Bulletproof Screenwriting, Author at Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 428: The Art of Film Marketing: How to Make Your Movie Impossible to Ignore with Danielle Raiz

July 17, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

A blank canvas. A single frame. The quiet hum before a film breathes life into a screen. But what happens after the final cut? How does a filmmaker’s vision transcend the void and reach the hearts and minds of an audience? Today, we unravel this mystery with Danielle Raiz, a passionate advocate for creatives, whose work at Wix has been dedicated to empowering filmmakers and video creators.

In this boundless digital age, content creation has become more than just an art—it is a language, a currency, a revolution. Danielle Raiz reminds us that the modern filmmaker is no longer a mere artist but an entrepreneur, an architect of their own cinematic empire. She shares how filmmakers can harness websites, digital marketing, and audience engagement to elevate their craft beyond the screen. “You have to engage with your viewers even before you start filming,” she emphasizes. “You build your own website, create a teaser, and start talking to your fans. You share behind the scenes, updates, and teasers to create a buzz before your film is even out.”

A film, like a tree in the forest, may not make a sound if no one is there to hear it. Gone are the days when a filmmaker could rely solely on festivals and distributors. The power has shifted. Now, with tools like Wix, a filmmaker can craft their own digital home—a place where their work is presented with intention, where it is not merely another flickering light in the vast, crowded universe of content. The key is in visibility. “Your site is really your business card,” Danielle Raiz explains. “When people talk to you, they’ll Google your name. If they find a professional, beautiful online presence, it reflects on how they see your work.”

It is no longer enough to create; one must cultivate. Cultivate an audience, a brand, a presence. Marketing is not a necessary evil; it is an extension of the story itself. The best marketing does not feel like marketing at all—it is storytelling, an invitation, an experience. Danielle Raiz speaks of how major brands have already embraced this, turning advertisements into compelling short films. The lesson for filmmakers? Market your work as you would craft a scene—thoughtfully, purposefully, beautifully.

Yet, beyond the artistry of marketing lies a fundamental truth: control. “For a long time, video creators had to play by the rules of streaming platforms,” she says. “Now, everyone is chasing after great content creators. You have the power. You control the way your work is displayed, monetized, and shared. And that is an exciting time to be a filmmaker.”

We live in a time where technology shifts at the speed of thought. Virtual reality, interactive storytelling, live engagement—these are no longer distant dreams but tools at our fingertips. The game is no longer about who gets a seat at the table; it is about those who build their own table. And in this unfolding cinematic future, those who understand both art and strategy will rise.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:44
So on this episode of the podcast, again, we're going to be talking about marketing short films being used as actual commercials and so much more. As we talk all about this wonderful, wonderful world of filmmaking and video, we also talk about a lot of really cool projects as well, with guest, Danielle Raiz.

Danielle Raiz 3:15
So I started my career in consumer media startup, so I've always been about creating tools for creatives and for for all sorts of creatives, from you know, better ways to show these photography online and video online, and musicians and stuff like that. That came two weeks because we saw that there's a huge user base of the video creators that it didn't have the perfect tools for their needs. And at Wix, we're all about empowering users. And you know, different users have different needs. So we came, we came to this project in order to help video creators grow their business, and knowing that for a video creator, their content is their business. So it's all about, you know, better showcase, better distribution options, stuff like that.

Dave Bullis 4:05
So, Danielle, when you're you know, obviously you see a ton of different things. What you know, with your position, you see a ton of different filmmakers. You see a ton of different videos. You know. What are you can you think of any off the top of your head right now that have just been like, Absolutely, like, astounding. And you're, you know, because you know, everything is digital. Now. We have so many tools at our disposal, it's almost overwhelming at times. But you know, you know. And sometimes you see projects and that just come out of left field, and they're just amazing. You know, have you run into any and you could think of the top of your head, you know, during your course of Wix

Danielle Raiz 4:40
Wix website, or in general, or just in general. So in general, I think that it's a really exciting time to be a video creator, because there are a lot of new ways now to create content which are really interesting. I see, for example, our users, you know, experimenting with 360 videos and VR and it's really. A whole new way to look at how you create content and how people engage with it. Also, if you look at the platforms that people are using, you know, Facebook, etc, so you get a lot of like live engagement. So it's really interesting to see, you know, how creators evolve, how they create content, in terms of how this landscape is changing over time. And so this is the one thing that I find really interesting. And I also think that there are a lot of tools in the last year, in the last couple of years, that are about giving Video Creators, you know, the power to control their careers. So up until now, you're kind of like you had a few video services, and you kind of had to play by their rules. And now that you have all the power, because everyone's chasing after all the great video creators out there, you can actually decide. You can actually control the way that you're displayed and the way that you're monetizing your content. And you have so many platforms to choose for from, which is amazing. So I think these are really exciting times.

Dave Bullis 6:05
Yeah, and you mentioned something that I usually talk about on this show, and that is, you have to sort of create your own, sort of what I call a stake in the ground. And basically what that is, is, you know, you have to get a website, and that is your stake so in the ground. And you know, mine is Dave bulls.com and basically that way, when you're actually out there and you're, you're making stuff, you can upload it to a website. And this is, I think, is key, because now I don't know it's just maybe, if it's just me, but whenever someone says, who you know, who's does, you know, creative work, or artistic work, and they say they don't have a website, I kind of go really like, you know what I mean? It just if it seems like it should be second nature at this point.

Danielle Raiz 6:42
Completely so I think this provincial artist, you know, your site is really your business card, and when you people talk to you, they'll just go to Google, they'll Google your name, and they need to find, like a professional, beautiful online presence, because it actually reflects on how they look at your work. So you really want to have control on how this is displayed, and, you know, Wix being Wix, we're really about, like, giving you all the tools so you don't have to think about how to create your website or how you know how to design it. We're just giving you everything, giving you all the tools that you need so you can just focus on your content and just put it, you know, in a beautiful template, and that could customize the entire thing and make it your own. So when people go to your site, you know, they feel they see your site and your logo and your brand, and you know, it's all you, and it doesn't really matter where the content is coming from.

Dave Bullis 7:31
Yeah, that's true, and especially now with video becoming what it is so important in marketing and advertising, you know, I mean, you know, for instance, you go into a lot of these video sites. And, you know, like, you know, Hulu voodoo, you know, YouTube, and you see the, what you see those ads before the video, and they're short films. They're no longer, just like people, you know, pitching you things. They're a literal short film, you know. And the product is, is what's being marketed, right? You know what I mean,

Danielle Raiz 8:01
Definitely. You know, businesses started realizing this video is really the most engaging way to connect people to their brand, to their brand, and to showcase their products. So they're actually the ads. As you said, they're becoming like little films that are incredible. You know, you've seen that. For example, I think the big fashion houses. Now they released to YouTube such incredible clips and short films that are all about, you know, showcasing a certain dress that they're selling or a certain collection. But it's like, it's like a film production, for sure. So this is totally something that is interesting.

Dave Bullis 8:37
So, so Danielle, you've had a few filmmakers come to you and come to Wix in general. And you sort of help them along. You know, I know, in talking with Vivian, you know you, she mentioned you have to an evening with Bucha and slate goods and NYC. And you know some of these. You know different projects. You know, when they come to you, what are some of the things that you sort of cover when you're when you're talking to them. Is there any sort of, like, do you have like, a sort of, like, a template, a check sheet that you go through, or is it sort of, you base it upon every different filmmaker for when, when they're gonna, you know, obviously, when they're coming to you with with advice for video and for websites, etc.

Danielle Raiz 9:17
Yeah. So the thing about slate, and the two examples that you gave slate goods and the and the evening with Bucha are two incredible, incredible examples of the platform. The thing is, we didn't reach out to them until after they actually created their website. Because the thing is, it's such a do it yourself platform. They didn't really need any help from us or any guidance for us. And they created two beautiful showcases. So slate New York, they're doing, they're selling Snickers and what they're working with nonprofits. So they use video on their website to connect people to the nonprofits that they work with to tell their stories, which really helps business. And you know, it's not like, it's not like the typical video creator, but it's someone that's realized. That video helps you sell. And it helped connect people to your brand and everything with Bucha. It just became one of my favorite stories, because the thing about that movie. It's a film that was, it's a documentary film that actually premiered in Venice festival, Venice Film Festival last year, and then slam dance and several other festivals. And the thing is that the director actually found a bunch of tapes of his mom, who was a journalist, like, I don't know how many decades ago, interviewing Charles Bucha, the writer, and it was so good, he decided to make a movie out of it, and he created this amazing documentary. And then he creates a website for it. And on the website, you know, you see, you can watch the trailer, you can see all the festivals that it's showcased in, and then you can, you know, contact him, and you have to press area and everything. So when you go there, you actually, you know, you hear the entire story behind film, and it's fascinating. So these are actually two great examples, you know, different uses for people who are either filmmakers or not, same filmmakers, adult realizing the power of video.

Dave Bullis 11:16
So then it's sort of, you know, take that a step further. Danielle, if you were to have somebody sort of come to you then, and a filmmaker and and he or she wanted to put their films, you know, use Wix to build a site, put some videos up, you know, you know, what? What advice would you give them? You know, obviously, because you mentioned you got to talk to the two filmmakers after their movies came out. But, you know, but if we, if you had the opportunity to talk people before those movies come out. You know what? What was would be some of the advice that you would give them?

Danielle Raiz 11:46
So I think the first thing I would say is, you know this, creating, creating movies and videos these days, it's not like a one way thing. So you have to engage with your viewers, and you have to do it even before you start filming. So you build your own website, you create a teaser, you put whatever content you have there, you start talking to your fans and engaging with them. You share behind the scenes and updates and teasers, and you really create a buzz about your film before it's even out there. And then once it's out there, so you revamp your website a little bit, and you make sure that the movie is available, you know, either for sale or even just a trailer if you want to do the festival run. But just keep, keep users like, keep your viewers engaged all the time. This is something that's really, really critical in my eyes. And then you know, if you add to it, like a director statement and interviews with your cast and exclusive content, and people really have like, they get a lot of your website. They really connect to your vision they need. They understand why you did what you did, and what you're trying to say. And I think this is, you know, what, just watching a video without all that context, you know, it's not as powerful as it can be. And the fact that you can engage with your fun defense in such way, the fact you can even, you know, send them updates, and, you know, even live stream from the set, you know, use whatever you have at the moment. You don't have to have the entire and film ready in order to start working. You have to start working on it a lot before it's done.

Dave Bullis 13:12
Yeah. And that's something I tell crowdfunders too, as well, is, you know, you have to sort of build that audience before you launch your crowdfunding campaign, because a lot of times, you know, they'll launch, and then they'll try to find their crowd that way, but you know what I mean? And then they, they sort of are trying to, they're sort of putting the cart before the horse, instead of actually saying, Let's build up an audience now and then, when we launch this thing, we'll be able to actually have an audience, and we'll actually have an audience that we can actually, you know, talk to once we launch this crowdfunding campaign. And it's the same way with the movie, you know, you want to build up an audience, and then by the time the movie comes out, you already, sort of, you already have that audience who said, Hey, Wilson, we've seen, you know, we've seen the poster, we've seen the trailer, and now we actually want to see the whole movie.

Danielle Raiz 13:57
Definitely, I totally agree with you on that, and I have to say that, for example, having a website for crowdfunders is really like, it's even essential, because it helps you appear a lot more professional than you you know you're not, you're not just another Kickstarter project. So you have your own, your own site with all the information there, with everything that you need. And we have actually had some users like that also about creating a buzz before. So one example that I can recall is the user that was he had a horror comedy for Valentine's Day. So what he did was it just, he sent out just a lot of teasers in social media. And by the way, social media, I'm sure you talk about it in your podcast all the time, how critical social media is for filmmakers, but he had a lot of social media buzz before the movie was out that, you know, it's going to be out in Valentine's Day. In Valentine's Day, it's going to be, you know, free to watch entire Valentine's Day, and then it's going to be paid per view. So he created a lot of buzz, and he released it on Valentine's Day, then it just started selling the next day. And all that buzz really, really helped. So, you know, you got. He got depressed, and he got all the social media and whatever. So it's, it was really a cool story,

Dave Bullis 15:07
Yeah, you know, it just to sort of piggyback on that story. Danielle, you know, one time I actually made a short film. It was one of those, you know, weekend film competitions where you have to make a film very, very quickly. And what I did was I actually used Wix to make a I wanted to make just a simple, one page website. I didn't want anything fancy. And I was like, I need something quick, because I don't want to sit here and, you know, do all this other stuff. So I actually used Wix, and I just made this one sheet of, oh, sorry, one page, and it just telling people what the movie is, and a couple little things here and there. And then the funniest thing was, I actually just put like at the bottom, like everything, like, here's where we're gonna be. And people actually responded to that, just that one page or like, because we didn't know what they said, Danielle, they said, Hey, we didn't have anywhere else to go. There was nowhere else to click on. There wasn't like, you know, all these different, you know, tabs the top. They said, You know, it was just very simple and self contained. And they said, you know, we you know, it seemed to get the point across a little better than if I had a different bunch of tabs to top. And you know, I just remembered that, you know, I've always taken that with me over the years. Because whenever I'm done, you know, thinking about making a different website or whatever, I'm always thinking, you know, I shouldn't make it too busy to give people too many options. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to have a page where it's like, watch this and then this and then that. You know what I mean. I want to make it so it's like, it's all sort of, it's like a path, like a linear path, if you know what I'm trying to say.

Danielle Raiz 16:34
So I take them through the journey. It makes a lot of sense. You know? You put what moldy you pull you put, for example, your most recent video on the top. You make sure they watch a recent thing, and you then, then add some, you know, either tabs or below the fold or whatever, with additional content for those who are interested in more. And you can connect between them. And you can split in, you know, categories and tag and keep people moving throughout the journey of your creation. It makes a lot of sense.

Dave Bullis 17:03
So, you know, as we sort of talk, you know, about content creation, you know, it seems like everyone's getting into that now, you know, I mean, all these different platforms are, you know, looking towards creating different content and stuff like that. And, you know, I wonder if, if it ever, I mean, I know this is, this is obviously, you this is kind of speculation. But I was, I would always wonder if different websites would be entertaining that even more like websites we don't even think about. You know what I mean, like, because, you know, if you look, the latest person I heard getting into, into con original content is voodoo, and that's owned by Walmart. So you got voodoo, you got Amazon, you got Netflix, YouTube, of course, does their thing and, and, you know, as I look out into the landscape, I wonder, you know what? What other websites and companies are going to start creating their own original content with shows and, and some of which, like we were discussing earlier, are going to just be commercials for things that are coming out. You know what I mean, like, you know, maybe, you know, like, different companies can focus on, you know, a new item or coming out. For instance, I knew a guy, he actually made a Star Wars short film to to promote these lightsabers that they had made. And they actually got, like, a got the actual license to make these lightsabers. And they actually, the trailer was just these two guys battling it out in a lightsaber fight, and they and that's how that was. Their whole marketing campaign.

Danielle Raiz 18:32
Sounds very cool. And yes, there are a lot of services. And you know, the thing is, and it's just, when you go to each of these services, you usually need to play by their rules, but then if you put everything on your own domain, so it's basically, we have the ability to showcase all the videos in one place. So if, for example, if what you're talking about right now, like, you could create some, you know, specific kind of content for Facebook, and then you could do something for YouTube or for female and you know, each platform has their own, you know their own style and their own, their own you know your intent of like, why you're doing what you're doing. You go to YouTube for the viral, and you go to vim because there's an amazing Creators community. And then you do like, live and viral and play, you know, things on a on Facebook, and then when you have all that content everywhere, it's kind of nice to have your own domain when you can showcase they're all in one place. So this is one thing that we put a lot of emphasis on. We know that creators just they have their content running around everywhere, and it's really hard to keep track. And you know, it looks different everywhere. And, you know, you keep using each of this platform for their own like each in their own advantage, but then you want, on your own side, to have the ability to control everything and to just say, Okay, this is all the things I created throughout all the platforms and everything, but this is mine. So this is one thing that we put a lot of emphasis on. And, you know, make it an easy to. Grab your videos from everywhere, and just say, Okay, this is, this is all Dave's work, you know, no matter where it's from, this is all day's work,

Dave Bullis 20:17
Yeah. And that's very true. And you know, there's, there's speaking of, you know, putting on, like, everything in our portfolio, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, what advice would you give about SEO? Because, you know, every No, Danielle, everyone talks now about, you know, if everyone does have a website, or if everyone does have a channel, you know, we, you know, how do you actually, how do people actually find it, other than, you know, word of mouth. So, you know, because, obviously, because you've seen all these different things, you know. What advice would you have for somebody to, sort of, you know, make sure that their SEO, their search engine optimization, is actually locked down and and so that way people can actually, if they are searching for maybe something like, you know, if they're searching for basketball or ping pong tables or something like that, that they can actually find your videos.

Danielle Raiz 21:01
So, actually, SEO is something that Wix put a lot of emphasis on. So we actually have tools that automate this entire process for you and help you make this, you know, the best you can find. Because, as we said in the beginning, when people will want to look things up, they'll just go to Google, and then they just real, you know, they go there and they say, Okay, I'll probably like, you know, whatever comes up on the first page, this is what it'll probably build click. I think the most important thing is just to make sure that you have a lot of information on everything that you add on your site. So you want to, you know, you want to fill in all the details of everything that you do. For example, if you're filmmaker and you have your know, your crew and your cast and the description and everything you want everything written down, because basically Google just looks, you know, for good solid content. And if it's good solid content, what you have there, and, you know, the favorite video, so that's even better. So you should be fine. And and also, you know, there are a lot of tools to optimize your SEO, which I think everyone should definitely use because this is something critical these days.

Dave Bullis 22:04
Yeah, it's, you know, was we talk about this podcast, you know, it's a war of eyeballs and ears now, because you know everyone, you know the playing field is even out a lot. You know, obviously, you know, hard work and talent still count. But you know, if everyone has a camera, you know you have to be, you have to be, you have to, especially, be able to stand out from the pack.

Danielle Raiz 22:24
Definitely.

Dave Bullis 22:25
So, you know, as we sort of, you know, go on with this conversation. Danielle, I wanted to ask, you know, when you're putting together a website, you know, what are some of the things that you usually tell people to make sure you focus on? I mean, is there any anything you know, you know, beyond, you know, obviously, since we're talking a lot about video, is there anything sort of beyond video that you make, that you tell filmmakers, you make sure to put this on your site so it looks, you know, it looks and feels and and it is a complete site.

Danielle Raiz 22:55
Yeah. So for filmmakers, what I would say, besides, you know, having all your content there with all, you know, the additional in front everything is connect, all the social channels that you have. You're probably using, you know, Facebook, Snapchat, whatever you want to use. Them all. You want to show all the buzz around your films and all the activity around it. You want to share updates and behind the scenes and stuff. I would probably do this in like, a production blog, which could be great for filmmakers, you know, to get people engaged with the movie, and then always have a press section, you know, make it easy. You want to get coverage for your film, even if it's, you know, not yet, like, not yet in production, but you want to get some coverage. You want to you want to get somebody make it really easy for media to find what they're looking for. So they have, like, a proper press section with all the media they need, with your context info, make it easy for them to help you, to help you get, you know, the coverage you want. Same goes for screenings. You know, there are so many apps and stuff you just, if you're already out there, just, you know, have all your laurels out and have all your screening dates and everything. So people know where to find you. And I think that's, that's the most important thing.

Dave Bullis 24:06
You know, I wanted to ask to Danielle, you know, I don't know if the answer to this question, so I figured I'd ask you it, are forums still a thing? You remember forums like, you know, back back in the day, you know, where people would actually have, you know, you know, where they could post different, you know, things. I mean, you know, I don't even know if that's a thing anymore, but, I mean, is it? I mean, do you do, do, you know, have you seen filmmakers or even other users, actually, you know, try to make, try to put forums into the website and maybe have any, any type of sort of engagement with it?

Danielle Raiz 24:37
So, yes, definitely. The thing about forums is that people, a lot of times, you know, forums is just another way to create a community around something. And if you're interesting enough, or you're doing something that's interesting to users enough, they'll come and they'll read and they'll engage in they'll also want to comment, which is, you know, makes perfect sense. So I do think forums are definitely something that you should have if you. Want ongoing engagement, but it needs to be interesting enough, so I would probably create a forum around something very specific, for example, your Star Wars example. So Star Wars fans are, like, hysterical, okay, and if you have a forum that's all about, you know, Star Wars fans and creating media around it, and things that would totally engage, you know, viewers coming to your site, help them stay longer, and help get them really connected to what you do. So it's just a strong way to create a community,

Dave Bullis 25:31
Okay, you know. And that's a good point, because I see, you know, I haven't been on forums in a while, and I've always wondered if that that was still, you know, a viable option. Because, again, you know, like we were just saying, there's so many options out there now. And I, you know, it's you know, you have so many different things to choose from. It's hard to sometimes, you know, wonder, you know, what do you mean? What if that tool that you, you've used before is ever is still going to be, you know, a good option if you know, I'm trying to say so, it's you know. But you know, as you sort of bring this back to video, you know, even with video, you know, some of the thing, you know, the tools that that I've used in the past, you know, you can use some of them still, and other ones, it's, it's just like you can't do it anymore. For instance, I used to, I had a mini DV cam that, you know, if I used it, now, I feel like I'm kind of, you know, shooting myself in the foot, because I'm giving myself an extra step, because you have to take the to take the DVD, the DV tape, out of the camera, you know. You have to, you know, digitize the footage so you can, so you can start editing it in something like Premiere or advid, you know. And it's just, you start to say, Well, wait a minute, I want I just shoot digital to begin with, and eliminate this whole process, you know, you know what I mean. It's just, it's just how things change anymore, so rapidly, you know, in the world we live in now,

Danielle Raiz 26:46
Definitely,

Dave Bullis 26:50
Sorry, I'm sorry, Daniel, I mean, interrupt you. I'm sorry.

Danielle Raiz 26:52
I'm with you.

Dave Bullis 26:55
Awesome. So, you know, and that's something I also wanted to ask, too, is, you know it you know, where do you see, you know, Wix going in the next couple of years, in terms of, you know, video and everything out and everything like that. I, you know, with everything, sort of, you know, we talked about all different things, you know, is there any place that you would you can see Wix going?

Danielle Raiz 27:18
Well, I'll tell you this thing, we're like, we're evolved. We're here to empower Video Creators. Okay, so as this industry evolves and as the technologies change, so we're going to evolve with that. And we want to provide, you know, easy access to all the tools you're already using. We want to help you, as we said, build a community around your content. So we're always going to find the most, the best and most innovative way to do that and and I think that this landscape of, you know, currently, we're talking about, you know, showcasing and distributing your content, which is something that has changed dramatically in the last couple of years. And if you look now, then you'll see that, for example, on demand, which is something that you know, talk to me like, 10 years ago, I wouldn't believe that someone would pay for video on demand. And today it's like, it's the most obvious thing that you can, you know, sell your content directly to fans. You can sell, you know, your you can sell your skills, you can sell tutorials, you can do so many things with it. So this is something that we could never imagined. And now this is so common, and this landscape keeps changing, so we're just gonna, we just plan to change with it.

Dave Bullis 28:29
Yeah, and, like we were just saying, you know, everything changes so rapidly now, and you have to, sort of, you know, be, be it, be ahead of the curve, and, and, you know, again, that's where I go back to with, you know, content creation, and you know, being able to get, be able to get your stuff out there to your fans directly, because, you know, that's what you know has happened with technology. You know, over the past even, let's just say, 10 years, you know, you've cut out the whole middle man, and now you're selling directly to your fans. You can make a whole, you know, a website, and you can and talk directly to people. And once those people find your website, you can start, you know, engaging with them. And, you know, hopefully make a fan for life. And then, you know, that's something, you know, I always wonder where the next iteration is going to be, but, but you know that that's what I mean by, you know, how everything has changed is, you know, maybe it'll be completely different than what we think it'll be, or maybe it'll, you know, versus it, you know, changing increments, if you know what I'm if you know what

Danielle Raiz 29:23
I mean, yeah, I think I'm pretty sure, you know, I'm pretty sure that things are going to change and like different, like levels. So the technology is changing dramatically all the time, and then the engagement levels that you have, and are changing all the time. So it also, it also affects the content that you're creating. So suddenly, you know you create like a live stream and you talk to people directly, or you create like a 360 movie, and you make you you make your viewers. You know they can select their next scene or where they're going with it. So there are so many things that are changing. Changing it once.

It's going to be very interesting to see where creators take this, because they think it's really the power is really in the creator's hands, on how they're going to take this amazing, you know, these amazing technologies and these amazing opportunities and create, like, ground breaking experiences. It's all about like, creating an experience, not just like now, once you know, many years ago, you would sit in the cinema, just watch a film and just go out, and now it's like a whole experience, experience you're getting into, and everything is getting a lot more interactive. So as time goes, it's going to be really interesting to see what creators do with it. And I think that they just like they'll be the ones to decide where this is going. You can have the most amazing technology out there, but if you don't get creators to create amazing things with it, amazing experiences with it there, it's not going to work.

Dave Bullis 30:58
That is a fantastic point. Danielle, that is absolutely fantastic. You know, Daniel, we've been talking for about 30 minutes, give or take. You know it just in closing, is there anything that we haven't got a chance to discuss, or that you want to discuss now, or maybe even something you wanted to sort of say, to put a period in this whole conversation

Danielle Raiz 31:18
And listen like, if we're talking about like Wix in general, or Wix video specifically. So the thing to remember is that we always have creators in mind. So it's always about, you know, having people that, giving people the ability to to have complete control over harder content is displayed, like you work so hard, you know, on your latest short film or whatever, you should be the one to decide how it's displayed, where it's displayed, how it is monetized. You should be able to sell it directly if you want to not rely on any other service. Should be able to do it on your own domain, like it's all about, you know, providing control and given the given the power back, I think, and this is something that we're doing. So we're fairly new service at the moment, and we keep evolving this and improving this over time. And I think we have amazing things, you know, coming soon, that I'm not even able to discuss, but I'm sure you will follow up or through this, and I'm sure we'll keep talking. And it's been a pleasure,

Dave Bullis 32:25
And you know, and obviously we're definitely gonna keep talking. Danielle, and I just wanted to say, I'm sorry, one last question was, where can people find you out Online?

Danielle Raiz 32:34
So you can find us at wix.com basically, you have a whole section for video creators with a lot of beautiful, stunning film templates and templates for video creators. And then you have the with video app and within the site, where you can have all the amazing features we talked about.

Dave Bullis 32:53
And do you have any like personal Twitter or anything you want to give out?

Danielle Raiz 32:58
Danielle, not really. I'm a LinkedIn kind of girl,

Dave Bullis 33:02
By the way I shot you a LinkedIn friend request, I'm great, so feel free to decline that at any time. No, I'm just kidding around. But you know, I'm really good. I just, I made sure to, I looked, I was looking for if you had any social media, like a Twitter or anything. And LinkedIn came up, and I was like, Oh, there she is. I'll send her a connection request.

Danielle Raiz 33:26
But I'm all about giving other people to stage. You know, I'm providing, still giving other people the stage. I'm a backstage

Dave Bullis 33:36
Well, Danielle, I want to say thank you so much, you know, for coming on.

Danielle Raiz 33:40
Thank you for having me, Dave.

Dave Bullis 33:42
You're very welcome. Take care Danielle, bye!

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BPS 427: From Pills to Pictures: Cynthia Hill’s Unlikely Path to Documentary Filmmaking

July 10, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The rain falls without apology. The wind carries no judgment. And yet, in the heart of a storyteller, there stirs a quiet question: Why am I here? On today’s episode, we welcome Cynthia Hill, a documentarian whose journey from pharmacy school to the pulse of Southern cinema is anything but ordinary.

Cynthia Hill is a North Carolina-born filmmaker who transitioned from a career in pharmacy to creating critically acclaimed documentaries, capturing the soul of the South through patient storytelling and intimate character studies.

In this profound conversation, we have Cynthia Hill, who gently ushers us through her unexpected voyage from pill bottles to production studios. Growing up in rural Eastern North Carolina, her world was one of fields, tradition, and quiet ambition. Pharmacy was her ticket out. Yet the calling of story—the soft tug of human curiosity—proved louder than the ka-ching of a pharmacy register. It wasn’t film school that lit the match; it was her own desire to understand and document the unnoticed poetry of everyday life.

Her storytelling roots were homegrown—nurtured around dinner tables, drawn from the drawl of uncles spinning long-winded tales that never quite knew where to end. “Being Southern,” she reflects, “you’re never short of characters.” And maybe that’s the alchemy of it all—turning these small, almost invisible, moments into a mosaic of the human experience. Her style doesn’t demand attention; it beckons softly, waiting until you forget the camera is even there.

Cynthia’s entry into filmmaking began with a burning need to tell one story—about tobacco, about land, about legacy. The irony of a crop that both sustained and destroyed wasn’t lost on her. “Yes, it kills people,” she says, “but it also put a lot of us through college.” That kind of contradiction is where her documentaries thrive. She peels back the layers—not with force, but with presence—and lets the humanity breathe. Her lens doesn’t preach. It bears witness.

As the seasons changed, so did her subjects. From Southern farmers to Mexican guest workers, from the quiet dramas of the kitchen to the roaring engines of NASCAR, Hill always centers the people behind the spectacle. What drives her, still, is the question: Who are they when the world isn’t watching? That question led her to embed with Hendrick Motorsports, creating a docuseries that focused not on victory laps but on the tire changers, the engineers, the human grind behind the wheel. “We’re not doing sports coverage,” she says. “We’re telling stories about people.”

Her approach is delicate. She waits. She listens. She captures what other filmmakers might discard—the pause, the glance, the exhale after a hard truth. As she puts it: “The moment after the moment is usually the moment I’m after.” That’s where her art lives. Not in spectacle, but in subtlety.

Yet, as with all creators, success invites new questions. Cynthia now finds herself in unfamiliar territory—leading a team, managing people, and wrestling with the friction between art and business. “Is this still a passion,” she wonders aloud, “or is it just content?” That tension—the pull between soul work and sustainability—is what makes her journey so relatable to any artist trying to remain true while staying afloat.

“Show me, don’t tell me,” she says. And so she does. Every film is a quiet sermon in empathy, a reminder that even the ordinary can be extraordinary if we look closely enough.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
So on this week's episode of the podcast, my next guest is a filmmaker from North Carolina. Her TV series, a chef's life is now in its fifth season, the HBO documentary, private violence and PBS documentary tobacco money feeds my family are just two of the credits that under her belt. Her current project is an eight part Docu series, road to race day, which follows Hendrix motorsports, the most winning team in professional stock car history. And it's all going to be about this 2017 NASCAR season. And she also teamed up with Peter Berg film 45 to sell this thing to complex networks, which is unbelievable. We're going to talk all about how she did all that good stuff with guest Cynthia Hill.

Cynthia Hill 2:39
It's easy to access the equipment it's there's not that, that hurdle of it just being too expensive for people to access. I mean, you can shoot a film on your iPhone now, so if you really have a story to tell, you can pretty much tell it no matter what your your socio economic situation is, which means that there are a lot more people out there telling stories. Again, it's still trying to get the stories out there that I think probably is the biggest hurdle, not necessarily making it, but getting it out there to the masses still becomes a bit of a hurdle.

Dave Bullis 3:16
Yeah, yeah, very, very true. And that's something also we touch upon in the podcast. But you know, before you and I talk about, you know, distribution stuff like that, which I'm actually very interested in hearing your point of view with, I wanted to ask, you know, Cynthia, how you got involved in the film industry, you know. So the question I have to start with is, did you go to film school Cynthia?

Cynthia Hill 3:35
I did not go to film school. I went to pharmacy school. So, the natural, logical transition, or the next path from pharmacy school, is filmmaking, right? No, it's, you know, I grew up in a really remote area of eastern North Carolina, you know, agricultural based economy. And the thing that you would do if you went to college is you would for a woman in particular, as you would do nursing or teaching. So me, even going into pharmacy school was was kind of risky and and I really didn't know what I wanted to do. To be honest with you, I didn't have a particular calling, but I knew that the pharmacist in town made the most money, or seemed to make the most money, and so I thought that at least he had one of the biggest houses. So I thought, you know, if that's that was going to be my profession. And then when you look at the starting salaries of undergraduate degrees, especially when I was going and the late 80s, the pharmacist was number one. And so I just was ready to get out of a poor town and make some money. And so I was going to be a pharmacist, but that was not what was in store for me.

Dave Bullis 4:55
You mentioned about the link between pharmacist and filmmaker, and I was. And you know what? I can actually see it, you know, because I, you know, I've known some people who've gone in the in the med field, and they've gone right into filmmaking. I actually had a friend of mine who was a spinal surgeon, and he was and in the morning, before surgery, he sat at his kitchen table, and he was writing a TV pilot, and basically,

Cynthia Hill 5:23
Yeah, it's surprising that right brain, left brain kind of thing. And and the healthcare profession, I think, is more maybe artistic than we we know, or at least maybe some of the folks that are in it, maybe so I don't know, but for me, it was definitely a strange kind of diversion when it happened. But I wasn't, I wasn't necessarily the best pharmacy student. I wasn't necessarily engaged, but, you know, I, I was, you know, out there. I was looking for something, and I met these folks working on these, this TV show. They were traveling to Chapel Hill. I went to UNC Chapel Hill, and they were doing this accident reconstruction show. That was that type of show that was really popular in the early 90s, and it just seemed so fascinating, and way more fascinating than being in a pharmacy counting pills all day long. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna hang out with these people, and I ended up going out to LA because I made some good friends, and spending some time in LA, and I would just hang out with these people. And storytelling was not necessarily something that I thought that I was good at, because I was not a good writer. But if you're in the south, storytelling is just ingrained in you, because you hear your grandmama, your granddaddy, everybody tells stories, and so you're just it's just a part of who you are. And so I had this knack for telling stories that I did not know was there because I was just driven into math and science, because I was obviously good at those things, and I I found this whole world that really was intriguing. And I came back to pharmacy school the next year. And for every project I could possibly do, papers, presentations, I would make videos for it instead of actually doing the thing I was supposed to do. And for my rotation when I was working in different locations, like I had a retail rotation, and instead of doing a paper, which you were supposed to do, I made two commercials for the pharmacy for local cable. So I found my niche in pharmacy school in this really strange sort of way. And the dean of the pharmacy school pulled me aside and was like, Cynthia, you're not exactly the best pharmacy student, but you got something. You got some talent here, and I want to try to help you. And so he encouraged me to go to graduate school at Auburn University in the pharmacy administration department, which sounds like another kind of strange thing, but they had a production studio in the graduate school there, and any communications department would have salivated at the equipment that we had access to. But because we had access to pharmaceutical money, we had all this equipment, and they were doing this, this health education media, and they were one of the first schools, especially, you know, pharmacy school, that was getting into interactive health care. And so I found a surprising home there, and another sort of entree into deeper into the television world. And I did this study with prime time live in New York City, where we, as the pharmacy school, took the study component of medication dispensing errors, and we helped Prime Time Live do an undercover report on pharmacists making dispensing mistakes. And so I flew up to New York and spent a lot of time up there. And I became the undercover shopper, because I could control the medication. And I became a part of that study. And then after that, I was just really, completely, just spoiled. I was not going to end up in a pharmacy counting pills after that. So then I had to figure out how to become a filmmaker.

Dave Bullis 9:22
I was going to ask you, when you were the mystery shopper, if you had like, a hidden camera somewhere or something.

Cynthia Hill 9:27
I had somebody that was behind me with a camera I was mined and then my companion had a camera in his wig or in his hat, depending on what setup we were using that day. So it was this little girl from this rural town in eastern North Carolina. Was not in eastern North Carolina anymore. It was rather funny,

Dave Bullis 9:53
Because I imagine those, those hard copy or there's 2020, things where they would have those hidden cameras. And, you know, and again, that's sort of like now how everything's changed. You know, cameras have become so miniaturized. You know, you can have your phone out and that's a camera. You have these little spy cameras that I see sometimes online, because I imagine when you when you shot that was it? When was it one of those big, sort of, like mini TV cameras or something or something different?

Cynthia Hill 10:30
Well, it had a big pack, so he had a backpack, but the lens, like he was able to bring it up into his wig or his hat, so it was easier to hide, but it was definitely a much larger rig than what you would find today.

Dave Bullis 10:47
So, and you know, that's where I imagine there had to be a lot of, like, creativity, a lot of ingenuity to hide that, you know what I mean? So, yeah, for sure. So when you were talking about storytelling, I mean, just to sort of take a step back, I mean, you were talking about growing up and up and in the south and and you, and you were, you heard stories from, you know, your grandmother, what was some of the things that you like really stuck out with you like, in terms of story? I mean, was it, was it, maybe how the person was telling it, or maybe, what was it, some of the characters involved? I mean, because I imagine a lot of that is what really sort of molded your your way of storytelling that you for when you make your own projects.

Cynthia Hill 11:29
Yeah, it's definitely there are a lot of characters in the south, so I gravitate to eccentric personalities. I think too it's that's one thing that you know, being in the south, you're never short of somebody who's really interesting. You know, they're all around you. And I think to like my my grandma's brother, Uncle James, he was always good for stories, and they're always long and elaborate. And I think I maybe inherited a bit of that, and it takes you a while to get to the point, but they're always really good stories. And I have sort of this, this problem of ending stories. My first film that I made, one of the My Favorite compliments, I guess you could say is from Da Penny Baker. He said he was using in his classroom. But he's like, it's a really good film with all of its three endings. So it's like, yeah, I know what you're saying. So actually, ending something is difficult for me, you know, wrapping it up and coming to a close, you know, because there's always something else you can say that, you know, you get, helps make your point. So trying to get it all in there, as has been a challenge for me, and something that has taken me a while to to perfect, which I still haven't but, you know, being able to concisely tell a story without rambling on is a bit difficult for Southerners.

Dave Bullis 13:10
I think that's fine Cynthia. I mean, did you see Lord of the Rings Return of the King? I mean, that had a lot that had like seven different endings. You know that just No, I remember

Cynthia Hill 13:20
Being best of them with my endings, my multiple endings.

Dave Bullis 13:26
I remember being in the theater with that movie, and people were like, Oh, is that it? Oh, no, there's more. And then they kept getting up and down. I was, was like, either this, either, either there was something, this was a unique way of storytelling, or Peter Jackson was just trolling everybody, you know, but, but

Cynthia Hill 13:43
You know where he is in his career. I mean, he can keep going if he's got something else to say. So I think that that's kind of it too. You know, you have the luxury at certain at a certain point where you can keep telling the story you want to tell. But I didn't that with my first film, even though I thought I did. So,

Dave Bullis 14:04
Yeah. And I want to, you know, get into, into talking about all your films too. And I just want to touch one more thing about storytelling, you know, because I love hearing like all the different, unique point of views, everything about storytelling. And, you know, there was a movie that was out recently I didn't see, I think was maybe out a year or two ago called Blue Ruin. And the tagline really stuck out to me because I think it was, it was something along the lines of a southern revenge tale, or the Southern Gothic revenge tale. And I sort of kind of, you know, stuck with me because I started to see a couple of the articles, you know, about the the how the the southern revenge tale is kind of different and basically, you know, as we tell stories, you know, you know, you tell me it's story. I tell you a story. There's all different components of to them. And usually a story is to reveal a transformation, you know, usually there's, you know, something inside, you know, of the society, of the culture that the of ideals that they. True or ideals that they really value. So, you know, and it's different too, because, you know, for people, you know, I have a lot of listeners who aren't from America, and they still don't understand, you know, America is huge. I mean, this country is absolutely huge. And we have so many different, you know, different regions. You have the East Coast, you have the west coast of the Midwest. You have, you know, the northeast, you have this, you have the south. And I mean, all of these different ways of telling stories, and, you know, all these unique points of view. So, you know, Cynthia, when you take your you know movies out, do you notice that you know, you tell the you know different? Do you notice that maybe your stories have that, that sort of like unique vantage point, but it's something that sort of, there's like a parallel that can be drawn through all through all different types of regions and stuff like that.

Cynthia Hill 15:48
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've never really looked at it that way. I do feel very much like it is Southern. But what does southern mean? You know, I think for me and and when it comes to storytelling, it's about character. It's about character, and it's also about the small moments. And, you know, I, when I am in the field now, in working in the documentary medium, it's, you know, I don't necessarily have a set agenda, you know, you go out to if you've got something that you know you're making a, you know, a film about a certain topic, or or whatever, you've got some agenda, you kind of know what world you're entering. But I like to be fluid and wait for things to happen and for characters to reveal themselves, and moments that let the characters become human just happen and unfold. And so I spend a lot of time with nothing happening, waiting for those moments to happen. And a lot of what I say, especially when I work with new editors, is that what ends up on the screen with me a lot of the times are things that other I feel like other filmmakers, or maybe other editors, especially like in older kinds of TV dot formats, where that stuff would end up on the editing room floor, typically. But I like those moments that are subtle, that take the audience a little bit more time, take you know you've got to pay closer attention to them and those things that are going to build so that by the time I make my point, I have teased it out a long time, and so that it becomes even more meaningful to the audience by the time you see that revealed. And so that's what I'm doing when I'm in the field. A lot is just waiting for those moments. And when you're, you're with me, and I work with new folks in the field, they think I'm not doing anything because I look like I'm not doing anything, but I'm listening, and I'm I'm playing, paying close attention and waiting for that moment. And usually that moment happens when everybody kind of lets their guard down, or maybe, you know the moment after another moment is usually the moment that I'm after. So it's kind of, it's hard to explain, but when you add all all those things together, it just really helps with it helps with the really building who those characters are that you're with, and those narratives, because those small moments, I feel like are, they're really the important things that are happening.

Dave Bullis 18:31
Oh, and I see exactly what you mean to it's like a slow burn, you know. And rather than, sort of, like the fast paced, sort of MTV style of sort of editing or, you know. And honestly, I've seen, you know, that's good to have, because I don't ever want to see where filmmaking or anything becomes homogenized, where everybody shoots and edits and etc, the same way. And you know, just just as we get started, you're talking about your career, Cynthia, you know, you mentioned, how do you go from pharmacist to filmmaker? So, you know, what was, what was the step that you took? So that way you said, Look, I'm not going to do Pharm. To do pharmacy tech work anymore. I'm going to do filmmaking full time. So you know, what was that step that you took?

Cynthia Hill 19:10
Well, until this year, I still was employed by Walmart as a pharmacist, so I was canned unceremoniously. As of late, I'd only work two days. So it was it was coming, but it's I and just not that I have. I apologize up front, I have a tendency to answer the question that I want to answer. So I'm going to back step just a little bit pharmacy to me. Gave me permission to experiment. It gave me that solid foundation and that financial security that I needed to take risks. And so I knew I could always go and work as a pharmacist. So it allowed me to not go and have to work on other people's projects if I didn't want to, you know, I wasn't out there using that creative side of my brain to, you know, do ad work or, you know, do something that I that wasn't coming from inside of me in that medium, so I could devote all of that energy to working on what I wanted to work on. So that's what I've always done. And it's also, I mean, it's, it's been really great for me, because I have a very distinctive style. And you would, you know, when you see something that I work on, but the downfall is that I do create my stuff kind of in a vacuum, and I don't have a lot of mentors and stuff like that, because I've never worked for anybody else. I've always just done what I wanted to do. But when I first started out, you know, I I had this one story that was burning inside of me that I knew I had to tell, and that was the story of tobacco farming and growing up in the South and in this region of the country, tobacco was the one crop that small farmers and families could rely on. And yes, it kills people, but it also puts in a lot of us to college, and created opportunities that would not have otherwise existed, and also kept small farms intact in the south when when it was no longer possible or viable with other commodities. So I had this, this, this strange relationship with this crop that, you know, kills people, but also something that I had a lot of fondness for. You know, it was a lot of memories with the family working, and it was very much a family kind of business and operation where we would, we would help each other, you know, harvest the crop every summer. And that's what I did up until I went to college. And so I knew that that was a story I wanted to tell, because I could see the demise of that small family farm happening in front of my eyes, and I had to tell that story. And so when I first started out, it was like, I'm just going to tell this story. I didn't consider myself an artist or a filmmaker. I just knew I was going to do that. So I was going to raise $10,000 and film for one season, and that was going to be my film. But instead, I filmed for over three years and raised over $100,000 and it took me another two years to edit the film, to make my first film, and I still couldn't call myself a filmmaker. After that, I didn't have enough confidence in myself, but that became, began my path, and each time I start a film, I swear I'm going to make it in less than five years, but I still have a hard time making a film in less than five years, so maybe one day.

Dave Bullis 23:12
Well, so let me ask you Cynthia, when you decided to raise that money, you know that that's sort of like the million dollar question, no pun intended for a lot of filmmakers is they always say, you know, what steps do you go to raise funds? Some people say it's crowdfunding. Some people say it's private equity. So you know, what methods did you use to, sort of, you know, raise these funds to help make your documentary?

Cynthia Hill 23:36
Yeah, for this one, it was all foundation money. And the first two grant proposals I sent out were funded, which is completely 100% unheard of. I had already shot some so I had something to show. You know, so I was I was able to show proof of concept and what I was trying to do. But if I had not have had that kind of success out of the gate, I probably wouldn't have continued, because it would have been just too depressing. But then, after those first two, I probably the, probably the next 25 were not funded. So, you know, it was really one of those things where it's it's so difficult, and there's no magic answer to it, you know, there's one of those. If it's a social issue. Film, no, you can try the foundation route. If it's, you know, you can try the crowdfunding route. And I've done that twice now, and I never want to do that again. It says it's a special kind of torture. Crowdfunding, or at least the process of actually during the campaign, is torture, and then it's even more torture when you have to fulfill all this bullshit that you've promised people during your crowdfunding campaign, you actually have to make good on all these promises. Is. So it's really, you know, there's no magic answer. The equity thing, I still have a hard time with that. I've had this one really amazing woman who's been trying to give me money for this project that I'm currently working on. And I don't, I don't know how I feel about that, because, you know, once you have somebody that's invested in you, then it's like you feel like you got to make money. And two, you feel like you got somebody looking over your shoulder. And so I'm contemplating that now, you know, I'm to a point in my career that I need to be able to do that. You know, this last project that where the I have a development deal with HBO and some development money from Sundance for it, but I need to be able to have some additional funds in place before I can go back to try to show what the project really is. And so what do I do in the meantime? Because it's not really a social issue film that I can go out and do the foundation route again. So I'm sitting here thinking, I really need to call that lady back and take her money. Like, it's hard, yeah, this whole legal thing with, you know, sailing securities, bloody blah, blah, blah, but yeah, it's, you know, I feel like I've got to grow up and you know, this is, this is my business now, this is, this is how I make a living. It. I am to that point where I actually can say that, and I have a lot of folks that now work with me or for me. And, you know, I've got to also be mindful of, you know, their, their well being too, not just my own.

Dave Bullis 26:40
Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, you know, that's something we talk a lot about on this podcast, is, you know, the whole legal aspect of taking people's money, you know, private equity, crowdfunding, all those different routes and, you know, and I've heard everything from, hey, we did it for free. By, I mean, that's what I did, too, you know, I didn't go to film school. My first student film was me making a feature film. And we borrowed every set, everything, everything was all borrowed. You know, don't, you know, a friend of mine had a house we could shoot in, and we've had that all the way to, you know, very expensive movies on here. So, you know, it's just always interesting to hear, you know, everything, you know, all those two extremes and everything in between. And you know, as we talk more about making documentaries and everything else, making it into a living is something special Cynthia, because that takes a lot of hard work. Takes a lot of talent. It takes a lot of patience, and a lot of times filmmakers maybe make one film or two, and they get kind of burned out from the whole process.

Cynthia Hill 27:41
Well, this is true, you know. And I think I'm struggling with that right now, you know, is it a business, or is it still a passion, you know? So trying to straddle still wanting to do this work, because it's something that, you know, burns inside of me, versus, like, just making content because I've got a lot of mouths to feed, and I don't want to be in that place, you know. And it's new for me to manage people, you know, because I I have finally accepted that I'm an artist that comes with artist tendencies, which means that I'm not great at necessarily managing people and so. But you know, when you have this kind of operation, where we have right now, where this past year, we produced an eight part series that were hour long, each was an hour long, so eight hours of that, and then another 10 part half hour series. We're producing a lot of content, and it takes a lot of people to pull that off. And you know, we're doing this in a part of the country that doesn't have the infrastructure, and, you know, the the depth of talent and stuff. So no, we're training our own where we are making it work even when the odds are completely against us. And that, in and of itself, to me, is something that I'm really proud of and proud of the team that we have in place for that. But then how do you keep that going? You know how much of inside of me has to come out to keep that, that those creative juices going because so far that those stories are all coming from me, you know, like, just the creative part of it, you know, putting it together, and that is really that's hard to keep that going and to feel that burden of that, and then, like, is that really what I want to do moving forward? Or do I want to, like, quit all that and go back and, you know, make a narrative film, which I've been contemplating for a long time. So, you know, it's, I'm struggling a bit. I don't know if it's midlife bullshit mess, but Yeah, you know, you the success is great, but it's also like, Is this really what I want? And you are we? Are we happy? Lord, I'm in therapy.

Dave Bullis 30:18
Yeah, this podcast is like therapy for a lot of people, myself included, but no, I'm just joking, Cynthia, but no, it's, this is what it is. It's a discussion, you know. And that's, you know, some of the things that we discuss in this podcast is stuff you don't hear other, you know, any other place. And what I mean by that is, you know, the things that that affect filmmakers, things that they go through, stuff like that. You know, too many podcasts, too many articles they paint either a rosy picture or they paint this very bleak picture. And it's really, you know, it's not really one of the other, it's usually in between, you know, the ones that paint the rosy picture like, oh, yeah, I submitted the Sundance, and we wanted 10 billion and then we're all rich now, and the and the and the bleak picture is like, Oh, I try to submit the Sundance. That's all bullshit. I couldn't get any other film festival. There was a little bullshit, and I threw up on YouTube, and nobody watched it. And now I'm, you know, 100 grand in the hole, and I hate my life, and, you know, so it's kind of like, you know, trying to find this happy medium. Because I, believe me, I you know, when I started doing this, even before I started doing this podcast, I met so many different people doing so many different things on so many different film sets, and I heard so many different stories about successes and failures, successes and failures. And that's why I wanted to do this podcast, you know, because it's I've noticed a common thread among a lot of filmmakers. That's why I started this podcast. So, you know, when you made your tobacco documentary about, you know, obviously it's focused on the south, you know. But you kept going, and you turned into other projects, you know. So after, if you're the documentary aired, you know, and was completed, you know what? You know, what? What was your next step in continuing your filmography?

