yeah, I mean, more like Anthony Quinn Paul Schrader now, I mean, just amazing. And Johnny, because I was doing a play with Danny who represented said, Do you want to manage? I was like you he said, Yeah, I said, you're the only person I would be the only person on your client list that I didn't know. And he said, nonetheless, I think you're gonna be good. And he signed me. Got me to CAA. CAA got me out of the camera. I like how they're doing I did beautiful together the first Bardem movie I wrote a few more drafts of that before I ease out and then we got back on Birdman and the rest is history for films and then the rest of my film stuff but I've done plays and Broadway and stuff as well. That's how I got there.

Alex Ferrari 4:52
That's how you got there met so it's it's interesting because so many so many people listening right now are still you know, working in the restaurant business, trying to get their skin reps made. But you were also in New York at the time, right? So it was a little different kind of like I always tell people, if you want to get hit by a car, you gotta go where the traffic is. That's fair enough. Yeah. And New York and LA are kind of those two places. Would you agree?

Alexander Dinelaris 5:15
I would agree. I mean, eventually have to find your way there. Because if you're going to creep up into a writers room, or if you're, you know, you could write scripts from anywhere and submit them and but yeah, better that you're mingling meaning somebody sees your stuff, of course, your your your analogies, right.

Alex Ferrari 5:32
Yeah. And it's interesting that it's this this business in general, there's Oh, you always need to have like a Donnie Brasco style person, not an Italian but I'm saying a person who vouches for you to give you some sort of credibility to open a door like Daniela was your was your very God, Father, essentially, he was the one that and when people said, Oh, if Danny's looking at him, he must be so he's just one person to open that creek that door open. And then your town will do what you're telling.

Alexander Dinelaris 6:02
That's an interesting point. Because those those people that you say that might be listening, all of you out there that might be listening that are that are trying to get there. So we're in the restaurant business, which I've been for 24 years, by the way, I wasn't as successful writers as almost 40. So but there's also so we don't jump straight to Danny Aiello because you could be listening to this going like, Yo, how the hell do I meet Danny yellow, that's the problem. But that's not how it happens either. Right? How that happened was I wrote a play. I did that play in a staged reading. Somebody in the reading was a friend of my friend who was an agent, like commercial agent, a guy named Doug Keston. From paradigm, amazing commercial agent, amazing guy goes to the he loved to play. And at the time, the actor that I had in the part was going out, but he loved the play so much is like, Can I help you? You know, find somebody I was like, Oh, my God, that meant at the time, by the way, I'm living in a eight foot by five foot room and Brooklyn eating Chinese food for five days, you know, I mean, like, terrible. And he calls me up a few days later and says, How would you feel about Danny Aiello? I'm like, What are you crazy? Like? Like, right, like, well, let's get it to him. And there's a funny story of about I won't go into it. But my point was, it wasn't just Oh, hi. Here's that Danny Aiello.

Alex Ferrari 7:15
Of course, no, there's always

Alexander Dinelaris 7:17
A little reading of a play in a little place with a bunch of friends. Somebody was there. He said, I liked it. So it's not just, you know, it's about how you build relationships, how you network and this gets back to your go into traffic is, the more people you know, if you're doing good work, somebody notices, tell somebody else. And then you get to Daniella, which gets you through the fence to whatever happens next. So there is a, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 7:39
Yes, absolutely. I agree with you. 110%. The point is that, yeah, you have to just do work because you didn't write. You didn't write that first script, thinking that you were gonna get someone like to Daniella to open a door for you. You were just doing the work. But I have to ask you, man, and this is something I think a lot of people listening would identify with. How did you keep going until you meet all those years? You said 24 years in the restaurant business? What kept you going following the dream of being a writer and a director?

Alexander Dinelaris 8:07
I mean, but I was I, I let it die. It was never a writer. It was always I just wanted to direct theater. You know, I never thought I would be a writer. I didn't plan on it. So I let it die. I was very dysfunctional. I grew up in a house that was no good. I was drinking too much booze. When I was too young. I lived on the street for a couple of months in New York City. Like it was a mess, man, I I couldn't have my lights on. You know, it was bad. But I always loved it. Right? I love theater, I loved stories, I love film, always. And then I got into the restaurant business what happens you sort of get numb because when you have enough to pay your bills, and it just gets you enough, then you've you're so depressed that you're not doing what you love to do that you finish work at the restaurant at one and then you drink your face off till four you know and then you rinse and repeat for about what turns into two days to 10 years, you know, and I did everything there was to do in a restaurant from washing dishes and peeling shrimp to owning one. Which you know, general managing all that stuff but one day I just quit it 2000 Or something I just quit it and ran to Florida and but then I said I'm gonna try it so I wrote the plays and then it worked. So I I didn't keep the dream alive in the middle. I just envied the dream and it was really depressing time for me. And still to this day when I'm you know, I swear to God like this is my house. This is my office is my man cave down here because they have a drum set back there.

Alex Ferrari 9:44
So yeah, I was gonna say there's a very loving drum. Yeah

Alexander Dinelaris 9:49
All my Yankees baseball's are there

Alex Ferrari 9:51
Is that a golden glow back there? Yeah, I think that yeah, of course.

Alexander Dinelaris 9:56
And there's no night there's no night that I don't or morning that Don't wake up and come down here and go, What the hell happened? Like I, I wake up every day like, I mean it, like super grateful like, like that. But it's crazy, you know how I got from there to here and that for anybody listening like that, like there is a road it just takes the road is the road, you know, and I think people get discouraged. Oh you do things you submit it Yeah, but you know agents aren't reading your shit and you're not sending them straight to a studio like it seems impossible but it is, like you said about doing the work by having friends read about opening up your circles to people who are more in their business and your talent hopefully will naturally float you up, you know, toward the top. If you if you network enough and give your stuff enough and have good soul and help other people and, you know, I believe that I'm living proof of the luckiest son of a bitch in the world.

Alex Ferrari 10:54
Yeah, it's it's a beautiful, I love what you're saying. It's actually really beautiful because it's there's so much hardship trying to get into this business. It is it is absolutely brutal. Arguably the most difficult business in the world to crack into really, it's easy as you can be a brain surgeon faster. Honestly.

Alexander Dinelaris 11:12
Yeah. Or more directly. That's true. Absolutely. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 11:15
There's no quit because there is no path. And I love when you said the path is the path. The journey is the journey. And it's different for every single person. No one else is going to write a play who then a friend sees it then UN agencies and then it gets to a Danielle yellow caliber actor who then opens the door for you. They get nobody's going to that. And my biggest mistake growing you know, coming up in the business is I just started seeing everybody else's I was like, oh, that's how Robert Rodriguez did it. Well, maybe that's what I should do. Or that's how Kevin Smith did because that came up in the 90s so it's like yeah, and then ever works.

Alexander Dinelaris 11:46
Yeah, stories about him given blood and raising the money for like,

Alex Ferrari 11:50
Direct filmmakers. I've talked to him like yeah, gave blood to and I'm like, How'd that work out for you? Bro? I'm still hustling man. I'm like, that was his God. That's his path. So you got to find that path for yourself, I think is a big thing. So you finally get to see a you get to to meet Mohandro. But yeah, but at the time, but when you met Alejandro was that 100 other 100 yet, or was he just coming up?

Alexander Dinelaris 12:17
He had just finished No, he had just won the Golden Globe for and was nominated for the Oscars for Babel.

Alex Ferrari 12:24
Oh, that's right. The Babel he did that do that also, he was already on the hunter. He was already on the cattle.

Alexander Dinelaris 12:28
He did his first three movies with a an unbelievably talented writer named Giamatti. Yaga. Who did modeste back at us 21 grams and battle. Right and then those guys parted ways. And he was looking for another writer and this agent in New York from CAA who Johnny, Danny and by introducing me to Johnny Johnny submitted my stuff to CAA. At CAA there was a theater agent named Olivier Sultan, who's still my agent, one of my best friends. And Olivia fell in love with my play still life and crazy. Because Alejandra I think we've just moved from paradigm to CAA I believe, and he was looking at any parted ways with with Guillermo. And he was looking for writers and CAA since he was a new client and he was you know, just on babbling, he's, you know, up and coming as one of the biggest directors and they sent them a pile of scripts and the way Alejandro told me story was like he read through a million scripts and called CAA was like it's not working, I can't find it. Went through the bottom of his pile. And there was my play. Not it's not a movie script with my play still life and he read it. And they called up, you know, his people at CAA and said, Who the hell is that guy? I need to talk to that guy. And they call me in New York City I'll never forget I was in my sweatpants, eating a TV dinner of a trade with my wife watching the Yankees play Toronto Blue Jays, I'll never forget it. And I got a phone call. It's like, is this Alexandre? And I said, Yeah, this is Alexandra Gonzalez. I read your play. Still Life is full of blood. I want to drink your blood. That was literally the first thing that mother ever said to me, ever. That's what he said. And my wife was fooling because she thought he was so gorgeous. She was like, Oh my God. And I'm like, what is happening right now? He's like, can you come to LA tomorrow? I got on a damn plane. That was a Tuesday night. I got on a plane the next day. And the next night he and I were having dinner, discussing what would become the film Beautiful. Two days later, he called me agents. And he's like, I want Alex. He's my writer. And I joined him in Spain and we wrote beautiful, do crazy,

Alex Ferrari 14:29
That's insane. This. These are the kinds of stories that are heard about in the, in the in the back alleys of Hollywood. This is what happened. This is you. It can happen for you too, though. And they'll say these kinds of stories. But that's such an that literally, the universe was guiding you. There's just no question.

Alexander Dinelaris 14:49
There's no other explanation. There's no it makes no sense. It may get a pile of scraps from all these. Imagine the famous writers that were in Ohio. Oh shut up. Play at the bottom, by the way from New York. Yeah, I remember somebody said to me, I forget who it was, but I'm there recalling the stories like, like the Ito like I forget who it was somebody high up it's yeah, one of the you know owner Kevin or Brian or something. And he was like, you know, Alex, I found my writer Alex, they were like, oh my god, that's amazing. Why didn't we think of it as a perfect, you know, marriage. And then they called New York and like who the hell is Alex? And they're like, Oh, he's a playwright. Olivia has like getting on the phone. He needs to get on a plane. And I was like, that's, that's how that's how that went. And did you ever?

Alex Ferrari 15:36
Did you ever see the movie? The big picture with Kevin Bacon? Yeah, it was pets kinda it has a little bit of that vibe to who is who's this guy? Yeah, highest guy.

Alexander Dinelaris 15:50
Nobody knew me. I was brand new.

Alex Ferrari 15:52
So So you fly out? Do you fly out of Spain to meet all the hunters? So

Alexander Dinelaris 15:56
I flew from New York to LA.

Alex Ferrari 15:58
Okay. Oh to LA and then when you start to work with with Alejandro as a collaboration? Well, first of all, when you went to meet him that night, dude, what is that? Like, bro? How do you

Alexander Dinelaris 16:09
I can't even tell you the joy of it. Like I'm, I'm a schmuck. I'm not making any money. But I get out there he picks me up for dinner in his car. We go to this Italian restaurant that we still go to now it's a little outdoor place like not doesn't look super fancy. But it's really good. The food's great. He loves it. And they're letting him smoke out on the patio, which in LA, you can imagine. Oh, good. But we're we immediately hit it off. Right? So we're like three bottles of wine in. And I like that. I don't know if you remember the movie beautiful. But I like I'm, like, gets up from the table. And he's like, No. And then we're on the water. I'm gonna see you look up dead body floating like eyes, look at your dead body. And there's everybody eating right around us in the restaurant. But he gets so passionate. And he just starts doing this that not everybody. I know, all of a sudden, like a graveyard in the water. And I was just I loved every minute. But you could just picture the people nearby going.

La la la is just added we yeah, we fell in love on our first day. Oh, that's amazing.

Alex Ferrari 17:12
And so let me ask you working with someone like Alexander, who's obviously a genius. He's an absolute genius. What are some of the lessons you learned as a writer working with him specifically on that first project? And then we'll get to Birdman.

Alexander Dinelaris 17:25
Well, the first project was amazing, because here I am in this world with that I go to I go to Spain to Barcelona where that movie takes place. And it's about street people. African immigrants who sell the purses and the videotapes, like a big part of the story. And the story is how the out of out of them has two kids and he's dying. And he has no place to leave them. His wife is sort of bipolar, and he doesn't have family and he doesn't have money. And this whole very, so sad. What do I do with this? What do I do with these kids? Um, so we went to Barcelona for a week or two, we did the research, we interviewed, we went through the little apartments of these people and how hard they work and how tough they live, it was really, and then saw sites and you know, you sort of got what we what we needed. And then he said, make it your own, you know, now make it your own. And I went back, I moved to Barcelona for about a month. My wife was my best partner, my wife Nyla. And she was like, just go because I wanted to be there were so about the streets of Barcelona. So I lived there. And I just typed it out. And I handed it to all Hondo and he said to me, like, this is not what I wanted. And I was like, I thought it was kidding at first. And he was like noticed. In all sudden, he sounded sad. And I was like, oh shit. Like, he means this. And we did all the work together. We talked about like I didn't. And he said, I'm gonna go to Mexico and write a few scenes, and then I'll send them to you, you'll see more of the tone. And I was like, oh my god, it's free. And I remember sitting on a couch, I gotta admit, I was I was crying. Like I wanted to be I wouldn't be to my wife was just, you know, I was just so sad. Not only because it was Alejandra, but because like, I felt so strongly about what I had done. No, no the story. Then he sent me some scenes. And I realized, oh, no, I'm not. I liked him. We liked each other so much. And I'm like, I can't write that story. So I talked to Nyla. I talked to my agents. And then finally one night, I got on the phone with Alejandro and I was like, brother, I can't write this. You're a genius. And this movie is going to be amazing. But I'm not your guy. And I'll make it worse because I don't believe that. That isn't my understanding. And I'm too close after a month with these people that I I wrote. But you can use everything I wrote. And I'm sorry. He's like, Well, you know, get him on. I used to hammer it out. And I'm like, yeah, if I thought we were close, but we're not close, and I'm just going to hurt your movie. And it was funny because I love comedy was the only guy that understood that Like I remember the night I think Hillary counted the same way we both were really sad about it. We were like, we knew it was strictly about the work. And he respected that. And I respected him so much. And I and that was it. And I didn't talk to him again until he was going to do the premiere, which I have not a premiere screening at the Seoul house in New York. And he invited me and I was so nervous. I brought my friend Olivier my agent just to hold his leg because I was so nervous, and everybody was there, like Julian's neighbor was there and I had for fun. So is there and I watched the movie and a lot of the stuff for the father and the kid stuff was still had my stuff and spirit in it. And, and so that relieves me a little bit. And then the other stuff was the other stuff. And he was so nice about it. And we have lunch the next day. And he said, What did you think? I was like, What am I supposed to say? I was like, it's a beautiful movie, I still stand where I stood before. I think when its focus is on this thing. It's, I feel more of that. When it doesn't, I sort of don't but and you know, like my reps and people stop talking me for a little while because they thought, here's this. Here's this new guy. And he's vein crazy, difficult. And I was none of those things. But they didn't know that Allah Hamiltonian knew that. And sorry to make the story longer than it should. But so I resigned from the film. I'm the first name on special credits. I remember sitting with my friend Brad, Fryman watching a clip of have you had on the Oscars that year. And I stand on my buddy Brad, who was an actor who's standing right next to me, I'll never forget. And they were showing the clip of how he ended because he was nominated for Best Actor for that. And I said, look at that, Brad, I said, that's the closest I'm ever gonna get to an academy award right there. Like that thing. And Brian was like, get a whiskey like, I was I was buying. Yeah. And then so my agents, you know, were not pleased, and understandably, but they didn't hear the whole story. And then I went to, I used to write in Puerto Rico. I used to write on the West Coast and Isabella whenever I went to go, right. And I was working on a musical of the bodyguard of all things, the Lawrence Kasdan movie, and I was doing a Musical for England. And I got there and I got a call from Alejandro and he said that, he said, I have an idea. It's a comedy dark comedy in one take. And I want you to write it with me. And I said, Man, nothing would make me happier. We have unfinished business and I would love that and he said, Do you mind because the guy who the guys who replaced me were Nico and Armando on beautiful. They're the ones are credited with Alejandro. He's like, do you mind if I bring this guy Nico in with me? And I was like, Miss mother. Yeah, sure. What am I saying? No. But, you know, then I got a call from my agent who was like, Hey, I heard you.

Alex Ferrari 22:51
And I was like, of course, of course. Understand the body pow.

Alexander Dinelaris 22:57
I heard Yeah. All right. You had a kid two years ago. But like I said, I understand it. I really do. So then we flew to New York. I met Nico and it took Nico and I one day to become brothers. And then Nico, and I were writing Birdman. And then Armando came in was do album story. And Alejandro, you know, had the idea. And that's how that happened. In the craziest way. We ended up working on Birdman. And that's how that story went. So I guess I risked everything I didn't mean to I still I don't know if I went back in time. Now I, I probably wouldn't have done it again. And my wife was a champ for standing by my side as well as my age and Olivia. Because you imagine how crazy that sounds?

Alex Ferrari 23:43
Well, you know, I mean, you mad? I read brother, that is a hell of a story. Because you just you get your shot with arguably, you know, one of the greatest directors of his time of his generation. And everyone knew he was going in that direction. Without question, and you decide to have in Hollywood integrity. As I put it out in quotes, integrity for the story, like it sounds insane. This is Hollywood talking this Hollywood thing. Agents looked at it but on the hunt, understood where you were going with it respected and respected it because you're right, because a Hollywood director that would have a Hollywood writer who might have not had the same sensibility as you would have been like, this is my shot. I'm gonna hammer it out with him. And it might have made the film worse, but you outed up you said this is not gonna

Alexander Dinelaris 24:36
I probably should have. But I did. I just respected him so much. And I was like, I'm not going to get in the way of this genius. Like I'm going to write that badly. I'm going to write that badly. And this is my first shot and and, you know, like I said, I don't I don't know if I do the same thing again. today. I'd like to think I would. I was making no money at the time when I quit, you know, is making I two plays off Broadway in New York, which pays you all about 25 $30,000 In total, in some of the biggest off Broadway theaters in New York, by the way, and they still, you know, there's no money in it. And, you know, my wife was making all the money at that time. She calls me her startup now to this day. Oh, that's a great I love that. Yeah, she does. But she stood by me. But yeah, Alejandro knew what I was saying. And I was saying, I'm not gonna get in the way of your vision of this of this film. And nobody else got it. But he got it and then came right back to me. And now we've done four together. We're still doing stuff together. We're brothers. I love him. So it just worked out.

Alex Ferrari 25:41
Man. It definitely worked out the way it's supposed to work out for you. And it's the thing that's great about it is looking in from the inside out from outside in. It's insanity, but from the inside out, it makes all the sense in the world. It looking back. Yes, looking back, looking back at when you're in it not so much. Now, I have to tell you about Birdman. I was that year I, I I heard about Birdman. And obviously, look, it looked really interesting. And I was a fan of Alexandria. And I watched it and I'll never forget my first impression of of Birdman. I turned to my wife and I said, Oh my God, that's what a director is. I haven't seen a director direct, really direct and have such a clear vision and such a long time. And and that that's not a slight on any of the director, just his vision was so vivid for that film. And it just was like he took you by the nose and carried you through the entire movie, and the performances and the one shot and I'm like, What is going on when you're writing that with him? It's an insane story. Yeah. Everything is a little bit like it's insane. The characters are all over the place. Meaning that like there's so many different things going on in that story. How did you keep it all? That's I guess that's why you need it for three to four writers on it. What kind of keep it all in check with Tell me.

Alexander Dinelaris 27:07
Alejandro has strong vision of what it was. Yeah, he had a very strong vision. And Armando is a director as well and a very good one at that. They tend to be story guys. I mean, Alejandro is generating a story. And Nico and I are the sort of writing dyes like how do we make that? How do we put that into, you know, exterior, St. James Theatre in New York City. I think like I said, Nikko and I had became inseparable and we were finishing each other's thoughts and we're two very different kinds of writers like I don't know if you shot Nico has a really quirky great film called John and the whole that was caught it was in the stupid right in the pandemic but he's Nico is a an absurdist at heart. He's a an abstractionist. And I'm a dialogue, action conflict. And together it was that's what Birdman is right? Either you have Michael Keaton and Emma Stone and you're not important, blah, blah, blah, get used to it. Or you have him eating bologna going, Oh, no, no, this play is chasing me around with a tiny arrow hit me and balls are Birdman flying. And that's the guy and the two of us just love each other's styles, even though we don't write in each other's styles. So we would laugh, you know? So we think Speaking for myself, I mean, I know Alejandro, I'm gonna, you know, I'll tell you a million ways why all 100 is a genius. But speaking for myself in this particular style, played right into my strength as a playwright. Right, of course. Yeah. dialogue scenes, clever, keeps moving. It's not elliptical. it for me, it was like going home, you know, to my plays. And I love that. So I focused on that. Nikko focus on the more esoteric, and Alejandro is a master of both. He's a master of the 5050 and two people in a room going at each other. And he's a master of the visual epic sweep move. But I think the best thing I can say about my partner Alejandro is that his guts, just don't lie to him. He knows in a way like when he and Chivo the RDP, course on him and Chivo are standing there and working it out. You just sit back and I don't know what to say. You you you just sit with your mouth shut and watch. It's a stunning thing to see happen. Their instincts are so pure and have adrenaline in them by all by themselves and that's what for me the best Birdman Birdman to you was what Goodfellas was to me when I saw it. Oh, you just pull yanked you into this world. And then you're in this world and you just don't get out of it. It's just strap in and go and I feel like Alejandro outside of the right I'm just talking about his direction. Did that like Birdman? Whether you like it or love and people love it and people hate it. Like I get both? I really do. But for the people who love it, I think it feels like that you got pulled into this ride and it's dark and it moves and you just don't know what's happening. It doesn't feel familiar in a way which is you know, really lovely. I think.

