Bulletproof Screenwriting, Author at Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 458: Finding a New Creative Path in Indie Film with Charmane Star

February 12, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we sit down with Charmane Star, an actress whose career path proves that the film industry rarely moves in straight lines. Known to many audiences for her role in Black Dynamite, Charmane’s journey into mainstream and independent film came unexpectedly—but once she stepped onto a traditional movie set, she discovered a creative world she instantly fell in love with. What began as a small role turned into a Sundance Film Festival premiere, a Sony Pictures acquisition, and a doorway into indie filmmaking that reshaped her career.

Charmane explains that when she was first cast in Black Dynamite, she didn’t think much of it. Having already worked on mainstream productions for HBO and Cinemax, the set itself didn’t feel foreign—just bigger. What surprised her was the scale of collaboration and the warmth of the cast and crew, led by Michael Jai White. A year after filming, she received a call that would change everything: the movie had been accepted into Sundance. Watching herself on the big screen for the first time, surrounded by an audience, was both surreal and electric. The film’s success introduced her to the power of independent cinema and the global life a movie can take on after release.

As Charmane continued working, she became fascinated by how films are received differently around the world. She recalls attending international screenings where Black Dynamite played to packed theaters—but the humor didn’t always translate. In France, for example, jokes that brought down the house in the U.S. landed in near silence. Instead of discouraging her, the experience opened her eyes to cultural nuance and the importance of universal storytelling when working in indie film.

Her next major chapter came with Face of Evil, a horror project that pushed her far outside her comfort zone. Unlike her earlier roles, this film required heavy zombie makeup, night shoots, and physical performances that emphasized movement, sound, and transformation rather than glamour. Charmane embraced the challenge, learning how to strip away instinctive performance habits and replace them with raw, physical acting. Long nights, eerie locations, and moments of accidentally scaring herself in mirrors became part of the experience—and part of the joy.

Later, she joined the cast of Catch 22, an indie thriller that required emotional depth and patience. After auditioning on tape, she landed the role—but production wouldn’t begin for nearly two years. During that time, she helped promote the project, stayed connected with the creative team, and remained committed. When filming finally began in New York, she faced one of her most intense roles yet, portraying a troubled character caught in a web of violence and addiction. The production demanded vulnerability, trust, and emotional resilience—balanced with small personal rituals, like post-scene donuts, to reset between takes.

Now living in France, Charmane reflects on a career built through openness to opportunity rather than rigid planning. She speaks candidly about typecasting, the realities of auditioning, and the importance of personal happiness alongside professional ambition. While focusing on family life, she remains open to future projects—especially in Europe—where international filmmaking continues to evolve.

Ultimately, Charmane Star’s story is one of reinvention, curiosity, and creative courage. From a surprise Sundance breakout to indie horror and thrillers, she reminds us that careers grow when artists say yes to unfamiliar challenges and trust the process—even when the path ahead is uncertain.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I'm talking to a former adult actress who is going into the acting and modeling world. She's actually been doing it for a few years now. She started in Black Dynamite, and she's also starting in catch 22 which is actually released this year. It's actually released a couple months ago, and we just had Josh on on the last episode, and he actually was the director of the project, really quickly. I know we briefly talk about the adult film world, world. Yeah, sorry, if I could actually talk, we do briefly talk about the adult film world from and honestly, it's probably 1% of this conversation. So if you're you know, maybe tuning in to hear more about that. I'm sorry. We're not really going to talk too much about that. Literally, it's like 1% and 99% is about just the crazy world we call the indie filmmaking world, with guest Charmane Star. Hi Charmane thanks all for coming on the show.

Charmane Star 2:48
Hi Dave. Thank you for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:50
Oh, it's my pleasure to have you here. You know, I wanted to ask Charmane, you know how you got started in the film industry. It's a question I ask everybody, because nobody has the same exact story, and I just wanted to ask, you know, how did you find yourself in the film industry?

Charmane Star 3:07
How I found myself in the film industry? It wasn't it was not too long ago, I was in the I started in the adult industry for quite some time, about 15 years. I, you know, I did various films, adult films, magazines, I, you know, so I built a name for myself. And I think it was around 2006 or seven. My agent had a booking for me, the director specifically wanted me in the movie so I didn't have to cast for this role. And it was a very short role. It was for Black Dynamite, and I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was just, you know, a usual mainstream because I've done a few mainstreams for, you know, I've shot for HBO Cinemax, some commercials. So I thought it was okay, you know, just a little mainstream role. And then when I, you know, when I shot the film, everybody was really amazing, the cast and crew, the director, you know, Michael Jai White, you know, everybody was really nice. And it was, you know, it was only few days that I shot the film. A year later, they gave me a call, and they said that the film was going to be in Sundance Film Festival and that I was invited. So I thought that I was surprised that this film, you know, was went so big, and when I went to the film film festival, Sundance Film Festival, it got picked up right away by Sony Pictures. And, you know, I I went into this new world of the mainstream, world of film, and I fell in love. I loved it. That's how I started. In the film, you know, mainstream film industry.

Dave Bullis 5:04
So just to go back to when they first approached you about being in Black Dynamite. So what were your your first impressions of actual, of actually, of the film industry, of, you know, having to, sort of, you know, there's a lot of waiting around, as they say, there's a lot of downtime. So, you know, did you find it a lot more, sort of hectic, slower, faster. You know, what were your first impressions of it?

Charmane Star 5:27
Well, my first impressions were, it was, it's just like the same set that I, you know, in the adult industry. It was, I mean, it's a big production. I wasn't really nervous because it was just a set, but I was kind of nervous because there was a just a little bit more people. There's just a lot more people involved. And it was, it wasn't, you know, the the cast and crew and director I wasn't familiar with so, you know, there was some downtime. But you know, that's just how, how it is. You know, even in the adult industry, there's always a lot of downtime. You got to wait for your scene. So I'm used to that. So, you know, there wasn't anything new. The only thing was just getting used to different people around me, you know, the director and the cast. Because, you know, I come from a different world of film, so just meeting regular actors and and, you know, from that side of the world, it's, it's very interesting, because they were surprised about me, because I was, you know, a little bit more confident in, you know, the scene, because then the scene I was, you know, I should be naked, but, you know why? When I started this, you know, this, they shot the scene, I had a robe on, so when the director said, you know, he was ready, I, you know, I was confident. I didn't feel kind of insecure about not showing my body. But it's funny, because the the crew around me were actually more shy, you know, they're like, kind of looking away and making me feel comfortable. Like, are you okay? Here's a towel. I'm like, no, no, no, it's okay. I'm, you know, I'm fine. So it was, it was very it was nice, it was sweet. You know, they you know, that's the only thing that was different.

Dave Bullis 7:14
You know, Lloyd Kaufman from trauma entertainment. I don't know if you know who Lloyd is, so he's a, he's been producing movies for like, 30 years, and one of the things that he, he found was that, you know, cert, like actresses, whenever they they have to do, like, a nude scene like that, or maybe, you know, be in front of the camera like that, they all, they just the day of the shoot, they get very tense. They They start out, you know, they start, you know, saying, Oh, I don't know if I want to do this. And that's when he, basically, he approached like, Jenna Jameson at the time, and said, you know, would you want to do a scene where we can just have you noon in front of the camera? And she said, You know, I'm so used to it. It's, you know, it's like another day at the office, so to speak. That's when he started getting like, you know, more adult performers in some of his movies to do scenes like that because they're they are so comfortable with it.

Charmane Star 8:03
Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah. I, I think it's because of that, you know, being comfortable in front of the camera, being professional, knowing the lighting, knowing your surroundings. You know, it's much easier to work with somebody you know, in that, if there's a particular scene that has that someone has to be naked, or, you know, it's, it's not as it's not as hard to deal with, yeah, so,

Dave Bullis 8:31
So, so when you finally saw a Black Dynamite, you know, you were, you were showing a screening of it, did you ask? What did you think of the movie initially? Because, I mean, it is a playoff for, like, the grind house 70s movies. And, you know, being a film nerd with no life, I really, you know, got the movie right off the bat. I thought it was hilarious. But I'm interested to know your thoughts, you know, what was your first impressions of the movie?

Charmane Star 8:53
Well, the first time I saw the film, I saw it at Sundance Film Festival. I never went to the screen. I mean, it was, it was the premiere there, and to see myself in the big screen was amazing. I was, I was, I don't know, I had a eerie feeling. It was, it was amazing. And when I saw the whole film, because I, you know, I knew it was a Kung Fu, 70s, you know, blaxploitation film, I just, you know, I didn't see the whole film because I only had those two days or few days of shooting, and I absolutely loved it. I thought it was hilarious. Because I'm, you know, I'm, I'm from California. I grew up in 80s, 90s, so like the whole, you know, the style and the attitude and the slang, I got it all. I understood it. I was laughing the whole time. It was, it was amazing. And plus, I love the whole kung fu thing too. It was amazing.

Dave Bullis 9:47
Yeah, I thought it was, it was great as well, especially, you know, again, it was that throwback, those that 70s Grindhouse feel to it. And I'm glad that they took a, you know, a quote, unquote risk with that movie, because you know, nowadays, everything either has to be a reboot or it has to be an existing intellectual property. And it's, you know, whenever you see a new, fresh movie like this come out, it's too often that movies like this could just get buried, because, you know, the you know, things happen by by a panel and they go, oh, you know, Black Dynamite or whatever. No one's gonna want to watch that. But I'm glad that actually got the promotion that it deserves, because it was a fantastic film.

Charmane Star 10:35
Oh, yes, it was, you know, it's, it's original, you know, it's not take, you know, there was, there weren't any parts where it was taken from another film or this and that, it was just, it was, it was a collaboration. But it was done very well. I mean, it took, you know, it just got all these little parts of of history that that everybody, any American, you know, like, understands, yeah, exactly, yeah. It was very interesting. You know, like, I saw the film a few times in America because there, there were a few festivals, and the premiere was at the Arc Light in Hollywood. I also attended the American Deauville festival in France, and when they played the film in front of the French people, it was surprisingly not funny for them. You you can, you can hear like just there were only two people laughing in the whole theater, and it was just me and the director. It wasn't anyone else, like it was. So it was weird because they didn't understand the, you know, the the American, you know, humor per se. So you didn't hear you they were just kind of watching it like, what is this? So it was weird, but it was, it was very interesting to see, you know, that movie in a different country, and their reaction, it was very it was funny,

Dave Bullis 12:05
Yeah, and that brings up a good point, just about, you know, the sort of cultural differences, you know, between American humor and maybe French humor, you know, I think it was, I think it was John Carpenter who said that, in France, he's a Horror filmmaker. In in England, he's a I'm sorry. In France, he's an altar. In England, he's a horror filmmaker. And in America, he's a bum. And basically what he meant by that was they all have different interpretations of everything. And you know, John Carpenter is a genius as well, and but it's just, but it's just always interesting to see those types of things. And as we speak about that Charmaine, one of the things that I heard about was that movie studios now are thinking about releasing different cuts of the different of the film, so like you might see somewhere else, more often they than they already do. Basically that means so that way, it'll placate maybe audiences in China, and they'll placate audiences in France and placate audiences in Germany that way, instead of just trying to release the same thing. I mean, they already do that anyway, but now I'm saying, like, more and more so, and it's probably going to come to the indie level as well, because, you know, just so again, because now Netflix is, everyone has Netflix nowadays. So, yeah, so I but to avoid something like that where there was almost, like, no, no laughter in the whole theater.

Charmane Star 13:20
Oh yeah. It was funny. It was, it was like, they, yeah, they had no clue what, you know, why it was funny. And you know that, like the scene where, you know, like, they were at the restaurant, and how they discovered chicken and waffles, you know, I don't know if you remember that scene where, when they said chicken and waffles, and we know, chicken and waffles, you know, it's, it's a very American, you know, thing. And in France, they were just like, okay, and they're just like, oh God. And I had to, like, hide myself from laughing, because I know the movie is funny, and the people around me were just like, what's so funny? So it was, yeah, but it was interesting. It was it was fun,

Dave Bullis 14:01
Yeah, and I'm glad you had a good experience, you know, with it, because, you know, sometimes, you know, on first movie sets like that, some again, like I was saying about down times and things like that, some people can sort of come away and be like, Yeah, I did that once and never again. And I'll give you an example of that. I was on a film set runtime, and we had to be in a bar, and his bar saying, this is years ago, when I, I was doing background work. And I actually was in this bar in the middle of August and here in Philadelphia, and it was so hot, and they to turn off the air conditioner in the bar. Oh, that's terrible. I when I walked out, I literally looked like I jumped in a pool and I got back out. I was like, my shirt, I was a blue shirt I was wearing. You could, like, it was just all this, yeah. And a couple of people were like, Hey, this is, you know, our first thing, like, we're, is this what this is like, because we're never gonna do it again. And I was like, No, this is just a bad situation, you know. So as you should, you know, as you complete a Black Dynamite. You know, what we did you want to go back into, into, into the film world, or maybe even TV? Did you say to maybe your agent, manager at the time, if you had one, hey, I want to get more parts like this.

Charmane Star 15:12
Yeah, you know, I did after, after I had that experience, you know, I I've kind of, I think during that time, I think it was 2008 nine, I was at the level of my adult career where I didn't have to shoot as much, you know, I already built a name for myself. So I had different goals of, you know, changing my career, you know, crossing over, you know, talking to my managers and agents and telling them, okay, if there are any, you know, mainstream, you know, television films, you know, bring them my way. I, you know, I didn't want to do scenes anymore. They're, you know, like boy girl scenes. But I was only particular to doing just girl Girl scenes. So I slowly changed my career, and I also featured dance. So I, you know, I traveled a lot, you know, once or twice a month, feature dancing all over, you know, all over the country. So that took up a lot of my time. That way I didn't have to shoot adult film, and I can focus on, you know, crossing over. So I did, you know, I shot a lot of, you know, for Cinemax, you know, the, I was a series regular on, you know, on, you know, those texts, what is it? I forgot those. It's been a while here. You know, the soft core, you know, the skin a max stuff, so that, even though it wasn't, I mean, it was mainstream, but, you know, I, I was, you know, I was interested in doing more of film. I liked the whole world of film, especially indie film, so I found another agent that was specializing in in just film. And I did a lot of, you know, I tried. I did casting. I cast it for some parts, but it never worked out. I don't know. I was never picked or anything. So the next film that I did, it was the face of evil, and it was actually a friend of mine. He was, you know, he was involved in in in the mainstream industry, and he asked me if I was interested or just, can you read for this film that I'm, you know, my friend is doing, he's directing. And I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. And the director asked me, Would you like there was two parts? One was the main role, or this other role? And he told me that the other role fit me best because of my personality, because he got, he says, I can bring it out more. So I just, I also took that as an opportunity. Like it was, it was very, I don't know, like the two films that I've done, they've came to me, which I'm grateful for. So I never really had the opportunity to really, you know, like other actors, you know where they have to cast and then they get picked, but you have to do more casting. You know how like they like a reoccur. You know they have to cast again or read again. I never had that opportunity.

Dave Bullis 18:14
So when we talk about casting Sherman, I wanted to actually ask, did you ever found yourself maybe, you know, typecast, or maybe we're given similar roles and meaning, like, you know, I've had friends of mine who are from the Middle East, their middle eastern background, and they said, Dave, the only things that we ever get are two things, number one is like an Indian shop clerk, or number two is playing like a suspicious terrorist type. And I and they always, they always talk to me about that. And I just wanted to ask, you know, do you ever find yourself typecast in, in roles, maybe at all, or do you do? Do you not experience that?

Charmane Star 18:52
I think I've gotten typecast before a few times. You know, Asian girl, either Asian or and I'm a, you know, I'm comfortable doing nudity. I'm also, and, yeah, just a sex, you know, like, if I could, if I'm able to show my boobs, or, you know, be naked, so, but not really, well, yeah, that's it. And then, like, when, you know, the new, that other film, catch 22 it was an Asian girl, but, you know, I was approached with that, that character, so I never really had to, I mean, I never had to cast for that either, which is, hey, that was nice, you know. But, yeah, I never really experienced it. I had, you know.

Dave Bullis 19:33
So, okay, no, I mean, I always just wanted to ask that because, you know, again, because I was well, because the reason I brought that up was because I had a friend of mine who was bringing that up again, about that whole thing, about being being sort of typecasted. And I just, I always, you know, I always ask that to actors too, because sometimes even when a person plays a bad guy, you know, they never get out of playing a bad guy. They're always a bad guy.

Charmane Star 20:06
Well, yeah, you know, I mean, right now, you know, I, I, you know, I'm comfortable showing my body, you know, and I'm Asian, so that's pretty much my category right now. And the two films that I know I'm, you know, I've, I've, I'm naked and, you know, I'm Asian, but you know, it is what it is, you know, it's, it's a part sometimes, I mean, you can't, I can't change into a Latina or a black girl. So, you know what I mean, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 20:39
Well, my prediction is this in the next, I think five to actually, probably sooner than that, probably next three to five years. I think the the roles for Asians are going to skyrocket, because they're the market over there. Japan's always, you know, Japan's Japan, but China, they have the largest film industry in the world. Sorry, they, Oh, really, yeah, they actually, I'm sorry, actually, Bollywood is still number one, but, but China's coming. It was France becoming number one. And then you have, obviously, Vietnam's on the rise. South Korea is, is also, they have a wonderful film market. Some of the best filmmakers in the world actually come from South Korea. And, I mean, it's just been, I that's why I think you're going to start seeing and again, I mentioned Bollywood, which is in India, I meant I I'm predicting there's going to be a lot more different types of roles also, because if Hollywood wants to keep exporting movies to those big markets, they're going to have to appeal to those markets. So that's why I think those Asian, Asian roles are just going to not be so stereotyped anymore, and they're going to be more wide open.

Charmane Star 21:42
Yeah, I'm seeing that. I'm seeing, you know, because it, I mean, the world is getting bigger, and, you know, the attention is, you know, there's a lot, there's a bigger, it's a bigger world out there. Actually, there's a former adult film star. Her name is Sunny Leone, oh, yeah, she's huge in Bollywood. She's an actress. She does the mainstream. She's there. She's like, she's so famous there. And it's crazy. Surprisingly, she came from the adult and they've accepted her, you know, and changed her career, and now she's a big superstar there. It's amazing. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 22:22
I mean, I'm sorry to me cut you off. Oh no, no, go ahead. I was just, I mean, as we talked about Sonny Leone, you know, she made the transition from, you know, adult films to mainstream, you know, Sasha gray too. She Oh yeah, and Sasha gray as well, yeah, yeah. And she's been in a ton of stuff. I was actually watching a horror movie and she just appeared. I was like, oh, there's Sasha. I was like, I didn't even know she was in this but yeah, you know it's, I forget the girl's name. It'll come back to me soon as we're off this call, but off the podcast. But I remember, oh, Tracy lords. That's what

Charmane Star 22:56
I was thinking. Oh yes, Tracy Lord. She's, yeah, she's one of the original, yeah, the original, yes, your crossover,

Dave Bullis 23:03
Yeah, cuz I see her, you know, she's in a ton of movies now. She's in a lot of horror movies now, but, but yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, just, I was just giving examples again, as we talked about, you know, sort of making that transition. And those names just popped in my head. But, you know, just back to your career, Charmaine, you know, you mentioned face of evil, you know, how did you go about getting that role? Was, did your did your manager sort of find you the audition? And you went and you auditioned and got the part?

Charmane Star 23:28
No, actually, a friend of mine. He's a publicist, and he works in the mainstream industry, and he was reading for that, that particular script, and he asked me his friend, that's the director are is looking for, you know, just a few people to read for, you know, these two roles. And he asked me if I was interested in reading for the roles. And I read two different characters, and the director gave me one part, and, you know, I was honored. I was like, Okay, great. This is another film, another opportunity. And it was pretty big. I mean, it was a lot of characters I got to meet because it was, it's a good film. It's a very interesting film. I've never done a zombie film. I've never done, like, anything horror, horrific, or anything. And especially with, you know, makeup, you know, and just playing a role that I've never played before, like just ugly and zombie and making weird noises, I really had to do the all of that. And it was, it was, it was nice. It was very interesting. I was, I'm glad to have that opportunity. A friend of mine, you know, gave me that opportunity. So it wasn't very hard. I was lucky to, you know, get that part. And it was fun. It was a really, really fun, interesting film to shoot. We shot in like a really broken down. Calls. Every scene was a night scene. So we had to start at like, you know, in the evening to like, six in the morning. And during that, I think we shot it. I shot it for like, few three weeks or something. And one week I was in jury duty, and it was the same week where I had to wear, like, zombie makeup, and it was so difficult, because I told the director one night. I said, I'm sorry I have to get off. I had to get off early because I have jury duty at like, seven in the morning, and he you know, and you know, how directors are, they want you to stay until they finish something. So I ended up staying really late, and, I mean, I, I had to drive home in the sun with, like, zombie makeup. And I literally looked so scary driving home with a scary face. Oh my god, I look like, I look like a crackhead, like, seriously driving home, you know? You know, zombie makeup. It's just, like, white face with like, just, Oh, my God. You know, veins everywhere. It was. It was crazy. And then I had to go to jury duty. It was amazing.

Dave Bullis 26:08
So when you walked in for jury duty, did they just say, Oh, we passed Charmane,

Charmane Star 26:12
No and it's funny, because once they said that, and I thought, you know, sometimes when you're in jury duty, you know, okay, you know, there's like 30 people, and you know, they only have to pick like 12. And hello, they picked me. They picked me. I was, I got so lucky. I was one of the 12 people, and I had to go back again. It was crazy. But once we got to court, they dismissed the case. So I got, you know, even more lucky to not go further. So, you know, that was, that was good. Oh, but, yeah, it was, it was a very interesting movie at the the I actually, there were a few moments, you know, because I had to be in makeup, and we had the makeup artist, he's, he was Japanese, and he specialized in, you know, those, you know, the scary, I don't know, those zombie, scary makeup. And at night, it was just, you know, looking at myself in the mirror. I, you know, I would scare myself, like, like, when I would walk into the restroom and had to pee, and I would wash my hand, I look up, I'm like, oh my god, I can't look at my face. I can't look at myself. It's just so scary.

Dave Bullis 27:24
It's funny, because I actually was a, was a background in a horror movie once, and I was, like a, I was a, a corpse in a pile of dead bodies, and I had like this fake blood all over me. So I got it while, you know. So after the shoot was over, I thought I had, you know, I took like this wet wipe type thing. I wiped my face. I thought I got it all done. So on the driving home, I asked my friend, like, listen, let me, let's stop at this little, this little, like, thrift store slash bodega, whatever you want to call it. And I, I was like, I want to grab a drink. And I walk in, and the one guy behind the counter, just like, looks up and staring at me. Well, I was like, what the hell I was like, What do I got something on my face or something. I still had blood and stuff all in my hair. I look like I was in probably a car accident, and just sort of walked in. And luckily, though it's Philadelphia, I just kind of blended in eventually but

Charmane Star 28:12
Ohh my goodness, right, see, I was in LA and I was in a car, and they're just like, okay, that's, you know, and it's kind of acceptable. It's like, okay, this is an actor, you know, as an actress, you know, but yeah, it's, isn't it funny? You just, you just forget that you look like that.

Dave Bullis 28:28
Yeah, yeah. Really, it's, it's sort of like, out of sight, out of mind,

Charmane Star 28:33
Yeah, it was a good film. It was really the characters, you know, the the other my fellow actors, they were all mainstream actors. Jamie Bernadette, she's a she was the lead role she does, she she does a lot of horror films. She, she's from, you know, she comes from that side of the world of all horror films. And, you know, she's used to it. So she kind of taught me a little bit because, you know, being a zombie, playing a zombie character, you have to, you know, for me, my experience is to look glamorous and smile and look gorgeous, you know, like have seduction in my eyes and all this stuff. So I had to remove all of that. And directors like, I want you to sneer, and I'm like, What's sneer? He goes to sneer. That's, it's like a sound, and you got to go, you know, like, just sneer like a zombie. And I'm like, How do you do that? So he's like, come on, you got to be serious. And I'm like, oh my god, I have to, and I had to get into this weird zombie role, you know, that's, and I, and I did, it was nice. It was very, I'm glad that I can, you know, I'm able to change, you know, my this character, or my, you know, the side of me, and go in a different direction. Yeah, it was very nice.

Dave Bullis 30:04
Yeah, it's always fun when you ever, when you're able to sort of step into a character and try out new things. You know, it's always, it's always sort of great to that. That's why, as again, we go back to sort of typecasting. That's why, you know, if you're always playing a bad guy, you sort of have to, it's a little bit more difficult to try new things, because, again, you're always a bad guy. But when you're able to sort of step in different characters, it's great to being able to try out this stuff, like, you know, obviously being able to play a zombie and finding out, you know, almost beyond pantomime, you have to sort of come up with all of this, almost like a, you know, on the spot,

Charmane Star 30:36
yeah, yeah. And then I had to die, you know, even dying, you know, I have to do, like the little shake and the eyes rolling back. And, you know, that was very interesting to do. You know, it was fun, and then blood coming out of my mouth, you know, like spitting it out. And, you know, just, it was very fun. I loved it. I loved I loved all that. What, you know, special effects, blood and contacts. And, you know, it was, it was fun. I loved it.

Dave Bullis 31:09
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that too, because sometimes, again, you have to put fake blood in your mouth. And I remember, I was on a set one time, and somebody actually said he goes, I can't take the fake blood. And everyone was like, trust this. We're gonna have it in there for like, five seconds. Like five seconds. We're just gonna roll and shoot with it. And he goes, All right, fine. And he agreed to it, and that blood, he had to do it so many times, and it was like his teeth were all red. And then he was like, he goes, Yeah, that was five seconds, all right, but, but he had a good laugh afterwards. But again, it's stuff like that. You know, that's why I, you know, I always ask about different film experiences, because it's always, it's always fun to hear stuff like that, you know,

Charmane Star 31:46
Yeah, well, you know, sometimes they say, Oh yeah, you know, just leave it in your mouth for a while and we're gonna do it. And you actually are just sitting there, and you're just like, you want to throw up, like, it just tastes nasty, you know? And you're just like, oh yeah. But it's fun. After that, it's like, okay, I loved it. I loved it.

Dave Bullis 32:06
So, so, so Charmane, after, you know, you finished face of evil. You know, you got to you work on catch 22 which is how we met through Josh. Josh, yes, yeah. And I wanted to ask, how did you go about getting this role? Did you sort of, you know, have, again, have a connection through your network, or is this something that you had to sort of audition for?

Charmane Star 32:26
Yeah, my my agent, he he gave me a call, and he said that there was a mainstream role for you that you need to read for. And I think I was traveling at the time, and I think, I think it was during the time that I was quitting the industry. I, you know, I wanted to retire in the adult industry, but this is, he's like, this is a mainstream film, you know, would you be interested? And I said, of course. So during that time, I casted for the role he, you know, it was, he was in New York, so I had to read my part, and I had to, you know, tape it on, you know, video, and send it to him to see if I, you know, fit the part. And I think I've read it a few times until Josh said, Okay, you have the part for the role, and I got the role. But during that time, after that, after I got the role, I think it took a while for the film to or the production to start. It took, I think, a few years we had to build the film, you know, like, build some funding. And, you know, I helped also promote the film funding through my, you know, my social media. And you know, I was dedicated to it. I said, anytime you guys are ready, I, you know, I'll be there. And ready. He sent me the script, and I read the whole script. It was very interesting. So I, you know, I, I wasn't really prepared until the finally, the production was ready after, I think it was after two years or something. And during, I traveled quite some time during those two years. And I think the finally, the the year we shot the film, I was, I was in between moving from a different country, and it was, it was kind of bizarre, because, you know, I was going back to LA, and he said the film is finally ready to shoot in May and and this time I was, I fell in love. I had, you know, my fiance, and I, well, he was my boyfriend at the time. And you know, we were, I was in the verge of moving, either, you know, from Los Angeles to France, and I was going back and forth, flying back and forth from the states to. To France and and then in May finally, you know, we were ready, but I wasn't ready because, you know, this role, this character, she is a troubled girl, you know, you know, had a lot of drugs involved and what else, yeah, she's just, like, just torn up, I mean, beat up, and also she dies. So, you know, I thought it was going to be, like, you know, a little quick little scene, but, you know, they needed me for about, I think, like, a week and a half. So every day, you know, like, I kind of got nervous. I said, Okay, is there anything that, you know, what? What do I need to do? How do I need to prepare? So, Josh, you know, he asked me, okay, do a little research. Watch some films, you know, about heroin and drugs and, you know, and I and some, you know, like, just thriller movies. And then I started thinking, like, oh my god, this is going to be, you know, I have to play a totally different character, like another, like, scary, weird, you know, thriller film, and I have to, I don't know. I just didn't know what I was going to get myself into. So I kind of got a little nervous, but, but he, you know, he assured me that, you know, it's okay, you know, don't worry. It's not really, you know, not going to be too crazy. So when we shot the film in New York, I met the rest of the characters. Everybody was amazing. Josh, you know, everybody was, they made me feel comfortable because I it was, you know, like, you know, there were some parts where I had to get beat up by all of them. Like, there was, you know, because the movie, there were just different parts of they didn't know how I died. So, you know, there were different scenes of me having to be, you know, brutally abused or killed. And so, you know, I it just didn't make me feel I'm a very positive person. So I just didn't want to, I don't know, I've, I wanted to feel a little comfortable with that. So I, I, you know, I asked Josh, like, or, and the director, I mean, and the writer, Shawnee, you know, is there something like, you can you guys have like, I don't know donuts around because, you know, like that makes me feel, you know, it makes me feel like kind of happy and good, you know, is it possible you can have some donuts around? Because, you know, like that feeling of just like this girl, you know, I don't know, she just it just did. It didn't make me feel happy. So they had donuts for me, ready until, you know, after I got beat up, I had, like, you know, here at your donuts, I had a nice donut, and I was back to, you know, being happy again. What kind of, well, he had, they got me a Dunkin Donuts. So that had, like, a variety of, like, glazed chocolate and sprinkles. So I had a variety, like, a, what is it? A, what is it the bear claw? I had all of that. It was really good. So, yeah, it was, it was interesting. It was very interesting. This role, you know, like shooting a, you know, I've never, I mean, having a syringe. I mean, it was a fake syringe, but he's like, Okay, you got to do it this way. This is, you know, they have, they had, like, a little bag, and, you know, it's like a, it's a process, you know. And I, you know, there was things that I had to do, you know, and I didn't know how to, you know, it's crazy. I had to do all of these little things for, you know, the scene. And I said, Okay, you know, you got to do this, and you gotta do that. So it was very interesting to do. And then I had to die, you know, I and I had to have makeup again, like, like I was dead. I had to have bruises on my face. I was, you know, they painted my face kind of white, you know, because I was, I was pretty much dead in the tub. And it was funny, because, you know, there was, there were, there were a few instances where I had to, you know, use the restroom, and I would scare myself again, like I would go in the bathroom at night, because I, you know, and then the bathroom was downstairs, and I would forget that I had makeup on my face, and I would just scare myself again, you know, looking in the mirror like, Oh, my God, I'm back at it again.

Dave Bullis 39:26
You know, yeah, it's, it's, it's, at least you didn't have to go outside, though, or go to jury duty for that one.

Charmane Star 39:33
Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no. And it's funny, because I had to be in makeup like that all day, not only just evening, I mean, even during the day. So like at lunch too. Like, we'll all have lunch together, and I have my robe on and I have my death makeup, and I'm just like, hey guys, you know, outside, and we would eat outside, and they're just people walking around, like, looking at like, Who's this girl? My God. But it was fun.

Dave Bullis 40:12
Just another day in New York City, right?

Charmane Star 40:14
Exactly, right. So, but it was really much fun. I had a great time,

Dave Bullis 40:21
Yeah, you know, as I was speaking to Josh, you know, about how this whole movie sort of came together, you know, you mentioned, you know, about two years, you know, they he was actually talking about that in his interview about how it came together, you know, finding the money making sure the script is set, you know, because that's, that's always the big thing for films, especially indie film, is finding that money to be able to make it, to pay for, you know, not only to pay everyone you know, not to pay your cash, but also pay your crew, locations, insurance. And it's just sort of it, can it? Can, you know, go on for that for, you know, a while, even years, because it's just that's one of the tricky things now, about, about it's always been about indie film, is being able to find enough money to make it, and, you know, sort of without making any sort of artistic compromises. Yeah, so it's, I'm glad you, you're, you're, you know, you're able to be, and I'm glad you were able to make it. And I wanted to ask, you know, have you seen a final cut of the film yet?

Charmane Star 41:19
Oh, yes, yes, I have we there were, there was a film festival in Miami last year. I attended that. It was our first film festival. So, you know, I it was, you know, I live here in France now. So it wasn't, it wasn't a long flight. Was about a six hour, seven hour flight to Miami. So, you know, I was able to attend. And it was, it was not, it was amazing to see it, you know, on the screen, it was really cool. I loved it. It was, they've done it, you know, he did a really great job on the edits. And he also got a lot of amazing, you know, good parts, you know, like my good sides, you know, my back and my hair. Everything he did, he did really good. So I'm, I'm very happy about that,

Dave Bullis 42:12
And hopefully the audience responded to it, not like what happened within France with Black Dynamite. Hopefully the the audience.

Charmane Star 42:19
I hope so, yeah, yeah, I hope so. I think a lot of people can probably relate to this film. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a horror or it's a thriller film. You know, comedy, it's, yes, it's particular, because, you know, every country, they have different humors, but this is a thriller. And I think a lot of you know, everybody around the world can really kind of relate to, you know, some parts of this film,

Dave Bullis 42:49
Yeah, and I, as we sort of talk about how everyone had Netflix and, you know, indie film, you know, those universal themes are more important now than ever. And universal themes, or, you know, feelings of regret, revenge, all those things that, no matter where you come from, everybody can identify with in one way or another, or, you know, whether they've happened to them or they know someone that this has happened to. You know, love, love, peace, war, revenge, all those, all those sort of universal themes.

Charmane Star 43:16
Yes, yes, exactly.

Dave Bullis 43:18
So, you know, Charmane, you know, I, again, I was talking to Josh about just the release of this film, you know, what do you have any sort of future projects that you're working on right now? Anything, anything that maybe you're in pre production for, maybe anything that you're writing yourself, just, is there anything that you're working on

Charmane Star 43:35
Well, right now, you know, I'm working on being, you know, settling down here in France. My fiance and I are, you know, planning to marry soon. So, you know, like, I have to do all the, you know, all that stuff, preparing for a family. But in the business side, you know, I'm not allowed to work here, so I'm only doing a lot of conventions in the States. I have a convention that's coming up in June in Chicago, and there's another one in New Jersey later in November, but that's pretty much basically what my schedule is this year is just focusing on my marriage, you know, and settling down here in France, that's kind of my first priority. Because I, yeah, it's, it's, you know, moving from a different country. It takes some time, you know. And you know, if, if there is another festival, which actually there is, I'm sorry for the face of evil. There's, I think it's the New York Film International Film Festival. It's in April, so the film will be premiering there in April, but I'm not going to be attending,

Dave Bullis 44:55
Okay and I'll make sure to link that in the show notes about about that premiere, though.

Charmane Star 44:59
Yeah. Is, yeah, it's in New York, but I, yeah, it's, it's, this is, you know, that this is a very critical time for me of just putting family first, you know, for the first time, because I, you know, all throughout my career, you know, it's always just been me, me, me, and, you know, my career and my fiance is very supportive any any festival or anything, you know, I'm, you know, he supports it, even any film. But I think for now, for this year, I think that's kind of what my priorities are, you know. So after, I think settling down and getting, you know, being married, I will fight, you know, like try to pursue my acting career, maybe here in Europe, and find an agency, you know, in the in London area, because they speak English, and hopefully I can finally speak, you know, be fluent in French, where I can start working here in France. So I yeah, that's basically what my kind of goals are right now.

Dave Bullis 46:02
Yeah, I was just gonna say because, you know, you know, you're in France, and you know, the United Kingdom isn't too far away. And, you know, obviously a lot of English, you know, language films do come into Europe. Because usually Europeans, as I've been to Europe several times, and I've noticed they usually speak like their own language, you know, like Italian, but they also speak English, or they speak French, they also speak English. Yes, no, I know foreign language sort of starts there very early. So what So? And I've also have a ton of friends from Australia and New Zealand who are actually moving to Britain, who are in the film industry, and they're in the like marketing promotion side, because it's just it's much bigger than in Britain than it is in Australia and New Zealand.

Charmane Star 46:43
You know, it's funny. I've noticed there's a lot of British actors that are moving into the Hollywood I mean, I mean, even on Netflix or even just film, a lot of actors, like, even, you know, like Game of Thrones and Star Wars, they're all like British actors. It's crazy. So I know that there are some, you know, even films, they shoot a lot of films in, in the London area and the, you know, that side. So, you know, they're there, you know, there could be some opportunity for me there, since it's much closer. So that's pretty, you know, I'm gonna, I'm looking into that, this side, you know, this side of the the world.

Dave Bullis 47:26
Yeah, it's, there are a lot of British actors now in Hollywood.

Charmane Star 47:29
Isn't it funny? Have you noticed, if you really think about it, they're all British. They just speak. They have just an English accent.

Dave Bullis 47:36
Yeah, I think, I think just Alba really started all that because he was on the wire, and now he's doing now he's, he has the best of both worlds, because now he's here and in and in England.

Charmane Star 47:46
I love, yeah, he has a show on Netflix, yes, Luther. I love, I love Luther. He's so good in that show. It's really, really, really good. Yeah, isn't that crazy?

Dave Bullis 47:59
Yeah, because the first time I ever saw him, was in the wire, and he has that Baltimore accent. And then when I saw him, I forget what movie it was with that British accent. Might have been rock and roller, but he was, he was, I was like, Wow. I was like, he's, you know, he's able to sort of do that, do both. And then then I was like, oh, somebody goes, you know, he's actually British. He's actually not American. Like, Oh, well, I didn't even know, because he had that Baltimore accent down. Absolutely phenomenal. I mean, I mean, I have no friends from Baltimore, and he sounded like he could fit right in. Yeah.

Charmane Star 48:29
Isn't that interesting? Like, it's crazy to hear a British person just completely change into an American accent, or, like, even or Boston accent. Or, you know, there's just different accent. It's so weird, because for me, I don't know if I can do that, you know, because my, you know, if I speak a little French, you know, to my, my, my in laws, but I have an American accent, you know, UK, when I say something in French, it's, it's, it's, you can tell I'm American, you know. But like other people, you know, like when they're fluent, you cannot tell, you know, but you can tell I'm American,

Dave Bullis 49:13
But Charmane, we've been talking for about, I think, 30-45 minutes. I lost, I've lost my timer. It's not on the screen right now, but I wanted to ask, you know, is there anything, maybe just in closing that you wanted to discuss, or maybe any sort of final thoughts, to put it and put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Charmane Star 49:29
Well, yeah, I just want to say that, um, you know, I still want to pursue, you know, doing film and and, you know, my career is still not over, you know, like, this is just, you know, my my personal life. It's like, it's, I'm grateful for everything, and I still want to pursue, you know, my dreams as an actress. And you know, I'm, I'm, I've finally retired into in the adult industry. You know, this year I was honored an induction of the Hall of Fame. Which was it, you know, that's nice of them to do, you know, like, oh, okay, I'm in the Hall of Fame. So that was nice. And, yeah, and thank you, you know, thank you for you know this, this nice interview. And I hope catch 22 can be successful. And you know, you know, catch everybody's eye on this film. It's a really great film. Every all the guys in the film, they're really great actors. Even though I had a short film, it was just a great opportunity to just be in, you know, that world of film.

Dave Bullis 50:50
Yeah, it's been a pleasure having you here. And you know, I'm definitely gonna, you know, link to everything that we talked about in the show notes, again, for everyone listening. So Charmane where could we find you out online?

Charmane Star 51:03
Well, you can find me on my social media. It's very easy. It's just at Charmane Star on my Twitter and my Instagram, and then I have a Facebook fan page, Charmane Star. And if you also want to read, you know, a lot of just hearsay, what says my blog, charmanestar.com, and that's it.

Dave Bullis 51:25
Charmane Star, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show.

Charmane Star 51:39
Thank you Dave for having me.

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BPS 457: The Untold Stories of Women in Action Cinema with Melanie Wise

February 5, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Sometimes the film industry opens doors, and sometimes you have to build the door yourself. On today’s episode, we welcome Melanie Wise, an actress, producer, and founder of the Artemis Women in Action Film Festival. Standing six feet tall, Melanie discovered early that Hollywood wasn’t built for women who didn’t fit its narrow mold. Struggling to land traditional roles and tired of being typecast, she turned to producing her own projects, determined to tell stories where women weren’t victims but warriors.

Her breakthrough came with Hannah’s Gift, a horror-action film she produced and starred in, which won multiple festival awards. But the road wasn’t easy. Technical setbacks destroyed the original masters, forcing her team to reshoot the film entirely. Instead of breaking her, the challenge sharpened her skills as both a producer and post-production powerhouse. She carried those lessons into her larger mission: creating a platform where strong female leads could thrive without compromise.

That vision led to the launch of the Artemis Women in Action Film Festival, a global event dedicated to celebrating badass women on screen and in real life. From honoring icons like Zoë Bell, Nichelle Nichols, and Paul Feig, to spotlighting stuntwomen who risk it all for unforgettable scenes, the festival has become a beacon for action storytelling with women at the center. As Melanie put it, the festival proves there’s a massive audience hungry for female-driven action, and the worldwide submissions—from places as unexpected as Iran—show that this movement is not limited by borders.

Beyond screenings, Artemis has uncovered hidden histories of women in sports, the military, and aviation, stories too often left untold. Panels have featured pioneers like WWII’s WASP pilots, reminding audiences that women have always been forces of action both on and off screen. With fans crowdfunding the festival year after year, Melanie sees undeniable proof that people want to see empowered women in leading roles — and are willing to back it with their wallets.

For Melanie, the work is both personal and universal. She knows firsthand the obstacles women face in Hollywood, but she also knows the thrill of defying them by creating your own path. With Artemis, she’s not just producing a festival; she’s building a movement that challenges outdated industry narratives and showcases the limitless potential of women in film.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:20
Hi Melanie, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Melanie Wise 1:56
Thanks so much for having me was a pleasure.

Dave Bullis 1:59
Oh, it's great having you on, Melanie. And I just wanted to ask and question I ask everybody, and that is, you know, how did you start in the film industry?

Melanie Wise 2:09
Oh, God, you know, it's, I'm six feet tall, and, you know, so, you know, I started out modeling, I moved to acting. And I do think that my height was absolutely a detriment. So, you know, basically, yeah, that, yeah, you know. I think I knew from when I was itty bitty that I wanted to, you know, the arts horror where, what blew my skirt up, you know, but it just, it took me a while to get around to it. I think I started modeling, I think when I was like 20, which is actually kind of old in model terms, you know, finally turned my attention to acting. And, you know, it was like, I come in to read for producers, you know, quite a lot, and they'd never hire me. And I think a lot of it had to do with being taller than the leading men. So, so that's when I, you know, I started producing my own content. And, you know, and that even is a struggle. There is. I I do think there is this. It's, I think it's tougher for taller women and and the other tall women that I've spoken to that are in the industry, I It has been a common theme that they struggle as well, you know, and then, and then, add to that, that, you know, I don't, well, actually, let me be really bald about it. I completely suck at selling the victim, which is usually the roles that are available to women so and you know, it was one of those where, you know, for a long time, our our interest, you know, the me and my teammates, we just we liked strong female leads, and we like women in action. And after running into so many obstacles with it, we were like, Screw it. Let's start a festival. And you know, it's like, if we want to see more of this stuff in the world, then we'll create a place for it to play. And that brings us all the way to the festival. And I didn't mean to, like, jump that far ahead.

Dave Bullis 4:25
No, no, it's no problem, yeah, but you know it, but you were talking about, you know, auditioning. And, you know, I did read your bio, and you were a former basketball standout, correct?

Melanie Wise 4:38
Yeah, I used to play about, Well, I grew up playing sports, and, you know, I still play sports So, but, yeah, no, I, I don't, I guess you could say I have a lot of Mars energy. I think that's the best way, you know, and that war like nature, yeah, that's me.

Dave Bullis 5:00
Yeah, so when you were modeling, and you answered the age around 20, you know, what were some of the experiences there and did, was it? Was it anything similar to when you started doing acting? Did you find any parallels between the two?

Melanie Wise 5:15
Actually, it was just stellar irony, because I started modeling here in California, and at the time, the majority of the industry here was the swimsuit industry, because everyone goes, Oh, well, models are need to be tall. Well, for the swimsuit industry, they hire these itty bitty chicks, and I didn't fit that either. I think my timing has just been kind of sucky, you know, and then I went to Europe, and I did okay. There, I wound up coming home, and I hung up my modeling shoes for reasons I don't even think I remember clearly. And I think it was about three years later that I started banging on the door, you know, in terms of acting.

Dave Bullis 6:08
So when you went to your first audition, you know, what were some of your memories from there? I mean, I mean, you were just saying, you know, you were, since you're six foot tall, you're tall, taller than some of the leading men. So when, when you were going to some of these auditions, or maybe some of these casting calls, you know, you know, what were some of your experiences there? Did you Did you know The Did anyone say anything about your height or what did you know wasn't the experience there? That's what I'm trying to say.

Melanie Wise 6:35
Yeah, no, well, they can't say anything about your height.

Dave Bullis 6:39
No, I was just wondering if I maybe said like, oh, wow, Melanie, you know, you're tall, or anything like that.

Melanie Wise 6:44
No, no. I Well, it's, you know, typically on your resume, your your height is there. So I mean, if they were surprised when I showed up, that was for their lack of reading, because it was right out in front. But you know, I would get a lot of calls for the dumb athlete. Or, you know, actually got cast in a Sunkiss commercial because I was big enough to tackle a guy, you know, stuff like that, you know. So it, while, you know, I don't consider height a specialty, I think the film industry might, you know, that's just like, you know, anyway, yeah, no, I got odd stuff and, you know, and I did get the auditions for victims and such. And, you know, honestly, I suck at it. I can, I can try. I can spend, you know, weeks in preparation. I don't think I will ever sell the victim

Dave Bullis 7:42
Well, well, I want to, I wanted to, you know, as we talk about, you know, auditions and stuff, you know, wanted to ask about Hannah's gift. And you know, you were the lead actress in the horror action film Hannah's gift, and you also won Best Actress at the indie fest Film Festival. So, you know, when you all didn't know when you audition for that, you know, was, was there, you know, I'm going to tell you, I don't, I haven't seen the film, obviously, but it were, you know, were you taller than leading man? Was there? You know, I want to, I actually want to hear about, about that film.

Melanie Wise 8:16
Well, I didn't have to audition for that because I produced it. I Yeah. So, yeah, no, that's But was I? Yes, I was taller than them, then the than the men that were cast in it, but that's usually, you know, I wasn't, it wasn't like they were itty bitty in which does happen in a lot of cases. But you know, I was probably an inch taller than the guy that was in it, you know, it doesn't show, but I knew that, and honestly, I wouldn't care. You know, I am. I love coming across people that don't care, because the bottom line of it is, just as there are tall men out there, there are short men, there are tall women, there's short women. You know, it's like, we're going to be all over the place. And then this idea that the leading man is always supposed to be taller than the female is confusing to me, because the only thing that I think that it offends is the male ego, yeah.

Dave Bullis 9:23
And I can, you know, I understand perfectly what you mean. And, you know, I want to talk more, you know about hatties gift, and you mentioned you were a producer on the film, and now I'm interested to hearing, you know, about the whole producing aspect of this, you know? Because I always like to hear about actors who get into, you know, screenwriting and producing, because what you're doing is you're making your own opportunities, which I think is absolutely golden. I think that is so imperative you know that you know not you know, everybody should be out there, you know, trying to make their own opportunities, you know, and at the same time looking at other projects. So that way you always have, you know, almost like a fallback plan, or having, you know, multiple irons in the fire. So to speak. So when you're producing, you know, Hannah's gift, where did you step, you know, step in as the producer? Did you meet with the director and the writer and and sort of you know, say, Hey, I could actually help produce this.

Melanie Wise 10:23
No, actually, well, yes, and no, the writer director is, we've been producing content together for a long time, and he has, he wrote strong female leads, you know, long before it was popular, and you know, so I met him, and the reason why we got on so well is because we had a similar taste. But, I mean, he writes absolutely beautiful female characters, and so no, when we went forward to produce it, I didn't step in and offer, you know, it was something that he and I actually steadfastly planned out, you know, of the the for the resources that we had and the projects that we had, it was the best one to produce. Because, you know, when you get into low budget production, you know, you can't do an epic fantasy on a micro budget, and that's just the simple truth of it. So you have to choose the project that you can pull off the best with the resources that you have. And you know, in terms of actual production. I mean, I did everything from, you know, planning all of it, to carrying the trash out on set. You know, it's one of those where, if you are going to produce your own content, unless you're showing up to the table with an A decent budget, you are, you're going to bust your ass.

Dave Bullis 11:57
Yeah, it's true. It's extra. Melanie, you as a producer, when you're producing stuff, you know, independent film and stuff, you know, with, with, you know, small locations, a smaller crew. You know, everyone does have to play multiple roles. You know, wear multiple hats, and that's, you know, it's something I, you know, I've been as I've been doing it, you know, things that I learned up along the way is that, and, you know, hey, you know, even if you're a producer, you got to, you know, figure out you know how to get from point A to point B and meet what I mean by that is, you know, hey, you got to, someone's got to go out there wave the pizza guy down. Someone's got to go out there and make sure these guys are coming on the set at the right time and but you're also got to do something else at the same time. So it's like juggling constantly to make sure that that engine, so to speak, of the film is constantly moving.

Melanie Wise 12:44
Yes, no, it won't. For me, it's like, I don't do some people are very comfortable sitting and and I'm probably the most a type personality I've ever met. It's like, you know, I do better when I'm actually in motion. So for me, acting and producing, I don't think is wearing too many hats on set. It's a little bit difficult. But you know, you know your pre production, there are a few things that I can do on set, and then in post, that's post is where probably the bulk of my experience actually lends the most to any anything, because it's like, I can, I have a lot of post production skills, you know, I edit, I do sound effects, you know. You know, I'm pretty much a one stop post house. So, yeah, I mean, I can, there's a lot that I can do with footage.

Dave Bullis 13:49
So did you do any of the post production work for Hannah's gift?

Melanie Wise 13:53
Um, I did, I did. I didn't do, I didn't do, I didn't edit it. No, we had, we had several editors, and we actually went through a mountain of editors for the film, because it was told from the conceit of the film is that it's in real time, and it's told from the point of view of one of the characters, which is actually really difficult to pull off in terms of a production. But the second thing is, is that when we started, you know, interviewing editors, you know, we would explain ad nauseam, you know, how we wanted the film to be edited. And I'm not joking, I think five different editors tried to cut it as a standard film, and you know, it was just one of those where it wasn't landing. So we went through a lot of editors. Ultimately, our masters got destroyed. So we wound up shooting the film a second time, and that's when I was able. To bring the appropriate crew to the table and finish it.

Dave Bullis 15:05
So what So Melanie, that that's that's really interesting and heartbreaking to hear. So how did your masters get destroyed?

Melanie Wise 15:13
Like, my guess is, see, it was interesting. Everybody, nobody wanted to start with in the ingested footage. Everybody wanted to start from scratch, you know, I'll get the I'll add, you know, I'll ingest the footage. And literally, the teeps just suffered. I'll bet money, somebody had a deck that was out of calibration, and it stretched the same

Dave Bullis 15:43
So when you learned that, that you had to reshoot the movie again, what was the first thing that came through your mind?

Melanie Wise 15:52
Um, you know, it's funny. You know, I sweat the small stuff in life. That one, I didn't, I wasn't, like, up in arms over it. But, you know, pretty much it was, I think it was like a month after we learned that the Masters had been destroyed, we were actually producing the film for a second time because the stuff just wasn't fixable.

Melanie Wise 16:16
We would have had, you know, all kinds of artifacts in the in the footage, it was just easier to reshoot it.

Dave Bullis 16:26
You know that that's something similar, somewhat similar to what happened to me. I had a editor who I gave, we admit we shot on actual SD cards, and we gave him all the footage. And that was my first mistake. I should have, I should have kept a copy for myself. And what happened was, he took the footage, he started to edit it, and then basically he had a bunch of problems with his with his business partners, and basically stopped working on everything. Well, his laptop started to go all wonky, and he was asking people for money to fix it. And I said to him, Well, you know, you still have the footage. And he said, Yes. And I said, well, I need to get that back, so I'll chip in some money. Well, he comes back to me finally, about a couple weeks later, and he says, Well, I couldn't raise any money, all I had, you know, and this laptop is just about to die, and this, that and the other thing. So I kept hounding on him to get me back this footage, and he never respond to calls. And then one day, he just deleted me off Facebook, and I actually sent him an email and I said, you know, I said, You're You're lucky that I don't hold you accountable for that lost footage, and he didn't respond back to that. And about a month or so after that, some people also said that he had gotten them into trouble because he had taken on, like, wedding videos, and he hadn't edited any of it. He just sat on the footage, and people were, you know, different brides were asking him, Hey, where's my footage at? And he just let it all sit. And I don't think that guy works in the film industry anymore.

Melanie Wise 17:57
Um, yeah, no. With a reputation like that, you're not going to go far. Yeah, I see, yeah, no, it's in well, you know, it's funny, because I tend to be a little bit more old school about editing. It's like, I don't do anything on the laptop. I'm, you know, strictly desktop based. And one of the reasons why is just more stable.

Dave Bullis 18:21
Yeah. So let me ask you this, Melanie, when you we shot it and you, did you use that? I mean, like you said, you sweat the small stuff and that you you were, you took a lot better. Did you look at as a, sort of like a way to say, Okay, now I can sort of change any any problems I had before, or maybe I could fix any issues that arise before,

Melanie Wise 18:44
Yeah, any, any, anything you shoot, you are going to have an extraordinary learning curve. And, you know, you know, and you get to cringe through post, you know, beating yourself over the head with, how come I didn't think of this at that time. And so, you know, by shooting the film a second time, yes, we absolutely came up with a better finished product. There were, I mean, it was, you know, I have to say, if you don't learn, you know, if you have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes and you don't, well, ouch. Anyway, no, but we, we learned a lot shooting it the first time. So when we shot it the second time, it was literally the same story, but we did it a little differently. And, you know, we've but, but it took a long time. It was like I said, you know, it's one of those where, you know, I can look at something, and if somebody explains it to me, you know, it's like, I try to ask enough questions to really get a firm grip of what they are looking as for as their end product. And, you know, having gone through, I think we wound up going through a total of seven out of. On that project. And it was just mind numbing to me, where you know, you just see them, yes, yes, yes, you when you explained it, but then when you started getting your first cuts back, you're like, Wow, you didn't, you know, or it was an and it's one of those where I have a hard time believing it was so far, you know, out of the ordinary that someone just couldn't digest it, you know. But that's literally what happened.

Dave Bullis 20:36
So, yeah, it's, you know, I've experienced that too, where some some editors, and particularly when I was talking about was saying things like, Oh yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. And then you get it back, you're and you say, wait a minute, that's that's nothing. What I wanted. This is completely wrong. And I usually find the that's why that is one regard where I think emails like, every anytime I would, I would talk to him, whether it be in person, because we actually had him in person to come down, and we were talking to him about edits, right? And we're we had a big, uh, whiteboard in front of us, and we're marking it up, and we're saying, Okay, let's do this and this and this. And we we marked it all down, and then I sent him an email of everything we talked about. And then when we saw the Edit about a week or two later. It was completely wrong. And I'm sitting there going, was I not clear? Then I look back at the email and I'm sitting and I say to myself, Well, no, I I can see that I was I told him this. It's just, you know, either they didn't understand or they didn't read it, or they, you know, or just trying to basically reinvent the wheel.

Melanie Wise 21:38
Well, yeah. And I have, you know, I have come across editors who think they know better. And it doesn't matter if you know better than the person that is standing there, if, if someone is paying you to edit something, give them what they're asking for, you know. And because I, I've seen plenty of people who would like to kind of, you know, direct from the editing chair, which you can do and you know, but it's also one of those where I I also take, you know, what's clear to me, if I was communicating to myself and I consider something clear, it doesn't necessarily mean it's clear to anyone else but me. So even if, as I express it, you know, I could be saying, well, the sky is blue, and they could be hearing that the sky is green. And you know, those kinds of communication breakdowns occur all the time, especially when you are trying to breathe life into something that's not average or typical.

Dave Bullis 22:42
So, yeah, it's very true. And you know, that's why there's an old saying Melanie by Sun Tzu, the guy who with the art of war. It's basically, you know, if the communication breaks down, it's the fault of the commander to the generals, and he's and basically, if that, if he checks that out, but the instructions have been clear, then it must be the general's fault. It's something along the lines, I always butchered sayings here, by the way, on this podcast. But it was something, it was something like that. And basically, you know, he was telling a story that, you know, communication is always the the first person, whoever, who uses the communication. Who is that communications from? They should always assume that this is not clear to anybody but me, or this may be not clear to everybody else. So maybe so if there's ever a miscommunication, I should go back to myself first. But if I did, but if it is clear, then it is the fault of that person. And, you know, obviously in warfare, you know, that's he was talking about, you know, making sure that troop movements were okay. You know, in our, in our world of filmmaking, we have to make sure, you know, communication is key. Because it's moving crews around, it's moving actors around, it's and also it's instructions on editing a final piece.

Melanie Wise 23:54
Yeah, it's a tough job. Producing is not simple at all. And, you know, unless, like, you know, until you make it into, you know, the area of the industry where, you know you've got a decent budget, you're going to be understaffed. And you know that means it, you know, it's like the thing that you give up without money you're going to spend time and but no, I mean, it's a fun ride. It's an absolutely fun run.

Dave Bullis 24:30
So when you finally got the second you finally shot the movie for a second time, and you know, you got the final edit down the way you wanted to. So Did, did you go about submitting to certain festivals, or did you have certain festivals targeted for the for the film?

Melanie Wise 24:47
Well, yeah, no, sometimes you know what this sounds like, a harsh judgment of myself, but it really isn't. It's more of a humorous one. It's like sometimes I feel like I have idiots stamped on my for. Head. Because the thing that you've got to realize with anything that is not a dramedy, excuse me, a drama, comedy or a documentary, most film festivals are not geared to take ingest that content, unless it's a specialty festival. And so people make things that are a little unusual or a little off the beaten track, and it is more difficult to get those types of films placed in any festival.

Dave Bullis 25:31
Yeah, as you know, there's more submissions to various festivals. I know it is, you know, the marketplace gets a little more crowded, and it's a little, you know, harder to stand out, so to speak, and but you know, you actually won for Best Actress at the indie fest Film Festival. So were you in attendance to collect that award?

Melanie Wise 25:52
No, actually, I wasn't. We actually with that we got, we won audience choice at shocker fest. I think we collected a total of, I think, four or five awards for that film. And it was, it was funny because, you know, it was kind of alert. I'm not answering your question, and I don't mean to not answer it, but I was going to distract with something else. So I get, you know, when I submitted us to shocker fest, and then I get the rejection notice, and, like, a week later, they're saying, hey, you've been, you know, or you've been selected to screen at this. And I write them this kind of sniffy email back, saying, you know, hey, you just told me I didn't get in. So what's the real story here. So I think what happened was, is they had something that they picked had fallen out, and so they were taking an alternate and it was one of those where I don't think the people who ran the festival were particularly fond of the film and but they were absolutely shocked when we won audience choice. So that was kind of funny. Yeah, again, it's, it's one of those where, even if it's one of the reasons that we started the festival, it's like, because a lot of the content that we play is not going to show at a lot of other festivals, because those festivals, if you just look at the whole festival world and and what gets played. Genre films are not what they play.

Dave Bullis 27:30
So, you know, as is we were going to talk about now, about the Artemis Film Festival. You know, what was sort of the impetus to start that? Was it, you know, just to show those films that you just said, just to show films that wouldn't get shown anywhere else or so. I shouldn't say certain jobs that were getting shown at certain festivals I should say.

Melanie Wise 27:47
Actually, more to the point is that I have had a long standing belief that women in action is a very lucrative thing, you know. And every few years or so, you'll see, you know, should come out from the studios where they say that women in action is box office poison. I don't remember, if you do. You remember that film, eon flux, that starred Charlize the wrong well, that did not do very well. And I remember, at the time, at that time, I was, you know, very much into studying box office revenues and and what stuff was earning. And hands down, for many years, action is the best selling genre of films above ever anything and, you know, and it's one of those where we have probably almost five decades, where we have a smattering of films that feature women in action, and there's always some excuse not to make more. And when eon flux, the last time I saw it in the trades, you know where they're saying, oh, women in action is Box Office Poison was right around a on flux. And, you know, it was like, you know, a few years prior to that, you know, you'd see comments here and there. But now we're seeing, you know, especially in the last, like, three or four years, we're seeing an ex, we're seeing a tide change. And if you look on TV, you've got an extraordinary number of shows that feature, you know, pretty empowered women and female characters, a lot of women in action. And so that market is there. But if you look at it's it's one of those where I think the biggest impetus there was two impetuses for the festival. One was to create a space for the content to play, and two is to prove that there's an extraordinary audience for it. Because, you know, it's like we get films from 25 countries around the globe on. Most every year, we have a worldwide audience. You know, our social media fans are all over the world, you know. So it's like, this isn't something that is just interesting to a certain group of the population on a certain in a certain area of the world. It's all over. I mean, our first year we had, we actually had a was an animated film. It was, you know, claymation from Iran. And you know, so of all places in the world, we're literally taking in content from Iran, where they are celebrating the strength of the female of the species, which is really kind of ironic. And you know, it's like, because of the festival, we get extraordinary pieces of history for, you know, women that a lot of people don't know about. That's really cool, too. I mean, like, you know, odd fact, did you know that the winningest basketball team in all of written history is a woman's basketball team out of Texas. I think they were called the Flying queens, and think they played from like, like 19, it was like the mid 50s through like, I can't remember the year stretch it is, but it started in like 1956 I think. And they have the little, literally, the winningest basketball record in all of history. Nobody knows about this.

Dave Bullis 31:47
You know, go ahead, no, I was gonna say, Yeah, I didn't, I've, I didn't know that, yeah?

Melanie Wise 31:53
Well, when we showed it at the festival, nobody knew it. It was, it was interesting. Last year, we had a couple of articles written by people. They were published during the festival, but they were published by people who were actually showed up to a few of the the screenings and events that we had. And, you know, it was really awesome to for to see them, right? Wow. I had no idea, you know. But this is, I mean, these are things that should be widely available, then they're not and, and, and it should be widely available not just because we're sitting here going, Oh, it's time to pay attention to women, but because they're part of our history, and they're out there and nobody knows about it. Yeah. It has a it's like, when you talk about women in action, you're going to be talking about, you know, women in sports, military, you know, narrative, obviously, of any genre, but it's like you're in the mill. You know, in the military, stories we get, you know, they're jaw dropping because you don't realize how much women have actually contributed to, you know, military efforts all the way back to World War Two. You know, we've showed films about, you know, the first ladies that actually ever flew aircraft for the military, and they would even test the shit for the guys to fly and, you know, and so they had these, you know, amazing few years of flying airplanes and having this incredibly adventuresome life. And then when the men came back to war, they were, you know, told to go back home and cook for their kids.