Cynthia Hill 31:59
Well, I was helping work on another film at the same time some other film makers here in Durham. And so it's I was, that was February one, which was about the Greensboro lunch camera sit in so I was able to see a little bit about, you know, what else could be opportunities. And then this story came along as I was finishing up the tobacco film that was about the farm workers that were coming from Mexico. And Dave, can we start that over again? Because I feel like the February one thing is kind of like left field.

Dave Bullis 32:39
Sure, absolutely.

Cynthia Hill 32:41
Yeah, I just tell about the tobacco. I mean, ask me the question again.

Dave Bullis 32:46
Sure, sure, no problem. So, you know, you kept on going. So you know, after you made your tobacco documentary, you know, what was the next step you you you made to continue your filmography.

Cynthia Hill 33:00
Well, when I was finishing up tobacco money fees my family, the one of the farmers that I had been profiling was getting farm workers from Mexico in this guest worker program. And he got farm workers that were being bussed directly from Mexico straight to his farm. They would open the door from the bus and they would get out on his farm in North Carolina. And I was like, whoa. What the hell is that? You know we when I was growing up, I remember when we had the first Mexicans that showed up in our community to harvest cucumbers, and that was the first time we locked our doors because the Mexicans were in town. And so there's this thing with we don't want foreigners in our communities doing our work is taking our work and but then we are actively bussing folks in to do the work that we don't want to do. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is so fascinating. And so then I spent the next two years filming a story of these farm workers that were coming from Mexico in this guest worker program, I was able to find a farm in North Carolina that would let me film. And that, in and of itself, was a huge hurdle, because there was so much suspicion about this program and folks trying to do this gotcha kind of filmmaking at the time and still to this day. And so getting a farmer comfortable with us being there to do a do a story about farm workers was really, was not an easy feat. But when we finally latched on to this one guy who was willing to do to. Willing to let us stay on his farm. It was so eye opening to spend a whole season with this one farm worker. Well, we several, but we ended up going back home with two of them, and we took that bus ride back home to Mexico on bus after bus to the back of a pickup truck to get to his home, back in his village in Durango, Mexico. And you know, it's not that they, you know, especially for this guest worker program, they're not trying to move to to the US. You know, they were here to make money to bring back home. And now I'd always hear these things about the excuses for the horrible living conditions that the farm workers had to live in, about how so much better than what they got back in Mexico. And that how we're, you know, we're doing them such a favor. But then when we got back to his home in Mexico, he lived in this beautiful villa that it was very modest, but had a lot of outdoor space, and it was on the side. You could see his cows off in the horizon. And it's just like these are people who want to support their family, just like these farmers want to support their families, and it was important for me to, after telling the farmer story, to also tell that farm worker story. And I couldn't not do that. You know, I felt like it was a disservice just to tell the farmer story without completing that that story. So that was my second film.

Dave Bullis 36:42
So when you released that, that film, you sort of back to back with you told the farmers, you know, the farmers story, you tell the the workers story, you know, how was that? Did that change any perceptions?

Cynthia Hill 36:56
You hope that it does. I mean, I think that the folks that that saw it. You know, that's really the key, is, like getting folks to watch stuff. And I think the one of the main accomplishments for me in that with that film was that we had this one screening where we had farm workers and farmers in the room at the same time watching the film at the same time. And it was, it was kind of funny, like there would be moments where they would laugh at the same things, and they could see the humanity in each other. And to me, that's what it was about, you know, trying to bridge that gap. And I feel like I do that quite a bit, is trying to bridge that gap of understanding. And, you know, I'm not, I don't consider myself an activist filmmaker, per se, but I do tend to tackle topics that are important, and at least I like to, but I like to do it with story and really about understanding the, you know, the human condition. And, you know, really getting into characters and understanding the plight and trying to walk in their shoes for a little bit,

Dave Bullis 38:10
Yeah, and I think that's something that, you know, a lot of filmmakers have sort of missed, not only filmmakers, but we, you know, producers and TV show runners. And, you know, you tune in, because you want to see characters. You know, you see these characters in these sort of predicaments, and in, you know, a couple episodes ago, I interviewed Rhonda shear, and Rhonda shear was, you know, on you the host of USA is up all night. And, you know, something I spoke to her about was to into in today's sort of, you know, entertainment environment, a lot of the people, when they start putting money into things, whether it be a TV show, you know, everything becomes very mechanical. Now, everything has an algorithm. Oh, well, hey, you know, you say this script and don't deviate from the script. And I think it really takes away a lot of character, and it's more about like situations, if you know what I mean. So let's and I think with documentaries especially, you have to have those characters. I just wanted to touch on that topic, because it's so important anymore, you know, just finding films that have characters in them that you know people can relate to.

Cynthia Hill 39:11
Yeah, I think that's that's important. You know, you can have somebody telling you all day long that about this person's plight, or you can interview them about their their own plight, and they can tell you certain things, but if you're with them and you experience it with them, I think that's a whole other level of understanding. And that, to me, was, was what was important about, you know, making the guest worker film was that, you know, I did not understand it. You know, I drive by a field and I see people picking my produce, but I go to the grocery store and I buy it, you know, and I'm not really thinking about them when I'm I'm going to Whole Foods and and buying my $5 piece of lettuce you know, so it's was important for me to give them, not just the face, but to also tell part of that their story, and let them tell their own story, not, you know, through interview, but to witness it with them, need to be a true witness of of that, that experience. And I that's, that's the kind of filmmaking that I like. It's what I like to watch. You know, heavily interview driven kinds of films don't usually do it for me. Every now and then. I'll see when I'm like, Okay, I take it back. I'm okay with interviews, but typically that's not what I want. I have this thing where I say, show me. Don't tell me. You can tell me all day long, but if I see it and I feel it and I'm witnessing it, it's going to have so much more impact on me. And I feel like that's what it is for an audience, too.

Dave Bullis 41:05
Yeah, you're experiencing with it. I really like that. Because, you know, again, you know, when, when people try to to sort of force the sort of force the issue, or even make, you know, you know, these, these sit down interview car, you know, TV shows or movies, they're taking away the character. They're sort of just trying to sort of make everything happen, you know, along these sort of beats. And again, you know that that's why, yeah, you know,

Cynthia Hill 41:29
Tearing it down to, you know, just the that topic or that issue, and trying to hit that home and and I spend a lot more time kind of being around the bush, hoping that people see my subtle hints at what the issue is, you know. So I think that there's room for both kinds of storytelling. It just as I prefer the kind that doesn't meet you over the head, you know, I prefer the kind that takes me on a journey and lets me decide for myself. And that's, that's the kind of filmmaking I want to do is I want to take the viewer on a journey and let them decide for themselves. Obviously, I have a point of view, and so as I am laying out the scenes and showing the audience that the moments that I choose I am, you know, obviously have a certain point of view, that's that they're watching. But I do try to be very subtle in it, you know, even if it's issue oriented, and let the viewer decide for themselves, because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, half the time

Dave Bullis 42:35
You know, I noticed on the clock where we're we're starting to get a little pressed for time. So I wanted to make sure I asked you, What about one project, which is actually how we started talking, which is your, your actual, your eight part series on, on NASCAR motorsports. So I wanted to ask, you know, how did you get involved? You know, with the with the with the project?

Cynthia Hill 42:55
Well, I have this short list of southern things that I would love to one day be able to film, you know, it's I try to, to stay in my region, even if it's not necessarily southern like my filmmaking. I feel like my backyard is just as interesting as getting on a plane and going somewhere else. So also, I feel like I have permission to film once here too. You know, I don't feel like I'm an interloper and and going in and trying to tell somebody else's story. So, you know, I try to stay based here in the south, and so NASCAR has been on that list of things that I would love to do, and for no other reason, that it's something that I grew up with. It was very much a part of my family, my granddad was a huge Richard Petty fan, and so every Sunday, we're watching a race, whether we wanted to or not. And so I, you know, I wasn't a NASCAR fan, growing when I got when I became an adult, but it still fascinated me, and also how people from outside of the South perceived it, and perceived the fan base and the sport itself like it's not really a sport. And there's lots of things people say about stock car racing. And so if you're gonna, you know, I like to mire myself in stuff that has a bit of controversy, I feel like sometimes, and this was kind of one of those things, but I wasn't in it for the controversy. I just was wanting just to see that world from the inside. And we just had the opportunity to approach Hendrick Motorsports with the idea of coming in and doing, you know, an inside look at it. And they are really the the giants in the sport you know, they have driving for them, Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Jimmy Johnson, who just won the championship last year, Casey Kane, and also chase Elliot, who's Bill Elliot's son, and he was getting into jeff gordon's car post Jeff Gordon had just. Retired, and so we wanted to enter the world with Chase, because he was, he was new to the team, and he just turned 20, and we thought it would be a really interesting perspective starting the series with a newbie, and especially one with that kind of pedigree. And surprisingly, Hendrick agreed, and after the fact, I found out that they get pitched a lot and never say yes, so I feel really honored that they said yes, but I think it was because I'm from the south. My ideas of what I wanted to do and what I wanted to tell were not any kind of again, gotcha thing. I just wanted to just go in. I wanted to embed my team into their team and really see what it was like to be, you know, in NASCAR and, you know, race every weekend. So, I mean, that's what we did. We we filmed with them for six months, and we filmed with all the drivers, not just chase. They opened the doors and said, Hey, you want to film these other drivers too? And we're like, Oh, yeah. So it was, it was a, an amazing experience. You know, the unfortunate thing is, my ears are still ringing because it's so loud and but it's, it was. I hate this word, and I hate to even say it, but it was truly unprecedented. The access that they gave us, know they they allowed us inside their facilities. NASCAR allowed us the film at the race tracks with basically what we not really telling us, you know, don't go there. Don't go there. And there are a few places we couldn't go, but really, we had the access that I didn't know that we could have, and we had an amazing working relationship with NASCAR and ask our productions where we knew that we would be able to get access to the race footage. So we weren't always focused on trying to film the race, but we were, you know, we were turning we would focus on the teens so that we could really see what the inner workings are like, and when something happens on the track, what's the reaction of the team, and, you know, what's the build up to to the race? And so it, you know, the race. Races were important, but they just became just more of a dramatic narrative tool for me to be able to understand the pressure. So the outcome of the race was less important, because, you know, we're not doing race coverage, not sports coverage TV, we're really telling stories about people, and, you know, that's what we do. And so, you know, we focused on, you know, again, on the characters and those small moments. And I think what we were able to accomplish is pretty unique, especially for that sport. I don't think you ever see it really presented that way.

Dave Bullis 47:51
Yeah, I was going to ask too, if they actually got pitched a lot, because I can, I can imagine, the answer would have been Yes, you know, just because you know, whenever you're in that position, whenever you're like, the leader, or, you know, you're involved in the a level, you know, kind of like, you know, how in the NFL, every team just gets pitched unbelievably amount, you know, hey, do the you know, could we do a documentary? Hey, could we do this? You know, hey, could you help out this charity? So that's why, you know, I think you did have that unique sort of way to sort of get your foot in the door by saying, I'm from the south and, you know, and I'm sure they wanted to see your other two, your other documentaries, before they said, Yes, you know,

Cynthia Hill 48:31
Yeah. And it was really nice. We got to the meeting, and the head of the marketing team, he had already seen my last film that was on HBO, and was a huge fan of the television series that I direct called a chef's life. And so he already knew my style, and he saw how our team operated, and felt really comfortable with what we were presenting and the ideas that we came to the table and he, he, he knew that what I said when I was in that meeting was true. You know, that I was not, you know, I wasn't trying to get in to do another kind of story, because the body of work that we came in with showed what we were trying to do. And, you know, it did open those doors. And so it does prove that eventually things do get a little easier. Other things don't, but that door opening definitely was much easier than I had anticipated. And that was nice, you know, that that came at a time in my career where, you know, I've been making films for 20 years now, and so it's nice to finally say, hey, you know, it does work out sometimes,

Dave Bullis 49:48
Yeah, and I think, you know, you're it did get easier, because, you know, people can you start to build a portfolio, and you start to build a reputation, and I think, and that is key, you know, something I always say here on the podcast is your net worth, is your network, your network is your net worth. And basically, you know, you were able to open those doors because of your network, and it's all about, you know, being professional. You know, doing good work. You know, not being crazy. You know, not being you know, because sometimes, you know, people get their foot in the door and they shoot themselves in the foot. You know, it's almost comical, because a lot of filmmakers, you know, they get themselves in the in the door, and then they just start, you know, immediately, start making all these mistakes. And, you know, it just, it really compounds, you know. And that's why you really want to make sure. Because, I mean, now after you've done this, I mean, it's like, you know, hey, hey, Cynthia, what was your last project? Oh, hey, I work with Hendrik motor sports. And, you know, we did this and this and this. And, you know, I mean, that that's just, that's huge, you know, that's absolutely huge.

Cynthia Hill 50:54
We filmed with, with Dale Jr, who everybody told me that he would never wear wireless mic. And we, you know, sometimes he would agree, you know, so we spent really nice time with him. And you know that, to me, is is meaningful to be able to develop those kinds of relationships and and it is important, you know, the downside to being in North Carolina is that my network is not extensive. I joke that I have a lot of pig farmers in my network, which they're really important, and I appreciate them, but it's, um, you know, it's, it's difficult because we are here, but you know, the benefits are that I do have an extensive network here, And the folks here do trust do trust me and and trust the team that we have in place. And so when we show up, that does mean a lot,

Dave Bullis 51:49
Yeah, and you know, again, you you, you never know what door is going to open, you know. And again, I like how you mentioned, again, where you were, because, you know, every everything's different. Again, everything has changed, which sort of, you know, brings us back to full circle, which I was, which was what, you know, we open up the podcast with, you could be a filmmaker now, you know, across America, and it's, it's opened a lot of doors. Cynthia, I know we've actually just run out of time. So where can people find you out online, Cynthia?

Cynthia Hill 52:18
You mean me, or just my company name is Markay Media, m, a, r, k, a, y, media.com and the road to race day, which is the NASCAR series, was just released on the complex, next complex networks platform, go 90, and so it's currently streaming the next the last episode is premiering tomorrow, so all the episodes will be up after tomorrow. And my other films are somewhat harder to find private violence, which was the last film with HBO. That one I think you can find on Amazon and Hulu, and a chef's life is on PBS. Season Five is premiering in October, so that one's still going strong,

Dave Bullis 53:14
Yeah. So we got to talking Cynthia, and we ran out of time with because I was going to talk, I had notes to talk about, you know, all of your all of your work, and, you know, we just, you know, one of those things right out of time, but, but I'm going to link to everything in the show notes. Everyone at Dave bulls.com Twitter at Dave underscore Bullis, and I link to all of Cynthia social media as well so you could follow her and see all the really cool stuff that she's up to.

Cynthia Hill 53:40
Thanks, Dave. I really appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 53:43
Oh, my pleasure, Cynthia. And if you ever want to come back sometime, we can talk, you know, more about your next projects, and you know. And then the other projects we didn't get a chance to talk about, let me know, you know. And you know, I love to have you back on

Cynthia Hill 53:53
Happy to it's fun. It is kind of like therapy. And maybe just listen to that, because I, I, I, I have a tendency not to be PC, so maybe listen to the guest worker stuff, just to make sure I didn't say something too offensive. Because sometimes I say things that I don't know are offensive, and they become offensive without me knowing it so

Dave Bullis 54:17
Yeah, it's all good. Cynthia, everything's offensive nowadays.

Cynthia Hill 54:24
That's true, it can be, but, you know, I think it's like, for me, it's, it's, you know, I, I, we work really hard to be inclusive. And the team I have in place, you know, we've, we've built a diverse team, and we work with a lot of women too, and so we spend a lot of time trying to tell stories that have meaning, and beyond just you know the meaning of my demographic. So we try.

Dave Bullis 54:57
No, and I think you do very well. I. I honestly, and that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast. And again, I want to link to everything of yours in the show notes. And you know people can check out your work, and you know I want to see and obviously I hope you continue to move forward with this and and you continue to to build that filmography.

Cynthia Hill 55:17
Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope so, hopefully I won't burn out.

Dave Bullis 55:21
Don't go back to pharmacy. That's what I'm that's the message of this whole podcast, is, don't go back to pharmacy.

Cynthia Hill 55:26
I don't know if I can anymore. I lost my job. That's all right. I needed it. I needed that. Kick in the butt.

Dave Bullis 55:34
Yeah? Exactly, right. It's, it's like the old Roman army, when they got to a new country, they'd burn their boats.

Cynthia Hill 55:41
Yeah, this is it you gotta Yeah. There's no Yeah, yeah. We're swimming.

Dave Bullis 55:49
Cynthia. Cynthia Hill, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I do wish you the best of luck.

Cynthia Hill 55:55
Thank you. Thanks so much, Dave.

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BPS 426: Breaking the Rules: Crafting Powerful Films Without Hollywood Money with Shawn Whitney

July 3, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Sometimes, the fire of creativity is struck not by lightning but by the slow, smoldering ache of dissatisfaction. And in today’s soul-stirring conversation, we welcome Shawn Whitney, a filmmaker who found cinema not in the corridors of academia, but in the quiet rebellion of self-taught screenwriting and micro-budget filmmaking. Shawn Whitney is a screenwriter, director, and founder of Micro Budget Film Lab who empowers indie creators to tell powerful stories on shoestring budgets.

Our journey with Shawn begins not in childhood fantasies of movie stardom, but in the dense woods of Brechtian theater and the quiet study of old black-and-white films. His path wandered, as many worthwhile ones do, through rejection, basement solitude, and heartbreak—until something within him demanded not just expression but transmutation. Shawn didn’t study film in college. Instead, he emerged from the theater world and fell into filmmaking after a failed workshop production left him broke and dispirited. Yet that fall became his rise. As he said, “I just started writing screenplays and learning the craft in the quiet shadows.”

There’s something beautiful in learning the art of story not from glamorous sets or high-priced workshops but from the bones of failed experiments and the echoes of dialogue bouncing around your own mind. Shawn described his education not with fanfare but humility—referencing Sid Field, Blake Snyder, and the ever-controversial Save the Cat—tools that became his spiritual guides, not rigid masters. And with every script, he refined a method. Not the method, mind you. A method. “You just need a method. You can’t just be anarchy,” he mused.

But perhaps what struck me most was Shawn’s philosophy that screenwriting is not just structure—it’s an argument about what makes life meaningful. Films, he insists, must be animated not by market trends, but by inner turmoil, by the strange flickering passions of the human heart. “It can’t just be about chopping up zombies. Your characters must go through an inner transformation.” That idea—that a film is a living question—sets Shawn apart in a world often obsessed with following the formula instead of feeling the pulse.

Shawn’s micro-budget films—“A Brand New You” and “F*cking My Way Back Home”—aren’t just titles that stick. They are rebellious acts of filmmaking born from limited means and limitless creativity. His stories unfold not in sprawling CGI landscapes, but in human longing, funny sadness, and philosophical absurdity. One film follows a man trying to clone his dead wife in the living room. Another explores redemption from the passenger seat of a towed Cutlass Supreme. With a budget of $7,000 and a borrowed tow truck, Shawn pulled off scenes that feel bigger than most tentpole blockbusters.

But filmmaking, for Shawn, isn’t just about his own expression. Through Micro Budget Film Lab, he’s become a teacher, a mentor, and a kind of mad scientist in the alchemical lab of storytelling. His passion is not merely to direct, but to help others break free from the gatekeeping systems that keep fresh stories from being told. “We need a micro budget movement,” he declared, envisioning a cinematic rebellion where filmmakers use what they have to tell stories no one else dares to.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
My guest this week runs micro budget film lab. He has directed two micro budget features and is in pre production for a third with guest, Shawn Whitney. Hey Shawn, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Shawn Whitney 2:08
Thanks. Thanks very much for having me Dave. I really appreciate it.

Dave Bullis 2:10
Oh, you know, my pleasure, Shawn, you know, I've seen everything you've been doing with the micro budget film lab and all the great things that you're doing over there. But before I even, you know, we start talking about all the things you do there. I wanted to talk, you know, about your career and about, you know, getting started. So, you know, we're growing up. Shawn, did you always, you know, have this, you know, this hobby of film, or this love affair with film and and, you know, did you make films growing up as a kid?

Shawn Whitney 2:35
No, no. Short answer, no, no. I mean, I always was. I've thought of myself as a writer since I was probably 10 or nine years old. But, you know, there was no, we didn't have any video cameras or anything like that, like it just, we just didn't have them, so they wasn't really around. I watched a lot of old movies. You know, it was back in the days, first before cable and then cable and so, you know, we would get like, channel 29 from Buffalo, and we would watch, you know, bad movies, or not bad movies, but old movies from the 50s and 60s. But it wasn't really until much later that I decided to pursue film, actually.

Dave Bullis 3:16
So did you end up going to college for film?

Shawn Whitney 3:20
No, no, I so I went to I went to University in Toronto, at the York University, and I did a liberal arts degree in humanities, kind of cultural studies, and then I did a master's in interdisciplinary studies that was focused on writing for the theater. And I'd started a small theater company that was doing like Brechtian musical theater. And we did a bunch of really great productions. And, you know, I wrote stuff, and I was doing that, and then, but then I went, decided to make a turn towards film, really, in about the year 2003 I guess. And at that point, I just began writing, you know, I'd done, I tried to do, actually, a theater production, I did, like a workshop production, and it went really badly, and I lost a lot of money, and I was really depressed, so I kind of hit, hid in my basement for about three years, and just started writing screenplays and just sort of learning how to write screenplays on my own. And then, I guess, three or four years, and then I ended up getting accepted into the Canadian film center, which is kind of like the American Film Institute, Institute. And that was my kind of, you know, my formal, the formal, official part of my education was that residency there

Dave Bullis 4:35
You mentioned writing your own screenplays and sort of teaching yourself how to write screenplays. You know, that's sort of something I did a few years ago, you know. And I think that helps out a lot. And what I want to ask is, you know, was there any particular books or even scripts or even movies that you sort of use to sort of pick apart, you know, and how to, sort of teaching yourself how to write?

Shawn Whitney 4:57
Yeah, there was a few books. I mean, Sid Field, I think was maybe the first book screenplay that I that I read, and that kind of opened my eyes to, you know, structure and all that kind of stuff. And then I read another book by Epstein called crafty screenwriting, which was really good. And then the most recently I read, a few years ago now, I read save the cat by Blake Snyder, and that was, I know, it gets, it gets, you know, a lot of bad people go on about it now, because it has become kind of the dominant model in Hollywood, in many ways. But it's, I still think that it's a really powerful machinery that you can use, you can bend it to kind of more unconventional structures, but it was really useful for me in terms of creating a kind of method to approach the screenwriting process.

Dave Bullis 5:49
Yeah, I have noticed that save the cat has gotten a lot of flack. I mean, I think if you're at the top of any field and you know, I think save the cat has sort of gotten to the upper echelon now, because, I mean, well, Sid Field has passed, and so has the person who made say the cat has passed. But I mean, I still think that it's been able, it's been it's been sort of passed on through his through his program, and I think now, when you're at the top field, when you're at the top of any field, I think you're gonna get flack for a lot of things.

Shawn Whitney 6:20
Yeah, totally, I mean, and it's partly, it's because of the way that Hollywood approached the whole process of storytelling. I mean, it really is the kind of formula that's in save the cat is used constantly, like you can watch a movie and time, it's kind of just the same cat structure and and I think people get because of that, and because a lot of Hollywood movies are pretty, you know, they're pretty empty, sort of commercial properties that are really, you know, not about, they're not about art, they're about they're a product, right? And I think people confuse the power of the story structure with the vacancy of the content. And I think that's where a lot of that comes from. It's like, you know, Hollywood movies are kind of empty, or not all of them, but a lot of them are empty, and it's because they all follow this model. And I, and I think it's, it's a little bit of a misrepresentation,

Dave Bullis 7:10
Yeah, and, you know, I know you can't see this because it's a podcast, but I have a huge screenwriting book library right next to me, to my left, and I sort of did what you did, you know, I wanted to figure out, you know, screenwriting, the nuts and bolts and getting down to the absolute, you know, sort of atoms of it, and figure out, you know, what makes a great screenwriter, what makes a great screenplay. And I sort of just, you know, would buy these books piece by piece. Some of them you could buy, I mean, for pennies on the dollar and Amazon. Others, you know, they just came out, and they're still full price. But, you know, there's a lot. There are some that really speak to to me, and there's others that I read. And I'm just like, I don't know, maybe, maybe this is lost, because, you know, I'm sure it happened to you too, Sean, where you have people recommend books to you, like screenwriting books, for instance, and you read them, and you're just like, what was the big deal about this you know?

Shawn Whitney 7:59
Yeah, yeah, totally. And a lot of them end up, I don't know, after, after a while, if you read a few of them, it's like, okay, this is, I'm kind of reading the same thing again. And at a certain point, you need to just get a method that you're going to use and then apply it, and then learn from it and find it, find ways to advance upon it. You know, I don't think there's any absolutely perfect or the right method, exactly. But you just need a method. You can't just be It can't just be anarchy.

Dave Bullis 8:25
Yes, absolutely. I think a method is key, finding your routine also, which I guess, is another way saying method, but, you know, finding your routine and making sure, you know, okay, well, 11 o'clock today, or maybe a little earlier, or maybe I'm gonna get up at two, you know, an hour early today, and I'm just gonna write, you know, I'm just gonna write for, you know, 45 minutes to half an hour. And you and you're absolutely right, you know, finding that process is key, because, like you just said, when I would read some of these books, I would I felt like I was reading the same thing, same things, over and over again. And I'm just like, I didn't just read this book, like, with a different cover and my different author, but, I mean, but that's bound to happen. You know, once you start, you know, getting to a certain point, you're gonna start seeing all that same information, just basically, you know, used again or maybe presented in a different way.

Shawn Whitney 9:11
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, there's only so many ways, in a sense, to tell a story. And if you're telling a three act story, or a story that has a beginning, middle and end, anyway, there's only so many ways to do it. And, you know, the interesting thing because I read a lot of scripts in my development job, and I read tons of scripts, and what you see mostly is that is not, I mean, you do see scripts that come in that are kind of, you know, soulless machines. But mostly what you see from screenwriters who aren't established is that they just don't have the structure. They don't know how to tell a story that keeps moving forward. And you you really need that. And so to go back to what you're saying is so it feels repetitive on the one hand, and it is repetitive in a lot of ways, but it also is like people need to learn this, because otherwise they can't tell a story.

Dave Bullis 10:10
And you touched on something through Sean, you know, you said the that some of the scripts that come in are like a soulless machine, you know, I know you can't go into specifics, or, you know, anything like that, but is there anything, any sort of thing that that that writer might be doing wrong, whether it be structure, or is it because they don't have a voice that makes it sort of like that soulless machine?

Shawn Whitney 10:30
Well, what it is, is that people write to the market, and because, you know, people want to make a living, and so they think, Okay, well, you know, like, for a while, we were getting all these found footage scripts, for instance, which you know were the rage, and they would come in, and people would follow the beats, you know, would like, x would happen on page 12 and Y would happen on page 23 or whatever. But what was lacking in them was that they were just, you know, it's like, it's like watching a plumber fix your pipes. It's necessary work, you know, but it's not interesting. Besides, for you, because, you know, your toilets overflowing, but for most people, it's not going to be that, that interesting. And so what I find lacking is a kind of, some kind of universal, universality to it. So you need to have, for instance, your characters. It can't just be about, you know, chopping up zombies or aliens or whatever. They have to be going through an inner turmoil, because really, what stories are about is they're an argument, you know, about what makes the good life, and you're making an argument, and if you're not making an argument, and if it's not being felt through your character, then it just feels like watching a plumber fix a pipe or watching somebody build a house. It's kind of interesting to see the structure of it, but it's not emotionally moving.

Dave Bullis 11:41
Yeah, I just took a webinar. Was a free webinar, but by Doug Richardson, who did wrote, who wrote, Die Hard 2 and he actually was saying, you know, that whole thing about an argument, and his, his whole thing was, hey, structure is an argument. You know, how you structure your film should be an argument for your whole movie. And you know that actually really stuck with me. And it No, just great that you hear, I'm just hearing you, you know, say something similar about your characters and argument as well, which, again, is I agree with 100% as something I've learned with screenwriting is that and that, you know, you we, we sort of when we were making characters. I think sometimes screenwriters have a tendency to write themselves, just like you said. You know, we put ourselves as the main character, and I think that sort of ends up hurting us, because the main character ends up becoming almost like an A shell, and everybody else is sort of, you know, having all the having, sort of, you know, like the witty banter, or maybe they, they're actually the ones that are actually going through a transformation. And the main character just, sort of, you know, is just sort of there, going from, you know, basically just going basically just going through the motions,

Shawn Whitney 12:44
Yeah, yeah, totally. And, I mean, it can be you, but it has to be you in a universal way. It has to be universal, you you know, like you have to, you know, there's things about your life. You know, there was a film, a micro budget film that I talk about a lot called bell flower from a few years ago, think 2011 that was shot for like 17 grand, and it did really well. I think it went to Sundance at to Sundance. Actually, it went to Sundance. It got distribution with oscilloscope. It's a great movie, and it's about his breakup. So it's a very, in some ways, a personal film, but he took his breakup and he turned it into a kind of universal, crazy story about young male rage and representations of violence and stuff that's a lot of fun to watch and has has universal value to it, because he what he does is all the parts, the soul of it all fits together. So the characters are characters journey fits with the theme of the movie, and the theme of the movie fits with the visual styling of the movie, and with the visual elements in the movie. And that all fits with what's happening with the the secondary characters and so on. So it works together as a as a machine, but a machine in the good sense that machine in the sort of emotional, emotional sense that all the parts are firing, all the pistons are firing.

Dave Bullis 13:53
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It kind of reminds me also of sort of Mad Max, you know, Mad Max Fury road, I know what we're talking about, now, you know, with, because, with the main character, but a Mad Max. So he never really changes, you know, but, but that, again, is the whole point of Mad Max, is that he Max is never actually the main character name any of his movies, you know. He's just go, he's helping everybody else out as they're going on their adventures. And I think, but going into those even, well, that made me probably that may be probably starting the second one, but in road warrior. But even, even, you know, road warrior, then you have beyond thought of dome, and then you have the newest one, Ferrari road you kind of see that formula at work, and it actually works, like we were just saying, it actually works for that. But anywhere else, you kind of be like, Well, what the hell is going on here? You know, it's not complimenting itself, if you know what I mean?

Shawn Whitney 14:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that the model, the Mad Max model, is also the model for noir, you know, like noir fiction and noir films is about this cynical, scarred human in the world who is giving us an entry into the world to see the journey of other people and we become where the sort of cynical we're the sort of bring brought in to in the same. Way, in the same state as that person, and then we're learning through that process, the argument about that world and what's valuable, you know,

Dave Bullis 15:07
Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. Kind of reminds me of Chinatown in a way. You know, Jack Nicholson, you know, at the whole end, he was very, very sort of scarred, and by the end, you know, I don't know if he really changed, but, but the whole, but, the whole venture was absolutely amazing.

Shawn Whitney 15:26
No, absolutely

Dave Bullis 15:27
So, you know, as we talked more about, you know, your career, Sean, you know, you obviously knew you taught yourself how to write screenplays. And, you know, so where was it, where you actually started to sit down and actually you made your own film?

Shawn Whitney 15:41
So I had after, I actually, shortly before, I went to the film center. And then after I went to the film center, I made a few shorts, and kind of, you know, I'd read, I read a few things about, you know, how to shoot, not cross the line, you know, coverage, that kind of thing. And then I sort of shot some, some shorts that were, you know, from moderate to bad and but it was really fun, and I loved it. And I learned a lot as both as a filmmaker and as a writer, because I learned, okay, well, that doesn't work. You know that, you know, a block of dialog that long isn't gonna work, saying it this way isn't gonna work, like you just you you see it being played out. And so it's an extremely useful experience, even from the point of view of being a screenwriter. And then, you know, and then when I came out of Canadian film center, and, well, a bunch of stuff happened. I had a script options with, like, an Oscar nominated producer, and it all looked, you know, great. And, you know, I was counting the money and thinking my career was about to take off. How could things go wrong? And that was 2008 and then at the bottom fell out of the financial market, and in subsequently, all the money dried up for indie films, and Hollywood's reverted to just, you know, retreads and remakes and tent pole pictures. And so while I got a job out of that in development that I still have, I my career as a filmmaker and as a screenwriter kind of came to a halt, and so after a number of years of having done that, I just was, like, one day, sitting in my office with my wife, feeling frustrated because I was reading a script that I that I thought was kind of bad, but was, you know, was financed because it had some a list cast, and I turned to my wife, and I'm like, This is ridiculous, like we're helping, you know, she's a wedding photographer, so she helps people realize their dreams, in her way. And I was doing it with, you know, story editing, and I said, you know, why don't, why aren't we? Why are we just the bridesmaids, you know, why don't we make our movie? And and so we decided at that point, then we just started talking about a story. And then it happened,

Dave Bullis 17:42
Yeah, the the bottom fell out in 2008 for man, for so many people. I mean, I was so tragic. And, you know, I know other people as well who've had, who had things in development and 2008 hit. And, my God, I mean, and here we are in 2016 and we're still recovering from that here in America, but, but, yeah, you know, and the shocks were sort of felt well wide, but, you know, you you able to regain, you know your composure, you know, regain, you know your motivation, and you know, so, so what was, what the ended up did, your first movie ended up being.

Shawn Whitney 18:20
It ended up being, I mean, it's a con. It's like a sci fi comedy called a brand new you about a widower who can't get over the death of his wife, and so he moves into this house, and after trying to failing at committing suicide, he convinces his landlord and his roommate to help him try to clone her in the living room. Because his landlord, it turns out, is this disgraced biochemist, and so it's about him trying to kind of recreate this moment that is lost. But it's a comedy, so it's funny, but funny sad, I guess

Dave Bullis 18:50
So is that available to watch online or through VOD or anything?

Shawn Whitney 18:55
No, we're we got a sales agent, and we've been going through the hell that is known as deliverables. And we just sent off for the second time for you have to get a, you have to get a quality control report before your film, like we've done all the the rest of the stuff, I think, I hope to God, and then we needed to make this quality control report. And so it goes, you know, you send it in. Cost, you like, 1500 bucks for, you know, four passes to cover your video and all your your audio tracks, and they send you a report, and if there's any problems in there, you know, and it can be any kinds of thing, and then it comes back to you, and then you have to fix those, and then you have to send it back. So we got that back and send it to our audio editor and our editor, our picture editor and and so we've, we've just sent it off for the second QC report, and I'm hoping that it's good enough.

Dave Bullis 19:44
Yeah, those deliverables, Shawn, the more you know, I didn't know too much about deliverables to a few years ago, and then I found out all that is in that is involved with deliverables. And even when talking with, you know, my friend, Jason Brubaker at the stripper, you know, just getting involved with those deliverable deliverables, you end up it's like a like, you said, it's like, what did you call a living hell? I, I think that's pretty accurate.

Shawn Whitney 20:18
But yeah, yeah, it's totally brutal.

Dave Bullis 20:20
So, you know, so right after you finished your first movie, and again, you know, that was a micro budget film, and you know, you made your second film, which, by the way, I love the name of this, of this film, by the way, fucking my way back home, that is a very, a very good title, by the way. And also, it's very eye catching. So even if I didn't know what it was, even if I didn't know what it was about, I could just imagine what that what that is about, but, but, you know, so where was the impetus to make your second film? I mean, did you already have this script, you know, written while you did your first one, or did you sort of just, you know, have a lot of motivation to sort of make this script?

Shawn Whitney 21:00
No, we were, well, we'd, we'd done the kind of the festival thing with the first one, and gone, gone to a few festivals, and won some awards. And we were like, What are we gonna do next? And so we, you know, I had some other scripts that we wanted to do, but they were bigger. They were like, you know, at least $100,000 kind of thing. And, and we're just, we're not in a position to make $100,000 movie, unfortunately, at the moment. And so we, you know, my production partners, there's four of us in the company, and we said, we know, what are we going to do next? And I had this story that I developed with another writer years earlier that he and I were going to shoot together, a wonderful writer named Rhys Carruthers, and but it just never happened. We both kind of gotten busy with our own things. And so I spoke to him, and I said, Hey, dude, can I take our story and write it up as a script so we can shoot it? And he was like, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I then I wrote it up, and we started editing, you know, getting notes back and forth. And, you know, I don't know how many months later, eight months later, maybe nine months later. Then we shot the movie.

Dave Bullis 22:04
So when you shot the movie, did you have a slightly bigger budget than when, when? Then with your first movie?

Shawn Whitney 22:10
No, you know, the irony is, we learned a lot from the first movie. You know, we made mistakes that cost us money, and we got better at improv, improvising. And so the first film cost us, I think, 22,000 or something, and the second movie, we shot for 7000 but it's actually more complicated, and there's more locations, and we a lot of it takes place in a car going around the city. So we had to tow the car, because our driver, like he plays the driver in the in the film, is, is like, maybe the worst driver on the planet. So the idea of him acting while driving this like 1974 Supreme was was a horrifying thought. So we had to, like, tow the car around.

Dave Bullis 22:51
So when you had to tow the car around the I guess the biggest, then the biggest part of production budget, then, was obviously a tow truck, a driver in the tow truck, you obviously had to get, like, a, some kind of, I guess you had a route that you wanted to go, you know, again, I'm just, I'm just thinking with the producers hat right now, Shawn, what was,

Shawn Whitney 23:08
Yeah, yeah, no. Well, you know, we went, so our Plan A was okay. So Plan A was we thought, you know, we had a connection with the post production house, and maybe he could get us a deal with a, you know, rental house whites in Toronto. And he contacted them for us, and they got back, and they were like, oh, yeah, you can get a, you know, you know, a tow vehicle, but it's like, $10,000 a day, plus you need to get cops, right. You need to have off duty, you know, paid, paid duty officers. And we're like, well, it's more than our budget. So we tried U haul, and we did a taxi, we did a test shoot with a U haul trailer, pulling it around and so on. And that seemed like the way we were going to go, but that was going to be, I think, about 1000 bucks with insurance, and that still seemed high. So what we ended up doing was a guy who owns a cafe around the corner from my house had a tow truck and, well, he had a car. First of all, he had this Cutlass Supreme. And I was like, Hey, man, can I rent your car for the shoot? Your car is, like, this big, ugly beast, and it's a beautiful sky blue color, and I really want to use it, because it really looked good. And he was like, yeah, yeah, totally. And we told him we were going to tow it. And he was like, Oh, hey, do you want to you want to rent my, my, my pickup truck, like these little Toyota pickup truck, like, Yeah, sure. So we rented it off him for a few $100 and then we went on Craigslist, and we found somebody who rented, like a car tow trailer, and we rented it for two weeks for, I think, $300 so in total, you know, car tow vehicle and trailer was like, 800 bucks. 700 bucks.

Dave Bullis 24:43
Wow, that, you know, again, that's amazing how you know, just by just sort of putting on your producer hat, you can actually, you know, get that down further and further and further and again, I imagine also you're going to have insurance, because I could just imagine, you know, towing a car around. But. Yeah, so it was insurance included in that $800 or $900 cost?

Shawn Whitney 25:04
Yeah, we got it. We got production insurance, and that was more that was for the entire production. And I think it was about 900 bucks maybe to cover the whole thing. And it was a bit dodgy, like we told them. They were like, you know, we have this car, and we'll be towing it to locations and then putting it off the trailer and shooting it in locations. And so they, you know, if they found out we were shooting with people in the vehicle, towing it around, we probably wouldn't have been covered, so we would have had to evacuate everybody from the car if we got into accident. But luckily, we didn't. And there was no, there was no insurance claims were made.

Dave Bullis 25:38
Excellent. You know, it's always going every and whenever. You never have to make an insurance claim, right? So, yes. So now, Sean with sort of finishing the film, is it? Is it on VOD yet? Or are you putting that together right now?

Shawn Whitney 25:54
Yeah, we just got picture lock like last week, and so we've sent it off to the composer. We've sent it off to the audio mixer to begin that process, and we've sent it off to the colorist.

Dave Bullis 26:08
So now, now, so, so now that that picture is locked. Now, now, again, I'm cheating, because I have your whole info in front of me. I know you made a third movie, so we get a third movie that's actually in development right now, correct?

Shawn Whitney 26:23
Yes, yeah, yeah. There's a, we have a, we have a script that's written that's, I think, a second draft at this point that we're hoping to do a little, little higher budget, if we can raise the cash, or, I guess, you know, figure out the, whatever the equivalent is of, you know, a tow trailer for for our, our spaceship, because it all takes place inside a spaceship.

Dave Bullis 26:43
And that's called the century of redemption, right?

Shawn Whitney 26:46
Century of redemption, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 26:48
So obviously you're going to shoot that next year. And you know, again, I wish you the best with shooting that. And so what I wanted to ask about was obviously your micro budget film lab, you know, you know, you sort of started this, and what was sort of the impetus to actually start micro budget film lab?

Shawn Whitney 27:08
Well, when we shot the first film, I mean, finding information was, it was really dispersed, you know, we could find an article here, an article there, and get, you know, pull some tips here and there. But a lot of it was really learning on the fly, which added added stress to the whole process. So and, you know, we were borrowing money and, you know, figuring out how to finance it and all that stuff that we had to kind of build the machine from scratch, as it were. And so my thinking was that it would be great for because there are so many people out there who want to make a micro budget, or who budget or who want to make a feature and are just waiting. They're doing like I did, you know, they're waiting for years, and, you know, submitting to contests and spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on contests. And, you know, sometimes contests don't even send you the results and never mind notes. And I was like, you know, people need to have that resource, and so I want to be that resource, and I wanted it to be different than, you know, no film school, which is a great site, but as you know, it has a lot of gear focus. And I'm, you know, because of my background coming in from the point of view of story and from screenwriting, I was kind of more interested in the esthetics and the story construction side, and how to do things differently and how to create a kind of shared esthetic, like, I mean, I wrote a post a little while ago called about, you know, we need a micro budget movement, and I've been thinking about that a lot, and the need to, kind of for us as micro budget filmmakers, to move beyond simply, you know, atomized individuals all struggling to make our films. And I'm happy to help people out on that basis, just like the technical side of how to make a movie, but also, you know, where there have been successes in the past with people outside of the system. They've generally been coming from people who exist as a movement. You know, you look at dogma 95 or mumblecore, or the neorealists or the French New Wave, and they part of their marketing buzz and part of their power comes from this esthetic challenge to the dominant storytelling models and cinematic models. And so I wanted to kind of create a space where that kind of could gestate, and that's what, that's kind of where the name lab came from. It was like a laboratory for for film movements, we can

Dave Bullis 29:22
We can do a lot of like experimentation, right? Yeah, yeah, like, sort of mixing chemicals, like a mad scientist,

Shawn Whitney 29:28
Yeah, yeah, making drugs.

Dave Bullis 29:31
But we know, but experimentation film, I think that's what allows, you know, with making micro budgets, and you know, even, even when I, you know, made my own student film, it allowed for more experimentation. Because obviously, number one, we had no clue what the hell we were doing. And I mean, me personally, I had no clue what I was doing when I was making my student film. Two, the budget was like the change, you know, people have in their pockets. And three, I had no weird answer to so any, any weird, wacky thing we did, you know, is it funny? Okay, let's put it. Let's put it in there. But, you know, with micro budgets, you know, you know this is it's always, you know, encouraged to for experimentation. Because, I mean, you know, Sean, if you had a couple million dollar budget, and you had people are reporting to every day, you know, you try to do something out of the norm, and they're gonna say, What the fuck are you doing?

Shawn Whitney 30:31
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, yeah. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of there's a lot at stake. When you've got a million or 10 million or $100 million you know, they they want you to do what works and what works is what worked last year or the year before, and so they just want to repeat the same thing, because it's a formula that makes money. But that, that formula that works for Hollywood for ten million movies or $100 million movies doesn't work for micro budgets, because they just look like cheap knockoffs, right? Yeah, and they look like, and they look like, they look like cheap knockoffs. But more than that, they ex all the flaws of Hollywood can be are kind of hidden by the the the money that's poured into the great effects and the great sound and the great light, and, you know, these awesome actors who are loved and so people forgive them, you know, any errors or whatever, all that stuff allows Hollywood to kind of smooth out the problems in their in their in their storytelling, and, you know, the the conventionality of their their cinematics, technique or whatever, you don't have that in a micro budget. So you you get none of the good of Hollywood, of the all that that money, and you get all of the bad when you're trying to just replicate a Hollywood formula film on like, you know what? They see their budget for their coffee cups.

Dave Bullis 31:45
So true. Shawn, you know? And again, yeah, you know, if you try, yeah, you're right. If you try to, try to emulate that, you're just going to end up, you know, shooting yourself in the face. And that's something that I found as well, you know, I tried to emulate, uh, different action movies, so, you know, with my second and third student films. And I'm like, holy crap. I don't have the time, the budget, the resources to do all this stuff, so I can't make, you know, a whole scene about gunplay, or, you know, I can't blow up this whole building even with, you know, Red Giant effects, you know. And it sort of reminds me also of there was this panel of discussion was watching on TCM, and one of the guys who host TCM said he actually loved the era of the 50s and 60s with movie making, because they didn't have a budget to blow up buildings or anything, so they had to focus on the story. And to me, that's where we are again is, I think, a hallmark of a filmmaker nowadays is you have to make a micro budget film set in one to three locations, very minimal, and the story and the concept have to be, what, what is your main selling point of this whole thing?

Shawn Whitney 32:50
Yeah, I mean, I don't know about, you know, I there's some dog move films that I really love, like celebration I really love. And, you know, they had their bow of chastity, or whatever that was very, very strict, and most of them ended up breaking it. And I don't know about all of the rules in terms of restrictions about what you can and can't do, because there's, you know, there's a film monsters by Gareth Edwards, who went on to do Godzilla. And Godzilla apparently, sucks. I've never seen it, but, you know, they've got bad reviews and so on. And monsters did really well. And monsters did really well, I think because kind of move what you're you're saying about story, because it was a, it was a really fresh not to monster movie. But it's not about the monsters. The monsters are just the backdrop to this road movie and this relationship between these two people in a structure that's not, it's it's much more open and and alive than than really tight, tightly bound Hollywood structures where, you know, there's a monster and they kill people one at a time in the woods and so on. And it wasn't that. And so he used, you know, there's a lot of effects in that, but he shot it for like, 15,000 bucks. And then he just happens to be this, you know, special effects wizard who has worked for years for the BBC, doing, you know, crazy compositing and all this incredible stuff. So he had those, he had that talent. And so, you know, kudos to him to bring that talent. But then, you know, where he couldn't, he couldn't do the kind of practical effects that that you can do with Hollywood. So his his shooting was, was this story, this really simple, beautiful, little story about this relationship between these people, and that's what gave the movie its power. The the monsters was, you know, sometimes kind of was neat or whatever, but that's, you know, when he got to Godzilla, then he could, then he didn't have to think about story so much. And so he ended up with a much weaker picture than monsters, which was made for, again, like the coffee cup budget for Godzilla. And, you know, I don't know what he's doing next, but that, that point that you make about story being so important and breaking with the the conventions of what Hollywood does with stories, and really allowing yourself to, you know, to take advantage of the freedom that you have as a as a filmmaker, because you don't have that 100 million dollar weight hanging over your head that you have to recoup,

Dave Bullis 34:58
Yeah, and it's, I was always. Reading something about this as well, where a lot of studios now are looking at, you know, the the micro budget film, the micro budget film world, the independent film world. And they're taking directors who maybe made a movie for a million or less, and all of a sudden they're make, giving them all this, you know, all this money to sort of make these, these franchises. For instance, Josh Trank with Fantastic Four prior to that, he made Chronicle for, I think, what, $3 million and, you know, I've seen stuff like that. And I think also, I don't know how well that's transferred over, though, I think that I don't know if the studios are rushing because they're so desperate for a hit to sort of prop up the other properties. Or if maybe, you know, these, these independent directors, maybe aren't there yet. If you know what I mean?

Shawn Whitney 35:45
I think it's more, I mean, they're trying to I think there's two things. I think that often, as as artists, often we don't know what makes us special. Or, you know, our artists, artistic production special. You know, we're not super self critical all the time, and so we don't know how to necessarily replicate it. And when we're put in a new situation where suddenly you've got 10 or 100 or whatever million dollars you're you're in a new situation. And so you're not you have, you know, before there was all kinds of pressures on you that forced you to be the kind of artist that you were, and now there's different pressures on you that are changing you in a different direction. So there's, there's, there's that, but there's also Hollywood is, isn't interested in what is magical about the really small budget movies. What they're interested in is the buzz and they are the cache and the, you know, the edginess of them, but they, those are just words for them, and they don't really know how to capture because, again, they're they're thinking about, it's 100 million bucks that they just invest in. Just invested, and they need to recoup that. And so they need to take all the edges off, because you want to appeal to, you know, you know, it's like I had a meeting with a sales agent on a completely different project A while back, and the first question they asked me about the project was, who's your white male lead? And it was sort of eye opening to me, you know? And this guy was probably a nice guy, whatever. And whatever, and, you know, probably not a racist, but he, he is speaking about how the market, the superstitions of the market, conceive of it, because they're like, well, black guys and women and, you know, lesbians and gays don't sell in China or they don't sell in Africa. So we need somebody who's like the universal icon, or avatar for money making, and that is the white male dude between the ages of 35 and 50. And so that's the kind of the way that they think about it. And so even when you get an edgy director up there, you know, like Gareth Edwards doing Godzilla, now they're trying to fit it into the money making mold that they know, and it has to fit into that. And so even, you know, you know, you go into, it's like the old joke, right? Oh, I joined the government to change it from within. And then instead of changing the system, the system changes you and I think that's what happens,

Dave Bullis 37:56
Yeah, it's, it's very true. And you know, you know, as we were talking about, you know, budgets. You know you have currently, you know, micro budget, you know, film lab, fun competition, which I think is amazing. So could you go into a little detail about that?

Shawn Whitney 38:11
Yeah, you know, I was, what I wanted to do was to create a screenwriting coaching program. Because, I think often people, you know, because there is so much emphasis on gear, because gear has become so cheap and made it so possible to make micro budget films now, whether it's camera gear or sound gear or whatever, and people get so hung up on gear, and they become gear heads. And, you know, people talking about, oh, the latest RED camera and black magic. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they and the scripts I read are, and, you know, I read about 150 scripts a year, like, I've read well over 1000 scripts in the last eight years, and I'm telling you, most of them are, are very weak and not developed. And it's kind of part of my my argument to my my community, is you need to develop your script. So I was like, How can I motivate people to develop good, you know, edgy, fresh scripts, and get them to focus on that so that they can make some great pictures and, like, really go deep in terms of the stories that exist inside themselves. So I thought, well, I'm going to do a screenwriting thing, but how can I get people interested? So I decided to come up with this screenwriting coaching intensive that would last over a period of three months, and I would work with a, you know, a relatively small group of people to go through each stage of the screenwriting process, from how to come up with a story for a micro budget, how to create a log line, how to create a story structure, developing characters, theme, all that stuff, right through to revising, how to revise your script with a micro budget in mind, and then have this and provide feedback the whole time, and then at the end, have this potential award. So that you know, of the first 10 scripts that are submitted at the end of this process, I would give like a full story edit of their scripts, which is what I do professionally. And I would, you know, meet with them over Skype. And then the best script of those 10 I would give them an, you know, I would invest $2,500 into making their movie. And so that's kind of how it was born.