Alex Ferrari 30:34
And think I'm rare and rare these days.

Alexander Dinelaris 30:36
And rare. Yeah, I felt that last year about that about everything everywhere, which wasn't my favorite film, but I certainly loved it. But it felt like oh shit. Yes. Right. To rocks or boulders are speaking to each other. That's perfection like this.

Alex Ferrari 30:49
Are those hot dog hands?

Alexander Dinelaris 30:52
Why we're like get to the Lego we're good.

Alex Ferrari 30:56
No, no, that's Don't even get me started me to have the boys on the Daniels on before they were the Daniels and and just hearing the story of how that I'm like, You guys are insane. It's insane. It's at the moment, that movie since it was so wonderful. It was such a wonderful film as well. In you know, speaking of Chivo I mean, Chivo had a run their three three Oscars in a row, grab and Hunter had revenue. Yeah, not not not a bad run. And then other hundra had back to back. Oscars for Best Director, which I don't know if that has that happened before

Alexander Dinelaris 31:27
It has I think once or twice before I remember

Alex Ferrari 31:30
It's rare. It's a rarity. It's definitely not something that happens often working, when you're saying this, this thing and you're watching Chivo and, and 100 working on set, and they just know that they trust their gut. It sounds to me like they're just that thing that we all all the creatives all of us creatives do when we try to connect to the ether to connect to the source of whatever creativity is, it seems that they have a very strong connection to it. And they trust them implicitly implicitly, like they just because a lot of times as a writer or as a director, you second guess you kind of like oh, maybe maybe not. It sounds like these guys are like people. It's like watching the Beatles writing a song and those documentaries just like just to firing on all cylinders.

Alexander Dinelaris 32:15
Yes. That's that's I've been in the room. I mean, I've been privileged to be in the room. It's crazy. And I I think I want to be clear, because I you know, I know. And I've been friendly with with, you know, Alexandra Alfonso, Guillermo del Toro, GMO. I'll say this, if the world still around in 50 years, there are going to be full chapters in film books about that. These three guys. Oh, I've seen that period of time. And they make very different movies. But they all come from the same place. This one though, they're gonna call Mexican, Mexican cinema of the arts. Is this. Passionate? Like, it's not the genius of Paul Thomas Anderson, or the genius of the Cohens, which are massive geniuses. But the difference in style with the Mexicans, for me, is this lead by the gut. balls out the mistakes are part of the, you know, like I watched Todd's want to be that with Kate tar? No, yeah, it's it's perfection. It's I don't mean the story. I just mean, it's constructed in a way that's so perfect. And it's super wonderful. Our guys aren't like that. They're even when it's choreographed to an inch of its life, the mistakes are part of the joy of it, the the car chase famous car, Chase and city of men. You know, give everyone a sequence and Pan's Labyrinth that keeps cutting back and forth. Like, they just do things. And it's the totality of their instinct. That is what's right, not the perfection of what they're doing. Their stuff is pretty unbelievable. But you know what I mean? And I think that's what that's what this moment and those guys have in common this instinct like you said, this, this, this barometer that just, it just takes them the right way and or takes them somewhere.

Alex Ferrari 34:30
Right! I mean, you look at get on or you get off. Yeah, look again, most stuff. I mean, it's so yermo like there's just no, there's no one else on planet who can make a film now. Like and those are the best kind of filmmakers are you can't see anyone else making the avatar. Regardless, you can't see you can't see anyone else making et. Like you just can't see that. It's not possible. It's the DNA is so mixed. In that, you know, don't make it like, like, Spielberg couldn't make a Goodfellas. But it's not going to be Marty's Goodfellas. No, you know, and Marty could have made jaws. Right? It's just not going to be the same. That's right. I'm working with Alejandro now on so many projects, what is like the biggest lesson you've learned as a writer working with him?

Alexander Dinelaris 35:23
He has a, he has a bullshit meter, where you can write something really, really great. You know, and, you know, writers, we usually hate 90% of what we write, but you'll find something say, oh, that's, that's really great. And he's like, yeah, it's, it's really good. Really good. I'm not going to use it. Because I can do that whole thing you just did. If I just do this, the cameras go there. But it's great. Nice idea. What else do we have in here? Like? I just spent three weeks like what are you talking about? And then you're watching you're like, yep, yep. He was like, they have an amazing way to get past. Alessandra is an amazing, it's again, it's his truth meter. He just he just knows if it feels, you know, right or wrong, or whether it's an image or a line, he just, he has a knack. You know what? He comes from music. Like I like him. It was very much from music. I think he was when I was in the restaurant business. I think he was a DJ. But music means a lot to him. And that's how he I think that's his paradigm. He sees everything as this sort of rhythm and music and whether it's time for a dissonant note or harmony, Hill Hill Hill, no sort of injury. But that's that's what it feels like. And he's taught me to lean more on like, stop being so polished and stop saying everything. Say let's get down to the center of it. And he's made me better. I mean, he made me better instantly with with Birdman and even seen some beautiful. You know that that survived? He just makes me better.

Alex Ferrari 37:05
Now, I always like asking this question from people who've won Oscars. What was it like being in the center of the storm? That was Birdman, the whole pomp and circumstance, you're going to award shopto award show and everyone's You're the best, you're the greatest. This destroys most, most people it does in Hollywood, we've seen it 1000 times. How did you deal with being in the middle of this whole hurricane? Essentially, it's the Eye of the Storm essentially.

Alexander Dinelaris 37:35
Well, I think I think the greatest thing about being a screenwriter is that nobody knows who you are. You have to tell somebody, I was funny. I was at a funeral of my great aunt. She was like 100, and something years old. God bless her. And I was on somebody I hadn't seen in 20 years. My Armenian side of the family came up to me at the funeral was like, Oh my God, you're famous. I said I'm not famous. Like you're famous. We saw you on the Oscar. I'm nothing I'm nothing. I said what's your favorite movie that you ever saw on your whole life? And she said Shawshank Redemption, I said who wrote it I said What's your second favorite movie? Casablanca I was like who wrote it? Like nobody not like only movie people you know? Screenwriters. You get your under the radar plus there was me Nico Armando. Like we were all sneaking on the Alejandro you know, everybody's looking for him as the director as the offshore naturally. So it wasn't that crazy we we had the joy of being able to be part of it and still be able to enjoy it with our wives and like we had a ball of the Golden Globes we were getting drunk at the table we had a we had a ball the whole time we just had a ball because it wasn't it wasn't real it you know, we weren't under any pressure at all right? So it was fine like i i was there I'll show you I don't know if I can go get it for you but it's the start know if you if you go if you go to whatever YouTube wherever you watch the shisha you know Birdman winning Best Picture, whatever. We had one screenplay. Amazing. Alejandro had one director Chivo one. We were hoping Michael would win I am. So that's, that's. Yeah. But so we had done our thing. And then Best Picture. So Best Picture, you win and everybody goes up on stage. So now we're up there with Mr. Ed Norton. And you know, all of it. I'm like, nobody's looking at me like Arnon milchan Jim's constable the great producer. And I'm standing up there and like well, literally nobody at home or in this theater is looking at me. So you can see it in the YouTube video. I reach into my pocket and I take out my phone and I just go like I don't aim I just go like this. And I you know turn that camera really fat one click. I put it right back in my pocket. I'm like, I probably got you know somebody His feet, but I had to try it. Well, the picture that came out iPhone was this why?

Alex Ferrari 40:09
Oh my god that everyone who's listening you got to go onto YouTube and look at this. Well that is amazing.

Alexander Dinelaris 40:18
Holding the Oscar and the god light that's coming right down on it. And there's like Jared Leto and Clint Eastwood and my wife is out here in front of Harvey Weinstein and Anna Wintour in the red dress. Love word when I got that,

Alex Ferrari 40:31
Did you give that to I'm assuming you gave that to Alejandro

Alexander Dinelaris 40:33
I didn't give it to anybody. He asked me for it. I was like, Nope, that's my you want to visit that come to my house. But it was a wonderful moment. An example of like, I was just enjoying it. I was just, and there's. Yeah, it's so amazing. I would show you some other stuff. If this was a if we were on the video because there's a video of my friends who are all gathered in New York City in a basement 50 of my best friends. Yeah, and when we win, that's the only thing that ever made me cry that year. Was they sent me that that night at four in the morning, whatever. Oh, there's a video of them nervous. And then Eddie Murphy says Birdman. And they, overall, I mean, erupt and cry and laugh and they had one and made me so emotional. It's still one of my favorite moments.

Alex Ferrari 41:21
Oh, my God. Brother. That's it's it's fun. It was. It's fun. Now after you win the Oscar, then of course, everybody in town. You're one of the you're an Oscar winner. Now you're Yeah, you're an Oscar winning screenwriter, everybody, how does the town treat you different? Did it to you differently? Did it treat you the same? I mean, you're already You're not a kid. So you're I think you can handle whatever comes your way a bit better than if you were 20 and gotten that. Yeah.

Alexander Dinelaris 41:47
And I also lived through you know, not so great time. So I'm, like I said I I'm generally grateful. Um, yeah, things change, you know, the jobs become different. You make your agents job easier. Because they can go out and say, you know, it wasn't there were four of us credited on the film, so you know, but yeah, offer started cutting differently. And then once I got on zooms with people, they understood who I are or in person means they understood who I was, then it definitely created more work, obviously a little bit more money. And I don't have to pitch stuff as much anymore. I can if it's personal, but the biggest advantage is people come to you and say, Hey, how about this and you know, I tend to want to work with with like, young not young, but new filmmakers makes me happy like I just did Carmen which is out now with Benjamin VPN. That was his first feature he has an amazing I'm doing with resident there with Rene I'm doing the Puerto Rico film. Because I love the still searching for it. And then occasionally I'll do the you know, film Alejandro talking about doing something else now, but I'll do the other ones as well. But I get a now it's more I get to a little more ability to choose what I want to do and not have to hustle as it were. You know, as much as I used to thank God because I'm 55 So I don't know that the energy for it,

Alex Ferrari 43:18
Bro. You're telling me about a man. It's getting tough out here to hustle, keep keep that hustle, go. When when you wake up and you hear things popping and creaking Are you like Oh, hell

Alexander Dinelaris 43:30
Wake up to the bathroom.

Alex Ferrari 43:33
So this so the startup paid off for your wife essentially.

Alexander Dinelaris 43:36
Yeah, yeah, she's smart. She's a smart one.

Alex Ferrari 43:41
Yeah, my my wife was it my wife calls me the not an investment but not an endowment but a some sort of financial instrument that pays off years later. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, oh, it's finally starting to pay off. It's like it's all taken. Like yeah, it's a long term investment. This one this was Yeah.

Alexander Dinelaris 44:02
That's your to do. I'm 48 or 48 48

Alex Ferrari 44:09
And you and I walked over the same dead body, sir. Okay, so and our hunter was shooting them and like and then so you worked also as a co producer on the Revenant which is again another man he was just nailing these two things back to back. Yeah, back. I was just like, what is what is this man on? And can I get some? Like it was remarkable. You work as a co producer. I'm assuming you helped a little bit on the back end with the writing or polishing or

Alexander Dinelaris 44:42
I help with the story a little bit and we helped we advised on on that sort of thing and we're close to him when he when he needed us during that period. Would you want that? Nico went to set I was in New York. I was working on my musical and I was working with get them on something at the time. So I didn't get to go. But Nico went. And it was crazy all the stories and I would get the phone calls. But that's just another example of those two. Mainly, I don't think I'll ever do that. That. I mean, he just did Bardot, which was insane. But, like Revenant was like three hours of light. They're using all natural light. It's four degrees, they want to know they gotta go to Patagonia. Leo's going, you know, mething is way like a madman, like, he wanted to live at all like, he ate it up and live that I mean, I'm so glad he won for that. Because

Alex Ferrari 45:36
If he was he literally was going to kill himself until they gave him an Oscar for God's sakes, someone

Alexander Dinelaris 45:42
Tries to kill himself in revenue. I mean, he might as well as it was in the freezing water is eaten buffalo liver, like the guy's a maniac, an incredible actor, and I'm so glad they they rewarded him. But that was everybody just, you know, whatever, risking life and limb to to make a film. And I think you can see it in the in the imagery. I think you can see it in the film.

Alex Ferrari 46:03
I mean, the the the when I heard the stories coming out from the set, and I had a few friends of mine who worked here and I would hear stories. I'm like, This can't be like three hours of natural light. I mean, I know it's Chivo. And I mean, achiever I trust I but she's like, it's crazy. It's crazy. What's the craziest story that you could share publicly that you heard? We'll talk about the nonpublic hard

Alexander Dinelaris 46:29
The hard, right. Yeah. And the hard part is what we can say publicly.

Alex Ferrari 46:36
Because I, what I heard is that the he there was a ringing of a bell or something like that, or a siren once a day, to remind everybody what they were, why they were doing. Let's say we're doing something like that.

Alexander Dinelaris 46:48
It's Alejandroism of I don't know, trying to think of what because there's a lot of really good stories. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it. So. i Yeah, I'm not I'm gonna refrain from that question.

Alex Ferrari 47:01
Okay, well, after it's fine. You could tell it to me offline, but I'm telling you, I'm just started. Sure. It's, yeah, I'm gonna start a show one day and just record the things I get. The best stories ever, man,

Alexander Dinelaris 47:16
Gonna be the end of the year.

Alex Ferrari 47:18
No, no, I'll do that when I'm on like 90 And everyone's dead already.

Alexander Dinelaris 47:21
Yeah, very good.

Alex Ferrari 47:24
No, no, no, of course, of course.

Alexander Dinelaris 47:26
There were a lot of crazy stories. And a lot of it had to do with, you know, jumping into ice cold rivers, people thermal doctors on set. Like how hard they how hard they pressed. There's all you all you have to think about is if we talked about that window of light, if anybody here has ever listening has ever made a film. And you think about how much a setup is and what it takes. And if you think about that sort of opening sequence of The Revenant, even in cuts, that that battle scene, even if you contemplate it in cuts, and try to understand how that was all orchestrated within within windows of time, that would provide light it, it would seem insurmountable. Like how they did it? I'm still not. I have no idea.

Alex Ferrari 48:14
It's it's Yeah, it is. It is a masterpiece, to say the least. Now you have also been directing as well, you've directed features you've directed. Did you have a direct use direct to the future already?

Alexander Dinelaris 48:27
Right. I haven't directed my full insurance. I directed a long short about 35 minutes called in this time, based on a play I wrote. I'm set up to direct to direct my first feature, which is actually the adaptation of the play. I told you all 100 Read to find me in the first place, which is a play called still life. Yeah. We're just trying to tie up the actors. I have the just the genius DP, Luca Bigazzi who did like I've never lets on Young Pope. I mean, he's, he's a monster. And he read it and loved it. And has has told me he wants to do it. I have a really great production designer David Rockwell here in New York, who designs all of New York. It's a very New York piece. And we're just trying to sew up the actors. We have the financing, and God willing, I'll be able to announce something soon. And hopefully, next year, we'll finally we'll finally shoot it.

Alex Ferrari 49:25
Now, from the experience you have had on set as a director, there's always a day that we all feel like the entire world coming crashing down around us. I'm assuming that was every second up revenue. But yeah, yeah. What was that day for you? And how did you overcome it?

Alexander Dinelaris 49:42
I think that was that was my first day. I had some, I had three excellent actors. We had a scene that was in a bar with two terrific actors, an intimate scene. dialogue heavy, hard and I had a DP, who was excellent. Who His name is Barry Markowitz? I'll say it. He's great. He shot Crazy Heart shot. Shot the apostle. Yes. Oh yeah. And he did this job for me for like, you know, $8 in a sandwich. Because he liked the script. And he wanted to work together. He was he's a great guy. But he's big personality. And he was on set. And then I had these producers that were wandering around on set, and I just didn't have control of it. And it was my first day on a, on any sort of feature short or long, short film, but it was my first day, and I didn't know how to stand up and how to take control. And things just spiraled one by one. People started in a vacuum. In my absence, they started making decisions that were contradictory. And I was, you know, it was a whole thing. And we got through it, and we got a good, we got good takes out of it, thank God. But the next day, you know, I thought long and hard about it that night. And the next morning, I got the whole set together. I said, Whatever went wrong yesterday is all on me. But it's not happening again. And this is how it's gonna go. And they responded, my whole crew was amazing. And they were, I think they were grateful to hear it. So it really is a lesson for me. Because when I'm directing theater, I'm entirely comfortable. But I think my self doubt about, you know, I'm not going to talk to you. I don't understand the full ramification of a lens choice, like I understand the basics, but I don't understand the full ramifications of it. And I felt like since I didn't I wanted to do defer, but then when you defer too much, it falls down around you. So I learned right away that you just want to be specific about look, this should feel claustrophobic. This should feel like you can't escape the cage of this table. And then your cinematographer says, Ah, okay, in that case, we're going to use this and we're going to and all sudden, they're lighting and they're like now now now we have so it's really even if you don't know the specifics, as long as you know, the action of the scene, the feeling of the scene what you want from it, and you and you and you have good people and you explain that you find things get better but my first day felt like a landslide getting away from me and I was a horrible helpless feeling. Thank God

Alex Ferrari 52:27
What is it is it is It's brutal. My friend is trying to make your day.

Alexander Dinelaris 52:33
Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 52:34
That that that that dragon is just coming after you every second that comes down lights going down? Yeah. Oh, t you got it. Oh, no, I can't go into it. We can't afford it. No, no, no, no, no, it's yeah, it's brutal, man. Now I have to ask you because I am of Cuban descent, sir. Yes. and a half to ask you what it was like, working with the legendary glorious glory. I mean, I mean, Gloria and Emilio. I grew up in Miami. I remember when Miami Sound Machine hit. Dude, it was a phenomenon. In the 8586.

Alexander Dinelaris 53:10
I tried to explain to people my youngest

Alex Ferrari 53:12
It was just a phenomenon. Yeah, and funny. Funny side note, my first job in Miami as an editor was for the director of all of those early music videos. Oh, really? Rhythms gonna get you get on your feet? I'm not sure if he did. The very I don't think he did. Dr. Bonga. If he didn't document, I don't think he did Ganga, but. But he was there. So he you know, and everybody who works that Kenneth Arrow, Arrow, Arrow, Arrow. Anyway, so I was growing up, man, like when conga hit like it was a phenomenon. It was absolute phenomenon

Alexander Dinelaris 53:54
Every every wedding and Bar Mitzvah in the countries still. It was that was a little crazy for me. Um, alright. So by the way, for the record, you're talking about the Broadway musical I wrote on your feet for them about their life story. And now you'll be happy to know that we're working on the film version now. So that should be really fun. It was amazing. I met them. My friend Nick scan dahlias, who's a producer for the needle and organization on Broadway had seen the scene a reading of the bodyguard that I'd written the other musical for the West End. And I guess, you know, he knew I was Latino or half Latino. And he saw that I had done like what they call jukebox musical with Whitney's music. He said, we come down to Miami and I said, I don't think I'm gonna, you know, I was busy and like, I don't think I'd be able to do it. And so just come down and talk to them. So they need to know what it's what it be like. And I went down I talked to them. And for me, it was something else too. Like, you know, I grew up like, I have a very, I mean, yes. I have a funny story about GLORIA But at all. I can tell that when we've talked about that, sorry, first of all, I love them and they're like family to me like, I love them. Amigo, the whole family Emily and naive as well. So I met her and I'm gonna do and they were talking about I said, Well, if it was me, I would tell the writer who's going to do this. And I would say this, because I did all the research, I read their books, they sent me all the DVDs, I did the bio like, and I said, Oh, and if it was me, I would tell the writer and somehow I got to the end of it. And Gloria is like you keep saying, You're gonna tell the writer, but she's like, I want you to be the writer. And I was like, Gloria, I told Nick, I'm just not sure I was doing Revenant is helping with revenue. And at the time, I was doing some things. I was like, I'm just not. And she's like, well, blah, blah. And by the time we're done, we're in the parking lot. And Gloria is, you know, she's not a very, she's not giant, in a in a height. manner. She's giant in other ways. In other ways in almost every other way. Her heart is giant, and our personality is giant, and her talent is giant, but she's short. And I remember her in the parking lot from their offices in Miami looking up at me. And she's like, your mother's Mark Cuban, right. I was like, yeah, she just looked at me. She didn't. Don't disappoint her. And I was like, going, yo, what do I do now? I like once I got to the airport. I call my agent. I said, I think I'm doing the the Stefan musical and he was like, really? I was like, I think I'm doing it because the minute I told my mother, I would have been done.

Alex Ferrari 56:36
No, no, that that was a very mafioso style. When

Alexander Dinelaris 56:39
She went for me she went for and thank God she did because it turned out to be one of my favorite experiences. We're still friends to this day. She's a beautiful human being. The story I tell which is slightly embarrassing. Oh god, is that I went to her. She's at her house. She has this place she calls the lair. And she

Alex Ferrari 56:59
The one on the one on Star Island. Is this she used to live in?

Alexander Dinelaris 57:01
Yeah. So a side house and has this loft. And that's where all computers and stuff isn't. She was doing this, like vlog this sort of. And she invited me to be on to talk about on your feet. So I went we didn't know each other that well then. And we were just talking and she was like, Oh, we're talking about the musical and doing research. And she's like, No, it's like this video. Which videos did she show me?

Alex Ferrari 57:25
Like a music video that she did?

Alexander Dinelaris 57:26
A music video. It was one of the later ones little ballad but she's in the white shirt with black, you know, with the tight. You had I don't know what I was thinking because I'm 50 right here. But I looked at I was like, oh my god, I had the biggest crush on you. As if I just remembered and then I realized, oh shit, I'm sitting with Gloria Steinem. I don't want to sound like a creep. Like,

Alex Ferrari 57:49
You didn't say that out loud. You just

Alexander Dinelaris 57:51
I said it out loud with my mouth hole. And I immediately must have turned like, brick red. And I was like, I don't mean that in the best. She's like, darling, I will take it anywhere. I could get it. Like I was like, Oh my god. It came right out of my mouth. I was looking at her going, Oh, I remember being like, really attracted to you. Yeah, in my teenage years being really attracted to you.