Dave Bullis 33:38
Yeah, there's also a history of war two, there's a history of, you know, female fighters. And you know, when the, when the Nazis invaded, in 1941 there was, you know, like women were fighting alongside the battlefield. And they actually, you know, were pilots. I think they were called the, there was actually a pilot group called the, think, the witches or something, or something like that. It was a bit, they were basically, you know, flying these old fashioned planes. But they were just, but, you know, because they were taking on the invading Nazi force,

Melanie Wise 34:07
Yeah, weren't they the witches out of Russia?

Dave Bullis 34:09
Yeah, it, but I think there was a name. I think it was something witches, I can't remember, but, uh, I'll link to that in the show notes everybody.

Melanie Wise 34:15
Yeah, no, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure you are correct. And then for the US, you had the the wasps, and they were the women Air Force Service Pilots, I believe, yeah, we actually were lucky enough to have a 93 year old Wasp at the festival for one of our warrior women panels last year. I'm sorry, yeah, go no go ahead.

Dave Bullis 34:39
I was gonna say, did a lot of people, you know, ask her about the war.

Melanie Wise 34:42
Oh, hell yeah, yeah, no. And it was literally, I think it was late last year, they actually finally started getting, um, death benefits for these ladies that died in service, you know, because during that period of time when these women were flying, because they were. Were, they were flying back and forth, or some of them were stationed in Europe and they but they basically just did a lot of supply flying and other types of flying for the US. And you know, if one of their, if one of the lady pilots died in service, the ladies literally collected money between themselves to actually bring their bodies back, because, because the because the US government wouldn't pay for it, and they literally just, I think it was late last year where they actually got that. I think they got the law to change so that their death benefits were covered. I mean, some of the stuff, I mean, you know, some of the stuff is mind numbing, and people need to know about it.

Dave Bullis 35:52
Yeah, it absolutely it's very fascinating. And you know that, and again, you know, I'm looking at, you know, some of the people that that you've had at the festival, some of the honorees, you've had Zoe Bell, you've had Yancey Butler, and you've even had Paul Feig on. Some of the honorees, yes, yeah.

Melanie Wise 36:11
And it's absolutely amazing, yeah, no. And this year, and there's more, there's more to announce, but this year we have Tom Cruise, Michelle Nichols, who was Lieutenant Uhura in the first Star Trek. So, I mean, and this, I mean, this lady literally broke so many barriers by playing that role. It's, you know, I mean, to recount that would take a moment, so I won't bore you with the gory details. And then we have some, uh, absolutely fantastic stunt ladies. And one stunt guy, Andy Armstrong, who is Andy Armstrong, is probably one of the top second unit action directors for, you know, big budget blockbuster films. And he happens to be an extraordinary supporter of female stunt women. He actually hires a lot of them, which is really cool. Jennifer Caputo, who's been a stunt woman for more than two decades, and she does all kinds of wacky shit. And then Tammy Baird, who's a she does an amazing body of stunt work as well, but she does the best car hits you can imagine. So I mean she literally, you know, steps out in front of a car in high heels and a doily for a dress, and lets the car hit her. And then there's, gosh, there's one more person, and I'm totally spacing it off. I feel like an idiot.

Dave Bullis 37:38
But don't go bad. Don't feel bad. Melanie, every time I do this podcast, my brain stops working. I swear to God,

Melanie Wise 37:46
Yeah, but no. I mean, we have, this year, we'll have some amazing honorees, and we have, we actually have a couple other announcements coming down the pipeline that are going to be pretty juicy too.

Dave Bullis 37:56
That's fantastic. And, I mean, I and you know, you also have some great media partners. You have film inquiry, you have ink tip, and you have action movie freak, you know. And you know that that's actually a question I wanted to ask is, do, are you at a position now, or where, like different partners pitch you, you know what I mean to So are they finding you out and saying, hey, you know, Melanie's got, you know, the Artemis Film Festival, you know, we should, we should, you know, talk about, you know, sponsoring something here,

Melanie Wise 38:25
Yeah, no, okay, just so, you know. So our first two years of putting the festival on, we were, we crowdfunded, and so, I mean, so we are a fan backed festival, you know. And our, our media partners to date are, you know, basically it's, you know, we basically do cross promotions because we benefit each other and and it's, you know, it's great to find and people that you are proud to promote for the stuff that they do. But yeah, I think we are, we are working on sponsorship, you know, the actual dollar kind, which, you know, so we are working on that, but we will be, you know, we will be crowdfunding again, probably starting right at the beginning of February.

Dave Bullis 39:15
So are you going to be crowdfunding through Indiegogo or Kickstarter?

Melanie Wise 39:19
We'll probably run on Indiegogo, which is where we've been the last two years. Although I am considering, I am considering another crowdfunding platform for a few, a few different reasons, but, but, yeah, the last two years, we've run on Indiegogo, and, you know, we generally call it the women kick ass project, because that's our hashtag. And, you know, we, you know, it's kind of cool to be able to say, hey, we have a completely fan backed Festival, which is what we have.

Dave Bullis 40:06
Yeah, it is amazing. Have a fan back festival. It really, it really, truly is because that way you know, you know exactly. You know where it's you know where the bread is buttered, so to speak. You know exactly what to you know. You know what I mean, like there's no re so many pull the strings behind the scenes, so to speak. If you know what I mean,

Melanie Wise 40:24
No that. Well, there's that. But also, to me, the fact that it's fan base we have. We have a base of fans that are willing to literally financially get behind the production of the festival. It should speak loudly to the fact that people like women in action, damn it, period. So, you know, and, and we get, we get backers all from all over the place too. So it's, it's that, that part is, you know, corporate sponsorship will make, would make our life a lot easier, but I don't I. I can't really express a my gratitude, but also the, for lack of better words, pride that our fans like us so much that they contribute to the production of the film festival. I mean, you know, I plaster their names all over our website, and I put them in our festival program, because I want everyone to know.

Dave Bullis 41:29
And when you know it is 2017 when is the festival for 2017 Do you have, you have a set date right now?

Melanie Wise 41:36
Yeah, now we're going to be our opening night is going to occur at the aria in Los Angeles. It's a theater that's right near Wilson, las cienegas, La Cienega and Beverly Hills, and that'll be April 20, and then the last three days of the festival, the 21st through the 23rd will occur in Santa Monica at lemleys On second in Arizona.

Dave Bullis 41:59
And can people just go to do Artemis Fowl festival.com to buy tickets.

Melanie Wise 42:06
They can. They're not. They're not available for sale. What, what will happen is, when we open up our crowdfunding, that's the first place screening passes will go up for sale after that. Obviously, you know, they'll be available through Lemley as well as our website. And, you know, we have an extraordinary year coming. We've got some we have really astounding content to share. And, you know, we'll have an extraordinary array of panels. You know, we'll have our stunt woman panel. We'll probably have a warrior women panel. We are also going to put together, probably a VR panel, because virtual reality is an extraordinary burgeoning field that is wide open, if women want to jump in.

Dave Bullis 42:56
Yeah, I've seen more filmmakers starting to, you know, sort of dabble in VR, sort of putting their foot in their foot in their water, so to speak, you know, testing the orders out, just to see, you know, see, you know what it's all about. And I'm, I'm actually interested to be honest with you, Melanie, about which way it's going to go. I have, I could see, on one hand, VR going the way of something like 3d where, you know it was, it works well in some areas, but most people, sort of, you know, go back to, you know, the way we do things, you know, normally, or if it's going to be like, sort of like the future, where you just put on the VR headset and you can, pretty much, you know, you can do, you know, go play video games, then you switch it in and out. You're watching a movie, and it's all that, you know, that VR immersive experience,

Melanie Wise 43:41
You know, one of the things that I get that is very interesting to me is, as it comes to narrative, it will be very curious to me to see how that plays out, because we generally don't stand, you know, and you know VR, if you're doing immersive VR, you've Got a headset on, and you know, whichever direction you turn, you have some view available to you, right, which requires the ability to stand. I wonder if people will literally stand. Let's say if it was a narrative film you're looking at, you know, somewhere between 90 to 120 minutes, I'm having a hard time seeing people stand to watch a movie like that. Yeah, you know. So I do think I am 100% certain where VR is going to blow a lot of shit open. You know, it's going to be it, you know, we're always, I mean, come on, look. You know, every, every few years, we're updating our technology, and so it's part of life, and that's just the way it goes. Is things are going to change. People are going to be looking for the next best, new, you know, bigger, better, faster, more, kind of a thing. And, you know, and you know, I do think that you. You know, people will still continue to watch flatties, you know, so I don't think, I just think it's going to be in another area of, you know, the filmed moving image and but the other, the other cool part about VR is some of the stuff that they're doing to actually make a difference, you know, in terms of learning. And there are people that I know that are developing programs for, you know, empathy, um, they're doing all kinds of stuff. I mean, VR is a vast, vast world, and I think that, you know, it's how it's getting used, hasn't even been tapped. There's an and there's, it's just, it's a brand new wide open field, yeah.

Dave Bullis 45:48
And, you know, again, I am very interested to see, you know, which way it actually goes. And I wonder too, if you know, that will be just the new norm. I also wonder if that would be like, the new way to go to work will literally just be like, you know, hey, I'm gonna put on my VR headset and work remotely, because we can have conferences remotely. And, you know, I can just put on my headset. Or maybe I can even work through, like, almost like, actually in the VR world and using holograms, moving holograms around, or, or what have you were actually coming out, you know, you know, I mean, because, again, you know, now everything is so accelerated with tech. You know, every, like you said, Every few years, or something new coming down the pike that sort of disrupts what was just disrupted.

Melanie Wise 46:30
Yeah, yeah. One, one of the things that I always look at with our technology is, you know, the more we immerse ourselves into technology, the less we are can be not always, but the less we are available to, you know, just basic human interaction. And so, I mean, there is, it's a blessing, curse, kind of a thing, you know, because the more disconnected we become from actual, real life, you know, that can cause some, some pretty big problems, you know. But you know, tech is, it's an amazing tool. And, you know, I think that we, we need, we really need to use it wisely. And you know, just, it's no different than the messages that we create with our with our flat, moving images. You know, I think content creators have a responsibility, and I think they really need to take an extraordinary consideration of the messages that they're putting out into the world.

Dave Bullis 47:35
Yeah, very true, very true. Melanie. So, you know, Melanie, you know we've been talking for about 45 minutes now. And I want to ask, you know, you know, in closing, is there anything that we weren't able to discuss that you may want to know to talk about, or do you have any sort of closing thoughts for this whole conversation?

Melanie Wise 47:53
Wow, that's a tough question.

Dave Bullis 47:54
It is. It's a very open ended question. I usually ask that on purpose, just to because it can be anything, really,

Melanie Wise 48:01
Yeah, no, honestly, while we, I mean, we've talked about so much, you know, but no, I obviously, you know, for people who who like seeing empowered images on screen, or just, I mean literally, badass women in action, you know, hey, check us out. It's Artemis film festival.com and you know, we love hearing from you people,

Dave Bullis 48:26
And I will link to that in the show notes, everybody where you can also follow me everywhere I'm on all the social media channels, just like Melanie is. And you know, I I'm getting really big into YouTube now, Melanie, I've realized, yeah, that that's where I've, I've should have been, well, I don't want to, I don't want to bore you with with my whole you don't mind telling me, I want to hear this. Okay, so about a few years ago, I had two opportunities to do, to do web series for on YouTube. Both, both were comedies. Both were like, you know, one was like half hour. Another one was like 10 minutes. I passed on both of them and for for a number of reasons, well, you know, now I kind of look back and I go, you know, it just makes sense for me being in the film industry, meaning this podcast, I upload the podcast to YouTube as well. And what I'm trying to say, out of all this, is I should have been on YouTube first. Be on Twitter, be on Facebook, be on Instagram. Because it just, it's more, it's more correlates more to what we do. And that's why I'm now, I'm getting back into doing, you know, the YouTube stuff. And I, and I actually switched channels about two years ago. I had one before, where I would just put it was like, it wasn't really filmmaking stuff. It was like, random stuff. It was like random stuff I was throwing up there for different stuff. I was doing a lot of freelance videography work, just, there's a whole bunch of other stuff. So finally, closed down that channel, got this new channel. I upload pretty much every podcast episode on there, and slowly, just trying to grow more of an audience on YouTube.

Melanie Wise 50:10
Yeah, no YouTube. YouTube is the number two search engine behind Google, yeah. And you know, it's like, I've known for a long time that YouTube is a very, very, very powerful platform, but it's also one of those where I, I have also been delinquent on YouTube.

Dave Bullis 50:29
See, we could both. We can both now, you know, not be so delinquent anymore. We could both finally get up on YouTube and start, you know, putting all of our stuff on there. Because, honestly, I've had a lot of people find the podcast through YouTube. I've had people find some of my short films. I basically tried to throw everything I could up there that I want people to see. Because, you know, I've made a few, few student short films that I didn't really, weren't really that good at the end of the day. So I was like, I won't show this to anybody else.

Melanie Wise 50:58
Yeah, you know, you got to do it. You gotta do them.

Dave Bullis 51:02
Yeah, yeah. And I just basically use them as a learning experience. And then basically was like, I'll never talk about this ever again.

Melanie Wise 51:11
I hear you. Well, we have, um, I will, I will make sure to check out your, your your YouTube page. What is, what's the name of it?

Dave Bullis 51:21
Real Iron Fist films.

Melanie Wise 51:22
I would not have found that. Awesome. I look forward. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 58:51
Oh, no, my pleasure is all mine, you know, I want to say thank you for coming on, Melanie.

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BPS 456: The New Rules of Indie Filmmaking No One Is Teaching with the Jalbert Brothers

January 29, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we sit down with the Jalbert Brothers, two filmmakers who embody what modern independent cinema truly looks like. Their story isn’t about massive budgets, studio deals, or film school prestige — it’s about relentless execution, skill-building, and using whatever tools are available to tell stories. By embracing low-budget filmmaking and treating every project as both a creative experiment and a marketing opportunity, the Jalbert Brothers have built a sustainable path forward in an industry that often rewards those who simply refuse to wait for permission.

Their journey began where many filmmakers start — making videos for fun, learning through trial and error, and slowly developing a voice. Instead of chasing investors or waiting for grants, they focused on producing short films and features for as little as $1,000. That limitation wasn’t a setback; it was the strategy. By working with minimal gear, tight locations, and small crews, they were able to sharpen their storytelling instincts and technical skills at a rapid pace. Each project became a hands-on education in directing, editing, sound, and pacing.

What sets the Jalbert Brothers apart is their understanding that filmmaking today isn’t just about making a movie — it’s about building momentum. They approach every project with distribution and audience in mind from day one. Social media platforms, online releases, and digital marketing are not afterthoughts; they are baked into the creative process. By consistently releasing content, they trained their audience to expect new work while simultaneously improving their craft with each film.

They also challenge the traditional belief that bigger budgets equal better films. In their experience, skill and discipline matter far more than money. A $1,000 film forces you to solve problems creatively, prioritize story, and eliminate excess. Those constraints lead to clarity — and clarity leads to better filmmaking. Rather than being overwhelmed by options, they make decisive creative choices and move forward quickly, which allows them to grow faster than filmmakers stuck in endless development.

Another key lesson from the Jalbert Brothers is the importance of repetition. They don’t believe in waiting years between projects. Instead, they advocate for consistent output — making films back-to-back and learning from real-world feedback rather than theoretical advice. Each release teaches them something new about storytelling, audience behavior, and marketing. That feedback loop becomes invaluable, especially in an industry that constantly evolves.

The brothers also emphasize collaboration and adaptability. Working closely together has allowed them to divide responsibilities, support each other creatively, and maintain momentum even when challenges arise. Their partnership proves that filmmaking doesn’t have to be a solitary struggle — it can be a shared pursuit built on trust, communication, and a unified vision.

Ultimately, the Jalbert Brothers represent a new generation of filmmakers who understand that the barriers to entry have shifted. Technology is accessible, distribution is democratized, and audiences are everywhere — but only if you’re willing to do the work. Their story is proof that filmmaking success today comes from action, not approval. By embracing limitations, staying consistent, and treating every project as both art and opportunity, they’ve created a roadmap for filmmakers who are tired of waiting and ready to start.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I have two brothers who started their careers in video production 15 years ago as kids making home videos in their family's backyard. One does a lot of the producing. One does a lot of the cinematography, and that's a good team to have. They their credits include producer and first assistant director for the feature film apple of my eye, starring Burt Reynolds and Amy Smart and they also teach a hell of a lot of awesome seminars about making your first film for a few $1,000 $1,000 $2,000 with guests Brian and Jake Jalbert, the Jalbert brothers.

Brian Jalbert 2:29
Well, so I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take it back a little bit. The first time we started going full time was when we started actually, Jake with an entertainment company called Iris entertainment that was kind of like the first inkling of it. And Jake's actually does video full time. I don't I have a construction company, so therefore I'm doing that and I'm doing this at the same time. So Jake actually is the one actually more full time. He does video, full time editing, all that good stuff. But I would say, back in what, 2008 or 9?

Jake Jalbert 3:08
2009 we started a company, yeah, called Iris entertainment, where there was four of us. I did video. There's, you know, some guys that DJ in photography, um, but really, what I think the question you're really asking is, you know, when do we dive in and start realizing that we could actually maybe help some people and and because we've been through a couple projects and in different things, and from the fuga filmmaker, and looking at people talking to different filmmakers, you hear different stories, and it's like, ah, you know, if you, if you just knew this, I think you could this would help you. And that pretty much started, I would say, January, yeah, we've been doing it about a year. Yeah.

Brian Jalbert 3:43
And the thing about us, too, man, is it's not about really teaching per se, and the typical way of saying, Hey, this is the way you should do something, but it's more of documenting our journey per se, what we're doing, some of the things that helped us, and maybe some of the mistakes that we've made, and try to do options. See the problem. I see is there's all these old ideals going on right within the film community and the film ways of doing things. Nobody's really I shouldn't say nobody is doing it, but people need to start experimenting. It's it's, it's, there's new ways of doing things. There's ultimately going to be new people that are going to be coming out and made it, making it in those new ways. So figuring out whether it's making episodic and going and putting on Facebook, Facebook, not Facebook Live, but they got Facebook Watch now, and there's so many different avenues that we need to start, I think, really opening up to and figuring out how to make it work for the film community. If that makes sense.

Dave Bullis 4:51
Yeah, that makes total sense. And you know, you mentioned Facebook too, because with all the ways of distribution and stuff now, you know you have to take into account all. The social media aspects, and then they all got into video now and now, I mean, this is kind of sort of getting away from we're talking about, in a way, but I just saw that WWE is going to start doing live events on Facebook, and which is what I thought was going to happen, where you're going to start seeing, like TV shows or and more sports and stuff like that. They're not going to count on you for Nielsen ratings and watching it through your TV. They're going to count on you watching it on your phone, through Facebook.

Jake Jalbert 5:27
Well, if you think about it, they're going to miss the boat if they don't, you know it's like, it is the thing, you know what I'm saying, it is the thing

Brian Jalbert 5:34
Like, like, I don't know if you listen to the Gary V, yeah, if you really listen to those guys. And the thing about film community is you can't get stuck in the film community ways, what are other people doing, and how can we make that work? You know, Gary V likes to say, you know, take advantage of the situation that's going on and really see where the attention is. And, like, where, ultimately, where is people? Where are people? Eyeballs. It's on Facebook. It's on it's on the social media. It's not in the theaters like it used to be. And I don't get me wrong, theaters will always be there, and theaters are great. And, you know, I'd love to have my movie, you know, I've had a movie played in theater, but it was, you know, we four walled it. But if you, you know, if you actually having a company get it there, and having a wide release, that's, that's phenomenal. But that's not the only way, you know, and that's not the only way to make it work, you know, it's figuring out how to make it work I feel.

Dave Bullis 6:30
Yeah, exactly, you know. And you know, as you talk about doing this, like full time, just to take a step back, you know, that's sort of the crux, isn't it? You know, that's sort of the big question that a lot of filmmakers have, whether they're, you know, 20s or 30s or 40s or what have you, it's, you know, how do I make a how do I become a full time filmmaker, you know? How do I make my movie while at the same time working a day job so I don't go crazy trying to do both, you know? And so you you've actually started to do that. So like, what were some of the steps you took though to sort of just say, you know, what, I don't want to work in an office or do whatever. I want to go around shoot video. I mean, did you start, you know, going around to small businesses and shooting commercials and stuff like that?

Jake Jalbert 7:09
Well, I just, I went out. I went out honestly, and was just, I, we filmed as little kids, and we in the backyard. And, you know, 2009 I just bought a camera and just started filming stuff. And the biggest thing I would say to become full time being a filmmaker is just start making stuff. So start learn how to run camera. Learn how to run sound. A lot of people don't want to learn these things. They want to just direct um. To get a directing job like that is, I mean, it's not you just it's just not you have to learn skills. If you can build skills within camera, okay, you can make money. People will pay you. So, I mean, you just hit everybody up. You film stuff for free. Film tons of stuff. You get better and better. You keep getting better. There's Craigslist or Facebook. You just post your videos that you do on and people just start reaching out to you say, Oh, you become the video guy in your community. So now everybody knows me, you know, saying he does video, he shoots weddings, he shoots real estate videos, he shoots film, and you just become that guy, and work just starts coming in. For me, it was like I was a server, you know. So my job was doing, was serving, and then building my business on the side, video business. And it took about five or six years. So for me, it took about six years to build that, to be full time to where you know me and Brian, we've never liked sitting at a desk. We've never really done that. So we work for ourselves. So I mean, especially Brian, he won't work for nobody. Works for himself, and he does a great job, and he's always managed, and, you know, he kind of took the role as the producer, because he's always managed, and he's always kind of put things together, and, you know, knew how to deal with the tough situations that maybe I didn't know how to do, you know,

Brian Jalbert 8:54
And that's, I think that's the key. Okay, so going full time for a filmmaker is, what are you actually doing? Like, are you? Do you want to be a director like Jay said, learn to run camera. You know, I know a guy that's in our area who does film full time, and he started out in sound, right? He bought some sound gear, started doing stuff for free to get his reel up. Now he's known as the sound guy, and then, just recently, direct a movie. So there's ways in you just have to have that option in your brain looking for those other ways in, like when I went and I ended up being a first ad and a co producer for the apple of my eye movie, right? That wasn't by accident, and most people would say, Oh, well, you got to start as a PA, and you got to work your way up well, you know, I like Jay said, I don't like working for people. So I did that for certain reasons, because I've wanted to work with Burt Reynolds, I wanted to work with Amy Smart you know, I wanted that credit there, but I was able to jump a bunch of steps by building a network of people and not settling for a lower position per se. You know? Yeah, I was a co producer first ad. Normally, I like to run lead, but for that case scenario, I made exceptions and went and get it. You know what I'm saying. So I think that's ultimately what it's like, Jason, building skills

Jake Jalbert 10:25
To touch on that real quick, just super quick. I know we're moving on, but um, in the worst, worst, you know, worst comes to worst. You've built these skills that you have forever, um, and that's where now I can do video, and I can make money, and I can work my way into the industry where I want to be building. I mean, period, building, building skills, sales skills, marketing skills. We're doing it all because that's what it takes now, man, that's what it takes. I believe,

Dave Bullis 10:54
Yeah, it's like what Rob Rodriguez says, you know, if you have the talent, plus the know how you're unstoppable, which means, and by that, he means knowing the technology, how to use it, and then also being, you know, being able to be creative. You know, you're unstoppable then, because you don't have to, you know, depend on a lot of different people, because you had, again, you've built all these skills up. And just to take a step back to what you were just saying, Brian, I completely get where you're coming from. Man, you don't want to work for anybody else. I trust me. Man, I get that so much because I used to get offers all the time to produce other people's movies, and I would just say no. And when the people would ask why, I would say, because I want to make my stuff. I don't want to make your stuff.

Jake Jalbert 11:39
Isn't that? Isn't that. It is funny, because if we, if we got offered to maybe direct a big movie, we'd probably turn it down, because it's just like, I want to, we just want to do what we want to do, and for us, for us, it's doing our own projects, building our own empire, per se, yes, yeah.

Dave Bullis 11:56
And you know you want to, you want to, you know, people to make your stuff, because we're only on this earth for what? What, maybe 80 years, 90 years, I don't know, at the rate I'm going, I probably have about three more years. So anyways, but

Jake Jalbert 12:09
You got more net,

Dave Bullis 12:13
I tell you, some days I really wonder anymore. But anyways, it's all, it's all jokes, everybody. I'm not really like, you know, dying or anything, but, uh, but, you know, you know, as we talk about, you know, making all these movies and stuff like that, you guys have a piece of advice that you gave. And by the way, you guys doing Facebook video like promotions and Facebook videos, live chats. That's all genius marketing, by the way. So that's huge. And I don't see any other filmmaker, and I'm friends with a ton of filmmakers, believe me, I don't see any of them doing that stuff. I think you guys are really, like, ahead of the curve and doing that, doing that type of of, sort of, you're talking to your crowd, right? You know, directly, you're talking to the people that like your Facebook page. You're talking to people inside the Frugal Filmmaker page, and you're talking to them directly. And it becomes, it's based what I think that is, by the way, is what Google Hangout was trying to be, but they just couldn't get it right, and Facebook just copied it and just said, Hey, you know what? We can do it better anyway.

Jake Jalbert 13:17
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. It's just seeing around corners. It's seen around corners before anybody else, and that's how most people excel further. That's how Robert Rodriguez, did you know,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah. And so one of those video chats, you guys mentioned making a movie for 1000 bucks, which I, by the way, think is, is terrific advice, because I have seen too many people, and I'm sure you have to where they want to make a movie, and maybe whether their first time filmmaker, or maybe they made a few shorts, and all of a sudden they're trying to either raise like, 10,000 50,000 100,000 or more to make a film, and they don't have the experience to really utilize that budget, you know what I mean? And they so they end up spending money on the wrong things, or they they just completely end up just, you know, just destroying the the whole budget, because they just don't know how to handle it?

Brian Jalbert 14:01
Yeah, I agree. 100% man, just to put it in perspective, too, we went to the the AFM, right? So we're there, and we got a buddy there, and then we met this other gentleman. So there's two different budgets. I should say here. One was under 10,000 I'm not going to say the number, because it's, it's around where we're at, what we're talking about, but I don't want to completely throw it out there. So under 10,000 and then this other gentleman made his for around 500,000 Okay, and the two different comparisons is crazy. The other guy that made it for five had no experience, didn't get the right talent on board to make it happen. Okay, because it was his first time, and he actually blew money. That was kind of an inheritance. So it just the problem is he could have took that made a even a $20,000 movie, and did so much better with it, versus the guy that made it under 10. Is got the sales agent. Got it released, and is going to, is going to get a release in theaters. So it's having it's It's realizing that take your first one, give yourself a budget of 1000 to 3000 because we could all work for a year and save that. Okay, have a script that's simplistic. It may not be your ultimate script, but have it creative. Everybody talks about being creative, but nobody's really creative. They throw money at it. Don't throw money at your problem. Create. Be creative with it. So if you do make a mistake and you screw up on your first one, you will screw up. You will if you make that mistake and you screw up, at least it's not somebody's 100 1000s that they gave you. Or you raised through your family, and you went to all your uncles, and your your your parents and everybody, and then you raised 50 grand, and then you don't get the right or you get a name on the box that's maybe diluted because you didn't know his name was diluted, and you can't sell it because they already got their movie for the year that has that actor in it. You know what I'm saying. So it's, it's having an understanding of the market, what's going on, what's your budget. Keep it simplistic. Be creative, and you might end up with a freaking you might end up with a winner, or you might end up with a dud, but at least you did it, or that experience,

Jake Jalbert 16:15
Or it might take you 20 years. You just don't know. But the biggest hold up, I think, filmmakers have is they think they need, especially new ones that don't know much about it. They think they need millions or or 50,000 like you don't. You just need experience. So go one location, one actor, write a script and just go make a move for 1000 bucks. And people, we get a lot of flack for that. People don't like that. Half the people like it. Half people don't like it. But it is what it is, and it's it's getting those kids that wouldn't know what to do to give them some hope that, oh, I can go make, actually make a film and maybe meet a connection that leads me to this door, to that door. So it's opening doors. Don't sit around and wait for the 50,000 just go make it for 1000 and then eventually that 50,000 will will come knock the money. You'll get the money when it's ready. I feel,

Dave Bullis 16:32
You know, it's also when people look like, I'm sure every filmmaker, in one way or another, wants to emulate, you know, the guy, the people that they they look up to as their heroes. The problem is sometimes, if let's just use Chris for Nolan as an example, you know, if we wanted to emulate him, you know, we couldn't do an inception, because what was that like? 100 million? 100 50 million. But if we looked at following, and I don't know if you guys have ever seen following, it's actually a really cool movie that Christopher Nolan shot, and it didn't cost him a lot of money at all, and it really just and then that's what set him up to make memento, which was what he was trying to make to begin with. But he couldn't make it because he couldn't get the budget. So he made following instead.

Brian Jalbert 17:41
Makes sense. He put his ultimate script on the back burner to get one done and show what he can do. I think that's the key. Show what you can do, like, if you can't. You know, people think if you get money, you're going to make a great film, if you and don't get me wrong, there's people that if you hire the right people in every spot, and you're the director, and you actually don't have the ego, and you're able to listen to what everybody's saying and adjust to the situation. You got the money? Yeah, go ahead, you know what I mean, you'll have people backing you up, and you'll learn a lot doing it. But for us that don't have that, we don't have the connections, we don't have the big bucks, and we weren't able to raise the money. What do you do? Do you sit around? No, you got to get off your ass. You got to go make something, I mean, and that's just what we did. And that's why we talked like that, because we're like, Dude, we made our first movie on three grand, you know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 18:34
Yeah and, you know, I think you also said it too, Bry, or maybe it was you Jake on one of those Facebook chats. You know, you have to, you have to show what you can do for nothing, because anybody can spend money. And that's so true. I mean, that kind of hit me, because I'm saying sit there going, you know what? That's that's the truth. You have to be able to show that you can not only take, you know, maybe your cell phone or a lower grade camera, that maybe is in 4k or whatever, right? But you can make something. But you have to be able to show you you did the hustle or whatever, because you want people to look at that movie and say, Hey, Jake and Brian, how the hell did you guys shoot this movie? And then you tell them, Oh, we did it for, you know, 50 bucks, or 100 bucks or whatever, 1000 bucks, they go, how the hell did you do that for that little amount of money?

Jake Jalbert 19:18
I mean, how, how could you not do it for that kind of money? Like phones are almost like the 4k thing, like, if you have the budget cool, but if you're trying to shoot something super high quality, but you don't know what you're doing, it just turn it just looks really bad, like you have a better chance of using a phone and making it as it's a phone, and shooting something that's really super creative, that's more interesting to me, and something that you could possibly maybe release on Facebook and build a name for yourself. You know that that would work so much better I feel, than trying to polish something when you when it's like it just it won't look right, trying to polish something with something that's not polishable. If that makes any sense,

Dave Bullis 20:09
Yeah, that makes perfect sense, because, just as a food for thought type of experiment, if somebody listening to this, what advice would you give them if they said they wanted to make a movie this weekend, just as, like, a short film, or not even this weekend, but like, you know what I mean, like, actually planning something, you know, would you say, utilize, like the living room that you have right now, your house you live in right now, or, or, and then just, you know, film on your phone, something like that, just to, just to sort of get your, sort of, you know, get your feet under you as a filmmaker, and then just sort of go from and then just see what you made, and then sort of go from there.

Jake Jalbert 20:43
All right, so let's put in perspective, like me and Brian are gonna make a film. What do we have access to right now? We're in my apartment. Okay? We know we have our apartment. We know we have each other. We can work with each other. What cameras do we have? Do we know anybody with cameras? Do we know somebody that can run a camera? If we don't, you know what, let's just have fun and maybe use our phone and actually create something on our phone. We have Brian's daughter here. Maybe she can act in it, you know. So just, you have to just utilize what you have. Don't try to, like, write what you want, because right now, it's not about what you want, it's about what you have, if you don't have a lot. So that's what I would say. What do you think Brian?

Brian Jalbert 21:20
Yeah like, our first movie we did in two locations, and the intro scene was maybe, like five minutes, and then the rest of it was in one location. It was in a house, and it was a slasher, you know, it is what it is. It's it's not perfect, but it's ours, and we made it and we released it ourselves. And, you know, we got a little bit of a name talent on it, and we had fun with it, and we learned a lot. So I suggest that, yeah, look what you got. What do you have access to be creative and and have some fun with it. You know,

Jake Jalbert 21:54
I would focus on more what you have around and then what you because most people focus like, I don't have a camera, or I just don't have this, or I don't have that, like you have a phone, because you're obviously watching our lives, or you're watching stuff on a phone. So a phone's good enough. I mean, just maybe spend the money on a good, good sound, yeah? Because I think that's key, yeah, good sound. And maybe phone quality would look it would be interesting if you can come up with something clever. I can't tell people what to come up with, but coming up with something cool, could you could do some damage with something like that, I think, because that's where it is now, it's all phone and people are going live. So, you know, we might do something like that. You know, eventually, someone better do it soon, because it's the new it is what it is, what it is right now. So to capitalize on doing someone maybe Snapchatting all day would be cool. I would more or less watch that than trying to watch a drama or something like that. Would be that is the thing. It already has a it has a marketed fan base. Has a marketability, marketable. You can say this is my snapchat movie. I'd be like, Oh, let me check that. Seems that's different. So I would think outside the box if you really want to make something that's going to leave an impression, if you just want to go make something, just go make it. But yeah,

Dave Bullis 23:07
Did you guys see the that movie? It was like a well, it was a short film where it took place all within a person texting her friends. It was just basically the actual they screen capped her phone, and the whole entire movie was, was literally, you just saw her the screen there her phone as she was texting people back and forth.

Brian Jalbert 23:28
I did not see that. I'd love to see that. Great. That's awesome idea.

Jake Jalbert 23:32
That's what it that's what it is. You know, that's what it is. Like we, we wanted to make something, and we came up with, what do we have? We don't have a c1, 100. And we want to do this show, a TV show, you know, called haunted tours, that we're putting out, actually, next year, next month, um, and we kept it very simple, you know, very simple. It's very dark, very real. It's just us. It didn't take a bunch of money. Yeah, we go in there and we investigate low locations. Now we're not the investigators. We got other people on board for that. We and we were able to shoot five episodes. You know what I mean? So it's, it's just creating. I mean, that's the biggest thing. Once you create, you'll get better, and you'll learn from it, and you'll make mistakes, and then you can create again, and you keep creating, and before you know it. I mean, you're, you're doing it, and you didn't pay, did we? If we, if we didn't go live on Monday, you would have never seen us, and you would have never, you know, we might have not been on your podcast, you know. And for us, this could lead us somewhere. This could lead us somewhere good. Or you just don't know, you know, you just got to, just got to do it. I would say, Just do it.

Dave Bullis 24:35
Yeah, you never know where, what door you open, and where it's going to lead into. You know. And I found that out too, because even starting this podcast, for instance, has led to so many doors being opened that I wouldn't even have thought about, you know, when I started this, what, three years ago, or whatever the hell it's been, but, I mean, it's just been a lot of interesting stuff happening and again, you know, I mean, even when I've done like, my stuff around the area. This Philly area, just doing things, you sort of become, I don't want to use that word, an attraction, but you know what I mean? It's kind of like that book The Secret where you kind of, like, attract things, you know what I mean, where it's like people see, actually doing stuff, and all of a sudden they go, oh, I want to talk to that person, because it's they're not just talking about it, they're actually doing it. And I remember, I forget who it was, who gave me this advice when I started years ago. But he said that there, if you actually make something, you're not normal. Normal is sitting on your couch talking about making something

Brian Jalbert 25:33
That's so true. Man, stealing, bro, yeah.

Dave Bullis 25:42
And so again, I love that advice, by the way. You know, just finding out what you have, instead of thinking about the negative, which is what you don't have, you think about the positive, which is what you do have, and you do have access to. And sometimes when people start brainstorming things like that, they start getting bigger ideas. You know what I mean? They start thinking, oh, you know what, I forgot I had access to this. Or, hey, you know what, we can go down to the park and shoot this scene, because it's a public park, and, you know, we can go off to the side there, and, you know, stuff like that, where, you know, you start, you start actually working as stuff starts flowing a little better.

Brian Jalbert 26:16
Yeah. I mean, you get so much, the thing is, like we said earlier, building your skills, because you get so much knowledge of how is and then, and then, one thing to do, too, is, you know, go on a couple sets that are local that, you know, got some name talent on, and learn, watch how they operate, you know. And then you can help operate your set, like that, you know. So, I mean, that's, that's ultimately too, just just watching, learning,

Jake Jalbert 26:36
Getting in the it's getting in the mix. You know, when we do those lives, we get in the mix. It's like we're, we're we're online, networking with other filmmakers, sharing our advice, hoping to get other advice back. Because we're always learning. The key is always learn. We we like to mix filmmaking with business, because it is ultimately a business, and if you don't understand that, that part of it, you have to either get somebody who understands it, or, I think you'll be doomed unless you're super creative, that someone just grabs you up. I think nowadays you need to know the whole aspect of it. You need to know business, sales, marketing, it's all relevant. Now you need to know it.

Brian Jalbert 27:14
Because the biggest thing too, if you look at it, like when Rob Rodriguez made it, and in Quentin Tarantino, it was a different error, like it was a different time, you know what I mean. So now it's a different time. So who's going to be those guys that break out through a new technology or a new way? And they're they're reinventing, not reinventing the wheel, but because, if you look at it, everything that we're doing, like right now, this is like radio. You know, when we're on Facebook Live, that's like TV, but it's just a different way of bringing it to an audience. You know what I'm saying? So I think that's the biggest thing is, is finding out how to do it and take capitalize on it and see what happens. That's that's all we try to do.

Dave Bullis 27:55
Yeah, you know, that's a good point, by the way, because I mentioned that too before in past episodes. You know, you had the 90s, and you have Tarantino and Smith and Rodriguez, they all came up, and they sort of became the new celebrity director, replacing the ones in the 80s, like your carpenter and, you know, and you have all those directors. They have the 70s directors like Spielberg but and Scorsese. But what happens is, with today, you don't really see that celebrity director anymore. You don't really see that. And you kind of look at to see who, what people are really making films from our young, from the next generation, the next generation. You see like, okay, Damien Chas a James Wan, you know, you have guys like that, but you're like, but they don't really, they're not really that celebrity director type where people would notice them, unless they're in the business like us, who would notice, you know, who would say, oh, that's, that's, that's them, you know, you know, you know what I mean. And that's why I kind of think that if you look towards like, what YouTube is doing, if you look at the top YouTubers, I mean, you've got, like, PewDiePie, you've got, you know, like, what's that other guy's name, Logan Paul, you got all those guys, and they're just doing like, like skit stuff. And I'm always wondering if you had somebody like that who actually made short films or something like that, who was actually a celebrity of that level on a particular social media channel they could capitalize on it and have almost 100% of the marketplace.

Brian Jalbert 29:16
Yeah, I agree so much too. Like nowadays, they don't want to be celebrities or stars. They want to be beauty. It's like, you know who I'm surprised, who's never, I don't think I've ever seen him do a feature, is Ryan Film Riot. Film Riot. I think he has, like, one biggest chances are a good audience of people to actually make something really cool, like a feature, and actually get some bugs behind it.

Dave Bullis 29:45
Yeah, I know Ryan coo from no film school. He's been making his for a while, but yeah, I know a lot of these, these websites and stuff. You kind of wonder why they don't have somebody try to capitalize on that.

Brian Jalbert 30:05
Yeah, I don't know. Man, I don't know. But I agree with you 100% man, I think, I think somebody, you know, somebody's got to be that breakout. And you know, the new way of doing it. I think it's experimenting.

Jake Jalbert 30:18
Yeah, I think most of the filmmakers get caught up in the old ways, like we were just talking about. So if you hone in, you capitalize on what is now, which is social media, I think you will win,

Dave Bullis 30:31
Yeah, and also, too, with social media, that's how you pre, you know, pre sell your crowdfunding campaign. That's how you get you meet other filmmakers, you network. Because I always tell people, and I didn't even ask if you guys went to film school, but, I mean, that's what I tell people, because I've actually worked at a college, and I've actually, you know, I've graduated from college too, and it's just like, you know, nowadays, I would just if I was graduated from high school, I wouldn't even bother with it. I would learn on Udemy and network wherever I need to go to meetup.com Look at meetups in my area. I'd go on to Twitter or LinkedIn. You know, I go to YouTube. I mean, you know what I mean? It's so many avenues. And I'm like, why would you spend $200,000 to go to college? I mean, you know what I mean? It just, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Brian Jalbert 31:17
No, no. I mean, to be honest with you, we're both high school dropouts, man, I dropped out at 15. I'm just, I just never liked, I guess you could say I'm just kind of a rebel dude. I just never liked system. I've always kind of liked to go my own way. And I think that's what filmmakers are missing nowadays too, is go your own way, like, Don't I know everybody wants to go to the theater and you want to get a distribution deal with Sony and all this shit. Well, what's the, how can we capitalize on what's going on? They'll come, you know, they'll come knocking at you when you got something hot. So if you can make it hot yourself, like, that's, that's, ultimately, that's all it is. You know, like people you want to, if you get a name talent in your movie, like Tom Cruise, you're just helping out with less marketing in the back end, you know what I mean. So do a movie, if you're going to get a budget, you do a movie. Say you do one on 20 grand, shoot it on 10, and then use the other 10 for marketing and use it and get it in a genre that sells without name talent. You know what I mean. So I think it's being creative and trying different things, you know,

Dave Bullis 32:24
Yeah, yeah. And, you know what, the whole the idea of college true, just to go back to that real quick, you know, is, it's about education, like we said, about learning skills. You even mentioned you could go on to other crews and stuff like that, other other sets in the area, and learn, you know, these same skills, rather than, you know, paying money. I mean, I had a friend of mine. He actually went to NYU, I think it was or NY film school, and he actually ended up the senior thesis project, and this is where he dropped out. And said, you know, what the hell is the point of this? He actually said, they the top, like five projects were chosen, and then you had to work on that person's project. And he said, so I'm going to be paying like, you know, a couple $1,000 to sit here and hold a boom pole for somebody else. Like, what the hell is this?

Brian Jalbert 33:09
That's crazy. You're better off taking, you know, like we said, Make, take 1000 to 3000 F film school and go make a feature.

Jake Jalbert 33:19
That's your film school was a business. They want your money.

Brian Jalbert 33:23
University is just a business in general. I feel, to be honest with you, I feel like all school in general, unless it's to be like a doctor or a lawyer and things like that, it's all there in place as a business, you know. And I understand it, you know, some people learn that way, but me, personally, I don't learn like that. Like I like to get my hands dirty. I like to get in there. You know, Jake's the same way we learn by doing not so much like reading a book, you know. You know, maybe that's because we're dropouts and we're not very smart. You know, we learn a different way. You know what I'm saying?

Jake Jalbert 33:55
I mean, we learn that. We learn a lot more now than we we ever have. You know, we went to the 10x growth con early this year, we went to we went to the AFM. So we're always getting knowledge and in trying to find different mentors and things like that, and that's key is finding people who have already done it and walk those that path,

Brian Jalbert 34:18
And then at the same time, too, maybe we don't have to follow their path, because I think in filmmaking, it's one of those things where, if you talk to everybody that's made it, there's usually, like, they just, it's a different path for the most part. Like, you know, they knew a friend of a friend, and then they did something, and they directed it, and then it got picked up, or, you know, they had a script, and then, like, like, in, in Quentin's case, he had a friend that knew Harvey Keitel, and they liked the script. And he was a writer at first. And so, I mean, I think everybody's story is going to be different, but it's finding your story, like, how are you going to make it? And only way you know, the only way you know that story, is by just going on. That journey and figuring it out as you go. I feel, you know, look at what other people have done, take it in for yourself, adjust with it, and see how it can work for you. Because nobody can tell you how to do something, because you're going to have your own ways of thinking. I feel, you know,

Dave Bullis 35:16
Yeah, absolutely, hey, and you mentioned growth con, by the way. So I wanted to ask you about your impressions of growth, of the tax growth con, actually. And a side note, I'm actually talking to Grant Cardone to have him come on this podcast. So it's kind of interesting. We tie this in, but so you guys went through the tax conference earlier this year. So So what were some of your impressions you took away from it?

Brian Jalbert 35:40
I mean, I loved it. I mean, the biggest thing I learned was these guys that make it successfully, they just do it, and they believed in themselves enough, and they took some risk and calculated risk, and they just went for it. And sometimes you failed, but it was not so much of a failure as it is, of a learning curve or, or that, hey, that didn't work, but that worked in it. So let me try that with this, you know. So, I mean, that's one of the biggest things we learned, and that I learned. And one good thing is, too, is networking, man. I mean, we met a really good connection. One of the speakers there, that's, that was the only guy that was the TV guy. We met there because we just went and took a picture with him, talk to him. And now we've got a direct access to television. So it's just, it's just doing, being, being present, you know.

Jake Jalbert 36:32
And we put a lot on the line. We spent a lot of money. So I would say, you know, we just went invested in ourself, same with AFM, we spent a lot of money, you know, that's the only way.

Dave Bullis 36:47
And and also AFM. What was your impression of that? Because I know you mentioned Jason Brubaker. He's a mutual friend of both of ours. You know, he's actually been on the podcast before as well, but I know he usually goes to AFM. So what were some of your impressions from this year's AFM?

Brian Jalbert 37:04
Um, you know, I like the AFM. It's the old way of doing things to where you, you know, you're meeting with fires and you're meeting with filmmakers and things like that. And I think it's great for networking. You know, I met like 50 connections while I was there, I met a lot of buyers. We didn't do any deal. We'd ended up not not doing a deal with, with some of our stuff. But the point of it was, was, was getting our feet wet within where we ultimately want to be, and that's as a distributor in studio to you know, be able to produce, be able to distribute and be able to get something out there to buyers, or whether it's self distribution in whatever way. But I love the AFM man, learn a lot.

Jake Jalbert 37:51
And I would say FSA, if you're not willing to take risks, big risk, then it's gonna be super hard for you. Like, we took a big we took a big risk. We went as actually, we didn't go as attendees, we went as exhibitors. So we had, like a booth, and we had about, like six or eight movies that we took with us, and just, yeah, just did it.

Dave Bullis 38:12
So, like, what were some of the did you get a lot of feedback on those movies?

Jake Jalbert 38:16
Yeah, we realize what is good, what people want. I mean, you. So you spend years on this movie. You love this movie. You You just, this is your baby, right? And you, you're like, hey, all right, I'm gonna show you this trailer, and you don't tell them. You, they don't know you made it. You're just like, All right, here it goes. They're like, No, no, no, no, no. Like that. So it's like, it's not about how good you think your movie is.

Brian Jalbert 38:40
It's like, is there a market for it? If there are people going to buy it, are they going to pick it up? You know, it's, it's freaking it's, it's very eye opening in the way of you are not going to know exactly what that's that's why a distributor doesn't know what's going to work. That's why they pick up so many movies. Because why you don't realize

Jake Jalbert 39:01
Giving MGS unless there's, yeah, they don't, but Reynolds on it, or somebody big,

Brian Jalbert 39:05
They don't know what's going to hit. And that's why you know when that when a buyer walks in, and that's the biggest thing too. It's having relationships with the buyers already built. You know what I mean? So if you don't have these relationships with the buyers, you're walking in kind of cold, because now they're just looking at your product, and they really don't give a shit about you. It's more about the product. Anyways, if you have that warmth within they already know you you can do some deals. You know what I mean? So it was ours, more of a bus just jumping in head first and seeing what we find. And you know, there's no right way I feel like to do things. You just got to do what works for you, and that's what we did. And learned a lot. Jason. Jason was really cool. Got to meet him. Tom Malloy, who was kind of a, I feel like a mentor to me because I read his book. Years ago, bankrolled, which was really good, and duh, and dove, I got to meet dove Simmons. So that was three, three mentors that before we, you know, before we were doing it full time, to where we actually got to meet these guys, and you're respected because you're going in as a distributor. You're going in as an exhibitor.

Jake Jalbert 40:22
No, you put, they know, you spent money. Oh, yeah, you, you, you walk in and just try to get a free pass. It's like, Get out of here, dude. Like, you didn't put, you didn't put no money. I mean, one time, like, get out of here. You spent big money to be there. Like, okay, people take you more serious, and that's the key. Like, go all in and show people, like, I'm serious, even if it's putting up money, even if it's putting in like, tons of free time. You know, that's what I did when I first started doing video. I did a lot of cheap stuff, a lot of free stuff. I'll still do free stuff. And that's what it's about. It's about getting and doing and being out there.

Brian Jalbert 40:55
What's that's the big thing too, is what's the Win? Win? Like finding the Win Win within a situation, like, how can this person get what they want and we get what we want, and we all work together?

Jake Jalbert 41:06
Yeah, the win wins in life, right? The win wins in life.

Brian Jalbert 41:10
Everybody's trying to take a lot of times too. It's like, no, let's just, let's How can we both win? You know?

Dave Bullis 41:15
Yeah, no, I'm sorry did I just cut you off, Jake.

Jake Jalbert 41:19
No, no, you're good. Now you're good. Now you're fine. We'll see if you had any anything else to add to that.

Dave Bullis 41:25
No, I know what you mean. Because sometimes, when, especially when, even when I do this, like podcast, sometimes I talk to people and they want to pitch to come on the podcast, and it's almost like, well, what can I do for them? And I'm like, Well, I mean, come on here. They don't even know my name, then my name's in the freaking title of the podcast. Like, how the hell do you not know my name is Dave? You know what I mean? And it's like, they'll write, they won't even say like, Hey or Hello, or even though, they'll just say like, Yo, I'm the Bella blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, You didn't even say like, Hey, I enjoy the show. Or, Hey, Dave, this is why I want to come on. It's just like, just, let me bombard you with how cool I am day and so that I will be like, Oh, please, come on. Please, Jesus, come on. I mean, it's just, you know what I mean, it's just like, you have to be a lot more, you know what I mean. Like, look, you just said the win win. Because, I mean, you this is a win win. This podcast. Because you get something, I get something, we both win, and the listeners win too. So, you know, it's that this whole one sided thing where it's like, what's in it for me? And, you know, it doesn't matter if you get something, you know what I mean?

Brian Jalbert 42:28
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree, dude, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, both work together. It's just working together, man. It's just, ultimately, what it's always been about and will be about IPO,i feel

Dave Bullis 42:41
Yeah, especially because, I mean, this is networking. You know, people hear you on the podcast. They reach out. It happens all the time. And I always encourage people when, when listeners want to talk to a specific guest, tweet them and tell them something about the episode, send them an email. Some people give out their emails. Send them a LinkedIn message, or whatever the hell, Facebook, whatever, you know, social media channels they're on, and just say, hey, you know, I enjoyed the podcast, and here's why, here's what I got from it, not just like, you know, hey, hey, listen. Can Can you give me this or that I had on Cassian Elvis, or it was, I always butcher his name, but I who is one of the top producers in the world. He's done Dallas Buyers Club. He just did mud bound, which is a, you know, up for a ton of awards, and it's on Netflix. And when I had him on, people were asking, like, Hey, could you, could you, like, introduce us to Cassian? I'm like, I don't even know who the hell you are. So how would I, how would I possibly do this?

Brian Jalbert 43:37
You know, it's funny, because we get that all the time where people are just like, hey, can you do this? Could you do that? It's like, hold on a second. First of all, the first thing you got to learn when you're pitching somebody is, you got to get to know them for a little second. You got to have an understanding of who they are. There's no reason for somebody else to give up their time unless you find out what the person's looking for, you know, you know.

Jake Jalbert 44:02
And this is why we share a lot of things about, about business and sales, because that is sales. A good book recommendation for that is how to win friends and influence people. It's about, you know, focus on what you know, who the person is, and don't try to take so much. It's that's all it is.

Brian Jalbert 44:23
It's like this too. Like, you know you're, you're hanging out, you meet this girl, and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is like, Hey, will you go home and sleep with me? You know what I'm saying? Like, it just that's not how it works. You know what I'm saying? You've got to, you got to build a little bit of a relationship.

Jake Jalbert 44:39
Every big connection that we've made, and that worked out good. We took years building slowly, you know, and it's always, what can I do for you? How can I help you? And from there, it led to, you know, different things, and we're still building relationships. And you need to ask that you. To ask them what you can do for them.

Dave Bullis 45:04
That's what I believe. Yeah, it's like I always say, when you're going to make a connection, offer value, kill with kindness and always be professional. And that first one is offer value, which is what can you do for them? And whether it's promotion on social media, like just retweeting something, you know what I mean, or even something similar, like buying, you know, saying, hey, look their movies coming out. You know, maybe I'll pick up a copy of it, or, you know, maybe I'll buy a shirt, or, again, a retweet. Cost nothing, right? So it's stuff like that. You know, you're actually building rapport with that person. And when you're doing in, you know, face to face meetings, like a networking event, that's the first thing you want to do is you want to do, is you want to say you talk about their stuff if you're introduced, you know what I mean, especially if you're going to ask that person for something. And when I see people just go up and it's like, hey, you know you're Hey, it's the gelbert brothers. Hey guys, listen, I'm gonna be making a movie soon. And you know, why don't you guys come on board and this and that? You're like, Well, wait a minute, we don't know who the hell you are. You know what I mean, or asking you for locations, or whatever.

Brian Jalbert 46:04
And then they go, and then you go, Well, what are you fully funded? They're like, Well, no, that's why we came to you. And it's like, dude, yeah. But first of all, give us a win, win. If you want us to produce your movie, you know, show the cash. Say, Hey, I've got 50 grand. I want to work with you guys on a movie. Would you produce it? Then you might have some, some, some wiggle room, or something, something to work with. We can go, Well, what are you trying to do? And maybe we can help you out. Because, you know, it's 50,000 you know, it depends on your script. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 46:32
Yeah, yeah. And that's also happened to me too, by the way, is the whole, hey, we want to get this funded. And I go, okay, you know, well that there has to be something in it for me now, because if I'm going to go and pitch your movie and look for funds and all this other stuff, you know, what's the deal here? And you know? And the cherry on top of this is the fact that I'll tell you a little story. Is one time I actually had a person come on who actually know we met years ago, and he wanted to come on the podcast talk about his latest project, and then wanted me to come on board as a producer and give him my email list and do all this other stuff. And when I when I said, well, well, what is my what's the contract for this? And he actually said to me, you wouldn't, you would want to get paid for that? I'm like, Yeah, I would have something involved in this. I don't want this isn't a charity case. Yeah, man, I agree 100% with you. Man, what was, as we talk about sort of this crazy stories and stuff, what were some of the crazy stories you guys have about just being pitched?

Brian Jalbert 47:33
You know, I haven't had anything too crazy pitched wise. I mean, I've had people, you know, that pitch you, but it's just the way they go about it is just totally off. One of the ways that I pitched, and that's worked the Burt Reynolds movie that I was able to be a part of as a first ADM producer, like that connection took me two years before I was able to work with that person. And it was more or less of those little things that you do in the beginning,

Jake Jalbert 48:00
Slow baby steps. I'd rather tell them, you know, what they I think, you know, work for us, than tell them what, what not to do. So yeah, IPA on a set, and they, you get a call sheet. And, you know, I had bigger dreams of doing bigger things. So I took the call sheet, because there's big producers and stuff on there, and I held on to that call sheet and found out who the producers were, and just, you know, let my presence be known. Cool, cool movie. You did a great job. Everything was awesome. Was nice meeting you. That was it. I think, like, a year later, we end up going to the premiere of the movie and saying, Oh, hey, you know, I'm Jake, and this is Brian. Great movie. You did a great job on this. And then another, you know, six months go by, and hey, can you check, you know, take a look at my trailer. I just need some expert advice. You did a great job on your last film. It's just a minute, and then, boom, they give you some advice, and it's just slowly building over time, you know. And show them that you, in the meantime, actually do projects, but still keep, you know, it's, it's, it's doing the projects and keep moving forward, but slowly, you know, every now and then reach out and say, Hi, how you been and stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that, but to just come off with the ass right away. It's not gonna, I don't think it'll work unless you're, you've already got, you know, unless you're somebody,

Dave Bullis 49:21
It's like, Gary V says you got to do the it's Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. And those jabs are give, give, give, and the right hooks and ask,

Brian Jalbert 49:30
That's the new schooling, man. I learned everything from just watching videos like that, like, we love guys like that, just, I mean, because it's like, you know, I never liked reading so much, and I've read books, and it's funny, I've read more books when I was out of school than what I did when I was in school. And now I love like, I love podcasts, I love videos grant and all these guys like because there's something that they're doing. That led to their success. And if you can, if you can read between the lines, you know, and not so much what they're saying, but what are they doing, and then read between the lines of what they're saying, like, you can really become successful by following those guides. As far as, like, those guys are your mentors. Now, you know,

Dave Bullis 50:31
Yeah, mentors through books and mentors through podcasts, mentors through videos. You know, it's a wide, wide world now, right?

Brian Jalbert 50:38
Yep, I love it, man, it. And that's what's great about it, because I got people hitting me up from like, Nigeria and shit. Like, that's crazy to even think of. Like, we had these guys, you know, because we're pretty we're down to earth guys, and we had these guys call us from Nigeria, FaceTime us. And they're like, I'm like, holy like, Hey, what's up, man? They're like, Oh, we're from Nigeria. I'm like, holy shit. And we're talking a little bit, and they're, they were just calling to just because, I think they were just wanted, they seen our lives, and they were, they wanted, you know, they want to talk to us on FaceTime. And it's like, you know, it's almost like, get to the point, because they're just like, Oh, how's filming? And then it's like, well, you know, you calling about something, you just call it a chat. Yeah, it's finding out. But, I mean, it's just so cool that we can have people in all these different countries that we're talking to, like, just from our live video, we have a guy Anthony, who will probably listen to this, our buddy Anthony, who we met through Facebook Live, and he lives in Australia, and he's doing movies out there, and he loves the content. And we, we go back and forth, and his buddies were in at the AFM, and we were hanging out with his buddies. We have a video, one of our live videos, they're from Australia, and it's like, wow. Like, that's to me, that's awesome, and that's just like, so different.

Jake Jalbert 52:00
You know, we never had to leave the house to network, you know. So we, when we went to the AFM, we got noticed about five or a handful of people that seen our lives, because the fewer filmmakers, a big, big group,

Brian Jalbert 52:13
And people actually coming in our booth, like, Hey, where's the Jalbert brothers? And we're like, we don't even know him. And it's cool to be able to have that already established relationship, in a way, to where they feel like they know us, and it's like, oh, that's so cool, you know what I mean?

Jake Jalbert 52:29
And that's where the new future of everything is going. You don't have to go out and network and fly around. You can actually just do it over online, which is so great, you know. And that's what all these these these guys are teaching and actually doing. You know,

Dave Bullis 52:45
You know, when you mentioned that the Nigerians who called you, it reminds me, because sometimes when I used to get people coming up to me, no, no, they didn't call me. They those Nigerians that contact me are usually those princes who want money, that I just sent them money. But, but what people usually contact me? They usually want to just go grab coffee somewhere. And about a year or two ago, I actually just fully stopped it. So if I don't know you and you want to you say, Hey, Dave, can we go grab coffee? The answer is, 99.9% of time going to be no The reason being, it really becomes like, what can I do for them? And I understand that, you know, I, you know, I've, you know, I do this podcast, and I've done some really cool things. I've worked with M Night, Sham lines producer, you know, I did, I did my own TV pilot. I've done this, that and the other thing. But like, at the end of the day, though, it's like, I get it, trust me too. You feel like you have so many options. You get overwhelmed sometimes. But whenever I go to those things, it always becomes, it always feels like, what can I do for them? And it's always like they want to pick my brain about stuff. And then they go to this and that, and they get all downtrodden. And I go, I, you know, I just don't this is why I always have to have screeners of people. You know what I mean? Like I have to be if you come recommended, or something else, I'll talk to you on the phone. But the whole coffee thing in general, I'm like, I'm not traveling 30 minutes, you know, up to Philly, up to your north, or whatever, Philly, just to grab coffee with somebody. You know what I mean? I'd rather just do a Skype chat for five minutes. You know what I mean,

Jake Jalbert 54:16
Right! And they don't, and they don't know, you know, they they're like, they're in the weeds. They don't see it. So it's good that that people actually listen to this stuff and trying to get the knowledge to to become better. And that's why we try to preach a lot of this different stuff in marketing and sales and and really trying to expand filmmaking and show people like you got to open your eyes a little bit further than just filmmaking, because that's where the win, I believe, is, is, you know, being able to communicate, period, communication,

Brian Jalbert 54:46
Because, dude, like, I've made these mistakes, like, I've went up to people straight for the ass. Like, in its learning by, like, going, Yeah, that that didn't work out good. You know, in dissected, why did that work out? Good? Oh, you know. Because I'm too blunt. I came off that way. So you got to have an understanding of that. I think that's how we try to talk. To talk is like, Hey, this is what we've done. This is what we've learned. Hopefully it works for you. Some of it may not, some of it may. And, you know, have at it. Like, let's work together. Let's, let's make some, some fucking magic. Like, let's really make some magic to where the new generation has their voice, you know, and they do through Facebook and like podcasts and all this shit.

Jake Jalbert 55:29
So I would say a good way to just approach anybody, approach yourself, I'm sure approach us is just like, Hey, I heard your podcast. Awesome, man. The advice was absolutely amazing. If you thought it was amazing, um, you know, thank you for that. And that's it. And leave it, you know, leave it at that, at least for, you know, a couple weeks or whatever. Let it, let it marinate. Follow them. Find out what their interest and what they like and what's the win for them.

Brian Jalbert 55:54
Yeah, follow up is key, too. So if you do reach out to somebody, you know, don't be scourge. If they don't get back to you right away, like I've, I've been contacting this one producer over and over again, you know, every couple of months. Just build that connection. And I think that's key is just stay it, stay present. And when it works out, it will eventually, if you stay present enough, because most people want to see if you're willing to put in the work. I feel because, you know, they had to put in the work. You know, they're not just going to give you their whole email list or their whole world because you're asking for it. It's like, Well, dude, like I've spent like eight years of my life building this, like I can't just give you my the keys to my kingdom or to my building. Like I got to get to know you a little bit, trust you. Maybe we work together a little bit. And then now, yeah, this guy's cool. I can trust him with my keys. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 56:46
Yeah, I see exactly what you mean. And you know, it's all about, you know, building those relationships. And also, you know, building them, you know, just building the relationships, period, you know what I mean. And just, you want to, want to sort of build it in the right way, and and again. I mean, we I think I've done the same thing too. I've been there where I've just asked way too early, and because you jump the gun, you're like, Oh crap, I'm never gonna see this person again. What should I say? I don't know. Read my screenplay. You're gonna go shit, you know. And so if everyone listening, if you took any advice from from either Jake, Brian or myself, please, just, you know, tweet us and let us know. And And guys, we've been talking for about 55 minutes or so now. So just in closing, is there any anything you want to say Brian and Jake to sort of put up here at this end of this whole conversation,

Jake Jalbert 57:40
Go make something. Just make your fifth, make it. No, just, man, what we're doing, man, trial and error, dude. We, you know, we go do something and and, you know, you could call it a fail. You can call it we, you know, we tried, and then you try something else. You know, we're gonna put out this haunted tour show. Will it be a super success? I don't know. We're gonna do our best, right? We're gonna put everything we have into it and make it happen. If it doesn't do very well, fine. Figure this out. We'll figure that out. So the key is just doing figuring it out along the way, and it'll lead you to the places you probably didn't expect you might be. I never, you know, could never speak in front of people and, you know, but more you do it, it's weird. The more you do it, the better you get at it. And I've gotten a lot better. Actually, I can go in front of a crowd now, and actually, you know, speak, I still turn super red. I'm red right now. It's just like, you know, speaking. But you become better as you do. So that's why just make your first film. If you're first time filmmaker, just go make something and then reach out to us and say, Hey guys, I heard your podcast. Great job. And then, you know, build that connection with us, because we want to get to know you guys and send us your film if you have it, and don't go to straight to this end, though, you know, talk to us a little thing and get to know me. And then I would love to look at your stuff, you know, but don't just send it, because I don't know you, and that's weird, and I don't know what I'm looking at.

