The Hidden Tools of Comedy: The Serious Business of Being Funny

BPS 341: Creating Comedy’s Hero’s Journey with Steve Kaplan

November 17, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Steve Kaplan is a renowned comedy consultant and author of “The Hidden Tools of Comedy,” a book that delves into the mechanics of comedy and the psychology behind humor. He has adapted Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey framework to comedy writing in a way that helps writers understand how to create engaging and funny stories. Here’s a simplified version of “Comedy’s Hero’s Journey” based on Steve Kaplan’s approach:

The Ordinary World:
- Introduce your protagonist in their everyday life, emphasizing their flaws or quirks.
- Highlight the comedic elements in their character and situation.
The Call to Adventure:
- Present a challenge or opportunity that pushes the protagonist out of their comfort zone.
- Make sure this situation has humorous potential, whether through absurdity, irony, or misunderstandings.
Refusal of the Call:
- Show how your protagonist initially resists or avoids the challenge, often to comedic effect.
- Highlight their fears, flaws, or comedic traits that lead to this resistance.
Meeting the Mentor:
- Introduce a mentor or guide who provides comedic wisdom or advice.
- This mentor can be a quirky character who imparts humor and helps the protagonist understand their journey better.
Crossing the First Threshold:
- The protagonist decides to face the challenge and enters a new world or situation.
- Bring out the comedic elements of their initial struggles and missteps.
Tests, Allies, and Enemies:
- Create a series of comedic trials, challenges, and encounters with allies and enemies.
- Use humor to showcase the protagonist’s growth and development as they tackle these obstacles.
Approach to the Inmost Cave:
- The protagonist approaches a pivotal, high-stakes moment in their journey.
- Use humor to heighten the tension and the absurdity of the situation.
The Ordeal:
- Present a climactic, comedic confrontation or obstacle that tests the protagonist.
- Comedy can come from the unexpected twists and the protagonist’s humorous reactions.
Reward (Seizing the Sword):
- The protagonist achieves their goal or overcomes a major obstacle.
- Inject humor into this moment to celebrate their success in a comedic way.
The Road Back:
- Show the aftermath of the protagonist’s victory and how they plan to return to their ordinary world.
- Humor can come from the consequences of their actions and decisions.
Resurrection:
- Present a final, humorous challenge or confrontation that forces the protagonist to prove their growth and resolve.
- Comedy can be used to emphasize the transformation they’ve undergone.
Return with the Elixir:
- The protagonist returns to the ordinary world, bringing humor, wisdom, or a newfound perspective with them.
- Conclude the story with a comedic twist or resolution that ties up loose ends.

In Steve Kaplan’s approach to Comedy’s Hero’s Journey, the focus is on using humor to engage the audience and enhance the storytelling process. This framework helps comedy writers understand how to create funny and relatable characters and situations while still following the classic Hero’s Journey structure.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:44
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:49
This week's guest is one of the most sought after coaches in comedy. His first book, The Hidden Tools of Comedy was one of the one of my favorite books that came out in the past couple of years. And it's been an international bestseller. And his new book, which we're going to talk all about the Comic Hero's Journey is out now everywhere. So without further ado, was Steve Kaplan. So Steve, you've been on twice before, and this is your third time on the podcast? How does it feel?

Steve Kaplan 2:16
It feels good. I'm still waiting for my third time. Jacket, you know, like they do on SNL. But I'll I'll just wait. I'm sure that's in the mail.

Dave Bullis 2:27
It is and if it gets lost? Well, you know what? There's been a lot of cutbacks at the post office, Steve. So

Steve Kaplan 2:33
Oh, boy. Okay, well, I'll continue nevertheless.

Dave Bullis 2:37
By the way, here's a funny story for you, Steve. Really quickly, I used to work at the post office.

Steve Kaplan 2:44
So that explains it there. They

Dave Bullis 2:45
were so desperate, they hired me. Can you believe that?

Steve Kaplan 2:49
So So So did you experience what it meant to go postal?

Dave Bullis 2:53
Well, it was the I have an unfair advantage. And that that part of it because I've always been like, you know, that unhinged guy at work. So I kind of walked in with a chip on my shoulder. So.

Steve Kaplan 3:05
Okay, and what what were you what were your duties at the post office? Were you walking around? Or were you behind the desk or

Dave Bullis 3:11
neither? I actually was the guy who was in like the NL at the warehouse, and we would like sort mail. We'd move like tons of mail from here to there. We would like stock, we would help like the actual postal workers. We'd actually like you know, here's all the mail for your route today. And here's what you got to do. Yeah, it was it was not a very glamorous job. So if you're thinking of telling me

Steve Kaplan 3:33
Tell me one thing that you hoped your supervisors never found out

Dave Bullis 3:42
that I probably took the only thing I could do say is I took longer breaks than I should have. I didn't like steal any mail or hide in woods mail. Nothing like that. I'd never I would never do anything like that. I'm so sorry. I don't have any like crazy stories. Like I didn't I didn't tell the bag a male definitely like a sewer or something. But

Steve Kaplan 4:01
did you ever he did you ever know anybody who did? Oh,

Dave Bullis 4:06
stuff would go like I mean, Steve like they used to, like throw stuff across the the entire floor. So like, you know, they would take a box that says fragile, and they would just boot it all the way across the whole room. Oh, yeah, that happens on the regular.

Steve Kaplan 4:21
Okay, well, this is the basis of a new Sundance comedy. I can I can see it now. Going stone.

Dave Bullis 4:30
I thought you were gonna say like a new lawsuit against the post. I got this guy. Oh, it's

Steve Kaplan 4:35
everything is story. Everything is a is something to generate story.

Dave Bullis 4:40
That's very true. And, you know, I've seen a lot of the interviews you've done, Steve, and not just the ones that you've done here. You know, you've been on twice before. But you know, you've been on film courage. You know, you've done a lot a ton of interviews. And you know, you're you're very good at, you know, sort of putting comedy perspective, which and what I mean by that is putting putting, you know, it has to be a story, there has to be a reason. It's funny, because if it's just a series of events, it really doesn't mean a lot, right?

Steve Kaplan 5:09
Well, it's not that it doesn't mean I've been thinking about that a lot in the new book that I wrote comic hero's journey. I was thinking today that I didn't give enough props to totally silly comedies that that have nothing on their mind other than to be totally silly. And I was thinking about the fact that one of the reasons that I don't have a section on that is because it's so hard to do. Because you're not you have nothing to hang. Hang the narrative on you don't you you you kind of have characters but they're not fully dimensionalized characters. I'm thinking of things like like the jerk that I just recently rescreened. You don't have a story that you really care about, because you know that the characters are just there for laughs. And when it works, it's it's it's amazing. But it's it's very hard to work, I can think of a lot more instances where it doesn't work like scary movie for or or, you know, Naked Gun, this the seven sequel, because while it's possible to do it, it's it's a very hard trick to pull off, because what it means is that you are entertaining the audience in one particular way. For for 95 minutes, or 100 or 105 minutes. And that's extremely difficult to because you don't have a love story to fall back on. You don't have you don't have any real tension to fall back on. There's no suspense. There's no drama, there's no, there's nothing thematic that hooks in. And what I found, what I find is that when I go back and watch these movies, like the jerk, they don't hold up that well. I mean, for me at least, that that, you know, having being familiar with the comedy of it, the jokes of it. I'm not as as I'm not taking for a ride anymore, and I kind of see the shallowness of it. Although at the time I loved it. I was I was a big fan, one movie that's like that, that still works for me, is there a plane? And I think the reason for that is because even though it is as silly as the day is long, you care about that Robert K's character, you care about him. Somehow they make you a, you know, they make you concerned, they they have a knot, it's kind of the reverse of a save the cat in drama, you have to save the cat moment. In comedy, you often have the cat scratches your heroes face, and then the then pees on his leg and then walks away. You you're made to feel sympathetic, you're made to feel bad for the for the character, and that that makes you care. And if you care about the character that no matter how silly the circumstances are, you're you kind of fall into the narrative. You're hooked in the narrative. So that's what I've been thinking about. That's a that's a long answer to a question you didn't even ask.

Dave Bullis 8:27
And those are the best ones, Steve. I trust me. Because because, you know, people tune into you always hear the guests like always say, and it's always good to, you know, with a guest that oh, you know, talks more than I do. And I look good, too, because I didn't have to ask a question. You already gave me an answer. So thank you. Thank you for that, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 8:44
Well, there you go. So,

Dave Bullis 8:45
but you know, I watched the jerk again recently. You know, I still love the movie. I actually think it's hilarious, but I see what you mean. But you know, and when I watched movies, like the jerk, and then you kind of compare it to today. You know, I still think the jerk has more character development, because some movies today maybe, you know, maybe there's not so much character development, or maybe there are too many, you know, there are too many jokes that really don't kind of tie in with it. So you know, and then that kind of ties with one of the questions I want to ask you is, you know, what are some of the recent movies that you've seen where that have that have not only been funny, but you also thought they were good because they actually told a story, you know, that actually focused on a character?

Steve Kaplan 9:28
Oh, well. I would sit you know, I would say Lady Bird. If you're gonna go on the on the spectrum of amusing to hilarious Lady Bird might not be on the hilarious side of that spectrum. But it's moving. It's funny. It's true. It's authentic.

Alex Ferrari 9:50
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 10:00
I like I like to the Grand Budapest Hotel again, it's just this perfect little fairy tale that has very exaggerated characters. But ultimately it's it's about it's about honor and integrity in a strange way because it's about this maitre d who you know who screws all the while the elder guests the hotel, but in a strange way, it's it's about a holding on to something that's valuable from the past and mourning the things that are lost. In terms of movies that I think I thought were just funny, I thought spy was very successful in terms of parodying that James Bond formula, and yet finding its own comedy in in what Melissa McCarthy does. So. So I think, let me see, what was there something you know, most of the comedy that I see today on our movie, you know, successful comedies on movies as much as as what you see on television, and especially on this on the streaming channels. brockmeyer is, is a binge worthy favorite of mine. It's because I love baseball. And I love Hank Azaria. And he just takes this dissolute character to its ultimate illogical, logical conclusion. And it makes sense. It's the hem hangers area. Amanda Pete, great stuff very funny. And the marvelous, Mrs. Maisel said, Did I pronounce that right? And I can ever figure that out? I'm just starting to watch season two. So that's very good. I, I think it's hard to it's hard to do a feature comedy, because the, because the marketplace kind of demands them to dumb down their material. So you have something like, have you seen tag? Right,

Dave Bullis 12:18
I've seen tag. So

Steve Kaplan 12:19
I don't know what you thought of tag. But I thought that, that it's kind of an odd, quirky story that I couldn't see the reason why they made it into a movie. Because even though there were some funny things that happened, it kind of eluded me. Maybe you had a different experience. But I find that a lot of what gets into the theaters is something that they're condescending to the audience, they think you Well, this is funny, they'll like it, as opposed to what's the best story we can tell? And what's the most common way we can tell it? Yeah,

Dave Bullis 13:03
I sold tag. And I, it's Yeah, I kind of felt that way, too. It's kind of like, you know, how did this, you know, get made into a movie? It's kind of one of those things where like they made you kind of see the poster and you're like, well, maybe it could be good, you know, and then and then it's kind of like, you know, they made this little movie. I'm sure there was a market for it. I don't know how well did I really I don't have the numbers, but I don't know what I don't think there's gonna be a sequel?