Alex Ferrari 58:14
You and me both brother though. It's just, there's nothing. There's no shame. There's

Alexander Dinelaris 58:19
Still gorgeous. Now. She's gorgeous. No kidding. We had a ball and got did my mother ever win it all right, because she got to go to the premiere. She I think my mother has seen that show more than me and Gloria I think it's possible. Like my mother has seen that show. Like, it goes to Miami. She sees it too. And they're playing a little little tiny theater up in Jupiter. She wants to go

Alex Ferrari 58:41
Listen, bro, listen, I was listen, I was when I was coming up in Miami. I was an editor and I was editing basic commercials and music videos and things every all the big stuff that was going on down in Miami. And I got to work with I did a lot of stuff for Univision and Telemundo and that kind of stuff too. And I did. I did one with cheat with Don Francisco. I did a commercial with Don Francisco from South Elgin. Bro, if I tell you when I told my parents that I had met somebody I haven't met Don Francisco. I'm editing a commercial with don't know, the entire Cuban family knew that like oh my god, Alex is famous. College is people in Havana knew that. Yeah.

Alexander Dinelaris 59:27
Yeah. Yeah, you can imagine when I brought my family back to you.

Alex Ferrari 59:32
Can you imagine that? Oh my god, that must have been

Alexander Dinelaris 59:36
She's the sweetest like, I can't even explain. I can't even explain it. She's so loving. She's such a good person. It didn't matter who you brought. Because when we were on Broadway that in the marquis theatre there was this little this very funny. There's this little room they put aside to that a little bar and Amelia would just be making, you know, rum and cokes for me and him and like we all like there was a party in that room. Oh, Um, that room that Gloria called the g spot, by the way. That was her name. That was her name for that thing. She's, uh, you know, mostly most men can't find it. So we'll be here on our own. Wow, glorious joke. It was very funny. But we used to stay there. And it didn't matter. Like one time, I had this lady who took care of our kids and she was Caribbean. Lady Doris, and she was just a ginormous Gloria fan. And I was like, I got it. So I brought it. And Gloria has a room full of important people. But she spends 15 minutes of a 30 minute or 20 minute intermission talking to these two, and I'm like this lady. That's how good this lady and they mean, they're just the most approachable, lovely human beings ever want to meet.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:52
My father was telling me like he used to see Gloria and Emilio like, at like malls, trying to get their like playing music before they like Right. Just trying to get themselves up off the ground. Yeah, like yeah, oh, yeah, we know, we've seen we saw them coming up, and then that's when conga hit and

Alexander Dinelaris 1:01:08
They were playing weddings and Bar Mitzvahs in Miami. While they were selling out arenas in South America. It was crazy.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:16
The story because it because they weren't famous here yet.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:01:20
Yeah, you got to see that you got to see the either the show when it comes by or the or I'll take the next time. It's there. It comes around all the time. Oh, my

Alex Ferrari 1:01:27
God. Oh, God. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? So I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests, my friend. Yeah. What advice would you have for a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Alexander Dinelaris 1:01:41
Try to make it worthwhile and not cliched. I think don't, don't try to write for somebody else. Because most people out there are doing that. So if you write with your own personality, like your talent is your talent. Nobody knows how talent you are aren't. Nobody knows, people will make choices on what they think your work is, but they just don't know. So the one thing I say is original voices tend to find their way through the one advantage a screenwriter has that other disciplines of the arts don't have is if you write original good scripts, solidly structured, good characters, solid dialogue, if you write that you're gonna work. If you get anywhere near a door and get through it, you're going to work as opposed to an actor, you're like, Well, you have that mole on your face, you're five, seven, I need 511 you're, you know, writers, it's like, substance wins more than anything else. So be yourself as much as you can. Because the minute you try to write like what you think they want to hear, you have 70 other writers out of 80 doing the same thing. And nobody, you'll never, you can't stand out. And it won't matter because it's that's not your talent, that's you imitating somebody else's talent. So I would say try to be true to yourself, hear your voice. Don't fake it. And don't manipulate your characters. Like don't be objective to them. When when you're writing a scene that was a big thing for me. Well, it is put yourself in their place. Don't. Don't say he says to her, she says to him, don't look at it from out here. Take his point of view, hear her feel what you feel right that take her point of view, feel what you feel, you have to be a little bit of a method actor about it when you're writing scenes and dialogue. And then of course, you know, as much of Aristotle as you can digest is amazing action, conflict, reverse and, you know, surprising inevitability, those things are crucial. And you'd be shocked how many times you don't see them in a scene. When you ask a writer well, who wants what from whom, and who has the action in the scene and they Well, and you're like, well, that's why it's not popping right there. So that's my best advice. Really, I think

Alex Ferrari 1:03:56
If you had a chance to go into a time machine and go back in time, and talk to that little guy at the beginning of your life, what advice would you give him?

Alexander Dinelaris 1:04:04
So I mean, hold on. Hold on, it's, I know how bad it is. I know you can't believe it. But this crazy thing is going to happen if you just keep holding on and and I would have said that to myself as a little kid. And I would have said that to myself as a teenager. And I would have said to myself at age 24 Like when it was dark, just you just just hang on and keep believing and keep being good to people and keep it try to be good to yourself. That's what I would have told them.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:37
And obviously don't walk off a beautiful.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:04:41
Please don't walk off a set with a famous director on your first film and Hollywood pompous idiot. I would have said that to

Alex Ferrari 1:04:49
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Alexander Dinelaris 1:04:54
In life, I'm still learning it, which is to forgive myself. You're super hard on myself, my inner monologue is horrifying. Um, I'm trying to fix that, you know, every day I have two little kids now I have an 11 and a 12 and a nine, a Molly and Elena. But I'm, I've been terrible to myself. And I need to I need to not be in the industry. It was be passionate. inspire people don't impress them. Right? Sometimes we try to impress somebody, but you don't want to impress them. Like when I talk about somebody asked me about a film, I say, Well, I would do it this way. I speak the same way. I'm speaking to you. Now. I'm like, I will hear I'm gonna like Alejandro, maybe that's why we got along, because that's how I describe scripts. So inspire people don't don't try to impress them. And then finally, I do have to say it. Those simple Aristotelian principles have carried me so far. The idea of surprising the inevitable conclusions to beat scenes, entire films. Holy shit, I can't believe that happened. Of course that happened, right? That if I was paying attention, I would have known and you think about your favorite sort of narratives, narrative films, and you're going to find that Pan's Labyrinth right? Holy shit, I can't believe she's down. Oh, of course, I wasn't, you know, everything. Usual Suspects the godfather to Birdman when he, of course, holy shit. Of course, if you were paying attention, I would, you would have seen it. That rule carries you a long way. If you can write cleverly into it. The thing I told you about manipulating your scenes about being outside them when they talk, that's a big deal. And an action complex. So I don't think it's one of the behind the, I'm not going to get up again. But there's this is all navy blue, because there's a movie screen in here. But behind the Oscar and it's a navy blue cover is my poetics, my Aristotle's poetics. I keep it right behind the Oscar to remind myself that that thing has nothing to that's nothing but luck and the grace of God and a gift for my family. But what's behind that was what got me a chance at that lottery was that book that's behind it, and it meant it's changed. It changed my life. And I didn't start as a writer I I became one and that was it.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:31
And the hardest question of all my friend three of your favorite films of all time?

Alexander Dinelaris 1:07:35
Oh, God. Today, today, no, they haven't changed in a long time. Okay. Amadeus forms, Amadeus Goodfellas. Which I don't I just remember seeing three times the first day it opened, then I didn't know what the hell was going on. And then it gets a little harder. Godfather is ridiculous. But I love you know, love Moonstruck love just makes my heart explode with envy for John, the writer,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:13
Nick Cage.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:08:20
The other thing for writers out there as well is is don't not get your stuff out there even when like I'm a mentor in the Writers Guild program. And I'm producing a film right now in New Mexico from a Colombian queer identifying writer director named Alessandra la Carozza. She was my, one of my interesting in the Writers Guild mentors program. I was a mentor. She wasn't my mentee, but she was in the program. And I told them in a group, there was about 20 of them, and I told them, I have a development company. So if you have a script that you're proud of, and you want to send it to me, send it to me, just make sure that it's your last draft, not your first for now, make sure that there's no typos. Like don't do any. Don't send me anything that tells me you were careless. But if you send it, it'll get read. And out of about 15 or 20 of them.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:08
She was the only one

Alexander Dinelaris 1:09:10
Either one or two. That sent it. Well, it turns out she's gonna have a story like my story because right now, they're in pre production in New Mexico. President is starring in her film. Leslie grace is starring in her film. She's directing it, it's a little budget, it's gonna be about 2 million, but it came because she had the balls to to have the script, be proud of it. And then I read it. I was like, I love the script. I showed it to a bunch of people. They love the script, and now we're producing her first feature. That's an awesome, great, so be brave, you know, and don't Don't be cynical, like, be brave. And yeah, you said it before. Surround yourself with other artists. Surround yourself with people. The more people the more you have a chance to climb weird stairways.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:58
Alex, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been such an honor and privilege and and just hilarious talking to you my friend and I feel like I didn't get myself in trouble. No, I you know those are the best interviews when I when I hear the guests Oh God, I hope I didn't say something I shouldn't have said. That's always the best conversations. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. You want the asker ready? It's fine. I can retire. You're gonna be there. You did. You're good. All you gotta do is take when you rent is due to show them the Oscar and they they don't even charge you. It's the way it works right.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:10:31
Beat him with it. It's really kill them, bury them.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:35
Thank you. Thank you for not only being on the show, brother for being an inspiration to so many writers out there, my friend. I appreciate you man.

Alexander Dinelaris 1:10:41
All right, brother. Thank you.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 306: Making Quentin Tarantino’s Lost First Feature Film with Andy Rausch

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:12
I'd like to welcome to the show Andy Rausch man, how you doing, Andy?

Andy Rausch 0:15
Hey, how's it going, man?

Alex Ferrari 0:16
I'm good, man. I'm good. Thank you so much for your patience. On forgetting it's getting us together. It's been. It's been a minute, but we're here now. It's been a it's been a little while, but Oh, good things, you know, all good things come to, for those who waits to get this thing together. So we're on here. Now I was scanning the the the World Wide Web the other day. And I came across your book about the making of Quentin Tarantino's first, quote unquote, feature. And I was fascinated that someone took the time to dig into the unreleased film, my best friend's birthday, which I've spoken about a bit on the on the show and also written a couple articles about it. And done in just in there's there's some of it available online to people to watch and stuff. But I really love to get into the into the weeds on it. So for those who don't know, where Quintin got his start, can you kind of talk a little bit about his origins and getting into into this project?

Andy Rausch 1:25
Okay, well, one of the things that the book focuses on in some of the the even earlier projects that Clinton had worked on my best friend's birthday was the first one that he directed, but he'd helped out and on some other films, it was basically the, essentially the same crew that worked on those. And so really, it evolved. So he worked on these are no budget movies, shot in people's backyards on you know, basically on video, and and these were in the early 80s. And, like, there's one where, you know, Quinn's the bad guy, and everybody talks about it, but there's no, you know, they were like, He's great. But you know, there's no, there's no footage left of it. And, you know, that was, I believe, directed by alcohol, which is a member of that group that everybody talks about outs passed on now. But um, you know, and I think that was kind of a mix of, I'm trying to remember. It was kind of like assault on precinct 13. Meat, something else I can't even remember. But then like Quinn, and I think Craig Hammond who co wrote my best friend's birthday, were the bad guys, if I remember correctly in that movie, and they don't exist anymore.

Alex Ferrari 2:37
they don't exist anymore. And they don't, none of those footage exists anymore.

Andy Rausch 2:41
No, not as far as I know. And he worked on some other stuff here in there. So he ends up getting them Well, not really even getting the money, he ends up getting the desire to make his own movie. So he talks to his friend Craig Hammon, they come up with this idea. So they're going to make a movie, they have no money, Quentin works a minimum wage job, as everybody knows that video archives. They have no money, but they have this, this desire. So Craig writes a script at the time for my best friend's birthday, which is a very, very short script at the time. And it's a screwball comedy, which that's one of the things I find interesting here is that not only could I with this book, shark, the evolution of Quentin, as a filmmaker, as a writer, as you know, a creative, but also, it's interesting, because we as we think of him as Mr. Gun, you know, he talked about that one time, everybody thinks of me, as Mr. Gun, he does crime, or he does Western something where, you know, people are going to get shot and all that good stuff. And, but this was a screwball comedy. So then, and so Craig writes a script, when it comes in and expands it, somewhat, rewrites it, but then they go out and they shoot and they have to shoot piece by piece by piece. They're out stealing shots, because they can't afford, you know, locations that can and well, and what's funny, I'm skipping around, but on the film that they shot before that Warzone. There was a time when they were there that's detailed in the story in the book and is very funny, where they were stealing shots. And so they all have these guns, and they're, you know, supposed to be tough guys, and there's a motorcycle and the cops show up and, and aim their guns at everybody and make them lay down on the ground. And what's really funny, and this is the great part about an oral history, where it's all told in the dialogue, is it some of the people are like, you know, I Clinton's like, we weren't scared at all. And if someone else is like, we were all crying and you know, and it's just it's completely different. These different takes on in an oral history is great, because it gives you this Rashomon kind of story where you have all these different perspectives which which are different generally, even if it's something that just happen But when you you take a story that happened in the 1980s, and you tell it, you know, you're gonna get different versions of that. So anyway, they're making my best friend's birthday on Quinn's minimum wage salary. on film. on film. There's right on film. Yes, they're shooting this one on film. And so they're just shooting it little by little over time. I guess a lot of the scenes, they end up improvising or they take a nugget of what was in the script. And they, they come up with something new. So at the time, Clinton's acting teacher was Alan Garfield, who's in a lot of great films like the stunt man, and, you know, things like Beverly Hills Cop to all kinds of stuff. And so he gets Alan Garfield to do a scene. He gets Brenda Hillhouse, who is one of his acting teachers from his first acting school to come and do this scene with Alan Garfield, and Brenda and people will remember from from dusk till dawn, she's the one that they kidnap. And Richie kind of gets a little creepy with her. And you know, when George Clooney Seth comes back, there's blood everywhere. And that's what's left. Oh, yeah. Also in his er episode, and she's the mother of little bush, in the famous Christopher Walken. I had a watch in my ass thing. Yeah. And so anyway, he gets these, this is a one of the most telling representative scenes of how they had to shoot with no budget. So they needed for this scene, there's a bakery, but they they don't have a bakery. So they shoot it in video archives when nobody's around. So then it becomes a video store slash bakery. Which No, that doesn't make any sense. But it's funny, because you know, and I've worked on micro films, I've worked on some some shitty promo movies. And, you know, this is a thing you have to you know, adapt, improvise, make these things work. And not only that, but

they made Allen Garfield's character named Bill Smith, after William Smith, the great actor, who was one of when he was sitting on one of our movies, but he was one acquaintance favorite actors. So it becomes a Bill Smith video store slash bakery. And you don't they do this scene and again, kind of representative. So Alan Garfield brings his dog he's an acquaintance quote that he tells me for the book was, he's one of those guys. He's one of those bring your puppy around, you know, those guys. And, and Clinton says it very respectfully because he loved Alan Garfield, but the dog gets into the case and eats the cake. While they're they're doing the dialogue scene, then when they need the cake, the cakes eaten by the dog. And I mean, it's just a kind of a comedy of errors.

Alex Ferrari 7:51
Now, you you interviewed you, you and you actually interviewed Quinn for part of this book? Yeah.

Andy Rausch 7:56
Yeah. I had tried to interview Quentin for years. I met him in 1999 it when he used to do the film festivals in Austin, at Rick Linklaters. Yeah, thing. They were the first Alamo Drafthouse. And I was working on my first book was supposed to be about printing. And I think I kind of scared Quentin away at that time, because Jamie Bernard was writing the intro. And Quinn had a falling out with Jamie Bernard, who wrote his first biography. So I kind of think what happened was, he associated me with her, and he didn't want to be involved. He was very nice. But all of a sudden, people were calling back saying, I'm not supposed to talk to you. And so I knew kind of what was going on. I kept working on the book on and off. did more books. I mean, I've got 46 books out this year, I think and God bless you. Life otherwise, but so anyway, and I was gonna do this book on all acquaintance films, because at the time I started, there were two biographies. It was one by winsley Clark's and there was the one by Jamie Barnard but I wanted to do a kind of a companion to the film's which is funny now to think because I started that in 1997 when all there was was, you know, that he directed was Reservoir Dogs Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown, then you know, it's also going into True Romance Natural Born Killers, God Natural Born Killers that and, um, and, you know, from dusk till dawn and True Romance. So anyway, I worked on this book on and off for a million years, I picked up this book called Quentin Tarantino FAQ. Well, is the same book. So I ended up just throwing that book out. And I couldn't be interviews I had done with a lot of cool people like Monte Hellman and Roger Avery. Tom savini. I went ahead and I put it out a few years ago. That was my first book on Tarantino. So that's called conversations on Quentin Tarantino. Right that came out in the night. 2015 2016 Now we kept trudging forward and and it all came together, man.

Alex Ferrari 10:08
So Alright, so you're so they're starting to shoot this thing. And for my understanding the lore is that they shot this over like a year or something like that or

Andy Rausch 10:17
more. It was several years, I don't remember specifically,

Alex Ferrari 10:21
I was a while, it was like, on the weekends, whenever I'm whenever they can, like, grab enough money to buy some film stock or some short ends to go shoot this thing.

Andy Rausch 10:29
Right? Well, then people's hair would change, it would become longer, shorter, longer, you know, you know, all of these different things. You know, the lead actress, she moved away, and then they had to have her come, she was teaching, they had to have her come back.

Alex Ferrari 10:47
So it didn't I mean, I've heard this story 1000 times from so many filmmakers that I've interviewed over the years, but hearing it the kwinter and team have started like, it's so it's so much it's so much fun. Because, you know, in so many ways, you know, quitting is arguably one of these mythical filmmakers. He's, he's one of you know, he's he's one of the most interesting filmmakers of his generation, let alone and all the film history. So he's almost at that kind of like mount Hollywood or a guard on Mount Hollywood. But to know that he started like us mortals. It's interesting, too, it's always interesting to see how they got started, because most people just think he just showed up with Reservoir Dogs and exploded and that was the end of it. But it took a while to get there. Now, when he was putting this all together, they basically were financing this through Quinn's minimum wage job at a video store.

Andy Rausch 11:40
Right. And I think some of the other people would occasionally chip in money. But it was pretty much just with his minimum wage job. And who it was to save up for a month or two to be able to rent the camera for a night, then they'd shoot for 24 hours straight in or whatever they could write, you know, when on short ends and

Alex Ferrari 11:59
right, and how did they edit this over? they edited this on flatbed?

Andy Rausch 12:03
Well, that's part of the problem. You know, so Quentin waits a long time to edit it, because they had to. Yeah, they had to hire somebody to edit. So they hire somebody to help edit at one point, but that didn't really work out. Well. Quinn ends up renting a flat bed, and finding out eventually that the movie wasn't what he thought it was. And that's kind of the we'll get there, I'm sure. But that's sort of the story of where the movie ends up being. I wanted to say two things about this book. One, I thought it was important because I wanted to show the evolution of him as a filmmaker, people think, as you said that you just somebody that's that gifted just evolves from the you know, they're they just pop out of the womb, and they're fully formed. And that's not the case, you know, with anybody I had seen. There was a lot of talk about Stanley Kubrick's first film, your desire. Yeah. Right. And, you know, in Stanley tried to suppress that coming out later on. But it's important because again, it's a documentation of his, like, it doesn't take away from the things he did later on. It only helps us to see his evolution as an artist. And so there was a time I tried to get Quentin for this book. Couldn't get him, I made my last plugin. I said, I think you probably want to suppress this, but you shouldn't. And here's why. yada, yada, yada. But I was interesting. When I interviewed him, he said, No, I don't want to suppress this, like Quentin still loves this movie. He knows it's problematic. But he loves it. And he still has most of it. The other thing I wanted to get to was, is that what this book is really about, because people think well, how can a whole book just be about this movie? And that's true. So what this book actually is, is it in three parts. The first part is sort of the biggest thing we've seen on Clinton's life. And all of those people in his sphere, leading up to my best friend's birthday, it's called I think it's been a while since I wrote it, I think it's it's something like the players come together. And what it is, it's, again, the most detailed look at video archives, all of that, Roger Avery. And you know, I interviewed all of these people for the book, including Avery whom I've interviewed several times, and, and it's a really cool book, but it shows how they all met, and then you know how they get to a place where they're going to make movies. Then the second part is them making movies. So it starts out with all of the little movies they work on, and how they get to my best friend's birthday. And then kind of just a blow by blow of as best anybody can reassemble. What that shoot was like, as told by Greg Hammond, Quentin Tarantino, Roger Avery, and all of the cast that was still alive that I could find and then The third part looks at the existing script. And it kind of with some running commentary, and it kind of shows us what that movie might have been. Now it's important to point out the script that is floating around everybody always thinks when they find it Oh, I found the script you know and but this script that's floating around is not actually the script. It's the closest back silmo assembly there is but what it actually is is when later on when Craig Hammond option the screenplay to Don Murphy, which is a whole other math that a lot of us probably know parts of this book details

Alex Ferrari 15:36
that well, what what was that? So the option this script to somebody else?