Brian Jalbert 59:05
So unless, unless you're asked to send it, you know, there's, there's times where we put out calls for scripts or whatever we're looking for on our Facebook page and things like that. So that's when you want to send it. It's knowing when to send it, when they're when, when the Win, win is in place. Hey guys, I'm looking for one location script. Oh, I got one. Oh, really. Okay, send it on over or, Hey guys, I got a movie that's finished. I'd love for you guys to take a look at it. Maybe you can distribute it. Okay, cool. Let me look at it. Take a look at it. Yeah, I love this. Let's distribute it. Hey guys, I got a movie. I've got some money. I want to pay you guys for your time, put you on as producers, and hire you through your production company. Awesome. Let's do it. Maybe we can come on and work out a deal to where we distribute it. So it's finding out what they're looking for, going in for the Ask the right time and and staying present with the follow up.

Dave Bullis 1:00:06
Yeah, you have to treat everything like a skill. And just That's something I've learned too, is you have to treat everything like a skill. You know, speaking in public is a skill. You know, doing all sorts, you know, being good at social media is a skill. All the different skills on the film set. Writings a skill. Pitching is a skill. The more I've learned about this stuff, the more I realized it's all about. If you treat everything like a skill and you have to get good at it, it kind of all sort of falls into place. You know what I mean, like you have to do it to get good at it, and the and you just have to do it, which is, you know, you have to have action, right? Yeah, at the end of the day, everything always involves action, just like a character in a screenplay. Nobody likes a passive protagonist.

Jake Jalbert 1:00:48
No, yeah. It's all about execution. Man, if you execute, if you search hard enough, you'll find what you're looking for. It just you got to search, you know, really, really hard

Brian Jalbert 1:00:57
And keep searching. Because, like Sean Baker, it took him, what, 1520 years. I think he said, Yep, exactly, and he wasn't. So now people think, Oh, the Sean Baker guy made it overnight. Well, dude, you don't know he's been doing it for 15-20 years, but you may end up like Robert Rodriguez, who first feature got some buzz going. You know, you just never know. That's why we say just start doing something and be creative.

Dave Bullis 1:01:24
Yeah, excellent, yeah, that's excellent, guys and and it's always good to keep things like that into perspective, because there is no overnight successes. That's the number one rule. There is no overnight successes.

Brian Jalbert 1:01:34
What are you talking about, man,

Dave Bullis 1:01:39
Guys, where can people find you out online.

Jake Jalbert 1:01:42
We stay on Facebook, at Jalbert Brothers, and Instagram, man, right now we have a YouTube, but we're more you know, Facebook and Instagram definitely follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Jalbert Brothers, yeah.

Brian Jalbert 1:01:55
And then they can check us out at jalbertbrothers.com too. And then it has all the social media sites from there as well.

Dave Bullis 1:02:01
Guys! Jake, Brian, I want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Jake Jalbert 1:02:05
Hey, thank you, Dave. Thanks for having us, brother. Appreciate the time.

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BPS 455: How to Turn a Script Into a Movie Without Hollywood’s Help with Chris Jay

January 22, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every creative career has a turning point — for Chris Jay, it came when his rock band Army of Freshmen hit the wall of a collapsing music industry. Years of touring and chasing label deals ended with the rise of digital downloads and the 2008 financial crash, forcing him to rethink everything. Out of that chaos came a bold new pursuit: filmmaking. With no formal training, Chris and his bandmate Aaron Goldberg set out to write and produce a comedy called The Bet. They weren’t chasing approval from Hollywood — they were determined to make their movie, no matter the odds.

The idea for The Bet came from Chris’s own curiosity about reconnecting with old crushes from school and wondering how those stories might turn out decades later. The script, written entirely from scratch and formatted by hand before they even discovered Final Draft, became a crash course in DIY filmmaking. They didn’t have a studio or a rich backer; instead, they raised funds through family, friends, and a pair of theatre producers from the UK who believed in the project. That resourcefulness defined every part of production — from filming in Ventura, California, to juggling countless roles on set, from catering to prop design.

Chris and his team faced every imaginable indie film obstacle: tight budgets, long hours, and post-production delays that nearly derailed the entire project. Yet through determination, collaboration, and sheer grit, they finished The Bet, securing distribution on iTunes, Amazon, and cable VOD. The film also features one of the final appearances of wrestling legend Roddy Piper — a personal highlight for Chris, who grew up a wrestling fan.

What began as a long shot became proof that independent filmmaking still thrives on passion over privilege. For Chris Jay, The Bet wasn’t just a film — it was a statement of creative survival. It showed that even when the industry turns its back, you can still make something lasting with the right mix of heart, humor, and hustle.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this week's episode, our guest is the front man and founder of The Rock Band army of freshmen. He's an actor and screenwriter his comedy film The bet releases this coming Tuesday, July the 26th 2016 and it'll be available on everywhere we available on, you know, Hulu. It'll be available on Google Play Store, iTunes Store, Xbox, PlayStation, all that good stuff. With guest, Chris Jay. Chris, how are you Sir?

Chris Jay 2:23
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Dave. I'm very, very happy to be here, and I'm going to correct you right out of the gate. I definitely don't star in this. I don't think anybody would want or need that, but I did throw myself in there because I figured if I never make another movie again, I'll probably kick myself in 20 years if I can't show my kid like there's your old man, you know?

Dave Bullis 2:42
Yeah, well, I usually just say star. I mean, usually it's, I don't know what else, because usually saying that I don't know

Chris Jay 2:49
Real loose term, even when I find myself writing press releases for the film, it's like, Wait, who's starring, who's featuring, who's cameo. I mean, that shit is kind of out the window these days. I just think like you said, everybody just says, starring in, you know, it could be, could be the groundskeeper in the background. And like, Yo, he stars in the new Guardians of the Galaxy. You know, it's crazy.

Dave Bullis 3:09
Yeah, you always because, like, for me, I've always sporadically appeared in shows, so I never know what to say. I mean, do you say featured extra? Do you say, You know what? I mean, it's like,

Chris Jay 3:19
How weird is featured extra say, You know what I mean? That just sounds weird, like it's, I don't know, it's so funny all the terms, but you get all those head shots, man, um, I'll tell you, when we were cast in the movie, you'll get a kick out of this. It was a really interesting experience. But you look on the back of these resumes, Dave and some of these people, you don't know who the person is. You've never heard of them, but they've been on the coolest stuff in the world, like, Oh my God, you are on friends, and you're on Seinfeld and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then at the bottom, there's, like, a little note that just says featured extra, you know? It's like, wait a minute, you're like, an extra just showing up for lunch, which is badass, you know what? I mean. But it's crazy that you put this on your resume, you know?

Dave Bullis 3:57
Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, every, every acting thing I've ever done, I have been a featured extra and, like, always sunny, you know, I was in a and again, a pre interview. We're talking about NFL films. I was, I was in an NFL films commercial with some sites. So it's just weird, you know what I mean?

Chris Jay 4:14
So you're like me, like you're a jack of all trades, not really successful at any of them, but god damn it, you're out there doing something, you know,

Dave Bullis 4:20
Exactly you got it. Love it. I love it. So, So, Chris, just to get started, you know, I wanted to ask, you know about your background. I mean, obviously, you know, you're a founder of The Rock Band army freshman. But I wanted to ask, you know, how did you actually transition into, you know, the idea, you know, of getting into of the film industry?

Chris Jay 4:39
On, great question. Dave, so basically, super quick background, I am in the band, army of freshmen, and ever since you've been doing this movie, we've been on a bit of a hiatus. But dude, we've been around for like, over 15 years. I was born and raised in New Jersey, close to you, up in Media, Pennsylvania, where you're at and when I was 17, I left home and I moved by myself to. California to do the rock and roll thing. I mean, there was two things I love in my life. I mean, I always loved music and I always loved movies. Quite frankly, nothing else really interests me, period. I like wrestling, too, and boxing, but that's getting off off topic. But with that said, so I did the music thing. Man and army of freshmen was one of those bands that didn't blow up. We were always opening up for bigger bands, but we'd be like, the first band on the bill, like we'd come and play the Trocadero in Philly or the TLA, right? But we wouldn't be the band on the marquee. We would be the band that you didn't know that played first, right? And it was, it was awesome, man. We got to travel around the world. And, I mean, I put my blood, sweat, tears, heart. I spent my whole 20s and practically early 30s, doing army of freshmen. And right around the time that we were close to finally signing a major label deal in the late 2000s which in the old music industry, was like, you know, that was the goal, right? That was the goal. And dude downloading came, and it came like a violent, terrible, evil wave, and it literally destroyed bands of my size. We were the middle class bands, if that makes sense, you know, like we weren't the big boys, but we weren't the garage bands. We were just those hard working bands criss crossing the United States and Europe in minivans. You know, it was really honorable and noble, and you could make enough to maybe pay the rent and eat, right? But when downloading came and then the end, what the financial collapse in 2008 Dude, it just all went to hell. And you quick, you know, it was really, really ugly for the music business. And with that said, we were very close to signing to a major label, and the ANR guy that was ready to do the deal, literally, the financial collapse hit. They froze all signings for the year, right? So I'm like, Oh, my God, oh my God. What's going on? Literally, 30 days later, I called a check in to see how things are working and see if we could do the deal in January, something I had been working for basically my whole life, right? Dave, and the receptionist says he was fired, and there's nobody else to talk to. He was the only ANR guy that wanted us. So I kind of went through, I don't want to say, a depression, but I really had to take a hard look at my life. And I had always bounced around the idea of writing a screenplay, because I'm a writer like I would pay the bills, kind of doing freelance journalism for local newspapers and stuff, right? So I always wanted to write a film, just because I'm in, I'm in Southern California, right? Dave, like everybody, every waiter has got an idea for a movie, right? And I said it'd be fun to do, not even necessarily to make so I got with my partner in the band, Aaron Goldberg, who co wrote the screenplay with me, and I got in touch with a producer friend by the name of Reza riazi, who had produced one of our videos. And this is kind of like the key link here to the story. Reza kind of guided us along, so we were first time screenwriters, right? But he helped us. He kind of gave us just the, you know, just kind of the focus of what we're trying to do and trying to get across. And he kind of guided the screenplay, and we worked on it off and on for a while. We didn't sit down for like two weeks, Sylvester Stallone style, and Cram Out Rocky, you know, it was a work in progress here and there. We got to the point where we thought it was pretty good, and Reza thought the same thing, and we made the decision that I spent my whole life doing music, going in front of a Andr guys, you know, begging to get signed or get this or kiss butt, and giving demo tapes that I said, You know what? If we're going to do this movie, let's just do it right, like, no matter how much money we get, if we get $10,000 and we've got to turn it into a short film and shoot it in my garage on an iPhone, let's do it. Let's just not have anybody tell us we can't do this. I didn't want to be begging for people to read a screenplay, because think of that Dave, who the hell is going to read a raunchy comedy screenplay first time screenwriters. Oh, and they were in a rock band. I mean, that just sounds awful, like I wouldn't want to read that if that was the background and you gave it to me. So I kind of knew going in that we were going to have to do it on our own. And we set out at that point to let's make this movie. You know, Reza agreed to produce it, and he had produced some indie films before. So the good news is we had somebody helping us, and that's the key thing. I don't want you to think that we were just two guys from a band that just did all this. We had somebody guiding us, but there was no money. He just hopped on because I think at that point he had given us so much advice, he had taken a little sabbatical, because he had a film that really got taken from him and turned upside down, and he kind of moved into stand up. And I think this was an opportunity to like, Hey, maybe I can get back in the game a little bit, and let's find a young, hungry director. And that's basically the Genesis. I know that's a lot of backstory, but I think it's important to know, because we didn't come from movies at all. The closest we had to that was, I mean, I was an extra in one or two movies, a featured extra, right? And then also making our music videos. But that was it, man. I mean, we as screenwriters, went into this blind we just had that determination from the indie music world that we weren't gonna we were gonna do it, you know what? I mean, we came from a very DIY music background, and I think we sort of took the. His ethics, and put it into the film. So that's how we got to the point of, yes, we're making a movie, and there's a long backstory, and I'm sorry for that Dave.

Dave Bullis 10:20
Chris, everyone always likes to talk, and they talk a little more on my podcast what I'm trying to say. So please, you said you might ramble. Sometimes it's encouraged on this podcast.

Chris Jay 10:32
Well, you cut me off at any time. It's skinny, especially if you and I start talking cheese steaks. I mean, it's done. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 10:39
I completely understand, by the way. Speaking of cheesesteaks, what is your favorite cheesesteak place?

Chris Jay 10:44
I know this is sacrilege. Keep in mind, I didn't come from Philly. I came from Jersey, so I had to drive into the city. But pound for pound, I always like gyms on South Street.

Dave Bullis 10:52
Oh, Jim's is great. It's my second favorite place. What's your favorite my favorite place is John's roast pork.

Chris Jay 10:59
Oh, I've heard of that place. I've heard of that place. Is it that sensational?

Dave Bullis 11:04
Yeah, cuz it's different than all the other cheesesteak places. Once you have it, you really you understand what a cheesesteak is supposed to be.

Chris Jay 11:10
Next time I'm out there, you and I are going there. That's good. Just put it on the calendar.

Dave Bullis 11:15
Let's do it, man. It's right by the ECW arena, too. So you talk right there on a ship, Swanson and Redner. Right by Swanson. Oh, so you talk wrestling too, Dave. I'm impressed. Yeah, I could talk all day about professional wrestling before I got into film, I used to be a huge pro wrestling buff. Quick little mini, mini background. I don't want to talk too much about myself, but many, many background. Out of high school, I went right into, into pro wrestling school. I ended up working with King Kong Bundy and his promotion, and that was a whole, that was a whole adventure I could talk about hours about.

Chris Jay 11:45
So now, okay, we're getting we're veering far off track, but really quickly we'll circle this all around, because obviously there's wrestlers in my movie, so that's like, kind of like a connection. But um, did you ever get to have an indie match? Did you ever get to actually have a pro wrestling match?

Dave Bullis 12:00
I had one actual match, and that was really, where was it that it was in, I think was either Springfield or Exton Springfield or Drexel Hill. I meant it was a 20 man battle royal. It was all of the rookies of the school we were at. And that was my one and only professional wrestling match, because after that, I just wanted to get out of it, because I had to go to college, and my love affair wrestling was really, like, really burning out. And then basically, I still, if that's right around the time I ended up helping King Kong Bundy. So I had that match, sort of like, and I still had tons of contacts, and they were like, Oh, I hope you're not gonna leave. And I said, Yeah. I said, you know, I'm not six foot four, I'm five foot nine. You know what? I mean, I I'm a ginger who's gonna cheer a five foot nine ginger? Come on,

Chris Jay 12:50
Dude, that is too cool. But you got to say you had a professional wrestling match. I mean, like, that's a bucket list thing. I think for a lot of people myself included, that is awesome. Dude, that is so cool.

Dave Bullis 13:01
Well, thank you. I'll you know, if you ever want to talk about that, anytime,

Chris Jay 13:05
Kinetic energy here. We're both from the Philly South Jersey area. We both like Cheese Station. Both like wrestling. We both like movies. I mean this, this could get really awkward. Dude, by the end of this podcast, people are going to be like, disgusted, like these two guys love affairs. Ridiculous, man.

Dave Bullis 13:20
Well, most people tune me out anyway, so they're probably me too cool, man, cool. So, you know, just, you know, getting back to the back, you know. So I wanted to ask, you know, Chris, you know, where was the impetus of this idea to actually, for the screenplay? Like, did it? Did it come from, like a friend of yours? Or to come from an idea or a joke?

Chris Jay 13:40
It was an original idea that I had, and honestly, I think it was kind of inspired by the fact that being on tour in a band, right Dave, I got the opportunity to meet a lot of girls that I had gone to school with over the years, like, maybe, you know, you come to town and they live there, and they see that you're in town, and they come to a show, or you invite them, or we would go play in my hometown, in Cape May, a lot, where A lot, where a lot of people you went to school with still lived. And I was always fascinated to see where these girls that I had crushes on, where they ended up. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but just like man in the sixth grade, this girl was, you know, the hottest girl in school, or the girl that I just had a crush on, or wherever it may be. And you know what would happen if you met your crush 20 years later? Like, where are they? Who are they? And that kind of just kind of bounced around in my head, and at one point I don't have a eureka moment, or I remember it. I just always remember when I thought of movie ideas that that was at the top of my list, a guy gets in a bet where he's got to go back and meet every girl that he had a crush on in high school, because it's essentially just a fantasy that I assume I'd like to have. But the reality is, it's not going to be all good. Just because that girl was the cutest girl in sixth grade, she could be like, you know, a white trash drug addict. And I thought what would be funny about that premise is if the guy had to hook up with the. Girl, right? No matter what scenario she's in, he's got to bite the bullet and do so. And it just kind of sounded like it would be a good, fun, raunchy, wacky movie. And I just that was, that was the genesis. So I think it was kind of influenced by having met some of the girls I went to school with and being, hmm, geez, man, that was my crush. Glad that didn't work out, right? But at the same time. I think it lent itself to a good premise, and it, you know, just kind of once Aaron came in and we started writing it together. You know, that's the fun part about script writing. As much as you set it up, you go down different avenues with the script. The new characters get introduced, and things change. And I find that such a fun and fascinating process, how different the project is like. Because when you think about it, at first, because you're a writer, Dave, you know, you're a writer, Dave, you know, you see it just like this, word for word, and it's got to be like this. And these are the characters, and this is a story, but when you start writing that baby, these characters kind of take a life of their own and and even in a silly, raunchy movie like ours, directions, they start moving in different places, and, you know, motivations and scenes, and that's a fun process. I think it's really when you know, when you're just cooking with gas, and you really like where something's going with the script, that's a cool moment, man, that energy, if you can capture it. And I like writing with a partner, because I think you can really feed off people. I think it would be very difficult if I wrote a screenplay by myself, because you don't have that quality control the other person?

Dave Bullis 16:22
Yeah, you know, very true. And, you know, I, as I found, when writing, you know, sometimes I take it way too seriously, and it ends up I try to end up forcing things, you know what I mean, it's like. And then you realize you were supposed you got into writing because it's fun, right? Or you have something to say, or you want to explore something. You know what I mean. And you know that's why, you know, when you were discussing the idea creation and all these characters, you know that's what you need. You need to always, you know, be excited to come back to it when you because you got to write, you know, nobody sits down just writes out the whole thing in one, one fell swoop. You know, you come back and you write it in pieces. You know, you write three pages, five pages, and you got when you come back. You always have to have that excitement. And you know what I mean, you have to have that excitement of, okay, I see where it's going, what's going to happen now, I'm going to be just as surprised as the audience. You know what I mean. So when you were writing this, Chris, I want to ask you, did you buy any of those screenwriting books, like you McKees story or save the cap I play center? Did you buy any of those books?

Chris Jay 17:20
Umm, you know, I didn't, you're talking about the actual screenwriting books. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't, um, it was very, I mean, and again, I think I'm a little spoiled because of the fact that I am a writer, you know. So not that I'm a good writer, but I just had experience writing, you know, even in writing a 500 world article about a band, you still have a beginning and a middle and an end. So I think I understood the process to the point that I didn't. I didn't it just seemed weird to read a book, to tell me how to write a book, if that makes sense, you know. But I definitely grabbed, you know, once we're getting ready to make the movie, I ordered a book online that was like the real truth about indie filmmaking, a complete guide from top to bottom right, that kind of deal, you know. And you'll love this. But, um, you know the book now, I keep it by the bathroom. It's like the bathroom read, dude, the thing was made, like, five years ago, okay? And as I'm reading it, getting ready to make the movie, just looking for pointers. You know, half the information was defunct, and the book was only five years old. Like they were talking about, like, well, this new Netflix saying, nobody's really figured it out yet. And, you know, they're talking about lonely girl 15 was an internet phenomenon. But how can you I mean, and I'm like, my god, this is garbage. I mean, things are moving so fast in the world of technology and film that a book, and a definitive book on the subject in 2012 is now literally archaic, and that's that's wild to me. So it's almost like, What the hell do you read? Unless you read the most recent stuff on the internet? I don't know if anything could really help you know,

Dave Bullis 18:54
Yeah, absolutely. I have tons of I know there's a podcast you can't see, but to my left is tons and tons and tons of how to filmmaking books. I mean, virtually, I have every indie filmmaking book, screenwriting book, producing book you can get. And some of them are just like that. They're just completely Hey, you know, go grab your friends, grab a mini DV cam, you know, shoot some stuff in your backyard, and you know, you can send it to festivals. Well, now I don't have to do any of that. I could use my could use my phone. I don't need a DV tape. I could, you know, and edit an iMovie, or edit in Windows Movie Maker or Premiere or whatever. When I want to, I can just put it right to YouTube.

Chris Jay 19:31
Wild, huh? I mean, the same thing happened with music in terms of how quick you can go like you and I. Right now, can make the decision to start our duo, right? We could write a song, not in person, dude, we could write a song over freaking FaceTime together, right? We could record the conceivably, record the song and release it and have a website up, you know, with a social media account with before, before the sun goes down and, I mean, I'm allowed to curse, right? That's fucked up, dude, that's process isn't supposed to be like that, like, where's the growth, where's the learning. And I think the same thing has happened to film, where it's certainly much more complicated process than writing a song, of course, no doubt, right? But everything that you just said, you can still kind of do, and that's awesome, but it's also that double edged sword of it's really flooding the market and putting a lot of crap out there too. You know, people are, they just release everything, instead of, like, you know, where's the days of kind of just making movies in your backyard and nobody sees them but your parents, and then you slowly grow and get better at it. Now, kids are making their very first thing and throwing it up on YouTube, hoping they get like a viral thing. I don't know. It's just, it just seems it's like it's a hard time for the cream to you know, was it the cream rise to the top or whatever the saying is, I just, it's just really muddy, man. Technology has made things so awesome. We could never make the movie that we made without it. But at the same time, I am also aware that there's a lot of films. Maybe some people would think our film that are being made, and it's almost, you know, blocking the path for other movies. It's a weird time, man, I feel like we're just living in a very strange age, you know?

Dave Bullis 21:10
Oh yeah, absolutely we are. And, you know, it's funny, because there's a short film called panic attack, and it actually, I forget the guy who made it, but Hollywood found it, and they actually gave him the job of directing the remake of Evil Dead, okay, just because of that. Wow. So it's almost like, now, you know this whole avenue of YouTube and podcasting and self publishing, it's like they're bypassing not just one gatekeeper, but like 25 because now you're almost like your own Agent Manager. Because now you can say, oh, no, I don't want to sell this, these book rights, or I don't want to sell your rights. I want to sell this, I mean, but you're right, there is, there are a lot more players out there now. But you know, I think that as long as you have something that is that can stand above anybody else. I had Paul pedito on here, and he when he and I were talking about that exact same thing, because he was always saying, you know, he tells his film students, you know, you have to make something. And they're saying, well, there's like, 10 cochillian things on on YouTube right now. And he says, you have, you know, how do you stand out? How do you get on the front page of iTunes? How do you get on the front page of Netflix? You know what I mean? And it's just all, and it just, it really depends upon what's hot, your concept, how polished it is. I mean, you have a lot of different factors. Now, maybe it's the same factors always have been there, but they're always but, you know, they're always have to sort of work out like in your favor, like we were talking earlier, but in the pre interview, maybe, you know, some guy, some some days, some guy wakes up, has a great morning, and all of a sudden your TV pilot gets made. You know what I mean?

Chris Jay 22:41
Yeah, and that's Wow, man. It's a depressing thought, but it's just, I mean, yeah, I certainly don't want to go down the negative Road, for lack of a better word, but I think it's a terrifying prospect. I mean, I used to, and I keep falling back on music, but that's just who I am. And I think what's happening to the film world happened to the indie to the music world about 10 years ago, right? But yes, I used to tell kids, dude, just get in the van. Man, just do it. Dude, just go for it. Just do it. You know, good, bad, learn, go do it, dedicate some time. And now I don't say that, and it really freaks me out that if a kid comes to me and says, we just started a band, what do we do? I don't tell them to hop in a van. Where they gonna go, where they gonna play, who's gonna give a shit, you know? And I wonder, in some ways, if it's that similar to the film world, you know, like if a kid right out of the gate wants to do it. I mean, it's probably not, you know, I don't want to say going for the big time the brass ring, but it's probably much more honing your craft on web series and smaller things instead of jumping right into it, you know, guns blazing, you know, I just it's strange man, you know, and I come from such a different perspective, because I didn't have that educated film background that somebody like yourself does. So I think some of the reason we got this made was sheer tenacity and dumb luck and a lack of education. Because I think if we knew what we were getting into and how much time it would be and how expensive it would be, we probably wouldn't have done it, you know, and that's kind of that sometimes being naive can lead to good things if you're willing to put the work in. You know, a lot of people, I think, took mercy on us, Dave, they were just like, you're doing what? Like? You can't do that. Oh, god, okay, well, let me help you. Good luck. Good luck falling on your face on this one. Good luck making a feature film. Come on, you know. And somehow we pulled it off, but we surrounded ourselves with good people to help pull it off. But, I mean, man, people heard our budget, and people hear where we wanted to shoot it in Ventura, not Los Angeles. They were looking at us like we were lunatics, dude. I mean, like, you know, what the cool thing is, we proved a lot of people wrong. We got it done, but it was a painful, long process. It was not smooth sailing, you know,

Dave Bullis 24:47
Yeah, yeah, definitely, it definitely. I understand completely where you're coming from. And, you know, just to sort of, as we're talking about writing the BEX, I do want to talk about actually making a move, but yeah, as we're talking about when you're writing the bet, did you guys actually. Did you use final draft or fade in to write the movie? Do you use any software?

Chris Jay 25:03
Check this out. We were so naive. Aaron did the typing. I did the talking. We didn't really know about Final Draft. We had heard of it. We were kind of aware what it was. And I'm sure your listeners will be like, Are you kidding me? We were literally indenting every time a new character talked, like, the first draft or two drafts that we did, we turned it into, you know, Reza, who was kind of helping us and giving us some guidance, who ended up producing the film. And he was like, man. He was like, There's something wrong with your final draft. And we're like, What do you mean? He was like, Don't tell me you typed this. And we're like, yeah, he was like, Oh my God, you know what? I mean, he was like, Dude, he was like, That's remarkable. He was like, how long did this take? And we're like, What would take hours, you know, we'd write it and then spend another couple hours, like, indenting, indenting, indenting, centering, you know, bracketing. I mean, it was trial by fire, man, if you can believe that we did get final draft, and it was like a whole new world, you know, like, it just changed. Everything. But you like, literally, that's how backwards where it was, like, Mick Foley writing his biography on on pen and paper, you know, it's like, there's something kind of cool about that, but I can't believe we did it. I'd love to get those hours of my life back, you know?

Dave Bullis 26:17
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. You know, I know, like James Patterson and Quentin Tarantino, they still use, like, pad and pen. Wow. I still do it too sometimes. But now, you know what my the biggest con of that is, Chris is the fact that now you're ending up with like, notepads and, like, seriously, I have like, stacks of notebooks that I've been writing in, and I'm always sitting there going, you know, someday I'm gonna have to scan these things, yeah, yeah. And just, and just do away with it, because Evernote has changed my life, because I that's where I just, if I have an idea, I pull up my phone, go, okay, hold on. Let me just write this down real quick. Okay, so you know what I mean? I just type like that, and then I'll come back later on and put, you know, pull it all up, and then go, Okay, now I'll get into final draft or fade in, whatever I'm using.

Chris Jay 26:57
But do you wonder sometimes, I mean, not to get on a bigger, sort of like a deeper meaning. But, you know, do programs like that, have they have, they cheapen things a little bit. I mean, like, all the greats back in the day, they didn't have final draft, right? I mean, like, you know, when a guy like Mankiewicz was banging out Citizen Kane, he didn't have somebody indenting things for him. I mean, these guys are on typewriters, man, and then they bang scripts out. I mean, you just kind of wonder as much as it's made things easier, like, has it affected worth work ethic in a lot of ways, you know?

Dave Bullis 27:28
Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I want to say that. I hope it has just made it so they can concentrate, like guys like us, can just concentrate on the craft more without having to worry about stuff. Like, you know what? I mean, like, getting, you know, getting, you know, bogged down with that. I mean, technology, in of itself, is supposed to make things easier, like in the pre interview, we're talking about, if, when technology works, it's phenomenal. But that is good question. I mean, personally, I could never go back down to using anything else besides fine, yeah, so, I mean, like, it's if I ever had to go back, I would, I would probably, I don't know, take a header off the roof.

Chris Jay 28:04
Gotcha Understood? Understood you wouldn't be alone. Just be screenwriters. You probably live because you'd land on their corpses or something, you know,

Dave Bullis 28:12
Yeah, that's right with live because, like, somebody lived. James Patterson, when he does is he writes all longhand. He gives it all to a secretary. She put, like, types it all up, and then gives it back to him. And he has a problem. He has a process, and it's triple spaced, and that he can,

Chris Jay 28:26
If you have a secretary, you know, oh, yeah, aren't lucky enough to afford these type of things, yeah?

Dave Bullis 28:32
Well, yeah, that's what, that's what I was Gus was saying was, you know, he does have a secretary. I mean, that's why I think he can get away with it. And Tarantino, I don't know what he does. Maybe he has a secretary at some point.

Chris Jay 28:43
I imagine he's got a few at this point.

Dave Bullis 28:48
So, all right, so you know, we know you have written the bet. So I just want to take us through this process of, you know, you had the idea, you wrote the bet, you've actually got final drafts. You're able to actually correctly format it. So what was the point where you started pitching to people you know? Did and did you? Did you pitch to investors? Did you try to crowdfund this?

Chris Jay 29:08
Yeah, so, I mean, it's an important part of the story, and I think that's what people everybody's interested in that right? Where the hell you find the money? So when we decided to do it, okay, what we did, I'm giving you the step by step, we came up with three budgets. We didn't do one of these things where it has to be this amount of money, right? We came up with our bare bones, super backyard indie budget, right? We came up with, you know, our ideal budget. And we came up with something in the middle. And when I say ideal, we weren't asking for sick money, you know what I mean? We were saying, like, ideal for a micro budget movie. Okay? So we had these three different budgets. And basically we said, Let's initially go to some friends and family, like, you know. And again, we're not talking about all our, you know, broke music buddies, you know, we went to mom and dad, you know, aunts and uncles, um, Aaron and I, you know, literally pitched them personally. Couple people came in with just a little bit of money. We found a couple $1,000 to be completely blunt. And what we did, Dave, is we used that as seed money to try and find bigger money. And what I mean is, if you're trying to, let's say, take meetings, or you need to fly somewhere, or whatever it is, you need a little bit of money to do that. You know, a guy like me that works a part time job and is normally always dead broke, I don't have a budget to go if I get a meeting in New York, hop on a plane and fly out there. And then, let's face it, if you're meeting someone, you probably want to pay for the dinner, right? Want to pay for the dinner, right? If you're actually trying to get them to invest in your freaking film. So what we use that couple $1,000 for was seed money. And I mean that what we did is we printed pitch packs. We, you know, put a little budget for travel, we put a little budget for food, and we sort of use that for our money to try and find more money, if that does that make sense? So we didn't take the first five grand and like, Hey, here's our first five grand for the movie. We took it as almost our money, and I had to give ourselves a couple bucks, not to lie to you, so we could take a little time off work and actively take two months, right? And look for money. So that's what we did. And I think maybe that's a little different than most people, you know, because I think you know, because I think some people put the money away in the budget for the film, but then how do they, you know, how do they fly out to get that meeting? How do they do this or that? And I think talking to somebody in person is infinitely, always better when you're talking about finances, you know, you can look them in the eye. They can see your passion. It's, it's, real. It's tangible. You're dealing with the human being, you know. And this is what happened. This is how we got our executive producers. First off, luck is a huge part of it. But obviously, being an army of freshmen, right? We had, you know, a lot of connections in the music world. We were, I was friends with and very kind of casual friends, obviously now grown to be very close friends, but casual friends with two, if you can believe this, theater producers in the United Kingdom, theater. When I say theater, I mean theater, you know, like musicals, like shows, right? And I know that they have been friends with some other bands that I that I was friends with, and I knew that they were visiting the United States. And, you know, they kind of told me once, hey, if you ever have some projects going on, just keep us posted. You know, that kind of thing. But basically, I knew these were people that were open to the arts, if that makes sense, because they came from a theatrical background. So I reached out to them, because I knew they're going to be in the United States. I said, Hey, I'd have this project I love. This product I'd love to tell you about. They said, Hey, come on out. And this is completely true. And this is where I talk about the seed money. They were going to be in Disneyland, and I live in California, so they were going to be in the, you know, Disney, the Disney in Florida, right? So we took Dave, we took the last money in the pot, right? Bought a plane ticket, bought a cheap motel, six, got the cheapest rental possible, okay? And I flew out by myself because we couldn't afford to bring Reza or Aaron with me. That's the CO writer and the producer, and I met them at Disneyland, and I sat down over lunch at Disney right? And I told him what we were doing, and I told them what we were trying to do. And I told them we were looking for, you know, executive producers and investor for the project. And I gave them, you know, two budgets, you know, I gave them the, not the ghetto backyard budget, but I gave them our moderate and I gave them our ideal. And again, when I say ideal, it wasn't like, hey, millions more. I'm talking like, hey, another $20,000 or something, right? And they said, Okay, well, think about it. Thanks for talking to us. Blah, blah, blah. And then about two weeks later, I got an email saying that they're in. They were down to be the lead investor, you know, as long as we could find a couple other smaller investors to, you know, do it. And that was that we were off and running. And literally, that is the story of how we got our executive producers for the project. And I have to say this, because you just you got to plug the people to help you right. Their names are Craig beach and Theresa Beach, theatrical producers over in the United Kingdom and Dave. They were so awesome. Literally, I tell other people about our executive producers, and they're like, they start crying because they can't believe it, because usually the executive producers are hell, when's it getting released? When are we getting our money? What's going on? How come it's taken so long? Dave, we were doing a lot of first time stuff, and, you know, we're new to it. Like, I mean, a regular investor probably would have, I mean, probably would have taken legal action against us because things were taken so long, but we had such a limited budget, we had to go really slow to make things were right, and we were a small team, so we were very lucky that way. But I what I would have to say about that, if somebody is looking for advice, and man, how do I get my project filmed? Find a couple dollars and almost use that as, as I say, seed money. Use it as the money that you're going to use to try and find the investors, if that makes sense at all, almost like find a little bit of money just to be able to give yourself a month or two months to send emails all day and make phone calls all day and connect dots, like these are dots I wasn't in film, where I just called up a film producer, and they said, I want to back your movie, right? I was in music, and I knew somebody in music that had been involved in some musicals in the UK, so I knew they were involved in theatrical projects, right, as a bit of a relationship with them. So it was outside the box. And I think in this day and age, that's the only way to find money for film, unless you're one of the big daddies, and I may be wrong, but unless you're a big daddy, or unless your parents are filthy rich, which mine certainly are not, you have to think outside the box. You have to look in different places. So this small, tiny, micro budget, raunchy indie comedy essentially, was made and executive produced by two theatrical producers in another country. So I know that's a bit of a long story, but I just want to stress that if someone's looking for money, you've got to look in places where maybe people haven't looked before. Theater People help make a movie, as opposed to movie people that are bitter, right? And they've gone down that road, they know how difficult it is for indie film theater, people actually found it more fascinating than actual film producers who we met with that just rolled their eyes and said, Good luck.

Dave Bullis 36:31
You know, that's an interesting strategy, Chris, you know, and you know, I always am fascinated with how, you know, people have gotten their movie made. And you know, that is an excellent point, because you're right, you want to. I mean, checking out theater people. And you know what I mean, like, they're not this is, this is new to them too. You know what I mean? This is, this is still cool to them. And if you do get some film people, there's a lot of bitter, burned out people in the film industry, and they just sort of go, oh, another film. Blah, blah, blah. And that's why I try to be the difference to that. You know, I'm always trying. I always trying. I always try to stay upbeat and positive and, you know, and it's the same thing too, you know, for you know, everyone listening, if you're going to make a production staff or whatever crew you have, make sure that they all believe in the project and that no one is negative or bitter, because that that attitude spreads like a virus.

Chris Jay 37:19
It's death, it's death. It's absolute death on set. It's death in pre production, just because somebody's coup and just because somebody has great gear, just because somebody has good hookups or a good resume, I'm telling you, man, don't fucking work with them if you are indie. Find people that are hungry and young and they want to kill for it like you. It's just not worth it. I mean, I'd rather shoot on a lesser camera and have a DP that's thrilled to be there. You know, I'd rather have somebody that maybe is not on a TV show, and I found them in a theater program, but they're believing in that character. They're becoming that character. Because, dude, that jadedness is terrifying. And the great thing that we did one of the key things to get this thing done, because I'm telling you, we didn't have enough money to do it, Dave, and we didn't have enough Dave, we didn't have enough time to do it. We didn't have enough people to do it. But we got people that were stoked. We got our director, our producer, knew a guy that was doing a web series, right? Didn't go to film school, Director by the name of Ryan ederer, right, had never done a feature, had never done a TV show. We literally had just done web series, right? And our producer when he was looking for the director, for the director for this, went to see him work on a web series. They had mutual friends, and he said the director was holding the boom mic and shouting instructions, right, and also running to get coffee for everybody. And he said that's when he knew this could be our guy, right? Because he was so passionate right over a little web series that most likely, no one's going to see. How passionate would he be if he got to do a very, very small feature? So we met with him at a Denny's, right? You know, he actually reminds me of you, to be quite frank. You know, just because he's positive like that, and he just said, guys, if you let me direct this movie, all I want to do is direct a feature. He said, I will quit my job. I'm a waiter in LA I will quit my job for pre production and for the filming and for at least a solid month after done, I will live on nothing. You know? I mean, we gave him peanuts day, peanut everybody worked for so cheap on this, but I think it was we found the good people. But I also think they believed in my passion and Aaron's passion and Reza passion. I mean, when I hunted down some of the cast, which are some really super crazy, cool stories, but, dude, I was coming to them with nothing, but I was coming to them with passion. You know what I mean? Like, please, you know, you know, just like, let's get behind this, if that makes sense, and it appeals to a certain type of person. Not everybody. Dude, some people blew me right off, right? But you'd be surprised some of the cool little people you can pull because they're just good people. At the end of the day, it's getting to them, it's getting to them. It's all connections, and it's all How do you get to that person? You know,

Dave Bullis 40:07
Yeah, very, very true. And when you said you're he reminded me. He reminded me of he reminded you of me. I was gonna say, What is he a five foot nine ginger like,

Chris Jay 40:18
But he's a five foot nine from five foot nine kid from Chicago.

Dave Bullis 40:22
Aha, okay, yeah. I always like to, always want to ask, but no, but all kidding aside, though, you know, I agree completely. Man, you know, just going back to that, you know, having that passionate people, man, on set and avoiding all that negativity, because it is it now. It not only is a virus, it drains everyone's energy, and it also causes a lot more conflict with each other. And, you know, because I've been on those sets, Chris, you know, where all of a sudden, you know, someone comes in like, this is okay, I guess I want to be here. And then over then you have people who are just flat out like, oh, I don't, I don't want to be here anyway. This thing's gonna suck. Let me tell you about my let me I had a real quick story. I was on a film set one time, and this is years ago, when I was just was just goofing around making a student film, and I had this guy come on, and all he did, all this, he was, he's my director of cinematography, and he came recommended by this other guy I know. And all he did was tell everybody about his latest project. He could, you could not stop him from talking about it between takes. All he did, he was like, You know what? This reminds me of my movie, blah, blah, blah, Jesus Christ, Yo, I got it, dude, you're making a zombie film. Congrats. Congratulations. You know, there's 25 trillion of them. You know, you can add you were still on other projects.

Chris Jay 41:33
And instead of working on that project, all they do is talk about their project. We had somebody like that show up, and I won't get into any details beyond that, but it was just like, Dude, you know, it's kind of like he was kind of driving the director nuts because he kept talking about the project that he was working on. It's like, Hey, man, you know, like, that's awesome. Dude, stoked to help you. But we're fucking, you know, we got a day left of filming here we, you know, we are making the tiniest movie of all time. Like, we don't have time for this. Like, we'll just stay on board here, man, call next week and we'll talk about the zombie movie, you know,

Dave Bullis 42:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know. And it's like, if they had played their cards, right, they could have had an ally, instead of just, you know, boring everyone to death, just going, Hey, man, by the way, my own movie, like, we got it, yeah, you know, we got every you know, you know what I mean. So

Chris Jay 42:14
When you're on set, you know, do the job that you do, try and make connections, but, but, but work hard on the job you do, because that's what will really come through, especially in the indie setting. And I'm telling you, Dave, there's so many good things aligned up with this cast and the people involved. But, you know, we didn't get a lot of strangers. Reza was like, hey, I want to work with this DP, I know, you know, I got one or two stand ups that would be great for these roles. Let's try them first. I got an actor buddy that was in this other indie I did try him, and lo and behold, I look at the cast, there's a handful of people that we got from open casting. And we had huge open casting, we brought tons of people in, but I'd say 75% of that cast is a direct connection in one way or another. It's probably only a handful of people that we walked in and didn't know, and they just kicked so much, but we put them in, and I think a lot of people like to work with who they know, but there's a reality to that, so it's good to make a lot of friendships and connections, because you got a better chance of getting thrown into a film as an actor, if you're a waiter with the director who just got this small indie than just going to an open casting call. I almost wonder if it's even possible to do that anymore, to even get in a movie, just as a dude who walked in a room, hi, you don't know me. I'm here to show you how awesome I am, because in the back of the head they're sitting there, and they got their buddy or their nephew or their uncle or their neighbor or, you know, it's very incestuous, and our movie was no exception to that. But you trust those people. They didn't screw us. You know, we had strange we had one lady take us to sag, because we canceled her, because we had to cut the roll, because we couldn't film the scene. Dave, it was $150 roll, and she contacted sag and said, I need to be paid because they canceled on the day of she hadn't even left her house yet, dude, you know what I mean. So will we ever work with her again? Hell no. If we ever hear about her again, we'll be like, dude, that fill in the blank literally cost us $150 when we had nothing in the bank because a roll got cut. She wasn't in the car, she wasn't on set. Literally, she was just waking up and I said, I'm so so so sorry. But that just gives you an example of that type of attitude can be deadly, you know. So I'm glad she wasn't in it, because if somebody would do that, would do that to a small, tiny, little movie to get your 150 bucks, like, how would you have been on set? You know? I just, I just don't think you can be positive enough, even if you're not a positive person, learn to be because I don't think this is the business for you, if you're not ready to really just be nothing but good energy.

Dave Bullis 44:39
Yeah, I concur, you know. And the funny thing is, when last time I casted for a film I was shooting in, we did it the right way. We had, we had it at a studio. We had, you know, we had, we had two rooms. We had everything so, and we had a great audition room. It was on an elevated stage. And I had a rule, no. Know we, I am going to cast everybody that I don't know, people, people got, you know, that I knew, got to go up there, and I gave everyone a shot who I think even had a remote shot. And we whole day, and I actually ended up casting everybody who I didn't know completely. I had no friends, no family, nothing. Everybody was somebody I didn't know I was meeting for the first time, though, all those people proved out to be right. They were all great, great people, except for actually, let me. Let me amend what I just said. There's one person I hired based upon a producer who wanted him. And I said, Okay. I said, I will. I will. I will take a chance this person, that person, ended up being the problem. Okay, yeah, and that was because I knew, and I said, this is why I wanted all fresh faces. But by the way, it's funny, you mentioned about sag, because this person kept, you know, as I didn't even, I announced casting, and then I didn't even bother, like, you know what I mean, like my producers were on Facebook all the time, and I and, you know, at that point I, you know, I have a on and off relationship with Facebook. But anyways, dude, who doesn't, oh my god, the drama on Facebook. Like, who needs this shit? Honestly, the

Chris Jay 46:11
Whole promoted post shit, like, isn't the whole premise of Facebook is, if somebody likes you and they click like that, they get to know about what you're doing, and now you have to pay them to let them know what you're doing. It's like, ridiculous, dude. It's like you have like, 10,000 followers, and your posts reached five people. Like, Well, what about the 9599 five people that want to know what I'm doing, and now I have to pay you to do it. I almost feel like they invented that, they made it awesome, and then once they had the whole world on it, they decided to start getting fucking paid and screw you. The whole purpose of this is out the window. So, I mean, Facebook, to me is, I want it to go the way in my space, let it burn. You know,

Dave Bullis 46:49
It's like the mafia, man. Anything you want done on Facebook you got to pay for

Chris Jay 46:53
Absolutely totally Facebook, the mafia of social media.

Dave Bullis 46:58
But I was just gonna, just to finish that thought, This guy said, you know, hey, I would like to, like to try out, and I like to, you know, for a role. And already I've been warned about this guy, real creepy dude, real sleaze bag. Well, one of my producers says, Listen, you know, we'll be casting soon enough, or we're crowdfunding right now. He took us to sag and said that we were trying to make him pay to audition. Oh my god. And sag thankfully sided with us, and they said, No, they did not say that. Blah blah. I told my producer. I said, Don't even talk to him. I said, I told you about this guy, and then I mean, that caused a problem between us. And I mean, all because of this, this really wormy guy,

Chris Jay 47:41
Almost bizarre. It's like those people, just like I always fear. There's a lot of people in this world that I would like to fucking tell the fuck off, right? But I don't, because I just feel that you burn bridges. You never know what's going to occur, especially in a business like this. Why would you ever even somebody's a dick? Okay, they're a jerk. You're my homeboy, Dave. I call you on the slide and say, Dave, do not work with Chuck schmucatello. He's terrible, right? But why tell chuck that he's a terrible person? I even in life, I don't do that. When I meet somebody I don't like, it's like, what's the point, dude? Like, why throw that negative energy out there? I mean, it's just, but I just think people that do that in this business, what are they fools? They don't think people talk. I mean, it's just insanity, you know?

Dave Bullis 48:24
Oh, dude, I was one time on Facebook that, you know, the Philly film scene. As we were talking the pre interview, this guy gets on his Facebook, tags a local producer, and says the and says, Oh, this guy's a piece of shit. Fuck him. Blah, blah. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, this has to be a joke. I said, because there's no way this guy is serious. They start going back and forth all over Facebook, and the one and the guy chimes back with, well, it's not a good idea to make enemies with a producer. And they're going back and this guy, because the other guy was an actor, they're going back and forth. Other people are getting brought in. And I go, all these people have just entered my blacklist because, I mean, I would never want anything like this to happen.

Chris Jay 49:05
And the crazy deal like, Why, it's just, there's a lot of weird stuff out there. So obviously, you and I are jumping all over the place. But the whole point of that, to go back to the bet, the movie that that we made is, man, we eliminated that, Dave. I mean, it was awesome. If you were to go on this set, you literally would be treated with so much kindness and respect and check this out. When we were doing auditions, I would ask people that I was interested at the end, when they got up. I literally, I even the girl who plays our lead actress, who's going on to do some really cool stuff, I said, Because I loved her, I thought she was great. And I was just like, um, I have one last question. Like, are you a nice person? And she was stunned, and she was just like, uh, what do you mean? Like, I don't know. Just like, we're new to this, and, you know, we're scared of, like, the whole actress Hollywood reputation, like, we just want nice, normal people. Like, are you friendly, like, in real life? And she started laughing, and she's like, Yeah, yeah, I'm friendly in real life. But she was so stunned to hear that question. But it came from a very honest place, you know, like, Are you being real right now, or are you being nice because you want to get cast in this? Like, if we're having lunch, can we talk to each other? Are you going to be I don't want to be here. I just did it. Get everything on my reel. I got something better. Now I need to go be a hot chick on the set of, you know, 30 rock. I'd be bad example. But you know what I mean? Like, it was, I was so obsessed with making sure that people were nice. I wanted them talented too. There's a couple people we passed on. I think that could have maybe even helped the movie, because they had a bit of a name, because I met him, and I was like, I got a bad feeling, man. I got a bad feeling like they're not going to take this seriously. They want to be in bigger shit. I'd like those people that are kind of bubbling, that are really hungry and want to do good work. Because there was a lot of like with the dads. We cast two professional wrestlers. We cast Diamond Dallas Page and Jake the Snake Roberts, which is a wild story, but we had a couple leads on some dads, or more like character actors, and I won't say any names, but dudes that you and I know, but there were these B movie dudes, Dave, these dudes that like, Yo, you give them five grand a day, right? And they'll come and they'll barely know the lines. But you can say you've got the dude from this TV show in it, or the guy that was in this movie, you know. And they just make a living popping around these bean movies, I even hear one guy wore an earpiece. And I'm like, what? That guy's not even that big, but they're like, he wears an earpiece, and you feed him his lines, but hey, you can give him five grand, and then you can say so and so's the dad in your little, tiny movie. And I just thought that was so horrifying and kind of sad too. But it's a reality, you know?

Dave Bullis 51:42
Yeah, yeah, you know. I just, I was just thinking right now, a guy on set with an earpiece and someone, some, some pa feeding him live,

Chris Jay 51:49
And what does he say? Like, you know, okay, Mr. So and So, say this one sad, you know, I miss you son, you know. And he's just like, I miss you. I mean, imagine editing around that. I mean, imagine making sure the dude's hair covers the ear piece. And that's a reality that a filmmaker would do, because, hey, at least he's got some type of name. So on the stupid cover we can put featuring the dude from, I'm trying to think of a TV show, you know what I mean. But featuring the dude from, you know, you see them, Dave, you know, I don't have to do names. You see those guys that just, they're like, why are they in so many B movies where they just take the five grand a day and that's that, and then people cram their scenes in one day because they can't afford them for two days. You know, it's crazy, man.

Dave Bullis 52:32
You know, my favorite dad, who's actually starting B movies was, is Michael Gross from family ties, where he's he's in tremors. And I actually know somebody who's worked with him, and he says, No, Michael is not like that at all. Michael actually shows up. He still works hard. He's the nicest guy. And I said,

Chris Jay 52:49
I hasn't done more. I actually thought he was a really good actor. Like, is he still around?

Dave Bullis 52:55
Oh yeah, he's still around. He just released tremors five with him and Jamie Kennedy,

Chris Jay 52:58
Wow, wow. Dude, great name, great. That's a hell of a pull, right there. Dude, that's, that's somebody that's, just seems like a good actor. I bet he's a good dude. You know, that's what? Yeah, that's an interesting one. You forget about people like that. There's so many of them floating around out there. It's, it's got to be brutal, dude. I mean, to be an actor has just got to be tough.

Dave Bullis 53:16
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I have friends who are actors, and we're always going back and forth about, you know, auditioning, casting and stuff like this. And, you know, because, you know, you know how it is Chris, because some people know, hey, Dave, you know what's this director like I'm going to work with? And I say, you know, he's, you know, he's pretty, no nonsense. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And this one's, you know, real, you know, fast and loose. Just wants to have fun. So, you know what I mean, it just stuff like that, you know. And it's most and I would never recommend anybody like we were just talking about. I would never recommend anybody who I wasn't 100% confident in, you know what I mean? And I mean that that really is critical, you know. And I would, by the way, I would love to work with Michael Gross someday. I I've not only heard good things about him, but I heard, you know, I still, I love everything he's in, all the tremors movies. He makes those tremors movies.

Chris Jay 54:03
And plus, if he ever writes an autobiography, he already has the greatest title ever, just a gross life, and it's just hidden on the front looking sad, you know,

Dave Bullis 54:12
Just covered in blood of a tremor of a gravel. So, you know, Chris, as we you know, as we're talking about the bet I wanted to ask, and I always ask this to any filmmakers, what was the biggest challenge, whether it was a day, whether it was a specific incident, you know, what was the, you know, the biggest obstacle you had to overcome while you were making this,

Chris Jay 54:32
During during filming, or during the whole process, during filming, okay, um, during filming, okay? Because we filmed over 13 days, you know, we shot it in 13 days, all in the city of Ventura. The most difficult thing was during filming. The most difficult thing was the wearing of the different hats, because we were so small that Aaron and I were the set dressers. Right? Aaron and I were the the. Wardrobe dudes. Aaron and I were the prop guys. Aaron and I were the Go get the catering guys. And Aaron and I were also the, oh, geez, we were, I mean, we were, we were so much, we were so much, and it was too many hats. The lesson that I learned hopefully when we make our next one, oh, actually, I should talk positive when we make our next one, next year, right? The key thing, I think would be, is you just can't have enough of those assistants, not people to beat up or bully or make you go get coffee, you know what I mean, but just somebody there with you. Like, hey. Like, this is kind of my guy, you know what I mean. Like, you know, hey, I'm just gonna make this up. But Steve, Steve, you're with me, Ryan, you're with Aaron, yo. We'll treat you great. Nothing but love. But we just need a sec, a set of hands that you're always with me, almost like, give me two extra arms, you know. We're going to be doing some fun stuff, you know, but we just bit off more than we could choose, so it was hard to focus on that. And then I was also picking up wrestlers at airports. And we also had other people helping with this. Dave, I don't want you to think it was just four people making this movie, right? But we just thought we could do more. I wanted to be on set more dude, you know, and me sitting there watching it, and, you know, as the writer and CO producer, I wanted to be watching the actual movie get made. And I spent 50% of that movie not on set, but setting up the set, or picking people up, or picking up food because we were so small, you know? So I guess, I guess the most difficult thing was wearing too many hats. You got to find a way to find more people to help with the hats, but you have to trust them. And I really, and don't trust many people. I had a vision of how every room should look. I had a vision of, I knew the relationships with the restaurants that were doing the catering. So how can I send somebody when I need to be the one that goes in there, and it's Chris's face that they know, and that's why they're giving them a bunch of tacos. So it was just that, you know, I think you can wear too many hats, and sometimes that can probably be the death of small movies. But again, we had a lot of good people around us, so that, to me, was the most difficult thing. I should have trimmed a couple things off the list that I was responsible for, but we wanted to take that money, Dave, and put it in other places. And I think that's why our movie, hopefully, when you see it, hopefully you'll like it and find it funny, but I think you'll see man, for the budget. Damn. These guys did a good job of making this stuff look legit, you know. And I think that's because we put money, we saved money in certain places, where other places would get trailers right, or other places would hire a cating company, or other places would pay for food, or other places would hire a set dresser. We did all of that, you know, and that really, I think, made things difficult, but made us to make a movie that's better.

Dave Bullis 57:34
Yeah, you know, that is something I always talk about with filmmakers, is there's a tendency to read something like Robert Rodriguez's film without a filmmaker, without a crew, or even like the the the rebels guide by Stu makovitz. And it's almost like, and I've done this to myself, it's almost as if we try to be a one man crew, and it ends up hurting you more than helping you. And I completely understand Chris when you're talking about putting that money elsewhere. That's what I've always thought of, too. Is, you know, why should I have, you know, I can be the camera operator and the cinematographer and the and the boom mic operator, and I'll edit this thing, and you know what I mean, and I'll be the colorist. Well, I'll do Foley, just because you can, should you that's the question, exactly. Yeah. So that's why, when I make movies from now on, I always just want to be the writer, the director and the producer, and even, that's a lot. Even,

Chris Jay 58:23
Yeah, that's a lot, dude, that's a lot. I think the writer is the easiest one of the bunch, because your work's kind of done. Like, what are you going to do on set? Maybe catch a line that you want done a little different. It's, you know, what I'm saying, like, I think you can handle being like, but it sounds like, Yeah, I'm not certain. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, but you're right. I mean, you just wear so many hats because you can. But then again, at the end, the hardest part, the hardest part the whole movie, forget the filming. Filming was awesome, is post production. We were not prepared. We were not ready. We ran out of money. Tech issue after tech issue after tech issue after tech issue to the point of we the film is out upon release of this podcast right? Came out today, I believe, so the film can be seen blah, blah, blah, but I'm talking to you a couple days before we release it, right? Let's be honest. So our premiere is in Los Angeles in 48 hours, and we just just got the blu ray completed to show it, because the core producer and director spent the past 10 days doing program after program after recording after program to burn a freaking Blue Ray. I mean, like, that's what we're talking about, and it's tech. Tech. Tech, Tech. Tech has been a complete nightmare for something like this, because we haven't had the money to have a real, proper post production team, and it really made things take a long time. And was, really, was brutal, man. So I would say tech is the hardest part of it, which is funny, because it's the first thing you and I said when we got on the phone in the pre interview,

Dave Bullis 59:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm so glad though, that everything has worked out honestly, man. Because I honestly Chris, because I hear so many, you know, independent films. You know, they have a budget, whatever that budget might be, and they they get to like, 75% done, 80% done, and then all of a sudden they have to stop, for whatever reason. You know what I mean. I there's so many movies in the Philadelphia, especially in the Philadelphia especially in the Philadelphia area, where, you know, I am, where I've, you know, I've been a part of films like that, where I've been an actor for them, or I've helped out in crew or something, and all of a sudden, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, that movie's on some guy's hard drive, and we're probably never going to finish it.

Chris Jay 1:00:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And how sad is that? Is there anything more sad in the world than that, man, I mean, like, you know that heart and soul and blood, sweat and tears and it's just gone? Like, oh man. I mean, I'd be devastated, dude. We were devastated how long post production was taking. And at one point I had, I was never going to give in to the vision, but there was a vision of, is this going to be one of these things, you know what I'm saying? Like, is this going to be one of these things that can't get done because we ran out of money? That was a real tough time. You know? I mean, post production took a long time, and, man, it's depressing. It's kind of scary. Like, oh my god. Like, you know, what are the investors gonna mean, I'm being honest with you, because it's a filmmaking podcast, right? But like, what are the investors gonna do if we, if we can't pull this off, what happens to the footage? What happens to our reputations? I mean, like, so we just stayed in the pocket. But, I mean, the amount of work, my God, Dave, if you could have told me ahead of time, I would have done it, of course, but geez, would I have questioned my sanity? You know? Because, I mean, I've basically remained in poverty just to get this thing done, because I can only work part time, because I need to spend the rest of the time working on the movie, man. I mean, it's God, is it a labor of love. I just have such a deep respect for people that make movies. Now, I will never shit on a movie. I may not like it, but an indie film, I'll shit on the studio ones all day, you know, but I will never shit on an indie film again. And when I say indie, let's talk about real indies, dude. I'm not talking about a million dollar indie with Daniel Radcliffe being a guy who farts as a corpse. I'm talking about like, you know, I'm talking about like, Hey, you made a movie for $100,000 you made a movie for 150 you made a move for 75 basically, you pull off a movie for under $150,000 and you have my respect forever, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
Yeah, and I agree completely. And by the way, Swiss Army Man, I somebody told me the premise of that movie, and I thought they were joking around, and then, and then I saw a trailer, and I was like, Oh, okay. I said, you know, Chris, I've seen so many weird movies over the years. At this point, I'm like, You know what? I'll take a gamble on this one too.

Chris Jay 1:02:32
Yeah, cool. Good for you, man, good for you. Maybe. I mean, honestly, it'd probably be like a freaking masterpiece, right? Could probably be like the most important film made in years, you know, so good for them. You got to respect somebody doing something different, you know, you have to. But people are telling me, like, it's this new indie, get the fuck out. Ain't nothing indie about a movie with those two guys in it. Come on. You know, the CGI alone, when he rides them through the ocean, probably costs like, $100,000 you know, you and I could have made five shorts for that, you know?

Dave Bullis 1:03:01
Yeah, seriously, I mean, and I believe I understand completely what you're saying, Chris and I and, you know, because, I mean, I've made movies for literally nothing, just everyone doing it for the love of the game. And then I've made things for like, 2530, $40,000 and you're like, holy crap. It sounds like a lot of money when I started, and now it's like, down to nothing, yeah.

Chris Jay 1:03:20
I mean, it's, man, it's just a, it's, it's a mind blowing business, man, I got a lot of respect for you guys that do this and love it and breathe it because it's so hard to get it done. I mean, what other thing can you name that you just can't do? Right? If I want to be a pro baseball player, probably not going to happen. But damn it, I can play baseball every day of my life, right? I can get in an intramural league. I can play and fill in the blank with anything else music. Okay, maybe I'm not going to be, you know, um, I'll give you Bon Jovi reference, and you're that part of the world. I'm not going to be Bon Jovi, but I can still write a song, I can still find a little coffee house open mic, and I can play it for people, right? But you just can't make a film. Okay? You can grab your iPhone, of course, you I'm not saying you can do that, but do you know what I mean, an actual full length feature film. You just can't do it. There's a million hurdles. There's all these people, I don't know. I just think it's just such a such an undertaking to go down that road that I just support anybody. Man, like, just awesome. Hell, it's great. How can I help you? You know, what do you need? Because you're about to go to war, like you are about to go to war, and it doesn't end in the filming. You know, here I am two two years later, finally releasing the thing and the distribution you're dealing with, and doing the premiere and and doing the press, and you're all do, I mean, dude, I mean, I'm just again. You are talking to me at a time where my head's spinning. So you're probably getting a very emotional version of me. If we talk in three months, we could probably have a very relaxed So, Chris, how did it happen? Whoa, Dave, this happened, you know, but I'm in the midst of, like, ah and, but it's an exciting ah, and I asked for this, and I'm pumped up and, and we're proud of it too, man, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a big life goal and a huge accomplishment, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:04:57
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Chris. And, you know. I mean, I've been there before, too, and I completely understand where you're coming from, dude. And honestly, Chris, you should be proud of the bet movie. And now you're gonna, you're probably at that phase where you know you at the end, you're, you're probably, you know, you're drained, you've given everything you can, and you're like, you know what, I've made one movie. That's it. Goodbye. And then about a month or two letter. You're like, Man, I should maybe make a note.