Steve Kaplan 13:32
No, I don't think so. I you know, in a way, sometimes the best comedies nowadays are the animated comedies, because they're, they they're creating, especially the Pixar comedies, they're creating material, that has to be four quadrant that has to appeal towards everybody. So it can't just be silly jokes that the kids like, there has to be something for the parents. They want something for the parents, and those Pixar movies are all driven thematic, like as opposed to driven by plot and gag. So Incredibles two, Coco, is that was that? Was that the one with the day? The dead? I think that's I think I'm getting

Dave Bullis 14:18
that right. Yeah, that was Coco. Yeah.

Steve Kaplan 14:21
I mean, those are those are wonderful, inventive, imaginative, and moving, moving pieces of of comic film. And I guess I guess there's the sense because it's not R rated, that they can just tell a story and they're not beholden to do something outrageous or gross every 10 minutes to keep this imaginary audience of 30 year old boys happy.

Dave Bullis 14:52
So you know, you mentioned brockmeyer I've never seen an episode, but I have a friend who swears by it. Because he just loves was high cause area as well. But you know, speaking of baseball shows, have you ever seen Eastbound and Down? I

Steve Kaplan 15:05
do like Eastbound and Down. And the thing is, is that I like Eastbound and Down I like Danny McBride. And if you put the two of them together, the thing that I like more about brockmeyer is that it expands the the the envelope of what's what could be, what could actually have have happened, and it doesn't break the envelope. Whereas with Eastbound and Down, you often have to just leave your your good send off to one side and just to just enjoy Danny McBride is this outrageous, not too bright ex baseball player. So those are actually two similar projects, which I think one is, is done better. But, but both both have both have amusing things. I mean, you know, for me, you you start with the hardest question for me day, which is what have you seen that you like? Which makes me feel obligated to? Well, what's what did I like, that's good. But the taste is subjective. That's one of the things that I, I, I teach strongly in my workshops in my books is that is that funny is subjective. mean? What I find funny, you might not find funny, it doesn't make me right and you wrong or vice versa. So you so if you're not going to try to create funny, what's going to make me laugh as opposed to what's going to make you laugh, then you then you want to try to create comedy, which is telling the truth about people, what's true about people and telling the truth about that, using you know, a variety of methods that that make it that bring it out of the mundane and the ordinary and and elevate it to two common kind of comic art and comic truth. So so if you if you ask me, what what have I seen that I I really like, I'm, I'm really drawn to two movies that I've seen years ago that I stood that still stay with me, like about a boy, or 500 days of summer movies that are funny, but they have something on their mind. And they they move me. They move me in three ways they move me kinetically I laugh, they move me emotionally, I feel and they move me intellectually, I think. And to me, those are the best movies. And to me, I still I still go to my favorite, which is Groundhog Day. And I guess my second favorite might be 40 Year Old Virgin, which I just spent a day screening for a class in Milan, trying to teach them how it works in terms of the comic hero's journey.

Dave Bullis 18:01
So when you screen them, oh, by the way, those are two very good choices, by the way. So because, you know, Groundhog's Day, I you know, you we could we could dissect that right now. But I, I mean, it's it's such a great movie, because, you know, repeating the same day over and over. And eventually you're right. I think he touched upon this in an interview before maybe you and I talked about this, but where he kind of assumes that he's God. And he kind of assumes these things. That's how people would have really, you know, you that's how if that happened to you or me, you would assume that same thing. Right?

Steve Kaplan 18:34
I mean, and that's that's really the brilliance of the Harold Ramis revision of the originally, the original Danny Rubin script is that in at least in the final shooting version, they he kind of holds very closely to, okay, this impossible thing happened, that he's waking up into the same day over and over again. But having having admitted that having just gone along and said okay, this impossible thing happened, what would happen then, if this were true, what would really happen at that and I think one of the things that makes Groundhog Day work so well is that is that even though incredible, weird, funny things happen. It stays within the reality of the impossible situation that they created. He wakes up the same day, he remembers everything, nobody remembers anything. So he can go to a girl and and try to pick her up. And if he makes if he says something wrong and turns her off, he can come back the next day and and make it better. So she'll say what should we toast to? And he'll he's at a bar and you'll say Let's toast to the groundhog. And she kind of gets turned off by that. So he comes back the very next day.

Alex Ferrari 19:58
We'll be right back after a word from Our sponsor and now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 20:07
And she says, What should we toast to? And he turns all solemn. And he says, I'd like to say a word for, you know, a prayer for world peace. And, and, of course, because he figures having gone through trial and error, he knows that that will that will endear himself to her. So I, you know, I like the fact that it takes an impossible or improbable situation, which in my book, I call the WTF moment, the WHAT THE FUCK moment. And, and after that, everything that happens after that evolves organically, and I'm honestly out of character guided by theme.

Dave Bullis 20:54
Yeah, it's, it's kind of like every guy's dream, right, you have a limited chances to actually pick up a girl. Right? So, but, but no, it's, it's, it's like those days, you know, that the harder Groundhog's Day was, you know, is basically, you know, he had to find out what was missing in his life and basically, you know, find out all the mistakes that he was making. And, you know, even when he thought he had the perfect day, he would he would never he woke up again. And he goes, what the hell I thought it you know, I got it. I did all this right. And he, he still didn't wake up. And then finally as it progressed, it was he he had to, I forget the the female character's name in there that he ended up with at the end. We have railroad Right, right. And read a play by Andy McDowell. Right? Well, I remember his name was Phil, because I remember that guy was like, Do you feel like the groundhog? See, it's stuck with me. It's like a mnemonic device. But and then you have for your version, which, you know, I think, you know, again, that's brilliant. Especially, you know, I mean, it's probably even more true today than it was when it was made even a few years ago, because you got a lot of millennials still living at it, you know, they you know what, I mean, they still living at home. A

Steve Kaplan 22:02
That's true. That's true. But I think I for me, the thing, the brilliance of the Apatow film, is the brilliant combination. And, and, and, and the balance between gross out humor and real heart? Where, whereas before, you had lots of films, you know, like, there's Rob Schneider films, which were just basically how can we be grosser than the Farrelly brothers and get away with it and get some laughs. But what Judd Apatow did is he he kind of hit the sweet spot between consider a conservative sentimental story, and, you know, balls to the wall, gross out humor. And, and in fact, in talking about the film, he he often talks about the fact that there were things he cut out, because they lost the audience, they might have gotten some laughs from some from some people. But if he, when he showed it to the audience, for instance, there were there was much more pornography, literal pornography, that that they were looking at, on the screens, because they were in this, you know, the true tech or whatever the name of smart tech was the electronic store. And there was a sequencing which they lock Andy, which was played by Steve Carell in the in the booth where you could test out sound systems, and they locked him in there with a pornographic film to get him out of his. I know virgin dumb. And in the, in one of the original cuts, there was a lot more porno film in it. And in fact, I this is a very, this is a very, I think, odd point. But the actress in the porno film, I think is Stormy Daniels. i i You could check me on that. But I think that that stormy Daniels in there and and what they found it at a test screening was that it was funny, it got a laugh, but it lost the audience. Because you know, maybe they were a little uncomfortable. Or maybe they just thought oh, is this the movie we're going to watch now it's it's going to be as you know, more gross than more gross and more gross grosser and grocer as opposed to dumber and dumber. And so he he edited that out and he trimmed it and he took out the part that that pushed the audience away not offended the audience, but push them out of the narrative push them out of the caring about the character. And and, and so to me, one of the one of the one difficult things about the movie. Is that right? When you think, Oh, now they're going to really make fun of this character, and they're going to mock him. You empathize with him. you sympathize with him. You feel bad for him after he after it's revealed that he's a virgin at the poker game. There's not a sequence where he's like doing something dumb. He's, he's riding his bike home in pain in agony. The first thing you see when he gets to his apartment is a shot of him screaming like this primal scream of pain and humiliation. And the result of that is that you're thinking, Oh, my God, this isn't just a joke. That's supposed to last for 90 minutes. This is a human being who's had who's has this improbable. Like go back to impossible or improbable, this improbable thing. He's 40 years old. He's still a virgin. It's not impossible, but it's improbable. And what would happen? What would he do? And and the guys at the at the at Smart Tech, they don't just make they don't make fun of them. Some of them do some minor characters who we see for a second, but the main three buddies, Seth Rogen, Paul Rudd and Romany Malco. They're out to help him. It's actually a very heartwarming and an inclusive movie about about growing up and trance transformation. So to me, those those are movies, when I go to the movies, and I see something that's not not really a transcendent experience, I often have to go and watch something else that I think I think is and it could be something as, as classic as shop around the corner, or you've got mail, which is the same story but updated, or it's a wonderful life or meet me in St. Louis, these stories that combine comedy with heart and a point of view and an idea in their head.

Dave Bullis 27:21
You know, you mentioned the Farrelly brothers. One of my favorite movies of all time, by the way is Dumb and Dumber. And, you know, as you also mentioned, Dumb and Dumber. I don't know if you met that on purpose. But you know what I mean? And so I just wanted to say what do you what do you think of Dumb and Dumber?

Steve Kaplan 27:36
I think it's one of the things that when I talked about movies that are just kind of designed to make you laugh, and not not a lot else, that's one of the movies that succeeds wonderfully, because they they have this silly premise where these two dumb guys are going to go on this road trip. And they just keep on finding inventive ways to keep it fresh. And one of the ways that they do it is by at any 1.1 of them. One of the dumb guys is slightly more aware and smarter than the others. So it's this wonderful Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy routine all the way throughout. But they but they switch it enough so that it doesn't become repetitive or predictable. So I I love I love Dumb and Dumber. And, and I think it's, it's it's one of the it's one of the few movies that I think tries to be funny from beginning to end, and then succeeds, but it's really, really hard. And if and if you want proof of how hard it is. Take a look at the Farrelly brothers, Three Stooges, which is you know, the Listen, these are the same guys. They're talented guys. Bobby read my book and wrote me a nice note about it, which I love, you know, which I liked. But the Three Stooges it only works sporadically because there's not, you know, because there's really no story other than, hey, we're doing the Three Stooges. And, and it's got some silly plot, but you don't really care about them the way you care about the characters in Dumb and Dumber or, or more. Even more the characters in There's Something About Mary.

Dave Bullis 29:31
Yeah, and you know, that's kind of one of the hardest things to do for writers, right, is to create empathy for a character. So the audience, you know, they they not only they don't sympathize, but you know, sympathy is feeling sorry for somebody, but empathy is putting yourself into their shoes. So you can see things from their point of view. And that's kind of one of the hardest things I that I think for writers to do, because it's what Pixar does so well.