Dave Bullis 40:19
And I also, like, you're doing the video question and answer section, because I imagine, as soon as you announced the competition, this flurry of questions came in. And I'm sure, and it's a great idea, by the way that you're doing it through video, because video is, you know, it's always, obviously, it's a great promotional tool. And I think also a lot of times, people, more, especially filmmakers, more adapt to watching a video tutorial or explanation, if you will, than just, you know, reading sort of like a blog post,

Shawn Whitney 40:51
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I try to mix it up a little bit, and do do a bit of both, but yeah, and it's kind of nice to do, you know, like with the FAQs that I've done, I can just, you know, I get tons of you know, questions, and I, you know, went through them and found some of the most common ones. And then I could just go up on my roof. You know, there's a terrace in our apartment, so I went up on the terrace and and just sat there with my coffee. And, you know, could just talk into, you know, my selfie stick that I put an elastic band on to hold it to a chair, and I could just talk to it and answer the question, like, like, we're sitting down having a coffee.

Dave Bullis 41:27
Yeah, it did feel that way as well. And so obviously, just to sort of answer a few of those questions, I know you already answered them, but just, you know, for, obviously, for the listeners, you know, like, I guess the one would be, you know, who actually owns the script? At the end of all this,

Shawn Whitney 41:43
The writer slash filmmaker owns the script. The only deal is for the money. The only conditions, I guess, is that it's an investment. So there'll be an investors contract, and if the film makes money, then you have to pay back. You have to pay back the money, you know, and which seems reasonable. And I want people to take some responsibility for the process of, you know, their their contributors, to their to their film. And then that money, it won't come back to me. I'll put it into another fund so that I can grow a fund to ultimately supply, you know, help other, other people in the same, in the same corner sort of way. And then the second thing is that the money will be released on the first day of principal photography. So you actually don't just write a script and get the money. You actually have to go into the proper pre production. And I'll work with people through the pre production process to help them get the show on the road and on the first day of principal photography, that cash will be released from them from escrow.

Dave Bullis 42:39
And I think that's an amazing idea, Shawn and so, for So, for people listening, who might be interested in work, where could they enter, you know, this fun competition?

Shawn Whitney 42:49
Well, it hasn't. The doors haven't opened yet. I've been taking because I got tons of feedback from people and what they felt should be in the program and so on. And so I'm going to open the doors to that. And as I say, it's not, it's not going to be to tons of people, because, because I'm giving feedback, I can only deal with so many people before I would, you know, have to start taking amphetamines and stay up all night. So that'll happen on not this coming Monday, but the following Tuesday. So a week Tuesday, I'll open the doors on that.

Dave Bullis 43:24
And is that for people just in Canada, or people in the US and UK?

Shawn Whitney 43:30
It's people internationally. You know, one of the cool things, you know, I've been promoting the Facebook page and the website and so on through Facebook, which is, you know, in terms of, you know, micro budget film marketing. Facebook is actually has a really user friendly, very powerful interface. But I've been, I was marketing, and I was marketing it primarily to the United States and Canada, because that's, you know, where I'm from. And by accident, I think I selected worldwide. And so it ended up promoting this thing, one of these posts out internationally, and I started getting, I'm like, why am I getting all these people with names, like Indian names? It was like, all of a sudden, like, literally, like, dozens of people contacting me from from India. And I realized I'd made this mistake. And it was awesome, because it's, I'm meeting these filmmakers from India. Like, I just interviewed a filmmaker last week, who did a micro budget film called D major, which is a beautiful film, and has gotten, is getting looks like it's getting distribution on the India's version of Netflix, and it's got him, you know, a producer is coming on board for his next film anyway. And it was a fascinating interview, just to hear how, in Kolkata, he made a movie for $3,000 and how they did it. And, you know, they didn't have a slider, so they put a camera on the sweater, and they pulled it across the table and this kind of stuff. But anyway, that's a long detour to say that the program is open internationally.

Dave Bullis 44:50
The reason I ask is because obviously America is my US is my biggest market, followed by the UK, followed by China, then Australia. Then Canada. So I just obviously, just wanted to make sure, yeah.

Shawn Whitney 45:05
So yeah, Chinese filmmakers are more than welcome as well, obviously, as Americans and Brits.

Dave Bullis 45:12
Excellent. And I was shocked, as everyone else, when I heard that China was my third biggest market. I looked at my numbers, I'm like, wow. Okay, but bigger bigger than, Yeah, seriously, who knew bigger than, bigger than the Australia and Canada. Wow. And, you know, So Sean, you know, I know we touched on this briefly, but, you know, sort of, you know, in closing, I wanted to ask, you know, what is there anything else that you're working on that we should know about?

Shawn Whitney 45:41
Well, I mean, in terms of my film, it's, it's the, you know, when you mentioned century of redemption, which is a space kind of, there's a sci fi, but all takes place in one location, though a fairly elaborate location. And then, I mean, I am on, I'm on a, I'm a senior programmer at the Victoria Texas indie film festival, which is a wonderful film festival just outside of Houston and and, I mean, I'm working on stuff all the time with this company I work for in Canada media biz, and I've been with them as an executive story consultant for about eight years, doing both story editing and also developing original content. So I have, I have some TV series that are in development that I'm pretty stoked about, and hoping something happens with them, but, you know, I'm at the point now, you know, if you've been in the film industry anytime at all, you know, you know, producers come to you and they're like, super excited about your project, and you get all excited and it's gonna happen, and then, then they don't happen. And so I'm, I'm, I still retain a small glimmer of hope in my heart, but part of me is always like, yeah, you know, I can't get, I can't get excited about maybe the mainstream stuff any longer, because it just so hard. It's so hard to get stuff off the ground. Things crash and burn all the time.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. Sean, I just was having this conversation the other day. It is so hard to get things without with, you know, even a pretty sizable budget off the ground, you know. And people who listen to this podcast on a frequent basis know that I talk about that a lot. I talk about my own projects and things that have just crashed and burned, and things that never really got off, and things that got off and still had a lot of problems on takeoff, but, but so, you know, in closing, Sean, is there anything we didn't talk about that maybe wanted to discuss, or any sort of final thoughts to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation.

Well, I think the main thing, and the main inspiration from micro budget film lab is, you know, following on from what we were just saying about everything's crashing and burning. And, you know, I looked up was reading some stuff on the the spec screenplay market recently, and the, something like 100,000 scripts are registered every year with the Writers Guild of America, and this year, less than 100 were purchased by the studios and the indie majors. And it can look really depressing, and you can sit around sending query letters forever, and it's just important that people know that you don't have to do that, and that there you can make a great movie, you know. And there are some awesome movies people, I think, forget, you know, the French New Wave breathless was a micro budget. It was under $100,000 and you know, some of these great movies for lovers, only made by the Polish brothers, was shot for like, zero and made $500,000 and but more than that, it was, you know, they made a really cool romantic movie. And so you can make really good stuff for not, not a lot of money. And so you shouldn't feel like you have to wait around for some benevolent producer to sort of land in your lap and do it for you, or some dentist with, you know, more money than than he knows what to do with, to invest in your film. You can, you can do it with, with a relatively small amount of money.

Dave Bullis 48:39
Yeah, you know that that's something I've been talking to Shawn about, you know, in a lot of my intros, about talking about this whole, you know, don't wait around, you know, figure out what you have at your disposal location wise. You know, what I call the resource list. You know, locations, actors and like, sort of like props. So if you can make those lists, and you can sort of brainstorm and sort of reverse engineer a script, because that way you're not, you know, if I, if I know my, my uncle owns an abandoned house somewhere. How could I use that for a film, you know? Or even if I use my own living room? I had a friend of mine who shot a film of his in his own living room, and he later regretted it, but because he wanted to do all this blood stuff, and he did it all, but then he said, Look, that smell got in the house. And so if you So, there's a tip, you're gonna use blood a lot, you know, a lot of blood. Maybe not. Don't do that in your own living room. But, yeah, but yeah, you know. And I think again, you know, Jason Brubaker calls it backyard Indy. I think again, this is going to be the Hallmark Sean, where you have to be able to sort of make a film in a very minimal location, with with very minimal locations, actors, props and beat and be able to to tell the best story you can. And I think that's going to sort of be like the Hallmark now, with how you know, you can sort of, you know, build your career from that

Shawn Whitney 49:56
Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. And I think that, you know, make a list of your resources is really important, and extend that list, not just to, you know, cool stuff that you have lying around and cool locations that you have, but also to your skills and the skills and the skills of people around you know, if you're like Gareth Edwards and you can do great compositing and great, you know, visual, you know, VFX on your computer, that's a resource also. Or if you can, you know, blackmail your brother in law to do it for you, whatever it happens to be, that's, that's a resource that you should, you should, you know, you should make the movie that you can, not the movie that you want, because it's, you know, what you've been told is the right kind of movie. Yeah

Dave Bullis 50:44
I definitely agree. So Shawn, where can people find you out online?

Shawn Whitney 50:48
They can go to our Facebook page. They can just, I'm sure, search on Facebook to micro budget film lab, or our website is microbudgetfilmlab.com and they can find us there.

Dave Bullis 51:01
Are you on Twitter or Facebook? Well, I'm sorry you already said Facebook. So you're on Twitter or anything else.

Shawn Whitney 51:06
I'm on Twitter. A little bit Twitter I've never really gotten into we do. I do have a YouTube channel that I'm slowly adding material to, but those the primary locations at this point are Facebook and the website.

Dave Bullis 51:22
Shawn Whitney, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, sir.

Shawn Whitney 51:26
Thank you very much for having me. It's been great talking to you.

Dave Bullis 51:28
Oh, it's been great talking to you as well. And I wish the best of luck with everything.

Shawn Whitney 51:32
Thank you. You too. Good luck in China.

Dave Bullis 51:37
Thank you very much, Shawn. I'll talk to you soon, buddy.

Shawn Whitney 51:40
Okay, take care.

Dave Bullis 51:40
Bye! Bye!

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BPS 425: The Power of the Cut: Storytelling Secrets from Michael Trent

June 26, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

A film editor’s job is much like the work of a sculptor. You take a massive block of material—raw footage—and with a series of delicate, precise cuts, you shape it into something cohesive, something meaningful. In today’s episode, we welcome Michael Trent, a master of cinematic storytelling who has spent his career assembling some of Hollywood’s most unforgettable films. From the war-torn beaches of Saving Private Ryan to the eerie corridors of The Hatred, his work is the unseen hand that guides an audience’s emotions, turning chaos into art.

For Michael Trent, the journey into the editing room began long before he ever set foot in Hollywood. His father, a sound editor in England, introduced him to the craft at an early age. “I was using a Moviola by the time I was ten,” he recalls, describing the tactile magic of celluloid film. But talent alone wasn’t enough to break into the industry—his leap from England to Hollywood in 1994 was an act of faith, a cold call to the right person at the right time, proving that the universe often conspires in favor of those who dare.

Editing is not merely about cutting and pasting scenes together. It is about rhythm, about knowing when to hold a shot and when to move on. It is the balance between subtlety and impact, between quiet tension and explosive release. “I think a lot of editors cut too much,” Michael Trent shares. “You have to feel the emotion of a scene and let it breathe.” His work on The Hatred is a testament to this philosophy, particularly in its ability to sustain suspense, making audiences feel the presence of something sinister lurking just beyond the frame.

One of the most fascinating aspects of his career was working alongside Steven Spielberg. Editing Saving Private Ryan meant moving between locations, from an Irish field to an aerospace museum in England, adapting to whatever environment was necessary. But beyond the logistics, Spielberg’s ability to visualize an edit in his head was what amazed Michael Trent the most. “He called in from Japan with an edit suggestion, and when we made the change, it worked perfectly. It was as if he had a video camera inside his mind.”

Horror editing, in particular, demands a unique approach. Timing becomes everything—not just in the obvious jump scares, but in the slow-building unease that keeps an audience gripping their seats. A shadow lingering a second too long, a door creaking open just slightly out of sync—these are the choices that make a horror film work. “There’s a scene in The Hatred where Alice walks toward the cellar,” Michael Trent explains. “We held the shot longer than usual, just to build that sense of dread.”

To be an editor is to be both an artist and a storyteller, sculpting not with clay or paint, but with time itself. The true test of an editor’s skill lies not in what they add, but in what they take away. Sometimes, entire scenes—ones that took days to shoot—must be discarded for the sake of pacing and narrative flow. “You have to be ruthless,” Michael Trent says. “If it doesn’t serve the story, it has to go.”

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:29
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Michael Trent 1:35
Well, initially, it's a family involvement. I mean, my father was a sound editor in England. He's now retired, so editing has been something that I grew up with, going to work with my dad. I've even got pictures of me back in the late 1970s with with single single stripe and film in my hands. So it was really my father that got me involved. But I also did go to a film school in England, a very small, relatively unknown one, but it was, it was still a film course that I did in England, but essentially it was a family connection.

Dave Bullis 2:13
So, so you were basically born into it. So it was almost like was in your blood to get into the film industry

Michael Trent 2:20
In lots of ways. Yeah. I mean, it really was. It was something that we grew up with on a, on a, you know, really a day to day basis.

Dave Bullis 2:28
So let me ask you, this, is there a difference, or of any kind, whether major or minor, between the the sort of the English film industry and the American film industry?

Michael Trent 2:41
If there is, I'm not sure that I'm really aware of it. When I was in England, I worked on lots of American films anyway, or at least what they were financed from the United States. So I couldn't really tell the difference. I mean, there's certainly larger budgets in the United States, and I did work on some English films that were over smaller budgets. But no, as far as the, as far as my work experience is concerned, that there wasn't really a difference, or isn't really a difference.

Dave Bullis 3:16
So, so when did you first, you know, decide, I mean, when you were editing, actually, let me ask you this, when you were, when you're going back into editing, and you were actually, you know, as you were sort of born into this, did you have, like, a movie, Ola, at home, or anything else, where you were just sort of cutting your own films together, or maybe even a Super Eight camera?

Michael Trent 3:31
Well, no, we didn't have a movie Ola, though they were quite big, big machines, but I did get used to using a movie Ola from the age of about, I would say, 10 years old. My father would bring us into work and and I would get to use the machinery and that and and steam Becks and flatbed chems. But we didn't have any equipment at home. No.

Dave Bullis 3:57
So, Michael, when did you make the trip then, from from England to over here to America

Michael Trent 4:03
In 1994

Dave Bullis 4:05
So when you came over, did you already have like, a few gigs lined up and like movies to edit?

Michael Trent 4:11
No, no, not at all. I was on a movie that started in England, and it was a, it was a picture called we're back a dinosaur story. And I was a sound assistant on that movie, and we were mixing at Twickenham studios in England, and the executive producer on the movie was Steven Spielberg, and he saw the mix from Twickenham and wanted some changes, and decided that it would be better to bring the movie from England to the United States to do the final mix at Universal. Actually, we ended up at Todd ao. But actually, it's the other way around. We ended up at Universal. That's how I initially came here. Yeah, that was all in that was in 1990 Three. And then I met a girl, in fact, on that movie, and then went back to England. In the meantime, we did the long distance relationship thing. And then I moved here completely in September of 94 but at that time, I had no gigs lined up when I arrived here, I really cold called British editors that I'd known in England, about five of them, and luckily for me, one of them came back, actually, with a job offer. So finding work was initially was was as a relatively easy for me, just because this, this particular editor picked me up and gave me a job.

Dave Bullis 5:46
So at that point he knew you, so you didn't have to, like, show him a real or anything, right? He so he actually knew you from before.

Michael Trent 5:53
Yeah, I knew I knew him from England, and he was British editor that would worked in England, and then was working here. He was working on a picture, picture called Rob Roy for Michael Caine Jones. The editor was Peter hones. And I say I knew him from England, and he was one of the people I called, and he just happened to have an opening at that particular time.

Dave Bullis 6:13
So just to sort of follow up on that question, and just to sort of you know if you're ever going, because I actually have some friends of mine who've actually gone from country to country, to country. I think that's a really incredible feat. Because if you go to a another, even if you're in England, let's say, and you go from maybe Manchester to London, you know, you're depending upon the size of the network you might have, you know, no nobody you know, have to actually hit your foot in the door through reels. You know, you're basically starting over from scratch, you know, and then going from a different country to another country. I mean, you really either have to a have a deep network, or you have to be able to just sort of, you know, get your foot in the door to a lot of places. And I actually know a couple of people, Michael, who actually moving from, like, different places, like Australia to England, because they want to actually get into the into the British film industry. Film industry. So it's just kind of, I always kind of find it, you know, fascinating, because just to be able to do that, either have to one of the, one of those two things, have a deep network, or be able to just knock on 10,000 doors to get one, yes,

Michael Trent 7:14
Yeah. Well, that, that's right. I mean, you know, when I look back on it, it was a crazy thing to do, but I was young at the time, and it it didn't feel scary at the time. It was just something I wanted to do, and for some reason, I felt that it would work out, and to one extent or another, it has. So I feel very lucky,

Dave Bullis 7:38
You know, don't you and you touched on something too. Don't you feel when you're younger? Maybe, you know, when you're first starting out in film, anything's possible, you know, like, anything you don't mean, like you could, it just feels that everything's just gonna come together, where you're in a project, or what have you just, Yo, you know what I you know, damn, the people who naysayers and I don't have a lot of budget, I don't have a lot of budget. I don't have a lot of budget. I don't have a lot of, you know, whatever, but we're just gonna go do something. You know what I mean? Because I mean honestly, like, I'm 32 right now, and when I was first starting out, I would actually go out and shoot a hell of a lot more than I do now. You know what has a similar effect happened to you?

Michael Trent 8:17
I think that it was definitely my experience was I didn't really consider the possibility of failing, and that wasn't any kind of not meant in an arrogant way. It's just that I just felt that it would work out. It was something that I really wanted to do to move to the United States and work in film editing, and it was just something that I felt would work out. And I wasn't. I wasn't scared about it, as I say, probably foolishly looking back, but I felt it was, it was just something that would, would just happen. There is definitely a sort of a fatalist element to it. I guess I just didn't consider what would happen if I failed.

Dave Bullis 9:09
Yeah, you take quitting and failing off the table, right? And basically you're like, you don't give yourself a choice. You just say, say to yourself, listen, this is the, you know, I have one option, and this is it. I have to do, go do this.

Michael Trent 9:22
This is what we're doing. That's, that's basically, was, this is what I'm doing, yeah, and there was no considering anything else. So it was just, I mean, there's been periods of unemployment in the interim where things have not, you know, always been easy. But initially, the somebody was looking after me for sure, and it was Peter hones. There's no doubt about that.

Dave Bullis 9:56
So after that one editing job that we were just discussing after that. Was over. You know, what did you do to go out and to try to find, like, more assignments and more movies

Michael Trent 10:06
After, after Rob Roy, yes, yeah, I was actually Peter hones had another movie which we went straight on to, so I didn't have to do any knocking on doors. We went straight, almost straight, onto a movie called Eye for an eye that John Schlesinger directed, and again, he picked me up as an assistant editor on that movie. So we all moved on as a crew. It wasn't immediate, but it was within a within a month or two. So we all moved on as a crew.

Dave Bullis 10:40
So and then, then, basically, did you keep like moving along with Peter as you, as you from project to project,

Michael Trent 10:46
We did. We did Rob Roy, I for an eye, then we did, I think, then the the next one we did was LA Confidential in in 1996 so those, actually, those three movies that I moved along with Peter. He hired me on three, three movies, and then I went elsewhere after that.

Dave Bullis 11:10
So after you went, you know, I actually am looking at your IMDB right now, and I have to ask, you know, you were the assistant editor on Saving Private Ryan, you know, getting to work with Spielberg and seeing some of you know of the footage they first shot and everything like that. You know, what was it like to actually work on Saving Private Ryan?

Michael Trent 11:28
Oh, well, that was. It was an incredible experience from lots of points of view. First of all, we knew, I'd read the script, so I knew it was going to be an amazing script, an amazing movie, but from a personal point of view, it was an amazing experience. We went from I'd worked on Amistad before that, and we went straight into Saving Private Ryan, but from say, a personal experience point of view, we went from here to Ireland. Took all the equipment with us, and we were editing in a field in Ireland. And then that was for the first three weeks of the for the shooting the opening sequence on the beaches. And then after three weeks, we moved to Hatfield in England, to a facility there, which was an old Aerospace Museum, and the set was built on the on the airfield. So, I mean, everything about that movie was amazing at the time, and we knew it at the time, and we were very excited to work, work on the show.

Dave Bullis 12:36
Did you ever get to actually meet Steven at any point?

Michael Trent 12:40
Yeah, many times. I mean, he would come to editing, usually at lunchtime, and we would be ready for him. We knew it was all set up beforehand. So yeah, I'd be in the room with Spielberg, and he'd be running on the Chem and selecting dailies. So I met him on many occasions. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 12:57
And I mean that obviously one of the most influential directors of all time. I mean, it was just, you know, and again, I the reason I bring that up is because of that he is just, you know, one of the most influential directors of all time. And you work with them afterwards on AI, which is a interesting project I wanted to ask about too. But so, so what was some of the things you took away from working with Spielberg? Was there anything he told you? Was there anything he told you, anything that, maybe you know, that he said that you just sort of like, oh, you know, that's, uh, you know, you know, when you work with people at that level, it's sort of like, you know what I mean, it's, you're looking for something like an a, uh, almost like a quote or or something that have that epiphany, that Aha, moment. Is there anything he sort of said to you that just sort of still sticks with you?

Michael Trent 13:43
No, I mean, I don't really remember anything that that he said. I mean, it was just an observation of somebody that can work, that just has such amazing ideas that can seemingly be manufactured out of nothing. There's one particular story I talk about, and we were on Minority Report, and we had been editing for a while, and Spielberg was away, I think he was in Japan, and he called into the editing room with a note of a picture change to make. And it was not just straightforward. It was fairly complex. It involved three four shots. And he said, I believe it will work better. And remember, he's in a remote location, he's in Japan, and we make the change on the Chem and, well, not unbelievably, because he's Steven Spielberg, but the change worked exactly the way he said it would. And it just said to me that he had some kind of video camera in his head that was able to actually run the footage back and then make editing changes in his own head. And I suppose from that point of view, I was thinking about. Yeah, you can imagining the edit is, is something that I try and do and and that was something that he did, and I suppose that's something that I try, and I try and utilize in my career today, that's a, that's the best way I can answer that question.

Dave Bullis 15:26
And sure, Michael and I wanted to just ask, you know, a follow up in editing as a whole. Are you ever given the script, you know, along with the footage, or are you just given, like, the Script, Script supervisors, notes, so to speak, when you're when you're actually editing films.

Michael Trent 15:41
Now I have this. I have the the line script each day, the live, the pages that were shot the day before come in, and they're marked up from the script supervisor, and I work with the script as I edit.

Dave Bullis 15:54
Okay. I always, you know, like to hear how different people work. And, you know, I've always wondered that, because I know I was just reading about how sometimes, you know, scripts are so carefully guarded. And you know what I mean, and it's just sometimes the editor, the editors, you know, they'll just get, you know, notes like that. Or sometimes they'll actually be given the full script so they can actually just go, you know, read through it. And I've worked with different line producers too, who sometimes say, Look, I get the script. I don't even read it, Dave, because I just, I just see different things like, you know, are pulled out of it, and you know what I mean, and they just go from there. So, so when you were working with, you know, Spielberg, you worked with them again on AI, and I believe that that film was started by Kubrick, right, and then it was finished by Spielberg.

Michael Trent 16:36
That's my understanding. I wasn't really involved in, the Kubrick end of it, I understand that Spielberg and Kubrick had had a conversation over a number of years about the making of AI, but I wasn't involved in the details of how that came about. I do remember that we had some footage that Kubrick had shot, and it was footage of of ocean waves, and it was going to be used as an element in the in the submerged Manhattan sequence. But as far as the the transition of the director, being Kubrick to Spielberg, I wasn't really involved in that

Dave Bullis 17:17
I see, and because I was just always fascinated. Because, you know, I heard so much about that movie, and you know that it was started by Kubrick and then had to be finished by Spielberg and and everything else. And, you know, I actually saw it in a in a film class I took in college, and I actually liked it a lot more than other people did. Because some people felt it would felt like two different movies coming together, when I always said that's probably what it was, because it was with Kubrick and Spielberg. But again, I just wanted to ask about that, because, again, you know, you that was a follow up to Spielberg. So just to sort of, you know, take this in, into your career trajectory, you know, when you actually went from an assistant editor to the actual editor, you know, you worked on some pretty cool projects. And I want to talk about, you know, just how you became the editor. So what point did you realize that you were ready just to take on all the editing responsibilities and be sort of be like that guy, so to speak. You know, when did you realize that you were, you were finally ready to do all that?

Michael Trent 18:18
I well, it was in, it was in 2004 when we finished the terminal. And what happened? I mean, you touched on it a little bit earlier. When you move countries, you have to restart your career. And that was definitely my experience, as much as I was lucky to be picked up by Peter hones it. I had to spread out my, you know, find new contacts. So essentially, I did have to restart my career. And even, even when I went with in with the Spielberg's editing crew, you know, they didn't know me and and I really had to sort of prove myself. So if I'd done, you know, eight years in England, and I did another 10 years, eight or 10 years here, I really felt, after that amount of time, I was ready. I mean, usually, if I stayed in England, maybe I would have made the jump sooner. But because I really felt I had to restart my career in the United States, I was I was ready, probably sooner than 2004 at the end of the terminal. Few things happened is that I moved up within the ranks of that editing room. One of the assistants who'd been with Michael Khan before me, moved on to edit himself. So I was able to to move up into a into the first assistant position. And I felt that I did the terminal and Munich as as the first as as well, actually one of the first assistants. So at that point, I had gone as. Far as I was going to go in that editing room. And I felt, again, maybe fatalist. I felt that I could do it. And again, I just decided that was what I was going to do. But in actual facts, it was, it was, I did finish the terminal. I went and cut a picture, and then I was out of work for a while, and they offered me to come back on Munich, which I did, and then I've been editing ever since then, on my own.

Dave Bullis 20:29
So when you went out on your own, you know, did you have a reel with you and say to different projects, did you say, Listen, I can I am, you know, ready to be the editor now? I mean, so. And also, at that point, did you have like, a lot of your own tools, meaning, you know, at your house, do you have, like, your own editing bay set up and and you can work that way?

Michael Trent 20:50
I have done, I sometimes have had I cut on my laptop, which is, you know, I'm talking to on my laptop right now. I have editing software on my laptop. I don't always like to do it, because I like the separation between home and work, but I do have some equipment at home from time to time. But to go back to your your previous question, first part of your question, I cut a couple of short films, and one of them, I cut on film, and then one of them, I cut on a laptop using software called FileMaker Pro, and that I used those movies as a calling card, and they helped me get editing jobs. They certainly helped me get my first feature length movie, which was a picture called My Bollywood bride, or also known as my far away bride, but I don't have an editing set up in my house, no.

Dave Bullis 21:52
So actually, that is a question I want to ask you, too. Michael is about actual editing. You know, when you're actually on a film set or you're actually in the editing lab, you know, working on this. You know, 99% of the films now are all digital. They're shot, you know, with, you know, probably one of, you know, 20 cameras. But you know what I mean, but like, versions of cameras, but they're all, they're all digital. You know, you're getting either different cards, or you're getting hard drives, you're getting something. So what do you edit on now, is there, like, a specific editing software, like Avid premiere, that you actually added on?

Michael Trent 22:25
Yes, Avid Media Composer. I've used, as I say, I've used Final Cut Pro, but not for a long time, but I've used premiere very minimally, although I'd like to use it more, but my main tool is Avid Media Composer.

Dave Bullis 22:40
And why is, is because I've heard other people using Avid. I'm like a premier guy. I actually just downloaded avid free. I don't know if you know this job, but avid just released a complete 100% legit free editing software called Avid Media Composer free. And it's sort of like a light version of Media Composer, the pro grade version. And I'm just, you know, I get in there and play around a little bit. It's, I'm so used to premiere that it's a little there's obviously a learning curve. But you know what makes average like, basically, what, what most pro editors want to use?

Michael Trent 23:12
Well, that's a tough question. I don't, I mean, I use it because it's always been the system that's been available. I'm not sure that the tool, I mean, I've used, I've done the opposite to you. I've actually downloaded the free version of Premiere, so I played around with Premier in that sense. But the most honest answer is that I use added Media Composer because it's, it's what's been available to me, and that's made me get used to it, and that now that that's the reason I'm the most comfortable with the with that system, it's just that's the one that was presented to me.

Dave Bullis 23:52
You know, when I was actually teaching editing courses at a college, which is a whole nother story, by the way, Michael, how I got into that we had, actually, we had a meeting because one professor wanted me to put in Vegas studios. The other professor wanted Avid Media Composer, the other professor wanted just Windows Movie Maker, and then I won a premiere. So it's kind of like, well, how do you please everybody, right? And so the answer was, we ended up just going with Premiere. And when Windows Movie Makers free anyway, so, and I think somebody else wanted Final Cut. I think this is what it was. So basically, you know, the one professor came to me and she goes, Oh, I've worked in different productions and this and that, and she, she was getting info from other editors. She wasn't actually an editor. Actually, I was the only person that's ever actually edited a movie in the whole room, which was actually which was actually kind of funny, but everybody else just heard things like, Oh, this is what this guy used, and this is what that guy used. So she was on productions, and she was like, Well, I heard from my guy that they only use advid, and that's that, and that you shouldn't be using anything else. And I always like to ask, because I always go back to that, because it was actually kind of funny. Me how we're all in a room and we're all just sort of having a pissing contest on which editing software to use, right? So it's good. I always, that's why I always ask that question. And whenever the students, when I actually whatever, whenever I would teach, they would go out into the field, most of them would find that people, did you still use avid and then. But I always said, you know, don't worry about an actual software worry about the principles of editing.

Michael Trent 25:25
Well, that's, that's, that's absolutely correct, and that's the reason I stick with it with Avid although, say, I'm certainly not against trying out premiere. It's just that I want to concentrate on the storytelling aspect of editing, rather than the sort of, how do you make a dissolve, which button do you push? There was a learning curve in the transition from editing on film to electronic editing for me. And I spent, you know, a while getting used to working with the AVID so once I was used to it, it's sort of, it's the devil, you know. And as I say, just I want to concentrate on the storytelling aspect, right? Storytelling aspect rather than the actual software.

Dave Bullis 26:04
Yeah, I completely agree 100% it's all about the story and telling the best story possible. And I wanted to talk to you also, just, you know about the hatred, obviously, you know, I've been interviewing everybody in the cast and crew of this movie. I actually talked to a friend of yours, Thomas Fleming, Oh, yeah. And Thomas was like, oh, make sure you talk to Michael Trent. That guy's amazing. And I was like, You know what? He's actually next on the list for me to talk to. So here we are. But I wanted to ask about the hatred and about, you know, editing that. You know, editing that. So, you know, how did you go about, you know, getting the gig on this movie.

Michael Trent 26:44
Well, it was a situation where I was I knew the director, the director and I met at elementary school, not to say that we met when we were 8, 9, 10, 11, our sons went to the same elementary school here in Studio City and in in, well, certainly the Studio City area, whenever you meet parents, says there's lots of people that are involved in the film industry. And Mike and I were just talking, just standing around, and, you know, we ask each other what we did, and that was a number of years ago. So I met Mike through our sons at school, and had talked for, well, probably a couple of years about filmmaking, and then he asked me to edit the short film of the hatred, which was called Hush. And then we had a certain amount of success with that, and he asked me to edit the feature after that, so I didn't actually have to go out and get the job in this particular instance, because I already knew the director.

Dave Bullis 27:59
And, yeah, Mikey Kehoe, he's, he's everywhere, right? I mean, by the way, do you know that the trailer for the film has over 10 million views?

Michael Trent 28:07
I did hear that I got Mike. I didn't know it was as much as 10 million, but Mike Kehoe called me the other day and said we were up to 7.4 million views. So that's just incredible, that we're at 10 million views. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 28:20
it's, I actually saw it go over, I think either on Friday night or last night, which is Saturday. I I saw it roll over to 10 million. And I was like, my god, this is, you know, this is like a juggernaut. So I wanted to ask, you know, Mike, did you? Did you edit the trailer as well?

Michael Trent 28:37
No, I edited a version of the trailer, but I believe the trailer was made at through Lionsgate. I believe that's correct. But no, I wasn't involved in editing of the trailer.

Dave Bullis 28:52
Okay, I know sometimes the editors don't. Actually, there's a whole different trailer editor. And I just wanted to ask, you know, but so, you know, it's amazing that's over 10 million views. And, you know, obviously, when, when this comes out on September the 12th, you know, I'm actually, you know, interested to see, you know how you know, you know how you know, everyone responds. And you know, because, again, like Mike and I were saying, he wishes the movie was coming out, you know, this weekend, because he's like, you know, all these things are happening. And he goes, now we have a, we have a whole nother month or so before it's actually out. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Mike, I wanted to ask you about editing the hatred when you're actually editing a horror film like this. Do you find that it there's a lot more of I mean, obviously timing is everything, right? So is there more of a timing when you're doing something like the hatred with horror, rather than maybe something more like, I guess, comedic, like, like gem in the holograms, which you also edited. You know? I mean, obviously they're, they're two. Very different films. So, so obviously, is there a lot of like, what are some of the nuances that you have to sort of go through when you're editing two for two different films, just like that, just as an example?

Michael Trent 30:10
Yeah, there's definitely a difference. I mean, without with a movie like The hatred especially, I mean the opening of the movie? Well, the opening of the movie was, I edited with a certain amount of suspense. When we introduced the girls, I edited it, let's say more of a normal movie. But when the the the entity starts to take over, the take over the take over the House. But basically you edit, to put it simply, to try and build tension and suspense the shots, I just keep the shots longer and hold on things a little bit more than I would certainly with a in an action movie or with a with a comedy. Obviously, comedy is very much tied up with timing as well. But if I was to put give you the broad strokes is I generally hold the shots longer to try and build tension and suspense with a horror movie.

Dave Bullis 31:14
So do you sometimes think that? You know, and when I was getting into editing, I made the mistake of cutting too much, and there was actually a professional editor who once told me, she said, Dave, when you cut too much, like you're doing right now, it gets a sense like there's a fight back and forth, like a power struggle. And I started because when I was at when what I was doing was I was cutting on the dialog, so as soon as you were done speaking, cut, go to the other person, and it was like, You know what I mean, like it was, and she goes, you see how that feels? Like I almost like an argument. And I said, Yeah, I get that. Now. I totally get that. And you know that that's some of the things that I picked up too over the years. That's why I imagine. You know, when you're when you're doing horror, you have to hold on to those shots just a little bit more, hold on to those edits, just a little bit more, because you are trying to build that, that tension, suspense.

Michael Trent 32:01
That's it. That's absolutely right. I mean, there was one particular instance in the in the in the hatred, and it's where Alice walks across the room before she's about to go down into the into the cellar. And we started that shot and kept it long. It was just so she could do the whole walk across. She goes past a a wall in in the room, but we kept the the whole length of the shot, and then also down the stairs. The whole piece was kept almost at full length. And it's for that exact reason. It was it, you know, just to build, to build that suspense. But definitely, I mean, another example I can, I can think of, is this was in another movie, I think, but it was a similar kind of genre, but a shadow appears on the wall, and rather than cut when she walks through the door, you start on the where the shadow first appears on the wall, and hold that shot all the way through to when the character walks through the door, and again, with the hope and the aim of creating suspense.

Dave Bullis 32:59
So what are some of like the one of the final things that you hope just to talk about the hatred, just to sort of like, come full circle, you know, what are some of the things that you you hope people take away from the hatred after they got to after a viewing of the movie?

Michael Trent 33:12
Well, I hope they, I hope they're scared, and I hope they talk about the movie afterwards. If they, if, if we put them, the audience, on the audience, on the edge of their seat, then I believe that we've done our jobs, as long as it's, you know, they they enjoy the movie for those reasons, say, and get scared then, then I'll be very happy.

Dave Bullis 33:38
So, you know, Mike just, sort of just continuing to talk about editing, you know, what are some of the tips or principles that you've learned over the years, you know, that you would, you could, you know, just sort of give the listeners who are maybe starting to edit their movies or or maybe just to something that, you know, they could use if they're trying to edit their own movie.

Michael Trent 34:00
It's a good question. I think it probably goes largely, goes back to what we were just talking about. Is that you want to say, first of all, read this, read the scripts, or read the scene, and then decide what the emotion of the scene is. If the the emotion of the scene is a fight, then you would edit, just as you described, you know, cutting very quickly on the dialog lines, or even on the dialog to give the impression that one person is cutting the other person off. If it's a romantic scene, again, you you'd roll those shots out a little bit longer to to create that, that romantic atmosphere. Comedy probably speaks for itself is you've got to cut the right reaction after the right amount of time, after the punchline, and hold on the punchline for the right amount of time. I think that these are the things that I've learned the most. Because I think that a lot of editors. Might have that tendency, as you just described, to cut too much. The other thing that you might I often think about is, is cutting to reaction shots, and what is that person thinking? What is the opposing person thinking as that dialog line is being spoken, and is it, is it relevant to cut to their reaction? And I think it's all about generating the emotion that's intended by the writer, you know, that's written down. So I try and emulate what was originally imagined by the writer.

Dave Bullis 35:42
And you're always, you know, also talk about reading the script and about, you know, finding the essence of that scene. You know, what's the scene really about? You know, I've you hear that a lot, too, in writing, and you realize just how closely involved editing and writing are, because, you know, you're trying to build that same atmosphere. And now you're doing it with the actual footage, while writers, you know, you're doing it and trying to get people to imagine this in their head, you know, trying to get, like, this little this, these images, and how everything would pan out in their head. So, you know, they're, they're very closely related. And, you know, finding that core of the senior what's the scene really about? You know, maybe it's not really about a fight, that's just the after. That's really the, the sort of causation from the actual, you know, I guess I want to say core of the core of the problem, if you, if you will,

Michael Trent 36:29
That's, that's, that's correct. I think that you do work very, very, very much with the sort of the writers intention in mind, or at least my interpretation of what the writer's intention was, and I edit with that in mind, for sure.

Dave Bullis 36:50
Yeah, and you know, that's something to When, when, whenever you're editing anything, I think you have to ask yourself those questions. You know, you have to ask yourself those you know, why are we even? Why is this scene even in here? You know, obviously, because somebody once told me about it, about, you could tell the difference between a good editor a great editor by how, how ruthless I'll cut stuff. And there was this. There was this one time a friend of mine was on, was telling me that it took them two days to get this scene right. And the editor said to them, Look, you got to cut it. And my friend said, who was the director? He goes, but it took us two days to shoot this stupid thing. And the editor said, Yeah, but it has, it adds absolutely nothing to the movie. Mm, hmm.

Michael Trent 37:33
I think that that's that. That's That's absolutely right. I think that as an editor, you also have to look at the edit with the big picture in mind. You you maybe edit a character, but then also edit that character with the whole story arc of the movie in mind. So if there's something that's going to pay off later and and there's a look maybe that you can hold on to, not to tele necessarily, telegraph to the audience, but it could be something that say, you hold on a shot earlier in the movie, which then pays off later. But I think that definitely you have to edit with the whole movie in mind. Yeah, that's very true. And that also that includes that if a scene is not giving anything to the movie, even if it took two days to start, then you have to, you have to cut the scene and and and be ruthless about it. If, in the big picture, that's, that's what's best for the movie.

Dave Bullis 38:33
You know, I always watched Deleted Scenes off of some of my favorite movies on like blu ray or DVD, and when I watch them, I can go, oh, you know what? Now I see why it's a deleted scene, because literally, it added nothing to the movie. It added absolutely nothing. And if you actually put it in there, what if, you know, drug it down, yeah, because you don't want people in the theaters be checking their watches going, Oh my God, when is this thing going to be over?

Michael Trent 38:55
That's exactly right. And that's, that's, you know, that's the hope that we can judge what those scenes are and and take them out for the good of the movie.

Dave Bullis 39:06
Yeah. And very true. And that's where you want to make sure the movie just sort of flows all together. And I think that's what we're all going for, you know, even when we're writing a script or, you know, I'm actually, you know, we're all trying to make sure that we're a servicing the film as a whole, rather than anyone's, you know, ego, so to speak, and to, you know, always making sure that the movie is just flowing together and not to just to just disjointed. If I could actually talk, I would actually help disjointed. So Michael, we've been talking for about, you know, 35 minutes now. So in just in parting, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get a chance to or maybe just sort of any final thoughts to put a period at the end of this whole conversation.

Michael Trent 39:58
Only that. Uh. You know, I've been, I've been doing this, this job, for a number of years, probably more than than I care to remember. But it's a I love the job to be, to be an editor is, is really, for me, a satisfying profession. And as the cliche goes, if you enjoy what you do, then you never work a day in your life. And that, for me, about editing is absolutely true. It's it's a passion of mine and something that I enjoy every day. If that's something I can offer up as a not that it's always easy. There's periods of unemployment, but if you, if you stick at it, then it's a very satisfying career.

Dave Bullis 40:48
Yeah. And that's, you know, a good way to sort of put it, any a period at the end of this conversation, is you have to do what you like. You have to do what you love again. If I could talk Michael would actually be helpful, but, but, yeah, you have to do what you love. And you know that that's key to life. You know, I, you know, myself included, sometimes I've just done things or work jobs that you just hate. You're like, What the hell am I doing to myself here? So you have to, you have to really love this business to to make sure you're actually, you know, you want to do it. And there's a lot of tests in the way that actually make sure you're like, do you sure you want to do this? Yeah, so, Michael, where people find you out online?

Michael Trent 41:26
I'm sorry, what was that?

Dave Bullis 41:27
Where can people find you out online?

Michael Trent 41:29
Well, I have my IMDB page. I have a Vimeo page also, really just Michael Trent, film editor, Google that and a bunch of my stuff comes up. My LinkedIn page, my IMDB page, the name of my agent, and my Vimeo page also come up. But yeah, Google, Google my name and film editor, and that's my online presence.

Dave Bullis 42:00
And I will link to all of that. Everyone in the show notes at davebullis.com Twitter, it's at dave_bullis, and the podcast is at dbpodcast. Michael Trent, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And you know, I'm looking forward to The Hatred.

Michael Trent 42:15
Great and thank you for having me.

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BPS 424: From Short to Feature The Filmmaker’s Journey with Michael G. Kehoe

June 19, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome Michael G. Kehoe, a filmmaker who turned a whisper of an idea into the resounding voice of a feature film. From Brooklyn to Hollywood, from an eight-year-old boy watching his mother direct community theater to a director commanding his own set, Michael’s journey is one of persistence, heartbreak, and sheer creative will.

In this profound conversation, Michael G. Kehoe shares the winding road of his career, one marked by passion and loss. A pact among friends, the bright lights of New York, and the uncertainty of Los Angeles formed the backdrop to his early years. But it was a personal tragedy—the untimely passing of two close friends—that set the stage for his first short film, Second Dance. With no roadmap but a fierce determination, he crafted a story that not only resonated but landed him in the heart of Sundance, proving that even the smallest project can open the biggest doors.

The journey didn’t stop there. Years later, inspired by his twin boys’ innocent bedtime fears, he penned a horror story that would eventually become The Hatred. Rather than waiting for a green light from the industry, he carved his own path. He created Hush, a short film that distilled the very essence of fear—the anticipation of the unknown. The reaction was immediate. Audiences jumped, festivals awarded, and industry heavyweights, including the producers behind Halloween, took notice. The lesson? The industry rewards those who show, not just tell.

But success in Hollywood is rarely a straight road. Shooting The Hatred on a tight budget and an even tighter schedule meant adapting, improvising, and making every shot count. “Poverty breeds creativity,” Michael says, a testament to the resilience needed in independent filmmaking. Working with a largely female cast, he crafted a horror film that stood apart from the blood-soaked clichés, focusing instead on atmosphere, character, and tension. The result? A film that paid homage to the horror classics of the past while carving its own identity in the present.

Of course, filmmaking is a collaborative art. Michael speaks of the relationships that make the journey worthwhile—the actors who return to work with him time and again, the cinematographers who bring his visions to life, and the producers who take a chance on passion over pedigree. “Surround yourself with people smarter than you,” he advises. A lesson as true for life as it is for film.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:24
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:24
You know me and my guest today, we go over all of this stuff, whether it be networking and professionalism, and we also go over one of my favorite topics, creativity. My this guest is also going to be at Geek fest Film Fest four. It's funny because Bill Ostrov, who was on the podcast only a few episodes ago, actually runs Geekfest Film Fest four. That's very hard to say, by the way. I keep saying it. I keep thinking I'm gonna mess it up. But no but all kidding aside, Bill actually runs that that this competition, and he runs the Film Fest as well. And Bill obviously for first glance films. He was on the podcast only a few episodes ago, and we talked all about everything. And it's funny because Mike, this guest this week, actually won the first glance Film Festival with his short Hush, and now he's gonna be on this film panel. So when you hear this podcast, which is going up on February 12, 2017, next week, next Saturday, he'll actually be at this panel. He'll be discussing indie film financing. He'll be discussing how you have to use creativity to make your film. And he is just a wealth of information, as you're about to hear. He also was able to turn a short film hush into a feature length film, which is going to be called the hatred, or Alice the hatred, as the poster says right now. And he even got the producers of the Halloween franchise on board with it, which is unbelievable. So we're gonna talk about all of his journey. We're gonna talk about all of these wonderful, wonderful things, about hustling, about all these things with guest Michael G. Kehoe so, you know, Mike, you grew up, you know, in Ithaca, and then you, you know, obviously, you now live in Los Angeles. So what was the journey that took you from Ithaca, out out to Los Angeles?

Michael G. Kehoe 3:45
Well, I was actually born and raised in in Brooklyn, New York. And my mother was a, was a theater director in the local theater there. And I always, I watched her work, and as she was, you know, involved, deeply involved in the theater there for the community. I went as a little kid, eight years old, watched her at the theater and directing actors and setting the plays up and the sets. And then when we moved up to Ithaca, I knew that this is what I wanted to do. So I started pursuing that I gotten. I played sports, so I wasn't one of these guys that was ostracized because he was either a nerd or a jock or a freak. I also played guitar, so I was in a band, and I got in the drama program. And while I was in the drama program, I knew that there was, there was a path, some way, to get into the film industry. I didn't know what a producer was. I didn't know, you know, I only knew that I had to go out and at some point, go to California, go to Los Angeles and and make movies. And what inspired, what really lit the fire was I directed and played McMurphy in a stage production. Of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest that myself and a couple of friends presented to the sports Booster Club to raise money for them. And not knowing what a producer does, I built the set, and then I got all of the the football players to play, the crazies in the in the play, and that brought in so many people to see their sons, you know, coming, coming in, this football star playing in this play. And it was a sold out weekend for three weekends, you know, the first time that that's ever happened in this small town of Trumansburg, New York. And that lit the fire. And I went on to go to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York, and then came home and decided this was it. I had to take the shot and go to California.

Dave Bullis 5:49
So now, before you moved out to California and LA, specifically, when you, before you moved out there, did you actually, you know, have, like, a place to stay and have a job already lined up?

Michael G. Kehoe 6:01
No, I had nothing. In fact, I came out with three other guys from school. We had made a plan to to, you know, to get out here, and I had already been bartending, so I knew that I could probably get a job once I got out here and in New York at the time, you know, you could, you could start bar thing at 18 in California, was 21 and I had been I was 21 at the time. So when I applied for a job, they said, how many years experience? And I told them, I since 18. They say, well, that's not I said, Well, that's what it is in New York. So I landed a job, and it was at this little place in Studio City called steep Geez. And ironically, before I let when I while I was there, there was a friend of mine that I went to school with. His name was Jimmy Hayden, and Jimmy Hayden was an actor, and I had another friend named Michael Kuchel. And we were, we were very good friends, and I was bartending in Manhattan at a place called eileens, and one night, when we had closed up, the three of us made a pact and said, We're gonna, you know, when one of us gets in there, we're gonna pull the other two in. So I had, you know, left closed up shop, so to speak with my life in New York and moved to California, and then I spoke to Jimmy on the phone about a year or so later, and Jimmy had told me that Michael Kuchel had died, and it was, he was depressed, and it was, you know, it was a long story for that. And then Jimmy had said to me, Listen, I'm, you know, things are going well for me. I did a movie with Robert De Niro called Once upon a time in America, and I'm going to be on Broadway with Al Pacino in a play called American Buffalo. And I said, I got to see he says, Well, we're going to be in certain in San Francisco, so you got to come. We'll go out to dinner. I said, Great. Well, about two months later, Jimmy was dead of a heroin overdose because the character Bobby in the play was an addict. And I'm not quite sure exactly how all of this had happened or how it went down. But Jimmy was not really a drug addict, you know, and he was an incredible actor at the time. In fact, Mickey Rourke dedicated his performance in Pope Greenwich Village to Jimmy Aiden. So that relationship between myself and those two young actors really set an idea up for me that I had had about, you know, creating film. And I made my first short film called second dance, and it was, it was basically about myself and and my relationship with two guys. And I was depressed when I came out here, not working, not knowing what was going on. And I ended up writing that short film that was about a guy who was at the end of his rope, and two of his friends come back as angels to visit him, and he's about to commit suicide, and they convince him it's not the thing to do. Well, that went on to I take its journey, and ended up at Sundance.

Dave Bullis 9:00
You know, that's absolutely incredible. You know, just to, you know, take a step back for a second. You know, when you said you have that pact with friends, you know, if one person makes it, you know, the other, the other, the person makes, is gonna help the other ones up. You know, that's, that's actually something that, you know, I've heard of before, too, where, you know, friends, or even if they went to the same college or grew up in the same neighborhood, and, you know, they sort of say, Listen, if you know, one of us makes it, we're going to do our best to help the others, whether that be through contacts or introductions or, you know, what have you. And we're also going to tell you what is actually on the front line of things. And you know, like, I had a friend of mine who was a screenwriter, and he, you know, he made it, and he always was telling his friends, you know, this is how your scripts got to look. This is what it's got to be. Because you got to get one shot with this through an introduction, and you have to make it as good as possible.