Chris Jay 1:05:23
It's funny. You say that, Dave, um, while we were waiting for uh, post production to happen, and we're kind of had the post production blues, right? And trying to find some more money, right? What we did is, uh, we wrote another script, Aaron, and I learned so much. We said, let's take this education. Let's write another one man and and, you know, it's so funny. You know, you always you get better. But we had so much on set experience in this whole process, I kind of feel like we went to film school without going to film school, right? And, and I'm sure film school people be like idiot. No, you didn't. No, it's true. I don't know the difference between this brand of camera this brand of camera, right? But, um, we wrote this next script, and we're very excited about it. We actually want to shoot it next year in South Jersey, in your neck of the woods, and it was so cool because we got to write a script, knowing what it's like to make a movie. Now we know what we need. Now we know too. Can't write that scene that's ridiculous. It'll get cut. So it got to be very focused. And that's just the education that comes with time that guys like you have. But it was very exciting to put that into play, and if this movie does well, you know, your hope is that it opens the door for another executive producer, or the same executive producers, or just more connections in the business to back this and get behind another one. But I definitely learned we need more money if we want to take make the type of movie we made, we're not going to be able to do it on that budget again. We're going to need to find a couple more bucks. You got to move up the ladder a little bit, right? You can't, you can't go in the opposite direction.

Dave Bullis 1:06:45
Oh, yeah. It's just like what Dov Simon says, you know, you may. You get to make a $20,000 movie, then you make a $50,000 movie, then you make 100 some odd 1000 and then all of a sudden you're making million dollar movies. You know what I mean? I think, actually, I think he starts off with, in his paradigm, you make, you make a movie for nothing, literally, it's just your friends, whatever. And then you, you have to make a movie for like, 10 grand or five grand, and then you move up, you know, sporadically, but, yeah, but I know exactly where you're coming from, because that's what I mean. That's what I've always said too, is, you know, people ask me about making stuff and why haven't made anything like four or five years? And my answer is, is, because I'm an idiot, and I write things and I go, Holy shit, I would never be able to even using all my methods I talk about in this podcast, even having all the people who've talked to me and saying, like, what do you have access to? What can you make today with it, with all you have access to, I end up writing stuff that that. I'm like, Dude, I look at one effect, and I'm like, this thing would cost 50 grand, or I look at this, this would cause, you know, I mean, I mean, but then again, Chris, you know, I don't know if you, I don't know if you ever listen to this other couple of podcasts, but, I mean, I'm the guy who was able to get a live working tank and also able to get fake police cars to destroy, and we stand, and it wasn't That. Wasn't, you know, we couldn't make it because, not because we couldn't find the tank and the police cars to destroy, but because me and the director couldn't get along. So it was a very odd,

Chris Jay 1:08:11
I love it, so therefore your biography should be, I found the tank once the Dave Bullis story, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:08:17
Yeah, yeah. And I actually, because I have a friend of mine, who's a mechanic. He he has a contract with police. The police department had all the old police parts. We were going to doctor up all these old Junkers to look like police cars from just one side, and then run a tank over them. And we had, and I got everything all squared away. And, I mean, the director connected.

Chris Jay 1:08:37
Wow, that's crazy, do you but, but now he's in tank. No, you found a tank. That's the important thing. You know? Yep, I he's my tank guy. From now on, this guy, I love it. Hey, at least you have a tank guy. A lot of people don't have that.

Dave Bullis 1:08:49
I love it. I got two things going for me. I had a pro wrestling match, and I have a tank guy. So that's it.

Chris Jay 1:08:55
I think for most people, that's enough. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you know, even on your tombstone, like your lies. Dave bolas, he had one pro wrestling match, and one time he found a tank. I mean, everybody's gonna take a picture of that tombstone. That's gonna be plastic.

Dave Bullis 1:09:10
As I'm buried in a What is it, the piano crate. But I just become like Marlon Brando. I just eat myself into like an early grave. Worse. We just took a very dark turn there. But, but, but, Chris, I wanted to ask, Where can people find the bet movie?

Chris Jay 1:09:29
Yeah, absolutely. So the bet as of right now, is officially out. I think it's actually comes out today, on the day of airing from July 26 on, it is on, shouldn't be, should be on all VOD outlets, like time, Warner's movies on demand, Comcast movies on demand. You know, DirecTV movies on demand. And, of course, iTunes, that's kind of the de facto place, and that's probably the first place I would send somebody to look for it on iTunes. But it'll also be available for ran on Xbox this. PlayStation, Fandango, now voodoo. So basically all the digital outlets, the VOD outlets, and then we'll be doing a DVD at the end of August, and then, God willing, fingers crossed conversation for another time we land on Netflix or Hulu Hulu with the streaming deal. So that's the plan. But right now, if you want to see this movie, if you like comedy, if you like silly movies, if you like professional wrestling, if you just want to see what a bunch of psychotic, ambitious dudes made on a small budget, you know, check it out this. This one came from the heart man. It's a silly movie. It's a wild movie. It's a wacky movie. It's certainly not for everybody. It's not high brow, um, Dave. But, you know, in a weird way, it came from all the right places. You know, it came from good people that worked really hard against a lot of odds. And, you know, I think, as any indie filmmaker, regardless of the content, it's the type of movie you want to download, buy it once, and support it because, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to the struggle. Man, you know, it is real, and it's always cool. When somebody cracks through and gets it out there, we'll see what happens. Man, I don't know what's going to happen, but it's exciting. It's exciting to find out, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:11:19
Yeah, and by the way, I meant to mention, this is Roddy Roddy Piper's last movie, right?

Chris Jay 1:11:23
Yes, it's a final appearance of Roddy Roddy Piper. He has a cameo in the film. So it is small, but that was one of the great joys of my life, was having Roddy Piper in my own house hanging out. We got to spend a wonderful day together. We really bonded. We actually became friends from the whole project and kept in touch. So, you know when, we lost him, that was, you know, it kind of affected me a little bit. It was strange to have made friends with a hero like that, and then worked with him on this, and started to talk to him about other projects, and just as quickly as he came in my life, he left. But it's a real honor to me if the only thing that this movie becomes known for, historically, that's a stretch of a word, but is, if it's known, oh, that was that last movie that Roddy popped in for a couple minutes. Fine by me, man, fine by me. I'm honored to be the guy that made Roddy Piper's last movie.

Dave Bullis 1:12:12
Yeah. And honestly, even if I, if I didn't know you, Chris, I honestly, I would have actually bought the movie just to see his last performance. I was, you know, being a wrestling fan. I'm a huge Piper fan as well, and that, I think that is so freaking cool. So it'll be all say, on your, on your, you know, on your eulogy, that can say, Hey, Chris, you know, Chris J he, he was able to hang out with rowdy Piper, and he made the bet move.

Chris Jay 1:12:35
Yeah, there you go. That's it, man, that's, that's all I got going for me. And of course, if anybody's listening. If they want to follow us online, you can go to the bet movie 20 sixteen.com From there, you can connect to our Facebook, our Twitter, our Instagram. We're trying to have fun with the marketing day. We're really trying to get a little cult buzz on this. It's for comedy fans. It's for wrestling fans. We got some talented people in it, man. You know our two lead actors, Amanda Clayton, is going to be in a Martin Scorsese movie at the end of the year. She's on a Tyler Perry show right now, our lead actor has a small role in Guardians of the Galaxy two so you're going to see some faces in here that I truly believe in my heart. In the next year or two, you're going to see a lot more of and I think we just took casting so seriously that, you know, hopefully it's one of those films that gains momentum as it goes to Netflix. As people see it, they're like, Hey, man, I saw this movie, and it's kind of wild, but it's actually funny. I like to think it's kind of, I don't know, you know, I think it's a funny movie. You don't make a comedy to not make people laugh, and that was our goal.

Dave Bullis 1:13:33
You know, I'm glad you actually brought that up. If you have the time. I had some fan questions coming through Twitter. Yeah, sure. Okay, so one of them, it actually is, if there was one thing that you wanted the audience to take away from your film, what would that be?

Chris Jay 1:13:49
Somebody's got to write dick and fart jokes. Why not me?

Dave Bullis 1:13:56
The second question is, what cameras did you shoot on? And did you shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:03
We shot on an Alexa, which we were very lucky to get. So it looks awesome. And then we did one or two pickup shots with a red that was attached to a drone, and the guy that let us use it basically ran around and followed it underneath in terror, because he was ready to catch it if it fell.

Dave Bullis 1:14:22
And so you shot, you didn't shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:23
You know? I mean, that's how not technical I am. I'm being completely blunt with you, Dave, I'm not sure. I just know that we had the Alexa camera that everybody was super excited, and it looked great, especially when we put that color on. It's like, Man, this looks like a real movie, quote, unquote,

Dave Bullis 1:14:40
You know, it's, uh, by the way, as you, you know, go through this wonderful world of filmmaking, by the way, that's the number one question you will always ask from now, every time you make a film, every other filmmaker is going to ask you this question, what did you shoot it on? What did you shoot it on? Okay, yep, that that will be the de facto question. And, you know, they're a filmmaker, because non. Filmmaking people don't give two flying fucks. What you shoot on they you could shoot it on a cardboard box. No, you're gonna say, Hey, I shot it with my iPhone. Oh, that's cool. What they're every filmmaking person is gonna say, Hey, would you shoot that?

Chris Jay 1:15:11
Okay, okay, I just sent a text to find out so in the future, I won't look like a goob.

Dave Bullis 1:15:16
It's cool, man, believe me, man, I you know, it's all good with me, you know? Because every time that I've every film, if you go to a film festival, a film networking thing, and you show a film, would you shoot that on Okay, would you shoot that? That's everybody. Everyone loves to ask that question, but, but, but I just that's how I can tell if you're a film, if you're in the industry or not, because non industry people won't even mention it,

Dave Bullis 1:15:39
But, but, but, yeah, Chris, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And I want to ask where people find you out online,

Chris Jay 1:15:50
Yeah, if people want to see what I'm up to and all that fun stuff, the best place is probably on Twitter, and it's just at army of freshmen. That's the name of the band, and that's where I kind of put my all my personal stuff, you know? And I got the text message, so I'm a professional filmmaker now, Dave, you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Ready. Ready, ready. It said we shot on an Alexa camera. And it said that the time Alexa didn't shoot four, we shot on a two, does that? Okay? So 2k? 2k. Okay, that's what I want to say. And Alexa, 2k. Okay, good. Is that a good thing, Gabe, or bad thing?

Dave Bullis 1:16:32
That's fun, honestly, man, you know, that's the most

Chris Jay 1:16:35
Should have hung up on me. That would be a great end of this conversation. What a fuck!

Dave Bullis 1:16:40
That's I end up most conversations. What a fun but, but basically, you know, everyone only has 1080 1080 monitors, TVs, tablets, phones. So, I mean, you know this whole thing about shooting 248, you know, it's, I don't know if it matters at the end of the day, I, you know, I think it's a great thing, honestly, if you shoot, I think we're ways away from shooting everyone shooting in 4k and being able to enjoy in 4k as well, because you have to crush all this stuff anyway. So my answer is, yeah, I think that's great, man.

Chris Jay 1:17:11
Okay, good, good, good, good. I can't wait for you to see it, man. I really mean that out of everybody that I've been talking to, publicity wise, I think you'll have a neat perspective, number one, because you like wrestling in all honesty, and you'll probably understand how it's hard to work with wrestlers and but you'll understand the comedy of it. And number two, you're a film guy, you know. Number three, you're from Philly. And number four, you didn't laugh at me when I didn't know what camera it was shot on. So these, you know, you're the type of guy that needs to see this film.

Dave Bullis 1:17:36
You know, I'm gonna put all my PJs. I'm gonna fire up the old Xbox, I'm gonna check it out.

Chris Jay 1:17:41
Go, go, go. Awesome. David. And thank you so much for your time, dude. And again, I do listen to the podcast, and I always enjoy your conversations. I like how you have a lot of variety of people on the show. You're not like, kind of one of those conceited podcasts that kind of just rip on people and, you know, they just kind of make it sort of, I don't know, it's kind of seems like bitter dudes that don't make movies that want to rip on people that do that's not you. You're always so supportive to your guests, and I always learn something. So I am a fan. Man, it was a real pleasure talking to you.

Dave Bullis 1:18:07
Oh no, I appreciate that, Chris, like I said in the pre interview, man, I you know, I always try to stay positive. You know, I always want to make this a place of positivity and have as many interesting, diverse people on as I can. But having said that, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, Chris, and I really do wish you the best with a bet movie. I am going to be checking it out Tuesday, July the 26th it is released on all of the of the channels that Chris was talking about. But Chris, honestly, man, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I'm going to make sure to check out the bet movie.

Chris Jay 1:18:40
Cool. My pleasure, Dave, you take care. And thanks everybody for listening. Really does mean a lot. Please check out the film and say hi. Let us know what you thought. Awesome. Take care. Okay, take care brother!

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BPS 454: What Really Happens After You Write the Script with Michael K. Snyder

January 15, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we dive deep into the long game of screenwriting and career-building with Michael K. Snyder, a writer and producer whose journey is a masterclass in patience, preparation, and persistence. Michael’s story isn’t about overnight success or viral moments—it’s about understanding how the industry actually works and learning how to navigate it without losing your creative voice. From film school to studio meetings, his path reveals what happens after the script is written, when development, relationships, and timing become everything.

Michael began his career at Full Sail University, later earning a master’s degree before making the leap to Los Angeles. Unlike many aspiring writers, he didn’t move west blindly. He arrived with a plan, a growing network, and a willingness to work his way up. One of his earliest breakthroughs came from reaching out directly to Lloyd Kaufman of Troma—an act that taught him a crucial lesson early on: opportunities are rarely handed out, but they often appear when you’re willing to ask professionally and follow through. That mindset became the foundation of his career.

Once in Los Angeles, Michael balanced day jobs with constant writing, producing short films whenever possible. Access to a massive warehouse space allowed him and fellow filmmakers to shoot projects on their own terms, building real credits instead of waiting for permission. During this time, he continued developing feature scripts and pilots, understanding that every script serves a purpose—even if it never gets made. Some are calling cards. Others are doors to conversations that lead somewhere unexpected.

That philosophy paid off when a script he shared online attracted a manager’s attention. While the majority of feedback was harsh and dismissive, one email changed everything. Instead of focusing on the negativity, Michael leaned into the opportunity, turning that script into a relationship that opened doors across town. Meetings followed—not because the script was guaranteed to sell, but because it demonstrated voice, ambition, and storytelling instinct. In Hollywood, that’s often enough to get you in the room.

Michael’s experience highlights a critical truth about development: selling a script is rarely the goal. Selling yourself as a writer who understands story, character, and collaboration is what matters most. He explains how development can stretch for months or even years, involving outlines, treatments, rewrites, and constant conversations with producers. It’s not glamorous, and it’s rarely fast—but it’s where careers are built.

One of the most fascinating parts of Michael’s journey is his work adapting existing material. From pitching large-scale biographical projects to developing treatments for iconic properties, he learned how executives evaluate writers not just on originality, but on how they handle legacy, tone, and character. Adaptation, he explains, is about honoring the heart of a story while making it relevant for a modern audience—a skill that has become increasingly valuable in today’s IP-driven marketplace.

At its core, Michael K. Snyder’s story is about loving the process. He emphasizes that if you don’t enjoy development, collaboration, and long stretches of uncertainty, this industry will wear you down. But if you can learn to embrace the grind—rewriting, networking, pitching, and waiting—you give yourself a real chance to succeed. His journey is proof that careers aren’t built on single moments, but on years of showing up, doing the work, and staying ready when opportunity finally knocks.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:46
My next guest is a graduate of Full Sail University's film and entertainment business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films Inc, he's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy has done so many crazy, awesome things, and we're gonna get into all that, and we're gonna talk a lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go out to LA without a plan, without knowing anybody. He actually had a plan in place. And he's doing such some really awesome things. And why don't we just go right into it with guest Michael K Snyder, Mike, you were the app. You were the guest on the first ever episode. The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes. The first three are considered the Lost episodes. You were number one. You were my first guest, and it's so good three years later to have you actually back on so Mike, again, I want to say thank you very much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've come full circle now, all the way back from three years ago,

Michael K. Snyder 2:51
Man, I'm so happy to be back on the show. You know it is, it is. It's kind of funny that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right. And just thinking about some of the progressions that we've both made in our careers and how things have changed. It's just really interesting,

Dave Bullis 3:08
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when I, when we lasted the interview again, it was, it was remotely like we're doing right now, but I was in a actual studio doing it, and I had nothing but problems there. And now I'm doing it from my my office, and I, you know, it's just 10,000 times better. Because I remember when we had the episode and I listened to it, and I was like, What the hell happened here? And it was, that freaking recorder was not, would never work, right? So I the first two episodes, I use that recorder in this really awesome radio station with soundproof and then all of a sudden, now it's like, you know, I mean, it just even technology, how it's improved in three freaking years. Is unbelievable, crazy. Yeah, it is unbelievable. So, you know, Mike, since that episode is a little lost, actually, it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost. You know, I want to dig a little into your background, for those of you, for those listeners who aren't really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done. So, you know, you were actually a graduate of Full Sail University. You graduated in what, 2010?

Michael K. Snyder 4:05
Um, oh, man. I graduated full sales film program in 2010-2011 and then I graduated their master's program couple years after that, so I moved out to LA, and about 2014 2015

Dave Bullis 4:27
Okay, so then, see, again, I just found out. I didn't even know you graduated from the masters program. So see, I'm finding out, yeah, so, so you move out to LA. Now we actually met through, through trauma, through Lloyd Kaufman, and, you know, while, and that was while you were actually at Full Sail. So when you were at full sail, do you think you know that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't have had anywhere else? So sort of like to work a lot of these different movies.

Michael K. Snyder 4:56
I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, film. School in general matters, as much as a lot of people want to say, it does, I think you know, given what I know now, if I could go back, I probably would have tried to work a little bit harder in high school and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know, it's really all about your network. And if you can get in out here a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier to meet executives or meet agents or meet managers or producers, because a lot of them are going to be in the same class as you whereas, if you're you know, in Florida, and you go into a school that anybody you know is pretty much paying to go to because it's private, it's it's just not the same pool of resources. That's not to say that they didn't help me get jobs out here and introducing to a lot of people, but I would say that a lot of what I would consider to be my own success is just based on me reaching out to people myself.

Dave Bullis 5:54
You know, there's an old saying, your net worth is your I'm sorry, Your network is your net worth. And that's 100% true. It really is. My honest to God, even, even if you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding, obviously, and you go out and you're like, Well, hey, I need people to invest in this project. Or if you're doing something like even this podcast, or even doing something like releasing a film, if you don't have a network built up, you really don't have any way to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it as you're doing it, which is, was just like shooting yourself in the foot. That's absolutely right. So, so when, when you say you should, you wish you had applied yourself in high school. You go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike, I trust me. Man, I feel you. I did the same thing in high school. Man, I honestly, and when senior year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything. That's right, I literally, man, like, my teachers were like, Dave, you know, you don't apply yourself anymore. And I'm like, I don't care. I just want to get the hell out of here.

Michael K. Snyder 6:56
Exactly. That's how I was. I was, I was, I was like that before my I was like, that might be eighth grade. So, you know, yeah, I went to two different high schools, and I, you know, the funny part is, when I was a junior in high school, I cook in English. I was in an English Honors class because I finally had a teacher who kind of convinced me to apply myself writing. And she actually did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach out to a professional in your fields, or where you wanted to go into the career you wanted to go into. So I was like, Well, shit, man, I want to be a, you know, writer, director. I mean, Spielberg is not gonna return my calls. You know, I can't really reach out to Scorsese. So who can I reach out to? And that's actually how I met Boyd with Troma and started working, like the conventions in Florida with him, which is just really funny. And I think that was a moment where I my mind kind of opened up a little bit, where it was like, Okay, maybe you should just focus on this and focus on filmmaking, writing and your network. So when I went to high school, I mean, obviously in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not like a there's not even like a film history class, but like a film theory, like elective, it's all just the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there was no way for me to apply myself in the career that I really wanted to except for in this one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's something to say about the arts programs and schools with that, because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know, taken that course and made that decision. And I wish there was more of those types of opportunities for people, you know, and students,

Dave Bullis 8:33
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there than just sort of like, you know, you know, options A, B and C. That's right, so, and you know, that's something to that, you know, even when I was in high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all these freaking movies. We would go to, like, all the local video stores. You know, most people who listen to this podcast know what, what those were like, the blockbuster Hollywood videos. Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then, but, but, you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd go out, and every Friday, Saturday night, or whatever, we'd go out, we we'd just be watching all sorts of different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I could make a, you know, I could do this for a living. I just figured that, though everyone who wrote and made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges by like, the president united states or some crap, you know,

Michael K. Snyder 9:24
Right, right, exactly. It's like, it's the unattainable goal. It's out there. But you have no what, you have no idea how to, you know, map your road success in that field, there's, there weren't a lot of resources, you know. And it's crazy. It was literally like, you go and you watch movies and you think, you know, I remember when I was 10 years old, I was watching close encounters, and I like, this is great, you know? And it was the first time my parents ever were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie. And it was like a light bulb went off in my brain, like somebody writes movies, you know, it's the craziest thing. But now I think there's a lot, there's a few more resources just years later, and not that many years, but there really weren't when I was in high school,

Dave Bullis 10:14
Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have to go to college, you have to do this stuff. And when I went to it, you know, and when I went to college, I didn't know, I didn't know any exactly what I wanted to major in. And, you know, I bounced around from major to major, but I was always, you know, in my spare time, I was practicing writing. And I actually met the first book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called the screenwriters Bible by David Trottier. And and I bought that, and that just sort of like opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know, getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how they wrote that stuff, and how I do it. I'll still do it, but, but then you start to realize, oh my god, there are people out there who actually make movies. And I actually, and if that, I guess maybe it was, like, 2006 or seven. I actually, really got into it. And I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on, on, on MySpace. Remember MySpace Mike?

Michael K. Snyder 11:08
Yeah. Man, yeah. Unfortunately, I do. I think mine's like, like, I think I went, went to great lengths to delete mine.

Dave Bullis 11:20
I mine was actually deleted for me. I got a notice one day. They were like, we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours is one of them. And I said, Honestly, burn that guy to that burn that thing to the ground.

Michael K. Snyder 11:33
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.

Dave Bullis 11:40
It's so true. It's a It's, I have a friend of mine who still has, or he had one, and I was like, my god man, I go, that's like a something from your childhood. That's like an embarrassing moment. You're just like, Please never bring that up again. But, but, you know, I actually, I actually met him from filmmakers through my space and and some of these guys were actually in, like Jersey and New York and, you know, I never really put two and two together that there's, there was a lot more. There wasn't, well, there was a lot more in the in the whole bigger area. I don't want to say PA, because there really wasn't that many in PA at that time, but, but like New York and jersey, there was a few people. Most didn't respond back, because most were looking for, like producers that could fund and give them money, some actually money, right, exactly. And most actually did, though, you know, come back and say, Okay, here's what you can do. And then I just, you know, went from there, but, but you know what I'm trying to say with all this is, it's similar to what you did with Lloyd, and you reached out to him and said, You know, I can, I should see how I could actually work with this guy. And you made an opportunity for yourself.

Michael K. Snyder 12:46
Yeah. I mean, I took a class assignment, and I reached out on my shop an email. I was like, hey, I want to do an interview with you over the phone, you know, and just talk about your career and how you've made something out of nothing and continue to do so, and he responded back with a cell phone number, and that was, that was it. And then it was just really up to me to keep him pinned down and stay on top of them as much as possible. You know, whenever he was in town, or I went to New York and that saw him, you know, and different things, it was, it was just to keep, to keep the relationship alive,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, now with technology, we're able to actually, you know, keep in contact with people a lot better, and so, and also it's a double edged sword, because then you're getting too much contact with with every at once, right? But, you know, but you made an opportunity, you reached out, even was for a class or and you made sure to make a contact. And I think that's so important. And I think, and also, you did the professional way. I mean, I just had Whitney Davis in the podcast for the second time, and we talked about networking the right way. And, you know, the first time that you, you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something, right? No, totally. And, and, you know, you, you actually were offering something for Lloyd, and he took you up on that. And then again, now, you know? And here we are all these years later, because I and because, when you, when you were on that trauma film, we met through that, because that's when I met Lloyd, and then we started talking. And then I think, yeah, yeah, that's how we met. And then then there's it, you know, I've met a few other people through it, Lloyd. And, you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films. He's a connector man.

Michael K. Snyder 14:26
I mean, he's the great connector, you know. I mean, he just, if he's able to put you on the phone or in the room with somebody that you want to be on the phone or in the room with, He'll do whatever he can to be the one to do it. Who does it, you know? And and then he'll take all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves.

Dave Bullis 14:44
Yeah, and I remember reading his, his independent film book, and it was just absolutely hilarious. And I was like, See, he's, he's making independent film feel fun. It's not taken too seriously. And, you know his and when he was on the pub. Podcast, he he said he found a trauma in prison with Michael Hertz, and he was Michael Hertz's bitch, and they found a trauma in prison. And I'm like, wow. And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to him, I go, Lloyd. Do you ever think that someone's gonna listen to this for the first time, not hearing of hewer Troma? And think, Wow, that guy really started a movie business in prison.

Michael K. Snyder 15:24
Like, I hope so, you know, it's not far from the truth.

Dave Bullis 15:29
You know, Yeah, seriously, you know, I've and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector. He's always connecting, you know, different people. And, you know, again, because he connected us and, and I, I've been on different film sets multiple times. And you so, you know, after you got off, this, you know, just to continue your story, after you got off, you know, the working on trauma, and, you know, you sort of, you went back to full sail. You know, at what point did you want to, did you realize that you wanted to go back for your for a Master's at full sail,

Michael K. Snyder 16:01
At the beginning, just because it was kind of part of the deal with my parents, and just the way that they structured their programs, it was like, if you it was like they had a deal, like it was like a Bogo, like, if you buy one degree, you know, we can give you The second degree at a certain cost that was 1000s of dollars less than it would have been had you decided to do it later. Because every so many years, they restructure their programs and they change the cost. So it just happened to be that when we sat down with a representative of wholesale, they were just, they're like, now if you want to take the master's program in business, you know, we can, we can, we can go ahead and lump it in with the film program, and it'll end up costing you less money later on. And, you know, it was like a was like, no time. You know, it was so quick, because it's such an accelerated program, that my parents were like, he might as well. And, I mean, at that point, it was kind of whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it more for them. I think I kind of knew that I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but, you know, to keep everything cool at home and to put a diploma on the wall. I was like, yeah, we'll go and do that.

Dave Bullis 17:09
And, you know, again, it's good that you had a plan, because honestly, like, you can become like me, and, you know, obviously have no plan and just kind of figure your way out, but, but, no, it's good the unit, but

Michael K. Snyder 17:22
It's tough, man. There's not really a plan out there. You know, it's like, you just have to figure it out. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this. I think I you just have to, you have to do it. You have to just set goals and hit those goals. And those goals can be anything, as long as you know that at the end of that list there's some sort of success. And whatever that success is, and that be monetary success, it could just be moving to Los Angeles, or moving to New York, or getting a show, a gig, on a show, or anything, you know, there's not really, there's not really a way to teach this.

Dave Bullis 17:53
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA, and that's actually when I want to ask next is, you know, yeah, so you got the Masters, and then you moved out to LA I think you said 2014 is when you move down.

Michael K. Snyder 18:04
It was, yeah, I mean, I'm horrible with dates, so I'm probably butchering it, but let's just say that. And basically what happened is, after I was done with the film program and I went to the Masters, all of my film school friends had already moved out to Los Angeles, so by the time I was done, you know, I had couches to sleep on, which is really key when you're moving from, you know, Podunk, Florida to one of the most expensive cities in the nation, it's nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And so I hooked up with the Career Development Program at full sail, and they got me an internship out here. And I called one of my friends, and he was like, Man, you can come out here. You can sleep on my couch for as long as you want or need to. You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything with your internship. Just Just get out here. Like, that's all we want. We just want you out here. So I flew out and moved in with him and started my internship. And it was interesting. I was running a 10,000 square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles for more Tierney and Anthony Reva var and Sean wing and a few other actors, and Nathan Heaney, who's a great director of photography now, and they, basically, they pulled their resources. They rented this massive warehouse, right? And it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids to run it, so there was one other guy who was managing it, and I interned there. And after a couple months, they hired me on as his like assistant. And then after a couple months, I got his job. So I ended up doing that for a couple years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacy share, who everyone knows is Tarantino's producing partner, or was and her husband, Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend, and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man, and it was a lot of fun, and I got to meet a lot of really great people my first couple years out here, which is always nice.

Dave Bullis 20:11
Yeah, and you mentioned having couches to sleep on, that was actually one of my questions. Because having that network, since everyone already moved out there, you know, and having those couches to sleep on and places to crash and, you know, key, yeah, exactly it is key. And again, our your network is your net worth. And again, you you're able to actually, you know, go out there and not just be like, Alright, so what next? I mean, I've had friends Mike, who've gone out to LA and sort of been like, with, with no plan, and been like, Okay, what next? It's like, well, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer if you do that. Yeah, you're gonna really, really, reality is gonna hit you very fast,

Michael K. Snyder 20:51
Totally.

Dave Bullis 20:53
So you now, you mentioned you got the, you know, the warehouse job. Now, at this point, were you always writing scripts. And did you maybe have a few scripts to show to different like, maybe producers or agencies?

Michael K. Snyder 21:06
Yeah. I mean, I started writing screenplays when I was probably 11 years old, pen and paper. Then I figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out, you know, you could get keltics and all these freeware. Then I found out that there was all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So I was always putting material out there. I mean, I was just pushing short films and short stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I could just to get reads and get comments, because that's, you know, structure is key from from that point of view. So by the time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features kind of under my belt, and I had one in particular that I was, I think, the most proud of, and working on the hardest. And basically I started reaching out to people. And while I was out here for those first couple of years, I was also producing short films, because I had this awesome 10,000 square foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then it would just be sitting there the other half of the year. So I would get my buddies who had RED cameras and lenses and all these different things, and we would produce short films, and we write them and produce them. And I had two that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, you know, two different years. So I used that, and I used, like kind of my background, and I sent an email to Carson, who runs script shadow. Some people love him, some people hate him, whatever. And I attached a feature that I'd written that I was pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on his site for one of the, you know, independent hostings that he does. And I would say I got 100 emails from people that were basically, this sucks, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a dumb millennial. I mean literally that. And I got one email from somebody who ended up being my manager.

Dave Bullis 22:59
But, you know, am I going to ask you about the the manager email in a second, but I want to, before I do that, I want to ask you, why do you think you got so much hate mail? Do you think it was from a lot of well, no, I have my own theory about why you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams, and whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like a chance to sort of almost like, if I could throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm going to take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why do you think you got so much of those angry emails?

Michael K. Snyder 23:34
Yeah, I think it's a combination of that. And I think that, you know, I may have come off as a little little arrogant, because I was like, Look, you know, I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like, 25 24 25 years old. And I just could really benefit from hosting this script, yada yada yada. And I think it's a combination of people misreading my inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchair, you know, screenwriter reviewers, screen, screen. Screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and they're rewriting movies in their heads and on their sofa. But they're not actually out there hitting the pavement, and because of that inability to motivate themselves, they, they're haters.

Dave Bullis 24:16
Yeah, it's that. That's what I think, is that they, they're very angry. They're very, you know, a lot of the lot of people in this business, there's a lot of awesome people. And you and I talk about this, you know, because we talk a lot, and we talk about how sometimes this business is stereotyped as everyone is bitter, angry out to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people in this business, and there are, man, yeah, totally, and it's just and, but it's unfortunate, like situations like that where it's like, you really see the sort of dark side, where it's like, what the hell is this? There was actually a screenwriting group I used to be a part of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group, and I think it was, it was set to private or whatever, and I remember people would post in there, and. And they would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try to correct it, you know, and just not, not like, say, Okay, you're wrong, which is, say, hey, there's another way to do this. They would jump all over people. And finally, I said, Why the hell am I a part of this frickin group anymore? And it's

Michael K. Snyder 25:15
It can't all be negative, yeah, you know, it has to be. It has to be, there has to be optimism, because it's such a hard industry to break into, that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just gonna stop someone from potentially a cheating or dream.

Dave Bullis 25:31
And it's almost too like when you know, when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have people around you who are constantly just being like problem spotters and not problem solvers. You know, there's those, the type of people that you got to, like, jettison from the project as soon as possible.

Michael K. Snyder 25:47
Oh, totally, man. It's, it's, it's, you can boil it down to, you know, don't bring me the problem. Bring me the solution, really,

Dave Bullis 25:55
Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail around the head Mike and, you know, so, so as you sort of go back to talking about script shadow, you got one email that was from a manager who said, you know, I want to talk to you. So,

Michael K. Snyder 26:07
Yeah, it was like, I think you showed a lot of talent on the page. A little bit about me. He gave me his background, and he was like, let's, you know, let's grab some coffee. And he went and we got coffee. And I thought he was great. I was really knowledgeable nice guy, and, you know, I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at the end of the meeting, he was kind of like, all right, what do you want to do? And at this point, I had an idea of what I wanted my next project to be, and I had, I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably not going to get made. But if I could partner with the right person, I could get in front of the people who would potentially make it, and that would open all the other doors for me. And it was a script I wrote called The mouse Who Would Be King. And it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and created Mickey Mouse. And it ends with creation of Mickey Mouse, and I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking and all these different things. And so I told him that, and I was like, it's never gonna get made, but let's put it out there. Let's take meetings, and let's get into development, because, you know, we have time. We can do this now. And he kind of like, what does that mean? He was like, Alright, let's do it. And we shook hands, and we went from there.

Dave Bullis 27:22
So and then from there? Did you go start actually going to, like, all these different, like, pitch meetings and stuff?

Michael K. Snyder 27:27
Yeah. I mean, we beat out the story. You know, I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right? And we went to Disney World all the time. And at Disney World, they have an exhibit called one man stream, where you can go in, and it's like a Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit, and it was stolen from him, or, you know, he didn't really understand the full paradigms of his contract and universal. Owned it, and he put all this work into it, and he's like, I should own this, because I put all this work into it. And on a train ride back home to tell his team and his wife. He started coming up with Mickey Mouse, so I knew that that's what I wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my end scene. I had the idea of Walt Disney going on a train and having, like, this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse. And the way that I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we beat out the story, and we, you know, I read a bunch of books, and kind of just filled my manager's head with all this knowledge of Disney that he didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down. And he started sending, I send it to agencies, sends production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people. And then the real game began, and I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 28:57
So how long was it before, you know, you talked to the manager, you would beat it out. And before you got meetings, how long was that whole time period there?

Michael K. Snyder 29:04
Oh, man. I mean, I really knew the story, so I think it was kind of an easier development process, and it was just he and I. So there weren't a lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean, probably a six months, seven months, and then I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 29:21
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what were some of the what was some of the feedback that you were getting?

Michael K. Snyder 29:28
I, everyone loved the script. It was something where they were like, you know, we love the script, and we want to know what else you're working on, and if we can find something to work on together. And I started developing, like, I developed a TV show with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a TV show with image movers, which is Robertson Max's company, that didn't go anywhere. And I took that and I took that somewhere else and everything kind of led into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had, ended up giving me something else to work on, or they had something that i. Could fit into, or I showed some sort of interest in a project that they brought up in a meeting. And then, you know, that's really key, is you go in there. And of course, I'm nervous, you know? And I'm moved out here to do this, and I'm going to intermediate with these big guys, right? And they can be very intimidating, and the key is really to sell them on what your brand is and what your personal story is. And if you can do that, they're going to try and find something that they have that almost feels like a perfect fit for you, and then you'd have to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere, but they led to other conversations and other development things and and other specs that led to where I am today.

Dave Bullis 31:00
So you use that Mickey Mouse script, and that, that sort of became like a calling card script to get your story, yeah, to get your foot in the door. And they were saying, you know, did they say to you, Hey, Mike, we love, you know, the mouse would be king. What else do you have?

Michael K. Snyder 31:15
Yeah! I mean, there was a little bit of that. It was like, what else are you thinking about? Like, what else are you writing? And then, based on that, it was like, if I was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, Oh, well, we have this sci fi thing, or we are. We're looking at this book. What do you think about this book? Or, for instance, when I went to image movers, it was more so about the fact that I used to box, and I was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who had optioned all of FX tools short stories. And FX tool wrote Million Dollar Baby, right? So they had optioned all of them, except for Million Dollar Baby, because obviously Warner's had that. And they were like, Would you be interested in trying to build a TV show based on these short stories? And of course, you say yes. And then I started developing that. And when that fell through, I took all of the FX tool references out of what we had been working on, and I wrote a spec pilot, just without all those references that I filled it with my own personal experiences from boxing. And then that pilot became my TV calling card, and then we sent that out to everybody.

Dave Bullis 32:22
And so when you sent that out to everybody, did you sort of have like, a whole nother round of meetings with, like, the same, oh, yeah, management companies, or was it different?

Michael K. Snyder 32:30
It's kind of like a like an album. Like, you write an album, and then you go on a tour and you do all these concerts. Like, that's kind of how I look at it. You write a script, you give it to some of your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody. And then people finally get back home and they want to meet with you. And then you go on a tour, you know, and you're basically going to all these different generals and all these different meetings and and hoping that something turns into something else, you know, I never feel like the specific project that I'm going in with is going to sell. You know, I'm not there to sell that project. I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as a writer and to get on something either they already have, or just open that line of communication where I can pitch them something later on.

Dave Bullis 33:16
And so when you know you're building relationships, relationships, so now that's it, yeah. And so now they know when you come to the door, like, oh, you know, there's Michael K Snyder. He's, he's guy was, so, you know, brought the whole Disney project, and he's done this, and, you know, so, and you, you know, you so they're sort of, you're building a good reputation for yourself,

Michael K. Snyder 33:34
Yeah, because this whole town is relationships. That's really all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years ago, and was a, you know, creative exec somewhere is now, you know, VP production at a studio, right? And I can go to them and be like, you know, just just by just because I've kept in contact with all these people throughout the years, and then they move up and they change, and their mandates change, and you never know when you're going to have something that fits their mandate, yeah?

Dave Bullis 34:04
Because, you know, you know, tastes change, you know. And now everybody, I swear, I'm like, the number one question, and the number one thing I hear from doing this podcast is, you know, always have a TV pilot ready. Because now they all, they want something. Everybody wants something episodic now,

Michael K. Snyder 34:18
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch, and the specific networks who they have a deal with, or whoever they've worked with, has, you know, their mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch and then develop the pilot, because there's money. And then some producers are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out, you know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want to buy, but we just want to get the spec and then take that out. So it's really, you know, it's, everyone's different. Every network is different, every company is different,

Dave Bullis 34:49
Yeah, and you know, now, with everybody else getting into the game, like, you know, like Amazon, I mean, even, even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon, there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into the cut. Custom content game and, I mean, you just see all these, these different players now popping up, and all the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know, and then Hulu, and all your big, your big studios. So it's just, you know, now it's like, you have a lot of options as a writer.

Michael K. Snyder 35:16
That's right, yeah, you do. It's just, you know, getting into the conversation.

Dave Bullis 35:21
So as we talk about getting into the conversation, you know you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel for a very well known movie. And I know you can't talk too much about it, but you know, can you just tell you know, all the listeners about, you know what the treatment was that you pitched?

Michael K. Snyder 35:39
Yeah, totally. So basically what happened is, I'll go back and kind of preface it with another story. I was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend, about this SeaWorld orca trainer named John Hargrove, who worked at SeaWorld for 14 years and became like this elite killer whale trainer, and quit, and he wrote a memoir. So, I mean, of course, again, growing up in Orlando, I have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting on Shamu, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't want to see black fish. I don't want to know anything about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know. So she sent me this article, and I read it, and I read it, and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole that I just, I totally just jumped in. And I bought his book, and I read it overnight, and I started, like, as I'm reading the book, I'm like, highlighting scenes that I see in my head and different things. And he's the author, is just so interesting. His personal story so interesting, beyond the fact that he worked at SeaWorld, and the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach, and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him, was like, You got to cost my boyfriend. He's got a great idea. He knows how to turn your books to a movie. He can do it. We can do it together, you know, give him a call. So before he could call me, I had already, like, typed up a pitch. You know, why I should write this movie and and what my version of his story is, which was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and grow that emotional connection that he had with the killer whale, and so I sent him the email, called me the next day, and we talked for like four hours, and just became really good friends and and he was pretty much like, Alright, what do I sign? So from there, we wrote a 30 page treatment, and he took that and we pitched it all over town to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie's great, you know, this idea is great, but we need you to spec the script. So I spec that feature out, and then we sent that back, and it just it, just at that point, you know, this is a matter of a few months just to go back to what we're just talking about, those companies that already changed their mandate. And it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers, or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we don't think this fits that mandate, blah, blah, blah, so that's fine. So we sent that around and and I had met with an executive at Ellen pompios company calamity. Jane Ellen Pompeo is Meredith gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked about a couple projects, and she is a big anti Sea World person, so, you know, they only have a TV deal with ABC. They don't do any film. So I reached out to my manager. You know, on my my girlfriend is like, you need to, you need to send it over to them. And I'm like, well, they only have a TV deal. And she's like, Just do it. Just do it. Because the moral of my life and right now is my girlfriend, Rachel's always right, to be completely honest with you, and every time she told me that I need to do something, she's and I disagree with her, I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from so I've learned that the hard way, but she's always right. And so we sent it over to them, and they called and they were like, We love this. You know, we don't know how to do this, but we love this. We want to reach out to someone else to try and see if we can partner with them, because we don't make movies. And it just so happened that the person that they wanted to reach out to was Lawrence, who are donner, who, of course, is the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool, and she produced Free Willy, and she's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman, the yeoman, faithful weapon Goonies all that. And they're big anti captivity, anti fur, anti zoo, all that. So we went down the line with them, and they were interested. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that they felt they wanted to go down again, because they again, they produce Free Willy, and they got kind of attacked for that at a time, and they're like, we don't really want to do that again. So my manager went in, and he met with the head of their company, and he was like, Well, what else Mike, want to do? And my manager started talking to him about a couple of projects that I had that everyone considers to be Amblin in tone, as in Steven Spielberg's production company, of course. And he was like, well, we've wanted to do a Dooney two for a long time, and we've heard a lot of pitches, and we've gotten a lot of treatments from basically every writer in Hollywood, and nobody can get, you know dick and Steven and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel. What do you want to do that? And my manager is like, yeah, of course. He wants to do that. I mean, he kidding me, right? So I get a call and my manager, and he's like, What do you think about the Goonies? And I'm like, Are you serious? Like, of course I want to do this. I mean, of course I want to throw, you know, throw my card in it, and really try to throw in my hand. But it was quite the challenge. So we sat down and I watched the original movie a dozen times again and came up with a with an idea for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel. I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I force awakens the Goonies right?

Dave Bullis 41:17
Yeah. And I think again, because I don't know how, I don't want to go too in depth with it, but there is, there is one thing I want to say that it was, I think was awesome that you did it when this was, since, since will when I Willie's treasure was found, the town itself was basically had become, hey, nobody, it's not special anymore, because there's no more, there's no more treasure to find, right?

Michael K. Snyder 41:44
Totally, it's, how do you tell this story You know, 30 something years after the first movie took place, and it's also, you know, I love the Goonies, and everyone loves the Goonies, but it's a, it's a product of it, of the year it came out, right? And you really, it would be really hard to make that kind of movie today, because there's just constraints with the way budgets work, and just having an all kid cast and all these different things. So it was really, how do I, in a way, bring the magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's kids in the world of today's kids. And then how do I bring select members of the cast back and have them involved? So I don't know. I don't know if the movie will ever get made. I don't know if there'll ever be a new Goonies movie, because it's hard for everyone to agree on something. But, uh, you know, Dick has it and and he's reading it. I'm just waiting to hear back from him now.

Dave Bullis 42:43
Yeah, him now. So do you ever think, Mike, that you would ever maybe use this treatment as, sort of, like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like, you know, if you ever, they ever said, Hey, Mike, what else have you been working on? You'll say, Hey, I've worked on this goonish treatment for, you know, and as and I pitch it to Richard Donner. And, you know, would you ever, at any point, ever do something like that?

Michael K. Snyder 43:04
Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the Goonies. So when you bring that up, and if you know they want to, kind of know what the basis of the pitch is. And you know, without giving too much away, you give that to them, and then they can kind of see how your mind works when adapting other material, you know, source material, which is key right now, because that's what everyone's doing. And it's actually funny, because of the project that I'm most excited about and currently developing, that I can't really say the name of what it is and who the players are, but it's two veteran producers who made a lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that, you know, it was sort of a combination of beneath the surface, which is a sea world movie, that script, getting me in the door with them, and then me saying, you know, oh, by the way, right now I'm also writing a treatment and pitching a Goony sequel. And here's kind of how I'm doing and how I'm adapting it.

Dave Bullis 44:17
So, so, so as you know you're going to these pitch meetings, and as you are sort of working on things, you know, one of the things that you and I always talk about is development and, you know, sort of, yeah, and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of the things that you know you can sort of discuss about, you know, development, like, let's just say, for instance, let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say they, somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original spec script. They were to buy it. You know what? What are some of the things that happen in development?

Michael K. Snyder 44:47
It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of always felt, or still feel, that once you get to the point in your career where you're actually. Really meeting with the real producers, you know, not just the assistants or anything like that, but the actual people who can sign a check that everything just changes. But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right? So you climb up to the top of Everest only to realize that there's another like, you know, 600 miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall, and that that's how it feels. So I think, you know, when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're going to do one of two things, if it's a big spec, like, if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And that's partially to if it's a if it's a if it's a big studio, and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen brothers come in and they'll do a polish on all the dialog, and everyone will be happy to give us the money to make the movie. If it's a smaller, contained kind of genre film, like a 10 Cloverfield Lane or something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then, then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director who wants to come in and do a Polish as well. The other end of the coin is, when, in the situation I'm in now is I've had something pitched to me, you know. So I go in and I pitch five movies, and they want to make one of the movies I pitch, and then they also, but, you know, but first we want to do one of the ones that we're looking at with you, so they pitch me the movie. Then it's, you know, I got to look at the source material, which is a book. I got to figure out, how am I going to add my voice, or, you know, what's my style with this source material? And then it just begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm just still learning it as an as I go. Because one, every executive and producer is different, and two, it's just not something that anybody ever talks about in film school or anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's, it's very much like, okay, read the book and then give us an outline, right? That was the first thing. It's like, give us an online of how you would adapt it. So then I sit down and I write, you know, like a 10 12, page outline, and it's basically in prose. That's just how I write my outlines. And I send it over to them, and they're like, Okay, great. Well, come into the office and we'll talk about it. So go in the office. They tell me what they love, they tell me what they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it. Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true thing, you know, they categorize writers in two different categories, right? One is a writer who can write character, and the other is a writer who can write structure. And the key, I think, is to really understand character, because they can give you the structure, if you can come up with the characters, and you can come up with what the real story is behind everything, and why you need to tell this story, and why these characters are going through what they're going through, and not just, you know, by page 12, we're at the inciting incident and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, save the cat if you can come up with the characters, they are paid to kind of look at it like math and look at it like plotting. So they're going to look at what you give them, and they're going to say, Okay, so do you think this section of your outline is like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's for five pages, and then blah, blah, blah. And it helps you, it helps them to plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas you the writers, should be thinking about the characters. And when I look at a lot of movies and I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a complete structure and, you know, Stan or POV, and not from character. And I can see it when I watch the movies, and I can also see complacency, where it's like, you could have made that better, but you didn't, because of one of two things. One, you're getting a paycheck, and it doesn't matter, because you know, they're going to market a shit out of the movie, and millions and millions of people are going to see two because you're nervous. You're in the room with these guys. They have a bad idea, and you're afraid to tell them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod, go home and find out how to best tweak their ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to me, is what development is. It's this long process, six months to a year, where you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes that at the end of this process, they're either going to hire you to write the script or they're going to make a deal with you where you spec the script and then once the project gets funded, then you get paid.

Dave Bullis 49:45
Yeah! And, you know, there was an article, I think was in The Wall Street Journal about how, you know, why do so many of these, these big budget movies, feel the same? And that was the answer, was, they think that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure in there, because

Michael K. Snyder 50:09
It's all structure. Yeah, you. know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure, but you should be the story guy. The writer should be the story guy. The writer should be the person who makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters and the film or the TV series, the executives, the suits, the money people, they should be the structure, guys and girls. They should be the people who are looking at it from a plotting POV, so that when they call a director who comes in, they can beat out the acts with the director, and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math. Let them do the math, but you have to provide them with the numbers.

Dave Bullis 50:48
So, and, you know, I was talking to somebody about this too, was, you know, if you look at movies in from, like, the 70s and the 80s, you know, there's, there's all these, you know, really unique movies. And you sort of, as you sort of get to the sort of end of the 90s to now, you can see the big difference. And the big difference is it's almost like with now they want to sort of have creativity controlled, where they know sort of what they're they want to have it so it's almost like the project is handheld from all these steps. And they're sort of like, okay, you know. Now on page 17, this has to happen. PAGE 25 this has to happen. Stuff like that,

Michael K. Snyder 51:24
Right, right! Totally. It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever in my life. I've never I've read all these books and I've taken all these classes and I've and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached writing that way. I've always approached it as what is the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do I fit these characters and these themes into today's marketplace? That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry about what happens by page 30 or page 25 or page 60, not, at least until after I've written out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft, then I start to think, okay, how can I Whittle this down? You know, how can I get the action started earlier? But i The key is really to just do it, get it finished, and then you can always go back and correct it.

Dave Bullis 52:10
Yeah, it's like Tarantino, the Cohen brothers. They don't write, you know, by that either, you know, I know there's a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robert Regas, I know those don't, those guys don't write by the whole like, you know, hey, we have to have this happen by this page and stuff like that. And I think, you know, yeah, I think what had happened is, I think as you sort of try to crack this nut, so to speak, I think that's where you see guys like Sid field and Blake center with Save the cat. They sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write the somebody whoever script it is, how do they write this script and what do? All right, good. What are all the good things that they have in common? So these scripts that are, you know, the top one percentile, what are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And I think that then that's where all these systems come from, like, you know, and that's where all those books come from.

Michael K. Snyder 52:55
Yeah, it's hard to understand, and it's hard to read the books, and it's mark to kind of get what you know, the end goal is and understand the structure. But I just, I don't think anything should ever be approached with structure in mind first. I'm not saying you should have a first act that goes, you know, 80 pages, but I am saying that, you know, if you look at some of your favorite movies like you just said, they're not really going off of any structure they're going off of. What's the best way to tell this story?

Dave Bullis 53:25
Yeah, and I think also that, I think that's why independent film now is sort of having, you know, is sort of why, you know, crowdfunding and everything else, I think, is that becomes more popular. That's going to be where, you know, more people are going to say, you know, I could just crowdfund my movie for maybe 20,30, $40,000 and at least shoot it the way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to actually, you know, sell to an agency or whatever, right? Yeah.

Michael K. Snyder 53:50
And, I mean, you can, you can definitely do that. And there's definitely ways to monetize that and build a career off of that. I think my approach is, how can I get into the system and not change the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the system with with some of the bigger titles and and bigger films, and to not be complacent and just saying yes to everything, but to find the best way to tell the story. Because if you find the best way to tell a story, and you can pitch it to an executive or producer, and they know that what you're saying makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell you, no, they don't want to make a bad movie. Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have to be 10 steps ahead and be willing to tell them your idea.

Dave Bullis 54:40
Yeah, it's, that is, you know, key is sort of how to communicate, right? So, how do you communicate something without, actually, you know, nobody wants to say no, but, but you also can't say yes, so you have to communicate in a different way. And I remember,

Michael K. Snyder 54:55
Yeah, I mean, it's risk management, you know, you have to give them a way that they can tell their boss or tell their finance. Years, or tell the studio that they have a deal with you have to give it to them so that they can, they can express the idea or the story or the structure or whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to their bosses, right?

Dave Bullis 55:14
Yeah, exactly because that way, you know, obviously it's sort of, you know, that nobody wants to be the person that says no, because I was reading a book about this a few years ago, and they said, you know, if you don't want to tell you know, the next Vince Gilligan, no. And then, you know, if you, if you work for that, that that studio, and then all of a sudden, it's a hit, and then he comes back, says, hell, aren't you that person that said no to me, aren't you that guy? Holy, you're totally right. So, you know, and Mike, I just wanted to ask one. I have a few more final questions. I know we're starting to get out of time as I see the count. I didn't I realized this. This conversation flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking. So, you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are some of the top writing competitions out there right now for writers?

Michael K. Snyder 56:01
Oh, man. I mean, I think it all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to get some representation, then I think, you know, nickels is always great because it's such a well respected contest. I think that the tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot of people get reps based off of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know, put a little bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of the other ones, but you're going to get some money out of it. So I think it's really how you want to approach it. Do you want to build a career and get representation, or do you want to get, like, 40 G, you know, in the in the bank

Dave Bullis 56:42
And, you know, because I know you went through the, you know, script shadows website, and you were to, you know, I was just wondering, you know, because I know, again, as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the different opportunities out there. And, you know, that's, that's why I asked that question, just to see, because every time I turn around, there's a new writing competition opening up.

Michael K. Snyder 57:00
And, yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know? I mean, I don't, I'm not really familiar with them because I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I think blacklist is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations. I think, I think blacklist is, is still a very good asset. I like I said, I love the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great, and they have a lot of great managers and agents on their review boards that do judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities. And I know that from a genre POV, like, if you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script, there's tons of great genre contests, I don't that are offering cash prizes, or, you know, the opportunity to pitch a producer or, you know, producers are partnering with these contests. I don't. I just, I'm not well versed in their names and what they are exactly, but I agree that they're popping up every day,

Dave Bullis 57:52
Yeah, particularly the blood list that came out of nowhere. And when I heard about what that is, I was like, wow, that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way, for those listening, the blood list is, I realized I said it Mike. I was like, so the blood list is, the is a, is the ranking of the top horse unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this was put together by, I think, is it Kelly Marshak? Is her name, or Kelly March? I think so, yeah, it's, it's she actually put this together, and it's sort of like the blacklist, but for horror scripts. And, you know, I can

Michael K. Snyder 58:27
Horror is so underappreciated, man, and I was just having this conversation that is, like, some of the best directors come from our like, even someone like Spielberg, like, if you watch his action sequences, and like Jurassic Park, or some of his even the close encounters and et they're all tension and horror based, like it's all about building the anticipation for the scare or the reveal. And that's all classic horror filmmaking. And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially when you look at so many great directors who come from it.

Dave Bullis 58:59
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, field girl, all the people who started off with horror, and, you know, like, particularly, like guys like Sam Raimi, they sort of

Michael K. Snyder 59:08
Totally, I mean, look at his career, like, it's, it's, it's amazing. He has the career that anyone could dream for.

Dave Bullis 59:14
Yeah, he does. And, you know, he's a great guy, yeah, and he's been, you know, making all these great projects. And now, look, he's got the evil, dead TV series,

Michael K. Snyder 59:26
Exactly, and it's great, you know, he's doing great things with it. He's just, just launched Skydance television. He's got a whole new TV, you know, production company, and he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that is today's current TV market,

Dave Bullis 59:42
Yeah, and, you know, that's when, you know, you're over talking about episodic stuff. And that's something else too. Is again, because everyone, I swear, Mike, it's always about, you know, hey, feature films are great. But you know, do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that, like a TV pilot that could, you know, go on for 18 years, like, you know. But, but, yeah, no, totally, yeah. Yeah, and you know, that's, that's always something I'm too in the back burner that I've always been making sure I have is at least a couple, you know, TV pilots. And, yeah, exactly, you know, anything you know, just just making up, you know, just just in case, they actually say, you know, hey, you know, if what else do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared. And I also think, like, as we know, we talk about expectations and development and all and networking and all this stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't think you're ever really 100% prepared. You can just do what you can do. And if, and sooner or later, if you keep trying, you're going to be in the right place at the right time.

Michael K. Snyder 1:00:50
You got to love the process, you know? You got to love the process. You got to be willing to get a day job if you need some money. You got to be willing to sleep on a couch if you don't have a place to stay. You just got to love the process of hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to the ends of the earth, to meet all these producers and executives, and then hoping that you get into development. And then you have to learn to love the process of development, which is hard because there's not a lot of money in it. If there is any money at all. It's not a ton up front. So you have to really love the process and love what it how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend your case. You have to learn to love that. And if you can learn to fall in love with that, then the rest of it is cake.

Dave Bullis 1:01:40
Very well said, Mike, Mike, so we're just about out of time. And I agree, Mike, you have to love that process, and you're just in closing away. I just want to ask, you know, where people find you out online.

Michael K. Snyder 1:01:53
I'm always, you know, I'm on Facebook. Michael K Snyder, I'm on I'm on Twitter at MK Snyder 1990 I'm always looking people to reach out and connect, and if I can help, I'm more than happy to I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dave Bullis 1:02:12
Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my just my mental role decks, Mike, I think I might might have known you longer than anybody else. I don't know, though, there's two other people I've had on a podcast where I've known longer than you. So you're like, you're like number, you're like the third or fourth person in life, people I've known long. I love it, but because I just remember, there's a friend I had on here from middle school episode 1/5 with Chris per minute ago. And Chris actually teach your Chris actually was a producer on game over and he also actually now teaches film and TV production. And amazing. That was, that was a fun interview, and I'll give you this little snippet. It was just funny because he, he's like, I'm in. I'm teaching now. He's like, so he's like, Don't curse. Don't tell any weird stories before. And I'm like, Well, Jesus Christ, man, that's all I do is curse. If you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullis anymore. I All I do is Chris tell weird stories.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:06
That's awesome. That's your voice.

Dave Bullis 1:03:09
Love it. Yeah. Very, very true, Mike and Mike again, I want to say thank you so much. You and I have been friends for years. You know you're somebody whose opinion I really trust, and I really, I really just know that you were going to hit a huge, colossal Grand Slam soon enough.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:27
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And the feeling is mutual, my friend, you know, I think that, yeah, your opinion is one of the opinions I value more than many others. You know, I send you work before other people see it, because you're that guy, man, you have, you have great taste.

Dave Bullis 1:03:44
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody, make sure you go check out, Mike. Seriously, he this guy is always on the ball. He's always doing something really, really cool. So please go check out Mike. And Mike, anytime I'm gonna come back on, please let me know. I'd love to have you on, and I wish you the best of luck, man in everything.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:03
Thanks, man, I will. I'll take you on that

Dave Bullis 1:04:05
Sounds good buddy. Take care. Have a great Saturday.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:10
You too, my friend.

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BPS 453: How to Build a Screenwriting Career That Actually Lasts with Bob Saenz

January 8, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome Bob Saenz, a working screenwriter and actor whose career quietly dismantles many of the myths surrounding Hollywood success. Bob has written big-budget studio projects, indie features, and multiple Hallmark movies, while also building a long acting career that includes Zodiac, Nash Bridges, and voice work as the iconic villain in the Syphon Filter video game series. What makes Bob’s journey compelling isn’t flash—it’s longevity, adaptability, and a deep respect for story.

Bob’s career began as an actor in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he spent years performing in theater before making a conscious decision to balance family life with creative ambition. Rather than chasing the traditional Los Angeles path, he built his career largely outside of LA, commuting when needed and proving that proximity matters far less than preparation. His years on Nash Bridges became what he calls “the Don Johnson film school,” where he absorbed everything he could about directing, cinematography, sound, and production by simply asking to learn.

That on-set education shaped Bob’s writing philosophy. He believes that the only thing that truly matters in a screenplay—especially a spec—is story. Not structure formulas. Not screenwriting “rules.” Story. He openly admits he’s never read a screenwriting book, instead learning by reading produced scripts, watching films, and studying what doesn’t work as much as what does. In his words, many scripts fail because writers force stories into rigid templates instead of letting the narrative breathe naturally.

One of Bob’s most defining moments came early in his writing career, when the first script he ever wrote was optioned by a studio. The sudden validation inflated his ego—something he now looks back on as a painful but necessary lesson. When the project ultimately fell apart, he gained perspective: most optioned scripts never get made, and success in Hollywood is rarely fast or permanent. That experience reshaped how he approached relationships, collaboration, and professionalism.

Bob’s willingness to break conventional rules eventually became his calling card. His script Extracurricular Activity intentionally defied standard storytelling expectations—the inciting incident occurs long before the movie begins, the protagonist isn’t clearly defined, and traditional character arcs are ignored. Instead of hurting him, that boldness got him noticed. The script later became a produced feature nearly two decades after it was written, proving that originality often has a longer shelf life than trend-chasing.

In addition to studio and indie work, Bob has carved out a successful niche writing Hallmark films. He explains that while the brand has clear guidelines, there’s still room for strong character work and emotional storytelling if you understand the sandbox you’re playing in. Hallmark didn’t limit his creativity—it rewarded his ability to tell compelling stories within defined boundaries, a skill many writers overlook.

Perhaps Bob’s most valuable insight is his perspective on networking. He rejects the idea of transactional relationships, emphasizing that real careers are built through genuine human connection. Networking, he says, isn’t about asking what someone can do for you—it’s about building trust over time. His career, sustained across decades, genres, and mediums, stands as proof that being easy to work with is just as important as being talented.

In the end, Bob Saenz represents the kind of career many writers aspire to but rarely hear about—one built not on hype, but on consistency, curiosity, and respect for the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I have with me a actor and screenwriter who has written big budget feature films. He has written indie films. He has pitched a Hallmark and he has also acted in indie films. And he's also acted in David Fincher zodiac, which I didn't even know, as we find out about this during this interview, he did the voice of a video game that I loved as a kid, siphon filter. Does anybody remember siphon filter? He was the voice of the bad guy. I didn't even realize until I saw his IMDb, I played the hell out of that game as a kid growing up, and we talk all about that as well with guest, Bob Saenz. Hey Bob, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Bob Saenz 2:35
You're welcome,

Dave Bullis 2:37
You know, again, you're a person I've actually want to have on here for a while. The you know, the reason being, you're a working screenwriter, you're out there actually doing it. You're always posting great advice. So, you know, I wanted to ask about your whole career. And there's one thing I have to ask about right off the bat, I see on here, on your in your acting credits, actually. So when I'm gonna talk about writing, you actually did voices for the game siphon filter and siphon filter three.

Bob Saenz 3:03
I did voices really for all the siphon filter games, I was the main bad guy. I was the man in the shadows.

Dave Bullis 3:10
Oh, that's it, Bob. I'm blown away. I think we have to end the whole conversation right now. I don't think we can peak on this.

Bob Saenz 3:16
I sat in the Sony studios in Foster City, California, with a big gold microphone and did that deep, low voice for that guy who was the Senate, who ended up being the senator who was also the man in the shadows. It was really fun. And what was great about it is they actually paid me extra to stay an hour and make death sounds for people who got shot and got lit on fire and fell off cliffs and stuff.

Dave Bullis 3:48
You know, it's just funny, because I remember playing siphon filter in I don't, when did that come out? 2000 I think, yeah, I remember playing that. And I just now it just, it is amazing how small this world has become, because now I remember, I can remember everything about that first game, especially that first game, and that fact that I saw on your IMDB, that you did voices for it. I was like, I got to talk to Bob about this. I just have to,

Bob Saenz 4:16
Well, I still get, every once in a while, the the random email from somebody who's a siphon filter fan. And there's actually some siphon filter, you know, group that gets together and plays or something, and they have a magazine or something, and had had me, wanted to interview me for for it was, it was really funny. It's like the video game that wouldn't die,

Dave Bullis 4:42
Yeah, and that's just a testament to how popular the game was, because again, that first one, especially, I always remember that first one was, was just phenomenal. And I remember playing that and just being blown away. Actually, I remember it coming, you know what? The first time I heard about it, I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut, and they had a. Free disc glued to the top of the box for the original PlayStation. And I actually remember it going, Oh, wow, this is pretty cool. And I popped it in, and that's how I played. So for the first time,

Bob Saenz 5:09
That's, I've never heard that before, that's pretty cool.