Alex Ferrari 30:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show,

Dave Bullis 30:09
which is, you know, right off the bat caring about characters getting involved their story. So you actually give a damn if they see if they succeed or not?

Steve Kaplan 30:16
Well, in a way, it's actually the easiest thing to do, because all you have to do is tell your own story. One of the things that Pixar does so well, is they spend so much time on story, and they're willing to throw out years of work, hundreds and 1000s of dollars worth of work in order to get the story right. In inside out, for instance, at first it was going to be joy, the character of joy and fear going on that journey. And, and then they spent a lot of time trying to make that work, and it didn't work. And ultimately they had to go, they had to realize that what joy needs is her opposite, Joy needs sadness. And the way you get there is not by intellectualizing by going, you know, what I think Joy should be what you what you get, how you get there is by sharing your own feelings, sharing your own sense of, of what's happened to you as a person. I, I can't remember exactly who on the creative team. It was, but somebody had the experience of leaving Minnesota, and going to a new city as a kid, and that became the movie. So it's not a matter of how can you make a character empathetic, tell your own story. Be honest, in the fictional in that fictional world, tell your own story. Somebody once said that all fiction is autobiography. Every piece of fiction is that is actually telling you more about the person who's writing it then about the characters who are in it. And I think that's true. So, in, in, There's Something About Mary, there's this wonderful moment. It's not the first moment in the film, but it's one of the flashback moments. When we see Ben Stiller, as a teenager with really terrible braces. Go to pick Mary up for the prom, and the end, he rings the doorbell. And this, the door opens. And I forget the name of the actor, but the actor is African. A Keith David Right, Keith David opens the door. And you know, Mary's not African American, so he's confused for a second. So he kind of picks up at the door number for a second and then the guy says what are you here for? And he says I'm here to pick up Mary for the prom. And Keith David because Keith David's this practical joke. He says all Mary went to the prom 20 minutes ago with her boyfriend Woogie. And there's this moment where you see Ben Stiller, his face, just just, you know, fall apart. You know, he's any he's trying, you know, he's trying to hold it together and just goes kind of, okay. And he's about to walk away. And yes, then the mom comes in and says, Oh, he's kidding. Come on, in. But in that moment, we confronted all our disappointments from adolescence, everybody who's ever stood up, or didn't have a date or, or had a bad date or was or is or was passed over for being picked for volleyball. You know, we, we all empathize with that moment, and it's not saved the cat. It's basically the cat scratched me. And, and, and, and it's a universal feeling. So what happens? What happens in a comedy is you want to make sure that the more the more exaggerated and ridiculous event that's going to happen later on in the movie. That means that you have to be more honest and real earlier in the movie, to make us care make us care, because eventually later on in that scene, Ben Stiller finds himself in a bathroom and he zips up too quickly and he catches a very important appendage in a zipper. Which is ridiculous. I mean, it's it's just flat out silly. But if we don't care about the character, that's all it is just silly, as opposed to ask us kind of putting ourselves in his shoes and going, man, what else? What else wrong could happen today?

Dave Bullis 34:41
And basically, you know, like you always said, Steve, the like an action movie. The hero has all the tools. But in a bun in a comedy The Hero has no tools whatsoever,

Steve Kaplan 34:53
or Well, that was not not no tools, but the hero lacks some if not most of the tools so I mean, Woody Allen's very, very witty and very bright, but he's a physical coward. So you can, you can't be a total. Normally it can't be a total loser but but somebody who lacks some if not, if not all the skills I mean one of the in working on the common hero's journey, which was taking a look at the hero's journey. From a comedy point of view, one of the things that we that we came to in the beginning was the fact that in a, in a, in a drama in an action film, the the hero has all the skills necessary sometimes they are hidden within they have greatness hidden within only they don't know it, perhaps like Luke Skywalker, but in a comedy, your character starts the movie off with with there's no greatness within there. It's far from greatness within us as humanly possible. And basically, the story of a comedy is a story of a character who is comfortable, used to has, has resigned themselves to being this imperfect person. In fact, most of the times they don't even know that they're imperfect. And something some impossible or improbable thing happens to push them out of their comfort zone. And they're forced to transform. And they do transform, because they because like in big worry, he wakes up he's 30 years old and Groundhog Day he's waking up, it's the same day over and over again. There's no choice but to transform, because their circumstances have changed. So that they're our characters in a comedy become somebody who is is a more actualized human being it has more skills, but they start off as big zeros, what we call, you know, take, you know, taking your zero and making him into a hero.

Dave Bullis 36:55
Right And to go along with what you just said, you know, you're right. I misspoke when I said lack of lack of skills rise no or sorry, has zero skills. Because you have to have at least one trait for the audience. We like maybe this guy has a shot at something. Yeah. Yeah. So you see, that's where my head's at. Steve, I'm always like, look, just so let's just give them nothing and go from Let's go. Oh, no, no, something.

Steve Kaplan 37:21
I mean, in bridesmaids, Christian way get it is is totally messed up. But at least she has a good best friend in Maya Rudolph. Even though she doesn't have a job and she doesn't have a boyfriend and Jon Hamm is terrible to her. So so so our our heroes, our comic heroes start off with something. But most of the time that they're there, they're not aware of how of how bad their predicament is, or how, what what their, what their minus is their negative is. And most of the times our comic heroes start off with a short sighted goal you know, Bill Murray in Groundhog Day only wants to get a job at a at a bigger station where he can be a newscaster steam Steve Carell and 40 year old virgin only, he just wants to continue what he thinks is a great life. You know, he makes an omelet every morning by himself and he plays with his dolls, and he has all his his merchandise still in the original packaging, and he watches survivor with the elderly couple upstairs. He He's to him, that's okay. I'm not he's not he doesn't complain. And he's not even totally conscious that he's that he's unhappy. But what happens as our characters transform is they get what what we call the discovered goal, that in comedies, our characters discover a goal halfway through midway through that, that then becomes their ultimate goal, their their outer goal in order to accomplish whatever they're trying to accomplish in the movie.

Dave Bullis 39:10
Because like a four year old virgin, you know, if it were to be like, let's just say you know, real life and and, you know, that main character never ever realized how unhappy he was, you know, he was always 40 He was always just going to do the same old thing. Essentially, you could see that he would never change his routine, and he would just kind of, you know, die, so to speak physically, and we're just surrounded by that stuff and he would never there was an issue. Yeah. So and then again, when when he is going back to for your virgin when he when his whole goal was just to get laid at first and then he realizes he he's found somebody he actually loves by the boat. Yes.

Alex Ferrari 39:51
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 40:00
He, so the first thing he says is I respect when I totally respect women, I respect them so much I stay the hell away from them. And and then later on, it's like, no, I don't want to go to bed with the girl from the bookstore, I, I love Trish played by Catherine Keener eye and and he he does something which is way outside his comfort zone he races after her on his bike to you know to get the girl of his dreams so. So there there are a lot of there are some similarities between the hero's journey and the common hero's journey. You often at the end of an action film, you have the race to the finish. In a comedy, you're having you're seeing character transform, go from, you know, a zero to a match, and mentions a Yiddish word that means that like a good man, a complete person. And and so in an action film, Bruce Willis is going to kick ass from the minute he shows up on screen screen to the end. But our heroes and in accommodate, they're not going to kick ass in the beginning, they have to learn they have to gain skills, they have to gather allies, and they have to become better, better human beings in the world, more more comfortable, more integrated into the world that they live in.

Dave Bullis 41:38
Where and you know, we've kind of been, you know, talking sort of, in a roundabout way about the comic hero's journey. So let's talk about your new books.

Steve Kaplan 41:45
My new book. Funny, you should mention that that's my new book, The comic hero's journey, serious story structure for fabulously funny films now published by Michael, we see productions now available in your local Amazon?

Dave Bullis 41:59
Well, you know, it's funny, I looked down by my foot, and there was just sitting there, I was like, Hey, wait a minute here, I had at the end of the school year. But yeah, we were talking, you know, in a roundabout way about, you know, creating characters and, and, you know, finding out their their sort of wants and needs and goals. And, you know, so what was sort of the impetus for you to sort of write this book, you know, for the commentators journey? Well,

Steve Kaplan 42:26
I had been, I'd written my previous book, The Hidden tools of comedy, which was, which were specific tools and principles that you could apply towards film or television. And I would be teaching these workshops and people would say, would say, Well, how would this happen at this part in the movie, and it just made me think, okay, there are all these books and about story structure and, and a lot of my friends have written books about story structure, like Michael Haig and John Truby, and Chris Vogler. And I thought, well, well, is that how are the how is that story structure that the three ad format or the six plot point turning format? How does that work for comedy? So I started to explore that. And I realized some of it is similar, but there are important elements that are completely different. And that that are different in a comedy than than in than in a dramatic or action film. And so I started working on it, I started and I pitched it to my publisher, and I, I mentioned it to Chris Vogler who's written the the writers journey, which is based on the Joseph Campbell work, the monomyth in the hero with 1000 faces. And I said, Chris, do you mind? I'm going to steal your title, and your ID, I'm going to use it for comedy. And after a moment, he said, Okay, only only only mentioned me, as you're doing it. So I did. And so I and so this is a template for a writing a comic feature. It's not it's not the only way to write a comic feature. It's not the the end all and be all of of how to structure a story, but it's one way of taking a look at the hero's journey, and seeing how that that Monomyth works for comedy. And and the the I think one of the big differences is understanding that your hero starts off at loss, you know, that we talked about? An understanding that the funny thing that happens to them that that that what we call the comic premise, the impossible or improbable thing is the only time in in the story that you can make shit up that you can lie that after you impose that impossible or improbable event or happenstance, then you have to play honestly develop the cat develop the narrative, honestly, through character. And through theme. We talked about the fact that the characters are transforming, they have a discovered goal. And then we talk about the fact that, and this is, to me, this is almost it goes without saying, but I found out that, that it was a little bit of a revelation to people that I was working with, or talking to in workshops is that in order for the comic Hero's Journey to work, there has to be real pain, and real loss, there has to be, there has to be honest moments where where you where you drop into dry drop into drama. Otherwise, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't matter. So So that's, that's a part of the of the common hero's journey that's essential for comedies, and I can't think of a good comedy, in which there isn't some moment where we're all where the healer where all is lost, you know, the, the hero seems that they've given up that they're not going to achieve their goals that that the story is not going to end up and happily, and it doesn't mean you have to have a happy ending. But it does mean that you have to allow your character to experience not funny, loss and pain, but real loss and pain.