Andy Rausch 15:41
Well, what happened was Don Murphy who was quaintance enemy, who is the producer of Natural Born Killers, they had had that big falling out over Natural Born Killers. He is the guy that Quinten quote unquote, bitch slapped in a restaurant, and again ended up in a big lawsuit. So So Don Murphy,

Alex Ferrari 16:00
Murphy, bitch slap Quinn, when bitch slap, don't Murphy, that makes more sense,

Andy Rausch 16:04
I've got everybody's consensuses is that the main reason Don Murphy wanted to option this script was the piske went north. So he goes to Clinton's old writing partner who loves Clinton to this day and never wanted to screw Clinton over. But he went to him and he dangled money over his head and rock and and Craig thought this was going to be great for everybody. He thought it was gonna be great for him and Quinn, and it really didn't work out that way. Quintin blew up, and, you know, he got into a fight and, and that's documented in the book, too. But I'm in everybody's words. But at that time, what Craig did was essentially take all of the things that they improvised and wrote them into script form also. So it becomes this script that is sort of a kind of a weird bastardization of all of the forms of script that had existed and also the improvised scenes, and with Craig actually writing little things to kind of link some of the scenes together that there was no link for, because there were things that they ended up shooting that weren't in the original script. So it's kind of a, it's interesting to imagine what might have been, but we don't fully know what might have been

Alex Ferrari 17:15
so so then, but then eventually, obviously, done, Murphy did. So

Andy Rausch 17:18
Tom Murphy did get the rights to this to the script. He did. And there was a time when I knew Don a little and I'd asked him about the script. And he pretty much just admitted, I don't remember what his words are. And I don't want to get sued, because he is a TGS. Guy. But he basically admitted to the effect that that was why he optioned it, he had said that it was never going to get made. And I think it was known from the beginning, it wasn't really going to get made.

Alex Ferrari 17:46
So so then just on the in the, in the, in the in the timeline here, when my best friend's birth, my best friend's birthday is being shot, Quinn wrote True Romance and Natural Born Killers during this time.

Andy Rausch 17:59
Right. And those were originally one screenplay called the open road, which was something like a 600 page 500 page script. And what it was was you had the characters, most of those are kind of similar thematically, right, like True Romance and Natural Born Killers. We have the man and the woman some kind of criminal on the run. Okay. So in the original, the open road script. He has Clarence in Alabama, from True Romance, your story, but in the middle of they're doing these things. Also writing a screenplay, and that screenplay is Natural Born Killers. So it would go back and forth between as I'm told I've not seen that right. I have no idea if it you never really even know if these things really exist. You get bits and pieces of different people's stories, but that's what it's supposed to be so so

Alex Ferrari 18:55
then Natural Born Killers A True Romance were four together which I've never heard before. And by the way, I'm interested in seeing that movie. Look to see this eight hour miniseries. That would be so but then he broke those apart and sold those separately and he got some money for those if I'm if from what I said like it was the most money he'd probably ever seen at that point.

Andy Rausch 19:18
Right. And I would still contend True Romance is one of his. It's one of my favorites of His love, even though you know, he would have done different things than Tony Scott did. I still think it's brilliant in its way. And you know, when I said thumbs down to Natural Born Killers, it's only because I think Quinn's original script for Natural Born Killers is great. But the thing that Oliver Stone made is kind of a mess. There are people that love it love aspects of it. I think it's a huge mess. It's a big experimental student film with, you know, several million dollar budget. But

Alex Ferrari 19:51
yeah, no, exactly. I Well, I would have been very interested to see the Quinn natural born killer script, originally but what Oliver did was with Oliver But with but with that said, to romance when they released the like 10 disc, you know, Master collection of Quinn's work, they included romance as part of his filmography. That's how much love he has for that film. And he actually does a commentary track on entre romance talking about what he just loved what Tony did. And I mean, the scene between walking in and hopper. I mean, this is probably one of the best scenes in movie history. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, it's it's remarkable. I mean, it was absolutely remarkable. So you're so he's making so during his selling the scripts, so he's trying to get into Hollywood, and trying to make a name for himself. And he knows where he wants to go. But he's trying he's, he's struggling. When When did he actually how old was he? When he actually finally did reservoir? Because he wasn't a young guy at I mean, young,

Andy Rausch 20:56
in his 30s. I don't remember exactly. But he was his early 30s. He and I'm, I don't even want to say I'm 48. So he's 28. And you know, and so by that time, he's in his 30s. And I mean, God bless him good for him that, you know, he made that breakthrough. You know, it's funny another thing to talk about real quick. Is that true romance went through a couple of hands too, before it got made because Samuel had died a was originally at the producer was going to make it as a low budget film. And at one time Oh, what is this thing? I can't think of his name the the director of like maniac and maniac cop. William Lustig was going to direct it. At one point, I tried to get Lustig to talk for the book, but I and I get it, he doesn't want to talk about it. I'm sure. That would have been interesting. Cuz that would have been a whole other level of low budget. And, you know, what that movie would have been?

Alex Ferrari 21:54
Yeah, it's just, it's always very, it's kind of like, Oh, it's like going back to Kubrick's and like, oh, would have been interesting to see his Holocaust film. It would have been interesting to see his Napoleon. Like, you know, you see these amazing artists, you're like, Oh, those are the paintings that never got painted. kind of thing. And now, so what so with with going back to my best friend's birthday, so it's taken him a few years to get this thing together. He's edited it together now. Where what happened to her there was a fire, that part of it was lost. What was that story about?

Andy Rausch 22:31
Okay, so the story up until this book has always been that there was a fire that lab fire that destroyed significant parts of the film. Now, as I'm proud of myself, I find out in this book that is not true. And even get Quentin to admit it. Okay, so what basically, there was some stuff destroyed, but it was so minimal that it didn't change the course of the film. What actually kind of kills the film, is it takes quite a long time. He's starting to, when he's editing it, he sees what he's a god. You know, and he talks about it at length in the book. It's not what he thought it was gonna be, he thought it was gonna be like, she's got to have it. Or one of these, you know, Richard Linklater kind of movie, this low budget, indie thing, and, and it's kind of a mess. And he's heartbroken and he's devastated. And he says that the writers of the Autobot of the biographies kind of came up with the story, that there was a lab fire but other people involved with the movie say that he told them there was a fire, kind of, I think maybe to just calm everybody down, get them off of the the truth of the matter is it went on for so long, he's starting to get some success. I don't blame him for eventually, you know, shelving it because even at its best, this movie would have never stacked up, it would have never fit on a shelf alongside, you know, True Romance, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, those movies, the script is brilliant. There are scenes of brilliance that are written by both, you know, Craig and Quentin together, each of them separate. There are some brilliant moments in that script. The dialogue is amazing. But what was being put on film wasn't. But when learned from it, he learned how to direct actors. He learned these things. And there's a line that Quentin says in the book, I'm gonna screw it up, but I will get to the eventual heart of it. Quentin says very proudly of himself, and rightfully so. He says, I'm proud of myself, and I'm proud of this movie, because you know what, everyone else who would have made this movie and seen what it was, after all these years, would have given up and I didn't go, I didn't give up. I kept going, and I let that fuel me instead of sitting around mourning the loss of this movie and, and he's right, you know, he's absolutely right.

Alex Ferrari 24:52
Yeah, I mean, because I mean, it's I look, I mean, I've been a filmmaker for 20 odd years, I completely I completely feel I completely like sometimes you look at stuff You're just like, Oh, this is it's this is not what was in my mind. I didn't get I didn't get the crew that I needed. I didn't have the skill set, my tools were not prepared. When I when I had Richard on Richard Linklater on the show, he said one of the best lines I've ever heard about filmmaking, he says, eventually, hopefully, your skill set will catch up to your ideas. And I was like, oh, and he also said, everything is going to take twice as long and twice, it's going to be twice as hard to both those are great, great, great lines. But it's absolutely true. Because when you come out as a filmmaker, you're just like, all these ideas. And yeah, we'll get a techno crane here. We'll swing the camera there. We'll do this Scorsese shot here and but you don't have the skill set, you don't have the tools and quit. And at that point in his life, he was basically a video store clerk, honing his skills, honing, what he had learned and in taken in all throughout his life,

Andy Rausch 25:57
what and one thing that's cool about this movie, is that not only did he not go to film school, none of the people involved in this movie went to film school, as they all say, this was their film school. And I want to tell you how significant this movie is, when you think of it like this dream. You know, three movie directors come out of this little shitty movie. You get Quentin, obviously, Roger Avery goes on, Craig Hammond goes on, he should have had a bigger career. But either way, he goes on he makes Boogie boy. And he writes some action movies and stuff. I mean, three people go on to become professional filmmakers out of a $5,000 movie, shot over several years in people's houses.

Alex Ferrari 26:39
It's it's no, it's it's insane. And now I have to ask now, there is an existing version of this floating around the internet. How did that think get out? And what is that?

Andy Rausch 26:49
Well, there are only a it's not the whole movie, obviously. 30 minutes. It's funny. There's two different versions one has, there's an extra scene with Quentin crag talking a kind of a heartfelt scene. And it's in some of them, and it's not in others. This was the exact version that they were showing around at one time to be there. You know, kind of like a real demo. Yeah, who's got it up. And they were they were showing it around trying to get jobs. I've heard some speculation that, you know, it might have been Russell Bosler, or not Russell, but Rand. They're brothers, Rand vossler, who ended up being the associate producer on Natural Born Killers and worked on some other stuff. But I'm really don't know. I mean, I know that. Rand has a lot of this stuff at his house. I don't know. He took pictures of the of the film reels to prove to me that it existed and send it to me.

Alex Ferrari 27:53
He has the film we

Andy Rausch 27:55
Quinten holds no no grudge against whoever did release it. I think he's kind of happy about it.

Alex Ferrari 28:01
Where are you? I mean, because look at that. At the point he is in his like way, even when it was released, he had already done Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. And Jackie, I'm like, you're growing up. You

Andy Rausch 28:10
have nothing to be embarrassed about by that point.

Alex Ferrari 28:13
Yeah. I mean, when when you make Pulp Fiction, you're pretty much you got a pass for life. As far as like other stuff that you might have done. That's not particularly great, because you are you are who you are. But so then I have to ask who owns the rights to this thing? Because people are putting it out there. I've seen it for sale. In some places, obviously bootleg versions,

Andy Rausch 28:33
it's definitely Quentin owns the rights. But I don't know, I don't think anybody's actually, you know, claimed it or anything. Quinn does say that he wants to maybe one of these days. Who knows Quintin comes up with a lot of ideas of things he wants to do and make and they often don't get made. And I get it, you know, he's got big ideas. But he talked about sometimes he thinks he'd like to have somebody edit this together, just for him to just have a version of the whole movie, edited together. And, and, oh, I'm just gonna tell you this. It's great story where he talks about I don't, he didn't say who the filmmaker was. But he says he shows this famous filmmaker early on. After Reservoir Dogs, he shows him the footage of my best friend's birthday. And the guy says what you should do and it's a foreign filmmaker. And he says what you should do is you take this, and you go out in a boat, and you wrap this film up in some kind of cement and you throw it as far as you can into the ocean. And, and I mean, it's funny, but Quintin is still proud of it. And he talks about how proud he is of certain scenes, especially the one with Alan Garfield, which was why I highlighted that one. But

Alex Ferrari 29:45
yeah, and I mean, this is a perfect candidate for Criterion Collection one day, like it's a perfect candidate for relief through criteria. Perfect as an extra on

Andy Rausch 29:55
one of those movies. I'd love to see that, you know, let me know the criteria has come out and you have All kinds of extras that'd be perfect.

Alex Ferrari 30:02
Right? And it also needs to be properly remastered, properly edited, properly mixed all of these things. So so so the full movie exists in reels at this point.

Andy Rausch 30:14
I think it's something like 98% 95% enough that you can put something together.

Alex Ferrari 30:21
But it's not. But it's never been cut together in a way. It's so basically there's a lot. So basically, the only thing that we've seen online is a demo reel that was cut together to kind of try to get gigs for quitting and the other filmmakers. And that's why that exists. But the raw footage of that film sits in Quentin's vault somewhere where he could eventually if he feels so inclined to

Andy Rausch 30:46
become interesting is a bit. I'm not sure how this works out, because I believe Quentin has footage, but then ran vossler has, I believe all of the footage, so it's really confusing as to and they don't talk anymore. They most of these people had some sort of falling out at some point. And I mean, it just it happens. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 31:07
egos get involved.

Andy Rausch 31:08
I know, you know, and egos all of it. But you know, somebody is curious. I don't really know. You know, if there's two sets of the I don't know, that's really

Alex Ferrari 31:19
that's never talked about that when you talk to them?

Andy Rausch 31:22
Not really, you know, well, you know, it was great was, when I talked to Quentin, he was in the editing room of once upon a time in Hollywood, took a break, he calls, and we talked for an hour and a half, and it's great. And I save it for the end because I don't want to make you mad. Because, you know, I mean, I, I need this. So I get to the end. And I say so. You know, I asked him about the fire and I tell him somebody showed me a photo and stuff and and he says, you know, well, you know, and and he kind of tells me then he hadn't we we end the call. He calls me five minutes later and he goes, Okay, let me tell you and he says, you know, the biographers made up that story. I didn't, you know, and so I mean, I do love it, you know, he's concerned about, about the image stuff, but twins got to know he's well beyond that. No, it doesn't matter. He's secured his place no matter what.

Alex Ferrari 32:14
Oh, in cinema history. Yeah, there's nothing if you don't like him. He's a legend. No, yeah, you could either. You could either love them or hate them. But you can't, you cannot say that he's not a filmmaker. He cannot say that he's not an epic filmmaker, and that there's massive people who love his work around the world. He's probably the one that I mean, other than I think he probably is more recognizable in certain generations than Spielberg is now. But he's up there with Hitchcock and Spielberg and Scorsese. And

Andy Rausch 32:43
in fact, the people that don't know movies know his name, they might not know what he's done. But if you say Quentin Tarantino, they go, Ah, you know, and yeah, like Spielberg and Scorsese. They know these names.

Alex Ferrari 32:53
Yes. Like Hitchcock or Spielberg, you know, you know, even my mother who's probably seen maybe one or two of Spielberg movies knows who Spielberg is, right. You know, things like that. And it's Same thing for Tarantino. Like I've heard that name, he's, he's something he's done something that's fat. That's absolutely fascinating. It's really great to kind of just see the origin. And I'm assuming the book goes in much greater detail in this. But now how the relationship with Roger Roger Avery, how was that? That form? Because from my understanding, and I know, this is a different movie, but when he came into Pulp Fiction, Roger obviously is the CO writer of pulp fiction, but he he technically gets story credit, but not screenplay credit, I think. And, again, this is what I heard, because, you know, we're all filmmakers are like gossip queens. We're like a knitting circle. That quit and asked him Can I get the screenplay credit? You get the story credit, but if we win something, and that's why he's up there with the with the Oscar, what do you know about that? And how was and how did that relationship build up? Start? Did it start in my best friend's birthday?

Andy Rausch 33:57
Okay. Okay, so first, they worked at my best friend's bar, sorry, they worked at video archives together. I believe Roger worked at another video store previously, and one of the owners of, of video archives. I'm trying to remember exactly how that works. It seemed like somebody's father owned it or something, I don't know. But he had worked at the other one and ends up coming to this video store and, and he talks him into interviewing Quentin, or, you know, to giving Clinton the job. And they talk about the interview in there, where it's basically like, he looks at him and says, You got the job and you know, so they become friends there. So they're making these movies, all these guys hanging out at video archives. They become friends. These two are super tight. Then when they make what so much so they're so tight and their voices at one time are so much in sync. You know that Roger Avery was the one that was brought in to rewrite the end of truth. romance when Tony Scott decided he wanted to make those characters live because they are at least Clarence dies in the integrity, no script, you know, he decides to make them live. Quinn refuses to write that scene. So they bring in Roger Avery. And you know, because they, at that time are in sync, I believe Avery gets brought in to write a scene for Natural Born Killers. They got cut, it was the one with the the big twin brother. muscle man, you know, so anyway, they're working on all these things together. This is where I'm gonna get in trouble. Okay, because there's a lot of talk about what they you know, Roger didn't deserve the credit in this and that, if you see Rogers script, what was it when demonium rains, okay, see a script for pandemonium rains. It's almost word for word verbatim for the second act of natural born air of pulp fiction, which is the bush stuff, all of the pawn shop stuff gets almost verbatim the same stuff. Okay. So I mean, he absolutely deserves the CO writing credit, he deserves the story credit. I like Clinton's mom a lot. Um, you know, we were friends. She's actually the one that kind of set me up Quinn. But, you know, she was telling me, oh, Roger, you know, he doesn't deserve the credit. And, look, it's what my mom would say if I was, you know, sure. But look, I'm not saying anything bad about either of them. They're both brilliant. They're both they're fantastic filmmakers. I, they did finally make up last year. Okay, on that I did an article for Diablo League, where Roger says we just connected last week. And so they are friends again. I don't know if they'll work again. But they're friends. They were meeting up and stuff. And you know, I'm there. But again, there's no reason for either of them to be mad at each other. And there's no reason for anybody to be mad at me for telling it because the truth of the matter is, they're both brilliant. They both had a hand in it. I love the movie. I love both of their contributions, if they do, right, or at least at one time, could write seamlessly, you know, kind of in the same voice.

Alex Ferrari 37:10
Which is, which is very interesting, because what was the rules of it? It was rules of attraction, right? Yeah. Which was, which is a brilliant film. I love rules of attraction. And even though he was good, too,

Andy Rausch 37:23
yeah. Oh, yeah. Can't

Alex Ferrari 37:25
leave Oh, forgot about that one. Yeah. But But Roger Rogers dialogue is it's fantastic. Quinn's dialogue is something so specific, and it is more stylistic. It weaves itself in a way that it's so that's why you could see that in my best friend Nicole. It has a cadence to it. It's, it's, it is really a remarkable, like, even in my best friend's birthday, you can start seeing sparks of that. There are scenes of that you just going Oh, there it is. I don't know what this other stuff is. But there's the quittin that you can start seeing it coming out. in it. It is there was just nobody. It's like It's like listening to us working or Kaufman. You know, their dialogue in the way they write their movies are just so specific. Yes. Specific to them. It is an hour. Mamet. Exactly,

Andy Rausch 38:20
yeah, yeah. You started listening to the best mom to me in my, in my best friends. But there's so many of these movies to keep together here. But um, the best time there's a monologue in my best friend's birthday. That is just brilliant, where and I think it's just as good as his later stuff. We're Quentin's giving this, this long thing about how many it's absurd, and it's so funny and weird. And he's talking about it. Four years old, he got depressed, and he was thinking about suicide. And he's like, four years old. It's ridiculous. And I think he was depressed because he found out Eddie Cochran died. It's just this ridiculous thing. But he gives this long monologue about how he turned on the television. And there was a good episode of Partridge Family on and the episode of The Partridge Family made him happy and he decided not to kill himself. And it's, it's absurd, but it's just the writing is brilliant. It's already got the pop culture references from his early work. I mean, we noticed he's gotten away from that some Well, I say that but then once upon a time in Hollywood just takes us right back to that it's all pop culture but

Alex Ferrari 39:28
Well, I mean, like when you're when you're I mean, you can't do as much pop culture in Django Unchained in glorious back door historical films, but when he's in modern times, or even not even modern times, like still once upon a time in Hollywood was what the 60s right. So but you could still do pop culture within its its thing, right? I mean, yeah, it's, I mean it What can we say that hasn't been said about Quentin Tarantino and about his work. It's It's remarkable. That's why I wanted to kind of dig into the weeds about this book and about his film because there is So much misinformation out there. And there's not really a lot of people a lot of information about the film because no one has taken the time to go deep into it like you have. This is the reference for this film,

Andy Rausch 40:10
I will say I'm incredibly proud of this. And I'm not I'm not somebody who's generally proud of their work. But I always in that way I should be, but I'm, you know, but I always wanted to write about Quentin. But he didn't want to do something that had already been done 10 times. One thing was was that, you know, in all of the other books, the biographies and stuff, it's like, two paragraphs, right about that movie. That's it, maybe two paragraphs. Right. Right. Right. And so I thought it was really fun to talk about that, but also to have him have them talk about some of the other early movie stuff. And that was kind of fun, too, because I'd never heard much of anything about at all about those, you know. So that was pretty neat. You know, and I am excited to be able to contribute to it and, and I think Quentin thought it was something special. And

Alex Ferrari 41:00
yeah, Quinn likes, likes the book. He likes the book, right? Yeah. Yeah, cuz he got it. Yeah, I saw that. He gave it a nice little quote, as well.

Andy Rausch 41:09
The one thing I will say I messed up something, I made his mother Connie kind of unhappy. And it was a mix up, I took a piece of information, like a little biographical detail, because I didn't want to reach out and bother people all the time. And I assumed things in other people's books are going to be right. And, again, not enough, but I I took this little thing about his family having these interesting hobbies. And one of them was like, a carrier pigeons or something, and archery, and come to find out those were before Quentin was born. And so they got it wrong in the other book, too. But, you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:49
now, all in all, I

Andy Rausch 41:50
think it's pretty, you know, it's pretty good. And it shows us a real picture of who Quentin was. There's a lot in it about acting school, when they were at the James best acting school when they he and Craig met, and we're taking acting classes. And we have, you know, two of their acting teachers in it talking about Quinn's acting and how Quinn started writing his own scenes for them to act out. That was the beginning of, of when the writer and they said he would go to the movies. And he would take a little bitty flashlight with him and a pad and he would try to write the monologues down so they could do them. And this is how this started. He would try to write these monologues down out of these movies. So they could, you know, act them out in their scenes for acting class, but he couldn't write fast enough. So they would start as a monologue from a movie and he would just start making up shit. And it would become this really bastardized kind of cool monologue. But like when it was a Paddy Chayefsky one from Marty, but it just ends up with all kinds of wild shit. And several people say, you know, it was even better than Marty, which I mean. I mean, it's just crazy. And that's what inspires him to become a writer, which is fascinating. Now with quit, why

Alex Ferrari 43:07
did what was his fascination with being an actor? Because he, I mean, I've seen it's very well documented, he wanted to be an actor, you That was his, he thought that was his way in. And he did get that little spot and Golden Girls, which was the same person, as the person. What did did he ever talk to you a little bit about that? In your travels?