Dave Bullis 5:14
Yeah, it's, actually, it's really cool.

Bob Saenz 5:18
Wow, yeah, no, it's, it was a fun it was a fun gig, and it was really in the people were so nice. The guys that produced the game, the guy was the voice director, the whole the whole thing was just first class, and it was really fun.

Dave Bullis 5:33
So Bob, just to sort of continue with this, you know, when you moved out to LA, was one of your original

Bob Saenz 5:41
I don't, well, let's get, let's get something really straight. I don't live in LA.

Dave Bullis 5:46
Oh, you don't. Where do you live?

Bob Saenz 5:49
I live in San Francisco. I have, I have, I have had this career totally out of LA.

Dave Bullis 5:59
So, so So let me ask you, Bob, are the rents is in San Francisco as bad as they say?

Bob Saenz 6:07
Yes, absolutely. My, my, they're worse up here than they are in LA up here is like the, the worst rents, I think, in the country, except for, like, Manhattan, the My daughter has a friend who has a two bedroom apartment in Mountain View, right near Google. That's like $4,200 a month.

Dave Bullis 6:33
Wow, you know, I mean, I just, I have a friend who also lives out there. He was actually on this podcast episode four, I think, David Huell, and he lives out in San Francisco. And, I mean, he and I were talking one day, and he was just saying, how rented, how bad the rents were out there in San Francisco. So more power to you Bob, more power to you because you're actually, you know, living in, you know, in your career.

Bob Saenz 6:56
I, I'm, I'm very fortunate I have a house. So it's, it's, that's part of the reason I don't also go to LA. I also don't go to LA because I'm happy where I am, and I'm four hours away, and I've never missed an appointment and and I can come up here and and work out of my house and and go down there when I have to.

Dave Bullis 7:19
So do you just plan, like, a long drive that day? Do you just take? Just get in your car and drive there?

Bob Saenz 7:23
I leave. I leave at five in the morning. I get there about at the latest, about 1030 in the morning, and I can get a whole lot of work done. And I usually stay for four or five days. This time I stayed for five days. Last time, I sleep for five days, because I had a bunch of meetings, and then we had two days of shooting, of pickups and and, and VFX and EFX on one of my movies.

Dave Bullis 7:51
Oh, that's good when, again, it's cool. You live so close. And because I've always wondered, you know, if you, if you do live semi close to LA, like you caught you, do you? How do you actually get out there? Because sometimes I've heard people say, Listen, I get in with a bunch of other people. We all go down, you know, they or they, they do something other, some other means of transportation to get there, but, but it, no, it's just good that you live so close and and so sort of taking a step back. The reason I was asking this was when you decided to move out to California, you know, because you were, now you're in San Francisco, you know, what did you go out there with the original goal of being an actor?

Bob Saenz 8:24
Oh, I'm for I was born in California, so I've always been here, but I've always wanted to be an actor for women. I was a little kid, and I was, I AM, from the time I was about, oh, 16 years old, I was doing like professional plays and musicals around San Francisco in the Bay Area, and was in the midst of a long run in a show called The fantastics, when I met my wife and I was it was one of those things where you say, Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this woman, or do I want to be a poor actor? And I decided I would spend the rest of my life with my wife. We've been married 42 years, and so when I was about four years old, after I had worked in a real job, but a good job, but a real job, I went to her and said, You know what? We got money in the bank, and it looks like the company I'm working for is not going to be around much longer, because they've been bought by somebody else, and they're screwing them. I think I want to be an actor again. And when I picked her up off the floor, she said, Okay, and I decided. Then people told me, You can't do it. You're it's you're not. You're living in San Francisco. You can't be a professional actor at your age. You can't, you know, you can't just change. And I said, why not? And I've spent my life saying, why not, to people, So it all worked. I got my my sag card in a movie called Angels in the Outfield with one line try throwing it over the plate. And I, I just marketed myself and and, and was relentless in my pursuit, and ended up with a with a recurring, very, very, very small recurring role on a TV series that's CB series that shot up here called Nash Bridges with Don Johnson and Cheech Marin. And I used my time my six years on that TV show to work on my writing and get it out to some of the producers on that show. And it kind of all snowballed from there.

Dave Bullis 10:53
So when you were reading the script for Nash Bridges like each week, you know, you would get the script for the latest episode, would you sort of analyze it in different ways? Bob like, would you sort of put on, like a writer's hat and say, you know, I wonder how

Bob Saenz 11:06
I would, I said to myself, I can write better than this crap, and, and, and, which was funny, because guys like Damon lindwaff were writing for Nash at the time, but, but I, I wrote an episode in edge. That's what I did, and they did buy it, but I got a lot of encouragements from some people, and that was, that's what spurred me on to write my first spec feature, which I optioned. So it's, it's been a weird trip.

Dave Bullis 11:44
You know, that kind of reminds me of Mike Beerman when I, when I had him on the show a few episodes ago, you know, he actually said, when he took his daughter out to those auditions, he actually got the script and said, Hell, I can write better than this. And, you know, we're both a part of that, of that writers group on Facebook. But it just, it's just funny to me, because, you know, whenever, because, I mean, I said the same thing to myself, honestly, Bob, I said to myself, hey, I can write or make a movie better than this. And that's sort of what sparked it. And then I got, then it was proved to me, was, oh, no, I can't. I just, but no, I'm just joking around. I'm but

Bob Saenz 12:18
What's funny.What's funny about the whole thing was, is, I've been a lot of movies, and I've done a lot of just small parts and things, but I've really enjoyed myself. And there are a lot of movies I've been in that aren't even on the IMDB. Thing, I don't even, I don't add things to the IMDB if, if they're on there, it's not because I put them there. It's because somebody else did. But I've been a lot of movies, and I've done, you know, some, some pretty fun acting jobs, but I found out I started writing, that I was a way better writer than I was an actor. I have a very small range right now. I'm holding my hands about three inches apart, and that's, you know, that's basically my range as an actor and and so I found out I was a much better rider, so I'm enjoying that a lot more.

Dave Bullis 13:03
So I have to ask, when you were on the set of Nash Nash Bridges was Don Johnson, a cool, as cool of a guy as he seems.

Bob Saenz 13:11
Don Johnson has a reputation, and sometimes I think unfairly, of being a not great guy. And I all I can do is, all I can go by is, is my personal experiences with him, and he was terrific to me, completely terrific to me. And I was there for six years, and couldn't have been treated better. I came away from that show with a lot of really good lifelong friends, including, you know, we don't talk now, but including, Don if I ran into him, I'm sure we would be just fine. It's, it was great experience. I was glad it was over after six years, because I wanted to move on and do some writing. But I it was a great experience. I wouldn't have traded for anything. I called it the Don Johnson film school. I learned everything I could learn on that set. It was great.

Dave Bullis 14:11
I like that name, Bob, the Don Johnson film school. I like that a lot. It seems like a hell of a film school.

Bob Saenz 14:17
It was, it was great. I went to him, I think, in the second season, and I said, Look, I want to learn everything I can about how this is all done. So when I'm not working, but I'm here, can I hang around on set and watch and see how each department does what they do? And he made a little sign of the cross, and said, bless you. Of course you can. And and said, that's how I learned. So I did. I at one point, I learned about why they use, you know, which lens they use, and, and I got to carry around the Steadicam one afternoon. And, and I learned from the sound. Eyes, one of the great sound guys ever, and I learned about lighting and what the grips do, and electrical and you name it, I just and props and everybody I got to know, and learned from them how they did what they did. It was an unbelievably great experience, and it's really helped me as a writer,

Dave Bullis 15:21
And that's something I wanted to actually follow up with Bob, is when you're on set like that, and you know, you're the you're, you're, you know, seeing everything through the lens of an actor, how has that helped your writing when you're writing characters?

Bob Saenz 15:34
Oh, a ton. It helps a ton. Because I've, I've been on the the other side of getting scripts where people don't sound real, like you get dialog, but, you know, was written without anybody ever saying it out loud. And and you, you know, it's, it's helped me not as much with character, because I really love to develop character in my my scripts, but it's helped me a lot with dialog, a lot in having dialog sound as real and natural as it can be, it also helped by you know, by learning how to do exposition, rather than you know, having you know on the nose dialog drives me nuts. So it's, it's, it's, really it did. Did you answer your question? Yes?

Dave Bullis 16:27
Because, you know, I imagine when you're, when you're actually sitting down to actually write, you know, a screenplay, and you're fleshing out these characters. I am, you know, we all sort of imagine an actor playing that role, and I imagine you when you're, when you're writing this that you're probably saying, well, probably saying, Well, what is the actor going to be doing while they're saying this stuff? Should they be sitting there that hopefully this isn't sort of like a, what they call a floating head scene, you know what? I mean, there's, I'm sure, because you're, you know, you have that acting background, you could sort of take that a step further and say, Well, you know, I know what actors are going to say in a scene like this. They want to be moving around or or they want to be doing something I do.

Bob Saenz 17:04
I really It sounds so fun. It's going to sound really funny, but I don't think about actors at all when I write, I think about servicing the story. To me, everything is about story. I've talked to so many producers and worked with so many people. Now, after all the movies that that I have been more than fortunate enough to have produced that that the only thing that matters, especially in a spec script, is story they want to know. If they've got a serviceable story that people are going to want to see. And that's when I write a spec. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that that services the story. Yes, if I if, if the character in that story needs to move around during a scene rather than just sit Yes, and I think about those things Absolutely. What would the character be doing in this situation? They're not going to be, yeah, floating hands Absolutely, but I'm, I'm a really, really story guy, and man, I never think of, I never imagined any actor playing a role. I want to write roles that actors want to play, and that that, to me, is more important.

Dave Bullis 18:19
So So Bob, when you actually started to write your own screenplays, did you grab any sort of books or anything that to sort of use as, like a sort of a guide or anything when you, when you, when you started writing?

Bob Saenz 18:31
No, I didn't. I've never read a screenwriting book. I know it's an announcement of most people, and they think, wow, I read lots of scripts, and I looked for scripts for for films that I loved, and thought, how did they do it? I read anybody's friends and neighbors or whoever had a script, and read scripts to look at, and most of them are bad, and looked at bad scripts and thought, how can I keep from doing some of these things, and I, I just wrote. The only thing I did was get myself a copy of final draft and to so that the so that the formatting was correct. But otherwise, no, I didn't. I didn't read any screenwriting books.

Dave Bullis 19:18
Well, that's amazing, because usually, you know, you do you do something like you go out, maybe you buy, you know, the big three that people usually buy.

Bob Saenz 19:27
Well, yes, infield, and, and the the the awful save the cat and, and whatever else you know, hero's journey, I guess. And then, no, I didn't, but I've seen save the cat wreck more scripts than you can imagine.

Dave Bullis 19:57
Oh, yeah. So, so well, actually, you know that? It's actually interesting, because, you know, whenever I'm in a screen readers group and somebody brings up, like, the hero's journey or this or state of the cat, or what have you, I usually tell them just to sort of put that aside. Because I just, like you said, it usually wrecks a lot more scripts. The reason being is they're always trying to force these things to happen that aren't organically there, if you know what I mean.

Bob Saenz 20:21
Well, like I said before, about story, when you do that, you can't service your story. You cannot you can't make a story fit into a preconceived box, especially a good story we could talk about, you know, some later on, some of the things later that where I've completely ignored story stories, story rule, supposed, story rules and and written some scripts that I just wanted to write, even though they broke, you know, a ton of the story rules and those, you know, the one of those scripts is the script that got me noticed in Hollywood. I broke almost every single supposed story rule going and I didn't do it on purpose. I just wrote a script that I wanted to see.

Dave Bullis 21:11
So, so let's talk about that, Bob, you know, you broke every rule. You know, what was the script and what were a lot of these rules that you broke?

Bob Saenz 21:19
Oh, it's called extracurricular activity. It just, we just finished filming the effect sequences this last weekend. It should be out in the fall, maybe, I think, and, and it's, it was a dream come true for me, because it was one of my favorite scripts I ever wrote, and the director and I, well, not I didn't matter what I thought, but the director pretty much saw it for what I saw it for, and wanted to have it be basically what I had originally written, you know, 18 years ago. So it's, been kind of like one of those dream come true deals. So and how did I break rules? Okay, the inciting incident happens. You know, 40 pages before the movie starts, the main character, the protagonist. Well, you don't even know who the protagonist is most of the movie. It could be one guy, it could be another guy, but they both could be the antagonist you don't know and and the the main character, who you don't know if is the antagonist of the protagonist has no arc.

Dave Bullis 22:41
So yeah, I could see that definitely breaking, seeing what rules that broke. You know, it reminds me to Bob, you know, it's kind of like, what, what Tarantino did Reservoir Dogs, what Sean Shane Black did with lethal weapon. It was almost like, you know, I, by the way, I loved, I actually love to read the script, not only see them.

Bob Saenz 23:01
Oh, hey, no one. When we get when we get done, give me your email.

Dave Bullis 23:05
Oh, cool. Thank you. I'm always interested in seeing you again, like, like you were just mentioning it sort of broke all the rules, but you use it as sort of, you use the break in, which I always think is great, because I think what happens is a lot of these screenwriters write with all these rules and maybe to certain ways, and they don't make the script theirs. So what happens is they keep it's almost like imagine if 99 screenwriters all were writing almost the same thing with the same description, and that one other person actually follows their own voice. And maybe it's a little off the wall and it doesn't adhere to to these formatting, you know what I mean, like this whole description thing, and all of a sudden it's like, wow, look at this, and it's so different from the pack. All because they just, you know, didn't go too crazy, but they, they were able to differentiate, differentiate themselves.

Bob Saenz 23:58
Well, I went pretty crazy, but, but the thing about it was, is that I never let anybody tell me you have to do something some way. My answer is, again, always want, why not? And I wanted to write something that was, you know, that was me. That was different. It was something that I thought might get the interest of some people, and it did. It's, it's literally the it, even though it is what I would consider to be and well, well, not what I would consider to be. As much I had somebody who, who was one of the hallmark producer, read it and tell me it was the anti Hallmark film and and which I felt pretty good about, but she liked it so much that she hired me to write a hallmark film. So, you know, you just never know where, where something you know one of your samples is going to lead you.

Dave Bullis 24:58
Yeah, that's very true. Lot. And speaking of writing for Hallmark, and you've actually had written a few movies for them,

Bob Saenz 25:05
Ohh yes, I have, I have, I have up to right now. I have three Christmas movies for them. I'm probably will have a fourth this year. We'll see. I've got a couple of other films for them, and I'm writing one right now. So they've been great that they've been terrific to me and and the Hallmark doesn't produce any films. There are a bunch of feeder production companies that that feed hallmarks, gigantic appetite for films, and I've worked for a few of them, and it's been, it's been really a joy to work with some of these wonderful production companies and wonderful people, and work with the Hallmark people who are terrifically nice, and it's, you know, they have A brand and and within that brand, and within the rules for those brands, you know you have to color between the lines, and if you learn how to do that and still tell a good story, you know they want to work with you.

Dave Bullis 26:12
So Bob, that's actually my next question was, when you're writing for Hallmark, do they let you come in and pitch your own ideas, or do they maybe have something they want you to work on already.

Bob Saenz 26:23
No, they let you pitch your own idea. Well, they don't the production companies let you pitch your own ideas. Yeah. And then they pitch your ideas to Hallmark. And if Hallmark, you know, goes for one, then you know, they come back and and you write it, or you will, you write a write a spec for them. And I've also gotten jobs where they came. Production companies came to me and said, here's our idea. We want to hire you to write it. So they've come all different ways.

Dave Bullis 26:54
And again, that that's that power of networking. And it's, you know, obviously, you know, you've been able to use all these scripts as calling cards. And again, you have such a great reputation. You're able to sort of parlay that in other work, which is something you know we usually talk about on this podcast, is how your network is your net worth, and basically how you're able to sort of use your network by doing good work is really critical of your success.

Bob Saenz 27:20
Networking is a really, really interesting thing, and I do it because I like people, and I like to, I like, you know, it's, it's fun to, it's fun to network and find new friends. But networking isn't about finding somebody in the industry and saying, Now, what can you do for me? Networking is all about building relationships that are true, that you meet people and you, and you get to know people and you, and you build relationships where you actually like each other. I have a lot of great friends that I also work with that that if they you know that we can be honest with each other and work together and with great relationships. And I it's easier to be nice than it is to be not nice. Not being not nice takes a lot of work. And I like people, and I like to work with people and and the best writers, you'll always notice that work over and over again are the ones that know how to cooperate, understand the business, understand that everything they write is going to get rewritten no matter what. And and work with the people and learn from the people that they're dealing with. It's it's so easy to to get jaded, and it's so easy to get upset about all the rejections that you get when you're in this because I've had millions of them. But you get to a point where you also realize that the rejection isn't personal that they don't they're not doing it because they want to get back at you. They're doing it for a million other reasons that you you have no control over. So you have to, you have to set yourself up in a business where that business do, the business is you, and your scripts are like your inventory, and you have to sell you, and the only way you can do that is being nice and cooperative and a good person. And it makes, it makes a huge difference

Dave Bullis 29:37
So that that sort of you know mythos, so to speak, of the screenwriter who is so most like a rambling alcoholic or something, and and going into meetings and and just sort of making demands those days are far over. Right Bob?

Bob Saenz 30:02
Oh, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 30:05
Or the idea

Bob Saenz 30:06
There's, there's a million scripts out there, and I'm not kidding. I mean, there's a million scripts out there, and there are 1000s and 1000s of screenwriters who want to be, who want to do this. And yes, if somebody is like, Uber talented, you know, they may put up for with them for a while, while they are successful, but, you know, they stop being successful and their phones stop ringing because they're not easy to work with. Nobody wants to work with with, with people who aren't easy to work with. And and you just, you just learn to, you know, learn to it. You just be. You treat people the way you want to be treated. And it makes a huge difference.

Dave Bullis 30:51
Yeah, I concur Bob. And, you know, there was a friend of mine when he does a lot of film work, both as like a producer and a director, and something he instituted finally, when he was doing a lot of, like indie film. And by indie film, you know, I'll just classify that. I'm gonna throw a number out there, 100,000 and under. Now, obviously I'm just throwing a number out there, but it's basically he would always be astonished when, like, first time actors or first time writers would show up and they'd have an ego, and he never got it, because they haven't done anything. How do you even know, what if you're good or not? Basically, you know. And so what do you do is he actually made a rule, no egos, and he would send that message, I'm sorry, Bob,

Bob Saenz 31:35
That's a great rule,

Dave Bullis 31:38
And I can I agree completely, because one of the things I said to him was that is such a great idea. Because what he says is, in a very nice way, he tells everybody, look, we all have had various successes and failures in this industry. Some of us have worked in this industry for 1015, years. Some people have just started working in this industry last week. So let's just all sort of, you know, leave all that at the door and just focus on this project right now, for better or worse,

Bob Saenz 32:06
Oh, I and, and it's yes. And what's so interesting about it is I had really early success with my writing. I optioned the first script I ever wrote to a studio, and, boy, my ego went out of bounds. It was out of control. And it was, I regret it like crazy, because I think I really alienated some people who were my friends at the time, because I was just such a jerk and and then the movie didn't get made, and which is, you know, now that I find out that 99% of all option films don't get made, it makes sense that it didn't get made because it's, you know, you're, if you're that lucky, 1% that's great, but, but at the time, it was just like this huge slap in The face and an unbelievable lesson to me that to never do anything like that again. And I'm kind of grateful now that it didn't happen at the time, because I could have been a real jerk and and I just it was a really, really sobering experience,

Dave Bullis 33:20
You know, but I can imagine, though, you know, Bob, when you have such success so quickly, it was almost intoxicating, you know what? I mean, it's almost like, almost a validation.

Bob Saenz 33:32
Oh, it was a validation. I mean, it still was a validation that I could write. But it was, you know, I hate to say this, it was like, too soon, it was like three months after I wrote my first spec script, it ended up at Polygram, the Polygram studios to get made and only because universal and MCA bought Polygram Corporation for their music catalog, and then canceled their movie business and dumped all their projects that I got it back. It wasn't on its way to get made and and it was just this unbelievable shock of of this happening that that kind of jolted me back to reality and out of the the jerkiness stupor I was in,

Dave Bullis 34:25
Because, again, I was just imagining, you know, especially when you get success that quickly, you know, have you ever seen the movie overnight? That's a documentary about Troy Duffy,

Bob Saenz 34:35
Yes, I have. I did, and I it's, it's painful to watch,

Dave Bullis 34:44
Yes, especially with everything that you hear about the Weinsteins, but they, in that film, look like the good guys, because they gave that guy everything, and he just pissed it all away.

Bob Saenz 34:59
Yep, yeah, dude, and it was, was, it was the, yeah, I didn't quite get that bad. I didn't, I didn't get to that point, but, but, yeah, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a movie that there's a couple of movies about making movies that everyone should watch. What one of them is, is that one, the other one is a movie that I absolutely love called American movie. Have you seen that?

Dave Bullis 35:28
You know, a couple listeners keep telling me to watch it. I have not seen it yet

Bob Saenz 35:32
That you need to watch that. It's about a guy making an ultra low budget film. It's a terrific film.

Dave Bullis 35:39
You know, I'm going to make sure to rent that right now, after we're off the phone, Bob, I'm going to make sure to go either rent that or buy it off Amazon.

Bob Saenz 35:50
It's a great documentary just this. I actually it's one of the few documentaries that I own. So it's, it's well worth it.

Dave Bullis 36:01
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check that out. And I've, you know, an overnight, as we were talking about, that's it. That's another great one. And there's always that joke about making a movie, because for those of the for those who've actually done it, actually gone through the stake of making a movie, they you there's a whole nother level of enjoyment, because you're like, I've been at that there's production meetings where tempers are flaring, or I've been at that point where you're so frustrated, you go, Why the hell did I start this in the first place?

Bob Saenz 36:31
Well, everybody's got to live through a first movie, and that's the truth. I mean, if you're a director or a producer or something, you have to live through that first movie and see all those mistakes that you make. First movies are like, you know, in the most part, first scripts, they're, they're mostly to to teach you a lesson, and not, you know, go much further than that.

Dave Bullis 37:02
Yeah, and you know that that's, that's, you know, another thing I always talk about, too, is meet how you make a movie. And always, you know, I don't mean this way it sounds, but always tell people to aim low for their first movie, because they, you know, you tell somebody maybe, go make a movie, and suddenly they want to a movie with $10 million of stunts and explosions. You're like, no, no. Think, think, think smaller so you can actually get it accomplished.

Bob Saenz 37:26
Well, yeah, there's the thing about movies nowadays, and it's really sad, I think, is the mid budget movie has disappeared. There are movies that that, that the studios make, that are 100 and $200 million 100 million dollars, and then there's the $5 million movie and lower. And there's not a whole heck of a lot in between. And there's about six, six entities that can make the $200 million movies and and there's tons of producers that can make the $5 million movies. And yet, people, the new writers, insist on writing these great big budget things that that there's no market for. There's zero market for. Last year, somebody was telling me this. I'm not sure that this is completely true, but last year they said in 2016 Disney didn't buy one spec script?

Dave Bullis 38:24
Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Bob Saenz 38:30
Yeah, it's, that's the way it is right now. So if you're gonna write a first movie, write it $5 million or less.

Dave Bullis 38:40
Yeah, I concur, you know. And as we talk about Disney and buying all these spec scripts, you know, I've seen that before, too, where, you know, it's, I was listening to a interview, actually, with the Weinstein Brothers, and they actually said the best way to make money in the movie business is just have a whole library of films, not make another one, but you're just selling the licenses and the content rights for, you know, temporarily selling them, just renting them out. And that's how they they would make a lot of money in the film industry. So when I hear stuff about, like Disney, like that, you know, I imagine either they're pulling back from already established properties, and I think Beauty and the Beast,

Bob Saenz 39:20
Oh, they're all they're making. Yeah, all they're making is things that are in there from their back catalog, or the Marvel which they own, or Star Wars, which they own, or Lucas, which they own, and and then they're using, you know, whatever else you know, they made Pete. They remade Pete's Dragon last year. They, I mean, it's just there. They have their they're going to do their their ride movies like Pirates of the Caribbean, and they're going to and they're going to stay away from trying to do anything that doesn't have an already established audience.

Dave Bullis 39:59
Yeah, and that's why, again, like guys like us, you know, we like you're just saying, you know, the under $5 million budget, there's a lot more producers there. And you know, also, as we talk about, you know, Netflix and Hulu and all these other, you know, distribution channels. There's a lot more ways to get your stuff out there,

Bob Saenz 40:27
But still, Netflix and Hulu and Amazon, if they're doing things with, you know, buying films or making films, they're all in that $5 billion or less category. I'm not talking I'm not talking about the TV, the the series that they that they end up buying, but those kinds of things. But Netflix and Hulu and Amazon are also buying 99% of what they buy from established writers, producers, directors, production companies and people like that. When they all start, first started, they were going to be open to, you know, all kinds of new people. And found out that most new scripts, you know, are are from from unknown writers are pretty bad, and had to regroup and decide to do it the way the studios do it, through agents and and production companies and that way. So it's, it's not as open as as some people think it is.

Dave Bullis 41:24
That's an extremely good point, Bob, because I think you're absolutely right, you know, because what happens is, when they do go out there and see all these unknown writers, you know, maybe they're unknown for a reason. Maybe their scripts have never gotten better. For instance, I actually, you know, have known, known writers, and they they've written like, 1011, 12 screenplays, and every single one of them, Bob is exactly the same as the one before it. And what I mean by that is, is literally, it's the same type of characters in the same type of situation, in the same type of genre, and it's just the same old the kids go in a house that supposedly haunted, to prove it's not haunted. But it turns out it is haunted, and they also dying one by one. And that is that pretty much sums up all, like 10-11, of those scripts.

Bob Saenz 42:17
When Amazon first got started, they had that, let's be open to everyone, and let's find I think their idea behind it was, let's try and get all the great scripts that the studios miss. So they opened up to everyone, and they had, they said, please send us your stuff and we'll read it all, and we'll be buying from unknowns. And they lost a million dollars on that, that deal, and pretty much decided, okay, this isn't the way it works. We need to go to established producers and production companies and writers and stuff and and they realize that that having a an open submission policy left them open to getting hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of scripts that they had to hire people to read.

Dave Bullis 43:14
And most of those scripts probably were read before through various, you know, gatekeepers, or maybe screen script consultants, packages and script consultants and stuff like that. And they all got passes, you know, so

Bob Saenz 43:28
Everybody's they all did. They all did. I can't I There may have been one or two that that Amazon looked at and and did something with. But out of the couple of 100,000 that they got. That's not a, you know, that's not a very good percentage,

Dave Bullis 43:47
Yeah, that's probably, what, less than 1%

Bob Saenz 43:50
Oh, it's probably less than a 10th of a percent. You know. The problem is, is that, is that, that there are when you set up an open submission like that, is you also set yourself up for people who have unrealistic expectations, that they figure, once they they are able to openly submit, that, you know, they can sit back and wait for the movie to get made. And this is a this is an industry especially for writers. This is an industry of unbelievable patience. You have to be so patient to try and be a screenwriter. It's, it's unbelievable that the average time between the time you write a script and the time that it gets made, if it does get made, is about eight years. In the case of extracurricular activity, it was 18 years. So you know, it's. It's there is no instant gratification in this business, none. There are no shortcuts to get something done, and there's no instant gratification. It is a long haul, nose to the grindstone, thick skin business.

Dave Bullis 45:20
And you know, actually, I wanted to ask you too about that. You mentioned notice of the grindstone. I want to ask about your process, Bob, and how you know you write screenplays. So when, when you know you wake up in the morning, or if you have a morning routine, what are some of the most important things that you do before you start a screenplay? I mean, you just start with a treatment. Do you just go right into it. You outline it all.

Bob Saenz 45:42
I come up with a concept, and the concepts can come from anywhere. I've gotten concepts from for my scripts, from something my kids said to me. I've gotten concepts from my scripts with conversations with friends. I've gotten concepts by reading an article in in a newspaper, or, or, you know, just thinking about what ifs and, or seeing something when I'm out somewhere, and thinking, you know, what if and, and coming up with concepts for, for, for whatever I'm going to write next, and, and once I do that, if it's a subject matter that I don't know anything about, one of the first things I do is hands on research. I actually go out and find people that do what I'm going to be writing about. And I asked them about how they do it and what they do. I don't go on wick, you know, on, on Wikipedia, on on, on the internet, or look at, you know, on the internet, I actually go out and find people. I've been, I've been on ride alongs with cops. I've interviewed police chiefs. I've interviewed doctors. I've gone into hospitals, I've I've gone I've done all kinds of things to get a good idea about how things are done in the area I'm going to write about, so that when I write it, it has its basis in reality, even if I'm going to write something that you know is completely out in left field.

Dave Bullis 47:15
So Bob, how do you approach like people, like, you know, the police and the chief of police, how do you actually approach them about maybe being able to sort of to get them to open up?

Bob Saenz 47:27
I call them and they say, Hi, I'm writing a script about this and this and this, and I want to get it right. And everybody says, Finally, somebody who wants to get what we do right, and they open up and talk to you. I was supposed to talk to a police chief and a small town police chief, because I wrote something that had a small town police chief, police chief in it, and I wanted to get stories from him and ideas from him and how it all works. And I was supposed to have 20 minutes with him, and I ended up with almost two hours because we were having such a good time. And it was, it was unbelievably helpful in in getting me to get a realistic idea of all kinds of different things that ended up in the script. So, yeah, people, you'd be surprised. The people really want you to get what they do, right? So they will open up and talk to you. Yes, I've had people say, no, no, I'm too busy. Or no, that's ridiculous, but, you know, you can always find somebody.

Dave Bullis 48:33
So, you know, that's actually something that I've done too. You know, actually one of the things that I did Bob, I went on Korea at one time, and I actually just asked, Hey, is there any police officers that would want to talk to me? And this is the reason why, and this is what I'm doing. And I got like, four or five responses, and I was able to talk to them, and, you know, it was amazing. And just, you know, and that's, that's what I did. I didn't actually call up anybody in particular. I just put that on courier.

Bob Saenz 48:57
I think that's great. And you just do what you have to do. You do. You know you do. And you might know somebody that knows, somebody that does what you're looking for and, and it's just, it's a matter of just again, networking and and finding out about things, and then, if you have, you know, if you're doing your, your your, you know. And if I come up against something that in a script that I that I don't know about, I'll make an effort to find out about it, not just make it up. I read a script one time, unfortunately, from another writer that took place in a hospital, and when I finished reading it, I called him and I said, Have you ever been in a hospital? Because nothing in this script would ever happen in a hospital, ever. And he said to me, but it's a movie, and that was the end of our conversation.

Dave Bullis 50:03
I just imagine the the hospital fight from machete, where the where they know all the stuff's happening in the hospital, but then again, it's a movie, right? Yeah, but, but, but, you know, but that's of a movie. And machete, I went in expecting, you know, you know, so over the top, you know, so, I mean, I You probably can't go in too deep, but was it just, like things like, was it a shootout? Was it just,

Bob Saenz 50:29
No, it was just, it was it was they were commandeering an operating room when nobody was in there, which you couldn't possibly ever do. It was, it was just a lot of things like that. It was just, it was just ridiculous. And, and there was, it was just, you know, you could have a shootout in an operating room if you wanted to. That would be fine, you know, but you have to portray the operating room correctly, and how they up, how they work. That's not and Machete is great. I mean, that's, that's Rodriguez, and that's Danny Trejo. And by the way, Danny Trejo is a great guy, but that's, that's a whole nother thing, that's, you suspend your belief in something like that.

Dave Bullis 51:15
So have you actually worked with, with, with Danny Trejo Bob?

Bob Saenz 51:19
I was on a TV series for six years called Nash Bridges, where I again, like I had a really, really, really small part, but there had so many great guest stars. I sat down with Robert Rodriguez one day and and picked his brain for about 2030, minutes. Trejo was on, and he was great. What a nice guy, just a terrific guy. And I got to meet some, you know, I got to meet some, some really, really fabulous people. And some people that, to me, were like icons. One of my favorite movies in the entire world is the producers. And the guy that played Han Friedkin, Kenneth Mars guested on Nash once, and I got to sit down with him. And it was, it was unbelievable. And James Hong from who played, you know, low pan in big trouble, Little China guest started, and I got to tell him, you know, I'm not worthy. But it was, it was really, it was really an amazing experience to be on that show was kind of Forrest Gumpy. I got to, you know, be there and meet and see all this wonderful stuff.

Dave Bullis 52:33
You can't see this Bob, because it's a podcast, but to my right, on the on my right side wall, here is a signed James Hong headshot of him as lo pan, that I actually got a few years ago at this event that he actually did here in Philadelphia, Chinatown. It was at this meet and greet thing, and he was one of the he was the honored guest, and I got to meet him, and it was, and he's absolutely phenomenal,

Bob Saenz 52:58
Yeah, it's just great. He's really funny, and he's really, you know, he I said, I walked up to him and and I said, Hey, I got to tell you something. And he looked at me and went, low pan.

Dave Bullis 53:15
So it was great. Yeah, you're Cassandra's father in Wayne's World, too. And he goes, Oh, yeah.

Bob Saenz 53:23
No, never came. Never came up. No, no. All I could think about is, is Jack Burton going with fire coming out of his mouth. And that was it that was for me

Dave Bullis 53:42
And see that's such a great a great story, Bob. Because, I mean, I, I've met him, actually twice. And you know, everyone who's always met him has always been like, wow, he's just, he is phenomenal. And when I met him, he was right before Kung Fu, Panda, two or three. I can't remember which one, but he actually showed a little clip. And he goes, he goes, Listen, everybody. He goes, You can't video this, or I'm gonna get beat up by Pixar. He's like, Pixar is gonna come to my house and abduct me. He goes, so don't, you can't, you can't actually show this. And it was just, it was just funny, because you know the James Hong delivery of that line. So picture what I just said as James Hong. And now it's funny.

Bob Saenz 54:19
Yes, I can completely picture but anyway, he was great, and he was fun on the show, and it was really wonderful to, you know, sit down and talk to him. So I've had, it's been, it's been a really kind of fun, you know, experience to be an actor and doing these things. I've worked with some unbelievable directors. I've worked with, I've been lucky enough to work with Coppola twice, and then as an actor, and Ron Howard once, and Clint Eastwood twice, and David Fincher once, in an amazing experience. And I just it's just been like Kismet. And thank you, God, you know, having me be able to have these experiences, because I came away from them happy and amazingly educated about what I saw and took in.

Dave Bullis 55:13
So what was that project that you worked on with Fincher?

Bob Saenz 55:21
I'm in zodiac,

Dave Bullis 55:21
Really,

Bob Saenz 55:21
Yeah, in the I got, it's great. I got a letter from Warner Brothers right after I did it, and it said, you're in the you're in the movie. Come down to the premiere. We can't wait to see you, looking forward to it. We'll give you the information when we get it. And then a couple of weeks later, I got a letter saying they cut 18 minutes out of the movie, and your three minutes are in those 18 minutes. And thank you very much, and please don't come to the premiere. So I thought, Okay, well, I've been cut out of, you know, worst movies. And I, you know, it was one of those things you can't take the experience away, but I was hoping, and then I got a check, a residual check, and if you're not in a movie, you shouldn't get a residual check. So I called my agent, and I said, I got a residual check, but I don't supposed to get it. I don't want to cash it. And she said, Hold on. And she checked, and she came back and said, You're in the director's cut, and you do get a residual check, so go ahead and cash it, and please send me my 10% so I'm in the director's cut. So now it's now don't watch that two and a half three hour movie in the director's cut again to look for two minutes of me, but it was fun. And Fincher is just, he is the greatest. He was so much fun, and so just a terrific guy. I really enjoyed it.

Dave Bullis 56:55
So what does, what does he do? Bob, that is that is different. That sort of makes him Fincher, if you know what I mean, is it just by directing,

Bob Saenz 57:04
I've told, I've told, I've told the story before on another podcast, so I'm not going to tell the entire story. He cast me and then brought me in as an extra, not telling me. He cast me because the character was nervous and and then sprung it on me the day of the shoot. And and then, and then, had me, had me look at the script. And then, once I felt halfway comfortable, said, Okay, we're not using the script. We're going to do this all, and we're going to ad lib everything. And then he said, Oh, by the way, the real guy who you're portraying was a chain smoker. Do you smoke? I said, No. And he said, You do now. And it just went to really help my performance. He was great. I mean, he was, he was, he was, couldn't have been, couldn't have been a better experience as an actor. Couldn't have been. It's, it was one for the books I'm it's, it's, you know, it's one of those great memories that no one could ever take away from you.

Dave Bullis 58:17
So just a quick follow up, Bob, one last venture question. Did how many takes did you do of the scenes? Because he we all, I've heard stories about Fincher where he does a lot of takes of the same thing. Did you have to do a lot of Did you do a lot of takes that day?

Bob Saenz 58:31
I Yes, many multiple, multiple, multiples. But the greatest story was, I play a cab driver. Then one of the scenes, I was actually driving the cab, and Jake Gyllenhaal runs across Mission Street to the Chronicle building, and all he does is run across and and he hits my cab with the palm of his hand as he's running because I'm to get stop is trying to run across the street. And I stopped, and about take 74 Gyllenhaal walked up to the window of the cab and looked at me and said, Do you want to do that again? And I said, Hey, he goes, I don't. And he walked over to Finch and said, I'm done. I'm through with running across the street. And yeah, 7070. Takes. So about running across the street.

Dave Bullis 59:26
So, so I just want to just sort of reiterate that, because we kind of lost the connection there for a second. So Jake, but what? Jake went back to Fincher and just said, I'm done,

Bob Saenz 59:35
Yeah, I'm done with this.

Dave Bullis 59:40
See stories like that. Bob, that that that story is why I like that, why I like filmmaking. It's just stories like that. And again, like you said, an experience you're going to take away for the rest of your life. Oh yeah, And Bob, we had a few questions come in, and we've answered a lot of them as just in the course of conversation, as it naturally happens. But there is, there is one question that I thought I would ask, and I'm sorry I didn't. I don't know who actually asked this. I will find out in a second. But just about marketing yourself over the years and promotion. This came in through this screenwriters who can actually write a Facebook forum. I wanted to ask about that. What are you so what are some of the things that you've done? And advice for writers, for marketing and promotion over the years, for people who want to promote their own work,

Bob Saenz 1:00:36
Anything you can do that's not illegal or stupid. That's, that's my, that's, that's pretty much my whole, you know, my whole outlook on, on marketing yourself. I did it a lot through networking, because I was lucky enough to be an actor and be on sets and network with people and get to know people first before I said, Oh, by the way, I'm writing something. I didn't walk up to, you know, people I met right away and say, oh, you know, by the way, I'm, you know, I'm a writer. Will you read my script and make me, you know, and buy to make me a millionaire? Which I've seen people do. I again, I establish relationships with people. Networking is incredibly important. It takes a long time, but it's really the best way querying producers going on IMDb Pro, invest. You have to if you're going to be in business for yourself, like I said before, in your marketing yourself, you have to invest in your business. You can't be cheap about it. So you have to buy things like IMDb Pro, and you got to go on there, and you've got to look at the producers who produce the kind of scripts that you're writing, and query them, you know. And 99% of the time, you're going to get no answer or a pass. But the thing about it is, that all it takes is one person to believe in you and believe in what you do, one person in it to begin with. That's all it took for me, one person. And I think that that the problem is, is that people don't want to do the hard work that it takes to find that one person. So you query producers, and you keep querying them, you query you query managers, agents. Agents aren't going to want to talk to you. Don't query agents. They don't want you. They don't need you there. They've got what they want. If you're when you get established, then they'll talk to you. But managers, managers will talk to you. There's lists of managers on Done Deal pro there's lists of managers that you can find on the internet, find the ones that are specializing in the kind of things that you're writing, and query them. And then, you know, do it again, and then do it again, not too not too quickly, but, you know, and keep it up and keep I used to keep a big chart of who I sent stuff to and when I sent stuff to him, and what the response was. So I so I was educated and knew, you know, who I'd sent stuff to before, so I wasn't an idiot and sent the same thing out to them again.

Dave Bullis 1:03:23
So it's like, they're like, Man, this, this guy sent me the same thing again. I didn't like it the first time.

Bob Saenz 1:03:28
Yeah, yeah. You don't want to do that, because actually, surprisingly enough, some of these places do actually keep track and, and, and you don't want to be one of the people that they see something from and just delete. So you want to be you have to be smart and business like about it. It's and and, and Cory and networking and, and some of the contests are good too. I've had a friend who, I've got a couple of friends who did really well in the nickel, and they got managers out of it, and they got some writing assignments out of it. So the nickels a great contest to do well in Austin is another great contest to do well in. And after that, it kind of falls off precipitously that, you know that there are so many screenwriting contests now that producers really don't care if it's Austin or or the nickel. They care if it is anything else. There's not a whole lot of interest. And then the blacklist. Every once in a while, can do something on the blacklist, not very often, because it's like anything else, it's you had the same chance as you do with a query or anything else. If you do well, that doesn't mean that somebody's going to option your thing, and then you can do well and and sometimes somebody will option something, but then again, a lot of most options still get made. So it's, it's, it's a it's trial and error, it's being organized, and it's a. Figuring out how to network. You can net work on Twitter. You can network on Facebook. I've met a lot of really wonderful people on the writing in the writing group on on Facebook, and I've met some incredible people who are going to be my lifelong friends on Twitter, who are, who are really some fine, fine writers that I really respect. So you just never know.

Dave Bullis 1:05:28
Yeah, that's very true, Bob. I mean, hey, look, we're friends. And you know, we were friends for a while, and you know now we're, we're being able to chat like this,

Bob Saenz 1:05:38
Which is great. I like your like I said before, I really like your podcast. You you ask good questions, and you listen and you ask good follow up questions, and you have interesting people on. They can't ask for more than that.

Dave Bullis 1:05:53
Oh, thank you, Bob. I really appreciate that. And it's, it's always good having, you know, amazing guests like you on, and, no, I mean, seriously. I mean, I'm sorry Bob?

Bob Saenz 1:06:03
I met, I had a young writer who wanted to come and have and have a drink with me. Last I was in LA and I it was late at night, and I said, Yes, I'd be happy to and he comes in and he says, Look, I'm just so in awe and all this stuff. And I said, stop, stop. I don't, I don't handle that well behind that doesn't work for me. Let's just sit like a couple of guys and talk about right and and that's Thank you for saying I'm amazing. I just, I just, I am. I am, who I am, and it doesn't change from, you know, from person to person and and I love what I do, and I had so much incredible help when I was first getting started by some phenomenally talented, wonderfully influential people, that the least that I can do, as far as I'm concerned, is to give some of it back.

Dave Bullis 1:07:07
And we're all very appreciative of that, Bob, because, you know, I'm always fortunate again to find guests like that, who who are very interested in sort of doing, you know, podcasts like like mine, and, you know, trying to give back and and sharing the knowledge and the wisdom from from climbing those mountaintops, so to speak. And I've been very fortunate. I've had a lot of great guests on, yeah, so it's, it's, it's been, it's been a long journey.

Bob Saenz 1:07:34
It's great. We'll keep it up. I will continue to listen and and thanks for having me on. I really, I really appreciate it. It's, it's, I enjoy doing things like this. It's, it's always fun.

Bob Saenz 1:07:45
Bob, where can people find you out online?

Bob Saenz 1:07:49
You can find me online at, at, B, O, B, S and Z, at, on Twitter, I have a blog that I am not really good about keeping up with all the time. But some, some buddy that rates screenwriting blogs somewhere rated me in the top 10, which I was amazed at. And it's called, it's Bob Saenz B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z.com/blog, and I'm on Facebook, but and at Bob Saenz, B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z, and I will, and I'm not, I know, and I'm not the Bob Saenz, who's the insurance salesman in Texas?

Dave Bullis 1:08:36
Oh, that's who I thought I was talking to. Yeah, damn, I I will link to all that in the show notes everyone, by the way, so everyone who wants to talk to Bob, I'm going to link to all that.

Bob Saenz 1:08:49
Yeah, and, and, and you can actually, I have a, I have a business email which is, which is on my website. So it's not anything that is, isn't out there. It's Bob at, bobsaenz.com,

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
Bob Saenz, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and this has been an absolute blast.

Bob Saenz 1:09:18
My pleasure. Thank you for having me

Dave Bullis 1:09:21
Take care, Bob.

Bob Saenz 1:09:23
Thank you. Bye!

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BPS 452: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac

January 1, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On this episode, we sit down with Danny Mac, a Canadian filmmaker, actor, and producer whose story is a masterclass in indie filmmaking grit. Best known for his mockumentary Heel Kick!, Danny proves that passion and persistence can turn any dream—no matter how outlandish—into cinematic reality. Without the luxury of film school or industry connections, Danny started his filmmaking journey in Edmonton, Alberta, a city without much of a film scene. With determination as his tuition, he taught himself the craft by writing, producing, and shooting his first feature, Love/Hate, entirely on weekends while working full-time during the week. That film, made with a mere $40,000 budget scraped from his and his co-producer’s life savings, became his film school—and, against all odds, it sold to a Canadian broadcaster, allowing him to break even on his very first project.

Danny’s path wasn’t without struggle. As a first-time filmmaker, he wore every hat imaginable—writer, producer, actor, and sometimes even location scout and transporter. The grueling process taught him one thing: passion can push you through exhaustion, but preparation and teamwork are what truly make a film succeed. His next project, Heel Kick!, would be an evolution of everything he learned—bigger in ambition, sharper in execution, but still rooted in the DIY spirit of indie film.

Heel Kick! follows two backyard wrestlers who decide to “go pro” after years of goofing off, only to discover how brutally difficult the dream really is. Inspired by Danny’s childhood fascination with wrestling and his cousin’s real-life experiences at a wrestling academy, the film explores both the absurdity and humanity of chasing an impossible goal. What makes the story shine is its authenticity—Danny and his co-star actually trained at a professional wrestling school for six months to perform the stunts themselves. This dedication gives Heel Kick! a raw, physical realism rarely seen in low-budget comedies.

When it came to funding and promotion, Danny combined old-school hustle with modern strategy. He launched a short GoFundMe campaign—not to start filming, but to finish it. Since the movie was already complete, fans could trust that their donations were going toward its release and screenings. That transparency paid off—literally. In just three weeks, he raised $12,000 to cover post-production and distribution costs. And while many filmmakers dread crowdfunding, Danny approached it with honesty and gratitude, proving that if you show people real progress, they’ll show you real support.

Danny also secured the backing of Greg Miller, a YouTube and gaming personality known for his Kinda Funny network. Their friendship began after a charity event in Vancouver and evolved into a partnership when Greg joined as co-producer to help spread the word. His involvement brought Heel Kick! a new wave of attention, particularly from online audiences passionate about wrestling and indie entertainment.

Ultimately, Danny Mac’s story is about more than filmmaking—it’s about perseverance, community, and creative resourcefulness. His success with Heel Kick! reminds filmmakers everywhere that you don’t need a massive budget or a Hollywood connection to tell a great story. You just need to believe in your vision, work harder than anyone else, and embrace every lesson along the way. Whether you’re wrestling in a ring or fighting for your first film, the key to victory is the same: never tap out.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:03
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
I have a Canadian filmmaker, actor and producer. He produced a film and actually started as well and directed it. That it's, you know, very close to what I talk about a lot on here. Lot on here. And, you know, it's pro wrestling in one way or another. I know I don't talk a lot about pro wrestling because I don't watch it in years, but when I was growing up, I watched it a ton, probably way too much. So we just had Nick, Nick Mondo on, who was a professional wrestler turned filmmaker. We've had a few other filmmaking projects here and there that involve pro wrestling, but this one is a unique one onto itself, because it really involves backyard wrestling. And I love the tagline for the film too. It's unprofessional wrestling, which is which is a genius tagline. So we're going to talk all about this new film, heel kick, which is actually going through a little tour right now, and then it'll be out later this year. And we're also going to talk about how my next guest actually made money with this with his first film, believe it or not, which is just crazy to think of, right making money with your first film. We're going to talk about all that stuff, film school, networking, finding contacts, and we go with a lot of really cool producing stuff in this too. And we talk about pro wrestling with guest Danny Mac.

Danny Mac 3:05
I did not go to film school, and it is something that I knew I wanted to do when I was growing up, but it just seemed too insurmountable and too difficult. You're talking to me now from Edmonton, Alberta, where I grew up. I'm just back here for my grandma's 100th birthday, and then I'll be back to Vancouver tonight. But growing up here, where there's essentially no film scene, and it does have a fairly decent theater community, but really, film and television, there's not nothing, and there's no one who's doing it. So I, you know, I didn't have any inspiration surrounding me, and the prices for film school were really high, and it's something that my mom and I were looking at when I was 15 or 16, because clearly I had an interest in it, and I needed some sort of creative outlet, because I was, you know, kind of just being a little brat of a kid, but it seemed too expensive. And yeah, like I said, there was just nothing around me to indicate that it was something that that I could pull off. So I kind of like, let it I wouldn't want to say, let the dream die. But, you know, I went to university, and I still hadn't picked a major or a minor after like, two or three years, and I was taking a lot of studies, you know, acting because I liked it. So I was training here and there, but I finally realized, you know, I could probably just make a movie myself. And so began the journey of me producing my own projects.

Dave Bullis 4:32
So when you actually wanted to make your own movie, like, what were the some of the first things that you did to sort of take those steps to actually make that movie?

Danny Mac 4:40
Well, we myself and my one of the co stars in heel kick and and my fellow producer, Cooper B Bo, we would look at scripts to get an idea of how to format them and how they were written. And then we, you know, just started to have writing sessions together. And. Anyone who would want to work on something creative, we would. So we were writing sketches for the fringe film play Theater Festival that we have here in Edmonton, and anyone who wanted to do something, you know, and throw it up on YouTube, we were contributing. But he and I were really interested in writing feature films. And then, because, you know, we're we're actors and we're writers, but we don't really know anything about the technical aspect of filmmaking, we would seek out people who were in film school and ask them if they would want to come help us shoot something. And since we were somebody, the only people making an independent feature film in the city, we got a lot of attention right away, and before we knew it, we had a film crew on board, and they were helping us shoot our first feature film, and this was back in 2011

Dave Bullis 5:51
So when you were actually you got all that attention. Have you know? Have has things changed then? So, like, I mean, you know what I mean? Like, everybody you know who has an iPhone now as a filmmaker. So have you noticed, have things actually changed where it's become passe, or maybe it's become the point where it's like an LA, where it's a pain in the ass? I mean, have you noticed any difference

Danny Mac 6:11
Just in regards to, like, the amount of people who are making film you mean?

Dave Bullis 6:15
Yeah, exactly, and you're in your area.

Danny Mac 6:17
Well, I mean, yes and no, because Vancouver is a pretty big film city. A lot of stuff is filmed there. It's a big service city, so a lot of big productions come through there and then. And you know, Vancouver actors will help round out and fill out some of the roles that are needed or in. The crew gets a lot of work down there as well. But, yeah, it's funny how you say everyone with an iPhone can be a filmmaker, and that's true, and I think it's so much easier for people to make films these days, but the amount of drive and determination that it takes to pull something like that off that doesn't change. It's still back breaking, and it's still a serious commitment of, if not money, seriously time. So while it's easier than ever, I don't think more people than ever are actually doing it. Because you know what, I mean, it's tough to take that plunge. And you know, first of all, it's tough to sit down and write a film, it's tough to assemble a crew and a cast, and it's tough to shoot the thing and then edit it and then sell it. So, you know, as much as we have the resources available to us, I actually don't see people taking advantage of it that much. Because I think people do understand how much work it is, and that's kind of a scary like, it's a turn off for people.

Dave Bullis 7:29
Yeah, it's true. And, you know, when I, when I say, Everyone who thinks, who has an iPhone is, you know, considers themselves a filmmaker, it's just because, you know, it's kind of like that idea, you know, I mean, I've done commercial work to work, commercial videography work. And, you know, the guy's like, hey, my son or daughter's got an iPhone. Why should I hire you? Or, you know, people who want to start their own vlog on YouTube or but, yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. You know, it does still take all that time and planning and effort, which is why most movies don't get made, right? They, they're, you know, nobody is normal who actually makes a film normal is sitting on your call talking about making a movie, right Danny?

Danny Mac 8:04
Yeah, everyone on earth has done that. I got a great idea for a movie or a book or a TV show or whatever. Everyone has said that at one point in their life, it only takes truly insane people to, you know, think that that's something they should actually try to do for a living.

Dave Bullis 8:18
You know, it was funny. I one time I actually came home from a shoot one day and I was so tired I just wanted to shower another shower. I already taken one that day. But, you know, it was that long ass day, and I sort of plopped down the couch and a friend of mine, you know, came over, and he was like, oh, you know, what were you doing today? And Bob blind, he goes, Oh, man, I got this idea for a movie. And I'm like, I don't want to ever talk about movies again. I said I am so tired right now, like I'm just aching all over. I was sunburned, yeah, and

Danny Mac 8:51
That eventually happens. Like people say, You know what would be a great idea? And you're like, you know what I mean? Bringing my own idea to life, it's stressing me out. So please keep your ideas to yourself at this point, because I can't help you. My I'm losing my mind working on my own projects as a sad it's sad to say, but yeah, I definitely hear you.

Dave Bullis 9:12
Yeah, it's that whole idea of like, that friend that's always like, hey, you know, we're a friend from high school. Do you get that? By the way, I don't, I don't talk about that a lot, but I have friends from high school who constantly send me messages about some script or or an idea that, or they are. One wanted to shoot a zombie film in the woods and he wanted my advice. And I'm like, you've never talked to me ever, unless you need something. So I'm like, Why the hell would I help you? You know what? I mean? It's just, it's just so, it's so, like, phony. You know,

Danny Mac 9:42
I get a lot of that, but some people reach out. And I don't think it's that they necessarily, like, want something from me, but at the same time they are like, I got a great idea for a thing, all you would have to do is write it and produce it and shoot it and get the money together. I'm like, Are you insane? Like, there's absolutely and, you know, I don't have a shortage of ideas myself, you know, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do next and what I'm going to put out there. So someone with zero experience company is saying, like, I got a great idea, and you haven't talked to them in a long time. Yeah, it can be frustrating. God bless them, though. God bless them.

Dave Bullis 10:28
Yeah, it's, it's that whole idea of, well, you know what's so complicated about this? You have all the connections. And I'd sit there and I go, guys, it just doesn't work like that. And I get a lot of, see, I'm glad that you understand what I'm talking about. You know, you know, you and you get that a lot, because I've had girls too, that I went to high school with who want to be, quote, unquote, actresses. And they don't really want to be actresses, you know, they want to show up to set or wherever and take pictures of themselves so people can tell them how beautiful they are.

Danny Mac 10:54
Yeah, there's really, and, you know, there's nothing glamorous about like, the job of an actor, really, if you are an actor, there's so many moments where you're like, what the hell this is not what I thought it would be, but you have to love it. And I do. But yeah, when I really explain to people, like, what my day is like when I'm on set, either for a commercial or a TV show or something, it's, uh, yeah, it's really a kick in the pants, I think.

Dave Bullis 11:21
So, you know, when you we started in 2011 when you started making your own film, your first film, you know, and you put everything together, you know, did you have any of this culture shock that we're talking about right now where you were like, oh my god, what the hell do I get myself into?

Danny Mac 11:37
Yeah, absolutely. And pardon me, I got the date wrong. It was back in 2009 we started writing it, and we shot it in 2010 and, yeah, holy crap. I could not believe how long the days were, how long it took to get shots set up. You know, I just, you don't understand. And especially I'd never been to film school, so that was my film school, and I would have quit because it was just so intense and there was so much work, but Cooper and I put our life savings into the movie, and we completely funded it ourselves. So we kept working our regular jobs Monday to Friday, and then, because we couldn't afford to pay anyone, we could only shoot the movie Friday night, all of Saturday, all of Sunday, and then we'd go back to work, we'd only shoot weekends. And like, I was so drained I could not believe how tired I was, and I was almost so exhausted that quitting would have required more thought and effort than just staying the course. So we ended up finishing it. But yeah, just when I say that, like that first film was my film school. I really believe that, because Trial by Fire is is the only way that I've really stuck to things and learned in my life. I've found and yeah, it really prepares you for, like, what, what the career is going to be like. Of course, you improve the next time around. We made a ton of mistakes, but, you know, learning from them. And going forward, there's no better way to do it, I think

Dave Bullis 13:03
So what was the biggest obstacle you faced when making that movie? Like, was there one day or one thing that happened where you were like, I think I'm done,

Danny Mac 13:13
Hmm, I mean that I feel like every, every day, honestly, like, somehow, and this is crazy. And really, the money was our, like, least, like we were always worried about the money, because, literally, it was just his and my life savings. We both put $20,000 up to make this $40,000 feature. But there was sort of nothing to worry about, because we had the money like, we didn't have to go knock on any doors for more. So, oddly enough, the money wasn't the biggest problem, but the biggest problem, but the biggest problem was, was that we were producing a film, and we'd never done that before. We never made a short Well, we had made a short film before, but like that took that, took an afternoon, and like this was just so intense. So yeah, we we were just we were faced with obstacles every day, like we didn't like transportation, and getting everything to our certain locations was rough, and who was going to return all the gear? And, like, there was just things we didn't know that were actual things that you had to do on set. And so we had, we didn't delegate properly, so it would just be, like, day one, there's like 90 things that are undone that we need to just assign to people to start doing. And because we were the producers, and we couldn't pay anyone. We had to do all those things ourselves. So while money wasn't an issue, if you're not paying anyone, you're not going to get any extra out of anyone. You know, they were just doing it for the experience. So we took on way too much, and that was probably why, you know, I can't even pick a specific thing, but really, the umbrella of all the problems is that we just wore way too many hats, and we juggled too many things.

Dave Bullis 14:44
And you see Danny, I think that happens to a lot of filmmakers you see, because everything is a little more accessible, quote, unquote, you know, with whether there would be a camera, or maybe it be, you know, a way to storyboard, or whether it be, hey, listen, I have an idea. I mean, you know what? I mean, you kind of build up this confidence to go in there and do it. But I think when you wear so many hats, you kind of it all hits you when you're trying to do two things at once. And I can tell you, I remember I was on a I was doing one of my films, one of my student films, and I remember somebody had backed out who was supposed to be, like, my location manager slash like UPM, and everybody instead was calling me now as I'm trying to direct the scene for like, directions, questions about stuff. Hey, you know what I mean? And I'm just like, Guys, I'm trying to direct a freaking scene here, and I'm trying to talk to the cinematographer, and I'm trying to do this. And people are coming up and asked me questions. People were coming up because they the people who had the location. There was, like, other stuff going on. So people were walking in the room going, Oh, is there? Are you guys filming here? Like, oh, Jesus Christ. Shoot me. Now. What did I do to myself?

Danny Mac 15:55
I got a funny story. Our very first day on set, we actually didn't have the permits to shoot in the park that we were shooting in and I didn't know this, so someone like a park ranger came up to our director and was like, Hey, do you have permits to shoot here? And he was just petrified, and the only thing he could think to say was the name of the person he was supposed to email to get the permits that he never actually did. And let's say that person's name was Alex. So this park ranger comes up to our director our first day on set. He's like, Hey, did you get the proper permits to be here? And all he says was, Alex, and then the park ranger somehow accepted that and was like, Okay, well, have a good shoot, and left us, but we could have been like, shut down before we begun. So God bless them for that one. I have no idea how we weaseled our way out of that situation, but

Dave Bullis 16:44
It's like one of those movie jokes, you know, where the character kind of just like, blurts out an answer by accident, like their own Jeopardy, and it's like, yeah, that's exactly it. That's the answer, yeah.

Danny Mac 16:57
Meanwhile, he's just like, breathing heavily and sweating his ass off because we almost lost everything.

Dave Bullis 17:05
And, you know, and see stuff like that, you know, I have a funny story. Happened. Didn't happen on one of my sets, but it was, I actually was, was visiting a set one day, and this, this kind of, like Park Ranger type of guy walks by, and he looks over and he just sees all these film cameras and gear and everything else. And immediately I'm like, Well, this this guy, I know these guys who are running this film set, who it's film it is. I know they don't have permits and and I look at the park ranger, and he's on a bike, and he just kind of looks around and just pedaled off and never said a word. And I think I'm thinking to myself, what made him not do this, like, what made him not want to get involved? And here's, there's two things that I think of that didn't that made him not want to get involved, as I kind of took a look around. Number one was there was probably, like 300 people there and just that, because it was a concert scene. And so there was a guy in an eight foot like monster costume just kind of rampaging around. And I think both of them, he's probably like, I don't even want to get involved and whatever the hell this is,

Danny Mac 18:10
Yeah, he could probably smell like the dreams that he would have crushed also, if he just followed up on it. I think that was a big part of it, too. This park ranger was like, You know what these kids look like they've got enough trouble already, as it is. So I'm just gonna bike away from the situation.

Dave Bullis 18:27
And we're right in Philadelphia too. We usually crush dreams here in Philadelphia. So you know that guy was the

Danny Mac 18:33
That, that is the city motto, isn't it? Where dreams go to be crushed, I believe.

Dave Bullis 18:37
Oh yeah, that, that hitchbot thing. It survived Canada and everything else. And then as soon as it came here was done, that's it. So Danny, would you after you got done making love, hate, which was your first film? How did you go about releasing the film, or even just marketing the film?

Danny Mac 18:56
That was another sort of I mean, we didn't do too much marketing, but we really got lucky on that one, because we were able to sell the film to a Canadian the on demand subscript or not subscription based, but transactional Video on Demand channel called Super channel. And the only thing that we had heard about it was that a guy that we knew apparently made a short film, and he sold it to them, and they gave him, like, $14,000 and we never confirmed this. We never looked into it. We didn't even talk to the guy. We're like, Oh, if he can do that, we can do it. So we proceeded to make this film. And then their head offices happened to be in Edmonton, where we shot love hate. And we literally just drove there one day. We google maps where their offices were. Cooper and myself just drove there in my old Honda accord with a Blu ray of our film. And we're like, hey, who can we talk to about buying our movie? They were like, I guess the acquisitions head is here. So we met with her, and she passed the film off to her team. And we got a call like a few weeks later, saying that they would, they would buy the movie off of us. And we ended up breaking even on our first project, just from that and a couple of theatrical screenings that we held ourselves.