Dave Bullis 46:59
Right? So there actually has to be some real stakes, some actual losses, so you don't I mean, so it has to feel like you feel real, and feel that there's actually something at stake here rather than just kind of like, oh, you know, it'll, it'll it'll work out. Or

Steve Kaplan 47:13
it's all silly, so don't worry about it. It can't be, it can't be in Bugs Bunny cartoon, where you shoot bugs in the face with a shotgun and, and hey, there's When the smoke clears, he just has, you know, a bad complexion, but everything else is okay. So, so one of the one of the things that I've noticed in examining a lot of movies to write the book is not only are there moments of loss and pain, near three quarters of the way through, but a lot of movies start off with the characters having, having dealt with loss and pain or, or dealing with loss and pain, starting with, Sleepless in Seattle, where it starts off following the death of Tom Hanks wife, and now he's a widow, or spy with Melissa McCarthy, where, in the first 10 minutes, the hero of the movie Her the person, she idolizes Jude Law who's this very James Bond and kind of spy is is killed, spoiler spoiler alert, seemingly killed, right and right in front of her ears, because she's, she's monitoring everything back to back in Langley, Virginia. That, that a lot of the comedy comes out of real loss and pain, as opposed to well, it's a comedy, so nothing serious can really happen.

Dave Bullis 48:45
You know, and there's a, you know, it was a great example was the hangover. Because, you know, you kind of felt as some actual pressure there, and you know what I mean? Because, because, hey, look, there's a group that we have to find, because, you know, and we're the guys that lost them.

Steve Kaplan 48:59
Right? Actually, I liked parts of the hangover, but it wasn't crazy about the hangover. Precisely. Because those though, you know, especially the Bradley Cooper character was so amoral is like this teacher is drinking and let's just go off and do this thing and let's just party and their relation, none of their relationships. I mean, certainly the Who's the guy who lost the tooth at homes, the right the Ed Helms character, his his relationship is horrible. You don't want him to end up with her. So, so So one of the things that I was not crazy about in the hangover was the lack of, of empathetic characters and and thematic thematic development and resolution.

Alex Ferrari 49:53
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 50:02
And but what was brilliant about the hangover was how it melded a frat boy, Las Vegas Movie with a mystery. And to me that was that was what what made it very special is that once you woke up, and there's a baby and a tiger and how the hell did those things get there? Everything else worked, because they had to, they had to go on this, this mystery, you know, had to solve this, this impossible mystery and the way that they did that can't you know lead them into funnier and funnier situations? For me, the funniest moment is when the I think it's Ken Young, the naked Asian guy jumps out of the trunk of the car. That was funny but but the most satisfying moment of the movie was the was the credits where you see the night you know in all those photographs, you see the night that they went through. And because at the heart of the hangover is a dad that's why hangovers two and three while they might have made money, were aesthetically not very satisfying for me at least. Because there's nothing there. I you know, I don't really care about those guys. And the only guy I might want to care about was in hangover was basically on on a roof loss for for most of the movie. So so so I have to be a somebody who is on the don't love hangover side. Well, I still a great guy. Dang, you're still a wonderful guy, nevertheless.

Dave Bullis 51:47
Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to hold you to that. Steve, by the way, okay. It will I agree the the the hangover sequels Ay, ay, ay. And, you know, this too, when whenever there's a hit movie, you know, there's an inclination in Hollywood to say, hey, you know, let's start churning out those sequels. You know, let's hang over 17 Sounds good to me. Right. But then again, you know, if I was in a position where somebody was like, hey, look, Dave, you if you if you make a hit movie, we'll give you a couple million to write the sequel. I'd be like, you know, I'm gonna write to my hand falls off. You know, I

Steve Kaplan 52:18
think I think I'm with you there. But

Dave Bullis 52:21
yeah, I'll be in my grave writing sequels that movie as long as you've written checks. me there's a comedy idea right there, Steve. There's a comedy story somewhere in there. There's

Steve Kaplan 52:33
a comedy story everywhere. That's that's the whole point. Our lives are comedies, and we just have to be brave enough to tell them.

Dave Bullis 52:43
Yeah. And, you know, that's a very good point, Steve. And, you know, you know, and that's why I made sure to pick up your book, your your other book, The Hidden tools of comedy. By the way, just as a quick side note, the other two episodes of the of the podcast where you're on Steve, they do phenomenal numbers still to this day. Wow. Yeah. So so a year and a year and a half respectively, are still doing great numbers like a you know, when I when I pulled like a three month kind of window of the past downloads, you're always in there. Wow,

Steve Kaplan 53:15
that's great. Well, then we should let people know how to get in touch with me. Where can people find us Steve? People can find me at my website, which is www Kaplan with a K Kaplan comedy comedy with the C. Kaplan comedy or one word Kaplan comedy.com. Or they can email me at Steve at Kaplan comedy.com Or they can find me on Facebook at Kaplan comedy, and or or they can follow me on Twitter at SK comedy.

Dave Bullis 53:49
And I'm going to link to all that in the show notes. Everyone, including a link to Amazon to buy Steve's new book, The comic hero's journey. And his other book, by the way, the hidden quote, The Hidden tools of comedy. Did I say the hidden tools of comics,

Steve Kaplan 54:03
the hidden cool of comedy, which I like even better. I was like, Wait, it

Dave Bullis 54:07
didn't sound right. Wait, next printing.

Steve Kaplan 54:10
That's the that's going to be the new title. Wow. I

Dave Bullis 54:13
think I think I just gave you the next your next book, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 54:17
I'm working on that right now.

Dave Bullis 54:20
And I'm gonna link to everything we talked about in the show notes. Everyone at Dave bullas.com. Twitter, it's at dB podcast. Steve Kaplan, as always, man, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Dave. And be on the lookout for that Jack in the mail, by the way. Okay.

Steve Kaplan 54:35
Third time jacket. You know, there's there aren't a lot of us here.

Dave Bullis 54:39
There's not it's a rare club, Steve.

Steve Kaplan 54:41
Okay, I feel honored.

Dave Bullis 54:43
I have a good one, buddy. You too. Thanks, Dave!

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BPS 299: Hidden Tools of Comedy for Screenwriters with Steve Kaplan

May 17, 2023 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Steve Kaplan is a well-known comedy writer, teacher, and consultant. He is the author of the book “The Hidden Tools of Comedy: The Serious Business of Being Funny,” which is a popular resource for aspiring comedy writers. The book delves into the principles and techniques of comedy writing, offering insights and practical advice for creating humorous and engaging content.

Steve Kaplan has been teaching comedy writing and performance for many years, and his expertise has made him a sought-after consultant in the entertainment industry. He has worked with numerous writers, actors, and directors, helping them develop their comedic skills and enhance their comedic projects. Kaplan’s approach to comedy emphasizes the importance of understanding human nature, exploring characters’ desires and obstacles, and using specific comedic techniques to elicit laughter.

In addition to his book, Steve Kaplan has also conducted workshops, seminars, and lectures on comedy writing and has worked with various entertainment companies, including Disney, HBO, and DreamWorks Animation. He continues to be a respected figure in the field of comedy writing education.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:06
Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Jason Buff.

Jason Buff 1:35
Today we are talking with Steve Kaplan, author of the book, The Hidden tools of comedy. He's also the creator of the HBO workspace creator of the HBO new writers program. So we'll be talking to Steve in just a second, I really had a great talk with him. And we also add a lot of fun little clips and things in there so that you can really get a feel for the topics we're talking about. Here's my interview with Steve Kaplan. Did you immediately open up a theater company or how that worked?

Steve Kaplan 2:06
Well, I actually came to Los Angeles. First. We in New York we did, we were running this theater called Manhattan punch line. And we used to do a one act festival every year. So a bunch of people wanted to bring a number of one acts out to Los Angeles. And so that's what originally brought me out there they I helped them put up this evening of one acts. And I knew I was going to stay. So I came out I did a little theater, but then I tried to get a real, you know, big boy pants grownup job. And it took me a little bit of time. But eventually, I hooked up with Chris Albrecht at HBO. I pitched him an idea. And he ran with it. And first we did the HBO new Writers Project. And that ran for a couple of years. And then he started the Aspen Comedy Festival. And in support of that, with a couple of other people, we opened up a performance space in Los Angeles called the HBO workspace. It's now being run by Comedy Central. And what we did was we helped facilitate their search for comedians and comics. And at the same time, we were producing shows and showcasing people, both for HBO executives, there for them to take a look at and also just to kind of be an asset and a service to the community. So so that's what originally that's what I originally did in Los Angeles. And then I, I got involved in management, talent management, and I after doing that for a couple of years, I realized hey, I'm no good at this. Because it's just

Jason Buff 4:12
Did you tell your clients that one day you're like, by the way, actually,

Steve Kaplan 4:16
Eventually, the the clients that were left to me I told but it the terrible thing about I wasn't an agent, I was a manager. And the terrible thing about being a manager. Is that your Yeah, especially for me because I took everything very personally. So if somebody you said that this person is not good for this job. Oh, I don't like the script. I felt devastated. It was like it was like getting broken up with by girl every every every week. And when a when a client's leave left me it was really like getting broke up with the girl, especially when they started the conversation. You know, Steve, I like you as a person. So, I, when I was in my dating years, I used to hear that a lot. So I realized that that wasn't, that wasn't my MATIERE it was kind of a zig when I should have zagged. And along the way, I had run into a guy. And, and, and a funny, funny story he was, he was showcasing a show and, and I happened to leave the middle of the show because it was not very good. And amazingly enough, years later, he got in touch with me to take a look at a script. So I looked at the script, and I gave him notes. And again, I, I was more cruel than God. And amazingly enough, a couple of years later, he said to me, and this is when I was really I was, I was about to say this, this whole management thing was moved. And he said, I'm working with Robert McCain. And I think you could do for comedy what Robert McKee does her story. And he said, Have you ever taught comedy to writers and I said, Well, I started out teaching comedy to actors. At my theatre company, I and and I worked on a lot of scripts with a lot of playwrights and I, as I assume I can, this this will translate over to writers. And from there it from that little seed, a mighty oak grew.

Jason Buff 6:41
Now, I mean, it seems such a for for somebody who doesn't understand the concept of breaking up comedy and you know, seeing what's going on and why it's working and why people are, are laughing at something. What what was kind of like that first step into teaching comedy, what were the first kind of like obvious things that that you found that people needed to, to understand about comedy?

Steve Kaplan 7:08
Well, I mean, the way you should understand that the theatre company that I was running, that I started with two other actors. Manhattan punch line was a theater completely devoted to comedy. So that's all we did. We produced comedy plays we we showcased improv groups, Michael Patrick Kane, who later went on to write Sex in the City, and two Broke Girls was was was one of the leaders of this improv group along with dama Rivera, who's now a very well known stand up comic, we produce late night shows with standups, including Rita Rudner, Chang Anderson, who's now a very famous playwright. And so that's all we did. And the first thing I noticed about comedy, is that it's fucking hard. And, and it's, it's elusive, I would, I would be producing a show. And I would be standing in the back of the audience. And the show that was a riotous hit on Thursday, was met with crickets on Sunday. And the actors would come offstage. And they would say, What a terrible audience. But I was standing in the audience, and I wasn't terrible. And I was prepared to enjoy it. I might not laugh out loud as much as people who hadn't seen the show. But I, I started noticing differences. I started noticing that there was a different approach to the material, a slight differentiation in how the actors were meeting the material, night by night. And that's what started me on the, on the exploration that that became a 40 week master class, which then became a weekend workshop, which then became a book, which translated into Chinese because God knows you need some funnier Chinese.