Michael G. Kehoe 9:50
Yeah, you know the to me, what, what? What has to happen in your life is whatever relationships that you. Have, and whatever bond you have, you know it's very important to continue that especially if it's going to be in a certain business, whether you're in whether you're in a travel business, whether you're in the restaurant business or anything like that. Your friends can actually help you. They can actually hurt you as well, depending on you know, how your friends are with you and how that bond is. And I think that having that support, sometimes of a creative friend that's along with you can elevate your career as well as their own. And I truly believe that giving back, you know, is also part of it. And I, you know, I cherish the relationship that I had, as though, you know, but it was short lived, because it was only a couple of years in New York, and then when we came out, you know, I didn't get to see them, and when I heard about it, what had happened. It was it kind of, it was devastating, you know, knowing that we had this plan to go out and do it, but you can't, you know, you can't give up, and they wouldn't want you to give up. So I just, you know, I continued the journey.

Dave Bullis 11:15
So, I mean, and again, you know, when you were talking about how both of your friends had passed, you know, and the one had died from from a heroin overdose. I mean, that that is just unbelievable out of left field, because, like you just said, you know, he, you know, he wasn't, you know, into that, or never had, had no, been a known drug addict or anything like that. And, you know, it's just that's, you know, that's just one of those things at a left field. And, you know, remind, you know, it just reminds me of a few things that that have happened to other guests as well. You know, where they were, something, you know, a friend of theirs has just missed, you know, just died, and she's been clear out of the blue, like you see him one day, and, you know, it's almost like they're gone the next,

Michael G. Kehoe 11:56
Yeah, you know, look at the I guess. You know, the 70s and 80s were really a time when people were exploring and testing things out in their lives. And since this character, I can't speculate. I can all you know, I can only try to try to put things together in a sense where possibly this happened. But I don't want to, you know, say for sure. But you know, when you play a character that's a heroin addict. You know, most actors won't do the heroin. Some people may just, you know, may test it out and and it becomes their demise. And Jimmy was a great guy, you know, he, he was a very talented actor. And I don't, you know, I don't know how it went down, or who he was with, or the crowd. You know, there's, articles about it, and people wrote things about who he was with and how it was influenced. But I think what you have to celebrate is their lives and the work that they did, which was far more important than that. You know, that downward spiral that caused it, and Jimmy's work speaks for itself. You know, it's, it was a remarkable career, you know, short lived, much like James Dean, you know. And in fact, in fact, they compared him to James Dean during that time. So, you know, it because of that relationship, it inspired me to do that film that really opened the door for me and go and move on. So I believe that they were, you know, they were part of it,

Dave Bullis 13:22
Yeah. And you use this as inspiration to, you know, to write and direct. And you were actually able to produce second dance, you know, which was a short film of yours. And, you know, you also got one of my favorite character actors, by the way, in the film, Carmine Felipe, or Philippe. Yeah, Carmine was every move, every move that Carmine is in, he is just, you're you're just drawn to him. He's like a magnet. He it could because his performance I and every move I've ever seen of him, no matter whether it's in Wayne's World or Beetlejuice. He's era, you know, or even in, you know, in your film secondhand, he's just always you're just drawn to his performances.

Michael G. Kehoe 14:03
Well, you know, the funny story about about him was, I was working on another movie in production, and I, while I was on set on location, who's walking down the street in Hollywood is Carmen and and I knew that I wanted to have someone in this short film. Usually, what people try to do is they try to get one name, a big name, or something like that, to do a cameo, to do in your film. And I didn't want, I didn't want it to be, you know, to get Al Pacino, you know, in in the in the short film. I would have loved to have done that, but I didn't see, you know, a spot for that, to put it in there and take your attention away. So when I talked to Carmen, Carmen is completely different, or was, you know, he passed away, but he was completely different from the characters that he played on on film. And we had a great discussion about acting, about life in Hollywood, and his journey as well. And I. Told him the story that I just told you about the, you know, the process in which second dance was made. And he, he, he was drawn to the story, and he wanted to be a part of it. In fact, after he read the script, he had said to me, I love it. I want to do this no matter what, I'll be there. Would you mind if I, kind of, like, you know, went off the script for a little bit, and I said, look, as long as you stay on the path of where we're heading to, you know, your dialog will be golden for me. Just make sure that we stay within those confines of the story. And you know, when you do a short film, especially when you're shooting on film, because I shot that on 35 millimeter, you don't have a lot of luxury to do multiple takes. And I think we did maybe, maybe two or three takes at the most of him. And I let him go, and I just said, go, go with it. And, you know, he lit up the screen. He looks great on film. He's engaged with the characters, and he communicates extremely well. And it's just he was a pleasure to work with,

Dave Bullis 16:08
You know. And we talked to about that, you know, on the podcast too, is, you know, the difference between 35 millimeter and digital, you know, because, you know, the filmmakers who who've shot on both, they've, you know, that's the one thing they like about digital is that they can do, you know, they can't afford that luxury of multiple takes, because obviously, you know, you know, it doesn't cost anything to, you know, put another file on an SD card or what have you. But again, when you're working for 35 millimeter, there's there, you know, every take, literally, literally does cost you money,

Michael G. Kehoe 16:39
Without a doubt. In fact, you know, I cut the movie on a movie Ola. And, you know, people don't realize, you know, the film thinkers of today what even what a movie Ola is, unless they Googled it. And you know, you have this tiny little screen that's like a three by five screen, and you put the film and the sound through it, and that's what you're watching to get your final product out there. And it's a big risk, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's just a chance that you're taking, you know? And we didn't have, we also didn't have video playback. So I stood by camera and watched the performances there, hoping that my, my DP, my cinematographer, would capture the essence of what was in the script and and he did, you know, we, we literally, I love films that are dark in the sense of their lighting, and doesn't, doesn't look flat, and just does it, just exposes, just enough To bring you into that world. And Chris Mosley, who's my DP, we had long discussions prior to that about the this process and knowing that we had to capture things, I didn't care. I wanted to give it like a film noir look with color and and go through that process. But by by doing it on 35 millimeter, I was limited to the number of takes the time. And, you know, poverty breeds creativity, so we did what we could to get the best performances on screen, and everybody, from the background to, you know, the main actor, they all pulled it off. And the proof is in the pudding for the film itself.

Dave Bullis 18:21
Yeah, and you mentioned something to that is thought provoking, to that I've mentioned other guests, and we've talked about is the, the relationship between the director and the DP, you know, like today, you know, people usually get monitors, you know, and they watch, they can see the exact framing, you know. But, but it used to be you had to trust your director cinematography, with with everything, because, you know, you didn't get it. You didn't see what they were actually getting. If you know what I mean, they were, they were actually, you had to trust them, that they were getting this correct shot, that everything looked good. And you and directors would stand, you know, watch the actual, actual character performance, the actual, the actual actor performances, right then and there, but, and not on a monitor and, you know, and now nowadays, so that's, that's what most directors do, is that they have the actual monitor now to see the performances as they're happening.

Michael G. Kehoe 19:09
Well, you know, you're absolutely right. And what I, what I try to do, and what I've done on my films, is communicate with my DP and allow him to paint the picture. I give him a map of what we want to do. I try to frame certain things, and he lights and takes it from there, when I did hush the short film, my DP, John Connor and I, we worked for four and a half months beforehand and had everything mapped out. I did the storyboards. We looked at camera angles. I had purchased something on my iPhone, which was called Filmic Pro, to take video and snapshots of the set and the actors in position. So we had some sort of framing for that. But I did discuss with John, which we were, we were pulling our hair out, and I said, Look, I don't want, I don't want any lights in this movie. It's at night. It's in indoors and interior shots. I said, I don't want any lights at all. I just want a flashlight. And John, you know, said, How are we going to do this? We shot with the Alexa, but we came up with a plan and an idea that was sparked in the preparation. And you use these little tricks to create the scene, and it worked perfectly. And if it wasn't for that prep time and the discussions and the relationship between myself and the DP, I don't think we would have had what we had. And most filmmakers today, they just want to make a movie, to get out there and make a movie. But if you don't have, if you don't have a good dp and great sound, then you're traveling down a road where you're just like everybody else, and you're just going to shoot on an iPhone or something, and it looks flat and there's no style to it. But when you create something and you have a great relationship with your DP, who shows a style, it elevates you as a filmmaker. And I think that's one of the things that's very, very important to a lot of filmmakers, or for a lot of film filmmakers. And you see it in a lot of the in the horror genre, where the lighting and and the composition is just done so well in most of those films. And I think a lot of the successful film, like filmmakers today started out in in horror.

Dave Bullis 21:46
Yeah, that is very true. And you know, that's something that I've even talked about at the beginning of the podcast when I had on David huel from a horror movie school. You know, a lot of successful filmmakers actually did start in horror. And you know, like, like Sam Raimi always is the first one that comes to mind, you know, because Sam Raimi made Evil Dead, and then Evil Dead too. And then, you know, he sure, years later, he went on to make spider man. And, you know, now, you know, he gets those big Bucha, big blockbuster movies,

Michael G. Kehoe 22:15
Right! Well, I mean, James Cameron made Piranha the Spawning, yeah, you know, there's just, I mean, you look at the people who who started their career out, especially with Roger Corman, and you know, it was Francis Coppola, there was Martin Scorsese. And all of these great filmmakers of today actually gave got their start through that. You know, that path that Corman set out to create. So, you know, I got to give a lot of credit to to filmmakers and producers like Roger Corman, because he opened the door for people they didn't have a lot of money to make those movies. But I think that goes back to saying that poverty breeds creativity. And when you're a filmmaker, your creative side, and your those creative juices have to flow, and they have to flow with your VP as well as your actors. And when it all comes together, you know, this is, this is what filmmaking is.

Dave Bullis 23:12
Yeah, I love that saying, by the way, poverty breeds creativity. I like that, Mike. I might have to steal that, by the way, it's yours, yeah. So, So, Mike, after you made second dance, you know, you made some other films, obviously, between second dance and hush, you know, hush I want to get to, but I want to talk, you know, obviously, about those films in between. You know, after you film second dance, did you, did you take, did you take it to any film festivals, and where was that? How, you know, did you parlay that into your next film, which was dominion?

Michael G. Kehoe 23:46
Well, what I did was I submitted the I submitted second dance to Sundance, and I didn't make it because it was, it was too late. So I talked to a friend of mine who's a producer, and he said, Look, let's get a screening. We'll get a screening. We'll get a room over at Tristar, over where Sony is now, and we'll screen that, and then that, you know, you'll bring some people in. Look, there may be only 30 people that show up, and we'll see what happens. So I said, Okay, and now, you know, you you have a 35 millimeter can that you walking around with. This is your child. So I brought that to Sony, and I put word out. You know, I had been in the movie business, in working in production which my brother got me. I got my brother into it, and then he got me on the in, on that side, and we got a 99 seat theater, and I waited outside, and 500 people showed up, including Keanu Reeves, and because I had worked with him on speed. And so now you know, what do I do? And I had to show the film five times because there's only 99 seats. And when it was over, the projectionist came to me and she said, and it was a woman, and for the life of me, I can't remember what her name was, but. I'm actually searching now to find out, because we're about to screen the next movie at Sony. And she said to me, Michael, Have you submitted this to Sundance? And I said, Yeah, but it was too late. I didn't make it. She said, Well, why don't you leave it here, you know, for this weekend, because I the gentleman that is part of the shorts program. He's in charge of the shorts program. He would be here, and I should show this to him. This deserves to be in there. So I thought, Oh, my God, I'm leaving my child here, you know, at Sony, you know, over the week for the week, and I trusted her, and came home, you know, and about four or five days later, I get a truck comes up with the can film can, drops it off for me to sign, and I figure it's over. I don't hear anything. Well, about two and a half weeks later, I get a letter in the mail says Sundance. And I thought right away, this is a rejection letter, just thanks for sending it in, but no thanks, and I'm sitting on the front porch with my dog, and I open the letter, and sure enough, it says, on behalf of Robert Redford and the Sundance Film Festival, you have made it to the festival. So I jumped for joy for that, and went to went to the festival. It was, I think it was at the same time that Hoop Dreams was playing at that time, and Matthew Modine was in a short film, and Winona Ryder, and so we were all interviewed by Entertainment Tonight for that. And I got a, I got approached by another company. I had written a an action, a thriller, that I just wanted to sell. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to direct it. And they approached me and they said, you know, this would be great if you will do this, if you want to direct it. And the producer who helped me with the short ended up producing that, and we went on to do that feature. The funny story was, I had been working in production, you know, at a craft service company, and I was doing a movie called Airheads with Adam Sandler and, you know, Steve Buscemi, and Ernie Hudson was in it. And Ernie Hudson would get a couple of scripts, you know, during the course of the week. And what I did was I took my script and I got the PA who was bringing it to his his trailer, and I sneaked it in there. And about two days later, Ernie called me to his trailer and said, Did you write this? I said, Yeah. He says, I want to do it. And I said, Oh my God, it's great. So I prism at prism entertainment at the time, we made a deal together. It was a $1.3 million movie, and Ernie was in and we did a promo shots with Ernie space on the poster, and got everything together. And then a couple of months, about a month or so before shooting, Ernie came to me and said, Mike, I feel bad, but Kathleen Kennedy called me and I'm going to do this movie called Congo. And he says, I won't be able to do that movie. And I, you know, of course, I was disappointed, but you never want to say, Screw you. You're supposed to do my movie that you don't survive in this industry by being that way. And I was so supportive of it. And I said, Look, go do that. You're gonna, you're gonna do a lot better than doing this movie for this little movie for me. But we ended up getting Brad Johnson and and also, I don't know if you, if you've seen the movie Brian James, who was in Blade Runner, and 48 hours, and a number of other actors, and in Richard, really, who plays a character role in that. And then that went on was, I think it was on. It was on cable for a while, and then I went off to do a couple of other shorts that won some awards, and then I did another feature called The Art of a bullet with Lafe Garret. And, you know, I people were laughing at me of casting lace Garrett in this in the lead role, but I have to tell you, Lafe did such an amazing job in this role. It was a dark, kind of a film noir, detective thriller about a home invasion. And he was, he was spot on. And then, of course, after the film, he got in a little bit of trouble, and things kind of went sour for a while for him. But it really worked, you know, it worked out for the film itself. And, you know, we got a small distribution deal overseas for that, and then I went on and started writing again, and that's when I came up with this idea of finally doing a horror movie.

Dave Bullis 29:35
So, and just to stop and ask a question right here, don't you think it's important for for pretty much everybody, whether you're an actor or director, to be writing your own scripts, just just to even if, whether you're going to shoot yourself, or even just to hand it to somebody else and maybe say, Hey, would you want to make this?

Michael G. Kehoe 30:06
You know? I think, I don't think any, you know, it's, it's a great question, because there's some incredible writers out there, independent writers that haven't made it yet, and they have some remarkable scripts, and they don't want to be a director, they don't even want to be a producer, they just want to write. And so yes, I found it that in the beginning stages of my career, when I first moved out here, I bought myself a computer, and I, you know, not even knowing how to use it, the only thing I wanted to learn was a screenwriting program, and I had the first, you know, version of Final Draft when it came out and started writing that, because a writer writes, and that's what I was trying to do, as well as make my film. But I think you know, if you as a filmmaker starting out, it might be, it might be wise to either write something, if you're able to write something that is is readable and enjoyable for the for the reader and the audience, but you may find a writer that's out there that has written something that that you may not be able to pull off in your own writing skills. I mean, I'm reading some scripts now that I would never be able to do, and I love and I, you know, I'm working on trying to to acquire them, but you know that it's a great question to ask. It's, I just think it's the individual of who wants to create something and, and maybe sit with a writer and create something or, or do it yourself, like you said. I don't think there's any specific answer for that.

Dave Bullis 31:43
Okay, you know. And it's always something when I always ask everybody, because, you know, some people are always, some people got very frustrated about, you know, not having options. Some people wanted their make their own opportunities. There's, there's always a couple of key words, just one single word that I always find on the podcast, Mike, one of them is creativity. Another one is opportunities. And I always sort of let you know we can draw so much from them, because we're all just sort, you know, we're always boiling things down to sort of that, that one word that we can sort of use. And you know, again, I like what your definition of creativity? You know poverty. You know poverty. Poverty creates creativity and and just, you know, self, that's why I wanted to ask that question. But, you know, so as we continue on with, you know, with, with your whole journey, you know, again, you wanted to write a horror movie. So where did sort of the impetus to of the of the idea, this sort of seed idea, where did that come from for the concept of the horror movie?

Michael G. Kehoe 32:44
Well, yeah, early on, I was inspired by thrillers, Hitchcock things like that. I'm not very much into slasher films, blood and guts, torture, or anything like that. And looking at the the horror genre. The horror genre, to me, is like 31 flavors. You know, you have people that like vampire movies, you have people that like zombie movies. You have like people like paranormal movies or slasher movies. But when you make, when you make a horror thriller, you get the attention of all those across the board. And that's what I wanted. I didn't want to make a specific film for one specific audience, so I started thinking about things. And I have twin boys, and when they were very, very young, they used to say, before they went to bed, they used to say, Daddy, check under the bed. Daddy, check the closet, Daddy, you know. And I said, there's nothing there, there's nothing there. And that inspired me to create this story of Hush. And so when I got into it, I wanted to, I started writing the feature, which originally was called the hatred, and I took a scene out of that, which is the scene, you know, the hush, which we shot, and I decided that I was going to go out and try to try to shoot this as a short film. Because years ago, in the 80s and 90s, a lot of the stunt men that I knew were creating sizzle reels, or, you know, a reel that would expose it, would actually promote the film itself. So kind of like a teaser and, and I thought, you know, I'm going to do this one scene, if there's attention for this, it may give me a shot at at the feature. And I wanted to make more of a of an anticipation of death, rather than death itself. Because, you know, the anticipation of death is worse than death itself. And if you're watching something and it's what's behind the door, it's the journey from the moment you hear the sound till you get to the door. That journey in between is the journey that raises the hair on the back of your neck, and that's what I wanted. So I have a very close friend of mine that we were. We were started out our careers very early. His name is Tommy Harper, or is Tommy Harper, and we decided that we were going to, you know, try to develop this. Now, Tommy Harper started out as an ad and then worked his way up in producing. And at the time, Tommy had said to me, you know, do this, but you really need a DP that understands horror. So I told him about John Connor. John Connor and I had been friends for many, many years. We worked on a couple of films with Tony Scott, and then we started talking. This was 18 years ago. We talked about making a movie together, and Tommy Harper said, no, no, no, you know he's that. He doesn't know horror. You look at these guys. So Tommy went off told me that he was not going to be available because he was leaving town to go work, to go produce a movie. And that movie, that little movie, was Star Wars, The Force Awakens in London. So I said, Okay, well, I don't want to stop you from working on this little movie, to go work on that little movie. So Tommy went off to do that, and while the cats away, the mice will play. And I got John Connor to shoot Hush. And when in the in the process of writing it and doing it, as I said to you, before we created this, this formula that we wanted to make for this movie. And when we finished it, I had my editors, a guy named Michael Trent, who's an incredible editor, worked with Steven Spielberg for many years, and we have our kids went to school together, so we had a relationship there, and I didn't expect him to want to be a part of it. He read the script and he said, I'll do it. I'll do it. And it was only five minutes. But the the footage that I gave him, I got to give him credit for the for the entire cut, because the only thing we did was extend one little piece of the section of the movie. Other than that, what you see is Michael Trent's cut. And then, you know, we started the journey with the short film on the festival route. And I spent, you know, filming. Filmmakers have to understand, you have to spend money to make money, and you've got to get it out there, and you got to get it out to the right festivals. You know, you want, want to go to festivals that have screenings. You want to go to festivals that are probably a few years in the making, because there are, you know, there's some people that are sitting home that are, you know, typing out little certificates and emailing them to you saying you won this festival, when it really doesn't mean anything. So you want the, you want the acknowledgement from the audience as well as a respected Film Festival,

Dave Bullis 37:39
Yeah, you know, that's also something that I've talked about too with other people in this podcast has been, you know what festivals are? Can actually do something for you as well as you, you know you're giving a submission to them. Are these festivals valid? You know, if you because I went way back when I had a script running consultant on who, uh, who actually said he had a client and she and she ended up winning like, 15 different screenwriting competitions. But the downside was Mike, none of them were, like the big name festival competitions. They were, you know, the smaller competitions. And he said, literally, the only way she got more work after winning all these competitions was that she had a deep network, and that one person got her into somewhere else to do it, to do a writing gig. But, you know, and it just goes back to, we were talking about networking, and, you know, things like that. But, you know, just to talk about, you know, again, with, with Hush, you know, making sure, you know, the audience responded to it, as well as, as the as the festival circuit, you know, when, when were you? When did you, sort of, you know, know that you had, you know, I guess the term would be hit, you know, when did you know that you had something here that, you know, you sort of got Lightning in a Bottle with this?

Michael G. Kehoe 38:56
Well, another great question, you know, I'm extremely hard on myself. It's hard for me to sit in the theater to watch the movie that I made, because, you know, I want to please the audience and I want to go out, and sometimes you never know. You know what's going to happen, and their reaction, if it's positive or negative. So when we finished it, I showed it to a few people, and the reaction from them jumping out of their seat, I knew that there was something there. I didn't know if they were being honest with me, but as I started testing it with people, I got the same feeling. So I said, Okay, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna put it out into this festival. And the very first festival, we won eight awards. And I thought, Okay, well, maybe this is maybe this is it. And we started applying. I spent a lot of money, you know, putting it out to to film festivals. We got on Film Freeway, and we started hitting it. And I you know, could, we couldn't get into some of the bigger festivals at the time because of the timing of it, but as it started going out, and like you had said, which I think is so important, you have to build a network, a following that you get in there. And since we now have social network, you can actually go out and let people know what you're doing, and in doing that, people will start to gain a little interest and see what you're doing. And as you're starting to hit that market and festival after Festival, and you're announcing it, because you have to be your own publicist, people will be interested in say, Well, I want to see this film now, because it's won 10, 1214, awards, and not until we were selected at the Catalina Film Festival, and my good friend Ivana cadaver said to me, I couldn't make it to the festival because I was actually going to be working on this other movie. And I said, I'm not going to be able to make it. She said, I'll go in place. And then she called me and said to me, do you know that Wes Craven actually chose your film? It was before he died. It was one of the films that he said, This deserves to be in the festival. Deserves to be a feature. So I think F Gary Gray made the announcement, or whatever at the at the festival itself, and Robert England was there, and we won an award there, the Wes Craven Award, which was, you know, a great feather in my cap for the movie. And as that went out, and I built this following on social network. It was Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. You know, people started seeing what was happening, and I put it out and gave it to a producer by the name of Malika cot. And Malik is responsible for the Halloween franchise. And, you know, I was, I had sent it over to Blumhouse. I sent it over to a couple of other places, Sony and and some other places. And Malik called me and said, not been sent a lot of scripts. I really like this. I want to sit down with you with this, and Malik's kind of a hands on producer, and we sat and we developed the story and and continued with the events that occur within the script and the characters and taking some things out, putting other things in. And we got financed, and we were set to go into production. It took a while from the time that the I think the film was the short film went out in the latter part of 2014 and we shot the film in 2000 it was 2016 when we shot, I think was 2016 I can't remember what happened yesterday, but, you know, we Yeah, it was, it was a, it was a spring of 2016 and that what happened there once again, this, this comes into mind about poverty, breeding, breeding, creativity. You know, we had a limited time to shoot. I think we had, like, a an 18 or 19 day schedule, but we were just under a million dollars, and wasn't a lot of money, you know, for what we wanted to do, because we have big expectations of trying to put the best up on screen, and we are hit by the union, so we had to go union. So we lost a number of days for that, and it's a good amount of money from the budget. So I didn't want you know losing two days is a lot. And we were like, we were shooting, I think, 35 setups a day, which is, you know, remarkable for a feature. And I got to give credit to my crew and my cast, because they were with me. And I remember working with Tony Scott, and Tony Scott getting up there and lifting up, you know, boxes and moving and getting the team to move, go, go, go. And that's what they did. And so we went, we were prepared in one seat in one part of this house. We shot in and made people aware of what was going on so we would be able to go from there to the next spot. And Malik did a great job of, you know, guiding it through and creating a world for us to, you know, to have an opportunity. We had a great line producer by the name of Sean gory and, of course, my, my DP, John Connor, who is so is so incredibly talented. In fact, John went on to shoot meet the blacks and a couple of other movies. Taylor walk in the movie that I I can't remember the name of it right now, but John got signed by an agency right away after that. And we, you know, it was a, let me just say this, it was a battle for me, because you, you have one idea and one path that you think that this film is going to go on, and then, of course, it takes a different path, because. Because of the roadblocks that you have. And I look at the film now, and is it the movie they originally wanted to go out and make? Probably not, but however, now it's, it's, it's a movie that I'm very proud of. It's kind of a, it's an homage to the 70s and 80s with no blood, no guts, no sex, no stupid women, and we have 95% female cast. So I think we, I think we ended up hitting the mark on what we did.

Dave Bullis 45:33
But by the way, I wanted to mention Mike. We actually have a mutual friend who actually worked on Alice the hatred and who did the makeup effects? The makeup effects sculptor, and that was Hiroshi kitagi. And Hiroshi has actually been on this podcast as well.

Michael G. Kehoe 45:49
Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, right, yeah, exactly. I mean, this is, this is a great story as well. I was working in on a movie called Last Samurai. I was in New Zealand, a Tom Cruise movie, and we had gone to Japan, and we would sick, I think, five months in into New Zealand. And the the transportation coordinator, whose name is Vic Kucha, his daughter was his name. Her name is Austin Kucha. I think she was like, 10 or 11 years old at the time, and I was, you know, we were prepping, so I was driving out on one of those Honda you know, I don't forget what they call them. They're like the four wheel go karts, so to speak, but they're motorized, you know. And I'm driving her out, and she's sitting with me, and I just said to her, I said, What do you want to do when you get older. She said, I want to do special effects makeup. And I said, really? And she said, yeah. I said, Well, if I ever make a movie, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring you on there. Now, never thinking anything would happen years later. I'm doing Hush. And Austin has created blood drugs. I don't know if you know what that is, but when you watch CSI, and you see an actor dead laying on the floor in a pool of blood, they have this rug that they peel up and they lay down, so you don't ruin the floor in a location. And they could put splatters on the wall, which is which peels off and goes back on, so you never have to worry about, you know, continuity. You know somebody stepping into it, because it doesn't change. And Austin did the makeup on Hush, and ended up coming on the feature as well. So this is another thing of how small this little world of Hollywood is, you know, and it's, to me, it's a great little world. And you know, when I hear people say, Oh, that's so Hollywood. That person so Hollywood. To me, there's there's Broadway, there's off Broadway, and there's Off, off Broadway. In Hollywood, there's Hollywood, there's off Hollywood, or Hollywood, independent Hollywood, and then desperate Hollywood. And desperate Hollywood are those people that talk about doing it, never do it, and say they have money, but never, no, never do that. I, believe me, I've been dealing with that, in fact, right now on an independent movie, people who are saying, yeah, they have money and they know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody, and to me, that's desperate. So, you know, give credit to the people that are actually doing things and making it happen. There's so many wonderful filmmakers out here that I always try to support at festivals and try to see what they they're doing. And always, you know, have whatever advice that I could give from my my journey and my adventure. I always try to help others with it.

Dave Bullis 48:35
Yeah, I like that term desperate Hollywood Mike, because, you know, I've encountered that myself. And whenever I'm reading a, you know, like someone's autobiography, they've had that as well. Particularly the first person that comes to mind is Quentin Tarantino, when he was trying to get money for Natural Born Killers, which was actually one of his first screenplays, he actually met these two bodybuilders who were trying to is, they said, Well, we have all this money and this and that. And they, they didn't have anything when he, when he wrote Reservoir Dogs, somebody else tried it said, oh, you know, I can get you the money, but you got to make my girlfriend has to be Mr. Blonde, the Mr. Blonde character, yes, put it in, put it as a woman and, and, you know, he, you know, all these people were just blowing smoke, you know, they didn't have any money at all.

Michael G. Kehoe 49:19
Yeah, that's, you know, that's what filmmakers run into. There's always somebody that says, I gotta have my girlfriend in there, and we can't tell my wife, you know, or I've got to do this, and I've got to do that, and you've got to do this for me. But, you know, I think every filmmaker needs to stay on track, you know, for for what they want, because ultimately, it's, their ass that's on the line, and no one else's. And if you end up when the term's selling out, it's selling out to say, well, I'm going to do this just to get money. You know, don't go out to make a movie, just to make a movie. I mean, you wouldn't go out and have a child, just have a child. You know, you want to make sure that you can support that child and nurture it and grow just like you would with a cell. And so I think that that's the attitude that a lot of successful filmmakers have, is to create a world and and try to get it not only, you know, from the page to the camera to the audience, and you know, it's, it's remarkable. Sometimes I I hear these people that are just going out, and I see some of the films that they shoot, it looks flat. The acting is not that great, and and where they put it out, it goes nowhere. And they say, Well, I'm gonna have a life on YouTube. Well, that's great. But if you really, if you want to be a filmmaker, you know, put your heart and soul into it and surround yourself. To me, this is the most important thing, surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, because you don't. It's good to know a little bit about everything, but get somebody that can actually do the job of you know, your sound guy, for instance, Tom Curley, who won the Academy Award for whiplash, was my my sound mixer on the movie that we did the hatred. And Tom is from upstate New York, so we had that in common. I had worked with Jeff Wexler, whose dad is Haskell Wexler, when I did a little short film that won it at Comic Con years ago. And to me, you really have to have great sound for a film. People will say, Well, you know, we'll do it in post. I hate that line that we're going to fix it in post. If you don't fix it on the set, you're gonna have problems later on, you know. So you put your heart and soul in it, and you you get people that are are smarter than you, because that's going to pave the road to success for people who dedicate their their heart and mind to it.

Dave Bullis 51:48
Yeah, I also don't like that whole attitude of, you know, let's just fix it in post. You know, I think you know when you're almost like when, if you've were to interview a lot of student filmmakers, I think a lot of them have that attitude, and unfortunately, some people, so some people don't lose that attitude. And I've been on film sets too, where, I mean, hell, I'll admit it, Mike, I've been guilty of that too. And you know, that was a few years ago, obviously. But you know when I now, you know when I'm whenever I'm, you know, it's been a while since I've been on set. I shouldn't have mentioned that, but, but it's been a while I've been on set, you know, as I run a film podcast, but, uh, basically, you know, I realize now you have to do it right, you know, right when you're right, then and there. And, you know, sometimes you need a little more time, but it always sort of comes down to that production management triangle, right? You can have it good, you could have it you could, you know, there's, there's the quality, the speed and the time. So you can have it fast and slow, but it'll be good, you know, all that stuff, and you got to sort of all, sort of manage that, where you're on set,

Michael G. Kehoe 52:51
Well, you know? And that's why, that's why preparing is the, you know, is 90% of the job, because then everything runs smoothly after that. And have in mind that you are going to, you are going to come into, you know, some changes. You know, filmmakers don't some filmmakers, early on don't realize that. You know, when you're recording sound on set, you also have to have room tone that you're going to record so you can use later on, in case there's, you know, there's a change in dialog, or you have to shoot something later on, getting that rune tone puts you back into that that that set and and if you watch a movie that has crappy sound, it takes you out of it. If you watch a movie that has an okay picture and great sound, you know, you're you're you're still engaged, you're still involved. But sound is so important and so engaging for the film that most people don't they don't consider it to be that important, and it's something that they say they'll always fix later. And I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

Dave Bullis 53:54
Yeah. Same here. Same here, Mike, and it is very important, something I learned from Kelly Baker. Kelly's been on the show as well, and he's the sound mixer for Gus Van Zant. And yeah, he and he's always mentioned, you know, about the importance of sound and everything, and he really is the person that really sort of drove that home for me. And you know, even when I watch movies now, I'm always watching, I know, I'm always listening now for how the sound compliments the the video part, the actual, you know, what will be, what we can see,

Michael G. Kehoe 54:24
Yeah, without, without a doubt. I mean, it's almost a character in in the film itself. You know, I wrote, and Tommy Harper is responsible for making this deal. I wrote a sci fi film. It's kind of like, in the same vein as alien and the thing, and I wanted to set it in in in Iceland, on this air force base that my father was actually stationed at in the 50s. And I, you know, presented to them, and they picked it up, and they flew me out there for a. Scouting and which we're going to shoot this thing in this this fall, late fall, in Iceland. And one of the things when I went up, one of the experiences that I had when I was on the location, we went inside the old base that's been shut down since 2000 and I believe 2008 it was an American base. And they had, you know, in Iceland, their power is 220 and ours is 110 so there was 110 but they had pulled everything out. And so this, this particular facility, had these walls that were like, oh, probably a foot thick. And when I went in there, it hadn't been touched since 2000 I think 11, and there was no dust on the on the walls or anything, but the sound in there. I started. I started smiling, because every little thing, if you dropped a coin, it had this incredible sound, because everything was completely silent because of the thickness of the walls. And I just knew that this was going to be something that came, you know, along with the film, that was going to elevate the film. So having a great sound man and having a great location for that sound is just equally as important, you know, for the success in the film. You don't want to shoot near an airport and have a, you know, have a dramatic scene that's an emotional scene with two people talking. So you just have to, you know, you have to really pull it off in such a way and do that research. So I look forward to, you know, to creating that movie as well. It's titled kebabic with a company called True North that is, is in Iceland, Kristen Thornton, who's the producer for that? They actually started out as a production facility company, and they they did Walter meetings, they did Star Wars, they did some of the, some of the Star Treks. And there's a great story of how that came about with that meeting, because Tommy Harper introduced me to Kristen Adam, had a meeting, and Tally had asked me if I had any I, you know, scripts that were kind of sci fi. And I said I had an idea, but I didn't have a script. And when we got to the meeting, Tommy said, Mike's got a great script. So sci fi tell him. And I just sat there, you know, stuttering, and then pitched the story. He said, You got to give this to me so I can read it on the way home. And I said, Well, I just have to finish the last 25 pages. And then went home and wrote the thing in a month and sent it out to him. And that's how that, that whole deal, started. So it's been a good journey so far.

Dave Bullis 57:36
Yeah, man, that's really cool. Mike, I was actually going to ask you, you know, I know the hatred it has, you know, completed has been released yet. But I was going to ask you, you know, what's your, what's the next project coming up and, but so you read my mind on that one Mike?

Michael G. Kehoe 57:50
Well, that's, that's actually not my next, that's not my next one. I mean, I wrote, I just finished writing, you know, as soon as, as soon as, as soon as I finished the hatred, you know, we went into post. I was, you know, running out of money, and I got a phone call from a good friend of mine who said, Hey, I need you. I know you worked on Mission Impossible in Dubai, and you oversaw some things. I'd like you to come on this movie and do it. And I said, I said, what? You know, where is it? Where are you? And he said, Budapest. And I said, Yeah, I'm there. And I went out there to work on this little movie called Blade Runner 2049, and had a great experience there. I met some incredible filmmakers from all parts of Europe and Germany and Budapest. And Budapest is an incredible place to shoot films, and it can double for like England and France and Russia and Romania all these other places. So while I was there, I got inspired again for another horror movie and a horror thriller, and I started writing. And as soon as I got back home, I got into it, and on the weekends, while I was working there, I just kept writing and writing and writing. And so I came back completed the script, and I'm pushing that now to be done, to shoot it this summer before, Kevin, I just think that, you know, this is something that I want to do and try to get out. We're going to try to approach a couple of companies that I built relationships with, you know that are out there, so hopefully that'll be the next thing. It's called among the damned.

Dave Bullis 59:32
Then again, it's good thing. I asked that because i thought i i, because I wanted to make sure we I knew exactly what you were doing next. Because, again, I think the story of hush and the hatred is fantastic, Mike, and I think, you know, if there's one thing that people can take away just from this interview, it's just that, you know, you've been out there hustling, You know, you didn't wait for an opportunity. You were always out there. You know, number one, you know knowing your craft, like you were saying, you know, knowing you know how to do your job to the best of your abilities, and knowing you know, knowing it inside and out, and also always being, you know, being a being professional like you said. You didn't say to that person, hey, you know you're supposed to do my movie blah, blah, you know, being professional and being flexible at all times, you know, to how things change in the movie business, because they do. They do change all the time. And you know, and obviously always making sure you have opportunities, you know, again, just by hustling.

Michael G. Kehoe 1:00:41
Well, you know, a lot of my friends you know are pretty amazed, because I never give up, you know, and that's the one thing that I think that was instilled upon me from my parents. But I got to give credit to the people like yourself because of your support for this. And I think what's important for people to follow you and do that is this whole journey that the you know, filmmakers like myself go on, you know, you give this opportunity for other people to hear it, to inspire them, and it's because of people like you who really have a force in this industry to help people get along. Because this is what lights a fire in someone when they're sitting in their in their little apartment, they're listening to this, and they find out, hey, this is something I want to do. I can relate to that it's not just because of the filmmaker saying that. It's that person who's putting it out there, and your love for films and your love for this industry, and what you can do to connect that and you being a filmmaker yourself, to go out there. I just think that this is, this is something that's important and also needs to be addressed for people to follow you and and see the different layers that it takes to make a movie. And so I thank you for for your job and what you do, because without know about some of us,

Dave Bullis 1:02:03
Well, you know, and I thank you very much for saying that, Mike, you know, the whole impetus for me creating this was, you know, there's a couple reasons why. The main reason was, you know, I, you know, for people who listen this podcast since episode one, you know, almost three years ago. Now, I almost I started this podcast. Oh, my God, it's been three years, but, but people who've listened to this since, since episode one, they know I started this podcast for one, the number one reason was I got passed over for a promotion that was rightfully mine and my former day job. And two, I, you know, I've always liked the concept of podcasting, and I always liked the idea of doing something like this, and it was just hard to get, you know, people to get together. When I used to the podcast podcast, because I did it with a group of people. But now I just do it myself in my office, and I get to interview really cool people like yourself Mike.

Michael G. Kehoe 1:02:59
Well, listen, like I said, you give us an opportunity. I'm really excited about getting the hatred out there, because the cast, when you see the women in this cast, you know, have done an amazing job, the acting is spot on. I am so fortunate to have actresses that are just so talented. And some of them, you some of them, you know, I mean, in particular, Amanda Wiss, who is in a nightmare on street in Silverado, to some of the other actresses that haven't been out there that much, but they've, they've done some incredible work. And I don't want to you know if I, if I mentioned and I mentioned Amanda, but if I start mentioning one and I don't mention the others, I'll feel kind of guilty. But when the when you go and see this movie, just I want people to to watch the performances of these actresses, because it's, it's their movie as well, and they pull it off so well that it makes the film. It really makes the film. And that's, that's one of the great things of having, you know, an opportunity to work with great actors and actresses, I will say that, you know. And this is kind of, kind of, you know, showing off. But David Naughton is in our film, who played the lead in American Royal from London. And the wonderful thing about having David and Amanda is they only worked one day, and I became friends with them, friends with Amanda prior to that, but creating a relationship with actors and as friends, and knowing that you can put them in their movies and they can pull it off, is the same thing that Scorsese does with De Niro. And I'm not saying I'm not putting myself in the same category as Scorsese, by any means, but I think that having a relationship with incredibly talented actors is so important that you can rely on them just a phone call and say, I need you and they're going to be there to play in your sandbox.

Dave Bullis 1:04:56
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, you know, and that is something to ever. Relationship with certain actresses and actors and and being able to develop, you know, that that's something to make. When I used to watch movies, I used to sometimes wonder why certain directors would always work with the same actors and the same and sometimes they're the same crew. And now I get it. I believe me having, you know, made it, made movies, made short films. You know, I get it now because you get used to working in a certain style, and, you know, if I hire the same person, it's a certain style, if it's my style. And that's why we work, you know, and then we are the combination, the sort of synergy of what we do together helps us both out. You know, that's why, you know, Tim Burton always works with Johnny Depp. That's why, you know, like you said, Scorsese works, always works with Robert De Niro. And you go down the list, you know, Quentin Tarantino always works with Samuel Jackson and now Christoph Voss, it's just they bring out the best in each other.

Michael G. Kehoe 1:05:49
Well, you know, when I did second dance at the last minute, I cast a friend of mine who's a bartender. That's a great actor. His name is Brad Wilson, and he gave such a such an incredible performance, and was so dedicated, he didn't have the script until that morning, and he gave 100% to this, to the script. I put him in two other films after that, and you know, he's just a chameleon. He's He's a great actor, and I think that I'm fortunate to have somebody like that in my back pocket, where I could pick up the phone and call him up and say, Hey, Brad, I need you to do this. I have the same relationship with Jack McGee. If you know Jack McGee is Jack McGee was the father in the fighter. He was in a TV series called God the fire. The Fire TV series, it's gonna kill me that I can remember not rescue me, it was rescue me. I think it was,

Dave Bullis 1:06:44
I was actually gonna say that,

Michael G. Kehoe 1:06:46
Yeah, and Jack has been a friend. He's been in a few few films of mine. And I just, you know, I we're friends. I just call him up, and he always says to me, Kia, what are you doing? What's going on? Am I going to work with you? And having a talented actor that likes that's like, that, that supports you is worth its weight in gold, and so I really want to express to other actors create relationships. Don't you know? It's great to know about camera and there was a, there was a, there's a great statement that was made, I believe it was Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon at the Academy Awards, and when they were giving an award out to directors, they said, there are directors that know everything about the human element and nothing about camera. There are directors that know everything about camera and nothing about the human element. And I think that it's important to know about both. So when you get on on the set and you're talking to an actor, you need to speak their language in order to get the performance that you want. When you talk to your DP, you need to speak their language to get to capture those moments. And I'll never forget, I was working with a stunt man who was a director years ago, and there's a lot of very talented stunt directors that are now becoming great filmmakers, but this guy in particular, I'll never forget what he said. He says, let's hurry up with this dialog so we can go flip the car. And I think when you have that attitude, you miss the essence of what filmmaking is all about, and how to bring out a great story. So create a relationship with actors and and learn their language. You know, if you have to sit through acting classes or whatever and watch them create, that's important?

Dave Bullis 1:08:32
Yeah, it's when someone says something like that, you know, like, Let's race through these lines so we can flip the car. You know, it's they don't realize that you have to sort of earn those things. And what I mean by earning the car crash or earning the, you know, the kill in a slasher movie, because you have to build up these characters, so we actually care about what happens to them. So if they do are in a car accident, or do flip their car, or what have you, we as the audience are actually invested in their in their journey. And these aren't just sort of moments that are happening for the sake of them happening, but they're actually happening for a reason in the site inside this story,

Michael G. Kehoe 1:09:05
Yeah. I mean, look exactly and story, it's all about the story. There's some incredible stunt men. And the stunt men of today, you know, that are extremely talented, are like scientists, because they measure out things, they want to make sure it's there. And they're also great actors. I have some some friends of mine that are great stuntmen, that are incredible actors, and they pay attention to story. So I think a lot of has changed over the years, and and the business is evolving. And so we learn every day. I mean, I don't I don't know it all. I'm learning every day. I learn something new about the business. And you know how it changed from film to digital, and how all this process that you go through in this journey teaches you something about about, you know, how the process is, how the business is, but one thing that remains the same is telling a story, and that's what's most important.

Dave Bullis 1:10:07
Yeah, the story is always, always the most important element in all this, because, you know, the cinematography, we tell a story and everything you know, like you know, we've been talking for, you know, for about an, you know, about an hour five, I guess you know. So just in closing, is there anything we didn't talk about that maybe you wanted to or is there anything or maybe it was something you just wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation.

Michael G. Kehoe 1:10:31
Well, I mean, listen, listen, I would love to to stay in touch with you and and do another one of these anytime you want. I am speaking at the geek Fest in Long Beach on the 18th with Ivana cadaver Amanda Wiss and Jessica Cameron. So, you know, I think I just, you know, I just, I want to make sure that that filmmakers, you know, take the right path and and we can all help each other. You know, in this business, I think that's one of the great things about how we, you know, if someone does a poor job, you don't want to tear them apart and knock them down. You just want to support them and help them get to the next, the next level. So I'm, you know, I want to, I want to continue my relationship with you and get the word out and share the things that I do with with the audience.

Dave Bullis 1:11:20
And I will link to, you know, Michael's appearance at Geekfest. I'm going to link to anything in the show notes where people can check that out, because I know, like you were, we were saying you are doing a panel, you know, with Jesse Cameron, and you're and I want to make sure that. And again, you know, as we talk about Geekfest, we were both friends with Bill Ostrov as well. We have a lot of mutual friends. Mike, yeah, and I want to stay in contact with you as well. And for everyone who's interested in checking out all of Michael's work and also checking out you know him, him at this panel convention, I'm gonna put that in the show notes. And Michael, do you have any websites that you want to give out to anyone?

Michael G. Kehoe 1:11:59
Well, you know, I mean, you can follow me on Instagram, which is M, I, K, E, H O E, dot, LL11, one, and, or, I'm sorry, it's M, I, K, E, H, O, E, 1, 1, on Instagram and Twitter is at Mikey Kehoe. And, you know, we have a Facebook page which is called Alice the hatred, which is slowly getting attention, and would people go out? You know, we've had a number of titles for that, so it's now called the hatred, I believe, unless there's some changes. So those sites, yeah, follow me on it, because I'll be posting some information and and obviously the journeys and things that I'm doing. So hopefully I can give a boost up to someone else.

Dave Bullis 1:12:45
And that is, that is fantastic, Mike, and I always like that attitude about, you know, helping each other out. I think that's what it's really about, is helping each other out. It too many, you meet too many filmmakers who become, you know, either they're closed, guarded or jaded from from even from the onset sometimes, and they're just like, No, no. It's all about, you know. And it's just, you know, they don't want to, and I've seen them burn out as well. And I could do a whole podcast about that, you know. But it's always great to meet people like you, Mike, in this in this industry, who are really talented, but they also are so willing to help out others. It's just, you know, it's just phenomenal.

Michael G. Kehoe 1:13:23
Well, you know, I think, I think, you know, there are great, great companies out there that are giving filmmakers an opportunity. One that comes to mind right away is Blumhouse. And Blumhouse has, you know, a number of divisions, Blumhouse, tilt, blumhouse.com and the films that they make, especially in the horror genre, they allow their filmmakers to make their movie. And I am, I am so drawn to that company that that's the attitude that I have about wanting to help people and wanting to go out, that if you're ever, if you're if you're a writer or, you know, a filmmaker that's creating, you know, something in that genre, and mind you, they're do also doing, they did Benji, which is the old dog movie, you know, from from the 80s, and they did whiplash in a number of films. That, to me, is, is what it's all about. That company really puts themselves out there to to give a shot to people. So hopefully we'll all, we'll all be doing that.

Dave Bullis 1:14:20
Yeah, Blumhouse is fantastic. You know, I'm always interested to see what they're up to, and it they're just great. And, yeah, you know, yeah, there's not enough I could say about them and what they're what they're up to. And, you know, Mike, I want to say, you know, thank you for coming on everyone. You could always find me. Dave bulls.com Again, everything Michael and I talked about on the show when I put in the show notes at Dave bulls.com Twitter, it's at Dave underscore Bullis, Michael, I want to say thank you so much for coming on,

Michael G. Kehoe 1:14:50
Dave. Keep the dream alive.

Dave Bullis 1:14:52
I'm going to do my best buddy, and I wish you the best of luck with everything. And you know what, anytime you want to come back on, you let me know, and we're gonna make it work. And I'm gonna, I want to, definitely want to have you back on

Michael G. Kehoe 1:15:05
Great my friend. Take care!

Dave Bullis 1:15:07
Take care. My friend, Bye, bye.

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BPS 423: From Instagram Mysteries to Indie Horror The Bold Experiments of Joe Kowalski

June 12, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

When the winds of curiosity rustle the mind and stir the soul, they often bring with them storytellers—those rare beings who don’t just recount events but breathe life into them. On today’s episode, we welcome Joe Kowalski, a young filmmaker from Cleveland whose creative spirit dances between shadows and light, weaving stories through film, mystery, and innovation.

Joe Kowalski is a filmmaker, game designer, and storyteller whose projects explore new ways to experience narrative across media.

In this profound conversation, we journey through Joe’s unique endeavor—a Stephen King “Dollar Baby” short film adaptation titled I Am the Doorway. What begins as a seemingly simple homage to the horror maestro evolves into a lesson in humility, time management, and artistic vision. Joe’s choice of story, influenced by a girlfriend and the limitations of a shoestring budget, was no accident. It was a study in resourcefulness—making the most of what one has while honoring a source of immense creative power. “You have to know what you can realistically accomplish,” Joe said. And that, my friends, is wisdom beyond years.

Joe didn’t stop at simply retelling a tale. He reframed the horror classic into a new cinematic experience, wrapping Stephen King’s suspense within a short film festival format. This wasn’t about profit or prestige—it was about community, experimentation, and delivering value to the audience. His respect for the time and effort of collaborators is unwavering: “That’s the biggest thing they can give you,” he mused. And in a world obsessed with the bottom line, such reverence is sacred.

But his imagination doesn’t remain tethered to the screen. Joe designed an interactive Instagram murder mystery game—an elegant rebellion against linear storytelling. Through a labyrinth of tags and grids, players navigate a digital whodunit, one clue at a time. Each piece of the game reveals not just a path to the culprit, but a deeper truth about human curiosity and our hunger for connection. It’s a digital scavenger hunt of intention, ingenuity, and play. A new mythology told in swipes and likes.

Lest one believe that his path has been frictionless, Joe admits to the chaos of low-budget production, the stress of festivals, and the heartbreak of seeing good work shelved for lack of fit. Still, he views each project as a sculptor views stone—not yet perfect, but perfecting. His year-long film PRISM is another feather in this vibrant cap—a color-coded exploration of identity and emotional entanglement told through color-isolated cinematography. Here is a man who does not merely shoot films; he paints them.

Throughout the conversation, what resounds most is Joe’s blend of youthful energy and ancient patience. He reveres the creative process, yet he’s unafraid to let go when the time calls for it. Whether planning podcasts with friends or studying the rise of VR storytelling, Joe doesn’t merely chase the next trend—he studies its rhythm, its heartbeat, and asks how it might elevate human experience. “You have to care about the story even when you don’t feel like caring about it,” he says—and that is the quiet devotion of an artist in bloom.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:50
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:55
On this episode, we have a Cleveland, Ohio based filmmaker who recently made I am the doorway, a Stephen King Dollar Baby short film, and he's hitting the film festival circuit with another film of his called PRISM, with guest Joe Kowalski. No problem. And remember, the first time you were here, I butchered your last name and I called you something completely different. I don't remember what it was, and I compared it to a deal the team when John Travolta called, you know, again, he called her a delta,

Joe Kowalski 2:24
Right! I do remember this.