Dave Bullis 20:20
I mean, that is a Hail Mary story, man, you know, you just, you threw it up there, But, see, but stories like that are a success. You know, that's what people aim for. You know, it's to do stuff like that. Hey, we sold our first movie, you know. Or we, you know, we did this, or we did that, you know, it's, it's funny. A guy I know actually used to work with Oren patelli, who did paranormal activity. And one day, I don't know if you ever seen the first or paranormal activity, but one day Oren came in and he said, guys, I just want to say it's been nice working with you. I actually just probably two weeks in. And they said, Oh, well, you know, what? Do you have another job? And he said, Well, actually, I just sold a movie to Steven Spielberg and and they were like, Yeah, right. Like, come on, what are you really doing? He goes, No. He goes, No. Like, I'm gonna be on all these web series, or not, web series, like, like, web interviews and stuff like that. And he goes, and I want to be on like, this channel. He was just, you know, that's it. Well, like, little by little, they started, like, all these interviews started popping up. And they were like, oh my god, this is amazing. But, I mean, it's stuff like that, you know, stories like that that, you know, it sort of keeps that indie film, indie film dream alive, you know, where you're able to actually, you know, do these things actually say, hey, look, we made our money back, or we made least some money, and now we can take that money and make another film,

Danny Mac 21:38
Exactly. And, yeah, when you say it was a Hail Mary, it absolutely was, because we were, you know, we had, we were just delusional. We thought that the movie was going to explode and we'd make so much money that our next film could be, like, triple the budget and and that it would be smooth sailing. And then, you know, we were able to sell it. And so we got national broadcast, and we, we made, like, a lot of money off of just three theatrical screenings that we did, and so we made our money back, plus maybe, like, I don't know, like, three grand each, and this was after like, three years work. So like, Whoopty do right? We were, like, upset. We were like, Man, I can't believe we only broke even. And other filmmakers like, we didn't realize how tough it was to, you know, get a broadcast deal and make your money back within like, six months of releasing your film and all these other filmmakers, like, are you insane that you're complaining right now? Like, you sold your first film and you made all your money back? Like, what is your problem? And now is I just, like, been in the industry so much longer. I was like, What a shitty little brat I was being complaining that we didn't, like, bring in heaps of cash from our little independent film. And, yeah, I'm just, you know, we did everything wrong, but it turned out all right for us in the end. So I'm really proud of our little effort that we put in back then.

Dave Bullis 22:50
And I'm also glad that you got my football reference too, because I, I mean, I know you're in Canada, and I'm like, wait a minute it. Will he understand the idea? Yeah, I'm glad you got that because you really

Danny Mac 23:01
Orange football here, there's nine downs before ball changes hands.

Dave Bullis 23:07
Well, I've actually been to Canada, and I saw a Toronto Argonauts game one time.

Danny Mac 23:12
Oh, the Argos. Yeah, that's right.

Dave Bullis 23:16
So, yeah. So it was just funny, though, because I was, you know, the NFL is not really popular outside of, outside of the USA, and I'm just like, Man, I always, I always got to watch my my slang. And even when I'm talking to other filmmakers from America, I got to watch my Philly slang. They don't say something weird, and they're like, Oh yeah, Dave, you know,

Danny Mac 23:35
I'm all over it. I got you

Dave Bullis 23:37
Wait we do. Just to go back to about love, hate. I mean, again, you know, selling your first film, that's huge. And I mean, now, I mean, because you sold that in like, 2010 2011 I mean, what do you think about the marketplace now, you know, even tying in with your new movie Hill kick about. I mean, what do you think the market is like now, do you think it's more crowded? Because I've had, I've heard a lot of different opinions and perspectives of this. Some people say, yeah, it's more crowded, but be but there's more avenues, and then the other, the other sort of option is, or the other perspective is, the good movies, no matter what, are always just going to rise in the top.

Danny Mac 24:15
I mean, I hope that that's the case, because, you know, then that means that people will see good films, and that will reward and that will, you know, teach people to make good projects. I don't know. I think that it's really exciting the time that we're in right now, especially with all the methods of self distribution available, that is really something that gets me excited about continuing down this path as an independent filmmaker and beyond. And while I do think there is a ton of just product out there, like there's so many shows and films, I do believe that the good ones rise to the top, and I think that you have to hold on to that, because I don't know what's what's the alternative thought on that that, you know, like a bad movie with great marketing. Will be the only thing that really matters one day. And you know, while that may be the case, I'm sure we've all heard a million things about a movie we don't care about in the independent scene, you have so much more leeway, I believe, and people aren't as tough on films. And you know, while you do have to have a thick skin, and everyone is going to have critics, it's kind of a nice community. You know, people are always willing to help each other and talk about their projects, and there's so many case studies. I think that's the coolest thing about it. People say, yeah, there's so many projects out there right now. It's such a cluttered marketplace. But if you're trying to produce an independent film, you can look at all of those things, and you can just case study them about what they did right and what they did wrong. And I'm sure everyone has, you know, I can't even tell you how many Kickstarter film projects that I've seen that just never got to production, that never saw the light of day, and that's useful information. And then all the ones that did make it, that's useful information. So, yes, the marketplace is cluttered, but I think for indie filmmakers, that's a good thing, because you can sit back and you can plot your course more effectively than you ever could before, and even just in 2011 when we sold that film, we like if that Head of Acquisitions wasn't based in our hometown, we never would have been able to drive there and use our just in person charm. If we did have it, then we certainly don't have much of it anymore, but I don't know if we could pull something like that off again. But like, there were just so many things that that added up, and if and if one of them fell through, we wouldn't have had any idea what to do, because we sold directly to the broadcaster. We did not get a distribution deal, nor did we even seek one out, because we were able to go direct to the broadcaster. So now, if we were in the same circumstance now, which I kind of am, with this film, at least, you wouldn't be completely screwed if, like, the one thing you know to get your film out there doesn't work. So it's exciting. There is a lot of noise, but you can learn from the noise. And that's that's good too, yeah.

Dave Bullis 27:00
And that's an excellent point, Danny. And you raise another excellent point too, and that is a lot of Kickstarters that don't actually see production and that happens. I mean, the most notorious of that is the video game industry, just because of all the things that happen in that industry. But you know, I've seen film projects that have crowdfunded and gone nowhere. I mean, some are some even famously, have been crowdfunded. And, you know, there's some pretty big people that have joined the crowdfunding spectrum. I won't name names, but they, they've taken some money and not and not produced anything. You know, I to me, I'm sorry, Danny,

Danny Mac 27:38
Oh, I just said, yikes. Yeah, that's, that's a bad, yeah, you don't like to hear that,

Dave Bullis 27:43
Yeah. I mean, it's just, I always wonder, I always wanted to bring one of them on this show. And just be like, you know, what the hell happened? Yeah, just be like, what did you really not have a plan? Did you guys just, like, throw this up and somebody donated like, 50 grand, you know, I Speaking of which. I had a friend of mine who started crowdfunding campaign in like, 2012 he had a mysterious benefactor, dead serious, give him $10,000 out of nowhere, just out of nowhere. And, I mean, he was like, he couldn't figure out who it was. Nobody would Yeah, it was just it was out of nowhere. And he actually was trying to figure out who the hell that was. And it just he never figured it out. And I was like, well, you guess you, you know, you have to make your movie now. And he kind of, like, he almost became paralyzed by trying to figure out who this was. Like,

Danny Mac 28:34
There's your movie.

Dave Bullis 28:37
He was, like, more adamant about He's like, he's like, all right, I got to figure out who has the resources to give me $10,000 and not miss it. And I'm just like, make your movie. Who the hell cares about?

Danny Mac 28:47
Like, that's a sweet ass problem to have, my friend.

Dave Bullis 28:52
No, that's, I mean, how would that even sound if you said that? Oh, man, I got this bad problem. Oh, Danny, what's what's the problem? Oh, some random dude gave me 10 grand to make a film.

Danny Mac 29:03
Yeah, it's keeping me up at night. I just can't figure out who's generous and loves me. It's just driving me insane. So we did crowdfunding for heel kick I should probably add, and I didn't want to do it. And crowdfunding is something that some like I believe in, and I appreciate it, but it's just something that I personally don't want to do, and I never wanted to do it. The only reason I did a GoFundMe campaign was because I was just screwed. But the advantage that I had was that my film was already shot, and I was able to release a trailer for it. So my whole GoFundMe approach was, hey, my movie's done. So there's a 100% chance that, if you donate to this, that it's not going to be lost in the abyss of, you know, indie filmmakers asking for money. And I released a trailer, and everyone could see that it was complete and that it was on its way. And I just said, Hey, we need to pay like you guys want to see it right, like we need to pay. For, you know, insurance. We need to pay for these theatrical screenings, because we're just four walling it, and if you guys give us a little bit of money, the film can be out right away. And if not, I just don't really know what to do. So we were able. We did an aggressive three week campaign, and we raised $12,000 and that finished off all the funds that we needed. And we were so proud of our community and our fans for helping us with that, but that people sort of were like, wow, I can't believe you pulled that off in just a few weeks. And I was, you know, but like I said, I was a little confused at first, too. I didn't really think it would go that well, but it's because we had the film in the can already, and people are getting really weary of Kickstarters and gofundmes and projects like this, because, you know, like we have just discussed, so many of them never see the light of day, and it's like, Why do I have to be supportive of something that I know isn't going to happen? To happen? And, you know? So I think people, when they're pursuing these crowdfunding avenues, they just, they really need to have their shit together, because it's going to sour it for other filmmakers. You know, imagine, like, knowing that you could produce something if you raised 20 grand. But people are just like, Oh yeah, right, buddy. Like, just like the other three I donated to, that's ruining it for everyone. So, you know, it's a tool, but it's too accessible. You know, it's just like a phone with a camera. Everyone can shoot a movie. That's why you got a lot of crappy movies out there. And it's like anyone can start a Kickstarter campaign for their film. That's why there's so many graveyards full of dead films that never saw the light of day.

Dave Bullis 31:43
Yeah, absolutely Danny. And you know, I actually knew a person who would go around from project to project, actually just doing crowdfunding campaigns. And like, her timeline was just nothing but pitching crowdfunding campaigns to people. And people are, like, tuning her out, like, all you do is promote, promote, promote, and like, half the time, you never even hear about the movie ever after she's done promoting it. So people just started tuning her out, left and right. And it's just like, it's that fine sort of ebbing and flowing. It's, it's kind of, you know, like in marketing, you can't just keep marketing to people because they start tuning out, you know, yeah, and that's what she was doing, and that's why I think, you know, a lot of times when I had a friend of mine who was on Twitter, and he said he followed a bunch of filmmakers, and he said, literally, half of my timeline is people crowdfunding projects, and he and he goes just to the point where it's like, almost unusable. And I said, you know, it's just the the industry and how it is sometimes, personally, you know, there's different. I mean, obviously there's, there's a lot of different ways of crowdfund. But personally, you know, I mean, I was guilty that in 2010 when I was crowdfunding as well. And I know it does get kind of, I don't want to say the word murky, but I might be, but, you know, to me, like, I like you were just saying, Danny, it does. Some people just don't want to ask people for money, or, you know, because it looks like online panhandling or something like that. You know what I mean? And I've had, I've had people, conversations with with with producers, or conversations with actors and stuff. And I said, you know, you guys have to put up the crowdfunding campaign too, or or whatever. And people were out and out and out refuse because of that. They would say, Oh, this is just online panhandling or whatever else. And I'm like, This is how you get indie films made. You know, it's funded by, you'd rather be funded by a crowd and funded by some producer who's going to tell you how to set up every single shot and How To Have and Have final edit. You know what I mean?

Danny Mac 33:31
Oh, it's so true. Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it'll get better or worse, but, you know, it now has never been a more important time to have it together as a filmmaker and have a plan that you are able to execute, and a worst case scenario that involves your film still getting made at the end of the day.

Dave Bullis 33:49
So speaking of films getting made at the end of the day, you made heel kick, which is about two backyard wrestlers. And I mean, honestly, before we get into it, could you actually just give us a brief synopsis about the film,

Danny Mac 34:01
Sure. Yeah, so heel kick is about two backyard wrestlers that decide to finally go pro after 10 years of procrastinating and saying that this is what they're destined to do in their life. The only problem is, is that they are terrible. They lack all athletic skill required to do such a thing, and they don't really have any intelligence or the drive you would need to go after such a grand dream. So it's a mockumentary, it's a comedy, and it follows Reggie and Maurice, two best friends, is they finally go to professional wrestling training at an academy called ECCW, which is a real wrestling Academy. And yeah, that's that's pretty much the black and white of it.

Dave Bullis 34:41
So, you know, when you actually sat down to actually start writing this thing, you know, what was the impetus for the the idea

Danny Mac 34:47
It came from a few different places. One, I was a huge wrestling fan between the ages of, like, eight and 13, and then I grew out of it, but I still stayed interested in the behind the scenes world of it. Yeah, and I like the business side of it, it was really interesting to me. So I would read wrestlers autobiographies, even though I wasn't absorbing like the product anymore, but so I always had a great respect for it. And then all of a sudden I, you know, I had all this knowledge about it. And they say, right? We know. And so that was one of the things that got me going. But another was that my older cousin, he also loved professional wrestling, but wanted to do it for a living. And he, you know, he's a really good looking dude, really well spoken. He's like, just pure muscle six foot three, and he went to train at the Lance Storm Academy in Calgary, Alberta, a prolific wrestling town, and that's a one of the places that really shipped guys off to the to the WWE, or the Fed, as they refer to it, if they're any good. And so my cousin went there, and he quit after just like a week. And I was like, Man, I you know, I couldn't believe it. This was like, what he'd been talking about his whole life. And it was so interesting to hear him tell me how it was different than he thought it would be and but even more that stuck with me is when he told me about some of the other kids in the class who just were delusional about their, you know, like, about their basically, their odds of making it in the business. Because you can just tell when people don't have that drive, or don't have what it takes to do something, and not like he was putting any anyone down. There was a lot of great talent in the class as well, but I just couldn't get that out of my mind. The idea of two people who are attempting something that, you know, have no idea how tough it's actually going to be. And so that is sort of where the idea for heel kick came.

Dave Bullis 36:37
You know, I like that, by the way. The experience of hearing what he went, how he went there, and, you know, what he found out. Because I think that's a lot of times people have an idea of what something's going to be, and then when they finally get that, you know, that expectation and when then reality finally hits, they're like, this isn't what I really wanted, you know, I didn't really want to, you know, I thought training was gonna be a little different, or I thought this experience would be a little better or, you know, and you meet people too, who have that expert, who have that unreal expectations of what this is going to give to them, or they're, you know what I mean, and, and you find that in film too, where, you know, somebody thinks they're gonna make a film, you know, in the living room with an iPhone and win Sundance. You know what I mean, it's like, how many times have you heard that? You know? So it's, but it was, it's stuff like that. I mean, that's why I really am glad you. Yeah, we got into telling this story because it adds to the to the movie itself. Because, actually, I used to do backyard wrestling back here in Philadelphia, and I so the movie kind of speaks to me. Now, honestly, Danny, I haven't seen the movie yet, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a note to actually make sure I check this movie out, because obviously it fits right in my wheelhouse. But, but like you, I fell out of love with wrestling a long while ago, and, but again, it's still fun to, you know, see movies like this about, you know, backyard wrestling or or, you know, movies like The Wrestler and stuff like that. You know, it's kind of cool to see that, you know, this stuff that we used to be into, and, you know, as long as it's a good story with it, and that, you know, it's not all about that, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's all good,

Danny Mac 38:05
Absolutely, yeah, this is kind of the wrestling movie that I wished was around when I was really, really into wrestling. And it's been cool to screen the film around North America and have, like, real hardcore wrestling fans tell me that as well. It means a lot. And wrestling is such a an amazing subculture, and you can go deep down the rabbit hole of learning about it and exploring what that world is like, and it was just so fun to get back into it, not to mention the fact that I literally had to train because I play one of the backyard wrestlers in the movies. So

Dave Bullis 38:37
So did you like train by like, getting hit with, like, light tubes and going through tables days.

Danny Mac 38:44
Well, we actually, I mean, the film starts with these guys are more like fans than anything. You know, they're just classic procrastinators that they pretty much just goof off all day. And then they're one of the the guy who plays my brother, Matthew Graham. He he challenges us. He says, I'll pay for your wrestling school, but you have to go to class every day, and you have to improve and and if you, if you can't do it, if you can't show that you're you got what it takes, then you've got to, you know, give up on this wrestling dream forever and just get a real job and and move on with your life. So that's when they start going to wrestling school. And so I wanted to show real progression, so I placed myself and Chris Wilcox, who plays Maurice, the other backyard wrestler. I placed us in an actual training program with a real wrestling Academy called ECCW based in Vancouver, and they operate all over the Pacific Northwest, and some really talent comes out of there. I don't know if you know Kyle O'Reilly, who's just joined up in NXT the other day, and he's big on the indie scene. And, you know, just tons of great talent go through there, and still go through there. But we were actually training for six months to prepare for what we do in the film. So, yeah, we didn't tell anyone that we were doing it for a movie. Only very few people knew, because we didn't want to get treated any differently. So eventually they found out you do form, you know, serious bonds with these with the people in class and the people that are training you after a few months, which you should, when you're like, dropping each other on your spine 40 times a day, you should probably get close to those people and make sure they're on your good side. But, yeah, so, so I actually had to train to become a professional wrestler for it. And it was, you know, talk about things being different than you thought they would be, oh, man,

Dave Bullis 40:44
So with your experience on love and hate, what was some of the things that you took in a heel kick like? Was it about, you know, not wearing too many hats? You know, was it maybe doing things a little bit differently in terms of, like, planning or even marketing?

Danny Mac 40:59
Marketing, definitely, because the whole world of film marketing changed from 2010 to now. So that was just something that I never had to worry about before, but I tried to educate myself on that as best as possible. And our CO producer on the film is Greg Miller, and he's a really big name in the entertainment world, and he's a YouTube star and really big in the video game world, and he just has a huge love for professional wrestling. And he and I became friends a few years ago, and so he's been spreading the word about the film as as the CO producer, getting it out there. So he's been, you know, he's sort of our human megaphone. I like to refer to him that way, and he's really helped us get butts in the seats at these screenings and have people find out about the film in regards to wearing a lot of hats, I still did that. I was still the writer, the lead, the co director and the producer on this project, and I was in the editing room for every frame of the film. And not to mention the fact that I was, you know, working out and training at a professional wrestling Academy for six months as well. But think the difference was just getting a little bit more money together so you can pay people enough that make that your film is their main priority. Because that was the biggest takeaway from love hate, was that when everyone's got their other job, and when you can't afford to pay anyone, you know, everyone's still committed, and they want and they want to help you out, but when it's their job, it's a whole it's a different story, right? Like everyone's going to be there, and nothing can take them away from that place. And you also aren't working on people's free time. Their free time is when they're off of your set. And you know, it seems simple, but that was really the biggest takeaway. If someone was going to be there more than a couple of days for the shoot, it was they were going to get paid for it, and it was going to be their job. And so with that, said, I could wear all those hats. And you know, there's something to be said for stepping back and and sharing the responsibility. But, and I certainly did that, even though it sounds like I wore all these hats. But you know, if you have a vision for something, you might as well wear as many hats as you possibly. Can, because, you know, you don't want to delegate something off to somebody who's not as passionate about the project as you are, because it's going to lose its voice. So people are like, man, you did a lot in this movie. And I was like, Yeah, well, you know, I had a very certain way that I wanted to say things, so it was just kind of a no brainer for me, really,

Dave Bullis 43:20
And see. So I want to ask is, how did you go about getting George as a producer, and also, like, when you talk about, you know, having money to pay people, did you actually, you know, go out and put together, like, a pitch packet to find different people and and sort of say, like, you know, this is what we did with love hate, and, you know, this is what we could do with this movie if we had just a little bit more money?

Danny Mac 43:40
Exactly! Yeah, basically, I put together a little, a little plan, and I sent it to pretty much everyone I knew who I figured could spare, like, a couple $1,000 and they wouldn't, you know, if they never made their money back, they wouldn't hate me, or they wouldn't have to sell their home, or something like that. So I put together a package. I told everyone, you know, what I did with love, hate, with extremely little resources and and how I could capitalize on another film today with much greater success. And we never, you know, we never even sold DVDs of our first film. We didn't do anything else with it after that, because it just became so much work we wanted to move on to other projects. So it was pretty easy to convince people to come on board with this one, especially after they read the script and they thought it was really funny and really touching, and they liked it, and that was pretty much it for that. And then in regards to getting Greg Miller on board, we Cooper and I threw a charity Mario Kart tournament in at this pub in Vancouver, where we live, and we flew celebrities from the gaming world out. So we had cause players come out. We had game developers, and we got in touch with Greg Miller, who was just leaving his job at IGN at the time, I think he was the senior PlayStation editor, and we had him come out, and he we formed a friendship. Air, and we just stayed in touch ever since. And then the closer we got, the more I realized how heel kick was something that would be like right up his alley. And I asked if he wanted to come on as a co producer and help spread the word about the film. And he said yes, and so that's how we've been getting the word out ever since.

Dave Bullis 45:17
Now I see that that's absolutely fantastic, by the way. Actually, called him George instead of Greg. I don't know why. I don't know what they got George from. Sorry about that, but, but see that, that that stuff like that. You see, I always have a saying, you know, your net worth is your network and being able just to go up to people. And you know, it's kind of like what Sam Raimi did, honestly, Danny with with the first Evil Dead he went to different people, and they each kicked in a little bit of money. And that's how he made the film, you know, rather than having one investor who gives it's kind of like that idea, you know, do you want one investor to give you a million dollars, or do you want a million investors to give you $1 Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like, you know, there's pros and cons to each and obviously, you know, I and honestly, with doing this podcast, I've heard both and everything in between, but using that, you know, and using your network and then able to get somebody like Greg and as forming a relationship with Him. And, you know, just for everyone listening to Danny, let me, I just want to pick your brain about this really quickly, for somebody who was thinking about maybe pitching a YouTube star or pitching somebody else? What are some of the tips you have for them be? I mean, because we've all seen that mistake where it's like, they meet somebody that they want to work with, and the first thing they do is, like, you have to help me. Please. God. Do you have any like, tips or anything on like, networking or even pitching that you know you could just give to the listeners,

Danny Mac 46:42
I would say. And I think the people who are the best at this would tell you the same thing, and it's that don't pester people right out of the gate. You need to form, honest to God, relationships and bonds with people, and have things that you that you both like and share interest in. And then if something is a good fit, then I think you should have approached them otherwise, you know, just don't go, don't go ringing every doorbell that you can find asking for favors, like Greg and I, you know, like we flew him down to Vancouver for that thing, and that was just a party, and we raised like, $7,000 for the for the BC Children's Hospital. It was just a good time. And we stayed in touch after that. And, you know, I just presented him the movie, and he would keep telling me, like, anything you need for help on this thing, like, let me know. And you know, so it wasn't so much me asking him as him offering. And then I said, You know what, let's make it official. Let's make you a part of the team. So I think, just like, look for the signs. Like, some people will be interested in jumping on projects with you and others won't but in regards to, like, a YouTube celebrity, specifically, that is a thing that we're seeing a lot more of in the indie film world. I'm not sure if you've noticed it, but when I was at the AFM in Santa Monica two years ago, a lot of people's pitches like, weren't with movie stars anymore. It was with YouTube stars in the roles, and that they were coming on as producers and stuff like that. And I was like, wow, I just talked to like six filmmakers and and I didn't know half the names they were talking about, because they're not actors, they're they're online celebrities. And I think that's a trend that's going to be going up. So I would just say for that, remember, at the end of the day, your film has to be well acted. And it's seems like funny to say that, but, you know, a lot of people forget that. They just try and cram as many recognizable names into a project as possible. But like, just think of all the amazing talent that have been in a bad movie before. Like, you're not going to watch a bad movie with your favorite actor in it. And you know, I'm not saying that they would be giving a bad performance, but just things don't always come together, and that performance has to be there on screen. So I really like the idea of Greg coming on as a co producer, because what these people do best is build communities and and build awareness about things that they think are cool and and so I think that the capacity in which Greg has come on is a great way to involve some of these YouTube celebrities, because they're interested in production and film and stuff like that. You don't necessarily have to make them the star of your movie if that's something that you're not comfortable doing. And I'm not saying that internet celebrities aren't great performers. A lot of them are, but there's more than one way to include someone in your film to benefit, to benefit its longevity.

Dave Bullis 49:28
Yeah, you know, actually, we had Jason Brubaker on the podcast, and he actually was at the forefront of doing this. What he did was he got a bunch of YouTuber stars together, and he made Camp Dakota for Netflix, and they, it was a full YouTube stars, well, I have friends who were, you know, you know, they're probably, like, 10, 15, 20 years older than I am, and they all have kids and stuff like that. And the kids were like, oh my god, Camp Dakota's coming out. Like, what the hell is Camp Dakota? Who the hell are these people? Why is everyone caring about this movie? And it's like, because it's full of YouTube stars and, and that's they just packed it full of them, and it was like number one on Netflix when it came out. But I agree with you completely. By the way, you have to make sure that they can because, you know, if you do, like, a, maybe a five or 10 second video, hey, you know, that's, that's really cool. But, you know, imagine stretching that out to an hour and a half. You know, is that sustainable? Is this person sustainable? Because, you know, like, like we were just saying at the beginning of this interview, if they're not in, you know, if they're not around film, or know how this all works, I mean, you end up saying to them, Hey, listen, you used to spend an hour a day making a video that got a million hits. Well, now you're going to spend 16 hours on set, and we're going to be lucky to break even with this film.

Danny Mac 50:54
Yeah, it's just a completely different world. You're right, yeah. And Brubaker, Jason Brubaker is such a smart guy, too, and you see a lot of other people try to capitalize on that idea, and it doesn't always work out, but I do think that's going to be a serious trend in the film industry, and that's not going away anytime soon. So if you're going to, if that's what you're going to do, if you're going to include people from another industry that isn't the film industry, and bring them in to your film project, just make sure that you're doing it in the in the best way possible to service the film.

Dave Bullis 51:26
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and we've both seen movies that sort of fall into that whole like celebrity sort of trap. I mean, for instance, I had a friend of mine. He casted this girl specifically because of her social media following. And here's the kicker, she refused to promote the movie to her social media following. So it's yeah and, and it was like, and finally, begrudgingly, she finally did. And it got nothing like they had no analytics from it, because nobody really followed her to hear about some movie she was going to be in. They wanted to see photos of her, you know, in like, a bikini and stuff like that. She wasn't a YouTube star. I should have, I should have predicated everything with that. But she was like, you know, like a model and the heat area, yeah. And he was like, Oh, my God, this, if we get her in there, this is going to be awesome. And, you know, it just all filtered away. It just, it didn't really do much of anything. And people with lower numbers had much more engaged fans were like, We want to see this person as an actor, you know, we want to see this person in an actual film. And, you know, I said, you know, it does make sense, though, if you think about it, you know, if you follow, if some guy follows a model online, does he? Does he necessarily, would he pay to see her in a movie? And when he can get a photo of her for free, you know,

Danny Mac 52:41
Yeah, it doesn't translate. It really doesn't. And, yeah, hopefully people will figure out the best way to do it. I really love my relationship with Greg. Like, well, we are friends as well, but I think this is a cool project, and the way that and the way that he's helping spread the word about it is great. And, you know, his community is into this kind of stuff. Like, there's a lot of pro wrestling fans that follow him and the kind of funny group. So it was just a good fit, yeah? So if it wasn't, he wouldn't be involved. But, you know, who knows?

Dave Bullis 53:08
Yeah, and you know, just to going back to backyard wrestling and your movie, he'll kick you know, it is there is that wrestling industry. They, the fans are very loyal, especially the, you know that there's the hardcore fans who go to the indie shows every weekend, you know, just by again, I haven't seen the movie yet, you know. And I'll be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet. So I don't want to be one of those guys, Danny, who tries to, like, you know, fake it through. Like, you ever see those interviews where the guy clearly hasn't seen the movie? So questions like, Well, how did you do that thing? And it's like, it's like, but, but I can, you know, I can imagine this is a movie for them, because this, again, is a movie I would have wanted to see, in a way, because, you know, again, I used to be big into wrestling and do backyard wrestling stuff and do all that crazy nonsense that you look back on now, like, oh, my god, how am I not dead? But, you know, it's just that idea of two of going to these independent shows. And that's what I imagine. The two guys, the two leads are, are two guys, you know, aiming to, you know, get to the biggest, you know, the league in the land. But they have to, you know, train at the local, you know, wrestling school. They have to, you know, go into the and wrestle, and some of these indie promotions that. And again, it's probably not what they think it's going to be, you know, and because it's just, like, real life, you know,

Danny Mac 54:22
Very true. Yeah, I wanted to make a really realistic, like, you know, I don't want to make a movie where two guys decide to be wrestlers, and then, boom, they're fighting like Stone Cold Steve Austin and the Roth and the final scene, or whatever. I want to, you know, what happens when two guys want to be pro wrestlers? Well, first you research local wrestling academies, and then you see if they'll take you on, and then you pay your gym fees. And then if you're good enough, you get put into the show those and then you can start traveling around and doing it with other promotions, you know, like, I just wanted to really show off what it's actually like. And, you know, and people have told us, and a lot of people in the indie wrestling scene as well have told us that it's, it's really. True to form, but it's also, you know, it's got to be funny too. So there's, there's a few liberties, but really not too much at all. And I would leave out the training sections from the script until I trained more myself in real life, because I wanted my actual training to be reflected in in the film. So I was like, I wonder how this works when you're teaching someone how to do this, and then when you know, when the when the wrestlers would teach me how to do that, then I would put it into the movie.

Dave Bullis 55:25
And that's really cool. And I imagine too, when you were talking about to the actors that you know, you probably were like, Hey guys, you know, you'll probably have, you'll have to go through there, take a few bumps, and they have to be cool with it, you know what I mean, like, so it goes into sort of the whole idea of paying your dues for your craft, if you know what

Danny Mac 55:41
I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, the only people that really took bumps were besides the actual professional wrestlers that are in the film are myself and Chris will Cox, who plays the other wrestler, and I was, I don't even think I could have cast this movie if I had the money to because I don't know who would have done this. Like, when you see the film, you'll see there's a few moments in it, you're like, oh my god, that was pretty harsh. And the reason that you know it's it's just extra intense for an audience watching it is because you're comfortable watching a movie for the first act, and you're in your into the performers, and then all of a sudden they're doing things that you would see a stunt man do, and that was sort of where a production value would be, I figured, is that we would be doing all these things ourselves, and we shot the film for only $40,000 Canadian, which is another thing that I wanted to bring up, because when people ask me, like, How'd you get all the money together to shoot heel kick? And I was like, Well, we, you know, it's easy to get the money together when you're not asking for half a million dollars or $3 million dollars, or if you're, if you're not making, like, a big epic sci fi film, you know, like, I don't want to write something that I know I could never afford to get made. But anyway, back to my point, yeah, as a director, you probably shouldn't ask any actor to do anything you're not willing to do yourself. So I made sure to do all the worst things myself and share them, of course, with my co star credit.

Dave Bullis 57:04
And, you know, that's a good point too, because, you know, people write things that really, you know, sometimes they think they can shoot like a sci fi movie, 100 page sci fi movie, for like $10,000 and it's just like, or there was a person I knew who was trying to shoot a time traveling period piece for like, five grand. And I said you're gonna spend $5,000 in clothes alone, unless, of course, yeah, unless, of course, you travel back in time and you shoot it in a state park, and you also have one character dressed up in, like, in historical times, you know, regalia. And then it's even pushing it like, so it has to be like a very quick, quickly done and shot very, very carefully. So, because, if you, you know, if you have something in the background, like a skyscraper, or, you know, it's supposed to be a war going on, there's no, you know, there's no army or something, it looks it immediately. Just destroys the whole idea what you're trying to do,

Danny Mac 58:01
Yeah, you got to be careful about what you're planning on shooting, yeah.

Dave Bullis 58:05
So, yeah, it just, that's why, again, you know, we always have to have, you know, always aim high. But then always, you know, realize what you have access to, you know, make those lists of resources and stuff like that, you know. And so Danny, I wanted to ask you, where can people check out, he'll kick movie.

Danny Mac 58:22
So currently it's just, we're four walling a little theatrical tour around North America. So upcoming screenings are going to be there's going to be one in Saskatoon, there's going to be one in Portland, and most likely one in Seattle. And those are going to be over the next six or seven weeks. And then we are finally going to call it a day with our theatrical tour, and we're going to get the film out there onto iTunes. We're going to self distribute it, so we're using distributor, speaking of Jason Brubaker, so that is going to be what we're rolling out in the next little while here in the meantime, yeah, people can follow it at heel kick movie on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook,

Dave Bullis 59:02
Yeah, and very cool that you're touring with it. And yeah, Jason Brubaker, awesome guy. I'm so glad that you're using distributor. I'm telling you. I always tell people, if you really are confused about how to distribute your movie, go talk to Jason. Like Jason's so up, like, just straightforward with it too. He goes, Look, maybe you can just put a Buy Now button on a website. You know what I mean? And it's just, he's not he, even though he does work for the stripper, he's not always like, Oh, you got to go to the stripper or else. Blah, blah. He is, like, one of the straightest and most honest guys, and he's so knowledgeable, like you said, and he's a good guy to know,

Danny Mac 59:36
Yeah, he's a straight shooter, and he's a really good guy. I would recommend indie filmmakers think about using that platform, or other ones like it early, like while you're writing, because it's just going to make things so much easier if you know where what your film should wind up and what avenues you're going to take it down before you even start shooting.

Dave Bullis 1:00:07
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, Danny, we've been talking for about, I guess maybe about 55 minutes now, you know, is there anything in closing that you have any part, like Final thoughts, or anything you want to say, that we get a chance to or, or even just anything you want to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation? Period at the end of this whole conversation.

Danny Mac 1:00:24
Um, yeah. I mean, check out the trailer. If it seems like a movie that interests you. Follow us along. We're really active on social media, and we we always let people know where the film is going to be and when it's going to be out. And we'd love for people to watch it really do not have to know anything about professional wrestling at all to enjoy the film, that is. And that's me quoting hundreds of people who have seen it, who have no interest in professional wrestling, and that was just as important to us as making a film that hardcore wrestling fans would love as well. So we think we've struck the balance. Yeah, and you'll definitely get some last out of it. So I really hope people can check it out, and hopefully it is out there in the big, wide world of the internet's, um, early fall, maybe like early October.

Dave Bullis 1:01:11
And I'm gonna make sure to check out the movie when it comes out, Danny in October, because I do want to check this out again because it's right up my alleyway. And Danny, we'll find you out online.

Danny Mac 1:01:22
Online, they can find me at the_dannymac, pretty much everywhere.

Dave Bullis 1:01:26
Danny Mac, I want to say thank you so much for coming on and chat and he'll kick movie and all this good stuff, and everyone, everything that Danny and I talked about will be in the show notes at Dave bullis.com Danny, I wish you the best luck with heel kick movie, and I look forward to see we got coming out next, after, after, after. This is all said and done, all the dust settles, and you know, I want to see what you come out with next.

Danny Mac 1:01:49
Thanks very much. I'm end of the show, and I think it's a great tool for filmmakers to listen to. So I appreciate being on.

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BPS 451: Making Movies Without Sight: Inside the Creative Mind of Gough

December 25, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every once in a while, a filmmaker comes along whose story redefines what’s possible. On today’s episode, we meet Gough, the world’s first legally blind filmmaker to write, produce, edit, direct, and star in a feature film. Based in Australia, Gough’s journey isn’t just about overcoming obstacles—it’s about rewriting the rules of what it means to create. Through his production company, Beer Nuts Productions, he’s built a thriving career in comedy filmmaking, releasing over a dozen films, multiple books, and audio projects, all while turning disbelief into admiration.

Gough’s career began with rejection. After writing countless screenplays and sending them to production companies, distributors, and investors, he quickly realized that most people couldn’t see beyond his disability. “They knew I was blind and dismissed me out of hand,” he recalls. Instead of giving up, Gough did the unthinkable—he decided to make his own films from scratch. His first feature-length project, I Will Not Go Quietly, was a 90-minute documentary on disability and mental health. He shot, edited, and funded the entire film himself, interviewing experts, comedians, and teachers to shed light on how society perceives disability. It wasn’t just a film—it was a declaration of independence and proof that storytelling is about vision, not sight.

From there, Gough built momentum, producing a string of comedic short films that showcase his wit and unique storytelling style. Each project became a stepping stone for the next. Beer Nuts Productions evolved into a full-fledged creative hub, featuring 14 films, 7 audio downloads, and 5 books. His films—ranging from mockumentaries on the environment and fitness to satirical takes on the entertainment industry—reflect both his humor and sharp social commentary. “I just want to make people laugh and think,” he says. “Entertainment is about making people happy. That’s why I do what I do.”

Gough’s success didn’t come without challenges. As an independent creator, he faced the dual battles of production and promotion. While technology made filmmaking more accessible, marketing became the new battlefield. To stand out in a crowded digital landscape, he built a marketing team and launched campaigns across Facebook, Instagram, and traditional media outlets. His approach combines modern outreach with old-school persistence—podcast interviews, press releases, and direct audience engagement. “It’s never been easier to make a film,” Gough says, “but it’s never been harder to get it seen.”

What makes his work even more remarkable is his hands-on directing style. Despite his visual limitations, Gough has developed an intuitive approach to editing and performance. He directs actors by focusing on vocal tone, rhythm, and emotion rather than facial expressions. “I can tell by the sound if the performance is right,” he explains. With a trusted crew who understands his creative process, including his longtime editor Simon, he ensures that every cut, cue, and line lands perfectly. The result? Films that are not only technically solid but emotionally precise and deeply entertaining.

Beyond filmmaking, Gough is a storyteller, a humorist, and a living example of creative determination. He believes that ignorance about disability can be cured through education and empathy—and his films do exactly that. Whether he’s producing mockumentaries about modern life or stand-up-inspired sketches, his work carries the same message: limitations only exist if you let them.

From his first documentary to his recent comedy The Environment: The Real Truth, Gough continues to prove that filmmaking is an act of courage and imagination. His story is not one of pity or perseverance—it’s one of power, laughter, and possibility.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode of the podcast, I have a very special filmmaker, because he has a very special journey, a very special case, even more so than usual, because he's actually blind. This person is the first legally blind person to write, produce, edit, direct and start a feature film, which is the first time it's happened. I mean, you know, and then he's gone on to write, produce and direct many other projects, including a number of films, audio books and books. His film production company, beer nuts productions, has worked with some of Australia's finest actors, artists and production crew, and he has been able to, you know, he's doing, you know, following his dream, he's doing it right there in Australia. And that's one of the things about this podcast, is pulling people from all over the world, and it's seeing that all of the the great things are happening all over the place, and we talk all about that stuff, and how do you make a film when you're blind? And, you know, all the doors were closed in his face, and nobody really took him seriously. And now he's out there doing it, and now he's on this podcast with guest Gough. You know, by the way, you were actually the first person from Australia that I've actually had on the podcast.

Gough 3:03
Oh, I feel honored. I feel honored. So, yeah, you're making it global. Now you're going global.

Dave Bullis 3:11
Yeah, exactly. We've had Canadians on. I've had some British filmmakers on, and now, and I've had New Zealand filmmakers on, so now we're going to go to Australia now.

Gough 3:23
I'm a little upset that New Zealand came before Australia. I do have to say, I mean, you know, I don't know that that's quite I think you've got the order there a little bit mixed up, you know. So, because, obviously, in Australia, we make all of our jokes about New Zealanders, like you guys do about Canadians, you know. So, you know, I'm just a little bit upset that New Zealand came first.

Dave Bullis 3:45
I'm sorry, man, it what happened was I, she reached out to me, and that was our good friend at films PR, and she actually reached out to me and just said, Hey, Dave, would you want to do this? And I said, Sure. And I, you know what, I, you know what, golf. I did not think about it though. I should have, I should have said, I'm sorry, I have to have somebody on Australia first, and then I can have you on,

Gough 4:09
You'll know for next time.

Dave Bullis 4:11
Yeah, exactly. I'll make sure to make that. I'll never make that mistake again. I swear to God. So Gough, if we get started, you know, just discussing your career, you know, you have a very interesting, you know, backstory, because, you know, I've never had anyone on the show before that has that is actually legally blind, and you're a filmmaker, and, I mean, I think that is so unique and so just incredible. And I think, you know, a lot of people are interested to hear, you know, how you actually your process and how you work. So, so, just to get started, gov, you know how, when, when did you get started? Actually, you know, making films and making movies.

Gough 4:53
Well, Beer Nuts Productions, which is my production company, I started that back in 2006 So a long time ago now, and I first started like I had a bunch of scripts that I had written, and I was sending them out to distributors, networks, production companies, private investors. I mean, I was sending out what to play. You couldn't even imagine the places I was sending out pictures and scripts. And it became clear to me that nobody wanted to pick up my work, and it was based purely on the fact that they knew I had a disability, and they're like, Oh, he's blind. This is what the hell is this guy thinking? So, you know, they weren't, they weren't actually, you know, reading the work properly. They were just, you know, dismissing me out of hand. So in 2010 I thought, well, the best thing to do is to make a film myself, and I'll show them that I can actually do what I say I can do. So that's when I made my very first film, which was a 90 minute full length documentary all about disability and mental health called I will not go quietly. And so I did all of that myself. So I shot it myself. I've edited myself. I got the funds myself. You know, I bought my own equipment. I did, did the lot myself. And so I thought that would that that's part of the the narrative of the story of that particular documentary is, is actually showing that, yes, I can actually do what I say. I can do as well as obviously, we interview 24 experts like neurosurgeons and school teachers and psychologists and even comedians as well, to get their take on disability and mental health issues and stuff like that. So after I did the documentary, then I thought, well, you know, I want to keep going with doing what I'm doing. And so, yeah, I just started making my own, turning my scripts that I had that I was sending out. I thought, well, I'll just make them myself. And so I, yeah, I just funded them myself and started the the gravy train, so to speak.

Dave Bullis 6:53
So just to sort of take a step back, when you mentioned, when you were, you know, getting rejected, and they were sort of saying, hey, you know, what does this guy know? What you know? What kind of scripts were you writing? Was it like a full was it full length scripts, or was it like short film scripts?

Gough 7:08
I had everything, man. I mean, I've been writing ever since I was a little kid. So I had everything from TV series to short films to feature films, like things that were big budget and things that were tiny. And so I was sending out all different kinds of things to all different kinds of people. And, yeah, just putting together some what I thought were really strong pitches. And yeah, like I said, just nobody wanted to know. So I figured the, you know, I didn't want to give up. I mean, I figured I spent all this time writing, all this, this great work, you know, I want people to enjoy it and be entertained by what I do. So, you know, the best way to do it is to just do it myself. If they're not going to help me, then I'll just do it myself, pretty much.

Dave Bullis 7:51
Yeah, and that DYI attitude, the do it yourself. I think that that you know, as we're, you know, in 2017 that attitude is prevalent everywhere, because you can make your own film now, you know you can shoot it on a cell phone, as we've had Sean Baker, who did tangerine, he shot his film on a cell phone. You can distribute it yourself. Jason Brubaker on talking about that. So you know, things have definitely changed golf, where you can now do those types of things yourself. And you can be, you could be almost the one man army. You know what I mean? You can go out and produce your own material and say, You know what I can I can do this stuff, and, you know I am going to do it. And here it is.

Gough 8:32
Absolutely man. I couldn't agree more. Actually, there's a very famous Australian comedian, writer, producer, director, he'd done a bit of everything called Ian McFadden, who was huge in the 1980s on Australian television, and he now is a lecturer at university. And I remember meeting him one day, and he said to me, he said, Goss, it's never been easier to make because he was talking about TV. Said it's never been easier to make a TV show, but it's never been harder to get it out. And he's absolutely right. I mean, the equipment prices have gone down like you say. You can even shoot stuff with a cell phone if you want to. So that, I mean, so it's never been easier to make it and edit it and get it packaged and ready to go, but it's now so hard to get it out to the public, because it's hard for for you to promote your work and get the public to your particular website, you know, to your wherever you're housing your your gear. It's hard for them to for you to put your hand up in such a crowded marketplace and say, Look at me. Look at me. So it's never been easier to do it, but it's also never been harder to get your work out there for people to enjoy.

Dave Bullis 9:42
Yeah, it's the new war of eyeballs and ears and and you say, and you say, you know, how do I get people to see my stuff? How do I get people to listen to my stuff? How do I get people to read my stuff? You know, since content creation is increasing every every year, every month, every. Week. Every day, Every hour. It's like, you know, and there's so much stuff being, you know, out there, and the barriers are gone. And the sort of, you know, the barriers entry are gone. And now, you know, everyone has the internet. Well, well, for the time being, here in America, we all have the internet. I don't know if you, I don't know if you know this golf, but the they might end net neutrality here, and I don't know how that's going to play into content creation and all this stuff, but we'll see about that. But so, so, but just to sort of go back what I was talking about with everyone being able to make stuff, it's, it's the War of, you know, how do you stand out from the pack? So, you know, and I do want to talk also about your documentary, but as we're on this topic, you know, what are some of the things that you found golf that there that enable you to stand out and, sort of, you know, stand out from the pack.

Gough 11:01
Well, with each project I do, because I've done 14 films now, so with each film that I do, I do a reasonably heavy marketing campaign. I've got a young lady called Amy on board who helps me with all my marketing stuff. And so we do social media stuff, but we also do a lot of old school marketing campaigns. So we contact the media, you know, send out your press releases to to local media and international media, and even, like podcast like yourself and and, yeah, just, just contact as many media outlets as we can and try and get some some interview and some press that way, as well as, obviously, the social media kind of kind of angle as well. So, we sort of hit it in two ways. Is how we go about at the moment. So yeah, every time we do a film, we do a reasonably heavy kind of marketing campaign to go with each film.

Dave Bullis 11:51
So is there any particular like social media, channel or outlet that works best for you?

Gough 11:59
Well, I have found Facebook and Instagram to be the two best. But I mean, I've heard other people love Twitter and use Twitter a lot. I'm on Twitter, so if people jump on all of those platforms and type in beer nuts productions, obviously I'll come straight up, and I obviously encourage people to like, follow and share my social media pages. So yeah, just beer nuts productions. But yeah, I've found Facebook probably to be the best, and Instagram as well. But, I mean, I think it's a bit of horses for courses, you know, whatever you're doing. I mean, everybody's different in their genre, in their style and their way they go about doing things. I mean, so yeah, it's a little bit that works for me, but what works for me probably won't work for another guy. You know what I mean. So, yeah, but I have found them to be helpful, but you need to do more than that. You know? You can't just put something up on YouTube or put something up on Facebook and expect it to go insane. You know, you got to it's a full time job. Marketing is, that's why I had to hire somebody, because it really is. It's a full time gig, is marketing, and so you need, you need that extra help to make sure that people can enjoy your work. Because at the end of the day, what's the point in making something if people aren't going to enjoy it? I mean, that's the whole point of doing this, is so that you can entertain people and make people happy. I mean, that's why we all do what we do. So, you know, it's important that you get the work out there so people can enjoy it.

Dave Bullis 13:27
Yeah, I agree completely. Golf and, you know, it's And speaking of, you know, all these social media channels and stuff I wanted to ask, because I haven't had a chance to really ask anyone this yet. So you're very close, well, reasonably speaking, to China. And in China, the number one social media app is, is Weibo. Have you ever attempted to use like webo for anything? And the reason I bring that up was just because, you know, the country has, you know, I think a couple 100 million people on there. And I've always, I just as a marketer, you say to yourself, my God, a country that has 100 a couple 100 million people then, and it's legit, you know? And it just and it just keeps rising as China keeps pulling more and more people towards the city from rural areas, till they to maybe they can reach their full cap. But with so many people on that, have you ever attempted to try to use Webo.

Gough 14:21
I haven't. I'm sorry, yeah, no, I wish I could give you a really clever answer, but I can't. But no, it's No, I never have. It's not something that Amy and I have discussed, to be honest with you, I think mainly because we mainly go for English speaking audiences, for the simple reason is, you know, my films are mainly comedy base. Well, pretty much all of my work is comedy base. And so you really need to have a fairly good grasp of the English language. So we mainly go for, you know, your your western sort of country so to speak so you had more English speaking audience. But, I mean, it's something that we'd absolutely look into in the future. But yeah, for now, probably, probably not. But it's, you know, it's on it on the radar, absolutely, yeah.

Dave Bullis 15:07
I figured I'd ask. I mean, just because I've never had seen anyone actually use it yet, and I was just interested, you know, obviously, you know, just because anything that's a couple 100 million users, you're kind of like, well, I guess I should at least attempt to see what does he want to see? What this is about, you know, and you being a lot closer to China than I am and but, but, you know, as we sort of good, I just want to take a step back. I mean, I know we've kind of gone all the way to the marketing aspect of this, but, you know, with all your writing and everything, and you grew up with this love of writing. And you started to write all these screenplays and short film scripts. And you know, nobody, you know, like, like you just said, nobody really took you seriously, or nobody wanted to produce it. And you ended up making your own film, which ended up becoming, I will not go quietly. And you know, what was the impetus and where you finally said, you know, to yourself, I'm going to shoot, I'm going to prove them all wrong, and I'm just going to shoot this movie myself, and I'm just going to, I'm going to do it and I and I'm just going to move forward with this.

Gough 16:14
Yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah, pretty much out of frustration, you know, people just not understanding. I mean, there's a lot of ignorance in the world in regards to disability, but the good news is, is that ignorance is a curable disease. You know, all you need to do is get yourself educated, which is pretty easy to do in our day and age. So it came out through frustration of people just not understanding, you know, my disability and what I can and can't do. So I thought, well, if I use my own story as a template, and then, like I say, get a range of experts to talk with their knowledge on these subjects of disability and mental health, then yeah, I reckon I could make a pretty good film. And sure enough, I got myself my 90 minute feature out of it, which I'm really, really proud of. So yeah, that, like I said, That was back in 2010 so a little while ago now. But yeah, no, I'm very happy with how it turned out. But yeah, it was, it was all came about through basic frustration, really, and just not being able to be heard, I guess, really, yeah, and

Dave Bullis 17:17
I think a lot of people have felt that way, and also, and still feel that way. You know, when I read about different paths that we've all taken, and not only, not only guests on this podcast, but just hearing people from Hollywood, and hearing people in the indie film world from all over the world, you know, you start to see these, these different paths that people take. And there is always a time when people sort of say, You know what? There's, there's no it seems like every door is closed. You try to go this route and screw in competitions, and that that door is closed, you try to go to this route and you try to get film financing. And then, you know that door is closed because it was becomes like a catch 22 right? Golf, where it's like,

Gough 17:56
But you got to always find a way. Man, well, you know where there's a will, there's a way, you got to figure out that that's that's what it's about, though, because you're absolutely right. I mean, there's nothing more frustrating than and I'm sure a lot of your listeners who are filmmakers would absolutely agree with There's nothing more frustrating than knowing you're sitting on a really terrific script, a really great idea, and just people just aren't getting it for whatever reason. I've been maybe, maybe your pitch isn't as good as it should be, or maybe they're not reading it right, or they're not understanding a character, whatever the case may be. But you know, you're sitting on something great. So you just need to figure out, well, how can I get this now made? How can I get this out there? You know, What angle do I take because, I mean, that's the traditional way of making films. I mean, it doesn't really work for everybody, so you got to figure out, well, how can I get this done? So for me, it was, well, you know what? I'll fund it myself. You know, because the documentary, at the end of the day, a documentary, isn't that expensive to do because, I mean, once you get the equipment, you all you have to do is just organize the interviews that you want to do and get the clips that you need to get and put it together. I mean, it's not that difficult. I mean, there's no big stunts or special effects or anything like that that you have to worry about. So a documentary is a reasonably easy thing to do. And then, of course, the money that you make from that, then you can put to it, which is what I did, put towards your next project, and then the money you make from that, you put towards your next project. And before you know it, you're you're churning them out, which is absolutely what you want to do. So that's sort of how my business model has been. So with every project that I release, I get the money from that. I put it into the next project and hopefully make it bigger and better. And then, you know, I can get more money and make the next film bigger and better. And so that's the, that's sort of how I go about it, because that seems to work for me. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 19:48
It's like, what Walt Disney always said that, you know, he always, he only makes, he only makes movies so he can make more movies. And that's why he, you know, when the money would come in, you just take that and you put it towards your next project.

Gough 20:10
Absolutely, man, absolutely. I mean, and like, I love what I do. I really do. So, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to blow all my money on something, something that isn't going to be helpful to me. I mean, I want to keep I've got tons of scripts still to make, you know, I've still got lots of great ideas and still got lots of scripts that I need to make. So I'm going to keep going. You know, I'm not going to stop so, yeah, when, when people hit the website, the beanuts productions.com We'll see. You know, we've got five books, we got seven audio downloads, and we've got 14 films for people to enjoy. And so, yeah, we're just going to keep on keep on rocking them out as quickly as I possibly can.

Dave Bullis 20:52
And that's what you have to do. You have to keep that momentum going. And that's something I've found, is that once you hit something, even if it no matter what it is, even if it's a short film that that's that's 510, seconds, or or a podcast, whatever you have to keep that, that momentum going. Because if there's one thing I found golf, it's this confidence is, is a very hard thing to attain and very easy to lose. But once you have that confidence, and you can start keeping that momentum going, and it builds up. I mean, once you have confidence golf, you feel like you can conquer the world.

Gough 21:30
That's very true, but it's also the confidence of others. So for example, when I first did my first scripted projects, and not the documentary, when I did my first scripted film, like the talent agent. So I go about making a film like anybody else does. So, you know, I I contact all the talent agents around Brisbane and the Gold Coast, and I give them a brief of, you know, let's say, for example, I need a 30 year old guy, and he's got a look. He's playing a bad guy. So he's got to have, you know, an evil kind of look about him. He's got to look a bit dark and shady. So I'll send out my brief to the agents. They'll send me, you know, back a whole heap of actors who they've got on their books, who they think would suit. I do auditions. I hire the best actor. So I do it all how a proper film should be made. So the very first time I did that, man, I struggled so bad to get the agents to take me seriously. They're going, you're going to make a short film by like, with what you know, you've gonna fund it yourself, and you got a couple of crew members. I mean, that, you know, they didn't really take me seriously. But now I'm on to my, you know, I just finished my 14th film. Now they, now they've got confidence in me. You know, they know that, you know, I am actually going to pay their actors. They know that I'm not full of shit. I do do what I say. I'm gonna do, you know what I mean? So it's also having the confidence in and also the confidence from your audience to know that, you know, they can hit the bean UPS productions website and they know that they're going to get a really entertaining, funny film, so they're happy to come back time and time again and keep clicking back. So you're absolutely right. It's your confidence as well. That goes up, but it's also the confidence of people you work with and the confidence of the general public as well to to enjoy your work.

Dave Bullis 23:09
Yeah, it's, I know you mean about the confidence of others. And you mentioned, by the way, you're putting everything together, and I wanted to actually ask about that when you were actually making your documentary, your documentary, I will not go quietly, you know, how did you put everything together, since this was your first outing, you know, I imagine, you know, obviously you're still building a network, you're still making contacts, you're still looking for equipment. So how did you go about, you know, getting everything together for your first project,

Gough 23:38
Yeah, well, with that particular one. So I basically put all my funds together that I had so pretty much all my savings, which probably isn't the greatest idea in the world, but I thought, well, you know, I got to go for it, because that's the other thing too. Just going back to your previous point, sometimes you just got to take a risk. You know, you got to take a punt and just believe in yourself and believe in your work. So I got all my funds together. I bought the equipment that I thought I would need, like, just a regular, sort of handy cam tripod, you know, a little radio, couple of radio mics, you know, just basic, standard equipment. I organized the interviews with the people. I just went out and I shot them myself. So, you know, just pretty much pointed the camera and hoped for the best. Because, obviously, framing is not going to be something I'm going to be fantastic at. So I just, yeah, I shot it myself, and then I actually, when I first finished high school, my first job was working at a radio station as an audio producer, making their commercials and their promos. So I did that for about three years, so I've had a lot of practice in editing audio. So when it comes to editing a film, I do it like I'm editing a radio commercial, or in this case, a 90 minute radio play. So I get the clips that I want, I put them to one side, and then I just put the clips together like a jigsaw puzzle, so just making sure that they all make sense and are all coherent, so to speak. And yeah, do. Put it together like that. So I just edit by audio, and that still happened today. So I've got Simon, who's my right hand man, now who I edit with. And so he makes sure that, like, for example, let's say somebody is getting exiting a car, for example. So he'll make sure that the shot from inside the car is going to marry up with the shot outside of the cup that is not, you know. So it's nice and smooth, you know. So he makes sure all that stuff is how it should be for me. But I pretty much tell him my cues as to, you know, when we're going from a if it's a conversation, for example, if we're going from a long shot to a close shot, I'll know, in my mind, the audio, the cue point that. So when the girl finishes speaking, for example, I want to cut to the two shot then and have them both on shot, so I know all my cues by audio. So I'll say to Simon, right, cut it there two shot. And so he'll make it all happen for me now. So I still edit by audio, even today.

Dave Bullis 26:00
Yeah, and you, I wanted to ask too, before I forget, did you? Did you have a full time job while you were making this film?

Gough 26:09
No, no, no, this though, yeah, I, I Well, yeah, I like I said. I started in radio, doing Sarah, and then I also was, while I was working in radio, I was also touring as a stand up comedian. So I've toured all over the place doing stand up comedy. And so when I started up being up to productions, I was still doing the stand up comedy, but then as obviously, as the films have sort of taken over the doing stand up comedy, I don't really do that anymore, so I sort of gave that away. So yeah, when I was doing I will not go quietly the first film, I was doing the occasional stand up gig, but, but, yeah, no, that was pretty much the end of stand up and working full time on the production company.

Dave Bullis 26:55
The reason I brought that up was because a lot of filmmakers, when they're making their first, you know, first movie, they're either working a full time job, they're going to school, they have a family, or a combination of the three. And it's, it's always like, how the hell do you have the time to do, you know what I mean, do anything else so and then it's always at that point, you know whether, when you know, you decided you've had enough, you're going to make something of your own, and you're this is going to be, you know, your shot. It's also about, you know, you're at that point where you have really nothing left to lose, so to speak. And you know you were just pulling yourself up out of that and making those connections and finding the time. And you don't have much, you don't you get up early, you go to bed late. You know, you call in every favor you can to make sure that this, this movie, is as good as possible. Because I actually had on the guy, Elliot Grove, who runs rain dance, and he actually was, was the person who helped Christopher Nolan make his first film following and Christopher Nolan made it on weekends, and he would come to the his office, and, you know, borrow the same equipment, and when he was done, you know, he you know, Christopher Nolan went off and was making other movies at that point, you know. And the rest is history. But you know, that's why I'm always fascinated about people's first films, because it's always a very like David Lynch with a racer head. It took him years to finish that film. And you know, that's why I'm always interested about people's first films, because there's always a unique, a unique story within the story. Yeah?

Gough 28:28
Well, that's why I say, you know, yeah, you just like, you are absolutely correct. I mean, it came to a point where I was like, You know what? I can't, I can't keep getting rejected by people that don't understand me and my work and whatnot. So, you know what? I just have to do this. I mean, otherwise I'm going to be going around in circles, like on a race track, like for the next 1015, 2030, years. I mean, there's guys that I used to do stand up comedy with who are still working the same rooms, doing the same jokes 15 years later. I mean, I, like I said, I haven't done a stand up comedy gig, I reckon, in at least five, probably seven years. But I mean, these guys that I used to tour with, they're still doing the same stuff. You know that they're in, they're in a rut, so to speak. You know they need to, and some of them are really funny, talented guys who could actually really kick some goals if they just sort of put their mind to focusing on what they really want to achieve and what they want to do, you know? So I suppose it's just comes down to a case of having the confidence, like you said earlier, to back yourself in and go, You know what? I can actually do this. I want to do it. And you never, hey, look, Ben, you've only got one life. You may as well give it all you got. You got to give it a shot. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 29:42
Yeah, I couldn't agree more golf. You know that, by the way, you know, as you were describing those comedians that you, that you used to work with, you know that would make an interesting documentary just following them around.

Gough 29:54
Yes, it would. Yes, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 29:57
Have you ever thought about that?

Gough 30:09
Well, because the other thing too, I mean, I don't know. I'm sure a few of your listeners probably comedy nerds or go and watch a lot of stand up comedy or whatever, but behind the scenes, it's a very catty kind of backstabbing kind of industry, because, especially in Australia, there's, there's a lot of comedians and not enough rooms, so people are fighting for work. So there's a lot of, you know, like, Mean Girls, kind of, you know, very high school bullshit that goes on behind political nonsense that goes on behind the scenes, you know, like, so it would absolutely make if you were able to do it properly. I mean, like, really do a proper fly on the wall and absolutely expose all the bullshit that goes on. Because everybody thinks comedians are just happy, wonderful, hilarious, great people. But that's, I mean, just changing topics slightly. That's why I think comedians make such fantastic actors. I mean, you look at somebody like Robin Williams, you know, Billy Connolly is another one. You know, comedians make great actors because every night they go on stage and they play a character, you know. So what you're seeing on stage, they're really funny and they're doing funny jokes, but that's not who they are when they get off stage. They're a completely different person. That's just their stage persona. So they they're acting, you know, five, sometimes even seven nights a week. And so that's why I think that when it comes to doing a serious role, a lot of comedians are fantastic actors. I mean, I saw Will Ferrell. I mean, people wouldn't think of him as being a great actor, but I saw him in a in a film called Stranger Than Fiction, which I think I was the only person who actually saw that film. It was a really great film, but he and he had to play a sort of a Truman Show, kind of a serious sort of a character. And he was absolutely fantastic. He did a wonderful job. You know, he was really great. So I think that's why comedians make great actors, is because they're acting every night. So going back to the original point, I think a documentary like that would be really, really fascinating, because you'd actually see what they're actually like when the camera, you know, when, when they're not on stage, you know. And you'd see all the the agents and the bullshit that goes on back behind the scenes, you know, it's, it's like, it's like politics, you know, it can be a terrible industry, really.

Dave Bullis 32:30
Yeah, I actually had a Don Barris on here for episode 100 and he and I, you know, discussed that briefly, but about because he was, he actually works at the Comedy Store. He actually closes there every night. And he seen,

Gough 32:45
He know, man, yeah. He know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 32:47
Just all about, you know, all the different comedians that have come, come back through in there, you know, over time, and on Mark maron's podcast, he and Mark just discussed working with Sam Kinison, the legendary comedian, and they would say some of the stuff that he would come out with, and we and, you know, just, just some of the stuff where it was, it was so petty over absolutely nothing. And it's like, you know, you know, it a joke too similar. You know, did this guy get a bigger laugh than me? I go on before him, because I'm a bigger star than this guy. And it's, you know, a lot of the guys are just like, is it really like it? Does it all this really matter at the end?

Gough 33:25
Yeah, well, well, yeah. And that's why I reckon. But I think it would be difficult to make that documentary, because I think it would be hard to get that on camera. I think they would make sure that, you know, they were playing up for that. That's why I don't, I don't know that you'd be able to do it for that exact reason. I think it would be really hard to get them to actually, you know, show that side of themselves, and show the cattiness and the I keep going. I mean, that's the phrase we use in Australia. But I mean, if you've seen the movie, Mean Girls, I mean, that's what it's like, except that fully grown men, who should know better, you know what I mean. So, yeah, but it would, it would be an interesting doco, if you could actually do it properly, it could be a really interesting doco,

Dave Bullis 34:07
Yeah, you know, I had a friend of mine who made a documentary, and he nobody was really like, wanting to speak their mind so to speak, and he was really pissed off, he was frustrated, and he's like, it's not coming together. So what he did was, by chance, he went to an after party one night, and he was like, I'll just see what happens here. Well, some of the people got a few beers in them, and suddenly they're going up to him, and they're just like, let me tell you about this son of a bitch about it. And he's like, Oh my God. He goes, this is what I wanted. All I needed was a couple of alcohol. I should have thought of that in the first place.