Jason Buff 9:06
Well, you know, you've arrived. Yes.

Steve Kaplan 9:09
And it's going to be translated to French. So so now we can be rude when we're fun. Maybe I shouldn't say I believe

Jason Buff 9:17
Finally the French will have common.

Steve Kaplan 9:19
I'm super Yeah, really. I'm supposed to be supposed to be going to Paris in April. So So hopefully, they will listen to that part of the podcast.

Jason Buff 9:30
When we have a big French, you know, listening Exactly. So.

Steve Kaplan 9:34
So I started to notice that, that there were certain certain things that that were, for the most part, unrecognized, or, or not thought to be important or vital. And these became what I call the hidden tools of calm

Alex Ferrari 10:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 10:09
I mean, all the actors and the playwrights that I was working with, you know, they'd all gone to college or conservatory. And they all knew who to Hoggin and Stanislavski and great playwriting techniques. But but there were certain things that they, they were not aware of that I started to become aware of only because I was standing in the back. And oftentimes, I was directing a play. And I would start to notice that, that there were things that they did that decrease the comedy, and things that they did that increase the comedy. So, I mean, for instance, one of the things that kills comedies, if, if, you know, the actor knows too much, if the, you know, in acting classes is called anticipating, but what it really is, is the actor is too aware of what's happening, what's going on, too, in fact, too smart. So, so one of the things that, that I started to realize that were there, there were these principles that had not been taught anywhere, or, for the most part had not been taught, and that great comics and comedians either picked up or knew by by instinct, but that could be analyzed and and, and presented and taught to people who hadn't spent their entire childhoods listening to all the George Carlin and, and Richard Pryor albums, for instance. Right. And oh, and you would like to hear one of these?

Jason Buff 12:00
Yeah, that would be that would be helpful. Yes.

Steve Kaplan 12:02
Okay. Well, podcast, okay. So so there's, there's the, there's the dynamic of straight line wavy line, then that's, that's my terminology for it, okay. Which basically means that rather than a straight man and a comic, everybody thinks that, you know, if you see a duo, there's a comic, a funny person doing funny things, and a straight man who's just kind of, or a straight woman who's just kind of setting things up. And I came to realize that that dynamic is false, that it's not about a funny guy doing funny things and other people just kind of setting them up. It's really about somebody who is blind to the problem or creating the problem. And somebody who's struggling with the problem, but unable to solve it because they're, they're flawed, they're, they're just a flawed human being. When when, for instance, when John Cleese started Monty Python, he said that when they started Monty Python he thought that comedy was watching somebody do something funny. What they came to realize is comedy is watching somebody watch somebody do something funny

Actors 13:21
Yes, you know, it's a man's life in England man in screen that I'm gonna stop this sketch down anymore this I'm gonna stop the whole program. I thought it was supposed to be about teeth anyway. Why don't you do something about Jesus go I'm not alone. Not sleeping with that producer again.

Steve Kaplan 13:43
Comedy is the person who is kind of like us, struggling with some idiot. So that if you put Jerry Seinfeld and Kramer in a room, yes, it looks like Kramer is doing all the funny stuff. But without Jerry being a human being kind of perplexed and amused and confused by Kramer there's no comedy

Actors 14:15
Life on the Red Planet I can't eat I can't sleep. All I can see is that giant red sun in the shape of a chicken What did you go down to the Kenny Rogers and complain? They gave me the heave ho. You know I don't think that Kenny Rogers has any idea what's going on down there? What are you doing? That's tomato juice. That look like milk to me. Jerry my rods and cones are off. Alright, that's it. I gotta move in with you carry on. I don't know Kramer My concern is that living together after a while we might start to get on each other's nerves. Listen to me, I got a great idea now you're heavy sleeper right when we just switch apartments or I could sleep in the park. You could knock these walls down make it an EIGHT room luxury suite. Jerry, these are load bearing walls. They're not gonna come down. Yeah, that's no good. I'm gonna have to drive that place out of business. Are you gonna do that? Like we did in the 60s, taking it to the streets

Jason Buff 15:44
That's one of the things that I you know, mentioning that I always remember like Conan O'Brien one of the things that makes his skit so funny is having something completely insane happening. And then you don't really laugh until the camera cuts back to Conan's reaction to it.

Steve Kaplan 15:58
Exactly. So if you start if you watch sitcoms, good sitcoms, you'll notice that that the the comedy really the comedy is the comedy circuit is completed when there's a reaction to the craziness, not just the craziness. So So what seems to be the easy part, the straight man really is essential to comedy and if you watch a good SNL sketch, and there aren't you know, not every SNL sketch is good, but now sketch is the comedy is the human being in the equation. It's the it's the person who's being weirded out by the weird stuff that's happening. And it's only underscored by the idiot who's not paying any attention. Right. So bear with me just the other night on SNL. You know, Adam driver was on Yeah, I guess he didn't get such great reviews. Somebody said, Well, it's not Trump. SNL bad. But but there was a there was a there was a great Aladdin sketch, in which he's flying on the magic carpet. And, and the girl I can't remember, I think it's Cecily Strong, I think that's who it was. Is is on the magic carpet. And first a bird flies into her, and then a bomb drops in her because they're over Syria. And she keeps on getting weirded out. And then she keeps on trying to get back into the romantic moment. And that is so human. And meanwhile, Jeff, you know, Aladdin, as played by Adam Driver is completely oblivious. So that's the perfect example of straight line wavy line, somebody who's on a straight track, like, has blinders on, blind to the problem, or creating the problem and somebody else who's struggling with the problem, but because they're, they're what we call a non hero, unable to solve the problem and a non heroes another is another thing that that or principle that that we talk about, in which it's not about being a ridiculous person, a clown, you know, a silly clown. It's really just about somebody who lacks some, if not all the essential tools and skills with which to win. So sometimes the most basic skill with which to win is simply knowing so so one of the best directions you can ever give in comedy is don't know so much. Don't know. And what that means is that if something happens, don't, because you've read the script, and you know what's happening on this page, and what's going to happen on the next page, don't react like you've got it, I understand it, be confused. Let there be doubt. Doubt is, is the friend of comedy of being being unsure is the friend of comedy. And being sure, being certain about things is dramatic, and it just become being self reflective is a dramatic moment. And what we found out is that these principles aren't just here's how you be funny. It's really about here's how you can modulate the levels of comedy or drama in a scene. You want a character to be more dramatic, make them give them more skills, make them more empathetic, more sensitive, more kind, more knowing, make them make them less comic, take away those skills, create a comedy create a strong straight line wavy line relationship, create a dramatic moment have everybody make you know make eye contact and be empathetic with each other and and have them have them share the scene

Alex Ferrari 19:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 20:08
So those those kinds of things don't apply just to comedy. But you can actually modulate the amount of comedy and drama in a scene by increasing or decreasing these principles.

Jason Buff 20:20
When you talking about, you know, you would see one show, and then you'd see the same show and it wasn't funny. For whatever reason, were those improv shows? Or were they literally saying the same things

Steve Kaplan 20:30
In that in that case, what's what's happening is, the actors will suddenly begin to adjust their performance, so they look less ridiculous, because nobody in the world wants to look like an idiot. And so in a comedy, sometimes the characters are doing idiotic things. But the actors will suddenly, suddenly just make an adjustment so that it's a little bit more understandable, appropriate, logical and rational. And so sometimes, that's why a script is sometimes the funniest the first time the actors get around the table to read it. Because the actors aren't aware of, of how stupid they're going to sound when they say this line. Once they understand how stupid they sound, they either make it sound stupid, or, again, to put on a mask to protect themselves, or they make it sound just slightly less stupid. Here's an example. It's hard to it's hard to think of a film or TV show where you can see somebody anticipating, although they, they used to talk about how they would have to trick the Three Stooges, into not knowing when the pie is coming. They knew when the pie was coming, it wouldn't be funny. So what they would say is that, okay, we're gonna hit you on 312. And they would hit him on two, they could, and these guys were hit with 1000s of pies. So they would go to great lengths to try to fool them when the pie was coming. Because if they knew when the pie was coming, it wouldn't just be that they would flinch. They would suddenly react that, oh, I'm gonna get hit. But a better example is, is like, bad comedy. Like, I'm not a fan of late Jerry Lewis. I love early Jerry Lewis. If you watch early Jerry Lewis, like at home in the army, I think the first movie he made with Dean Martin, he is so innocent, so sweet, so unknowing, but later when when, you know, the French have told him he's a genius. He's, he just twists himself into a pretzel, as though as though to say, if you just looked at me, you wouldn't see an idiot, so I'm gonna have to pretend I'm an idiot. Alright. So you know, just think of any bad comedy, you know, something bad with Rob Schneider. Grown ups to in which people are acting are pretending to be idiots. And my point of view, what I always tell writers and actors is that you don't have to pretend we are idiots. I mean, we That's who we are. We're human beings. We're, you know, these stupid doofuses who are bumbling around this, this planet, you know, hurtling through space, you know, making up all sorts of reasons why? And we don't know, we just don't know. So. So the art of comedy is actually the art of telling the truth about what it's like to be human.

Jason Buff 23:41
It seems like the moment somebody is trying to intentionally be funny, or you see something like, you know, you can kind of see that. Oh, look, they're trying to be funny right now. Right? Is the moment that it just, it's not funny at all, you know, and you seem to see that in a lot of these comedies that they're just like, especially let's say whatever Kevin James movie, you know, it's like, Okay, we're gonna have this wacky thing and then let's do all these situations where Oh, he's gonna be put into this situation in that situation. And it's just like, There's nothing funny about it. Maybe for like a five year old, but it just doesn't doesn't work.

Steve Kaplan 24:15
Well, I haven't seen Paul Blart Mall Cop two. I

Jason Buff 24:21
I have seen it.

Steve Kaplan 24:23
You have seen it? Yeah. Was it great?

Jason Buff 24:26
It was so good. No, I mean, it's like I love I love watching bad movies as well as good movies because you get to kind of like put it together and you know, I mean, it just it has a couple of moments but I

Steve Kaplan 24:40
Have not seen it. I've seen hitch

Jason Buff 24:44
I've seen hitch yes with

Steve Kaplan 24:46
What's the difference in Kevin James between hitch and Paul Blart Mall Cop two.

Jason Buff 24:53
He's got a slight accent and fake teeth. I think is the only difference.

Steve Kaplan 24:59
That's the Only difference?