Dave Bullis 2:29
Yeah, it was, I was like, What the hell happened there? I was like, I knew his last name, and I called you something else. I was like, Wait, what the hell did I just do there? So I understand how John Travolta feels, but, but, but, but, since you've been on here, Joe, I think you were episode 84 I want to say, so that was actually, you know what, Joe, we're getting close to over 100 episodes ago, because I'm up to, like, one, yeah, right. It's like 160 whatever I'm up to now. And, you know, it's just, you know, it's almost 100 episodes ago. We're like, we're like, less than 20 away. And so, you know, Joe, I wanted to reconnect with you, because you're always up to something really cool. And I wanted to ask about a couple of things, you know, and as we sort of get rolling on this so, you know, since we've last talked, you've done, one, you've done $1 Baby Stephen King short film. Two, you've graduated from college, and three, you have started an Instagram murder mystery type interactive game. So I'm probably missed a couple other things. So I wanted to ask about all that, all that stuff, because I think it's awesome, and particularly about your Stephen King short story, the Dollar Baby. For those listeners, I've touched on this too. I had, I actually got $1 Baby done once. And I'll tell just real quick. I don't want to eat up all the time. Joe with talking about me, I'm trying to talk to you about your stuff, but you know, I actually did the Dollar Baby too, and I did in the death room. We actually shot an Eastern State Penitentiary here in Philadelphia. I got us a location for a pretty discounted rate. They wouldn't, they they also just let us skip down on the insurance bond. We actually had one, but it wasn't, wasn't the one that they usually recommend. It was, or ask for. It was a was a lower one that allowed us to, sort of, you know, make the production a little cheaper. We shot for that in that in there for like, a day. We shot at Ridley Creek State Park, here, right down the street from me, for here in media, and we kind of like put all this together, and at the end of it all the the editor just lost all the footage. And when about it, they were like, they were like, are you gonna sue that guy? And I said, he's a lunatic, as he came recommended to me by somebody, right? And we, were working with him, and he just kept sitting on the footage. I was like, What do you because he, you know, what happened with Joe? He had a Facebook addiction, and he would just scroll on Facebook rather than doing and I kept saying, I'm like, Just give me the footage back and I'll go to somewhere else. Well, finally, he got it together and we were gonna make all these adjustments. We were so close to having the final product done. And then he sends me this message that his Mac was dying. And I said, Look, I hope you pay for it. And then he's like, Oh, well, I don't know what I'm gonna do about this and blah, blah, this or that. And basically, that was the end of it. And he said that although his Mac finally died, and all the footage went with it, and I couldn't get a hold of him, you know, a lot of crazy editors out there. So honestly, here's my advice. Anyone listening to this, always have a backup of your footage, because my DP just gave him. My DP just gave him the actual fucking hard drive with everything on it, and said, Here you go, edit the footage. And I was like, Dude, I go. I can't believe you did that without giving it to me first and letting me copy all this crap, but, but, that was my Dollar Baby adventure. It's another horror story that I have about filmmaking, Joe. It's somebody else pointed out. They're like, Dave, all your stories are all end in, like, heartbreak and, and, you know, down on March, stuff like that. And I go, Yeah, it's the truth, man, because I have so many crazy people, but, uh, but, but, no, but, I want to hear about your experience. Joe, you know, how did you pick the story that you picked? You know, What story did you actually pick? You know, how did you shoot all this? How did you shoot everything? You know, being as it's, you know, it's very limited to being what you can do, because obviously you can't get investors for it, stuff like that. So you have to kind of work in a very shoestring budget, unless you have a ton of money, you know what I mean. But I want to hear all this about, all about this jokes. I'm fascinated. So What story did you pick from, from the Dollar Baby collection?

Joe Kowalski 6:32
And just to, just to clarify for the audience, the Dollar Baby setup is something that Stephen King has done whereby he has a select number of his short stories, a lot of older ones in the 70s and early 80s that are available to use, as long as you pay $1 to him. So there's probably about maybe 20 short stories on the list. And it's really cool, because people like me who don't have huge budgets and stuff, can technically make even King film without having to pay ridiculous sums of money. So I had chosen I am the doorway. This kind of came about because the girl I was dating at the time was a huge Stephen King fan, and she had heard of this before, and I had heard of it before, and we were putting together a film called PRISM that I that I released last year, that was a half an hour film. And we were thinking like, Well, half an hour is kind of short to bring in a whole audience and stuff. So we ended up doing is we kind of made a film festival event, and we featured some other short films from around the world in this theater in Cleveland. And I am the doorway, which is the one we ended up going with, was one of those we it was kind of another way to kind of make the ticket worth it for people you know and and kind of give them a full experience. So it was chosen by the girl I was dating at the time. We went through a whole bunch of them, though, and we read a bunch of them. We were trying to figure out, like, what is something that we could do having almost no budget and having only about a month's worth of time before this big event. And what we did was choose that one, because a lot of what the supernaturalness, as you see in a lot of Stephen King short stories, was kind of taking place off screen, and you were seeing more the results of what was happening, because you get this astronaut who comes back to Earth and starts getting these eyes that pop up on his body. And we kind of created a framework story where we had these two guys talking in a bar about this whole situation and and they kind of tie into the story. So it was, it was kind of cool doing that, because typically, I'm used to starting stories from scratch and building upon those and and working upon that with friends, but it was really interesting to take someone else's work, especially someone as you know, prolific as Stephen King, and try to adapt that To like a 10 minute short film.

Dave Bullis 9:22
Yeah, you see, I just as a filmmaker standpoint, I'm sorry, as a filmmaker standpoint, I just kind of think, even just trying to do something like that, Joe, we have an astro come back down to earth. I mean, it just sounds expensive. We're just wearing my producer hat, you know, even with doing with with death room, you know, I had that whole prisons, you know, a location, and even just paying for that, I was like, you know, what they're gonna charge us, you know, whatever they charge us. It was, you know, I think probably a grand or something, even for that day, even back then, I was like, Jesus Christ, a grand. And, you know, we got to make sure everything's set, so many problems that you know or and ended up being my fault because I to do this. I listened to too many people, and that was my fault for doing it. I've learned a lot of things on each and every project. That project was me listening to too many people, and I tried to sort of do everything that everyone was recommending. And I just, I, you know, we had, we had too much time being wasted, and there was a lot of production issues that could have been ironed out if I had not listened to all those people. If you know what I'm trying to say, like I that didn't even need to be there, that we could have just went. We went, we went, you know what? We don't even need this fucking thing. Fuck it, and let's just get rid of it. You know?

Joe Kowalski 10:46
Yeah, and I've worked with directors who have skewed one way or the other, and, and some of them are very well meaning, but yeah, you do have some people who will literally waste all the time on set. They see it just like, like, a party, you know? They got all their friends together. They're gonna, oh, wouldn't be cool if we did this and they take an hour. Oh, we gotta find a rope and takes another hour. Let's, let's just eat. We're gonna eat people like that. And then you do have the people who are like so anal about trying to, this is my masterpiece, you know, I gotta get every single detail right. Oh, more of a tiny little smirk in that performance and stuff. And so, one thing that I've learned over the years, and I'm trying, to always get better at, is finding the balance between like, I want this set to be enjoyable. I want people to be having a good time and not feel like they're miserable doing this, but at the same time, we also do have to keep, like, a tight schedule on this. And I there are some things I do want to be kind of specific about, and that I'm very certain that I went but I also have to know when it when to compromise on that, like if it's not going to work out, find another way around. If someone has a great suggestion, be willing and open to all suggestions if they're going to make the story better or help move things along better for everybody. So it is a really hard balance. It is very tough. So I can understand falling into that trap entirely, because I've been there before.

Dave Bullis 12:10
Yeah, it was funny too, because, well, funny now, but, but it was just because, you know, somebody was, who was a worked at, at a film festival, contacted me, and he, he actually was a local Philly guy, and we met, and I'll never forget this. I forget his name, but I never forget where we met. We actually met, and he asked me to meet up with him at the at the Philly anarchist paper headquarters. And I said, first off, I didn't even know Phil Yeah, I didn't even know Philadelphia had an anarchist newspaper. I didn't even know when anarchist newspaper was a thing we walk in, Joe, and I'm not kidding you, there's a big sign on the wall that says, Please no drug use allowed or sorry, please do not use drugs while on the premises. And in parentheses, yes, this includes weed and parentheses. And I, and I'm just laughing, going, you have to put a board up like that. Like, what the fuck is going on in here? Oh, man, I started talking to this guy. And as this guy was talking and, I mean, I'm sure he met, well, like, I'm like, first off, the neighborhood was terrible, and I'm sitting there going, Why the hell are we even like, Why? Why did I have to meet for them? This is another thing, Joe that always kind of like grinds my gears. People always ask to meet me in person, or they want to meet up for coffee or something. I go, why? Why don't we just do a Skype message? Or, why don't you just shoot me an email? Why do we have to meet face to face? Like, I don't get it, like, honestly, I gotta waste my time, get put gas in my car, drive up all the way into the city or wherever the hell you are, and then we gotta meet. And it never, nothing ever gets resolved, because we just go back and forth. And it's the same thing with that Stephen King Guy. We could have done that over a Skype interview with Sharon screen share and had the same exact thing. And we both could have just been in the comfort of our own homes. It just, you know what I mean? It just, I just, I'm not saying I'm like, gonna become some obese shut in or anything like that, like the mom from Gilbert Grape, but, but, but, well, I'm getting there, though, Joe. But, like, to me, if you're gonna meet somebody, you should have a clear objective, because everyone's I'm at the point in my life now where I just think time is money now, and I'm always, you know, when I was I mean, how old are you Joe, 24?

Joe Kowalski 14:19
I'm only 22 I'm a baby,

Dave Bullis 14:23
22 years young, and I'm sorry, and I'm cursing up a storm at you, sir. But okay, so you're 22 so I'm 10 years older than you are, and so basically I'm at the point now Joe, where, like, I've become, like, That guy I always didn't want to be where I'm just like, you know, everything's time is money, you know. But when I was when I was your age, Joe, again, I'm sounding old as shit right now, when I was your age, Joe, I actually, I would go out and I would go on random film sets, I would meet new people, and I would just, you know what, I'm just gonna treat everything like an adventure. I'm gonna treat everything like a learning experience, and I'm just gonna go out there and. Going to see whatever happens. And when I made my Stephen King Dollar Baby, I think I was 24 or 25 and then I used that experience to parlay that into making a TV pilot, which I won't go into because, you know, listeners of this show know that story inside and out, but with with the whole with that, what I did there was, I was always looking at everything as like a learning experience. And when, you know, meeting all these different people on the course of actually making this Stephen King Dollar Baby, I've met so many interesting people for both good and bad. But like, you know, I think, as a filmmaker, when you're that age, you know, 22 23 24 you know, you have to go out there and see all these, you know, make all these mistakes, and then when you're like, 28 29 that's kind of like you're, you're starting to be getting your prime. That's the age Quentin Tarantino make Reservoir Dogs. I think that was the age when, when Rodriguez made Rebel Without a crew, El Mariachi. I'm not sure. Though, that's the age where Damien Chazz made whiplash, and I, you know what I mean, so right? I kind of look at those experiences as kind of molding me, because that's what I'm sure that's the whole point of what I'm trying to say here is, you know, and you know, treating this as knowing the when these opportunities come down, knowing what is going to be a good opportunity and what's gonna just be a waste of your time. It's almost like doing me like, when somebody like, when a producer comes to you and says, Hey, listen, I got this. You know, a producer, quote, unquote, comes to you and says, Hey, listen, Joe, I gotta, I got this, you know, whole, whole TV pilot ready to roll. I need someone to direct it. Would you want to direct it? And in your at first, you're like, Okay, I'll talk to you about it. And you start to meet, and you go, Oh, crap, there's so many holes in this. It's unbelievable. You know what I mean? You start, you start seeing between the lines, if you know what I'm trying to say,

Joe Kowalski 16:49
Right! I think a big part of it too, is that I think time is the most important thing for everybody on set, not just because of how the schedule is and everything, but ultimately, especially on an independent film, and you don't have the ability to pay people, that's the biggest thing they're giving you, and that's the biggest thing they can give you, is just that time to be there and help make your thing come to life. And so I just find it so incredibly disrespectful when people don't value that time and don't take into account that, you know, these people don't have to be there. They're not, you know, they're not being paid to be there or anything. They don't have any obligation to you, other than the sense that maybe they care about this project too, or maybe they want to see you succeed. So I definitely don't, you mean when it comes to a lot of the points that you've made. And I I just, I try to respect that time, and I want people to get a full experience out of it. So like, like I said when I was trying to put together this festival event, I wanted to make sure that if people were going to come and and we didn't have a set price, but we just were kind of taking donations in general, but people are going to come and donate money. I want them to come out seeing like, an hour and 15 minutes of really top notch short films and and it's tough when you have friends who come up and say, Hey, can you include my film in this? And I go, I don't think I can. It doesn't quite meet the expectations of what we're trying to do with this. It's tough to be able to do that, and to be able to say like, you know, and I, I think you worked hard on this, but you know, deep down, you know that it's not quite the quality that you want, and it's a hard thing to do that, because you want to make everyone happen. You want to have all those contexts. But you're right. You do have to start getting more selective about how you spend your time and and what you choose to work on, right?

Dave Bullis 18:42
Yeah, you know, somebody once told me, Joe, that life is is all about creating a bubble around yourself and you, and you start to understand what you like and don't like inside of that bubble, and anything and everybody that's not within that confines, you push out of that bubble. And basically that's, you know what I mean. And I started to realize that over the years, and when I, when I meet people, and it's just like, hey, you know, because I, because I do this podcast, and I'll get an email, probably, maybe once, I don't, maybe once a week, saying, Hey, Dave, would you ever, you know, if you're ever up in New Jersey or in New York, or you want to come in Philly or whatever, why don't you come and we'll have coffee or whatever? And I just go, You know what? I just don't know, why? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to sound like a jerk. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I really don't like, I don't want to be like, Oh, I'm Dave bulls, but no, I'm just like, you know, why would you want to talk to me? Like, what, you know what I mean? And it's just like, I want, I want to make sure that we're each getting something out of it. And it's not just going to be, you know, turning to a pitch meeting, which, by the way, Joe has happened. I've had people meet me and they go, they're just like, hey, yeah. And there's like, Hey, Dave, you know, would you want to join this project? And I go, No, like, when they he was heartbroken. He goes, he looks at me, he goes, why not? And I go, Well, it's and it's like you were just saying you you try to, you know, you want to see people succeed, but you just want to. You know, you want to say, Well, it's because it's not going to work, dude. There's so many holes in this, in production, like, Hey, can we can we shoot a and you and I talked about this before, about shooting period pieces on a budget, like, hey, I want to shoot a civil war. I want to shoot a Civil War period piece with 500 bucks. Oh, okay, good luck. You know,

Joe Kowalski 20:34
I know what. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And you get the you get a lot of that too, and, and, you know what, if they do have a substantial amount of money, then those things are realistic, but otherwise I that's a big part of it too, is knowing what realistically can accomplish. And that's something I always try to take into mind when I when I write, the projects that I do, is I know the resources I have to work with primarily. I know the people I have to work with primarily, and and be smart about how you do it, because people will be so much more impressed if you make a really good film within your limits than if you try to reach too far. And that doesn't say that doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge yourself, and that doesn't mean that you know you might throw in something that might that might be a little more expensive, it might be a little bit more complicated, that you're going to have to figure out. You got to give yourself those challenges, but at the same time, don't, like you said, try to make like, a period piece of like this crazy futuristic sci fi, when you know that realistically, if you try to do that, you're only going to get like 20% of the way there, and people are just going to see it as a little silly,

Dave Bullis 21:44
Yeah and it's just going to be, you know, if you want to do, yeah, do all that stuff. And, you know, hey, do you have somebody that knows or rents period piece costumes? Because five, you know, even if I bumped up to $5,000 budget, like, you're going to eat through that in no time. Just, just the setting up the world, and it is gonna, and you're right, it's gonna end up looking just silly, you know, and it's just gonna end up looking, just look crazy. I'll give you another example, and then we'll get back to what you were talking about. Again. I don't wanna, I wanted to talk about your stuff, but like, you know, I had a guy before come to me, and he wanted to shoot a zombie film for, like, I think he said, like, 500 bucks. And I said, you know, it's possible. Because I said, if you look at Colin, and I actually had the director and writer, Mark V Prince, on this podcast, and we talked about how he did it for 50 bucks or and really did he shot for 50 bucks, shot a full length zombie feature called Colin, which is actually really freaking cool. And basically, with Colin, it's a he get this guy gets bit by zombie in the beginning of the film, and he becomes a zombie, and for the rest of the film, you follow this shambling zombie throughout the rest of the film. It's actually really cool. And in fact, the fact that he shot it, yeah, honestly, it was a phenomenal idea, and the fact that he got it, did it for 50 bucks. Makes even better, because I told him, I said it, Mark, if you had shot this for, like, let's just say somebody gave you a million dollars. I said you would have shot yourself in the foot. And you know what I mean, because you would have been like, holy shit. Now we can have a building explode, you know what I mean? And I think that's sometimes, you know, as again, we were talking about, you know, you got to weigh your opportunities, but, but Mark, you know, he was able to do whatever he wanted because he, you know, obviously 50 bucks is 50 bucks, but, um, but anyways. But, you know, as we talk about that, that guy was someone with a zombie feature. He wanted to shoot it for 500 bucks. And he basically was, was, like, real adamant about shooting this thing. And Joe, I am not kidding around with you. He wanted to shoot it in at three o'clock in the morning. He wanted to shoot this one scene at three o'clock in the morning, and I'm looking on Google Maps, and I said, What's this building right across the street from where we're gonna film? He goes, Oh, that's the police station. I said, are we gonna have permits? He goes, No, no. This is all gonna be guerrilla stuff. I said, so we're gonna run across from the police station with the army of zombies, and you don't think anyone's gonna say anything. And he looks at me, he goes, No, do you think they will? I go, Yeah, dude, I think the police are gonna look out their window and go, Hey, here's somebody filming without a permit. Yeah, oh, boy. So yeah, it's stuff like that, man. But you know, as as we go back to talking about your stuff, Joe, so what were some of the biggest production issues you had on making your dollar baby? I mean, did you start a crowdfunding campaign for it?

Joe Kowalski 24:28
No, like I said, this was kind of more of a side thing that we could show off for the festival. So we actually shot pretty much most of it all in one weekend. And one of the locations was a restaurant that I do some media work for that I got permission, then we filmed at a beach that was public, you know, just public property, and, yeah, it was just a lot of like, again, like using your resources and saying. Here I have this. So why don't I throw this in here, you know, and working with it and making it work within the stories context, a far bigger project was the film prism that I mentioned that we were kind of showcasing around this whole festival event. And that was that film basically took a year from the first first typing it to actually showing it off. And I could talk a little bit about that, if you'd like me to at all.

Dave Bullis 25:33
Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Kowalski 25:35
Basically, the movie is about six people from two different families, and each character is represented by a separate color. So that while the most the film you see is in black and white, when that character is on screen, you see their color pop out of the black and white. So like, if you remember, like, in Schindler's List, there's like, the girl red dress and and that photo effect comes up a lot, you know, you see, like, yellow highlights come out of a, you know, a picture of somebody or something like that. We basically did that with the whole movie. So like, when you our character Green was on screen, his shirt would come out because he was wearing green. But also the trees in the background, you would see them. And that was a very interesting challenge, from a storytelling standpoint, from a technical standpoint, because all that, I think if you're going to do something like that, each of the colors have to have a meaning to them. So that was something we were very certain about. And also the story kind of weaves in and out of these characters lives and how they relate to each other. And this person's cheating on this person, and this person's it has a crush on this person and and one thing I really had to learn from this film was really to just outline everything. And that's not something I'm very used to doing. I kind of like diving in and then just seeing where it goes. And sometimes that works, but it's a lot of work after the fact to try to make that into something cohesive, but particularly in relation to the families, we had to, like, sit down and write out a family tree and and figure out the relation of each character to the other. And that was something that was kind of difficult, because then we would say, well, this doesn't really work, because this character wouldn't interact with this person. It was a very unusual process for this whole movie, and we aren't really able to show it off yet because we're trying to get in some film festivals, and we haven't had any luck yet, but we're gonna keep trying. But the trailer is online, if anyone wants to check it out, if you look up like prism 2016 or prism short film 2016 or even on my channel, Pogie Joe, that's P, O, G, I, E, Joe. There's a couple trailers on there, so you can kind of get an idea of what I'm talking about with this color thing.

Dave Bullis 27:54
You know, Joe, I actually have some film festivals. I would recommend that you entered into number one being the Delco Film Festival. I think they that would be a good film festival for you to enter it into. That's actually right by my house as well. But if you'd like, I can actually introduce you. I can actually introduce you to the guy who runs it.

Joe Kowalski 28:12
Oh, that'd be, that would be amazing. And you know, if I was ever in that area, we could meet up and have some coffee. And I have this great pitch I want to sell you.

Dave Bullis 28:20
Yeah, yeah, no, go, Joe, no way. No, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, I would see like, like, somebody that I've actually met and talked to. I would be down for that. And the funny the founders Chris Pier miniko, and he's actually been on the podcast before. And Chris is, Chris is a very good guy, and before we got on the podcast, he said to me, he's like, please try not to curse too much, because I'm going to recommend this to my students, and don't tell any weird stories. And I go, that's all I have in life. Is weird stories and cursing. That's it. It's like, you take that away from me. I'm not I'm nothing anymore, right? You're a show. But, yeah, exactly. I'm just, like, a shell of a man. I'm not even, I'm not even my George Costanza self, but I will introduce you to him, and right after this podcast, and I'm sure Chris would love to talk to you about having that film there. And you know, so as you may know, your dollar baby too, because I'll link to everything in the show notes as well everybody. I'll link to the Delco Film Festival and every and Joe's channel and everything else. But when you're talking about, you know, your dollar baby, and you actually just, you shot it into a weekend, did you have any, like, real huge production issues come up that that, like, anything like we were talking about, or anything like, completely unexpected, like, hey, it rained on a Sunday when we thought it was going to be clear skies, anything like that.

Joe Kowalski 29:40
Um, actually, that was surprisingly straightforward. We were actually kind of marveling that it came out as well as it did. And the nice part about it is that the people we cast in it were people that we were considering for the other film prism that were really good, but they just didn't quite fit the parts we were looking for. So we're like, what's a. Capacity that we can use these people we were able to get four of these actors who were really, really good that I still wanted to work with into this film, and, you know, get to spend a couple days filming with them. And the thing about that, it was just basically a skeleton crew of me, my and my, my girlfriend at the time, and so I guess we didn't really have to worry too much about other casting crew members. It wasn't like the other film where we had, like a full cast and everything. It was kind of just us just going at it. And it was, it was almost a fun relief side project after having that massive project, like I said, kind of churning into that for a year. So actually, I'm really, really glad I did the Dollar Baby, because it was just such a nice, like, on what's the word I'm looking for? It wasn't, it wasn't a high level stress thing. It was something that we, we planned out and really just kind of had fun doing.

Dave Bullis 31:12
And, you know, that's something to, you know, I talked to Alex Ferrari about, Indie Film Hustle, and we were talking about that as well where, you know, at some points, and I mean, you you, and it's good that you learn at the age of 22 sometimes when you're making something, you just get this obsession with it, like everything has to be perfect. And then you start, you know, and everything that stress starts to get on you. And then you, by the end of it, you're like, I just can't wait to get this thing done, and I'll never talk about it again. And you're like, and honestly, that's what happened to me in my short, my student film. I By the end Joe, I was like, I just want to get these last shots I'm going to do the last day I was doing my short, my student film, I actually said I everybody. I said, we're doing one take of everything, that's it, and then I'm and then we're just going to call it a day. And everybody was just burned out from it. So we ended up doing more than one take on a lot of stuff. But still, it ended up and we're like, look, that's it. We're done. I don't want to talk about this ever again, but it's, you know, and then you want to do something fun where you just can have fun while you're actually shooting. Because, you know, at the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun, right?

Joe Kowalski 32:15
Yeah, yeah. And that's why I think you really, really have to care about the story you're telling with a big, long term production, because it is very easy to get tired of it, but you have to know deep down that when you finish it, it's going to be so rewarding, because it's a story you really care about. And in a way, you never quite leave it, because even after you show it, at least in my case, we did like crowdfunding, so you still have to go in and, you know, make the DVDs and the blu rays and the bonus material, and you still have to promote it for film festivals if you're trying to get into that whole realm and, and, and then you have to try to get the movie to various people and who didn't get chance to see it, and, and you forever are always kind of attached to it and and Pushing it and trying to get it out to people. So that's the thing. I think that's really important, and that's why I try to come up with good stories that are that I can care about even when I don't feel like caring about them.

Dave Bullis 33:18
Yeah, it is, you know, and when you're trying to have, you know, just a good time with this stuff. And you know, you want to be able to see, you know, have fun while you're making it. And then you see it up on the screen and something everyone can be proud of. And you because, you know, you all did your best. And you it's that feeling you get, you know, you okay, we've, you know, it was, it was a little tough. It was a little frustrating. We're all tired, but we all did our best. And now the the proofs in the pudding. Now it's all up on up on up on screen there. And, you know, some days you watch it and you like, oh, man, there's a mistake. There's another mistake, yeah. And, you know, and sort of, you know that, you know what I mean, like that, that that sort of seeps in after a while too. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think some of the best filmmaking advice is by Mark Duplass, where he said, literally, every weekend, go out and for 100 bucks, make a short film with your friends. He said, don't spend more than 100 bucks, and it'll teach you more about filmmaking. Then, then, then anything else could because you're actually out there doing it, and you're actually out there, actually making stuff. And you can, you know, and if you don't, and honestly, if it sucks, hey, we spent 100 bucks, if it's good you put up on YouTube.

Joe Kowalski 34:23
Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's one thing I'm really grateful for with things like YouTube, is because since I've been doing it for seven years now, fairly regularly, it is that kind of experience where I always am trying new things and and making cool stuff with friends and and you're right, like, you know, even if you're not even spending that much money, you're still getting the experience you're you're making something that can be a sort of time capsule. Like, I remember when I was hanging out with that friend in Cleveland, you know, years, years later. And I think, honestly, I think. That's how I got to where I am. It's not like I'm I'm not trying to brag or anything. I'm not saying that I'm, like, at the top of the top, or anything like that. But I think I've done more than a lot of peers my age because of that experience, and because I've always been interested in creating things, and I can't stop,

Dave Bullis 35:18
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know. And you know you, I think artists more than anybody else, obviously, because they have this desire to create. It's like this desire, this innate desire, you're kind of born with, and you have this desire to create. And sometimes you're when you're younger, you don't really know what it is. You just kind of do it. You know what I mean, whether it be like an arts and crafts or something like that. And then some people pick up a video camera if they're, if they're, you know, if they that's what they're, if their adolescence is filled with, if their parents had a video camera. And you, you sort of, you know, you start doing all this stuff. And, I mean, you know, because you're born with this life, and it's almost like this feeling of, we have to create something of value at all times. And it's something I feel too. And it's almost like this feeling of, okay, I'm here now. What should I do? Well, you know, and if you're an artist, you say, Well, I'm gonna create some more. I got this desire to create. And, you know, maybe other people are like chefs, and they just want to make, make food. And that's that sort of desire to create. And you know, when we start putting all these projects out there. And you know, you've been doing YouTube for seven years, I think that's phenomenal, honestly, Joe, I hope you keep doing it. Because honestly, I you know you're obviously, I know you're getting better. You're getting better and better and better. And also because I just think it's a great outlet too. Because again, like we were just saying, if you make a film for 100 bucks, and if you don't like at the end of the day, hey, look, I spent 100 bucks. But if you do like it, hey, put it on, up on YouTube, and who knows what could happen.

Joe Kowalski 36:49
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's, I think there's a lot of merit you were saying about having those, those projects that are just something fun. And one thing for me too, besides just the YouTube stuff, is also our podcast, which, which you've actually been on once before, and we're not, that's right, yeah, have Yeah, we're not as far along as you are, but we're getting pretty close to 70 episodes. And that's like a fun thing where, like, just me and a few of my friends can get together once a week and just have a good time. And it's not something, you know, I'll have it edited in a couple hours, and you still have to post it and promote it a little bit, get sponsors occasionally and stuff like that. But at the same time, when we're just sitting there recording it, it's just an hour where we can just just have a good time and talk whether it be about deep things or maybe it's just goofy, light hearted stuff. But that's been a really cool project to collaborate with my friends on, because it is that little kind of low stress relieving kind of project.

Dave Bullis 38:00
Yeah, it's, you know, the podcast is fun. You know, that's why I do my podcast. I actually made a promise to myself. I said, the day it stops becoming fun, I'm gonna stop doing it. I've broken that promise a few times. But, you know, I was listening, I was listening to Tim Ferriss one time, and he said, the whole idea, the whole concept of his podcast, was, he goes, I just want to edit it myself, but I want to make editing no more than 10 minutes. He goes, if I had to sit here and edit out stuff, he goes, I hate doing that. He goes, I think it's pointless. He goes. I just want to have a conversation and put it up online. And, I mean, look at his fan base. It's unfreaking believable. And you know that that's kind of like, what I wanted to was, you know, just having, not having to sit here for, you know, four hours a night going, Okay, let me edit this podcast and do all this stuff. I mean, I do do some editing to it, but I try to keep it as pure with the conversation as possible. Most of my editing involves like, I'm gonna boost your maybe I'll boost your audio a little bit, or maybe I'll put like, a de Hiser effect in there, just to sort of take out any sort of like that, that static noise, or D Hummer, something like that, you know. But, yeah, I mean, a podcast is a really cool way just to, sort of, you know, just it's another form of media, because the the the gatekeepers are all non existent. Because, I mean, literally, you can create a podcast with your phone now and upload it to like something like podbean.

Joe Kowalski 39:20
Yeah, absolutely. And I already had all the equipment I needed to to make something like this, because I already have a bunch of audio and video equipment from doing all the other work that I do. So it wasn't like I needed to go out and get some special stuff. I mean, eventually we did get, like, a nicer microphone, and, you know, we'd like to eventually save up to do more live shows, to kind of have the equipment to do that. But, I mean, most of the stuff was already there. All we needed was each other and an idea. So I totally see the appeal and and while I edit it in like 10 minutes, I do take out some things. And you. You know, we bleep out a couple words and stuff like that.

For the most part. It's, it is a pretty low stress project compared to a lot of other things that that I'm trying to do.

Dave Bullis 40:22
And, you know, actually, it's something else I want to talk about too, is, you know, what else are you trying to do? Because I know you did the Instagram murder mystery game. So I want to hear about this because, like, you know, I purposely don't know anything about it, because I wanted to actually talk to you about it. So, like, what is it like a game? It's a game that anybody can play, right?

Joe Kowalski 40:39
Yeah, yeah. As long as long as you have an Instagram account, you should be able to play it. And this is actually I was trying to make a capstone for an interactive media class that I was taking before I graduated this past semester. And you know, a lot of people were doing a lot of cool stuff with, like VR and with like, some interactive videos, but I was trying to think of something that I hadn't tried before, because I had done a little bit of both those things. And I was thinking a lot about how people use Instagram sometimes to create these picture grids of sorts. You know, if you upload the pictures in the right order, all of a sudden, if you go to that person's page, you know, one big picture can be made out of, like, nine pictures. And I just thought that was really cool. So I was wondering, like, Could you do something with that, like, how do you, how do you make something that feels self contained, you know, not like, it's like, like, it's like, you're inside this little experience through Instagram. And so what I did is I used those kind of picture grids, and I used the tagging system, whereas, like, if you, if you tap on a picture, it will come up with, like, a tag and that person's account. So I between those two features. Again, Instagram isn't designed for something like this. But I kind of, yeah, created a game of sorts. And if you go to the account murder mystery game, all one word, people can check that out. I mean, you start out with, like a map of Cleveland, and then if you go to the individual pictures, there are those tags where you can go to other parts of Cleveland and look for clues, and then you get the testimony from all these different characters. And you, if you tap on more of the pictures within those accounts, you can sometimes see these fake characters accounts and just little clues that are hidden throughout. And like I said, the whole idea is that you're trying to solve this, this murder mystery of this, this girl who was killed. So it was a very unusual project, because it's, it's not a linear thing where you just set out like, Okay, I have this scene and I have this scene, but at the same time, I was utilizing a lot of things I had learned from doing video and filmmaking and stuff like that. Whereas, you know, if you set up a schedule a meeting with this person at this time, we're going to record video of them. We're gonna stage a bunch of pictures with them, and then later on, we're moving to this person and and planning it out like that made it a much less scarier process, because I got way in over my head. One of the things I faced too was that for every new Instagram account, you have to have an email address attached to it. So I was just making all these Gmail accounts that were associating with all the different accounts. But then Gmail was like, Hey, you can't make that many accounts. And I was like, okay, so then I went to Yahoo, and I started making all these big Yahoo accounts to try to make more Instagram accounts. And Yahoo was like, Hey, you can't make that many Yahoo accounts, so I ended up going to like seven different email servers to try to create all these fake email accounts. I could make all these different Instagram accounts, which is just yet another way that proves that Instagram wasn't really designed to work like that. You know,

Dave Bullis 43:59
Yeah, definitely, you know, Instagram is cool and all, but there's a lot of things that are like limiting with it. I know they want to make like, for instance, the mobile uploading, you know, I tried to like post things. I can post things to my desktop, but you know what I mean? And sometimes they make it so difficult to just post, you know, stuff like that. But because I, hey, I want to take a photo, and I want to do some stuff to it, then put it then put it to Instagram. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I understand completely. Were you?

Joe Kowalski 44:28
Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's a little bit of a lag. So that's that leads to some of it. I was just gonna say I did run into that problem a lot too, especially given that I have a very cheap phone that doesn't have a whole lot of memory, so anytime I had to, like, download all these pictures, or, God forbid, when I had to download the actual video clips, it would take up so much room on my phone that I would have to, like, delete a bunch of apps on my phone, download the pictures and footage, upload them to this Instagram account, and then re download my apps again.

Dave Bullis 45:03
It's, I mean, I know there was a slight lag on your side. I don't know, you know, I think I might be just our recording host, Skype, but, but with your phone and you had to do back up all that stuff. I've been there before I used to have, like, I bought, when the I bought one of the smart, first smartphones that came out, called the LG revolution, Joe was one of the worst freaking fans I've ever had. It was so I bought it into 2006 or seven. It was little, literally garbage. And I kept having to, like, back up on every everything else I would try to, you know, it was so I've been there, man, but, um, but no, I so it's so, if somebody wanted to, like, solve the murder mystery, Joe. So if I had an Instagram account, let's just say, right now I say I want to check out Joe's murder mystery game. I went to that Insta. I have an Instagram account. I went to your Instagram account. So we're, how do I how would I go about, like, solving my first clue to see, you know, to seeing who, you know, obviously, we find out who was murdered. How do we go about, you know, sort of doing this? Or do you provide any clues? Or are they supposed to, sort of have to solve it themselves?

Joe Kowalski 46:09
It's very much on the on the user's own volition, that they have to find the clues. But there are a lot of clues sprinkled throughout, but there's a lot of red herrings throughout and dead ends. And basically when most of the accounts start with murder mystery and then end with a word. So like when you're at the beach, it's murder mystery beach, and when you're downtown, it's murder mystery downtown. So to figure out if they solve right, you have to go to an account that starts with murder mystery and ends with the the murder weapon used to kill the victim. So and then on that page, you get to, kind of see if you were right, and you get a little, kind of set of pictures and a little video clip, kind of explaining how that went down. So if you look around and you go to all these different accounts, you'll you should be able to find out what the murder weapon was, and not everyone I've shown it to has figured it out. Some people needed a little extra help, but I did have quite a few people who were able to get to the end successfully. So that was the one thing I was nervous about. Like, did I make this too hard? Like, are people going to be able to figure this out? But there are, there are some people who were able to get to the end.

Dave Bullis 47:22
So without done, Joe, just, just to sort of ask, when you get to the end, is there any sort of like, like, I don't want to say prize, but is there anything that, like, a little trophy, or something that, like, people would like, you know what I mean, like they could sort of bragging rights. Or, you know what I mean, is there anything at the end where people know it's the end, and is there any type of like prize, so to speak, as I'm trying tosay,

Joe Kowalski 47:43
Um, not so much, any external prize. But like I said, when you when you get to the account, when you solve it, there is, like a set of pictures and like a video clip that kind of explained how, exactly how it happened. You get to see how that how the murder happened. And I that's, that's, that's pretty much it.

Dave Bullis 48:07
No, I just wanted to ask, you know, I imagine would be like, you know, cool bragging rights in it. And it is a really cool idea. So I'm glad, you know, honestly, using social media that way, where, you know, it's very creative, and, you know, it's a lot of interactivity, which I which, you know, I think is becoming big now, especially with, you know, stuff like advances in VR and stuff like that,

Joe Kowalski 48:28
Yeah, and that's the thing, is that all these interactive methods are constantly evolving. You're never going to have the same technology used, you know, even two or three years later, I went to the Cleveland Film Festival this year, which is a pretty, pretty big festival, for those who don't know anything about it, and they I went to a whole VR demonstration. And I've always kind of had a cattle interest in VR. I've gone to some meetings where I've got to try out the Oculus and and some of the other more elaborate ones where you get, like, the full body experience, which is really, really, really cool. And I, and I really believe, especially, that virtual reality is going to continue to be a bigger and bigger factor in our lives. I think, not only in terms of gaming, but in terms of of how we learn and things used in schools and and how we promote ideas, and it's can be such an immersive experience. But, yeah, some of these films at the Cleveland Film Festival, it's really interesting to see how they used virtual reality, because I think some of them nailed it really well. And some of them were like, you know, like, there was, I saw this documentary where they took you to an area where malaria was really active, and it was about this family trying to move to a new area where they could have tents that had mosquito nets on them and being and like seeing and be able to look around in these environments really, really connected you with this family in a way that I don't think I would have felt quite as strongly if it was just a regular 2d image that I was watching. And of course, at the end, it was for an organization where you could donate to help these families. And that was like a really exciting use of VR that I think that could be really useful in the future. But then I also watched another one where the whole idea was that you died and you got, like, buried. And that sounds really cool in theory, but it was not done in a way that I felt was, like it just felt really gimmicky, like it was telling, like, a really compelling story. I think it would be more interesting, but it was kind of grainy, and it was to the factor that, like, I think within two or three years, the technology is going to make something like that a little less likely to hold up than this really engaging documentary. And I also got to see too, there's a short film called Pearl that was nominated for an Academy Award, and it was a really big deal because it was the first virtual reality project to be nominated for an Academy Award. And that was another one like it was, yeah, maybe the technology will evolve. And it this, this short film won't be as immersive or as as high tech as it is right now, but it was such an endearing story that I think, I think it will hold up. It was about this, this father and daughter playing music together and traveling in the same band across across the country, and it was, it was just very, very touching. So I think, I think the more and more people use this kind of technology, and the more it evolves, I think we'll keep finding what works and what doesn't and what will hold up and what won't.

Dave Bullis 51:57
Yeah, you know, you touched on something there that I feel about, about, about VR, and sometimes I just feel that they're using it as sort of like a gimmick, where it's like, it's not really about a story, it's about, like, it's an exp, it's a pure experience. It's almost like a roller coaster. Yeah, you get on the roller coaster and you're not being you're not asking to be told a story. It's just like, here's an experience. And if, and if that, honestly, if that's what somebody wants to do. Hey, more power tone. Because, you know, I think, you know, you can't really tell somebody, you know, if that's what experience that you want to have. Hey, man, you know, go for it. But like, as far as storytelling goes, I think VR is gonna fall short. I just, I just don't think see it actually, where people are gonna sit there, honestly, Joe, if, like, maybe two hours, maybe four hours, even with, like, a video game. I'm talking about video games right now, worth like, if I had a video game with the VR headset on, with a controller in my hand, and it was like a first person shooter, and I'm, you know, zombies are coming in, I honestly can't see anybody. I can't see like, a main portion of the population anywhere in the world wanting to do that for more than, like, 20 minutes. I honestly, man, I think VR has a lot of lot of things it's going to share with 3d I think where VR is going to come into play. And I mentioned this with Jamie Buckner, who was on the podcast three episodes ago, as we were talking about this as well. I think the big thing with VR is is going to be education. Because yeah, because I actually used to work in higher ed, and I got to see a lot of different stuff. And I think one of the big things is going to be, is going to be like you, your textbook isn't going to be an actual book anymore. It's going to be almost like a tablet that, you know, when you're learning about the human body, you're going to, well, now we're gonna kind of get an AR, but, but the there's just gonna be an image of, like, Hey, we're studying the human brain, and then image of the human brain will come up out of this tablet, and, yeah, to actually interact with it, and touch and touch, okay, well, this is, this is your cerebellum, and this is gonna be your, you know, frontal cortex and stuff like that. And you're and you're like, oh, okay, that's where this is in the brain and shit like that. And I think that's where I think VR is going to be very huge. By the way, you want to hear something really cool that I was shown in higher ed, and it never got to I've never seen it anywhere, and I don't think, I don't think it's ever going to be approved. They had a special paint that had nanotechnology in it that actually blocked cell phones. So, like, you were like, Yeah, and actually, except for to dial 911, that was the only thing that it allowed. I never heard anything about it since I honestly passed, because I good, because probably, there's probably gonna be some issue where, like, it probably what. Well, they said it did it block nine. It didn't block 911, but they probably ended up did blocking 911, or something. And I couldn't and I couldn't figure out how to get it passed or, or maybe some, you know what I mean, because, because, if something ever did happen at a school, God forbid, you would sit there and say, Oh, well, they didn't have their cell phones because, then, because of the pain on the walls, yeah, so you don't want to be, you know, a. You don't want to be in that situation and then be like, well, the pain in the walls, you know, stop them. But, but, yeah, I but, but it's a cool idea, though. I mean, honestly, it sounds like a really good idea, but, but I get why it wouldn't be too mainstream, and maybe, maybe they're gonna roll it out later on. Maybe it's one of those things that takes a few years to come out, but, but, but, yeah, that's where I see VR going, as far as VR and movies go. I just don't think it's ever gonna happen. I honestly, I think we're at the point now where, I mean, there's a video game that's out right now that somebody was telling me, like, Hey, Dave, look at this. You could make a movie out of this someday. And I took a look at it, and I said, this thing is so far from a movie, I don't even know where to begin. And it was, it was this big war game where you could have these two armies battle into each other. And I said there's no, there's no detail to the characters. Every character has the same exact stabbing motion. I said it's really cool in scope. But I mean in in when you actually get down to it, it's not really, it's impressive from a coding standpoint, but from a movie standpoint, I said this would be, you know, people would tune out after a minute. You know, there's no story to it. There's no, there's no there's nothing that that's being told and you know that that's again, when we when we're differentiating between a story and an experience.

Joe Kowalski 56:15
Yeah, I think, um, I think there's a way they could still coexist, though, because I do kind of agree with you. I don't think it's going to take over movies, that all movie theaters are going to be VR experiences or anything, because I think it does offer a different thing. And the thing I'm starting to notice is that when you're directing a VR film, you direct it more like a stage show or like a play, because you with a movie, you have the choice of like. I'm going to put the pic to the camera here, and this is what the the audience sees. Whereas, like, with with a VR film, you have to think more of like, what do I what do I want to lead the audience toward? Like? If I want to look over this way, I'll have something flashy over here, you know? Or if I I'll have them follow this character as they walk across the way, and it presents an interesting challenge that I think doesn't replace movies, but could be a very interesting thing in and of itself. And I have to say, when it comes to gaming and stuff, there was a really cool game I tried at one of these VR demonstrations where you were on top of Castle and you had to knock over these little Minecraft like figures from getting into your fort. And I have to say, after, after about a minute of being there with this bow and arrow on top of this, this tower, you know, shooting at these little guys trying to get into your castle, not only do you, first of all, forget that you're pressing a button that's in your hand to unleash this bow and arrow, you kind of forget that you're not in this environment and and I think that's the thing where I don't know if I entirely agree that I don't, I don't think it will take I take over. Game may be the only thing available, but it was such an incredible experience for me to do this that if I think, if it's cheap enough, and I think it gets, it gets into enough hands, I can't see a future where this isn't a huge part of gaming personally,

Dave Bullis 58:12
Yeah, I, you know, I think it goes back to how people want to play their games. I know a lot of people want to like stream and it, you know, and they can wear their viewer headset and stream at the same time. I mean, like, for example, PewDiePie, if he were to do something like that, you know? I think also it depends upon sometimes, honestly, Joe, I feel like I'm staring at a screen every second of my day. Some days, which I probably am, I'm staring at either a laptop. I have four different laptops I have to use. I have two, two cell phones. And I'm just like, when I drive, I also have a an onboard computer that's my GPS, and also collect cell phone stuff for me. And it's just like, you know, I just, I don't have to look at that, but like, driving is probably the only time left. I'm not staring at a screen. And I'm just, you know, do I really want to do? I really want to, you know, just keep staring at a screen that's now gonna be like, two inches from my face. You know, I actually played, when I played that Batman game, it was actually for for PS four. It was actually really cool to look around the Bat Cave and everything like that. And, you know, take a look at this or that. And, and my friend had that exercise bike thing where you can put the VR headset on, and you can, you know you're in the Alps or whatever, really cool. But I just wonder if it's something where you're going to want to use it every day for the most and I know there's people out there who would use it every day, but for other people, I wonder if it's just something that would what I'm trying to say is I wonder if VR would end up just becoming a real niche market, almost like 3d became what I think 4k blu rays might become, because I hear 4k blu rays, and I honestly, you know, I mean, how many people if I, if I gave them, and, you know, a screen, I said, pick up the 4k version. Could actually find it if it was the same TV with the same players with, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it's just, Because, I mean, if it's not shot in 4k I mean, it's not going to look like 4k I mean, honestly, mad, Max Fury, road shot in 2k I see a 4k release of it, and I'm like, Why? Because it's not even, was even shot in 4k I mean, I know they could do upscaling and stuff like that, but I mean, really, you know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of this stuff's gonna end up becoming a niche sort of market, if that's just my prediction.

Joe Kowalski 1:00:36
Oh, VR will definitely have to cross that hurdle. Very similar to what you said, like 3d where I think one of the big reasons 3d didn't catch on as big as it did in a home market, is because of the glasses situation, you know, if you wanted to get together, because, like, I saw like, demonstrations of like, 3d sports games, and those are really cool. It just looked like these little tiny people, literally on your screen, running around. But, you know, like, if someone's trying to get together a group of friends and watch a like a like a basketball game or a football game or something like that, I highly doubt they're going to want to put on a bunch of glasses and fiddle with that. Now, let's get the settings right and stuff. So I think you're right to a certain degree. I think if VR wants to not just become that little niche thing, they're gonna have to find a way to, A, make it more financially available to everybody, and B, find a way that maybe they won't have to have these big, clunky headsets on the entire time, and make it more of a maybe a more integrated experience where it's it seemed like less hassle. You know.

Dave Bullis 1:01:38
Yes, that is, that is exactly right. Man, with those 3d glasses, I had a friend of mine who actually bought actually bought a 3d TV, and he bought four pairs of glasses. He bought it on one Black Friday. He had, you know, we went over there, we put on the glasses. We watched avatar, well, it's really cool. And I was like, you know, but after, and I'm like, you know, by the end, I'm less like, I'd rather just watch a regular 2d movie. Like, I honestly, man, I'm old school in that method where I'm just like, I'd rather watch an 80s horror slasher like Jason. Jason for the Friday 13th part three. He tried, they tried to make that 3d and I was like, Yeah, it's cool. And everything where, you know, the arrows are coming at you, the with the one shot and this and that another thing. But I'm like, at the end, you know, somebody once told me, good 3d goes in, bad, 3d comes out. So if you're constantly, like, dodging stuff that's, you know, okay, that's almost like a wake up to the audience, or that's like a cool effect, or whatever. But good 3d like Avatar was, it goes in and you can actually just see as far as you can, actually, as the eye can see, literally, because it's just an immersive world back there. You know what I mean? And, and, you know, that's one of the things why I actually did like Avatar. I actually was dating a girl at the time. I went to go see it, and she goes, That was terrible. That was terrible. I was like. I was like, shut up. What do you know about Shut up. What do you know about movies? I said, I'll tell you if it's good or not. No, I'm just kidding around. But, but, but, but, she said she didn't like it. We were just talking about it, and I was like, you know, I'm a sucker for James Cameron, but, but just to get back, we were talking about, you know, with, with all this stuff, you know, I just think, yeah, having people having to put on, like, headsets and stuff like that, it, it becomes like a, almost like a, like, you know, because some people are gonna say, oh, Greg, I put on this headset again. Or I gotta put it away, and you gotta find it again. Or it's just like something, like, they misplace it, they may or, you know what? I mean, it's just more things that are the moving parts to a situation. You know what I mean?

Joe Kowalski 1:03:25
Yeah, I think it's a very akin to something. I mean, it could go either way. Because, I mean, look at something like a, like a computer tablet, right? Like, like, when the iPad came out, people were scoffing because people been trying to pitch tablets for years. I mean, there have been, there have been tablets that came out in the 90s, and it just never connected with the public. You know, it just wasn't. They were too pricey, they were too clunky. But Apple managed to make something that people wanted and found a usage for. They brought back an old idea and made it in a way that was consumable, and made it in a way that people really, really liked. So, yeah, I completely agree, I think, with VR. And I think there are, I agree that there are some good uses of 3d but I don't think there was enough of a of a of a difference, like, um, I think one movie that used it really well that I saw in 3d was Pixar. Is up because, like, at the beginning of the film, the 3d was very flat, because you're living in his life where he's cooped up and and he's just this old guy, this widower and, and he's lonely. And then, like, when he's out there in the middle of South America, like, gets really deep, and he's up in the clouds, and it feels big and vast. So I think people are gonna have to use VR like that, you know, like I said, don't just tell a story about, look, you're dying and now you're in a coffin. Like, take the gimmick out of it and really focus on the exciting storytelling potential of this medium and what can be done with it, and, and, and that doesn't mean you have to play it safe, but, but be smart about how you use. It and use it in a way that that people connect to,

Dave Bullis 1:05:05
Yeah, exactly right, Joe, it always comes back to the story. It always comes back to, you know, what kind of story are you telling and what kind of emotional core are we going with here? You know what I mean? Because character, because people have to care about these characters. They have to be, you know, not sympathetic, but empathetic. We have to empathize with them and you know, and with the story you're telling. You know, it's just we have to become hooked. And that's why I always get pissed off Joe and people say you got to hook them in the first 10 pages. No, you have to hook them the whole freaking story, not the first 10 pages. Maybe the reader, maybe the maybe some reader, the gatekeeper, has to hook for the first 10 pages, for he or she passes. But for when I gather most, most gatekeepers, who are script readers, who have to read those scripts. They have to read everything cover to cover. They can't read the first 10 pages and say, CF, you know, forget this and and you know what I mean. And they have to read, report it, about it. Afterwards. They through their weekend reads and as well. And from what I gather, they have to read every script cover to cover. So you have to hook them the whole script. And you know, you have to hook them the whole whole time, no matter what you're doing. And you know, as you talk about the experiences that too, has a hook to it. You know, even if you ride a roller coaster, there has to be something special about it that sets it apart, whether you put all the extra loops in, whether twists and turns, whether you sit down like the Superman roller coaster, all that good stuff. And, yeah, I mean, you know, so, yeah, you know, everything has to have, you know, it's its speciality. It's, you know, what makes it special? And, you know, because Joe, I mean, we, you know, we've been talking for about over an hour now, and I want to ask, you know, Joe, is there anything we could talk about that you wanted to discuss now, or anything you wanted to say to put a period the end of this whole conversation?