Gough 34:44
Well, when I did, I will not go quietly. I purposely was very vague with everybody, because, like I said, I interviewed 24 people, and I was purposely vague on my emails as to what I was going to ask them. Because, I mean, a. Lot of people, especially, I mean, there was a few people that wouldn't speak to me because, for example, in the disability sector in Australia, the employment disability sector. I mean, one thing I found out was 70% of all blind and vision impaired people in Australia are unemployed. They can't get work because no one will give them a go. It's disgrace. And so a lot of people in the disability work sector just would not talk to me, because they know they're not doing their jobs properly, and they can't put these people into work. And, you know, it's just a complete shambles of an organization. So I was deliberately vague. When I would send out their emails, I was just, you know, I'd introduce myself, tell them who I was and what I was, you know, I was making a documentary on disability and mental health, but I wouldn't tell them any more than that. You know, some people said, oh, I want to see the questions in advance, in which case I'd send them some very loose questions. But I always was deliberately vague, because if you give people a chance to rehearse what they're going to say, it's not true. You know, they'll make it well, they won't lie, per se, but they'll put a positive spin to make the situational themselves look as positive as possible. So I was, yeah, like I say, I was deliberately vague with the people. I was interviewing them so I would get more honest answers and feedback for when I interviewed them.

Dave Bullis 36:19
And you know that that's actually ties into with a question I really wanted to ask you golf, and I'm glad you actually brought it up. Is when you were making, you know, not only this documentary, but everything else you know, with you know, you being legally blind, it is, is there ever a time when you're watching, like, maybe the field monitor or playback, when you're I mean, I'm generally interested. I mean, is there ever a time when you have where you actually, you know, can't I, don't I, you know, I'm trying to try to say, like, can you ever, like, have you have trouble sometimes seeing playback, or sometimes, you know what I mean, like, or do you, do you have like, a DP that you depend on for that?

Gough 36:56
Yeah, well, a little bit of all of that. So so I can, if I knows to monitor, I can see what's going on, pretty good. But when we're shooting, because our budgets aren't big, we just got to shoot, and we got to move on. So I don't have a chance to actually see the footage until we begin editing, and then I'll look through the footage then. So, for example, the very first scripted film I did, which was the heather roses interview we I hired a crew, and the guy who was on one of the cameras decided that my direction wasn't up to his liking, and he was shooting all different things, and so I went insane, because that wasn't cool, man. I mean, that's, that's not the right thing to do at all, I mean, and there's no way we could go back and reshoot it, because we didn't have the budget to do that. So obviously he only lasted the one project and he was gone. So it comes down to having a team around me that I can trust and that I know that if I give them a direction, they can follow it. And it's also about them understanding what I want to achieve. So it's about me being able to communicate with my, you know, my director of photography, you know, this is what I want, and this is why I want it. And then he'll be like, Okay, I understand. I get it though. You know, I can just then leave him alone to do his job, because I'm a big believer in that as well. Is, you know, if you have a great team of people around you. You don't have to babysit them, you know, you can give them their direction, and they'll go and they'll do their job. And that means that I can then spend more time with my actors, making sure that I get the performances that I want, because at the end of the day, man, if a performance from an actor isn't believable, then it doesn't matter how good your sound is or your lighting is or anything, man. I mean, people are going to tune out instantly if the actors crap then, I mean, there's not much you can do about, you know, I'm saying so I make sure I spend a lot of time, you know, really working the script with my actors, to make sure they understand precisely, exactly what I want. Not being able to see, I think actually helps, because I really focus on tones and inflections and things like that. So if they're getting a word wrong, I pick it up immediately. So, you know, because I've spent a lifetime having to listen to people, so, you know, I really, really spend a lot of time with my actors, with rehearsing their lines to make sure they get them absolutely spot on. And I, you know, like I say, with the DP, and I just, I give, I've got a really good relationship with him now. So he knows exactly how I like to shoot my work, and what I what I, you know, my sort of style. And so he sort of almost knows before I do kind of thing, how I'm going to say I want this shot. He sort of knows immediately now, because we've done, we've done 12 films together now, so yeah, he knows how I roll now, so it works really well. But it's all about trust. You know, you got to have a crew that you can trust and actors that you can trust as well. And the same goes as well for when I'm directing my actors, I can't see their facial expressions, obviously. So I'll say to Simon, you know, mate, how are the are they giving me good face? And he'll say, yeah, they're giving you good face. And so that's how I know that I'm getting the facial expressions that I need. And we can move on to the next shot. So, yeah, a lot of trust goes into it, but you just can't have, I mean, with unprofessional anyway, but you can't have people going rogue on you and just doing their own thing, because it just makes the mess of the whole production.

Dave Bullis 40:34
Yeah, and he touched on something that I'm a big advocate of, which is, if you're going to hire somebody, let them do that job. You know, I've been on sets before, a golf where it's like people want to directors or producers. They want to micromanage everybody to the nth degree. And you sit there, you go, well, didn't you hire this person? I mean, if they don't know what to do, I mean, that's on, that's on you, you know, because you're you know. I mean, if you hire the person and they don't know what they're doing, that's your fault. You know? Fault, you know? So just, just let them do their thing,

Gough 41:05
But even when it comes down to things like costume and makeup. So I'm a boy, so you know, I'm not, you know, I don't know a lot about this stuff. So I'll sit down with the makeup artist, for example, and she'll say, you know, how do you want this girl to look? And so I'll give a basic description of how I wanted to look. And if she's got any questions, she'll ask me. But basically, it's okay I get it right. Well, off you go and make her look like that. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not, I don't know about, you know, different shades of pretty eye shadow and whatnot. I've told you, the general look of the girl, the character. So make her look like that. That's your job. Off you go, so that that's kind of how I work, and it's important to do that, because then, like, I say, I can focus on the things that I really need to focus on, and if somebody does have an issue, they can come to me, and I've got time to help them solve whatever problem that they might have, you know,

Dave Bullis 41:58
Yeah, yeah. Very true. And you know, that's why you have to hire good people as best as you can, you know. And that's a lot. Goes back to networking. And, you know, I always tell people, even if you can't afford to pay people, you know, work on their movie for free, and then have them work on your movie for free, just as, you know, as sort of a tit for tat. If you can't afford to pay people, there's always a creative way to solve problems. And, you know, money is not always the answer. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, people always say it's the it's the number one answer, because, you know, money's money. But if you, if you do, start to meet new people and say, hey, look, I have a small thing to do, like a small short film or a small web or a web series, whatever, you know, just help each other out, you know, on that project, rather than just try to, you know, constantly compensate people with cash.

Gough 42:46
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. I mean, it's like I said earlier. You know, trust is so important when you when you're working with people, so if you, if you have a good relationship with your cast and your crew. I mean, there's actors that I've worked with three or four times in the film, because I know that they'll always do a good job for me. There are quality actors. So if I've got a film coming up, and I've got a particular I don't necessarily write for actors, but if I've got a film that's coming up, and I think, you know, so and so would be really good for that role. I'll call him up straight away and say, Hey buddy, man, I've got a job for you. Do you want it? And then, you know, we go from there. So it's, I'm a big believer in that, in loyalty. You know, if people, it's silly to go out and hire somebody new when you've got somebody who, like, I mean, Simon, he's been working with me now for the best part of five years, and I'm not going to, fact, the guy anytime soon, because he does a fantastic job for me. So, I mean, it's important as well to make sure that once you find good people, you do whatever you can to get them to stick around. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 43:49
Yes, absolutely, you got to keep that team going. And that's why you I always see directors working with the same people over and over again. It's because they've built that team, and they sort of work well together. And you, as you made your film, I will not go quietly, which, by the way, is free on your website. I think that's really, really cool, by the way. And you know, you started to make some other films, you know, other projects, other short films. So, you know, did you know what was, what was sort of that, that journey, you know, obviously, you know, golf, just making these other films. I mean, did you start to get more and more of a budget, or did you always try to keep the same sort of style and same budget moving forward?

Gough 44:29
Oh, no, no. I'm trying to try and get as big a budget as I possibly can, you know, so it gives me a little bit more breathing space, so I can maybe hire an extra crew member, or if I need a few other extras, or whatever I can do that. So, you know, I always try and get as big a budget as I can, but like I say, it always depends on the sales of the last film. So that's why, obviously, I encourage people to hit up beer nuts productions.com and they'll see all the films and whatnot up there, and they can download whatever they want to, and they're safe in the knowledge that while they're getting. Entertained by that particular film that that that purchase or download is going towards making my next film to entertain them. So again, everybody wins, you know. So we're, yeah, I try and try and scrape together as much in the way of funds as I possibly can. So yeah, it does help, let's be honest. I mean, it really does help. You know, the more money you have, the the better you can do things, the more relaxed things can be. So, so, yeah, no, I do try and do try and raise as much as I can. But, like I say, All depends on sales.

Dave Bullis 45:31
So, you know, just as we talk again about, you know, your project and sales, or, sorry, your project and sales, you know what, what has been the most challenging aspect of all this, has it? Has it ever been, you know, getting a location, has something ever fallen through that was a guarantee, you know, what was one of the biggest challenges that you faced golf, and how did you overcome that?

Gough 45:52
Well, the films are reasonably straightforward. I mean, like I say, I've got a good experience in this industry, so, you know, and I'm not one to jump up and down and panic. So if something, if a locate, like for a film that we're doing currently, at the moment, we've had a bit of trouble finding a specific location, but that's okay. Well, I'll just keep going until I find someone who wants to play nice and let us film at their location. But so it's more about the marketing side of things. That's what I've really found a struggle. Going back to one of the things we discussed earlier in the in the chat, was, was marketing and that that's the number one thing that we constantly are fighting and that's why, like I said, I had to employ somebody full time for that, because it was just trying to constantly market and then make the films as well. Was just, it was getting too much so and plus, I needed somebody with more specific skills, because that's not my skill set. Isn't marketing, that that's another important thing as well. When I think with filmmaking, is you got to know what you're good at. So I mean, when it comes to the writing and directing that I can do, and producing, I can do all that. But when it comes to, I mean, I'm no good with the artwork, because I can't see so I get someone in to do that. And same with marketing. I mean, I tried the best I could, but in the end, I just, I knew I had to find somebody else, someone with more experience and knowledge in that area. So that's where Amy came in and and she's taken it through the roof for me, which has been fantastic. But, yeah, as far as the films themselves go. Look, I just, I just do what I do, man. I mean, I, like I said, we do it all like a normal film would get made. You know, I get the locations I need, I get the actors I need. If I need any specific crew members, I just search around till I find the right people and and I just keep going. We're just Yes, there hasn't been any, any real big challenges in that, that regard, like, I say it's all about marketing. That's, that's the number one thing. But as always, ever since day one has been the number one challenge. Has been getting the work out there to the people.

Dave Bullis 47:55
And so now that you that you have all this together, you have that you have the website, and you have all your, all of your, your projects, all in one spot. You know, have Have you noticed golf? Have you noticed a sort of a steady increase of views as you sort of get out there, more and more people are discovering you and your story? Have you noticed that or, or is it something, or are you trying to, sort of, you know, are you still sort of looking for that, that silver bullet, if you know what,

Gough 48:24
I mean, oh no, no. It is, it is steadily increasing. I mean, I'd always like it to increase more obviously, but, you know, but it is, it is steadily, slowly but surely growing, you know, which is fantastic. I mean, so, and that's why I'm so grateful to people like yourself for having me on the podcast and letting me, you know, talk about beer nuts productions and what I do so that people can have a chance to enjoy my work. And so that's why I'm like, I say I'm very grateful for your time and for the podcast. You know, it helps out people like me tremendously to share their work. So yeah, but it's steadily rising. But, yeah, hopefully, hopefully it keeps, keeps growing and growing and growing, because that's like I said in the beginning, man. I mean, there's 7 billion people on this earth, and I'm not going to be happy until all 7 billion have watched one of my films. So that's the goal, you know. So it'll, it'll never be big enough.

Dave Bullis 49:18
And that's exactly it, my friend, you've hit the nail on the head. That's what I have that I always say to myself too. I'm always like, there's 7 billion people on this planet, and by what 2030 or 2050 there's gonna be, like, I think it's gonna be up to like, 10 billion because of the additions of all the dishes of China and India, their populations keep rapidly expanding, especially India, and India is going to be the most populated country in the world soon.

Gough 49:47
Yes, yes, yes. this. Yeah, well, well, I mean, and I mean just their film industry, the Bollywood film industry, I mean that is, that is massive. I think I could be way wrong, but I think I heard somewhere, I was watching a documentary on it, and I'm pretty sure they said it's the second biggest grossing product for India. Is Bollywood, their film industry earned the second, you know, amount of money for that particular country's income comes from Bollywood film, which is just staggering. It's mind blowing. So, you know, the film industry in India is a huge, huge, huge thing,

Dave Bullis 50:35
Yeah, and I did hear that as well, and because they produce so many different movies, you know, a month.

Gough 50:43
I mean, there's, like, they turn them out, like, butter, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 50:48
Seriously, there's always another hit Bollywood movie coming out. It's, you know, and then then some of them, the rare, the rare top couple, find their way over here to the USA, and they, sort of, they play in certain areas, which, which, you know, which, some of them, you know, are fantastic, and then other ones I, you know, I try to watch films from all over. And I'm not a big musical guy, so sometimes when they break out into song and dance, it's just not my jam, you know.

Gough 51:23
Yeah, no, that they do have a very unique style. I mean, I'm not saying it's bad or it's good or anything like that. I'm just saying, you know, they've got their own way and style of making film in Bollywood, you know, it's very bright, it's very in your face. It's very Yeah, song and dance and then a fight scene will break out. It's, it's a bit of, yeah, it's just all sort of action going on 24/7 it's a very different style to to how, how the western side of the world makes films, no doubt about that,

Dave Bullis 51:52
Yeah and yeah, but you know, there are some of the really cool ones out there. And that's, that's a whole nother story for another time. You know, Gough we've been talking for about, you know, 50 minutes now. So just, you know, just in closing, is there anything you wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Gough 52:10
Well, just my latest film is the the environment, the real truth, which is a mockumentary about the environment. So I'm in a bit of a mockumentary kind of a mood. I've made one about drugs, and I've made one about the porn industry, and now I did one about the the environment. The next one that I'm going to do is about the fitness industry. So I'm in a bit of a mockumentary kind of a feel at the moment. I sort of get into a mood of a style of filmmaking, and then I sort of just ran that into the grounds kind of thing. So yeah, the last film was the environment the real truth. So where I interview, you know, fake scientists and conservationists, like a Steve Irwin, kind of a conservation guy, and then I've got the park ranger, and, like I say, a few different scientists as well. So it's, it was a lot of fun. So it goes for about 25 minutes, and, yeah, people can just download that particular film, and all the films, all the film, audio products and books are all available at just beer nuts productions.com so people can drink a beer, eat the nuts and enjoy my work. That's what it's all about.

Dave Bullis 53:13
Yeah, that's a really cool name, by the way. I was actually to mention that beer nuts. I was like, you know, it's like, yeah, like, beer nuts I serve at a bar. We grab a so obviously, you know, before I would be verbose if I didn't actually mention this Gough, they don't really drink fosters in Australia, right?

Gough 53:29
No, no, no. We sell that to the idiots overseas. We've run good beer over here.

Dave Bullis 53:37
So, so what is, what is your beer of choice?

Gough 53:41
Well, in Australia, the number one beer over here is Carlton draft. Yeah, that's our number one beer over here. But we're big beer drinkers in Australia, man. I mean, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of actually, it's kind of funny. The last film that we did, the environment, the real truth, we had to film a scene in a brewery. And so there's quite a few around the Gold Coast where I live. And so I contacted one, and they're like, yeah, man, come in film, that's fine. So you sure, I mean, workplace, health and safety or, you know, you're processing, like food kind of products. I mean, are we cool to do? So, yeah, just come into what you want to do. They were the most easy going people I've ever worked with ever so we've rocked up to film the scene that we need to do. And I'm like, Well, is there any places you don't want us to go, or is there anything that we need to know? Or he's like, No, man, just wherever you want to go. It's all sweet. All fine. Okay, great. And then he gave us a couple of beers before we left. It was delicious. Yeah, I need to. Everybody's saying to me now, like all my crew are saying to me, you have to write something else about it being in a brewery so we can go back. So yeah, but it's nice when you have people like that, that you know, just want to nice and cooperative and easy going and just want to help out. So yeah, but yeah, that was for the last film. The we were in the balsa Brewing Company helped us out a lot with the location.

Dave Bullis 55:04
You know, I should mention them in the show notes. That was actually really, really cool of them. So if you shoot me their, their, their name, Gough I'll make sure to mention them in the show notes.

Gough 55:15
Well, actually, I don't know for your listeners who were, who might be big fans of surfing, the sport of surfing, three Australian surfers, Mick Fanning, the guy that punched a shark in the face a few years ago in South Africa, that made the news all over the world, but Nick Fanning, who's a number one surfer, Joel Parkinson and, oh, man, I've forgotten the other guy. Those three lads they just wanted with their spare cash, they were like, oh, what shall we do? We'll open a brewery. But that's what they did, and, like, a year later, it's just kicking goals and going from strength to strength. So it's actually their brewery is where we filmed, and it's because there's a big surfing culture here on the Gold Coast where I live, because I live sort of on the Florida of Australia is where I live. So there's big waves just outside my front door, pretty much so Mick Fanning and Joel Parkinson and that they come from where I'm at. So yeah, they, they decided to start a brewery, and good for me, because we ended up filming there. So yeah, it's, it's worked out well for everybody. So yeah, it's funny how things work out like that. But yeah, really cool.

Dave Bullis 56:17
You know some surfer punching a shark. That might be the most Australian thing I've heard of ever. That's,

Gough 56:26
Yeah, if people haven't seen it, I mean, it was on the news. Happened about a year ago, if you just jump on YouTube and type Nick fanning partner shark punch or something like that. That happened in a competition in South Africa and Jay Bay. And, yeah, he was Julian Wilson, was the other surfer in the water. And, yeah, it's, it's really remarkable footage in the I mean, it's funny now, because everything was okay. But the part that makes me laugh the most is the commentator who's Commentating the action, his reaction, because he's like, holy shit. It was, it was very freaking out because, you know, Wade goes over just as this shark's coming at Mick Fanning, and they're like, has he gone under? What's really, it's actually, but the commentators reaction is actually very, very funny. So, yeah, people could just jump on YouTube and and watch that. It's, it's a funny clip.

Dave Bullis 57:17
Yeah, I will make sure to look for that and put that in the show notes, but, but that definitely, I now, every time I think of Australia, I'm just gonna think of that, even though it didn't happen in Australia, happened in South Africa. But still, it's a, it's an Australian thing to happen. I I remember there was this, this, this video I saw one time this, this kangaroo actually had this guy's dog, and it was holding him, and this guy wanted to save his dog, so he leapt over this fence, and he punched the kangaroo straight in the face, and the kangaroo, the kangaroo, fell back on its tail, and then just stood back upright. And the guy just ran off because the kangaroo. I mean, you've seen kangaroos, they can take a punch, so it's

Gough 57:56
Like, six foot tall. I mean, you don't fuck with a kangaroo. They're vicious animals. I mean, people think there's like, koalas. I mean, koalas are actually quite I mean, their claws, they climb trees, and for their claws, they could rip your throat out. So, I mean, you know, you don't fuck with the Australian wildlife, man, that just that, just a no go zone. So, yeah, but I have seen that clip with the kangaroo. It's very funny.

Dave Bullis 58:20
Yeah, I've seen some of those kangaroos in their tail. They can move it. So it's kind of like they never actually fall down. They're always Gough. It has been a hell of a time talking to you, man, and I'm glad we could actually connect again, because you have a unique story as is there. You know, again, everyone has a journey in the in this in the filmmaking world, making content, making media, whatever that might be, and it's cool. I'm glad we could connect and everybody, everything Gough and I talked about will be in the show notes. Gough I want to wish you the best buddy, and I will talk to you very soon.

Gough 58:53
Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate your time, Dave.

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BPS 450: From Video Games to the Big Screen: The Filmmaking Journey of Nicole Jones-Dion

December 18, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The lights of Los Angeles flicker differently when you’re chasing stories instead of stars. On today’s episode, we welcome Nicole Jones-Dion, a screenwriter, director, and producer whose journey took her from the world of video games and comics into the unpredictable realm of filmmaking. Her work spans from co-writing Tekken 2 to crafting the supernatural thriller They Found Hell for the SyFy Channel, to directing her first feature film, Stasis.

Nicole’s creative path began in the interactive worlds of games and graphic novels, where storytelling was often bold, visual, and larger than life. That same sensibility carried over into her screenplays, which naturally gravitated toward sci-fi, horror, and action. With a love for genre storytelling, she found herself writing for projects that demanded both imagination and grit — Dracula epics, video game adaptations, and stories designed to thrill audiences while tapping into familiar myths.

What makes Nicole’s story remarkable is not only her resilience but her ability to adapt. Before breaking into films like Dracula: The Dark Prince, she had already written over fifteen spec scripts, proving that persistence is as essential as talent. Many of her earliest opportunities weren’t born from original pitches, but from being brought in to rework or refine existing scripts — a reality she stresses is the bulk of Hollywood writing. “If you’re writing for someone else, your job is to give them the best possible version of their idea,” she explained.

She also experimented with crowdfunding to bring her short film Debris to life. Originally seeking just $5,000, she raised nearly $20,000 — 330% over her goal. The film, centered on a cursed samurai sword that washes ashore after the Fukushima tsunami, struck a chord with audiences and festival juries alike. For Nicole, the campaign revealed the power of a strong concept: if the hook is intriguing, audiences will rally to see it made.

Her passion for character-driven storytelling shines in her approach to screenwriting. Nicole Jones Dion works from detailed outlines and insists on strong titles and character names before diving into pages. She draws from methods like Save the Cat and the mini-movie structure, blending them into her own system. For her, clarity in the outline stage prevents wasted effort later. She builds stories where protagonists and antagonists clash as equals, each the hero of their own narrative. “The antagonist is the engine of the whole story,” she noted, underscoring how much weight villains carry in shaping drama.

Nicole also cautions against soapbox storytelling, advocating instead for themes that pose questions rather than dictate answers. Whether tackling sci-fi adventures or occult horror, she wants stories to leave room for audiences to think and engage with the material. Her love for speculative fiction — tales that echo the spirit of The Twilight Zone — continues to guide her work, from her award-winning samurai scripts to the YA sci-fi of Stasis.

Through all of it, Nicole embodies the philosophy of persistence. She writes daily, often at night, and embraces the idea that growth never stops. Even after multiple films, she continues to study, refine her craft, and chase new challenges. From feature films to shorts, from crowdfunding campaigns to international distribution, her career is proof that genre filmmaking thrives on both discipline and passion.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:31
On this week's episode of the podcast, my guest is a screenwriter, producer and director. She co wrote Tekken two she successfully crowdfunded her film debris, and now she's working on a ton of other stuff, which we're gonna get into on the show with Nicole Jones Dion, Hey, Nicole, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Nicole Jones Dion 0:31
Oh, thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 0:31
You know it's my pleasure, Nicole, because you, I think you're the first person who have had on who is also a member of the screenwriting you alumni series. I'm pretty sure you were the first person. Oh, cool, yeah. It's, yeah. I don't know why I haven't had anybody else on there yet, on here, yet. Excuse me. Because you know, it's that group is always doing great things. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on here is because every time I turn around, you're always up to something new. You're You're always creating some great content. So that's why I wanted to have you on I think everyone could learn a lot from you. So just to get started, you know, just learning more about Nicole Jones, Dion, I wanted to ask, you know, Nicole, what made you get started in screenwriting and the film industry in general?

Nicole Jones Dion 0:31
You know, it's funny, because when I moved to LA, oh, God, a long, long time ago, I don't want to say exactly how long. I'll give away my age, but when I moved out here, I My intention was never to get into films or screenwriting. It was to get into the video game industry. So I started out working in video games, and then I kind of segued into comics, and then the stories I was coming up with, people were like, oh, doesn't make great movies. And I was like, Oh, that's such a cliche. I don't want to be that cliche Hollywood screenwriter. And, you know, flash forward, and here I am. So I think because I started out working in that comic book and video game space, a lot of my my screenplays and the genres that I'm naturally drawn to are these, like, you know, fun, sci fi action, or, you know, horror, you know, just, just these really fun fanboy type projects and and you can see that in the films that I've done, you know, if you look at, you know, like Dracula The Dark Prince, which we did, Jon Voight, that's a very, even though it's a Dracula film, it's more of a fantasy epic, you know, Sword and Sorcery type take on the Dracula mythos. And then Tekken two, which is based on the video game series, you know, I kind of got that gig, you know, directly through Dracula. And then also because I had that tie with the video game industry and, you know, and then writing for the Sci Fi Channel, which I did last October, I did an original film for them, which aired as part of their 30 Days of Halloween series that was called they found hell. And and now I'm transitioning into directing. And I just directed my first feature, which is called stasis, which is another sci fi kind of action film. So it's, it's funny, a lot of people think of me primarily as a horror writer, but my, the genesis of my career, and the start of it is really more in that sci fi video game type space.

Dave Bullis 0:31
So, so did you find that, you know, the video game industry, you know, I actually made a project for the video game industry, kind of, sort of, and what I found is, when I reached out to them, a lot of them were kind of leery, always about going and making things, you know, about, you know. Know, you know different projects because of, you know, X, Y and Z. So I wanted to ask you, Nicole, did you find it it's harder or easier? And I know this is that's a very broad stroke. Did you want it's harder or easier in the video game industry to get your foot in the door than it is the film and TV industry?

Nicole Jones Dion 0:00
I think, I mean, it's changed. The video game industry changed a lot since I worked in it. I mean, just to kind of put it in perspective, when I was doing it, that was during that weird time when they were doing live action video games. So it was almost like a choose your adventure movie that was kind of friends. Now I'm dating myself, people who know that era and at the time, and that ended up being a failed experiment, because you ended up with all ended up with all the cost and expense of making a movie, plus all the cost and expense of making a video game. And so they got away from that really fast, and now with, you know, the way that the computer graphics have advanced, it's like you're getting, like, these amazing photo realistic results without having to do like a live action shoot. But I would say, because of the cost involved in video games, it's definitely easier to do films, because you can go out and shoot a little movie on your iPhone. Now, whereas with video games, you know, you've got programming and and the solid modeling and the video, you know, all the TV that's intrinsic is part of that process, I think it is a harder nut to crack, especially now, you know, you know,

Dave Bullis 0:04
I remember all of those live action video games too. I think there was one called Fox hunt. And I remember, you know, trying renting those games. I'm thinking to myself, this can't be the future, can it? And I remember that era where everyone was doing, at least everyone had one. There was a one called psychic detective. I remember that one meander was kind of the big one with Mark Hamill. That was, yeah, I remember that one too.

Nicole Jones Dion 0:04
Yeah, yeah, weird. It was a weird time. I think people kind of try to forget that, that that era even existed.

Speaker 1 0:04
Yeah, I remember that so well be so, you know, you went to the video game industry and, you know, you tried your hand at that. And I agree with you completely. The video game industry has changed immensely, because I have friends who work in the video game industry. And, you know, even when I was pitching some of my projects, things have changed, even five from five years ago now, you know, I mean, and now look at us now, Nicole, Pokemon, Pokemon Go, is the new, you know, the new craze, and they're making a mobile NES system for 60 bucks. And, you know, I'm sure that's going to be a number one bestseller as well. So it's like the retro now is, you know, making, making a whole everything sick holes. I'm trying to say,

Nicole Jones Dion 7:30
Yeah, no, it's amazing. It's amazing. I mean, an augmented reality is such a fascinating thing. I I'm trying to avoid the Pokemon Go phenomena, just because I have this addictive personality, and I know once I get sucked in that did, I'm done. There goes my productivity for the rest of my life. But I did play Ingress, which is a platform that it was based on, and, and I think augmented reality is it's just, it's fascinating. The gameplay experience is really, really interesting. And, yeah, I think there's, it could be the wave of the future, at least wave of the future for right now. It's a fun little trend. I'm definitely keeping an eye on it. I mean, Nintendo's market value went up like $7 billion over the weekend just based off this one game alone. So, yeah, it's, it's an exciting time. It's exciting time for it to be in video games, film, TV, anything, because it's just the wild west right now. You know, with with all the new cable outlets and Netflix and Hulu and everybody doing all this original content. It's, it's, it's interesting, because the rules are all changing, and they're changing daily. And like trying to keep, you know, you don't, you can't even Chase trends anymore, because the trends are changing. So it's like trying to figure out, you know, to have to get one step ahead of that curve and and stay ahead of the rest of the flock, you know, it's a fun time.

Dave Bullis 8:44
Yeah, and even with crowdfunding, you know, I noticed all the video games now, or we're just being crowdfunded because they were, you know, basically the company would say, hey, we can't take a chance on these video games. So that, you know, the developers, you know, would go out and they would go make, you know, raise funds on Kickstarter. And I was shocked at seeing some of the prices, you know, some of the amounts that they were, amounts that they were raising, because I was thinking to myself, wow, you know, these, you know, I'm granting the, these are the head developers, you know, and they're coming out and saying, you know, this is us doing this. But, but still, you know, I was a little shocked that they were getting the the amount that they were,

Nicole Jones Dion 9:12
Yeah, well, because a lot of these, the video game companies, a lot of the board game companies, too, are using crowdfunding almost as a way of doing pre sales for the product. It's also as a way to test Thanks. Could you know, I do a lot of work now with Sean Cunningham, is the creator Friday the 13th, and they just did a big crowdfunding campaign for the Friday the 13th video game, which they just previewed at e3 a couple weeks ago. And the gameplay looks amazing. So if you're a fan of I'm gonna go do a little pitch here, but if you're a fan of the Friday the 13th franchise. This looks really cool,

Dave Bullis 9:44
Well, and I'm a huge fan of it, so I can't, I can't wait for the video game, by the way. But anyways, we know, you know, as we train, we follow your career. I know, you know, you obviously transfer, you know, translated out of, out of video games. And he started doing, doing more feature films. So how did you get, you know, attached to writing, you know, Dracula, the Dark Prince.

Nicole Jones Dion 10:14
That one. It was such a long story, but I had met where to begin. So I had written an adaptation of an image graphic novel called the Scribbler, which I'd done for Kickstarter entertainment. They went on to do a wanted with Angelina Jolie and James McAvoy. And so at the time, they were going around shopping my script, approaching different directors, and one of the directors that they had introduced me to as a possibility was this gentleman by the name of Perry tail. And then the writers strike happened, and that project ended up never going anywhere. But Perry and I stayed in touch over the years, and we collaborated on a bunch of projects and, and he had been approached with, you know, the possibility of writing and directing this, this Dracula film, and, and he's like, I need help with the script. Do you want to come on board? And I was like, Absolutely, dude, you're my guy, you know. And so we, we worked on Dracula together, then we worked on Tekken together, and then he just produced my first feature film. So it's one of these ongoing, you know, long term relationship. That's one of the things with this industry. It's all about building relationships, finding champions who are willing to go out there and and, you know, put their their necks out for you and making that really good first impression, and then that'll it'll just carry you can build a critter out of that, or at least get your foot in the door.

Dave Bullis 11:29
So when you got your foot in the door, were you mainly doing like script adaptations, or did you come in with already having some of your own original material already written?

Nicole Jones Dion 11:38
Oh gosh, I had probably, at the time I did Dracula, I probably had at least 15 specs already on the shelf that had won various contests and had been optioned nothing that had actually gone into production at that point. So with Dracula and Tekken and those types of things, those were all writing assignments that I was brought on to either fix and fisting scripts or develop ideas from scratch with the producers. Yeah, but I would say that stasis, which is the script, the feature that I just wrote and directed, is the first time I actually pitched an idea. I was hired to write my original idea. Everything prior to that had been somebody else had an idea or had an existing script that needed work, which is what 90% of the industry is, is developing other people's stuff.

Dave Bullis 12:21
So before you know, you wrote drag, before you came on a project of Dracula, you had written 15 spec scripts. So my question then is, Nicole, how did you find the time to write 15 spec scripts?

Nicole Jones Dion 12:32
Oh, you just do it. You just I have no life. And I think I mentioned I have an addictive personality. Instead of once, I actually had to give up video games. I had to give him up cold turkey, which is really hard and and, but one of the things I used to fill the void then is I just, I just write. I write constantly. I write every day, all the time. I have no life. I have no real family out here in LA. I mean, I have my husband, but all my family's back East. So it's I don't have a lot of the normal day to day distractions that other people have, and I can just immerse myself completely in my work, which is fine, because I love it.

Dave Bullis 13:06
So, you know, just speaking about your work, you know, could you deal us just a glimpse and, you know, into your process, you know, is there a certain time of day you write? Is there anything, any sort of special rituals you go through just to get, sort of put yourself in that, in that writing mindset,

Nicole Jones Dion 13:20
I tend to because I'm kind of a night owl, and I guess because I tend to write things that are darker anyway, I work better at night, which kind of sucks if you're working vampire hours. It's hard to associate with the real world. But yeah, and as far as rituals, I don't really have any rituals. I do have a treadmill desk that I use, just because sitting is is not good for you all day. I like working on that. And, yeah, I just do it at night. It's like something about when the sun goes down, that's when my creativity is at its its peak.

Dave Bullis 13:56
So do you subscribe to any method like the USC sequencing method, you know, like, you know, the 3x structure, say, the cat. Do you do you subscribe to any of these? Of these methods?

Nicole Jones Dion 14:06
I do, kind of a blend. I do save the cat with, you know, what Chris was called, The mini movie method, which is essentially the UPC sequencing method. Kind of do an overlay of the two in advance. A lot of these structuring tools, they're all very similar. There's a lot of overlap, anyway. And if you just look for the things that they have in common, I would say those are the things to focus on. You know, it's like they all have turning points and act breaks and inciting incidents. And there's, there's some subtle differences, but I found that by using faith the cat with the mini movie method, that seems to cover most of the bases.

Dave Bullis 14:41
Yeah, I've noticed there is a lot of overlap too, especially with the USC sequencing method and Chris so many movie method, you know? But I think Chris so to me, I really do like that mini movie method. And I find that that, you know, breaking into eight sequences really does help me sort of plan out the movie, if you know what I mean,

Nicole Jones Dion 14:58
Right! And it breaks. Down into these smaller, bite sized chunks. So it's not so daunting. So when you're first starting out, you're not looking at a blank page and thinking, oh my god, I have to write 90 or 120 pages. Now it's like, Oh no, I just have to get to the next 15 pages and and that's a lot more manageable. I can do, you know, 15 pages in a day or two, and then she's like, okay, then we go on to the next day.

Dave Bullis 15:19
So when, when you're sitting down to write, you know, you sort of what do you sort of need before you write? Meaning, do you need to sort of outline this heavily or write even a treatment, or do you just sort of get a starting point and just sort of go map from there?

Nicole Jones Dion 15:34
I'm a huge fan of outlining in advance, and I think this is a really good skill set, especially if you want to be a working writer in Hollywood, because a lot of these producers are not just going to hire you to write the script. They're going to need to see outlines. They're going to need to see treatments in advance. It's a skill you're going to have to learn. So you may as well practice those muscles while you you're working on your own specs. For me, I'm so I do have this one thing where it's like, I can't write a script until I know what it's called. And it's this weird hang up I have so I have to start with a title, and it's so dumb, and the title will change, but I have to have at least a title, and then, and then solid, solid log line. I always refer back to my log line, so I'll first things. First, I write the title, I write the log line, and then I start breaking out the bare bones of it, you know, doing like the breaking it up into the four acts, one act, the first half of the second act, second act, second half of the second act, and then the third act, at least having like a sentence for each knowing what that backbone is for the story. And then I'll start getting deeper into the Save the cat or the mini movie breakdown. But yeah, I have to have at least, at least a three or four page outline flash treatment before I'm comfortable starting actually writing the script.

Dave Bullis 16:44
You know, something I found out recently is something where I basically I can't write unless I can build the movie and then break it down again. You I mean, like it's sort of building and rebuilding, building and rebuilding. And, you know, because I don't know why, but I'm terrible with titles anymore. Like, titles to me, You know what I mean? Like, I just, if I don't know the title, what I do is I just sort of go past because I'll end up obsessing over the title, and I'll be like, you know, I can't figure out what to do.

Nicole Jones Dion 17:13
Spend a day looking at titles. Also, another thing I get hung up on this is just my weird little brain. I have to know what my character's names are, and names are, and names have to have significance to the story somehow, which you know, this is, I can't call them John and Jane. It's like they have to have meaningful name. I don't know. It's just my own little quirk, I guess. But yeah, for me, it's like going back to that log line, even like, if I if I start to write, and it's not feeling like it's something's not working out, go back to that log line that always becomes my sanity check. It's like, Is this because you want to make sure it's high concept and marketable, and you can sell it and people get it and just as few words as possible. And if I start to stray from that log line, I go back, readjust course, and then dive back in.

Dave Bullis 17:58
Yeah, you know, I oftentimes do too, where I just put in, like, you know, like, you know, guard a, guard B, you know, I'm just trying to fly through it, but I think you know, your method has a lot of validity to it, because characters suggest plot. And you know, if you have a character and just what sort of map that character out, and everything you know he or she would dictate, you know what they do. You know what I mean. Because, for instance, you know, a upbeat, you know, we know, you know, law abiding citizen is going to handle problems differently than you know. Maybe somebody you know, you know, born and they, you know, they, they've decided to take a criminal life, if you know what I mean, and they both had to, like, you know, get something from somebody that each have incredibly different methods, but how to get that thing from that person?

Nicole Jones Dion 18:38
Yeah. And one of the things I'll do to I'm sorry I can't remember which book I got this from, but when you're when I'm looking at the outline for the story, is like you break it down by plot, and then I'll go through and I'll and I'll split it out and say, Okay, what are my three major characters doing in each of these sequences? And you always, you have your protagonist, your antagonist, and then whoever the emotional character is, sometimes just a love interest or a best friend or a mentor, but make sure that each of them is doing something in every scene. And the other thing to keep in mind is, if you want to have a compelling story, the antagonist is the hero of his own story, so they need to be doing something in opposition to the protagonist every time. And so that's all. I'll break it down, and I'll say, I'll have the plot, and then, like a one sentence description about what each my protagonist, my antagonist and my emotional character are doing in that scene as well. And that helps. And you can start seeing character arcs and theme. You know, having a theme is also very important, and that's a kind of a controversial topic, because I know some people have different definitions about what theme is, but, you know, it's just some sort of statement about the universal human condition. You know, working that, and that's where that emotional character usually comes in, helping resonate, you know, to become a change agent, to bring your protagonist from wherever they are at the beginning of the film through their character arc to the end, to that changed person at the end. And you can figure all that out in the outline. It's so much easier to do it in the outline stays and write your whole script and then realize, Oh, nothing changed or it doesn't have the heart that it needs. I'd much rather do all that work up front, in the outline stage, when it's easier to fix and see and see those problems.

Dave Bullis 20:30
Yeah, and you're right too, because, you know, as I've found, you know, and reading other scripts, and even in my own scripts, the antagonist is sort of the person leading the film, because they're the sort of the ones you know in a superhero movie, that's a super the superhero you know, meet the antagonist when the antagonist launches their plan. You know what I mean, like, and you see that in the Avengers movies. So the antagonist, and even in horror movies like, you know, Friday 13th, Jason's the one sort of, you know, going through the film, and he's taken out these teenagers one by one, up until one of them finds, you know, oh my gosh, where's my friend that they go look for, they find a dead body, then Jason springs and attacks again. Yourself like that. You find the antagonist really is sort of the engine of the whole story,

Nicole Jones Dion 21:08
Yeah, and that's why you have to spend much time developing your antagonist as as you do your protagonist and, you know, and make them real, flesh them out. Don't, don't come up with the two dimensional, you know, mustache twirling villain. It's like, give them a goal and a motivation and a reason for doing what they're doing, and just, you know, be evil for the sake of being evil. Okay, sometimes you can get away with that, but I think sympathetic villains, or at least empathetic villains, are always much more powerful and much more effective.

Dave Bullis 21:38
Yeah, very true. And you touched on theme. I, you know, I was talking to another writer about this, about whether the theme should be one word. I've also heard the theme should always be a question, you know, you know, what would you do to achieve your goal? You know, big question mark at the end there, you know, because I've seen, you know, like you were saying, you know, it's always a statement about the the human condition. And some people have said, well, it should be a question that the movie answers. If you know what I mean,

Nicole Jones Dion 22:01
Yeah. I mean, I don't. I don't have, like, absolute, you know, when it comes theme, it's like, yeah. Sometimes it takes the form of a question, sometimes it's a statement. It just has to be something universal and that everyone can relate to. And I would also caution against, you know, writing from a soapbox, you know, where you're you have an agenda that you're trying to preach down onto people, I think that usually falls flat in the in the telling. It's, I think it's much better to take something like a universal theme and then explore it from different angles and maybe leave the ending ambiguous. Like, what is, you know, like, raise this big question, but then maybe there are several answers. And this is just one of many, you know, and the attack, and I think in the best stories, the antagonist and the protagonist are both trying to achieve the same theme, I guess, or approach that same theme, but from different directions. And you know, maybe you agree with them, maybe you don't, but at least now, it opens a thought provoking conversation about who we are as humans, and that sort of thing, I don't know, kind of cool.

Dave Bullis 23:03
Yeah, I think that is an actual way to put it. And, you know, because, you know, I think when we, when, when we, when we get better. I think, you know, as I realized too, about when we get better at certain things, like, you know, for instance, you were talking about writing the treatment in the outline, there's a skills you need to have. And that's also something that I've realized, too, is that, you know, as we the more, the more of what we do, the better we get at it. You know what I mean? That's usually a rule, you know, a rule of thumb, so to speak. And so when we, when we're writing a theme or treatment, or even we're writing, you know, the script itself, we're always trying to get better at doing those fine details, and that's a trick of screenwriting? No, because we're always trying to put all these different skills together. You know what I mean? Building a World, building a character, writing compelling action lines, writing compelling stories, you know it's, it's and themes and all that stuff. That's why screenwriting, I think, is so challenging at the end of the day.

Nicole Jones Dion 23:55
Yeah, and there's always room to grow. There's always room to new to learn new things and try new skills. I'm always trying to get better. I'm never you know. I've had four films made and a fifth one that's in post production right now, and I'm not an expert. I don't claim to know it all. There's always things out there to learn from other people, read scripts, from professional writers who are better than you, and push yourself to get to that next level, because there's always room to grow Absolutely.

Dave Bullis 24:22
And speaking of some of those movies, you know, you had Tekken two, because you use revenge. You know that that movie came out in 2014 so, you know, you know, how did you get, you know, how would you get aboard that project?

Nicole Jones Dion 24:35
Well, it was the same people who had done Dracula. So Dracula was, like, a, like, a proving ground, and then they're like, oh, we'd like to bring you. We'd like to we'd like to invite you back for Tekken. And Tekken had its own unique challenges, because originally, our vision with that one was we wanted to do something that was very, very true to the video game and very true to the fans, because the director, who was attached at the time was, like, a huge tech fan, very passionate about it, and we pitched them this all. Awesome, awesome thing, and that's not what they wanted to do. They wanted to do something different. And so there's been some a little bit of pushback from the the Tekken community, because they're like, this isn't really a second movie. And I'm like, Dude, I wish you could have seen the original treatment, because that was, it was awesome. And you know, maybe someday that movie will get made. It's just, in this case, the producers wanted to do something a little different. So we, at the end of the day, I'm just a hired gun, you know, you give them what you You're there to make the producer happy and give them what they want.

Dave Bullis 25:28
So, yeah, yeah, you know, I agree with that completely. You know, that's why, you know, I have had friends in simple situations, and, you know, at that point, yeah, you, you know, like you just said, you realize you're the Hired Gun, you know, the producer, it's whatever you know, since they hired you, you're, you know, you have to deliver what they're looking for, you know. And I have friends who are who've had similar situations where they were trying to always force the issue, and, you know, things didn't go well. Let's just say that.

Nicole Jones Dion 25:53
Nicole, yeah, it's like, you know, you have to remember, if you're writing a spec, that's yours. You can do whatever you want, but if you're writing for someone else, and your job then, is to take their vision and make the best possible version of that vision. You know, even if you don't necessarily agree with the vision, that's not what you're there for. I mean, you can raise objections or whatever, try to but at the end of the day, you work for them, it's their idea. Give them the best possible version of their idea that you can

Dave Bullis 26:21
Yes, yeah, I concur. And, you know, speaking of your projects, we actually moved and talked to about debris, which is, you know, your short horror film, you know, you actually raised just about $20,000 on Indiegogo. You raised 330% over your goal. So I have to, you know, ask us, you know, I have to ask, you know, can you just give us a little bit, you know, about what debris is about, and I want to ask you too, about, you know, your crowdfunding campaign.

Nicole Jones Dion 26:48
Yeah, you know, debris was really funny because it was the first time I tried to do crowdfunding. And I was like, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing. We're gonna this. This is gonna be a mess. So I only originally asked for 5000 which wasn't gonna be nearly enough to get the film made. But I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't you know, I don't know if I'll be lucky if I get that. And then the fact that we were able to raise, you know, almost 20 was mind blowing. I mean, it got to the point where I'm like, Who are you people, and why are you giving me money? I don't understand. And I wish I could, I wish magic formula wise, so I could, like, replicate it at will. And I've done another crowdfunding campaign since then for another short film called death date, which is also successful, but not the same runaway train that debris was. And I think the difference is debris just had this really cool concept, like a really high concept, that people resonated with. And so the concept behind debris is, in the aftermath of the Fukushima tsunami, you have the curse down on his luck. Traitor Hunter is out with a metal detector on a California beach and finds a cursed samurai sword that's washed up on the beach from the Fukushima tsunami wreckage and and then he brings it home, and bad things happen. But I think by having this, you know, there's people love samurais. There's a huge like, cult following, I guess, just around Sam rise, and the fact that the story itself was based on an actual Japanese legend, and there's been a variety of films made in Japan about this particular store and the bad things that happened to the people who own it. But I thought this was kind of an interesting approach, because now it's like East meets West. You have this very ignorant American finds a sword, doesn't realize it's dangerous, and then what you know as his life slowly unravels. So yeah, we made the short film, and it, I think it's been in probably, oh God over. It's been in over a dozen festivals, like genre festivals. It's been nominated for a bunch of awards. It won a couple of awards. And so with that one, now I've I'm trying to turn it into a feature, if possible. So I've written a feature version of the script going out to different producers, see if I can find someone who'd be interested in tackling the subjects on a broader, you know, on a bigger scale, because there's interest, I think it's, I think it's a project that people like and would be like to see more of, you know, more of the story, more of the sword and just make it bigger. Do more.

Dave Bullis 29:03
Is that online anywhere for I want to check out?

Nicole Jones Dion 29:06
The trailers available online, because it's still technically in the festival circuit. I can't release the film itself. We'll probably, we'll see where things are at by the end of the year, but I think we'll probably finish our festival run by the end of the year, and then maybe we'll, we'll either release it or we're also looking into getting distribution deals internationally. So it might be available on, I don't know, video on demand, or something TV, whatever markets are available out there.

Dave Bullis 29:31
Cool, you know, yeah, I definitely think there's a market for something like that. And you know, when I saw, you know, how much, by the end I saw, how much this is, how much this is raising, which I think I donated $5 to this, our camera. Oh, my pleasure. Cuz, I, you know, I checked on, I checked it, checked on it a couple, you know, a couple weeks later, and I saw, well, you know, this is almost ending. And I was like, wow. Nicole is killing it. I was like, well, here, if 330% past our goal, I mean. And I thought, you know. Either somebody has a huge contact list, or somebody, well, I said, you know, somebody did something, right? You know, somewhere, you know, either you have a massive contact list, you you know, you have a rich, very rich relative donate, you know, money into it.

Nicole Jones Dion 30:23
I have no rich relatives. I wish. No, this was definitely like the Bernie Sanders of the crowdfunding campaign. It was a lot of small donations, you know, and they just added up over time. And, no, it was really phenomenal just to watch the response to this idea and this little film. It was really gratifying, and it gave us a lot of confidence that we were making a story that people wanted, you know, the people wanted to see, and that resonated with people and, you know, and that, at the end of the day, that's really what it's about, you know, telling stories that people want to hear and maybe make them think a little bit along the way.

Dave Bullis 30:56
Yeah, I concur. And, you know, obviously, you know, the concept was popular as well as you were saying. And you know, there's always a crowd for an audience for horror of any kind. You know what? I mean, there's always gonna be an audience for horror.

Nicole Jones Dion 31:11
Yeah, well, and it's funny, because, you know, the when I was doing all the research for debris, and then the feature length script for debris, I stumbled on this other samurai story. And so I'm like, Okay, I have to write this one. It's true story set in fuel Japan, and that was a script that ended up winning the grand prize at the Palm street film writing competition. So it's like, I wouldn't do my little samurai phase, I guess. And it's great. I love it. I love action films. I love martial arts films and and so it's like, I also, I always cost and writers about, you know, pigeonholing, because Hollywood will pigeonhole you. And I'm like, You know what? If this is a hole I got stuck in, it's one I wouldn't mind living in, because I just love that space so much.

Dave Bullis 31:55
Yeah, and you actually, by the way, congratulations, because you just did, you just did win the palm palm, palm street competition. What was that? Was it on Monday, I believe, or Tuesday?

Nicole Jones Dion 32:06
They just announced the winners, like, Monday or Tuesday this week? Yeah. So that's that's very new, and, you know? And that was kind of interesting, because I don't normally enter contest, because I'm a genre writer generally, and those unless it's a genre specific competition that don't do well, and these broad mainstream contests. But in this case, because it was, it was actually an action drama, you know, set in feudal Japan with Samurais and binges, and it's just like going in all kinds of blood in action. Hey, you know, this one might actually stand a chance and, and then it ended up winning the grand prize. So that was really gratifying.

Dave Bullis 32:38
So, you know, I know you can't talk too much about it. But so I wanted to ask, obviously, is, you know what upcoming projects that you what upcoming projects are you working on that you can actually talk about, if any, if any you can talk about.

Nicole Jones Dion 32:50
I mean, well, see. So there's my, my feature film that I directed, stasis, which is currently in post. We already have distribution lined up for that, which is really exciting too. So that film supposed to be ready for ASM, which is in November, and that's kind of at the YA sci fi film. It's been called Terminator for teens. So if you like time travel, a terminator type things, you know, check it out when it comes out. I think that'll be really cool. What else I'm working right now? I'm trying to raise money for my next feature, which is a horror script that's based loosely on actual events. So I don't want to give too much away about that, but that one, in fact, seems like a phone with you. I have a call with the producer for that. So that'd be, that'd be nice to get that started production before the end of the year. And, yeah, what else I'm just, you know, I always got things going on. We're still in post production on death date, which is the other short film that I did after debris. It's a meeting with my editor next week. We're gonna try to lock picture on that soon. And I don't know, I mean, you just gotta multiple irons in the fire, you know, waiting for something to hit. Just keep on chugging.

Dave Bullis 34:00
Yeah. Yeah. And then is that is excellent advice, Nicole, before we go, I have one Twitter question. Come in, okay? And that was Nicole, what do you look for when you're deciding to be involved with a particular project?

Nicole Jones Dion 34:15
That is always the million dollar question, right? It's like, it has to, it has to appeal to me at some level. I don't know. It's hard to say I'm because I have this genre background I love what I guess if it were literature, it'd be called speculative fiction, basically Twilight Zone type stuff. Things that appeal to me personally are things that and really cool twists at the end, or are just thought provoking in some way. I love, like, old sci fi from like, the 70s and 80s, when there was, like, some sort of, like social message, but it was buried within the context of the film. You know what I mean, like with story link green and Planet of the Apes and Logan's Run those types of films I really like, from a sci fi perspective, on the horror side. Yeah, I I'm drawn more towards what I call hidden realities. So less flashers, more paranormal, more occult, more supernatural type stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I just have to something that's cool, like, if it could be made into a video game or a comic book camp is our I'd like it because that's where I That's my world. That's where I come from.

Dave Bullis 35:27
Nicole, very cool. You know, it's been a pleasure having you on and before I go, I just want to ask Nicole, where can people find you out online?

Nicole Jones Dion 35:34
Oh, I'm on Facebook. You'll find me on Facebook if you like weird news, then totally follow me on Twitter. I'm at novari, N, O, V, A, R, I, S, I post all kinds of wacky, weird news stories, conspiracy theories, and every now and then, I'll toss in a screenwriting tip, just you know, for good measure. Yeah, but that's and I'm on LinkedIn too, but mostly I like, I live on Facebook and Twitter, so that's a good place to look for me.

Dave Bullis 36:00
Yeah, yeah. I saw the tweet you just put out on NASA predicts the end of Western civilization,

Nicole Jones Dion 36:04
Yeah, stuff like that, post punk window stuff into the world, stuff conspiracy theories. Killer virus is gonna wipe out humanity. If you like that stuff. Follow me on Twitter. It's full of it.

Dave Bullis 36:17
Nicole, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I wish you the best of luck with everything, and I will see you in the screenwriting you Facebook group. And we'll, you know, we'll, we'll be chatting screenwriting there more. And you know, if you ever need anything, please let me know.

Nicole Jones Dion 36:33
Awesome. Thanks so much, Dave. This is great.

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BPS 449: From Setbacks to Festival Wins: The Filmmaking Path of Dawn Fields

December 11, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The magic of cinema often begins in the unlikeliest of places. For Dawn Fields, it all started when she signed up as an extra on the film Love Potion No. 9. What was supposed to be a day in front of the camera became a lifelong passion for the world behind it. Watching the crew work, she realized her true calling wasn’t to act, but to create. That spark ignited a journey that would carry her from the film sets of Atlanta to the heart of Los Angeles, where she would build a career as a producer, writer, and director—one forged not by ease, but by relentless perseverance.

Dawn cut her teeth in the early 1990s, working on big productions in Georgia as Hollywood expanded into the South. She worked her way up as a production assistant, grinding through long hours and tough assignments until she eventually landed opportunities with major companies like Lucasfilm, Fox, and NBC. But even with those early credits, she quickly learned that the film industry is as unforgiving as it is intoxicating. Seeking greater opportunity, she packed her life into a U-Haul and drove across the country to Los Angeles with nothing guaranteed. That leap of faith marked the beginning of a new chapter—one filled with both remarkable experiences and the kind of hard lessons every filmmaker eventually faces.

Her early years in Los Angeles brought valuable experience in acquisitions and distribution, where she scouted films at festivals and courted agents. But the allure of production kept pulling her back. Founding her company, Palm Street Films, she launched projects that taught her the intricacies of independent filmmaking, from raising money to navigating the demands of pre-production. Her first big crowdfunding effort, Zombie Elves, became a crash course in audience engagement and marketing. The idea—a zombie outbreak at the North Pole—generated excitement, but Dawn soon realized that a strong fan base is essential long before a campaign launches. The project may not have hit its funding goals, but it gave her the foundation to succeed later.

The pivotal turning point came with Shattered Love, a powerful short script she developed from a contest. What began with enthusiasm spiraled into a nightmare of budget overruns, director clashes, and ultimately a shutdown mid-shoot. The experience was crushing. As Dawn recalls, “I was heartbroken. It was the most devastating thing that’s ever happened to me, and for a moment, I thought about walking away from the industry.” But instead of leaving, she doubled down. Recognizing that she lacked directing experience to fully protect her vision, she made the bold decision to step into the director’s chair herself.

Her determination led to 209, a hotel-room drama that she later expanded into Found. That film not only premiered at festivals but won awards, including Best Director. Suddenly, Dawn had the redemption she was looking for. She had proven to herself—and to the industry—that she could take a project from concept to recognition. This confidence opened the door to even more ambitious work, including Fragile Storm, a short starring veteran actor Lance Henriksen. Securing a name talent was a challenge, but it elevated the project’s profile and showed her that persistence in negotiation and preparation can yield remarkable opportunities.

Through each project, Dawn has built a body of work that reflects both her resilience and her growing voice as a filmmaker. She openly shares the lessons she’s learned along the way—like how physical perks in crowdfunding can eat up budgets, or how vital it is to know exactly what kind of film you’re making before cameras roll. She’s also passed her knowledge on through seminars and script contests, helping other filmmakers navigate the same hurdles she once faced.

The picture that emerges from her journey is not one of overnight success, but of a career carved out by sheer tenacity. Independent filmmaking is filled with obstacles—funding shortfalls, casting challenges, crew missteps—but Dawn’s story reminds us that every setback can be fuel for the next project. As she continues developing features and guiding new voices through Palm Street Films, her career stands as a reminder that filmmaking is not just about vision, but about the will to keep creating when everything seems stacked against you.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:47
Hey everyone joining me today is Dawn Fields. Dawn is a Los Angeles based producer, writer, director, and owner of the feature film production company palm street films. She has been she has over 20 years of experience working as a producer, writer, director, assistant director, editor, and she has a background in acquisitions and development. Dawn has raised over $100,000 for her short films exclusively through Indiegogo. And she has also worked for such companies as Lucas, film, 20th century, Fox, Tristar, ABC, NBC, Aaron Spelling productions and Morgan Creek. Dawn how are you?

Dawn Fields 2:29
Hey, good morning, Dave. I'm great. How are you?

Dave Bullis 2:31
Pretty good. Thanks. It's actually snowing right here in PA.

Dawn Fields 2:33
Ohh, goodness, okay. Well, it's cold here too, but everybody just laughs at us when we complain about the cold in LA,

Dave Bullis 2:42
yeah, I think the high today is going to be like seven or eight.

Dawn Fields 2:45
No way, yeah. Oh gosh, okay. Well, I'm going to stop complaining then about how cold it is here.

Dave Bullis 2:50
So Dawn, just to get us started, could you give us a little bit about your background?

Dawn Fields 2:55
Yeah, sure. Of course. I started in the film business in Atlanta, Georgia, in the early 1990s when all of the Hollywood companies were coming out to Georgia to take advantage of the fact that it was a right to work state, the fact that, you know, people were more cooperative. They actually got excited to give you their location. And so there was a lot of a lot of good energy and spirit going on there. So Georgia really attracted a lot of big budget films that were coming through the South in the in the early 90s. Excuse me, and I started out as a production assistant, and it was funny, because how that happened was, is my dad growing up, my dad always told me I should be an actress. And so there was a film called Love Potion number nine, which was in town shooting at the time. That's the film that actually launched Sandra Bullock's career, and was written and directed by the wonderful Dale Larner. It was actually his directorial debut. He's a prolific writer and moved into directing. But anyway, I signed up to be an extra on that set, and I was just, it was my first time on a film set, and I was just, I was hooked. I was just blown away. And I'm like, This is amazing. And and I realized very quickly that I really didn't really want to be in front of the camera. I wanted to be behind it. And so one of the PAs that was in charge of the extras, I was just really taken with. And I said, you know, how did you get your job? This looks really fascinating. And he said, Well, it's it literally is who you know. And I turned to him and I said, Well, I know you. And he literally got me my first job in the business. And the first thing I got hired to do was go to Ann Bancroft. And Bancroft played madam Ruth, and my first assignment was to go to her hotel room and read lines with her, and that was really an amazing experience. And she was a wonderful, wonderful person. I'll never forget that. And then from there, I got assigned to extras casting, and I got a lot of experience in the whole world of extras casting, which is a brutal job, and I have mad respect for the people who do that work. And. Then from there, I just kind of worked my way up. I thought I wanted to be in the DGA as an ad. I was working towards that and trying to get my days. At the time, you had to have 650 days as a PA to qualify for the DGA. So I was working on my days. And I think I got up to like 350 days on various films throughout the southeast, including young Indiana Jones, the TV show where I got the opportunity to work with George Lucas, that was amazing. So I thought that was the path I wanted to take. And then after, after I worked all those pa days, I started, like wanting more and to move up the ladder. So I started being a first ad on some short form projects like short films and music videos and commercials and industrials and stuff like that, and I realized very quickly that I couldn't be that close to the camera without wanting to be involved in the creative decisions. So that's when I moved into producing with the, you know, realizing that being an ad wasn't necessarily the career path that I wanted to take, but it was definitely something I enjoyed.

Dave Bullis 6:00
So, you know, that was absolutely amazing. You got to, you know, read lines and Bancroft,

Dawn Fields 6:04
Yeah, it was, and it's, it's a it was very hard for me when I heard that she had passed. That was tough. I know I didn't know her that well, but still, whenever you meet someone and you kind of share a bond with them, you feel like you know them. And she was a wonderful, wonderful woman. That was, that was a tragedy for sure.

Dave Bullis 6:20
Absolutely, I'm sorry. Don't did I cut you off there? I'm sorry if I did. No, no, no, not at all. Okay, I do. I thought, yeah, I'm sorry. I sometimes have a tendency to do that just to interject.

Dawn Fields 6:34
No, please. I like that because I don't want to feel like I don't want you to feel like you can't get a word in edgewise. I don't want to just talk and talk and talk. But I tell you, I could. I have so many stories, and I have so much to say about this business, I I could talk for days, so feel free to cut me off anytime.

Dave Bullis 6:46
Well, that's good. Stories are good because I like, I always say people want to tune for the guests, not me, because I have a very nasally high, whiny voice, and I like your voice. Oh, thank you. When I'm playing these podcasts back, I'm like, Oh, my goodness, is what I sound like.