Jason Buff 25:01
Well, I don't really remember hitch that. Well, he wasn't I mean,

Steve Kaplan 25:04
He plays this sweaty guy who wants to marry who wants to get with a supermodel? Right? I can't What I remember about hitch, okay, is that he was recognizable. He was like, one of us. Okay. And he was a little clumsy. But he but he wasn't such an exaggerated clown that he was no longer recognizable as human. Right? Whereas, I'm guessing in Mall Cop two, he does things that no, no sentient human being would do. Somebody thought, Wouldn't it be funny if,

Jason Buff 25:48
Right! Yeah, well, you know, most of the movies that, you know, and a lot of things all these situations happen that aren't that really aren't, you know, believable. So I think you're kind of watching it like, oh, that's kind of funny or whatever. But you don't, you're not brought into the story. You don't actually believe any of these characters are real. Right? You know,

Steve Kaplan 26:07
So if you look at a movie like the other guys with Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg. There's a moment in which in which they're walking away from a store and the store explodes. And they're on the ground and willpower is going it hurts them. And that's the essence of comedies noticing what's around you, and being and being aware of the inconsistencies, the absurdities what Dorothy Parker called having a sharp eye and a wild mind

Actors 26:44
Was closed at 11am on a Tuesday Oh, is a shithole. Love bombs walkaway movies without footsy when it explodes behind them, there's no word are called Fulshear when they flew the Millennium Falcon outside of the Deathstar, that was followed by the explosion. That was bullshit. Don't you know Star Wars that was? There's no way I don't have soft tissue. I just want to go somewhere and breastfeed right now.

Steve Kaplan 27:34
So so when a comment comes out in a club and says, and says, Hey, you in the front row and start to make a comment. That's the essence of comedy, which is noticing what's around you and not taking it for granted. And seeing the absurdity in it, and share and being confused by it. Not necessarily knowing all about it and being a dick about it. But but just kind of commenting on it in a way that both expresses what you feel and also questions it and doesn't, doesn't quite know what the answer is. Which is why I comic is what about that? What's the deal with? It's a question. It's not a statement. Once you're making statements. You're, you're you're a politician. A question is, as a comedian, I so yeah,

Jason Buff 28:26
I mean, what what do you think is? I mean, do you feel like, for example, when I'm writing I, you know, I'm also a writer.

Steve Kaplan 28:35
A lot of things great, by the way thing, I love it golden

Jason Buff 28:39
The comedy for me, like I grew up, always seeing things as being comic, you know, and when I was in as early as I can remember, I would be in just situations and just start laughing. And people would even get mad at me because I would talk into somebody and just all their little quirks and things would just like something would come out of that. And I'd start laughing and they'd be like, Well, what's so funny, you know, and medication get mad at me. Yeah, well, thank God. And when I when I write, it's like, it's impossible, even if I mean, the stuff that I write is more kind of character driven stuff. But it's the humor just comes out of it. It's like, I'm not even trying. And then once you have once you really feel a character on the page, living and breathing, just the humor just comes out of it without even trying to do anything, just their actions. And I've never looked into it deeper to try and dissect why it's funny, but it just seems like that. It's like, I don't even know why it's funny. But it's funny, the when you have like a real character, and they do something that you're just like, oh, that's, you know, that's that character. You know, that's how they do stuff.

Steve Kaplan 29:37
Well, in the course, what I say is that the the value of the course is is not to take what you do and change it entirely. It's not it's not a methodology. It's not. Here's how you make the sausage but it's it's a toolbox and you use tools when something is broken. So if you're writing and everything's working, great.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
We'll be right back after a word from our spot. answer. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 30:06
Don't look at it don't say, Well, what is Blake Snyder? And, and and Robert McKee and Steve Kaplan, no, just keep going. But when there's a scene that doesn't work, that's when you can use a tool. That's when you can try to figure out what we teach is what comedy is, how it works, why it works, what's going on, when it's not working, and what can you do about it? So, when you if you haven't, and it's not working, then you have some tools to try to figure out. Any you want the scene to be comic. That's when you can figure out well, what could I do here? Can I can I use a metaphorical relationship? Can I is should there be a straight line wavy line relationship?

Jason Buff 30:45
Now when you look at somebody like Judd Apatow and I just recently watched again, this is 40. It just seems like so much of that we're always kind of riding this line between what's kind of going too far what's going to be something too and you know, with a lot of the comedy podcasts to the comedy is not coming out of people trying to be funny. It's coming out of really difficult situations and people you know, fighting about things and whatever. What how do you look at that kind of comedy versus all these kind of stupid slapstick kind of, you know, silly call.

Steve Kaplan 31:18
I mean, my favorite comedies are the comedies that tell the truth about about people now it could You could tell the truth in a fantastical situation. like Groundhog Day, one of my favorite comedies, but one of my other favorite comedies his 40 Year Old Virgin, and one of the reasons I love 40 Year Old Virgin is because they don't make him a ridiculous character. You know, after the poker game, and yeah, he's kind of ridiculous. He's he's riding a bike. He's never he's, he's, he's, you know, he's frozen in this adolescence. But after the poker game, he's humiliated.

Actors 31:52
Answer this question. Are you a virgin? Are you a virgin? Yeah, not since I was 10. It all makes sense. You're a virgin. I am. Shut up. How's that happened? He's a fucking noob it that makes so much sense. Man. You guys are hilarious. To my Don't be mean. I'm not being mean. I'm not I'm trying to say I want to get you laid. Dude, I understand what's going on guys. So up your asses Come on, man. You can do better than that it's gonna be fine. They don't even remember. Those guys are cool.

Steve Kaplan 32:56
And you feel for him? It's not like I it's not like some I don't know, Rob Schneider. I assume he's a very talented guy. I'm just using. Rob, if you're listening to this, I'm just using you as kind of an icon of not good comedy. Without

Jason Buff 33:10
Rob. This is I don't know. For me, Rob. So Steve.

Steve Kaplan 33:15
So I mean, they're not just making him some idiot there humanizing him. And he goes, he he writes home. He's he has this primal scream. And it's so in touch with true emotions, what we would all be going through. And then he goes back into work. And he thinks maybe I'll just maybe they won't remember it. They say hi, how you doing? And all of a sudden everybody's ragging on him. And, yo, let's get the Birkin laid. And he score. And the thing that made me love the movie was was Paul Rudd running after him trying to help them. Right. Human sweet. Not ridiculous. So they never, you know, yes, there are some outlandish, very, very broad things in that movie. But for the most part, it's grounded in in a human condition in the in, in what would happen to us. Chris Rock was talking about the his evolution as as a filmmaker, and he was talking about that, that he's learned a lot from Louis C. K. And then now whereas in the past, he would go for any job possible. But now, especially with his I can't remember the name of the movie five things are, yeah, top five. That he basically said put somebody in a situation and say what would they do now? To me, that's the best way to develop a comic premise is you come up with a with a fantastic premise, something that's impossible or implausible and then put in you know, are typical comic comedy characters and then see what would they do now? What would happen now? And develop it? Like you say, through character as opposed to plot?

Jason Buff 35:12
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, going back to the 40 year 40 Year Old Virgin, one of the things that people forget about that is if you go later in the film, once his relationship with Catherine Keener develops, it actually becomes very, like, you know, it's still comic and everything, but it's more like, it's a real heartwarming story, you know, and he's, you know, showing the dealing with the daughter and all that stuff. You know what I mean? I love I love that scene where he's like, you know, I speak sarcasm too. And he's got, you know, he does a magic trick. And she's like, you walk around with an ear. You know, I mean, I love those scenes, but they're not like, you know, they're more of like a drama. You know, it's like a real story.

Steve Kaplan 35:51
It's, and, and because they because they don't feel the need to do a joke, or a bit every 10 seconds. The A favorite scene of mine is when he takes the daughter to the Planned Parenthood, the the, the clinic.

Actors 36:10
Now you're all here because you're interested in obtaining birth control. Any questions? Here's a cute story. I came home the other day, and he is with his girlfriend in my marital bed, doing things that are illegal in Alabama sex acts, right? Things that my wife won't do. Okay. Did you have a question? How do I get my wife to do that? Does anybody else have a question? My daughter is, for lack of a better word, dumb. How do I stop her menstrual cycle? Do you want her to stop having a menstrual cycle? I want to stop it maybe just for a few years? Yeah, I don't think that's a good idea. Does anybody else have a question? I have? I have a question. I think some of the people here might be sexually inexperienced. Is it true that if you don't use it, you lose it? Is that a serious question? No, it wasn't. Now, there are a lot of activities that you can engage in without having sex that are both fun and safe. What sort of activities I think everybody wants to know about the activities. Well, instead of having intercourse, you could have outer course. Outer course. Oh, what's that? Yeah. What is that? Well, outer course is anything that isn't vaginal intercourse. Prefer vaginal intercourse. You really does. Now there are ways of having sex without intercourse. Let's see there are things like body rubbing or dry humping. You could try home. There's masturbation. Masturbation, play with yourself. mutual masturbation play with a friend deep kissing. There's erotic massage. Oh, that sounds like it would be nice oral sex play. Sounds like my Friday night. Shut up. Set. We went to temple. Okay. Are there any virgins here who are thinking about having sex for the first time? So you're a virgin. I tap that. Oh, yeah, you tap that set? What do you think you're cool with your little jew fro? We don't say tap that. What? Are you talking about? Set? You know what I'm a virgin to were virgins to ya know, you know, and it's, it's it's a personal choice and Okay, um, I can't listen to any more of this because it's making me sick. So by you can get this information on your website. Oh, yes. Thanks. Nice meeting everybody. Any other questions? Give me extra large condoms. Set you got a tiny penis.

Steve Kaplan 38:45
And he's asking more questions than anybody else. But then he's sitting around all these people all these all the you know, the the kid who thinks he's hot stuff. And and the guy who just wants his daughter to be here, can we? Can we make sure that she doesn't have any sex till she's 35. And then on the drive home? The daughter just turns to him and says you're a virgin. Right? And he's and rather than pretending. Which which some, some script teachers will teach will tell you that the key to comedy is deception. And, you know, that's such a i Yeah, sometimes but, but if you take that to its logical, illogical, you know, to its logical conclusion. You never tell anybody the truth. And that's exhausting. It's exhausting. And what I love about the scene is he just says, Yeah, but don't tell your mom. Okay. Well, what are you going to do it while I'm getting around to it? It's so I keep on going back to that word. It's human. It's tells the truth about the human condition.

Alex Ferrari 39:59
We'll be right back. back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 40:08
Drama helps us dream about what we could be. But comedy helps us live with who we are. Comedy is the truth. Drama is the exaggeration. Drama is the idea of idealization of life wood that we were as tortured and as sensitive and as poetic and as intellectual as Hamlet. Right? We're watching Hamlet. Oh, what he's going through. Have you ever seen a production of Hamlet?

Jason Buff 40:34
I've seen the movies.

Steve Kaplan 40:38
Have you ever seen in the movie? Did Hamlet fart?

Jason Buff 40:41
Not in the ones I saw? I know.

Steve Kaplan 40:43
So what would you what do you think would happen if Hamlet's going to be or not to be?

Jason Buff 40:49
I probably would enjoy it a lot more.