Andy Rausch 43:28
didn't really go much into it. But I mean, we did talk about the acting class. And

but you know, I think I don't know. You know, I think at the time, he thought that's what he could do. He maybe wanted to be an actor and a director. I don't think he I don't think he just knew he could be a writer. And I think the doors really opened up because of his writing. And, you know, once he found that he was on fire, and I will say this, everybody says, you know, he's a bad actor, and blah, blah, blah. And I know at times his acting can be questionable, but I don't give a fuck what anybody says. He's brilliant. And from dusk till dawn. He's perfect. And I've heard people make shitty remarks. I don't remember who it was. Somebody said, Oh, well, he's, he's, he's perfect when he plays a crazy manner. You know, if somebody's trying to diss him, I don't remember. But the thing is, he can really act. The thing is, if you look at his own movies, I and I contend that a lot of times, He's the worst thing in his own movies, his acting, but I think a lot of that comes from him taking away him trying to direct and act at the same time. Generally, when he's at he's directing other people's performances. He can look at them objectively, but you can't really look at yourself objectively that goes out the window. And I think that's why you see him get better performances and other people's things than it gives in his own. Yeah, it's not that those are always perfect, either. But

Alex Ferrari 44:48
yeah, and I think I saw I saw a video where he was pitching. It was like a small little video I think he did forgot what it was for, but he was pitching the Muppets a movie idea or something like that. And I was like, wow, that That's actually brilliant the way he, I mean, he's playing himself, but, but it was quite brilliant about it know his, I mean look at when you because I know a lot of people, you know say why did he cast himself in Pulp Fiction. I mean, arguably He's the worst actor in that group. I'm like you've got Sam Jackson, john travolta, Harvey Keitel. Tough,

Andy Rausch 45:21
tougher, most people are going to be the worst person in that room. I mean, what I would have liked to see was at one time Tony Scott and him were going to make a version of Elmore Leonard's killshot. And he was going to have he was going it was going to be him and De Niro. And if you read the novel, they're interesting characters, because De Niro is a hitman. Now, he would have been like an Indian Hitman, which would be kind of interesting. And it named rainbird. And then Tarantino would have been this guy named Richie Nix. And I really think he could have played that role. really well. The project went by the wayside, and we'll never know. But I think that would have been really cool.

Alex Ferrari 46:00
Is there anything in early includes early times that he was starting to write or just never kind of like scripts that he went that didn't get it or projects that you heard that he wanted to do and couldn't get done early, like early stuff?

Andy Rausch 46:16
There were like little westerns, and there was something about Elvis and there were, you know, things that he wrote. It was a really neat, I used to have it a long time ago, and I lost it in a flood. But there was, he had written a treatment early on before any was like, he was his version of a john woo movie. And it was like, about these guys robbing this hotel, like in Hong Kong, and then it ends up with all these, these big Mexican standoffs and stuff. And it was made a lot of stuff like that, you know, like little odds and ends. In the book, Linda Kay, who was one of the actresses in the movie, and also has these really two tiny parts in Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. In one of them, she's shot woman and Pulp Fiction. She's shot woman, like she's the one that gets shot. When in the middle of the street when Oh, the one that Yeah, I'm just trying to shoot Bruce Willis. Yeah. And the other one, she's shocked woman. And she's the one that I think they steal her car I can't read. He's one of the things after the robbery. And But anyway, she tells a story about when she was typing up Quinten scripts early on. And she talks about this very Hitchcockian scene, which the way she describes it is brilliant, that when they come up with any he didn't want to, he didn't know how to show this violence or make it look real. And so there is there's people arguing in the camera turns slowly, and you can hear this record playing. And I'm going to screw this up a little bit. And it just goes in this big 360. And you hear this a couple screaming at each other and fighting. And then it stops. And then you just hear the the middle of the record goes. And when it comes back around, there's just blood everywhere. And I mean, it's a lot neater the way she describes it, because you can get a visual picture of it. So I mean, I think that he always had cool ideas from the get go

Alex Ferrari 48:13
was like Reservoir Dogs when he just pans off the air cutting scene. Oh, right. Right. Yeah, he just pants off of that. And then he's like, no, that's that's the shot. Yeah, instead of actually seeing it. It's much more disturbing if we don't see it. But that's Hitchcock. That was his that was cocking a tool. It's It's It's pretty remarkable. You know, talking about quitting in his early his early works. And I you know, obviously I'm a fan. And I'm very grateful that you actually sat down and how long did it take you to write this thing,

Andy Rausch 48:42
man, I'm grateful. Man, I'd been trying to get an interview since the 90s with him, and he did some fact checking for the first book that fell apart before he found out Jamie was involved in disappeared. But you know, so it took a long time to get that. And then once we did get it, I couldn't get a specific time. Then I got to talk because he was editing he was wrapped up in this editing. So he sets a time and I wait and he doesn't call. So then the next day I go on a date and it's my first date with the woman I ended up marrying becomes my wife now. We're on our first date. I'm on. How does it work? No. The first night we go to this Italian restaurant. I've got my phone turned off because I don't think anybody I sure don't think Quentin's calling. We didn't set anything up Quintin calls like three or four times which is great for him for persistence and not giving up. And he was very nice. He's like the squinter Tino I thought we were, you know, did you want to talk and then I'm thinking it's never gonna happen now. So, still trying to set something up. We go on another date the next night. We lived in separate towns, I'm on the highway, it's nighttime. And Quintin goals and I'm in the car and I'm like, man, I, I'm so sorry. I really would like to record this and he's like, Oh, it's okay. And I'm thinking this is not going to happen, I've just fucked this up, it's just not gonna happen. And then any says I might call you later. So when I get there, me and my date are just sitting there all night just kind of waiting for Quentin to call, and then he doesn't call. And then finally it happens. And it was just like holy shit, you know, and, and it was the interview that you would want to have with Quentin. You know, cuz sometimes they can go bad. Sometimes people make him mad, and yada, yada. So you can be unhappy. He was the perfect interview. And people said, afterward when you're going to interview him again. There's no need to interview him again. I have the one perfect interview. And I found it sometimes. I mean, I've interviewed four or 500 famous people in my life. And I found that when you really enjoy somebody's work, and you have a shitty experience with them, you never look at that stuff the same way you never enjoyed the same right? Right guarantee knows work means so much to me, then I don't really want to risk any kind of bad thing. You hit you hit anything. He was very giving. I'm the biggest fan. I love his work. I don't care. I love his work. I also write nor fiction, and he's been the biggest influence him and Elmore Leonard. Brian, I love his work.

Alex Ferrari 51:15
Yeah, you hit you hit, you hit the ball, you hit you hit the home, run the first time up the bat with him, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take another swing. I'm good. I'm good. I'm gonna, I'm retiring from that. Right, I completely get it. Now, where can where can people find out more about you? And and the work you're doing? Where can I get the book?

Andy Rausch 51:35
The book is available of the easiest place always to get it as Amazon. You know, I have to say it's through bear manner media, which a lot of those you're not going to generally find those in the bookstores. The film book. genre has really changed in the 25 years that I've been riding. It's used to be they were everywhere, you know, and my earliest books were with Kensington and Chronicle Books, and they were everywhere. I'd go into, you know, Walmart, hey, here's my book, and it was awesome. And that doesn't really happen anymore. And so people think I'll just read on the internet, and even if it's wrong, that's all I need to know about that movie. And so, you know, I but bear manner media is great. It just they're one of the you know, these, the ones that are left are mostly smaller publishers. Amazon is always a good place, or the bear Manor media website. I don't know what the address is. We'll put it in the show notes, all books with them on everybody from Ed Wood. Quinta, Stephen King.

Alex Ferrari 52:35
That's all

Andy Rausch 52:36
I'm really proud of this book. And I hope people will go out and read it, not because of me, but just because it's a good story. You know, it's a good story. And Quinn Quinn, as usual, has a story to tell,

Alex Ferrari 52:47
as he as he always does. Now, I'm going to ask you probably the most the most difficult question you've ever had about quitting. Three of your favorite Quinn films.

Andy Rausch 52:59
Pulp Fiction is always going to be my favorite. It's the one that I saw first, and it just knocked me on my ass off, guess get going to see it over and over in the theater. I would take everyone I could get to go see it. Like you got to see this movie. And everyone around me was sick of hearing about it sick of seeing it. But anything was every time you'd see it with a different audience, the experience would be different. Because it's funny when you're with an audience, there are certain scenes where everybody laugh, and sometimes nobody laughs that same scene. So that's my number one. I got to tell you number two, I think is I didn't. I got I was really disappointed when Jackie Brown first came out because it wasn't what we expected. But man, I've come to love that movie. I think it is a masterpiece. I think it's because it's more quiet. It's more. It's just not what we expected. I think it holds up. I think it looks better with every passing year. I think the performances are fucking amazing. And they're wrong. More and more people contend that say that it might actually be his best movie. And that may be true Pope will always be my favorite But no, I mean, and then third religion. And really true romantic Jackie Brown. They're they're neck and neck.

Alex Ferrari 54:09
Yeah, that's it. And for people who are Yeah, cuz you and I are similar vintage. So people don't understand. You know, I saw Paul multiple times in the theater. I was in film school and Paul came out so can you imagine I was like down the street from my film school. I went to the theater and I remember seeing the first time and I remember falling literally falling out of my chair. laughing with some of the things he because the stuff that was being said on screen. It was it was a nuclear bomb going off in cinema. It really it really was. I mean, it was just so undeniable. I've never experienced I mean, I'd imagine it'd be I'd imagine it'd be watching Clockwork Orange in the 70s or 2001. In the 60s like that, you know, like it's undeniable what you're seeing in front of you. And it just doesn't. I don't think it's happened since Pulp Fiction, maybe people could argue that there's been other films, but

Andy Rausch 55:07
I don't remember anything in that way. I mean, all of a sudden you had all these people imitating it. And it really odd the rise of indie film really was when

Alex Ferrari 55:18
it was I mean, and I, when I was talking to Richard about that, I asked him about that. And he's like, Look, the independent film movement as we know, it started pretty much with slacker, you know, slacker and 91. And in the end, it was all about the 90s Sundance films, and that's when the market changed. And that was VHS and started making it, you know, a feasible option to make money with these things. What reservoir showed up and then mariachi and clerks and brothers, Macmillan and all those others every month, there was a new guy. It was a new filmmaker that popped up. But Pulp Fiction was the first indie that was a blockbuster. I mean, it was a blockbuster. And it was

Andy Rausch 55:59
they released it twice. Because if you remember when it got nominated for an Oscar, they brought it back out.

Alex Ferrari 56:04
Oh, and they kept kept making money and money was a 7 million. I mean, it wasn't gonna say it's more. It was like a seven or $8 million film. So it wasn't a huge budget. It was essentially an indie budget as as a Studio code because it was released by by Miramax. But it made hundreds of millions of dollars. And you're right like the the rip offs that came off of PIP fiction. There were so many of those movies everyone was trying to write like when but nobody could write. No one can no one can write like him. There's so many rip off. It launched. It mean, it was in the Zeitgeist almost immediately like it just like, I just remember before Pulp Fiction. After puppet. It's kind of like there's certain movies that changed cinema. And I felt like the matrix when the matrix came out, it just completely changed action movies forever, is like before the matrix and like, so many people rip that off. So many people try to imitate it. And pulp was that as well. And there's there's like Star Wars is like that there's certain movies that come along that just do that.

Andy Rausch 57:03
If it hadn't been printed in Pulp Fiction, I would have never written about film. I mean, I liked movies, like everybody, and I was still watching the big tentpole shitty movies and thinking they were just as good as everything else. You know, I would, I didn't start learning about them studying about film, you know, really finding a passion for a film until that movie. I walked out of that movie stunned, I went on opening night. If I'm not wrong, it was like, What September? I don't know, like ninth or something. 1994 maybe it's 20, something like that. And I walked down and I was just stunned. I couldn't believe this thing I just seen and I knew something had changed inside of me, not only on this screen, but inside of me. And I and I just I thought I want to write about film. And that was that was finding film books right after that. That was, you know, when I thought man, I want to write about film.

Alex Ferrari 58:00
And I'll leave you with a little story that I know about quitting that I heard firsthand from someone. I don't know if you know this, and I do know the director Sheldon lected. Who Lynch children back in the day. Yeah. So yeah, the Bloodsport he wrote he wrote Bloodsport and directed Lionheart and, and stuff well, he knows he knew when he was. He was about I think from from Argentina. He either introduced them to Lawrence or they, they knew someone who knows it, but he knew Quinn, somehow, like Scott Spiegel and Lauren Stein,

Andy Rausch 58:32
someone evil and Sheldon were in the same circle and

Alex Ferrari 58:34
right and that there was something there, right but but he told me a quitting story. And you might know this story, but he's the he was he was working on. Was it Lionheart? I don't know if it was a Lionheart or Rambo, but he was working on a pre production in an office. And right next to him, he walked in the room and quit and was there and quit and goes, Oh, my God, it Sheldon liked it. And he's like, holy cow. It Sheldon and then he suspended Of course, quitting because he has that encyclopedic knowledge of film, started nailing all his old films and stuff like that. And apparently quitting was he was a telemarketer on selling. He was up selling video stores around the country to buy more copies of certain films that were coming out that week. Like a you need five copies instead of three of, of, you know, sell to the killer bimbos. I mean, seriously, you do need and that was the end, I was like, wow, quitting was with cold calling, you know, video stores trying to upsell videos.

Andy Rausch 59:35
I gotta tell you for now and forever. Probably one of the greatest experiences of my life talking film was at that Film Festival and in 99, I had a few minutes to just talk to Quentin about. We talked about gangster movies. There was a movie called he had a movie on there called the debt collector, and or the death collector. That's it the death collector and it was an early movie with Joe Kashi and Frank Vincent before they had done Scorsese movies, and we got to talk for a few minutes. And he was just really nice and let his guard down and day you're talking about movies. It's amazing. And, and also I asked him about I just seen the apple, which is that famous movie that canon put out. There was supposed to be so bad and and he was it was awful. But I asked him about it. And Quinn said, Oh, yeah, that was one of the only movies I've ever walked out of. So it was something that associating Quentin walked out and Wow,

Alex Ferrari 1:00:33
he was everything. He watches everything.

Andy Rausch 1:00:37
Right. And for the record, if you ever talked to Guillermo del Toro, he's just like, Quinn. I mean, it's infectious. They both no evidence cyclopedic knowledge. No, I'd love to see those two guys talk about them. I think that would be amazing. I wouldn't even have to talk. I just sit back and watch that like a movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:52
No. When I was talking to Richard, it was the same thing. Richard has an encyclopedic knowledge of films. He was throwing out stuff that I'd either heard of in film school, or I'd just never heard of, and some film, I was like, What is going on? I thought I was a cinephile to a certain extent. But there are a whole other level and I'm like, Oh, I think Richard is probably up and up in the same levels as as Quintin is, but I didn't I I've met midway again, a couple times. But I've never had the chance to really sit down and talk to him. But I've heard that he has an encyclopedic knowledge of film as well. It's insane. But man, thank you so much for being on the show. Andy, I appreciate it, brother. Thank you for writing the book. And and being the historian that we needed for this film. So at least now there's a record a true record of what I

Andy Rausch 1:01:40
just said, you know, I'm editing a third book on when,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:42
okay, what's, what's going on.

Andy Rausch 1:01:44
It's called Pope cinema. And it's going to be a collection of essays by different writers on different aspects of Quentin's films. And I'm doing that with Kieran Fisher, who's a really talented writer from Australia.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:01
Nice, very cool. Well, we'll keep an eye out for that man. But thank you, Andy, again, so much. I appreciate you and in all 46 plus books that you've written about cinema so thank you.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors

BPS 305: How I Made $193M Off My Micro-Budget Film with Oren Peli

by

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

SPONSORS

  1. Bulletproof Script Coverage– Get Your Screenplay Read by Hollywood Professionals
  2. Audible– Get a Free Screenwriting Audiobook
Download New Tab

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Hey guys, so I wanted to let you know what we're going to be doing now on the show. Moving forward for a little while, I wanted to kind of bring in some amazing episodes from the indie film hustle podcast network with guest hosts. And you might recognize some of these guests hopes we'll have Dave bullous, Jason buff, and Scott McMahon guest hosting some of these episodes every week. Now we're going to be doing still our regular episodes on once a week and then we're going to be doing these guests episodes, the second part of the week, and that way we can get you guys more amazing content, and help you move forward on your filmmaking or screenwriting journey. So sit back, relax, and enjoy this amazing episode with my buddy Scott McMahon.

Scott Mcmahon 2:43
Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a past episode in which I interview the creator of paranormal activity. Oren Peli, Halloween is around the corner. So I thought I polish this interview off and share with you again. But what I love about this interview is how we're able to go step by step of what had to happen in order to make parallel more activity to success, it became, you've probably heard the story how oran made parallel more activity for $15,000 and then sold it to Paramount and how it became a massive hit. What you probably don't know is all the emotions that went into this roller coaster ride and so many things having to line up in order for it to become a global phenomenon. You know, sometimes luck plays a factor. And you're going to hear that in this episode. And I'm titling this episode. Imagine making $193 million off your micro budget film. Just let that sit with you for a moment. Yeah, it's the dream. I'm sure we've all had a dream scenario like that. Now you get to hear the blow by blow steps of what that actually feels like when Oren shares his story with us. Now, I'm not sure if this will ever happen again. But who knows it could happen to you. I mean, you your film could be the next paranormal activity. Anything's possible. So sit back and enjoy this rebroadcast of my interview with Oren Peli here on the film Trooper podcast. Well, it's been a very long time since we you and I bumped into each other. Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah, I think honestly. Gosh, you know, I think it really honestly last time, we kind of just, I mean, we always would see each other at like the events or the parties. But we really only worked together briefly on like one of the basketball games at Sony and you were the owner. I'm gonna say this is really interesting because you were the only person that would help us because I was working in the cinematics department. And we're having problems with the video player, I think for PlayStation two because it was fairly new. You know how Sony would have like their proprietary code on top of whatever code was normal. But they we were having a really difficult time trying to get a movie player to work on PlayStation two, and we were trying to figure out the specs that we had to create the prerender movies for and you were the only person the only programmer that He was so kind enough and willing enough to like work out all the kinks and made the major breakthrough for us. So I just want to say, hey, way back then I just want to say thank you.

Oren Peli 5:14
No problem. But to be honest, I don't even really remember that I'm not even sure when you show it was me and not maybe a mirror. Well, I mean, it could have been, it could have been me, it was we're talking probably like 15 to 20 years ago, right?

Scott Mcmahon 5:27
Is it been that long? To God? I mean, it's, I was I was there in 96 When I started, and so this year, right, we're 15 years, I think, almost.

Oren Peli 5:39
Yeah, I started in 97. And then I started with a NFL extreme with a mirror. So it probably was for one of those in either in 97 or 98. So a long time ago.

Scott Mcmahon 5:51
Oh, my God. I feel old now. Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting? Yeah, because both you and Amir were very kind to spend time helping us out. And that was really cool. And it's interesting that the reason I'm kind of brought this little story up is sort of just to also get reacquainted. But for this particular podcast that I do fulfillments Trooper, which is the whole resources designed to try to help filmmakers become entrepreneurs. In this new day and age, you know, of people just basically living like The Four Hour Workweek type thing. And just try to apply online entrepreneurship, marketing and business and try to give that information over to independent filmmakers. As as everything keeps changing so rapidly. But anyhow, what I like to do is take people through sort of the general hero's journey, and what you just gave, or what we just shared, there was what I call your save the cat moment, you know, little Blake Snyder, screenwriting book. And you know, that concept like your character has to have like a save the cat moment within like the first five minutes or something. So the audience can say, Yes, I like this character, or I can relate to this character. And I will follow this character all the way through the end. Well, that was to me, that's, that's me sharing your save the cat moment, which is just showing that during a time where nobody else was helping us you did, so thank you.

Oren Peli 7:21
No problem.

Scott Mcmahon 7:22
So let me ask you. So another book that I like to pair it up the classic story book or story by Robert McKee. He talks about the inciting incident. And do you remember, like, one movie when you were younger, that made that had an effect on you, that doesn't have to be related to paranormal activity, or a horror film, it could be something completely different. But do you have like a, like a memory like that?

Oren Peli 7:51
I mean, there have been a lot of movies that have had, you know, a tremendous impact on me, specifically related to part of my activity, I would say, as a kid, it was the exorcist that, you know, totally traumatized me. And later on Blair Witch Project, which we can talk about later, when it comes to, you know, the mechanics of low budget, but there'll be a lot of movie events that are, you know, kind of ingrained in my movie memory as a kid, like, you know, going to see Star Wars for the first time. And at Indiana Jones, you know, all those kind of movies that defined the, our childhoods had a tremendous impact. But also, you know, I would like to watch as soon as the video rental became available in Israel, which was more probably in the mid to late 80s, then I just watched massive quantities of movies, then. And I believe that I got something, a little something out of every movie, whether good or bad. So it's kind of like sometimes just being exposed to the sheer volume of, of movies and cinemas and different styles of directing and storytelling, sort of like, you know, gives you a massive amount of knowledge. Or, you know, stuff like second hand experience, sort of, as you're watching a movie and you're trying to figure out, like, why would the director do such and such and such, why would they cut here or there sort of kind of like in programming terms, reverse engineering something, which is how I learned programming by looking at other people code and, and you know, then tweaking it and learning from it. So that was, in a way my approach to filmmaking just watching as many movies as I can. And of course, later when DVDs became available, I would watch you know, the director commentaries and behind the scenes and just try to get into the head of the filmmaker and figure out you know why they did what they did?