Joe Kowalski 1:06:44
No, I guess just as a whole, like it's, it's really good to talk about this kind of stuff with people who who share your interests and and also care about creating. And I think it's important to to connect with with people who are doing stuff similar to us. And I think you just, you do that so wonderfully on your show and and you create this conversation, because there are all these people out there who are making such cool stuff, and it's so cool that you bring a light to those things. And I just want to thank you for for creating that conversation.

Dave Bullis 1:07:23
Oh, thank you so much, Joe. I try my best. I, you know, with this podcast and everything like that. And one of the reasons I started this was because I wanted to actually talk to filmmakers out there. And I got to meet Greenough, great people like you. I've got to, you know, I honestly got to meet so many great people. And I just look at it as, like, this is the tip of the iceberg, and I actually want to keep, just keep moving forward with this and in a lot of different ways, and, you know, and start doing a couple more things. And people, people actually, you know, not to segue too far away. But somebody once said to me, what are you working on now? You know, you haven't worked on anything in probably a few years, and honestly, it's, it's, I've been taking a step back, to take Stu to take two steps forward. And, you know, that's something I'm working on now, is I'm working on a ton of stuff, and a lot of cool podcasting stuff as well, that that I've been talking a few people about. And hopefully, you know, I'm gonna hope, hopefully, do a bunch of stuff with that soon and, but I also got other, a couple other things planned, but, but, yo, Joe, thank you so much, you know for coming on and work. Where can people find you out online?

Speaker 1 1:08:24
If you go to pogiejoe.com P, O, G, I, E, joe.com you can see all the things that I've talked about. We have our prism trailer on there. There's, I think I just put a thing about the murder mystery game. There's links to our podcast. And we're on all different kinds of podcasting apps and sources and everything. My YouTube stuff is on there, so if you want to see any of this stuff I've mentioned at all during the show, that's probably the best place to go.

Dave Bullis 1:08:54
And I will link to all that in the show notes. Everyone Joe does some really, really cool stuff. And I like that nickname too, poji Joe. And, you know, and, and he does some really cool stuff, and I'm gonna link to that all in the show notes. Joe Kowalski, poji Joe, I want to say thank you so much for coming on my friend.

Joe Kowalski 1:09:14
Hey, thank you so much. It's always a joy to talk to you.

Dave Bullis 1:09:19
Oh, thank you. And, you know, I appreciate at least one person wants to talk to me, but, but, but, thank you so much, Joe. No, it's really great. And honestly, man, I can't wait to see what you're gonna do next. And I also will introduce you to that guy who runs that film festival right now. I will shoot, I will make a Facebook message introduction and get you two talking.

Joe Kowalski 1:09:38
Thank you. That would be brilliant. I would really like to talk to him.

Dave Bullis 1:09:42
Sure, no problem, Joe. Joe, have a great day, and I will talk to you very soon my friend.

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BPS 422: The Unscripted Journey of Steven Bernstein From Cinematographer to Storyteller

June 5, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

What if the greatest stories of our lives are the ones we never meant to write? On today’s episode, we welcome Steven Bernstein, a man whose journey through the world of cinema has been anything but predictable. A writer at heart, a cinematographer by accident, and a director by destiny, his career is a living testament to the art of surrendering to the unknown. From his early days at the BBC to the sets of Hollywood blockbusters, his story unfolds like an unplanned masterpiece—one that ultimately brought him full circle, back to the thing he always loved: writing.

In this profound conversation, Steven Bernstein recounts his journey from philosophy student to award-winning cinematographer, where his love of storytelling found an unexpected home behind the lens. He speaks of the curious ways life moves us, sometimes against our best-laid plans. “You tend to go with those things that are providing you income,” he muses, reflecting on how a passion for writing gave way to cinematography, leading him to films like Monster, Like Water for Chocolate, and Scary Movie 2. Yet, even as he shaped light and shadow for some of cinema’s most striking images, the writer within him never faded.

There is an undeniable poetry in the way Bernstein describes his work. He doesn’t just shoot a film; he composes it, layering meaning through framing, movement, and light. Every choice—a dolly push, a backlight, an asymmetrical composition—whispers something to the audience. It’s a language beyond words, one that he speaks fluently. “Everything to do with film is a language,” he explains. “And like any language, it’s made up of two parts: that which we present and that which we mean.”

His journey back to writing was not an easy one. After years of crafting imagery for others, he took a leap into directing his own films, starting with Decoding Annie Parker. It was a lesson in risk and resilience. At one point, he spent five years in poverty, refusing to return to the safety of cinematography. “If you hold out for the dream, maybe you achieve it,” he says. It is a stark reminder that the artist’s path is often one of sacrifice, but those who persist find themselves richer in ways beyond money.

Yet, Bernstein also understands the tension between art and commerce. Filmmaking is an expensive endeavor, and investors want guarantees. He describes the struggle of balancing creative vision with financial expectations, a dance between inspiration and limitation. And yet, some of the greatest filmmakers—Terry Malick, the Coen Brothers, Charlie Kaufman—have defied convention, proving that the most resonant stories often break the rules.

The conversation moves to the nature of collaboration, the unspoken alchemy that happens on a film set when everyone is in sync. He recalls moments from Monster, where the crew, sensing the gravity of a scene, chose to remain completely silent, whispering only when necessary. It was an unspoken agreement, an offering to the art being created. “It was one of the most magical moments I remember in any film I’ve ever worked on,” he recalls. It is a glimpse into the rare, sacred spaces where true storytelling happens—not in the scripts, but in the spaces between them.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:38
I have my next guest, he has been the director of cinematography for such films as monster directed by Patty Jenkins, who just directed Wonder Woman, Kicking and Screaming, directed by Noah Baumbach, and Like Water for Chocolate, he's also been the director of cinematography for comedies like the Water Boy, Half Baked, Scary Movie 2, White Chicks. And he's on action films like Swat. And he also wrote a film a textbook called film production. And his latest films decoding Annie Parker and dominion have included actors like Aaron Paul, John Malkovich, Helen Hunt, just to name a few. And currently, he's actually teaching some really cool online and offline seminars, which, again, I'll link to in the show notes. We're gonna talk about a lot of really cool stuff on this podcast episode with guest Steven Bernstein. So Steven, just to get started, you know, you've done a lot of really amazing work. You've done a lot of work as a cinematographer, you know, starting in, you know, the the late 80s, and you've done all these wonderful projects. And I wanted to ask how you got to that point. I mean, that's sort of the, the impetus to a lot of interviews, and a lot of, you know, people who've, who've been able to really ascend up that, that proverbial ladder is, you know, how did you get to that point? So what I want to ask you, Steve is, did you just to sort of start this off? Did you go to film school, you know, to be a cinematographer, or did you do have a or did you have a completely different sort of entry way into this industry?

Steven Bernstein 2:15
A completely different entry way. I had wanted to be a writer and read or majored in a philosophy at university. When I came out, there were various job opportunities of different types, one of which was at the BBC training program, which I enrolled in and studied there as a writer, director, researcher, and worked in long form documentary, great because it allowed me to travel a great deal, which was an interest of mine then and I Got to go to China, Hong Kong, Philippines, Vietnam, South America, South Africa during apartheid, what was then Rhodesia, later became Zimbabwe. So a lot of adventures, a lot of really interesting shoots, and some great experiences, but not really that satisfying, and not as it turned out, my calling, I came back to London and continued working at the BBC. About the time that music videos became of interest, the first few music videos would be produced, and I got to shoot a few of those, and soon I was in demand, not as a director or as a writer, but as a what was called, then a lighting cameraman, a cinematographer, and shot a lot of really interesting music videos for some really, then very big bands in the in the 80s, Eurythmics and so. On, and that led to interest from others, and got into commercials. Worked with the great Tony Kaye, did some really important commercials with him, some of which won the Cong, Golden Lion da D award, and then I was kind of on the map. Still, my intention always had been to be a writer. So it's funny the way life works in that you tend to go with those things that are providing you income. Inevitably, you can have good intentions, but overheads, life expenses being what they are, you do what you have to do. So I was shooting, enjoying it, particularly the music videos and the commercials, but I was still writing plays, films, short films, some of which appeared on Channel Four in the UK. Some got on the stage in London, but really nothing that provided me any sort of success. And then along came Like Water for Chocolate, my friend Gabrielle barista, and had been offered the work completing that movie, which had run into a little bit of trouble, and he couldn't do it. So they asked me to go to Mexico and finish the film, which I did. It's a big hit in America, the highest foreign highest grossing foreign language film of all time to date. And I then came to America to see if there was work to be had here. And that led to all those studio films, those comedies with Adam Sandler, with the weigh ins and so on. And that in turn led to my meeting now the great Noah Baumbach, and starting an independent films in America. And that in turn led to Monster. So I've tried to compress what is now seeming a very long career into a very short period of time, but a happy series of accidents, doing what I never intended to do, ending up at a place I never intended to come to, and somehow working my way back towards my first intention.

Dave Bullis 7:04
Yeah, you know. And it's funny how it all sort of comes forth full circle, right? You start off with one intention, you have. You find yourself in all these new situations, but you took advantage of those situations, and, you know, you turn them all into opportunities. And now you're, you know, and now we're going, you're going back to writing. And I think there's something poetic in that, because I think as when we as filmmakers and and whether we're writers or directors, when we start our careers, you know, we have an idea of what it's going to be. And usually everyone has an idea that it's going to be. You know, you're going to make a movie at 22 you're going to win Sundance, you're going to make a million dollars, and then you're gonna move to Hollywood. And, you know, Steve, it doesn't really work out that way. It's a lot of zig zags towards that sort of path. And, you know, and it's just a that's why I do this podcast, because there's so many interesting stories like yours, where it's not just one way. In fact, with all these episodes of so many different ways of doing things, but, but the point I'm trying to make is, you know that that's the thing about the intention that we have, and how life sort of throws out all these obstacles, and how we respond to them, and how we you how we respond to them really dictates, you know, what course our life is going to go on.

Steven Bernstein 8:19
I think you're absolutely right, and it goes to great complexity that life offers us, which is, do we earn $1 do we do what makes us the maximum amount of profit all the time, or do we hold on to an individual dream and simply wait it out? It's very interesting, because I've done both. When I started, I made no apology to say that was kind of an opportunist. I was taking what was offered to me. And look, it was a fun ride. I got to, again, travel a lot, both first at the BBC and then doing music videos. I got to meet really interesting people, particularly in the 80s, and the bands we were dealing with and the concerts we were doing and the videos we were doing, all very, very exciting, but really it was the work that was offered, and I took advantage of that later when I went to make my first film at Decoding Annie Parker, I had seen other people try to make that same transition to director, and they tried to keep their day job as it were, and none of them succeeded. So I resolved that I would give up everything to do with cinematography. I would give up anything to do that didn't directly point me towards directing, and that's what I did. And sadly, decoding did not happen quickly. We were promised money, that money went away. We were promised other money. That money went away, and I spent nearly five years unemployed and went through all my savings and most of my possessions, and was in abject poverty on the day we finally got funded, and then went to shooting. So both courses interesting, I think ultimately, the latter one more painful. You sacrifice a great deal, but if you hold out for the dream, maybe you achieve it.

Dave Bullis 10:22
Yeah, and, you know, holding out for the dream. It's kind of like Sid Hague, you know, he, people once asked him about his acting career, and he had actually given up. He actually, you know, sort of went away for a long while, because he said every, every role that he was offered was basically he became in as a man with a gun. He came into the door holding a gun, or he came in, you know, he's already in the room with the gun. And what happened was he came back because, you know, he actually liked it and, and finally, he said, You know, I realize now he's in movies with Tarantino and Robert and Rob Zombie. And he said, You know, it's like Winston Churchill said, never quit. Never quit, never quit.

Steven Bernstein 11:00
I think that's absolutely right. And there's a great example of this that we know I mean Patty Jenkins, a dear friend of mine. Patty was the director of Monster, which I shot. The story is interesting both how our relationship began and how Patty built her career. I was shooting the big second unit on SWAT, 21 cameras, tons of effects. We're spending millions of dollars blowing up the front of the library in Los Angeles, crashing planes, shooting rockets into cars. It was everything I thought I dreamt of when I was a young cinematographer. And then after four months of that, I got a call from Clark Peterson, the producer of monster, and known for years the film was in some trouble in Florida, and he asked if I would read the script, speak to the first time director, and consider leaving SWAT and coming to Florida to shoot monster, and I read the script. I thought was great. I spoke to patty on the phone, and was struck by her intelligence, her sensitivity, her command of the subject matter and of herself. I just sensed that she would be a great leader. And agreed, and came down at 1/20 of what I was getting paid on SWAT arrived in Florida to this tiny little film that was underfunded, under equipped and in real trouble, and we began working together. And for me, it was a epiphany, because I saw people of absolute and genuine integrity, completely believing in the art they were undertaking to create. And Charlize was self sacrificing, and the role was agonizing and difficult for her, but she pushed through, as did patty and then, of course, monster, when we finished it, no one would buy it, which a lot of people don't know, Blockbuster would be the only people that would put forward a not very good offer, which was taken with the proviso the film would get a very limited theatrical release. And amazing to them, and I guess to kind of everybody, the film got spectacular reviews in the papers. Patty ended up along with Charlize on Charlie Rose, and then we went to Berlin, where Charlize won the Silver Lion, then a Silver Bear rather than the Golden Globe, then the Oscar, of course, and the rest is kind of legend. Right after that, Patty was offered pretty much everything from studios, and you or I, or I don't mean to speak for you, let's say someone like me would have taken that opportunity work on a studio, be paid a million or 2 million. I know what she's offered, but a lot. But Patty had a vision of what she wanted to do, and remarkably, and this goes to her character. She said, No, these aren't the films that I want to do. She wanted to a film about Chuck Yeager. She had some other projects that were interesting to her, and she was going to hold out, as I did on my film, for what she was waiting for and what she believed she'd be adept at doing and achieving. And waited and waited. Did some television pilots, very successful ones, the killing which she did a great job on. And then along came a Wonder Woman. And Patty said, yeah, here's a strong woman with a voice that I find interesting, a subject matter that I've always liked. I'm gonna make this film. And what did it do this weekend? I mean, it was spectacular. And it's not just the box office revenue we generated, look at the reviews it's getting. So that's Patty's remarkable. And I think in structural and structural journey,

Dave Bullis 14:54
You know, I once met Kane Hotter, and Kane actually said the best. Actor. Actress that he ever worked with was Charlize Theron, and he said she was, not only is she was she very nice to everybody, with no airs whatsoever, but he said when Nick time came, she was absolutely amazing every single take, every single day. He's like, she never did a bad take, not one time. And when you see something like Monster, it's, you know, because Charlize is a beautiful woman, and then, you know, She transformed herself with all the makeup, and she really became that role. You know, I had on a couple different acting coaches, and they said that was the secret of acting, is that you don't act like like you're a person. You are that person.

Steven Bernstein 15:41
I think that's spot on. And, you know, look, I have the remarkable distinction of being the one cinematographer that managed to make Charlize Theron look bad. So it's very, very special. And I'm very proud of myself, and Charlize was very proud of me, but she and I worked very hard on making her look bad. One that goes to her great courage. Because, look, an actress's beauty is in part, her commodity in Hollywood. And the fact that Charlize, like Patty before her, had such an integrity of vision that she was willing to sacrifice her commodity value from the pursuit of art goes to the person that she is. And secondly, you're absolutely right about the quality of Charlize performance, and she does this strange hybrid of method acting and more classical approaches. She knows the material. She's always off page. She gets it completely. She intellectually understands and engaged is with the topic and knows her character and the character's arc, but in the moment, she is a method actor, she is completely engaged. And as your acting coach, a person that you interviewed, said she became that character, we believe she was that person completely. You know, there's a remarkable thing that happened on Monster one day where there was a key moment when Christina Ricci and Charlie, Sarah, and the two characters were saying goodbye to each other at a train station, and they both had worked their way into this emotional high, this there was a sense of intensity. And if you know film sets, as I'm sure you do the crews, you know, just carry on eating their sandwiches and lying down their track and doing what crews do. But something remarkable happened this day, and the crew just sensed that they wanted to support Christina and Charlize and what they were pursuing. So the crew decided unilaterally not to speak that day, and the crew was communicating with each other with hand signals and with pointing and occasionally a whispered word, but it was dead quiet on that set for the entire sequence, and it was one of the most magical moments I remember in any film I've ever worked on This sense of synergy of all of us working together to support what we felt was the achievement of great art. And I think it facilitated those two performances in that remarkable film.

Dave Bullis 18:13
I mean, and see stories like that are just so interesting to hear. You know, just working with different actors over the years and seeing all the different methods and different approaches. And it's very interesting to see to the crew, you know, responding in that method of recruit, responding and being very, very receptive, and helping Charlize and Christina Ricci and doing something like that. It's just very interesting to me when, because, because you mean, you've been, you've seen a lot of sets, Steve, where the crew ends up in the crew and the cast, they end up becoming like a family, because you're spending, you know, days into weeks, into months, making this film. And it almost becomes like a child for everybody, you know, and and everyone's a team player, and they all want to see, you know, what's best for this project that they've worked for so long on.

Steven Bernstein 19:00
I think you're exactly right. And this is the thing I think that's most attractive about film, is you do acquire a family for a few months, or a few weeks, or one of the films I did in India for a year, where you're all under great pressure, but you're all mutually dependent on each other, and you're isolated from the rest of the world, and you feel somehow special, not special, as in entitled, but that somehow the way you are mediating the world is different from the way you mediate the world in the civilian or Non film world. So the camaraderie and friendships that are built on film sets, to me, are still singular, and my closest friends all come from film and the most intense experiences in my life, generally have occurred on film sets. And I must tell you, there's never been a film that I've worked on. However bad the film may have been where it wasn't, followed, at least for me, by a profound depression that would last days or weeks. And I think I speak for virtually all film crews and actors. When you walk away from your family and just say, Okay, this films done. I'm going back home. Now, home doesn't seem like home. The set was home. And there's a peculiar transition stage, which some people never get over.

Dave Bullis 20:35
You know, you're absolutely right, Steve, I've been on a lot of sets like that where it's almost, you know, it's, I don't want to use this expression, but I will. It's almost like a high. It's almost like this, this feeling, this energy, actually, energy is a better word than it's his energy that you feel. And, you know, you just sort of whenever, especially when everybody is is gelling together, and everyone's there and they're professional, and they're all working together. It's that, you know, you get that feeling and you want to, you know. And when you leave and the project's over, you sort of go home and you're like, What am I going to do now? I guess I better watch Netflix and order pizza, right? It's like, but you want that feeling again, so much.

Steven Bernstein 21:15
No, absolutely right, to the point where it's like, maybe high is better because you're like an addict. You'll be walking down the street and you'll you'll see another film shooting. You sort of wander over thinking that you might be able to pick up on some of that energy. Maybe they'll invite you to lunch, but it's a it's something that you that you absolutely miss when you're not doing it. And listen, that's one of the problems I have when I moved from cinematographer to writer, director and producers. That when I was a cinematographer, I would be doing sometimes two features, sometimes even three a year. I'd be working all the time, and I'd be on those film sets with my, with my friends, with my with my film friend family. When you're a director, when you're a writer, in particular, you're locked in a room, you know, with a computer or with a fountain pen and no friends at all, just writing and writing and writing, and it's not as much fun. I'm down with Dorothy Parker, who said, I love having written. I hate writing. Well, that's, that's kind of my view. I'm very proud of my last script in particular dominion, the one with John Malkovich, and I'm very proud of decoding and Parker and the next one coming up. But still, the process of creating those stories, those scripts, very, very hard and very lonely.

Dave Bullis 22:37
It is a very lonely process. And you know, I wanted to ask Steve, you know, when you've, you know, worked all these years as an accomplished cinematographer, and you, and you go back to your first love, which was writing. As odd as this question sounds, was there any skills that translated? Because I think there was. And here's the one I one skill I think that really translated well. Was you, you will obviously lensing all these wonderful films and like, like Monster. You know, how that you, you know, have, you have that image in your mind. You have that, that sort of mind's eye where you're saying, okay, I can imagine, you know, we're opening up on this mountain range, or, I imagine we're opening up on this sort of dark night, and we can barely see. I imagine that helps a lot with your exposition when you're writing scripts. Because when you're writing, you know, this, these action lines, I imagine they're, they're very, very well told, because obviously you know exactly what it's gonna look like. Because, hey, you're a cinematographer, you know, and you can bring all those years of imagery and seeing all these different things to your script. Am I right or am I? Am I completely off a Steve,

Steven Bernstein 23:46
No, you're spot on. And go to the very essence of my philosophy and understanding of film. What I discovered both from first my reading when I was a student of philosophy, and then later as a writer than as a cinematographer, is that everything to do with film is a language, and we have to understand what a language is. A Language is inevitably made up of two parts, that which we intend to mean and that which we present to create that meaning, or what I think the philosophers called the signifier, that which the audience sees, and the signified that which we mean, the idea that we're trying to present. As a cinematographer, you realize that when you compose a shot in a particular way, you can create a certain feeling in an audience. You can even suggest an idea. When you push a camera forward on a dolly, for example, into a face you're saying to an audience, hey, what this character is about to say or do is important. That's not in a script, but the camera movement is the signifier. The idea of importance is the signified. And then I began analyzing everything I did as a cinematographer, and. As a language. If I light with a backlight, that's the signifier. It's backlight signified mystery or uncertainty, an asymmetrical composition that is the signifier. The signified, possibly a character who's alienated, or a film like wait until dark, a character who's at at risk to edit a shot where you do an extreme close up, then go to a very wide shot where David Lean might have done you're saying, Oh, here's a person in a small little landscape. That's the signifier. The signifier is the insignificance of the human condition, perhaps, or the weakness of that individual at that moment. So when I realize all those things, I realize that everything I put in a written script is again a matter of what I signify and what it means, how it is indicated, and ultimately, what I'm trying to convey to an audience. But I also realized that not everything can be done with the spoken word, that sometimes the most powerful, although the most engratic elements, are not written but implied with the the photographic image. So as I write, I'm always thinking, is it better for the character to say this, or is it better to have the character say very little and imply something simply with a composition or a camera movement, or perhaps with the music or with the rhythm of the editing. If I begin to look at film as I suggest, everybody does, as a series of integrated languages, each with their own set of signifiers and each signifying different things, then I don't feel an obligation to put everything into a dialog, and the dialog can become more economical and more real, and the medium as a whole, integrating all these different processes becomes more effective. Does that make sense?

Dave Bullis 26:50
Oh, it makes perfect sense. You know, as you were describing, you know, your process, I was reminded of, there will be blood and There Will Be Blood the first 20 minutes, you know, there's no, there's no dialog whatsoever. It's a lot of of imagery. It's a lot of, you know, we see Daniel Plainview as he's coming down into that, into that pit, looking for gold. He doesn't find gold. However, he finds oil. And that becomes, he becomes that oil baron, oil tycoon, sociopathic businessman. But that first 20 minutes, there's absolutely no dialog. And when I first saw that movie, I was like, wow, this is a really bold choice. Because, I mean, I imagine the pitch meeting for that you say, if you're a pitch meeting on the first 20 minutes, there's no dialog whatsoever, you know, it's just kind of, you know it, but, but, you know, once you start getting into the movie, it's, I mean, I thought it was absolutely phenomenal. And, I mean, the only reason it lost best picture was because it was up against the No Country for Old Men. And, you know, I which is another movie, very heavy in imagery. Have you? Have you seen either those movies Steven?

Steven Bernstein 27:56
I've seen them both, and loved them both. And I would throw into that mix Terry malix films, Days of Heaven, which was the film, I think that inspired me more than any other to be a cinematographer. You know, malex characters relationship to nature and nature being indifferent. And again, the visceral effect that nature's power, sublime majesty and indifference to us as as living, breathing souls, is important. So in a terry Malik film, all the time, he's cutting away to shots of nature. Again, as you say, a pitch meeting or a description to some investor, you're saying, well, a lot of these shots won't have any obvious meaning or won't advance the story to the next plot point, but it'll be laden with meaning. It will make us understand how indifferent nature and a god or an absent God is to us, and how that should make us potentially feel. And he does that almost exclusively in Days of Heaven, with images, not with dialog, he's combining languages. My feeling is that as a writer and as a director, you don't write your film in spoken language exclusively. You write your film in five different languages like a very skilled linguist, and you combine those together to create meanings and choosing which language to use based on which is most effective and which goes to your audiences sensibilities.

Dave Bullis 29:29
You know, that's very true because, you know, as I've been, because I my first love is writing as well, and when, when I'm writing a screenplay, there's so many different pairs of eyes to sort of look at it through, you know, there's an editor's eyes, there's, there's, you know, the director's eyes. Sometimes you're thinking even in terms of being a producer, you know what I mean, and you're and you you're thinking of all these different of different ways and then, but when you're adding all these layers into your actual writing, you know, you're really, you know, because you're trying to sort of hook the reader, as they say, you know, hook the reader in the first couple of pages, but you have to hook them throughout the whole story. You're trying to always, you know, keep that tension in there. You're trying to figure you're sort of, you know, wearing a lot of different hats. You're doing a lot of different things at the micro and the macro levels.

Steven Bernstein 30:24
You're right, and it's very, very hard, particularly we start talking about producing, because, you know, the person or persons who may determine whether your film gets made may have never made a film, and may have no understanding of cinematic language, of what composition does camera movement. May not have seen a terry Malik film, may not have seen Paul Thomas Anderson film, may not have seen a Coen Brothers film. They may have read McKees book on story and take that template and apply it to your script. And if your script does not use that template. They may feel that your script is a failed one, and this is difficult for all writers and all artists to determine. Do you do what the orthodoxy in our film community suggests, or go giving you a better chance of getting your film made. Or do you protect your singular vision? Be it part of that orthodoxy or not, in the belief that you know better how best to express the ideas you hope to express. It's it's interesting because unlike other art forms, ours is so very expensive that there is a inhibiting element, and that's the one of finance people backing a film want to know their investment is safe, and therefore are looking for absolute metrics to determine what will make your film a good investment for them. They're not interested in your ideas about how to engage an audience viscerally with a composition. They want to know that if the rules of which they may be aware are applied, does that mean your film will succeed, and if it will, will they make more money? And that's a very difficult way to approach filmmaking.

Dave Bullis 32:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine, you know, we he and I were just discussing this as well, because, you know, he was a part of a film. The film was already, everything was casted, they were about to shoot, and then suddenly it just all went away. And he said, Dave, it's happened too many times in my career to count. And he says, it just, you know, it happens sometimes where, you know, the money goes away, and then there's been other times where he's been pitching a project for for years and years and years, and it's finally, you get a financier, and you can, you're able to finally find that money. I had seen obvious on this podcast, and he was discussing how he found the money for Dallas Buyers Club. And, you know, it was just one of those things where he had a connection from years ago who was willing to help him out, out of a bind. And it was, you know, one of those cases where your network really is your net worth,

Steven Bernstein 33:11
No question. I mean, you've got to build relationships and contacts, and then you've got to convince people to give you their money to make your film. And again, there's a natural conservative factor in all that, and that they don't want you to take a lot of risk, because they don't know that that will generate money for them necessarily. I mean, we all want the investor who says, just go ahead and make what you believe. But those are rare. Most investors want to get involved and say, Okay, we're giving you this money. What's our best way of guaranteeing this? Are you definitely going to have three acts, and are your plot points going to come on the right pages and all the rest of it? And again, that may or may not be the best way to write a script, but that's what they want, because that's what they've been told is the way to success, and that, as I say, could be very inhibiting for a writer, for creative artists. I'm sure that Terry may like doesn't work to that template, you know, I'm sure Charlie Kaufman doesn't work that template. I'm pretty sure that the Coen brothers don't, and they're some of the most successful, important filmmakers we have working. So these are some of the tough decisions that filmmakers have to make, particularly when you go to finance your film, because you want that money, but you also want to make a great movie.

Dave Bullis 34:26
Yeah, you know, absolutely. And I, you know when we when as because writing is my first love as well. And when we're writing these scripts, sometimes there's a tendency to write with that producers hat, because you're wondering, oh, would this be able to be, you know, will this be too much money? Will I be able to even obtain this, you know, stuff, you know, and that's sort of as I find writing the first dress, we have to kind of sort of brush that aside and just sort of focus on just telling the best single story possible that we can tell. And then later on, when you're maybe doing rewrites, or you're in different meetings, and you can sort of take things out and maybe add things in, you. Yeah, and then sort of, you know, the story sort of evolves, and it kind of ties in with what we were talking about before, where, you know, we set off in the beginning with these expectations that's going to go into a straight line, and then suddenly it's zig zagging all over the map and, and we're, you know, we're, you know, finding these obstacles. And we're, we're trying to turn these obstacles into either they can either set us back, or we can move forward with them.

Steven Bernstein 35:22
You make a great point. And I always try to write my first draft in seven days or less. And there's a reason for that. I call it a slot draft, not a first draft, because what I want to do is write so quickly that I don't have time to think so. First, there's the idea of just an intuitive understanding of character. But also I find that I write to know what I think that if I try to outline before I begin writing, the ideas are only are only notional. I really don't know my characters. I don't know my story that Well, I think I do, and I can try to plot it out, and I can draw all sorts of diagrams and put all sorts of index cards up, but it's not really fully realized. Then, if I take a different approach and simply start writing and say, I'm gonna write 120 pages in seven days, what I discover is that by the time I get to that last page, I have developed an understanding of character. I have developed an understanding of what the narrative should be, and I might even understand some of the subtexts. Then I go back and I begin the real process of writing, which is rewriting, but I couldn't have done that if I tried to make that first draft perfect, and you talked about wearing your producers hat. I think it's essential. I think you made a very good point that when you're writing, you're thinking of nothing except those characters. I don't care how long a dialog scene goes on for, or how outrageous what the characters say are or off, or if they begin in a Proustian fashion, talking about things that have nothing to do with the story at all. Because, in fact, that's what people do in real life, is talk about things that don't necessarily have to do with the advancement of their individual plot. And then when you write that version, that slop version, and look at it, to me, it is the door to all things, you come to an understanding of everything that's important about your film, and then you can put those things, those things in when you go back to rewrite. It's a crazy way of writing, but it works very well for me.

Dave Bullis 37:30
Well, you know, I actually think that's a very good way of writing, because even when I have, you know, started writing stuff in the past, and even now, sometimes when I sit down to start writing, one of two things happens. Number one is you get distracted very easily. I think as this happens to everybody, where you know your phone chimes, or somebody at your door, your friend calls you and says, Hey, Steve, can you help me move? I have to, you know, you take me to the airport. And the second thing is, you have paralysis through analysis where you're sitting at your desk, or wherever you're writing, and suddenly you're just kind of like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if, and you start brainstorming, and you're just, basically, you're just spinning your wheel, so to speak.

Steven Bernstein 38:13
No, exactly, right? And I think this is to me, it was a breakthrough. You know, I was so concerned with failing that I was preventing myself from succeeding. So when I was convinced ultimately that I should write badly, I sat down and wrote the worst script I possibly could, and when I was finished, it was truly terrible, but it pointed the way to a much better script, a script that was so good, this is what I did with dominion, that when I sent it to John Malkovich, he signed up immediately, and it was a low budget film. But John loved the writing of that script, because the dialog seemed so natural and so imaginative to him. If I had written dominion to an outline, my characters would have been speaking to deliver the next plot point, to get to the next subject, to keep the story moving along as it had been outlined. But the way I wrote to many was I simply had my characters talk about things that were important to them, and then went back on the next draft and then imposed a form on that and it was much more natural. The writing was much better, and it's a system that simply works. I say to all writers, and I have a lot of systems that work with me. Don't try to be perfect on the first draft, or don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Simply write as quickly as you possibly can, and then discover what you always meant to say and never realized it.

Dave Bullis 39:47
You know, I like that approach, Steve, where, you know, you gave yourself permission to fail, and you basically said, I'm gonna write the worst possible thing. You know, I was talking to another friend, a colleague of mine Jason Brubaker, And he had a theory about, you know, guys who always talk about making a film. They always, you know, and you've met guys like this, too, Steve, where they're always saying things like, Oh, I have this great idea for a film, you know me and my buddies, blah, blah, blah, but they never actually make it. And the and his theory, Jason's theory, was that the reason they don't make it is because if it does suck, if it is bad, it's a reflection of them as an artist, and it kind of encompasses their entire career in sort of one foul swoop. So if they do write a bad screenplay or make one bad movie. Well, you suck. You're never going to make anything. Do you know what I mean Steve?

Steven Bernstein 40:45
I know exactly what you mean. And I take just the majority of people, not just in film, but in life, most people would rather talk about something than do it. Most people rather criticize others than do it. Those who criticize and don't do are always safe because they can't possibly fail, and can always make clear how superior they are, because they can criticize that which you did look I, when I made dominion, a lot of people said, Oh, well, Stephen, you had trouble finishing it. There was some money issues, etc, all of which were true and those were resolved. But the thing is, I did it. Had I simply not done it and watched others, I don't know if I would have the sense of self that I have. I'm proud of what I've done. I've done it because I've taken risks. But you go to a very important point. If you want to make films, you have to make films, and if you're going to do that, it means you're going to take risks. It means people are going to criticize and ridicule you, and you may even fail. But I'd much rather do and fail than observe and criticize others.

Dave Bullis 41:56
Yeah, and that is beautiful, Steve, because honestly, that is so true. You know, I think we all have somebody in our lives, or we've known somebody that like that in our lives, where they don't want to actually do anything. They may talk a big game, or they constantly criticize what other people are doing and kind of like downplay it in that sort of condescending, sort of very almost like jaded type of attitude where they're like, Oh yeah, that you're gonna make a movie this weekend. That's cool. You know what I mean? They just like they and people like that. You know they never do anything. They're always just sort of criticizing others from the comfort of their couch. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

Steven Bernstein 42:36
I completely know what you mean. And I look I pay tribute to anyone who takes a risk in their life of any kind. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't sometimes be safe, but you only, I think, have one life. You only have a few opportunities, and when they're presented to you, seize them. I know when we started decoding any Parker, we had spent a long time raising them on it, and I got a little bit of money from India, some from Canada. I was very lucky, and got the tax credit in California. And we were very, very close, within, like, $100,000 what we needed. And the producers all got the phone with each other, and we had to decide what to do. And at that point, Helen, haunted read the script and loved it, and had signed up for a very reasonable sum of money. We had Samantha Morton Helen, of course, won an Oscar. Samantha been nominated for two I had met Aaron Paul, and we had become fast friends. And Aaron Paul, who was at the height of his fame with Breaking Bad, had agreed to do it. Corey Stahl and I had gotten close as he had read the script, and we talked about the evolution of the characters, Rashida Jones, Bradley, Whitford, just this incredible cast we put together. And we were on the phone considering whether we should pull the plug because we didn't have quite enough money, and I ultimately decided that we would go ahead, and I realized it was a huge risk, and we nearly had to shut down. I think we did shut down for a day at the end of a week, and then we went and raised more money, and we managed to finish the film. Went on to win the Sloan award. The Hamptons had won Best Actress for Samantha Morton at Seattle, won the Milan Film Festival, two or three awards there, raised a couple of million dollars for charities, etc. We pulled it off, but there was a moment in that process where we had to decide whether to play it safe or to take a considerable risk. And I think those moments come often in film, because I think it was Hitchcock that once said that drama is life with the boring bits taken out. I would suggest that filmmaking is life with the com bits taken out. So it's a constant state of risk and near hysteria and certain failure. And from that you extract, hopefully. Be a film and a bit of a life.

Dave Bullis 45:03
And, you know, as we talk about your projects, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, when you started to actually go from that cinematographers sort of chair, so to speak, to being a director, you know, what were some of the things that you've picked up? I mean, because you've, you've had a lot of really cool directors, like Patty being the first example I can think of, you know, what were some of the things that you saw these directors were doing when they were talking to actors, or maybe even talking to you as a cinematographer, you know, and talking about, you know, a shot list. And here, and hey, Steven, here's my storyboard, you know, what are some of the the great things that they have done over the years that you sort of took into your projects.

Steven Bernstein 45:42
Well, it wasn't just pat, it was Jon Favreau. I worked with a couple of times, Jon and I are friends. Noah Baumbach, of course, I did three films with Noah Baumbach, which was fantastic. So I had an opportunity to work with lots of Taylor Hackford, of course, I mean, lots of other great directors, and I took something of value from each of them, certainly always grateful to my training at the BBC and always grateful to all my stage actors and what I learned there. But I learned, as I observed, about different management systems, different leadership methodologies and different ways of working with actors and with with crews. Noah and I, before we did both kicking and screaming and Mr. Jealousy and Highball, spent a lot of time prepping we were in Noah's place in in Greenwich Village, and we would go through the entire script, scene by scene, shot by shot, determining not only what we plan to shoot, but why we're shooting, what what the camera would mean. Going back to what I was saying before, about signifier and signified, again, wide shot or closed shot, Noah would show me clips from movies that he liked and said, this is very important to me, could we infuse this sequence with the same feeling from this film? I remember on Mr. Jealousy, he'd been much influenced by the French Nouvelle Vague, so we were using those kind of circular fade outs, and even the music that he chose was very much in that style. But also compositionally, the way the camera moved and the way I lit, it all had to be in the style of the Nouvelle dog. So that was exciting. That's what's so great about a collaborator like Noah, is that he had a very clearly determined vision of not only what his characters were, but stylistically, what he wanted to do. And that would be a great starting place for me to then run with some of my own ideas. I bring him books from painters or from designers or from other filmmakers, photographers for that period. So what about this? What if we did this, like this and so on, and we would integrate some of my ideas into his vision? Patty, I think I told you about her focus very much on actors. How Patty, at the end of every performance, rather than speaking to any of the crew, would drop the headphones and make a beeline directly for the actor. It doesn't matter what anyone else had to say to her. Her first point of contact after a take was those actors to tell them that they had been observed, that they're being protected, that someone is listening. Because that's what actors want most of all, is to know the actor be an experienced director or an experienced director. Those actors want to know that there's someone watching, protecting them, creating a rarefied, safe environment where someone's making sure that their performance is okay, and we'll tell them honestly if it isn't. And Patty really did that to a great degree. Jon Favreau, it was the atmosphere on set. It's kind of like he felt strongly that what happens on set somehow appears on screen. So his sets were fun and light, full of energy, full of comedy, and very, very gentle hand that everyone felt protected and facilitated, and again, that lent itself to what appeared on screen. Taylor Hackford, very, very well prepared and would cover things from every possible angle, knowing that whatever he planned, he knew that he might alter it in the cutting room, and wanted to make sure that he had plenty of material to cut that with. So for me, 30 years of observing some of the best directors in the world was a wonderful education for me, and it informs everything I do now. But was even better educationally, was watching some truly terrible directors get it wrong. And I got to watch that as well, and I'm not going to mention their names, but it helped me to know what not to do. So to accumulate all that knowledge and to be able to walk onto the first feature that I directed knowing what these great directors had done and what the bad directors had done, and what I should or shouldn't do was a huge help to me. It, it still is.

Dave Bullis 50:29
And you, you mentioned this too, Steven, you have 30 years of experience, you know, you you have, you know, started out as a writer. You became this accomplished cinematographer. You've won this just plethora of awards. You got to see all these great, sort of, you know, all these great directors, and all the things that they, they did, right and, and sort of put this all together for your own projects. But I know now you're, you're also doing some seminars, which, you know, you're, you know, gonna, gonna impart all this knowledge, which I think is phenomenal. So could you just, you know, talk a little bit about some of the seminars you have coming up?

Steven Bernstein 51:02
Absolutely, for years, really starting back to right about the time of that the BBC, I began teaching if somebody was a writer and wanted to know something about cinematography, because I had done both those things I was uniquely able to explain and a plain language for a writer or director what a cinematographer does, and then later, when I began directing, I could go into great detail to people about what each below the line crew member did. And when I was producing, I could explain to the investors why we needed money for different things, what the post production crew would be doing, what the on set crew would be doing, why we needed as many makeup people as we needed, and so on. So I was always teaching, and sometimes formally, I taught at the International Film School. In London, I had a film school of my own, and in the UK, in London, I set a film school up in New Brunswick in Canada. I've taught at universities including USC here and others all around the country, and I wrote a book about film production that covers all these things. And then finally, I just thought, you know, I should formalize this and make it available to a lot more people than I've made it available to in the past. So we're taking right now six of my most popular lectures, one on making the independent film, how you actually put together an independent film, how you find the money, how you use that money to shoot the film, how you take it through posts and get into sales and distribution? Another one about for stills photographers, because so many stills photographers have come to me and saying, hey, I want to be a cinematographer. I bought this camera. I've done stills work, but how is cinematography different from photography, and particularly with lighting? So I've done that so many directors and producers want to know about cinematography, how it works, so I I've running a course on cinematography for non cinematographers. And so many actors I've worked with, both on stage and on screen, feel uncomfortable when they first step onto a film set, and I wanted to run a seminar so that actors would know what it's like to come onto a film set, and what the assistant directors do, what the the first assistant directors do, what the the director wants, what the cinematographer wants. So, so all those things very useful for them. And then going back to something you and I talked about a lot in this, in this, in this discussion, is I wanted very much to run a course for writers so they would understand the technical aspects of filmmaking, and they could employ that in their writing to make them better screenwriters. So yeah, we set that up. We've got a website called somebody studios.com you can see all the seminars there. People can sign up, I think that they from the time they sign up, they've got a month to watch the individual seminar they've selected, or they can sign up for multiple ones. And the course has been very successful in the past. Not only do I teach the course, but then afterwards, I have a Q and A and we keep the lines open, and we make sure people have access to me in the future for advice. I want to help others, as I've been helped over all these many years, and I really very much looking forward to it, July the 15th. We go live with everything. So we're getting very close to that date. So I hope people go to the website, pick something out for themselves, and see what they might be able to learn.

Dave Bullis 54:53
And I will also link to link to the your seminars in the show notes, you know, as well as any other. Site you have Steven, and it's just great too, because it's something that I've learned over the years. Whenever I want to take a seminar or a webinar or read a book or a filmmaking book, one thing I always my one sort of barrier to entry to reading it or buying it is the person has had to have some kind of experience. I think you've also seen it, Stephen, where you sort of see a book in the in maybe in a Barnes and Nobles, or on Amazon, and you see that they're, you know, the person that wrote it has never written a screenplay or never actually made it, made a film. And you say to yourself, well, what would they possibly know about something that they've never done? It's, a lot like me teaching you how to build a car and then saying, Well, I'm not a mechanic, nor have I ever designed one. I see you. You've actually, you've been there, you know, you've done that. You've done it many, many times over 30 years. And you know, and again, that's why I was blown away by having you on this podcast. Because you know, you've, you've done I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, Steven half baked, I remember watching that movie on repeat over and over again, you know, growing up, because it was just absolutely hilarious. I mean, you've been able to sort of go in and out of, you know, comedy with half baked in Scary Movie two into Monster, which is more of a of a, not only as a drama, but it's also a personal introspective of the of these two women. Who are, you know, who are, you know, literal and figurative monsters, and then, you know, you now, you're doing your own projects, so it's always good to learn from somebody who's actually has gone out there and done it.

Steven Bernstein 56:33
Well, thank you. And I have done a lot of different things. I'm a producer now, a director, a writer, cinematographer. It's not to always been easy, but it's interesting. When you get to farther down the road, you realize how each of these things informs the other. I'm a better producer because I was a cinematographer. I'm a better director because I'm a writer and a cinematographer. And it's not just the films that have been made. I guess, in the last 18 months, I've been commissioned to write five other major feature films. It's been a very, very busy period for us. We have a TV series that's an advanced stage of development. And the reason I am now writing so quickly and so efficiently is that I'm borrowing from my other experiences as a producer, as a cinematographer, as a director, and I realize what I need to write and what I don't I understand what will work best and what works most efficiently, and it's a help. So look, if I can help others understand all these things based on my experience, I'm more than happy to impart it to them.

Dave Bullis 57:41
And you know, Steven, I know we're just about out of time. I want to again, say thank you so much for coming on and imparting your wisdom here for the past hour. And just in closing, where can people find you out online? You have any other social media links, and also you may, and just to give that seminar link again,

Steven Bernstein 57:57
Well, it's the key one to go to, and this links to pretty much everything to do with me is somebodystudios.com you can also find me, Steven Bernstein, writer, director online, and there's usually links to our courses or what's going on in my life there. Steve Bernstein, director, writer on Instagram as well. And of course, I say somebodystudios.com is pretty much available on all social media platforms, so we really hope that people might join us. Thanks

Dave Bullis 58:30
And everyone I will link to that in our show notes on the Dave bulls podcast. It's at davebullis.com Twitter, you can find me at dave_bullis. Steven Bernstein, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, sir.

Steven Bernstein 58:43
My very great pleasure. Was a great talk. Thank you so much.

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BPS 421: Behind the Scenes of Sharknado: Turning Sci-Fi Madness into Storytelling Gold with Andrew Shaffer

May 29, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The mind is a curious trickster, delighting in dreams where logic pirouettes in absurdity. In today’s extraordinary episode, we welcome Andrew Shaffer, a humorist and New York Times bestselling author whose wit slices through the storms of reality with a twinkle in his eye and a chainsaw in hand.

From the earliest pages of his life, Andrew Shaffer was destined to dance with the ridiculous and sublime. As a child, he devoured horror and science fiction with a ravenous appetite, only to find himself drawn back to these imaginative playgrounds after a detour through the hallowed halls of literary fiction. His journey led him, almost inevitably, to the playful chaos of “How to Survive a Sharknado,” a manual for the absurd that demands both laughter and preparation.

In the dance of ideas, Andrew revealed how the birth of the Sharknado survival guide was as spontaneous as a tornado filled with teeth. Inspired by the original cult film, he offered his humorous talents when Random House and SyFy decided to create a companion book. Imagine being tasked with making flying sharks scientifically plausible; as he put it, “I had to talk to a marine biologist and ask, not could this happen, but how it might happen.” It is in such delightfully impossible questions that the spirit of creativity is set loose.

Throughout the conversation, there was a beautiful lightness, the kind one finds when nonsense is taken seriously. Andrew’s research involved binge-watching over 30 sci-fi films—some genuine, some fabricated solely for the book—to weave an interconnected universe of mayhem. When asked how one might survive a Sharknado, he smiled into the void and said, “The answer in the book is simple: Stand and fight. Grab a chainsaw.” It is a lesson not just for storms of sharks, but for all the monstrous whirlwinds that life throws at us.

Yet beneath the chuckles and chainsaws, Andrew’s words echoed a deeper wisdom. Too much meta-awareness, he warned, robs a story of its soul. “If everybody’s in on the joke,” he said, “then the joke itself isn’t that funny anymore.” Ah, but isn’t that true of life itself? When we cling too tightly to cleverness, we risk missing the raw wonder that makes each absurdity luminous.

Perhaps the most chilling revelation of the day was the invincibility of the ghost shark, a creature birthed from sci-fi chaos. Manifesting from toilets, swimming pools, and even water bottles, it served as a reminder: some forces cannot be outrun; they must be met with courage, humor, and an open heart.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
This is a very important podcast, because we're going to teach you in this episode to how to survive a Sharknado. Now, Sharknado three is going to air on the Sci Fi Channel on July the 22nd this is going up the day before, but if you're a subscriber, it's going up about one to two days early, so you can get even even quicker preparation for battling this Sharknado. I know you're all very interested, so I'm gonna get right into it. And without further ado, here's the interview with Andrew Schaefer, author of How to Survive a Sharknado. Joining me today is Andrew Shaffer. Andrew is a humorist and New York Times best selling author who works include the great philosophers who failed at love the Goodreads choice semi finalists, 50 shames of Earl Grey's, oh, great tea. And sci fi is how to survive a sharknado and other natural, unnatural disasters. Uh, Andrew, how are you doing today, sir?

Andrew Shaffer 2:51
I'm awake. It's about 3pm here on the west coast.

Dave Bullis 2:58
So, very cool. Um, so could you just give us a little bit about your background, and you know how you got started as an author?

Andrew Shaffer 3:05
How I got started as an author? I've always sort of been, I was always into reading as a child, and I sort of thought that the natural thing then was to start writing, and I didn't, I don't think I realized early on that not everybody who, who reads books, you know, gets the inclination to also write them. It just felt like a very natural progression to me. But early on, as a child, I was very much into horror and science fiction, any type of mystery, any type of genre fiction, was really what I sort of devoured at the time. Then I took a little detour in terms of I went to college, where I studied at at the University of Iowa with with writers workshop students there, which is a very it's much more of a literary fiction sort of training. And I got into that for a little bit a while, but I found myself sort of gravitating more back towards genre fiction, young adult, just stuff that that that was sort of more entertaining, I thought. And that's kind of where I find myself right now. Is going from maybe sort of more of a literary non fiction books, moving more into genre, stuff like the How to Survive a Sharkndo,

Dave Bullis 4:37
Yeah, very cool. And that's a very important book, because we all know sharknados can happen. So I wanted to ask you, how did you actually pitch this book? I mean, did you actually pitch it to sci fi as as like you? Because I know in the book, you cover other of their movies too,

Andrew Shaffer 4:58
Yeah. I mean, the great thing about this play. So I watched Sharknado, the first movie, and I let my agent know I was like, if you know, if there's, like, a novelization or something, I'd love to do that. Of course, there wasn't with the first movie, but then she heard that Random House and the Sci Fi Channel were looking to do something with the second movie, some type of tie in. And they had the idea to do a survival guide, sort of like the Zombie Survival Guide by Max Brooks. And it was something that I did a so I don't think, I don't think originally, you know, they thought, really thought of me, because I wasn't writing any type of genre stuff at the time. I just had parody come out, though, 50 shames of Earl gray. So they kind of said, well, you kind of do the humor writing. And I did a sample for it. They ended up liking it, and asked me to write the book then. So it came together pretty fast. I had to watch about, I don't know it was like 30 or 40 different sci fi movies to to actually write the book and sort of ties them all together, sort of in one universe.

Dave Bullis 6:10
Okay, excellent. So you know when, when you did actually pitch to sci fi? Were they really open to using all their other movies as well?