Steve Kaplan 40:51
And but yet people do fart, right? Yeah. So so. But by making him more human, you make it immediately more complex. So I hate comedies that pretend. Or let me let me put it this way. I hate comedies, where every 10 seconds they're going, Wouldn't it be funny if this happened? Wouldn't it be funny if that happened? Because I'm more interested in what would happen if this really happened to these characters? What would they do? What would all these different characters do, because you don't have to invent shit, you don't have to make shit up, put three people in a room, they're gonna go in three different directions, half the time, they're gonna run into each other, because that's who human beings are. So just let them let them deal with the situation in their own way. If you if you haven't duplicated characters, you're going to create your conflict and your obstacles just because of the characters you have on screen or on stage. In that situation, I do a, an experiment. In my workshops, we call it the classic, the classic problem of the three lawyers, I have three people come up, I make sure that they're not actors or improvisers, I asked for writers who have never performed. And I tell them, they're all three lawyers, and that the most important case of their careers began in a courthouse, four blocks away five minutes ago. And I say that, through that door, whatever room that we're in whatever meeting room or banquet room we're in, I say through that door is is the cord has four blocks away, you're five minutes late, and then I then I have two of them leave. And I tell each one separately, that for some crazy reason, they have to be the second person out the door. I'll do that for everyone. I'll say, Listen, this is gonna be I'm going to give everybody something different. But for you, I just want you to know that for some crazy reason, you have to be the second person out the door. And then I'll bring all three of them back and I'll say start. And what will happen is, most times that they'll run to the door, and they'll stop. And the audience of course knows what's happening. And there there will be this great dance of trying to figure out how to get how to be the second person out the door if they're all trying to leave. And then I'll usually say to shout out you have you have the permission to win. In which case, I usually put two big guys and a small girl in the group. You see you're anticipating, right? Yeah, I'll say you I give you the permission to win. And usually one of the big guys will pick up the small girl throw her out, and then he'll be the second guy to go. And it's usually a very funny scene in a when I did this at DreamWorks once with three animators who have never performed. The one animator was this tall, skinny guy. And the two guys tried to throw him out of the room. And he put one foot on one side of the door and one foot on the other side of the door. And he was like, completely horizontal. It was it was amazing. I've never seen that before. And my point is that like a kid you don't need you don't need clever dialogue. You don't even need you don't need directors, you don't even need writers you just need characters humans in a situation with a with something unusual or not easy and see what happens and use and half the times more than half the time comedy work will occur.

Jason Buff 44:27
Now you raised an important important topic about characters and having two characters interacting. Do you feel like you need to have for example, one guy who's going to be the straight man, one guy who's going to be the, the, you know, the comic partner, whatever you want to say. I mean, when you're when you're creating comic moments, do you have to have that sort of conflict between your characters?

Steve Kaplan 44:49
When when you're talking about characters you don't it's not so much the conflict it's it's you want our typical character. If you think about any committee of truth, you would have the letters Holdeman and Wiley, tricky, clever servant, the young, innocent the fool. And you, you just make sure that you have those are typical types in in your story. I mean, who is the think of just in terms of Winnie the Pooh, who's your Tigger who's your er, you know who who's your who's your poo? Who's the tin man who, you know, this is Chris south who you know who talks about, you know, the Wizard of Oz method of character development. And who's the tin man who's the Scarecrow? Who's the who's the lion, the child, the the animal? The the thinker, so yeah, you're not no one is a straight man, Paul Rudd, is not a straight man in 40 Year Old Virgin, although he's more the voice of reason than anybody else. But he's got his own thing. Because he's pining for Mindy Kaling and he's this he's this romantic, who's who's all fucked up in his head. So So I don't think that the whole idea that there's a straight man is, again, is is a misnomer. And I think I think a false dynamic. If you take a look at the other guys, at any one moment, one of them is insane. And the other one is sane, but not quite knowing what to do in this situation. When Will Ferrell brings Mark Wahlberg home? He's married to some hottie, and all Mark Wahlberg can say Is she really your wife?

Actors 46:37
Hi. Hi. It must be Terry. I'm sorry. I've been hiding honey, but this dinner was tricky. For you. I'm Dr. Sheila gamble his wife wants seriously who is that? His old lady sweetie. It's a workstation. Got it? You come in here. Dress like a hobo. This distract? I know you're working. I'm so sorry. Come on. Seriously, come on. What? Who is that? See all the COBOL Jane. Get over here. No, no, no. Okay. Look, they're not all first round picks. Okay, come on. Are you gonna tell me who that is? You really are and why? I know. People are shocked because he's Episcopalian and I'm Catholic, but somehow it works. Are you going to change? I already did. It's no big deal. You look really really nice. Terry. You don't to be polite. Okay. She looks kind of shitty on speak to her like that. Alan. Look, if I put that in my Cosmo fashion app, you probably get a d minus Alan and his apps. He loves him. Yeah, he's designed three of his own. One of them. Can you tell one of them? You can take a picture of anybody's face. And I'll tell you what the back of his head looks like. Face back face back. Got some horrible reviews coming out of the gate. It's gonna hit it's gonna catch. Why are you with Alan? I mean, that's not what I meant. I meant. How did you guys meet? It's a really typical how we met story, Terry, you're gonna be bored by it. I was a dancer for the next while finishing my residency at Columbia hospital. Alan came into the ER with poison ivy on his rectum. Needless to say, I fell for him immediately. It's funny. It's like It's like a scene from that one movie. I always forget the name of it. With Meg Ryan. I don't remember a movie when Meg Ryan me to go with poison ivy. I think of it. So what about you, Terry? Do you have a girl? I did? Yeah. I suppose to get married. But she back down. It's complicated. Terry shot Derek Jeter Shut up. Ellen. This is before that's okay. Ah, she's got mail. That's the name of the honey. Tom Hanks. And Meg Ryan. He's gonna poison ivy with us. Yeah, yeah, way up there. Well, Terry, can't thank you enough for coming by what a what a wonderful, lovely evening. Thank you. So so nice meeting you, too. My pleasure. Thank you. Remember, all I ask of you is you don't let him get hurt Terry. She tells me that every day before I leave, I do. I come downstairs and I make him his fresh cut strawberries. And I say Listen, my little sugar balls. Whatever you do today, you just don't get hurt. Every morning, and then I show on my breast and I say these. These are waiting for you when you get back home. You know, Terry they're not the biggest breasts he's ever seen. But man are not by a longshot perky. And they are firm and they're yours. They're a nice lady. Thank you for coming. Detectives voice and gamble. Detectives why to gamble over. Founder red press right trying to vote for Ralph Nader. Hey, sugar boss. This is gonna be fingerprints in that car. And tomorrow. We're going to run those fingerprints through the system. If we get hit key is going to heat up faster than a junky spoon. You do one thing when you wake up tomorrow. Bring it bring it in. I goodnight. Thank you, Sheila. By Terry i Sheila. I'll never forget tonight by Terry. All right now Whatever go aside by Sheila sanitary I, Sheila.

Alex Ferrari 50:07
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 50:19
And it's hysterical because one of them at any moment is aware of what's happening around them without having the complete answer of what to do about it.

Jason Buff 50:31
One of the things I wanted to talk about too, is going back through the history and talking about somebody like Buster Keaton. So for him, he's always been kind of an example for me, of somebody for whom like, for example, you know, what happened with the silent films is he was hugely popular up there with Chaplin and everything. And the moment he was asked to speak, it changed the dynamic of his comedy.

Steve Kaplan 50:54
Well, that'd be the Great Stone Face and speak at the same time.

Jason Buff 50:58
Right! So I was curious about if you, you know, went into any sort of thing like that, that people have to be in the right kind of comedy for their kind of personality or whatever.

Steve Kaplan 51:08
Oh, well, we do talk about the history of comedy, just in terms just in terms of the development of western comedy that comes from these are typical characters, then that, you know, was kind of codified in the committee, but really goes back all the way to the Greeks, where the the, the new Greek comedy was all about our typical characters. Cowardly braggart soldiers, lecherous old man or miserly old men. And you see, you see these characters in Shakespeare? You see them in more gear, you see them on sitcoms, Who's the idiot who's the the wisecracker? Who's the, the, the space cadet? I mean, that's, I've just described friends. So, so what you what you want it what you what you want to know, Is that is that these are typical characters appear and reappear and reappear in dozens of movies. And they, they're there for a reason. Because of those. They embody certain aspects of the human condition, personified. And it's a good idea to have a good mix of them. Do you need all of the all of the different character types? No. But when I read scripts, sometimes I'll say you have three, three best friends, you really need three best friends, and they're all exactly the same. Maybe, maybe one should be different. Or maybe they should, maybe they should be different. For instance, here's, here's a, we do a comic premise exercise, where, where we have, we break people up into groups, and they, they work on common premises. So let me give you a premise. It's not a great movie. But this is something that actually that a group actually came up with. So here's the premise of this comedy movie. A college football team discovers that the only time that they can win is when they get the nerd laid. Now that's already a good start for premise because it made you giggle. So tell me who's in this movie?

Jason Buff 53:26
Well, you've got the jock, you've got the best friend.

Steve Kaplan 53:29
Excuse me. What position is the jock? Quarterback? I guess quarterback? Who are his friends on the team?

Jason Buff 53:34
You got the big, fat guy.

Steve Kaplan 53:38
Okay, well, I mean, who else?

Jason Buff 53:40
See, but I don't know anything about football.

Steve Kaplan 53:43
You're already there. Okay, you have the linemen and who else should be there? Is a big fat guy who's who's the other friend.

Jason Buff 53:50
Gotta have the skinny guy.

Steve Kaplan 53:51
That's okay. This week. Okay, who? So you don't know anything about football, but, but the. The team can only win when they get the nerd late. So who else needs to be there?

Jason Buff 54:02
Well, you got to have your nerd. You're the nerd. Okay. You got to have the most attractive girl in the school.

Steve Kaplan 54:07
What position what what does she do? cheerleader of course cheerleader and then who's the who's the then there's a coach. Right? Okay. Sure. Okay. And how is the cheerleader connected to the coach? Daughter, daughter. Okay. Because one of the things that mo year teaches us is that comedies a closed universe because the old guy who's wandering around, enact one always turns out to be the uncle of the two orphans in Act five. So you have the quarterback, the linebacker, the wide receiver, that's the skinny guy, the nerd the cheerleader, the coach. Okay, nerd Steve Carell. Quarterback Paul Rudd. Line, big lineman Seth Rogen skinny guys, Romany? Malco cheerleader a young Catherine Keener Coach James, just give me the cast, a 40 year old virgin there's a reason Why these, these? These are typical characters appear and reappear and reappear because they tell stories. You can tell any story you want. If you have all the right characters there.

Jason Buff 55:13
That was pretty mind blowing. I like that was our TED Talk moment for the conversation.

Steve Kaplan 55:18
Well, top head tilted, I applied. They haven't gotten. I thought that would be a great TED Talk.

Jason Buff 55:24
Well, they listen to this. So you know, just just wait. It'll happen. So Ted listens, as well as the French. Yes. And Rob Schneider, and Rob Shire. Rob.

Steve Kaplan 55:34
I love that you copy guy that was the best thing on SNL.