Scott Mcmahon 9:43
Yeah, definitely. Hey, so let me ask you, what was it? This is a really weird question. But do you remember the day that you your family got a VCR? And what that was like to be able to rent movies in your own home? Was it an exciting event?

Alex Ferrari 10:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Oren Peli 10:10
It was more gradual than that. We got a VCR really early on. And we were one of the first or block we actually, when I was a kid, we won the lottery in Israel, not the big prize of millions of dollars, it was more like, five numbers out of six or something like that. So it was a probably, I'm guessing, in today's dollars, the equivalent of you know, 20, or $30,000, which was not life changing, but very nice. So we splurged on a few things, and one of them was a VCR. But we were ahead of the time back then there were no, you know, video rental places in Israel. So we could use it to record shows of TV. But it wasn't until many years later that slowly, you know, video rental places became available, and it would have very limited selection. And you know, over the years, it kind of grew. So, it wasn't like one day, we have a VCR. And suddenly, we have access to hundreds of movies. It was a multi year process.

Scott Mcmahon 11:06
Interesting. Yeah. I just I'm just fascinated. Because, you know, I grew up in San Diego, actually. So my experience was suburbia, and the first VCR and the camera like the the camera that was a detached from the VCR. And that was like our first gig. And, you know, obviously, the first thing that we did was, you know, my younger brother, my older brother, we would make a film of backing like we're punching each other. That was like our first film. It's a good way to start. Oh, yeah, I got some good little footage of Adam when he's little.

Oren Peli 11:41
Yeah, but in our case, a I mean, I even before VCR, a, you know, before video rental, I would still go to the movies, probably like every Friday, that would be like the thing that you know, me and my friends would do almost every Friday, we would go in, you know, check out the latest film. So even even before a rental, you know, it was still a, you know, a large part of my life.

Scott Mcmahon 12:05
Very cool. Very cool. So yeah, so we have your save the cat moment, we have your inciting incident. Let me ask you. So when you start making normal activity, I know that I'm not going to rehash the of all the details that you've gone over before. Because I'm going to actually point everybody to a lot of these past interviews that we've done, so everybody can get the full story. I am actually interested Did you? Have you always thought that you wanted to become a filmmaker, when you started doing paranormal activity? Or was this something more like, kind of like a shits and giggles, like, you know, I don't know, I kind of just want to make something.

Oren Peli 12:41
It was a little different. It was, as I said, you know, I always loved you know, movies. But growing up in Israel, making film was not something that seemed like, you know, within my grasp, there was no real filmmaking industry in Israel. And so I always imagined to be a filmmaker, you need to go to film school, and then you know, spend many years there and work your way up through the industry. And maybe then one day, you lucky and you'll be able to beg a studio to give you millions of dollars, and you can make a film, or maybe you need to have connections. So I didn't even entertain the thought of becoming involved in filmmaking, I thought I will just be a film fan. And then I got into programming, and it was doing pretty well. So I had a comfortable, you know, living and I wasn't gonna throw it all away to start, you know, being an intern in you know, in a in the film industry. Then I saw the Blair Witch Project, which totally changed my my concept and my thoughts, because, you know, it's like, Well, anyone can just buy a video camera and run around and make a film. And then I started looking into other filmmakers that started the way that were like, you know, Robert Rodriguez, and they're in our no ski and Christopher Nolan. And all of these filmmakers started by making a no budget or you know, like a $10,000 film. In most of these cases, their first film wasn't a huge hit. But it's definitely opened the door for them to get to bigger and bigger films. So after I saw the Blair Witch Project, and I kind of realized there may be another way I can get into the industry through the backdoor. And you know, through a shortcut, I said to myself, well, if I ever have an idea for a film, and I think that I have the ability to make it, you know, sure, why not. So when I made the decision to make paranormal activity, I was thinking, first of all, who knows, maybe it will become the next Blair Witch Project. And if that will be the case that will change my life, I can quit my job that by then I really, really hated. And I figured, you know, at least during the time that I'm working on the movie, I'll have the hope that that will keep me going that maybe something will happen that they'll keep advising me and if have, you know, worst case scenario, the movie turns out horrible, and I never sell it, then you know what, then I made a shitty movie that's still clinical how many people can say to make a city movie. And I figured I'll allocate a budget of $10,000. And, you know, I can live with losing $10,000 for, you know, having a hobby, you know, for a year or two, a lot of people spend much more than that on hobbies that don't have any, you know, prospects of generating any income. So if you get a $10,000 Gamble, it ended up being 15,000. Because, you know, like many movies, it went over budget. But I figured out for $10,000, either, I kept myself busy for a year or two and made a movie, or who knows if if the stars align, and with some luck and timing, and you know, if the movie turns out, right, who knows, maybe, maybe it will be a life changing event. So it was a little bit of both, I kind of had to keep myself balanced and realistic that the odds are against me, but can't lose sight of, you know, the big dream.

Scott Mcmahon 16:05
So you definitely there, you've always had this sort of artistic spirit, then because most artists or filmmakers, or anybody who has a need to express artistically, they're almost like cursed, like, you know what I mean, they're always going to need to do something creative, expressive, no matter what. So you've, I'm assuming that you've always had that itch. So like you like you were calculating it. But you're also saying, You know what, I'm going to have to just do this anyway.

Oren Peli 16:32
That's a part of it. And I think part of it might have been a with where I was career wise, because at the early stages of my career, there's been a lot of room for a, when I'm talking about career, I'm talking about programming, there was a lot of room for creativity, that would be small, efficient teams. And lucky, like we mentioned before, the first projects that I worked on at Sony with a mirror and fell extreme. And then there was another project that ended up not being released. It was just me and Amir, and then later on with Omar, so we were small team, and each one of us had a large self responsibility, but also a large share of creativity. And then in the later years, it's only a, you know, you are one of 20 to 30 programmers, and your responsibility is very limited. And you're basically just like, you know, a code monkey. And there just wasn't any real satisfaction in doing what I was doing. So in that sense, you probably right that making the film's satisfied in need that ahead that could not fulfill in my boring day job.

Scott Mcmahon 17:43
It's interesting that you said that. I mean, our days at Sony, when we first started, it was sort of like a mini startup. We were away from the main headquarters up in Foster City and being in San Diego. And I can attest as well, it was fun. I mean, I was being able to I was just making videos, and then working with the semantic group at that point. But things just got big, like, by time, PlayStation two, halfway through by the sort of the urgency and rush of PlayStation three, kind of imploded the company because it's just got so big and corporate, that did become stifling for sure. Which was interesting. I was over at the cinematic department across the way from you guys in the building across the street. And we had access to like, all this amazing equipment. And all these people that I worked with, were always talking about, like, how are we going to make a movie, we got to make food, we got all this stuff, we can make a movie. I think I was laughing like I have all this access, and I don't have a story to tell. And like, and then I would, I would like write a bunch of scripts, but knowing production wise, I'm like, I just made a fucking 100 million dollar film. Like go. Like, it's it was like this creative block of like, I have not been able to like come up with a story that I could just make like you did what you did a great job of just reverse engineering and saying, You know what, I can make this I can take the 10,000 You know, invested into this project. Because Can I ask you what, like 10,000 In general, what did that cover? Obviously the you paid the actors, which is fantastic.

Oren Peli 19:15
Yeah, that was a didn't really get much that wasn't a significant part of the project of the budget. Most of it was just equipment. The camera was you know, over $2,000 I bought is state of the art editing PC and some software. I think the PC alone was over $3,000 And then all these accessories for the for the camera that was still you know when when high def cameras use tapes. So I bought I don't like 70 tapes or even more and extra batteries and lenses and microphone. So all this stuff ended up and that there was a lot of little miscellaneous stuff like you know, when I did the casting auditions, I had to pay a few 100 I was here and there for the, for the theater that I would rent. So there was a lot of little things here and there that ended up. To be honest, I didn't really keep a very meticulous budget, I didn't really keep track off many of the smaller things. So when I say $10,000, it's an estimate, it will be way more or less, I think my original estimate was about 11,000. And then after we did some more research, it went up to 15,000. So it would be in that area, maybe it's 16, maybe it's 13. I'm not really sure, but it's around there.

Alex Ferrari 20:42
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 20:52
That makes sense, because at the time, I remember like, when all the editing equipment became down, because we were using like Avid, we were using MIDI 100. We were using these, you know, 20 $500,000 machines over at the cinematic department. And then final cut came in. And then Sony Vegas came in after that, which is the software base that just plummet, the cost of DV cameras came out of nowhere. And I remember just freaking out going, I can't believe you can actually buy all this gear for 10 grand, which is pretty much what you bought what you paid for at that particular time. And in the state of things. So you finish, I'm gonna just cross over like really quick gloss over the making up paranormal activity. Like I said, I'll point other people to other links that you interviews that you've done that give a bit more detail. So you finish paranormal activity, like sort of your first cut, who did you show it to who was like the first like friends and family, they got a chance to see it?

Oren Peli 21:49
Well, the first people who saw a really, really rough assembly, which had like missing scenes and visual effects weren't completely done in audio means that just the rough throwing together of sin to just show yeah, we have somewhere in there. We have a movie that was a mirror and my girlfriend at the time, Tony, who were part of the crew. So there were the first people who saw the first cut. And then shortly after a when it was a little bit more polished, but not much. I showed it to my next door neighbor's who, who not the whole family setup, but it was the Father Tom and his son, Brian, and his son was 17 at the time. And he's like, he's a wrestler right now. I mean, this was back then. Now he's a fighter pilots. So not like wimpy guy. And he told me later that he had nightmares for days. So I'm like, maybe maybe I'm onto something.

Scott Mcmahon 22:52
That is so cool. You know what's so cool is the knowing that Amir, they are working with you at Sony was also sort of in on this. And I assume you kind of kept this under wraps, like, because I don't think nobody knew at Sony, this is just something private, right?

Oren Peli 23:06
Yeah, I didn't steal a single person. I mean, my neighbors didn't know, a none of my friends. No one. It's funny that really the only people who knew were the people that were directly involved in the making of the film, I didn't tell a single person, hey, guess what, I'm going to make a film, it's going to be so cool. And all the other people that I knew were my parents. And again, not because I wanted to tell them, I would have kept them in the dark as well. But they came to visit me like a month before a we were shooting. So there was no way for me to hide the fact that you know, the house looks different than we were doing, you know, tests and dealing with all that stuff. So I had no choice and I had to tell them.

Scott Mcmahon 23:46
That's amazing. Love it. So, okay, so we're gonna fast forward. So you finish the film gets polished, it gets finished. And you have a small group of close friends and neighbors and family. You You've seen it and it kind of gives you I'm assuming what was that emotion like just getting like sort of that first pass or going holy? Did you get like a moment of like, holy shit, I just made something.

Oren Peli 24:07
It was more. Again, it was it was more gradual death. Because at every point when I would saw the movie that I started showing it to as it gets more polish to larger groups of people in the beginning, they were just friends. And it also sorry, to Katie and Mica. And all the feedback that I got was pretty positive. I would say probably Katie and Nico were the most critical. They were never happy with their own performances. And it was I would say, you know, do better. And I'm not talking about this is great. So they were like very self critical. And then I would say to friends, and you know, they would say Oh, this is great. This is really scary. And I wouldn't be like, are they really thinking that or they're just being polite, right? So so then I started holding screenings. Through a friend of mine, Alex, and I asked him to invite his friends that don't know me. And we didn't say that I directed the movie, I would I just said, I'm one of the producers. So you know, I don't care if you like it or not to be honest. And I actually give them questionnaires that they can fill anonymously. So there would be groups of, you know, 1015, maybe 20 people who would watch the movie. And first of all, I would watch their honest reactions, when there was like a scary moment. And I would see, you know, like a guy and a girl holding their hands really tight and getting totally into it, and jumping with something scary happens. I know that something is working. If I see people just sitting there kind of bored and disengaged, I know, you know, this part of the movie as a problem. And then I would also listen to the feedback. And when the feedback stayed mostly positive, I kind of slowly after every screening, I started feeling more and more confident. But I would say if you're looking for like one moment where I say to myself, holy shit, this could be the real deal, then that would be at the scream fest screening, when I watched the movie in an audience of, you know, 100 people and hearing them scream, like, you know, and react in a way that Evanson people reacted before. And seeing, you know, the reviews that came out, there were just a few, a few reviews, but they were very encouraging. So from that point on, I'm like, okay, maybe this is the real deal. And maybe I should get serious about, you know, a releasing it, you know, theatrically,

Scott Mcmahon 26:29
Okay, I'm gonna back up just a little bit before we get this screen fast. So your friend, Alex was just like, local San Diego theaters that you were just like, was a theater or just I guess somebody's home? If somebody's home. Okay, so you just did that? And that was really cool. Yeah. How cool was that? For anybody who was part of that just hanging out? They were part of cinematic history saying, you know, I was there at the house when they showed that anyway. So you got some confidence. Just I don't want to skip over how you got the screen fast. Because I understand. From what I gathered, you did your homework, you said I gotta get sales agents, producers reps, and then you start cold mailing to a directory of like, agencies, and sales agents. And or did you? Did you go that route? First, before you did a sort of your own film festival submissions?

Oren Peli 27:19
Yes, because I realized that, you know, I know my strengths and weaknesses. And I knew that I know nothing about the film industry and how it works. So I started just, you know, reading on the, on the internet, how to sell your movie, and you know, just trying to get information. And what people were saying is that, you know, if you're going to try to do it on your own, you're going to make a lot of irreversible mistakes. So you need someone to guide you through the shark infested waters of Hollywood, and you need a lawyer or producers representative or an agency, like, Okay, sounds good. To me. That's exactly what I'm what I'm looking for someone experienced to guide me through this. So I tried contacting a few agencies. And it's basically like, you know, you call them and they're like, you get the main switchboard. And I would be like, Yeah, I'd like to talk to someone at your fuel cell department. They're like, Are you a client? Like, no, we'll refer to your bike lane? No, well, then there's no one for you to talk to thank you. Bye. And then I tried contacting a few. I saw I found some article from Sundance or something about, you know, the top players in the indie film themselves world or something like that. So I just started contacting a few of them. And in a few cases, they were nice enough to return my emails and return my calls and actually said, Yes, we're gonna send your DVD we'll check it out. In most cases, I never heard back from them. In one or two cases, people said, yeah, that's, that's an interesting little movie, but we just think it'd be really hard to sell it, so we're not interested. So that point, I'm like, Okay, well, I gotta figure out a different strategy.

Scott Mcmahon 29:01
How long did this take? Was this over a couple of months? You know this because it's not like no, because, you know, when you started to submit it, you know, this is still your full time job. So I'm assuming that you were just you know, like you said gradually piecemealing this out?

Oren Peli 29:15
Yeah, it was awful process of a few months, but I kind of fairly quickly got the idea that it's not going to be too easy. So I already in parallel, started researching festivals and and started submitting to a few of them. But I figured you know, I'll still prefer to have the because you know, you can submit to festival and if you get accepted, you can still back out of it later on. So I wanted to kind of I didn't want it to just sit around and do nothing while I'm waiting to the potential producers reps to contact me. So at the same time, I was conducting some festivals and doing a lot of research about which of the upcoming festivals could be the best fit and would have the best odds of getting a getting accepted in. And so, so both were doing both things were happening at about the same time.

Scott Mcmahon 30:06
I see. So the story goes that somehow somebody in the CAA mailroom I don't, I forgot his name was eager, ambitious, found your film and brought it to the scream fest, or he was working at the scream fest festival. I don't know all the details of that. But what was like sort of that that first main break after you were submitting everything.

Alex Ferrari 30:31
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Oren Peli 30:41
Yeah, so I submitted the film to many festivals, including the San Diego Film Festival, which I thought you know, that I'm definitely gonna get into that one here. I'm a local San Diego filmmaker, and the movie was shot in San Diego and they want to promote local filmmakers. Nope.

Scott Mcmahon 30:55
Oh my god. Oh my god.

Oren Peli 30:58
Yeah. And basically all the other festivals that I tried, I don't even remember which ones were they may be Mill Valley. And they, you know, not necessarily like the bigger ones. Maybe I tried Toronto and got rejected. But yeah, there was a guy that was working for screamfest. And at the mailroom of CAA, his name is Kirill, baru, weird name, but very cool guy. And he saw the movie at Scream fest when I submitted it. And he brought it to the attention of Rachel Bill offski, the head of screamfest. And at the same time to the attention of agents at CAA. From what I understand no one at CAA actually watched it until after the movie, won an award at scoring fest. But he was sort of like responsible for both, you know, introducing the movie to CAA and to screamfest. So if it weren't for him, you know, who knows where we're I would be.

Scott Mcmahon 31:56
So that was just like completely, because you did submit it to scream fest, and he was just there. So that was almost like, so what kind of call did you get like an email or call or at the scream fest after you want like you won the award? did? Did a chorale come up to?

Oren Peli 32:13
I don't even remember exactly. Maybe Maybe I'm mixing because once the movie was selected into scripts, so then it became a, you know, much more involved with him in as far as how to promote the film. So I spent a lot of time dealing with him. I think I kind of think at that point, he might have not been as involved with scream fest. I think he might have been more involved in the screening process. And then he was more full time at CAA. So I don't remember exactly when it was but at some point, yeah, we met and, and he told me that, you know, he saw the movie and he loved it. And he gave it to CIA into into Rachel. So, but I honestly don't remember exactly when it was.

Scott Mcmahon 32:56
Okay. So this is amazing. So you you're going through your emotions, you're working full time job you're you're doing and I believe that I know what the climate was like at Sony, where you're just like, I gotta get out. But anyway, the so so you're doing this and you're and you're submitting you're getting rejected, you're like this is crazy because it never wavered because you're obviously you're you're still paying the 50 $40 you know submission fees, just hoping that something breaks. You get in at screamfest What was that feeling like when you got was that the first and only exception to a festival that you got into?

Oren Peli 33:35
A Yes, Rufus was the first one. And until we got some heat as result of screamfest after that, when I signed with CAA then later on a I think a few other festivals a accepted as a or maybe I'm wrong, because then we got accepted a couple of months later to Slamdance after it was announced that word slammed and then suddenly I'm flooded with requests from festivals all over the country and all over the world to you know, be part of, to submit to their festival or something that they would even say you don't need to submit your just aim, if you want to. And at that point, I was thinking hey, we're gonna make it sell it. So I'm done. So I don't need any more festivals. But yeah, at this point is screamfest was was the first and only one that showed any interest.

Scott Mcmahon 34:29
That's fascinating. Okay, so what was your emotions? Like when you got a call from ca? And because that's sort of that's a really a big piece of the puzzle here. So what what was going on? Or did you get like, did you have like a little celebration with your girlfriend and friends at the time?

Oren Peli 34:45
Well, this was a weird experience. I remember the exact a well actually, I don't remember the exact date but I think it was like October 22 of 2007 or something like that. And That was the that was the day that's the last real big fires happening in San Diego. So so just to put it in context the night before I come back from LA after the movie won a you know, on an honorary mentioned and Katy one Best Actress and I'm making a lot of contacts and all these distributors are giving me their business cards, and people telling me this is going to be a next blur. Wait, I'm on cloud nine. I'm like, holy crap, this this. This is really happening. The next morning at 6am I get a call from my neighbor. We're getting evacuated their fires get out of here. And I only took one thing with me. I didn't take toothbrush even though everything was already packed because I had you know, my overnight bag for from LA the day before. I only took one thing. My external hard drive just had a backup of all the footage.

Scott Mcmahon 36:02
So that is crazy.

Oren Peli 36:04
So yeah, and then I think you're like, holy shit, I hope the house doesn't burn down. Because then if I want to do research, that's going to be a big problem.

Scott Mcmahon 36:12
Oh, my God, all these things are running through your head. I remember that. Those were gnarly fires. I remember us getting evacuated like four in the morning. We were living over and Black Mountain near a forest ranch. And we had to get down to my brother's house in Encinitas. And then it's the smoke and stuff was just getting intense. So we make calls and actually jetted up to Marina del Rey, where we had friends that we stayed with for two to three days, like two days, I think. And then we'll just yeah, you know, it looked like the entire Southern California, which is burning right to the coast. And we had no, you had no idea for two or three days whether your house was up or not.

Oren Peli 36:52
Yeah, yeah. So So at the same time, I'm beginning to get a flood of emails from different distributors who are telling me hey, please send us a screener. I'm like, wow, an actual real distributor wants to see my movie. And I can't burn the DVD because I'm not by my computer. I mean, I have all the footage for backup, but it's not set up to actually, you know, burn a copy. So I'm not getting really stressed. But anyway, that's day later on, I get a call from Martin Spencer at CAA. So I get a call. Hi, Martin Spencer from CAA would like to talk to you. And at this point, I'm already like, Okay, this is a good news. If he is calling me, it's not telling me, hey, we just wanted to call you to let you know, Your Movie Sucks. So I'm not playing it cool. And if a you know, guy with the, you know, British accent like this, you know, very gentlemanly guy is asking me all the time I saw your movie, and it's awesome. And it scared the shit out of me and telling you how did you do this? And tell him how did you do that? And telling him? What was your budget? And I say it was 15 15,015,000. And he's and he keeps asking me all these questions. And then he goes, there's a long wait, and he's like, Who are you from? And I laughed, and you know, I told him, You know, I'm just a video game programmer. I'm trying to do this on the side. And he's like, Well, why don't you come up to Elaine? And let's meet. So I think that we can. Yeah, I think I couldn't, you couldn't really drive up. I think roads were closed. And I was south of the fires a thing with a mirror. So there wasn't really an easy way to go. No, I'm like, I'm kind of stuck in San Diego until the fires are done. So we went to a I went to see him a over the weekend after the whole fire situation was cleared. And he's like, Yeah, would you like to sign up with AAA? Like, yeah. That is amazing. Which is, by the way, is it? You know, I now have a lot of people asking me question like, you know, how do I find an agent? How do I sign up with an agency and from my experience, usually you don't find them they find you if you just cold call an agency, you're not gonna find anyone to talk to but when you make something a, you know, worthy, they'll they'll find you.