Andrew Shaffer 6:18
We had a list to go off of. I mean, I had some that I wanted to use that we weren't able to but they had a list of, you know, somewhere, probably about 50 or 60, that they had licensing that we could work with. And then there was just so much that we're off limits. So it was basically I had to go with what they gave me, and then sort of narrow it down from there. And then we actually ended up creating a bunch for the for the guidebook. So there's about 10 or 12 in there. I think that that are actually unique and original to the book.

Dave Bullis 6:51
And what's cool is because if you haven't seen all the sci fi movies, you can actually go through and try to figure out which ones are created and which ones are actually real movies?

Andrew Shaffer 7:02
Yeah, that's, that's the funny thing. I've had some people pick up the book and go, How did you come up with some of this crap? I'm like, I didn't. It's just, you know, you can actually go. They're like, there should be a movie about this. And I'm like, well, guess what? You know, you you can go see a Corona conda movie. And it's pretty amazing.

Dave Bullis 7:24
So could you elaborate, you know, on some of the monsters that you wanted to use, but you couldn't?

Andrew Shaffer 7:32
I don't, I don't even really remember exactly which ones we couldn't use offside my head, but I know that, you know, there were, we had to sort of narrow it down to, to what, what was sort of, we didn't want to have, like, like 30 different shark based ones, you know. So there were some, but we used use most of the, the big Sci Fi Channel movies that that they've done that were kind of hits, like shark to pus and coronaconda and stuff, even stone eight. Oh, so it was, so it was, it there wasn't really a lot that was left on the cutting room floor I'd say,

Dave Bullis 8:16
Okay, interesting. So, you know, so when you're you're writing this book, and you're piecing this all together. Did you actually watch each individual movie and sort of make a list and make a lot of notes on each

Andrew Shaffer 8:27
Oh my gosh, yeah, I had to watch every, every movie that we included 3,4,5, times to really pick up everything that was going on and kind of look at different angles and stuff so, so it was, really, I approached it sort of like I did my non fiction books, which was just a lot of research, and then I had to try to figure out scientific explanations for how some of this stuff happened in the real world. And, you know, they're that's not something they're thinking about really. When they're making the movie, they're thinking, make something entertaining, but to write it down in a book, I was like, I need to come up with reasons why, you know, sharks can survive when flying around inside of a tornado. You know, how, what? How do I make that sort of believable? And so I, like, talked to like a marine biologist for that. And I was like, How did you know, is this, you know, not, could this happen, but, but what's a logical way to make this, you know, happen?

Dave Bullis 9:30
So when you, when you interviewed that marine biologist, did he or she know what Sharknado was before you talked to them?

Andrew Shaffer 9:37
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. The biologist spoke to she was a, she was a huge fan of these sci fi movies, actually, and and was, you know, really thrilled to answer my questions and stuff. She's like, she's like, we really love them. They're, you know, they're, I don't want to say, use the word terrible. I forget what. Word she used. But I mean, they're just, they're just entertaining. You can turn your mind off while watching them. And you don't have to worry about the scientific stuff behind it. They said this just, just for pure, you know, entertainment value,

Dave Bullis 10:22
You know, I was just, you know, when you brought that up, I was actually wondering, you know, if, if she hadn't heard of that, and you just went, you know, you know, could a shark and a tornado come together, and she would have been like, could you get this crazy man out of my office, please?

Andrew Shaffer 10:36
I know. I know. Yeah, so, yeah. So, some of that stuff we you know, was, was a lot of fun to sort of research, you know. And then there's other stuff. I mean, I think there was one movie that I watched that I watched it probably 10 times, and I couldn't figure out anyway, not only to make the science work in real life, but I couldn't figure out how the science worked in the movie. I was like, this movie doesn't really make much sense. And I was like, probably gonna cut this one out of the pocket.

Dave Bullis 11:07
So, you know, you know, you, you know, you wrote this book during the and it coincided with the release of Sharknado two. So, you know. So now, with Sharknado three coming out, you know, I wanted to ask you, what are some of your expectations about Sharknado three?

Andrew Shaffer 11:26
You know, I really didn't have any expectations even for the second Sharknado, because I hadn't, hadn't seen it at a time, or read the script or anything. So the second one itself was kind of a surprise. I kind of, you know, had an idea of that it would kind of be a little bit more meta than the first one, and it was. And so the third one I, you know, I was, I'm kind of hoping it goes a little bit back to basics, but which is, you know, really taking the concept as seriously as possible. I think it's something that, once it gets to meta, it becomes, if everybody's in on the joke, you know, then then the joke itself isn't that funny anymore. So I kind of like see a little more serious but, but I don't really know what direction they're going to take it. Yeah, I want to say a more personal Sharknado film. Maybe that's where you have to reboot the franchise.

Dave Bullis 12:31
Yeah, I really want to see a more like David Lynch a Sharknado film, you know. But, but yeah, you know. I completely agree with you on that point. I, you know, I also noticed that in the second one there was a lot more celebrity cameos. Like, pretty much, you know what I mean. Like, every time they went somewhere, there's a new celebrity. I hear now, there's, like, even more celebrities in Sharknado three.

Andrew Shaffer 12:57
Oh yeah, it's everybody wants it wants to, you know, be in on it, be in on the joke. And I think, you know, I don't know if it's a situation where the celebrities are just contacting them and say, I'll work for no money or something, and they're like, how can we refuse that? You know, they really can't say, you know, if David Hasselhoff wants to be in your movie or something, they for no money. It really can't say no to that. It's not like they're courting these celebrities. I don't think so. I mean, yeah, I think it's just gonna have, it's definitely gonna have more celebrity cameos. If you tried to play a celebrity cameo with drinking game or something with Sharknado two, you would have died. I mean, there were so many that are coming so fast, you didn't even know, you know, you couldn't even tell who was an actor, who was a celebrity. You know, it was, it was it came pretty fast and furious.

Dave Bullis 13:52
It did. And I think you're right too. I think there might have been called people who who attempted to do a drinking game, and the results probably weren't so well for them. So you're jumping back to your book, you know, in the chapter, you have an entire, you know, chapter, obviously, just to Sharknado. So, you know, I have to ask the question is, you know, how do you survive a sharknado?

Andrew Shaffer 14:18
How do you survive a sharknado, a lot of people said, just don't watch it. But I mean, I mean, the simple answer of, you know, how do you survive a Sharknado is, as some people think, Oh, well, I survived. I survived by, you know, going to the basement, same way I'd survive a tornado, which really doesn't work because a lot of times during a sharknado, you also have associated flooding with that. The only way to really escape it is to just drive as fast as possible out of town, which, if you're in LA or someplace else where there's going to be a bunch of traffic jams or something, that's just not going to be part. Possible. So, yeah, there's, there's really no good answer that you know. The answer in the book is, you know, Stand and fight. You know, grab a chainsaw, grab whatever you can instead, you know, and and fight back when these things fly at you. So, you know, but I, but personally, I'm, I'm not, like, a survivalist or anything. I mean, I had to research survival stuff for the book. But I don't, you know, I'm so bad about falling in real life, you know, I'm like, I don't have, like, a natural disaster kit. I don't have, you know, three pallets of bald water stored up here, which I probably should, after reading that New Yorker article on earthquakes on the Pacific Northwest this week. So,

Dave Bullis 15:51
Yeah, I read that same article. Apparently, in 50 years, Seattle is just going to be nothing.

Andrew Shaffer 15:57
Yeah, yeah, Seattle is going to get the worst of it. I think Portland, where I'm at is, you know, it's, there's gonna be some, some stuff fall off the wall or something. I don't know. It's not that. It's not gonna be too bad in Portland. I don't think,

Dave Bullis 16:12
Yeah, and just case anybody doesn't know what Andrew and I are talking about, I'll link to that in the show notes so you can read up on that. And then, you know, get scared to death. Be like, Oh my god. So, you know, Andrew, I've had some some fan questions come in, if you don't mind answering a few Sure. So the first question I received was, Andrew, what was the most unstoppable monster that you researched for the book?

Andrew Shaffer 16:39
The most unstoppable monster was the ghost shark, because there's just really no good way to stop a ghost like, like, there was actually a movie too, with, with the guy from bowl, from Night Court. I was in this movie, and it this shark appeared, manifested anywhere there was water. So it was in a swimming pool. One came out of a toilet, another came out of a bottle of water, and there was no way to get away from it anywhere you went. I was just like and it never got full of eating people. So it just went around and around us, eating people and stuff. And I'm like, how do you stop this thing? And I'm trying to think of, you know, there you basically, it's, you have to do some elaborate ghost trapping or something. But, but really it was like, it was like, on, on, on, you know, on a one to one level, you know, an individual level. There was nothing you could do to stop it besides find the, the whatever talisman it was in the movie. So, yeah, it goes straight, pretty frightening stuff.

Dave Bullis 17:59
Now, see, I'll check that movie out because I had no, no idea that was actually a real movie.

Andrew Shaffer 18:04
Oh, my God, it is amazing. Just, just the number of number. There's, there's this amazing bikini Car Wash scene where, where the ghost shark materializes out of a bucket of water. It's, it's just crazy.

Dave Bullis 18:26
So, you know, a follow up question is, Andrew, are you playing on writing a sequel to the book?

Andrew Shaffer 18:34
No, no. And basically, I think, you know, I don't know what else I could say about sharknados, or actually, about most paranormal threats or supernatural stuff like that, but, but I am working on another book that will hopefully be sort of along the similar lines as far as horror goes.

Dave Bullis 19:01
Oh, very cool. Could you tell us a little bit about it, or you want to keep it hush hush?

Andrew Shaffer 19:06
It's like super hush hush, right now.

Dave Bullis 19:08
Okay, so All right, then our on to the next question. We had come in from Michelle the trainer, who was a big fan of the show. Is Andrew a scuba diver, conservationist? Or so? I'm sorry, that was the first part of the question. Sorry, I was just reading a reading, reading. So are you a scuba diver? Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 19:30
No, I'm not. No, no, I've never gone scuba diving.

Dave Bullis 19:33
And the second part of that was any plans for sharktopus?

Andrew Shaffer 19:40
Well, like survival for the sharktopus. Yeah. So the shark to pus is in the book, but in terms of this year's new movie coming out, Sharktopus versus Whale Wolf, which is the third sharktopus movie, And which are which? Again, if you haven't seen the Sharktopus movies, those are phenomenally entertaining as well, but in terms of how to survive a Sharktopus again, it was like, I started to write some some of these, and I was like, the best thing you can do is just to to move as far away from the coast as possible. Because a lot of these threats in the book that I wrote about were all like, sort of water based threats. And I'm like, unless you like, live in Florida or LA or something, or along the coast, you're fine, but then you get inland, and then I said, then you find yourself in Nebraska. And I mean, I don't you, I don't know. So,

Dave Bullis 20:55
So the next question that came in was, if Andrew was going to create his own sci fi monster. What kind of monster would he create?

Andrew Shaffer 21:05
Well, I think that what kind of monster I would create. I had an idea for one that was not used in the book, and it was called a wolf Blizzard, which was a pun on the CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, and it was just a blizzard of wolves. And that actually got rejected for the book, because they were like, it's, it's the pun is too far. Like it's, they're like, there's like an there's like a line that we would never go past, and you just passed it. And I was like, oh my god, I can't believe I found the line where you will not cross so, but I would still like to I was like. I was like, I'm gonna go write this script.

Dave Bullis 21:55
So for all the aspiring writers listening to this, Andrew has just shown you the line in the sand that Sci Fi Channel will not cross.

Andrew Shaffer 22:04
Yes, yes.

Dave Bullis 22:08
So Andrew, I wanted to ask right now, you know, what are your future plans on publishing? I know there's a project that's very hush hush, but is there any other projects you're working on, or anything else you could tell us about right now?

Andrew Shaffer 22:20
Yeah, I'm also working on a on a young adult novel that that's something I've been working on for a while. I've got a few things that are like in the pipeline, but it's just like, you get a fun, you know, find the right sort of place for them, at a publisher, or either self publish it or whatever, and just got to wait for sort of the stars to align. And until that happens, I don't have any good news to announce. It's kind of boring, like it's something my mom calls me all the time and says, Oh, when's your next book coming out? And I'm like, I don't know. You'll be the first one to know. Don't worry.

Dave Bullis 23:01
So Andrew, I wanted to ask you too, you know, your book, Sharknado, was on sale. Is it still on sale right now?

Andrew Shaffer 23:09
Yeah, as of today, it is for us for like, $1.90 book. I don't know how long the sale is going to last, though.

Dave Bullis 23:15
Okay, so when this is up, you know, hopefully I will link to Andrews book in the show notes, hopefully it'll, if it's not on sale, it's still a relatively good buy. And I guarantee you it's, it is, you know, it's entertaining. It's hilarious. And, like, Look at me. I've learned a lot about the Sci Fi Channel movies because I'm, you know, I've known about ghost shark today.

Andrew Shaffer 23:36
Yeah, it's a value at any price, you know. And the book is like 40 megabytes because it has a bunch of drawings in it. So, you know, that's about 20 times the size of another file, download for a regular prose book. So, I mean, you know, that's what a deal, right? Yeah?

Dave Bullis 23:56
Because when I was flipping through it, I went to, obviously, I went to the Sharknado chapter. And greeting me is a, you know, a black and white hand drawn picture of a shark. Nano, right,

Andrew Shaffer 24:07
Right, right. I mean, and the book's got recipes, you know, excerpts from classic literature that I have completely trashed, such as Moby Dick. So, yeah, it's got a lot of stuff in there.

Dave Bullis 24:24
It's got something for everybody. So, you know, in Andrew, in closing, you know, is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you wanted to mention, or any, any, you know, closing thoughts or final thoughts?

Andrew Shaffer 24:38
No, my mind is, my mind is completely blank I do in like this meditation class right now. So I'm learning to sort of wipe away all thoughts in my mind. You know, normally I would have 100 things to talk about right now, but right now it's just like it's, I'm I'm learning to zone out and go blank.

Dave Bullis 24:59
All right. Andrew, where do you find you at online?

Andrew Shaffer 25:03
Oh, my goodness, anywhere. Twitter, Facebook, Google, you know, all someone has to do is Google my name. Andrew Shaffer, S, H, A, F, F, E, R, as long as they spell it right, they can find me, you know, which is, you know, kind of disturbing, but I'm all over the place,

Dave Bullis 25:25
And I'll make sure to to link to all that in the show notes too. I'll link to your website and your Twitter.

Andrew Shaffer 25:31
You don't you don't have to just make them work for it. Work for it. Okay?

Dave Bullis 25:35
I will not link to Andrew's info in the show notes, so you will have to work for it, then it'll be the first time. But I will not, I promise you, I will not link to that in the show notes. But Andrew, want to say thank you very much for coming on again everyone. It's how to survive a sharknado and other unnatural disasters that it's I will link to the, I will link to this and the show notes, but it's right to the Kindle version. And is there a physical version of this book too Andrew?

Andrew Shaffer 26:03
There is. There is because, you know, once, once a sharknado or some other type of disaster hits, you need the physical version. You know, you can be able to charge your phone or whatnot. So, you know, I always advise people to get the e book and the physical version and just being on the safe side.

Dave Bullis 26:22
See, that's why you're the publisher, because that's that. That is forethought, my friend, yes, yes, you won't have That's right. So, you know, the physical the the ebook I have, you know, if it does, the power goes out, I won't be able to find it. So honestly, look into the physical version now too. Yeah. So Andrew, I want to say thank you so much for coming on everyone. The book is how to survive a sharknado. Andrew, thanks again for coming on and again. Feel free to, you know, drop me an email anytime, and I'd love to have you back sometime.

Andrew Shaffer 26:52
Yeah, great time chatting with you, Dave.

Dave Bullis 26:54
Oh, you too, my friend. Take care everyone.

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BPS 420: Out of Time and the Back to the Future DeLorean Documentary with Steve Concotelli

May 22, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Today on the show we have documentary filmmaker Steve Concotelli, the director of OUTATIME: Saving the DeLorean Time Machine. Out of Time is the documentary about the restoration of the screen used Back to the Future DeLorean Time Machine.

We discuss how the film came to be, his Kickstarter campaign, getting the rights from Universal, working with Back to the Future co-creator, producer and overall Godfather Bob Gale and how he distributed his little indie doc.

Here’s some more info on Steve. Steve has been a creative force in the entertainment industry for over 10 years. He began his career as an Editor on G4’s “Attack of the Show”. Since then, Steve has worked nearly every job in production including Writer, Producer, Videographer, and ultimately, Executive Producer. His clients span the creative landscape and include Disney, Crackle, Paramount, Science Channel, Discovery, TruTV, Spike and more.

In 2015, Steve partnered with Universal Pictures to create OUTATIME: Saving the Back to the Future DeLorean Time Machine, a feature-length documentary about Back to the Future. Steve wrote, produced, directed, and edited the film. Since its release, OUTATIME has received critical praise, winning the “Best Documentary” Award at the 2016 Gen Con Film Festival. Currently, Steve is the Senior Creative Producer at Cricket Pictures in Los Angeles.

Enjoy my “time-bending” interview with Steve Concotelli

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:18
How are you doing, sir?

Steve Concotelli 3:30
I'm doing just fine. How are you Alex?

Alex Ferrari 3:32
Thank you, brother. Thank you, man, thanks so much for being on the show. I'm a huge fan of your movie out of time. And you know, I'm obviously a huge fan of Back to the Future. And I thought this would be a beautiful melding of, of not only geeking out because we are going to geek out in this episode a bit, but also discovering how you made the movie and went down the road and your Kickstarter your distribution plan and get to the nuts and bolts of actually making the movie but while we geek out a bit. So what gave you the idea of making out of time? Like how did you even wake up one morning go? I'm going to make a movie about restoring the DeLorean?

Steve Concotelli 4:11
Well, it's interesting. It started back in 2011 when Universal Studios first announced that they were going to restore the screen use Time Machine. And at the time to give a brief history at the time the screen just car had really started falling apart. You know it had been out at the Universal Studios backlog for 30 years. It was not in great shape. And so universal and Bob Gale made the announcement they were going to restore it. And I was fortunate enough to be very close friends with Joe Walzer who was the superfan in charge of the restoration. And so here you had this phenomenal year long restoration project that was going to kick off. And you know, I said well, is anybody filming this is you know, is anybody going to turn this into a movie because fans would love to see the nuts and bolts of this restoration and it turned out nobody had any plans. Do it. And so, you know, I kept asking who's doing this? Who's doing this? And finally just kind of dawned on me like, Oh, crap, I guess it's gonna be me then. Right? And and so I took it upon myself to just start documenting the entire restoration in the hopes of possibly turning it into a film, which we then did.

Alex Ferrari 5:19
And now How did you get Bob Gill and universal involved and actually get them to say, Hey, you, you're official, we give you the stamp of approval.

Steve Concotelli 5:30
That was a very, very long and nerve wracking process and beyond. Well, yeah, because I didn't work for Universal Studios. And so, you know, when I started shooting it, it wasn't exactly, you know, done with official authorization, I'll say that much. It was done. I was part of the restoration team, I was documenting it. And that was fine. But you know, turning it into a film is something that was entirely next level, like when you work with a studio, there's approvals and IP and licensing, and there's a lot of things that back then I had no concept of

Alex Ferrari 6:01
And they are not. And Back to the Future in the DeLorean. It's fairly popular IP.

Steve Concotelli 6:07
Yeah, that's the among their most popular intellectual property. And so we did it very slowly, and very methodically. And essentially, what it boiled down to is Bob Gale. Now, now Bob, is the CO creator of the Back to the Future trilogy, you know, he wrote them produce them, and he is the Godfather, even to this day of all things back to the future. So if any product, anything back to the future, gets approved, it goes through him, he's the authority. And luckily, Bob was spearheading the restoration, he was directly in charge of it. So as the restoration progressed, I got a chance to meet Bob and know Bob, and we put together halfway through the restoration, we did like a little five minute, here's what's going on with the restoration update that Bob hosted. So I shot footage of him. And we got to know each other and kind of test the waters to see what kind of reaction you know, the restoration footage would get. And, and, but yeah, and then, as we progressed and got further and further into filming, you know, it became clear like, Look, I really need to get some official endorsement from Universal. Because, you know, by the time a year long restoration was done, and then say a year of an interview, as I was two years into a project, I wasn't even sure I could produce legal. And like, oh, boy, what are we going to do? So Bob, sat me down with universals licensing team, their marketing teams, to to essentially essentially make a pitch for me to say, Look, he knows what he's doing. He's been doing this a long time. And, you know, basically, Bob gave me his official endorsement. But even then, I don't think universal was quite on board until 2015. I mean, that's three, three years that I wasn't sure. And then that's when they asked me to possibly put together something for the 30th anniversary blu ray that came out, you know, and they said, Can you do you have enough footage that you can cut together? Maybe a 15 minute feature out? I said, Sure. No problem. And I'm sure Universal Studios was afraid that, you know, I was just going to make them look terrible, because the shape of the car. And then I sent them a quick cut. And they saw it and as soon as they saw my movie, as soon as they saw they, they're like, okay, we totally get it. We're totally on board. Because it's it's not about blame. It's not about you know, oh, criticizing this party. It's not about fans being you know, sniping at each other. It's about celebrating this great car and everybody coming together to get it restored. And yeah, once they saw all their fears were gone. This Yep, will license this. You can have access to everything you need. I got all the proper permissions and all that stuff. And we were off like a shot but but it was I want understated, it was three years of very nervous, is this going to happen? Because all it would have taken was one phone call from universals legal department and boom, the whole film would have been shut down. And this is you know, after two and a half years of my time. So it was it was a it was a tough long road that I'm sure a couple other any filmmakers out there understand

Alex Ferrari 9:01
Oh, yeah, i know a few.

Steve Concotelli 9:03
Yeah, you know, and it, it could have easily broken the other way. And yeah, I had more than a few sleepless nights, sleepless months about that, to be honest.

Alex Ferrari 9:12
So Bob Gale was basically you were Donnie Brasco, and Bob Gale was alpa Chino. Yeah. And he's just he's the He's fine. He's with me. Work. Yeah. So he got you in the door, but it was your work that kept you in the door.

Steve Concotelli 9:25
Correct. I mean, Bob. Yeah, that's exactly what it was he he opened the door and he wouldn't have gone to bat for me if by then I hadn't already proven myself as a professional. You know, and the story I was trying to tell and yeah, you know, once universal saw it, they they embraced it. So definitely, but it took a lot of convincing and a lot of baby steps. And, and boy, you could do a whole episode just on the difficulty of trying to license intellectual property from a studio because, like, like, I'm a fan. Like when I started this movie, I truly had no idea of what it took to make a movie like this because I'm sure a lot of your listeners are thinking, Oh, you make a movie with the time machine, you go and shoot your footage, and you own it. So you just go and go and make a movie. But it turns out not to be the case. Because the car is owned by DreamWorks, or, you know, a subset of universal for it, the intellectual property, and then Universal Studios owns the film rights, and then you have to get approvals from you know, the producers and any actors that appear in the footage. And, and I had no concept of how to do any of that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 10:26
Let me ask you a question, though. And this is just a this now we're getting into a little bit of the weeds as far as legal and documentary is concerned. But documentaries do have a lot more leeway than narrative do in the sense that like, you know, I can remember Fahrenheit 911 where, you know, Michael Moore was basically ripping apart the the president of the time, George Bush, and he was using him in his documentary, and he was he didn't get any obviously didn't get any permission for that. How does it work? Why can't you just document something and release it to a certain extent or not?

Steve Concotelli 11:00
Well, I bet if I wanted to put it on YouTube, I probably could have gotten away with it, but I wanted to release it and try to make money off of it. And that's, that's an entirely different ballpark. Because if you're trying to monetize somebody else's intellectual property, that's, that's the line you you have to have legal permission for. And, and to be honest, you know, like, I was getting to know, Bob and I have tremendous respect for universal. I wanted to do it the right way. You know, I, I wanted Universal Studios to endorse the film and, and, and be a part of it and not fight against it. And, you know, I did, I didn't want to just try to release it as like a fan documentary, I wanted their stamp of approval so that the world would know, like, Look, universal, has declared this the official time machine documentary, and, you know, it's, it's quality content. And, and thankfully, that's what happened. And yeah, and the blu ray in 2015 really kind of jump started that because once once I had a little 15 minute feature at on the official blu ray, I was an official part of the franchise and that right, and that helped that but I, you know, it's still involved, you know, licensing and paperwork and attorneys and title clearances. You know, I mean, even even the title of my film, which is out of time, like the Time Machine license plate, even that was like, when I started Can I use that? Is that owned by somebody does universal own that does the DMV on that? Who do I have to ask? And you know, all these questions had to go down this infinite rabbit hole of minutia and felt like okay, you somebody universal said it was okay, I use this, you know, and it's just, it's, it's so far out in the weeds when you're producing these indie Doc's that it just it boggles the mind. You spend like 75 or 80% of your time dealing with things that have nothing to do with making your movie, as I'm sure you can attest.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yes, absolutely. No, I was, I was working on a show for Hulu, and the characters that the ads director and the producers wanted to get some universal characters on some t shirts, like yeah, like that they live. And the Brian Frank glasses. Yeah, exact because the whole show was about the whole episode of that series was about guys putting eyeglasses so it was kind of like a wink, wink, nudge nudge. And they got it. You know, they it was, it was fairly simple, honestly, to get a right to get the they live logo or whatever. Put on a T shirt. And you have to make it yourself. It has to be custom. You can't sell the T shirt. But it was but it did. There was some paperwork. And then there was a back and forth and they wanted some other people that like, yeah, we kind of own that one. But it's also a quarter owned by somebody else. Exactly. So you might have to go somewhere else. So exactly like you're talking about, like the DeLorean his own partly by DreamWorks or Spielberg at that point, right?

Steve Concotelli 13:45
Yeah, it's, it's a subset of one of the conglomerates and somebody, you know, the appropriate person at the appropriate subset company had to have an email that says, you know, yes, we authorize this, you know, and again, they don't know who I am. I'm just a fan trying to make a film and, and studios, and rightfully so are very leery about, you know, fans saying, hey, I want to make a movie about your movie. Let me use your IP or your footage. Sure. And And so yeah, it's uh, I'll say this. If you're making a unique documentary about something like unrelated, go for it. But to make a feature Doc, about a very famous feature film is among the most difficult and dumbest things you can try to do. Well, there was a movie. The the shark, the shark.

Alex Ferrari 14:28
Shark is still working. Yeah, you're still working, which was legendary, because it took forever for it to come out. Like they had interviews with Roy Scheider before he died and, and they had Spielberg they had Dreyfus they had everybody and universal was like, I don't know and this is where everybody was like, when is this coming out? I remember that. And finally, it got released like on the 30th anniversary or whatever. 40th anniversary Yeah, release on a DVD somewhere and we finally get to see it, which was a great doc but What a one thing saving, but you were better?

Steve Concotelli 15:04
Well, I appreciate it. But I think they had the same thing to where, when the anniversary of jaws came around the studio was looking for content that tied into that. And here, you know, these fans had essentially made this entire film for them, like, oh, why don't we just give them the okay to release that, you know, and, and my situation on out of time was kind of similar. Were back in 2011, when the restoration started, and I started shooting footage, I was already thinking, look, in three years, they're probably going to do a 30th anniversary release. And then they're gonna want some of this content, right. And sure enough, you know, in 2015, universal called, hey, we're thinking about a blu ray, do you have something? I'm like, I got you covered. Believe me.

Alex Ferrari 15:48
I've got so I'm looking at your blu ray as we speak, sir. Yeah, I've got that. 30 that aversary.

Steve Concotelli 15:55
Yeah. And I have a nice little out of time feature right on there, which, you know, is a fan is no, I think that's something that I did completely by myself, like my own time. With my own crappy camera editing it on my own crappy home edit system is on the official back the future blu ray, like behind Doc Brown is mind boggling. I still can't believe it. But it happened.

Alex Ferrari 16:17
Now you you also started a Kickstarter campaign. And you knew you'd launch the Kickstarter game, which was fairly successful. It was very successful, actually. Yeah. Now, how did you prep and launch the Kickstarter campaign? Because I've had, I mean, I did my own crowdfunding campaign for my feature film. And but you know, this is it could be a beast, but you also have you also had a, a wonderful audience to tap into. So how did you prep it and launch it?

Steve Concotelli 16:47
Well, Kickstarter is its own separate nightmare. I'll just start by that. All right, Kickstarter, for all the people who think Look at all that free money. Now, if I had simply gone to work every day, and work a regular job, I would have made far more money. That's a simple true, amen. And Kickstarter is a nightmare. And even like, your worst fear with Kickstarter is that you won't succeed. Your second worst fear is that you do succeed. Now, why is that? Why is that? Well, because if you're wildly successful, suddenly, you know, like, I found myself with 600, bosses, all demanding, like, when is this going to be done? We know when, when or what are you doing what's going on. And it was like having 6600 managers emailing me all the time, asking questions, and vast majority were great, but you do get some squeaky wheels. And I was very, very sensitive, because first, I wanted to have a good Kickstarter. But second is that I didn't want anybody bad mouthing me to Universal Studios. Because whether whether I accepted it or not, by having this film, and Bob Gale was in my Kickstarter video, so by having by having his endorsement, I, whether I like it or not represent Back to the Future. I represent the franchise and I represent the studio. And I took all that very seriously. So every time I would answer a question or deal with the public, I did it professionally straightforward in the most kind of corporate appeasing way that I could, because the last thing I wanted to do was to have you know, Bob, get some angry email from a family who is this? Who's the Steve guy? And what's he doing? And he's running Back to the Future like that would have been the death of my film. Right. But but to backtrack, and in terms of what we did, we, we set the bar, our goal for the film was $25,000, which I thought was pretty reasonable. And I didn't think we'd hit it. And Joe Walzer, who is the head of the restoration, and he's the main guy in the film, he was very involved in one thing Joe does aside from making time machines is he's a master at marketing. And he said, Steve, we're gonna blow the doors off it. And I didn't believe him. And he goes, trust me, within 24 hours, we hit our $25,000 like one. And then I think we ended around 75,000, which was three times our goal, which is great. But nervous and, and the way we prepped for it was I would say, not enough. That's not exactly true. I I benefited because during the entire restoration, Joe had set up a Facebook page for the time machine restoration team. And it was for fans to kind of track the progress and Joe was very tied into all the Back to the Future online Facebook pages, the big ones, all of them. So he already had access to a very large very rabid Back to the Future audience. And that was the reason my Kickstarter was successful. I if I had tried building it from scratch, it would have taken a year you know, just to try to get up to speed and building word of mouth. But Joe had been cultivating this because of the restoration for two years and we had been putting videos online you know, so his own Facebook page had but 75,000 people and then the other back of the user pages had millions, right so once we decided to launch our Kickstarter he posted everywhere on all the Facebook pages for back feature. Check this out. It's official. And then when people clicked on our Kickstarter, there was Bob Gale sitting right next to me in my Kickstarter video. And Bob is essentially saying you can trust this guy, he's going to finish this project, you can trust your money with him. And that and that. Put a lot of people over the top because you know, fan docs are a dime a dozen. It's easy for anybody to do it. But to have the creator sitting there next to me endorsing me gave my huge Yeah, it gave me a lot of credibility. And then the other thing we did that was excellent is we had fantastic Kickstarter giveaways, like, like, tears, tears that nobody else had. And the most popular one was, we made small five by 7000 desktop display shadow boxes, with pieces that were taken out of the time machine that were too damaged to put back in. So we turn them into collectible display cases that were with a CFA signed by Bob Gale and Joe Walzer. So essentially, you could own legally a piece of the time machine for real.

Alex Ferrari 21:00
And what was the cost of that? Just curious, way too low.

Steve Concotelli 21:03
We priced them, we priced them at like 200 bucks, I would have thought that they sold out in like 15 minutes. And then we did a second round of them. Like I think I could have charged $400 for those suckers. I had no idea.

Alex Ferrari 21:15
No, you would have probably you could have easy, depending on what it is you could apart 500 or 1000 a pop and

Steve Concotelli 21:21
Yeah, all day. Yeah, that we could have been you know, in retrospect, hindsight is 2020. But we, you know, again, it wasn't about trying to, you know, rake them over the coals that was just to get those out and stuff and, and they were wildly popular. We had a really cool poster, I had some artwork that I'd taken over the finished car. But we had stuff that wasn't just like just the movie, it was real. Back to the Future, like official type stuff. And it just just blew the doors off. So it was, you know, and then at the end of the Kickstarter, I'm sitting there thinking, Oh, God, now I have to fulfill all this nightmare stuff, which that's, and I filled everything myself, right. Like I didn't have a fulfillment company, I boxed and shipped, you know, 600 individual items to our back guard backers across the world. That's an education in itself. Hmm. And believe me while you're sitting there boxing up, like, out of time license plates at two in the morning, you're thinking to yourself, man, I should, I should have just gone to work. I should have just gone to work.

Leading it's just and I know we all go through that every indie filmmaker has that same story about just like how much of a nightmare it is. And it's like a bootcamp Brotherhood in that regard.

Alex Ferrari 22:34
No, there's no question it is it is fairly brutal. And at your level, I could only imagine and again, you had such a responsibility, because you were representing Back to the Future. So that it's not like another little indie movie that no one ever heard of, like, You're, you're doing an official doc.

Steve Concotelli 22:50
And not just that, but I couldn't pull the plug like, you know, I wanted to quit the film about a dozen times over, you know, the years just because it was exhausting and too much work and just a drain. But you can't you know, because I am representing this giant franchise, and I have to represent the best of what it is. How long did it take you from start to finish? Oh, for a little over four years, which, at the time, I thought that was forever. And then I and then as I met other indie filmmakers, I realized that's on the short end of indie filmmaking.

Alex Ferrari 23:23
Taya, Doc Doc's can go for a while.

Steve Concotelli 23:25
Yeah, I've got friends who've been making Doc's for 789 years, and they're still not done. So I, for years felt like a long time. But um, you know, it was actually bought right on par with most. And considering how much I did by myself. That was, you know, I think that was a pretty decent schedule.

Alex Ferrari 23:43
And you do come from an editing and post production background. Now, you couldn't you wouldn't have been able to make this movie unless you were the editor.

Steve Concotelli 23:50
Yeah, I don't think so. I, I've been a professional, like, television editor in Los Angeles for about 12 years now. So, you know, I knew that I needed to edit it, not just for myself, but because I had over what, 120 hours of footage. And it would have been too hard for anybody else to get up to speed on where this stuff was, you were shooting it as well. Yeah, because I shot it. And so I knew kind of where stuff was I knew how the how the restoration progressed. And then I shot all the interviews. And then I went through and logged all the interviews, so I knew where all the sound bites were. And I know several other friends who are top notch professional editors, but it would have taken them weeks just to try to get up to speed to find anything. And then you know, after working 12 hours of their day job, the last thing they want to do is come home and try to cut my film, you know, and and I couldn't have afforded any of them even if they wanted to. So it just it fell on me.

Alex Ferrari 24:42
Now can you explain to the audience and this is something I preach about a lot about tapping into an existing fan base when you're making a project because it's so invaluable? I mean, you I know. Yes. And a lot of people like Oh, he's making something for Back to the Future. That's monsters fan base. I'm like yes. But the concept is still the same is if you went out to create a product that was going to be sold to a audience, and you knew what that audience wants, and you gave that audience what they want it. And it's that that concept can go from narrative to documentary. But can you explain the power of that?

Steve Concotelli 25:20
Well, I think it would be hard to make a documentary, if you didn't already have, identify your fan base and who you're trying to appeal to. I mean, you're right back to the future. It has a gigantic fan base. And not just that, but sci fi fans tend to be very tactically adapt. You know, they're they're online, they consume digital media, they like blu rays, over DVDs, they are digital download and streaming so that they're very active online. And that's definitely the Back to the Future fan base. And, you know, trying to tap into that is is essential. I don't know if I could have made the movie without it. But even then, even with the gigantic fan base that they have, it's still difficult because my film from the outside is it's a niche film. It's a film about a car, where the car and or even a restoration.

Alex Ferrari 26:07
Yeah, is arguably it's the car.

Steve Concotelli 26:09
Yeah. And you know, a lot of people you hear that you're like, Oh, it's a, you know, it's like an episode of monster garage where they're, they're wrenching on a car for an hour. It's just like, Well, no, you know, and to try to explain what it isn't like, Oh, is it? You know, is it a documentary about, you know, behind the scenes of the filmmaking? No, that's, that's, that's not what this is. This is about the history and restoration of this screen use Time Machine. And so you know, like it, you know, every even that cuts back on the potential audience within back the feature that you can apply to? And yeah, you want to make your audience as big as possible. And, you know, thankfully, they had a very big fan base, but trying to build it from scratch. I I don't know if I could have done it.

Alex Ferrari 26:50
Well, then also, I mean, you're right, because, you know, like, perfect example. I always use this example. The Vegan vegan chef movie. Yeah. You know, you. Yeah, exactly. It's like you're like these people are interested in cooking like, Well, no, it's it's cooking. And people are interested in cooking, but it's vegan cooking. And now with vegan cooking, there's raw vegan cooking, correct. There's vegetarian, there's paleo. There's all sorts of other sub genres of the larger cooking. So same thing goes with here, there's a Back to the Future fan. And then there are fans of like, of the DeLorean. and would like to see that so that it is big, but it's still a smaller sub subset of that.

Steve Concotelli 27:29
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And that's, you know, when you're making this film, you have no idea how big or how small that subset is going to be. And that's, that's one of the biggest risks of any filmmaking is when you take on a passion project, you know, you're you're in it to the end and, and it could fly and it could flop and you just kind of have to write it out. And whatever happens happens.

Alex Ferrari 27:49
Now when you when you finish the movie, so the movies done now, how did you mark thank goodness, thank God, it's over. It's over. I've gave I've given birth, I'm done. Yeah. Did you distribute the film yourself? Did you market the film yourself? Or did you have universal help you How did that whole process go?

Steve Concotelli 28:07
Universal, didn't help market the film itself, because, and this is, again, is the legality of a major studio. My I had licensed footage, but my film wasn't an official Universal Studios film, The featurette on the 30th anniversary, Blu Ray was but when it came time, and I made my feature length standalone version of the film, you know, they were hesitant to promote it, because oh, it's not one of our films, and blah, blah, blah. They did give me some shout outs on their Facebook page, which was great. But in terms of marketing, actually, a lot of that was once again, Joe Walzer was him, motivating and kind of, you know, gathering the troops on the Facebook pages and other social media platforms to get the word out to all the big Back to the Future. Facebook pages and user groups, and I did some discussion on the prop replica forum. You know, those guys, they love props.

Alex Ferrari 29:02
So that's, that's a whole other sub genre to like, yeah, price is the ultimate This is the ultimate prop.

Steve Concotelli 29:07
Yeah, but but in terms of distribution, I actually have a domestic distribution company for North America. And so I handed over the actual, you know, creation and distribution and getting on all the streaming services, they handled that, okay. And again, that's a whole other subject is, you know, distribution distributor versus going with an actual domestic distributor, let's, if you don't, I'm still walking through that for international.

Alex Ferrari 29:37
So let me let me ask you a question that and you can say, I don't want to talk about it, or you can answer it. Do you think that because if you would have come to me and I would have been consulting you on this project, and you would have come to me like Alex, I have this movie, it's it's about Back to the Future about the machine Time Machine. What do you think I should do? Should I try to self distribute this or should I go through a distributor for domestic We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And I would have sold you 110% that goes self distribution purely because you had such a fan base that would have turned up for Yes. Because for internationals different International, absolutely, but for self distribute for domestic, which is what I did, you know, and I had no nowhere near the fan base of Baghdad. And we have been fairly successful with it. I think you could have done gangbusters so I'm curious on why you chose that route? Because it was what year was it? When you finally released this?

Steve Concotelli 30:44
The feature came out last year 2016.

Alex Ferrari 30:46
So distribute was around self distribution is the thing. Yeah, all that thing. I looked into it. So what was the reasoning behind you choosing a traditional distributor versus a self distribution outlet? And also do you know, Mr. If you want to answer this, are you happy with your choice?

Steve Concotelli 31:02
Fair enough! Well, I won't mention my distributor by name. But you know, at the time of my thinking was this is that because of the the subject matter. It was, you know, car car based and it was kind of the way I produced it was kind of modular, I have a TV background. I was really hoping to also get it on television. And to and to do that the distributor I went with had a very solid reputation for indie Doc's high profile indie Doc's, I vetted them, because I've heard horror stories about, but yeah, terrible. So Believe me, I did my work. I vetted them against several people and in industry, people, I trusted to make sure that they had an actual reputation. And then, but I was wanted to try to get them on television rights, because I felt it was a great property for like, you know, the Back to the Future trilogy, screenings on TBS. Okay, here's an extra hour of awesome content that ties in Sure. And, and I didn't really have the method to do that myself. That was the next level up of distribution beyond me. Sure. And I needed help for that. And, and to be honest, I had done so much of this film by myself that I was ready to ask for some help. Yeah, like, you know, like, I didn't so much, I dropped the ball on so much because I was doing it by myself and details missed that I didn't want to screw up my distribution. So I was like, I want to hand it off to a group of professionals who know how to get the marketing out there the messaging who know the easiest way to get these produced for the cheapest way and and it was just, you know, it, it had everything I was looking for at the time. And so that's what I went with I mean, you know, now what I choose different Yeah, it's it's been about a wash I distributor, I have friends who have done distributor, I hear decent things. And I would certainly consider them next time around. But for this one, it just seemed like the best way to go for the situation I was in and then you're now doing an A you went through somebody else for international Actually, I just went around and around I had a company in LA that wanted to distribute internationally and then a my domestic distributors like great, you know, go sign up, it'll be awesome. And then they gave me their what they were looking for and what they wanted was out rageous expenses just outrageous as for

Alex Ferrari 33:11
Oh, you mean as far as like, you know how much it goes? There can and

Steve Concotelli 33:14
Yeah, yeah, like their their caps were just were like, more than I would ever make ever. And she's like, no, right. So now, you know, now I'm actually looking at you know, I was on the phone with the stripper just like a couple of weeks ago in terms of, do I want to do that or, or for international? Can I just put it on Vimeo, which I could do by myself. And I'm going around around with all that stuff right now.

Alex Ferrari 33:37
Still, right! Well, when we get off when we get off this interview, I'll talk to you a bit about that. So yeah. So can you did you tour at all with this film? Did you like go to conventions? Did you do anything like that?

Steve Concotelli 33:49
Yeah, I did. Actually, I went to a couple of the comic conventions where we screened the film and then I gave a couple of Q and A's. I went to San Jose Comic Con Philly Comic Con, I went to Salt Lake Comic Con a couple weeks ago. And then I actually I went to DeLorean DCs, which is the DeLorean convention that they have every two years, I went and spoke there and showed the film. So not like a full fledged tour. But but enough that I'm tired of flying all over talking about it. But yeah. And that was great. Like the convention stuff is, is fun, and especially when Back to the Future, had a large representation at all those conventions I went to, like, I went to the ones that Chris Lloyd was at that Michael J. Fox was at so there was already just a huge back of the future fan base there. And that's why I selected those.

Alex Ferrari 34:40
Now, did you sell anything there while you were there? Or I guess, okay,

Steve Concotelli 34:44
No, I whenever I went, I always had a table and I would sell some copies. And, you know, some days were more successful than others. You know, most of the time you sit there like, you know, the guy at the table with 20 copies of his movie he's trying to peddle you know, like I've been there

Alex Ferrari 34:59
A bit that night. It's Yeah, it's brutal.

Steve Concotelli 35:01
You know, you're that guy. But I always tried to at least hedge my bets, you know, so Terry and Oliver holler, they, they drive around the country, and they're, they're back to the time machine raising money for the Michael J. Fox foundation. And they're very well known, and they're at all the conventions. So if I was at a convention with them, I would try to get a table close to them, because there would be all the fans around the car, you know, and I tried to parlay as much as I could. But even then, you know, it's, it's still hard and, and breaking through and letting people know what my film was, was always the biggest hurdle. Just like, what what is this film? What is it about? You know, and that's, you know, I could I could list 1000 things that I did wrong on this film. And you know, and cutting through the clutter and having, you know, a clear title and, and letting fans clearly know what your film is about. It got a little muddy in there, and I'm even now I'm still trying to what is what's your movie about? I've never heard of it. What is it? Right, right.

Alex Ferrari 36:02
Now, did you? Did you get to meet? Meet Bob Zemeckis at all? I don't remember he was in the dock or not.

Steve Concotelli 36:08
No, no. Bob Zemeckis was not in the dock. I met Bob, very briefly once a few months ago and on it back to the future, an unrelated thing. But the only people I've met, I know Bob Gale, very well. I met Claudia wells, who was Jennifer Parker. I know her pretty well. Okay. I met Chris Lloyd. I met him a few times Tom Wilson. Never met Michael J. Fox, though because he was he was never at the same conventions that I was at. But, you know, like, it's if there's ever a Back to the Future thing in Los Angeles, and they're all there. I'm sure I will be there and get a chance to meet them. No, I mean, it's, it's it's cool. But again, like, you're in it for so long. After a while you're like, yeah, it's cool. But I'm okay. Sitting this one out. No, no,

Alex Ferrari 36:51
I did. Yeah. After you're on the same project for years and years and years. Because for you, it's not just a year that the movies been out. You've been on this? half a decade. Yeah.

Steve Concotelli 37:01
Yeah. Easy. Yeah. And it's just, and even now, you know, we're still promoting it and and back, the future still continues to be popular. And they're always talking about, you know, putting up fan events in the upcoming years. You know, they did a huge 30th back to the feature fan event in 2015. I don't know if you were a part of that at all, or if you went to it. Not at all. It was put on by Joe Walzer like the same guy who did the restoration. Of course, he's the one who put on this massive like five day back to the teacher, superfan event. And so like, you know, we were out at the pointy Hills Mall where they had a big like, they had a big twin pines mall sign built and put in the same place. And they had Doc's truck and you get pictures in front of it. I mean, it was it was like fan insanity. That's like a man like

Alex Ferrari 37:48
That's like mecca for back oh was like going like that it's going to that mall? Yeah, it's still there.

Steve Concotelli 37:54
Oh, yeah, the mall still there. And not only that, but they they screened the movie in the mall, like in the parking lot there. And then, of course, when they have the scene, you know what the terrorists they did, they reenacted it live in sync. So Marty drives the dorians driving around the crowd, and the VW is chasing around and there's 1000 fans just screaming their heads off. It's just like, like, this is just insanity. You know, like, it's so surreal. You can't even believe it's actually happening.

Alex Ferrari 38:20
That's that that must be insane.

Steve Concotelli 38:22
Yeah, Yeah,it was. It was mind blowing. And yeah, like 10 year old me like growing up in the Midwest and seeing Back to the Future on the screen. Like, if he saw that he'd be like, Well done, old Steve. Well done. Like that. That was a dream come true. Now, did you?

Alex Ferrari 38:37
Did you talk to Bob a lot. And you've been involved with Bob a lot? Did you discover any inside stories about the making of Back to the Future you could share?

Steve Concotelli 38:45
You know, oddly enough? No, I, I really, I really didn't. And actually, at the same time casting Gaines put out a book, which was like, we don't need roads. I think it was called the Back to the Future history, which had all those stories. So I just read his book. Oh, oh, these are the stories I didn't know. But but with Bob, you know, I honestly I tread pretty lightly. I when I when I'm around him. I try to be very cautious of his time. And I try to be very respectful because he's, he's still working. He's still a very busy guy, you know, he's got 1000 things to do. And, you know, I try to be cautious and I try not to, I try not to do the fan stuff. You know him. You know what I mean by that, like,

Alex Ferrari 39:28
I've been around like celebrity fans. And imagine when you're working with a person you idolize, or you're working with someone, you have a tremendous amount of respect, and you just want to kind of geek out to Yeah, it's tough. And trust me, I've been in I've been in a room with huge celebrities and movies that I want to that I grew up with, and I just want to go take a picture of you. Can you sign this for me? Like but you can't because you're professional?

Steve Concotelli 39:55
Yeah, you know, and I crossed over from that fandom into professional You know, back to feature filmmaker Domine. And you know, you don't want to, he gets the fan stuff all the time at the conventions. And that's great. And he loves it, but when I'm around him, I want to be the professional and, and you know, every time I would contact him because I needed help with something, you know, Shabaab, what do I do? You know, universal is not calling back. What should I do about this? And but, you know, it's mostly like, I'm in trouble, Bob, what am I gonna do?

Alex Ferrari 40:25
Right, as opposed to? So Bob, how was it in the first day of shooting?

Steve Concotelli 40:28
Yeah, no, I like every now and then he'd be telling those stories while people were in the room and I would listen, but I, I never really, really went down that road. You know, one thing I did say to him though, is when I was in production on and I was pretty far along I said, you know, Bob, making this film is the hardest thing I've ever done. I had no idea just how insanely hard it would be and he shakes his hand he goes yeah, you know, like nobody nobody understands how hard it is to produce a film and and you know, Back to the Future was a terribly difficult film to produce especially with Eric Stoltz Nadir reshoot a bunch of it. Like, I put myself in his shoes being what, you know, like a 32 year old producer, with this giant film and millions of dollars bleeding out and like, you're never gonna make another movie again. If this bombs, like the pressure, he must have been under you know, I think Bob's the bowels as they call it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I kind of think about that and empathize about that, because, you know, my film is is not even on the same level, but it's still stressful and hard. And, and I think that's why Bob and I kind of got along because he he understands that what being a producer isn't the sacrifice and the troubleshooting and just the misery that that's involved with it because he's done it

Alex Ferrari 41:36
Is the misery It really is. And for people who don't know they're listening. If you watch Back to the Future, that Michael J Fox was not the original Marty McFly. It was Eric stolte. And they'd shot what like, a third of it, I think third of the movie with Eric Stoltz. And you see some of that in the behind the scenes on the blu ray. And you just you that the call had to be made that someone that Robert Zemeckis had to go to Spielberg and go, look, yeah, we got to recast and like, yeah. Oh, can you imagine? No,

Steve Concotelli 42:11
I can't imagine that competition at all. It's just like, you know, the heartache or even like when you're when they're shooting with Eric Stoltz, you know, great actor, but just imagine looking at your dailies just going to yourself, JJ. This movie's gonna be bad. This is like he's just he's great. But he's not good for this. And just just imagine that that that sinking feeling, you know, of like, are we ever going to work in this town again, I I have nothing but tremendous empathy for them as producers now and you know, all of us who have been indie producers, because it's so it's such a hard damn job that you can't even begin to describe how hard it is.

Alex Ferrari 42:46
Yeah, we were in we're indie guys. So it's a bit difference. We do have pressures, but I cannot imagine the pressures of millions of dollars. Yeah, totally. It just on top of you in a studio and, and a concept like Back to the Future, which was, it was a pretty out there concept. Yeah, it was with a question.