Jason Buff 55:42
So I want to talk for a second also about Ben Stiller. Because you mentioned Ben Stiller in your book. And one of the things that I have skimmed the book, unfortunately, my, my credit card got had some problems at Amazon. So I had to go back and change some things and then buy it again. And then I was cut the clock was against me. So I'm gonna, yes. But I do a lot of my stuff is from other podcasts and from, you know, YouTube. So luckily, there's a wealth of knowledge out there. Okay. So if any of my questions sound exactly the same as some other people?

Steve Kaplan 56:20
Oh, no, no, I don't. I don't think I ever insulted as many people on other podcasts as I have on yours.

Jason Buff 56:27
I am honored. Thank you. Well, I wanted to talk about Ben Stiller for a second because, you know, you talk about him. And one of the things that I remember when Ben was, you know, my buddy Ben, first kind of was getting popularity was that the kind of comedy that he was doing? was so like, not obvious, I guess you could say it was just he was so much the character and so uncomfortable. And so kind of, you know, different than what I had seen before. And there probably been other people who have done that kind of comedy, you know, like, There's Something About Mary and stuff like that. But I just for some reason that just stayed in my mind is that being, you know, Why is that funny? Why is what he's doing funny. And you know, why is just his nervousness or his like being in that situation, making me laugh, and I had never really felt like that with anybody else. You know what I mean?

Steve Kaplan 57:24
Well, I think because one of the things that he does well, now he's a smart guy, right? I mean, he had his own sketch show on Fox, when he was in his 20s. He's a smart guy, but he lets himself be seen as less than smart. Very well. In There's Something About Mary. He's about to go on a date with Mary and Chris Elliott's telling him, have you pulled pulled the pot? Have you spank the monkey? Have you flogged the dolphin? And rather than Ben Stiller going, What are you talking about? He goes, ha, ha, and what are great comedy lines, because they see something they're just not quite sure what they're seeing. And he lets himself be tucked into, you know, masturbating just just before the date. And, and it's, it's ridiculous. It's, you know, it's it's gross out humor, but there's something very vulnerable. And, and, and, and not in charge. That that I think appeals to all of us because that's how we feel we feel that we're not completely in charge that we're that we're less than, and he embodies less than in a very unforced way. He doesn't pretend to be less than he just is. There's one of my favorite moments in There's Something About Mary is when they do the flashback, and he's about to ask, take Mary out to the prom, and it's got these great braces on and he's wearing this taupe tuxedo goes to the door. And David Keith, who I believe is playing with dad comes out David Keith is an African American. Mary, of course is Cameron Diaz who's not African American. So he you know, Ben Stiller, looks at David Keith looks up at the door number am I in the right place? Usually that gets a laugh just by not being sure. And then David Keith says she's already gone to the gun to the prom with Woogie goes we'll get ya Woogie. And then, and you can't really see this over a podcast but I'm kind of grinning. Sadly again, okay. And I usually when I do my workshops, by the way, I have a workshop coming up at the end of January, which we'll talk about hopefully at the end of the podcast. I usually freeze frame on that

Alex Ferrari 1:00:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 1:00:09
And I say, if the movie ended there hasn't has any broken your heart. That's the essence of comedy, is the essence of comedy is not to pretend that there's no pain. It's all silliness. The essence of comedy is we're always in pain in life is a painful, painful deal. How are we going to deal with it? What are we going to do? The comedian is the courageous person who gets up in front of a group of strangers and admits to being human and, and basically says, you know, gives us shrug and says, you'll live. It's tough, you get kicked, but you'll live. And that's a very life affirming way of looking at the world.

Jason Buff 1:00:50
So that was written as a drama, and not a comedy.

Steve Kaplan 1:00:54
Well, if it was written as a drama, he wouldn't be an idiot, he would know more. He would be good looking, he wouldn't be wearing braces. Like I said, if it was a drama, he would be something that we would aspire to. As opposed to something who we can recognize as us.

Jason Buff 1:01:12
Looking at movie that I always saw

Steve Kaplan 1:01:15
Maze Runner or Virgin. Those kids are gorgeous. You know, in the Apocalypse, are we all gonna look that good? I mean, of course, am I gonna have tap teeth? You know, in a dystopian future I wish that would be great. Survive.

Jason Buff 1:01:38
One of my favorite Ben Stiller performances is in Tropic Thunder. Oh, my fit one of my favorite movies when he is you know, captured and they make him reenact his character. Simple track. I'll check that, to me is like the pinnacle of his his career.

Steve Kaplan 1:01:55
But, but the moment that I love is when he and Robert Downey had the conversation about why he didn't get the Oscar.

Actors 1:02:02
Yeah, exactly. You know, there were times when I was doing jack that I actually felt retarded like really retarded. I mean, I brush my teeth retarded. I robust retarded in a weird way. I had to sort of just free myself up to believe that it was okay to be stupid or dumb to be more. Yeah, to be more radical. Exactly. To be more an imbecile. Not the dumbest motherfucker that ever lived. When I was playing the character when he was secure, and I mean as Jack, Jack, stupid ass Jack, trying to come back from that. In a weird way. It was almost like I had to sort of fool my mind into believing that it wasn't retarded. And by the end of the whole thing, I was like, wait a minute, you know, I flush so much out how am I going to jumpstart it? I think it was just like, yeah, right. He was fighting and bathtubs laughing Yeah, so. Yeah. But simple. Jack thought he was smart. But rather than thinking was retarded, so you can't afford to play retarded. being smarter. Playing a guy who ain't smart but thinks he is. That's tricky. Tricky. Is that working mercury? is high science men's art form. Yeah, you notice that's what we do right? Yeah, yeah. Hats off of going. Especially no not academies about issue about what this series you don't know. Everybody knows you never go full retard. What do you mean? Check it out. Dustin Hoffman. Rayman Looper turned appetite is not returning. Cat to picture you caught autistic show. Now. Tom Hanks Forrest Gump. Hello. Yes, we thought it may be braces on today. But he charmed the pants off next to them. They want to ping pong competition that ever taught him. He was goddamn war hero. You know when he retired war heroes. You went full return. Never go full retard. You don't but yeah, Sean Penn 2001 Is the memo word for retired, went home.

Steve Kaplan 1:04:12
And that's such a beautiful moment because it's the first moment in the film where they're really just relating to each other and they're connecting and they're not. They've left their their rivalries go and and Robert Downey goes You don't know. Todd, you went full time. So halftime, you can't go pull Todd. Great. Great. I mean, those those human simple human moments where people share what makes them vulnerable, what makes them silly, what makes them lost? What makes them human? And that's that's why in terms of straight line, wavy line. You You know Mark is funny, but you can't have Mark without Mindy. You guys Have a human being in the equation at every moment. So even your ciliates character can have a moment where they're human. And they're having a human experience while everybody else is acting crazy around them. And that's why the division a funny guy, and straight man is incorrect because everybody gets to has a chance to be funny. Everybody has a chance to be, you know, the same one.

Jason Buff 1:05:29
Well, tell me if you had the same feeling as I did, but watching that if you've got Robert Downey Jr. You've got Ben Stiller, and then you've got Jack Black and Jack Black to me. Like, most of the stuff that he did in the film kind of fell flat though. I don't know how you you kind of perceive that but just seemed like one more person there that like didn't necessarily, like add to it. I don't know.

Steve Kaplan 1:05:50
Well, I mean, I can see that point of view. I'm not going to argue that he's the best thing in the film, but he's there because you needed a primal character. Okay, again, we go we go back to, to our typical characters, the archetypes that come Madea, you have your clever, tricky servant. That's Robert Downey Jr. You have your nerdy guy, that's Jay bearish owl, you have your idiot, that's your full yet that's That's Ben Stiller, then you have your primal character, you know, and he's got he's got primal needs, I need I need my drugs. And, and added that next comes comes the comes this disjointed, dysfunctional family that all comedy aspires to all comedy, especially teller comedy, aspires to create dysfunction, large dysfunctional families that that we can relate to, and in some way, enjoy being with because they remind us of our dysfunctional families only we don't have to be with them that much. So So yeah, so is. You know, is that Oscar? Oscar nominated performance? I'm not sure. But I see that I see the use for him. Because you need that unbridled energy. Now, is that unbridled energy the best it could be? I don't know. I wasn't crazy about the bat, the blonde buzzcut. But, you know, I mean, I was just wondering if there was something we were not available? Right. I mean, that would, that would be John Belushi or John Candy or Chris Farley. That would be their role. That's what they would be there for. And maybe they would have brought a little bit more what I call the shrimp factor, you know, so shrimp was the stooge that made you care. So that's what John Candy and Chris Farley would do, they would make you care. And Jack Black, I guess just make you care that much, because Jack Black, if I'm going to analyze it, from your point of view, Jack Black, gave was too much of performance that he was outside of, as opposed to owning it. He wasn't sharing his addiction, he was making this character's addiction, the focus, and when you distance yourself from your character, and you distance yourself from the audience, there's there's that distancing factor that doesn't work for some people. In 500 BC, the first comedy written, the actor comes out and talks to the audience directly in a different way than they did in Greek tragedy. There's a connection that comics make with their audience. It's an actor centric art. And it's about telling the truth about what's happening right in front of all of us. I'm an actor, I'm on stage. You're watching me, let's go. And so there's truth there. And so you might be, you might be reacting to the fact that he wasn't as connected and as truthful as the other actors. That's my guess. But it didn't bother me as much. But I can see from your point of taking a look, from your perspective, I can see what you're talking about. Yeah,

Jason Buff 1:09:10
I mean, it just kind of fell flat. Sometimes I'm going to

Steve Kaplan 1:09:13
He just was he fucking sucks.

Jason Buff 1:09:17
I mean, it's kind of like late Jerry Lewis. Like you're saying, it just felt like a performance, you know, anyway, right. I'll get off that. All right. We're at about an hour. I wanted to make sure that you discuss the things that are coming up with you and how people can get in touch and sign up for your classes. You want to talk about that a little bit. Yeah,

Steve Kaplan 1:09:37
I'm Libra. I'm lonely. I like long walk it with one walk on the beach. No, no, no, no, I'm happily married. But you can you can tweet me at at SK comedy. That's s k comedy. Comedy with a C because I'm not a hack. I don't do that comedy K thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:00
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Steve Kaplan 1:10:10
My website is Kaplancomedy.com one word.com. And you can email me at Steve at Kaplancomedy.com. And right now, in January 30 and 31st in Los Angeles, we're having a workshop at the Marriott Burbank, and you can register for it online. And if you're in Ireland, we're going to be in Ireland in early June, London the week later, I think we're going to be in Paris in April. And we're going to be in Denver in October. And you should read my book, The Hidden tools of comedy. We it's translated into Russian, Chinese and French but for you for the indie film Academy podcast, listeners, we have it for you in English. And it's available. It's available on on Kindle, you can download it but make sure that your credit card doesn't get screwed up like Jason's and and it's also available through Amazon. And you can also buy it on our website for an autographed copy.

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