Scott Mcmahon 39:17
Yeah, I mean, obviously. So you're, you know, you're floored if I'm guessing right. So the fires kind of took everything out a commission you drive up now. So what I gather is that the agencies started to submit or represent news so they they were the became your voice piece for all these distribution companies and production companies. That's correct.

Oren Peli 39:42
Yes, no. This is where it gets a little leaner. The whole process of brain activity head looks so many ups and downs. So this is where I'm thinking like, you know, awesome, you know, this is the next logical step on the wave to theatrical distribution. And we're not not getting any offers for theatrical distribution, we're getting a decent offers for direct video and VOD, for amounts that, you know, at the time would have been very nice for me, you know, which would be like, you know, 234 $100,000 nothing to do that.

Alex Ferrari 40:17
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Oren Peli 40:27
But at that point, it's already kind of set in my mind that no, you know, this has to be theatrical distribution or nothing. So keep rejecting these offers, and CIA is telling me, Listen, you know, it's great effort, and you know, we're gonna get you nicer directing jobs, and you're going to be, you know, we're going to work on getting you in a great career. This will be your business card that will open doors for you. But this kind of movie doesn't really, you know, doesn't really work. If what you're effectively submission once every 10 or 20 years, there's something like a Blair Witch Project, but you know, the odds are against you. So take one of these direct video deals, and let's move on. And I'm just being stubborn. And it keeps saying, Nope, nope, nope. And, and no, and then we get accepted into Slamdance. So I'm thinking, well, maybe that's the missing piece. Maybe it's Slamdance. The real buyers will be there, the real studios, and we'll make a sale then. So I'm saying definitely no deal. until after we see what happens at Slamdance.

Scott Mcmahon 41:30
Oh, my God. So let me ask you emotionally or just your conviction. What was it that made you feel like, no, no, no. Something about this tells me I can make it happen on a theatrical release. Because like I, like you said, a lot of people in the position will be like, Hey, I can't believe I just made this for me. I'd be like, Oh, you just made this little film and you want to buy it for 240,000? Okay, done, whatever, you know. But something about it. What was it that that held your conviction?

Oren Peli 42:00
I mean, it was many things. It was like, you know, some of the reviews that we got at screamfest. When people when people would say, you know, this is one of the scariest movies I've ever seen. And different reviewers, like Steve Barton, who's a local San Diego guy who runs the red central kept telling me this is going to be the next blur, we'd Mark my words, that image of your bedroom is going to be in this cinematic lexicon of, of history. Like, you know, he's like, this is gonna be theatrical don't but, and and you know, the thing the audience's reaction, it's the scream fest screening. And then when I came back to scream fest a week later for the award ceremony, a lot of people that saw the movie a week earlier, would come up to me and say, you know, I've had nightmares this entire week, no other movie affected me this way. And I'm like, Are they just trying to kiss mess for no reason? Because there was no real reason to kiss my ass. I mean, nobody, or are they being sincere, but you know, you hear it so many times you start believing in it. And ultimately, it was, I would never forgive myself, if I took one of those deals for 300 $400,000 and moved on. And then found out later that some big studio that just never get the opportunity to see the film. Before I made a deal would have said, Hey, we would have loved to distribute this movie and make it the next blur. We'd stupid you already went to the DVD route, now it's too late. And if that happened, I would have never forgiven myself for for not seeing the the through.

Scott Mcmahon 43:36
That is amazing, to have the foresight to and maybe something deep down inside you and to just hold your ground as well as listening to your audience, which is what everybody's, you know, teaching in the any type of business startup space, which is like, you know, really, really listened to your audience. And then and then move accordingly from that. So all the stuff happens. Did you submit to slam dance on your own? Or was that something that was submitted? After you signed CA?

Oren Peli 44:10
I submitted it on my own I submit it to Slamdance and Sundance and then probably few others, right after or maybe even right before a scream fest? I don't remember the exact timeline. But I believe I submitted it on my own.

Scott Mcmahon 44:28
So if I'm, if I'm dealing with the timing, correct is that so it gets accepted to scream Fest in Los Angeles, September, October, and then, you know, slam dance has got to make their decision well before January. So did you get noticed like in November or something?

Oren Peli 44:47
Yes, it was probably around in November.

Scott Mcmahon 44:52
So I'm guessing. Do you think screamfest had something to do with it or was it total coincidence?

Oren Peli 44:59
It's might have, if I remember correctly. A I hope I'm not messing up the timeline. But I think that I submitted to Slamdance. Right after screen fest, and because I kind of remember, that's when that's when I submitted it to them. I included like a printed piece of paper with quotes from some of the reviews. So if that was the case, it probably was after screamfest. And I think that the fact that there was some sort of prior, you know, like when you when you get one of 10,000 submissions, and one of them has already won an award and already has great reviews, maybe there's a higher likelihood that the screen the festival screeners will pay more attention to it. So yes, I think it will probably was right after screamfest.

Scott Mcmahon 45:55
It's kind of funny, because you're at this point, yeah. Like an agent, like, like the top agency, and you're still doing all this stuff yourself. And you get in, and they're like, Oh, hey, good job.

Oren Peli 46:06
I mean, at the end of the day, you have to do that. I mean, you can't count on anyone else. No, no one's gonna care about you. Like, like you. I mean, a week before that was actually before FCA. But, you know, to promote the movie for screamfest, I actually cut a 32nd trailer and ran it on TV, you know, on the time warner cable stations in LA, you know, come see the movie, and you know, put a little trailer with the date. So just for that one screening, because I wanted to make sure that people hear about it, and that the theater is going to be full. And I stood on your street corners in a layer with drive up to LA with flyers that I designed and printed, and with the right of the people in the street? Do you like horror movies, come check out this movie, and we'll give them a little, you know, postcards, with the date, and you know, a little screenshot from the movie. So at the end of the day, I mean, you can't, you know, you need to delegate as much as you can. But, you know, you need to do some of the work yourself, because some things will not get done unless you do that.

Scott Mcmahon 47:13
Now you do you have any help? Or were you running solo when you were driving up? Prior to scream fest happening? I was doing this on my own, okay. And by the way, genius idea, buying local ads, because they're not that expensive. I think at the time.

Oren Peli 47:30
It costs me I think about 1000 or $1,500, to run like 60 spots,

Scott Mcmahon 47:37
You know, amazing, just amazing. And, well, ERD. So you get all this stuff. Cohen, and you had your meeting. Now, I'm guessing you're still working full time, where you just like taking personal days, as you're driving up from San Diego to Los Angeles.

Oren Peli 47:55
Yes, as I'm sure you know, we used to get like a lot of time off, you'll never had a chance to use any of it. Taking a few days here and there was no big deal. And it didn't really take a lot of time off for vacations. So a you know, I was still probably maxed out on my my PTO times.

Scott Mcmahon 48:12
Right. Right. God, I remember that. So okay, so this is all happening. So you get into slam dance. What was your strategy plan? Or did you have a team at this particular time that scene ca help you develop a team of some sort, to like, what was the marketing strategy, the promotional strategy to take full advantage of the slam dance opportunity.

Oren Peli 48:34
So by then there was a guy specifically I had, you know, my agent that was kind of like my agent for my career for me personally. And there was another agent that was kind of the sales agent for the movie. So it was his responsibility to sell the try to sell the film. At that point, I also hooked up with two producers that had access to the kind of the higher level people then the VP of acquisitions, that could get directly to the, you know, presidents of studios and, and, you know, directly get the DVDs to the hands of Harvey Weinstein, and those kinds of people

Scott Mcmahon 49:13
Was just Jason and Steven.

Oren Peli 49:17
So, at that point, I was confident that you know, what, at least one person I don't need a bidding war, just need one person to see the movie and recognize the potential and, you know, like, you always hear the stories about people who go to Sundance and sell the movie for a million bucks, and the movie gets out there and becomes the hate. So that's what, you know, I was convinced was going to happen.

Scott Mcmahon 49:40
Wow, that's amazing. Now, the producers that you had, was this at this particular time was this Jason Blum and Steven blank in his last name?

Oren Peli 49:51
Yeah, yeah. Those were the guys.

Scott Mcmahon 49:54
So they had come in at pretty much the same time ca came in, is that correct around the same time

Oren Peli 49:59
No a little bit later, my agent would send the DVD because they didn't really believe at the time that it's worth spending too much effort trying to get set equal distribution for it. They said, hey, you know, we tried, we got rejected by the studio. So let's get one of those VOD deals or DVD deals, and try to get you your next gig. So they sent out the DVD of paranormal activity as a, as a directing sample to producer to say, Hey, there's this new kid in town, check out his movie. And if you have another project that you think he might be a good candidate to direct them, you know, keeping me in mind. So when we get to Steven and Jason, they, they love the movie, they saw the potential. And then I met them and decided they wanted to come on board to help sell the film.

Alex Ferrari 50:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 51:00
So we're the only ones who contacted you. Yep. Now at what point was it? Was it like, immediately you're like, I get you guys or they get you? Because I've heard the story about how Jason when he was working, I think artisan at the time or something, he he missed the opportunity to be part of Blair Witch and he never wanted to miss that opportunity again, or that's the sort of the legend that's out there.

Oren Peli 51:25
Yeah, he was working for for a for Harvey Weinstein at the time.

Scott Mcmahon 51:29
Okay, so he's now he's on his own. And he's working with Steven. He's got those old connections. They come on board, Jason sees what you have. And you guys are lining up, because they're like, you both see the potential of this being the next player which and so now you're at slam dance, and he's able to, you know, reach out to his his connections and like you said, get above the VP of acquisitions, and go from there. So did they help develop a strategy of how you're going to tackle slam dance?

Oren Peli 52:00
Well, the first strategy was that we're going to read, we're going to tweak the movie a little bit, get it a little leaner, cut No, seven, eight minutes from it. And then we can reintroduce it even before Slamdance. Until, you know, tell all the studios in town. We have a new version, we know that you saw performativity. Now we have a new, better, leaner, scarier version of paranormal activity. Come check it out. So around Christmas, I think it was a CAA organised a couple of screenings. And we invited a lot of the upper level maybe not necessarily studio heads, some of them, but the upper level executives to watch the new version of the film. And some didn't show up some digital app, but there were no sales. So we're like, Okay, well, that was a good try. Let's let's you know, wait for Slamdance and then we'll really go for the for the top dogs. Each video.

Scott Mcmahon 52:59
I see. So then, so was the Paramount deal DreamWorks deal like almost after slam dance after the response and stuff.

Oren Peli 53:11
It was a on the table before this is kind of like how it played out. The very first time that Jason saw the film after Steven site first until Jason, you got to check it out. So Jason organized a little movie nights at his place, and invited a friend of his Ashley Brooks, who was then working at DreamWorks. Just because he loves horror movies. DreamWorks doesn't really do acquisitions, they only develop their own original material. So there wasn't any. And he hasn't even seen the movie himself. So it wasn't trying to sell or anything. But it was just like, hey, come check out this weird little horror film because you like horror movies. So she saw the movie and she becomes obsessed with it. And she gave a copy to her boss, Adam Goodman, who was the president of productions at DreamWorks. And she kept bugging him, you got to see it, you got to see it. And I think it took a while before he eventually saw it probably few weeks. But then when he saw it, he loved it. And then they were like, okay, so what do we do with it, we're not going to fight and release it. And you know, we don't do acquisitions in general, we definitely not going to release this crappy little, you know, weird looking home video thing. So they came up with a proposal of a doing a remake with real quote unquote actors, and with their real budget, and they're gonna let me direct it. And I said, I'm not interested. You know, I love this version of the movie. I don't want to do a new version. I don't need a bigger budget. I didn't feel I was constrained by the budget for the film. And I definitely don't want recognizable actors because it will take away from the whole authenticity of different footage premise. So in this version of the film works for whatever reason You know, it kind of hit that magic formula. And if you do a remake, you don't know if it's gonna work or not. So I'm like, No, this is this is it, this is the movie if you like it, let's, let's talk about releasing it, but I don't want to do a new version. So they kind of kept becoming more and more interested in the film in the remake idea. And as we went to Slamdance, and got rejected, for the third time, by every studio in town, really, the only options we had was either taking one of those direct to DVD options, or going with DreamWorks and doing the remake thing.

Scott Mcmahon 55:35
Interesting. So let me ask you, so you're there. You're, you're holding strong in your line and your conviction was Jason and Stephen, behind you on your decision of like, a your vision of making sure that like, let's do this, or was everybody looking at you? Like, are you crazy? Like, you're this is your first film, you're up here, people are giving you these, this is an offer, this is an opportunity, that type of thing, or how, how alone were you? Or how supportive were you on this decision of like, let's just hold our let's hold hold our ground and try to get that theatrical release as is.

Oren Peli 56:10
Well, I think in Slamdance, everyone was kind of hopeful that something will happen maybe me more than everyone else. But I think we were all kind of hoping that you know, we will be able to make a sale. And I think the rest of my team was less dismissive of the DreamWorks offered, and I was I just wouldn't even entertain the thought of doing a remake. And everyone else was like, Well, it's, you know, directing movie for Steven Spielberg is not the worst thing in the world. You know, some people were to look down for that kind of an opportunity. But I'm like, not not doing a remake. So I wasn't, I wasn't even entertaining, entertaining the idea. I was just like, rejecting it without even thinking about it. So we all said, Okay, let's let's wait until Slamdance. And then we'll regroup. And so you know, what's the next move? And I'm like, cool, because, you know, I was certain we're gonna sell it. It's London. So I didn't think the dream works same offer will even become irrelevant.

Scott Mcmahon 57:14
That's amazing. So then you have your you regroup after slam dance, at what point did like Paramount come in? Or because I know that DreamWorks and Paramount, like you said, they were paramount was handling distribution for DreamWorks. But then the economy was really at this point. This is 22,008. Right? So that's when it started to implode, just you know, worldwide the economy. At what point did they get involved, right, like right after Sam dance?

Oren Peli 57:44
Well, basically on my airport ride from this after I flew back from Salt Lake City, to San Diego with no sail on the right from from the airport to my house, I had one of those reality check phone calls with my entire team, my attorney, my agents, my producers, and they're like, look, we tried three times to sell the movie, three times everyone in town passed on it. The only real option that we have is DreamWorks. And we know that you don't like the idea of remake, but it's really the best deal that we have. And ultimately, there were a couple of things that convinced me to consider a DreamWorks deal. One is that we really didn't have any, any other rare opportunity. And the one other reason, by the way that I didn't want to consider the DreamWorks deal at all, is I didn't want to replace the actress because Katie and mica did a fantastic job there. They're the reason that the movie worked. And I thought it would be extraordinarily unfair for them to just get dismissed and replaced by you know, other actors. And and it would be really unfair if people didn't get to see you know, what a great job they did. So the deal with DreamWorks was that on the if the movie gets done and gets made, and then is released on a DVD, part of the DVD release will include the original version with Katie and Mica. So I thought you know if Karen mica are okay with that, I'll consider that. And the other thing was that before we move forward on the remake, we can make the deal but before we actually get started with pre production, and we had we make it a screening for DreamWorks, and all day, you know, top executives of Dreamworks, everyone, basically, except for for Steven Spielberg, will have to be there. And we saw that, you know, maybe if the cause, you know, the executives are doing worse. They've seen the movie, you know, on a DVD player in their office or at home, and we wanted them to see it within audience. So I Even though I made the deal for the remake, I still haven't given up on the option. I haven't even really attended any meetings to talk with potential writers or anything like that I'm still I'm still on the track of the fiasco, which is probably still going to happen, because they're going to watch the movie, how it plays with a real audience, and then they're going to change their mind.

Scott Mcmahon 1:00:21
So who who got that going? Like said, Okay, let's, we got some time here. Let's let's set up a screening for the executives, I'm assuming was in Los Angeles, and how did you round up the kids or the midnight, you know, college kids or something like that to be part of that audience.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:39
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Oren Peli 1:00:50
It was part of the deal. So there was a lot of time we weren't going to start shooting right away. So you start developing the movie and interview writers. So the deal was that before we find a writer, we have to do a test screening. So I think it was in, let's say, Slamdance. Was it the middle of January? I think the test screen was in March, probably the March or April or so a couple months later. And it was just a regular test screening, I think NRG, you know, did their standard recruitment. And you know, when people stand up sort of theatres and say, Hey, would you like to come to a free movie screening? So it was exactly one of those and I think it was in either Pasadena or Glendale? And then yes, and that's when when he called saying,

Scott Mcmahon 1:01:38
Okay, so and then they saw the reaction, because it's the proofs in the pudding. There it is the audience reacting. So this is March and stuff, and like, so I'm assuming, again, you are bouncing from San Diego to Los Angeles all the time. And I'm assuming that sometimes this was like, last moment, like last minute. So you would have to arrange not being at work once in a while?

Oren Peli 1:02:01
Usually is not a problem. The really tricky one was Slamdance. Because that's in January. And that's when, you know, we're in crunch mode for the MLB game, right? So I was current on my task I wasn't behind. And I told by my superiors there that I need some time off. And they were like, Oh, is it like a medical emergency that family emergency? I'm like, no, they're like, Well, is it? Well, when what is it I'm like, none of your business is because I didn't want to lie to them and invent some sort of, you know, family medical emergency, but I didn't want to tell them. And I told them, Look, I know what I need to do. And I know that I can get it done in them ahead of schedule. And I'm only going to take a few days off. So don't give me a hard time. And they were really, really pissed by the day ended up giving me you know, a few days off. But yeah, there was a time it wasn't a problem to take, you know, a few days here and there.

Scott Mcmahon 1:02:55
It's interesting. Yeah, I remember hearing this. Back then I now you know, Amir, is there still right? So he, he's the only one knows. Me, right? That's awesome. Okay, so you're bouncing back and forth. You're, you're managing your full time job. The pressures of game development, definitely, when we talk about crunch time, which is almost like, like, you know, 17 hour locked down until like, the game gets pushed out. Which is insane about the video game industry in the video, visual effects industry or anything. So now you're up there. And it's going going well. So I'm going to kind of fast for a little bit to what point does the strategy of like Les released this at a few cities in the midnight screening to to generate the buzz like, Were you involved with those meetings? Or how did the marketing department come into all that stuff?

Oren Peli 1:03:50
So we skipped I didn't finish answering the previous question. How am I becoming involved? So we make a deal with DreamWorks to release the movie in the fall of 2008. And we have a deal like, holy shit, this is it. We made it I have a studio releasing my movie. And that's when DreamWorks and parrots started having problems at a much much higher level. I know some personality conflicts between Sumner Redstone. And Jeffrey Katzenberg, I don't even know what it was. But whatever it was, they said, You know what, we're not only we're going to we're going to be working together. We are no longer going to be distributing your movies. And then some people are selling the executives at DreamWorks left to work at Paramount, including Adam Goodman in Estabrooks, who were kind of like the champions for the movie. And there was sort of like a custody split a DreamWorks and Paramount I'm imagining them sitting all in one big conference room with a list of you know, all the movies that they have in development and think okay, you We'll take this you can have this one, we'll take this one, you can have this one. And they kind of divided the loot of, you know which projects they had about to be released during development and add them in athlete to paranormal activity with them to Paramount. So now we're basically starting from square one because it's paramount. No one gives a crap about my, you know, little home video looking film. They're dealing with Mission Impossible and transformers and Star Trek, you know, who is stuff from my movie? So it was probably about a year of nothing happening. I think, a year. Yeah. Yeah, it was from the summer of 2008 until the summer of 2009, where I'm just sitting and wondering what's going to happen. And I kept bugging my Ethernet ca and they were like, well, there's going to be a meeting at Paramount in two weeks when they're going to talk about the movie, like okay, okay, good. Excellent. Two weeks, I can wait two weeks, two weeks go by, I checked with my agent. Well, well, what happened at the meeting, the meeting was cancelled, but they're gonna have it in two weeks. Okay, I can wait two more weeks, two more weeks go by, well, the meeting happened and they talked about it, and they haven't reached the conclusion. They're going to talk about it again in a month, and just month after month. And you know, I'm just going insane. There was a lot of heat on the movie. But now we're kind of stuck at Parramatta can stick it anywhere else. So I'm just sitting there and the movies is, you know, held in limbo. And, you know, there's like this sense of helplessness, there's nothing I can do. Just sit and wait.

Scott Mcmahon 1:06:32
Yeah, I was curious, if you are from a high, like, this is like, march 2008, or something, you're with DreamWorks, you're gonna get the distribution deal. I'm sure you're celebrating with friends and family. Just something like, you know, almost like an out of body experience. I can't believe this actually happening. And then, like you said, a year, almost a year later, I mean, watching this thing sort of slowly erode when you hear about the split. And so at what point I mean, you're still working at Sony then right? And you're still just, you know, doing this. You know, I don't know where your headspace is your emotional space? How did you manage all that stuff within the year of limbo like that?

Oren Peli 1:07:17
I mean, it sucked. It's like, a big time because they, you know, it sounds like, you know, something was dangled right in front of me. And now it's kind of yanked away. And I couldn't lose faith that we've done this far and got this close, and it's not going to happen. So I knew it was going to happen one way or another. But it was it was pretty maddening to have to, you know, wait for it. And, and, you know, that definitely, you know, still working at Sony at the time was becoming less and less exciting.

Scott Mcmahon 1:07:48
Yeah, I can imagine, I'm sure your heart, you're, you're mentally, you've already almost sort of checked out. Because I give something as dangled in front of you. I mean, this is like, this is the dream. This is like the ultimate dream of any filmmaker, like what what happened to you. And what you what's transpired is, is what everybody young, young and old filmmaker dreams of, and to hear this, you know, more detailed and emotional ride of this journey is just revealing to say, okay, so you have this month, I'm sorry, this year. So what point did it when did the light happen? When did something just break where you were able to, you know, finally, know that, you know, maybe you got the check in the mail or something that happened?