Steve Concotelli 43:06
Yeah. But again, what's what's great about Bob is he again, he's very producer, he were, you know, I'm like, Bob, I'm making this film. And his opinion is kind of like, you know what, go for it. Give it a shot, give it a try. And that's such a producer thing to say, No, just throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. You know, don't edit yourself. Don't stop yourself from trying it. Just go and try it and see what happens. Now,

Alex Ferrari 43:27
Why do you think back to the future is such a classic and is touched so many people?

Steve Concotelli 43:34
So you're you're getting into fandom now? I told you I was gonna get I know, I know. But it's, I think everybody listening who's a fan knows at all knows the answer to that already. And it's just because it's, it's a timeless story. It's, it's a sci fi movie. It's a romance. It's an action movie. You know, it's an it's all these different movies combined into one and every, every line of the script is perfect, and it's tight. And it just propels the story forward every single second, you know, not not a second wasted on screen. And, and you know, even when I saw it, I was too young to understand the going back and visiting your parents stuff like that time machine, man, just like still to this day when I see those scenes, like my heart still skips a beat. And I've sat in that car hundreds of times. And like I still like, get you know, I feel my pulse race just because of how cool it is. And my wife teases me. And just like how can you even sit and watch this movie? After all the times? You've seen it making your film I like because it still excites me. It is it is it for me. It's I remember I remember going to see it in 1985 Yeah, me too. I

Alex Ferrari 44:43
Remember going to the theater, seeing it and my mind being absolutely blown. You know, that was that there was that wonderful, wonderful time in the 80s that so many great movies were made like 80 from at Walmart. It's just so many great movies. 85 summer of 85 was amazing. memory

Steve Concotelli 45:00
Or Yeah, you're talking my language now like I was I was 10 when back the video came out so I was just a little on the young side, but I was still in that sweet spot for all those awesome, awesome 80s movies I mean, between Ghostbusters theaters gram backs future Gremlins and that Goonies but here's another one that it's one of my Joe Walzer. It's one of our favorites. And nobody ever talks about an explorer. So it's amazing. I love him waters, like so many people don't know, explorers at all. And yet, that's one of my favorite quintessential 80s teenager. You know, films. I

Alex Ferrari 45:34
Love everything about them. I would also throw flight of the Navigator in there. Yeah. And then I would also throw in Monster Squad. Yeah, Monster Squad. Absolutely. Toss those guys into that because those are also lesser known. Yeah, no, because The Goonies took you know, took over. But now we're geeking out in the 80s movies. And we could I could talk about 80s a whole episode on

Steve Concotelli 45:56
What's funny is actually in a way Goonies kind of kicked off my whole out of time movie in a way I owe it to Goonies. Why? And, and I'll tell that story real quick. In 2010, before I knew anybody, like actually was before that, but I, I had put together a parody trailer, you know, that when the mashups were really popular? Well, I did a mashup I did a mash up of Goonies of The Goonies meets Pirates of the Caribbean, okay. And I'm a professional editor. So what I did was I took both films, professionally, digitize them, and cut together like a professional trailer, not you know, not what and it looked, it looked real. And it was called Goonies of the Caribbean. And when you watch the trailer, it has a plot, like The Goonies discover, you know, the ship, and then the pirates come out. And it was this whole thing, and it was really well done. And it was popular online. And in fact, I got an email from dick Donner one day telling me how much he liked my trailer. And he's just like, and remember, Goonies never say die. And I'm just like, Dick Donner. Just make me a Guney. I'm like, I call on it. I'm on it. Like, yeah, he did. But that story aside, one day, I get an email from a guy who's just like, hey, you'd like Goonies and like, Yeah, because check this out. And he sent me a photo of Corey Feldman is an adult sitting in a time machine. And I said, Who are you? And where is that? He goes, I'm My name is Joe Walter. It's my time machine. And I'm like, I've got to meet you. And then like, two days later, I was at his condo checking out his time machine, and we've been friends ever since. And then

Alex Ferrari 47:25
I've heard that before I was checking out Scott. Okay.

Steve Concotelli 47:28
Yeah. And Joe ended up he is the head of the restoration. But that's how I met is because Joe saw my Goonies pirates trailer online and emailed me about it. Tell me how much he liked it. And that started this whole weird adventure. So The Goonies Goonies are at the core of everything. You got

Alex Ferrari 47:43
an email from dick Donner?

Steve Concotelli 47:45
It did it was, it was amazing. I couldn't believe it. Like, you know, like, oh, you're always afraid that they're gonna say, Thank you take that down. Right now. We will sue you, you know, like, something like that. But he, he said, it just tickled his fancy, and he really liked it. So I'm just like, boy, I'm framing that one. That's awesome. Yeah. I see smile thinking about that one.

Alex Ferrari 48:05
So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Steve Concotelli 48:14
Boy, I don't know. Because I feel like I'm still trying to break into the business to be honest. Like I don't like you should go ask a successful multimillionaire film producer that question because if I knew the answer, I'd be doing it. You know,

Alex Ferrari 48:25
But you've been doing it. You've been in the business for 10,15 years now. Yeah. You're a little, you're a little ahead of the film students. So

Steve Concotelli 48:33
Yeah, advice for that? I do have an answer. If, if there's one field that you want to do, whether it's writing for scripted TV writing features you're in or whatever you want to do, in college intern at the company you want to intern at in college, if you that will set you on the right foot for everything else that follows. So if you get an internship with, you know, like, say, NBC Universal or on one of your favorite TV shows, as an intern, you get to sit in the writers room, you get to meet the people, you get to know how things work, and then they'll be more inclined to hire you as a PA. And once you're a PA, they'll be more inclined to hire you because you know, all the ropes are ready. If you get you can get into the place. You want to work early as an intern. Do it and that will set you on the right path.

Alex Ferrari 49:20
That's a great advice. That's exactly what I did in college. I worked at Universal in Florida. Oh, there you go. Yes, I was working in the backlog all through all throughout my I actually skipped school to work for free. It was

Steve Concotelli 49:31
Oh, that was awesome. Yeah, I interned out here for a few companies. So I did it, but they were they were feature companies and I just didn't end up doing feature. So but yeah, great experience and that that will help more than anything else.

Alex Ferrari 49:44
Now, can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Steve Concotelli 49:50
I wasn't prepared for these questions.

Alex Ferrari 49:51
I know you weren't. You have anything? On top of your head?

Steve Concotelli 49:58
No I don't you know, I will give a shout out I one book that that pops to mind that I really, really enjoyed is Rebel Without a crew. Yeah, of course, Robert. But um, yeah, I mean, that's just that's such a filmmaker go to, because any any book that details, the horrible struggles of any other filmmaker I want to read. Like, I want to know that every other filmmaker is having just as much of a miserable time as I did you know when that's comforting. I don't say that to be mean, I say that in terms of comfort, because because making films is hard. And it's an even successful people struggle with it. And I like knowing that

Alex Ferrari 50:37
You don't want to hear from somebody, you know, I had a great time. It was easy.

Steve Concotelli 50:41
No, no. Because odds are they're lying, or they just had some kind of CO EP credit where they just show up once a week and walked around the set and home like, No, you weren't involved. You didn't do it? No, now it's just like, yeah, like, I want to know, the real stories. And again, in making this film, one of the great things is that at the conventions, I get to meet a lot of the other indie filmmakers. And we all have the same stories about how hard it is, and the studios and this and that, and it's just, and you realize that when things go wrong, it's not that it's not that you're doing things wrong. It's simply part of the process. Like that's making if you're, if things aren't going wrong, you're not making a film, right.

Alex Ferrari 51:20
Got some great tag. That's a great quote, sir.

Steve Concotelli 51:23
Feel free to use it

Alex Ferrari 51:24
That's a great quote. Now, What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Steve Concotelli 51:32
In this film, it's Don't try to do everything yourself? Okay? battle, that alone was the biggest mistake. And the biggest hurdle that I kind of essentially threw up in front of myself, was I took I took on way too much of this project by myself. And I, like I wrote the film, I produced it, I shot it, I directed it, and I cut it. And I did all the graphics, I ran the Kickstarter, I designed the web page, I designed the DVD sleeve, like I cut the trailers, I cut all the bonus features, like I literally and I say that not as a source of pride, but more of a source of embarrassment, that, that I didn't bring in more people, but you know, at the time, this stuff takes a lot of time, and people people want to be paid. And I didn't have the money to pay people and, and when you and then if they do it on their own time, it would have taken another three years to get done. Because they you know, cut for 20 minutes here an hour here. And I was on a I was on a deadline. So I I ended up doing way too much by myself and details were constantly kind of falling through the cracks, or falling through the cracks and dropping and, and it was just, you know, the nature of trying to do too much as an individual and I yeah, having a team of like two or three people who are all equally dedicated, who will have an equal share in it, that will all support each other and not have anybody bail i think is critical. And makes things a lot easier because you can hand stuff off if you need to.

Alex Ferrari 52:59
Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Steve Concotelli 53:02
Ah, let's see Max, if I would. Well, actually, I would say on the top of the list I put It's a Wonderful Life, okay, which which is not unlike Back to the Future you know, it's it's seeing what happens life without you, you know, when a different path and there's a little bit of time travel and mystery in there. So I would say that and then back to the future. Definitely number two. I would put Ghostbusters at number three, I would put you know, the Star Wars you know, the original trilogy somewhere, you know, for Raiders five, and then you just start getting into all the other you know, awesome 80s movies. It's simply a list of babies and I totally admit it you know, it's Yeah, again, I put explorers up there you know, even though the alien third act is really weird and Goofy and a little a little clownish but I still I still love it. Yeah, I you can definitely tell that I grew up completely within the 80s and that's you know, they're they're my favorite films and

Alex Ferrari 53:59
So that's why you must love Stranger Things.

Steve Concotelli 54:01
You know what I do? I haven't finished second season don't spoil it but yeah, I'm I'm savoring this one. I'm savoring it going slow. Yeah, I love it's funny because when I watch Stranger Things, I think to myself, none of us made proton packs that look that good in the 80s since like, that's my eyes like we get cardboard boxes. None of ours look that good.

Alex Ferrari 54:23
I actually I was I dressed up i think i think it was the six I think it was at five actually. I think it was 85 I dressed up and we did a whole show on my school and I was one of the Ghostbusters and yeah, I did not look that good.

Steve Concotelli 54:37
No, but it's so funny because all of my friends like obviously since I made a movie about the restoration of the time machine. I have come to know a lot of very very good fan prop makers including all the Ghostbuster guys all the Back to the Future guys all the aliens guys. And so like you know their their proton packs and stuff now, our screen accurate and like they have the full sighs Actos like in their yard like that's how big my fans my friends are. But, but like, yeah seeing like all of us have pictures of us in the 80s dressed just like those kids like oh my god I almost have that photo being my friends dress

Alex Ferrari 55:14
Like Ghostbusters the 80s That's insane. And that is the genius of the duffer brothers.

Steve Concotelli 55:18
Yeah, that's Oh my god. Yeah, they they got everything right on that one, you know, but again, I would love to know the story of how hard it was them to try to get the series made anywhere else. Those are the great stories of you know how back to the teacher was rejected by everybody how jaws almost didn't get made because they went you know, over budget over time. The stories behind the your favorite films of how they were disasters are the stories I love the most.

Alex Ferrari 55:43
Absolutely. Now, where can where can people find you and find information about you your work, and also the movie.

Steve Concotelli 55:49
The movie, they can go to my website, it's outatimemovie.com and out of time is spelled like the license plate. It's outatimemovie.com The movie is currently available on iTunes, Hulu, Vimeo, and it's also available on blu ray and DVD. And we ship worldwide. And it's all All the links are available through the website. And if they want to email me if they want to criticize my film, you know, tell me that my filmmaking isn't that hard and that I'm wrong or that explores isn't awesome. They can contact me through the website because as I said before, I run the website because I literally do everything related to the film. It comes straight to me. It's not some big team of people, although I wish it were.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
Steven, thank you so much for taking the time out to do this man. It's been an absolute pleasure. geeking out with you and also talking, talking shop with you, man.

Steve Concotelli 56:42
Absolutely. And hey, I just want to say keep up the good work. I love the podcasts. I love hearing other indie filmmakers stories. And thank you for doing this. We appreciate it.

Alex Ferrari 56:51
Oh, brother. Thank you, man. I appreciate that.

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BPS 419: Going Undercover and Directing for VICE with Natalia Leite

May 15, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Today’s guest is writer/director Natalia Leite. This director is one of the bravest filmmakers I’ve ever met. Her work on the VICE documentary ‘Life as a Truck-Stop Stripper was breathtaking. Not only did she direct the piece but one of the subjects in the film as well. Take a look below at her amazing work.

Everyone knows what charming places strip clubs can be, but perhaps there is no club so charming as one in Moriarty, New Mexico—a truck stop with taxidermy and the bras of former employees on the walls, a few poles, a shitload of black light, and plenty of titties. Never mind that The Ultimate Strip Club List website describes it as the place “where strippers go to die.” Natalia Leite and Alexandra Roxo go Gonzo as they pose as strippers and experience something that can be best described as a Marina Abramovic performance crossed with a bizarro episode of Wife Swap directed by David Lynch’s daughters, set in the type of place where a one-eyed guy who shot himself in the head dispenses meditation advice to two naked women.

Natalia Leiteis a Brazilian writer/director. Her work has been described as having “a bracing, assertive style” (Variety), “emotional intelligence and sensitivity” (LA Times), and as “cementing the reign over highly stylized, sexually progressive dramas” (Slant).

Her feature film “M.F.A.”, a psychological thriller centered around rape crimes in a university, premiered at SXSW 2017 and was nominated for a Grand Jury Prize. The film stars Francesca Eastwood and was released in theaters October 2017. Her feature film debut, “Bare,” premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2015, starring Dianna Agron.

The film was released by IFC Films and Paramount Pictures. Natalia has created original content for Vice Media, most notably the provocative Vice show “Every Woman” which has garnered over 11 million views. She co-created and starred in the series “Be Here Nowish,” and has directed and shot documentaries internationally.

Natalia is a contributing writer for Talk House and has been a featured speaker for NY Women In Film & Television, Apple Store Talks, IFP Filmmaker Conference, and numerous Universities. She also directs branded content for Vans, The North Face, Nasty Gal, and other companies. She recently signed with bicoastal production company Humble, her first commercial representation, and directs branded content for Vans, The North Face, and other companies.

Enjoy my conversation with Natalia Leite.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:39
I'd like to welcome to the show, Natalia Leite. Thank you so, so much for being on the show.

Natalia Leite 3:06
Thank you, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 3:08
I thank you so much. No, it's it's i was i was shown your work and introduced to you work recently. And I have to say I'm fairly impressed.

Natalia Leite 3:19
Thank you. Yeah, there's a wide range of thing that I've been doing here.

Alex Ferrari 3:23
So before we get into it, how did you actually get started in the business?

Natalia Leite 3:27
So I actually came from a visual arts background, I went to art school, I didn't have proper film education. I thought I wanted to be making visual art and then quickly realized that that maybe wasn't the medium for me. And I started getting into film just just out of my own curiosity and you know, eventually assisting other directors. One thing led to the next started writing my own scripts and just kind of like DIY being scrappy doing it myself and realize that I loved telling stories in this medium. And what was what so you basic that was the the genesis of you wanting to be a director as you just kind of fell into it. Like I really like this, right? Yeah, I fell into it and discovered that I really liked it. Honestly, it wasn't really in my radar. I grew up in Brazil, and I just, I don't know, it just wasn't like presentable a career path that was like presented to me ever that I really thought this could be an option, you know, right. But I knew I wanted to do something creative. And I knew I wanted to tell stories. It was just like taking another form back then. And I it all like one thing led to the next like I was assisting a lot of other directors and producers for a while and I started writing my own work and the the first thing that sort of started to put my work out there was be here now which was wish be here now wish which was a web show that I, you know, started directed row produced did the sound sometimes, like just lab services. Got it? Yeah, craft services did everything with a handful of friends. And that, you know, started to kind of putting the wheels in motion in terms of me doing this as a career,

Alex Ferrari 5:20
Which was fun, because I actually saw a little bit of that show, and it actually looks really good. Like it actually has great production value for being such a scrappy little show. So congratulations on that.

Natalia Leite 5:33
I'll credit that to Del Mar, who was our dp dollarway. For Madsen. She's shooting high maintenance now on HBO, and she is just the queen of just like, let's figure it out and still make it look gorgeous. So yeah, she's really lucky to have her as a friend and DP on that.

Alex Ferrari 5:50
You definitely need people like that on on your crew as a director, yes. Let's figure it out. And like, let's still make it look gorgeous. That's always like,

Natalia Leite 6:00
We're like pulling in, you know, like, whatever we could find just like bringing in lamps and just, you know, attaching things like just trying to be creative of how we're going to get a good image and not make it look super low quality. So she's she's really creative in that way.

Alex Ferrari 6:15
So let me ask you, how did you get that first project got that series up off the ground? I mean, obviously, you need some money. Where did you find money? How did you put this whole thing? How did you put that show together?

Natalia Leite 6:27
Yeah, so the show, we, you know, it really started off as, okay, let's do this on weekends with friends, like I just want to get, I just want to get work out there in the world, right. And then, so everyone was working for free, but then obviously, like, they came points when, okay, we really do need money, we can't just like keep this going for, for nothing. And we ended up doing a Kickstarter, we raised 20,000 on that Kickstarter, which was like, a lot of work. It's like not a lot of money at all for for making a series, you know, that ended up being like an hour and a bit long. But we really stretched it out and made those 20k on Kickstarter and, and through that met like other investors, it was actually a pretty successful campaign for us, because we just met a lot of people that then ended up financing other projects.

Alex Ferrari 7:21
And we're in where's it being shown now.

Natalia Leite 7:25
So be here now, which is still on, we ended up selling the first season to a company called aura. So they have it on their site. And then the second season, we had it with full screen, which is full screen no longer exists. So now it's just up on our Vimeo and we're trying to figure out if we can just like throw it up on YouTube because for us at this point, it's just about you know, why do people watch it? I mean, it's it's, you know, it's older, it's old now. I consider it for

Alex Ferrari 7:54
Yes and ancient, like two three years old. It's like three years old My God then it's like the 80s but I want people to still watch it you know? Alright aged a bit since I was Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, you look haggard lately. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's my you see, you can go back your youth. My youth is fading away in front of you. Yes. Those three years really killed is now what is it certainly ask you. So what is your process when you're creating or selecting a project?

Natalia Leite 8:32
My process so I need to gravitate towards things that I feel a personal connection to, that I feel really passionate about. Because, as you know, it just, you're going to work on this thing for so long. Sometimes you don't even know how long and you got to just like, love it. And I feel like for me, I need to feel it's an instinctual thing. Like I need to feel like there's like a cord from my heart to whatever the script or concept is. That's like pulling me towards it. And there's been a lot of times, you know, now I'm reading other people's scripts, I'm deciding like, what to do next, writing my own stuff as well. But for me, it's always just like, I have to just check in intuitively to Is there a really strong pool like do I feel called to absolutely have to do this? You know, otherwise? I, I might love a story and be like, Oh, this is great, but I'm not feeling so passionate about it's probably not for me like I shouldn't be the one to do it. You know, and I think it's really good to discern that

Alex Ferrari 9:30
Well tell me a little bit about your work with Vice and how that came about. Especially that amazing documentary every woman life as a truck, truck stop stripper, which is when I saw that I was like a half to have her on the show. I need to hear all about this.

Natalia Leite 9:47
Yeah. So I had been writing on my own a script for my first features called bear. And a big part of the script took place in a strip club, but I didn't want but it's sort of like a strip club. In a small town, and I was looking for something that was like, you know, just off the off the highway ideally, right? Like I didn't want like a big nightclub a strip club in

Alex Ferrari 10:10
In the city. Right?

Natalia Leite 10:11
Right. And I had friends at the time, I didn't know where I was going to shoot. But I had friends who were living in Albuquerque, and I went there on like a month, you know, hiatus while I was writing the script to go live in Albuquerque, and ended up like touring all the strip clubs in the area. As I was like doing research and ended up finding out about this club, that is about 45 minutes away from Albuquerque, in the middle of nowhere, like you're driving on highway 40, nothing, nothing, nothing, you pass a Walmart, then there's nothing, nothing, nothing. And then there's like the signs there's like topless. And then there is like club 203. And it just cater to truckers. So the truckers passing by, they can tune into a CB radio, and they'll pick up the signal. And it'll be someone at the club being like, tonight on stages candy, and you know, whatever they say. And they'll like turn off into the side of the road. And I found out about this place. I went there alone for the first time. And I was just like, what is this?

Alex Ferrari 11:13
Sounds? It sounds like it sounds insane. Yeah, it was just like, it was like straight out of a David Lynch movie. And it's expecting people to start talking backwards. And there'll be a little person just walking by.

Natalia Leite 11:27
I was like, wow, this is really fascinating. And it was just, you know, that I'm Ryan, who's the guy who owns it, it was like very much a no rules type of place. And that there was like in terms of the dancing like you could do whatever you want. They had this rocking horse, they would pull on stage sometimes. And there was like, you know, just like mom and dad daughter dance, like it was like, yeah, there was like this survey stuff going on to this. Like, I don't know about this.

Alex Ferrari 11:55
That's just Oh, okay.

Natalia Leite 11:58
A lot of stuff that didn't end up in the piece. But anyway, so I was like, wow, this place. Aside from I wanted to put it in my feature film as a location. It deserves a piece on its own right. So I put I pitch to vice. Well, I went there, you know, I had gone there alone filmed a little bit of just filmed on my own a little bit to show a sample of like, what this really is, and then went back and then went to Vice with my friend Alexandra, who I was working with at the time to pitch as like a standalone piece of advice. This was like Eddie Moretti, who was the the, you know, creative there. He was like, Ah, you know, we get pitched like stripper concepts all the time. Like we're not interested in I was like, No, no, no, what universe sound like, I want to go and work there. He's like, Oh, okay. Like you're that's that sounds crazy.

Alex Ferrari 12:49
It sounds

Natalia Leite 12:51
Right. Yeah. And you went and worked and lived there for about 10 days

Alex Ferrari 12:56
So before we continue that story. How did you get to Vice? Because I know a lot of filmmakers would love to have that conversation with somebody advice. How do you how do you approach a company like that?

Natalia Leite 13:05
Yeah, so Okay. I went to a panel where Eddie Moretti was speaking, it was a Tribeca Film Festival organised panel. And at the end of the panel, I cornered him

To say, you accosted him? Got it? I did. So did like 30 other people, right, right, as you do at panels,

As I as you do at panels, and I was like, I have something that you're gonna be really interested in seeing? And he's like, yeah, okay, great. Reach out, and just gave me his assistance, email, you know, and I reached out and I sent him a link to a piece that I had shot. In Cuba. This was like, before every woman that was very, like, I had, you know, edited, like really fast, very, like, by style, and I just sent him the link and I didn't say much else. And he called me like, right away, was like, get come in come in tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just sometimes that stuff works, you know, but you've got to be, like, smart about how you're approaching it. Like, you've people, these people don't have time, right? So it's like, hey, like, what's gonna grab their attention? And what, what do I have that they want? Right? And that was it. Like, I just met him at a panel, there was no, you know, from there, like, it opened up the scope. And then we did every woman and then he called me back to do you know, direct other things and, but that stuff is possible, like the just cold calling, sometimes. Well,

Alex Ferrari 14:34
It does. And I'm actually I'm quite jealous because I am actually Cuban. And I've never been to Cuba yet. So when I saw that piece that you did, I was like, oh, that would have been amazing.

Natalia Leite 14:43
Yeah, he was really special place. I felt really lucky to be there. And at that time, especially and film it.

Alex Ferrari 14:50
So Alright, so So now you're back at Club was a club tool to about two or three because I was just the highway exit, right? So your club 203 and You're there for 10 days.

Natalia Leite 15:01
I'm there for 10 days. And that was me, Alexandra, who, who came in was working with me at the time. And vice sent us with one producer. This was prior to Vice land. So it was a little bit like still, you know, no rules. Like, I mean, we were putting ourselves in dangerous situations like I would fly today. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 15:23
You think I saw? I saw it? Are you? Are you kidding me?

Natalia Leite 15:26
Yeah. really dangerous. And I don't know that I would do it today. Because now I know a little more.

Alex Ferrari 15:31
Obviously, you're much older, obviously.

Natalia Leite 15:34
I have a lot of gray hair. Interview isn't a video? No, I see what I look like.

Alex Ferrari 15:41
Exactly, exactly. No, I mean, I mean, when I saw it, I was like, This can't be I can't believe that these girls did this. Like this is so and the guys you met were? I mean,

Natalia Leite 15:54
It was a intense Yeah, I think what I realized too, but you know, the whole idea about it was I wanted to go in there to try to debunk what are the stereotypes of the stripper and like why women decide to do this, and the stereotypes of the truckers that go into these clubs, right. And I really feel like, it sort of opened my mind to what's possible, and our what kind of, you know, what the, our like own limitations are and who those people are. And, you know, there's like one woman who we interviewed Daisy, who was talking about how she feels like, it's her calling, it's, she loves doing the work, because she feels like she's a therapist to these men. And that's sort of like, Oh, we we never stopped to think about that, you know, maybe. Yeah, like the that's a version of it. And also some of the guys all across the board, but people just wanted someone to talk to and a connection. And I think it was like a less about being naked and more about them feeling like someone was caring, caring for them and wanting to listen to their stories, you know, of course, that's just there's also then like this, the creepy guy who tries to like, grab you. And

Alex Ferrari 17:05
There's these streams, there's the extremes of both ends.

Natalia Leite 17:08
Right, exactly. But it's not all bad, you know. And we definitely saw that and some of the stories from the men were really intense. And it was hard to listen to

Alex Ferrari 17:17
Let me ask you a question when you were in that when you are in that moment, how, I mean, psychologically? How was it for you? Because I mean, I'm watching this, and I'm going, I'm just thinking to myself, this is your young lady who's put herself in this situation with her friend, for God knows what reason. And and I'm thinking how, what's the psychology What's going on? Because this is not a one one night thing you were there for, for 10 days. This was a day in day out. It's not like, I'm going to try this for one night, and I can go back home, you came back and again and again. And like how did that were on you? Not only as the subject of of it, but also, I mean, you were directing that as well. Correct? Yeah. So how did you do that?

Natalia Leite 18:05
I don't know. I think a lot of sometimes I look back and I think about my best work is stuff that I'm terrified to do, or they're terrified to talk about. And it's almost like, I just keep that I just keep the ball rolling. And then you know, and then eventually it hits a moment when there's no turning back. Right? And you're like, Ah, this is happening, like this is now out in the world. And I feel like this project was exactly that. Like, I was terrified to be there. I mean, it was also having fun with it. But it was just like, really intense, emotionally draining and physically draining. And I was terrified of like putting this out in the world, you know? So

Alex Ferrari 18:45
Because you're, you're exposing yourself and not in that way. But you're exposing your your basically your soft underbelly to the entire world.

Natalia Leite 18:52
Yeah, exactly. So it was just a lot of exposure. But you know, eventually you just hit a deadline. And you're like, you just press send and that's it. And then it's out. It's like has a mind of its own and it's going to be whatever it needs to be. But I think it was just Yeah, like every day was a bit of a challenge. But you just kind of keep going because that's there's no way there's no other way around it. You know, push yourself to keep going.

Alex Ferrari 19:15
No, you are it from from what I see in your work. You are extremely raw and vulnerable. Did that? Is that something that comes naturally to you? Or do you have to work at it to be able to kind of expose yourself as an artist?

Natalia Leite 19:28
Yeah, no, I think it comes naturally to me. I think I'm just naturally have a can tap into that sensitivity and being very empathetic. And you know, I do end up just feeling things intensely. And then sometimes I wonder if that's a hindrance, but more so now I feel like that's an advantage that I'm able to, you know, when I'm connecting with actors just like feel what they're feeling deeply and just look at performance and scenes and just be really connected on it. emotional level, I think it's actually really important for my work.

Alex Ferrari 20:03
And I and you agree that that's probably some of your best work is, the more scary it is, the more extreme, it might be more vulnerable and might be, is where you find that your work really shines.

Natalia Leite 20:15
Yeah, I do. And because that's what I want to be, you know, pushing the conversation forward, I want to be just doing stuff that is making us think about things differently and making us feel more connected. And that sometimes goes in and you know, deals deal with things that we're not talking about. So like, for instance, and even be here now, I wish there was I wanted to do a storyline about a guy who was HIV positive. And how do you deal with that in the dating world? Right. So like, there's just a little piece of it in the scene in the series, but it's like, why are we not talking about this? Right? Like, I have a cousin who's HIV positive. And, and the stories are interesting to me. And there's just not enough of these conversations out there. So but it's always scary, because you're like, Oh, this is kind of going into dangerous territory that is it gonna offend someone like, right, like, you just don't know. And, um, I always try to push myself to, to have those conversations, at least open it up,

Alex Ferrari 21:21
I find that, you know, by doing the kind of work that I do, and also just being a filmmaker myself that it's it's extremely difficult to be raw and vulnerable with your work. And I find that so many filmmakers hide behind falsehoods or create these walls that you can smell on their work. You can just smell it like, Oh, they didn't go all the way. Oh, they just they pull back at the last moment. And it's only the ones that go all the way that you go. Oh, there it is. And you see that in performances, you see that in directors, you see that and writers. So that's why I find your work so interesting. Because you are still early on in your career. I know you're ancient, but you're still you're still early on in your career. And I'm really curious to see the kind of work that you'll do in 10 years. Because you only by the way, being someone who's older than you. You only get braver, I feel as you get older because you start giving less of a shit.

Natalia Leite 22:19
Yeah, you know, it's, it's good to remember that. Thank you. I always like yeah, I always feel like I have to push myself. And it's always scary. But I do like feeling sometimes, like you're just standing on the edge of the cliff, you're like, Oh my god, am I gonna do? Am I gonna do it? And you just have to, like, jump into the waterfall or whatever. You just have to do it.

Alex Ferrari 22:36
Yeah, that's why we're here. That's why we're here. Why are you gonna play it safe? That's not boring. I mean, I'm not going to go and be a stripper for 10 days at a truck stop in Albuquerque. Because that's just not my path. And really, I would get no tips. But nobody wants to see that. You know? Nobody wants to see that documentary, I promise you. So, what was it like with your first feature film bear, which was based, not based on but kind of, in the world of every woman when it got accepted to Tribeca? I mean, what was that experience? Like? I always, anytime I have a filmmaker who gets into like Tribeca or Sundance or Cannes or something like that, I always want to hear the story of when they find out.

Natalia Leite 23:24
I mean, so thrilled you just don't know like, you go into it all just hoping for the best and it was the best It was really the best case scenario for me. It was like I wanted so badly to premiere there. And you're just waiting and waiting. And I was so thrilled and I was so impressed because the festival they do such an amazing job. They take such good care of their filmmakers. We weren't you we didn't know what to expect. But you know, they gave us the red carpet they gave us at party like it was it felt incredible. It was really yeah, it was really phenomenal.

Alex Ferrari 23:59
Now I see I see that you like putting yourself in yourself in your work? How do you handle being in front and behind the camera?

Natalia Leite 24:09
So it's a little challenging for me, which is honestly why I'm not putting myself in my work as much anymore because I feel like it's hard for me to focus on two things at once. being totally focused on my character and then also like directing the scene, you know, so I still like throw myself a little scene just for fun because I like that. You

Alex Ferrari 24:31
Pop your pop yourself in once in a while. Sure. Yeah, you'll do your Hitchcock Got it?

Natalia Leite 24:35
Yeah. But I just really I'm staying behind the camera right now because I want to craft the story and I think like just staying you know, more connected to the actress and the whole picture is really important. I really don't know how people are managed to do that. And like being the lead of a movie and also like directing. It seems really hard to me

Alex Ferrari 24:56
Like the Clint Eastwood's of the world and to George Clooney is of the world like I'm like how do you how do you do that? Right?

Natalia Leite 25:02
I mean, maybe like there's a point when you have a really solid support system that you can, you can lean on them. I think for me, I'm still building out, like who those people are. And when I find crew that I love, I'm just like, okay, like, We're family. Now you're coming with me everywhere, because it's so you know, being on set is so intensive, you just want to have that rapport with, you just want to assemble the family that you're going to carry around to every project without question. I

Alex Ferrari 25:31
Mean, my last film I the feature, I just direct that I was in it, unfortunately. And it was, it was difficult for the one scene or two scenes that I did, I was just like, oh, how do you do? How does people to

Natalia Leite 25:44
No it's really hard? Because you can't, you can't be in the moment and also be thinking big picture, or at least I can't

Alex Ferrari 25:50
Write or unless you unless you have that trust behind the camera that you like, Okay, my dp is going to cover me while I'm in the scene. Right? And then and then you just after you're cut, you're like, Was it good? I have no idea. Right? That's how I always did i do think good. Is that and is there is that really, and then all of a sudden, you turn to the actor you like you're looking for, like, approval or like, yeah, did I do good? Can I do it again? But then no one wants to tell you no. But that's when you want that dp to go. Dude. did do it again. Just Yeah. But generally, they're going now it's the light was off. And I'm like, I don't care about the light. I care about the performance right. Now, what do you enjoy to create more narrative features series or documentaries?

Natalia Leite 26:40
I love I love narrative features. I love like having an arc like a very clear introductory, beginning, middle and that we're going through and thinking about how like the character is transforming and that I think series like it can just go on forever, right? So there's like, less of that clear hook. I like just even like, as someone who like read so many psychology books and thinks about how we transform as humans in the world. Like I love that beginning to end journey. But yeah, and I but I also think like sometimes on the, like, features is so hard, I would say like, because you have to have a clear end, right? Like you can't just be like, and then maybe in season two, this happens, right? Like it has to stop. And I like crafting that. And the doc stuff for me. It's just fun because I like dealing with real people. So more. So I've been trying to find ways to merge the two, right? Like puts put real people in my scripted work and then also get actors to be in non scripted situations and surgeons create a fusion of that

Alex Ferrari 27:50
Kind of like Shaun Baker does. I love Shaun Baker. Yeah, I'm a big fan of his work. Sean's awesome. I mean, the Florida project I have no idea why that was not didn't get more issued a one more stuff. It was just

Natalia Leite 28:03
So great. He's Uh, yeah, he's lovely. And we've talked a few times. He's just been really supportive, awesome friend as well.

Alex Ferrari 28:10
Now, tell me a little about your film MFA, which I haven't gotten a chance to see the movie, but I saw the trailer and I was I was again blown away by the by the the subject matter and how you twisted something that normally doesn't get shown that way?

Natalia Leite 28:26
Yeah, so MFA. Leah Mackendrick was the writer on it. She wrote it. And she is also an actress. And she had just seen my work and just send me a cold email and was like, Hi, I'm looking for director I'd love for you to consider this. And normally I'm like, Oh, I don't you know, like, normally this stuff is not good. But when I get these emails, but I read her logline, and she sent me the script, and I was like, oh, wow, like this is really, really strong. And it was just surprising to just get an email like that. And so her and I started talking, she already had some financing in place. It was a small movie. So private investors, piecing it together. And, and yeah, and then we were shooting pretty quickly, but it was it worked out really well. It was like also one of those magical collaborations because we didn't know each other at all. I didn't know any other people that she had already assembled, you know, producer wise for the project. But we all got along really well and made something really special. And the story, you know, has I had like a deep personal connection to it. Having gone to art school, I had been sexually assaulted when I was in art school. So it was almost like, Oh, I have to make this project right. And Francesca Eastwood who played the lead was just I was just so blown away by her and her performance and throwing herself into some pretty difficult scenes. Like talking about like things that make you terrified right? Shooting that rape scene with Francesca was terrifying to me. And I was so and we did so many different cuts of it. And I was so worried that it was. It's truly disturbing. Like a lot of people have imagined, of course, that scene up as like it's too raw and real. And but yeah, you got to just push yourself to go there.

Alex Ferrari 30:22
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And again, when you do that is when it starts to shut the work starts to shine, more and more, if you would have held back there, the movie might not have had the same impact. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it took you tell. Just tell the audience a little bit about the logline, if you will, of the movie.

Natalia Leite 30:47
Yeah. So MFA is about an art student getting her masters of Fine Arts. And she has a crush on a boy in her class, which was played by Peter vac, and he ends up raping her at a party. And she acts she kind of from then on ends up seeking revenge and hunting down slash killing the rapist on campus. So it's a great revenge story, but in a very different tone than what we've seen before.

Alex Ferrari 31:16
It's not as much I spit on your grave?

Natalia Leite 31:18
Not at all. No, no, it's very raw and emotional. It's very much her point of view.

Alex Ferrari 31:24
And really, yeah, it is it is a kind of a, like you were saying it is a little bit of a combination of the real and the fictional, because of the way you shot it, at least from the trailer. It doesn't look like a Hollywood flashy film. But it also doesn't look like a documentary. It looks a little hybrid, hybrid ish.

Natalia Leite 31:45
Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I wanted it to be accessible to people, right? So I think about that, too. Like, who's the audience for this, and I want, I want it to be fast and fun, too. And there's a version of it, that could have just been a really depressing movie. And I didn't want to be it. You know, I wanted you to be like, cheering for her and excited when she gets her revenge. And there is a part, especially in the second half of the movie, where it really is more like playing off of the fun and excitement of her getting what she wants. Well,

Alex Ferrari 32:17
There's some humor in the trailer without question. So I can only imagine. Yeah, there's humor in it, though. It's kind of like a bridge of different genres here. Which isn't, which is an interesting take on the subject matter. Because you're right. It could have been it could have just gone straight, dark, real quick, and stayed there. And it's hard to get an audience back from that. But

Natalia Leite 32:37
Nobody wants to watch that. You know, we need to also have some levity and fun with it. We need to be able it needs to feel cathartic for people watching it.

Alex Ferrari 32:45
Now, what are some of your greatest challenges about the process of making films? greatest challenges, I mean, onset creative dealing with Hollyweird dealing well on Hollywood, for sure. How Yeah, how does that work? Like I just can't see you in a room with an agent talking about this stuff. Like I love that term, Hollyweird. No, Tom. Yeah, I mean, I'm an East Coast guy. So I've been out here. I've been out here for 10 years. So I have a completely different perspective on on living out here. I wasn't raised out here. So I see it. And I've been around long enough to just go Yeah, this is Hollyweird. But I've just because so many times here in Los Angeles, people just don't get things that are outside the box, where you live outside the box, you know, you're not ever in the box in any of the work that I've seen. So I would just love to be a fly on the wall. If you have a conversation with a Hollywood agent, or Hollywood producer, or studio like so, Natalia, what would you like to do next? Well, you know, there's this stripper thing that Yeah, I've been really into body horror lately. I've been itching body horror idea. Body. What is it body whore?

Natalia Leite 34:06
Body horror. So like Cronenberg? Yeah. Oh, does a lot of that. Right where it's like horror, but it's really like happening to you and to your body.

Alex Ferrari 34:16
Very, very, I think Disney is involved. I think Disney should get involved.

Natalia Leite 34:20
Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's really interesting. And some people you know, I just keep trying to remind myself because you can try to remind myself to like, stick by my integrity stick by my morals. Just do what I feel is right. And dockets persuaded by these the Hollyweird port part of it, which is a lot of people who just, you know, you know, maybe they're even presenting you with like a shiny opportunity, and it looks really good and you want to go there, right? But you're like, wait, this isn't me, I can't do this or it's an opportunity. That means you'd have to like, like, burn bridges on something else or upset or that you No. So it's like, you just have to stay there. It is a crazy industry. And you have to, I just keep always like checking back into myself and be like, does this make me feel good? Is this me? Like, do I really want to do this? Like, does this represent what kind of work I want to put out in the world? And I think that's so important. I mean, I'm lucky right now, because my agents are actually really awesome. My, my managers as well. And the people that I'm in touch with, but I've, I've circled, I've cycled through agencies, you know, already been in that, like, short career that I've had already, like, jumped around to different agencies. So hopefully, this is the one that I stay with, like long term, because I really like these people. And it's all about the relationships, you know, that you're building?

Alex Ferrari 35:43
And do you have any? What's the like, the greatest challenge of you like onset, like, what's the biggest thing you have to deal with on set, that is just a big challenge for you.

Natalia Leite 35:52
Collaboration, I think collaboration and always try to be super clear with your vision, like from day one, because other people might not get it. Making sure you're on the same page. But it's always hard when you want to push, sometimes it's hard to explain things, right? Like in MFA. I like really want to push for a certain thing, but it's not 100% my project, and the more of work you do are, the bigger the work gets, the more that's going to be the scenario, right? Where there's other producers and other people and weighing in on what the final outcome is. And it can only be your way. So. And while all that can be quite amazing to have that collaboration, it is also like a huge challenge sometimes, how to get people to do what you what you really ultimately want out of it.

Alex Ferrari 36:42
Oh, yeah, I agree with you. 110%. That's

Natalia Leite 36:46
Hard. But you know, you have to, like, make some sacrifices to and I felt like, in every project like that, it was like, Alright, you know, you get this, but then I have to keep I have to keep this thing. But you know what? I'm trying to

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Go I'm sorry, to interrupt you.

Natalia Leite 37:01
So that's it just trying to find a compromise? Like, let's let's split up like so we're both happy here.

Alex Ferrari 37:07
I find that, you know, I've been you know, in my career, I've been challenged on set by crew, people, by actors, by egos constantly. How do you deal with it? Because I could only imagine it being even more difficult. You know, being a female director, it's getting easier. And I can't say from my perspective, it seems like it's getting the doors are opening, cracking just a slight bit more nowadays, than they were 20 years ago. But I can only imagine it being a little bit more difficult, especially if you have a rough crew or something like that. I'm just curious on what you do, and how you deal with that.

Natalia Leite 37:44
It's like, yeah, I think it's it's a challenge. I think also I present, you know, I'm small, I'm like five, four, I'm pretty I'm petite in size to you know, like, Latin, small woman, and look, and you know, people like don't it's and I'm also like, I want to be really friendly with the crew, you know, I want everyone to feel good that they're here on set. But that sometimes that gets like misinterpreted, and people think they can just

Alex Ferrari 38:11
Walk all over you.

Natalia Leite 38:12
Yeah. And I've had to, just to, you know, be really firm. Sometimes they're really like called call out the bullsh that like, hey, do you want to be here? You do actually want to do this? Because you don't have to you can walk away like I've literally said that someone

Alex Ferrari 38:28
You know, so if I Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Natalia Leite 38:32
Yeah. And then they you call them out on their bullshit. They'll be like, Oh, no, what, whoa, whoa, like, they'll step out of it, you know, but I think it's always better to be super upfront, and call it out. And even if that means having a super awkward conversation, than to pretend like it's, you know, that to like, go around to other people or pretend like it's not happening or just be giving someone shady look, right.

Alex Ferrari 38:55
Yeah, it's, it's, I feel sometimes it's like a prison yard. Like they're gonna test you to see what they can get away with. And season crew season crew, if they don't respect the director, it's done. Any crew for that matter. But if a season crew, like a seasoned dp, a seasoned, you know, gaffer and, and production designer, if these guys or girls don't respect you, or think that they can pull one over on you, it becomes a very difficult shoot.

Natalia Leite 39:24
Really difficult. I've also had situations where, you know, I was working with like, season, men, particularly who were like, a lot older than me, and who just couldn't even look me in the eye, you know, like they would be addressing my producer, even though the question was to me, and it was so odd, right? And I just felt like I was like, I have to say something because it's so obvious that this person is uncomfortable that I'm in this position with them, right. They came in, look at me in the face, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 39:59
Yeah, you have to I think the best advice is you just got to call him out on your shit on their shit right away. Because if you let it fester, it can actually grow as a cancer on the rest of the set. Right and exactly and all of a sudden, you've got a mutiny on your hands. And if you're not on a 10 day shoot 20 day shoot you it's gonna be hell, and it's going to be tough to get them back. So what

Natalia Leite 40:20
Are you know what the other thing that that makes me think of is just like, I think sometimes, too, because people I've had so many people tell me like, this is the right way to do it. Right? And I'm like, what is the right way to do it? No way to do anything. There's no right way to do it. And just because, like, yeah, I didn't go to film school. I don't know what the right way to do it. But this is the way that I want to do it. Because I think it works, you know, having people let go of like, the ideas of what is how it's supposed to go, you know, I'm not talking about like union rules or anything just like forms of directing or of putting things together. It's just challenging. Well, no, yeah. I

Alex Ferrari 40:55
Had a conversation with the filmmaker the other day that you know, he does all of his films improv, he does the, you know, Mark duplass style, Joe Swanberg style, you know, kind of work. And I gave the example is like, Look, you know, if you give, you know, Jason Paul, Jackson Pollock, Van Gogh and Dolly, a canvas and paint, they're going to paint a picture differently. Right, the only common denominator is the canvas and the paint and the brush. And only common denominator in filmmaking is an actor, a camera and a lens. You know, and how you tell that story is completely up to you. You know, as long as you get that story in that in that camera, somehow, it's, it's all relative.

Natalia Leite 41:39
Yeah, exactly. Anything else you have to like, push for what is your vision and your style, otherwise, everything ends up the same.

Alex Ferrari 41:45
And one, one piece of advice I got from a director and old school director, I've never done this, I haven't had the balls to do it. But I think it would be fantastic to do it, just use it as a gag, the very first day on any set, nobody knows who you are, bring one of your friends on, and fire them. Just bring that they're just there. They're not supposed to be there. Just bring one of your friends tell them that they're like, you know, a part of a department and they do something wrong. And literally fire them as loudly as you can, in front of everybody and let them take off. And that will set the tone for the rest of the shoot. That was totally set the tone that would terrify people, you know, but I'm not sure if that's the vibe you want on set. But I've always wanted to do something I've never done. I've never had the balls to do it. But I think it would be hilarious.

Natalia Leite 42:35
Hilarious. That was so funny. I mean, that's not my style. Right when people just get along and be exactly

Alex Ferrari 42:43
like, you know, Ron Howard's not doing that, you know, James Cameron probably would.

Natalia Leite 42:48
Okay, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:49
It all depends on the style of directing that you do. So tell me a little bit about your commercial work. I see that you've gotten gotten into that world a bit.

Natalia Leite 42:58
Yeah. So on the commercial side, I've been working with a production company called humble. And I signed with them earlier this year. And it's been amazing, really good team there. And they've we've crafted, you know, they've sent me like already to different parts of the world for different shoots. So I did adopt style shoot in India, for vans, we did a thing for North Face here. And I actually just got back from Saudi Arabia to do another commercial out there, which was pretty wild. So it's been a really rewarding and fun part of my career to be able to travel deal with real people. And have obviously like the money support behind it as well.

Alex Ferrari 43:40
Yes. When you're writing your scripts, it can be very lonely, and the bank account can be very low. Yes, I agree. I I do commercials and series and stuff every once in a while between my features as well. So I completely understand what you're saying. Yeah. So it's been wonderful working with them. So I'm going to ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today?

Natalia Leite 44:05
I would say you have to have a lot of grit. And you have to really stick by what is it that you're putting out into the world? I don't think it's enough to just, you know, here's like, oh, here's like an entertaining story. Like we live in a world where there's like, a lot of change happening constantly. And I'm all about like, what are you saying with this? Why does this deserve to be here in the world for people to watch, right? And just like, Don't give up, there's going to be there's so many people that give up along the way, you know, it's like, there is just be patient and persevere. And that's how you get it. You know, it's like not people want a lot of like immediate gratification. And like you have to enjoy the journey to like constantly keep reminding myself of that, like, yeah, I want to do this big thing, but it could take years, I don't know, I just have to keep going. But I know I'm gonna get there.

Alex Ferrari 45:03
No, I always love when actors or film directors or writers come to LA and they go, I have a six month plan, right?

Natalia Leite 45:13
For these things to happen in six months, but if they don't, don't get involved,

Alex Ferrari 45:18
It's a 10 year plan, minimum,

Natalia Leite 45:20
You have to have the five year plan. I have my five year plan, like every, every and I reevaluate it every year. I'm like, okay, here's where I want to be five years, like, what are the steps to getting there? Like, here's this crazy, big budget project that I've been wanting to do already for a few years. And I feel so strongly about it, I'm not gonna give up on it. I'm just gonna keep finding ways to, to get there. You know, having that like long term vision is really important.

Alex Ferrari 45:48
Nothing you told me the book that had the biggest impact on your life or career?

Natalia Leite 46:01
Well, I mean, this is a hard question, just one book, but I watch everyone comes to your mind. You know, I think Rebecca solnit comes to my mind right now because I read all of her books, and I love her writing. And I feel so connected to her voice, and how she thinks about the world. And it's just always like, I've really read her books, and it just always, like, opens up possibilities for me.

Alex Ferrari 46:29
Awesome, awesome. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life confidence I'm still learning it, they you need that we need to have some

Natalia Leite 46:46
That that the lesson being just like, you got to believe in yourself, you know, it is the best lesson to believing in yourself. It's just like, so easy to forget that your voice is important.

Alex Ferrari 46:59
Now, what are the three with what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Natalia Leite 47:06
Three favorite films. Okay, we think for a second. I'm gonna say, I love the piano.

Alex Ferrari 47:21
That's a great movie. I love that movie.

Natalia Leite 47:23
It's a great movie. I've watched that film a few times and was just like, so beautiful. And there's so much emotion behind it. And Holly Hunter is incredible. I love this. This is hard. Wait, let me come back to it.

Alex Ferrari 47:45
It could just be like, it's not gonna be on your gravestone, such as three of your faces. Yeah, don't put it on my gravestone. No, no, it's whatever. three movies come to your mind today.

Natalia Leite 47:54
Okay, I loved fish tank. That's been like a film that I referenced a lot that was really loving trailer and old. There's this filmmaker called busua penzo. That did a film called x x y. Have you seen it?

Alex Ferrari 48:08
Yes. Yes. Yes. I know that movie.

Natalia Leite 48:11
Yeah, I really like her work. I thought that film was just so subtle and emotional and just strong subject matter. Very cool. same vein right now. Maybe that's just how I'm feeling in the moment.

Alex Ferrari 48:23
It's it. Listen, tomorrow, I asked you this question. Yeah, something else? Exactly. It's, it's, again, it won't be on your gravestone, so don't worry. And where can people find you? online?

Natalia Leite 48:36
You can find me on Instagram or Twitter, or on my website, which is just my name. NataliaLeite.com. And I'd love to stay in touch with people I love to talk to people. I always write back so unless you're sending me like a creepy comment.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
Natalia, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your process with us and you are an inspiration to I know a lot of filmmakers who are going to be listening to this. Thank you again for taking the time.

Natalia Leite 49:05
Thank you so much, Alex.

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BPS 419: Going Undercover and Directing for VICE with Natalia Leite

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