Dawn Fields 7:00
Oh god, I'm same way when I see myself on camera. I can't stand it. Um, so, so, anyway, so, um, once I started getting into producing, I realized very quickly that the there was no real money in Atlanta, you know, you could work on crew, because there was a lot of films coming through. But, you know, the all the big shows coming through were union, and I had decided not to go the DGA route and not to be a union ad. So I started kind of branching out on my own, doing my own thing, and tried to raise some money for a couple of Feature Ideas and a couple of scripts. And then I just realized, wow, there's just no there's no film at the time, there was no film business there. And I, and I don't think there still is a film business there. I think it's still just a lot of movies coming through and a lot of things being shot there. There's certainly not the industry that there is out here where all the agents and managers and distribute, you know, studio, studio heads and distribution companies and stuff like that, Atlanta still doesn't have all that, but it's blowing up right now. There's like, 1000 things filming there. But, um, so I realized very quickly that Atlanta was not really where I needed to be. So in 2000 I literally, I remember I was walking my dog on a Tuesday, and I'd been thinking about it for a long time, and I stopped in my tracks, and I just looked down at my dog and I said, You know what, it's time. And two weeks later, I was gone, and I packed up everything I owned in a U haul, and I drove out here with no job, no apartment. Had a few connections, friends that I knew, let me sleep on their couch till I found a place. But I really just took that leap of faith that I came out here with nothing. And the first, the first several years, well, I've had a lot, you know, I've been here 15 years now, and I would say 75% of that have been tough times. I mean, this is, this is a brutal industry, and for anybody who thinks that it who thinks that it's not, maybe some people have it easy, but most of us have to really struggle and fight for it. And it's, it's been a struggle almost every step of the way. But I think that just speaks to how badly you have to want something, because it's still something that I want more than anything, and it always has been. And so you just, you figure out how to make it work. So the the first job that I had when I moved out here was for a medium sized, kind of, on the small side, distribution and production company, where it was a really interesting position they put me in. I was the vice president of distribution, and I was the vice president of acquisitions. So that was really cool, because I got to go to all the film festivals to scour finished films for us to acquire. And I got to, you know, reach out to filmmakers for finished films, to see which ones we might want to acquire for distribution. But I also got to go to, like, pitch panels and meet with agents. I was wining and dining agents a lot and looking for scripts that our production arm could produce. So that was like a really great experience. And quite honestly, they paid me pretty well. It was a really nice base salary plus commission, which was real. So it's really kind of a nice job. But again, I found myself like I missing being in production. You know, I was working in an office all day, and I was helping other people with their films, but I wasn't being able to do my films, even though that was a great job, it lasted about three months. Excuse me. And then I left that job and decided I wanted to do my own thing. So I found a couple of scripts that I really liked. Was in development on those for quite a while, and before I knew it, like several years had gone by and I hadn't, still hadn't produced anything, I was ad in here and there, just for, for for freelance and helping people here and there with their shoots. But wasn't really doing what I wanted to do. So I remember, it was in 2012 I believe late 2012 I finally just said, You know what? I've had enough. I just want to make a movie. And by this time, I had acquired over 5000 friends on Facebook. Well, right at 5000 friends, because they cap it at that. But I had reached my 5000 limit of friends on Facebook, which was an account I created. Like I had a friends and family account when I first moved here, but my friends and family, I think they got tired of me only talking about film all the time, because that's all I talked about. So about five years ago, maybe it's been more now, I created a Facebook profile for myself just to interact and engage with other filmmakers. And that just grew organically out of my need and my desire to friend other filmmakers and other film companies, and just kind of keep up to date on what everybody else was doing. I was just fascinated. I simply wanted to know what everybody else was doing, and that, in a crazy way, just organically grew to the point where I now have almost 5000 friends. I have to keep it limited so I can add new people as I actually make friends, not just connections, but actual friends and people I know, so I have to kind of keep that limited. But several years ago, Facebook opened up subscribers, and people could follow you, even on top of friending you, and really quickly, I had amassed over 12,400 people as subscribers that are all in the film business. So Little did I know at the time how beneficial overall that was going to be for me in my career. Because as we get into discussions a little bit later on about crowdfunding and how I've financed all my films, it's almost exclusively come from that, that base of friends and followers.

Dave Bullis 12:41
So you know, that's absolutely amazing. And, you know, really quickly, I just wanted to ask you, you know, how do you decide who to delete on that 5000 friends? You know, because I'm coming through that cap too, when I'm just like, well, who gets cut here? How do you make that decision?

Dawn Fields 12:55
Yeah, well, you know, when I first started friending people, way back in the early day, I would friend anybody from anywhere. I actually had friended a whole bunch of you know, back then you could go in and do a search for terms like film, movie, film industry, those kind of though I was putting in terms like that, and all these suggestions were coming up, and I just friended and liked all of them, and a huge handful of them were foreign, and some of them were in foreign languages, even that I couldn't understand. But at the time, I was just like, reached out to everybody. Once I started getting close to my 5000 that's the first thing I went in and did, is I went in and started eliminating those companies and those people that were foreign where I couldn't even understand what they were saying. But now it's actually become quite a problem, because every film I work on I meet, you know, 10, 20, 30 new people, and I want to friend all of them. And as I go through, you know, various pre production and development and castings and all that kind of stuff, I'm always meeting new people. So I've had to go through many times and just make the tough decision of who to cut. And Facebook doesn't make it easy. Unfortunately, I wish that there was a really simple way to just go in and delete like people who haven't been active in six months to a year, because there's a lot of accounts that people create that they don't ever do anything with, but they don't really make it that easy. But I can tell you this if you if you have a well, there's a couple ways you can do it. If you go to hang on, let me just pull my microphone over here my other computer. If you go to your profile on Facebook and you click on the Friends tab. There's a couple of categories there. You can bring up your friends, if you'll notice, you can bring up recently added. You can bring up work friends, college friends, high school, current city. There's a couple of other followers following. There's several select. Comes there, it will group them by that. And Facebook's algorithms are such that the people you interact with most are going to come up first, and everybody else comes up after. So you could conceivably go into any one of those categories, or just look at your friends group as a whole, and just scroll all the way down to the end. And that's going to take you about 15 minutes, probably, if you have 5000 friends, but you can scroll all the way down, and you know you have to look at the people too and make sure, but for the most part, the lesser active people are going to be down at the bottom. And then you can click on each one of those decide if you want a friend or friend them or not or unfriend them.

Dave Bullis 15:35
You know that's interesting because you know it Twitter makes it a lot easier, because you can use different programs, like manage, filter or footer, I think it's called. And then, you know, you can actually just see who's been inactive for, you know, three months, four months, etc, and you can follow those people,

Dawn Fields 15:49
Don't we all wish Facebook would do that. I, you know, Facebook, I don't think wants you to unfollow people is probably their whole thing. But, um, yeah, I wish it were that easy. But, you know, I I think that you shouldn't be friending people you don't know anyway, but, but the truth is, it's kind of ridiculous that Facebook limits people to 5000 that's never made any sense to me how they want to control how many friends I have.

Dave Bullis 16:16
Yeah, what I've been doing is with close to my 5000 friends, a little bit I've started to realize, like, I think a lot of friends from high school probably, like, I don't talk to most of them anyway. I mean, most of them found me like, I, like you just said, I usually only friend request people that I know, or have met at a networking party or have met somewhere else, and then I'll firm request them or, you know, etc. But you know, a lot of and also, you know, I think some people too, like you just said, with all you talk about is film, like, oh, well, I talk about film too. My, my social media sites are very rarely anything political or religious or anything like that. So usually it's all film stuff, because that's all I want to talk about, you know, I don't want to talk about politics or religion online. You know what?

Dawn Fields 16:57
I mean, yeah, I know. And that's, there's, you know, you and I could be fast friends. That's one of the things that ties James and I together. James pipedon is a really good friend of mine. He actually started working for me in my production office a couple years ago as an intern, and slowly has now made his way up to helping me produce stuff. He's a producer now, and he's actually, in the next month or so, or in the in the month of March, I believe, is going to direct for the first time. So, and that's kind of what we have in common. And I don't, I don't think anybody else outside the business could stand being around the two of us for 10, you know, for any length of time, because it's all we talk about.

Dave Bullis 17:31
Yeah, I know what, to me, it's all my friends talk about, too, is, you know, we talk about a lot of film stuff. And, you know, screenwriting writers groups this and that, you know, it's just that way. You know what you're getting stuff into. So, so everyone, if you subscribe to dawn on Facebook, that's all you're going to hear is about film stuff, which, that's true, which I think is a great thing, by the way,

Dawn Fields 17:53
However, however, I will say, though, that the more I started engaging with my filmmaker friends on Facebook, the less I started interacting with my friends and family. I'm sad to say, I don't even use my friends and family account anymore. So what you'll find on my on my Facebook account now, is it's kind of a mix. I do talk about, you know, the foods I like to cook and the things I like to do for fun and I do and my opinions on things. So it has kind of become a hybrid. Because, you know, I do so many crowdfunding campaigns, and I do so many things like seminars now. I'm doing seminars now, and I have a script contest. I don't want people to think I'm just trying to, like, be a business and shove all my business stuff in their face. So, you know, I just, that's my own, my only account now, and that's where I share, really, my it's really become my personal and my professional profile, because I'm because I'm on it all the time. I just, I don't have time to go back to my friends and family more. It's very sad. They all miss me. But I keep you know, most of them are friends on my face. You know, my filmmaker Facebook as well. So I always tell them, if they want to know what's going on with me to, you know, click on that one and join that one. And most of them have, so,

Dave Bullis 19:05
Yeah, that's a good way to keep in contact too. Is, I mean, honestly, I tried to have multiple Facebooks and that that wasn't gonna that, that just I was, like, mine, this is a lot of work. So what I did was, if anyone was keeping contact with me, like, you know what I mean, like, I usually just post stuff, like, what I'm doing, this is what I'm up to. And there, that's it, you know. And we've caught up. So, yeah, I just, I usually post everything I'm doing so,

Dawn Fields 19:29
But yeah, and there is something to be said for you know, your friends and family you should be hanging out with and calling on the phone. So, you know? So, so I tell my friends and family, I'm like, Hey, if you miss me, pick up the phone and call me. You don't have to go to Facebook to go to Facebook to see what I'm doing,

Dave Bullis 19:49
You know. And just you know, speaking of, you know what you're doing, you know. Just to talk about, you know, all your projects, I really want to you know, because you have a lot of really interesting film projects here. You know, you started palm street films in what year?

Dawn Fields 20:08
I believe I started it in 2010 I had had an another production company before that, called Glass mountain entertainment, but we never really had any projects that we ran through there or had anything really happen with it. We were more in just development on things. So I don't even remember why I ended up closing that one and changing the name, but I did, I guess just rebranding, remarketing. Wasn't sure I loved the name, so rebranded and launched a new company. I believe in 2010 is when we started that.

Dave Bullis 20:38
So, you know, then could you talk about, you know, your first project with palm street films, which is bonds and lace

Dawn Fields 20:45
Actually, Dave, I will. I'm going to actually go more old school than that. The actual, there were actually three documentaries that I had in development and in production. Actually there. Some of them are as much as 80% shot that. That were the first things that I did through the company, but one, we ran out of money for the documentaries, which is one thing, but then I just started realizing that documentaries, it's a whole different style of filmmaking. It's a whole different set of rules. It's all it's completely different. It's really, truly apples and oranges from narrative filmmaking. And as much as I had these personal stories that I really wanted to tell, I just kept being gravitated back towards narrative. And so I still want to finish those documentaries someday. I haven't shelved them, but it's taking some time to figure out how to get those on autopilot. I would love to hire a documentary person into my company once we actually have some funds to do that with and high and have them help me finish those out. But the actual first project that we ran through palm street films was zombie elves.

Dave Bullis 21:52
Oh, that's right,

Dawn Fields 21:53
Yeah, it again. It came at a time where I'm like, I just want to shoot something. I'm tired of all this talk. I want to make a movie. And I started, you know, started thinking about, what could I do that I would enjoy, that would also be profitable, because for the last few years, I've also really tried to focus on, how do I make a living at this business? How do I not only pay my bills, but hopefully someday make enough money to have a savings account set aside, to have a retirement plan, to have a little nest egg, those, some some financial security, those kinds of things. So zombie else was really my attempt at creating a project that I thought would really succeed financially. And zombies were really hot at the time, and you just can't go wrong with the marketing power of Christmas. And so I thought, You know what would happen if you created a situation where there was a zombie outbreak on the North Pole and everybody just went crazy over the idea, and they laughed, and they thought it was hysterical. And we just had so much fun developing that project. And we did actually get a script written. The script kind of went in a direction that was not right. We sent it out for some feedback, and people just really didn't enjoy it. I don't think, I think we went too much zombie and not enough Christmas. And people really wanted that. There needed to be some Christmas spirit in there. There needed to be a lesson learned. There needed to be some some magic of Christmas. We kind of didn't put any of that stuff in there, and it turned out that it wasn't very satisfying for audiences. But zombie elves was actually my first crowdfunding campaign, and I made a ton of mistakes on that campaign. That's, that's part of where I start my seminars now is talking about zombie elves, and that's, that's really the campaign that I learned all my lessons on.

Dave Bullis 23:38
You know, I remember zombie elves. I actually donated and I still have that T shirt.

Dawn Fields 23:43
Well, here's the thing that's so funny. It's like, we we were so excited about the marketing power of this film that long before we even thought about crowdfunding, we wanted to set up merchandise, because everybody was telling me that horror films love their merch, right? And so we were like, Okay, great. Well, let's do these T shirts, and let's do this calendar, and let's do bumper stickers, and let's do all this merchandise that the horror films are and we, and I started, I created a Facebook account just to start interacting and engaging with horror fans. And I got up to 5000 friends instantly on that. There's a, just a there's a huge following database of horror fans on Facebook and Twitter. I mean, it's just a huge culture of horror fans out there. So we had started creating all that merchandise before we even decided to do crowdfunding. So that's part of the reason we were like, look, we have all this merchandise. We're creating crowdfunding makes sense, because we can offer all those things as perks. And some of the stuff wasn't finished yet. We hadn't finished the calendar yet. We were working on it. Some of the one we had done one, 1t shirt, but wanted to do more. So it just kind of made sense. So we had budgeted the film at $600,000 and we decided that if we could raise, like, $40,000 in development money that would, you know, get me through the six months or so that I needed to pay a writer get a script written, you know, start. Are tackling the very difficult task of casting, because there's the question of a movie like this, do you use little people? Do you use small actors? Do you use children? Do you CGI? It's like, how do you make How do you make the story happen? And at the time, I was a producer, not a director, so I didn't really have a terribly clear vision for it, yet. I knew marketing wise, what I wanted it to be. And from a producer standpoint, I knew what it needed to accomplish, but I didn't really have those director skills yet, so I still wasn't sure really what the film was going to be. So we did. We made the number one mistake that people make in crowdfunding, which is they feel like, if they put it out there, they will come and that's really not true, unless you take years and years to try to make that happen. But the reality of it is, for a campaign to raise that much money, we were looking for $40,000 for that much money, you have to have an existing fan base. You have to because 30 days, or 45 days, or how many ever long days, you can run an Indiegogo campaign or a crowdfunding campaign, you don't have time to all of a sudden whip up 10,000 fans or a million fans. You have to do all that in advance. You have to have an existing fan base to already go out and say to those people, Hey, here's what I'm doing. You've loved my work before. You love me now. Fund this project. I was under the bad assumption that if we put it out there, the horror fans would just glom on and all of a sudden we'd get all this money. And that absolutely didn't happen through my friends and family and Facebook followers and fans. I did manage to raise about $4,000 and since we already had all the merchandise anyway, I had two choices. I'm like, when we didn't hit our goal or come anywhere close to it, I'm like, Well, I can refund everybody's money and be back to absolutely zero, or I can use that money to go ahead and fulfill the perks anyway, and at least give everybody their perks. Because we do still plan on making that film. It's a very difficult film, and it's taking a long time to figure out how to make that film be what it needs to be, but it is definitely not shelved. It's very much alive and well, and we do plan on making that movie. And now that I'm directing, I'm actually very, very excited about the opportunity to direct it. So that's a whole nother development that's happened just in the last two years that wasn't in place there. But I'm so glad you got your shirt and your calendar, and I hope you enjoy it. Hang on to it, because it because it may be worth something someday.

Dave Bullis 27:24
Oh, yeah, I definitely keep hold on to that. I actually took a picture of that and shared it on some social media sites, and people were like, hey, what movies this? Where can I get this at? And no, and it was, you know, I was like, hey, check out this campaign. That's where I got it from.

Dawn Fields 27:38
It's a great idea. It's, it's going to be, you know, I always tell people, the more I talk to people in Hollywood, the more I find out it's the kind of movie that everybody wants to see but nobody wants to make, because it's difficult. You know, you have to build that world. You have to create a set. You have to build the North Pole. You have to envision it. Because, you know, you can have it be a different North Pole than we've seen before, which is my vision for it. You know, like I said, there's a lot of options in casting. None of them are cheap. By the way, all three of those options that I listed, little people, children, CGI, none of those are cheap. And, you know, everybody wants to make zombies for $200,000 and put it out on the market, and then just see if it becomes this cult classic. You can't make that film for $200,000 and so it's been a bit of a struggle that but the biggest challenge for me is, what is the film? Is it kind of a dark family film, like gremlins? Is it funny and over the top, like a Shaun of the Dead? Is it violent and gruesome, but kind of campy, like a, you know, leprechaun wasn't that gruesome. But is it kind of a leprechaun kind of thing where you have kind of the comedic element of these small individuals, you know, because that's kind of funny in itself, really, you know, or do you just take it really seriously and treat it like just this all out zombie survival story, which is what we did in the first draft, and that didn't really resonate with people. So the biggest challenge for me with this film is really just trying to figure out almost what genre to put it in. But more specifically, what do you want it to be to the audience? A comedy, a slasher film? You know? What is it that's that's where I'm hung up right now, and I'm getting really close to making that decision, but the choice I'm about to make is not cheap, and so that is its own problem.

Dave Bullis 29:38
If you ever want someone to bounce ideas off of dawn. Please feel free to always contact me.

Dawn Fields 29:43
Oh, sure, absolutely, I would love that. Oh, you know, I'm finishing up my last two short films now that are in post, and then the then we are moving into, what are we going to do for our first feature? I don't know if zombies is going to be the first feature, because it is difficult and expensive and complicated, but it will definitely be the second. I might do a. Our character piece first. But it's, it's definitely on the list, and it's definitely going to happen, excellent.

Dave Bullis 30:18
And yeah, so please keep me informed. What's going on, you know, I, you know, I again, I think it's a great idea. And honestly, I think, you know, the marketing, and that is so many different creative ways to make to market that film.

Dawn Fields 30:30
It's almost a no brainer, really. I mean, it almost is. And the reason I love the idea of it right from the beginning is because we, initially, we were going to do it for that $200,000 level, and just, you know, we because we were thinking, you know, even if this sucks, even if this is, like, the worst film, worst film ever made, it's still going to be a cult classic. You know, there's, you almost can't fail with it. And there was a movie called thanks, killing Yes, I've seen that, you know, kind of like that. I mean, they just went in so tongue in cheek, so campy, low production value, but they those guys were just having fun and, you know, kind of poking fun at the genres and all that kind of stuff. And it blew up, and it did really well, and they, they ended up doing a second movie, so, but, but I have now that my tastes have evolved, and I, I don't think I was ever really comfortable going that route with that film, because that's not my style as a producer or director. My style is high production value, high quality that was never really resonating with me to make the film that way.

Dave Bullis 31:26
Yeah, I did. You did mention shot on the dead? And I think that was that would is probably the best way to go, because I, when I heard the concept of the movie, I mean, even something similar, shot of the dead would be hilarious.

Dawn Fields 31:39
Well, it would. But honestly that, you know, the difficult part is, is, I've had the honor of working with several little people throughout this process. We did some castings. We we actually, in our Indiegogo video, needed someone. We did some zombie walks, where we had, you know, some people dressed up as zombie elves, and that was really funny. And people loved that, and they took a lot of pictures. But I have a huge amount of respect for them, and I just want to be very careful in this film that we're not poking fun at them. You know, it's like I want the care if we do go with little people as as the elves. I want to treat them with the utmost respect, and I want them to be serious characters and have serious storylines and character arcs and emotional conflicts and interactions with each other. And so it's, you know? It's like, I teeter back and forth on how funny do I really want it to be? There's some, you know what I'm saying. It's like, it's a challenge. It's a real challenge.

Dave Bullis 32:40
Yeah, yeah, I definitely know what you mean. And you know, you're always, you know, wanting to know that you don't actually make fun of them, but you know, I, honestly, I think you would, you would hit the perfect mix of, you know, humor and horror, and you know, without going over the top. But that again, you know, again, if you ever want, you know, bounce ideas off someone, please let me know

Dawn Fields 33:00
Absolutely, and I appreciate that. And as I've gotten more comfortable in my director's hat, I've I've realized that almost the thing that almost all my films have in common is an emotional intimacy. And I think, well, except for one comedy that I did that really was just kind of a straight up comedy, but all the other films really, have really a very intense, emotional thread to them. So I think a lot of people would question if I'm the right person to do zombie LS, and I would say I absolutely am, because I because I would bring that to the table.

Dave Bullis 33:35
Yeah, I know what you mean by you. Sometimes the comedies can just be comedies, because I've done that too. Like, I made a short film one time, and it was literally, I'm sorry, a feature film. And it was literally just, you know, going over the top every each and every time. And it was what I use as a student film. And literally, that's what I used to, you know, to cut my own teeth on. And it was just, you know, if you weren't in on the joke. Let's say Dawn people just like, either thought this was so ridiculous, some people actually got it, or, like, some people were like, I don't get this at all, Dave. And I'm like, you know, I completely understand. You know?

Dawn Fields 34:09
Well, I learned early on, when I was in development at that company I was telling you about I would get I would come across some comedy scripts that I just thought were gold, that I loved, and I would send them out to some agents who specialized in comedy, and they just wouldn't get it. They wouldn't think it was funny. So I learned really early on that with what they say is true, comedy is subjective.

Dave Bullis 34:27
Oh, absolutely. You know, I was actually just talking to Steve Kaplan today. Steve Kaplan, of you know, he does his comedy, excuse me, Kaplan comedy.com and he's all about, you know, these seminars, and he also has his own book. His book is probably the best book on Comedy I've ever read, and it opened my eyes to what people find funny. How come I find something funny, but you don't? It's kind of like that dress. Everyone saw a line. Some people saw golden, yeah. What color did you see? I saw, uh, golden. White. I.

Dawn Fields 35:00
Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. That's kind of crazy,

Dave Bullis 35:05
But, but yeah, so not to segue too far, but talk about dresses, yeah. So what dresses and everything? Yeah, I was actually gonna go into color theory too, and that's why I was like, let me stop myself, because so you know. But yeah, if you ever get a chance to I highly recommend his book. And his name is again, Steve Kaplan, and he's actually been on the podcast, and he is absolutely phenomenal at this stuff. Oh, great. So okay, so after zombie elves, after you knew, you know, at that, you know, point in time you didn't have the, you know, the right amount of resources to make that, you know, what project did you move on to after that?

Dawn Fields 35:41
Well, it was interesting because I had built enough of a following on Facebook at this point where I'm like, You know what? I know a bunch of writers. Let me just see if I can find a 10 page script or less, something that's easy to shoot, that we can just do over a weekend for very little money. And let's just do that. So I put out a call on my Facebook for scripts, and I got over 300 responses. Wow. And yeah, it was incredible. And so we narrowed that down to the top 15, and we announced that on Facebook, and then we got it to the top 10 and announced that, and the top five, and then the top three, and everybody was so excited every time, you know, we made the announcement of who had made the cut, and the final three scripts, I kind of liked all of them. So I sent them out to about a dozen friends of mine and colleagues who I trusted. And hands down, the winning script was a script called fragment. And this was a short script written by a UK writer named Carly Street. And I can't really say what the script is about, because there's a there's a twist in it to this day that I still don't like to give away, but it was this very powerful script. You think it's one thing. You think it's like this horror film and this kind of torture porn kind of movie, and then in the end, you kind of realize it's something completely different. And um, but Carl Carly's script took place over like five different locations, one of them being a grocery store, one of them being a hospital, and many parts of the hospital not just a room, but a room and a hallway and a bathroom. So we'd have to have, like, a bit like a real hospital, not just a one room set. And anybody in LA knows that those are not expensive and not easy to get. So I'm like, Well, how am I going to do this? So I put my producer hat on, and I said, Carly, what do you think about, you know, she had won $150 cash for the script and that we were gonna make it. So it was pretty good deal for her. So we own the script at that point. And I said, Carly, what do you think about, do you mind if I go in and just kind of make it all happen? I'd asked her to do it initially. I said, you know, do you know, do you think you could go in and make this all happen in one location? And she said, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. So she went in, and she did a great job, but it's still, there were still some other locations in there. It still wasn't exactly what I was hoping for. So I said to her, I'm like, you know, do you mind if I go in and take a stab at it? Because I think I know what I want. And she said, she said, yeah, yeah, absolutely no problem, please. And I think this is the first time I started thinking like a director, and I didn't even know it yet, because I was still just producing at the time, but I went in and something I chance I channeled something. I don't know what came over me, but I just really started resonating with the story. And I went in and I made the whole thing happen inside the house. And once I started sending that script out to people for feedback, it was just overwhelming. People were like, oh my god, oh my god. And I'm like, You know what, guys, we're onto something here. This isn't this little no budget, two day weekend script with a bunch of volunteers. This is like a really powerful film now, and it kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, maybe too big, honestly, in hindsight, but it just took on this massive life of its own. And then we started thinking, Well, what actors can we get in this? We started sending the script out to some agents, and some big agents, actually, and the response was unbelievable. There was all these actors that were dying to do it for free, and they wanted to be a part of it. And there was even an agent at the Abrams agency that told me it was the most powerful short script she'd ever read. And so we just started going, oh my god, we're really onto something here. And we changed the title of the script to shattered love. So this is the story of how shattered love got started. So we we realized pretty quickly that we needed some money to keep this going, to make this happen. So I took everything I had learned, because the other thing I learned from zombie elves is I did not factor in the ship, the shipping and handling and postage for all those perks. I sent out each one of those envelopes that had a calendar and a T shirt in it cost $3.50 to ship, and that was in addition to the envelopes, the labels, the time, the cost of putting it all together, the cost of manufacturing the shirts, getting the calendars printed. I mean, it took the whole $4,000 that I raised just to get all those perks of build. So when I did the next campaign, that was my the lesson I learned with that is no more physical perks. From now on, I'm only going to give like digital perks and things that don't have to be manufactured or shipped. That was a really, that was the second big lesson. The first is, have a fan base first. And the second is limit the stuff you're actually manufacturing and shipping out, because the cost of that will be 30% of what you're trying to raise. So what I did is, I'm like, Well, what do we have? Asset wise? I'm like, we have a really powerful script. So I created an Indiegogo campaign for two weeks, and I didn't have a director, I didn't have any attack actors attached yet. All I did was scan those script pages and post them as images on the Indiegogo wall. And I because I didn't want people to have to click on a link, I wanted to just be able to read the script as soon as they landed on the campaign page. And in two weeks, I had raised over $5,000 just based on the strength of the script. And the script, by the way, was only seven pages. So that was our first funding campaign. Then we got some actors attached. We got a director attached. We ran a second two week campaign and raised another $5,000 and then, but from that, from that point on, everything started growing. We wanted the best DP, we wanted the best location. We wanted insurance. We wanted to be able to pay people. We wanted all this kind of stuff. Next thing we know, we have a $60,000 budget. And I think in hindsight, honestly, it just got too big for its own britches. It just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And honestly, I think the film itself probably would have been better off in the long run if we had just done it really small and simple with unknown actors right from the start, it certainly would have saved us from the calamity that that happened shortly afterwards. Um, but anyway, so we had, we had, we had cast some name actors that we ended up not really being, not not really resonating with through the course of the rehearsal process and some other processes that we went down, we decided that we kind of weren't happy with the direction that the film was going in. I wasn't happy with the director I gone. I had gone through three directors at this point, and all of them had disappointed me. Had tried to change the script. The one thing we knew was solid was that damn script, and they kept trying to change it, and that was a huge sticking point with me. So we just kind of stopped the whole process. Let all the directors go, let all the actors go. I'm like, This isn't working. Well, we kept one of the actors. We kept the female lead actor, because she was we always really liked her a lot. So we shut everything down. We regrouped, and my team kept telling me they're like, Don you're not happy with these directors for a reason. We think you need to direct it. And I'm like, No, I gave up directing a long time ago. I didn't do so well my first time out, I realized I was a better producer than I am a director. It's like, I don't know if I want to go down that road again, but they're like, no, no. You have a vision for this. You have to do it. So I stepped up as director. We hired some unknown actors, cast some unknown actors. We raised about by this time, including the money we had already raised, plus the new batch of money to shoot on. We had raised about $50,000 so we rented a stage, we got our actors involved, we set everything up. I was so excited. I told everybody, I'm like guys, I'm an inexperienced director. I need a lot of support around me. I'm telling you right now I don't really know what I'm doing. You guys have to help me through this process. Well, unfortunately, I made some unfortunate decisions with the people that I hired, and the film shut down a day and a half after shooting. It was a three day shoot. It shut down at lunch on day two. The biggest problem being the art department really screwed up, and they could never get they started late day one, they never got caught up, and literally, by day two, we had no rooms that were dressed and ready to shoot in, and I didn't have enough experience as a director to deal with that and to figure out how to make that work. So it was really an unfortunate situation. I found out afterwards that the art department had been on two different shows at the same time, and the six days of prep that we had agreed to got done in the 24 hours prior to my shoot. They tried to cram six days of prep into literally 24 hours around the clock before our seven o'clock AM call time. And you can imagine the art department band didn't even show up to the set. So it was just, I don't know, it's like a comedy of errors. It was like, Oh my God. I'm like, How are all these tragic, horrible things happening to this beautiful script? I was like, How is this possible? And. And about 16,000 of that money had been crowdfunded. It was people who donated, and so I was heartbroken. I didn't know what to do because and 10s of 1000s of that was money that I borrowed, that I put in, that I had to pay back personally. So it was heartbreaking. It was absolutely the most devastating thing that's ever happened to me, and I blamed everybody else at first, because I was angry and I was upset at the financial loss and the fact that my film had gone through that. And I went to a deep, dark place for about three months, I crawled, I curled up into a ball, and I went to a really dark place, and I finally started accepting my responsibility as the director. Because the thing is, the thing about directing that people don't understand. It's one, it's a very vulnerable position. And two, you're responsible for everything that goes up on the screen, whether it was your fault or not. Other people can make mistakes and not do their jobs, but it's still your fault. Now the good news is, is that if it does go well, you also get most of the glory. So it's kind of good news, bad news. But on that particular film, I think people particularly pointed the finger at me, and that was really tough. And I thought about leaving the business. I had convinced myself that I wasn't right for this industry, and I was about to pick up everything I owned and moved to LA and move out of LA and just go do something else for a living. And that lasted about 36 hours. And then something clicked in me, something kicked out. And I don't know, the warrior in me stood up. I picked myself up, I dust myself off, and I've said, and I said, You know what? I'm not going down that way. This is what I want to do. It's what I've always wanted to do. There's nothing else I want to do, and I've got to figure out how to make this work. And so I went on this tear. I went on this mission to direct as many films as I could possibly get my hands on, so that I would have enough experience to be able to handle something like that better in the future, because mistakes always happen. Things always go wrong on a film set, and I just, clearly, I just wasn't, simply wasn't ready to handle it. I wasn't prepared, didn't have the experience so and I felt, you know, I felt an obligation to all the donors who had donated to that film. I mean, I could have just shut it down and not moved on and said, Okay, guys, you know, it's too bad this mistake happened. We had some people that screwed up. I screwed up. Are bad my mistake. You know that we're going to accept that loss and move on. But that's not who I am, and that's not what I'm made of. I'm like, I'm going to get this movie made if it kills me, literally, I said that, and I still to this day, mean it. I meant it when I said that.

Dave Bullis 47:48
So when you actually got with the art department, you actually found that out, did they actually admit it right away?

Dawn Fields 47:53
Oh yeah, oh okay, oh yeah, oh yeah. I had no idea, actually. And I kind of wish he hadn't told me, because when he told me, I went ballistic. I was, Oh, my God. I've never been so angry and so upset in my life. This one he, you know, he admitted it,

Dave Bullis 48:11
Wow. I mean, that is, you know, you know, one of the pretty bad story. Because, you know, some of the people have been on to it. They've had, you know, share their their war stories as well. And you know, it is all about, you know, putting together that team. And sometimes you do hire people who just, they project themselves as one way, and then you find out they're, they're either lying, or they just, you know, or just maybe a sociopath.

Dawn Fields 48:42
Well, here's what I've come to realize with a little bit of hindsight, this is a tough business, and the economy is really bad, and they really all they're guilty of. And I hate to sound like I'm condoning it or even forgiving it. I guess I have forgiven it at this point, but in this industry, it's called double dipping. And what he had done was the show he was working on prior to that ran long. And I think he truly, honestly, I think he was coming from a good place. I think he had to. He wanted to be loyal to them and finish out that job, but he also wanted to be loyal to me and not quit or leave me hanging. But, and I honestly think he thought he could do it in 24 hours. But to some extent, that was disrespectful to me and my project, to think that you could cram six days of prep. You know, we decided and agreed on six days of prep for a reason. It was a big show. It was a huge art department show. We were working on a set, and everything had to be built and set dressed from scratch. It was a huge job, and he had four people on his team to make that happen on the day, but he it just, I don't know it's I'm trying to try to understand the situation. In hindsight, he really should have just told me his job got extended, then I should hire somebody else. In hindsight, that's what it should have happened. But, you know, he was trying to satisfy me, trying to satisfy the other, the other production he was working on, and unfortunately for him, it just it didn't work out. Now, with was he the only reason the show was troubled? Absolutely not. There were other problems. There were other issues the but the show didn't shut down because of that. Look, I wasn't doing a very good job as director because I was rattled by the whole art department thing. We had to, we had a very specific shooting schedule that we had to do so the art department could keep up, because it was very ambitious. And when all when art department arrived on the set that morning with with no van, it screwed up the whole schedule, and that threw me off my game, and I was just flustered and rattled the whole time. So would the film have probably turned out poorly and had to have been re shot anyway. Probably, I can honestly say it probably would have, but at least we would have finished it, and maybe something would have been salvageable. But the way it went down, it it shut down because there was, there were no rooms available to shoot.

Dave Bullis 51:17
So, so you know, when you went on to your next project, did you ever use even any of the same crew, or was it a completely new cast and crew?

Dawn Fields 51:26
Um, well, no, it was a completely different I mean, I have my core people I hate, you know, James and Debbie Rankin, they, they've stayed with me as part of my, my core team, but no, not and there's a couple of crew people that I enjoyed working with. It wasn't their fault that I have worked with since, but no, for the most part. 209, was our next film after that, and that was a whole different cast and crew.

Dave Bullis 51:52
You touched on something too with the experienced director. You know, I actually think it's good that you said that, because I think it's, you know, there was somebody once told me, when I first started that, you know, the director is the only person on set who doesn't need to have any experience. And they said, No, the cinematographers got to know how to do all his, his or her work, the actors, everybody else. But really, the director doesn't have to have a certain X amount of experience. And, you know, I think that's good in a way, because when you actually mentioned that, like, I need support, I think it really, at least you upfront and honest with the crew, and that way, at least you're on the same page there. So, you know, they're not too many expectations.

Dawn Fields 52:36
Well, it's, it's not so much that I was afraid of expectations. It's just, I literally needed the help. It's like, you know, it's like, honestly, it's like, I, you know, I've never, I haven't done this in 20 years. And, you know, I know the importance of a good dp and I know the importance of a good production designer. Those are the two people that you lean on the most. And unfortunately, in this situation, you know, those things didn't work out so well. You know, it's unfortunate, and I went to a really bad place, and I almost didn't recover from it, quite honestly, but it's interesting how something deep inside once i It's funny once I made my peace with it. And, you know, I debated and debated, once I made my peace with it and decided I was going to leave LA and where am I? What city am I going to move to, and what job am I going to do now, once I made my peace with it and kind of decided that's what I was going to do, that's when that little thing, that little warrior deep inside me, finally was allowed to come back up and say, Oh no, you're not going down like that. But it wasn't till I made my peace with it that my true desires and my true nature kicked in. And I wonder if some people don't wait long enough, or if that doesn't happen for them soon enough, and then they end up giving up on something and moving on to something that they're not happy with. It makes me wonder, but it took me about 36 hours before that little warrior stood up and said, That's not going to be your that's not gonna be your history. That's not gonna be your your bio,

Dave Bullis 54:00
Yeah, you made a good point there. I was just in a seminar yesterday with Corey Mandel. He was just on the podcast too, and he actually mentioned about this where, if you have, like, a minds theater, and he said, You know, there's all sorts of people in the audience. And he said the people in the front row are the ones who are really controlling the show. And he said, you know, if you have too much negativity, and he goes through this whole thing, and he's eating this book, but he says, go too much negativity. And those people always in the front row. That's where you start getting all these doubts, and that's where you start getting all these you know, you can't do this, you can't do that, and and basically, you know, and part of it is, you know, you know, not only just our self doubts and self sabotage, but it's just, you know, almost like our body's natural way to react sometimes is almost like a fear a fear response, yeah, so, you know. And he says, you know, these things all tie in together, and which is why, you know, sometimes we're writing, you're saying, Oh, this sucks. And we just some. Some people never come back. I mean, I've known screenwriters who they started writing a script, and they started before me. And I, you know, run into them nowadays, and it's just they I'm not in it anymore. I'm, you know, doing whatever now, as you know, I always find that kind of interesting,

Dawn Fields 55:17
Yeah, you know. And I, like I said, it makes me question, Do people wait long enough sometimes for that warrior to kick in or they just give up? I don't know. Maybe some people don't have it, I don't know.

Dave Bullis 55:28
So, you know, so after, you know, shattered love and you finally were to pull yourself together. You know, what project did you work on after that?

Dawn Fields 55:37
Well, I was determined at that point to prove that the film didn't shut down because of me, would it have been poorly directed, probably because I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't have the right support around me, but I really wanted to prove that I have 20 years of experience in this business. I've worked on big budget movie sets. I know my shit. I was trained by some of the best ad's in this country. I know how movies work, and I know how a film set works, and I know how to get a movie made. So I just, I just became hell bent on proving to people that that I was capable, and I was, I was able to do this. So I was inspired by a workshop that I took one day to write a script called 209 and 209 was a very simple story, two guys in a hotel room, and my theory was, what's the worst thing that could happen between two dudes in a hotel room who have come together for some very dramatic reason? And I came up with this story about a childhood friend who had, 10 years prior, accidentally murdered his best friend's little sister, and he's come back 10 years later to confess. And so we cast our actors, we raised about $7,900 on Indiegogo for that one, and that one reached. That one exceeded its goal. We made our goal on that one, and we had a set built, and we were all ready to go, and we shot it. And you know, there were some issues still. I was still trying to figure out how to work properly with the DP, how to communicate, how to get my vision across, how to command and control a crew. And by the way, I do not agree with the statement that a director has to be the least experienced person on the set. That has not been my experience whatsoever. Mine has been the opposite. My experience has been the director absolutely has to know every single thing that needs to happen, and they need to know how to tell the crew to do it, and how to express their vision and how to communicate that vision so that everyone can execute it. That's been my experience, and I still hadn't really gotten very good at that. So there were some struggles on 209 it didn't really turn out the way I wanted. The story, I think, was still smaller and more contained than I had hoped, and it just, it just wasn't the P it wasn't the redemption piece that I wanted it to be. And I was very much seeking redemption at this point. I was hell bent on redemption. At this point, it meant everything to me. I was determined to build up a good director's reel to prove myself. So James and I had many, many conversations about, do we? Do we attempt it again? What do we do? Do we just let it go and move on? And at the end of the day, we both agreed that the kernel of the 209, story was good enough where if we embellished it more and really took that little seed of an idea and really fleshed it out, it could be like this, really moving, impactful film. And so we made the decision, even as tough as it was to rewrite, to not rewrite, but to embellish the script, make it longer, build more character arc, more character background, more character history. Really tell that whole complete story, not just a moment in time, but build this whole story and raise the money again and shoot it properly. So that's what we did. And 209, became found, and I'm extremely proud of found. We just submitted it a couple months ago to the 2015 Idlewild International Festival of cinema. It was the first and only festival that we had submitted to at the time. It was my first time in competition as a director, and I'm thrilled to say that we won Best Short Film, best a Best Director Award, and we were nominated for Best Cinematography and best score. Oh, wow, congratulations. Thank you, and it changed everything I mean, that redemption that I was looking for and that success that I was hoping would launch me and kind of make me relevant and make people take notice that film did that, and that was exactly what I wanted it to do. I wanted a I wanted a film to do that, and if it wasn't going to be that film, I'd have to just put all my efforts into the next film and make that film the film that did that. But fortunately for us, the very next film that we launched after shattered love shutdown ended up, even though we went through a lot of trials and tribulations and quite a bit of expense with it, ended up being a huge. Huge, phenomenal success, and Yeah, it's just it's blown me away. It's exceeded all my expectations, and it's finally giving me a little bit of sense of confidence that I can do this, even though I know I still have so much to learn.

Dave Bullis 1:00:27
So, when did you actually make fragile storm with Lance Hendrickson?

Dawn Fields 1:00:33
Okay, so, um, what had happened was, when so, so we had done because, because here's there was a time where I'm like, oh my god, this is like crazy. You know, shattered love didn't work out. And then 209 wasn't the film I wanted it to be. It's like, Oh my God. It's like, do I really even need to be doing this kind of work? But what I realize now is I'm a fighter, and I'm a survivor, and I will do whatever it takes to make my films the absolute best movies that they can be. It's not about me. Maybe it's a little ego driven. I think everything this business is, but I really I'm hell bent with every project I work on to make it the best film it could possibly be. And we never intended on not shooting shattered love. Re shooting shattered love. We I just needed to put some time and distance between me and that project. You know, I needed to clear out all the negativity. I needed to build up my skills. So basically, what I did is I spent the next year and a half after shattered love shut down. I spent the next year and a half directing as many films as I could to get ready to reshoot shattered love. It was all about. Everything I did, every step of the way, was 100% designed to put me in a position where by the time we were ready to reshoot that film, I was ready, and I was going to make it a good film. And I was fortunate enough during the whole time that we were doing 209 and found during that whole time several other opportunities had come up. There were some volunteer groups, like the all women cine ladies group. I got the chance to direct a film for them, and that was bonds and lace that mentioned before. That was done for no money, all volunteer group. That was a script I wrote and directed, co wrote with Lucy de lot, that film. You know, it was okay. It turned out okay. We did it all in a day. It was a hugely ambitious, ambitious project, all in one day with with no money. But I'm still very, very proud of it. And then there's another group of all independent filmmakers that I actually organized and created, called the Los Angeles Film collective. And I did one short through that group called better with friends. That was another one that was done for no money, all volunteer. So I got the opportunity along the way to do some other projects. And then there was a specific lull where nothing was going on, where James and I are like, Oh, we just want, I just want to direct again. I want to shoot something. And so we wrote and created touch, and touch was literally conceived and shot in like three weeks time. And while I still felt like I made some mistakes on that one, I wasn't quite where I wanted to be directorially, the film still turned out extremely well. I'm very proud of it. It got huge response online. That film actually had its world premiere at dances with films this past year, and that was a huge success. So very proud of that one. So, you know, I was just, my problem is I love directing. So now that I've started doing it, and now that I've had got a little bit of confidence in myself, I just love directing, and I want to move on to the next one. Before I even finished the first one, it's like, what's next? What's next? I want to direct something else. Get me on set. Get me on set. So that's caused a little bit of a problem, actually, in that we shot way too many films back to back, and then they got bottle necked in post, and we're actually still dealing with that a little bit now, but getting found out the door was a huge accomplishment, and that was, I guess, a huge catalyst to moving forward with everything else. But to answer your question, there were all these other projects, including a short film that I really wanted to do, but I felt like shattered love was still still had to get done, and it was still there. And I realized that part of the problem was there were some casting decisions that we made when we used those unknown actors that when I looked at the dailies of the stuff that we did shoot before we shut down, I just it just wasn't working for me. There was some physical resemblances that were supposed to happen for one of the characters that wasn't really quite there. We were trying to work around it with some makeup and effects and stuff like that, but contact lenses, things like that, trying to pull some tricks, but it just, it just wasn't really working for me, and I was having a hard time imagining raising another $50,000 for this project, relaunching this whole thing after the massive loss that we took on the first one for actors, I wasn't absolutely thrilled about and I realized that that was holding me back, and it was paralyzing me, and it was keeping me from moving forward with the project. So again, James and I have much debate. We had many, many discussions about. I had become friends with these people. I was loyal to them. I love them to death. But it just came down to I had to do what I had to do that was best for the film. So I made the calls. I pick up the phone, and I told the actors much to their heartbreak. Unfortunately, this was so tough to make this call that we were going to recast them. And I at this point, I'm feeling like such a loser. I'm like, Oh my God, I've had to recast all these actors. One of the films shut down. I fired three directors. Like, oh my god, this is such a mess, but it's amazing, because once I hung up the phone from those phone calls, that little warrior jumped back up again. And I made those calls the end of August, and by the end of September we were shooting, that's how fast it happened. Because once I was unburdened from the things that were really kind of holding me back, I was like a locomotive, and everything just went on hyper speed. And so while I initially wanted to use unknown actors for this film, I started thinking at this point. It's like, you know, what, we've invested so much money in this film at this point. It's like, we need an actor. We need a name at this point to just really, you know, give the film some credibility, to kind of raise the bar. It's like, you know, it just felt like the right thing to do. And as we were researching actors in that age range, Lance Hendrickson came across our radar, and as soon as I looked him up, I mean, I knew who he was, of course, but I hadn't like, as soon as I looked him up, like what he looks like. Now, I was like, That's it. That's the character. That's Norman. And I'm like, There's, and we were still talking about some other names, but I'm like, no, nobody else makes sense. Nobody on this planet makes sense but Lance Henriksen. He's our guy. He's the one, and he's and I literally told my people, if we don't get Lance, we're not doing the film. And so we picked up the phone and we called his manager, and she loved the script, and it was a tough negotiation, because, you know, these guys don't work for free, and they very rarely do short films. So it was a tough negotiation, and we ended up not being able to negotiate. I tried and tried and tried, but, you know, basically at the bottom, at the end of the day, you have to give them what they asked for. And we did. And you know, the other thing that we had to do as a pay or play, which is very typical, and that was very stressful on me, but in a way, that's what helped it happen so fast, is because once we have to lock into a shoot date, you know, paying his fee and being locked into a shoot date, that'll motivate you. I'm telling you right now, if you're having trouble getting the film made, just lock yourself into a pay or play date with the big actor, and you'll get your film made. And that's what happened. So you know, 30 days later, we were on set and we were shooting, and Lance Henriksen is so amazing. It was my first time working with the name actor, and he was, he's so passionate, he's so dedicated, he's so talented, and also just a beautiful spirit and a beautiful person. And everybody on set just fell in love with him. And the girls were all like, these, you know, crushes on him. And they were like, you know, it was just like, it was, it was wonderful. And the chemistry between him and our actors with other other actors was was amazing. And unfortunately, because of the rate we had to pay, we could only have him for two days, and the film was never scheduled for less than three and we we even wanted four at one point to shoot it, so I unfortunately had to go back and shave back the script a little bit, make it a little bit more lean, and so that we could, so that the scenes we did shoot in two days weren't really compromised. But I have to, I'll be the first to admit, you know, we were, we were pushing it to shoot this film in two days. So, you know, there, I think there's a few things that got sacrificed along the way, story wise. But I think to have Lance Hendrickson in our film, and to still have the film tell the story, the amazing story that we were trying to tell, it was completely worth it. And so that film got shot at the end of September, and we're currently in post production,

Dave Bullis 1:09:16
Awesome. And you know, excuse me, you know, it's great that you were able to get Lance Hendrickson. I've heard nothing but amazing things about him from people who've worked with him.

Dawn Fields 1:09:24
He's unbelievable. He really is an amazing person. And we were totally blessed that he agreed to do our script. He we really feel very fortunate.

Dave Bullis 1:09:35
So, you know, just, you know, and again, you know, congratulations on everything with found. And I'm glad you know you're able to get, you know, your redemption, and you're able to, you know, actually prove to yourself you can do this. And you know you forget those negative voices that we all face sometimes. So you know, recently, you've started your own fund, your own short film seminar. And this is what I want to talk to you about with terms of crowdfunding. You know, I saw you actually, you know, did a live event of this, so meeting in person. So if you could, could you just give us, like, a brief synopsis of we know what you go over and things of that nature?

Dawn Fields 1:10:24
Well, yeah, teaching has always been something that's been a goal of mine, because I really, truly enjoy, enjoy it, and I find it extremely rewarding. And ever since I've moved to LA, as you've heard from my history, I haven't really gotten the credentials, you know, to teach and to justify charging people for seminar, you have to have a certain amount of credentials, and that's what I was working towards and trying to build up these this past decade. And it was just a real struggle, finally, with found being made and winning awards and doing as well as it did, plus the fact that I've crowdfunded now eight short film projects, actually eight, actually, eight, eight of them, we crowdfunded. I feel like I have some knowledge now and some credentials to speak knowledgeably about that particular subject. So I'm very clear about I'm only teaching raising money for short films because I have not raised money for a feature. And I think that is different if you're trying to raise more than, like 50, $60,000 $60,000 and I've never used any other platform other than Indiegogo. So in my classes, I'm very specific, and in my marketing, I'm very specific, to tell people this is a specific class on how to raise money for a short film on Indiegogo. And the amounts of money that I feel like I can specialize in helping people raise is between 5010 $1,000 that's a real sweet spot with me. I feel like I could raise that much money for film like every time where I've gotten into trouble. And I'm also very honest about this in my seminars where I've gotten into trouble, personally, is trying to raise money in the amounts of 30,000 or more. I raised up to 25,000 but not in one single campaign. That's where I have a sore spot, and I think part of this because it's for a short although there have been several people who have raised more than $50,000 for their shorts, and I can speak to that, and I can tell them what I think they need to do in order to make that happen, but it's a different process, because there's raising money inside your circle, and then there's raising money outside your circle. And to hit those high numbers of 2030, 40,000 or more, you have to go outside your circle. You have to get communities and organizations, and you have to get press and publicity and marketing, and that's like a whole nother animal. But I can't, but I can speak to that. I do understand that. I've just never actually done that. In the two campaigns that we did try to run that were 30,000 or more, there were various reasons those campaigns didn't succeed. But what I like to do in the seminar is I use those as an example, as examples to show what does not work because I because it didn't work for us, and I know exactly why it didn't work. So I think sometimes you can learn from people of what to do, but I think you can also learn from what not to do, like I could tell people all day long with my experience with shattered love, I'll tell you what not to do.

Dave Bullis 1:13:08
You know, so Dawn now that you, you know, you've had some of these live seminars, are you playing on, you know, having any online seminars for people who couldn't make it out to LA,

Dawn Fields 1:13:19
Yeah, it's really funny. When I posted the first live one on Facebook, I was like, Oh, yeah. Hopefully all these people in my area will come but what happened was everybody started sending me emails and messages going, I don't live in LA, but I really want to take this class. And so I'm like, maybe I need to do an online version. And everybody was like, yeah, yeah, do an online version. So I'm like, Okay, well that might actually even be more popular, because a lot of my followers aren't in LA so I've been working real hard on an online version, and I'm actually launching tonight, as a matter of fact, my very first webinar. It's secrets to funding your short film on Indiegogo, and it's going to be tonight from 630 to 830 Pacific Standard Time. So that's Los Angeles time, 630 to 830 live, live webinar that you can sign up for and interact and ask questions and all that are kind of stuff. And I will be that's posted on my wall and on my on my website.

Dave Bullis 1:14:18
Okay, excellent. And, you know, I'll make sure to link that in show notes as well.

Dawn Fields 1:14:22
Yeah, that would be lafilmseminars.com. You can register there. Or palmstreetfilms.com. You can register there as well. Awesome, cool. Yeah, go ahead.

Dave Bullis 1:14:32
I was, I'll make sure link those in the show notes, by the way. Oh, that'd be great. And, you know, speaking of, you know, you know, palm films, by the way, you know, is there, you know, just to get to your short script competition, I know you This is, you've held this for a couple of different, excuse me, held this for a couple of years. You know, is, is there an impetus to, you know, why you started this? I mean, I know you kind of touched on that earlier. But is there, you know, have you really, sort of, I. Evolve this meaning, like, Is there, like, you know, any other reasons why you may have to these competitions?

Dawn Fields 1:15:06
Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's a very specific history with these. The first script, the first script contest we're calling, the one with that callerly One with fragment and shattered love, where I just put out a call on my Facebook, that's we're calling that our first palm street films contest later that year, we got access to a series of standing sets in Orange County, where it's a stage, where they filled a couple of standing sets. A standing set is like a pre built living room or hospital room, or it's a set. Everybody knows what a film set is. It's like. It's pre built sets that all exist in one space, and it's a series of them, like all spread out throughout the space. And we were, we were given access to use one of the standing set space where they had a house, the house where we actually shot shattered love. Actually, it's the same stage. The they had a house, they had a jail cell, they had an executive boardroom at the time, they had a hospital set, and they had an even an airplane thing. It's called Silver dream factory in Orange County. If you haven't heard about it, it's fantastic. It is within the 60 mile zone, 30 mile zone. Sorry, asked for Roland kanemar. He's good friend of mine. He's treated us very well every time we've shot there. But we had access to the stage and we wanted to shoot something last minute, so I put another call out to my Facebook, you know, no submission fee, nothing like that, just because of an informal call for scripts. And we told people we need, like, a five page script, something we can shoot in one day that's set in one of these locations. And we listed all locations. And John Whetstone was one of my Facebook followers who sat down and actually found this really brilliant way to utilize two of the sets, and that was the interrogation. And so shattered love was the first script contest, and that film got made, eventually into a film starring Lance Henriksen. And then the second contest was the interrogation, which ended up getting made. And actually, in my seminars, both live and online, I show the interrogation even though we never actually released it publicly online, that one's still because, because virgin produced is still considering showing that on their airlines, so we haven't, and that's a deal that we got through dances with films, because the interrogation had premiered at Santa Barbara internet International Film Festival. That was its world premiere, and then it had its la premiere at dances with films. And through dances with films is how we made the connection with Virgin produced. So we're still waiting to hear about that, so we haven't released that officially, but I do show that film in my seminars, which is really great. People love seeing that. I also, in my seminars, I show the original zombie elves campaign video, which a lot of people thought was like at the time, it was like, people thought it was like, Oh, that's a great hook. That's a really cute video. There's been a whole lot of really great videos since then that have kind of eclipsed that. People do some really great and wonderful and creative things with their campaign videos these days, but we still thought it was kind of a fun little thing. So I show that in the seminar. But and then last year, we were starting to think about our first feature film and what we were going to do. So last year was the first time we decided to launch an official script contest where there was a submission fee and a cash prize, a significant cash prize. So we launched a contest, charged a submission fee. We got just under 100 submissions total. So the good news about this festival is you're not competing with 1000s of other scripts. So I really encourage anybody listening to this, if you have a short film and and we open it up to both this year we did short films and feature film scripts. So I really encourage you. We're about to launch the fourth annual palm street films contest. You guys should really enter your scripts, because you're not going against 1000s of other scripts. You may not even be going against hundreds of other scripts, because we're a very small, intimate kind of in, you know, contest, but the prize is $500 for winning short and $1,000 for winning feature. So that's that's pretty groovy, also, and this is announcement I just made last last week, we've decided the winning short film script from last year was a really wonderful script called five days in Calcutta, which was written by Fred Perry. That script not only won our contest, but I didn't realize this till after we had awarded it has also won, like a dozen other short film script contests. That's how good it is. It won Houston comedy fest, and it also won DC shorts. And we love that script, and we love Fred, and so we've decided that we're going to produce that one, and I'm directing. So every single script contest that we've had, the films have gotten made. Oh, wow, that's amazing. That is huge. That's to some people, that's more important than a cash prize. But this year, as in last year, we're offering a cash prize and the chance for your film to get produced. But this year, I'm specifically looking. For features, because I'm looking, I'm looking to direct my first feature.

Dave Bullis 1:20:13
So basically, it kind of ties with my next question, which is, you know, what is your next project that you have?

Dawn Fields 1:20:21
Uh, well, um, I'm in post production on fragile storm right now, and one other short film that we did earlier this year. This a small, smaller film. We're trying to get those two things wrapped down in post, and then we're going to shoot, once that's done, we're going to shoot five days in Calcutta, and we hope to do that in the summer. It depends on how long it takes to actually get fragile storm finished. There's a lot that still needs to be done on that, and we want to focus on that exclusively before we move on to anything else. But five days in Calcutta is up next. And then, like I said, after that, I'm looking to jump into my first feature, and then after that, I want to do zombie else. So that's kind of the, I guess, two, two year plan.

Dave Bullis 1:20:59
And you know, I really wish you the best with zombie elves and everything else too. I think, I think, honestly, Dylan, I think zombie elves, when you come and revisit that, you're going to have a whole new, no pun intended, but a whole new life to it.

Dawn Fields 1:21:12
Yeah. Well, because I look at, you know, since I started directing two years ago, I look at everything differently. I look colors seem different. People seem different. I see movies differently. I have literally a whole new perspective, not on not only on life, but or not only in the film business, I guess, but also on life. But I see movies differently now. I see them in my head, and I form visions more quickly, and I and it comes everything comes to me more quickly, and I'm super excited about all the visual possibilities of zombie elves,

Dave Bullis 1:21:46
Yeah. And also, also I meant to was, you know, just the market is changing too, and, you know, I just think there's gonna be even more opportunities in me. Because, you know, when you first started that, I don't think Amazon Studios was around. They weren't looking for new stuff. But now, if you look at it, everyone's looking for new material. I mean, I mean I, as I was talking to, you know, Richard bato from 632 he has, you know, he never gone back and forth, which is all of the new content streams out there that are just looking for that that need content. So honestly, I think you will have, you know, more of an opportunity with zombie else?

Dawn Fields 1:22:23
Yeah, I think so too. I'm excited. And, um, you know, it's just that film has so much potential on so many levels, but it's also an awesome responsibility, because you, you know, you have to be loyal and true to Christmas. You have to be loyal and true to zombie fans. It's, it's quite, you know, it's, it's a bit daunting, to be honest with you, but I am excited for the challenge. We were even we for a time, we were even thinking about doing it in 3d but I'm not sure if that makes sense these days, it doesn't seem like 3d is taken off the way people had hoped it would.

Dave Bullis 1:22:52
Yeah, it just seems to be in certain movies that 3d is accepted, obviously, anything that James Cameron does, and a few things here and there, but yeah, 3d i don't think even the 3d TVs that they released, I haven't seen much for them.

Dawn Fields 1:23:07
Oh gosh, I got a 3d TV for Christmas three years ago, and I watched maybe five movies on it, and now it's collecting dust. It's like, you know, and it's a great experience. I love stuff in 3d I'm a total fan, but it's just, you know, putting on the glasses and charging them up, you know, I have one of those systems, and it just, you know, it just, I don't know, it's just not the experience that that I think people were hoping for and and finding content in that you could buy for your home system was a huge challenge at the time. You know, like three years ago, when I got it, you couldn't buy anything for less than 50 bucks. That's true. It was. And there was very little content available in the stores. And that became really frustrating.

Dave Bullis 1:23:51
Yeah, and a lot of the stores, too, are even getting rid of their blu rays. I mean, it's just, you know, if you're like a Best Buy, they sort of consolidated. They've bumped out all the DVDs. And now, you know that's that whole entire area is getting smaller and smaller, basically, right? Yeah, no, go ahead. I was gonna say basically, they want you to go online, or they assume you're gonna buy a digital copy. But I'm sorry, what were we gonna say?

Dawn Fields 1:24:12
No, I just remember a couple years ago, I bought a Blu ray burner, and I went out to like, Office Max and Best Buy and all these places I couldn't even find, like, blank blu rays. Yeah, it was like, what's happening to the blu ray market and why? Yeah, you had to special order online. You can't even just walk into a store and buy blank blu rays. Like, really?

Dave Bullis 1:24:31
Yeah, it's, I mean, it really depends too. I've noticed on like, the area and whatever they seem to stock. But I even had trouble getting black blue rays before I actually had to order them from online from somewhere. I think maybe the Amazon I ordered them from.

Dawn Fields 1:24:46
Wow, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:24:49
So you know, don't we've been talking probably close to two hours now.

Dawn Fields 1:24:53
I told you, I'm a talker,

Dave Bullis 1:24:54
So what I might have doing is I might end up splitting this into. Not sure yet. I'm gonna, when I push this together off I can, you know, have a better picture of everything. But just, you know, in closing, is there anything you want to discuss that we haven't touched on?

Dawn Fields 1:25:08
There's 1000 things I could talk about. I have so many stories. I have so many thoughts on this business, so much in my head I want to share with people. I, you know, I could go on for days, but, you know, just to, just to give people some ideas about the script contest, I believe we're gonna launch that sometime this month, sometime in March. And if you follow me on Facebook, it's facebook.com, forward slash, Don fields, producer. I tagged that name when I was producing. I wish I could change it to Director, but if you just follow me on that, you'll see all the announcements. Also, if you go to palm street films.com and join our mailing list, there's a subscribe button there where you can join our mailing list, you'll also be notified. But we're hoping to launch that in March, and we're super excited. And I'm hoping that my next feature film, or my first feature film, is in that group of submissions.

Dave Bullis 1:26:04
Awesome. So again, everyone, I will link to Dawn's all of Dawn's websites that she's discussed in the show notes. So again, if you're a screenwriter and you want to, you know, have an opportunity to, you know, have something produced, check out Dawn's new opportunities. I mean, the contest sounds amazing. And, you know, like I was just saying Dawn, about all the different, you know, conscious content streams. I mean, this is another opportunity for people now, and it's just, it's amazing with everything else. I mean, everything's coming up to all at once. You know, you got the Nicole fellowship coming up, and you got, I mean, strip the blues, I think, is coming up. I mean, there's just so many, you know, but yeah, everyone. You can find me at Dave, boss, calm. Twitter, it's at Dave, underscore bullets. And Facebook, it's at Dave, dot bulls, but again, in the show notes, you can just click on that and friend request me and stalk me. So Dawn, thank you very much for coming on.

Dawn Fields 1:26:55
Thank you, Dave. This was awesome. I really enjoyed it. You are you're an awesome host. Thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 1:26:59
Oh, thank you very much. Hey, I'm gonna come back on. Let me know you me know.

Dawn Fields 1:27:03
You know, I feel like with all the trials and tribulations that I've been through, I always like to say from one of my favorite movies, Galaxy Quest, never give up, never surrender. Because this business is hard and it will tear you down if you let it, but if you want it badly enough, and if you work hard enough, you can accomplish any filmmaking dream that you want to accomplish, and you can be anything that you want to be. And it's funny now that people are telling me that I'm an inspiration, I always felt like, oh my god, I'm doing everything wrong, and I'm making all these mistakes and nothing's going right. But things never go right in this business. It's the nature of it, and whether you succeed or fail is going to be determined not by how many failures you have, but how many times you pick yourself up and make it right.

Dave Bullis 1:27:50
And then you know that that's a great piece of advice, Dawn.

Dawn Fields 1:27:55
And that's what I always try to do. I just try to keep pushing forward and try to do the right thing as often as I can and do the right thing for my films, and never give up.

Dave Bullis 1:28:06
And that's, that's amazing, you know, there, there have been other people in the podcast too, who have you know, mentioned that you know, it's it is something we have to just keep going and you know, once you you know, you've done a project, just try to move on to the next one you know. And the, you know, if some of the other stories that I've heard too, and yours included, I mean, even if some people can use these stories to avoid these pitfalls and sort of learn from everybody else's experience, I think, you know, they would be it would behoove them to actually, you know, make a game plan. Actually listen to these, these podcasts and stories like yours and something like, you know, Kelly Baker's and piece together, you know, how could I avoid the same, the same the same instances, the same scenarios playing out and, you know, and the steps they could do to prevent those,

Dawn Fields 1:28:50
Yeah, it's, it's a tough business. It'll tear you down. It really will. And I feel like, if I can, if I can direct, anybody can direct, because it does not come easy to me. Does not come naturally to me. I've had to learn it. I've had to practice it. I've had to hone my craft. And I still feel like I may be 25% there. I have not done my best work yet.

Dave Bullis 1:29:13
And, you know, and I wish you the best, because, I mean, you know that that's we're always looking to improve. We're always looking to evolve. So, you know again, Dawn I wish you the best with everything.

Dawn Fields 1:29:45
Thank you so much, Dave. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

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