Oren Peli 1:08:34
Well, there were several stages. The first one was a on my birthday in 2009. And I keep joking with my agent, and my, my producer was like, Okay, today's my birthday, this will be good time for some good news. And it was a Friday, and nothing happens. And at the very end of the day, it's like 630 or seven. I get forwarded an email from an article on deadline, be the subject, happy birthday. And the article is that a couple of the higher ups at Paramount, just got fired. And Adam Goodman just got promoted from President of production to President Of paramount.

Scott Mcmahon 1:09:14
Oh my God.

Oren Peli 1:09:17
And the next day, the next morning on Saturday, my agent forwarded me an email that he got from Adam Goodman, and the email says, towards paranormal activity. I'm like, Okay, this is all good. No, no things can you know, pick up again,

Scott Mcmahon 1:09:34
I have I'm living through this with you right now. I mean, I can I'm just hearing your stories but I can imagine like your birthday and hearing that Anyway, keep going. This is fat fabulous.

Oren Peli 1:09:43
So after this thing has happened really quickly, the next week, we set up a test screening for the you know, everyone is paramount, their marketing department, the vice chairman, and again, that is that, you know, once everyone sees how the movie plays with an audience, they'll get I'm bored. And so a week or two later, we had the test screening. It went great. You know, and then Paramount is like, okay, awesome, we'll release it, we're not gonna put any money behind it.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:15
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Oren Peli 1:10:24
So basically, you have to figure out what to release it for free. The good news was that the Paramount didn't have any movie coming out that fall at all, I don't remember what it was, but from June, until like November, or something like that, they didn't have a single film or their sleep. So the entire marketing department could focus just on paranormal activity, and how to come up with a cheap and smart and creative ideas to get publicity for the film. Without actually spending any money. I think the original PNA budget was about 700k. So which is like nothing for a release of film, usually, it's you know, more like 20 or 30 million. So that's how they come up with the ideas of, you know, the demand dates, and the limited the midnight screenings and all that kind of stuff where they could get a lot of free publicity, and a lot of mileage out of, you know, very little cash. And it wasn't until after the film started by becoming successful into the screenings that they agreed, okay, now we can pour a, you know, real resources into the marketing.

Scott Mcmahon 1:11:40
This is this is fat fascinating, because this is talking like you said, it's like going to stars and lining up. But like, what were those sorts of meetings like when now you have almost like all apparent mounts, marketing, brain power, but no money power behind it. So you just have this brain power, creative power to go, Okay, let's do in the same spirit of paranormal activity, the movie, which is that's made for you know, nothing using the resources in front of you. Now, the marketing has to be done the same way. How involved or how creative does like your producing partners, Jason Blum and, and forgive me again, Stevens last name. How do you a Schneider Schneider? Thank you. I wrote it. I scribbled it here and I, I can't even read my own handwriting. So How involved was that group with sort of, like the marketing's decisions or in contributions and things like that?

Oren Peli 1:12:35
I mean, I wish I could take more credit for a, you know, the marketing, but I would say that that was all a paramount, specifically the Paramount interactive marketing, headed by Amy Powell at a time, and a lot of other great people there. But it was really them. I mean, they kept us involved in what's going on, but the mandate and the Bennett screenings and all that kind of stuff that came from them. And you know, we might have had some ideas here and there to add, but it was really all them so I can't take any credit for it. But everything that they presented, we loved we thought it made perfect sense to not make it feel it, we felt like this approach could actually work to our advantage. It's a very similar approach to what exactly worked for Blair Witch Project starts small. And at that point, I had confidence that the word of mouth will, you know, help get the movie, a lot of awareness and recognition. And to kind of keep a sense of, you know, the fans are discovering this film, it's not pushed on them by a big studio. It's just being discovered a, you know, by the ground roots level. So we when Tamar told us, you know, this is what we're planning on doing. We're like, we love it. That's genius. You know, keep going.

Scott Mcmahon 1:13:53
Amazing. So what what are you doing during this time? I mean, you know, you're not like living paranormal activity. 24/7 obviously, you have a job. Were Were you already at what point did they have you start working on other projects or or you know, creatively what, what are you doing spending your time or you know, on in the year that this was on this roller coaster?

Oren Peli 1:14:15
Well, during that time, it was a until a until right about the time that we did a test screening, I was still working at Sony. And then I actually ended up getting fired right before the test screening.

Scott Mcmahon 1:14:30
I didn't want to go there. If I wanted to get there eventually when I heard the story was like, okay, so yeah, Oren just kept taking personal days, left and right, left to right. And he wouldn't tell anybody what was going but just kept, you know, just not being there. And they were during crunch crunch time. And then and then somehow they found out exactly what he was doing. Like he had this movie and he was doing all these festivals or screenings, and then they fired them. And then like the next day, Paranormal Activity blows up and your Hollywood lead gin. And so hearing that story from like, my brother and some other people, I was just like, amazing. I was just like, just because I was like Leko from Sony fired in the beginning of oh seven when, like everybody was getting fired. So anyway, I vicariously live through you going, thank you thank you for doing being able to succeed in that way.

Oren Peli 1:15:27
It wasn't as a is this as you described it, they found out about the movie in soon, I'm sorry, in January, and I wasn't fired until June, to fire someone, you have to go through the process. First of all, they wanted me to finish, you know, at the release of MLB. So they weren't going to, you know, even mentioned the possibility of firing me when they still needed me. But after we released the movie, then they put me on the peak performance improvement plan, which is their way of getting you fired. So I knew I was, I knew I was on the way out anyways, they gave me a six tasks to do in two months, and five of them were reasonable. And I guess most of them run right away. The other one was totally unreasonable. And there was a one program or the spent several months trying to implement that. And it failed. And there were there was a team, that technology group, several people there tried to implement it over a course of a few months, and they couldn't do it. So they will try to get me to do it and tell them this is unreasonable. It can't be done. No one's been able to do it. And by the way, now, with the benefit of hindsight, even five years after I've been no six years, however long it's been since I've been fired, and no one has still implemented it. So it's obviously they just set me up to fail. So during the time, I took some time off, I still had probably 40 or 45, vacation days accumulated. So it's not like I didn't have time off. But then they started playing games with me and didn't want to give me time off. I'm like, Well, I'm gonna take it off anyways. And then they fired me.

Scott Mcmahon 1:17:06
Oh, my gosh, so did was Did you get a deal already in place from your team? Like, I mean, did you have already there give like some cash in the bank? Or did you not see anything from paranormal activity until it was released or something? I don't want to get in details, but I'm just curious for just kind of living again, vicariously saying, like, I've got this whole time job, I gotta keep going until I know that steel was set in place.

Oren Peli 1:17:28
Or I didn't get anything from Paramount until after the movie was released theatrically and blew up. But I don't remember the exact timeline. I don't remember if it was while I was still at Sony. I'm pretty sure it wasn't, I'm sure it was after it was already done with Sony. But money started trickling in from the foreign sales deals that we did. So there was a little bit coming in, before the movie was released theatrically in the US.

Scott Mcmahon 1:17:57
Okay, so how was it emotionally being fired? Was like, almost like a relief? Like, like, Okay, I'm free. So you can focus on the movie? Or was it still stressful?

Oren Peli 1:18:10
There wasn't much to focus on at this point, it was out of my hands. And, you know, it was all up to Paramount. So there wasn't much for me to do. But to some points was the sense of relief. I mean, I knew I knew they were firing me one way or another. So it was like, okay, you know, I knew it was coming, you know, so I just hit the, you know, figured I'll have a long vacation until the movie gets out.

Scott Mcmahon 1:18:34
So again, like, during this time, where there's this discussions about other projects, they wanted to work on like, the JSON and Steven wanted you to work on or was it just all 100% Paranormal Activity?

Oren Peli 1:18:47
Well, let's, let's put for this particular interview. Let's limit the discussion on two prominent paranormal activity.

Scott Mcmahon 1:18:54
Oh, yeah. Sorry, I, I didn't mean to get you into any other projects. Not nothing specific. Because I know that your policy about talking about stuff that you're working on, you don't get into. And I didn't mean to get into that. I was just mostly I was supposed to be keenly aware like that there was projects like that there was other stuff you didn't you don't have to tell me specifically. I was just curious, like, you know, how you deal with your time off between these, you know, waiting for that big release?

Oren Peli 1:19:18
Yeah, there was definitely discussions and you know, my agent would send me scripts every once in a while to read. So yeah, I would try to find ways to keep myself occupied.

Scott Mcmahon 1:19:30
Okay. Okay. Cool. That's all I needed to know. Sorry, buddy. No problem. So yeah, so then parallel activity happens. I mean, it wasn't too much longer after being let go at Sony that thing blows up. Right. I remember kind of trying to see the timeframe here.

Oren Peli 1:19:47
Yes, it could. The first screenings started in mid to late September and it kind of blew up in October from what I remember.

Scott Mcmahon 1:19:58
Yeah. Casas October. row nine or 10.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:03
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:20:12
Oh nine. Okay, well, nine. So there it is Christmas. So Halloween time fall. And then you're still in San Diego, you're standing to base your experience living in San Diego and always driving to La Did you always feel like you can decompress from the LA bubble? Because you know, LA is like this weird vortex of like, like hype on a machine, like on the highest level. And then you know, getting out of the city kind of mentally you're able to get a perspective. I don't know, if you had that same experience or feeling

Oren Peli 1:20:46
I know exactly what you're talking about. I feel that way. No, now I spend most of my time in LA. And when I go down to San Diego, part of is to kind of mentally check out and relax because San Diego is even though it's only you know, 100 miles away, it could be you know, a world away from from Hollywood, it's a very different atmosphere, it's very mellow, very chill, you know, very cool vibe to it, as opposed to kind of the craziness of the League, which is both good and bad. At the time, though, I'm feeling like Okay, so now I'm pretty much transitioning from my old life in San Diego, and I needed to be in LA more to, you know, be involved with, even though, you know, it was out of my hands, and Paramount was a in charge of things, there would still be occasional reasons for me to come up too late for meetings, that kind of stuff. So it felt a little, like a little bit of a handicap that every time I have to drive up and drive down and figure out where to stay. And, you know, a lot of them I would stay at Jason's a guesthouse with, you know, saved money on hotel bills, but it was still a hassle. I didn't have like my own place. So after a while, I ended up renting a place in Italy, so I can just be there. And because otherwise, I always felt like I'm out of the loop, you know, being in San Diego.

Scott Mcmahon 1:22:05
Interesting. So I'm gonna kind of fast forward so you see the stuff developing and, you know, it's becoming a hit. And it's you're getting press, I'm assuming you're gonna you're getting calls and doing the interviews and all this stuff starts happening? Do you even have time to catch your breath of like, when it's when it's all just like, all this heat comes on you?

Oren Peli 1:22:29
Not much, it was a pretty crazy period of time. And you know, I'm doing publicity when the movie gets released. And I'm getting flown around the world, which is both, you know, exhausting and in fun. So it was definitely a crazy insane the period of my life

Scott Mcmahon 1:22:47
in how long did it last like, so we're talking about like, October to,

Oren Peli 1:22:53
Probably like in January.

Scott Mcmahon 1:22:55
So we were talking about so you've had this dis your world when your life just got flipped, flipped around with the success and seeing it for real that the movies out in the theaters, and you're being whipped around to city and interviews and, and all this type of stuff? What was the support system, like with your friends and family? Just you know, was? Was there like a moment of like, just a private like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is it, this is happening, it's happening. And then all of a sudden, then this is work?

Oren Peli 1:23:27
No, it was all good. I mean, everyone was, you know, stoked for me. And you know, my parents are proud of me. And you know, it's all good. And I'm financially secured. So I don't have to worry about working at Sony or anywhere else ever again. So I'm like, This is good. Awesome. I made it, you know, I won the lottery,

Scott Mcmahon 1:23:47
You did a for the second time you got your VCR. And the second time, let me ask you, at what point, I don't want the details, but just sort of the emotional ride when you I don't know, maybe like a large sum of payout was given to you where you realize, oh, my gosh, like you said that you now you're at this place where I don't have to worry about working at Sony and doing crunch time anymore. I am a Hollywood director and I have this chunk of change that my life has changed. Like, was there like a moment like that or a private moment? Or did it happen gradually?

Oren Peli 1:24:22
Again, I mean, it's gradually because I knew how much I was going to make based on the performance of the movie in the box office. So every week that it does better and better. I'm thinking you know, in my head, you know, touching and then you know, later we actually get the check so I knew how much money was was gonna be due. And but yeah, I mean, it was definitely nice to actually have it in my hand and in my bank account, but I knew throughout the process that you know, I knew exactly what I was gonna get.

Scott Mcmahon 1:24:56
Amazing. And now that this is Raiders. So now you had this moment and it's here and you are part you, you're part of Hollywood history. I mean, this is historic, and everything now for the last seven years, so we'll we'll reference back to, you know, Blair Witch paranormal activity. And with the franchise, and I don't necessarily, you know, we have to get into all that stuff, I just have to wrap it up here. Because you've, you've taken us to this journey, which is something that I know myself and my audience would love to hear. And I thank you so much for sharing that with us. So just kind of wrap it up of like, this is your hero's journey, you know, you went from a kid from Israel, and then all the way, you know, worked your way through in the video game world and America and then became a film director and the legendary one in that respect, and a successful one. But even with all that set, that kind of stuff. Now, what is sort of like, the one important thing that you realize just about life, like no matter, like all this kind of stuff, like is there like an advice I can give somebody, no matter where they are in their in their life of just, you know, if you were like some kid walking by like to give them this one bit of bit of advice.

Oren Peli 1:26:19
I mean, I took a very specific route that that worked for me, it may not work for everyone else. And there are definitely many other ways of doing well in the industry. So I'm not saying that, you know, my advice is good for everyone. But I've always been kind of a do it yourself, kind of guy, I never really liked schools, I don't think going to school is a plus, for me, it's not an efficient way of learning things. I learn things much better on my own, or with friends, at my own pace. And I believe in doing things yourself, I don't know if you know, the story of the first entrepreneurial thing that I've done, which was when I was 16, I quit high school and wrote a paint program for the Commodore Amiga, and then got it sold in the US and made a pretty nice money for, you know, a 16 year old musical. So I kind of already had that. A confidence when I depend on my activity this year, it can be done because when I told you know, everyone in in Israel when I was 16, I'm quitting High School, because I'm gonna write this piece of software. Everyone was telling me that I'm crazy. And who are you this 16 year old kid gonna sit in your bedroom apartment, a new apartment, bedroom, and write, you know, software to compete with the big help with the big companies in the US? And I'm like, yeah, why not. And everyone's kept telling me that I'm crazy. And I'm wasting my time. And I'm throwing my life away, which is one of the reasons that it's when I did paranormal activity, I didn't tell anyone that I was doing it, because I didn't need to hear anyone, everyone telling me that I'm crazy. And for you to, you know, film the movie, you've never filmed anything before. So what makes you think you'll be able to compete with the studios. So I'll say that it's better to just not tell anyone. But that has kind of worked for me the idea of, you know, you have an idea in your head, you figure out how to do it, what you don't know how to do you either learn or delegates to someone who does. There was, you know, I try to do almost everything in paranormal activity on my own with the Emir and my girlfriends. But as an example, one thing that I couldn't figure out how to do was makeup, I tried to do it on my own, because I wanted to do everything on my own. So I went online and bought all these makeup kits, and I tried to apply it on myself, and I just couldn't get it done. So I'm like, You know what, I'm gonna have to, you know, get a makeup artist. So I found the makeup artist and hired her for a day and she did a great job. So the point is you need to do you need to know what you can do and what you can't do, and kind of recognize your own weakness and strength. But at the end of the day, you need to really be stubborn and really have perseverance. And then it also takes a lot of luck and timing if it weren't for, you know, all the different things that happen the right way with Curiel baru, watching the movie at Scream Fest and giving it to CAA and Ashley Brooks being there, you know, during the screening at Jason's house, and all the different, you know, things that had to happen at the right moment in time, doesn't matter how great the movie would have been. It still wouldn't have happened. And sometimes even if all the things are, you know, fully in the right place, there might be another reason that, you know, things can get ahead. So, there's never any guarantee and you know, the best thing you can do is just keep trying and you know, be really diligent about the way you do things. Make sure you're doing things as best as you can. And hope for the best but there is no real you know, formula. I can only say you know this one a I got lucky with

Scott Mcmahon 1:30:04
Yeah, it's but still well deserved, I had no idea that you were actually, it mentioned in your bio that you worked on, like the Amiga paint program. And I think actually, my dad and I actually worked on that program years ago. But but I had no idea that that's the entrepreneurial spirit you've had since 16. That's, that's fascinating, that actually shows quite a bit of character and makeup of why, you know, paranormal activity is such a success. And it is a really fun, fun film. So congratulations on that. And thank you for the job, job well done.

Alex Ferrari 1:30:39
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Scott Mcmahon 1:30:50
I'm gonna wrap it up, just because I've taken up way too much of your time, and I just can't thank you enough. There's so many other questions. I know. Like, you know, I didn't really get into like, just what that meeting was like with Spielberg. And, you know, when you first finally met him, you know, in person, and whether or not he you, and he discussed about anything about your, your experience living in Israel or not just because I know how involved he is with his Jewish faith and so on and in the plant of Israel. So I was curious about that kind of stuff, too. And then I know that I have fans that would want to know, just like, kind of what your thoughts are about the future of the industry, especially with Spielberg and Lucas coming out talking a couple months ago about the implosion of the industry. But it sounds to me being that out, you're in ingrained with an entrepreneurial spirit, no matter what happens, you will figure it out. So yeah,

Oren Peli 1:31:49
I left the real festival about Spielberg just because it was a pretty surreal experience. I was probably like, the first really surreal experience was, if we rewind back to the test screening that DreamWorks did when we were still talking about the remake. So after the test screening, Adam Goodman and Stacy Snyder, who was the chairman of the works, you know, we're at the lobby hanging out and they're saying, yes, you know, we'll release this movie, and forget about the remake. We just need to get the okay from Spielberg because, you know, any movie that gets relisted with remorse he needs to personally okay. So I'm like, Oh, shit, okay. Back to sitting and waiting. And a couple of days later, I get a call directly from Adam Goodman, which is already very unusual. Usually, I would talk, you know, to everyone through my agents for my producers, I would never get calls from any executives, much less the head of DreamWorks. And he's some already kind of nervous on the call. And he's like, Well, Oren, I want to let you know that we love the movie. And as you know, we wanted to have a okay from Spielberg. So he started watching the movie last night. And he stopped halfway through. And like, in my heart sinks. And then he continues after a deliberate pause, because he got too scared. And we finished watching the movie today. And he loved it, and we want to release it. So that was like the first surreal, really surreal moment that I'm like, oh my god, Steven Spielberg, watch my movie. And I was like, instead of sock sock for a few hours after that, and immediately called Katie and mica, and you know everyone else to tell them. So. And then later when I met him, which was while paranormal activity was in relief, he couldn't have been nicer. He was just like, this sweet, nice guy that loves movies. And we talked about movies. You know, we talked about paranormal activity, and we talked about his movies. And we did actually spend a lot of time talking about Israel and politics, and we're just having a friendly conversation. And everyone's going, well, I need to like a pinch myself, like, holy shit. I'm talking to Steven Spielberg. Because, you know, he was like, so friendly, that we're just having, you know, a nice flowing conversation about a whole bunch of stuff. So it was definitely a great meeting.

Scott Mcmahon 1:34:13
Good God, how long was the meeting like an hour? Or

Oren Peli 1:34:17
A more, probably more or less? No and a half to two over lunch?

Scott Mcmahon 1:34:22
Good for you how I can I'm just I just want to scream go. Orange. Congratulations. It's, it's been a pleasure having an opportunity to work with you so many years ago, and you showing us kindness and support and just enthusiasm for what we wanted to try to do. And then to see your story develop is inspirational. It's, it's it was like when I heard about it when I was following it. And you know, I know that my younger brothers was closer to you. So he was just filming in these things. I'm just and it was just so I don't know, it's just it's, it's, it's an uplifting. So, all the successes, duty and keep going and maybe I'll get an opportunity to do like a follow up interview, as you know, maybe another project comes up or something, but I can't thank you enough for your time today. And just really kind of, I honestly, I'm a fan of all these types of interviews, but I never hear anybody get into the nitty gritty like this, which is why I wanted to kind of go through it kind of step by step and get into the emotion stuff. Because you never hear about you always hear like the gloss over, like, like to hear your gloss over, like, oh, you know, he worked on this Amiga program. And then he then he made this little film, and then he got this distribution deal and in there, and they got this huge franchise, like, that's kind of like the gist of it, but like, hearing what you had to go through and the emotional ride of it. It's just impressive. Anyway,

Oren Peli 1:35:43
Maybe in a few years, I can give you even more, you know, juicy details that, you know, still can't talk about but yeah, I'm definitely glad to help. Like I said, you know, I, my experience at Sony, especially the last year was was very miserable. There was so many douchey people there, you know, like when the watch shows, like, office space or Silicon Valley, you know, the new ones from like, judge or the office, they were like, so many nasty characters that I recognize from you know, my own life. And I definitely remember you know, you and your brother being the good guys, so very happy to help

Scott Mcmahon 1:36:22
Thank you so much. And I agree like it's weird in the corporate world because when it gets stinky and and and illness like it's weird, like just true colors of everybody sort of just reveals themselves. And it's you can you can feel the stench, and it's a terrible place to go into when, you know, sort of like that death of like, eventually somebody or everybody or half the people are getting Blekko, you know. Anyway, but hey, well, thank you so much. Have a great Friday and a great, you know, just weekend and I I'll ping you when this is up, and I'll just clean it up a little bit. But thank you.

Oren Peli 1:37:01
No problem. Have a good weekend.

Scott Mcmahon 1:37:02
Okay. Thanks for watching. Bye bye.

Scroll back to top

Please subscribe and leave a rating or review by going to BPS Podcast
Want to advertise on this show? Visit Bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/Sponsors